# So you find out you're defective..



## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

LostFavor said:


> What keeps it alive?


A web - or perhaps long trail - of justification for whatever belief tells the person they aren't enough. A deep-seated internalization that "This is good, this is acceptable, this is worthwhile," and subsequent need to achieve that in order to have a sense of peace. That's what I would say keep it going. 

Also, I just thought, existence equaling non-defectiveness is kind of...lowest common denominator, isn't it?


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## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

Thaumaturgic Theorist said:


> A web - or perhaps long trail - of justification for whatever belief tells the person they aren't enough. A deep-seated internalization that "This is good, this is acceptable, this is worthwhile," and subsequent need to achieve that in order to have a sense of peace. That's what I would say keep it going.
> 
> Also, I just thought, existence equaling non-defectiveness is kind of...lowest common denominator, isn't it?


Oh. I meant, what keeps it alive for you.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

LostFavor said:


> Oh. I meant, what keeps it alive for you.


Oh. Well, _that_, more or less. A belief, of uncertain origin but increasing strength, that if I do not correct the things that make me "defective" according to my standards, I'm a worthless, unlovable excuse for a human being who doesn't deserve to be happy. 


To save you a possible question, for me "happy" just means content with myself and confident. Self-secure in a way. I know the words "happy" and "happiness" get thrown around a lot and are themselves highly subjective, so one can never be sure what a person means by them. 

I can be weirdly self-aware when I want to be.


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## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

Thaumaturgic Theorist said:


> Oh. Well, _that_, more or less. A belief, of uncertain origin but increasing strength, that if I do not correct the things that make me "defective" according to my standards, I'm a worthless, unlovable excuse for a human being who doesn't deserve to be happy.
> 
> 
> To save you a possible question, for me "happy" just means content with myself and confident. Self-secure in a way. I know the words "happy" and "happiness" get thrown around a lot and are themselves highly subjective, so one can never be sure what a person means by them.
> ...


Do you always feel discontent with yourself?


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## CosmicYeti (Dec 15, 2014)

For self loathing and a self angelic I would recommend a pinch of psychedelic.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

LostFavor said:


> Do you always feel discontent with yourself?


A lot of the time, yes. It doesn't go away, and trying to convince myself I'm fine the way I am or whatever just feels like self-delusion. Saying that being a functioning human is enough is almost....patronizing. Like, you think I can't do better? Am I really that low? That I should just be content with my total lack of any worthwhile or noteworthy traits or abilities, content to be beneath so many people, probably looked down upon or even pitied or mocked? Am I really expected to have the goldly patience to just not care about that, to just be content in mediocrity?? 

I think I'll stop there before I make myself look any crazier....

I was about to go and edit my last post but it's been quoted so I'll say now: what I wrote was probably the more extreme, wallowing-in-self-hatred version of my discontent. Mostly it's just a pervasive feeling of "Not good enough yet". It takes quite a bit of emotion for that raw motivation to become so obvious...


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## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

Thaumaturgic Theorist said:


> A lot of the time, yes. It doesn't go away, and trying to convince myself I'm fine the way I am or whatever just feels like self-delusion. Saying that being a functioning human is enough is almost....patronizing. Like, you think I can't do better? Am I really that low? That I should just be content with my total lack of any worthwhile or noteworthy traits or abilities, content to be beneath so many people, probably looked down upon or even pitied or mocked? Am I really expected to have the goldly patience to just not care about that, to just be content in mediocrity??
> 
> I think I'll stop there before I make myself look any crazier....
> 
> I was about to go and edit my last post but it's been quoted so I'll say now: what I wrote was probably the more extreme, wallowing-in-self-hatred version of my discontent. Mostly it's just a pervasive feeling of "Not good enough yet". It takes quite a bit of emotion for that raw motivation to become so obvious...


I can edit it out if you want.

I understand if you don't want to get into the specifics. If you'd like to in private, feel free to send me a PM.



Thaumaturgic Theorist said:


> Saying that being a functioning human is enough is almost....patronizing. Like, you think I can't do better? Am I really that low? That I should just be content with my total lack of any worthwhile or noteworthy traits or abilities, content to be beneath so many people, probably looked down upon or even pitied or mocked? Am I really expected to have the goldly patience to just not care about that, to just be content in mediocrity??


That's one way to interpret it.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

LostFavor said:


> I can edit it out if you want.
> 
> I understand if you don't want to get into the specifics. If you'd like to in private, feel free to send me a PM.


It's fine. Might consider that PM offer next time these thoughts decide to overload my brain.



> That's one way to interpret it.


Okay...and what's another way?


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## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

Thaumaturgic Theorist said:


> It's fine. Might consider that PM offer next time these thoughts decide to overload my brain.


Ok. :happy:


Thaumaturgic Theorist said:


> Okay...and what's another way?


Well, if everybody is worth something just by existing, then how much they're worth doesn't matter much to me at that point. They're all adding something - I don't need them all to be amazing all the time, including myself. 

So I don't really see it as a judgment of how much or how little a particular person can do. Those kind of judgments I'd save for, like... business decisions or something. Highly specific jobs for a particular period of time.

In general, the range from mediocre to expert seems to vary so much just depending on what sort of skillset you're looking at. My experience in face-to-face conversation is abysmal compared to the average outgoing person, but I am experienced at writing, among several other things.


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## Draki (Apr 4, 2014)

thismustbetheplace said:


> "_Feelings do not come from nowhere, and often they have their origin in early childhood and especially the way we were treated by our parents. For example, you may have learned from them to be self-critical before others could have a chance to criticize you."
> 
> _
> If that doesn't say "your parents are probably at fault for your problems" I don't know what does. Especially considering that was the only possible explanation you provided for where the feelings could have come from.


 @Silveresque 's statement was more an information that problems OFTEN (not always) have their origin in early childhood. There was nothing about you personally in her statement or that she thinks your parents are at fault. It's a possibility she mentioned so that you could look into it. She just gave a start point to search. If you want to search the problem of course...

The whole enneagram theory works with these childhood stories because parents cannot give their baby everything due to strengths and weaknesses in their own personality, it is not their fault they are just humans. 
I'm not an expert in psychology but I think they also ask how you were as a child and so on. So it was not a bad suggestion. Obviously everyone developes their personality after birth with everything we encounter in life. 

If you don't think it's from your childhood then try to find the origin elsewhere. What negative events were in your life? There must be something that caused those feelings. 



@ everybody here who feels defective: It's difficult to help, when I don't feel this way, I would solve it like Grandmaster Yoda "be detached, undertand and observe yourself, explore the why am I feeling this way, remember that you are not your feelings and so on", but I have a natural ability to be very detached from feelings so that won't work for everyone. 
But I guess it would help to talk about it with others who feel the same. I think the enneagram type 4 subforum is a good place to go because they report having a similar problem. They may feel flawed, different, defective, unique, etc. They also have problems with envy... 4—Enneagram Type Four: The Individualist—Overview perhaps they already have good advices. 
The enneagram helped me very much to learn about myself so I can recommend it. It's often very negative but it also has growth suggestions and so on 
I think the older we get the more we start to accept ourselves and how we are. 
We can also try to change our weaknesses into strenghts. 

Growth for type 4 would be:
Personal Growth for Enneagram Type Fours


> Do not pay so much attention to your feelings; they are not a true source of support for you, as you probably already know. Remember this advice: "From our present perspective, we can also see that one of the most important mistakes Fours make is to equate themselves with their feelings. The fallacy is that to understand themselves they must understand their feelings, particularly their negative ones, before acting. Fours do not see that the self is not the same as its feelings or that the presence of negative feelings does not preclude the presence of good in themselves" (_Personality Types_, p. 172). Always remember that your feelings are telling you something about yourself as you are at this particular moment, not necessarily more than that.
> Avoid putting off things until you are "in the right mood." Commit yourself to productive, meaningful work that will contribute to your good and that of others, no matter how small the contribution may be. Working consistently in the real world will create a context in which you can discover yourself and your talents. (Actually, you are happiest when you are working—that is, activating your potentials and realizing yourself. You will not "find yourself" in a vacuum or while waiting for inspiration to strike, so connect—and stay connected—with the real world.
> Self-esteem and self-confidence will develop only from having positive experiences, whether or not you believe that you are ready to have them. Therefore, put yourself in the way of good. You may never feel that you are ready to take on a challenge of some sort, that you always need more time. (Fours typically never feel that they are sufficiently "together," but they must nevertheless have the courage to stop putting off their lives.) Even if  you start small, commit yourself to doing something that will bring out the best in you.
> A wholesome self-discipline takes many forms, from sleeping regular hours to working regularly to exercising regularly, and has a cumulative, strengthening effect. Since it comes from yourself, a healthy self-discipline is not contrary to your freedom or individuality. On the other hand, sensuality, excessive sexual experiences, alcohol, drugs, sleep, or fantasizing have a debilitating effect on you, as you already know. Therefore, practice healthy self-discipline and stay with it.
> Avoid lengthy conversations in your imagination, particularly if they are negative, resentful, or even excessively romantic. These conversations are essentially unreal and at best only rehearsals for action—although, as you know, you almost never say or do what you imagine you will. Instead of spending time imagining your life and relationships, begin to live them.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Silveresque said:


> Nothing disgusts me more than someone putting words in my mouth and arguing over what _I meant_ by my own words. We're done here. End of discussion, because it is pointless to argue with someone who plays the "you're lying" card so they don't have to listen to a single thing I try to explain.


Actually, "disgust" isn't the word; I'd run with - or words - or better: acronyms: such as LMFAO at, works really well for me. ^_^


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## Frosty (Jul 16, 2010)

:tongue:


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## dragthewaters (Feb 9, 2013)

Draki said:


> @_Silveresque_ 's statement was more an information that problems OFTEN (not always) have their origin in early childhood. There was nothing about you personally in her statement or that she thinks your parents are at fault. It's a possibility she mentioned so that you could look into it. She just gave a start point to search. If you want to search the problem of course...
> 
> The whole enneagram theory works with these childhood stories because parents cannot give their baby everything due to strengths and weaknesses in their own personality, it is not their fault they are just humans.
> I'm not an expert in psychology but I think they also ask how you were as a child and so on. So it was not a bad suggestion. Obviously everyone developes their personality after birth with everything we encounter in life.
> ...


Then why did she only mention that one possibility and didn't even acknowledge that there could be other possibilities? And why, in modern society, are parents always, ALWAYS the point at which the blame and accusations start? Every fucking time?

Honestly I don't even think the parent-child relationship is the most formative relationship in a child's life. I think how a child interacts with their peers is much more important because that's really what shows them where their social place is in the world, and those dynamics -- whether they were able to make friends at an early age, whether they were the kid everyone envied or the kid everyone ridiculed -- will mirror in some way throughout their life.

And if you really think about it, the average kid spends almost as much time with their elementary school teachers as they do with their parents. Why don't people wonder about the effect of a teacher's personality flaws on a child's social development?

Why do you think it has to come from a negative event at all? It could just be a genetic predisposition (neuroticism and psychopathy are caused by genetics, why not bitchiness?) Or it could just be totally random.

But overall TBH I think most people don't change very much depending on what events happened to them in their life. From the stories my family has told me about how I was as a baby, I think I have had pretty much the same personality my whole life. The same goes for other people in my family. There may be slight fluctuations over time, but the baseline is pretty much unchangeable.


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## Draki (Apr 4, 2014)

thismustbetheplace said:


> Then why did she only mention that one possibility and didn't even acknowledge that there could be other possibilities? The answer is the word "often", so it is the most likely possibility for her, she also only gave one example afterwards, an example is usually one part. The whole comment was pretty general and in no way personally. That's why I was surprised that you reacted kinda offended. But I found it pretty interesting because it showed our different perceptions. And why, in modern society, are parents always, ALWAYS the point at which the blame and accusations start? Every fucking time? That's your perception of reality. You probably read that a lot in the past, so you concluded it would be always the case. Inductive reasoning. I'm not sure if it's often the case, but I also don't read a lot about these things. However I can see why someone would start to search in the childhood and who influenced us back then.
> I can see your point very well though, my sister also was a very wild child and my mother always thought it was her fault, but it really isn't, it was my sisters personality. I'm a very quiet person, not really feeling-oriented, again my mother thought she didn't give me enough love when I was younger and felt at fault. But I felt the other way around, she gave me too much love which I didn't needed due to my personality. Funnily, this is exactly a possible childhood story for enneagram type 5.
> So imo it would be pretty stupid to say "it's always the fault of the parents". But if you read properly, then my personality was influenced very much by my mother because I said she gave me love which I didn't need. The problem is more the word "fault". To be at fault is such a negative thing to say, like she did it on purpose. I actually like my personality, so she did nothing wrong really. There is nothing to blame. We all influence each other. There is no perfect or imperfect personality. I think we are a product of all our experiences we encounter plus our core personality which seems to be there before we are even born. I've read an interesting enneagram article about it, but it doesn't work for everyone: Personality Types: Chilhood Scenarios for Enneatypes: Law of Three - Enneagram and Myers Briggs
> 
> ...


Comments in red.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

thismustbetheplace said:


> Then why did she only mention that one possibility and didn't even acknowledge that there could be other possibilities?


To me, nearly _everything _is merely a possibility, so it's automatically assumed there are other possibilities whether I consciously acknowledge them or not. It would get pretty repetitive if I had to say "There are always other possibilities" all the time. I am in no way obligated to provide every possibility, nor am I obligated to give a full summary of my views when my only intention is to suggest a possibility. Who has the time to do that every time they say something? There is no reason to assume that because I didn't mention any other possibilities, it means I don't believe there are any. 

I don't know why you are arguing with me because I don't even disagree that the parents aren't always the cause and that there are, unfortunately, people who blindly blame parents.



> And why, in modern society, are parents always, ALWAYS the point at which the blame and accusations start? Every fucking time?


Probably a lot of the time people just pick up on what other people are saying and assume that's what it is, without even necessarily understanding it themselves.

People who give it more thought will understand it as a possibility and a perspective. But there is also no reason omit it and not consider it as a possibility at all because in reality it actually does happen quite often and is something I see come up very commonly in therapy sessions. 

At the same time, I don't view it as an excuse to not change, or as something to "blame" the parents for. Parents very often do try their best and wish the best for their children, but even so it still happens that not every unconscious message we receive from our parents is positive. It's unavoidable, even for the most loving parents.



> Honestly I don't even think the parent-child relationship is the most formative relationship in a child's life. I think how a child interacts with their peers is much more important because that's really what shows them where their social place is in the world, and those dynamics -- whether they were able to make friends at an early age, whether they were the kid everyone envied or the kid everyone ridiculed -- will mirror in some way throughout their life.


It depends on the individual and their experiences. Some will be more shaped by their parents and others by their peers. 



> Why do you think it has to come from a negative event at all? It could just be a genetic predisposition (neuroticism and psychopathy are caused by genetics, why not bitchiness?) Or it could just be totally random.


It doesn't necessarily and I never said that. I don't think it would have helped for me to say that.


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## Emerald Legend (Jul 13, 2010)

CosmicYeti said:


> For self loathing and a self angelic I would recommend a pinch of psychedelic.


Pretty sure I'd freak out on psychedelics.


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## TheHiddenAngel (Mar 1, 2015)

I'm not sure if defective is the right word. I'd say 'extra, unwanted features' would be more accurate. Like say you buy a computer and it comes dual boot with a great operating system and a crappy one. Sure, the OS is unwanted but does it make the computer 'defective'? Nope.

But to answer your question I'd just pretend. Pretending is good sometimes.


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