# Has porn affected your sexuality?



## stormgirl (May 21, 2013)

The common belief around porn seems to be that it negatively affects sexuality, for both men and women by giving an unrealistic expectation of what their partner’s body should look like, and how they should perform in bed.

There are however studies showing that viewing of pornography makes little if any difference to ones sexuality, or that it can even be a positive tool that can better ones sex life.

Would you say that viewing of pornography has impacted your sexuality? If so, has it been positive or negative?


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

stormgirl said:


> There are however studies showing that viewing of pornography makes little if any difference to ones sexuality, or that it can even be a positive tool that can better ones sex life.


There are also studies (arguably even more) that come to the exact opposite conclusion.


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## CaptSwan (Mar 31, 2013)

In my case; I learned a whole lot about sex, especially about those niche topics (rimming, gagging, etc.) I used it and learned all those strange things you don't learn in textbooks. Although, one has to be smart and realize it's all pretend; but still... you see some strange things walking down good ol' Porn Street.


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## DiamondDays (Sep 4, 2012)

Honestly i can't get it up to porn. It is so dull. Porn has affected me mostly by boring the living hell out of me. *yawn*


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## stormgirl (May 21, 2013)

Shahada said:


> There are also studies (arguably even more) that come to the exact opposite conclusion.


That is true, but studies can easily be skewed. For this subject in particular, there are many conflicting studies. So I am curious what actual people have to say about what their experience with porn has been. I would suspect as with most things, that the truth lies somewhere in the middle!


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

I would have posted a picture of popcorn, but pizza is so much better when watching something for entertainment.










Plus, I'm posting food porn, so it's somewhat related.


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

Torai said:


> Plus, I'm posting food porn, so it's somewhat related.


That's a pretty generic pizza/picture of a pizza to be called "food porn," IMO.


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## The Proof (Aug 5, 2009)

nah, what's affected my sexuality is that I hate feeling like an animal, it's disgusting


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

Shahada said:


> That's a pretty generic pizza/picture of a pizza to be called "food porn," IMO.


Weird, I thought it was cheesier than regular pizza. Pepperoni happens to be one of my favorites along with Stoner's Pie (there were no good pictures of it, though). Maybe I've been eating unsatisfying pizza.

Wait, does it need to be in a bikini to be food porn? I could GIMP that in.

*For those who are wondering, Stoner's Pie is this great concoction of pizza that contains mozzarella sticks, pepperoni, french fries, bacon, and extra cheese. It's one of the most horrible things for your body, but it's amazing.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

l'd say learning from porn is the issue. More so for men who need to learn to perform, but l guess young girls are also affected bod image wise, among other things.

l think that certain ''trends'' that have become seemingly standard are directly inspired by porn and l'm glad l didn't have to deal with that as a younger person.

My age group wasn't really as directly affected by it as Gen z IMO, l didn't really watch much porn until my mid 20's but l've never seemed to have_ issues_ with it :wink:


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

I have no problem with porn, I enjoy it sometimes myself and my wife gets to enjoy the the after effects. I can't say it's harmed me at all, or my sexuality. If anything, it has helped me to acknowledge that I am a very sexual person and that it is a possitive form of foreplay, when used in moderation. We only watch the lesbian porns, made by, and for lesbians, not the girls pretending to be lesbians...

I would prefer my son, when he is of age, does not watch a lot of it(hetero porn, he's straight), because it shows women faking it, and it is a male based fantasy. In other words, it would show him exactly what men seem to think women want, but what they actually don't want. I know of no women who want a man in their rear and another in their hoo-ha at the same time, pounding as hard as they can....It's unsanitary and unsafe for a male to go from your anus to your vagina(like they show), unless you want an infection, and they show oral sex being given to a woman like the man is having a tongue/clit beating match(just ow!)So, on those premises, I would not want my son to watch it much because it would give him an unrealistic idea of what a good lover is/ what women want. For general jack off material, I have no problems with it. Again, as long as he realizes it's a fantasy only.


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## lifeisanillusion (Feb 21, 2011)

Porn has had more negative consequences on my sexuality than positive ones. I developed some unrealistic expectations about sex. I also feel shame sometimes after looking at porn. It can be an escape. I also think it promotes immediate gratification, and so now I tend to get off as quickly as possible. 

I have not come across too many studies that show where porn is beneficial. I think it is one of those things that yes it can have some good consequences, but there it does far more damage than it does good. Porn tends to promote men as being powerful, objectifies women, and can teach men to undervalue or hate women (hetero porn). Parents need to be the people educating their children about sex rather than porn. Unfortunately many parents or adults don't step up to the plate. Mostly I see porn as a drain on society versus being a benefit to society. I don't think that banning porn is the answer, but I think it does show that society has a lot of issues when it comes to sex. We need to somehow start addressing these issues instead of sweeping them under the carpet.


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## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

no. i still doesn't measure up to the real thing. i mean, at a certain point it has to hit home that it's just pixels... that at a certain point, it's just body parts (and god awful, terrible acting). 

if you're going to compare your partner's body to the body of someone in a flick, that isn't porn's fault, but your own... and you're most likely not getting what you could get from sex because you are unable to do otherwise.

edit: in other words--porn isn't making you this way, more like it's taking advantage of a "lack of growth in one way", or of another issue. it's not magic.


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## Crimson Ash (May 16, 2012)

I think it greatly depends on the person as well as the content they are consuming. In the sense that there is a lot of unrealistic porn out there and if the person does consider that as the reality then they are making quite a big mistake.

Most porn does provide very unrealistic expectations of both men and women. This relates to time, what works and what doesn't work, how it should be done how it shouldn't, the physical interaction overall etc.

They also provide a clean and structured environment that is almost never what actually happens in reality.

In terms of whether it has effected me I guess in my early teenage years I did consume a bit too much and there where instances where I maybe should have taken a subjective look at what I was trying to achieve in reality, it was quite a quick learning process for me and I quickly stopped consuming large amounts of it. 

The thing that has to be remembered is people in general are influenced by what they see and hear. In this case mostly porn that is fully focused on the instant gratification and dominance ideologies. 

But there is also porn out there that has a certain sense of realism and doesn't consist of fake moans and cumshots. As well as good erotic literature. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that yes it can be beneficial but the overwhelming amount of superficial and fake porn that really has no place in reality poses a huge problem to this effect.


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## WolfStar (Aug 18, 2009)

Nope. Gave me things to explore, but it's just like video games - who honestly believes that it's real life?


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

stormgirl said:


> There are however studies showing that viewing of pornography makes little if any difference to ones sexuality, or that it can even be a positive tool that can better ones sex life.


I'm very interested in seeing a study that shows how it can better ones sex life. Links?


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

I'm indifferent to it. It's not good enough when I know I can easily get the real thing with an interactive partner any time even when I was single. Was always pointless for me.


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## remMUS (Dec 28, 2012)

Not hugely. It has helped me maintain my virginity.


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## PallasAthena (Aug 3, 2013)

I would definitely say it's been positive for me. However, I think it really depends on the person, their age/maturity, and what type of porn they're watching. There's a huge difference between watching a video of someone masturbating or of a couple's home sex video compared with professional porn stars with fake tits being choked and impaled with dicks in every hole.
So I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with using visual stimulation and I think it can be healthy, but I think the porn industry is very messed up.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

Shahada said:


> That's a pretty generic pizza/picture of a pizza to be called "food porn," IMO.


I don't know, man. I think I know what it is. Is it a Dominoe's @Torai?


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## Proteus (Mar 5, 2010)

Torai said:


> I would have posted a picture of popcorn, but pizza is so much better when watching something for entertainment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

marked174 said:


> I don't know, man. I think I know what it is. Is it a Dominoe's, Torai?


I don't know, either. It was the first option I saw when I searched "cheesy pepperoni pizza". I like cheese. I like it a lot.


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## Kanerou (Oct 8, 2009)

I don't watch porn. I have read smutty manga, a fair amount of which is probably porny. I've attempted hentai but was too turned off to continue (watching chicks with gigantic breasts get violated really isn't my thing, and that seems to be much of the genre). With smut, it's still aesthetically pleasing and usually consensual. Also, if they aren't just one-shots (which really just gets old and stale after a while), there's a good chance of finding a truly enjoyable experience along the way as opposed to random hook-ups that really don't have much meaning. This is also my gripe with the majority of American movies, but I digress. Whether it's affected my sexuality, I don't know. I'm not certain that what I've read is comparable with on-screen porn, and much of what I've read has been yuri, so yeah.


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## Brian1 (May 7, 2011)

Please read OP's title, and her questions, then read my post, because I'm writing a contrast differentiation, between those two? 

I'm sorry, I'm going to be a jerk here and say I've had lots of sexual liaisons with women when I was viewing porn a lot. And I've had zero sexual experiences with men when I was viewing porn a lot. I'm not viewing porn as much anymore, and I still bring home the female sexual experiences. This summer has been the summer of love, as I got two flirtatious arm massages from two different women, on different parts on the same arm. So, No, I it has not affected my sexuality, to reaffirm your premise. Has it affected my sex life, which I take to be something different than sexuality,possibly. No conclusive evidence yet, but I did go through a time,as I'm sure most people do, where you look at the opposite sex as just a piece of meat. I am told however,by a close friend, that this had a negative impact.

I think you're asking two different things. If I look at someone how they should perform in bed, that to me is not sexuality. That is world view. Sexuality is I think what you declare yourself. I declare myself open and free, but straight. 



stormgirl said:


> The common belief around porn seems to be that it negatively affects sexuality, for both men and women by giving an unrealistic expectation of what their partner’s body should look like, and how they should perform in bed.
> 
> There are however studies showing that viewing of pornography makes little if any difference to ones sexuality, or that it can even be a positive tool that can better ones sex life.
> 
> Would you say that viewing of pornography has impacted your sexuality? If so, has it been positive or negative?


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

stormgirl said:


> The common belief around porn seems to be that it negatively affects sexuality, for both men and women by giving an unrealistic expectation of what their partner’s body should look like, and how they should perform in bed.
> 
> There are however studies showing that viewing of pornography makes little if any difference to ones sexuality, or that it can even be a positive tool that can better ones sex life.


I think that it can become negative when a person adopts someone's "style" of performance, their attitudes toward sex or uses pron as a substitution for the real thing. If a person stay away from that I don't see how its more harmful than other kinds of media.



> Would you say that viewing of pornography has impacted your sexuality? If so, has it been positive or negative?


I think porn did two good things for me. Firstly, it showed me that I wasn't the only person who had certain sexual inclinations and that it wasn't only okay but that it was more accepted if not widely praised. However, everyone seems to be jumping on the bandwagon these days. If I'm watching porn it's going to be something niche, like bondage. The reason for this being that it's not something I indulge in regularly in my own life, so I like to explore it when possible.

The other thing I think porn did which was positive was that it showed me that there was a never-ending variety in what could be deemed as sexually attractive and desirable, which was a big thing for me. Since I was little I found that the women I found attractive was seldom met with a good reception from my friends, and as an adult it's still is true. I think without knowing about that degree in variety and that I wasn't alone in finding certain things attractive, it would've taken me longer to get over that nagging feeling like there was something wrong with what attracted me.


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## stormgirl (May 21, 2013)

Promethea said:


> I'm very interested in seeing a study that shows how it can better ones sex life. Links?


In regards to porn potentially being positive, there was a study done in 2008 entitled “Self-Perceived Effects of Pornographic Consumption” that showed results of both men and women benefiting from watching porn. Another recent example of a potentially positive impact of porn has been the fifty shades phenomenon. Many women in particular have reported that it has brought back a spark to their sex lives, and increased their confidence in regard to their own sexuality.

Ultimately I see porn as a tool that has the potential to be negative or positive depending on both the type you’re watching and what you’re hoping to get from it!


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## FlightsOfFancy (Dec 30, 2012)

It, for about 6 months, made me more physically inpatient when it came to the real thing.

There's an immediacy in porn that comes from being able to get to whatever point in sex. Real people can't sync that well--and they shouldn't, as that shortens the range of what pleasures one can experience when couples.


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## Uncouth Angel (Nov 26, 2011)

Sort of. I was always intrigued and fascinated by sex as an adolescent, but I never saw hardcore porn until I was 15 or so. As a teenager and a college student, I gradually horded porn; sexy pictures I printed out from the Internet, DVDs and VHS tapes I'd accumulated here and there, until I eventually had a small box (1' x 1') with 70+ porn DVDs I'd accumulated in the last 10 years or so. I love porn, but I have occasionally wondered if I've ever straddled the line toward bein sexually dysfunctional. 

I've always had a voracious sexual appetite, and since I was lonely and very horny for long stretches of my life, porn ws often my comfort food. masturbation was my only means of finding sexual release, and porn, of course, exists for the sole purpose of facilitating masturbation. I didn't actually lose my virginity until I was 23, and the sex was at first awkward and strange. Everything I thought I'd learned about sex was wrong. It's a common myth that a sexually inexperience man will come quickly. If he's conditioned himself to come while masturbating most of his life, then he'll find it difficult to achieve orgasm through normal sex, despite the imminence of sexual desire and stimulation. 

I may have what's referred to as delayed ejaculation, which very little research has gone toward. I don't know if my porn habits contributed to this or not. There was a five year period of singledom, where I didn't have sex very often, and almost every sexual experience I had was enjoyable, but awkward. I only got laid 5 times, and I didn't come at all during three of those encounters. During one fling, it took me close to two hours. I was slightly bruised afterwards. 

Currently, I'm usually able to see my girlfriend for a few days every week. Sometimes it's every other week. There are times when I don't come at all with her. Sometimes, I have to concentrate and work hard for it. I'm often harder during foreplay than when I'm actually inside her. I notice that if I relive myself using porn even two days prior to visiting her, the sex is far less satisfactory. If I can last a week or so without, I come quicker. Of course, I don't use porn when I'm with her, so I'd like to think this issue will go away once we actually move in together.


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

Shahada said:


> There are also studies (arguably even more) that come to the exact opposite conclusion.


Yeah, when I saw the title, I thought this thread was headed in the opposite direction


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## Devrim (Jan 26, 2013)

Pron won't affect your sexuality,
Unless you use it to try and play out fantasies in real life.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

stormgirl said:


> In regards to porn potentially being positive, there was a study done in 2008 entitled “Self-Perceived Effects of Pornographic Consumption” that showed results of both men and women benefiting from watching porn. Another recent example of a potentially positive impact of porn has been the fifty shades phenomenon. Many women in particular have reported that it has brought back a spark to their sex lives, and increased their confidence in regard to their own sexuality.
> 
> Ultimately I see porn as a tool that has the potential to be negative or positive depending on both the type you’re watching and what you’re hoping to get from it!


Actually I have read the exact opposite; that women who have to endure their partners watching porn have a lowered self-image. I'll actually post a few studies or articles representing studies that show various negative impacts.

Viewing sexually-explicit materials alone or ... [Arch Sex Behav. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI

"The only difference between those who never viewed SEM and those who viewed it only with their partners was that those who never viewed it had lower rates of infidelity." (sem = sexually explicit material)

Here is an article representing a study that shows how men rate their partners looks and even intelligence lower after using porn:

Can Your Brain Become Hardwired to Porn?

Then theres the various studies showing how men can in fact become addicted to it, but you already acknowledged that these sorts of studies exist. I read the one you linked but I had trouble understanding how they were measuring "positivity." 

Well, so, you were asking for anecdotes, and I have one. It completely ruined the sex in one of my relationships. I loved him more than I'd ever loved anyone, and I lost him to porn. He was a virgin, had zero experience with women, socially awkward, and had not developed a healthy sexual attitude toward women - he'd just hole up and fantasize about these airbrushed fake women in photos. At some point he'd pointed out which type of body he preferred, and big surprise, he picked an altered photo over the real photos. Since, I have read about how it can shape a man's attitude about whats attractive. Why Does Porn Seem Hotter Than My Partner?

I knew that he'd used it frequently and had a folder full of bondage porn _before_ our relationship, but for a while he quit when we were together. It quit *until* the novelty of losing his virginity wore off. Most of my partners have told me I'm the best fuck they've ever had, and I'm not unattractive (I'm frequently told I'm hot and men stare at me constantly) - so that wasn't the issue. (And I have since read piles of stories online from women who are young and "attractive" talking about how their partners have given up sex for porn). 

He and I used to have sex a few times a week, and though he was inexperienced and I like to have it more often, I was happy. I could have done that for the rest of our life together and been fine. 

About a year and 3/4 in, I noticed that over a month had gone by, and he had not been interested when I initiated sex, and he had not initiated sex, not once. He used the 'low sex-drive' excuse (since, I have read thats a common excuse a porn user will use when their partner wants to know why the sex has stopped). 

I talked to my friends about it, and one of them said that he'd heard about men becoming hooked on porn and giving up sex for it. My reaction was, but he hasn't used it since we started dating. What a naive fucking chump I was. It took me weeks to get the truth out of him, and finally he broke down and admitted he'd been sneaking around and using it, and lying to me about it.

Theres where the sex-drive went!

I wouldn't touch him for a long time, then he made me some empty offer, telling me that if I'm on my best behaviour and act as he wants, then he won't use it. I counted four weeks of me being his maid/dog basically, and you know what - he still used it. In all that time he had sex with me maybe twice, and he'd admitted to using porn more frequently than he'd had sex with me. 

I found a form where many young men went to get over their porn issues. I tried to see if hes open to "rebooting" as they call it, where they abstain for a while then resume normal healthy sex with their partners. Basically a lot of them can't even get it up for normal sex anymore because they're just craving porn instead. I read through countless accounts of this in various places online and that forum. Your Brain Rebalanced - Index

He was in stone cold denial that it was a problem even though he didn't even have the willpower to stop for a month. I even asked him if we can have an open relationship at the time and he said whatever, just don't ask me about my porn use anymore. What kind of boyfriend says fuck whomever you want, just lemme have my porn. 

Months pass, no sex, then he makes me another offer. He tells me to walk around either naked or dressed like the do in porn ALL THE TIME, _and_ I have to let him tie me up and beat me, yanno, like in porn. He said then he might feel like having sex with me sometimes (but the porn use will continue of course.) So I'm degrading myself just for his consideration. Ha, fuck that.

At some point he'd also mentioned watching it together. And I said how would -I- benefit from watching you simulate sex with other naked women? Theres just no intense connection when he needs some other person to get his dick hard for him. Its like gross, what am *I* even doing here then, fuck off lol. Its degrading, and people only accept it these days because they think they have no other option. Theres a popular myth that men need porn, and that all men use porn.

I reclaimed my dignity instead. And I'll say, as many other women I have talked to have said - sex with a guy whos not hooked on porn is soooo much better. It turns out not all men need porn or use porn. The connection is intense, hes more into it, and you feel like its all about you and him, not you and what it -actually- takes to turn him on as some gross sexual surrogate, robbing you of your dignity.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

@Promethea, that is a horrible story. I felt like giving you a hug after reading it (if you wanted a hug).

Some people are addicted to porn, like gambling, hording, or substance. And I'm not going to justify porn, nor defend it.

I think it is a very powerful thing for you to share how you reclaimed your dignity, and how you figured it out.

Thank you. You are a great lady, and you deserve a great guy.

d


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## Snow (Oct 19, 2010)

I believe porn to be one of the most negative impacts on modern society. I can't help but consider the long term potential cause and effect relations it may have on both sexes.

In my own opinion, it's something which _does_ create some level of expectations as to how people "should appear," and does so on a _subconscious_ level. (Much more dangerous than when it is conscious.) There is no shortage of studies which show animals (humans in this case) build up all sorts of likes and dislikes toward what they are exposed to over time, not to mention if they are given additional stimuli (an orgasm). (And what greater stimuli is there than an orgasm?)

So one watches people of a particular body, wearing particular clothing (or lack of), and performing particular functions. One stimulates one's self to this frequently, and becomes more turned on by these items, and less turned on by others.

Also, as a few have mentioned, you can "learn" from porn. While may be _technically _true, I don't think the ends justify the means. I have watched comparatively very little porn in my life (and felt quite disgusted with myself when and after I did), but what you "learn" is a) often things that don't interest me in the first place, b) often degrading toward the woman (usually) or man, and c) unnecessary; the power of applying my imagination (physical intuition?) with my partner is more than enough to fuel both of us to orgasm.


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## Antipode (Jul 8, 2012)

I more worry about the countless stories I hear of people being affected by porn because they viewed it at a very young age.


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## Luke (Oct 17, 2010)

I rarely watch porn anymore and I feel bad when I do. I found that very quickly I started to become desensitized to it. I also found that I would feel guilty after watching it. I'm generally pretty liberal when it comes to sex and don't have many hang ups, but I felt like I was betraying my morals by watching some of the porn that I was watching. The porn I was watching wasn't particularly unusual by Internet porn standards, but I think Internet porn is pretty hardcore in general. 

I feel much better now that I've stopped watching it. No more feelings of guilt. I also can see more clearly that many of the images found in Internet porn can be quite disturbing and I'm glad not to be viewing them anymore.

As for learning from porn, I think because it's a completely unrealistic depiction of sex, people would learn more bad habits than good ones. I think if people are going to watch porn, then they should have a clear understanding that what they are watching is a movie, with actors. It's not real. Comparing porn to what sex is like in real life would be like comparing an action movie staring a hero who fights crime, to being an actual police officer. It would be worrying if people thought that watching that action movie would prepare them for the real life situations that they would face as a police officer. It would also be worrying if people thought that watching porn will teach them about sex.


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

Just give it a minute ...

The other day my cousin came up to me and said that in her school, they no longer allowed the game dodge ball to be played unless it was with a super soft cushion ball. Because the game was too rough. She was laughing because it was so outlandish and she thought it unreasonable. She said, "One kid cries and ruins it for everyone! That game is supposed to be rough. CAN you believe that?!"

I said awkwardly ... "YYYyyyyyeeeah. About that". *clears throat*. "I was one of those kids". 

She just busted out laughing because she knows I wasn't kidding. Of course I had to defend myself and animate the awful experience of the game dodge-ball being mandatory and how I was a prime target because I just stood there petrified. 

So back to porn ...

OP, They say that because of people like me. And I ruin it for everyone 

I know that porn is not bad. It is what it is. I'm not one of those people who would think a guy were cheating watching it. (unless he were glued to it 24/7). But it DID totally ruin me in a way because no one wants to watch fat and/or gross people have sex. and then my brain says, well if you don't look like that, then you're not desirable. Something like that. 

And I am completely aware of how illogical and absurd it is. But I think it's because I'm just more of a sensitive person. And the actual act is like this intense situation like the game of dodgeball. And the porn factor FACT is there, like a dodge ball, pummeling my common sense. There are thousands and thousands of other moms out there who haven't skipped a beat in their sex lives after becoming moms regardless. And I know there are thousands and thousands of old people, gross or not, having sex. So I know I'm that stupid kid from the game of dodgeball who ruins it for everyone else. Sorry 

And so there. I will probably be the *only *woman with the guts to admit it. But yes. 

The porn industry has an incredibly negative effect on me.

Men are mean in there too, and the looks on the women's faces are sad. Their eyes always bother me when they look to the camera. Every time I've tried to give it a chance, it won't work. It makes me feel terrible about myself or flat out sorry for the females in the film. I have female friends who will watch it. And I just don't understand how it doesn't bother them, but it doesn't. 

*please don't try to counsel me. I'm just sharing the view in contrast to the OP*


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## Crimson Ash (May 16, 2012)

Ningsta Kitty said:


> Men are mean in there too, and the looks on the women's faces are sad. Their eyes always bother me when they look to the camera. Every time I've tried to give it a chance, it won't work. It makes me feel terrible about myself or flat out sorry for the females in the film. I have female friends who will watch it. And I just don't understand how it doesn't bother them, but it doesn't.
> 
> *please don't try to counsel me. I'm just sharing the view in contrast to the OP*


I was wondering if someone else would express the same thing I have felt about mainstream porn. When I was younger there was a certain amount of guilt associated with watching porn just like what you had described. I would see the look on the females face and feel bad because I could tell shes not really enjoying it and notice the forcefulness of the males and just think why is he doing that she doesn't actually like it you can tell from her face and body language.

But there is some porn out there that I would call realistic if you look hard enough. Just putting it out there not trying to counsel you or anything.


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

UtterMess said:


> But there is some porn out there that I would call realistic if you look hard enough. Just putting it out there not trying to counsel you or anything.


Haha! aww, thank you. You're so very sweet >.<

The funny thing is, both neutral guy friends and female friends have tried to help me and it always back fires. The best was when my friend traumatized me by narrating the escapades about his gf(pretty much wife) and him. It was awful! can't get into detail but it was one of those things where I said, "How is this making me feel better?!"

Then there was the time I had a man I was involved with tell me, 
"SEX. Is like cold pizza. It's still good when it's bad". Yeah THAT really made me feel like getting naked 

THEN there was a friend who told me that on occasion he liked to watch "mature" porn. Which of course made me want to vomit. I swear I will NEVER have sex again if I'm in the same category with those gross grandma porno's :x

And then there is the FACT that, just how you said it ... realistic porn is really hard to get a hold of. It's like, Great. Just Great. So the average women is in THAT much of demand ... nice. I think it's too, the idea that, if a man is looking to the girl in the porn or strip club with "that look" but doesn't look like that when he looks to the person he has sex with, why is he having sex with them if they're not desired. It doesn't make sense to me. Men's sexuality does NOT make ANY sense to me! 

I don't care anymore. I doubt I'll ever understand. So I just don't think about it ...

Besides ... I like to read. So that takes care of that. That works for me


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

Ningsta Kitty said:


> *please don't try to counsel me. I'm just sharing the view in contrast to the OP*


I won't try to counsel you, but , if anyone looks at this:










and think that's a normal look for a person, or attractive in any way, then you were fucked up long before you got to porn.


p.s. +5 for Finn sig.


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

android654 said:


> p.s. +5 for Finn sig.


:kitteh: Thank You!!! I've been a fan of them for years now.

My kid isn't even into them as much as I am, lol!!


p.s. 

that lady. was GROSS! :laughing:


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## Erbse (Oct 15, 2010)

Revenant said:


> (And what greater stimuli is there than an orgasm?)


Word on the street is: Your heroin fix :mellow:

Still, not recommending that route.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

Ningsta Kitty said:


> :kitteh: Thank You!!! I've been a fan of them for years now.
> 
> My kid isn't even into them as much as I am, lol!!


I don't even have kids and I'm into it. It's a real trippy cartoon.




> p.s.
> 
> that lady. was GROSS! :laughing:


Which is why no one should want to look like porn stars. They're all kind of gross looking, like a radio active duck dipped in aged goose leather.


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

android654 said:


> Which is why no one should want to look like porn stars. They're all kind of gross looking, like a radio active duck dipped in aged goose leather.


Hahaha!!! oh stop! You're just trying to make me feel better.
If they were that bad, men wouldn't watch them. :tongue:


note: while I'm still neurotic. you did make me feel better. >.<


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## Crimson Ash (May 16, 2012)

Ningsta Kitty said:


> Haha! aww, thank you. You're so very sweet >.<
> 
> The funny thing is, both neutral guy friends and female friends have tried to help me and it always back fires. The best was when my friend traumatized me by narrating the escapades about his gf(pretty much wife) and him. It was awful! can't get into detail but it was one of those things where I said, "How is this making me feel better?!"
> 
> ...


I like to read too =P (personally I find this to be the better alternative)

I guess it depends on the individual views people have of sex. For a majority of people I would like to believe that sex is merely a physical act and they take pleasure in the animalistic aspects of it. For some people its a little more complicated than that.

I wouldn't really blame mens sexuality. Mainstream pron companies make money off exploiting the sexual desires of men. To do so they have streamlined the process to deliver exactly what the average consumer desires. To add icing to the already fake cake they ensure that the sensory value is maximized, hence the very unrealistic female forms presented in many an average pornography.

Its not that the average women isn't in demand, its just simply that the industry has made a business out of distributing such a high number of unrealistic material that the majority have consumed and accepted it. A lot of these avid consumers learn the hard way that what they see is not the same as what they would experience.

That "look" you described is very disturbing and hardly ever accurate, but I have to go back to my previous point if its simply regarded with a physical aspect alone then a lot of people don't find a problem with it.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

Ningsta Kitty said:


> Hahaha!!! oh stop! You're just trying to make me feel better.
> If they were that bad, men wouldn't watch them. :tongue:


And this is why other guys rarely agree with me when we discuss what's attractive or unattractive in terms of women.




> note: while I'm still neurotic. you did make me feel better. >.<


It wasn't hard to do.

I mean, come on.


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

post deleted. we all know I'm neurotic enough as it is. 

no need to set it in stone -_-


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Ningsta Kitty said:


> Besides ... I like to read. So that takes care of that. That works for me


I'll jump in front of the bus.
I read. I read porn. 
I don't like pics, movies, blah blah blah. I read.

and I know the harlequin romance novels are out there, read by women. I'm an average middle age guy, a bit overweight.
How do I compete with the harlequin fantasy of perfection?


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

drmiller100 said:


> I'll jump in front of the bus.
> I read. I read porn.
> I don't like pics, movies, blah blah blah. I read.
> 
> ...


HAHAHahahhaa!!!!!:laughing: OMG!


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

drmiller100 said:


> @Promethea, that is a horrible story. I felt like giving you a hug after reading it (if you wanted a hug).
> 
> Some people are addicted to porn, like gambling, hording, or substance. And I'm not going to justify porn, nor defend it.
> 
> ...


I know that my story is pretty tragic, but I don't want sympathy tbh. I appreciate the sentiment though. You're sweet. 

I would like to point something out however. Regular porn affects a relationship in a much more complex way than an addiction to gambling/alcohol/hording. 

A guy doesn't even have to be a full on porn addict for his porn use to negatively affect a relationship.

During orgasm, you do form a bond with what caused it, through oxytocin and dopamine released in the brain. One of the studies I posted show that yes you can form a bond with porn. Your brain associates positive feelings -and- orgasm with the porn.

For a guy whos using it as a replacement for sex, even if its not doing it daily, he can make an association that causes him to prefer the porn over sex.

The person I spoke of wasn't even using it every day, but he had learned to prefer it because of the association between it, and pleasure/orgasm. 

A alcohol/gambling/hoarding habit can have negative effects on a relationship, sure, but its not going to damage the sexual fidelity like the porn/masturbation: which is *simulating sex with other people*, particularly when they come to prefer it. Many women report literally feeling like they were cheated on, and why not? As I very fairly put it, when hes hiding out jerking off to porn, he is avoiding sex with you to simulate it with other women. And his brain doesn't fully understand the difference as the studies show with the oxytocin and dopamine bonding that takes place.

And I am not underestimating the negative impacts that other addictions have on relationships. Yes, people become distant, they lie, they choose drinking over you -- but they aren't actually making you feel sexually obsolete and invalidating you as a woman. 

It also most certainly effects how they perceive attractiveness. I was watching another documentary where every high school kid in the experiment picked the only fake pair of breasts out of the lineup of 20, 19 natural, they picked the only fake pair as best.

Chances are none of those high school kids were yet porn addicts, but they can sure spot the fakest most porn worthy body, and they have been conditioned to think its hotter.

That alone can have a negative impact on relationships, because it leaves both people dissatisfied as they have learned to think less of even a healthy fit partner - because that healthy fit partner probably doesn't have little cosmetic surgeries here and there, and a photoshopped package to show 24-7. And some will say hey, thats no big deal anyway - but I have found the ones to say that typically have this degrading philosophy that men look at porn "because their reach extends their grasp" - in other words, they are devaluing their partners beauty to seek out imaginary sexual surrogates because shes never going to fully satisfy them. 

I decided no more partners who have been conditioned to think this way. There just isn't a strong connection between us if its like that. He feels like some piece of public property that I'm renting sometimes when hes in the mood, instead of like someone I have a deep, soulful connection with. And I have learned that I don't have to settle for the cheap shit. I didn't know that at some point, but no matter how many guys call me a bitch for not accepting those disgusting habits, I can and -do- always find some who don't think that way. : )


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Revenant said:


> I believe porn to be one of the most negative impacts on modern society. I can't help but consider the long term potential cause and effect relations it may have on both sexes.
> 
> In my own opinion, it's something which _does_ create some level of expectations as to how people "should appear," and does so on a _subconscious_ level. (Much more dangerous than when it is conscious.) There is no shortage of studies which show animals (humans in this case) build up all sorts of likes and dislikes toward what they are exposed to over time, not to mention if they are given additional stimuli (an orgasm). (And what greater stimuli is there than an orgasm?)
> 
> ...


"And what greater stimuli is there than an orgasm?" -- I agree, because even just street drugs, while they have an effect on dopamine, they don't affect _both_ dopamine _and oxytocin_ like an orgasm does.

Also, there are some people who are able to use just a little cocaine sometimes at parties, and its not an addiction, just like there are people who use porn sometimes and its not an actual addiction -- but that cocaine isn't influencing what you find acceptable looking in the opposite sex. Porn teaches that to many, as boys learn about sexuality from internet porn and it shapes their perceptions. I mean they don't routinely see average healthy women naked around them, they learn "what the naked female body" looks like from the images they _actually_ see naked, in porn. 

Then the effect oftentimes when they see a real body is like "ew whats this" -- sort of like trying to get a grade-school child to eat a new food that doesn't conform to the classic shape (and many might not get this comparison but its something I learned about in a documentary that had a part on child psychology and eating habits -- they were apprehensive about foods that didn't conform to the classical standards of what they'd learned, however in families where they let their children help do the cooking, there was less of an issue with that).


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

There has to be a happy medium, doesn't there?

Women use toys to orgasm. I'm probably arrogant, but I'm not completely horrible in bed, and I KNOW my tongue nor my fingers can compete with a vibe in stimulating the clit. 

Yet most women prefer to have a real dude, with real equipment in bed over the toys. If there were not vibes, more women would be having sex with POS men. Lets be real, toys for sure take the edge off for women who ain't gettin' no real stuff.

Just like porn helps men take the edge off if they ain't gettin' no real stuff. 

I respect the hell out of you @Promethea, and you for sure have valid points. But I'm not buying the concept that any porn of any kind is bad for all relationships. 
I'm listening. I'm engaged. I'm completely willing to discuss this. 

But I'm not completely convinced yet.

d


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

drmiller100 said:


> There has to be a happy medium, doesn't there?
> 
> Women use toys to orgasm. I'm probably arrogant, but I'm not completely horrible in bed, and I KNOW my tongue nor my fingers can compete with a vibe in stimulating the clit.
> 
> ...


Comparing a woman using a dido to a man using porn makes no sense. Try comparing a man using a fleshlight to a woman using a dildo. Yeah, both of those things are tools but they aren't psychological like porn. 

Happy medium -- for some women, having their husbands *simulate sex with other women* is hurtful, that would be like asking "baybeee, can I just hurt you sometimes and think only some wimminz are hotter than you?" 

And whatever, if people decide thats what they want in a relationship and they can both live with it, its frankly none of my business, but I'll tell you what, I have had female friends confide in me that they would never tell their husband/boyfriend what they tell me: that they fucking hate dealing with it. Theres just this push in our culture to tolerate it, by certain types of men who want to half-ass a relationship while they settle for a woman who ends up about as appealing to them as a room mate or sister somewhere down the road. Many men would love to convince women that they are -all- superficial and only seek novelty, so that women will expect less from them.

People whine about "losing the spark" at some point, this is inevitable if the mindset in general is sexual novelty.

I suggest reading the kabbalah book of sex and trying out that philosophy next time you're in a relationship and in love. When you open yourself up to sex as something deeper than novelty, and place your desire in someone without spreading it around, the intensity can actually grow. *And I am not trying to turn anyone onto kabbalah -- the book's philosophy is amazing completely apart from jewish mysticism. I'm presenting an alternative way of viewing sex with one's partner, something that just feels like a stronger connection, and that alone makes the sex fucking amazing. I couldn't go back to being a novelty bang after experiencing something that was just.. better. And for many years I treated sex like it meant absolutely nothing.. it just got boring as hell. 

Also, for those who reject what I say about the topic, thats fine. I honestly don't care what you do to your mind or body. I'd rather share what I have learned with people who have already been open to it / curious about it, those who aren't happy in their current mindset or relationship. If you find something else that works, whatever, it works for you.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Ningsta Kitty said:


> And so there. I will probably be the *only *woman with the guts to admit it. But yes.


Admit? Are you presuming all other women feel the same way as you and just won't admit it? 

Why try to watch something that makes you feel bad about yourself? 

I like reading smut. It's just porn in different packaging. A lot of women/people do.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Promethea said:


> Comparing a woman using a dido to a man using porn makes no sense. Try comparing a man using a fleshlight to a woman using a dildo. Yeah, both of those things are tools but they aren't psychological like porn.
> 
> Happy medium -- for some women, having their husbands *simulate sex with other women* is hurtful, that would be like asking "baybeee, can I just hurt you sometimes and think only some wimminz are hotter than you?"
> 
> ...


No, I'm not seeing it. While I was recovering from surgery and childbirth, I was REALLY not up for sex. I much preferred my husband leave me alone and jack off to porn than bug me for sex. Or when one of us has been away, porn can be a good thing. Just like vibes. I haven't had a problem with my husband or ex's using porn when I was available. I guess I would be offended if I were available and my partner preferred porn. But otherwise, I see porn as a solution when I'm otherwise indisposed.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

monemi said:


> No, I'm not seeing it. While I was recovering from surgery and childbirth, I was REALLY not up for sex. I much preferred my husband leave me alone and jack off to porn than bug me for sex. Or when one of us has been away, porn can be a good thing. Just like vibes. I haven't had a problem with my husband or ex's using porn when I was available. *I guess I would be offended if I were available and my partner preferred porn.* But otherwise, I see porn as a solution when I'm otherwise indisposed.


I think you're very fortunate that they have never chosen porn every time you have been available for sex. I have read countless anecdotes of even young and "attractive" women reporting that their partners at some point in their relationships had become disinterested in sex, and would turn them down repeatedly, then later they would find out they'd been using porn regularly. A lot of them would use the "low sex-drive" excuse, to have their significant others find out about the porn habit later, and that they did in fact have a sex drive for that. 

I'm also not claiming that every man who uses porn will start to prefer it over his partner. The healthy guys I have dated dropped it once we started being intimate, and with my sex-drive I don't ask for more than a night off typically, when I just need to be very very alone. 

Anyway, if you're content with what goes on, thats good. I will say though, that I have dated people who preferred to think about the last time we had particularly good or exciting sex while they do the deed with their hand in the shower when I'm not available. ; )


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Promethea said:


> I think you're very fortunate that they have never chosen porn every time you have been available for sex. I have read countless anecdotes of even young and "attractive" women reporting that their partners at some point in their relationships had become disinterested in sex, and would turn them down repeatedly, then later they would find out they'd been using porn regularly. A lot of them would use the "low sex-drive" excuse, to have their significant others find out about the porn habit later, and that they did in fact have a sex drive for that.
> 
> I'm also not claiming that every man who uses porn will start to prefer it over his partner. The healthy guys I have dated dropped it once we started being intimate, and with my sex-drive I don't ask for more than a night off typically, when I just need to be very very alone.
> 
> Anyway, if you're content with what goes on, thats good. I will say though, that I have dated people who preferred to think about the last time we had particularly good or exciting sex while they do the deed with their hand in the shower when I'm not available. ; )


Tohmato, tomahto. Just as long as I'm left alone when I need to be left alone. :tongue:


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## All in Twilight (Oct 12, 2012)

Promethea said:


> "And what greater stimuli is there than an orgasm?" -- I agree, because even just street drugs, while they have an effect on dopamine, they don't affect _both_ dopamine _and oxytocin_ like an orgasm does.
> 
> Also, there are some people who are able to use just a little cocaine sometimes at parties, and its not an addiction, just like there are people who use porn sometimes and its not an actual addiction -- but that cocaine isn't influencing what you find acceptable looking in the opposite sex. Porn teaches that to many, as boys learn about sexuality from internet porn and it shapes their perceptions. I mean they don't routinely see average healthy women naked around them, they learn "what the naked female body" looks like from the images they _actually_ see naked, in porn.
> 
> Then the effect oftentimes when they see a real body is like "ew whats this" -- sort of like trying to get a grade-school child to eat a new food that doesn't conform to the classic shape (and many might not get this comparison but its something I learned about in a documentary that had a part on child psychology and eating habits -- they were apprehensive about foods that didn't conform to the classical standards of what they'd learned, however in families where they let their children help do the cooking, there was less of an issue with that).


I think this is really interesting....

I have been talking a lot about what you're saying here (I think) to the point I drove some people nuts with it here but are you saying that the image of porn stored as memory triggers something physiological and becomes a conditioning? A conditioning that distorts reality? And later this form of conditioning becomes a routine, a habit or something mechanical (repeat, repeat, repeat) as you will? And later that routine isn't satisfactory anymore so we seek stronger sexual thrills (or other sexual thrills, I don't know if you've gone into that)? Is that what you're saying? And if you are, what if that conditioning doesn't get met, the desire to actually re-create these sexual images we have seen on the net? Does this create the sexual frust, could this have a negative effect on an otherwise "perfect" relationship? Sex has become such an enormous affair after all....


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

monemi said:


> Tohmato, tomahto. Just as long as I'm left alone when I need to be left alone. :tongue:


No one understands the importance of alone time more than me, so I hear -that-. lol ^_^


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

All in Twilight said:


> I think this is really interesting....
> 
> I have been talking a lot about what you're saying here (I think) to the point I drove some people nuts with it here but are you saying that the image of porn stored as memory triggers something physiological and becomes a conditioning? A conditioning that distorts reality? And later this form of conditioning becomes a routine, a habit or something mechanical (repeat, repeat, repeat) as you will? And later that routine isn't satisfactory anymore so we seek stronger sexual thrill (or other sexual thrills, I don't know if you've gone into that)? Is that what you're saying? And if you are, what if that conditioning doesn't get met, the desire to actually re-create these sexual images we have seen on the net? Does this create the sexual frust, could this have a negative effect on an otherwise "perfect" relationship? Sex has become such an enormous affair after all....


Lemme process what you're saying here a bit later, to see how you're interpreting what I'm saying - but you probably get it. I just have no more attention span left to do anything but sit here with the breeze on my face after getting lost in Boston today. ; P

But I will come back to this. : )


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Hmm, I don't know. I don't really watch porn, but I do read smut. And to be honest I mostly read stuff I've been interested in in the first place, so it's not like my _tastes _has changed much. I don't know if there's a big difference between how written smut and live action porn affects your brain though. 

If I had a boyfriend, I would hope he'd at least be mindful about what kind of porn he was watching. The porn industry can be very abusive, and knowing someone was jacking it to actual women being abused (even if they're getting paid for it) would make me feel less fondly towards them.


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## Snow (Oct 19, 2010)

drmiller100 said:


> Delivering flowers at work to a lady you appreciate is powerful. I never deliver flowers when they are pissed at something about me - that trains them to be pissed at me. I deliver flowers just because I appreciate them. I do things for my special lady beyond "pulling my weight around the house." It has something to do with my strong Fe, and your Fi won't understand it.


All I see is: you can train women? Cool!!!


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Revenant said:


> All I see is: you can train women? Cool!!!


want to know another secret? the smart women train their guys also.


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## Snow (Oct 19, 2010)

drmiller100 said:


> want to know another secret? the smart women train their guys also.


And smart couples don't manipulate each other


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

drmiller100 said:


> want to know another secret? the smart women train their guys also.


I consider myself above average intelligence even if only slightly, but I don't think this is ethical. Ideally, I find someone who is -honest- with me about their values, and if we mesh, cool. I don't want to change someone, I just want them to be honest about who they are which gives me the free will to decide whether or not I want to stay, and I can know enough of them that I feel very close to them. 

The aunt of someone I was dating was telling me how you can train men the way you can train dogs, then she started instructing me how to control him. I never wanted to speak to her again after that. It disgusted me. If you become someone elses version of you, thats like a death of your identity. I loved and respected him too much at that point.


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## Kanerou (Oct 8, 2009)

Promethea said:


> Flowers - typically these threads don't evolve into conversation about flowers, but I'm certainly not complaining.
> 
> I'm gen y and I love receiving flowers, particularly if they're handpicked wildflowers. I picked some for myself a few nights ago, and my neighbor gives them to me sometimes. :3
> 
> I like having them near my desk.


I have mixed feelings about flowers. They're a socially-accepted/encouraged way of expressing affection, so they might be nice in that regard; it's a sort of "I should expect this and be happy to get it" thing. On a sheerly personal level... eh. You stick them in a vase, and they die.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

I found something that I saved from another forum because I find this guy very witty. He shared several quotations about porn then his sarcastic responses. A good use of sarcasm to make a point imo.




> When I ask men who are sex addicts if they would want their wife or daughter to be in porn, 100 percent say, 'No.’ They want it to be somebody else's wife or daughter. They know this material is damaging."
> 
> -Dr. Mary Anne Layden


that doctor's obviously an idiot.



> We see child molestation on demand through streaming to chat rooms. The children are getting younger and the images are getting more and more violent and graphic.
> 
> --Julie Myers, US Homeland Security Department.


she obviously isn't aware of how beneficial it is to a marriage for guys to fantasize about violent sex with young girls.



> “(Teen porn users are) totally separating emotions from sexual activity and I think that is going to cause problems later in life. That is going to cause problems in marriage. It is going to cause problems trying to have an intimate relationship as well.”
> 
> -- Dr. Todd Clements, psychologist


oh, come on, silly psychologist! sex with no emotion isn't bad for a marriage. it actually helps people communicate better when they have sex without intimacy. 



> Because negative effects of pornography were demonstrated so definitively in Zillmann and Bryant’s study, researchers have had a difficult time getting new studies past academic boards monitoring the use of human subjects. If a study’s effects are known to be detrimental – and there is no proof the damage can be permanently reversed – ethics boards will refuse to allow a similar study to go forward…thus subsequent researchers were unable to get new projects approved.
> 
> - Pamela Paul, in Pornified


jeez. where do these people come from. so a scientific, university board approved study documented that porn is harmful - so harmful, in fact, that they wouldn't allow them to conduct the study again for fear it would harm the participants. the board must not realize how much the exposure to porn could help the study participants' marriages. 



> “Pornography wrecks marriages.”
> 
> - divorce attorney Marcia Maddox


it does not! it saves them! what the hell would a divorce attorney know about what causes divorce, anyway...



> Real sexual relationships are not hard to find. There are plenty of adults of both sexes who are willing to have sex if someone treats them well, and asks. But there lies the problem. Some people do not want an equal, sharing relationship. They do not want to be nice. They do not want to ask. They like the power involved in buying a human being who can be made to do almost anything.
> 
> -Joe Parker of the Lola Greene Baldwin Foundation, in Not For Sale


are you kidding!! the guys always ask in porn. and they ALWAYS treat the girls well. that's why porn is so good for marriages.



> "You have to really prepare physically and mentally for it. I mean, I go through a process from the night before. I stop eating at 5p.m. I do, you know, like two enemas, and then the next morning I don't eat anything. It's so draining on your body."
> -Belladonna, star of Two in the Seat #3


hmmmm. sounds like an enjoyable experience. my wife - and all other wives - must really like it too. this'll be GREAT for my marriage!!



> People routinely assume that pornography is such a difficult and divisive issue because it's about sex. I think that's wrong. This culture struggles unsuccessfully with pornography because it is also about men's cruelty to women, and about the pleasure that men sometimes take in that cruelty. And that is much more difficult for everyone to face.
> -Robert Jensen, "A Cruel Edge"


men's cruelty to women... exactly! that's why it's healthy for marriages!

i think i'm seeing the light, girls! i'm...enlightened!

porn is...it's GOOD!

how could i have been so stupid...

and just for good measure:



> "Who needs the hassle of dating when I've got online porn?"
> 
> --Anonymous teenager quoted in New York Times Magazine, 5/30/04


you don't, silly teenager!! stick with the porn!

it'll be good for your marriage.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

drmiller100 said:


> I suspect you are having troubles keeping up. My original post was about asking lesbians to let me watch. You responded it happens all the time to you. Drunk stupid people doing drunk stupid shit at parties are called drunk and stupid. If that is the kind of people you hang with, then good for you.
> 
> Delivering flowers at work to a lady you appreciate is powerful. I never deliver flowers when they are pissed at something about me - that trains them to be pissed at me. I deliver flowers just because I appreciate them. I do things for my special lady beyond "pulling my weight around the house." It has something to do with my strong Fe, and your Fi won't understand it.
> 
> I like how you can count all the way to 2. Do you ever make it to the next number, which, btw is 3?


Got that all out your system, champ?


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Kanerou said:


> I have mixed feelings about flowers. They're a socially-accepted/encouraged way of expressing affection, so they might be nice in that regard; it's a sort of "I should expect this and be happy to get it" thing. On a sheerly personal level... eh. You stick them in a vase, and they die.


For me, I think its a semi-awkward, innocent, cute kind of gesture. Probably just my feelings about it from past experiences. If a guy spent a fuckton of money on a bunch of roses I wouldn't think its as cute as picking the prettiest flower and leaving it on my doorstep like the neighbor does. 

The flowers die eventually anyway. ): Part of my garden has run its course and is currently dying despite my attempts to prolong the life of my cucumber plants.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

Kanerou said:


> I have mixed feelings about flowers. They're a socially-accepted/encouraged way of expressing affection, so they might be nice in that regard; it's a sort of "I should expect this and be happy to get it" thing. On a sheerly personal level... eh. You stick them in a vase, and they die.


Chocolate is superior. Japan's got it right.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Promethea said:


> I consider myself above average intelligence even if only slightly, but I don't think this is ethical. Ideally, I find someone who is -honest- with me about their values, and if we mesh, cool. I don't want to change someone, I just want them to be honest about who they are which gives me the free will to decide whether or not I want to stay, and I can know enough of them that I feel very close to them.
> 
> The aunt of someone I was dating was telling me how you can train men the way you can train dogs, then she started instructing me how to control him. I never wanted to speak to her again after that. It disgusted me. If you become someone elses version of you, thats like a death of your identity. I loved and respected him too much at that point.


I'm not a saint. Every person I have ever been around has had something I wish they would do for me. 
I prefer a smile and a happy lady to a crabby bitchy one, and I'm willing to make an effort to change her world in order to make more happiness for her. I go out of my way to complement her. I go out of my way to listen. I go out of my way to open doors. I go out of my way to bring her flowers, if she likes it. I go out of my way to realize, and internalize the happiness in my life, and I want the person in my life to find the joy in her's.
fo
I've had women who were crabby and bitchy. And one solution is you buy them crap to buy your way out of the doghouse. I refuse. 
Do I want to change the lady in my life? Well, I want her to be happier with me around than with me not around, or what is the point? 

So, I guess I'm a selfish bastard. I'm good with that. 

And for what it is worth, you can buy a vase for 10 bucks, a dozen roses for 12 bucks. You can take the roses to her work, and help her trim them out, and listen a bit, and spend a bit of time middle of the day. For corporate America, or bigger offices, I deliver to the front desk. 

Go ahead. Laugh away. I enjoy it if it helps the lady find happy.


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## Kanerou (Oct 8, 2009)

Torai said:


> Chocolate is superior. Japan's got it right.


You know, I did think about chocolate as a substitute. Chocolate roses, even. XD I haven't been in a committed relationship, so I can't really say what I'd enjoy/prefer.


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## sereneone (Aug 1, 2013)

Promethea said:


> I know that my story is pretty tragic, but I don't want sympathy tbh. I appreciate the sentiment though. You're sweet.
> 
> I would like to point something out however. Regular porn affects a relationship in a much more complex way than an addiction to gambling/alcohol/hording.
> 
> ...


Your posts are very good for this discussion, first because you are keeping us on topic, and second because you are an example of a person for whom porn does a lot of psychological harm. But you are also generalizing and I don't think these generalizations will apply to all couples. I also feel you have some misconceptions about male sexuality.

For a man an orgasm is a commodity. It is literally almost nothing for a man to have an orgasm. He can give it to himself, or he can get it from a partner, or he can get it from someone else, and it will be very satisfying to him. It is the rare man who connects his orgasms to a single partner, at least at a mental level. And if a man does have some deep desire for you based on his orgasms, that is almost always going to be a short-lived thing. It's not something that you can base a permanent relationship on. It will ebb and flow over a long relationship.

What you are better off doing is finding a man who has deep psychological needs beyond just sex that connect deeply to what you have on offer. In my own case, what I value is a woman who is very high IQ (but the aesthetic of this needs to be pleasant and beautiful intellect, not abrasive...what Taylor Swift calls a "pretty little mind" in her song "Ours"), a high level of lyrical creativity (preferably musical), some level of visual creativity, and a lot of competence in making decisions. To find all of that in one person is extremely rare, but if you find it you are going to bond to that person very deeply and the ups and downs of sexual passion are just not going to shake that relationship easily. Ignore my specific needs and substitute whatever it is you offer the world. You want to find the man who *needs* those things.

In my mind man-sex and woman-sex are entirely different things, and most sexual issues derive from confusing the two. Men are primarily visual and get off very very easily and don't even care how they get off in many cases. Give a man any orgasm and he is usually happy. Women are much much more complex. Many women (not all) have very slow excitement cycles. A given woman might deeply enjoy (even need) 45 minutes of slow delicious foreplay, and might need 45 minutes after that of oral sex (or substitute her preferred sexual pleasure). This is mostly space-alien stuff in a typical man's mind, but having been with women who become sexually voracious and have almost unlimited appetite only after these very long warmups, I definitely have respect now for the fact that women have infinite sexual potential and men are nothing sexually compared to them.

Back to my point: if I am willing to invest two hours of my time giving a woman pleasure on her terms not mine, and maybe not even take my pants off when I am doing it, that is because she has qualities I deeply need. I would love giving her pleasure and wouldn't have time or desire to give another woman pleasure because she has qualities outside of sex I need (see above list). And I can honestly say that whether there is porn there or not, whether there is erotica there or not, whether there is romantic poety there or not, whether she thinks about another man during these acts or not, have absolutely NO BEARING AT ALL on either the depth of my affection toward her or my loyalty. So the idea that porn would destroy the ability of all men to connect to a given woman is simply wrong.

Some valid uses of porn for *some* couples would be:

1) As a communication vehicle. You look at something together and then you discuss, do you like that?

2) As a fantasy vehicle. Porn can basically become a substitute for outside affairs, or can enhance a sexual experience. And it's not the case that men only benefit from this. Many women think about extreme experiences or even simple ones like threesomes and would love to simulate that with one partner but would not like to do it in real life with multiple partners. Each couple finds their own right use. I totally get that you find it offensive and it has no place in a relationship with you. Please understand that you cannot generalize that to everyone.

Here's where things can go off the rails. Either partner might become addicted to porn to an extent that they derive most of their sexual pleasure from it not the relationship. It's like alcohol: an occasional glass of wine might be a very good thing but two bottles a day destroys your life.

And a point I tried to make in an earlier post which no seems to have connected with is that most porn is written by men and for men, so it is built around the very rapid male excitement model. Everything happens in 10 minutes. In female sexuality, 10 minutes of sex isn't worth the time it took to stop knitting.  Lesbian porn - written by Lesbians not men - is more connected to the slower female excitement model. I do think men who watch porn would learn a lot from watching that kind of Lesbian porn. What passes for "Lesbian porn" in the adult industry is mostly written by men and for men and is not the kind of porn I am referring to.

At this point in my life I don't have a lot of use for porn. But with the right partner I would use it in whatever way helped make the relationship with her better. And I do sympathize with you in that I think a lot of men have become much too addicted to porn and are having worse relationships - emotionally and sexually - because of it. But - again - it's like alcohol. We aren't all alcoholics because we drink alcohol. But there are a lot of alcoholics and it is a societal problem. There are a lot of porn addicts, and it is a societal problem.


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## sereneone (Aug 1, 2013)

sereneone said:


> What you are better off doing is finding a man who has deep psychological needs beyond just sex that connect deeply to what you have on offer. In my own case, what I value is a woman who is very high IQ (but the aesthetic of this needs to be pleasant and beautiful intellect, not abrasive...what Taylor Swift calls a "pretty little mind" in her song "Ours"), a high level of lyrical


I find it very humorous that the post I quote above was my 13th post to Personality Cafe, and Taylor Swift is (naturally  ) my celebrity crush. As all Taylor fans know, 13 is her "lucky number". Ooooh, it's a sign.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

sereneone said:


> Your posts are very good for this discussion, first because you are keeping us on topic, and second because you are an example of a person for whom porn does a lot of psychological harm. But you are also generalizing and I don't think these generalizations will apply to all couples. I also feel you have some misconceptions about male sexuality.
> 
> For a man an orgasm is a commodity. It is literally almost nothing for a man to have an orgasm. He can give it to himself, or he can get it from a partner, or he can get it from someone else, and it will be very satisfying to him. It is the rare man who connects his orgasms to a single partner, at least at a mental level. And if a man does have some deep desire for you based on his orgasms, that is almost always going to be a short-lived thing. It's not something that you can base a permanent relationship on. It will ebb and flow over a long relationship.
> 
> ...


Jesus Christ. What he said.

@sereone, I am going to paste this on my blog with credit given to you. I hope you do not mind. 

This is frigging powerful, and really offers an elegant answer for some of my questions. 
Thank you.


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## sereneone (Aug 1, 2013)

drmiller100 said:


> Jesus Christ. What he said.
> 
> @sereone, I am going to paste this on my blog with credit given to you. I hope you do not mind.
> 
> ...


Always glad to share experience.

And it would be @sereneone, not @sereone 

Come back and give us the pointer to the blog when it is done.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

sereneone said:


> Your posts are very good for this discussion, first because you are keeping us on topic, and second because you are an example of a person for whom porn does a lot of psychological harm. But you are also generalizing and I don't think these generalizations will apply to all couples. I also feel you have some misconceptions about male sexuality.


I told a story of a guy who started to prefer porn over sex, gave up sex, lied to me about the porn for a long time, etc etc -- yet -I- am the one who has been harmed by porn? In skimming your post I see that its all going to be not merely androcentric, but influenced by cultural values that sell people the idea that its a man's nature to lack sexual integrity, rather than his socialization and his personality. The fact that many men do not lack sexual integrity tells me that it is not nature; if it was, then it would be impossible for exceptions to exist. How could they override something thats hard-wired e.g. their very nature. 



sereneone said:


> For a man an orgasm is a commodity. It is literally almost nothing for a man to have an orgasm. He can give it to himself, or he can get it from a partner, or he can get it from someone else, and it will be very satisfying to him. It is the rare man who connects his orgasms to a single partner, at least at a mental level. And if a man does have some deep desire for you based on his orgasms, that is almost always going to be a short-lived thing. It's not something that you can base a permanent relationship on. It will ebb and flow over a long relationship.


I believed this when I was in college, and I ended up having to go to a relationship counselor explain to me that not nearly all men are as he put it "popup guys." I bought into the cultural mindset that a man can get it up in an instant and cum buckets with very little effort. I was wrong. The enfp I dated, and other men who I have dated were more complicated than that; as that relationship counselor put it, yes, sexuality and orgasm is emotional and complex for some men the way it is for some women. 



sereneone said:


> What you are better off doing is finding a man who has deep psychological needs beyond just sex that connect deeply to what you have on offer. In my own case, what I value is a woman who is very high IQ (but the aesthetic of this needs to be pleasant and beautiful intellect, not abrasive...what Taylor Swift calls a "pretty little mind" in her song "Ours"), a high level of lyrical creativity (preferably musical), some level of visual creativity, and a lot of competence in making decisions. To find all of that in one person is extremely rare, but if you find it you are going to bond to that person very deeply and the ups and downs of sexual passion are just not going to shake that relationship easily. Ignore my specific needs and substitute whatever it is you offer the world. You want to find the man who *needs* those things.


I have been dating for 17 years, and I have dated all kinds. I see what you're saying, but I think you're thinking that I'm younger and less experienced than I am. Some were into porn, some weren't, some were more open to other women, others were not.. etc., individuals often and not just this modern superficial concept of what a "man" is, romantically.



sereneone said:


> In my mind man-sex and woman-sex are entirely different things, and most sexual issues derive from confusing the two. Men are primarily visual and get off very very easily and don't even care how they get off in many cases. Give a man any orgasm and he is usually happy. Women are much much more complex. Many women (not all) have very slow excitement cycles. A given woman might deeply enjoy (even need) 45 minutes of slow delicious foreplay, and might need 45 minutes after that of oral sex (or substitute her preferred sexual pleasure). This is mostly space-alien stuff in a typical man's mind, but having been with women who become sexually voracious and have almost unlimited appetite only after these very long warmups, I definitely have respect now for the fact that women have infinite sexual potential and men are nothing sexually compared to them.


Yes, porn culture teaches everyone that sex is different for men than women -- back to my relationship counselor's perspective however, he would agree that its socialized into people. He even told me that these days there are female chauvinist pigs who act every bit as superficial and sexually promiscuous as they try to fit in with the boys club. You're going to say that I don't understand male sexuality, but I don't think many men even understand male sexuality. These days they grow up on internet porn, and thats where they learn about their sexuality; the expectations places on them, the expectations placed on women - and its all a mess. To contrast two guys I know, one grew up resenting porn because he saw it dividing his parents, the other is a porn addict: the one who resents porn didn't learn about his sexuality that way, and in sex, he prefers psychological and emotional intimacy - its not just busting a nut. The porn addict actually told me that hes incapable of ever feeling a connection during sex, that its purely to bust a nut. Yet, I am supposed to believe that real men are like nut-buster here, and that the other guy doesn't exist. No thanks. 



sereneone said:


> Back to my point: if I am willing to invest two hours of my time giving a woman pleasure on her terms not mine, and maybe not even take my pants off when I am doing it, that is because she has qualities I deeply need. I would love giving her pleasure and wouldn't have time or desire to give another woman pleasure because she has qualities outside of sex I need (see above list). And I can honestly say that whether there is porn there or not, whether there is erotica there or not, whether there is romantic poety there or not, whether she thinks about another man during these acts or not, have absolutely NO BEARING AT ALL on either the depth of my affection toward her or my loyalty. * So the idea that porn would destroy the ability of all men to connect to a given woman is simply wrong.*


Well I appreciate your personal opinion, but it in no way defeats the actual studies and piles of anecdotes that I have provided links for in some of my earlier posts. Read the stories of those gents on that forum I linked - they would say that they couldn't perform, had no desire for real sex at some point after their porn became a regular habit, then abstaining for a few months/returning to normal sex, they could function and enjoy it again. This is now a very common experience that I hear about online. To say its not possible is naive. 



sereneone said:


> Some valid uses of porn for *some* couples would be:
> 
> 1) As a communication vehicle. You look at something together and then you discuss, do you like that?


This makes the assumption that all sex is fetish-sex. Some people are just naturally attracted to each other and get turned on by each other. Porn makes it seem like all sex is fetish-sex. Like the guy I mentioned earlier, he doesn't even realize some people feel a connection during sex. And I'm not saying that people "shouldn't" engage in this together - I just think its of a cheaper quality than arousal inspired by each other. Bringing in an outside source makes it not as intimate because its not just the both of you anymore. 



sereneone said:


> 2) As a fantasy vehicle. Porn can basically become a substitute for outside affairs, or can enhance a sexual experience. And it's not the case that men only benefit from this. Many women think about extreme experiences or even simple ones like threesomes and would love to simulate that with one partner but would not like to do it in real life with multiple partners. Each couple finds their own right use. I totally get that you find it offensive and it has no place in a relationship with you. Please understand that you cannot generalize that to everyone.


I actually cited a study that showed how those who view porn in a relationship are more likely to cheat. I mean, your idealized version of how that goes down sounds nicer, but the study shows something else. *smh* I'm starting to think people don't read my links. Divorce attorneys are often quoted saying that porn is one of the biggest issues that leads to divorce as well. 



sereneone said:


> Here's where things can go off the rails. Either partner might become addicted to porn to an extent that they derive most of their sexual pleasure from it not the relationship. It's like alcohol: an occasional glass of wine might be a very good thing but two bottles a day destroys your life.


I would liken it more to the way rats begin to prefer cocaine over food in experiments.



sereneone said:


> And a point I tried to make in an earlier post which no seems to have connected with is that most porn is written by men and for men, so it is built around the very rapid male excitement model. Everything happens in 10 minutes. In female sexuality, 10 minutes of sex isn't worth the time it took to stop knitting.  Lesbian porn - written by Lesbians not men - is more connected to the slower female excitement model. I do think men who watch porn would learn a lot from watching that kind of Lesbian porn. What passes for "Lesbian porn" in the adult industry is mostly written by men and for men and is not the kind of porn I am referring to.


Well, theres also a platform of ideas about how men should be in the first place. I'd say it might not even appeal to a man's actual nature, but they have certainly been socialized to think certain ways about sexuality. I mean nowadays you have even extremes where men gets excited looking at a pair of high-heels. That certainly isn't dictated by nature, but just fetishes that develop as a result of certain things being sexualized and men being expected to act a way ("or be chastised by other men and called a 'sissy' or a '******' "). I have had various male friends open up to me and tell me they can't share certain things with other male friends because of this, which just perpetuates their expectations of each other.



sereneone said:


> At this point in my life I don't have a lot of use for porn. But with the right partner I would use it in whatever way helped make the relationship with her better. And I do sympathize with you in that I think a lot of men have become much too addicted to porn and are having worse relationships - emotionally and sexually - because of it. But - again - it's like alcohol. We aren't all alcoholics because we drink alcohol. But there are a lot of alcoholics and it is a societal problem. There are a lot of porn addicts, and it is a societal problem.


This is why I don't really compare a porn habit to an alcohol addiction: sure, a person can have a little alcohol here and there and it probably won't turn into a habit. Sure, a person can have a little porn here and there and it might not turn into a habit, but it can still result in other various issues.

- There are men who begin to prefer porn over sex who aren't even actual porn -addicts-. 

- Many women whos stories I have read have a very visceral reaction to their partner simulating sex with other women. I think that jealousy is natural when you want to preserve your relationship, so watching your partner lust after and simulate sex with someone who isn't you can be very unpleasant. 

- It can cause unrealistic standards for "attractiveness" - I probably already said this in one of my earlier posts.. british teens, experiment, blahblah, ALL of them picked the only fake pair of breasts as attractive, none of the various shapes and sizes of real ones were chosen. Kids are learning about sexuality from porn and when certain types of images are being sexualized (linked to sex) that is the result. And I'm sure those kids weren't porn addicts, at least not yet.

- It can change your partner's attitude about sex. This, I experienced first hand. It had nothing to do with a porn addiction, but just a porn -preference- when he expected me to get tied up and beaten. At first he just wanted to tie me up, but as the studies show, many men will need more and more hard core porn to excite them, even if they are not full blown addicts. So it went from light bondage, to painful whipping.. and where did he learn such a kink: internet porn. 

I could keep on but this is getting way too long.. anyway you get my point, even porn use that hasn't turned into an actual addiction can harm. Then theres the whole mess about how porn actors are raped then not believed ("because whos going to believe you were raped you dirty whore")/ stds/human trafficking.. etc etc etc

I will say though, that your post in no way offends me, and I am saying this because even if I'm not emotionally distressed, I come off as very coarse for some reason and I have been trying to work on that. So if my wording seems too pointed and theres an overuse of curse words, thats just my charming personality. The way you presented your opinions/thoughts/feelings was non-offensive though I respectfully disagree with a lot of it. You seem like a gentle person so I wanted to make that very clear. : )


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

@*Promethea* you're only looking at the bad. I've seen the porn my husband watches. It's pretty vanilla stuff. I understand it's a problem for a lot of couples, but you have to recognize, that it's a good thing for some couples. I've been married 10 years and had 3 kids. Porn hasn't been an issue for us, I promise. I wouldn't be comfortable with my husband watching stuff that was degrading to the woman. 

Here:

Sex Education and Adult DVDs in Canada - Come As You Are Co-operative

this store has better quality porn and you can track down others online if you're of a mind to.


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## geekofalltrades (Feb 8, 2012)

Porn hasn't affected my sexuality, but then again, I have weird sexuality. I've seen studies saying that porn activates the same pleasure centers in the male brain as fondling a new iPhone does: essentially, it causes men to sexually objectify women. I've never appreciated sex much for the physical aspect, and I've always been made uncomfortable by the sort of porn where either party is blatantly objectified. I actively seek out porn where there's a visible emotional connection between - or at least I can convincingly project an emotional connection onto - the people involved. If you want an example and you don't feel icky being recommended porn by a stranger on the internet, maybe you can PM me and I'll send you a link.


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## carl5051088 (Aug 9, 2013)

monemi said:


> I'm indifferent to it. It's not good enough when I know I can easily get the real thing with an interactive partner any time even when I was single. Was always pointless for me.


That's just the thing, what about those introverted non-social types that can't get anything easily?


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

carl5051088 said:


> That's just the thing, what about those introverted non-social types that can't get anything easily?


It's not a bad thing. I'm just not motivated to sit and watch it by myself.


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## Kanerou (Oct 8, 2009)

Arbite said:


> "If a man viewed my aversion to him fapping to other women as an "unhealthy weakness..."
> 
> Seems pretty clear that you have an aversion to a partner fapping. I don't see what there is to read into that.


Is fapping to other women the only kind of fapping you can conceive of?


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## Arbite (Dec 26, 2010)

Kanerou said:


> Is fapping to other women the only kind of fapping you can conceive of?


Masturbation requires sexual fantasy. I've never met someone who has exclusively fapped to only the thoughts of their own partner. So... yes.


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## Kanerou (Oct 8, 2009)

Arbite said:


> Masturbation requires sexual fantasy.


It does not _require_ fantasy; the fantasy does help.



> I've never met someone who has exclusively fapped to only the thoughts of their own partner.


Well, that's the crowd you're around. Doesn't mean everyone is that way. 

I don't think I would have an aversion to a partner masturbating without fantasy if I was unavailable and would be for some time (say I was too tired or stressed, very busy, away for a long period of time). If other women (men) are involved, I have a problem with it.


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## Arbite (Dec 26, 2010)

Kanerou said:


> It does not _require_ fantasy; the fantasy does help.


It does _require_ fantasy. Unless a person is a robot. It is sexual pleasure, and the person doing it will be fantasizing about the act of sex (in some form or another). To masturbate without fantasizing is to do the fap without thinking about sex.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

Kanerou said:


> It does not _require_ fantasy; the fantasy does help.


That's not how masturbation works. You need some kind of stimulation in order to feed that sexual interest. The number of people that could just rub themselves monotonously to a numb orgasmic end would be pretty low in my estimation. It's not that you need to watch cock chugging or face sitting in order to orgasm, but there has to be something there in order to facilitate the act of sex.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Arbite said:


> It does _require_ fantasy. Unless a person is a robot. It is sexual pleasure, and the person doing it will be fantasizing about the act of sex (in some form or another). To masturbate without fantasizing is to do the fap without thinking about sex.


I remember reading once that it was actually healthy to masturbate without any other stimulation (fantasy or porn). Not that I can see the appeal of doing such a thing myself, mind.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Kanerou said:


> Is fapping to other women the only kind of fapping you can conceive of?


Do you masturbate regularly? Are you in a relationship?


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## Kanerou (Oct 8, 2009)

Nonsense said:


> I remember reading once that it was actually healthy to masturbate without any other stimulation (fantasy or porn). Not that I can see the appeal of doing such a thing myself, mind.


It's doable. There are drawbacks, sure; fantasizing makes it easier to get excited, which leads to easier and quicker stimulation. But it is doable.



drmiller100 said:


> Do you masturbate regularly? Are you in a relationship?


I do, though not to other people. I am not in a relationship.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Kanerou said:


> It's doable. There are drawbacks, sure; fantasizing makes it easier to get excited, which leads to easier and quicker stimulation. But it is doable.


Hmm, yeah. It doesn't sound so exciting since I wouldn't be turned on in the first place.^^;


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## Kanerou (Oct 8, 2009)

Nonsense said:


> Hmm, yeah. It doesn't sound so exciting since I wouldn't be turned on in the first place.^^;


I can understand why people would prefer the fantasy. My religion is fairly strict in that regard. Dwelling on something wrong can be the same as taking the action. Fantasizing about a woman sexually is the same as sleeping with her. Actively hating someone is as bad as killing them. And whatever one dwells on is what he/she will eventually turn toward in the outside world: meditation influences the heart/attitude/mindset, which influences behavior. As such, I avoid fantasizing about people in that manner.


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## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

Kanerou said:


> I can understand why people would prefer the fantasy. My religion is fairly strict in that regard. Dwelling on something wrong can be the same as taking the action. Fantasizing about a woman sexually is the same as sleeping with her. Actively hating someone is as bad as killing them. And whatever one dwells on is what he/she will eventually turn toward in the outside world: meditation influences the heart/attitude/mindset, which influences behavior. As such, I avoid fantasizing about people in that manner.


This is the same sort of image-is-reality type thinking that our Type 3 deception world of competition has yielded. My partner, when I have one is not in competition with an image in my head (or a woman on my screen). There is not much of a comparison there, and I at least, am able to discern the worlds of difference between the two. 

Imagination requires that as humans we run scenarios through a simulator. That is our 'fantasy' as you are labeling it here. This facility is at its worst, also its best. For if we can imagine a horror and experience it as such in our minds, then we are somewhat forewarned against making that choice. I would love to see studies on folks unable to imagine well. I would bet that the horrors they perform by action are exacerbated and unrestrained precisely because they cannot imagine it. *Re-assemble Stephanie!
*
The flip side is also true. Acting out a fantasy in ones mind regarding simulating sex with others, exploring those fantasies makes one a better lover and allows a person to step through some tricky physical and emotional scenarios BEFORE they happen in real life with a real partner and cause real damage to their psyches. 

That is my 'twisted' take on fantasy sex with others. A very healthy personal - dare I say - responsibility.

Allowing a person to vent the act of killing someone they 'hate' in their brains without actually doing it can be cathartic and healthy. I'd imagine that some of that might happen on PerC. A religion that supposes that this simulator of fantasy is anything more than a tool that can be used for good or ill, like any other tool, is confused, and stating as truth things that are just relative beliefs. It's down to the personal choice of how that tool is used, again, the INTENT behind it, that carries the moral or humaneness content.


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## Kanerou (Oct 8, 2009)

series0 said:


> This is the same sort of image-is-reality type thinking that our Type 3 deception world of competition has yielded. My partner, when I have one is not in competition with an image in my head (or a woman on my screen). There is not much of a comparison there, and I at least, am able to discern the worlds of difference between the two.
> 
> Imagination requires that as humans we run scenarios through a simulator. That is our 'fantasy' as you are labeling it here. This facility is at its worst, also its best. For if we can imagine a horror and experience it as such in our minds, then we are somewhat forewarned against making that choice. I would love to see studies on folks unable to imagine well. I would bet that the horrors they perform by action are exacerbated and unrestrained precisely because they cannot imagine it. *Re-assemble Stephanie!
> *
> ...


I did day we were done. As such, I have no wish to address further replies from you on this matter. However, to be clear, my comment on your twisted attitudes was based on more than your views on porn (specifically on people who object to it). I honestly don't believe that talking to you will do the slightest bit of good, so I choose to save myself the headache.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

series0 said:


> I don't actually have a 'habit' with porn and that is part of what I deem a healthy relationship to it. I have literally forgotten that porn was even there for years at a stretch. Then, by some chance, I find it again and enjoy what it has to offer. I do not depend on it in any way. I do not desire it when I am with a female that has a healthy libido. And it is not porn that I desire when a female I am with has an unhealthy libido. It is for that female to grow and emerge herself in a healthy way and stop distracting herself from her own brokenness with excuses.
> 
> So that is another issue with what you are saying. We are all not perfect. That means growth is possible for each of us. I do think that challenging and hoping that a partner will grow is OK, not a bad thing. It is not a requirement though, my expectations are managed. It is more a hope and exaltation thing. Rewarding any step in the right direction and explaining and diminishing the negative impact of non-emergent choices.
> 
> ...


I see porn as a good thing in my relationship, but I have to say that your post is ... disturbing? I can't put my finger on it, but you have icky word choices and if a prospective SO dislikes porn, keep walking. This attitude really is awkward.


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## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

monemi said:


> I see porn as a good thing in my relationship, but I have to say that your post is ... disturbing? I can't put my finger on it, but you have icky word choices and if a prospective SO dislikes porn, keep walking. This attitude really is awkward.


Yes, sadly, as an ENTP, and no I am not speaking for the entire group, saying awkward things is, well, just part of the love we bring. 

Since you do not actually say what is 'disturbing' to you, other than perhaps a mention of my word choices (and not my position I will note), I cannot address that issue and I am sure that suits you just fine. 

That is precisely the issue this set of posts relates to, if indirectly. The feeling a manipulator gets when that manipulator's world view is challenged by a challenger who reveals that manipulation for what it is, is ... this sense of being disturbed. Then, of course, it becomes necessary to reflect that back onto the challenger in order to maintain an image of distant superiority while simultaneously making the challenger seem odd, all within a practiced veil of vagueness. The actions of a side commentator only, the peanut gallery, not a real participant.

If you would direct me to the words that bother you, I will change the phrasing so that my position on the issue is clearer.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Kanerou said:


> Dwelling on something wrong can be the same as taking the action. Fantasizing about a woman sexually is the same as sleeping with her. Actively hating someone is as bad as killing them. .


I avoid fantasies as well. I just DO things. Killing things is much more satisfying.


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## 626Stitch (Oct 22, 2010)

> The number of people that could just rub themselves monotonously to a numb orgasmic end would be pretty low in my estimation.


Also, if you have ever done that - you have no soul.


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## Brian1 (May 7, 2011)

I think what people are throwing out there is in an ideal world a man's cock would rise at the sight of his girlfriend/wife. There are many single guys out there, I don't see a woman trying to get herself to be my girlfriend, so who is going to give a shit if I look at porn? Nobody. And you can do that for women, how many men come rushing into womens lives to be boyfriends and husbands, to justify woman giving up their artificial sex toys? Probably nobody. So who is going to care if they go ahead with what a lot of society might say tolls from houses of ill repute? Probably no one. Life is too short to be thinking any more thought into these things as it needs to be.


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## PurpleDime (Aug 1, 2012)

I must say porn made me loosen up, and not all fucking everything in sight, but rather people are gonna look and be aroused by it. I never had the exposure to be offended by sexuality. My family never talked about sex, all they said was don't do it and don't get pregnant at 16. 

I just was talking to my husband about porn and me, the instigator, asks, "Do you ever wonder why I'm not offended that you watch porn?" He was rather speechless. I still have NOT received my answer, lol.

When I initially watched porn, I found it hilarious, especially that dude Wesley Pipes and all the shit he talks. But then I started observing his penis and saw it never really got hard and I became unintrigued. Maybe porn would do it for me if the people actually seemed like they liked it, but I never get that vibe so I get bored and start reading forums and motherjones.com and shit.


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## 626Stitch (Oct 22, 2010)

> The flip side is also true. Acting out a fantasy in ones mind regarding simulating sex with others, exploring those fantasies makes one a better lover and allows a person to step through some tricky physical and emotional scenarios BEFORE they happen in real life with a real partner and cause real damage to their psyches.


Using fantasies for exploration is one thing and I agree it is positive and healthy. However this is not what moderate to heavy porn use is really about in practice. In practice heavy porn users replay the same or similar kinds of scenarios over and over in their minds. It is more about conditioning than exploration. The breadth of potential experiences becomes narrower especielly when experience is defined in the richness of human feelings rather than variety of mechanical actions. Even when a porn user is seeking novelty, it is usually novelty of various superficial things while other features of the porn experience remain the same. Novelty itself becomes a constent experience and one becomes conditioned to specific forms of novelty.

Porn increases ones sex drive while making it harder to have a satisfying sexual expirience in practice. 

In principle I agree with your thoughts on exploreing fantasies. Having the ability to allow your mind to wander is a usefull skill and if done properly increases self knowledge and self controll. I think puritanical ideas about how fantasy is tantomount to cheating are dangeroues. However I dont think your views relate to how porn is often used by males I know where it does have a harmfull effect in my view. Most porn use is about fixation rather than exploration as I have allready elaberated

Maybe it would be ok to occasionally watch a variety of different types of porn. However I know in my case this takes more mental energy than simply avoiding porn altegether.

I think a lot of men would do well simply to abstain from porn rather than watch it regularly as many do. This is especielly true if one does not get many reall sexual opertunities (and despite all the propaganda about hook up culture the reality is most men only have semi regular sex if they are in a relationship).


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## Slider (Nov 17, 2009)

There is a fucking male porn guy who goes to my gym and I recognized him!!!

FUCK!

Now I need to find a new gym.


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