# Are They 4s?



## mushr00m

siouxsie sioux has gotta be a 4 or 4 would be her second fix and sx dom so perhaps sx 4.


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## MegTheStrayer

No, Lana is not a 4. She's got some 4-ish aesthetic and fixations, but she is the poster girl for sexual 6. Probably 6-4-9.

I've been a huge fan of Tori since the 90s. She's a sexual 7 with a heavy 6 wing. 7-2-9. Bjork's a 4-6-8 tritype.

Kate's a 7w8. Not sure about her tritype.


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## koalaroo

Type Fiona Apple.  (Although, I think she's a 6)


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## Animal

koalaroo said:


> Type Fiona Apple.  (Although, I think she's a 6)


7w6!!!!!

http://personalitycafe.com/type-7-f...-7-music-playlist-journey-3.html#post11313898

I'll copy the post content here:

* *






7 "oops I overindulged" moment - with line to 1, beating herself up, but also mocking her shame at the same time in the video. Very 7SX, this song - - "I keep living this day like the next will never come"






This is 7SX dark side at its finest.


7 frustration at being seen as 'irresponsible' etc. This song is a perfect expression of 7w6 SX - - - - PERFECT. She is singing about how she is being seen as "irresponsible" by someone else, but really she has her feet on the ground and has trouble to cause and she can't be stifled. It sounds like she's grappling with how this person stifles her by viewing her a certain way. This is a 7 SX expression if i have heard one in my entire life...












Not 6. 7w6SX!!

This is 6SX:


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## koalaroo

@_Animal_ -- Here's kind of why I see 6 for her (or at least not 7):


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## MegTheStrayer

koalaroo said:


> Type Fiona Apple.  (Although, I think she's a 6)


Fiona - 6-4-8 sx/so.


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## Animal

These are some of the best examples of 4 female singers I've seen. Everything has fallen into place now.. thanks @Roshan



As for Fiona Apple.. I will have to write this up tomorrow but I still think she's a 7w6 core. Not sure about fixes but at a glance I'd say 7-4-9


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## Superfluous

Fiona Apple: sexual 7. The night time is when a 7 can't distract themselves, or make humor out of the pain, the air gets still like the calm before the storm, and when the moon rises, so does the truth, and so does the anxiety. And you would be a liar to just deny the pain, and the craziness emotions make you feel.


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## galactic collision

Agree with a lot of this, but still think Regina is a 4. Probably 479 - so 9 is there, but she gives off such a 4 vibe to me. 


Start at 6:11 -





The song that defines her as a 4 imo:


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## Roshan

mushr00m said:


> siouxsie sioux has gotta be a 4 or 4 would be her second fix and sx dom so perhaps sx 4.


See post here, page 9, @3:39 PM.. Siouxie can't be anything but 4-leading, despite the plumage and trappings that come with the core type which make her a very unusual (but again, for that, a paradoxically prototypical) 4.

http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...2138-lana-del-rey-not-4-a-9.html#post11654674


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## Animal

koalaroo said:


> @_Animal_ -- Here's kind of why I see 6 for her (or at least not 7):


I still see 7. Interesting video though!


... She's singing about being trapped inside her mind, and being unable to escape the pain. Then she keeps saying, I just want to feel everything. This is an expression of gluttony. She wants to feel _everything._ But she is _trapped_ inside her mind. 

7's fear - being trapped or deprived. She is feeling deprived of feelings and trapped in her mind.

She has a strong 6 wing for sure, and is very aware of the workings of her mind - but she is singing about _frustration_ at being trapped in her mind.

The sarcastic smile at the end of this really dark song is also very 7ish, somehow. Not implying that sixes can't laugh etc.. but the placement of it. She expresses her pain and then laughs at it.


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## Roshan

Comparing the Passenger by the strongly 4-fixed head type who wrote it and the 4 who covered it.











Somebody's fundamentally in the world but with fear-based thinking and strategizing about it. Somebody's not in it and feels that non-embodiment painfully.

btw my money's on Iggy for cph 6w7 but I'm open to the 7w6--and less so but still open to the 7w8-- that are also out there for him by good typers. And cph 6w7 isn't impossible for a head fix for Siouxsie, especially with an 8w7 gut fix. But my money's so far on 7w8. She is so _organicall_y a _diva_.


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## Roshan

@_Animal_, @_koalaroo_, @_Superfluous_ ,

About Fiona Apple, I got strongly 4-fixed sx 6w7 from looking at some interviews, but I would have to delve further. I agree, the music videos above may be more on the 7 side--very dark side of 7. I am really not familiar with her; she is just someone I missed along the way, and also someone I was planning on looking into because she kept coming up as an exemplar of a 'true 4' on professionals' lists and in discussions. The "debate "was restricted to what wing on the 4, and 5 was generally preferred, I suppose as a concession to the headiness. But 4w5 "headiness" is nothing like her--that buzzy, 'regular guy', torrent of words, ingratiating "lemme think about it, but wait, oh, yeah, okay, ya know"..." I see head, head, and more head coming out of her, and 6/7 line. I don't understand how she could be typed as anything but head. It makes me wonder is there something I'm just not understanding.

After all, I'm still a 6, so still "looking for confirmation from authorities" if I'm not attached enough to the person to get a strong enough gut reaction that just makes me want to topple the mistyping. Can't find one single confirmation though, from anyone remotely resembling an "authority", to get her out of 4. But I just don't see it.


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## Roshan

Also, I think Sarah McLachlan may be an sx LAST 4. (sp/so).

4 itself is so sx and she has sooooo many social concerns and activities. And she is so "everyman" in so many ways: affect, way of dressing, her music, her "Lilith Fair", her school, her social cause fundraiser videos. She may be one of the sp/so 4s like Paul Simon. I have seen her typed as sx/sp 4w3. That is an extreme diva typing often attributed to people like Maria Callas and Martha Graham--and with reason--and that Sarah is not. So many interviews confirm this. I have also seen her typed as sp/sx 4 and social last of any type just seems weird. But sp/sx--where is that demonic downward pull, either in her music or her interviews, which is so clear in Joni Mitchell, for example, in the Woodstock (song title) video, despite the social content of the song and her casual, uncontrived appearance. These typings of Sarah may just be a case of confusing pure 4ness with sx.


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## Animal

Roshan said:


> After all, I'm still a 6, so still "looking for confirmation from authorities" if I'm not attached enough to the person to get a strong enough gut reaction that just makes me want to topple the mistyping. Can't find one single confirmation though, from anyone remotely resembling an "authority", to get her out of 4. But I just don't see it.


Hehehe this made me smile.

I don't even check the "authorities," though sometimes after I Have typed someone myself, I go to see what others have written about it. Some of the enneagram "authorities" have written some questionable things... frankly.. these two threads, your comments on 4, are more insightful than most I have stumbled on. I do like to pick the brains of people who *make sense* and whose explanations resonate. Or people who seem to have a bizarre perspective but I want to hear more of it.

I guess "authority" holds very little meaning to me, but if I were looking for an opinion on a subject, seeing that someone types Fiona at 4 and leaves no other option would be a tell-tale *n00b red flag* haha. I typed her at 4 when I was a n00b too. stupidly. Hopefully nobody listened to me. 

All of her music strikes me as "real" 7. Not 6w7 expression of 7. When I see 6w7s express their 7 wing its usually in the realm of adventurousness. That kind of 'darkness' that she gets at, in the realm of 7ish issues, it's hard to imagine a 6w7 doing. "I keep living this day like the next will never come" ... I don't know. Sixes think ahead. I know some sixes berate themselves for being impulsive, but it's..jfdgdkjfh doesn't feel right , her as a core 6. She uses some 6 triggers like "betrayal" and "Don't trust people" but where is the authority tension, where is the 'afraid of her fear' ...etc. Where is the strength and beauty? 

I love your explanation of strength and beauty coming from the body and its expression physically. This turns me on so much more htan 4 descriptions, I can't even believe that people on enneagram forums attribute such glamor to the idea of archetype 4 and not to 6.


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## Roshan

Animal said:


> Hehehe this made me smile.
> 
> I don't even check the "authorities," though sometimes after I Have typed someone myself, I go to see what others have written about it. Some of the enneagram "authorities" have written some questionable things... frankly.. these two threads, your comments on 4, are more insightful than most I have stumbled on. I do like to pick the brains of people who *make sense* and whose explanations resonate. Or people who seem to have a bizarre perspective but I want to hear more of it.
> 
> I guess "authority" holds very little meaning to me, but if I were looking for an opinion on a subject, seeing that someone types Fiona at 4 and leaves no other option would be a tell-tale *n00b red flag* haha. I typed her at 4 when I was a n00b too. stupidly. Hopefully nobody listened to me.
> 
> All of her music strikes me as "real" 7. Not 6w7 expression of 7. When I see 6w7s express their 7 wing its usually in the realm of adventurousness. That kind of 'darkness' that she gets at, in the realm of 7ish issues, it's hard to imagine a 6w7 doing. "I keep living this day like the next will never come" ... I don't know. Sixes think ahead. I know some sixes berate themselves for being impulsive, but it's..jfdgdkjfh doesn't feel right , her as a core 6. She uses some 6 triggers like "betrayal" and "Don't trust people" but where is the authority tension, where is the 'afraid of her fear' ...etc. Where is the strength and beauty?
> 
> I love your explanation of strength and beauty coming from the body and its expression physically. This turns me on so much more htan 4 descriptions, I can't even believe that people on enneagram forums attribute such glamor to the idea of archetype 4 and not to 6.


And a hehehe to you.

I think checking with the 'authorities' is still a good thing as long as there are others like you to point out the folly of it!

This is sx 6, in a nutshell.

https://www.google.com/search?q=the...a=X&ei=PgJEVIbOG_fesATHyoDYDw&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg

And also this.

https://www.google.com/search?q=fla...a=X&ei=sAJEVJ__I6zCsATutIKoCg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg

The first Enneagram book I read was Eli Jaxon-Bear's, and I was also involved with his group for a couple of years. That was almost ten years ago. He identified Spain as an sx-6 country and the bullfight as the essential metaphor for it. ("An 8 would just shoot the bull".) You are the only person other than him that I've come across who has fully articulated it. I really appreciate it. 

Fiona as sx 4 and Sarah McLachlan as not sx last 4 are standard, across-the-board(s) typings by professionals and others who may as well be. If only they were "noobs". If only... 

Sarah McLachlan is either an sx last 4 or she is some other type leading. I will look at Fiona more closely in a bit.


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## Animal

I have always loved this song. I feel like 4s have a lot of resentment about the idea that they're expected to be perfect. Type 1s want to be perfect, 4s realize they can't be perfect but at least they can be unique. If you can't be the best/ better than others, be different..be something that nobody else could possibly compare to. If you're an alien you can't be compared unfavorably to humans... you're off the scale.

That's why 4s integrate to 1.. it's an acceptance of what it's like to be human. It's finding that you are enough, that you're perfect just the way you are, without having to be different or alien. It's about being comfortable with humanity and what unites you with everyone else (holy origin) ... accepting that we all come from the same mold and you are enough anyway. That's why integration is so hard... I know this intellectually, but I rarely feel it, feel that I can be like others, and human, JUST human, without having to be a "symbol of myself" .. and still be enough, still be me, still be significant... still exist.


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## Roshan

justforthespark said:


> Agree with a lot of this, but still think Regina is a 4. Probably 479 - so 9 is there, but she gives off such a 4 vibe to me.
> 
> 
> Start at 6:11 -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The song that defines her as a 4 imo:


Yeah, you might be right. My process on Regina was something like this--had the strong impression she was a 9w1 for a long time, went back to check it after starting posting here, was very surprised to see she seemed to "bleed heart" after all ("vibes like a heart type"), then saw a couple of things where I really wasn't sure, thought 9 again, then one of the only two people who corroborate my 2 typing of Lana del Rey says Regina is a 9. Then a hullabaloo breaks out on the LDR thread and reactively (4 fixed sx-6) I set up this one with the concomitant title. Actually today I was thinking, after reading @_Entropic_ 's suggestion, that I should change the title to "Are they really 4s?". (That was before I watched your videos. If I knew how I would. I guess I could ask the mods to do it if I can't. I think you can't change anything here after 24 hours).

There are a lot of VERY 9ish things about Regina (which means implicitly in some sense "non-4") but one thing I have to say is she does bleed heart. I was thinking 9-4-6 but I could see 4-9-7 soc/sx. (The 7/9 could give the buoyancy and quality of "all is well after all is said and done" to the 4). I'm on the fence again. Will think about it. Thanks.


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## Animal

Does anyone have thoughts about the wings of these proposed 4s?

Regina (if she is a 4), Sousie Sioux, Alanis, Sarah McLachlan, Emilie Autumn, Annie Lennox, Leonard Cohen, Kurt Cobain, Marilyn Manson ... (or anyone I left out) anyone have any propositions about wings? wing 3 or wing 5? Or instincts which havent been posted yet?

I think 
@Roshan suggested
Sp/So for Sarah Mclachlin
Sx/So for Susie

A few people including me have suggested
So/Sx for Marilyn Manson

Curious if anyone has other thoughts


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## Roshan

Animal said:


> That's why 4s integrate to 1.. it's an acceptance of what it's like to be human. It's finding that you are enough, that you're perfect just the way you are, without having to be different or alien. It's about being comfortable with humanity and what unites you with everyone else (holy origin) ... accepting that we all come from the same mold and you are enough anyway. That's why integration is so hard... I know this intellectually, but I rarely feel it, feel that I can be like others, and human, JUST human, without having to be a "symbol of myself" .. and still be enough, still be me, still be significant... still exist.


Right, and one of the things which speaks strongly against Regina's being a 4 is her fundamental sense of herself as a human, and of others as equal humans that are part of the human family. Her _organic humanness. _Consider a song like "Human of the Year". But on the other hand, what about health level? Could a healthy 4 be dedicated to celebrating that common humanity? Regina is what we Russian Jews (like she is) call "a mensch", and one who celebrates others being "a mensch". This is 9 territory, not 4. But could it conceivably become so?....she is SO 9ish, yet so heartish...and I don't mean that in any cliched way. She "bleeds heart" in a way that Siouxsie does. But not as specifically 4ishly to me; just some kind of purely heart quality (as in NOT head or gut). And she seems extremely self-conscious. More like a social 4 than a 9. And yet...


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## Roshan

renata.somogji.lugarov said:


> J.


?


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## Roshan

Kink said:


> Gee, now I'm not sure... But this song seem like the most obvious example, even though it's not my favorite:


And "what if I'm a mermaid"? Seems pretty much a direct tribute. Tori's "Silent All These Years" was on "Little Earthquakes", a groundbreaking album of 1991 that dealt with themes of abandonment, identity, memory and speaking up about abuse that profoundly influenced a whole generation of young women. Emilie it seems would've been 12 at the time.






Nothing more 4ish than Little Earthquakes but Tori...


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## Roshan

And this is Emilie Autumn, the person, not just the songs. 











Thoughts?


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## Animal

@_Roshan_
I started to move away from a 4 typing for Emilie Autumn when I heard this song..






"Thank God I'm pretty"


Before that, I had a few lines in common with her, scary lyric commonalities. But then I started noticing an underlying theme that is lacking in my own and in other 4s we have discussed,

4s feel a sense of lack.. 7s equally feel 'apart' from the world but it's more that they're "above" it... 

... in that song.. "Thank god I'm pretty" - and how sarcastic it is... I thought of my 7 and 6 friends. I cant imagine a 4 singing that..

.. I don't like to type someone just on one song.. but a gut feeling, after hearing that, was 7w6. She has the 7w6 spiteful sarcasm, the narcissism, the feeling of being some divine otherworldly creature, the idealism....

Everything..more and more and more and more...and more..

I.. am leaning toward 7. I'll get back to this with further thoughts.

The original song you mentioned, it's funny, it felt 4ish, but now that you mention how similar it is to "Silent all these years" - I related to that one too.. all my life.. yet Tori is a 7. Your'e so right with that comparison!!

I wonder what some 7s will think of Emilie Autumn - @_Eclipsed_ @_Superfluous_ 7?



She is so confident, not self conscious..
She sang in one song that she's shameless and I actually believe her..


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## Animal

Disclaimer: I never heard of Emilie Autumn until this thread, when @_Kink_ linked her, so my thoughts are nascent, but I'm already moving away from 4 and feeling 7 , as a preliminary alternate possibility


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## Roshan

@_Animal_ , 

I never heard of her either but I started to move away from 4 as soon as she opened her mouth.

I didn't say so first cuz I didn't wanna be a party pooper again!

I'm getting 6/7 line with 4 and 1 fixes and sp last, with strong sx and soc both. OCD and not far from me either. I dunno, could 7 with a strong 6 wing do it?....she has the "limits setting" way of speaking of the 1-fixed 6, and also the gestures, but something is not Sixish. Something is very different.

One of the things I've been getting from these exchanges is a sense that I don't really understand the "dark 7" and I have to think about that.

(Disclaimer: I do understand Gaga's archetypal Hero theme, and her entrenched, earnest _engagement_, as NOT 7ish).

Again, likewise, I didn't know Emilie Autumn. And I don't get 4 as base metabolism at all. Withdrawn, interiorized image triader just seems wrong...again, she's _right there. 

_I know sp last 4s with strong sx and soc. I have an sx/soc 4 singer friend. It doesn't feel like this. She's very much like Siouxsie. And soc/sx 4s--that's almost the opposite. So much conscious shame.

4 is liquid. Strong sx 4 is very liquid (unless it's sp/sx. That's its own thing). This woman isn't liquid.

I dunno. I could be wrong. I'm interested, if someone thinks she's a 4, in knowing why.


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## Animal

Roshan said:


> @_Animal_ ,
> 
> I never heard of her either but I started to move away from 4 as soon as she opened her mouth.
> 
> I didn't say so first cuz I didn't wanna be a party pooper again!
> 
> I'm getting 6/7 line with 4 and 1 fixes and sp last, with strong sx and soc both. OCD and not far from me either. 7 with a strong 6 wing could do it....


I agreed with @_Kink_ that the FIRST song she linked was 4ish. That song was my first impression.The first impression was that song which you said was similar to "Silent all these Years."

It's so funny you brought that song up because Silent all these Years is the Tori song I relate to most, along with that album> I don't relate much to any of her later works.

When I realized Tori was a 7 I was sort of upset.



The thing that made me hesitate with Tori was THAT SONG. It clicked in my head why.. with Emilie.. every other song didn't feel like 4.. but that one did.

I might not be making sense. I didn't sleep last night. But for me those associations make sense why they felt "4ish" at a glance. But the rest of her songs seemed from a differnet planet. Especially her confidence.

7w6 feels very likely. Definitely 4 FIX though, and I would lean 4w3 I think.

P.S. I think she's bipolar?


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## Roshan

Animal said:


> 4s feel a sense of lack.. 7s equally feel 'apart' from the world but it's more that they're "above" it...
> 
> ... in that song.. "Thank god I'm pretty" - and how sarcastic it is... I thought of my 7 and 6 friends. I cant imagine a 4 singing that..
> 
> .. I don't like to type someone just on one song.. but a gut feeling, after hearing that, was 7w6. She has the 7w6 spiteful sarcasm, the narcissism, the feeling of being some divine otherworldly creature, the idealism....
> 
> Everything..more and more and more and more...and more.....
> 
> 
> She is so confident, not self conscious..
> .


4-fixed sp last 7 I think can be other-worldly like ethereal and airy. The land of the faeries. Conveys an impression of ethereality.

4 itself just _is _otherworldly. Doesn't convey, just is. And not airy fairy. Watery. And darker waters. I do know a 7w6-4w3-9w1 sx/soc who thinks she's a mermaid (the way Tori thinks she's a fairy). But mermaids communicate with us. They swim around and flirt with sailors. They don't live too far down in the deep. A mermaid is a water fairy.

4s aren't fairies.

The deal breaker for me is just what you say.

_*Not self-conscious.

*_She's_ right there*. 

*_For all the chaos and "tragedy" of her life, there is no fundamental sense of lack. No hole in the identity self. No "tragic flaw".


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## Animal

Roshan said:


> 4s aren't fairies.


Alanis Morissette and Sarah McLachlin are more in touch with their vulnerability though. Alanis has the long hair, youth and freedom.. Sarah has the sweetness and desperation in her voice.

I think 4s have a memory of a time when they had their "innocence" which was lost. This is the sense of lost paradise. Some 4s can come to embody that in their image or expression, especially if their expression is something that they did as a child (like music), some symbol of the self when it was more whole before it was destroyed. (Even though every 4 knows, bitterly, that this memory might not have happened, that they were just born this way, there is still that irrational sense of.. what once was, what could have been, what destiny was stolen unfairly.) Envy is longing and longing is yearning. The paradise almost was... and a 4 might masochistically dress to represent that lost paradise only to tear it down and watch it burn over and over and over again.

A self-image as a fairy would be unlikely, but an embodiment of innocence being destroyed could be something a 4 would express. Destruction.creation..cycles. There's always a dark destroyed side. A 4 won't have good without evil, won't have wings without a the body of a beast.


This is a perfect 4 and she does have her sweet side, her longing for her innocence and reunion with it at the end

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Éponine

A 4 might also masochistically embody an image of what once was or could have been. So I'd be cautious in making a distinction like "no fairies" without going deep into their world and translating the encoded messages. What is fairy in their world, specifically? Maybe on their home planet the vampires look like fairies, wolves in sheeps' clothing. Maybe the fairy is their lost childhood. Maybe it's the ideal self. 4s are aliens from another planet..the communication isnt always one way. There won't be a box like "dark" that all 4s willingly slop themselves into.


Self-consciousness however, can't be helped. Sense of lack can't be helped.


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## Roshan

@_Animal_ , 

I think all 4s are very vulnerable, and all 4s have a sweet side. There's a fragility to all 4s. They also all can very easily go to One and spit out tacks and nails. (Which again is one of the reasons I have trouble with Regina as a 4--I don't see that. Not that I've seen all of her, of course). The flip side of the vulnerability is contempt.

I would never think of 4s as not vulnerable, or not looking in some sense for innocence lost. 

But they're not _spritely.


_They're watery, but they're not _mermaids_. 

Those are amphibious 4-fixed sx 7w6s.


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## Animal

Roshan said:


> @_Animal_ ,
> 
> I think all 4s are very vulnerable, and all 4s have a sweet side. There's a fragility to all 4s. They also all can very easily go to one and spit out tacks and nails. (Which again is one of the reasons I have trouble with Regina as a 4).
> 
> I would never think of 4s as not vulnerable, or not looking in some sense for innocence lost.
> 
> But they're not _spritely._


Yeah I see. That makes more sense. 

I edited my last post. Didn't sleep so words..are choking me up a bit.
But that makes sense. By spritely you mean like upbeat, positive, hope-bringing?


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## Roshan

Spritely as in elfin. Pixieish.

Fours aren't pixieish.

They might be capable of pixieish creations but they aren't pixieish.

They aren't _fundamentally_ whimsical. They have gravitas.

They can dress like Tinkerbell and joke around and sing songs from Peter Pan and they'll still have some kind of gravitas.

As dark as she can get and I understand has gotten in earlier times, the elfin quality of Bjork is one of the things I feel points away from 4. "Pixieish" is a word that follows her around. I can see it on a 5w4 easier than on a 4 due to the headiness. It can also happen with a certain type of 9w1, at least as I currently understand things. It's unlikely for that image to become so attached to a very famous 4. 

"Pixieish" = probably not 4.

Not to say there aren't 7s that have gravitas but when someone starts comparing themselves to a fairy or a mermaid, or starts being commonly compared to one, I feel we are moving away from Fourleadingland.


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## Animal

Roshan said:


> Spritely as in elfin. Pixieish.
> 
> Fours aren't pixieish.
> 
> They might be capable of pixieish creations but they aren't pixieish.
> 
> They aren't whimsical. They have gravitas.
> 
> They can dress like Tinkerbell and joke around and sing songs from Peter Pan and they'll still have some kind of gravitas.


Haha. Point well taken.


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## Roshan

@Animal , I think I may have edited that post after you replied.

Bad habit. 1-4-6 OCD. lol


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## Animal

Roshan said:


> @_Animal_ , I think I may have edited that post after you replied.
> 
> Bad habit. 1-4-6 OCD. lol


Lol. I edit everything too . I read the edit.

sarah mclachlin is slightly fairy ish. But i know what youre saying. A 4 shouldnt feel light on her feet ((her spirit feet) like a sprite. The heart of a four is heavy regardless of outfit


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## Roshan

@_Animal_ ,

Yep, you got it. *A four doesn't feel light on her spirit feet.

***


*Interesting discussion on this linked thread with lists of "4s" bandied and unbandied about:

4w3, 4w5, 5w4, 7w8, 9w8, 9w1 musicians - Page 4

(Why they put so many types in the title idk but it wound up being mostly about 4s.) A quote to remember (9/28/2010, 9:43 pm):

"we have to stop associating all sx doms with e4. i think e4 is severely overtyped around these parts. i actually don't agree with hardly any of the 4w3s in this thread any more. i need a new 4w3 reference, bc my 4w3 concept is all sorts of fucked up."

_*
We have to stop associating all sx doms with e4.

*_Ironically, it was in reply to someone saying Siouxsie Sioux is probably an sx 8w7. Ah, well. There is no God but God and the Whoopie Cushion is Its name.

The woman at the top of this google search (four images in the top row) was a very close friend who passed away that was an sx/soc 8w9-4w3-6w7 cph.Very close to Nina Hagen in a different order. Siouxsie was not an 8, or a 7w8 either, as some say.

https://www.google.com/search?q=val...a=X&ei=ZvZGVMScJILIsASmnYCgAw&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

_*A four doesn't feel light on her spirit feet but she also doesn't feel heavy on her regular feet. An sx dom 8 does, even a strongly 4-fixed one*_.

And on that note, my last post for today, or I will never get anything else done. Thanks to all for all the input. It's been good.


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## Animal

The sadness in the eyes of an 8 can move me to tears.. Everyone else sees tough and i see the inner fluff 

more tomorrow


----------



## galactic collision

Animal said:


> Alanis Morissette and Sarah McLachlin are more in touch with their vulnerability though. Alanis has the long hair, youth and freedom.. Sarah has the sweetness and desperation in her voice.
> 
> I think 4s have a memory of a time when they had their "innocence" which was lost. This is the sense of lost paradise. Some 4s can come to embody that in their image or expression, especially if their expression is something that they did as a child (like music), some symbol of the self when it was more whole before it was destroyed. (Even though every 4 knows, bitterly, that this memory might not have happened, that they were just born this way, there is still that irrational sense of.. what once was, what could have been, what destiny was stolen unfairly.) Envy is longing and longing is yearning. The paradise almost was... and a 4 might masochistically dress to represent that lost paradise only to tear it down and watch it burn over and over and over again.
> 
> A self-image as a fairy would be unlikely, but an embodiment of innocence being destroyed could be something a 4 would express. Destruction.creation..cycles. There's always a dark destroyed side. A 4 won't have good without evil, won't have wings without a the body of a beast.
> 
> 
> This is a perfect 4 and she does have her sweet side, her longing for her innocence and reunion with it at the end
> 
> Éponine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> A 4 might also masochistically embody an image of what once was or could have been. So I'd be cautious in making a distinction like "no fairies" without going deep into their world and translating the encoded messages. What is fairy in their world, specifically? Maybe on their home planet the vampires look like fairies, wolves in sheeps' clothing. Maybe the fairy is their lost childhood. Maybe it's the ideal self. 4s are aliens from another planet..the communication isnt always one way. There won't be a box like "dark" that all 4s willingly slop themselves into.
> 
> 
> Self-consciousness however, can't be helped. Sense of lack can't be helped.


So (to use Regina as an example because her work - of all these artists - is most familiar to me) would a song like "Rockland County" be a good example of a 4 or 4-fix embodying the image of innocence? I'm fascinated by the way she juxtaposes a childlike-voice with the harsh, almost angry "I just know they got something coming if they got anything coming at all." Or is this not exactly what you were referring to? 






If I remember correctly, Regina has also talked about how most of her songs are not auto-biographical, even if they're in first person. This is the only song of hers I can think of that DEFINITELY comes from personal experience. She talks about leaving Russia and coming to America a lot in interviews. She doesn't otherwise speak of her personal life at all.


----------



## Animal

justforthespark said:


> a song like "Rockland County"


What!  A song called Rockland County?

That's where I'm from...

... I mean.. I'm from my home planet.. but that is where the humans tell me I'm from.. 

(why the HELL would anyone write a song about that place...)

!!!

Will comment on the rest asap. I am personally not getting 4 from her at all, but I'll try to explain in words after I've caught up on sleep.

If Alanis and Sarah and Sioux and Annie are examples of 4s they don't sing anything like this. I usually find the "random throwing in of disconnected noises" to be 7s or 9s whereas 4s sing in a more.. "grounded in their moods" way? .. 4s sing more from their chest or their heart, and they don't "dress it up" with anything that kind of fluctuates randomly between moods. That would be 'inauthentic.' Their voices might fluctuate and they might use nuances, but these would come from a place of a deep-seeded mood, rather than a quirk all on its own. Jumping between emotions like that in a vocal doesn't seem 4 enough, it doesn't "flow emotionally" enough.

Will elaborate tomorrow.


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## Animal

@_justforthespark_

In my view (and maybe I'm crazy), innocence is not about having a childlike voice (and certainly not about pretending to). Innocence is not necessarily about goodness, either. Innocence is about authenticity, being true to yourself, being the person you were born to be and who you truly are inside. I would imagine this would be how 4s see innocence? As something honest, something that communicates the feeling AS IS, a pure true expression.

Goodness can be part of that because if we are honest with ourselves, we all have compassion. (Unless we are sociopaths.) So honesty would also include being good because it feels good to be good; not being caught up in our own egos which cause us to do things that are dishonest (like try to one-up our crush, etc). On the other hand, if the 4 _feels_ jealous, it is only HONEST to sing about it, and not portray yourself as something pure and kind. It would be authentic to express the true feelings.

Putting on a fake voice, firstly - is not innocent, because it's not honest or authentic.
Putting on two different voices in the duration of one phrase is FAR from authentic. It's adding style instead of content. It's displaying different faces instead of embodying the sentiment wholly.

Of course, if that is how she feels about it, it would be honest. But in 4s, honesty would also include an emotional fluidity which would connect these different "parts of yourself" and lead to personal integrity (line to 1) -- which is often the 4's ideal self - authenticity, integrity of self, integrity of identity and its expression.

I can't see a 4 with that kind of view, seeing "innocence" as a childlike voice put on by an adult and juxtaposed quickly (not fluidly) with another voice.

She's not really embodying the image of innocence because she isn't becoming it fully. When a 4 embodies an image, what it really is, is that the image embodies THEM. The 4 is a vessel for that sense of self, that expression, that self-image, that identity. The clothes, the music, the speech - is a mirror of that identity, sense of self , what's inside, rendering the 4 , as @_Roshan_ pointed out, a hallway of internal mirrors - because the 4 is constantly examining and re-examining this sense of authentic identity.

What a 4 would want to know is - is this image REALLY me? So there is a lot of time spent digging inwards, sifting through the past to figure out what was I when I was innocent? Who was I before I lost everything? Who would I be if I could go home to my home planet? If I can be that person, and bring that person here, then I am authentic/ honest/ innocent, and have integrity. Taking that image and making it into some kind of concrete expression or concrete action (instead of ruminating about it) - like acting on your values, writing your book, recording your album.. .this ventures into integration to 1... action/ body/ gut, getting out of the internal festering and longing and making something of who you are. Identity is fluid and its expression is constantly in refinement. If the identity and expression matches the bones and blood, it's honest, authentic.... innocent?

But, 4s may also feel that if innocence is GOODNESS, they lack the capacity for goodness, or lost it at some point. If they are to be honest, they also possess selfishness and darkness too. So in that sense, I don't know if there is a blanket view of innocence that applies to all 4s.


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## Animal

I'm not sure I can articulate why, but Annie Lennox reminds me of a 3..












There's so much image stuff and "you don't know how I feel" (subtext: beneath the perfect image)

When I watched the interview I thought it sounded 4ish enough, but now going through her music..

I don't see the vulnerability in her eyes that I see in some 4s..



















I see hints of it, but it's "underneath" something..




















Much more similar vibe to Sting, who is a self-proclaimed 3w4..














Annie Lennox feels like a 3 to me..


----------



## Animal

Most people would think of Marilyn Manson as "hard" and unreachable, but even he has the sadness & fullness of emotion, the wide open vulnerability in his eyes that he can't hide under all the makeup..


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## Animal

Siouxsie has it too..































I haven't looked into this quite enough to make a strong case yet, but I want to propose a discussion about Siouxie - I think she's a 4- 8 - cp6 tritype. I'm not really seeing the 7 yet. Maybe I have to look harder. I agree with Sx/So.


----------



## Animal

For Alanis Morisette, I would also consider a 6 typing.

Even the song "Perfect" which I could see how a 4 would relate to - - - she is singing about the expectations of others. 6's tend to have this dual relationship with expectations - they resent them. What some people would call "Paranoia" - I would not call 6's "paranoid" per se. But they can have that flavor becuase the reaction from a 6 will be a skeptical "what do you want from me?" .. there's a reactivity against the expectations. This is part of why 6's "test" (when they're unhealthy perhaps, and also when the stakes are high.. meaning, I haven't been "tested" as much by six friends, but romantic interests, yes) ... they are testing to see if you're going to try to pigeonhole them, force them into a box, make them conform... just as much as they're testing to see if you're secure and stable. If you don't accept a six as she is, then she can't trust in that stability, she can't have faith in that relationship. Because eventually the truth will come out.

Sixes have the line to 3 for disintegration... "Well if I can't meet their expectations I will just pretend and play that role to maintain my stability and security" - but they resent it. Like so:







The more I listen to it, I think Alanis' song "Perfect" is about this. It's (a 6??) weighing the expectations vs. the truth of who she is.

Then you have songs like "Isn't it ironic" - sounds like 6 cynicism.

You have songs like "Uninvited"

"Must be strangely exciting to watch the stoic squirm" 
I've made plenty of stoical sixes squirm because of the intensity of my emotions toward them. Or just my emotions in general. The reaction often elicits a command from a love interest along the lines of "Stop emoting!" ... this line is just SOOOO 6ish, in my experience of sixes anyway.
This whole song is "Stop placing your expectations on me."

6's are the attachment/reactive type. All of the reactive types want to "be accepted as they are" and feel like they don't fit the mold, but 6s are attachment types. So there is always a push/pull between the expectations of others (this is attachment, meaning, that these things AFFECT them and actually register) vs. the way they really are. 4s withdraw from this reality which rejects them as they are, to create their own universe and 8s push against this reality to reshape it to their liking & control it, to right the wrongs & seek justice. 8s will often feel "it's too late for me but I can protect someone else's innocence and genuineness." 4s will feel "I don't fit in here but I can go to my home planet.. if only someone will rescue me from this place..."

Alanis.. I don't know. Right now I'm looking at 6.
( @_Arya_ mentioned it as a suggestion, so I won't take credit, but I am now seeing it and unable to see it another way for the time being...)
@_Arya_ showed me this song


* *





"Hand In My Pocket"


I'm broke but I'm happy
I'm poor but I'm kind
I'm short but I'm healthy, yeah
I'm high but I'm grounded
I'm sane but I'm overwhelmed
I'm lost but I'm hopeful baby
What it all comes down to
Is that everything's gonna be fine fine fine
'cause I've got one hand in my pocket
And the other one is giving a high five
I feel drunk but I'm sober
I'm young and I'm underpaid
I'm tired but I'm working, yeah
I care but I'm restless
I'm here but I'm really gone
I'm wrong and I'm sorry baby


What it all comes down to
Is that everything's gonna be quite alright
'cause I've got one hand in my pocket
And the other one is flicking a cigarette
And what it all comes down to
Is that I haven't got it all figured out just yet
'cause I've got one hand in my pocket
And the other one is giving the peace sign
I'm free but I'm focused
I'm green but I'm wise
I'm hard but I'm friendly baby
I'm sad but I'm laughing
I'm brave but I'm chickenshit
I'm sick but I'm pretty baby


And what it all boils down to
Is that no one's really got it figured out just yet
'cause I've got one hand in my pocket
And the other one is playing the piano
And what it all comes down to my friends
Is that everything's just fine fine fine
'cause I've got one hand in my pocket
And the other one is hailing a taxi cab


[Harmonica solo]




The lyrics are full of contradictions. That is the essence of six..



So far, in terms of women, I agree that Siouxie and Sarah McLachlin are 4s, and I kind of like that because they are so deliciously different from each other, which gives me something to ponder. I will add more thoughts about those two if I have them.


Annie feels to me like a 3, though I could be convinced. Alanis feels like a 6, though I could be convinced. This is where I stand now but I have only thought this through now for a few days. As for Emilie Autumn, I am convinced beyond repair that she's a 7w6.


Where fixes on the 4s are concerned:

- Sarah feels like a 4w3, and 469 or 479 (will comment further ) - And I agree with Sp/So
- Siouxie feels like a 4w3, 486 (cp6) - And I agree with Sx/So
- If Alanis is a 4, it's 4w5, but I'm not feeling it
- If Annie is a 4, it's 4w3 with a very very very heavy 3 wing. But I think its 3w4.


----------



## Animal

This one could be a 4 mayhap


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## 0+n*1

Another artist (female singer) that I thought was 4 and then 6 and then who knows (because I started to question my understanding on 6 and I thought I was giving the type too much credit, transforming it into some kind of universal, fit-all type). Seems 146. I relate a bit to the lyrical content of their songs (it was the first time it truly happens, after all the love shit in the radio). Beth Gibbons from the band Portishead.









* *












* *












* *


----------



## Roshan

Great stuff and lots of food for thought. This one is a 4 for sure though, and a very important one to study.

To begin with, here she is all soft and dewy-eyed with her 4-6-9 sensitive artist stacking and the famous hats and outfits that made her a fashion icon in the '70s. Especially her hats were emulated. Like many 4s, she had a particular way of turning her persona into an aesthetic canvas.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ste...=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#tbm=isch&q=stevie+nicks+fashion+


----------



## Roshan

But this interview shows what she was (and still is) actually like. She has the sp/sx stacking. In still photos the watery softness of the main type (and the tritype actually) predominate, and also when she sings melancholic songs. But once you see her in motion in real life and speaking you begin to realize the stacking is at odds with all that. Notice the absolute boundary between herself and the interviewer (and the world); a removedness that has a hardness. Notice the obsessional preoccupation with sp concerns and the seething resentment toward Lindsay Buckingham (her ex-partner in both senses of the word in Fleetwood Mac) that still burns years later over things like what she had to cook. Notice also the social blind spot--how she's just oblivious to the fact that this is kind of inappropriate for an interview. She's about intensity of engulfing one-on-one relationships (sx--no boundaries) seething through an absolutely boundaried sp wall. (I've called this "autistic-ish" in relation to Lana del Rey and others of this stacking).

Notice how relatively limited her emotional affect is compared to what you'd probably expect. Also there's a certain sp thickness to the voice. A toughness. It almost feels at times like 8. 






But it gets even better.


----------



## Roshan

Here being interviewed with Lindsay a few years earlier, you can see just how ghoulish this stacking really can get. She's so social last, she'd much prefer for him to be the one interviewed and she watches the interview like it's carrion. And with a marked lack of overt shame for a 4. There's a reason at eidb this stacking has been called "the vault". But it's a vault whose contents are smoldering and they can and do blow up. It's also been called "The Gravedigger" and "Hell". I agree.

sp/sx is the most embodied stacking; it's also the most pathologically social last--far more so than sx/sp (where the sx first, because it's about connectedness, pinch hits for the social instinct in various ways). It's so at odds with the disembodied fragility of 4 melancholy and yet there's absolutely nothing she could possibly be but a 4.

_Or anyway I don't *think* there is...but there have been so many surprises lately..._


----------



## Animal

Roshan said:


> Notice also the social blind spot--how she's just oblivious to the fact that this is kind of inappropriate for an interview.


Hahahhahaa this cracked me up. I'm painfully social-last and when I was playing shows, people in the audience would tell me afterwards "You were so good!" and I would start pointing out all the things about the show that went wrong or that sucked. My mother and my friend who was acting as my manager, used to tell me "STOP DOING THAT" - but I don't know what else to do.. should I lie? My sp-1 mother says "Just smile and say thank you." 

I was effective in running the band, I was industrious in the rehearsal or studio setting and took charge as band leader - where my visions are concerned I take control. It's like I'm a vessel through which my vision is enacted. But when it came to saying the right thing to people, this could not be learned. I just couldn't get it right and even being told to make the effort was infuriating. I also get "too personal" in interviews and in between songs on stage when talking to the audience.


----------



## Roshan

Animal said:


> I haven't looked into this quite enough to make a strong case yet, but I want to propose a discussion about Siouxie - I think she's a 4- 8 - cp6 tritype. I'm not really seeing the 7 yet. Maybe I have to look harder. I agree with Sx/So.


I have been thinking about it myself. I think she and my late friend Valerie and Nina Hagen (on the Lana del Rey thread) may be the same tritype and stacking in different orders. The 4-6-8 triple reactive sx/soc, with Siouxsie 4 leading, Nina 6, and Valerie 8, and all of them severely cph on the 6. Wagnerian ladies.

https://www.google.com/search?q=sio...YQ_AUoAQ#tbm=isch&q=siouxsie+sioux+nina+hagen


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## 0+n*1

Roshan said:


> https://www.google.com/search?q=sio...YQ_AUoAQ#tbm=isch&q=siouxsie+sioux+nina+hagen


I love Nina and how irreverent she is. She reminds of one friend that I thought was a 6 (I was open to the 7 possibility too).


----------



## tresemme

I don't think Siouxsie is a 4. I used to, but can't see it anymore. She seems like she could be XNTJ, maybe INTJ on the mbti.


----------



## Roshan

4 is itself so sx and just snooping around about her while looking for heady, beady-eyed 4s, I think Sylvia Plath was actually probably sx last. I'm thinking maybe 4w5-5/6 line-1w9 soc/sp. The difference between the work, the person, and the popularly held image of the work-as-person can be vast. 

Soc/sp speaking from the mountain also goes against the wateriness of the core type, but like Stevie Nicks with sp/sx, the core type transmits more readily in the creative work. 






"Ariel", about being thrown off a horse, somehow crystallizes movement 4>1>7. (Self-consciousness in turbulent Dyonisian flux of the tragic fact of one's mortality, captured and transcended with Appolian technical rigor in the moment of exuberant dissipation).






Unfortunately there don't seem to be any on-camera interviews of Sylvia.

The more "non-4ish" stackings are the sx lasts (soc/sp and sp/so) and often sp/sx due to the sp first. The more 4ish stackings are sx/sp and soc/sx. Sx/soc creates a very 4ish 4, but also very larger than life, very non-withdrawn. And it will do it pretty much every time....

Sx/sp is the most 4ish. Annie Lennox is pretty clearly sx/sp stacking, so....


----------



## Roshan

Wouldn't it be funny if Sylvia Plath weren't a 4? lol Let's ask her....

I think it's best to assume the range of 4s has to be quite wide.

So Sarah McLachlan sp/soc
Siouxsie Sioux sx/soc
Stevie Nicks sp/sx

All on the 3 wing.

These seem clear to me. I'd love someone who doesn't think Siouxsie is a 4 (or any of these people or others) to actually say what else she could possibly be and why. MBTI doesn't detract from being any partciular E-type though of course some are much more common combinations and some are quite rare; it's most directly related to stacking.


----------



## Roshan

Antony Hegarty is like the paradigmatic soc/sx 4 imo. I've studied him quite a bit and am pretty confident of his full tritype and stacking. Which is 4w5-9w8-6w7 soc/sx. 











Actually he came to music through underground theater. He's a "trooper". And he really was discovered by Lou Reed and other established performers who got behind him or he would probably still be very obscure. He is very aware of this and everything he does is somehow imbued with a social value in mind. He puts himself out there with the most extremely fragile and masochistic emotions as an assertion of true transgenderism. He's fueled, among other things, to make a social statement that we should be beyond male/female concepts of gender, and feels that will help save the species and planet. He's into a lot of Gaia stuff (very 9ish Cosmic Union).

soc/sx 4 leaks personal shame, and yes, it is often the "sad sack" 4, and yet it can be fueled by things that are transpersonal in odd and surprisingly, not immediately apparently social but still social ways.


----------



## Roshan

justforthespark said:


> So (to use Regina as an example because her work - of all these artists - is most familiar to me) would a song like "Rockland County" be a good example of a 4 or 4-fix embodying the image of innocence? I'm fascinated by the way she juxtaposes a childlike-voice with the harsh, almost angry "I just know they got something coming if they got anything coming at all." Or is this not exactly what you were referring to?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I remember correctly, Regina has also talked about how most of her songs are not auto-biographical, even if they're in first person. This is the only song of hers I can think of that DEFINITELY comes from personal experience. She talks about leaving Russia and coming to America a lot in interviews. She doesn't otherwise speak of her personal life at all.


I don't know if I'd get as specific as @_Animal_ about what 4 would or wouldn't produce but this to me is a very 9ish "Everyman" triangle song. Attachment triad. Someone whose romance is fundamentally with the world as it is.

I am pretty sure by now that what is going on with Regina is that she is an sx first 9w1 and specifically sx/soc 9w1-4w3-6/7 line (I say 6/7 line as a concession to others who say 7w6 because she seems 6w7-fixed to me but I'm becoming aware I have problems with that distinction so... ).

What I'm pretty sure is happening is that she is an example of sx 9 UNION in the extraverted (social) way, rather than the intensive sx/sp 9. And that is why she is "leaking heart" as in* leaking it all over the place*. Sx/soc is very in-your-face but it can get somewhat muted with 9, since 9 is so about not having an individual identity in some sense...

not so 4. I think sx/soc 4s would be more likely to be in-your-face than sx/soc 9s. Again, Regina is a case of confusing sx-firstness with 4ness.

I think.


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## Roshan

I know this woman and she is definitely an sx/soc 4w3 (6w7 and 9w1 fixes). She happens to have a fantastic voice but is sadly in need of a good sound engineer--what she does with her voice is particularly prone to coming off shrill without the best recording instruments.

Anyway so this is what an sx/soc 4w3 is like, loosely speaking and I think Regina is an sx/soc 9w1 (in some ways almost the opposite). If not that, then soc/sx 9w1 with very strong sx. I think soc/sx 4 is a much lesser possibility or even some kind of phobic Sixishness--but nah, really Regina seems like a 9.

Actually come to think of it both of these women come from the same scene and know each other. I Know a lot of people who know Regina but I don't and I've never seen her perform live either.


----------



## Roshan

Of course there isn't some kind of magical line in the sand you draw and suddenly this stacking is now that and this makes this main type absolutely this or that way. There are all kinds of combinations. I don't think there's even one line you draw where suddenly one type becomes the other. Things exist more on a spectrum. But there is some kind of center of what sp/sx is like as opposed to sx/sp or sp/soc. Some kind of center of what a 5, say, is like as opposed to a 4. Then things become variegated. This is a Kurt Cobain interview that speaks strongly for 5w4. I am on the fence, and _he might have been, too_.






Avarice in the head arena seems to loom large.


----------



## Roshan

The irony is that when you (meaning when I) try to look carefully at all the variables and actually do the research and speculate about it, people will come along and say I'm pigeon-holing. Those would be the people presumably who would rather say "5 is like this" and "3 is like this" and that's the way it is and all 8 billion people on the planet can somehow fundamentally ultimately be viewed this or that way. To me that just creates very big pigeon holes and is the reductionist approach. I just don't buy it.

Like Moses came down the mountain and there weren't 10 commandments, there were 9. Thou shalt be 2, thou shalt be 7....

nah.


----------



## tresemme

sittapygmaea said:


> Wow; this thread is very impressive. You two have a wealth of knowledge and interest and apply it with diligence.
> 
> I'm wondering if you take requests?! Florence and the machine particularly speaks to me, and I identify Florence Welch as a 4w5 like myself. I know this is seductively tempting (to see oneself in a favored artist) so I am curious to get a more objective opinion. Here are my two favorite songs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the first interview I came across:


7w6. If she's a 4, then a 4w3. I find 4w5s to be bleak.


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## Roshan

Oh, she is a tough one. She changes a lot from interview to interview. (I've now watched a few) and also from song to song. She has a very broad palette (including a taste for cheesy pop influences that's not unknown but also not usual with 4s). 6/7 line--preference to the 7 side-- is the common "anti-Four" typing (Riso Hudson say 4 but so do they with Tori and Kate Bush...and Amy Winehouse...and...Angelina Jolie...and...). It's very tempting at first to just jump on the "non-Four" bandwagon, as most people did on this thread. Florence definitely has a "head buzz" in many interviews and can be quite upbeat:

The Enneagram Institute Discussion Board - Florence Welch

but Sunny held her ground with some good points for 4, not least among them this:






Being a 9, Sunny's position on how much import "should" be given to RH typings in general is unclear (she's also the one who typed Cobain as a 9, so...), but that's beside the point. Next to a clear assertive/compliant mix like Katy Perry (full of 6 and 7 and 3), Florence obviously has something beyond "just" 7ish frustration--she has a strong withdrawn component.

Before seeing the one above I wanted to say either 4w3 or 7w6 but actually 4w5 isn't impossible. Suggestions like sx/soc 7 seem really extreme in the light of things like this. If sx first, then more likely sx/sp.

In the one below she has some of that "porcelain and water" quality I associate with 4 a la Siouxsie. Although of course in her own way:






That seems very Four. She is so eclectic, but she does seem to transmit something that is essentially from the bottom of the E a lot of the time for all the various hooplas and I do see a fundamental existential "problem" under the masks--when she wears one.

https://www.google.com/search?q=flo...a=X&ei=KCJQVLiAIoLIsATWlYCIBA&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

The more I look, the more I see it. I don't see a compliant and I don't see a glutton. I will go tentatively with 4w3-7w6-9w1 soc/sx or sx/sp...she was also very influenced in her style by Stevie Nicks and has some of that "perfection" in her clothing that is Fourish to me. It goes beyond style--and beyond "strength and/or beauty". A delicate kind of art...

Don't know what's up with that leggy one, though...

Thoughts?


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## Roshan

http://cdn03.cdn.justjared.com/wp-c...-covered-in-butterflies-for-met-ball-2014.jpg


I do remember and hold on advisement that what I'm not understanding is that sx 7 is the truly dreamy one...not 9, not 4...Tori's interviews to me seem by now clearly sx 7w6, but that's not what I'm getting from Florence. And Kate Bush was yet another kettle of fish...I get all of them in the 4-7-9 tritype but 7 leading for Tori, 4 for Florence (but I'm open), and Kate...still feels like a 9w1.

There are perhaps ways to argue against that 9w1 typing for Kate that could change my mind, but that she was too original and bold for a 9 isn't one of them.


----------



## Roshan

This woman is _placid.

_




Unfailingly. In every interview I've seen.






She's a core gut type. Pure, unadulterated unpresent presence. A Cosmic Mirror. 

Healthy 9w1. _The Grounded Ethereal._


----------



## sittapygmaea

Thank you guys, for your thoughts, especially @Roshan. I haven’t poked around the enneagram institute discussion board, but I shall shortly. 

The discussion is fascinating. I’ve based most of my typing on her lyrics and haven’t watched as many interviews with her, but in the ones I’ve seen she seems very anxious, uncomfortable, socially awkward. She seems to me to toggle between performing, and a kind of awkward earnestness. In my experience, the loopy, giggly persona is not an uncommon way for 4w5 females to deal with their social discomfort. 

I could consider types other than 4, but don’t at all agree with 7w6, because if you listen to her lyrics, she is fairly unrelentingly bleak (as I read them, which is hardly the last word). I do agree with @tresemme that 4w5s tend to be bleak, though I don’t think that they will generally come across this way if you meet them at a dinner party (or an talk show). They may learn early to be careful about when and to whom such thoughts are expressed. Florence definitely does not present a heavy, melancholy vibe in her interviews, but she seems to me well-removed, in her head, carefully filtering what she will let out. 

I also think her lyrics are very bleak. In the most schematic rendering, the majority of the songs can be characterized in the following way: 'something bad happened earlier, and more bad things will happen in the future. You may think you can get away, but you can’t. Even the things that bring you up will take you down (though going down can be its own success).' Even songs that seem like fairly upbeat, romantic larks, like cosmic love and drumming song, are quite dark. I read them both as focussing on how love, even when requited, is a kind of terrible, self-annihilating state. So you can’t win without losing or lose without winning. 

Her lyrics often have a kind of cerebral, allusive quality that says 4w5 to me. There is also an unusual amount of ambivalence. But, again, I am aware of my inclination to read certain of these things onto her. “What the water gave me” is the strongest case, though. It is a bleak abyss of a song, perfectly balanced between overflowing emotion and stony stoicism.


----------



## Roshan

Animal said:


> I have always loved this song. I feel like 4s have a lot of resentment about the idea that they're expected to be perfect. Type 1s want to be perfect, 4s realize they can't be perfect but at least they can be unique. If you can't be the best/ better than others, be different..be something that nobody else could possibly compare to. If you're an alien you can't be compared unfavorably to humans... you're off the scale.
> 
> That's why 4s integrate to 1.. it's an acceptance of what it's like to be human. It's finding that you are enough, that you're perfect just the way you are, without having to be different or alien. It's about being comfortable with humanity and what unites you with everyone else (holy origin) ... accepting that we all come from the same mold and you are enough anyway. That's why integration is so hard... I know this intellectually, but I rarely feel it, feel that I can be like others, and human, JUST human, without having to be a "symbol of myself" .. and still be enough, still be me, still be significant... still exist.


Reading down from the start of the thread and just to comment that another reason Four integration is to One is because of the getting out of the subjective feeling self and observing the world objectively. Even when necessary taking the measurements of reality. The trajectory is from turbulence to order. 

Then at 7 it all lightens up a bit, then...


----------



## Roshan

@_sittapygmaea_ ,

Interesting comments on Florence. More to come. Do you have an opinion on Alanis' type? (The discussion on her starts pretty early on in the thread and weaves in and out... ).


----------



## Animal

Roshan said:


> Oh, she is a tough one.


That's for sure.



> Thoughts?


She hardly shows any expression on her face even when talking about emotions. She talks about studying her emotions and conveying her feelings, and then gets lost on a tangeant about connections with books and things she has studied, symbols.

It could be 4. Easily.
It doesn't look like 7.

But according to subtype descriptions in textbooks, most 5s don't show expressions on their face. But sexual 5s have a lot of emotions and the will to communicate them. Chopin was a SX 5.



> Sexual/social
> 
> This subtype is the most dramatic of the instinctual stackings of type Five. They are less concerned than the social/sexual subtype with social rejection, but take rejection from intimates very much to heart. They have a strong desire to express themselves, and can be the most Four-like of all the instinctual subtypes of type Five.
> 
> Not only do they have a strong desire to merge with a significant other, they also want to make their mark in the larger social sphere. The intensity, aggression, counterphobic stance and desire to connect deeply, all combine with the social instinct to produce a highly charged personality. This subtype can become quite accomplished if they are able to form an intimate connection with someone who will help ground them and provide them with a feeling of security. When Fives of this subtype feel a sense of safety due to healthy intimate relationships, they will want to share whatever knowledge, talent or insight they may have.
> 
> When unhealthy, this subtype can be very dark, pessimistic and the most confrontational of all the subtypes of Five. They can also become very arrogant.





> Sexual: Confidence (passion to confide). Looks for the ultimate in another person. A little more assertive
> and with more feeling than other Fives. Chopin was verbally curtailed and prone to feeling oppressed by
> social gatherings and by the only relationship with a woman in his life. He almost couldn't "take" any
> relationship, but there was an outpouring in his music. Someone who puts own self into animals, into
> activity (e.g., Najinsky). (Tells story of female Five in a workshop who wanted him to work with her but
> Naranjo was exhausted; she said "Maybe one of these nights we could go for a walk in the moonlight,"
> like an excess of confidence in a specific person: "This person has to be somebody who cares so much
> for me that I become the one and I'm confident in that relationship.")




I'm not typing her as a 5. It's just something that popped into my head watching this interview. So far I've only listened to a couple of the tracks posted here.

I'm not seeing core 7.
Not sure I'm seeing 7 at all.


If she is a 4, she can't be SX first. Sx 4s are boiling over with expression, even in interviews..there's an intensity, much more vampiric. She is too bland on her face to be an SX 4. At least in this interview.


----------



## Animal

Roshan said:


> Reading down from the start of the thread and just to comment that another reason Four integration is to One is because of the getting out of the subjective feeling self and observing the world objectively. Even when necessary taking the measurements of reality. The trajectory is from turbulence to order.
> 
> Then at 7 it all lightens up a bit, then...


It's also a feeling of a sense of purpose. Not just identity but purpose. Getting what's inside your own head and heart out into the world. The process of producing art and making a project out of it, or pursuing a goal, is a form of "order," but it would not necessarily mean pairing down the feelings, it just means channeling them. I don't think a 4 would feel "true to herself" and happy and integrated with something as simple as "order" if it meant losing the fire and the passion. Rather, that fire gets channeled.


* *





I worded this decently in a PM I sent the other day:


> The GOOD side of the line to 1 is that I take major charge of my projects and start having a stronger sense that I am capable of acting on my sense of purpose. It guides my actions and there's a fire burning inside me. I can even experience it as rage or lust, which is part of why I mistyped at 8. There's this feeling of, this is what I'm here to do, and nothing short of my death will stop me. Like that Gandhi quote.. "To say it and not to live it is dishonest." Everything becomes an expression of that integrity. Being true to myself is not only knowing my feelings, and feeling my feelings and facing them, but also, expressing them, making them into something physical. Acting on them.








One reason 4s are so often attracted to art (even if they aren't artists first and foremost) - it is a means to make the inner turbulence physical, to turn it into a mirror, thus making their feelings objective instead of subjective... because they can view them from the outside.... and so can someone else. Other people can look into their mirror and see themselves in it, too. This helps the 4 to feel less isolated, because there was something real inside the 4, mirrored in their art.. and then other people saw themselves in it. This helps the 4 to feel that sense of "holy origin" - being part of the same energy as everyone else. The need to be "unique" dissolves then into a feeling that their unique feelings is a symbol for something experienced by others. Still, it is paired with the feeling of being unique because it was their unique expression that provided a mirror for others to look into and see it in their own unique way.

An integration to a gut type 8 or 1, for types 5 and 4 - - is about action. Making something concrete out of the feelings (4) or thoughts (5). The inner turbulence gets shaped and shared. 5s fear being useless (my brain doesn't actually DO anything!!) and 4s fear is being insignificant (my feelings don't actually MEAN anything!!!) .. the integration to the gut type gets these inner states into physical forms, mirrors for the image type and useful expertise for the head type.


I think he explained it decently at the beginning here. The description of disintegration was mildly over the top, but not altogether innacurate.






This one is really interesting but longer:


----------



## Roshan

@_Animal_ ,

Where are those descriptors about 5 from?

Also, 5 had crossed my mind but then I thought "nah"...but will revisit it.

Right, sx 4 is vampiric. Rowland Howard comes to mind. Also Annie Lennox's vampirisms, 'cuz I do think Annie...but whatever. Etc.


----------



## Animal

Roshan said:


> @_Animal_ ,
> 
> Where are those descriptors about 5 from?
> 
> Also, 5 had crossed my mind but then I thought "nah"...but will revisit it.


Descriptions of 5:

http://personalitycafe.com/type-5-forum-investigator/9160-type-five-variant-stackings.html

http://www.breakoutofthebox.com/NaranjoSubtypes.pdf

I don't put TOO much stock in descriptions - I look for energy that I have seen in actual people. I used to type at sx 5w4 for a long time but I think the thing that put me over the edge is how damn expressive I am when I speak. My emotions are spilling out of my ears even when I am hardly moving. I know an sx 5w4 very well who is definitely correctly typed.. on this forum.. so I know what their expressions can be like. By comparison I'd say his eyes are actually _more_ lively than hers, but his body language is more still. Some of this is also dependent on JCF functions.. which can easily be visually typed. He is an INTJ.. .she probably isn't. You may recall I said that Bat for Lashes / Natasha Kahn moves just like I do.. it appears we are both ENFP's. (My friend is an excellent visual typer with functions, so I asked him to type her for kicks.) 

INTJ's have this kind of lost Ni stare, but their body can be still while their eyes stare ahead. She doesn't have that, but she still looks like she could be a 5, because of the expressionlessness.

At least in this video.

My other 5w6 ISTJ friend moves around more than she does, and also laughs alot. He's kind of 7ish. That's what's missing from a 5 typing for her. Every 5 I know is kind of silly and 7ish.

I need to see more interviews.



> Right, sx 4 is vampiric. Rowland Howard comes to mind. Also Annie Lennox's vampirisms, 'cuz I do think Annie...etc.


Yeah I'm going to get back to Annie. I was clearing my head from that one for a few days because sometimes I get stuck on a perception  I will go back to it though. She could VERY easily be a Sx 4w3.


----------



## Animal

Roshan said:


>


OMG. This is very 5ish!!!! 0:47
"People trying to think about me as a person rather than a musician, that's what I'm scared of"

5 compartmentalization. They want their mind to be useful but they have the avarice..where it comes to their "person." Like they want to keep that anonymous and put their skills to _use_. The usefulness is the niche and the niche is for the world. The _self _is for themselves.


I don't know.. not enough evidence..but just a clue...

Notice how Katy Perry had a totally different reaction.


2:20 "Why haven't I heard this song it's so important!" -- FreAkout

Freakout because she missed out on important information? 5s never feel prepared, that they know enough...



Also she said she prefers being in the studio to playing live.

..... !


I see more of the line to 7 in this video. 5's love talking about their areas of expertise. They light up like so.

She still could be a 4 though.
Just.. I haven't been pointed completely away from 5 thus far.


----------



## Animal

sittapygmaea said:


>


"You've got a lot of odd shapes in your life" 

Exactly. That's what I was thinking. She has this whole inner world of shapes and math. "Florence AND THE MACHINE." Makes perfect sense with her mindset. It's like life is a machine and she's the translator from the machine to the humans?

But she kind of moves like one of her parents had robot heritage.

The 5w6 ISTJ I am close with often describes his travels and experiences with detail just like this. And he gets very excited about it too.

Her description of how she writes songs- by going out, getting drunk and collecting regrets to write about while she's hung over, and the hangover PUTTING HER INTO THAT EMOTIONAL STATE..... did not feel very 4ish to me. With 4s the emotions have layers upon layers of meaning. It's again, the same complaint I had about typing Natasha at 4.. she could no longer be a 4 in my mind the moment I heard her say "I'm not always this dark, but my songs are this dark.." ..... it's kind of the same thing, like "I use the hangover to pull out these emotions, and then I continue robotting my way through some exciting shapes!" ...uh huh

So far, my 5 bell is ringing ^_^


----------



## Roshan

Very interesting...and again:

https://www.google.com/search?q=flo...=7ZNQVIWUA-3LsATTloHQBQ&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

http://cdn.3news.co.nz/3news/AM/2012/7/12/261071/FlorenceWelch_AAP_1200.jpg


----------



## Animal

Roshan said:


> Very interesting...and again:
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=flo...=7ZNQVIWUA-3LsATTloHQBQ&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ
> 
> http://cdn.3news.co.nz/3news/AM/2012/7/12/261071/FlorenceWelch_AAP_1200.jpg



Here is our 5w4 

https://www.google.com/search?q=flo...&q=trent reznor 90s&revid=1467298354&imgdii=_


----------



## Animal




----------



## Roshan

Riiiight...I was wondering about that "and the machine"....

So could be something like 5w4-4w3-9wX sx/soc?

Or maybe even 5w6????


----------



## Animal

Roshan said:


> Riiiight...I was wondering about that "and the machine"....
> 
> So could be something like 5w4-4w3-9wX sx/soc?
> 
> Or maybe even 5w6????


Actually I was thinking the same - 5w6 - with 4 and 9 fixes. I agree with that yes. And Sx/So. The thing is, Sx/So makes ZERO sense for her as a 4, but it feels right with her songs. A 4w3 fix second, makes sense. 9w8??? I would say offhandedly, but I'd have to think about it more. My gut says 9w8 because she is likable, laughing, she seems somewhat more grounded than a 5 with a 9w1 fix. She is one of VERY few people I've seen who strikes me as a triple-withdrawn. In that first video I commented on she really looked withdrawn in the colloquial sense. But triple-withdrawns can be fun and "out there" too.. its just.. her style of communication... it's enneagram ego/ego/ego. There's no id or super-ego (beyond the outer influences). Like..there is layer upon layer of her own world and language, but not in the same "mirrory" way of a core 4. She is the type of person who needs a translator. Her lyrics feel obscure at a glance, and her process is also other - planetary. Even Trent Reznor, who is a 5w4-4 fix with probably a 1 fix? Feels more grounded, like there's at least one fix that is in the earth. She has 3 fixes of inward-inward-inward... no translator. That's why she was talking about trying to translate her feelings... in that "withdrawn" video.


5w4s are more inward-lurking and "hungry demon"ish like Trent. She seems more silly and information-gathering. The 6 wing makes her more.. outward-seeking for answers. 5w6 wants to know "What is the world?" and 5w4 wants to know "WHat am I?" (Not "_who_ am I.") She reminds me so much of my 5w6 friend. He will be excited if I tell him.


----------



## Roshan

Patti 5w4-4w3-8w7 sx/soc. Pretty certain of that.


----------



## Animal

Roshan said:


> View attachment 219634
> 
> View attachment 219626


I forgot - have we typed Patti Smith? I'm not familiar with her work at all.


----------



## Flaming Bassoon

As a 7 that's mistyped as a 4, this is fascinating. I must also reiterate that many people who mistype as 4s are either NFs and/or have 4 in their tritypes: I'm both.


----------



## tresemme

sittapygmaea said:


> I also think her lyrics are very bleak. In the most schematic rendering, the majority of the songs can be characterized in the following way: 'something bad happened earlier, and more bad things will happen in the future. You may think you can get away, but you can’t. Even the things that bring you up will take you down (though going down can be its own success).' Even songs that seem like fairly upbeat, romantic larks, like cosmic love and drumming song, are quite dark. I read them both as focussing on how love, even when requited, is a kind of terrible, self-annihilating state. So you can’t win without losing or lose without winning.
> 
> Her lyrics often have a kind of cerebral, allusive quality that says 4w5 to me. There is also an unusual amount of ambivalence. But, again, I am aware of my inclination to read certain of these things onto her. “What the water gave me” is the strongest case, though. It is a bleak abyss of a song, perfectly balanced between overflowing emotion and stony stoicism.


...and it's all sprinkled with glitter. She wax poetic and sad eyes, all the while striking a pose to go along with her prose.


----------



## Animal

Roshan said:


> It seems like pretty much every good typer, professional or otherwise, that I'm aware of, has typed Marilyn Manson as a 4. Mostly 4w5. I'd really like someone to explain to me why if he can be a 4, Florence can't be one too.


When typing someone, the first and last thing I look for is the vice and the virtue. The _spectrum _of vice/virtue should be spilling out of that person, in their lyrics if they are honest... but also in their interviews, the things they say offhandedly. Our core type is so pervasive that we don't even see it. It's not an impression you can "put on." It just _is_. It is someone's essence.

Reasons for Manson to be a 4:

_________________________________________
1. Envy/Equanimity.

Easy to see with Marilyn Manson.

e·qua·nim·i·ty
ˌekwəˈnimədē/
noun



mental calmness, composure, and evenness of temper, especially in a difficult situation.


This is that "cool" we were talking about with Manson's interviews. This is why many 4s have exquisite stage presence. The more challenging and potentially dangerous or embarrassing the situation, the better the 4 operates. I "feel" this kind of capacity for calm coming from Marilyn Manson. I can't picture him freaking out in a severe situation.


* *





I have seen this in real life examples. For one, I am exceptionally calm in a crisis, even though I can be intense and emotional too - and I have faced severe crises in my time ranging from assault (which I got out of, calmly) and being on my very likely death bed, to dealing with cops while tripping, fronting a band while extremely sick, being trapped in an elevator, being dumped by someone I was crazy about etc. I handle it calmly every time, even if I am miserable or traumatized later. I have never met a 4 who was any other way. I dated a 4 for a few years and he was a skinny guitarist, but he jumped right in the middle of a knife fight, unarmed, and coolly ended the incident. He used to do things like this all the time. It looked heroic to others, but it was second nature to him. Yet afterwards, he would sit at the bar crying and burning his arms with cigarettes. Another Sx 4w3 I knew well, was just like this - overly emotional, but came to the rescue when I was in trouble and swooped right in when everyone else was freaking out.




Envy is also easy to see.







The SPECTRUM of envy/equanimity is clear in songs like this. There's an acceptance of who he is. "It is what it is." 

_I was born into this, everything turns to shit. The boy that you loved is the man that you fear._

He knows that his flaws can be beautiful and his beauty can be flawed. He sees both sides of his traits. This is equanimity. Being at ease with the whole ugly truth. It just _is._








This acknowledgement of _what is_ comes partly from the line to 1 (integrity. For average-health 4s, the closest they can get to "goodness" is _honesty). _ 4 being between 5 (who seeks to know the objective truth as is, non-attachment to an outcome) and a type 3 (who seeks to shape their own image to acquire the outcome they want)... 4 is taking the objective truth of themselves as it is, and shaping it into a symbol of itself to show the world.

Marilyn Manson is the pinnacle of this mindset. 
_"When all of your wishes are granted, many of your dreams will be destroyed."_

That, right there, is the tension between type 3 dream-chasing and 5 objectivity.

________________________________________________
2. Based on his subject matter and presentation - he is CLEARLY an image type.

"We're all stars now." "See the nobodies, wanna be somebody..."











___________________________________
3. There is also the thing you said, @_Roshan_, about 4s being an internal hall of mirrors. Manson's shows have that quality, with deep seeded symbolism and symbols and aspects of self. 

This goes beyond his image - it's also in his lyrics. For instance this song clearly means something but it's his own language of symbols and self-assessment. It's hard to understand if you don't know his work well.








________________________________
With Florence I have yet to see envy/equanimity as a spectrum, or separately. I have yet to see a deep example of image focus. I have yet to see any evidence of "world of mirrors," though I need to watch more before I can comment. But the reason I type Manson at 4 has nothing to do with a scale of shyness vs. extroversion etc.

I still have to see any of this in the same way with Florence, but again, I haven't watched that many.


----------



## Animal

Additional comment: I am starting to roll with an So/Sp typing for Marilyn Manson. And also a 1 fix. Look at all his judgements of himself. He is so aware of his "evilness' that he sings about it constantly. 1's biggest fear is being morally corrupt or evil. The thing is.. all 4s have a line to 1 so there is an element of this. But I feel like he's pressing the point home much harder than some 4s. That would also explain his stiffness in interviews and his solid image-perfection.









For now, I have Marilyn Manson at:

4wX-7wX-1wX So/Sp INFP


----------



## sittapygmaea

I realized after the fact that I neglected to mention you as well, @Roshan, in my last post. I popped into this thread this morning to see what was afoot, and the two of you had put out these massive amounts of text already. I cannot keep up!!!! But that's OK with me; I enjoy watching you discuss and I'm not trying to crash your jam session, anyway. 

You have both been very generous with your time and insights, and it's fun for me to watch you work. So, thank you. 

Just to clarify something that perhaps was not as explicit as it should have been: I had crudely typed florence welch as a 4w5 because of identification, and reading certain things off of her song lyrics and preoccupations, but I was aware that this was a 'seeing as' based on relatively crude identification, intuition, and impressionistic reflections. I'm not particularly committed to it. 

I was/am simply curious to hear the reasons behind whoever types her as whatever type. I'm not so invested in the typing 'outcome.' It's more that its fun to get a different perspective. I want to see things that I haven't seen and notice things that I haven't noticed. 

I am _open_ to being convinced that she's a particular type, but that is not my primary interest in posing the question. And anyway, only certain kinds of observations are likely to 'convince' me of anything given where I'm coming from on the enneagram in general. 

I could generate a long, detailed list of reasons for thinking 4w5 (and perhaps _should_ be more specific), but this would misrepresent how I came to the conclusion. And anyway, my own view of the enneagram is not such that I think 'typing' takes to these kinds of persnickety, detailed evidence-based arguments. It all seems more impressionistic. Not that I take 'impressionistic' or 'intuitive' to signify a lesser stature or form of pseudo-knowledge, but I do see it as different from say, a scientific theorem or math proof both in terms of the kind of knowledge it is, and the sorts of considerations which are most relevant and persuasive. 


This is all by way of explanation of what was behind my initial question about how you would type her. 

And with that, I'm off to jog before the sun sets. Damn you, earth's axis! 



Roshan said:


> @_Animal_ , tbh I don't know very much about MBTI but I know enough to tell @_sittapygmaea_ that when you're dealing with two ENFP's, "must be" is at best a figure of speech.
> 
> Thanks to both and more later!


----------



## Animal

@_sittapygmaea_
It's not really about convincing anyone anyway, it's about thinking through it for myself. The exercise is helpful because the attempt to convince others forces me to put my thoughts and impressions into words, and their counter-impressions and arguments challenge me to really think more thoroughly about mine. But I agree with you that it's not about the result, it's about the process.

I'm currently watching some Florence videos, but I should get to writing my novel for the night. Music eats my soul all day long.. 

But I have to admit, five videos in, I have almost no clue where this woman is coming from in her songs. I'll get there. Sometimes it takes a bigger picture before I can see what someone is getting at. Thanks for the challenge. 


All I can say is, she definitely feels like a 459 tritype. I can't imagine some other tritype being this obscure by nature.


Her message.. her way of communicating. It's just..so.. obscure. My snap-judgement on such an obscure way of saying things would be "9" but I .. don't know. The 9 is in there somewhere.







This has a bit of a 9ish theme.. 9's, the "Lost childhood message" is _You matter_. 9s will often be frustrated that they feel like they don't matter, they don't exist. Here she says she is always left in shadow. "They've left me in the dark..." "I'm always in this twilight, in the shadow of your heart.."






At the end of the video she finds her heart amidst all these flashing lights... having been lost in the shadow. That is kind of 9ish too.


----------



## Animal

Damn this is interesting.

"I was looking for a breath of life, a little touch of heavenly life, but all the choirs in my head sang no." 
!!!!!!!! WHAT why?!!!! WHY! 







* *





"Breath Of Life"

Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh

*I was looking for a breath of a life
For a little touch of heavenly light
But all the choirs in my head sang no *oh oh oh

To get a dream of life again
A little vision of the start and the end
But all the choirs in my head sang, no oh oh oh

But I needed one more touch
Another taste of heavenly rush
And I believe, I believe it's so oh oh oh

[not in the music video]
And I needed one more touch
Another taste of divine rush
And I believe, I believe it's so oh oh oh

*Whose side am I on? Whose side am I?
Whose side am I on? Whose side am I?*

And the fever began to spread
From my heart down to my legs
But the room is so quiet, oh oh oh oh

And although I wasn't losing my mind
*It was a chorus so sublime
But the room is so quiet, oh oh oh*

I was looking for a breath of a life
A little touch of heavenly light
But all the choirs in my head sang, no oh oh oh

[not in the music video]
To get a dream of life again
*A little vision of the sun in the end*
But all the choirs in my head sang, no oh oh oh

Oh, oh, oh

It's a harder way and it's come to claim her
And I always say, we should be together
And I can see below, 'cause there's something in here
*And if you are gone, I will not belong here (belong, belong, belong)*

And I started to hear it again
But this time it wasn't the end
And the room is so quiet, oh oh oh oh

*And my heart is a hollow plain
For the devil to dance again*
And the room is too quiet, oh oh oh oh

I was looking for the breath of a life
A little touch of a heavenly light
But all the choirs in my head sang, no oh oh oh






There is longing for something that isn't there... but I feel like there's more.

@_Roshan_ is going to kill me for saying this, and I may be completely off base...


... but in this song.. I am sensing a tremendous fear of loss and separation... and anger.


What 4 views life as "a touch of heavenly light?"
It feels to me more like the "choir in her head" sang no.. because she is afraid of losing something. She is afraid to chase her dream because it's quiet and peaceful at home and she doesn't want to shatter her peace by being attached to something. "If you are gone, I will not belong here.."

I dont know..


----------



## Animal

_"I was disappearing in plain sight"_

_"You can't choose what stays and what fades away... and *I'd do anything* to make you stay."

"Tell me what you want me to say..."_

...compliance.. 9... would do or say or be _anything_ to make peace.. to avoid loss and separation...







"Say my name and every color it illuminates
We are shining and we will never be afraid again."

Doesn't this sound like 9 ---> 3? No longer being afraid to exist/ shine? To take up space? Wanting to be recognized?

It could also be spun as 5 ---> 8, taking action, no longer being held back by fear of not being prepared. 

But it has more of that "integrating to 3" - SHINING - flavor.

I don't see how it can be 4 --> 1. 4s are afraid of rejection, but this is a "coming out of your shell / integrating" song and with 4s that would be accepting that you are good, or you are enough...

It just feels very 9. Maybe 5. It's hard to see a melancholic, envious core 4 in this... I just can't see it. 4's souls are made of fire and brimstone. It's easier to see Alanis as a 4, which I am still contemplating. Or even Sarah McLachlan, who isn't as outwardly dark, but seems to have 4 issues. ( I will get back to this) ... this woman.. she is glamorous, she is expressive, but in her songs and interviews, I have yet to hear any 4 _issues_.... yet her 9 issues are running amuck in her lyrics so far.

She lays down at the end of this video as if to die. Like being someone, shining, existing, was exhausting.



Yet in her interviews she sounded very autonomous ... as @_Roshan_ mentioned. Very 4/5.

Well at least we seem to have her tritype.


----------



## Animal

Flaming Bassoon said:


> As a 7 that's mistyped as a 4, this is fascinating. I must also reiterate that many people who mistype as 4s are either NFs and/or have 4 in their tritypes: I'm both.


I hear you. I'm both as well. I'm an ENFP, and that Ne and Sx makes me look 7ish. I also have a 7w8 SX father as a cheer-leader.  

I am currently typed at 478 tritype, Sx/Sp. I have lately been considering a 1 fix and Sx/So. My typing journey was long and complicated. I also am a trauma survivor and have additional reasons for being confused. 

What pushed you over the edge and made you choose 7?


----------



## Roshan

Flaming Bassoon said:


> As a 7 that's mistyped as a 4, this is fascinating. I must also reiterate that many people who mistype as 4s are either NFs and/or have 4 in their tritypes: I'm both.


And also sx first, or "strong sx", as you identify yourself in your tag--the second especially in many women. I'm familiar with those stacking categories--they originally come from the stacking "ranges" from Typewatch. Sp/sx decadent NF with strong movement in core dynamics )between 4 and 8) is how I would characterize Miss Lizzy Grant, the temporarily gone but at least by me never forgotten _Two _who was the impetus for this thread. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=liz...a=X&ei=i1lSVNL3BvPfsAT8xIL4CQ&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

Notice how the seductive sp/sx decadent "stone veil" manifests on a Two (with 6w7 and 9wX fixes) as opposed to an aggressive 8 like Nina Simone or a withdrawn 4 like Stevie Nicks. It's a "come hither and find me" as opposed to a "stay away unless I say otherwise". (Stevie in performances is more "come hither and find me" as well, but in interviews she's something very different).

Another reason people, especially women, mistype as Fours is simply because of depression, btw...


----------



## Roshan

http://img.scoop.it/B4KvlHsLxim5KV5pOWo26zl72eJkfbmt4t8yenImKBVvK0kTmF0xjctABnaLJIm9

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/025/1/6/lizzy_grant__lana_del_rey__by_nesttles-d5sph11.jpg

https://plus.google.com/u/0/+LanaDelRey/videos

Smoldering desire for intense one-on-one connection through an absolute boundary on a depressive makes for a very Fourish-seeming 2w3-6w7-9wX sp/sx decadent woman.

But if you're not fooled by the something-that-seems-Fourishness, and you have certain stereotypes about how intellectual, how deep, how intense, how artistically inspired, how alternative, how culturally critical, etc. a Two can (or better said, "can't") be, you'll look to the fixes for her type, say she's a 6 or a 9, place the sx first in the stacking, and of course confer upon her the Holy of Holies--the Four fix.

The closest to that is that she's a "Two at Four" in core dynamics--a "decadent"/depressive one.


Here she is covering one of her idols, whom she compares herself to and proclaims her de facto mentor, Nancy Sinatra, strong sx 3w2.






Even Lana's predilection for "smokey" old-fashioned Super 8 style handheld camera effects (she does this _a lot_, and also much "film noir" stylization) is totally sp/sx. Smokey, sensual "home movies".


----------



## Roshan

Her acknowledged role model, strong sx social 3w2 Nancy. Again, it is possible to type "on the line". We're on the "2/3" line, fully exteriorized image, and looking at the difference between the "air and sunlight" and "smoke and shadows" synergies of soc/sx and sp/sx, respectively. It makes for the difference between a Nancy Sinatra (also 6/7 line and 9-fixed) and a *"gangsta" *_Nancy Sinatra_, as Lana calls herself, and, more importantly,_ *as she asks us to call her.*

_A "gangsta" being archetypally sp-first and social last with strong sx. Survival-of-the-fittest, and the fittest is the one with the most sx "juice". Comparing Lana's "gangsta" "decadence" to Nancy's soc/sx "wholesomeness".







Lana's an sp/sx 2w3. The non-Four mistypings for her are her fixes, with sx placed first. But sx 6s and 9s don't want to be perceived as *any* Nancy Sinatra, gangsta or otherwise. We may like Nancy, perhaps even love her. We may even borrow something from her style. But it goes no further than that. 

_We wouldn't ask to be seen as her avatar._


----------



## Roshan

Adele is also a reviver of some aspects of a Nancy Sinatraish pre-cultural upheaval 60s aesthetic for women a half century after Nancy's boots first walked. Like Lana, Adele has a 2w3 heart fix. But it's not leading--clearly not an image type. She's also very clearly soc/sx like Nancy, and with the 6/7 line and 9. soc/sx Adele emphasizes the wholesome sunshine/air aspects of the 60s Nancyish lounge singer style. Lana's version is a different story.

http://img.timeinc.net/time/2012/t100/t100_adeleadkins.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Xaf5wZMVYCU/TZjBfje8sII/AAAAAAAABFA/5Fi8NxfNcAo/s400/IMG_0647.JPG

http://lifeisreallybeautiful.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Lana-Del-Rey

Shades of Lana's fellow sp/sxer Baudelaire's "Flowers of Evil". A different kind of photosynthesis with a darker clorophyl. Stacking is almost as important as core type.

Sp/sx 2w3-6w7-9wX. The Baudelarian Baby Sitter.


----------



## Roshan

Adele is most likely head-leading. It's obvious in interviews, though I find her 9/2 predominates onstage. Probably 7w6 (like Nancy's head fix). Whatever she is, her relationship to flowers is very different from Lana's.

http://www.sadeesays.com/blog/wp-co...Flowers-Adele-Valetino-Dress-2013-Grammys.jpg

http://www.divinecaroline.com/sites/divinecaroline.com/files/ext/lana-del-rey.jpg

http://www.freim.tv/wp-content/uploads/052aa3c8a0c1f07c991339f3bfe86365.jpg


----------



## Roshan

This baby's parent thread:

http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/362138-lana-del-rey-not-4-a.html


----------



## Roshan

tresemme said:


> ...and it's all sprinkled with glitter. She wax poetic and sad eyes, all the while striking a pose to go along with her prose.


It's ALL sprinkled with glitter? 

Where's the glitter in this? This is one of the most moving, honest, and also most _awkward _performances I've ever seen.

Again:






Where's the glitter in her interview with Katy Perry? Did you watch it?

Are you trying to really see her at all?


----------



## Roshan

The awkwardness with being embodied in the physical realm while at the same time expressing the deepest emotional Marianas Trench actually brings to mind the late, great Ian Curtis, who was very clearly on the 4/5 line. (Most say 5w4 but idn why not 4w5). It transmits not only in the affect but in specific physical movements.






ALL glitter? Really?

And even if a lot of it is, why can't the glitter be in the stacking? Sx/soc is the glittery stacking. and strong sx socials often fall in this category. Sx/sp can get pretty glittery too (and strong sx sp-first has its moments... ). Basically, performance-wise, sx will tend to have its brand of glitter, because the performance is also a _mating dance.

_Strong sx is exhibitionistic. There is a need to display, to attract (audience as mate).


----------



## Roshan

Ian died so young (suicide) that I don't think there are any clear live videos of him singing his melancholy (but still proto-Goth) love songs, but they express the same terror of being utterly abandoned--he may not call it Cosmic Love but he conveys the same sense that being abandoned by a lover is being abandoned by the entire universe, falling into a Black Hole.


----------



## Roshan

Betrayal and abandonment were huge themes for Ian. I understand they also are with sx 5 but the 6 themes seem so explicit. 






Don't know if that's all about the "confidence sx 5" who tells the secrets. Seems it would be more like a 4w5 with 6w5 fix. So I thought 4w5-6w5-9w1 sx/sp but I also don't know enough about all this to say. I suspect understanding it would help to clarify Florence though.

In Atmosphere, there is "See The danger, always danger. Don't walk away". But then,the most unhealthy level of 5 is the Terrified Alien...and most unhealthy he was indeed...but he wasn't an alien in that schizoid way; his terrors had blood and guts..Accounts of what he was like in real life don't sound particularly triple withdrawn either fwiw...

I mean, "I put my trust in you" is one thing but "I always looked to you" seems very specifically about guidance.


----------



## Roshan

*"Cosmic Love"

A falling star fell from your heart and landed in my eyes
I screamed aloud, as it tore through them, and now it's left me blind

The stars, the moon, they have all been blown out
You left me in the dark
No dawn, no day, I'm always in this twilight
In the shadow of your heart

And in the dark, I can hear your heartbeat
I tried to find the sound
But then it stopped, and I was in the darkness,
So darkness I became

The stars, the moon, they have all been blown out
You left me in the dark
No dawn, no day, I'm always in this twilight
In the shadow of your heart

I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map
And knew that somehow I could find my way back
Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too
So I stayed in the darkness with you

The stars, the moon, they have all been blown out
You left me in the dark
No dawn, no day, I'm always in this twilight
In the shadow of your heart

The stars, the moon, they have all been blown out
You left me in the dark
No dawn, no day, I'm always in this twilight
In the shadow of your heart

***



*Seven? OFGS. Even I couldn't write this.

And if I could, I couldn't perform it like she did. And neither could Tori, believe me.


----------



## sittapygmaea

ha! my posting crossed with the dismissal of puzzle metaphors. funny. now i really must go to bed.


----------



## enneasite.com

Roshan said:


> "sp/sx 7 "


Doing a google image search, plus looking at lyrics, etc, I'd expect to see more grunge/'street'/gypsy/voodoo/dark/messiness/'downwardness' popping off the page with sp/sx 7. And she's not enough of the assertive/temperamental diva to be a 7w8; too often demurring and 'friendly' -- 7w_6_ is the way to go. 

At the moment, for contrast, can only think of some male rockers who are sp/sx 7w6: Steven Tyler, Ron Wood, Bon Scott, Joe Walsh. I see Flo as *so/sp*.


----------



## Roshan

sittapygmaea said:


> Having said all that, I'm actually _very_ curious about whether I will find your arguments persuasive given my own reading of her and knowledge (or lack thereof) of enneagram arcana.


You won't find my arguments persuasive, I'm pretty sure of that, especially since I don't have time to give logically tight ones. So since it'll hardly take any time, I'll post a couple of things so Florence can speak for herself".

_ Our time is running out and, although we’ve had a good chat, I still don’t feel like I know the real Florence, so I reach for the back-up interview question: how would your friends describe you? She turns to her manager and asks her how to describe her. I’m feeling bold and tell her to stop cheating. *She considers for a while before answering*.

__*“Excitable, easily distracted*, sometimes vacant,prone to gloominess and also extreme euphoria; I can’t be generous with time, but I try to be generous with affection. *I’m really lucky to be able to be in some of these situations and it feels really nice to be able to take people along with me for the ride*. Oh, and I’m a pain in the ass as well.” I leave, finally feeling like I’ve got a glimpse of the real Florence… "
_
sp 7: extended family
sx 7: distractability


----------



## Roshan




----------



## Roshan

Daisy Lowe, Florence Welch kiss for Terry Richardson :: Fashion news


----------



## Roshan

Fundamentally Positive Outloook.

Everyone has four types: a head, heart and gut type and a stacking.

She has three extreme withdrawn types (4w5, 9w1, and sp/sx--though this last is also hedonist/clothes horse/powerhouse. 

She has only one Assertive type. It just happens to be her main one.


----------



## Roshan

FUNDAMENTALLY Positive Attitude


----------



## Roshan

Glutton.






Fours faced it the day they were born. They wouldn't have it any other way. And 5w4s...well, like I said, I have no time to be discursive so I'll leave it there. Let me know if you want more.


----------



## Roshan

One more Glutton.

"We are all too young to die".

7 Basic Fear: Deprivation


----------



## Roshan

del


----------



## Roshan

Last thing:

The only preconception I had about her type when I read the interview was that I didn't want Florence to be a 7 because it would make me look like an idiot (at least theoretically). :tongue:


----------



## Roshan

[/QUOTE]
@enneasite.com,

I can't comment because I have no time today. But I'd like to know how you type Alanis Morisette, and also a full tritype and stacking with Florence. If you wouldn't mind taking some time to skim down the thread and look over the posts we have here, about them first. I feel 4 doesn't make sense for Alanis unless she's soc/sp. Thanks.

Please do look at those posts first, though.


----------



## Roshan

enneasite.com said:


> Doing a google image search, plus looking at lyrics, etc, I'd expect to see more grunge/'street'/gypsy/voodoo/dark/messiness/'downwardness' popping off the page with sp/sx 7. And she's not enough of the assertive/temperamental diva to be a 7w8; too often demurring and 'friendly' -- 7w_6_ is the way to go.
> 
> At the moment, for contrast, can only think of some male rockers who are sp/sx 7w6: Steven Tyler, Ron Wood, Bon Scott, Joe Walsh. I see Flo as *so/sp*.


Sorry, the post above was in response to this.


----------



## sittapygmaea

Thank you so much for taking the time to gather all these points and clips @Roshan. It does really help me see where you are coming from in your analysis and also see the features of Florence that are most salient for your typing. 

But now i feel guilty for unintentionally intruding on your busy day(s) with my skeptical queries, so for now i will just hush except to convey my appreciation and intention to go mull it all over.


This one, in particular is awesome. Just watching it kind of buoyed me. :happy:



Roshan said:


>


----------



## Animal

Roshan said:


> *Fours faced it the day they were born.* They wouldn't have it any other way.


Hahahaha. Amen.

Exactly. "You like to think that you're immune to stuff, it's closer to the truth to say you can't get enough." That is so very 7. I already think you're right from these songs and I haven't even read the interview yet.

7s want to think they're above it (positive outlook) but they are addicts (gluttons)

4s know they're not immune.. 4s face all of it..


----------



## Animal

Roshan said:


> One more Glutton.
> 
> "We are all too young to die".
> 
> 7 Basic Fear: Deprivation


7s have that thing.. "I have to do everything before I die!! Life is too short!"


Lol yeah.. the case looks solid so far. I'm still wondering though, why the choir in her head sang No, oh oh. 


7s are funny.


----------



## Animal

Animal said:


> Damn this is interesting.
> 
> "I was looking for a breath of life, a little touch of heavenly life, but all the choirs in my head sang no."
> !!!!!!!! WHAT why?!!!! WHY!


Maybe this is that thing where the choirs in her head are the line to 1?

I once read that 7s like to deprive themselves of something and then crave it and long for it.
I dont know.

Really interesting this song.

Maybe it's that thing where 7s feel like they'll go to hell for indulging so much.

Like Fiona Apple "save me from these evil deeds before I get them done.."


----------



## Animal

Yeah. She fooled me on not being a 7 . She doesnt have the spiteful sarcasm and that 7ish whimsical air like the others. But the issues are there.

Damn @Roshan. You're good!


----------



## Roshan

@_Animal_ ,

Sorry, all, I had to write this very quickly, it's a bit of a mess...

The choirs of angels are pointing to her head in part because of the lines to One on the 7 and 4 fixes, and on the wing of the 9, but they are also pointing to it because of her stacking, which is soc/sp. She is one of the Guardians. Like Alanis Mosesette, Oprah, MLK, Lady Gaga and her non-profit foundation to create heroic youth, soc/sp is the Messenger communicating from the realm of the Celestial to people to purify them of the Chthonic (sp/sx). Unlike sp/sx (Nina Simone's "Sinnerman"), which infects, soc/sp purifies. The Messsenger can be Moses coming down from the mountain with the tablets (MLK "Yes, I have been to the Mountain"), , it can be the Buddha (Alanis in "Thank you").

What I was mistaking (due to the extreme tension between the main type and the stacking) for sp/sx's "stone" (or perhaps best said, clay) veil was the soc/sp voice of speaking as stone--as the mountain itself, or the tablets, or the messenger...or all rolled into one:

Buddhas of Bamiyan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

sp/sx speaks through an earthen veil, soc/sp speaks and/or acts in one way or another as of stone (material or ethereal), as a statue as it were, to convey in some way a larger than life Message. I was confusing the two with her. Major duh moment. OF course she's speaking from Stone (which could be the Tablets, the Sword in the Stone, the Pilosopher's Stone, the Three Jewels, the statues of the fallen in battles, etc.), not through a veil of mud. Of course she's the embodiment of "pure" Cosmic Love...and that's the struggle of 4/7 to One (because integration/disintegration don't exist separately; they exist in dialectics... ) as well as soc/sp...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_YuJnwKLhcZk/TKqtv_ypL2I/AAAAAAAAEKY/FKFM4dVQLQU/s1600/florence-welch-1.jp


Of course she's one of the guardians. Of course she's frigging sx-last, The Pure. Realm of the Titans/The Messengers/The Heroic.


https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=alanis++morisette+thank+you+

https://www.google.com/search?q=joa...=rLJUVMviOo7asAT2iYGoDA&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

http://popcultureblog.dallasnews.com/files/2012/10/NGL_30FLORENCE01_27615881.jpg

google image search: Florence Welsh onstage

https://www.google.com/search?q=flo...0CAYQ_AUoAQ#tbm=isch&q=florence+welsh+onstage

I have quite a bit more to say about this but unfortunately I have to go. WIll do so later. Suffice for now to say that I had started preparing to write this last night with images of Joan of Arc and all before I even saw the video you posted, Animal . _And it could not have been more perfect. _(NO pun intended).

Type One, the Emperor, is inherently sx-last. soc/sp--the 1ish/6ish one...She is One of the Guardians.

But it isn't so simple and it's all so simple; it brings up major questions. With their concomitant major answers which will lead to major questions...while learning the Tai Chi Long Form of the E...to be continued...


----------



## Roshan

1-4-7 integration (tritype of DaVinci); relationship of 1-4-7 to soc/sp captured here.

https://www.google.com/search?q=the...a=X&ei=k7dUVLCXMfCAsQSAhoHgDw&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

http://www.history.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/sistine-chapel-creation-of-adam.jpg

When Flo sings "Cosmic Love" she is at the point where the fingers are touching. soc/sp--the Perfect Pure. She is the mountain, her song is the message.

Like the tumblr poster said--She is everyone's Cosmic Love.

Duh.


----------



## Roshan

She_ is_ One of the Guardians.

Florence the Sistene.


----------



## Roshan

She sings to us. We are the ones who have left the Light in the Dark. It sings to us through Florence and the Machine.

She transmits It through her hands.


----------



## enneasite.com

> enneasite
> 
> I can't comment because I have no time today. But I'd like to know how you type Alanis Morisette, and also a full tritype and stacking with Florence. If you wouldn't mind taking some time to skim down the thread and look over the posts we have here, about them first. I feel 4 doesn't make sense for Alanis unless she's soc/sp. Thanks.
> 
> Please do look at those posts first, though.


Briefly, from only doing mid-deep dive into the Flo, I'm considering 7w6-9w1-4w3 for her tritype. The Peter Pan / _puer aeternus_ / 'satanic faerie' tritype...which would be in a fair amount of conflict with so/sp, with its tonality that's partly overly-adult, imperious, authoritarian, serious, high clergy-like. I call it 'the bishop'. The conflict, then, being a possible cause of confusion. Also, in my book, so/sp has the _most_ power to distort the Type, very often making for a wide myriad of mistypings.


Regarding Alanis: this tune reflects a mode we might expect to see in 4 combined with so/sp [among other things, she wants to be the teacher/'clergyman'/philosopher (so/sp), but confesses (4-like) to her envy and narcissism]:


_"One"_

_I am the biggest hypocrite_
_I've been undeniably jealous_
_I have been loud and pretentious_
_I have been utterly threatened_
_I've gotten candy for my self, and dressed_
_the sexy treadmill capitalist_
_heaven forbid I be criticized_
_heaven forbid I be ignored_

_I have abused my power, forgive me_
_you mean we actually are all one_
_one one one one one one one_
_I've been out of reach and separatist_
_heaven forbid average (whatever average means)_
_I have compensated for my days_
_of powerlessness_

_I have abused my so-called power forgive me_
_you mean we actually are all one_
_one one one one one one one_

_did you just call her amazing?_
_surely we both can't be amazing!_
_and give up my hard earned status_
_as fabulous freak of nature?_

_I have abused my power forgive me_
_you mean we actually are all one_
_one one one one one one one_
_always looked good on paper_
_sounded good in theory_


----------



## Animal

enneasite.com said:


> Regarding Alanis: this tune reflects a mode we might expect to see in 4 combined with so/sp [among other things, she wants to be the teacher/'clergyman'/philosopher (so/sp), but confesses (4-like) to her envy and narcissism]:
> 
> 
> _"One"_
> 
> _I am the biggest hypocrite_
> _I've been undeniably jealous_
> _I have been loud and pretentious_
> _I have been utterly threatened_
> _I've gotten candy for my self, and dressed_
> _the sexy treadmill capitalist_
> _heaven forbid I be criticized_
> _heaven forbid I be ignored_
> 
> _I have abused my power, forgive me_
> _you mean we actually are all one_
> _one one one one one one one_
> _I've been out of reach and separatist_
> _heaven forbid average (whatever average means)_
> _I have compensated for my days_
> _of powerlessness_
> 
> _I have abused my so-called power forgive me_
> _you mean we actually are all one_
> _one one one one one one one_
> 
> _did you just call her amazing?_
> _surely we both can't be amazing!_
> _and give up my hard earned status_
> _as fabulous freak of nature?_
> 
> _I have abused my power forgive me_
> _you mean we actually are all one_
> _one one one one one one one_
> _always looked good on paper_
> _sounded good in theory_


Wow this sounds very social 4. I hadn't known this song before.

I am starting to agree with So/Sp 4 for Alanis. I'll share my thoughts when I have a bit more time.


----------



## Roshan

enneasite.com said:


> Briefly, from only doing mid-deep dive into the Flo, I'm considering 7w6-9w1-4w3 for her tritype. The Peter Pan / _puer aeternus_ / 'satanic faerie' tritype...which would be in a fair amount of conflict with so/sp, with its tonality that's partly overly-adult, imperious, authoritarian, serious, high clergy-like. I call it 'the bishop'. The conflict, then, being a possible cause of confusion. Also, in my book, so/sp has the _most_ power to distort the Type, very often making for a wide myriad of mistypings.
> 
> 
> Regarding Alanis: this tune reflects a mode we might expect to see in 4 combined with so/sp [among other things, she wants to be the teacher/'clergyman'/philosopher (so/sp), but confesses (4-like) to her envy and narcissism]:


Your trityping of Flo seems not unlikely having factored in the soc/sp stacking, which can account for megadoses of both bigness, gravitas, and intellectuality, so to say. Major duh moment in not considering it; perhaps will elaborate a bit later on why I didn't, but whatever. Confusion of speaking through a "stone veil" sp/sx with Speaking From/As the Mountain/Tablets itself. 

In any case people should know about the stacks and the dialectical, elemental, and archetypal relationships.

http://enneasite.com/the-stackings/

Ah, the aptly named "flo-jo".

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=26332#.VFUvfvSOS5I

I already confirmed Alanis "Mosesette" for myself as an soc/sp 4 with the video "Thank You" which I relinked in the most recent posts on Flo and soc/sp. (There was also that song about "I'll be your guardian"...big clue; 6s want to BE protected (even cph ones), while soc/sp's _are _"The Guardians"). I have Alanis with 6w7 and 9w8 fixes. What I'm most grappling with now is why Flo is so extremely withdrawn-seeming in many interviews, and even when not, she still is--one thing which made me not consider soc/sp, (though seems that was off-base). On the other hand Alanis's gregarious _almost, almost_ attachment style is apparent in all her interviews. She seems like a 6 but there's a something that's not right, something that's frustration, it just is--but it's in the work that you really see the 4 imo. I find it curious how with both having soc/sp stacking, Flo, a 7, seems far more withdrawn in interviews than Alanis, a 4. And most likely 4w5, no?

I think Flo is the canvas on which elemental forces are painting things that are very difficult indeed for a mere Titan; I think part of what's going on is it's just hard for her tbh.


----------



## Animal

@Roshan

FWIW I see Florence as an Sp/So type and Alanis as an So/Sp type. Also "withdrawn" in enneagram language is not always the same as it is in colloquial terms. I will try to elaborate on both soon..a bit busy today. But I can't see So being Flo's main instinct, she feels very Sp to me...


----------



## Roshan

Animal said:


> Wow this sounds very social 4. I hadn't known this song before.
> 
> I am starting to agree with So/Sp 4 for Alanis. I'll share my thoughts when I have a bit more time.


 @_Animal_ ,

I just can't see anyone but an soc/sp 4 making that video, Thank You. Try it on for size with any other main type and stacking and it won't work.


----------



## Roshan

Again, as you and I agree, @_Animal_ , it's not to say one should ever type from one video. Or interview or whatever. But when you get a bunch of information and then something that bizarre and huge and deeply felt comes along, it's almost like it branded her imo. Again, the prow of the ship, the SS Alanis Mosesette leading the Navy of ordinary seamen to the Light. She thanks India and frustration and we should thank her for it; she gets the Energy from being part of humanity but we get more from her....


----------



## Animal

Roshan said:


> @_Animal_ ,
> 
> I just can't see anyone but an soc/sp 4 making that video, Thank You. Try it on for size with any other main type and stacking and it won't work.


Yeah. The more I think about Alanis, So/Sp 4 works very nicely. Her line to 1 is strong, too.


Oh about the video- it is VERY social 4. And yeah I agree it shouldn't brand someone but it does actually fit wiht the rest of her - even the interviews, considering she has a 6 fix, and she's a mature person, confident enough to talk about what she believes. 

I don't really feel that 4w5s have to be quiet and withdrawn in the colloquial sense. To speak for myself im pretty sure Im a 4w5 and I can be very shy in crowds or with strangers, and lost for words where small talk is concerned, but on an issue I care about you can't shut me up. Same goes for my friend who is such a textbook 4w5 there is NO QUESTION WHATSOEVER about his type. And he would chatter on and on about issues he cares about. Probably a social 4 as well. The thing is , both he and I require TONS of alone time. Maybe Alanis requires alone-time but she can chatter alot when she's in her element.


----------



## Roshan

soc/sp

http://www.sanfranciscosentinel.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/charlton-heston-2.jpg

http://mostthingsthai.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/bhudda-mountain.jpg

https://plus.google.com/u/0/+AlanisMorissette/posts
@_Animal_, soc/sp 4 is diametrically opposed in fundamental ways to soc/sx. Have a look at the enneasite link I posted above. She can't be anything but an soc/sp 4. If she doesn't have that stacking she has to be another type. And that type would be 6, or far less likely, 9. But I can't imagine any 6 or 9 ever making that "Thank You" thing or saying half the things she says in her songs, really.

So she's a 4. 

So that means she's an soc/sp 4.

Alanis Mosesette it is for me.

Soc/sp 4 doesn't show shame the way soc/sx 4 does. Soc/sx 4 is the sad sack. Soc/sp 4 is the warrior. They BATTLE shame for the public good. It's the Oneish/Sixish stacking (oy vey... ). The PUBLIC should be ashamed, HUMANITY should be ashamed, the EXPLOITERS should be ashamed, whatever, and by golly they are going to do something about it to protect them...

it's a really, really weird fit with a 4w5 but there you have it....

Manson as well, but he has a much stronger connection to sx and other things going on...


***

Add on:

Where you really see that Manson's sp is before his sx in the stacking is when he got all the tougher and more confident the more he got blamed for Columbine. That line in the interview about what would he tell the kids..."I wouldn't tell them a thing. I'd listen to them. And that's what nobody's doing".

_Zip zap zam whammo. He won hands down.

_He is a Guardian.


----------



## Animal

@_Roshan_

6's like Amy Lee express 4-fixish stuff in their songs, so it could be also that Alanis expresses 6-fixish stuff while still being a 4 core.

Especially because Amy Lee's stacking of Sx first feels more 4ish to the listener while Alanis's Sx-last stacking might make her feel more super-ego heavy.


----------



## Animal

Roshan said:


> Soc/sp 4 doesn't show shame the way soc/sx 4 does. Soc/sx 4 is the sad sack. Soc/sp 4 is the warrior. They BATTLE shame for the public good. It's the Oneish/Sixish stacking (oy vey... ). The PUBLIC should be ashamed, HUMANITY should be ashamed, the EXPLOITERS should be ashamed, whatever, and by golly they are going to do something about it to protect them...


Wow... this is very interesting... Now _this_ is mind candy for me to chew on. 



> it's a really, really weird fit with a 4w5 but there you have it....
> 
> Manson as well, but he has a much stronger connection to sx and other things going on...


Manson yes. He has that flavor too though. With.. society should be ashamed. He is the leader , showing everyone else the truth.


----------



## Roshan

Right. I've maintained this stereotype of the 4/5 line as somehow "shy", despite my great knowledge of and love of two of my greatest female influences, Patti Smith and Laurie Anderson. Two more confident, outspoken big mouths you could never hope to find...and larger than life, too...Laurie being dignified and Patti being wild but both are really in your face...in _the world's_ face.

Really...let it go, Rosh. Throw it out with the mothballs...


----------



## Roshan

@Animal, 

I'm not knocking "Thank you" or Alanis btw.

But Florence and the Sistine is operating at a higher level of development than Alanis Mosesette. 

Both do very well, though.


----------



## Animal

Roshan said:


> @_Animal_,
> 
> I'm not knocking "Thank you" or Alanis btw.
> 
> But Florence and the Sistine is operating at a higher level of development than Alanis Mosesette.
> 
> Both do very well, though.


I agree.

Alanis doesn't move me as deeply as some other musicians. I respect her. A lot. But she's not soul-shaking, for me anyway, on the level of Marilyn Manson, Trent Reznor, Jeff Martin, Amy Lee, Matt Bellamy.. and, I must say I'm pretty impressed with Florence too. I can't stop listening to "Breath of Life" and the choir in her head singing no no no. 

But Florence also seems on a higher spiritual plane.. I know what you mean. Hard to describe but yes.


----------



## Roshan

Animal said:


> @_Roshan_
> 
> FWIW I see Florence as an Sp/So type and Alanis as an So/Sp type. Also "withdrawn" in enneagram language is not always the same as it is in colloquial terms. I will try to elaborate on both soon..a bit busy today. But I can't see So being Flo's main instinct, she feels very Sp to me...


Fine, no rush. 

Florence Welch is a very complex person. But sp/soc is _Everyman. _And again..

soc/sp

https://www.google.com/search?q=joa...=hjlVVJDtOLT_sASBvIGYAQ&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

https://www.google.com/search?q=flo...a=X&ei=vTlVVJO_DpbbsATC_oHABA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw

Wait...maybe there is something to it. She isn't really doing the statuesque thing...it's something subtly different...she is literally transmitting the Energy angelically.

But you also have to remember that Moses and Angels are both messengers. (In Persian the word for Angel is "Fereshteh", it means Messenger). 

No reason why soc/sp has to be Moses Mountain.

Soc/sp is _The Realm of the Pure.

_Sp/soc is also pure in its way, but it's the Pure Everyman. And Florence...

well...maybe...

Remembering that one interview with Katy Perry, how she literally had her hands crossed to protect her from the public--I've only seen sp firsts behave like that (usually sp/sx btw)...one thing to realize though is that the stacking are in a constant flux (the flo-jo). Sooooo....

okay, the Flo stacking issue isn't resolved yet, and with it, the full trityping either. But we're playing with a fuller deck of candy...


----------



## Animal

Yeah it's a lot to percolate on. Sp/So AND So/Sp 7 (w8??) .. not something I encounter every day, especially in a musician..


----------



## Roshan

soc/sp

http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/1-moses-descending-mt-sinai-granger.jpg

http://mostthingsthai.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/bhudda-mountain.jpg (Thailand)

https://www.google.com/search?q=ala...a=X&ei=Tj1VVP2pCLeasQTT-oHwBA&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ 

https://www.google.com/search?q=lau...a=X&ei=dj1VVNWYF_D9sASQ14CYCw&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ (the vibe in her interviews)

But it's a weird mix, no doubt about it. She's solid in her interviews but like a watery statue in Thank You but a statue nonetheless...oh the 4.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ala...=kj1VVOO0PLiRsQTbgYGgBA&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg


----------



## Animal

Roshan said:


> soc/sp
> 
> http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/1-moses-descending-mt-sinai-granger.jpg
> 
> http://mostthingsthai.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/bhudda-mountain.jpg (Thailand)
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=ala...a=X&ei=Tj1VVP2pCLeasQTT-oHwBA&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=lau...a=X&ei=dj1VVNWYF_D9sASQ14CYCw&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ (the vibe in her interviews)
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=ala...=kj1VVOO0PLiRsQTbgYGgBA&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg


All I can think is UGH I'm so jealous of Alanis's gorgeous hair .. mine falls out from illness and all my life I wanted hair like that...


... .lolol calm down Animal.


Nice images.

I see your point. Flo does have that air about her. In the interview where she blocks herself off it looks very sp. But her topics in her songs.. are they more so or sp? Alanis is definitely social aimed. I have to listen through some songs and see if I can sense a trend.


----------



## Roshan

This one.

https://www.google.com/search?q=bud...a=X&ei=LD9VVKfQKPO_sQTqwIGYDw&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ


----------



## Animal

Roshan said:


> This one.
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=bud...a=X&ei=LD9VVKfQKPO_sQTqwIGYDw&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ


Florence does pose herself in that kind of way. With the outfits with the big sleeves etc. Like she wants to hug the world or she has wings to fly above it.


----------



## Roshan

Animal said:


> All I can think is UGH I'm so jealous of Alanis's gorgeous hair .. mine falls out from illness and all my life I wanted hair like that...
> 
> 
> ... .lolol calm down Animal.
> 
> 
> Nice images.
> 
> I see your point. Flo does have that air about her. In the interview where she blocks herself off it looks very sp. But her topics in her songs.. are they more so or sp? Alanis is definitely social aimed. I have to listen through some songs and see if I can sense a trend.


I would say at the moment that Flo is operating at a very high level. She is possibly sp/sx transmitting soc/sp "The Pure" through The Chthonic, if that makes sense. All her instincts are fully available to her, but she is beyond sx/soc, which is the instinct of self-immolation.

sp/sx The Chthonic, The Infector
soc/sp The Guardians, The Purifiers
sx/soc The Self-Immolators, Self-Crucifieds.

They symbolically purify the chthonic through self-immolation. It's the way _sp-last _works on the Larger-than-Life side of the flo-jo.

Hard to see Flo on the human side, but...not impossible....I mean, wearing a diaphanous angel gown at the Nobel Prizes and declaring herself the Cosmic Lover of all mankind and literally being an Angel...I do mean literally, yes...

very unusual to find someone making a tumblr about an sp/soc as The Cosmic Love of us all...

but not impossible, since we're breaking ground here...who knows?

I'm open.


----------



## Roshan

Actually, a better way to put it than "beyond sx/soc" would be to say...ummm...

she's just not sp last.

But sx/soc can be very self-destructive, even if only by accident while we're doing whatever it is that we do...


----------



## Superfluous

Not sure if it's been touched in this thread yet - my computer wont let me check without going unresponsive :bored: - but Bob Dylan seems 6w5 to me, he is NOT a 4.


----------



## Roshan

Animal said:


> Florence does pose herself in that kind of way. With the outfits with the big sleeves etc. Like she wants to hug the world or she has wings to fly above it.


I think you don't mean the link you quoted. I know what you mean though and I know she does. 

See, she's an air Buddha (7)--that is, an angel, albeit a most substantial one--and Alanis is a water Buddha (4), at least in their most relevant (and in Alanis's case probably most significant) work...

I don't think the soc/sp has to be a stone Buddha to speak from stone...it can be watery or airy or fiery stone...

Type is the car, instinct is what drives it....

The soc/sp Stone Tablets drive the type...the type is still the type.

One really unhealthy soc/sp 1w9-6w5-3w4 looked like this. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=aya...=nENVVIX6DoqQsQSdvYHwCA&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

Stone is driving Stone.


----------



## Animal

Roshan said:


> Actually, a better way to put it than "beyond sx/soc" would be to say...ummm...
> 
> she's just not sp last.
> 
> But sx/soc can be very self-destructive, even if only by accident while we're doing whatever it is that we do...



Healthy 7s can also be intensely "spiritually aware" - - -the commonly discussed 7 dichotomy is gluttony/sobriety, but other enneagram texts will call it gluttony/wisdom . Or, sobriety/wisdom. Much like 3's sin is vanity or deceit depending on the text.

I see with 7, a wisdom that is unmatched , when they are healthy. It's an enthusiasm about the world mixed with the line-to-5 awareness of what is important, and singularity of focus. They are the eternal child, but Yoda is also playful - there's wisdom in carrying a childlike spirit into your elder years, while still collecting knowledge and experience. Wisdom.


I am not saying Yoda is a 7. Just..it's a symbol of what I mean about the wisdom of the childishness.


----------



## Roshan

Superfluous said:


> Not sure if it's been touched in this thread yet - my computer wont let me check without going unresponsive :bored: - but Bob Dylan seems 6w5 to me, he is NOT a 4.


Yes, it's on here. Wait, I'll link it to this post. You will have fun.


----------



## Animal

Superfluous said:


> Not sure if it's been touched in this thread yet - my computer wont let me check without going unresponsive :bored: - but Bob Dylan seems 6w5 to me, he is NOT a 4.


Yes! I agree completely. I had said earlier in this thread that both John Lennon and Bob Dylan are 6's.

Did you see this? @Roshan shared it with me - 

John Lennon, An Enneagram Profile by Gavan Kearney | Nine Points Magazine


----------



## Roshan

Animal said:


> Healthy 7s can also be intensely "spiritually aware" - - -the commonly discussed 7 dichotomy is gluttony/sobriety, but other enneagram texts will call it gluttony/wisdom . Or, sobriety/wisdom. Much like 3's sin is vanity or deceit depending on the text.
> 
> I see with 7, a wisdom that is unmatched , when they are healthy. It's an enthusiasm about the world mixed with the line-to-5 awareness of what is important, and singularity of focus. They are the eternal child, but Yoda is also playful - there's wisdom in carrying a childlike spirit into your elder years, while still collecting knowledge and experience. Wisdom.
> 
> 
> I am not saying Yoda is a 7. Just..it's a symbol of what I mean about the wisdom of the childishness.


Absolutely. Lines to 5 and 1. How much wiser can you get?

Thanks for pointing it out...


----------



## Roshan

Roshan said:


> Yes, it's on here. Wait, I'll link it to this post. You will have fun.


 @Superfluous,

Here's our Dylan discussion.

http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/364722-they-4s-22.html


----------



## Roshan

I must add here that sp/sx is not "less than" or "below" the other two. It's a kind of raising of cosmic kundalini, from magma in the bowels of the earth (sp/sx) spews through the lava of the volcano (sx/soc) up to the Sky Gods, as it were (Solar God crucified in the Frazier sense is totally sx/soc) and then some Moses type transmits it in some tablets/stone way through the type, and then the sp/sx comes to "kill the Buddha", so to say. Otherwise all we would have is dogma on the one hand and inane navel gazers on the other. That is the danger of soc/sp.

Sorry if all of this isn't making literal sense...it's not complete nor intended to be...just...

spews...


----------



## Animal

It's so exciting to find people who agree about the musical 6's who are always typed by the community as 4s. It's stupid. So many 6's are so amazing, how they express their emotions in music. So human and raw yet intelligent at the same time. Also 6ish aggression is so deliciously RAWR. Bob Dylan is a 6 convention-challenger.


----------



## Roshan

This is the ultimate sx/soc. Leave it to a 4w5.

Yukio Mishima commits hari-kiri on tv to prove a point.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=yukio+mishima+youtube+suicide


----------



## Superfluous

Roshan said:


> @Superfluous,
> 
> Here's our Dylan discussion.
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/364722-they-4s-22.html


Much thanks @Roshan !


----------



## Animal

Roshan said:


> I must add here that sp/sx is not "less than" or "below" the other two. It's a kind of raising of cosmic kundalini, from magma in the bowels of the earth (sp/sx) through the lava of the volcano (sx/soc) up to the Sky Gods, as it were (Solar God crucified in the Frazier sense is totally sx/soc) and then some Moses type transmits it in some tablets/stone way through the type, and then the sp/sx comes to "kill the Buddha", so to say. Otherwise all we would have is dogma on the one hand and inane navel gazers on the other. That is the danger of soc/sp.


Yeah, everything has its place. It's part of the cosmic order. or the cosmic chaos, depending on your world view. 

Where would sx/sp fit into this? I love this description.



> the lava of the volcano (sx/soc)


My friend calls me "volcano" - and I use this metaphor a lot. Makes me wonder about my own stacking. hehe.

I didn't read it as "less than." I read it as a different part of the cycle. I'm fairly new to the spiritual energies of the stackings - as a person with more depth in this study, I'm sure you can see that. I think I can grasp the spiritual nature of the types decently - I've come up with my own system of spiritual symbols (outside enneagram context) and they work very well with enneagram. But the stackings, I'm sucking the delicious juice from this thread.. but I am not quite there yet.. it's not instinctual yet.


I'd love to pick your brain about the stackings and how you view all of them in this scheme..


----------



## Roshan

Animal said:


> It's so exciting to find people who agree about the musical 6's who are always typed by the community as 4s. It's stupid. So many 6's are so amazing, how they express their emotions in music. So human and raw yet intelligent at the same time. Also 6ish aggression is so deliciously RAWR. Bob Dylan is a 6 convention-challenger.


Yeah, we Sixes get a frigging raw deal E-wise.

The only E-teacher I know who really gets us is Eli Jaxon-Bear, and to some extent, Naranjo, who was his big influence.

The Fauvres wouldn't recognize most truly creative Sixes if they bit them in the ass. They would have to be Fours.


----------



## Roshan

Aw, hell, all the types get a raw deal with this 4/5 line Fascism going around. That's where all the 'geniuses' live. Nines get it worse than Sixes. But look at Florence--she must be a Four, cf. Riso Hudson, Fauvres, and I think all the other pros who typed her too. Only some eidb boardies were typing her as 7. Then one person here too...but while saying she's ALL glitter and posing, and...no, m'dear, no...

And without getting what's going on with the stacks and the rest of the tritype, this to me doesn't really do her justice, much less further the knowledge in any significant way.


----------



## Roshan

Animal said:


> Yeah it's a lot to percolate on. Sp/So AND So/Sp 7 (w8??) .. not something I encounter every day, especially in a musician..


I am not abandoning the concept of a high level sp/sx 7 channeling soc/sp though. Not completely. Not yet.


----------



## Animal

Roshan said:


> Yeah, we Sixes get a frigging raw deal E-wise.
> 
> The only E-teacher I know who really gets us is Eli Jaxon-Bear, and to some extent, Naranjo, who was his big influence.
> 
> The Fauvres wouldn't recognize most truly creative Sixes if they bit them in the ass. They would have to be Fours.


Personally I find true creativity MOST common in sixes. 6's are the LEAST likely to accept a conventional thought model. In their desire to find something to have faith in, they question everything. So they come up with their own way of thinking about things. This can also lead to creativity. The line to 9 makes them want to escape their problems and go into the realm of imagination (see "Imaginary" by Evanescence) and the line to 3 makes them want to show others their truth, if they're healthy. The mental intensity involved with creativeness is especially strong in sixes whether they are artists or not.

I get how 4s have an artistic temperament, with wanting to wear or show their identity and having a strong aesthetic super-ego. But 4s can also be self-sabotaging and over-express their pain and loss instead of using their mind to really explore. Unhealthy 4s can be more love focused and more focused on being seen as different than actually being creative. It can turn into an image statement. Yes there are very amazingly creative 4s out there, but average day to day.. most of the truly creative people I've met IRL are 6s. Some are 4s and 7s. I will state again that any type can be creative, but I'm talking about trends... I feel this is over-attributed to 4 and under-attributed to 6.

EDIT @Roshan

I would say 4s are more EXPRESSIVE whereas 6s are more CREATIVE. 

Expressive = expressing WHO YOU ARE in your artwork. Auto-biographical work, etc.
Creative = challenging ideas, coming up with new ideas and methods.


----------



## Animal

Roshan said:


> Aw, hell, all the types get a raw deal with this 4/5 line Fascism going around. That's where all the 'geniuses' live. Nines get it worse than Sixes. But look at Florence--she must be a Four, cf. Riso Hudson, Fauvres, and I think all the other pros who typed her too. Only some eidb boardies were typing her as 7. Then one person here too...but while saying she's ALL glitter and posing, and...no, m'dear, no...
> 
> And without getting what's going on with the stacks and the rest of the tritype, this to me doesn't really do her justice, much less further the knowledge in any significant way.


Yeah. It really annoys me too because I'm typing at 4 for genuine reasons having to do with my faults and struggles, and I'm not saying that I'm above scrutiny, if someone disagrees with my self-typing for good reason bring it on. But once or twice I've been accused of typing at a "cool type" or typing this way "because I'm creative" (I was creative all my life and I typed at 5, 3 and 8 before 4, thanku) and I am also annoyed by all the whiny 4s and "I'm an artist so I must be a 4" 4s on various forums. It's hard to find genuine 4s to talk to because everyone and their mother mistypes at 4 because they're an artist , they are emotional, and they are in love with love.

When I mistyped at 3, nobody bothered me. Most people disagreed and thought I was a 7 or 4, but nobody bothered me because 3 isn't a "cool type."

It makes for a disingenuous enneagram community experience. So it's a raw deal if you happen to be a "cool type" also, because you have to deal with people's unwarranted skepticism of your motives.


----------



## Roshan

@Animal ,

You seem to me very clearly a 4.


----------



## Animal

Roshan said:


> @_Animal_ ,
> 
> You seem to me very clearly a 4.


Yeah.. I agree.. it's hard for me to believe I mistyped. I'm still contemplating fixes, wing, and my second stack but the 4 is just.. bam. Right there.

Most people who know enneagram well (or know me at all) would agree that I'm a 4. Even before I typed at 4 (and this used to annoy the crap out of me bc I couldn't argue my way out of it.) But I do occasionally get asked questions by skeptics who want to believe that anyone who types at 4 is doing it because they're an artist or they're wanting to be a "cool type" - and this is annoying.. but it is the result of stupid stereotypes and enneagram descriptions giving other types a raw deal.

If I ever write an enneagram book, everyone is going to want to be a 6 . Because I fucking love that type.


----------



## Superfluous

Animal said:


> Some points about Type 7 that I feel most people miss, and why they are confused for 4s:
> 
> 
> 1. 7s are SELF-PUNISHING. Everyone knows they have a sense of entitlement about them. "I am amazing and the world is my oyster." They have the gluttony... "I have to take and take as much as I can before it's too late." But there is also a line to 1, which makes them self-punish for this. 7s, if they believe in an after-life, often fear they will go to hell. Note that they are _afraid of the consequence_, more than they are ashamed. They have guilt, but not shame. Guilt is being sorry about your actions, shame is being embarrassed about who you _are_.
> 
> Exhibit A. Fiona Apple "Criminal."
> 
> _I've done wrong and I wanna suffer for my sin._
> 
> ___
> _Save me from these evil deeds before I get them done
> I know tomorrow brings the consequence at hand
> But *I keep living this day like the next will never come.*_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exhibit B. Emilie Autumn "Willow"
> 
> _It's cruel I know, at least they tell me so
> Well, *someone lock me up
> And throw away the key*
> Because I'm not ashamed, oh no , oh, willow
> 
> ___
> Slander and dissension, they're parlor games to me
> Papers overrun with lies too mad to mention
> You say they never hurt you, *no consequence, I'm happy
> We're much too far above it all but oh no, that's not true
> 
> These wicked pastimes take their toll
> These tyrant vices break your soul*
> Deliver me from all I am
> And all I never want to be
> 
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This can look like 4 masochism and self-loathing to an untrained eye. One way to tell the difference is, look to see if the 4 puts someone on a pedestal and places themselves under the pedestal. 7s will never do this. _Ever. _The 7 has "rose colored glasses" and might put their lover on a pedestal, but someone who is rejecting them will be diminished, because this is how rationalization works. The 7 must rationalize why she is okay and great. If the only way to do this is to diminish the other person, the 7 will do that. They will put lovers on a pedestal but never ever will they place themselves UNDER that pedestal. 4s do this naturally.. it's how envy and masochism works. The person rejecting them might even be exalted.
> 
> :::::::::::::::::::
> 
> 2. 7s are GENEROUS. They feel they have been blessed with so many good things, they want to endow their loved ones with these things because then their loved ones will never be deprived. Yes, they are gluttons, but they do have the capacity to love, and so the one thing that would break their heart would be to see their loved ones being deprived, and they will do ANYTHING to avoid this. But sometimes, like 2s (who are their opposite but on the same spectrum, like 4/8, and 5/1), they can feel resentful that the other person took them for granted or slighted them.
> 
> Exhibit A: Robert Plant 7w8 "Since I've been Loving You."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ::::::::::::::::::
> 
> 3. 7s are NOT NECESSARILY COMMITMENT PHOBIC. They are truly escapists, but that DOES NOT mean that they run away from relationships and shy away from commitments. Once a 7 has made a commitment, they will often OVERLOOK PROBLEMS because of their positivity, and rationalize why everything is Okay. They will continue trying as hard as they can to make things better and tell themselves that this relationship is JUST FINE, that their job situation is GOOD ENOUGH, etc. Their positivity, and the ego "I can handle any challenge life gives me!!" can actually lead them away from making decisions to better themselves, and can cause them to stay in situations, seeing only the good side, for way too long. They really, really don't like to admit that their important choices were wrong. 7's motto is "I'm okay!" - they don't want anyone to think they're not okay. They might tell their close friends that they're upset, but at the end, they will add on a bunch of good things. "Well, he's always drunk, and he fucked my best friend while I was at work, but he really loves me and he has tremendous potential. I think we'll be fine."
> 
> Exhibit A: The last song by Led Zeppelin has a line in it -
> 
> _*Everybody trying to tell me that you didn't mean me no good.
> I've been trying, *Lord, let me tell you, Let me tell you I really did the best I could.
> 
> _Exhibit B: Northern Lad._
> 
> *Girls you've got to know
> When it's time to turn the page*
> When you're only wet
> Because of the rain
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a reason 7s might be confused for 4s. This can look a lot like a 4's line to 2 from the outside. The 7 is being generous and doing everything to make it work because that is part of their pride.. "I am okay, I can do this." To tell the difference between 4's line to 2 and 7's pride in being able to handle anything, look for whether it's coming from feeling genuinely unlovable and "less than," or is it coming from "I am so damn awesome and you don't even realize it." This line can be blurry, of course.
> 
> :::::::::::::::::::::
> 
> 4. 7s DO NOT LIKE BEING CRITICIZED. They might have a monster ego, but they will take criticism to heart... it's a kind of "narcissistic entitlement" - they expect praise, and anything less will make them angry. They might even obsess over a person who rejected them because they have this need to be admired and loved, and when someone rejects them they feel like they want to turn it around. This is much less likely in a mature 7, who has 'no time for this bullshit because life is too short.' But look at how Tori Amos describes her childhood.
> 
> 
> _*He said you're really an ugly girl
> But I like the way you play*
> And I died
> But I thanked him
> Can you believe that
> Sick, sick, holding on to his picture
> Dressing up every day
> *I wanna smash the faces of those beautiful boys*
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is another reason they might be confused for 4s. Anger at criticism can look a lot like angry envy. 7s feel entitled to admiration, entitled to be the best, and can be spiteful toward someone else who is recognized as "better." But at the end of the day, 7s know they are awesome, and any clue that they are less than absolutely awesome will be rationalized away.
> 
> _So you can made me come
> That doesn't make you Jesus
> 
> _A 4 might say... you ARE Jesus, and I am but a mere mortal. There is no rationalization. I just suck and you bless me with your presence. Yes, the 4 will be angry about this, perhaps vengeful. But it comes from _envy_ and longing to be enough, feeling inherently_ less than_, not from writing the other person off as "less than me" in the end. This line can also be blurry, and both types can have opposite instances of each mindset, but it's something you can find overall in 4 albums vs. 7 albums over time.


Hello, I'm Superfluous and I approve, & endorse this message.


----------



## Animal

Superfluous said:


> Hello, I'm Superfluous and I approve, & endorse this message.


:kitteh: hehee glad <3


----------



## Superfluous

Also, great jobs @Animal & @Roshan, you guys are the bread and butter of this thread. And great job to everyone else - I can't believe I haven't been subscribed to this thread!


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## Animal

Superfluous said:


> Also, great jobs @_Animal_ & @_Roshan_, you guys are the bread and butter of this thread. And great job to everyone else - I can't believe I haven't been subscribed to this thread!


You should come play too. You know enneagram well and I love analyzing musicians with you on Skype roud:


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## Superfluous

Animal said:


> You should come play too. You know enneagram well and I love analyzing musicians with you on Skype roud:


It's so fun, I'll be around. :3


----------



## Roshan

@_Animal_, 

The basic stacking ideas are on enneasite.com under the stackings section. That is where they come from (originally elaborated on eidb and influenced also by typewatch... ). 

sp/soc-soc/sx-sx/sp are on the other side of the flo-jo.

This is also related to the movement of the stacks in health/unhealth.

For instance, as an sx/soc, if I'm not healthy, my sx will be obsessional and my sp will be a blind spot. (I Know you know, @_Animal_.) As I start to get healthy I'll get tired of sx obsessions and will focus more on social because the sp will never be my first instinct, I'm not wired that way. Later on I may go to sp/sx and really focus on domestic stuff...

and this was exactly the trajectory of David Bowie, for example. If you want me to elaborate, I can. 

Obviously sx/sp's and I can relate very well to each other sx-first to sx-first because we "get" each other, but I'll never become like an sx/sp. My sp will become my second one, but it won't become my first. And I'll never have my sx up front again, assuming I continue to become healthy.

So there are the two flows, and sx/sp is in the other flow. It's not a "going against" humanity. Due to the sx-first, it experiences itself in fundamental ways as such, but it goes with humanity "reluctantly", as a "Hungry Ghost", always looking to fit, feeling exempt, having social last contempt for the herd (conscious or unconscious) unless they start getting healthy...but in their acts and how they live they don't go against in the way the other flow does...

The elemental, 'spiritual' as you call it, stackings is a really important concept...you could call it also the 'archetypal'...or something else...but it needs to be understood much better. It originates from the author of enneasite.com but we're still only at the beginning so idn...

Case in point being Florence....

and _the way the stacks move...._idn as in I don't know...but there's also the wdn...we don't know that much yet...


----------



## tresemme

Animal said:


> @_Roshan_
> 
> 6's like Amy Lee express 4-fixish stuff in their songs, so it could be also that Alanis expresses 6-fixish stuff while still being a 4 core.


What's 4-fixish stuff?


----------



## Animal

Roshan said:


> The elemental, 'spiritual' as you call it, stackings is a really important concept...you could call it also the 'archetypal'...or something else...but it needs to be understood much better. It originates from the author of enneasite.com but we're still only at the beginning so idn...


So true.. I am starting to see its importance in these typings.

I was reading this just before you wrote this post. I will check out enneasite.com now.

Socionics - the16types.info - Instinctual Stackings



Very interesting stuff, the flows and how they move. Seems truly important, like how types move to growth points.


----------



## Roshan

Has anyone else here ever had a problem with posts that were posted a couple of weeks ago coming up blank?

The original post of this thread, the compilation I took about the different artists from the Lana del Rey thread, is there but it's blank. I thought it might be my computer but it's not because I'm on a different computer and it's still like that. That post took a long time and it inaugurates the entire discussion. It was really like fifteen posts together from several different people that I cut and pasted when the Lana del Rey thread was closed. Also another post I worked a lot on that was at the top of a discussion is gone. Not gone, but rather the posts are empty. Blank.


----------



## Animal

tresemme said:


> What's 4-fixish stuff?







"Am I so insignificant?"

Isolated/alone/forgotten/insignificant

I realize this is not necessarily 4. It's 4*ish* .

9s can also feel forgotten/ non existant, like they blended into the wall and nobody noticed. "I matter" is what 9s need to learn. So this could be spun many ways.

But it _feels_ 4ish, somehow. The indulgent emotions about the topic.


This, being attached to the past which was better than the present...







(Although her lyrics, "When you cried I'd wipe away all of your tears," etc, are expressing, "I am supportive!" which is clearly a type 6 self-image)


This song could be any type, but the "screaming about your broken heart" and wallowing, again FEELS 4ish.









I will need more time to make an actual case for 4 fix. I don't have a list of songs on my mind right now.. I listen to Evanescence a lot, so it would take some thought to isolate the songs that really communicate ACTUAL 4 issues the way Florence Welch communicates actual 9 issues and Alanis communicates 6 issues.


----------



## Animal

Roshan said:


> Has anyone else here ever had a problem with posts that were posted a couple of weeks ago coming up blank?
> 
> The original post of this thread, the compilation I took about the different artists from the Lana del Rey thread, is there but it's blank. I thought it might be my computer but it's not because I'm on a different computer and it's still like that. That post took a long time and it inaugurates the entire discussion. It was really like fifteen posts together from several different people that I cut and pasted when the Lana del Rey thread was closed. Also another post I worked a lot on that was at the top of a discussion is gone. Not gone, but rather the posts are empty. Blank.


What the flying fuck?

Grr!!!!!!!

That was such a great post!

(It's blank on my computer too)

We should issue a complaint in the support section.

http://personalitycafe.com/support-suggestions/


Do you want to do it or should I?


----------



## Animal

@_Roshan_

748 Sx/So or Sx/Sp ??


----------



## Roshan

Another thing that just hit me like kaboom was that Alanis looks an awful lot like a "Hungry Ghost" in that "Thank You" video...but in interviews, she's so solid...she's such a Laughing Buddha...and so almost-attachment....and when you call yourself a "Guardian" and portray yourself as the local downtown Buddha, ya know...

See, I know the info on the @_enneasite.com_ is really important. I know it from first-hand experience of myself and people I know...not just from peering into windows of celebrities on the Internet. But there's a lot that needs to be fleshed out...a lot of people are now working with these ideas, you'll find them all over the Net. But I don't think anyone is truly an 'expert' on them, because they're still embryonic. And that includes the originator of the ideas and the ones who've worked with them by now for years. There's little that anyone knows 100% for sure...

One way or the other, I'll be fleshing them. It would be nice to do it with people who've worked with the ideas a lot. But eidb (along with other problems) isn't really a place you can do that. People are very wedded to their own ideas and to one-upmanship. Very rarely does a boardie "heavy" actually change their mind about a typing that they're somehow invested in. Or a system...they also often don't like to explain things; they feel they've done their part over the years and years and now it's time to sit and make pronouncements...sort of like they become an soc/sp (while they're mostly social last) handing down tablets within a high sx-charged kingdom outside of 3D space....

but in any case soc/sp is extremely concerned with issues of purity and cleansing, implicitly or explicitly, and there is nothing more pure than the Sistene Glutton when she does her thing....so....


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## Animal

I will try to catch up on that


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## Animal

This is pure envy.

"An older version of me.." etc. She's pissed that she was replaced.


and here's an example of equanimity?







Also "You treat me like I'm a princess. I'm not used to liking that."

Yeah. Most 4s will go for the person that hurts them because.. masochism . 



"I've never wanted something rational."

Yeah. I wish. heheh


----------



## Animal

Aww. The last 5 seconds of this video. "Save the Earth/ Save the Heart" ... so true


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## Roshan

Animal said:


> Aww. The last 5 seconds of this video. "Save the Earth/ Save the Heart" ... so true


One of the archetypes of soc/sp on @_enneasite.com_ is The Bishop.

https://www.google.com/search?q=bis...a=X&ei=tY1VVNbfG5bCsATf9oDQCg&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

Lots of Bishop shots in that video. Put any image of her on pause. And yes, didactic and dry.


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## Roshan

Most likely 3w2-6w7-9w8 Extraordinary Ordinary soc/sp Bishop carrying the tablets down the mountain. Be all you can be. Read. (Outstanding Paragon of Emulation Healthy 3).

https://www.google.com/search?q=opr...CAcQ_AUoAg#tbm=isch&q=oprah+winfrey+book+club

http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium/moses-and-the-ten-commandments-giora-eshkol.jpg


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## Roshan

@_tresemme_,




Roshan said:


> It's ALL sprinkled with glitter?
> 
> Where's the glitter in this? This is one of the most moving, honest, and also most _awkward _performances I've ever seen.
> 
> Again:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where's the glitter in her interview with Katy Perry? Did you watch it?
> 
> Are you trying to really see her at all?


See, @_tresemme_, this post was to you. Your original post I was replying to didn't quote here, but unless I missed something, you never answered this. 

The eidb boardies I most respect in the discussion on Flo that I originally linked had Florence as a 7, except for Sunny, who stuck with the RH typing of 4. She posted the very withdrawn interviews to back that up, and I explained that for all Florence's hoopla performing, I was going to agree with Sunny. From there we started moving to 5. You're the person on this thread who said she's a 7 and you were right, she is. But the 7 without the right stacking neither does Florence justice nor moves knowledge of the Enneagram forward in any way. (I paraphrase myself from one of my subsequent posts on this thread).

So, again, I want the casual input, it's important--but as casual input acknowledged as such. As in "just passing through". Not as in "this is the definitive statement and here's why." (Alanis has no 6 because this, this, and this, as if there were no such thing as a stacking).

tbc, you said Florence was ALL glitter and posing very shortly after I posted the above video. And well...no, she's not. Under the video above I posted videos of Ian Curtis from Joy Division to show the commonalities in affect, physical movements, and themes.

So what I want is people who are either just passing through and they know it and they say so or people who are in.

I _still_ think 5wX with almost _any _stacking is actually a better typing of Florence than garden variety 7 with _no_ stacking. Or no plausible one with an attempt at understanding her. And things like your claiming she's ALL sprinkled with glitter and poses is the reason why.

btw, did you ever watch her interview with Katy Perry?


----------



## Roshan

There's a reason the Nobel Committee invited this woman to sing this song for the Peace Prize as we stand on the precipice of extinction as a species. There's a reason why the tumblr person called her "Everyone's Cosmic Lover". She embraces and accuses us; she incarnates The Great Mother and the Gnostic Beloved, our Essence as Stardust. 

She is no ordinary 7. She is the Essence of 7. She is Sophia, Wisdom, 7 at 5 and 1. I believe sp/soc is the correct stacking. For now. What I think is really happening is about movement of the stacks, similar to movement of the points. But we don't know enough about it yet to say. Somehow, through all the hoopla, the bells and whistles of 7, the Committee knew it. They just knew it.

She doesn't DRESS and ACT like an angel. She IS transmitting IT.

Again:


----------



## Roshan

"I took the stars from my eyes and I made a map. I knew somehow I could find my way back" is the Gnostic quest to return to God, to Sophia, to our true Essence as Stars, from our fallen state.

Is this 7w6 soc/sp or 7w8 sp/soc? Or something else with 7 leading? These aren't things that matter...not _really_....the Enneagram is a dynamic system that's always moving anyway. It's the Wheel of Being.

What matters is that without a discussion of the full tritype and stacks and _without fully trying to understand her_ we will miss the fact--which the Nobel Committee and the tumblr person didn't ('She is everyone's Cosmic Lover")--that Florence and the Sistene is an avatar of Sophia.


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## Roshan

Sophia (Gnosticism) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Roshan

Florence and the Sistene is this:

http://www.vassar.edu/headlines/2007/images/Sistine-Ceiling.jpg

The _Gnostic _version. Where Wisdom is _the Mother.

_Sophia is_ sx-last.

_But Florence _Welch_ is also _this_:

Brit model Daisy Lowe and Florence Welch kiss for photoshoot! Neat! - Hollywood Gossip | MovieHotties

She stands naked under a diaphanous angel's dress at the Nobel Peace Prize awards in front of the entire planet, embracing, imploring, accusing, and she is sexless. And yet she is also this. Amazing. Simply amazing.


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## Roshan

Gnosticism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Animal

tresemme said:


> That's cool. I used to listen to Evanescence quite a bit and she does seem like a 6 with a 4 fix. Alanis is 4-8-7. I don't think she has 6 in her as a fix, which would've made her triple reactive. There's a lot of "positive" in her.





Roshan said:


> @_Animal_, you wrote in the quoted part that Florence has actual 9 issues...Freudian slip? sp/soc issues could be what you were thinking...(Edit: Actually, no, I think I missed a post and you meant the 9 in her tritype so my point is the sp/soc magnifies that).
> 
> Regarding Alanis, to attempt to type her (4-7-8) without taking into account the stacking issues would render this entire thread pointless. Since it's my thread, I believe I have the right to request that people read all the posts and watch the videos of whatever person they want to participate in the discussion about, most especially focusing on stacking issues.
> 
> If Alanis is an soc/sp, then 4-6-9 makes perfect sense and 4-7-8 makes no sense. The thread is about how stacking and type interrelate. No stack = no type.


I agree that stack is essential. But also, in songwriters who have a few albums out, a lot of songs available - I do find hints of the "issues" that pertain to the other fixes in their tritype. Issues, attitudes, outlooks. Of course the whole tritype has to fit with the stack, but either way...

.. there are no 7 or 8 "issues" with Alanis. The only options I can see for her tritype are 4 with strong 6 fix and 1 fix, or 4 with strong 6 fix and 9 fix.

4-6-1 or 4-6-9. 

So/Sp does seem to make sense. In fact - it's essential. She really can't be any type other than So/Sp, given her energy, the content of her songs, etc. That one scene in a video I posted last night, where she has a poster on the wall that says "Save the world" and then it changes to "Save the heart" ... ugh, it was so social first it killed me! I mean, I have written similar things in a song, with the sentiment of "I'm out pursuing my career and leaving my lover behind - is it really worth it?" so it doesn't HAVE to be social, I guess, but fitting with her whole picture, it's like her real obsession is social and then being the 4 that she is, she remembers her own heart needs to be healed first before she can save the world.

That song "Thank you" which @_Roshan_ posted is so social-first it kills. That is the beauty and essence of Social-first.

Ironic, her hit song, is about different instances in the world, singing, "its like rain on YOUR wedding day" - as if there's unity between everyone, WE ALL SHARE these experiences. No 4 will pose herself as every-woman in that sense unless she's social first. Hell , even a sexual 6 would not do this.

But regardless of her clear and obvious Social stacking and how obvious the Sp secondary is , in her interviews, posture, etc.... she also sings about things that are reminiscent of 6. It's not just the so/sp thing... also how she contradicts herself, thinks about her feelings... I forgot the specifics but I could probably dredge them up in the thread. There were some issues she touched on in her songs which were decidedly sixish, not just that it FELT sixish, like impressionistically. I do think she's a 4, but I also notice that in good songwriters their tritype can show too. Of course in the best songwriters they hit universal themes, but still, elements of the tritype will show when they get more personal. I went through a phase of focusing only on core and feeling like tritype was excessive, but then I started noticing this in people's lyrics as well as my own, and it was so explicit in that context that I decided that indeed, it is an essential component of a person's typing, though of course core and stack are the meat of it.


----------



## Animal

I am in full agreement on Florence's tritype - 7w8-9w1-4w3 Sp/So . I may comment on this more later. Her energy feels more 'gut' and grounded than the 7w6s, and to have that strong gut energy plus the obvious 9 fix? I don't know. Feels like it has to be wing 8.


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## Roshan

FLORENCE + THE MACHINE LYRICS - Dog Days Are Over

The dog days are over
The dog days are done
The horses are coming
So you better run

Run fast for your mother, run fast for your father
Run for your children and your sisters and brothers
Leave all your love and your loving behind you
Can't carry it with you if you want to survive

What does it mean to leave your love and longing behind and yet run for your family, for home, if you want to survive? Wouldn't that mean a purer kind of love, a love infused with wisdom, rather than longing? A love of Origin? In Gnostiscism our Origin is the stars. What are the horses? Are they the Horsemen of the Apocalypse? What is this woman doing jumping around in an angel's costume cum gym suit making everyone at Glastonbury do calisthenics? Don't be fooled into thinking she's just making gestures when she does those hand things. She's transmitting energy.


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## Roshan

@_Animal_,

And Florence not wanting to be a public figure, wanting to be seen as a musician only and not as a an individual, a _personality_ in the public eye points strongly away from soc/sp, which strives to lead the herd. Soc/sp must be in the public eye.

At least in a 7. A triple withdrawn soc/sp or some similar combination could want to sit quietly and write books and get them published under a pseudonym, but an soc/sp 7?


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## Roshan

The late, great Freddy Mercury was most likely a 7w6 who was able to become fully embodied and grounded in a way that could seem very like 7w8. But he was clearly sx/soc, and Florence clearly is not. Queen's Live Aid concert is considered by many critics to be the greatest rock performance ever and/or Freddy the greatest live rock performer ever.






His main themes remained on the 6 side of 7. The world was his _community. _Very explicitly so and he wanted that to be very clear. He was a true cultural revolutionary (I could go on about him if anyone wants me to). Florence didn't even want to be a public figure, yet she organically has a diva quality (7w8) side (when she's not transmuted into pure angelic essence), whereas no matter how big Freddy's embodiment became, there was something soft and very attachment to him. Here's the community part.


----------



## Roshan

https://www.google.com/search?q=fre...=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#tbm=isch&q=freddie+mercury+young

He got a lot bigger and 8ier (more sx/soc) as he got older. His young performances and interviews were pretty clearly 7w6 and could have easily seemed soc/sx were it not for those piercing, blazing eyes...

https://www.google.com/search?q=freddie+mercury+young&biw=1309&bih=632&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=eYFWVL2jOrHLsASr44HQAw&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

On the other hand, Florence...

https://www.google.com/search?q=flo..._GsQTW9ILwDQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1309&bih=632

Organically embodied. But reluctant to be in the public eye.

Yet once she stepped into it, it took her precious little time to become organically comfortable with being a diva. (7w8/4w3), as she herself states. Extreme conflict between type and stack, not too difficult to resolve, though, on a personal level, once things fell into place. She quickly became comfortable with her role. But not with _being interviewed.

_Alanis, on the other other hand, delights in showing interviewers her high school poems and scrapbooks and _displaying herself in a big way_ in interviews. Very soc/sp, being she's a 4. She would make a _very good_ Bishop, except she would have to stop talking about herself.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ala...a=X&ei=uYRWVPOKMZXasASOk4HwBg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw

https://www.google.com/search?q=fem...a=X&ei=BYVWVKGBIPiBsQS-qILwBA&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

ps @_Animal_ , I don't think Alanis has a 1 fix. I think her gut fix is 9w8 and the 1 you're seeing is the soc/sp. I think she's a triple doubt 4-6-9 and that's why some of her lyrics are so much about "Now I feel human. I don't like it. But I like it. Or do I? Should I like it?". There is often a quality of "Is it okay, what I say?" in her lyrics but it doesn't seem 1ishly superego driven; it seems self-doubt driven. And in any case, 1-4-6 is a triple critical tritype (along with 1-4-5), and that Alanis and her high school poem interviews are not.

See, if you give Alanis a 1 fix, you have something close to a rearranged version of me. Especially as soc/sp and sx/soc have so much in common on the 'lead the herd' side of things and Type 4-leading is so like sx-first. But Alanis and I are worlds apart.


----------



## 0+n*1

I'm not good as you enneatyping but I can learn and I want to try as you posting things about Beth Gibbons:
Here's an interview, which is weird for her because she doesn't like interviews. It's only audio.





Highlights of the interview (for me):
+Difficulty to express herself throughout all the interview. He expresses herself better with her songs.
+"Who wants to hear me talk? I'm boring as fuck" 0:46 - 0:58
+"I've always felt misunderstood", hesitation and then "not misunderstood, slightly misunderstood" 1:19 - 1:43
+Concern about the perception of others of her, she wants to be seen as she is.
+The moment in 2:53 - 3:03 (Hilarious!)
+Feeling atmospheres (4:03 - 4:17). She liked the atmosphere of San Francisco ("relatively nice atmosphere") and New York. She enjoys others' company, warm atmospheres (Bristol, where she grew up, feels like a faded old harbor town, but she likes it because "it's relatively relaxed and people are relatively friendly") 4:30 - 5:14
+The "I don't know" moment in 5:17 - 5:25, the interviewer says that he hates to ask her if there's a Bristol scene and he guesses he must do it and I think it's because she doesn't her music labeled and labels in general.
+She doesn't go out a lot





Highlights of the interview (for me):
+Difficulty to express herself throughout all the interview. A "heavy part of thinking" as the interviewer said. Over-analytical.
+"I don't really have taken that much news (?) of what goes visually with Portishead" 0:42 - 1:07
+Her beliefs about God, general agnosticism and even ignosticism, believes God is just the name we give to our conscience. "I don't know (how to/if I) believe in God" (1:15 - 1:50).
+"People don't know how to live anymore" because of lack of belief or faith, "they suffer from paranoia o feel unloved, all those things everybody goes through". (2:05 - 2:59). He works (in her music) to solve this problem.
+Again, she expresses herself better writting a song. "If I can't get across what I'm trying to say to you, I might get it across better if I went home and wrote a song about it" (3:29 - 4:09). Music is the outlet, it's the way to express oneself.
+The two previous points point to her using music not only to express herself because that's her only way but also to help her "solve the problem" of feeling lonely, "paranoia or feel(ing) unloved".





Highlights of the interview (for me):
+Difficulty to express herself throughout all the interview.
+Everything just falls into place with her music (2:37 - 3:26)
+"Do you think about life?", she responds "Yes, I do, who doesn't?", "I would be too presumptuous, too judgemental to assume 2/3 of the population (don't think about life)" (3:26 - 4:35) (personal note: this clicks a lot with me, it's one of the biggest messages I try to get across to others)





Highlights of the interview (for me):
+Difficulty to express herself throughout all the interview.
+About playing live (0:20 - 2:04).
+"I don't know" was abused in this part of the interview. Throughout all the interview you can see a lot of rumination but this takes the cake.
+I notice now that she tends to think in a very "everybody" pattern or at least "not just me" pattern. She doesn't know everybody. She doesn't assume. She supposes others feel that way, others think that way. A feel of "I'm not special". Maybe this is just me and it must be me to some extent because I am the one analysing this stuff, but I get a feel of exploring humanity, what makes a human. She talks about her feelings but she has that human awareness, that bigger picture in mind. Does this make sense?
+Talking about not having the pressure of releasing a better album each time. She thinks ("I argue your point probably") that the ideal is to release something good and then something different but still good, which she thinks is rare in music, specially now. She just doesn't want to be bored. She doesn't care if her album is number 1 or whatever, even if she does like that people like her music, but it's not her priority. She prefers variety. She doesn't want to one-up herself that much, she mainly cares if she likes it and if it doesn't bore her. (5:01 - 7:18)





Highlights of the interview (for me):
+Difficulty to express herself throughout all the interview.
+About books, "I like them when they give me a new perspective", "not the old english stuff", "I am not academic at all" (0:48 - 1:33)
+Talks about getting used to things and adapting, it takes time to understand the way things work, settling down is a long process, "If I were to start again, I would be doing this when I am 60". (2:04 - 2:55)

...


----------



## tresemme

Roshan said:


> @_
> See, @tresemme, this post was to you. Your original post I was replying to didn't quote here, but unless I missed something, you never answered this.
> 
> The eidb boardies I most respect in the discussion on Flo that I originally linked had Florence as a 7, except for Sunny, who stuck with the RH typing of 4. She posted the very withdrawn interviews to back that up, and I explained that for all Florence's hoopla performing, I was going to agree with Sunny. From there we started moving to 5. You're the person on this thread who said she's a 7 and you were right, she is. But the 7 without the right stacking neither does Florence justice nor moves knowledge of the Enneagram forward in any way. (I paraphrase myself from one of my subsequent posts on this thread).
> 
> So, again, I want the casual input, it's important--but as casual input acknowledged as such. As in "just passing through". Not as in "this is the definitive statement and here's why." (Alanis has no 6 because this, this, and this, as if there were no such thing as a stacking).
> 
> tbc, you said Florence was ALL glitter and posing very shortly after I posted the above video. And well...no, she's not. Under the video above I posted videos of Ian Curtis from Joy Division to show the commonalities in affect, physical movements, and themes.
> 
> So what I want is people who are either just passing through and they know it and they say so or people who are in.
> 
> I still think 5wX with almost any stacking is actually a better typing of Florence than garden variety 7 with no stacking. Or no plausible one with an attempt at understanding her. And things like your claiming she's ALL sprinkled with glitter and poses is the reason why.
> 
> btw, did you ever watch her interview with Katy Perry?_


_

The comment I made was a response to someone who thought her lyrics were bleak. I was pointing at her choice of aesthetic and her tendency to dress up the content. And what I said does not take away from how moving and heartfelt her performances are. That video you posted, as well as the image searches of her, give me the impression of "glitter." She also has a refined quality, and striking poses, which points to 3/4-fix. I think the person I responded to sited some stuff that she felt was 4w5 in quality. Let me go back to it.



sittapygmaea said:



I also think her lyrics are very bleak. In the most schematic rendering, the majority of the songs can be characterized in the following way: 'something bad happened earlier, and more bad things will happen in the future. You may think you can get away, but you can’t. Even the things that bring you up will take you down (though going down can be its own success).' Even songs that seem like fairly upbeat, romantic larks, like cosmic love and drumming song, are quite dark. I read them both as focussing on how love, even when requited, is a kind of terrible, self-annihilating state. So you can’t win without losing or lose without winning.

Click to expand...

This right here sounds 7-ish. What this has in common with type 4 is frustration. The focus on the future, trying to get away, things that bring you up, are all 7. Realization of the futility of it all is the line to 5. It's in how it's presented, and the focus._


----------



## Roshan

tresemme said:


> The comment I made was a response to someone who thought her lyrics were bleak. I was pointing at her choice of aesthetic and her tendency to dress up the content. And what I said does not take away from how moving and heartfelt her performances are. That video you posted, as well as the image searches of her, give me the impression of "glitter." She also has a refined quality, and striking poses, which points to 3/4-fix. I think the person I responded to sited some stuff that she felt was 4w5 in quality. Let me go back to it.
> 
> 
> 
> This right here sounds 7-ish. What this has in common with type 4 is frustration. The focus on the future, trying to get away, things that bring you up, are all 7. Realization of the futility of it all is the line to 5. It's in how it's presented, and the focus.


 @_tresemme_,

I get your point. Mea culpa. It was all in the context. 

There's no question that Florence is a 7. It's beyond doubt. The problem I had with the original eidb thread was that they didn't look any deeper to see what kind of 7 she was. This left me feeling she's not a 7. And in a sense she isn't because she's really a 7 at 5 and 1 with an intense conflict between main type and stacking.

At this point the only way I could see anyone who's been following the discussion not seeing that she's a 7 would be if they didn't want to for some reason. At the same time I'm really glad Sunny stuck with Riso Hudson's 4 typing of her because it forced me to think about what was so non-Sevenish about her.

That's all well and good with Sunny, who's a nurse, but Riso and Hudson and other professionals should not have been typing Florence as a 4 because she's "creative" and "intense" and when she takes off the glitter she can sing things that will pierce your heart to the core.

And the moral of the story is that we posters on these sites really need each other to figure out what's going on because we can't trust the pros to type anyone. So we have to look at the same materials (videos, articles, even books) carefully and discuss them together within the common framework, and include the stack and full tritype when it's about someone who for whatever reason seems to be important.


----------



## Roshan

And if Florence is a healthy 7 (at 5 and integrating the "missing piece" at 1), approaching Type 7, Level 1, The Ecstatic Appreciator--and she would certainly appear to be a good candidate for that in the last video of her that I posted....

(but, and this to Russ Hudson telepathically-yes, I'm kidding--and the ghost of Don--maybe not kidding so much), it's not just an Ecstatic Appreciator. It's an Ecstatically Sober Appreciator with Wisdom....)

then that would mean the stacks are also integrated/integrating. Meaning an sp/soc with soc/sx fully integrated, and sx/sp integrating. Which means everything is available and Flo is no longer subject to being on one side of the "flow chart". She's neither "flow" (just one of us) nor "counter-flow" (going against the current of humanity). So she's an sp/soc who functions very well in the role of an soc/sp, as is so very clear at the Nobel Peace Prize concert where she is literally embodying and transmitting Sophia.

That's the quantum leap. When you're integrating at the upper levels of health, you not only embrace the movement of the points in the core dynamics (here 5 <-7->1; sloppily known as integration/disintegration points respectively); you also readily embrace both sides of the "flo-jo chart" when necessary, as things "show up" in your life.

@_enneasite.com

_http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=26332#.VFaPbvSOS5I

At least that's where I stand right now. And unless someone who knows a lot about these things would like to try to steer me in a different direction with an open mind, that's probably where I'll be with Flo for a while.


----------



## Roshan

@_0+n*1_,

Am done posting here for today so I can get other stuff done. But I'll look at Beth Gibbons soon. One thing I can say just skimming your post though is that she's likely either a triple withdrawn, 4-5-9 (don't know the order) or 4-6w5-9. Most likely wings are 4w5 and 9w1. If 5-fix could be either wing. Extreme withdrawn is extreme withdrawn.


----------



## Animal

Yes I have to get things done soon but I'll look into Beth Gibbons. I've listened to Portishead a lot in the past and the lyrics never struck me as 4, but I will revisit the interviews and lyrics with an open mind.


----------



## Roshan

Animal said:


> Forgive me @_Roshan_ for barely participating but I know more about Reeve than I can write here. >=]
> 
> But he does seem positive outlook. I was thinking (image core) - 7w6 - 9w1, or 7 core. Not 9 core for sure. But social first had not crossed my mind.. I am curious about that one.  He always sings about lovers etc.. not social issues or "the whole world."
> 
> I have mulled over 2 and 3 core as possibilities. 4 was sort of a passing thought. he is too "positive" and sure of himself.. not 4 "exile" ish.. it wouldn't really make sense. But he has some more darkness to him in person. 7w6s can have their own brand of darkness.. comes with the 6 wing mayhap.


More on him to come. It was just a preliminary typing, as I said.

Well, I'm off the air.


----------



## Animal

Roshan said:


> More on him to come. It was just a preliminary typing, as I said.
> 
> Well, I'm off the air.


Yeah I'll find better material too. I've followed his career for a while.


----------



## Roshan

The Scorched Earth said:


> What are some key characteristics of a type 4 artist?


A Type 4 artist has a fundamental Existential problem around identity and embodiment. A Type 4 conveys in some sense a feeling of being lost in the world and more importantly a feeling of_ not wanting to be completely found._ A Type 4 artist has in some way a direct line between the expressive content and the aesthetics of the art that is unmediated by intellect, although they are the 'head' of the heart types. It is somehow clean, it doesn't meander. A Type 4 artist seeks some kind of perfection in their art (although it may manifest in some cases as an anti-perfection). This is the line to One that is always in the 4 whenever they create. It involves some concept of beauty. A Type 4 artist, especially when young, needs to do their art to maintain a sense of self and considers their artistic creation to be a kind of sacred space. They won't deprecate it. A Type 4 artist will be at least sometimes, though by no means always, quite dark (though some are that too). A Type 4 artist will often, though by no means always, convey a sense that "over there is better than over here" (and this is what "envy" and "melancholy" really refer to). A Type 4 artist will want to be seen as completely unique in some way and because of this as writers they will be the ultimate champion of the individual. Because every individual's story matters. Every character they choose to portray is sacred because they have chosen them. This is why Tennessee Williams is the greatest American playwright and Carson McCullers one of the greatest, and unfortunately less remembered, novelists. (I grew up reading them both as a teenager). A Type 4 artist accepts the fact that life is fundamentally tragic because we are born to die and wants to make something that will transcend that.

(But Miss Born To Die del Rey is an sp/sx 2w3 @ sx/soc 4. :tongue: ).


----------



## Roshan

I think that in the mature 4 artist, or just mature 4 person, what is meant by "authenticy"--the authenticity that they themselves will tell you they strive for and that E-folks use to describe their search--is that while they will take joy in being part of the universal whole, they will never give up the fundamental truth that it is sad that time passes and that we die. They will never sell out in that way. No, they don't have to be "tragic romantics" but if they had to choose between Euripedes and the Buddha they would choose Euripedes, because _on the human level_ he's truer. 

Fours and Sevens are both experience junkies, but Fours are experience junkies of their feelings. Even when they become "clean" and other-oriented (at One and Two), their refusal to whitewash the fundamental tragedy of the human condition is the true Ecstatic Appreciation (which is ascribed to the Healthy Seven). To appreciate and somehow express the human tragedy is the greatest way to give life back the dignity it deserves. 

imho.


----------



## Roshan

The two stackings that tend to make the least typical Fours are sp/sx and soc/sp. Soc/sx may amplify the 4 even more than sx first because shame issues are amplified. Antony Hegarty made this video with clips from his sister's film. I don't know if she's a 4 (didn't find interviews), though she certainly appears to be. In any case, she was definitely influenced by him, or rather they influenced each other, and she is definitely 4-fixed. This is the 4est recent thing I've seen. (We don't live in very 4ish times... ). Antony--4w5-9w8-6w7 soc/sx. "Triple doubt" tritype also amplifies the 4, as does the 5 wing. Obviously not all 4 artists do things like this but you will find _something of it somehow_ in every 4.


----------



## Roshan

Ooh I'm living
It's a golden thing
It means everything

I'm gifted
By your grace
It's the Swanlights
In the water
On that shining face

Ooh it's such a mystery to me
Ooh it's such a mystery to me

What I have seen
Faces in my dreams
Ooh the Swanlights
The Swanlights

When I close my eyes
And dream Swans come
When in love I lean
On the Swanlight song

Ooh it's such a mystery to me
Ooh it's such a mystery to me

I'm dancing with their necks
Dancing neck to neck


----------



## Roshan

Four is the energy that sees lights in the dark.

***

If they have to, they will go there to look for them. That's why, especially being she ain't sp/sx and she ain't soc/sp, I know from that interview that Fiona Apple's not a Four.


----------



## The Scorched Earth

Cool. How about the Sexual 4?


----------



## Roshan

Animal said:


> She has the love/hate thing down pat..
> 
> 
> The whole bloody image..



Yep, Image down pat.











Seems like a 3w2-7w6-9wX Party Girl Goddess to me.

Sx/soc being the 4ishly 8ish stacking....

assuming she is that...


----------



## Animal

@_Roshan_

point taken. I stupidly didnt check any of the interviews and just responded to the songs. She's totally different in the interviews. I guess that would be a 3 Then if shes so peppy when talking to people.
damn. I found her songs that day and got so excited ;x

oh the second interview ... "Butterflies and unicorns, it doesn't mean anything" etc
actually i know an sx/so 3w2 just like her, she is exactly like that in the interviews but in her art shes naked and feral and covered in blood. I'll send you her website you might get a kick out of her, 

i loved your 4 musician descriptions btw.. Wow.. More to say when i can, my computer broke and i am posting from difficult devices.


----------



## Roshan

The Grounded Ethereal and The Hole In The Bottom of the E. (9w1-4/5 line). Thank you, youtube.






Give the vid time. They will both rematerialize and then dissolve back into the fullness of the Void.

_"*The Dull Flame of Desire*" is a song recorded by Icelandic singer Björk featuring Antony Hegarty from the band Antony and the Johnsons. The track was released as the fifth and final single from her seventh full-length studio album, Volta, on 29 September 2008.[SUP][1][/SUP] Björk has performed the song 12 times on her global Volta Tour, often with Antony Hegarty onstage.[SUP][2][/SUP] The lyrics to the song are an English translation of a Russian poem by Fyodor Tyutchev, as it appears in the Andrei Tarkovsky film, Stalker._--wiki

Gee, I wonder whose idea the drums were?


----------



## Roshan

Tarkovsky 5w4 sp/sx

https://www.google.com/search?q=tar...=yHRsVIqmGsiUNofzgsAI&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg&dpr=0.9

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalker_%281979_film%29


----------



## Roshan

_The *Trimūrti* (English: ‘three forms’; Sanskrit: त्रिमूर्तिः trimūrti), Tri Murati or Trimurati, is a concept in Hinduism "in which the cosmic functions of creation, maintenance, and destruction are personified by the forms of Brahma the creator, Vishnu the maintainer or preserver and Shiva the destroyer or transformer."[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP] These three gods have been called "the Hindu triad"[SUP][3][/SUP] or the "Great Trinity",[SUP][4][/SUP] often addressed as "Brahma-Vishnu-Maheshwara." They are different forms of the One person called the Supreme Being or Svayam Bhagavan/Lord Krishna/Parabrahman._--wiki

3, 7, 8 Assertive, the Creator
1, 2, 6 Compliant, the Preserver, The Maintainer
4, 5, 9 Withdrawn, the Destroyer but also The _*Transformer *_and the* Dissolver.*


----------



## Roshan

I want to thank everyone who's participated on or followed this thread. It acquired a depth of meaning which I never could have anticipated. This began for me with the discussion of Florence Welch (which begins on p. 19 and weaves in and out throughout the thread, for those interested in reading it). In the end the eidb heavies were right; Florence is a 7. But the issue, what matters, isn't that she's a 7 but what kind of 7 she is and how her life and work embody a transmission, if you will, that sheds light on what is often thought of as "the spiritual dimension of the Enneagram". And this "spiritual dimension" for any individual is inseparable from the shared fate of our species, which alone is half animal/half angel, because we have instinct, heart, and mind.

For personal reasons I won't be able to post anything until the new year but please feel free to contact me through the site. Also feel free to continue the thread.

As I've mentioned on a thread here about Blixa Bargeld, red, gold and black are the colors of the German flag and they also represent alchemical processes of transmutation, as does the E.

Thanks to all again and have wonderful holidays with many colors.

* * *

Einsturzende Neubauten (Collapsing New Buildings), "Sabrina", from the album "Silence Is Sexy".







ps and ftr i didn't link anything here other than the vid but it seems there may be a small glitch...


----------



## Golden Rose

Is Shirley Manson an ENFP sx 4? I've had a massive crush on her ever since I was a tween.


----------



## sodden

Roshan said:


> Tarkovsky 5w4 sp/sx


Tarkovsky is as 4w5 as all get out. The Mirror, primarily autobiographical, is an especially good example (vs Stalker which has a screenplay written by other people).






And this short film about Solaris does a beautiful job of expressing how his approach to science fiction is more 4 than 5 (another film he co-wrote):







I think it's helpful to compare his work to Lars von Trier and Kubrick, both fives. With them I feel a disconnect/ detachment from humanity that is at the core of fiveness. They are either observers or torturers (in the way that fives can be with their line to 8). Tarkovsky's films are about being human, and he is deeply enmeshed in them. I watch his work and I feel like he is exposing something deep within himself- extremely self referential in material that doesn't need to be.

I do agree with you on sp/sx.


----------



## sleeper

@0+n*1
I would say Beth Gibbons is of the 469 tritype. Uncertainty is a recurring theme in her lyrics and she voices this pretty explicitly in "Threads" and "Over". She is always seeking something in her lyrics and her longing comes across as she sings them. I think the best guess for her enneagram type is 4w5. "Through the glory of life, I will scatter on the floor, disappointed and sore" ("The Rip"). Identity and being authentic seem of central concern to her in reading different interviews and she doesn't attempt to impress us with an idealized or intriguing image or persona as many 4w3 musicians do. In her live interview, it is hard to hear her speak because she is so painfully self-conscious and uncomfortable with being interviewed. I think the following quote is also good evidence that she is a Four, even if you have never heard her sing:



> “People think it must feel great when everybody loves you all of a sudden, and it does,” Gibbons admits, “but there are other sides to it. I don’t feel like this now, but at one stage I was thinking you write songs and you hope you’re gonna communicate with people – half the reason you write them is that you’re feeling misunderstood and frustrated with life in general. Then it’s sort of successful and you think you’ve communicated with people, but then you realise you haven’t communicated with them at all – you’ve turned the whole thing into a product, so then you’re even more lonely than when you started.”


It also seems pretty clear to me that she is sp/sx. Most of her lyrics explore suffering, possession, isolation, the numbing pain from the impossibilities of or inability to connect with others, sensuality and vulnerability. I have a 6- and 9-fixed sp/sx 4w5 friend who often explores these feelings and ideas as well. I am also reminded of Marguerite Duras in this way, especially in the dark, forbidden depiction of sensuality, as in "Biscuit", "Humming", "Undenied". Beth doesn't have the open quality of a sx-first, and in her only live interview, she seems to want to dispel any mysterious aura surrounding her. And her motivation in doing that is probably related to this:


> "You don’t want to make an aura round anyone,” his singer had explained, “because it’s just not fair on that person. It’s unfair and unrealistic and it makes the audience stupid. It only happens out of ignorance and because the media wants things that way; and I think the audience should be told that it’s not like that."


 At one point, she does call herself boring and in general is more removed and oppositional than a going-towards sx/sp or syn-flow type. Her lyrics are also more cryptic and thematic than open and revealing "this is me actually" like sx-first 4's often do. Her voice is very expressive, but in her lyrics, her pain is expressed in a sp/sx 4 manner: long-suffering, this is all I've ever known - this is just how it is. She's in hell and pretty used to it. An sx/sp I imagine going back and forth from feeling resigned to "Get me out" "Set me free" "I am dying" "I don't want to be here."








> "Please could you stay awhile to share my grief
> For its such a lovely day
> To have to always feel this way
> And the time that I will suffer less
> Is when I never have to wake
> 
> Wandering stars, for whom it is reserved
> The blackness of darkness forever
> Wandering stars, for whom it is reserved
> The blackness of darkness forever"


----------



## 0+n*1

sleeper said:


> @_0+n*1_
> I would say Beth Gibbons is of the 469 tritype. Uncertainty is a recurring theme in her lyrics and she voices this pretty explicitly in "Threads" and "Over". She is always seeking something in her lyrics and her longing comes across as she sings them. I think the best guess for her enneagram type is 4w5. "Through the glory of life, I will scatter on the floor, disappointed and sore" ("The Rip"). Identity and being authentic seem of central concern to her in reading different interviews and she doesn't attempt to impress us with an idealized or intriguing image or persona as many 4w3 musicians do. In her live interview, it is hard to hear her speak because she is so painfully self-conscious and uncomfortable with being interviewed. I think the following quote is also good evidence that she is a Four, even if you have never heard her sing:
> 
> 
> 
> It also seems pretty clear to me that she is sp/sx. Most of her lyrics explore suffering, possession, isolation, the numbing pain from the impossibilities of or inability to connect with others, sensuality and vulnerability. I have a 6- and 9-fixed sp/sx 4w5 friend who often explores these feelings and ideas as well. I am also reminded of Marguerite Duras in this way, especially in the dark, forbidden depiction of sensuality, as in "Biscuit", "Humming", "Undenied". Beth doesn't have the open quality of a sx-first, and in her only live interview, she seems to want to dispel any mysterious aura surrounding her. And her motivation in doing that is probably related to this: At one point, she does call herself boring and in general is more removed and oppositional than a going-towards sx/sp or syn-flow type. Her lyrics are also more cryptic and thematic than open and revealing "this is me actually" like sx-first 4's often do. Her voice is very expressive, but in her lyrics, her pain is expressed in a sp/sx 4 manner: long-suffering, this is all I've ever known - this is just how it is. She's in hell and pretty used to it.


I agree with your typing. I considered 6-core only because she's plagued with self-doubt, but that's not 6 in essence. The other option was 4w5. I don't remember if I typed her as 4w3 when I brought her up, but if I did, I was wrong. I also think she's sp. I wasn't sure which one because she describes herself as very ordinary, singing about things we all have felt at least once in our lifes and she had a very human self-perception, but being double relating could do the trick. I also considered 459 because she's very withdrawn, but the doubt was obvious to me (like in Threads and Over, as you said), so my first option was 469.


----------



## Saldron

sodden said:


> Tarkovsky is as 4w5 as all get out. The Mirror, primarily autobiographical, is an especially good example (vs Stalker which has a screenplay written by other people).
> 
> And this short film about Solaris does a beautiful job of expressing how his approach to science fiction is more 4 than 5 (another film he co-wrote):
> 
> I think it's helpful to compare his work to Lars von Trier and Kubrick, both fives. With them I feel a disconnect/ detachment from humanity that is at the core of fiveness. They are either observers or torturers (in the way that fives can be with their line to 8). Tarkovsky's films are about being human, and he is deeply enmeshed in them. I watch his work and I feel like he is exposing something deep within himself- extremely self referential in material that doesn't need to be.
> 
> I do agree with you on sp/sx.


Yeah, I agree Tarkovsky is 4w5. Other than 5w4, which then again is most definitely in his tritype, I would doubt more whether he was 1. After reading some interviews, he seems extremely concerned with morality in his films. In that aspect I don't really relate to him at all... In fact, he said something about 2001 like he didn't like it because it didn't have morals, that art should always have morals to it for him to consider it art... I think that's depressing, taking things that seriously. Of course he didn't meant 'morals' as we usually see in commercial films, his 'morals' I think was something like he wanted every film to make people question his life and ask existential questions to themselves, well, 2001 makes me ask existential questions, but he meant films should always be more relatable and emotional I think, he didn't like sci fi just to play around with ideas. This also does makes sense with the 4, though. Considering he's most likely an INFJ

He had a very clear opinion on how things should be and everything else was 'wrong' or something. 
I also read his arguments with Stanislaw Lem, a writer I really like - I'm now reading SOlaris -, and I usually completely agree with Lem (INTP 5w6 probably), except the fact that he didn't like the movie and didn't understand cinema, in tha regard I agree with Tarkovsky - and I loved the film and like it to have changes, as I think literal book adaptations are boring and pointless.
I pretty much connect with everything else I know about Tarkovsky, though, and loved the both films I have seen by him.

About Lars von Trier I dont really relate to him and with all his phobias and the provocation he strikes 6w5 to me. I can't really see the 4 or the 5 tbh. He is also obsessed with Tarkovsky and references him all the time to a tiring level... I don't really love any of his films except maybe dancer in the dark, because of Bjork, but I find him fun as a person/character haha


----------



## Golden Rose

Since this thread got revived, I'll post more Shirley interviews to gauge if my ancient statement was correct.
I've actually been thinking about this thread.















 @Animal


----------



## nichya

Hotaru said:


> Is Shirley Manson an ENFP sx 4? I've had a massive crush on her ever since I was a tween.


Love Shirley! I always thought she has an introvert vibe, especially the songs. I think they are too much in the introverted side to be written by an ENFP but perhaps it is the other guys in the band wrote the songs with her. She gives a thinker vibe on her social media accounts though, and somehow an ESTP wouldn't surprise me thinking they are not your standard extroverts in the common sense. 

I read a lot of INFP and INFJ posts on google for her, hmm. I would love her to be an INFP of course but I think she might be more on the INFJ side with the thinking streak and a few posts reminds me she is like I will be smiling but I will turn into a tiger when you are not looking and knock you off your feet, such a random post of hers but I thought it sounded so much -not- like an INFP. I think I stopped making sense 

I second sx 4 though )


----------



## Golden Rose

nichya said:


> Love Shirley! I always thought she has an introvert vibe, especially the songs. I think they are too much in the introverted side to be written by an ENFP but perhaps it is the other guys in the band wrote the songs with her. She gives a thinker vibe on her social media accounts though, and somehow an ESTP wouldn't surprise me thinking they are not your standard extroverts in the common sense.


I can see her as a Jungian extrovert, in terms of Jungian functions rather than social extroversion, but I see herself as far too abstract and out there to be a Se-dom. I don't usually just type on lyrics but it's something that emerges from her interviews too, to me an ESTP is more someone like Pink whom I adore but she's way more straightforward and direct, her anger is more calm because her presence and attitude alone are dominant and imposing.

Pink is actually a really good example of a legitimate female 8, many seem to think it's more someone like Courtney Love but I feel like 8s don't have to play with an intimidating or enraged persona because they naturally come across that way. The anger of a sexual Four, and now I'm fully accepting it and my dominant instinct, is more like perpetually pissed off and holding it all in, competing in terms of "Why do you have this and I don't? You don't deserve it! Or maybe I'm the one who doesn't? I'll show you."

This song is a perfect example of her intuitive side:






I can also see the Fi and Si "I am lost so I'm cruel but I'd be love and sweetness if I had you." "I am weak but I am strong" subjective values that don't match up with her experience and this person's own behavior. This is the disconnect between the ideal self and what it is that I was discussing with @mimesis in that INFP thread so I could see xNFP, even INFP but that's lots of wishful thinking since I love her so much.




> I read a lot of INFP and INFJ posts on google for her, hmm. I would love her to be an INFP of course but I think she might be more on the INFJ side with the thinking streak and a few posts reminds me she is like I will be smiling but I will turn into a tiger when you are not looking and knock you off your feet, such a random post of hers but I thought it sounded so much -not- like an INFP. I think I stopped making sense
> 
> I second sx 4 though )


To be fair, everyone is an INFJ according to the internet.

I see a lot of Fi in her interviews, from her hard time matching the outward emotions of the interviewer to that forced laugh falling flat and her quietness being broken by sudden Ne flashes, I do a lot of that too. Actually it's kind of a NP thing imo, my INTP did that a lot too and we both tended to puzzle Ni-dom friends because it was a matter of "can't you wrap it up in 4 words?". Plus she seems very unfiltered and yet you can't explicitly tell her emotional depth unless she gets some kind of connection with the interviewer (huge difference between the two) or listen to her songs. Even her anger outburst was something that a Fi-dom/aux does after being pushed to annoyance, Fe users are more catty and subtle, I see an INFJ more like Tori Amos, Tom Yorke, Matthew Bellamy or Emma Watson and those are extremely different kinds of INFJs too... it's a different vibe, they're less candid and more outwardly expressive yet going along with the mood, more gently imposing.

Sx 4w5 though, definitely!


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## Golden Rose

Mizmar said:


> As a probable Nine-fixer myself, I don't think he was much more cynical or disillusioned than I've been at times, especially during my angsty teenage years. The bold part is something I've felt pretty often.


As a very dark and angsty 9-fixer I tend to agree.

I guess I didn't want to believe we shared the same type because he was always my inspiration, with all of his flaws and his messed up life, if anything that made me love him even more as he felt real and genuine.

I'm a much happier guy than a lot of people think I am.

Kurt Cobain as quoted in Rolling Stone (1993-01-27).




> Yeah, I usually see him typed as a social-laster, but he's always struck me as too attentive to social trends for that to be the case. Even in that one quote you share, he seems to feel almost guilty for being isolated from the larger, outer world of people.


Yeah, exactly.

Especially when it comes to Fours, social dominants are never going to be minglers and social butterflies, there's this huge misconception that soc first are people who are overly invested in being part of a group while it's more of an acute focus to social dynamics (even political/activism) whether it's from an outsider, leader or insider perspective. As a social last I'm so uniniterested and socially clueless that I could never see myself say things like:

"Jocks have completely taken over music... And just to get back at them, I’m going to start playing basketball. "

or

"I have to admit I've found myself doing the same things that a lot of other rock stars do or are forced to do. Which is not being able to respond to mail, not being able to keep up on current music, and I'm pretty much locked away a lot. The outside world is pretty foreign to me."

While understanding and agreeing with sentiment, it's just something that escapes me.



> The Sex Pistols guitarist Steve Jones has always struck me as an Eight. Also, the band Pantera has always seemed pretty Eightish to me (unless I'm simply mistaking their Se-ness for Eightish-ness,  ).


Interesting. Love both bands, I'll look up some interviews.


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## vandieu

This was a great thread, lots of information. There are a few people I'm thinking of where it's inconclusive whether they're 4 or not:

Frederic Chopin (Naranjo types him as a sx 5, though 4 is the typical typing)
Vincent van Gogh (4 or 5, definitely sx/so)
W. B. Yeats (4 sp/sx or 5 sx/sp)
Edgar Allan Poe (I see him as a 5, though most type him as 4)
T. E. Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia, 4 is the typical typing but it doesn't fit him entirely)

In addition, Beethoven is an example of an unhealthy sx 4, and William Blake is an example of a healthy sx 4.


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## inabox

Animal said:


> I just made this list in another thread from what I could remember offhandedly. I only included the ones I am certain of, either because you convinced me or because I previously decided. There were many others covered in this thread, so feel free to add them along with tritypes you can think of.
> 
> This is what I wrote over there, inside the spoiler.
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5s.
> Trent Reznor
> Patti Smith & Laurie Anderson (both are often typed at 5 and I agree, but I haven't looked deeply enough to be sure.)



* *








Trent is definitely 5w4-8w9-4w3 sx/sp INTJ-Te . He's kind of House like that way.


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## Animal

inabox said:


> Trent is definitely 5w4-8w9-4w3 sx/sp INTJ-Te . He's kind of House like that way.


1w9 fix! I agree with the rest though


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