# Falling between the gaps



## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

I've noticed a number of famous people that seem to be especially difficult to type. Personally, I think it points out the shortcomings of the Enneagram types. There seem to be gaps in the types where some people just don't fit because there's something not there to account for them. 

I'm going to list some people below that tend to have multiple typings (I'm listing just a few of the people and possible typings that came to mind). Perhaps there's something about particular combinations of typings that points to something.

David Bowie - 3w4, 4w3, or 7?
Adolph Hitler - 6w5, sx4, or 8?
Barack Obama - 3w4, 9, or 1?
Hillary Clinton - 1, 3, or 8?
Bill Clinton - 3, 7 or 9?
George W. Bush - 6, 9, or 3?
John Lennon - 5w4, 6w5, or 8?
Marilyn Monroe - 2, 3, or 6?
Madonna - 2, 3, or 8?
Angelina Jolie - 4, 6, or 8?
Marlon Brando - 4w3 or 8?
John F. Kennedy - 3w4 or 7?

These are just a few to consider. Add your own if you like.

Some possible reasons offered by the Enneagram types for mistypings include:

it can be difficult to discern between the type and the wing as to which is dominant
stress/security, direction of integration/disintegration (the inner lines) may come into play
certain types are look-alikes
it has to do with Tritype
the similarities have to do with some triad (e.g., withdrawn, aggressive, compliant, etc.)

Some other possibilities perhaps:

we don't really know the private side of the person or confuse the public persona with who they really are
people are looking at different things (e.g., behavior vs. motivations)
people have different interpretations of the types and they'll never agree
people are only looking at celebrities superficially and haven't looked deep enough
the Enneagram types are limited by the symbol (only 9 numbers) but there are really more types
people are not simply a single type

I'm curious what others consider to be the difficulty in typing certain people (or at least coming to some majority consensus)? If the Enneagram types are complete and accurate, shouldn't this be easy?


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## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

this is great, and opens a lot of dialogue: 


one thing i'll say, or try to add and hopefully it isn't covered in your OP (i skimmed), is that i think from what i see on line, the main way of typing has to do with an image of what the type is in their own mind, and then overlaying that and finding clues they're looking for after the fact (of course you'll find what you're looking for with people you don't know, while trying to interpret their actions from the third person, unless they're entirety runs counter towards a type). 

types three's are an example. it seems like they're supposed to be this very sleek, always-socially-intuitive to their benefit, and smooth as hell. i know people who are threes (likely wing two's--and 2's and 3's can definitely blend, so the arrangement is slowly but surely making a little more sense over time), and they aren't any of the above--and they are at the same time. 

if you hang around them for any time, the image falls apart, but from the perspective of those viewing them in their professional spheres... they do completely 'wow' them. but to others who are around them 24/7, they're good natured, sort of bumbling goofballs. but neither of them would fit the mold for what is sought judging by what "makes" a 3 in any community i've ever seen online. 

and i think this speaks to the variability (which i always go on about, ) of people. you cannot approach someone with an idea of what something "is", because they can easily show you their own version of what you're looking for, and it can be missed. 


maybe there aren't "gaps" really (which is what i guess you're getting at?), but our views and perspectives become narrow based upon what we expect.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

@*Donovan*

Sounds to me like you bring two points.
1. People type according to their pre-existing interpretation of the types (which may or may not match others).
2. People focus on things that support that interpretation (which usually can be found if they look hard enough).

I've seen plenty of what looks like that online too. 

What about those particular famous people that are consistently difficult to type as I listed? The ones the "experts" even have trouble agreeing on. Any thoughts on why they're so difficult to nail down to a particular type?

For example, there's often agreement by authors on Mother Teresa, Einstein, Martin Luther King, etc. But Marilyn Monroe for example, I've seen typed four different ways by four different authors (2, 3, 4, and 6).


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

IMO it's not a fault in the Enneagram system - I don't think there are in-between types, but I think it can just be difficult - if not impossible - to type someone, especially a celebrity. Most people don't come right out and say the things that make them a type. Of course there are other ways, reading between the lines and such, but...

Think image types might be especially tricky as image types are always shielding their identity - some might be better, or more developed than others. 
I mean irl too, so many people are _easy_ to type, others are more complicated.

Like if I were a celebrity I doubt I'd get typed 2. Well, maybe. But no way in hell would anyone be able to collect a group of 2ish quotes from me. I think you could get there, I think you can uncover pretty much anyone's type, but it would take a lot of digging and _correct_ analysis. 

I think vibe typing is useful for this reason. People don't really leave trails of evidence to their type imo. Think the analysis is really worth it in any case, but on the whole my personal typing feelings have more to to with...vibe

For instance I was thinking about it yesterday, when I see this face my Two sensors go wild...))


















edit: though there's like a 50% chance the second guy is a Seven

likewise I think Sixes are easier to detect than prove


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Phoenix Virtue said:


> I think vibe typing is useful for this reason. People don't really leave trails of evidence to their type imo. Think the analysis is really worth it in any case, but on the whole my personal typing feelings have more to to with...vibe


I think vibe typing, or what I'd call intuitive typing, can be useful as a starting point. The biggest problem I have with it though is it requires a lot of experience becoming familiar with the vibes of each type before it begins to become accurate which can lead to a lot of mistyping when people are relatively new to the types. I also think it needs to be confirmed by something else.



Phoenix Virtue said:


> For instance I was thinking about it yesterday, when I see this face my Two sensors go wild...))


What are your two sensors saying when they see that face? Looks from the first picture like they're overloaded and in shock (mesmerized by what they're seeing and can't not look at it).:shocked:


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

enneathusiast said:


> I think vibe typing, or what I'd call intuitive typing, can be useful as a starting point. The biggest problem I have with it though is it requires a lot of experience becoming familiar with the vibes of each type before it begins to become accurate which can lead to a lot of mistyping when people are relatively new to the types. I also think it needs to be confirmed by something else.


No, I agree)


> What are your two sensors saying when they see that face? Looks from the first picture like they're overloaded and in shock (mesmerized by what they're seeing and can't not look at it).:shocked:


Just like 'I spy a 2'

Idk what that face is supposed to mean) I think I make it too)) Just some facial expression (something to do with eyes?) that says Two to me 

(though in some cases it might not, just an example)) seems to be a just concentrating-on-singing face, idk, there's some element there (hard to identify) that just says '2!' to me)

The context for the second was pretty neutral:






(It's Kelsey Grammar I consider a 2))

edit: but it's silly, it could literally just be eye shape


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Phoenix Virtue said:


> Just like 'I spy a 2'


Oh, I must've misunderstood. You see them both as type 2.

I thought the Kelsey Grammar face was looking at the second face in shock and you were the Kelsey Grammar face. That's why I said your Two sensors looked overloaded and in shock.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

enneathusiast said:


> Oh, I must've misunderstood. You see them both as type 2.
> 
> I thought the Kelsey Grammar face was looking at the second face in shock and you were the Kelsey Grammar face. That's why I said your Two sensors looked overloaded and in shock.


Oh, I see))
No)

Though I know little about the second guy and Seven seems equally likely as Two)) but that face, idk)

Sorry, this is too much altogether of this very small point of mine))


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

I saw vibe typing mentioned earlier. As far as that is concerned, I agree with one statement enneathusiast made. It can be useful as a starting point. I vibe-typed myself based on my loose understanding of the enneagram in the very beginning, and since then, I've had many close to me vibe type me as well for shits and giggles. I made the rounds, and I came to find that all but one or two types had been suggested as core for me. I know for sure that 9 has never been suggested. I can't remember for sure if anyone has ever suggested 4 for me, though it's a silly idea that I enjoyed poking at for a short time. I don't think I'm all that mysterious. I put a lot on the table, and people close to me and otherwise have interpreted my behaviors, and have decided which boxes they'd like to shove me in. Surely, I don't fit in ALL of those boxes at the core. Fitting in all of them would more or less ruin the point of putting me in a box to begin with. So what's my opinion on vibe typing? 


* *




Unless you're vibe typing yourself, the practice is pretty much as accurate and useful as a paper fortune teller. I think I'm going to go with the color purple and select number 1. Perhaps it will tell me what celebrity I'll end up marrying


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Hm I don't think I explained myself well.

I don't think people should be vibe typing themselves, how do you know what your vibe is?

Essentially you're the one who can figure out your Enneagram type. The truth of yourself is only really available within yourself. Obviously Enneagram is extremely influential and I do think it's possible to type others. Maybe more accurately than they can type themselves. But no, finding your own Enneagram type -- different can of worms. 

With other people though I think there are a _lot_ of factors that affect perceived type. Let's say there's a Three who really idolizes Sevens, maybe was raised around Sevens, has introduced all sorts of Seven elements into their personality - believes they share these core fears. Probably everyone will just think 'that Seven'. Sometimes these things are pretty transparent, but sometimes - I think your own shadow would realize your type, people can't hide their true colors all the time, the Three _will_ show through in the pattern of the personality. But it might be heavily masked.

With celebrities I think it's doubly so because they are rarely acting naturally; they don't present themselves so much as 'people' as 'celebrities', there's a kinda necessary image focus. A celebrity might have a public 'face' which resembles one type but there's no telling what their real type is. I do think it's necessary to look beyond what they actually say, but either their actions, how they say something (for instance a video interview I do consider more valuable than a print one). Of course for artists if they are trying to genuinely express themselves there is very likely to be some Enneagram leakage but even so I don't think...you'd have to be there for the creative process. But yeah if an artist is always writing songs with Eight themes, maybe signs of integration to Two, disintegration to Five, etc., if they seem like an Eight, say Eightish things, no reason to think they're not. 

But I think most of the really important information about people falls between the cracks - or gaps, if you will. Maybe doesn't get said aloud or written about, maybe does, but the grinding of the personality leaves dust behind, which is what I mean by 'vibe'. The shape isn't distinct but perhaps there is a distinctive color or flavor. I think this vibe is really useful for more than just vibe, I think the core of who people are is easier grasped at a diagonal, so I think vibe comes into that.

And no, I'm not saying that X facial expression = Two, that is silly, though I think there's some merit...people learn facial expressions from various sources and all sorts of things affect them, facial expressions are part of vibe but I wouldn't break it down into 'this eyebrow motion is Five', but maybe there is an eyebrow motion that occurs most naturally to Fives, more of a pattern than a rule.

What I meant by 'vibe-typing is important' is that it's as important to look at the dust of a personality, as the structure, which is often masked. I think there's value to it. In terms of debate of course looking for structure is important and that's where we can learn the patterns of types better, with more precision, having broader banks of references.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Phoenix Virtue said:


> Though I know little about the second guy and Seven seems equally likely as Two)) but that face, idk)


That's Pete Burns of the 1980s band Dead or Alive. He's notoriously addicted to plastic surgery. The picture on the right is closer to what he looks like today.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

I mean I think to be really, really good at Enneagram typing - it's not vibe, but that feeds into it - you'd have to recognize the 'codes' of the different personalities, the 'tells', be a personality Sherlock Holmes. But that process would require some intuitive jumps. Because some people just don't read literally like the type they are, until you know them really well.

So I guess that's where the vibe thing comes in.

But this thread was not about vibe-typing, it was about celebrities who are difficult to type)

I blame it generally on 'people are complicated' :laughing: Don't think it's a problem with the system, I guess. Some people are gonna be hard to figure out. If it were a physical system, say, face types, then people not fitting into one category or another would be a problem, but I don't see Enneagram as a category system, but an system about cores and essences, which will exist regardless of how difficult they are to spot.

Sorry for derailing.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

enneathusiast said:


> That's Pete Burns of the 1980s band Dead or Alive. He's notoriously addicted to plastic surgery. The picture on the right is closer to what he looks like today.


I know who he is) I've heard plastic surgery addiction connected to type Seven a lot. But obviously I can see image types (esp 2s and 3s - actually 4s too, with the 'trying to find the face I had before the world was made' deal, though I still see it as less likely) going down that rabbit hole. Seems like it can become a genuine addiction (which makes sense because so often the faces just become terrible and what can you do but try to fix them again) Quite sad in fact.

But yeah that was just the immediate thing that came to mind when trying to think about this facial expression) Which really could be nothing more than some eye shape thing :laughing: I have very few opinions about this person)


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

Phoenix Virtue said:


> Hm I don't think I explained myself well.
> 
> I don't think people should be vibe typing themselves, how do you know what your vibe is?
> 
> ...


FWIW, I wasn't shitting on your opinion or your experience... just sharing my own as you've shared yours. I'm interested in learning why you believe what you believe. I'm not 100% sure I get what you're trying to say here in this post, but then again, I've not slept yet. My brain function is sub-par at the moment. I just spent ten minutes laughing a gangsta cat I just created. I think I'll give this another read when I wake up. I look forward to having a conversation. Ta-ta for now


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Ace Face said:


> FWIW, I wasn't shitting on your opinion or your experience... just sharing my own as you've shared yours. I'm interested in learning why you believe what you believe. I'm not 100% sure I get what you're trying to say here in this post, but then again, I've not slept yet. My brain function is sub-par at the moment. I just spent ten minutes laughing a gangsta cat I just created. I think I'll give this another read when I wake up. I look forward to having a conversation. Ta-ta for now


Didn't take it that way, just seemed that my point had not properly travelled from my mind to this thread, so I took the opportunity to elaborate) Wasn't really directed at you, either, just sorta...inspired by your post)

I too must sleep before my brain will work properly; goodnight))


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## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

@enneathusiast first of all, excellent and interesting analysis 

I think the overwhelmingly biggest reason is because they're celebrities and you don't know them personally. 

The way I've come to think about is this (And this applies for enneagram and MBTI):
-- the real enneatype and MBTi is kind of like a pearl inside of a person. Its there, its real, its one of the 16/ 9 types, but a person's outer behavior can vary in a bajillion different ways, such that you may never be able to discern what the type actually is. 

(as for whether the enneagram/ MBTI is true; who freaking knows? It might be true, it might not be, but since we're not about to launch a major scientific study on it, we'll just have to take that topic off the table). 

When I come across someone I just can't type, i think to myself " they have one of these 16/ 9 types inside of them somewhere, but I may never know what it is, because I don't really know the person, I don't really know who they truly are."

Even when I feel very sure of someone's type, I keep in mind that it may be wrong, because peoples' behavior can vary so much. 

Obviously, people's behavior is not going to vary _that_ much from their type; but I just prefer to think of it that way, rather than expecting people to fit their type, because it keeps me much more open-minded as to who the person really is, and also much more humble (i.e. not thinking I know people better than they know themselves). 

I'm trying of trying to type people and trying to fit them into boxes; I prefer to think of people as being vastly unique, vastly different and able to differentiate, but also with these hidden pearls inside them that do fit one of the 16/9 types. Its just a healthier attitude to have about it all.


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## Brains (Jul 22, 2015)

I don't know why people keep trying to use talk show appearances as points in typing - they are, as a rule, some of the fakest shit you can get this side of politics. You want to type a celebrity, find a more frank, preferably long, 1-to-1 interview.


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