# What do you think about adults who use calculators in public?



## LandOfTheSnakes (Sep 7, 2013)

Doesn't everyone have a cell phone with a calculator now haha? Shit, I bet most people could put a fucking graphing calculator on their phone.


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## Devorah T. (Jun 2, 2014)

I always just think it makes the person look like they were prepared. There are lots of times I wish I had a calculator, but I would never be organized or think ahead enough to have brought one with me. :tongue:


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## Devorah T. (Jun 2, 2014)

LandOfTheSnakes said:


> Doesn't everyone have a cell phone with a calculator now haha? Shit, I bet most people could put a fucking graphing calculator on their phone.


Oh shoot...I guess there probably is one on my phone. I just never thought about it. Ha!


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## night_owl (Mar 10, 2014)

john.thomas said:


> I don't even notice, it certainly doesn't make me think less of them.


Me neither


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## night_owl (Mar 10, 2014)

fillet said:


> However, I'll try not to use a calculator when I'm in a shop figuring out how much something on sale costs. I guess I do care in that case.
> 
> 
> A trick that I use, is to figure out what 10% would be and then multiply that to get the sale percentage.
> ...


Wow, that's easy. Maybe I'll use that trick sometime.


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## Aelthwyn (Oct 27, 2010)

sometimes I might get the impression that others think I ought to be embarrassed by not being good at mental math, and that can make me feel awkward, but it's not something I personally think is embarrassing. Especially if you don't often have a need to do math you can just get out of the habit and sort of loose knowledge/ability you may have once had in school, that doesn't mean you're not smart. And then there are those moments where your mind can just blank even on simple things that normally wouldn't be a problem for you.


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## Bahburah (Jul 25, 2013)

It's a tool to do math better.


Thats like opting for absolutely nothing instead of a weapon to fight a bear.

Using tools is our thing.


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## bluefizzure (May 9, 2010)

I use calculators if I don't have Excel running.


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## night_owl (Mar 10, 2014)

Devorah T. said:


> I always just think it makes the person look like they were prepared. There are lots of times I wish I had a calculator, but I would never be organized or think ahead enough to have brought one with me. :tongue:


When my mom sees someone at the store using a calculator she thinks "kudos to them" because it means they won't be one of those people at the checkout with a cart full of stuff and $10 in their pocket.


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## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

Why would it be embarrassing?


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## Emerson (Mar 13, 2011)

Geoffrey Felis said:


> Dick Swinging Jesus is the name of my new rock band !! :laughing:


I'm the lead guitar called "Dildobot-Babydick"


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## night_owl (Mar 10, 2014)

He's a Superhero! said:


> Why would it be embarrassing?


Well I have seen (online) some other people saying it would be, I guess because they think like oh my a grown wo/man can't do math, what a shame! 

That's actually the only reason why I started this thread in the first place. I can't help it, I just feel like I need other people's validation to do something sometimes.


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## magnisarara (Feb 28, 2013)

I'm thinking what scenario could you possibly need a calculator for, there's barely any need for mental math nowadays. I will admit I might find it a little strange if someone just took out a big calculator just I wouldn't expect it but I don't think it's something to be embarrassed over. At the end of the day nobody really cares though


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## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

night_owl said:


> Well I have seen (online) some other people saying it would be, I guess because they think like oh my a grown wo/man can't do math, what a shame!
> 
> That's actually the only reason why I started this thread in the first place. I can't help it, I just feel like I need other people's validation to do something sometimes.


I kinda think that's shallow for someone to think that way just because someone's using a calculator. If you really think about it, we all have bad days when our brains won't seem to function, and a calculator saves the day. Also, it's often quicker when trying to work out big and complex calculations...It's a useful tool, so why not? It'd be like thinking it's embarrassing for someone to use a torch outside at night as we are capable of walking in the dark, and often the moon is bright enough anyway, even though it's still a good idea...and it's certainly a step above counting your fingers, lol! Besides, just about everyone has a calculator on them most times already - mobile phones and other devises usually have calculators (maybe all mobiles do these days), so why not use a tool that's there with you if you need it?

Seriously, this seems like such a ridiculous thing to worry about.


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## Lexicon Devil (Mar 14, 2014)

In math tests above a certain level they let you use calculators.


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## Chest (Apr 14, 2014)

define "in public"


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## night_owl (Mar 10, 2014)

magnisarara said:


> I'm thinking what scenario could you possibly need a calculator for, there's barely any need for mental math nowadays. I will admit I might find it a little strange if someone just took out a big calculator just I wouldn't expect it but I don't think it's something to be embarrassed over. At the end of the day nobody really cares though


Not a big calculator, I mean a little one that's like 2.5"x4" that fits in your hand. Also, people may use calculators (or mental math, if they're good at it) for things like estimating the total cost of items at the grocery store to make sure they have enough money to buy everything.


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## night_owl (Mar 10, 2014)

Chest said:


> define "in public"


Any place outside of your home where there are other people.


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## Knight of Ender (Mar 30, 2014)

I sometimes use a calculator for simple addition, just because I sometimes mix the original numbers up in my head.


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## Fleetfoot (May 9, 2011)

I don't understand how it would be embarrassing. I use one all the time. Granted, a lot of the math I calculate I can usually figure out in my head, but 90% of the time I use it in public for work related calculations which I'm more comfortable knowing I can solve it in my head and double check to see if I'm right.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

night_owl said:


> Hey, OP again. quite a few more responses since I've last visited this thread. I don't know if I mentioned this already, but I'm 19 and I don't even know all of my multiplication tables off the top of my head. How pathetic right.? I never really bothered to practice them in grade school and I can't be bothered to now either :tongue:.... lets hope I never get a job as a cashier and for some reason one day it doesn't automatically show how much cash back to give the person. I'd be standing there and be like, hold on....... *picks up calculator* lol


I'm excellent as a cashier and at handling money and I consider myself "not a math person." I am terrible with abstract math but what you are describing would actually be considered a learning disability I think. How did you graduate from high school?

I'm not trying to be mean but even the "slow math" classes - in fact especially - emphasize things like addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, money and measurement. What you just said is the equivalent of saying you never learned to read English properly and never plan to, let alone do anything abstract or complex with it.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Protagoras said:


> @_night_owl_:
> 
> I see nothing wrong with it, and I have used one at times. There is even a whole movement in the philosophy of mind promoting the idea that there is an 'extended mind'; that the tools we use for all sorts of mental tasks are, in an unusual but important sense, a part of our mind. Think of an elderly woman who is suffering from dementia, but who is still capable of functioning normally; the only thing she needs in order to get around is a little notepad in which she writes some things which she is bound to forget but which are important to her, both in order to function normally and to her as a person. According to the proponents of the 'extended mind', the notepad is a part of her mental activity; it is even a part of her as a person in some sense. To take away her notepad is to harm her. To make her feel embarrassed about using the notepad is to attack her personally. In other words, the notepad is a part of her mind; a part of her person. The same may hold for a calculator. I would say that this would certainly be true for me to some extent, although I am not as bad at 'mental math' as some people are. Most notably, my friend is terrible at 'mental math'. Simple calculations, like '315 + 667' or '65/5', take him a noticeably longer amount of time to complete than me. But yet he is a computer scientist who has to deal with math, even with calculus, on a daily basis, whereas I almost never have to calculate anything these days. Nonetheless, he is an excellent computer scientist who almost never makes a serious mistake and who consistently meets his deadlines, simply because he uses tools such as calculators. He functions properly. In other words, his mind can perform difficult tasks with the right tools, and this is true for almost all minds. I mean, don't our PCs and mobile devices function as mind extensions all day, every day? Where's the essential difference between this and using a calculator, or between using a notepad and using a calculator?


My grandfather was an engineer and he used a calculator all the time. Ironically people who do math more are the ones more likely to even OWN a calculator (that isn't already installed into their smartphone or lap top).


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

niss said:


> I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that you never had a teacher that taught math concepts - particularly at the grade school level.
> 
> I see this all of the time when I am receiving change back after a transaction. If the cash register doesn't tell how much change to return, the clerk is often lost. Properly taught math concepts would eliminate this problem.


Or is it just lack of practice? Like if you don't speak a language you start to lose it. One of my sisters suffers from a disorder on the schizophrenia spectrum and one of the things that she does to "keep her mind" is to do her multiplication tables, because it forces the linear left-brained part of her mind to function.

I mean it's possible a clerk who is busy doing a million zillion other things while running a register is so busy multitasking that they are lost for a minute, because the register/computer is designed to lift part of the work load so that the worker can actually do more work for the small wage earned (those sneaky corporations)...so it doesn't even mean the person running the register has that severe of a disability. In fact that's borderline impossible, unless it's a new trainee. If you can't "keep a cash drawer" you will be punished and eventually fired. You have to be able to count money at a reasonable speed and have a very tiny margin of error. Servers in restaurants often carry huge wads of cash around that they hand in at the end of the night, even topless dancers have to do that. 

Not knowing how to count money and do basic add, subtract, multiply, divide makes you nearly unemployable even for very low status jobs. Some companies give basic math problems in a test before you are allowed to handle money.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

night_owl said:


> I've got a mac, so I have my calculator app right in my dashboard.
> Many people have things that are simply not for them, and for me one of those things is mental math. (except for addition or subtraction of 2 numbers) Lot's of people say its more convenient than using a calculator, but that's only true if its easy for you. I've actually used a calculator for so long now that I've pretty much forgotten how to multiply and divide on paper if I had to (although there are some pretty cool tricks on youtube that show how you can multiply and divide easier/faster such as the box method or the chunking method if I were to relearn to do it on paper), but thankfully the truth is that its not MANDATORY.
> 
> Also, not being able to multiply or divide without a calculator is not as bad as not being able to read and write (like some high school graduates believe it or not)


It is bad. You're functionally mathematically illiterate. It's actually a thing, functional mathematical literacy. You don't even have a disability, you just forgot how to do it. You need to take a class and you should practice. You could do this in a semester at a community college or something, you could probably even find something on-line that would be free or inexpensive. 

This isn't good for your brain. You're only 19. People who suffer from diseases like alzheimer's later in life are people who don't challenge themselves mentally. Of course you may have a wide variety of interests, and may challenge yourself with other subjects, but I urge you to at least re-learn how to multiply and divide on paper. You don't have to do it in your head (though you might want to try memorizing some of your times tables).

I don't think it's embarrassing at all to use a calculator. I do however think it's dangerous to lose mathematical literacy at such a young age if you once had it.


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## Wonszu (Sep 25, 2013)

I rather count in my mind... or on a piece of paper. I'm not good at math (I like algebra and geometry, I'm just not really advanced) but I feel like training with simple counting is important. You know, adding, multiplying... 

If I see someone with calculator I think the said person has either problems with memory or is counting something more complicated than simple adding. You know, someone has a very limited amount of money and has to be sure there is no mistakes. I think I saw only once someone who used calculator during shopping.


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

fourtines said:


> Or is it just lack of practice? Like if you don't speak a language you start to lose it. One of my sisters suffers from a disorder on the schizophrenia spectrum and one of the things that she does to "keep her mind" is to do her multiplication tables, because it forces the linear left-brained part of her mind to function.
> 
> I mean it's possible a clerk who is busy doing a million zillion other things while running a register is so busy multitasking that they are lost for a minute, because the register/computer is designed to lift part of the work load so that the worker can actually do more work for the small wage earned (those sneaky corporations)...so it doesn't even mean the person running the register has that severe of a disability. In fact that's borderline impossible, unless it's a new trainee. If you can't "keep a cash drawer" you will be punished and eventually fired. You have to be able to count money at a reasonable speed and have a very tiny margin of error. Servers in restaurants often carry huge wads of cash around that they hand in at the end of the night, even topless dancers have to do that.
> 
> Not knowing how to count money and do basic add, subtract, multiply, divide makes you nearly unemployable even for very low status jobs. Some companies give basic math problems in a test before you are allowed to handle money.


I'm not talking about people with disorders.

I am talking about people employed in positions that frequently handle money, such as cashiers.

Conceptually, they are math deficient - not a momentary state of confusion.

If the person makes a mistake and punches in that the customer tendered $10.00 instead of the $100.00 that was actually tendered for a $6.75 purchase, and then proceeds to give the customer change in the amount of $3.25, there is a problem - perhaps a momentary lapse, but a problem. When the customer explains that they have received too little change and the cashier tries to give them $33.25, it becomes apparent that they are really struggling. When the cashier then tries to give the customer $103.25, they are guessing.

True story that happened to me, recently. Manager finally came over and correct the problem. Several weeks later, I dropped by again and the cashier is still working there. As long as the register tells him the correct amount of change, he does fine, but he doesn't understand what he is doing - and he's not the only one I've encountered.

If you graduated high school and are headed off to university, yet you can't do basic approximations of the base ten system in your head, a teacher has failed to teach you number/math concepts, somewhere along the way.


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

cremefraiche said:


> Christ, people. It's not like those of us with smartphones don't use the calculator app secretly at dinner.


To do what? Settle an argument about a math concept, or to figure the tip? The first, I can see, but the second shouldn't be.

SWMBO is a teacher and yesterday was the first day of school - a long stressful day. Last night, neither of us felt like cooking, so we went to Olive Garden. I was shocked to see suggested tip amounts (15%, 18%, and 20%) already calculated on the tab. Have we really come to this?


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## night_owl (Mar 10, 2014)

fourtines said:


> It is bad. You're functionally mathematically illiterate. It's actually a thing, functional mathematical literacy. You don't even have a disability, you just forgot how to do it. You need to take a class and you should practice. You could do this in a semester at a community college or something, you could probably even find something on-line that would be free or inexpensive.
> 
> This isn't good for your brain. You're only 19. People who suffer from diseases like alzheimer's later in life are people who don't challenge themselves mentally. Of course you may have a wide variety of interests, and may challenge yourself with other subjects, but I urge you to at least re-learn how to multiply and divide on paper. You don't have to do it in your head (though you might want to try memorizing some of your times tables).
> 
> I don't think it's embarrassing at all to use a calculator. I do however think it's dangerous to lose mathematical literacy at such a young age if you once had it.


I personally disagree that its bad for peoples' brains if they can't do math on paper. I personally don't think that using a calculator all the time is hurting anyone's brain. I don't think I need to take any classes for this nor do I have any desire to. If for any reason I NEEDED to relearn math on paper, I could do it at home easily, but the thing is like I said its not required.


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## intjonn (Apr 20, 2013)

I use one all of the time in public especially when I'm working...... My degrees are in Mathematics and Engineering. Mathematicians and engineers - We're the ones that invented all of this calculator & computer, etc. stuff for people........







*<<<<=========take it frum a koon!*

.....we invented it because none of us can add.:laughing:


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## pernoctator (May 1, 2012)

fourtines said:


> It is bad. You're functionally mathematically illiterate. It's actually a thing, functional mathematical literacy.


So I read the definitions of math literacy you linked to, and I don't see how you have come to this conclusion from the fact that she can't do mental / paper calculations. The fact that OP uses a calculator in public tells me that she is math literate -- otherwise, what is she doing with it? As I wrote earlier in the thread:



pernoctator said:


> Whether calculations are done by a person or a machine is an irrelevant detail, you still need to have an understanding of math -- that is, understanding how numbers relate to each other and how they apply to the real world -- in order to use the machine effectively *or* mentally process it.


"Know the fundamentals of adding, subtracting, multiplication, and division" does _not_ mean "memorize times tables" or "know _x_ technique for working out a division on paper". It means understanding the concepts and how to apply them. If you can pull out a calculator and accurately find totals and cost per unit etc., you understand the fundamentals and are mathematically literate. Calling someone mathematically illiterate because they don't do long division is like calling someone illiterate because they don't do calligraphy. When you don't understand what a word problem is asking for, or that one third is larger than one quarter, or how many inches 5'5" is, _then_ you might be math-illiterate.





niss said:


> Last night, neither of us felt like cooking, so we went to Olive Garden. I was shocked to see suggested tip amounts (15%, 18%, and 20%) already calculated on the tab. Have we really come to this?


Yesterday afternoon, I went grocery shopping. I was shocked to see the door already opening for me as I walked up to it. Have we really come to this?

Heaven forbid we add convenience to things that people should already be able to do in a slightly less efficient manner!


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## Nekomata (May 26, 2012)

I use one all the time. I generally suck at math and am not ashamed to admit it, much *coughcough* it also seems easier than just standing there trying to work something out when you can just find out the answer straight away using a calculator.


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## night_owl (Mar 10, 2014)

Nekomata said:


> I use one all the time. I generally suck at math and am not ashamed to admit it, much *coughcough* it also seems easier than just standing there trying to work something out when you can just find out the answer straight away using a calculator.


Same here...... because I failed to practice it enough in grade school.


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## night_owl (Mar 10, 2014)

niss said:


> To do what? Settle an argument about a math concept, or to figure the tip? The first, I can see, but the second shouldn't be.
> 
> SWMBO is a teacher and yesterday was the first day of school - a long stressful day. Last night, neither of us felt like cooking, so we went to Olive Garden. I was shocked to see suggested tip amounts (15%, 18%, and 20%) already calculated on the tab. Have we really come to this?


 In all honesty, I couldn't leave a tip at a restaurant without a calculator (if I was by myself) or unless the other person calculated it for me (if I was with someone). I know its as simple as: bill total x 0.15 (for a 15% tip for example), but I wouldn't even know where to begin if I attempted to figure this out mentally.


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

pernoctator said:


> Yesterday afternoon, I went grocery shopping. I was shocked to see the door already opening for me as I walked up to it. Have we really come to this?
> 
> Heaven forbid we add convenience to things that people should already be able to do in a slightly less efficient manner!


IKR, because sitting at a table eating a meal overloads my brain, in a manner very similar to how, when my hands are full of groceries, it is difficult to open the door. /sarcasm

There is a difference between convenience and catering to ignorance.


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## Elyasis (Jan 4, 2012)

night_owl said:


> In all honesty, I couldn't leave a tip at a restaurant without a calculator (if I was by myself) or unless the other person calculated it for me (if I was with someone). I know its as simple as: bill total x 0.15 (for a 15% tip for example), but I wouldn't even know where to begin if I attempted to figure this out mentally.



Let's say your total is 32 dollars... for a 15% gratuity you would move the decimal place up one to start with... so 3.2. And then half of that... 1.6. Add them together... 4.8... That's the tip! Then you just add it to the total, if it's necessary.. not all restaurants do it that way. That would make 36 dollars and 80 cents. Most people just round up though if they are using cash so they have a tip of 5 dollars and a total price of 37 dollars. It's that easy.


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## pernoctator (May 1, 2012)

niss said:


> IKR, because sitting at a table eating a meal overloads my brain, in a manner very similar to how, when my hands are full of groceries, it is difficult to open the door. /sarcasm
> 
> There is a difference between convenience and catering to ignorance.


Wheelchair-bound people seem to have no trouble using button-operated doors. So why do we need proximity sensors? Does carrying groceries disable you more than being in a wheelchair? Is the existence of sliding doors and sensors an insult to your pushing strength and motor control? No? Then why is the existence of pre-calculated tips an insult to your mental capacity? I daresay pushing a button or door costs even less time and effort than mentally calculating 15 percent of a given value. This is costing the restaurant nothing, in exchange for slight added customer appreciation. Did the pre-folded napkins also offend you?

Catering? Catering is a restaurant's entire reason for existing. You could have made your own meal, but you were lazy. No, there isn't a difference. The "ignorance" bit is an assumption on your part. I don't believe the restaurant thinks people are incapable of doing their own math, just as I don't believe it thinks you are incapable of making your own meal or folding your own napkins.


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

night_owl said:


> In all honesty, I couldn't leave a tip at a restaurant without a calculator (if I was by myself) or unless the other person calculated it for me (if I was with someone). I know its as simple as: bill total x 0.15 (for a 15% tip for example), but I wouldn't even know where to begin if I attempted to figure this out mentally.


This is exactly what I am talking about. You are not lacking in math ability, but in conceptual understanding of number/fractions/ratios/percentages and how they all relate. You don't need a formula to approximate a percentage - especially when we are discussing simple arithmetic, such as this.

My contention is that this should have been taught conceptually to you so that you don't need a formula to calculate a percentage, but that you could look at the number in question and easily calculate the desired percentage.

There are several ways of doing this, but an easy one is to calculate 10%, divide that in half, and add the 10% to the half to get 15%.

As an example, suppose your bill at the restaurant was $35.63 for you and a friend to eat and you want to leave a 15% tip. Move the decimal one place to the left to divide by ten, so 10% is $3.56. Divide $3.56 by 2 to get $1.78. Add $3.56 to $1.78 for a total of $5.34 for your 15% tip. Do this if you want to be precise - and yes, I did this in my head while typing this out.

If you don't want to be exact, you can divide by 6 and round down. So your amount is almost $36.00, so divide by 6 and you get $6.00, which is close enough for tipping. (Six works (approximately) for 15%; 5 works for 20%; 4 works for 25%. This is true because 1/4 is the same as 25/100, 1/5 is the same as 20/100, while 1/6 is equal to 17/102).

What I am saying with all of this is that you are not "math dumb" but that you don't understand the relationships between numbers. This is similar to someone reading a book who has learned phonetics and can sound out/pronounce the words correctly, but doesn't know the definition of the words. The definition brings out the relationships between the words and allows us to understand what is being communicated, which is similar to math concepts. This should have been taught and emphasized when you were in grade school, no later than 5th grade. The problem is that teachers sometimes expect their students to understand the concepts without ever really teaching them. Instead, they focus on the mechanics of long division, borrowing when subtracting, carrying when adding, and rote memorization of the multiplication tables.

This is the result.

If you are interested, here is a quick rundown of percentage concepts.


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## pernoctator (May 1, 2012)

niss said:


> What I am saying with all of this is that you are not "math dumb" but that you don't understand the relationships between numbers. This is similar to someone reading a book who has learned phonetics and can sound out/pronounce the words correctly, but doesn't know the definition of the words. The definition brings out the relationships between the words and allows us to understand what is being communicated, which is similar to math concepts. This should have been taught and emphasized when you were in grade school, no later than 5th grade. The problem is that teachers sometimes expect their students to understand the concepts without ever really teaching them. Instead, they focus on the mechanics of long division, borrowing when subtracting, carrying when adding, and rote memorization of the multiplication tables.
> 
> This is the result.
> 
> If you are interested, here is a quick rundown of percentage concepts.


I agree that this is a problem with education, but I think you're making a big leap by assuming she doesn't understand these concepts, which is frankly patronizing. There is a difference between knowing that 15% is about one sixth, and being able to easily divide by six in your head.


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

pernoctator said:


> Wheelchair-bound people seem to have no trouble using button-operated doors. So why do we need proximity sensors? Does carrying groceries disable you more than being in a wheelchair? Is the existence of sliding doors and sensors an insult to your pushing strength and motor control? No? Then why is the existence of pre-calculated tips an insult to your mental capacity? I daresay pushing a button or door costs even less time and effort than mentally calculating 15 percent of a given value. This is costing the restaurant nothing, in exchange for slight added customer appreciation. Did the pre-folded napkins also offend you?
> 
> Catering? Catering is a restaurant's entire reason for existing. You could have made your own meal, but you were lazy. No, there isn't a difference. The "ignorance" bit is an assumption on your part. I don't believe the restaurant thinks people are incapable of doing their own math, just as I don't believe it thinks you are incapable of making your own meal or folding your own napkins.


You keep pulling out scenarios that aren't related. You cited an example of grocery stores, now you want to change it to people in wheel chairs since the first example didn't work. Maybe if we continue this long enough you'll find an example that is actually a correlation?

Grocery stores do this auto opening door because people have their hands full - whether or not they are in wheel chairs. Back in the day, when we didn't have proximity sensors, the exit doors had sensors in the approach mat that when weight was applied, would open the door. The entrance door lacked this mat, since people's hands weren't full when entering the store - they could push the door open without assistance.

However, this created a new problem. When bringing in carts off of the lot, the employees found it easier to use the exit door, since it stayed open as long as weight was applied, thereby allowing one person to bring in the carts, instead of two. Fast forward fifty years and we have huge stores with a lot of traffic and proximity sensors, avoiding a bottleneck due to the number of people that are walking in and out. Surely you didn't think that grocery stores were doing this out of the goodness of their hearts?

By comparison, most department stores don't have automatic opening doors, due to lower traffic volume. (Those that sell groceries and dry goods do, because of the grocery component.)

However, those department stores fall under the ADA, so they include a button to push for anyone that is handicapped - just as they have to have the flush handle on the toilet nearest the most open area of the bathroom stall. Again, you didn't think this was business execs thinking of ways to make people's lives easier, did you? Business execs are notoriously focused on money - buying low and selling high, while spending as little as possible.

Money is a restaurant's reason to exist. Yes, it is a convenience, but that is why we go there, right? However, truth be told, the restaurant isn't including the tip amount because people can't figure a tip - although that is often the case. Instead, they are including it as a reminder not to stiff the wait staff, since people are so ignorant that they don't realize a tip is an expected part of the service. Of course, it would be simpler to actually pay a living wage and let tips really be tips, but now we've come full circle back to the idea of business execs cutting costs and selling high.


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## SeeThoseStars (Aug 24, 2014)

There isn't anything wrong with using a calculator in public. At least you know it'll be almost 100% accurate! cx


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## Grad0507 (Dec 12, 2013)

Why the concern, OP?


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

pernoctator said:


> I agree that this is a problem with education, but I think you're making a big leap by assuming she doesn't understand these concepts, which is frankly patronizing. There is a difference between knowing that 15% is about one sixth, and being able to easily divide by six in your head.


It is not patronizing and she has admitted to not understanding the concepts. These concepts are simple things, but people try to teach them in difficult ways, so it becomes intimidating. As a child, a person becomes conditioned to thinking that math is hard because no one has taken the time to explain the concepts. The goal of a teacher is to reach the student through whatever means is necessary. When they fail, we end up with people going into liberal arts degrees, not for the love of what they are doing, but to escape the evils of science and math, which they do not understand.

Advanced math is hard, just as advanced sciences, advanced literature, or any other discipline. But the stuff we're discussing is very simple and can be understood by any average fifth grader - if they've been taught correctly.


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## pernoctator (May 1, 2012)

niss said:


> You keep pulling out scenarios that aren't related. You cited an example of grocery stores, now you want to change it to people in wheel chairs since the first example didn't work. Maybe if we continue this long enough you'll find an example that is actually a correlation?


You don't seem to be paying attention. The original analogy does work, and I'm still using it -- I used the wheelchair example to support its applicability. I'm asking why we need sliding automatic doors as opposed to swinging or button-operated ones. Your history lesson on grocery stores is irrelevant. The point is that they've added convenience that is only slightly significant, yet appreciated nonetheless. Again: _"I daresay pushing a button or door costs even less time and effort than mentally calculating 15 percent of a given value."_


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## pernoctator (May 1, 2012)

niss said:


> It is not patronizing and she has admitted to not understanding the concepts.


Where?




niss said:


> These concepts are simple things, but people try to teach them in difficult ways, so it becomes intimidating. As a child, a person becomes conditioned to thinking that math is hard because no one has taken the time to explain the concepts. The goal of a teacher is to reach the student through whatever means is necessary. When they fail, we end up with people going into liberal arts degrees, not for the love of what they are doing, but to escape the evils of science and math, which they do not understand.


Yes, and a prime example of teaching math in unnecessarily difficult ways is the emphasis on paper or mental hand-calculation. The result is people feeling ashamed about using a calculator. I argue that memorizing times tables and mechanical repetitive paperwork hinders actual understanding of concepts _more_ than encouraging calculator use would.


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

pernoctator said:


> You don't seem to be paying attention. The original analogy does work, and I'm still using it -- I used the wheelchair example to support its applicability. I'm asking why we need sliding automatic doors as opposed to swinging or button-operated ones. Your history lesson on grocery stores is irrelevant. The point is that they've added convenience that is only slightly significant, yet appreciated nonetheless. Again: _"I daresay pushing a button or door costs even less time and effort than mentally calculating 15 percent of a given value."_





pernoctator said:


> Where?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've explained myself sufficiently. You go and have yourself a real nice day.


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## bluekitdon (Dec 19, 2012)

night_owl said:


> Just wondering.... I'm poor at mental math, but my parents say that's not a big deal at all and there is nothing wrong with using a calculator.


Nothing really wrong with using a calculator, but if you can do some basic addition, division, and multiplication in your head it can make your life a bit easier especially when doing something like trying to shop on a budget. Much beyond that type of stuff I don't think anyone is going to make fun of you for whipping out your phone as a calculator. Now maybe if you're carrying around a calculator the size of your head everywhere I might make fun of you, but that's more of a fashion decision, lol.


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## pernoctator (May 1, 2012)

niss said:


> I've explained myself sufficiently. You go and have yourself a real nice day.


Really? I suppose so, if you're defining "sufficient" as meeting a certain post content quota... I mean, you did manage to fill a screen with the history of grocery stores, but... while it's interesting, I don't see how it serves your point.

Unless your point was that businesses wouldn't put money toward a convenience without enough requirement or return, and therefore there really _must_ be a pressing need in today's society for pre-calculated tips?

And to that, well, I would remind you again that doing this is costing Olive Garden absolutely nothing. You didn't think they were hiring someone to calculate and type it out on every bill, did you? It's completely automatic, and probably a reused computer program that was written years ago as a one-time job, with a total extra effort of about 5 minutes to add the tip output to the program. So you want to talk money? That's nothing compared to what restaurants put into every other aspect of their atmosphere. If even one customer over 10 years was swayed toward their restaurant because of it, the investment would have been more than worthwhile.

You also avoided my question: Where did OP admit to not understanding the concept of percentages?


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## Glenda Gnome Starr (May 12, 2011)

yes, i use a calculator in public. it is in my cell phone. my cell phone is a "stupid phone," but it does have a calculator feature. this includes a regular calculator and a tip calculator. the tip calculator also includes a feature so that i can divide the restaurant bill among a group, assuming that everyone has decided to pay an equal share. it is a very convenient function. with the regular calculator, i can figure out the cost of something, including sales tax, which is very useful. i am ok with most adding up but the percentage involved with the sales tax makes my head swim.


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## night_owl (Mar 10, 2014)

Elyasis said:


> Let's say your total is 32 dollars... for a 15% gratuity you would move the decimal place up one to start with... so 3.2. And then half of that... 1.6. Add them together... 4.8... That's the tip! Then you just add it to the total, if it's necessary.. not all restaurants do it that way. That would make 36 dollars and 80 cents. Most people just round up though if they are using cash so they have a tip of 5 dollars and a total price of 37 dollars. It's that easy.


Wow, thanks! I didn't think it would be that simple. :crazy:


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## night_owl (Mar 10, 2014)

bluekitdon said:


> but if you can do some basic addition, division, and multiplication in your head it can make your life a bit easier especially when doing something like trying to shop on a budget.


Yes it can if, like I said, mental math is easy for you.


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## bluekitdon (Dec 19, 2012)

night_owl said:


> Yes it can if, like I said, mental math is easy for you.


That basic stuff is just a matter of practicing a lot. I started out not doing well in math until mom made me practice over and over, eventually ended up being one of my best subjects although I never did particularly enjoy it.


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## Elyasis (Jan 4, 2012)

night_owl said:


> Wow, thanks! I didn't think it would be that simple. :crazy:


Yeah, there are a lot of little tricks like that. Most of them you can figure out on you own if you can break things down into smaller, more manageable, parts.:kitteh:


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## Psychophant (Nov 29, 2013)

bluekitdon said:


> That basic stuff is just a matter of practicing a lot. I started out not doing well in math until mom made me practice over and over, eventually ended up being one of my best subjects although I never did particularly enjoy it.


For some, but learning disabilities like Dyscalculia can make it very difficult for a handful of the population to do math regardless of how often those people practice their times tables. I think that if you're capable of mastering basic math, then you probably should take the time to do it since wielding a calculator wherever you go is going to end up being a bigger nuisance than taking a little extra time to practice, but if you hate math so much that you'd rather pull out your phone every time you need to crunch numbers, go ahead.

Also, if you're bad at mental math and you don't need precision, just round a lot. It obviously makes things a good bit easier.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

night_owl said:


> I personally disagree that its bad for peoples' brains if they can't do math on paper. I personally don't think that using a calculator all the time is hurting anyone's brain. I don't think I need to take any classes for this nor do I have any desire to. If for any reason I NEEDED to relearn math on paper, I could do it at home easily, but the thing is like I said its not required.


You can disagree all you want, but from what you stated, you are mathematically illiterate and yes that's bad for your ability to even reason. You need to know how to multiply and divide or you are mathematically illiterate, I'm not sure what you don't understand.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

pernoctator said:


> So I read the definitions of math literacy you linked to, and I don't see how you have come to this conclusion from the fact that she can't do mental / paper calculations. The fact that OP uses a calculator in public tells me that she is math literate -- otherwise, what is she doing with it? As I wrote earlier in the thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She said she doesn't know her times tables and said she's been multiplying on a calculator so long that she is not sure she can even do multiplication and division on paper (we aren't talking about ability to do algebra or trig, or even do math in her head, just basic math on paper!!!) ...that's mathematical illiteracy. I am not sure how she even graduated high school unless she cheated the entire time in her math classes enough to pass.

No one is asking her to do long division for fun, or to even do huge multiplication problems in her head, but to simply be able to function like a high school graduate, and her attitude is what is poor, not her ability. She said she doesn't even want to take a class in math to brush up, and from another thread I saw, this person has never even had a job. She's lazy. I'm not going to enable her, but help yourself, I'm sure she'll love your enabling.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

night_owl said:


> Same here...... because I failed to practice it enough in grade school.


Then do it NOW. You said you don't want to take a class. Why should anyone feel sorry for you? You aren't disabled, you were lazy and not pushed to learn as a child, and now as an adult you are making excuses.

I am not good at math, not in the sense of things like algebra or calculus. I had to take remedial math in college but then ended up making an A later in my college math course. People like you frankly make me sick, because you don't even TRY. You aren't even willing to take another class to learn what you missed at a younger age, and YES this will affect your brain, it's sort of like not flexing a muscle, like never using some of your fingers and letting them atrophy. Nope, that's not good for your brain.

No one is saying "never use a calculator" but saying you don't even remember know how to multiply on paper puts you mathematically in elementary school.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

niss said:


> I'm not talking about people with disorders.
> 
> I am talking about people employed in positions that frequently handle money, such as cashiers.
> 
> ...


I started cashiering in high school, in my experience people who had short tills or who made major mistakes like that more than once were let go or moved to a different department (for example you can stock if you can't handle money or work with people). It's possible that the person had an anxiety attack and the manager kept them around for some reason you and I both are unaware of, because if they didn't give you 93.25 after they figured out you gave them a hundred dollar bill, that person obviously isn't competent enough to handle money UNLESS they had a lapse of reason due to being frightened or panicking. 

I have had many jobs where I had to handle money, even jobs where I had to be bonded. I remember doing basic math problems to even have certain part-time hourly wage jobs.

I'm curious as to what company would allow someone like that to handle their company's money, because eventually the store manager and company could suffer if they hired too many people like that. It's not cost efficient. It's not even time efficient to have to call a manager every time something like that occurs.


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## night_owl (Mar 10, 2014)

fourtines said:


> Then do it NOW. You said you don't want to take a class. Why should anyone feel sorry for you? You aren't disabled, you were lazy and not pushed to learn as a child, and now as an adult you are making excuses.
> 
> I am not good at math, not in the sense of things like algebra or calculus. I had to take remedial math in college but then ended up making an A later in my college math course. People like you frankly make me sick, because you don't even TRY. You aren't even willing to take another class to learn what you missed at a younger age, and YES this will affect your brain, it's sort of like not flexing a muscle, like never using some of your fingers and letting them atrophy. Nope, that's not good for your brain.
> 
> No one is saying "never use a calculator" but saying you don't even remember know how to multiply on paper puts you mathematically in elementary school.


You know what, I don't really care what you think of me. If I'm "mathematically in elementary school", fine, let me be. If you don't like my attitude, well, that's just too bad. and no, it will not make my brain atrophy. Doing math in my head (or on paper) is NOT the only way to keep my brain from atrophying.


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## Turlowe (Aug 4, 2014)

I really can't see what would be wrong or embarrasing with using a calculator in public, unless perhaps you were using it to scratch your arse. I'm actually quite good at lower maths, but I still carry one for the times I need to calculate something complex quickly. If others think that one should be embarassed by this, well, thats just silly.


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## Loaf (Mar 27, 2014)

Personally not bothered, I do it sometimes if I doubt myself.


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