# Are we bad?



## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

I feel like most humans are very domesticated compared to me. When I'm around these sorts, I say very little to avoid the inevitable fallout. It has probably caused stress and social anxiety for me actually. Many times I have been seen as the daredevil who takes it too far, or just a person with an extremely inappropriate sense of humor. Even the 'nicer' sp girls at parties don't get into drunken sparring matches usually, but I grew up with male friends, and its not uncommon in a moment of carefree fun to rumble playfully. 

I'd had some more conservative friends in college, and I would stay up too late and drink too much for their taste. I found some who were more on my level at the time, an estp and esfp. They thought I was 'fun' instead of 'crazy.' 

In socionics, the Si types are thought of as 'softer' because they don't feel as much of a connection with the external, not in the aggressive way the Se types do. Maybe this accounts for some of it. When I'm in a group of alphas or deltas, I'm just thinking that I need out so I can breathe without scaring people.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

monemi said:


> SP's aren't more well adjusted to society. I mean, socially SP's are probably some of the most liked. But schools aren't designed for us. Work places aren't designed for us. And society tends to frown on our life choices. I'm not rebellious but I get treated like a rebel. The rest of the world is just extremely conservative and it takes effort to fit into that structured world.
> 
> As for OP, yeah, sometimes I compare myself to people around me. I grew up in an SP household and the rest of the world has always been a little alien.


You could apply everything you just said about SPs to NFs. Even more so.

Actually schools are designed for you. How else can one assess a student, or any human, besides sensing? Outside of "facts", and the concrete? What NF has to offer is more abstract, more complex to figure out. It cannot be grasped statistically, and requires beneath the surface thinking and navigation. And the world doesn't want to deal with that. We live in a world of test scores and paper results. Of salaries and numbers. Of SENSING.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

FearAndTrembling said:


> *We live in a world of test scores and paper results. Of salaries and numbers. Of SENSING.*


Of Te.


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## SuperSoaker (Aug 19, 2013)

FearAndTrembling said:


> You could apply everything you just said about SPs to NFs. Even more so.
> 
> Actually schools are designed for you. How else can one assess a student, or any human, besides sensing? Outside of "facts", and the concrete? What NF has to offer is more abstract, more complex to figure out. It cannot be grasped statistically, and requires beneath the surface thinking and navigation. And the world doesn't want to deal with that. We live in a world of test scores and paper results. Of salaries and numbers. Of SENSING.


School is all about Te and sitting still. Not really my flavor.


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## unoriginal (Dec 22, 2013)

I've been a bad boy... I need a nanny


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Promethea said:


> Of Te.


Actually, that is a major enemy as well. Perhaps the bigger one. Good call. I do my fair share bitching about Te.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Actually schools are designed for you. How else can one assess a student, or any human, besides sensing? Outside of "facts", and the concrete? What NF has to offer is more abstract, more complex to figure out. It cannot be grasped statistically, and requires beneath the surface thinking and navigation. And the world doesn't want to deal with that. We live in a world of test scores and paper results. Of salaries and numbers. Of SENSING.


Bullshit. Schools are designed for kids to sit down and listen for long periods of time. Focus on pieces of paper and chalk boards and talking. I think and learn best by doing and I HATE sitting. I don't wanna sit. How am I supposed to think sitting down? Why do we have to sit down in classes? Why can't classes be interactive? Why can't we ask the person next to us what the answer is? In the work place, I collaborate with other people and I learn during that process. In classes, it's called cheating. Why do we have to write tests? That's not natural. Let me show my teacher that I know how to do it. I want to do hands on. 

There is nothing about schools that is designed for SP's. Schools punish SP's over and over and over again. Do you have any idea how many detentions I got growing up? How many times my parents got called in about my behaviour? But they set us up to fail. Sit down and shut up. I can memorize and regurgitate anything from any book you hand me but it doesn't mean I learned a damn thing from that book. Schools break SP's. They don't train or teach them.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

monemi said:


> Bullshit. Schools are designed for kids to sit down and listen for long periods of time. Focus on pieces of paper and chalk boards and talking. I think and learn best by doing and I HATE sitting. I don't wanna sit. How am I supposed to think sitting down? Why do we have to sit down in classes? Why can't classes be interactive? Why can't we ask the person next to us what the answer is? In the work place, I collaborate with other people and I learn during that process. In classes, it's called cheating. Why do we have to write tests? That's not natural. Let me show my teacher that I know how to do it. I want to do hands on.
> 
> There is nothing about schools that is designed for SP's. Schools punish SP's over and over and over again. Do you have any idea how many detentions I got growing up? How many times my parents got called in about my behaviour? But they set us up to fail. Sit down and shut up. I can memorize and regurgitate anything from any book you hand me but it doesn't mean I learned a damn thing from that book. Schools break SP's. They don't train or teach them.


lol. Look, they aren't designed for SPs, but they are even less designed for NF. You sound like me. Principal had my parents on speed dial. I can't even sit still in a car or movie theatre. Anywhere. Always dreaming. I have to rewind movies, TV, cause I miss stuff, cause I can't stop dreaming. Now imagine how boring classes must be, when even entertainment makes me bored. 

Actually, the system is totally extroverted. As Jung said, extroversion is first and foremost "a bridge to your neighbor". Teaching system and society are totally extroverted. How else could they be taught? It needs communication. So immediately the introvert way of life is thrown out the window. Teaching is like religion, it is spread the same way, and just as boring. Well, I should say it is more like Western religion. It is missionary in nature --both teaching and Christianity. And has the same pitfalls. INF are like these little, quiet buddhas in this crazy extroverted world that doesn't value the individual.

I've said before, that even BEING an introvert is considered rude by society, now couple that with very heavy intuitive , with feeling, and I am much more awkward than you in relation to society. Fitting in takes sensing, and being in touch with reality. You can't fit in by dreaming. You can't learn that way. So all my life I was the bad guy because people think I OWE THEM COMMUNICATION. Have had social situations imposed on me my whole life, and was the bad guy whenever I tried to resist. I bother nobody, nobody stops bugging me. I'm the bad guy because I won't let people constantly impose themselves on me. Seriously, introversion is considered rude.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Actually, that is a major enemy as well. Perhaps the bigger one. Good call. I do my fair share bitching about Te.


If you're an infj, then Te is what you're least good at. I suck at it too, I can't even fill out a form without feeling tense and anxious. 



monemi said:


> Bullshit. Schools are designed for kids to sit down and listen for long periods of time. Focus on pieces of paper and chalk boards and talking. I think and learn best by doing and I HATE sitting. I don't wanna sit. How am I supposed to think sitting down? Why do we have to sit down in classes? Why can't classes be interactive? Why can't we ask the person next to us what the answer is? In the work place, I collaborate with other people and I learn during that process. In classes, it's called cheating. Why do we have to write tests? That's not natural. Let me show my teacher that I know how to do it. I want to do hands on.
> 
> There is nothing about schools that is designed for SP's. Schools punish SP's over and over and over again. Do you have any idea how many detentions I got growing up? How many times my parents got called in about my behaviour? But they set us up to fail. Sit down and shut up. I can memorize and regurgitate anything from any book you hand me but it doesn't mean I learned a damn thing from that book. Schools break SP's. They don't train or teach them.


I feel all the pain of that. I was a chronic excuse maker to get up and walk around. My teachers would catch on and be even more strict about it. Then I went to a magnet school at some point and it was Montessori-inspired. They would allow us to roam pretty freely as long as we got our work done - and most work was projects that we could take our time on. One guy hadn't done shit all year long in english, but without the strict deadlines he was able to make up the work and still graduate - of course he was sitting his butt in a desk for two weeks after the rest of us graduated, lol.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

I bet I am a bigger pacer and walker than both of you. I pace a lot. And I rarely sit, unless necessary. Like if I go to a bar with friends, we have a table, they sit, I stand. I do that everywhere. People are always telling me to sit down because I am making them nervous. lol. I hear that from such a wide variety of people, in varying scenarios. I am nervous/uptight though. Moving is how I kind of burn it off. When a group of people and I are walking together, I am two blocks ahead. They are behind. I don't care. I must do everything fast. Let the world move at their pace, I will move at mine. I have a lot of nervous energy, yet am tired at the same time. But sitting through stuff has not really gotten much easier with age.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

FearAndTrembling said:


> lol. Look, they aren't designed for SPs, but they are even less designed for NF. You sound like me. Principal had my parents on speed dial. I can't even sit still in a car or movie theatre. Anywhere. Always dreaming. I have to rewind movies, TV, cause I miss stuff, cause I can't stop dreaming. Now imagine how boring classes must be, when even entertainment makes me bored.
> 
> Actually, the system is totally extroverted. As Jung said, extroversion is first and foremost "a bridge to your neighbor". Teaching system and society are totally extroverted. How else could they be taught? It needs communication. So immediately the introvert way of life is thrown out the window. Teaching is like religion, it is spread the same way, and just as boring. Well, I should say it is more like Western religion. It is missionary in nature --both teaching and Christianity. And has the same pitfalls. INF are like these little, quiet buddhas in this crazy extroverted world that doesn't value the individual.
> 
> I've said before, that even BEING an introvert is considered rude by society, now couple that with very heavy intuitive , with feeling, and I am much more awkward than you in relation to society. Fitting in takes sensing, and being in touch with reality. You can't fit in by dreaming. You can't learn that way. So all my life I was the bad guy because people think I OWE THEM COMMUNICATION. Have had social situations imposed on me my whole life, and was the bad guy whenever I tried to resist. I bother nobody, nobody stops bugging me. I'm the bad guy because I won't let people constantly impose themselves on me. Seriously, introversion is considered rude.


If it's easier for SP's than NF's, why do SP's drop out of school at the highest rates?


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

FearAndTrembling said:


> I bet I am a bigger pacer and walker than both of you. I pace a lot. And I rarely sit, unless necessary. Like if I go to a bar with friends, we have a table, they sit, I stand. I do that everywhere. People are always telling me to sit down because I am making them nervous. lol. I hear that from such a wide variety of people, in varying scenarios. I am nervous/uptight though. Moving is how I kind of burn it off. When a group of people and I are walking together, I am two blocks ahead. They are behind. I don't care. I must do everything fast. Let the world move at their pace, I will move at mine. I have a lot of nervous energy, yet am tired at the same time. But sitting through stuff has not really gotten much easier with age.


I'm not nervous or fast paced. I'm pretty relaxed. I just do my best thinking on my feet. People don't notice my standing. They notice my hands. My hands are always moving. I talk with my hands. Friends have grabbed my wrists before and we learned I can't keep talking. I lost track of what I was saying and felt very frustrated.


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## Permeate (May 27, 2012)

FearAndTrembling said:


> I bet I am a bigger pacer and walker than both of you. I pace a lot. And I rarely sit, unless necessary. Like if I go to a bar with friends, we have a table, they sit, I stand. I do that everywhere. People are always telling me to sit down because I am making them nervous. lol. I hear that from such a wide variety of people, in varying scenarios. I am nervous/uptight though. Moving is how I kind of burn it off. When a group of people and I are walking together, I am two blocks ahead. They are behind. I don't care. I must do everything fast. Let the world move at their pace, I will move at mine. I have a lot of nervous energy, yet am tired at the same time. But sitting through stuff has not really gotten much easier with age.


Why are you so nervous?

I have an INTJ friend that is like this. It perplexes me.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Permeate said:


> Why are you so nervous?
> 
> I have an INTJ friend that is like this. It perplexes me.


Honestly don't know. Don't know if it is a Ni or INFJ thing. I am a worrier, and have a lot of anxiety.


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## 626Stitch (Oct 22, 2010)

> Honestly don't know. Don't know if it is a Ni or INFJ thing. I am a worrier, and have a lot of anxiety.


Maybe its because you have a lot of mental energy but not much energy to take action in the world, so you fear being overwhelemed by external demands. Reading your posts you sound like an E5.


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Honestly don't know. Don't know if it is a Ni or INFJ thing. I am a worrier, and have a lot of anxiety.


I think it's an Ni-Se thing. Your inferior Se is being driven crazy by your Ni, and must act. My INFJ daughter used to spin for hours on her sit-n-spin when she was little--never ever got dizzy, and later, she'd just spin. I don't know how many headphones she went through, tearing them loose from her ears while spinning. ;-)

I'm an active person too. I have to walk, pace, etc. to think. Looking back, I don't know how I survived school... I was very, super shy and introverted to boot, though, but I hated school from start to finish--until I transferred to a tiny private school, and was allowed to be myself. We homeschooled our INFJ daughter, so I don't know how she would have fared in a school. She's in college now, and doing fine--except for some lame classes, but she still gets excellent grades.


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## AddictiveMuse (Nov 14, 2013)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Honestly don't know. Don't know if it is a Ni or INFJ thing. I am a worrier, and have a lot of anxiety.


 @FearAndTrembling I'm such a worry wart and have a lot of anxiety, yet I'm ENFP, I think anxiety is probably more of a genetic thing as my mother is exactly like me, but I'm sure cognitive functions have a role to play in it as well.



ferroequinologist said:


> I think it's an Ni-Se thing. Your inferior Se is being driven crazy by your Ni, and must act. My INFJ daughter used to spin for hours on her sit-n-spin when she was little--never ever got dizzy, and later, she'd just spin. I don't know how many headphones she went through, tearing them loose from her ears while spinning. ;-)
> 
> I'm an active person too. I have to walk, pace, etc. to think. Looking back, I don't know how I survived school... I was very, super shy and introverted to boot, though, but I hated school from start to finish--until I transferred to a tiny private school, and was allowed to be myself. We homeschooled our INFJ daughter, so I don't know how she would have fared in a school. She's in college now, and doing fine--except for some lame classes, but she still gets excellent grades.


One random question @ferroequinologist, I remember how great you are at helping people out with these kind of things.
(or just answering questions)
Would it be the same for Ne-Si, oh I know a better question!..what are the negative effects of dominant Ne and inferior Si if Ni-Se has negative effects I'm sure every other function order would too, I know this probably isn't the right place to ask but this was kinda random and I was interested


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

AddictiveMuse said:


> @_FearAndTrembling_ I'm such a worry wart and have a lot of anxiety, yet I'm ENFP, I think anxiety is probably more of a genetic thing as my mother is exactly like me, but I'm sure cognitive functions have a role to play in it as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hm... not really... I only describe what I experience(d). My personal realm is Fi-Se-Ni-Te, and by marriage to an INTP, with distance and from my perspective, Ti-Ne-Si-Fe... But I shall try...



> Would it be the same for Ne-Si, oh I know a better question!..what are the negative effects of dominant Ne and inferior Si if Ni-Se has negative effects I'm sure every other function order would too, I know this probably isn't the right place to ask but this was kinda random and I was interested


I can only imagine that the need to move, etc. not being a big deal. My wife, and my ISFJ coworker tend to be rather still, and prefer rote memorization to action. But my exposure is limited...

As to the negative sides of these functions, I would recommend reading these two articles. 

INTP - Chapter 3: Tonight's Main Event--Romantic Relationships Versus the Evil Twins of the INTP Psyche 


INTP, ENTP, ISTP, & ESTP Relationships: Common Roadblocks - Personality Junkie

Both of these are geared more towards Ne-Ti and weak Fe, but I suspect that the real instigator in these situations is that strong Ne, working with a weaker function. In other words, some variant of what is described in these articles could happen with an ENFP as well. I dunno. Read them, and decide for yourself how close they get to you...


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## Kysinor (Mar 19, 2009)

You do not have the obligation to oblige to high expectational ideals if they have such. I do not think that SP's are bad than any other temperament. In fact... most people that have pissed me off the most have been NFs generally and I consider myself a moral person as it goes.


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## chimeric (Oct 15, 2011)

FearAndTrembling said:


> NFs are judging the hell out of you in their heads. But we do that to everybody. SJs are judging you too, but for different reasons. You seem to have a good grasp on the "why".


Everyone judges everyone, SPs and NTs included.


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