# Differences & similarities of 3s & 1s (especially in an NFJ)



## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

I actually find 1s & 3s easy to confuse, especially when a person is a Feeling type. Both can seem driven, organized, holding high standards, etc.



I want to generally compare & contrast them, but also with a view to typing my INFJ. 

I was leaning towards 3w4 for my INFJ, but now I'm thinking 1 (1w2?) is very plausible after reading about possible misidentifications between the two.

A few things about him:

- has a strong need to be in some position of authority, and tends to resent those who are authorities whom he doesn't see as qualified
- strong need to be admired & seem inspirational to others, likes to feel useful & needed
- can be very status conscious & ambitious, but denies it
- when stressed, has mini emotional meltdowns, but then regroups quickly
- is definitely aware of his emotions (3s supposedly are not so aware...?)
- can appear cool & aloof with people at first, but can get mawkishly sentimental with those close to him
- hates the idea of not being unique....likes to be different from others
- can neglect close family/friends by being distracted by "lesser" people seeking his help
- can be paranoid about how others view him, thinking people are out to get him or have some personal bias against him
- can be very insistent on organization, but is not mean about it & is more principle-oriented than stuck on rules....friends affectionately call him "Nazi" and "pitbull"
- can be overly critical of things because his taste is narrow & picky, but he'll admit this flaw
- has expressed he gets tired of "putting on a performance" in order to get ahead with people he thinks dislike him 
- places this emphasis on being sociable & friendly & interacting with people, but then is very quiet & reserved socially, hanging back at parties to observe
- people often view him as a bit snobby
- complains people don't do as much for him as he does for them, but it's not true


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## Delphyne (May 15, 2011)

OrangeAppled said:


> I actually find 1s & 3s easy to confuse, especially when a person is a Feeling type. Both can seem driven, organized, holding high standards, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From the things you wrote about him I don’t see anything pointing towards 1. So I’m wondering what made you lean towards 1? 
I don’t think 3s are really unware of their emotions though I’m wondering about the mini tantrums you mentioned. In addition with some other things it rather points towards 6 as a core or a fix. How ambivalent and reactive is he? Though the 3 also seems there as a fix. It rather sounds as a mix between 3 and 6. 
What’s his stacking?


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

Delphyne said:


> From the things you wrote about him I don’t see anything pointing towards 1. So I’m wondering what made you lean towards 1?
> I don’t think 3s are really unware of their emotions though I’m wondering about the mini tantrums you mentioned. In addition with some other things it rather points towards 6 as a core or a fix. How ambivalent and reactive is he? Though the 3 also seems there as a fix. It rather sounds as a mix between 3 and 6.
> What’s his stacking?



Thanks. I think you're right....I'm seeing 3 again after reading this with fresh eyes. I was leaning towards 1 because he has a persona focused on being giving, moral, & self-sacrificing. He wants to be seen as humble & useful, not be in the spotlight, but it's more tied to self-worth than an actual moral ideal, IMO. It's more like he wants to meet a moral ideal to feel valued.

He's more reactive I suppose...? I would not call him ambivalent in general. His stacking is probably so/sx. I thought the occasional moodiness might be the effects of the 4 wing, but then I considered it might be the 1 disintegration point under stress.


EDIT:

Looking at these trait lists to aid in misidentification, I'd definitely say my INFJ is not a 6. I considered it for a moment after your post, but it just doesn't fit him. 

Bolded = traits he has, italics = traits he does not have, regular = not entirely true/false. 

*Three*
_Want the spotlight_
*Success
Impressive
Composed*
Admirably smooth
*Confident appearance*
*Emotionally reserved**
*Cool
Optimistic*

*Six* 
*Avoid the spotlight*
_Security_
Dependable
_Nervous_
_Endearingly awkward_
_Visible insecurity_
_Emotionally intense_*
*Reactive*
Pessimistic


* He's only emotionally intense with a few close people; generally he appears reserved.


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## Delphyne (May 15, 2011)

Hm, Sixes are ambivalent which you don’t always find in descriptions. They are not just security-oriented but can also be careless. So it can be hard to see. Being reactive and avoiding the spotlight points rather to 6 than to 3, also what you wrote about him wanting to meet a moral ideal to feel valued. This sounds compliant. 

Though if you think 6 doesn’t really fit for a core I would go with 3. I don’t see anything you wrote pointing to 1 as a core apart from compliant stuff.


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## Scruffy (Aug 17, 2009)

Emotionally unaware is not really how'd I'd put the 3; they're more emotionally dead.

Emotions get in the way of accomplishing whatever it is, one must be aware of the emotion to properly compartmentalize the emotion. I have emotions, but I pack them into clean boxes to be sorted later.

Consciously hiding, and consciously moving emotions away from the spotlight.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

Delphyne said:


> Hm, Sixes are ambivalent which you don’t always find in descriptions. They are not just security-oriented but can also be careless. So it can be hard to see. Being reactive and avoiding the spotlight points rather to 6 than to 3, also what you wrote about him wanting to meet a moral ideal to feel valued. This sounds compliant.
> 
> Though if you think 6 doesn’t really fit for a core I would go with 3. I don’t see anything you wrote pointing to 1 as a core apart from compliant stuff.


I don't see where you get the "compliant" stuff from. He's more interested in leading than following, but is careful where he defies people so as not to screw up his chance of moving upward. He's willing to play the game to move forward, not fearful of breaking rules because he believes they have any consequence beyond ruining his aims. However, he sets his goals based on what has value in the eyes of others, which in this case is moral ideals more than financial success or other stereotypical 3 goals. For example, it's important for him to have a leadership role at his church. He's not content to be sitting on the sidelines, but he is okay with working behind the scenes. He phrases this desire to sound like an ideal to help people, but in moments where his guard is down I hear a personal ambition coming through.

I wouldn't say he is security-oriented or careless either. He's pretty moderate there.
I guess 3 is the best fit then.



Scruffy said:


> Emotionally unaware is not really how'd I'd put the 3; they're more emotionally dead.
> 
> Emotions get in the way of accomplishing whatever it is, one must be aware of the emotion to properly compartmentalize the emotion. I have emotions, but I pack them into clean boxes to be sorted later.
> 
> Consciously hiding, and consciously moving emotions away from the spotlight.


Do you think a 3 who is a Feeling type would do that to the same degree though?
Also, wouldn't the 4 wing affect this aspect a bit?


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## Scruffy (Aug 17, 2009)

I suppose it depends on what he is seeking with his image, a 3's image is flexible in that it can be whatever they see as success. Being emotionally aware might be an ideal to him, so he seeks to replicate it with the image. Actual emotion is an expensive currency for a 3, I have a hard time seeing a three not fine-tune the emotion.

If he's a feeling type, perhaps his ideal person could focused differently, but I do not believe that it would cancel a 3's relationship with emotion.

The w4 focuses a 3 towards unique presentation, often making them edgier, darker. A less polished (but ultimately exceptional) veneer, they may be a bit moodier, but less compassionate (compared to the w2's focus on other people). I'm also a 3w4, I may question the value of emotions more, but never would I consider emotion as a reflex (I can choose what to do with it). 

He sounds too soft for a 3w4, perhaps a w2? How is he, in regards to his identity?


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

Scruffy said:


> I suppose it depends on what he is seeking with his image, a 3's image is flexible in that it can be whatever they see as success. Being emotionally aware might be an ideal to him, so he seeks to replicate it with the image. Actual emotion is an expensive currency for a 3, I have a hard time seeing a three not fine-tune the emotion.
> 
> If he's a feeling type, perhaps his ideal person could focused differently, but I do not believe that it would cancel a 3's relationship with emotion.


He's very composed around most people. He's only emotional with those he's close to. So there is some compartmentalizing, like he'll turn it off when necessary. I would still call him emotional though.

There's a lack of self-awareness at times too, feeding his paranoia. He'll feel like people dislike him for no good reason, without examining himself to see if maybe he has given some reason. That could be the 2 martyr tendency though.



> The w4 focuses a 3 towards unique presentation, often making them edgier, darker. A less polished (but ultimately exceptional) veneer, they may be a bit moodier, but less compassionate (compared to the w2's focus on other people). I'm also a 3w4, I may question the value of emotions more, but never would I consider emotion as a reflex (I can choose what to do with it).
> 
> He sounds too soft for a 3w4, perhaps a w2? How is he, in regards to his identity?


I'd call him polished physically (as being polished in appearance seems important to him), but his demeanor can seem a little moody in that he comes off aloof & disinterested with people at first, but not rude. Over time, he can seem warmly interested in people & compassionate. He does have a focus on serving people, whatever his motivations are. I find this just to be typically INFJ though. He is certainly not "outgoing".

I could see a 2 wing except his focus on being unique/different is such a driving force. That's why when I was considering 1, something seemed off in that regard. He doesn't like to follow the crowd, do things the usual way, etc. He often scoffs at people using this expression "monkey see, monkey do". There's a pull with him between meeting a polished image & being drawn to offbeat stuff; he ends up coming off sort of minimalistic in an avant-garde way. I mean that in relation to both his demeanor & appearance. Sometimes he seems to have the 4 "I'm defective/not good enough" thing in his lower moments. 2s seem more...smug? But yet he's elitist like a 4 too :crazy:.

I'm not writing the 2 wing possibility off though. 

Oh, and if this helps, he reminds me a bit of Niles on Frasier. :laughing:


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## vrusimov (Jul 26, 2011)

...I see 3w4 here...most of the statements are image statements...some martyrdom statements as well...which are 2...we know that threes are the chameleons of the Enneagram...they are masters of the facade...I am what I do...If I'm not what I do then who am I?...they defend themselves aggressively (very competitive)...their Ego is apparent, like sevens and eights...prone to narcissism...they assert their self-image while comparing it to others...does he seek approval?...is he "connected" to his mother?...does he come across as hostile toward others at times?...these are all three type questions...


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## Mooncutter (Jul 28, 2011)

*We need to clear this up*

*We need to clear this up.* So he probably, like you said, has social instinct as primary instinctual variant. That explains his dis drive toward status as well. INFJ, hmpf!

*Reading you initial *description I immediately thought he was a 1. Most of what you said point toward that. Distinguishing between 3's and 1's. Both have incredibly drive. 

*3's have a restlessness* about them. They are truly impatient. Often they speak kinda fast, and can't do anything if they don't see it contributing to their immediate goals.
What defines their success, hence their goals, is entirely externally determined. They never thought it over. The formula is taken from childhood and adolence. Then they just run with it.

*3's read alot* fewer books because they are 3's. They are to impatient too do it. Even business books of their specific field.

*Simplest question* to ask him if he's a 1: Do you have a voice inside your head 24/7 driving you on, telling you to do things better, to be perfect?

*3's don't have a criticizing voice,* they're just restless. Their doing power comes from unability to sit still, like ADHD. Not because they are OBLIGED to do it, pushing them on, like ones. You can also look for self-deception, especially things about him changed to reach success.
*
If he's a 1. Then he's 1w9 or 1w2. *1w9 are easy to distinguish. They are the most emotionally rigid (possibly second to 5w6) of all subtypes AND they have the STRONGEST reasoning power. Does he have very strong reasoning power? 1w9 also uses very little body language. They are emotionally and physically rigid. 1w9's can definately do a dead-pan face when they want to.

*1w2 are not quite as serious. *Their energy is more surface level. More shallow, almost traits of extroversion. You say he wants to be different, but does he have a large creative craving he's struggling to satisfy? Like you do? 3w4 can be VERY creative. I wouldn't say he's a 3w4 unless this is the case. 3w4 are also quite self-conscious, especially when unhealthy.

*Hope this massive post helps*


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

vrusimov said:


> does he seek approval?...is he "connected" to his mother?...does he come across as hostile toward others at times?...these are all three type questions...


Yes, yes & sorta yes....I'd say "resentment" or "resistance" more than outright, angry hostility though.



Mooncutter said:


> *We need to clear this up.* So he probably, like you said, has social instinct as primary instinctual variant. That explains his dis drive toward status as well. INFJ, hmpf!
> 
> *Reading you initial *description I immediately thought he was a 1. Most of what you said point toward that. Distinguishing between 3's and 1's. Both have incredibly drive.
> 
> ...


Well, he's not a book reader (yes, a strange phenomenon for an INxx type, but they exist).
He hated school....he likes to learn by sort of being thrown into something. 

He's very goal-oriented, fixated on certain immediate goals, but still maintains a longterm vision.



> *Simplest question* to ask him if he's a 1: Do you have a voice inside your head 24/7 driving you on, telling you to do things better, to be perfect?


I will see if I can slip this into conversation at some point... :laughing:



> *3's don't have a criticizing voice,* they're just restless. Their doing power comes from unability to sit still, like ADHD. Not because they are OBLIGED to do it, pushing them on, like ones. You can also look for self-deception, especially things about him changed to reach success.


I suspect he has a criticizing voice, based on insecurities he has voiced to me.
He's an introvert, so he's not constantly on the go, but he doesn't like to sit still in the metaphorical sense. Like I said, he hates being on the sidelines.


> *If he's a 1. Then he's 1w9 or 1w2. *1w9 are easy to distinguish. They are the most emotionally rigid (possibly second to 5w6) of all subtypes AND they have the STRONGEST reasoning power. Does he have very strong reasoning power? 1w9 also uses very little body language. They are emotionally and physically rigid. 1w9's can definately do a dead-pan face when they want to.


Hmm....I think he would be 1w2 if a 1, because I don't see 9 for him. His reasoning power is not what I would call strong, but then I think I am smarter than he is (muwhahaha!). He's told me he is analytical when considering an issue, but this does not show (likely because this is his NiTi mode, done when alone). His outward reasoning seems all feeling based, often using consensus & social values to back up his conclusions. His general body language & face can seem very rigid & blank, mainly in public. People who are just acquaintances comment that he doesn't smile & that he's hard to read. In private & over time he loosens up though. Again, I thought this was an INFJ, or more specifically, a Ni thing.



> *1w2 are not quite as serious. *Their energy is more surface level. More shallow, almost traits of extroversion. You say he wants to be different, but does he have a large creative craving he's struggling to satisfy? Like you do? 3w4 can be VERY creative. I wouldn't say he's a 3w4 unless this is the case. 3w4 are also quite self-conscious, especially when unhealthy.


I'd say he does have a creative streak & likes to assert it as part of his identity. One of his top hobbies is cooking & I know he views this as an "art". He has a strong interest in interior design & seems to use these things to reflect himself (which seems quite 4 to me). He also used to draw, and when we first met he showed me the art journal he kept as a teen while traveling in Europe. I think he likes to be perceived as an artist of sorts, but doesn't pursue it as much now (and hey, neither do I...). He played it up more when we first met,because he was trying to establish that image. He also uses these things to gain some admiration (people tease him about his ego over his own cooking, as he's not modest there).

I wouldn't say he has the same creative urge I do, but then I am a 4 as my primary type.

I wouldn't say he is unhealthy, but he can be self-conscious, mainly about his appearance.

His extroversion traits are that he doesn't need as much alone time as many introverts, but he's not gregarious when around people. He's quiet & hangs back & just observes. However, he'd prefer I be in the same room doing something else & not speaking than to be totally alone. I'd rather be alone :tongue:. So he doesn't have the 3 & 2 "charm" most would expect those types. This is another reason I considered 1 for him....or a 4 wing.
Anyhow, this confused me a bit more, because it re-opened the 1 possibility :laughing:, but no worries. I'll chew it all over & reach a conclusion eventually. I'd like to get him to take a test, but I think he'd find the idea dull & resist it.


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## Mooncutter (Jul 28, 2011)

*Yea. And I feel people* RELY on those tests when they average on about 65% accuracy. That's 15% over - hey, lets toss a coin!

*Yes, he doesn't have that *inner creative urge, or that "smooth" quality of 3w2's. And he takes and moral high-ground AND is frustrated no-one lives up to it? Is it so? For me, the typing of close friends & family have always been so obvious. It's like they're standing there screaming in my face - hey - I'm this type! Did you here me? Seven with an eight wing, thats right 7w8!!!

Is his reasoning power strong relative to his intelligence?
=)


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

He "screamed" 3w4 to me when I first met him. I've been questioning it now because I was concerned I didn't give fair consideration to other types for him, especially after reading a 1 description the other day & seeing some of him in it.

No, he doesn't get frustrated with others for not living up to a moral high ground (he is not self-righteous actually), _as long as it does not affect his own status_. Or, he may resent them if they have some authority he does not, because he feels they aren't as worthy (he doesn't _exactly_ say that of course). It seems less about moral violations than resenting others "undeserved" status, but he'll sometimes phrase it as a moral issue, because he doesn't like to appear ambitious.

He's a smart guy, just not book smart, but I think he goes by his iNtuition more than rational reasoning; and then his reasoning is Fe based. I admit, as a Ji-dom, it seems less thorough to me, more inclined to jump to conclusions. I find this true of most P-dom though.

I reviewed these & these descriptions & ruled out 1 now. The 3 profiles are much clearer matches. Now it's just deciding on 3w2 or 3w4. I lean towards 3w4 still because he is aloof & so verbal about being unique.


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## Mooncutter (Jul 28, 2011)

OrangeAppled said:


> He "screamed" 3w4 to me when I first met him. I've been questioning it now because I was concerned I didn't give fair consideration to other types for him, especially after reading a 1 description the other day & seeing some of him in it.
> 
> No, he doesn't get frustrated with others for not living up to a moral high ground (he is not self-righteous actually), _as long as it does not affect his own status_. Or, he may resent them if they have some authority he does not, because he feels they aren't as worthy (he doesn't _exactly_ say that of course). It seems less about moral violations than resenting others "undeserved" status, but he'll sometimes phrase it as a moral issue, because he doesn't like to appear ambitious.
> 
> ...


*That thing about being *unique totally speaks for 3w4. When I'm unsure what type someone is, I just look at how they react under emotional pressure. 1's are the second most easy type to show outward aggression I think. (after 8's, then remove all subtypes with 8's in them)

*The 1's fundamental driving* force is active anger directed inwards, right, so directing it outwards comes fairly naturally.

3's, as I understand it, don't really rely on aggression as a way out of a tricky situation.

Edit: By the way life gave us the same deal. I'm 4w5 also. INFP, *and* SP/Sx as instinctual variant. You don't happen to be auditory based do you? As opposed to more visual.


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## Delphyne (May 15, 2011)

OrangeAppled said:


> I don't see where you get the "compliant" stuff from. He's more interested in leading than following, but is careful where he defies people so as not to screw up his chance of moving upward. He's willing to play the game to move forward, not fearful of breaking rules because he believes they have any consequence beyond ruining his aims. However, he sets his goals based on what has value in the eyes of others, which in this case is moral ideals more than financial success or other stereotypical 3 goals. For example, it's important for him to have a leadership role at his church. He's not content to be sitting on the sidelines, but he is okay with working behind the scenes. He phrases this desire to sound like an ideal to help people, but in moments where his guard is down I hear a personal ambition coming through.


Compliant used in the enneagram jargon means compliant in regards to the own superego. There are three compliant types (1,2,6) and all of them are very much in the grip of what their superego tells them to be. 
You mentioned he has a persona focused on being giving, moral, self-sacrificing and wants to be seen as humble and useful. Further that he wants to meet a moral ideal to feel valued. In your first post you mentioned he likes to feel useful and needed. All of this is compliant stuff. In comparison look what Scruffy wrote about 3s image being whatever they see as success. Being successful, being outstanding, being unique, that’s 3ish. Superego messages are along the lines of being a good, a loyal, moral, helpful and so on person. With 3 and 6 in the trifix both will be there to some degree, but what sits deeper? Not wanting to admit being status conscious could be because it goes against some of his superego messages. Maybe you can slip this into conversation too. Is being successful a goal worth striving for? Why or why not? 



> I'd say he does have a creative streak & likes to assert it as part of his identity. One of his top hobbies is cooking & I know he views this as an "art". He has a strong interest in interior design & seems to use these things to reflect himself (which seems quite 4 to me).


How sure are you of this stacking? The above makes me wonder as did having a narrow and picky taste and being reserved socially.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

Mooncutter said:


> *That thing about being *unique totally speaks for 3w4. When I'm unsure what type someone is, I just look at how they react under emotional pressure. 1's are the second most easy type to show outward aggression I think. (after 8's, then remove all subtypes with 8's in them)
> 
> *The 1's fundamental driving* force is active anger directed inwards, right, so directing it outwards comes fairly naturally.
> 
> ...


He doesn't have a lot of aggression at all. He sometimes gets anger/frustration out by kicking a soccer ball. When he gets upset, he gets pouty & whiny in a private setting, not angry.



Delphyne said:


> Compliant used in the enneagram jargon means compliant in regards to the own superego. There are three compliant types (1,2,6) and all of them are very much in the grip of what their superego tells them to be.
> You mentioned he has a persona focused on being giving, moral, self-sacrificing and wants to be seen as humble and useful. Further that he wants to meet a moral ideal to feel valued. In your first post you mentioned he likes to feel useful and needed. All of this is compliant stuff. In comparison look what Scruffy wrote about 3s image being whatever they see as success. Being successful, being outstanding, being unique, that’s 3ish. Superego messages are along the lines of being a good, a loyal, moral, helpful and so on person. With 3 and 6 in the trifix both will be there to some degree, but what sits deeper? Not wanting to admit being status conscious could be because it goes against some of his superego messages. Maybe you can slip this into conversation too. Is being successful a goal worth striving for? Why or why not?
> 
> 
> How sure are you of this stacking? The above makes me wonder as did having a narrow and picky taste and being reserved socially.


The thing is, he's reaching for success within a church, where the ideal is to be moral & self-sacrificing, but being ambitious is not. All of that stuff I say is true, and it's why I've considered 1 for him, and I don't doubt his sincerity (I think healthy/stable 3s are supposed to be genuine anyway); but in lower moments he lets on that he equates these achievements in the church with being successful. This is his new idea of success, or what he claims he has always wanted but put aside for others' ideas of success.

It's worth noting that he had something a 3 crash years ago, quitting his 12 hr a day job, selling his big fancy house & all its designer furniture, moving back in with his parents, and getting divorced. It's like he suddenly realized what he built up was not what he wanted. I've heard that 3s do this....they build up an impressive life & then realize it's empty, and then they finally discover what they want. He is nearly 40, so I can see this as a reasonable explanation for why he might be pursuing a more genuine image now & still be a 3.

As for his stacking, I am quite sure he is so dom. I'm pretty sure is he so/sx too. Even though he is quiet, aloof, etc, he orchestrates group social events, takes initiative to keep in contact with friends, maintains a full social network, likes to be the first to establish some kind of group or cause for a common goal, is very aware of power dynamics in groups, etc. Secondly, he likes intense experience & one-on-one connections. He'll focus on individuals intently once group matters are handled, so he's not a social butterfly. He's not a loner either, he'd prefer someone by his side.

As for sx, he mentions physical stuff he'd like to try for the rush, and I think his draw to food/aesthetics is less about comfort than thrill & status. Like a lot of NFJs, he has a mini STP inside, one that is very balanced though.

As an sp dom, I am crap at the so instinctual stuff, so I tend to see that as his bottom instinct. Since I have sx second, I see similarities there. We're both intense when in one-on-one situations, but less so in a group. He becomes polite, even if aloof, and detaches from himself to focus on group concerns, whereas I withdraw, focusing on my personal comforts.


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

OrangeAppled said:


> He doesn't have a lot of aggression at all. He sometimes gets anger/frustration out by kicking a soccer ball. When he gets upset, he gets pouty & whiny in a private setting, not angry.


That getting pouty and whiny sounds like a 3.


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