# Question about Pornography



## marzipan01 (Jun 6, 2010)

For pretty much my whole life, I haven't had any real opinion on pornography. I led a fairly sheltered life so I wasn't really exposed to it. Then, you know, as I got older, I started dating guys and hanging out with guys and I found out there is a lot of pornography out there and almost everyone looks at it. 

Okay, so I was curious about it and wanted to see what it was all about. Initially I was curious. Then, I was fairly disgusted. I've been to the strip club only once to see what that was about. I talked to these women. It was really talking to them that made me feel disturbed. These women who are involved in making pornography and stripping they do this for a living because people pay for it. 

Some of these women do it because they're slightly dumb, some do it because they are strapped for cash (I met a stripper who was a single mother of two children). I mean either way, I feel like this really grosses me out. If it is unethical to fuck a twelve year old it should be just as unethical to fuck someone who is not cognitively aware--whether they're 20 or 15, if they're not emotionally aware enough to recognize they're being degraded and that it isn't worth it, then it's rape. And I don't see how paying someone to have sex (prostitution) is any different than paying for someone to have sex on camera (pornography). 

I have nothing against the women who do this. It's actually that I have the opposite problem. All I can think about is how the men are reducing them to body parts in their minds. The perversion, the degradation and that these women are allowing these men to do that to them for some reason. Maybe it was because no one ever taught them that there was more to them and to life than money and people looking at you. Maybe it's because they like it when they're useful and all eyes are on them. Maybe it's because they were pushed into forced sex slavery, addicted to drugs that forced them to find a way to pay for their habits, maybe they just hate the idea of being on welfare and see the job as less degrading than working at Mcdonalds. I'm not sure but all I can say is the way that these women get attention and get their money is not respect. 

This woman told me that the first time she stripped a gang of guys she went to high school with showed up for a bachelor party. They cheered, "I've wanted to see you naked since high school!" This story made me want to throw up. 

How can we live in a society that so easily engages in the degradation of our fellow humans? How can you watch porn without thinking about who these people are and why they do what they do? How can you watch it without thinking about how just by watching it you are endorsing an enterprise that enslaves, abuses, and degrades women like that?


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

@marzipan01
a few unrelated points

- porn has never really done much for me, that being said, I don't see anything wrong with it
- if you fuck a 20 year old and she consents to it, that is not unethical. 
- that being said, I don't tend to get much of a kick out of any pre-packaged sexual product. I'm more into "let's get to know each other and if it turns into sex, let's role with it" deliberately meeting someone and trying to get sex from each other is weird to me and far too socially ritualized to be sexy
- if they are choosing to be porn stars and strippers and making money from it, I see no reason to pity them. if they want a better job they should get one. if they like their job, good for them. either way, one has no responsibility to thing about the porn stars while they're watching it.


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## Obsidean (Mar 24, 2010)

Maybe men who go see prostitutes are slightly dumb or aren't cognitively aware. It's a two way street imo.


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## jackeyjoe (Oct 23, 2011)

marzipan01 said:


> For pretty much my whole life, I haven't had any real opinion on pornography. I led a fairly sheltered life so I wasn't really exposed to it. Then, you know, as I got older, I started dating guys and hanging out with guys and I found out there is a lot of pornography out there and almost everyone looks at it.


I was (well, am) the same as you really, stayed away from it and other things... and still try to because I don't see the reason for it. Anyways, I was over at a friends place for a bit of fun before we went out clubbing(I kinda like it, but I only go out for the dancing and the socialising), there were around 15 of us and someone came up with the brilliant idea of having a browse through my friends porn folder. Needless to say, I and three or four other people walked out straight away and started talking between ourselves... but really? Surely 10 people in a room of both sexes watching pornography is a bit weird?



marzipan01 said:


> I have nothing against the women who do this. It's actually that I have the opposite problem. All I can think about is how the men are reducing them to body parts in their minds. The perversion, the degradation and that these women are allowing these men to do that to them for some reason. Maybe it was because no one ever taught them that there was more to them and to life than money and people looking at you. Maybe it's because they like it when they're useful and all eyes are on them. Maybe it's because they were pushed into forced sex slavery, addicted to drugs that forced them to find a way to pay for their habits, maybe they just hate the idea of being on welfare and see the job as less degrading than working at Mcdonalds. I'm not sure but all I can say is the way that these women get attention and get their money is not respect.


Unfortunately they care about the money and attention more than their self respect... there are people like this in the world, all you can really do is hold your head high and make sure you don't follow a similar path roud:


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## Manhattan (Jul 13, 2011)

Do you have the same feelings of disgust towards how male strippers are treated? 



marzipan01 said:


> ...if they're not emotionally aware enough to recognize they're being degraded and that it isn't worth it, then it's rape.


Is this in the case of the "dumb" strippers, or all strippers? 

I wouldn't say a stripper is being reduced to her body parts. If anything, it would be that she's being "reduced" to a service. You wouldn't say that a woman who works as a court stenographer is reduced to a pair of ears and hands, would you? No, because you don't associate shame with being a stenographer. When a waitress serves you your meal, you probably don't feel terrible because you don't know her personality/life story/etc. Who cares, right? It's not necessary to receive the service she's giving you. She has her own life outside of work and isn't reduced to the very limited experiences you have with her. It's the same with strippers or prostitutes or pornography actresses. 

It would seem that root motivation for seeing sex work as different from many other professions is an association of shame with sexuality. Shame enough at least to assert that it should be private. By shame I don't mean to say that people think sexuality is wrong, just something that we should generally be embarrassed by. We don't think urinating is wrong, but we wouldn't do it in the middle of a public street because of shame. 

Many would say that being a stripper is degrading because it requires very little cognitive abilities/the job is almost purely physical. Others would say that being a stripper is degrading because it relies on something we mostly did not earn: Attractiveness, which is largely genetic. The problem arises when you isolate these traits to compare with another profession. 

A woman working on an assembly line may need only to pull a lever and release it every 4 seconds. This obviously isn't making full use of her abilities or causing her to grow as a person. 

What about a massage therapist? Why isn't it degrading to use your hands to please others, but degrading to use your genitals?

A woman who is an Olympic level athlete is only able to be because of genetics. Sure training is a huge factor, but if you don't have the genes for it, then you'll never reach Olympic levels. Are the previous 3 cases degrading like being a stripper apparently is?

So what's with associating shame with sex? Why do I hear people talk about women's sexuality like it's monetary, and that women should be ashamed by selling it for too little? Seems like evolution is the reason for this; a species does it's best when the females are selective, so only the best breed and the weak die out. However, we're in a new era where we can enjoy sexuality without procreation. Our old ideals no longer serve us in this case.

When men look at strippers, they don't need to know their personality to enjoy their service. But before you go feeling bad for them, remember that they are autonomous people that have their own lives outside of work. Most don't need to be sheltered, helped, or pitied. Further, to assert that a woman is lesser by giving herself up too easily is reducing much of a woman's worth to her sexual chastity. Based on this last paragraph, who's the one degrading women here?


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## Bumblyjack (Nov 18, 2011)

I'm not concerned about whether or not porn is degrading to the women who choose to work in pornography. It's a consequence of the decisions they made, so while I may have sympathy for them, it doesn't cause me to lose sleep at night.

I'm more concerned about how porn is degrading and offensive to other women: those who do not work in pornography. I believe that it promotes the idea that women are sex objects. This is disrespectful and unfair to the vast majority of women who have never and would never work in the adult entertainment industry. 

I don't understand why sexual attraction and respect have to be mutually exclusive. Then again I'm a Type 2 ENFP, so I couldn't separate the two if I tried: I need to have a high opinion of someone in order to find them attractive.


Reading the other posts in this thread has helped me clarify my own thoughts on this subject, so thank you all for that.


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## marzipan01 (Jun 6, 2010)

ManhattanINTP said:


> Do you have the same feelings of disgust towards how male strippers are treated?
> 
> Is this in the case of the "dumb" strippers, or all strippers?
> 
> ...


Hey, I'm as much a supporter for a woman's right to be horny and enjoy sex as anyone else is. And I agree with you that many women who are against pornography are also in support of a woman's chastity. Supporting women's chastity is a form of feminine degradation. Advocating for chastity follows the same trains of thought that support that only men want sex and women don't and as such, women can with hold sex from men as a form of punishment. If sex is something women can reward good men with and with hold from bad men, then sex is a form of currency and again we're met with the same degradation. The old housewives of the 1950's were lower than prostitutes because her husband owned her body whereas the prostitute simply leased it. There must be a middle ground. For me there is a difference between valuing a woman's chastity and disgust with pornography. For a long time I held the opinions you are expressing: that it's no different than being reduced to a pair of hands on an assembly line, etc. 

Recently, I've been considering the masculine and feminine forms of degradation and I do believe that reducing someone to a pair of hands on an assembly line is equally degrading. I've contemplated both forms of degradation. The masculine degradation (being reduced to nothing more than the brute force and power that one brings--the epitome of this is when someone enlists as a soldier. Soldiers are supposed to be nothing more than killing machines. No emotions--purely cold killers strong and brutal. Sleeping and eating are seen as weaknesses and therefore associated with the feminine) and the feminine degradation (being reduced to nothing more than physical form and beauty--the pinnacle of which is seen in modeling, pornography, stripping, concubines, prostitutes, etc. where individuals--both men and women--who enlist in these professions are expected to lack any skills or be aggressive in order to sustain their profession they must indulge in pampering their bodies: tanning, getting their hair done, working on their bodies constantly to look hot). Both forms of degradation are equally disgusting. 

My argument about cognitive faculties is that in both forms of derogatory service industries (the soldier or line worker and the model, stripper, or prostitute), men and women who work in these industries are expected to dull their cognitive faculties or at least to hide them because it requires a level of mental/emotional dullness to allow one's self to be degraded in such a way and still find a way to return to work each day/night.

As far as message therapy is considered, I think that massage, acupuncture, etc. are specializations that require one to use one's mind and require a level of expertise and training. In so being, I don't find massage therapy to be a topic that can be included in the same debate.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

a few more points
- how is porn degrading to women? why should the rest of women be lumped in with women who make careers in the adult entertainment industry. by that logic, we should be saying men who beat their wives are offensive to men, except in this instance people have the common sense to know that it's not a _minority_ of men who actually do this. porn is degrading to the the women who partake in it (if it is even degrading to them in the first place) not women with professional jobs. 
- rape means forcing someone to have sex with you or having sex with someone below consenting age. having sex with an adult significantly younger than you or having sex with someone who is an idiot is not rape. this word is overused to a point that it is dangerous (any time a sexual encounter doesn't go well, someone can scream "rape!" and land the other partner in jail. while I agree that legitimate rape should be punished severely, it needs to be much more clearly defined with lesser punishments for lesser offenses and greater punishments for greater offenses) 
- why is porn even bad in the first place if it isn't hurting anyone? sure it's kinda gross, but if some people like it, good for them.
- why would I pity someone who makes money having sex for a living? if anything, it sounds like a pretty nice lifestyle provided they're in a well managed facility (solid health care, sanitary workplace maintained, some sort of system to weed out the creeps)


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## marzipan01 (Jun 6, 2010)

Obsidean said:


> Maybe men who go see prostitutes are slightly dumb or aren't cognitively aware. It's a two way street imo.


That is essentially my argument, yes.


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## marzipan01 (Jun 6, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> a few more points
> - how is porn degrading to women? why should the rest of women be lumped in with women who make careers in the adult entertainment industry. by that logic, we should be saying men who beat their wives are offensive to men, except in this instance people have the common sense to know that it's not a _minority_ of men who actually do this. porn is degrading to the the women who partake in it (if it is even degrading to them in the first place) not women with professional jobs.
> - rape means forcing someone to have sex with you or having sex with someone below consenting age. having sex with an adult significantly younger than you or having sex with someone who is an idiot is not rape. this word is overused to a point that it is dangerous (any time a sexual encounter doesn't go well, someone can scream "rape!" and land the other partner in jail. while I agree that legitimate rape should be punished severely, it needs to be much more clearly defined with lesser punishments for lesser offenses and greater punishments for greater offenses)
> - why is porn even bad in the first place if it isn't hurting anyone? sure it's kinda gross, but if some people like it, good for them.
> - why would I pity someone who makes money having sex for a living? if anything, it sounds like a pretty nice lifestyle provided they're in a well managed facility (solid health care, sanitary workplace maintained, some sort of system to weed out the creeps)


I think it's important to define "degradation." In order to define a term like "degradation" I think it's fruitless to use analytical terminology as it will not convey what we are actually discussing. So, in order to define my term, follow me for a moment...

Imagine you are broke. Absolutely piss ass broke. It doesn't matter how you got that way, the fact of the matter is, you are broke. You live under a bridge. You have no friends, no family. There is no hope of you getting a job because when you walk down the street, people throw things at you, shop keepers look the other way or call the police when you walk into their establishment. 
You are worthless, a nothing, a bum. 
You are cold, tired, and hungry. 
You are sore, feeble, and can barely speak as you waste away. 
As you rest your tired body in an alleyway huddled against the wall as the cold rain splashes on your feet and water that stings with the stench of rotting garbage rushes over your cracked and aching feet, a man comes out of the back of the building. He has more money than you, he spots you. He gets a cold steely look in his eye. He can do anything to you and no one would care. He could do anything to you and no one would notice. You're too weak to put up a fight. He can do anything to you. You're too weak to fight. You're too weak to even read his look and move. 
And before you can read it, he says, "Hey, bum, you want a couple of bucks? Some food, a nice bed to sleep in?" 
Immediately, you jump at the chance. Someone is showing you kindness, your prayers have been answered. 
"Sure," you say. 
"I'll give you money and a place to stay for a while but you're going to have to work for it." 
"Anything," you say. 
The man forces you to suck his dick. He fucks you in the ass. Doing whatever he wants, indulges his sick and twisted mind--his desires for dominance, power and control. He ties you up, has his friends take turns urinating in your mouth and forcing you to drink your own vomit. 
And, in the end, rather than paying you, he simply stabs you to death and dumps your body in a garbage can and nobody cares. You show up in the morgue as John Doe. No identification, no clues, and no suspects--this man got away with murder and nobody cares. Just another dead bum. 

Clearly this is an exaggeration designed to illustrate what degradation feels like. This is degradation. Hey, you want a carrot? Come on, get the carrot...come on, you can do it...and just when they're done having their fun seeing what they can get you to do for the carrot, they leave you without anything--no carrot, no dignity, nothing. A human being reduced to nothing more than means to an end.

Strippers, "porn stars", and prostitutes lose their dignity and self-worth every day and nobody cares. Just another dumb girl with tits. Hey, you know, not everyone is hot enough to be a stripper. You've got to have competitions. We only want the hottest of the hottest in here. Ever think about getting a boob job? Work a couple of nights, make sure to suck some dick here and there for some extra cash, then you can save up to get surgery so your tits are bigger. The harder our dicks, the more you'll be flushed with cash. Come on girl, show us what you've got. Show me that pussy.


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## Psilo (Apr 29, 2009)

The only stripper I've known looked down on her customers. She thought it was pathetic how they threw money at her just for taking off her clothes. She also made enough money to live on working only Friday nights. She did it because she preferred it to working a 40hr/week job.

Take from that what you will, but I don't think it's as cut and dry as 'the sex industry degrades women, end of story.'


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## marzipan01 (Jun 6, 2010)

Psilo said:


> The only stripper I've known looked down on her customers. She thought it was pathetic how they threw money at her just for taking off her clothes. She also made enough money to live on working only Friday nights. She did it because she preferred it to working a 40hr/week job.
> 
> Take from that what you will, but I don't think it's as cut and dry as 'the sex industry degrades women, end of story.'


It is that cut and dry. Most jobs are degrading. Stripping is exemplar. She thinks she superior to her customers but she's naked, writhing on the floor, bowing before wads of cash. She might be superior to her customers but she is a worm writhing before the god of money.

The way we do business--capitalism in general--degrades both men and women. Capitalism is a force that degrades human beings into dollar signs. There's no discrimination here, this isn't a gender or race issue. Don't worry, we're all losers in this race for money.


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## nádej (Feb 27, 2011)

It's just not so simple to say that all women in the porn industry or stripping or whatever are being degraded and/or made to feel worthless. Same goes for men. Certainly there are instances of people being forced into these industries against their will, and of course those stories should be heartbreaking and the opportunity to get out should be a goal. At the same time, there are those who go into those industries as a choice. A cognizant, informed choice. And that's nobody's business or worry but their own.


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## Psilo (Apr 29, 2009)

Ultimately, I don't disagree with that.


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## marzipan01 (Jun 6, 2010)

katienicole said:


> It's just not so simple to say that all women in the porn industry or stripping or whatever are being degraded and/or made to feel worthless. Same goes for men. Certainly there are instances of people being forced into these industries against their will, and of course those stories should be heartbreaking and the opportunity to get out should be a goal. At the same time, there are those who go into those industries as a choice. A cognizant, informed choice. And that's nobody's business or worry but their own.


Hahaha. Okay, sure. This girl says whatever she has to say to look good. That's why she went into porn. That's who she is. You really think she went into porn to make the industry better? She went into porn because she could make money and be successful. It was instant gratification. You take off your clothes and people look at you with longing, you're filmed having sex and you know that men at home are looking at you getting boners and then fucking their girlfriends or wives while they think about you. It means you get all the attention. You get all the success. This woman said, "I go after what I want." Whatever she wants she goes and gets it without thinking about the bigger picture of what she does. That's exactly the same mentality of the Hausa in Nigeria who stole land from the Igbo to rape the earth for oil and leave all the Igbo starving as the acid rain pollutes their crops. This woman has no love for herself or others. She is pure selfish libido energy--a vice our capitalist, consumer country adores and promotes.


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## nádej (Feb 27, 2011)

marzipan01 said:


> She went into porn because she could make money and be successful.


So? Isn't that why people do a lot of jobs?



> This woman has no love for herself or others.


That's a bold conclusion to draw from a 6 minute video in which a woman was being harassed about and pushed to be defensive of a former choice of career...



Listen. I get that there are awful things out there. Believe me. I have several close friends who work at non-profits dedicated to ending the sex-trafficking industry. There's some awful, awful stuff. I also have friends who have worked as strippers for a time to make extra cash. Did they love it? Not really (though some may). Were they forced into it? No (though some are). Did they find it worth it? Yes (though some won't).


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

Ultimately, the male sex drive and the female need for security are the antagonist forces at play here.

The women are reduced to masturbation material while the men are reduced to dollar bills.
From what I've seen, the inherent shame is marginal at best.
And mutual.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

marzipan01 said:


> I think it's important to define "degradation." In order to define a term like "degradation" I think it's fruitless to use analytical terminology as it will not convey what we are actually discussing. So, in order to define my term, follow me for a moment...
> 
> Imagine you are broke. Absolutely piss ass broke. It doesn't matter how you got that way, the fact of the matter is, you are broke. You live under a bridge. You have no friends, no family. There is no hope of you getting a job because when you walk down the street, people throw things at you, shop keepers look the other way or call the police when you walk into their establishment.
> You are worthless, a nothing, a bum.
> ...


- your situation is way too extreme to be considered as anything but an outlyer
- if he forces her to have sex with him, that's rape
- if he physically hurts her, that's also a serious
- however, if he simply pays her money to have sex with him, that's a business transaction and both are better off (the homeless woman gets money, the rich guy gets sex). sometimes you have to do less than pleasant things to survive in this cruel world, and when the alternative is starving, having sex with a man for money is opportunity, albeit an unsavory one.


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## marzipan01 (Jun 6, 2010)

katienicole said:


> So? Isn't that why people do a lot of jobs? That's a bold conclusion to draw from a 6 minute video in which a woman was being harassed about and pushed to be defensive of a former choice of career...


Yes, that is why people do a lot of jobs and a lot of jobs are degrading. Most jobs in the US are degrading. Employers act like they can ask their employees to do whatever they want for money. They don't care if it's done right, if it's ethical. If you don't do what they say, they'll reprimand you and let it be known that you're nothing more than a dime a dozen. They've got the money, they've got the power, do what they say or fuck off and go live on the street. They won't care. That's my point. This system prizes money, power, and success. The woman in the film is no different than a drug dealer or a corporate stooge. They all sell their souls for cash and we all buy into this system that degrades human beings into nothing more than productive pieces--parts of a machine that can be leased in exchange for money. 



> Listen. I get that there are awful things out there. Believe me. I have several close friends who work at non-profits dedicated to ending the sex-trafficking industry. There's some awful, awful stuff. I also have friends who have worked as strippers for a time to make extra cash. Did they love it? Not really (though some may). Were they forced into it? No (though some are). Did they find it worth it? Yes (though some won't).


Like I said, we're all losers here in this game of capitalism. What is the alternative? It isn't easy to live in this system that promotes the degradation of humanity. It isn't easy to partake in this establishment that thrives on the degradation of people. Who isn't being degraded? Who is the person profiting from all this? Are there any winners here? 

I think there are only a few winners. Very, very few but they exist. 

When soldiers fight and murder each other, who profits? As any peasant actually prospered by the landowning elite's material gain in conquest or war? Usually, a peasant is given a greater reward than he would have had if he had stayed at home tilling the land for a spare bit of cheese, but does he actually prosper from putting his life on the line for his leader? 
Why do we follow these men? Why do we adhere to these establishments? 
I believe it is because of fear + trust. Fear + trust = submission. We are afraid of losing money because we believe money is important because we were taught it was important by our society. Money is a human creation and we have nothing to lose by losing money. Money is only important because we put importance on it. 
Trust in the system. How can you trust this system that degrades you and forces you to submit? Anything you do for this establishment, they rape you at every chance they get. How can we trust this system? How can we submit to this system?

I think people somehow believe that we are equal, that the system is unbeatable, unchangeable. Many people believe they are the elite but temporarily down on their luck and if they could just get back their money, if they can only work hard enough and smart enough they can get back to that position. The truth is, you will never be the creme de la creme. You will never get there. And as long as we keep striving, we are chasing carrots that we will never have. 

The people of the US are like Tantalus: condemned by the gods to be forever tempted by a piece of fruit they will never be able to reach. But we have a choice--stop giving a shit about the fruit and walk away.


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## Emerson (Mar 13, 2011)

I don't think it matters. People want to have sex, people who don't have a partner still want sex, the market provides with either people to go to for sex, the governments of the world should take a leaf out of Hollands book I think, or through pornography, which again creates an economy, pehaps a negative one, but still a form of economy, the more hands pumping the more money flowing. No need to get moral about it.


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

marzipan01 said:


> What would happen if every soldier suddenly went AWOL?


Wolves from other territories would assault the den.



> If everyone suddenly started thinking for themselves, the system would come to a grinding halt and change directions.
> If we refused to give a shit about the economy and had faith in each other, the world could change around completely.


Humanity would revert back to full-blown tribalism.

...And that is pretty much what we have now. Only there would be no metaphorical fire fighters to prevent the flames from burning everything down to its foundations.



> In less than a week we could have world peace. In less than a month we could be working together on cohesive units to promote humanity at large rather than jumping for carrots. No joke.


The human species is too primitive to adhere to pacifism and nobility.
Can we imagine it?
Certainly.
Can we bring it to fruition?
No.


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## Stephen (Jan 17, 2011)

marzipan01 said:


> Supporting women's chastity is a form of feminine degradation.


Whether or not others feel degraded is not up to you.



> My argument about cognitive faculties is that in both forms of derogatory service industries (the soldier or line worker and the model, stripper, or prostitute), men and women who work in these industries are expected to dull their cognitive faculties or at least to hide them because it requires a level of mental/emotional dullness to allow one's self to be degraded in such a way and still find a way to return to work each day/night.


*bangs head on desk*



> As far as message therapy is considered, I think that massage, acupuncture, etc. are specializations that require one to use one's mind and require a level of expertise and training. In so being, I don't find massage therapy to be a topic that can be included in the same debate.


Because you've decided that's respectable work based on your personal feelings.


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## Manhattan (Jul 13, 2011)

Promethea said:


> Its very harmful while in a relationship.


 You know, I have never lost attraction for anyone I'm in love with to porn. I know not all men are the same, I'd just like to block any sweeping generalizations. I compartmentalize the media and real life in general. Porn gives you instant gratification whenever you want and that's appealing, though it's not "real", so I see it as more fantasy. Why would I compare my significant other to fantasy? Not that even comparing my significant others to each other had a huge effect; I always appreciated the person I was with at the time.

One case isn't enough to make an argument, but it's surely enough to prove that porn isn't damaging in every case. 

One more note on the topic in general: Sexuality has huge dominance and submission drives. Some people really enjoy being dominated or degraded. I'd say all of us have the capacity to enjoy it. If one gets into pornography because they enjoy being degraded, is it degrading? Most of us would call it a win if we found something we love, that we're good at, and that also makes a lot of money.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

marzipan01 said:


> How can we live in a society that so easily engages in the degradation of our fellow humans? How can you watch porn without thinking about who these people are and why they do what they do? How can you watch it without thinking about how just by watching it you are endorsing an enterprise that enslaves, abuses, and degrades women like that?


You're kidding yourself if you think that this is in any way new, or even something that is not part of human nature. 

The funny thing is that those strippers make loads of money off of men who drop hundreds of dollars in several hours. Some men are "regulars", and there may not even be a sexual relationship. 

Who is exploiting who? If anything, it's a bizarre form of codependence - and note who's at least making the money out of the deal. 

People are sexual creatures. Sex and sexuality and sexual attraction are major parts of our identities. Not the only parts, but major parts. That's always been the case, and always will be. 

Certainly there are those men who are disgusting or pathetic creatures, but there's a reason why pornography and its depictions go back as far as human history, and why prostitution was dressed up in the ancient Levant as religious rites with temples filled with women who assisted such "worship", and with female deities who were often depicted with a multitude of breasts as a symbol of their fertility.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Promethea said:


> Pornography isn't only harmful to women, but to men, and to relationships.
> 
> Sure, there are women who choose to pose for porn, and I think it says something about a culture that would deem that sort of thing "ok," after being built on some half-cocked idea of puritanism in the beginning. With the puritan ideals, the human body was naughty, and bad.. so naturally, people wanted to see it even more. In tribes where women go bare-chested all the time, those men don't even experience sexual stimulation by looking at breasts. When the culture hides the naughty bits, saying they are bad, and sexual, it has a way of making them into these coveted novelty fetishes. And thats sadly what most attraction is in our culture - fetishistic, because of the mixed messages in our culture, that on one hand, its wrong to see people naked, but on the other hand, you can indulge in it online or at a strip club. I daresay, a lot of the women I knew who tried it, just wanted the thrill of doing something "bad."
> 
> ...


^this. women objectify themselves more than men do
men: "she looks good I want to have sex with her"
women: "her nose is too big. her nails are gross! she looks like a slut. her hair looks disgusting. um, she needs to loose like 200 pounds. where did she get that makeup, K Mart? that shirt is terrible, what is she 5 years old?" 
for a good example of what I mean, watch the movie Mean Girls


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## pepperpotts (Aug 2, 2011)

At least these individuals (strippers,pornstars,customers) are honest to a certain extent.


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## Stephen (Jan 17, 2011)

marzipan01 said:


> I think it's important to define "degradation." In order to define a term like "degradation" I think it's fruitless to use analytical terminology as it will not convey what we are actually discussing. So, in order to define my term, follow me for a moment...


I'm stunned that you would compare every sex worker to a homeless and desperate person being bound, raped, and murdered.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

ManhattanINTP said:


> You know, I have never lost attraction for anyone I'm in love with to porn. I know not all men are the same, I'd just like to block any sweeping generalizations. I compartmentalize the media and real life in general. Porn gives you instant gratification whenever you want and that's appealing, though it's not "real", so I see it as more fantasy. Why would I compare my significant other to fantasy? Not that even comparing my significant others to each other had a huge effect; I always appreciated the person I was with at the time.
> 
> One case isn't enough to make an argument, but it's surely enough to prove that porn isn't damaging in every case.
> 
> One more note on the topic in general: Sexuality has huge dominance and submission drives. Some people really enjoy being dominated or degraded. I'd say all of us have the capacity to enjoy it. If one gets into pornography because they enjoy being degraded, is it degrading? Most of us would call it a win if we found something we love, that we're good at, and that also makes a lot of money.


Well, a lot of men will have less of a sex drive for their partner, or simply think the porn is more attractive, harming her self-esteem - which I kept seeing on a forum where new mothers were discussing how their sex lives had diminished when their husbands turned to porn. Most of them bleated along saying, 'derp, well yeah, the porns hotter.' How amazing those women must feel in that situation. 

You might not think it affects you, but it may on some level. Those studies show just how the brain chemistry works to make men prefer porn over their partners. I personally would be put-off if my partner even picked it over me -sometimes-.. because turning down real sex for something fake, well that certainly seems like an issue. And its insulting. I remember what you said before about how you don't think fantasizing about others is bad, and I think a lot of what you said gave me the impression you wouldn't mind an open relationship.. so frankly, theres no use in discussing the intricacies of healthy monogamy with you anyway. You stick to what you want to believe, and I will be over here, helping people who want monogamy understand how porn could make their sex life worse.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Promethea said:


> Well, a lot of men will have less of a sex drive for their partner, or simply think the porn is more attractive, harming her self-esteem - which I kept seeing on a forum where new mothers were discussing how their sex lives had diminished when their husbands turned to porn. Most of them bleated along saying, 'derp, well yeah, the porns hotter.' How amazing those women must feel in that situation.
> 
> You might not think it affects you, but it may on some level. Those studies show just how the brain chemistry works to make men prefer porn over their partners. I personally would be put-off if my partner even picked it over me -sometimes-.. because turning down real sex for something fake, well that certainly seems like an issue. And its insulting. I remember what you said before about how you don't think fantasizing about others is bad, and I think a lot of what you said gave me the impression you wouldn't mind an open relationship.. so frankly, theres no use in discussing the intricacies of healthy monogamy with you anyway. You stick to what you want to believe, and I will be over here, helping people who want monogamy understand how porn could make their sex life worse.


when you look at it rationally, there is no need to feel bad about yourself for being less attractive than a woman who's profession it is to get men to masturbate. that being said, I think the husband in this scenario is being very inconsiderate for neglecting his wife's sexual needs.


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## Brian1 (May 7, 2011)

marzipan01 said:


> Recently, I've been considering the masculine and feminine forms of degradation and I do believe that reducing someone to a pair of hands on an assembly line is equally degrading. I've contemplated both forms of degradation. The masculine degradation (being reduced to nothing more than the brute force and power that one brings--the epitome of this is when someone enlists as a soldier. Soldiers are supposed to be nothing more than killing machines. No emotions--purely cold killers strong and brutal. Sleeping and eating are seen as weaknesses and therefore associated with the feminine) and the feminine degradation (being reduced to nothing more than physical form and beauty--the pinnacle of which is seen in modeling, pornography, stripping, concubines, prostitutes, etc. where individuals--both men and women--who enlist in these professions are expected to lack any skills or be aggressive in order to sustain their profession they must indulge in pampering their bodies: tanning, getting their hair done, working on their bodies constantly to look hot). Both forms of degradation are equally disgusting.
> 
> My argument about cognitive faculties is that in both forms of derogatory service industries (the soldier or line worker and the model, stripper, or prostitute), men and women who work in these industries are expected to dull their cognitive faculties or at least to hide them because it requires a level of mental/emotional dullness to allow one's self to be degraded in such a way and still find a way to return to work each day/night.
> 
> As far as message therapy is considered, I think that massage, acupuncture, etc. are specializations that require one to use one's mind and require a level of expertise and training. In so being, I don't find massage therapy to be a topic that can be included in the same debate.


Soldiers make sure the peace is kept. That's enforcement. Soldiers are killing machines that's the whole idea of war, to kill or be killed. Most soldiers,are people that enlisted in the army,navy whathave you to pay for school. There's nothing wrong with that. Being a soldier teaches you discipline, respect for your superior. If you need to lose weight, they have training camps for that. Being a soldier is a way to serve your country. I knew one guy who was at the Nixon funeral, as the honor guard. Come to think of it, I've known lots of people in the reserve, lot of good friends. And of course they want to be there. Some soldiers are on training missions with dogs, and sometimes they smuggle the dog back home when both are done with their mission. Now how could you say people are killing machines who want to be with their dogs?


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## MXZCCT (May 29, 2011)

Promethea said:


> Well, a lot of men will have less of a sex drive for their partner, or simply think the porn is more attractive, harming her self-esteem - which I kept seeing on a forum where new mothers were discussing how their sex lives had diminished when their husbands turned to porn. Most of them bleated along saying, 'derp, well yeah, the porns hotter.' How amazing those women must feel in that situation.
> 
> You might not think it affects you, but it may on some level. Those studies show just how the brain chemistry works to make men prefer porn over their partners. I personally would be put-off if my partner even picked it over me -sometimes-.. because turning down real sex for something fake, well that certainly seems like an issue. And its insulting. I remember what you said before about how you don't think fantasizing about others is bad, and I think a lot of what you said gave me the impression you wouldn't mind an open relationship.. so frankly, theres no use in discussing the intricacies of healthy monogamy with you anyway. You stick to what you want to believe, and I will be over here, helping people who want monogamy understand how porn could make their sex life worse.


You give porn way too much credit for problems that arise in a relation between two people. Porn, in itself, does not damage the self esteem of a woman who's husband/boyfriend looks a porn. Your establishing porn as automatically being considered more attractive than the SO which causes damage to her self esteem.

A mature self confident female isn't going to let something like porn bother her. I'm sure she has all kinds of tricks to seduce when ever, and where ever she pleases. If the female's self esteem was damaged, it was already damaged before porn was introduced into the equation. Porn is an excuse to bitch like some peevish 90 year old woman because she is no longer young and beautiful.

I can honestly state, that if I was browsing the web for porn, and my SO strolled by swinging them hips, I bet it won't be difficult to figure out what my next intentions would be.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

marzipan01 said:


> Hey, I'm as much a supporter for a woman's right to be horny and enjoy sex as anyone else is. And I agree with you that many women who are against pornography are also in support of a woman's chastity. Supporting women's chastity is a form of feminine degradation. Advocating for chastity follows the same trains of thought that support that only men want sex and women don't and as such, women can with hold sex from men as a form of punishment. If sex is something women can reward good men with and with hold from bad men, then sex is a form of currency and again we're met with the same degradation. The old housewives of the 1950's were lower than prostitutes because her husband owned her body whereas the prostitute simply leased it. There must be a middle ground. For me there is a difference between valuing a woman's chastity and disgust with pornography. For a long time I held the opinions you are expressing: that it's no different than being reduced to a pair of hands on an assembly line, etc.
> 
> Recently, I've been considering the masculine and feminine forms of degradation *and I do believe that reducing someone to a pair of hands on an assembly line is equally degrading.* I've contemplated both forms of degradation. The masculine degradation (being reduced to nothing more than the brute force and power that one brings--the epitome of this is when someone enlists as a soldier. Soldiers are supposed to be nothing more than killing machines. No emotions--purely cold killers strong and brutal. Sleeping and eating are seen as weaknesses and therefore associated with the feminine) and the feminine degradation (being reduced to nothing more than physical form and beauty--the pinnacle of which is seen in modeling, pornography, stripping, concubines, prostitutes, etc. where individuals--both men and women--who enlist in these professions are expected to lack any skills or be aggressive in order to sustain their profession they must indulge in pampering their bodies: tanning, getting their hair done, working on their bodies constantly to look hot). Both forms of degradation are equally disgusting.
> 
> ...


essentially you would then consider every occupation not requiring a college degree to be degrading. I take it back, this particular post at least is extremely pretentious


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## bigtex1989 (Feb 7, 2011)

marzipan01 said:


> Okay, so I was curious about it and wanted to see what it was all about. Initially I was curious. Then, I was fairly disgusted. I've been to the strip club only once to see what that was about. I talked to these women. It was really talking to them that made me feel disturbed. These women who are involved in making pornography and stripping they do this for a living because people pay for it.


That's why any of us do any job. That's the basis of any economy. You possess a skill that people will exchange goods and services for, and you barter with it. Stripping and pornography is that skill to some, and it is a skill. Not everyone can do it. Why should these people not get paid for such a talent? 



> Some of these women do it because they're slightly dumb, some do it because they are strapped for cash (I met a stripper who was a single mother of two children). I mean either way, I feel like this really grosses me out. If it is unethical to fuck a twelve year old it should be just as unethical to fuck someone who is not cognitively aware--whether they're 20 or 15, if they're not emotionally aware enough to recognize they're being degraded and that it isn't worth it, then it's rape. And I don't see how paying someone to have sex (prostitution) is any different than paying for someone to have sex on camera (pornography).


It doesn't matter why they do it, it matters that it is done willingly. I think cognitive awareness is part of rape. If you aren't cognitively aware enough to say yes, I do believe that's rape, but that's a different discussion. Emotionally awareness is a bad metric to judge consent, especially in this case. In order to be aware of degradation, it must actually be occurring, which I don't believe it is. Objectification is not the same thing as degradation. Also, I don't think it is your call to make that "it isn't worth it". Fucking a 12 yr old is not the same thing as fucking an emotionally numb 20 yr old with possible daddy issues.



> I have nothing against the women who do this. It's actually that I have the opposite problem. All I can think about is how the men are reducing them to body parts in their minds. The perversion, the degradation and that these women are allowing these men to do that to them for some reason. Maybe it was because no one ever taught them that there was more to them and to life than money and people looking at you. Maybe it's because they like it when they're useful and all eyes are on them. Maybe it's because they were pushed into forced sex slavery, addicted to drugs that forced them to find a way to pay for their habits, maybe they just hate the idea of being on welfare and see the job as less degrading than working at Mcdonalds. I'm not sure but all I can say is the way that these women get attention and get their money is not respect.


It's not just women in the sex industry reduced to body parts. It happens to everyone in a profession where one specific piece of anatomy is prized. Some examples are athletes (quarterbacks reduced to an arm), scientists (reduced to brains), and the list goes on. They are allowing themselves to be "degraded" by men is for money. It happens in most other professions. Try being an executive assistant and tell me you didn't feel degraded. Everything you have described so far is not unique to the sex industry. To some people, money and attention ARE what life is about. A completely valid way to look at life; no better or worse for some people. If working in the sex industry gives them pleasure (even if from being useful), I applaud them for doing something they enjoy, and wish them a long and successful career. Forced sex slavery is a completely different animal and should not be included in this discussion for a lot of reasons, the best being that pornography is not in the same class as sex slavery. I respect women in pornography the same as I respect any person working any job. They are doing a service for money. End of story. There was an American Dad episode about Haley stripping, and the respect issue came up. The show was more eloquent than I could ever be, so I suggest looking that up. Very few jobs are "respected" like I think you want them too. Consider the garbage man. 



> This woman told me that the first time she stripped a gang of guys she went to high school with showed up for a bachelor party. They cheered, "I've wanted to see you naked since high school!" This story made me want to throw up.


Why? They were paying to see her naked. How is that different from paying to explore a mind through tutoring? A tutor is "used" for his/her brain. Why is that better than using him/her for his/her body? Its all about goods for services. I don't think this is actually that big of a deal. 



> How can we live in a society that so easily engages in the degradation of our fellow humans? How can you watch porn without thinking about who these people are and why they do what they do? How can you watch it without thinking about how just by watching it you are endorsing an enterprise that enslaves, abuses, and degrades women like that?


Everyone is degraded, no matter the profession. I don't wonder about them for the same reason I don't look at a hamburger and wonder about how the cow lived. I can't even begin to dissect your last statement. Enslaves? Wow. No it doesn't. These women have a choice. If they want to do something else, they can work at Starbucks or McDonald's like you said. Abuses? No. I think all the abusive hardcore porn is done voluntarily, although I can't be sure. I believe if it came out that it was not voluntary, serious restrictions would be put on pornography since a lot of people in power have it out for the sex industry. The fact that nothing has been done, leads me to believe its voluntary. Degrades? Again, no more than any other career.

I think the degradation comes from view points like yours that puts a stigma on the sex industry. You view it as an overtly negative industry where women go to get brutalized by men, and that's a horrific view based in archaic puritan ideals. Are there some women degraded, enslaved, and abused by the sex industry? Absolutely. Are there men degraded, enslaved, and abused by the sex industry? Absolutely. The question is, is the abuse and all that an outlier or the norm? I believe you'll find it is not the "norm". So to find out why a society can degrade humans so easily, one needs only to look in the mirror!


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## marzipan01 (Jun 6, 2010)

Cindjor said:


> as my main points have been said already in this thread, i'm just going to add something here that I think many people glossed over.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I was sheltered from two things growing up: Violent/horror films, and pornography. Relatively sheltered in the regard that my family is made up of strong career women. My step-mom was a cop so, yeah, I think I was sheltered for a good portion of my life from the other kind of women's lives. You know, the kind of women that debase themselves and are willing to sacrifice their integrity. Like there was a porn star I heard about, I forget the exact story, but she felt at the age of 16 she had to sleep with her mother's boyfriend in order to protect her family. That's what taught her about sexual favors and what not.

My family protected me from such blatant disrespect to female kind. I didn't realize how everyone in the world was so blatantly disrespectful to other human beings until middle school and even then, I got to go home to my house at night and I didn't take those douche bags home with me.


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## marzipan01 (Jun 6, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> if you would refuse to have sex with the man in the scenario I mentioned, that is your decision, but the fact of the matter is that lots of women would have sex with him and take the money in a heart beat. what is unrealistic is that you believe the man in my scenario was "raping" the woman, implying you think she is entitled to more ideal options, when in reality, lots of the time there are none.


I believe that every human being should be entitled to more options. Yes.
I agree, lots of the time, there aren't more options. WHY NOT?


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

marzipan01 said:


> I believe that every human being should be entitled to more options. Yes.
> I agree, lots of the time, there aren't more options. WHY NOT?


there aren't more options because people live in poverty, people live in poverty for several reasons including unemployment, poor economy, limited resources and many more. you are entitled to make your own decisions and reap the benefits of your labor; you are not entitled to a safe, middle class lifestyle where you will never have to make sacrifices and hard decisions. that hasn't been available on a grand scale for more than 100 years.


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## marzipan01 (Jun 6, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> essentially you would then consider every occupation not requiring a college degree to be degrading. I take it back, this particular post at least is extremely pretentious


I think any job where you are ruled and kept in your place by fear is degrading. Yes. Unfortunately, in this country, the only people who don't really have to fear losing their jobs are those who have to power to say, "I'm skilled, I have talents and there aren't a million more of me who can do my job. So, good-bye." 
If we had more of a safety net for the people in this country, employers wouldn't be able to rule over any of their employees with fear. And it wouldn't matter if you were skilled, educated, or whatever. If there was a true safety net for the poor that actually ensured a level playing field I would not give a damn about this industry. I still wouldn't like porn for other reasons, but I certainly wouldn't be rampaging about it in the same way. 

Just to clarify, by level playing field I mean, affordable health care, welfare, small business grants and loans, etc. 

If we had a level playing field, I would agree that these women had a choice and it isn't rape or anything like that. Then I'd have to agree that they had a choice.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

marzipan01 said:


> I think any job where you are ruled and kept in your place by fear is degrading. Yes. Unfortunately, in this country, the only people who don't really have to fear losing their jobs are those who have to power to say, "I'm skilled, I have talents and there aren't a million more of me who can do my job. So, good-bye."
> If we had more of a safety net for the people in this country, employers wouldn't be able to rule over any of their employees with fear.
> By that I mean, affordable health care, and, you know, the basic safety nets that are allotted to most people in places like Europe where they actually seem to care about the people--because the people demanded it of their government of course.


what we need to do is increase the demand for workers by getting rid of business taxes that incentivize entrepreneurs to go over seas. if we make starting a business in the United States easier, we will have more productivity, lower prices and thus more jobs because people businesses will have to compete for labor. that is why wages were so ridiculously high in the 1950s


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## marzipan01 (Jun 6, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> what we need to do is increase the demand for workers by getting rid of business taxes that incentivize entrepreneurs to go over seas. if we make starting a business in the United States easier, we will have more productivity, lower prices and thus more jobs because people businesses will have to compete for labor. that is why wages were so ridiculously high in the 1950s


We encourage small businesses by investing in poor people. Give them a chance to start a company. Give them enough of a safety net that they are willing to take the chance. I thought the American dream was about pulling ones self up by one's bootstraps. 

The goal is to transform the entrepreneurial spirit of the poor in America into legitimate entreprises. Look at these women, they want to work for themselves. They want to be their own bosses. With no start up capital this is what they do--they take off their clothes. With a small business loan and health insurance think of all the remarkable ideas they could come up with for an actual company or business idea, combined with their people skills, we could definitely do something spectacular.


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## Manhattan (Jul 13, 2011)

Promethea said:


> Well, a lot of men will have less of a sex drive for their partner, or simply think the porn is more attractive, harming her self-esteem - which I kept seeing on a forum where new mothers were discussing how their sex lives had diminished when their husbands turned to porn. Most of them bleated along saying, 'derp, well yeah, the porns hotter.' How amazing those women must feel in that situation.
> 
> You might not think it affects you, but it may on some level. Those studies show just how the brain chemistry works to make men prefer porn over their partners. I personally would be put-off if my partner even picked it over me -sometimes-.. because turning down real sex for something fake, well that certainly seems like an issue. And its insulting. I remember what you said before about how you don't think fantasizing about others is bad, and I think a lot of what you said gave me the impression you wouldn't mind an open relationship.. so frankly, theres no use in discussing the intricacies of healthy monogamy with you anyway. You stick to what you want to believe, and I will be over here, helping people who want monogamy understand how porn could make their sex life worse.


My opinions on an open relationship do not matter. My point still stands. If pornography has had any effect on my mind, it hasn't been to make me ever turn down sex from a partner, ever, and I'm no stranger to porn. The woman I love is attractive to me at all times. My emotional connection with them is the strongest libido enhancer there is. And so, claiming that porn is always damaging is not accounting for all the information. 

Porn can actually be beneficial to a relationship if the man prefers to use porn to masturbate, and his significant other isn't in the mood, he may choose to use it as his own release. In the past when my partner hasn't been in the mood, I've taken care of myself. It's definitely prevented some annoyance in the relationship. 

As for the pregnant wife thing, that's a bit different. Many pregnant women feel more self conscious by default. My friend's wife was recently pregnant and she got upset with him for looking at porn because it made her feel like he didn't find her attractive. This is ridiculous because he never turned down any of her advances, and did it when she wasn't around anyway. What she was doing was imposing her insecurities on him. "He wants to achieve orgasm at least once a day and I'm not willing to give it to him. I must not be enough for him!" Right. Well what's it going to be, give your husband sex whenever he wants it like a servant, or accept that his sexual needs are important and let him take care of them when you're not willing? Seems like the latter is less demeaning. And if that man chooses to use porn to fulfill his needs, it's hardly interfering with the relationship unless he's really superficial. 

Speaking of superficial...We're not supposed to let impressionable children watch violent television, but because there's impressionable children out there doesn't mean that all violence should be removed from media. Why should superficial men determine if porn is bad for everyone or not? It seems like if they're more attracted to physical attributes that the love they feel for their partner, porn is only a *symptom *of a larger disease. 

And if you were saying that these guys actually told their wives that the porn was hotter...holy shit, that's atrocious. But how can that be said to be the porn's fault? If he sees an attractive woman walking down the street and he tells his wife that she's hotter, you wouldn't blame the attractive woman. All those guys are complete assholes. Maybe the women are lamenting letting such a jerk impregnate them? If they had better filters, none of these jerks would be able to procreate. 

About once a week, my partner will look at porn before we have sex. I don't know, she thinks it's fun. I can understand seeking novel stimulation. I think it makes her feel adventurous too, which is a plus for both of us. From a female side, I don't see porn as necessarily damaging either.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

marzipan01 said:


> We encourage small businesses by investing in poor people. Give them a chance to start a company. Give them enough of a safety net that they are willing to take the chance. I thought the American dream was about pulling ones self up by one's bootstraps.
> The goal is to transform the entrepreneurial spirit of the poor in America into legitimate entreprises. Look at these women, they want to work for themselves. They want to be their own bosses. With no start up capital this is what they do--they take off their clothes. With a small business loan and health insurance think of all the remarkable ideas they could come up with for an actual company or business idea, combined with their people skills, we could definitely do something spectacular.


let's look at places where this has been tried before and if it resulted in more entrepreneurial spirit
- communist Russia: no
- Indian reservations: no
- Europe: no

safety nets only incentivize laziness (speaking as a kid living with his parents (a safety net) and trying to overcome laziness lol)


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## SenhorFrio (Apr 29, 2010)

I don't think pornography is evil or immoral in anyway. In an Ideal world the only people who would be pornstars/strippers would be people with hyper sexuality. Now it isn't an ideal world, but i don't see how it hurts anyone if two people choose to have sex with money changing hands, it's going to keep happening whether some people say it's immoral or not having it legal with some oversight is going to protect people alot better than having it in back alleys.

If you think porn is disgusting just don't watch it, if you don't want to be a stripper don't be one, but it's wrong to cast all people who watch porn as immoral and all porn as degrading to women. I watch alot of porn but that doesn't mean I don't have respect for women they're just as intelligent as men, and just like men some of them really enjoy sex


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## marzipan01 (Jun 6, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> let's look at places where this has been tried before and if it resulted in more entrepreneurial spirit
> - communist Russia: no
> - Indian reservations: no
> - Europe: no
> ...


I'd rather people were lazy than degrading other people. 
Ever see the show "Running Wilde"? 
The servant says about Wilde (the ultra rich kid), "My purpose is to prevent him from having a purpose."
In a system where laziness is incentivized, people calm the fuck down. They don't want to go to war. They don't want to fight. They don't want to kill each other to get ahead.
At worst, they sit around enjoying what other people do and make. What's wrong with that? 
If laziness is incentivized, writers, artists, and video game makers are allowed to flourish. I think it's a good idea. 
Maybe it's selfish of me, but I've found that when everyone is lazy, it's so much easier for me to come and go as I please. I have so much more freedom. Sure, the shops aren't open after 7, and there isn't a lot of money. But, you know, people are just better in their hearts when they're not pushed very hard and it's not very difficult to inspire them to clean up a polluted river or transform an abandoned railroad into a bike path.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

marzipan01 said:


> I'd rather people were lazy than degrading other people.
> Ever see the show "Running Wilde"?
> The servant says about Wilde (the ultra rich kid), "My purpose is to prevent him from having a purpose."
> In a system where laziness is incentivized, people calm the fuck down. They don't want to go to war. They don't want to fight. They don't want to kill each other to get ahead.
> ...


lazy people also aren't motivated to produce anything (again, I would probably be working harder trying to start a business if I didn't have the shelter of my parents house), this leads to declining economy, fewer jobs, lower quality products, higher prices on bear necessities and thus lower standard of living, codependency, return to primal instincts, starvation and eventually bloody violence and stealing. the default of live if suffering, killing, hunger and death (watch any documentary on the Amazon, African bush, Yukon or any wildlife documentary and you'll eventually reach the same conclusion) but **** sapiens have a ticket out of this cold, dark, violent and absolutely horrific existence, it's called productivity (innovation, providing value, trading, creating, improving, making things more comfortable, convenient and healthier) 
PS: writers, video game makers and artists are some of the most disciplined and least lazy people in existence. trust me, I was at music school for a year for vocal performance and you have to work your ass off. creative professions are MORE productivity driven and MORE tightly scheduled. these people are friggin beasts at getting results and it's hard work =)


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## marzipan01 (Jun 6, 2010)

Promethea said:


> Pornography isn't only harmful to women, but to men, and to relationships.
> 
> Sure, there are women who choose to pose for porn, and I think it says something about a culture that would deem that sort of thing "ok," after being built on some half-cocked idea of puritanism in the beginning. With the puritan ideals, the human body was naughty, and bad.. so naturally, people wanted to see it even more. In tribes where women go bare-chested all the time, those men don't even experience sexual stimulation by looking at breasts. When the culture hides the naughty bits, saying they are bad, and sexual, it has a way of making them into these coveted novelty fetishes. And thats sadly what most attraction is in our culture - fetishistic, because of the mixed messages in our culture, that on one hand, its wrong to see people naked, but on the other hand, you can indulge in it online or at a strip club. I daresay, a lot of the women I knew who tried it, just wanted the thrill of doing something "bad."
> 
> ...


I just want you to know how much I adore you.
It feels good to know there are people out there that see what I see, too.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

MXZCCT said:


> You give porn way too much credit for problems that arise in a relation between two people. Porn, in itself, does not damage the self esteem of a woman who's husband/boyfriend looks a porn. Your establishing porn as automatically being considered more attractive than the SO which causes damage to her self esteem.
> 
> A mature self confident female isn't going to let something like porn bother her. I'm sure she has all kinds of tricks to seduce when ever, and where ever she pleases. If the female's self esteem was damaged, it was already damaged before porn was introduced into the equation. Porn is an excuse to bitch like some peevish 90 year old woman because she is no longer young and beautiful.
> 
> I can honestly state, that if I was browsing the web for porn, and my SO strolled by swinging them hips, I bet it won't be difficult to figure out what my next intentions would be.


The studies give it credit.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

ManhattanINTP said:


> My opinions on an open relationship do not matter. My point still stands. If pornography has had any effect on my mind, it hasn't been to make me ever turn down sex from a partner, ever, and I'm no stranger to porn. The woman I love is attractive to me at all times. My emotional connection with them is the strongest libido enhancer there is. And so, claiming that porn is always damaging is not accounting for all the information.
> 
> Porn can actually be beneficial to a relationship if the man prefers to use porn to masturbate, and his significant other isn't in the mood, he may choose to use it as his own release. In the past when my partner hasn't been in the mood, I've taken care of myself. It's definitely prevented some annoyance in the relationship.
> 
> ...


Is it impossible for men to masturbate to their significant other? I have known many who seem to get off easier thinking of past sexual exp when they are masturbating.

And in the case where you say "would we blame the woman, if the man walking down the street said shes hot" -- actually thats a case where he wasn't actually out seeking to find women that he thinks are hot, like he is when hes looking up porn - and its his fault of course, just like looking up porn. I personally wouldn't think anyone is hotter than my significant other anyway.

I do think the difference in our views on this matters, because as you see porn as not being an issue, I can see how you wouldn't, seeing as you don't strive for the level of mental/emotional loyalty that some do. My words only apply to those who actually care about that. And for the record, I don't care what you do, or what anyone does, but if people are looking for answers on how to maintain this level of monogamy, then I certainly have answers for -them- but no energy to try to change someones values to the point they can see the value in what I value.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

marzipan01 said:


> If it is unethical to fuck a twelve year old it should be just as unethical to fuck someone who,..


I agree but that's the problem, some are 25,30,50 and still have the mentality or education of a twelve year old.

I used to feel the same way as the OP and still do many times. But I've become breathless of the women I've got to know, the things they like, want and asks us to do.

I live in Central América and I don't get it. I hear the women complaining all the time about porno but they are the ones who buy the "raeegeton", the dirty music where even the lyrics insult them... and they sing the songs!!!! and dance to the rythm!!! trust me this is a matter I approach very often with women, they can't explain it, they go sideways and avoid the subject.




WamphyriThrall said:


> And the demonization of men continues...


 Yep....
not every guys enjoys sick stuff, and even if some enjoy it, what's more wrong? watching it? or being the one willing to do it? I often get to a close end with this matter.


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## marzipan01 (Jun 6, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> lazy people also aren't motivated to produce anything (again, I would probably be working harder trying to start a business if I didn't have the shelter of my parents house), this leads to declining economy, fewer jobs, lower quality products, higher prices on bear necessities and thus lower standard of living, codependency, return to primal instincts, starvation and eventually bloody violence and stealing. the default of live if suffering, killing, hunger and death (watch any documentary on the Amazon, African bush, Yukon or any wildlife documentary and you'll eventually reach the same conclusion) but **** sapiens have a ticket out of this cold, dark, violent and absolutely horrific existence, it's called productivity (innovation, providing value, trading, creating, improving, making things more comfortable, convenient and healthier)
> PS: writers, video game makers and artists are some of the most disciplined and least lazy people in existence. trust me, I was at music school for a year for vocal performance and you have to work your ass off. creative professions are MORE productivity driven and MORE tightly scheduled. these people are friggin beasts at getting results and it's hard work =)


If the government increased financial aid, small business grants and loans, and health care, we would not encourage laziness. We would be extending bootstraps. 

Your idleness is caused by excess. Working harder isn't the solution. You can break your bones working and you'll still find your life is meaningless. You need a purpose. I suggest finding a way to use your resources to help other people find their own ways in the world. Find other people to invest in. There's a great organization called Hefer International. Giving people in underprivelaged countries goats is like giving them a small business. Community gardening could make a tremendous impact on improving our world. No joke.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

marzipan01 said:


> If the government increased financial aid, small business grants and loans, and health care, we would not encourage laziness. We would be extending bootstraps.
> 
> Your idleness is caused by excess. You need a purpose. I suggest finding a way to use your resources to help other people find their own ways in the world. Find other people to invest in. There's a great organization called Hefer International. Giving people in underprivelaged countries goats is like giving them a small business. Community gardening could make a tremendous impact on improving our world. No joke.


haha no, my idleness is caused by lack of discipline (I really am working on that lol) and a combination of boredom and lack of danger (negative and positive influences both spur action, my life is void at the moment so I'm having to be more of a self starter than is natural for me. at this point in time I'm not so great at it lol)
but I derail as this thread is not about me. point is, there is nothing wrong with being an adult entertainment worker or purchasing adult entertainment services


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## ElectricHead (Jun 3, 2011)

I realize that this all may have been said in different ways, and another 7 pages of responses could show up in the time I'm writing this, but marzipan, I don't think your view on all of this is as healthy as you think it is. That's judgemental of me, and I'm sorry, but you're judging an entire, and vast, category of people in worst case scenarios.



marzipan01 said:


> Interesting you bring up morality. I'm more concerned about human beings being treated as equals, living in harmony, and respecting themselves and each other. It's not really about morality as much as it is about community and global solidarity--working together as individuals to ensure that we uphold the rights and freedoms allotted to every human being simply by being born.


This, along with your pindot views of pornography, strippers, etc., are somewhat hypocritical and elitist. You want to create a world in your view and uphold freedoms, but apparently as long as the they aren't personal freedoms. You want to create an anthill, or a beehive. In this world, we have those that create that beehive and we have those that fly to their own accord and everything in between, and that's what makes us all truly free. You don't grasp the concept that these people are free to choose their lifestyle knowing full well what they are getting into, or at least they should know, and are free to leave the lifestyle as they wish. If their choice is taken away, then that's when it becomes the crime. 



Swordsman of Mana said:


> that scenario is completely impossible. I suggest forming a more realistic view of reality and human nature before putting such weight in your political views.


Well said, and it's a shame that it is unrealistic, but it really is. Even if everyone miraculously became content in the system in the world and violence disappeared 100%, there would still be something else to fight about. Even conflicting ideals on what world peace is would be enough to lead to a divide. Then that divide could divide, and so on and so on, and we have the world today all over again. One reason this could happen is because of each individuals notions on what freedom really is, which could interfere with the opposite notions of others although all in all they want the same thing. So many American's are content in the corporate system marzipan speak negatively about, while others want reform and revolution. 



marzipan01 said:


> My political views: I refuse to be degraded. I refuse to degrade other people. I encourage other people to do the same.
> 
> Tell me what is unrealistic about these views?


I'm sure it's been said already, but it depends on point of view. I doubt many people want to be degraded. If they do, then it's probably because it makes them feel emotions that they perceive as positive to them. And believe it or not, many don't feel degraded at all just because you see it that way. Some see it as art. Some see it as another job. Some love it because they are good at something. Some people just see it as "it is what it is" and really, that's all the only opinion they have on the matter (I don't understand how that could be all they think of it, but I don't condemn it either). 

What about the positive side of things? Maybe some couple get off on watching porn together because they see it visually stimulating and it enhances their sex life? They should be thanking those porn stars who put their vaginas and dignity on the line for the sake of others enjoyment and pleasure. They are soldiers of ass, and I for one, salute them!


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

rejectedreality said:


> What about the positive side of things? Maybe some couple get off on watching porn together because they see it visually stimulating and it enhances their sex life? They should be thanking those porn stars who put their vaginas and dignity on the line for the sake of others enjoyment and pleasure. They are soldiers of ass, and I for one, salute them!


Wow, some people just completely embrace objectifying people. I guess this culture makes it really easy for you to do so.


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## MXZCCT (May 29, 2011)

Promethea said:


> The studies give it credit.


And what studies would those be? I'm sure they toss in a few statistics, personal accounts of the victimized female, and spit out a scientific conclusion right?

Its not like a female has ever cut off a male from sex. Practically unheard of.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

MXZCCT said:


> And what studies would those be? I'm sure they toss in a few statistics, personal accounts of the victimized female, and spit out a scientific conclusion right?
> 
> Its not like a female has ever cut off a male from sex. Practically unheard of.


A neuropsych major looked over the studies for me, said the representations weren't skewed.


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## ElectricHead (Jun 3, 2011)

Promethea said:


> Wow, some people just completely embrace objectifying people. I guess this culture makes it really easy for you to do so.


That's your point of view on all of it but my point is that any of our points of view aren't always the correct points of view to everyone else and no need to negatively judge others because you feel yours is correct. I guess you are better than the millions of people that enjoy their services and the thousands that enjoy servicing. 
To add, I don't care about those people to be honest. They are a pixels on a screen and I enjoy the stimulation it provides in a similar way I enjoy the music I listen to, just in different senses. 
Besides, not all porn is the same. There is the kind that truly does provide no sort of emotional connection to the viewer, reducing the act of sex to closeup shots of genitals and gaping a-holes, which doesn't do anything for me and I think it's gross. I don't want conform the world and eradicate the ultimately harmless choices of those that find it fulfilling because it doesn't match my perceptions of what I consider ideal.
There is the kind that show passionate, sensual connection in sex, and it's beautiful. Your opinion is that it's objectifying, and you might be right about that to a degree, but it isn't so damn horrible.


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## MXZCCT (May 29, 2011)

Promethea said:


> A neuropsych major looked over the studies for me, said the representations weren't skewed.


Still nothing factual. Evidence would be nice. And even then, does the study take into account the relationship factors I have pointed out? Or is it purely a study where it affects the general human brain?


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## Kloloft (Dec 12, 2011)

I have no problem with porn. I do understand the argument regarding the objectification of women. I get off because I thoroughly appreciate the woman's figure. That is all. If that's objectification then I suppose most guys are guilty - and women for that matter.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

MXZCCT said:


> Still nothing factual. Evidence would be nice. And even then, does the study take into account the relationship factors I have pointed out? Or is it purely a study where it affects the general human brain?


Can Your Brain Become Hardwired to Porn?
We looked up the actual studies mentioned in the article.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

rejectedreality said:


> That's your point of view on all of it but my point is that any of our points of view aren't always the correct points of view to everyone else and no need to negatively judge others because you feel yours is correct. I guess you are better than the millions of people that enjoy their services and the thousands that enjoy servicing.
> To add, I don't care about those people to be honest. They are a pixels on a screen and I enjoy the stimulation it provides in a similar way I enjoy the music I listen to, just in different senses.
> Besides, not all porn is the same. There is the kind that truly does provide no sort of emotional connection to the viewer, reducing the act of sex to closeup shots of genitals and gaping a-holes, which doesn't do anything for me and I think it's gross. I don't want conform the world and eradicate the ultimately harmless choices of those that find it fulfilling because it doesn't match my perceptions of what I consider ideal.
> There is the kind that show passionate, sensual connection in sex, and it's beautiful. Your opinion is that it's objectifying, and you might be right about that to a degree, but it isn't so damn horrible.


Just because something isn't in front of you in flesh and bone doesn't mean the imagined experience has no affect on one's heart, and mind. It certainly does. Those 'harmless' pixels teach an entire civilization about women, unfortunately. Sex education and healthy socialization? Internet porn. These days, many men, especially some awkward loners can learn all about women from the internet, without ever having to interact with a real one. I have known far too many twisted guys like these, my friend, to say that their sick little pixelated fantasy worlds are harmless. They can have some very maladjusted and vile attitudes toward women. Look at 4chan ffs.


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## Manhattan (Jul 13, 2011)

Promethea said:


> Is it impossible for men to masturbate to their significant other?


 Good point. As a variety thinker, I usually don't think this way and haven't found it to be the norm with my friends. 



> And in the case where you say "would we blame the woman, if the man walking down the street said shes hot" -- actually thats a case where he wasn't actually out seeking to find women that he thinks are hot, like he is when hes looking up porn - and its his fault of course, just like looking up porn.


 My point is that he's a pig if he tells his wife that another woman is hotter than her, or hot in general...especially when she's pregnant! Obviously that guy is a bastard, porn or not. 



> I can see how you wouldn't, seeing as you don't strive for the level of mental/emotional loyalty that some do.


 I take issue with that. I don't consider myself disloyal. I think a relationship is built on emotional, intellectual, and sexual compatibility, NOT sexual exclusivity. I view jealousy as a sign of a lack of trust, which doesn't exactly mix with loyalty. (If not a lack of trust, a failure to see that one's partner doesn't think the way they do.)

But you're right; Changing someone's values is tiring, if it's even possible which it mostly isn't. My point revolved around the generalization of porn as always being harmful. IMO; it's only really harmful if either party is immature. No different from blaming violent video games and movies if you ask me.


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## Proteus (Mar 5, 2010)

Promethea said:


> Well, lets get some fringe-pickers in here to drop some non sequiturs, and we can have this thing running in fractals when it cycles back around to no one changing their strong opinions. : D


I want to see it turn into a mobius strip.


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## reletative (Dec 17, 2010)

marzipan01 said:


> Look, all I'm saying is people aren't really given a lot of options. And as long as everyone keeps on thinking that these are individual issues we are keeping our awareness of the collective issue low and unable to recognize the problem. When you found that semi-nice guy to shack up with you said yourself that you had nothing else to fall back on.
> 
> And I'm supposed to accept that this was completely your fault and that all this was completely in your hands and every decision and everything that happened to you was completely your decision? That the fact that you didn't have a safety net in any capacity, that was your fault because you are in charge of everything that happens and your life runs completely independent of the interconnected network of humanity itself.
> 
> ...


Okay, see I think the point of what I'm saying has kind of been missed. I'm saying you can't lump it all together. There ARE individual cases, and there ARE different areas of the sex industry that I just dont think are that hurtful to the participants. There ARE women who dont' mind it, and aren't degraded by it. I feel like you are blanketing every sex worker as being somehow "unaware of what they're doing to themselves". I just dont agree. Yes there are people in the sex industry who are hurt by it. But tehre are also people who aren't. For some people, sex is just a physical act. I simply don't believe that sex is universally spiritual. That's my own opinion, and if you disagree that's fine. 



Promethea said:


> Just because your perception and experiences differ doesn't mean you're any more correct or wise. Besides, its probably better to just disagree with the topic than get so personal. The "I hope this doesn't sound condescending" part naturally primes it for what it is, condescension -- or why would have that been a thought.


Actually i said it because, in the past, when i have simply stated my opinion or impression, people have taken it personally rather than impersonally. So i have adopted the habit of prefacing my opinions with warnings. I am simply recognizing that there are 2 ways to take what i said...one is condescending, one is just a statement of my impression. Also I'm not sure what you mean by "get so personal"...are you talking about me sharing a personal story? Because I would rather hear a personal experience from someone, then rambling opinions from someone with zero experience with what they're talking about. I'm just sayin...




> And *I* find it 'naive' that so many people completely ignore the fact that culture affects the individuals. All of this "I'm the only one who decides" that I see, well, none of us would be who we are, if we were raised in a different culture in the first place. There could be different opportunities for people who are slower in public schools. Public schooling is just another construct of our civilization in the first place, yet people who don't do well in it, just seem to get lost in this country like they never had a chance. They are likely perfectly cut out for something but what options are they really given, when they are pushed through the same assembly line with the kids who happen to do well in public school.
> 
> Turning to the sex industry is unfortunate. And you can argue that some of them don't feel degraded, and sure, I have known women who had become -desensitized- enough to stop feeling that way. Will they ever become truly genuinely happy self-actualized human beings though, or will they just continue to scrape by with the message in their ears that they are only as good as their body? What happens to those who work in the sex industry when they get too old to do it anymore? No, that quality of life is not some kind of only option, or even good option. Its just one of the slummy things that happen to exist, that the lost can turn to. I'm not proposing society just gets rid of the sex industry - but just pointing out some facts here.
> 
> ...


You did not understand my post at ALL. And i didn't call anyone lazy or stupid. Don't put words in my mouth.


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## Manhattan (Jul 13, 2011)

Promethea said:


> Depends on your definition of monogamy. What counts as cheating will differ from couple to couple. Most people can agree that emotional cheating exists, yet they will say that fantasizing about having sex with others isn't cheating, though it exists in the same place. The physical manifestations of both the emotional cheating and the sexual fantasy are both cheating: so why is only one real in the mind?


It's probably a question with several answers. I'd say though that fantasizing about someone besides one's partner sexually is typically just an act of shallow instant gratification used to help them get off. Not much of a threat. Now imagine a situation where you'd be fantasizing about someone besides your partner emotionally. Going on walks with you, holding hands, etc. Not very instant or shallow, right? It isn't conditional on sex or being aroused, rather likely more of a lingering thought, and it's a deeper longing. For a traditional relationship, that's a killer. 



redmanXNTP said:


> What do you suppose this last part of the article meant? I couldn't make sense of it.
> 
> _"Is it possible to cheat without feeling bad about it? _
> _
> When people behave in a highly motivated manner, "they experience less guilt," Fisher told LiveScience. "In these instances, people seem more capable of justifying their actions to themselves, which reduces feelings of guilt." "_


It is confusing... I suppose that the more motivated you are to do something, the harder you try to justify it. As we know we can justify almost anything. 

Another theory: Have you ever done something you shouldn't have and realized that it wasn't even worth it? It's funny how that intensifies guilt, when guilt should be all about the mistake. Evidently it's (severity of mistake)-(how great what you did was)=(total guilt) I like this equation, because it can end up with the individual actually being happy if something was good enough, which is realistic.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Khys said:


> You did not understand my post at ALL. And i didn't call anyone lazy or stupid. Don't put words in my mouth.


Ah, yes, I can't possibly see how I could have read that into this:



Khys said:


> i'm sorry i know that's politically incorrect, but i have over 400 students sit across my desk from me in a year.....trust me...some of them should stick to cleaning bathrooms, picking fruit, or pulling a factory lever. for another percentage of them, even with their government grant funded education, they will still go back to the "menial" jobs because they make too many stupid decisions and lame excuses. they simply wont take responsibility for their own life.


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## reletative (Dec 17, 2010)

Promethea said:


> Ah, yes, I can't possibly see how I could have read that into this:
> 
> 
> 
> > i'm sorry i know that's politically incorrect, but i have over 400 students sit across my desk from me in a year.....trust me...some of them should stick to cleaning bathrooms, picking fruit, or pulling a factory lever. for another percentage of them, even with their government grant funded education, they will still go back to the "menial" jobs because they make too many stupid decisions and lame excuses. they simply wont take responsibility for their own life.


yes you did read into it. there are people in the world that aren't very smart, and there are people in the world that dont want to work. that's a fact. i'm not picking on the underdog or the learning disabled.... i'm disagreeing with marzipan's statement that menial labor is degrading. it's not.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

ManhattanINTP said:


> It's probably a question with several answers. I'd say though that fantasizing about someone besides one's partner sexually is typically just an act of shallow instant gratification used to help them get off. Not much of a threat. Now imagine a situation where you'd be fantasizing about someone besides your partner emotionally. Going on walks with you, holding hands, etc. Not very instant or shallow, right? It isn't conditional on sex or being aroused, rather likely more of a lingering thought, and it's a deeper longing. For a traditional relationship, that's a killer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fantasizing about another isn't a one-time thing for those who do it, and as that study demonstrated, it will make them form more of a preference for the fantasy in many cases.

Actually having sex with another can be a five minute thing that a person just walks away from too - yet thats still technically considered cheating.

A person can cheat emotionally, not actually spend their physical time with the person they are cheating with, and still appear to want their partner even though their romantic fantasies are about another.

Its not really even the duration of the mental infidelity that would hurt, but the desire for another behind the infidelity. In some cases, sure the emotional cheating could last for more segments of minutes strung together.. who really cares though. It is what it is.

To me they are indeed the same.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Khys said:


> yes you did read into it. there are people in the world that aren't very smart, and there are people in the world that dont want to work. that's a fact. i'm not picking on the underdog or the learning disabled.... i'm disagreeing with marzipan's statement that menial labor is degrading. it's not.


I'm curious as to what makes you differentiate between those who have a genuine issue, and those who just don't want to do shit? Because I think that in many cases where people lack motivation, they are dealing with depression.


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## reletative (Dec 17, 2010)

Promethea said:


> I'm curious as to what makes you differentiate between those who have a genuine issue, and those who just don't want to do shit?


not sure what you mean?



> Because I think that in many cases where people lack motivation, they are dealing with depression.


sometimes that's true, sometimes it isn't. i guess i just dont think that people always have good intentions but their circumstances got them down. sometimes you can't blame circumstances, its' just that person's own fault.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Khys said:


> not sure what you mean?
> 
> 
> 
> sometimes that's true, sometimes it isn't. i guess i just dont think that people always have good intentions but their circumstances got them down. sometimes you can't blame circumstances, its' just that person's own fault.


I don't think that failure and giving up are in the human spirit. Human beings want to thrive and be happy. When someone has fallen off course, I think theres certainly something wrong that needs to be addressed.


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## reletative (Dec 17, 2010)

marzipan01 said:


> You don't think your situation pushed you into making certain decisions? Clearly, you weren't the hugest fan of the situation, it wasn't your first option, otherwise your post would have said that you were married to that semi-nice guy you shacked up with. I mean sure you had other options: you could be a prostitute, you could work in adult films, you could be a stripper, but you decided to shack up with a nice guy who would let you stay there. I think that was the best move out of your alternatives. I'm just saying, wouldn't it have been really nice if you had an additional alternative?



how many different alternatives is society responsible for providing to me? like i said, there WERE alternatives, and i didn't take them. i see that as my own responsibility, yes. no one else's.


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## reletative (Dec 17, 2010)

Promethea said:


> I don't think that failure and giving up are in the human spirit. Human beings want to thrive and be happy. When someone has fallen off course, I think theres certainly something wrong that needs to be addressed.


i guess i just have a more black and white view. i mean i'm not totally cold to the fact that everyone could use a little help at some point, i just see responsibility as being more individual in the end.

i dunno i dont really think you can blame "the nameless faceless sex industry" for all degradation and brokeness. i think in the end, everyone is personally responsible for themselves


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Khys said:


> i guess i just have a more black and white view. i mean i'm not totally cold to the fact that everyone could use a little help at some point, i just see responsibility as being more individual in the end.


Any person whos life is failing would choose to be more responsible, I'm certain. I guess the question is, why would they continue to make bad decisions on purpose, to make their situation worse?


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## MXZCCT (May 29, 2011)

Promethea said:


> Well, lets get some fringe-pickers in here to drop some non sequiturs, and we can have this thing running in fractals when it cycles back around to no one changing their strong opinions. : D


I could gather a few individuals in here to get this thread really wild. But, I do not have the intention to insult anyone and I can tell that would be the ultimate factor here when everything is said and done. This thread has the potential to get *really* personal.

I do not feel like getting banned just yet. I'm trying to learn some restraint.


Porn is good for the soul.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

MXZCCT said:


> Porn is good for the soul.


Well supposedly fried chicken is good for the soul too, and it just clogs arteries. Can't beat that logic, my friend. : P


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## MXZCCT (May 29, 2011)

Promethea said:


> Well supposedly fried chicken is good for the soul too, and it just clogs arteries. Can't beat that logic, my friend. : P


Alright then, if what you say is true.

Let's just say you have an SO who has cut you off from sex (not like -that- ever happens!), and you got the urge to clean them pipes so to speak. Porn isn't so bad, compared to Ms. Girl Next Door who loves to swing them hips and blows kisses. :shocked:


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

MXZCCT said:


> Alright then, if what you say is true.
> 
> Let's just say you have an SO who has cut you off from sex (not like -that- ever happens!), and you got the urge to clean them pipes so to speak. Porn isn't so bad, compared to Ms. Girl Next Door who loves to swing them hips and blows kisses. :shocked:


I think I would just turn to fantasizing about him while using my.. toys.

And indulging in.. too much fried chicken!


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

Eh, looks like this thread's gone way off topic, but I'll give my opinion on the matter anyway. 

Where there is a supply there is a demand. And so long as men have their "needs", there will always be third party outlets for their sexual fulfillment, whether it they legal or illegal. Good luck shutting down the latter for good. Personally, I have no strong stance when it comes to these services, since they're so diverse and widespread. Some I'm against, like forced prostitution and rape, but others, like escort services I can definitely see the pros to. Who can say where some of these people would be if not for? Surely, some would be in better places, but I'm also sure many more would be worse off. 

For me, it's just another reminder of how vital sex is in our lives. In this regard, we're not so unlike other animals. Because we're surrounded by these things constantly, it can take several steps to finally see the big picture from a detached standpoint. In fact, I'd say it's a more cultural problem in our case. In other cultures, marriage is the big thing, so is having children, but here... we can't be bothered by such things. Sex, pleasure, that's the goal. Kids, marriage, and STDs are just inconveniences. Who cares what side effects those pills have in the long run, so long as you can have your play time today? 

In the end, it's just another commodity.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

WamphyriThrall said:


> Eh, looks like this thread's gone way off topic, but I'll give my opinion on the matter anyway.
> 
> Where there is a supply there is a demand. And so long as men have their "needs", there will always be third party outlets for their sexual fulfillment, whether it they legal or illegal. Good luck shutting down the latter for good. Personally, I have no strong stance when it comes to these services, since they're so diverse and widespread. Some I'm against, like forced prostitution and rape, but others, like escort services I can definitely see the pros to. Who can say where some of these people would be if not for? Surely, some would be in better places, but I'm also sure many more would be worse off.
> 
> ...


want != need.

plenty of men seem to have good enough lives without turning to hookers. -_-

and.. what causes some people to have such a sex drive that they turn to reckless and illicit things? well not all people do it.. so its unfair to just call it a male need in general, like its just some simple fact of nature that men need to behave this way. many can somehow manage to get by without fetishizing airbrushed images and paying for sex.


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## MXZCCT (May 29, 2011)

Promethea said:


> I think I would just turn to fantasizing about him while using my.. toys.
> 
> And indulging in.. too much fried chicken!


Talk about getting a girl to practically eat out of your hand.


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

Promethea said:


> want != need.
> 
> plenty of men seem to have good enough lives without turning to hookers. -_-
> 
> and.. what causes some people to have such a sex drive that they turn to reckless and illicit things? well not all people do it.. so its unfair to just call it a male need in general, like its just some simple fact of nature that men need to behave this way. many can somehow manage to get by without fetishizing airbrushed images and paying for sex.


Sex is a psysiological need, and every single guy I know my age masturbates at least a few times a week. Those who are fortunate enough to have a girlfriend don't have to, at least not as much. But there are a lot of single guys out there, and not everyone wants to or can afford to be in a relationship to receive sex, as much as is needed, especially when being in one won't guarantee you that. Some turn to prostitutes. Some turn to seducing women. Some turn to rape. A good number masturbate. The outcomes are as diverse as the men themselves but they stem, at least in part, to one thing. The way it's always been. Unless every hotblooded heterosexual male becomes castrati, it will continue.


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