# Rejection Based Group - Types 2, 5, 8



## n2freedom (Jun 2, 2011)

So, I have another fascination for research which is object relations with regard to the Enneagram. Particularly the Rejection Based Group - Types 2,5, and 8. I have included sample excerpts that I found rather interesting below.

source: Q & A on Object Relations
*Object Relations general information*


> *Q. What is the idea of "object relations" with regard to the Enneagram types?*
> 
> _*A.*_ Object relations are a theory of the ego (and ego development) pioneered in the 1940's and 50's by British psychologists W.R.D. Fairbairn, D.W. Winnicott, Harry Guntrip, and others that has gained widespread acceptance and use in contemporary therapy. The basic idea behind object relations theory is that the ego-self only exists in relation to something else.
> In the first three years of life, we begin to distinguish and separate aspects of our experience, in the process of learning to distinguish our identity from that of others; more about this phenomenon was discovered in the course of studying the interactions of infants with their mothers. In the 1970's, psychologist Margaret Mahler and her colleagues ran extensive studies on how a baby's sense of identity developed; they learned that initially the baby cannot distinguish herself from her mother or from anything else, for that matter. The baby's consciousness exists in what is called an "undifferentiated state." There is only immediate experience without a distinct sense of a separate self. Gradually, the baby recognizes that her universe consists of a self and someone else (of course, the mother, or "the nurturing figure"). The baby then begins to separate some of its many experiences and qualities, assigning some to herself and some to the other. Further, psychologists learned that this unconscious pattern remained active as the ground for all the subsequent developments of the personality.
> ...


*From a different forum:*


> Something I remember from a workshop regarding "rejection types"...to summarize:
> 
> 8s: "I'm don't need protection, I'm the big protector...why would I need protecting?"
> When 8s take control, others might leave. They may not be aware of feeling rejected in the moment, but they notice others leaving, and later are aware of feeling rejected.
> ...




*From a PDF article...forgot to keep the link*



> *Rejection Object Relation (Types 2,5,8)*
> People with the rejection object relation feel that they have been rejected by others. Others don't care about their needs, so they reject their own needs too. Consequently, their relationships often have issues of not wanting to be nurtured or touched. Despite feeling rejected, they feel they only have one gift to offer to prevent future rejection. Their sense of self is based on countering this rejection by offering their talent.
> *Twos *
> Twos reject their own needs, their own negative thoughts and emotions. The Two offers the only gift she has left: her heart. She focuses on the needs of others and helping, caring, and nurturing them. Twos try to love others so much that others won't reject them. Twos base their sense of self on putting their own needs aside (rejection) and caring for others.
> ...


I can see this within myself and the twos and fives I know in real life. Your thoughts?


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

> Something I remember from a workshop regarding "rejection types"...to summarize:





> 8s: "I'm don't need protection, I'm the big protector...why would I need protecting?"
> When 8s take control, others might leave.* They may not be aware of feeling rejected in the moment, but they notice others leaving, and later are aware of feeling rejected.*
> 8s reject guidance/fathering/protection.


 The bolded, it BURNS. 



> 2s: "I don't need to be nurtured. I'm the nurturer." 2s reject nurturing from others.
> When 2s control others through nurturing, others reject them.


 Even though my heart fix is last, I suppose I do have a bit of this "flavor" to me. Though, I mostly reject being nurtured because it makes me feel weak; if I need nurturing than that's equivalent to being out of control and that makes me vulnerable. Nope, I can take care of myself thank-you-very-much. I do know quite a number of core 2's, and this made me realize I've never heard them mention nurturing, at all.





> ejection Object Relation (Types 2,5,8)
> Twos
> Twos reject their own needs, their own negative thoughts and emotions. The Two offers the only gift she has left: her heart. She focuses on the needs of others and helping, caring, and nurturing them. Twos try to love others so much that others won't reject them. *Twos base their sense of self on putting their own needs aside (rejection) and caring for others.*


 The bolded, especially, is something I've observed in the 2's I know- It's really hard to watch someone go through that; even though I have 2 of my heart fix, it's something I really can't comprehend. 



> Eights
> Eights reject their own needs (especially their emotional, vulnerable side). The Eight only has one gift left to prevent further rejection: her strength and will. Eights believe in their power and know that others can turn to them from strength and leadership.* Eights expect to be rejected, but because they are so "tough," they give the appearance of being able to handle it.*


 This actually made me giggle a bit when I read it, since I've said a form of the bolded to myself on MANY occasions. I do, very much, expect to be rejected by others; so that in itself is a form of defense- because, how can you be knocked over by something you expect? 
This reminds me of a particular instance in my childhood when I left a message on friend's voicemail machine saying _"And if you don't want to play, I don't care"_ or something pretty similar. My parent overheard the message and INSISTED I call back and leave a message apologizing. I tried to tell my parent that I meant no harm. I seriously wasn't trying to sound all "bada**" about the situation nor hurt the recipients feelings. It was my way of saying _"If you want to hang out, let's hang out- if not, that's ok"_. It honestly made no difference to me whatsoever if this person hung out with me; and I definitely wasn't trying to be "rude" or anything of the sort- my parents reaction was rather frustrating (and uncalled for) to my little childhood self. Reading this, it's painfully aware to me that this was an example of fear of rejection coming into play. 

And yeah, just a little example of my double rejection tritype creepin' in my early childhood. .


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## n2freedom (Jun 2, 2011)

voicetrocity said:


> The bolded, it BURNS.
> 
> Even though my heart fix is last, I suppose I do have a bit of this "flavor" to me. Though, I mostly reject being nurtured because it makes me feel weak; if I need nurturing than that's equivalent to being out of control and that makes me vulnerable. Nope, I can take care of myself thank-you-very-much. I do know quite a number of core 2's, and this made me realize I've never heard them mention nurturing, at all.
> 
> ...




Thanks for your feedback. I googled it because for the longest time I thought I had an issue with fear of abandonment. But, the more I have been digging the more I realize it's not fear of abandonment as I don't allow myself to "depend" on someone else being around. It took all this going back and forward, on and off, push and pull, hot and cold, non-relationship with a type 5 that I have plastered PerC talking about to realize it is indeed fear of rejection. 

I mis-intepret his shutting down/withdrawing all the time as lack of interest and signs that he's going to leave so I preempt the "perceived" rejection by calling it quits and/or starting some shit. I read this phrase somewhere it has resonated with me every since..."reject the rejector". I have basically lived by that phrase. I'm trying to deal with this issue of vulnerability and rejection and all the ego-defenses I put up to guard against it. But, it's almost like a knee jerk reaction for me. IDK.

Anyway, I appreciate your feedback. BTW .... I told my co-worker about it when it says a Two says to themselves..."I don't need you...you need me" and all she could do was laugh because hit home as the truth with her. Too funny. I'm interested in learning more about this concept. Looks like I'm going to be adding yet another Enneagram book. LOL!


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

n2freedom said:


> Thanks for your feedback. I googled it because for the longest time I thought I had an issue with fear of abandonment.
> But, the more I have been digging the more I realize it's not fear of abandonment as I don't allow myself to "depend" on someone else being around. It took all this going back and forward, on and off, push and pull, hot and cold, non-relationship with a type 5 that I have plastered PerC talking about to realize it is indeed fear of rejection.


 Holy Sh*t! I've thought the same exact thing except I usually say I'm "commitment phobic" or something like that. As it turns out, I'm just gay with a double shot of rejection expectation. 



> I mis-intepret his shutting down/withdrawing all the time as lack of interest and signs that he's going to leave so I preempt the "perceived" rejection by calling it quits and/or starting some shit. I read this phrase somewhere it has resonated with me every since..."reject the rejector". I have basically lived by that phrase. I'm trying to deal with this issue of vulnerability and rejection and all the ego-defenses I put up to guard against it. But, it's almost like a knee jerk reaction for me. IDK.


 Yeah, I wish I had more valuable feedback to give, but I'm dealing with quite similar issues. The fact that it's a knee jerk reaction doesn't help, I know; it takes a LOT of work to penetrate and change something that deeply held. I know it'll be impossible for me to get over these things for anyone other than someone who is "worth it". I know it's not impossible for me to surpass my defense mechanisms- I have wonderful people in my life who are proof of that; and I know the person who makes it to the point my close friends/family have will be wonderful and worth it too. It just, of course, takes a lot of work (which is another issue in itself for me, since I'm not about to work for someone I have any less than fire-worthy feelings for).



> Anyway, I appreciate your feedback. BTW .... I told my co-worker about it when it says a Two says to themselves..."I don't need you...you need me" and all she could do was laugh because hit home as the truth with her. Too funny. I'm interested in learning more about this concept. Looks like I'm going to be adding yet another Enneagram book. LOL!


That's very funny about your coworker, and I appreciate you starting this thread! I definitely learned something from it.


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## n2freedom (Jun 2, 2011)

voicetrocity said:


> except I usually say I'm "commitment phobic" or something like that.


Yep! I have said that one too. It's frustrating and it's getting very old....I really hope I can figure this thing out. I have sabotage a lot of good potential relationships due to my crazy way of dealing with things. As a matter fact, looking back on past relationships....I tend to be attracted to and at home with dealing other "commitment phobics" and/or men who stay just without of reach. I get where you are coming from with it would have to be with some really, really worth it.

Each time I think I'm ready .... I prove to myself otherwise. *deep sighs*


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

So what happens if that's my tritype exactly (well 5-2-8).


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## Grau the Great (Mar 2, 2012)

n2freedom said:


> Thanks for your feedback. I googled it because for the longest time I thought I had an issue with fear of abandonment. But, the more I have been digging the more I realize it's not fear of abandonment as I don't allow myself to "depend" on someone else being around. It took all this going back and forward, on and off, push and pull, hot and cold, non-relationship with a type 5 that I have plastered PerC talking about to realize it is indeed fear of rejection.
> 
> *I mis-intepret his shutting down/withdrawing all the time as lack of interest and signs that he's going to leave so I preempt the "perceived" rejection by calling it quits and/or starting some shit.* I read this phrase somewhere it has resonated with me every since..._*"reject the rejector"*_. I have basically lived by that phrase. I'm trying to deal with this *issue of vulnerability and rejection and all the ego-defenses I put up to guard against it.* But, it's almost like a knee jerk reaction for me. IDK.
> 
> Anyway, I appreciate your feedback. BTW .... I told my co-worker about it when it says a Two says to themselves..."I don't need you...you need me" and all she could do was laugh because hit home as the truth with her. Too funny. I'm interested in learning more about this concept. Looks like I'm going to be adding yet another Enneagram book. LOL!


Wow, this is something that makes a lot of sense to me. Everything that's bolded in particular. I think this is a particular problem for sx 8s, as pretty much every relationship I've been in has been pretty damn crappy, and has strongly resembled what you described above: _push/pull, hot/cold,_ etc. 

I've never been very close to a type 5, but most of the girls I've gone out with have likely been either Type 9s or Type 6w7s, so most of them had similar habits of arbitrarily withdrawing/backing off from me, or otherwise being generally indecisive. I'd always regarded my reaction as impatience, though now it makes a lot of sense to me that at some level I interpreted their behavior as indicating an imminent rejection, and would usually sabotage the relationship on my own, even if I really cared about the other person. _'At least they didn't get the satisfaction of shooting me down'_ was how my thought process went.

Funny, I was actually just thinking about this this morning, about how friends' reliance on me is usually related to extremely practical things, and that's it. I've always known that most of the girls I've been either in relationships with or seeking relationships with had been holding back a lot, and hadn't opened up to me and been truthful about the more negative sides of their personalities, which are present in everyone. I regarded it as insulting, that they weren't being truthful with me, and that as a result they either didn't trust me, or that I must've been a temporary 'placeholder' interest of theirs, until a better option came along. Cue the reaction that destroys any potential of a long term relationship pre-emptively.

Now though, the more that I read this and think about it, I realize... why would they? The issue of vulnerability is so ingrained in me that I don't even notice it anymore, but others certainly do, and close friends have told me it's very apparent that I keep everyone at arms' length, no matter how trustworthy I consider them. It's a bit of a downer to realize that something that's frustrated me for so long is primarily due to something _*I*_ was doing, and didn't even realize.

Ugh, this stuff is a pain.


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## n2freedom (Jun 2, 2011)

Grau the Great said:


> Wow, this is something that makes a lot of sense to me. Everything that's bolded in particular. I think this is a particular problem for sx 8s, as pretty much every relationship I've been in has been pretty damn crappy, and has strongly resembled what you described above: _push/pull, hot/cold,_ etc.
> 
> I've never been very close to a type 5, but most of the girls I've gone out with have likely been either Type 9s or Type 6w7s, so most of them had similar habits of arbitrarily withdrawing/backing off from me, or otherwise being generally indecisive. I'd always regarded my reaction as impatience, though now it makes a lot of sense to me that at some level I interpreted their behavior as indicating an imminent rejection, and would usually sabotage the relationship on my own, even if I really cared about the other person. _'At least they didn't get the satisfaction of shooting me down'_ was how my thought process went.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your candidness and transparency. I had a three year casual relationship with a 9 so I get where you are coming from. I tell you what if you figure this all out...please let me know. :wink:


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## Ellis Bell (Mar 16, 2012)

*



Fives reject and minimize their own needs (especially their physical and emotional ones). The Five has only one gift left: her head. Fives offer their intelligence and expertise to others, hoping that others will appreciate their knowledge. By building up their own expertise, Fives seek to become important enough not to be rejected further. Fives, having cut off their emotional needs, try to not need others, to be independent, and to not need love. Fives believe that their lack of emotion will shield them from the pain of further rejection.

5s reject nurturing and protection and control their circumstances through rejection of the needs for support, nurturing and protection. Their rejection of the need for others results in "no-connection" and sets up passive 
rejection by others.

Click to expand...

Everything underlined is true for me. I wonder if, by prematurely rejecting others before they reject us (2s, 5s, and 8s), that we intentionally or unintentionally set ourselves up for self-sabotage? *


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## n2freedom (Jun 2, 2011)

tanstaafl28 said:


> So what happens if that's my tritype exactly (well 5-2-8).


You know I don't subscribe to tritype ... but I guess that means you are triple rejection....perhaps three times more likely to be sensitive rejection. IDK.


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## n2freedom (Jun 2, 2011)

kasthu said:


> *
> 
> Everything underlined is true for me. I wonder if, by prematurely rejecting others before they reject us (2s, 5s, and 8s), that we intentionally or unintentionally set ourselves up for self-sabotage? *


Great question. That's the ironic thing about fixations and fears the very thing we are trying to avoid within our core types and using ego-defenses to protect ourselves from....ironically yes I do believe we intentionally/unintentionally set ourselves up for self-sabotage. As least as I reflect on some of my past choices...it has been the case for me.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

n2freedom said:


> You know I don't subscribe to tritype ... but I guess that means you are triple rejection....perhaps three times more likely to be sensitive rejection. IDK.


I had forgotten. People seem to vary so much, I'm all for adding more variables to explain them. Makes them/their ideas more interesting.


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## Muser (Jul 17, 2011)

_5s: "I dont' need nurturance and I don't need protection. I don't really need anything from anyone. 
5s reject nurturing and protection and control their circumstances through rejection of the needs for support, nurturing and protection. Their rejection of the need for others results in "no-connection" and sets up passive 
rejection by others.
_

_*Fives 
Fives reject and minimize their own needs (especially their physical and emotional ones). Fives, having cut off their emotional needs, try to not need others, to be independent, and to not need love. Fives believe that their lack of emotion will shield them from the pain of further rejection.*
_

Wow, this really hits it for me. I reject others so they don't have a chance to reject me...because I believe they eventually will. They'll realise I'm not _____ enough and seek another. Why should I put myself in that position? Bah, I don't need them anyway. Actually, I don't want anyone to need me either. I can do without that burden and pressure. The last thing I want is for someone to think I'm vulnerable to/dependent on/affected by them. 
I don't see the big deal about relationships and don't see it as a club I'm invited to anyway.

Sorry for the self-indulgent monologue.


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## n2freedom (Jun 2, 2011)

Muser said:


> _5s: "I dont' need nurturance and I don't need protection. I don't really need anything from anyone.
> 5s reject nurturing and protection and control their circumstances through rejection of the needs for support, nurturing and protection. Their rejection of the need for others results in "no-connection" and sets up passive
> rejection by others.
> _
> ...


Thanks for sharing. I hope more Twos, Fives, and Eights will share their thoughts on this subject.


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## Grau the Great (Mar 2, 2012)

n2freedom said:


> Thanks for your candidness and transparency. I had a three year casual relationship with a 9 so I get where you are coming from. I tell you what if you figure this all out...please let me know. :wink:


Well, for better or worse, I think a lot of it has to do with simply being sx 8w7. Think about it: the Eight disintegrates to Five, which only increases the tendency to withdraw to avoid vulnerability and at the same time stew in isolated anger over perceived problems. At the same time, the seven disintegrates to one, meaning that the Seven-ish competitiveness and unhealthy seven tendency to consider "having missed out" combines with Type One, adding in an increasingly vindictive moralism and attempt to be right and take the moral high ground. This One-ish tendency is of course informed by the core Eight motivations of vulnerability and control, so the end result is often distorted attacks to 'win' a perceived conflict, even if in reality that means alienating a potential friend/partner. I've thought about this recently, and this dynamic describes me exactly, uncomfortably so to be honest.

Beyond that, I've had plenty of struggles in most other areas of life, too, whether family, work, school, whatever. But in these areas I've always been able to roll with the punches and keep moving towards my objective, no matter what came up. It's only been a deteriorating relationship that's been able to send me into a spiral, and actually most of those problems I've encountered in work and school are the result of a simultaneous collapsing relationship, where the disintegration 'spilled over' into other areas of my life. I was still able to handle them, but it's a reality that this one part of life can cause an immense amount of damage, while most others cause barely any.

Now for a 'solution'. I've thought about this for awhile, and you might not want to hear this. But the best I can think of as a solution is simple forgiveness. Being able to let go, lower your barriers, and forgive your partner for perceived wrongdoings and threats. Despite the simplicity of it, it's nearly impossible if you think similarly to me; I can hardly ever force myself to think this way, nevermind consistently. Every time I think I'm able to, soon after I'll return back to how I think by default, where more than anything else I want fairness for all these crappy years, and how I believe I've lost out compared to most others.

It's the equivalent of climbing a cliff, but I'm convinced that that's what's necessary for success with this sort of thing, at least for a relatively average/unhealthy sx 8w7 with bad experiences in the past.


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## n2freedom (Jun 2, 2011)

see comments below in blue


Grau the Great said:


> Well, for better or worse, I think a lot of it has to do with simply being sx 8w7. Think about it: the Eight disintegrates to Five, which only increases the tendency to withdraw to avoid vulnerability and at the same time stew in isolated anger over perceived problems. Yep, I definitely do this. At the same time, the seven disintegrates to one, meaning that the Seven-ish competitiveness and unhealthy seven tendency to consider "having missed out" combines with Type One, adding in an increasingly vindictive moralism and attempt to be right and take the moral high ground. This One-ish tendency is of course informed by the core Eight motivations of vulnerability and control, so the end result is often distorted attacks to 'win' a perceived conflict, even if in reality that means alienating a potential friend/partner. I've thought about this recently, and this dynamic describes me exactly, uncomfortably so to be honest. Do the wings integrate/disintegrate?
> 
> Beyond that, I've had plenty of struggles in most other areas of life, too, whether family, work, school, whatever. But in these areas I've always been able to roll with the punches and keep moving towards my objective, no matter what came up. It's only been a deteriorating relationship that's been able to send me into a spiral, and actually most of those problems I've encountered in work and school are the result of a simultaneous collapsing relationship, where the disintegration 'spilled over' into other areas of my life. I was still able to handle them, but it's a reality that this one part of life can cause an immense amount of damage, while most others cause barely any. Funny you should say this "spill over" ... you are exactly right. I do this too. I can definitely roll with the punches in general but whenever I'm in a relationship that is troubling me so to speak...I'm short fused in other areas of my life. The more I care about someone the more hypersensitive I am to their every move and/or response to me. And, the more "obsessed" I become with them. I have gotten a wee bit better since learning about the Enneagram but still have a very very long way to go. I also like your choice of word "spiral" as in that is what I call it a downward spiral and/or emotional tailspin.
> 
> ...


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## Navi (Jul 8, 2012)

n2freedom said:


> Thanks for sharing. I hope more Twos, Fives, and Eights will share their thoughts on this subject.


I'm a 5w6, 8w7, 2w1. 

I'll add my thoughts on this.


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## livicote (Aug 24, 2012)

I am a type five and I would say that not only do I reject my needs, but my needs sincerely are lower to begin with. For me, it stems from my confidence and my hopes for finding people to whom I can better relate in the future (that's usually my reason for rejecting people.) Of course, the problem with this logic is that those people may never show up.


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## reletative (Dec 17, 2010)

n2freedom:3145110 said:


> 5s: "I dont' need nurturance and I don't need protection. I don't really need anything from anyone.
> 5s reject nurturing and protection and control their circumstances through rejection of the needs for support, nurturing and protection. Their rejection of the need for others results in "no-connection" and sets up passive
> rejection by others.


This is dead on for me


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## reletative (Dec 17, 2010)

livicote:3148814 said:


> I am a type five and I would say that not only do I reject my needs, but my needs sincerely are lower to begin with. For me, it stems from my confidence and my hopes for finding people to whom I can better relate in the future (that's usually my reason for rejecting people.) Of course, the problem with this logic is that those people may never show up.


I really agree with this. My needs are lesser then those of my ENFJ 6 husband. For a while i actually had some resentment over this, because i felt it was too imbalanced for our relationship


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