# INxx types have significant difficulty "fitting in?"



## Queen of Mars (Jan 10, 2015)

Hello,

So I've been reading up some studies about MBTI types and how they usually are portrayed in society, and I noticed some things:

In general, not only are ESxx types the most common in everyday life (especially in the U.S.), but they tend to also have an easier time getting along with others and they in essence fit in wherever they decide to venture to. ESxx, being both practical and social, fit in the ideal perfect human mold quite well, with ESFJ often being our society's perfect female type and ESTJ being our society's ideal male type.

ISxx and ENxx types tended to fall in the middle. Some fit in well while others did not.

Of course, introverts in general have more difficult "fitting in" with others, being that we don't talk as much and often opt out of social activities. However, INxx types especially, with the whole "hate for small talk" spiel, in general have the least advantage when it comes to social acceptance and fitting in. Now, most INxx types do not desire to fit in as much _anyway_, which is good as we never tend to do so. Although I personally as a kid, being an Fe-aux, would not have minded fitting in a little more-so than I did.

Anyway, I am more-so concerned with _why_ (and not how) our society disfavors introverted intuitive types the way they do, as I personally find any sort of segregation concerning our natural tendencies as only hurting our society and definitely not helping it. I would assume it's something to do with natural selection and evolution/biology in general, but what is your take?


So, why do you think INxx types are innately less able to relate to and get along with others in our society, and do you believe this is a bad/good thing, and should we opt to try and fix it?


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## Airess3 (Oct 14, 2014)

Yeah, I think it's because earlier in history humans were cave people, hunter gatherers etc. which stems more from the Se and Te mindset. So naturally there are more ESTJs etc. Plus, ESFJs were normally the types of females who took care of their children back in the time because of strong Fe and Si. Then somewhere along the line, humans evolved/developed and somehow N types came because people more and more got used to their environment/surroundings. Then people no longer had to fight for/kill animals to survive so introversion developed. Yeah, so I guess that's why there's fewer INxx types in the world. I don't know if my theory is a whole load of nonsense or not haha. :crazy:

One reason I find it hard to fit into society is because of the above, I use my own theories, analogies, comparisons in everyday conversations too much and I've found that most Sensors dismiss things which don't have any data to back it up. Plus, there are many times when they have found my theories "weird" because they cannot understand/grasp what I'm saying. I've been told that I speak too abstractly, in an intangible way. But all the N types understand me. And we're not interested in small talk/everyday stuff, preferring the deeper topics instead and Sensors don't seem to like deep talk as much as us, so we are further ostracised.

In a way I think it does more good than bad and I don't think we should fix it, this may sound self-aggrandising but I think E/INxx types should be the leaders of the world because we really have a lot of innovative, original ideas/visions that often get dismissed by the more grounded people. And we are normally the ones that make a change in the world because we pave out our own paths and don't go down the road that's already been travelled. So my advice to E/INxx types is to put yourself out there by doing your own thing.


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## knife (Jul 10, 2013)

Every time I see that avvie of yours @Queen of Mars it makes me :blushed:

:kitteh:

Anyway.

The biggest reason, I suspect, why the societal norm (though not quite the idealization) is for ESFJ women and ESTJ (I would argue ISTJ, actually) men is this:










SJs comprise half the population _by themselves!_ All of the intuitives and SPs would have to work in concert to overcome that natural bias.










All of the INxx types together comprise a measly 11.3% of the population. This is less than _three_ of the four SJ types! (I actually find the relative rarity of ESTJs surprising: they are noticeably less common than their guardian counterparts.) The numbers are just plain against us. We have difficulty fitting in because we really are, numerically, society's oddballs. And it's very difficult to explain how you think to someone who, fundamentally, doesn't think the same way as you. It's vox populi -- that's all there really is to it. If there were more of us, we would have an easier time fitting in.

There are definitely places I find intuitives tend to concentrate to the exclusion of sensors. Academia, for example. Certain types of inclusionary religious groups. Intuitives often find geek environments and fora significantly easier to handle (or at least I do). I've also found that I appreciate SPs more than other sensors, as they can act like a bridge between the SJs (who are, in some ways, unfathomably foreign) and us. But ... I don't think we're going to be less marginalized for some time to come.


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## UnicornRainbowLove (May 8, 2014)

In my mind being an SJ is your typologically best indicator for fitting in. A lot of ESFPs are misfits and ESTPs will in many cases be considered to be too rough or independently thinking to be part of an "us." SJs in general just make worlds where it is possible to fit into, and if you combine that with their massive overrepresentation that @knife mentions, you get why other types quickly get issues. 

Those who wield extraverted intuition will naturally avoid routines and roles - if they made the world there might be few norms to fit into - and if Ti or Fi is your dominant function that creates your own sense of truth and value, you're just doomed to be society's oddball. 

I find that Ni-doms are better at fitting in on the surface, but deep inside they'll always feel very different from the general public.

It should be noted that there exists places where SJs are misfits. When I studied physics, which is very N-heavy, you'd get judged quite badly if you adhered to too many of the ordinary norms of society. On the whole this website is probably not the most SJ friendly either.


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## ElliCat (May 4, 2014)

UnicornRainbowLove said:


> Those who wield extraverted intuition will naturally avoid routines and roles - *if they made the world there might be few norms to fit into* - and if Ti or Fi is your dominant function that creates your own sense of truth and value, you're just doomed to be society's oddball.


On the other hand, there would be a lot of unfinished projects, miscommunications ("what do you mean I should have told you? wasn't it _obvious_?!?!!), grand ideas implemented with key practical details missing/stuffing the whole thing up... yeah pretty sure keeping society together isn't our strong suit. 

Ideally we'd all have our place in society where we could play to our strengths - bringing in and testing new ideas, long-term planning for the Ni folks, etc etc - but I guess in practice humans are kind of crappy at playing together nicely. 

I knew one INFJ woman who seemed to fit in, but who also isolated herself a lot in her free time, probably to recharge. But I also know another who somehow always stuck out like a sore thumb, even as a young kid. Likewise my very extraverted sister had a worse time at primary school than I did, and I'm 99,9% sure she's a Sensor and a Feeler, so you know, not always a guarantee...

Agree that not all spaces are SJ-friendly. I personally have felt a lot of pressure to be like that, being a female, growing up in a conservative small town, and having mostly worked in customer service. But I've been part of NT-safe spaces at university, and in my current course I've met more IxFP's than I probably have ever known in my life. Not to mention online being more introvert- and intuitive-friendly in general.


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## Airess3 (Oct 14, 2014)

UnicornRainbowLove said:


> In my mind being an SJ is your typologically best indicator for fitting in. A lot of ESFPs are misfits and ESTPs will in many cases be considered to be too rough or independently thinking to be part of an "us." SJs in general just make worlds where it is possible to fit into, and if you combine that with their massive overrepresentation that @knife mentions, you get why other types quickly get issues.
> 
> Those who wield extraverted intuition will naturally avoid routines and roles - if they made the world there might be few norms to fit into - and if Ti or Fi is your dominant function that creates your own sense of truth and value, you're just doomed to be society's oddball.
> 
> ...


Yup, we're both doomed. But I'm studying physics at uni right now and I still feel like a misfit, even though it's only first year and I'm too shy to talk to people. I only have an INFP and ISTP as friends, although I still find that the rest of the class talk about interesting things.


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## UnicornRainbowLove (May 8, 2014)

@ElliCat Extraverted intuition could be quite wasteful for society if it tried out too many things that didn't work or weren't pulled though, yes. It is quite conceiveably, however, more likely to try to fix problems and injustices compared to a content and traditionalist world. I guess the bottom line is that both are important for balance. 
Actually I believe that if INxx's ran the world it would be a lot more socialist simply because those types are the least interested in the day-to-day survival and take the least pride in managing money and being able to take care of themselves, so if they could they would automatize it as much as possible. 
@Airess3 Hehe, I didn't really fit in either. I guess INP types just often have a natural tendency to avoid fitting in. I know I do.


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## Highway Nights (Nov 26, 2014)

I think the INxx types tend to stereotypically be the "weird kids" or the "nerds". Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with that, especially when you leave grade school behind. Generally, INTJs and INFPs seem to get the worst of it.


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## ElliCat (May 4, 2014)

Airess3 said:


> Yup, we're both doomed. But I'm studying physics at uni right now and I still feel like a misfit, even though it's only first year and I'm too shy to talk to people. I only have an INFP and ISTP as friends, although I still find that the rest of the class talk about interesting things.


Both awesome types.  I felt like a misfit my first time around as well, but I wonder how many INxx types I missed out on meeting, just because I was too shy to strike up a conversation with people. I suspect most of us are hiding...



UnicornRainbowLove said:


> @ElliCat Extraverted intuition could be quite wasteful for society if it tried out too many things that didn't work or weren't pulled though, yes. It is quite conceiveably, however, more likely to try to fix problems and injustices compared to a content and traditionalist world. I guess the bottom line is that both are important for balance.
> Actually I believe that if INxx's ran the world it would be a lot more socialist simply because those types are the least interested in the day-to-day survival and take the least pride in managing money and being able to take care of themselves, so if they could they would automatize it as much as possible.


Yeah I agree, that would certainly be the upside of it. Less "that'll never work so don't even think about trying it" and more trial and error until we find something that _does_ work. Wouldn't that be wonderful? As far as society goes, I think the Ji types in particular would be more likely to just keep out of each others' way, and maybe just congregate according to shared beliefs, coming and going as they please. More automation would be nice, provided we remembered to actually, you know, maintain it. XD

Having said all that... I do think we need more influence in the shaping of policy, because it seems like governments are just content to keep trying the same thing over and over and keep failing. So it would be nice to be taken a bit more seriously, I suppose. But on the other hand I can see why things are the way they are.


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## UnicornRainbowLove (May 8, 2014)

ElliCat said:


> Yeah I agree, that would certainly be the upside of it. Less "that'll never work so don't even think about trying it" and more trial and error until we find something that _does_ work. Wouldn't that be wonderful? As far as society goes, I think the Ji types in particular would be more likely to just keep out of each others' way, and maybe just congregate according to shared beliefs, coming and going as they please. More automation would be nice, provided we remembered to actually, you know, maintain it. XD
> 
> Having said all that... I do think we need more influence in the shaping of policy, because it seems like governments are just content to keep trying the same thing over and over and keep failing. So it would be nice to be taken a bit more seriously, I suppose. But on the other hand I can see why things are the way they are.


I keep thinking that politics today are simply too complicated. The system is a collection of continuations of old rules that protect institutions founded over a hundred years ago that due to time and society's change of needs have evolved into a Gordian knot that'll seemingly fall on itself if just a tiny string gets stretched the wrong way. Why not rethink the whole thing once every 25 years or so? It bothers me! 
... see? this is why NPs are not in charge. This is page one and I'm already way off topic.


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## ElliCat (May 4, 2014)

UnicornRainbowLove said:


> I keep thinking that politics today are simply too complicated. The system is a collection of continuations of old rules that protect institutions founded over a hundred years ago that due to time and society's change of needs have evolved into a Gordian knot that'll seemingly fall on itself if just a tiny string gets stretched the wrong way. Why not rethink the whole thing once every 25 years or so? It bothers me!


Sounds like a similar reason for me not going into politics (well, that and not actually living in the country, and no interest in being in the public eye...). If there was a chance of doing some actual good I might think about it but nup... I just keep enough of an eye on it all so I know what I'm voting for. 



> ... see? this is why NPs are not in charge. This is page one and I'm already way off topic.


My point exactly.  But what's the point in having a point if you can't move on to find other points?


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## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

As a very introverted EN, I can see this... and now that I think about it, it's pretty sure. My INFP friends struggle(d) to fit in. My INTJ friend struggled to fit in. My INTP friend struggled to fit in. My INFx friend who thinks he's Ni/Fe but really doesn't realize that he is the quintessential INFP definitely struggled with that. 

I just feel like it's not the case for every INxx though? I know some people of these types who excel in life, who somehow are endearing and witty and find many friends and a place within their worlds. But then again, that's my Fe perspective on the bigger picture, maybe deep down they don't feel like they fit in either. 

Interesting theory though. Interesting thread. 

Oh, and being 4/5 in enneagram might have something to do with it. Off the top of my head, all the friends I mentioned above save maybe one of them is probably a 4 (the remaining one a 5), and I think that being very withdrawn socially (as a 5 or 4) and having the desires of a 4 could easily isolate someone, especially an INxx.


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## Queen of Mars (Jan 10, 2015)

alittlebear said:


> As a very introverted EN, I can see this... and now that I think about it, it's pretty sure. My INFP friends struggle(d) to fit in. My INTJ friend struggled to fit in. My INTP friend struggled to fit in. My INFx friend who thinks he's Ni/Fe but really doesn't realize that he is the quintessential INFP definitely struggled with that.
> 
> I just feel like it's not the case for every INxx though? I know some people of these types who excel in life, who somehow are endearing and witty and find many friends and a place within their worlds. But then again, that's my Fe perspective on the bigger picture, maybe deep down they don't feel like they fit in either.
> 
> ...


The enneagram definitely plays a part. Fours and fives have this thing with individuality, it's like we have to know who we are and be unique, even if it's hard for us. (Being an Fe-aux, I don't really know who I am without respect to others.)


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## Queen of Mars (Jan 10, 2015)

Airess3 said:


> Yeah, I think it's because earlier in history humans were cave people, hunter gatherers etc. which stems more from the Se and Te mindset. So naturally there are more ESTJs etc. Plus, ESFJs were normally the types of females who took care of their children back in the time because of strong Fe and Si. Then somewhere along the line, humans evolved/developed and somehow N types came because people more and more got used to their environment/surroundings. Then people no longer had to fight for/kill animals to survive so introversion developed. Yeah, so I guess that's why there's fewer INxx types in the world. I don't know if my theory is a whole load of nonsense or not haha. :crazy:
> 
> One reason I find it hard to fit into society is because of the above, I use my own theories, analogies, comparisons in everyday conversations too much and I've found that most Sensors dismiss things which don't have any data to back it up. Plus, there are many times when they have found my theories "weird" because they cannot understand/grasp what I'm saying. I've been told that I speak too abstractly, in an intangible way. But all the N types understand me. And we're not interested in small talk/everyday stuff, preferring the deeper topics instead and Sensors don't seem to like deep talk as much as us, so we are further ostracised.
> 
> In a way I think it does more good than bad and I don't think we should fix it, this may sound self-aggrandising but I think E/INxx types should be the leaders of the world because we really have a lot of innovative, original ideas/visions that often get dismissed by the more grounded people. And we are normally the ones that make a change in the world because we pave out our own paths and don't go down the road that's already been travelled. So my advice to E/INxx types is to put yourself out there by doing your own thing.


Oh, your idea that N types are relatively new due to not being needing previously for seriously is something I've thought of a lot before!

I've been recently pondering why Ni dom's and aux's are the least common type. I've been pondering the possibility that Ni is possibly the newest developed cognitive function, only developing when society began taking it's great leaps?


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## Queen of Mars (Jan 10, 2015)

knife said:


> Every time I see that avvie of yours @Queen of Mars it makes me :blushed:
> 
> :kitteh:
> 
> ...


:kitteh:

Interesting. From this I can infer that ISxJ's are the most common types. I wonder what this has to say about evolution...

Maybe I should make a new thread strictly relating to the development of cognitive functions through evolution, I've been thinking of that recently :th_love:

Also, I agree that SPs are easier to get along with than SJs. They're more open to new ideas usually.


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## Grandalf (Jun 7, 2014)

We're like jews..... 

Why Do People Hate The Jews?


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## Queen of Mars (Jan 10, 2015)

JA Grey said:


> We're like jews.....
> 
> Why Do People Hate The Jews?


What if I told you that my family is Jewish. Not me or my immediate family, we're all atheists. But my cousins and grandparents...hard core conservatives and Jews...


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## Highway Nights (Nov 26, 2014)

Queen of Mars said:


> Oh, your idea that N types are relatively new due to not being needing previously for seriously is something I've thought of a lot before!
> 
> I've been recently pondering why Ni dom's and aux's are the least common type. I've been pondering the possibility that Ni is possibly the newest developed cognitive function, only developing when society began taking it's great leaps?


Possibly, but I don't think society would have formed at all without Ni. The transformation from hunter gatherers to agriculture societies is a huge leap. It has the kind of transformative element to it usually associated with Ni. Not to say that the first cavemen who started farming were necessarily envisioning Ancient Rome, the moon landings, or that underwater hotel in Dubai, but they did have to almost completely restructure their society.


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## Makro (Mar 11, 2015)

Rebelgoatalliance said:


> Possibly, but I don't think society would have formed at all without Ni. The transformation from hunter gatherers to agriculture societies is a huge leap. It has the kind of transformative element to it usually associated with Ni. Not to say that the first cavemen who started farming were necessarily envisioning Ancient Rome, the moon landings, or that underwater hotel in Dubai, but they did have to almost completely restructure their society.


It is so easy for me to agree with that. :laughing: It reminded me that there are people who see certain nations in our current world as specific types, and I wonder if there's some connection between sets of widespread attributes and the broader moves or even advances that a nation makes in a world full of various nations.


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## Blessed Frozen Cells (Apr 3, 2013)

I'm an iconoclast (5w4) so questioning all the traditions and rules really does not help me when I try to fit in with a certain group lol


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