# Enneagram is simply a more complex version of the seven deadly sins!



## Zidane (Sep 9, 2015)

Look at this stuff. All this talk about vices and virtues. This emotion is bad, this emotion is good...
Type 1: Anger is bad.
Type 2: Pride is bad.
Type 3: Lying is bad.
Type 4: Envy is bad.
Type 5: Greed is bad.
Type 6: Fear is bad.
Type 7: Gluttony is bad.
Type 8: Lust is bad. (We all know how religions love to demonize sex...)
Type 9: Sloth is bad.

There it is folks. Here is all the bad things. Now to be good you have to do all the opposite things (listed under virtues...). Doesn't this seem a bit too old school? This comes straight from the middle ages and you can't even see it (even though most of you are atheists I think which is funny...), because it's presented in an entirely new package.


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## JpKoff (Oct 30, 2017)

Uh that's like page 2 of the Riso Hudson book actually ^^


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## JpKoff (Oct 30, 2017)

Releasing anger is not necessarily bad, letting anger dominate and consume you is bad. Same for all types.
The only time when you can totally get rid of those nine fixations or sins, is when you're dead. 
Self-actualization requires letting go of destructive behaviors based on over-fixations, that's not to say "never be angry, never be proud" and so on.... you still have to be a living human being. it's about balance, not void IMO.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Wow, there are so many faulty assumptions in the original post that it's hard to know where to start. i guess I'll just start at the end.



Zidane said:


> So imo it promotes psychological imbalance because it strives for puritarianism instead of emotional balance. Is fear of a tiger bad? Is a white lie bad? Is a bit of indulgence bad? Is a bit of anger to release bottled up steam bad? Is masturbation bad? (Well apparantly it is according to the enneagram because I would say that's based on lust...)


The passions, or sins as you called them, are extremes. Balance is about finding the antidote to that extreme. I think of it more as a continuum or range between the passion and the virtue where you find a way to pull yourself back from the extreme when the passion starts to take over exclusively.

1. Anger vs. Serenity
2. Pride vs Humility
3. Deceit vs. Truthfulness
4. Envy vs. Equanimity
5. Avarice vs. Detachment
6. Fear vs. Courage
7. Gluttony vs. Sobriety
8. Excess vs. Innocence
9. Laziness vs. Action

Your post just seems to argue a binary choice - one extreme or the other. That binary choice creates the imbalance not the passion-virtue continuum. 

I'm guessing what's really got up your craw though is the Christian implications of this. Personally, I don't use the dictionary definition or that implied by the "sins." The Enneagram types have redefined those words. To take them literally completely misses the point of them. The types we use today came from psychology by way of a psychiatrist named Claudio Naranjo. He got them from Oscar Ichazo who placed the labels on the symbol originally. There are a lot of labels and such that we're stuck with from Ichazo's original teachings but much of that got reinterpreted as the types evolved into what they are today. 

IMO, too many people take the words literally and think that's what the types are about. One reason the types take so long to understand at a deeper level is that you have to go beneath this literal interpretation to discover the actual experience the words are attempting to point out. All this baggage from the earlier labels and the symbol itself really needs to be dropped and a modern understanding of it be written but the resistance to the effort is immense for a number of reasons.


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## Octavarium (Nov 27, 2012)

Is the Enneagram simply a more complex version of the seven deadly sins? Or is the Enneagram complexly a more simple version of the seven deadly sins?


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## Quenzo (Jul 2, 2018)

I guess it is a bit reductive to simply think of the Enneagram as binary vice/virtues..but I don't know, it's strangely poetic the way each type is based around fighting a particular sin.


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

Um the deadly sins are strategies people employ when they do not trust. Just because it's in the bible as a part of religion does not make it "wrong". Lust and sex are different. Lust is the desire to obtain power which usually starts out sexually and the power is used over others in the form of seduction, manipulation, or temptation. Have you ever been whipped? Made a sex slave? Okay take away the sex part and what do you get? A whipper like in racist times and a slave that is working for the other. It's happening a lot these days and it's wrong. It creates a lack of trust and operates as an individual's desire to thrive. It's deadly because you can't warm up yourself ... unless you meditate. Which is why yoga, video games, etc are popular these days as ways to meditate. 

And by the way, the religion calls them a deadly sin because they are roadblocks/barriers in the way of sex lol. The goal is sex, not shame of sex. Lust is in the way of trust is in the way of sex. 

And religion is bad because you shouldn't fucking trust everybody. OR have sex with everybody lol. Jesus was like a kundalini yoga master and figured out how to be a manwhore which made him really good at being able to give. His struggle being of course giving too much. 

I can elaborate on the other sins and explain why they are motivated by lack of trust in others and why they can be deadly (which usually is because you end up alone following the sins).


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Starting with niggling point that the deadly sins are not listed in the Bible, though they did become part of early Christian thought, and I think are a good way to categorize certain behaviour; I'm speaking from a religious perspective but I think it's highly incorrect to say that 'this emotion is good this emotion is bad' is either a religious concept or what the seven deadly sins/Enneagram are about, because:

-in Christian thought a sin is not the same as an emotion, a sin is always an action (for example 'feeling lustful' is not a sin unless you actively encourage it)

-and don't forget sins can be and are forgiven, are meant to be replaced by virtues, the value can be from fighting them, and the same core personality trait can be used for good or bad, very similar to Enneagram healthy and unhealthy versions of same type

-We've had 'this emotion is good/this emotion is bad' since time immemorial, since that one caveman went off his rocker and got really angry and killed half the people in the village for no reason, after that they started coming down hard on random anger

-All these things are bad, or can turn bad, whether it's old-school or not

_Type 1: Anger is bad._ Anger can definitely be bad, it can lead to war, destruction, and treating other people like shit. It is not _always_ bad, there is such a thing as righteous anger - standing up for someone else or yourself, protecting people, righting wrongs, but if it's indulged at every turn then a person is going to be always convinced of the rightness of their cause, causing more destruction and punishment than necessary, exaggerating perceived slights, etc. Anger tempered with patience, compassion, empathy, and judgement is a good tool but the wielder needs to know how to control it. 

In Enneagram 1s problem is internalizing and justifying anger, 8s is indulging in it wantonly and carelessly, and 9s is not recognizing or acting on the need for anger, so I don't think Enneagram is saying 'anger is bad', nor does Christianity say 'anger is bad', snapping at someone because they accidentally ran into you is bad, punching a family member during an argument is bad (probably), seeing someone being wronged and stepping in to defend them is very good

_Type 2: Pride is bad._ Pride is bad, because if you have a bloated sense of your own self-worth and what you're contributing to a situation, you can hurt people around you and yourself...if you're sure you can't be wrong and so go through with the military operation you'll be risking your own life. You need to see yourself in proportion to the world around you, realize that they have things to offer as well as you, realize that while you might make a pretty good cake you didn't invent cake either. You have to be willing to be wrong, willing to be on a level with other people, willing to let them be a person as well, which people can overlook in pride.

C.S. Lewis said that all sins come from pride, I think it can be seen as true

_Type 3: Lying is bad._ I'd probably say lying isn't always bad, but it tends to come from somewhere bad (pride, manipulation, or simply lack of respect for someone else, and it often causes trouble...and there's a difference between a few white lies and a life built on lies, that's harmful for the person, who can't connect to the truth or truthfully connect, and harmful for the people around them, who are never let in and given false information to work with

_Type 4: Envy is bad._ Envy means either that you don't value yourself, and want traits of other people, or are not satisfied with what you have, are looking resentfulness at what someone else has instead of gratefully at what you have. Think it's easy to see as sad rather than a sin (well, sins are sad) but an envious life isn't a happy one, and it does come from a place of pride (I know what's best for me, I know what I deserve) and lack of faith and hope. You're better off if you work for what you want, or look at your pile of treasures and make the best of them, rather than just looking over at someone else's and thinking 'what an idiot what did he do to be so lucky why can't i have that?? why not me??', it's better for other people when instead of envying them their good fortune you are happy for it and have empathy for their struggles, not schadenfreude. Self-pity, while alluring, doesn't really get anyone anywhere, and you could get around the world in your hot-air balloon in the time you're wishing you had a plane.

_Type 5: Greed is bad._ Yes, it is, when first person killed their friend so they could eat have more of the mammoth for themselves, to when people nowadays buy brand name clothes while people are starving, it's definitely not good

Also, holding onto things, not reaching out to other people, it's not good for you in the end

_Type 6: Fear is bad._ Obviously not always, but no one wants to live life like a rabbit, always thinking something's coming to get them. Of course something big is coming to get all of us - death - but I think accepting that and not letting fear of that ruin your life.

_Type 7: Gluttony is bad._ Yes, it's taking more than you need or can use, we know it's not healthy for the human body to eat more than it needs, and it's not good for other people if you take everything, there needs to be moderation in life. Joy can become completely oversaturated for a person who is very gluttonous, we become addicted to all the little highs, need to be willing to live through the lows and middles, and learn to sacrifice as well.

_Type 8: Lust is bad._ Very similar to gluttony, but I think in the Enneagram context it can apply to using people, seeing them as objects to be conquered one way or the other

Actual lust is not very good either, not the same as a libido, but if for example you sleep with half the people you meet, or end up just seeing them as a sexual end, that's going to seriously cloud your thinking and limit your ability to connect genuinely and have fully-functioning relationships

_Type 9: Sloth is bad._ Yes, it's good for people to do things, both for themselves and for their society, no one liked the guy who just pretended to hunt the mammoth 

And seeing something wrong and not helping because you think it'll work out on its own is negligent


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Yeah simply...
As if the notion that God would punish you if you did X,
compare to trying to trancend the essential flaw that the deadly sin implied.


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## VinnieBob (Mar 24, 2014)




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## VinnieBob (Mar 24, 2014)

Zidane said:


> Look at this stuff. All this talk about vices and virtues. This emotion is bad, this emotion is good...
> Type 1: Anger is bad.
> Type 2: Pride is bad.
> Type 3: Lying is bad.
> ...


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

@vinniebob

Reminds me of the Animated movie of dantes inferno.
Too bad it has been DMCA'ed off youtube, but there are AMV vids to give one the gist of it at least.


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## VinnieBob (Mar 24, 2014)

Inveniet said:


> @vinniebob
> 
> Reminds me of the Animated movie of dantes inferno.
> Too bad it has been DMCA'ed off youtube, but there are AMV vids to give one the gist of it at least.


my white name is Daniel
on da streets dey call me dantey


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

vinniebob said:


> my white name is Daniel
> on da streets dey call me dantey


I would have imagined they called you Daddy .. But Dantey is a good porn name as well :tongue:


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

vinniebob said:


> my white name is Daniel
> on da streets dey call me dantey


Found it with a little help from Google.
As for porn, there is at least boobs I seem to remember.
Some kinky stuff in the dungeon with the devil and such.

https://www1.watchfull.me/movie-online/dantes-inferno-an-animated-epic/OpLO


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## Zidane (Sep 9, 2015)

vinniebob said:


> you have 9 listed
> yet only 7 deadly sins
> 
> you have fear as bad
> ...


Oh no shit, just because there's 2 more, that somehow invalidates the whole point, even though the other 7 are exactly the same? Just go spam somewhere else bot. All your posts are basically crap and you try way too hard to be funny. Guess the old man's losing brain cells. Natural proces of aging, happens to everyone...

Also funny how you people like to point out that it didn't come from religion, but from Gurdjieff, as if that somehow makes it more valuable? WHAT? I'm sorry but I just don't get a hard on for Nietzsche lookalikes and definately not mystics and guru's. I don't care if it's more complex, "deep" and expansive, because if the core of it it just seems silly and outdated, then why do you think the rest is going to be valuable? You can build a nice, big castle with sand, I'm just pointing it that it's actually still just sand... Which is strange, because it should be obvious... You want spirituality? Self-improvement? Well, maybe you should stop focusing on your fucking personalities because focusing on the self is never going to fill up that void. Why does anyone who is not a drug addict even care about self-improvement? Just please answer me, why? What is the point? Do you want to become an ubermensch? Well, that path has been tried over and over again and is a silly one because all of these people died anyway just like everyone else. Looks like they forgot the fact that they're actually mortal... Mortality means you're going to self-destruct eventually, go why focus on self-improvement? (Hence people who have benefited society/others, they understand what it's about, because that service doesn't get destroyed... ...) 

So just accept the fact that you're not perfect and there's nothing to improve, only acceptance and learning to be content with your and other's flaws. What I'm trying to say is that this whole personality business is no different than cosmic surgery, instead you're striving for mental instead of physical perfection, and there's no end to it... All of these so-called "sins", they're just like unwanted body parts that you're trying to replace (with the virtues).. I'm just saying, small boobs aren't necessarily a problem... A little bit of sin here and there is actually nothing really bad at all. (They're just one of many emotions that need to be in balance.) Unless you think only nuns and monks are virtuous? Well, I'll give you my opinion, these people are really imbalanced. Just because a person doesn't show anger doesn't mean he doesn't have anger, he's probably just blocking it... Just like an intentionally celibate person is blocking sexual energy, aka the "sin of lust". 

Another thing is that these so called personalities aren't actually fixed in stone, but simply expressions of your being that change from time to time. You're actually all personalities, but sometimes this emotion or this mental state is on the foreground of your cosnciousness. This is another reason why I say this stuff is outdated because how is this compatible with neuroplasticity? Thiking you're going to be the same type all your life is just wtf... I certainly am not the same person as I was 10 years ago.


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## Ecchi (Jun 26, 2018)

Proud to be a 7w8. Glutton and lecher, one of the most sensual Enneagram combinations.


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## Zidane (Sep 9, 2015)

Ecchi said:


> Proud to be a 7w8. Glutton and lecher, one of the most sensual Enneagram combinations.


Oops, well the enneagram disagress with you. Only 2's have the pride vice... 

(Also, why are you proud of your porn addiction?)


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## crazitaco (Apr 9, 2010)

vinniebob said:


>


You know who that dude's voice kinda sounds like?


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## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

Zidane said:


> Another thing is that these so called personalities aren't actually fixed in stone, but simply expressions of your being that change from time to time. You're actually all personalities, but sometimes this emotion or this mental state is on the foreground of your cosnciousness. This is another reason why I say this stuff is outdated because how is this compatible with the fairly recent discovery of neuroplasticity? Thiking you're going to be the same type all your life is just wtf... I certainly am not the same person as I was 10 years ago.


Being a different person from the one you were ten years ago =/= being a different personality type. It seems to me that you struggle with understanding the basic notion of what 'type' means.

For the sake of easy understanding, I'll use a dictionary's definition:
"_the characteristics of a group of people or things that set them apart from other people or things, or people, things, or groups that share particular characteristics_"

Personality type, by definition, sets an individual apart from another individual by creating groupings based on shared characteristic. As such, it is impossible to be "_all personalities_."

*Whether type changes is a separate issue from this.*

In the case of the Enneagram of Personality, it is part of its theory that one's type doesn't change, at least not in the horizontal direction (i.e. changing from having a type 2 personality to having a type 3 personality). *However*, it is theorized that one's type does change in the vertical direction: the levels of development, as thought of by R&H, exemplify this idea.

So you see, the Enneagram already addresses the issue that you bring up; the fact that personality is not set in stone.


I should also mention that the Enneagram does not focus on emotional or mental 'states.' Rather, it seeks to explain inborn temperament and other pre-natal factors.


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## Ecchi (Jun 26, 2018)

Zidane said:


> Oops, well the enneagram disagress with you. Only 2's have the pride vice...
> 
> (Also, why are you proud of your porn addiction?)


The pride vice means you can't turn to others for help with anything because you think it's shameful/weak. Different than being proud of who you are.

And sexy things are always good.


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## VinnieBob (Mar 24, 2014)

Zidane said:


> Oh no shit, just because there's 2 more, that somehow invalidates the whole point, even though the other 7 are exactly the same? Just go spam somewhere else bot. All your posts are basically crap and you try way too hard to be funny. Guess the old man's losing brain cells. Natural proces of aging, happens to everyone...
> 
> 
> comparing the 7 deadly sins to tri types is pretty moronic:facepalm:
> ...


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