# Why don't women say what they really mean and do some men do this too?



## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

Many men know that women are terrible about saying what they really mean or think. Men with a few years experience around women have figured out some of the key words to watch for. I was wondering, are there some men that do this too? My husband pretty much says exactly what he means. If he says he is fine that is what he means,

*I thought it would be fun to look at some of the things women say but actually don't mean that drive guys crazy. My husband says we speak in code and men have to learn to decipher it. *

I'll start off with a little story that opened my husbands eyes to the fact that women don't always say what they mean.

My husband and I married shortly after graduating from high school so we weren't exactly mature or knowledgeable about the opposite sex. Shortly after we were married he said something that hurt my feelings. He could tell that he offended me and he said I'm sorry are we okay now? I said I am* fine! *He said good and went to sleep. I was so mad, how dare he, couldn't he tell I wasn't fine. I was so upset that I made myself a pallet bed on the floor and laid there on the cold hard floor and felt sorry for myself for hours. It was pretty uncomfortable I might add.

When my husband woke up the next morning and saw that I wasn't in bed with him but was laying on the floor he was completely puzzled. He said what is going on? To which I said you should know? He said well obviously I don't or I wouldn't be asking. When I explained what the issue was he said but you said we were fine. I said couldn't you tell it wasn't really fine? He then said how I am suppose know that fine is not fine? We laugh about this now. He knows that when a woman says fine it actually means dig a little deeper and show me you really care. I guess we need to make a guide book for guys.

Would love to hear other funny little stories about the strange way we women sometimes communicate. Also are there some guys that do this or is this just a women thing? Also, any thoughts as to why we women do this? Why don't we just say what we mean instead of giving the men in our lives puzzles to solve? 

Or if you just want to leave a comment or even vent about when she says this she really means........

Thread locked as per OP's request


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Why is this specific to women? Your story just reflects that _you_ don't say what you mean.


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

Doll said:


> Why is this specific to women? Your story just reflects that _you_ don't say what you mean.


What.....Don't mean to exclude the guys. Did ask in the last paragraph of OP do some men do this? I think women do this more than men but I would love hear stories about both. If you know of guys who do this and want to share go for it. Love to hear about it.


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## Bugs (May 13, 2014)




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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

@jamaix: 

.... that and....


The sad stuff of reality is, the one who doesn't know how to say or ask for things, is the one who looses, and makes other people around lose too, even if they are willing to care and give this person what she needs/wants.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

jamaix said:


> What.....Don't mean to exclude the guys. Did ask in the last paragraph of OP do some men do this? I think women do this more than men but I would love hear stories about both. If you know of guys who do this and want to share go for it. Love to hear about it.


Of course men do this. 

What is true is that it is more _culturally acceptable _for women to be passive-aggressive than it is for men. This is why women would do it more than men, but it isn't an inherent trait that we're born with. Men are expected to be honest and to the point and be admired for it; if women act that way they're considered bitches. On the other end, men would feel pressured to be blunt otherwise they might be accused of being weak. 

But my point is: I think both men and women do this, but women would do it more because they don't want to be seen negatively, and men would do it less for the same reason.


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## Mr. Meepers (May 31, 2012)

I don't think all women do this and sure men do it too. Besides there is a lot more to communication than what you say, there is also how you say it. For instance a gentle "I'm fine" is vastly different that an angry/annoyed "I'm fine". And it sounds like your husband heard what you said, but he did not listen to how you said it and/or the events that transpired before hand. Also, am I correct in assuming "I'm fine" wa actually meant "I am so annoyed right now and I don't want to talk about this anymore and/or I want some space"? 

Anyway, I think everyone does this to some extent, just that some do it a lot more than others, but as I said, there is a lot more to communication than just the words that are used


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

To be honest, nothing drives me crazier than when someone doesn't say what they really mean. I mean, being unable to form thoughts into coherent words is one thing but saying something like, "I'm fine." when they're not drives me nutters. :angry:

I'm sure there're guys who also do this and it wouldn't make me any less exasperated.

I do agree that listening, especially for implicit language and tone is important though and something a lot of guys and a fair number of women could improve on.


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

Bugs said:


>



Love this one. I have seen it before and as silly as it seems there is actually a lot of truth to this. I think in this instance it illustrates that men like to fix it and women like to talk about it.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

-comment redacted-

interesting read.


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

Lady O.W. Bro said:


> -comment redacted-


I only used my personal story to illustrate my point. I have heard enough complaints about this to know I am certainly not the only woman who has done this. I am older now and don't do it as much now and my husband is also much better at reading body language and tone. I just think it is interesting that people do this and as noted previously I think women are probably worse about it.

What is really intriguing to me is why do women(and if applicable men) do this? Logic would dictate just say what you mean.
Plus it makes for some funny and sometimes aggravating communication stories between men and women.


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## IncoherentBabbler (Oct 21, 2013)

If I say "I'm fine" but don't mean it, I still want the other person to behave as though I do mean it - ie I'll try to be convincing. That's the point. I know that the normal response to me claiming I'm okay is for them to act as though everything is... okay. I'm pretty sure this is how most guys think and expect others to behave. Could be wrong though.


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## reeses786 (Apr 19, 2013)

"A woman's heart is an ocean of secrets." -Titanic


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## Arclight (Feb 10, 2010)

What a perfect opportunity to bring MBTI into the equation. This is a typology site after all and this topic goes well beyond gender but can be explained more objectively with MBTI..
What we are encountering is different communication styles and in this case specifically we meet _direct and indirect speak_. 
As a general rule females tend to prefer indirect and males tend to prefer direct. But as we know MBTI crosses any gender boundaries.
Research into your type should tell you which style you prefer and more research into other types will tell you what style they prefer.
The benefit of this research would be enhanced communication skills.

"Are you hungry?" Says the indirect style.. The direct style answers.."Not at all" .. Awhile later it becomes apparent that Indirect is getting snappy and short.. Direct person is confounded and eventually asks "What's wrong?" 
Indirect blares back.. " I told you was hungry hours ago.." Direct person says "Whoa.. When? You never said you were hungry. Le WTF?" 

Knowing if the other prefers direct or indirect communication and knowing your own preference could avoid situations like the one above. 

One of the best moves I ever made was to learn the difference and tailor my own communication style to suit the situation. 

Instead I get this.. "Are you hungry?" the correct answer is.. Maybe you aren't hungry.. But your response goes like this.. "I am not really .. _How about you?"_ Indirect says "I am feeling a bit peckish.. But if you are not hungry maybe we can eat something in say an hour?" (Direct person will appreciate the scheduling of things) Later, although indirect person had to endure another hour of feeling hungry and direct person is eating a bit sooner than he/she might have otherwise, they didn't get pissed off at each other and that very same day they went home together and had mind blowing sex .. _All because they knew how to communicate with each other_.
You should try it.


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

changos said:


> The sad stuff of reality is, the one who doesn't know how to say or ask for things, is the one who looses, and makes other people around lose too, even if they are willing to care and give this person what she needs/wants.


So true. Definitely illustrated by my little story. When my husband asked if we were okay I should have said no. Then we would have talked about it some more and worked it out. I would not have spent the entire night mad at him laying on the hard floor and he would not have woke up in the morning alarmed to see that I was so upset that I didn't even want to sleep in the same bed with him. He was willing to care but he was not a mind reader. It was a lose lose scenario.

Real straight forward communication is the key. For some reason women tend to have a hard time saying exactly what they mean. Perhaps some men too.

My husband and I have been married long enough now that he just looks at me and says okay what is really going on here?


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

Mr. Meepers said:


> I don't think all women do this and sure men do it too. Besides there is a lot more to communication than what you say, there is also how you say it. For instance a gentle "I'm fine" is vastly different that an angry/annoyed "I'm fine". And it sounds like your husband heard what you said, but he did not listen to how you said it and/or the events that transpired before hand. Also, am I correct in assuming "I'm fine" wa actually meant "I am so annoyed right now and I don't want to talk about this anymore and/or I want some space"?
> 
> Anyway, I think everyone does this to some extent, just that some do it a lot more than others, but as I said, there is a lot more to communication than just the words that are used


It has been some time ago so I can't really say what my tone was but I don't recall using an angry tone. I do know that I definitely didn't want space though. What I do remember thinking is well he apologized so I should just move on what more can he do. Unfortunately I was still feeling hurt. Sound silly now but it was many years ago. I wish I could say I never do this anymore but occasionally I do similar things. Major difference now is my husband is pretty good at reading body language and picking up on key words. I hear men complaining about women saying one thing and meaning another all the time. 
Strange, why do we do it? If we could just say what we mean and mean what we say.


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## Mr. Meepers (May 31, 2012)

jamaix said:


> It has been some time ago so I can't really say what my tone was but I don't recall using an angry tone. I do know that I definitely didn't want space though. What I do remember thinking is well he apologized so I should just move on what more can he do. Unfortunately I was still feeling hurt. Sound silly now but it was many years ago. I wish I could say I never do this anymore but occasionally I do similar things. Major difference now is my husband is pretty good at reading body language and picking up on key words. I hear men complaining about women saying one thing and meaning another all the time. Strange, why do we do it?


Would it be better to say that you just wanted to be comforted and held? To be honest, it is hard to guess without being there. I know I like to say things "kindly" because I don't want to hurt people's feelings or seem demanding. I suppose sometimes people want their partner to be on the same wavelength without saying anything. But, in your individual case, I don't know why you do it.


That being said, there is an interesting video on indirect language that is interesting. I'm not sure it is related, but who knows, it might be.


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

Mr. Meepers said:


> That being said, there is an interesting video on indirect language that is interesting. I'm not sure it is related, but who knows, it might be.


Did you see the post #14 by @*Arclight 

*He also mentions direct and indirect communication. Interesting theory and there is probably something to it. 

Would love to hear from others that do this or have people in their life that tend to communicate like this. Why do you think you or someone else does this?

Found the following chart. Kind of funny but probably also annoying to those who don't do this. Most of this would probably be considered indirect communication.

What women say and what they really mean...


We needI wantIt's your decisionThe correct decision should be obvious by nowDo what you wantYou'll pay for this laterWe need to talkI need to complainSure...go aheadI don't want you to.I'm not upsetOf course I'm upset, you moron.You're...so manlyYou need a shave and you sweat a lot.You're certainly attentive tonight.Is sex all you ever think about?I'm not emotional! And I'm not overreacting!I'm on my period. Be romantic, turn out the lights.I have flabby thighs.Hang the picture thereNo, I mean hang it there!I heard a noiseI noticed you were almost asleep.Do you love me?I'm going to ask for something expensive.How much do you love me?I did something today you're really not going to like..I'll be ready in a minute.Kick off your shoes and find a good game on T.V.Is my butt fat?Tell me I'm beautiful.You have to learn to communicate.Just agree with me.Are you listening to me!?[Too late, you're dead.]

As I was thinking about this I just realized that when I said my husband pretty much says exactly what he means there are exceptions. For example: When he says, "What are your plans for this evening?" He's dropping a hint but not actually saying why he is asking. I would say that qualifies as indirect communication.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

Heres a simple explanation.

Those who don't say what they mean are generally not assertive so they would rather hint or beat around the bush to avoid direct confrontation.

In addition to this, sometimes people know that they shouldn't say x in circumstance y i.e I chipped a nail, the person beside me broke a finger, I know I can't complain about my nail because person with broken finger is clearly in need of more attention so one might say "I'm fine" when in actual fact that person also wants attention to the broken nail etc...


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## Aquamarine (Jul 24, 2011)

Actually, I think people who do this just want to put on a tough front to avoid embarrassment, when inwardly they want someone to pay attention to them. However it will just drive everyone around them crazy because nobody can read another's minds.


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## IncoherentBabbler (Oct 21, 2013)

jamaix said:


> Did you see the post #14 by @*Arclight
> 
> *He also mentions direct and indirect communication. Interesting theory and there is probably something to it.
> 
> ...


Ok, I already knew this but your post brought it up: For many women, every day is opposite day. Luckily tomboys don't think this way.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

Indirect communication is an awful thing to put on someone's shoulders, and I speak from the point of view of an indirect communicator.

If someone doesn't understand my feelings, it's not their fault. The whole "what women say, and what they mean" thing is putting unfair expectations on men to be mind-readers, which nobody can do. Some people are more astute than others at reading signals and acting on them, but no one can read minds.

The whole thing not only paints women as passive-aggressive, it makes it okay for men to simply assume women's experiences, and that's a dangerous thing. It allows men to talk over women, and dismiss them as hormonal when they're angry.


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## Euclid (Mar 20, 2014)

For a man usually the shortest path between two points is a straight line. Women however live in a non-Euclidean world. It's biological. Women have evolved with brains that are suited for diplomacy hence "tend and befriend" response to stress, rather than "fight or flight".


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Women are socialized with lots of rules in mind: don't be too "bossy" or curt, or aggressive. Its not "ladylike." And I know we aren't still living in the victorian era but a lot of this still exists. A lot of behaviour thats considered normal for males is considered rude for females - being assertive for example. 

Of course you see a lot of women who go against the cultural conditioning - so its obviously not biology, just like plenty of men fit the more feminine role of being less direct, more gentle in their approach. 

I think its really stupid when some men generalize and complain that women "don't say what they mean" because usually its the same sexist guys who wouldn't like it if a woman actually just did say what she meant. They sometimes have a bitterness about women anyway, and _look for reasons to complain_. My dad would do that, make idiotic piggish comments like "haahaa wimmin, so bad at directions" when in fact, I was better than he was at most things because our intelligence levels were so disparate. He still had it stuck in his pig-head, even when I got something right and he got it wrong, that he was right by default, being a man.

The generalizations are a redflag, imo - shows the bitterness if hes trying to put them all in a box as some kind of enemy or rival.


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

Torai said:


> The whole thing not only paints women as passive-aggressive, it makes it okay for men to simply assume women's experiences, and that's a dangerous thing. It allows men to talk over women, and dismiss them as hormonal when they're angry.


A wise man will never dismiss it as hormonal. That is unfortunately sometimes used to avoid discussing awkward or uncomfortable events but it is often a "red herring".

Fortunately my husband is too smart to throw out the hormonal accusations.

Can't speak for everyone who occasionally communicates indirectly but it is not a matter of being passive aggressive(hostility) for me hardly ever.

Also, the chart what women say and what they mean was really just meant to be funny (*light hearted humor*) I wasn't trying to suggest that all women do this and men just need to figure it out. Some women do this and some don't. Besides men have their idiosyncrasies as well.



_*Really this thread wasn't meant to be taken too seriously it was meant to be fun. "If we can't laugh at ourselves who can we laugh at." We are all imperfect and do things that drive each other crazy at times.*
_



Something I later reflected upon after starting the thread. See post comment #18 (quoting myself) "As I was thinking about this I just realized that when I said my husband pretty much says exactly what he means there are exceptions. For example: When he says, "What are your plans for this evening?" He's dropping a hint but not actually saying why he is asking. I would say that qualifies as indirect communication."


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## Euclid (Mar 20, 2014)

Torai said:


> Indirect communication is an awful thing to put on someone's shoulders, and I speak from the point of view of an indirect communicator.
> 
> If someone doesn't understand my feelings, it's not their fault. The whole "what women say, and what they mean" thing is putting unfair expectations on men to be mind-readers, which nobody can do. Some people are more astute than others at reading signals and acting on them, but no one can read minds.
> 
> The whole thing not only paints women as passive-aggressive, it makes it okay for men to simply assume women's experiences, and that's a dangerous thing. It allows men to talk over women, and dismiss them as hormonal when they're angry.


I don't think indirect communication should be confused with passive aggressiveness, although it may have such uses. In the positive sense, indirect communication is a form of politeness. I generally tend to communicate directly but I can understand indirect communication reasonably well. I would definitively have understood @jamaix in her situation but it is another thing how I respond. In a polite context, I tend to respond with what is indirectly requested, but in a passive aggressive context I tend to either ignore or do something contrary to what is requested, because I don't like being manipulated. 

The thing is, women want to be shown that they are cared for in a relationship and so they give you an opportunity to show that through indirect communication. If she says she is freezing and you offer her your coat, she will feel cared for. If she makes a direct request, then it makes it more like a business transaction. It's not something that can be expected as a right but it is none the less a virtue in that it is a glue that stabilizes a relationship.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

Very little REALLY know how intjs can be in this regard. Some can reconstruct whole conversations and present evidence of what happened, others can build and replicate the same situation and present it to the "wife/GF" without her noticing it only to get a response like "_your friend is a fucking idiot_" and then you say, it's you, you did this one year ago. DENIAL, a lot of women can support other women if they don't know them, but if they do know her and the details... they can't judge pretty hardly what's been said and done failing to see the things they do themselves.

Some men try to tell their women the problem but about someone else (we call this in my country telling X to Mary so Jenny can get it) and it's amazing how many fail to see it's about them.


There is more about this, you can count on the forum the amount of men (including myself) who give credit to women stories and we say "you are right, get out of there, etc", while you can count with just 4 fingers (not more, difficult to say) the same pc female members who give credit to men, trust me it's pretty evident once you search for it. Most will trow rocks without even read past the title and use the same repetitive words.


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## theflame (Apr 12, 2014)

For me...In the past, some guys have come off as they just only want sex from me when they really wanted a relationship with me. To me, it didn't sound like someone wanted to date me when he said he wanted to fuck me every chance he got. If that was the case, they shouldn't be talking like they just wanted to screw around. That gives off the wrong impression. I always say what I mean. It eliminates confusion. However, people generalize and say everyone thinks the same way and don't treat people like individuals so they get rejected.


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

Euclid said:


> I don't think indirect communication should be confused with passive aggressiveness, although it may have such uses. In the positive sense, indirect communication is a form of politeness. I generally tend to communicate directly but I can understand indirect communication reasonably well. I would definitively have understood @_jamaix_ in her situation but it is another thing how I respond. In a polite context, I tend to respond with what is indirectly requested, but in a passive aggressive context I tend to either ignore or do something contrary to what is requested, because I don't like being manipulated.
> 
> *The thing is, women want to be shown that they are cared for in a relationship and so they give you an opportunity to show that through indirect communication. If she says she is freezing and you offer her your coat, she will feel cared for.* If she makes a direct request, then it makes it more like a business transaction. It's not something that can be expected as a right but it is none the less a virtue in that it is a glue that stabilizes a relationship.


I like your description and I think it is probably pretty accurate for most. I like to analyze things a lot (probably too much) and I find the ways men and women communicate to be interesting and different. I am not PC, I do think we are different and I think it is beneficial to figure out how to understand one another. Especially since we must all live together and it is much better to live in harmony than with suspicion and distrust. When looking at some of the comments posted I can clearly see suspicion and distrust. I think this is largely due to the fact that men/women often misunderstand each other. Knowledge is the key to improved relationships.

In my OP I gave as an illustration the story of a misunderstanding between my husband and I early in our marriage, I think your comment (that I highlighted above) hits the nail on the head. I didn't internalize this at the time but I was hurt and my logic said well he said he is sorry and that should be enough. However, I was still hurting emotionally and I needed to talk about it. I didn't want to demand that we talk about it, I didn't want to seem petty. I wanted him to demonstrate that he cared. Now that I am older I also realize that my expectation that he figure it out wasn't entirely fair. My husband is a smart guy and doesn't miss this kind of thing very often now but we were newlyweds then. As I have matured, I am also better about saying I need to talk about this.

I agree with you that indirect communication and passive aggressive communication are not the same. When I think of passive aggressive I think of thinly veiled hostility and anger. I do think indirect can be passive aggressive but not usually. In my story in the OP it was definitely not passive aggressive. 

I recently read a book that dealt with learning to understand why men/women say and do things in particular ways. The book was based upon religious perspective but I think a lot of what they had to say fits whether religious or not. The book was based upon surveys of religious and non-religious people. There are patterns that each sex tends to follow. Although, as with all things there are deviations.

After reading the book I was able to understand some of the things my husband does and says much better. We each read the book as it was applicable to both men and women.

For example: When I asked my husband a question he often took a very long time to answer or sometimes didn't seem to respond. I often took his lack of an immediate response to mean he wasn't really listening to me or he didn't really care to discuss it. I would often say are you ignoring me? Why don't you listen to me? After educating myself a little more on communication styles of men I found out he wasn't ignoring me, he just didn't want to give me a careless or poorly thought out answer. What was happening was that he was running different answers through his mind and evaluating various responses and where each of those might eventually lead. He doesn't answer quickly because he wants to get it right. This is not to say that women who often answer more quickly don't want to get it right it is just acknowledging the different ways of processing questions. Not trying to stereotype, because of course there are always variations, but this is just a communication style difference that is often more observable in men.


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

I have a strong aversion to indirect communication and ambiguity. 

If I say it, I mean it. If I didn't say it, don't try to infer something that isn't there.

I treat others this way and I appreciate it when they speak their mind in a similar fashion.

In my mind, indirect communication is just head games.

EDIT: And you are right; the tendency is for women to communicate in this manner and for men to be more direct. Of course, that isn't always the case, but it is the tendency. This can be seen in MBTI, as more women are feelers (who communicate to connect) and more men are thinkers ( who communicate to exchange information).


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

Arclight said:


> As a general rule females tend to prefer indirect and males tend to prefer direct. But as we know MBTI crosses any gender boundaries.
> Research into your type should tell you which style you prefer and more research into other types will tell you what style they prefer.
> The benefit of this research would be enhanced communication skills.


Not really all that familiar with MBTI. Not even sure I have my personality typed correctly. Took several different free online test and usually come up with ISTJ. I did come up with INTP once and ISTP once. ISTJ description comes the closest. All 3 types have some things I can't relate to but ISTJ comes the closest. I shall have to educate myself on MBTI. 

I definitely think you are right about females preferring indirect and males direct. I enjoy reading the different thoughts and ideas on why that is. Although I am sometimes guilty of being indirect I am also occasionally guilty of being too direct. I can't begin to say how many times I have typed up a response to a post and had to go back and soften it up a bit.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

l was making a poor attempt at humor with my response.

ln seriousness, l don't _always_ say what l mean but l haven't adopted that purposeful emotional manipulation thing. ls a person really supposed to feel gratified in knowing that they aren't communicating effectively?

l gather the point is that as women, we shouldn't 'have' to. Well, it feels like setting myself up in a position to be catered to rather than spoken to directly. l don't expect people to take me seriously if they feel like hey are only allowed to tell me what l want to hear.

*lt also brings to mind for me, the dynamic of the slightly older crowd. Not saying no young women do this, but it reminds of 40 & 50 somethings stuck in a marriage they both hate rather than young people of either gender*

l associate with people of both genders who have a similar communication style to myself, to view 'bluntness' as a male trait only creates a further divide, l meet plenty of men who have more tact than some women who _think_ they're acting like men.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

It takes a while to learn the "language" of women. Has he gotten better at it? 

Woman dictionary.


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## stormgirl (May 21, 2013)

tanstaafl28 said:


> It takes a while to learn the "language" of women. Has he gotten better at it?
> 
> Woman dictionary.


That is so true! Thank you for making me laugh out loud. :laughing:


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## richardbutt (May 31, 2014)

The quality of being indirect lies in being NF (or at least the POTENTIAL to be indirect and expect others to understand you - I'm an NF and I'm quite direct) while being direct lies in being an ST. This stereotype exists because folks tend to stereotype women as NF and men as ST. However, it's obvious enough just from browsing this site that there are quite a few NF men and ST women out there.

A lot of gendered stereotypes can be explained by the existence of the cognitive functions. I don't see why we should continue to perpetuate them as gendered on a site where we are all more or less educated on them.


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

IncoherentBabbler said:


> If I say "I'm fine" but don't mean it, I still want the other person to behave as though I do mean it - ie I'll try to be convincing. That's the point. I know that the normal response to me claiming I'm okay is for them to act as though everything is... okay. I'm pretty sure this is how most guys think and expect others to behave. Could be wrong though.


I think you are probably correct. I think some of this is because men don't like to discuss hurt feelings, etc. That is generally true of my husband. He prefers to lick his wounds privately. Nothing worse to him than sitting around talking about how he feels.


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

changos said:


> There is more about this, you can count on the forum the amount of men (including myself) who give credit to women stories and we say "you are right, get out of there, etc", while you can count with just 4 fingers (not more, difficult to say) the same pc female members who give credit to men, trust me it's pretty evident once you search for it. Most will trow rocks without even read past the title and use the same repetitive words.


I am not sure I am completely getting your point but let me give it a shot. 

I am fairly new to PerC and have only been posting threads for about a month. I have noticed that there are some females who seem to be scouring threads looking for something to feel slighted or angry about. (a few males as well, but the females have outnumbered them so far) This thread topic for example, seemed to rub a few females and maybe one or two males the wrong way. I think they want to make the point that it isn't only females who do this. (don't say what they mean) However, I never said that males didn't do this. In fact I addressed the idea that there may be some who do and invited comments about it in the OP. I did mention that I believe females do this more than males. That is merely my opinion based upon my personal observations and the fact that I am a female and I know that sometimes I do this. I can only speak from the perspective of a female.

I mostly meant for this thread to be humorous and maybe to hear some pros and cons for this type of communication. I think it is good to be able to laugh at ourselves sometimes. This thread has yielded some interesting comments and observations and several(not all) helpful ones have come from males. I have actually learned some logical reasons about why females and the occasional male communicates this way and some opinions about why they shouldn't do so. A few humorous post and that is fine. Then there are the defensive posters making claims that it is due to the way females are taught to behave. So to sum up, I think you are saying that some of the males are more willing to offer suggestions/advice whereas the females are more concerned about being politically correct and that they are poised and ready to sling arrows at any supposed slight. Is this what you are getting at? Feel free to correct.


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

richardbutt said:


> The quality of being indirect lies in being NF (or at least the POTENTIAL to be indirect and expect others to understand you - I'm an NF and I'm quite direct) while being direct lies in being an ST. This stereotype exists because folks tend to stereotype women as NF and men as ST. However, it's obvious enough just from browsing this site that there are quite a few NF men and ST women out there.
> 
> A lot of gendered stereotypes can be explained by the existence of the cognitive functions. I don't see why we should continue to perpetuate them as gendered on a site where we are all more or less educated on them.


Sorry not trying to perpetuate anything just noting what I actually see. While I believe personality type does play a role in it, there are observable gender differences and patterns. That doesn't mean all women or all men behave in a particular way it just means that an observable number do. 

Based upon taking several personality test I am one of those ST women you mention. I do things that I observe other women doing but I am also very different from many women. For one thing, I often have troubles communicating and relating to other women. I am a SAHM mom currently but when I was in the work force most of those I spent time hanging with and talking to where men. Why....because too many of the women where back stabbers and gossips and I don't like drama. I know it is not PC to say that but I am basing it on what I experienced. 

I was a victim of backstabbing after I was promoted into a position of authority over some who were older than me and had been there longer. I was even accused of discriminating against a women because she felt I showed preference to a male employee when giving hours. Never mind the fact that he was a much better worker, more flexible and required a whole lot less supervision. I gave hours based upon merit and not gender. I am not trying to promote a stereotype I am merely stating what I personally experienced. Now, I realize that does not mean all women are that way or that all men will be dependable or even a better worker. That is just what I personally experienced. 

This is the part of an ISTJ personality that I can really relate to
*"People with this personality type are very direct; for them, the truth is always far more important than sensitivity." *

There are benefits to speaking direct and disadvantages. For one, you won't win many popularity contest being this way. I do often try to soften up my comments a bit which is why I make so many edits to my post. So in advance it is not my intention to offend but I do tend to call it like I see it and I do see many women not saying exactly what they mean. Myself included on occasion. ............yes, some men do this too

I really think that sometimes we all take everything way too seriously. Myself included.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

jamaix said:


> I am not sure I am completely getting your point but let me give it a shot.
> 
> I am fairly new to PerC and have only been posting threads for about a month. I have noticed that there are some females who seem to be scouring threads looking for something to feel slighted or angry about. (a few males as well, but the females have outnumbered them so far) This thread topic for example, seemed to rub a few females and maybe one or two males the wrong way. I think they want to make the point that it isn't only females who do this. (don't say what they mean) However, I never said that males didn't do this. In fact I addressed the idea that there may be some who do and invited comments about it in the OP. I did mention that I believe females do this more than males. That is merely my opinion based upon my personal observations and the fact that I am a female and I know that sometimes I do this. I can only speak from the perspective of a female.
> 
> I mostly meant for this thread to be humorous and maybe to hear some pros and cons for this type of communication. I think it is good to be able to laugh at ourselves sometimes. This thread has yielded some interesting comments and observations and several(not all) helpful ones have come from males. I have actually learned some logical reasons about why females and the occasional male communicates this way and some opinions about why they shouldn't do so. A few humorous post and that is fine. Then there are the defensive posters making claims that it is due to the way females are taught to behave. So to sum up, I think you are saying that some of the males are more willing to offer suggestions/advice whereas the females are more concerned about being politically correct and that they are poised and ready to sling arrows at any supposed slight. Is this what you are getting at? Feel free to correct.


Exactly, you are 100% right and I agree with you. Your wording/style comes as clear as water. I also think one can take threads as something to learn about, to do something about it, to try to understand the other persons and also to laugh about ourselves, but NOT to come and trow stones: pig, jerk, idiot, etc and leave. There are no even opinions there.


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

As a person who is known for being a bit 'blunt' I'd have to ask why anyone doesn't say what they mean. It's not just women who do this.


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

Yeah, most women pretty much speak an alien language to me... Nothing is what it truly means... Too bad I don't like guys. :sad: I still have hopes that someday I will meet a woman who speaks the language of men.


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## Snakecharmer (Oct 26, 2010)

jamaix said:


> Found the following chart. Kind of funny but probably also annoying to those who don't do this. Most of this would probably be considered indirect communication.
> 
> What women say and what they really mean...
> 
> ...


I'm a female and I'm direct. I can't stand passive-aggressive communication or hinting.

Just say what you want, damn it. Lol


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

When I started this thread I really had not labeled this type of communicating (not spelling out what you mean) as indirect communication. But it definitely fits.. 

After reading a lot of comments, and I think unfortunately offending a few (it was not intentional) I have concluded that *we all use some of both types of communication. Direct and indirect.*

Not politically correct to say this but I still think women tend to use indirect more frequently and men direct. Of course there are some variations on this. Yes, some women tend to be direct and some men tend to be indirect.

I really think the key is for each type of communicator to learn to accommodate the other a little more. Direct communicators could learn to watch and listen for visual or tone clues. Indirect communicators need to understand that not everyone can pick up on little nuances and try to be more direct. Sort of like the 16 different personality types. Or perhaps understanding the difference between introvert and extrovert. Sometimes introverts are annoyed by extroverts and vice versa. Seems like this is the case with direct and indirect. Understanding the differences may be the key.


*I think direct communicators view those who are indirect as being vague, manipulative, passive aggressive, etc.

I think indirect communicators view those who are direct as pushy, rude, and insensitive, etc.


*

Below is a bit of information I copied and pasted from a website about the two communication styles. http://www.smallplanetstudio.com/2010/02/17/indirect-direct-communication-styles/

_Direct communication_ is when the meaning of the message is communicated mainly via words.
_Indirect communication_is when meaning is not only in the words, but mainly in the surrounding context of a conversation. In other words, somebody who is indirect will leave it up to the listener to fill in the blanks and make out the meaning by correctly reading the contextual clues (e.g. non-verbal communication, status and/or age of people involved in the conversation, attire, etc.).
*"No matter how much we read about indirect communication, it is virtually impossible for a direct person to fully understand the complexity of indirectness until we’ve been immersed in it. " 

*The above statement may explain the problem and why it is so annoying to direct communicators.*


*


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

Diligent Procrastinator said:


> Yeah, most women pretty much speak an alien language to me... Nothing is what it truly means... Too bad I don't like guys. :sad: I still have hopes that someday I will meet a woman who speaks the *language of men*.


It depends, I know some get easily offended and invest useless amount on twisting things (I mean whatever we say they will still get offended... if they want to) 

"_language of men_" when the computer passes the turing test (I read today one just finally did) then it will be about having one computer passing the women test. Are you ok? "yes" ok shutting down, see you tomorrow. / Here are the best jokes of 2014 (but I wanted the dramas) you said jokes (no I didn't) ok shutting down see you tomorrow. But...

see you tomorrow!


I said this a few times in the past, I don't have this as a rule (recording conversations), nope. My work demands very precise info so, I have this enable on my phone by default, it's been amazing. I had arguments by phone, useless arguments and then "you said I said" games. Easy, turn on, unlock screen, find, play. Result? "shit... I did say that... but I meant..." sorry, words have a reason to exist and adults must be responsible for what they say. I had heated arguments where hitting play did the job and there was no further discussion, I even got some "sorry" words. Me? I'm intj you know, we eve reconstruct conversations sometimes...


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## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

If you want to be mysterious and run your life on subtext, it should come as no surprise to you that many people will not bother to read into your histrionics.

To simultaneously engage in deception (synonymous with lack of verbal clarity) and have the expectation that others will understand and see through your deception (even if they care deeply) is a self important nightmare of delusion. 

What if you are the element in your pairing that is supposed to track the non-verbal subtext? What if you are the one responsible for training your partner to understand that world, that skill, so that they can function in it for the betterment of you both including within the interpersonal relationship? What if you turn that level of 'reading into the mystery' requirement on yourself (after all you are a self-styled ace of it right)?


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

series0 said:


> If you want to be mysterious and run your life on subtext, it should come as no surprise to you that many people will not bother to read into your histrionics.
> 
> To simultaneously engage in deception (synonymous with lack of verbal clarity) and have the expectation that others will understand and see through your deception (even if they care deeply) is a self important nightmare of delusion.
> 
> What if you are the element in your pairing that is supposed to track the non-verbal subtext? What if you are the one responsible for training your partner to understand that world, that skill, so that they can function in it for the betterment of you both including within the interpersonal relationship? What if you turn that level of 'reading into the mystery' requirement on yourself (after all you are a self-styled ace of it right)?



I summed up my opinion in post #43. I think it somewhat comes down to understanding that we are all different including the ways in which we communicate. Also, as I mentioned previously I think everyone whether they realize it or not uses both types of communication from time to time. Obviously some are primarily direct communicators while others are indirect. 

I also believe those who communicate more directly are sometimes more assertive and confident than those who communicate indirectly and may be lacking in confidence and are non-assertive. In the case of a non direct communicator it may even be that their SO has displayed impatience with them in the past and they as a result have been trained to communicate indirectly in order to deflect or minimize anger or frustration that may come their way. For example: how did he/she react to direct statements in the past that they may not have liked? If the response was unfavorable many will adapt to avoid the conflict.

I personally don't think indirect communicators should be described with these type of words ...engaging in deception, lacking verbal clarity, etc. It is describing someone lacking in character and ascribing to them bad motives. Might that be the case? sometimes but not usually

Nor would I describe those who are direct communicators with these type of words.....pushy, insensitive, uncaring. This is describing a callous insensitive thoughtless person. Might that be the case? sometimes but not usually

Maybe it helps to think of it this way. When the indirect communicator(I/C) gives a response that the direct communicator(D/C) thinks is vague it may actually mean that the I/C is giving the other person the opportunity to ignore or to show that they care by pursuing further. Because they are non-assertive they don't wish to seem pushy so they give the D/C an option to ignore.

I don't like passive aggressive communication but it is not the same things as indirect communication. For the most part I personally prefer direct communication but I have used both.

I think it is sometimes easier to think our way of doing things is the right way because we understand it better. I know that is often true of me.


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## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

jamaix said:


> Maybe it helps to think of it this way. When the indirect communicator(I/C) gives a response that the direct communicator(D/C) thinks is vague it may actually mean that the I/C is giving the other person the opportunity to ignore or to show that they care by pursuing further. Because they are non-assertive they don't wish to seem pushy so they give the D/C an option to ignore.


Awesome response! 

I agree, but, with the caveat that in the case mentioned in the sub-quote above if you have given the more direct communicator the option to ignore your issue(s) you are supposed to respect their choice and drop it. In my experience this does not happen and resentment builds. This underscores the truth in my original accusation of deception. There are in fact two parties being deceived by the supposed indirect communicator, the other party and yourself. This issue points to a need to exceed your type in all ways as usual in order to grow and be mature. 

Growth means the more direct party has to learn to watch the subtext and demure some. The more indirect party has to gain the spine to be direct and/or let the matter TRULY drop internally.


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

series0 said:


> Growth means the more direct party has to learn to watch the subtext and demure some. The more indirect party has to gain the spine to be direct and/or let the matter TRULY drop internally.


I couldn't agree more. Both need to do some adjusting and accommodating.


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## richardbutt (May 31, 2014)

@jamaix I don't mind folks "calling it like they see it" when it's appropriate but I do have a problem with folks making broad conclusions on enormous, ridiculously diverse subgroups based on personal experience i.e. very limited anecdotal evidence. It's an error in process that I have a problem with here. No singular person is above bias, having a limited scope or above only seeing what they want to see (it's hardly a coincidence that your opinion on gender dovetails so neatly with well-established gendered stereotypes!), myself included.

This is a forum where we are on the whole knowledgeable enough to say "the majority of the men in that workplace were most likely ST" and "those women were most likely NF" - perhaps even statements like "it's possible that, statistically, more women are NF than men." Not "hey I observed these gendered patterns in my workplace so I'm going to make these huge blanket statements about half the planet."

As for an observation you made earlier in the thread, perhaps the reason why more women were offended by your comment than men is because more women have been subjected to this stereotype in a real and harmful way. I can't imagine it'd be pleasant to be upfront and direct and then have to deal with someone who ignores you and instead acts based on what they THINK you "actually mean" on the basis that women tend to obfuscate more than men.


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

richardbutt said:


> @_jamaix_ I don't mind folks "calling it like they see it" when it's appropriate but I do have a problem with folks making broad conclusions on enormous, ridiculously diverse subgroups based on personal experience i.e. very limited anecdotal evidence. It's an error in process that I have a problem with here. No singular person is above bias, having a limited scope or above only seeing what they want to see (it's hardly a coincidence that your opinion on gender dovetails so neatly with well-established gendered stereotypes!), myself included.
> 
> This is a forum where we are on the whole knowledgeable enough to say "the majority of the men in that workplace were most likely ST" and "those women were most likely NF" - perhaps even statements like "it's possible that, statistically, more women are NF than men." Not "hey I observed these gendered patterns in my workplace so I'm going to make *these huge blanket statements* about half the planet."


I suggest you might want to go back and re read what I said. Doing so will dispel the idea that I made a huge blanket statement about half the planet. Please don't misrepresent what I said. 


These are my exact words * " I am not trying to promote a stereotype I am merely stating what I personally experienced. Now, I realize that does not mean all women are that way or that all men will be dependable or even a better worker. That is just what I personally experienced. "*


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

*Normal human version:* Stop trying to be "politically correct", the OP said what's said and it's very, very clear. Let's stick to that, it's clear. There is no need to twist it or to post repetitive opinions stating what it's already clear in the op. Makes no sense.

*Complement*: threads can get filled with ugly words towards men or passive aggression... several, not 1-2 comments. Why jumping like this here? why threads like these can't be a really, really nice or exact reflection of a thread against (sorry: about) men??? really? 

*Now the average PC post version*:
Ohhhh noooooo not all women do it (that was clear in the op) but hey men also do it (that was also clear in the op), but hey not 100% of women... well 90% doesn't mean every... and 90% being more than 50% sounds ugly so... but it's not a trend, but hey men suck too, that didn't sound good, men suck, why you... me, emmmm like... upside down... HEY this is a gender war hurray!!!! trow your rocks!!!!

*Now seriously,* I don't think it's sane or healthy to find that need of approaching every thread like this, it's stupid, there is always the same trend: you are saying everybody, yes you said it (not you OP), then majority is generalization, you mean it, then people are forced to comment on the opposite side like ohhh yes X percent of men do it, and whites too, black too, yellow too, brown too, then reaching the stupid, not human but supposedly politically correct version and stupid version of:

*everybody does it but let's love each other 
and forget about the trait/problem
*

*In practical matters, yes, seriously:* I love my GF and she does this in sick ways (didn't do in the past), I discussed this with her and ended up in that stupid game of above (everybody, nobody, X%, men do it too) we were trying to solve the "_you do it_" and "_why do you do this_" so I don't care about how many people in another planet do it, I love you and I try to make everything that's on my hands to make you and keep you happy. You are not a child, I don't speak klingon, you and me speak the same language, be clear or this will not work. And stop that face because you FAILED to TRY to prove that "_I do the same_" because you were unable to prove it. Stop.

I don't see anything wrong with the OP, it was very clear, if you are like that then work on it, we don't care, we don't live with you. If you are not like that then enjoy your happy life and stop trowing rocks on "_everybody nobody almost somebody_", ok if you don't do it and other people do it then go marry them, we don't care. If you are not like that then you should be able to enjoy conversations at that level, if you enter a fight you are proving you have problems to stay on focus of the matter, off topic and it looks silly.

Ohhh yes now attack, come, do it.

And... Have a nice day


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

changos said:


> I don't see anything wrong with the OP, it was very clear, if you are like that then work on it, we don't care, we don't live with you. If you are not like that then enjoy your happy life and stop trowing rocks on "_everybody nobody almost somebody_",ok if you don't do it and other people do it then go marry them, we don't care. If you are not like that then you should be able to enjoy conversations at that level, if you enter a fight you are proving you have problems to stay on focus of the matter, off topic and it looks silly.


Thank you! Well said.

It's really puzzling to me why there are 15 thanks to a post making this comment. "*Why is this specific to women? Your story just reflects that *_*you don't say what you mean."*

Why are there that many people thanking someone who made a misleading statement? Did they fail to read the entire OP. This is my exact comment that appears near the end of the OP_
“Would love to hear other funny little stories about the strange way we women sometimes communicate. *Also are there some guys that do this or is this just a women thing?*


_I invited open discussion, do men do this too or is it a woman thing? Of course I posted from the perspective of a woman because that is what I am. I also realize that based upon where you live, life experience etc. not every woman will have the same perspective. I never implied that men never do this or don't do this or that all women do this. One thing I have learned through my limited posting experience is that there are too many who are looking for a fight instead of a discussion. It's hard to learn anything when you have to spend all of your time defending against false and misleading claims about what you said. I think it is also hard for others to learn when they are constantly searching for some kind of perceived slight so that they can tear into you. I will say that some have offered advice, ideas, observations, suggestions and thoughts as to why some communicate directly and others indirectly and to them I say thank you for helping to expand knowledge. Also there are a few funny post and to that I say great it's okay to have a sense of humor. Learning to understand one another and get along better is the point. We don't grow through blaming others and as you say throwing rocks. All that does is encourage everyone to say and think the same thing or face the consequences. In other words we must all become uniform carbon copies of one another. Unfortunately, nobody ever really learns anything other than how to be PC._


_Thanks again Changos I think you summed up how it goes pretty accurately.





Edit: If I were really brave I would post a poll on this topic. Would be interesting and I think it would support what I suspect. Again not facts just perceptions._


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

tanstaafl28 said:


> It takes a while to learn the "language" of women. Has he gotten better at it?
> 
> Woman dictionary.


Thanks for having a sense of humor and for posting the link. Funny!

Yes, he has definitely gotten better at it and I am better about spelling things out. We laugh about it now.


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## fillthevoid (Apr 13, 2014)

I'm sometimes passive-aggressive but I try to avoid it because I hate others doing it to me.


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

I really don't know what you mean. I can't lie, it my mouth lies the rest will not let me lie.
My fiancée is brutally honest too.

Sometimes people do this not to hurt others. Otherwise, it's just a pure annoyance.


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

Whenever I beat around the bush or even act passive aggressively, it's usually because I don't know how to verbalize my feelings.

Telling someone exactly what I want is a level of vulnerability that is challenging for me.


I also take past reactions into account, and if the person is overly sensitive, I start walking on egg shells.

If the person oscillates from gentleness to cruelty, it makes me anxious to allow them any glimpse into my thought life let alone _desires_... But that gentleness phase can be misleading and tempting.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

It makes no sense jamaix.




jamaix said:


> When I started this thread I really had not labeled this type of communicating (not spelling out what you mean) as indirect communication. But it definitely fits..
> 
> After reading a lot of comments, and I think unfortunately offending a few (it was not intentional) I have concluded that *we all use some of both types of communication. Direct and indirect.*
> [...]
> ...


Nope, don't. I mean: check the forum history, that's the good thing about forums you can go and check older discussions. This kind ends up taking one of two roads:

#1. Pushing you to drop it and say "you make no sense" (or something worse) and then they will say you are attacking or you express negative stuff just because people don't agree with your view.

#2. Pushing you to say sorry because you offended people and you used the wrong words and failed to explain because your style was not the right one. Really, it makes no sense when pros (both male and female) have written books about it and then find a forum force trying to push people to think "they" are the ones who got it wrong. I see nothing wrong with your post, as I said it before, people can take it or leave it. One can open a thread like "X smells like poop" and will be ignored, but say this gender based... females will gather, take a view on replicas threads, take a look really how men behave and how women behave in this forum. You will find some saying things that don't bother nobody but they are the minority while other hold on tightly to the 1 or 2 men behaving badly as their "evidence on battle".



jamaix said:


> Thank you! Well said.
> 
> It's really puzzling to me why there are 15 thanks to a post making this comment. "*Why is this specific to women? Your story just reflects that *_*you don't say what you mean."*
> 
> ...


Results:
#1. thread being ignored
#2. Members posting unrelated stuff
#3. People trying to make it a "take a side" thread
#4. People taking offensive postures even if they are not like that
#5. My fav: members joining to fight but they don't even get along, this is the problem that I'm seeing too often, most females here join only around negative stuff pretending it's positive.

have a nice day (and this will not help, you know it won't help me) oh yes here they come.


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

changos said:


> Nope, don't. I mean: check the forum history, that's the good thing about forums you can go and check older discussions. This kind ends up taking one of two roads:
> 
> #1. Pushing you to drop it and say "you make no sense" (or something worse) and then they will say you are attacking or you express negative stuff just because people don't agree with your view.
> 
> #2. Pushing you to say sorry because you offended people and you used the wrong words and failed to explain because your style was not the right one. Really, it makes no sense when pros (both male and female) have written books about it and then find a forum force trying to push people to think "they" are the ones who got it wrong. I see nothing wrong with your post, as I said it before, people can take it or leave it. One can open a thread like "X smells like poop" and will be ignored, but say this gender based... females will gather, take a view on replicas threads, take a look really how men behave and how women behave in this forum. You will find some saying things that don't bother nobody but they are the minority while other hold on tightly to the 1 or 2 men behaving badly as their "evidence on battle".


I think I get what you are saying. Sort of like the story of the Emperor's New Clothes. You state something because it is observable but then crowds gather to tell you "no you are wrong". They verbally beat you up in order to re-educate(brainwash) you so that you can see things the right way(PC). You try to stand your ground but the negativity continues until eventually you are like everyone else saying how nice the emperor's new clothes look. When deep down you really know he has no clothes.


Edit: I am still not politically correct. I still hold to my original thought that women seem to do this(don't say what they mean or if you prefer communicate indirectly) more than men based upon my own experiences and exposures. I have enjoyed hearing thoughts as to why this is and why it is or is not good but it doesn't change my opinion that women do this more than men. I agree with changos there is a temptation to fall in line so as not to face lots of criticism much of which comes from women but not all. I have received several accusations of perpetuating stereotypes but it seems to me that many posters have actually done more to reinforce a stereotype of women than my thread does. For example the idea that women can be catty(towards each other), petty, angry and ultra sensitive. I don't want to fail to mention that I have also received a number of post from people(male & female) who truly want to discuss this, offer thoughts about it, why it annoys them when someone does it, why they do it, general comments, have a sense of humor etc. I have enjoyed those and find them beneficial.


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## Sunn (Mar 12, 2014)

jamaix said:


> I thought it would be fun to look at some of the things women say but actually don't mean that drive guys crazy. *My husband says we speak in code and men have to learn to decipher it.*


If you're saying things you dont mean and get pissed at ME for being confused then we're going to fight.

Second if my wife speaks in code I'm curious why I'm even talking to her, I thought this was a two way street and we got over the social bullshit a long time ago during our honeymoon.


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

I do say what I really mean.

And summing up I will say that I can't help but direct (except when I don't care or am indifferent), I do speak direct tho when its valid to me. I honestly have a hard time understanding speaking round about, subtle, I usually consider such forms as manipulative or orchestrated, staged etc. 

That said I can say that I think a lot of women who are natural predispositioned as assertive get a sort of ball busting labeling (even if they don't nag). Its really kinda shamed to communicate directly as a woman. Its often mocked.

I always take it as a compliment, (that said) I have been shamed from men or playfully mocked for being very direct. It is kind of shamed and demeaned. Is why I think some women would shy away.


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## Sevenblade (May 26, 2014)

As a woman who does say what she means, I find it very frustrating to deal with those who don't, as well as guys who don't. I also don't like hearing how "we women" do this or that. Because presumably, I'm not included in the "we," which implies something, whether it's intended to do so or not. (I also find the "we men" stuff offensive, because not all men are such-and-such, either. I hate group-think, whether it's implied to genders, colors, ethnic groups, or whatever.) I know a part of it is socialization, of course. Which is why it's important to avoid encouraging this behavior, or making it seem somehow appropriate for women. For one thing, making it seem appropriate implies that women don't have the right to voice what's on their minds, have needs of their own, thoughts of their own, etc. If you run into someone who believes they don't, move on. Why shouldn't women say what they mean? As long as it isn't done in a completely outrageous way, it would save everybody a lot of stress.

Bottom line: if you don't make your needs known, they probably won't be met. It's not other people's job in life to read your mind.


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

> > Sevenblade said:
> >
> >
> > > _*As a woman who does say what she means, I find it very frustrating to deal with those who don't, as well as guys who don't. I also don't like hearing how "we women" do this or that. Because presumably, I'm not included in the "we," which implies something, whether it's intended to do so or not. (I also find the "we men" stuff offensive, because not all men are such-and-such, either. I hate group-think, whether it's implied to genders, colors, ethnic groups, or whatever.) *_
> > ...


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## Sevenblade (May 26, 2014)

jamaix said:


> > Sevenblade said:
> >
> >
> > > _*As a woman who does say what she means, I find it very frustrating to deal with those who don't, as well as guys who don't. I also don't like hearing how "we women" do this or that. Because presumably, I'm not included in the "we," which implies something, whether it's intended to do so or not. (I also find the "we men" stuff offensive, because not all men are such-and-such, either. I hate group-think, whether it's implied to genders, colors, ethnic groups, or whatever.) *_
> > ...


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

> Sevenblade said:
> 
> 
> > Sevenblade said:
> ...


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## Madam (Apr 1, 2012)

Yes, I do say what I mean. And when I don't, it's because I don't want people to find out, not because I want them to ''prove'' they care by bugging me forever with their questions and concern.

Speaking of the situation described in the OP - I don't think it's a funny little story. It's childish. This kind of behavior is characteristic of children; and then also immature men and women, as well as those who like to play mind games. It's not a characteristic of women in general.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Since we are on a typology forum, I will say this.
One of the key realization I've had with typology is that gender stereotypes are not real.
Women want to talk about it and men want results?
BS! 
Half the Socionics(MBTI) types are process oriented and the other result.


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

Madam said:


> Speaking of the situation described in the OP - I don't think it's a funny little story.* It's childish*. This *kind of behavior is characteristic of children*; and then also* immature men and women*, as well as *those who like to play mind games*. It's not a characteristic of women in general.Yes, I do say what I mean. And when I don't, it's because I don't want people to find out, not because I want them to ''*prove'' they care by bugging me forever *with their questions and concern.



_Your post is so full of harsh nasty judgmental comments I don't know where to start. My instincts tell me not to waste my time._


The story in my OP is from more than 20 years ago and you weren't there *nor do you know all the facts*! However, you are entitled to your judgmental opinion. My husband was rather immature at the time as well and he would admit that. Although I won't divulge what he did it was a long time ago. I think it is wrong to pass judgement when you have no way of knowing all the details. 

You have offered absolutely nothing of value to this conversation. Did you get on here just to call me immature and accuse me of playing mind games? Perhaps you play mind games but I certainly do not.

You also reveal that you know very little about the different styles of communication. Neither is inherently all good or all bad. Both styles have pros and cons.


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

hornet said:


> Since we are on a typology forum, I will say this.
> One of the key realization I've had with typology is that gender stereotypes are not real.
> Women want to talk about it and men want results?
> BS!
> Half the Socionics(MBTI) types are process oriented and the other result.


Thank you for your opinion offered without personal attacks on the OP.(me)
I will respectfully disagree with you. While it is true that not all women or men act along stereotypical lines there are general patterns that I believe can be observed. I have been around for awhile and have had many years to make these observations. I won't reveal my age but I probably have kids the age of most of the posters on PerC. I have college age kids. 

So, are there some men who want to talk about it? yes but based upon those I know most don't want to. Are there some women who don't want to talk about it but who want results? Yes, but not most that I know. Start a thread on it if you want to see. There are many marriage/relationship books about this. (men want to fix it, women want to talk about it) Obviously there will be some deviations from this. Stereotypes often come about because of observable trends. However there will always be those who break this pattern. Stereotypes are often like satire for example. They contain elements of truth but sometimes they are greatly exaggerated.

Additional thought. I have more than one male in my household and many male relatives and for the most part they definitely don't enjoy talking about how they feel. In fact if they suspect a heart to heart pow wow is looming they are looking for the nearest door.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and comments.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

jamaix said:


> Thank you for your opinion offered without personal attacks on the OP.(me)
> I will respectfully disagree with you. While it is true that not all women or men act along stereotypical lines there are general patterns that I believe can be observed. I have been around for awhile and have had many years to make these observations. I won't reveal my age but I probably have kids the age of most of the posters on PerC. I have college age kids.
> 
> So, are there some men who want to talk about it? yes but based upon those I know most don't want to. Are there some women who don't want to talk about it but who want results? Yes, but not most that I know. Start a thread on it if you want to see. There are many marriage/relationship books about this. (men want to fix it, women want to talk about it) Obviously there will be some deviations from this. Stereotypes often come about because of observable trends. However there will always be those who break this pattern. Stereotypes are often like satire for example. They contain elements of truth but sometimes they are greatly exaggerated.
> ...


Hmm I see where this is going.
I don't care enough about the subject to even entertain trying to tangle with you on this.
You have very set beliefs it seems, and the meager satisfaction of moving them,
would not even come close to the time and energy spent on trying to prove some point.
I will go out and keep manipulating these patterns, after all when you are right
and others are wrong about the real state of things, you have a decided information advantage.
Goodbye.


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

hornet said:


> You have very set beliefs it seems, and the meager satisfaction of moving them,
> would not even come close to the time and energy spent on trying to prove some point.
> Goodbye.


Not everything is learned from a book or prevailing pop culture. Many things are learned through living and life experience. I have lots of that. More than I care to admit.

Set beliefs something everyone seems to have. I too am tired of expending the energy and we can agree to disagree.


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## ForsakenMe (Aug 30, 2010)

I do believe it has to do with societal pressure for women to be agreeable and not create waves/rock the boat in terms of socializing. I know some men have trouble with being assertive as well, but they get a pass when they DO stand up for themselves. For a woman, she gets slapped down with a "bitch" label and, well, that's never nice to hear.


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## Kyandigaru (Mar 11, 2012)

I hate when men do this. they pretend to not be interested, and when the two are alone...he then proceeds to flirt.


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## Sevenblade (May 26, 2014)

@jamaix, I did re-read your post, several of them, and I remain unconvinced. But as someone else noted, you seem very set in your beliefs, and I don't care enough to try to convince you, either. I already feel like I'm arguing with a brick wall, and when people do the brick wall thing, I'm satisfied they have little else to offer and I've proved my point. Your denial/distortion of the effects of socialization, for one thing, is just absurd. Though I will add for clarification that I wasn't blaming the wider society - just irrational ideas and how they're used. 

Anyway, that's it for me.


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

Sevenblade said:


> I already feel like I'm arguing with a brick wall, and when people do the brick wall thing, I'm satisfied they have little else to offer and I've proved my point.
> 
> *Anyway, that's it for me.*


I love the red herring argument. Who is making the absurd claims with nothing to substantiate. Someone else said such and such so yeah that makes it so. 

However, you echo my feelings exactly you have nothing to offer other than your poor ole me victim-hood mentality. You have proved that point perfectly! I prefer to explore life and options rather than live in a state of self pity. 

Hopefully you will grow beyond this mentality.


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## Mr. Meepers (May 31, 2012)

jamaix said:


> I hate to admit to my age but I have been around for quite awhile (I have college age children) and whether it is PC or not I have observed indirect communication to be more common among women. That is not to say all women do this or that there aren't any men who do this because that is not the case. However, everyone is an individual and will be different. I am merely commenting on patterns I have noticed throughout my (not short) life. I believe that everyone uses both types of communication from time to time but most favor a particular style. I think that it is unfair to label either type as wrong. Those who favor direct are often seen by those who communicate indirectly as bold, arrogant, insensitive, uncaring, etc. While those who speak indirectly are often seen by those who communicate directly as confusing, timid, passive, manipulative, etc. Clearly both should show a little tolerance and try to appreciate the differences. There are occasions that call for directness and there are times where a little more diplomacy is called for. I am not sure why so many see it as a bad thing.
> There are pros and cons to both styles.
> The direct communicator may unintentionally offend others. However, there will be little confusion as to what they want.
> The indirect communicator may unintentionally confuse someone. However, they will be unlikely to offend someone.
> I could go on but I think you can see what I am saying.


I liked this ^__^ It seemed fair and shows that both forms of communication are valuable in their own way. ^__^





jamaix said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think there is a lot of truth in what you say here and every part of the world, at every point in time has it's own social environment. But I don't think these environments are islands, I think a lot of them are interconnected and influenced buy larger entities that are a part of a larger environment, such as the media, religion, prevailing concepts that are just accepted (such as gender roles), ... So, I think we may see some common theme in many environments, even if some environments are much more overt about it than others.

I also wanted to say that I think there are possible ways to acknowledge the roadblocks we human being face in ways that can be empowering. Such as noticing them, but having the determination to achieve despite them OR noticing them and having the determination to tear many of them down so that other people don't have to face them OR to raise awareness of such roadblocks so that we, as a collection of people, can begin to tear down these roadblocks. What I mean is acknowledging that they exist, sometimes feeling frustrated by them, and even complaining about them does not mean that someone is giving up ^__^ Although, I do agree with you that one should not let roadblocks stop them and they should persevere by either jumping over them or by taking a sledgehammer and trying to take them down ^__^ (one way may be faster, but the other way helps others, so both ways have their good points)




jamaix said:


> Just look at one of the first thread responses. One poster (who apparently didn't read the entire OP) said (paraphrasing) "what about men they do this too, this just proves you don't mean what you say." The poster ignored a section near the end of OP which clearly invited conversation about whether men do this too. Yet about 20 people have thanked this false misleading post.
> 
> So to anyone who wants to start a thread be prepared for all the reactionary comments that fail to read the OP all the way through. I am fine with someone telling me why they don't like direct or indirect communication or just discussing it but why do so many have to bring on the same old cries of misogyny and patriarchy on everything. Seems like there are a lot of very sensitive posters trolling for something to be upset about. Nothing is learned this way.
> 
> ...


I think there were a few women who posted because they were frustrated. I mean not everyone is going to click on your thread and see what you wrote. A lot of people may read the thread title and click to read further. So, to that regarded, woman whoa are direct, but their words are not taken at face value may have felt frustrated because the title and the emphasis on women and felt that those two things may reconfirm some people conscious and/or unconscious biases. Of course I'm not them, but that is just a guess.


As far as your comments on examples on negative quality posts, I have to disagree. Not with your exact wordings because I don't blame men, but because those are characteristics that people claim to say feminism is about, when it is not really that. And, as being a feminist supporter (I don't call myself a feminist because I have not studied gender theory nor am I an activist, but I have talked to many people who were feminists, originally thought they were sometimes blaming men, and then cleared up the understanding and actually see things that they were talking about).

Now, when people talk about the patriarchy, I believe they are basically referring to the fact that most of our political and business leaders are men. So the people who hold the most power in the US tend to be men. I think they are also referring to gender roles and how things that are deemed as masculine tend to be given greater value (not necessarily consciously, but even unconsciously) than traits that are deemed to be feminine. Now, this does not blame men (and women are perpetrators of this as well), but what this is referring to is that we are raised to see certain things as masculine or feminine and we are raised with a certain set of values, so we may have biases (as a collective group) that we are not aware of and that seem completely normal to us and that can be very hard to see because it is so ingrained in us (as soon as we are told that blue is for boys and pink is for girls and that pink is a stinky color with lots of cooties :tongue.

So and example of this could be that masculine (which is the cultural ideal for men) and feminine (the cultural ideal for women) traits tend to be opposite of each other. Personally, I think they are equally important (and most people, I would say, on a conscious level do), but gender roles can push people to be who they are not and affect the averages, imo. So we could look at the trait of being assertive, a trait that I would think that many people would deem "masculine". Well assertive people may assert themselves on their environment, which could manifest itself in direct communication. The opposite of assertion would be to let the environment assert itself on you or at least, to not push the outside environment in one direction (a positive way to say this may be to say that one is being nurturing of the people around them) or the other (not try to take any or just a little control) and indirect communication may allow someone to state their needs in a way that does not impose on those around them. Another trait are emotions, although we all have them, I think we tend to view them as feminine and we may even look down one people for expressing them. Since emotions are considered feminine, woman may be more likely to be expected and raised to be in touch with their, and other people's, emotions women may tend to be more comfortable using an indirect style in order to be diplomatic or to not hurt the ones they care about. While, on the other hand, many men are taught not to cry because crying is "girly". Unfortunately, such a stereotype hurts men by not allowing them to express the full range of motion without being viewed as something less. So some men may take those feelings that make them want to cry and repress them (they may direct their efforts elsewhere and better themselves in another way, i.e. I'm trying to show that although it is a con, people can give themselves a different pro .. I don't want someone to interpret what I am saying as one gender is better than another when I am just trying to show that devaluing feminine traits can hurt men as well). So some men (I would imagine more men than women) may not be comfortable with those emotions and don't understand those emotions as well, so they may not be aware of the need to use indirect communication or be as aware of when is the best time to use such a communication style.

And I don't think blaming gender roles necessarily promotes a victim mentality (nor would I say that it blames men or women, I think it would be unfair to blame people for doing things that they may not be completely aware that they do and I was guilty of that and I probably still do things without realizing the consequences because I am human). Instead, I think it gives us the opportunity to look at society and ourselves outside of our own cultural lenses and start to change our behaviors and our society for the better.

That was all I wanted to say ^__^


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

First of all let me say, I like your style. I may not agree with everything you have said but you managed to say it in a way that didn't make me feel personally attacked or belittled. Or make me feel that I was somehow not entitled to have an opinion. Of course we will all have somewhat different worldviews as our experiences and exposures are different.

Quite honestly a few of the post felt like personal attacks on me rather than just disagreements with my opinion. In essence, since my opinion didn't align with theirs mine was wrong and I was stupid. Therefore I came out swinging. I am not good at backing down sometimes when I should.



> Mr. Meepers said:
> 
> 
> > I also wanted to say that I think there are possible ways to acknowledge the roadblocks we human being face in ways that can be empowering. Such as noticing them, but having the determination to achieve despite them OR noticing them and having the determination to tear many of them down so that other people don't have to face them
> ...


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## Madam (Apr 1, 2012)

jamaix said:


> _Your post is so full of harsh nasty judgmental comments I don't know where to start. My instincts tell me not to waste my time._
> 
> The story in my OP is from more than 20 years ago and you weren't there *nor do you know all the facts*! However, you are entitled to your judgmental opinion. My husband was rather immature at the time as well and he would admit that. Although I won't divulge what he did it was a long time ago. I think it is wrong to pass judgement when you have no way of knowing all the details.
> 
> ...


I don't need to know all the facts, they are of no importance. Saying the opposite of what you mean with an intention to make others second guess you and ask what you really mean, to prove that they really care about you, is childish. 

So sorry for having an opinion different than yours. I assumed that that too would be ''of value'' to you, but I was mistaken. Let's forget everything I wrote and here, have something of value:

Haha, yeah totally, I do that as well! High five! That one time with my husband... blah blah...


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

> Madam said:
> 
> 
> > I* don't need to know all the facts, they are of no importance.* Saying the opposite of what you mean with an intention to make others second guess you and ask what you really mean, to prove that they really care about you, is childish.
> ...


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## Madam (Apr 1, 2012)

jamaix said:


> You don't know me nor do you know what my intentions were.


You yourself wrote black on white:



jamaix said:


> He said what is going on? To which I said you should know? He said well obviously I don't or I wouldn't be asking. When I explained what the issue was he said but you said we were fine. I said couldn't you tell it wasn't really fine? He then said how I am suppose know that fine is not fine? We laugh about this now. He knows that when a woman says fine it actually means dig a little deeper and show me you really care. I guess we need to make a guide book for guys.


I know your intention very well, because you told us what it was, and what lesson you taught your husband (plus, would like to teach other men as well). And then you got offended when I repeated what you had written. How can I not link all this to at least emotional immaturitiy?



> The world is full of people with different opinions. It is fine to express ones opinion but why do you feel the need to belittle, verbally attack and insult others who have opinions different than your own?


Belittle, verbally attack and insult. Quite a charge I'm getting here, for a simple statement that hiding your true feelings is childish, not funny.


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Before this goes into a debate about motives any further or personal attacks, please don't. Keep it nice.


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