# Help me overcome my bias towards Fi



## ginnyisdacoolest (Dec 26, 2010)

I've clashed a few times with people who I suspect were Fi dominant. Sometimes I feel like it's all about tending to your own feelings first and other's second, and generally behaving childishly when it comes to emotions. 

However, I know this cannot always be the case. I obviously have a bias, and being the INTP that I am I seriously dislike seeing any kind of bias in myself. I don't know how many other people share this bias towards Fi users, but I could definitely use an insight into some different perspectives on the matter.

So I would love if I could get the perspectives of people who use Fi or know people who do, and reasons why it's not as bad as I think it is. Give me some examples of how Fi has helped people and done good in the world. I know these examples must exist, so roll up, roll up, take your shot at convincing a dominant Ti user that Fi really is a worthwhile trait.


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## susurration (Oct 22, 2009)

Perhaps reading Carl Jung's Fi description might help understand it more? 

I'm not sure whether you could argue that a functional perspective is either good or bad, worthwhile or not. It's a theoretical concept, however that might manifest in a person is varied. 

As a fi-dom, my immediate thoughts are that I wouldn't want to convince you of anything concerning goodness or whether it has worth, as i'd be too aware of both the pros and cons. I don't think fi is either a worthwhile or unworthwhile perspective, it just is. It doesn't make someone selfish, that is an individual persons responsibility. 

Sometimes the actions of an Fi person might seem selfish, when that wasn't intended. Would you like clarification in that regard? i'm not sure I feel comfortable trying to justify it as 'worthy' as I think that would be trying to put too much of a positive spin on it.


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## susurration (Oct 22, 2009)

I just want to clarify one thing about communication styles. I notice that some people seem to not like the way the Fi type might make "I feel" statements, and that may be interpreted as only looking out for your own feelings. On the contrary it's a way of communicating that attempts to express what that person feels without putting the blame or condemning others. This has been something in my experience, where I might say that "I feel that xyz" and that has been misinterpreted by others in the past as me trying to accuse people of something or that i'm solely considering my own feelings. I've read in literature that making "I" statements is more effective in communication than "you" statements, so it's not altogether a "self absorbed" way of thinking or communicating. Personally I look after my own feelings and do not believe I am here to "look after" others feelings as I believe that is co dependence and caretaking. Yes, I can be mightily self absorbed though, there's no denying that. My thoughts don't always carry across to my actions though, which does not bode well with Fe types, and that's understandable. I may spend time thinking about a person without their awareness and think extremely highly of them, and they'd never know, and I might never demonstrate it exhaustively. I'm not always thinking about me, though it may look like that in my actions. I actually spend a lot of time thinking about others, but I don't attempt to be a care taker though. I would find that a little belittling and not respectful of the dignity of a person to learn and grow on their own (which I would think is much better for that person).


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## NeedsNewNameNow (Dec 1, 2009)

Well one theory says we despise our lowest function, and for INTPs, that's Fi. Even though I seem to like Te and Ni and especially Se less.

I have some great INFP friends.. I really don't find their Fi that annoying. One way it can annoy Ti is when Fi sticks to principals that seem to make no sense or is counterproductive.. either to the person in question or the people around him/her. Or if it gets offended/hurt by a statement that Ti considered neutral. 




> Personally I look after my own feelings and do not believe I am here to "look after" others feelings as I believe that is co dependence and caretaking. Yes, I can be mightily self absorbed though, there's no denying that. My thoughts don't always carry across to my actions though, which does not bode well with Fe types, and that's understandable. I may spend time thinking about a person without their awareness and think extremely highly of them, and they'd never know, and I might never demonstrate it exhaustively.


I hear this alot from INFPs. I have a hard time understanding it.. I also think this is where the biggest problem came with me and an ex-INFP friend. We were close, but I would always sense a sort of indifference in her whether we talked or not. INTPs value equality in relationships. We hate to feel clingy so we aren't going to put more effort into one than the other person. So the more I detected indifference, the more distant I got. Eventually it would get to a point where she'd freak, either confront me, or get passive-aggressive, or both. She would complain about the way "I seemed", misreading my actions.. So two things from this.. 1) I felt like I shouldn't have to upset her to find out that I truly did matter, but it was bound to keep happening. 2) she was expecting from me what she apparently felt she didn't have to give.. She expected my words or actions to show that she mattered to me.

yeah-- so I see some self-centeredness there.. even though in general she doesn't come off as self-centered. Her perception of me was about how her feelings interpreted my actions, yet no consideration that maybe my actions were a reaction to hers? And I could not point this out without making her feel really bad. So it became that we couldn't patch things up and eventually she ended the friendship abruptly.

But then I see a contradiction in this among other INFPs, some of them seem to really care what other's a feeling and really try to please them, but do it in a way different than an Fe user


I'm not always thinking about me, though it may look like that in my actions. I actually spend a lot of time thinking about others, but I don't attempt to be a care taker though. I would find that a little belittling and not respectful of the dignity of a person to learn and grow on their own (which I would think is much better for that person).


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## Toru Okada (May 10, 2011)

Fi directs me to live with what is congruent to my being. It establishes personal principles. These can be selfish or unselfish (note that any given function doesn't indicate skill or an absolute directive). Selfishness/selflessness lies outside of cognitive functions, and not within any one in particular. 

Also, on "behaving childishly when it comes to emotions" isn't related to Fi. If anything, Fi should enable a person to be more aware of how their F-steering affects their environment in time. This is as they begin to relate their personal principles with external people and things, and see the big picture. The result would eventually be acceptance of others' preferences and principles and integration of their own. Fe would probably work backwards in that regard.


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## NeedsNewNameNow (Dec 1, 2009)

Admros said:


> Also, on "behaving childishly when it comes to emotions" isn't related to Fi. If anything, Fi should enable a person to be more aware of how their F-steering affects their environment in time. This is as they begin to relate their personal principles with external people and things, and see the big picture. Fe would probably work backwards in that regard.


From what I understand.. Fi itself, being introverted, doesn't understand how things affect the outside world. It has to work in tandem with Ne or Se to get past the "everything is about me and how I feel" that some Fi people display


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## Toru Okada (May 10, 2011)

NeedsNewNameNow said:


> From what I understand.. Fi itself, being introverted, doesn't understand how things affect the outside world. It has to work in tandem with Ne or Se to get past the "everything is about me and how I feel" that some Fi people display


That definitely makes sense. The same could probably be said for any J function.


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## Love Wins (Jul 18, 2011)

This is an interesting thread. I have a primary preference towards Fi and I'm trying to overcome my bias against Fe. This is because I always feel that extoverted feelers hold to certain standards that they believe are best for a group and often overlook the unique individual. They seem to me to be very "conformist" and group oriented. Introverted feelers look at people as individuals. They prefer not to conform and don't like to see others pushed into conforming. This is partly, I think, because just as the Ti function quickly sees inconsistencies in logic, Fi quickly sees inconsistencies in someone's expression of values. For example, they are quick to notice if someone says one thing and does another. Ethical values are important because they ARE. Not because a group says so. They are also usually quick to see if someone is being untruthful or manipulative. When I see a group being inconsistent, I have a hard time conforming. My brother is an INTP and I've noticed that he is quicker than me to see a logical inconsistency in someone's argument, but I am much quicker to see if someone is being truthful or not. In a sense, I am much better at sizing up someone and knowing exactly where they are coming from as a person and what their motives are. Here is a good description (I think, at least) of Fi:


It is often hard to assign words to the values used to make introverted Feeling judgments since they are often associated with images, feeling tones, and gut reactions more than words. As a cognitive process, it often serves as a filter for information that matches what is valued, wanted, or worth believing in. There can be a continual weighing of the situational worth or importance of everything and a patient balancing of the core issues of peace and conflict in life’s situations. We engage in the process of introverted Feeling when a value is compromised and we think, “Sometimes, some things just have to be said.” On the other hand, most of the time this process works “in private” and is expressed through actions. It helps us know when people are being fake or insincere or if they are basically good. It is like having an internal sense of the “essence” of a person or a project and reading fine distinctions among feeling tones. 

As an INTP, your 4th function is Fe. In the theory that assigns 8 functions per personality, Fe takes on your "Aspirational Role". And your Fi takes on the "Devilish Role": "The devilish role can be quite negative. Using the process that plays this role, we might become destructive of ourselves or others. Actions (or inactions) taken when we engage in the process that plays this role are often regretted later. Usually, we are unaware of how to use the process that fills this role and feel like it just erupts and imposes itself rather unconsciously. Yet when we are open to the process that plays the devilish role, it becomes transformative. It gives us the impetus to create something new—to make lemonade out of lemons, rather than lament their sourness." This could potentially explain why you have the opinion of Fi that you do. But Fi in someone who has it as a primary function is used much differently. It takes on a much different role. It is usually much more developed and understood on a much deeper level. It may also be helpful to know that Ti is the "Devilish" function for us intuitive feelers and that Fe is our "Opposing" role (we naturally resist it). 

I believe that Ti and Fi are equal in status. They are just good in different areas. Ti is better at analyzing and understanding facts. Fi is better at analyzing and understanding people. Sorry this post is so long. My brain doesn't work in a very straightforward, orderly way. It goes on crazy tangents that are hard to control and organize into words lol.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

NeedsNewNameNow said:


> From what I understand.. Fi itself, being introverted, doesn't understand how things affect the outside world. It has to work in tandem with Ne or Se to get past the "everything is about me and how I feel" that some Fi people display


Not necessarily. Every function is imbalanced on its own, as people do not boil down to one function, but each still has its own positive potential.

Fi is a mindset which focuses on evaluating according to an inner ideal. The inner ideal is NOT simply a bunch of arbitrary personal likes & dislikes based on emotional reactions. Since Fi is rational, these ideal concepts are formed by reasoning on what is perfect, necessary, important, moral, and beautiful in relation to being human. That's in relation to ALL humans, not just the Fi individual. The way Fi reasons is not that different from Ti, as far as forming concepts which amount to judgments of truth via reasoning; Feeling just judges from the standpoint of value (see my sig).

The Fi individual simply uses their inner landscape as a sort of testing ground for these concepts. Their own personal feeling is simply an extension of a core concept, a feeling that reflects something inherent in all people. Really, basic concepts we accept as being good in themselves, or "self-evident", are the kind of fundamental ideas Fi-doms build ideals on, things like "peace" & "love" & "freedom". The individuial Fi-dom simply interprets what these ideas mean & how to meet them very differently, which is why some will appear noble & others selfish. Sometimes Ne/Se perception is actually what makes the Fi-dom selfish, not necessarily Fi self-absorption.

The benefits of developing these ideals disconnected from external measures is they remain "pure" in a way. This allows the Fi-dom to stand up in the name of Goodness, when everyone else has deviated from it, because they don't define what is good based on consensus. It can actually make them the voice of reason among mob mentality. 

From Jung:


> It is continually seeking an image which has no existence in reality, but which it has seen in a kind of vision.
> 
> The primordial images are, of course, just as much ideas as feelings. Fundamental ideas, ideas like God, freedom, and immortality, are just as much feeling-values as they are significant ideas. Everything, therefore, that we have said about introverted thinking is equally true of introverted feeling, only here everything is felt while there it was thought.
> 
> ....their feelings are intensive rather than extensive. They develop in depth. While an extensive feeling of sympathy (Fe) can express itself in appropriate words and deeds, and thus quickly gets back to normal again, an intensive sympathy, being shut off from every means of expression, gains a passionate depth.... It may, perhaps, break out in some extravagant form, leading to some astounding act of an almost heroic character...


Van Der Hoop highlights on Fi:
- Tries to determine what is right in regards to people & relationships, how to make life beautiful & well-balanced
- The standard by which they judge their own behavior is an inner moral law
- Remarkably individual, which comes to light when either making a real connection with someone or standing up for a threatened ideal
- Strong sense of moral duty (based on inner convictions)
- All the riches of the mind will be developed into a passion which is inwardly directed towards the highest ideals of harmony
- Emanate calm & security, having a great but indirect influence on the environment, especially as parents over their children
- Keep respect for morals alive in the world


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## NeedsNewNameNow (Dec 1, 2009)

OrangeAppled said:


> Not necessarily. Every function is imbalanced on its own, as people do not boil down to one function, but each still has its own positive potential.
> 
> Fi is a mindset which focuses on evaluating according to an inner ideal. The inner ideal is NOT simply a bunch of arbitrary personal likes & dislikes based on emotional reactions. Since Fi is rational, these ideal concepts are formed by reasoning on what is perfect, necessary, important, moral, and beautiful in relation to being human. That's in relation to ALL humans, not just the Fi individual. The way Fi reasons is not that different from Ti, as far as forming concepts which amount to judgments of truth via reasoning; Feeling just judges from the standpoint of value (see my sig).
> 
> ...


But the general idea is that Fi needs the data brought in by the extroverted perceiving function it's paired with to work the way you described.. the reason dom-ter loops are said to be unhealthy is. This isn't my theory and I probably am not paraphrasing it well, but the idea is that to be a healthy individual, both your top introverted and extroverted functions need to be developed for balance.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

NeedsNewNameNow said:


> But the general idea is that Fi needs the data brought in by the extroverted perceiving function it's paired with to work the way you described.. the reason dom-ter loops are said to be unhealthy is. This isn't my theory and I probably am not paraphrasing it well, but the idea is that to be a healthy individual, both your top introverted and extroverted functions need to be developed for balance.


Yeees....



orangeappled said:


> Every function is imbalanced on its own, as people do not boil down to one function, but each still has its own positive potential.


What I quoted is about Fi as a function & how it affects a mindset. I'm pointing out the positives of the function, what it brings to the table, so to speak. Ne & Se may be needed for balance of any Ji-dom, but it's Fi which brings in those aspects I quoted, because Ti certainly has a different effect.


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## Lady Lullaby (Jun 7, 2010)

ginnyisdacoolest said:


> I've clashed a few times with people who I suspect were Fi dominant. Sometimes I feel like it's all about tending to your own feelings first and other's second, and generally behaving childishly when it comes to emotions.
> 
> However, I know this cannot always be the case. I obviously have a bias, and being the INTP that I am I seriously dislike seeing any kind of bias in myself. I don't know how many other people share this bias towards Fi users, but I could definitely use an insight into some different perspectives on the matter.
> 
> So I would love if I could get the perspectives of people who use Fi or know people who do, and reasons why it's not as bad as I think it is. Give me some examples of how Fi has helped people and done good in the world. I know these examples must exist, so roll up, roll up, take your shot at convincing a dominant Ti user that Fi really is a worthwhile trait.


I have an INFP brother and an ISFP daughter (only 5 years...) But they are really sweet people. They don't struggle with the codependency I've seen in my ISFJ mom, ESFJ sister, and ENFJ brother (and sadly I admit myself at times.) They (the Fi-doms in my life) are so in-tune with their own values that their main struggle in life is figuring out a way to live in a way that corresponds with these values. This is highly difficult in an imperfect world and their ideals are such that they suffer greatly when they're out of sync with these internal core values. I admire their integrity.

Saying Fi-doms behave childishly when it comes to emotions is probably too broad a statement. I'm pretty sure everyone is guilty of behaving childishly when it comes to some emotions at some point in their lives. We're all human and the feeling-judging functions are not responsible for that.

So that's my take...:wink:


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## Knight_In_Rags (Mar 11, 2012)

ginnyisdacoolest said:


> I've clashed a few times with people who I suspect were Fi dominant. Sometimes I feel like it's all about tending to your own feelings first and other's second, and generally behaving childishly when it comes to emotions.
> 
> So I would love if I could get the perspectives of people who use Fi or know people who do, and reasons why it's not as bad as I think it is. Give me some examples of how Fi has helped people and done good in the world. I know these examples must exist, so roll up, roll up, take your shot at convincing a dominant Ti user that Fi really is a worthwhile trait.


Fi is all about values and what you value in life. What is important to you? Is it your family? Your job that you love? Or your goal of being that altruistic person who is consistent and reliable? Fi is what tells you to follow your own passions when it comes to choosing a career instead of sticking to what your parents want you to be, or perhaps vice versa. Fi also causes us to care about people and it promotes harmony in relationships. Furthermore, Fi causes deference and sensitivity, and this is why it arouses liking and acceptance in people. Every message literature or stories have to offer involve whatever Fi incorporates; doesn't matter if it's how you should join a cause, how sacrifice is noble and will ultimately improve everything, or how everyone has a value. Musicians who use Fi are the ones who write songs that go against suicide instead of mindless songs about clubbing, getting drunk, and getting laid. They are the ones who care about how their work and actions will affect/influence their fans more than their own fame. Is this enough to convince you that it has at least some worth? lol


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Well, it's not at all surprising that a Ti dominant might have biases toward dominant Fi, since that function basically is everything that a Ti dominant would reject in their ego. But, since the functions are the reflections of the individuals who harbor them, most of this bias would be toward some element of the individual (not everything about them either, since people aren't their functions - they just tend to appeal to them in variously detectable or undetectable capacities), so frankly, don't worry about it. Just try to get good at understanding their game to get more accustomed to it, or just stop hanging around the person altogether if it's that bothersome (and no to the OP, being a Ti dominant does not make you unbiased - quite the contrary, so it's likely that you're projecting a lot of your own biases and baggage onto this person). I mean, I do get where the OP's coming from based on some I know, which might reflect thinking issues for the most part in the Fi dominant, since the dominant function is a defense against the inferior, so someone with a lot of baggage around the inferior might get overly egotistical around the dominant, although I'm certainly not qualified to jump to any conclusions about this person or the situation (let alone, the sincerity of the OP). For these types to see each other as hard to understand probably isn't unnatural, at least at a motivational level (this is like me and Si dominants).


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## uncertain (May 26, 2012)

A Fi-dom here.

I think I am most familiar and identified with Fi among the 8 functions. The valuable thing that lies in Fi is sticking to one's personal value. Strong Fi can be the most determined and stubborn people in the world because they only do what they believe to be right or wrong. If I strongly believe that I should be a social worker to fight for the poor, probably no one can change my mind even if situation is difficult for me.

We tend to be independent from majority opinion on anything that involve values and morality. Not that we always hold different opinion from the majority but we tend to analyze first before we decide to believe in certain things or act in a certain way.

Fi dom need to develop his other functions to build a powerful Fi-style personality. Most would have no difficulty developing their aux, Se/Ne.

Yes we are in touch with our own feeling and wants. We strive to be honest to ourselves and to stick with personal value. I think sticking to my belief and be true to myself and our feelings is what make me authentic and happy. It sounds like we tend to behave childishly, but this does not have so much to do with type. Every one learn to behave and to concern about others' feeling when he speak. I tend to be careful about my words and not to hurt the others. Fi-dom ISFP and INFP are known to be loyal and caring toward their close friends, and also for their easy-going quality. I'm not always thinking about the others, such as what they need on a daily basis. Sometimes still I would think about the others but usually I don't do anything about it.

I think being childish is defined by different things, which I can't make a summary of at this moment. Can you list the qualities of a childish person that you have in mind? That will help me to further explain how we react or deal with the issues from an Fi-dom perspective


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## Ellis Bell (Mar 16, 2012)

ginnyisdacoolest said:


> I've clashed a few times with people who I suspect were Fi dominant. Sometimes I feel like it's all about tending to your own feelings first and other's second, and generally behaving childishly when it comes to emotions.
> 
> However, I know this cannot always be the case. I obviously have a bias, and being the INTP that I am I seriously dislike seeing any kind of bias in myself. I don't know how many other people share this bias towards Fi users, but I could definitely use an insight into some different perspectives on the matter.
> 
> So I would love if I could get the perspectives of people who use Fi or know people who do, and reasons why it's not as bad as I think it is. Give me some examples of how Fi has helped people and done good in the world. I know these examples must exist, so roll up, roll up, take your shot at convincing a dominant Ti user that Fi really is a worthwhile trait.


Not to deal in semantics or anything, but wouldn't it be "bias against?" "Bias for" would indicate some kind of partiality.

ETA: Oooh, my 600th post, lookie!


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## uncertain (May 26, 2012)

susurration said:


> I just want to clarify one thing about communication styles. I notice that some people seem to not like the way the Fi type might make "I feel" statements, and that may be interpreted as only looking out for your own feelings. On the contrary it's a way of communicating that attempts to express what that person feels without putting the blame or condemning others.


Exactly what I feel, oh no, think. I use "I feel" because I don't want to sound like I'm imposing my opinion on others, and I'm trying to be humble. It's still different from "I think" in the way that the opinion that followed "I feel" is kind of vague/ hard to explain/ weak opinion/ it's really a feeling--which is rarely the case on the forum. "I think" is sometimes too assertive for me as a statement so I don't use it unless I'm sure that it's absolutely logically valid or objective (I think a lot of everyone's thoughts are somewhat subjective) or I have a really strong point to make.



susurration said:


> I may spend time thinking about a person without their awareness and think extremely highly of them, and they'd never know, and I might never demonstrate it exhaustively. I'm not always thinking about me, though it may look like that in my actions. I actually spend a lot of time thinking about others, but I don't attempt to be a care taker though. I would find that a little belittling and not respectful of the dignity of a person to learn and grow on their own (which I would think is much better for that person).


I do this too, and I agree with you about your reason for not being a caretaker.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Love Wins said:


> This is an interesting thread. I have a primary preference towards Fi and I'm trying to overcome my bias against Fe. This is because I always feel that extoverted feelers hold to certain standards that they believe are best for a group and often overlook the unique individual. They seem to me to be very "conformist" and group oriented. Introverted feelers look at people as individuals. They prefer not to conform and don't like to see others pushed into conforming. This is partly, I think, because just as the Ti function quickly sees inconsistencies in logic, Fi quickly sees inconsistencies in someone's expression of values. For example, they are quick to notice if someone says one thing and does another. Ethical values are important because they ARE. Not because a group says so. They are also usually quick to see if someone is being untruthful or manipulative. When I see a group being inconsistent, I have a hard time conforming. My brother is an INTP and I've noticed that he is quicker than me to see a logical inconsistency in someone's argument, but I am much quicker to see if someone is being truthful or not. In a sense, I am much better at sizing up someone and knowing exactly where they are coming from as a person and what their motives are. Here is a good description (I think, at least) of Fi:
> 
> 
> It is often hard to assign words to the values used to make introverted Feeling judgments since they are often associated with images, feeling tones, and gut reactions more than words. As a cognitive process, it often serves as a filter for information that matches what is valued, wanted, or worth believing in. There can be a continual weighing of the situational worth or importance of everything and a patient balancing of the core issues of peace and conflict in life’s situations. We engage in the process of introverted Feeling when a value is compromised and we think, “Sometimes, some things just have to be said.” On the other hand, most of the time this process works “in private” and is expressed through actions. It helps us know when people are being fake or insincere or if they are basically good. It is like having an internal sense of the “essence” of a person or a project and reading fine distinctions among feeling tones.
> ...


This is referrring to Beebee, correct? I have to say I somewhat disagree with this, and this is part why I am hesitant to using his model in general. I find it... too strict. Much too Te for my liking. I see Fi and Ti, when used properly in any individual, Fi dom or Ti dom alike, as being incredibly complimentary to each other. While I definitely think I am more able to spot logical inconsistencies, ethical inconsistencies definitely matter a lot to me. What you say you should do. It's just _that_ important. If you don't, you are clearly not true to yourself and I see that as akin to self-betrayal. This is part why I think I distrust very strong Fe in others, because I see it as very dangerous to my Fi think, since Fe does not operate this way. Fe has no sense of self in the sense Fi does, because to Fe, the self is located in the objects, making the objects subjects. 

Also, does this relate to socioincs to some degree? This is my test result for example:


YouIdeal DualFunction Information ElementRelative StrengthRelative ValueInformation ElementRelative StrengthRelative Value 

 Leading
Creative
Role
Vulnerable

Suggestive
Mobilizing
Ignoring
Demonstrative
  Ti
Ne
Fi
Se

Fe
Si
Te
Ni
 34%
41%
16%
9%

16%
9%
34%
41%
 34%
41%
16%
9%

34%
41%
16%
9%
 Fe
Si
Te
Ni

Ti
Ne
Fi
Se
 34%
41%
16%
9%

16%
9%
34%
41%
 34%
41%
16%
9%

34%
41%
16%
9%


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## Navi (Jul 8, 2012)

ginnyisdacoolest said:


> I've clashed a few times with people who I suspect were Fi dominant. Sometimes I feel like it's all about tending to your own feelings first and other's second, and generally behaving childishly when it comes to emotions.
> 
> However, I know this cannot always be the case. I obviously have a bias, and being the INTP that I am I seriously dislike seeing any kind of bias in myself. I don't know how many other people share this bias towards Fi users, but I could definitely use an insight into some different perspectives on the matter.
> 
> So I would love if I could get the perspectives of people who use Fi or know people who do, and reasons why it's not as bad as I think it is. Give me some examples of how Fi has helped people and done good in the world. I know these examples must exist, so roll up, roll up, take your shot at convincing a dominant Ti user that Fi really is a worthwhile trait.


I'm an INTP. 
Though I haven't interacted with many Fi-doms (in real life, at least); I do like Fi-users.
Especially in the case of a relationship, I believe I would prefer Fi in a man than Fe. I've noticed that NFPs (*coughcough @_Paradox1987_ coughcough*) tend to keep me in check, when I pick up emotions and don't know what to make of it/do with it (damn you inferior Fe!) 

I recommend you read more about Fi and Carl Jung's descriptions and keep your Ne's sense of wonder open. Don't be afraid to experiment around here.
Say, you could probably also try talking to the nice xNFPs and xSFPs around here. The experience is also pretty good for your Si. 



NeedsNewNameNow said:


> *Well one theory says we despise our lowest function, and for INTPs, that's Fi. Even though I seem to like Te and Ni and especially Se less.*
> 
> I have some great INFP friends.. I really don't find their Fi that annoying. One way it can annoy Ti is when Fi sticks to principals that seem to make no sense or is counterproductive.. either to the person in question or the people around him/her. Or if it gets offended/hurt by a statement that Ti considered neutral.


Also, this. Especially the part in bold. Though I'm fine with Ni (and to an extent, Te)...I definitely have a hard time with Se. Even more so while in a Ti-Si loop.


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## MyNameIsTooLon (Apr 28, 2012)

ginnyisdacoolest said:


> I've clashed a few times with people who I suspect were Fi dominant. Sometimes I feel like it's all about tending to your own feelings first and other's second, and generally behaving childishly when it comes to emotions.
> 
> However, I know this cannot always be the case. I obviously have a bias, and being the INTP that I am I seriously dislike seeing any kind of bias in myself. I don't know how many other people share this bias towards Fi users, but I could definitely use an insight into some different perspectives on the matter.
> 
> So I would love if I could get the perspectives of people who use Fi or know people who do, and reasons why it's not as bad as I think it is. Give me some examples of how Fi has helped people and done good in the world. I know these examples must exist, so roll up, roll up, take your shot at convincing a dominant Ti user that Fi really is a worthwhile trait.


When everyone else is making fun of someone/something and you're the only one who stands up for them. 

When everyone else does something "immoral" and you call them out on their bs.



I feel frustrated towards Fe users too because they often will do things that they feel is "wrong" just to please others.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

MyNameIsTooLon said:


> When everyone else is making fun of someone/something and you're the only one who stands up for them.
> 
> When everyone else does something "immoral" and you call them out on their bs.


When you think about it, perhaps the Fe users do this because their own feelings on the matter might be to hard to adapt to the situation without getting innappropriate (since they tend to be more repressed in the theory, as whenever one preference is habituated, the other is repressed and thus, rather unpredictable to the person). I see where you're coming from with the frustration though, as an Fi type myself. I guess sometimes, this phenomenon is the case with everyone, where the more unconscious side of you might want to do one thing, but you consciously don't trust that you'll be able to handle it, so you have to stick with what comes most naturally to you to get by. Frankly, I think that's what this stuff is all about on a very fundamental level. I think this happens to me in the Fe department, where sometimes, I'd ideally love to objectively present my feelings to someone or about something, etc. at certain times (although most of the time, I much prefer introverting feelings), but it just doesn't always come easily, nor does it feel rewarding to go against my own preferred feeling methods to do this quite often, if I don't see how it connects to anything I care about on a personal level, no matter how unrelated to the topic at hand (it often doesn't feel like me, so maybe insincere, and thus, something I might project onto Fe types - frankly, I think I do alot, but now that I understand them better motivationally from studying this stuff, this issue seems to be subsiding, amazingly).


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

ginnyisdacoolest said:


> I've clashed a few times with people who I suspect were Fi dominant. Sometimes I feel like it's all about tending to your own feelings first and other's second, and generally behaving childishly when it comes to emotions.
> 
> However, I know this cannot always be the case. I obviously have a bias, and being the INTP that I am I seriously dislike seeing any kind of bias in myself. I don't know how many other people share this bias towards Fi users, but I could definitely use an insight into some different perspectives on the matter.
> 
> So I would love if I could get the perspectives of people who use Fi or know people who do, and reasons why it's not as bad as I think it is. Give me some examples of how Fi has helped people and done good in the world. I know these examples must exist, so roll up, roll up, take your shot at convincing a dominant Ti user that Fi really is a worthwhile trait.


hmmm
I hate to disappoint you, but partly you are right...
It is about how everything else relates to the self.

Fi doesn't care about the group unless there is an emotional attachment to it.
Fi doesn't do anything for the outside world unless it is guided by some exroverted function to do it.
So Fi alone will not try be responsible for any grand good gestures of good in the world.

Still every time two humans genuinely connect there is Fi for you.
You could say that Fi's gift to the world is keeping it from being shallow and only for appearances.
Without it life would be like an neverending anime intro, 
with neverending tea rituals and whatever other naturally would follow. XD

Also without Fi there would be no Te either, so goalcenteredness and productivity would go byebye.
It would be a miracle if we even made it to the dark ages.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

@ginnyisdacoolest

*What it is:* * Fi is just a function and it leads to:* personal ethics (right and wrong), values, empathy, artistic sense, mercy, morality, an ability to detect what is untrue or fake, to grasp the essence of a person, a work of art, a situation, action etc.

*What it is not:* feelings and being emotional.

By its nature Fi is revolutionary, just like Ti, because neither of the 2 functions conforms to reality. They are all about the ideal. 

William Shakespeare was a Fi dom for example. In my experience T users are the ones who lose control of their emotions, because they don't know how to deal with them. I advise looking at INTP stress reaction and how inferior Fe manifests.

Its easier to understand and handle emotions being an F dom, simply because of the way Fi works to understand things. Through feeling what it is.

Under pressure and stress Fi doms tend to become cold, hard and critical, highly logical and may feel the need to organize and clean their surroundings. Si-Te.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

The extent to which inferior F relates to emotional control can be reduced to a correlation, but not a causation (so, there's nothing wrong with @Rim's point, but I'd just like to clear this concept up, since there tend to be soooo many misconceptions about the correlations of emotion and feeling). This isn't to say that inferior F types are more emotional than the average person (no type is), but the extent to which they invest personal control in the presentation of their feelings is often minimalistic, so this may correlate to tendencies toward coming off as rocky, but really only on a negative level (e.g. exploding from anger, etc.). After all, no one is rough by nature around positivity - that's just obvious (people tend to be more dishonest when feeling positively than negatively). I mean, it's perfectly possible for say, an ISFJ, to come off as even rockier in the emotional rationalization department, but if this is the case, it might reflect an unconscious F function coming out (so, they'd be even worse off in the Fi department than say, a Te dominant, since their Fi resides in the unconscious, unlike Te dominants, so they'd probably be under some very high pressure). It's all about ego investment - there's a tendency for inferior F types to look immature in the evaluation department, usually largely because they truly don't care about how they represent themselves through evaluation (their dominant T preference compensates pretty largely for this). It's not like a defect - it's all a matter of personal choice (and there are probably billions of different ways an "inferior function" can be considered inferior relative to any given person - it doesn't have to be particularly, jaw-droppingly bad, but as long as a person has denial-like tendencies around it or tends to repress it in favor of a dominant to a clear extent (e.g. not take whatever the inferior entails (usually self-control at the very least) very seriously, such as evaluation , there you have it. Some people might look very honest and authentic around the inferior as well - it can work to people's advantages, but the people often don't realize it (or if they do, they still tend to not really see personal worth into it or might downplay it, view it as mere fun and nothing more, etc.). In privacy, I would venture to bet that people can suspend what they presume to be consciously rationalized aspects of their type easily and just rationalize around some function like anyone else at times (that's the point of this stuff in relation to persona that Jung explored, really). Types don't speak for people. People speak for their types.


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## Type B (Nov 9, 2011)

ginnyisdacoolest said:


> I've clashed a few times with people who I suspect were Fi dominant. Sometimes I feel like it's all about tending to your own feelings first and other's second, and generally behaving childishly when it comes to emotions.
> 
> However, I know this cannot always be the case. I obviously have a bias, and being the INTP that I am I seriously dislike seeing any kind of bias in myself. I don't know how many other people share this bias towards Fi users, but I could definitely use an insight into some different perspectives on the matter.
> 
> So I would love if I could get the perspectives of people who use Fi or know people who do, and reasons why it's not as bad as I think it is. Give me some examples of how Fi has helped people and done good in the world. I know these examples must exist, so roll up, roll up, take your shot at convincing a dominant Ti user that Fi really is a worthwhile trait.


Hmm... The title says "help me overcome my bias", yet towards the end, you make it sound like you want Fi users to convince you that Fi "aint so bad after all." Why don't you try and get over the bias yourself. Learn to be more tolerant an accepting. Not everyone thinks like you. And I am only going to give you an example of myself, not what Fi has done for the world, because seriously, I'm not going to think about Fi that much right now. I'd have to go to sleep soon.

I don't know about other Fi users here who claim that emotions are all about "ME, ME, ME!" but I'm not like that. I pick up on the emotions of others, or of the group. Sometimes I do what others want just to make THEM happy, while I just "suck it up" and try to make the best of the situation.

I literally FEEL everything first, even though my thinking sometimes goes hand and hand with that. My thoughts are colored by my emotions, or the emotional vibe I pick up at the time. Everything is subjective and personal. But for me, it's better than being a stone cold thinker. I wouldn't have it any other way. I know logic and rationality and practicality have their place in the world. I also find them boring, though necessary. Those traits make you very efficient, but not much else. I am actually pretty logical and practical, but sometimes, to me, that's just no fun.

My communication is poor, but being that I feel everything so deeply, when others are in need, I kind of share their pain. I sympathize with them, and go through it with them, at lest for the time that I am there. To me, this is _part_ of what Fi is all about. 

My husband is an INTP, so I know the way you "Thinkers" can be. He's also a pretty emotional person however. I think that stems from the life he's lived. It's made him a more feeling kind of person over time. I'm glad because if that wasn't the case, we probably wouldn't be together.

Later


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Type B said:


> Hmm... The title says "help me overcome my bias", yet towards the end, you make it sound like you want Fi users to convince you that Fi "aint so bad after all." Why don't you try and get over the bias yourself. Learn to be more tolerant an accepting. Not everyone thinks like you. And I am only going to give you an example of myself, not what Fi has done for the world, because seriously, I'm not going to think about Fi that much right now. I'd have to go to sleep soon.
> 
> I don't know about other Fi users here who claim that emotions are all about "ME, ME, ME!" but I'm not like that. I pick up on the emotions of others, or of the group. Sometimes I do what others want just to make THEM happy, while I just "suck it up" and try to make the best of the situation.
> 
> ...


You're no better than the OP with the biases, frankly, so your efforts are fruitless (your stereotyping of T types is actually a lot more hideous than his stereotyping of Fi types, which was merely observational, not dumb stereotypes about "robotic thinking"). Also, for the final time, emotions aren't the feeling function - the feeling function to Jung was merely the way people psychologically interface with emotions, motivations, personal interpretations from experience, any kind of personal content and evaluate it - it has nothing to do with being emotions themselves (or you being some extra special person who cares more deeply for strangers than the average person - this can easily be a correlation, or might have nothing to do with your preference at all - 50/50 - actually, you can be any type who feels this way, but if you're an F dominant, you're more likely to play it up toward your ego, so really, you'd be deluding yourself to consider this pure and selfless, not that there's anything wrong with it either, but it's not a matter of some types have this quality while others don't - it's more like, all can, but some play it up toward themselves on an ego identity formation level), or being a fun, colorful person. If you think thinking is all about efficiency, then frankly, I'm very scared for you.


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## Type B (Nov 9, 2011)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> You're no better than the OP with the biases, frankly, so your efforts are fruitless (your stereotyping of T types is actually a lot more hideous than his stereotyping of Fi types, which was merely observational, not dumb stereotypes about "robotic thinking"). Also, for the final time, emotions aren't the feeling function - the feeling function to Jung was merely the way people psychologically interface with emotions, motivations, personal interpretations from experience, any kind of personal content and evaluate it - it has nothing to do with being emotions themselves (or you being some extra special person who cares more deeply for strangers than the average person - this can easily be a correlation, or might have nothing to do with your preference at all - 50/50 - actually, you can be any type who feels this way, but if you're an F dominant, you're more likely to play it up toward your ego, so really, you'd be deluding yourself to consider this pure and selfless, not that there's anything wrong with it either, but it's not a matter of some types have this quality while others don't - it's more like, all can, but some play it up toward themselves on an ego identity formation level), or being a fun, colorful person. If you think thinking is all about efficiency, then frankly, I'm very scared for you.


Oops! 

I'm not as bad as all that really. Allow me to explain.

When I said that whole "stone cold thinkers" remark, I had in my mind some memories of individuals from my past who were just that. Very logical, rational, analytical. On top of that, everything was a means to an end (including people). Everything had to make sense. These people were not pleasant to work with and when it came to emotions and feelings there seemed to be nothing there. They very much fit the profile of "robotic thinkers", and at the time when I posted my previous comment I was thinking of how much I would not want to be like that. 

I don't think all T types are like this though. In fact, all of my friends are either T doms or N doms. Seriously, in real life I have no friends that are sensors or feelers. But we get along anyway. I appreciate their view of things. They see things I don't see, and vice versa. Also I'm married to a "Thinker" (this time by "thinker" I mean INTP). I appreciate his ability to think and analyze and rationalize. No bias there. And yes, I do know that thinkers have feelings. And a couple of my T friends also have artistic abilities, which I do not possess. So I know T's can be much more than just thinkers.

I don't think I'm "extra special". I don't think too highly of myself really, but that's neither here nor there. I know Fi is about values, and all that. I think I said what I did because personally, I think Fi sometimes gets a bad rap. Supposedly Fi doms do not always notice other peoples feelings, nor do they do things if it doesn't align with a value, and for me that isn't always true. I can be aloof to what a person is saying, but not to how they feel. Sounds weird but it's true. I sort of get a vibe about how a person is feeling right then and there. Also, there are times I refrain from speaking up because I don't want to cause trouble. Defending my value isn't worth getting into an argument, etc. Also Fi is supposed to be practical. Well, to me, practical is sometimes boring. I do plenty of impractical things for the fun factor. Finally, the OP mentioned that Fi tends to it's own feelings first and then the feelings of others. A lot of times, this is not true for me. Very often will I do something, and put myself out, because it makes someone else happy, or because I take someone else's feelings into consideration first and then shove mine aside until later. This is not me trying to sound all high and mighty. I'm just giving a small description of myself. I think I wanted to clarify that in my previous post and I either didn't do a good job of that, or didn't do it at all. 

I should never post when I'm feeling THAT exhausted.

As for the OP's post, I don't know really what to make of it right now. Seems like he expects to overcome his bias only if Fi can be shown to have done good for others or for the world and others. That's what it sounded like to me. If that's the case, I don't know if he's going to get over his bias or not. There is more to my thinking regarding his post than what I'm saying. I just can't find the words right now..... 

Again I'm tired so I hope this made sense and clarified some things.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

@Type B

You're forgiven. Frankly, my beliefs in so much of this stuff have been going down the drain one-by-one recently, so I've been a bit snappy lately (it's like overcoming cognitive dissonance - a bit painful and irritating). I can understand your Fi pet-peeves - it's brutally misunderstood, indeed (I was largely clarifying it on this premise as well).


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

editing


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

I'm not sure if you have a bias, it sounds more like you are just angry. Gl


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

To really overcome such a bias, you'd have to "live" this mentality yourself and pretty much learn to put up with it. Otherwise, I don't know how relevant your issues are to real Fi bias.


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## mirrorghost (Sep 18, 2012)

my mother is an INTJ and i am an INFP. we have clashed in the past, but get along better now. when i was younger, i thought of her as cold and unemotional and she thought of me as too sensitive and dramatic. we have both read up on MBTI and have a better understanding of each other now. i know she has feelings, she just (in her words) "doesn't feel the need to express them." i don't personally _relate_ to that but i can accept it for what it is. plus i'm older now, so it makes more sense than it did when i was a teenager.

i honestly think Fi is extremely important in a world, like a "checks and balances" for society. i think a lot of people who feel deeply about human or animal rights and feel it in their heart to join, start or support organizations for these issues could possibly be dominated by Fi. i just visited farm sanctuary in northern california last week. the very idea of forming a farm sanctuary feels Fi to me.

as for Fi on a personal level, i've been told i give good advice a lot. i've been told i've brought people around to how they were really feeling by talking it through with them because maybe they had trouble accessing their true feelings or were afraid of them. i think of the saying "there is strength in vulnerability" as very Fi. maybe a Ti wouldn't value any of this though, i'm really not sure!


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## anagrams (Jun 9, 2010)

This is one of my favorite snippets from the introverted feeling section in Lenore Thomson's Personality Types:



> Elvis Presley, for example, illustrates a classic ISFP perspective, in which outward expression is determined by one's concrete interests and experience.
> 
> By the time he was eighteen, Presley had absorbed as many forms of music as existed around him - blues, gospel, hillbilly, pop - but he drew no formal distinctions between them, and had no Extraverted Judgments about the "slots" American society had determined for them. All he saw was what was "good" and what wasn't. The consistency of his Judgment unified those influences into a sound that changed the direction of popular music - and forced people to recognize some of the racial and social barriers in the music business.
> 
> It should be emphasized, in this respect, that ISFP's who use their subjective experience to focus on what is unconditional in human nature don't necessarily make art that coincides with social prescriptions for "good" behavior. They're more likely to do as Elvis did - touch on some vital human principle that society has attempted to isolate as a class or racial problem.


As for the OP, I am not sure one can isolate "tending to your own feelings first and other's second, and generally behaving childishly when it comes to emotions" as a specific Fi issue. I have seen that kind of behavior in all types. 

I agree that the Inferior function might have a role here. Usually I am not easily offended. But, if someone is really rubbing me the wrong way (and they happen to be someone that I can't ignore), and I am honest with myself, I find that this is what seems to be going on: "According to Jung, the shadow, in being instinctive and irrational, is prone to projection: turning a personal inferiority into a perceived moral deficiency in someone else. " To give some credit, it seems that the OP is an attempt to address this.

I found that quote here Shadow (psychology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ,but it is an idea that I have run into before I knew that Jung had a version of it too. It is the idea that the undesirable behavior we see in others can often be used as a mirror that reflects our own inner struggles and attitudes right back at us. Reading up on my inferior function and how it acts out was pretty revealing to me. Recognizing the triggers and how I reacted to them has also been incredibly helpful in understanding the dynamics of a particular situation better.

Good luck.  I hope it all gets figured out.


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## Conclusion (Sep 21, 2012)

Perhaps you could sum it up like this:

Just like Ti doms know _what they think_ with unusual clarity, and can say "hey that's not true" when bad ideas become too popular, Fi doms know _what they believe_ with unusual strength, and can say "hey that's not right" when we as a society start to change for the worse.

What's "worse" here? Short answer, ask a Fi dom, but perhaps you could consider: income inequality and extreme poverty, executions of political prisoners, environmental degradation and extinctions, genocide and wars of aggression, prejudice and institutional discrimination, violent and abusive relationships... depending on your politics you could multiply this list endlessly.

As a Ti dom these things could easily just fall off my radar, and indeed I had to reach a bit to put this (hopefully noncontroversial) list together. Why had I heard about them in the first place? I imagine a Fi dom somewhere was responsible; for my own personal much longer list, I can name one INFP in particular.

Anyway, I will admit, as an INTP I have to work hard to understand Fi doms when they explain themselves, and it only really works when we try to meet one another halfway. Perhaps also, since we as a society seem to value thinking stuff more than feeling stuff, thinkers are less likely to realize they have to try, or to know what the effort involves? Perhaps also, for the same reason, while I was able to easily find ways to train my Ti (advanced mathematics, hard sciences, blah blah blah) there are a lot of folks who haven't had comparable opportunities for their Fi, and so find it hard to sharpen it up and express it clearly? And maybe as a dude I have the privilege of embracing Fi stuff without being accused of being "irrational!" Indeed, I'd imagine that our problems with Fi doms are all tied up with sexism somehow.

But recently I've read a lot of stuff by Fi doms, and after my initial reaction of "my god what is this guy talking about?," there's some brilliant and amazing stuff there! Stuff that really clarifies difficult issues in politics, economics, human affairs! Stuff I really wish I'd thought of. (Cookie if you can guess why I didn't.)


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## Ellis Bell (Mar 16, 2012)

> I'd imagine that our problems with Fi doms are all tied up with sexism somehow.


I've been reading Jung and I find it fascinating how he essentially considers Fi a "feminine" function. He observed that in his experience, Fi users were female, so that's how he referred to the function in his description of it. Whereas Ti he thinks of as being more male. But from what I've read Jung seems to be pretty sexist, in my opinion. In reality, though, his descriptions of the two functions are remarkably similar. Actually, his descriptions of all the introverted functions are very similar. So it leads me to think that maybe we're not as different as we make ourselves out to be...


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## aravis (Apr 2, 2012)

This is so funny, because I do not (NOT) deal with strong Fe well. I'm like, "Hi, please be a little more authentic." I'm getting over it. The best friend is an ISFJ so what can I do?


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## MyNameIsTooLon (Apr 28, 2012)

Fi users will do what they say. Fe users will say one thing and do another.


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

MyNameIsTooLon said:


> Fi users will do what they say. Fe users will say one thing and do another.


*headdesk*

You are describing values, not cognitive functions.


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## MyNameIsTooLon (Apr 28, 2012)

niss said:


> *headdesk*
> 
> You are describing values, not cognitive functions.


*headdesk*

you clearly don't know what you're talking about


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

MyNameIsTooLon said:


> *headdesk*
> 
> you clearly don't know what you're talking about


Let's see ... 

You have divided the population into two camps: Fi users and Fe users. Based on this simple dichotomy, you then state that those using Fi will follow through on what they say they will do, and those using Fe will not do what they say they will do. No qualifiers, no descriptors, nothing added - straight up, this is how the two groups of people will behave. Period.

From this, the implication is that Fi users are trustworthy (doing what they say they will do), while Fe users are habitual liars (don't do what they say they will do.)

Yet, the reality is that there are people of all types, whether using Fi or Fe, that are trustworthy and follow through on their statements, and there are people of all types that don't follow through and that don't do what they say they will do.

Furthermore, this behavior is obviously heavily influenced by each person's value system and their family of origin (culture, life experiences, etc.). This, coupled with the fact that there is no one that always does what they say they will do, and there is no one that never does what they say they will do, makes your statement as originally presented, logically flawed when examined in the most cursory manner.

Your statement, as written, has no basis in reality.


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