# Enneagram dichotomies



## darude11 (Jul 6, 2011)

I like the systems... you know, like MBTI...

Where you have questions and two (or more) answers.
I don't see the persons individualy, I see persons by groups in which they are sorted. I don't see e. g. INTJ as Strategist (googled it ), I see him as introverted human, which wants to lead people based on his predictions.

So... point is: Are there some... questions or something like that? I don't like to look at each personality individualy, I like grouping them.


/On other thread was mentioned the link with the scientific proof on Enneagram, where were described chemicals. If you want to, you can describe, how to detect members of groups, here is the link: The Enneagram Blogspot: Scientific Proof for the Enneagram


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## n2freedom (Jun 2, 2011)

Thanks for sharing this information. My alternative practitioner is really big on Braverman's personality assessment. Here is the link if you are interested Braverman Personality Assessment.

Anyway a friend of mine, who I belive is a type 5, was having major panic attacks as a result of the stress endured from his mom being very sick. And, I recommended that he look into GABA deficiency. After reading this article, I wonder if it really it was his dopamine levels that had been exhausted.

I must do more research. I enjoy the Enneagram and have found the information for my personality type to be more descriptive of me than my MBTI. Please share as you find out more info. Thanks again! :-D


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## Manhattan (Jul 13, 2011)

Thank you. If accurate, this is very useful information. Because of this I am now looking up ways to increase dopamine to see if it has a positive effect on my drive. Reading this article now: How Do I Increase Dopamine In The Brain? | LIVESTRONG.COM


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## darude11 (Jul 6, 2011)

Interesting articles you've got


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## PixieSaysHi (Oct 9, 2010)

@ManhattanINTP The best way to get a dopamine increase naturally is to exercise (cardio) for 30 minutes daily. The endorphine increase doesn't last for long and you'll get that pick-me-up feel for several hours after exercising. The longer you stay in this routine, the more the dopamine will increase, stabilize and be more consistent. 

There is a psychotropic med out there, Wellbutrin, that acts on dopamine alone but I have seen the negative effects of psychotropic meds and would never recommend them. They are still drugs that affect the brain and it's not healthy to mess with these neurotransmitters by altering them artificially...that will only set a person up for tolerance withdrawal and withdrawal when trying stop the med. 

All one has to do is google benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome to see the long lasting and sometime permanent effects from taking this class of drug (enhances GABA, the calming neurotransmitter). Anti-depressants, anti-psychotics and stimulants will do the same but the withdrawal syndrome isn't as severe.

The best way for a person to get his neurotransmitters in sync is through regular exercise, meditation/relaxation, healthy diet, enough sleep and keeping stress to a minimum. Over time the body will regulate and gain homeostasis on it's own. Unfortunately, the quick fix is what most in our society want...and a pill is the way to do that...but there is almost always a price to pay for that in the long run.

People don't want to hear the old exercise/diet spiel because it requires more self-discipline and action on their part.


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## Manhattan (Jul 13, 2011)

Thank you, Pixie. I would never take any prescription drug without very good reason, so that's off the table. I'm much more open to supplements, though every supplement I'm finding (I.E. L-Tyrosine) for Dopamine also increases norepinephrine, which I'm not interested in.

The exercise thing is kind of a let down, because while I'm not looking for an easy fix, I'm looking for something that lasts more than a few hours. Not that I don't already exercise for other reasons, I was just hoping it would help this specific thing more. Meditation is encouraging, as it's something I'm open to and already do occasionally. I'm trying to find out how long the dopamine spike lasts for meditation.


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## PixieSaysHi (Oct 9, 2010)

Exercise will give you that quick fix but it will also help long term if it is consistent. That's the key. For myself, I've found it takes about two weeks to feel the continuous effect. Anxiety and depression are reduced...not just temporarily.

Maybe rather than the supplements you could try eating foods high in tyrosine. I know that is a precursor to dopamine. Also, tyrosine isn't an essential amino acid so your body should be able to get it from other sources in the body if you're low. 

It's all so tricky and instability in one neurotransmitter seems to have a cascading effect on all the others. I've been trying to figure out how to get my dopamine levels up naturally myself. The anhedonia, apathy and lack of motivation makes me feel as if I have no self-discipline and am lazy which just increases guilt and it becomes a vicious cycle. 

Please let me know if you discover anything interesting on this. I want to figure this out.


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## darude11 (Jul 6, 2011)

Just one question: What If in everything ending with A (1A, 2A etc.) I've got 19 or more? Is it really bad?


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## PixieSaysHi (Oct 9, 2010)

In the dominant part or the deficiency part? I took it and had two that were higher than 19 in the dominant section and one at 19 in the deficiency section.

It is a bit confusing. I would focus on your highest score (in the first test/dominant part) and your lowest score indicates deficiency in the second test. Those are the two I would look at.

For example, the first test (dominant) my highest score was dopamine which, I think, means I am a dopamine driven personality type?
The second test (for deficiency) I scored lowest in dopamine indicating I have a dopamine deficiency. Which also supports your science behind the enneagram because I am type 5/dopamine deficient.

This is all pretty kick ass, imo. Thanks for the info.


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## darude11 (Jul 6, 2011)

Well, I hadn't time for second test, here are results from first one:
27 - GABA
26 - Dopamine
24 - Acetylcholine
19 - Serotonin

I am type 5, so I should have (due to the article in first post) average serotonin, high norepinepherine and low dopamine... hmm... that don't even fit... by those facts I could be... only type, which has more dopamine than serotonin, so... hmhmhmm... I could be 1, 2, 4, 6 or 7. Well, I will go on tommorow, it is quater to twelve p.m. at GMT +1... Good night for now!


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

Medication really depends on the individual. I've been on Klonopin since 2004, sometimes taking it up to 3 times a day, and I have never had withdrawal from it when I go several days without taking any because my anxiety is better controlled. Wellbutrin made me vomit very severely (maybe I was allergic?) and I was bipolar, besides, and more in need of a mood stabilizer. I've gained weight from Zyprexa (what I take now for my bipolar), but I was anorexic when I started it and I have a fast metabolism so I'm still thinner than the average American. Also exercise only occasionally helps my depression. Yoga works the best. I used to exercise hours and hours a day and I was still severely depressed. I know it works for many people, though.


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## PixieSaysHi (Oct 9, 2010)

unico said:


> Medication really depends on the individual. I've been on Klonopin since 2004, sometimes taking it up to 3 times a day, and I have never had withdrawal from it when I go several days without taking any because my anxiety is better controlled. Wellbutrin made me vomit very severely (maybe I was allergic?) and I was bipolar, besides, and more in need of a mood stabilizer. I've gained weight from Zyprexa (what I take now for my bipolar), but I was anorexic when I started it and I have a fast metabolism so I'm still thinner than the average American. Also exercise only occasionally helps my depression. Yoga works the best. I used to exercise hours and hours a day and I was still severely depressed. I know it works for many people, though.


The reason you may not feel any withdrawals from the Klonopin is because it has a longer half life. I didn't feel any withdrawals until the 6th day. JMHO, but I would try to get off that stuff using a slow taper. Benzos are just pure evil, imo.


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

PixieSaysHi said:


> The reason you may not feel any withdrawals from the Klonopin is because it has a longer half life. I didn't feel any withdrawals until the 6th day. JMHO, but I would try to get off that stuff using a slow taper. Benzos are just pure evil, imo.


Actually I have gone weeks without it. I just don't get withdrawal from it.


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

PixieSaysHi said:


> The reason you may not feel any withdrawals from the Klonopin is because it has a longer half life. I didn't feel any withdrawals until the 6th day. JMHO, but I would try to get off that stuff using a slow taper. Benzos are just pure evil, imo.


And if I want medication advice I will ask for it. Actually I'm very knowledgeable about psych meds due to being on so many and discussions with my psychiatrist.


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## PixieSaysHi (Oct 9, 2010)

unico said:


> And if I want medication advice I will ask for it. Actually I'm very knowledgeable about psych meds due to being on so many and discussions with my psychiatrist.


I apologize for offering my unsolicited advice. The purpose was to help inform anyone that may not be aware of the dangers of psychotropic meds. I also have a lot of experience with these drugs and have endured the most horrific withdrawal this past year because a doctor, who is supposed to be knowledgeable about these drugs, prescribed a benzodiazepine for sleep. Most trust their doctors but the reality is, the FDA, big pharma and psychiatrists all hide the fact that anxiolytics, anti-psychotics, stimulants and anti-depressants are drugs that affect the brain no different than street drugs. Over time, they suppress the various receptors in the brain, shutting down our natural ability to create neurotransmitters such as serotonin, norepinephrine, dopamine, acetylcholine, GABA, etc. If the drugs are not increased, tolerance withdrawal occurs. What is really sad, often the patients themselves are so poly-drugged at this point they are unaware of the changes in their own personality causing them to deny the drugs are the problem.

The last statement is not directed at you. These are just my own personal observations from experience and research. I am also a therapist who has witness countless clients (sadly children as well as adults) experience this withdrawal phenomenon. So this is an issue in which I am passionate about raising awareness.


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## Manhattan (Jul 13, 2011)

Heh, a classmate in my abnormal psych class was having mild depression, so her doctor prescribed her with meds of which the side effects included reduced depression, not the primary function. Then he gave her stuff to treat the effects of the first meds, and so on. According to her, she ended up with Parkinson's and she walks around with an umbrella because of sensitivity to sunlight. 

I wish I knew what drugs, but it was years ago. All I remember is one of them was an antipsychotic and the way I described it was how our professor broke it down to us. He also said it wasn't that uncommon and to NEVER let a family doctor write your a prescription for psych meds. Good advice. 

You seem to know a lot, Pixie! Very helpful. 

And sorry, I'm still trying to find out if meditation induces a long term change in dopamine levels or not. I have a question you may be able to help me with: If frequent mediators are shown to be less anxious, would it mean they have decreased norepinephrine levels? If they were shown to be more joyous, would that be an indicator of higher dopamine? What effects would you say thoughts have on neurotransmitter levels/balance?


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## PixieSaysHi (Oct 9, 2010)

Depending on how many years ago, she was probably on an older anti-psychotic which are well known for causing TD (tardive dyskinesia). The drugs don't actually cause Parkinson's but do affect dopamine levels and Parkinson's has to do with an imbalance in dopamine. Does she have involuntary movements of the limbs? That would be TD. It's unfortunately a permanent condition caused by the APs (anti-psychotics). Even the newer APs cause it although they have been marketed as being safe. 

I'm not sure what could be the cause of the light sensitivity. I do know that is a common BZD (benzodiazepine) symptom but I have never heard of it being permanent although I am sure it's possible.

And I don't really know if medication induces any long term changes in dopamine levels. More than likely what happens is the shape of the receptors are permanently damaged so even if the dopamine levels are returned to a normal level, the reuptake is not as effective due to the damaged receptor. 

Also, one thing I disagree with on the OPs link, having a "high" level of a neurotransmitter is not a good thing, as the graph indicates. I think it would be more accurate if the levels were "very low, low and normal" rather than "low, neutral and high". One doesn't want to have high serotonin, dopamine, etc. levels as psychological symptoms will also emerge. 

For example, high dopamine levels are indicative of schizophrenia as psychosis develops with symptoms such as hallucinations and paranoia. Low levels would indicate apathy and low motivation/desire or a type of anhedonia (inability to feel pleasure).

If one has too much serotonin (normally only caused by SSRI's) a sometimes fatal condition known as serotonin syndrome can occur. As far as anxiety is concerned, my guess would be that has more to do with the CNS flight/fight response...the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems...glutamate and GABA are the accelerator/brake but norepinephrine plays a role. Personally, I have not done enough research to fully grasp how all the neurotransmitters interplay. 

It truly is fascinating, though. Oh, and to answer your last question....I am only just beginning to embark on this myself. I am coming to believe our thought processes have an enormous impact on neurotransmitter balance....which is one of the reasons I think meditation can be just as effective as medication.


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## Manhattan (Jul 13, 2011)

I was under the impression that TD diminished with time? Good to know. I don't remember what her symptoms were, as it was years ago. 

Good to see we're both searching in the same area. I'm very excited about it. Intuitively I think that yes, our thoughts can have a significant impact on neurotransmitters. It seems like if we were thinking anxious thoughts, for example, we'd HAVE to produce norepinephrine to maintain. Time will tell.


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## aestrivex (Mar 7, 2011)

i will talk to esper about having this article deleted from her blog. it is pure speculation with no evidence whatsoever, and absolutely insane speculation at that if you understand anything about how neurotransmitters work and the total mess of relating neurotransmitters to personality.


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## PixieSaysHi (Oct 9, 2010)

actually there is quite a substantial amount of information regarding the connection between neurotransmitters and personality.


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## aestrivex (Mar 7, 2011)

PixieSaysHi said:


> actually there is quite a substantial amount of information regarding the connection between neurotransmitters and personality.


i know of plenty of highly disconnected studies interpretable with respect to high-level personality structure only with great difficulty, if at all. personally when i looked at this body of literature around two years ago i made absolutely no sense of it and decided it had very little to tell me. hence the "total mess," particularly when morons on the internet waltz in and post official-sounding articles about how the relationship between neurobiological measures and personality is clean and simple (i am critiquing EI here and to some extent the owner of enneagramblogspot who i know personally, and not the OP who obviously didn't know any better).


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## Manhattan (Jul 13, 2011)

So then, you don't agree with the methods of the dissertation?


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## aestrivex (Mar 7, 2011)

ManhattanINTP said:


> So then, you don't agree with the methods of the dissertation?


what dissertation?


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## Manhattan (Jul 13, 2011)

The Enneagram Institute: Research


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## aestrivex (Mar 7, 2011)

ManhattanINTP said:


> The Enneagram Institute: Research


i hadn't heard of it, but yes, if the work is well represented by that abstract it is completely idiotic and meaningless work. factor analysis on an inventory that shows that the inventory measures what it is supposed to measure does not constitute empirical proof that "the enneagram is a validated personality typing system." the claim is completely braindead. basically stop being a psychometrics whore and go interpret some meaningful clinical/behavioral data.


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## Manhattan (Jul 13, 2011)

PixieSaysHi said:


> actually there is quite a substantial amount of information regarding the connection between neurotransmitters and personality.


Something just occurred to me. Introverts are more sensitive to dopamine, so the value judgement of Type Fives having low dopamine may be missing the point. It's in the red, but perhaps it should be in yellow for introvert Fives. 

(How do you use mentions?)


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## PixieSaysHi (Oct 9, 2010)

ManhattanINTP said:


> Something just occurred to me. Introverts are more sensitive to dopamine, so the value judgement of Type Fives having low dopamine may be missing the point. It's in the red, but perhaps it should be in yellow for introvert Fives.
> 
> (How do you use mentions?)



introverts are more sensitive to dopamine? can you link me info. on this? 

mentions = @username


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## Manhattan (Jul 13, 2011)

@PixieSaysHi

Introverts — Different Brain Pathways and Neurotransmitters « Writing from the Edge 2

INTJ - Dopamine vs. Acetylcholine and Blood Flow


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## darude11 (Jul 6, 2011)

Are there any more chemicals that shape personality? I mean - the blue guy above me mentioned the Acetylcholine, but I have no idea what it is for. So, are there any else chemicals? If yes, please mention the effect. Thanks!


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## Manhattan (Jul 13, 2011)

darude11 said:


> Are there any more chemicals that shape personality? I mean - the blue guy above me mentioned the Acetylcholine, but I have no idea what it is for. So, are there any else chemicals? If yes, please mention the effect. Thanks!


*Extroverts:*


> The activities of our brains are catalyzed by neurotransmitters, which are chemical substances that transmit nerve impulses. Extroverts require greater amounts of dopamine, a central neurotransmitter in the sympathetic nervous system. It is produced when people are active and in motion. As psychologist and author Marti Olsen Laney writes, "extroverts feel good when they have places to go and people to see," probably because they are flush with dopamine. Dopamine takes a short path through the brain and, in stressful situations, produces an "act and react" response. It can be credited for extroverts' ability to think and speak quickly and to thrive under pressure. It also helps them access their short-term memory more rapidly, so their data-processing circuit is shorter and faster.


*Introverts:*


> Introverts, on the other hand, require less dopamine, and when our brains have too much, we can feel anxious or overwhelmed. Our brains rely more on another neurotransmitter, acetylcholine, a neurotransmitter of the parasympathetic nervous system, which conserves and restores energy, producing a "rest and repose" posture. It produces a pleasurable sensation in introverts when we are thinking and reflecting. Acetylcholine, however, cuts a longer path through the brain, which explains why introverts may have difficulty accessing words or memories quickly and why we may be slow to react in stressful situation.


@_PixieSaysHi_ Arlene R Taylor PhD--Norepinephrine Levels--Realizations Inc. This seems to support what I've heard before about introverts having more active minds, and so when they're forced into the outside world, they take in more information and exhaustively run it through their heads on multiple levels. Ever hear a sentence and think of it's meaning 2-3 ways, while still listening to the next sentence? For an introvert, certain stimulus is like staring at the sun. 

I have a theory that for introverts, one of the best things we can do is train our minds to cope with this high level of activity, to realize it's benefits without it's drawbacks. I believe the best way to do this is the same as the best way to work our cardiovascular system: Proper nutrition, intense exercise at varying durations, and plenty of rest. Rest includes meditation as much as sleep. It seems to have worked for me so far.


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## n2freedom (Jun 2, 2011)

@ManhattanINTP and @PixieSaysHi

I really enjoy both of your posts. If I understand you correctly are you saying that the Personality shape/influence our levels of neurotransmitters? If so, that's interesting because my alternative health practitioner insists it is the opposite that our levels of neurotransmitters shape/influence our personality. Nonetheless, he still insists without the proper levels certain personalityt traits are present. 

He based his findings on Dr. Braverman's reserach. Are you familiar with him? I have read a little bit about it. But after you and Pixie's post I am not more intrigued than ever and it will be my pet research project for the week. Thanks for sharing this info and please continue to share more as you discover it.

The links:
http://douglaslabs.com/pdf/nutrinews/The%20Edge%20Effect%20NN%20(Spring-05).pdf

http://advancedpsychcare.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/braverman.test.pdf

Neurotransmitters


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## darude11 (Jul 6, 2011)

So... If I got it right, then you say, that:

There is no introvert, which would be 2, 7 or 9. (or those with high dopamine)
There is no extrovert, which would be 1, 3 or 5. (or those with low dopamine)

Right?


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## Manhattan (Jul 13, 2011)

n2freedom said:


> @_ManhattanINTP_ and @_PixieSaysHi_
> 
> I really enjoy both of your posts. If I understand you correctly are you saying that the Personality shape/influence our levels of neurotransmitters? If so, that's interesting because my alternative health practitioner insists it is the opposite that our levels of neurotransmitters shape/influence our personality. Nonetheless, he still insists without the proper levels certain personalityt traits are present.
> 
> ...


Very interesting and useful links. I'm looking at supplements suggested for certain deficiencies in the test now. 

From what I interpreted, we were discussing the possibility that while neurotransmitters affect personality, long term cognitive changes may affect neurotransmitters. For example, high norepinephrine has been linked to introversion based on the link I put in my last post. High norepinephrine causes anxiety. So, if one were to become less anxious by meditating/cognitive behavioral therapy/biofeedback, wouldn't their norepinephrine levels drop? And wouldn't introversion drop? I know that I've become less introverted as my anxiety levels have decreased. 

I completely forgot to take that test you posted. I'm taking it now. 

Nature:
1A: 31
2A: 32
3A: 28
4A: 29

Deficiencies: 
1B: 6
2B: 5 
3B: 7
4B: 7



darude11 said:


> So... If I got it right, then you say, that:
> 
> There is no introvert, which would be 2, 7 or 9. (or those with high dopamine)
> There is no extrovert, which would be 1, 3 or 5. (or those with low dopamine)
> ...


There is no introvert/extrovert? I don't understand. What everything posted so far would seem to suggest: 

*Likely* to be extroverted:

3, 7, 8

*Likely *to be introverted:

4, 5, 6

*Likely *somewhere in the middle: 

1(More extro), 2 (Middle), 9 (More intro)

That's using low dopamine levels as a primary determinant of introversion, and high norepinephrine second.


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## darude11 (Jul 6, 2011)

ManhattanINTP said:


> There is no introvert/extrovert? I don't understand. What everything posted so far would seem to suggest:
> 
> *Likely* to be extroverted:
> 
> ...


Well, I meant it like shortend version of "Types 134568 can be introverts.", but then I realised, that the types 4, 6 and 8 can be extroverts too, so I said, which they are not. I usually do it like that when I am typing people IRL with Enneagram. I mean - not like the thing with Introverts/Extroverts - I am not sure about it yet.

But you already described it. If I got it then, it could look like this:
(E) 3=7=8>1>2>9>4=5=6 (I)
describes how much extroversion should be found in each type. Is it right?

And one more thing: How is high norepinepherine introverted? Thank you for helping by the way!


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## Manhattan (Jul 13, 2011)

I'd imagine that high norepinephrine leads to high anxiety and an overactive mind, which is an introvert problem. Extroverts seek stimulation, while introverts are already stimulated, so more stimulation is exhausting. 

Your scale looks good.


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## n2freedom (Jun 2, 2011)

@ManhattanINTP.. *I love your brain!!!* 

Thanks for clarifying. It makes a lot of sense. What strategies have you used for meditation/relaxation? I will look at your results more closely when I get home this evening. Please keep me posted on whatever information you discover. And, I will do the same.


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## PixieSaysHi (Oct 9, 2010)

ManhattanINTP said:


> I'd imagine that high norepinephrine leads to high anxiety and an overactive mind, which is an introvert problem. Extroverts seek stimulation, while introverts are already stimulated, so more stimulation is exhausting.
> 
> Your scale looks good.


I feel constantly overstimulated by the outside work. This makes sense. I have just made a decision today that I will probably leave my job and try working from home. It is a huge risk but, I swear, I cannot take working with people anymore...it is completely depleting me of all energy. And, @ManhattanINTP , I agree, as my anxiety level decreases, I become more extroverted, too. 

It is a weird paradox. My thinking is that if I can work from home with minimal contact with people, then I will actually have more energy left over in the evenings and on the weekends to actually socialize with friends every now and then. 

The pressure of having to be "on" is so unbelievably draining to me I feel like I have to make a change. 

@darude11 My apologies in advance for sort of hijacking this thread.


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## Manhattan (Jul 13, 2011)

n2freedom said:


> @_ManhattanINTP_ .. *I love your brain!!!*
> 
> Thanks for clarifying. It makes a lot of sense. What strategies have you used for meditation/relaxation? I will look at your results more closely when I get home this evening. Please keep me posted on whatever information you discover. And, I will do the same.


I do weight work and cardio work (cardio with HIIT) to expend my excess energy. That first step makes any relaxation techniques that follow much more effective, of course. As for meditating, I started out by simply slowly counting my breaths from 10 to 1 and then repeating until an alarm I had set went off. Eventually I got to the point where I could keep my mind blank without a mantra, but I fell out of the swing and am back to counting my breaths. Either way, after I began meditating, my concentration was permanently improved and I'm able to turn off stress like a switch. Meditation induces permanent changes in the brain, so even if you don't keep up with it, it will continue to benefit you. (Elsevier)



PixieSaysHi said:


> I feel constantly overstimulated by the outside work. This makes sense. I have just made a decision today that I will probably leave my job and try working from home. It is a huge risk but, I swear, I cannot take working with people anymore...it is completely depleting me of all energy. And, @_ManhattanINTP_ , I agree, as my anxiety level decreases, I become more extroverted, too.
> 
> It is a weird paradox. My thinking is that if I can work from home with minimal contact with people, then I will actually have more energy left over in the evenings and on the weekends to actually socialize with friends every now and then.
> 
> The pressure of having to be "on" is so unbelievably draining to me I feel like I have to make a change.


I look at our nervous system the same way I do our musculatory system and our cardiovascular: All systems are designed to preserve energy, but are able to grow their energy reserves if they are depleted and have adequate time to recharge. You work a muscle until near failure, take the proper nutrients to repair the damage, and rest. Next time, the muscle will have larger energy reserves to expend, and so on. Though, without adequate nutrition and rest, muscles actually shrink from work. 

The brain isn't any different. I've combated what used to be extreme introversion by tiring myself out often, then giving myself plenty of time to rest. So far, so good. The point is, perhaps you can take a vacation/blow off your friends more for alone time and adapt to your workload?


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## n2freedom (Jun 2, 2011)

ManhattanINTP said:


> Meditation induces permanent changes in the brain, so even if you don't keep up with it, it will continue to benefit you. (Elsevier)


Okay I'm sold.... Thanks for the information. I think I am going to start back meditating. What are your thoughts on guided visualization? Does it have the same effect or not really? 

Great information on the link you included. I'm really interested in this concept of self-referential processing. Upon first glance, a lot of it is going over my head so I will have to take my time to digest this information. WOW! What a truckload of information. I need to compare some notes and really delve into it. Thanks again for this information. I believe meditation is my missing link.



ManhattanINTP said:


> I look at our nervous system the same way I do our musculatory system and our cardiovascular: All systems are designed to preserve energy, but are able to grow their energy reserves if they are depleted and have adequate time to recharge. You work a muscle until near failure, take the proper nutrients to repair the damage, and rest. Next time, the muscle will have larger energy reserves to expend, and so on. Though, without adequate nutrition and rest, muscles actually shrink from work.
> 
> The brain isn't any different. I've combated what used to be extreme introversion by tiring myself out often, then giving myself plenty of time to rest. So far, so good. The point is, perhaps you can take a vacation/blow off your friends more for alone time and adapt to your workload?


Very insightful. I never thought about it this way. You make an excellent point.


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## Manhattan (Jul 13, 2011)

n2freedom said:


> Okay I'm sold.... Thanks for the information. I think I am going to start back meditating. What are your thoughts on guided visualization? Does it have the same effect or not really?


In my opinion, guided meditation is more like relaxation than a mental exercise. The meditation that has always worked for me is focusing on having as little as possible in your mind, ensuring a direct mastery over your thoughts. The counting thing is just something you can focus on at the exclusion of all else. 

Meditation is really powerful when mastered. In Tum-mo meditation, Tibetan monks drape wet towels over their body and dry them off by raising their body temperature. Then there is the more extreme example of monks that would practice self-immolation as a means of protest against oppressive political practices that never moved a muscle. If we can even have 1/4th of the focused discipline the monks needed to set themselves on fire and not flinch, what could possibly disturb us if we didn't allow it? What couldn't we will ourselves to do? 



n2freedom said:


> @ManhattanINTP.. *I love your brain!!!*


That's very sweet. =) I love how interested you are in getting to know other types and their interactions with one another. You create very useful threads.


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