# Signs you may be mistyped



## Recede

What are some signs you may be mistyped? If you've ever mistyped in the past, or if you've noticed a lot of people mistyping for the same reasons, share your experiences.


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## Recede

-4-

It's very common for people to mistype as 4's because they see themselves as emotional, creative, introspective, and individualistic. However, that doesn't necessarily make you a 4.

You may be mistyped as a 4 if:

-You don't try to find your identity and significance _in your emotions and suffering
_-Authenticity is not a primary concern of yours
-You can't achieve much growth by learning to identify less with your emotions


-5-

People often mistype as 5's because they are introverted and somewhat intellectual. They may even relate very strongly to the descriptions (I definitely do). But there's a lot more to 5 than that.

You may be mistyped as a 5 if:

-Not understanding the world and not knowing how things work is not something you fear
-You don't feel a strong need to collect knowledge and broaden your understanding of the world


-6-

People sometimes get mistyped as 6 because they are anxious, doubting, and can't seem to settle on a type. However, doubt and anxiety are things all types experience. Type 6 is more specific than that.

You may be mistyped as a 6 if:

-You aren't particularly attuned to potential dangers
-Finding someone or something in which to place your trust is not your primary concern


You know you're typed _correctly _when:

-You can use your own introspection and self-knowledge to gain a better understanding of the inner workings of the type
-You understand how you're affected by the Holy Idea of your type (as a perceived loss of it and an attempt to recreate it)
-You fit the growth and stress patterns of the type (integration/disintegration)
-The core issues of your type are areas in which you can achieve growth


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## meridannight

if you want to be a type (and coincidentally that's what you arrive at).


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## kaleidoscope

*You may be mistyped as a 4:*



If you don't relate to envy (and by envy, I don't mean jealousy). 
If you don't relate to having image issues, such as struggling between being true to yourself and finding a way to express the separateness you feel through trying on personas. 
If you don't relate to being a frustration type and placing unrealistic expectations on others, especially in the realm of relationships and emotions. 
If you don't relate to the concept of shame. 
If you don't care about how people see you. 
If you don't automatically separate yourself from everyone else at any kind of occasion, and if you don't find some way to realize how painfully different you are from everyone around you. This isn't just about feeling special (I'm sure everyone feels unique to some extent), but more about feeling deficient, flawed, broken compared to others. 
If you don't struggle with oscillation between superiority and inferiority when comparing yourself to others.


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## kaleidoscope

You _may _be mistyped in general if you find yourself including too many other factors into your typing (like the MBTI or any other system) to explain why you don't fit a certain type's essential characteristics.


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## Entropic

Silveresque said:


> You know you're typed _correctly _when:
> 
> *-You can use your own introspection and self-knowledge to gain a better understanding of the inner workings of the type*
> -You understand how you're affected by the Holy Idea of your type (as a perceived loss of it and an attempt to recreate it)
> -You fit the growth and stress patterns of the type (integration/disintegration)
> -The core issues of your type are areas in which you can achieve growth


A lot of good points raised there, but the one in bold in particular. This is definitely true. A lot of people can think that they fit the growth and stress patterns of a type because they don't understand the type and look at similar behavior but the causes don't fit, but when you are properly typed you understand the type at a depth others simply don't. 

I could go on and on about what 5 is all day and still feel that non-5s don't understand the fundamentals of the type. I actually think this happens a lot in the 5 forum where you often see someone who has recently gotten into enneagram and think they are a 5 because they are intellectual, introverted and so on. 

Type 5 is so much more than that. I've written some stuff about it that I'll post later and hopefully this should finally clarify some things about type 5.


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## Hespera

As far as mistypes go, I also thought I was a 6. Although I can be anxious and when I'm in the right mood I can get pretty worked up over things going wrong, I realized I'm not really after safety but the next interesting experience or idea. I'm also definitely an optimist. Although I try to plan things out, I mostly just hope they'll turn out for the best. I definitely fit easier into most surface descriptions of 6, but I'm more deeply a 7.



meridannight said:


> if you want to be a type (and coincidentally that's what you arrive at).


This can be very true. I was convinced I was a 4 while I was a teenager because I thought it was just so angsty and cool.

On the flip side, I sort of always had this attraction to type 7, but misunderstood it and thought myself too boring to fit. Currently I'm comfortable with 7; I think deep down I might have known I was one, yet I relied on stereotypes and severely over-analyzed. 

I guess what I'm saying is intuition can work both ways. It can be wishful thinking or it can be a legitimate pull towards something deeper.


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## aestrivex

Here is a sign that you may be mistyped:


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## Hyphero

This makes me wonder if 4w5 really is my core type.

I can relate to some of the possible 4 mistypes, but Type 4 seems like me.

I'm wondering if I mistyped myself.


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## Sina

- If you want to be a certain type, idealize said type and try to find a way to force fit yourself into it or force fit the type into your tritype. 

-If you have to use the words "healthy" or "unhealthy" to justify a typing.

-If you think choosing a certain type will make you feel better about yourself.

-If you have only read your own presumed type's description or not taken the time out to understand each of the types (particularly the darker side of each type) to the point where you can meaningfully differentiate yourself from other types (especially type look-alikes)

-If you have to bring in another typology system to make sense of your typing, since the Enneagram can stand alone well by itself, and you don't need to bleat about Fe/Fi or whatever to "prove" your type.


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## cyamitide

-- if you read the threads on your e-type subforum and couldn't really relate to them / feel that something is off

-- if you can't relate to the triads of your type (e.g. attachment styles)

-- if you feel that you have a different integration/disintegration pattern (this is re: 5s that intergrate to 7 thread, as it is known 5s _dis_integrate to 7, not integrate, however a few 1s mistype themselves as 5s and point 7 is the integration point for type 1 -- so if you're a 5 integrating to 7 it's a good sign to check if you aren't a mistyped 1)

-- if several of your friends tell you that you're another type, may be you should look into it


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## Animal

Boss said:


> -If you have only read your own presumed type's description or not taken the time out to understand each of the types (particularly the darker side of each type) to the point where you can meaningfully differentiate yourself from other types (especially type look-alikes)


This is crucial.

If there are types that don't make sense to you or you 'can't relate at all,' why not try to understand? If we're honest with ourselves, there are elements of each type in all of us, though obviously some will hit home a lot more than others. Once you understand the dark side of every type and see the human elements in all the types, it can become clearer that no type is inherently more glamorous or enticing than another, which can give you some objectivity in your own typing process. Understanding how instincts play out in each type can also help with differentiation. For instance, as Naranjo puts it, "SX 4s are more 8 than an 8" and "SX 1s are very 8-like" etc. Typing might be confusing for Social 7s who are 'counter-gluttons.' 

Also, if you type by behavior instead of motivation, it doesn't work. Two people can do the exact same things for completely different reasons. For instance a lot of 'tough guys' mistype at 8. The question is, why are you tough? Any type can be 'tough' or start fights. And there are also 8s who don't have a lifestyle of physical fights. So the behavior is not a great indicator of your type; it's the _why_, not the what. If there is a behavior pattern that is consistent in your life, asking yourself why can help with typing. I think this is one of the biggest mistakes people make in mistyping.. "I always do this and 2s do this so I must be a 2." 

Typing by relation doesn't always work either. It can work if you relate with the 'why,' but if you relate to the what, then it's not an indicator of type. For instance I relate tremendously to the leading character in Love and Other Drugs because we both have chronic illnesses and the movie shows her personal experience, but I doubt we have core motivations in common. Sharing experience can make two people act and think more 'alike' but that does not mean they're the same type. Typing by relation has some merit if you understand what underlies the other person's behavior and that is similar to what underlies yours.


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## Swordsman of Mana

you take on negative characteristics you don't actually have as badges.


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## Kisshoten

Signs that you're a mistyped 3 -

1) You are all but blind to the fact that you typed at the type you idealize and you see it fit in every possible way
2) You take on personas and defend the taking on of personas as a characteristic of the type you have (wanted) to type at.
3) You project type 3 onto most everyone you meet based purely on phrases such as 'want admiration/success/acclaim.'
4) You don't understand competency outside of garnering praise for a 'job' well done.

EDIT: I should clarify. What I mean is: the above points to _being_ type 3 while _being mistyped _at any type but 3.


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## Kisshoten

cyamitide said:


> -- if several of your friends tell you that you're another type, may be you should look into it


I wouldn't necessarily restrict to friends.


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## Animal

Vergil said:


> I wouldn't necessarily restrict to friends.


If your enemies tell you you're mistyped, you might want to reconsider..... :ninja:


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## Helios

I find that mistypes often have to push a persona by saying that they possess X trait common to type A and use every opportunity they can to defend their current self-typing; this is done by emphasizing the behaviors that they express. From this point, they will focus extensively on behaviors attributed to a type rather than looking at the motivations themselves. If someone else identifies with the same typing as them, and they don't find anything relatable with that other person, they write that person off as a mistype. 

If someone makes a claim about their type that they don't relate to--regardless of whether or not the claim has any merit or accuracy-- they will tell the other person that they don't understand what it means to be type A or go on a barrage of finding counterexamples. All of this is done without considering the motivations that drive the behaviors associated with each type of course. However, they will very well accept all claims that have little justification if they support their self typing in some convoluted way. 

When someone bothers to question their self typing and they are cornered and cannot provide anything of substance to back it up, they will often resort to deflection/projection by making implications about the questioner's type for expressing the slightest hint of disagreement. 

There is also, "I don't like this type, ergo I can't be type." And anything of that nature. 

Need I go on?


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## Swordsman of Mana

Swordsman of Mana said:


> you take on negative characteristics you don't actually have as badges.


^ftr, I'm guilty of this myself from time to time.


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## Quernus

I wish I had more insight on this, but there have been a lot of good remarks. And most of the ones that say: "you may be mistyped as a four if..." ...make me realize even more strongly that I'm definitely a four -_-

So the weird thing is that I very frequently get "Five" when I take the enneagram tests. I've tried so hard to make sure that I'm answering as objectively as possible, and not just putting down what I WANT to be the case. I may just have some major blind spots or something, but I dunno, I'm pretty self-aware. Other people with a basic understanding of the enneagram have also tended to type me as a Five, unless they know me very well. But I'm a Four, I tell you! And not because I want to be. In fact - I DO NOT WANT TO BE A FOUR, lol.


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## Midnight Runner

spectralsparrow said:


> I wish I had more insight on this, but there have been a lot of good remarks. And most of the ones that say: "you may be mistyped as a four if..." ...make me realize even more strongly that I'm definitely a four -_-
> 
> So the weird thing is that I very frequently get "Five" when I take the enneagram tests. I've tried so hard to make sure that I'm answering as objectively as possible, and not just putting down what I WANT to be the case. I may just have some major blind spots or something, but I dunno, I'm pretty self-aware. Other people with a basic understanding of the enneagram have also tended to type me as a Five, unless they know me very well. But I'm a Four, I tell you! And not because I want to be. In fact - I DO NOT WANT TO BE A FOUR, lol.


Tests are a very poor place to look for your final type from. Fours and Fives have a lot in common, being wings to each other, so it's not entirely hard to imagine that you mistype if you just aren't a typical Four behaviorally. Motivations and core thought processes are the important part, so if that's on target, then you're correctly typed. If you're finding those aren't right, then start looking elsewhere. Type tests are a great place to start, but a terrible place to end.


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## mimesis

Chipps said:


> You're a mistype when you go from one extreme to the other. How some people go from being a 713 to a 485 will never make sense to me. Those types are all too radically different for you to fuck it up that badly. Some types do overlap, others do not. Also, whenever you're the special "exception" for a type, then you're likely not that type.


Suspicion granted...I guess. 

Now...Which one of the two would be closer to the mistype, and why? Because basically you say, it can't possibly be either of them, because being so different they cancel each other out. Or would you say, then it HAS to be 629, because we hadn't seen those yet?

Of course I can see the difference, for instance one being more assertive, and the other withdrawn. 

That's a bit like someone first typing as introvert and then as extrovert. Big difference. Still, one of the two has to be true, since it's a dichotomy. You cannot argue 'then it is likely a mistype'. 

I could imagine the difference will be less when it's a 4w3 8w9 5w4 Sx and a 7w6 1w2 3w2 Sx



> With regard to the instinctual subtypes, one intriguing insight to type 4 was the introduction of a rare type of sexual 4 that can be "counter-envious" with 8-like tendencies, which Claudio described as often appearing "more 8 than an 8." This sexual 4 is in denial of envy, is self-confident, claims position, and knows his or her own worth ("I deserve it"). Moreover, this 4 can be cannibalistic, overstep boundaries, and diminish others to make the self bigger and to prove one right.


FWIW, I could imagine a person with narcissistic/ histrionic features/episodes, possibly bipolar or having depressive episodes, raised with perfectionist demands in particular towards the importance of physical representation, conventions, gender roles. (*)

I mean, it could lean both ways. I don't think your kind of logic is applicable, or helps in any way closer to find the correct tritype.

* disclaimer: not meaning to suggest anything to anyone with this (tri)type personally.


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## Sixty Nein

If you typed yourself as a reactive type, because you occasionally lose control and become an explosively negative towards everything. Or if you just have a short temper. (I'm both of these things sometimes.)

Reading up on the reactive types more closely, there is always an element of preparation whenever they tend to test boundaries, instead of just becoming manic.


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## Chipps

mimesis said:


> Suspicion granted...I guess.
> 
> Now...Which one of the two would be closer to the mistype, and why? Because basically you say, it can't possibly be either of them, because being so different they cancel each other out. Or would you say, then it HAS to be 629, because we hadn't seen those yet?
> 
> Of course I can see the difference, for instance one being more assertive, and the other withdrawn.
> 
> That's a bit like someone first typing as introvert and then as extrovert. Big difference. Still, one of the two has to be true, since it's a dichotomy. You cannot argue 'then it is likely a mistype'.
> 
> I could imagine the difference will be less when it's a 4w3 8w9 5w4 Sx and a 7w6 1w2 3w2 Sx
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW, I could imagine a person with narcissistic/ histrionic features/episodes, possibly bipolar or having depressive episodes, raised with perfectionist demands in particular towards the importance of physical representation, conventions, gender roles. (*)
> 
> I mean, it could lean both ways. I don't think your kind of logic is applicable, or helps in any way closer to find the correct tritype.
> 
> * disclaimer: not meaning to suggest anything to anyone with this (tri)type personally.



This response is so funny. :laughing:


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## Hyphero

If you type as a Four core simply because you want to be true to yourself.


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## katherine8

*mistyping*

I believe there is a misunderstanding regarding my work and my approach that I wish to clarify. For the record, I do not EVER tell people their type, but rather what to look for when confirming type. I feel the journey is far more important and compelling than my opinion. It is fun to learn looking at different criteria. David and I do this a lot and in a variety of ways....from the serious to the silly. This is well documented on the Enneagram Explorations Facebook Fan Page. We look at many different areas to examine. Based on a 12 point system much can be seen but is never 100% definitive. If someone asks about their expressions I point out the possible types. If someone sends in a paid questionnaire I give what types used the same collection of words. So, for example if your words match the words the type 9s used, I say your answers were most like the type 9 or the 926, social, etc. In sessions, we explore the possibilities by getting around the super ego to the core fear underneath which is more indicative of potential type and tritype than behavior. So I would suggest finding out what is at the core of your motivations...not what you are doing but why you are doing it. There are many ways we can mistype but all mistypings address something important... sometimes whatever we have mistyped as is a wing, in our tritype or can be due to a lack of experience with the Enneagram.... In particular, a misunderstanding of the core fears and motivations of the types.


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## Blystone

katherine8 said:


> I believe there is a misunderstanding regarding my work and my approach that I wish to clarify. For the record, I do not EVER tell people their type, but rather what to look for when confirming type. I feel the journey is far more important and compelling than my opinion. It is fun to learn looking at different criteria. David and I do this a lot and in a variety of ways....from the serious to the silly. This is well documented on the Enneagram Explorations Facebook Fan Page. We look at many different areas to examine. Based on a 12 point system much can be seen but is never 100% definitive. If someone asks about their expressions I point out the possible types. If someone sends in a paid questionnaire I give what types used the same collection of words. So, for example if your words match the words the type 9s used, I say your answers were most like the type 9 or the 926, social, etc. In sessions, we explore the possibilities by getting around the super ego to the core fear underneath which is more indicative of potential type and tritype than behavior. So I would suggest finding out what is at the core of your motivations...not what you are doing but why you are doing it. There are many ways we can mistype but all mistypings address something important... sometimes whatever we have mistyped as is a wing, in our tritype or can be due to a lack of experience with the Enneagram.... In particular, a misunderstanding of the core fears and motivations of the types.


Have you and/or your husband observed any empirical evidence to support the commonly held belief that the Gurdjieffian Enneagram describes the correct connections between the Enneagram types? In particular, does the hexad figure depict reality? Have you seen any evidence to support the notion that 5 and 7, and 4 and 2 should be connected, as opposed to say 5 being connected to 2 and 8, and 4 connected to 1 and 7?


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## DomNapoleon

1. When you idialize a type so much and suddently you are that same type. 

2. When you seem proud to belonging to a certain type. (the enneagram exposes the most horrible and grotesque parts of yourself. if you are correctly typed you won't display pride in belonging to that same type - just a personal theory of mine).

3. When you believe you are an 8 because you have no fear or anxiety :laughing:

4. When you are a 4 because you are artisitic and have a flair for drama in relationships. 

5. When you are a 5 because you are not into people and have zero communication/interpersonal skills. 

6. If you read R&H descriptions, only


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## katherine8

Are emotional and fear rejection but afraid to express it...


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## Pelopra

Merihim said:


> I'm not a 100% sure I'm a 6. I'm doubting between 6 and 9. I'm either one, just have no real idea which one. Maybe because nines turn 6'ish when stressed and sixes turn 9'ish when chilled out. LOL. So seriously how does that make sense?
> 
> And then there's tritype... which I'm curious about but its numerous combinations drive me batshit insane because half of them have something I can relate to, making me think it's super illegit. *universal voice* All attempts are futile, you will forever wander around not knowing. I MUST KNOW!!! -_-


 It's not about being sixish or nineish. It'd about relating to the core issue/complex. Which are very different in Sixes and nines. 

Nines struggle to care. They struggle with apathy. They struggle with a deep down suppressed belief that the world is ultimately pointless. 

They're not awash with the nameless fear of a six. The deep set sensation that the world on some level is a predator-- and you're the prey. I posted on the six thread a song with the lyrics "If i stumble, they're gonna eat me alive" -- at the bottom of the most healthy, integrated six that voice is still there, quietly humming away. I am near certain nines do not have it.


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## Pelopra

mimesis said:


> Wow it makes you wonder what are the signs you are typed correctly... :tongue:



Reading through a description of type motivation and manifestations of that in behaviour, you:
-keep wincing as things other people have criticized in you come up
-start laughing at a description of a coping strategy that you realize you were using your entire childhood 
-rather than feeling like disparate pieces of your psyche are being explained piecemeal (how I felt back when I grudgingly went along with a 7 typing because that's what 'all Ne Doms are') , there's a sense of unity, a "wow, this and this and this and this were all coming from this one core issue" 
-the more you read the description carefully with an attention to detail and the idea behind them, the more you feel that a core issue for you is being described 
-when you read in depth about your holy idea (not just the buzzword itself which I personally don't relate to) you think 1. Yes, this is missing in my life 2. Yes, I do long for this. 
-you read about a core coping strategy of the type and say "pfft I don't do that", catch yourself doing it five minutes later, and realize you've been doing it for years. 
-the self help strategies for your type 1. Feel hard as hell 2. Actually work.


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## Pelopra

Acerbusvenator said:


> In the Thinking Center, *Fives* have anxiety about the outer world and about their capacity to cope with it. Thus, they cope with their fear by withdrawing from the world. Fives become secretive, isolated loners who use their minds to penetrate into the nature of the world. Fives hope that eventually, as they understand reality on their own terms, they will be able to rejoin the world and participate in it, but they never feel they know enough to participate with total confidence. Instead, they involve themselves with increasingly complex inner worlds.
> 
> 
> *Sixes* are the most anxious type, and the most out of touch with their own sense of inner knowing and confidence. Unlike Fives, Sixes have trouble trusting their own minds, so they are constantly looking outside themselves for something to make them feel sure of themselves. They might turn to philosophies, beliefs, relationships, jobs, savings, authorities, or any combination of the above. But no matter how many security structures they create, Sixes still feel doubtful and anxious. They may even begin to doubt the very people and beliefs that they have turned to for reassurance. Sixes may also respond to their anxiety by impulsively confronting it— defying their fear in the effort to be free of it.
> 
> 
> *Sevens* have anxiety about their inner world. There are feelings of pain, loss, deprivation, and general anxiety that Sevens would like to stay clear of as much as possible. To cope with these feelings, Sevens keep their minds occupied with exciting possibilities and options— as long as they have something stimulating to anticipate, Sevens feel that they can distract themselves from their fears. Sevens, in most cases, do not stop merely at thinking about these options, however. As much as possible they attempt to actually do as many of their options as they can. Thus, Sevens can be found staying on the go, pursuing one experience after another, and keeping themselves entertained and engaged with their many ideas and activities.


Edit: Nvm. I posted a whole long thing describing why I didn't relate to some of what you wrote about six and then realized I had literally just described the behaviour written about and... Forget it. Nevermind.

(how I'd write it:
"But no matter how many "security" structures they create, Sixes* still* feel doubtful and anxious. They may even begin to doubt the very people and beliefs that they have turned to for reassurance."
too many descriptions write about sixes seeking security as if they ever actually find it...)


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## Bricolage

cyamitide said:


> -- if you feel that you have a different integration/disintegration pattern (this is re: 5s that intergrate to 7 thread, as it is known 5s _dis_integrate to 7, not integrate, however a few 1s mistype themselves as 5s and point 7 is the integration point for type 1 -- so if you're a 5 integrating to 7 it's a good sign to check if you aren't a mistyped 1)


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## Bricolage

Inguz said:


> * You type as 458 in some order


So there aren't any 458s lol?


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## Mammon

Pelopra said:


> It's not about being sixish or nineish. It'd about relating to the core issue/complex. Which are very different in Sixes and nines.
> 
> Nines struggle to care. They struggle with apathy. They struggle with a deep down suppressed belief that the world is ultimately pointless.
> 
> They're not awash with the nameless fear of a six. The deep set sensation that the world on some level is a predator-- and you're the prey. I posted on the six thread a song with the lyrics "If i stumble, they're gonna eat me alive" -- at the bottom of the most healthy, integrated six that voice is still there, quietly humming away. I am near certain nines do not have it.


That post was quite some time ago and now I'm really doubting between 2 or 9. I do struggle with the _occasional_ apathy. I'll sometimes get these fits where it will just hit me and leave me so damn apathetic and meaningless. Like, I'd think about something only to end in the same questions 'What does it matter anyway..? It's so meaningless and pointless. There's nothing to this all. Why am I even trying? It'd be nice if this and that but to what end? What thereafter? What along the way?' 

I don't know. It's like something follows me and breathes this cold chill in my neck. In excitement, in sadness, in enjoyment, in love,... It's there.

It has been like that since I was 16. Not constantly of course but it pops up.

What would you say is the 2's core issue?


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## Swordsman of Mana

Phoenix_Rebirth said:


> 1. When you idialize a type so much and suddently you are that same type.
> 2. When you seem proud to belonging to a certain type. (the enneagram exposes the most horrible and grotesque parts of yourself. if you are correctly typed you won't display pride in belonging to that same type - just a personal theory of mine).
> 3. When you believe you are an 8 because you have no fear or anxiety :laughing:
> 4. When you are a 4 because you are artisitic and have a flair for drama in relationships.
> 5. When you are a 5 because you are not into people and have zero communication/interpersonal skills.
> 6. If you read R&H descriptions, only


you took the words right out of my mouth

a few more

1) **your personality changes upon "finding your type" (especially if you suddenly look like a caricature of said type :dry: )
2) you type as a 4 because you are depressed
3) you type as an 8 because you want independence and don't like people telling you what to do (that means you are assertive and have healthy self esteem, 8 or not) 
4) you think you are a 2 because you like to help people 

**alternatively, this could mean that you've "dropped the mask" of your old type and are now acting naturally


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## Swordsman of Mana

katherine8 said:


> *I believe there is a misunderstanding regarding my work and my approach that I wish to clarify. For the record, I do not EVER tell people their type, but rather what to look for when confirming type. I feel the journey is far more important and compelling than my opinion.* It is fun to learn looking at different criteria. David and I do this a lot and in a variety of ways....from the serious to the silly. This is well documented on the Enneagram Explorations Facebook Fan Page. We look at many different areas to examine. Based on a 12 point system much can be seen but is never 100% definitive. If someone asks about their expressions I point out the possible types. If someone sends in a paid questionnaire I give what types used the same collection of words. So, for example if your words match the words the type 9s used, I say your answers were most like the type 9 or the 926, social, etc. In sessions, we explore the possibilities by getting around the super ego to the core fear underneath which is more indicative of potential type and tritype than behavior. There are many ways we can mistype but all mistypings address something important... sometimes whatever we have mistyped as is a wing, in our tritype


in your line of work, especially given your position, this is the best course of action. however, in general, I believe politely pointing out alternatives to someone whom one believes is mistyped can be helpful, both to the person himself and to the Enneagram community at large. this is particularly important if the mistyped person is going around parading their type and spreading misinformation or if it's getting in the way of constructive conversation about the Enneagram (this is among the factors that makes the Enneagram, which is already a highly complex, subjective topic, even _more_ confusing to talk about and often leads to debates being had over and over and going in circles without much headway being made). 



> So I would suggest finding out what is at the core of your motivations...not what you are doing but why you are doing it





> or can be due to a lack of experience with the Enneagram.... In particular, a misunderstanding of the core fears and motivations of the types.


I think a lot of the problem is not just understanding the motivations and fears, but _how_ one relates to the motivations and fears. I don't know enough about your own work to to critique, but with regards to the Enneagram community at large, I think more emphasis needs to be placed on the fact that the motivations of one's Enneagram type are _mostly unconscious_ and that it _will_ show up in your behavior (naturally, this is going to be different for everyone. saying that someone was not an 8 because they didn't live the lifestyle of a Dothraki horselord would be absurd :laughing: ). otherwise, most people will relate strongly to the motivations/fears of several types (which may or may not be a wing, tritype or integration/disintegration line). 



> Are emotional and fear rejection but afraid to express it...


On one hand, I agree that some degree of sensitivity and understanding is required (getting the most out of the Enneagram requires divulging some _really_ intimate details about one's inner workings and deepest held vulnerabilities). on the other hand; frankly, that person simply might not be ready to really dive into the Enneagram (having started studying it at 18, I don't think I was anywhere near mature enough. studying the Enneagram without having the maturity or self awareness to admit to your mistakes (of the ugliest nature) can quickly turn into a disaster of projection, misinformation and actually coming out of it with _less_ self awareness than when you started.



Chipps said:


> You're a mistype when you go from one extreme to the other. How some people go from being a 713 to a 485 will never make sense to me. *Those types are all too radically different for you to fuck it up that badly. Some types do overlap, others do not. Also, whenever you're the special "exception" for a type, then you're likely not that type.*


while I generally agree with this, sometimes people of a countertype can indeed seem like an "exception". for instance, Social 7s are much more superego oriented and easily look like a 1, 2 or more self righteous 9 (Chestnut describes New Age culture as a Social 7 culture). the Enneagram community is very familiar with the idea of the counter phobic 6, but each of the 9 types has one variant which is the countertype, and I feel like these need to be addressed more to help people properly type.


----------



## doineed1

One thing I think is a sign of being miss typed is... if you get a complicated and dark type... yet you are excited by it. 

I think a lot of people enjoy being certain types because of books and movies and don't actually know how uncomfortable it can really be.


----------



## Inguz

Bricolage said:


> So there aren't any 458s lol?


Of course there is. It just so happens that it's a tritype that combines the three "coolest" types from each center. The description "smart, intense and strong" fits so many more tritypes than just 458. In my observation, more often than not when someone types as 458 it is a mistype.


----------



## Bricolage

Inguz said:


> Of course there is. It just so happens that it's a tritype that combines the three "coolest" types from each center. The description "smart, intense and strong" fits so many more tritypes than just 458. In my observation, *more often than not when someone types as 458 it is a mistype.*


That's stupid. I wouldn't just blindly assume a false positive. That's like when people automatically gainsay a high IQ score because they think that it's_ too_ statistically improbable. That's just poor logic. This forum, whether with type or intelligence, isn't a random sampling…at all.


----------



## Inguz

Bricolage said:


> That's stupid. I wouldn't just blindly assume a false positive. That's like when people automatically gainsay a high IQ score because they think that it's_ too_ statistically improbable. That's just poor logic. This forum, whether with type or intelligence, isn't a random sampling…at all.


It's not even about logic, it's observation. Look through old 458 threads and see for yourself. That is even without me adding my own opinion into it.


----------



## doineed1

Bricolage said:


> In fairness I score moderately high on a bunch of types, except maybe for type 3 lol. I'm a pretty pronounced INXX so yeah.



Your evil.. your still going to make me guess. Intj 6


----------



## Bricolage

doineed1 said:


> Your evil.. your still going to make me guess. Intj 6


Haha evol! INTJ and a reactive type. I'll leave it at that. roud:


----------



## Coburn

Bricolage said:


> It seems to be that in Western culture a 3 is "cooler" than a 4 and a 7 is "cooler" than a 5. 4s and 5s are both withdrawn (uncool??) and have foundational self-esteem issues potentially. The cool guy tritype is probably something like triple assertive 378.


Eh, I'd have to disagree with you. I'd say that's a type people admire, but don't necessarily want to be themselves.

EDIT: to clarify, although I agree with you to some extent that the triple assertive type is considered "cool," I don't think it's actually a common mistype. One, because of the kind of crowd that finds that enneagram, and two, because most people admire asshole cool without wanting to actually be it.


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## d e c a d e n t

Marlowe said:


> Eh, I'd have to disagree with you. I'd say that's a type people admire, but don't necessarily want to be themselves.


Depends on what kind of person they are in the first place perhaps. I imagine people finding their way here are maybe less likely to see themselves that way, though.


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## Bricolage

Marlowe said:


> Eh, I'd have to disagree with you. *I'd say that's a type people admire*, but don't necessarily want to be themselves.


Hence cooler culturally than 458.


----------



## Bricolage

Marlowe said:


> Eh, I'd have to disagree with you. I'd say that's a type people admire, but don't necessarily want to be themselves.


I don't think you comprehended what I wrote lol.

I never said people wanted to be 378. Just that 378 is "cooler" than 458 by Western cultural standards.


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## doineed1

I have always been fond of the 283 and the 327.


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## Sixty Nein

I don't know why people don't want to be a 6, that's a sexy as fuck type right there. If you tritype as a 458, this might be the type for you if you still believe you are like that, but you think tritypes are bullshit. Just saiyan.

One thing that I disagree with the common consensus is that 8s can't be cowardly cretinous dildo masters, and thus anyone who displays a modicum of unsexified weakness can't be an 8 or get called an ate. Then again my own conception of what an 8 is might be fucked anyways, considering that I don't think of them as a very physical type to begin with.


----------



## Coburn

Bricolage said:


> I don't think you comprehended what I wrote lol.
> 
> I never said people wanted to be 378. Just that 378 is "cooler" than 458 by Western cultural standards.


I can comprehend what you wrote. I addressed it from the context of the thread, which addresses the issue of mistypes. 

Also, although I added to my earlier post (I have very poor internet connection where I live, so it take a long time for me to write/edit), I'll clarify again:

Yes, the 378 type of person might be (in general) more culturally "cool" (although I think a convincing argument can be made that a few other personality types are "cooler" than 378). That said, I don't think the general social "coolness" of the 378 stereotype personality = more mistypes on the enneagram forum. A large part of this is because of reason one: the enneagram draws a certain kind of crowd.


----------



## doineed1

Sixty Nein said:


> I don't know why people don't want to be a 6, that's a sexy as fuck type right there. If you tritype as a 458, this might be the type for you if you still believe you are like that, but you think tritypes are bullshit. Just saiyan.
> 
> One thing that I disagree with the common consensus is that 8s can't be cowardly cretinous dildo masters, and thus anyone who displays a modicum of unsexified weakness can't be an 8 or get called an ate. Then again my own conception of what an 8 is might be fucked anyways, considering that I don't think of them as a very physical type to begin with.


Why wouldn't you consider them a psyical type?


----------



## Sixty Nein

doineed1 said:


> Why wouldn't you consider them a psyical type?


Nothing about them seems to be innately physical. Authoritative? Yeah, but not physical.


----------



## Coburn

Bricolage said:


> I don't think you comprehended what I wrote lol.
> 
> I never said people wanted to be 378. Just that 378 is "cooler" than 458 by Western cultural standards.


Also, please understand what I wrote: I didn't say that the 378 is MORE cool than the 458. Saying something is cool doesn't mean it's the "coolest" or "cooler." I simply said it does have an element of cool to it that I do think people admire.


----------



## doineed1

Sixty Nein said:


> Nothing about them seems to be innately physical. Authoritative? Yeah, but not physical.


Hmm. I never thought about it on that level.. I always thought of them as physical. I guess because I was assuming others might be like me. Also I do feel fear.. and I am working on how to look cowardly. I make a horrible victim.


----------



## Blystone

Sixty Nein said:


> Nothing about them seems to be innately physical. Authoritative? Yeah, but not physical.


I agree. That isn't to say 8s are incompetent on a physical, sensory based level; just that it isn't the most important aspect of their existence.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Sixty Nein said:


> I don't know why people don't want to be a 6, that's a sexy as fuck type right there. If you tritype as a 458, this might be the type for you if you still believe you are like that, but you think tritypes are bullshit. Just saiyan.
> One thing that I disagree with the common consensus is that 8s can't be cowardly cretinous dildo masters, and thus anyone who displays a modicum of unsexified weakness can't be an 8 or get called an ate. *Then again my own conception of what an 8 is might be fucked anyways, considering that I don't think of them as a very physical type to begin with.*


From Beatrice Chestnut's book (with regards to the basic trait structure of 8)


> Naranjo calls 8s the most "sensory-motor" personalities. This means that 8s are firmly rooted in the physical, in the "here and now" sphere of the senses, and in the kinesthetic, body based way of functioning. Oriented primarily toward the present, they concentrate on what is concrete and what is stimulating _right now_.
> The prominence of sensory-motor experience also means that 8s engage in action more than thinking and feeling. Their primary movement is to take action. In line with this tendency toward action and self assertion, 8s often don't slow down long enough to ponder what they are doing before they do it. Naranjo describes this as a "lusty clutching at the present and an excited impatience toward memory, abstractions, anticipations, as well as a desensitization to the subtlety of aesthetic and spiritual experience". What is most real and compelling to Eights is what stimulates the physical senses in a tangible and immediate way.


----------



## Sixty Nein

As I said my conception of the 8 might be fucked. Which is basically this.



Sixty Nein said:


> 8: The enneagram 8 is to live under the impression in which there is a right/wrong course of action to live through. This may seem to be "1"-sh, but I believe the actual nature here is different as I have noted the word "action" in there intentionally. Anyways the 8, through their own willpower typically places themselves in the position of authoritative rightness. Thus the duality of criminal/judge is inside of the type 8, depending on their life circumstances. They view themselves as basically a sort of exalted demon of some sort, a deeply flawed person who does what they have to do, because if they do not shine the awfulness of truth and the disgusting qualities of life, then the world will fall into darkness. They have deluded themselves into thinking that their truth is the only one that is real, and the burden they place unto themselves is based off of a faulty line of thinking that their way is the objectively true way. Failing to realize that even the cretinous amongst us, can have wisdom and that the power that they themselves wield as "objective" is not so. Thus holy "Innocence" comes into being whenever they cast aside their own particular biases, and attune themselves to what is actually there. Not to split it off into right and wrong, but to what is just reality.


----------



## Sina

Marlowe said:


> I can comprehend what you wrote. I addressed it from the context of the thread, which addresses the issue of mistypes.
> 
> Also, although I added to my earlier post (I have very poor internet connection where I live, so it take a long time for me to write/edit), I'll clarify again:
> 
> Yes, the 378 type of person might be (in general) more culturally "cool" (although I think a convincing argument can be made that a few other personality types are "cooler" than 378). That said, I don't think the general social "coolness" of the 378 stereotype personality = more mistypes on the enneagram forum. A large part of this is because of reason one: the enneagram draws a certain kind of crowd.


Yes exactly. Broader cultural appeal is not the same as Perc 'cultural standards'. The kind of crowd that gravitates towards forums more tends to be attracted to the 'intense' dark brooding stereotype of the 548 tritype, in whatever order, over the more assertive entrepreneurial image of the triple ID (admirable though it is, especially in the West). The particular sub-culture of a forum may or may not align with wider cultural standards. 

6, for example, is a very useful type to be culturally and professionally (esp Cp which can yield a stubborn, risk-taking ambitious personality that can leave a 3 in the dust) and so is Type 1 with their mix of competency, authoritativeness and (potential) self-discipline. But, in the forum world, 6 is underrated as fuck and is a type people don't like to touch with a 10 foot pole; whereas, 1 has all manner of caricaturization attached that takes away from its real world advantages.


----------



## Inguz

Marlowe said:


> I'm just going to go on record here and say I have never found the four a cool, sexy, or otherwise desirable type. I've never understood the fascination with it. It's like people drooling over being Sx first. Makes no sense.
> 
> *random interjection finished*


Yes, but sadly this is not in the majority.


----------



## Pelopra

Marlowe said:


> I'm just going to go on record here and say I have never found the four a cool, sexy, or otherwise desirable type. I've never understood the fascination with it. It's like people drooling over being Sx first. Makes no sense.
> 
> *random interjection finished*


Me too. 
I know some lovely fours. the core four complex, however, is just.... gross, to me... (not fours! Their complex.) 
(Tbh, 485 are probably the three types I'd least want to be... In that order roughly... )


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Pelopra said:


> Me too.
> I know some lovely fours. the core four complex, however, is just.... gross, to me... (not fours! Their complex.)
> (Tbh, 485 are probably the three types I'd least want to be... In that order roughly... )


In what way do you find it gross? (Not saying I disagree or not, just curious)

Although that might be a bit off-topic. >_>


----------



## Chesire Tower

@katherine8, I relate about equally to the 5w4 and 4w5 descriptions; do you have any advice on how to decide between them?


----------



## mimesis

@Cosmic Orgasm

If you look at 2 as a contiuum (unhealthy-healthy), you should do the same with 3. And for that matter, look at narcissism as a trait and contiuum, narcissism - healthy self love, rather than as a pathological disorder. 

In that respect, it's not so much the inability to feel guilt or shame, as there are self-serving defenses that keep it, or any cognitive dissonance from ego-consciousness. This is not something only (pathological) narcissists do. It's one of the reasons some people are stuck in their personal development, because they shy away from being overwhelmed by guilt or shame that is sometimes part of that process. 

Also, Id is amoral, and you seem to suggest it is immoral (leaving marks on someone's back). Sure, this particular 3 at a certain health level may shrug and rationalize it saying "it's a dog eat dog world" or "if you can't stand the heat...". But it's still a justification (and not considered wrong according to his standards, that are internalized). Before Freud developed his Superego concept, he worked with Ego Ideal, which is still considered part of the Superego. It's hard for me to see narcissism separate from ego ideal, as if it were "pure uncut Id". There is need for such a faculty in order to have self-serving bias in the first place, or defense mechanisms like splitting to keep unwanted info away from awareness. 



Ego Ideal said:


> The ego ideal (German: Ideal-Ich) is the inner image of oneself as one wants to become. Alternatively, 'The Freudian notion of a perfect or ideal self housed in the superego', consisting of 'the individual's conscious and unconscious images of what he would like to be, patterned after certain people whom...he regards as ideal'
> 
> (...) We have called it the "ego ideal"...heir to the original narcissism in which the childish ego enjoyed self-sufficiency'. Freud reiterated how 'in many forms of love-choice...the object serves as a substitute for some unattained ego ideal of our own', and further suggested that in group formation 'the group ideal...governs the ego in the place of the ego ideal'.


And I would agree with Naranjo
"To speak of vanity as a living for a self-image is not different than speaking of Narcissism". It may perhaps be hard to imagine with a 4, but it's there. They may have grandiose fantasies of omnipotence, and may put their Savior they seek to merge with on a pedestal for a reason.

I don't see the point of argueing which one is more narcissistic, really. Although you have laid out some significant distinctions, thanks!


----------



## katherine8

@katherine8

I understand this may not be information you are willing to provide outside the workshops and I have your booklet, but would you like to explain what is meant by the life message of the tritype? Also, how does appearances change when a person have a type in their tritype as a part of their integration/disintegration line/both?When you have a type in your tritype that is also a wing or a line of connection the influence is amplified... Some may appear to be a type with this combination. 

-----------------
The life mission is an innate, often unconscious drive, desire and/or focus of attention. We are happiest when we meet this need and are miserable when we haven't. 

The life mission is a result of the shared view of the types in your tritype... i.e. 4, 6 and 9 seek answers to life's mysteries... But, all 3 doubt: the 4 has self-doubt, the 6 doubts themselves and others, and the 9 has the believer/doubter dichotomy. So the 4, 6 and 9 seek but then doubt the answers they find...what they don't realize is that their social role is to doubt and to continue seeking. On the low side the feel paralyzed by doubt and are afraid to voice their opinion... on the high side they help society to continue to grow and change.


----------



## katherine8

@katherine8

I understand this may not be information you are willing to provide outside the workshops and I have your booklet, but would you like to explain what is meant by the life message of the tritype? Also, how does appearances change when a person have a type in their tritype as a part of their integration/disintegration line/both?When you have a type in your tritype that is also a wing or a line of connection the influence is amplified... Some may appear to be a type with this combination. 

-----------------
The life mission is an innate, often unconscious drive, desire and/or focus of attention. We are happiest when we meet this need and are miserable when we haven't. 

The life mission is a result of the shared view of the types in your tritype... i.e. 4, 6 and 9 seek answers to life's mysteries... But, all 3 doubt: the 4 has self-doubt, the 6 doubts themselves and others, and the 9 has the believer/doubter dichotomy. So the 4, 6 and 9 seek but then doubt the answers they find...what they don't realize is that their social role is to doubt and to continue seeking. On the low side the feel paralyzed by doubt and are afraid to voice their opinion... on the high side they help society to continue to grow and change.


----------



## katherine8

@katherine8

I understand this may not be information you are willing to provide outside the workshops and I have your booklet, but would you like to explain what is meant by the life message of the tritype? Also, how does appearances change when a person have a type in their tritype as a part of their integration/disintegration line/both?When you have a type in your tritype that is also a wing or a line of connection the influence is amplified... Some may appear to be a type with this combination. 

-----------------
The life mission is an innate, often unconscious drive, desire and/or focus of attention. We are happiest when we meet this need and are miserable when we haven't. 

The life mission is a result of the shared view of the types in your tritype... i.e. 4, 6 and 9 seek answers to life's mysteries... But, all 3 doubt: the 4 has self-doubt, the 6 doubts themselves and others, and the 9 has the believer/doubter dichotomy. So the 4, 6 and 9 seek but then doubt the answers they find...what they don't realize is that their social role is to doubt and to continue seeking. On the low side the feel paralyzed by doubt and are afraid to voice their opinion... on the high side they help society to continue to grow and change.


----------



## katherine8

Snowflake Whisperer said:


> @katherine8, I relate about equally to the 5w4 and 4w5 descriptions; do you have any advice on how to decide between them?


--------

5 vs 4
Quick response...look at the core fears of the centers and the types in question. The answer is in the dominant center of intelligence...how you process.... A wing type is secondary, not equal to type. 

The core fear of the head center is a fear of chaos and a need for reassurance. The 5 gets reassurance by searching for information and knowledge to become informed. The core fear of the heart center is the fear of being ignored with a need for affirmation. The 4 gets affirmation by finding a way to be validated and seen by being unique.

The core fear of the 5 is annihilation, entanglements, invasion, etc... The 5 compartmentalize their emotions to manage them as emotions can make them feel they are out of control. The want a clear mind. They postpone emotions until a later time when they can explore them. The 5, like the 8 tends to give up on love. That is why the 5 struggles with feeling inhibited and is uncomfortable engaging with others.

The core fear of the 4 is of being flawed, inadequate, defective and emotionally cut off, etc... The 4 experiences their emotions in the moment trying to give meaning to their suffering... The 4s emotions bleed into one another. They *think* about their feelings and *feel* their thoughts. The 4 never gives up on wanting ideal love and circumstances. That is why they struggle with chronic frustration.


----------



## Sina

mimesis said:


> @_Cosmic Orgasm_
> 
> If you look at 2 as a contiuum (unhealthy-healthy), you should do the same with 3.


I sure do. 


> And for that matter, look at narcissism as a trait and contiuum, narcissism - healthy self love, rather than as a pathological disorder.



I don't disagree with that. 



> In that respect, it's not so much the inability to feel guilt or shame, as there are self-serving defenses that keep it, or any cognitive dissonance from ego-consciousness. This is not something only (pathological) narcissists do. It's one of the reasons some people are stuck in their personal development, because they shy away from being overwhelmed by guilt or shame that is sometimes part of that process.


There's no such thing as 'inability' to feel guilt or shame, for the neurotypical individual anyway. Everyone feels guilt and shame, and everyone avoids guilt and shame. 



> Also, Id is amoral, and you seem to suggest it is immoral (leaving marks on someone's back). Sure, this particular 3 at a certain health level may shrug and rationalize it saying "it's a dog eat dog world" or "if you can't stand the heat...". But it's still a justification (and not considered wrong according to his standards, that are internalized).


That's hardly immoral. I attached no such value judgment to the idea of leaving track marks or whatever. 


> Before Freud developed his Superego concept, he worked with Ego Ideal, which is still considered part of the Superego. It's hard for me to see narcissism separate from ego ideal, as if it were "pure uncut Id". There is need for such a faculty in order to have self-serving bias in the first place, or defense mechanisms like splitting to keep unwanted info away from awareness.


I am aware, and I agree. 



> And I would agree with Naranjo
> "To speak of vanity as a living for a self-image is not different than speaking of Narcissism". It may perhaps be hard to imagine with a 4, but it's there. They may have grandiose fantasies of omnipotence, and may put their Savior they seek to merge with on a pedestal for a reason.


Fours have grandiose fantasies of omnipotence? Elaborate. How does this relate to placing the Rescuer on a pedestal?



> I don't see the point of argueing which one is more narcissistic, really.


There was more to the 'argument' than that.  And, you know it.



> Although you have laid out some significant distinctions, thanks!


You're welcome.


----------



## chimeric

Good rule of thumb, I think, is that you should feel an acute sense of embarrassment when you read the correct type description, like you were called out on your shit.


----------



## Bricolage

chimeric said:


> Good rule of thumb, I think, is that you should feel an acute sense of embarrassment when you read the correct type description, like you were called out on your shit.


I didn't feel embarrassed. I just noted everything applied to me. My shortcomings were obvious before and after reading the type description, in other words.


----------



## chimeric

Bricolage said:


> I didn't feel embarrassed. I just noted everything applied to me. My shortcomings were obvious before and after reading the type description, in other words.


Ah, shoot. Maybe a good rule of thumb that you're a social 4 is if you feel an acute sense of embarrassment when reading 4 descriptions. Quite possibly projecting here, now that I think about it.


----------



## Bricolage

chimeric said:


> Ah, shoot. Maybe a good rule of thumb that you're a social 4 is if you feel an acute sense of embarrassment when reading 4 descriptions. Quite possibly projecting here, now that I think about it.


That's ok. I assume many beyond social fours - which Naranjo aptly calls social shame - feel embarrassment as they note their ego's tricks. I just happened to understand myself fairly well beforehand, so my reaction was more "he's got my number there."


----------



## mimesis

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Fours have grandiose fantasies of omnipotence? Elaborate. How does this relate to placing the Rescuer on a pedestal?.


Why is that so hard to imagine? Even borderline personalities may have grandiose fantasies. It is a way to cope with reality and fragile self-esteem. It's fantasizing about a perfect, ideal self, and being noticed, understood and rewarded with praise and admiration, for instance by an ideal significant other / savior. The problem is that it doesn't reduce anxiety or increase self-esteem, actually making it harder to accept reality, self or others, being less than stellar, or not matching the same intensity. 
Grandiose Fantasies and Low Self-Esteem: An Experimental Study - ResearchGate


For your last question, see description of Closet Narcissist. Omnipotence/grandiosity is projected on Rescuer whom self is fused with, by virtue of which it renders grandiose/omnipotent self.

I listed a few subtypes by Millon, and 2 others (which seem more like variations of compensatory narcissist) that I think correspond with the perspective of e4. (depending on wing/subtype), which are much different from the narcissism that I think usually is referred to. Elitist Narcissist seems to correspond with your description of 3. "Elitist narcissists are often social climbers and they think nothing of stepping on or over anyone in their quest for fame and status." (corresponds with Reich's Phallic Narcissistic PT)






Narcissism Subtypes said:


> *The Unprincipled Narcissist* What characterizes this group of narcissists is that they seem to be devoid of a conscience, or sense of right and wrong. They are often unconcerned with the welfare of others and are amoral, unscrupulous, and deceptive in their dealings with others. They exude an arrogant sense of self-worth and grandiosity. They are driven by a need to outwit others, which proves that they are smarter than those they prey on. It’s not unusual to find this type of narcissist in jails, prisons, and drug rehabilitation centers although many unprincipled narcissists go through life without running afoul of the law.
> 
> *The Amorous Narcissist * Amorous narcissists have an erotic or seductive orientation. They construct and measure their self-worth around sexual conquests. They often run through a string of pathological relationships, casting aside the person they have just seduced only to look for their next conquest. Amorous narcissists are often known for being heartbreakers, as well as committing some rather outrageous acts, such as conning their sexual partners out of huge sums of money, pathological lying, and other types of fraudulent behavior. The amorous narcissist is truly the Don Juan character who compensates for deeper feelings of inadequacy by seducing others and taking them for all they’re worth. Each sexual conquest reinforces the amorous narcissist sense of self-worth and over-inflated self-image.
> 
> *The Elitist Narcissist*
> In some ways similar to the compensatory narcissist, elitist narcissists are often obsessed with their own inflated self-image. They often create a false sense of self that bears little resemblance to their actual selves, yet they manage to convince themselves (and often those around them) of their unique talents and abilities. They feel empowered and entitled to special treatment because of whatever status or pseudo-achievements they may have attained. Elitist narcissists often turn relationships into competitions or contests, whether they are work relationships, friendships, or even love relationships. Here the goal is winning, no matter what the means or cost, in order to prove to others (and themselves) their incomparable superiority. Elitist narcissists are often social climbers and they think nothing of stepping on or over anyone in their quest for fame and status. They are very adept at marketing themselves and will not shrink from any opportunity to do so. Because elitist narcissists hold themselves in such high regard, they see little need to listen to others or follow directions.
> 
> 
> *The Compensatory Narcissist * This type of narcissist is driven by a need to compensate for past hurts or childhood emotional wounds by creating an illusion of superiority. Compensatory narcissists live in a fantasy world of their own creation in which they “pursue the leading role in a false and imaginary theater” (Millon and Davis 1996, 411) rather than living their own lives. They are driven to enhance their self-esteem through what are often imagined achievements. In order to achieve this goal for prestige, compensatory narcissists need an audience of others who will buy into their deception. In fact, compensatory narcissists are often hypervigilant or highly sensitive to how others react or perceive them, often watching or carefully listening for any signs of criticism or disdain.
> Here are 4 different types of Narcissists. | The Toxic Coworker





Covert Narcissist said:


> *Closet Narcissist * Depression, difficulty with self-assertion, clinging, anger difficulties, inadequate sense of self, denial of destructive behavior, hypersensitive to criticism, little empathy [relation to object: ] Devalues self; feels fused with the idealized object (omnipotent- grandiose), and then feels grandiose b/c Object=self. Emotional investment in omnipotent Object, vulnerable and dependent upon Object (as long as Object can be idealized). [fears: ]Self falling apart (when cannot continue to idealize the Object) [Ab Dep ] ]Self activation OR failure in the inability to idealize O and bask in the glow
> source





Covert Narcissist said:


> *Masochistic Avoidant* The narcissist is angered by the lack of narcissistic supply. He directs some of this fury inwards, punishing himself for his “failure”. This masochistic behavior has the added “benefit” of forcing the narcissist’s closest to assume the roles of dismayed spectators or of persecutors and thus, either way, to pay him the attention that he craves. Self-administered punishment often manifests as self-handicapping masochism – a narcissistic cop-out. By undermining his work, his relationships, and his efforts, the increasingly fragile narcissist avoids additional criticism and censure (negative supply). Self-inflicted failure is the narcissist’s doing and thus proves that he is the master of his own fate.
> 
> Masochistic narcissists keep finding themselves in self-defeating circumstances which render success impossible – and “an objective assessment of their performance improbable” (Millon, 2000). They act carelessly, withdraw in mid-effort, are constantly fatigued, bored, or disaffected and thus passive-aggressively sabotage their lives. Their suffering is defiant and by “deciding to abort” they reassert their omnipotence.
> 
> The narcissist’s pronounced and public misery and self-pity are compensatory and “reinforce (his) self-esteem against overwhelming convictions of worthlessness” (Millon, 2000). His tribulations and anguish render him, in his eyes, unique, saintly, virtuous, righteous, resilient, and significant. They are, in other words, self-generated narcissistic supply.
> Thus, paradoxically, the worst his anguish and unhappiness, the more relieved and elated such a narcissist feels!
> The Sociopathic Style | Without Narcissistic Supply


----------



## Flatlander

Retracted.


----------



## katherine8

Swordsman of Mana said:


> in your line of work, especially given your position, this is the best course of action. however, in general, I believe politely pointing out alternatives to someone whom one believes is mistyped can be helpful, both to the person himself and to the Enneagram community at large.
> ______________
> _Good points....My issue was being misrepresented... I do give feedback if asked but remain open._
> 
> 
> this is particularly important if the mistyped person is going around parading their type and spreading misinformation or if it's getting in the way of constructive conversation about the Enneagram (this is among the factors that makes the Enneagram, which is already a highly complex, subjective topic, even _more_ confusing to talk about and often leads to debates being had over and over and going in circles without much headway being made).
> 
> __________________
> _Yes this is a problem. And happens frequently with type 6. They are on panels and/or write about their type in forums. Those that relate to what they say (other 6s ) then think they are the type the 6 has mistyped as being. This is a problem because the 6 was not fully described in the early literature and the defense strategy of the 6 is to focus on behaviors over motivation. It is a natural blind spot of the 6 so it generally takes a lot of experience for the 6 to land on 6. It is the only type that will poll multiple others to see what type you think they are but never fully land on a type. The high side of this is that they represent the everyman. They are the most complex Enneagram type... innately a bundle of contradictions. _
> ______________
> 
> 
> I think a lot of the problem is not just understanding the motivations and fears, but _how_ one relates to the motivations and fears. I don't know enough about your own work to to critique, but with regards to the Enneagram community at large, I think more emphasis needs to be placed on the fact that the motivations of one's Enneagram type are _mostly unconscious_ and that it _will_ show up in your behavior (naturally, this is going to be different for everyone. saying that someone was not an 8 because they didn't live the lifestyle of a Dothraki horse lord would be absurd :laughing: ). otherwise, most people will relate strongly to the motivations/fears of several types (which may or may not be a wing, tritype or integration/disintegration line).
> 
> ____
> _Yes, which is why I found clusters of fears rather than a single fear._
> 
> _Integration/disintegration...stress/security was a misquote that went around the world and published by those that learned about the Enneagram 3 generations removed. Naranjo was the one that he played with this idea in 1971 in a study group one evening....and said that it didn't pan out.... never speaking further on the topic or publishing anything on it. In 1996, he stated that it was an error and he never meant to imply that we move one direction in health or security and another when unhealthy or stressed. But errors do happen and it was published in the original books and in books written by others that followed this model from the early authors. The Enneagram is a trialectic system... So....We do move on our lines, just as we do with our wings in both directions positively and negatively...but do not become these types._
> 
> _______
> 
> On one hand, I agree that some degree of sensitivity and understanding is required (getting the most out of the Enneagram requires divulging some _really_ intimate details about one's inner workings and deepest held vulnerabilities). on the other hand; frankly, that person simply might not be ready to really dive into the Enneagram (having started studying it at 18, I don't think I was anywhere near mature enough. studying the Enneagram without having the maturity or self awareness to admit to your mistakes (of the ugliest nature) can quickly turn into a disaster of projection, misinformation and actually coming out of it with _less_ self awareness than when you started.
> 
> 
> while I generally agree with this, sometimes people of a counter type can indeed seem like an "exception". for instance, Social 7s are much more superego oriented and easily look like a 1, 2 or more self righteous 9 (Chestnut describes New Age culture as a Social 7 culture). the Enneagram community is very familiar with the idea of the counter phobic 6, but each of the 9 types has one variant which is the counter type, and I feel like these need to be addressed more to help people properly type.
> 
> ______
> 
> _Yes, Naranjo taught counter types in 1996. So I taught them thereafter as it matched my 1995 research findings. Bea learned this sometime later and presented on it 2008._
> 
> _So perhaps the best way is to educate those mistyped by examining all areas that is is helpful to consider.......but having said that some people need to be a 4 to explain their sadness, 8 to justify their anger etc.... Anyone can be sad or angry.... If someone's ego needs to be a particular type there isn't much we can do.... I just try to help them see the way they can successfully work with the lead type and that if it doesn't work...they aren't that type.... )_
> [
> /QUOTE]


----------



## katherine8

Dear Fellow Enneagram Enthusiasts,

As many of you know, I love to study all things ‘Enneagram’ as well as a diverse number of personality typologies. I especially like to correlate these typologies to find patterns that will shed additional light on the nuances of type. My hope is to make it easier to identify, understand and work with the 9 Enneagram Types.

To that end, I am conducting a new study correlating Enneagram Type, Tritype, Instincts and MBTI. I am looking for new patterns, of course… but in addition, I wish to confirm earlier patterns I found in 2010 with clients and a study consisting of roughly 400 participants.

I am hoping this data and the clusters that emerge will help us to better understand differences within Enneagram Type and demonstrate how these three typologies influence one another. For example:

Are the 478s primarily the I/ENXP?
Are those with 4 in the Tritype usually the sexual/one on one type?
Are the MBTI Fs most often the sexual/one on one instinct?
Are the MBTI Ts most often the self-preserving types? 
Do social Instinctual types first mistype as Type 1? 
Do ESTJs mistype as 8s? 
Do INFPs mistype as 4s?

If you would like to participate in this study please make sure you are on my email list at http://www.enneagram.net. The survey will go out in the next week or two. Thanks.


Katherine8 
8w7 874 sx/sp/so enxp


----------



## katherine8

Entropic said:


> So would you say that this particular brand of sx 4 is more indicative of the sexual 468 tritype with 4 in the lead rather than an sx 4 as a whole?
> 
> * Yes, to a rest extent..... especially when the behavior is shoot from the 'heart' reactive.*
> 
> While on that subject, would you say this may be true when it comes to most instinctual subtypes and their descriptions e.g. Naranjo's sexual 6 which he thinks is the counter-passion (cp) 6, would also be an example of 68x tritype?
> 
> *The counter phobic 6 has turned out to be most often sexual and with 8 in the gut center.*
> 
> I think that a 6 with 1 in the tritype tends to come across as a bit more Prussian. Do you agree on this?
> 
> *Yes... generally speaking... the 461 is more self-critical with more conscious of areas they feel they fall short of their own and other's expectations. They experience a lot of conscious self-loathing, but they have more of the self-containment of 1 so tend to seethe and implode more than they explode....*


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@katherine8


> while I generally agree with this, sometimes people of a counter type can indeed seem like an "exception". for instance, Social 7s are much more superego oriented and easily look like a 1, 2 or more self righteous 9 (Chestnut describes New Age culture as a Social 7 culture). the Enneagram community is very familiar with the idea of the counter phobic 6,* but each of the 9 types has one variant which is the counter type, and I feel like these need to be addressed more to help people properly type*.


yes! this is why I think subtypes are way more important than modern Enneagram culture views them as. I take a very "proof is in the pudding" approach to typing. people love to say things like "but you don't know them!". the politically incorrect truth is....they often don't either, especially if they are new to the Enneagram, and analyzing one's (or someone else's) actual behavior patterns will often tell you a lot more than their self-proclaimed motivations. subtype theory is great for capturing these general patterns of demeanor and behavior nicely. of course, that's not to say motivation is unimportant. nothing could be further from the truth, but I think looking at things from the perspective of deduction can make things a lot less hazy and nebulous (this is probably the Tertiary Te speaking :wink: )


----------



## d e c a d e n t

katherine8 said:


> _This is a problem because the 6 was not fully described in the early literature and the defense strategy of the 6 is to focus on behaviors over motivation. It is a natural blind spot of the 6 so it generally takes a lot of experience for the 6 to land on 6._


Hm, I'm not so sure 6s are the only ones with that problem.



> _The high side of this is that they represent the everyman. They are the most complex Enneagram type... innately a bundle of contradictions. _


Why is that a high side


----------



## katherine8

I have found that people can mistype themselves and/or others if they choose type according to behaviors rather than motivation... So can mistype if they choose type:
1 because you are perfectionistic
2 because you help people
3 because you are successful
4 because your have a lot of pain, grief and/or suffering
5 because you are smart and introverted
No one wants to be a 6.... )) even though they are the best of friends... The 6 is the type most likely to mistype themselves
7 because you are funny or like to have fun
8 because you get angry and lose control
9 because you want peace

So one must take the good and bad of the type and find all aspects of their type within themselves...the core fears.... the passions, fixations, higher ideals and virtues....


----------



## tresemme

I'm sure there are also people that mistype themselves based on what they "believe" their motivation to be rather than what it actually is. This goes for both the typer and the person being typed. Just to clarify, I mean that the person may think and interpret everything through a particular type, but others interpret their pattern differently. I also feel like it becomes more of a typing and image-labeling-ego-game than what it's probably intended as (enlightenment and freedom?), but that's more my opinion.


----------



## Entropic

mimesis said:


> I wouldn't say people in general. For instance:
> 
> - People who find it suspicious when people are open and warm to someone they don't know.
> 
> - People who see it as disingenuine, naive or a sign of weakness
> 
> - People who are (Dismissive) Avoidant attached. They may fear being rejected or engulfed (lose independency). It is at least more likely than people who are anxious (preoccupied) attached, who are more in need of a high level of approval and tend to be more clingy in response to fear of abandonment.
> 
> - In terms of Horney styles: More likely People Moving Away from People (4,5,9), People Moving Against People (8,1,3), than People Moving With People (2,6,7).
> 
> - People who are secure attached may be warm and open, not so much as part of a security strategy (in need of approval or to cling to), but because they have enough faith to make themselves vulnerable (when they think necessary).
> 
> But to round up, most likely not following that security strategy would be avoidant insecure attached, type 4(w5),5 and 8. Which happens to be your tritype. :dry: So yeah...never mind.


You and I have a very different way of understanding "open" in this context. Fyi, I have a fairly secure and normal attachment style lol. I already discussed that with a shrink and I don't have as a whole, any serious attachment style issues so go snark more. This is the problem that happens when you try to correlate types and behaviors with other kinds of models and psychological dispositions.


----------



## cir

mimesis said:


> Why would not acting immediately, to assess the situation not be something that has evolved as a behavioral response to a perceived threat? It's not necessarily a conscious decision not to act. Our thinking process doesn't work that fast.





> In fact, as Jung puts it, there may be a "peculiar disturbance of the ideational process". In other words, under stress we may see things more black and white in order to quickly judge situations. You can see that when a debate heats up. And often we are not even aware of this disturbance.





> Time.





> That's my point. And not just for body types.





> Think of Ones not being aware of their anger or resentment.


Of course our _think_ing process doesn't work that fast. What exactly do you think is the fundamental problem that unites the *instinctive*/gut/body triad? This question is basically "why do you do the things that would make you a member of that triad?" It's similar to my hypothetical, rhetorical question of "Why must you make everything so *complicated*?"

Instinctive triad cares about the green line _before_ it splits. You know how the body triad is often described as grounded in simplicity? And that there's an obvious relation to how ones (black/white thinking) and eights (grayer) perceive the world. Obviously everyone use those defensive mechanisms (reaction-formation and denial) to _some degree_. It's just that body types use those specific defense mechanisms *a whole lot more* than any other people. Ones managed to convert their anger to another feeling, thereby building resentment. You ever thought it was weird that the body triad is also the _anger_ triad, but type one's vice is _anger_, and type eight's vice is lust? These groups of properties that you've brought up are completely related to the problems shared by our triad.



> To fight, flight, freeze, fawn, tend-and-befriend are all instinctual strategic responses to a perceived threat, which may be conditioned by trauma. Think of dogs that have been abused, not so much their instinctual response but their perception of danger that triggers it.


 My problem is with the word _instinctive_. It must be easily accessible to *everyone*. I do not consider "fawn" and "tend-and-befriend" to be in the same class of "instinctive" responses purely due to the *complexity* of those strategies. What's going to be the path of least resistance? Doing something that requires little to no thinking, or doing something that requires an active inventory of considerations?



> "We"? *A* ruthless barbaric and extremely violent un*healthy 8 may say he operates on instinct too, that he is 'in touch with the situation' and 'that the answer revealed itself'.* So how is that different from your 'instinct'?


 It isn't. Here, let me show you what a healthy 8 could look like. An unhealthy eight is still an eight. As a body triad member, we (eights) care about the kind of physical intelligence that comes from being directly in touch with our experiences. Our grounded in-touchness of a situation gives us access to the Holy Truth, and an unhealthy eight is working with a "corrupted" version of the Holy Truth.


> Holy Truth is the *simplest* of the Holy Ideas, but perhaps the most difficult to grasp without a *direct experience* of it. The Holy Truth is simply that All is One. ... The experience of this is *immediate and non-conceptual*. We *feel the Truth in our very cells.* When we know the Holy Truth, all sense of separateness, alienation, fear, and desire ends. We feel our unity with the One and realize that it has never been otherwise.





> If it were conscious, it wouldn't be an ego-defense mechanism.





> I'm not saying it is, but how can you tell if the defense mechanism keeps it away from awareness? What I refer to is not something we are consciously aware of, necessarily. Consequently we may not be aware of how it disturbs our ideation process or behavior.


 How exactly do we fix our problems if not consciously? What do you think _being present_ means? The ego-defense mechanism _started_ out subconsciously, but there are plenty of methods to bring that to your conscious attention afterwards (as long as you care and want to). Every single enneatype has a "being present" answer as a way to fix their problems. Psychiatric therapy. Drugs. Soliciting multiple feedback from *outside observers*, preferably people with little interest in disguising their answers to protect your feelings, and then adjusting your behavior accordingly. Sometimes my defensive mechanism fails and I get an "epiphany". And some may laugh, but introspecting! Introspecting was a skill I had to _learn_. And after spending time on that, one would consciously be able to control when to use specific defense mechanisms or not.



> I've never said anything about hypothesizing.


 You don't need to say something to _demonstrate_ it.



> Cue in denial?


 Cue in *insistence* that something must be the case? Why *must* our desire to do something be rooted in fear or shame, and not simply because we have no desire to? You can ask me whether I want to drink a soda, and if I decline, must it be due to fear or shame, and not simply due to a lack of desire? This _insistence_ that something is _heavily implied_ to _possibly_ be the case feels invasive, insulting, rude, and makes me think my answer is being disregarded (I learned this from contacting my nine wing!). But of course, if you want to think it's due to denial or any other arbitrary reasons, then that is your right. *shrug*


----------



## katherine8

There are common reasons for mistypings. Most Enneagram literature focuses on the 8 as angry, the 1 as perfectionistic and the 4 as sad. While this is in large part true, it would be more accurate to say 8s are comfortable with confrontation, 1s hold themselves to high standards and 4s identify with their negative emotions more than their positive emotions. 

Over the years, I have worked with anger management issues with all 9 types. When self-typing, most people with an anger problem will at first, type themselves as type 8. I have also worked with all 9 types that were perfectionists...yet most perfectionists will at first type themselves as type 1. I have also worked with all 9 types that were sad. Virtually all will type themselves as a 4. 

This is understandable and part of the journey of discovery. For someone to be a particular type, they need to compare and contrast all 9 types with one another... and of course, they need to be able to own their type's true growing edge....which will mean owning the difficult aspects of the passion and fixation of their type. 

For example, if a 4 says that they do not have envy, either they are not a four or they haven't found their envy. Most of us are reluctant to own the more negative qualities of a type ... as it takes time and confidence. We need a certain amount of ego strength to let in what we do not wish to see. But to ultimately be a type, we need to be able to see that we possess all aspects of the respective type... Fortunately, our the level of health can improve and can make those traits less problematic


----------



## mimesis

cir said:


> Of course our _think_ing process doesn't work that fast. What exactly do you think is the fundamental problem that unites the *instinctive*/gut/body triad? This question is basically "why do you do the things that would make you a member of that triad?" It's similar to my hypothetical, rhetorical question of "Why must you make everything so *complicated*?"


I don't think I make it more complicated. I didn't introduce the [email protected]/1s distinction. And you continue to do so, despite my reference to wiki (aside from loads of scientific evidence) that fighting (or flight) is not necessarily an immediate action but delayed. So why distinct this from surrender or fawn? 



cir said:


> Instinctive triad cares about the green line _before_ it splits. You know how the body triad is often described as grounded in simplicity? And that there's an obvious relation to how ones (black/white thinking) and eights (grayer) perceive the world.


Why makes you think eight is greyer? Believing 'no one is innocent' (often ascribed to 8) sounds rather 'black' to me. 



cir said:


> Obviously everyone use those defensive mechanisms (reaction-formation and denial) to _some degree_. It's just that body types use those specific defense mechanisms *a whole lot more* than any other people. Ones managed to convert their anger to another feeling, thereby building resentment. You ever thought it was weird that the body triad is also the _anger_ triad, but type one's vice is _anger_, and type eight's vice is lust? These groups of properties that you've brought up are completely related to the problems shared by our triad.


I agree that defense mechanisms may be more applicable compared to other types. But if they 'converted' their anger, there wouldn't be resentment. Besides 8s carry resentment to, but it's called 'vengeance', and in case of 4 it is envy. 8s can be envious, and 4s vindictiveness can manifest as hatred. Anger is a feeling state of aversion, which can turn to aggression or hate/disgust, or contained as a 'mood' disposition and seethed as a smouldering toxic. 



cir said:


> My problem is with the word _instinctive_. It must be easily accessible to *everyone*. I do not consider "fawn" and "tend-and-befriend" to be in the same class of "instinctive" responses purely due to the *complexity* of those strategies. What's going to be the path of least resistance? Doing something that requires little to no thinking, or doing something that requires an active inventory of considerations?


I guess I need to remind you that we are social animals not reptiles, so tend-and-befriend, and even fainting (which can sometimes happen just as fast or quicker than fighting) is just as much a strategic survival instinct. And people may just as much start fighting, because they feel their identity image is under scrutiny. 




cir said:


> It isn't. Here, let me show you what a healthy 8 could look like. An unhealthy eight is still an eight. As a body triad member, we (eights) care about the kind of physical intelligence that comes from being directly in touch with our experiences. Our grounded in-touchness of a situation gives us access to the Holy Truth, and an unhealthy eight is working with a "corrupted" version of the Holy Truth.


I agree that to experience Holy Truth requires to be grounded, that is, if people experience it without (sleep paralysis), they might panic. But Holy Truth is the notion that 'we' are NOT discrete entities, separated in the physical realm. You might say, to experience Holy Truth is like a state of 'sovereignty', or perhaps the 'oceanic' state Freud refers to, as the self experiences itself 'as one'. In that sense I would agree that an unhealthy 8 has a different notion of 'sovereignty' than a healthy 8. 



cir said:


> How exactly do we fix our problems if not consciously?


Unconsciously. They are called defense mechanisms. Like denial keeps it away from ego consciousness. 




cir said:


> What do you think _being present_ means?


To be present in here and now and accept the reality of being. 




cir said:


> The ego-defense mechanism _started_ out subconsciously, but there are plenty of methods to bring that to your conscious attention afterwards (as long as you care and want to). Every single enneatype has a "being present" answer as a way to fix their problems. Psychiatric therapy. Drugs. Soliciting multiple feedback from *outside observers*, preferably people with little interest in disguising their answers to protect your feelings, and then adjusting your behavior accordingly. Sometimes my defensive mechanism fails and I get an "epiphany". And some may laugh, but introspecting! Introspecting was a skill I had to _learn_. And after spending time on that, one would consciously be able to control when to use specific defense mechanisms or not.


I think you are referring to, and mixing up coping strategies, which are conscious strategies. Please check wiki, and I apologize for being lazy to do this for you. 



cir said:


> You don't need to say something to _demonstrate_ it.


I agree with that. 



cir said:


> Cue in *insistence* that something must be the case? Why *must* our desire to do something be rooted in fear or shame, and not simply because we have no desire to? You can ask me whether I want to drink a soda, and if I decline, must it be due to fear or shame, and not simply due to a lack of desire? This _insistence_ that something is _heavily implied_ to _possibly_ be the case feels invasive, insulting, rude, and makes me think my answer is being disregarded (I learned this from contacting my nine wing!). But of course, if you want to think it's due to denial or any other arbitrary reasons, then that is your right. *shrug*


Boy, you do take this very personally. It was just a thought to entertain. But never mind if you don't want to.


----------



## cir

TL;DR: Eights are *not* fear types; we don't operate as if we're in the head triad; Holy Truth is "there exists"; physical intelligence include things such as *frequency* (i.e. most, least, more, less, only, all) and "objective" things like what happens *first*?



mimesis said:


> I don't think I make it more complicated. I didn't introduce the *[email protected]/1s* distinction. And you continue to do so, despite my reference to wiki (aside from loads of scientific evidence) that fighting (or flight) is not necessarily an *immediate action* but *delayed*. So why distinct this from surrender or fawn?


 1.) I don't see a link to a wiki. I could have missed it, so could you just make a link to it?

2.) You are correct in that those are not necessarily immediate actions. I have already tried answering that question in the best way I could. The difference is *complexity* because something that is complex _inherently_ takes longer to execute (source: took computer science classes. Data and transfer of data in order to decide on something, regardless if it occurs in a computer or in your brain, *do not* bend the laws of physics). 

Gut types, since *we* *don't over-identify with our conscious thoughts*, tend to gloss over things that actually require time and effort. For eights, it requires time and effort to simply recognize that other people exist (which contributes to my insistence that fawn and befriending are a _different_ class of instinctual responses). We (gut types) prefer taking the path of *least* resistance (type nine's theme is _inertia_), and one of the ways of measuring resistance is by *how long it takes* to do/accomplish something.

3.) The timing is a way to "set" "objectivity". What did you do *first* has a very definite answer. It *does not matter* what your conscious thoughts or interpretations are. Something was done *first*, what was it? If you can't understand this premise, either due to misunderstanding or because you fundamentally reject it, then that's unfortunate. I'm not saying our approach is perfect/right/correct/optimal/whatever, just that these are the are the *central* concerns of the anger/gut/body/will/instinctive triad.



> Why makes you think eight is greyer? Believing 'no one is innocent' (often ascribed to 8) sounds rather 'black' to me.


 1.) For starters, our Holy Idea isn't Perfection, and we don't have a belief that "morality is perfection".


> Morality is a code that is *inflexible/static*. It is *NOT dynamic*. Gandhi has some famous quote about only believing in something only after you first understand completely and the idea becomes solid. Of course, he worded it VERY differently. But if you are not *100%* sure of something, it's not really a moral. It's more of a construction of a moral still. Morality = perfection. It is law that is just and fair.


 2.) I've read countless comparisons of eights and ones. While I can't link to all of them, here is one:


> This is understandable: both 8s and 1s have a lot of core anger, and both tend to see the world in black-and-white terms. Both may set rules for others to follow. However, 1s feel guilty when they break their own rules, while the 8's feel much *less bound by limits*, even their own. 8s are *much less prone to guilt* than 1s, and more likely to delegate responsibilities, as opposed to 1s who often become overwhelmed with responsibility.


3.) You are describing "point one" of eights. Many eights eventually integrate to the point (two) (meaning "type two" and "point two") where they *do* believe in innocence. So between point one (black) and point two (white), you make gray. Realize that almost everyone else who isn't a one or eight, and to some degree nines, can *easily* see other colors like red, blue, yellow, etc.



> I agree that defense mechanisms may be more applicable compared to other types. But if they 'converted' their anger, there wouldn't be resentment. Besides 8s carry resentment to, but it's called 'vengeance', and in case of 4 it is envy. 8s can be envious, and 4s vindictiveness can manifest as hatred. Anger is a feeling state of aversion, which *can turn to* aggression or hate/disgust, or contained as a 'mood' disposition and seethed as a smouldering toxic.


 1.) You make a lot of sentences that are structurally "<TYPE> *can* do this too", which is factually true, which is why one of the ways to *define* a type is by which defensive mechanism they use *the most*, i.e., which type has the *highest probability* of experiencing/using something in that particular manner? Also, in the morality thread, notice the emphasis on the word "most" in relation to the moral code.

2.) You JUST described the type one and type four connection. In a type one, anger is *not* seen as desirable, so they convert that anger into another emotion. *That anger eventually comes back anyway* (delay), which is how resentment builds. Type eights _discharge_ (loss) their anger, which is what vengeance and lust refer to. For eights, once the anger is gone, it's gone. Unless you keep triggering the eight, the anger doesn't come back like it does for ones.

3.) This difference is literally modeled here:
1 is a resistor. It represents *loss*. This is how type eights manage their anger.
2 is an inductor, and 3 is a capacitor. It represents *conversion/delay*. This is how type ones manage their anger.











> I guess I need to remind you that we are social animals not reptiles, so tend-and-befriend, and even fainting (which can sometimes happen just as fast or quicker than fighting) is just as much a strategic survival instinct.


 Congratulations! You have managed to _trivialize_ the magnitude (vice: lust) and difficulty eights have to overcoming their primary defensive mechanism. By default, eights are the *least* other-related enneatype; as in, the "simple" (to others) recognition that other people merely _exist_ is something we spend a long time grappling. God forbid you start talking about things like _emotions_; eights normally don't get that shit (defense mechanic: denial), which is why eights generally don't do the whole "fawning" and "tend and befriend" thing (which is why we grow to two, the helper). Also known as, "*no shit, we know that our defensive mechanisms are inappropriate at times, so we spend time unlearning them*".



> I agree that to experience Holy Truth requires to be grounded, that is, if people experience it without (sleep paralysis), they might panic.


 There is a reason why eights are *not in the fear triad*. If there is a realistic (not mathematical) possibility that they might panic, then they *will not* experience the Holy Truth. *Period.* You keep projecting your panic onto eights, as if this is a *central* (another word for *most*) concern they have to deal with. It isn't. By definition of what it means to NOT be in the fear triad.

Also, I've experienced sleep paralysis. I promise you, it is not even remotely related to the Holy Truth. At all.



> But Holy Truth *is* the notion that 'we' are NOT discrete entities, separated in the physical realm.


 At most, you have one correct sentence about what the Holy Truth could encompass. The Holy Truth in its purest form is "There exists".


> You might say, to experience Holy Truth is like a state of '*sovereignty*', or perhaps the 'oceanic' state Freud refers to, as the self experiences itself 'as one'. In that sense I would agree that an unhealthy 8 has a different notion of 'sovereignty' than a healthy 8.


 I would not. That sounds more like *my* notion of Holy Faith.


> Unconsciously. They are called defense mechanisms. Like denial keeps it away from ego consciousness.
> 
> To be present in here and now and accept the reality of being.
> 
> I think you are referring to, and mixing up coping strategies, which are conscious strategies. Please check wiki, and I apologize for being lazy to do this for you.


 So defensive mechanisms are unconscious. So we must fix them _unconsciously_? How? You couldn't control how they were used in the first place, so how can you control how to fix it?

No. That completely goes against what it means "to be present", spiritually and legally. "Present" means "*here and now*". The lesson is to catch yourself using your defensive mechanism again, and then learn not to do it. To "fix" your problems _unconsciously_ is just your defensive mechanism taking another flavor without you noticing. Denial keeps it away from _your own_ consciousness, but that does *not* mean that _no one else can see this_. The fact that *there exists* an interface between the conscious and the unconscious means that there *must* be a conscious way to fix it.

You can insist that we fix them unconsciously, but I'm not going to agree with you. Source: Have been in psychiatric therapy. I highly doubt either of us will move from this position, so let's just leave it at "we're going to have to agree to disagree".



> Boy, you do take this very personally. It was just a thought to entertain. But never mind if you don't want to.


 The thing is, there are people who *don't* find it entertaining. There are people who have spent significant portions of their lives in various psychiatric settings trying to fix their problems. For a mere outsider to go "perhaps you're in denial about it" *and* to refuse to accept the simple answer of "I don't want to" has the effect of trivializing those people's _humanity_. Not only would (general) you be _projecting_ your insecurity onto others, but there is an interpretation that (general) you are also _refusing to accept_ (denial) that there are people who are different and work under different values. This is an example of how an eight "sense" other people's weaknesses, because _they_ bring them up and project them onto an eight. Eights generally know themselves very well _in spite of_ their defensive mechanism (because this is generally true for unhealthy *and* healthy eights); they just don't know other people.


----------



## Animal

@katherine8 or anyone else who feels like answering -

What would you say is the difference between 4w5 and 4w3 and reasons why they might mistype as the opposite wing? How can you tell the difference?

(I understand what the difference is in theory, but I'm asking for a more personal view/ from experience etc.)


----------



## mimesis

cir said:


> TL;DR: Eights are *not* fear types; we don't operate as if we're in the head triad; Holy Truth is "there exists"; physical intelligence include things such as *frequency* (i.e. most, least, more, less, only, all) and "objective" things like what happens *first*?
> 
> 1.) I don't see a link to a wiki. I could have missed it, so could you just make a link to it?
> 
> 2.) You are correct in that those are not necessarily immediate actions. I have already tried answering that question in the best way I could. The difference is *complexity* because something that is complex _inherently_ takes longer to execute (source: took computer science classes. Data and transfer of data in order to decide on something, regardless if it occurs in a computer or in your brain, *do not* bend the laws of physics).
> 
> Gut types, since *we* *don't over-identify with our conscious thoughts*, tend to gloss over things that actually require time and effort. For eights, it requires time and effort to simply recognize that other people exist (which contributes to my insistence that fawn and befriending are a _different_ class of instinctual responses). We (gut types) prefer taking the path of *least* resistance (type nine's theme is _inertia_), and one of the ways of measuring resistance is by *how long it takes* to do/accomplish something.
> 
> 3.) The timing is a way to "set" "objectivity". What did you do *first* has a very definite answer. It *does not matter* what your conscious thoughts or interpretations are. Something was done *first*, what was it? If you can't understand this premise, either due to misunderstanding or because you fundamentally reject it, then that's unfortunate. I'm not saying our approach is perfect/right/correct/optimal/whatever, just that these are the are the *central* concerns of the anger/gut/body/will/instinctive triad.
> 
> 1.) For starters, our Holy Idea isn't Perfection, and we don't have a belief that "morality is perfection". 2.) I've read countless comparisons of eights and ones. While I can't link to all of them, here is one:
> 3.) You are describing "point one" of eights. Many eights eventually integrate to the point (two) (meaning "type two" and "point two") where they *do* believe in innocence. So between point one (black) and point two (white), you make gray. Realize that almost everyone else who isn't a one or eight, and to some degree nines, can *easily* see other colors like red, blue, yellow, etc.
> 
> 1.) You make a lot of sentences that are structurally "<TYPE> *can* do this too", which is factually true, which is why one of the ways to *define* a type is by which defensive mechanism they use *the most*, i.e., which type has the *highest probability* of experiencing/using something in that particular manner? Also, in the morality thread, notice the emphasis on the word "most" in relation to the moral code.
> 
> 2.) You JUST described the type one and type four connection. In a type one, anger is *not* seen as desirable, so they convert that anger into another emotion. *That anger eventually comes back anyway* (delay), which is how resentment builds. Type eights _discharge_ (loss) their anger, which is what vengeance and lust refer to. For eights, once the anger is gone, it's gone. Unless you keep triggering the eight, the anger doesn't come back like it does for ones.
> 
> 3.) This difference is literally modeled here:
> 1 is a resistor. It represents *loss*. This is how type eights manage their anger.
> 2 is an inductor, and 3 is a capacitor. It represents *conversion/delay*. This is how type ones manage their anger.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Congratulations! You have managed to _trivialize_ the magnitude (vice: lust) and difficulty eights have to overcoming their primary defensive mechanism. By default, eights are the *least* other-related enneatype; as in, the "simple" (to others) recognition that other people merely _exist_ is something we spend a long time grappling. God forbid you start talking about things like _emotions_; eights normally don't get that shit (defense mechanic: denial), which is why eights generally don't do the whole "fawning" and "tend and befriend" thing (which is why we grow to two, the helper). Also known as, "*no shit, we know that our defensive mechanisms are inappropriate at times, so we spend time unlearning them*".
> 
> There is a reason why eights are *not in the fear triad*. If there is a realistic (not mathematical) possibility that they might panic, then they *will not* experience the Holy Truth. *Period.* You keep projecting your panic onto eights, as if this is a *central* (another word for *most*) concern they have to deal with. It isn't. By definition of what it means to NOT be in the fear triad.
> 
> Also, I've experienced sleep paralysis. I promise you, it is not even remotely related to the Holy Truth. At all.
> 
> At most, you have one correct sentence about what the Holy Truth could encompass. The Holy Truth in its purest form is "There exists".
> I would not. That sounds more like *my* notion of Holy Faith.
> So defensive mechanisms are unconscious. So we must fix them _unconsciously_? How? You couldn't control how they were used in the first place, so how can you control how to fix it?
> 
> No. That completely goes against what it means "to be present", spiritually and legally. "Present" means "*here and now*". The lesson is to catch yourself using your defensive mechanism again, and then learn not to do it. To "fix" your problems _unconsciously_ is just your defensive mechanism taking another flavor without you noticing. Denial keeps it away from _your own_ consciousness, but that does *not* mean that _no one else can see this_. The fact that *there exists* an interface between the conscious and the unconscious means that there *must* be a conscious way to fix it.
> 
> You can insist that we fix them unconsciously, but I'm not going to agree with you. Source: Have been in psychiatric therapy. I highly doubt either of us will move from this position, so let's just leave it at "we're going to have to agree to disagree".
> 
> The thing is, there are people who *don't* find it entertaining. There are people who have spent significant portions of their lives in various psychiatric settings trying to fix their problems. For a mere outsider to go "perhaps you're in denial about it" *and* to refuse to accept the simple answer of "I don't want to" has the effect of trivializing those people's _humanity_. Not only would (general) you be _projecting_ your insecurity onto others, but there is an interpretation that (general) you are also _refusing to accept_ (denial) that there are people who are different and work under different values. This is an example of how an eight "sense" other people's weaknesses, because _they_ bring them up and project them onto an eight. Eights generally know themselves very well _in spite of_ their defensive mechanism (because this is generally true for unhealthy *and* healthy eights); they just don't know other people.


Ever heard of the expression 'to entertain a thought?'. 

You seem to identify a lot with your thoughts. And to type for that matter. For that reason I'll agree to disagree. Not disagreeing with everything you said, though but we're drifting away from the original discussion. 

I'd like to say this though. There is a meditation *technique* that induces a state comparable with Sleep Paralysis. Sleep paralysis (unvolontary) is sometimes reported to occur with out of body experiences. You can check wiki. Just saying there is a link with the spiritual realm there. I understand you didn't experience it as Holy Truth, because you were attached to your physical self. Which is completely understandable but in meditation you let go of that attachment, voluntarily. Feel free to call me insane for voluntarily inducing that!

This technique is by the way also a way to explore the unconscious, as a process of awareness and presence. Being grounded in here and now is a precondition I would say. It's not only useful to become aware of unconscious ego defenses, but the whole conditioning process that is your life. And ultimately to uncondition your conditioned impulses and compulsions.


----------



## cir

mimesis said:


> Ever heard of the expression 'to entertain a thought?'.
> 
> You seem to identify a lot with your thoughts.


 Believe it or not, that is an improvement. I had to learn how to introspect, which, I suspect for fives and sixes, come easy. If you read my dissertations (communication style: five, but with eightish flavor) carefully enough, you can even see where I can identify with my emotions (most obvious if I mentioned my nine wing, or last paragraphs)! Also an improvement! (Yeah! I'm fucking proud of myself!)

It's difficult to recognize emotions in myself, _much less_ other people's emotions. The flipside to my defensive mechanism is that I project _my security_ onto other people, and if people mirror it right back at me, I am unlikely to notice. My enneatype is like a disability; it creates literal _and_ metaphorical blindspots, and as a result, I miss a lot of what life has to offer.


> I'd like to say this though. There is a meditation *technique* that induces a state comparable with Sleep Paralysis. Sleep paralysis (unvolontary) is sometimes reported to occur with out of body experiences. You can check wiki. Just saying there is a link with the spiritual realm there. I understand you didn't experience it as Holy Truth, because you were attached to your physical self. Which is completely understandable but in meditation you let go of that attachment, voluntarily. Feel free to call me insane for voluntarily inducing that!


 Nah, I don't think you're insane. See, I don't disagree that this technique works, and I posit that other techniques work as well. But when you're _voluntarily_ doing it, that means you're doing it _consciously_. Give yourself some credit here! I hurt people _unknowingly_ and therefore, _unconsciously_ (to me; other people recognized getting hurt just fine lol).


> This technique is by the way also a way to explore the unconscious, as a process of awareness and presence. Being grounded in here and now is a precondition I would say. It's not only useful to become aware of unconscious ego defenses, but the whole conditioning process that is your life. And ultimately to uncondition your conditioned impulses and compulsions.


 Yup, no disagreements there. "Here and now" is what I do best, unhealthy *and* healthy! Part of why I get into these discussions is that I don't _like_ how body types are frequently misunderstood. Just like overcoming the defenses of _any_ other enneatypes, it's not easy. So here is a prettier wording of where the focus of my obsessions are:


> The Body Center shows us how Being lives in and animates our bodies. This is related to how our spiritual and biological life-force energy flows through us—how balanced, centered, strong, engaged, grounded, alive, vital, aligned, full of integrity, inhabiting the body we are. *It is about our capacity to be Present, here, in this body, in this moment.*
> 
> When this spiritual and biological life-force energy is obstructed, when we feel cut off from it, the personality tries to recreate that connection by concocting a sense of MY life, MY body, MY energy, MY autonomy, creating boundaries along with the arising of anger. When it is flowing freely, anger dissipates again naturally; however, when the flow is blocked or distorted, we see the typical ego reactions of the three Body Center types: overemphasizing anger (8); ignoring our anger (9); and sublimating or channeling anger (1).


----------



## mimesis

Entropic said:


> You and I have a very different way of understanding "open" in this context. Fyi, I have a fairly secure and normal attachment style lol. I already discussed that with a shrink and I don't have as a whole, any serious attachment style issues so go snark more. This is the problem that happens when you try to correlate types and behaviors with other kinds of models and psychological dispositions.



I could dig up a post when you expressed something entirely different. But yeah, it's getting old.


----------



## mimesis

cir said:


> Believe it or not, that is an improvement. I had to learn how to introspect, which, I suspect for fives and sixes, come easy. If you read my dissertations (communication style: five, but with eightish flavor) carefully enough, you can even see where I can identify with my emotions (most obvious if I mentioned my nine wing, or last paragraphs)! Also an improvement! (Yeah! I'm fucking proud of myself!)
> 
> It's difficult to recognize emotions in myself, _much less_ other people's emotions.


That was basically my point. Would you have identified it as shame? I'm not saying you or anyone are supposed to feel shame or guilt or fear or be excited. 



cir said:


> The flipside to my defensive mechanism is that I project _my security_ onto other people, and if people mirror it right back at me, I am unlikely to notice. My enneatype is like a disability; it creates literal _and_ metaphorical blindspots, and as a result, I miss a lot of what life has to offer.


I only disagreed, nothing personal.



cir said:


> Nah, I don't think you're insane. See, I don't disagree that this technique works, and I posit that other techniques work as well. But when you're _voluntarily_ doing it, that means you're doing it _consciously_. Give yourself some credit here! I hurt people _unknowingly_ and therefore, _unconsciously_ (to me; other people recognized getting hurt just fine lol).


Yes, it is mind body control, and it is actually a blissfull experience and a surge of energy. But I understand it could be stressfull and unsettling if it happens to you rather than controlling it, as with kundalini awakening, which some (according to western standards) consider a psychosis.



cir said:


> Yup, no disagreements there. "Here and now" is what I do best, unhealthy *and* healthy! Part of why I get into these discussions is that I don't _like_ how body types are frequently misunderstood. Just like overcoming the defenses of _any_ other enneatypes, it's not easy. So here is a prettier wording of where the focus of my obsessions are:


Thank you.

I have my own personal journey, but ultimately we need to understand or connect to all holy ideas, not just the one of your type.


----------



## Zamyatin

@mimesis Without rehashing everything @cir has said, I also found it difficult to identify with much of what you wrote, which has an unmistakable 6w5/5w6 flavor. Some highlights;



> Believing 'no one is innocent' (often ascribed to 8) sounds rather 'black' to me.


Certainty is not the same thing as "black and white" thinking. I suspect what really seems so odd to you here is the fact that this view is definite and certain. Because both are bounded and defined terms, and you're focusing on that certainty, "black" by itself is synonymous with "black and white" in your mind. Similarly, when you hear "grey", you seem to be associating that with a head-type's fear of committing to a specific claim, when accurately understood "grey" simply means a worldview absent color. 

In other words, grey doesn't represent ambiguity, it represents lack.

There's a world of difference between the grey of an Eight and the black-and-white of a One. Where someone like cir might have a hard time believing in innocence, in "white" so to speak, I have a similar inability to see anything but extremes. I'm not dogmatic in the dysfunctional fundamentalist way of thought (in fact, my views have radically changed throughout the years), but that's not because I've managed to overcome binary thinking. Instead, my black-and-white tendencies are tempered by two things; one, the recognition that I'm not really able to accurately know everything (so I can't be sure that something is actually black or white), and two, a learned ability to recognize that not everybody is capable of being perfect all the time (learning to be merciful). And even then, when I'm under an extreme amount of stress, these lessons tend to slip a bit, while the belief in the distinction between those two colors is nearly immutable.

At risk of overusing the color metaphor, when I think "grey", I think something along the lines of a black-and-white computer printoff; while you _perceive_ grey, in reality, it's a mix of black dots on white paper, even if you have to look very closely before the dots stand out. When I reject "black and white" thinking in others, I'm not arguing that grey exists, but that they're making a mistake by seeing a bunch of tiny black dots on a white sheet of paper and saying "that's entirely black" or "that's entirely white". Where I see two colors, and nothing in-between, an Eight sees one color (which effectively means none). That in a nutshell is the difference between a One's moralism and an Eight's pragmatism. Boundaries are meaningless to Eights because they lack the ability to see distinct colors, while boundaries are all-important to Ones because the difference between the colors we see make them so definite to us.



> I guess I need to remind you that we are social animals not reptiles, so tend-and-befriend, and even fainting (which can sometimes happen just as fast or quicker than fighting) is just as much a strategic survival instinct. And people may just as much start fighting, because they feel their identity image is under scrutiny.


Again, your Six bias seems to be interfering a bit. "Tend-and-befriend" doesn't come naturally to me. It feels like compromise. I have to go out of my way to attempt it, and it never feels comfortable. Sure, everybody uses that strategy at some point, but it's not easy for some. You could probably even argue, plausibly, that a person either needs to dis/integrate away from their core type or move to another part of their tritype to pull it off. It would be as difficult for me as I suspect absolute certainty in something is for you.



> You might say, to experience Holy Truth is like a state of 'sovereignty', or perhaps the 'oceanic' state Freud refers to, as the self experiences itself 'as one'. In that sense I would agree that an unhealthy 8 has a different notion of 'sovereignty' than a healthy 8.


You might. But from what I understand from my own "spiritual colorblindedness" if you will, I suspect (and cir seems to have said as much) that Holy Truth is simply a lack of the ability to perceive something the rest of us have no trouble with; distinction. A sense of connectedness with the universe is not the same thing as being a blind person in a world of objects, or a colorblind person in a world of color.


----------



## cir

mimesis said:


> That was basically my point. Would you have identified it as shame? I'm not saying you or anyone are supposed to feel shame or guilt or fear or be excited.


 I'm not sure I genuinely understand what "shame" is. lol (I have three in my tritype, could this have something to do with it?)

Not that I defy all stereotypes or anything, but when you look at the enneagram symbol, eights have an additional (1 anger connection, 2 fear connections, and 1 shame connection) and ones have an additional (1 anger connection, 1 fear connection, and 2 shame connections). For me, I can understand my fears, but I can't _feel_ them. I have to _try_ to _feel_ fear; I have to _try_ to _feel_ guilt. My connection to the heart center isn't as strong as one's, so I can't convert my emotions. I have to wait until the anger passes and then see what emotions are left. I've experienced _guilt_, but I'm not sure how that's different from shame? I'm _trying_ to get in _emotional_ touch with my fears, because I think it's _useful_. But I genuinely have little understanding of "shame".

Ironically, I actually have absolutely no troubles with _love_ though, because I experience "love" as the Holy Love way, i.e. a mixture of decision, emotion, and firm commitment. I _see_ and can identify distillations of that everywhere.

Unless you're asking me how I feel when people do that to me? Then I immediately feel anger, and then I have to wait through that aggression-distillation thing I was talking about.


> Thank you.
> 
> I have my own personal journey, but ultimately we need to understand or connect to all holy ideas, not just the one of your type.


 Yup! I've been preaching it! Good luck and have fun!


----------



## mimesis

Zamyatin said:


> @mimesis Without rehashing everything @cir has said, I also found it difficult to identify with much of what you wrote, which has an unmistakable 6w5/5w6 flavor. Some highlights;
> 
> 
> Certainty is not the same thing as "black and white" thinking. I suspect what really seems so odd to you here is the fact that this view is definite and certain. Because both are bounded and defined terms, and you're focusing on that certainty, "black" by itself is synonymous with "black and white" in your mind. Similarly, when you hear "grey", you seem to be associating that with a head-type's fear of committing to a specific claim, when accurately understood "grey" simply means a worldview absent color.
> 
> In other words, grey doesn't represent ambiguity, it represents lack.
> 
> There's a world of difference between the grey of an Eight and the black-and-white of a One. Where someone like cir might have a hard time believing in innocence, in "white" so to speak, I have a similar inability to see anything but extremes. I'm not dogmatic in the dysfunctional fundamentalist way of thought (in fact, my views have radically changed throughout the years), but that's not because I've managed to overcome binary thinking. Instead, my black-and-white tendencies are tempered by two things; one, the recognition that I'm not really able to accurately know everything (so I can't be sure that something is actually black or white), and two, a learned ability to recognize that not everybody is capable of being perfect all the time (learning to be merciful). And even then, when I'm under an extreme amount of stress, these lessons tend to slip a bit, while the belief in the distinction between those two colors is nearly immutable.
> 
> At risk of overusing the color metaphor, when I think "grey", I think something along the lines of a black-and-white computer printoff; while you _perceive_ grey, in reality, it's a mix of black dots on white paper, even if you have to look very closely before the dots stand out. When I reject "black and white" thinking in others, I'm not arguing that grey exists, but that they're making a mistake by seeing a bunch of tiny black dots on a white sheet of paper and saying "that's entirely black" or "that's entirely white". Where I see two colors, and nothing in-between, an Eight sees one color (which effectively means none). That in a nutshell is the difference between a One's moralism and an Eight's pragmatism. Boundaries are meaningless to Eights because they lack the ability to see distinct colors, while boundaries are all-important to Ones because the difference between the colors we see make them so definite to us.
> 
> 
> Again, your Six bias seems to be interfering a bit. "Tend-and-befriend" doesn't come naturally to me. It feels like compromise. I have to go out of my way to attempt it, and it never feels comfortable. Sure, everybody uses that strategy at some point, but it's not easy for some. You could probably even argue, plausibly, that a person either needs to dis/integrate away from their core type or move to another part of their tritype to pull it off. It would be as difficult for me as I suspect absolute certainty in something is for you.
> 
> 
> You might. But from what I understand from my own "spiritual colorblindedness" if you will, I suspect (and cir seems to have said as much) that Holy Truth is simply a lack of the ability to perceive something the rest of us have no trouble with; distinction. A sense of connectedness with the universe is not the same thing as being a blind person in a world of objects, or a colorblind person in a world of color.


Two things.

I think black and white thinking is much more related to health and stress. (cognitive distortion) I didn't make those attributions in the first place which tbh I find a bit silly, for the reason above. 

Just because you can't relate to tend and befriend, doesn't mean it's not an instinctual response. It's more likely for women than for men for who generally fight is more likely than to women. Just statistics, nothing to do with enneatype whatsoever. Perhaps it's a good idea to look beyond enneagram and just focus on available info, and try not to attribute too much behavior to type. (like perhaps body equals 'instincts')


Eta: sorry there was a third one, your last point. It's not about connectedness to the universe, which is more Holy Origin of type 4, which is different from the notion that all is one.



Almaas said:


> Believing that you can be connected or disconnected from God means that you don’t understand the Idea of Holy Origin.


----------



## cir

mimesis said:


> I think black and white thinking is much more related to health and stress.


 Huh, this is genuinely new to me. I have never heard this before. I don't think black-and-white thinking *has* to be related to health and stress, because body types *don't* experience it that way. It *can*, but it *doesn't have to*.



> Just because you can't relate to tend and befriend, doesn't mean it's not an instinctual response.


 We are *not* saying that it's not an instinctual response. But that the *difficulty* puts it in a separate class, because "tend and befriend" and "relating" requires being able to see in color, so to speak. Difficulty, for us, is something measurable, definite; it isn't a subjective evaluation.


> (cognitive distortion) I didn't make those attributions in the first place which tbh I find a bit silly, for the reason above.


 I don't understand this. *We* brought it up because *it matters to us*. When something doesn't matter to you, *but other people brought it up*, it should be a HUGE hint that it matters to them. This is basic projection 101.


> Perhaps it's a good idea to look beyond enneagram and just focus on available info, and try not to attribute too much behavior to type. (like body equals 'instincts')


 But we *are* available info. Each one of us is a source on how we identify with our own type, our own triad. Back to what @_Entropic_ says, some of us believe that the enneagram describes *motivations*, and we are trying to explain our motivations. You don't even have enough faith _to give us the benefit of the doubt_. You rejecting our experiences because it does not conform to what you view are "facts" (that we *must*) is a form of *denial*, *my* main defense mechanic. Which means, I don't *feel* like my *right* to autonomy is being respected, which triggers anger (reacting types be reacting!).



> Eta: sorry there was a third one, your last point. *It not about connectedness to the universe*, which is more Holy Origin of type 4, which is different from the notion that all is one.


 If you trying to say that the Holy Truth *can't* be about something, then you do not understand what the Holy Truth is. Which is how I knew you were describing Holy Faith lol.

The Holy Truth *can be* about the connectedness to the universe, *and* connectedness to the universe *can* *be* "all is one". *Every* single Holy Idea feeds to the Holy Truth, and Holy Truth is *necessarily inclusive by definition of "There exists"*. Notice the directionality in your statements and my statements. "Can be" is more inclusive than "Can be and must".


----------



## mimesis

@cir

Just aside from enneagram. 

There are people (not just Ones) who can be angry, without being present in their anger. They are not aware that they are. So, not being aware of it doesn't necessarily mean they are not angry, that they lack this feeling. They are out of touch with it, but it still affects their behavior and thinking.

And even when people are aware of it, that doesn't mean they are aware of what triggers it. People may decide to attack, when they perceive a threat when there was no. The real trigger for that response may be fear conditioned. Like a traumatic event in the past. Compulsive behavior used to be seen as anger, but they are responses to fear and a need to control. People with OCD for instance often repress their anger.


----------



## mimesis

cir said:


> Huh, this is genuinely new to me. I have never heard this before. I don't think black-and-white thinking *has* to be related to health and stress, because body types *don't* experience it that way. It *can*, but it *doesn't have to*.
> 
> We are *not* saying that it's not an instinctual response. But that the *difficulty* puts it in a separate class, because "tend and befriend" and "relating" requires being able to see in color, so to speak. Difficulty, for us, is something measurable, definite; it isn't a subjective evaluation.
> 
> But we *are* available info. Each one of us is a source on how we identify with our own type, our own triad. Back to what @Entropic says, some of us believe that the enneagram describes *motivations*, and we are trying to explain our motivations. You don't even have enough faith _to give us the benefit of the doubt_. You rejecting our experiences because it does not conform to what you view are "facts" (that we *must*) is a form of *denial*, *my* main defense mechanic. Which means, I don't *feel* like my *right* to autonomy is being respected, which triggers anger (reacting types be reacting!).
> 
> If you trying to say that the Holy Truth *can't* be about something, then you do not understand what the Holy Truth is. Which is how I knew you were describing Holy Faith lol.
> 
> The Holy Truth *can be* about the connectedness to the universe, *and* connectedness to the universe *can* *be* "all is one". *Every* single Holy Idea feeds to the Holy Truth, and Holy Truth is *necessarily inclusive by definition of "There exists"*. Notice the directionality in your statements and my statements. "Can be" is more inclusive than "Can be and must".


Just to remind you we were discussing stress response, with regard to type 6. You felt like making a distinction based on center of intelligence. While I agree that there may be some difference per type, I disagree with this overall distinction. I favor relating this to instinct, perhaps more accurately subtype.

Mind you these instincts likely preceded ego consciousness in humans, as we can see this behavior in other social animals.


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## cir

mimesis said:


> There are people (not just Ones) who can be angry, without being present in their anger. They are not aware that they are. So, not being aware of it doesn't necessarily mean they are not angry, that they lack this feeling. They are out of touch with it, but it still affects their behavior and thinking.


 Right. Facts.



> And even when people are aware of it, that doesn't mean they are aware of what triggers it. People may decide to attack, when they perceive a threat when there was no. The real trigger for that response may be fear conditioned. Like a traumatic event in the past. Compulsive behavior used to be seen as anger, but they are responses to fear and a need to control. People with OCD for instance often repress their anger.


 Here, let me try again to illustrate an average eight's response to this. It should start sounding louder: There exists three types whose central emotional preoccupation is anger. Let's suppose in a pie chart of central emotional concerns, I'm like 60% anger, 30% fear, 10% shame. While _you_ may not understand _your_ triggers, *it does not*, in any possible way, exclude the possibility that I do not know what triggers mine. Since anger *is proportionally* my *biggest* problem, I'm going to *prioritize* that *first*. If you were grounded in the body type, you might eventually realize that emotions are mirrored in the body, and if I can cognitively identify my fears, *but can't emotionally feel it*, then there's a disintegration problem. I am *not* a *type six*, who, *by definition, are most out of touch with their fears*. I recognize that people like you *exist*, now please recognize that people who obsess over different things than you *exist*.

What you are saying can be factually true, which is *irrelevant*. Can you fix it? Then fix it. Anything that isn't fixing those problems is *delaying and making excuses*. I don't understand what part of "*pre-occupation with reality*" that *defines body types* that is so hard to understand. Our discussions about it *is evidence that this* worldview *exists*. Refusal/resistance to accept this can be measured by how often things need to be repeated.


> Just to remind you we were discussing stress response, with regard to type 6.


 In a thread about potential mistypings. Since type six and type eight can be confused for one another, you don't think, for example, an actual type eight to illustrate the differences can be useful?



> You felt like making a distinction based on center of intelligence. While I agree that there may be some difference per type, I disagree with this overall distinction. I favor relating this to instinct, perhaps more accurately subtype.


 Facts (that there exists people who experience something this way) are still true whether you favor it or not. If you aren't careful with your abstraction layers, you can end up disagreeing with facts! And that is why type eight's Holy Idea is the Holy Truth.

Hold on, let me break this down. In a thread about "signs you may be mistyped", where type sixes and eights can misidentify with each other, you think the *fact* that eights are in the anger/gut/body/instinctive/will triad and the *fact* that sixes are in the fear/head/thoughts triad, where the body triad and the head triad represent *different* centers of intelligence... You think this is something you get to disagree on? *How are you measuring this "accuracy"?* You don't even have basic understanding of a minimum of three types!




> Mind you these instincts likely preceded ego consciousness in humans, as we can see this behavior in other social animals.


 Uh, yeah, which is why all of the enneatypes are actually ego formations. Eights are the "ego that sides with the Id", so we distort in that direction better.


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## mimesis

cir said:


> Huh, this is genuinely new to me. I have never heard this before. I don't think black-and-white thinking *has* to be related to health and stress, because body types *don't* experience it that way. It *can*, but it *doesn't have to*.


Any type may think "if you are not with me you are against me".

Check wiki on false dillemma and cognitive distortion. The link with health is that black and white thinking is generally maladaptive.

Feel free to disagree but a healthy One is not so black and white either.




cir said:


> We are *not* saying that it's not an instinctual response. But that the *difficulty* puts it in a separate class, because "tend and befriend" and "relating" requires being able to see in color, so to speak. Difficulty, for us, is something measurable, definite; it isn't a subjective evaluation.


I addressed this, so I'll skip it. 



cir said:


> I don't understand this. *We* brought it up because *it matters to us*. When something doesn't matter to you, *but other people brought it up*, it should be a HUGE hint that it matters to them. This is basic projection 101.[/COLOR]
> But we *are* available info. Each one of us is a source on how we identify with our own type, our own triad.


Well, perhaps don't identify with type? It's strange as it is when you use "we". This is about a type of personality, this isn't about you or me.




cir said:


> Back to what @_Entropic_ says, some of us believe that the enneagram describes *motivations*, and we are trying to explain our motivations. You don't even have enough faith _to give us the benefit of the doubt_. You rejecting our experiences because it does not conform to what you view are "facts" (that we *must*) is a form of *denial*, *my* main defense mechanic. Which means, I don't *feel* like my *right* to autonomy is being respected, which triggers anger (reacting types be reacting!).


We, we, we....Then right to autonomy?



cir said:


> If you trying to say that the Holy Truth *can't* be about something, then you do not understand what the Holy Truth is. Which is how I knew you were describing Holy Faith lol.
> 
> The Holy Truth *can be* about the connectedness to the universe, *and* connectedness to the universe *can* *be* "all is one". *Every* single Holy Idea feeds to the Holy Truth, and Holy Truth is *necessarily inclusive by definition of "There exists"*. Notice the directionality in your statements and my statements. "Can be" is more inclusive than "Can be and must".


Well whatever you say, I disagree. They are all related to one another. They all follow from Holy Truth, not the other way round.


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## mimesis

cir said:


> Right. Facts.
> 
> Here, let me try again to illustrate an average eight's response to this. It should start sounding louder: There exists three types whose central emotional preoccupation is anger. Let's suppose in a pie chart of central emotional concerns, I'm like 60% anger, 30% fear, 10% shame. While _you_ may not understand _your_ triggers, *it does not*, in any possible way, exclude the possibility that I do not know what triggers mine. Since anger *is proportionally* my *biggest* problem, I'm going to *prioritize* that *first*. If you were grounded in the body type, you might eventually realize that emotions are mirrored in the body, and if I can cognitively identify my fears, *but can't emotionally feel it*, then there's a disintegration problem. I am *not* a *type six*, who, *by definition, are most out of touch with their fears*. I recognize that people like you *exist*, now please recognize that people who obsess over different things than you *exist*.
> 
> What you are saying can be factually true, which is *irrelevant*. Can you fix it? Then fix it. Anything that isn't fixing those problems is *delaying and making excuses*. I don't understand what part of "*pre-occupation with reality*" that *defines body types* that is so hard to understand. Our discussions about it *is evidence that this* worldview *exists*. Refusal/resistance to accept this can be measured by how often things need to be repeated.
> In a thread about potential mistypings. Since type six and type eight can be confused for one another, you don't think, for example, an actual type eight to illustrate the differences can be useful?
> Facts (that there exists people who experience something this way) are still true whether you favor it or not. If you aren't careful with your abstraction layers, you can end up disagreeing with facts! And that is why type eight's Holy Idea is the Holy Truth.
> 
> Hold on, let me break this down. In a thread about "signs you may be mistyped", where type sixes and eights can misidentify with each other, you think the *fact* that eights are in the anger/gut/body/instinctive/will triad and the *fact* that sixes are in the fear/head/thoughts triad, where the body triad and the head triad represent *different* centers of intelligence... You think this is something you get to disagree on? *How are you measuring this "accuracy"?* You don't even have basic understanding of a minimum of three types!
> 
> Uh, yeah, which is why all of the enneatypes are actually ego formations. Eights are the "ego that sides with the Id", so we distort in that direction better.


Oh...so I am type 6 now? You are projecting a lot on me. You also come across as very defensive. I suggest we stop this discussion because you seem too much emotionally invested in this. And I don't feel like defending myself against your insinuations or judgements.


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## Zamyatin

mimesis said:


> Any type may think "if you are not with me you are against me".
> 
> Check wiki on false dillemma and cognitive distortion. The link with health is that black and white thinking is generally maladaptive.
> 
> Feel free to disagree but a healthy One is not so black and white either.


I beg to disagree. I've yet to meet a One that is not black and white in thought, including an extremely healthy one that was something of a mentor of mine for several years. There is _always_ an unshakable belief that there is a right and a wrong, even if that certainty is buried beneath various other beliefs that make it unapproachable. Even if you meet a One that is, for example, certain in their belief that you can't know reality and that morality is relative, they're going to hold those views in a way I gather thinking types are incapable. Because forever in the back of the mind of the 6/5/7, there's always a doubt, a fear that "well maybe there _are_ objective truths and morality" that will be absent in the mind of the One, who ironically would be absolutely certain that you can't know anything with certainty.

As I mentioned before, when I'm in a healthier state of mind, I don't actually think in a more polychromatic way. The impression that I'm "seeing color" is simply an illusion that follows my desire to seek more precise understandings of someone's motivations, looking more closely so I can discern the dots. (In other words, when I'm in a healthier state of mind, the progress is in the belief that everybody has both black and white and that nobody is one color exclusively, and as a result everybody should be recognized as containing both bad and good qualities and thus treated with the same dignity and respect as everybody else.) The black and white thought that is included as a symptom of various mental illnesses is a delusion of knowledge, what happens when someone is insecure for some reason and needs to pretend the dots don't exist. It's an abandonment of discernment.


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