# GRAD SCHOOL: The Experience



## Zippaslug (Feb 25, 2013)

So, seeing as how those in the forum are typically what people would consider "intellectuals", I assume that a large proportion of you have finished or are in the process of finishing some form of graduate education.

Since I'm interested myself, I was wondering if you all could give me different perspectives on the grad school experience.

If you would, please address the following with respect to your graduate experience:

-Type of program or degree (PhD, MS, MD...etc)
-Field of Study (feel free to specify if you had a specific concentration or specialty interest)
-What you enjoyed most
-What you least enjoyed
-Any advice for prospective grad students
-A general explanation of your experience (good, bad, or otherwise)

If you aren't yet a grad student or intend to be, please still feel free to list a major study interest or program.

Although I am particularly interested in INTJ responses I still would like ANYONE to give their input regardless of type. I very much want to know all your interests and your advice if you feel so inclined. Thanks in advance.


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## L (Aug 12, 2011)

I'm interested in grad school myself, although I'm still only a Jr. in college and it will be a few years before I get my degree and can go into said grad program...

Anyways, subscribed for answers.


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## katiki (Feb 21, 2013)

I'm not a grad student either, but I'm also interested. I've recently been thinking of going back so I can become a career counselor, or something along those lines.


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## Tea Path (Sep 5, 2012)

what is your proposed major? that can help guide the advice.


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## Zippaslug (Feb 25, 2013)

My undergraduate major is Psychology and I am planning to study quantitative methods/psychometrics for my graduate area. I feel like not a whole lot of people know about it or are interested. Most Psychology majors I know are not interested in mathematics and methods.

Anyway, although I do indeed want a picture of the grad school experience from those who have been there, I want to be clear that I'm also just as interested in what people's interests on the forum are. That's why I'd like people who haven't been to grad school to also mention what their current or potential interests are as well.


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## azdahak (Mar 2, 2013)

I did my Ph.D. in mathematics. It wasn't the best experience for me. I had some health issues along the way that necessitated me taking two years off. I basically had to start from scratch and it took me -too- long to get through it all. Both my advisors were hands-off NP's and I wish I knew that when I started! It's best if your advisor is a slave driver who will get you out quick. The whole experience was fairly isolating for me. I was living clear across the country from my family and friends -- I missed out on a lot. I wanted to quit many times. Finishing was more cathartic than exhilarating. Many people I started the program with quit after two or three years. Many people i know with degrees on the more "pure" side of things are teaching fractions and percents in community college for slave wages, or stuck for 5 years in crappy $30,000 a year post-docs. Then again, I've known people to go from student -> tenure track lightning quick. So much depends on luck and making good first impressions. 

Ultimately for me it was a sacrifice on the altar of vanity. I'm sure I could have found interesting productive work without it. I did it because I wanted a Ph.D. And I would do it again because I'm crazy like that. (My ugrad major was biology and I went right to a MS program with no math background).

The advice I would give:

-Realize in many ways it is a sacrifice (of time, money, freedom, sanity) to get the degree. Most people who get PhDs don't wind up as college professors. A "good school" is no guarantee. I know people with Ivy PhDs teaching high school because it pays better than no-name four year colleges.
-Get all qualifying exams done as soon as possible. 
-Don't get any "creative" thesis ideas. Find someone to work with and then work on -their- problem. In this way your advisor will have a direct interest in your progress (because they're getting a paper out of it). (This is moot if you're in Biology or Chemistry).
-Make friends with the most powerful person in the department -- the dept. secretary.
-Make sure you graduate with a few papers -- this is what gets you better postdocs.

Hope that wasn't overly negative. It was a bittersweet thing for me, but I'm not sure i would have ever forgiven myself if I quit.


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## Zippaslug (Feb 25, 2013)

Well I'm glad this didn't die immediately. Thanks to the responses so far.


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## judowrestler1 (Mar 30, 2013)

Reviving this since it is only semi-dead. I'll be staring my PhD in Stats in September.


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## smallpeas (Oct 17, 2012)

azdahak said:


> I did my Ph.D. in mathematics. It wasn't the best experience for me. [...] *I *wanted to* quit* many times. *Finishing was more cathartic than exhilarating.* Many people I started the program with quit after two or three years. Many people i know with degrees on the more "pure" side of things are teaching fractions and percents in community college for slave wages, or stuck for 5 years in crappy $30,000 a year post-docs. Then again, I've known people to go from student -> tenure track lightning quick. *So much depends on* luck and *making good* first *impressions*.
> 
> I'm sure I could have found interesting productive work without it. I did it because I wanted a Ph.D. [...]
> The advice I would give:
> ...


 @_azdahak_ nailed it from my perspective. I highlighted for emphasis. Grad school was where I first learned about navigating workplace/interpersonal politics. If you think academia isn't political, think again. (Watch The Paper Chase.)

I never took issue with the routine or requirements of school until grad school. That's when the rigidity, bureaucracy, & randomness of programs became inescapable. Learning is nice, but grad school is about teaching you to live in & survive your field. Networking, getting your name published, talks at conferences. . . . Universities want to be able to attach your name as a point of pride in a given field.

*
Things to consider:*
- You will have little to no life while in grad school.
- You will be a little older and not as apt or able to do last minute all-night work without sleep.
- You may have to teach (TA). This is A LOT of work. A LOT. I spent more time on that than my own work.
- If you have to TA, you may be grading your peers. This is a situation where diplomacy will serve you well (i.e. being critical without being anywhere near brutal).
- Your advisor may not understand (or care about) your work if you do a "creative" thesis as put above. You will be on your own. For me, that was fine; for people who seek a lot of direction & collaboration, that's a nightmare.
- Your pool of people to interact with will really be limited to the 5-30 people in your year of your program. You may or may not like (m)any of them. If you already feel like said major in undergrad attracts a particular type, it will be magnified in grad school. Be prepared.
- You may feel surrounded by faculty blowhards or should-retires. You may even get paired with one at some point. Be prepared.

- *If you want funding*, only apply to the Ph.D.-level program even if you don't plan on completing the Ph.D. Most programs don't consider Masters students for funding.

- Make sure the program offers a Masters in passing for Ph.D. candidates who finish the Masters requirements. Don't box yourself into being forced to do 5+ years should you want to leave after 2.

- Choose a university that fits your personal wants AND has good networking opportunities for your field: known professors, lots of relevant jobs in its metro area, etc.

- Ask if you really need a grad degree in your desired field. If not, what is your purpose in going? If you need a skill, consider work, interning, or apprenticing to learn the skill. Debt is a real thing. So is the passing of time.


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## ducky7 (Jan 16, 2013)

*A perspective on grad school...*

I'll tackle this one, though my answers will be biased toward graduate programs oriented toward academic/research careers. Obviously practical degrees - nursing, MD, DDS, MSC, etc will be a different story. I'm currently in an MS program in earth science. I'm ENFP but this post is largely culled from discussions with my PhD-student INTJ husband on the topic. 

*Best/worst parts personally:*

(+) I've enjoyed prolonging my stay in academia and taking advanced coursework- always interesting. I've learned a lot of self-discipline and essentially how to read complex literature from totally unfamiliar disciplines.

(-) I've not enjoyed my research experience - essentially my program was sold as something different from what it was. I had mixed chemistry with my advisor, who was very hands-off and guided me into a research project I'm not interested in. I've not gotten the focused expertise I was hoping to gain because the curriculum is quite scattershot and not related to my research really.



Advice based on our experience:

*Good reasons to go to graduate school:
*
(1) You have worked for a few years and you need a specific graduate degree to advance in your career. (Or, for a minority: you did research as an undergraduate and can't imagine not continuing in your same field. I mean it. Can you imagine doing something else? Go do it for at least a year, then think about grad school.)

(2) You have researched the job prospects for someone with your target degree in your field and they are plentiful for someone with your background. (Or, for a minority: you are exceptional intellectually, willing to live anywhere, and can compete. Be objective and ruthless about this assessment.) Especially important for PhDs- often you are looking at research or academic jobs which are very competitive...

(3) You have found a program and advisor who have a project for you and are eager to work with you. A project idea is really important. Way too many students are let into programs without a defined advisor/project and then are left to fend for themselves, producing crappy research and frustrated students. 

[On a special note, I want to echo azdahak by saying to watch out for advisors who have big ideas but no follow-through (many NPs are like this). Students are most frustrated with the professors who half-guide them to idea and bail out when it comes to implementing the details. Ask what the project will be. Be certain it's something you want to do for 2-6 years of your life. Talk to current and previous students.]
*

Bad reasons to go to graduate school, unless criteria 1-3 are satisfied:*

(1) You are smart and you want a credential that shows you are smart. (Or, you feel grad school is expected of smart people.)

(2) You want to learn more about something, but don't need a credential for any reason. Honestly, with the Internet and online book-sellers you can teach yourself extensively without paying $20,000/year or earning slave wages. You can also learn a lot just by working in certain fields (and get paid good money, too). 

(3) Your undergrad research advisor tells you that you should go and that you are smart. Remember, academia is a Ponzi scheme, in many ways. For the university, it's financial, but for academics, it's cultural. Advisors feel good when their talented advisees go on to grad school. It's what they chose, and you are their protege, after all. 


I don't mean to be super cynical- it may be right for you and there is certainly the super-talented top 5-10% that will sail right through. Maybe 50% will suffer a little but grow from it and do just fine. Another 35% may suffer a lot but move on. Then there are always a few people who really get dragged down by the experience, or dragged down by an unsuccessful post-grad school job search or prolonged underemployment...

I guess in summary- at least at my university, (a top-100 engineering school), a lot of people are going to grad school and sometimes not gaining very much from it... So I think it's important to have practical reasons for going.


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## KSKatze (Nov 15, 2012)

Hi there, i see you're in the USA. If i am to believe anything from "PhD comics" (great btw, go google ), grad study in America is soul destroying, very low paid (maybe not at all) and never-ending. 

Anyway, i'm going to talk about grad school in the UK, which is where i am. Have you thought about moving abroad? UK grad school is capped at either 3 or 4 years, depending on your funding, and you are funded minimum £13k, at least in the sciences. 

Also, we have this grad student from Kuwait, who will apparently become assistant professor with her own lab when she goes back to her country, just for having a PhD... it boggles the mind.


*-Type of program or degree (PhD, MS, MD...etc) *PhD, final year now

*-Field of Study (feel free to specify if you had a specific concentration or specialty interest)* Genetics

*-What you enjoyed most *Being surrounded by well known scientists, conferences, day to day lab banter (note my PhD is lab based- this is better in my opinion as more structured like a working day), the excitement of producing an interesting result, the hours ive had to put in haven't been too bad (i was led to believe i would have no other life; maybe this is true of the USA), pending "Doctor" status, flexibility, knowing that this is probably one of the most interesting things i could be doing right now.

*-What you least enjoyed *The pressure, on and off incidents of clinical depression leading to an interruption, occasional self doubt, unpredictable temperamental supervisor (but supportive and brilliant), monotony of endlessly repeating an experiment, knowing i am now 25 with no real income (bar the stipend) and no pension contributions, bossy colleague..... did i mention the pressure?

*-Any advice for prospective grad students* Most grad students seem to be suffering some kind of mental health problem. So if you already have one, at least you'll know what you're dealing with . Seriously though, do think carefully as the pressure is tremendous. You need to think about the reasons you really want to go to grad school. Also choose your advisor very very VERY carefully.

*-A general explanation of your experience (good, bad, or otherwise)* Overall, I haven't particularly had a good time. This may or may not be due to existing mental health issues. It's not as easy as you think to drop out either (yes i considered this at one time). However, i truly believe that going to grad school was the best thing i ever did (ok i'm not finished with it yet... another 9 months.. and writing thesis is supposed to be a killer).


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## azdahak (Mar 2, 2013)

KSKatze said:


> Hi there, i see you're in the USA. If i am to believe anything from "PhD comics" (great btw, go google ), grad study in America is soul destroying, very low paid (maybe not at all) and never-ending.
> 
> Anyway, i'm going to talk about grad school in the UK, which is where i am. Have you thought about moving abroad? UK grad school is capped at either 3 or 4 years, depending on your funding, and you are funded minimum £13k, at least in the sciences.
> 
> *-Field of Study (feel free to specify if you had a specific concentration or specialty interest)* Genetics



Most of what you say is also true in the USA. Funding depends greatly on your field and school, usually $20,000+, but this really doesn't stretch too far if you're living in a major city and don't want 3 roommates.

More perspective for the OP:

Having done graduate school in both neuroscience and mathematics, I can say that the highly structured lab aspect makes for a tremendous difference. Even many of the types of courses one takes in biology -- small seminars where you sit around and critically discuss papers, have more of a group dynamic. Math, theoretical physics, linguistics, even psychology will be mostly solo ventures. 

The disadvantage to a lab group is that you can get lost in the crowd of the 8 students/slaves of your advisor (Hint: he only gives a shit about one of you -- the golden boy) and that you will have to work within the framework of the lab. You will need to fit into the "culture" of that particular lab, which more than likely will have a competitive sub-current. Another thing to realize about lab work, is that it seems glamorous as an undergraduate -- you get to play with all the toys -- but it quickly becomes dull when you realize actually running experiments is very routine and tedious. You are following protocols. You job is mainly to run the experiment without fucking it up and wasting $5000 worth of materials, while your advisor sits in his office writing grant proposals.

Of course you may get lucky and get a lab that's doing something really exciting and breakthrough (low chance), but for the most part you're going to be "dotting the i" on someone else's idea. 

You can try to aim for something in-between cenobite biology and eremite math of course. Look for a small lab with an advisor who has only one or two graduate students. He will most likely be younger with less resources, but probably less able to make a lot of connections for you. He will also probably feel more pity.


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## L (Aug 12, 2011)

Wow... all this sounds like it sucks lol. Not the way my teachers made it sound at all...

Hmmm....


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

I considered doing an JD\MBA but did an ROI and found at the moment it's not worth it. If I find a company that has tuition assistance and/or actually has an incentive to get a master's, then I will think about it. I was thinking of doing technology law but I saw law prospects in general not that appealing with their current job market situation. I work as a Systems Administrator now making $60k plus in a low cost of living area (my 2 bedroom townhouse with a private basement and garage is $425 a month plus utilities). It just wouldn't make sense for me to get a law degree considering it costs $100k and I'd be making the same if not less at a law firm. The MBA or some other IT related master's might come but it really depends on my employer. I guess right now I'm focused on getting more experience under my belt and maybe some certifications. I'm only 24 so I have a while to get more experience under my belt. I already have 6 years of full time IT experience so maybe in a few more years, I'll be ready to cap that experience with a master's.


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## ducky7 (Jan 16, 2013)

> Wow... all this sounds like it sucks lol. Not the way my teachers made it sound at all...


That was my reaction, too. My undergraduate advisor happened to be in that 5-10% that just loves grad school. He had the right personality for it and also was working on a seminal project with a great advisor. I only heard positive things about grad school, too.

It's sort of social evolution- the ones you're generally going to hear about grad school from are the ones who thrived most- because they survived and stayed on in academia. It depends a lot on who you are, what you're studying, where, and with whom. I remember my HS teachers complaining about their graduate education coursework... but even so they were getting their degrees paid for and they had a job at the end of the line.. so that's a different story than academia.

I highly recommend getting some work experience before running into an academic graduate degree. If it's a credential you need to do what you want to do, and you can't imagine doing anything else, by all means, go for it, but I think it's a better use of everyone's time if you can wait until you're 100% certain.


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## Zippaslug (Feb 25, 2013)

Thanks for the responses and keeping this thing alive. I hope to hear a lot more although my general impressions so far are the following:

The Good
Haha, not much apparently from what people are saying. Although these are almost all from an academically focused programs. What I gather is that some people will find the competitive/pressure-driven environment stimulating but that these folks are in the minority. Also, the point has been made that for some work, higher-level degrees are necessary for work advancement.

The Bad
-Pressure
-Dealing with slave-driving/oblivious advisers and resentful "colleagues" in a never-ending political struggle
-Mind-numbing lab work or number crunching
-Pressure
-Hard work-Low Pay
-Pressure
-Debt, lots of debt
-Pressure

This is all good info and I'd love to hear more.

Are there any professional degree folks out there? Maybe some terminal MA or MS folks who have opinions?



> It just wouldn't make sense for me to get a law degree considering it costs $100k and I'd be making the same if not less at a law firm.


Normally I'd agree but I'd say it depends on whether you enjoy your job. My brother became a lawyer specifically for the money and now he regrets not going into psychology (his first love). I do agree that at this age (I'm also 24) there is still some time to make mistakes as long as they don't cost every penny that you have.


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## smallpeas (Oct 17, 2012)

azdahak said:


> Having done graduate school in both neuroscience and mathematics, I can say that the highly structured lab aspect makes for a tremendous difference. Even many of the types of courses one takes in biology -- small seminars where you sit around and critically discuss papers, have more of a *group dynamic*. Math, theoretical physics, linguistics, even psychology *will be mostly solo ventures*.


I was in a solo-venture field. But I think solo-venture fields largely attract solo-venture types.




L said:


> Wow... all this sounds like it sucks lol. Not the way my teachers made it sound at all...





ducky7 said:


> That was my reaction, too.


It's a commitment. I think those of us who have been are just stressing that. Have no illusions.
E.g.


azdahak said:


> Another thing to realize about lab work, is that *it seems glamorous* as an undergraduate -- you get to play with all the toys -- *but it* quickly becomes dull when you realize actually running experiments *is very routine and tedious.*


Many things that seem glamorous to those on the outside are very tedious to those on the inside. It's the same with high-profile jobs and glittery industries: there's a lot more work than imagined going into those glossy results & facades you see.


For me, grad school wasn't "hard." I simply had no reason to be there, which gave me an armchair POV that made all the non-learning bits seem glaring. Academia is a business! I don't regret going; I got what I needed to get out of it. I "left" with an M.S. (& not a Ph.D.) because I had never intended to 1) go, 2) get a Ph.D. And even given that, I stayed far longer than I had imagined: the lure of learning (& the machine).


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

Zippaslug said:


> Normally I'd agree but I'd say it depends on whether you enjoy your job. My brother became a lawyer specifically for the money and now he regrets not going into psychology (his first love). I do agree that at this age (I'm also 24) there is still some time to make mistakes as long as they don't cost every penny that you have.


I mean I think I would enjoy being a lawyer and arguing cases in court. I was always told I'd make a good lawyer and I can easily interpret law to the point people come to me for legal advice on certain things. I also enjoy doing IT work in the right environment. As of right now I don't really enjoy my job too much but I am looking and will hopefully find something better soon. My biggest thing is I'd like to do either job it's just the ROI to be a lawyer wasn't there.


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## azdahak (Mar 2, 2013)

I would really avoid the legal profession at this time. There is a so-called "lawyer bubble" right now, at least in the US. That is, far more lawyers than jobs. It's driving salaries down, even as law school becomes ever pricier.

An MBA, unless it's from Harvard, it's mostly just something to put on your resume. Frankly, you're probably better off getting it during night school or on-line while you work. 

M.S. degrees in most of the sciences are probably not going to get you much more than a B.S. But an M.S. is enough qualification to teach college level courses, although teaching at the college level is generally a low-pay job.

Frankly, the most practical degrees are engineering and computer science. 

@Zippaslug You mentioned you did psychology. Here are two fields where you can leverage that where I feel there are excellent job prospects for the next 20 years. 

1) big data/data mining Basically looking for psychological trends derived from huge data sets. This would be a very statistics oriented field, but it's one where your background in psychology would be seen as having added value. 

(How Target Figured Out A Teen Girl Was Pregnant Before Her Father Did - Forbes)


2) counselor/therapist There is a real lack of male therapists. You can make a good practice. 

(http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/22/health/22therapists.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0)


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## gypsy79 (Apr 3, 2013)

Type of program or degree: Currently working on an MS in Training & Development
What I enjoy most: I like delving deep and specializing
What I enjoy least: It's soul sucking for an INTJ because there isn't much time to pursue other topics of interest

I have never been in a PhD program, but it's my understanding that it is VERY different from a Master's program. My Master's program certainly sucks up a lot of my "free" time and sometimes I want to quit, but it is not nearly the same as what my friends with PhDs say they went through. I still work full time and go to school part time at night. I take one or two classes per semester, depending on my business travel schedule, and I do not live on campus.

Overall, I'm glad I'm doing it because it only makes me want to kill myself sometimes  and I need it to advance in my career. Most other people in my office have a master's degree, and some have PhDs.

Advice for prospective master's students: 

Get a couple of years of real work experience in your field first. This could be as simple as administrative support for a psychologist or a psychometrician (for example). That will help you confirm or disconfirm your career choice, and it will also help you understand your studies better.
Only do it if it will help you advance in your field (this is another reason to get work experience in your field first) or if you really love specialized or structured learning.
Once you're in the program, be willing to say no. Keep up your relationships, of course, and take time for yourself, but don't let yourself get into non school or work related obligations that stress you out.
Try to avoid debt or keep it low if you can. This may mean working part time while going to school full time or vice versa. Everyone's situation is different, but I have personally found it quite stress-relieving to not have any school debt.


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