# Can we please stop infantilizing grown women?



## Alcoholic_Wannabe (Dec 3, 2021)

Pleeeeeeeaaaaase? With fake brown-nosing on top?

You all have the most beautiful eyes 👁👁
Now cut the shit.

The ease at which someone can get called a "craddle-snatcher" right now, ya know? It's enough to make a man want to go commit a dozen felonies in a single afternoon.

Shit, even if you're 28 and the woman is 22 Oh OBVIOUSLY you're taking advantage of her non-existent innocence. You monster.

What's this gonna lead to eventually, huh? Are we eventually gonna be shot on sight for being seen eating with a woman under 30 years old? Oh I can see it now..

"A 29 year old, really? What's next, an 8 year old??"

The nonsense people will come up with to justify this thought process.. I can't even begin to imagine. I don't know, I'm not an xNxP type. I can only say that's it's gonna be fantastic in the WORST possible sense.

I'm pretty sure this is all happening because fat, sagging, useless, older feminist types don't like that no man wants to be anywhere near them anymore.. so they're pulling out the "pedophile" card so they can feel better about being undeserving of attention.

That doesn't excuse this growing nonsense. It doesn't mean the rest of you have to fall for it.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

I wouldn't date a 22 year old guy for the same reason--but whatever.

It's also called giving a fuck about another person, beyond just thinking of your own dick. 

Not that women or men who are older than 22 should be subjected to some of the bitter, gross "men" on the dating market. I'm not advocating for that either. 

But I'm also not going to throw 22 year olds under the bus because there are said disgusting, materialistic, selfish people out there who only care about what their dick wants (the fat, saggy, old feminist women don't want you either though--so please don't mistake caring about young people for that).

Also--this isn't a response to anyone I've talked to in the forum who's interested in dating a 22 year old--I know this kind of sentiment isn't some universal man thing.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)




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## Alcoholic_Wannabe (Dec 3, 2021)

WickerDeer said:


> I wouldn't date a 22 year old guy for the same reason--but whatever.
> 
> It's also called giving a fuck about another person, beyond just thinking of your own dick.
> 
> ...


First of all, what's "the same reason?" You're not honestly insinuating that women dating younger have the same problem. That would be ridiculous.

What would people do? Give you "dirty looks?"

Second of all, pretty much the entire rest of your response hinges on the idea that you shouldn't be responsible for yourself by adulthood. You should be. You made an ATTEMPT to pay lip-service to that, but if you really understood that fact your reply would just be "I agree" and that would have been IT.



WickerDeer said:


>


And this is just pseudo-intellectual whatever. 

"The brain stops developing here."
"Multiple personality disorder exists."

Same jargon. If you're old enough to know better, you're old enough to know better. I couldn't care less what stage your brain is at.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Alcoholic_Wannabe said:


> First of all, what's "the same reason?" You're not honestly insinuating that women dating younger have the same problem. That would be ridiculous.
> 
> What would people do? Give you "dirty looks?"
> 
> ...


lol 

It is far more socially unacceptable for a woman to date younger than for a man to. That is going to solicit more dirty looks and gossip anyway. 

But yeah--it's the same to me. I really value young people, and I also know (to the degree I am capable) what I want. I would feel unfair to ask someone who was not yet physically mature in their brain to have the level of conviction that I would expect a person above 25 to have.

I feel it's unreasonable for me to impose myself on someone like that. Relationships feature demands. I am not going to demand something unfairly, from someone who's brain hasn't finished developing.

I'm not interested in your opinion. Some people will never "be old enough" to know better anyway.

No--I think I should be responsible for myself in adulthood, which is why I (as an adult) choose not to date people under the age of 25.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Besides--I value honesty and trustworthiness.

I don't want some poor 22 year old guy who thinks I'm mature to have that be a reason he's interested. I am one of the least mature people in the late 30s. But he's not necessarily going to know that because his brain's not even developed all the way. 

I would rather he actually know what "maturity" is in older people--something I don't think he will know when he's 22. I'm not into tricking people--I'm not some PUA who only cares about what I get out of other people.

(also I'm purposefully trying to be harsh--it's nothing personal, but I don't think it's bad to consider the ethics of things like this.)

I am not saying anyone who dates or is attracted to someone under 25 is a pedophile--I'm just saying that people under 25 don't have developed brains and they might see you differently in a few years. So maybe try to hold yourself to responsible standards, regardless.


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## Alcoholic_Wannabe (Dec 3, 2021)

WickerDeer said:


> lol
> 
> It is far more socially unacceptable for a woman to date younger than for a man to. That is going to solicit more dirty looks and gossip anyway.
> 
> ...


Yeah.. you get dirty looks.. we get stabbed. See where you might be whinging just a little bit?

And yeah I don't care about yours either.. or that of any random fuckass in a lab coat. Babying people under 30 (or 25, as you specify) is just asinine. Doing it with science is just doing asinine shit with science as your excuse. 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## Alcoholic_Wannabe (Dec 3, 2021)

WickerDeer said:


> Besides--I value honesty and trustworthiness.
> 
> I don't want some poor 22 year old guy who thinks I'm mature to have that be a reason he's interested. I am one of the least mature people in the late 30s. But he's not necessarily going to know that because his brain's not even developed all the way.
> 
> ...


Idk about any of this. My views on most things haven't changed a bit since I was a child. I'm 24 now and I don't foresee anything changing later. I act differently but that's it.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Alcoholic_Wannabe said:


> Idk about any of this. My views on most things haven't changed a bit since I was a child. I'm 24 now and I don't foresee anything changing later. I act differently but that's it.


Well it sounds like your brain's probably almost fully developed--I hope you are consuming the right nutrition for it right now, because it's kind of a big deal for the rest of your life.

You wouldn't be the first young person to think they knew everything (I am partly joking--young people do get a lot of crap and that's not my purpose). 

Btw--most men who date women under the age of 25 don't get stabbed--I think it's fairly rare for anyone to use someone dating an 18+ person as justification for violence.

And it's common for old rich men to date women just for their appearance--if you can call it dating-- (just like many johns probably aren't considerate enough to even care about the age of the prostitutes they seek out just for their bodies). It's far more socially acceptable for an older man and a younger woman to be in a relationship.

When older women and younger men are, it tends to face more social backlash--though not necessarily violence. And that's not even if the man is under 25--but a woman with even a small age gap between herself and a younger partner is often looked down on and the relationship is seen as less than ideal. 

Though imo, so long as people are both adults and not being abusive, it's no one else's business who anyone dates, and people should just mind their own business.

Personally, as an adult--I prefer to date people with brains that are done developing. It's part of being a responsible adult for me, and considering the impact I make onto other people, as well as my goals. 

I don't need some poor 22 year old boy idealizing me or thinking I'm mature, when if he were just five years older he'd recognize what a piece of work I am. 

And I don't think highly of men who like to trick girls or women into dating them either, using their lack of experience or straight-up immature physical stage of development. 

Though I do think this behavior probably is less related to physical maturity and more related to ethics and if you even care about othr people at all, beyond what you can get out of the situation. 

I get those men will always try to find ways to justify their behavior and claim that what they are doing is right--I just hope they'll be honest about it when meeting people--I don't see how lying and deception are regarded so highly in many of the online communities around manosphere--like with PUA. But fortunately most people don't view deception and lying and picking on people with less maturity as ethical.


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## SgtPepper (Nov 22, 2016)

Alcoholic_Wannabe said:


> so they're pulling out the "pedophile" card so they can feel better about being undeserving of attention.


lol. I'm seeing _a lot_ of older "empowered" women today openly hunting for/commenting on dudes 20 to 30 years their junior, and people around them applauding that behavior.

The moral of the story is don't take people/philosophies too seriously. People mostly want the same exact things, some however will shame you when you obtain what they can't have themselves.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

SgtPepper said:


> lol. I'm seeing _a lot_ of older "empowered" women today openly hunting for/commenting on dudes 20 to 30 years their junior, and people around them applauding that behavior.
> 
> The moral of the story is don't take people/philosophies too seriously. People mostly want the same exact things, some however will shame you when you obtain what they can't have themselves.


Women are also catching up to men with adultery. (edit )

I think that you will see women increasingly engaging in the same sexual/romantic behavior as men when they are not being oppressed. 

I don't see anything wrong with age gaps, but I personally am not ethically clear about dating someone under 25 since their brains are still developing. And I don't date women--so these are men I'm talking about.


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## Handsome Dyke (Oct 4, 2012)

Are you a troll or just an asshole

People tend to be suspicious of older men dating younger women because men have a long, sordid history of taking advantage of young people. It's that simple. Even people who are legally adults are still inexperienced and not necessarily aware of the potentially predatory behavior of other adults.


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## Alcoholic_Wannabe (Dec 3, 2021)

Saiyed Handsome **** said:


> Are you a troll or just an asshole
> 
> People tend to be suspicious of older men dating younger women because men have a long, sordid history of taking advantage of young people. It's that simple. Even people who are legally adults are still inexperienced and not necessarily aware of the potentially predatory behavior of other adults.


Well.. I'm being completely serious so I must be a douche, with reasonable expectations of other people.

If you're in your mid-20s and you still trust society and don't make very careful judgements, you deserve EVERYTHING you get.


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

I'm really not seeing the problem here unless it was your stated intention that you were only going to be with women younger than you. In which case then the ridicule against you would be more justified. 😆 That's just the reality of living in an increasingly complex society, where both men and women don't mature until much later in life than say 1000 years ago.

If you don't like it, move to Africa or something, where you're expected to be mostly an adult by age 12 in some societies and are treated as such.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Alcoholic_Wannabe said:


> Pleeeeeeeaaaaase? With fake brown-nosing on top?
> 
> You all have the most beautiful eyes 👁👁
> Now cut the shit.
> ...


Well...IMHO, young adults are prone to making mistakes and have to learn from them just like everyone else. Have you ever tried to tell someone that you care about that their relationship with someone might not be the best for them in the long run? How often does that go well? You can tell them that whomever they are seeing is displaying more red flags than a communist party rally, and they'll likely shut you down, excuse the behaviors, and proclaim their undying love. It has been known to utterly ruin friendships and cause family rifts that are never healed. 

It is age-appropriate for young adults to "try out" different sorts of people in their 20s to determine which one is a better fit for a long-term relationship. Even then, many of the experiences we have when we're young don't prepare us adequately for the rigors of a long-term relationship. 

I've seen people with age differences survive the test of time, I've also seen them crash and burn spectacularly. Adult relationships are tricky. They can rest on a knife edge, or be solid like a rock, a lot of the time, we don't see all the things that go on in the background to know what's what. I've seen relationships that appeared solid turn out to be horrifying in private. I've seen couples who bicker and bitch all the time but somehow manage to be madly in love despite all that. 

Basically, I'm saying that it is easy for us to judge when we're on the outside looking in. We always don't know the full dynamic, even though sometimes it seems obvious to us what's going on. Most of the time, the best we can do for people we care about is let them know we're here for them if they should ever find themselves in dire need of a friend and a place to stay.


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## Alcoholic_Wannabe (Dec 3, 2021)

Scoobyscoob said:


> I'm really not seeing the problem here unless it was your stated intention that you were only going to be with women younger than you. In which case then the ridicule against you would be more justified. 😆 That's just the reality of living in an increasingly complex society, where both men and women don't mature until much later in life than say 1000 years ago.
> 
> If you don't like it, move to Africa or something, where you're expected to be mostly an adult by age 12 in some societies and are treated as such.


Fuck no. My SO is a year my senior. But the discourse around this issue is making me concerned about where it could be heading.

_"He met his woman when she was 25?? OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!"_

"Fuck's sake, I was 24 at the ti-"

_"He used a facade of innocence to trick her?! LOCK HIM IN THE BRAZEN BULL!!"_


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

Alcoholic_Wannabe said:


> Fuck no. My SO is a year my senior. But the discourse around this issue is making me concerned about where it could be heading.
> 
> _"He met his woman when she was 25?? OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!"_
> 
> ...


Pedos and sex trafficking still exists is probably why older men get hit with gatekeeping when it comes to being with younger women:









How a Ring of Women Allegedly Recruited Girls for Jeffrey Epstein (Published 2019)


It’s not just Ghislaine Maxwell. A circle of Mr. Epstein’s girlfriends, employees and other associates faces scrutiny in the sex-trafficking scandal.




www.nytimes.com













Matt Gaetz Is Said to Face Justice Dept. Inquiry Over Sex With an Underage Girl (Published 2021)


An inquiry into the Florida congressman was opened in the final months of the Trump administration, people briefed on it said.




www.nytimes.com





Eh, having haters is just something you'll have to deal with. Your SO more than likely doesn't like your haters either so just ignoring them and not letting them get to you is how you don't give your haters anything over you. Because if you're the kind of person who has haters, they'll always exist and be out there, waiting to criticize and accuse you of crap. So just don't let them. 😛


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## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

> Shit, even if you're 28 and the woman is 22 Oh OBVIOUSLY you're taking advantage of her non-existent innocence. You monster.


That does make me roll my eyes a bit and I'd agree that once you're both over 20 and have no neurological development issues then it becomes rather ridiculous to treat this like it's akin to paedophilia. 
When I was 22 I was sexually capable and expected to make my own decisions, and apparently guys mature slower than females do. 

I don't know about this being like some conspiracy to get at men, part of me senses there's a genuine concern but it's one I've only really heard from Americans. Maybe it's a cultural thing regarding how sex is viewed.


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## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

If you're capable of dying for and voting in your country, you're capable of deciding on who you want to engage with. IMO, 21 is a good starting point since you're globally considered a legal adult. If people were incapable of making their own romantic decisions at 21, they shouldn't be considered adults in every other capacity, like voting, drinking, et al.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

also bleh


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Mark R said:


> Telling me that I am unconsciously gaslighting someone without any specific examples and then leaving isn't very helpful. I would like to learn to be more sensitive to cross-generational communication.


Perhaps just try to listen to some women's stories and learn more about the issues that are being discussed.

The Metoo movement probably produced a lot of testimony and stories that describe some of the concerns some women have faced. Perhaps pay more attention to the less controversial ones, and you might just slowly gain more insight into other people's experiences.

That way you can be more sensitive in interactions in the future. That would be my suggestion, if you actually want to grow your understanding. Perhaps pay special attention to stories of women who are in different socio-economic classes and of different cultural backgrounds than what you are used to.

Sort of like how I wouldn't ever know what it's like to be a black woman or man--but I can listen to the times that black people have been willing to describe their experiences, listen to their thoughts, and I can start to get a small understanding of what I don't know.

Of course that is just what you should do if you genuinely, in good faith, want to grow your understanding of your fellow human beings, and improve your communication with them. Imo, the big issue here is where you are--the internet.

The internet is full of people who do not exhibit the best side of themselves (and it can be particularly hostile to women online--so many women are more defensive, maybe?). 

So, I wouldn't worry about it too much--sometimes a lot is lost when you can't hear a person's tone of voice, or see their mannerisms--a lot of nuance can be lost in online communication and it can be harder to read intentions. Misunderstandings can happen that way, since most of human communication is body language and nonverbal (I think).


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## Alcoholic_Wannabe (Dec 3, 2021)

Mark R said:


> ?


There's just something about the pathetic worthlessness that some people talk and act with that make you wonder how they or their offspring would taste drizzled in a bit of BBQ sauce.


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

Mark R said:


> Telling me that I am unconsciously gaslighting someone without any specific examples and then leaving isn't very helpful. I would like to learn to be more sensitive to cross-generational communication.


Fair I’ll think about and get back to you if I can think of how to articulate it out loud and not be rude to you


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## Alcoholic_Wannabe (Dec 3, 2021)

Sensational said:


> What he said was logical so most people could distinguish


Meaning what? He was nice about it so you people can accept it?

You should be able to pay attention to what you're told regardless of if the individual was being a "big meanie-head."



Mark R said:


> Telling me that I am unconsciously gaslighting someone without any specific examples and then leaving isn't very helpful. I would like to learn to be more sensitive to cross-generational communication.


Dude don't even bother diving down that rabbit hole of self-victimizing, attention-seeking "everybody pity me" bullshit.

You can breathe in someone's direction now and get called a "gaslighter." It doesn't mean shit.


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

Alcoholic_Wannabe said:


> There's just something about the pathetic worthlessness that some people talk and act with that make you wonder how they or their offspring would taste drizzled in a bit of BBQ sauce.


@


Alcoholic_Wannabe said:


> Meaning what? He was nice about it so you people can accept it?
> 
> You should be able to pay attention to what you're told regardless of if the individual was being a "big meanie-head."
> 
> ...



If you mean, there’s a difference between message vs delivery… I agree. I just happen to usually put attention to delivery often over simply the message only.

As far as Mark. He may not be on the same page as me. But for example, his delivery and intent is entirely different than yours. He is not ill intended.

Anyways please leave me alone now. You got your big boy quips in. And even indirectly passively commented with a few references that’d only pertain to me (that’s some bitch ass shit btw). And I’ll stay outta your thread, moving forward. Fair.

You have zero respect for me. And frankly I could give two shits if you date someone’s 22 year old daughter under the basis of their age alone. Whether I think it’s tasteless or a reflection of your emotional maturity really shouldn’t matter to you, unless you plan to consider other views. If ya don’t then just ignore me.


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## Alcoholic_Wannabe (Dec 3, 2021)

Sensational said:


> @
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is some funny shit. First you accuse someone of this made-up "gaslight" crap (which bY tHe WaY is the real "bitch-ass shit" you snowflake) then you accuse me of saying something about you?

I barely acknowledged your existence here.

What did I say that pertained to you? Are you fat? Are you sagging? Do people vomit when they look at you?


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

Alcoholic_Wannabe said:


> This is some funny shit. First you accuse someone of this made-up "gaslight" crap (which bY tHe WaY is the real "bitch-ass shit" you snowflake) then you accuse me of saying something about you?
> 
> I barely acknowledged your existence here.
> 
> What did I say that pertained to you? Are you fat? Are you sagging? Do people vomit when they look at you?


Im going to answer Mark separate outside of this thread

As far as the rest of your crap, go fawk yow feewings. Isn’t that what you were getting to next. I was going to walk away in order to not derail your thread. And was agreeing to just disagree.

I guess I can take it as a compliment your calling me a snow flake. I don’t usually get called that one. Thanks. I’m so special today.

Ok special big boy. You go ahead, fuck whoever you want of legal age. When you feel like a man fucking em remember the phone you call em on their momma or daddy probably is paying for while they are in college. 😉😛. If you like screwing people who haven’t completed school and are in an age group where they are insured by parents and have phones thru parents, well don’t be shocked when their parents are raising an eyebrow.


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## Alcoholic_Wannabe (Dec 3, 2021)

Sensational said:


> Im going to answer Mark separate outside of this thread
> 
> As far as the rest of your crap, go fawk yow feewings. Isn’t that what you were getting to next. I was going to walk away in order to not derail your thread. And was agreeing to just agree.
> 
> ...


Yes.. "fuck your feelings." You got it completely right! Ooohh.. more bitch-ass shit from you, little miss "agreeing just to agree." 😂

No.. you're not. Most people are snowflakes.. most people are also food sources. Meaning the only way you could be worth anything to anyone is if someone cooked and ate you. You wanna take that as a compliment? Might as well drive off a cliff so your remains can be collected and put to use by legitimate human beings instead of whatever the fuck you're supposed to be.

Is that last rant supposed to effect me to any degree? If I want to bang young adults, you can raise as many eyebrows as you want. At the end of the day, it's just raising eyebrows. So that was a real pathetic attempt.


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

Alcoholic_Wannabe said:


> Yes.. "fuck your feelings." You got it completely right! Ooohh.. more bitch-ass shit from you, little miss "agreeing just to agree." 😂
> 
> No.. you're not. Most people are snowflakes.. most people are also food sources. Meaning the only way you could be worth anything to anyone is if someone cooked and ate you. You wanna take that as a compliment? Might as well drive off a cliff so your remains can be collected and put to use by legitimate human beings instead of whatever the fuck you're supposed to be.
> 
> Is that last rant supposed to effect me to any degree? If I want to bang young adults, you can raise as many eyebrows as you want. At the end of the day, it's just raising eyebrows. So that was a real pathetic attempt.


🤣

Whelp my work here is done

And we get to the root of why you’re getting judged.

👏🏻

Ok well that’s all folks 🤣

If you didn’t care then don’t make a thread complaining about everyone else’s perspective on it. Or were you just hoping to get a circle jerk going, of a bunch of people to tell you, what you need to hear.

You’re such a badass. The way you passionately tell me I’m a food source on society. Well keep banging girls that daddy is still insuring big boy. Shows how you’re not also a drain on society.

I absolutely take all of your insults as a compliment. Damn it feels good to be a gangster.

Whelp have a fantastical wonderful spectacular unicorn day, big boy. You sure showed me. Ooooo burn 🔥. Ba ba bye now!


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## Alcoholic_Wannabe (Dec 3, 2021)

Sensational said:


> 🤣
> 
> Whelp my work here is done
> 
> ...


Yes, congratulations. You sat there on your ass and watched as I made myself look like a scumbag.

I'm sooooo fucking hurt.

I have the right to complain because this is legitimately a problem. Gaslighting and you being a volatile crybaby is not. You're not the victim.. and you're sure as fuck not a "gangster." Gangsters don't cry about new age bullshit like "gaslighting" and the like. Jesus it makes you pathetic as shit.

And yes I did tell you..
.. and yes I'm still telling you. Food source.


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

Alcoholic_Wannabe said:


> Yes, congratulations. You sat there on your ass and watched as I made myself look like a scumbag.
> 
> I'm sooooo fucking hurt.
> 
> ...


There there: it’ll be ok, it’ll be ok

Only podunk people who don’t use new aged terms are valid sources of life.

Anyone who says the word gaslight is not worthy of further consideration.

Only those dumb enough to say fuck your feelings to people, have feelings that are worth acknowledging.

Gawd this shit is cracking me the hell up


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## Alcoholic_Wannabe (Dec 3, 2021)

Sensational said:


> There there: it’ll be ok, it’ll be ok


Not how this works. You were the one flipping out, delusionally claiming that I was sending comments your way and being a little bitch about Mark "gaslighting" you.

Shit, you even cemented your loser status with that laugh react.

So don't sit here and act like you wounded me. I'm literally eating a bowl of cereal while watching YouTube on my floor. You probably already put a hole in your drywall and kicked your dog.


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

Alcoholic_Wannabe said:


> Not how this works. You were the one flipping out, delusionally claiming that I was sending comments your way and being a little bitch about Mark "gaslighting" you.
> 
> Shit, you even cemented your loser status with that laugh react.
> 
> So don't sit here and act like you wounded me. I'm literally eating a bowl of cereal while watching YouTube on my floor. You probably already put a hole in your drywall and kicked your dog.


I can’t even 🤣🤣🤣

You’re cracking me the hell up smalls


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## Alcoholic_Wannabe (Dec 3, 2021)

Sensational said:


> Only those dumb enough to say fuck your feelings to people, have feelings that are worth acknowledging.


What is it with ExTPs and IxFJs and this retardation saying that intelligence and social likability are linked in some way?

They aren't. Get that through your skull. Intelligence and social likability are OPPOSITES. They can't be balanced.. they can't be high in the same person. Either you're intelligent or you're garbage.

Try again, Ms. "Gangsta."


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

Alcoholic_Wannabe said:


> What is it with ExTPs and IxFJs and this retardation saying that intelligence and social likability are linked in some way?
> 
> They aren't. Get that through your skull. Intelligence and social likability are OPPOSITES. They can't be balanced.. they can't be high in the same person. Either you're intelligent or you're garbage.
> 
> Try again, Ms. "Gangsta."


Oh no, don’t be that hard on yourself. I never wanna hear you call yourself garbage again.

🍿


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## Alcoholic_Wannabe (Dec 3, 2021)

Sensational said:


> Oh no, don’t be that hard on yourself. I never wanna hear you call yourself garbage again.
> 
> 🍿


Says the hipster gangster(degenerate)-wannabe who cries "gaslighter" while thinking that intelligence and people skills aren't opposed.

Listen, you can flail as pathetically as you want and try to make me look as many different ways as you want, I don't give a fuck because you have so much pitiful shit piled against you in this conversation from the dumbass crap you've said.

So I may look like an asshole here.. but at least I don't look like a cringy wannabe and a crying child.


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

Alcoholic_Wannabe said:


> Says the hipster gangster(degenerate)-wannabe who cries "gaslighter" while thinking that intelligence and people skills aren't opposed.
> 
> Listen, you can flail as pathetically as you want and try to make me look as many different ways as you want, I don't give a fuck because you have so much pitiful shit piled against you in this conversation from the dumbass crap you've said.
> 
> So I may look like an asshole here.. but at least I don't look like a cringy wannabe and a crying child.


Hipster food is pretty good, I like breweries too
Num num 

Looks around, nope no significant hipster stuff on or in my home. I guess everyone who doesn’t agree with you, or uses the word gaslight isn’t all new aged hipsters

Ya do realize the world isn’t only made up of, fuck your feelings people vs liberals right? There’s some people who don’t subscribe to any of that black and white thinking. I understand the fuck your feelings people do tend to assume anyone who disagrees with them ever are all special hipster snowflakes though


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## Alcoholic_Wannabe (Dec 3, 2021)

Sensational said:


> Hipster food is pretty good, I like breweries too
> Num num
> 
> Looks around, nope no significant hipster stuff on or in my home. I guess everyone who doesn’t agree with you, or uses the word gaslight isn’t all new aged hipsters
> ...


Your use of that word makes you one regardless of what you identify with.. or what politics you follow, which shouldn't even be a part of this conversation since nowhere did I mention politics. Again, you're reaching because you have nothing.

You fit into the laughable category of people who think the feelings of the collective matter. I am one of the few people who understand that they don't. That's what this is about.


----------



## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Umm......Yeah. I'm gonna officially bow out of this thread. Lol.


----------



## blossomier (Jul 24, 2020)

Alcoholic_Wannabe said:


> Shit, even if you're 28 and the woman is 22 Oh OBVIOUSLY you're taking advantage of her non-existent innocence. You monster.


A 22-year-old woman is definitely able to choose a partner older than she is (when it comes to that example of age gap), but usually their lives' experiences are different. Imagine the recurring scenario: a 22-year-old is a senior in university or at least getting a job after graduating, whereas a 28-year-old is much far away from that. He's more grown in life when it comes to salary, job stability, (in theory) how to handle his emotions and the way he acts.

It's not about hurrdurr she's a child hurrdurr we must protecc her!!!! It's about the generation issue.

Since you don't seem to care about data/statistics and research in general, at least I hope you can get my idea, because I personally had to experience some of this.

As a 21-year-old woman, I would definitely sleep with an older man (yes, I feel attracted to older men), but I wouldn't date someone close to their 30s. I get along well with my co-workers (they're both 30), but the generation gap is weird. I told one of them how I was watching an old TV series, and this one was from 2005. I was 4 turning 5 around that time, whereas he was a teenager. I think that feeling of growing up in a close generation is important, so I'd prefer someone around my age. If I was older, I'd definitely go to someone older, because as of now, I don't like that age gap. And if the guy near his 30s is as immature as some of my friends (those guys aren't that experienced when it comes to life in general), we're not the childish ones, he is. Wasn't he supposed to act his own age?



Alcoholic_Wannabe said:


> I'm pretty sure this is all happening because fat, sagging, useless, older feminist types don't like that no man wants to be anywhere near them anymore.. so they're pulling out the "pedophile" card so they can feel better about being undeserving of attention.


I agree that a lot of women in the HAES movement are now obligating people to like them and that people shouldn't have preferences, blablabla and that type of thing, but as an attractive young lady getting older men's attention, it's definitely weird.

Besides, another weird example I have: I was 17 and this 32-year-old approached me once. I was wearing a shirt about this band I'm into, and he came onto my direction and we started talking. He suddenly bursted out (about another band, the same musical gender): "[...] because I used to listen to them when I was pretty younger, when I was 20. Now I'm 32 and [...]" and this felt super weird. What do you think about this scenario? It's totally different, but I'm willing to see what are your thoughts about it, I'm curious. Do you think a 17-year-old with a 32-year-old dude is normal? Because I definitely don't.


----------



## WraithOfNightmare (Jun 20, 2019)

The problem is when contemporary feminism, which goes far beyond the original goals of the feminist movement / s, is becoming inserted into every discussion. I’m a Christian so this is going to be a Christian perspective, but the desire for marriage, the desire to be “partnered up”, the desire to not only want a career but want to get married and have kids, and even to prioritize marriage and family, are not only good and natural, but are part of the way we’re designed. Going against that is going against our design. 

I’m not an Evangelical where more extreme (borderline cultish) interpretations of it tell people to have as many kids as possible, I’m a non-denominational, so I disagree with having more children than one could reasonably afford to give all the time, attention, and resources towards educating and caring for them. 

The problem I see in today’s world is that young women, and to a degree, young men as well, are actively being discouraged from prioritizing finding a spouse and settling down (with having a family in mind) when they’re still in the prime years of their youth. It’s gotten to the point where it’s no longer politically correct, to varying degrees, to let people know that you want these things and you want them as soon as you can. The hyper-capitalist establishment we live in wants us to give our lives for the idea of a “career”, for “self actualization”, for ideas such as “self improvement” and “knowing your true name.” All of it infused with an increasing dose of dangerous New Age ideas. When we make ourselves our own mini-gods and chase after that boundless potential rather than finding happiness in the ways we’re meant to, the pillars of community and eventually society become fragmented, then crumble. 

Maybe I am biased because I have never been a work / career-oriented person myself and I will never let it define me, and I’ve seen first-hand the amount of damage a preoccupation on “self discovery” and the need for achievement does on families, including my own birth family. However, I believe we need a radical shift back to these more traditional pillars of society.

We have to tackle it from two perspectives: First, a shift back to the mindset that wanting marriage (I don’t agree with the living together and never marrying thing that’s fashionable in some European countries, sure I don’t like the state but this is just one of the inexplicably traditional parts of me) and kids are not only good and natural, but should be actively encouraged and expected for the vast majority of humans. Not only believers were designed to be this way, but the vast majority of humans. 

Second, we should do everything we can across the world to assist and help out the youth to the greatest degree possible so they can afford to marry and start families. This requires pulling resources away from the military, this requires tackling the problem of so much wealth being concentrated in a handful of people who should be the ones helping us out instead (Elon Musk, anyone?) and investing these financial resources into the truth that a nation can only be as good as the sum of its families. 

And lastly, when it comes to both sexes, the preoccupation with strength and independence will only lead to more weakness and suppressed dependence than one can realize. There has to be a shift away from the mindset of the “self made man / woman”, to see accomplishments as bonuses and blessings and the default as a state of being an average guy or gal who derives their meaning and purpose from the traditional pillars of society, a large part of it which is the institution of family.

Forgive me if this is too much of a religious perspective, and by the way I’ll always hold doors.


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## Alcoholic_Wannabe (Dec 3, 2021)

blossomier said:


> A 22-year-old woman is definitely able to choose a partner older than she is (when it comes to that example of age gap), but usually their lives' experiences are different. Imagine the recurring scenario: a 22-year-old is a senior in university or at least getting a job after graduating, whereas a 28-year-old is much far away from that. He's more grown in life when it comes to salary, job stability, (in theory) how to handle his emotions and the way he acts.
> 
> It's not about hurrdurr she's a child hurrdurr we must protecc her!!!! It's about the generation issue.
> 
> ...


It's not the norm, but there are enough women around that age who fantasize about men in their early thirties that it might as well be.

I love when an incident surrounding an adult celebrity sleeping with one of his groupies comes to light, everyone acts like he must have taken advantage of some mental weakness and said groupie didn't ACTUALLY want to do it.

Like c'mon, really? LMAO. Modern society insists that women should be seen as able to make their own decisions with their relationships but the second one actually does make her own decisions, everyone goes "nOt lIkE tHaT!!"


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## Alcoholic_Wannabe (Dec 3, 2021)

WraithOfNightmare said:


> The problem is when contemporary feminism, which goes far beyond the original goals of the feminist movement / s, is becoming inserted into every discussion. I’m a Christian so this is going to be a Christian perspective, but the desire for marriage, the desire to be “partnered up”, the desire to not only want a career but want to get married and have kids, and even to prioritize marriage and family, are not only good and natural, but are part of the way we’re designed. Going against that is going against our design.
> 
> I’m not an Evangelical where more extreme (borderline cultish) interpretations of it tell people to have as many kids as possible, I’m a non-denominational, so I disagree with having more children than one could reasonably afford to give all the time, attention, and resources towards educating and caring for them.
> 
> ...


What is it with you christians and believing that people are offended by the idea of marriage?

It's like how Boomers are constantly posting pictures of the American flag being all like "like and share if you're not offended by this!!!"

Please.. I'm begging you.. stop flattering yourselves.. 😔

That aside.. what does this PragerU talk have anything to do with the premise? LMAO


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

Alcoholic_Wannabe said:


> It's not the norm, but there are enough women around that age who fantasize about men in their early thirties that it might as well be.
> 
> I love when an incident surrounding an adult celebrity sleeping with one of his groupies comes to light, everyone acts like he must have taken advantage of some mental weakness and said groupie didn't ACTUALLY want to do it.
> 
> Like c'mon, really? LMAO. Modern society insists that women should be seen as able to make their own decisions with their relationships but the second one actually does make her own decisions, everyone goes "nOt lIkE tHaT!!"


I actually agree with you here on this point, when they are older than 21 (not 18).

But I do think you do lack some perspective on the backlash the woman in your hypothetical has too. But I get your point about the demonizing the male in this specific hypothetical, just like I said I understood Ocks point too


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

-


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## Ace Of Forests (Aug 22, 2021)

Sensational said:


> Snipped


There's a lot here that I'm not in a position to comment on, so I just want to say that I read this and appreciate your authenticity.

For what it's worth, and I know you know this, everyone has to make mistakes to learn the lessons of life that lead to becoming a full person. You took what you learned from yours and made sure the cycle stopped, a feat you recognize here but from your words rings a bit hollow right now. Your success in those goals is not measured by your children making no mistakes, but by the foundations you built for them for when those mistakes catch up to them. All your children are going to be on different paths of growth now, and that's what you were really working for. The option to choose their own path, instead of 'By any means necessary'.

Thanks for sharing.


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## Mark R (Dec 23, 2015)

WickerDeer said:


> Perhaps just try to listen to some women's stories and learn more about the issues that are being discussed.
> 
> The Metoo movement probably produced a lot of testimony and stories that describe some of the concerns some women have faced. Perhaps pay more attention to the less controversial ones, and you might just slowly gain more insight into other people's experiences.
> 
> ...


I deleted my posts and stepped away. The conversation has just been toxic. I examine my heart to see if anything I say comes from a bad place, and I am often too hard on myself for how the things I say or write might affect others.

I have never denied your experience. I am very aware of the Me Too movement. I have felt the pain of my family members, loved ones, and friends who have suffered abuse. I have witnessed and been personally affected by many of these issues. I am often bothered by the cruelty we are all capable of if we don't monitor our heart and actions.

You might not have intended to be condescending and patronizing, but it feels that way. I only asked for specific examples that might not be heard as I intended, so I could examine my own heart and improve my communication.


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## blossomier (Jul 24, 2020)

Alcoholic_Wannabe said:


> It's not the norm, but there are enough women around that age who fantasize about men in their early thirties that it might as well be.


Well, as you said, fantasize. A fantasy =/= reality. Being massively wealthy could make me happy, but the tax I'd pay for it would be annoying. When things are a fantasy, it's not exactly the perfect outcome applying to real life. On my own post I told you I am attracted to older men, so indeed I am one of the ladies that fancy guys in their early thirties, although I wouldn't date one.



Alcoholic_Wannabe said:


> I love when an incident surrounding an adult celebrity sleeping with one of his groupies comes to light, everyone acts like he must have taken advantage of some mental weakness and said groupie didn't ACTUALLY want to do it.


Power play.



Alcoholic_Wannabe said:


> Like c'mon, really? LMAO. Modern society insists that women should be seen as able to make their own decisions with their relationships but the second one actually does make her own decisions, everyone goes "nOt lIkE tHaT!!"


Reach. I agree that we shouldn't demonize men and only blame y'all for the mistakes made, but instead of blaming women for how they're not naive and ingenuous, we should also keep in mind how men can be really immature even being very much older than the girls they're dating.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

edit--oops I was trying to write the below comment as this edit, but I accidentally made a new one. oh well.

I'm done in this disucssion--not cool with discussions that devolve to threats of physical violence just because someone doesn't agree that idk (not talking about Mark)...a woman chooses not to date men under 25 because it feels unethical to them. I'm over it.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Mark R said:


> I deleted my posts and stepped away. The conversation has just been toxic. I examine my heart to see if anything I say comes from a bad place, and I am often too hard on myself for how the things I say or write might affect others.
> 
> I have never denied your experience. I am very aware of the Me Too movement. I have felt the pain of my family members, loved ones, and friends who have suffered abuse. I have witnessed and been personally affected by many of these issues. I am often bothered by the cruelty we are all capable of if we don't monitor our heart and actions.
> 
> You might not have intended to be condescending and patronizing, but it feels that way. I only asked for specific examples that might not be heard as I intended, so I could examine my own heart and improve my communication.


I never said you denied my experience. I don't expect random people on the internet to validate my experience.

I was giving you general advice that works for anyone, when dealing with emotional topics--especially since it is human nature not to know more than you know, and it is the nature of reality to be ignorant about experiences you've never had, unless you make a conscious effort to step outside your own experiences and listen.

It was general advice.

I do sound condescending and patronizing sometimes--but I am sorry, that it's not my priority to fix.

I also stepped out of the discussion as death threats focused at women just for sharing their view online, and for saying they wouldn't date men younger than 25 for their own ethical reasons--out of concern for men, being taken as "infantilizing women" is toxic to me. Death threats and harassment and stalking online are toxic, and they aren't unfamiliar to many women--but of course someone would have to actually open up their mind to the experiences of people different than them to bother to notice that.

I'm out. I didn't intend to be condescending or patronizing when giving you the advice you asked about.

I will apologize for insulting sperm, because I do agree that was something out of line that I did. And I shouldn't have resorted to that.


* *





You might notice my emotional tone--it's not all about what you said (in fact almost none of it is about what you said)--it's because things outside of the conversation (threats of violence happening in the peripheral, past experiences of having a male peer disappeared by a 50 year old pedophile who wanted to marry me when I turned 16, various other experiences people have...they actually do affect conversations about emotional topics, even unconsciously. That's reality and I'm not going to say more on it. If you don't want to hear my advice, I am perfectly fine with that--I only offered it after you asked. There are often emotional influences that affect discussions that have emotional topics--just saying that, not to be condescending, but because some NT and T types seem to be surprised by that, but that is why I gave the advice I did--because emotions are part of communication often, and therea re some ways to mitigate that. I was not saying that you didn't acknowledge my experience or you don't acknowledge that women have experienced negative things.


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## Mark R (Dec 23, 2015)

WickerDeer said:


> The specific example, is probably more related to T vs. F, or just inaffective communication on my or your part (Sensational did say she also heard it--so it wasn't just me, and you have also been criticized by others on the forum before--so I'll go on a limb here and repeat the feedback in another way)


It is certainly possible for both of you to be mistaken about my "subconscious" intent. I only asked for specific examples so I could be a judge whether what you heard came from any bad place in my heart. I received many demeaning insults from your direction, but I never responded in kind. I did not asked to receive any kind of training from you, though you continue. Mature adult conversations require that both parties are capable of listening to the other. I've demonstrated a willingness to listen, but from you I haven't seen that. I may be willing to work on my communication skills, but anything I say seems to fall on deaf, insensitive ears. First, I received open hostility and belittling insults from you. Now, I am only receiving what sound like pedantic, patronizing lectures.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Mark R said:


> It is certainly possible for both of you to be mistaken about my "subconscious" intent. I only asked for specific examples so I could be a judge whether what you heard came from any bad place in my heart. I received many demeaning insults from your direction, but I never responded in kind. I did not asked to receive any kind of training from you, though you continue. Mature adult conversations require that both parties are capable of listening to the other. I've demonstrated a willingness to listen, but from you I haven't seen that. I may be willing to work on my communication skills, but anything I say seems to fall on deaf, insensitive ears. First, I received open hostility and belittling insults from you. Now, I am only receiving what sound like pedantic, patronizing lectures.


I don't make assumptions about your subconscious intent. I don't know you enough to psychoanalyze you and I am not a psychologist.

I don't think the other member was really trying to psychoanalize you either--she was probably just trying to say that it also came off to her that way and explain why.

Both of us did this in the presence of someone who appeared to be literally threatening physical harm to us. This is the reality that happens online with women when they try to be polite and helpful and honest at the same time.

I am done with this discussion and it doesn't have much to do with you. It would be nice if people were able to see what was going on without it having to be spelled out in a way that's supposedly "patronizing."

I am going to repeat what I said about apologizing for insulting sperm. That is it. It's not my job to hang around in a thread where someone has threatened me, just to explain to you the same thing I already suggested--which is a general advice to ANYONE who wants to open their mind to the emotional content in a discussion, and to avoid triggers, and to have more successful communication with people of other background and experience.

It's not my problem if you don't work on your communication skills. That is not my responsibility. You don't have to do anything--you wee given feedback and also advice and I am done engaging in this topic. I find it annoying I'm expected to help someone out, when you are not even acknowledging what happened in this thread, let alone the other stuff that was talked about by people in this thread--about their very real personal experiences with predators (who harmed not only women (so no it's not evil feminists only care about girls) but also men.

I really don't want to say anything more critical or hurtful. I stand by my advice to listen to and read various stories and experiences of women, if you want to be more sensitive and possibly more successful in navigating this kind of discussion.

IT is the same advice I would give to anyone, because it's not your personal failure, but rather human nature and the nature of reality that we will be ignorant about experiences we've never had unless we try to remedy that by listening with empathy and growing our understanding. As I said--same is for me about things I've never experienced, such as being male, being black, being gay--I also have to learn to avoid stepping on emotional landmines in discussions.

Edit:

I see you said you didn't want to be lectured or given advice or whatever, or taught something--that you just want specific examples, even though you've now deleted all your posts. I'm not interested in getting into a debate--I gave general advice.

It sounds like it wasn't helpful, so please disregard. The other member also tried to corroborate with her personal experience and how she understood you. I don't think it's reasonable for you to expect us to continue, despite as you have said it only sounds like lectures and insults and whatever.

I still apologize for insulting sperm. I agree with you that I did get belittling and insulting, you are right, and I shouldn't have done that. I was mostly stressed by things that had nothing to do with you and were not your fault, so I apologize. 

I am walking away from this toxic thread now.


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## Crowbo (Jul 9, 2017)

WickerDeer said:


> edit--oops I was trying to write the below comment as this edit, but I accidentally made a new one. oh well.
> 
> I'm done in this disucssion--not cool with discussions that devolve to threats of physical violence just because someone doesn't agree that idk (not talking about Mark)...a woman chooses not to date men under 25 because it feels unethical to them. I'm over it.


Indeed. This threads OP is a troll that is completely undeserving of our attention.


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## ENIGMA2019 (Jun 1, 2015)

This thread _sighs_ Gotta love PerC


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

-


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## ENIGMA2019 (Jun 1, 2015)

Sensational said:


> -


Best response in the whole damn thread


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## Mark R (Dec 23, 2015)

Nothing


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## Lonewaer (Jul 14, 2014)

@Mark R
It's funny how those people who fight for everyone to be more sensible and empathetic (and more sensitive) always end up being the least sensible and empathetic (but somehow the most sensitive) they can possibly be. They assume they're the only ones going through stuff (abuse included) just because others don't talk about themselves, that being more sensible and sensitive will solve issues faster, and that soaking in past trauma somehow would help with the hurt. None of those assumptions is true, but somehow that is too hard to grasp.

I had no idea such a thing as "sensitivity training" even existed. What, people really want to become even more fragile victims ? This world is so backwards nowadays I can actually believe it.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

@Mark R I got a message that I was quoted, but I see it has been removed. Not sure what it said--but I don't really think anyone needs to explain anything or anything more needs to be said. Misunderstandings happen online. So, hopefully you will not continue to be troubled by the interaction.

(edit: decided not to respond to lonewear)


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## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

This thread was an obvious honeypot.


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## Mark R (Dec 23, 2015)

As a young child, I went to hell and was tortured by the devil, who was a man. So I grew up as a boy hating men. I became a man and then I saw myself as the monster that I hated. My first girlfriend was raped by her drug addict brother. He killed himself a day later. Not everyone needs to hear more stories to reinforce that men are monsters.


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## superloco3000 (Dec 15, 2017)

Ace Of Forests said:


> There's a lot here that I'm not in a position to comment on, so I just want to say that I read this and appreciate your authenticity.
> 
> For what it's worth, and I know you know this, everyone has to make mistakes to learn the lessons of life that lead to becoming a full person. You took what you learned from yours and made sure the cycle stopped, a feat you recognize here but from your words rings a bit hollow right now. Your success in those goals is not measured by your children making no mistakes, but by the foundations you built for them for when those mistakes catch up to them. All your children are going to be on different paths of growth now, and that's what you were really working for. The option to choose their own path, instead of 'By any means necessary'.
> 
> Thanks for sharing.


Hahaha man , you weren't so evil after all xD.
But you are right you have to raise children to be strong so they can face every challenge , in this difficult world.


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## Celtsincloset (Feb 17, 2014)

Alcoholic_Wannabe said:


> Don't defend the food sources.


Watch the door—it can hit you on the arse on the way out. Byeee


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## Mark R (Dec 23, 2015)

WickerDeer said:


> @Mark R I got a message that I was quoted, but I see it has been removed. Not sure what it said--but I don't really think anyone needs to explain anything or anything more needs to be said. Misunderstandings happen online. So, hopefully you will not continue to be troubled by the interaction.
> 
> (edit: decided not to respond to lonewear)


It's OK. You couldn't know about my past trauma. I have processed my emotions and some memories now. I really think you were trying to help. I think I'm reasonably clear of bad feelings.

Sorry about the drama.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Mark R said:


> It's OK. You couldn't know about my past trauma. I have processed my emotions and some memories now. I really think you were trying to help. I think I'm reasonably clear of bad feelings.
> 
> Sorry about the drama.


Thanks! And you couldn't know about my past trauma--I think we are even, although I admit I was rude and insulting, and acting way more immature than I should have, whereas you kept your cool (so not sure if that means we were even or not since I really did act pretty immaturely, but--just saying I don't have hard feelings either).

I didn't even realize I was being triggered and that does happen to me online, and I do apologize for how I acted, especially given that you also experienced past trauma and may also have been walking a tightrope in a way, whereas tbh I think I completely fell off a few times.

talking about trauma

* *





I do want to say that men aren't monsters, and that it can be painful to try to reconcile why an individual person chooses to make the poor choices they do, though they may have complicated influences it doesn't reflect on their gender.

For me, it was actually kind of difficult to accept this--that it was an individual's responsibility, and that they chose that--even though I may have trusted them, or not understood why someone would do that, and for a childhood experience--it could be someone you look up to or trust or admire. It can be painful, as strange as that seems, to place responsibility on the individual (though I still think there are also complex influences). For myself, I also diffused the blame a bit onto the entire gender, and my greater healing began when I confronted that it was an individual who chose to do some poor behavior, and it was better to stop seeing it as a being a male thing. Because it's not. Many men are good, and individual men can also choose to be better people (and same with women).

So I don't think you are a monster and nothing you said made you seem monsterous to me--I just was upset about the things I experienced in the past, because sometimes it seems like online there is a lot of hostility towards women, and it does make me sad given that I know a lot of good, innocent women and girls who experience difficult things. I only suggested reading about that movement to know what they go through, not because I feel you are a monster or a predator, and not because I want anyone to think men are monsters (or women).

But I also totally think that people who've experienced trauma should be mindful of triggers especially, and it's absolutely possible that reading things like that could also be a trigger--and I think it's much better to be mindful of that and not to do things that are harmful to one's self in one's healing development.




Thanks for letting me know that your feelings have lightened, and I also feel like I realize more about the situation and I think I was just being triggered tbh. I can't pretend it's not something I've been dealing with for a while now, unfortunately. I never really got mental health counseling about it and I don't seem to have access right now, but I always love that people can do whatever they can to heal and break intergenerational trauma--and I should also say that is very admirable that you've overcome those childhood experiences because it isn't easy, but people absolutely can grow past painful or traumatic experiences and have that much more strength to offer the world.

So thank you, and I am also feeling better as well. I am, again, sorry for how harsh and aggressive I was--it was unwarranted.


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

Alcoholic_Wannabe said:


> Sex trafficking and relationships are unrelated issues.
> 
> Also "haters," huh? You know who else would technically qualify as a "hater?" A guy with a gun pointed to your head.
> 
> But nah I'm sure you can have a good laugh about how your attacker is "just a hater" as you slowly bleed out.


Oh you got banned. Well anyway, I was going to say you obviously don't know what a hater is then. A hater is someone who tries to make your life worse because they're jealous, spiteful, antagonistic, etc. Most haters don't go so far as to become a murderer unless they're a super loser at life because the vast majority of people don't have absolutely nothing to lose by trying to kill the person they're hating on. Anyway, I thought I should clear that up.


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

Reading through this thread to see what I missed. * shaking my head *

After what the OP said I have a feeling the ban isn't temporary but I wouldn't mind if he were allowed back. Just to see what else he has to say since he did eventually admit that he wants to bang young women, which is why he has the views that he does.

Also, I don't really get this weird assumption that older men *biologically *prefer younger women. I actually looked this up since I thought maybe I was weird for not being into 20 something year old women, but nope, it turns out I'm just normal for my age.

I like sex quite a lot but I don't believe in the mostly bullshitery of internet evolutionary biology. The internet really never fails to surprise me that there are people on the internet that think normal functioning people are secretly degenerates. 🙄


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Was he insinuating that he.......Ah, never mind. Sometimes not having the greatest reading comprehension makes things easier tbh.


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## Mark R (Dec 23, 2015)

I have no idea why I am getting back on topic, and there is another thread that discusses age of consent.



Scoobyscoob said:


> Also, I don't really get this weird assumption that older men *biologically *prefer younger women. I actually looked this up since I thought maybe I was weird for not being into 20 something year old women, but nope, it turns out I'm just normal for my age.


How old are you and what age do you prefer? Is there a different age that you might consider most physically attractive, though you don't date?


Scoobyscoob said:


> I like sex quite a lot but I don't believe in the mostly bullshitery of internet evolutionary biology. The internet really never fails to surprise me that there are people on the internet that think normal functioning people are secretly degenerates. 🙄


Evolutionary biology produces men and women that behave like animals. Fortunately, laws, families, society, and religion are counterbalancing forces.


WickerDeer said:


> Thanks for letting me know that your feelings have lightened, and I also feel like I realize more about the situation and I think I was just being triggered tbh. I can't pretend it's not something I've been dealing with for a while now, unfortunately. I never really got mental health counseling about it and I don't seem to have access right now, but I always love that people can do whatever they can to heal and break intergenerational trauma--and I should also say that is very admirable that you've overcome those childhood experiences because it isn't easy, but people absolutely can grow past painful or traumatic experiences and have that much more strength to offer the world.


Therapists and support groups can both help with past trauma. For me, support groups are triggering. It helps to know that many people have experienced what you have experienced and some are doing well, but I don't like hearing about abuse experiences.

I'm grateful that I raised a son that never experienced what I experienced. He's 18 now, has already has completed a four-year university degree, and is working a full-time IT job online. His mother and I divorced a couple of years ago amicably. I spent Thanksgiving week with my son and ex-wife. We had a good time.


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

wow a cannibal


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

Mark R said:


> I have no idea why I am getting back on topic, and there is another thread that discusses age of consent.
> 
> 
> How old are you and what age do you prefer? Is there a different age that you might consider most physically attractive, though you don't date?
> ...


Lets just say I'm well past my 20s and I've always preferred women around my own age, although I have dated women who are older and younger than I am by a significant amount. Also, I think physical attractiveness is an individual characteristic more than a quality of a person's age and I wouldn't seriously date someone based purely on physical attraction. As for older men dating younger women, as long as the relationship isn't predatory, significant age differences don't bother me. Most people, including myself have a problem with predation of younger women and outside of that, I don't find it to make it my business what two people with a large age difference see in one another. I might find it a bit strange and off putting if it's a sugar daddy kind of relationship, but otherwise it's not my business.

Well, evolutionary biology is a legitimate field of science. I was talking about internet evolutionary biologists who think we're all slaves to our biology and outside of reproduction we have no other purpose to living. Manchild kind of views really, who don't realize that they're implicitly justifying many of the terrible things that happened in the 20th century. I suppose institutions exist for those who need them. However, I've never really needed an organization to tell me what the limits of behavior are but there are more than enough people who do. I just happen to not be one of them.


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## Mark R (Dec 23, 2015)

Scoobyscoob said:


> Lets just say I'm well past my 20s and I've always preferred women around my own age, although I have dated women who are older and younger than I am by a significant amount. Also, I think physical attractiveness is an individual characteristic more than a quality of a person's age and I wouldn't seriously date someone based purely on physical attraction. As for older men dating younger women, as long as the relationship isn't predatory, significant age differences don't bother me. Most people, including myself have a problem with predation of younger women and outside of that, I don't find it to make it my business what two people with a large age difference see in one another. I might find it a bit strange and off putting if it's a sugar daddy kind of relationship, but otherwise it's not my business.


It's a bad strategy to date someone on physical attraction. A satisfying relationship requires compatibility on many levels.


Scoobyscoob said:


> Well, evolutionary biology is a legitimate field of science. I was talking about internet evolutionary biologists who think we're all slaves to our biology and outside of reproduction we have no other purpose to living. Manchild kind of views really, who don't realize that they're implicitly justifying many of the terrible things that happened in the 20th century. I suppose institutions exist for those who need them. However, I've never really needed an organization to tell me what the limits of behavior are but there are more than enough people who do. I just happen to not be one of them.


I suppose both our bad behavior as well as the things that counteract that bad behavior are built into biology. Our biology also pushes us to form social groups. The higher functions in our brains push us to create moral and ethical systems. These social groups create norms.


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

Mark R said:


> It's a bad strategy to date someone on physical attraction. A satisfying relationship requires compatibility on many levels.
> 
> I suppose both our bad behavior as well as the things that counteract that bad behavior are built into biology. Our biology also pushes us to form social groups. The higher functions in our brains push us to create moral and ethical systems. These social groups create norms.


Well, I think it's a bad idea to select someone based *solely* on physical attractiveness. Being physically attractive helps with initial attraction but yeah, I agree that any satisfying and enduring relationship is going to be based on multiple levels of compatibility and attraction.

I don't know the evolutionary biological explanation as to why the duality of man, or of humans is a part of human nature, but I suppose being reproductively promiscuous while also showing empathy and parental altruism must have been advantageous in passing down one's genes. I'd have some theories as to why that is, but I don't like speculating as to why that might be, although I would suspect would come down to why there are distinct differences between a liberal and conservative mindset and how both social/mating strategies were successful enough to make it to modern day.


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## Mark R (Dec 23, 2015)

Scoobyscoob said:


> Well, I think it's a bad idea to select someone based *solely* on physical attractiveness. Being physically attractive helps with initial attraction but yeah, I agree that any satisfying and enduring relationship is going to be based on multiple levels of compatibility and attraction.


Oops. I saw what I typed. Yes. You need to have some physical attraction to partner.


Scoobyscoob said:


> I don't know the evolutionary biological explanation as to why the duality of man, or of humans is a part of human nature, but I suppose being reproductively promiscuous while also showing empathy and parental altruism must have been advantageous in passing down one's genes. I'd have some theories as to why that is, but I don't like speculating as to why that might be, although I would suspect would come down to why there are distinct differences between a liberal and conservative mindset and how both social/mating strategies were successful enough to make it to modern day.


Ah, K and r strategy. I guess some of this is wired in our brains. I suppose people with "r" strategy hardwired into their brains have a lot more difficulty staying faithful to one partner as society often expects. As someone who is hardwired for monogamy, I have no idea what such people experience. We are still responsible for being honest with our intimate partners, I suppose.

Sometimes, I am critical of men or women who sleep around. Sometimes, I am even critical of myself, because some suggest a male is supposed to sleep around. I probably just prefer monogamy as a man, not because of a decision that I've made, but because of some type of genetic encoding.


Scoobyscoob said:


> Reading through this thread to see what I missed. * shaking my head *
> 
> After what the OP said I have a feeling the ban isn't temporary but I wouldn't mind if he were allowed back. Just to see what else he has to say since he did eventually admit that he wants to bang young women, which is why he has the views that he does.
> 
> Also, I don't really get this weird assumption that older men *biologically *prefer younger women. I actually looked this up since I thought maybe I was weird for not being into 20 something year old women, but nope, it turns out I'm just normal for my age.


I've dated older women and younger women. I certainly would have never left my ex-wife during our 17-year marriage for someone younger, but my ex wanted for us to part ways while our son was at university. I'm currently dating a much younger women who wants children. I absolutely love children. If she later wants to marry and have children, I just hope our age difference doesn't present great risk factors. I definitely don't want to have children and be separated from them.


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## Crowbo (Jul 9, 2017)

Ock said:


> Was he insinuating that he.......Ah, never mind. Sometimes not having the greatest reading comprehension makes things easier tbh.


Indeed it does. This is easily one of worst PerC threads I've ever run into. No wonder the OP got banned. 😂


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

Mark R said:


> Oops. I saw what I typed. Yes. You need to have some physical attraction to partner.
> 
> Ah, K and r strategy. I guess some of this is wired in our brains. I suppose people with "r" strategy hardwired into their brains have a lot more difficulty staying faithful to one partner as society often expects. As someone who is hardwired for monogamy, I have no idea what such people experience. We are still responsible for being honest with our intimate partners, I suppose.


Yes.

Also,, don't K and R have more to do with procreation strategies? Although I suppose there probably is a child rearing analog to K and R because IIRC, K and R and simply male mating strategies that are observed in people and in various species of animals.



Mark R said:


> Sometimes, I am critical of men or women who sleep around. Sometimes, I am even critical of myself, because some suggest a male is supposed to sleep around. I probably just prefer monogamy as a man, not because of a decision that I've made, but because of some type of genetic encoding.


I don't really mind if a man or woman sleeps around if single and does so responsibly. I also much prefer monogamy because I think that's what's best for the kids and for your own sanity. I've been in an open relationship when I was younger and it was very stressful and ultimately harmed the relationship. It's something I would not recommend if you value your relationship with your SO.



Mark R said:


> I've dated older women and younger women. I certainly would have never left my ex-wife during our 17-year marriage for someone younger, but my ex wanted for us to part ways while our son was at university. I'm currently dating a much younger women who wants children. I absolutely love children. If she later wants to marry and have children, I just hope our age difference doesn't present great risk factors. I definitely don't want to have children and be separated from them.


I see. Was that some sort of pre-marriage agreement? If the sole reason for getting together were to have a kid(s), raise them then split up, I don't think I would've gone through with such an arrangement. Well at least you met someone new. Is the new, younger woman interested in having children or starting a family? As weird as it is to say that it's not the same, you really should know if by having children she also means to start a family with you. There are risks associated with having children while older, especially for older women, but for men the risk is minimal. The risk of a child having a birth defect due to an older father goes from sub-1% to around 1%.

Hah, well I could have a few things to say about having children and being seperated from them, but I'll just say I'd agree, don't have kids if you're not going to be in their life. That's the main reason why the black community in the US is the poverty stricken mess that it is today compared to the 1950s. Single parenting ends up being bad for the kids and much harder on the single parent regardless of race though.

I agree with you with the last part. Being seperated from my children is rough and while I have no doubt my wife is a capable parent, especially with the resources that she has, not being with my girls in their younger years is tough. I have a lot of things I still need to teach them before they grow up. 🙂


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## Mark R (Dec 23, 2015)

Scoobyscoob said:


> Yes.
> 
> Also,, don't K and R have more to do with procreation strategies? Although I suppose there probably is a child rearing analog to K and R because IIRC, K and R and simply male mating strategies that are observed in people and in various species of animals.


Sometimes men (an women) wired for multiple partners will get married to a monogamous partner because of what society expects, especially if raised by more conservative parents and religious.


Scoobyscoob said:


> I don't really mind if a man or woman sleeps around if single and does so responsibly. I also much prefer monogamy because I think that's what's best for the kids and for your own sanity. I've been in an open relationship when I was younger and it was very stressful and ultimately harmed the relationship. It's something I would not recommend if you value your relationship with your SO.


It works fine if he (she) knows his own nature and is honest about it with others.


Scoobyscoob said:


> I see. Was that some sort of pre-marriage agreement? If the sole reason for getting together were to have a kid(s), raise them then split up, I don't think I would've gone through with such an arrangement. Well at least you met someone new. Is the new, younger woman interested in having children or starting a family? As weird as it is to say that it's not the same, you really know if by having children she also means to start a family with you. There are risks associated with having children while older, especially for older women, but for men the risk is minimal. The risk of a child having a birth defect due to an older father goes from sub-1% to around 1%.


No. I was shocked that she wanted to leave the marriage. She is an ISTJ, and I am an ENTP. It wasn't a terrible relationship, but it also wasn't the most compatible pairing. She did get more spontaneous over the years, but I couldn't really speak freely and the emotional intimacy was lacking.

I'm 57 and she is 28. As an INFJ, she's a much more compatible type than my ex. As far as risks, I have heard there is a 50% greater chance of autism. 


Scoobyscoob said:


> Hah, well I could have a few things to say about having children and being seperated from them, but I'll just say I'd agree, don't have kids if you're not going to be in their life. That's the main reason why the black community in the US is the poverty stricken mess that it is today compared to the 1950s. Single parenting ends up being bad for the kids and much harder on the single parent regardless of race though.


Yes, a couple requires good potential for the long run to risk having children. I'll have to be prepared to raise children until I am 80. My mother an her four siblings are all still alive and around 90 right now. My uncle built a shed at 95. Hopefully, I inherited their longevity.


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

Mark R said:


> Sometimes men (an women) wired for multiple partners will get married to a monogamous partner because of what society expects, especially if raised by more conservative parents and religious.
> 
> It works fine if he (she) knows his own nature and is honest about it with others.


That might be true from an SJ and perhaps NF perspective but I find that to be very unlikely for an SP or NT. Social pressure to conform doesn't work nearly as well on SPs and NTs. Source: My wife is an SP and I'm an NT. 😛



Mark R said:


> No. I was shocked that she wanted to leave the marriage. She is an ISTJ, and I am an ENTP. It wasn't a terrible relationship, but it also wasn't the most compatible pairing. She did get more spontaneous over the years, but I couldn't really speak freely and the emotional intimacy was lacking.
> 
> I'm 57 and she is 28. As an INFJ, she's a much more compatible type than my ex. As far as risks, I have heard there is a 50% greater chance of autism.


Hm, I think the worst part is she didn't bring up divorce until the child you two had moved out, then sprung it on you. Seems like a pretty selfish/oblivious/tonedeaf thing to do.

I see, that's quite an age difference. Are you sure that would work out long term? When you turn 70, she'll be 41. Well at any rate, if I were you, my biggest concern would be having kids then trying to take them and run off. It'd be a good idea to find out how serious she is about starting a family with you first.

Also yes, I mentioned the numbers in my previous post. Sub-1% normally, around 1% when the man is older. ~3-4% if the woman is older (50+ y/o) and something like ~5% if both the man and woman are older.



Mark R said:


> Yes, a couple requires good potential for the long run to risk having children. I'll have to be prepared to raise children until I am 80. My mother an her four siblings are all still alive and around 90 right now. My uncle built a shed at 95. Hopefully, I inherited their longevity.


I see, well then for your and your future childrens' sake, I hope so too.


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## Mark R (Dec 23, 2015)

Scoobyscoob said:


> That might be true from an SJ and perhaps NF perspective but I find that to be very unlikely for an SP or NT. Social pressure to conform doesn't work nearly as well on SPs and NTs. Source: My wife is an SP and I'm an NT. 😛


The famous Barron Tieger 2000 study says that SP/NT relationships are one of the more successful pairings.


Scoobyscoob said:


> Hm, I think the worst part is she didn't bring up divorce until the child you two had moved out, then sprung it on you. Seems like a pretty selfish/oblivious/tonedeaf thing to do.


I had supported the family and shared in homeschooling of our son. My ex left work to homeschool him full time. This project was much more important to her than our marriage. He graduated university at 18, summa cum laude, but still.


Scoobyscoob said:


> I see, that's quite an age difference. Are you sure that would work out long term? When you turn 70, she'll be 41. Well at any rate, if I were you, my biggest concern would be having kids then trying to take them and run off. It'd be a good idea to find out how serious she is about starting a family with you first.
> 
> Also yes, I mentioned the numbers in my previous post. Sub-1% normally, around 1% when the man is older. ~3-4% if the woman is older (50+ y/o) and something like ~5% if both the man and woman are older.


The most reliable data suggests the age difference doesn't matter. A 2008 British study analyzed millions of marriages in census data and concluded: "However the use of almost all registered marriages and divorces between 1963 and 2005 should make the data more robust than analysis using surveys. As such, it seems reasonable to conclude that despite any popular belief to the contrary, there does not appear to be any strong association between marital age difference and probability of divorce." Ben Wilson and Steve Smallwood. "Age differences at marriage and divorce" (PDF). _Office for National Statistics_.


Scoobyscoob said:


> I see, well then for your and your future childrens' sake, I hope so too.


I agree. Of course, we are just dating at this point to see if there is potential. I didn't choose to well in the past.


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

Mark R said:


> The famous Barron Tieger 2000 study says that SP/NT relationships are one of the more successful pairings.


In terms of marital satisfaction yes. I mentioned her SPness because considering how long I've known her for, I'm very confident she's not secretly polygamous. 😄



Mark R said:


> I had supported the family and shared in homeschooling of our son. My ex left work to homeschool him full time. This project was much more important to her than our marriage. He graduated university at 18, summa cum laude, but still.


A project, I see. Well if that were the case, then it's probably for the best that you two separated sooner rather than later. 



Mark R said:


> The most reliable data suggests the age difference doesn't matter. A 2008 British study analyzed millions of marriages in census data and concluded: "However the use of almost all registered marriages and divorces between 1963 and 2005 should make the data more robust than analysis using surveys. As such, it seems reasonable to conclude that despite any popular belief to the contrary, there does not appear to be any strong association between marital age difference and probability of divorce." Ben Wilson and Steve Smallwood. "Age differences at marriage and divorce" (PDF). _Office for National Statistics_.


I see. Well if I were you then I'd still make sure she isn't the kind of person to one day take the kids and run. I would think that'd be more of a concern than her divorcing you.



Mark R said:


> I agree. Of course, we are just dating at this point to see if there is potential. I didn't choose to well in the past.


Well, if the age difference isn't too big of an issue and she doesn't see the marriage as "a project", *and* you can be fairly certain she won't run off with the kids one day, then you probably shouldn't have much to worry about other than remembering to put the toilet seat down at night. 😉


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