# INFJ... or INTJ... or why not INFP or ENFP. Thank you for having read this.



## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

Annesyl said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Been reading all of you since a while, now just feel it's the right moment to make my coming out.
> Do not be surprised if I make any mistakes in English, this is my 4th language.
> ...


Yep you seem like an INFJ, if you want to make sure read the descripition of your opposite ESTP, if you don't fit at all the description you're an INFJ, otherwise you might be another type.


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## Annesyl (Dec 20, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> I don't think you fully grasp what sensation and intuition are in terms of actual cognition. I would recommend reading Jung's works like Personality Types.


I already did. I must be dumb as hell, since I did not fully get it in your eyes  
Would you be so kind to enlighten my lost soul and explain it in simple words?
My brain is a messy castle full of dust, it needs to be cleaned up by an expert like you.
Thank you.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Annesyl said:


> I already did. I must be dumb as hell, since I did not fully get it in your eyes
> Would you be so kind to enlighten my lost soul and explain it in simple words?
> My brain is a messy castle full of dust, it needs to be cleaned up by an expert like you.
> Thank you.


You read PT and yet you retain the MBTI definitions? 

Sensation - cognitive focus and the apprehension of data on what we can physically experience
Intuition - the cognitive focus and the apprehension of data of what something is beyond its physical experience


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## Annesyl (Dec 20, 2013)

Dezir said:


> Yep you seem like an INFJ, if you want to make sure read the descripition of your opposite ESTP, if you don't fit at all the description you're an INFJ, otherwise you might be another type.


Do not really fit... and would love to be like that. Sometimes try to act so and feel fake.
I actually already tried to do an opposite testing (replying what I think opposite of myself), got ESTP. With balanced T and F.
Thank you for the tip.


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## Annesyl (Dec 20, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> You read PT and yet you retain the MBTI definitions?
> 
> Sensation - cognitive focus and the apprehension of data on what we can physically experience
> Intuition - the cognitive focus and the apprehension of data of what something is beyond its physical experience


Thank you for this precise summary.
I definitely do not experience everything physically. 
My body is just a tool.

May I ask you why do you feel an urge to face people in this kinda aggressive way?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Annesyl said:


> Thank you for this precise summary.
> I definitely do not experience everything physically.
> My body is just a tool.
> 
> May I ask you why do you feel an urge to face people in this kinda aggressive way?


I'm honestly not trying to be aggressive at all. If you think I'm aggressive it likely points to you being Ne-valuing especially in a socionics sense.


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## Annesyl (Dec 20, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> I'm honestly not trying to be aggressive at all. If you think I'm aggressive it likely points to you being Ne-valuing especially in a socionics sense.


You seem to *want* to challenge people. 
If it makes me look like Ne, then it's OK 
Hey I like INTPs a lot!


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

ephemereality said:


> You read PT and yet you retain the MBTI definitions?
> 
> Sensation - cognitive focus and the apprehension of data on what we can physically experience
> Intuition - the cognitive focus and the apprehension of data of what something is beyond its physical experience


Well, sensation focuses on just that - things coming from your senses.
Intuition binds these different pieces of sensory information into a web.

In other words, Sensation is nodes and iNtuition is the lines that connect the nodes.


ephemereality said:


> I'm honestly not trying to be aggressive at all. If you think I'm aggressive it likely points to you being Ne-valuing especially in a socionics sense.


So she finds you aggressive, therefor she must have Ne?
That my friend, is how inferior Te logic can manifest itself from time to time.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

I have a gif for just this situation.


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## Annesyl (Dec 20, 2013)

Acerbusvenator said:


> I have a gif for just this situation.


Jesus, honestly, I have a crush on you


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> Well, sensation focuses on just that - things coming from your senses.
> Intuition binds these different pieces of sensory information into a web.
> 
> In other words, Sensation is nodes and iNtuition is the lines that connect the nodes.


Just no. Intelligence can do that just fine on its own. You are confusing intellect with intuition when it's not. Jung may in fact attribute this "binding" that you describe it to a Thinking process. Intuition is an irrational function so it cannot do any "binding" at all. All it can do is merely experience intuitive content as it is, just like the sensation type will experience sensation as it is.



> So she finds you aggressive, therefor she must have Ne?
> That my friend, is how inferior Te logic can manifest itself from time to time.


Inferior Te you say? Then have some not so inferior Te:

 as a vulnerable (4th) function (LII and EII)The individual tends to overreact to aggressive or confrontational behavior, taking it as a personal threat when it may only be a knee-jerk reaction or the result of a bad mood.
He tends to avoid intruding on others' space or engaging in behavior that may be perceived as coercive, and tries hard to handle his needs by being disciplined and well-prepared himself - rather than relying on others to do things for him. If these strategies fail, his efforts at dealing with the resulting conflict make him look actively pushy in a way that appears awkward and unnatural to others. This opens him up to painful criticism and feelings of weakness and helplessness.
He is able to moralize and instruct others about what they should do and why, but he is not prepared for others' active resistance or refusal to do as he says. In his mind, this would require him to put aside reason and good feelings and simply make the other person do what is necessary. This is extremely difficult, if not impossible, for him to do.

And here's the definition of Se:


*Extroverted sensing* () is an extroverted, irrational, and static information element. It is also called *Se*, *F*, *volitional sensing*, or *black sensing*.
 includes the ability to know how much power, force, or influence is latent or required.
Types that value  are much more comfortable with direct behavior aimed at making an immediate impact. This may at times be perceived as abrasive, particularly by types who do not value . There is usually a competitive edge to this style of group interaction, resulting in a more intense atmosphere than that of introverted sensing ()-valuing quadras. They appreciate contemplating possibilities only if they feel like they stand to gain something from it, or it has a perceived potential impact on "the real world".
Unlike , which is about one's subjective sensory experience (how intense or enjoyable it is),  is about achieving an object of desire. It gives one the ability to influence, bend, and push situations and people in order to achieve such an object, rather than to enjoy the situation one is in.

As you can see, socionics clearly predicts that people who find others forceful or needlessly aggressive are Ne types, because they dislike the application of force Se types apply. Because I'm an Se type being an INTJ albeit it being of inferior character, I still apply this force, and hence to an Ne type, I am coming across as abrasive or aggressive even when this was not my intention at all as this is my natural mode of operation. Other Se types don't see this as aggressive or abrasive at all, but sees it as a welcoming challenge in social interaction. 




Annesyl said:


> You seem to *want* to challenge people.
> If it makes me look like Ne, then it's OK
> Hey I like INTPs a lot!


It's not a conscious thing, but yes. I like people who can put up a bit of a challenge and struggle. It makes it more entertaining than people who just constantly agree with you all the time for no reason than agreeing alone. 

Please read the above and you'll understand why.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

ephemereality said:


> Just no. Intelligence can do that just fine on its own. You are confusing intellect with intuition when it's not. Jung may in fact attribute this "binding" that you describe it to a Thinking process. Intuition is an irrational function so it cannot do any "binding" at all. All it can do is merely experience intuitive content as it is, just like the sensation type will experience sensation as it is.


Intelligence allows you to grasp things.
Intelligence: The ability to learn or understand things or to deal with new or difficult situations
Intellect is basically the same thing.
Intellect: The ability to learn and reason; the capacity for knowledge and understanding.

Neither connects things, merely gives a higher capacity for understanding things.
There's no reasoning within the connection of sensory information and the formation of ideas.
Also, please do understand that everyone has all functions. A person without sensation for example be blind, deaf and simply unable to process any form of sensation. Without intuition you can't connect these sensory information.


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## Annesyl (Dec 20, 2013)

@ephe, I somewhat recognize myself in your way of analysing things... and honestly I do not really like it.
I like to challenge others as well. Coincidence?
I do not agree with you everywhere though. I do feel though that I am not that well based as you are. So I won't fight.
Nevertheless, when I really know what I am talking about, I can mentally destroy people around.

Thanks for making me learn further and further


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## Annesyl (Dec 20, 2013)

I just took a random socionics test, I am ENFP (Huxley)  Fantastic!


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

I saw you trying to describe your inferior Se before @ephemereality, irony is that what you were describing was clearly inferior Te and my encounters with you displayed a lot of it as well so my guess is that you are likely an INFP considering that you were so certain that you were an INTP earlier and now INTJ.

From my encounters with you it is in fact clear that you put yourself (intentionally) in awkward situations against people who know more than you do. I mean, there's a lot of active threads and I am only in this one so I must assume that it is your way of catching my attention.

Now, I don't know why you tried so hard to pretend to suddenly be a man, but I remember you very well LeaT and I also remember the video you had on youtube that you now have deleted.
That is however irrelevant as we are discussing the type of Annesyl and she's clearly an INFJ.
Earlier you called her a clear ESFJ and you say you like resistance which is ironic since the last time you tried to type me, you and a few people thought I was an ENTP and when I resisted you got upset and called me an ESFJ so I wonder if you are trying to insult Annesyl like you tried to insult me, believing I would have something against ESFJs.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

You sure think I have an agenda when I don't. I don't even remember why I checked the thread but it wasn't necessarily because you posted in it since you have posted in numerous threads wherein I have not offered a single type opinion. 



Acerbusvenator said:


> I saw you trying to describe your inferior Se before @ephemereality, irony is that what you were describing was clearly inferior Te and my encounters with you displayed a lot of it as well so my guess is that you are likely an INFP considering that you were so certain that you were an INTP earlier and now INTJ.


Please explain what inferior Te is, how it manifests in me and others. 



> From my encounters with you it is in fact clear that you put yourself (intentionally) in awkward situations against people who know more than you do. I mean, there's a lot of active threads and I am only in this one so I must assume that it is your way of catching my attention.


Awkward and people who know more than I do? Usually I say something exactly because I know what I'm saying. I offer a suggestion or an opinion because I think it's needed and that's it. @Amnesyl is better at reading me than you are. She's correct that I like to challenge people sometimes and that's pretty much all there is to it. 



> Now, I don't know why you tried so hard to pretend to suddenly be a man, but I remember you very well LeaT and I also remember the video you had on youtube that you now have deleted.


Because my gender identity has clearly got anything to do with this argument. This is who I am. This is the real me. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't take likely on that you think I'm pretending and I find the fact you suggest so highly offensive. You have zero right to question my choice of gender or how I choose to express myself. You can only respect it and you will. 



> That is however irrelevant as we are discussing the type of Annesyl and she's clearly an INFJ.


So then why bring it up in the first place if you are not attempting to offend me? 



> Earlier you called her a clear ESFJ and you say you like resistance which is ironic since the last time you tried to type me, you and a few people thought I was an ENTP and when I resisted you got upset and called me an ESFJ so I wonder if you are trying to insult Annesyl like you tried to insult me, believing I would have something against ESFJs.


You clearly don't understand the situation well. I type @Annesyl based on what type I think she is likely to be, just like I think you is clearly a Ti-Fe valuing type. I see little to no evidence in her suggesting she's an INFJ cognitively and I only type people cognitively. I care for accuracy and correct results. Which is to say that I can change my mind if new information arises.



Annesyl said:


> @ephe, I somewhat recognize myself in your way of analysing things... and honestly I do not really like it.
> I like to challenge others as well. Coincidence?
> I do not agree with you everywhere though. I do feel though that I am not that well based as you are. So I won't fight.
> Nevertheless, when I really know what I am talking about, I can mentally destroy people around.
> ...


You do not really like what? How do you challenge people though? It's important. 



Annesyl said:


> I just took a random socionics test, I am ENFP (Huxley)  Fantastic!


I don't think you're an IEE in socionics. Socionics type requires learning the system before it can be applied because one of the most important aspect is intertype, so if you got your type wrong most of what socionics actually offers in terms of theory becomes useless because it's not applicable.


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## Annesyl (Dec 20, 2013)

Acerbusvenator said:


> I saw you trying to describe your inferior Se before @ephemereality, irony is that what you were describing was clearly inferior Te and my encounters with you displayed a lot of it as well so my guess is that you are likely an INFP considering that you were so certain that you were an INTP earlier and now INTJ.
> 
> From my encounters with you it is in fact clear that you put yourself (intentionally) in awkward situations against people who know more than you do. I mean, there's a lot of active threads and I am only in this one so I must assume that it is your way of catching my attention.
> 
> ...


Wow I witness a subsequent fight between two of you here, that I am not aware of. I feel pretty uncomfortable about...
Do not want to be the subject of your fight.

@ephe
No really I cannot be a sensor, I do not listen to my body very well and capable to go to bed at 3AM if I got an interesting thing to read. Really rude, when I have to get up at 6.30 AM.
Also capable to exhaust it with a lot of sports to get things out of me. 
And when I go to sports, it's to work it everything out, I do not interact with people.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Annesyl said:


> @ephe
> No really I cannot be a sensor, I do not listen to my body very well and capable to go to bed at 3AM if I got an interesting thing to read. Also capable to exhaust it with a lot of sports to get things out of me.
> And when I go to sports, it's to work it everything out, I do not interact with people.
> Really rude, when I have to get up at 6.30 AM.


I am not sure all of this must be a result of sensation though. I know of ESFJs who can't go to sleep in time because they get stuck on doing something they found interesting or important. It's quite common for people who are not self-pres first in socionics to do this. Self-pres instinct isn't the same as sensation. 

The real question is what kind of data you focus on cognitively.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

ephemereality said:


> I care for accuracy and correct results. Which is to say that I can change my mind if new information arises.


I can definitely see that.
You based what you say on shallow understanding and refer to socionics to explain a type according to JCF, even tho socionics as itself is a very fragile system and focuses on the interaction between people.
Now, this is not to say that the definitions within socionics aren't JCF definitions because denying that is not true, but even tho the definitions are correct, the system itself is not.

Also, from our conversations it is clear that you don't change your mind and if you need to, you get offended. Like how you went from stubbornly calling me an ENTP to yelling ESFJ whenever you saw me.

Now, speaking of accuracy and being correct, this is a perfect example of flawed reasoning:


> I disagree. Just look at the title of this thread asking about 4 different very disparate types. Highly Ne suggestive. I would consider some form of xNTP or xSFJ.


What you there stated is that
Y is the amount of suggested types by the person.
if Y >= 4, the person uses Ne.

Also, lol:


> You sure think I have an agenda when I don't. I don't even remember why I checked the thread but it wasn't necessarily because you posted in it since you have posted in numerous threads wherein I have not offered a single type opinion.


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## Annesyl (Dec 20, 2013)

Hey guys, please do not fight!

If you want me to answer any other questions to type my cognitive functions, I am OK 
Test me in any way you would like to


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## WinterFox (Sep 19, 2013)

Annesyl said:


> Jesus, honestly, I have a crush on you


Lol you are definitely an INFJ. So much Fe in here. :tongue:
ENFP, INTJ, and INFP are all Fi users and being Fi users they rarely write such gushy things.


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## sinshred (Dec 1, 2013)

WinterFox said:


> Lol you are definitely an INFJ. So much Fe in here. :tongue:
> ENFP, INTJ, and INFP are all Fi users and being Fi users they rarely write such gushy things.


So if im an INTJ, im not allowed to write gushy thing? :angry:


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

sinshred said:


> So if im an INTJ, im not allowed to write gushy thing? :angry:


Nope.


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## 2LiederSoda (Dec 21, 2013)

That sounds like a lot of Fi, I'm convinced that you're not an INFJ.

INFJ's use Fe, so they can't help but be overly-expressive and look for external validation for their feelings. However, you described that you like to keep your feelings to yourself, so that would mean that your feelings do not rely on an outside source and serve as more of a constant for you. Also, when you said that there's a space that no one else is invited in, that is a classic Fi sign.

I would say you are either an INTJ or INFP, but right now I'd say you are most likely INFP because INTJ's aren't outgoing and/or cheerful, it's not in their fancy in the slightest. 

The argument for high expectations can go either way for INFP's and INTJ's though, because an INTJ's Ni makes them feel distant from everyone else so they grow to value themselves more than other people; I think of it as the idea of solipsism if you're farmiliar. whereas an INFP's idealistic sense of life and everything around them make them savor nothing less than perfect, especially what they want for themselves.

I have one question for you though: 1.what do you think about your ideas? More specifically, are you lenient in changing your perspective and aligning your thoughts in a new direction according to incoming information or do you value your thoughts higher than those of other people and are less likely to change?

I'm an INFP but I've dated an INTJ, and I think that's the biggest difference.


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## 2LiederSoda (Dec 21, 2013)

I'm an INFP, and you have no idea what you're saying. I love gushy stuff; I love romance; I love dreams of love. Poetry's ear candy. I think you should read up a bit more on us


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## WinterFox (Sep 19, 2013)

sinshred said:


> So if im an INTJ, im not allowed to write gushy thing? :angry:


Huh no I wasn't implying this, sorry if I accidentally offended you.
The gushy that I am talking about is Fe users are gushy to EVERYONE they met whereas Fi users are only gushy to their few loved ones. See the difference here? :tongue:


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## Annesyl (Dec 20, 2013)

2LiederSoda said:


> I'm an INFP, and you have no idea what you're saying. I love gushy stuff; I love romance; I love dreams of love. Poetry's ear candy. I think you should read up a bit more on us


Hey,
Thanks for your output.
I will respond to your previous message later, for technical reasons.

Though even if I am into gushy stuff, I have a hard time to be romantic. 
And poetry is definitely not my cup of tea, I'd better read Proust. 

In a relationship, I seek intelligence above everything. Soppy stuff, plastic flowers and fluffy compliments do not drive me nuts.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

I saw a bit of errors so I will help you out. None of this is meant to offend you:


2LiederSoda said:


> That sounds like a lot of Fi, I'm convinced that you're not an INFJ.
> 
> INFJ's use Fe, so they can't help but be overly-expressive and look for external validation for their feelings. However, you described that you like to keep your feelings to yourself, so that would mean that your feelings do not rely on an outside source and serve as more of a constant for you. Also, when you said that there's a space that no one else is invited in, that is a classic Fi sign.


There's 2 completely different categories when talking about the brain.
On one side there's the cognitive.
On the other there's the affective.
The cognitive only deals with rationality and the affective is the opposite.
MBTI is based on the cognitive and not the affective. This means that none of the functions deals with emotions.

What the F functions are about however is values.
You as an INFP are primarily guided by strong internal values of what is right and what is wrong/what is agreeable and what is disagreeable. For INFJs who have Fe, they based their value system on the people around them, they seek to create a consensus for values, just like Te users seek to create a consensus of what is logical.



> I would say you are either an INTJ or INFP, but right now I'd say you are most likely INFP because INTJ's aren't outgoing and/or cheerful, it's not in their fancy in the slightest.


INTJs can be just as outgoing and/or cheerful as INFPs. This has nothing to do with your type (even tho if you are outgoing or not would be due to you being introverted or extroverted).
Everyone also likes to be cheerful.



> The argument for high expectations can go either way for INFP's and INTJ's though, because an INTJ's Ni makes them feel distant from everyone else so they grow to value themselves more than other people; I think of it as the idea of solipsism if you're farmiliar. whereas an INFP's idealistic sense of life and everything around them make them savor nothing less than perfect, especially what they want for themselves.


I don't really know what you intend to mean here. Our Ni doesn't make us feel distant to other people. All it does is connect things.
Like the Ne in INFPs connects things by brainstorming and discussing ideas with other people, the Ni in INTJ does this internally and on its own as it is an introverted and subjective function.



> I have one question for you though: 1.what do you think about your ideas? More specifically, are you lenient in changing your perspective and aligning your thoughts in a new direction according to incoming information or do you value your thoughts higher than those of other people and are less likely to change?
> 
> I'm an INFP but I've dated an INTJ, and I think that's the biggest difference.


I'd say this seems more Ti vs Te.
Te users would be persuaded by a good argument whereas Ti users need for it to come from themselves even if it originally came from another person as they don't trust the reasoning of other people and I am sure @_arkigos_ would agree there.
This is why they are known for "reinventing the wheel" so to speak.


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## Annesyl (Dec 20, 2013)

2LiederSoda said:


> That sounds like a lot of Fi, I'm convinced that you're not an INFJ.
> 
> INFJ's use Fe, so they can't help but be overly-expressive and look for external validation for their feelings. However, you described that you like to keep your feelings to yourself, so that would mean that your feelings do not rely on an outside source and serve as more of a constant for you. Also, when you said that there's a space that no one else is invited in, that is a classic Fi sign.
> 
> ...


I know everything is not about age, but in my case it helped a lot.

When I was in high school, I was somewhat people usually call a bookworm. 
Not that nobody wanted to date me, I never complained about my physical atributes. But I had different priorities. 
I was really reserved, by choice. I got my A levels at 17 and had clearly weird interests compared to other girls of my generation.
I could not stand spending hours talking over the phone, hanging around with no purpose or doing shopping.
I was a lot more reserved than right now. When you get your head banged following expressing some of your views or feelings, you also learn to withdraw and do not let people in.

Being cheerful or outgoing has nothing to do with how you process the information.
I worked a lot on myself and just developped my positive and enthusiastic side.
I also worked on adapting myself. I do not like changes, I do not like to change my ideas on the spot, but sometimes we just do not have much choice.

I also noticed that I used to tend to go towards some decisions to please people around.
So now I am more assertive. Also a lot more confident. I never idealized myself or others. 
Of course I search perfection... never considered myself as perfect. This does not mean I do not value myself. I do and I know I weigh a lot.


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