# 835 vs 845



## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

I accidentally posted this on the 8 forum also, but it was meant for the main enneagram forum so I'm posting it now.

I use to think I was an 845 for a while until I started reading about 835. My SO and I both decided that the descriptions of 835 match me much better than the 845 but I shared a lot of similarities with them. I would like to know from anyone's person experience, or even personal theories, on what they think the differences are between the 845/458/584 and 835/358/583.


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## zallla (Oct 11, 2011)

This is just how I've understood it... Applying to every tritype issue:

I think that 3-fixers are way more focused on the image of being competent and successful than 4-fixers who are more focused on the image of being unique and self-expressive. Also, 3-fixers seem more goal-oriented and compulsive about being seen as someone impressive and capable in general (and to differentiate them from 2-fixers, being considered interpersionally capable and friendly is secondary to that) and tend to even be more self-confident than 4-fixers who are a bit more "negative" feeling both superior and inferior, special and defective, to others. 3s are okay to be more inauthentic and externally oriented and want to look good to others, 4s want to look "themselves" whatever that means to them.

In addition, in the case of 835 vs. 845 I'd say that the first is more externally and action-oriented (what being an aggressive type really is) and the second is more introspective and reactive. Take your pick ^__^


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

@_madhatter_ could maybe explain her tritype and her experiences as a 583.

As for myself, the 4 fix makes me very focused on being my authentic self, to be real, to be me, but also to understand myself and know myself (5w4 4w5 logic). I'm not sure I would call it introspection as much as it is a form of self-exploration, especially through art such as poetry, writing or music. It helps to rationalize my feelings in a way that is more comfortable to myself. 

I also want to be seen as good at what I'm doing when I express myself through say, art. I want people to see the uniqueness of my craft, the authenticity of it, the energy and effort I put in and appreciate my art for those qualities. I am not sure how my 4 fix appears otherwise. I can be envious though, but envy is mostly subdued and I do not experience envy that often as a whole.

4 and 8 also operate together and enhance my feelings and I'm prone to being moody despite being core 5. It comes and goes somewhat. Most of the time I'm stuck in what I'd consider a neutral mode, I guess, though. In a way you could say it cancels out some of the negative aspects of the emotional detachment of type 5. When I feel I really feel. I am not sure if someone with their image fix last would share my sentiments, though.


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

I'm a 5-8-3, but 5w4, so I may be able to talk about all four types. Also calling in @_Scelerat_, who is an ENTJ 3w4-5-8. 

My enneagram tritype works like this: 

*5 - Core - *There's a constant desire to know more. I have a difficult time knowing when I've gathered all I need to know about a situation, and when to stop and "do." When I'm feeling good about things, I don't have to work very hard to do this, but there still needs to be a boot in the crack. When I'm in a bad state, I literally do not believe I will be able to handle what's in front, and block out the bad parts, or face them in total shriveled fear, doing only half of it because out of fear I've blocked out the other half out of awareness. On the bright side, what I do know, I know damn well - good models and theories become a lens of existence, and magnify it to a point almost nobody else can see. But this can be a double edged sword, leading to paranoia and distorted thinking, trees, even molecules in the forest. 
*
8 - Fix - *Love to protect other people, make a fingerprint in them and keep them to it. Hate injustice, and fight against it, for the better or worse, without thinking about what could happen as a result. I tend to get in trouble for having the attitude that you aren't above me until you prove it, and lose respect for people who don't show up to the occasion - it wouldn't matter who it was, CEO, parent, you name it. If I think someone doesn't deserve their "title," I'll press buttons to let them and everyone else know I know they're full of crap. It's not elitism, but defense - I'll sit and have a beer with you (or two, or 10) as long as there's no reason to react to bull. 

*3 - Fix - *Success is important to me. Good job, good quality work in whatever I do. May bend persona a bit at times to suit the person, but only for a little while, because anything more is stupid (5), inauthentic (4), and not fair to you (8). 


Scelerat and I have one big difference, as 358 and 583 - he tends to play the sly fox in social situations to keep a sense of worth and what _I _label as likeability in tact. I don't give a flying fuck what you think of me, unless in w4 mode (then it's hypersensitive, but still because of _self_-image). We both love theories and tinkering around with mental models for the purpose of payout - professional, psychological, etc. Either way, 3-5-8 is a hard-nosed, blunt, straight-talking, focused, investigative tritype that wants success. Zuckerburg I've read is a 5-3-8, and maybe Bill Gates, can't remember. I think with 5 core and w4, I'm a little softer/quieter/even scattered at times, and more in touch with human concerns (as would a 4 fixer), but when rubber hits the road this tritype is rough around the edges. 

At the same time we have insecurities about the "unspeakable things" - emotions. You'll have to do your own research to elaborate, not my cup of tea 


EDIT: one other thing to add - I've seen where this tritype is prone to overstrategizing almost everything in their lives. They tend to plot out every move and the variables around them - improve by recognizing their emotions more deeply and facing what they have in the present instead of overplotting.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

835: industrious, efficient powerhouse who never loses- confidence written all over them , strategic
845: introspective, quirky, self-possessed, innovative- the type of person who takes a spiritual approach to body work and studies different cultures for instance


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

Just as a note, I can be quite categorical, and definite in my statements, so some nuance may be lacking. 

*3 Core:* I'm goal oriented, success oriented, and every person who I spend a significant amount of time around get their own version of me, in a sense, I'm whoever I need to be in a situation. This includes my physical appearance, way of dressing, the language used (to a degree, I find it very hard to suppress advanced vocabulary and strong imagery). The "goal" of the image is to get the maximum out of a situation with the least amount of friction and fallout. A challenge faced with varying frequency is "image dissonance" which can be like when you hang out with your friends and your parents at the same time on steroids. I get hit with this less and less, since my images are tailored from one seed now and are more or less versions of me with different abilities played up, a tailored "interest set" for the person in question etc. 

*5 Fix*: The role of 5w6 is to give the "ammunition" for the image, the more information I have about as many topics as possible, the more I can tailor images on the fly, make more adjustments to how I want to be perceived, and tailor the image as I go along with the interaction(s). It also manifests as a strong urge to be competent and knowledgeable and leads to getting hand-written "thank you" notes from Amazon.com. In essence, the stronger my knowledge-base is the better I can adapt what I want to be seen as to suit minute quirks and preferences. The more competent I am, the stronger my chances for success and reaching my goals are. 

*8 Fix:* This manifests in a different way with me and @Figure. He's more likely to "snap" while my "snaps" are more planned. If you see me angry, there is generally a reason why I wanted you to see me angry. My anger is more controlled, and directed over a longer term. I'll take a more Machiavellian approach to conflict and confrontation, since the value of the image always has to be weighted against the desire to bash someone over the head. After all, what is the point of punching someone in the face personally, if you can get someone else to do it for you and thus save yourself the fallout? 

I think the major difference between me and Figure is that he's more comfortable using "brute competence" as his weapon, while I'm more political. Our anger seems equally matched in many ways, but the external manifestation of it is different. He'll confront you head on, whereas I'm perfectly comfortable putting off my revenge if the result of it is magnified. For me direct confrontation is a less desired option.


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## Coburn (Sep 3, 2010)

My guess is the 835 would be more emotionally guarded. Types 3 and 5 both fall in the competency triad; they also tend to be types that neglect their emotional well-being for the sake of other goals. I think a 3 and 5 tritype would act to keep the 8 more reigned in-- at least on an emotional level. In my mind, both types would act on the 8 to give it a powerful presence akin to a "wall." Self-contained but nonetheless strong.

By contrast, an 845 might be more likely to have an intense, outwardly expressive demeanor. Types 4 and 8 fall in the intensity triad; they tend to be the types that act on their heart's desires. I think the emotional bearing of a 4 and 8 would overwhelm the more emotionally withdrawn aspect of the 5 to create a "tsunami" type persona: someone who has a strong energy that is always pushing outwards and overwhelming his/her immediate surrounding.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

@Marlowe that wasn't a bad way of putting it. Yeah, I think it can be tsunami-like when I trust enough. Otherwise it's mostly something I feel inside but I rarely if ever show other people. I'm still core 5 and strong displays of emotion or even admitting that I am or can be emotional is sometimes difficult.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Shadow Logic said:


> I accidentally posted this on the 8 forum also, but it was meant for the main enneagram forum so I'm posting it now.
> I use to think I was an 845 for a while until I started reading about 835. My SO and I both decided that the descriptions of 835 match me much better than the 845 but I shared a lot of similarities with them. I would like to know from anyone's person experience, or even personal theories, on what they think the differences are between the 845/458/584 and 835/358/583.


makes sense you'd be confused. I typically associate 8 with 3 and 5 fixes with an xNTJ 8w7 Sp-dom


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

Figure said:


> EDIT: one other thing to add - I've seen where this tritype is prone to overstrategizing almost everything in their lives. They tend to plot out every move and the variables around them - improve by recognizing their emotions more deeply and facing what they have in the present instead of overplotting.


I'm not sure if Figure is referring to a conversation between he and I the other night, but I thought I'd elaborate a bit since the tendency to overstrategize is somewhat of a flaw of mine. This is how it manifests in 3w4, 5w6, 8w7. 

From my perspective, everything is about the qualities of the image that I've constructed, so any behavior or actions that would contradict the various facets of the image is analyzed to death, then analyzed a bit more, then scenarios are run in my head, then the scenarios analyzed with emphasis on downside risk. Followed by a subjective evaluation on how to eliminate the downside risk while retaining the upside. 

This of course is a fallacy as reward is a function of risk, I.E if there is no risk, there is no reward. However, my ability to see this fallacy does not mean that I'm able to act in spite of it when it comes to certain situations. It results in what I've themed "status quo paralysis" where the status quo is always preferable to the potential upside as the status quo has no downside. 

It's somewhat strange given my normally action-prone personality. 

If this sounds familiar to anyone I'd be interested in exploring it further.


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## DoctorYikes (Nov 22, 2010)

Could argue either for myself on any given day of the week, just within my normal day-to-day variations.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@_Shadow Logic_
Having talked to you more, I think you are DEFINITELY an 835 tritype.

@DoctorYikes
If I had to guess I'd put you at 835 as well.


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## CandyStarlight (Jul 21, 2015)

> ...he tends to play the sly fox in social situations to keep a sense of worth and what _I _label as likeability in tact. I don't give a flying fuck what you think of me, unless in w4 mode (then it's hypersensitive, but still because of _self_-image).


I'm also a 358, but I don't ever play the "sly fox." I believe that's more of a J thing. I'm an ENTP so/sx. And I agree that the w4 is hypersensitive. 



> I think with 5 core and w4, I'm a little softer/quieter/even scattered at times, and more in touch with human concerns (as would a 4 fixer), but when rubber hits the road this tritype is rough around the edges.


Definitely agree with you on this one. I have double 4 wings. And that fuels the protectiveness of the 8, oftentimes. I become almost obsessive, taking injustice inflicted on others quite personally. Rough perfectly describes this tritype; the 358 has a very strong warrior spirit.




> I've seen where this tritype is prone to overstrategizing almost everything in their lives. They tend to plot out every move and the variables around them - improve by recognizing their emotions more deeply and facing what they have in the present instead of overplotting.


I am so glad that you said that. I'm so paranoid that I thought I had a 6 somewhere. Must be the 5; it's been described as the "schizoid mad genius."


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## CandyStarlight (Jul 21, 2015)

> I typically associate 8 with 3 and 5 fixes with an xNTJ 8w7 Sp-dom


Interesting that you would say that. A close friend noted the same thing. As an ENTP 3w4 5w3 8w7 so/sx, I often feel chaotically imbalanced. I switch from the charismatic "best friend" to the moody, strategic "overlord" when I'm stressed, or focused on work. Oftentimes, that leads to a conflict of head and heart choices... For instance, the trusting so/sx wants to be close to that someone, whereas, the 358 quickly becomes suspicious of others' motives. 

Since my SP is non-existent. Nor do I have a 6. And both my tritype, instincts, and MBTI are so dynamic, I often forget to sleep or eat unless I schedule that in somewhere. It's like being punched full of adrenaline but appearing calm, even normal, on the outside. 

That's just how I am. And I can't complain.


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