# Give me reasons for why you DONT use MBTI for dating



## armika_armika (Nov 11, 2011)

Please give me some reasons for why you shouldnt use mbti (or ennegram) when it comes to dating and chosing a partner. I can't help myself but trying to figure out what type everyone is, and I do sort of dismiss someone if they are "the wrong type".

Next week I'll be going on a date with a guy who was INTJ (he did only one test, but I think it's correct most of the time, but he said he also had some istj traits). So, I googled intj+esfp and gosh, found like a million arguments to why we shouldnt even meet 
INTJ's seem to loathe esfp!
But I think he seems very nice, we have just been emailing so far, but I really like his style. Seems like he finds me interesting too, and he said I seem a little bit crazy and that he likes that.

How do you approach all this in your lives?


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

There are actually people who would argue for ESFP/INTJ because of reversed same functions, and those who would argue for ESFP/ISTJ or even ESFP/ISTP. 

Basically, I think you should gauge this on individuals, and what your personal response is to individuals you've met of that type. Some ESFPs may get along with INTJs just fine, while with others it would be a nightmare, because of interests and values and development of certain functions, not just because of the basic type. 

The best thing is to try to understand the type you're involved with and see if its something you can deal with, and also note if there's certain types which keep reappearing in your life as compatible (or not).

I don't think there are hard and fast rules for compatibility.


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## Eerie (Feb 9, 2011)

Because my boyfriend and I are more compatible than I ever was with an INTJ.


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## alphacat (Mar 17, 2011)

Because what determines whether or not a relationship will succeed is how much effort the two people involved put into making it work, not the personality of the two people involved. As such, immature people of two theoretically compatible types will not end up in a successful relationship, whereas, mature people of any type can create a successful relationship with tolerance, and mutual understanding.


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## traceur (Jan 19, 2012)

years ago before ever hearing about the MBTI or meeting my wife, there was awhile where i hang out with a girl who was probably... i'd say Se & Fi as dominant/secondary, and whatever N there was was buried so deep and so undeveloped it wasn't noticeable.

i literally felt alone with her. it sounds horrible i know, but she was there without being there, and listening to her talk was like watching one of those weird half-random screen savers... talking to her was like throwing a pebble in the water, a few ripples but nothing changes, like her thoughts are pseudo "work of arts" that don't try to express anything and don't ever lead to anything, existing only for their own sake... her subjective experience was just so alien that after awhile she wasn't a person in my head, her psychology might as well be geology. all i could see when i looked at her was those distorted mental patterns. there was no content to the communication, it carried no meaning. physically she looked good, and she liked me - to her credit she was more open to our differences if she even noticed them... i don't expect everyone to see through me with a sharp Ni, but she? whatever she saw in me didn't feel like me, and her gaze made me feel so uncomfortable... i just couldn't, and i bailed on her.

years later i found out she had a new job... as a party clown.
and clowns creep the crap out of me.
dodged that bullet.

my point: maybe the MBTI isn't so bad.


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## armika_armika (Nov 11, 2011)

Eerie said:


> Because my boyfriend and I are more compatible than I ever was with an INTJ.


So.. what is your current boyfriends type?


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## Eerie (Feb 9, 2011)

armika_armika said:


> So.. what is your current boyfriends type?


ENTP.

10chars.


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## armika_armika (Nov 11, 2011)

traceur said:


> years ago before ever hearing about the MBTI or meeting my wife, there was awhile where i hang out with a girl who was probably... i'd say Se & Fi as dominant/secondary, and whatever N there was was buried so deep and so undeveloped it wasn't noticeable.
> 
> i literally felt alone with her. it sounds horrible i know, but she was there without being there, and listening to her talk was like watching one of those weird half-random screen savers... talking to her was like throwing a pebble in the water, a few ripples but nothing changes, like her thoughts are pseudo "work of arts" that don't try to express anything and don't ever lead to anything, existing only for their own sake... her subjective experience was just so alien that after awhile she wasn't a person in my head, her psychology might as well be geology. all i could see when i looked at her was those distorted mental patterns. there was no content to the communication, it carried no meaning. physically she looked good, and she liked me - to her credit she was more open to our differences if she even noticed them... i don't expect everyone to see through me with a sharp Ni, but she? whatever she saw in me didn't feel like me, and her gaze made me feel so uncomfortable... i just couldn't, and i bailed on her.
> 
> ...


Seems like you definetly did the right thing to end that relationship! It's hard to understand why you two were together in the first place...


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## armika_armika (Nov 11, 2011)

Eerie said:


> ENTP.
> 
> 10chars.


sorry, what does "10chars" mean?


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## armika_armika (Nov 11, 2011)

alphacat said:


> Because what determines whether or not a relationship will succeed is how much effort the two people involved put into making it work, not the personality of the two people involved. As such, immature people of two theoretically compatible types will not end up in a successful relationship, whereas, mature people of any type can create a successful relationship with tolerance, and mutual understanding.


That sound so wise, so I guess you dont think that maybe some types together is like asking for trouble? I mean, the option: two mature people of compatible types, mustnt that be the best thing?


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## Eerie (Feb 9, 2011)

armika_armika said:


> sorry, what does "10chars" mean?


A post needs to be ten characters long to post it, so uh, you type that to make it long enough to post when your response is otherwise too short.


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## armika_armika (Nov 11, 2011)

fourtines said:


> There are actually people who would argue for ESFP/INTJ because of reversed same functions, and those who would argue for ESFP/ISTJ or even ESFP/ISTP.
> 
> Basically, I think you should gauge this on individuals, and what your personal response is to individuals you've met of that type. Some ESFPs may get along with INTJs just fine, while with others it would be a nightmare, because of interests and values and development of certain functions, not just because of the basic type.
> 
> ...


You're probably right  Actually, I just talk to my friend whos mother is a psychologist, and her experience is that its quite often that total opposite attracts and form relations.


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## traceur (Jan 19, 2012)

armika_armika said:


> Seems like you definetly did the right thing to end that relationship! It's hard to understand why you two were together in the first place...


i was a virgin and wanted to get it over with, she liked tall guys with dark curly hair, we both liked weed.

...the weed supply ended prematurely.


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## LotusBlossom (Apr 2, 2011)

why not?...


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## armika_armika (Nov 11, 2011)

traceur said:


> i was a virgin and wanted to get it over with, she liked tall guys with dark curly hair, we both liked weed.
> 
> ...the weed supply ended prematurely.


 LOL, ok I see why


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## armika_armika (Nov 11, 2011)

Kayness said:


> why not?...


Yeah, thats what I wanna know 

Well, if you ask me, its because, we're all more than just our "type". And it's not like carved into stone what type goes together with who, right? There are different theories about it, so if you go solidly for one theory, then you might end up dismissing someone who could actually be right for you, according to another theory, or... just plain "right" for you, theories aside.

Some people are also quite weak in for example their S, like they have both N and S... why would you have to cathegorize people?
I mean it's one thing to go into mbti to gain more understanding of oneself and others, and one other to like always wanna put people in a cathegory.

Like, you are together with Stephen, right? (btw you seem like an adorable couple  ), and he's istj isnt he? So like, according to some theories, he's not the "right" type for you. Would you let that stop you?

And then, if you also include the ennegram theory...it gets even more difficult to find "the right" partner... do you get me?


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## alphacat (Mar 17, 2011)

armika_armika said:


> That sound so wise, so I guess you dont think that maybe some types together is like asking for trouble? I mean, the option: two mature people of compatible types, mustnt that be the best thing?


Haha, of course that's ideal. However, love isn't a science. Mbti is great for understanding ourselves, but it's not great at predicting love. Being a compatible type with you doesn't mean he won't cheat. Nor does it mean he doesn't have any deep debilitating issues. Also, if you date purely based on MBTI, you'd miss out on so many potentially amazing guys.

You sound like you think this guy is pretty cool, so put aside mbti and just go for it. I promise you, by the end of the first date, you'd be able to judge whether you guys are a match better than any of us can say.


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## LotusBlossom (Apr 2, 2011)

armika_armika said:


> Yeah, thats what I wanna know
> 
> Well, if you ask me, its because, we're all more than just our "type". And it's not like carved into stone what type goes together with who, right? There are different theories about it, so if you go solidly for one theory, then you might end up dismissing someone who could actually be right for you, according to another theory, or... just plain "right" for you, theories aside.
> 
> ...


-
Aw thank you so much, that's so sweet of you! Well as for Enneagram, he's a 6 and I'm 9, and according to the E institute website, 6-9 romances are like 'what our hearts have been seeking and our dreams come true' LOL epic! Keirsey also pairs SJs with SPs as compatible types. Not that we got together because of that, but just because we find each other to be great people.

I think you've pretty much answered your question as to why choosing a partner by type is heavily flawed. Those INTJs who dismiss ESFPs for no better reason than because they're ESFPs aren't worth your time anyway, and I hope your date isn't like that!


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

I dated my exact opposite. ISFP. It was a mistake. I don't want to say that MBTI should be used as an end all be all, but there is relevance in it. Me and him had nothing in common. I thought that he was a thinker then I realized he was only agreeing with what I thought. He literally had no real opinions of his own. He listened to people he looked up to and adopted their opinions as his own. It really pissed me off when I realize that. I was initailly attracted to his sensitivity, but it wore off quickly. I agree with @traceur that MBTI isn't all bad. I will never date another ISFP. Not saying we can't be friends, but if someone wasn't an intuitive or a thinker it wouldn't work out. SF's are fine, I can talk trivial things with them, but I've never been able to go further. Thats not attractive to me, so I'll never date another one.


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## armika_armika (Nov 11, 2011)

Chipps said:


> I dated my exact opposite. ISFP. It was a mistake. I don't want to say that MBTI should be used as an end all be all, but there is relevance in it. Me and him had nothing in common. I thought that he was a thinker then I realized he was only agreeing with what I thought. He literally had no real opinions of his own. He listened to people he looked up to and adopted their opinions as his own. It really pissed me off when I realize that. I was initailly attracted to his sensitivity, but it wore off quickly. I agree with @traceur that MBTI isn't all bad. I will never date another ISFP. Not saying we can't be friends, but if someone wasn't an intuitive or a thinker it wouldn't work out. SF's are fine, I can talk trivial things with them, but I've never been able to go further. Thats not attractive to me, so I'll never date another one.


I think I see a pattern...when you have a bad experience with someone and you are a "believer" of MBTI, then you will most likely explain why it didn't work out/the person in question drove you mad with MBTI theory. 'They are simply "the type" that drives you mad.'

Probably we all sometimes mistype those we like as being types that we think we prefer, or that we had read that we're suppose to prefer, and vice versa. And we never get to know when we're wrong... A simplistic way of explaining things. 

Being an ESFP, I think it's quite a common mistake that people see someone acting loud, behaving in a shallow way or laughing just alittle bit too much, and they immediatly think it's an ESFP. They don't know for sure, but the THINK they are right and won't know if they're not -so once again they get the _image they_ have of an ESFP confirmed. Could be positive or negative, but do they even know it's true?

I'm glad I didnt find out about Myer Briggs earlier in life, then maybe I would have believed everything bad being said about us ESFP's, how unintelligent we are for example, and I wouldnt have gone to medschool.


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## armika_armika (Nov 11, 2011)

alphacat said:


> Haha, of course that's ideal. However, love isn't a science. Mbti is great for understanding ourselves, but it's not great at predicting love. Being a compatible type with you doesn't mean he won't cheat. Nor does it mean he doesn't have any deep debilitating issues. Also, if you date purely based on MBTI, you'd miss out on so many potentially amazing guys.
> 
> You sound like you think this guy is pretty cool, so put aside mbti and just go for it. I promise you, by the end of the first date, you'd be able to judge whether you guys are a match better than any of us can say.


Thank you! yes, I think he's pretty cool. I will give it a go, this is just me speculating!


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## Gray Skies (Dec 27, 2010)

Why don't I use MBTI for dating?

"Hi there, would you be interested in going out to dinner and a movie with me? But first, because I don't know you at an intimate level yet, I'm going to need you to take this comprehensive personality test. If it turns out that you're the wrong type for me then we can just skip the date and save ourselves the hassle in the long run. Okay?"










But in all seriousness, I don't use MBTI for dating for the exact reason that you discussed in the OP. Dismissing someone because they're the "wrong type" is just goofy and shortsighted, and that's what begins to happen when using MBTI for dating. You begin to stereotype people into a mold based upon preconceived notions of who they should be instead of actually getting to know them. It's unfair to the other person and yourself.


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## traceur (Jan 19, 2012)

Chipps said:


> I agree with @traceur that MBTI isn't all bad. I will never date another ISFP. Not saying we can't be friends, but if someone wasn't an intuitive or a thinker it wouldn't work out.


hmm, i am with you on the N, but between NTs and NFs i think i still find NFs more attractive... admittedly communication can be problematic when things get tough and personal, but it brings interesting challenges and i'd like to get better at figuring them out. 

i'm not sure what do you mean by no opinions... no thoughts or no preferences? 

i have a hard time with preferences. took me years to decide my favorite colors and it still changes. i vote for my rep based on which party i think is less likely to win so that the coalition has less power and the top-down changes or change-prevention is less capable. i like scotch and i like wine but i wouldn't want to have to pick one permanently. suits slim me down and pronounce my shoulders and are easier to go commando in, but jeans make my ass look better and go better with V neck shirts. how am i supposed to choose between liking jeans over suit? this entire line of questions always feel really awkward.


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## Senter (Nov 21, 2011)

okay... well... 

I thought the girl I love at the moment was an INFP when I first met her. No doubt I was attracted to her but a lot of sources say INFPs aren't supposed to be together. She's an INTJ but not at ALL what I imagined an INTJ being. 

I've met many many ENFJs. If you go in expecting that you all will connect before hand then the other person feels really weird because you are giving up social norms and going in with pre-fabricated assumptions that they most likely feel the need to fulfill.

Why not just use your feelings to lead you?


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## armika_armika (Nov 11, 2011)

Gray Skies said:


> Why don't I use MBTI for dating?
> 
> "Hi there, would you be interested in going out to dinner and a movie with me? But first, because I don't know you at an intimate level yet, I'm going to need you to take this comprehensive personality test. If it turns out that you're the wrong type for me then we can just skip the date and save ourselves the hassle in the long run. Okay?"
> 
> ...


LOL XD thanks for the laugh and the insight


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## armika_armika (Nov 11, 2011)

Senter said:


> okay... well...
> 
> I thought the girl I love at the moment was an INFP when I first met her. No doubt I was attracted to her but a lot of sources say INFPs aren't supposed to be together. She's an INTJ but not at ALL what I imagined an INTJ being.
> 
> ...


You know, to have feelings as a guide is probably the best thing, well no, it is the best thing. It's just insecurity and fear that makes me think like this. Out of curiousity, what _is _your experience with an intj? What were your assumptions and how did they turn out to be wrong?


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## snail (Oct 13, 2008)

armika_armika said:


> Please give me some reasons for why you shouldnt use mbti (or ennegram) when it comes to dating and chosing a partner. I can't help myself but trying to figure out what type everyone is, and I do sort of dismiss someone if they are "the wrong type".
> 
> Next week I'll be going on a date with a guy who was INTJ (he did only one test, but I think it's correct most of the time, but he said he also had some istj traits). So, I googled intj+esfp and gosh, found like a million arguments to why we shouldnt even meet
> INTJ's seem to loathe esfp!
> ...


I think knowing your partner's type is important, because if you have a pattern of consistently having relationship problems with a certain type, and if that pattern of relationship disasters happens because of type-related incompatible needs, then the best thing to do would be to avoid making the same mistake again. That's why I don't date INTPs anymore. The vast majority of my failed relationships have been with INTPs, and those relationships always seem to fall apart the same way. I have learned a hard lesson over time about what I need from my partners, and what I need them not to be like. The same people who are toxic for me would probably be perfect for someone else, but I definitely think a person's type can make him clash with me romantically. 

Knowing what you want in a relationship is a good thing. There is such a thing as a "wrong type" for some of us, but that being said, don't be discouraged by what the books say. While a relationship with your exact opposite is probably the most challenging kind of relationship you could possibly attempt, sometimes such relationships work if both partners are equally committed to making the necessary compromises. Individual will-power can override some forms of incompatibility if you are in love.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

armika_armika said:


> I think I see a pattern...when you have a bad experience with someone and you are a "believer" of MBTI, then you will most likely explain why it didn't work out/the person in question drove you mad with MBTI theory. 'They are simply "the type" that drives you mad.'
> 
> Probably we all sometimes mistype those we like as being types that we think we prefer, or that we had read that we're suppose to prefer, and vice versa. And we never get to know when we're wrong... A simplistic way of explaining things.
> 
> ...


Oh no, he was a confirmed ISFP. My boss is also one. And because we live in an S/F world, I've met quite a few of them to know that, while we can be friends, there is a certain depth that is lacking there. Now, I will admit that my ISFP ex was unhealthy. But my boss isn't and that same "thing" is there. I have a friend who is an SFP and I like him, but I can't say I respect him. The things that I deem as respectable are not things that he possess. 

This is not to say that I don't like SFs or SFP or SFJ but I can only go so far with them. I tend to get along better with NFs and I get along great with NTs and STs. We vibe better. But I'll never marry date another SF. It just wouldnt work and I don't like wasting my time. I've honed in on what works for me, and I'm gonna stick to it.


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## Senter (Nov 21, 2011)

armika_armika said:


> You know, to have feelings as a guide is probably the best thing, well no, it is the best thing. It's just insecurity and fear that makes me think like this. Out of curiousity, what _is _your experience with an intj? What were your assumptions and how did they turn out to be wrong?


Well with the INTJ my assumptions weren't really wrong actually since they were based on my feelings primarily and then i hypothesized that she might be an INFP. Like I felt like she was very emotional, confident, unaffected but free. And all those things turned out to be true but I guess I never considered INTJ because the INTJs on this website are very "yay science and logic and not revealing any emotions at all". So my assumptions were not so much about her but what an INTJ should be like. And also i can tell you I've met other INTJs in my life (like 5) whom I did not feel NEARLY as strong of an attraction to at all. To me I do tend to be attracted to a certain type but the type does not fall in accordance with MBTI. 

But as far as my experience with this particular INTJ it has been really fucking great to say the least.


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## Erbse (Oct 15, 2010)

armika_armika said:


> Next week I'll be going on a date with a guy who was *INTJ* (he did only one test, but I think it's correct most of the time, but *he said he also had some istj traits*). So, I googled intj+esfp and gosh,* found like a million arguments *to why *we shouldnt even meet *


There, you gave the reasons yourself already.


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## quadrivium (Nov 6, 2011)

armika_armika said:


> Please give me some reasons for why you shouldnt use mbti (or ennegram) when it comes to dating and chosing a partner. I can't help myself but trying to figure out what type everyone is, and I do sort of dismiss someone if they are "the wrong type".
> 
> How do you approach all this in your lives?


One of my closest friends is an ESFP. She wears me the hell out quickly, but I do quite enjoy her. He may think your energy is cute now, but he will probably grow weary of that; just a heads up. It's one date though. I say MBTI is not who you are, but how you do.


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## Olena (Jan 2, 2011)

I believe a relationship's success is based on the effort the people put in, HOWEVER, some differences can't be worked with. That's being realistic.

Now lemme tell you the *REAL* REASON not to use MBTI for dating:

Mistypings. :tongue:

It's common.

"Oh you're an ISFP? MAN OF MY DREAMS!"
Turns out to be something ridiculously different.

I ignore when people tell me their type because 1 test means jackshit. Do a few, check your functions, then sure, I'll look at your MBTI type, until then, you have no type to me.

Meh. I believe real recognizes real and I often find fake INTPs running around in the world. Sure, it may sound presumptuous of me to say I can spot fake INTPs, but we're pretty..unique. I can spot my own type on this forum by their posts, without even looking at their profiles. And I guess I just get annoyed because of labels, when someone meets 1 person from a type, they assume ALL people of that type are like that. I at least want real INTPs representing us. Whoa, that sounds like my Fe.

So yeah, use MBTI as a way to work with someone, but don't be too quick to judge them. They might just be like..an xxxx with very balanced traits. Balance is good.

Although, personally, there are types I can honestly see myself just not getting along with. Is that bad? No, it can't be helped.

It's good to remember opposites often attract one another e.g F with T. I myself would like someone more emotional. I need to balance myself out.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

traceur said:


> hmm, i am with you on the N, but between NTs and NFs i think i still find NFs more attractive... admittedly communication can be problematic when things get tough and personal, but it brings interesting challenges and i'd like to get better at figuring them out.
> 
> i'm not sure what do you mean by no opinions... no thoughts or no preferences?
> 
> i have a hard time with preferences. took me years to decide my favorite colors and it still changes. i vote for my rep based on which party i think is less likely to win so that the coalition has less power and the top-down changes or change-prevention is less capable. i like scotch and i like wine but i wouldn't want to have to pick one permanently. suits slim me down and pronounce my shoulders and are easier to go commando in, but jeans make my ass look better and go better with V neck shirts. how am i supposed to choose between liking jeans over suit? this entire line of questions always feel really awkward.


1. I think gender role socialization might play a part in this. I'm female and you're male and the way each of us views characteristics of a potential mate is influenced at least partly by those gender roles. Women are more often feelers, and men more thinkers. I know that the male T/F split is 50/50 btw but they are socialize otherwise. I associate being thinking dominant with masculinity thus more attractive. I won't say I couldnt date an NF, but I dislike the diplomatic aspect of them. It works in friendships, but in a relationship, I have a tendency to get really pissed off when someone tries to pull the "lets all get along" card. I'd need someone to side with cold hard rational thinking. Its what I like. I'd prefer an NT to all of the others, but I'd take an ST before an NF. I know people are not all the same and blah blah blah....but if were just talking about letters here.....this is what I'd prefer.

2. I didn't say he didn't have preferences. Oh he didn't like what he liked, he loved it. He's one of those people that doesn't grow out of anything and will sit on a sinking ship even when liking a certain thing is harmful. 

What I meant is that he never had his own damn opinion about anything. His whole persona was stolen. The jokes he made, opinions he had, were picked up (word for word, mind you) from somewhere else. I would hear stuff on the repeats of the talk radio he listened to and they would say things that I heard him say word for word days earlier. His jokes were all ripped off. All of them. All of them. Word for word. He wore the brand of clothes that his favorite childhood band wore simple because he saw them in it. Everything he was, was tied back to one of the 3 main this he liked. He was extremely impressionable. I really didn't like that. Were all impressionable to a degree but he had the word locked down.

Not saying all Sensor Feelers are like that.

I'd also like to add that I too can't decide on things that I like. I know what I dislike the best. I don't have a favorite color, but I know its not pink. I also don't have a favorite food or show but I know its not Gossip girl and french onion soup.

I've found that I have to have to have one of the middle letters in common with someone to spend a long period of time around them. We mesh better. I don't have a problem with Sensors, or Feelers, or Perceivers. But when that all combines, it becomes too much for me.


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## traceur (Jan 19, 2012)

Chipps said:


> What I meant is that he never had his own damn opinion about anything. His whole persona was stolen. The jokes he made, opinions he had, were picked up (word for word, mind you) from somewhere else. I would hear stuff on the repeats of the talk radio he listened to and they would say things that I heard him say word for word days earlier. His jokes were all ripped off. All of them. All of them. Word for word. He wore the brand of clothes that his favorite childhood band wore simple because he saw them in it. Everything he was, was tied back to one of the 3 main this he liked. He was extremely impressionable. I really didn't like that. Were all impressionable to a degree but he had the word locked down.


that's... funny. i mean i can't stop laughing... i know i shouldn't, or at least shouldn't tell you this given its the internet and i have every capacity to hide it, and i am sure finding this out was very disappointing and possible painful and even humiliating - a sense of being fooled... and being midst a painful divorce i am the last person who should laugh at anyone's relationship mishaps...

but you fall for with a copymachine sending you... other people's signals. talk about pirating.



Chipps said:


> I've found that I have to have to have one of the middle letters in common with someone to spend a long period of time around them. We mesh better. I don't have a problem with Sensors, or Feelers, or Perceivers. But when that all combines, it becomes too much for me.


i agree. though lately i've being thinking that a relationship with an INFP or an ENFJ might be nice.

and going on with pretending to ignore the fallacy @armika_armika noticed: i've also had a very good friendship with an ENFP. and she did use to always complain about me not being a woman... i should try that out with an ENFP who isn't a lesbian.


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## Toru Okada (May 10, 2011)

You might be able to use it as a general ballpark, but every individual is the exception. Also, cognitive functions are just an indicator as to how a person typically perceives things and makes decisions. Mistypings. Types don't take interests and goals into account.


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

Because everyone is different? Sometimes I use MBTI to help me understand the person, but I would never date based on MBTI. 

Though I must say, some types sound more attractive to me than others.


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## traceur (Jan 19, 2012)

corgiflatmate said:


> One of my closest friends is an ESFP.


i realize this doesn't apply, but after what i've said, this should probably be my line:
Some of My Best Friends Are SFs (TV thrope)


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

traceur said:


> that's... funny. i mean i can't stop laughing... i know i shouldn't, or at least shouldn't tell you this given its the internet and i have every capacity to hide it, and i am sure finding this out was very disappointing and possible painful and even humiliating - a sense of being fooled... and being midst a painful divorce i am the last person who should laugh at anyone's relationship mishaps...
> 
> but you fall for with a copymachine sending you... other people's signals. talk about pirating.
> 
> ...


1. I'd like an STP, NTJ, or NTP
2. I was pissed off and shocked. Though there were red flags, that I'll pay more attention to next time. And to add injury to insult he stuck around because he thought he couldn't find anyone else. Hello emo-low self esteem ISFP. Lets say it was a learning experience. It will NEVER happen again. 
3. If I was a lesbian, I'd have a bunch of women. I wonder how lesbian ENTJ women do.


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## traceur (Jan 19, 2012)

Chipps said:


> 1. I'd like an STP, NTJ, or NTP


 interesting absence... if you'd like an STP why not an STJ? wouldn't dominant-T/secondary-S work better for you?

an army buddy of mine was an ESTJ... obviously what creates a bond is a little bit different, and i am somewhat biased towards someone who saved my ass repeatedly, but he was amazingly reliable, very decent guy, and when i was going through my "why the fuck are we doing this" semi-existential catch-22 style crisis, he was there to pull me back to earth.



Chipps said:


> 3. If I was a lesbian, I'd have a bunch of women.


sounds familiar... i think i've seen that movie.


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## themartyparade (Nov 7, 2010)

'cause MBTI doesn't tell you everything about a person, it doesn't tell you who this person is, it just tells you how he/she functions and that is not enough to base on whether you should date them or not. Everybody's different and handle relationships differently, just 'cause it didn't work out with said type first time doesn't mean it never will.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

traceur said:


> interesting absence... if you'd like an STP why not an STJ? wouldn't dominant-T/secondary-S work better for you?
> 
> an army buddy of mine was an ESTJ... obviously what creates a bond is a little bit different, and i am somewhat biased towards someone who saved my ass repeatedly, but he was amazingly reliable, very decent guy, and when i was going through my "why the fuck are we doing this" semi-existential catch-22 style crisis, he was there to pull me back to earth.
> 
> ...


Edit....STJ are cool too but I think N/S might clash with two TJs. If I ever become the boss of a crime family, I would reserve the spot of enforcer to the the STJs.

Though, maybe and ESTJ wouldn't be so bad. I have a vagina and we all know that can be quite persuasive. My N might override that S after all. Lol. 


I would also imagine a lot of them to be in the armed forces. I feel like they are good people as long as they are on your side. Nothing is worse than having to go head to head with another ETJ. I'd try to convince him/her that we'd be so much stronger if we were on the same side....even if that side is mine.


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## quadrivium (Nov 6, 2011)

traceur said:


> i realize this doesn't apply, but after what i've said, this should probably be my line:
> Some of My Best Friends Are SFs (TV thrope)


Well I don't know about SFs. I do know for whatever reason I am very partial to female SPs; most of my close friends are SPs.


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## traceur (Jan 19, 2012)

Chipps said:


> I would also imagine a lot of them to be in the armed forces. I feel like they are good people as long as they are on your side. Nothing is worse than having to go head to head with another ETJ. I'd try to convince him/her that we'd be so much stronger if we were on the same side....even if that side is mine.


hard to tell based on my anecdote israel - forced draft... 

but i have to admit i am warming up to the idea of other NTs... maybe it wouldn't be as intense of a journey of self discovery etc', but... i get ot have the confidence that a rational argument about a presumption gone wrong isn't going to be answered with the words "that doesn't change how i feel" (because of the presumption).. something easy going, without all the impatient treatment of subjective miss communications sucking the life out of you. just knowing that whenever there's a conflict, your both trying to achieve the same goal - bringing all the factors and possibilities and interpretations down to the same objective plane... not having all that pressure of getting into someone else's mind...

it would be an attractive change of pace.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

traceur said:


> hard to tell based on my anecdote israel - forced draft...
> 
> but i have to admit i am warming up to the idea of other NTs... maybe it wouldn't be as intense of a journey of self discovery etc', but... i get ot have the confidence that a rational argument about a presumption gone wrong isn't going to be answered with the words "that doesn't change how i feel" (because of the presumption).. something easy going, without all the impatient treatment of subjective miss communications sucking the life out of you. just knowing that whenever there's a conflict, your both trying to achieve the same goal - bringing all the factors and possibilities and interpretations down to the same objective plane... not having all that pressure of getting into someone else's mind...
> 
> it would be an attractive change of pace.


I'd also like to try out another NT. I have yet to do so. I'm only 22 so the first guy I dated was probably an SF and so was the second. I'm avoiding that now. I've learned what I really want now, so I'm looking for someone who is on my same wavelength. It would be nice to have someone agree with your logic, no? Im pretty vocal in a relationship but if someone said, this is why this is ridiculous and it made sense, I'd agree. My actual feelings RARELY get hurt. Very rarely. I was watching a Youtube video of an INTJ/ENTJ and she mentioned how F is subjective while T is objective. I think she was right. I don't mind feelings per se, but its the selfishness of it all. They use a subjective scale to make decisions that include other people. That pisses me off. 

My ex SFP would come to me with a problem. I'd tell him he had two choices A or B and he'd get mad at me because I offered him a solution rather than empathizing with him. What the hell is that? I'm mean seriously. If you implement the solutions, they problem goes away and thus the feelings go away. Then I realized the problem....it was devoid of logic. Ick!

What was the type of the woman you're referring to if you don't mind?


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## Azure Bass (Sep 6, 2010)

It's like trying to use a description that my friend made for me, or having a friend set me up on a date. It's not genuine, it's not originally mine and from my understanding it's a way to sell myself short in terms of someones' perception of me. The MBTI is supposed to gauge 10 of our personal preference. To base that little on so much of ourselves is a bias that I am not up to the task of doing. I don't want to be disillusioned so why would I support it?

This goes for the potential partner too.


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## traceur (Jan 19, 2012)

Chipps said:


> What was the type of the woman you're referring to if you don't mind?


the "my wrong presumption doesn't change how it made me feel" woman? my ex wife - INFJ.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

traceur said:


> the "my wrong presumption doesn't change how it made me feel" woman? my ex wife - INFJ.


I've heard that ENTJs and INFJs would make a good match. I disagree with that. I've had INFJ friends and I will steam roll right over them without even realizing it only for them erupt in anger when they feel like they aren't being considered. Then I resent their anger because all they had to do was stop me ahead of time instead of waiting for it to boil over. 

I'd feel like I would constantly be walking around on eggshells trying not to upset them. That would be tiring.


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## traceur (Jan 19, 2012)

Chipps said:


> I've heard that ENTJs and INFJs would make a good match. I disagree with that. I've had INFJ friends and I will steam roll right over them without even realizing it only for them erupt in anger when they feel like they aren't being considered. Then I resent their anger because all they had to do was stop me ahead of time instead of waiting for it to boil over.
> 
> I'd feel like I would constantly be walking around on eggshells trying not to upset them. That would be tiring.


you think that's redicules?

my ex wife was mad at me that i didn't didn't try to build bridges at the exact same time that she missed me and wanted me back, and she couldn't actually come out and tell me that she does because that would have devalued the gesture of me doing it, nor did she stop blocking me on lines and building walls, because that would have devalued the gesture of me jumping over them... after she asked me not too.

and i have about a thousand different examples

the sheer amount of frustration in having to deal with those kind of things... just... relationships can't all be like that.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Chipps said:


> Oh no, he was a confirmed ISFP. My boss is also one. And because we live in an S/F world, I've met quite a few of them to know that, while we can be friends, there is a certain depth that is lacking there.


That's pretty weird that you say an ISFP lacked depth, because I honestly feel sometimes that Te doms lack depth because of their rejection of Fi and have weird, shallow appraisals of other people.

So it's obviously a perception issue due to one another's rejected functions. 

I don't feel this with all NTJs, though. Mostly ones who seem very socially immature.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Olena said:


> \
> 
> It's common.
> 
> ...


There can be truth to this. I thought at one point that I was an ENFP and I should be with an INTJ...only to find to my surprise (first of all that I'm obviously an Se/Ni type than an Ne/Si type) that this wasn't the case at all, it was MUCH easier for me to hang out and talk to and feel *somewhat* understood by an ISTJ, instead.

I also kept saying after that how much I loved Js: ITJs and SFJs...only to currently be faced with an ISTP a decade younger than me who reads into my sexual psychology without even asking me. I've never had a man just intuitively almost pick scenarios out of my brain and know it would be "okay" or a turn on to me for him to do that...he also seems to have just as much capacity as a TJ to "bounce back" from my emo shitfits, as long as I'm not being unhealthy and directing garbage at him in a maladjusted way that would wear his poor inferior Fe out (while an unhealthy SFJ might even *enable* my bullcrap because they'd be all like goodie I can take care of you and own you now).

Besides, all relationships don't end in marriage, she could have a relationship that didn't lead to a lifelong commitment with this guy, but still enjoy it and learn from it, which is why it's okay to leave yourself "open" to dating a type that isn't prescribed as being compatible in the book.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Chipps said:


> 1. I'd like an STP


Interesting, especially giving the fact that ESTPs are Se DOMS with all kinds of icky tertiary Fe to oppose your dom Te. 

It seems that you're holding Fi as the culprit for you ex "having no opinions" which is odd, giving that Fi tends to be a very intensely values-oriented function. What you seem to be complaining about is undeveloped Ni and Te, perhaps, which is why you felt he had "no original thoughts" in your world view, because Te and Ni are your dom functions.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

snail said:


> I think knowing your partner's type is important, because if you have a pattern of consistently having relationship problems with a certain type, and if that pattern of relationship disasters happens because of type-related incompatible needs, then the best thing to do would be to avoid making the same mistake again. That's why I don't date INTPs anymore. The vast majority of my failed relationships have been with INTPs, and those relationships always seem to fall apart the same way. I have learned a hard lesson over time about what I need from my partners, and what I need them not to be like. The same people who are toxic for me would probably be perfect for someone else, but I definitely think a person's type can make him clash with me romantically.
> 
> Knowing what you want in a relationship is a good thing. There is such a thing as a "wrong type" for some of us, but that being said, don't be discouraged by what the books say. While a relationship with your exact opposite is probably the most challenging kind of relationship you could possibly attempt, sometimes such relationships work if both partners are equally committed to making the necessary compromises. Individual will-power can override some forms of incompatibility if you are in love.


I agree that it's important to know your partner's type so you can manage your differences with knowledge of their different world view and needs, and realize that with some people it seems to be consistently unmanageable for whatever reason. 

This is absolutely key to my development as a human being in not taking things personally, simply understanding that people have different needs and strengths than I do, and if they do "x" it doesn't necessarily mean the same thing to them that doing "x" would mean to me.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

traceur said:


> you think that's redicules?
> 
> my ex wife was mad at me that i didn't didn't try to build bridges at the exact same time that she missed me and wanted me back, and she couldn't actually come out and tell me that she does because that would have devalued the gesture of me doing it, nor did she stop blocking me on lines and building walls, because that would have devalued the gesture of me jumping over them... after she asked me not too.
> 
> ...


Thats so frustrating. My ISFP ex would never tell me what he thought or how he felt like I couldn't take the damn truth. He'd avoid it then text it to like a child. Yes, he'd leave then I'd get a text specifically telling me what was wrong. I just couldnt take that shit seriously. 

I think it comes down to the fact that people like drama in relationships. Saying things direct apparently ruins things. I don't see how though. I think of it like a business deal. Its much more efficient to be upfront.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

fourtines said:


> That's pretty weird that you say an ISFP lacked depth, because I honestly feel sometimes that Te doms lack depth because of their rejection of Fi and have weird, shallow appraisals of other people.
> 
> So it's obviously a perception issue due to one another's rejected functions.
> 
> I don't feel this with all NTJs, though. Mostly ones who seem very socially immature.


_Say whaaaaaaat_?

I think it does come down to perception. It seems SF value depth of feeling and NTs value the depth of thoughts. Its how I think about it. I'm not socially immature, I simple don't care to follow the social rules. I don't like being forced to behave a certain way. Like its been mentioned on other threads we live in a world full of Sensors and Feelers, thus social rules have been developed for this majority. It doesn't suit me so I don't subscribe to it. I respect the reasons the rules exist (as they provide a natural order) but I'll follow them long enough to get what I want then go back to doing what it is that I do. 

And I can't speak for all NTJs but I have a very deep heart. I just don't wear it on my sleeve. I only open it up to very select people. I have to really trust someone to tell them about how I really feel. Its a sign that you've made it into my in rungs. Which is a big deal.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

fourtines said:


> Interesting, especially giving the fact that ESTPs are Se DOMS with all kinds of icky tertiary Fe to oppose your dom Te.
> 
> It seems that you're holding Fi as the culprit for you ex "having no opinions" which is odd, giving that Fi tends to be a very intensely values-oriented function. What you seem to be complaining about is undeveloped Ni and Te, perhaps, which is why you felt he had "no original thoughts" in your world view, because Te and Ni are your dom functions.


As long as those "unorignial thoughts" or values are in line with mine we could get along. I work with an STP. He's christian, republican (hard right wing), and I'd prefer a atheist, moderate, but we get along quite well. Our values are different, but we have fun when were together. The values would obviously turn into a problem which is why would could never go out (I think we both acknowledge it), but if they were the same, I think we'd do just fine. Maybe an STP wouldn't be the holy grail, but it would work better than an SFJ or SFP. 

Like I said, if we have an interior letter in common, I can get along quite well with them. I vibe better with NTs, STs or NFs. I don't see the problem with it. Sensors are not inherently bad or anything.

Edit:

I'd like to add, ISTP. not ESTP.


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## knittigan (Sep 2, 2011)

fourtines said:


> That's pretty weird that you say an ISFP lacked depth, because I honestly feel sometimes that Te doms lack depth because of their rejection of Fi and have weird, shallow appraisals of other people.
> 
> So it's obviously a perception issue due to one another's rejected functions.
> 
> I don't feel this with all NTJs, though. Mostly ones who seem very socially immature.


I found that comment odd, too. I hate the Ns-are-deep/Ss-are-shallow crap because it's so arbitrary and subjective, but in terms of what I personally understand to be depth, the SFPs I've known have been remarkably deep people. I don't doubt that this has to do with our shared functions (especially Ni-Se/Se-Ni), but I still find it to be quite interesting in spite of the stereotypes.

On-topic: I really agree with this.



fourtines said:


> TBesides, all relationships don't end in marriage, she could have a relationship that didn't lead to a lifelong commitment with this guy, but still enjoy it and learn from it, which is why it's okay to leave yourself "open" to dating a type that isn't prescribed as being compatible in the book.


I have a couple of ESFPs in my life and while I don't know if I could be married to one (I find them draining, if quite fascinating, creatures), I've probably learned more from them than from any other personality type. If I met an ESFP that I was interested in who had similar values, I'd definitely be interested in dating them. Whether or not we'd be together forvever, I don't know, but I don't think that that's necessarily the best measure of whether or not a relationship is successful.


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## traceur (Jan 19, 2012)

Chipps said:


> My ISFP ex would never tell me what he thought or how he felt like I couldn't take the damn truth. He'd avoid it then text it to like a child.


exactly that... i treated me ex like she could and that ended up biting my ass. if you can't trust a person to handle what you think, to tell you what they think without having to dig it out.. to go with you through the mental processes... communication becomes one giant chess game where you have to stop and think 20 steps ahead, there's no letting them in on undigested thoughts, there's no raw sharing of what's going on as it's going on. and that sharing of information? god damn it that's what intimacy is made of. i know they say NTs are distant but IMO it's exactly this sort of thing that creates distance in relationships.

and i just realized: 

Ne leading Ni, Fe leading Fi
Te leading TI, Se leading Si

all opposite functions, exactly one space in difference. 

huh. interesting.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Chipps said:


> _Say whaaaaaaat_?


Yeah you don't like it when it's reversed, do you? I'll bet you're_ totally_ mature since your own hypocrisy comes as such a shock to you. 



> I think it does come down to perception. It seems SF value depth of feeling and NTs value the depth of thoughts. Its how I think about it. I'm not socially immature, I simple don't care to follow the social rules. I don't like being forced to behave a certain way. Like its been mentioned on other threads we live in a world full of Sensors and Feelers, thus social rules have been developed for this majority. It doesn't suit me so I don't subscribe to it. I respect the reasons the rules exist (as they provide a natural order) but I'll follow them long enough to get what I want then go back to doing what it is that I do.
> 
> And I can't speak for all NTJs but I have a very deep heart. I just don't wear it on my sleeve. I only open it up to very select people. I have to really trust someone to tell them about how I really feel. Its a sign that you've made it into my in rungs. Which is a big deal.


Yeah perceptions are differently, and if you were very young when you were with your ISFP boyfriend, it's possible that you both lived primarily in your dom/aux functions, leading to greater conflict than those with greater function development.


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## traceur (Jan 19, 2012)

fourtines said:


> Yeah you don't like it when


...you both have cats in your avatars?

your leading @Chipps on into a cat fight, with cats in your avatars, and, within a huge cat metaphor, your targeting her social aptitude for maturity, in response to.. basically seen your own tail wiggle and mistaking it for a snake.

...i'm just saying... this is magnificent! 

is this my spiritual expirience to take me off tea pot agnosticism? is this the deities of karma telling me "sorry you spent the last few years having lived in a world where conflicts and their emotional outcomes knew no proportions, our bad, now you deserve to witness this glory"? ow is this all about me mister universe? will now my values become divine truths where what i magically know moral absolutes and everyone else is wrong? will now everyone's maturity be dictated by how much of the mental changes and processes they have gone through and learned in their life happen to coincidentally correspond with mine? will my intuition never miss a possibility and the variables in my conclusions all encompassing and omnipotent? am i transcending to a higher plane of existence? a comicbook world where MBTIs grants us super powers? and can i, gods of karma, can i please reincarnate as a godzilla-farting whale?


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

traceur said:


> ...you both have cats in your avatars?
> 
> your leading @Chipps on into a cat fight, with cats in your avatars, and, within a huge cat metaphor, your targeting her social aptitude for maturity, in response to.. basically seen your own tail wiggle and mistaking it for a snake.


NO she said that she thought ISFPs lacked depth, and I said I don't like NTJs when they're socially immature, and I've noticed quite a few of them applying bizarre, shallow analysis to other human beings.

It wasn't a personal attack on her, just an exchange on personal perspectives. I even clarified that I don't feel this way about all NTJs...to which her response was a smart-alecky "say whaaaaaat?" and a defensive description of how socially mature she is. 



> ...i'm just saying... this is magnificent!


You're trolling me. Is there any rational excuse for your behavior?




> is this my spiritual expirience to take me off tea pot agnosticism? is this the deities of karma telling me "sorry you spent the last few years having lived in a world where conflicts and their emotional outcomes knew no proportions, our bad, now you deserve to witness this glory"? ow is this all about me mister universe? will now my values become divine truths where what i magically know moral absolutes and everyone else is wrong? will now everyone's maturity be dictated by how much of the mental changes and processes they have gone through and learned in their life happen to coincidentally correspond with mine? will my intuition never miss a possibility and the variables in my conclusions all encompassing and omnipotent? am i transcending to a higher plane of existence? a comicbook world where MBTIs grants us super powers? and can i, gods of karma, can i please reincarnate as a godzilla-farting whale?


Seriously, bro, go away.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

fourtines said:


> Yeah you don't like it when it's reversed, do you? I'll bet you're_ totally_ mature since your own hypocrisy comes as such a shock to you.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah perceptions are differently, and if you were very young when you were with your ISFP boyfriend, it's possible that you both lived primarily in your dom/aux functions, leading to greater conflict than those with greater function development.


Hm...whats the big deal? I don't get it. Why you're going to bat for SFs that is. Its just my opinion. 

I've met dozens upon dozens of them. All different walks of life, and yet, I still dont have as much in common as I do with other types. Its not like a Sensing Feeler is hard to come by or rare at all. I've met more than my fair share, so I think I can make accurate assessment of how I interact with them. The relationships I've had with them have been superficial....to me. We don't bond the way that I'd like to. 

Maturity is not something that can be defined concretely, so saying that X is mature and Y is not is a matter of opinion. I thought I was joking, but hey, whatever.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

@traceur

I only have a cat in my avatar because the caption made me lol. I prefer dogs to cats any day.


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## Runvardh (May 17, 2011)

Because a four and a half year dry spell can make a guy want to consider any girl with the right set of qualities within acceptable tolerance...

(I'll let the low standards joke slide)


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## traceur (Jan 19, 2012)

fourtines said:


> Is there any rational excuse for your behavior?


my near irrational optimism, and because i caught on to your pattern.

now, follow me through here, you've read:


Chipps said:


> Oh no, he was a confirmed ISFP. My boss is also one. And because we live in an S/F world, I've met quite a few of them to know that, while we can be friends, there is a certain depth that is lacking there. Now, I will admit that my ISFP ex was unhealthy. But my boss isn't and that same "thing" is there. I have a friend who is an SFP and I like him, but I can't say I respect him. The things that I deem as respectable are not things that he possess.


and concluded:


fourtines said:


> NO she said that she thought ISFPs lacked depth



now try again, with narrating:


Chipps said:


> Oh no, he was a confirmed ISFP. My boss is also one. And because we live in an S/F world, I've met quite a few of them to know that, while we can be friends, there is a certain depth [/COLOR/]that is lacking there




_this is where we stop to ask: 
_where? person? interaction? which one did we she mean? this is exciting, like a thrilling book. we know something's missing there for her, and its characterized by the word depth, but where is it missing? do we stop and assume - answer it our selves regardless of what's to come - or do we wonder and go on reading? 



Chipps said:


> Now, I will admit that my ISFP ex was unhealthy. But my boss isn't and that same "thing" is there. I have a friend who is an SFP and I like him, but I can't say I respect him. The things that I deem


we found another clue! what she finds lacking is a thing that she deems, and in other people. what can we deem in other people? what we get from that.

now that we caught on, let's go back and apply it:


Chipps said:


> Oh no, he was a confirmed ISFP. My boss is also one. And because we live in an S/F world, I've met quite a few of them to know that, while we can be friends, there is a certai thing that I deem as depth that is lacking there


so, is she telling us that SFPs lack depth, as people? that she has read their minds and witnessed their inner beings? scanned them cell by cell and found no depth? are there any indication that she is? telepathy? fMRI? any of those words popping out from her post? its possible she forgot to mention those, in which case she forgot to mention the basis of her entire argument. but before we determine that its the case, let's look at other alternatives:

is she telling us that she isn't getting from them what she deems as depth? if this is the case, then everything behind it is right there, in her words, we need no further presumptions. 

the most likely interpretation: she made am observation about her own interaction with SFPs, not about the SFPs.

in which case, there's nothing for you to go "not so nice when its done to you" about, unless your particularly want to refer to what you don't get from your interaction with NTJs...

_____________________

yes, the specifics of the way i showed you the conclusion are Ne, Ti and Fe related, but the basic behind it isn't: this shouldn't need an outside narration to tell anyone to be patient for a milisecond, just enough to go on reading on, before making a conclusive decision on what someone is actually saying. it shouldn't take any meaningful mental time or effort.

rather, this is prime knowledge in human communication: that when people communicate they are shifting between their own semantic maps and the semantic maps they are associating with you. there is a discrete process of translation between conceptual languages whenever someone opens their mouth or writes a text, and it is happening alongside the actual expression process. which is why you always need a degree of patience. really, what are a few miliseconds of thought when compared to full seconds and minutes of arguing and getting offended by bullshit that wasn't there?

99.999% you'll ignore this, some guy in the internet probably a decade younger then you telling you that you don't know something so fundamental? how dare he condescend me! 

but the 0.001% in the probable futures, there's a smarter fourtines enjoying a healthier life with less things offending her sensibilities when they had no reason too, more likely to be capable of deeper (elbow jab intended) communication with people of a larger diversity of mindsets, and receiving more interesting feedback and thoughts from people around her in general, enriching her life.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

@_traceur_ , actually you and I are about the same age...so very interesting that I come across as ten years older than you, in your perception. 

I'm also reporting your post. I'm serious when I say go away, you are a fucking troll.


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## GoodOldDreamer (Sep 8, 2011)

Well, the best relationship I've had was with an ISFP, and the worst was with an ESTP, for whatever it matters, but I wouldn't even consider MBTI type until I was already well into a relationship, so it doesn't really matter to me. It's more about values and character for me that helps me determine whether to date someone or not, or to continue an initiated relationship with them.

MBTI can help in certain ways, but you can't really depend on it much until you already know quite a bit about a person.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Chipps said:


> Hm...whats the big deal? I don't get it. Why you're going to bat for SFs that is. Its just my opinion.


I'm not going to bat for SFs I was explaining my perspective of Te doms, and yes, they come across as socially immature to me at times.

I was basically demonstrating the difference between our perceptions, that I often perceive NTJs the way you seem to perceive SFPs and I'm not sure how this became a personal issue for you, or even something to disagree with.



> I've met dozens upon dozens of them. All different walks of life, and yet, I still dont have as much in common as I do with other types. Its not like a Sensing Feeler is hard to come by or rare at all. I've met more than my fair share, so I think I can make accurate assessment of how I interact with them. The relationships I've had with them have been superficial....to me. We don't bond the way that I'd like to.


And by the same token, I think I can make an accurate assessment of how well I interact with Te doms, and how superficial NTJs in particular can seem to me in their assessments of people. This has nothing to do with you, but something I noticed slowly over time not only through individual NTJs, but by hanging out on the hell that is INTJforum. 



> Maturity is not something that can be defined concretely, so saying that X is mature and Y is not is a matter of opinion. I thought I was joking, but hey, whatever.


You seem to think this conversation is personal, and you seem to be intent on defending yourself as "mature" as an ENTJ and how NTJs are "mature" and just reject social rules, and yet you say you are joking.

I ironically think I was being more rational here than you were, and you misunderstood what I said as being somehow personal and directed toward you, and I don't even know you.

Also note that you seem to think all SFs use the same functions, and likewise for NTs. I am trying to discuss things in terms of functions like Se, Fi, Ti and Te and you're not engaging with that at all and just randomly commenting on all the "SFs" you know...which may be why you don't understand the point I am specifically getting at.


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## traceur (Jan 19, 2012)

fourtines said:


> @_traceur_ , actually you and I are about the same age...so very interesting that I come across as ten years older than you, in your perception.
> 
> I'm also reporting your post. I'm serious when I say go away, you are a fucking troll.


so when you post inflammatory comments, called her immature to feel good about yourself or tell me to GTFO like it's your backyard because you don't like what i have to say, then its constructive critisizm, but when i prove to you that you are doing a bad job at understanding what people express, and actually show you how to fix that so that you don't have too... its trolling? is that the sort of thinking you expect from the mods? you've being here longer, who knows maybe that's what they do.


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## traceur (Jan 19, 2012)

Chipps said:


> @traceur
> 
> I only have a cat in my avatar because the caption made me lol. I prefer dogs to cats any day.


i like them both... get more attached to dogs though.

the visual of the situation was still funny


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

traceur said:


> i like them both... get more attached to dogs though.
> 
> the visual of the situation was still funny


Cats are quite amusing, but I too get super attached to dogs. Give me a puppy and Ill have a buddy for life.


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## alphacat (Mar 17, 2011)

I'm certainly a dog person, so I'm not sure why both my username and avatar contain cats.

Regardless, I love them both, in fact, I love animal in general. I find kids, especially babies disgusting, loud, annoying, and overall unpleasant. I often catch myself stopping in my track on the street to admire a cute dog, whereas, babies generally make me cringe.

PS. I'm not sure how this thread turned into a flame war surrounding the SFs, regardless, I like the new direction of this thread...


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## armika_armika (Nov 11, 2011)

@fourtines, you're brilliant, thank you!

little bit OT but I found this about intj's and esfp's:

First, to dispel a myth — ESFP is *not* the opposite of INTJ; it’s the “inverse” or “complement” of INTJ. This is because they share the same top four preferred cognitive processes. (The true “opposite” of INTJ is ENTP!)
It seems that INTJ and ESFP are often attracted to each other and many wonder why. Let’s look at the Cognitive Process mappings of each, along with the archetypes (positive aspect; negative aspect) representing each Cognitive Process:


INTJ ESFP 
 Ni Se Leading; Dominating
 Te Fi Supporting; Overprotective
 Fi Te Relief; Unsettling
 Se Ni Aspirational; Projective
 Ne Si Backup; Opposing
 Ti Fe Discovery; Critical
 Fe Ti Comedic; Deceiving
 Si Ne Transformative; Devilish

So in the case of an INTJ interacting with an ESFP, there’s mutual admiration for each other’s “Leading” Cognitive Process, since it represents the “Aspirational” of the other. However, problems can occur if the Leading Cognitive Process becomes too “Dominating” and/or the aspirational Cognitive Process begins to become “Projective”.
The second Cognitive Process of each is “Supporting” and offers “Relief” for the other, but could become problematic if the supporting role becomes “Overprotective”, leading to an “Unsettling” reaction in the other.
Both INTJ and ESFP have common blind spots when using Ne, Ti, Fe and Si. Since these four Cognitive Processes are all in the shadow of both, real problems can occur when circumstances force their use, since neither type prefers them.


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## viva (Aug 13, 2010)

Why not use MBTI to find a partner?

Because if you do, you could dismiss the love of your life without a second thought.


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## WickedQueen (Jun 1, 2009)

armika_armika said:


> Next week I'll be going on a date with a guy who was INTJ (he did only one test, but I think it's correct most of the time, but he said he also had some istj traits). So, I googled intj+esfp and gosh, found like a million arguments to why we shouldnt even meet
> INTJ's seem to loathe esfp!
> But I think he seems very nice, we have just been emailing so far, but I really like his style. Seems like he finds me interesting too, and he said I seem a little bit crazy and that he likes that.


My ESFP Mom and INTJ Dad have been together for more than 50 years. Conflicts happened, but as they grew old together, they have reached their tolerant level and seem at ease with each other's flaws. I don't think they can live without each other. When one of them died some day, I would worry about the mental stability of the living one.


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## armika_armika (Nov 11, 2011)

WickedQueen said:


> My ESFP Mom and INTJ Dad have been together for more than 50 years. Conflicts happened, but as they grew old together, they have reached their tolerant level and seem at ease with each other's flaws. I don't think they can live without each other. When one of them died some day, I would worry about the mental stability of the living one.


Thats such a wonderful thing to hear, two people being together for such along time, no matter of what types they are. Makes the romantic part of me so happy!

I also think conflicts are a natural part of all relationship, to some extent. The same way as it is impossible to always be happy and feel good, it's impossible for a relationship to always be flawless and perfect.


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## armika_armika (Nov 11, 2011)

viva said:


> Why not use MBTI to find a partner?
> 
> Because if you do, you could dismiss the love of your life without a second thought.


Totally agree!


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## Femmefatale (Feb 22, 2012)

I think you can use it as a guideline to recognize difficulties in past and present relationships. Not determine future ones.
I apply it to recognize where things went wrong with my two psycho ex ISTX (1 P and 1 J). They didn't really care or understood my values. But they pretended to for their own goals. As soon as things got tough they gave up or played dead. 

The ISTJ tried to force me to let go of my need for other people than him. In the process he alienated himself from his whole circle of online/RL friends.

The ISTP stopped showing appreciation openly as soon as he had bagged me. Put no effort in anything unless he got something out of it. I confronted him with this recently and he actually told me that all the values he had portrayed to me was based on the beliefs of the household he grew up in. But he had no feelings for helping others. Also he had been told by a psychiatrist that he had thought him to be a psychopath as a child (sociopath). I find this one more unsettling that my ISTJ ex, because this one actually made physical attacks on me on several occassions. As the ISTJ "only" threatened to kill me, but never laid a hand on me.

In other words the ISTJ was openly batshit crazy as the ISTP hid his lack of empathy as long as he needed me. He only confessed these things to me now that he wasn't in any remote danger of losing face and got something from telling it. 

I'm currently involved with someone I've considered to be an ESTJ. My complete opposite. Knowing where we're going wrong of each other all the time has given me perspective. Reading from textbook examples have made me suddenly see what he's been trying to tell me in a new light. Our values are similar and that's what matters in this case, I believe. If our values wasn't the same, we'd have no chance of working. But that is not the case here. And I believe him to be one of the truest and beautiful people I've ever met. Might just be my naive soul getting fooled once more. But I've trusted him as much as I could trust someone at this point - which is more than I've ever trusted anyone.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Femmefatale said:


> I think you can use it as a guideline to recognize difficulties in past and present relationships. Not determine future ones.
> I apply it to recognize where things went wrong with my two psycho ex ISTX (1 P and 1 J). They didn't really care or understood my values. But they pretended to for their own goals. As soon as things got tough they gave up or played dead.
> 
> The ISTJ tried to force me to let go of my need for other people than him. In the process he alienated himself from his whole circle of online/RL friends.
> ...


While ISTPs may be more likely to have Antisocial personality disorder than ESFPs, who may be more inclined to be Borderline or Histrionic, what you're saying about that ISTP has NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM BEING AN ISTP AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH HIM EITHER BEING AN ORGANIC PSYCHOPATH OR HAVING ANTISOCIAL PERSONALITY DISORDER.


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## traceur (Jan 19, 2012)

Chipps said:


> Cats are quite amusing, but I too get super attached to dogs. Give me a puppy and Ill have a buddy for life.


if i had to choose i'd probably go with a dog, but there's almost always a way to eat the cake and leave it too: i've had a cat and a dog that grow up together, played together, the cat even joined in on walks. they where very good friends in everything but food and that just takes putting the cat food where the dog can't reach it.

and trying to bring this whole thing around: 

-- i f cats are Ne dom & Si aux
and dogs are Se dom & Ni aux

how would the dynamic between a dog & cat work?

edit:
_ on one hand i know that Ne/Ni, when both dominant, can be freaking awesome in mutual inspiration and brainstorming, and initially there's a spark of "wow she/he gets me and gives me stuff i never thought of", but it provides no long term admiration because the strength there is very similar both being dominant functions, eventually you forget about it and take it for granted. so hypothetically, the interaction between someone whose Ne dom and someone whose Ni aux could provide admiration towards the Ne bearer - the cat. 
and on the same level, the same dynamic would apply to to Se and Si, providing a matching mutual admiration towards the dog. and yet the difference between them is never more then one space, there's never any level in which you can look down on the other.

you would have both mutual inspiration and mutual admiration between the cat & dog.
but on the other hand: all the cat's mental functions are in the dog's shadow functions and vise versa.
would that means they'd bring the worst out of each other or compensate for each other's lacks?
_

and yes, this is a thinly disguised question about ENTP/ENTJ dynamics.


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## rednet2 (Jun 25, 2010)

You can use it, but there are a lot of ways to mess it up. In fact, it's so easy to mess up that most people are better off not using it.

*Mistypings*
The number of people who can accurately type someone on sight are a minority. You can't accurately type someone on sight unless you've actually met several others of the same type and gender (I have a firm belief that gender (or the societal pressures associated with it) affects the expression of type). Even if you have them take a test, there's still a chance that the result was wrong.
It's also worth noting that most people act differently in a relationship, which further distances them from the standard description.

*Generalizations*
"INTJs are soulless robots", "ESFPs are shallow morons", etc.
No type is anything like what you read about them online. Just because that ISTP cheated on you or that ISFJ turned out to be emotionally manipulative doesn't mean that they all are.

*Ideal pairings*
"ENFPs are the best partners for INTJs", etc.
There is no consensus whatsoever on which type makes the best partner for someone of a given type. There are some statistics on which pairings are the most likely (which usually correlate with the popularity of a given theory), but these shouldn't be applied on an individual basis.

If there's a certain type (or types) that work well for you, this will depend entirely on you. The only way to determine this is to talk to and date people of different types so you can understand how well you get along with them. e.g. Some intuitives have a low tolerance for sensors, while others get along fine.

MBTI can be applied to dating - it's a qualitative description of personality, and personality affects compatibility. Similarly, a hardcore atheist and a hardcore theist won't be very compatibility - their world-views and values are too different. MBTI can influence these things, which is why it's useful. But it shouldn't be used to rule out or select someone purely because of their type - it merely serves as a flag to indicate things you might want to take a look at.


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