# Distinctions in the Withdrawn Triad



## MBTI Enthusiast (Jan 29, 2011)

I just had a lightbulb moment. I've been spending a lot of time on the ISTJ forum trying to distinguish 9s and 5s. An interesting and clear distinction I think I've found is that the term "withdrawing into your mind" doesn't resonate with 9s. 9s are in the withdrawn triad, but we don't necessarily withdraw "into our minds". If at all possible, we withdraw physically and if we can't withdraw physically, we numb ourselves to the situation. It doesn't mean our minds are working when we withdraw, as the statement implies. We just kinda sit there thinking, "Stop, stop, stop." Also, 9s, being the center of the gut triad, are oriented both inside and outside. We want inner peace and outer peace. Going inside our minds isn't going to stop the outer conflict; we need to retreat physically and/or ignore it.

On the other hand, 5s very much relate to "withdrawing into the mind."

I think I've discovered a clear way to distinguish the 3 types in the withdrawn triad (4s, 5s, and 9s). This will help tremendously with typing, because before this, any of the 3 types could claim that they resonate with the concept of "withdrawing" and thus it got very confusing and difficult to type others accurately. 

*My hypothesis: Perhaps when 4s withdraw, they withdraw into their emotions, into their HEART. When 5s withdraw, they withdraw into their mind, into their HEAD. And when 9s withdraw, they withdraw into their body, into their GUT.*

4s, 5s, and 9s - Can you relate to this? Do you think it is a valid distinction? Discuss, please! :happy:


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

This is by Riso and Hudson:



> The withdrawns include types Four, Five and Nine. All three types respond to stress by moving away from engagement with the world and into an "inner space" in their imagination. Nines withdraw into a safe and carefree Inner Sanctum, Fours withdraw into a romantic and idealization Fantasy Self, and Fives withdraw into a complex and cerebral Inner Tinker Toy. In common language, they can all "zone out" and go into their imaginations very easily. These types have problems with staying in their physicality and with getting out of their imaginations and into action.


I don't know about other withdrawn types, but when I withdraw, I start to imagine a different scenario, maybe where I'm more socially competent, and I'm not as awkward. I picture myself going around effortlessly from person to person and fitting in, or perhaps not feeling so different. It's about how things could be if I wasn't so ______ and _______, and if I was more ______ and _______. A lot of the time, my Fantasy Self takes up a lot of my thoughts, which leads to this sense of envy and longing - envy at those who possess the qualities I lack, and longing because of my inability to have those.

Another thing, and this is related to the Hornevian Groups: Fours withdraw to get attention from others whereas Nines withdraw to get autonomy (in an indirect, kind of passive way). Fives withdraw for security ("I will be safe if I stay away from others").


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## Tucken (Dec 13, 2009)

*9* I withdraw _physically_ and numb myself with foods to get away from 'everything'. All that which complicates life for me. Many things are overwhelming to me, perhaps because I'm social last. These complications have me annoyed and irritated. That's why I have to withdraw, because they make me mad. It is more than I can deal with. 

I have *4* in my tri-type. I shut myself in and nurture/maintain dark feelings. I feel, brood powerful emotions. It is OK for people to hmm, _try_ and bring me out of it. But I may just want to sulk and blame them instead.. For instance - as a child I would shut myself in my room until someone came to make amends and a bit more(2 father to the rescue :wink. Or I'd cross my arms and sulk and show I was not happy. I often walk around and stir powerful feelings inside, to the point where I almost burst, sometimes I do. I like to balance that fine vibrating line between the two when emotions are at its peak. 
I withdraw 'from people' and my heart storm powerful emotions. To feel powerful?


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## Arrow (Mar 2, 2012)

MBTI Enthusiast said:


> On the other hand, 5s very much relate to "withdrawing into the mind."
> 
> *My hypothesis: Perhaps when 4s withdraw, they withdraw into their emotions, into their HEART. When 5s withdraw, they withdraw into their mind, into their HEAD. And when 9s withdraw, they withdraw into their body, into their GUT.*


I see a lot of overlap here in terms of how this could be viewed just as imagination. I am wondering if 7's could relate to this any because I think 7's and 9's can look a lot like each other in this department where they look so similar in terms of fantasizing. I also think this could confuse 4's and 5's too in terms of having them withdraw inside into their heads.

While I was reading it I kept thinking about how I withdraw from the world and I very much think of my withdrawing from the outside as going into my head and imaging different worlds or possibilities. I think a further definition of the 4 and the 5 could be beneficial.

In terms of not having my needs met I mostly just think of a better place then I am in right now. I think about how things could be better. I imagine how my life would be like if I was another person. I imagine all of the possible lives that I could have that are better then my reality because my reality is not sufficient and kind of sucks. I just imagine a better world that is just better then what is right in front of me. I imagine success, I imagine fame, I imagine fortune, excess, luxury, I imagine a better life that I should have but don't. I imagine that I have adoring followers, fans, I imagine fame, I imagine being around "better" others, I imagine flying away from my reality -- because what I am imagining is better then what is. 

I wouldn't say I withdraw and retreat to my emotions, so much as my emotions and feelings guide me into other thoughts like a stream carries leaves down to another water source. It's still based on not having an emotional need met, which is the driving force but the coping mechanism is the aim to feel better and indulge threw fantasy. My fantasy life is awesome, my fantasy friend is awesome, my fantasy mate is awesome, etc. But yeah I guess you could say I feel a bit like it's an escapism to a better world, a world that I am apart of and a world that is just for me that recognizes how awesome I am. It's an idealized constructed world just for me to give me what I need at the moment, since I am not getting it from others.


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## huahuafood (Aug 25, 2012)

WOW!!! Nice Post!Kind Regards.


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## The Nth Doctor (May 18, 2012)

I'm thinking that I am a 9 now, and this makes sense. When I'm unhappy, I get involved in another world. My mind is no good in that respect because it can't keep away from whatever it is I'm trying to avoid. My emotions, in my perception, are silly and irrelevant.

I remember a certain pattern from my childhood well. I would go to my room, angry or unhappy. I would sit and be angry or miserable for a few minutes. Then I would pick up a book, and even if I was reading through tears at first after a chapter I would be fine again - embarrassing excess emotion put behind me, wrapped up in someone else's experiences.


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## sleepyhead (Nov 14, 2011)

kaleidoscope said:


> Another thing, and this is related to the Hornevian Groups: Fours withdraw to get attention from others whereas Nines withdraw to get autonomy (in an indirect, kind of passive way). Fives withdraw for security ("I will be safe if I stay away from others").


I think this is a good summary. 

When I withdraw I do so from the outside world. If I'm around other people, I'll be narrating or commentating what's happening in front of me. If I'm able to physically leave, I usually will. My mind is usually occupied with how the outside world is affecting me, rather than what I'm doing wrong or how I'm appearing to others. In the past I have spent a lot of time in my inner world because it gives me feelings of competency and power. In high school and university when I was bored sometimes I would just sit there and be completely non-present, lost in my inner world. When I was at my most unhealthy I used to almost be excited to go to bed because it meant I would have no intrusions and I could just enjoy my inner world and my space and safety from others.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

@sleepyhead

I would probably leave as well, if I really felt like I didn't belong. I can't tell you how many times I've been to social gatherings, and ended up either leaving early or just sitting outside feeling like a total outsider. The thoughts I'd have were along the lines of "I don't fit in here. I can't relate to these people."

I think to us withdrawn types, our inner world is safe. For a frustration type like me, my inner world is safe from disappointment and disenchantment. Things happen the way I want them to, and it triggers powerful emotions in me that the real world often fails to generate inside me. For Nines, I assume their inner world is safe because it's free of conflict, and not likely to provoke in them the aggressive responses they fear having. It guarantees inner peace. For Fives, their inner world is secure to them because they won't be confronted with feelings of incompetency.


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## Kito (Jan 6, 2012)

The Nth Doctor said:


> I remember a certain pattern from my childhood well. I would go to my room, angry or unhappy. I would sit and be angry or miserable for a few minutes. Then I would pick up a book, and even if I was reading through tears at first after a chapter I would be fine again - embarrassing excess emotion put behind me, wrapped up in someone else's experiences.


I get what you mean there. I still do that sometimes, I'll be annoyed, angry, upset or whatever at first, but then I'll do something else and try to numb it out. The feeling doesn't go away, but it's no longer in control of me, if that makes sense.

I like this idea, though. When you say 9s withdraw into their body... that's a different way of putting it, but I kinda like it.


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## MBTI Enthusiast (Jan 29, 2011)

Thanks for your replies, everyone! It's important to discuss these things because I really believe there are subtle nuances that change these definitions for each type. Sometimes you can't know what these are without being the type yourself!

Some new angles I've thought of: 

1) I think this relates a lot to what the Faurves teach about tritypes. They said that the triads matter for how you deal with everyday situations. For example, me being a 9-3-6 means I tend to ACT, then FEEL, then THINK. And it cycles repeatedly. That's why I thought it would make a lot of sense for 9s to first withdraw into action, 4s to first withdraw into feelings, and 5s to first withdraw into thoughts.

2) I'm not sure if this applies, but it's another interesting thought. For me, as a 9, when I withdraw into action, I also tend to _ignore_ my feelings and thoughts. I'm not sure if 4s tend to ignore actions and thoughts, or if 5s tend to ignore actions and feelings during the initial stages.



kaleidoscope said:


> This is by Riso and Hudson:
> 
> Another thing, and this is related to the Hornevian Groups: Fours withdraw to get attention from others whereas Nines withdraw to get autonomy (in an indirect, kind of passive way). Fives withdraw for security ("I will be safe if I stay away from others").


Thanks for that RH definition. I hadn't seen that before, or if I had, it's been a while. :wink: While that may be true, I think there is still something to my hypothesis. I don't really retreat into my "fantasies" unless things get really bad, or after I've withdrawn for some time physically. My first instinct is to walk away, pursue some mindless activity. When someone is arguing right in front of me, it's not enough to sit there and think about a waterfall (exaggerating, obviously). I can't just retreat into my mind, even if it's my "inner sanctum", when there is conflict in front of me.

The latter is another good distinction, which also relates to the normal triads. 4s withdraw to strengthen their image, 9s withdraw to strengthen their ego boundaries, and 5s withdraw to lessen their anxiety. Awesome!



Tucken said:


> I have *4* in my tri-type. I shut myself in and nurture/maintain dark feelings. I feel, brood powerful emotions. It is OK for people to hmm, _try_ and bring me out of it. But I may just want to sulk and blame them instead..


This is what I presumed 4s would resonate with. I assumed they withdrew to be alone with their emotions first and foremost. To brood and amplify them with their imagination.



Arrow said:


> I see a lot of overlap here in terms of how this could be viewed just as imagination. I am wondering if 7's could relate to this any because I think 7's and 9's can look a lot like each other in this department where they look so similar in terms of fantasizing. I also think this could confuse 4's and 5's too in terms of having them withdraw inside into their heads.
> 
> While I was reading it I kept thinking about how I withdraw from the world and I very much think of my withdrawing from the outside as going into my head and imaging different worlds or possibilities. I think a further definition of the 4 and the 5 could be beneficial.


See, I don't really relate to the fantasizing and imagination aspect as much as some 9s, possibly because I'm an ISTJ. I think you'll have to expand on what might be confusing between 7 and 9.

As for 4 and 5, that's exactly the trap I was trying to avoid. Everyone says, "The 4, 5, and 9 withdraw into their heads", especially if they are introverted. I've found that while that phrase sounds good on the surface for 9s, it's actually not that accurate. I figured 4s would feel similarly. I hoped that they would find that they don't truly withdraw "into their heads" when they think about it. I think it's hard for 4s because it's difficult to withdraw into their emotions without a little help from the mind. Especially since 4s are known for amplifying their emotions through imagination. Since I am not a 4 or 5, I don't know what they actually experience, but I'm trying to find a definition that most in the Withdrawn Triad can agree with. 



Arrow said:


> I wouldn't say I withdraw and retreat to my emotions, so much as my emotions and feelings guide me into other thoughts like a stream carries leaves down to another water source. It's still based on not having an emotional need met, which is the driving force but the coping mechanism is the aim to feel better and indulge threw fantasy. My fantasy life is awesome, my fantasy friend is awesome, my fantasy mate is awesome, etc. But yeah I guess you could say I feel a bit like it's an escapism to a better world, a world that I am apart of and a world that is just for me that recognizes how awesome I am. It's an idealized constructed world just for me to give me what I need at the moment, since I am not getting it from others.


Thanks for describing it for us. I'll have to think on that a bit more.


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## MBTI Enthusiast (Jan 29, 2011)

The Nth Doctor said:


> I'm thinking that I am a 9 now, and this makes sense. When I'm unhappy, I get involved in another world. My mind is no good in that respect because it can't keep away from whatever it is I'm trying to avoid. My emotions, in my perception, are silly and irrelevant.
> 
> I remember a certain pattern from my childhood well. I would go to my room, angry or unhappy. I would sit and be angry or miserable for a few minutes. Then I would pick up a book, and even if I was reading through tears at first after a chapter I would be fine again - embarrassing excess emotion put behind me, wrapped up in someone else's experiences.


You very well could be a 9. That sounds exactly what I mean by "retreating into your body" and ignoring your mind and heart. You aren't thinking when reading, you are DOING. You are just reading along, not thinking about much, getting absorbed into it in order to further distance your heart and mind. Some 9s are able to do this by listening to music, some are able to do this by going for a bike ride, some are able to do this by just sitting there, unable to think or feel.

Thanks for your input!



kaleidoscope said:


> @sleepyhead
> 
> I would probably leave as well, if I really felt like I didn't belong. I can't tell you how many times I've been to social gatherings, and ended up either leaving early or just sitting outside feeling like a total outsider. The thoughts I'd have were along the lines of "I don't fit in here. I can't relate to these people."
> 
> I think to us withdrawn types, our inner world is safe. For a frustration type like me, my inner world is safe from disappointment and disenchantment. Things happen the way I want them to, and it triggers powerful emotions in me that the real world often fails to generate inside me. For Nines, I assume their inner world is safe because it's free of conflict, and not likely to provoke in them the aggressive responses they fear having. It guarantees inner peace. For Fives, their inner world is secure to them because they won't be confronted with feelings of incompetency.


See, I think your earlier description describes WHY we withdraw, while I'm trying to distinguish HOW we withdraw.


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## proustian (Aug 16, 2012)

When I get entangled among factions waring around me, I withdraw into an inner anxious 'stop, stop, stop'. The next tier of disengagement after the initial inner panic, is to move back from the hostility, become an observer and let my mind 'float over' the voices. The floaty thing never seems to accomplish any of the supposed peacekeeping I am supposed to do as an E9, but I feel better when I am there, and is better than 'being' in their argumentative head space :-D 

Afterwards when I am alone, I can recall the moods that were generated as floaty, powerful, atmospheric pictures.


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## MBTI Enthusiast (Jan 29, 2011)

proustian said:


> When I get entangled among factions waring around me, I withdraw into an inner anxious 'stop, stop, stop'. The next tier of disengagement after the initial inner panic, is to move back from the hostility, become an observer and let my mind 'float over' the voices. The floaty thing never seems to accomplish any of the supposed peacekeeping I am supposed to do as an E9, but I feel better when I am there, and is better than 'being' in their argumentative head space :-D
> 
> Afterwards when I am alone, I can recall the moods that were generated as floaty, powerful, atmospheric pictures.


I can't really relate to that. It sounds a lot like the detachment of the 5. :shocked:



MBTI Enthusiast said:


> *Detachment*
> 
> Fives can go public and still be distant. When thought is unhooked from feeling, you can watch emotional events. You don’t need closed doors or elaborate ways to avoid entanglement when you can detach from your feelings. You can talk and respond to people without really being there. You can be far away even when you’re in front of a crowd with everyone looking.
> 
> ...


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## proustian (Aug 16, 2012)

There's nothing 'thinky' in my floatiness, it is just my defence to the argument around my by evading it as a wash of feelings. I can't see an E5 using a wash of feelings as a defence.


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## MBTI Enthusiast (Jan 29, 2011)

proustian said:


> There's nothing 'thinky' in my floatiness, it is just my defence to the argument around my by evading it as a wash of feelings. I can't see an E5 using a wash of feelings as a defence.


Alright. I'd like to know if other 9s can relate to this, or if I'm just the weird one. :wink:


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## proustian (Aug 16, 2012)

MBTI Enthusiast said:


> Alright. I'd like to know if other 9s can relate to this, or if I'm just the weird one. :wink:


It is the mental equivalent to being wrapped in my duvet, nothing more.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

MBTI Enthusiast said:


> Thanks for that RH definition. I hadn't seen that before, or if I had, it's been a while. :wink: While that may be true, I think there is still something to my hypothesis. I don't really retreat into my "fantasies" unless things get really bad, or after I've withdrawn for some time physically. My first instinct is to walk away, pursue some mindless activity. When someone is arguing right in front of me, it's not enough to sit there and think about a waterfall (exaggerating, obviously). I can't just retreat into my mind, even if it's my "inner sanctum", when there is conflict in front of me.
> 
> The latter is another good distinction, which also relates to the normal triads. 4s withdraw to strengthen their image, 9s withdraw to strengthen their ego boundaries, and 5s withdraw to lessen their anxiety. Awesome!


I think 9s who are NFs might have a bigger propensity towards retreating in their imagination and pretending everything is fine and dandy. Walking away is a more obvious and direct way to resist, so first I'm thinking they would try to just tune everything out. I'm just assuming though, I'm obviously no 9 :tongue:


To answer your question about HOW I withdraw, I think my emotions are both my guide and my destination. By this, I mean that usually, it's the feeling that I'm out of place, or socially awkward, or an outsider, or lonely that'll lead me to withdraw into my own fantasy world. But at the same time, my withdrawal's goal is to either mull over negative feelings and exacerbate them through replaying scenarios in my head, by extracting the 'emotional juices' out of a situation so to speak, or to increase the longing and envy. I don't need to physically walk away, I could just be there and zone out. So for me, it's feel -> think -> act.


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## Tucken (Dec 13, 2009)

MBTI Enthusiast said:


> This is what I presumed 4s would resonate with. I assumed they withdrew to be alone with their emotions first and foremost. To brood and amplify them with their imagination.


I do both! Let me clarify. You can only be one thing at any given moment. At any given moment in time you are at some place within the enneagram. I spend most time as a 9, sometimes I am/act type 6, and sometimes 4 surfaces. 



> The latter is another good distinction, which also relates to the normal triads. 4s withdraw to strengthen their image, 9s withdraw to strengthen their ego boundaries, and 5s withdraw to lessen their anxiety. Awesome!


I believe it is a form of self-defense, perhaps ego-defense, really? 
When 9s are out of control they withdraw physically or they withdraw their presence through numbing themselves. 4s 'want'. When they don't get it they withdraw to fantasize about it - they create a 'romantic' self-image. 
Perhaps the going away to sulk about it is more 9ish, I don't know . Too much withdrawing tendencies in me to understand =(.


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## Arrow (Mar 2, 2012)

MBTI Enthusiast said:


> 2) I'm not sure if this applies, but it's another interesting thought. For me, as a 9, when I withdraw into action, I also tend to _ignore_ my feelings and thoughts. I'm not sure if 4s tend to ignore actions and thoughts, or if 5s tend to ignore actions and feelings during the initial stages.


I would say I concentrate on trying to feel something better then I am currently feeling first. So I guess you could say I feel what I feel, find out why I feel about what I am feeling and then I set out to change how I am feeling. I would say overall I just aim to feel better. 



> I think you'll have to expand on what might be confusing between 7 and 9.


Mostly that they are both positive escapist types. I think their coping mechanisms could be very similar in terms of distracting themselves and numbing themselves from what truly bothers them and removing themselves from painful situations that stress them. 



> 4s because it's difficult to withdraw into their emotions without a little help from the mind. Especially since 4s are known for amplifying their emotions through imagination.


Yeah I wouldn't say I withdraw into my emotions so much as I use my emotions to make me feel something different then what I am feeling. Yes the introspection is important to find out why I am feeling what I am feeling, but when I am not getting my needs met I find a way to use another emotion to make me feel better. I guess it's kind of like musical chairs a bit.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

@_Arrow_

4s are less likely to try to feel something "better" but instead to feel more intensely, even if it's negative like melancholy or longing. I don't think I ever retreat into my imagination to feel better, actually. It's more to torture myself thinking about the person I want to be but can't be.

The way you describe your withdrawal makes me think positive escapism rather than 4ish fantasizing.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

@Arrow



> I would say I concentrate *on trying to feel something better then I am currently feeling first.* So I guess you could say I feel what I feel, find out why I feel about what I am feeling and then I set out to change how I am feeling. I would say overall I just aim *to feel better*.


This isn't a 4 mechanism.


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## sodden (Jul 20, 2009)

kaleidoscope said:


> This isn't a 4 mechanism.



Yeah, I'd agree. This sounds positive triad. When I withdraw it's a shift into feeling something *more*. Sometimes this can be regenerative and it can lead to a new, inspired perspective or trigger creative action. Sometimes it leads to an unhealthy loop of self pity and self absorption. But I never withdraw to feel _better_. First off, that sounds like an action. I don't _choose_ to withdraw, it just happens. I don't realize it's happening until I've been in it for awhile.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

brainheart said:


> Yeah, I'd agree. This sounds positive triad. When I withdraw it's a shift into feeling something *more*. Sometimes this can be regenerative and it can lead to a new, inspired perspective or trigger creative action. Sometimes it leads to an unhealthy loop of self pity and self absorption. But I never withdraw to feel _better_. First off, that sounds like an action. I don't _choose_ to withdraw, it just happens. I don't realize it's happening until I've been in it for awhile.


Thanks brainheart, and I fully agree. That's what I was saying


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## Arrow (Mar 2, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> @_Arrow_ This isn't a 4 mechanism.


4's go to 1 (which has positive aspects of a healthy 7) when they go towards integration and become healthy. So I wouldn't say it's not within the 4 to become positive and grow to become competent. The pigeonholing of all Enneangram types just creates more problems for all people. But this is wildly and largely off topic, and has been for pages now.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Arrow said:


> 4's go to 1 (which has positive aspects of a healthy 7) when they go towards integration and become healthy. So I wouldn't say it's not within the 4 to become positive and grow to become competent. The pigeonholing of all Enneangram types just creates more problems for all people. But this is wildly and largely off topic, and has been for pages now.


I never said a 4 wasn't capable of being positive, but a 4 at even average levels of health wouldn't be able to relate to what you posted. This is a thread that discusses *in general* the way in which withdrawn types operate - _how _they go into their imagination and _why_. If you were talking about integration (or high levels of health), you should've mentioned it. Though I don't think you were, since you talked about this coping mechanism of yours as if this was something you did every single time, *not *as the result of increased healthiness.


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## Arrow (Mar 2, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> I never said a 4 wasn't capable of being positive


This is certainly what you have implied over the course of the last three pages while you were trying to type me, which should have really been done on another thread and in another forum. 



> This is a thread that discusses *in general* the way in which withdrawn types operate - _how _they go into their imagination and _why_. If you were talking about integration (or high levels of health), you should've mentioned it.


I definitely expressed likenesses of the withdrawn types and how they act. That's all that I have been posting about since this thread was created. It's you who has completely subverted the purpose of this thread by trying to make this into a type me thread. But the more important clarification in this bit is, who monitors how healthy they are in everyday life? I don't believe one should have to post everything with a warning sticker on if they are going threw integration or disintegration, it's personal experience. Take it as that persons personal experience and leave it at that. 



> Though I don't think you were, since you talked about this coping mechanism of yours as if this was something you did every single time, *not *as the result of increased healthiness.


I don't even care what you think at this point. I remembered a personal experience of mine and I expressed it and now you are implying that I am mistyped because I don't fit into the notion of the depressive 4 that you identify with so completely and absolutely. I just wish that you would come out and say it instead of hiding behind these "nice questions" and "general clarifications", though because it's so obvious and grossly apparent.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Arrow said:


> This is certainly what you have implied over the course of the last three pages while you were trying to type me, which should have really been done on another thread and in another forum.
> 
> I definitely expressed likenesses of the withdrawn types and how they act. It's you who have completely subverted the purpose of this thread by trying to make this into a type me thread. But the more important clarification in this bit is, who monitors how healthy they are in everyday life? I don't believe one should have to post everything with a warning sticker on if they are going threw integration or disintegration, it's personal experience. Take it as that persons personal experience and leave it at that.
> 
> I don't even care what you think at this point. I remembered a personal experience of mine and I expressed it and now you are implying that I am mistyped because I don't fit into the notion of the depressive 4 that you identify with so completely and absolutely. I just wish that you would come out and say it instead of hiding behind these "nice questions" and "general clarifications", though because it's so obvious.


The purpose of this thread is to *DISCUSS *the differences between withdrawn types. I was not attempting to type you, nor do I care about what type you consider yourself to be. I disagreed with you, for reasons I have clarified over and over, and with which other 4s agreed. Maybe you should take that into consideration before jumping to the conclusion that I was saying you were mistyped (*nowhere *did I say that). 

I never once steered away from the topic of this thread, I was discussing what was discussed in the beginning: how and why 4s withdraw. That's all there is to it.


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## Kito (Jan 6, 2012)

Let's stop this before infractions go out, yeah?  Neither of you wants to back down but I think you've both made your point.


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## Arrow (Mar 2, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> I disagreed with you


When there was nothing to disagree on. I never said anything about 4's being positive or negative, about reactivity or whatever it is you responded to. 



> Maybe you should take that into consideration before jumping to the conclusion that I was saying you were mistyped (*nowhere *did I say that).


You definitely implied this when you stated: "This is not 4 motivation." When never bringing up the fact that this motivation could come from an integrated 4. 



> I never once steered away from the topic of this thread


You did it several times, to the extent of even bringing up reactivity when I was talking about withdrawing.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)




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## Mizmar (Aug 12, 2009)

MBTI Enthusiast said:


> *My hypothesis: Perhaps when 4s withdraw, they withdraw into their emotions, into their HEART. When 5s withdraw, they withdraw into their mind, into their HEAD. And when 9s withdraw, they withdraw into their body, into their GUT. *


I'd say I definitely withdraw into the mind. I should note, however, that I experience a pretty seamless flow between the realm of thought and the realm of emotions. The thoughts or images that arise often have some emotional charge to them. If it's a past memory, for example, there can be a sense of longing for the past. If it's the image of sea monster arising from a darkened sea, then there is a feeling of terror mixed with fascination. As often as not, the feelings are more like a by-product of whatever thoughts arise. I don't think I withdraw for the purpose of feeling more, unless I'm in a pretty melancholic state in which case I put on some Radiohead or Scott Joplin and swim in my melancholic mood.

Also, I don't think I withdraw into the body at all. I don't feel very at home in the body.



MBTI Enthusiast said:


> I can't really relate to that. It sounds a lot like the detachment of the 5. :shocked:


 I don't think I relate to what Proustian wrote, but it's hard to say for sure because it seemed very subjective (which is not meant as a criticism, Proustian). I might describe something similar but I'm not sure we'd be talking about the same thing. What I often do when I feel intruded upon is physically merge with some object in the room. It could be a pillow on the couch or a picture on the wall (or whatever) but I'll attempt to remove myself from the source of intrusion by inhabiting some object which offers a feeling of physical encapsulation and safety. This is a completely reflexive response I've noticed myself doing. I might just merge into the wall behind me, as another example. I say "physically" because it almost does feel like a physical sensation of merging, though obviously I'm not _literally_ merging with whatever object becomes my focus; it's more like I mentally leap into it as a way to create space. 



brainheart said:


> Thanks for this thread. It's really great.


I agree. Very fascinating.



> For example, if someone or anything frustrates me, be it internal/external/intangible, I fantasize about cutting myself with a kitchen knife or my finger nails; throwing myself in front of a car or tearing the hairs out of my head one by one.


 I fantasize similarly. Pretty often. So that's what they mean when they say Fours amplify their emotional states? 



> I fantasize about lovers, both past and nonexistent and our both real and imagined and amped up interactions/conversations;


 I've done that pretty often. 



> leaving my current life; being someone else whose life was/is more tragic, intense, and fascinating; fusing into a musician, artist, writer I relate to and admire and living their tragic tortured artist life with them/as them.


Hmmm... I don't do that too often. The only exception that comes to mind is how, when I was in my teens, I fantasized about being Robert Plant (the lead singer in Led Zeppelin). I didn't do this for any tragic reason; I just loved their music so much that I derived a sense of power pretending that I was partly responsible for creating it. It made me feel like I was some brilliant mastermind, musical genius. I loved the sense of "owning" the music as if it were my own creation. 



> This isn't the only way I withdraw, however, but all of my withdrawing involves intense self-absorption. I do not tune myself out. I may tune out 'the real world' but I never tune out my feelings or insights or thoughts.


For me the "real" world just disappears until something snaps my attention back to it.



sleepyhead said:


> 90% of the time in the past, I would cancel and stay home and often the cancellation is fairly last minute, within a few hours of the event.


I used to do the same thing quite a lot. Looking back, it's one of those behaviors I feel very embarrassed about now. I feel like I was being very selfish with my time and energy. I probably ended up hurting, frustrating, or disappointing people who didn't deserve it. It makes me cringe to think about it.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Kito said:


> Would you say that your thoughts when withdrawing are kinda passive, and not really deep? I often feel like I withdraw to think, but not about anything in particular. I just let thoughts pass me by and don't dwell on any particular one. It feels like I'm casually strolling through my mind.
> 
> Are there any 5s here who could tell us how they think, what their thought process is when they withdraw? @_LeaT_, perhaps?


Oh uhm... This is kind of complicated considering that my tritype is 549 -.- I was first unsure of what the OP meant with "withdrawn", and to be quite honest... I am not entirely sure how I withdraw or what it means to withdraw because I can do it in so many ways. 

The first experience that comes to mind though is when I was at a party and I had to physically remove myself from people because being around people was very draining on me, to the point it upset me emotionally. Also do note that I am an INTP so being around people in general is draining because Fe is my weakest function. However, what's important to note here is when I physically withdraw, I do so because I cannot shut out the outside stimuli by simply being in my head or focusing on my emotions. I will however do this after I physically withdraw. 

Another recent example of this is when I was at a meeting earlier this week and there where two very chatty people whom I deemed as stupid and they were very annoying to me. The entire meeting was annoying in general because I found it highly unstructured and inefficient, and I felt it largely pointless as I had already figured out the stuff I needed to know and I found it annoying I had to be there just to simply get some extra tidbits of detail I couldn't get if I didn't attend. 

Since I couldn't just listen to my music on my phone since I was at a meeting, what resulted was that I started to write down angry notes in my notepad that were kind of poem-ish I guess, and doing so helped to relieve me from some of the stress. Not sure if this is something 4s could recognize themselves in...

Die, die, die
Talk, talk, talk
Don't want to hear it
I don't care
About your fucking talk
Don't fucking care
About your stupid talk
Bitch

Boring talk, boring talk
No fucking shit, this is so
boring talk
Bla bla bla, I get it now
Yeah, I get it
So please shut the fuck up

Let out the scream!
Shut the fuck up
Please
Please shut up
Can't hear, don't want to
hear
Not hearing you
La la bla bla

Horseshit
Eat it
Cockblock it
Fuck this shit

I can also note that my notepad was filled with doodles. 

But I can also just space out entirely as a way to withdraw too, so I am there but not really there. Like, I can watch a movie with someone but instead of paying attention to the movie itself I might think of other things, especially if the movie itself is boring. And I tend to spend a lot of time analyzing in general, like how I can analyze a conversation as it is going on. It's a bit of a being there but not being there kind of thing. At least for me, how and why I withdraw is largely contextual. There is a tendency for me to withdraw physically though, especially if there are a lot of people around me. Such social settings are very draining if they go on for too long, especially social conversation with many people around. Small group settings are fine, but more than 5 or so including myself is too much. Small children are an exception to this rule, as small children are extremely draining on me, especially when they are upset. I also think it depends a bit on the people in involved. High Fe users are the worst, especially dominants. Being around those people alone is extremely draining on me for some reason and I will need to physically withdraw if possible, so I can engage my own mind-space. If I can't physically withdraw, I will probably try to disconnect some other way. If I can't, I will experience a mental breakdown and have a panic attack.

Explaining to others that I can get panic attacks from being too long around people is well... met with a lot of skepticism. They don't understand how it is like to be a triple withdrawn tritype and being an INTP on top of that. I am starting to notice that this is also affecting my work if I sit in an office with a lot of people around me constantly chatting in particular. If they are silent and working without talking it's fine. But talk is in particular extremely draining even if I am not engaging in it myself, but just hearing it. It takes away a lot of my attention as I have this need that I must listen but it's hard for me to somehow fully disconnect unless I can filter it out with more sound e.g. music. It helps having something to analyze though, because I can disconnect more easily from the physical environment. 

So yeah, I think it's just a combination of all three of them for me one way or another.

Oh, I want to add that being sp/sx and a 5, I can be very greedy about my time, obviously. I can cancel invitations to social events last minute, as it largely depends on whether I feel like going or not and whether I got the energy to go which is not always the case either. It also depends on whether people are capable of sending invitations on what I perceive to be in time to me. I often feel that I must plan around social events to make the rest of my life fit. If I can't make it fit, I will most likely decline, unless I can cancel out my own plans because they don't affect my survvial. For example, I decided to go grocery shopping and ENFP friend sends a text message just as I am about to leave the door that they are going to have a party. Since I usually only do the grocery shopping when I am out entirely out of food it means that I will most likely decline because I favor my grocery shopping. I would however accept if I can find the possibility to fit in both the grocery shopping and the party though. 

Damn, I feel more selfish now when I realize how sp I am  I never saw myself as putting my own personal surival that high until I realized that every time I have declined a party invitation it's when I was about to do my grocery shopping lol.


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## sleepyhead (Nov 14, 2011)

LeaT said:


> Oh uhm... This is kind of complicated considering that my tritype is 549 -.- I was first unsure of what the OP meant with "withdrawn", and to be quite honest... I am not entirely sure how I withdraw or what it means to withdraw because I can do it in so many ways.
> 
> ...Since I couldn't just listen to my music on my phone since I was at a meeting, what resulted was that I started to write down angry notes in my notepad that were kind of poem-ish I guess, and doing so helped to relieve me from some of the stress. Not sure if this is something 4s could recognize themselves in...
> 
> ...


This was something I forgot to mention. I don't write the kind of stuff you do, because I don't really have those thoughts, but in school and Uni if I was bored, I would spend entire classes re-writing song lyrics to my favourite songs. I have all these random pages mixed in with my class notes full of lyrics. I used to try and journal when i was bored but I found it too hard to be self-reflective in that environment.



> But I can also just space out entirely as a way to withdraw too, so I am there but not really there. Like, I can watch a movie with someone but instead of paying attention to the movie itself I might think of other things, especially if the movie itself is boring. And I tend to spend a lot of time analyzing in general, like how I can analyze a conversation as it is going on. It's a bit of a being there but not being there kind of thing. At least for me, how and why I withdraw is largely contextual. There is a tendency for me to withdraw physically though, especially if there are a lot of people around me. Such social settings are very draining if they go on for too long, especially social conversation with many people around. Small group settings are fine, but more than 5 or so including myself is too much. Small children are an exception to this rule, as small children are extremely draining on me, especially when they are upset. I also think it depends a bit on the people in involved. High Fe users are the worst, especially dominants. Being around those people alone is extremely draining on me for some reason and I will need to physically withdraw if possible, so I can engage my own mind-space. If I can't physically withdraw, I will probably try to disconnect some other way. If I can't, I will experience a mental breakdown and have a panic attack.


I assume (please chime in with other experiences!) that 5's withdrawing is a bit different in that we can appear to be totally present, but still not really be present simply by the way we over-identify with our thoughts. For years I thought I was totally present and that thinking that much about your experience was how everyone operated. It's clear from talking to family, friends, and even my clients this is not a universal experience. And when i say "thinking of the experience" I mean over-identifying with the mental commentary _about _the experience - I think this differs from many 9's who may be able to mentally withdraw but who kind of zone out. My mom is a 9 and does the zoning out thing a lot and will not have heard anything I've just said. Whereas I can be totally in my head but not miss a thing, because I'm concentrating so hard on observing my environment.




> Explaining to others that I can get panic attacks from being too long around people is well... met with a lot of skepticism. They don't understand how it is like to be a triple withdrawn tritype and being an INTP on top of that. I am starting to notice that this is also affecting my work if I sit in an office with a lot of people around me constantly chatting in particular. If they are silent and working without talking it's fine. But talk is in particular extremely draining even if I am not engaging in it myself, but just hearing it. It takes away a lot of my attention as I have this need that I must listen but it's hard for me to somehow fully disconnect unless I can filter it out with more sound e.g. music. It helps having something to analyze though, because I can disconnect more easily from the physical environment.


I don't think I realized how much other people can drain me until fairly recently. Every time I leave my parents house I feel like I just ran a marathon. It's just so loud and everyone is trying to hear each others news, and my niece is running around trying to get all our attention, and we're all congregated in the same area. But even when I go there and it's just me and my folks, I feel totally exhausted and often after about 30 minutes I just want to leave. I think I notice it more now because I no longer have my own bedroom there to go chill out in when I need some time.



> Oh, I want to add that being sp/sx and a 5, I can be very greedy about my time, obviously. I can cancel invitations to social events last minute, as it largely depends on whether I feel like going or not and whether I got the energy to go which is not always the case either. It also depends on whether people are capable of sending invitations on what I perceive to be in time to me. I often feel that I must plan around social events to make the rest of my life fit. If I can't make it fit, I will most likely decline, unless I can cancel out my own plans because they don't affect my survvial. For example, I decided to go grocery shopping and ENFP friend sends a text message just as I am about to leave the door that they are going to have a party. Since I usually only do the grocery shopping when I am out entirely out of food it means that I will most likely decline because I favor my grocery shopping. I would however accept if I can find the possibility to fit in both the grocery shopping and the party though.
> 
> Damn, I feel more selfish now when I realize how sp I am  I never saw myself as putting my own personal surival that high until I realized that every time I have declined a party invitation it's when I was about to do my grocery shopping lol.


I find it a bit funny how apparent my SP is. I'm quite sure about being SX first because I really merge with everyone I'm close with ("our relationship", "we'll both be coming", etc) but I really struggle with not identifying with my "Withdraw now!" thoughts.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Bah, I want to elaborate more about my thinking process when I withdraw or feel the need to with draw because I think of so many things. I first of all tend analyze the problem why I need to withdraw. The most recent example is the meeting I was at earlier this week so I will refer to this one. As should be evident from my poetry, I was very annoyed with that people were talking. I was thinking about a lot of things. I was thinking about how much better it would be if they didn't talk. I was thinking about what the results would be if I told them to shut up or if I was the one leading the meeting. I saw that one was ideal. I would not allow the meeting to be so inefficient as I saw it. 

I tend to focus a lot on my own feelings and it tends to become circular so the more angry I or frustrated I feel, the more angry I become. It might be my wing 8 shining through here though. When I get angry I tend to focus a lot on my anger and feel the need to act on my anger too, even though I usually don't. 

I was also thinking about how useless it was that I was there and how many other things I could do if I wasn't there like shopping. In general I was thinking that life would be better if I wasn't at that meeting. So I can definitely recognize myself in Arrow's description of imagining how much life is better than what you see in front of you in that sense, but I think mine is more related to Avarice? I tend to think a lot about time in that way. What's the most time-efficient way of doing things so I can spend more time alone, essentially. It's not like I would think it would be so much more awesome if I was a rock star, but I did think that it would be so much more awesome if I was the one leading and organizing rather than the actual leader so yes, it overlaps. 

But Avarice is probably the underlying motivation but yes, 549 complicates things here for me. The 9 think can probably also be discerned though in that I ultimately want reality to fit my internal world and need for balance externally. Ideally, I want things to be smooth, simple and perfect. People would simply follow the regular meeting procedure, not act like retards and it would be over fast and quickly. No need to be angry or annoyed. I do have this strange relaitonship to anger this way, because 9w8 is so contradictory that way. On the one hand, I don't like being angry, but when I do get angry, I kind of like being angry. It's like having to find that balance between anger and non-anger, so not quite angry, not quite not angry. Of course, that's not possible, but that's how it goes. So when I do get angry, I tend to brood on my anger and then I become more angry since I am thinking about my anger. 

This usually goes for any emotion I might experience though, I think. I tend to self-indulge in them and thinking about how much things and life in general would be if I didn't experience this particukar emotion at this time, but on the other hand, I enjoy experiencing it, because I kind of enjoy feeling miserable from time to time. I think it's wrong to say it gives me perspective of things, but it does kind of help me to imagine how things would be so much better than what I have I guess. Iroincally as that may sound, I don't always want life to be good. I really want it to be suck, because knowing how sucky life cna be can help to appreciate how much better it is when it's good, but then I tend to think of how much better I would expeirence good life if I was bad so meh... Not sure if that kind of logic in particular might reveberate with 4s too? Logic tells me it should.

At times I really feel like a walking contradiction and I guess I am. 4 and 5 have this weird anti-thetical relationship and so does 9 and 8 and I have a strong 8 wing so... No wonder I'm often feeling so confused about life -.-


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Need to go sleep but meh -.-



sleepyhead said:


> This was something I forgot to mention. I don't write the kind of stuff you do, because I don't really have those thoughts, but in school and Uni if I was bored, I would spend entire classes re-writing song lyrics to my favourite songs. I have all these random pages mixed in with my class notes full of lyrics. I used to try and journal when i was bored but I found it too hard to be self-reflective in that environment.


Yeah, it's just probably a combination of my weird tritype and wings lol. I am not sure how many 459s there are on the forum, but since 5 and 4 are the rarest, that combination alone is rather rare, and triple withdrawn would logically be even rarer to me. I haven't seen others mentioning that they are triple withdrawns in the forum anyway, but me. Not that I pay that much attention to it.


> I assume (please chime in with other experiences!) that 5's withdrawing is a bit different in that we can appear to be totally present, but still not really be present simply by the way we over-identify with our thoughts. For years I thought I was totally present and that thinking that much about your experience was how everyone operated. It's clear from talking to family, friends, and even my clients this is not a universal experience. And when i say "thinking of the experience" I mean over-identifying with the mental commentary _about _the experience - I think this differs from many 9's who may be able to mentally withdraw but who kind of zone out. My mom is a 9 and does the zoning out thing a lot and will not have heard anything I've just said. Whereas I can be totally in my head but not miss a thing, because I'm concentrating so hard on observing my environment.


I definitely recognize that. I can remember conversations quite well that way. I uploaded that little video I made from the movie Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind where the main character Joel Barish is having dinner with his girlfriend at a Chinese restaurant who exhibits typical 5 behavior. He is also most likely a 5. Anyway, what occurs in that scene is that Joel is narrating to the viewer about how he hates how his girlfriend tends to drink a lot when they eat out and how she becomes stupid when she is drunk, and this weird scene occurs where Joel will start saying the lines before his girlfriend says them because he knows they are coming. However, because the scene itself is a memory in Joel's head, it's actually likely he in actuality never verbalized those things, but he simply imagined himself verbalizing them as they ate dinner, because his girlfriend is clearly oblivious to what is going on. He is not particularly discreet about it either. I think that is typical 5 think of what he's doing though. It's weird because first he narrates the scene from almost a third person-esque perspective, but then as we see the scene happening and he stops narrating then he acts out his narration so to speak, but none of it really seems to be real. Maybe I should find another site to upload the video on instead of Youtube. It's such a good scene of 5 behavior in social interaction.


> I don't think I realized how much other people can drain me until fairly recently. Every time I leave my parents house I feel like I just ran a marathon. It's just so loud and everyone is trying to hear each others news, and my niece is running around trying to get all our attention, and we're all congregated in the same area. But even when I go there and it's just me and my folks, I feel totally exhausted and often after about 30 minutes I just want to leave. I think I notice it more now because I no longer have my own bedroom there to go chill out in when I need some time.


Same, but this realization came after I moved out and I finally realized how much I needed and appreciate being alone. In retrospect I don't understand how I could live at home or I how could go to school even, since I find my work draining sitting in an open office environment.


> I find it a bit funny how apparent my SP is. I'm quite sure about being SX first because I really merge with everyone I'm close with ("our relationship", "we'll both be coming", etc) but I really struggle with not identifying with my "Withdraw now!" thoughts.


Yes, I don't identify much with my sp either. It just sounds so selfish that you always put your own survival and needs in front of others. But that's just how it goes. I just realized how much this was important to me as I typed out the above post.


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## sleepyhead (Nov 14, 2011)

In terms of withdrawing for all types, I remember reading in one of the Riso and Hudson books that Type 5's over-identify/value their present experience. They put too much stock in the present moment and how important it is and almost become blind to the future possibilities, and therefore have trouble comprehending they won't experience catastrophic depletion of resources in the future. It becomes all about survival/hoarding/avarice *right now*.

I'll try and find what book it's in - I wish I could remember exactly what they were talking about but I know they referenced other types as being past-identified and future identified.


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## sleepyhead (Nov 14, 2011)

Found it in _Wisdom of the Enneagram_. But I got the orientation wrong.



> ...the Instinctive Triad types (8, 9, 1) are all concerned with resisting aspects of the present. The feeling triad types (2, 3, 4) are all past-orienated because our self-image is built up out of memories and interpretations of the past. The Thinking Triad types (5, 6, 7) are more concerned about the future, as if to ask, "What's going to happen to me? How am I gong to survive? How can I prepare myself to keep things from happening? How do I move forward in life? How do I cope?"


That makes more sense - and completely fits with my earlier post:



> if I'm in a social situation, I'll often be thinking something like, "I so tired. I have a headache. I had to do this and this and this over the last few days and now I feel like I just need to take a break from everything. Should I leave now? I'll try and stick it out a bit longer. No, I just wanna go. But I should stay just another 15 minutes. No, I can't do it. I'm leaving."


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

sleepyhead said:


> In terms of withdrawing for all types, I remember reading in one of the Riso and Hudson books that Type 5's over-identify/value their present experience. They put too much stock in the present moment and how important it is and almost become blind to the future possibilities, and therefore have trouble comprehending they won't experience catastrophic depletion of resources in the future. It becomes all about survival/hoarding/avarice *right now*.
> 
> I'll try and find what book it's in - I wish I could remember exactly what they were talking about but I know they referenced other types as being past-identified and future identified.





sleepyhead said:


> Found it in _Wisdom of the Enneagram_. But I got the orientation wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> That makes more sense - and completely fits with my earlier post:


Yes, was going to say that I am more likely to think about the future than the past or the present.


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## sodden (Jul 20, 2009)

@Mizmar,

well it would be a little weird, wouldn't it, if all your withdrawing fantasies were the same as mine  ? I wasn't exactly saying that they were the template of a fours' fantasies, I was just trying to throw some of them out there. Of course you understand this, though. I'm just trying to get my 1,000th post so I can now retire to my cabin in the country and do my painting full-time...

I, too, relate much to the five method of withdrawing. The thing is that it is a four painted background with several dabs of five smeared on. In some places they blend together and you really can't tell the colors apart but overall, the four really stands out.

And there we have it.... adios!


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

sleepyhead said:


> Found it in _Wisdom of the Enneagram_. But I got the orientation wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> > ...the Instinctive Triad types (8, 9, 1) are all concerned with resisting aspects of the present. The feeling triad types (2, 3, 4) are all past-oriented because our self-image is built up out of memories and interpretations of the past. The Thinking Triad types (5, 6, 7) are more concerned about the future, as if to ask, "What's going to happen to me? How am I gong to survive? How can I prepare myself to keep things from happening? How do I move forward in life? How do I cope?"


That makes much more sense. I definitely don't live in the other orientations; if I am thinking about the present moment it's heavily abstracted.


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