# What is it about people with Asperger's syndrome that pisses people off so much?



## natashasghost

I just want to know, and I'm brutally honest and don't mind brutal honesty back. Anyone deal with someone with Asperger's and have any advice on what I may be doing that makes almost everyone I meet act defensive, jealous, passive-aggressive? Any advice on how to tone down anything I might be doing to evoke these emotions in others?


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## knittigan

My younger brother has Asperger's and something that frustrates me to no end is that he doesn't seem to care about how the things he says affect other people. I know that this isn't true -- it's very hard for him to _tell_ how the things he says are received -- but this is how it comes off a lot of the time.

In all fairness, though, this same criticism could be made of a lot of xxTx types, myself included.


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## Thalassa

I've never been jealous of anyone with Asperger's Syndrome, so that might be an incorrect social assumption on your part. I have found certain people with Asperger's or Autism excessively cruel, but in those cases I think they were socialized to be so, that their parents said "oh they're special we can't discipline them" so they grew up to be these nasty, unemotional taunting monsters who show borderline psychopathic or antisocial traits. I don't think that's usual though, so there may be co-morbidity ...that is to say, some Aspies may also have antisocial personality disorder, it may have nothing to do with parental efforts.

But most Aspies I've met are harmless people, and since I understand it and am an Fi type I don't think it bothers me as much as it does Fe dom/aux types maybe, I dunno. I've really hated one Aspie I met but I think he's also antisocial, or has co-morbidity with other personality disorders.

Most of them are sweet, stubborn, some are clueless, and one I know is sort of laughably attached to his favorite routines, schedules, blanket, whatever. Since I'm an Fi dom I could hardly give a shit if someone doesn't "join in." So I meet Aspies, they don't "join in" and I just let them be, and they let me be, and it works. 

I've met people who get SUPER pissed off by people who don't "join in." I seriously think they are Fe dom/aux, because what seems to piss them off is the cold individuality or the fact that they are unresponsive and don't join the group. Their complaints sometimes mystify me, like "really you can't be serious." But I think I know this ESFJ dude who gets really upset at this ISTJ I know who has Asperger's ...he just can't stand it that this Aspie always *must* have the same chair (and won't give it up to anyone) and sometimes doesn't greet him in return or want to engage in conversations with him. I'm never upset if someone doesn't respond or want to engage in conversation with me, _unless I want to sleep with them_ so this mystifies me that this bothers him so much...but I think it has something to do with Fe, I don't know.


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## Arclight

It doesn't bother me directly at all.. But It bothers me that a lot of boring, self obsessed people use it as an excuse for their laziness and lack of social grace. 
Kind of like everybody who is over weight has a "thyroid issue".


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## Thalassa

knittigan said:


> My younger brother has Asperger's and something that frustrates me to no end is that he doesn't seem to care about how the things he says affect other people. I know that this isn't true -- i*t's very hard for him to tell how the things he says are received --* but this is how it comes off a lot of the time.
> 
> In all fairness, though, this same criticism could be made of a lot of xxTx types, myself included.


I wonder if this has to do with the personality type of the Aspie? Like some Aspie's I think have co-morbidity of other disorders, or were just raised in an environment where they were never encouraged to learn more social skills?

I met an Aspie tonight who was as nice as he could be, and said he even wishes he could go back to high school and apologize to the girls he would awkwardly approach out of no where and just start randomly stroking their hair. I think he was rigorously raised in an environment though where his parents put him in special schools and kept a super-close eye on him, from what he said, so that he was taught social skills and about other people's feelings in such a manner that as a grown man he *relatively* understands it.

He seemed weird almost in the way that I can be (lol) in that he seemed to lack a filter. Like he just kept telling me all this personal information about himself, like just jumped right in and "blah blah blah" and it made me think of the way I go on and on sometimes (my mother actually said once she wondered if I was a mild Aspie instead of bipolar II because they show similar traits like overreacting and over-emotionality, now that my niece has been diagnosed with a rather obvious case of Asperger's) ...but yeah...his social flaws seemed more like...clueless...rather than malicious.

Same with the older ISTJ Aspie I mentioned in my last post. He isn't "mean" and he has a clear Christian morality (that is admittedly dogmatic, he has very black and white "right" and "wrong")...the only way he is clueless is more like a social stiffness and refusal to respond or join in.

So Aspies who are blatantly fucking mean...I'm not sure what that's about, but I don't attribute it to Asperger's or Autism across the board. I knew this one Aspie ASSHOLE on-line, and I think he probably had some clue of what he was doing...he wasn't just being awkward or not knowing what to say or what not to say...he was a pretty nasty individual.


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## sprinkles

I've heard of this before. I'm not bothered and I fail to see why I should be.

Anyway. I think that if you can't fundamentally grasp the issue, whatever it is, then trying to 'fix it' will be a clumsy patch at best. 

One word of advice though is to avoid being self centric. Not everyone wants to interact with you or hear what you have to say, or have anything to do with you in general. 

I've had it happen to me where a random person I've never even seen before comes up to me and starts babbling about <insert thing>, and while I will tolerate this to a point, I am not going to be chained down for an hour to be this person's outlet. This has actually happened to me a couple times. Eventually I just want to say "I don't care! Go away!"


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## Mutatio NOmenis

Very mild Aspie here. I'm not really mean at all; a lot of people can't even tell that I have it. I have my own obsessions an repetitive behaviors, but I spare others from them unless they share the interest.


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## quadrivium

I've worked under someone with Asperger's and boy, was it frustrating. The forced eye contact. His disingenuous attempts to boost morale. He would approach me asking about a sick family member or something, then interrupt me and order me around. His perfectionism would stifle everyone around him.


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## HandiAce

Promethea said:


> ...a small percentage of eccentrics who focus their energies in other pursuits...


My life in a nutshell. HECK YEAH!

I'm not quite an Aspie, but I do have some behavioral traits that are similar to one.

I know one Aspie who I grew up with in elementary school. We actually go to the same college now. The only things that he might do to upset another person is walk or run away (literally) from you. It probably has to do with social anxiety and confusion though. He is actually a very friendly and gentle person by nature. It just hurts sometimes to see anxiety get to him.


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## La Li Lu Le Lo

Why do people find them annoying?











Also they tend to be loud. Obviously Asperger's is a mild form of autism but some of those characteristics are still present.


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## Kytaari

This thread brings back a lot of psychosis for me. I was diagnosed with AS at a very young age, but the description never fit me. Nowadays I see myself as schizophrenic, but apparently the guy who diagnosed me thought I was AS. My family sees me this way still, to a very minor extent. They just think I'm socially adept enough to hide it. Reading some of these negative remarks toward the syndrome still offends me, even though I know most of them were balanced, and I don't even believe I have it. But just because I _thought _I had for so many years, even when I never thought the diagnosis even fit me, this thread brings to me a lot of painful traumatizing concepts and memories.

I'm way too in touch with my emotions to be an aspie, and I feel a very extroverted need to be around other people. The mental imbalance that characterizes me the most is probably schizoaffective disorder, which, in my form, is depressive schizophrenia. I still don't know how I came across as having asperger's traits. The painful thing about the psychiatric diagnosis, however, is everyone who hears about immediately assumes you have it, even when you clearly don't show you do. They just think, "Oh, he's just an exception," or whatever. All these memories are really starting to piss me off.

It is possible that I was kind of impaired socially, now that I think about it. I don't know what it was, but I don't think AS is something you grow out of. It's still possible that I have it and I just can't recognize it, because I don't think the way other people do. I only have two friends who are close to me, and they both don't think I have it. My family is mixed about this, probably because they knew me as a child. My teachers and Councillors don't know for sure.

I don't even know what fundamentally characterizes this syndrome, but I've read descriptions, and they don't resonate with me at all. I never had any special interests, I avoided eye contact, but no less than the average person. Maybe I really did have it, and I just grew out of it; I don't know. I don't know if something like that's even possible.

Because of this diagnosis, I have never been sure about my type. I relate strongly to the NF temperament, but AS leans heavily towards a very underdeveloped INTP. Or INTJ, I don't really know. Maybe I really was severely socially stupid as a kid, because I still have a lot of very embarrassing memories that I have suppress, or otherwise I'd have to resort to an eternal wheel of face palms. This whole experience of mine still leaves me feeling very confused.

Anyway, sorry about this very long monologue, but I felt like I needed to participate in this discussion, since this diagnosis has played a very relevant role in my life. I still see myself more akin to schizophrenia, but whatever. My family and my Councillors don't, they think I'm an aspie, nothing I can do it; I don't know why, it doesn't make very much sense, but I'll just let it go.

I've currently typed myself as ENFP, and the ways I relate the least to it are due mainly to my social inexperience. I've tried looking on more "typical aspie personality forums," things like Wrong Planet, but it never resonates with me. The NT forums are very interesting, but the way we process still seems very different. I don't have any of the problems that typical aspies have, so forums for that syndrome don't feel like a home to me. 

I'm really sorry about this long post, but I can't help it; I still feel very angry. Even when people talk negatively about autism and asperger's syndrome, I still feel like, in a way, they're talking about me; even if I mainly suspect I never was susceptible. I still haven't found a way to resolve this discrepancy in my life.


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## MCRTS

fourtines said:


> Most of them are sweet, stubborn, some are clueless, and one I know is sort of laughably attached to his favorite routines, schedules, blanket, whatever. Since I'm an Fi dom I could hardly give a shit if someone doesn't "join in." So I meet Aspies, they don't "join in" and I just let them be, and they let me be, and it works.
> 
> I've met people who get SUPER pissed off by people who don't "join in." I seriously think they are Fe dom/aux, because what seems to piss them off is the cold individuality or the fact that they are unresponsive and don't join the group. Their complaints sometimes mystify me, like "really you can't be serious." But I think I know this ESFJ dude who gets really upset at this ISTJ I know who has Asperger's ...he just can't stand it that this Aspie always *must* have the same chair (and won't give it up to anyone) and sometimes doesn't greet him in return or want to engage in conversations with him. I'm never upset if someone doesn't respond or want to engage in conversation with me, _unless I want to sleep with them_ so this mystifies me that this bothers him so much...but I think it has something to do with Fe, I don't know.


Sounds like Fe to me. As I'm an ISFJ with a better developed Fi, I would probably live and let live. A lot of people comment that I have this vibe which literally spells out: "If you don't bother me, I won't bother you." I don't know anyone with autism, but I'm definitely not the type who will throw a hissy fit if someone didn't greet me, didn't join in or prefers sitting in the same place they've sat in for years. Even certain neurotypical people are creatures of habit.


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## Mutatio NOmenis

Since it's still relevant, I'll post some of the criteria and bold the ones I match

"Asperger syndrome is distinguished by a pattern of symptoms rather than a single symptom. It is characterized by *qualitative impairment in social interaction* (doesn't mean that I don't try, and yes, I do have a number of friends), by stereotyped and restricted patterns of behavior, activities and interests, and by *no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or general delay in language.* (people used to think that I was a genius)[24] *Intense preoccupation with a narrow subject* (I do my best to suppress this *, one-sided verbosity,* (I rarely do this around others, but when by myself, I can go on for hours) restricted prosody, and *physical clumsiness* (Not a great clutz, but I'm not superbly nimble) are typical of the condition, but are not required for diagnosis.[7]" A lot of people notice that I'm not exactly "all there" and that I'm somewhat socially awkward and occasionally a bit inappropriate. No one i know at college seems to think that there's anything seriously wrong with me.


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## TaylorS

People constantly hear that we "lack empathy" and so they mistake our tactlessness with the sociopath's uncaring lack of a conscious.


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## 626Stitch

> Very mild Aspie here. I'm not really mean at all; a lot of people can't even tell that I have it. I have my own obsessions an repetitive behaviors, but I spare others from them unless they share the interest.


You have an aspie smile in your photo  

Im a mild aspit too and I think I have a goofee smile sometimes as well.


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## 626Stitch

> I read an article on people who actually prefer them to date.


Can you remember where the article came from. I have a lot of aspergian traits and would be interested in reading it. I try and read whatever I can about Aspergers syndrome people in relationships.


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## conscius

natashasghost said:


> I just want to know, and I'm brutally honest and don't mind brutal honesty back. Anyone deal with someone with Asperger's and have any advice on what I may be doing that makes almost everyone I meet act defensive, jealous, passive-aggressive? Any advice on how to tone down anything I might be doing to evoke these emotions in others?


Nothing obvious that I can think of, from your Asperger. It might be either the people you hang out with or some of your behavior, unrelated to Asperger. Common reaction to Asperger is just sense of miscommunication or misunderstanding or feeling that the person is not interested or care about the issue ( due to Asperger people problem with emotional perception or social understanding). That's about it.


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## Who

Because they necro threads.

In all seriousness, I think it's because for a while (e.g., when this thread was initially created), there was this influx of people who would claim to have it without actually having it officially diagnosed. It was the flavor of the month disorder that was "cool" to have. Before Asperger's, people would do similar things with ADD/ADHD or bipolar disorder, only exhibiting one or two symptoms and in such a mild form it's likely not a disorder. From what I gather, people have more of a problem with people who seem to think "I'm introverted and slightly socially awkward; I must have some condition" instead of people who actually have it. Especially since the people who claim to have it without having it officially diagnosed typically use it to excuse some kind of behavior.


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## clelius

Diagnosed with Asperger's here.

I was told I am opinionated and that I love to argue a lot.
A friend told me that I state my opinions in the wrong ways, because I tend to be too forceful when I do.
I am also told on a daily basis that I often look angry or hostile while talking to others or answering theit questions, and I get the "stay calm!" sentence a lot.
I don't actually am angry or hostile towards people.
My mother says that my voice switches to an angry tone a lot, but I don't do that intentionally, and I don't express anger with it. That's just my tone.


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## Snakecharmer

clelius said:


> Diagnosed with Asperger's here.
> 
> I was told I am opinionated and that I love to argue a lot.
> A friend told me that I state my opinions in the wrong ways, because I tend to be too forceful when I do.
> I am also told on a daily basis that I often look angry or hostile while talking to others or answering theit questions, and I get the "stay calm!" sentence a lot.
> I don't actually am angry or hostile towards people.
> My mother says that my voice switches to an angry tone a lot, but I don't do that intentionally, and I don't express anger with it. That's just my tone.


Are you also told that you "need to be right all the time"? 

I get that one a lot...


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## StElmosDream

FearAndTrembling said:


> *Yup, it is based on lack of understanding. Everyone perceives the world differently. The world does not affect people the same.*
> 
> It's like when I would go to family gatherings as a teenager. One of my older cousins called me "anti social". Did she ever stop to think why I am anti-social? That it is because I am very uncomfortable, and you pointing it out will make me even more uncomfortable. It isn't done out of spite. There is no angle here. That's the thing, people can't understand: intent. *They think a person is just being a baby or whatever, but don't realize they are simply in an uncomfortable situation they want out of*. *People are pushy and want explanations as why you are that way.* They can't just let you be that way. People with Aspergers should walk around with "do not disturb" signs hanging around their necks, like hotel rooms. I need one myself, though some idiot will probably ignore and still bug me.


To be honest these bolded reasons alone were why I started speaking in metaphors and analogies more when a clear statement of 'I'm feeling uncomfortable [overwhelmed, over tired or headache prone etc]' never seemed enough until it was their turn to feel said things, becoming very aware of gaslighting and 'needs of the many versus the one' mentalities from a younger age, until boundaries and assertiveness were imprinted into how others treat others.


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## Snakecharmer

StElmosDream said:


> Do you find explaining sensory issues any easier as a mature lady (trying to explain why louder noise, bright or flashing lights and some smells are an issue for me can be quite difficult especially when 'killjoy' sentiments are applied in social circles or nights out)?


Not really, unfortunately. My co-workers understand because they are licensed mental health counselors and have worked with many people with ASD. Family members and friends just think I'm high maintenance and dramatic. 

I'm also trying to avoid talking about my diagnosis because of the stigma I'm finding is attached. For my parents and sister, it has big a big A-HA! moment - this explains what they've always called my "quirkiness". I don't go out much anyway, but when I do I prefer to drive myself so I can leave early if I need to.


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## FearAndTrembling

StElmosDream said:


> To be honest these bolded reasons alone were why I started speaking in metaphors and analogies more when a clear statement of 'I'm feeling uncomfortable [overwhelmed, over tired or headache prone etc]' never seemed enough until it was their turn to feel said things, becoming very aware of gaslighting and 'needs of the many versus the one' mentalities from a younger age, until boundaries and assertiveness were imprinted into how others treat others.


I am lucky in that I have mature and understanding friends. They know I'm "weird", and understand that. I mean I could be hanging out with them at a bar for hours, suddenly disappear and go home without saying a word to anyone, and they would think nothing of it. That's just who I am. The minute I am not comfortable and having fun anymore, I'm gone. And they don't feel like I owe them an explanation. There are obviously many situations you can't just leave though.


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## FearAndTrembling

That's actually why I like forums too. I can just come on here, say a few things, and leave. I can come and go at my leisure, and never have to explain why I just left. We have no obligations to each other here. We don't have to explain ourselves.


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## StElmosDream

Snakecharmer said:


> Not really, unfortunately. My co-workers understand because they are licensed mental health counselors and have worked with many people with ASD. Family members and friends just think I'm high maintenance and dramatic.
> 
> I'm also trying to avoid talking about my diagnosis because of the stigma I'm finding is attached. For my parents and sister, it has big a big A-HA! moment - this explains what they've always called my "quirkiness". I don't go out much anyway, but when I do I prefer to drive myself so I can leave early if I need to.


To be honest I virtually never discuss Autism- Aspergers (since DSM V declassified AS as Autism alone many seem unsure what to call themselves) any more with others, unless the social space is one of commonality. 
Feeling that deep empathy + high sensitivity + compassion + very big picture thinking + divergent knowledge seeking need not fall under a banner always, even if labels help others classify their world better - in mind they also segregate and enable emotional distancing based upon lack of desire to understand others unconditionally on all sides. (That and how stigma and positive discrimination - any discrimination, can make quantification de-personalisable, rather than valuing people for what they can do)

May I ask what your job actually entails?


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## Snakecharmer

StElmosDream said:


> May I ask what your job actually entails?


I manage a weight loss clinic (my educational background is in Nutrition). We have two counselors who help people with the psychological side of weight loss. 

My last day is Monday, thankfully (the job drains me and I'm very bored). I've been working for a company that runs some websites, and they offered me a full-time position.


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## monemi

Pissed off? I wouldn't go that far. Lack of patience? Yeah. They don't give a crap what I think anyway, from what I can tell. I don't think they like me and while I'm okay with them in theory, in practice we butt heads. I HATE routine. It grinds on me. I don't like sameness. It's just so very very very annoying. I like making eye contact and lack trust for people who don't make eye contact. They don't have to fit my social cues, but I'm not about to be BFF's with them. It seems best if we agree to disagree and avoid each other where possible.


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## PaladinX

monemi said:


> Pissed off? I wouldn't go that far. Lack of patience? Yeah. They don't give a crap what I think anyway, from what I can tell. I don't think they like me and while I'm okay with them in theory, in practice we butt heads. I HATE routine. It grinds on me. I don't like sameness. It's just so very very very annoying. I like making eye contact and lack trust for people who don't make eye contact. They don't have to fit my social cues, but I'm not about to be BFF's with them. It seems best if we agree to disagree and avoid each other where possible.


I like you.

I abhor routine.

I am an agent of change.

I have Asperger's Syndrome.


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## monemi

PaladinX said:


> I like you.
> 
> I abhor routine.
> 
> I am an agent of change.
> 
> I have Asperger's Syndrome.


Cool. It seems like the only people who've been the least able to adapt to change in my experience gave asperger's syndrome as their explanation. If I want to insist on not doing everything the same, I'm left looking like an asshole, so I've avoided these people after they've set me up like that.


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## StElmosDream

monemi said:


> Pissed off? I wouldn't go that far. Lack of patience? Yeah. They don't give a crap what I think anyway, from what I can tell. I don't think they like me and while I'm okay with them in theory, in practice we butt heads. I HATE routine. It grinds on me. I don't like sameness. It's just so very very very annoying. I like making eye contact and lack trust for people who don't make eye contact. They don't have to fit my social cues, but I'm not about to be BFF's with them. It seems best if we agree to disagree and avoid each other where possible.


Why so many us and them pejoratives noted in 'them', 'they', and 'we differ' mistrust notions?


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## StElmosDream

Even as an autistic (some suggest Aspergiac just based language and social graces many develop over time) I can find certain extremes of fixed mindedness almost intolerable, having to agree to disagree, for example someone trying to tell me how computers work when I had already spent 8 years breaking or repairing them and have family that actually repair and maintain them for a living.


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## monemi

StElmosDream said:


> Why so many us and them pejoratives noted in 'them', 'they', and 'we differ' mistrust notions?


When two people feel very strongly that things need to be a certain way and one of them isn't willing to compromise, it creates animosity.


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## StElmosDream

monemi said:


> When two people feel very strongly that things need to be a certain way and one of them isn't willing to compromise, it creates animosity.


 I was asking you what influences your 'us and them' attitude against ASDs (I find it hard to know how to react to your sudden oversimplified language, wondering why you feel my social understanding has suddenly decreased from acknowledging a brain disorder).


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## monemi

StElmosDream said:


> I was asking you what influences your 'us and them' attitude against ASDs (I find it hard to know how to react to your sudden oversimplified language, wondering why you feel my social understanding has suddenly decreased from acknowledging a brain disorder).


If you look at my other interactions with people, my response is unrelated to your brain disorder. It's par for the norm for me to give short responses. I already gave my explanation for my discomfort. What else can I give you? I don't think I was unclear in my first post. Those are the patterns I have experienced. When I was deaf, the onus was on me to learn to lip read and speak and adapt to the hearing world. I believe the onus is on those with asperger's syndrome to adapt to the world. Reasonable accommodations should be made, but everyone shouldn't have to tip toe around those with a disability. I have auditory processing disorder that I've been told is related to learning language a little late because I couldn't hear. I learned adapt to the world. The world does not adapt to me. If they still don't like me, I accept that and move on. 

If you don't give aperger's as an excuse to have the people around you adapt to you, then that's great.


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## StElmosDream

monemi said:


> If you look at my other interactions with people, my response is unrelated to your brain disorder. It's par for the norm for me to give short responses.
> I believe the onus is on those with asperger's syndrome to adapt to the world. Reasonable accommodations should be made, but everyone shouldn't have to tip toe around those with a disability. I have auditory processing disorder that I've been told is related to learning language a little late because I couldn't hear. I learned adapt to the world. The world does not adapt to me. If they still don't like me, I accept that and move on.
> 
> If you don't give asperger's as an excuse to have the people around you adapt to you, then that's great.


Thank you for clarifying your stance. In truth I do have uncommon days when I am more sensitive about autism related topics, knowing so much societal stigma may still exist in social settings, employment settings and misinformed public perceptions (or at least the expectation of stigma at times). Imagining that APD and sound imbalances can sometimes illicit negative assumptions or expectations in others too at times.


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## boospookum

Let us first acknowledge the question asked in the initial post.

For many people, figure that irritability or avoidance is triggered due to being put outside their own comfort zone and understanding. Social expectations and exchanges are normalized, and when someone who introduces a flux to that normalcy is introduced people are likely to misunderstand or be otherwise put off.

People typically judge based off what they know. When a person does not understand or know how to interact with someone on a different wavelength, in this case someone within the autism spectrum, they can only compare it to the behavior they have seen.

Say you are in the grocery store, looking for someone to check you out. You see an employee and wave them over, and ask them if they could check you out. The employee says, "I am sorry, I am not a cashier. Someone else will help you soon." and turns around and goes back to their pre-assigned task. This could be considered rude. However, to the employee with Asperger's they are merely presenting the facts and fulfilling their role at work.

The fact that the employee has Asperger's does not mitigate the fact it was rude by "normal" standards, and the person is likely to feel offended even if they are aware of the employee's diagnosis simply because they have been conditioned to be offended. After all, when a person gets hit in the face they will likely be offended even if the hit was accidental... and so it goes with social cues and the people who have trouble picking them up, in this case the quintessential Asperger's kid. 

Education of the masses helps but does not eliminate stigma, nor can it be expected to. People, before they are anything else, are people with individual likes and dislikes and quirks. Some folks get along, and some people don't. As has been illustrated, there is much variety within the asperger's/autism umbrella. There is also much variety within the neurotypical umbrella. 

* Disclaimer: This is written from the perspective of an individual with NVLD not AS, there may be misconceptions.


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## Ligerman30

Not everyone can handle brutal honesty, so you have to try to be sensitive to other's feelings. Don't lie to them, but tell them what you want to express in a way that won't damage their feelings. Try to tell them the positive first then the criticism second.


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## Chesire Tower

Well, I have ADHD - inattentive type and I realise that there isn't the same kind of social stigma attached to that but if someone is mad at me and I explain to them that I have ADD not only are they not remotely sympathetic; they are actually annoyed because they think it doesn't exist and I'm looking for special treatment. I generally don't discuss it anymore unless people are interested. It's just easier to put up with societal ignorance than challenge it and I know that the situation a lot more dire in the case of Asperger's Syndrome.


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## HellCat

Does anyone else rock? I have been doing it since I was a toddler and dxed in first grade as high functioning. I also flap when I am happy or stressed, clap without thinking sometimes, do the finger thing.. am sensitive to noise like a cat, block out my french doors with a blackout curtain during the day. Sometimes if I am overstimulated I turn off all the lights and play frogs croaking or thunderstorm sounds to chill out. Weeks of research and literature on it helped me educate myself as an adult and make an effort to undo every undesirable trait.. except the rocking and flapping, Idgaf what people think of that. 

I don't notice a lack of empathy I surely try, even with the stupid girly whining some of my old friends come to me complaining over. I disagree, the oxytocin "research" is bullshit. We are capable of making connection with people its just few people are honest and trustworthy enough to reach that secret place.. unnecessary neediness based in being empty and shallow, are demanding and annoying and not worth the energy to bond with for life. High functioning and self aware are much different than people more affected by it though, so anyone hurt by someone lower functioning or selfish.. I am sorry for your pain.


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## HellCat

Yes, People with Aspergers can love. « Aspie Warrior

It is terribly hurtful to be compared to sociopaths, told we do not feel, cannot "love" Here is my favorite quote from the article. If you truly want to understand asd, read it perhaps. 

"The issue isn’t that we are not emphatic, it is not that we don’t love. The issue is that we are very empathedic. It is that we love deeply. Overwhelmingly. And as those emotions rush around inside of us, it can be very difficult to articulate in a sentence or two how we feel. For you NT’s reading this; it is like trying to sum up the Bible in a single sentence."


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## Snakecharmer

LeoCat said:


> Does anyone else rock? I


Sure do. Always have, and until recently I thought I was just a fidgety person. I don't do the flapping thing, though.

What's funny is I was rocking in my chair as I read your post. LOL


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## StElmosDream

Nope can't really say I am fidgety or prone to stimming, although I do have my moments of behaving more a human library of insights, knowledge and verbalising associated facts or topics (not that I have every had a lifelong fixation or obsession as of yet) as the type can can recount conversations or complex ideas word for word.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro

TreasureTower said:


> Well, I have ADHD - inattentive type and I realise that there isn't the same kind of social stigma attached to that but if someone is mad at me and I explain to them that I have ADD not only are they not remotely sympathetic; they are actually annoyed because they think it doesn't exist and I'm looking for special treatment. I generally don't discuss it anymore unless people are interested. It's just easier to put up with societal ignorance than challenge it and I know that the situation a lot more dire in the case of Asperger's Syndrome.


l had some kind of realization a few years ago when l really saw the ways in which l don't adjust like most people.

l haven't taken medication for ADHD since 2005, l didn't necessarily decide that l ''didn't have it'' but l just decided that l didn't care anymore.

l think what really started to get to me is the way it is invisible most of the time, and in my family there are more serious disorders and it was like l was being used as dumping ground for everyone else's problems and then when l start f*cking up because l'm not able to handle it? They acted surprised, since l'm supposed to be the normal one.

:frustrating: l actually became _really_ angry and l did not foresee that at all, it's not something that's caused me major trouble and l do well in school most of the time(another reason people treat me like l don't have it).

l think it is good for people who feel it impacts more areas than what it is commonly discussed (basic school relate, learning disorder issues) to really take a look at it, and even compare yourself to others if you have to. 

l don't use openly it as an excuse, but l have realized that it affects me more than l thought it did and will now take ''selfish'' measures in managing it.


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## Crimson Ash

It is quite saddening the level of energy people are willing to expend to understand their fellow humans.
Not only that but some people are quite happy to accept the general negative stereotype about a condition and justify their judgement.


The lack of eye contact has been known to freak people out a bit. But honestly I find it hard to engage positively with people who maintain eye contact as the main qualifier for trustworthiness. 

If that is the case then every situation where proper eye contact and a little bit of flowery language has been used you should be capable of trusting that person. However I'm sure everyone can name people in positions of power and status who do those things but they wouldn't trust them with even a hair on their head.


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## HellCat

UtterMess said:


> It is quite saddening the level of energy people are willing to expend to understand their fellow humans.
> Not only that but some people are quite happy to accept the general negative stereotype about a condition and justify their judgement.
> 
> 
> The lack of eye contact has been known to freak people out a bit. But honestly I find it hard to engage positively with people who maintain eye contact as the main qualifier for trustworthiness.
> 
> If that is the case then every situation where proper eye contact and a little bit of flowery language has been used you should be capable of trusting that person. However I'm sure everyone can name people in positions of power and status who do those things but they wouldn't trust them with even a hair on their head.


Eye contact is such an issue for me sometimes. It feels "spikey" and like they are digging in my soul. 
Just like cameras I fucking hate cameras. To hell with flowery language too. Words without actions are nothing.


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## monemi

LeoCat said:


> Eye contact is such an issue for me sometimes. It feels "spikey" and like they are digging in my soul.
> Just like cameras I fucking hate cameras. To hell with flowery language too. Words without actions are nothing.


I like eye contact. People have difficulty keeping lies straight, maintaining subtle body language and facial expressions, speech patterns and listening while maintaining frequent eye contact. Some may have a reason. Such as they are shy or have a disability. But I have a inclination towards people who can look me in the eye. It's not that guilt gets the better of them necessarily. It's just very few people can juggle that many balls at once. They fuck up and I'm watching for it. 

I don't like cameras or flowery speech either. But I like eye contact.


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## chimeric

I get annoyed by the behavior sometimes, but my annoyance subsides once I realize someone has Asperger's. I understand how much effort is put into relating to NTs on our level and how tiring it must be. Also, upon realizing someone has Asperger's, I'm able to adjust my communication strategies so we get along better (namely by being more direct/blunt myself). The "aspies don't care about anyone's feelings" thing is BS. I've known people with Asperger's who needlessly apologize, for example, because they can never tell when a remark or behavior might hurt someone. It breaks my heart a little, to be honest.



TreasureTower said:


> Well, I have ADHD - inattentive type and I realise that there isn't the same kind of social stigma attached to that but if someone is mad at me and I explain to them that I have ADD not only are they not remotely sympathetic; they are actually annoyed because they think it doesn't exist and I'm looking for special treatment. I generally don't discuss it anymore unless people are interested. It's just easier to put up with societal ignorance than challenge it and I know that the situation a lot more dire in the case of Asperger's Syndrome.


Yep. I was recently talking about it with someone and he said "well yeah, who in our generation doesn't have ADD?" and I was thinking to myself "ohhhhh mannnn you don't get it; you have _no idea_ the crazy convoluted systems I have to put in place to even get up in the morning. You have _no clue_."


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## Chesire Tower

@OMG WTF BRO and @chimeric

it's really frustrating because no one believes that I have these problems; they think that I'm just making excuses.

:frustrating:


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## margochicago

I'm an INTJ and have been diagnosed as ON the autism spectrum... and I really do think it's a broad spectrum, just like I think that all disorders are on a spectrum (I also have bipolar, but it's very "light" if that makes sense.) Anyway, as an INTJ, I can relate to people with aspergers. I will say that there is this common vocabulary used around aspergers, that I think is really unfortunate, and it's this: I often hear it said that they don't have compassion. That's not right at all. Like any people, some of them are kind and caring, and some are selfish. But overall, it's not that they LACK compassion.. rather, very important, it's that they APPEAR to lack compassion. HUGE difference.


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## dvnj22

TreasureTower said:


> @_OMG WTF BRO_ and @_chimeric_
> 
> it's really frustrating because no one believes that I have these problems; they think that I'm just making excuses.
> 
> :frustrating:


I have ADD too, outside of school it was ok, in school it was bad.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro

TreasureTower said:


> @OMG WTF BRO and @chimeric
> 
> it's really frustrating because no one believes that I have these problems; they think that I'm just making excuses.
> 
> :frustrating:


l think mine comes off like anxiety now for the most part but the thing is...l'm not_ truly _worried about anything, l just appear to be. l can get caught in obsessive thought loops, but it's a result of being disorganized.

When l seem to get yelled at about it is when l lose things, which starts to mess with other area because l tend to lose really important things, very often important documents >_>

And memory issues but these aren't always so apparent to everyone, however, if l don't remember something-l don't, lol. l'm not playing selective memory loss nonsense like people sometimes seem to think.

Bah. l had been thinking about medication again lately but l was on and off all the stimulants for about 10 years in childhood. Just...want to learn to be a person?


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## Chesire Tower

dvnj22 said:


> I have ADD too, outside of school it was ok, in school it was bad.


No for me, it affects just about everything in my life.


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## Chesire Tower

OMG WTF BRO said:


> l think mine comes off like anxiety now for the most part but the thing is...l'm not_ truly _worried about anything, l just appear to be. l can get caught in obsessive thought loops, but it's a result of being disorganized.
> 
> When l seem to get yelled at about it is when l lose things, which starts to mess with other area because l tend to lose really important things, very often important documents >_>
> 
> And memory issues but these aren't always so apparent to everyone, however, if l don't remember something-l don't, lol. l'm not playing selective memory loss nonsense like people sometimes seem to think.
> 
> Bah. l had been thinking about medication again lately but l was on and off all the stimulants for about 10 years in childhood. Just...want to learn to be a person?


Well, I take 10mgs of Dexedrine every day; it helps somewhat. I have less anxiety, agitation and concentrate better. Unfortunately, they have yet to invent a substance that helps you with organization.


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## Hurricane Matthew

chimeric said:


> I get annoyed by the behavior sometimes, but my annoyance subsides once I realize someone has Asperger's. I understand how much effort is put into relating to NTs on our level and how tiring it must be. Also, upon realizing someone has Asperger's, I'm able to adjust my communication strategies so we get along better (namely by being more direct/blunt myself). The "aspies don't care about anyone's feelings" thing is BS. *I've known people with Asperger's who needlessly apologize, for example, because they can never tell when a remark or behavior might hurt someone*. It breaks my heart a little, to be honest.


What's in bold sounds a lot like me... I really don't want to upset people but it always seems to happen so if I even have a slight hunch I did it on accident, I apologize. I hate sounding like a suck up to people and it annoys me how much I apologize, but I'm not sure what else to do! >.< I've lost a lot of friends in the past because they failed to understand me fully and I misunderstood them on really small and stupid things, so I overcompensate now, I guess. I barely have any friends anymore... so I don't want to lose the few I have.

You say your annoyance subsides when you find out they are ASD, which is nice, but when I mention I'm autistic to most people, they think I'm just making excuses for not doing something "correctly" so I don't mention it anymore. I mainly only mention it here on PerC since this is a psychology/personality forum and I'm in a phase of life where I'm trying to figure myself out better and be more self-introspective, so my autism likely plays a role in things. Outside of this forum, I don't mention it at all ((only one of my friends knows about it, one who is a med student since she would be more understanding of differing conditions)) since I hate thinking others might see me as lazy and making excuses, even though I really have no idea what to do in so many situations. It gets really tiring to even live and sometimes I think about killing myself since it gets so hard when I can't keep up with so many social demands in the real world since there is no escape. 

Unfortunately, a lot of people who don't have it use it as an excuse and has given ASDs a really bad reputation as a result.


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## chimeric

Matthew Nisshoku said:


> You say your annoyance subsides when you find out they are ASD, which is nice, but when I mention I'm autistic to most people, they think I'm just making excuses for not doing something "correctly" so I don't mention it anymore.


Yeah, it's ignorance. Anyone who has read about autism or who has had an intimate conversation with someone on the spectrum should "get it." Learning from a friend that he studied, from the ground up, how frequently to make eye contact, how close to stand to someone, how to leave a conversation, etc... it really opened my eyes. Given how much effort is put into each interaction, you'd have to be either ignorant or heartless to not forgive the occasional stumble in social graces.

So yeah, I'm very sorry people haven't treated you with understanding when you've explained where you're coming from. 



Matthew Nisshoku said:


> It gets really tiring to even live and sometimes I think about killing myself since it gets so hard when I can't keep up with so many social demands in the real world since there is no escape.


I feel like hugging you. Maybe it's a good thing this is the internet, cuz I don't know how you'd take that. I feel for you anyway. I'm sorry people can be so ignorant.


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## clelius

(to TreasureTower) :

I can relate. I think that my ADD is even more difficult to deal with than my Asperger's.


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## monemi

TreasureTower said:


> @_OMG WTF BRO_ and @_chimeric_
> 
> it's really frustrating because no one believes that I have these problems; they think that I'm just making excuses.
> 
> :frustrating:


I've always covered up any problems I have to appear as normal as possible. When I became self-aware that everyone else could hear, I took greater interest in learning to fit into the hearing world. I was more into sports and climbing and that stuff, I worked harder to be like the other girls. Years after my surgery, I was still having issues and after testing was diagnosed with auditory processing disorder. So I don't hear the difference between cow and couch or roof and wolf. I can't tell what direction sound is coming from. Difficulty with background noise or large groups. I like them, but have to concede defeat trying to talk in a discussion with too many people talking at once. My eyes can't follow that many people at once. I redoubled my lip reading efforts and concentrated harder to find clues for what people are saying. 

Until I was 18, I focused too much on being like or better than the other kids. I had something to prove. I've never told an employer or coworker or boss and unless teachers looked at my file, they didn't know. I don't want to be written off as disabled on any level. I don't want to be given a break for it. I want to be respected as an equal. I've worked to make sure that I'm good at communicating. I get lazy sometimes and revert to facial expressions and body language without talking. Or if I'm not paying attention, sometimes start signing but usually stop by the first or second word. My inner voice is always going to be images and I will always have to translate thoughts into words for the hearing world. 

It's difficult to understand the perspective of wanting to tell people that you have a learning disability. Not that I think I'm healthier. It's just that if you look normal, why admit to anything?


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## monemi

Matthew Nisshoku said:


> What's in bold sounds a lot like me... I really don't want to upset people but it always seems to happen so if I even have a slight hunch I did it on accident, I apologize. I hate sounding like a suck up to people and it annoys me how much I apologize, but I'm not sure what else to do! >.< I've lost a lot of friends in the past because they failed to understand me fully and I misunderstood them on really small and stupid things, so I overcompensate now, I guess. I barely have any friends anymore... so I don't want to lose the few I have.
> 
> You say your annoyance subsides when you find out they are ASD, which is nice, but when I mention I'm autistic to most people, they think I'm just making excuses for not doing something "correctly" so I don't mention it anymore. I mainly only mention it here on PerC since this is a psychology/personality forum and I'm in a phase of life where I'm trying to figure myself out better and be more self-introspective, so my autism likely plays a role in things. Outside of this forum, I don't mention it at all ((only one of my friends knows about it, one who is a med student since she would be more understanding of differing conditions)) since I hate thinking others might see me as lazy and making excuses, even though I really have no idea what to do in so many situations. It gets really tiring to even live and sometimes I think about killing myself since it gets so hard when I can't keep up with so many social demands in the real world since there is no escape.
> 
> Unfortunately, a lot of people who don't have it use it as an excuse and has given ASDs a really bad reputation as a result.


I say the wrong thing at the wrong time. I'm just not very good at predicting peoples responses unless I recall that specific situation coming up before. I've learned to watch peoples responses and gauge their reactions and quickly explain myself and what I mean. The majority of people accept my explanations.


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## Chesire Tower

monemi said:


> It's difficult to understand the perspective of wanting to tell people that you have a learning disability. Not that I think I'm healthier. It's just that if you look normal, why admit to anything?


I think our situations are similar but also very different. I understand that you want to fit in; I do too. Discussion about my ADD only comes up when there is a situation that warrants it. It's not like I greet people with, "Hi, my name is ____ and I have ADHD" or anything. LOL. It's more likely to become an issue when I have difficulty with either organizing or learning a new skill. I often have a lot of trouble focusing and some people may view me as stupid or if they've spoken to me at any length, know that that is impossible; so, I must have a bad attitude or something. While I don't want to be treated any differently; I would much rather that they know that I have ADD; then be under the false belief that I am either stupid, difficult or lazy.

In school, the teachers would tell my parents that I didn't try very hard, when the truth was; that I practically exhausted myself _trying_ to concentrate on my homework; not because I was "lazy" or didn't want to.

Having ADHD is very different from other disabilities in this way. I used to stutter and was very self-conscious about it and made it a point to not speak until I knew exactly what I wanted to say, first. In contrast, ADHD - especially the Adult version with Inattentive type, is considered to be the "invisible" disability. People do tend to view you as "normal" until a situation comes up where my ADD becomes an issue. Do I like going around telling people that I have ADD? Of course not but it's preferable to being considered difficult, lazy, crazy or stupid; any day.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro

monemi said:


> I've always covered up any problems I have to appear as normal as possible. When I became self-aware that everyone else could hear, I took greater interest in learning to fit into the hearing world. I was more into sports and climbing and that stuff, I worked harder to be like the other girls. Years after my surgery, I was still having issues and after testing was diagnosed with auditory processing disorder. So I don't hear the difference between cow and couch or roof and wolf. I can't tell what direction sound is coming from. Difficulty with background noise or large groups. I like them, but have to concede defeat trying to talk in a discussion with too many people talking at once. My eyes can't follow that many people at once. I redoubled my lip reading efforts and concentrated harder to find clues for what people are saying.
> 
> Until I was 18, I focused too much on being like or better than the other kids. I had something to prove. I've never told an employer or coworker or boss and unless teachers looked at my file, they didn't know. I don't want to be written off as disabled on any level. I don't want to be given a break for it. I want to be respected as an equal. I've worked to make sure that I'm good at communicating. I get lazy sometimes and revert to facial expressions and body language without talking. Or if I'm not paying attention, sometimes start signing but usually stop by the first or second word. My inner voice is always going to be images and I will always have to translate thoughts into words for the hearing world.
> 
> It's difficult to understand the perspective of wanting to tell people that you have a learning disability. Not that I think I'm healthier. It's just that if you look normal, why admit to anything?


That was my general reasoning for ''leaving it behind'' with ADHD. Right around the time l had to go in the workforce seriously...why would l tell people? l've never told an employer about it.


l probably would if l had ASD, l guess, depending on the way l experienced it personally and was aware of the specific kinds of situations in which it might be beneficial if people knew. But, l'd consider it heavily like l'm sure those with an ASD diagnosis do.

l still don't think l'd ever tell an employer about the ADHD, maybe in the future if l'm in a position to ave more flexibility and leverage. l've basically been a minion so far, and someone who could be easily replaced, there was really no room for me to expect any accommodation for it.


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## FlightsOfFancy

People don't like disorder, period. So the fact that said person has a mental disorder, which is often apparent to some degree at all times, is a turn off. Furthermore, they can make social interaction feel a bit more stilted, but this depends on their degree of learned social cues and severity of illness.

Overall, I have zero problems with them. I have disorders too, though mine are often not overt so I get the "pass" on them socially most of the time. I see them as people with slight abnormal functioning, but would gladly talk to one of them than an obnoxious neurotypical (as they call them), anyday.


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## Fedor

monemi said:


> Pissed off? I wouldn't go that far. Lack of patience? Yeah. They don't give a crap what I think anyway, from what I can tell. I don't think they like me and while I'm okay with them in theory, in practice we butt heads. I HATE routine. It grinds on me. I don't like sameness. It's just so very very very annoying. I like making eye contact and lack trust for people who don't make eye contact. They don't have to fit my social cues, but I'm not about to be BFF's with them. It seems best if we agree to disagree and avoid each other where possible.


I have aspergers.
I hate routine too. In the sense of following a schedule or doing the same thing every day. Isn't that the case with most asperger people? I thought so.
But regarding change, in like you had something planned, and the plans are spoiled, now that is very hard for me.
It can make me extremely anxious.
And eye contact, I hate that too. So yeah, I'm sure we wouldn't make good friends if you can't deal with not looking into my eyes for instance. So I guess it's a win- win situation for both of us, lol.




FlightsOfFancy said:


> People don't like disorder, period. So the fact that said person has a mental disorder, which is often apparent to some degree at all times, is a turn off. Furthermore, they can make social interaction feel a bit more stilted, but this depends on their degree of learned social cues and severity of illness.
> 
> Overall, I have zero problems with them. I have disorders too, though mine are often not overt so I get the "pass" on them socially most of the time. I see them as people with slight abnormal functioning, but would gladly talk to one of them than an obnoxious neurotypical (as they call them), anyday.


People don't like disorders?
What does that even mean? "Disorders" are a social construct in the first place.
The majority tends to label the people that are different as being inferior because it's easier that way.
The reason to why people with disorders have a harder time in some areas is because society is shaped to fit the majority, not because there's something actually wrong with the people with these "disorders".

But if somebody has a problem with that, in the sense that they decide to dislike you from the start, or not giving you a chance because you are slightly odd, then fuck them.
That's their problem, really. That shows that THAT person is the one with _real_ issues.


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## Tad Cooper

I dated a guy with Aspergers and thought he was awesome. I only broke up with him because his depression was so severe it freaked me out and kind of triggered mine off, so decided it was healthier not to continue it. I also had a couple of aspergers friends who I found great (lost contact over time though.)


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## monemi

TreasureTower said:


> Of course not but it's preferable to being considered difficult, lazy, crazy or stupid; any day.


I didn't think you tell people all the time. My first school had old signs 'deaf and dumb' and I saw adults use that term when they didn't think I was paying attention. Assumptions of low intelligence and deafness seem to go hand in hand. I guess, I'd prefer people think I was lazy or difficult. I just don't want them to speak to me slowly or use the retarded voice. I'm not a genius, but I'm not stupid and I don't want to be treated like an idiot.


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## FlightsOfFancy

Fedor said:


> I have aspergers.
> I hate routine too. In the sense of following a schedule or doing the same thing every day. Isn't that the case with most asperger people? I thought so.
> But regarding change, in like you had something planned, and the plans are spoiled, now that is very hard for me.
> It can make me extremely anxious.
> And eye contact, I hate that too. So yeah, I'm sure we wouldn't make good friends if you can't deal with not looking into my eyes for instance. So I guess it's a win- win situation for both of us, lol.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People don't like disorders?
> What does that even mean? "Disorders" are a social construct in the first place.
> The majority tends to label the people that are different as being inferior because it's easier that way.
> The reason to why people with disorders have a harder time in some areas is because society is shaped to fit the majority, not because there's something actually wrong with the people with these "disorders".
> 
> But if somebody has a problem with that, in the sense that they decide to dislike you from the start, or not giving you a chance because you are slightly odd, then fuck them.
> That's their problem, really. That shows that THAT person is the one with _real_ issues.


Right--but unfortunately, we live in a society. A society will enact social norms by virtue of being a society. Those who diverge in a way that society deems pathological are not going to be as welcome, and in the cases of where this is obvious (Asperger's), the disordered person will be informed. 

I do believe that all disordered individuals, regardless of the type of disorder, has got to learn mainstream somewhat in order to survive it. Jobs pay us; we want to get our food, etc. So we have to learn it, just for a utilitarian purpose. The rest I agree with; I have no time for people who think of me as "too" anything unless they have a bearing on my pay, food, or shelter.


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## Number Six

I can only speak from personal experience. 

I have a friend who insists he's autistic. He also tries to insist that any of the people I know and who he likes, including me are all, also, autistic. It seems funny, but it gets old, really fast.

He also justifies himself using this stupid label and has basically remained in a static state for the past ten years (he's 12 years older than me, and so when I try to explain the redundancy of such an argument, he puts it down to my childlike ignorance)

I think labels of any description are like a sword without a handle. As soon as you associate yourself with one, the behavior that led you to it becomes acceptable on some level, and so you've got an excuse to remain as you are, because society understands you're "disordered". It helps to know that you're not alone, but it also encourages one to cling to the new found identity instead of discovering their own. 

Those who embrace their labels and hold them high as if they've earned something just grate on me after a while. It's not just problematic for the disorderee (new word of the day) but also for those around them, who set aside their own beliefs because society has told them that their prejudice is now outdated, when in fact nothing has changed and the bias has shifted based purely on the ignorance of all involved.

As a rule of thumb, unless you wave your labels in my face, I don't give a fuck one way or the other. People are great in all shapes and sizes, but it can be annoying to hear "yeah but I'm autistic" anytime someone wants an excuse to stay in their comfort zone.

And Asperger's Syndrome no longer exists, btw...in case nobody has mentioned that already. Now you've just got generic Autistic Spectrum Disorder.


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## Fedor

FlightsOfFancy said:


> Right--but unfortunately, we live in a society. A society will enact social norms by virtue of being a society. Those who diverge in a way that society deems pathological are not going to be as welcome, and in the cases of where this is obvious (Asperger's), the disordered person will be informed.
> 
> I do believe that all disordered individuals, regardless of the type of disorder, has got to learn mainstream somewhat in order to survive it. Jobs pay us; we want to get our food, etc. So we have to learn it, just for a utilitarian purpose. The rest I agree with; I have no time for people who think of me as "too" anything unless they have a bearing on my pay, food, or shelter.


A society per se won't do anything. OUR society will, however. It is all relative and it depends on the culture.
For example in
Our society is pretty stupid, and the majority is also dumb people. Dumb people will be more welcome than smart people.
This is very apparent if you take a look at mainstream culture such as music, entertainment or even the news people like to read.

That doesn't mean people really should care about that.
And disorders are still a made up thing by psychology. Western psychology is extremely incompetent and doesn't really know what they are doing.

And you don't need to learn mainstream at all to survive it, there are plenty of areas where a person with aspergers can do a way better job than a person that doesn't have it.

Society however could adapt their educational system, and society as a whole to all kinds of different people to make all of the system work better. And this isn't only in regards to people with "disorders", whatever that means.
Everybody would benefit from that.


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## monemi

Fedor said:


> A society per se won't do anything. OUR society will, however. It is all relative and it depends on the culture.
> For example in
> Our society is pretty stupid, and the majority is also dumb people. Dumb people will be more welcome than smart people.
> This is very apparent if you take a look at mainstream culture such as music, entertainment or even the news people like to read.
> 
> That doesn't mean people really should care about that.
> And disorders are still a made up thing by psychology. Western psychology is extremely incompetent and doesn't really know what they are doing.
> 
> And you don't need to learn mainstream at all to survive it, there are plenty of areas where a person with aspergers can do a way better job than a person that doesn't have it.
> 
> Society however could adapt their educational system, and society as a whole to all kinds of different people to make all of the system work better. And this isn't only in regards to people with "disorders", whatever that means.
> Everybody would benefit from that.


You want them to adjust to you, but you have extremely derogatory views on them. Why should they? I don't expect people to adjust to me. I've done my best to adjust to my surroundings, that doesn't mean everyone will like or accept me. And that's okay. I don't like or accept everybody. This is exactly what I don't like about deaf culture. I don't want to live separately from the rest of the world, look down on them and then expect them be offended when they don't know how to deal with me.


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## Fedor

monemi said:


> You want them to adjust to you, but you have extremely derogatory views on them. Why should they? I don't expect people to adjust to me. I've done my best to adjust to my surroundings, that doesn't mean everyone will like or accept me. And that's okay. I don't like or accept everybody. This is exactly what I don't like about deaf culture. I don't want to live separately from the rest of the world, look down on them and then expect them be offended when they don't know how to deal with me.


What?
I said society would be more functional. I could care less how "they" adjust to me personally, I am doing great.
You are the one who says "them" and "you". You are claiming we are somehow separate from each other.
Society is one entity.
That you seem to see people with aspergers as a separate group is pretty fucked up.

This video explains pretty well how our culture is malfunctioning in regards to these issues. Replace schizophrenia with optional "disorder".










You are getting upset about something but I'm not sure what.
And maybe you think our society is functioning great at the moment without change.
But I have a surprise for you, innocent kids are being bombed every day, homeless people are homeless when they wouldn't have to if _society changed, _people who don't have food to eat, and so on. The problems are endless.
But you're right. Maybe it's these innocent kids, poor people without a chance to properly educate themselves that should adjust, not society.
What's next? "It's not society that should adjust to the rights of black people. Black people will have to adjust!"?


----------



## Glenda Gnome Starr

I don't have Aspergers or any type of autism but I do have auditory processing disorder and sensory processing disorder and I have hyperacute hearing. When I get badly overstimulated, I sometimes will rock and even flap. That's when I have to go to my room and turn off the lights and hide, especially if the noise is still bouncing around in my head. I try to avoid places where I know that I will become that overstimulated, mainly because it creates vestibular problems for me. I don't even know where I am in space and that is kind of scary.


----------



## monemi

Fedor said:


> What?
> I said society would be more functional. I could care less how "they" adjust to me personally, I am doing great.
> You are the one who says "them" and "you". You are claiming we are somehow separate from each other.
> Society is one entity.
> That you seem to see people with aspergers as a separate group is pretty fucked up.
> 
> This video explains pretty well how our culture is malfunctioning in regards to these issues. Replace schizophrenia with optional "disorder".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are getting upset about something but I'm not sure what.
> And maybe you think our society is functioning great at the moment without change.
> But I have a surprise for you, innocent kids are being bombed every day, homeless people are homeless when they wouldn't have to if _society changed, _people who don't have food to eat, and so on. The problems are endless.
> But you're right. Maybe it's these innocent kids, poor people without a chance to properly educate themselves that should adjust, not society.
> What's next? "It's not society that should adjust to the rights of black people. Black people will have to adjust!"?


I'm not upset. You called mainstream culture dumb. Mainstream culture is society. You are separating yourself from society with this attitude. My best friend, (my cousin) was diagnosed with schizophrenia when we were in our teens. I still rely on him and he relies on me. We skype nearly ever day. He doesn't expect society to adjust for him. 

You put the onus on other people. We all have our own issues. We have to deal with it. It's nice if society helps us, but we are responsible for ourselves and our own behaviour.


----------



## Callisto88

My younger sister has a mild form of Asperger's syndrome and she does not understand sarcasm very well, nor does she take care in what she says. We would get into fights because I would having a conversation with another person and she would inevitably bring up things that I supposedly do to her, and it's enfuriating because we are not talking about her, this conversation has nothing to do with her, yet she injects herself in it and makes me out to be the villain.


----------



## Fedor

monemi said:


> I'm not upset. You called mainstream culture dumb. Mainstream culture is society. You are separating yourself from society with this attitude. My best friend, (my cousin) was diagnosed with schizophrenia when we were in our teens. I still rely on him and he relies on me. We skype nearly ever day. He doesn't expect society to adjust for him.
> 
> You put the onus on other people. We all have our own issues. We have to deal with it. It's nice if society helps us, but we are responsible for ourselves and our own behaviour.


Well, mainstream culture is stupid. That's not just my opinion, it's a observable fact.
If you think I am separating myself... alright. In my opinion the average person is who separates themselves from the world by not acknowledging this.
And your cousin is schizophrenic, a schizophrenic that has grown up in western culture, of course he won't question it.
But I can guarantee you he had been feeling better if society did a better job of integrating "his kind" into society.

You still don't understand what I am saying. I never said society should adjust to ME.
And I don't put the onus on anyone. If you think that maybe you should read what I wrote again.
"Responsible for ourselves and our own behavior", I get the feeling you read into what I'm saying to much because of that you possibly have preconceived notions about people with aspergers.
Of course we are responsible for our own behavior, that doesn't change a thing though.

Society could still be more well functioning, on many levels, if everybody did their part. I am doing my best to help.
Or do you think society is perfect?


----------



## monemi

Fedor said:


> Well, mainstream culture is stupid. That's not just my opinion, it's a observable fact.
> If you think I am separating myself... alright. In my opinion the average person is who separates themselves from the world by not acknowledging this.
> And your cousin is schizophrenic, a schizophrenic that has grown up in western culture, of course he won't question it.
> But I can guarantee you he had been feeling better if society did a better job of integrating "his kind" into society.
> 
> You still don't understand what I am saying. I never said society should adjust to ME.
> And I don't put the onus on anyone. If you think that maybe you should read what I wrote again.
> "Responsible for ourselves and our own behavior", I get the feeling you read into what I'm saying to much because of that you possibly have preconceived notions about people with aspergers.
> Of course we are responsible for our own behavior, that doesn't change a thing though.
> 
> Society could still be more well functioning, on many levels, if everybody did their part. I am doing my best to help.
> Or do you think society is perfect?


Most people complain how stupid mainstream culture is and yet they participate. They buy those stupid magazines, they watch those stupid reality shows and they buy the latest disposable fashion. They're elitist in one breath and participants in the next. Odds are you participate in this dumb culture somewhere. Society isn't going to get smarter. This was brought home to me when I was pregnant. How many thousands of years women have been doing this and people still say and do stupid things about pregnant women. The odds are high that there are people and things that you are ignorant about. We all have things that we are ignorant about. 

Society isn't perfect and it isn't going to get smarter any time soon. The smartest response is to accept that and move on.


----------



## Fedor

monemi said:


> Most people complain how stupid mainstream culture is and yet they participate. They buy those stupid magazines, they watch those stupid reality shows and they buy the latest disposable fashion. They're elitist in one breath and participants in the next. Odds are you participate in this dumb culture somewhere. Society isn't going to get smarter. This was brought home to me when I was pregnant. How many thousands of years women have been doing this and people still say and do stupid things about pregnant women. The odds are high that there are people and things that you are ignorant about. We all have things that we are ignorant about.
> 
> Society isn't perfect and it isn't going to get smarter any time soon. The smartest response is to accept that and move on.


No, I don't participate in mainstream culture, I really don't.
Besides having aspergers I also have Schizoid personality disorder, if you read a bit about it you will probably understand I sincerely don't give a shit, haha.
I care about what's actually interesting or intelligent.
You are right though, many people do exactly that, which is pretty disgusting.

People saying dumb shit about pregnant women is just another sign of our malfunctioning culture.
Or rather, that these people are dumb/rude because they were brought up in this culture by their parents who most likely were it too.
Our culture has a bug in it, as Terence describes it in the video I embedded above.

And I believe you are VERY WRONG about that society isn't going to change.
Society is changing at a faster rate than ever, and will increasingly do so due to the exponential growth of information technology, especially the internet.
People have access to information they never had before. You can have more information in 1 day than you could before in a lifetime.
This will continue to speed up, and the way this information is delivered trough the internet will improve as well.

What I said from the beginning didn't really have anything to do with that though. I simply stated that society is what is malfunctioning, not these people.
Putting labels on them will just make things worse, and the way our society deals with most of these disorders is simply dumb.
I was lucky myself that I realized these things, or else I would probably have been in a bad place today.


----------



## monemi

Fedor said:


> No, I don't participate in mainstream culture, I really don't.
> Besides having aspergers I also have Schizoid personality disorder, if you read a bit about it you will probably understand I sincerely don't give a shit, haha.
> I care about what's actually interesting or intelligent.
> You are right though, many people do exactly that, which is pretty disgusting.
> 
> People saying dumb shit about pregnant women is just another sign of our malfunctioning culture.
> Or rather, that these people are dumb/rude because they were brought up in this culture by their parents who most likely were it too.
> Our culture has a bug in it, as Terence describes it in the video I embedded above.
> 
> And I believe you are VERY WRONG about that society isn't going to change.
> Society is changing at a faster rate than ever, and will increasingly do so due to the exponential growth of information technology, especially the internet.
> People have access to information they never had before. You can have more information in 1 day than you could before in a lifetime.
> This will continue to speed up, and the way this information is delivered trough the internet will improve as well.
> 
> What I said from the beginning didn't really have anything to do with that though. I simply stated that society is what is malfunctioning, not these people.
> Putting labels on them will just make things worse, and the way our society deals with most of these disorders is simply dumb.
> I was lucky myself that I realized these things, or else I would probably have been in a bad place today.


Lots of information is available, but people lack discernment. For example: Parenting. More than half the population of new parents, people that actually have internet access and know how to look information up, will take parenting advice from their own parents over advice from the experts. They'll choose advice from pediatricians who lack training in an area over advice from experts on that particular topic to their child's detriment. They write off all studies because they can't read studies and separate the chaff from the grain. 

Society is filled with human beings who are flawed. We are all flawed. You can think you're so different, but somewhere, in some way you consume mainstream thinking and aren't even aware of it.


----------



## Fedor

monemi said:


> Lots of information is available, but people lack discernment. For example: Parenting. More than half the population of new parents, people that actually have internet access and know how to look information up, will take parenting advice from their own parents over advice from the experts. They'll choose advice from pediatricians who lack training in an area over advice from experts on that particular topic to their child's detriment. They write off all studies because they can't read studies and separate the chaff from the grain.
> 
> Society is filled with human beings who are flawed. We are all flawed. You can think you're so different, but somewhere, in some way you consume mainstream thinking and aren't even aware of it.


That's only because the internet is so new. Wait a decade or two and see. We are still in the baby stages of the internet.

And I beg to differ. I mean, of course I am very flawed, but I really don't consume mainstream thinking.
Well, of course to some degree, since we are all a result of it, but very minimally.
There is an easy way for you to do the same. High dose of psychedelics. Psilocybin or DMT.

I haven't claimed to be "so different" either. Now you are reading into it and projecting again.
I am simply stating facts. I don't understand what's so provoking with me saying I don't pay attention to mainstream culture.


----------



## monemi

Fedor said:


> That's only because the internet is so new. Wait a decade or two and see. We are still in the baby stages of the internet.
> 
> And I beg to differ. I mean, of course I am very flawed, but I really don't consume mainstream thinking.
> Well, of course to some degree, since we are all a result of it, but very minimally.
> There is an easy way for you to do the same. High dose of psychedelics. Psilocybin or DMT.
> 
> I haven't claimed to be "so different" either. Now you are reading into it and projecting again.
> I am simply stating facts. I don't understand what's so provoking with me saying I don't pay attention to mainstream culture.


I hope these are the baby stages of the internet because right now half the internet seems to be porn. 

With so man people lamenting mainstream thinking and then exhibiting it themselves, I've stopped having any faith that people actually are separate from mainstream thinking. I think the only psychedelic I've tried was LSD. I did MDMA regularly for a few years in my early teens. People claim I'm not a mainstream thinker, but I am aware of what is going on around me even if I'm not following gossip. I had an alternative upbringing, with a lot of travel. Mainstream isn't necessarily a bad thing. No need to rebel against it. Gotta say, I'm tired of listening to people bad mouth something that they are a part of.


----------



## Brian1

knittigan said:


> My younger brother has Asperger's and something that frustrates me to no end is that he doesn't seem to care about how the things he says affect other people. I know that this isn't true -- it's very hard for him to _tell_ how the things he says are received -- but this is how it comes off a lot of the time.
> 
> In all fairness, though, this same criticism could be made of a lot of xxTx types, myself included.


I think that's the problem with having a disability,most people are people who will scan the surface, and stop there. I show empathy one on one and small groups, but,most people want a one size fits all package. So, the lack of empathy is a perception stereotype of not being able to fit in with the majority. I've been told I'm cold and logical.


----------



## Fedor

monemi said:


> I hope these are the baby stages of the internet because right now half the internet seems to be porn.
> 
> With so man people lamenting mainstream thinking and then exhibiting it themselves, I've stopped having any faith that people actually are separate from mainstream thinking. I think the only psychedelic I've tried was LSD. I did MDMA regularly for a few years in my early teens. People claim I'm not a mainstream thinker, but I am aware of what is going on around me even if I'm not following gossip. I had an alternative upbringing, with a lot of travel. Mainstream isn't necessarily a bad thing. No need to rebel against it. Gotta say, I'm tired of listening to people bad mouth something that they are a part of.


Regarding the psychedelics. If you want to use them to reprogram your brain, I think it's necessary to learn a great deal of information on the subject first. Then after reading about it for at least a few YEARS you should do a high dose of mushrooms or DMT. But well, that's another discussion. I feel like I always bring psychedelics into every topic, haha.

But they are not necessarily a part of it... it can be a conscious choice...

Women..... go be pregnant somewhere else..



































Just kidding. I guess we have to agree to disagree here.:crazy:


----------



## dagnytaggart

A lot of the ones I know unknowingly intrude into personal space. They stand too close to you, stare too much, etc... and I think it triggers territorial reactions.


----------



## LadyO.W.BernieBro

Brian1 said:


> I think that's the problem with having a disability,most people are people who will scan the surface, and stop there. I show empathy one on one and small groups, but,most people want a one size fits all package. So, the lack of empathy is a perception stereotype of not being able to fit in with the majority. I've been told I'm cold and logical.


That's interesting. Maybe it is more of an ''l don't understand/can't deal with you but since l'd feel bad if l just said that, l'd rather say that you're cold and it was your fault'' kind of reaction.

l've often tried to think of the way various disorders are seen through the clinical lens, at least. Not necessarily ''mainstream'' society but at least the DSM and a doctor's personal interpretation.


----------



## LadyO.W.BernieBro

Fedor said:


> Well, mainstream culture is stupid. That's not just my opinion, it's a observable fact.
> If you think I am separating myself... alright. In my opinion the average person is who separates themselves from the world by not acknowledging this.
> And your cousin is schizophrenic, a schizophrenic that has grown up in western culture, of course he won't question it.
> But I can guarantee you he had been feeling better if society did a better job of integrating "his kind" into society.
> 
> You still don't understand what I am saying. I never said society should adjust to ME.
> And I don't put the onus on anyone. If you think that maybe you should read what I wrote again.
> "Responsible for ourselves and our own behavior", I get the feeling you read into what I'm saying to much because of that you possibly have preconceived notions about people with aspergers.
> Of course we are responsible for our own behavior, that doesn't change a thing though.
> 
> Society could still be more well functioning, on many levels, if everybody did their part. I am doing my best to help.
> Or do you think society is perfect?


l always make sure l'm treating someone in direct relation to the way they _act_, regardless of what hever diagnosis they have.

When l started having more contact with my father, nobody in our family knew for sure what his diagnosis was, we were just making (ultimately correct) assumptions based on his history and the family history.

He could have never received an official label, and we still would have treated him the same way, which is to try and work with him but also limit contact as a_ direct_ result of his behavior. lt depends on various factors, he tends to have severe episodes and wind down for a few weeks to a few months but he isn't every truly functional.

Edit: l'm familiar with all of the alternative views surrounding mental illness, l'm just saying that l can't foresee a realistic environment in which his behavior wouldn't be disruptive. lf he wants to go live in the rainforest it's fine by me 

l don't think he would since he doesn't exactly align with the ''enlightened'' shamanesque image that's being projected onto the disorder.
He's actually very_ deeply_ and proudly racist, sexist, and homophobic. Though, not even religious,listening to him rant is like spending time around the Westboro Baptist Church without faith. You won't be imparted with ancient knowledge, just endless tirades about Obamacare.


----------



## Brian1

I think not having the best intuition, has gotten me a lot of bad marks.


----------



## RaidenPrime

monemi said:


> _
> It's difficult to understand the perspective of wanting to tell people that you have a learning disability. Not that I think I'm healthier. It's just that if you look normal, why admit to anything?_


Beautiful. My thoughts exactly. And once you see it as less of a problem it just starts becoming normal, much like everyone else. Many of us have learning disabilities that we hide in order to fit in. Once you can see that it starts becoming normal.


----------



## Number Six

Fedor said:


> Regarding the psychedelics. If you want to use them to reprogram your brain, I think it's necessary to learn a great deal of information on the subject first. Then after reading about it for at least a few YEARS you should do a high dose of mushrooms or DMT. But well, that's another discussion. I feel like I always bring psychedelics into every topic, haha.
> 
> But they are not necessarily a part of it... it can be a conscious choice...


Drugs are part of mainstream culture. Shrooms, acid, salvia and most of the other easy to get psychs, at any rate (not to mention cannabis or synthetics which are probably going to be decriminalized soon). If you argue the case of culture as an operating system, drugs are simply the safety net to catch those who try and escape it. Giving the rebels a quick fix so that they don't actually do anything to change society, but in their heads, they're no longer part of it...while they pay their bills, buy their food, occupy real estate, and all the while looking around believing they've somehow escaped the matrix.

Unless you live outside of mainstream society, you are part of and influenced by it. Trying to resist something only guarantees that it persists. Embracing it tends to transcend any power it has over you. Viewing people as dumb because they live their lives the way they want, while you do the exact same, is...I'll come up with an analogy just for you...

Two horses are pulling a cart. One has blinders, the other does not. The driver whips them on and on. The blind horse is happy to just keep walking, the other is moaning about the way things are, because he wants to run off and explore the world, and yet he doesn't, because being aware of the way things work does not equate to having the strength or the inclination to do something about it.

So is there really any difference between the two horses?


----------



## Fedor

Number Six said:


> Drugs are part of mainstream culture. Shrooms, acid, salvia and most of the other easy to get psychs, at any rate (not to mention cannabis or synthetics which are probably going to be decriminalized soon). If you argue the case of culture as an operating system, drugs are simply the safety net to catch those who try and escape it. Giving the rebels a quick fix so that they don't actually do anything to change society, but in their heads, they're no longer part of it...while they pay their bills, buy their food, occupy real estate, and all the while looking around believing they've somehow escaped the matrix.
> 
> Unless you live outside of mainstream society, you are part of and influenced by it. Trying to resist something only guarantees that it persists. Embracing it tends to transcend any power it has over you. Viewing people as dumb because they live their lives the way they want, while you do the exact same, is...I'll come up with an analogy just for you...
> 
> Two horses are pulling a cart. One has blinders, the other does not. The driver whips them on and on. The blind horse is happy to just keep walking, the other is moaning about the way things are, because he wants to run off and explore the world, and yet he doesn't, because being aware of the way things work does not equate to having the strength or the inclination to do something about it.
> 
> So is there really any difference between the two horses?


Yes, the other horse fucking sees everything. And I bet he does mushrooms too.

Seriously though, you don't really know what I do to change things. It actually is more than you'd think.
But no, I do not live in the rain forest. 
I never really talked about "living outside the matrix" but to see the world for what it is.
People who are dumb tend to not contribute much to the change, people who are informed and know how to view the world from an objective standpoint however tend to be better at this.

You can change things with ideas, art or just spreading information, as mentioned earlier the technology has finally arrived for us to start to do this. We are just seeing the beginning.

And mushrooms aren't just "a fix". A safety net that catches the ones that try to escape it?
You don't understand, man.
Culture = operating system = way of thinking.
If the drug reformats your brain, the same operating system won't be there anymore.

If you didn't listen to the clip with Terence called "culture is your operating system" I advice you to do so.
Saying anything else about a psychedelic is simply an uneducated statement.

And these drugs aren't a part of mainstream culture, that doesn't make any sense.
You could argue that it is just because it exists in our society, but that's not how it works.
It wasn't made by our culture.
Shamanic cultures that goes back further than recorded history has used these tools.
Yes, tools, that's what they saw them as, not "drugs".
Tools for the mind.

You can use meditation too, for that matter. Even if I imagine that is a bit harder to get to the same stage with.


And of course you can't escape paying your bills etc if you want to live in the technological society.
But you can still have a different outlook on the world, and change your life drastically.
You might never watch any of those dumb tv shows again, because you realize how empty they are from something real and creative.
Actually, you might not even buy a TV. You might stop consuming most unnecessary things.

You should see my place, I don't have anything I don't really need besides my computer.
But it's necessary in the sense as a tool I can learn and share information with others with.


And one more thing (I feel like I am answering what you are saying in no order at all, but whatever), you say "call people dumb for living the life they want", sure, it might be a bit harsh of me to call them dumb. Maybe ignorant or just uninformed is the right word.
Maybe they're not living the life they want, maybe they have just been trapped inside the box so they haven't been able to take a look outside, and once again, culture has shaped their opinions.
"Half the time you think you are thinking, you're actually listening" - Terence McKenna


----------



## Number Six

Fedor said:


> Yes, the other horse fucking sees everything. And I bet he does mushrooms too.
> 
> Seriously though, you don't really know what I do to change things. It actually is more than you'd think.
> But no, I do not live in the rain forest.
> I never really talked about "living outside the matrix" but to see the world for what it is.
> People who are dumb tend to not contribute much to the change, people who are informed and know how to view the world from an objective standpoint however tend to be better at this.
> 
> You can change things with ideas, art or just spreading information, as mentioned earlier the technology has finally arrived for us to start to do this. We are just seeing the beginning.
> 
> And mushrooms aren't just "a fix". A safety net that catches the ones that try to escape it?
> You don't understand, man.
> Culture = operating system = way of thinking.
> If the drug reformats your brain, the same operating system won't be there anymore.
> 
> If you didn't listen to the clip with Terence called "culture is your operating system" I advice you to do so.
> Saying anything else about a psychedelic is simply an uneducated statement.
> 
> And these drugs aren't a part of mainstream culture, that doesn't make any sense.
> You could argue that it is just because it exists in our society, but that's not how it works.
> It wasn't made by our culture.
> Shamanic cultures that goes back further than recorded history has used these tools.
> Yes, tools, that's what they saw them as, not "drugs".
> Tools for the mind.
> 
> You can use meditation too, for that matter. Even if I imagine that is a bit harder to get to the same stage with.
> 
> 
> And of course you can't escape paying your bills etc if you want to live in the technological society.
> But you can still have a different outlook on the world, and change your life drastically.
> You might never watch any of those dumb tv shows again, because you realize how empty they are from something real and creative.
> Actually, you might not even buy a TV. You might stop consuming most unnecessary things.
> 
> You should see my place, I don't have anything I don't really need besides my computer.
> But it's necessary in the sense as a tool I can learn and share information with others with.
> 
> 
> And one more thing (I feel like I am answering what you are saying in no order at all, but whatever), you say "call people dumb for living the life they want", sure, it might be a bit harsh of me to call them dumb. Maybe ignorant or just uninformed is the right word.
> Maybe they're not living the life they want, maybe they have just been trapped inside the box so they haven't been able to take a look outside, and once again, culture has shaped their opinions.
> "Half the time you think you are thinking, you're actually listening" - Terence McKenna


The other horse doesn't see everything. He only sees the path that the driver leads him down. Even the driver doesn't see everything, he only sees where he wants to go. The only one not thinking about any of that stuff is the happy blind horse. What an ironic analogy, so early in the morning ;o...it's a bit more optimistic than Plato's cave allegory, if you ask me 

Regarding McKenna, I listened to a lot of his talks, that one included, years ago. I think he was a very interesting man, but he's also a self confessed drug addict that smoked up to 40 spliffs every day of his life for nearly thirty years. As much as I respect someones' opinion, I can't help but think his perspective of reality was somewhat less than objective and perhaps had some deep rooted experiences that he was never able to confront; though I agree with most of what he says, particularly regarding how art is the way one can influence the world for the better...that and his approach to hallucinogens is very reassuring, particularly how he communicates with the "little green men". I think he did a great deal in shattering preconceptions around entheogens.

Reformatting the brain can occur at any time under any circumstance. Some call it epiphany, some call it serendipity, others say they just woke up one day and everything was "different". Putting the power outside of yourself and onto a fungus is not really useful, though, in fact it can be detrimental to the human experience because it externalizes it, rather than internalizes it (the same way "mainstream society" brainwashes people). The effects of psilocybin/lsd/mdma can bring about such alterations, but that's all they are, alterations. 

Drugs are nothing but another experience. Like watching TV, doing sports, shopping, hiking, fucking, meditating. 

Regarding your last point: How you view the world is up to you. You can call people dumb if you want, all I would offer is that your desire to alter their perspective must come from somewhere, or you'd be content to simply enjoy life as it is, and let everyone else do the same. From my experience, people can't accept in others what they can't accept in themselves, so when you see the world as ignorant, you're only recognizing your own ignorance reflected back at you. Perhaps not to the same extent, but on some level. Does this not inspire comradery, compassion and great sense of humor when you realize that you're essentially no different from anyone else? It does for me. 

Perhaps you're yet to realize that there is no box, even though you suspect it to be true? Who knows. I personally think in circles, straight lines irk the fuck out of me.

That's a nice quote, by the way. I enjoy listening though. 

"Having a great intellect is no path to being happy." Stephen Fry

I imagine this is getting off topic, as interesting as we may find it...:laughing:


----------



## Fedor

Number Six said:


> The other horse doesn't see everything. He only sees the path that the driver leads him down. Even the driver doesn't see everything, he only sees where he wants to go. The only one not thinking about any of that stuff is the happy blind horse. What an ironic analogy, so early in the morning ;o...it's a bit more optimistic than Plato's cave allegory, if you ask me
> 
> Regarding McKenna, I listened to a lot of his talks, that one included, years ago. I think he was a very interesting man, but he's also a self confessed drug addict that smoked up to 40 spliffs every day of his life for nearly thirty years. As much as I respect someones' opinion, I can't help but think his perspective of reality was somewhat less than objective and perhaps had some deep rooted experiences that he was never able to confront; though I agree with most of what he says, particularly regarding how art is the way one can influence the world for the better...that and his approach to hallucinogens is very reassuring, particularly how he communicates with the "little green men". I think he did a great deal in shattering preconceptions around entheogens.
> 
> Reformatting the brain can occur at any time under any circumstance. Some call it epiphany, some call it serendipity, others say they just woke up one day and everything was "different". Putting the power outside of yourself and onto a fungus is not really useful, though, in fact it can be detrimental to the human experience because it externalizes it, rather than internalizes it (the same way "mainstream society" brainwashes people). The effects of psilocybin/lsd/mdma can bring about such alterations, but that's all they are, alterations.
> 
> Drugs are nothing but another experience. Like watching TV, doing sports, shopping, hiking, fucking, meditating.
> 
> Regarding your last point: How you view the world is up to you. You can call people dumb if you want, all I would offer is that your desire to alter their perspective must come from somewhere, or you'd be content to simply enjoy life as it is, and let everyone else do the same. From my experience, people can't accept in others what they can't accept in themselves, so when you see the world as ignorant, you're only recognizing your own ignorance reflected back at you. Perhaps not to the same extent, but on some level. Does this not inspire comradery, compassion and great sense of humor when you realize that you're essentially no different from anyone else? It does for me.
> 
> Perhaps you're yet to realize that there is no box, even though you suspect it to be true? Who knows. I personally think in circles, straight lines irk the fuck out of me.
> 
> That's a nice quote, by the way. I enjoy listening though.
> 
> "Having a great intellect is no path to being happy." Stephen Fry
> 
> I imagine this is getting off topic, as interesting as we may find it...:laughing:


But the point is he still sees more than the other horse, so he has more knowledge. But he is also a horse, not a human, the most complex animal on the planet by far. He can't talk, create or make a change about anything, so it doesn't really make sense.

And what has smoking Cannabis every day to do with anything?
How can you know this just didn't help his thinking to be more objective? That's what psychedelics and semi-psychedelics tend to do. It's you who bring in your subjective opinions that it's something bad, and from that point dismisses to some part what he says because of that. "I can't help to think his perspective of reality..."


And no, reformatting the brain can't occur at any moment. An everyday epiphany isn't even close to being the same thing.
An epiphany doesn't change the way you look at every single thing, every second for the rest of your life.
Of course small changes can occur, but not close to what you can reach with psychedelics.
There are numerous studies that show these tremendous effects such as increased open mindedness, increased creativity of psychedelics.
They also show that you become HAPPIER, which also shows that your statement that if you stand outside culture you're less happy to be false. Just gonna add one link, but can add more later if necessary.
Current News Releases

So yeah, calling them "just another experience like watching tv" etc, is simply false. Sure, EVERYTHING is just another experience. You can say that about every single thing in life from eating, to having kids, to going to school. But that's not really relevant because the human is an experiencing being. Actually life itself is experience happening.

I do enjoy my life as it is. But I still try to at least inform people to the extent I can, and try to better the parts of society where a great impact can be made. That has nothing to do with my own quality of life, actually doing these things just makes it better, because you do good for other people.
We have people being bombed every day for instance. Just because that's not happening to us, doesn't mean we should be ok with that and completely oblivious to the fact.

And regarding the stupid aspects in our western culture, they have nothing to do with projection. It is easy to see if you watch what is on TV. Reality shows that has the intelligence level of 5 year olds, a celebrity culture based on stereotypes instead of looking of to actual intelligent people within science, so on and so forth. The examples are endless.
This hasn't been the case in all cultures. It's not something ingrained into human biology, even if this is what has helped develop this because we are looking to fulfill biological needs that we aren't using in our modern society.

Sure, we are all the same on the basic level, it still doesn't change any of these things. That only means we can solve the problems in the world, and I am positive we will. But not with the mentality we have right now.

Listening is dangerous. Einstein had pretty much the same quote "Imagination(creativity) is more important than knowledge".
This is what essentially all the great minds through history has said, and they didn't say it with the intent that it was gonna become a quote that people said for it to sound cool. It actually meant something.

Regarding "the box". What? Of course there can be a box, you can ask any person that has been inside a box like that and left it if they can relate to it. That doesn't mean it needs to literally relate to a box somehow, or however you're reasoning there.

Gonna add YET ANOTHER video of McKenna, where he talks about how the "mainstream" of society is stupid. And I must say this video is pretty spot on.


----------



## Fedor

Also, saying that you're happier by not thinking about what's wrong with our culture is no excuse not to think about it. It doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.
And it's not very hard to see our society in fact is stupid when you look at it objectively.

Look, we are destroying the rain forests at an alarming rate, we pollute the planet, 100s of MILLIONS OF TONS plastic is dumped into the ocean every year, plastic that has bisphenol A in it, which mimics estrogen and fucks up the hormones of both genders.
We drain the planet of all it's resources while taking no consideration to the consequences for one second.
War.. killing kids... culture also make people mutilate babies(boys and girls) all over the planet. 
The examples of the malfunctioning culture is ENDLESS.

There is no way to argue this is an intelligent culture or society. But keeping the head in the sand because it makes you happy is always an alternative, of course.
And you can adapt and be as little part of this culture, just as you can reprogram from say a culture like islam, where you cut off your daughters clitoris. That only happens because of a certain aspect within culture.

So to claim everybody is as much part of our culture in the west is a bit silly, and it's wrong.

And how does this relate to the topic at all anymore?
Because it shows you the relativity of different "operating systems", and "disorders" could also be seen as such.
So to claim that one person has a disorder, when all of the species acts like idiots, is ignorant.


----------



## erodgere

When all of your advisers heave their plastic
At your feet to convince you of your pain
Trying to prove that your conclusions should be more drastic
Won’t you come see me, Queen Jane?
Won’t you come see me, Queen Jane?






Read more: Queen Jane Approximately | The Official Bob Dylan Site


----------



## Number Six

@_Fedor_

I agree with most of what you say, except that eating mushrooms somehow doesn't compare to the life altering epiphanies that others experience, that just sounds arrogant and your citing misinformation. To my knowledge the only scientific evidence surrounding entheogenic use in mainstream society states that it improves ones mood for months after the experience. To say that it alters ones perspective for ever is hyperbole. Everything does that.

I'm tired, so let's just agree to agree mostly. If you choose to view the world as fucked up, that's your prerogative. If I choose to see it as an extension of our own internalized state of discontent, or lack thereof, that's mine. People can change the world, but I don't expect you'll convince them to do that by pointing out their stupidity while you fall short of doing anything else. 

Being a decent human being is all anyone can really do to change the world. Leading by example. Personally, walking around and thinking I'm somehow different than everyone else is a perspective I'd rather not share. It's something I'd like to grow out of sooner rather than later.

Since you brought up Einstein, I thought this was apt;



It's regarding a fathers loss after his child died of polio. He's saying, in my opinion, that loss, as with all form of discontent experienced through life, is simply an illusion created by the self concept, and that peace of mind is attained by transcending it/assimilating it, not by feeding energy to it. Maybe I misinterpret. Too tired to care. 

Point is, if you want people to be smart, show them what smart is. Telling someone they are stupid is the epitome of stupidity. Educating someone in a way they can understand is true intelligence.

...and no I'm not saying you're stupid, I'm only suggesting that if you want people to listen, you communicate in terms that won't create a sense of separation. 

Good night.


----------



## Playful Proxy

The only person I met who legitimately bothered me was one guy who honestly didn't know how to get the hint that I didn't care what he was talking about and no matter how hard I tried without being blunt, I couldn't get him to shut up.


----------



## Fedor

Number Six said:


> @_Fedor_
> 
> I agree with most of what you say, except that eating mushrooms somehow doesn't compare to the life altering epiphanies that others experience, that just sounds arrogant and your citing misinformation. To my knowledge the only scientific evidence surrounding entheogenic use in mainstream society states that it improves ones mood for months after the experience. To say that it alters ones perspective for ever is hyperbole. Everything does that.
> 
> I'm tired, so let's just agree to agree mostly. If you choose to view the world as fucked up, that's your prerogative. If I choose to see it as an extension of our own internalized state of discontent, or lack thereof, that's mine. People can change the world, but I don't expect you'll convince them to do that by pointing out their stupidity while you fall short of doing anything else.
> 
> Being a decent human being is all anyone can really do to change the world. Leading by example. Personally, walking around and thinking I'm somehow different than everyone else is a perspective I'd rather not share. It's something I'd like to grow out of sooner rather than later.
> 
> Since you brought up Einstein, I thought this was apt;
> 
> 
> 
> It's regarding a fathers loss after his child died of polio. He's saying, in my opinion, that loss, as with all form of discontent experienced through life, is simply an illusion created by the self concept, and that peace of mind is attained by transcending it/assimilating it, not by feeding energy to it. Maybe I misinterpret. Too tired to care.
> 
> Point is, if you want people to be smart, show them what smart is. Telling someone they are stupid is the epitome of stupidity. Educating someone in a way they can understand is true intelligence.
> 
> ...and no I'm not saying you're stupid, I'm only suggesting that if you want people to listen, you communicate in terms that won't create a sense of separation.
> 
> Good night.


There are plenty of studies on psychedelics showing permanent life altering results.
You will also hear this from any serious "psychonaut" that is somewhat educated on the subject and are doing them in the right doses, the right way.

That Einstein quote is in relation to the nature of reality and consciousness. I agree that all is one, there is no actual separation.
I am you and what I see is me.

That doesn't mean there aren't differences in culture and the ways people view this reality.
This discussion itself is a proof of that. And this obviously creates a lot of problems in the world.
If everybody understood each other perfectly and we had a well functioning culture, we would be living in something close to a paradise.

And I never called anyone stupid in person. Pretty sure most people on here are fairly intelligent since they are on a internet forum discussing issues like this.
What I did call stupid was the culture we live in, and I stand by that.

And this "I'm only suggesting that if you want people to listen, you communicate in terms that won't create a sense of separation" is pretty funny, since this is a thread about aspergers. I get to hear this often.
From my (asperger) perspective this isn't easy to do at all, and in my opinion a person should be able to view the information objectively no matter what way it is delivered, as long as I'm not being a total douchebag and shouting in your face of course, but I don't think I have done that. If not you are mixing in to much emotions when trying to process this information, and this in itself will be a problem to correctly interpret it no matter what way I say it.


And regarding your "shouldn't try to be different from others" I must say I have to disagree, a lot.
I think people should try to be as different from others as they possibly can.
The fundamentals and the biology is the same, which is important to understand so that you can accept others as fellow human beings and feel connected with them. But culturally you shouldn't, you should try to be as unique and eccentric as you possibly can. That's what I think.

Another aspect of our culture is the educational system that teaches everybody the same thing, and kills creativity, and makes all individuals more or less the same. This is a big problem and prevents new important ideas from coming into fruition.
We NEED people to be different. But no matter how different we become, we are still all the same.

Of course I don't see myself from separated from anything else. That is one of the greatest insights you get from psychedelics.
When you become one with the universe and stare into the beginning and the end of time at the same time, you realize there isn't separation between anything.


----------



## Judson Joist

I have a friend who might be an Aspie. He wasn't clinically diagnosed, but he has all the symptoms, conducted independent research, and believes himself to be an Aspie. I recall him mentioning that his MBTI is INFP, though he projects a more INTP vibe, plus he's an IT specialist and is exceeding adept at it. Not merely a "code monkey" as the song says, but someone with a real passion for the work. Anyway, we've been friends since, like, 6th grade in the early '90s, were roommates in college in the late '90s, and live not far from each other.

We've always had idiosyncratic quirks that irk each other, though. One of mine is severe clumsiness, like I'm not sympatico with my surrounding environs or whatnot. Example: When we were in college, back in 1999, I was frying some sliced SPAM and it started to burn, so I grabbed the frying pan, ran over the door, opened the door, and instead of setting the hot frying pan on the concrete step of the porch, panicked and ended up setting it on the carpet, burning a "perfect circle" (a band whose demonic philosophy I oppose, btw) in the shag carpet, thereby ensuring that we wouldn't get a refund on the security deposit of the apartment. He was none too pleased. I felt shamed.

As for his quirks that irk my funky self, he doesn't "get" how my intuition works. He tends to talk over me, cut me off, or act disinterested in things I have to say when the topic is of an esoteric or abstract nature, almost like he's devoted to a dogmatic interpretation of existence. We're both Christians, but whereas he's orthodox, I'm Apostolic (which means I'm a heretic in orthodox eyes). Whereas he refuses to be receptive to the wisdom of those outside his dogma, I'm receptive to the wisdom of anyone I deem a "sage" such as Rabbi Daniel Lapin. I'm willing to learn from Jews, Catholics, secularists, anyone who proposes an ethical ideal that can be applied to concrete reality on a universal level.

Also, when I want to show him a video I've made, he acts like it's some kind of tedious chore for him to watch it, even if it's less than five minutes long (most of my vids are 10-15 minutes long). Kinda hurts that he won't even humor me. On the flipside, if he wants me to listen to him play a portion of a song on guitar or drums, or if he wants me to watch a movie with him, or an episode of a TV show, I always acquiesce.

He doesn't buy into MBTI or any other psychoanalytic system. He believes all people are different by design and cannot be categorized. I agree with that to an extent, though I believe people have similarities as well as differences (w/o either detracting from individual identity), but he assumes psychoanalytic systems pigeonhole people into categories. I recognize that they can be misused in that way, but unlike him, I also recognize that they can be used to subvert that very bigotry.

He gets annoyed when I psychoanalyze fictional characters. He's always telling me that "fictional characters don't have psychometric profiles" whenever I compare the psychometric profiles of fictional characters to real people. To me, this indicates that he doesn't "get" the purpose of art and literature on an intuitive level the way I do, since - after all - storytellers are trying to show us something about the humyn condition. I often find myself explaining to him that a storyteller creates characters to stand as representations of ideas and ideals. Or more simply put, "the purpose of mythos is to illustrate ethos." When I phrase it that way, it becomes easier for him to understand.

Also, I think he choked back tears when I showed him this video after I told him it would remind him of us.
roud:





He doesn't even like the movie, itself. We're both obsessive about ethics and ideals, but when it comes to movies, music, video games, and other pop culture media, we're very different. There are points of overlap, though, such as Star Wars and Superman.

In a typical scenario, movies that I tend to regard as artistically and/or philosophically brilliant, he tends to regard as trivial and/or predictable. He doesn't overanalyze the individual nuances of a story or its characters the way I do. So, therefore, he doesn't intuitively empathize with the story's ethos or mythos. He also isn't tearfully nostalgic like I am.


----------



## Chesire Tower

OMG WTF BRO said:


> l always make sure l'm treating someone in direct relation to the way they _act_, regardless of what hever diagnosis they have.


I wholeheartedly concur. I think that sometimes people can get to stuck into labels and fail to view the individual as a whole. So and so may have X disorder but it's never _all_ they are. Unfortunately, we live in a categorizing, classification obsessed society and are intolerant or at the very least, reluctant, to accept differences in people.

P.S. I just want to state that my opinion on my ADHD was misunderstood. I don't usually talk about it but sometimes, it can make things easier. I think the important thing is to not use one's disability like a crutch and more as a tool, to further greater understanding amongst people.

It must be rough dealing with your dad; you have my sympathies.


----------



## Kabosu

I've been told I might have this by a lot of people I know, but some of that was, as said before, during the time it was seen as a more flavor of the month diagnosis. My grandma lived with me for 3 1/2 years and thinks that or at least tells me and others she thinks that.


----------



## Number Six

Fedor said:


> And this "I'm only suggesting that if you want people to listen, you communicate in terms that won't create a sense of separation" is pretty funny, since this is a thread about aspergers. I get to hear this often.
> From my (asperger) perspective this isn't easy to do at all, and in my opinion a person should be able to view the information objectively no matter what way it is delivered, as long as I'm not being a total douchebag and shouting in your face of course, but I don't think I have done that. If not you are mixing in to much emotions when trying to process this information, and this in itself will be a problem to correctly interpret it no matter what way I say it.




You make it sound like you view information objectively. In fact you couldn't interpret my horse analogy because you were too concerned with bending it to your own bias. I've heard people use things like bipolar and autism to excuse their behavior all my life. I've also expressed my opinion on it in this thread already. ToM is something most people grasp by adulthood, even those with high functioning autism. 



> And regarding your "shouldn't try to be different from others" I must say I have to disagree, a lot.
> I think people should try to be as different from others as they possibly can.
> The fundamentals and the biology is the same, which is important to understand so that you can accept others as fellow human beings and feel connected with them. But culturally you shouldn't, you should try to be as unique and eccentric as you possibly can. That's what I think.


I'd rather not reread my own posts, but that doesn't sound like something I'd ever say, and if I did, I'll excuse myself with half asleep delirium.

...I'd also be interested to read these studies that prove mushrooms alter life permanently. That seems an intriguing claim for any scientist to make.

Good morning.


----------



## StElmosDream

TreasureTower said:


> I wholeheartedly concur. I think that sometimes people can get to stuck into labels and fail to view the individual as a whole. So and so may have X disorder but it's never _all_ they are. Unfortunately, we live in a categorizing, classification obsessed society and are intolerant or at the very least, reluctant, to accept differences in people.


What seems most sad is those with such challenges may buy into a diagnosis or ways of being treated themselves(WII's often comes to mind; well intended idiots that do everything for 'a disadvantaged person' or start telling others the proper way followed by 'since you have xyz challenge you need educating to fit in'), playing the social game of 'wooden leg' i.e. I have been told I am socially immature, what do people expect me to be behave like as an [insert pathology or issue minority group].

What I find most interesting is how intelligence or degrees of societal adjustment can cripple a persons life opportunities, briefly meeting a man on the more severe side of Intellectual Developmental Disorder that volunteered 2-4 times a week unpaid doing basic administration tasks yet there seemed to be no support to get him a paid job doing exactly the same thing.
In contrast, how all too often when someone with a disorder or mental challenge achieves a Community College or Degree level education suddenly they are seen as 'perfect model citizens' even if actual job prospects or something as basic as completing forms are more challenging for them.


----------



## Fedor

Number Six said:


> You make it sound like you view information objectively. In fact you couldn't interpret my horse analogy because you were too concerned with bending it to your own bias. I've heard people use things like bipolar and autism to excuse their behavior all my life. I've also expressed my opinion on it in this thread already. ToM is something most people grasp by adulthood, even those with high functioning autism.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd rather not reread my own posts, but that doesn't sound like something I'd ever say, and if I did, I'll excuse myself with half asleep delirium.
> 
> ...I'd also be interested to read these studies that prove mushrooms alter life permanently. That seems an intriguing claim for any scientist to make.
> 
> Good morning.


Haha. I knew very well what your horse analogy meant. It was pretty elementary level. I just made fun of it a little though, because I didn't think it was very relevant or made sense.

And I'm not sure if you think I excuse anything. I am simply explaining something from my point of view, and I also explained why it didn't matter how I explained something, but that the information itself is what's important.
In other words, I tried to explain that the differences in thinking and the way we interpret speech and so on, is what led to problems in communication.
But yeah, you're right that most people are unable to do that(listen to somebody when they don't speak in a way they find enjoyable), that's why most people buy everything politicians say, for the reason they are good speakers, not that they actually make sense.
I don't know what "ToM" is though.

You didn't literally say you should be different from others, but that if someone saw themselves as different, it was something wrong with that. And that's just as bad and pretty much means the same thing.


I added one of these studies earlier from john hopkins where the results show they _may_ have life altering effects.
At least it proves a unaltered change years later. The problem with proving permanent changes is that you would have to have people to test until the end of their life.
Another problem is that psychedelic studies aren't getting enough money, not even close.
Pharmaceutical companies aren't interested in sponsoring these kind of studies, because there is nothing to gain from it.

But yeah, you can google more studies than only that one if you want. And as you can see it shows change as long as they have looked, and there are no signs of these changes to "go away".
If you also take witness accounts into the equation it will only support that statement even further.

A change still has to be what the person who uses it themselves think, don't you?
The thing is, if you experience something like you do on high doses, you _can't_ forget that.
You will live your life knowing that this other world exists, and it does change you. It did it for me too.
It has helped me tremendously.

"This personality warp is unusual, said study researcher Katherine MacLean, because personality rarely changes much after the age of 25 or 30. (In fact, one recent study found that by first grade our personalities are set pretty much for life.)"This is one of the first studies to show that you actually can change adult personality," said MacLean, a postdoctoral researcher at The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine."

"Many years later, people are saying it was one of the most profound experiences of their life," MacLean said. "If you think about it in that context, it's not that surprising that it might be permanent."


----------



## Number Six

Fedor said:


> Haha. I knew very well what your horse analogy meant. It was pretty elementary level. I just made fun of it a little though, because I didn't think it was very relevant or made sense.


I suspect it's because you don't like thinking you're no different from the horse with blinders.



> And I'm not sure if you think I excuse anything. I am simply explaining something from my point of view, and I also explained why it didn't matter how I explained something, but that the information itself is what's important.
> In other words, I tried to explain that the differences in thinking and the way we interpret speech and so on, is what led to problems in communication.
> But yeah, you're right that most people are unable to do that(listen to somebody when they don't speak in a way they find enjoyable), that's why most people buy everything politicians say, for the reason they are good speakers, not that they actually make sense.


I wouldn't know.




> I don't know what "ToM" is though.


It means theory of mind. It's the very basis of differentiating autism from a neuro-typical response. And it's something that improves over time in most adults.



> You didn't literally say you should be different from others, but that if someone saw themselves as different, it was something wrong with that. And that's just as bad and pretty much means the same thing.


I didn't say that either. You are inferring, which I find ironic considering you place so much emphasis on objectivity. I said there -is no difference- and that believing otherwise simply causes problems because it creates separation, communication problems and reduces the chance to relate. 

I'll admit I haven't actually reread what I said...I'm only certain that you're putting words in my mouth because I don't think in terms of right/wrong.



> I added one of these studies earlier from john hopkins where the results show they _may_ have life altering effects.
> At least it proves a unaltered change years later. The problem with proving permanent changes is that you would have to have people to test until the end of their life.


Yes. That's quite an important word. When you tell people taking psychotropic drugs will alter their life forever, and neglect to add it, it becomes misinformation, as I said.



> Another problem is that psychedelic studies aren't getting enough money, not even close.
> Pharmaceutical companies aren't interested in sponsoring these kind of studies, because there is nothing to gain from it.


Yes, it's quite pathetic, but c'est la vie. Things change and people aren't idiots. They say it takes on average one hundred years for a stagnant societal belief system to break down and change...essentially ignorant parents die, enlightened children reeducate and the cycle continues. I think that is speeding up, as you mentioned earlier - information is more readily available than ever before, and in the UK at least, the medicinal and therapeutic uses of substances like lsd, mdma and cannabis have been broadcast on mainstream TV over the last few years, because these substances can be used by pharma companies. In fact, I know that several huge investors have begun conglomerating on cannabis in particular because of the potential financial return from hemp.

Oh, and I found this; 









> A change still has to be what the person who uses it themselves think, don't you?


Yes. That's why I said it's no more life altering than someone who has an epiphany. If it totally alters their view of reality forever, who are we to question it?




> The thing is, if you experience something like you do on high doses, you _can't_ forget that.
> You will live your life knowing that this other world exists, and it does change you. It did it for me too.
> It has helped me tremendously.


I'm glad it has. I'm certain it will continue to help countless others, too. But as I said two days ago, we're way off topic and still going on about a subject that from what I can gather...we agree on.


----------



## jadedtortoise

my issue with most aspies is that they make no effort to get therapy/intervention to perhaps increase their quality of live. I have been fortunate to have befriended 3 aspies over the years and I know that they are capable of great depth, very intelligent and *CAN* be extremely loyal. Mostly I witness an almost obsessive trend of self-pity, loathing that can suck the life out a room. I realize its hard for an aspie to fully understand their self-esteem with this impairment, but I've noticed a strong reluctance to break out of negative/ defeatist thinking. 

Basically, I have an issue with the obsessing, it creates an overwhelmingly monotonous one-sided encounter. Also, I would say that they often can be flaky & forgetful since they are often extremely preoccupied with their interests, or current environment.

These are people who require LOTS of patience and understanding. Once you get through the confusion you definitely understand that they are worth it.


----------



## Fedor

Number Six said:


> I suspect it's because you don't like thinking you're no different from the horse with blinders.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It means theory of mind. It's the very basis of differentiating autism from a neuro-typical response. And it's something that improves over time in most adults.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't say that either. You are inferring, which I find ironic considering you place so much emphasis on objectivity. I said there -is no difference- and that believing otherwise simply causes problems because it creates separation, communication problems and reduces the chance to relate.
> 
> I'll admit I haven't actually reread what I said...I'm only certain that you're putting words in my mouth because I don't think in terms of right/wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. That's quite an important word. When you tell people taking psychotropic drugs will alter their life forever, and neglect to add it, it becomes misinformation, as I said.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it's quite pathetic, but c'est la vie. Things change and people aren't idiots. They say it takes on average one hundred years for a stagnant societal belief system to break down and change...essentially ignorant parents die, enlightened children reeducate and the cycle continues. I think that is speeding up, as you mentioned earlier - information is more readily available than ever before, and in the UK at least, the medicinal and therapeutic uses of substances like lsd, mdma and cannabis have been broadcast on mainstream TV over the last few years, because these substances can be used by pharma companies. In fact, I know that several huge investors have begun conglomerating on cannabis in particular because of the potential financial return from hemp.
> 
> Oh, and I found this;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. That's why I said it's no more life altering than someone who has an epiphany. If it totally alters their view of reality forever, who are we to question it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad it has. I'm certain it will continue to help countless others, too. But as I said two days ago, we're way off topic and still going on about a subject that from what I can gather...we agree on.


You can suspect whatever you want. By here I am talking facts. And the fact is I didn't think the analogy made sense, objectively speaking.

And that you're saying that there *is no difference*, is the same thing. And it's also false.
There is a difference between people with "disorders" and those who don't.
Sometimes a very big difference. If you yourself can't relate to people because of paranoia where you feel aliens listen to your thoughts all the time and the government will come get you with some new weapon they have created.
Or maybe if you can't relate to feelings in the normal sense because you don't have the same type of feelings.

Or in psychopaths for instance, they really don't give a fuck about what you feel and they don't feel empathy, because of their inactive amygdalas. Are they different?

These peoples neurons don't fire the same way as the average joe.

If you don't have any of these issues yourself however, you have no right to say there is no difference, because it's simply false.
What creates separation is peoples unwillingness to understand these "disorders".
From my own experience it's not the people with the disorders that creates this separation, it's most of the time the people without them.


What word is important regarding the psychedelic studies? And how does it become misinformation?
You lost me. Fact is that they permanently change you, however.
Because you experience something that can't be experienced in the real world.
The only things that can change you in this way is psychedelics, meditation or some type of psychosis.
Because these are the only things that actually will give you an insight to a completely abstract understanding of the world.

An "epiphany" might change you too, but not remotely close. Maybe it will change you in the way as say smoking weed, or taking a low dose mushrooms. But no, it WON'T do the same as a high dose mushrooms in a regulated setting (shamanic settings), meditation over many years, or in some cases a psychosis.
Saying anything else simply proves you haven't done it. Everybody has epiphanies, but when they do a high dose of mushrooms it's a completely different thing.
It really is like comparing going fishing with going to space and visiting another galaxy, and saying they are both equally life changing because they are both experiences.
Actually I would say it's even bigger of a difference than that.
Intergalactic space travel and meeting aliens isn't ANYTHING compared to a high dose of mushrooms.
You WILL travel to another dimension and talk to aliens, and they will communicate with you through telepathy and give you all the love and knowledge there is in the universe, while you are one with the godhead.
Actually... it's completely indescribable, I'm just trying to describe it with my human language, which is impossible.

I don't like when people say that. Because it is simply not true, and it continues to keep people from understanding hallucinogenics true potential.

The medicinal use of some psychedelic substances get broadcast every now and then because you can't stop peoples will from getting through. It doesn't prove anything what the pharmaceutical companies really want, though.
They do not want mushrooms legal, because that would destroy their revenue from antidepressants and so forth.
It doesn't really make the argument that mainstream culture isn't stupid.

Humans aren't stupid, I never claimed that. Our culture however, obviously is.
Saying that isn't causing separation or anything, it is simply looking at a problem. A big problem we are facing.
Will we ignore it and destroy ourselves, or will we deal with it?
Culture is like something you wear. You are not it.

Regarding cannabis, it's only a semi-psychedelic and it's really nothing like a real psychedelic. So it's not really relevant.
Another reason to why big pharma can't completely ignore it anymore it's because how widely used it is.
They understand that it will damage their business soon anyway, since so many will chose that instead of their medicines, and they don't want to lose all that profit.

And we are indeed way off topic, hehe.
But I still think it's relevant to the subject. Both because I think it all relates.
Culture gives us preconceived notions on everything from how you should dress to what a personality disorder is.
And psychedelics changes this in a few hours.


Also because I think psychedelics can be very very useful for people with aspergers/autism or whatever you want to call it.
Before doing psychedelics I had a hard time functioning because of the simply fact I felt less than other people.
Because the average person do treat you like an idiot when they know you have aspergers.
After however, I realized it's not really their fault that they do that and it saved my life.
Same thing has happened for many I have knows through the years with disorders.


----------



## Fedor

And the girl in here with a schizophrenic cousin. Not sure if you watched the video, maybe you prefer text.
But this is how it is.

A shaman is someone who swims in the same ocean as the schizophrenic, but the shaman has thousands and thousands of years of sanctioned technique and tradition to draw upon. In a traditional society, if you exhibited “schizophrenic” tendencies, you are immediately drawn out of the pack and put under the care and tutelage of master shamans. You are told, _You are special. Your abilities are very central to the health of our society. You will cure. You will prophesy. You will guide our society in its most fundamental decisions_. Contrast this with what a person exhibiting schizophrenic activity in our society is told. They’re told, _You don’t fit in. You are becoming a problem, You don’t pull your own weight. You are not of equal worth to the rest of us. You are sick. You have to go to the hospital. You have to be locked up. You are on a par with prisoners and lost dogs in our society._So that treatment of schizophrenia makes it incurable. Imagine if you were slightly odd, and the solution were to take you and put you – lock you into a place where everyone was seriously mad. That would drive anyone mad! If you’ve ever been in a madhouse, you know that it’s an environment calculated to make you crazy and to keep you crazy. This would never happen in an aboriginal or traditional society.



Schizophrenia might be a natural difference in the human brain.
We need to adapt to them. To welcome them more. Treat them differently from what we do.
That's not their job, regardless what your cousin thinks about it. It would be easier for them, and they'd live better lives.


----------



## Number Six

Fedor said:


> And that you're saying that there *is no difference*, is the same thing. And it's also false.
> There is a difference between people with "disorders" and those who don't.


Yes, the people with disorders believe they are different. There are people who believe Michael Jackson's ghost visits them at night and lulls them to sleep with the thriller dance. Now who am I to question that believe? No one. It's just a subjective interpretation of phenomena. If you want to say that the word disorder and what it quantifies makes someone different, that's entirely up to you. 



> Sometimes a very big difference. If you yourself can't relate to people because of paranoia where you feel aliens listen to your thoughts all the time and the government will come get you with some new weapon they have created.
> Or maybe if you can't relate to feelings in the normal sense because you don't have the same type of feelings.


The great thing about psychiatry in 2013 is that I can literally apply the word disorder to every single facet of society, so your theory of differentiating falls in on itself. Even people who lack any discernible disorder are now disordered, because it's so out of place, they are a minority and can thus be objectively pigeonholed. Even happiness is being considered a disorder now. 



> Or in psychopaths for instance, they really don't give a fuck about what you feel and they don't feel empathy, because of their inactive amygdalas. Are they different?


Just a word. They're still people, living out their lives like everyone else.



> These peoples neurons don't fire the same way as the average joe.


Well technically they do. Take autism for example. It's a result of excessive mirror neurons resulting in an overstimulation of the limbic system that causes one to either feel too much and thus be unable to actually integrate said social information, or literally shut down in order to mimic like everyone else. It's got nothing to do with how the neurons fire. Misfiring neurons are a result of dis ease, and dis ease and neuroplasticity and the bodie's penchant for health can return this to a state where it no longer causes the individual problems.



> If you don't have any of these issues yourself however, you have no right to say there is no difference, because it's simply false.


I don't think in terms of right or wrong. Told you that already. My issues by definition would cause me more trouble than they're worth if I were to be honest with a shrink. So I embrace them. I laugh at them. When I do something disordered? I pick myself up, pat myself on the head and tell myself "it's alright, you're only human." 




> What creates separation is peoples unwillingness to understand these "disorders".


Or people who think disorders make them different and thus potentiate their disorder further?




> From my own experience it's not the people with the disorders that creates this separation, it's most of the time the people without them.


Sorry, but I'll openly disagree with this one. You're inferring that people don't have power over themselves and aren't responsible for their own lives. I call shenanigans. Everyone's life is their responsibility. If you live life in a way that isolates you, it's not up to everyone else to understand this and wait at your front door for when you're finally ready to get over the word "disorder".




> What word is important regarding the psychedelic studies? And how does it become misinformation?


"may". I'll let you figure the last part out, I've got work soon.



> You lost me. Fact is that they permanently change you, however.


Blowing your nose changes you permanently. Neurologically speaking...which is of course how you're referencing psychedelics too.



> Because you experience something that can't be experienced in the real world.


Not true. People can experience things that go beyond psychedelics in the real world and mean just as much if not more because they weren't induced synthetically. You seem quite ignorant to this in particular.



> The only things that can change you in this way is psychedelics, meditation or some type of psychosis.
> Because these are the only things that actually will give you an insight to a completely abstract understanding of the world.


That's rather closed minded of you. I read a book by the Jungian analyst Robert Johnson over the summer and it was 400 pages based around an experience he had as a child after losing his leg in a car accident, where the world fell away and he experienced what he could only describe as the "Golden World." He later experienced the same thing while spending the summer alone in the woods looking after a control tower, and later in his adult life when he was in India. The only one induced by trauma was the first. He's still alive, so maybe he's experienced it again? Maybe you'd like to rationalize this with a disorder like schizophrenia...but since he worked directly with Carl Jung, I somehow doubt it.



> An "epiphany" might change you too, but not remotely close. Maybe it will change you in the way as say smoking weed, or taking a low dose mushrooms. But no, it WON'T do the same as a high dose mushrooms in a regulated setting (shamanic settings), meditation over many years, or in some cases a psychosis.


Life altering experience is life altering experience. Letting your personal bias into the picture to cloud your judgement is really narrow minded. Who are you to say which one is more significant? 



> Saying anything else simply proves you haven't done it. Everybody has epiphanies, but when they do a high dose of mushrooms it's a completely different thing.


Actually, it only highlights your own ignorance. Why you'd assume I haven't done something because I'm not accepting your bias regarding drugs is quite funny. You throw words like proof and permanent around quite frivolously.



> It really is like comparing going fishing with going to space and visiting another galaxy, and saying they are both equally life changing because they are both experiences.
> Actually I would say it's even bigger of a difference than that.
> Intergalactic space travel and meeting aliens isn't ANYTHING compared to a high dose of mushrooms.
> You WILL travel to another dimension and talk to aliens, and they will communicate with you through telepathy and give you all the love and knowledge there is in the universe, while you are one with the godhead.
> Actually... it's completely indescribable, I'm just trying to describe it with my human language, which is impossible.


The irony of course being that the one telling me this has only experienced one and not the other. 

"I went fishing dude and was just like...I couldn't do it. I couldn't kill the little thing...I just realised it was me...we were one, you know? Why should it die to keep me distracted? I've never felt anything like it...like the universe took a big yawn and filled me up with cosmic love...it was the most beautiful thing I've ever experienced...time just stopped...the world disappeared for a while...seriously man you gotta go fishing."

"My experience was better than your experience, mine had aliens! Yours doesn't even compare!"

Just seems a lame comparison based on juvenile understanding of what people can experience without the effect of drugs...



> I don't like when people say that. Because it is simply not true, and it continues to keep people from understanding hallucinogenics true potential. The medicinal use of some psychedelic substances get broadcast every now and then because you can't stop peoples will from getting through. It doesn't prove anything what the pharmaceutical companies really want, though.


They want money.



> They do not want mushrooms legal, because that would destroy their revenue from antidepressants and so forth.
> It doesn't really make the argument that mainstream culture isn't stupid.


You're very capricious. You make one statement, then contradict it in the next quite a lot.



> Humans aren't stupid, I never claimed that. Our culture however, obviously is.
> Saying that isn't causing separation or anything, it is simply looking at a problem. A big problem we are facing.
> Will we ignore it and destroy ourselves, or will we deal with it?
> Culture is like something you wear. You are not it.


That's fair enough. I think you should continue doing what you feel is right. The world is certainly a mismatch of stupid systems, I just don't see any difference between someone who watches TV and someone who eats acid if neither of them actually actively work to change this. Even then I still don't see a difference, however I'll respect one more than the other...which is simply my own bias coming out to play.



> Regarding cannabis, it's only a semi-psychedelic and it's really nothing like a real psychedelic. So it's not really relevant.


It's exceptionally psychedelic, actually, and it's relevant because it is a naturally medicinal plant with huge revenue potential.








> Also because I think psychedelics can be very very useful for people with aspergers/autism or whatever you want to call it.
> Before doing psychedelics I had a hard time functioning because of the simply fact I felt less than other people.
> Because the average person do treat you like an idiot when they know you have aspergers.
> After however, I realized it's not really their fault that they do that and it saved my life.
> Same thing has happened for many I have knows through the years with disorders.


And like I said, I agree with this. But telling someone they should do something like drugs is stupid. It could encourage someone to go out and gobble up 10grams of shrooms because their depression is so extreme they'll do anything to fix it, and then ending up in a mental institute because they had a psychotic break.

Glorifying something is never a good idea when you're discussing someone who has, as you put it, a "disorder". It can lead to all types of problems because they person didn't understand what they were doing, and even if you reiterate that they ought to have educated themselves first, your idealization of the topic in the first place would still be the impetus that led them down that road, perhaps before they were ready.

Drugs are just drugs. Another experience to go in the bag of life.

I'll add I think it's great you want to spread awareness. More people should, but glorifying experience at the expense of relating to those you're trying to inform is self defeating.


----------



## Laeona

I was trying to keep up with this thread last night. I'm always trying to understand people better. Today, one of my friends texted and said he'd watched one of the most amazing movies that he'd thought I'd like. It was about someone with Asperger's. The timing was interesting.

White Frog





I want to see this. In the end, we're all different. The best we can do is try to understand each other.


----------



## Snakecharmer

jadedtortoise said:


> Basically, I have an issue with the obsessing, it creates an overwhelmingly monotonous one-sided encounter. Also, I would say that they often can be flaky & forgetful since they are often extremely preoccupied with their interests, or current environment.
> 
> These are people who require LOTS of patience and understanding. Once you get through the confusion you definitely understand that they are worth it.


I'll admit to having the characteristics you describe above. I tend to get completely sucked in - obsessed - with things I'm interested in, and sometimes honestly don't even hear people who are trying to talk to me. I'm very forgetful too and have to use sticky notes to remind myself to do things.


----------



## PaladinX

Number Six said:


> Well technically they do. Take autism for example. It's a result of excessive mirror neurons resulting in an overstimulation of the limbic system that causes one to either feel too much and thus be unable to actually integrate said social information, or literally shut down in order to mimic like everyone else. It's got nothing to do with how the neurons fire. Misfiring neurons are a result of dis ease, and dis ease and neuroplasticity and the bodie's penchant for health can return this to a state where it no longer causes the individual problems.


Eh?

When did they figure out the cause of autism? Cite source please.


----------



## Number Six

PaladinX said:


> Eh?
> 
> When did they figure out the cause of autism? Cite source please.


http://www.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/nouchinelab/pdfs/Hadjikhani_MNS%26autism_chapter.pdf

I wouldn't say "figure out" btw. The brain is a mishmash of ever changing play doh that makes it inherently difficult to "figure" anything out. We can analyse the crap out of it but as long as people treat it like the end all and be all of a human being, it'll remain a mystery to empirical science. This is why I say autism and people who treat themselves as disordered are making their situation more difficult - because it makes it sound like an inherent aspect of personality rather than a facet of their neurology that can be changed with practice and patience. 

Also, it won't let me C/P but if you don't want to read all of that, the studies that relate specifically to the limbic and MNS start around 157. [Fischl and Dale, 2000], [Avikaien, Wohlschlager, Liuhanen, Hanninen, Hari, 2003], [Nishitani, Avikainen, Hari, 2004] are the first.


----------



## monemi

Number Six said:


> http://www.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/nouchinelab/pdfs/Hadjikhani_MNS%26autism_chapter.pdf
> 
> I wouldn't say "figure out" btw. The brain is a mishmash of ever changing play doh that makes it inherently difficult to "figure" anything out. We can analyse the crap out of it but as long as people treat it like the end all and be all of a human being, it'll remain a mystery to empirical science. This is why I say autism and people who treat themselves as disordered are making their situation more difficult - because it makes it sound like an inherent aspect of personality rather than a facet of their neurology that can be changed with practice and patience.
> 
> Also, it won't let me C/P but if you don't want to read all of that, the studies that relate specifically to the limbic and MNS start around 157. [Fischl and Dale, 2000], [Avikaien, Wohlschlager, Liuhanen, Hanninen, Hari, 2003], [Nishitani, Avikainen, Hari, 2004] are the first.


Neuroplasticity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think our minds are much more elastic than people think. Our minds aren't Humpty Dumpty. We're resilient and we can adapt to our situations much better than presumed. There have been times in my life when people treated me like glass, but I didn't start the real recovery until I was shown that I'm made of hard rubber. I bounce back, grow and learn. My mind is not set in stone.


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## Number Six

monemi said:


> Neuroplasticity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> I think our minds are much more elastic than people think. Our minds aren't Humpty Dumpty. We're resilient and we can adapt to our situations much better than presumed. There have been times in my life when people treated me like glass, but I didn't start the real recovery until I was shown that I'm made of hard rubber. I bounce back, grow and learn. My mind is not set in stone.


Exactly. Western psychiatry is too pedantic for it's own good. It is obsessed with labeling, categorizing and defining and when it's done with that, it says "well we understand this, and there is no known cure." ignoring the fact that the human brain, as with the rest of the body, are designed to repair themselves and restore balance on their own. But people now have labels that drive them further into the ground, preventing real change/growth to occur.

They say it's ten times harder to unlearn something than to learn something new, so when people truly believe that they'll never be able to look others in the eye or understand social cues or recognize emotion because some outdated form of psychology told them so, chances are they never will. But it's not because of anything intrinsic to their brain. 

Positive affirmation works quite well, from my experience. It's actually a form of neurological reprogramming. The brain (well the limbic system) can't differentiate "this" from "that". There is no sense of time or duality (this is actually why doing something kind for someone makes you feel good, your limbic system thinks you've received something nice xD), but it also can't tell the difference between positive and negative - so if someone says, "i'm autistic" over and over again, they will just hardwire their brain to find reasons to reinforce this. If you say the opposite "I'm not autistic" the limbic system can't tell the difference, so it's essentially the same thing because it must ignore negation.

So if you change it to something like "I CAN look people in the eye" over and over, your mind will begin to believe it, and you will start forming new pathways that make this easier and easier until it's just part of who you are. It's like digging a path through the snow. It takes time and perseverance, but eventually you'll get from a-b really quickly without wading through all the crap you thought was unavoidable.

We're blessed to have such wonderful bodies and brains, but so many people feel trapped/betrayed by them when in fact all that's happened is they've built themselves a prison, locked themselves in and forgotten that they've still got the key.


----------



## MilkyLatte

Number Six said:


> Exactly. Western psychiatry is too pedantic for it's own good. It is obsessed with labeling, categorizing and defining and when it's done with that, it says "well we understand this, and there is no known cure." ignoring the fact that the human brain, as with the rest of the body, are designed to repair themselves and restore balance on their own. But people now have labels that drive them further into the ground, preventing real change/growth to occur.
> 
> They say it's ten times harder to unlearn something than to learn something new, so when people truly believe that they'll never be able to look others in the eye or understand social cues or recognize emotion because some outdated form of psychology told them so, chances are they never will. But it's not because of anything intrinsic to their brain.
> 
> Positive affirmation works quite well, from my experience. It's actually a form of neurological reprogramming. The brain (well the limbic system) can't differentiate "this" from "that". There is no sense of time or duality (this is actually why doing something kind for someone makes you feel good, your limbic system thinks you've received something nice xD), but it also can't tell the difference between positive and negative - so if someone says, "i'm autistic" over and over again, they will just hardwire their brain to find reasons to reinforce this. If you say the opposite "I'm not autistic" the limbic system can't tell the difference, so it's essentially the same thing because it must ignore negation.
> 
> So if you change it to something like "I CAN look people in the eye" over and over, your mind will begin to believe it, and you will start forming new pathways that make this easier and easier until it's just part of who you are. It's like digging a path through the snow. It takes time and perseverance, but eventually you'll get from a-b really quickly without wading through all the crap you thought was unavoidable.
> 
> We're blessed to have such wonderful bodies and brains, but so many people feel trapped/betrayed by them when in fact all that's happened is they've built themselves a prison, locked themselves in and forgotten that they've still got the key.


So to actively deny something is the same as re-enforcing it? I can see how that would work.. But I find it hard to see how to break free of one's current wirings; even by changing something in one's life (like getting a new hobby, or a new positive mantra), wouldn't there still be room for the old, bad wirings, enough for them to have significance?


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## Number Six

MilkyLatte said:


> So to actively deny something is the same as re-enforcing it? I can see how that would work.. But I find it hard to see how to break free of one's current wirings; even by changing something in one's life (like getting a new hobby, or a new positive mantra), wouldn't there still be room for the old, bad wirings, enough for them to have significance?


Not with time.

Most habits and facets of a person's life are backed by emotional impetus, be it subconscious or conscious. For example, eating sugar feels good, so we eat sugar at the expense of our health. When our health becomes a major concern, it becomes difficult to give up sugar and this causes cognitive dissonance, but with time the benefits of not eating sugar lend emotional impetus to the state of abstinence, and the desire to eat it becomes less and less because we feel better without it.

The desire will still exist, but it will not dominate the mind and it will be nothing but a passing thought. Drug addicts for example must strive to remain clean for the rest of their life, but it's the change in mindset that allows them to do this without serious problem, even when the desire creeps up. So the significance wanes to the point that the thought passes as any other would, and after a while what would have been "mm sugar...MUST HAVE NOW, FEED ME, IT'LL BE GOOD, GO ON, WHY ARE YOU WASTING ENERGY JUST PICK IT UP, IT'S YUMMY, OMNOMNOMNOM." simply becomes "mm sugar.." and then gives way to "hmm, Shakespeare" or whatever. 

But yes, actively denying something is the exact same thing as focusing on it - you cannot deny something without giving energy to it, be it positive or negative. The only way to break this cycle is to change it to something that empowers you, something that benefits you. It's simply being conscious of the thoughts as they arise and not lending credence to them for the sake of satisfying an over active limbic system. T

This is a serious problem in society actually - over indulgence in sex, violence, food, drugs, vanity, wealth etc are so easily exploited because people will pay a lot of money to placate their desires rather than reprogram them to something less inhibiting. People are in a sense slaves to their own minds and there are those who are quite willing to manipulate this fact without scruples. For example, marketers (not to suggest that marketers are amoral monsters, but the industry itself is designed to feed off the basest aspects of our species)


----------



## MilkyLatte

Number Six said:


> Not with time.
> 
> Most habits and facets of a person's life are backed by emotional impetus, be it subconscious or conscious. For example, eating sugar feels good, so we eat sugar at the expense of our health. When our health becomes a major concern, it becomes difficult to give up sugar and this causes cognitive dissonance, but with time the benefits of not eating sugar lend emotional impetus to the state of abstinence, and the desire to eat it becomes less and less because we feel better without it.
> 
> The desire will still exist, but it will not dominate the mind and it will be nothing but a passing thought. Drug addicts for example must strive to remain clean for the rest of their life, but it's the change in mindset that allows them to do this without serious problem, even when the desire creeps up. So the significance wanes to the point that the thought passes as any other would, and after a while what would have been "mm sugar...MUST HAVE NOW, FEED ME, IT'LL BE GOOD, GO ON, WHY ARE YOU WASTING ENERGY JUST PICK IT UP, IT'S YUMMY, OMNOMNOMNOM." simply becomes "mm sugar.." and then gives way to "hmm, Shakespeare" or whatever.
> 
> But yes, actively denying something is the exact same thing as focusing on it - you cannot deny something without giving energy to it, be it positive or negative. The only way to break this cycle is to change it to something that empowers you, something that benefits you. It's simply being conscious of the thoughts as they arise and not lending credence to them for the sake of satisfying an over active limbic system. T
> 
> This is a serious problem in society actually - over indulgence in sex, violence, food, drugs, vanity, wealth etc are so easily exploited because people will pay a lot of money to placate their desires rather than reprogram them to something less inhibiting. People are in a sense slaves to their own minds and there are those who are quite willing to manipulate this fact without scruples. For example, marketers (not to suggest that marketers are amoral monsters, but the industry itself is designed to feed off the basest aspects of our species)


If habits and facets are driven by emotional impetus, wouldn't that mean that people, like myself, who are struck by intense negative emotions all the time, are doomed to a life of negative thinking? If I can't control my emotions, I can't control my mind..

I often wonder what's wrong with society, since people have to find so many unhealthy ways of boosting their happiness/dopamine levels. Let's face it, people would indulge in unhealthy habits even without media influence; there are so many people who turn to illegal drugs, which definitely aren't marketed via mainstream media. Sometimes I think we've pushed ourselves too hard through evolution, taken on more than we could handle..


----------



## Number Six

MilkyLatte said:


> If habits and facets are driven by emotional impetus, wouldn't that mean that people, like myself, who are struck by intense negative emotions all the time, are doomed to a life of negative thinking? If I can't control my emotions, I can't control my mind..


It's a misconception. Control, that is.

Nobody really has control over anything except how they view things. It's an illusion. Chaos in disguise, except it's not really chaos either. It's kind of both. What you have "control" over is your perception. How you perceive things to be. How you deal with things. If something negative happens, you can 1. wallow and indulge in the negativity 2. ignore/suppress and ultimately reroute yourself back to 1. eventually or 3. understand it, explore it, dive into bracingly and find out where it comes from so that you can transcend it and leave it behind like a suit you've outgrown.

The 3. is the most difficult for most people at first because western society in particular revolves around 2. and has an over abundance of 1. because we view 3. with disdain. A lot of people are very emotional immature because our world is designed to build the rational mind, the analyzing systematic hemisphere instead of the intuitive right side. People exist in the world of logic, identifying themselves as nothing but the ego, the self, instead of viewing the ego as something that can be explored and integrated for greater holistic benefit. With patience and practice, 3. becomes much easier but I think for many people, myself included, it's like anything - you need to learn to crawl before you can walk and run and somersault.

In a sense, intense negative emotion all the time is actually a wonderful opportunity! It's a chance to truly unearth some deep rooted issues within your subconscious and drag them to the surface for scrutiny. A bit of self actualization. Figure out why you think the way you think and whether it's still in your best interest to think that way or not.

The one fact of nature is that nothing is constant. No one is "doomed" unless they believe themselves to be. Transience is the nature of reality; I believe the trick to a fulfilling life is using the bad to contrast the good, so that you experience greater highs but without worrying about the lows, because eventually you'll see that you literally cannot have one without the other. In a sense the lows become as integral to happiness as the high.



> I often wonder what's wrong with society, since people have to find so many unhealthy ways of boosting their happiness/dopamine levels. Let's face it, people would indulge in unhealthy habits even without media influence; there are so many people who turn to illegal drugs, which definitely aren't marketed via mainstream media. Sometimes I think we've pushed ourselves too hard through evolution, taken on more than we could handle..


It's just ignorance, I think. I was a drug addict with full awareness of what I was doing to myself but I was bored and really didn't give a shit about anything except gratifying my own desire. Freud said that the Id, the instinctive self craves nothing more than instant gratification, but that it must be tamed by the ego in order to integrate itself with others or the world would be a savage place. I think the world is a savage place in disguise sometimes because ego runs rampant trying to give the Id everything it wants without considering the consequence, and over the centuries (particularly the last) this has manifested as obsessive materialism and two dimensional thinking because the ego only exists in contrast to itself (that of those around it) who are all doing the same thing - trying to shut the monkey up without actually educating it/ourselves and growing as individuals - thus as a society.

We're like teen parents looking after the anti social kid that is our mind.






We need to learn a bit of self compassion. Have a bit of patience with ourselves. We think we're so clever, but we're really quite young.

I definitely think you're right about technology though. Day of the Tryffids (think that's how it's spelt) is a good example of this...if society ended tonight...most people would die because they simply don't know how to look after themselves. They think they're way smarter than their ancestors, and yet if we were forced to revert back to our ancestral times over night, most people would starve to death, die of cold or end up killing each other via mobs because they really aren't any smarter, and thinking otherwise only encourages further ignorance while their lives are lived for them via a TV screen.

It's an interesting fact. The human brain can't differentiate between TV and sensual reality. In a sense people are more exposed to violence, trauma, sexual misconduct and all forms of spiritual abuse now, in every day life, even in their own living room, than they have been at any other point in recorded history. And we consider ourselves civilized. Evolved.

The irony of life could drive someone mad.


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## LunacyxFringe

I feel like I'm interrupting a discussion. Sorry! 

I just wanted to say I love this thread. There's a huge possibility that one of my sisters as Aspergers. At an early-age someone suggested she was Autistic but that idea was proven wrong as well as ADHD/ADD and Bi-Polar. Even though a psychologist confirmed that none of these things were the issue she found out something else about her. My mom never revealed the final result of my sister's analysis. Maybe she has it too, and maybe she just didn't think it was a big deal since it can be easily hidden or unrecognizable. But there was something off about her. She would throw tantrums no matter where she was if someone was chewing with her mouth opened. It could be a complete stranger sitting by themselves at the food court of a mall and she'd flip a switch. She didn't care about seeing food, it was the sound of chewing that drove her crazy. She also had a lot of other crazy characteristics about her like being socially inept and other things I don't really feel like getting into. It is all making sense to me now.

I'm finally realizing that she probably has it and I'm starting to feel bad. I've always been extremely distant with her because her lack of consideration towards me. She's extremely obnoxious and prefers isolation for long periods of time. At a point in my life I snapped at her and we just stop being sisters. She drove me crazy and because of how isolated she is she never cared to really discuss what happened or allow an opportunity for me to, and before she moved to a different state she's became anxious and weird whenever I'm in the same room as her. I don't blame her. I'm really happy I learned perspective from the people on here who've mentioned they had it and how it made them feel growing up and how it effects their lives... I think she's a tough person who had no choice but to learn how to grow a thick skin. It's obvious that my sister has insecurities and gets anxious but because of awful people like me she had to be strong and accept who she was to live comfortably..and even with that it's still a struggle because of people like me. 

You guys have really helped me out and I don't think any of you care. Most of you probably will ignore this and scroll past , and that's ok. I am a big time feeler. I wouldn't feel right for not openly admitting that I appreciate every single person who shed light on this subject. And I apologize if I annoy the people who did read this and rolled their eyes at the possibility that I could be wrong and think everything I wrote was unnecessary.


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## night_owl

I don't know anyone who has aspergers or any other disorder (I myself have a few traits but not enough to actually get a diagnosis of aspergers.), but I would have to actually interact with someone that has Aspergers in order to truly know what would and wouldn't piss me off. Actually, If I was aware that someone had a disorder and what the person did was not at all unintentional, I would always forgive them and never take it personally, no matter what. I may be annoyed at first, but that would quickly subside. It's just how I am. If I had a disorder, I would want people to forgive me for unintentional mistakes as well. In this case I could say "I'd do it for you, so you better do it for me". I'm actually a bit of a narcissist sometimes, and when it comes to stuff like this I have a high sense of entitlement, but why shouldn't I? It's called extending the courtesy. Others may disagree with this, but I don't care. 
But yeah, for me, a main factor that would determine how I would treat someone and react to someone's behavior is weather or not they are doing it intentionally or unintentionally. If someone was intentionally being mean and rude to me, I'd take action, but if I knew it was unintentional nothing more than a sincere apology would ever be needed for me to forgive and forget.


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## Permeate

Adding more to the topic of neuroplasticity-

Want Perfect Pitch? You Might Be Able To Pop A Pill For That : NPR

I found this study a couple months ago while I was taking Depakote. Very interesting stuff. I'm not taking it anymore because it made me feel like a zombie, but the fact that it could restore childhood brain plasticity is amazing.


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## oso

clelius said:


> Diagnosed with Asperger's here.
> 
> I was told I am opinionated and that I love to argue a lot.
> A friend told me that I state my opinions in the wrong ways, because I tend to be too forceful when I do.
> I am also told on a daily basis that I often look angry or hostile while talking to others or answering theit questions, and I get the "stay calm!" sentence a lot.
> I don't actually am angry or hostile towards people.
> My mother says that my voice switches to an angry tone a lot, but I don't do that intentionally, and I don't express anger with it. That's just my tone.


I'm an aspie too and I used to get this all of the time, which I found really frustrating. People used to tell me to calm down when I was calm. 
I think I just purposefully became generally more unresponsive just to stop them from doing it.
I have also been told that I never smile at some points in my life. When I do (from my own observations), it is goofy and lopsided.

Also, I'm pretty sure that one half of my body is much more sensitive than the other half, which has resulted in my using the muscles in one half of my face more hence it being more toned in muscle structure.


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## oso

Anyway, I don't seem to annoy people. People seem to like me and usually tell me that I'm nice.

I have always been quite a quiet person though. Never overbearing or boisterous. My social grace is also ok to an extent, unless my brain is tired and I become really unfocussed.


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## Snakecharmer

Stendhal said:


> As an Aspie myself, I have to say this threads characterization of us is still better than the patronizing stereotypes normally presented by our culture.


I think this is why I wasn't identified as an Aspie until I was 43 years old (last year)! Well, that, and they didn't start diagnosing people with it until the late 1980s (I was in college by then). 

I just thought I was quirky, socially awkward, and geeky. Last year, a co-worker who has a masters in behavioral analysis (and specialized in ASD) asked me if I'd ever been tested. I said, "Tested for WHAT?" Apparently, after observing me at work for several months, she noticed it in me...and told me I have mild ASD.

Go figure.

Anyway, my point is that I didn't fully understand ASD (heck, I still don't) and never ever would have thought I was an Aspie because I don't fit the stereotypes you hear about most often.

Plus, I'm female, and I think I adapted pretty well and managed to fit in somewhat. :/


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## reveur

An Aspie can be a jerk - just as a neurotypical person. And then this is a reason to be pissed off, sure. 

What irritates me the most are people who are trying to force the others to behave appropriately, like someone else's actions are only about _*them*_, made to offend _*them*_ etc, to embarass _*them*_ etc. 

When we're at it - I'm really sorry that people can be so insensitive towards the others on the spectrum. It's like it's easier to assume that something is intentional, than to ask about the reason, or to just simply observe the reason... and then we all have to deal with problems like "quiet hands" and similar stuff... 

_They say_ that people from the spectrum have no empathy. I wonder where's an empathy in calling someone weird, like being different would be a crime against the society.


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## Eiffel6174

As a 58 year old Aspie, I have learned that it is much more important to be kind than to be honest. Can I always put this into practice? Absolutely not but I work on it every day.
It hurts when non-Aspie people I love cannot be honest about their (rare) social mistakes. I make so many social mistakes that I am an expert at admitting it and apologizing. When they won't admit to a mistake it feels unfair. I do not criticize friends for mistakes so it feels like they don't trust me, I feel hurt and may say angry things. This was part of a recent problem with my best friend - she doesn't want to talk to me.
So, love and kindness and ignoring others mistakes works better than honesty sometimes.


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## Felipe

natashasghost said:


> I just want to know, and *I'm brutally honest and don't mind brutal honesty back*.


You answered your own question

edit: and the post in from 2011...fuck


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## perpetuallyreticent

It's crazy that this post got resurrected because my boyfriend and I just yesterday told this guy who we just found out had Aspergers that he couldn't crash with us at our one bedroom, one bath and super small apartment anymore. He had gotten kicked out of his home where he lived with his parents and other adult siblings because his dad found out he was dating a black woman. Pretty shitty of his family, we both thought, so we let him crash with us for like 2 weeks. 

I didn't personally have a problem with him, but I hadn't known he had Aspergers so a lot of the stuff he did really pissed me off at first. It's realistically his parents fault though for not properly addressing his Asperges. He clearly wasn't prepared for an adult life at all...

He's 25, got a minimum wage temp job with no real experience living by himself or without help.

He only had to pay us like 50 bucks for the two weeks, plus a little gas. We thought that was really fair. But yeah, about his Aspergers... 

He loudly talked to himself a lot. It did bother me a little until now, but what bothered me more was my boyfriend trying to ask him to stop and tell him he can just talk to us, not himself. (My boyfriend is really emotionally inept and overbearing... But the way he approached it was pretty rude now that we know what he's living with.

Another thing was this guy knew we were low on food, were low on money and I still made enough food for him to eat some. Once he'd finished he got up and got the rest of the food without asking, until he sat down with it on his plate and said, "I hope it's OK I got the rest."

It kind of pissed me off, because regardless of what he has going on, his parents should have let him be aware if typical manners in someone else's home. But my point is, you're right in stating that it's not fair to act like what someone with Aspergers does is something they can help and do anyways just to piss others off. I know they can't help it. Me and my boyfriend felt really bad once my boyfriend had a long talk with him about having to be an adult and be responsible for yourself (this is just his situation, not applying to everyone with Aspergers.) and the dude broke down crying and opened up to my boyfriend about how it's really hard for him sometimes, just in general.

Makes me want to strangle his parents. They were responsible for helping prepare their child with the tools he needed to be successful and a functioning adult, but he's unable to because they didn't address what he was going through.

Really fucking shitty.

Sent from my 5054N using Tapatalk


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## Lunaena

My closest friend is one. I think she is a bit milder than the guy I went to school with.

My closest friend is one of the only people who has ever understood me. Ever.

I went to school with another more "intense" one when I was 13-15 years old. He said some very mean things to me, and it hurt me. But he also lent me his book about vampires, which made me like him more. And we talked alot about logic versus feelings and subjectivity versus objectivity.

Some years later we met again on the bus, and we had some interesting conversations about some books we had read.

We follow each other on Instagram now, but we haven't seen each other since school years ago.


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## soop

Its just the ones that use their condition as an excuse to be an asshole that I have a problem with.


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## TTIOTBSAL

Eiffel6174 said:


> As a 58 year old Aspie, I have learned that it is much more important to be kind than to be honest. Can I always put this into practice? Absolutely not but I work on it every day.
> It hurts when non-Aspie people I love cannot be honest about their (rare) social mistakes. I make so many social mistakes that I am an expert at admitting it and apologizing. When they won't admit to a mistake it feels unfair. I do not criticize friends for mistakes so it feels like they don't trust me, I feel hurt and may say angry things. This was part of a recent problem with my best friend - she doesn't want to talk to me.
> So, love and kindness and ignoring others mistakes works better than honesty sometimes.


I can relate to that, unfortunately. It feels like a waste of time on daily basis, and missing what matters. Not diagnosed as aspie anymore, but was (?), still it feels like focusing on uninteresting fake politeness (people not hurt just fussing), when other things could be addressed and improved. I am totally willing to apologize if I hurt someone, but the older I grow the more it looks and feels like conventional manipulation. Your post didn't imply that yet the roots of it instinctively projected that picture for me.


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## sweetraglansweater

Asspie sounds like a made up thing...like ADHD being a label they stick on "hyperactive" little boys or how all obese people have thyroid issues, etc etc. While there might be a leetle truth in that I think it's hogwash. At the end of the day you have to work hard --just like the rest of us-- to be likable, socially accepted and not a turd.

I could find a bunch of labels (medical) to justify my behavior but at the end of the day if you are stepping on someone's toes you are stepping on someone's toes.


Interestingly enough, I know kids who have Down's Syndrome who were trained by their parents to be polite and even charming. If a person who as the permanent mentality of a 5 year old can say please, thank you and even show social awareness then Aspies have no excuse.


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## TTIOTBSAL

Of course people who have issues can be "trained", like dogs, just that shows the respect there is. Difficulties are real to fit (the slow, uninteresting "average", perspective), whatever the bird names given. POV varies. Galileo was still right. Pushing it but it needs that so many times to be just generally understood. Meaning nothing is a fake issue, just names given to "conditions". If slight (just slight) differences were tolerated by the "average" (but it is way more than.. IRL), the dsm wtf would be thinner.


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## Energumen

I have a "pinch" of Asperger's, but I'm by no means blunt. I usually try to sugar-coat my words. However, I'll sometimes be caught off-guard and be told that what I said was upsetting or embarrassing.

I think that most people don't mind people with autism spectrum disorders, unless they are unapologetic when they say potentially harmful things and are made aware of it.


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## Doccium

As someone with Asperger's myself I've got an assumption about this issue and I think it would help those who have never met someone with AS if I wrote down how I feel about having it.

Throughout my life - even before I got my diagnosis at age seven - I've been told that almost everything I do, the way I do it, the way I see and experience things, the way I think and feel is mostly wrong - "do this", "don't do that!", "just fit in" "you're just trying to find excuses!", etc. . Of course - there were people who encouraged me, who really believed I was worth something. But it's impossible to be accepted by everyone. After we got to know what I suffered from my mother tried to help me whilst getting me a school supporter: A woman who would look after me and help me to socialize. You see: My mother was and still is a very lovely person, she wanted to help me. But, oh boy - she could never have imagined what she just had done. 

My school supporter was and still is one of the worst people I've ever met. While she seemed to be nice around the teachers and my classmates we just were way too different. In school I drew almost all the time because of too much sensory stimuli - an issue many people with autism suffer from which is well known. Adding to that, I suffer from HSP. That means not only do I experience certain stumli way more intense, no - my brain also does not filter them. I was and still am stressed and overwhelmed quite easily so I had to calm down myself. Drawing helps me coping with all of this. 

But she always wanted me to stop, making me get aggressive because school was simply overwhelming me, it caused a lot of pain. I learned more and more to behave in an acceptable manner - because of her. I wanted to be different than this woman - that's why I am probably one of the most tolerating and understanding people out there. If someone's behavious does not harm anyone (including themselves) it is fine to me and I always strive to understand why people are acting the way they are acting or why they feel the way they feel. Whenever I got angry or sad or I laughed about something she said it was wrong because she herself didn't think so. To make it a bit more clear: I have been harassed by some students for quite a while (e.g. they laughed at me when I said something, they bombarded me with paper balls, they fooled me around because I had troubles to socialize) and she simply told me to "endure it for the last years". Mentionable is also that once she told me this:"You can't expect society to change for you - you have to change for it!" As I said earlier: I may try to be tolerating but just if someone's opinion does not hurt anyone else. 

Something else that has happened during my time with her:
We were at a fair with my class and she told me about a disabled girl she took care of. The girl sat in a wheelchair and was mentally disabled but she said she was pretty nice and cute. My school supporter said that she sometimes took the girl outside and that she thought it was awesome to see her leaving her "own little world". Well, the issue is that I asked her why it was so bad for this girl to see things different from everyone else's perception of the world. I mean - it did not hurt her, did it? And what makes this woman think that only the way she sees reality is the right one? Long story short, she simply ignored what I said and insisted on that she was right.

Back then I have started to consider other people's feelings, I taught my self to be extremely polite and my compassion grew to an unhealthy point which is why today sad/cruel stories can cause physical pain and make me feel extremely stressed so I have to stim in order to deal with it. I can't bear it if someone I love is mad or in a bad emotional state in general - most of the time I think it has to do with me, that I may have done something they did not like and oftentimes I withdraw if that happens. She even tried to make me like things she liked even though they clearly weren't my cup of tea. She did not believe me when I was having troubles with math, stating that I just wanted her to do all the work for me and indirectly telling me that she thought I just wanted attention. She claimed to know me "better than I thought" which is one of the worst things you can do *ever* - no one knows you better than yourself but she - after everything she had done - thought she had the right to say it. Gladly, she is gone now.

Have you ever thought about how hard it can be to make friends if you're having problems reading social cues? Well, in elementary school and the first years of highschool I did not. I was a completely different kind of person in primary school: Always running around, trying to find friends, very carefree. Most of it changed when I came to highschool. I became quieter and as if they dogs they were able to smeel my anxiety - a few students started to harass me. It bothered me alot, especially because they were rude in general: They insulted other kids, they were disrespectful, they pranked others and hurt their feelings - they did things I've been told not to do, things I would never have thought about doing anyway. It had a huge impact of me to see them doing that - I realized that treating others badly would only make them dislike me. 

When I was eleven I found two friends - shy girls, very nice and creative. We have spent very much time together at school, I tried to help them whenever they needed it, I encouraged them whilst saying:"You can do it! You're pretty good!" I distracted one of them from her sorrow because her dog had died whilst making her interest in writing stories and drawing grow - she gladly started and we had a common topic to talk about. The other girl just had moved from Canada to Germany and she had issues with the language and finding friends - she had always been alone. So I decided to approach her and inviting her to me and my other friend's meetings in the breaks.
However, eveything changed when they started to mainly talk to each other and leaving me alone. It all became worse and worse but I didn't know what to do about it. I thought it was just some kind of phase. But I was wrong. One day they completely stopped to talk to me. I was confused. Why did they do that? I thougt it was my fault and to be honest, I still think I was. That's when my health condition started to worsen: Everytime I saw them, when I thought about them, my throat began to hurt, I had intense headaches, my stomach hurt and sometimes even my heart cramped hurtful. I believed my heart had literally been broken by someone. I had other people I cared, yes, but you can't replace_ best friends_. And I also lost contact with the only ther person I have ever called a true friend of mine - not because of a fight but because we never had time for each other. We live too far away from the other one.

Why did I tell you all of this? Well, the things is that I haven't just met one of this kind of people - there are many of them. People who tell you that the way you see everything and how you feel is completely wrong, people who only use you, who leave you without a "goodbye" after they have grown tired of you, people who think that inclusion means that someone who is different in some way has to change completely in order to function, in order to fit into society while not realizing that they are destroying someone's whole identity in the process of doing so. Nowadays I am even more scared of what to do in social situations because of people like her. I may be well aware of my own perception of right and wrong, of the fact that sometimes I can be blunt - but on the other hand I can't even tell anymore what I am feeling. I just feel wrong, like a mistake - because that's what I've been told almost my whole life - that I'm like a parasite of society's body that needs to be extinguished. I'm not going deeper into this but to sum it up:

_*Some people with Aspeger's may behave in an impolite manner because they don't know anymore what is good or bad.

Others maybe have grown tired of trying to please everyone while they themselves have to suffer.*_

As stated before, many did not have encouraging parents or friends. Many do not even have friends at all for a long time.


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## Grandmaster Yoda

I haven't found a real person with aspergers who promotes this brutally honest mindset. I find myself apologizing about my own social awkwardness, probably to an annoying degree when I feel like I've done something wrong. Everyone has been annoyingly apologetic. Also, stupid don't forget stupid. I mean, they get angry and tell people to shut up and yell to make it stop sure. My brother is a piece of trash.
But anyway, no one. I have found no one who says, "I'm brutally honest and I promote that." People with autism are reclusive, scared and oblivious if they aren't the last two.
If somebody says they are brutally honest due to having aspergers, they are probably a fraud.
Aspergers is nothing to be proud of, I am sickened by these people who think it is a great thing. Furthermore, people who call it fake, you are part of the problem. Period. Seriously, punch yourself in the face. Misconceptions and poor treatment, not good. You are absorbed in the same myths as the frauds.


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## angelfish

Doccium said:


> Throughout my life - even before I got my diagnosis at age seven - I've been told that almost everything I do, the way I do it, the way I see and experience things, the way I think and feel is mostly wrong - "do this", "don't do that!", "just fit in" "you're just trying to find excuses!", etc. . Of course - there were people who encouraged me, who really believed I was worth something. But it's impossible to be accepted by everyone.


My SO who has Asperger's has expressed this as well. Of course to some extent we all experience this, and I think he had particularly authoritarian parents, but I am sure it has to be particularly potent when your baseline perspective is substantially different than average. 

I think education and awareness are hugely important, especially _positive and fair_ education and awareness. Some awareness organizations out there (cough - Autism Speaks - cough) really suck (the aforementioned has spoken of autism a "disease"). Others, thankfully, are fantastic.



Grandmaster Yoda said:


> Aspergers is nothing to be proud of, I am sickened by these people who think it is a great thing.


I obviously can't speak from the standpoint of having it, but from the outside, I highly value many autistic traits. I hate that those with it have to deal with more challenges, and more ignorance. But I have a medical systemic deficiency that I can say easily I would rather no one have, while I can't say the same for Asperger's. Overall I think the people I meet with Asperger's are typically more genuine people. More straightforward. More honest. More logical. More devoted, more conscientious, more fully themselves, less blended with societal expectations and social mores. And these positive qualities develop in part because of the way autism impacts their perception and judgment. 

And so of course I haven't been an insider and can't say that it's "worth" having. But personally I have been a shy, awkward, introverted kid - still am a shy, awkward, introverted adult a lot of the time - and I'm not on the spectrum... so it's not like not being on the spectrum would necessarily save you from that experience. I _can_ say that I think that it's not fundamentally detrimental, at least not in its Asperger's manifestation (more difficult to judge of course when combined with additional impairments) - not where it _matters_, not in heart and character and spirit, and ability to live a fulfilling life. The detriment comes from greater society being ignorant and not understanding or accepting difference more readily. Not from Asperger's itself, which arguably simply lends another flavor to humanity - one that I think humanity stands to gain greatly for if it can overcome its xenophobic inclinations, and one that I am simply fond of, personally.


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## Grandmaster Yoda

angelfish said:


> My SO who has Asperger's has expressed this as well. Of course to some extent we all experience this, and I think he had particularly authoritarian parents, but I am sure it has to be particularly potent when your baseline perspective is substantially different than average.
> 
> I think education and awareness are hugely important, especially _positive and fair_ education and awareness. Some awareness organizations out there (cough - Autism Speaks - cough) really suck (the aforementioned has spoken of autism a "disease"). Others, thankfully, are fantastic.
> 
> 
> 
> I obviously can't speak from the standpoint of having it, but from the outside, I highly value many autistic traits. I hate that those with it have to deal with more challenges, and more ignorance. But I have a medical systemic deficiency that I can say easily I would rather no one have, while I can't say the same for Asperger's. Overall I think the people I meet with Asperger's are typically more genuine people. More straightforward. More honest. More logical. More devoted, more conscientious, more fully themselves, less blended with societal expectations and social mores. And these positive qualities develop in part because of the way autism impacts their perception and judgment.
> 
> And so of course I haven't been an insider and can't say that it's "worth" having. But personally I have been a shy, awkward, introverted kid - still am a shy, awkward, introverted adult a lot of the time - and I'm not on the spectrum... so it's not like not being on the spectrum would necessarily save you from that experience. I _can_ say that I think that it's not fundamentally detrimental, at least not in its Asperger's manifestation (more difficult to judge of course when combined with additional impairments) - not where it _matters_, not in heart and character and spirit, and ability to live a fulfilling life. The detriment comes from greater society being ignorant and not understanding or accepting difference more readily. Not from Asperger's itself, which arguably simply lends another flavor to humanity - one that I think humanity stands to gain greatly for if it can overcome its xenophobic inclinations, and one that I am simply fond of, personally.


I'm talking about this stuff.


> difficulty making friends of the same age, children with AS may feel more comfortable with adults or much younger children
> engages in one-sided, long-winded conversations, without noticing if the listener is still listening or trying to change the subject
> displays unusual nonverbal communication, such as lack of eye contact, few facial expressions, or awkward body postures and gestures
> does not empathize with or seems insensitive to others’ feelings and has a hard time “reading” other people or may have difficulty understanding humor
> doesn’t understand the give-and-take of conversation or engage in “small talk”
> seems egocentric or self-absorbed
> may speak in a voice that is monotone, rigid, jerky or unusually fast
> may be extremely literal or have difficulty understanding the nuances of language, despite having a good vocabulary


I don't know what you are talking about.
If no one helped me at all and recognized these things as problems, I would still be a mute to all of my friends and my life would be extremely limited, it still is.
I really don't want people to associate this with "accept everyone, it's a different way of life." Does any of this sound like someone just being unique? How do you blame society for this stuff?
I understand people are mistreated and hurt for having these differences, but instead of saying "Don't hurt them, accept them." I would say "don't hurt them, help them."
This isn't fun you know. I think it also lends itself to these weird concepts like brutal honesty. That has nothing to do with me.
Some people have faced their fears and live more comfortably. In that sense, it is not an identity. There is no cure all, but a lot of things like social anxiety can be fixed. Now you say, anyone could have social anxiety, true. But is it highly related to aspergers? Yes.
So strip me of all of the "problems" and what you have is a regular healthy person.
Maybe they are more honest, more genuine, etc. But autism, I don't know that just seems to be curving away from the focus. You don't see it as a problem because, I don't know really. It is defined as a problem. It is a diagnosis for a reason.
I would say shame on you for not recognizing what it is. Shame on you, right now.
None of the positive traits are universal either. I have really one friend in college right now. Should that be written off? Are limitations meant to be written off?
I just think it is backwards to focus on the good possibilites then identify that with aspergers. Aspergers is the bad stuff.
If I fixed all of my symptoms or managed them well, I would say my autism is managed and lessened. I would not take my eccentricities that remain and identify that with being autistic and autism is therefore good. No, I just got rid of the autism. Now, I'm me, I'm healthly rather. I don't agree with your opinion and think it will ruin everything, except for the part of society mistreating rather than helping people. Still, not accepting limitations as being different.
It's not really fair to say that to me at all. There have been long stretches of depression and negativity because of this. I see it as mean to say anything other than I, should be helped along.


----------



## angelfish

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> I'm talking about this stuff.
> 
> I don't know what you are talking about.
> If no one helped me at all and recognized these things as problems, I would still be a mute to all of my friends and my life would be extremely limited, it still is.
> I really don't want people to associate this with "accept everyone, it's a different way of life." Does any of this sound like someone just being unique? How do you blame society for this stuff?
> I understand people are mistreated and hurt for having these differences, but instead of saying "Don't hurt them, accept them." I would say "don't hurt them, help them."
> This isn't fun you know. I think it also lends itself to these weird concepts like brutal honesty. That has nothing to do with me.
> Some people have faced their fears and live more comfortably. In that sense, it is not an identity. There is no cure all, but a lot of things like social anxiety can be fixed. Now you say, anyone could have social anxiety, true. But is it highly related to aspergers? Yes.
> So strip me of all of the "problems" and what you have is a regular healthy person.
> Maybe they are more honest, more genuine, etc. But autism, I don't know that just seems to be curving away from the focus. You don't see it as a problem because, I don't know really. It is defined as a problem. It is a diagnosis for a reason.
> I would say shame on you for not recognizing what it is. Shame on you, right now.
> None of the positive traits are universal either. I have really one friend in college right now. Should that be written off? Are limitations meant to be written off?
> I just think it is backwards to focus on the good possibilites then identify that with aspergers. Aspergers is the bad stuff.
> If I fixed all of my symptoms or managed them well, I would say my autism is managed and lessened. I would not take my eccentricities that remain and identify that with being autistic and autism is therefore good. No, I just got rid of the autism. Now, I'm me, I'm healthly rather. I don't agree with your opinion and think it will ruin everything, except for the part of society mistreating rather than helping people. Still, not accepting limitations as being different.
> It's not really fair to say that to me at all. There have been long stretches of depression and negativity because of this. I see it as mean to say anything other than I, should be helped along.


Well, first of all, I'm sorry. My intention with my post was to be supportive. It seems like it came off as patronizing or silencing to you... it certainly wasn't meant to be, and I apologize to you for that. That said, I don't feel like I deserve to be "shamed" because I presented a different perspective.

My post was based on my personal understanding and experiences. It was not intended in any way to diminish or reject your voice, but rather to present another view. If you choose to see autism as 100% negative, that's completely up to you, and I certainly don't have any right to question your experience or perspective on something I have never experienced. At the same time, you can't decide that for everyone else as well. I don't say this because I want to see it in a rosy light; in many ways it would be easier if it were simply a disease that could be treated. I say this because I have spoken with people on the spectrum who feel that autism is woven into the fabric of who they are, and if it were "removed" somehow, it would remove who _they_ are.

They don't agree with this: 

_So strip me of all of the "problems" and what you have is a regular healthy person._

They believe that they are _already_ regular, healthy people, who process neurologically _differently_. If you disagree, that's completely your decision, and I don't judge you negatively for that, but I am not sure I agree, either. 



Grandmaster Yoda said:


> It is defined as a problem. It is a diagnosis for a reason.
> I would say shame on you for not recognizing what it is. Shame on you, right now.


I in no way seek to diminish the pain that being autistic may bring! Nor the difficulty of isolation, misunderstanding, miscommunication, or rigidity. Importantly, I never said having autism is _fun_, and erred if I somehow implied that I think the experience is overwhelmingly positive. I have gone through too many painful discussions with my SO to ever think that. However, I said I think there are _typically_ positives as well as negatives to having autism, which I continue to stand by. Whether or not those positives apply to you is personal. Perhaps they don't. Or perhaps they are positives that I see from the outside but that do not improve one's internal experience. My outside perspective is simply that people with Asperger's are often more decent people than those without in the realms that matter to me: in integrity, in sincerity, and in determination. I tend to think and hope those qualities lead to more fulfilling lives, but I don't believe they magically eradicate the difficulty or challenges, either.

Regarding diagnosis, I am fairly well-versed in what autism is in theory, though of course you're right that I can't know it internally. I certainly do not claim to know it "more" or "better" than you in any way. However, medically/clinically, it is termed "disorder", literally meaning "_apart [from the normal] order_", because it clearly is a divergence from how humans typically develop, but its classification is man-made, and not necessarily an accurate indicator of its underlying nature - so if someone calls it a "disease", that's really a subjective label, not an objective fact. To my understanding, there are still many, many questions surrounding the science of its origin, nature, development, and heredity. 

I definitely want to help make life easier for people with autism, but to my current understanding, increasing social awareness is the main avenue for that. If you don't believe that social awareness has an impact, then what do you feel like would help most instead? Research into origins and prevention?

Personally, I _do_ believe that in general, an autistic person's experience is impacted by the way society at large responds. Consider your list: 


* *





- Children are sometimes treated punitively by adults and peers alike for not socializing "normally" and being a part of the grade-level group. If there were more flexibility in who kids are encouraged to associate with, that would help take negative social pressure away. 

- Once others know that someone is more prone to long-winded conversation, it can help them adjust their conversational style accordingly, so they don't get frustrated or burnt out. They can also learn to be literal and clear when telling the autistic person that they would like to do something else, instead of giving the subtle and ambiguous nonverbal cues that are typically used to signal impatience and disinterest.

- Again, once others understand what is to be expected, they can adjust accordingly. If they don't expect eye contact, they will not misinterpret lack of eye contact. If they know that the person doesn't use much facial or tonal expression, they will understand to take meaning directly from what is verbalized. 

- If empathy is not expected, then the other will better understand to not expect mirroring, emotional expression, and so on. However, it seems that _sympathy_ is not always out of bounds, which can help bridge the gap. 

- A conscientious other can also help explain/interpret jokes. 

- Small talk can be avoided! I don't really know _anyone_ who loves small talk. 




While of course these adjustments won't solve every problem, I think they could help to improve life in general. 



Grandmaster Yoda said:


> I think it also lends itself to these weird concepts like brutal honesty.


It was not my intention to create/add to some kind of bizarre concept or buzzword. My words were "honest" and "genuine", fairly garden-variety characteristics. I was simply pointing out a handful of positives that I feel like I have observed through the course of my life. 



Grandmaster Yoda said:


> I don't agree with your opinion and think it will ruin everything, except for the part of society mistreating rather than helping people. Still, not accepting limitations as being different.
> It's not really fair to say that to me at all. There have been long stretches of depression and negativity because of this. I see it as mean to say anything other than I, should be helped along.


I think what you are seeing as passive is what I am seeing as helpful. By _accepting_ I don't mean just writing you off. I mean learning what autism is, including it in general social understanding, and adjusting our general social climate so that making reasonable accommodations for people with autism is just seen as good etiquette and becomes standard practice. 

FWIW, I talked for a while with my SO about all of this. He says he'd prefer to be without his sensory symptoms, but that he feels like some of the other aspects of autism, particularly his thinking characteristics, are a part of who he is and how his mind is. He pointed out that he felt pretty negative and isolated until maybe around 19-20 years old, when he started doing more experimentation and just opening himself up to trying and failing. He said he's definitely gotten help along the way (but he's also met some people who were assholes to him), and that his perspective has changed a lot in the ~8 years since then.


----------



## marblecloud95

The adult world wasn't built with Aspies in mind, and as long as treatments remain out of reach for them they'll always struggle to deal with the subtly and complexities that come along with living the life of a "normal" adult.


----------



## angelfish

marblecloud95 said:


> The adult world wasn't built with Aspies in mind, and as long as treatments remain out of reach for them they'll always struggle to deal with the subtly and complexities that come along with living the life of a "normal" adult.


Treatments?


----------



## marblecloud95

angelfish said:


> Treatments?


Psychiatric drugs, deep brain stimulation, psychedelic drugs etc..


----------



## ShadowsRunner

I almost seemed like I had asbergers when I was younger, but it was simply because I was so neglected and socially ostracized growing up that I had horrible social skills. 

Learning social skills can be really difficult and trying and even if you do not have a diagnosis to use an excuse or alibi to not care, it socializing can still be a nightmare.

It's really hard to say exactly what normal is when it comes to personality, temperament and how we like to socialize or not really.


----------



## ShadowsRunner

Of course one thing I had found difficult over the years is that generally I seem to not really be motivated by the same desires or in the same way quite often and to realize that most of the world hardly even takes things like "idealism" into the equation when making decisions was quite a difficult realization for me to come to terms with and even now I still somewhat struggle with, but mostly just in an emotional sense and for years took me a while for it not to hurt my self esteem too drastically or allow myself to feel too flawed over the fact. 

It really seemed to have been for years, the main cause of conflict or wedge between me and others. 

Not only that, but realizing that most social norms make hardly any logical sense and even from an emotional standpoint were not really that nonsensical to me. Sure, on some level I could understand but it was not always that obvious just how much things were decided in those manners. 

I think that often social world is run on ego, pride, vanity and impulsivity even. 

I don't think much of the world makes sense logically at all.


I find it ironic and strange though how there is still such a large emphasis on being or appearing "normal" and yet for all intensive purposes no one can really quite say what that is exactly or how to define what that means. I cannot relate to what goes for normalcy at all in society.


----------



## Goetterdaemmerung

Welp, time to try to live as a complete recluse...................



Or use alcohol.


----------



## Goetterdaemmerung

jadedtortoise said:


> These are people who require LOTS of patience and understanding. Once you get through the confusion you definitely understand that they are worth it.




Oh PLEASE, no we're not....


----------



## ShadowsRunner

I just want to point out that I was saying that all human beings are shallow or superficial, OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT AT ALL, HONESTLY.

But I was stating that yes, many of them are to certain degrees and it can be quite aggravating when you don't want to deal with all of the social pretense trivialities.

Honestly the bar is often set by certain standards and individuals that I cannot f-cking relate to whatsoever.


----------



## Grandmaster Yoda

angelfish said:


> Well, first of all, I'm sorry. My intention with my post was to be supportive. It seems like it came off as patronizing or silencing to you... it certainly wasn't meant to be, and I apologize to you for that. That said, I don't feel like I deserve to be "shamed" because I presented a different perspective.
> 
> My post was based on my personal understanding and experiences. It was not intended in any way to diminish or reject your voice, but rather to present another view. If you choose to see autism as 100% negative, that's completely up to you, and I certainly don't have any right to question your experience or perspective on something I have never experienced. At the same time, you can't decide that for everyone else as well. I don't say this because I want to see it in a rosy light; in many ways it would be easier if it were simply a disease that could be treated. I say this because I have spoken with people on the spectrum who feel that autism is woven into the fabric of who they are, and if it were "removed" somehow, it would remove who _they_ are.
> 
> They don't agree with this:
> 
> _So strip me of all of the "problems" and what you have is a regular healthy person._
> 
> They believe that they are _already_ regular, healthy people, who process neurologically _differently_. If you disagree, that's completely your decision, and I don't judge you negatively for that, but I am not sure I agree, either.
> 
> 
> 
> I in no way seek to diminish the pain that being autistic may bring! Nor the difficulty of isolation, misunderstanding, miscommunication, or rigidity. Importantly, I never said having autism is _fun_, and erred if I somehow implied that I think the experience is overwhelmingly positive. I have gone through too many painful discussions with my SO to ever think that. However, I said I think there are _typically_ positives as well as negatives to having autism, which I continue to stand by. Whether or not those positives apply to you is personal. Perhaps they don't. Or perhaps they are positives that I see from the outside but that do not improve one's internal experience. My outside perspective is simply that people with Asperger's are often more decent people than those without in the realms that matter to me: in integrity, in sincerity, and in determination. I tend to think and hope those qualities lead to more fulfilling lives, but I don't believe they magically eradicate the difficulty or challenges, either.
> 
> Regarding diagnosis, I am fairly well-versed in what autism is in theory, though of course you're right that I can't know it internally. I certainly do not claim to know it "more" or "better" than you in any way. However, medically/clinically, it is termed "disorder", literally meaning "_apart [from the normal] order_", because it clearly is a divergence from how humans typically develop, but its classification is man-made, and not necessarily an accurate indicator of its underlying nature - so if someone calls it a "disease", that's really a subjective label, not an objective fact. To my understanding, there are still many, many questions surrounding the science of its origin, nature, development, and heredity.
> 
> I definitely want to help make life easier for people with autism, but to my current understanding, increasing social awareness is the main avenue for that. If you don't believe that social awareness has an impact, then what do you feel like would help most instead? Research into origins and prevention?
> 
> Personally, I _do_ believe that in general, an autistic person's experience is impacted by the way society at large responds. Consider your list:
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Children are sometimes treated punitively by adults and peers alike for not socializing "normally" and being a part of the grade-level group. If there were more flexibility in who kids are encouraged to associate with, that would help take negative social pressure away.
> 
> - Once others know that someone is more prone to long-winded conversation, it can help them adjust their conversational style accordingly, so they don't get frustrated or burnt out. They can also learn to be literal and clear when telling the autistic person that they would like to do something else, instead of giving the subtle and ambiguous nonverbal cues that are typically used to signal impatience and disinterest.
> 
> - Again, once others understand what is to be expected, they can adjust accordingly. If they don't expect eye contact, they will not misinterpret lack of eye contact. If they know that the person doesn't use much facial or tonal expression, they will understand to take meaning directly from what is verbalized.
> 
> - If empathy is not expected, then the other will better understand to not expect mirroring, emotional expression, and so on. However, it seems that _sympathy_ is not always out of bounds, which can help bridge the gap.
> 
> - A conscientious other can also help explain/interpret jokes.
> 
> - Small talk can be avoided! I don't really know _anyone_ who loves small talk.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While of course these adjustments won't solve every problem, I think they could help to improve life in general.
> 
> 
> 
> It was not my intention to create/add to some kind of bizarre concept or buzzword. My words were "honest" and "genuine", fairly garden-variety characteristics. I was simply pointing out a handful of positives that I feel like I have observed through the course of my life.
> 
> 
> 
> I think what you are seeing as passive is what I am seeing as helpful. By _accepting_ I don't mean just writing you off. I mean learning what autism is, including it in general social understanding, and adjusting our general social climate so that making reasonable accommodations for people with autism is just seen as good etiquette and becomes standard practice.
> 
> FWIW, I talked for a while with my SO about all of this. He says he'd prefer to be without his sensory symptoms, but that he feels like some of the other aspects of autism, particularly his thinking characteristics, are a part of who he is and how his mind is. He pointed out that he felt pretty negative and isolated until maybe around 19-20 years old, when he started doing more experimentation and just opening himself up to trying and failing. He said he's definitely gotten help along the way (but he's also met some people who were assholes to him), and that his perspective has changed a lot in the ~8 years since then.


You need to give small talk a chance right now.
I dislike the picture you are painting. I am finished, I surrender.


----------



## angelfish

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> You need to give small talk a chance right now.
> I dislike the picture you are painting. I am finished, I surrender.


Ok, sorry I have bothered you so much. If you ever feel like telling me more about your perspective on how neurotypicals can help autistic people most effectively, I would welcome it.


----------



## Grandmaster Yoda

angelfish said:


> Ok, sorry I have bothered you so much. If you ever feel like telling me more about your perspective on how neurotypicals can help autistic people most effectively, I would welcome it.


My computer is acting out. It is using CHKDISK and it is actually deleting stuff.


----------



## CasualUsage

I worked very closely with a guy who had it. His family owned the company, the mom was the CEO. I saw the way his mom worked with him. She encouraged him a lot and gave him a lot of praise. She kept his task list FULL. It worked because she obviously knew a lot about it, and she was there every hour of every day and she was patient. She cared. Together, they knocked out a crazy, superhuman amount of work.

I read up on Aspergers when I found out he had it. It helped me.

I'm not sure exactly how you can arrange it so that you are around people who are familiar with Aspergers, all the time. You can't exactly put it on your resume. 

If people are familiar with Aspergers, and you know that they are familiar with it, it's safer to be yourself around them. If you don't know the person, it might be best to scale down your talkies with them. Just polite hello/goodbye stuff.

The guy I worked with - his empathy was so strong it almost got him put in jail a few times. In school, he was always standing up for kids who were getting bullied, a handicapped kid etc. He put a couple kids in the hospital because they bullied weak kids. He may have had more going on than Aspergers though...with the violence I mean.


----------



## angelfish

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> My computer is acting out. It is using CHKDISK and it is actually deleting stuff.


That is awful. I hope you can get it fixed soon.


----------



## marblecloud95

Gotterdammerung said:


> Welp, time to try to live as a complete recluse...................
> 
> 
> 
> Or use alcohol.


As mentioned before there are treatments available, not widely available but if you're pro-active about it you run a better chance than complaining here on the forum.


----------



## Riven

According to my doctor and school/uni staff, I have it. What I really hate about having it (if they're right) is that people don't seem to want to talk to me no matter how hard I try. I believe I'm pretty normal and my parents also believe this as well.

When trying to talk to people, I often end up with those that remind me of me, which I don't really like.


----------



## Goetterdaemmerung

marblecloud95 said:


> As mentioned before there are treatments available, not widely available but if you're pro-active about it you run a better chance than complaining here on the forum.




Eh, not really up here. But yeah, I'm managing it fine, people told me, thanks anyways though. It's just the bloody stigma that becomes too overwhelming and suffocating. So of course I'll bound to get a little _upset_.

But don't mind me. I'll survive...


----------



## Psychophant

Preponderance of robotic, tactless, unempathetic pricks.. especially prevalent in the darkest corners of the web.


----------



## shameless

My only straight up issue with people with aspergers has been when they find it pertinent to tell people they have aspergers in general socializing.

See me does not tend to actually address and acknowledge such info. I do not engage convo over it. Looks up scratches my head (gee thanks for the random tid bit). Ok moving on redirects topic back to the subject at hand. (Person cuts in to discuss it more because no one acknowledged this or gratified this in the middle of x and z.) 

Me still changes the subject again. But this person has managed to get commentary from at least one person who wants to pity and another who wants to dispute the existence of aspergers. Me ok so back to the fucking subject at hand. The aspergers person and the pc pitier are now challenging the person disputing the person arguing the existence of aspergers. Me really fucking annoyed can we get back on task.

So do I give a shit if someone has aspergers. No I literally do not care at all. I dont care if its real I dont care if its pretend I do not care who likes green eggs and ham I do not fucking care Sam I am. 

So whats my issue just people who force it as content and then fall back on it and then divert from whatever is relevant. 

You wouldnt hear me telling everyone in general content socially or for a work or class how I am an anti social bitch and keep inserting it in convo diverting from what ever the topic at hand is.

Fine if whoever has aspergers it just tends to be a social disease which often enables people with it to overly state to the rest of us. And then spirals into debates between pc people and counter pc people.


----------



## Goetterdaemmerung

Psychophantic said:


> Preponderance of robotic, tactless, unempathetic pricks.. especially prevalent in the darkest corners of the web.


Hmmm, something like that I guess.


----------



## Goetterdaemmerung

My best guess is that they would be using it as an excuse for their behavior.


Many can be quite secretive about it due to stigma. I guess it all depends on the person.


----------



## PumpkinSpice

Note: I may not have Asperger's, considering I have a few other "social disorders" and other possibly related problems, and I don't think much information was considered in my diagnosis and I don't actually know their reasoning for it so... yeah. 


I don't think people are pissed off, actually I am very well liked by a lot of people, but where I live people are friendly to nearly everyone so that doesn't say much maybe. I think people are mostly awkward talking to me though if anything... usually I have trouble connecting with just anyone, without some common interest. >w< I really dislike talking to most people, but I do try to be friendly.


----------



## Felix5

My good friend has asperger's syndrome and he's, for the most part, a sweet guy. There are times however, when I would like to smack him for the way he talks to people.

Example: The two of us are eating lunch at a nice restaurant. I get lasagna and he gets the burger. (It's an Italian restaurant....seriously?)

The waitress comes up and asks "how is everything?" 

Of course, I say great, thank you, etc....

When she comes back to get our plates, she looks at my friend and notices he hasn't touched his food (He doesn't really eat much anyway, so I didn't think much of it). 

She asks, "You didn't finish your burger, was there something wrong?" 

He goes, "I didn't like it, it was salty."

The look on her face made me truly embarrassed to be in the same room as him. She looked genuinely hurt. Being a waitress you experience some general customer rudeness, but there are certain customers that make your day horrible. My friend was one of them that day. This bothers me because I go out of my way to be polite and courteous to people working in retail/food service.

I know what it's like to work in customer service and with people. I understand that if you're at a restaurant, you chose to eat there and spend your money. You chose to order the burger that was too salty. Also your taste buds are not like everyone else. The way he said it to the waitress was just plain rude and I'm baffled as to how he didn't understand that. Finally, I paid for it! So suck it up and pretend to like it, you ungrateful turd. I love him, but omg!

It's little things like this, that I've noticed about my friend. He makes an effort and tries to work on his flaws, but sometimes he screws up. That's the only thing that makes it forgivable. He can appear a little strange in public too. We go to the art museum all the time and I like to read all information about the paintings. He cannot stand still for five seconds. It drives me crazy. He's always on his phone too and talks to Siri about everything. He looks like a crazy person walking around and talking to himself and to his phone. 

One of his favorite things to do, is to go to youth musical concerts. He used to be a pianist and wanted to be a concert pianist when he was young. So he goes to these shows, meets the parents and the kids as a way to support them. In theory, it's a kind hearted thing to do, but he sort of comes off as creepy to these young girls. He befriends them on facebook, sends them messages, etc..It's all concert related, but I could see why he would come off as a little bit scary to the young female musicians. He's harmless, kind, but very frustrating. His wife left him because she couldn't deal with the awkwardness anymore. He's lost several jobs througout his life because of this. To say that people with Asperger's are totally normal is just false. Their awkwardness has an effect on others and their own lives. We go about this all wrong today. We indulge these kids to think that they should be allowed to say and do anything they want. You have to teach these kids how to function in reality. Reality is not the cushy bubble suburban world your kids are growing up in. Reality is harsh, unforgiving, cruel, and lonely. I see this in my friend.

I'm sorry that you have asperger's, but that does not give you the right to be a bitch to everyone on this planet. It does not excuse rudeness and it doesn't make it ok. If you make a genuine effort to be polite to people and there are certain things you just don't understand, that's fine; but if you're not trying and you say things like, "I have asperger's and I'm just blunt," Well I'll tell you off in a New York minute. I'm doing this for your own good. 

I truly find it sad that some people with Asperger's syndrome think the rest of the world is jealous or that they're special. There's this entire movement to make Asperger's syndrome into this great thing because they're "so intelligent." In my experience, some are intelligent and some are just average. The ones that believe this nonsense tend to be unhealthy and have not been taught to deal with their disorder. Asperger's syndrome is a disorder, it is not a talent or skill to be proud of.

*This post is not directed at anyone in particular, just my general thoughts.


----------



## Librarylady

I have aspergers, but I'm not bothered by most of these comments. I view my condition as a negative, and it has set me back so far in life. I was able to improve on some of my symptoms through therapy and help, but It's always gonna be there. In real life, I never even bring up my condition anymore as I hate the label that much.

I'm also a feeler, when most people with AS are thought to be thinkers. And I get why, because even for a feeler, I can lack total cognitive empathy and be too blunt. But I have a ton of affectional empathy inside, and feel guilt easily for not saying the right thing. I have tried to sugarcoat words so I can fit in easier, and it just takes practice. I don't think people should use AS as an excuse to be rude. Actually, it infuriates me when people do terrible things and then use autism as an excuse, it makes the rest of us look like villains.


----------



## Handsome Dyke

Felix5 said:


> The way he said it to the waitress was just plain rude and I'm baffled as to how he didn't understand that. Finally, I paid for it! So suck it up and pretend to like it, you ungrateful turd.


She asked him a question and he answered it. How do you have a friend with Asperger's and have no idea about taking things literally? Also, you wanted him to lie _to the waitress_ because _you_ paid for the meal? How does that make any sense?



> It's little things like this, that I've noticed about my friend. He makes an effort and tries to work on his flaws, but sometimes he screws up. That's the only thing that makes it forgivable. He can appear a little strange in public too. We go to the art museum all the time and I like to read all information about the paintings. He cannot stand still for five seconds. It drives me crazy. He's always on his phone too and talks to Siri about everything. He looks like a crazy person walking around and talking to himself and to his phone.


Does this have anything to do with Asperger's Syndrome?



> I'm sorry that you have asperger's, but that does not give you the right to be a bitch to everyone on this planet. It does not excuse rudeness and it doesn't make it ok. If you make a genuine effort to be polite to people and there are certain things you just don't understand, that's fine; but if you're not trying and you say things like, "I have asperger's and I'm just blunt," Well I'll tell you off in a New York minute. I'm doing this for your own good.


You seem like a terrible friend.


----------



## dulcinea

Librarylady said:


> I have aspergers, but I'm not bothered by most of these comments. I view my condition as a negative, and it has set me back so far in life. I was able to improve on some of my symptoms through therapy and help, but It's always gonna be there. In real life, I never even bring up my condition anymore as I hate the label that much.
> 
> I'm also a feeler, when most people with AS are thought to be thinkers. And I get why, because even for a feeler, I can lack total cognitive empathy and be too blunt. But I have a ton of affectional empathy inside, and feel guilt easily for not saying the right thing. I have tried to sugarcoat words so I can fit in easier, and it just takes practice. I don't think people should use AS as an excuse to be rude. Actually, it infuriates me when people do terrible things and then use autism as an excuse, it makes the rest of us look like villains.


I agree, but it equally infuriates me when judgmental neurotypicals accuse people with Autism/Asperger's of merely making excuses for not following their hyper-strict social rules, and think it's okay to bash them for that reason.


----------



## Ghostcolors

Librarylady said:


> I have aspergers, but I'm not bothered by most of these comments. I view my condition as a negative, and it has set me back so far in life. I was able to improve on some of my symptoms through therapy and help, but It's always gonna be there. In real life, I never even bring up my condition anymore as I hate the label that much.
> 
> I'm also a feeler, when most people with AS are thought to be thinkers. And I get why, because even for a feeler, I can lack total cognitive empathy and be too blunt. But I have a ton of affectional empathy inside, and feel guilt easily for not saying the right thing. I have tried to sugarcoat words so I can fit in easier, and it just takes practice. I don't think people should use AS as an excuse to be rude. Actually, it infuriates me when people do terrible things and then use autism as an excuse, it makes the rest of us look like villains.


Those who have Aspergers have been some of the most honest and genuine people I've met. They told things how they were and how they saw them. No sugar coating or beating around the bush. To me, this was a breath of fresh air. A person with a weak backbone may take offense or not no how to handle such blunt honesty, but to me, it's as authentic as it gets.


----------



## PiT

It annoys me personally because I have had people I know attribute my own social difficulties to Asperger's when the truth is nothing of the sort. The fact that it is difficult for most people to distinguish a neurotypical INTJ from someone with Asperger's does not help in this regard. The tendency in popular culture to conflate knowledge of math and science with Asperger's and Autism makes it even worse. It got to the point where any mention of _The Big Bang Theory_ made me wince. When people I knew compared me to characters on the show for no other reason than I liked talking about complex theoretical concepts, I took the step that I normally never take and voiced my displeasure in how I was being addressed.


----------



## Fumetsu

I've had experience with only one. In HS. In the " special class" where I so did not belong.

Anyway this was this him: 

-about 350 lbs, wore ratty, T-shirts full of holes which did not cover his bully that drooped and swung like a Gnip Gnop. Unbrushed, dishevled hair, stubbly-with food in it-dirty sweat pants-smelled like hell because he refused to bathe.
-Superior attitude, self proclaimed " genious". During reading time he would quickly run his finger down the page. When the teacher called him out he'd say " I am reading! Actually, that's me reading at half-speed.
- besides the above he made many outrageous claims ( like he infented the question mark. Sometimes he wouldccuse chestnutts of being lazy ... heh, I keed) like that he was born with blue hair. He would blurt out horribly innapropriate things. He heard the gang bangers talking about " trains" ( not the Amtrak kind) and blurted out " I've been in a train before! Lot's if times!"
- He would write hentai and try to get all the girls in class to read it. When we said no he would throw a fit and call us whores and bitches.

That was just the obnoxious stuff. What should have gotten him removed from public school:

-He would ask out every girl who entered the class. When they turned him down he would threaten to rape and murder them. The teachers would laugh and say " Oh you!"
- He would continue to sexually harrass-and occasional assault-all of the girls in class.
-He would throw temper tantrums a lot, sometimes they included throwing chairs at female students and teachers.

I get that it's a mental illness that can't be helped -though to what extent? I don't believe they even tried. I think in his case they just said " Ah use the " disability" excuse and no one will be able to touch him."- but ya know when they put others in danger I don't get a shit. Get them out if the public.



Ghostcolors said:


> Those who have Aspergers have been some of the most honest and genuine people I've met. They told things how they were and how they saw them. No sugar coating or beating around the bush. To me, this was a breath of fresh air. A person with a weak backbone may take offense or not no how to handle such blunt honesty, but to me, it's as authentic as it gets.


I've been accused of being honest like that-I just got in trouble for it because I didn't have the Autism hand-stamp.

I mean yes, I was not well socialised because I spent most of my childhood in a research center and the rest with abusive parents would not let me interact with the outside world. Whn I did go to out in public everyone treated me like garbage so I just learned that socialising was dangerous. 
Even though it was a rational response to my environment it was not the correct or popular colored badge so it was not an excuse. I was just a bad kid.

I guess that is why I have an issue with most mental well, issues. If you have the proper label you're immune. If you have a _reason_ that is not easily understood or known than WTF is your problem!?


----------



## Catwalk

Complain too much on Internet forum(s).


----------



## dulcinea

Catwalk said:


> Complain too much on Internet forum(s).


Probably because they get picked on for being too "blunt" or saying the "wrong" thing in person, they need an outlet somewhere.


----------



## dulcinea

Fumetsu said:


> I've had experience with only one. In HS. In the " special class" where I so did not belong.
> 
> Anyway this was this him:
> 
> -about 350 lbs, wore ratty, T-shirts full of holes which did not cover his bully that drooped and swung like a Gnip Gnop. Unbrushed, dishevled hair, stubbly-with food in it-dirty sweat pants-smelled like hell because he refused to bathe.
> -Superior attitude, self proclaimed " genious". During reading time he would quickly run his finger down the page. When the teacher called him out he'd say " I am reading! Actually, that's me reading at half-speed.
> - besides the above he made many outrageous claims ( like he infented the question mark. Sometimes he wouldccuse chestnutts of being lazy ... heh, I keed) like that he was born with blue hair. He would blurt out horribly innapropriate things. He heard the gang bangers talking about " trains" ( not the Amtrak kind) and blurted out " I've been in a train before! Lot's if times!"
> - He would write hentai and try to get all the girls in class to read it. When we said no he would throw a fit and call us whores and bitches.
> 
> That was just the obnoxious stuff. What should have gotten him removed from public school:
> 
> -He would ask out every girl who entered the class. When they turned him down he would threaten to rape and murder them. The teachers would laugh and say " Oh you!"
> - He would continue to sexually harrass-and occasional assault-all of the girls in class.
> -He would throw temper tantrums a lot, sometimes they included throwing chairs at female students and teachers.
> 
> I get that it's a mental illness that can't be helped -though to what extent? I don't believe they even tried. I think in his case they just said " Ah use the " disability" excuse and no one will be able to touch him."- but ya know when they put others in danger I don't get a shit. Get them out if the public.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been accused of being honest like that-I just got in trouble for it because I didn't have the Autism hand-stamp.
> 
> I mean yes, I was not well socialised because I spent most of my childhood in a research center and the rest with abusive parents would not let me interact with the outside world. Whn I did go to out in public everyone treated me like garbage so I just learned that socialising was dangerous.
> Even though it was a rational response to my environment it was not the correct or popular colored badge so it was not an excuse. I was just a bad kid.
> 
> I guess that is why I have an issue with most mental well, issues. If you have the proper label you're immune. If you have a _reason_ that is not easily understood or known than WTF is your problem!?


This is so atypical of my experience with more high functioning Autism. His traits sound more like someone with a psychosis, as well.


----------



## Fumetsu

dulcinea said:


> This is so atypical of my experience with more high functioning Autism. His traits sound more like someone with a psychosis, as well.


*Shrug* Maybe. Maybe he was low-functioning.

In my experience the idea that other people have such a shitty concept of reality to believe something like " I have blue hair." and then laugh because " Haha I have outsmarted the simps." Is pretty common and incredibly frustrating when you need to work with them. i don't have the patience for it.



Catwalk said:


> Complain too much on Internet forum(s).


Whaaat? Internet is the BEST ( the only) place to complain! It's just an anonymous sound bored. You don't have to bother your friends with it, you get to keep reputation for never complaining and if it bothers anyone on the internet well, you have no reason to care and neither do they cuz they can just ignore it. Really, it's the best service the internet has given to humanity! :laughing:


----------



## Handsome Dyke

Fumetsu said:


> I get that it's a mental illness


It isn't. Asperger's is a developmental disorder.


----------



## Fumetsu

Benty Fagatronicus said:


> It isn't. Asperger's is a developmental disorder.


Whichever. It still shouldn't be dismissed when they are a danger to others.


----------



## pwowq

Eh, people with developmental disorders can have bad days and moments too. Just like everyone else.


----------



## Kittens Are Awesome

dulcinea said:


> This is so atypical of my experience with more high functioning Autism. His traits sound more like someone with a psychosis, as well.


I wouldn't really diagnose someone just from a post based on someones biased experience. I would leave the diagnosing to the professionals.


----------



## dulcinea

Kittens Are Awesome said:


> I wouldn't really diagnose someone just from a post based on someones biased experience. I would leave the diagnosing to the professionals.


I know. I was just wondering is all.


----------



## chad86tsi

My oldest son is an aspie, and the areas I see him struggle with the most in social situations are things that are not Aspergers, his struggles are with the other traits that are frequently comorbid (additional disorders co-occurring with), not the Aspergers itself. Aspergers is just a different way of seeing the world. Most often it is his OCD and anxiety disorders causing him to cross personal boundaries because he can't let a subject go, or won't drop a line of conversation when it needs to end, or because his ADD/ADHD cause him to become distracted/off topic, or he can get over-animated/over-engaged in an activity (hyper).

These common co-morbid disorders are cause for a lot of mis-diagnosis (saying someone is something they are not), and cross diagnosis (attributing a behavior to the wrong disorder). It is difficult to parse out, and is best understood when you study cognitive behavior therapy.

There are some useful meds to help with some of this, but they only mask the severity of the OCD and anxiety, they don't get rid of it. They also don't change they way a person thinks.


----------



## Librarylady

Fumetsu said:


> I've had experience with only one. In HS. In the " special class" where I so did not belong.
> 
> Anyway this was this him:
> 
> -about 350 lbs, wore ratty, T-shirts full of holes which did not cover his bully that drooped and swung like a Gnip Gnop. Unbrushed, dishevled hair, stubbly-with food in it-dirty sweat pants-smelled like hell because he refused to bathe.
> -Superior attitude, self proclaimed " genious". During reading time he would quickly run his finger down the page. When the teacher called him out he'd say " I am reading! Actually, that's me reading at half-speed.
> - besides the above he made many outrageous claims ( like he infented the question mark. Sometimes he wouldccuse chestnutts of being lazy ... heh, I keed) like that he was born with blue hair. He would blurt out horribly innapropriate things. He heard the gang bangers talking about " trains" ( not the Amtrak kind) and blurted out " I've been in a train before! Lot's if times!"
> - He would write hentai and try to get all the girls in class to read it. When we said no he would throw a fit and call us whores and bitches.
> 
> That was just the obnoxious stuff. What should have gotten him removed from public school:
> 
> -He would ask out every girl who entered the class. When they turned him down he would threaten to rape and murder them. The teachers would laugh and say " Oh you!"
> - He would continue to sexually harrass-and occasional assault-all of the girls in class.
> -He would throw temper tantrums a lot, sometimes they included throwing chairs at female students and teachers.
> 
> I get that it's a mental illness that can't be helped -though to what extent? I don't believe they even tried. I think in his case they just said " Ah use the " disability" excuse and no one will be able to touch him."- but ya know when they put others in danger I don't get a shit. Get them out if the public.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been accused of being honest like that-I just got in trouble for it because I didn't have the Autism hand-stamp.
> 
> I mean yes, I was not well socialised because I spent most of my childhood in a research center and the rest with abusive parents would not let me interact with the outside world. Whn I did go to out in public everyone treated me like garbage so I just learned that socialising was dangerous.
> Even though it was a rational response to my environment it was not the correct or popular colored badge so it was not an excuse. I was just a bad kid.
> 
> I guess that is why I have an issue with most mental well, issues. If you have the proper label you're immune. If you have a _reason_ that is not easily understood or known than WTF is your problem!?


I have aspergers myself, and I still agree with you. I may have had some difficulties socializing and understanding certain cues, but my parents still taught me right from wrong. If I were to threaten anyone or disrespect boundaries, I would get punished as a kid. Because of that, I learned boundaries easy. It's astounding to me how some autistic kids will do terrible things and then say "I can't help it, I have autism". Bullshit. You never saw me doing any of that because I was actually taught well and knew how to respect others. Anyone can if they just try.

It irritates me so much and it brings a bad name to everyone else. I actually had this experience with an aspie girl who kept touching this other girl who didn't want to be touched. The girl asked me for advice, and I told her to ask the aspie to stop. Turns out that the aspie girl then threw a huge fit and said "You can't tell people with autism to do certain things because it discriminates against the community". WTF??? 

People who disrespect boundaries should be punished regardless of what condition they have. Don't use a condition as an excuse when you didn't even bother trying.


----------



## Fumetsu

Librarylady said:


> I have aspergers myself, and I still agree with you. I may have had some difficulties socializing and understanding certain cues, but my parents still taught me right from wrong. If I were to threaten anyone or disrespect boundaries, I would get punished as a kid. Because of that, I learned boundaries easy. It's astounding to me how some autistic kids will do terrible things and then say "I can't help it, I have autism". Bullshit. You never saw me doing any of that because I was actually taught well and knew how to respect others. Anyone can if they just try.
> 
> It irritates me so much and it brings a bad name to everyone else. I actually had this experience with an aspie girl who kept touching this other girl who didn't want to be touched. The girl asked me for advice, and I told her to ask the aspie to stop. Turns out that the aspie girl then threw a huge fit and said "You can't tell people with autism to do certain things because it discriminates against the community". WTF???
> 
> People who disrespect boundaries should be punished regardless of what condition they have. Don't use a condition as an excuse when you didn't even bother trying.


Hm. As I suspected; I often hear people-people I know, internet groups-talk about the horrors of having an Aspie child. They get so dramatic about how hard it is to go out, how no one understands. As if even trying to teach them any different just was not even a concept.
With no knowladge of it I thought maybe that was the case but it just never sat well with me. I always thought "Well, regardless of a kid's nature a parent can teach them that it's wrong...can't they? I mean, that's the only we even have a functioning society. NO ONE is born with manners or social skills."

One particular case that I deal with now is a friends daughter. She had the kid diagnosed and put on full disability at 4 yrs old. Why? Because she reacts to everything she doesn't like by screaming and other displays of aggression-which is a perfectle reasonable response in her situation.

Her Mother and grandmother only know how to communicate by screaming. When her friends found out she was pregnant we all said the same thing " That kid is going to learn to scream at everyone to get her way."
Sho' nuff- she screams and throw tantrums over EVERYTHING and before the thought of telling her that it is not appropriate behavior she was put on disability. This has of course, only confirmed the child's theory that screaming and acting out gets her what she wants.


You seem like a pretty rational and even tempered person. I'm glad to know that some parents can do it right.


----------



## chad86tsi

My aspie knows right from wrong, and is very compassionate and concerned with the happiness of others, but when he is under the spell of a compulsion or obsession, he can't be stopped. He will do and say horrible things seemingly without regard for anyone when he gets upset, and then is horrified by his own actions when he comes around. Discipline and respect are not the solution to certain behaviors. some must be avoided by circumventing the obsessive behaviors and addressing compulsions, -before- the manifest as actions. Of all the horrible things my son has done, not once was truly intentional or without regard others, he just wasn't in' his right mind. When he becomes disregulated, all bets are off, and no behavior is out of the realm of possibility. He's tried to kill me once, my wife once, and himself 4 times. He gets so disregulated he can't be successful in these attempts, his ability to think is gone when he gets like that.

Also, no two aspies are alike, just like non-aspies...


----------



## Felix5

Benty Fagatronicus said:


> She asked him a question and he answered it. How do you have a friend with Asperger's and have no idea about taking things literally? Also, you wanted him to lie _to the waitress_ because _you_ paid for the meal? How does that make any sense?
> 
> 
> Does this have anything to do with Asperger's Syndrome?
> 
> 
> You seem like a terrible friend.


*Excuse me??*_ I _paid for the meal! It was _me_, not him and it was damned expensive too. I expect _him _to show _me_ some common courtesy. Oh you didn't like your food? Well you pay next time asshole. If I don't like a free meal someone is giving me out of the kindness of their heart, I suck it up, paste a phony smile on my face, and go about my day. It's not like anyone died because the food didn't meet my very subjective taste buds. It's what every single person does on this planet, with the exception of the Oh so special snowflake "Aspies." Welcome to the human race Aspies. If you don't wish to participate, then go to your nearest pharmacy and buy a bottle of pills. No one really cares what you do with yourself if you're going to have that shitty attitude. 

It's babyish to have the thought process that you have. Stop being such a man baby and grow up! 

Don't pull that asperger's BS with me. I'm an INTJ and if anyone understands bluntness, it's me. She asked a typical question that waitresses ask, it's a courtesy question. This is basic common courtesy that my friend doesn't understand and it's not because he's rude it's because he's ignorant and naive of common courtesy. It drives me insane, but he tries and listens to my constructive criticism, so I give him more chances than I would give anyone else. If I knew a regular person who did this to a poor, hard working, kindly waitress, I would drop that asshole in an instant. 

If he were like _you _and just didn't give a shit about what he said to other people, then I would slam the door in his face. 

I don't believe that people should use their asperger's as an excuse to avoid common courtesy. I was taught to be polite to other people at a young age. He can be taught as well. 

I work in retail and when I say, "Hi, how are you today?" I expect you to say fine out of politeness. In fact, I will keep asking until you answer. I will be acknowledged!



> You seem like a terrible friend.


You seem like a bona fide asshole, but I wasn't going to say anything until you blatantly decided to insert your opinion where it wasn't asked for. 

If you honestly believe any of the bullshit you just spewed, then I don't know what to think. You need some serious help man.


----------



## dulcinea

Not everyone with Asperger's is brutally honest. Not everyone who is brutally honest has Asperger's. I'm not even sure if brutal honesty is classified by mental health professionals as being a definitive symptom of Asperger's/high functioning Autism. This is merely a stereotype. Some people with Asperger's reach a phase in life in which they are obsessed with the idea that they might have offended or hurt someone with their words or actions. I am not yet sure if I have it. Hopefully, soon, I'll get evaluated to find out, for sure. I have often shown symptoms; in my younger days have said things that would offend or annoy people without really realizing it. As I've gotten older, I've trained myself to be more aware of the effects of my actions on other people's feelings. I've learned to put up more filters. It took a lot of time, maturity and effort. However, I acknowledge that everyone with Asperger's has a somewhat unique experience; what worked for me may not work for you.


----------



## chad86tsi

Felix5 said:


> *Excuse me??*
> 
> I don't believe that people should use their asperger's as an excuse to avoid common courtesy. I was taught to be polite to other people at a young age. He can be taught as well.


Excuse? really? You sound Ignorant or under informed. Aspergers is no longer a separate diagnosis, it's just a version of autisim. It's a disability, not a choice. It's an inability, not a lack of will. It's a medically diagnosed fact, not an excuse.




Felix5 said:


> *Excuse me??*
> 
> In fact, I will keep asking until you answer. I will be acknowledged!


You need some serious help...

Sorry you bought food that was wasted. That doesn't excuse your response if you did so willingly, knowing this person had a disability. I don't ask a blind man to show me where to find something in a store, and you shouldn't expect someone with aspergers to demonstrate your version of proper social decorum. They may be able to comply, but the expectation is where you have failed.


----------



## Marshy

chad86tsi said:


> Excuse? really? You sound Ignorant or under informed. Aspergers is no longer a separate diagnosis, it's just a version of autisim. It's a disability, not a choice. It's an inability, not a lack of will. It's a medically diagnosed fact, not an excuse.


what kind of loser dies from drowning, just drink the water


----------



## Khadroma

For a psychology-oriented forum, I'm actually a little taken aback at how ubiquitous the ableist comments are (in this thread).

Doubly so that this is catered towards personality psychology, which usually concerns understanding differences among people. Many of the posters here are demonstrating an unexpected level of rigidity, as well as lack of acceptance and openness.


----------



## dulcinea

chad86tsi said:


> Excuse? really? You sound Ignorant or under informed. Aspergers is no longer a separate diagnosis, it's just a version of autisim. It's a disability, not a choice. It's an inability, not a lack of will. It's a medically diagnosed fact, not an excuse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You need some serious help...
> 
> Sorry you bought food that was wasted. That doesn't excuse your response if you did so willingly, knowing this person had a disability. I don't ask a blind man to show me where to find something in a store, and you shouldn't expect someone with aspergers to demonstrate your version of proper social decorum. They may be able to comply, but the expectation is where you have failed.


Thank you
I honestly didn't see what the big deal was, and I worked in the service industry.


----------



## dulcinea

Felix5 said:


> *Excuse me??*_ I _paid for the meal! It was _me_, not him and it was damned expensive too. I expect _him _to show _me_ some common courtesy. Oh you didn't like your food? Well you pay next time asshole. If I don't like a free meal someone is giving me out of the kindness of their heart, I suck it up, paste a phony smile on my face, and go about my day. It's not like anyone died because the food didn't meet my very subjective taste buds. It's what every single person does on this planet, with the exception of the Oh so special snowflake "Aspies." Welcome to the human race Aspies. If you don't wish to participate, then go to your nearest pharmacy and buy a bottle of pills. No one really cares what you do with yourself if you're going to have that shitty attitude.
> 
> It's babyish to have the thought process that you have. Stop being such a man baby and grow up!
> 
> Don't pull that asperger's BS with me. I'm an INTJ and if anyone understands bluntness, it's me. She asked a typical question that waitresses ask, it's a courtesy question. This is basic common courtesy that my friend *doesn't understand* and it's not because he's rude it's because *he's ignorant and naive of common courtesy*. It drives me insane, but he tries and listens to my constructive criticism, so I give him more chances than I would give anyone else. If I knew a regular person who did this to a poor, hard working, kindly waitress, I would drop that asshole in an instant.
> 
> If he were like _you _and just didn't give a shit about what he said to other people, then I would slam the door in his face.
> 
> I don't believe that people should use their asperger's as an excuse to avoid common courtesy. I was taught to be polite to other people at a young age. He can be taught as well.
> 
> I work in retail and when I say, "Hi, how are you today?" I expect you to say fine out of politeness. In fact, I will keep asking until you answer. I will be acknowledged!
> 
> 
> 
> You seem like a bona fide asshole, but I wasn't going to say anything until you blatantly decided to insert your opinion where it wasn't asked for.
> 
> If you honestly believe any of the bullshit you just spewed, then I don't know what to think. You need some serious help man.


So, you admit that your friend doesn't understand that it's a common courtesy question and is socially naive, but make him sound like the worst person ever, then continue to personally attack someone who called you out on your judgmental attitude, but don't see how that makes you out to be a jerk or a bad friend. And you can't use being an INTJ as an excuse, either, because I've interacted with quite a few INTJs on here who are absolutely nice people and are not judgmental towards people who have social interaction issues.


----------



## Khadroma

dulcinea said:


> Thank you
> I honestly didn't see what the big deal was, and I worked in the service industry.


I agree with this (and your post afterwards). 

The thing about "manners", "common courtesy", etc. is that it's highly subjective and also culturally influenced. 

I also worked customer service (and in *different countries to boot*) and I didn't particularly notice anything particularly shocking about what her friend said. As someone with an immigrant background myself from a "coconut" culture, I really don't understand how it was a particularly inappropriate response considering her phrasing. It is important to be considerate of other's feelings, but the structure and setup of that sentence was not particularly conducive to anything but an honest response.


To further illustrate my point,



> She asks, "*You didn't finish your burger,* was there something wrong?"



Pay attention to the portion in bold. This added comment communicates something VERY different as to what I'm about to follow with. This phrasing is highly unusual for a typical "waitress" question (from experience); usually it's phrased as 



> Did you find everything okay?



And even then, I wouldn't feel particularly offended if someone said "no" and continued, because it's not my cooking/home-cooking. It's a consumer-oriented exchange, and feedback is usually valued. Demand/supply, capitalism, and all that.
Would this be different if he were a guest at one's family's house? Yes, probably. In that instance, a diplomatic answer would be justified. However, this context and venue usually is okay to be honest because it's just a market exchange. I understand what she meant by trying to be polite as possible to people working in retail/customer service; but it's not like he said something rude about her or to her. He simply answered a question that she asked, which was phrased in a particular way.
Perhaps she did take it personally; yet, of all the things to be hurt about, if this genuinely hurt her, customer service probably isn't for her. 

Communication is key in customer service and if you really expect certain responses or wish to discourage certain responses (like his) while maintaining polite conversation and making the person feel included, you should be careful with how you phrase and structure your sentences.

I'd also like to note that this is why people who are good writers tend to do very well in this sector, from my experience.


EDIT: Another thing I'd like to note, is that it appears from this thread that the consensus is with her friend as of now, which indicates that perhaps it isn't a "courtesy" issue.


----------



## Khadroma

Felix5 said:


> I work in retail and when I say, "Hi, how are you today?" I expect you to say fine out of politeness. *In fact, I will keep asking until you answer. I will be acknowledged!
> *
> 
> 
> You seem like a bona fide asshole, but I wasn't going to say anything until you blatantly decided to insert your opinion where it wasn't asked for.
> 
> If you honestly believe any of the bullshit you just spewed, then I don't know what to think. You need some serious help man.



Also, I was skimming this thread but after glancing at @dulcinea's post, I only just noticed this portion (in bold). This in and of itself is non-standard and rather awkward. There are many reasons why one might not respond to that question; including limited English proficiency, embarrassment/social awkwardness, or any combination thereof and more. I'd reckon cultural differences, as well. 

I'm imagining my poor grandmother right now, perhaps not so confident in her ability to respond in English (although she can understand some but definitely not the American cultural nuances of saying "fine" back); she comes from a different era so she is rather shy, and here comes this random woman pestering her until she gets a response. Certainly, she would be very scared. 

Situations such as illustrated above can happen, which is why some retailers ask questions on their application about one's ability to handle emotional labor and react calmly to different types of people. I remember completing my first job application at a retailer, which probed me rather specifically on a multitude of scenarios (ability to understand accents, what to do when someone is angry, etc.)


----------



## Mange

They say unpleasant things without realizing or caring about the other person


----------



## Zeus

I have a cousin who has it. You have to be patient with helping teach them social skills. Buy them a book on art facial expressions and teach them sometimes in conversation less is more. It helped him tremendously.


----------



## BranchMonkey

*Diversity In All Things, Yes, Even Restaurant Behavior*

I have acquaintances and online friends labeled Aspies, and they don't bother me any more than other people because of my frame of mind, level of pain (I have auto-immune, cervical/lumbar spine and other diseases), and they all have positive qualities I focus on, e.g. some are damn loyal and will come to another person's aid if that person is getting ganged up on (circle the wagon old-timers going after someone newer, a lone wolf, et cetera).

I don't get the label the person, or find out the label, then full throttle hate on 'em. Or I 'get it' but it's a kind of ill-will, and often heated up by ignorance, or someone looking for an easy target. 

Where I come from, i.e. how I grew up, we were taught 'Don't beat around the bush' and don't be fake, so if someone asked me how I liked the food or if it was good and it wasn't, I'd say so. 

Now I don't eat in restaurants, and back when I did I made it clear it wasn't the waitress or waiter's fault and I tipped well, but being honest doesn't automatically make someone 'an asshole' regardless of who paid for the meal.

Wow, 'entitlement' apparently extends for some to being lied to as long as it is flattering. Not my way, but as I said, I also made it clear it wasn't the server's fault. Different strokes and all that:

No one is cookie-cutter, Aspies or anyone else. 

Some of us value and state the facts; others sugar-coat things. I am more likely to do the first and my husband the second. We've been together 29 years so I'm glad different, for us, is not only acceptable but enriching.


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## Malandro

Felix5 said:


> *Excuse me??*_ I _paid for the meal! It was _me_, not him and it was damned expensive too. I expect _him _to show _me_ some common courtesy. Oh you didn't like your food? Well you pay next time asshole. If I don't like a free meal someone is giving me out of the kindness of their heart, I suck it up, paste a phony smile on my face, and go about my day. It's not like anyone died because the food didn't meet my very subjective taste buds. It's what every single person does on this planet, with the exception of the Oh so special snowflake "Aspies." Welcome to the human race Aspies. If you don't wish to participate, then go to your nearest pharmacy and buy a bottle of pills. No one really cares what you do with yourself if you're going to have that shitty attitude.
> 
> It's babyish to have the thought process that you have. Stop being such a man baby and grow up!
> 
> Don't pull that asperger's BS with me. I'm an INTJ and if anyone understands bluntness, it's me. She asked a typical question that waitresses ask, it's a courtesy question. This is basic common courtesy that my friend doesn't understand and it's not because he's rude it's because he's ignorant and naive of common courtesy. It drives me insane, but he tries and listens to my constructive criticism, so I give him more chances than I would give anyone else. If I knew a regular person who did this to a poor, hard working, kindly waitress, I would drop that asshole in an instant.
> 
> If he were like _you _and just didn't give a shit about what he said to other people, then I would slam the door in his face.
> 
> I don't believe that people should use their asperger's as an excuse to avoid common courtesy. I was taught to be polite to other people at a young age. He can be taught as well.
> 
> I work in retail and when I say, "Hi, how are you today?" I expect you to say fine out of politeness. In fact, I will keep asking until you answer. I will be acknowledged!
> 
> 
> 
> You seem like a bona fide asshole, but I wasn't going to say anything until you blatantly decided to insert your opinion where it wasn't asked for.
> 
> If you honestly believe any of the bullshit you just spewed, then I don't know what to think. You need some serious help man.


It's not that serious. You make it sound like he went: "This food is fucking shite!" and threw it in her face or something lol. If he makes you this angry, then just end the friendship.


I find anyone who I have to repeat things to all the time really annoying. I've had a fair amount of acquaintances with autism (not Aspergers specifically because that diagnosis is fazed out where I live) and that seems to be a problem with the majority of them. I'm an ESTP 7w8. When I talk, I talk clearly, firmly and sprinkle jokes and information into everything. So when I talk to these people, I feel like I could say:

"I really wanted some of the stuff from The Fenty Collection and I literally dashed over to The Mailbox to get some and the woman there was like "Can I help?" and I said "Yeah, I want to look at the foundations please" and she brought over and was like "I think this shade would suit you, you know!" and I just looked at it and swatched it and I said "Nah, this is too orange... I need something a bit more yellow-ish." and she picked up the other shade and as soon as I saw it I was like "Yes! This is my shadeee!" and I was so gassed and everyone was just looking like I was mad."

And they'd just hear:

"Mailbox.... Fenty.... Yeah.... Foundations.... Nah.... Yellow-ish.... Shaaaddeeee!.... Everyone was looking like I was mad."

And then they'd ask me questions about things I'd already said and I'd get really annoyed and I'd have to say the whole thing again.


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## Judson Joist

As with people with full-b0re autism, they lack cognitive empathy. Not moral empathy, mind you, just cognitive empathy. Maybe "lack" is a strong word. "Deficient" sounds better.


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## chad86tsi

Judson Joist said:


> As with people with full-b0re autism, they lack cognitive empathy. Not moral empathy, mind you, just cognitive empathy. Maybe "lack" is a strong word. "Deficient" sounds better.


Yah, I see a lot of mentions about what they think ("they don't care", "they do it on purpose", etc) but there is never any evidence that they actually asked the Aspie what they were thinking. They jsut take a set of observed behaviors and actions and apply standard judgements to them. Problem is people on the spectrum are not standard in their thinking.

My aspie son does and says things that are infuriating. When you ask him why, h is reasoning is always very revealing, and in his distorted world, quite logical.

He does care. He doesnt' hurt people on purpose. He just wants to get along with people. His jokes and humor are well intentioned, despite someitmes appeairng like horrible borish behavior. He simply under-developed in key social skills that we all take for granted, they are automatic for the rest of us.

I've also seen the detail/memory problmes in my son. He's usually thinking abot 6 things at a time, and that makes it hard to focus on any of them. Memories get distorted or have gaping holes, and that changes the context of everything remembered. We make him repeat instructions for important things untill we know it's in there. His mind is almost constant chaos. Living in constant chaos doesn't lend itself well to rational behaviors and good social decorum. It also gets in the way of some of the most basic functions the rest of us are adept at.


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## Judson Joist

chad86tsi said:


> My aspie son does and says things that are infuriating. When you ask him why, his reasoning is always very revealing, and in his distorted world, quite logical.


Kind of like how my former roommate's autistic step-son pronounces words as they're written.



> He's simply under-developed in key social skills that we all take for granted that are automatic for the rest of us.


Cognitive empathy.



> I've also seen the detail/memory problmes in my son. He's usually thinking abot 6 things at a time, and that makes it hard to focus on any of them. Memories get distorted or have gaping holes, and that changes the context of everything remembered.


Just like my former roommate (the one with an autistic step-son).



> His mind is almost constant chaos.


Have him watch this video I made and tell me what he says about it.


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## Yummy Donuts

Daily reminder that 95% of the people who say they have Aspergers don't actually have it.


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## Judson Joist

Yummy Donuts said:


> Daily reminder that 95% of the people who say they have Aspergers don't actually have it.


I'm not even convinced that it's a "syndrome" so much as a certain set of neurometric architecture.


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## chad86tsi

Aspergers isn't in the DSM anymore, it's now just referred to as ASD (autism Spectrum Disorder). Note the word spectrum.

Qualifying requires a preponderance of symptoms, but you don't need to have all of them. Conversely, you can have many symptoms and not meet the threshold for medical diagnosis. Doesn't mean you don't have real symptoms, and the therapies and supports for those people are still effective, diagnosis or not.

My oldest son was never diagnosed as Aspergers, he was diagnosed as Autistic. We just call it aspergers to those that work with him so they understand what set of skills are likely present, and which are likely lacking.


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## Mr Castelo

Some of the posts in this thread made me a bit sick. I don't understand how some people can't grasp a concept as basic as understanding that *not everyone functions and processes information the same way*, even when they're into MBTI, which deals with that in other aspects.


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## Kaboomz

the most annoying thing about autism is that people think it makes you exempt from being a total cunt. 

you can be socially incompetent, pathologically obsessive, and an asshole. they aren't mutually exclusive.


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## chad86tsi

Kaboomz said:


> the most annoying thing about autism is that people think it makes you exempt from being a total cunt.
> 
> you can be socially incompetent, pathologically obsessive, and an asshole. they aren't mutually exclusive.


And it isn't mutually inclusive either. They are just as dynamic as neuro-typical people. 

The lable may not excuse, but it might explain. A visually impared person wtih a cane and dark glasses cuts in front of you in line, you may not get angry. The same person witout the cane or glasses does the same thing and you think they are a selfish asshole and yell at them. Autisim has no visible indicators, but it is a disability.


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## de.sidera

A real life example from today:

I politely argued and reconciled with a neurotypical ISTP acquaintance. 

He did something that overstepped my boundaries without knowing. I didn't say a word about how he was or should have been behaving; I just expressed my uneasiness and hope that it wasn't grounded, and when I noticed that he was being bitter in group, I took him on one said and asked him not to be mean because I had not been mean to him, and went on discussing with him "because I'm sorry when someone gets hurt" as I told him.

It ended well but it struck me that he told me (not in an angry way) that I have an unpleasant attitude. And he couldn't express himself better.

This interaction is quite atypical compared to the usual scenario where the asperger hurts a neurotypical and then can't/won't handle it and comes out as childish and egoistic.

- I was the hurt one
- I think I was very mature and shrewd in handling the situation
- He answered confusedly more than once when addressing his own emotions ("You said you were sorry if I was offended, so I got offended, I would have never got offended if you hadn't mentioned it")
- I was the one preoccupied with harmony and reconciliation even if I thought I had nothing to feel guilty about

Even if we both looked like robots interacting I'm pretty sure, he was a socially competent robot, fairly uninterested/incapable of handling emotions, while I was the empathetically competent robot, fairly uninterested/incapable of handling social norms. 

*I know my emotions (now, after 4+ years of therapy) and I often know other people's emotions, sometimes even more than they do. But I give words a completely different aura or no aura at all. The miscommunication doesn't happen regarding the words, but the social shadow of language. I don't get it and I often see no worth in it. I struggle to learn, but at the end of the day they're not part of my emotional vocabulary so if you're talking with me you're going to put them aside - a thing many people can't or won't do.*


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