# Are you secure in your gender?



## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

Given recent threads... 

I was curious in starting a discussion on the perception of your own gender and whether or not you feel comfortable with the generalities of your sex and/or gender expression, role and identity... and in turn, how that shapes your relationships with others, how that is perceived from others, or affects your own perceptions of members of your gender and others... 

feel free to expand upon this or produce more coherent questions of your own for others to answer


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## ENFPathetic (Apr 3, 2018)

Well, I'm a man and the thing that defines that is my biology. Social/cultural expectations are inconsistent and irrelevant to the fact. I dislike how people treat gender like a member's club. If you don't meet the standards your card will get revoked, or if you don't like it, it's ok to leave. That's bullshit. Your gender is not something you're trying be, it's what you are.

I've had similar issues with skin colour. The amount of times I've been accused of not being black enough because I didn't fit the right stereotypes is beyond ridiculous.

Over the years I've learned how to filter out the useless information from the useful. If you want to know if someone is worth listening to, disagree with them on something they feel strongly about. If they can disagree with you and remain respectful, their opinion is worth listening to, even if it opposes what you believe in. If they can't, they're probably going to be just another sheep. Age is also a good indicator. Older people tend to know what they're talking about.


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## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

Gender is no construct and the school from which this theory is coming from had a specific goal in mind when it was generated - to destroy the family structure in order to leave the individual helpless and in need of big daddy government.


ENFPathetic said:


> If you want to know if someone is worth listening to, disagree with them on something they feel strongly about. If they can disagree with you and remain respectful, their opinion is worth listening to, even if it opposes what you believe in. If they can't, they're probably going to be just another sheep. Age is also a good indicator. Older people tend to know what they're talking about.


Interesting, how do you define respect? Where would you put your borders? 
For example, would someone who remains courteous with you but who disregards your points and twists your words to have a different meaning be regarded as maintaining respect in your eyes? What about someone who disregards your own definition of what's good for you and tries to make you go agree with what they see as best for you?
Also what's the best proven way in your experience to deal with it?


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

I'm secure in having a masculine identity and perceived as male but by today's general conventions and standards, I'd not be considered biologically male. So, much like the additional information of my sexuality or the varied sociocultural attributes of idealized masculine archetypes of the male sex directed towards roles, expression, interests and in terms of both archaic and modern diatribe on sex and gender... how I'm perceived changes with the addition of such details. 

It would be impossible to say that issues and experiences surrounding my biological variance hasn't left me without some hangups along with other identifiers. I don't believe it has bearing on being masculine. . . . But I'd say outside of that, growing up I did struggle in my interactions with the majority of other men (and many women as well) being quiet, introverted, mechanically minded and studious than athletic, extroverted and rambunctious as was the expected norm in the region and era I grew up in. 

So, obviously, I just viewed myself as separate to one of those guys... which was likely helped by having male friends and role models of similar disposition. Still, that aspect did hurt my relationships with men that were like that.. and towards women that saw it othered or neutered than within the spectrum of masculinity.


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## Whippit (Jun 15, 2012)

I guess I'm secure in my biological sex. I've got a penis, male hormones, including male pattern balding, maybe a future of prostate cancer, who knows, and I'm pretty cool with it. My gender, being male--Any gender identity claims are restrictive, no matter who you are or where you go. It's like this bag of shit other people foisted on you because of your reproductive bits, or because you chose it from the multiple choice test. The bag of shit being roles expectations, trait expectations, transference, etc, etc.

I wouldn't say I'm insecure with being male, I find it cumbersome, as cumbersome as any one of the X identity roles that society seems to require me to pick from.


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## ENFPathetic (Apr 3, 2018)

Fru2 said:


> Interesting, how do you define respect? Where would you put your borders?
> For example, would someone who remains courteous with you but who disregards your points and twists your words to have a different meaning be regarded as maintaining respect in your eyes? What about someone who disregards your own definition of what's good for you and tries to make you go agree with what they see as best for you?
> Also what's the best proven way in your experience to deal with it?


Acting in good faith. The lines are drawn around the topic at hand. When you start to move away from the topic and start talking about how you feel about me, I'm done listening.

No. Both are good examples of disrespectful behaviour. Unfortunately it's quite common too.

It really depends. Are they old enough to be my parent? I'll listen and try to ignore the lack of respect as best I can. I could still learn a thing or two from them. If they're my friends, I'll be quick to set them straight. If they can't disagree with me without being a bitch about it they need to shut the fuck up. If they're strangers, I'll usually just walk away from them and make a mental note that they're an idiot.


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

I dislike it when people point out some of my qualities they consider 'feminine' (even though I am ok with having those qualities as such) and hate it when I'm expected to perform femininity in one form or another... so probably not secure.
As for identity, as a kid I remember specifically wanting to be seen as a 'tomboy', but not one of the boys lol.


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## OneTriz (Jul 17, 2019)

Rift said:


> Given recent threads...
> 
> I was curious in starting a discussion on the perception of your own gender and whether or not you feel comfortable with the generalities of your sex and/or gender expression, role and identity... and in turn, how that shapes your relationships with others, how that is perceived from others, or affects your own perceptions of members of your gender and others...
> 
> feel free to expand upon this or produce more coherent questions of your own for others to answer


Gender, to me, is a multifaceted concept that can refer to many subfacets. I am not secure in my gender identity but I'm rather indifferent to my gender role. Gender expression cannot be changed very much due to my parent's influence.

If I were to describe my gender identity as it is currently, I'd say I'm a 'lesbian-identified male' but inverted. i.e I'm a 'female gay man if that makes sense. I don't want to sound like someone fetishizing gay male identities, but I do identify more with masculinity, prefer to avoid the company of women, and am 'kind of' attracted to men.

I have a whole history with transgender topics, even going so far as to identify a a female-to-male transgender for some months in 2018-2019. It ended suddenly with me waking up and wanting to be a girl again, it was really weird, but the feelings ended up coming back, but lessened.

To this day I still have the occasional dysphoria and some may have suggested a non-binary identity for me, but I don't feel like that quite fits. For now I identify as a woman that is trying to pick up masculine ideals and traits in a self-improvement manner. I'd heavily prefer to be a biological male but unfortunately that will never ever be me and I have to accept that. I would rather not transition because of many reasons that I can elaborate on if prompted to.

For my gender role, I try to dismiss and ignore when people try to teach me how to be feminine, whether intentionally or not. Maybe one day I can identify more with it, but I'd rather have a more masculine core.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

I think I am pretty secure in my gender.

I don't believe most generalizations--or I believe that they are just different mirrors or lenses to view the same thing...they don't bother me unless they are distorted into a caricature for the purpose of propaganda that is intended to erode empathy and dehumanize a group, leading the way for gross human rights violations against them etc. OR if someone insists that their one lens is the correct one and the only correct one. If it is, I'd like to see it--but so far I've never found a very specific lens to be the entire picture.

To me, my gender is what I make it to be as well as how others see the gender.

I don't feel limited by it because I know it is a construct that I also create and give meaning to. But I also like to learn what kinds of meanings have been attributed to my gender throughout history, as it is interesting and it gives insight into the minds of the people who had such perceptions, plus many of them can be beautiful and some are a bit terrifying even if ridiculous. So it's fun.

But I've never questioned whether I was female or a woman--I suppose some people might see me as masculine and I have played around with pretending to be or taking on that role at times for fun, but...I still identify with my gender just fine. I don't feel the need to identify as anything other than female or feminine. It also matches the gender I was assigned at birth.

I have been more insecure at different times in my life though and I feel I've gone through a lot to gain the amount of security I feel. I knew from a young age I was a girl and I've spent my life figuring out what that means.

I mean...I also consider myself a human, and a human first--and I don't really see that much difference between the genders, aside from socializing, shared experiences, and some other stuff--when it comes to individual bodies.

I am fortunate in many ways, and I am fortunate to feel like I can be a creative force in defining what my gender means to me. And I am also fortunate that I never had a very big conflict with my gender identity, and I don't presume to know all the work and struggle that can entail.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

I don't really have issues like anxiety concerning my sex but socializing with other women always caused some problems because I often don't see a reason to do what they do. I've been pressured a lot to wear make up for example, or dress similar to them, have children, marry, etc. They'll often say "be more womanly". Thus I appear to have some "male" behaviors and people can dislike that and try to correct it. My mother complains both her daughters are only half-women 🤷‍♀️ . I don't really care about any of that, it can just be annoying to be pressured when socializing. I don't try to be a tomboy either, I guess I just have an unusual combination of traits that people can be surprised by. Prob common for NE doms since we express rarer traits.


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## eeo (Aug 25, 2020)

Being female has been a much more uncomfortable experience than I anticipated as a kid. I kind of ignored the signs as a kid, being told to be proper because that's what good girls do, boys behave like rascals but girls never do. It didn't feel bad at the time, but looking back, it was bad because the pressure started when I was really young. And yes, of course guys feel pressured like that as well.

I've had the most issues with my appearance, being told how I should or should not look, what I should or should not wear, how I should or should not behave as a female, be more feminine but not too much, don't draw bad attention to yourself by being too girly, etc. That has always been more important than what I'm thinking, feeling or doing with my life. I've gotten that from both genders, so they're both equal in my eyes, and I've struggled to form meaningful relationships with both. I've felt pressured to be like others think women should be like, and I've always wanted to fight back and do whatever I felt like to spite them. So I formed my identity around that. I feel female, but...; I act female, but...; I have feminine qualities, but... "Female, but..." I think that's what people perceive me as well, but I've never asked.

In that sense, not conforming to these expectations has had a negative influence on me because I've wondered whether it would be better to look and be genderless to escape all that. I know it wouldn't, but still...


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## Summer70 (Feb 27, 2021)

I was called a tomboy until the end of high school (in French we say "Garçon manqué // missed boy", 'someone who should have been born male but was born female'). I suppose I had personality traits that were perceived as more masculine than feminine. I used to relate more to boys than girls until having to face problematics such as sex, pregnancy or motherhood, so I was ok with this term.

Overall my biological sex and gender isn't an issue to me. It's such a non-issue than I don't even know what else to mention. I feel liked, respected, and free to be what I want to be. I also feel seen for who I am regardless of my sex or gender. I'm happy to have been born a woman in my country capital, even if I often want to pee with a dick and want to ditch my menstruation. That's about it.


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## Eugenia Shepherd (Nov 10, 2017)

I'm a woman; I'm secure in, and enjoy, my own (version of) femininity.

Partially, I resemble a traditionally feminine female _anyway_ (naturally).
Speaking in generalities/stereotypes:
I don't see myself as fragile, codependent/clingy, anxious/fearful, or sensitive (I'm not),
but I am cheerful, receptive, mild, and socially-perceptive--which, I realize, men can be this way also--that said,
it's generally considered more feminine.

Don't get me wrong... I never changed personality... I just focused on what was there already.

I can't lie--I'm not all that masculine.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

I have a very ''masc'' appearance: 6 feet tall, muscular frame, bearded, jeans and t-shirt etc. But I knew very early in life that I wasn't going to be a stereotypical jock. I don't have an athletic bone in my body, I hate sports, I don't give a shit about cars, I can't fix anything for the life of me, I've never been in a fight, I can't lift anything for shit.

So I essentially just refer to myself as an intellectual and beta male.


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

I don't care about my gender. My personality traits are probably "conventionally masculine" in that I am confident, competitive, domineering, "stoic".
But generally, I am not concerned with how masculine or feminine my traits are. Gender seems like irrelevant thing to my identity. Or even humaneness.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Eugenia Shepherd said:


> I'm a woman; I'm secure in, and enjoy, my own (version of) femininity.
> 
> Partially, I resemble a traditionally feminine female _anyway_ (naturally).
> Speaking in generalities/stereotypes:
> ...


The discomfort admitting that you are feminine is interesting, as well as needing to defend the “positive” traits.

I’ve seen through my life experience much more shade thrown at feminine qualities than masculine ones, in general, and share this discomfort. I remember when I was young, I quickly learned to associate being a girl with being weak or helpless or disadvantaged somehow, and so I admired and sought more masculine-seeming traits and mindsets, or masculine-behaving women as role models (if not male role models).

Looking back on it, there was a certain cruelty/indifference/disrespect towards feminine women in my youth which I have yet to come to terms with. The fact is that I am most definitely a woman, enjoy being a woman, and barring the societal conditioning that I should avoid being “too feminine” as this is somehow negative, I strive to have more compassion for my body, for other women, and for the more “yin” side of life and what it offers. It is an ongoing process.


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## attic (May 20, 2012)

Sex and identity I have no problem with, gender role... to some extent I guess. I had a problem more with the things associated with girly than womanly, but I still fit the stereotypes for woman better than stereotypes for men I'd say. I might have found it harder had I lived in cultures and subcultures with more conservative ideas, but I don't really feel that much pressure to conform now. But a little, from some direction to be more feminine(more girly workmates that frowned a bit on my lack of beautycare etc.) and then there is also sometimes some expectations "not to conform". I almost always wear skirt or dress for example, I like it better, and that I do it almost always is that I get skinproblem from trousers, tiny dots that itch lots, but people sometimes seem to see it as some sign that I am not a modern free woman, that I should wear trousers for equality! haha. It has not been stated clearly, but between the lines in discussions a few times. Well those were just examples of more superficial things... I think being sort of "motherly" in the aspect of a bit mushy sympathy, encouragement and comforting, is one of the roles that seems a bit expected and that I have difficulty filling (usually don't want to either, but with young children it sometimes seemed fitting, but I felt a bit lost in those situations). I mean I can show sympathy, encouragement and comfort people, but not in that way? it is likely more clear in real life, the reserved expression, a bit of "ok, enough now, lets get to it and do something" if it seemed like wallowing, if serious I have more patience, but still wont be mushy (haha, no mushing, and no gushing!). But in general I tend to value values associated with women more than ones associated with men I think, softer approaches, cooperation, holistic... As a child I was never a tomboy, but not a girly girl either.


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## attic (May 20, 2012)

Squirt said:


> The discomfort admitting that you are feminine is interesting, as well as needing to defend the “positive” traits.
> 
> I’ve seen through my life experience much more shade thrown at feminine qualities than masculine ones, in general, and share this discomfort. I remember when I was young, I quickly learned to associate being a girl with being weak or helpless or disadvantaged somehow, and so I admired and sought more masculine-seeming traits and mindsets, or masculine-behaving women as role models (if not male role models).
> 
> Looking back on it, there was a certain cruelty/indifference/disrespect towards feminine women in my youth which I have yet to come to terms with. The fact is that I am most definitely a woman, enjoy being a woman, and barring the societal conditioning that I should avoid being “too feminine” as this is somehow negative, I strive to have more compassion for my body, for other women, and for the more “yin” side of life and what it offers. It is an ongoing process.


I think this is interesting. 

I wonder if it is parts of the stages for equality, that first it took quite some conforming to the traits of the powerful group, men, to be able to gain more power and get places in the male dominated areas, and that it sometimes brought along taking on the negative judgements of the feminine traits as weak. But then as society becomes more equal that starts to wane slowly, and the the traits associated with feminine gets more valued again, for both men and women, but without the parts leading to suppression.


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## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

Gender roles are weird, since every behavior is evidenced by males and females. Observing people, the most insecure in their genders, are the ones who cleave the hardest to their gender roles.


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## Electra (Oct 24, 2014)

I am a viking 😆😅
We are not exactly normal females 🤭😱🙊
Sorry about that! 🧝🏻‍🧝🏻‍♀️🎻⚔


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## MsMojiMoe (Apr 7, 2021)

Honestly, I don’t care...I mean I don’t think about it or really identify with it. I am female, I love being female and yes I notice female issues more but that’s it. As far as I go to relate To my gender.

im more of a cerebral person so I identify with more mental stuff like character and morals. I could care less about this, it’s not important in my life. 

so I guess I’m comfortable I really just don’t think abou5 it.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

I'm clearly a man. But I still don't feel that I'm very manly. But I'm not womanly either.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

Competing to be an ''Alpha male'' and the ultimate bro seems like way too much work for me TBH. As long as you're comfortable with who you are, you'll attract people no matter what. You just have to accept that they probably won't be the Kardashian/1 million followers on Instagram type. Which again.....sounds exhausting. 

But not wanting to go all Joe Rogan here, if you're an out of shape basement dweller and you think those are the kind of women you should get, then be warned because you just might be the next author of a mass shooting.


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## estera (Mar 15, 2021)

ENFPathetic said:


> Well, I'm a man and the thing that defines that is my biology. Social/cultural expectations are inconsistent and irrelevant to the fact. I dislike how people treat gender like a member's club. If you don't meet the standards your card will get revoked, or if you don't like it, it's ok to leave. That's bullshit. Your gender is not something you're trying be, it's what you are.
> 
> I've had similar issues with skin colour. The amount of times I've been accused of not being black enough because I didn't fit the right stereotypes is beyond ridiculous.
> 
> Over the years I've learned how to filter out the useless information from the useful. If you want to know if someone is worth listening to, disagree with them on something they feel strongly about. If they can disagree with you and remain respectful, their opinion is worth listening to, even if it opposes what you believe in. If they can't, they're probably going to be just another sheep. Age is also a good indicator. Older people tend to know what they're talking about.


Why can't everyone think like this?? Oh, that's right! The digital world!

“The goal in psychological warfare of any sort is to distort a target’s perception of reality in order to bring about a change in behavior.” ― *Clint* *Emerson*, 100 Deadly Skills 

Hail social media, modern movies, the internet, and all other psychological weaponry that makes reality appear to be a malleable construct. Disconnect from the digital world folks, especially social media, and you'll start feeling more comfortable with your gender. Get out of your head and into your body! Root your life on experiences, not just on thought processes. Practice gratitude. Contribute to your community instead of expecting life to pet and coddle you. Go do something daring. Live a little. And again: get out of your head and into your body!


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## TheUnnecessaryEvil (Mar 28, 2021)

_Looks down pants._
Yep. Pretty secure.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Rift said:


> Given recent threads...
> 
> I was curious in starting a discussion on the perception of your own gender and whether or not you feel comfortable with the generalities of your sex and/or gender expression, role and identity... and in turn, how that shapes your relationships with others, how that is perceived from others, or affects your own perceptions of members of your gender and others...
> 
> feel free to expand upon this or produce more coherent questions of your own for others to answer


I am male (I don't know what else to say about that).


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## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

tanstaafl28 said:


> I am male (I don't know what else to say about that).


Aren't you supposed to wax eloquent about how many ways you're so manly?


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

mia-me said:


> Aren't you supposed to wax eloquent about how many ways you're so manly?


I'm not some macho alpha male, but I'm no pushover either. I really don't like bullies. That's about it.


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

tanstaafl28 said:


> I am male (I don't know what else to say about that).





mia-me said:


> Aren't you supposed to wax eloquent about how many ways you're so manly?


like being a true renaissance man.. of high heels, puffy frock, wig and tasteful makeup?

and how its affected his relationship with other blokes being a prime specimen of masculinity... or the sheer exhaustion from helping up all those lasses that get weak in the knees just at the sight of it all...


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## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

Rift said:


> like being a true renaissance man.. of high heels, puffy frock, wig and tasteful makeup?
> 
> and how its affected his relationship with other blokes being a prime specimen of masculinity... or the sheer exhaustion from helping up all those lasses that get weak in the knees just at the sight of it all...


For the record, tans' a cool guy, one of my faves on PerC.


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

estera said:


> Why can't everyone think like this?? Oh, that's right! The digital world!


while true with a loto f the meta fuckery that has taken hold.. these issues existed before the expanse of the internet. 

common among those that are going through, have gone through or at least their age based peers have gone through puberty. 

and sometimes, prior for those that recognize or don't understand the social divisions between boys and girls while growing up. . .

the general coming of age experience as we navigate towards adulthood and establish our place within society and our communities...


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

I’m fine with my gender

I’m happy I’m a woman I’ve never felt like I am a man.

I’m a tomboyish female. But it never made me question my gender. 

I will say one thing that irks me is men getting paid more in my experience in my workplaces. 

At my work they’re hiring a maintenance person. And willing to pay more than I make. Well yeah it’s irritating when I find out the last doofus who dinked around all day got paid more than me. They can’t exactly hire top of the line high end educated boiler operator and carpenter trained maintenance dudes. They hire these doofuses who don’t even know how to mud and tape proper half the time. So they get paid to dink around higher than me who has paid their dues and doesn’t dink around. It’s systematic. It’s because all places in my area are set like that and they know they can’t pay lower to get a warm body in to do that job. Which is obviously predominantly male oriented. Well they don’t have to offer as much for my role (even though it’s actually more work). 

I both organize, lead, set up, minimally 60 activities/events a month, and market/advertise, implement, and track/report data. So no I don’t think some guy farting around with a tool cart talking to everyone all day should have been getting paid more than me who literally does fricken 5 jobs. Just to be clear I love my job. It’s just ridiculous that last doofus got paid $4 more an hour to fuck off all day because of this systematic obvious wage gap in my area. 

One other thing I can’t say I like about my gender that I associate with females is acting clicky and alienating people. I tend to always eventually adapt and get along. But usually when I’m newer in a setting I get sorta alienated. I mean I sorta know it’s because I’m so extra/intense in what I do work wise etc. So initially people don’t know what to make of me. I’m one of those annoying people who has alotta experience/trades and excels at a lot and so women are sorta like who the fuck does this bitch think she is when they first meet me 🤣. Later they get to know me and I’m usually friends with everyone. But it’d be nice if women weren’t so territorial and clicky. 🤷🏻‍♀️. I grew up moving around a lot. As an adult I’ve reinvented myself a lot and moved here and there. But I find most people don’t usually try to speak with and get to know me initially. I am usually polite. Anyways younger I didn’t necessarily care as much. Older though sometimes it kinda hurts my feelings. My kids are getting older they have their own things going on. I don’t have a significant other. I invest a lot into what I do. So it’d be nice to have more friendliness etc in day to day life, and not feel like I’m just a task/entertainment master 🤣. I was whining about it the other day to my INFJ Sis she was like since when do you care if girls are mean to you. Weh 😭.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

attic said:


> I almost always wear skirt or dress for example, I like it better,


Imo dresses are very practical. I used to wear dresses almost exclusively, and that is partly because with a dress you just have one item of clothing to choose--that's it. It doesn't seem like much, but it's freeing to not have to pick multiple clothing items like pants, shirt, vest etc.

Dresses have this reputation of being fancy, but I find they take less thought to get dressed in, not unlike coveralls.

Plus you can always fold the dress up like shorts if you need to open your legs a lot--like tie a knot in the leg part. And they can also usually double as something to wipe your hands on (like if you're doing charcoal) or you can sometimes use the extra fabric to carry something.

Dresses are underrated.

I relate to what you're saying though, about being judged for seeming too feminine or not. I guess everyone judges for different things. One of my ex's used to get irritated at me for wearing dresses as I guess he thought it was unusual. But they are very practical.

Edit: I also want to say something about the utility of some clothing that might seem "primitive" to some--like the sarong. Sometimes simplicity is very versatile--traditional women's clothing can multitask sometimes--like wrap dresses, or dresses with string ties to adjust, or just sarongs that you wrap in various ways to be clothing, but you could also use to carry things or even carry a baby. So it makes me wonder about traditional feminine clothing and how much people forget the utility that such clothing provides. Even dresses and skirts were probably designed to allow women to pee without having to pull down their pants etc...since most women squat to pee and in pre-industrial times women might not have had private toilets to use.


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

just thought these might be relevant to the thread:





(a proxy that might work if the video above is blocked for you: https://thebigbangorphan.xyz/watch?v=GJBo2eqzVe8&__cpo=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cueW91dHViZS5jb20 )





(a proxy that might work if the video above does not: https://thebigbangorphan.xyz/watch?v=LnYHWUTkFMU&__cpo=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cueW91dHViZS5jb20 )

(perhaps I should add 'distorted' image of self vs popular or normative sex and gender standards to the original post... from the light to the extreme, and how that affects their mental health and/or colours their perspective on the world, their intereactions, politics, etc) 


* *


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## Worriedfunction (Jun 2, 2011)

You know, I've really never thought about it...

I'm a man sexually, though the subtleties of your own personal conduct in how you behave and present I'm not too concerned with.


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## estera (Mar 15, 2021)

Rift said:


> while true with a loto f the meta fuckery that has taken hold.. these issues existed before the expanse of the internet.
> 
> common among those that are going through, have gone through or at least their age based peers have gone through puberty.
> 
> ...


This is true, and a hole in the argument only due to poor wording on my part. Shoulda made that a broader statement by specifying that the digital age has AGGRAVATED these issues by shoving it down the throats of an age group that is not yet mature enough, or experienced enough to even consider this type of information while also making wise decisions with it. Many teens are unknowingly ruining their lives and limiting future opportunities by committing irreversible damage to their biology (hysterectomies, hormone replacement therapies, etc. etc.) without being aware of the consequences or limitations they place on themselves because of it. Why can't everyone understand that not everything that seems to make sense to us, or that sounds good, is necessarily true?


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## Whippit (Jun 15, 2012)

Rift said:


> just thought these might be relevant to the thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Total aside, but I am a fan of Karoliona's stuff. Maybe it's not an aside, cuz I'm a MAN, and I'm not expected to be interested. Because my mom was a seamstress, I grew up in fabric stores and sewing rooms. My mom was a piece of work, relational-wise, but I do feel like I got my DIY and creative-builder impulses from her. I'm interested in how all kinds of regular things are made, including clothing.

Also fashion is so effing interesting. It's a language that you're speaking even if you don't mean to say anything, and understanding that through history shows how many things we assume are human nature, are cultural and shifting, like styles, beauty standards and... gender expression.


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

estera said:


> This is true, and a hole in the argument only due to poor wording on my part. Shoulda made that a broader statement by specifying that the digital age has AGGRAVATED these issues by shoving it down the throats of an age group that is not yet mature enough, or experienced enough to even consider this type of information while also making wise decisions with it. Many teens are unknowingly ruining their lives and limiting future opportunities by committing irreversible damage to their biology (hysterectomies, hormone replacement therapies, etc. etc.) without being aware of the consequences or limitations they place on themselves because of it. Why can't everyone understand that not everything that seems to make sense to us, or that sounds good, is necessarily true?


yes, totally agree. the real weakness of the digital age is the transference and extension of peer pressure echo chambers to mainstream culture.. phases which most people would grow out of are instead solidified.. and there are a fewer places for those caught in the crossfire of the variable extremes to freely exist. it's created a hostile environment, like many college campuses have become, with a bootlick mentality of you're either with us or against us, and if against, you're a product of the worst evil, therefore. . . any deviation from the sentiments of the popular divide comes with the very real threat to life, living and to that of all in one's circle for guilt by association. 

for youth, it's akin to gang membership (the volatile fandoms are a clear representation of that).. for adults, it's a cult of righteous rage against those deemed possessed by spiritually demonic entity only to be 'saved' by violent submission or purified in flame wars.






horseshoe theory abounds. 

yet at the same time, it is not reality.. even as it crosses over into it. 

the expanse of secular fundamentalism.


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

Rift said:


> Given recent threads...
> 
> I was curious in starting a discussion on the perception of your own gender and whether or not you feel comfortable with the generalities of your sex and/or gender expression, role and identity... and in turn, how that shapes your relationships with others, how that is perceived from others, or affects your own perceptions of members of your gender and others...
> 
> feel free to expand upon this or produce more coherent questions of your own for others to answer


Yes, I'm comfortable with my gender. I'm a heterosexual make who doesn't fit every definition of what it means to be a male. I'm also fine with that. I don't have to be a stereotypical man to be a man. And I know many others who aren't.

I love the way ENTPathetic puts it: _"Well, I'm a man and the thing that defines that is my biology. Social/cultural expectations are inconsistent and irrelevant to the fact. I dislike how people treat gender like a member's club. If you don't meet the standards your card will get revoked, or if you don't like it, it's ok to leave. That's bullshit. Your gender is not something you're trying be, it's what you are."_

You don't have to fit a certain stereotype to be a certain gender or sex. And there are many other people who feel that way. Just let people be who they want to be, as long as they're not hurting anyone, I see no issue with it.

The good news is that I think we are heading towards a more accepting society. In spite of the media who is trying to portray conflict because that's what gets the views and gets people to comment in the comments.


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## Eu_citzen (Jan 18, 2018)

I'm confident in my gender; to me gender and sex are synonymous.
A lot of what is accredited to the modern gender concepts are personality traits or behaviors, to me.

That said, I never considered myself particularly feminine nor masculine, per se.
These kind of things never mattered to me. Still don't. As someone else put it, earlier on:


> _Your gender is not something you're trying be, it's what you are."_


This resonates with me. I sometimes wonder if people don't slap various labels (gender, demisexual, etc) on themselves to get a sense of belonging to some group. Which defacto I find too limiting, since it never can encompass to complexity of being an individual to its fullest.


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

Eu_citzen said:


> sometimes wonder if people don't slap various labels (gender, demisexual, etc) on themselves to get a sense of belonging to some group. Which defacto I find too limiting, since it never can encompass to complexity of being an individual to its fullest.


tucutes, transtrenders is what some call them. 






but in my case, I find people place such labels on me... 

often times, it's frivolous.. but there are times when it crosses the divide and legislation is proposed to remove my choice in how I identify.

if it's merely about what I am. then I'm neither or both.. decades prior they might have slide the scale to say I'm male but as awareness grows, it still ends up in places of ignorance, if not outright fear and hatred. or now, where some expect me to identify as other.

in the early 2000s, it was proposed in several european nations that people with my kind of variation, abnormality, to be placed on registries, criminal watchlists, because of debunked, archaic research done on a small sect of people in institutions and prisons, argued to explain away all of society's ills. and I have legitimate fears, with the extremism of the kind of issues you mention as well as the extremism from the other side which feeds back and forth, creating a wider divide eclipsing rational thought, that we may end up there again.


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## Deuce (Feb 16, 2021)

Most of the time, I don't really think of me being female as an issue or I don't even think about it at all, it's not paramount to my identity compared to what I love and hate, or to my hopes for the future. I also think of myself as having some traits considered as more masculine in the mix, mainly appearing rather hard and willing to mind my own business most of the times. I don't really relate to the emphasis I see some women putting on having feminine friendships, like if it was some particular achievement in itself. Sometimes I wonder if I would be cut more slack if I was a man on some specific points - are men given more of a free pass with a perceived lack of social graces ? Or with appearing to have a "resting bitch face" ? With being not particularly moved by the sight or idea of children ? Just wondering.


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## Eu_citzen (Jan 18, 2018)

Rift said:


> tucutes, transtrenders is what some call them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


heh, so there was a name to it.

People have (almost) never placed such labels on me, so I have to admit, I fail to see the big deal. 
And even when they have done so, I usually wouldn't care. It's simply of trivial importance to me as a person.
Extrapolating from that; perspective (or lack thereof) might be a factor driving that wedge of separation in.

Of course, trying to bring up legislative measures is a whole different ballgame. And, imo, wrong.

We might end up there again, with people who are "different" being on registers, etc.
Especially in Europe we've been seeing a swing to the right, politically, and to more conservative trends.
That'll likely increase the risks, look at Poland and LGBT community discrimination.

We'll see what goes in other countries. Hard to say. Wouldn't surprise me if the "queer" community comes out on top in the US a few years down the road. Time will tell.

Also, that video is too damn long. lol
I liked the message, though.


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## yubih (Apr 12, 2021)

I've never been secure in my femininity. What I mean is, even if I am born as female and identify as a woman, I still feel like I'm never "feminine" enough, in all aspects of my life: my personality, my interests, my body. There was a time when I was a kid and going through my "I'm not like other girls" phase that this actually made me feel proud about myself, but ever since I grew past that phase I got so sensitive to it, to the point that even just being compared to a man or being seen in a "masculine" light, even as a joke, makes me feel bad about myself
I hate feeling like this because I don't think people should abide by societal gender roles, but still I feel like I feel very much inadequate because I don't. I guess having people comment on my "masculine" characteristics in a negative way ever since I was a child didn't help this matter


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## Eu_citzen (Jan 18, 2018)

Deuce said:


> Sometimes I wonder if I would be cut more slack if I was a man on some specific points -
> are men given more of a free pass with a perceived lack of social graces ?
> Or with appearing to have a "resting bitch face" ?
> With being not particularly moved by the sight or idea of children ? Just wondering.


Just my opinion, take with a grain of salt. Cultural variation will factor in, too.

I would say, men aren't given much of a free pass with a perceived lack of social graces.
But men are given more leeway in terms of being disagreeable.

As for "resting bitch face". 
I believe that to be roughly equal, especially given the current trends of idealizing "hyper social people" in the west.
That might factor in more than anything, maybe?

As for children, roughly equal there, too.


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## daleks_exterminate (Jul 22, 2013)

I genuinely wish people stopped giving gender so much meaning, because overall gender roles are boring, but also ever changing depending on culture/generation. High heels used to be extremely masculine, just as a quick example, but there are so many. Programming used to be mostly women. Most women in history weren't "stay at home moms/ housewifes" etc. Average peasant women worked in shops, fields, brew beer, could become surgeons in Elizabethan England, etc. 

Genuinely if you think women should always clean, wait a good 50 years and that'll be masculine. 

people should just do what they enjoy and stop pressuring others and kids to "play with dolls" or "hammers" because it's more "appropriate"


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## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

I'm fine being biologically female but if I were born a male, I'd be fine with that too. As it stands, some of my interests have le or la stuck in front of them and some are asexual so they're okay for everyone.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

I'm just a straight dude. But somehow it feels difficult to identify as a "straight dude" when I look at this sector of society known as "straight dudes". I see them and basically think "Who tf are these people?".


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## Electra (Oct 24, 2014)

ʸᵉˢ ⁱ ᶠᵉᵉˡ ˢᵉᶜᵘʳᵉ ⁱⁿ ᵐʸ ᵍᵉⁿᵈᵉʳ.


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## Astrida88 (Jun 6, 2019)

I am biologically female and I am mostly fine with that - I wish I had penis sometimes but not enough to get through a sex change. And I like my body so I wouldn't like to get extra hair and muscles. Just the penis part would be usefull because I could pee standing and have proper sex with girls. I also wouldn't have to worry about period, pregnancy and infections (males get them too but for women it's much more severe and easier to catch - you can simply wash up on the outside after sex or swimming, we get the bacterias where soap doesn't reach so we have to depend on our body immunity). 

I identify as genderfluid however and my sexual/romantic preferences are more on the male side. I like woman and femine guys.

I started wearking skirts just recently because I had a huge fear of them before - they were "too femine" and "against my principles" but I gave up because I kind of enjoy wearing them now, in a sexual way, lol. And the ones I wear I simple jeans ones a male would probably wear too if men skirts were allowed. And I mix them with sport shoes.


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## daleks_exterminate (Jul 22, 2013)

Ock said:


> I'm just a straight dude. But somehow it feels difficult to identify as a "straight dude" when I look at this sector of society known as "straight dudes". I see them and basically think "Who tf are these people?".



Reminded me a bit of some of the (I'd say good) points in this:


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Astrida88 said:


> And the ones I wear I simple jeans ones a male would probably wear too if men skirts were allowed. And I mix them with sport shoes.


I'm not even what you would call a feminine dude; I'm just a dude. But nonetheless I went through a skirt wearing phase, but my skirts were like what you said, the kind of skirts men would wear if they could, rather than super feminine skirts with stuff such as lacy stuff, feminine colors, etc. I mixed my skirts that were technically made for women (but seemed kinda gender neutral) with man shoes, man shirts, man hats, and yes, man underwear (sorry, had to go there to make my point).

My reasoning for wearing skirts was basically that pants were once a male only thing in western society, but are now more than acceptable for women. So why do skirts still have to be female only? I thought it would be kinda cool to wear skirts, because why can't I? I wore skirts for 2 summers, even out in public. I gave up on it though after I had grown plenty weary of having to be ever hypervigilant about hostile straight dudes. I'm straight myself, but that's beside the point. But its funny how many people think a skirt automatically means a man is gay. Like I'm pretty sure an item of clothing doesn't determine whether someone is straight or gay. I'm pretty sure being gay is actually rooted in a sexual attraction for your same sex.


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## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

I think I've mentioned it before, but, I should have been born as an 18th century English MAN.

If I was guy I'd definitely fit the part when guys had those founding father pony tails. I also have the face for it. Like the typical English guy you see in period movies, and they have a soft looking face with Morrissey eyebrows and a pony tail, all in their elegant garb.

Dandy!


However, some days I feel girly, some days I don't.
It's rare that I feel attractive as a female though.

...

Overall.

Yes, I should have been a Georgian Dandy.










Being INFP, I would have fit the "romantic guy" type as well hahaha.

_Yes, yes, hello my dear. How are you? That's swell my darling!

Oh, allow me to take that, if I may.

Mind if I join you to dance my dear?


loooool._


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## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

Rift said:


> I'm secure in having a masculine identity and perceived as male but by today's general conventions and standards, I'd not be considered biologically male. So, much like the additional information of my sexuality or the varied sociocultural attributes of idealized masculine archetypes of the male sex directed towards roles, expression, interests and in terms of both archaic and modern diatribe on sex and gender... how I'm perceived changes with the addition of such details.
> 
> It would be impossible to say that issues and experiences surrounding my biological variance hasn't left me without some hangups along with other identifiers. I don't believe it has bearing on being masculine. . . . But I'd say outside of that, growing up I did struggle in my interactions with the majority of other men (and many women as well) being quiet, introverted, mechanically minded and studious than athletic, extroverted and rambunctious as was the expected norm in the region and era I grew up in.
> 
> So, obviously, I just viewed myself as separate to one of those guys... which was likely helped by having male friends and role models of similar disposition. Still, that aspect did hurt my relationships with men that were like that.. and towards women that saw it othered or neutered than within the spectrum of masculinity.


Wait, why wouldn't you be considered "manly" by today's standards? I mean, I thought these days it didn't matter if you were a "macho macho man" or a "metro" man.


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## Vanille (Jun 12, 2021)

Not really... I actually questioned if I was a trans ftm but I realized that what I feel isn't real dysphoria, it's something else, something I'd rather not explain as it's too personal but yeah I've felt suicidal more than once over having a female body...


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## Cephalonimbus (Dec 6, 2010)

Yes.

That's not to say that settling into my gender identity was always a breeze. Growing up without a dad it was a bit of a journey throughout my teens and early adolescence, figuring out what being a man meant to me, especially being a highly sensitive person... but thankfully there was never a dissonance between who I was and what the typical man appeared to be, at least not to the point where I felt a fundamental mismatch and couldn't be my genuine self due to the body I was in or something like that. In most ways I'm a fairly typical guy, and in the ways that I'm not, I was always kind of accepted anyway.

Now I did always struggle with identity to some extent, but more in terms of my role in society at large. I've always had this feeling that I'm expected to fit into a mould that isn't quite my shape, pressured to be a cog in a machine that produces nothing of value. For example: even as a small kid I resisted the notion that we are defined by our occupation, and when adults used to ask me "what do you want to be when you grow up?", I heard an implicit judgment along the lines of "you are nothing, and here are a few prefab choices of what you can become". Needless to say, I've had therapy once or twice :-D


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## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

Yeah, I like being a guy and all, but I'm quite aware of how feminine I am compared to other guy's standards so I feel like an androgynous blob anyway. 🙃 Some days I have felt like my personality would be better suited in a female body, but if I was a female I would just come off like a tomboy and then I'd just end up thinking I might as well have been a guy so it wouldn't really make much difference.
The term "gender fluid" is one I can somewhat relate to, although I don't really use the term much.
Idk. I'm comfortable enough, it's just my nature, it's not like I'm devoid of masculinity either. Peeps can be very black and white in their thinking about this whole thing which is just kinda silly.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

I really don't give a shit about gender roles - I am who I am, I ignore social norms or others' expectations of me. I really don't care how anyone perceives that, either.

I am not 'insecure' in my gender, I just sometimes identify more with the other temporarily for reasons I know are unconscious and I don't quite understand.


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## impulsenine (Oct 18, 2020)

Hexcoder said:


> I really don't give a shit about gender roles - I am who I am, I ignore social norms or others' expectations of me. I really don't care how anyone perceives that, either.
> 
> I am not 'insecure' in my gender, I just sometimes identify more with the other temporarily for reasons I know are unconscious and I don't quite understand.


Are you secure in that?


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

impulsenine said:


> Are you secure in that?


Yes. I really only express it online via my game characters, profile pics, etc. now and then. That's as far as I go. It doesn't bother me. I love both my femininity and my masculinity. I feel like I am a pretty good mix of both, but...at the same time, I think most of these things are just social constructs, so how those are defined is rather vague to me in some ways because I don't care for going by those.


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