# Correlation between MBTI type and astrological sign?



## MrSmashem

@Functianalyst

*This is not about getting results, it’s not even about whether horoscopes or astrology works or can predict the future. It's merely a question as to whether there is a correlation.* If two people can have the same Astrological Sign and act completely different, then I can't see there being a correlation, as they would fall under different MBTI types while still being under the same Sign. Example: An old friend of mine and dad were both born under the same sign, yet my friend is an ENFJ and my dad is an ISFJ.

*I always warn others to be careful of putting type on a pedestal while bashing astrology since type originates from Jung's interest in astrology. You have a disdain for astrology… I get it.* I don't have any disdain for Astrology and I'm not, "bashing" it, I just don't see any accuracy in it.

*I am not here to defend whether the subject works, although if you are calling astrology a prediction of the future then you’re clearly not up to speed on the subject. There are horoscopes and there is astrology.* The site you provided a link for in this thread http://www.astro.com/prod/pr_free_e.htm, had a lot of that future telling garbage. Here are a few quotes directly from a piece of my, "Personal Portrait," via the link you provided.

"At some point in your life, after the occurrence of a major dramatic event that will affect you deeply, the goal and entire expression of your ego may alter entirely."

"In any case, expect a fortune which holds variation and fluctuation. "

"Money will stream in regularly and readily without excessive effort or preoccupation. "

"As you reach mature age, the doors of opportunity will open for you through persons highly placed in government. Don't miss the chance."

I could go on.

*Nevertheless as for you and your mother, first you’re not a sensing type unless you changed your type. You’re a thinking type.* I said we are, "Sensing oriented." We are both Sensors.

*As for your mom, did she actually confirm her type or is this your perception of someone you see playing the role of a parent? Do you truly believe someone being a good parent will appear as anything but a SJ type since that is the temperament that governs the parenting institution?* She has been tested and even did a self-assessment. Both resulted in her being an SP. I have assessed her myself, as well(from an unbiased standpoint) and I completely agree with her being an SP...there is no way she is an iNtuitive or a Judger.

And I don't think you can pin SJ's as, "good parents"...I think a, "good parent" has more to do with how a parent responds according to the individual needs of the child. My dad is an SJ(also tested and self assessed) and he caused more problems than anything, raising me.

*You should know by now there is no absolutes when discussing the human psyche, and as stated it’s a mere discussion of correlation. I am sure you do not fit the bill of the SP type entirely and you may have an enneagram type that is completely out of whack with the ISTP type.* Of course there are no absolutes, but you can only stretch a description/type so far before you have to say, "All right. This doesn't even apply to him/her."

*Yet there are plenty of studies correlating the systems.* Yeah, they _are_ all correlated. They all have a similar goal in mind. That doesn't mean they are all equally as accurate.

Again, my element is Fire(intuition) along with my mother and we are in no way iNtuitive. I fail to see a correlation on that level. And if there were a correlation on that level between Astrology and MBTI/Jung, we would have no need to study in to MBTI/Jung. There would be no, figuring out our types. We could just say, "Oh I was born under this sign...I guess that means I'm an (x)."


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## Dreamer

I think of INFP's as either a Pisces, Aquarius or Virgo for some reason. I'm really into Astrology 

Since someone else was doing it, I'll post what It says about me on that Astro site. (which I'm already a member of ^_^)



> Sun and Moon in Taurus You were born with both the Sun and the Moon in Taurus. You are a quiet and persistent individual. You never give in to irrational impulses, unless your patience has been tried to its limits. Once you set your mind on a goal you are driven by such strong determination that you are assured of reaching it. You like clear, well-defined, solid ideas, and tangible things. Because it is so important to you, you will acquire wealth all through your life, and your daily activities will involve handling tangible goods. It is likely that you are a highly sensuous person, deriving much pleasure from knowledge and from the experiences of your senses. You are sociable, and able and willing to help others with their problems. Though you possess the patience of Job, you may explode with volcanic force when you reach the limits of your patience. Since so much of your nature is placid and steady, these outbursts can wreck your inner equilibrium and should be avoided.





> Ascendant in Aquarius, Uranus in the Twelfth House At the time of your birth the zodiacal sign of Aquarius was ascending in the horizon. Its ruler Uranus is located in the twelfth house. You were born with a natural disposition to be humane, sympathetic, original and refined in your dealings with others. Among your features is the ability to understand human nature in a sympathetic manner. Unfortunately, you do not always act upon your intuitions and may become rationalistic at times when swift and prompt determination is required. The common Aquarian is good and kindly, but usually led astray by eccentric and bizarre companions. Your tastes are refined and your discrimination keen. You have a natural inclination toward the esoteric and mystical side of life and you could develop some clairvoyant abilities. Basically you are a lover of freedom; in the realization of this desire you may go to extremes. Although changeable in appearance, your life is guided by very definite and fixed principles, one of which is a constant demand for personal freedom. In love you are a strange character. You can easily be emotionally attracted to one person and yet unpredictably terminate relationships. As an inventor you have no rival; your problem is that sometimes you lack the practical ability to implement your creations. Professionally you will be successful in any of the following fields of activity: modern science, electrical work, photography, archaeology, astrology, radio etc. In general terms this position indicates that very important characteristics of your personality are hidden from the public. It appears that your worldly interests are quite out of the ordinary or that at least you are interested in romantic and mysterious adventures. You should be allowed to express yourself more freely in the various relationships in which you are involved on a day-to-day basis. A word of advice: you are one of those people who should not attempt to be involved in psychic activities for you are liable to suffer thereof, especially from a financial point of view, due to excessive enthusiasm. You do possess certain interesting and hidden characteristics which, if expressed, may afford some unsuspecting benefits to various aspects of your existence. Intuited knowledge and strokes of good luck could yield benefit.


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## Functianalyst

xReBoRN7 said:


> The site you provided a link for in this thread Free Horoscopes - Astrodienst, had a lot of that future telling garbage. Here are a few quotes directly from a piece of my, "Personal Portrait," via the link you provided.


I also referred to *this* one.


xReBoRN7 said:


> And I don't think you can pin SJ's as, "good parents"...I think a, "good parent" has more to do with how a parent responds according to the individual needs of the child. My dad is an SJ(also tested and self assessed) and he caused more problems than anything, raising me.


I said SJ is the temperament that governs the parenting institution, the same as NT governs the academic institution, NF the political institution, etc. No one ever said SJs make good parents.


xReBoRN7 said:


> Again, my element is Fire(intuition) along with my mother and we are in no way iNtuitive. I fail to see a correlation on that level. And if there were a correlation on that level between Astrology and MBTI/Jung, we would have no need to study in to MBTI/Jung. There would be no, figuring out our types. We could just say, "Oh I was born under this sign...I guess that means I'm an (x)."


Fair enough but as for your last statement, I am unsure of your moms age, but ask her is she remembers the phrase, "Hey baby what's your sign", and what that meant? X you're really not going to argue that planetary alignment can't determine your type after claiming an assessment can, are you? My point is I have no vested interest in saying one is better or worse than the other, since both are merely based on archetype theory.


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## MrSmashem

I suppose it's possible planetary alignment could affect our personalities. After all, theres no way to prove it does or doesn't. I'm saying, that the only tangible results and data Astrology gives are bogus and completely inaccurate for a vast percentage of the population. Meanwhile, MBTI/Jung has a lot more tangible accuracies and validity.

I don't understand what's so hard to understand about what I'm saying.

According to Astrology, I'm a Sagittarius. I read the description(all I've ever seen Astrology give) and it's wrong. I look at friends/family...it's wrong for them too.Nothing fits. No evidence it may be true/accurate.

Then I look at MBTI. According to it, I'm an ISTP...description not 100%, but close. Childhood/relationships/work ethic etc. all matches up well. Again, I look at friends/family...it's accurate for them as well.


MBTI-1(many tangible accuracies)
Astrology-0(no/few tangible accuracies)

Again, both are theories and neither should be seen as fact, but MBTI has a lot more going for it, based on what I've seen, than Astrology does.

Maybe the planets' alignment does have something to do with our personality, but whoever tried to interpret their affects on us was completely off...and that's why Astrology is inaccurate for so many people.


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## Themis_

There hasn't been a time were I've believed in astrology less than I do while reading this bologna.


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## Functianalyst

Themis_ said:


> There hasn't been a time were I've believed in astrology less than I do while reading this bologna.


The opposite of love is not hate, and the opposite of believing is not disbelieving. The opposite of both is indifference. Do you truly believe an atheists is no more compassionate as a believer? So I always wonder the motive of people having to actually post their disdain on a subject they claim to have no interest in, when they can easily move on to another thread?:wink: Surely you're not trying to rack up post, so is it your way of asking a question or do you have information to render a claim that it is bologna?


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## Themis_

Functianalyst said:


> The opposite of love is not hate, and the opposite of believing is not disbelieving. The opposite is indifference, so I always wonder the motive of people having to actually post their disdain on a subject they claim to have no interest in, when they can easily move on to another thread.:wink: Is it because they find a need to rack up post? Or are do they truly want to understand what it is they believe to claim is bologna?


I need attention, duh. Nah, I have a right to my opinion, and frankly I like seeing a variety of feedback, I like seeing things I disagree with. It broadens your horizons and sh*t. Am I allowed to curse here? I'm new. 

Your're nicely worded yet oppressive letter is passive aggressive and frightening. But I don't want to make enemies for expressing my opinion! Nooooo! Curses!


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## Functianalyst

Themis_ said:


> I need attention, duh. Nah, I have a right to my opinion, and frankly I like seeing a variety of feedback, I like seeing things I disagree with. It broadens your horizons and sh*t. Am I allowed to curse here? I'm new.


Oh you're absolutely free to state your opinion. But I was hoping to learn myself. But if you are only providing your opinion then can I assume you truly don't know?


Themis_ said:


> Your're nicely worded yet oppressive letter is passive aggressive and frightening. But I don't want to make enemies for expressing my opinion! Nooooo! Curses!


It was actually my attempt to refrain from telling you what I really thought since I truly am indifferent to the subject. But unlike you, I am open to learning and find the closed mindedness of some frightening as well. But I think that goes more to the fact that INJs again are no different than ISJs in that they both can use their auxiliary functions (Te/Fe) to close off information created by the dominant functions (Ni/Si). Welcome to the forum Themis.


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## MCRTS

I think ISFJS are a lot like Taurus. Needs stability, warm, passive-aggressive, good at taking care of the home, loves the finer things in life and loves craft.

ESFPs seem to be like Sagittarius. Like the freedom loving archer, ESFPs love interacting with people, parties, fun, but can be impulsive, brash and tactless.


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## alionsroar

I don't really believe in astrology. But hey, libra is both my sun and ascendent star. And it is an air sign which is supposedly about balance and intellect. I don't really have much of either, but I am a type 9, Ti dominant.

Oh but I guess I missed out on the charming, social part of librans


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## Spades

I'd be curious to see an article indicating correlation, but I highly doubt it. Unless we're allowed to read about all the astrological types and assign ourselves one. Then there would probably be much more correlation, such as Aries, 8's, and iNtuitive's (all of which I am, coincidentally).


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## Functianalyst

Economica said:


> When I first sent my ENTP friend Blackwater the link to an MBTI test back in 2005 and we got our results and read the type descriptions which he had to acknowledge were accurate, he was very skeptical and assumed we were suffering from confirmation bias and the Forer effect. He immediately set to the task of testing whether MBTI was any more accurate than astrological signs. He elicited the birthdays of everyone we knew and was very diligent about comparing the descriptions to see whether astrology scored as many points as MBTI, but pretty quickly he gave up as MBTI just did tons better than astrology.
> 
> Since then he has put enough stock in MBTI that he is my coadmin at Celebrity Types!


*First I want to make it clear I have no dog in this fight. Whether there is a correlation or not, the point is anyone attempting to discredit astrology by means of MBTI are barking up the wrong tree. * Jung's theory is based on astrological archetypes. 

Secondly to respond here, there are two basic principles I would ask. Did you and your friend base your findings on the actual or real astrological signs as indicated *here*, or did you consider descriptions based on astrology from the Western culture? The latter got it wrong, so for example someone claiming to be Gemini may actually be Taurus. 

Another point is basing someone's description on a sun sign is about as correct as someone basing their type on being an extravert or introvert only. There is more to astrology than the sun sign, to include planetary alignment at the time of birth, which means there are a number of planets that will also affect one's personality. Basing your theory on a sun sign makes not sense.


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## StrixAluco

Functianalyst said:


> Secondly to respond here, there are two basic principles I would ask. Did you and your friend base your findings on the actual or real astrological signs as indicated *here*, or did you consider descriptions based on astrology from the Western culture? The latter got it wrong, so for example someone claiming to be Gemini may actually be Taurus.


The correlation which had been established on this forum (and some of the links which have been provided) are mostly about the "fasle" astrological signs. There is some lack of coherence (and reliable sources) here, which may explain why so many people are not following this idea.

Anyway, my question is: are these signs widely recognised by astrology or not? It seems to me that the correction was made by people who cared little about the personality profiles at first.

-Astrology is cultural, the signs are different in some parts of the world. What are we to think about that and how are we supposed to deal with them?

I am not going to talk about the correlation and about how my twin brother and I have basically the same profile but different types since correlation are really systematic and I will not make a whole post about how typing systems are relative and an introspective tool which could be improved and become more accurate rather than a truth but I wonder how could astrology, even when going through a complete profile, be clearly serious?

What kind of concrete evidence of our personality being influenced by visible planets do we have?


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## Functianalyst

StrixAluco said:


> What kind of concrete evidence of our personality being influenced by visible planets do we have?


Excellent question and the same one I have for type. They're both immeasurable systems as is the enneagram. The immeasurable comes from the fact that contrary to belief science is not exact (how many super earths were recently found) and the many facets of personality will always be an enigma and non-quanttitive.


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## StrixAluco

Functianalyst said:


> Excellent question and the same one I have for type. They're both immeasurable systems as is the enneagram. The immeasurable comes from the fact that contrary to belief science is not exact (how many super earths were recently found) and the many facets of personality will always be an enigma and non-quanttitive.


This is why I personally think that typing in general is a useful introspective tool rather than a mean to categorize people and determine truly their personality (it is also, depending on the system, more about processing informations than personality).

While I admit that science is not exact and that knowledge progress with time (and it's a good thing considering that if it were, we would have nothing to learn), I don't find interest in Astrology (and little in enneagram for almost the same reasons) because it's not about learning about yourself, in this specific case, but about drawing specific portraits of people based on the universe and it's supposed influence on us. I don't see the discovery in it, nor the reflection and this is why I think this system is extremely different from MBTI (which is very interesting but perhaps not accurate and could probably be improved).

The research on new signs, etc. doesn't make it much better. 

You proposed both a traditional portrait of people and their personality ("normal" signs) and the new one (which is probably weaker considering that it is not really taken into consideration, therefore the portraits drawn will be much more general) so it's still not very coherent.

What are we supposed to think of that? Does that mean: well, if you don't relate to traditional sign, try the new ones and it will work?

The description I've been given on the website you used as a source was contradictory and weak, it's basically as accurate and useful as the general descriptions of types or the main dichotomies even though it takes into consideration more than just the Sun Sign. There is no explanation of the system and the interpretation though I guess we could find one (but the knowledge will probably seem antiquated and open to interpretation).

And I still wonder what we are supposed to do with other astrological systems (since we're only talking about the western one here). If we're to take one system seriously, why not take our time to study other alternatives?


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## Functianalyst

StrixAluco said:


> While I admit that science is not exact and that knowledge progress with time (and it's a good thing considering that if it were, we would have nothing to learn), I don't find interest in Astrology (and little in enneagram for almost the same reasons) because it's not about learning about yourself, in this specific case, but about drawing specific portraits of people based on the universe and it's supposed influence on us. I don't see the discovery in it, nor the reflection and this is why I think this system is extremely different from MBTI (which is very interesting but perhaps not accurate and could probably be improved).


This is indicative of using Ti. We go with what is interesting and attempt to make an objective argument of what we don't like. But is it really objective, when what we are admitting is that we don't find the subject interesting enough to study the principles?


StrixAluco said:


> The research on new signs, etc. doesn't make it much better.


Actually Strix, the western culture is new. The 13 signs were the original ones used thousands of years ago by the Babylonians. The western culture moved away from it due to (arguably) the superstition of the number 13 and because scientifically it was easier to divide the year into 12 signs than 13.

You proposed both a traditional portrait of people and their personality ("normal" signs) and the new one (which is probably weaker considering that it is not really taken into consideration, therefore the portraits drawn will be much more general) so it's still not very coherent.[/QUOTE]


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## coronzon93

Astrology and MBTI, while I wish they were, simply do not correlate. both are indicators of traits that one is predisposed to, but they cannot relate in a clean way. Personality typologies are also a lot less complex. I am trying to find a way that the 2 types of data relate, but it is a daunting task. Astrology has a torrential flow of data: Tropical, Sidereal, Cosmobiology, Hamburg and Vedic are just types of Astrology. The actual data an astrologer conciders include placements, aspects and midpoints involving: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, eptune, Pluto, Chiron, Ceres, Pallas Athena, Juno, Vesta, Vertex/Anti-Vertex, North/South nodes of the Lunar Orbit, Lilith, and the TNPs (Cupido, Hades, Zeus, Kronos, Apollon, Admetos, Vulkanus and Poseidon). if anyone was interested, I'm INTX and a Solar Libra, Tropical Zodiac. I do not believe in fate, we have and should follow our wills. Nothing is preordained, only predisposed. nothing is absolute, only likely.


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## Functianalyst

coronzon93 said:


> Astrology and MBTI, while I wish they were, simply do not correlate. both are indicators of traits that one is predisposed to, but they cannot relate in a clean way.


Actually, nothing correlates cleanly to one another or MBTI, contrary to what others may believe. Temperament is the study of a group of types with similar core values. ISTP and INFJ types routinely fail to relate to their respective temperament values and sometimes causes people to mistype as NT types. MBTI does not completely relate to the enneagram types since they measure different parts of the personality. MBTI does not relate to Jung because the cognitive functions are fluid in use, not static as is the four-letter dichotomous codes.


coronzon93 said:


> Personality typologies are also a lot less complex. I am trying to find a way that the 2 types of data relate, but it is a daunting task. Astrology has a torrential flow of data: Tropical, Sidereal, Cosmobiology, Hamburg and Vedic are just types of Astrology. The actual data an astrologer conciders include placements, aspects and midpoints involving: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, eptune, Pluto, Chiron, Ceres, Pallas Athena, Juno, Vesta, Vertex/Anti-Vertex, North/South nodes of the Lunar Orbit, Lilith, and the TNPs (Cupido, Hades, Zeus, Kronos, Apollon, Admetos, Vulkanus and Poseidon). if anyone was interested, I'm INTX and a Solar Libra, Tropical Zodiac.


First people generally take about as much interest in type as they do any other personality system including astrology. They learn the very basics and then struggle the rest of the time with knowing the principles of the system, and ultimately claim bad grapes when they fail to comprehend. 

This is indicative in observing people claiming the inferiority of the enneagram while admitting they don’t fully understand it. I see it also in type where people try to explain their confusion of type based on dichotomies. Usually it’s not the system to blame, it’s our inability to comprehend it. I admit I am clueless to how astrology completely works and do not have enough interest to study it. But I do respect the fact that it is one of many systems developed to determine personality. It’s no better or worse than the enneagram, Socionics, numerology, MBTI, temperament and type (notice the intentional separation of the last 3 systems). 

But Coronozon this again is where I understand the two systems match up in very basic and general ways, based on sun signs and dominant cognitive functions:

Fire (Aries, Leo, Sagittarius) = Ne/Ni
Earth (Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn) = Se/Si
Air (Gemini, Libra, Aquarius) = Te/Ti
Water (Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces) = Fe/Fi

The problem as stated in my last post, is that these estimates are based on western culture’s version of astrological signs. With Ophiuchus added to the equation, it does make the correlation a bit harder.


coronzon93 said:


> I do not believe in fate, we have and should follow our wills. Nothing is preordained, only predisposed. nothing is absolute, only likely.


This is where most struggle with astrology. As I understand it horoscopes preordain, astrology is about personality type. I will always find it interesting that we claim one’s life cannot be preordained based on planetary alignment, yet in the same breath claim one can consider what career to choose and who would be the perfect relationship matched, all based on a test that even when professionally administered renders 66% accuracy. It’s not a belief in astrology on my part, it’s the hypocrisy and ignorance shown in the same of science that chaps my hide. Reality check folks, no one has provided any evidence other than their opinion that any of the systems are more superior than the other. Good post Coronzon, thank you.


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## Apollo Celestio

Sun in Taurus, 
Moon in Gemini *Ascendant in Capricorn, Saturn in the Eleventh House *Venus in the Second House *Sun in the Third House *Moon in the Fourth House *Saturn in the Eleventh House 


INTJ... the personal profile wasn't very accurate for me. It paints me as a freaking ESTJ who is a social ladder climbing toolbag who is good with money. 

I did a little research too, the "profile" one fit me the least. I was never really one to take astrology seriously, and this research has proven unfavorable to it's cause. I also have an INFP twin brother, which especially screws things up.


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## Resolute

Astrology is based on something called cold reading. 

"Cold reading is a series of techniques used by mentalists, psychics, fortune-tellers, illusionists, and con artists to determine or express details about another person, often in order to convince them that the reader knows much more about a subject than they actually do." - From Wikipedia

The fact is the descriptions on astrological charts and books are written in a manner that applies to a broadest possible denominator. If you polled 1000 people chances are you'd find that there would be just as many people that match their signs as there are those who don't. 

A while back, many years now, I got into astrology and read extensively on the subject. I also learned Palm reading. WHen I started learning how to type people, I wrote charts out for all my friends, and found that a few were spot on, but mostly they only sorta matched. The more I did it, the less corralation I found between the person's actual personality and their sign.

Someone mentioned something about the MBTI description being vague just like the vagueness of an astrology description, and I have to whole heatedly disagree with that as well. The MBTI IS based on scientific study of psychology, and the Type is determined by answered questions and analysis, therefore it already has more verisimilitude than astrology. 

Correlation does not equal causation. Just because one person is "exactly like their sign" doesn't mean that the sign determined the kind of person you are.

On youtube (I can't link yet) type "Penn & Teller's Bullshit! Astrology experiment" and it will help understand the nature of how astrology and horoscopes work.


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