# The Narcissist and the Predator: A Comparison/Contrast of 7s and 8s



## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Given the frequency of Enneagram 7s and 8s who mistype as each other (usually the former mistyping as the latter) and the amount of misinformation pertaining both types, I thought I would offer my take on the similarities/differences between 7s and 8s. naturally, feel free to share any thoughts or points of dissent.

*Disclaimer*: In the tradition of Enneagram theorists such as Naranjo and Maitri (whose works I have consulted but not, to my knowledge, directly cited) I have chosen to focus more on the negative aspects of both types to avoid the Forer Effect and attribution bias. while the similarities section is more broad and trait based, the differences section will attempt a more causal analysis and explain the neuroses of both types. Keep in mind, I am describing natural tendencies rooting in the fixations that are both types. Outward acting upon or manifestation of said tendencies need not be present in all 7s or 8s, but, regardless of level of health, the inclinations will be there.

*Similarities*: 
Id driven, shallow experience of emotion (except anger), flood themselves with stimulation in order feel alive, needs of self>needs of others, significant disregard for authority (which they typically don’t believe in in the first place) and difficulty fitting into hierarchical structures unless they are taking charge, able to force peoples' hands with the sheer impact of their personalities (and both prefer to as a first instinct, even though many 7s and 8s are highly intelligent), belief that they are invincible, enjoy pushing people’s buttons, may be prone to criminal behavior, provocative sense of humor with hardy laughter, lack a sense of societal obligation, staunchly resist externally imposed responsibilities, delayed emotional response to negative situations, seek power and control, internal sense of emptiness, strong sense of adventure, egocentric, prefer life in excess, sexually lusty and indulgent, assertive, confident, do not question what they want, make aggressive demands on the world, general "who cares?" attitude to most of life

*Key Differences*:
1) *Gluttony vs Lust*: both 7 and 8 are desire driven, but the 7's desire has a more fearful/"grass is greener" quality to it, constantly shuffling between sources of stimulation in order to avoid the inconveniences of reality that might interfere with their warped view of it. Time spent doing one thing is time spent away from something else, so 7 feel like they need to keep moving (whether physically or mentally) 8’s desire is typically channeled toward a single goal, which can range from destroying a “nemesis” to starting a company or immersion in sex or alcohol. In similar fashion to 3s, 8s can slip into “goal tunnel vision”, ignoring everything else under the impression that it is irrelevant and channeling all their energy towards their one objective, which they believe is the only thing that really matters. Naturally, it’s not difficult to see how neglected areas of the 8’s life can come back to bite him from behind.
2) *Narcissism vs Sociopathy*: 7s are the narcissists of the Enneagram and are obsessed with themselves. they believe the world revolves around them so they dream up grandiose fantasies and then confuse the subject matter of these fantasies with their true selves. as a result, fixated 7s can be overly demanding and expect the world to keep up the delusion that they’ve sold to themselves. Such tendencies can appear image triad related, but in reality they are the product of fearful ignorance, shutting down any possibility of reality raining on their parade. If 7 is the narcissist, 8 is the sociopath. They view the world as dog eat dog where the weak are food to be devoured and they are predators who indulge the thrill of the kill. Life to them is amoral, consequentialist and lacks the rosy delusion often present in the 7's worldview (though rosy does not necessarily imply peaceful, rather it means whatever the 7 finds appealing and convenient). at their worst, 8s start to view people as nothing more than peaces of meat and separate from concepts like human interconnectedness and the intrinsic value of life. 
3) *Entitlement vs Sadism*: the aggression of 7s and 8s can look similar on the outside, but the sources are different. 7’s comes from a sense of entitlement. Because they think the world revolves around them, 7s believe that they inherently deserve the best and are willing to demand their desires, regardless of how unreasonably, on the external world. By contrast, 8’s aggression stems from sadism. 8s seek to conquer and dominate their environment and revel in the squirming demise of their enemies. At their worst, aggression can come completely unprovoked from no rationale other than “because I can”. Many serial killers are disintegrated 8s
4) *sources of confidence*: for 8s ,the source of confidence is their hardened, predator psychology. They know they can do whatever they need to, no matter how treacherous or brutal….because they just don’t care. For 7s, the source is in how they perceive themselves. There is a tendency to think “I am, therefore I can” and, given the megalomanic nature of their fantasies (which they confuse for the true self) this can lead to the 7 being absolutely convinced of his superiority sans any external affirmation. There is a good reason why 7 integrates to a competency type (5). Integrating 7s learn that they must put in the time to learn REAL competence, gain REAL experience and look at REAL life and all of its obstacles if they have any hopes of attaining their desires.
5) *definitions of power*: to a 7, power means freedom, options/choices, the ability to get what they want and the ability to refuse what they don't. to an 8, power means the ability to dominate and control. they want to subordinate the world to their will, whether that be objects or living creatures (8w7s are typically more concerned with controlling the material world; 8w9s with holding their stronghold or “peace making” within their social sphere). 
6) *Pain and Wellbeing*: 7s are typically not a fan of pain, physical or emotional, and will venture great lengths to avoid it. They are more sensitive to their own wellbeing than 8s Pain snaps them back to reality and pokes holes in the naïve, optimistic frame of mind they tend to get stuck in. Episodes of pain or inconvenience can be met with severe protest and physical or verbal aggression. 7s do not take many things personally, but being dealt pain is one of them. 8s have a more paradoxical relationship with pain. On one hand, they actively seek to gain power for the sake of avoiding being controlled or harmed by others; on the other, many 8s seem to welcome it. There are two main reasons for this. 1) Pain is one of the few experiences which allows 8s to actually feel something. It reassures them that they are, in fact, alive and that there are fresh challenges to conquer and surmount. 2) many 8s deliberately seek out pain in hopes of desensitizing themselves to it and growing stronger. Ironically, their avoidance of being harmed by others often results in losing the ends in the means, leading to them to inflict the pain they so resolutely avoided at the hands of others onto themselves.

*Examples:
7 with a 6 wing: "The Trickster"*
Ryan Gosling, Richard Branson, Benjamin Franklin, Jennifer Lawrence, Lady Gaga, Marie Antoinette, Richard Feymann, Britney Spears, Mark Twain, Niall Horan "Tom Sawyer", "Zorro" (The Mask of Zorro), "Joffrey Baratheon" (Game of Thrones), “Veruca Salt” (Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory), “Jack Sparrow” (Pirates of the Carribean), “Odysseus” (The Odyssey), “Fred and George Weasley” (Harry Potter), “Peter Griffin” (Family Guy)

*7 with an 8 wing: "The Hedonist"*
Hugh Hefner, Madonna, Alexander the Great, Joan Collins, Snoop Dogg, Alec Baldwin, Ke$ha, Casanova, Mick Jagger, Jack Nicholson, Cleopatra "Jaime Lannister" (Game of Thrones), “Arya Stark” (Game of Thrones) "The Comedian" (Watchmen), "Scarlett O'Hara" (Gone with the Wind), “Phil” (The Hangover), “Doc Holliday” (Tombstone), “Robert Baratheon” (Game of Thrones), “Tony Stark” (Ironman)

*8 with a 7 wing: "The Conqueror" *
Napoleon Bonaparte, Donald Trump, Andrew Jackson, Jillian Michaels, Simon Cowell, Charles Manson, Theodore Roosevelt, Rasputin, Frank Sinatra, "Khal Drogo" (Game of Thrones), "Cruella de Vil" (101 Dalmatians), "Rhett Butler" (Gone with the Wind), “The Grinch”, “Beatrix Kiddo” (Kill Bill), “Achilles” (The Iliad), “Gordon Gekko” (Wall Street), “Mewtwo” (Pokemon)

*8 with a 9 wing: "The Giant"*
Jesse Ventura, Russell Crowe, Johnny Cash, John Wayne, Glen Close, Winston Churchill, Robert de Niro, Bing Crosby, Henry Kissinger, Clint Eastwood, Paul Newman "Tywin Lannister" (Game of Thrones), "Darth Vader" (Star Wars), “Bane” (Batman), “Bill” (Kill Bill), “ Saruman” (Lord of the Rings), “Howard Roark” (The Fountainhead), “K” (Men in Black)

*Works Consulted:*
1) The Wisdom of the Enneagram (Don Riso and Russ Hudson)
2) Character and Neuroses (Claudio Naranjo)
3) The Spiritual Dimension of the Enneagram (Sandra Maitri)


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

This is a great thread topic. 
@_Figure_, you might enjoy. Also, @_Saira_

and @_LeoCat_ and @_cata.lyst.rawr_ just for kicks.


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

I already said this once today, but I'll say it again. Here's how 7w8 works:



Do you want to avoid this for something more pleasing?
If Yes, see if you can do it while still maintaining advantage in the situation
If No, fiddle with the options

Will avoiding it cause issues that need to be dealt with, and with whom?
If Yes, too bad, they need to deal with it
If Yes and there may be a bone to pick, then let the games begin - don't screw with me

Bottom line,* t**he solution is X.*
"This is unpleasant." "Too bad." People may be counting on you (or you may not follow through).
Re-assess and return to step 1


There are a lot of tangents in all steps except 3, where the thinking stops and I just do. 1-2 take the longest, and there's a lot of time spent just - thinking. I really think the difference between 7 and 8 is very simple - 7's are head and 8's are gut. 7's buzz with thoughts, 8's respond. As a 7w8 I think a *lot *but there comes a point where the idealization ends and I cut the bullshit out and want *one *thing. I'm not sure if this is having an 8 fix, or actually part of w8. Calling @_rawrmosher_ 

Another mistype issue to note, per Maitri, is that Sp 7's, who tend to be protective "guardians" of their group. The passion of gluttony is planning for others, "taking care of" them. 

@_Swordsman of Mana_ we need a one sentence divider. I say 8's get down to what's true, 7's see what could be true.


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## rawrmosher (Apr 22, 2013)

Figure said:


> I already said this once today, but I'll say it again. Here's how 7w8 works:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nope. I get that too. My enthusiasm kind of couples with a desire for action, so while I do think a lot I'm also very impulsive and very persistent in going after something I want. Not in an overtly aggressive way though, it's more of an assertive/jokey but at the same time very driven impulse.


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

Figure said:


> *
> I really think the difference between 7 and 8 is very simple - 7's are head and 8's are gut.* 7's buzz with thoughts, 8's respond.


i agree. 

i don't know about 7s, but i often have problems with clear thinking. it's like the thinking process is muddied up. sometimes i don't get the simplest things right away, it takes a significant delay till i get what others understand immediately. and it happens with the really simple things, not quantum mechanical concepts (which, by the way, make more sense at the time, lol). sometimes it takes me longer to get to the bottom of the matter. i usually always get there, but some things are not as clear to me as some others, and with the former it takes longer to sort them out. it's more, that i intuit the main point, rather than get there through some thought process. ideas, too, sort of come to me, as if put together nice and neat by my subconsciousness, rather than my consciousness. it's weird and fascinating at the same time. it's a paradox in itself.

in all, there's some obvious problems with the thought process. i'm aware it's not 'clear', that it's 'clouded'. that's how i know i'm not in the head triad. to me, this too, is the best distinction between the 7 and the 8.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

I used to have this conversation (in essence) with my 7w6 friend a lot:

Him: How do you know that'll work?
Me: I just _know_.
Him: What if there's a more efficient way? Have you thought of the other options? 
Me: Nope. I can make this work.
Him: You're a pathetic waste of life. :dry:
Me: I'm gonna go do it... catch up with me when you get bored.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Figure said:


> I really think the difference between 7 and 8 is very simple - 7's are head and 8's are gut. 7's buzz with thoughts, 8's respond. As a 7w8 I think a *lot *but there comes a point where the idealization ends and I cut the bullshit out and want *one *thing. I'm not sure if this is having an 8 fix, or actually part of w8. Calling @_rawrmosher_
> Another mistype issue to note, per Maitri, is that Sp 7's, who tend to be protective "guardians" of their group. The passion of gluttony is planning for others, "taking care of" them.
> @_Swordsman of Mana_ we need a one sentence divider. I say 8's get down to what's true, 7's see what could be true.


no, it is not that simple. 8 and 7 have vastly different worldviews, core issues they deal with and unconscious tendencies/thought processes.

many 7s can seem very gut center (especially in their own minds) and many 8w7s can have brilliant, quick minds and problem solving skills and come off as gut center. my best friend is an 8w7 (INTJ Sp/Sx with a 5w6 fix) and often seems a lot more head center than I am (a 5 fix + being NTJ can look a lot more head center than 7, which often doesn't even look head center).


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Animal said:


> I used to have this conversation (in essence) with my 7w6 friend a lot:
> 
> Him: How do you know that'll work?
> Me: I just _know_.
> ...


that's NF vs NT, not 8 vs 7. I'm ENFP 7w6 I've been on your side of the conversation many more times than his (he is probably an ENTP)


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## Tater Tot (May 28, 2012)

I'm so freaking glad I never had any confusion/mistypings with 8. It sounds so embarrassing to have to backpedal from that. :laughing:


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> that's NF vs NT, not 8 vs 7. I'm ENFP 7w6 I've been on your side of the conversation many more times than his (he is probably an ENTP)


Good point. He's an INTJ


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Tater Tot said:


> I'm so freaking glad I never had any confusion/mistypings with 8. It sounds so embarrassing to have to backpedal from that. :laughing:


I think it's silly that people should be more embarrassed to "back paddle" from an 8 mistype than any other mistype.


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

Animal said:


> I think it's silly that people should be more embarrassed to "back paddle" from an 8 mistype than any other mistype.


i don't understand the shame thing at all. what's shameful about anything in life? it's all part of process. mistakes are just as valuable as successes. the 'bad' stuff is just as good as the 'good' stuff.


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## Lotan (Aug 10, 2012)

This post seems to be implying that I am not in fact the center of the universe and I reject that notion.

Serious though, another difference I've noticed is in terms of control. 8s seem to want more control/influence/power for the sake of it; the further their reach extends the more comfortable they are. With myself, I can come off as a control freak in some situations, but in general if what someone else is doing isn't affecting me personally I couldn't care less about it. I want everything going my own way within my own little sphere, and if you get inside that sphere I can seem pretty demanding but if you're outside of it I'm pretty chill.

And, I was surprised when people I know described me as "pretty chill" because in my own space I seem controlling, but yeah if you wanna do whatever thing and it's not gonna affect me then shine on you crazy diamond.


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## cudibloop (Oct 11, 2012)

Enneagram 8s are more likely to get into a serious confrontation over a bump on the shoulder. 7s in general don't get physical unless they find it fun/amusing, whereas in 8s there's just so much serious angst involved at all times.

A 7w8 will provoke an 8w7 for shits and giggles thinking it's all gonna turn out fine, then the 8w7 will pull out a gun and shoot the 7w8 ten times. Very dark, but you get the point.


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## rawrmosher (Apr 22, 2013)

cudibloop said:


> Enneagram 8s are more likely to get into a serious confrontation over a bump on the shoulder. 7s in general don't get physical unless they find it fun/amusing, whereas in 8s there's just so much serious angst involved at all times.
> 
> A 7w8 will provoke an 8w7 for shits and giggles thinking it's all gonna turn out fine, then the 8w7 will pull out a gun and shoot the 7w8 ten times. Very dark, but you get the point.


YES. My dad's an ENTJ type 8(he did the test at work apparently) and I've often gotten rants from him because I've taken my jokey confrontations too far. Especially in my younger 'save the tree days' 

*facepalm*

because he's a chemical engineer for an energy company  he's also a lot angrier than me when he's annoyed. I tend to have the 7 goofiness combined with that, people still take me seriously when I'm annoyed but I can snap back to my cheerful goofy self much more easily than I imagine he can. Though he is an ENTJ, so he's far more serious to begin with


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## Tater Tot (May 28, 2012)

Animal said:


> I think it's silly that people should be more embarrassed to "back paddle" from an 8 mistype than any other mistype.


I think there's an (fading, but still slightly there) assumption that people who mistype as 8's are wannabes trying to be hardcore. :laughing: I think it's silly too, but apparently that used to be a huge source of ridicule or something.


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

cudibloop said:


> whereas in 8s there's just so much serious angst involved at all times.


not angst. anger though, yes.

i can be really chill and relaxed; i can be in a really good mood, and carefree, and even still there's always present an undercurrent of anger there. at any given time i can tap into it even though i am not angry most of the time at all. 

it is this reservoir of anger, this anger potential, that, in my opinion, can make me turn physical, violent, confrontational for small things. the fact that i have such an easy access to it.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

meridannight said:


> i don't understand the shame thing at all. what's shameful about anything in life? it's all part of process. mistakes are just as valuable as successes. the 'bad' stuff is just as good as the 'good' stuff.


in general, shame is a rather foreign emotion to 7s and 8s because of their disconnection from the heart triad

while I'm at it, I think I'll summon @Boss, @n2freedom, @Paradigm and @dfoster, as this thread could probably use a few minor alterations


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Tater Tot said:


> I think there's an (fading, but still slightly there) assumption that people who mistype as 8's are wannabes trying to be hardcore. :laughing: I think it's silly too, but apparently that used to be a huge source of ridicule or something.


Yup. I have been on the receiving end of such assumptions as "You think you're badass" - and I've fought the "you're not cool enough to be an 8" bullshit. Nobody owes it to anyone to prove their 8ness to the forum. First of all, it's insulting to other types to give such a stigma to type 8 that people would only "think they're cool" if they type at 8. It's also annoying to type at 8 for legitimate reasons, and have people attacking you left and right about your intentions so that you can't have a productive conversation on the 8 forum, the way people do on other forums. I made it my business to address that every time I saw it happening. It's one thing to suggest another type to someone (and I've never been angry at a type suggestion) .. it's another thing to go in there assuming that every person who hasn't proved their 8ness doesn't deserve to post. I'm glad there have been good discussions on the 8 forum lately, just like there have been on the other subforums - and I don't care much if others are mistyped. If we have a lot of good conversations, people will eventually figure out for themselves if they're mistyped, just like they do on the other subforums. Or if they want to pretend to be an 8 for some strange reason, that's their loss, not mine; they won't get out of the enneagram what they could if they approached it more honestly.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

meridannight said:


> i don't understand the shame thing at all. what's shameful about anything in life? it's all part of process. mistakes are just as valuable as successes. the 'bad' stuff is just as good as the 'good' stuff.


Agreed. I felt kind of silly once I realized I wasn't a 5, because "Damn, I thought I knew myself?!" .. but in retrospect, it's pretty hilarious that I thought I was a 5. It's especially funny reading my posts about lust and sex and chasing my goals on the 5 forum. :laughing:


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Animal said:


> Agreed. I felt kind of silly once I realized I wasn't a 5, because "Damn, I thought I knew myself?!" .. but in retrospect, it's pretty hilarious that I thought I was a 5. It's especially funny reading my posts about lust and sex and chasing my goals on the 5 forum. :laughing:


I had my doubts about your 5-ness from the get go due to your saucy, more passionate demeanor. when you posted that signature of the woman in the revealing dress next to two white tigers I was like ".....no. this bitch is Id as hell!  "


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

This is a good start, SOM. Define the terms sociopath and sadist. What do you think Naranjo was referring to when he used these terms? Also, talk about what narcissism and sadism mean in this context. People throw these terms around unthinkingly. Sadism is used in reference to psychopathology (a characteristic of ASPD) in CN. 


The 7 fear of pain is not a fear of physical pain. 7s tend to perceive their inner landscape as being arid, lifeless and even painful. That's what the pain refers to primarily. The lust of type 8 has an element of pain, the pain associated with conquest and overcoming. 8s seek intensity to feel alive (lust), not pain. They do have a high pain threshold, and are unlikely to let pain get in the way of their goals. It's a variation of taking the counter-phobic approach to life, as RH put it, so like fear, they're likely to bulldoze over pain (emotional/physical) to get things done. A 7 would get more scattered/frustrated in similar situations, before they pull up their bootstraps and do what needs to be done. 

We do need more compare and contrast threads, and 6/8 has been done to death. So, I am glad you started this particular discussion.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Boss said:


> This is a good start, SOM. Define the terms sociopath and sadist. What do you think Naranjo was referring to when he used these terms? Also, talk about what narcissism and sadism mean in this context. People throw these terms around unthinkingly. Sadism is used in reference to psychopathology (a characteristic of ASPD) in CN.


I will need to look into these more



> The 7 fear of pain is not a fear of physical pain. 7s tend to perceive their inner landscape as being arid, lifeless and even painful. That's what the pain refers to primarily.


I can relate to the arid, lifeless inner landscape. if that's the case, is there any enneagram related aversion to pain? (maybe 5s, 6s and Sp doms?)



> The lust of type 8 has an element of pain, the pain associated with conquest and overcoming. 8s seek intensity to feel alive (lust), not pain.


I wasn't aware I said otherwise. 



> We do need more compare and contrast threads, and 6/8 has been done to death. So, I am glad you started this particular discussion.


I thought I'd start with 7 and 8 because they're pretty similar in a lot of ways and both are misunderstood/misrepresented often. (7 is much darker and more megalomanic than it is typically portrayed as and 8 gets a bunch of traits of 6, 7 and 1 attributed to it on a regular basis)


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@_Swordsman of Mana_

SP firsts and those with strong SP can be very averse to physical discomfort, including physical pain of course. For me, hunger and feeling overheated will do the trick. It drives me insane. I am not myself when I am overheated lol. People find it hard to empathize with why I react the way I do, but some kinds of physical discomfort bring out the worst in me. 

Here's what you said:


> 1) Pain is one of the few experiences which allows 8s to actually feel something. *It reassures them that they are, in fact, alive *and that there are fresh challenges to conquer and surmount. 2) many 8s deliberately seek out pain in hopes of desensitizing themselves to it and growing stronger.


That's the part I disagree with. For deliberately seeking out pain to grow stronger, could you elaborate on that? They seek out more and more intensity to counteract the inner dullness/emotional deadening. This is not the same as seeking out pain to feel alive or to grow stronger. 

I talked about high pain threshold and not letting pain get in the way. Assuming that's what you were getting at, then I could kind of see your point. I'd like to see your 3 and 7 thread as well.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Boss said:


> @Swordsman of Mana
> SP firsts can be very averse to physical discomfort, including physical pain of course. For me, hunger and feeling overheated will do the trick. It drives me insane. I am not myself when I am overheated lol. People find it hard to empathize with why I react the way I do, but some kinds of physical discomfort bring out the worst in me.


for me, it's mostly hunger, cold and physical pain. 



> Here's what you said:
> That's the part I disagree with. For deliberately seeking out pain to grow stronger, could you elaborate on that?


I'll look into it



> I talked about high pain threshold and not letting pain get in the way. Assuming that's what you were getting at, sure. I'd like to see your 3 and 7 thread as well.


I'm a little less versed on type 3. 
off the top of my head though, both 3s and 7s tend to be arrogant, but the source is different. 
3s think "I do, therefore I am". their sense of self worth and any arrogance this might produce comes from their accomplishments.
7s are narcissistic. they naturally assume they are special and that the world will cater to their wims and desires. they see themselves as inherently superior and don't feel that they need external accomplishments in order to do so.


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## n2freedom (Jun 2, 2011)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> *Key Differences*:
> 1) *Gluttony vs Lust*: both 7 and 8 are desire driven, but the 7's desire has a more fearful/"grass is greener" quality to it, constantly shuffling between sources of stimulation in order to avoid the inconveniences of reality that might interfere with their warped view of it. Time spent doing one thing is time spent away from something else, so 7 feel like they need to keep moving (whether physically or mentally) 8’s desire is typically channeled toward a single goal, which can range from destroying a “nemesis” to starting a company or immersion in sex or alcohol. In similar fashion to 3s, 8s can slip into “goal tunnel vision”, ignoring everything else under the impression that it is irrelevant and channeling all their energy towards their one objective, which they believe is the only thing that really matters. Naturally, it’s not difficult to see how neglected areas of the 8’s life can come back to bite him from behind.


I agree with this difference. Gluttony of 7 is about more in a broad sense while the lust of 8 is more in a depth sense. Gluttony does appear to be more about vastness and variety....the newness...the shiny the bright. Whereas with lust is more about going deeper...turning the dial a little higher...where are the limits to this thing.


Swordsman of Mana said:


> 2) *Narcissism vs Sociopathy*: 7s are the narcissists of the Enneagram and are obsessed with themselves. they believe the world revolves around them so they dream up grandiose fantasies and then confuse the subject matter of these fantasies with their true selves. as a result, fixated 7s can be overly demanding and expect the world to keep up the delusion that they’ve sold to themselves. Such tendencies can appear image triad related, but in reality they are the product of fearful ignorance, shutting down any possibility of reality raining on their parade. If 7 is the narcissist, 8 is the sociopath. They view the world as dog eat dog where the weak are food to be devoured and they are predators who indulge the thrill of the kill. Life to them is amoral, consequentialist and lacks the rosy delusion often present in the 7's worldview (though rosy does not necessarily imply peaceful, rather it means whatever the 7 finds appealing and convenient). at their worst, 8s start to view people as nothing more than peaces of meat and separate from concepts like human interconnectedness and the intrinsic value of life.


I'm not sure on 7s and narcissism. But, yes I can see 8 slipping down the slippery slope of sociopathic behavior if not careful.



Swordsman of Mana said:


> 3) *Entitlement vs Sadism*: the aggression of 7s and 8s can look similar on the outside, but the sources are different. 7’s comes from a sense of entitlement. Because they think the world revolves around them, 7s believe that they inherently deserve the best and are willing to demand their desires, regardless of how unreasonably, on the external world. By contrast, 8’s aggression stems from sadism. 8s seek to conquer and dominate their environment and revel in the squirming demise of their enemies. At their worst, aggression can come completely unprovoked from no rationale other than “because I can”. Many serial killers are disintegrated 8s


Again not sure on 7s with this one. I agree with 8s seek to conquer and dominate _their_ environment. I agree they can revel in the squirming demise of their _enemies_. And, to add to that help them along the way. I don't necessarily agree with aggression can come completely unprovoked from no rationale other than "because I can." And, haven't seen any supporting documentation that many serial killers are disintegrated 8s.



Swordsman of Mana said:


> 4) *sources of confidence*: for 8s ,the source of confidence is their hardened, predator psychology. They know they can do whatever they need to, no matter how treacherous or brutal….because they just don’t care. For 7s, the source is in how they perceive themselves. There is a tendency to think “I am, therefore I can” and, given the megalomanic nature of their fantasies (which they confuse for the true self) this can lead to the 7 being absolutely convinced of his superiority sans any external affirmation. There is a good reason why 7 integrates to a competency type (5). Integrating 7s learn that they must put in the time to learn REAL competence, gain REAL experience and look at REAL life and all of its obstacles if they have any hopes of attaining their desires.


I don't know if it's stems from just don't care or I will do whatever it takes to get the job done. I can only think of the poem by William Ernest Henly Invictus when it comes to confidence....


> Out of the night that covers me,
> Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
> I thank whatever gods may be
> For my unconquerable soul.
> ...





Swordsman of Mana said:


> 5) *definitions of power*: to a 7, power means freedom, options/choices, the ability to get what they want and the ability to refuse what they don't. to an 8, power means the ability to dominate and control. they want to subordinate the world to their will, whether that be objects or living creatures (8w7s are typically more concerned with controlling the material world; 8w9s with holding their stronghold or “peace making” within their social sphere).


Hmmmmm...I'm going to have to think on this one. 



Swordsman of Mana said:


> 6) *Pain and Wellbeing*: 7s are typically not a fan of pain, physical or emotional, and will venture great lengths to avoid it. They are more sensitive to their own wellbeing than 8s Pain snaps them back to reality and pokes holes in the naïve, optimistic frame of mind they tend to get stuck in. Episodes of pain or inconvenience can be met with severe protest and physical or verbal aggression. 7s do not take many things personally, but being dealt pain is one of them. 8s have a more paradoxical relationship with pain. On one hand, they actively seek to gain power for the sake of avoiding being controlled or harmed by others; on the other, many 8s seem to welcome it. There are two main reasons for this. 1) Pain is one of the few experiences which allows 8s to actually feel something. It reassures them that they are, in fact, alive and that there are fresh challenges to conquer and surmount. 2) many 8s deliberately seek out pain in hopes of desensitizing themselves to it and growing stronger. Ironically, their avoidance of being harmed by others often results in losing the ends in the means, leading to them to inflict the pain they so resolutely avoided at the hands of others onto themselves.


I don't think 8s deliberately seek out pain in hopes of desensitizing themselves to it and growing stronger. I think 8s have a higher threshold and tolerance for pain and may not react to painful events and circumstances in the same manner most people do. And, yes it hard to feel dead on the inside when you're feeling pain. I think 8s relationship to pain is similar to the concept behind homeopathic medicine. 


Very interesting thread topic. It should be interesting to see what others contribute to it.


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## SharkT00th (Sep 5, 2012)

Both the 7 and the 8 are narcissist, they just exhibit different types of it.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

A few things that could have made your description more in-depth and salient:-

1. Difference between 7 as a positive outlook triader and 8 as a reactive triader
2. 7 as being in the frustration triad and 8 as rejection.
3. 7 (fear/head fixation/type) and 8 (anger/gut fixation/type)

There are many superficial similarities and some more relevant ones, but they're very different types at the core.


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## ShadowPrince (Jul 6, 2013)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> In the tradition of Enneagram theorists such as Naranjo and Maitri (whose works I have consulted but not, to my knowledge, directly cited) I have chosen to focus more on the negative aspects of both types to avoid the Forer Effect and attribution bias.


You cannot have done a lot of consulting of those sources based on your take on type 7 here. For one thing, "gluttony" refers primarily to gluttony of the "unusual" involved in dreaming/planning, and the self-idealization (narcissism) is mainly _intellectual_. You appear to have made a lot of confusions between types 2 and 7, as is common with Riso and Hudson students. For example:




Swordsman of Mana said:


> 2) *Narcissism vs Sociopathy*: 7s are the narcissists of the Enneagram and are obsessed with themselves. they believe the world revolves around them so they dream up grandiose fantasies and then confuse the subject matter of these fantasies with their true selves. as a result, fixated 7s can be overly demanding and expect the world to keep up the delusion that they’ve sold to themselves. Such tendencies can appear image triad related, but in reality they are the product of fearful ignorance, shutting down any possibility of reality raining on their parade.


What you are describing here is the grandiosity of "pride," not the intellectual self-idealization of the gluttonous who is much more equalitarian in his or her approach to people.

Accordingly, many of your examples are wrong. Madonna, Casanova, Cleopatra, Napoleon Bonaparte, Alexander the Great, and "Scarlett O'Hara" are all 2s. Almost all of them are even cited and elaborated upon by Naranjo himself as examples of 2s. Riso and Hudson never had a complete understand of how the enneagram system truly works thus generating many prejudices and misconceptions about types in the process.


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

ShadowPrince said:


> Accordingly, many of your examples are wrong. Madonna, Casanova, Cleopatra, *Napoleon Bonaparte,* Alexander the Great, and "Scarlett O'Hara" are all 2s. Almost all of them are even cited and elaborated upon by Naranjo himself as examples of 2s.


i'm sorry, but Napoleon Bonaparte as 2 is laughable. if you mean Napoleon III, or Napoleon's son (though it is unlikely you mean these two) then i have no comments, as i don't know much about them. i think Napoleon is correctly typed as 8.


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## ShadowPrince (Jul 6, 2013)

Napoleon Bonaparte was a Social 2. The core of the Social 2 is ambition.


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

ShadowPrince said:


> Napoleon Bonaparte was a Social 2. The core of the Social 2 is ambition.


lols.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

I gotta admit I laughed at the idea of Napolean Bonaparte being a 2. LOL..yeah. 
@_ShadowPrince_

I offer you an open mind. Regale me. Why do you think he was a 2?
@meridannight

Oh, let's just call him a "cp6" and get it over with. :laughing:


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

ShadowPrince said:


> What you are describing here is the grandiosity of "pride," not the intellectual self-idealization of the gluttonous who is much more equalitarian in his or her approach to people.
> 
> Accordingly, many of your examples are wrong. Madonna, Casanova, Cleopatra, Napoleon Bonaparte, Alexander the Great, and "Scarlett O'Hara" are all 2s. Almost all of them are even cited and elaborated upon by Naranjo himself as examples of 2s. Riso and Hudson never had a complete understand of how the enneagram system truly works thus generating many prejudices and misconceptions about types in the process.


I have no opinion about the people you mentioned - personally I would only weigh in on celebrities after reading their biography and knowing a lot about their lives; and even then I am aware that I'd be typing their 'image' rather than 'who they are,' unless they have a wide enough body of song lyrics and biographies and personal writing to reveal who they are (ie, John Lennon, type 9). However, I will say this. Type 2 is a very misunderstood type. People don't realize that it is part of the POWER triad: 2, 5, and 8. 2s feel power through other people, 5s feel power through knowledge, and 8s feel power through action. Type 2 is not about 'all we need is love' - that's actually a more 9ish sentiment if it has to be classified. Type 2 is about manipulating others to get affection; wearing a mask to be someone who can get what they want out of each person. I'm not saying this to put down 2s, it is just that the basis of 2 is misunderstood and often misrepresented as "aww, they just want to be loved." No, every enneagram type has potential to be really fucked up. Naranjo's 2, in his own words, is closest to an 'id' type and is a master manipulator to have their own way, by way of controlling others. @Midnight Runner please weigh in.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Boss said:


> A few things that could have made your description more in-depth and salient:-
> 
> 1. Difference between 7 as a positive outlook triader and 8 as a reactive triader
> 2. 7 as being in the frustration triad and 8 as rejection.
> ...


All very good points. Also the key defense mechanisms: denial vs. rationalization.


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

Boss said:


> @meridannight
> 
> Oh, let's just call him a "cp6" and get it over with. :laughing:


that's bound to come up sooner or later on this topic anyway.

though yeah, seeing the reasoning behind typing Napoleon as a 2 could be entertaining.

@Animal. i know that much about 2s. and Napoleon is a clear power-through-action over power-through-other-people type. even if you classify 2 as being in a power triad (huh?) it still doesn't stand. and the ambition reasoning doesn't stand either. absolutely every type can have ambition. it's where it's directed and how it's directed that matters. gobbling up a whole continent as yours is hardly type 2. sorry, but no way in hell.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

meridannight said:


> that's bound to come up sooner or later on this topic anyway.
> 
> though yeah, seeing the reasoning behind typing Napoleon as a 2 could be entertaining.
> 
> @_Animal_. i know that much about 2s. and Napoleon is a clear power-through-action over power-through-other-people type. even if you classify 2 as being in a power triad (huh?) it still doesn't stand. and the ambition reasoning doesn't stand either. absolutely every type can have ambition. it's where it's directed and how it's directed that matters. gobbling up a whole continent as yours is hardly type 2. sorry, but no way in hell.


I was just writing about 2s. Like I said, I have *no* opinion on Napoleon whatsoever. I was not thinking about enneagram when I studied that portion of history, and I have no thoughts on the matter.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@_Animal_

Naranjo describes female Sx 2s as the ultimate femme fatales and certainly master manipulators, the kinds that have lead many an 8 male around by the nose. 

And yes, it can't be emphasized enough how misunderstood the type is. 2 is a power-focused type like 8 and 5.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Boss said:


> @_Animal_
> 
> Naranjo describes female Sx 2s as the ultimate femme fatales and certainly master manipulators, the kinds that have lead many an 8 male around by the nose.


What about male Sx 2's leading female 8s around by the nose?


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

Animal said:


> I was just writing about 2s.


i know. i was just writing seeing as i was already on the topic. details.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Animal said:


> What about male Sx 2's leading female 8s around by the nose?


It's a fun ride until they go psycho stalker on your ass. :laughing:


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Boss said:


> It's a fun ride until they go psycho stalker on your ass. :laughing:


Been there. 

I once came out of my friend's house to find candy on my windshield from 'the candy man' - my type 2 ex. I don't even like candy. Well played, 2.

There are a lot of crazy stories about this guy but candy man is funniest so I'll leave it at that.


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## Tater Tot (May 28, 2012)

Boss said:


> @_Swordsman of Mana_
> 
> I talked about high pain threshold and not letting pain get in the way. Assuming that's what you were getting at, then I could kind of see your point. I'd like to see your 3 and 7 thread as well.


I actually think I might take it upon myself to tackle 3 and 7. :laughing: I made a thread for other people to give their insight but it wasn't very popular rofl. Mistyping as 3 has been my main schtick here at perc lol.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Tater Tot said:


> I actually think I might take it upon myself to tackle 3 and 7. :laughing: I made a thread for other people to give their insight but it wasn't very popular rofl. Mistyping as 3 has been my main schtick here at perc lol.


Cool.. I'm taking a short break from perc pretty soon , but in the meantime feel free to run stuff by me/ tag me etc.. I also had some confusion with these types.


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## Grau the Great (Mar 2, 2012)

meridannight said:


> i'm sorry, but Napoleon Bonaparte as 2 is laughable. if you mean Napoleon III, or Napoleon's son (though it is unlikely you mean these two) then i have no comments, as i don't know much about them. i think Napoleon is correctly typed as 8.


Napoleon I was likely an 8, or at least a similarly assertive type. As for Napoleon III, he seems most likely a 3 to me. Too much show for too little substance, and his defeat by the Prussians was exactly because he neglected the 'boring' organizational aspects of running a country in favor of the more fun percs of being emperor. So yeah, absolutely nothing 2-ish about either of them.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

ShadowPrince said:


> You cannot have done a lot of consulting of those sources based on your take on type 7 here. For one thing, "gluttony" refers primarily to gluttony of the "unusual" involved in dreaming/planning, and the self-idealization (narcissism) is mainly _intellectual_. You appear to have made a lot of confusions between types 2 and 7, as is common with Riso and Hudson students. For example:
> What you are describing here is the grandiosity of "pride," not the intellectual self-idealization of the gluttonous who is much more equalitarian in his or her approach to people.


interesting. I'm not sure I agree with you, but I shall look into it.

...however


> Accordingly, many of your examples are wrong. Madonna, Casanova, Cleopatra, Napoleon Bonaparte, Alexander the Great, and "Scarlett O'Hara" are all 2s. *Almost all of them are even cited and elaborated upon by Naranjo himself as examples of 2s*. Riso and Hudson never had a complete understand of how the enneagram system truly works thus generating many prejudices and misconceptions about types in the process.


I have a very hard time believing that...


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Animal said:


> What about male Sx 2's leading female 8s around by the nose?


The male equivalent of femme fatale? Haha I'm not sure I've ever met any sx 2 guys, actually.

Anyway, a thread for 7 vs 3 would be interesting, indeed.


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## Lotan (Aug 10, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> 7 is much darker and more megalomanic than it is typically portrayed as


EVERYBODY READ THIS

This is important. Four for you, Swordsman of Mana. You go, Swordsman of Mana.

This message brought to you by the council of people sick of people who misinterpret "pleasure-seeking" and "positive outlook" as "someone who giggles and chases butterflies all day, naive to the harsh realities of the world".


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

ShadowPrince said:


> Napoleon Bonaparte was a Social 2. The core of the Social 2 is ambition.


ambition to fulfill their need for acceptance. 2s gain power via social and emotional control, not conquest and sheer force of will

I could conceive the possibility of Madonna being a 2 and the possibilty Casanova being a 2, but Napoleon? 
....no

however, your response prompted me to take a closer look at 2 and, after doing so, I think Darth Vader is actually a 2w3 Sx/Sp.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I think Darth Vader is actually a 2w3 Sx/Sp.


FINALLY a type that is making sense for him! Good call.


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## Midnight Runner (Feb 14, 2010)

Animal said:


> I have no opinion about the people you mentioned - personally I would only weigh in on celebrities after reading their biography and knowing a lot about their lives; and even then I am aware that I'd be typing their 'image' rather than 'who they are,' unless they have a wide enough body of song lyrics and biographies and personal writing to reveal who they are (ie, John Lennon, type 9). However, I will say this. Type 2 is a very misunderstood type. People don't realize that it is part of the POWER triad: 2, 5, and 8. 2s feel power through other people, 5s feel power through knowledge, and 8s feel power through action. Type 2 is not about 'all we need is love' - that's actually a more 9ish sentiment if it has to be classified. Type 2 is about manipulating others to get affection; wearing a mask to be someone who can get what they want out of each person. I'm not saying this to put down 2s, it is just that the basis of 2 is misunderstood and often misrepresented as "aww, they just want to be loved." No, every enneagram type has potential to be really fucked up. Naranjo's 2, in his own words, is closest to an 'id' type and is a master manipulator to have their own way, by way of controlling others. @_Midnight Runner_ please weigh in.





Swordsman of Mana said:


> ambition to fulfill their need for acceptance. 2s gain power via social and emotional control, not conquest and sheer force of will
> 
> I could conceive the possibility of Madonna being a 2 and the possibilty Casanova being a 2, but Napoleon?
> ....no


This, pretty much. Power itself does not suit me very well, but power in others attracts me quite a lot. Important people paying me attention makes me feel important -- important people paying me affection makes me feel loved. I manipulate and cultivate relationships that feed that need. I have my web of people trapped around me, none of whom see what binds them, but all of them continue to come to me to pay me my due. (These days, it's a bit less...disingenuous, though, and more motivated through genuine feelings of affection; I used to feel exactly this way, though I never would have admitted it so blatantly.)

But to actually be the head of something powerful, let alone an empire of that magnitude? Definitely not. That would require a great deal of effort for very little gain, when I can have much the same power through others without the pressures of leadership.


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## ShadowPrince (Jul 6, 2013)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I have a very hard time believing that...


Check out his book Transformation through insight. I only have time to give a few excerpts:

*But most E2s are both tender and aggressive, and even adroit at making scenes. The "make love and war" motto is appropriate to their style — a hybrid of Venus and Mars. In some cases, aggression is compensated through extraordinariness and irresistibility; in others, like the familiar character of Scarlett O’Hara in Gone with the Wind, exploitiveness and selfishness are scarcely hidden under the mask of false love.

...

That desires are more important than principles can, of course, involve more or less anti-social behavior, as in the case of David Copperfield's admired schoolmate, Steerforth, who, like Dr. Faustus, allows himself to seduce and then abandon a girl at a time when this spells socialostracism and catastrophe. Or, in Scarlett O'Hara, whose never-too-scrupulous sense of honor allows her to read the letters that the man she is interested in writes to his wife, to whom she is the hidden rival.

...

I suppose that the most illustrious E2 individuals in history have been Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar and Napoleon; but in view of the association of the personality style with woman, I think it is most appropriate to concentrate here on one of the most striking women of all time: Cleopatra.

In his classic biography of Cleopatra, Emil Ludwig lets us know that already by the age of ten, Cleopatra learned from the failure of her submissive father that, "for a king, pride and haughtiness are above power itself,"
and that enslavement and submission are unworthy."
When it was suggested to her by her advisors that she travel to Rome, like her father had done, to seek the restoration of her throne, she -- “who knew how to choke her feelings when her interests were at stake,
how to disregard her interests when it was a matter of ‘self-esteem,’ — ...immediately rejected the idea. It would be better to kill herself!” (p. 45)
Imperious Cleopatra let her court know that she would make her own decisions, and that her wishes were to be heeded.
“As bold as ingenious, audacious and cunning at the same time” she was cold in combat and assertive in the face of danger; but when it was night time she was completely transformed into a voluptuous and passion-
ate lover — who was said to be a descendent of Venus.
There is a wisdom in the French expression femme fatale that fits the sexual subtype of E2 so well: though it has come to denote mostly irresistibility, it of course alludes to dangerous irresistibility.
Just as Zola's Nana stands out in literature as the femme fatale para excellence, so we may say that Cleopatra stands out among the women in history; and I see the situation most poignantly portrayed at that
moment in her life when she claimed her bridal gift from Anthony after the latter had defeated Julius Caesar. She despised Anthony, and was set to use his weaknesses to dominate him. Writes Ludwig: “Before the map of the
world, Cleopatra demanded her wedding gift: the ancient provinces that had belonged to the Pharaohs more than fifteen hundred years ago.” (P-192) And he completes the reconstitution of the scene adding: “When she finished, he thought: what an expensive woman!” (p. 193)*


Also, here is one of Naranjo's descriptions of Social 2:

*Social E2s seduce groups from a position of power. Social E2s seduce people by being smart and competent. The Social E2 is the "power Two," and is often the owner of the company or the person in charge. This is a more adult Two than the Preservation E2 and can resemble a type 3 or a Type 8.*

The problem with typing Napoleon as a type 8 is that there was too much grandiosity and too little cynicism in him. Type 8 is a cynical character, whose main characteristic is punitiveness and a preoccupation with justice. They are not the stuff of nobility since they are in complicity with their own and others animal underdog.


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## Midnight Runner (Feb 14, 2010)

I suppose the difference here, then, is my being a self-preservation 2 instead of a social 2. Interesting. Thanks for the excerpts, @ShadowPrince.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

@ShadowPrince
....wow
Naranjo makes 2 sound like a cross between 3 and 8 trying to look like a 9


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Um what.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

fourtines said:


> Um what.


what about what?


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> what about what?


Narcissism is generally associated with unhealthy 3s.

And you're focusing on "unhealthy" traits.

It would be like comparing the 9 and the 6 and being like, "ah the schizoid and the paranoid."


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

fourtines said:


> Narcissism is generally associated with unhealthy 3s.


not according to Naranjo
http://personalitycafe.com/type-7-f...ony-fraudulence-narcissistic-personality.html
also, you know the tendencies of my narcissistic ass better than most :laughing:



> And you're focusing on "unhealthy" traits.


of course I am. that's the meat of what Enneagram is



> It would be like comparing the 9 and the 6 and being like, "ah the schizoid and the paranoid."


no, it wouldn't. if would be like if I went into detail about 6's feelings of insecurity vs 9's feelings of insignificance and apathy and the mental patterns that lead to these traits.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

fourtines said:


> Narcissism is generally associated with unhealthy 3s.
> 
> And you're focusing on "unhealthy" traits.
> 
> It would be like comparing the 9 and the 6 and being like, "ah the schizoid and the paranoid."


Vanity is associated with 3s. Vanity is about cultivating an image which you can 'sell' to the world; placing very heavy weight on how you are perceived and your 'value' in the world, thinking you can create your own image to be whatever and whoever you want to be, and if you don't have that image and success you're inherently worthless. Narcissists don't need to do this- they already have the inherent feeling that they're awesome the way they are, and they're entitled to what they want by the sheer awesomeness that they were born with. 

Unhealthy narcissists can't handle criticism and either rationalize it or reframe it into something good. Or they might lash out at the person who criticized them (disintegration to 1) which is called a 'narcissistic tantrum' - basically they disintegrate and become self-righteous and angry when their "I am so awesome" bubble bursts. Or this can happen because they dont get what they want and they feel entitled to it. Contrarily, 3s disintegrate because of their own failures, feeling like they are inherently worthless because they failed at the endeavors they believed would make them worthwhile. Their disintegration to 9 is about being psycho-spiritually lazy like a 9 - losing touch with who they really are, in and of themselves; any inherent sense of worth they have just for being themselves can no longer be seen in the psychospiritual haze. Where a core 9 would say "nothing matters or has inherent value" an unhealthy 3 would say "_I _have no inherent value." Unhealthy 3s might end up working even harder to obtain their "value" while losing sight of who they really are. This is the essence of _vanity_ - having to be a certain way; dress or act or cultivate an image to have worth. Makeup and masks is what vanity is made of; that's why the mirror in your bathroom is called a 'vanity.' Vanity is about making yourself into what you want to be. As Naranjo calls this mindset "the marketing orientation" - which is his title for type 3. Their very self is a product to be refined and marketed.

An inherent feeling that you're worthless unless you cultivate a lifestyle or a worthwhile image, which leads to this vanity, is almost opposite of what narcissism is, being that narcissism is a feeling that you're inherently special and deserving of whatever it is that you want. That mindset leads to gluttony, because 7s feel they deserve whatever they want and deserve to be admired, so they're gluttons for anything they want, including admiration.

_____________
@_Tater Tot_ - tagging you since you were thinking of writing a 7 vs. 3 thread. Would love your input, or feel free to use this if you want.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Animal said:


> Vanity is associated with 3s. Vanity is about cultivating an image which you can 'sell' to the world; placing very heavy weight on how you are perceived and your 'value' in the world, thinking you can create your own image to be whatever and whoever you want to be, and if you don't have that image and success you're inherently worthless. Narcissists don't need to do this- they already have the inherent feeling that they're awesome the way they are, and they're entitled to what they want by the sheer awesomeness that they were born with.
> 
> Unhealthy narcissists can't handle criticism and either rationalize it or reframe it into something good. Or they might lash out at the person who criticized them (disintegration to 1) which is called a 'narcissistic tantrum' - basically they disintegrate and become self-righteous and angry when their "I am so awesome" bubble bursts. Or this can happen because they dont get what they want and they feel entitled to it. Contrarily, 3s disintegrate because of their own failures, feeling like they are inherently worthless because they failed at the endeavors they believed would make them worthwhile. Their disintegration to 9 is about being psycho-spiritually lazy like a 9 - losing touch with who they really are, in and of themselves; any inherent sense of worth they have just for being themselves can no longer be seen in the psychospiritual haze. Where a core 9 would say "nothing matters or has inherent value" an unhealthy 3 would say "_I _have no inherent value." Unhealthy 3s might end up working even harder to obtain their "value" while losing sight of who they really are. This is the essence of _vanity_ - having to be a certain way; dress or act or cultivate an image to have worth. Makeup and masks is what vanity is made of; that's why the mirror in your bathroom is called a 'vanity.' Vanity is about making yourself into what you want to be. As Naranjo calls this mindset "the marketing orientation" - which is his title for type 3. Their very self is a product to be refined and marketed.
> 
> ...



Thank you!
In Enneagram theory, narcissism, in terms of type neurosis, is associated with type 7 not 3. 8s are also described as phallic narcissists, by Naranjo. In some ways, all 3 id types are narcissistic. The phallic narcissistic profile fits the outward characteristics of all 3 id types. 

You've covered the reasons why 7 is termed the Narcissist, very well. 7s have an inherent sense of entitlement which 3s don't have. The narcissism of 7s is assumed, and a 3 has to work to maintain an image of superiority/of being a winner. It's not true/innate narcissism. It's a cultivated self-image. 

Constant effort goes into sustaining that image, and while they may be self-loving and self-affirming, as in image type, they need external affirmation of worth (which for SP 3s comes from wealth for example) and recognition. 7s feel entitled to greatness, by virtue of merely existing. 3s believe in their greatness, and have to constantly work to maintain that self-image by racking up achievements. This constant striving (Ego-Go as Ichazo termed it) not vital to the 7's ego ideal at all, even if they can be as competitive and goal oriented as a 3. Most 3s don't actually feel they're worthless at a conscious level, since they tend to have high self-esteem and high levels of confidence in their ability unless unhealthy. But, at the core, their sense of worth is entangled with how they're perceived and what they accomplish (which adds to the socially valued construct of success). This is why 3 is a shame/image type. Going down in health results in inauthentic/false pretenses or presenting an image at odds with who one really is in 3s, and it results in fraudulence and manipulation (charm) via distortion of facts in 7s. It's why they're termed charlatans. 

On that note,7s also tend to compare themselves to others and there's a tendency to evaluate oneself relative to others, this is especially pronounced when the 7 is under stress (line to 1). This is still different from the jealousy of a 3, because it's fueled by a desire to be "seen" as better. The realm of perception is an image type's playground. The 7 evaluates their standing within because narcissism engenders the belief that they're naturally at a higher/better standing than others. Where there's defense (against feeling there may be a possibility that the 7 isn't as fuckin awesome as they feel entitled to being), there's pain. Here's what Palmer has to say:



> The pain of narcissists is that they may be unveiled as less than what they believe themselves to be. There is an inner question, Where do I stand? Am I better than who I find myself with, or am I really worse? Who stands higher here? Is it me or is it my friend? In pathology the answer is always, I stand higher. For Sevens who are working on themselves, the question of comparative value is still alive in their thoughts, but can be used as a reminder to pay attention to their objective capabilities.


You've said exactly what I've wanted to say about this. It's a HUGE misconception that you've addressed there. There's something I wrote on another thread about 3/7s and optimism that also touches on similar themes. I'll look it up and share.

Here we go:-


> The optimism of the 3 is said to cover up feelings of "hopelessness" such that the 3 feels the need to be in control and maintain a certain watchfulness in order to ensure that things go as they plan/want them to.


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[This is part of the reason why 3s are not actual narcissists like 7s. 7s feel entitled to the good life and expect it. A pathological narcissist simply assumes his or her own mental superiority, and therefore feels entitled to recognition and support. This is where 7 is correlated with narcissism, whereas a 3 driven by a deep sense of hopelessness (whether felt as such or not) is in a constant state of striving, quite unlike the mindset of a true narcissist)]_




> The 7's optimism (Naranjo describes it as a "cosmic optimism"-- a sense that everything is alright in the world, and there is no need to struggle) is biased in the "you're ok. i am ok. everything is ok" direction, and this results in a certain blindness (again, I use the term figuratively) or turning away from the more painful, limiting aspects of life, which, at times, means a distaste for focused hard work. 7s are known to have problems with self-discipline, and 3s are known to have problems with slowing down and relaxing. The 7's optimism can cause them to deny/positively reframe negative situations/feelings/thoughts in order to keep up the self-image of things being ok; whereas,* the 3's optimism underlies an anxiety about continuing to work and remain in control or else they may cease to be successful (therefore worthy of love) or useful. This validation of worth through action (and becoming a "human doing") is not an optimistic or narcissistic strategy at the level of fixation.* Sure, a 3 can reframe their limitations positively and often do. That's part of what maintains their self-image of "greatness". That is a "narcissistic" approach that 3s, 7s and even 8s share in common.


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