# INTP with a ESFJ Is it workable?



## B-Con (Dec 24, 2010)

Daevor said:


> Anyone know if @B-Con and/or @BlondeRJ are still around? I'm in a similar situation as Toosie (though I'm INTP, the wife if ESFJ). Been married for almost 9 years with 2 kids, and the marriage is going through a rather rough patch.
> 
> I'm hoping @B-Con and @BlondeRJ can share some of their "secrets" with us.


We're here, just busy. Spent this week having our second kid delivered, so online activity is minimal.

Feel free to post questions here with an @ mention or to PM us. Replies will probably be delayed, but we're happy to help.


----------



## Daevor (Jul 13, 2012)

B-Con said:


> We're here, just busy. Spent this week having our second kid delivered, so online activity is minimal.
> 
> Feel free to post questions here with an @ mention or to PM us. Replies will probably be delayed, but we're happy to help.


Thank you so much for your reply, and a hearty congratulations on number 2 :happy:. I hope things are not too hectic in the "war zone"!

I have been trying to get my thoughts in order to pen them coherently, but it's been a bit tough. I will get to this soon, I hope.

And I think it's better if we communicate in this thread. That way other couples might learn from our experiences, one way or the other.

Thanks again @B-Con. Give me a few days to sift through my thoughts (and emotions? those must be in there somewhere).


----------



## Daevor (Jul 13, 2012)

Alright, let me try to lay out the situation for you. I will also ask my wife ( @Tachio ) to post here so you can get her view of things as well, as, though I'll try not to, my post will obviously be somewhat biased.

Disclaimer:I'm still not thinking very clearly about this, so the following will likely be a little jumbled, and I may ramble at parts.

Before the beginning

I have been married for nearly 9 years. The first time (according to what I remember - she'll tell you a different story) I saw Tachio (i.e. the first time I looked upon her face, before I had even heard her speak or seen her interact with others), it took me a mere split second to decide that I wanted to married her. Some may call bullshit, but that is the truth of it. I do not really know why that was. It could perhaps have been because I believe I am able to mostly discern one's personality merely by looking at one's face... and I liked what I saw? I don't know.

Anyway, I then proceeded to pursue her relentlessly. I very much chameleoned, and was also very careful to take my cue from her. For example: "I'm not looking for a boyfriend," she said. "And I'm not looking for a girlfriend." I replied, _I'm looking for a wife_. After spending some time with her on a Saturday, not as a date, of course, because then she would simply shut me out, I would say goodbye and nonchalantly mention "See you when I see you." _And I have every intention of seeing you again next weekend._

Okay, I think you get the point. And so we eventually got married.

It has begun

From my point of view, I was super-ultra-ecstatic when I got married. I wanted to make her happy (still do, btw), but I guess I was too immature? I don't know, I spent a lot of time doing the things I used to do by myself, e.g. reading, playing computer games, reading, oh, and did I mention reading?

In hindsight I can see that this must have been terribly upsetting for her, but I needed (and still do) my alone time. Anyway, at some point in our early marriage I tried to include her in my activities, e.g. I did middle-distance running as a pastime and wanted her to join me. When she objected that she's "not a runner", I got her a bicycle and she joined me for a few runs. But then it just sort of fizzled out.

She had, or appeared to have, no interest in the computer games I played. And the sci-fi and sword-and-sorcery fantasy books I indulged in appeared not to be her cup of tea either. Perhaps I should just summarise this part as a significant lack of common interest.

However, I was still pretty giddy about being married (I quite literally thought of her as "my queen"), and was very much in love(/lust). And that might have been a huge part of the problem. Sex happened significantly less than I would have liked, which I now suspect has led to some form of resentment towards her over the years. I have only recently identified the existence of this (possible) resentment, previously only knowing that I feel some kind of negative feeling toward her, but not knowing what it is.
(On a side note: from what I have read on various forums over the past couple of months about INTPs is that we're not supposed to be too into sex. I must then be an atypical INTP, because I'm a pretty horny bastard ._. That being said, let's keep all responses to this sidenote on a mature level, shall we?)

We were even separated for a short period in the early part of our marriage, as we simply weren't seeing eye to eye. In short, I just wasn't getting from her what I was expecting to get from a wife. To be fair, I'm pretty sure she wasn't getting what she was expecting to get from a husband either, but I'll let her elaborate on that.

A rocky boat

During the separation (which, for clarity's sake was a few days long, and, being the good daughter that she is, was mostly due to her always choosing her parents over me), I missed her terribly and we got back together again. But nothing much changed in the sex department (a huge frustration for me), and we still did not have common interests. Oh wait, I tried taking an interest in some of the things she was interested in: various tv shows, songs (I learnt who Usher was!), Formula 1 racing, etc. Some of it formed common ground for us to converse, but I always felt separated from my true self - the one who really wants to talk about the possibilities expressed in some or other sci-fi or fantasy novel I read. Concepts, ideas, abstractions. Or even something on the finer nuances of the English language (or language in general) would (at best!) appear to bore her to death.
(Contrast that with the fun bit of banter I am having with @Marimeli here.)


Typical ESFJ-INTP differences?

And now I am wondering if these are typical ESFJ-INTP differences. Yes, she likes having people around, going to places, mixing with them. I literally get ill. Yes, _literally_. Case in point: when the fasting month (Ramadan) started a little over a week ago, I was very ready to go to mosque for our nightly prayers (even left the vehicle gate open in preparation). The same day my stomach started acting up with cramps. The moon was not sighted that evening, so the prayer thing would only start the next night. And true as Bob, I got the cramps BIG TIME and ended up not going. It turns out the anticipation of physically being among people I don't know was the cause of my cramps. On the other hand, I can imagine that _not _being among people must be rather draining on Tachio.

I detest it (and get rather irritated) when I'm in a conversation where people are merely talking “nonsense”. I honestly don't care what happened in the latest episode of Days of our Lives. Nor do I really care who got voted off on Survivor/Idols or was the last team to arrive in The Amazing Race. Give me something I can apply the thought processes of logical deduction to (or even more exciting: logical inference!), and I'm a happy chappy.

Furthermore, I intensely dislike physical labour. Yes, I hate "housework" (although I do help out with the kids, bathing them, and changing nappies, on the odd occasion). However, I'm _not _the handyman. Once I have solved something in my head, I have solved it. I have little to no desire to actually implement the solution. And whenever I actually psyched myself up enough to do something in that department, all I got from Tachio was comments on what was wrong with it. Publicly too.
Now this, plus my highly unfulfilled sex life, plus being criticized for my typical INTP traits of wanting to be alone a lot, wanting to be very specific in my speech and writing, and, yes, correcting others (interpreted as me being obnoxious – btw, I'm really working hard to not correct others as much), plus not being able to communicate on the level I naturally do (or would like to) has led to extreme frustration, as well as me effectively subconsciously distancing myself from her (probably as some kind of “defence”mechanism?) 

Twice bitten?

Then we moved to another province (state) as I had gotten a job there. And at some point (we lived there for 10 months), I tell Tachio, hey, let's forget the past, I know things didn't go so well, let us start fresh. It felt like a huge weight had been lifted from me, and I was once again totally into her, enamoured, infatuated, and all that giddy stuff.
But neither of us had really changed. And eventually I was pretty much back to subconsciously distancing myself from her.


Things are becoming a bit of a jumble in my head, so I'm rather not going to write more on the “history”, and you can ask specific questions and I'll answer them.


How do I feel now?


That's a tough one to answer. I feel:


Obligated by marriage: I married her, didn't I? I gave my vows. I should stick by them.
Obligated by the kids: We have 2 kids. I owe it to the kids to give them a stable home, irrespective of my own happiness (or lack thereof).
Obligated by my personal honour: I am not a failure. Hence, I should not “fail” at marriage.
Obligated by her willingness to make this work: How can I say no, it's over, when she's willing to do just about anything to make this work. This also ties in with number 3, i.e. it would be a stain on my honour to give up when the other party is ready and willing to make it work.
Not sure if I'm in love. What is love? What is being in love? Yes, I care for her very much, and I appreciate her good traits and the things she does for me (admittedly I don't express this appreciation as often as she'd like to hear it, I think), and I want her to be the greatest woman she can be. For example, over the past few years I've been putting her through university and, God willing, she'll complete her B.Com (Risk Management) degree at the end of this year. And even though she's (currently) a stay-at-home mom, I have gotten her a domestic worker to help out with the housework (okay, to be honest, it's also because _I_ don't want to be the one to do housework, but still, it counts, right?), so that she can spend more time on her studies. Should we get divorced, she is most welcome to continue staying in my house (we're not married in CoP), and I'll still pay for the rest of her studies, and I'll try my best to help her get a job after she graduates, and I'll help her financially as best I can if/when she wishes to get a place of her own. To summarize, there is almost nothing I wouldn't do to help her improve herself/her situation. But I cannot give her _myself_. That inner core, that part of me behind my carefully constructed wall, I cannot expose that to her again. I've done it twice, and... I can't see myself doing it a third time.
In short, it feels as if she is _a_ woman I care deeply about, but not _my_ woman I care deeply about.
(Tachio, when you read this, I know I this is a terribly harsh thing for me to write, but I'm trying to be honest here. I am sorry this is how I feel, but this _is_ how I feel. And there are some things I just cannot say, but can express it more easily by writing it.)


So what _do _I want??


I want to do “the right thing”. But what is the right thing? I don't know! I wish I did, but I don't. There is this wall between us. Yes, one of my own construction, which I _can _tear down, except, I _can't_! A prerequisite for our marriage to work (in my mind) is that I let her in behind the wall. And I just can't do that.
On the other hand, how can I possibly decide that “It's over.” given points 1 to 4 above? Would that not be like a smack in her face (point 4), and would that not mean that I don't really care about our kids (point 2)?


Perhaps it's a lose-lose situation for me, no matter what I do, and perhaps that is simply the harsh reality of life?


So what do I want from you?


As a fellow INTP married to an ESFJ, _tell me your secret! _How do you handle the constant criticism (spoken or not), the apparent (and often not so apparent) lack of logical decision-making, being around lots of people because it makes your wife happy or feeling guilty for not doing so, and all the other typical INTP-ESFJ differences?


Ps: not sure if this is an INTP-ESFJ thing, or if I'm just lucky like that, but do you also intensely dislike it when an item you are looking for is not where it is supposed to be, and has been placed on a _totally __completely illogical _place? At 4am (we eat very early as it's the fasting month) I'm looking for the new Ensure (meal supplement shake) tin that I had bought a few days ago. It's not in the pantry on the shelves with the other sealed groceries. It's not in the kitchen cupboard with the “in-use” groceries. It's not on the kitchen counter, nor in the oven (desperation sets in), nor in the kitchen cupboard with the crockery, nor in the medicine cabinet, nor in the fridge (I did say I was desperate), nor in the lounge, and it's not in the study either. Eventually I give up. At 5am when Tachio gets up to eat I find out it's in the pantry, in a packet, _in the box in which we keep the old newspapers_. I felt like screaming into a pillow.
And this happens A LOT. I now have my own hairbrush (since the family one apparently doesn't have “a place”), and have been considering getting my own nail clipper too. For the same reasons I've also been thinking of getting my own TV remote, but I don't really watch TV that much.


Okay, that's a lot to digest, and I apologize for it being so jumbled and possibly incoherent (and incomplete), so fire away with any questions if you require clarity.


And please don't judge Tachio on what I've said. Wait for her input first.


Thanks for reading.


----------



## Daevor (Jul 13, 2012)

Okay, that post above was written in Libre Office, and copy-pasted here. Somehow the spacing got screwed up between certain words. I'm sorry about that.
Furthermore, I can't edit my post properly (the website gives me some weird display when I try to edit), so I'm really _really_ sorry about that. Reading it like it is grates on my nerves because of the lack of spacing, so I know exactly how you, the reader, must feel.

EDIT: managed to fix it


----------



## Tachio (Jul 17, 2012)

I don't have anything to add to Daevor's post, but I'm here too if you need to ask any questions.


----------



## TrailMix (Apr 27, 2011)

My boyfriend is an ESFJ and I am an INTP... We have only been officially together (in a romantic sense) for 7 months, but have been best friends for a year. We are both pretty mature for our age and he is my first boyfriend, and I am his second long-term girlfriend. 

We get along incredibly well. He is very accepting of my weirdness and incredibly understanding of my anti-social-ness and odd habits. We both are interested in sports and also super nerdy things like magic: the gathering and shit like that lolz. We are very open and very honest with each other. We've never really had problems, but our biggest peeves of each other are, for me, that he gets too emotional and becomes openly angry at times, which I find incredibly immature and embarassing, while he gets annoyed with me because when I get in a playful mood, I can be very... annoying haha.But we both tell each other and we're both aware and willing to learn from each other. 

We have talked about it and we hope to get married in the next couple years when the time is more appropriate for the both of us.

I'm no expert on relationships, but I'm very happy with this one, so good luck to you and honesty and openness are the most important thing you can have in a relationship! Good luck


----------



## Daevor (Jul 13, 2012)

@TrailMix

Thank you for your contribution. What I deduce from it is that there are 3 factors (that you have mentioned) that make your relationship work:

1) High level of maturity.
2) He is very accepting and understanding of your anti-social nature and general oddness.
3) You have some common interests which you both find highly entertaining (e.g. Magic: The Gathering).

Evaluating this against my relationship:
1) I'm working on this, but I believe I still have some way to go.
2) She is now becoming understanding of my nature. (As a side-note: it's a little tougher when the guy is the INTP, since traditionally (and in our culture) the guy is supposed to be the outgoing one, the handyman, and all that other stuff that us INTPs are simply not. But then again, I don't much care for "tradition" and the general opinion of society.)
3) *sigh* Non-existent. Don't get me wrong, it is apparent that she is _trying_ to show interest in the things that interest me, but it is also apparent that she is only doing it for the sake of displaying interest, not because she herself is interested in it.

Again, thank you for your post. You have given me a little more information on which to base my decision regarding my marriage.


----------



## Tachio (Jul 17, 2012)

@ TrailMix
Thank you for your well wishes. 


When Daevor and I met, we didn't know our personality type. This is the reason for most of the problems in our marriage. They were caused by ignorance and failure to communicate expectations effectively. Daevor believed I would give him what he needed from a wife, but he failed to inform me before we were married, what that would be. After we were married I had to change the way I dress, had to change the way I wore my hair and I had to change how I behaved at family gatherings, eg. I couldn't dance at my mom's birthday party. Yet, when we went to a 21st party 2 years prior, he had no problem getting down with me on the dancefloor. All that now doesn't matter, I'm just proving my point. My point being that after we were married he changed and he expected the same from me. I was at a total loss, I didn't know why he was being so distant, what was I doing wrong? Turns out he wanted more sex and less cooking and cleaning. Sex whenever he wanted, whether its during prayer times or even on a religious celebration day, (a quickie after the family lunch) and when I wasn't comfortable with that he got upset, and thats how the resentment grew. I'm sorry, I was just not raised like that. Prayers came first and having sex in the middle of the day on a holy celebration day, was a foreign concept for me. I was not wired that way. Now we know ESFJs are traditionalists and INTPs, are not. So that explains his behaviour on that day.

During the marriage, when he was unhappy with something he kept quiet, bottled everything up and kept distancing himself from me. I had no idea he was feeling neglected. I was busy seeing to our baby,(now 2 years old) and focusing on my studies. I thought Daevor supported me, which he did, but he also felt sidelined.

We typed ourselves 2 months ago, and now so many things make sense. Why we are the way we are. This is the reason why I believe we can have a fulfilling marriage, because we are informed now. We are mature now( He was 21 and I was 19 when we met). I also understand why Daevor has his reservations and I don't blame him for building the wall. Whatever he decides to do, I'll support him.

I wish you and your boyfriend a long and happy relationship.:happy:


----------

