# Which Enneagram types/instincts are more likely to be nationalistic (or SJWs)?



## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

I have replaced "nationalistic" with "conservative" and "cosmopolitan" with "liberal" because those terms are somewhat outdated in contemporary politics. But I digress.

This isn't a subject that has been studied in much depth, so excuse me if I share my personal observations from around the forum (and outside it) with you. Feel free to chime in if you agree/disagree.

+ Nationalistic:
Heart triad (2, 3, 4)
Sexual instinct first
High in conscientiousness

+ SJW/feminist: 
Head triad (5, 6, 7)
Sexual instinct last
Low in conscientiousness

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I don't know exactly why certain Enneagram types are over-represented in contemporary political movements, but it is hard to deny that they are. I have spent a good deal of the last 24 hours arguing against feminism and morality of casual sex detached from emotional commitment, and some patterns have been very clear.

The core values of the heart types are
2 - Love
3 - Status
4 - Authenticity

Whereas the core values of the head types are
5 - Knowledge
6 - Security
7 - Freedom

If we project these towards a particular instinct (let's say SO head vs SX heart), we get

SX 2 - To be whole I must attract a partner, I must be loving to do this 
SX 3 - To be whole I must attract a partner, I must have high status to do this
SX 4 - To be whole I must attract a partner, I must be unique/authentic to do this

SO 5 - To be whole I must reform society, I must be knowledgeable to do this
SO 6 - To be whole I must reform society, I must be secure to do this
SO 7 - To be whole I must reform society, I must have freedom to do this

It should be easy to appreciate how the instincts shape one's priorities in life. The effect of an individual Enneagram type is more subtle but still important. For example, Enneagram 4 (my type) fears the status quo, being normal and "boring". To date, I have not encountered any E4s on the forum who are sympathetic to SJWs, even SO 4s. We seem averse to liberalism in general now that the left is the establishment. 

The last defining aspect is conscientiousness or lack thereof (an aspect of the Big 5/MBTI, not Enneagram, but I've included it anyway to be comprehensive). Highly conscientious people are attracted to order and structure, so tend to be averse to chaos/randomness and this trait is associated with being more nationalistic. As I have noticed over the last few days, J/P preference has a profound impact on the kind of sexual choices people make, but to a lesser extent it is indicative of politics in general. 

----

OK, hope you guys found this interesting...


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## Stellafera (Jan 19, 2015)

Rock Of Ages said:


> *SJW/feminist: *
> Head triad: *5* _(always looks before they leap but not necessarily conscientious in other ways)_, *6* _(compliant triad member, moralistic tendencies, PHOBIC SIXES)_, 7 (fits fine for low conscientiousness actually)
> *Sexual instinct last* _(tendency to subsume passion for "the greater good", holding back)_
> Low in conscientiousness


Honestly, this seems backwards to me.

I would actually associate SJW behavior with a rather high level of conscientiousness. Lots of self-policing going on with that and an obsession with being "thoughtful" about things.


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## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

Stellafera said:


> Honestly, this seems backwards to me.
> 
> I would actually associate SJW behavior with a rather high level of conscientiousness. Lots of self-policing going on with that and an obsession with being "thoughtful" about things.


My two cents: Highly conscientious people tend to be more disciplined, decisive and prefer order. Having a structure to your relationships acts as a break on the desire for novelty, which makes casual sex undesirable. I am a classic example of this. My 4-ish kind of organization (analysing and obsessing over feelings, emotions and relationships) combines with a very strong 8 fix (power, strength, desire to sexually dominate). This creates a kind of romantic intensity which seems conspicuously absent from most SJWs' love lives - I imagine because they are scared/afraid that this would threaten their freedom. 

SJWs are often passionate people, yes, but they are idealistic about the wider world in general. They tend to be very detached and aloof in their personal lives - this is the total opposite of somebody like me. If you look at my posting history, I'm almost exclusively clashing with head triad and SX last people.

Also this is just an observation, but the great majority of SJWs on the forum are Perceivers of some kind. Clearly, a Judging preference in MBTI isn't equivalent to "being judgemental" in general parlance.


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## Stellafera (Jan 19, 2015)

Rock Of Ages said:


> Highly conscientious people tend to be very direct, decisive and prefer order, a structure to their relationships which makes casual sex undesirable.


I'm not as well acquainted with big 5 as I am with some other personality theories, but that sounds more like a combination of high conscientiousness _and_ low neuroticism.


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## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

Stellafera said:


> I'm not as well acquainted with big 5 as I am with some other personality theories, but that sounds more like a combination of high conscientiousness _and_ low neuroticism.


Perhaps you are right - I have always associated "flakiness" and "indecisiveness" with low conscientiousness, but I suppose they could also be a result of high neutroticism. 

I really wish that there were some studies done to test this. Even an informal survey of PerC's membership - asking them them to prioritize a set of values, answer some political questions, then list their type - something like that would be really helpful. I feel confident that a lot of my observations would be confirmed.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

I'm an sx 8w9 and I argue with all kinds of people but politically I identify myself on the liberal left which means some would assume I should be an SJW or something even though I'm staunchly against any forms of autocracy. I doubt one can make blanket statements in relationships to the enneagram. I think what makes someone more likely to formulate a political opinion is related to socioeconomic status and general intelligence. Being more progressive and liberal in one's values is also highly associated with openness to experience on the big 5. So it's not conscientiousness that matters, but whether one is open to experiences or not.


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## Stellafera (Jan 19, 2015)

*Edit:* Thought about it more and I think you are right about the low conscientiousness link with SJWism. I remember reading somewhere that leftists in general lean high openness and low conscientiousness and I definitely see that with the SJW ethos. 

Still disagree on the enneagram link, though. 



Rock Of Ages said:


> Perhaps you are right - I have always associated "flakiness" and "indecisiveness" with low conscientiousness, but I suppose they could also be a result of high neutroticism.


Flakiness is still probably low conscientiousness, indecisiveness not so much. I'm high in both traits myself. Think someone with high standards who tends to frequently second-guess themselves on how they're following them. 

I'm also very Agreeable, which further complicates any sort of "direct and decisive" expression of conscientiousness. I tend to express it more as nagging than "NO, YOU'RE WRONG. QUIT IT". 



> I really wish that there were some studies done to test this. Even an informal survey of PerC's membership - asking them them to prioritize a set of values, answer some political questions, then list their type - something like that would be really helpful. I feel confident that a lot of my observations would be confirmed.


Might as well throw my own ring into the hat. I usually score high very high in neuroticism and agreeableness. Fairly high in conscientiousness. Middlingly-low in extroversion. Openness tends to be all over the map; I'm very curious intellectually, but my actual willingness to entertain new situations and need for novelty is fairly quiet. Probably moderate in that category on the whole. 

I'm center-left politically and have noticed that I tend to get along better with conservatives in face-to-face political disputes than other liberals, probably due to me having the opposite of the "standard" left temperament. In general my political philosophy stems from a feeling of utilitarianism. I still have a lot to learn, of course.


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## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

Entropic said:


> I'm an sx 8w9 and I argue with all kinds of people but politically I identify myself on the liberal left which means some would assume I should be an SJW or something even though I'm staunchly against any forms of autocracy. I doubt one can make blanket statements in relationships to the enneagram. I think what makes someone more likely to formulate a political opinion is related to socioeconomic status and general intelligence.


I don't doubt that the higher one's general intelligence, the more politically aware he or she is likely to be. People with extreme political views of any hue tend to be of above average intelligence.

Nonetheless, what I'm trying to stress is that your underlying motivations - your emotions, morals and driving values - also have a profound impact on your politics. Indirectly, there is a lot of evidence for my view. Nobody has studied the impact of Enneagram directly but the effect of which moral values you prioritise on political affiliation has been studied. I therefore find it hard to imagine that we won't see some similar trends show up here.



Entropic said:


> Being more progressive and liberal in one's values is also highly associated with openness to experience on the big 5. So it's not conscientiousness that matters, but whether one is open to experiences or not.


Now I'm going to cause a little trouble.

Some of the Big 5 tests measure statements on Openness that political conservatives would always strongly disagree with, and which seem obliquely related to the topic at best. In other words, you could be conflating causation with a mere correlation, due to the biases of the test creators. I should find you an example.

The Truity test literally has a statement: "I tend to vote for liberal political candidates."

Not exactly subtle.

I have seen another one on similarminds: "I like to listen to indie rock".

Now come on; what on earth does that have to do with anything?


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## Navvy Jay (Mar 21, 2017)

Pretty interesting.
I'm 2w3, checks out.


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

Just some opinions: 

I see the populist, nationalistic movement here in the states as being more of a distinctive mix of 6, 8, and 9-ish themes than Heart type. The 9 theme is represented by the neglect of the "white working middle class" that wasn't heard by the elites all this time, didn't speak up, was taken for granted and now sits in a pile of rusty manufacturing equipment. The 8 is represented by the anger at that neglect, resentment at snooty fake-ass twats on the coasts who don't do real work, and turning the tables by yanking power away from cheaters and con artists to prove a point, and destroying the system. The 6 is represented by the fear of the future, and what awful things would have happened to the country had the "common man" not banded together and did something to fight back. 

I see the SJW movement as having aspects of a lot of different types - a lot of times SX 1, 3, 4, 6, and 8. Almost too many to truly narrow down. 

And finally a personal opinion, in that I lack even the most basic tolerance for SJW's and basically fly off the handle when forced to watch them on TV or even worse, deal with them in person : P


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Figure said:


> J
> 
> And finally a personal opinion, in that I lack even the most basic tolerance for SJW's and basically fly off the handle when forced to watch them on TV or even worse, deal with them in person : P



"i'm a victim" , or "I'm gonna protect all the anonymous victims" has no appeal for me.

a friend is a STAUNCH Far far far left. she pointed out if you go far enough left, and far enough right, it turns out there is danged near a circle and you meet each other.

Lots of truth there.


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## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

Figure said:


> Just some opinions:
> 
> I see the populist, nationalistic movement here in the states as being more of a distinctive mix of 6, 8, and 9-ish themes than Heart type. The 9 theme is represented by the neglect of the "white working middle class" that wasn't heard by the elites all this time, didn't speak up, was taken for granted and now sits in a pile of rusty manufacturing equipment. The 8 is represented by the anger at that neglect, resentment at snooty fake-ass twats on the coasts who don't do real work, and turning the tables by yanking power away from cheaters and con artists to prove a point, and destroying the system. The 6 is represented by the fear of the future, and what awful things would have happened to the country had the "common man" not banded together and did something to fight back.
> 
> ...


I have always associated SJWish philosophy (if there is such a thing) with the values of harmony, tolerance, detachment, moral license and hedonism. To a greater or lesser extent, all of these remind me of unhealthy versions of E7 and E9. 

Regarding the nationalist movement, maybe I should explain why I have chosen E8 and E4, and I'll use myself as a reference. My two contrasting personalities, who I call Donald and Franz, both are anti SJW if for different reasons.

Donald, the 8, asks if you can relate to: "fuck these prissy, effeminate people who don't respect our greatness and are constantly apologising. They are being taken advantage of by the enemy and don't even care. Pathetic! *cranks on some AC/DC*"

Franz, the 4, asks if you can relate to: "all these people are envious of my creativity and my beauty, in the name of equality they are going to destroy all I find wonderful. We are defined by that which makes us vibrant, amazing and unique. *sips wine*"

Anyway, I can't see a SJW in either of these two types.

Also, as I am _very_ SX (partner-focused) I have strong views about how people should behave in intimate relationships. By contrast, I am not particularly judgmental about impersonal, social things. I am just not focused on that area, and people who are irritate me because I feel like they have their priorities wrong. I can't imagine a strongly SX person being so preoccupied with social justice issues.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Rock Of Ages said:


> I have always associated SJWish philosophy with the values o tolerance,.


lost ya right there.

sjw is NOT tolerant.


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## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

drmiller100 said:


> lost ya right there.
> 
> sjw is NOT tolerant.


Maybe not, but they _think_ that they are. If you ask an SJW what they value the most, 99 times out of 100 they will say either "tolerance" or "equality".

In practice, I am much more tolerant of difference than a SJW, and I try my best not to play favourites with people, again quite unlike the SJWs in practice. It is interesting that this is despite "tolerance" not being one of my core values. I am also fundamentally opposed to any form of "equality". 

So we're talking about people's feelings, desires and motivations here. Does that make sense?

For the record, my core values are:

Authenticity (be yourself)
Passion (be passionate)
Originality (be unique/creative)
Strength (be powerful)
Integrity (don't be a hypocrite)


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Not sure about the OP, here are my general opinions:

Most SJWs I encounter seem to be, in this order, 6s, 9s, 7s, and a handful of 2s. There is a particular way of thinking, which exists in the SJW movement, that seems to appeal to 6s and 9s...I am not really sure what the quality is but it is definitely something I notice. For me it looks a little like hive-mindedness or closed-circuit thinking but I think there is another element there too. Obviously social instinct is a factor.

(I mean, SJWness basically grew up in the ultra-9ish bosom of political correctness and all that which was popular 15-20 years ago, but it's marked with much more reactivity and I'd say...a pretty strict dress code. Everything is problematic, even within the ranks. I see it as pretty head-type-ish because it tends to be focused on how people are thinking, rather than palpable actions or even really identity, the kind of identity they are focusing on is a different kind).

And yeah the far-right conservatives are very 6 and 8 based oc

_____________________

When I read nationalism I was thinking about for instance Yeats, a 4, whose focus was on building a poetic national identity, tied to the origins of Ireland, Mythologies and all that was in service of a quite personified country. In general I associate nationalism with some degree of poeticism and see more heart type influence. Though I'm not sure the difference between nationalism and some other things...

I think about this group which has some nationally-centric political-ish songs and some very poetic songs about love for the homeland, I am not sure of the Enneagram type, I see 8w9 or 9w8 with some 6, not heart-y but more poeticism still

The difference I see between SJWs and other social groups like that is that they do not seem to have any romanticization, despite often being very fluffy  I would postulate a social/self-pres difference

Anyway, two typical kinds of songs of this group:


* *





(using google translate liberally, idk many war words lol)





_But being at war, it's like...being at war
Cartridges, vodka, cigarettes at value
But being at war is difficult labor
You need to shoot, because they kill...

And being at war, it's like being at war
Sweetheart, remember me
But being at war, it's an uncertain hour
And maybe we (will kill them), or maybe (they will kill) us

Combat-battalion, battalion-combat
You didn't hide your hearts behind your spines, men
Planes fly and tanks roar
And so beat - &*!%, combat, &*!%, combat 

Combat-battalion, battalion-combat
Behind us Russia, Moscow and Arbat
Fire, battery, fire battery
Combat, &*!%, he commands

And being at war, is like being at war
Soldiers see their mothers in dreams
At war, and there it is
Everything's so much more serious, than in the movies...

Yes, war, war, war
She's a terrible aunt, a bitch
Aye, war, war goes on
And the girl waits for the lad...

(etc)
_






_We go out in the night, my horse and I
In the dark night we quietly go
Just me and the horse go out into the field
We go, the horse and I, into the field
Just me and the horse go out into the field
We go, the horse and I, into the field

On the field the night is graced with stars
On the field there is no-one to be seen
Just me and the horse, going along my field
Just me and the horse go through my field
Just me and the horse, going along my field
Just me and the horse go through my field

I sit on horseback on the horse
You carry, along my field, me!
To the very edge of my field
To the very edge of my field

And yes, I look once
Where the dawn is born in the field
Ay, colour of cowberry, and scarlet the dawn
Either it is that place, or it is not...
y, colour of cowberry, and scarlet the dawn
Either it is that place, or it is not...

My dear field, countrymen
The far villages are little flames
Golden rye and curly flax
I'm in love with you, Russia, in love
Ay, golden rye, ay, curly flax
I'm in love with you, Russia, in love

The coming year will be kind and abundant
And everything, everything will be done
Sing, golden rye, sing, curly flax
Sing about how I am in love with Russia
Sing, golden rye, sing, curly flax...

We go, the horse and I, into the field..._




Not hearty I think but more poetic, maybe it is the sp


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

drmiller100 said:


> lost ya right there.
> 
> sjw is NOT tolerant.


Yeah, tumblr is a good example of what happens when SJWs are around. Their hivemind like actions too are annoying as you piss one off and they come back in hordes lol


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Rock Of Ages said:


> For the record, my core values are:
> 
> Authenticity (be yourself)
> Passion (be passionate)
> ...


hmmm. values for you, or for others?
I value intelligence, power, honesty, Trying, drive to improve yourself.

In others I value kindness. In myself I value authenticity.


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## psyche (Jan 5, 2011)

I'm SJW, I guess? I see so many comments on this forum about how horrible they are but I take comfort in SJW communities, etc. so I guess that means I'm in the minority here? lol I'm sx 9... On the one SJW community I go to, the most active members seem to be predominantly 6. I noticed once there was a type 1 member who admitted to being a fiscal Republican, and man she really took some heat. So I guess that's the dark side of the movement, it just gets so heated... But honestly, I get heated myself. I'm not a member of the community though, I just read the comments to be honest. I don't know why? But anyway... I do sympathize with...the other side though, I guess. I mean I understand that the majority of the rust belt workers who voted for Trump are just hurting. And as passionate as I am about gun control, I know that the federal government getting involved in what is essentially terrorism like with what happened in Waco is...doomed. I know reactionaries against the federal government are essentially just hurting, and I don't have the slightest idea what to do about it. All I know is that I'm very left leaning and I take comfort in knowing there are other people who get as angry as I do sometimes, but if both sides hate each other we'll all end up killing each other. So... I don't know. I guess that sounds like a pretty 9-ish predicament to be in. Don't agree that only sx-lasts get worked up about this kind of thing though, I'm sx-first/social-last and obviously I get worked up about this stuff. I think being sx-first, maybe sx/sp in particular, not sure, can make the 9 anger flare up more easily than with other instincts anyway.


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## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

Both SJWs and Alt-right conservatives are extremists, highly passionate, probably high in conscientiousness, and also seem like Sexual-firsts or Social-firsts. 

You're going to find similar types on both ends of the spectrum.

Your type doesn't determine which dogma you subscribe to-- it determines your style in going about it, and how dogmatic you are likely to be .

I'm surprised you associate Image types with the conservative end @Rock Of Ages. To me, the SJW/ liberal /hipster movement has always seem particularly Image-type-y. I actually have a hard time assuming all SJWs aren't type 4s or 2s... I know they can't all be the same two types, but they sure seem that way.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Rock Of Ages said:


> I don't doubt that the higher one's general intelligence, the more politically aware he or she is likely to be. *People with extreme political views of any hue tend to be of above average intelligence*.


You mean the opposite, you mean? 



> Nonetheless, what I'm trying to stress is that your underlying motivations - your emotions, morals and driving values - also have a profound impact on your politics. Indirectly, there is a lot of evidence for my view. Nobody has studied the impact of Enneagram directly but the effect of which moral values you prioritise on political affiliation has been studied. I therefore find it hard to imagine that we won't see some similar trends show up here.


The problem is that the enneagram tries to map out psychological coping strategies with how you deal with life in general in relation to how you see yourself and others; they do not, however, actually suggest anything regarding your sociopolitical orientation. 



> Now I'm going to cause a little trouble.
> 
> Some of the Big 5 tests measure statements on Openness that political conservatives would always strongly disagree with, and which seem obliquely related to the topic at best. In other words, you could be conflating causation with a mere correlation, due to the biases of the test creators. I should find you an example.
> 
> ...


Sure, but that's not what I am arguing for. I simply mentioned that openness to experience is a trait typically associated with social progressivism. The way scientists have tried to get around this problem is to use the inventory in a wide variety of cultural contexts outside of western ones; the findings hold true regardless of what culture people are situated within.


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