# The Enneagram and you



## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

The other day I stumbled over a thread by @Ace Face =)
http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/112663-jcf-you.html

It dealt with how different people interpret JCF.
I found the answers enlightening.



> A lot of people have dedicated countless hours to studying and researching the cognitive functions. What I find interesting is that many people have done their studying, and have looked for proof of theories involving JCF within themselves. Upon reflecting and trying to match up what is proposed in JCF theory, some people come up with their _own_ conclusions that differ from the theory they studied. For those who have spent countless hours chipping away at JCF and trying to make the pieces connect, I have some questions.


Since I can't seem to get my head around the Enneagram of personality in any meaningful way,
I thought I'd just shamelessly steal her idea and apply it to the Enneagram. 
Emulation is the sincerest form of flattering so I hope she will not be too upset. =-o

Soooo....

A lot of people have dedicated countless hours to studying and researching the Enneagram. What I find interesting is that many people have done their studying, and have looked for proof of theories involving the Enneagram within themselves. Upon reflecting and trying to match up what is proposed in the Enneagram theory, some people come up with their _own_ conclusions that differ from the theory they studied. For those who have spent countless hours chipping away at the Enneagram and trying to make the pieces connect, I have some questions.

*NOTE* This thread is to be used for discussion. Please, do not criticize people for their opinions. If you have a question as to why someone believes something, ask them that question by all means, but don't talk down to them or disrespect them in any way on this thread. Thank you!

1. Have you ever become sceptical at material that, in some way, involves the Ennegram?

2. Do you believe all nine types can surface in an individual? Why/why not?

3. How does what you believe about the Enneagram differ from the model(s) you've studied?

4. What are your thoughts on tritype model as a whole?

5. Do you have an opinion on the instinctual types and how they tie in?

6. Is there anything about the Enneagram that just doesn't line up for you?

7. Is there anything you personally want to say in addition to what you've already stated in answering the questions above?


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

*1. Have you ever become sceptical at material that, in some way, involves the Ennegram?*

Absolutely. One must approach all new information from the position of rational skepticism. I analyze all material critically. One example of something I am both skeptical and highly critical of is online enneagram descriptions as well as books esp. by less than credible/experienced authors. And, I critically analyze material even by credible theorists such as RH. I have been quite vocal about my disapproval of their type 6 description, for instance.

I make it a point to cross-reference quality material. It takes a long time to sift through garbage to find theoretically sound information, especially online.
*
2. Do you believe all nine types can surface in an individual? Why/why not?*

According to Enneagram theory, we contain traits of all 9 types. So, while there is definitely a pattern of being bound by one's core motivations and fears and that is what one should focus on, first, to achieve personal growth, people definitely display traits from types other than their core type. Also, well, as humans we have a lot in common behaviourally.

Under stress/trauma or illness, people behave very similarly regardless of type. In the same vein, unhealthy individuals of all types will display similar traits such as extreme selfishness, self-destruction, delusional thinking and so on. Healthy individuals of all types have a lot in common because they have, at least in some ways, broke free of the ego's agendas/illusions and gained access to their Essential nature. So, they will display kindness, goodness, wisdom, acceptance and so on regardless of type.
*
3. How does what you believe about the Enneagram differ from the model(s) you've studied?*



My belief on the Enneagram is that it is a useful *tool* for personal growth if approached with the right mindset. It is a useful tool, as I said, but it is by no means perfect. It is an imperfect model, but one that is aimed at showing the way from fixation to freedom from the unhealthy patterns of neuroses, cognitive distortions and fears that bind us. This aligns with the models I have studied. 
 

I don't consider any personality typing 'system' the be all and end all of anything. Credible Enneagram theorists do not propose a dependence on the system or an attachment with the type descriptions (the key is to learn and grow, breaking free of the ego's entrapment, not identifying with some description and rooting one's very identity in it. This clinging is unhealthy and counter-productive.) I, definitely, hold the same view. 
 

People who have very varied and complex life experiences do not immediately and neatly fit into one of the types because they may have undergone significant personal growth. Similarly, people with traumatic pasts may find it difficult to accurately self-type quickly. It can be a lengthier process for some. That said, everyone has a core type that they eventually figure out. This can take from months to years. This too is consistent with the models I have studied. 
 

Keep in mind there are _*fringe movements*_ in the Enneagram community online where people ad-lib atheoretical nonsense and try to present it as theory. It is nothing but stereotypes, negative projections, conjecture based on analyzing celebrity videos and their 'vibes' and so on. While I have observed this 'school' within the online community, it is a load of crock that people should take with a whole damn handful of salt. My educated opinions shared above conflict with this particular 'model' as well as the Fauvres' facial structure typing 'model' which is a bloody disgrace. 
 
*
4. What are your thoughts on tritype model as a whole?*

The tritype model is presented by the Fauvres' is more of a parlour game than anything particularly illuminating. Their research is based on typing eyebrow shapes and so on, in some part. It is based on Ichazo's trifix theory. Overall, finding the core type and instinctual variant is key. Tritype is something I find entertaining, so to speak. It further stratifies the already complex Enneagram model, and it doesn't necessarily provide any earth shattering insights that thoroughly understanding core types and instincts does not.*

Newcomers to the Enneagram should leave tritype theory well enough alone until they figure out their core type and instincts:-*



 It distracts people into figuring out fixes and then rearranging the tritype into whatever they think fits them, at that point in time. This can and does cause a lot mistypings. The importance of fully understanding the core type and how it affects you is lost. 
 

Instead of spending time truly comprehending the types and arriving at a core type, staying there and really linking it sink in, people start flip flopping around trying to fit them into one poorly phrased tritype description or another. It's absolutely ridiculous how people take something insightful (core type), obscure its relevance, insteading turning self-typing into a game of figuring the most extensive 'pat on the back' tritype description they can find, going from fix to fix without ever developing thorough knowledge. This is why people new to the Enneagram and those that have only read online descriptions or at most one theorist such as RH should keep their hands off tritype descriptions until they are correctly typed in terms of core type and have spent time understanding how it affects them. 
 

Also, people with more complex life histories may relate to more than one fix. For instance, picking between 1/8 has been tricky for me because of my ideological upbringing. At any rate, this theory is best left as a fun exploratory thing for intermediate to advanced enneagram users. 
 *
5. Do you have an opinion on the instinctual types and how they tie in?*

They are an extremely important component, far far more crucial than the tritype thing. In fact, most credible theorists suggest that the instincts are as important to figure out as the core type.

_ Understanding whether your primary instinctual drive is geared towards seeking chemistry/charge/intensity/ merging or self-preservation themes such as health, finances, resources etc. or social instinct themes such as solidarity/finding one's place in relation to social hierarchical structures/having a keen awareness of power structures and how best to utilize them for personal and/or group benefit/recognition etc. can be so profoundly illuminating.
_
It can teach you so much about where your *blindspots* lie, and how you can overcome these. Instincts are also very useful when it comes to* relationship issues and communication*. @_MBTI Enthusiast_ posted a very good article on the subject which I strongly recommend. If she could post a link here, that'd be great.

I must take a moment to share a very important tip about typing and instincts. Don't figure out your type and instincts based on descriptions that merge core type and instincts. These are useful for furthering your understanding, but not for figuring your core type or even instinct. Here's a short excerpt from RH:



> We feel that when the three Variants are properly understood in their own right—without reference to Enneagram type—then the way in which type affects the Variants becomes more clear and compelling.
> ....
> We have found it more useful to apply the type's passion to the Instinct, ponder the connections, and then ask people about their experience. For instance, what does envy in self-preservation look like? What does gluttony in the Social Instinct look like, and what would that have to do with being a "defender"?


*
6. Is there anything about the Enneagram that just doesn't line up for you?*

Well, the descriptions can be so broadly applicable that the Forer effect kicks in (as usual). People need to be wary of this. I have a very realistic approach to theories such as the Enneagram. I know it is an imperfect model, and by no means does it have universal validity. But, in principle, it provides tools for growth. It is neither necessary nor sufficient for personal growth, but if you take something useful away from it, and not just from the description of your core type but other types, good for you. If it doesn't work for an individual, that's that. Some find it beneficial and some don't. That's just how it works. All people need to keep in mind is that it's just one of the many tools available for gaining self-awareness.

The key is to remember that Type is not a box to force fit yourself into. It is something you identify and then transcend. That's all there is to it.

*
7. Is there anything you personally want to say in addition to what you've already stated in answering the questions above?*

I want to say that I quite appreciate that you started such a thought provoking thread. I encourage you to create more such threads.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

*1. Have you ever become sceptical at material that, in some way, involves the Ennegram?*
Not initially no. I was completely into it until recently. But I decided a while ago that if I'm going to invest a lot of my time and energy in something, then I'm going to get something positive out of it. 

*2. Do you believe all nine types can surface in an individual? Why/why not?*
I'm still not well-versed enough to answer this question. But what I have noticed is that on the surface there is considerable overlap. One really does have to dig really deep in order to get at their core. However, imo .. for this system to really work, people have to put their faith in it. It's ultimately a spiritual system and does require a person to believe it to be true in order for it to work. 

*3. How does what you believe about the Enneagram differ from the model(s) you've studied?*
What I believe about the Enneagram is that even if it isn't true and that even if it is all hocus pocus mumbo jumbo designed to convince people .. it still allowed me to introspect about my life, my past, my inner self and come to some very deep realizations. I feel better about myself than I did a year and a half ago. I've been able to find reasonable [and the key word is reasonable] explanations for a lot of my repeated behavioural patterns. 

I personally think that Enneagram combined with JCF completes the picture and that even though both should be studied in isolation, that a person should eventually complete the picture in order to complete a mental map of themselves .. but still always leave some room for things that will not be explained. Even both theories don't account for all nurtured and learned behaviour and not every single action, thought, idea/belief can be explained through even both theories combined. 

*4. What are your thoughts on tritype model as a whole?*
I was losing my faith in the tritype model until yesterday.

*5. Do you have an opinion on the instinctual types and how they tie in?*
I believe they are the strongest aspect of Enneagram theory. I have been able to relate most closely to sx-dom which has explained a lot more than even the Type 4 description did. It's ultimately what allowed me to identify exactly how my fiance and I differ and how to use those differences to improve our relationship. 

*6. Is there anything about the Enneagram that just doesn't line up for you?*
Not anymore ... no. I think my own study into it relatively complete and I feel completely satisfied with how well it's worked out for me and my SO. We were having a lot of serious problems while we were both mistyped and once we finally pegged our types down, we've been actively using Enneagram theory to both help each other integrate as well as improve our communication with each other. 

We continued to have problems till I finally typed as a 4w3 and she typed as a 2w3 and since then whenever each of us has been under stress, we've consciously applied the theory on the other without letting each other know and it has helped tremendously. Maybe it's the theory .. or maybe it's just that we're more attuned to each other. But there are certain areas of the theory that does help us understand each other better. 

*7. Is there anything you personally want to say in addition to what you've already stated in answering the questions above?*
Not really. I'm personally very satisfied with my journey into Enneagrams and I've been able to put it to good use for myself in my own way.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

@Boss


> I want to say that I quite appreciate that you started such a thought provoking thread. I encourage you to create more such threads.


OK!
I'll try to find someone else to shamelessly copy... XD


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

hornet said:


> 1. Have you ever become sceptical at material that, in some way, involves the Ennegram?


Primarily of the material that suggests that the Enneagram has a spiritual origin. I'm open to the possibility, but it does not seem like the most _probable_ explanation for how and why an Enneagram type would build in a person given the evidence at hand. I'm much in favor of the idea that the primary type stems from childhood, and other types one finds to resonate with oneself are probably from other influences over a person's life, though I'd concede that some people may come about having a core differently.



> 2. Do you believe all nine types can surface in an individual? Why/why not?


It depends on what you mean.

If you give someone an extensive Enneagram test or examine their personal writing, you're going to see that most people identify with or have influence from different aspects of several of the types. That's just a fact. People are not simple entities, especially in the modern era when your typical mind is shaped by complicated, fast and tricky media and accustomed to a world with many influences. 

What all this means to me is that it's probably more difficult to get to a lot of people's core these days than it might have been around the time when the Enneagram was come up with. I've listened to an online talk that hypothesizes that the older mind model looked more like a tree, while the modern one looks more like a network, and if this is true (I think the idea holds validity) it means that more _stuff_ is found on the surface of a modern person, easier to access. It would definitely impact the way the Enneagram looks and functions in a person - broadening it, making for more apparent complexity. It would make for people who claim that one core doesn't really define them alone, see themselves strongly in more than one type and so forth. Getting to a _single_ core can take real digging, and there is a need for clarity and objectivity of a sort that penetrates through the apparent complexity of a person's life.

Nonetheless, I think most people still have a single core, with some people out there who have really strong wings that make it look like they have two, or really strong influence from a different center. Hence the "surfacing" of all nine types would not be due to the fact that everyone has all nine as cores, just as influences.



> 3. How does what you believe about the Enneagram differ from the model(s) you've studied?


Much of the above applies.



> 4. What are your thoughts on tritype model as a whole?


People seem to reach for it like candy to explain the corners of their lives that are unreached by their core. For those who aren't secure in their core yet, it would probably be wisest to look for and grapple with that issue primarily - it's going to be that core that will make the biggest difference in understanding yourself. The rest is all influences, and you'd be surprised at how influences can shift and change based on your life. I surmise that "tritype" is a matter of strength in influences from the other triads than your core, and I think that it can change throughout a person's lifetime.



> 5. Do you have an opinion on the instinctual types and how they tie in?


I understand them separately from the Enneagram, as an indicator of what a person may be concerned with in general. Clearly they manifest differently in each type, though I don't agree with some of the specifics of those manifestations as some of the experts claim them. The idea of putting them into a set order (such as having an "sp/so" type) doesn't make a lot of sense because people can change foci throughout their lives on this front, too. 

I can say for myself that my primary instinct from childhood appears to be sp, and how prominent so or sx is in me fluctuates as I do different things in life. At the moment I evidence a lot more so than sx concern. In the past I've had more sx than so.



> 6. Is there anything about the Enneagram that just doesn't line up for you?


I think it's become clear by a lot of what I have said so far that I disagree with a fixation on structure outside of the core. It's important to remember, generally, that these are theoretical structures, and theory must flex to fit reality, not the other way around.



> 7. Is there anything you personally want to say in addition to what you've already stated in answering the questions above?


I discovered the Enneagram here. The stickied resources were my first go-to, especially the works of Timeless. The writings of various PerC members on their types and others have been interesting, at times helpful even if many of us are inexpert. Overall, PerC involvement with the topic reminds me of the nature of human ideas and systems: rooted, lasting, but varying in manifestation within different contexts, evolving as people change. Ideas are as organic as we are, and that is why they speak to us.


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## PheonixFrenzy (Aug 19, 2012)

hornet said:


> The other day I stumbled over a thread by @_Ace Face_ =)
> http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/112663-jcf-you.html
> 
> It dealt with how different people interpret JCF.
> ...


1. Have you ever become sceptical at material that, in some way, involves the Ennegram?
Yes I have. While reading online descrptions isn't bad, I perfer to have my own ways of viewing the 9 types. 

2. Do you believe all nine types can surface in an individual? Why/why not?
Yes, but that can also mean that you have virutaully no enna type in you. For example, You could be a core 4 but have some 3, 5, and 8 in you but no 9. 

3. How does what you believe about the Enneagram differ from the model(s) you've studied?
While I belive the Ennergram has some signifgance with your personality, its more about your desires, fears, motivations then your personality traits. But, your ennatype can be influenced by your personality. For example I am Type 6 with a 5 wing but I am an INFP, so I can be doubful about my moral princpals. The Ennergram imo, is to make your Myer-Briggs Type more stronger and be who you wanted to be. 

4. What are your thoughts on tritype model as a whole?
Personally, Im not a fan. It just adds more complications to the theory. I like to make things simple. This may sound snobby, though Im not trying to be, if you use the tritype theory, you are actually being obssesed with your idenity and not breaking free of it because the ennergram is more about getting rid of delusions rather than living with them and by adding two more types to your core, your trying to use the Ennagram to _find _an indenity rather than _break free _of it. 

5. Do you have an opinion on the instinctual types and how they tie in?
How I view the instinctual types is they are not types but rather how your motivations connect with your fears. I will eleborate below: 
- Self Preservation- Phyiscal comfort and well being. 
- "Intensity"- Love of instense expreciences. 
- "Adapative/Socail- How to connect to others adapt to the socail enviorment. 

For example, my ennagram type is 6. Type 6's desire is to have security and the fear is loose security: 
Self Pres: To have sercurity in physical comfort and well being. Gets scared when comfort and phiyscial stability is gone. 
Intensity: To have sercuity in instense expreices and people you feel give the intense expreice. Gets scared when no intense exprience is there.
Socail: To have sercuity by being apart of groups. Gets scared when gruops leavs or mistrusts them. 

Our three instincs one can be more donmaint than others.Keep in mind that instinctal drives have nothing to do with socail skills. For example, you could have very socail extroveted happy go lucky guy but has a self-pres drive rather than a "socail" drive. So to conclude, its more about what motivaits us rather than personality as a whole. 

6. Is there anything about the Enneagram that just doesn't line up for you?
Types 3 and 6. I think type 3 is less shallow than alot of online desrptions I have read and Type 6 are not as conformitst as the ennergram online descrptions puts us. 

7. Is there anything you personally want to say in addition to what you've already stated in answering the questions above?[/ 
No but thanks for the thought provoking questions:happy:


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## darude11 (Jul 6, 2011)

I'll have a try.

*1. Have you ever become sceptical at material that, in some way, involves the Ennegram?*
Yeah, my first impression came from Wikipedia article about it, which was in my first language. Thing is that there is section, which wasn't in English article, so I had to describe it. It was about some things like that Enneagram is some kind of gnosticism (which since I am christian meant something bad for me) when used as spiritual guide or something like that. It definetly left some scars on my opinion about Enneagram (I aviod anything that connects enneagram and spiritual except for enneagram of vices and sins).

*2. Do you believe all nine types can surface in an individual? Why/why not?*
Yes, I do believe, even though there is still one type, which takes me the longest time to determine, if person is that type. It's 6. Why exactly six? Because type 6 can (and often will) take behavior (or anything crucial to determining enneagram type) from person, which he/she thinks is social idol (or behaves best when in society) and he/she learns how to behave like him. Or at least that's what I think about how it works. Type 6 can be worst to type, but it is still possible (for example in my class there are mainly types 6 and 7, and there is huge difference between them, even though they behave almost exactly same. Thing is, that there are obviously those, which seem to lead, and those, which seem to follow. But it took me some long time to realise.

*3. How does what you believe about the Enneagram differ from the model(s) you've studied?*
Well, if I had to compare it with other psychological theories, I'd do it like this:

Enneagram - MBTI
MBTI centers only around things, which you can see on person, and which can person percieve about himself too. It has got determined traits, which often remind me of computer - either 1 or 0. Either yes or no. I don't however say, that somebody can't be really close to other type. My unpublished short theory is, that if you change any letter in your MBTI type for opposite, there are still lots of traits, in which you relate to that personality type (for example for INTP the other 4 are ENTP, ISTP, INFP and INTJ, try it!). And I support also theory, in which you can have one type of those 4 mentioned above, to which you relate most (that's why I have T in INTP underlined - I relate most to INFP, it's most balanced of my dichotomies but still on T). Simply put MBTI shows how you behave/think.
Enneagram however shows you not only how you behave. It shows you also your core motivations and who would you like to be, who you become to resemble when you're under stress or going in path of spiritual growth, and it might show you a lot more about you if you did some research on internet.

Enneagram - 4 temperaments (or is it 5?)
Yep, I am talking about you, sanguine-melancholic-choleric-phlegmatics (and optionaly 5th supine). What theory of 4 temperaments does is that it gives you 4 pieces of puzzle and says "Take those, which does apply to you and connect them! Now you're done." Well, I have hard times when I try to find out which temperament applies to me most. I can be perfectionistic like melancholic, I also might be calmed like phlegmatic, I am often "that one which follows" as supine. I can of course also be sanguine-ly funny if I want to, and if the situation puts me in place like that, I can do choleric-like leader. I don't have idea who I am. "But 4 (5) temperaments never say that you're exactly one of them!" Yeah, so what? I am all of them, deal with it. (I however identify myself mostly with mel-phlegm-supines.)
Enneagram might do the same. It gives you however 9 pieces of puzzle, and it says "Put them in order, in which you appear to be that type!" and you're like 'Hmm, all right them, I'll try to...'. Then you order them, and one Enneagram divides in this place into many more, which all say you different things about what does that order mean to you. Others might say in this point "Ah, screw you guys, I'm going home!", but I find this point amazing because of all different possibilities. And best thing is, when you take two of those enneagrams, and you try to make them friends. They might or might not combine into one, which might be totally new!

Enneagram - Reversal Theory
I don't know that much about Reversal theory, because there isn't that much about it. I however think that it's mainly about 4 traits of personality (something, which basically translates to J/P in MBTI; something like listening/not-listening to rules; Mastery-Sympathy; Self-Others, I reccomend to look at wiki if you're interested), which might change under certain conditions (situation, frustration and one, to which I can't recall name, but it's something like "your brain is often in that one state of mind, so it changes"). Technically it's more-or-less systematically random. You never know, when new situation comes, in which your rebelious nature switches to one, which accepts rules (going across road?), or when you become frustrated (you try to do your work, but nothing goes as you want it to, so you switch to some funny activity), or when your brain has just enough so it automatically switches.
In Enneagram, well, I am not really sure. There are two main kinds of changes in personality, which I have found out about - stress-growth and chemical changes. But I won't explain those there, since those would take really long to.

*4. What are your thoughts on tritype model as a whole?*
Tritype is Enneagram's best bud. It's like using magnifying glass to read really small text, or like using other 990 pieces of 1000-piece puzzle to find out what does picture look like (the puzzle one might be wrong in numbers used, so try to ignore those). Or at least that's what I think. Tritype specifies what enneagram type is yours. It makes each one person much more unique. It's like putting in one room 9 people and saying "One of them is just like you" and putting in another room 2916 people and saying "One of them is just like you" (assuming that in both rooms each person has different type/tritype). Which one would make you believe, that you're unique?
It's expansion for Enneagram, it's Enneagram's datadisc. It's adding whole lot of new personalities just with adding another two types behind it. Why would two sixes be exactly same? One can be more cold to people, while other warm as... well, I don't know how warm, I am bad at comparising things. One of those 6's can be 6-2-9, while other 6-8-3 or 6-8-4. Anything is possible when you use tritypes.
Bad thing about them is, that you don't know what to believe, when you try to learn about them.

*5. Do you have an opinion on the instinctual types and how they tie in?*
Well, I don't know that much about these. Only that they're talking about what the type focuses on. But I don' know, whether or not does it apply to other three types. If I'll have time (since school year is coming and school is often boring, I'll definetly have some =D), I'll think about it.

*6. Is there anything about the Enneagram that just doesn't line up for you?*
Whether I am type 5 or 6. It's one of those things that always tease me. I have asked thousand times and I am afraid to ask one more time who I am. So I leave this unanswered. I just say "Meh, is it really that important? I'll make myself 5, who would know difference?" If I had to do questionarry on the 'What's my type?' subforum, I wouldn't be able to do so, all my answers would be more 5-ish, because I know what would 5 have to say on those.

*7. Is there anything you personally want to say in addition to what you've already stated in answering the questions above?*
Yeah, if anybody has anything to ask about on my answers above, consider, if everybody would really want to know answer for it too. If yes, post it as reply to this post. If not, then PM me. I am always open to questions/critics/explanations, that take one and half page.

Thanks for reading!


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## Sonny (Oct 14, 2008)

hornet said:


> 1. Have you ever become sceptical at material that, in some way, involves the Ennegram?


A concept has validity and holds up under scrutiny, or it doesn't, I see no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water because there are numerous poor interpretations of the Enneagram out there. It is wise to be discerning about what you read and believe.



hornet said:


> 2. Do you believe all nine types can surface in an individual? Why/why not?


Not with any significance. Everyone can show surface similarities, all core motivations however are not going to be present in one person unless they have multiple personality disorder and are literally 9 different people.



hornet said:


> 3. How does what you believe about the Enneagram differ from the model(s) you've studied?


It's not so much that what I believe differs from what I've read, more that different concepts from different teachers are given different weight while other concepts are ignored. My aim will always be self-awareness leading to self-improvement, if a model adds nothing to that it is not a point of interest.



hornet said:


> 4. What are your thoughts on tritype model as a whole?


Irrelevant, not without some insight however.



hornet said:


> 5. Do you have an opinion on the instinctual types and how they tie in?


I consider them to hold more importance than tritype (which admittedly isn't saying much) and wings. And the insight added can be individually relevant in a distinct and separate way from your Enneagram.



hornet said:


> 6. Is there anything about the Enneagram that just doesn't line up for you?
> 
> 7. Is there anything you personally want to say in addition to what you've already stated in answering the questions above?


These two go together for me.

My biggest issue is seeing people jump into tritype theory without having fully settled on, and investigated their core type, Enneagram as I see it is about growth, not a cataloguing system, and the room for growth is largely found by going as deep and introspective as you can on your core type and instincts, asking hard questions and overcoming unhealthy patterns. Who cares what your head fix is if you're a 1, or that you have poor access to your heart fix if you're a leading gut type, they add little value, at this point is just wank talk wanting to look like you know the theory back-the-front. The theory is valueless if you don't apply its purpose. 

If you know the theory backwards, and are in the unhealthy levels of development, don't try to help other people know the theory, apply it, then and only then do you show that you are worth listening to.


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## proustian (Aug 16, 2012)

hornet said:


> 1. Have you ever become sceptical at material that, in some way, involves the Ennegram?


Yes. I am sceptical of of quasi-spiritualisation sites which make the enneagram into something akin to a religion. My favourites are where psychologists have integrated the enneagram into their practices as another tool to help people, especially The Enneagram Spectrum Enneagram Styles


hornet said:


> 2. Do you believe all nine types can surface in an individual? Why/why not?


For myself, I can use all of the nine types when the need arises to some degree. Some I use with a lot more ease than others but I wear myself out by making myself go there and being something I am not. 



hornet said:


> 3. How does what you believe about the Enneagram differ from the model(s) you've studied?


The main pont of difference compared to other models I have studied is that the enneagram names my inherent belief which underlies how I navigate life and make descions.



hornet said:


> 4. What are your thoughts on tritype model as a whole?


I have found it very useful. My thinking space is at 7, and when I named this natural thinking space for myself I found self-acceptance around my apparent 'scattiness', and also some insight about how to manage my thinking and make sure that I can actually bring a project in instead of just jumping in to another great idea.


hornet said:


> 5. Do you have an opinion on the instinctual types and how they tie in?


I find the instinctual descriptors interesting but of minor interest only. 



hornet said:


> 6. Is there anything about the Enneagram that just doesn't line up for you?


Sure, it is soft science, unproven scientifically by any blind randomised mathematical rational testing. People self-select their type and there are is no scientific test with sensitivity analysis that I know of to make an accurate diagnosis for typing people.

Theories based upon anecdotal type evidence are not necessarily incorrect and do not preclude me from using them as a helpful tool. I have no life or death decisions pending the outcome of positive changes I might make from having better self insight.



hornet said:


> 7. Is there anything you personally want to say in addition to what you've already stated in answering the questions above?


I think the enneagram is a very cunning look at personality because the nine ways of viewing of the world, 3 feeling, 3 thinking, and 3 gut, seems to cover every possibility for every conceivable internal reality. I can't think of a 10th way, and I have tried quite hard.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

*1. Have you ever become skeptical at material that, in some way, involves the Ennegram?*

Yes. a) It's a model, b) It's a model describing human psychology, c) It's a model describing human psychology that has very little rigorous validation, testing, or standardization. I like it as a psycho-spiritual model however.

* 2. Do you believe all nine types can surface in an individual? Why/why not?*

Yes. The nine core motivations are universal human traits. It's important to realize that each motivation (type) can vary in the degree it expresses itself in each individual, including the core type. The healthier and more developed one is, the less their life decisions will be poorly affected by these motivations.

* 3. How does what you believe about the Enneagram differ from the model(s) you've studied?*

I believe that the motivations of types other than the core _can_ play a large part in one's personality. Tritype theory touches upon this, but I really don't believe it has to be one type from each triad. I see it more as a ranking of influence. I even think this ranking can change with life experience and self-work. Of course in some cases, the core will be so dominant that the other influences don't make much of a difference. I am much more fond of the subtype (variant) system and the wing system, which provide 12 variations of each core type.

* 4. What are your thoughts on tritype model as a whole?*

I've stated my opinion above. I think it's more useful to see your influences as a ranking and not as a tritype; to understand *all* the types, and how they play into *your own* personality. It's also a relatively new concept that requires more verification, and I really do _not_ appreciate the Fauvres' half-assed archetype descriptions.

* 5. Do you have an opinion on the instinctual types and how they tie in?*

I really like the subtypes myself and they've been largely applicable to my life. However, I think they are easily misunderstood and create a lot of mistypes. I personally think one should determine their variant in relation to their core type and not separately, because there is some overlap between certain types and subtype descriptions that may cause confusion otherwise.

* 6. Is there anything about the Enneagram that just doesn't line up for you?*

Yes when I use it as a rigid classification model, but not really when I treat it as a spiritual system that I can take the bits I like out of and use for self-development, personal growth, connecting with, and understanding others better, and discarding what I don't like or doesn't fit. No, I don't fit all the nooks and crannies of my type, but no one does. I'm actually impressed at the insight the Enneagram has given me into my life. It's been far more useful than MBTI ever has for me.

* 7. Is there anything you personally want to say in addition to what you've already stated in answering the questions above?*

I'm going to copy and paste what I wrote in the http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/112663-jcf-you-4.html#post2874193 thread:

Just to summarize: Models are useful but some more than others (e.g. verifiable ones). Models can be misused when we describe things outside their scope with them. Personality is not static; it changes based on life experience, especially deliberate, extreme, or prolonged change. Typing can be fun, but _and_ I like Enneagram better for that


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

1. Have you ever become skeptical at material that, in some way, involves the Enneagram?

Yes. I think it suffers from most of the same problems as MBTI does (and tries to make up for them by going all “spiritual" on this stuff, whatever is actually implied by this). It's biggest fault, I think, is how it boxes the numeric labels into a system, rather than leaves room for the inevitable existence of the individual which must come before that of the system to make the system relevant to real people to begin with - in other words, it can't really exist as a "system" to work, since people don't psychologically exist as systems - it would be better off just being descriptive of psychological tendencies in the realm of "mentality," like JCFs, although it generally extends to persona as well, unlike MBTI, since persona would certainly be ruled by mentality driven by how a person is motivated by emotion (exactly the antithesis of what cognitive functions do in the psychic realm of emotion – people are driven by emotion/rational modes of operation/reasoning aren’t driven by emotion in-and-of-themselves), but it's presence isn't a constant, nor easily recognizable outside of the realm of the analytical. After all, ego identity is all about a person’s individuality (especially in the fact that everything a person wants to be seen as is influenced only by their own individual ego identity), so overlooking this above all else would turn this stuff into nothing better than trying to see which persona your personality resembles most, which would be meaningless in the end, since the criterion would be broad enough for the SYSTEM to work, but not for it to work within the person. Any time this stuff attempts to present the material as if it is human software, I know it’s baloney, since “human software” has no place in psychological principle (humans aren’t a predictable constant by nature – manifestations wouldn’t be possible, since they’d just always be there). I think it’s needlessly overcomplicated in how it’s systemized as well, which gives me the persistent idea that the people behind it aren’t confident with what they’re looking for (after all, if an individual knew what he/she was looking for, they should be able to describe it first, rather than create a system in order to narrow down possibilities to try to seek grounding in an objective to begin with). Therefore, any confident personality system should be descriptive first-and-foremost, not so broad and stereotypical, as if they have a weak grasp of specific principles identified behind it first (or fear that this will have an impact on public reception somehow).

2. Do you believe all nine types can surface in an individual? Why/why not?

Maybe unconsciously, but I doubt most will surface consciously, which once again, defeats the point of using this as a personality “special snowflake” system at all (let alone, it would cease to serve any purpose in telling any truths about you the individual that make you an individual, being that people are the products of their choices, soo…). This is working in the realm of the ego syntonic/dystonic and ego identity like MBTI, so obviously, there will be one people are most conscious of in a specific realm (head, heart, gut) and the rest are less conscious in manifestation (you can only operate on one full-blown mentality at a time anyhow, so there are no ands-ifs-or-buts about it that one is more first-nature to you than the rest – in other words, you automatically default to one and have habituated it). If your enneagram type isn’t self-evident to you, all I have to say is, you’re probably looking for an idealized persona rather than describing yourself objectively (so maybe you have other type potential deep within (likely in your imagination, so not objective other than perhaps under extreme instances of out-of-character behavior), but sorry, if it hasn’t manifested, it hasn’t manifested). You can be anything in your imagination, but reality imposes the limits (no duh, but I think common-sense tends to be a bit lacking when people get over-excited about these systems, thanks to the over-the-top way they are presented). Also, do not focus on behavior more than to a necessary extent (this stuff is rarely present in persona behavior other than what aspects a person will want the world to see) – it’s personal.

3. How does what you believe about the Enneagram differ from the model(s) you've studied?

At this point, beyond the meaning within the terminology, I have a completely modified view of this stuff from the stereotypical imagery on the internet (which proves to me that this stuff is needlessly dumbed-down). The adjectives in this work best in isolation from any system, I’ve found, and especially overlap with anyone’s individuality, including the enneagram’s concepts of “heart,” “head,” and “gut,” which fit observations well as long as people understand the built-in meanings in those words to begin with. The triad stuff is fine, since the conscious ego is fundamentally triangular in nature, as implied in Freud’s brilliant iceberg representation of the ego (id, ego, superego), so “triangles” (threesomes) of all sorts can essentially be superimposed on the ego in personality models, interestingly enough (the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] + would be shadows or just completely unconscious). Okay, so past this nitty-gritty stuff, here’s how I tend to simplify this stuff adjectivally to take care of variable issues:

Head Types and Instinctual Responses to People/Emotions:

5: Detachment/repression (comparative and informational)
6: Suspicion/distrust (contrasting and problem-solving)
7: Adventurous/experimental (general disregard for information unless it is novel and has future potential) – probably the most laid back of the Head Types

Heart Types and Instinctual Responses to People/Emotions:

2: People-pleasing/dependent (open and purposeful)
3: Status-pleasing/independent (self-promotional and fickle)
4: Self-pleasing/controlled (eccentric and personal)

Gut Types and Instinctual Responses to People/Emotions:

1: Impulse-denying/self-contained (direct and deliberate)
8: Impulse-supplying/self-accepting (challenging and reactive)
9: Impulse-accepting/self-removed (indirect and go-with-the-flow)


4. What are your thoughts on tritype model as a whole?

See question 6. Generally, the concept is fine though if you take the time to let it sink in on a wording basis.

5. Do you have an opinion on the instinctual types and how they tie in?

I think they tie in on an individual basis, essentially (can’t be standardized). Otherwise, I fail to see where any person would put their sex drive before self-preservation, let alone, their social drives before self-preservation on a grand scale. This stuff sounds heavily socialized and non-permanent for the most part (I mean, it seems too situation-dependent – you’re number is your habituated mentality that will have a say in it all, so one would think it inherently serves the purpose of self-preservation to begin with, and then, might relegate the other two roles to the other two types in the type code (so, I might be a self-preservation 5, a social 4 (to an extent), and a sexual 1 (yeah, totally stereotypical there, LOL)) – the order of the other two to me seems like it should be the following: social > sexual, just because, uh, seriously, how many opportunities do people get to be sexual in life?) I could easily be 100% wrong about this, but I’m having trouble seeing this stuff beyond persona/socialization, since after all, one better be well-prepared to conform to all three ego-syntonically when they come one’s way, so only on a survivalist level do I see an order of preference coming into play.

6. Is there anything about the Enneagram that just doesn't line up for you?

Yes. The inconsistent principles behind the type triads and the crap you hear about “integrating types” (my ass, this sounds like a horoscope if I’ve ever seen one, since after all, how would you really know you’ve changed mentalities, unless you’ve lost the conscious ones? It disobeys any real principles of psychology, let alone, defeats itself, because you either have a type or you don’t (and why lose one gut type for another, or one head type for another, etc. – we’re getting too unconscious here, let alone, making too many presumptions about what a healthy response is or what constitutes personal growth) – where do these people come up with the crap about, say, more confident 5s become 8s? Where is confidence inherent in 8s, but not in 5s? There’s no underlying principle of compatibility here at all. It might as well be pseudo-psychology, or, in other words, behaviorism. You can’t make assumptions about motivations being typological – motivations are motivations, not unlabeled types, lol. Also, I didn’t think individuals can be predicted like this. What a horoscope!). And because of the stupid principles, this gives people the idea that they can just make up type triads, which shouldn’t be possible if this stuff had underlying principles like cognitive functions (which it probably does, since it corresponds with real defense mechanisms to an extent). So from here, I came up with an idea in July that consists of the following arrangements of the types with a complementary 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] wing to the first:



In every 1, there’s a 6.
In every 2, there’s a 7.
In every 3, there’s an 8.
In every 4, there’s a 9.
In every 5, there’s a 1.
In every 6, there’s a 2.
In every 7, there’s a 3.
In every 8, there’s a 4.
In every 9, there’s a 5.
 
So, the first wing is what the enneagram proposes it should be (e.g. 5w4 or 4w5, etc.), but the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] wing is inherent in your dominant type, since a person would be unstable if their 1[SUP]st[/SUP] wing isn’t somehow supported by something similar in nature to it (like the inferior function is to the dominant in MBTI/Jung, being either both perception or judgment). That would allow the unconscious to take over in ways that would be too ego-dystonic to the conscious ego (core type) that it wouldn’t have any ways of being able to find any compatibility in the unconscious to be able to handle it, so it would get overwhelmed and cause tons of problems, basically. Of course, I certainly don’t know if I’m right and would love a lot of input (I should have made a post about this earlier, but I didn’t have my computer at the time, so I’ll get to that), but it’s a working hypothesis where I find the enneagram too unreasonable. I grouped the types based on inherent similarities I noticed between them when I used my descriptive classifications mentioned earlier in this.

7. Is there anything you personally want to say in addition to what you've already stated in answering the questions above?

Well, it’s important to note the common mistakes people make in reasoning when using this stuff, so I might as well address these:



Your type is not your motivations – your type can be seen in HOW you respond to motivation/motivators or demotivation/”demotivators”
So far as I know, you can never change type (this would probably cause a lot of psychological damage, like habituating a new cognitive function in place of the dominant would – it’s probably like what would happen if you forced a homosexual person to go straight – it would cause psychological damage – after all, there is an aspect of this stuff heavily linked to sex in this anyhow as all enneagram devotees know, so thus, I find this an apt comparison) – if you think you have, you are viewing it in terms of persona, not the psychology behind it.
The enneagram reflects your emotional make-up, not your psychological make-up, so you can’t use it to figure out your problems (you can’t change your emotional mechanisms, but I believe it’s possible that altering your habits, outlooks, and thus, emotional responses can impact how you naturally cope with anything)
This stuff is flexible, so even if someone has the same type as you, they can still handle stuff very differently from you – it’s just a matter of what constitutes the person fitting the numeric concept that makes this stuff meaningful at all.
 
So, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the enneagram info and such online at face value (some of it is questionable though in principle, and it could be a lot better in the real world example department), but like any other system, it’s not there to do all of the thinking for you, nor is it there to educate one on its principles – it is presented professionally for the public to generally accept and trust as face value (so, most of it’s basic principles are to be found built into the terminology used by it), but you’re the one who should be answering questions with it, as it doesn’t know you or others personally. It’s presentation tends to be deceiving, as they present it like they discovered these innate dispositions people have, although this isn’t what the types are at all – they are merely ego syntonic defense mechanisms people will often default to. So of course, they’ll probably get mixed into people’s personas as well, since the persona is a complex (emotionally-toned ideas about oneself) and (re)affirm this to the person. The most you might notice this stuff in persona will probably be in the heart/head/gut classifications in general – identifying the specific types is much trickier, but often comes out in actions, rather than in what people say, like in MBTI/Jung. They’re more instinctual than cognitive functions, so really, I doubt anyone has much, if any kind of control consciously rationalized within them (they are merely consciously preferred mentalities).


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@JungyesMBTIno
Excellent analysis. I have a quick point to make about the integration aspect. The theory doesn't postulate that an individual becomes a different type, upon integration. It's merely an inculcation of healthier traits of the type in the direction of integration. A 5 would remain a 5, and there would be no change in unconscious motivations and fears.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Boss said:


> @_JungyesMBTIno_
> Excellent analysis. I have a quick point to make about the integration aspect. The theory doesn't postulate that an individual becomes a different type, upon integration. It's merely an inculcation of healthier traits of the type in the direction of integration. A 5 would remain a 5, and there would be no change in unconscious motivations and fears.


Ah, okay. Gee, I took that literally, lol. I'm still a bit unsure about the concept of integration from say, head type to gut type (maybe it's true, but I tend to wonder how they come to that conclusion).


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## proustian (Aug 16, 2012)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> 3. How does what you believe about the Enneagram differ from the model(s) you've studied?
> 
> Head Types and Instinctual Responses to People/Emotions:
> 
> ...


Like you I use my own modified, helicopter view of the types. Very simply, for my own understanding, I group them as follows:

*1's, 2's, 7's*
All look outward to perceive and analyse incoming data in order to further their particular, narrowly defined interests. 

1's Gut types - look to improve or reform their item of interest. 
2's Heart types - look to help or nurture their person of interest. 
7's Head types - look to forward their latest thought interest.


*9's, 3's, 6's*
All look outward to perceive and analyse incoming data in order to further their general, broadly defined interests. 

9's Gut types - gather data to inform them how to find a middle road in conflicting situations
3's Heart types - gather data to inform them how to galvanise and motivate populations of people
6's Head types - gather data to inform them of how to moderate thinking within a population of people


*8's, 4's, 5's*
All look inward to perceive and analyse how their perceptions of the world affect them. They have a high intrapersonal intelligence.

8's Gut types - are very self aware of what they want and don't want
4's Heart types - are very self aware of their image and who they are
5's Head types - are very self aware of their logic and arguments


Aside from the three preferred aspects of whether to: 
look outwards specifically, 
look outwards broadly or 
look inwards

I am unable to imagine a fourth possible driver which would enable us to _differently use _of all the information we gather up every day. I would be interested to know if anyone else has seen any gaps in the enneagram in this regard?







JungyesMBTIno said:


> 6. Is there anything about the Enneagram that just doesn't line up for you?
> 
> I came up with an idea in July that consists of the following arrangements of the types with a complementary 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] wing to the first:
> 
> ...



I like this a lot because it resonates with what I have observed in myself and others.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

proustian said:


> Like you I use my own modified, helicopter view of the types. Very simply, for my own understanding, I group them as follows:
> 
> *1's, 2's, 7's*
> All look outward to perceive and analyse incoming data in order to further their particular, narrowly defined interests.
> ...


WOW! This is worthy of publication (or further testing) imo (as a very discerning study of human motivation with the enneagram)! This further nails 5w4 with a 1 gut fix for me.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Personally, I tend to wonder how it makes sense that everyone has every type within him/her, etc. if it is supposedly categorizing habituated responses to emotional motivation, which would depend on the emotional makeup of the person to begin with (and the psychology that formed from this so very early on in life) - I mean, alter this response-pattern enough, and I wonder if this would result in an all new person (since this so blatantly disregards potential genetic temperament factors as well). In kind of makes sense in MPD (dissociative disorders), but wouldn't this mean that someone would have to have a dissociative disorder to begin with in order to change type (so therefore, you can never truly be stable and experience such a phenomenon?). Does it perhaps permit persona adaptability, looking at it from a survivalist perspective? I mean, of all aspects of outward personality, persona probably exists the farthest outside of the ego, since it's essentially there to protect the ego, so perhaps the non-habituated types exist the farthest outside of the ego from an inward perspective and serve as defense mechanisms for the persona complex? Anyway, this stuff tends to sound eerily reminiscent of MPD criteria when getting down to what constitutes type habituation to begin with (which I think is partially behind my experiences of skepticism toward the "integration" stuff - if it's not based in descriptive phenomena, then determining integration to me just sounds like an inevitably biased assessment (like someone claiming to have MPD with enough awareness to even make such a claim (which would mean that a person would actually have a normal persona complex, unlike someone who truly has MPD).


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## proustian (Aug 16, 2012)

I have to admit that, for me as a E9, I cannot imagine myself ever 'becoming' an E3. The best I can imagine is being in a very good positive space so that to an outside observer I might appear like and E3. That is, industrious, efficient and organised with a good disposition and attitude to life.

I have to hold all this stuff about integration and going to 'health' very lightly because to do otherwise means imagining going down a path of MPD, which has to be wrong. I find the descriptors of disintegration probably more helpful than the health descriptors. Reading what my 'temper' looks like to an outsider is quite good motivation for moving myself out of that space. And likewise, when I am in a bad space, I never consider myself to have 'become' an E6.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Yeah, I've just never really felt "8" at anytime of supposed "integration," (not sure what that would entail either - elation???) nor have I ever had issues with 8s to begin with so that any change would be noticeable anyhow. It's like, how can one conclude this on non-emotional premises? Psychoanalysis (even though the enneagram has very little to do with the psyche)? Nothing?


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> Yeah, I've just never really felt "8" at anytime of supposed "integration," (not sure what that would entail either - elation???) nor have I ever had issues with 8s to begin with so that any change would be noticeable anyhow. It's like, how can one conclude this on non-emotional premises? Psychoanalysis (even though the enneagram has very little to do with the psyche)? Nothing?


Very notable for me as a six, lifts weight of my chest and I can be care free for a while (integration toward nine). I don't become a nine, I just get the positive traits of a nine that a six really could use.


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## sleepyhead (Nov 14, 2011)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> Ah, okay. Gee, I took that literally, lol. I'm still a bit unsure about the concept of integration from say, head type to gut type (maybe it's true, but I tend to wonder how they come to that conclusion).


A 5 (head type) can benefit from becoming more grounded in their body, more like an 8 (gut types), for one thing. 

Speaking as a 5, I believe I'm fairly healthy and really do show many of the ways a 5 can integrate to parts of the 8. Because my life can become fairly compartmentalized, there are area's that I am much more confident and healthy in than others. At work, for example, I've been at my workplace for a long time with the same staff and I definitely notice how much more input I have in our meetings, how confident I am talking about my projects, I easily volunteer and take charge of different projects, and I have a general sense of ease and confidence at work. 

Overall I'm much more grounded and present in my body - that's one of the biggest and most noticeble changes in how I operate. I can catch myself pulling back into my head and withdrawing and losing connection with my body sometimes. I go through cycles but I feel like my cycles are becoming shorter and easier to manage and recognize. I don't feel so disconnected from the external world and I have good, strong relationships in my life (even if I'm still by far the most withdrawn person I know). It's still hard to move from research mode into action mode but I get there faster than I used to.

There are a lot of area's I still struggle with but there are many places I can see healthy 8 qualities appear more and more in my life. But at my core I am still a 5 - my core issues still have to do with competency and interacting with the outer world instead of observing it from afar. I don't identify with the 8 fears and motivations.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Yes, I understand this - I guess to me, I don't feel it matters, because ultimately I"m not an 8 and will never be one (and how do you force yourself to take on these traits, I dunno, and I don't care - I am what I am and I love what I am and that's that - if I didn't know I was a 5 (or 5-ish), what I'm not, but supposedly should be wouldn't matter to me because I can't detect in any ways any particular personality deficits are holding me back in life (I mean, since this concept is so theoretically "loose," one might as well just incorporate any of the types into their persona to make up for what the system believes to be a "lack" of something). I just don't trust anything that recommends taking on personas - this isn't helping anyone with their first-order personality in any ways - it feels overly PC to me, like you're not good enough unless you can accept that you're like everyone else (which defeats the point of this system at all in my mind - it turns it into a learning about people's personas system - it inherently disregards that every person of the same type has a ton of room for profound difference from each other as well). I dunno, I get it and see the minor parallels, but it all rubs me the wrong way (I'm one of those "just let nature take its course" people - no, that doesn't make me a 9 for the stereotypists out there either, lol).


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@_JungyesMBTIno_

It looks there is a misunderstanding as far as doi/dod go. The implication isn't that you need to take on this "persona" in order to grow as a person. The implication is that you "naturally" move in the direction of your growth arrow. So, as a five you would not integrate in a way that involves resembling the traits of a healthy 2. The theory posits that the direction of integration represents areas that need growth, and as you move in the direction of your growth arrow, you develop qualities that are currently limited by the core fear of your type. The process is described as being a by product of increased awareness and self-work. I will illustrate with an example. 

For Type 8, the core fear is of being controlled/harmed. This core fear leads a kind of psychological and emotional hardening which keeps 8s from being emotionally open, genuinely kind and accepting (in the manner of healthy 2s). As they start to break free of the constraints of the core fear, their generous, more compassionate side emerges (again it resembles the growth in the Type 2 direction. So, this is not about forcing oneself to take on irrelevant traits because the theory says so. As another quick example, Type 9 which has trouble with self-assertion grows to type 3, overcoming the inertia related to its core fears, and becomes more industrious, confident and so on, with self-work and so on. 

You're also free to learn from personal growth strategies, qualities displayed by just about any integrated type if _you think _you could benefit from these. 

Anyway, this is somewhat garbled because I am about to head to bed. I'll edit it for coherence and a few additions later. Hope it made sense.


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## proustian (Aug 16, 2012)

As an introvert E9, my movement towards health and E3 of becoming more confident, industrious etc, seems to imply less introversion and more extroversion. This is the one aspect of moving to the E3 space which I do not understand because I know that I do not have the resources to confidently stand out in a crowd of strangers. It is hard to imagine that I would have ever have those skills. What do others think about moving to being more extroverted or introverted?


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

proustian said:


> As an introvert E9, my movement towards health and E3 of becoming more confident, industrious etc, seems to imply less introversion and more extroversion. This is the one aspect of moving to the E3 space which I do not understand because I know that I do not have the resources to confidently stand out in a crowd of strangers. It is hard to imagine that I would have ever have those skills. What do others think about moving to being more extroverted or introverted?


I agree that going E3 kinda implies Se and Te usage to a certain extent.
You need to deal with the object to get external results.
I think that is why the Enneagram and MBTI are complementary, as MBTI show
you the tools you have to work with after the enneagram have helped you with your
motivational issues.


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## proustian (Aug 16, 2012)

hornet said:


> I agree that going E3 kinda implies Se and Te usage to a certain extent.
> You need to deal with the object to get external results.
> I think that is why the Enneagram and MBTI are complementary, as MBTI show
> you the tools you have to work with after the enneagram have helped you with your
> motivational issues.


Oddly enough I am more comfortable using Te than Se which is probably weird. I feel some optimism watching this clip of Ilona Royce Smith who at 90 "calls herself now an artist but when she was younger had no self-confidence and didn't think she could do anything." She has a very gentle energy about her along with a slight springiness. Could this be E9 with ISFP?


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

proustian said:


> Oddly enough I am more comfortable using Te than Se which is probably weird. I feel some optimism watching this clip of Ilona Royce Smith who at 90 "calls herself now an artist but when she was younger had no self-confidence and didn't think she could do anything." She has a very gentle energy about her along with a slight springiness. Could this be E9 with ISFP?


That was a very interesting vid! =)
I can only type others in MBTI so far so I don't dare to try to spot her E-type.
I could see how she would be ISFP though, I resoneted with what she said a lot.
"You don't die if you don't get the things!" it is just golden! =D


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## proustian (Aug 16, 2012)

hornet said:


> That was a very interesting vid! =)
> I can only type others in MBTI so far so I don't dare to try to spot her E-type.
> I could see how she would be ISFP though, I resoneted with what she said a lot.
> "You don't die if you don't get the things!" it is just golden! =D


I like the way she is extroverted, I find her compelling to watch. She has the confidence to wear her whacky eyelashes and pull off who she is with an inner energy. I identify with her independent thinking, she is fun. In being herself she would have scared off any friends with conformist thinking, and because she has had the courage to state her preferences and wants she has actually lived life!


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

proustian said:


> I like the way she is extroverted, I find her compelling to watch. She has the confidence to wear her whacky eyelashes and pull off who she is with an inner energy. I identify with her independent thinking, she is fun. In being herself she would have scared off any friends with conformist thinking, and because she has had the courage to state her preferences and wants she has actually lived life!


That is the most important part!
The living! =D

Every time I live some, Si types wants me to believe I've made a mistake. :-/


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## proustian (Aug 16, 2012)

hornet said:


> That is the most important part!
> The living! =D
> 
> Every time I live some, Si types wants me to believe I've made a mistake. :-/


Yes, same here. I find that it knocks me around and then I retreat into my unhealthy E9 space. I wonder if Ilona suffered from lacking in self confidence when she was younger because she got the message that she was making mistakes every time she showed her individualistic thinking?


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Here's something I thought of that's important to note about the enneagram: It's not a temperament theory out to explain your disposition issues (e.g. the stereotypes about 8s having anger issues - I mean, I tend to find truth in this IRL with 8s, but...). The issues themselves may surely overlap with the enneagram types, but it's a convenient label for them under whatever number you most relate to, not anything that will actually explain them and why they may upset you so much, etc. (I cringe at most of the 5 explanations about how they react to emotions which come out of nowhere most of the time - oh gawd, I can't relate to that shit). I used to think people thought this was obvious (wishful thinking, as usual), but after spending time in these parts, well, whadd'ya know - you get people reading into this thing like a horoscope. The introspective posts on these issues are absolutely fantastic though!


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