# Do you think this is a response to rational women? I found it funny.



## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

I've recently become obsessed with the Manosphere community. If you dont now what that its basically men who are tired of behaving too masculine. Apparently they feel that women dont care about men anymore and theyve had enough. Ive been on quite a few blogs and read alot of comments but I feel like this forum summed it up alot for me. The women they are talking about is what I will probably be when I enter the career field. Whats wrong with a women who is independent? What wrong with a woman who has her own money and is dressed nicely? Who has high self esteem? Who is confident? How is this a problem? 

Do any of you ever have a problem with less confident people projecting their inferiority complex on to you? 

While I think people are always entitled to their opinions I think this might have to do with a bit of jealousy. I find it amusing how no one is admitting that the real problem is that they feel like they dont qualify to these women. I only 22 and in college but I wonder if older rational women have had problem with men like this?

well, he is the link:

Girl, you're too masculine

Im interested to see what you all think.


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## quadrivium (Nov 6, 2011)

Wow. Where the hell do I start? 

"_I'm with you on this. If she looks like a woman but thinks and acts like a man, she's a man. There are a lot of girls out there that have not yet been corrupted by feminism and sex and the city. They are usually insecure, but that's fine. She'll put more effort into you._" 
This is the funniest thing I've ever read. 

NT women are pretty rare. Not all of these women and these experiences are NT. Some are just career girls focused on their career. I am not much older than you, but I am fighting tooth and nail to get into my career field. 

In my opinion, it takes a very strong man to run along side me. NT women in general are independent, rational, focused and sort of cold at times. I need a man to love me for me. 
I have never had the patience to deal with an insecure, childish man-babies anyway. And if my "bitchiness" or "manliness" has kept them away, I am grateful.


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## RogueWave (Mar 16, 2011)

Chipps said:


> Whats wrong with a women who is independent? What wrong with a woman who has her own money and is dressed nicely? Who has high self esteem? Who is confident? How is this a problem?


Absolutely nothing. The problem is those "guys" (and I use that term lightly) would have been just as intimidated by a man who possessed those same attributes. You already hit the nail on the head: it's the projection of an inferiority complex. The subject of this particular projection just happens to be female.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

@RogueWave

I would honestly hate to think how many men are like this. I have come into contact with them, and to be quite honest you can see their self esteem shrivel up. Its kind of hard to explain but once, there was this guy I worked with at a college dining hall, he was about 6'1 and im a healthy 5'11 and female. Anyway, one day he said " I could never date a tall girl. I would be laying my head on her chest instead of her laying her head on mine." I thought it was funny because the comment was completely unwarranted and he said it because I was standing near him. Guess he wanted me to hear him? 

Another time me and this same guy were chosen out of everyone we worked with the sit in on a meeting and give our opinions on the project they were working on. Im assuming they asked me to sit in because they respected my opinion which is what they all told me, BUT after the meeting me and this guy went back to work and overheard him say: "They asked me to sit in because I gave the most logical opinion, they asked Chipps to sit in because she was the loudest." 

I think its hilarious when men refuse to acknowledge my rational attitude. I was direct and straight forward and they all appreciated it but he couldn't give me that credit which was due. I didnt even bother saying anything to him about it. I quietly chuckled to myself when I heard him say because I knew he was showing me how insecure he was. 

@corgiflatmate

I agree with you. I couldnt imagine not dating an non-NT. Not saying I wouldnt if the person had a developed T but I would honestly prefer an INTP or INTJ male. I want a man who allows me to flourish as much as I want but stops me from going overboard. If someone doesnt stop me I will at times. But who also doesnt relinquish full control to me. I will subconsciously take it but become resentful later. I dont get why people think I want to control them. I dont want a mate that has to be controlled. It would be annoying. Is it too much to ask for someone who is comfortable and confident in themselves? I want someone to stand side by side as well. Sure, I have no problem deferring to him if he is better than me or more qualified to lead in a certain aspect of the relationship, but I find it laughable when men think they should lead 100% simply because they have a penis and XY chromosome. Thats really arrogant to me. Why can't a man work along side his mate? 

I think about it like this: If my husband lost his job I would think he would want to be married to someone who would go out and fill the void of income by earning more to offset the loss. I dont get why people marry other people that cant naturally pick up the slack if needed. To me, that doesnt equal stability. But I guess thats just then ENTJ in my always planning for the worst case senario.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

Forgot to add above:

I thought that guy was a SFJ. His girlfriend was at least a foot sorter than him and was extremely quiet and followed his lead. Can't say I have a problem with that. If it floats their boat great. I just didn't get why he was offended that I dare to be different then what he "liked in a women".


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## Aßbiscuits (Oct 8, 2009)

Every career minded woman is not NT.


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## quadrivium (Nov 6, 2011)

Chipps said:


> @
> [MENTION=29002]corgiflatmate
> 
> I* want a man who allows me to flourish as much as I want but stops me from going overboard.* If someone doesnt stop me I will at times. *But who also doesnt relinquish full control to me. I will subconsciously take it but become resentful later*. I dont get why people think I want to control them.* I dont want a mate that has to be controlled. It would be annoying. Is it too much to ask for someone who is comfortable and confident in themselves? I want someone to stand side by side as well*.* Sure, I have no problem deferring to him if he is better than me or more qualified to lead in a certain aspect of the relationship*, but I find it laughable when men think they should lead 100% simply because they have a penis and XY chromosome. Thats really arrogant to me. Why can't a man work along side his mate?
> ...


My sentiments exactly. I don't want to be dominated and I don't want to dominate either. I don't have daddy issues and I don't want to be your mother! I want an equal partner. Because of the person I am, I need a strong man to keep up with me.


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## Erudis (Jan 23, 2011)

Are these people for real?
There's not a single response there that isn't extremely sexist. I wouldn't even waste my encephalic mass trying to understand or argue with them.

I just hope the scientists hurry up with that "stab people over the internet" device they're building.


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## birthday (Feb 6, 2011)

I like a woman with a masculine streak. Isn't it a turn-on? You can have a kitten or you can have a lioness. Which would you pick? Grrr...


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## L (Aug 12, 2011)

I feel sorry for these people because they have so many bias' blocking their understanding of the world..... why would somebody intentionally limit their very own potential?


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

Aßbiscuits said:


> Every career minded woman is not NT.


Haha, sorry.

i DO realize that. wasnt trying to say they all were. I guess that assumption was coming from that fact that most the majority of NT women would fit into this mold of "career woman". I also think though that a lot of the women they were talking about have to exhibit alot of rational traits to do the jobs they are doing regardless of actual type. you should see me trying to play nice with small children.


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## kiskadee (Jan 9, 2009)

> Have you just tried reckless cavemen escalation to try and drive them out of their asexual shell?





> I've tried this approach with a similar demographic. If you shake the tree hard enough, something will eventually fall out.
> 
> Deep down, these chicks are craving someone to cram them back into their feminine role. If they're hot enough to be worth the effort, I'd try it out.





> Yeah, acting less masculine is not the right way to game these women. What these women require is over the top alphaness that even trumps their own. That's what turns them on. Unless a woman is looking for a provider or has logically concluded that she can only get along with a beta male (common with masculine women) no woman in the world prefers a man who is less alpha.
> 
> I can't stand these women because I find it exhausting to have to fight against their over-the-top masculinity with even more over the top alphaness all of the time.
> 
> I just want to kick back and have a feminine woman succumb to my natural masculinity. Its much, much easier with feminine women in that you aren't fighting a "who's more alpha" battle against her masculine traits all of the time.


It genuinely frightens me that people like this exist.


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## L (Aug 12, 2011)

Grish said:


> It genuinely frightens me that people like this exist.


It flabbergasted me... I edited my post like 4 times trying to find something sufficient to say. I actually debated just having a mod delete it for me, still am debating it actually. I knew people like this existed but I was somewhat suprised by how well they typed. Classic narcissist smart man's mistake I suppose? Or could be that they try to appear better than they are?

My post still doesn't seem to "fit" right with what I wanna say.... and that pisses me off....


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## quadrivium (Nov 6, 2011)

L_Lawliet said:


> It flabbergasted me... I edited my post like 4 times trying to find something sufficient to say. I actually debated just having a mod delete it for me, still am debating it actually. I knew people like this existed but I was somewhat suprised by how well they typed. Classic narcissist smart man's mistake I suppose? Or could be that they try to appear better than they are?
> 
> My post still doesn't seem to "fit" right with what I wanna say.... and that pisses me off....


Yeah I edited mine several times too. It's like we know these people exist. We don't see them all together in one instance. It's dizzying.

Also, like I said "Where do I start?" There are so many things to touch on... 
SMDH


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

The worst part?

There are blogs and websites out there that feed this attitude. It all started with the pick up artist scene and has turned into the flame throwing bullshit.

They all talk about how the man has to get the upperhand in the relationship or else the girl will. I will admit, there are alot of shitty women out there. ALOT. There are equally alot of shitty men. With that said I dont hate ALL men just because of the bad group of apples. How is that people cant think outside the box that is their lives? 

I havent even started dating since Im in college and plan to focus on a career afterward. The manosphere has convinced me that by the time Im ready to settle down all good people will have turned to shit.


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## L (Aug 12, 2011)

I decided to make a new thread regarding this kind of attitude in the general psychology sub forum too. Here is the link if anybody is interested.


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## Isis (Jul 8, 2010)

what a great thread (ours, not theirs).... my mouth is flapping open as I type this...

Interestingly, I have worked with a lot of people who share these ideas, which is a bit challenging. 

It's also a helpful look into why I never managed to snag myself a husband. The last couple of guys who wanted me to marry them actually said some of this kind of stuff: I was too ambitious and made them feel bad and I should be more loving and selfless and have a crappier job than they do. 

Of course, the question of why anyone would want one of those particular gems remains open for me. If the only way you can be comfortable in a relationship is to be with someone you can easily fool and dominate, why bother? And what does that say about you as a person?


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## Isis (Jul 8, 2010)

RogueWave said:


> Absolutely nothing. The problem is those "guys" (and I use that term lightly) would have been just as intimidated by a man who possessed those same attributes. You already hit the nail on the head: it's the projection of an inferiority complex. The subject of this particular projection just happens to be female.


I really do not think they are "intimidated" by confident men... they want to get on their team. There's a lot of bonding going on on this forum... but I do wonder why "charimen" and other executives have time to be chatting like this...

...perhaps they are impostors?


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## Isis (Jul 8, 2010)

and the rest of the forum is worse...


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## quadrivium (Nov 6, 2011)

Isis said:


> Of course, the question of why anyone would want one of those particular gems remains open for me. If the only way you can be comfortable in a relationship is to be with someone you can easily fool and dominate, why bother? And what does that say about you as a person?


Right? I'm sure this is offensive to ALL women, not just NTs. Why anyone would choose this is unbeknownst to me as well.


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## quadrivium (Nov 6, 2011)

DeductiveReasoner said:


> T
> Just wondering, did any of you NT ladies come across as "intimidating" during high school because of your nature? I have people who are scared of me and I've never even talked to these people in my life


I'm still a college student. I've been called "aloof", "terrifying", "intimidating" and some others. I think confident quietness (not shyness) must really throw some people off.



Peripheral said:


> I can see where the comments sound sexist, but there's a good bit of truth in there.


I am curious to see which examples you are specifically talking about. The first four or something seemed honest, then it just derailed into madness. 




TheBoss said:


> J
> 
> Insecurity when unnoticed by the individual, is both hilarious and malicious.
> Real men, may have preferences of course on looks and even attitude but, are never intimidated. They can see the femininity inside every woman. Ugly or hot, smart or stupid, strong or weak, it doesn't matter; they are still women.
> ...


This is why I said I need a strong man, you know. Somehow my NT-ness raises the bar. I don't want to be stronger than my partner. I really don't; that sounds exhausting. I need someone who is equally minded to me. I believe myself to be feminine in my own right.

Perhaps that's what these men were getting at, but I didn't get strong-good-man-capable-of-being-a-good-father-/provider-and-an-equal-partner vibe from any of them.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

TheBoss said:


> Just <3 everything in that post.
> 
> I too laughed with the linked thread. Then I remembered a real life incidence - and laughed even more:
> Tall, skinny, professor guy, snorted his opinion on how* small stature women are so much more feminine and how assertive, tall ones are men in disguise*. He said that to me, looking thoroughly snobby (I am tall btw) the first and last time we talked.
> ...


First off let me say THANK YOU. For your entire post.

I too am tall. 5'11'' and a woman and let me tell you men and women are intimidated by it. I posted about his in another thread I would link it but I cant find it. Anywho it was a guy I worked with that would make these sly comments about my height. Unwarranted of course. Mind you he was 6'1 and had a girlfriend that was about 5'2 and EXTREMELY quiet and demure and would just follow him about. 

I can respect a person being attracted to petite women. Lets all admit that they are in fact cute. BUT what I didnt get is why he felt the need to put me down because I wasnt his "ideal" body type. I always wonder if these men realize that all they are doing is revealing how insecure they are as men. If you arent attracted to a certain body type then by all means you dont have to date that person but what use do have voicing that hate? Except to put someone else down and build yourself up? I too found out later from a girl I became friends with that "hooked up" with im before he met his gf that he had a small thin penis. Mind you she was really petite and said she felt bad when she saw it and gave him a blow job. 

He never knew that I knew. 

Now on to the forum:

Isnt it always so that these people have NO idea that they are the insecure ones? Now I will admit that I am human just like everyone else and I do get jealous or envious of other people BUT i admit that Im being jealous or envious. Emotions cannot always be controlled but you can rationalize them. I acknowledge that i feel like _Im_ lacking am jealous of that person. I dont project that shit on to them. I suck it up and usually jealousy or envy turns into admiration and I try to absorb what it is that I like about the person. WHY CANT OTHER PEOPLE DO THIS????

Finally, for the last part I highlighted, you are SO right. Can I give you a gold medal for this? Is that allowed?  People who are truly strong what someone else that is equally strong. People cannot accept this fact and I think I know why. 

First, women who are complete bitches that are overly aggressive and/or lacking in self confidence or self esteem with try to chalk up their behavior to being "strong" when it is NOT. Its just projecting your insecurities onto other people.

Secondly, the patriarchy definitely catered to men. Lets all admit to that. Before the womens rights movement women blindly followed men. The society dictated. Now with women being about to work outside the home and acquire higher educations and more independence this has caused a huge chip on male shoulders. 

STOP: Let me state that I am not a feminist and do not hate men at all. Allow me to clarify.

Before, men were heads of household regardless if they were technically qualified. Its hard for some people to accept though men tend to be more logical or rational than women as a whole not all men are more logical or rational than women. So if you were a woman and you go stuck with one of those irrational men you didnt really have a choice you had to be a wife. I dont get why people keep equating this 1950's and before lifestyle with happiness. Ive seen blogs where these men actually believe that these women were happy because that "was the way it is supposed to be." Now sure, some were, but lets be honest they didnt have any other options so being a mother and housewife is what everyone was conditioned to be. 

Now that women are out of the household I think a lot of men (like ones in the forum and others) are assuming that women dont want men or want to follow men. Like Ive stated before I have no problem following my future husband. I will be his equal and he will be mine. But if he is better qualified to deal with a certain aspect of our union (ex. finances, taxes etc) then I will leave it to him. But a real man would also know his limits and know that he does not excel at everything and its not an attack on his masculinity. I don't think anything happened to masculinity or femininity. I believe that they have simply been redefined and alot of people refuse to accept that fact. Men not longer have the birth right of having a obedient wife because they were born male. That pisses them off. That truly is what it is. Now, you have to be a quality man _worth_ following or partnering with. Often when Im reading these blogs, comments, and forums in the mansphere I often wonder:

"_With all the time they are spending here bitching, they could be working on themselves. If they put a 1/10 of the time they spend on these websites into building up their self esteem and confidence and worth then they would have found happiness. What does crying do for the current situation between men and women?_"

I would try to talk some sense into them but something tells me "sense" isnt what theyre looking for. 

Sorry for the long post.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

@redmanXNTP

haha. I do remember that conversation we had. If I recall correctly I told you that there was not point in acting "feminine". I would just like to state:

You were right. 

Though you honestly wouldn't have been able to convince me of that then. It wasnt even that long ago, but I honestly have grown as a person. I feel like Im just now coming into what it means to be a "woman". Maybe Im peaking late? Though, I will probably never define my femininity in conventional terms I think I am coming out of this weird do-what-i-want phase. I know older people always tell youngsters like me that you do a lot of growing during your late teens/early 20's but I actually feel it now. Probably what has sparked my interest in world of dating and men/women relations. In lieu of sounding inexperienced let me say that I do currently have a bf so Im not too wet behind the ears but hopefully you get my point.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Chipps said:


> @redmanXNTP
> 
> haha. I do remember that conversation we had. If I recall correctly I told you that there was not point in acting "feminine". I would just like to state:
> 
> ...


Cool. Good for you, not for saying I'm right but for growing. Don't ever stop growing either. Life experience only gives you more opportunity to do it. Pride and apathy tend to be our biggest obstacles.

I'm not too proud to say that it took until my mid-30's and 1 failed marriage before I took the first major leap forward in personal growth in 20+ years.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

redmanXNTP said:


> Cool. Good for you, not for saying I'm right but for growing. Don't ever stop growing either. Life experience only gives you more opportunity to do it. Pride and apathy tend to be our biggest obstacles.
> 
> I'm not too proud to say that it took until my mid-30's and 1 failed marriage before I took the first major leap forward in personal growth in 20+ years.


Well thanks to advancements in technology Im able to connect with people all over the world through the internet so it probably is alot easier for my generation as opposed to yours. Thats why I don't understand how it seem that people are actually growing at a much slower rate. People my age act like teenagers did 60 years ago. Oh the plight of being 22 in 2011. 

Thanks for the advice. I will never stop growing. I don't think I could if you tried to stop me. I am always in a constant state of absorbing information so that alone will impact and change my perspective of my life and the world. I think we live in a society where were conditioned to get to a certain point and then stop. Which, I think is the reason a lot of people run into problems in the long run. Doesnt your personality become set after a certain point in your life? 30's maybe? Anyway, even still I can't imagine my personality being at the same degree constantly throughout my life. Sure, I'm stubborn. Probably a lot more stubborn than I should be but I will loosen that grip over time, as I feel it already happening, but stubbornness is apart of who I am as a person. That part will probably never change.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Chipps said:


> Well thanks to advancements in technology Im able to connect with people all over the world through the internet so it probably is alot easier for my generation as opposed to yours. Thats why I don't understand how it seem that people are actually growing at a much slower rate. People my age act like teenagers did 60 years ago. Oh the plight of being 22 in 2011.
> 
> Thanks for the advice. I will never stop growing. I don't think I could if you tried to stop me. I am always in a constant state of absorbing information so that alone will impact and change my perspective of my life and the world. I think we live in a society where were conditioned to get to a certain point and then stop. Which, I think is the reason a lot of people run into problems in the long run. Doesnt your personality become set after a certain point in your life? 30's maybe? Anyway, even still I can't imagine my personality being at the same degree constantly throughout my life. Sure, I'm stubborn. Probably a lot more stubborn than I should be but I will loosen that grip over time, as I feel it already happening, but stubbornness is apart of who I am as a person. That part will probably never change.


Absent trauma, psychiatric disorder, chemical addiction, etc., our basic personality and temperament is set by the age of 10 or so, maybe earlier. 

I think our society worships and romanticizes youth too much, in terms of appearance and lack of responsibility/accountability. We tend to minimize the wisdom that comes with age. Part of it is because we're more mobile socially and geographically than ever before, and grandma and grandpa don't live in town, the guest house or the extra bedroom anymore. It's too bad as I think it's a major cause of the very problems you identify.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

redmanXNTP said:


> Absent trauma, psychiatric disorder, chemical addiction, etc., our basic personality and temperament is set by the age of 10 or so, maybe earlier.


Interesting. This makes a lot of sense actually. I was really introverted when I was a kid. Not because I was shy but because I didn't enjoy the typical elementary school kid conversation. You know teasing and what not. For as long as I could remember Ive always be very aware of who I was even though I couldnt put it into words. Does that make sense? Ive always thought that my childhood made me tough, but now that I think about it I was already tough before it turned bad. 



redmanXNTP said:


> I think our society worships and romanticizes youth too much, in terms of appearance and lack of responsibility/accountability. We tend to minimize the wisdom that comes with age. Part of it is because we're more mobile socially and geographically than ever before, and grandma and grandpa don't live in town, the guest house or the extra bedroom anymore. It's too bad as I think it's a major cause of the very problems you identify.


I agree. I didn't get a traditional childhood. I had to grow up fast but I never really felt like I missed that much. I understand allowing your kids to be kids. But I consider 10 and under to be "kid" age ranges. After that they hit puberty and by that point their on their way to adulthood. You wouldn't believe how many full grown "adults" in college can't handle their own finances (rent, savings), legal issues (ex. apartment leases, underage drinking), and having to work a whole 10-15 hours a week while going to school without their parents swooping into to save them. I can't lie though, I am learning what kind of parent not to be so I guess its become a learning experience. People don't seem to realize that if you kick them out of the nest they will have not choice but to fly. They will always fly.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Chipps said:


> Interesting. This makes a lot of sense actually. I was really introverted when I was a kid. Not because I was shy but because I didn't enjoy the typical elementary school kid conversation. You know teasing and what not. For as long as I could remember Ive always be very aware of who I was even though I couldnt put it into words. Does that make sense? Ive always thought that my childhood made me tough, but now that I think about it I was already tough before it turned bad.
> 
> I agree. I didn't get a traditional childhood. I had to grow up fast but I never really felt like I missed that much. I understand allowing your kids to be kids. But I consider 10 and under to be "kid" age ranges. After that they hit puberty and by that point their on their way to adulthood. You wouldn't believe how many full grown "adults" in college can't handle their own finances (rent, savings), legal issues (ex. apartment leases, underage drinking), and having to work a whole 10-15 hours a week while going to school without their parents swooping into to save them. I can't lie though, I am learning what kind of parent not to be so I guess its become a learning experience. People don't seem to realize that if you kick them out of the nest they will have not choice but to fly. They will always fly.


I completely identify. I was more comfortable around adults than kids even when very young, and I had a very remarkable amount of circumspection and mature perspectives at a young age, though certainly not always or always in a productive way. My parents helped this by being intelligent, empowering me by exposing me to adults and adult situations and etiquette, but I'm definitely wired this way. It's what being an NT is about. 

And yes, I too have always had good insight into myself from a Ti-Ne perspective, though much of it was iNtuitive until later in life; weak Fi though, of course. :wink:


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

redmanXNTP said:


> I completely identify. I was more comfortable around adults than kids even when very young, and I had a very remarkable amount of circumspection and mature perspectives at a young age, though certainly not always or always in a productive way. My parents helped this by being intelligent, empowering me by exposing me to adults and adult situations and etiquette, but I'm definitely wired this way. It's what being an NT is about.
> 
> And yes, I too have always had good insight into myself from a Ti-Ne perspective, though much of it was iNtuitive until later in life; weak Fi though, of course. :wink:


Im not gonna lie, my ideal child would be an NT. I think that desire is born out of the fact that I want to be the parent I never had, and also since NTs are less common I want to do my part to keep the "breed" alive. Haha. I honestly think that is the only reason to have kids. Not necessarily to pass my genes to them, but to pass my thoughts, ideas and perspectives about the world. Thats probably why I wouldn't mind adopting.


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## TheBoss (Oct 27, 2011)

Chipps said:


> I do remember that conversation we had. If I recall correctly I told you that there was not point in acting "feminine". I would just like to state:
> 
> *You were right. *


ENTJ, ladies and gentlemen! ^
:kitteh:


Chipps, you are not late bloomer, you are NT. Same with this:



> I am always in a constant state of absorbing information


Btw, I had a great laugh about the guy you mentioned. Hahaha XD
If I may offer a different view on patriarchy, I say you stick to - real - ancient history, as it is not exactly as they teach it:

1. Read the beginning of Plato's Symposium: Socrates is KICKED out of his house because his wife is having a party with her girlfriends.
2. Check Aristophanes and see that there was an all-female national holiday (during which women drunk and partied while men were grounded) while there was NONE for men.
3. Read about Atalanta, one out of many women physically strong and skilled, that men killed and died for her. She too wanted strong men. She married the only man that outsmarted her and myth goes they mated like bunnies all around the place ever since. :laughing:
4. Both sexes had equal separated athletic games but both competed together in mental games (the later managed to happen only very lately in our 'civilized' societies).

And remember Odyssey's daddy was off the palace and his son could not grab the throne. Because the throne was Penelope's. There was maternal right of succession from mother to daughter in pre-classic Greece. Men were not slaves or inferior. But women before christianity and its likes, were *not* the house enclosed semi-slaves that we are taught today.

Digression but within the general spirit of the thread I hope. :happy:


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

TheBoss said:


> ENTJ, ladies and gentlemen! ^
> :kitteh:
> 
> 
> ...


I really appreciate the information. I have become enlightened yet again. See, this is the reason I visit this site. I'm not in the position where I can focus my energy on the issue that I really like which is currently philosophy, psychology, classic literature and poetry etc. I want to be able to just read but I can't due to college classes and work. I will take what you said though, and file under "things to read after college". Thanks.

Oh, and about the "blooming", is this a true for other NT's as well? I feel like I'm like 4 years behind everyone else. Tsk!


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## Farean (Jun 7, 2011)

Monkey King said:


> Thanks for the laugh.


Yeah, that was my reaction too when I saw that some time ago. It's still funny.


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## heartturnedtoporcelain (Apr 9, 2010)

I feel sick with rage right now. Men like this are despicable human beings and they probably don't even openly show these horrendous attitudes. It only strengthens my need to talk publicly about feminism and peoples' attitudes towards women - I would hate to mistakenly befriend or like someone who holds such opinions.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

heartturnedtoporcelain said:


> I feel sick with rage right now. Men like this are despicable human beings and they probably don't even openly show these horrendous attitudes. It only strengthens my need to talk publicly about feminism and peoples' attitudes towards women - I would hate to mistakenly befriend or like someone who holds such opinions.


I pretty sure men like this can sniff out a feminist. They probably avoid you like the plague. The women the were referencing weren't even engaging them, the men seemed to only be an observer. I'm definitely not a feminist, but I would enjoy watching on rip into one of these assholes.


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## heartturnedtoporcelain (Apr 9, 2010)

Chipps said:


> I pretty sure men like this can sniff out a feminist. They probably avoid you like the plague. The women the were referencing weren't even engaging them, the men seemed to only be an observer. I'm definitely not a feminist, but I would enjoy watching on rip into one of these assholes.


Shit, they probably could. They would see how strongly opinionated I am and head for the hills. I generally don't like engaging - I find it hard to be actively mean to somebody (urgh, lame feeler-ness) - but I would fucking love to rip into those creeps.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

heartturnedtoporcelain said:


> Shit, they probably could. They would see how strongly opinionated I am and head for the hills. I generally don't like engaging - I find it hard to be actively mean to somebody (urgh, lame feeler-ness) - but I would fucking love to rip into those creeps.


I get it. Though sometimes your aren't in the position where can lay into assholes like this. When that happens I find all I need to do is become an "intimindating" force in the room. Like I said, I can hear their dicks shrivel up as I approach. Though it might have something to do with that fact that I'm 5'11'' and I stand taller than most men. You'd be surprised how acting completely aloof, uninterested and impassive will mess with people. They hate it when they can't "read" you.


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## heartturnedtoporcelain (Apr 9, 2010)

Chipps said:


> I get it. Though sometimes your aren't in the position where can lay into assholes like this. When that happens I find all I need to do is become an "intimindating" force in the room. Like I said, I can hear their dicks shrivel up as I approach. Though it might have something to do with that fact that I'm 5'11'' and I stand taller than most men. You'd be surprised how acting completely aloof, uninterested and impassive will mess with people. They hate it when they can't "read" you.


I would love to be able to fuck with horrible people like that. I'm afraid, however, that I'm open book. I try and put on a particularly umm serious and strident tone when I want to be taken with utmost seriousness, but I'm afraid that that probably validates the 'women are slaves to their emotions' stereotype. What they neglect to understand is that one can be emotionally invested in rationally formed ideas (in fact, that applies to women as well as feeler stereotypes )


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

heartturnedtoporcelain said:


> I would love to be able to fuck with horrible people...


Haha. Its pretty interests. Sure there are downsides to doing this since it is often seen as "unfeminine" though I still have yet to understand that reasoning. But Id say the benefits out weigh the risks.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Chipps said:


> @redmanXNTP
> 
> haha. I do remember that conversation we had. If I recall correctly I told you that there was not point in acting "feminine". I would just like to state:
> 
> ...


I haven't read this completely, but this might interest you given this discussion.

It's written about perception of women lawyers in the courtroom which is obviously a pretty unique environment particularly as it involves overt competition, but there are certainly going to be concepts that you can apply in the general business world.


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## Isis (Jul 8, 2010)

heartturnedtoporcelain said:


> I feel sick with rage right now. Men like this are despicable human beings and they probably don't even openly show these horrendous attitudes. It only strengthens my need to talk publicly about feminism and peoples' attitudes towards women - I would hate to mistakenly befriend or like someone who holds such opinions.


My guess is that many of them do show these attitudes. I know I have encountered a lot of this in my working life. I hope you're feeling a bit better now.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

TheWholeEnglish said:


> "I've been meeting alot of 30-40 yo girls lately". This sentence drives me nuts. Really? 30-40 year old _girls_? Did you meet them at a My Little Pony convention? Were they kneeling on the floor around plastic tea cups with no tea in them? Maybe it's a nit-picky thing to pay so much attention to semantics when so many other ridiculously sexist statements are being tossed around in that thread, but describing middle-aged women as girls really says a lot about a man's ability to view gender relations objectively.


Now that you point it out that is really creppy. I wonder if he is saying girls because he thinks all women are child like and he likes that sexually or if he is saying girls because he is trying to reduce their status as full grown women. Im going to go with the former.


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## TheWholeEnglish (Dec 17, 2011)

Oh, I think it's a combination of both. Those concepts are intertwine in our throw-back to gender rolls, post-feminist culture. Youth is fetishized because it signifies vulnerability. A lot of older _women_ in our time have status and self-respect because they have accomplished at least something that they feel provides their life with value apart from their physical appearance and ability to attract men. Younger women often attempt to gain status by conforming to traditional gender rolls by being pretty and obsequious in the presence of men. They haven't figured out how to be independent. Because of this, men desire women who retain the traits they associate with youthful women, mainly deference and insecurity. Men refer to older women as girls because one of the few traditionally masculine traits that men have to hang onto in a world where women work and demand respect for themselves is their stereotypical sexual dominance. As girls become women, they become less easy to dominate socially and are therefore a threat to the axiomatic overbearing sexual nature of men. The only people men like that can be attracted to on paper are girls.


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## freeeekyyy (Feb 16, 2010)

TheWholeEnglish said:


> Oh, I think it's a combination of both. Those concepts are intertwine in our throw-back to gender rolls, post-feminist culture. Youth is fetishized because it signifies vulnerability. A lot of older _women_ in our time have status and self-respect because they have accomplished at least something that they feel provides their life with value apart from their physical appearance and ability to attract men. Younger women often attempt to gain status by conforming to traditional gender rolls by being pretty and obsequious in the presence of men. They haven't figured out how to be independent. Because of this, men desire women who retain the traits they associate with youthful women, mainly deference and insecurity. Men refer to older women as girls because one of the few traditionally masculine traits that men have to hang onto in a world where women work and demand respect for themselves is their stereotypical sexual dominance. As girls become women, they become less easy to dominate socially and are therefore a threat to the axiomatic overbearing sexual nature of men. The only people men like that can be attracted to on paper are girls.


Don't put all men into the same box.


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## kristle (Oct 21, 2010)

Chipps said:


> Now that you point it out that is really creppy. I wonder if he is saying girls because he thinks all women are child like and he likes that sexually or if he is saying girls because he is trying to reduce their status as full grown women. Im going to go with the former.


If it has boobs and a vajaja it's a girl. If it has a penis it's a boy. Sometimes a spade is just a spade.


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## TheWholeEnglish (Dec 17, 2011)

Yes, you're completely right. I should have been more clear. When I refer to men in that paragraph/rant, I'm referring to the men in the forum we're all discussing. I really am grateful that there are some men (and I don't think those men are necessarily in the minority) who do not espouse such narrow minded views. Thank you for correcting me.


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## TheWholeEnglish (Dec 17, 2011)

I mean, not to be pedantic, but that's not true either. You can't confuse gender with sex. They are different. Sex is physical; gender is the performance of reified behaviors pertaining to a set of cultural values. Because of that, gender is an abstract concept. It isn't real or concrete like sex is. Gender is therefore, in large part, symbolic. The language we use to describe it is also abstract and symbolic. There are connotations that follow each word we use and so, you can't really say that there isn't a difference between the words woman and girl when used to refer to someone of the female sex who identifies with the traditional gender rolls and identity patters associated with that sex within western culture. There is a difference. Those words each have different meanings. They have different connotations. The choice of using one or the other has connotations as well.


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## quadrivium (Nov 6, 2011)

TheWholeEnglish said:


> Oh, I think it's a combination of both. Those concepts are intertwine in our throw-back to gender rolls, post-feminist culture. Youth is fetishized because it signifies vulnerability. A lot of older _women_ in our time have status and self-respect because they have accomplished at least something that they feel provides their life with value apart from their physical appearance and ability to attract men. Younger women often attempt to gain status by conforming to traditional gender rolls by being pretty and obsequious in the presence of men. They haven't figured out how to be independent. Because of this, men desire women who retain the traits they associate with youthful women, mainly deference and insecurity. Men refer to older women as girls because one of the few traditionally masculine traits that men have to hang onto in a world where women work and demand respect for themselves is their stereotypical sexual dominance. As girls become women, they become less easy to dominate socially and are therefore a threat to the axiomatic overbearing sexual nature of men. The only people men like that can be attracted to on paper are girls.


Let's not ignore that younger women are just more fertile and more capable of bearing healthy young. Not that women mid 30s+ aren't capable, they are. But really, women having babies later and later is because of progression in technology, society etc. 
I'm just saying there is a biological reason for youth to be fetishized, even if completely unconsciously done.


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## rbonk (Nov 20, 2011)

> All women are insecure, remember, they have a vagina.
> 
> I met recently the worst "independent and strong" woman from Germany.
> 
> ...


check this out for insecurity.

"Physically putting my hand in front of her face so she cannot talk to me." says it all.

such a pathetic way to deal with anyone.


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## Sonny (Oct 14, 2008)

They are boys, not men. It's all good and well for people to have their own individual preference in a partner but having an issue with a woman's assertiveness or perceived masculinity and inferring that there is something wrong with her as opposed to it being their own issue is lame.


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## Zerosum (Jul 17, 2011)

This is simply blokes that are very insecure.. I have never felt emasculated by a girl who has greater career achievements and has greater success, maybe jealous, but never emasculated! 

Who doesn't like an independent partner? I hate the thought of having a partner that has to constantly rely on me and is basically a slave.. I think to be sexually dominate (in a masculine sense) is not the same as being all controlling and imposing.


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## day_dreamer (Nov 8, 2010)

The more I read about such attitude towards women, I less I feel like being me for all practical purposes. I mean, being yourself is fine and I had been an open book until I realized people misread my demeanor. So, I've got to choose what I want. If I am looking for friends, I switch onto 'being me' and if I want the relation to be limited to work or formality, then I am 'what you want me to be'. The latter is more pleasant and effective. Though I always had anger issues with complete assholes or morons and that side tend to come out once in a while in volcanic eruptions (which makes people type me aggressive and annoying).


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## Impavida (Dec 29, 2011)

DeductiveReasoner said:


> Just wondering, did any of you NT ladies come across as "intimidating" during high school because of your nature? I have people who are scared of me and I've never even talked to these people in my life (this isn't something i'm necessarily proud of). It almost sounds like a similar scenario. Maybe these guys can't get out of their high-school days?


"Intimidating" is by far the word most often used by others when they describe me. "Ice Queen" and "Robotic" are the others that are high on the list. I don't talk much, I display very little emotion, when I do speak it's usually to add something of importance to the conversation/discussion. People have told me that they don't like to talk about anything other than superficial topics when I'm around because they know I will know more than them on any given subject and don't want to look stupid in front of others. Apparently I need to employ a little more tact when pointing out when people are wrong 



Jazzlee said:


> I'm too lazy to read through this entire thread, nor the other one. But I read the first post, and I do recognize myself in that.
> 
> The problem is, I think, not low self-esteem or insecurity. People tend to need to feel needed, especially in a relationship. Guys, especially, need to feel as if they "take care" of the girl. When the guy feels inferior, he'll subconsciously wonder, "How can _I_ contribute?"
> 
> But different guys have different views of how to "take care" of someone. Some people can't recognize that what we - so called "power chicks" - need is a leader, not a dictator or a knight in shining armor. And when they fail to see that, they also fail to see how they can possibly contribute.


The feeling needed bit is a big deal with some men. Another forum that I'm on is about 99% men, and there have been some interesting discussions regarding this. Some came out and asked why I even need a relationship with a man since I'm so indpendent. It was a real lightbulb moment for some of them to realize that I entered into relationships because I *wanted* to, rather than because I *needed* to. Some of the guys really got it, but others just couldn't get passed not feeling "needed."


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## Dashing (Sep 19, 2011)

Feminism is definitely not the way to go. I thought all the real misogynists died years ago. I respect free-thinking individuals no matter their sex.


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## Rainbow (Aug 30, 2010)

That link was a whole pile of stupidity that I care not for.


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## Taneka Hinton (Feb 12, 2012)

Chipps said:


> I've recently become obsessed with the Manosphere community. If you dont now what that its basically men who are tired of behaving too masculine. Apparently they feel that women dont care about men anymore and theyve had enough. Ive been on quite a few blogs and read alot of comments but I feel like this forum summed it up alot for me. The women they are talking about is what I will probably be when I enter the career field. Whats wrong with a women who is independent? What wrong with a woman who has her own money and is dressed nicely? Who has high self esteem? Who is confident? How is this a problem?
> 
> Do any of you ever have a problem with less confident people projecting their inferiority complex on to you?
> 
> ...


You know... I'm not sure I disagree with the men. I happen to be sterotyped as this kind of female. I figure it is too bad for the guys who are intimidated by me. I've met women who are way worse about weilding thier masculine traits than I am and I feel the same kind of pity and disappointment and I wonder what they went through to make them that way. I also think to myself "damn, I don't want to end up like that". 

I embrace both aspects of my personality and my sexuality. I really hate to be categorized by other people, prefering instead to put myself in the category of my choosing. I know for a fact that in the years and years before I became mentored in leadership through a business program I had very little desire to be under anyone's thumb, dreaming instead of being someone who lived off of the land and built my own shelter and didn't have to depend on anyone. I felt as though human kind was the only species on the face of the earth not living in tandem with nature, instead we tried to make nature be a slave. I also felt that real men were becoming more and more rare, because we are essentialy domesticating and urbanizing ourselves, so that few men actually ever even become psychologically initiated as hunters. If they hunted for food, then they wouldn't hunt for sport, and they certainly wouldn't demonstrate thier natural instincts as hunters by "bagging chicks". I think that if more men had that essential confidence of being able to survive in the wilderness they would all be more manly, and not feel compelled to hunt women. Let me know if you think I'm off on this. 

There are sixty and eighty year old men who have yet to make thier first kill. There are entire generations and pockets of populations in the U.S. made up of young men who will never know the joy of bringing home a fish for thier mother or wife to cook for them. Many people can't even tell you where thier food comes from, let alone get it themselves. 

As I grew I discovered that money is the only thing that will enable true survival in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. If I didn't have to go out into the working world and compete, I wouldn't. Women aren't just competing with men, but they are competeing with other women.

The truth is our society is masculating women. The women's movement, the media, our peers, as women we are constantly being bombarded with the message that the only way to succeed in life is to be like men. I'm really good at this, and am experiencing the difficulties that accompany being strong enough to be a leader, but having female anatomy. My boss just told me today that if I was a man he never would have hired me, and he is having extreme difficulty in dealing with me because he does not respect authority, and he feels that my leadership ability is a challenge to his authority, even though my leadership ability is the specific reason he brought me on in the first place. 

With that being said. I personally do not feel that my feminine nature is for every man. I don't want to flirt with strangers, and I'm really offended by men who assume that they are just going to dominate me and make me do whatever they say I should do. I have an extremely feminine tendancy that I don't put out to the world, because of the conditioning that many people accept, they interpret that femininity as weakness. The kindness, compassion, consideration of others, being trusting, demure all of those things are liabilities in a society comprised of a majority of people who are out to get you before you get them. 

If men are truly leaders then they need to take the lead, change the laws that govern how much money a man's effort is worth so that he can afford to work and let his wife stay home to raise children. If men are truly leaders then they need to change the way that they view women so that NO woman is ever victimized or used for sex because it is a fun game for guys to play. The truth is it is only fun for the man. Any woman who claims to love sleeping around and being permiscuous is lying. Every woman who does these things is only doing it because she hates men just as much as the men she sleeps with hates women. If men really loved women, then they wouldn't hit on them, they wouldn't sexualize and objectify them, they would honor, love and respect women. They wouldn't do the things that they do. 

If men really loved women then they wouldn't support advertising that objectified women, or support pornography. They wouldn't support bikini's and encourage women to feel bad about themselves so that they are easier to fuck. They would respect the leadership capabilities of women, and respect the intelligence of women. They would not instigate competition between women. They would not compete with other men to see who could get laid the most. They would not require and demand an unrealistic standard of beauty. They would not make targets out of women for sport. So as one gentlemen on that forum linked to in the post I am replying to says so adroitly. They are getting what they deserve. Because for as many mannish single thirty something women there are out there, there are just as many men screwing twenty year olds who wish with all of thier beings that they could find a grown, beautiful, mature women who understood them, who didn't take any shit, who fed them, helped them be better men, and who screwed them the way only a mature woman can. 

Men are the leaders in our society and in society they call the shots. The woman is the leader in the bedroom and in the house. She runs things and makes sure every one is getting thier needs met. Men think that they can run the house, and cross the line in terms of feminie authority and then can't figure out why women resent them and feel unappreciated. Women would respect men more if they didn't try to manage the home life. Any successfully married man will tell you that is a F-A-C-T. Just find one and ask him, he will tell you. I know everyone out there has met at least one man who has been married for fifteen or twenty years who lovingly refers to his wife as "the boss".
Is anyone asking these men why they are happy in thier marriages? Or is everyone just calling him pussywhipped? 

Somewhere along the line men decided that if a man truly loves a woman and treats her correctly then there must be something wrong with that man. Men have a deep need to be respected by other men, even if the other men are idiots. So what does a man have to do to be respected by idiots? Become a bigger idiot and then those idiots are impressed because that idiocy looks like masculinity to them, because all an idiot can aspire to is bafoonery. So your winner man turns himself into the king of fools, feels respected by other men, then men outside of that circle see how much respect the king is getting and start to act in the same way, and look where we are now a nation of bafoon emporers with no clothes trying to blame women for thier own stupidity. When really it is an overblown case of monkey see monkey do. Men have forced women into this situation. Because men are the leaders of socitey and society shapes the atmoshpere of communities, communities directly influence what goes on at the kitchen table, if anyone even uses kitchen tables any more. 

Men are no longer doing the behaviors that automatically demonstrate masculine caring because human beings are too technologically advanced and urbanized for that to happen. I might just be wierd, but in my view I would know for sure that my man was truly caring for me and our household if he drug home a dead bear, instead of bringing home money. Money is a poor substituion for true masculinity. This is being said by a woman who was raised by a man who hunted our food for the most part, as well as having several male role models who are classic examples of truly masculine men. They are kind, gentle men, who build things with thier hands, till the earth, are monogomous, good humored, god fearing, and a host of other things that the majority of men that I have met simply are not. Yes they have faults, but who doesn't?

Until men can get over trying to impress and compete with each other, then society will continue to churn out new updated versions of duches and duchettes.


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## LimeDegree (Mar 6, 2012)

My solution to bigots is to stay away from them. I try to work in an environment with as many different races, genders, and sexual preferences as possible. But then, growing up, most of my relatives were bigots, so I suppose I just got fed up sooner. I'm a white male, so I don't run into unfavorable treatment because of gender or race, but I can clearly see it happen to others. For me, finances aren't a priority, I'm mostly concerned with casual clothing, freedom of movement, and teamwork. The nature of bigots is, they all like to work together, so where there is one, there's usually at least a dozen others.

If you want to meet males who value women, I'd say they are most likely going to be the ones in the grocery store debating over spices, fruits, cheeses, etc. There's just something about providing a meal for a lady with your own effort that seems right, and cooking is the only rational replacement for trailing after a herd of elk. We have to do most of our hunting in fluorescent lighting to the tune of shallow music, but the hunters are still out there.


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## Taneka Hinton (Feb 12, 2012)

LimeDegree said:


> My solution to avoiding bigots is to stay away from them. I try to work in an environment with as many different races, genders, and sexual preferences as possible. But then, growing up, most of my relatives were bigots, so I suppose I just got fed up sooner. I'm a male, so I don't run into unfavorable treatment because of gender, but I can clearly see it happen to others. For me, finances aren't a priority, I'm mostly concerned with casual clothing, freedom of movement, and teamwork. The nature of bigots is, they all like to work together, so where there is one, there's usually at least a dozen others.
> 
> If you want to meet males who value women, I'd say they are most likely going to be the ones in the grocery store debating over spices, fruits, cheeses, etc. There's just something about providing a meal for a lady with your own effort that seems right, and cooking is the only rational replacement for trailing after a herd of elk. We have to do most of our hunting in fluorescent lighting to the tune of shallow music, but the hunters are still out there.


I appreciate your feedback and agree that yes, cooking a woman a meal is the most logical substitution for hunting. I think I will take that advice, I can always eat, especially if I don't have to cook, and it's even better if I don't have to do any dishes, or have sex in return. JOKING!!!!


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## day_dreamer (Nov 8, 2010)

For those who have read that topic where those dicks commented about 'strong women', here is another popular forum where a dick was taught his lesson by other men. Here is the link, just take a look and you will be glad that there still are some sane men out there -

A (hopefully) funny letter thing ~ To: Women From: A Complete Asshole Apparantly | The Hall of Bad Posts | Cracked.com Forums

If you can't see it, just let me know.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

@Taneka Hinton

What I really don't understand, is why it matters. If I am in the workplace, I don't see myself as masculine or feminine. I see myself as [insert job title]. Maybe its because I compartmentalize too well. People think that feminine and masculine are things that can only exist in certain parameters and I don't think it does. I don't understand the desire for other people to try and force or control other peoples behavior because it makes them uncomfortable. If a man like a certain kind of women, and wants her to be "feminine", then he should date/marry that kind of woman and not waste his time on women who don't match his ideal. To say that everyone women should behave in a manner that pleases him is fucking ridiculous. I don't understand why people believe the world revolve around them like that. 

I also don't understand how a woman with "masculine" qualities can harm any man. Each person is responsible for developing their own sense of self. A masculine woman doesn't strip away the masculinity of a man. If he feels he has been emasculated, then he has allowed it to happen to himself. It didn't happen because women did it to him. He did it to himself. We have a choice on how we see ourselves, and to give other people the power the make you feel bad about it is ridiculous. 

Though, I do think that women are being forced into adopting more masculine qualities. Most women naturally embody feminine ones. Most women are not aggressive, or assertive, or independent etc. I know I fit all those qualities (doing so comfortably). I dislike how feminism continues to control what women are doing. I think that liberation meant that women now have a choice in the matter. Instead of only being able to do a limited amount of jobs, they can now do the same as men. But that doesn't mean that every woman has to follow the same path. I don't see anything wrong with a woman _choosing_ traditional gender roles, or _choosing_ to be a stay at home mother or wife, or _choosing_ not to join the work force. But thats not what every women wants. I know its not what I want. I want the freedom to not have to do it. I get crap for my personality in the 21st century so if this was 60+ years ago, I would have never married and lived alone forever. I wouldn't have wanted to just be a house wife. It doesn't suit me. It suits a lot of women, but not all women. Gender roles cater to a large portion of the population, but it never catered to all of it. The fact that everyone can't be included, means that the shit had to be done away with. 

That being said, the system has been done away with. For people to not accept that really boggles my mind. Were never going to go back to the way things were. I certainly would fight against it. I think people need to get with the plan, and adapt accordingly. I don't understand what bringing up how things used to be could benefit how things are now. I think that men who don't like to be told what to do by a woman or are feel emasculated by a woman need to get over themselves. As long as there is a mutual respect between people, I don't understand why it is a problem. It seems to me that the real problem is that people no longer know how to govern themselves with out the constraints of a past society. 

Liberation of women, to me, doesn't mean that I need to go out having a ton of sex and "fighting the maaaaaannn". It doesn't mean that I need to become like men. I just naturally possess qualities associated with men rather than women. I don't think I should have to change that because it conflicts with some peoples idea of how people should be. I'm not hurting anyone. Neither is the traditionally masculine man, the traditionally feminine women, or anyone in between. I think people need to stop limiting their damn minds and open their eyes and take in the new world around them. I think people need to stop being so restricted and see people as individuals.


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## wiarumas (Aug 27, 2010)

Not reading the site (I get a 404) or any posts here:

I have no problem with independent or masculine women personality wise. I like a strong personality in a woman - because she has to have one to put up (and keep up) with me. My (ISTJ) wife is a strong woman and together we get a lot accomplished. She is a huge B**** and I slayed her - and she chopped me down a few pegs as well. In a way, we surrendered to each other and joined teams if that makes sense. And I rather have someone of substance standing *with *me than a traditional housewife or submissive woman standing behind me.


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