# NT Women's Union



## INTJellectual (Oct 22, 2011)

This is a venting thread for very limited NT female species out there who have distinct and unique way of understanding the world. Post your experience as an NT, your resistance to society's demand over you, and how you challenged their conventional and traditional view on women. You can also post your fun stories and grandiose plans and desires.

I think those women who were in Women's Liberation Movement are NT women or the idea came from an NT woman who insisted on equal rights and opportunities among gender to make a positive change.

Go girl power!!!


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## PyrLove (Jun 6, 2010)

INTJellectual said:


> I think those women who were in Women's Liberation Movement are NT women or the idea came from an NT woman who insisted on equal rights and opportunities among gender to make a positive change.


Do you think Women's Lib has gone too far in some ways? Of course, not far enough in others as we are still paid less than a man with equal experience/education/qualifications doing the same job but I sometimes get a sense that Women's Issues in the US has given some women license to man-bash without repercussions or genuine cause.




I'm in my 40s and I think age has given me some immunity to the princess vs the intellect smack down I felt when I was younger. I am dismayed to see it still happening in my younger co-workers though. I have two female co-workers -- both beautiful, both intelligent -- who just turned 30. One is a presents herself as a bling-wearing, almost flighty Princess. She is treated by my male coworkers (mid-20s to mid-50s) with gentlemanly deference but often dismissed as lacking substance. The other is a comparatively conservative woman who presents her intelligence first. She is often demonized behind her back and dismissed as rigid but is the first one they go to when they need help.


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## quadrivium (Nov 6, 2011)

ChanceyRose said:


> I'm in my 40s and I think age has given me some immunity to the princess vs the intellect smack down I felt when I was younger. I am dismayed to see it still happening in my younger co-workers though. I have two female co-workers -- both beautiful, both intelligent -- who just turned 30. One is a presents herself as a bling-wearing, almost flighty Princess. She is treated by my male coworkers (mid-20s to mid-50s) with gentlemanly deference but often dismissed as lacking substance. The other is a comparatively conservative woman who presents her intelligence first. She is often demonized behind her back and dismissed as rigid but is the first one they go to when they need help.


Any advice on how to embrace both?


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## PyrLove (Jun 6, 2010)

corgiflatmate said:


> Any advice on how to embrace both?


Nothing easy, that's for sure. Either wait until age negates any sexual attraction (like for me) or maybe dress conservatively but act approachable. I don't think it's necessary to masculinize yourself but maybe (in the case of the Princess above) remove the jewelry, wear more sober clothing, not show so much leg and cleavage. For the intellect, maybe relax the body language a bit.

Either way, it involves doing something that isn't natural for either type all in the name of being respected.


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## INTJellectual (Oct 22, 2011)

ChanceyRose said:


> Do you think Women's Lib has gone too far in some ways? Of course, not far enough in others as we are still paid less than a man with equal experience/education/qualifications doing the same job but I sometimes get a sense that Women's Issues in the US has given some women license to man-bash without repercussions or genuine cause.


At least women today have equal opportunities than some centuries ago (or even millenia). I've seen many women now who are the bread winner of their families and many men are getting unemployed. And statistics shows that men who are unemployed are rising in numbers. Maybe it's due to technology with many companies being data-oriented with lots of women capable of handling such data. And some previously labor-intensive work that men predominates are now replaced by some machines. But it's not fair that women who have the same experience and qualifications are paid less than their male counterparts. That's why it's good to have some Women's Lib that checks the society's inequalities when it comes to gender treatments.


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## INTJellectual (Oct 22, 2011)

ChanceyRose said:


> Nothing easy, that's for sure. Either wait until age negates any sexual attraction (like for me) or maybe dress conservatively but act approachable. I don't think it's necessary to masculinize yourself but maybe (in the case of the Princess above) remove the jewelry, wear more sober clothing, not show so much leg and cleavage. For the intellect, maybe relax the body language a bit.
> 
> Either way, it involves doing something that isn't natural for either type all in the name of being respected.


Even if you dress conservatively, there are some men who are attracted to you sexually and it can't be avoided most of the times. Maybe you should avoid unnecessary interaction to that man, what do you think?

And for the intellectual girl, what do you think is the best advice so she would gain some respect without repulsing people? Often the intellectual girl is seen as a threat both to male and female co-workers and most will do anything to disparage her, or malign her to her superior, so the intellectual girl could not advance and those who are envious of her has a chance of climbing up the ladder.


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## PyrLove (Jun 6, 2010)

INTJellectual said:


> At least women today have equal opportunities than some centuries ago (or even millenia). I've seen many women now who are the bread winner of their families and many men are getting unemployed. And statistics shows that men who are unemployed are rising in numbers. Maybe it's due to technology with many companies being data-oriented with lots of women capable of handling such data. And some previously labor-intensive work that men predominates are now replaced by some machines. But it's not fair that women who have the same experience and qualifications are paid less than their male counterparts. That's why it's good to have some Women's Lib that checks the society's inequalities when it comes to gender treatments.


Agreed on all accounts: Technology is the great equalizer. 



My daughter and I had an interesting conversation tonight. She doesn't like to read stories with male primary protagonists because, most of the time, the female romantic interest in those stories is portrayed as an instigator of drama -- the one who starts the relationship trouble and feeds it through her drama (daughter calls the character type a 'Tsunade'). Stories with primary female protagonists don't usually have a male romantic interest that starts and harbors the drama.

I'm not sure whether or not my daughter's observations are 100% fair but I thought it noteworthy that she noticed a trend. She tends to read fairly current books in the young adult and fantasy genres, both male and female authors.

I mentioned to her that it might be because, stereotypically, men are seen as more rational and women as more emotional.


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## PyrLove (Jun 6, 2010)

INTJellectual said:


> Even if you dress conservatively, there are some men who are attracted to you sexually and it can't be avoided most of the times. Maybe you should avoid unnecessary interaction to that man, what do you think?
> 
> And for the intellectual girl, what do you think is the best advice so she would gain some respect without repulsing people? Often the intellectual girl is seen as a threat both to male and female co-workers and most will do anything to disparage her, or malign her to her superior, so the intellectual girl could not advance and those who are envious of her has a chance of climbing up the ladder.


I think avoiding unnecessary interaction if possible is a start. If you work in a male-dominated industry or department or for a small business you may not have a choice. The princess I work with consciously uses her sex appeal to get what she wants. I don't think she realizes that doing so prevents most of the men from respecting her. Nor do I think she realizes that in about 10 years, it simply won't work anymore. She's a smart girl and it pains me to see her bury herself in a Jessica Rabbit impersonation. 

You're right, intelligence in a young woman is seen as a threat by both genders. It's unfortunate that a man can be forthright, blunt, and boldly claim his ideas as his own but a woman often has to couch her assertions in softer, less direct language. The intellect I work with does a reasonable job of that but it still seems stiff, unnatural for her. I know from our conversations that she'd just love to be more direct and forceful. I wish I knew of a better way for her. I never figured it out for myself. I was often accused of being argumentative and tactless. It became a non-issue when I hit my late thirties.


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## INTJellectual (Oct 22, 2011)

ChanceyRose said:


> My daughter and I had an interesting conversation tonight. She doesn't like to read stories with male primary protagonists because, most of the time, the female romantic interest in those stories is portrayed as an instigator of drama -- the one who starts the relationship trouble and feeds it through her drama (daughter calls the character type a 'Tsunade'). Stories with primary female protagonists don't usually have a male romantic interest that starts and harbors the drama.


Most of my favorite stories and novels have been "females" as protagonist. I don't know, but, I prefer females to be saving the world and kicking ass than the ones who are rescued and waiting for prince charming to come.


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## INTJellectual (Oct 22, 2011)

ChanceyRose said:


> I think avoiding unnecessary interaction if possible is a start. If you work in a male-dominated industry or department or for a small business you may not have a choice. The princess I work with consciously uses her sex appeal to get what she wants. I don't think she realizes that doing so prevents most of the men from respecting her. Nor do I think she realizes that in about 10 years, it simply won't work anymore. She's a smart girl and it pains me to see her bury herself in a Jessica Rabbit impersonation.
> 
> You're right, intelligence in a young woman is seen as a threat by both genders. It's unfortunate that a man can be forthright, blunt, and boldly claim his ideas as his own but a woman often has to couch her assertions in softer, less direct language. The intellect I work with does a reasonable job of that but it still seems stiff, unnatural for her. I know from our conversations that she'd just love to be more direct and forceful. I wish I knew of a better way for her. I never figured it out for myself.* I was often accused of being argumentative and tactless.* It became a non-issue when I hit my late thirties.


Bold parts: I'm very careful with that one. Although I see myself as argumentative and tactless on a personal level, doing so in a workplace might backfire on me, and most of the times I play it safe. I don't know what would happen if I let my natural impulse expressed in other people not so close to me. I often think when I get angry outside, it would be uncontrollable, that's why I'm careful. How did you deal with that emotion btw? What did you do to handle that and minimize the damage it might cause to others?


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## PyrLove (Jun 6, 2010)

INTJellectual said:


> Bold parts: I'm very careful with that one. Although I see myself as argumentative and tactless on a personal level, doing so in a workplace might backfire on me, and most of the times I play it safe. I don't know what would happen if I let my natural impulse expressed in other people not so close to me. I often think when I get angry outside, it would be uncontrollable, that's why I'm careful. How did you deal with that emotion btw? What did you do to handle that and minimize the damage it might cause to others?


I wish I'd had that wisdom in my 20s.

A lot of soul searching and monitoring my language. I was never genuinely angry; I just didn't understand why others _didn't_ want their ideas to be thoroughly tested, poked, and prodded before they were implemented. I don't take criticism of my ideas personally and didn't understand that most everyone else does. I read Stephen Covey's The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People as well as Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning. From both of those I took the ideas that I alone control my emotions and that we need to seek to understand before we attempt to make ourselves understood. I also discovered MBTI which helped explain why I didn't get what everyone else on the planet seemed to get. It helped me see my faults more clearly.

How do you handle it?


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## INTJellectual (Oct 22, 2011)

ChanceyRose said:


> I wish I'd had that wisdom in my 20s.
> 
> A lot of soul searching and monitoring my language. I was never genuinely angry; I just didn't understand why others _didn't_ want their ideas to be thoroughly tested, poked, and prodded before they were implemented. I don't take criticism of my ideas personally and didn't understand that most everyone else does. I read Stephen Covey's The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People as well as Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning. From both of those I took the ideas that I alone control my emotions and that we need to seek to understand before we attempt to make ourselves understood. I also discovered MBTI which helped explain why I didn't get what everyone else on the planet seemed to get. It helped me see my faults more clearly.
> 
> How do you handle it?


But holding anger can be devastating to yourself, haha. Lots of people get insulted when their ideas they think is the best, is not implemented. It's a blow to their ego. You notice many people in the workplace think they are right? and always right? Grrr... Toxic people, lol especially STs. It's a problem too with INTJs. We always seem to be misunderstood even though we didn't mean anything bad from what we say or do.

I love that saying. I have read that in one MBTI career book of mine. "Seek first to understand, and then to be understood." Learning about MBTI can be so much liberating, and you are getting more aware of yourself and those people around you. It's also helpful to become aware of your pitfalls as well as maximizing your own strengths.

I handled it by lots of self-control actually. And maybe to the point of suppressing my anger. But I read a book (Your erroneous zones by Dr. Wayne Dyer) in controlling anger, you should try to postpone it. And when you master how to postpone it, then you'll realize that there's no need to postpone it and get angry. They say expressing anger is healthy, but Dyer said that not being angry at all is healthier. I have applied that principle to my husband who is an ESTJ (mind you, Te-doms with Te-aux can be explosive when both parties are angry, haha). But it took years before I mastered the art of anger management and controlling extreme emotions. Right now, me and my husband is better at handling temper. I wish I could apply that to work without getting hypertensive.


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## See Above (Oct 4, 2011)

INTJellectual said:


> And for the intellectual girl, what do you think is the best advice so she would gain some respect without repulsing people? Often the intellectual girl is seen as a threat both to male and female co-workers and most will do anything to disparage her, or malign her to her superior, so the intellectual girl could not advance and those who are envious of her has a chance of climbing up the ladder.


Rule # 28: Always make your boss better at her/his job. Whatever you can do to inform/prepare/support your boss, you (politely and respectfully) do it, at every opportunity. Pay attention and know when important matters are looming on the horizon for your boss. Make sure that what he/she worries about, is also what you worry about. The boss learns that you can be relied on to make her/him better at what he/she does, and what other people say about you won't matter. The boss has come to rely on you. (And, of course, it's a given that you must be good at your job, too!) Since this is not a public process, it is unlikely that others will be intimidated by the process. While it is true that, with a possibly incompetent boss, the boss may be reluctant to recommend you to others as one with the potential for advancement because of the risk of losing your support, you will, nonetheless, have had an opportunity to learn a LOT of inside information and perspective from the boss as a result of having been relied on and, additionally, there will always be the possibility of being called upon as a stand-in for the boss (since you are now the person who knows the most about various situations, behind the boss) in the situation where there are too many hot irons in the fire. BTW, If you haven't already, master humility and respect for others.

Just my 2-ish cents.


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## MsBossyPants (Oct 5, 2011)

INTJellectual said:


> Even if you dress conservatively, there are some men who are attracted to you sexually and it can't be avoided most of the times. Maybe you should avoid unnecessary interaction to that man, what do you think?
> 
> And for the intellectual girl, what do you think is the best advice so she would gain some respect without repulsing people? Often the intellectual girl is seen as a threat both to male and female co-workers and most will do anything to disparage her, or malign her to her superior, so the intellectual girl could not advance and those who are envious of her has a chance of climbing up the ladder.


Great thread idea, @INTJellectual
This post caught my eye and I wanted to comment on it. My background: I spent many years working as Director of Human Resources writing policy regarding workplace conduct and sorting out disputes and sexual harassment claims. 



> Even if you dress conservatively, there are some men who are attracted to you sexually and it can't be avoided most of the times. Maybe you should avoid unnecessary interaction to that man, what do you think?


I don't think that you should be confrontational in any way, but I think avoiding the man is the wrong thing to do. Don't let anyone intimidate you. Your gender is not an excuse for men to harass you or discriminate against you, or even just to make you feel uncomfortable because of your gender. Even if it doesn't go that far and he is just attracted to you, that's his issue, not yours. Your place of business is just that - a workplace - not a dating service where you are on display. You should be free to work in an environment that is free from this type of behavior. Firmly and professionally make it clear that you are not interested in his attentions, and if he persists in doing subtle things that make you uncomfortable, or if he crosses the line, report him. 

This may sound counterintuitive - you might think that "complaining" makes you look weak, but in truth the opposite is true. It takes courage and strength to stand up to harassment. If you work for a company that has anti-harassment policies in place, they'll likely want to know about any sort of improper behavior. Something to consider is that the person who harasses you, or is "sexually attracted" to you and behaving improperly - it's likely that you aren't the only woman who he is making feel uncomfortable. Because women don't report it, and the offender "gets away with it", he'll likely continue the behavior unchecked. Because of that, many times the inappropriateness of the behavior escalates. 

If you feel that at your place of employment you can't report inappropriate behavior because you may feel that your complaint will be ignored, or that you will be harassed even further because of it, you might want to work elsewhere. If your company doesn't take sexual harassment complaints seriously, no matter how professional or skilled you are or how hard you work, the playing field will never be even, and you will have difficulty advancing there.


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## nujabes (May 18, 2012)

MsBossyPants said:


> Great thread idea, @_INTJellectual_
> This post caught my eye and I wanted to comment on it. My background: I spent many years working as Director of Human Resources writing policy regarding workplace conduct and sorting out disputes and sexual harassment claims.
> 
> 
> ...


I spent this summer interning in an office for the first time, and I am hoping you could answer some of my questions.

First, what is your view on workplace attire? Where do you draw the line between self-expression and (as it would seem to me) blatant teasing?

Do you think there is a difference between a woman being disregarded because of her dress/appearance and a man being disregarded because of his dress/appearance? ie, is there a difference between a woman dressing towards the provocative end of the spectrum and a man dressing on the casual/messy end of the spectrum if they are both treated the same way (negatively)?

Do you think that men are underrepresented in sexual harassment statistics? If so, could that be a result of men being less likely to interpret compliments as sexual advances? This is also related to another question: where do you see the line between a compliment and a sexual advance? Would saying "Hi Sarah! You look very pretty today," in as neutral a tone as possible, still be interpreted as harassment?


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## Miss Butterfly Girl (Aug 3, 2011)

Dear World...

I AM AN INTJ, DEAL WITH IT.

I am a female...deal with that.

I will not cook or clean for anyone just because. My natrual desire is not to nuture, give love, submit, be passive, cooperate, be beautiful, or any of the feminine energy aspects that are "inherently present in my nature" because I am a woman. No and I do not care for children. I take control of my life and make my own decisons. I do not need a man to lead me anywhere for anything. There is no amount of money any man can make that will make me marry him. You're ugly...you're ugly period. That's right, I judge physically as well.

Dear Men,
Stop being scared of a woman who thinks! Just becasue I like to measure what I am getting into first does not make me uncaring. Marriage is not the top of my list and absolutely not children. My solemn facial expression is not to ward you off--I am truly thinking about something like global-warming or Neitzsche's passages. Just because I am not overtly flirting with you does not mean I am not interested, Fi and Se are my lowest functions. I desire a man purely for love and affection, particularly a manly-man who likes to protect and provide. And another thing:

*I AM NOT A MAN HATER--everyone stop thinking that!




*


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## nujabes (May 18, 2012)

Miss Butterfly Girl said:


> I desire a man purely for love and affection, *particularly a manly-man who likes to protect and provide.*


Aaaaaaand there it goes. You were so close...


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## Miss Butterfly Girl (Aug 3, 2011)

Hilarious! I know, it sounds soooo messed up but if I could expand? In short, we would be doing it together. Sorry for the mix-up!


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## MsBossyPants (Oct 5, 2011)

gingertonic said:


> I spent this summer interning in an office for the first time, and I am hoping you could answer some of my questions.
> 
> First, what is your view on workplace attire? Where do you draw the line between self-expression and (as it would seem to me) blatant teasing?
> 
> ...


Your questions, one at a time ...



> First, what is your view on workplace attire? Where do you draw the line between self-expression and (as it would seem to me) blatant teasing?


I'll assume you are asking about provocative dress ... Every company has different standards, and each person has different tastes. Where the problem arises is that it's usually a judgment call, and that judgment is in the subjective eye of the beholder. The clearer the company policy is the better. It's difficult to write that policy. How exactly can these terms be defined?: tight, cleavage, short, low-cut, etc. Policy has to be written so that it in itself is not sexist. Difficult. 

Having said that - "blatant teasing"? That suggests projecting motive onto the type of dress. What I mean is this: Let's say a large-busted woman and a small-busted woman both wear the same scoop-necked top. No apparant cleavage is visible on the smaller-busted woman, but on the larger-busted woman cleavage is visible. Is the implication that the larger busted woman may be "blatantly teasing" by exposing her breasts and cleavage? If the person viewing both women finds the lowcut top appropriate on the smaller busted woman, but not on the larger busted woman, that's their subjective view and doesn't reflect on either woman. If they are both wearing the same (or same type) blouse, it's either appropriate or inappropriate regarless of who wears it. 



> Do you think there is a difference between a woman being disregarded because of her dress/appearance and a man being disregarded because of his dress/appearance? ie, is there a difference between a woman dressing towards the provocative end of the spectrum and a man dressing on the casual/messy end of the spectrum if they are both treated the same way (negatively)?


That's a bit of apples and oranges (she: provocative; he: casual/messy) But I think that each is an adult responsible for dressing themselves appropriately for work. You shouldn't be harassed, but the individual does bear the responsibility of dressing appropriately according to the standards expected in their work environment.



> Do you think that men are underrepresented in sexual harassment statistics? If so, could that be a result of men being less likely to interpret compliments as sexual advances?


I think that sexual harassment is underrepresented in general - both sexes. 

As far as "men being less likely to interpret compliments as sexual advances" ... I've seen that go both ways:
She told me she liked my tie gets interpreted as: she was hitting on me 
and
I thought that we could date and she could still be my supervisor 



> This is also related to another question: where do you see the line between a compliment and a sexual advance? Would saying "Hi Sarah! You look very pretty today," in as neutral a tone as possible, still be interpreted as harassment?


Generally:

Complimenting the wardrobe in a neutral tone is OK. Like this:
Great tie, Bill
What a lovely scarf

It also depends on who is saying it to whom. If you and I are co-workers who are both comfortable with that type of compliment - it's probably OK. If however you're my boss and you say "you look very pretty today" it gets a little fuzzier, especially if it's a pattern. 

When in doubt, don't make the comment.


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## day_dreamer (Nov 8, 2010)

Not being taken seriously is an issue that had been haunting me for long now. I don't dress provocatively at all. I wear ordinary T Shirts and jeans everyday to work because I work in a game industry and casual dressing is considered all right. But still some of my colleagues don't take me seriously. I have tried some stuff which has improved the situation a little bit and I want to share those-

1. Identify which people are considered important in the office, unofficially. Some people, in spite of being just another employee, are given far more importance than even the boss, by everyone. Make that person respect you and half your job is done.

2. If your boss gets to rely on you, it is even better. But if he is incompetent, then at least make sure that he does not trivialize you. My immediate boss sucks, so I have gotten in good terms with the company's CEO, Production Head and made sure everybody saw that they treated me respectfully.

3. Give your opinion only when it makes sense or is a good one. That way people will start taking you a bit more seriously. Try not bitching, gossiping or back biting as those are the hallmarks of bimbos.

4. There are some people who, when threatened by you, will try disrespecting you in front of people. If you do not react, others will think that he is right and duplicate the same behavior. NEVER LET IT GO THAT FAR. Introverts and extroverts have different ways of dealing with things. If some introvert offends you, confront him. Most introverts hate being talked to often as they like being left alone. If it is an extrovert, ignore him. Being ignored is the worst thing that can happen to any extrovert. Don't get into open fights or argument as that would eventually turn against you. Simply make your point and become silent after that. People will value you more as they will see you can maintain dignity and yet be affirmative.

5. A man is known by his companion. Make friends with colleagues who are at least not disrespected in the office.


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## shadowofambivalence (May 11, 2011)

I have tried compromising myself for others but I dont do that anymore becasue I just end up feeling dead and resentful inside

I am nice to whoever is nice to me, but I am also picky about who i am freinds with and even more picky about romantic relationships

I may be passive agressive, but that does not make me a pushover becasue I will avoid/ignore rude, bratty, manipulative, bigoted, intentionally annoying, and willfully ignorant types of people becasue they are nothing to me

I am not afraid to question an authority figure who makes no logical sense

I am not very empathic so guilt trips and sob stories dont work on me, I become skeptical and see all the bullshit for what it really is

I see morality as a form of vanity and I get annoyed with people who try to shove their own morality down other people's throats or use it to make themselves appear better than others

I dont want children, I dont even want to adopt any, and I have no interest in getting married

If people through themselves at me or try to get me to like them I will push them away and dislike them even more


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## day_dreamer (Nov 8, 2010)

shadowofambivalence said:


> I have tried compromising myself for others but I dont do that anymore becasue I just end up feeling dead and resentful inside


 How I wish I could do that.  I sometimes envy INTJs for being able to shut out people and just be themselves. And I have noticed that even if INTJs are rude, people still cannot disrespect or ignore their opinions because they always make sense.


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## MsBossyPants (Oct 5, 2011)

If anyone is experiencing sexual harassment or sex-based discrimination in the workplace, speak out.

There are laws in place to protect you from this.

For anyone who may need help, this is where to go for information:

Here is the link to the EEOC (Equal Employment Opportunity Commission)



Sex-Based Discrimination


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## quadrivium (Nov 6, 2011)

MsBossyPants said:


> If anyone is experiencing sexual harassment or sex-based discrimination in the workplace, speak out.
> 
> There are laws in place to protect you from this.
> 
> ...


Recently, I was sexually harassed by a client and there was scant information in the employee handbook on anything procedural. It was as if companies expected you to be harassed by your supervisor rather than.. well anyone else.


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## INTJellectual (Oct 22, 2011)

MsBossyPants said:


> Great thread idea, @_INTJellectual_
> This post caught my eye and I wanted to comment on it. My background: I spent many years working as Director of Human Resources writing policy regarding workplace conduct and sorting out disputes and sexual harassment claims.
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for your wonderful advice.I think most of the companies have anti-harassment laws and behaviors like that with acts of lasciviousness are not tolerated. So reporting those kind of men are better than staying silent while he continues harassing other. Great advice!


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## INTJellectual (Oct 22, 2011)

gingertonic said:


> Do you think that men are underrepresented in sexual harassment statistics? If so, could that be a result of men being less likely to interpret compliments as sexual advances? This is also related to another question: where do you see the line between a compliment and a sexual advance? Would saying "Hi Sarah! You look very pretty today," in as neutral a tone as possible, still be interpreted as harassment?


Isn't showing a man sexual advances a compliment?


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## MsBossyPants (Oct 5, 2011)

corgiflatmate said:


> Recently, I was sexually harassed by a client and there was scant information in the employee handbook on anything procedural. It was as if companies expected you to be harassed by your supervisor rather than.. well anyone else.


This is clearly a violation. From the EEOC website:




> The harasser can be the victim's supervisor, a supervisor in another area, a co-worker, *or someone who is not an employee of the employer, such as a client or customer*.


Your employer is responsible for providing a workplace free from harassment. It is not limited to the "brick and mortar" location of the business itself. Even if you were offsite acting as an agent of your company, they are responsible. 

As soon as any violation occurs, report it immediately. They are responsible for correcting the problem. If they don't make an effort to correct it, and it becomes an ongoing problem, a grievance can be filed against them. They in turn cannot retaliate against you for filing the grievance.

Again from the site:



> It is also unlawful to retaliate against an individual for opposing employment practices that discriminate based on sex or for filing a discrimination charge, testifying, or participating in any way in an investigation, proceeding, or litigation under Title VII.


Document everything. Be as specific a possible. Dates, times, who was involved, what was said, what was done, who you are reporting the incident to. Put in writing and keep a copy for yourself. Ideally, present it to your supervisor, or Human Resources, depending on your company's policy. Have the person you give the written complaint to sign and date your copy indicating they received it. Any reputable company should be willing to this. 

Do this every time it happens. Your employer cannot punish you for doing this. If they do, it is a further violation. Be professional about it, but firmly assert that you expect them to correct the problem.


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## INTJellectual (Oct 22, 2011)

Miss Butterfly Girl said:


> Dear World...
> 
> I AM AN INTJ, DEAL WITH IT.
> 
> ...


You sound like me when I was younger  I could've said that myself.

But there are still many men out there who are threatened by women's power especially if the women are the Thinking types. The men still want to dominate females that's why they are making this "double-standard" principle to keep girls/women in their place. But if you really analyze the double-standard principle, it's just a mind-set brainwashed by society for many centuries, and it has no strong basis but to keep the women from dominating and making choices. I wish women from other culture who are not treated as equals shall make their feisty move towards a better change.


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## FlaviaGemina (May 3, 2012)

Hey, bitch, you copied my idea! I'll hate you forever. *joking* Great idea, I'll read all of it now.


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## quadrivium (Nov 6, 2011)

MsBossyPants said:


> This is clearly a violation. From the EEOC website:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh I sat through and read this once you posted it. I then recalled my incident and how I didn't go about it the right way. 

I did inform my supervisor but didn't file. The problem then stopped. Looking back I should have filed to protect my employers. The incident was caught on camera so I wasn't worried about being retaliated against.


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## MsBossyPants (Oct 5, 2011)

INTJellectual said:


> Isn't showing a man sexual advances a compliment?


Outside of work, in the correct context, yes. 

But at work, it's sexual harassment. Careful there.


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## Cetanu (Jan 20, 2012)

Hi all,

I am challenging the idea of a female only venting thread.

Separating a thread, group, community or person by gender keeps the distance between male/female where it is. Only when you no longer associate yourself as a separate gender and instead choose the idea of men and women being equal, to the point of gender being irrelevant, will you ever achieve equality.

Counter or accept.


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## FlaviaGemina (May 3, 2012)

Cetanu said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am challenging the idea of a female only venting thread.
> 
> ...


Totally agree. However, many people don't think like that and NT women are still expected by some people to behave more 'womanly', just like F men are expected to be more 'manly'. So NT women can still experience all kinds of weird phenomena based on people perceiving them as a 'woman'. Whether they perceive themselves and everybody else as gender neutral isn't always relevant.


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## MsBossyPants (Oct 5, 2011)

Cetanu said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am challenging the idea of a female only venting thread.
> 
> ...





FlaviaGemina said:


> Totally agree. However, many people don't think like that and NT women are still expected by some people to behave more 'womanly', just like F men are expected to be more 'manly'. So NT women can still experience all kinds of weird phenomena based on people perceiving them as a 'woman'. Whether they perceive themselves and everybody else as gender neutral isn't always relevant.



Both are valid points, IMO.

But, the thread asks NT women to share their experiences as NT Women. That is a perspective that only an NT woman has.

EDIT: And ... I didn't see a sign on the door that said, "No men allowed".


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## INTJellectual (Oct 22, 2011)

Cetanu said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am challenging the idea of a female only venting thread.
> 
> ...


Hi @_Che_tanu

It's not the issue about equality. But how society treats certain people or minorities if they are not "in the norm". With NT males, there would be no opposition because men are expected to be Thinkers and to act logically. But it's different when you're a Thinker and a woman, and more especially if you belong to the small percentage of Intuitives. I think NF men also feels the same pressure as NT females, to act accordingly to an accustomed traditional behavior of men and women. It's really defying the norm and you can't avoid how the people would treat you because you think, act, and behave differently to the society's accepted behavior.

And not all people thinks the same about equality and role-sharing especially if one has a traditional conservative view.


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## INTJellectual (Oct 22, 2011)

FlaviaGemina said:


> Hey, bitch, you copied my idea! I'll hate you forever. *joking* Great idea, I'll read all of it now.


Hahaha! It's just a coincidence. :tongue: I think yours has a different purpose than mine. I was thinking about this ages ago when I happened to converse with ENTJ and ENTP women about how they deal with society and how society treats them. I think the thread was "Which is the most difficult MBTI combination, ENTJ female or ENTP female?

As both of them are extroverts, I never knew they have secret struggles inside. Especially how difficult it is for them to not be understood by many and yet, it is still difficult for them to be alone.


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## INTJellectual (Oct 22, 2011)

MsBossyPants said:


> Outside of work, in the correct context, yes.
> 
> But at work, it's sexual harassment. Careful there.


LOL. I really can't imagine guys complaining like, "She touches me, I feel so disrespected"

I don't know if it's just my imagination or opinion, but I guess men like it


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## MsBossyPants (Oct 5, 2011)

INTJellectual said:


> LOL. I really can't imagine guys complaining like, "She touches me, I feel so disrespected"
> 
> I don't know if it's just my imagination or opinion, but I guess men like it


Please tell me you aren't serious.

Imagine what it would feel like if the situation were reversed. If you were at work one day, just doing your job, and your male supervisor put his hands on you . And then have someone say to you, "I can't imagine why you would complain about something like that ..... he touched me, I feel so disrespeted. ... hahaha... I'll bet you liked it."

It isn't any different if the person being harassed is a man. No one has the right to touch you or make suggestive comments to you regardless of the sex of the persons involved. 

Because of the attitude you expressed above, I think it may be even more difficult for a man to come forward with a complaint. 

I can't imagine how how bad it would make someone feel, to first be humiliated by the offending encounter, and then be further humiliated by having someone mock him for coming forward with the attitude "men like it".


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## INTJellectual (Oct 22, 2011)

MsBossyPants said:


> Please tell me you aren't serious.
> 
> Imagine what it would feel like if the situation were reversed. If you were at work one day, just doing your job, and your male supervisor put his hands on you . And then have someone say to you, "I can't imagine why you would complain about something like that ..... he touched me, I feel so disrespeted. ... hahaha... I'll bet you liked it."
> 
> ...


Yeah I wasn't serious, I was smiling :kitteh:

Of course as a female, I wouldn't want it! No way! Eew...

I haven't known any man who complained when their female boss or coworkers touches them. But I know some man who was humiliated, downed, disrespected, when a GAY superior tried to molest him. And that situation of course is not funny, knowing that the victim was just a teenager harassed by a talent manager, producer, who holds a position of power in the industry.


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## A Little Bit of Cheeze (Apr 21, 2012)

Hmm.... I like this thread. 

The funny thing is, it's not even the men that entail these 'good' qualities in me (yeah, they still expect it, though) but the women. (It's so weird in my family-- :dry. I used to have this whole notion in my head that _all guys are assholes and they have no respect for women. _blah blah blah. Now I realize that it wasn't men that I was angry at, it was just the men I knew (I couldn't impose their image on the nice guys I knew). _That _was when I realized I wasn't a misandronist, but a misanthrope- I hate all people (mostly because everybody was 'stupid' and didn't fit into my master plan). 
:tongue:

And _that _was just me being immature and forming bad judgements in my head, with too much time too think, and too little true experience. I don't hate people as much as I don't really care for them in general. 

It was just a weird process of going through being a teenager, I guess. :laughing:


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