# Dictators and Fi



## Alpha64 (Apr 30, 2013)

It's already know that the majority of Dictators are xxTJ. But their behavior of wanting all the power to themselves and other stuff that they do, could that be Fi manifesting? Maybe they got strong Fi and cannot tolerate anyone defying them even when faced by facts, or could be also that they have weak Fi (that would explain their cruelty). So which one? Strong or weak Fi?


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

Alpha64 said:


> It's already know that the majority of Dictators are xxTJ. But their behavior of wanting all the power to themselves and other stuff that they do, could that be Fi manifesting? Maybe they got strong Fi and cannot tolerate anyone defying them even when faced by facts, or could be also that they have weak Fi (that would explain their cruelty). So which one? Strong or weak Fi?


Weak & valued Fi (2 dimensional) in TJs leads to black & white thinking in support of the higher functions.

Creative aka aux Fi (4 dimensional) is more flexible & relativistic. It is also easier to express.

Base aka dominant Fi (4 dimensional) is more rigid, but penetrating at the same time & less easy to express.


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

It's not "strong" Fi; it's very immature, or "primitive" Fi, in the background of consciousness, supporting their Te goals.


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

Alpha64 said:


> It's already know that the majority of Dictators are xxTJ.


Really? 

Famous INFJs - CelebrityTypes.com


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## Sporadic Aura (Sep 13, 2009)

I'm not sure I agree most dictators are xxTJ's.

I wonder if you could link dictators to Ni-types though. Ni making them have a very strong and uncompromising vision for the future.

Sorry for slightly derailing this.


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## Alpha64 (Apr 30, 2013)

So that makes most of them xNxJ.


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## Petyr Baelish (Aug 13, 2014)

Alpha64 said:


> So that makes most of them xNxJ.


I'm thinking about ESTJs and I think they could make dictators too, albeit, they may not be very effective in the long run. I don't think this has a lot to do with the MBTI, but rather, the Enneagram, and Type 8 would probably be the most driven to lead and control. The MBTI is great at figuring out how people think and behave, but it doesn't really tell us what their underlying motives are.

Sorry if I'm derailing the thread here.


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

Petyr Baelish said:


> I'm thinking about ESTJs and I think they could make dictators too, albeit, they may not be very effective in the long run. I don't think this has a lot to do with the MBTI, but rather, the Enneagram, and Type 8 would probably be the most driven to lead and control. The MBTI is great at figuring out how people think and behave, but it doesn't really tell us what their underlying motives are.
> 
> Sorry if I'm derailing the thread here.


I'm sure any type can be a dictator--and we've seen them in our lives--but when people think of "dictator", they are probably usually thinking of the big names--the hall of shame, so to speak, and for some reason, the truly infamous ones all seem to be INFJs. And if you think about it, it makes sense. Their strong Ni is able to grasp motivations, see and foresee how to impact people en masse, and their Fe--extroverted judging--knows how to appeal to people, and stir up emotions to the point that they act upon them. Put the two together, and you have a powerful tool for mass manipulation--and the irony is that the people actually are doing what they want, and are not just blind followers--but are fully cooperating. It's a scary thought that one person could do this, but we've seen it repeated many times, and while I know I can be wrong, but it sure seems to be the realm of the INFJ to do this. I suppose an ENFJ could, but I think their stronger Fe would act as a brake on going too far, whereas for the INFJ, their Fe serves their Ni...


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## Aelthwyn (Oct 27, 2010)

Alpha64 said:


> It's already know that the majority of Dictators are xxTJ. But their behavior of wanting all the power to themselves and other stuff that they do, could that be Fi manifesting? Maybe they got strong Fi and cannot tolerate anyone defying them even when faced by facts, or could be also that they have weak Fi (that would explain their cruelty). So which one? Strong or weak Fi?


I don't see Fi as wanting power, not external power. Fi wants autonomy, it wants self motivation and self determination. It's the Te that wants power to apply itself to others. Te likes external control, Fi likes internal control. 

I could be wrong, but in my personal observations it feels to me like Te/Fe seem more bothered by the simple fact of differing systems and react to the mention of these things, while Ti/Fi don't feel automatically threatened by the existence of other systems outside themselves as long as they can retain their own personal autonomy.* I think it is Te and Fe that seek to either apply a system externally or to comply to an external system (of values or practicality) either finding where they fit in something bigger than themselves or making people fit into a bigger system, while Fi and Ti seek refinement of their internal system not so much applying it to others. 

However, like @FreeBeer said strong Je can call in back up from weak Ji as an alternate or extra justification. I see this as Te having a practical plan and then justifying it when questioned by spouting a personal ideal/value. Te will believe something works and then tack on as a side note that it also serves a value. Fi will do the opposite where it wants or likes something and then calls in Te to justify this with some 'practical' angle. Fi feels something is right, but will tack on as a side note that practically speaking it also works. I'm not really sure whether Te will latch onto an Fi value and plough ahead with it, it seems more likely to plough ahead with a Te system and use Fi's insights into people's motivations and idealistic values as a practical tool for rallying people to join up or manipulating them into submission. Possibly one could say such actions are not 'weak or strong' Fi but _twisted _Fi? not sure...

An aspect of Fi that I think may sometimes be overlooked is that while it is about subjective feelings and values, it's not just about it's OWN, but rather it recognizes and respects the individual feelings and values in other people, and I believe this allows one to be empathetic because you have an understanding of someone else's perspective. At least for me with dominant Fi, I automatically pick up on the individual feelings of people around me and naturally identify with emotions that I too have experienced at various times so I can recall what it's like and feel with the other person, it's hard not to and I think I need to use Te sometimes to remind myself that practically speaking I can't save the world so letting myself be overwhelmed with feeling bad for all the suffering people out there isn't going to do any good. Thus I do think that weak Fi could lead to cruelty because the cruel person is not empathizing or connecting with the victims' feelings and point of view. As a mild example my INTJ friend seems unable to commiserate with someone who is distressed by something she isn't experiencing a problem with herself - like if someone moans about it being too hot, but she isn't too hot then she doesn't reply with sympathy, but if she is too hot then she will commiserate. 



* I say this because it seems like the INFPs and INTPs I know will hear someone's different taste or opinion and just be like, "oh okay cool whatever floats your boat though I don't agree with you." But if someone tries to tell them (or implies) that they aren't allowed to disagree THEN they react and become defiant. On the other hand, with people I think may be INFJ or INTJ (granting that I know a smaller confirmed sampling of these than of the NPs) my impression is that they tend to get bothered/offended/flustered when someone merely mentions something they disagree with even when there is no attempt to make others comply, it's like the mere existence or statement of a disagreement is registered as such an attempt - so they react or just don't want to hear it. They seem to have a harder time agreeing to disagree.


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## Alpha64 (Apr 30, 2013)

Aelthwyn said:


> An aspect of Fi that I think may sometimes be overlooked is that while it is about subjective feelings and values, it's not just about it's OWN, but rather it recognizes and respects the individual feelings and values in other people, and I believe this allows one to be empathetic because you have an understanding of someone else's perspective. At least for me with dominant Fi, I automatically pick up on the individual feelings of people around me and naturally identify with emotions that I too have experienced at various times so I can recall what it's like and feel with the other person, it's hard not to and I think I need to use Te sometimes to remind myself that practically speaking I can't save the world so letting myself be overwhelmed with feeling bad for all the suffering people out there isn't going to do any good. Thus I do think that weak Fi could lead to cruelty because the cruel person is not empathizing or connecting with the victims' feelings and point of view. As a mild example my INTJ friend seems unable to commiserate with someone who is distressed by something she isn't experiencing a problem with herself - like if someone moans about it being too hot, but she isn't too hot then she doesn't reply with sympathy, but if she is too hot then she will commiserate.


For me it seems the opposite. I don't have this empathy. For example when i see somebody complaining and/or angry i don't considerate why the person have that mood, i think "maybe if this dumbass stopped complaining and actually did something to change the situation his life would be better". Since i'm a 5w4, i assume that this is due to strong Te.


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

Alpha64 said:


> For me it seems the opposite. I don't have this empathy. For example when i see somebody complaining and/or angry i don't considerate why the person have that mood, i think "maybe if this dumbass stopped complaining and actually did something to change the situation his life would be better". Since i'm a 5w4, i assume that this is due to strong Te.


Actually, it's due to inferior Te, not strong Te. What you are experiencing is your Te eclipsing your Fi, so you are not empathizing. In other words, it is not the best situation to find yourself in...

As an unrelated aside, your post says you are quoting me, but I didn't say [email protected] did in the post right under mine. I don't know how the wrong attribution got there--maybe you started to quote both of us, and deleted my post and her attribution? In any case, I certainly would be happy if you could edit your post to remove the wrong attribution.


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

ferroequinologist said:


> I'm sure any type can be a dictator--and we've seen them in our lives--but when people think of "dictator", they are probably usually thinking of the big names--the hall of shame, so to speak, and for some reason, the truly infamous ones all seem to be INFJs. And if you think about it, it makes sense. Their strong Ni is able to grasp motivations, see and foresee how to impact people en masse, and their Fe--extroverted judging--knows how to appeal to people, and stir up emotions to the point that they act upon them. Put the two together, and you have a powerful tool for mass manipulation--and the irony is that the people actually are doing what they want, and are not just blind followers--but are fully cooperating. It's a scary thought that one person could do this, but we've seen it repeated many times, and while I know I can be wrong, but it sure seems to be the realm of the INFJ to do this. I suppose an ENFJ could, but I think their stronger Fe would act as a brake on going too far, whereas for the INFJ, their Fe serves their Ni...


One thing I think is overlooked, is that Te in such a case will mimick Fe, and Fi's personal identification with others can give them the sense of what people want, and thus how to appeal to them (thus working right along with Ni as you described). Where Fe introjects the values of others as one's own, Fi will infer what they "need" from within, but in a very sick form like that, Te will them mimick the introjection of values, but what they're really doing is _objectifying_ the people (turning them into objects, greatly suggesting we have gone from the "personal"-focused Feeling Judgments, to impersonal Thinking), and then manipulating them for maximum political efficiency.


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## Alpha64 (Apr 30, 2013)

ferroequinologist said:


> Actually, it's due to inferior Te, not strong Te. What you are experiencing is your Te eclipsing your Fi, so you are not empathizing. In other words, it is not the best situation to find yourself in...
> 
> As an unrelated aside, your post says you are quoting me, but I didn't say [email protected] did in the post right under mine. I don't know how the wrong attribution got there--maybe you started to quote both of us, and deleted my post and her attribution? In any case, I certainly would be happy if you could edit your post to remove the wrong attribution.


Fixed now.


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## FakeLefty (Aug 19, 2013)

Like others have said, any type can be a dictator. Hitler was an INFJ, Stalin was ENTJ, Kim Jong Un is an ESTJ, Kim Jong Il was an IxTJ, one website also stated that Fidel Castro is an ENFP and Idi Amin was an ESFP.


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## Alpha64 (Apr 30, 2013)

FakeLefty said:


> Like others have said, any type can be a dictator. Hitler was an INFJ, Stalin was ENTJ, Kim Jong Un is an ESTJ, Kim Jong Il was an IxTJ, one website also stated that Fidel Castro is an ENFP and Idi Amin was an ESFP.


Actually Stalin was a ISTJ. His inability to predict Germany invasion in 1941 was what caused the terrible performance of the Red Army early in the war. They only started gaining the upper hand after he decided to leave the planning to his generals (unlike Hitler).


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## FakeLefty (Aug 19, 2013)

Alpha64 said:


> Actually Stalin was a ISTJ. His inability to predict Germany invasion in 1941 was what caused the terrible performance of the Red Army early in the war. They only started gaining the upper hand after he decided to leave the planning to his generals (unlike Hitler).


Still, the way Stalin grabbed absolute power of the Soviet Union in the first place is by the cunning manipulation of the political system to work his way to the top and obtain total power- there was a lot of strategy behind his climb to the top. Sure, he had his shortcomings in WWII, but he was still very capable of strategy.


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## Dedication (Jun 11, 2013)

First you say:



Alpha64 said:


> It's already know that the majority of Dictators are xxTJ.


Then you say:



Alpha64 said:


> Actually Stalin was a ISTJ.


*Alpha64*, it is clear that you don't know what you're talking about.


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

Alpha64 said:


> Actually Stalin was a ISTJ. His inability to predict Germany invasion in 1941 was what caused the terrible performance of the Red Army early in the war. They only started gaining the upper hand after he decided to leave the planning to his generals (unlike Hitler).


Dunno, but I've seen Staling typed as ISTP, and that problem could be related to having really unvalued Ne (in socionics that's known as Point of Least Resistance), and also weak Ni.


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## Alpha64 (Apr 30, 2013)

Dedication said:


> Alpha64, it is clear that you don't know what you're talking about.


As you quoted me i said:


Alpha64 said:


> It's already know that the majority of dictators are xxTJ


And then i said:


Alpha64 said:


> Actually Stalin was a ISTJ


And so what? My opinion still is true based on these two quotes.
It's clear that YOU are the one that don't know what you're talking about.


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## HFGE (Jul 19, 2014)

Blue Flare said:


> Dunno, but I've seen Staling typed as ISTP, and that problem could be related to having really unvalued Ne (in socionics that's known as Point of Least Resistance), and also weak Ni.


In Socionics, Stalin is an SLI not LSI. So MBTI ISTJ and Kiersey ISTP are both correct typings for him.

As for dictators... I think dictators would tend to be judgers moreso than perceivers. At least when it comes to authoritarian forms of dictatorship. I think military juntas should also be considered a form of dictatorship, which often isn't the case.


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## Pancreatic Pandora (Aug 16, 2013)

HFGE said:


> In Socionics, Stalin is an SLI not LSI. So MBTI ISTJ and Kiersey ISTP are both correct typings for him.
> 
> As for dictators... I think dictators of the world would tend to be judgers moreso than perceivers.


Really? I think I've seen LSI as a common typing for Stalin.

Actually, I am right. It's here: User:Rick DeLong/Famous People - Wikisocion

I don't think this means LSI has to be the correct typing but it shows that people in the socionics community may disagree with the SLI typing.
And Hitler is typed as EIE (ENFJ), which is only slightly different to MBTI's INFJ. I have no opinion on either of those typings though.


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## HFGE (Jul 19, 2014)

Pancreatic Pandora said:


> Really? I think I've seen LSI as a common typing for Stalin.
> 
> Actually, I am right. It's here: User:Rick DeLong/Famous People - Wikisocion
> 
> ...


Then that's at odds with his original typing because most Russian Socionists I've seen typed him as SLI not LSI.

Anyway, the reasoning for his SLI typing was his relationship with Hitler which was terrible but mutually beneficial. If they were duals, they likely would have created an agreement that they could both agree on. Or at least not cause anger between the two which eventually led to Germany going to war with Russia because of the mutual distaste for one another. 

Plus Stalin's method of intimidation was more Si-Ne than Se-Ni. Subversiveness vs forcefulness is the main theme I'm drawing from.


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## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

In Socionics I, actually, also saw predominantly LSI as typing for Stalin, and him being described as a clear example of LSI. Couldn't remember any SLI for him... 

He didn't took opinions of other people high, disliked advises and thought he's the only one who is right. Remembering level of repression during his regime and how he physically exterminated dissent intellectuals who had different opinions I have a hard time seeing Si - Ne in there. There's a lot of focus on power structure, force, desire to mold the world around and make it cave in to him. He's clearly Beta.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

Eric B said:


> It's not "strong" Fi; it's very immature, or "primitive" Fi, in the background of consciousness, supporting their Te goals.


thankyou.


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## Zee Bee (Aug 19, 2014)

Fi who try to be "directives" usually do a sloppy job. Then they have to decide to back down ... or take it to the next disfunctional level


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## Ghostsoul (May 10, 2014)

About the Stalin argument: Can we even type Stalin? He was so insane it would be hard to do it correctly.

I believe that there has been quite a few ESFP dictators, if there are ESFP dictators who's to say there haven't been ISFP dictators?
(Possibly ESI with an Se sub-type).


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