# Fi in INTJ vs Fe in INTP



## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

I've been trying to work out the _real_ difference between INTJ and INTP and from reading many descriptions, I am unable to find a clear, fool-proof way to draw a line. I am still unsure of my type, and despite the cognitive functions being different, the combination of them and their outwardly observed behavior don't seem different enough to be noticeable. I have read through both of these:

http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/types/ILI-INTp/
Socionics Types: LII-INTj

This is the best I've come across but still not making the _difference_ any clearer. So the last thing I can think of to try to find out is how the two types express and experience emotions. I have used the fact that Fi is tertiary in INTJs and Fe is inferior in INTPs along with the generalization that Fe is more concerned with social welfare and Fi is more deeply felt internally (terrible misconception I know, but can't think of it any other way) that I must be INTJ because I have "genuine" feelings.

So my question is: do INTJs and INTPs differ significantly in their emotions? Or are they similar (as they are in pretty much all other aspects)? Alternatively, if anyone knows a non-ambiguous way to tell the difference between INTP and INTJ, post away! Every single suggestion I've come across has never left me with a decisive answer. E.g. "INTJs are organised, INTPs are more laid back" - well, it's not like one can't be both to some degree!


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

Look up Fi vs Fe.
INTPs main problem is with Fe, their stress results in emotional outbursts and they are frequently plagued by emotional discomfort and low competence in dealing with the feelings of other people.
INTJs main problem is with Se, their stress results in disorganization, a sense of overindulgence in sensory pleasure, binge eating, intense focus on details without any progress. 
INTPs are not as self assured as INTJs. They are uncertain, they often have difficulty making simple value judgments or seeing their worth. They may be uncomfortable or disgusted by the concept of "selling oneself". INTPs tend to be poorly aware of the feelings of others and perhaps attempt to disregard their own as well because they are indeed useless 
INTJs are more independent in terms of feeling. They can control their Fi, if they are well developed they wil see value in it. It is the source of their ethics, unlike INTPs who either derive their ethics from logical category or decide that morals are nonexistent and meaningless opinions that cannot be proven true. INTJs do not believe in false-modesty. If they are good at something and they'll let you know. If they have a job interview, they are ready to prove themselves. INTPs see no point in this, it is not indicative of the humbling Fe. 
INTPs value thinking over feeling, as a rule and INTJs value intuition over sensing as a rule.


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## originalsin (Sep 4, 2014)

"their stress results in disorganization, a sense of overindulgence in sensory pleasure, binge eating, intense focus on details without any progress." That makes me sound like an INTJ. 


To the OP, see if this fits you. How Fi Acts in all 4 Positions | Funky MBTI Fiction


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

http://personalitycafe.com/intp-articles/76783-recognizing-inferior-function-intp.html


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## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

Hmm, that's an intriguing way of looking at the difference. I am more certain of being INTJ because I have ZERO Se sometimes and I definitely value intuition. I don't dwell on thinking vs feeling much, whereas my (suspected) ISTP father is quick to flag up an argument or behaviour based on emotions. I tend to look at the point being made and assess its validity regardless of its logical/emotional influence


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> Hmm, that's an intriguing way of looking at the difference. I am more certain of being INTJ because I have ZERO Se sometimes and I definitely value intuition. I don't dwell on thinking vs feeling much, whereas my (suspected) ISTP father is quick to flag up an argument or behaviour based on emotions. I tend to look at the point being made and assess its validity regardless of its logical/emotional influence


I wrote an unusually long post about how I understood INTPs and INTJs to take in information differently if you want to read it. Disclaimer because none of it can be grounded as "fact" it's just my interpretation.


> This is another way I see it.
> INTJs are more scientific in their approach hence their title. They are much more empirical than INTPs in their style (now there are INTP scientists and some like Richard Dawkins do highly value the method, but his reasoning is more deductive when and dispassionate, moving on the INTP mascot Albert Einstein was a great example of this though. He was a scientist but he really had his own projects, his own thoughts and he did not favor inductive reasoning himself and INTPs also can be more inclined to physics where you don't have to get up and study things to figure out the math, anyway another example, INTJs probably wouldn't go off on a tangent like that). INTJs are Ni doms meaning they are more flexible in a way but internally. With Te, they believe in the latest evidence. Science has changed its conclusions based upon new evidence and that's why there is the physical Te advancement that we see. Yet each conclusion is held with certainty at any point as it is held up with evidence. When evidence changes and the INTJ is successfully convinced they have no qualms with changing their mind. They are more "up-to-date" in a way, they will say "oh look new evidence, that's right this makes more sense I shall accept this theory but continue searching for more evidence" as their primary goal is to perceive they will always be looking for more information despite their tentative conclusions.
> INTPs are more philosophical, they rely more deductive, structural logic. Their style is compared more to rationalism. An INTP is much more likely to distrust sensory data, they will cast doubt on anything if that helps them. For example you may be looking at a rock "but what if you are hallucinating and it's really a squirrel?" (To an INTJ that's irrelevant, to them if the evidence doesn't back it up then it's ridiculous. So how would you prove that you are hallucinating and not really seeing a rock, well as far as I know you can't really prove that so to the INTJ that thought may not be worth considering. But I will give them the benefit of the doubt and say they may believe their perception of the world is subjective just as much as INTPs but they still "live in it" I guess you would have to ask one.) To the INTP who does not rely on sensory information or "evidence" as much this is a perfectly valid conclusion. It could very well be a duck, you never know. This is the divide between INTPs and INTJs. As Perceiving dominants, the INTJs will be satisfied with the evidence (which is a really a pointer toward "probability of truth, more evidence means more confidence) so the INTJ is fine with this "incompleteness". You see the INTJ as the Te confidence (this is the most reasonable conclusion on latest evidence) but you don't always acknowledge that evidence changes so technically the INTJ is only dead-set on that until new information comes in and they are mostly interested in that new information as Ni dominant types. The INTP however wants a firm answer but here's the catch just like the INTJ this is the opposite of what you see. The INTJ has that firm belief according to latest info, you see the firm Te belief. INTPs however cast doubt using Ne. This is what you see as in the example the INTP will ask "what if this is not as it seems?" What you are seeing is the doubt, the asking for more information here. You believe that you are seeing a P type because the Ne is shown in that example. However you may also wonder why are they asking? Why not be settled that it is not a reasonable inference to say yes as far as I can see this appears to be a rock fine done let's move on? The reason is because INTPs are Ti dominants and they will not accept something shady and wishy washy in this way. They don't want tentative conclusions based on empirical evidence. They want the reasons and the firm deductive conclusions, they will not rely on this "inference" and say it is conclusive enough for me. Thing I noticed with Ti/Ne vs Ni/Te is Ni/Te is more concerned with probability and it's more convergent, closing in on conclusions more quickly. But the thing about those conclusions is they "probably true" in the science that scientific conclusions are "probably true and trustworthy" (I do not mean that as an insult to these thinkers). Ti/Ne sees things more in terms of possibilities, I sometimes ask "what makes this more probable than another hmm? Considering all of these things how could you possibly be so certain with that one?" So as you can see there's that first impression "yeah perceiver doubting everything that guy". But the reason is that is Ti is not satisfied with "probably". It wants "true or false" ultimately. So anything that suggests "this is probable" will be thrown back into the pool of ideas until something comes out and says "this is certain". Your first reaction may be "but nothing is certain" this to me is one of the reasons why INTPs have such "depressing nihilistic lives" they never find their place or their conclusions so fast. The truth is, unlike ENTPs who will just go "what if what if what if what if what if" on and on just to obtain more information (similar to an INTJ who is primarily out to perceive) the INTP isn't into that lifestyle no sir. INTP loves and hates his Ne. It's more information but it seems that they can never get a firm conclusion, unlike maybe the happy go lucky ENTPs, INTPs really do want the big answer and complete their personal worldview but it needs to be logical and certain to them. Personality Junkie is one interesting site and it points out the INTP may never reach these conclusions until it finally evolves it's inferior Fe to get the meaning out of things and stop being nihilistic and what not. Another thing to note related to this is INTPs are not "up-to-date" in the same fashion as INTJs. They do not follow the Te conclusions, they are more self-inclined thinkers. A wonderful example is found with our favorite INTP figure Albert Einstein, Albert Einstein personally reached his Theory of General Relativity through his thinking and deductions alone (I'm sure some other people may have been involved at different points, another difference an INTJ probably wouldn't feel the need to point that out because they may not have that same desire for accuracy there are always better examples however) so this was his view of the universe and that's what he worked with. Meanwhile other scientists where finding evidence to support their ideas about Quantum Mechanics and that was really the new thing. Einstein however was still on board with his personal views and said things such as "God doesn't play with dice" (may point toward Ti believing in a less random universe in itself but really a different point) so in this sense he was not "up-to-date". One may get the sense that Ti thinking such as philosophy doesn't advance or change anything in the real world. The Einstein example was similar in that he had his theory and that was it he stuck to it. Te users don't like this, they want to bring about changes in the real world. They want to see advances. That's why people tend to see science as more productive than philosophy at answering life's big questions. With Te you may see a man go to the moon. People like to see that physical advancement. Ti on the other hand is not the same in this respect. Ti is reflective, it will ask more core technical questions like "what principles does this operate on?" Ti doesn't invoke real world change, it takes things in and judges. In the same example, a Te accomplishment may be flying to the moon. The INTP may not necessarily be interested in what was done, so much as how it was done. In other words, how was the spaceship built, what principles was it built on. (A conceptual example would be more appropriate because of INTPs being N types but I think this will give the idea anyway). Another analogy is the computer. INTJs may be more interested in the software "realizing what you could do using the computer" the INTP may be more interested in the hardware "what is the computer made of?" The INTP may be less concerned with what it may actually be able to do because of Ti not being outwardly oriented, Ne is oriented that direction. Ne will say, "we can make this program or what about this or that blah blah" (this is more suitable for ENTPs who are called "The Inventors". They like the INTJs will be perceivers and be interested in the software, what can the computer do and seeing that. Though it will be in a different sense because of the differences between the two functions. INTJs may want to make one big giant enterprising program to sponsor a Te conclusion in a sense like using the program to print files for business and the ENTP may be more interested in making multiple smaller programs just to test and gain information about what the system could do, in a sense learning about the computer itself to fulfill Ti desires indirectly, unlike INTPs who may outright seek the hardware first then consider a few possibilities here and there but it's really about the hardware for them the information gathering second.)
> There are of course differences in the final two functions between the two types. One is that INTPs are tertiary Si and INTJs are inferior Se. INTJs are more focused on their intuition than INTPs are and as a result their sensing function is last in line. This means they are more focused on their thoughts and may lose sight of "reality" (we shall call it) based on their senses. This means their theories may not measure up in reality because they missed or overlooked details which sensing functions are often associated with. INTPs have tertiary Si which I find to be hardly discussed. Si is more of conservative function and it hangs onto concrete internal experiences. Having Ne on top of it INTPs are less detail oriented in practice, they tend to be less observant and absent-minded. They are also somewhat more restricted in a way, Si is a perceiving function but it is also convergent in a similar way to Ni. It points toward endpoints in a sense. So INTPs may ask "is it necessary to perform this action more than once after I already learned it or why would I buy the more expensive new shoes my old ones are working fine?" It inhibits the INTP from attempting to go out and experience newer things in a physical sense. They grow more attached to what they are used to and get comfortable with older experiences and objects than they seek to search out new toys to play with. They are also very utilitarian and unlikely to buy flashy items that have no practical use. Which does lead us to INTJs having tertiary Fi and INTPs having inferior Fe. INTPs are very much self-discovery kind of people as with all introverts but it's more about discovering their logical view of how everything fits together and is connected, to the INTP if science may have benefitted from one of their ideas "great, fantastic that has nothing to do with them." They are really seeking for answers in their heads, they don't care about how well science is doing or anything in a way Te does. The reason I say this is because Fi is also associated with self-discovery. INTJs are willing a to reach conclusions about themselves (referring to introverted judgement) through Te acts. Unlike the INTP who is usually contented with Ti alone with no Fe interference, INTJs have Te over Fi. I'm not the master of Fi but I will give it a go anyway. INTJs may improve themselves through making Te judgements. Perhaps by becoming the top physicist they have reach their big vision for the world provided by Ni and they have enhanced their own being. But let's not forget Fi is really all about moral and ethical judgements. Fi is really about trying true to yourself. If everyone is pressuring an INTJ to go against his own will it will not budge, the INTJ decides what's good for the INTJ not anyone else. Similarly the INTP thoughts will not be influenced by external evidence or authority in the same way. INTJs tend to be much more passionate in their arguments and much more personal. INTPs like to be detached, they would rather leave themselves out of the issue, it's all detached from the individual in a meaningful sense. Unlike the INTJ who may be fulfilled by accomplishments and may seek to drive change as this also helps them establish who they are to themselves. INTPs are more reactive in this sense, they don't go out and drive changes, they just want to get information, make theories and figure out the impersonal/objective truth of the universe. Their model is what is important to them which they are very attached to but it's not how they will feel about themselves, it's about what they have thought about all their lives. INTP inferior Fe is different from INTJs Fi. INTPs don't have as much of a priority on Feeling related matters (though it is important to our development as is Se to INTJs) they are much more plagued by issues. Like INTJs may have difficulty with details, INTPs have difficulty dealing with feelings and with people. INTPs try to detach from their feelings, they may believe there is no objective value anywhere. There's not any purpose or meaning to life. This is starkly different to INTJs who may agree that the universe is absurd is all but will create their own personal path and their vision. INTPs are more interested in the technical aspects "is there inherent meaning" rather than "I know, I'll make some". It plays to INTPs being more reactive and less proactive than INTJs. In relationships, INTPs may not speak the same language as others, they may have difficulty fitting in or they would just flat out declare everyone else to be a bunch of sheep thinking imbeciles. Either way they tend to deviate from cultural norms because they have an issue with everyone buying from that same burger place rather than buying a real quality one. Another problem is INTPs will withdraw from giving away their conclusions to others out of fear that it may hurt them. INTPs care how others are feeling, they may be more affected by the feelings of others than their own personal beliefs if they decided to form anyway. But the thing is, this care is not the "I'm going to actively help you out" kind of care it's really "let sleeping dogs lie, I won't lay a hand on your emotions just keep clam" all that said if something does go wrong the INTP may not know how to fix the problem or attempt to validate the feelings of someone else which leads to create stress. Another area they differ is stress reactions. INTJs under stress are attempt to utilize Se to distract themselves and get away from the problem in order to find an answer later on when their stress fades. In a sense they lose sight of their dominant Ni goals and seek a haven in the simpler aspects of things but may really be distracted. Another related activity caused by stress is over-indulgence in things such as food or binge drinking when stressed). INTPs may try to withdraw but they will crack open like an eggshell and burst out in tears or start screaming at others. They completely lose their composure. This can be a very frightening time for an INTP who is used to having such control. Afterwards either type would likely return to normal activities depending on their response. Another general rule is that INTPs are more likely to see social problems on a community basis to be solved while INTJs would see each problem as an individual's problem. (I might also add that when something goes wrong an INTJ is more likely to blame others than itself while an INTP may have more self-directed criticism, I assume because of the orientation of the judging functions). Last thought is INTPs may be more interested in studying social behavior and INTJs are more interested in studying hard factual sciences that suit them better.
> Anyway this is a large note regarding INTPs vs INTJs. I declare nothing to be taken definitively as it is gathered from internet threads rather than strict profiles, so some of this may be up in the air but may seem valid to some but not to others.


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## The Hungry One (Jan 26, 2011)

Fe vs. Fi, I'd say INTPs are more likely to throw a loud tantrum, while INTJs are more likely to sulk quietly. (Fe shows emotion while Fi keeps it inside.) (Mainly personal experience.)

Other observations. Many are from personal experiences, so correct me if they are wrong:

INTJS:
Give off sardonic, "dark" vibes.
Seem responsible and serious.
Can be controlling (I have yet to meet a bossy INTP). 
Speak more deliberately, following a more sequential train of thought. (I think it's due to Ni.)
INTJ stare (which I feel is more of a stillness about the eyebrows, excluding the occasional ironic twinge).
Give off an air of force and confidence.

INTPS:
Are very hung-up on definitions. 
More energetic and childlike. The girls I know behave very "cute."
More indecisive. 
Speak more haltingly. (Diverse Ne thoughts must be filtered through Ti.)
INTPs, like many Ne users, tend to look around more while talking.
Give off a more approachable air. 

Observe in action (I picked guys to eliminate the gender factor for comparisons to yourself):
INTP: Tomacity
INTJ: cztany


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## Afterburner (Jan 8, 2013)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> _This is another way I see it._
> _INTJs are more scientific in their approach hence their title. They are much more empirical than INTPs in their style (now there are INTP scientists and some like Richard Dawkins do highly value the method, but his reasoning is more deductive when and dispassionate, moving on the INTP mascot Albert Einstein was a great example of this though. He was a scientist but he really had his own projects, his own thoughts and he did not favor inductive reasoning himself and INTPs also can be more inclined to physics where you don't have to get up and study things to figure out the math, anyway another example, INTJs probably wouldn't go off on a tangent like that). INTJs are Ni doms meaning they are more flexible in a way but internally. With Te, they believe in the latest evidence. Science has changed its conclusions based upon new evidence and that's why there is the physical Te advancement that we see. Yet each conclusion is held with certainty at any point as it is held up with evidence. When evidence changes and the INTJ is successfully convinced they have no qualms with changing their mind. They are more "up-to-date" in a way, they will say "oh look new evidence, that's right this makes more sense I shall accept this theory but continue searching for more evidence" as their primary goal is to perceive they will always be looking for more information despite their tentative conclusions._
> _INTPs are more philosophical, they rely more deductive, structural logic. Their style is compared more to rationalism. An INTP is much more likely to distrust sensory data, they will cast doubt on anything if that helps them. For example you may be looking at a rock "but what if you are hallucinating and it's really a squirrel?" (To an INTJ that's irrelevant, to them if the evidence doesn't back it up then it's ridiculous. So how would you prove that you are hallucinating and not really seeing a rock, well as far as I know you can't really prove that so to the INTJ that thought may not be worth considering. But I will give them the benefit of the doubt and say they may believe their perception of the world is subjective just as much as INTPs but they still "live in it" I guess you would have to ask one.) To the INTP who does not rely on sensory information or "evidence" as much this is a perfectly valid conclusion. It could very well be a duck, you never know. This is the divide between INTPs and INTJs. As Perceiving dominants, the INTJs will be satisfied with the evidence (which is a really a pointer toward "probability of truth, more evidence means more confidence) so the INTJ is fine with this "incompleteness". You see the INTJ as the Te confidence (this is the most reasonable conclusion on latest evidence) but you don't always acknowledge that evidence changes so technically the INTJ is only dead-set on that until new information comes in and they are mostly interested in that new information as Ni dominant types. The INTP however wants a firm answer but here's the catch just like the INTJ this is the opposite of what you see. The INTJ has that firm belief according to latest info, you see the firm Te belief. INTPs however cast doubt using Ne. This is what you see as in the example the INTP will ask "what if this is not as it seems?" What you are seeing is the doubt, the asking for more information here. You believe that you are seeing a P type because the Ne is shown in that example. However you may also wonder why are they asking? Why not be settled that it is not a reasonable inference to say yes as far as I can see this appears to be a rock fine done let's move on? The reason is because INTPs are Ti dominants and they will not accept something shady and wishy washy in this way. They don't want tentative conclusions based on empirical evidence. They want the reasons and the firm deductive conclusions, they will not rely on this "inference" and say it is conclusive enough for me. Thing I noticed with Ti/Ne vs Ni/Te is Ni/Te is more concerned with probability and it's more convergent, closing in on conclusions more quickly. But the thing about those conclusions is they "probably true" in the science that scientific conclusions are "probably true and trustworthy" (I do not mean that as an insult to these thinkers). Ti/Ne sees things more in terms of possibilities, I sometimes ask "what makes this more probable than another hmm? Considering all of these things how could you possibly be so certain with that one?" So as you can see there's that first impression "yeah perceiver doubting everything that guy". But the reason is that is Ti is not satisfied with "probably". It wants "true or false" ultimately. So anything that suggests "this is probable" will be thrown back into the pool of ideas until something comes out and says "this is certain". Your first reaction may be "but nothing is certain" this to me is one of the reasons why INTPs have such "depressing nihilistic lives" they never find their place or their conclusions so fast. The truth is, unlike ENTPs who will just go "what if what if what if what if what if" on and on just to obtain more information (similar to an INTJ who is primarily out to perceive) the INTP isn't into that lifestyle no sir. INTP loves and hates his Ne. It's more information but it seems that they can never get a firm conclusion, unlike maybe the happy go lucky ENTPs, INTPs really do want the big answer and complete their personal worldview but it needs to be logical and certain to them. Personality Junkie is one interesting site and it points out the INTP may never reach these conclusions until it finally evolves it's inferior Fe to get the meaning out of things and stop being nihilistic and what not. Another thing to note related to this is INTPs are not "up-to-date" in the same fashion as INTJs. They do not follow the Te conclusions, they are more self-inclined thinkers. A wonderful example is found with our favorite INTP figure Albert Einstein, Albert Einstein personally reached his Theory of General Relativity through his thinking and deductions alone (I'm sure some other people may have been involved at different points, another difference an INTJ probably wouldn't feel the need to point that out because they may not have that same desire for accuracy there are always better examples however) so this was his view of the universe and that's what he worked with. Meanwhile other scientists where finding evidence to support their ideas about Quantum Mechanics and that was really the new thing. Einstein however was still on board with his personal views and said things such as "God doesn't play with dice" (may point toward Ti believing in a less random universe in itself but really a different point) so in this sense he was not "up-to-date". One may get the sense that Ti thinking such as philosophy doesn't advance or change anything in the real world. The Einstein example was similar in that he had his theory and that was it he stuck to it. Te users don't like this, they want to bring about changes in the real world. They want to see advances. That's why people tend to see science as more productive than philosophy at answering life's big questions. With Te you may see a man go to the moon. People like to see that physical advancement. Ti on the other hand is not the same in this respect. Ti is reflective, it will ask more core technical questions like "what principles does this operate on?" Ti doesn't invoke real world change, it takes things in and judges. In the same example, a Te accomplishment may be flying to the moon. The INTP may not necessarily be interested in what was done, so much as how it was done. In other words, how was the spaceship built, what principles was it built on. (A conceptual example would be more appropriate because of INTPs being N types but I think this will give the idea anyway). Another analogy is the computer. INTJs may be more interested in the software "realizing what you could do using the computer" the INTP may be more interested in the hardware "what is the computer made of?" The INTP may be less concerned with what it may actually be able to do because of Ti not being outwardly oriented, Ne is oriented that direction. Ne will say, "we can make this program or what about this or that blah blah" (this is more suitable for ENTPs who are called "The Inventors". They like the INTJs will be perceivers and be interested in the software, what can the computer do and seeing that. Though it will be in a different sense because of the differences between the two functions. INTJs may want to make one big giant enterprising program to sponsor a Te conclusion in a sense like using the program to print files for business and the ENTP may be more interested in making multiple smaller programs just to test and gain information about what the system could do, in a sense learning about the computer itself to fulfill Ti desires indirectly, unlike INTPs who may outright seek the hardware first then consider a few possibilities here and there but it's really about the hardware for them the information gathering second.) _
> _There are of course differences in the final two functions between the two types. One is that INTPs are tertiary Si and INTJs are inferior Se. INTJs are more focused on their intuition than INTPs are and as a result their sensing function is last in line. This means they are more focused on their thoughts and may lose sight of "reality" (we shall call it) based on their senses. This means their theories may not measure up in reality because they missed or overlooked details which sensing functions are often associated with. INTPs have tertiary Si which I find to be hardly discussed. Si is more of conservative function and it hangs onto concrete internal experiences. Having Ne on top of it INTPs are less detail oriented in practice, they tend to be less observant and absent-minded. They are also somewhat more restricted in a way, Si is a perceiving function but it is also convergent in a similar way to Ni. It points toward endpoints in a sense. So INTPs may ask "is it necessary to perform this action more than once after I already learned it or why would I buy the more expensive new shoes my old ones are working fine?" It inhibits the INTP from attempting to go out and experience newer things in a physical sense. They grow more attached to what they are used to and get comfortable with older experiences and objects than they seek to search out new toys to play with. They are also very utilitarian and unlikely to buy flashy items that have no practical use. Which does lead us to INTJs having tertiary Fi and INTPs having inferior Fe. INTPs are very much self-discovery kind of people as with all introverts but it's more about discovering their logical view of how everything fits together and is connected, to the INTP if science may have benefitted from one of their ideas "great, fantastic that has nothing to do with them." They are really seeking for answers in their heads, they don't care about how well science is doing or anything in a way Te does. The reason I say this is because Fi is also associated with self-discovery. INTJs are willing a to reach conclusions about themselves (referring to introverted judgement) through Te acts. Unlike the INTP who is usually contented with Ti alone with no Fe interference, INTJs have Te over Fi. I'm not the master of Fi but I will give it a go anyway. INTJs may improve themselves through making Te judgements. Perhaps by becoming the top physicist they have reach their big vision for the world provided by Ni and they have enhanced their own being. But let's not forget Fi is really all about moral and ethical judgements. Fi is really about trying true to yourself. If everyone is pressuring an INTJ to go against his own will it will not budge, the INTJ decides what's good for the INTJ not anyone else. Similarly the INTP thoughts will not be influenced by external evidence or authority in the same way. INTJs tend to be much more passionate in their arguments and much more personal. INTPs like to be detached, they would rather leave themselves out of the issue, it's all detached from the individual in a meaningful sense. Unlike the INTJ who may be fulfilled by accomplishments and may seek to drive change as this also helps them establish who they are to themselves. INTPs are more reactive in this sense, they don't go out and drive changes, they just want to get information, make theories and figure out the impersonal/objective truth of the universe. Their model is what is important to them which they are very attached to but it's not how they will feel about themselves, it's about what they have thought about all their lives. INTP inferior Fe is different from INTJs Fi. INTPs don't have as much of a priority on Feeling related matters (though it is important to our development as is Se to INTJs) they are much more plagued by issues. Like INTJs may have difficulty with details, INTPs have difficulty dealing with feelings and with people. INTPs try to detach from their feelings, they may believe there is no objective value anywhere. There's not any purpose or meaning to life. This is starkly different to INTJs who may agree that the universe is absurd is all but will create their own personal path and their vision. INTPs are more interested in the technical aspects "is there inherent meaning" rather than "I know, I'll make some". It plays to INTPs being more reactive and less proactive than INTJs. In relationships, INTPs may not speak the same language as others, they may have difficulty fitting in or they would just flat out declare everyone else to be a bunch of sheep thinking imbeciles. Either way they tend to deviate from cultural norms because they have an issue with everyone buying from that same burger place rather than buying a real quality one. Another problem is INTPs will withdraw from giving away their conclusions to others out of fear that it may hurt them. INTPs care how others are feeling, they may be more affected by the feelings of others than their own personal beliefs if they decided to form anyway. But the thing is, this care is not the "I'm going to actively help you out" kind of care it's really "let sleeping dogs lie, I won't lay a hand on your emotions just keep clam" all that said if something does go wrong the INTP may not know how to fix the problem or attempt to validate the feelings of someone else which leads to create stress. Another area they differ is stress reactions. INTJs under stress are attempt to utilize Se to distract themselves and get away from the problem in order to find an answer later on when their stress fades. In a sense they lose sight of their dominant Ni goals and seek a haven in the simpler aspects of things but may really be distracted. Another related activity caused by stress is over-indulgence in things such as food or binge drinking when stressed). INTPs may try to withdraw but they will crack open like an eggshell and burst out in tears or start screaming at others. They completely lose their composure. This can be a very frightening time for an INTP who is used to having such control. Afterwards either type would likely return to normal activities depending on their response. Another general rule is that INTPs are more likely to see social problems on a community basis to be solved while INTJs would see each problem as an individual's problem. (I might also add that when something goes wrong an INTJ is more likely to blame others than itself while an INTP may have more self-directed criticism, I assume because of the orientation of the judging functions). Last thought is INTPs may be more interested in studying social behavior and INTJs are more interested in studying hard factual sciences that suit them better._
> _Anyway this is a large note regarding INTPs vs INTJs. I declare nothing to be taken definitively as it is gathered from internet threads rather than strict profiles, so some of this may be up in the air but may seem valid to some but not to others._











Seems decently accurate for the most part, though I myself relate to many of the INTP parts.


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## Math geek (Jul 23, 2014)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> I've been trying to work out the _real_ difference between INTJ and INTP and from reading many descriptions, I am unable to find a clear, fool-proof way to draw a line. I am still unsure of my type, and despite the cognitive functions being different, the combination of them and their outwardly observed behavior don't seem different enough to be noticeable. I have read through both of these:
> 
> Socionics Types: ILI-INTp
> Socionics Types: LII-INTj
> ...


Simple. INTJs reserve emotions for themselves and those they can trust, INTPs are literally horrified in the middle of any kind of emotional heat, be it in themselves or in others. Seriously. An Fi rant has a heads-or-tails chance of getting partial compliance from us if the heat is enough. From NFPs, it is more like a negative lottery.

INTPs do not know how to judge others, in a sense. They need to do the dreaded task of listening to gossip, or have been really hurt intentionally and knowingly deliberately, before they see faults in others, because they see everything like that in a relativistic manner because it is their inferior function to judge others most of the time, as mean or rude. If anything, they see themselves as faulted because others know more about how to point out character flaws in others. They feel like having enemies based on differing views is pointless. While this sounds like a pat on the back, the result is recluse, distrust, and assuming irrationality applies everywhere unless proven otherwise, as standing up for themselves seems to be pretty pointless unless in very specific and few exceptions. INTPs also have this thing where, when someone walks up for small talk, they act ok with it until it becomes a regular thing or they feel uncomfortable about what is being said. They hate guilt trips, knowing they are supposed to feel or act somehow out of obligation, then see it as an attempt of manipulation and it doesn't hold but instead marks them as one in the "dangerous Fi" group. They cannot connect and empathize deeply unless they themselves have come to the _logical_ conclusion themselves of what the other person is venting. Even when blame is not being placed on them, they feel awkward in the middle of something.

The INTJ, then, is more empathetic and can stand selected emotional distress. It is not their main utility, but there is potential there to do something. At the same time, nobody will walk in on them and start chatting or venting, as they don't hold back. They are "normal enough", in the sense that they have individualistic desires. You can fill in more, IDK if I even got this right.

Then there is a maturity aspect. Fi can be integrated significantly into an INTJs personality fairly quickly. Thus it takes a less repressed stance and is an unspoken, but relatively mature part of the INTJ personality. The INTP treats Fe, and others' Fi more, like a hot-potato. Not that we hate Fi users or judge them much, but Fi tries to change others sometimes, yet it is so powerful, that it is the thing that causes us a strong tension between independence and horror. It also does not end sometimes, until it has dumped several hours of complaints. Suppose the average INTP is drained after a 200 minute party. By proportion, they get drained after just under one hour of small talk in a group of gossipers, or a group project in school pulled off task. Now, it takes less than ten minutes for an INTP who has not been army-drilled through it regularly of others' anger, if targeted where it hurts or generates forced empathy. I wonder, are you afraid of haunted flashbacks from Si?


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Read very carefully.


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## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

@Grandmaster Yoda That lengthy post still didn't clarify it for me. The more I read about Ti the more certain I am that I am INTP. When I take cognitive function test I always score highest on Ti and Te. I am almost certain I am Ti Te Fi Ni or something like that. No matter how many descriptions I read, the difference between Ti and Ni is a mystery to me


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## Ziggurat (Jun 12, 2010)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> Look up Fi vs Fe.
> INTPs main problem is with Fe, their stress results in emotional outbursts and they are frequently plagued by emotional discomfort and low competence in dealing with the feelings of other people.


Odd, I consider myself to be extremely emotionally stable as well as empathetic and compassionate.


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## O_o (Oct 22, 2011)

WoOw! 
Look at the paragraphs, now that's some good shit. 
Is there even anything for me to add anymore?

My 5 cents anyway: 

*General about Fe *: What is Fe? Fe is judging emotional atmosphere and_ logically reacting_ based on this. It's essentially emotional intelligence, in a way. Obviously it wouldn't make Fe users emotional water fountains : what they are doing is judging the environment they're in "I'm not going to randomly burst into tears now, why? This situations wouldn't call for it." It's knowing how to act emotionally in an environment based on always established norms of how one is meant to react (say, how to act when you're talking to granny vs your BFFFL. Fancy suit event vs let-loose party). It's knowing how to manipulate this emotional environment if it would make sense for the environment to be X way instead of Y. Not because you happen to just think it should be X, but because you understand that based on these sort of "norms" it's meant to be so. 

*General about Fi and potentially in INTJs*: It's linear like Ti. But towards different thing. Towards value. Like Te adapts towards the modern of science, outside knowledge etc. Like Fe adapts towards already established social norms in X situation. Ti's focus is towards it's internal, want-to-be linear thinking. Fi focus is towards it's internal want-to-be linear values. Fi dominants are likely to be in control of this and have it as well developed and abstract. INTJs will struggle with it. In it's position, they're likely to maybe find it better and more developed that it actually is. Like ENTPs and their Fe. 

*Fe in INTPs* : weakest function. Result? Being thrown off by this. Will likely not even be aware of all of the established social norms which others may naturally see as just being so. Ex: I wasn't even aware that I am supposed to sake the hand of my interviewer during a job interview. May have a struggle with this sort of change in social environments "ex: wait, how am I supposed to react to this?" Why are Fe dominant users less likely to burst out randomly in the worst of situations? Because Fe is a logical function, it reads it's situations first, it's reactive when it sees fit to be. INTP have trouble with this judgement. ENTPs will overestimate it and get a sort of "rude awakening" often. 
*Ti in INTPs* : Both Fi and Ti are linear. There is a reason Philosophy is often brought up INTPs. But the thinking is the sort of thinking Ti feels most comfortable with. I don't trust statistics often; for multiple reasons. Are they cool? Sure! But they're telling me numbers. Percentages. The thinking doesn't work with the sense of statistical chances. It works in a more "X is Y. Y is always Z. Therefore, X is Z." rather than "99% of all X's are Y. Therefore, this X is probably a Y too" manner. Well, great, but what if this X is the 1%? 
*Ne in INTPs* : the "what if this X is the 1%" variable from the example above.


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

Ziggurat said:


> Odd, I consider myself to be extremely emotionally stable as well as empathetic and compassionate.


Define "stable". According to the theory INTPs are not well in terms of Fe until they well into middle age. I guess emotions isn't the right word. Really the value of value judgments or whatever feeling is defined as, but it's usually associated with sociality and relating with other people.


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> @Grandmaster Yoda That lengthy post still didn't clarify it for me. The more I read about Ti the more certain I am that I am INTP. When I take cognitive function test I always score highest on Ti and Te. I am almost certain I am Ti Te Fi Ni or something like that. No matter how many descriptions I read, the difference between Ti and Ni is a mystery to me


It's all about knowing yourself really. Think about yourself. It's not so much the definitions. At least I think they are fairly different.


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## Ziggurat (Jun 12, 2010)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> Define "stable". According to the theory INTPs are not well in terms of Fe until they well into middle age. I guess emotions isn't the right word. Really the value of value judgments or whatever feeling is defined as, but it's usually associated with sociality and relating with other people.


I think very little of the "theory".


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## O_o (Oct 22, 2011)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> Define "stable". According to the theory INTPs are not well in terms of Fe until they well into middle age. I guess emotions isn't the right word. Really the value of value judgments or whatever feeling is defined as, but it's usually associated with sociality and relating with other people.


Careful with this. How stable someone is has nothing to do with Fe. Or Fi for that matter. 
Whether an intp is very emotional or not is irrelevant to an entent, because you will find both and it's likely to confound. 

Its ones rational judgement based on already established social principles. Intp would struggle with picking up on them rather than necessarily their own internal emotional state.Irrationally bursting into emotion when the time or situation doesn't call for it according to established social standards can be an _example_ of poor Fe. But not the determiner.


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## O_o (Oct 22, 2011)

Anyways,

i would think that being _aware_ of these so called already established social principles (ex: take crapping when others are clapping, etc) but not _giving a shit_ or finding value in it due to personal reasons would indicate lack of appreciation for Fe. Therefore making the individual an FI user rather than a low fe user (?)

someone correct me if I'm wrong: I don't think I am, or by much.


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## Rhaegar (Aug 3, 2014)

Fe-users are hollow and ghoulish on the inside so they feed off other people's emotions and feelings because they can't generate any themselves.

Fi-users are dicks who only care about their own emotions and inner morals, and because they're incompetent when it comes to empathy they try to mimic other people's emotions by comparing them to their own subjective ones, which often isn't true.

Ask yourself this question: Are you a hollow undead or a little emo kid who nobody understands?


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

O_o said:


> Careful with this. How stable someone is has nothing to do with Fe. Or Fi for that matter.
> Whether an intp is very emotional or not is irrelevant to an entent, because you will find both and it's likely to confound.
> 
> Its ones rational judgement based on already established social principles. Intp would struggle with picking up on them rather than necessarily their own internal emotional state.Irrationally bursting into emotion when the time or situation doesn't call for it according to established social standards can be an _example_ of poor Fe. But not the determiner.


The more I hear, the less I know. As I already know, F and T are both rational functions. Sounds dumb to name one based on "logic". That would then be self-explanatory and redundant. It's correlated to Big Five's dimension which basically egocentric vs the opposite (I don't remember or something.)


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## Afterburner (Jan 8, 2013)

Bugs said:


> You may not be an INTJ then. :tongue:
> 
> Do you find yourself using more deductive logic or inductive logic?


Inductive, but I need to observe more.



Grandmaster Yoda said:


> I disagree with the concept that INTPs learn for no reason. It's obviously to achieve an understanding of the world and construct logical frameworks. That's goal, people just don't recognize a goal when they see one that doesn't affect them. Boo to people.
> INTJs are perceiving dominants, they are really the ones doing things for fun. But that's not a good interpretation, Ni seeks more information, indefinitely, while Ti seeks closure and that closure is the forum of these logical principles that they see as dominating their perception of reality.
> INTJs are not actually grounded, that is a mistake. They want their ideas to "line up with reality". Which is a completely ambiguous claim to make. Te/Se is said to be more pragmatic and it is to some extent. Science, uses empirical evidence to check over hypotheses just like Te checks over Ni's impressions. But in reality INTJs are pretty the same stuff, think about it. INTJs are arguing to be more realistic, but are they being realistic? No they are arguing just like every other IN type.


That clears things up. That's what I've been thinking, having seen a few really good Ni descriptions lately. Seems to fit me better, though I'm still not quite sure. But I am young, so I don't think that I'll really know for a while.


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

Afterburner said:


> That clears things up. Fits what I've seen better. Ni here seems to fit me better, though I'm still not quite sure. But I am young, so I don't think that I'll really know for a while.


According to some ideas laid out by personality junkie INTPs start off with developing Ti, so as kids they tend to be close minded and stubborn (or more noticeably so than afterwards). Then Ne comes into play and that's the point where INTPs start to become more open and lose certainty of things and have difficulty coming to conclusions. This is said to be a love/hate relationship with Ne, on one head, Ne is giving more information on the other hand Ti is finding it more and more difficult to put things together. Remember INTPs are skeptics (archetype sense, often reject dogma). INTJs however start with Ni which means their own "worldview" is coming together. Then they begin to close up their ideas when Te starts developing. In the beginning, INTJs are inquisitive and curious. INTPs are skeptical and questioning. Then the INTPs start to be the one's asking the questions and INTJs are answering all of the questions. Ha.
But I think if it's true, you may be be starting or have started to notice Te developing or Ne if you either type at this point in your life. I can't tell you what to look for. Tbh, before maybe a few years ago, I had no interests in philosophy or science. I didn't really care much, I was only good at math. Maybe I was pretty much jump started at some point or it happened gradually. Ti is has an overriding sense of fairness and independence. As a kid, I wouldn't necessarily have identified with Ne at least looking back. Besides the fact that had an extremely unstated concept of duality as a three year old, I wasn't that big of an intellectual. (I tended to look at my hand, move my fingers and be completely baffled, it seemed mystical, how can I think to make this move?). Besides that I could be mainly categorized as independent, I never, ever for never, ever forever wanted help with anything or wanted to be disturbed. I guess that's all I can say. For some reason I think INTJs would be more of the kids who always ask questions, I've always asked myself the questions. Before I spiral into a critical mass of poor recollection, I reccomend you read the INTJ and INTP childhood descriptions located in the Articles subforum of each type's forum for a better understanding.


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## Afterburner (Jan 8, 2013)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> According to some ideas laid out by personality junkie INTPs start off with developing Ti, so as kids they tend to be close minded and stubborn (or more noticeably so than afterwards). Then Ne comes into play and that's the point where INTPs start to become more open and lose certainty of things and have difficulty coming to conclusions. This is said to be a love/hate relationship with Ne, on one head, Ne is giving more information on the other hand Ti is finding it more and more difficult to put things together. Remember INTPs are skeptics (archetype sense, often reject dogma). INTJs however start with Ni which means their own "worldview" is coming together. Then they begin to close up their ideas when Te starts developing. In the beginning, INTJs are inquisitive and curious. INTPs are skeptical and questioning. Then the INTPs start to be the one's asking the questions and INTJs are answering all of the questions. Ha.
> But I think if it's true, you may be be starting or have started to notice Te developing or Ne if you either type at this point in your life. I can't tell you what to look for. Tbh, before maybe a few years ago, I had no interests in philosophy or science. I didn't really care much, I was only good at math. Maybe I was pretty much jump started at some point or it happened gradually. Ti is has an overriding sense of fairness and independence. As a kid, I wouldn't necessarily have identified with Ne at least looking back. Besides the fact that had an extremely unstated concept of duality as a three year old, I wasn't that big of an intellectual. (I tended to look at my hand, move my fingers and be completely baffled, it seemed mystical, how can I think to make this move?). Besides that I could be mainly categorized as independent, I never, ever for never, ever forever wanted help with anything or wanted to be disturbed. I guess that's all I can say. For some reason I think INTJs would be more of the kids who always ask questions, I've always asked myself the questions. Before I spiral into a critical mass of poor recollection, I reccomend you read the INTJ and INTP childhood descriptions located in the Articles subforum of each type's forum for a better understanding.


I've already seen those, but I read them again. I'm still not sure. Parts of both resonated with me. When I was younger I had a lot of academic/intellectual interests and asked a lot of questions, but I could be stubborn, and would answer questions authoritatively sometimes. I've definitely become more open-minded having learned more, but I don't know if I can attribute that to functional development rather than intellectually maturing. I definitely was a forming a worldview early on. I've become much more skeptical of myself now, though I've always questioned others and the world.


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