# Are Enneagram 4s intimidating??



## mrgreendots (May 21, 2011)

Last semester I had an enneagram 4 teacher for one of my classes and she was beloved by everyone, she was fun open minded, accepting and had great humor. She expressed that we were one of her favorite classes ever and all that but I never found the guts to speak in her class or go up to her to discuss something or ask a question. She even encouraged us and struck up conversations with other students but for some reason I felt very intimidated by her and could never manage to speak up.

Same with a 4 guy in one of my other classes although he was more of an understandable case. He was introverted and very opinionated. Didn't speak to many people and had a sort of punkish wayward look about him. Even after I found out he was very shy and careful with the people around him, I still found him very intimidating

I'm a 4 myself and while I don't feel threatening or anything I do get people occasionally telling me they're scared of me or whatever.

So I want to hear other people's opinions on this, are 4s actually intimidating or am I just scared of them?


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

mrgreendots said:


> Last semester I had an enneagram 4 teacher for one of my classes and she was beloved by everyone, she was fun open minded, accepting and had great humor. She expressed that we were one of her favorite classes ever and all that but I never found the guts to speak in her class or go up to her to discuss something or ask a question. She even encouraged us and struck up conversations with other students but for some reason I felt very intimidated by her and could never manage to speak up.
> 
> Same with a 4 guy in one of my other classes although he was more of an understandable case. He was introverted and very opinionated. Didn't speak to many people and had a sort of punkish wayward look about him. Even after I found out he was very shy and careful with the people around him, I still found him very intimidating
> 
> ...


My friend keeps saying I am -intense- -competent- and that I have a -strong personality- whatever that means , I assume the Fi but maybe it is the 4 as well and yes I would believe that. I think people get intimidated when you are selective, don't try to fit in and rather stand out and/or outspoken really.


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## Alana4297 (Oct 19, 2014)

I'd say some are some aren't. I wouldn't say it's a defining feature for most. I'm a 4, and sometimes I feel intimidating (rarely) other times I feel the complete opposite. My friend, who is a very intimidating, abrasive, and sometimes rude person is a four. When I found out she was a four I almost refused to acknoldoege it!!!!


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

Alana4297 said:


> I'd say some are some aren't. I wouldn't say it's a defining feature for most. I'm a 4, and sometimes I feel intimidating (rarely) other times I feel the complete opposite. My friend, who is a very intimidating, abrasive, and sometimes rude person is a four. When I found out she was a four I almost refused to acknoldoege it!!!!


well I don't feel I am intimidating at all, I am tough but I am very soft in the core. But I can see how some people feel about me, they see me rather strong especially because I put myself in situations not to ask for help and do things on my own, not to lean on anyone, I also find it difficult to trust people and some see me weak because I claim my emotions when they believe they should not let the world see it or because I am smiling wayy too much (apparently my friends in different layers see diferent personas as well, not that I try to be like that <.< ). Shrugs*


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## Flaming Bassoon (Feb 15, 2013)

There's an aura of intensity surrounding 4s that can be very off putting at first to some, especially those not as prone to introspection. Who would want to go that deeply inside themselves? Most people are scared of doing that so maybe 4s seem scary?

I dunno, just my two cents.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Social 4s: no
Self Preservation 4s: no
Sexual 4s: yes


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Instinct has nothing to do with it. I had a teacher in high school who was a 4. A real one. She was the scariest teacher I ever had.

She wasn't "mean" or harsh or anything. She just had some kind of commanding presence to her. She worked in theater, which may have had something to do it. Everything was always said deliberately, for maximum effect. She had all kinds of emotional power to her. I still remember her vividly in my mind.


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## Quang (Sep 4, 2014)

Out of the three type 4 subtypes, SX4 'project' their suffering in an unpredictable manner that even intimidates the other 4s. Their self-identification with being more shameless allows them to be more overtly self-expressive, competitive, arrogant because they believe that are 'being themselves' whereas SP4s' suffering is self-contained (counter-envy) and SO4 is more likely to self-adjust to what is acceptable for the social context (shame). There's more of a volatile and reactive SX6-8ish feeling in SX4. 

Therefore, SX 468s can be particularly intimidating because it is very likely they are counter-phobic, whereas a SO 469 is more likely to be phobic, self-doubting, and less "WHAT DID YOU SAY ABOUT ME?!" intimidating.


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## TurtleQueen (Nov 8, 2014)

I've had pleasant online interactions with people who have typed themselves as 4s on this forum. I try to avoid typing people in real life in case I start thinking of them as "4s" or any other type (including MBTI) instead of unique individuals. I've seen people who seem to do that with MBTI when I lurked on forums, and I hated how people blamed the conflict entirely on another person being this unfathomable and awful MBTI type. It seemed to indicate a lack of introspection or even enough honesty to admit that you just couldn't understand someone.

In real life, I'm not sure what 4 energy feels like to me. I would be a lot more intimidated by specific things a person said or did than the general vibe or energy level of a person. Some people can seem kind of tough or aggressive, but I try to avoid judging them for how they present themselves since they could also be very nice people in addition to seeming tough.


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## mirrorghost (Sep 18, 2012)

i think it probably depends on the person, but if a 4's intensity is more palpable, then maybe? i've been told i can be intimidating and also aloof. i've also been told i am intense (by someone who knows me well.) i think for me, they sort of go hand in hand. being reserved, some people just don't quite know what to do with that...and if there is some sense of the intensity underneath, i can kind of see where it comes from (if they don't know you well/don't know you at all.)


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Sx 4s can be powerful enough to put an 8 in their place!

My, you're the complete withdrawal triad! How shy are you?


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## mrgreendots (May 21, 2011)

tanstaafl28 said:


> My, you're the complete withdrawal triad! How shy are you?


Haha, yes I am. I'm very private and I do shy away from people because I just don't like socializing that much (I'm also SO last). I'm relatively confident though so I can gather the courage to interact with people if I need to. Overall what it does to me is make my reaction to anything "withdraw".


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

mrgreendots said:


> Haha, yes I am. I'm very private and I do shy away from people because I just don't like socializing that much (I'm also SO last). I'm relatively confident though so I can gather the courage to interact with people if I need to. Overall what it does to me is make my reaction to anything "withdraw".



I'm pretty much: "withdraw-CHARGE!-withdraw (584). Give me a cause worth fighting for, and I'll step up. Usually when I feel as though either myself, or others, are being bullied.


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## tresemme (Jun 21, 2014)

I think there's something about certain 4w5 and 5w4 that repulse others. Not neccesarily that they're disgusting. There's something cringe worthy and the vibe might be too depressing that pushes people away. There's something subconsciously telling others to keep distance and don't bother (avarice). Higher sx, especially with 4s, give the impression of seething hatred. Intimidating may or may not be the word for it.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

tresemme said:


> I think there's something about certain 4w5 and 5w4 that repulse others. Not neccesarily that they're disgusting. There's something cringe worthy and the vibe might be too depressing that pushes people away. There's something subconsciously telling others to keep distance and don't bother (avarice). Higher sx, especially with 4s, give the impression of seething hatred. Intimidating may or may not be the word for it.


A Sx 4 with an aggressive gut trifix (8 or 1) and/or 6/7 head fix, can be masterfully intimidating, sometimes to the point of going physical about it. The fully reactive sx4 (468) is a force to be reckoned with. 




> 4-6-8 - The Hot Head
> 
> This type is characterize by their reactivity. The tend to initiate conflict and take offense easily. They me feel that everyone is out to get them.
> 
> ...


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## sarahbelle68 (Mar 26, 2014)

mrgreendots said:


> Last semester I had an enneagram 4 teacher for one of my classes and she was beloved by everyone, she was fun open minded, accepting and had great humor. She expressed that we were one of her favorite classes ever and all that but I never found the guts to speak in her class or go up to her to discuss something or ask a question. She even encouraged us and struck up conversations with other students but for some reason I felt very intimidated by her and could never manage to speak up.
> 
> Same with a 4 guy in one of my other classes although he was more of an understandable case. He was introverted and very opinionated. Didn't speak to many people and had a sort of punkish wayward look about him. Even after I found out he was very shy and careful with the people around him, I still found him very intimidating
> 
> ...


kind of OT but are you a 4w5 9w8 5w4 (my tritype!) or do you have a 9w1 in the middle? what is your instinctual variant? i'm sp/sx. sorry, i am pretty excited when i come across another INFP 4w5 9 5

but to answer your question, i have been called intimidating... i think it's because i can be so intense and inward looking; people don't quite know what i'm thinking. i'm also called 'sweet' by strangers tho, so


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## sarahbelle68 (Mar 26, 2014)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> Social 4s: no
> Self Preservation 4s: no
> Sexual 4s: yes


idk i'm sp/sx and i've been called intimidating on occasion. i do get 'sweet' or 'forlorn' or 'what are you thinking??' a bit more though


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## sarahbelle68 (Mar 26, 2014)

tresemme said:


> I think there's something about certain 4w5 and 5w4 that repulse others. Not neccesarily that they're disgusting. There's something cringe worthy and the vibe might be too depressing that pushes people away. There's something subconsciously telling others to keep distance and don't bother (avarice). Higher sx, especially with 4s, give the impression of seething hatred. Intimidating may or may not be the word for it.


i think there's just something raw about us that can freak people out sometimes. like we can kind of be gaping wounds of people... there is something disruptive about our raw, inward, unsaid presences and creativity


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## mrgreendots (May 21, 2011)

sarahbelle68 said:


> kind of OT but are you a 4w5 9w8 5w4 (my tritype!) or do you have a 9w1 in the middle? what is your instinctual variant? i'm sp/sx. sorry, i am pretty excited when i come across another INFP 4w5 9 5
> 
> but to answer your question, i have been called intimidating... i think it's because i can be so intense and inward looking; people don't quite know what i'm thinking. i'm also called 'sweet' by strangers tho, so


Hey, I don't exactly know what the wings of my tritype are, I honestly thought that the the tri type doesn't have wings as in tritype 495 and enneagram 4w5. My instinctual variants are sp/sx.


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## mrgreendots (May 21, 2011)

tresemme said:


> I think there's something about certain 4w5 and 5w4 that repulse others. Not neccesarily that they're disgusting. There's something cringe worthy and the vibe might be too depressing that pushes people away. There's something subconsciously telling others to keep distance and don't bother (avarice). Higher sx, especially with 4s, give the impression of seething hatred. Intimidating may or may not be the word for it.


I didn't find them repulsive at all, neither did I find them depressing (although I'm also a 4) I think it's just that they're not willing to compromise their personality or opinions for the sake of a smoother interaction. If they disagree they'll just outright tell you. 
Granted I found them intimidating because one was an extrovert and the other was an INFJ, both of which radiate confidence even when they're not. I guess as an INFP I'd come off as threatening since I don't outwardly express emotion. 
Another reason I found them intimidating was the emotional barrier they put up. I guess it's always a way of withdrawal or defense from their environment but they both put on a quiet "don't mess with me" vibe. 
I've seen them both put their guard down when talking about emotional experiences and they both turned to marshmallows in my eyes. When they did that I found them very approachable.


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## sarahbelle68 (Mar 26, 2014)

mrgreendots said:


> Hey, I don't exactly know what the wings of my tritype are, I honestly thought that the the tri type doesn't have wings as in tritype 495 and enneagram 4w5. My instinctual variants are sp/sx.


well a tritype can have wings or not... i've mainly seen it as three types+wings in a row, one which most fits you and one that does but a little less, etc.

anyway, i'm so excited that i've found my twin INFP sp/sx with 4w5 9 5! 

most INFPs seem to have 5w4 in their tritype so i'd guess that that'd be your 5 + your middle 9 would either be 9w1 or 9w8.


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## tresemme (Jun 21, 2014)

mrgreendots said:


> Granted I found them intimidating because one was an extrovert and the other was an INFJ, both of which radiate confidence even when they're not. I guess as an INFP I'd come off as threatening since I don't outwardly express emotion.
> Another reason I found them intimidating was the emotional barrier they put up. I guess it's always a way of withdrawal or defense from their environment but they both put on a quiet "don't mess with me" vibe.
> I've seen them both put their guard down when talking about emotional experiences and they both turned to marshmallows in my eyes. When they did that I found them very approachable.


I used to be that way. It's probably what others have said: Has to do with high SX and aggressive gut fix, and I think wing 5 too. In my case, I wouldn't call it "don't mess with me" vibe. That sounds kinda counterphobic...perhaps when I was younger... I'm more phobic now, more aversion to being involved or obligated, more tired and worn down and don't want to deal with it.


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## tresemme (Jun 21, 2014)

sarahbelle68 said:


> i think there's just something raw about us that can freak people out sometimes. like we can kind of be gaping wounds of people... there is something disruptive about our raw, inward, unsaid presences and creativity


Yea, I was thinking those with more positive fixes may feel more repulsion from those with negative fixes (bottom of the enneagram).


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## pandamonium (Oct 21, 2013)

I don't think I'm intimidating, however I can be very brusque. Bad at small talk. Don't want to come across as "fake" in work settings; integrity seems more than playing the game. 

But I also come across to the discerning as being unbearably shy, and I hate that.  It feels like showing weakness; it also feels like I am not really the sweet person that they expect to exist beneath the quietness. In some ways, I almost am more comfortable with people distrusting me or disliking me than trying to take care of me or get closer.


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## ElephantsHead (Nov 22, 2013)

When I first saw the title of this thread, I almost laughed out loud, since I am the only 4 I know (as far as I know) and I really don't think of myself as intimidating. I do have a pretty strong 9-fix in my tritype, so that might be part of it. But then I thought about your question, and I realized that maybe the behaviors that make me less intimidating are actually there to minimize that effect on others. Does that make sense? For example, I know that I can tend to look really angry and serious in social situations, so I try to smile a lot and be as sweet as possible, so as not to scare people off. The effect is that people tend to think I'm shy and sweet and gentle, like an innocent flower or something. That bugs me, but not as much as it would if people were scared of me. (Though I do crave having a strong, memorable personality. Maybe that's what I'm missing.) A lot of my external personality is like that.

I am a pretty intense person, I feel and express everything strongly, joy, sadness, anger, even my lack of feeling is intense. When I'm both happy and socially comfortable (aka with close friends), I tend to be loud, expressive, laughing a lot and saying things that most people would never state so candidly. I can also be very stubborn in my negative emotions. It would surprise me if somebody told me that I was intimidating, but then again, it wouldn't.


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## ElliCat (May 4, 2014)

tresemme said:


> I think there's something about certain 4w5 and 5w4 that repulse others. Not neccesarily that they're disgusting. There's something cringe worthy and the vibe might be too depressing that pushes people away. There's something subconsciously telling others to keep distance and don't bother (avarice). Higher sx, especially with 4s, give the impression of seething hatred. Intimidating may or may not be the word for it.


Might explain the majority of my classmates' attitude towards me, especially in high school at the peak of my angst, hahaha. 

Pretty sure any of the other 4's I know well in real life are 9-fixed and I think they're incredibly sweet. I guess a couple might be considered weird by others, and I know for a fact that one is/was, but of course being Fi-dom 4w5's I immediately felt a sense of connection rather than anything negative. Another girl from school might be a 4w3 and there's something about her manner that is off-putting, but I don't know her well enough to be confident in typing her, so I won't say anything more than that.

I think I tend to either completely slip under the radar most of the time (to the point where sometimes I've wondered if I really am invisible), but when I don't, reactions to me tend towards one extreme or the other. Either I'm kind and warm and gentle, or I'm cold and distant. Either I'm ZOMG-THE-CUTEST-THING-LIKE-EVARRRRRR or I have a terrifying look in my eyes. And the people who think the former (because why would I pour my heart out to people who don't like me?) are blindsided by the idea that people might see me as the latter. I'd imagine it would go both ways.

I don't think I'm ever intimidating though, lol. More like they think I'm a doormat. People are shocked when they try to manipulate me and I don't budge. And even then I don't think I scare them because they just keep prodding.

Another thought, my boyfriend's most likely 784 sx/sp.... I've noticed, through his anecdotes and my own observations, that people tend to find him intimidating. Could be his height (he's a tall man) but I dunno, because he has the kindest-looking eyes I've ever seen. I actually was never scared of him - if anything, when we first met, I thought he might have been so nice as to be a bit boring - but, well, maybe a 4 _would_ think that!


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## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

Sexual 4w3s are the only ones who I think come across as intimidating in the stereotypical way, aggressively and self assuredly in a way that makes you feel every bit of their negativity and yet have it launched at you. Something about them is very 8-like and full of intensity, you can tell that they know the best way to chew you up and wear you down if you cross them in the wrong way. I've always liked that kind of vibrant self awareness and presence.

As for other Fours, I think that the main factor of intimidation is that their thought process is so internal and full of layers of depth that most people cannot access. I've been told that I'm scary in an unpredictable way, that I feel and know way more than I let out and most types are so focused on external validation and step-by-step transparent images that they cannot read the consistency through the lines, any actions that aren't out for anyone to weigh are something hard to digest. Especially since as a Fi-dom and a 4w5, I'm not overly interested in externating my thoughts processes and what drives me to anything but it's easy to catch the negative, self critical, darker vibes... I throw people off since I'm told I can come across as shallowly innocent or delicate yet my inner world is often disorienting to understand and swallow. My other fixes are equally as cold, if not more, and overall this is a very self conscious, shy, passive, introspective, discerning type and there's a certain distance I put between myself and others, unless I can feel comfortable enough to open up and bleed out emotion, there's a steel wall between me and the world. This annoys people, this confuses the small talkers, the inclusive strong Fe users and it's downright alien to some xNTPs although there's other ways to connect... quiet and detachment yet without the rational shell and confidence other types have. That can be puzzling, especially for those who stop at shallow depths and don't see the self-consistency among chaos and change.

Also Fours are emotionally intense, Fours see the darkest aspects in themselves yet try to the detect the good in others. There's shame in resentment, there's shame in contempt and envy so being able to properly understand is vital and being understood in return is a necessity... very few things can turn a Four off like being taken for granted, unheard, doubted in their transparent honesty and their values and essence ridiculed and disrespected. A lot of types, even Sexuals, cannot deal with that level of emotional masochism and downpours, with that level of self-reliance and often struggle between protecting my inner world and need to be seen and understood under every angle by someone who matters to me. There's rejection of rejection, annoyance at 'being fixed' and a strong need to be listened to without judgment, criticism is something strongly wanted but it's important to know that it might not be taken. Generally, being so wrapped up in my own world, emotions and wishes and oblivious to others and they way I match up to their standards is something that really unnerves people as being unable to 'really' get to me outwardly, mostly because I hurt my own self more than anyone possibly could, is something that frustrates people, whether their intentions were good or bad. Especially since I'm pretty much a doormat in their eyes and yet I'm resilient as hell.


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## ElliCat (May 4, 2014)

Hotaru said:


> As for other Fours, I think that the main factor of intimidation is that their thought process is so internal and full of layers of depth that most people cannot access. I've been told that I'm scary in an unpredictable way, that I feel and know way more than I let out and most types are so focused on external validation and step-by-step transparent images that they cannot read the consistency through the lines, any actions that aren't out for anyone to weigh are something hard to digest. Especially since as a Fi-dom and a 4w5, I'm not overly interested in externating my thoughts processes and what drives me to anything but it's easy to catch the negative, self critical, darker vibes...


Not to mention, if people need external validation and are used to forming and voicing judgements about others, they're going to wonder why you aren't playing along. The obvious answer would be that you're hiding something, and what would you be hiding but something negative... so naturally they're going to conclude that you're judging them in a negative way and maybe plotting something against them, when actually you might be just trying to decide what kind of tea you feel like getting on your next break.


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## Pantali (Jan 31, 2015)

I find the more unhealthy the four the more intimidating they can be but we're warm and welcoming most of the time. When we're in a good mood we're silly buggers and I don't think anybody would find us intimidating then, unless they get too weirded out by how daft we're being!


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## PurpleAmy (Oct 5, 2014)

Unfortunately, yes. I seem to do it quite unintentionally and I have to fight hard to keep it under wraps. My current guess for myself is 4w5/5w4/9w1 sx/so. I haven't put much thought into the tritype wings, and I'm still questioning the instinctual dominant.

Some specific traits come to mind:
4ish?:
- My beliefs are not rooted in any specific tradition or common belief system
- I very rarely depend on specific other people, nor do I depend on a sense of stability and security
- I accomplish things in unconventional ways
- I revel in my strangeness; I don't want to meet people in the middle that way
- I've had a lot of unusual experiences and I'm not afraid to let on about many of them

SXish?:
- I'm quite comfortable leading people outside their comfort zone, especially individually, by directly showing the force of my opinions
- And I'm eager to have them do the same (but most get too intimidated. :sad
- I can be very emotionally intense even when I don't mean to. The hesitance to push back is often obvious. :sad: I don't mean to scare people. (I've been known to practically beg for disagreement and resistance, and I am genuinely open to other's ideas, I love agreement and mutual understanding much more than being right.)
- I can be uncomfortably empathetic toward individuals; other people's strong emotions don't scare me they way they often do them
- It's extremely difficult to shock me. I'm more likely to be drawn closer by the attempt.
- I don't fear the things most people do. I tend to get a dangerous twinkle in my eye instead.
- My meaningful interactions are mostly 1:1, not in large groups (which might appear secretive to others, making them more anxious)
- Not even remotely afraid of things I've never done before; I can appear very confident at times

SOish (antisocial variant, I think)?:
- I'm quite aware of social dynamics, I like to read social situations and people, I'm very aware of games being played
- I strongly avoid participating in group social activities (so I'm something of an outsider)
- But when I'm trying to rally a group around some common deep seated belief, I know what to do and don't hesitate to get very socially active.
- Because of the intimidation factor, I think, most of my work social connections are significantly above me in the hierarchy or otherwise powerful, and I'm perfectly comfortable with that. Makes me more intimidating though, I suspect, but I need somebody to talk to! (I actually loath power and am extremely egalitarian in my ethics. I like disarming their conflicts, not creating drama.)
- I'm very agreeable yet virtually impossible to manipulate. I swear there have been conversations where someone tries to and just about reached up to rub their nose from meeting a brick wall they didn't expect.
- I make friends with a lot of different perspectives that may not get along very well - I don't become part of existing social circles

Generally throws people off and may contribute as a result:
- I cultivate silliness and playfulness
- I love to cooperate but am willing to burn you to the ground if you cross my values in a serious way

I don't think it's the individuality alone that scares people, it's the invulnerability that I can conjure, coupled with an ability to be very forceful and even charming when I want to. I'm intelligent enough to be intimidating via that too. :sad:

Under all that I'm extremely sensitive and timid as a church mouse. I can't bear hurting people. I withdraw a lot because I feel that I hurt or scare people accidentally. My only desires are to help and heal and connect with people. :crying: :sad: I'm hoping finding better outlets for the SX energy will help smooth this out somewhat.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Kipposhi said:


> Instinct has nothing to do with it.


rubbish, instinct has _everything_ to do with it. after 6, 4 is the type with the more diverse subtypes. 
- Social 4 is a withdrawn, shame-ridden, sensitive character with a perpetual ugly duckling complex (not very scary)
- Self Preservation 4 is sullen, martyr-y, "suffer in silence". 
- Sexual 4 is a more turbulent, vengeful personality. they generally hold an heir of spiteful indignation and are prone to intense, unpredictable tantrums. Naranjo even says that this 4 is the only type able to make the 8 back down (VERY scary!)



> I had a teacher in high school who was a 4. A real one. She was the scariest teacher I ever had.
> She wasn't "mean" or harsh or anything. She just had some kind of commanding presence to her. She worked in theater, which may have had something to do it. Everything was always said deliberately, for maximum effect. She had all kinds of emotional power to her. I still remember her vividly in my mind.


then your teacher was scary for non-type related reasons. they same would have been true had she been a 6, a 3, a 7, etc.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> rubbish, instinct has _everything_ to do with it. after 6, 4 is the type with the more diverse subtypes.
> - Social 4 is a withdrawn, shame-ridden, sensitive character with a perpetual ugly duckling complex (not very scary)
> - Self Preservation 4 is sullen, martyr-y, "suffer in silence".
> - Sexual 4 is a more turbulent, vengeful personality. they generally hold an heir of spiteful indignation and are prone to intense, unpredictable tantrums. Naranjo even says that this 4 is the only type able to make the 8 back down (VERY scary!)


And you know how much I disagree with reducing the enneagram in this way. There's plenty of human nuance in every individual, needless to say the core issues of the type remain the same, and are overarching. Yes, instincts *may* add an overlay to the personality, but thinking of people solely according to their instincts is not helping you here, either to understand the enneagram or understand your own type. So, I have to return the rubbish.



> then your teacher was scary for non-type related reasons. they same would have been true had she been a 6, a 3, a 7, etc.


The OP wanted to know if 4s can be scary, and for reference, yes they can. It's not like you've shot me down here.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Kipposhi said:


> And you know how much I disagree with reducing the enneagram in this way. There's plenty of human nuance in every individual, needless to say the core issues of the type remain the same, and are overarching. Yes, instincts *may* add an overlay to the personality, but thinking of people solely according to their instincts is not helping you here, either to understand the enneagram or understand your own type. So, I have to return the rubbish.


this is hardly a "nuanced" discussion. whether or not a type is "scary" is a fairly surface level question which can be answered via a more behavioral/archetypal approach. extending it to other types (for the sake of examlpe), it hardly requires a sophisticated analysis to say that Sexual 8w7s are scarier than Social 9w1s




> The OP wanted to know if 4s can be scary, and for reference, yes they can. It's not like you've shot me down here.


"shooting you down" wasn't the intention, but fair enough.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> this is hardly a "nuanced" discussion. whether or not a type is "scary" is a fairly surface level question which can be answered via a more behavioral/archetypal approach. extending it to other types (for the sake of examlpe), it hardly requires a sophisticated analysis to say that Sexual 8w7s are scarier than Social 9w1s


But it likewise hardly requires sophisticated analysis to infer that social 8w7s are scarier than sexual 9w1s. I mean I think core type matters more than instincts.

And. I don't think most types/instincts have a fixed meter for "scariness" archetypally, however, unless addressing how certain types (6, 8) use scariness as a defense, or alternately might wish NOT to scare people (2, phobic 6), as part of their defense. No source says much about 4s in this regard.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Kipposhi said:


> But it likewise hardly requires sophisticated analysis to infer that social 8w7s are scarier than sexual 9w1s. I mean I think core type matters more than instincts.


wasn't saying that core type had nothing to do with it (8s and cp6s are, of course, going to be scarier on average)
actually, now that we've both mentioned 9s, my brother is a great example of what I mean here. he is an ISTP 9w8 Sp/?? and, despite being a 9, he has a VERY imposing presence. like, the guy is probably smarter than me, but his energy comes off like a neanderthal. very sturdy, instinctual, full of latent anger. he is not overtly angry or even aware of his anger, but this only makes him more scary than someone like me. I am much more assertive and I make my boundaries very clear from the get go, so there are warning signs several miles down the road before anything actually gets serious. he is more unpredictable, and when he does get pushed over the edge, he can be extremely violent and, if push came to shove, he could beat the living piss out of my head center ass :tongue: . 



> And. I don't think most types/instincts have a fixed meter for "scariness" archetypally, however, unless addressing how certain types (6, 8) use scariness as a defense, or alternately might wish NOT to scare people (2, phobic 6), as part of their defense. *No source says much about 4s in this regard*.


well, Naranjo specifically says that Sexual 4 is the only type who can make the 8 back away, that sounds like a clear example of as source addressing the scariness of type 4 to me (at least, for Sexual 4s). 

sources aside, it's foolish to ignore common personality patterns which arise within various types. descriptions are not useful unless we can make at least _some_ inferences not explicitly listed in the text


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## Kyusaku (Mar 18, 2014)

I become very scary when pissed off, mostly because I am a rather quiet and warm person most of the time, the dramatic contrast adds a shocking factor to my outrage. I feel extremely lucid in those moments, but at the same time my hate becomes so intense that my mind is filled with visions of pure violence, I feel delighted at imagining strangling that person to death, or bashing its skull open. I don't feel like myself anymore, I drink those feelings and feel so empowered, I don't fear any consequences. I don't fight though, but my death stare is effective none the less.

That said I'm extremely hard to piss off, because that kind of reaction just squeezes all energy out of me. When I hear 4sx are supposed to be vengeful and shit I cringe, I forgive people rather easily actually, vengeance seems such a waste of time and energy. Same goes for violence, the intensity might be extreme in the moment, but I never forget that I'm not in a healthy state of mind and avoid taking such stupid decisions. If anything with SX4s, you'll have a big firework for a little while with little to no lasting consequences. Instead of keeping it inside, aggressiveness is kept outside.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> wasn't saying that core type had nothing to do with it (8s and cp6s are, of course, going to be scarier on average)
> actually, now that we've both mentioned 9s, my brother is a great example of what I mean here. he is an ISTP 9w8 Sp/?? and, despite being a 9, he has a VERY imposing presence. like, the guy is probably smarter than me, but his energy comes off like a neanderthal. very sturdy, instinctual, full of latent anger. he is not overtly angry or even aware of his anger, but this only makes him more scary than someone like me. I am much more assertive and I make my boundaries very clear from the get go, so there are warning signs several miles down the road before anything actually gets serious. he is more unpredictable, and when he does get pushed over the edge, he can be extremely violent and, if push came to shove, he could beat the living piss out of my head center ass :tongue: .


Not sure where we're going with the conversation at this point, but interesting story. 9s are not quite the milktoasts some descriptions would indicate, though a lot of them seem to think they are.



> well, Naranjo specifically says that Sexual 4 is the only type who can make the 8 back away, that sounds like a clear example of as source addressing the scariness of type 4 to me (at least, for Sexual 4s).


I don't think it was intended as an indication of scariness, and I don't think most 8s would allow something like that to get the better of them. I think it was probably more an allusion to the way 4s know how to hit on emotional vulnerabilities. They see through the shell to the wounded person beneath and know where to press. Hating to be pressed in that way, the 8 will have to back off.



> sources aside, it's foolish to ignore common personality patterns which arise within various types. descriptions are not useful unless we can make at least _some_ inferences not explicitly listed in the text


I'm not suggesting you ignore the patterns, but I think you should be open to the idea that it's not going to always be _that_ clear cut. (I tend to identify with social descriptions, but social-first is in very serious question right now...so go figure). Everyone has all the instincts, so each will be in play. Also, I think it's more important how _you_, the individual, relate to the patterns described by enneagram literature than whatever characteristics might be, or whatever it says [INSTINCT]*[TYPE] should be like.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Kipposhi said:


> Not sure where we're going with the conversation at this point, but interesting story. 9s are not quite the milktoasts some descriptions would indicate, though a lot of them seem to think they are.


my point is that subtype can make a _huge_ difference because many of the traits I listed are like nothing you would find in a generic 9 description




> I don't think it was intended as an indication of scariness, and I don't think most 8s would allow something like that to get the better of them.


your Ti is over thinking this severely. if you can make an 8 back away in a confrontation, you are scary.



> I think it was probably more an allusion to the way *2s (and sometimes 6s)* know how to hit on emotional vulnerabilities. They see through the shell to the wounded person beneath and know where to press. Hating to be pressed in that way, the 8 will have to back off


fixed. most 4s lack the social intelligence for this kind of behavior, at least doing it to the extent which would make an 8 cower before you. more importantly, that is not what he means. Naranjo describes the Sexual 4 as a feisty, *hateful* personality who projects their suffering onto others via seething indignation and fiery tantrums. 



> I'm not suggesting you ignore the patterns, but I think you should be open to the idea that it's not going to always be _that_ clear cut. (I tend to identify with social descriptions, but social-first is in very serious question right now...so go figure). Everyone has all the instincts, so each will be in play. Also, I think it's more important how _you_, the individual, relate to the patterns described by enneagram literature than whatever characteristics might be, or whatever it says [INSTINCT]*[TYPE] should be like.


it's all about a sense of proportion. no one is going to fit every single detail of a type description, but they should _generally_ relate to it, at least on some level. if someone comes to me saying "this description is terrible! I'm a Social 4, but I'm very assertive, always go after what I want, have high self esteem and have always felt accepted and appreciated", there are a few possibilities
1) they are not a Social 4 (most likely option)
2) life circumstances have forced them into acting a certain way which is completely unnatural for them (this is unlikely. in my experience, people are very bad at sustaining drastic personality changes and will bounce back to their old ways. if you have a deep bass voice and try to sing tenor, your body will tell you very quickly that that's a terrible idea. temperament works much the same way)
3) they have a severe lack of self awareness and/or are in denial

if a 4w5 So/Sp told me that they came off extremely intimidating to people, I would respond in just the same way


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## avidity (Mar 26, 2014)

Could someone compare the scariness of sx 4w3 vs sx 4w5? @Hotaru hit on some points earlier. Our lack of transparency, for instance. I wonder if there is anything more. 

People have said I'm hard to warm up to but that's been the extent of it. I'm mostly very mutually uninterested in the company of others, emphasis on mutually. It's really only been when I've felt blatantly disrespected that I reacted and "scared" people, I think. However, I feel like if my presence were truly intimidating, I wouldn't have been disrespected in the first place. 

My feeling is I probably just look tired and bored all the time. An effect of being sx-first and so-last perhaps. When you're bored, that offends people. They either punish or keep their distance from you for it. 

For the record, 4w3s of any instinct scare the shit out of me. When I think of an all out of war, for some reason I think of Joan Crawford (sx4w3?) and Bette Davis (sx8w9?) in "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?". Crawford clearly had something over on Davis, both IRL in Hollywood and that movie. She was just an imposing figure in general. But then I think of my stepsister and I. She's sx8w7 and could probably kill me with a stare. I'd stare back for awhile but then we'd both start crying or something, eventually. Unless she rallied a gang behind her, which she could very well do, being, I think, social second. Anyway, it's complicated. Wings, core type, instinct all seem to play a part in how intimidating a person can be. In my experience, I'm used to being underestimated or blatantly ignored by most people until I'm tested in some way. Which makes me think I have a neutral, unassuming, generally nonthreatening presence.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> my point is that subtype can make a _huge_ difference because many of the traits I listed are like nothing you would find in a generic 9 description


I think the influence of the wings also plays a role in the case you mentioned. Yes, they add very contradictory qualities to the overall personality.



> your Ti is over thinking this severely. if you can make an 8 back away in a confrontation, you are scary.


I think your Te is under-thinking it severely. 8s can back away from confrontations for a variety of reasons, some of which include self-interest, clearly overwhelming opposition, or the need to protect a vulnerability (hence where the 4 comes in). When it comes to direct confrontation, "fear" (in the sense of "of the opposition" which I assume you mean) is less likely to be a motivator because of a particular need to prevail and a consequent denial. I actually do know what I'm talking about on this front, and I'm going to put my foot down on it.



> fixed. most 4s lack the social intelligence for this kind of behavior, at least doing it to the extent which would make an 8 cower before you. more importantly, that is not what he means. Naranjo describes the Sexual 4 as a feisty, *hateful* personality who projects their suffering onto others via seething indignation and fiery tantrums.


No no. Not fixed at all. Just don't even try. Sixes find _mental_ vulnerabilities, weaknesses in an argument; Twos know how to use emotions (their own and others') to their own end.

Neither of these things is the same as seeing deeply into the inner-workings, frailties, short-comings, sadness, and vulnerabilities of one's own psyche, exploring them, and intuiting those of others. It has little to do with social intelligence. It has everything to do with emotional intelligence. And yes, I've seen 4s be as nasty with others' intuited insecurities as the most dedicated 2 or 6.

Also, the ability to do this is not mutually exclusive with the qualities listed under Naranjo's sx 4. Hateful does not equal scary.



> it's all about a sense of proportion. no one is going to fit every single detail of a type description, but they should _generally_ relate to it, at least on some level.


Again, no one's saying not to keep a sense of proportion, or to type as something you don't share any issues with. I, however, am suggesting to look at it on a deeper level and keep options open. That's quite different. Sometimes it doesn't always mean what you first thought it did when you discover how it applies to you.


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## mirrorghost (Sep 18, 2012)

Kipposhi said:


> Neither of these things is the same as seeing deeply into the inner-workings, frailties, short-comings, sadness, and vulnerabilities of one's own psyche, exploring them, and intuiting those of others. It has little to do with social intelligence. It has everything to do with emotional intelligence. And yes, I've seen 4s be as nasty with others' intuited insecurities as the most dedicated 2 or 6.


hit the nail on the head!


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

mirrorghost said:


> hit the nail on the head!


I like to think I understand 4s pretty well.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Kipposhi said:


> I like to think I understand 4s pretty well.


:shocked: don't ever say that you do!

 I mean, I guess...


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## PurpleAmy (Oct 5, 2014)

Kipposhi said:


> I like to think I understand 4s pretty well.





mimesis said:


> :shocked: don't ever say that you do!
> 
> I mean, I guess...


As if there's some conflict between seeing ourselves as ineffable and understood. Oh wait... :dry:

Why don't people line up to spend their lives trying to understand my enigmatic ways? Am I just that uninteresting? They probably have "better things to do." Grr.

Ahh, but that's something of an old feeling, because I've made some great connections lately, and I am feeling wanted. I revel in this. I fear how far I'd go to sustain it.

Anyway, it's an interesting topic, how intimidation relates to type. It seems some subtypes use intimidation as a defense, perhaps cp6 and some or all 8? 

But that's a different question than what types are perceived as intimidating to others, which might depend more on the pairing of types, as I think @Kipposhi was alluding to, or even skill in the actor + the observing type combination. For example, a 5 might be more intimidated by intellectual prowess, whereas a 7 might be more immune to it because it doesn't speak as strongly to their core. A 5 might be more likely to show said intellectual prowess, but that's also something of a stereotype.

I'm not sure there is such a thing as universal intimidation, that is, one thing that intimidates everyone or even almost everyone.

There are some attributes that seem to have broad effects, like sx dom being seen as intense or too much, but you put them with another like them and I don't see either party feeling that way. I suppose like instincts are consonant and comforting that way, whereas like types pose a bit of threat, because someone understands your fears, how to push your buttons, but matching both probably potentiates the effect.

On one hand, I do see a special kind of insight in the 4 that lends a certain power which could intimidate. I suspect other types have different insights, and different ways of feeling threatening to others, though some are more oblique, like 2 and 9. This makes some of that palpable intimidation factor lower, I suppose, but if you'd come to recognize and be hurt by one of those, you'd probably react very differently, especially if they naturally hit sensitive spots.


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## 1bestusername (Jan 29, 2017)

I know some 4's with 8 in their tritype they're usually 4w5's and they're either 468 or 486 usually and they are definitely intense. They're emotional and sensitive for sure but if they walk into a room you can feel that they're there.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

1bestusername said:


> I know some 4's with 8 in their tritype they're usually 4w5's and they're either 468 or 486 usually and they are definitely intense. They're emotional and sensitive for sure but if they walk into a room you can feel that they're there.


mew.

478 here. I can attest it is true that they say 4s are inside out 8s. Especially so with sx variant I suppose.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Not at all, lol. I find expansive, assertive, and optimistic types way more intimidating than intense and emotional ones, because those bright personalities know how to live life and live it large, while not obsessing over emotional details like I do. So I'm much more likely to be intimidated by the attitude of 7s, 9s, 8w7s, and the like because I feel they transcend overthinking in a way I don't (at least superficially).

4s on the other hand share a lot in common with me, so there's nothing scary about them  They're just on a different side of the mirror.


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

1bestusername said:


> I know some 4's with 8 in their tritype they're usually 4w5's and they're either 468 or 486 usually and they are definitely intense. They're emotional and sensitive for sure but if they walk into a room you can feel that they're there.


Most of them should be 4w3s, I would think...

My aunt is an ESFP 4w3 so/sx (468). It's interesting. She's one of those types you don't fuck with. At all. But the reactivity gets tiring after a while. I wouldn't call her intimidating, but I've always been hesitant to apply that label to people in the first place (IMO people are only sporadically intimidating, not constantly). She's a weird mix of everything, actually: open and closed, curious and indifferent, tolerant and traditionalistic...

Anyway, as a whole, no, I wouldn't say 4s are intimidating. Maybe that's just because I can relate to many, on some level.


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

I think it depends on the 4, whether they come across as "intimidating." Although it's probably true that all of them will feel like they are "too intense" for people.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

mrgreendots said:


> Last semester I had an enneagram 4 teacher for one of my classes and she was beloved by everyone, she was fun open minded, accepting and had great humor. She expressed that we were one of her favorite classes ever and all that but I never found the guts to speak in her class or go up to her to discuss something or ask a question. She even encouraged us and struck up conversations with other students but for some reason I felt very intimidated by her and could never manage to speak up.
> 
> Same with a 4 guy in one of my other classes although he was more of an understandable case. He was introverted and very opinionated. Didn't speak to many people and had a sort of punkish wayward look about him. Even after I found out he was very shy and careful with the people around him, I still found him very intimidating
> 
> ...


It can be intimidating to open up to people you look up to, especially if you think they might see through you, which Fours are good at doing. And as also Fours, we are not used to feeling understood despite craving it. 

Fours have strong personalities and it isn't really easy to know what to expect. I'm personally not very approachable even when I'm in a better mood, though there were blips of my life where strangers would constantly come up to talk to me or open up to me. I both liked it and hated it, of course, as nothing is ever simple. Anyway, these days, it's simply a byproduct of my disposition (and increasing difficulties with merging or mirroring people who don't already captivate me) that I'm not approachable but I would hardly consider myself intimidating. I actually spent a lot of my life trying to be smaller because I kind of like (and resent) being underestimated. It's complicated and gross and something I'm only recently learning to understand.

I don't know many Fours IRL but I definitely feel butterflies thinking of opening up to them when I come across them, compelled and nervous at once.


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## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

mrgreendots said:


> Last semester I had an enneagram 4 teacher for one of my classes and she was beloved by everyone, she was fun open minded, accepting and had great humor. She expressed that we were one of her favorite classes ever and all that but I never found the guts to speak in her class or go up to her to discuss something or ask a question. She even encouraged us and struck up conversations with other students but for some reason I felt very intimidated by her and could never manage to speak up.
> 
> Same with a 4 guy in one of my other classes although he was more of an understandable case. He was introverted and very opinionated. Didn't speak to many people and had a sort of punkish wayward look about him. Even after I found out he was very shy and careful with the people around him, I still found him very intimidating
> 
> ...


The emotional reactiveness of 4s is unparallelled and often strange. One has to be able to take a very neutral and slow approach to them. I am an enneatype 8 and I dated so many 4 women it's ... not even funny. I had to learn how to push without making it personal. Once the 4 get's used to the impersonal appraoch, letting THEM be personal, they open up. Once they open up they flood. But at any point if you turn the issue to personal (outside opinion of them, even yours) they bolt. It takes a very long time to get to the point where a 4 can discuss themselves with an outside source judging them in less than glowing terms casually (at least in my experience). 

The 4s also have an eye for emotional weaknesses in others. As an 8 I understand this expression, imbalancing the other, very well. But a lot of people fear getting serious with a 4 because of that tendency. ANY appraoch that is outside the regular lanes of action, ie, having a private chat with a teacher, is a glaring moment of emotional connection (every single one).

My second highest vector is also 4.


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## 1bestusername (Jan 29, 2017)

well i don't find 4w3's to have any intimidating quality at all more whimsical and wacky in my experience. the 4w5 seems more intense and can scare people who don't know them well. 5's are underestimated with their intensity people don't talk much about it but they aren't just ''some nerd'' like they're stereotyped. they're deep people and the 4w5 is the deepest type imo


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## welkin (Jan 25, 2017)

Well I was told I was "scaring the other kids" but that was _one time_ when I intentionally wanted to get kicked out :tongue:

Anyway, no


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

1bestusername said:


> well i don't find 4w3's to have any intimidating quality at all more whimsical and wacky in my experience. the 4w5 seems more intense and can scare people who don't know them well. 5's are underestimated with their intensity people don't talk much about it but they aren't just ''some nerd'' like they're stereotyped. they're deep people and the 4w5 is the deepest type imo


How would you describe "intensity" or "being intense"?


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## warxzawa (Aug 19, 2016)

not a 4 but i'm a 4 wing and a 548 tritype, and i've been told i can be a little intimidating and too opinionated (not reactive or agressive at all though), when i think about fours i don't think in someone too intimidating tbh, but when i think in a four wing is a little more intense. i agree with some people here that having a 8 in your tritype also affects. but still don't think 4s are the most intimidating type


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## Starflier (Feb 16, 2017)

I'm a 4 and I'm like the least intimidating person you'll ever meet. I'm like a fluffy little bunny. Unless you cross me.


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## Hellfire (Nov 30, 2015)

Nah not particularly. I don't find any of the heart types remotely intimidating in the slightest. 
I don't find any type intimidating in particular though. 

Then again I don't really get the concept of being intimidated by a person.


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## megmento (Jul 26, 2016)

Me? Intimidating? Ha-ha...ha. Not even close. Never had been in my entire life I was labeled like that. I was always the clumsy, self-deprecating 4 who dislikes being seen as that.


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