# Sticky  Trans People & Support



## Jennywocky

TheLuckyOne said:


> I should probably also mention that my post may have been a little biased because I have an intense and irrational fear of doctors. Generally I refuse to go to the doctor unless I'm missing a limb and bleeding profusely... It doesn't make sense, but it's one of my problems I'm content to just live with.


I can see how that would color what you do and don't want to do, and what you needed to find in order to live with your solution.

I'm not really afraid of doctors. I can't say I'm a big fan of surgical procedures, though; I think nowadays they're relatively smooth if the surgeon is competent, but I still take them very seriously. Some other people don't seem to have any hangups or fear whatsoever of surgery.



> I was not aware that hormones were so cheap though, I may look into that


In the US, you'd be looking at (1) spironolactone, as an anti-androgen, usually 50-200mg day and/or (2) estradiol, usually 2-8mg, as an estrogen. Both are as cheap as what I've said, and even Wal-Mart fills prescriptions for them usually on their cheap-o plan. Some people go on spiro just to lessen the amount of testosterone in their bodies, which might help alleviate some of the emotional anguish; and so you'd get a bit of feminization but not anything like going on full estrogen.

(As somewhat relevant trivia, Androcur is used instead of spiro overseas for transwomen as an anti-androgen; Androcur is also the medication that men with prostate cancer take in the US, because it knocks down your testosterone levels and thus slows the spread of prostate cancer. So men on Androcur will show a bit of feminization but not that much. It gives a decent idea of the impact of spiro too.)


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## Indigo Aria

Jennywocky said:


> In the US, you'd be looking at (1) spironolactone, as an anti-androgen, usually 50-200mg day and/or (2) estradiol, usually 2-8mg, as an estrogen. Both are as cheap as what I've said, and even Wal-Mart fills prescriptions for them usually on their cheap-o plan. Some people go on spiro just to lessen the amount of testosterone in their bodies, which might help alleviate some of the emotional anguish; and so you'd get a bit of feminization but not anything like going on full estrogen.
> 
> (As somewhat relevant trivia, Androcur is used instead of spiro overseas for transwomen as an anti-androgen; Androcur is also the medication that men with prostate cancer take in the US, because it knocks down your testosterone levels and thus slows the spread of prostate cancer. So men on Androcur will show a bit of feminization but not that much. It gives a decent idea of the impact of spiro too.)


Do you know what it might take to get a prescription for an anti-androgen? I've been researching HRT all night, and while I don't think I want to be getting into actual estrogen, I would be very interested in an anti-androgen.

Thanks for being here, you're such a valuable information source


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## Jennywocky

TheLuckyOne said:


> Do you know what it might take to get a prescription for an anti-androgen? I've been researching HRT all night, and while I don't think I want to be getting into actual estrogen, I would be very interested in an anti-androgen.
> 
> Thanks for being here, you're such a valuable information source


I'll send you a PM about it, but typically if you're going through the prescription route, you'd likely have to tie in through therapists/endocrinologists familiar with trans issues. Various support sites typically include a list of resources for particular geographical areas. I can look too if I know what city to look near, for you.


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## MiriMiriAru

Zombie Jesus said:


> Maybe I'm a coward, but this isn't something I think I could go through with. There is a kind of safety in being resigned to my physical body being fundamentally misaligned with how I feel it should be, and my internal image of myself (a crushingly depressing and lonely safety). I have great admiration for those who go through the transition process, and present to the world truly as themselves, but fear of the process (and the dangers therein) and the social consequences, mean that I cannot bring myself to start down a road that might, at least with the current medical technology, lead to disappointment.
> 
> I can't believe how hard it was to post this. It took my half an hour to hit the submit button, and I've considered deleting it several times... It's my first admission of what I've tried to ignore, attempt to rationalize away, or outright deny feeling for 30 years to anyone but myself...


When I wrote this (10 days ago, it feel _much_ longer), the fear I had over what I could lose were I to come out was always greater than my fear of any dangers inherent in the transition process. I think I was using that fear to cover my other, deeper, fear of coming out as transgender, and as an excuse for not coming out. Now that I have accepted myself and come out to my friends and family, I'm not afraid. I'd like to thank @TheLuckyOne and@Fizz for their support, and particularly @Jennywocky, whose advice and support really helped me to understand what is important to me, and what I need to do to truly feel comfortable with myself. 

:dry: I sound like I'm accepting an award or something...


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## Indigo Aria

So this is me officially coming out [online] as trans. I cannot live as a male for the rest of my life, and I'm already the type of person that someone really drunk would think was a girl, so I'm not off to a bad start. It's going to be a while before things really start to happen, but I at least know where I'm going now, if not when.

It's seems so obvious now. I don't know how I made it this far...

Special thanks to @MiriMiriAru


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## heartturnedtoporcelain

Jade Albion said:


> So this is me officially coming out [online] as trans. I cannot live as a male for the rest of my life, and I'm already the type of person that someone really drunk would think was a girl, so I'm not off to a bad start. It's going to be a while before things really start to happen, but I at least know where I'm going now, if not when.
> 
> It's seems so obvious now. I don't know how I made it this far...
> 
> Special thanks to @MiriMiriAru


I didn't see this coming (what people choose to identify as is their own business and I wouldn't want to go around making assumptions), but I'm so so glad you're taking this step and that you'll hopefully be able to feel better in your skin and feel better about your identity.

:happy: :happy:

huh, now the icon change comment makes sense ;P


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## caramel_choctop

Hey, um... I just wanted to say thanks for creating this thread. It's helped me understand that people are _people_ before they're trans or cis or non-gendered (err... is that the right word?) or anything else. 

I'm not going to lie, I'm still not entirely comfortable with the whole "transgender" thing. I've never met a trans person IRL, so I'd probably get a bit of a shock if anyone ever came right out and told me they were trans after I was already used to thinking of them as male or female. But now it's easier for me to accept the idea that "trans" shouldn't define the person.

Yeah.


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## Indigo Aria

caramel_choctop said:


> I'm not going to lie, I'm still not entirely comfortable with the whole "transgender" thing.


Most people aren't. And I blame lack of available knowledge for that. It's not like you can just go to your local church or supermarket and pick up a flyer on transsexuality. And I think the biggest mistake of is the idea made popular in the media that trans people do what they do for sexualized or vain reasons. And while in maybe a very small fraction of cases, that may be true, that's usually the farthest thing from the truth. Transitioning is major decision. You lose friends, you become part of one of the most discriminated against categories of people in the world, you put your entire future and career into jeopardy. This isn't something that is (or should be) taken lightly. Trans people do this because something present in every fiber of their being is screaming out that they can't function properly in the way the world sees them and the way they see themselves.

And I find it hard to blame cis people for not understanding, because they have never had the "opportunity" to feel the dissonance of having to consciously stop and ammend every thought and reaction they've ever had, or to live with the pain of knowing in their hearts that their bodies are entirely wrong and not be able to explain why.

And images such as the "shemale" in _Anger Management_ don't help. But it's very hard to change an entire cultural view on something, but I feel even the smallest amount of public education on the topic would help immensely, but unfortunately, commonly accepted moral standards wouldn't allow for such a thing. We still have much evolution as a species to complete.


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## rustygershon

> And images such as the "shemale" in _Anger Management_ don't help


This reminded me of something that I would like to get other transgendered people's opinions about. Have you seen/heard about the new ABC show Work It? What are your thoughts on it?


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## MiriMiriAru

rustygershon said:


> This reminded me of something that I would like to get other transgendered people's opinions about. Have you seen/heard about the new ABC show Work It? What are your thoughts on it?


That show must be destroyed, all digital copies deleted, and everyone who had anything to do with it burned alive on a pyre fueled with all physical copies of the show, and all props, costumes and whatever used in its production.

The entire thing trivialises the struggles of transpeople to an obscene extent, and reinforces idiotic stereotypes, both about transpeople, and about women.


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## rustygershon

MiriMiriAru said:


> That show must be destroyed, all digital copies deleted, and everyone who had anything to do with it burned alive on a pyre fueled with all physical copies of the show, and all props, costumes and whatever used in its production.
> 
> The entire thing trivialises the struggles of transpeople to an obscene extent, and reinforces idiotic stereotypes, both about transpeople, and about women.


And here I thought I was just being over sensitive. I couldn't believe the commercial when I saw it while watching tv with my girlfriend. She didn't say anything, so I figured I was just thinking too much. But your answer confirms what I thought. I'm thinking now she was probably too offended and pissed off to even say anything.


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## Jennywocky

MiriMiriAru said:


> That show must be destroyed, all digital copies deleted, and everyone who had anything to do with it burned alive on a pyre fueled with all physical copies of the show, and all props, costumes and whatever used in its production.
> 
> The entire thing trivialises the struggles of transpeople to an obscene extent, and reinforces idiotic stereotypes, both about transpeople, and about women.


I haven't even seen the ads.

Historically, I tend to have a more measured response to stuff like that. (For example, I thought the Ace Ventura plotline was actually funny, in the same way that dead baby jokes make me laugh even though I'm horrified by the thought of actual dead babies.) Personality (AKA level of detachment) impacts how someone responds to that sort of thing if it's an issue they've been personally affected by.

Then again, some shows just suck regardless.


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## Jennywocky

Indigo Aria said:


> And I find it hard to blame cis people for not understanding, because they have never had the "opportunity" to feel the dissonance of having to consciously stop and ammend every thought and reaction they've ever had, or to live with the pain of knowing in their hearts that their bodies are entirely wrong and not be able to explain why.[/quote[
> 
> That's one of the big complications. Most cisgens don't have a point of reference to grasp it; when they do, I've found them to be very accommodating. (For example, one of my current best friends finally left a marriage where her spouse had become an addict and she was essentially just playing the role of "mom" for him and finally couldn't do it anymore, both for her own sake and for her little girl. She values marriage and never planned to divorce, but after living in that dead relationship for years, she realized she had to accept reality and make a change because she was dying herself emotionally and nothing was going to get better. She was judged by religious folks for that decision, but I immediately understood it and she immediately understood me when I shared my life story with her.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And images such as the "shemale" in _Anger Management_ don't help. But it's very hard to change an entire cultural view on something, but I feel even the smallest amount of public education on the topic would help immensely, but unfortunately, commonly accepted moral standards wouldn't allow for such a thing. We still have much evolution as a species to complete.
> 
> 
> 
> I've tracked the trans exposure issue in the United States for the last few decades, and even in the last ten years, even in the last five, we've been seeing a HUGE upswing in social support and actual understanding not just by average non-trans people but also politicians and doctors. People might bust on Oprah and pseudo-news shows and the talk show circuit, but they've been very very influential with educating the general public... maybe in the 80's and early 90's, transpeople were freakshow subjects on the talk shows, but the last 5 years have again shown a lot of useful public education, to the point where states across the US have changed some of their laws (such as gender changes on driver's licenses) to accommodate transpeople, surgery is now considered tax-deductible by the IRS (which is notoriously brutal in their scrutinizing of surgical expenses reported on the annual tax return), and more than 200 huge influential US/international companies are including plans that cover transhealth issues.
> 
> So on the contrary, yes, there's still some kneejerk reactions by traditionalists in the US, and some people who really don't understand it, and you see the homophobes putting out really crazy ideas on YouTube like a National Registry of transpeople (as if they were sex offenders), but there's been SO much turn-around in the twenty years, it's pretty clear that in another twenty it's not going to be that big a deal anymore.
Click to expand...


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## MiriMiriAru

Jennywocky said:


> I haven't even seen the ads.
> 
> Historically, I tend to have a more measured response to stuff like that. (For example, I thought the Ace Ventura plotline was actually funny, in the same way that dead baby jokes make me laugh even though I'm horrified by the thought of actual dead babies.) *Personality (AKA level of detachment) impacts how someone responds to that sort of thing if it's an issue they've been personally affected by*.
> 
> Then again, some shows just suck regardless.


From what I could see form the promo I saw, it's pretty horrible. It doesn't directly say anything about transwomen directly, but from the basic premise (two guys dress up as women because apparently women get all the jobs and it's easier to get one as a woman ), to the complete unquestioning acceptance that they are women (when they are so clearly not... actually, this bothered me the most, considering my own and many others anxiety about passing, the blithe acceptance of these two just rubs me totally the wrong way), it's just an insensitive piece of trash.

As for the bold part, I think we've established that I'm very personally effected by things :laughing:


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## Jennywocky

MiriMiriAru said:


> From what I could see form the promo I saw, it's pretty horrible. It doesn't directly say anything about transwomen directly, but from the basic premise (two guys dress up as women because apparently women get all the jobs and it's easier to get one as a woman ), to the complete unquestioning acceptance that they are women (when they are so clearly not... actually, this bothered me the most, considering my own and many others anxiety about passing, the blithe acceptance of these two just rubs me totally the wrong way), it's just an insensitive piece of trash.


Well, I was kind of appalled by "To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything..." because it was ridiculous that either Swayze or Snipes were ever accepted as female by the average woman... only Leguizamo seemed at all believable, even with the drama quotient he had going.

So it comes down to whether it's more that type of movie or a winsome "Bosom Buddies" angle.... 

I remember when "Ticked Off Trannies With Knives" came out, half the community seemed to totally flip out from a political/personal basis and the other half didn't care much.



> As for the bold part, I think we've established that I'm very personally effected by things :laughing:


ha ha, yup... and I can pretty much laugh at anything no matter how offensive it is, depending on the context.


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## Indigo Aria

I found this particularly amusing. And true...



> You Know You’re Trans* When: #1900
> 
> You’ve had to come out to yourself as “heterosexual”.


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## nevermore

MiriMiriAru said:


> From what I could see form the promo I saw, it's pretty horrible. It doesn't directly say anything about transwomen directly, but from the basic premise (two guys dress up as women because apparently women get all the jobs and it's easier to get one as a woman ), to the complete unquestioning acceptance that they are women (when they are so clearly not... actually, this bothered me the most, considering my own and many others anxiety about passing, the blithe acceptance of these two just rubs me totally the wrong way), it's just an insensitive piece of trash.
> 
> As for the bold part, I think we've established that I'm very personally effected by things :laughing:


From what I gather it seems to be going for a "so bad it's good" appeal, except on purpose. But that could just be me being too quick to give people the benefit of the doubt. ("This _can't_ be real, can it? It just looks so...incompetent...")

I don't know whether or not it's fair to call the show offensive to trans people, given the main characters aren't even supposed to be trans. But the show is still offensive - to everyone, because of its lack of comedic taste and general stupidity.


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## MiriMiriAru

nevermore said:


> From what I gather it seems to be going for a "so bad it's good" appeal, except on purpose. But that could just be me being too quick to give people the benefit of the doubt. ("This _can't_ be real, can it? It just looks so...incompetent...")
> 
> I don't know whether or not it's fair to call the show offensive to trans people, given the main characters aren't even supposed to be trans. But the show is still offensive - to everyone, because of its lack of comedic taste and general stupidity.


While the main characters are not supposed to be trans, they are supposed to be male-bodied individuals passing as women. The ridiculous ease with which they achieve this trivializes the immense struggle that many (if not most) trans women face to receive a level of acceptance as their gender even vaguely similar to the characters in the show. I'm really not the only one to think so, either. This does a good job of explaining how and why this show sucks, for trans women, and for women in general (and everyone else really).


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## nevermore

MiriMiriAru said:


> While the main characters are not supposed to be trans, they are supposed to be male-bodied individuals passing as women. The ridiculous ease with which they achieve this trivializes the immense struggle that many (if not most) trans women face to receive a level of acceptance as their gender even vaguely similar to the characters in the show.


First off, just so there isn't any misunderstanding, I want to make it really clear I am not defending the show. After reading your link, I've come to the conclusion that it's misogynistic and in bad taste, not just unfunny (as I saw immediately). The writers seem to have a gross misunderstanding of the actual position of women in society, and read discrimination against men into situations where no thinking person would. They seem to be personally bitter, from my point of view. So I don't at all approve of what they're doing.

As for it trivializing the struggle of trans people to pass? I wouldn't disagree. Now you've explained why, I can see how it would cause feelings of hurt in the trans people who watch it. (I actually thought they were playing the ease with which they pass _for_ "comedy". Most people know no one would accept these people as "women" if they saw them on the street.) But they don't seem to be making fun of or insulting trans people (in the trailer - I have never seen the show), so I still don't feel it's appropriate to call the show "offensive" to them. The show just seems to be insensitive to their struggles; it's not mocking them. What you've described seems like an unintentional consequence of the premise I doubt the writers understood.

That being the case, I condemn the show for being misogynistic in general, and the reviews I've read of it confirm my suspicions that it's as unfunny as it looks.


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## Indigo Aria

nevermore said:


> The show just seems to be insensitive to their struggles; it's not mocking them. What you've described seems like an unintentional consequence of the premise I doubt the writers understood.


You're probably right about that, but the problem is, how much of the general public is going to pick this up? Most people don't understand what's actually different about transvestitism, cross dressing, drag, and transsexuality. It always seems like, to me, that people just lump all that together, and it's really hurtful to be seen like that. I'm a trans girl, not a drag queen. I still present as totally male in public because I wouldn't be able to take being seen as a man in a dress (the 'mones are slowly changing that, though  and dresses aren't my style anyways), and no offense to people in drag, because I don't think it's wrong it's just NOT ME, but I would be so incredibly offended and hurt if someone thought that of me. I'm just a horribly deformed girl, I'm not a fetishist or putting on some show. And while someone like you is smart enough to see that, I think most people wouldn't be, and their perceptions are colored by ignorant portrayals like the one on this show.


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## Fizz

Jennywocky said:


> *Well, I was kind of appalled by "To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything..." because it was ridiculous that either Swayze or Snipes were ever accepted as female by the average woman... only Leguizamo seemed at all believable, even with the drama quotient he had going.*
> 
> So it comes down to whether it's more that type of movie or a winsome "Bosom Buddies" angle....
> 
> I remember when "Ticked Off Trannies With Knives" came out, half the community seemed to totally flip out from a political/personal basis and the other half didn't care much.


They're drag queens, not transwomen. They're supposed to be over the top and unrealistic. Unless they were sold as "drag queens" to the public and actually tried to be representative of transwomen. It's been many years since I've seen that movie.


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## Jennywocky

Fizz said:


> They're drag queens, not transwomen. They're supposed to be over the top and unrealistic. Unless they were sold as "drag queens" to the public and actually tried to be representative of transwomen. It's been many years since I've seen that movie.


Everything is so mingled nowadays cuz of that damn "transgender" umbrella. I wish the term could just be jettisoned, it contributes directly to this kind of conflict where people feel they are all shoved in the same group but that the group definition is not representative of them and even detrimental.

I think another issue is that those unacquainted with the two terms don't see a distinction, they confuse the two. Maybe as public education on the topic continues, it will be less and less of an issue; and the Gen Y's and younger seem to be pretty balanced on the matter; but the older generations still for some reason think transwomen dress in vamp clothes, have poofy hair, wear 2" of makeup on their faces, and wear 6" heels to work.


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## Indigo Aria

Jennywocky said:


> Everything is so mingled nowadays cuz of that damn "transgender" umbrella. I wish the term could just be jettisoned, it contributes directly to this kind of conflict where people feel they are all shoved in the same group but that the group definition is not representative of them and even detrimental.


I'm guilty of clinging to that word, mostly because I hate the ring that "transsexual" has to it. The last time I heard that word, it was my dad slurring it to me in angry rant about how I'm confused and have too much time think :frustrating: Transsexual just says nothing good in my mind and I am having a lot of trouble separating it from its stigma. "Transgender" just feels safer somehow. Less negative connotations, even if it isn't technically correct for me.

But I realize those are my own issues...


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## Jennywocky

Indigo Aria said:


> I'm guilty of clinging to that word, mostly because I hate the ring that "transsexual" has to it. The last time I heard that word, it was my dad slurring it to me in angry rant about how I'm confused and have too much time think :frustrating: Transsexual just says nothing good in my mind and I am having a lot of trouble separating it from its stigma. "Transgender" just feels safer somehow. Less negative connotations, even if it isn't technically correct for me. But I realize those are my own issues...


Yeah, I have seen people on both sides of the fence on terminology; it also could even depend on what area of the country one lives in / what subgroups of the culture one is part of. Sigh. It's funny how everyone is dumped into this even larger LGBT umbrella for political convenience, but the reality is there's a lot of disagreement within rank and file.


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## knittigan

Jennywocky said:


> Yeah, I have seen people on both sides of the fence on terminology; it also could even depend on what area of the country one lives in / what subgroups of the culture one is part of. Sigh. It's funny how everyone is dumped into this even larger LGBT umbrella for political convenience, but the reality is *there's a lot of disagreement within rank and file.*


I don't want to be the awkward interloper, but this has really hit me hard lately. I'm cis, so I don't have any personal experience with being trans, but I'm a philosophy/gender studies double major and it's something that I've been thinking a lot about in the last year. I’m sorry if that makes me sound like an opportunistic academic, blech.

I'm originally from a pretty small city, so it wasn't until I went away to college that I met any trans people, and my first actually legitimate exposure to learning about transgender in an informative way was in a class I took last year on the politics of reading gender and sexuality. The one piece that we read was written by Dean Spade, who is a trans man/academic/feminist who decided to get a chest reconstruction as a political choice, so it focussed a lot on the way that some trans people will reproduce certain narratives that the SRS doctors like to hear in order to get their surgeries and get away from all of the bureaucracy and we also watched a video about how diverse people's opinions were on surgery and passing. I've read quite a bit and learned a lot since then, but the general tone of the video was in terms of rejecting the idea that bodies needed to conform with gender identities, and the whole gender subversion slant and different parts of what was argued really resonated with me and ended up colouring my thoughts on the issue.

But the more and more I read and after meeting a trans woman in one of my philosophy classes and hearing her talk about her experiences, I start to wonder how much of my agreement with that line of argument is a result of never having felt like my body didn't fit or like I had to deny who I was (although, on a _very_ superficial level, I can relate somewhat as an INTJ female what feels like a never ending sea of very "feminine" ESFJs). Maybe being both/neither/not passing is subversive in a sense, but how do you live like that? I truly admire the people who do, but I don't know if I could. Maybe that would be great in an ideal world where everyone is accepting and no one asks you to check either the female box or the male one, but we've still got a long way to go before that's a reality. And furthermore, if someone experiences their self in a particular way, where do I or any of the cis/gender subversionist people even begin to get off telling them that their subjectivity is wrong? That doesn’t really sit right with me. 

Anyway, I just wanted to offer my $0.02 and support. Reading through this thread has been very interesting and informative.


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## MiriMiriAru

Julia Serano makes some good points about how some in the community who are more geared toward the whole "destroy the binary" genderqueer side of the "Transgender" umbrella inadvertently create a hierarchy based on how much of a gender radical one is, with the more binary identified transsexual people at the bottom. 

For some people, it is true that their bodies need not conform, or conform as much, to society's views of gender, however I would question any line of thinking that suggests that bodies need not conform to one's own sense of gender identity. I _know_ what discomforts me about my body, it's not society telling me that I should be one way or another. Even if I were to be stranded alone of a desert island with no chance of rescue for the rest of my life, I would still want the same physical characteristics that I do now. 

I'm not even sure I would consider it ideal to not be able to tick the male or female box, because, for me at least, the idea of being able to do so is empowering. By all means, offer a neutral option to those who identify outside the binary, I'll gladly call them "ze" (or whatever they wish to be called), but I identify as female, not anything else, or in between, and it doesn't sit well with me that anyone would to tell me whether or not I can, or should, identify this way.


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## knittigan

MiriMiriAru said:


> Julia Serano makes some good points about how some in the community who are more geared toward the whole "destroy the binary" genderqueer side of the "Transgender" umbrella *inadvertently create a hierarchy based on how much of a gender radical one is*, with the more binary identified transsexual people at the bottom.
> 
> For some people, it is true that their bodies need not conform, or conform as much, to society's views of gender, however I would question any line of thinking that suggests that bodies need not conform to one's own sense of gender identity. I _know_ what discomforts me about my body, *it's not society telling me that I should be one way or another.* Even if I were to be stranded alone of a desert island with no chance of rescue for the rest of my life, *I would still want the same physical characteristics that I do now.*
> 
> I'm not even sure I would consider it ideal to not be able to tick the male or female box, because, for me at least, the idea of being able to do so is empowering. *By all means, offer a neutral option to those who identify outside the binary, I'll gladly call them "ze" (or whatever they wish to be called), but I identify as female, not anything else, or in between, and it doesn't sit well with me that anyone would to tell me whether or not I can, or should, identify this way.*


That's pretty much exactly what I've been thinking about and to be honest, I want to thank you for making me think about it in a different way. You talked a lot about your experiences in a previous thread where, in retrospect, I feel like a lot of people's cis privilege _really_ showed, mine included. I know that I apologised to you then, but I felt like an absolute ass about it for a long time afterward. I'm not telling you this because I want a pat on the back, but I thought I'd share because it really changed my opinions and that matters a lot to me. I guess it just really goes to show how difficult it can be to understand things that you take for granted and how important it is not to make generalisations and assumptions or act like an authority on things that you _really_ don't understand.


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## Jennywocky

knittigan said:


> I don't want to be the awkward interloper,


I don't think you are -- I thought this post was wonderful. It's really nice to have a discussion about these issues where there are both trans and cisgens represented.



> The one piece that we read was written by Dean Spade, who is a trans man/academic/feminist who decided to get a chest reconstruction as a political choice, so it focussed a lot on the way that some trans people will reproduce certain narratives that the SRS doctors like to hear in order to get their surgeries


Yeah, for awhile it was very much like Wheel of Fortune used to be, where you get to select 5 consonants and a vowel, and people just selected the same sorry letters due to the frequency table being what it is, so eventually they changed the game to vary things up. Basically the docs were rigid -- "This is what a transsexual looks like" -- and if you didn't conform to the standard, you were mislabeled and tossed out. Pragmatically speaking, it made total sense to game the system when you needed the support of those docs in order to get through the process... but it did the patient a disservice in the long run.

I had a really crappy experience with Hopkins a few years back, with an old school shrink, when I didn't conform and got shot in the foot for it. It was a defining but painful moment in my life. I think nowadays, though, most of the docs who don't need to protect the image of their institution are free to deal more with patients where they are at, rather than forcing them to follow a standard script.



> the general tone of the video was in terms of rejecting the idea that bodies needed to conform with gender identities


I think that's one of the biggest shifts that transpeople born in 1990's have contributed to the discussion -- the idea that there is no box one has to fit into, on EITHER end of the spectrum. Your old school transsexuals actually reinforce the gender binary, even if they are jumping from one box to the next; they are still affirming the boxes. Nowadays, there are no boxes. "No-op transsexual" is a common phrase... and many other variations in between. The Boomer generation (not all of them, certaintly, but just as a generation) can be harder to deal with because they more typically will talk about the "script" and what one "needs to do next."



> I start to wonder how much of my agreement with that line of argument is a result of never having felt like my body didn't fit or like I had to deny who I was (although, on a _very_ superficial level, I can relate somewhat as an INTJ female what feels like a never ending sea of very "feminine" ESFJs).


I think the disorientation you might experience in being so "different" and not matching people's expectations for women and thus kind of a stranger in a strange land is a similar kind of feeling -- although there is a physical/visceral aspect to it that Miri mentions in a later post, it's not just about the social dysphoria.



> Maybe being both/neither/not passing is subversive in a sense, but how do you live like that? I truly admire the people who do, but I don't know if I could.


I know I couldn't do it, and I had to work through my own discomfort with the idea so that I could be open to it. Not that it was really hard for me, I'm very open and typically see things from a multitude of perspectives and don't want to dictate what others need to do; but I personally do not understand how someone could live in the middle based on my personal experience. 

So anyhoo, it is what it is, I think.
 



MiriMiriAru said:


> For some people, it is true that their bodies need not conform, or conform as much, to society's views of gender, however I would question any line of thinking that suggests that bodies need not conform to one's own sense of gender identity. I _know_ what discomforts me about my body, it's not society telling me that I should be one way or another. Even if I were to be stranded alone of a desert island with no chance of rescue for the rest of my life, I would still want the same physical characteristics that I do now.


Yes, I think that's it. 

I had an INFP friend who kept saying that it was too bad society was not more accepting, because then we wouldn't feel this crazy need to change our bodies... but that just told me she really didn't get it. Yes, the social dysphoria is a big part of things, true -- being around people and in the wrong body and thus being responded to in the wrong role contribtutes to the moment-by-moment pain and the long-term misery; but there is also just a very visceral sense of one's body betraying oneself, that one is a prisoner in a shape that feels all wrong, that one is as divorced from one's own tangible form as much as one feels divorced from the rest of society.

I don't know how that mechanism works -- what the biological components are (hormonal imbalances interacting with the brain structure, etc.) -- but it seems to be something that one would experience whether one lives in a big urban center or off in the woods alone. It's just that the more people there are around, the more the painful experience is exacerbated and hard to escape; but one's body is always with them, contributing to the distress.


----------



## Jennywocky

I don't remember if I ever said this earlier in the thread, but since this is advice for transpeople making some level of physical transformation:

*#1 rule: Don't, DON'T, don't, DO NOT, do not, do not do not, DO NOT EVER get involved romantically with people before you've resolved your gender issues*... not unless they happen to be panssexual or bisexual, and even then you should be extremely wary of your motivations and what you might be hiding from yourself. DON'T DO IT!!! It's just not worth it to create this life involving them, you, and maybe kids... and then have it all fall apart because you can't make it work, and then all of you have to suffer the loss and clean up the pieces. It sucks; total suckage; royal "stick your hand in a pool of molten iron, followed by the other one, followed by sticking a red-hot poker in your eye" suckage.

- Getting married won't fix you.
- Having kids won't fix you.
- Trying to live a "normal" life won't fix you.
- Making a commitment won't fix you.
- Turning to Jesus or Krishna or Babu the elephant God or the Pizza-Pizza guy won't fix you.
- Doing a 12-step program or ten hours of yoga a week won't fix you.

Either you get a spouse who gives you flexibility to be whoever you might need to be in the marriage, and/or can accept any changes you make; OR you figure your crap out first before making a commitment to anyone. 

Rule #2. Read the #1 rule again. Print it out and hang it on the wall. Have it airbrushed into the side of your car. Have it tattooed on the back of your eyelids so you see it every time you close your eyes to sleep at night. Have friends who will constantly badger you as to what the hell you are doing when you are tempted to ignore it. Have it skywritten above your house. Have your workplace stamp it on your paycheck every two weeks. Keep it in mind!


We discussed our relationship last night, my "ex" brought the topic up... and finally decided that the divorce is what we both need to do. I was waiting for a good two years for my ex to reach this point, and now it sounds like we have both synced up. But it's still heartbreaking, after twenty years; we both have cried our own share of tears in the last 24 hours over this; neither of us know what comes next; neither of us really wants to let go, it's just that the relationship can't satisfy our needs based on the way it currently is, so we HAVE to let go... but it's breaking our hearts to officially call it quits after so much effort and commitment to each other for two decades, as well as all the hell we went through together during the marriage where neither one of us could be happy.

Avoid yourself some heartache and future anxiety when starting over, and keep the kids from having to deal with this kind of thing. Get your crap figured out first before getting stupid silly ideas about "finding love" and maybe it'll make everything work out in the end. My soon-to-be-legal ex and I will be "best friends" until we die, but that almost just makes the heartache worse.

Just say "no." Please. Trust me on this.
... okay, i guess that's all.


----------



## MiriMiriAru

@Jennywocky, it does suck. Just as badly as you said, even when it's only half as long... For so many reasons, my marriage is among both my greatest regrets and sources of guilt... Nothing is worth the mutual pain caused...

*hugs*


----------



## knittigan

@Jennywocky, thank you for sharing that. I've often wondered what I would do in a position if my partner expressed a desire to express a different gender and although I feel like I would probably be okay with it as someone who is both bisexual and a bit pansexual as well in certain regards (I've always been very attracted to trans men), I feel like it would be an utterly heartbreaking situation to be in for many people. Thank you again for sharing something so personal.


----------



## Elyasis

I often wonder if it would be easier to adjust the mind to be comfortable with the body rather than the other way around. It has appeal to me even though I resist the idea of needing to change my self to fit my form. Mostly I like how much easier it would be than actually transforming the body into that of the other gender. This is all purely theoretical guesses about what is possible with medical science. I've noticed a certain amount of extremely emotional responses to this whenever I've brought it up with others. It becomes a little too much like a lynching for my comfort.

Even if it would change nothing else about them they still hold onto what is surely a brain defect with some kind of curious pride. There is nothing to take pride in or be ashamed of in my opinion. It's a neutral concept. You can keep the brain defect and pump yourself full of hormones that you would not naturally produce and possibly at some point have an operation that will at the very least give you permanent scars. But considering making a change to your brain to correct an imbalance is like an anathema. I guess that's just me looking at it from a risk/benefit analysis point of view.

I feel sometimes as if neither gender really gets me. Sure one will get some of me and the other will get some other parts but what is left is so foreign to people as a whole that they constantly assume it must not be "their" gender. And now I get the same response from transgender folks. I must be cisgender or I would never think like I do. Yes, I'm totally okay with my body as a vessel for my mind. But I neither idolize it or detest it. It just is. It has no more connection to me than my cat does. However as much as I think it's only flesh I realize that also includes my brain. And my thoughts are manifestations of my past stored within memory and replayed via neurons firing. If it's all so bloody physical anyway and all we are is what we are made out of then one should go with an option that's less likely to injure/kill your vessel so your mind can keep functioning.

I guess I'm fed up with the superficial world I live in.

(This wasn't intended to be an attack on anyone so put down your pitchforks and torches. This was only my own personal standpoint.)


----------



## Indigo Aria

Elyasis said:


> I often wonder if it would be easier to adjust the mind to be comfortable with the body rather than the other way around. It has appeal to me even though I resist the idea of needing to change my self to fit my form. Mostly I like how much easier it would be than actually transforming the body into that of the other gender. This is all purely theoretical guesses about what is possible with medical science. I've noticed a certain amount of extremely emotional responses to this whenever I've brought it up with others. It becomes a little too much like a lynching for my comfort.
> 
> Even if it would change nothing else about them they still hold onto what is surely a brain defect with some kind of curious pride. There is nothing to take pride in or be ashamed of in my opinion. It's a neutral concept. You can keep the brain defect and pump yourself full of hormones that you would not naturally produce and possibly at some point have an operation that will at the very least give you permanent scars. But considering making a change to your brain to correct an imbalance is like an anathema. I guess that's just me looking at it from a risk/benefit analysis point of view.
> 
> I feel sometimes as if neither gender really gets me. Sure one will get some of me and the other will get some other parts but what is left is so foreign to people as a whole that they constantly assume it must not be "their" gender. And now I get the same response from transgender folks. I must be cisgender or I would never think like I do. Yes, I'm totally okay with my body as a vessel for my mind. But I neither idolize it or detest it. It just is. It has no more connection to me than my cat does. However as much as I think it's only flesh I realize that also includes my brain. And my thoughts are manifestations of my past stored within memory and replayed via neurons firing. If it's all so bloody physical anyway and all we are is what we are made out of then one should go with an option that's less likely to injure/kill your vessel so your mind can keep functioning.
> 
> I guess I'm fed up with the superficial world I live in.
> 
> (This wasn't intended to be an attack on anyone so put down your pitchforks and torches. This was only my own personal standpoint.)


Yeah, but...there's no way to change the brain. It's that simple.

Not to mention I wouldn't anyways, because my brain defines me more than my body, and once I change that, I'm not me anymore.

And wanting to feel at home in my own body doesn't make me superficial. I don't have time to write more right now.


----------



## MiriMiriAru

Elyasis said:


> I often wonder if it would be easier to adjust the mind to be comfortable with the body rather than the other way around. It has appeal to me even though I resist the idea of needing to change my self to fit my form. Mostly I like how much easier it would be than actually transforming the body into that of the other gender. This is all purely theoretical guesses about what is possible with medical science. I've noticed a certain amount of extremely emotional responses to this whenever I've brought it up with others. It becomes a little too much like a lynching for my comfort.
> 
> Even if it would change nothing else about them they still hold onto what is surely a brain defect with some kind of curious pride. There is nothing to take pride in or be ashamed of in my opinion. It's a neutral concept. You can keep the brain defect and pump yourself full of hormones that you would not naturally produce and possibly at some point have an operation that will at the very least give you permanent scars. But considering making a change to your brain to correct an imbalance is like an anathema. I guess that's just me looking at it from a risk/benefit analysis point of view.
> 
> I feel sometimes as if neither gender really gets me. Sure one will get some of me and the other will get some other parts but what is left is so foreign to people as a whole that they constantly assume it must not be "their" gender. And now I get the same response from transgender folks. I must be cisgender or I would never think like I do. Yes, I'm totally okay with my body as a vessel for my mind. But I neither idolize it or detest it. It just is. It has no more connection to me than my cat does. However as much as I think it's only flesh I realize that also includes my brain. And my thoughts are manifestations of my past stored within memory and replayed via neurons firing. If it's all so bloody physical anyway and all we are is what we are made out of then one should go with an option that's less likely to injure/kill your vessel so your mind can keep functioning.
> 
> I guess I'm fed up with the superficial world I live in.
> 
> (This wasn't intended to be an attack on anyone so put down your pitchforks and torches. This was only my own personal standpoint.)


I think you might be eliciting those kind of reactions by calling it a defect. The most likely of the theories floating around is (as I'm sure you're probably aware) to do with atypical cross-sex hormone levels acting upon the brain during fetal development in utero. The result of which is physical differentiation in the brain along the lines of the other sex. Now, if one's brain is differentiated female, but otherwise normal, in a male-bodied person, I'm not sure if it can really be considered a defect, rather than simply an example of natural variation. I defect is something that is defective, it doesn't function. I don't know about you, but I function fine, just not at an optimum level since my brain is (or rather, was) running on the wrong juice. Biology is not a black and white thing, and concepts like male and female really only simplify what is actually a much more complex reality involving numerous possible variations. Many "defects" are labeled as such not because they result in human specimens that are non-viable or non-functioning in some fashion, but simply because society doesn't feel comfortable with the natural biological complexity they represent, or the way that complexity screws with their simple 1+1 view of reality.

The other thing is, I really think you are drastically underestimating the danger and difficulty of attempting to "fix" the brain. Given the kind of differentiation we're talking about, small differences in the relative size of parts of the mid brain, I'm not sure that _anything_ can be done. How would you make those parts bigger or smaller? Testosterone or estrogen isn't going to do anything, years of endogenous hormone production proves that false. Surgery? I think I'll risk genital reconstruction over someone cutting away parts of my skull to go digging around the innner parts of my brain to do... what exactly? Surgery is not going change the structure in any meaningful way. And then, if it could, we would have no idea what the result would be. The brain is understood in only the barest and most rudimentary way. No one is 100% certain what those differentiated parts actually do, only that there is a correlation between the differences and gender.

In the end though, people are getting shitty because you're saying that rather than fix their body, they should fix themselves. I'm not proud to be trans, it's just something that I am. But I _am_ proud to be woman, and I can't even imagine being anything other than a woman (or rather doing so and being happy with it), or even wanting to be anything other than one. The alternative horrifies me. Changing my brain to change my gender identity would effectively erase me, I'd be someone else. The me that I am now would be dead. What would be the fucking point of that?

I get your concerns, I do. Check a few pages back, and you'll see that I shared many of them. I've deeply considered them, and really, for me, if I want to remain myself (and let's face it, the alternative to that is death, in one form or another), those fears don't matter because those things are things I have to do to achieve gender congruity.

I hope I've managed to keep my emotions sufficiently in check, but also been able to clarify why you're attracting hostility with your standpoint, and why certain key points that underpin it are not founded on reality (and I apologise if this last bit sounded insulting, it was not my intent).


----------



## Elyasis

Yeah, I was speaking more from a future "what if" scenario and not a current science scenario. I also don't understand why some people put so much of their identity into their gender. Really, I've been trying to understand this concept my whole life. What about being this or that gender has any bearing on their actual selves. The selves apart from the feeble constraints of biological sex and gender alike. It's not like I think if I were male I'd suddenly be a different person.

Trust me, I only wish to understand these things from another's perspective. I only have my own floating around up there and it's not able to make the best guesses.

Edit: Also, I word things somewhat more favorably off the internet. Something about written communication makes me sound kind of like an unfeeling jerk, it's really not my intention. I still see the body and mind as fundamentally connected so that if you make any kind of change to the body it also affects the mind. I was only thinking of which would be more effective. In a perfect world, I honestly would love it if people could just switch their body to something that fit their mind. I'd love a world like that. Particularly if no one was fussed that someone would do that. That's be awesome. I know it's not reality but often times reality is wrong. Reality is messy and painful.

So yeah, I'm not trying to advocate anything only thinking about what might be easiest and what might be best. (Often times contradictory things!)


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## MiriMiriAru

@Elyasis, I have a similar issue with writing. I can be pretty horrible if I don't moderate myself.

I disagree. Gender is a fundamental part of the self, for most people. Considering that almost all human interacts are influenced by gender to a lesser or greater extent, it heavily influences how you see yourself, and are in turn seen, in relation to other people. If I had my brain changed somehow, and had a male gender identity, I would be a considerably different person. For one, I'd feel at home in my body, so I'd be vastly more confident. Also, I would not feel the effects of testosterone as some kind of crazy-drug that makes me an impenetrable fortress of unfeeling, and gives me a wildly overdriven sex drive that fills me with a shame and self-loathing that I can't fully express because I can't fully feel it. Indeed, as a male, I would relish those feelings, if I even consciously noticed them, as they would be part of being male. I hope I'm making my point... I can't write any more about that, getting into that headspace to imagine that is incredibly distressing...

As for effectiveness, I'll leave you with this. The medical profession has tried numerous methods over the years to make trans people's gender identity "correct" itself: psychotherapy, body sex matching hormone supplements, brain surgery, electroshock therapy... but the only method shown clinically to achieve the desired result of the patient being comfortable and happy with themselves is excepting their gender identity and transitioning (whether medically or not is up to the person and their needs). This sort of bears out what you said about changes to body effecting the mind. As my body changes, there are mental effects: I am happier now than I've ever been in my entire life. And I can only see that increasing. So my mind of being effected by bodily changes: it's gaining peace, finally...


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## Elyasis

I guess we are both just coming at this from wildly different points of view. I certainly wouldn't suggest it if it were likely to make the person worse off than they were before. That would be very unconscionable for me. It's good to see that it does have a positive effect to change the body, I actually figured as much, but I sometimes think the risk is still too high on the operation end.


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## Jennywocky

Elyasis said:


> I often wonder if it would be easier to adjust the mind to be comfortable with the body rather than the other way around.


Well, since the 1930's (and probably earlier) that has been the standard approach ... that gender dysphoria is a mental issue (which is how it's still listed in the DSM) and try to recondition the mind. There was a period where people were considered blank slates and so "sex changes" became an approach that was tried for patients who seemed resistant to mental recalibration, but the way it was handled led to some problems... along with the fact that society was resistant to those who had had such physical transformation. 

(Typically, aside from a few celebrities like Christine Jorgensen, even well-paid professionals would lose their jobs, their families, their friends, and find themselves at the bottom of the job market if able to make any living whatsoever. Consider the case of Lynn Conway, who was fired from IBM in 1968 even after working on the ACS project and making paradigm contributions that are still in use today in high-perfomance microprocessors. Nowadays IBM is at the forefront of providing rights, medical insurance, etc., to their trans employees.)



> It has appeal to me even though I resist the idea of needing to change my self to fit my form. Mostly I like how much easier it would be than actually transforming the body into that of the other gender. This is all purely theoretical guesses about what is possible with medical science. I've noticed a certain amount of extremely emotional responses to this whenever I've brought it up with others. It becomes a little too much like a lynching for my comfort.


That's true, but sad. I think it just has to do with the fact that transpeople typically get challenged by everyone in the world -- family, friends, church, etc. -- and often suffer a lot of emotional trauma from the rejections/judgments, and those who are investing in a physical transformation have already paid a terrible cost. So to have people within the transcommunity suggest that maybe a physical transformation is unnecessary is like getting backstabbed, emotionally, and being undermined all over again.

But I don't think that response is fair to you. You have every right to consider for yourself what you personally need to be happy. Everyone gets to make their own decision. it would be nice if everyone could also entertain all possibilities, but for some, well, they might have already done so, and it's painful for them to continue to hear people question their choices.



> Even if it would change nothing else about them they still hold onto what is surely a brain defect with some kind of curious pride. There is nothing to take pride in or be ashamed of in my opinion. It's a neutral concept. You can keep the brain defect and pump yourself full of hormones that you would not naturally produce and possibly at some point have an operation that will at the very least give you permanent scars. But considering making a change to your brain to correct an imbalance is like an anathema. I guess that's just me looking at it from a risk/benefit analysis point of view.


Well, I think it's a case of self-identity -- if you identify as one thing, why would you want to be something else? It feels like suicide, literally. I mean, if you become someone else, the self you were is dead. Why not just have the religious freakzoids brainwash you to be gender conforming? Why not just try to change your MBTI from INFP (for example) to ESTJ, for "your own betterment"? 

On some levels, change is necessary and profitable during one's lifetime, to become a better person. But killing part of yourself to become someone totally different? Where you identify as one gender and kill part of yourself to try to be happy as another? It's a lobotomy, pure and simple. 

One questions that gets asked by religious folks is, "If you want to please God, then why aren't you praying that God will fix your mind and make you right with your body? You mustn't really want to please God." Which is a crappy kind of comment to make to someone, even if it seems rational. No one else would be required to pray to change something so fundamental about themselves.

That probably explains the kind of emotional response you get.



> I feel sometimes as if neither gender really gets me. Sure one will get some of me and the other will get some other parts but what is left is so foreign to people as a whole that they constantly assume it must not be "their" gender. And now I get the same response from transgender folks. I must be cisgender or I would never think like I do. Yes, I'm totally okay with my body as a vessel for my mind. But I neither idolize it or detest it. It just is. It has no more connection to me than my cat does. However as much as I think it's only flesh I realize that also includes my brain. And my thoughts are manifestations of my past stored within memory and replayed via neurons firing. If it's all so bloody physical anyway and all we are is what we are made out of then one should go with an option that's less likely to injure/kill your vessel so your mind can keep functioning.


I think I can "get it," i can trace your logic just fine, I just don't identify with it. But I'm sorry for that; I can imagine it's a lonely place to be, as much as my life has been lonely because I've had few people who really understand what I've been through. 

I also do agree that current surgical tech is flawed. Transpeople are still sterile; surgical outcomes are really good in a lot of ways, but still cannot replicate a normal healthy functional system in its entirety, nor fix sexual dimorphic differentiation that has occurred at puberty. There continues to be progress -- there's a lot of promising advances, such as using stem cells to create a uterus and/or vagina, and using baccal cells to create self-lubricating tissue for vaginas -- for the transwoman -- but it's still not optimal functioning, and transguys have it worse since a naturally inflating penis cannot yet be created.

I don't have time to read the clarifications between you and Miri right now, so if you've revised/clarified something that I've garbled here, please forgive me. I did want to respond in some way, though.


----------



## MiriMiriAru

Elyasis said:


> I guess we are both just coming at this from wildly different points of view. I certainly wouldn't suggest it if it were likely to make the person worse off than they were before. That would be very unconscionable for me. It's good to see that it does have a positive effect to change the body, I actually figured as much, but I sometimes think the risk is still too high on the operation end.


The risk is somewhat high, as it is with any major surgery, but I think there is an inflated sense of risk going about, due to it being regarded as a kind of bizarre procedure. But I see it this way: my body is becoming increasingly congruent. I can kind of guess where I'm going, and using other people I know as examples, I can see a place down the line, in next couple of years where I'll look pretty much like how I feel... accept there'll still be one horrible, glaring incongruity. And if that weren't bad enough, while that incongruity remains, the state will still regard me as legally male... For me, I think the risk is worth it. Sure, as Jenny mentioned, the outcomes are not perfect, but they are pretty good, and are continuously improving... 

I should also point out that within the community there are a substantial number of people who are non-op (either by choice or through inability to afford surgery). In the case of those who choose, generally, their genitalia is not a major part of their dysphoria, and accordingly they opt out of what is for them an unnecessary risky surgery. My point is that, there a number of routes to feeling comfortable with one's self, not all trans people are the same or follow the same path in transition. It's always about what achieves the result that is most right for them.


----------



## Elyasis

I'm not unaware of those facts. I know someone in real life who is a transwoman (We are involved so I don't want to spill anything they would find a breach of trust). And my reasoning for being concerned about risk is not connected to any sense of it being a "bizarre" procedure. I connect it with other cosmetic surgery as it is meant to align the body to how you wish to be perceived. And how you see yourself. Unfortunately even though it's most similar to that form of surgery that can make it seem unnecessary which for some people it might very well be necessary. It does kind of remind me of cosmetic surgery junkies in that they often have body dysphoria as well. Maybe without the continued sense of not being "perfect" for transgender that do opt for surgery and come out of it with a better approximation of their gender. If it were me I would definitely wait for a better, safer option procedure wise. I would want to more closely close the gap. Or like I mentioned in my first post not bother with the physical body at all. It kind of difficult for me to understand this gender being intrinsic to self thing. I do my best but it's kind of alien to my thought processes.


----------



## Playful Proxy

For transgenders, 

How do you experience gender exactly? While I'm aware of the semantic differences between sex and gender, I've personally never really attributed an internal gender to myself, merely assumed gender = sex and stood at that. Maybe I am merely poking at semantics to begin with, but if you never attribute your mind to a gender and merely examine specific thoughts to exist inside of one of the two binary genders (which are built on stereotypes to begin with), how is that processed? By following that train of thought, would you just examine the frequency of thoughts which fall into a specific gender binary and categorize your gender based on the thoughts which exist inside of a binary 51% of the time?


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## Jennywocky

Signify said:


> For transgenders,
> 
> How do you experience gender exactly? While I'm aware of the semantic differences between sex and gender, I've personally never really attributed an internal gender to myself, merely assumed gender = sex and stood at that. Maybe I am merely poking at semantics to begin with, but if you never attribute your mind to a gender and merely examine specific thoughts to exist inside of one of the two binary genders (which are built on stereotypes to begin with), how is that processed? By following that train of thought, would you just examine the frequency of thoughts which fall into a specific gender binary and categorize your gender based on the thoughts which exist inside of a binary 51% of the time?



Not sure how to answer the question.

The process is more intuitive than that for me.

I think there's too much variance within genders and too much overlapping behavior to determine gender perception through a mere dual-bucket process, and I think during the years I felt compelled to approach it that way because that was what society was demanding, I never really got anywhere with it.


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## Flatlander

Signify said:


> For transgenders,
> 
> How do you experience gender exactly? While I'm aware of the semantic differences between sex and gender, I've personally never really attributed an internal gender to myself, merely assumed gender = sex and stood at that. Maybe I am merely poking at semantics to begin with, but if you never attribute your mind to a gender and merely examine specific thoughts to exist inside of one of the two binary genders (which are built on stereotypes to begin with), how is that processed? By following that train of thought, would you just examine the frequency of thoughts which fall into a specific gender binary and categorize your gender based on the thoughts which exist inside of a binary 51% of the time?


I experience what I consider to be the evidence that I am transsexual mostly as a body-based problem. I've had no problem "being male" as a social identity for years now, in fact I really never did after I pieced together that I was male, the only exception being with a family that refused to introduce me as anything but their daughter and the consequences of that being me basically hiding in a corner and not talking to people.

So otherwise, it is basically just that I think I should have a dick and a fairly different kind of body. Being in the female substance feels wrong. I ignore it a lot of the time because I know it can't be helped but when it comes back into attention I want to disinherit my skin. Testosterone therapy has been helpful so far because at least I am starting to feel right. It also has effects I was looking forward to on the side of my mental state - I feel much more mentally active, and like I have more of a drive; I get frustrated, I get more penetrating, I go forward in time rather than nowhere.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Jennywocky said:


> Not sure how to answer the question.
> 
> The process is more intuitive than that for me.
> 
> I think there's too much variance within genders and too much overlapping behavior to determine gender perception through a mere dual-bucket process, and I think during the years I felt compelled to approach it that way because that was what society was demanding, I never really got anywhere with it.


Since you felt like you needed to approach it that way, I'm interpreting that there was a time you had doubts. At what point did it become more intuitive and less of a confused-mess? I'll be honest and admit that I still haven't wrapped my head around the concept of 'gender' per se, but I know that something's off and to some extent, may have been for a long time.


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## Jennywocky

Signify said:


> Since you felt like you needed to approach it that way, I'm interpreting that there was a time you had doubts. At what point did it become more intuitive and less of a confused-mess? I'll be honest and admit that I still haven't wrapped my head around the concept of 'gender' per se, but I know that something's off and to some extent, may have been for a long time.



Well, I'm a type that tends by nature to be a poor judge of internal desires and preferences, also dismissing emotions as "noise". That and the preference that "nothing is true until shown to be true" leads to a lot of self-doubt.

I also grew up in an enviroment that was conservative (thus gender roles were conservative). And in a religious environment (so boys were boys and girls were girls, and if you weren't, you were messed up or "sinning.") And with no real examples of people with other interpretations. It was important to me to understand what "God" thought about things, and it was important to understand why I might be different from others culturally.

I was introverted and compliant on the surface, so any exploration only happened internally, without feedback and ideas from others. I'm also naturally adaptable -- changing my behavior to accommodate the world, rather than changing the world to accommodate me -- and typically just tried to avoid upsetting the apple cart as much as possible.

My family life was pretty shaky due to my parents' issues, so I didn't have them for advice... and also, I felt the need to make sure that my feelings weren't occuring BECAUSE of my parents' mistakes and shortcomings. I had a lot to work through, psychologically, to make sure this wasn't something that "happened" to me and thus could be fixed in a different way.

By the time I reached a stage where I might have come to a conclusion, I also had a marriage and I had children. I don't break promises once made, and I didn't also want my children to have to deal with any of this -- I wanted their lives to be as stable and normal as possible -- so that gave me additional incentive to not come to conclusions.

So just about everything in life conspired against me, to keep me "as-is" and dismiss how I had perceived myself from a young age. I spent a lot of time exploring, thinking, trying to adjust, and trying to make things work as they were.

I think the tipping points involved changes to all of those various "forces" that were holding me in stasis.

I did come to realize that I would never get an "objective" answer, the reality was simply this was how I perceived myself even when I was open to other perceptions. And the disparity between self-perception and external reality was beyond my ability to adapt to, long-term. 

And I wasn't able to effectively keep my world together enough for my kids to be stable and present for them, long-term... it wasn't working. And my spouse wasn't open to any kind of flexibility, and my inability to be the person they wanted just locked them in a "no win" situation as much as I was. (Lots of misery over the years for both of us. It was just pretty awful.)

And my views of God and what was "moral/immoral" changed.

And I stopped caring as much what others thought of me, since I realized this decision was much bigger than that.

And there was a lot more scientific study done over those years in terms of brain and development, as well as long-term outcome for people in my situation.

So... long story short (1) my views changed, (2) I realized my solutions were not working and wouldn't work, and (3) I stopped feeling shame over who I was, and (4) I realized I was completely over-thinking things to the point of ridiculousness and the reality was clearer than I had made it.

At no point did my view of myself change, just my understanding of what that view meant.

The thing is, I don't think some of that work could have been skipped. I needed it to be in a healthy place to finally make the decisions I did.


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## Playful Proxy

I think where I'm at, that there is an unsettled questioning going on. It was not until recently that I'm beginning to notice a side-effects emotionally to something that has from the looks of it, been around a while. I've weighed the pro's and con's, and much like you, conservative family, issues to make them not well worthwhile as a support system to rely on, and I'm sitting around with a more concrete idea in my head of what action would be required. I suspect that thinking portion was just a cop-out on my mind's part to weight pro's and con's so it could avoid trying to draw a conclusion regardless of consequences. It'd rather see consequences and make a decision. 

And now...I've concluded taking action would be insane given all con's involved and I've talked with quite a few who are finished with/working on/just starting transition to pull ideas. At the end of the day, I have no idea how heavily this will affect me long-term and while I can get away occasionally with no issues and completely ignoring it, my worry is that if I get pushed into a corner where I have no choice in the future, I fear I"ll forever regret not acting sooner. But I don't want to have to act unless absolutely necessary since I'd also forever regret it if I find out I could have lived a happy, normal life without subjecting myself to the hells of transition.


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## Jennywocky

Wondering if these posts should be in the "advice" thread.... anyway I will keep it short...



Signify said:


> I think where I'm at, that there is an unsettled questioning going on. It was not until recently that I'm beginning to notice a side-effects emotionally to something that has from the looks of it, been around a while. I've weighed the pro's and con's, and much like you, conservative family, issues to make them not well worthwhile as a support system to rely on, and I'm sitting around with a more concrete idea in my head of what action would be required. I suspect that thinking portion was just a cop-out on my mind's part to weight pro's and con's so it could avoid trying to draw a conclusion regardless of consequences. It'd rather see consequences and make a decision.


Yes, I so much relate to that. I had a boss who once called me "The poster child for ambivalence" as a good-natured joke, and especially at that time in my life, considering all that was at stake, it was extremely important to not make a mistake. (Nowadays in general I tend to make decisions more and adjust them as I go, so I have more flexibility.)

I was very much into "analysis paralysis," but I did actually think I could reach a conclusive answer. No, I just needed to make some decisions. 



> And now...I've concluded taking action would be insane given all con's involved and I've talked with quite a few who are finished with/working on/just starting transition to pull ideas. At the end of the day, I have no idea how heavily this will affect me long-term and while I can get away occasionally with no issues and completely ignoring it, my worry is that if I get pushed into a corner where I have no choice in the future, I fear I"ll forever regret not acting sooner. But I don't want to have to act unless absolutely necessary since I'd also forever regret it if I find out I could have lived a happy, normal life without subjecting myself to the hells of transition.


I so much empathize with you here, and you always have free pass to ask me questions or bounce ideas off me, if you want. Much of this is an individual journey, so what worked for one person can also work for others, but not necessarily. You need to make sure that whatever you do is what you need to have that happy, normal life and meanwhile avoid unnecessary hell.

There are also actually a number of things you can do (socially, medically), as part of exploration, that are reversible / don't impact your life or work overall, so those things are always options too. It's kind of up to you. I think my one bit of advice is that you can always make changes if you realize you aren't happy where you are, in either direction, as long as you're in that "reversible" zone... you can change things outside of that zone too, but there will just be repercussions to deal with.


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## Jennywocky

I thought this worth sharing here.



> *Please Don't Thank Me for Loving My Wife*
> 
> .,.Many, many people thank me for being with my wife, for accepting her the way she is, and for being “brave” enough to accompany her through the not-so-pleasant aspects of being trans in America. I get two or three emails a week from trans* people thanking me for loving my wife, telling me that they hope they can someday find partners as “wonderful” and "accepting" as I am....
> 
> ...This doesn’t just happen online, but in the real world, too. We were once leaving a local transgender support group when a shy, nervous-looking woman who was there quietly asked for my phone number. The next day, she called me in tears telling me about her own wife, who left her and received full custody of their three children after she came out of the closet. She told me she “couldn’t thank me enough” for being with my wife, because seeing our relationship assured her that love and happiness can happen even to “people like us.” She turned out to be the first of now five people from the support group who have stopped to personally thank me for my relationship. It's a sign that something is seriously wrong when there are people who feel so hopeless, and so unloved, that they feel that they owe me gratitude just for loving someone "like them."
> 
> I can understand why it is that many transwomen feel a need to personally thank me. When society constantly tells you that you're not worthy of having the kind of healthy, loving relationships that cisgender people take for granted-- when the media tells you that your body and identity are the subject of fetishism at best and disgust at worst-- I understand how it could be easy to forget that you, too, are a human being, and that you, too, deserve to be loved exactly as you are. Transphobia is so rampant in every aspect of our culture that it seems that many trans people have internalized self-hatred to the point that they have given up on all hope of love.
> 
> I’m obviously failing, somehow, to make it clear that my marriage is no charity project. My wife is not a mangy stray puppy I decided to feed, or a soap-opera character who needed a manic pixie dream girl to save her from her own tragedy. She is the love of my life. So maybe it’s time for me to make a few things clear. If anyone is owed gratitude for being in this relationship, it’s my wife....




You can read the rest of the article here:
Autostraddle — Please Don’t Thank Me for Loving My Wife


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## Entropic

Signify said:


> For transgenders,
> 
> How do you experience gender exactly? While I'm aware of the semantic differences between sex and gender, I've personally never really attributed an internal gender to myself, merely assumed gender = sex and stood at that. Maybe I am merely poking at semantics to begin with, but if you never attribute your mind to a gender and merely examine specific thoughts to exist inside of one of the two binary genders (which are built on stereotypes to begin with), how is that processed? By following that train of thought, would you just examine the frequency of thoughts which fall into a specific gender binary and categorize your gender based on the thoughts which exist inside of a binary 51% of the time?


Fuck, where to I even begin with this. For me gender is an identity, something you feel within yourself. Yes, there's the part between the legs, but the problem is what happens what thing between your legs doesn't match what you feel inside anymore, that whenever you think of yourself, envision yourself and so on, it just gets all fucked in your head because it doesn't match. 

There was a part where I went yes, socially I must be a girl because that's what people have seen me as since I was born, but I've had thoughts and ideas since I was pre-teen where I was clearly not happy with the gender roles I was ascribed to. I didn't hate all of it, but the more obviously girly it became, the more I did internally resist. I very early formulated the idea that pink princess dresses were the worst things ever. Why? Girls wore them. Pink, horrible color. Why? It's associated with girls, and the list just goes on. 

I've also experienced body dysphoria on and off since I've been a teenager, though to me it's damn complicated because of various body conditions outside of my control. Chronic illnesses, eczema, birth defects and the list goes on, has complicated my entire relationship to body. For most of the part, I don't experience body, but when I couldn't ignore body something was just off. I could never quite place it what it was. The way it worked, that didn't seem right. The way it looked, it didn't seem right. I wanted it to operate and be shaped in a way that was clearly contrary to its original biological functions, but thinking I had to live with this body for the rest of my life, I think I grew into quiet acceptance and tried to ignore. 

I've also have an easier time living out masculine gender roles and I think it became a bit of an escape for me. I immersed myself heavily into masculine culture and I was often torn because as much as I wanted to be treated an equal I also knew I was different and I noticed this because I was treated differently and it always bothered me. Similarly, when I was put in situations where others shoveled me into a female role I longed to be on the "masculine" end of things. It just made so much more sense to me. And as a child, I just liked playing with the guys doing guy-stuff, and I always had to do things the way they did it. I still remember how I kind of felt proud and happy bringing home two guy class mates home playing computer games. It just felt so much more awesome as an accomplishment than being with my girl friends ever achieved. It felt natural and I often longed and desired to be with guys, because their social contexts always made more sense. 

Then I know I'm transsexual as opposed to other forms of transgender because ultimately, I want to have a dick. It's not just a matter of not being happy with gender roles or being read a specific way. I long for a male body, the body I felt I should have been born with. 



Signify said:


> Since you felt like you needed to approach it that way, I'm interpreting that there was a time you had doubts. At what point did it become more intuitive and less of a confused-mess? I'll be honest and admit that I still haven't wrapped my head around the concept of 'gender' per se, but I know that something's off and to some extent, may have been for a long time.


I want to address this as well while I am at it. I think for you, it would be extremely useful to actually explore the entirety of the gender spectrum. Transsexuals such as Flatlander or myself have an easier time fitting into a gender binary because what we desire is opposite of what is ascribed so society has an easier time dealing with the that because gender is something more concrete, but aside TS folks, gender is really broad. You have intergender, agender, nongender, crossgender, bigender, genderqueer and the list goes on. And even within each of these there's another spectrum of people who interpret and identify themselves in their own unique ways. 

In many ways I don't fit the male stereotype either, especially not according to Western standards, and my look would most likely be deemed as "feminized". I plan to get ear piercings at some point (and when I was still thinking of myself as female I thought the idea was to be avoided at all costs since those are things women wear!) and I definitely need to update my wardrobe to just not be metal stuff, though I will not change that metal will be the basis of my clothing style eventually. I just have a strong idea of how I want to express myself in terms of aesthetics, something I didn't bother much about before. It felt wrong to do so, because I just saw it as something people would ascribe as feminine and it was the thing I wanted to avoid coming across as the most.

So my identifying as male does operate on denying that I see as stereotypically female, but that's why I am transsexual and not genderqeer or similar. 



Signify said:


> I think where I'm at, that there is an unsettled questioning going on. It was not until recently that I'm beginning to notice a side-effects emotionally to something that has from the looks of it, been around a while. I've weighed the pro's and con's, and much like you, conservative family, issues to make them not well worthwhile as a support system to rely on, and I'm sitting around with a more concrete idea in my head of what action would be required. I suspect that thinking portion was just a cop-out on my mind's part to weight pro's and con's so it could avoid trying to draw a conclusion regardless of consequences. It'd rather see consequences and make a decision.
> 
> And now...I've concluded taking action would be insane given all con's involved and I've talked with quite a few who are finished with/working on/just starting transition to pull ideas. At the end of the day, I have no idea how heavily this will affect me long-term and while I can get away occasionally with no issues and completely ignoring it, my worry is that if I get pushed into a corner where I have no choice in the future, I fear I"ll forever regret not acting sooner. But I don't want to have to act unless absolutely necessary since I'd also forever regret it if I find out I could have lived a happy, normal life without subjecting myself to the hells of transition.


The country you live in will have a profound affect on what you can get away with, what you can access and what help you'll receive and how you'll receive it. 

The real question you need to ask yourself is whether the cons are worth the happiness you might experience for going through with your feelings. I've been there and done that recently and I decided that yes, I know the cons darn well, but I don't care. It's way beyond the point where I care. It's a matter of whether I'll be happy doing this or living in pain for not living it out and always suffering as a result.

If it helps, you can PM me and I'll share my story what turned things around for me. Like you, I didn't really identify with gender as a concept and I think I also denied myself from doing so because it was too painful to deal with. It was easier to live somewhere in the middle where I didn't have to deal with those complex choices, yet the feeling has been there a long time, although usually quite vague and expressed more as a form of internal resistance whenever I was forced into a role or I had to choose because I equally knew what people expected me to choose and something just never felt quite right with that, ever. The tl;dr version is that it probably took me at least 10 years to understand what I felt, seeing that I'm 25 now and I've felt it since my early teenage years. The accepting part was actually far simpler in contrast.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Bah, I give in, I'll bite. Alright, while I know this likely will play out wonderfully as I'm about to bring two rivals into the same room, I've got to ask. Are there any transsexual Christians here who have either undergone transition or refuse transition? What's your experience/opinion on the matter from a Christian perspective along with how you drew that conclusion? I've seen arguments from both sides and the whole 'choice' thing is laughable in all regards. No one would consciously choose to transition unless they had absolutely no choice with even an inkling of an idea of what all they'd be put through and giving up in the process. 

I'll be honest and say that I'm having a bit of trouble with how I identify in that I've never really given identity a whole lot of thought and it's kinda been the ignored dark cloud over my head. The idea of possibly being TS scares the hell out of me, and the sacrifices of it do too, but my emotions at least are offering enough insight to tell me that I'm not making it up. While I want to explain it away in thinking that I've freaked my self out over nothing (again), everything just makes a lot more sense. But why would God create me in such a way that I'd be wired as an abomination to the world from the get-go? I know it's said that if you are part of the world, life is easy whereas Christianity will have the world turn against you, but this appears to be against both sides.


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## chimeric

Interesting thread. I've enjoyed reading it and soaking in the knowledge and personal stories. Just want to say I really respect the trans people here for being so patient, informative, and non-reactionary in their answers to questions from various cis folk. It's a really nice thing to see.


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## nevermore

Signify said:


> Bah, I give in, I'll bite. Alright, while I know this likely will play out wonderfully as I'm about to bring two rivals into the same room, I've got to ask. Are there any transsexual Christians here who have either undergone transition or refuse transition? What's your experience/opinion on the matter from a Christian perspective along with how you drew that conclusion? I've seen arguments from both sides and the whole 'choice' thing is laughable in all regards. No one would consciously choose to transition unless they had absolutely no choice with even an inkling of an idea of what all they'd be put through and giving up in the process.
> 
> I'll be honest and say that I'm having a bit of trouble with how I identify in that I've never really given identity a whole lot of thought and it's kinda been the ignored dark cloud over my head. The idea of possibly being TS scares the hell out of me, and the sacrifices of it do too, but my emotions at least are offering enough insight to tell me that I'm not making it up. While I want to explain it away in thinking that I've freaked my self out over nothing (again), everything just makes a lot more sense. But why would God create me in such a way that I'd be wired as an abomination to the world from the get-go? I know it's said that if you are part of the world, life is easy whereas Christianity will have the world turn against you, but this appears to be against both sides.


Well, the Bible says its okay to castrate yourself for the "sake of the Kingdom of Heaven". I hope that doesn't sound flippant or irreverent, because it's not supposed to. That was probably the closest people had to medical transgender procedures then.

An honest reading of the Bible will admit it condemns gay and lesbian relationships, but remember transgenderism is a separate issue and it is NOT mentioned as far as I know.

Which will bring us to real the reason you are concerned: Christians. Maybe your friends. And that's legitimate, to be honest. But the problem is with them, and with Christian culture, not the Bible. (At least not when it comes to that issue.)

As to "why would God make me in a way that makes people despise me", well, if you have honestly never asked yourself anything along those lines, you are a very, very lucky person. Or you just have a strong sense of self worth. Either way you have a lot to be thankful for. If you _have _already asked yourself this question, perhaps the same theological answers apply.

Also, remember there are many ways of coping with these feelings, and transition isn't the only option. Many people don't go that route. Sometimes just being recognized by others in a way that validates the way you perceive yourself can be enough. Or perhaps you feel you have a non binary identity. It can be hard going through life in a world where people expect you to like being recognized as the gender you were assigned, being treated, talked to, and perceived in a certain way, and just finding people who understand can do a lot for some people.

You might not have to give up as much as you imagine. If you do eventually want to, well, I'm not the best person to ask, but there are plenty of people who will be able to give you good advice.


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## JYFly

Signify said:


> Bah, I give in, I'll bite. Alright, while I know this likely will play out wonderfully as I'm about to bring two rivals into the same room, I've got to ask. Are there any transsexual Christians here who have either undergone transition or refuse transition? What's your experience/opinion on the matter from a Christian perspective along with how you drew that conclusion? I've seen arguments from both sides and the whole 'choice' thing is laughable in all regards. No one would consciously choose to transition unless they had absolutely no choice with even an inkling of an idea of what all they'd be put through and giving up in the process.
> 
> I'll be honest and say that I'm having a bit of trouble with how I identify in that I've never really given identity a whole lot of thought and it's kinda been the ignored dark cloud over my head. The idea of possibly being TS scares the hell out of me, and the sacrifices of it do too, but my emotions at least are offering enough insight to tell me that I'm not making it up. While I want to explain it away in thinking that I've freaked my self out over nothing (again), everything just makes a lot more sense. But why would God create me in such a way that I'd be wired as an abomination to the world from the get-go? I know it's said that if you are part of the world, life is easy whereas Christianity will have the world turn against you, but this appears to be against both sides.


People still have much to learn. Black people were despised by white Christians (and some white Christians still do despise black people). I'm not a Christian and I haven't had to deal with Christians saying things about me being trans, but the one thing I would do if I ever ended up in that situation is remind them of Matthew 7:1.

Also, I've heard of trans-friendly churches, but that might depend on the region you're in.

There's this: Transgender and Christian: Finding Identity | Sexuality/Gender | Religion Dispatches


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## adagio

Signify said:


> For transgenders,
> 
> How do you experience gender exactly? While I'm aware of the semantic differences between sex and gender, I've personally never really attributed an internal gender to myself, merely assumed gender = sex and stood at that. Maybe I am merely poking at semantics to begin with, but if you never attribute your mind to a gender and merely examine specific thoughts to exist inside of one of the two binary genders (which are built on stereotypes to begin with), how is that processed? By following that train of thought, would you just examine the frequency of thoughts which fall into a specific gender binary and categorize your gender based on the thoughts which exist inside of a binary 51% of the time?


I'm also trying to sort it out for myself. I was born male and am glad I'm a male but I've always been the girly type (not sporty, slender, sensitive, androgynous, INFP). But I also tried to be a guy so I ended up trying to look like a tomboy and, somewhere in my head, I think of myself as a tomboy who wished she were a real boy and woke up to find she has a dick. Around 14 or so, I also discovered I'm gay, which fitted some kind of stereotype (closeted sissy trying to man-up). My role models were always the Lara Croft/ Modesty Blaise types if you can imagine an INFP Lara. So, sexually I'm a male and gender is a big confused ball in my head. Many gay relationships seem to look for the traditional male/ female, active/ passive roles and while it's tough just finding the right guy, it's tougher when you don't know who the right guy is like and you have no clear picture of who you are.


----------



## Playful Proxy

adagio said:


> I'm also trying to sort it out for myself. I was born male and am glad I'm a male but I've always been the girly type (not sporty, slender, sensitive, androgynous, INFP). But I also tried to be a guy so I ended up trying to look like a tomboy and, somewhere in my head, I think of myself as a tomboy who wished she were a real boy and woke up to find she has a dick. Around 14 or so, I also discovered I'm gay, which fitted some kind of stereotype (closeted sissy trying to man-up). My role models were always the Lara Croft/ Modesty Blaise types if you can imagine an INFP Lara. So, sexually I'm a male and gender is a big confused ball in my head. Many gay relationships seem to look for the traditional male/ female, active/ passive roles and while it's tough just finding the right guy, it's tougher when you don't know who the right guy is like and you have no clear picture of who you are.


That's the part I'm having a bit more issue with. While gender identity is one of those concepts I still haven't completely got my head around and I realize there's a problem, I was more feminine when younger, but nothing over the top. I was just introverted, smart-mouth guy who sucked at sports but wasn't all that feminine, otherwise. I think this'd be easy to explain if it were otherwise, but I don't have a long list of traits to back myself up, just a lame emotion that I can't seem to figure out exactly what it is and where it's coming from. On top of that, I'm in a hetero relationship that I'm plenty happy in (well...haven't told her this part yet and probably won't at least until I figure more of it out).


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## adagio

Signify said:


> That's the part I'm having a bit more issue with. While gender identity is one of those concepts I still haven't completely got my head around and I realize there's a problem, I was more feminine when younger, but nothing over the top. I was just introverted, smart-mouth guy who sucked at sports but wasn't all that feminine, otherwise. I think this'd be easy to explain if it were otherwise, but I don't have a long list of traits to back myself up, just a lame emotion that I can't seem to figure out exactly what it is and where it's coming from. On top of that, I'm in a hetero relationship that I'm plenty happy in (well...haven't told her this part yet and probably won't at least until I figure more of it out).


Sometimes I just stop trying to put a label on myself and just say, fuckit, I'm just me, whatever I am. Some people look at me and think I'm a girl, (I've been called Darling and Love 3 times in the past 6 weeks by genuine mistake) some know immediately I'm a guy, so it's their perception and nothing I'm doing. I don't act feminine, it's just something (introversion? usually spacing out?) inside me and my small physique and long hair. Lots of INFP guys also have problems over their less-than-masculine traits and the straight ones anguish more because they want to be seen as manly to better attract women. Being a bit feminine doesn't mean you're gay. There are lots of feminine guys that are absolutely straight. 90% of sissy crossdressers are straight men. Gay means you're romantically attracted to your sex, and I say romantically attracted because many straight guys have purely physical sex with other guys and happily go home to their wives and kids. They don't identify as gay. They're called men-who-have-sex-with-men and this ranges from guys who are in institutions like prison to guys who simply like being on the down low. I don't know enough about bisexuals to say if they are bisexual.


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## lolthevoidlol

Signify said:


> That's the part I'm having a bit more issue with. While gender identity is one of those concepts I still haven't completely got my head around and I realize there's a problem, I was more feminine when younger, but nothing over the top. I was just introverted, smart-mouth guy who sucked at sports but wasn't all that feminine, otherwise. I think this'd be easy to explain if it were otherwise, but I don't have a long list of traits to back myself up, just a lame emotion that I can't seem to figure out exactly what it is and where it's coming from. On top of that, I'm in a hetero relationship that I'm plenty happy in (well...haven't told her this part yet and probably won't at least until I figure more of it out).


I had meant to reply to your initial post, but this one actually helps me explain myself better. The "what is gender" question has been the million dollar question for me as someone who identifies as "nongender". After a bit of examination you come to realize that "traits" are rather meaningless. 

[as a bit of a side note, the "trait rule" has led to bigotry in the same way that people try to define what a real man/woman is, they try to define what a "real trans" is. my friend was born female, identifies as male, got top surgery and takes T but will not get bottom surgery, and has a very effeminate personality and loves to do "girly" things like wear makeup and nailpolish and wigs and bellydance. He also likes to shoot guns and bows and hunt. so good luck with his trait tally. but he is a man, period]

So if it isn't traits, what is it? It really is just that feeling inside (something my Te struggled with for ages). There are people who have a feeling inside that they have identified as a gendered feeling. For me it's a bit different because what I have is a lack of that feeling. But I cannot deny that others have it and can have it very strongly. For me, nothing about gender "feels right". I have no desire to be seen in a gendered way, and attempts to be seen as a gender feels like dressing in drag no matter what gendered expression I go for. All pronouns feel wrong, and any application of gendered ideas to myself feels wrong. 

As for the body, it is clear that some people have very clear/distinct feelings about what their body should be. I, on the other hand, feel disconnected/no attachment to my body. I am indifferent to the state of my genitals, as long as I can orgasm I don't care what exactly is down there. But again, it's clear to me that some people do have strong feelings of what their body should be. But even for transexual people their relationship to their body or experience of dysphoria can vary greatly from the "classic" experience of very young children declaring their body is wrong to something far more ambiguous. Here's a link to an article about the latter experience, which may or may not have any relation to the "lame emotion" you speak of â€œThat was dysphoria?â€� 8 signs and symptoms of indirect gender dysphoria » Zinnia Jones


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## Jennywocky

During the time I was approaching this more as a "Does the Bible prohibit this?" thing, pretty much it all got knocked down to a potential handful of verses. And I think the New Testament verses that were translated as "effeminate" in context were referring to gay temple prostitution versus transgender. 

The only "hard" verse I can recall finding Deut 22:5, the infamous, "woman shall not wear what pertains to a man, and a man shall not wear a woman's garment," and then we have the whole argument back and forth about what Israel laws translate into modern law vs all the laws that were discarded. If God's "chosen people" had anything unique about them, well, they definitely preferred their distinctions in order to make them stand out from the other nations around them -- things were strongly categorized into black and white, the lines sharply drawn, and they did not permit bleedover. Even what types of fabrics could be placed together was regulated.

And then of course there's the idea that it was a patriarchal society, and for a man to abdicate his masculine role in society was virtually blasphemous. And other contexts, such as it possibly being a rule to prevent men from wearing women's garments in order to avoid being drafted into war (due to all the fighting at the time). The culture was very different.

(as a comparison, nowadays the whole concept of a fetish transvestite, which gets slapped alongside this "man in woman's clothes" thing, didn't really exist back then, did it? In fact, none of the gender categories existed as they exist today; everything was going off your genitals, i suppose.)

Anyway, a lot of one's response to that single verse also is impacted by how one personally views scripture: Was it all like some divine proclamation that applies in a universal fashion, or is it at least to some degree a set of rules drawn up by the community leaders and rubber-stamped by someone in God's name to stabilize that particular culture?

What became the broader question was, (1) Was there an intention for me to be a particular gender / type of being and (2) How would I determine what that was? People have different answers to that question, and some elements seem to be stronger than others. For many people, the genitals work as a perfectly fine standard of "divine intent," but then you start ranging into various forms of intersex and then it's clear that rule is not hard and fast, for example. 

There were also other questions that arose. "Regardless of how I view myself, now that I have established certain relationships in my life and my choices affect others, how does that impact what kinds of choices I should make now?" The notion of love and sacrifice and commitment come into play, so you are left wondering what kinds of decisions God might be able to honor vs repudiate.

And, all that aside, it's easy for Christianity to become a form of legalism. Legalism occurs because it can be easily clarified, visualized, and thus behavior controlled. But matters of the heart (and this nebulous "internal relationship with God" which is purported as the highest form of spirituality) are not easily clarified nor validated openly in ways that others can judge. I think Christians are stuck in a war between the two because it's easy for someone to mistake their "feelings" for "God's leaning" and it's easier just to have outward rules to follow, yet people aren't happy with that approach and it can just lead to people exploiting the system -- pretending to be good while having black selfish hearts. One has to somehow navigate through all that.


----------



## Entropic

lolthevoidlol said:


> I had meant to reply to your initial post, but this one actually helps me explain myself better. The "what is gender" question has been the million dollar question for me as someone who identifies as "nongender". After a bit of examination you come to realize that "traits" are rather meaningless.
> 
> [as a bit of a side note, the "trait rule" has led to bigotry in the same way that people try to define what a real man/woman is, they try to define what a "real trans" is. my friend was born female, identifies as male, got top surgery and takes T but will not get bottom surgery, and has a very effeminate personality and loves to do "girly" things like wear makeup and nailpolish and wigs and bellydance. He also likes to shoot guns and bows and hunt. so good luck with his trait tally. but he is a man, period]
> 
> So if it isn't traits, what is it? It really is just that feeling inside (something my Te struggled with for ages). There are people who have a feeling inside that they have identified as a gendered feeling. For me it's a bit different because what I have is a lack of that feeling. But I cannot deny that others have it and can have it very strongly. For me, nothing about gender "feels right". I have no desire to be seen in a gendered way, and attempts to be seen as a gender feels like dressing in drag no matter what gendered expression I go for. All pronouns feel wrong, and any application of gendered ideas to myself feels wrong.
> 
> As for the body, it is clear that some people have very clear/distinct feelings about what their body should be. I, on the other hand, feel disconnected/no attachment to my body. I am indifferent to the state of my genitals, as long as I can orgasm I don't care what exactly is down there. But again, it's clear to me that some people do have strong feelings of what their body should be. But even for transexual people their relationship to their body or experience of dysphoria can vary greatly from the "classic" experience of very young children declaring their body is wrong to something far more ambiguous. Here's a link to an article about the latter experience, which may or may not have any relation to the "lame emotion" you speak of â€œThat was dysphoria?â€� 8 signs and symptoms of indirect gender dysphoria » Zinnia Jones


Thanks for the link. It's a complicated issue. I had issues wrapping my head around gender for a long time too until I realized that I don't want to be seen as a woman, period, despite being born as one. I've just never felt comfortable with it, but my gender dysphoria has been very on/off, and even when I experienced it I didn't realize what it was, fully. I just felt unhappy with my body, the way it operated and looked, thought it looked wrong or operated wrong, but at some level I just silently accepted I must live with it like this because that's how I'm "supposed to be". It's just always been that issue where I internally flinched whenever someone used to clearly categorize me as a woman. It's easier now when I think of it as something that used to be, rather than is. 

And I care less about gender expressions than some transsexuals. I would consider myself a slightly effeminate guy in that I think of myself as experiencing a lot and strong emotions and I don't care about looking and being all macho. That's not me. I have my own brand of masculinity I adhere to that makes sense to me, both in terms of behavior and looks. 

My feelings just weren't that zomfg I'm this and nothing makes sense until recently, part because I too feel very disconnected from body. I'm actually curious if most TS people who declare what they are at a very young age are Si types or something else. I can however safely say that being on a forum dedicated to TS people that there's little to no correlation between F and T and the gender people identity with.


----------



## Jennywocky

ephemereality said:


> My feelings just weren't that zomfg I'm this and nothing makes sense until recently, part because I too feel very disconnected from body. I'm actually curious if most TS people who declare what they are at a very young age are Si types or something else. I can however safely say that being on a forum dedicated to TS people that there's little to no correlation between F and T and the gender people identity with.


On the topic of declaring at a young age:

Nowadays, where the rules seem to have been discarded, I see a variety of experiences relayed. There are those who claim to have been aware of being trans from the youngest of ages (2-3 years old), there are those who become aware a bit later (7-8), and then some that claim to not have been aware until their teens or adulthood.

I think one issue in the earliest years of this condition becoming culturally exposed is that it sounded so crazy that you had to have some kind of extreme experience to withstand criticism. If you could claim you were this way from birth, well, less chance someone could blame the "blank slate" for you condition (behavioralism was the in-thing in the 50/60's, society could shape people into whoever society wanted them to be); in this case, if you had a gender identity incongruity, it was your parents' fault. 

Ray Blanchard's first ideas about the condition (circa 1980) had all M2F transsexuals broken into the autogynephilics and the homosexuals. The former were those who presented later in life and weren't aware of their condition until adulthood; the homosexuals were very feminine and were attracted to men in their teens. Those were the categories, and the autogyns in some ways were not really seen to be as "valid" as the homosexuals. 

Those groupings still exist in old school thought; the new schools have either discarded them or woven them into new ideas. But essentially what I see in the Gen X and especially the Gen Y and younger community is that there is a variety of "coming out" and "self-awareness" experience. In the newest forms, of course, since no gender standards are assumed to be intrinsic, the distinctions don't even matter as much. One has their own unique self-identity and there is no reason to be judging another's experience.

For me, I was in the "7-8" crowd and was in a lot of misery through my teens, but i wasn't even aware I could do much about it until partway through my 20's, and that's when things REALLY got bad. (I think before it was bad but I just thought I had to suffer through it. It gets worse when you realize you could possibly fix things, but now according to society you'd be doing the equivalent of selling your soul.)


----------



## Entropic

Jennywocky said:


> It was a rather amazing experience to get out of my particular insular version-of-Christian environment and realize there were other Christians who had a different view on the matter. Also, I've been surprised at some people who identify as evangelical, yet saw my issue as a medical condition rather than a moral issue (if not at first, then after really looking at it in more detail).
> 
> I won't sugarcoat it and say that everyone will accept. I lost probably 90% of the Christians I had known in my life (some of them family), but I had been involved in more conservative religious venues, but then again, I wasn't close to them anyway because of prior differences and I was kind of amazed at high school and college friends who identify as Christian and were actually very supportive and gave me encouragement unexpectedly, at dark times during my journey. I think there is more variation in the faith than you might expect, if you live in an insular pocket.


I come from a very secular family (it's pretty much atheist) so religion was never the issue, but it doesn't mean people are less transphobic. I think most of all, when it comes to difficulties accepting change like this, it has more to do with one's own inabilities and using religion as an excuse to justify one's own shortcomings for oneself. Because if one is going to be absolutely nitpicky, Jesus' message of love should be above all else in my opinion, because that is what Christianity is about. Then one can argue whether OT or NT is a part of Christianity, go nitpick verse XX to justify one's beliefs and so on, but then I feel one is missing the point and is clinging to structure because it provides comfort rather than moving forward with oneself to achieve growth, that religion is about, in my opinion. But that's me, personally.


> Also... people who abandon you over something like this and automatically judge you as an enemy / anti-God were never your friends to begin with. It's a period of cleaning the chaff out and revealing what was always the case to start with.


I very much agree with this. Of course it can be shock to family and close ones and it can take time to process it, but usually those that really and truly genuinely love you will come around sooner or later because they see you as a person and every person deserves to be loved. 



> Everyone has got to find their own way, but I would say for me the two things that have defined me in my life have been the issues of God and the issues of my identity. The questions I've had to ask, the roads I've had to walk, the choices I've had to make, all really shaped who I am as a person and instigated growth -- I never had an easy way of things. I value growth, but yes, it was also very very painful sometimes.
> 
> I would say that in some ways I was very mature for my age, always (usually related to my intelligence and perspective), but I was also immature in a few areas -- one being perseverance, and another being confidence in myself as opposed to others. I still related to adults as a child might, unsure of myself, kind of non-committal, not paying the cost for the things I felt I should do, not just taking the responsibility and living with the consequences, apologizing to people for things I did not owe them an apology for, allowing them to "guilt" me into submission. I don't think it's really possible to serve something else fully until you come to terms with who you are and embrace yourself and can then move forward; it's always tainted and diverted, we're driven by the compulsive needs and fears underneath.
> 
> It took me a long time to grow to the point where I could actually make the changes I needed to make, and that experience itself was a crucible for me. I don't totally recognize the person I was even 5-6 years ago, it's me and I remember the choices I made but i don't necessarily remember all the 'why' that I made them because we had different concerns and different fears.


Yes, I think especially in more conservative countries, it can be very difficult to transition. Sweden is a good country in this regard in that everything is funded by the public healthcare system and people are at least, compared to other places, a bit more open-minded, though this isn't always true, of course. I've had a psychiatrist tell me that he can treat my "condition" with psychotherapy and "come to terms with" my gender e.g. my gender assigned at birth. 

But if people are like that, they just aren't worth your time and effort. If they hurt you and they don't understand, care or bother why or make changes, then it genuinely questions how important you are to them.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

ephemereality said:


> I see. I didn't understand you were referring specifically to children, though again, I find it rather stupid to try to gender children's behavior to begin with.


Curious, when is it no longer stupid to try to gender a person's behavior (puberty, teens, adulthood, etc)?


----------



## Entropic

lolthevoidlol said:


> Curious, when is it no longer stupid to try to gender a person's behavior (puberty, teens, adulthood, etc)?


Adults can at least make a conscious decision but yes. Though I find it rather unrealistic as of this moment to assume this is possible, but it should be with children considering the malleability of their identities.


----------



## He's a Superhero!

I feel sorry for people in this situation because discrimination for them is unavoidable if they are to be themselves. Keep strong, and know that plenty of people will love you, whatever you are. You might be surprised at how supporting some people will be, and know that you are not alone, but there are many out there who are in very similar situations.

With the discrimination, depression may be a problem for many transgender people, so here's a link to my thread about fighting depression: http://personalitycafe.com/advice-center/144731-tips-fighting-depression.html
Hope it helps.


----------



## Jennywocky

ephemereality said:


> I come from a very secular family (it's pretty much atheist) so religion was never the issue, but it doesn't mean people are less transphobic. I think most of all, when it comes to difficulties accepting change like this, it has more to do with one's own inabilities and using religion as an excuse to justify one's own shortcomings for oneself. Because if one is going to be absolutely nitpicky, Jesus' message of love should be above all else in my opinion, because that is what Christianity is about. Then one can argue whether OT or NT is a part of Christianity, go nitpick verse XX to justify one's beliefs and so on, but then I feel one is missing the point and is clinging to structure because it provides comfort rather than moving forward with oneself to achieve growth, that religion is about, in my opinion. But that's me, personally.


I am much more like you. I eventually realized as well that some people approach religion as a bastion against change, which unnerves them; it's not always about the issue itself but simply that something is changing. Religion and spirituality to me has always been about growth moves (M. Scott Peck's "Road less Traveled" and "People of the Lie" and other books resonated with me when I read them in my late teens or early 20's), and spirituality and psychology have always been rather intertwined for me; growth is uncomfortable and sometimes even very painful, but for me it's never been about pain but the destination. I wish others viewed it similarly.

With the family rejections I've suffered, I very much see it as personal discomfort leading to religion being used as justification for rejection (as these people also typically never engaged, they just avoided discussing anything at all).



> I very much agree with this. Of course it can be shock to family and close ones and it can take time to process it, but usually those that really and truly genuinely love you will come around sooner or later because they see you as a person and every person deserves to be loved.


It's been interesting with my mother. We will never be close because we are just very different, but shortly after I came out to her she felt the need to "confront me" and state what she thought (which is that she thought I was being selfish and also rejecting God). I had very mixed feelings; it hurt to have my mother, who never criticizes anyone, feel the need to read me a prepared statement; at the same time, I knew that was hard for her and actually found it admirable in some ways, despite how it was a poor outcome for me.

Since then, though, she soon moved into a space where she has little interest in ideological discussion or confrontation; she just wants to be my mother and have a relationship with me. She had some trouble at first because she had trouble envisioning how she could accept the "new" without losing the "old" -- she felt like she was losing the old me, and all her pictures and things had to be boxed away or discarded, etc. I can empathize with that as well. She moved to a slash form of name (oldname/newname) for awhile, then just calls me Jennifer or Jen now, and she's the only person in my extended family who cares to get together with me and engage me. We still talk on the phone weekly.

So to me, it's clear that she loves me, and was willing to move into an uncomfortable place so that we could still be part of each other's life. I might disagree with my mother on some things, but I see her heart as being in the right place. A lot of the other people in my family, though, well... it was clear they valued other things more than a relationship with me.


----------



## Entropic

Jennywocky said:


> I am much more like you. I eventually realized as well that some people approach religion as a bastion against change, which unnerves them; it's not always about the issue itself but simply that something is changing. Religion and spirituality to me has always been about growth moves (M. Scott Peck's "Road less Traveled" and "People of the Lie" and other books resonated with me when I read them in my late teens or early 20's), and spirituality and psychology have always been rather intertwined for me; growth is uncomfortable and sometimes even very painful, but for me it's never been about pain but the destination. I wish others viewed it similarly.
> 
> With the family rejections I've suffered, I very much see it as personal discomfort leading to religion being used as justification for rejection (as these people also typically never engaged, they just avoided discussing anything at all).


I agree and I think it is unfortunate people are this way. It's a way to avoid the pain that comes growing as a person and what makes matters worse is when that also hurts others, not just oneself.


> It's been interesting with my mother. We will never be close because we are just very different, but shortly after I came out to her she felt the need to "confront me" and state what she thought (which is that she thought I was being selfish and also rejecting God). I had very mixed feelings; it hurt to have my mother, who never criticizes anyone, feel the need to read me a prepared statement; at the same time, I knew that was hard for her and actually found it admirable in some ways, despite how it was a poor outcome for me.
> 
> Since then, though, she soon moved into a space where she has little interest in ideological discussion or confrontation; she just wants to be my mother and have a relationship with me. She had some trouble at first because she had trouble envisioning how she could accept the "new" without losing the "old" -- she felt like she was losing the old me, and all her pictures and things had to be boxed away or discarded, etc. I can empathize with that as well. She moved to a slash form of name (oldname/newname) for awhile, then just calls me Jennifer or Jen now, and she's the only person in my extended family who cares to get together with me and engage me. We still talk on the phone weekly.
> 
> So to me, it's clear that she loves me, and was willing to move into an uncomfortable place so that we could still be part of each other's life. I might disagree with my mother on some things, but I see her heart as being in the right place. A lot of the other people in my family, though, well... it was clear they valued other things more than a relationship with me.


Yeah, I need to bring up that stuff about photos sooner or later... I've never been fond of photos in the first place, but when my family have photos of me from my graduation day it makes me clearly uncomfortable. They could at least put it at a place where it's not visible for everyone to see, including me. Then they can go look at that photo how much they want outside of my company for all I care. None of my close family has been bothered by this and are openly supportive, though. The support they try to provide almost feels suffocating because they keep telling me they are there if I need to talk etc, and it almost becomes too much. So there's the other ironic backside to your family caring too. To me this is just a thing I am going through but I don't see it as anything strange or special but it seems to be to other people, so it somewhat bothers me. I am not inherently changing, but they do not see it because they see the outside.


----------



## Jennywocky

ephemereality said:


> Yeah, I need to bring up that stuff about photos sooner or later... I've never been fond of photos in the first place, but when my family have photos of me from my graduation day it makes me clearly uncomfortable. They could at least put it at a place where it's not visible for everyone to see, including me. Then they can go look at that photo how much they want outside of my company for all I care.


Idealistically, I'm to a point where I wish I lived in a world where I could openly show pictures of all parts of my life without having to protect anything, yet the problem is that I can exploited, dismissed, or rejected if I make myself that vulnerable in general. I mean, all those pictures are "me," it's just that I was miserable at the time. But it doesn't mean I did not exist before the time where i changed everything. That is still part of my history. I mean, I don't particularly like looking at them sometimes, but now it's on the level of "gross, I looked like that?" for me, which I think anyone can experience; usually if I feel bad, I am feeling about over how I felt at the time the picture was taken.

I'm actually a little subversive; I have one photo collage hanging on the wall that includes a picture of the "old me" in a group of other people, but I figure no one would recognize it (unless they actually knew me back then). It's kind of amusing.



> None of my close family has been bothered by this and are openly supportive, though. The support they try to provide almost feels suffocating because they keep telling me they are there if I need to talk etc, and it almost becomes too much. So there's the other ironic backside to your family caring too. To me this is just a thing I am going through but I don't see it as anything strange or special but it seems to be to other people, so it somewhat bothers me. I am not inherently changing, but they do not see it because they see the outside.


I know what you mean, it's like I do want people to understand where I'm coming from and my perspective, but I don't necessarily like being singled out or over-supported. I'm a grownup, I can deal with things in general.

Also, while in some ways I have changed a lot, I'm still "me" -- just moreso, because there was stuff I couldn't show in the past and had to cover up. I understand to others it might seem I've changed, especially physically, but for me, I'm still just... me. The night I went full-time, I had very strong feelings in part because my family was so rigid (so the change meant I *had* to leave certain things behind); on one hand, it felt like a literal "death" of the old self to me, and on the other hand, it was not a death at all, it was just one day passing to the next and I was still very much alive, with reports of my death greatly exaggerated.


----------



## Entropic

I have a question/request, but is it possible to change the title of this thread to "trans people", as it is less direct and targeted and involves all forms of transgender, not just MtF and FtM variants. 
@TreeBob @Promethea @timeless


----------



## Drewbie

I saw a doctor today for some antibiotics and just before I was about to leave I blurted out that I'm experiencing gender dysphoria, then I started panicking and she told me it was okay and that she would do some research, schedule an annual physical for me in 2-3 weeks, and we'd talk about it more then. 

I don't know what my emotions are doing. I'm ecstatic and terrified all at once.


----------



## Flatlander

Drewbie said:


> I saw a doctor today for some antibiotics and just before I was about to leave I blurted out that I'm experiencing gender dysphoria, then I started panicking and she told me it was okay and that she would do some research, schedule an annual physical for me in 2-3 weeks, and we'd talk about it more then.
> 
> I don't know what my emotions are doing. I'm ecstatic and terrified all at once.


Congrats, I think. Best of luck with the doc, sounds like she is likely to be on your side.


----------



## The Whirlwind

Drewbie said:


> I saw a doctor today for some antibiotics and just before I was about to leave I blurted out that I'm experiencing gender dysphoria, then I started panicking and she told me it was okay and that she would do some research, schedule an annual physical for me in 2-3 weeks, and we'd talk about it more then.
> 
> I don't know what my emotions are doing. I'm ecstatic and terrified all at once.


Coming out's the strangest thing ever.


* *




I came out as trans to a friend yesterday.

PLOT TWIST:


* *




She also came out as trans.

It's a great feeling, isn't it?


----------



## Drewbie

The Whirlwind said:


> Coming out's the strangest thing ever.
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I came out as trans to a friend yesterday.
> 
> PLOT TWIST:
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She also came out as trans.
> 
> It's a great feeling, isn't it?


That is the best plot twist I've ever heard in my life. A friend of mine came out to me around the same time I did but not like that. Congrats.



Flatlander said:


> Congrats, I think. Best of luck with the doc, sounds like she is likely to be on your side.


I'm hoping she will be. This is the same facility, though different doctor, where my girlfriend got her HRT prescriptions with minimal fuss or hoops to jump through so I have faith I'm in capable hands and I know at least one of the doctors here is trans friendly.


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## Flatlander

Drewbie said:


> I'm hoping she will be. This is the same facility, though different doctor, where my girlfriend got her HRT prescriptions with minimal fuss or hoops to jump through so I have faith I'm in capable hands and I know at least one of the doctors here is trans friendly.


Good place to blurt, then. They can direct you to resources and such.


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## Entropic

Drewbie said:


> I saw a doctor today for some antibiotics and just before I was about to leave I blurted out that I'm experiencing gender dysphoria, then I started panicking and she told me it was okay and that she would do some research, schedule an annual physical for me in 2-3 weeks, and we'd talk about it more then.
> 
> I don't know what my emotions are doing. I'm ecstatic and terrified all at once.


Sounds like you met a good doctor. A lot of docs today are very uneducated on the matter and might ask inappropriate questions regarding say, one's sexuality, make remarks regarding one's gender appearances or how they see how gender should and so on. Like one of the docs I saw immediately asked if I knew whether my sexual organs were "normal" trying hint at whether I know I am intersexual or not (it happens that intersexuals experience gender dysphoria but not always) and stuff like that, so it just didn't appear very competent from her end.


----------



## Jennywocky

The Whirlwind said:


> Coming out's the strangest thing ever.
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I came out as trans to a friend yesterday.
> 
> PLOT TWIST:
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She also came out as trans.
> 
> It's a great feeling, isn't it?


Lol. 

That reminds me of when I was playing Wow in the first year of transition, and I met this woman in-game who I immediately bonded with on a BFF. (Yeesh, I bet you all know where this story is going now...!)

So one Friday we're online chatting in-game and there's a pause, and then she goes, "I need to tell you something, and I hope you don't hate me, because I really enjoy our friendship..."

And immediately I'm like... oh. I know where this is going.

Of course, then she comes out and tells me she's a guy who just feels more comfortable in-game playing female characters because of his natural persona, even if he's happy being male IRL. 

And then he asked if I was okay with that. 

And then I said, "Well, I need to tell you something..."

I mean, my story was a little different because I was en route toward RL/online consistency  .... but just... wow.

He was actually helpful to me during the process, and very supportive, he even had his own server set up and gave me my own private e-mail at the time to help me keep the parts of my life separate until everything could be integrated again. But I still think of "him" (and it feels weird saying "he" despite his RL identity he was happy with) as the female character I met him as.

It was a weird feeling because, on one hand, the support from a male was affirming. On the other hand, to feel close and resonate with another woman (as I thought him to be) at the time was something I had craved too and was insecure about, as part of self-validation.



ephemereality said:


> Sounds like you met a good doctor. A lot of docs today are very uneducated on the matter and might ask inappropriate questions regarding say, one's sexuality, make remarks regarding one's gender appearances or how they see how gender should and so on. Like one of the docs I saw immediately asked if I knew whether my sexual organs were "normal" trying hint at whether I know I am intersexual or not (it happens that intersexuals experience gender dysphoria but not always) and stuff like that, so it just didn't appear very competent from her end.


It's still kind of a new thing for doctors in general and usually they become educated when they finally acquire some trans patients. 

In our local area (well, where I used to live), one transwoman is actually a pediatrician at a reputable specialist hospital (people come from far distances to be treated there, depending on the issue) and she and a social worker would actually hold brown-bag sessions to talk about trans issues and trans medicine, for the local-area doctors, therapists, and psychiatrists to attend. Those kinds of things were very helpful to give medical personnel a sense of what the issues were, how to interact with trans patients, the general state of medical research, etc.


----------



## Entropic

Jennywocky said:


> It's still kind of a new thing for doctors in general and usually they become educated when they finally acquire some trans patients.
> 
> In our local area (well, where I used to live), one transwoman is actually a pediatrician at a reputable specialist hospital (people come from far distances to be treated there, depending on the issue) and she and a social worker would actually hold brown-bag sessions to talk about trans issues and trans medicine, for the local-area doctors, therapists, and psychiatrists to attend. Those kinds of things were very helpful to give medical personnel a sense of what the issues were, how to interact with trans patients, the general state of medical research, etc.


Yes, I noticed a bit of a change after I sought out the local clinic here, as it seemed they quickly did some internal education on the matter or similar because I was a very frequent patient for a while. Overall they didn't make a fuss about it but just treated me like any other patient, though at the time I hadn't officially changed my name yet, so it was frustrating having to deal with them because they would always refer to my name given by birth and so on because that's what it said on my file. 

So it just highly depends. Some people are great, some people not so great, like the psychotherapist I spoke to over the phone who insisted that gender problems are things one can "come to terms with" utilizing psychotherapy.


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## Drewbie

So I just realized that when I come out as trans to my parents I might be able to pacify them a bit by suggesting that my girlfriend and I are almost practically a straight couple. You know, like, if you turn your head and squint we kinda look like a straight couple. I've never heard their opinion of trans people but I do know they highly disapprove of non-heterosexuality so that's gotta soften the blow a tiny bit, right? (not that I care about their disapproval of non-heterosexuality or interpret any of my relationships as straight but I'd like to avoid as much of the inevitable shit storm as possible)


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## Flatlander

Drewbie said:


> So I just realized that when I come out as trans to my parents I might be able to pacify them a bit by suggesting that my girlfriend and I are almost practically a straight couple. You know, like, if you turn your head and squint we kinda look like a straight couple. I've never heard their opinion of trans people but I do know they highly disapprove of non-heterosexuality so that's gotta soften the blow a tiny bit, right? (not that I care about their disapproval of non-heterosexuality or interpret any of my relationships as straight but I'd like to avoid as much of the inevitable shit storm as possible)


That's the kind of justification some of the stringent cultures of the Middle East seem to use for acknowledging the existence of transsexuals and encouraging their surgery. It means the person was actually straight, not homosexual, so it's a warped way to get around a diagnosis that seems unthinkable to their religious tenets. It's weird to me because I know gender and sexuality to be two technically unrelated distinctions, but if it works, it works.

Coming out to parents can be difficult. I had a hard time with my own so I don't know what help I can offer you; my parents seemed to be human things that have required 8 years to deal with grief, loss and such when I presented them with the fact that they lost the entity/idea they were placing all their expectations on (a daughter), even if it was to be replaced with a son, and still aren't quite over it as a family unit. So I wonder, about your parents - how is your relationship to them as it stands? Do they perceive you as feminine? Masculine? What do they appear to expect of you? What do they know of you? Could you predict whether it would surprise them if you came out as transgendered? If you can, you might be more successful strategizing about coming out than I was - I was naive enough to think my parents would be happy that I figured this out about myself, but it turned out that I was utterly blind to their expectations in anything dealing with gender or sex.


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## Drewbie

Flatlander said:


> That's the kind of justification some of the stringent cultures of the Middle East seem to use for acknowledging the existence of transsexuals and encouraging their surgery. It means the person was actually straight, not homosexual, so it's a warped way to get around a diagnosis that seems unthinkable to their religious tenets. It's weird to me because I know gender and sexuality to be two technically unrelated distinctions, but if it works, it works.
> 
> Coming out to parents can be difficult. I had a hard time with my own so I don't know what help I can offer you; my parents seemed to be human things that have required 8 years to deal with grief, loss and such when I presented them with the fact that they lost the entity/idea they were placing all their expectations on (a daughter), even if it was to be replaced with a son, and still aren't quite over it as a family unit. So I wonder, about your parents - how is your relationship to them as it stands? Do they perceive you as feminine? Masculine? What do they appear to expect of you? What do they know of you? Could you predict whether it would surprise them if you came out as transgendered? If you can, you might be more successful strategizing about coming out than I was - I was naive enough to think my parents would be happy that I figured this out about myself, but it turned out that I was utterly blind to their expectations in anything dealing with gender or sex.



My relationship with them is strained and superficial. They're very good at only seeing what they want to see and though we're trying to work through our problems right now it's a struggle. It's hard to tell what they think of me, because it's really hard to imagine they look at me and see a feminine person but every other word out of their mouths when they talk to me is affirmations of my femininity and womanhood. It's a bit excessive actually, like they're trying to convince both themselves and me that somewhere deep down I am inherently feminine. When I wanted to cut my hair short for the first time, my father insisted on doing it and he pretty much cried the entire time. My parents don't honestly know much about me, they were strict when I was a child and I learned very early that if I wanted to develop my own interests the key to being able to pursue those freely was never mention them to my parents. I've essentially been double life-ing things since before I hit puberty. 

However, I have some indication that they might not be as surprised by my being trans as they were by my first coming out. I distinctly remember, about 4 years ago, my mother directly asked me if I was a girl, which would have been the perfect opportunity to come out and say no but of course, instinct kicked in and I lied before I could even completely process the implications of the question. They know I'm vocally supportive of trans rights and they know my girlfriend is a trans woman though they've never spoken one way or another on how they feel about trans issues. It's a subject they deliberately avoid, even when I bring it up. So I don't know how they'll take it. 

I doubt they'll take it well, they don't really know how to take anything that disrupts the family dynamic well. When I came out as gay I spent the next 6 months walking into random "interventions" and every one of them at some point individually took me aside and told me I needed to change or even just go back into the closet 'for the sake of the family'. But they cannot comprehend why after 6 months of that I decided to move 2100 miles away and are still trying to convince me I'd be happiest if I moved back in with them in their tiny 2 bedroom apartment and, like, lived on their couch or something.


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## Entropic

Families just suck. Period. I find there is little to gain from family or family relations. People who get along great and are close to their families, well good enough for them, but I personally never understood it. We're all the same, ultimately.

It's difficult to predict how family will react. I thought mine would react extremely negatively but instead I was positively surprised. The only way you'll know is when you tell them, essentially.


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## Watch Key Phone

ephemereality said:


> By non-binary you mean intergender, genderqueer and so on?


Yup. 

While everyone is talking about coming out. I talked to my parents and brother about using a different (gender-neutral) name last week. My brother was amazing, as I knew he would be. Completely understanding and supportive. Parents were very surprised and confused (although I'm not sure why because I've been taking pretty major steps towards dressing/appearing more neutral in the last year or so). Both said that they would have trouble calling me a different name because they're so used to my birthname. I suppose that's fair enough but it seemed like they were both just saying they weren't even going to try.

My mum also asked about sexuality and I was sort of vague and non-commital because I didn't want to have to have The Asexual Talk at the same time. But I pretty much explained asexuality, just without using the word. The next day mum asked me some more questions and I figured out that the main things that bothered her were, a) She didn't understand what it means, because she'd never know of non-binary gender before. b) She was worried that it was somehow related to my weight and that I would try to remain underweight because that would enable me to appear more gender-neutral (I told her that was completely false, because it is). I think she understood a bit better after that. My dad has made no further mention of it at all, seems to be completely ignoring that I even said anything. I'm not sure how to feel about that. I know that it's probably just because he doesn't know how to react or is embarrassed or something. But I'd much rather than he openly asked questions like my mum did - that way at least I'd know that he was the least bit interested or cared at all.

Still, I know it all could have gone a lot worse. I was out to my friends quite a while ago, and had been 'testing' out the new name with them beforehand. So now all my closest people know, I'm thinking of changing my name on facebook as a way of getting the message out to everyone else. Just not quite sure how to approach that. Advice welcome.


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## Entropic

The Whirlwind said:


> I just remembered an excellent paper I read about transgender people through life... very accurately describes my feelings up until now:
> 
> Transsexuality and its impact across the life span
> 
> For anyone lurking in this thread unsure of yourselves, please read it.


I'm sorry, but I think that paper sucks and fails on its immediate basis in trying to understand transgender solely based on biological factors. That itself showcases a serious bias here. I can tell that this person has zero knowledge in the social sciences. 

Also, the definition of transgender here is so damn narrow. There is no attempt to problematize what trans _is_. Sorry, peer-reviewed or not, this is in my opinion a shit paper. I'm also missing a lot of sources for some claims here. I don't relate much to G2 either. It only applies up to a certain point. 

In the Swedish information leaflet I got from my clinic, transgender was defined as primary and secondary. Primary is essentially what the paper describes, where people can feel a strong sense of being forced to express the wrong gender even at a very early age, though this age itself differs and varies from young child as the paper depicts up to teenage years. I think anyone receives primary if they show signs during childhood e.g. it is not something that is necessarily the most experienced during adult life. Though I think this definition is tricky in itself too since gender can come with a range and change as we go through life. If one is a trict Butlerist (adherent of Judith Butler's idea of gender), then gender identities are identities we in fact change in every situation we're in as each situation demands a different social expectation.

Secondary then, is when it's developed later in life and thus has no bearing at all to anything the author is referring to as transgender or gender dysphoria issues. 

Ah, even her language is shitty. Formulations like these: "a boy who wants to be a girl" 

Language use like this suggests that the person is a boy who wants to be a girl, as in, the proper gender is actually boy. Instead of expressing it as for example, a biological man who wants to be a girl. Because if the person wants to be a girl, is the person actually you know, a boy? If we define the person as a boy who wants to be a girl, then we define that person based on external behavior and traits in that it looks like a boy. That way of defining people and gender is extremely problematic. Just because it looks like a boy and quacks like a boy it doesn't mean in this case, that it is a boy. Based on whose standards of what a boy is?

Same here, this entire paragraph: 


> Arlene who is now in her fifties, reported a traumatic incident in school when, at the age of six, she *(then he)*, was made to stand in front of *his *first-grade class wearing a large pink ribbon while *his *classmates were encouraged to laugh at *him*. *He *was being "corrected" for having been "caught" playing hopscotch with the girls during recess.


If the person now identifies herself as a she, why refer to her as "he" when talking about the past? That's incredibly rude. I would never ever accept someone to talk about me as "she" in the past because I never was a "she" except in the eyes of others.

And here too again: 


> On the other hand a girl who wants to be a boy and is willing to admit it can expect far less retribution for her behavior. Girls who affect boyish behavior are generally perceived as cute and the behavior is usually tolerated by friends, family and school officials through childhood. Although they reported mild social pressure to "dress pretty" and be more gentle, none of the male-identified female clients I have worked with have shared experiencing behavioral modification efforts like the one endured by the hopscotch-playing boy.


Reading this paper and knowing this person is treating trans people makes me depressed when it's so obvious the author is so clearly lacking knowledge about how to deal with transpeople. 

Also, why not approach these two things from a gender POV? What is being described here is nothing unique or special at all and has to do with certain heteronormative assumptions about how genders "should be" in order to be perceived as the "correct" gender. Very weak analysis. 

This paragraph is dubious in content:


> Undoubtedly, there are cases where only guidance and time are needed to correct a gender identity misunderstanding in a child. In others, however, it appears that once gender identity is established, no amount of redirecting can change the child's gender identification. Some boys in particular openly endure the taunts of their peers and castigations of their parents in order to live according to their cross-gender understanding. The Child and Adolescent Gender Identity Clinic of Toronto treats many such children brought in by parents who are concerned over what they believe is unacceptable cross-gender behavior. Zucker and Bradly, reporting on the clinic's outcomes, report a high rate of helping these families. Interestingly, Ken Zucker and Susan Bradley (1995, p32), report a referral ratio of male children to female children entered for treatment since 1978 (n=249) to be 6.3 to 1. Since there is no evidence that cross-gender behavior occurs more often in boys than it does in girls, a possible interpretation of this statistic is that effeminacy in boys may be considered by parents to be more upsetting and in need of correction than tomboyish behavior in girls.


Yes, social gender is generally agreed upon to be established around the age of 3-4 when children become aware of such social expectations, but does it mean gender identity itself is established? She apparently makes this assumption. Weak reasoning. Social gender =/= internal sense of who one is. 

This is a very confusing paragraph: 



> As Andrea above, it is common for clients to report thinking in childhood that gender assignment was based on parental preference and therefore open for redress. Girls are especially aggressive in their insistence that they are really boys. Indeed many are so insistent that they go on to act for all intents and purposes as though they are boys, a pattern they carry into adulthood.


I assume it refers to FTMs, but why not state so instead of using the term "girls"? Not only is it offensive but it confuses what is being inferred to.


> If there was ever going to be a chance for these individuals to show that they are not really the gender everyone else believes they are, early adolescence is certainly it. Virtually every individual I have interviewed reported wanting desperately to have hidden internal sex organs of the desired gender finally come to life during adolescence, giving them the desired secondary sex characteristics.


Heh, don't relate to this. I never thought mine were hidden. I just despised the way my body functioned, the way I came to realize it functioned, at which point an equally strong desire developed to "change". 

Why yes, hello heternormative assumptions:


> G1 boys, who have a strong feminine core identity, typically develop a sexual interest in other boys during adolescence and prefer girls as peer friends


Obviously only girls like being around girls and like boys, right? You can't be girly girly and still like being around boys or sexually like other girls. I'm fairly sure there's a great number of people out there who don't fit this description at all but still like to be girly girly. 


> In distinct contrast, genetic females who do not seek sex reassignment make little or no concerted effort to be rid of their gender dysphoria. Although they may be deeply disturbed by having acquired female secondary sex characteristics in puberty, many assume an androgynous appearance and affect outright male mannerisms. In larger cities, they may find refuge by taking active roles in the lesbian community and being involved in typically male occupations.


This is so stereotype, the lesbian activities. It only applies if they actually think they are lesbian which is not always the case. I sense some heteronormative assumptions from the author here. There are plenty of homosexual transguys out there who only like men, or bisexuals, or demis, or asexuals ad nauseam. Also, the people who I have seen are this way, they are just so weird to me. I don't understand why someone ever, for the sake of their own sanity, would join a lesbian community, I swear. They are all in this manner, I don't know how to put it, but it creeps me out. Seriously so. 

So while this is likely the author's own experiences treating patients with gender dysphoria, I would have to say it's a really poorly written article. There is no reviewing over the language used, there is no description of terminology to ease reading and it captures an extremely narrow range of transgender individuals or for the matter, what transgender is.


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## Entropic

Watch Key Phone said:


> Yup.
> 
> While everyone is talking about coming out. I talked to my parents and brother about using a different (gender-neutral) name last week. My brother was amazing, as I knew he would be. Completely understanding and supportive. Parents were very surprised and confused (although I'm not sure why because I've been taking pretty major steps towards dressing/appearing more neutral in the last year or so). Both said that they would have trouble calling me a different name because they're so used to my birthname. I suppose that's fair enough but it seemed like they were both just saying they weren't even going to try.
> 
> My mum also asked about sexuality and I was sort of vague and non-commital because I didn't want to have to have The Asexual Talk at the same time. But I pretty much explained asexuality, just without using the word. The next day mum asked me some more questions and I figured out that the main things that bothered her were, a) She didn't understand what it means, because she'd never know of non-binary gender before. b) She was worried that it was somehow related to my weight and that I would try to remain underweight because that would enable me to appear more gender-neutral (I told her that was completely false, because it is). I think she understood a bit better after that. My dad has made no further mention of it at all, seems to be completely ignoring that I even said anything. I'm not sure how to feel about that. I know that it's probably just because he doesn't know how to react or is embarrassed or something. But I'd much rather than he openly asked questions like my mum did - that way at least I'd know that he was the least bit interested or cared at all.
> 
> Still, I know it all could have gone a lot worse. I was out to my friends quite a while ago, and had been 'testing' out the new name with them beforehand. So now all my closest people know, I'm thinking of changing my name on facebook as a way of getting the message out to everyone else. Just not quite sure how to approach that. Advice welcome.


Yes, name is really iffy. I know people keep saying that "it's difficult getting used to" because "old habits", and yes, I get that to a degree, but as you say, it sounds like an excuse to not try. Is it really that difficult? I have to do the same thing with myself and it's not that difficult at all thinking of myself with new name, presenting myself with new name, referring myself with new pronouns. Same job. I even picked a name that resembles my old name and people still get it wrong. So while I can understand I also feel it's part laziness on their end, all of them. If you were always actively thinking about me the right way and you were self-correcting each other, it's no big deal. It goes faster getting used to than what one thinks. It's no different to changing forum name and people getting used to that.


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## The Whirlwind

@ephemereality

I happen to disagree with you, but I can see with this upsets you.

I don't want an argument but I just wanted to specify my opinion on pronouns... the way you seem to put it, you seem to assume any "incorrect" use of pronouns to be insulting. I, as I am, don't mind being referred to with masculine pronouns because it fits how I unfortunately have to present myself for the time being. Same for past tense. I might feel opposite how I present, but I, personally, don't want to be referred to as "she" until I start passing.

But this is just my opinion. I really doubt I'm alone in this, but if you were really that offended by the paper, I'm sorry for that. I found it on a site with lots of transgender people agreeing with it (myself included) and felt like it'd be appropriate to post here.


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## Playful Proxy

The Whirlwind said:


> @_ephemereality_
> 
> I happen to disagree with you, but I can see with this upsets you.
> 
> I don't want an argument but I just wanted to specify my opinion on pronouns... the way you seem to put it, you seem to assume any "incorrect" use of pronouns to be insulting. I, as I am, don't mind being referred to with masculine pronouns because it fits how I unfortunately have to present myself for the time being. Same for past tense. I might feel opposite how I present, but I, personally, don't want to be referred to as "she" until I start passing.
> 
> But this is just my opinion. I really doubt I'm alone in this, but if you were really that offended by the paper, I'm sorry for that. I found it on a site with lots of transgender people agreeing with it (myself included) and felt like it'd be appropriate to post here.


Just as you yourself said the word "unfortunately", I think that's the part that counts. If a person is now presenting themself as their actual gender, it is extremely insulting to refer to them with the incorrect pronoun. For instance, in my case, I haven't done squat toward transition as I'm still feeling things out, so I expect to be referred to as male. I'd feel weird if I were referred to as another pronoun at this stage in the game as I don't feel like I've earned it yet and it wouldn't make the slightest bit of rational sense for someone to magically know otherwise.


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## Entropic

Yes, Signify captured what I was getting at well. The people appearing in this paper are all old patients, so why refer to incorrect pronouns? And there is better terminology to use such as FtM or MtF that clarifies, instead of using boy and girl for both. Maybe some people don't get upset but it's beyond the point -- the point is that the article doesn't review its use of terminology over these matters that simplifies communication between author and reader without stepping on potential toes. Consider the example with the transwoman who was bullied and corrected at school
Why call this person a boy and simply not a girl born a boy or appeared as a boy at the time? Even that suggests binary thinking but it's much better than just writing boy.


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## Watch Key Phone

ephemereality said:


> Yes, name is really iffy. I know people keep saying that "it's difficult getting used to" because "old habits", and yes, I get that to a degree, but as you say, it sounds like an excuse to not try. Is it really that difficult? I have to do the same thing with myself and it's not that difficult at all thinking of myself with new name, presenting myself with new name, referring myself with new pronouns. Same job. I even picked a name that resembles my old name and people still get it wrong. So while I can understand I also feel it's part laziness on their end, all of them. If you were always actively thinking about me the right way and you were self-correcting each other, it's no big deal. It goes faster getting used to than what one thinks. It's no different to changing forum name and people getting used to that.


Good point about the individual also having to make an effort to use a different name. I asked my friends to use a new name months ago and although they do sometimes slip up, they all make a real effort and I appreciate that so much. Whereas my parents pretty much just said "I don't think I'll be able to... therefore I won't try."

When I spoke to my mum about it again the next day, I asked her why it would be so difficult - seeing as people actually do change their names sometimes, believe it or not. She said that if I had told her I wanted to be a man, and to use a completely male name, it would be different. Because I would then be "like a different person, and grow and beard and get a deep voice". It's the kind of ignorance that comes from simply having to no real exposure to gender stuff - it's not malicious. But still disappointing. I made an effort to explain that actually, the person stays the _same_, and it's just their appearance that changes to fit in with their own identity. I think she sort of understood when I said that. But still she hasn't bothered actually trying to use my name.

I'm not quite sure I understood this section: "If you were always actively thinking about me the right way and you were self-correcting each other, it's no big deal. It goes faster getting used to than what one thinks." Could you possibly explain it in a different way?

At the moment, I'm gradually working up the courage to make a more large-scale announcement to extended family and acquaintances. If possible, I'll probably avoid talking too much about the gender stuff - trying to explain the idea of non-binary gender will almost certainly go badly. I think I might just change my facebook name (I'm thinking of facebook as being the first step towards bringing it up, because it's generally my first point of contact with most people), post a status along the lines of "using a different name now", and then see how people react. If there are a lot of questions, I will try and explain. If not, I will just leave it to settle in. I'm not sure though. Does anyone have advice or experiences about name changes and/or coming out to extended family and acquaintances?


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## Entropic

Watch Key Phone said:


> I'm not quite sure I understood this section: "If you were always actively thinking about me the right way and you were self-correcting each other, it's no big deal. It goes faster getting used to than what one thinks." Could you possibly explain it in a different way?


What I mean is that when people think about you, they should think about you the right way e.g. right pronouns, right name, right gender. If they do this, and when they notice they slip-up they self-correct themselves, which of course requires some attention to one's thinking processes that I find is strangely difficult to most individuals and I do not understand this but regardless, then it's not an issue. Learning will go rather quick. People change surnames too and it's no big deal, or companies change name and people have no issues with that either. So why first names? Because they place a personal emphasis on the name they're not aware of which goes beyond mere "habit". That name means something to them, and changing name, pronoun and the way they think about you in terms of gender is something people have difficulties doing because I think it ultimately boils down to one thing, and it's comfort. It's easier not to than to do it. People are and always will be lazy. 



> At the moment, I'm gradually working up the courage to make a more large-scale announcement to extended family and acquaintances. If possible, I'll probably avoid talking too much about the gender stuff - trying to explain the idea of non-binary gender will almost certainly go badly. I think I might just change my facebook name (I'm thinking of facebook as being the first step towards bringing it up, because it's generally my first point of contact with most people), post a status along the lines of "using a different name now", and then see how people react. If there are a lot of questions, I will try and explain. If not, I will just leave it to settle in. I'm not sure though. Does anyone have advice or experiences about name changes and/or coming out to extended family and acquaintances?


I told all the close people I thought were relevant to know before I came out openly including my job, but the official coming out was on Facebook. I simply changed my name and wrote a post that I am now going to go by this name instead and this gender so please think of how you call me in the future and so on. No one asked any questions on my FB page.


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## Jennywocky

Signify said:


> Meh. I read through everything up until right before the MIDDLE AGE range to see if I related. This article seems to focus very heavily on proving diagnosis through one's desire to cross-dress (at least for its Type 3 description). Personally, I can't relate. If I were to cross-dress and look at myself in a mirror, I'd laugh at myself and feel bad since I'd say I looked ridiculous. I tried at younger age and it didn't do a whole lot for me. I may be weird, but I"m more body-centric than clothes-centric.


Yes, generally for me, I felt that I looked ridiculous and clothes didn't do much to alleviate anything I was feeling. It was a little more ambiguous when younger (as I guess I was still figuring things out) but at some point years before transition I did not dress at all because it just made me feel worse -- reminding me of how wrong my body was.

I mean, it's nice to be aware to wear clothes now that are naturally representative of who I am, but... they're just clothes.



Flatlander said:


> I think the description still misses the point of some people's experiences (it doesn't jive precisely with mine, and the only group I would nominally fit into is G2 - I know myself to be FTM transsexual though), but it is a start. I would like to see a real compendium of personal experiences though, more diversity explored.


Well, just to note, what you're suggesting is a "change" versus a "start." Anne's been doing this for a few decades and a lot of her hands-on research came from the 90's, maybe a little before. The groupings she has made (including the primary and secondary transsexual) is actually the status of the research in the 70-90's, I recall from my research at the time trying to read everything I could. I think I first started reading Anne's stuff in the 90's, when the Internet finally really made this kind of information sharing viable. (Before then you were stuck with private BBS's, research journals, and library books.)

It sounds to me like there needs to be re-canvass of the data with younger transitioners over the last 15 years or so, and seeing how things categorize themselves. I have found a far different experience and approach between Boomer transitioners (many of whom waited until later in life to transition) and Gen Y and younger transitioners (who tend to transition now in their 20's before establishing a family and career).

As a side note, I think the early fixation on M2F's and the reality that many transitioners did so later in life can explain the "cross-dressing" focus you see in much of the research. A lot of people did what they could do to cope, and for some that worked, I suppose. But even "cross-dressing" is an inaccurate term, if someone is merely dressing in the clothes whose gender they identify with... and that comment itself is made without taking non-binaries into account.


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## Watch Key Phone

ephemereality said:


> What I mean is that when people think about you, they should think about you the right way e.g. right pronouns, right name, right gender. If they do this, and when they notice they slip-up they self-correct themselves, which of course requires some attention to one's thinking processes that I find is strangely difficult to most individuals and I do not understand this but regardless, then it's not an issue. Learning will go rather quick. People change surnames too and it's no big deal, or companies change name and people have no issues with that either. So why first names? Because they place a personal emphasis on the name they're not aware of which goes beyond mere "habit". That name means something to them, and changing name, pronoun and the way they think about you in terms of gender is something people have difficulties doing because I think it ultimately boils down to one thing, and it's comfort. It's easier not to than to do it. People are and always will be lazy.


I see what you mean now, thanks. It seems strange, though - especially with my mum. Because the second conversation we had ended with her just saying "the thing I want most is for you to be happy". And yet for some reason she doesn't make the connection that her at least _trying_ to use my preferred name might make me happy? I think she probably has other reasons to do with being worried about me and my future and that avoiding using my preferred name will avoid her having to think about those things. It's not so much laziness, but it is about comfort - protecting herself from uncomfortable or worrying thoughts.



> I told all the close people I thought were relevant to know before I came out openly including my job, but the official coming out was on Facebook. I simply changed my name and wrote a post that I am now going to go by this name instead and this gender so please think of how you call me in the future and so on. No one asked any questions on my FB page.


Did you talk to people in person (edit: to clarify, I mean in person as opposed to, say, writing a letter, or sending an email)? Roughly how many people would you class as 'those you thought were relevant'?


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## Entropic

Watch Key Phone said:


> I see what you mean now, thanks. It seems strange, though - especially with my mum. Because the second conversation we had ended with her just saying "the thing I want most is for you to be happy". And yet for some reason she doesn't make the connection that her at least _trying_ to use my preferred name might make me happy? I think she probably has other reasons to do with being worried about me and my future and that avoiding using my preferred name will avoid her having to think about those things. It's not so much laziness, but it is about comfort - protecting herself from uncomfortable or worrying thoughts.


Well, it's a combination of them. It is lazy to not try to work on it actively, whether that laziness is the result of comfort and avoiding having to deal with it. And yes, my family does the same but I don't think they fully realize the connection they play and what I am doing and going through. They only see the superficial and make associations without realizing the full extent in which they too play a role.


> Did you talk to people in person (edit: to clarify, I mean in person as opposed to, say, writing a letter, or sending an email)? Roughly how many people would you class as 'those you thought were relevant'?


I told my best friend face to face, my father and grandmother over the phone and I sent an email to my boss.


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## Entropic

A completely different but in my opinion, extremely relevant and good study: http://www.scottishtrans.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/trans_mh_study.pdf


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## Drewbie

So, I am going to be talking to my doctor on Thursday about my gender dysphoria and my desire to transition but, as non-binary person, I'm not sure how to approach it. I want to be honest about my gender, but my doctor doesn't have any experience with trans people of even the binary variety and there is so little recognition for non-binary trans people that I'm really unsure of her reaction. I tried talking to a therapist about my gender dysphoria once and she immediately brushed me off and came to the conclusion that I only thought I should be transgender because the people closest to me are transgender and I'm trying to emulate them or some nonsense. 

Has any other non-binary person here talked to a doctor or therapist about being non-binary and/or gender dysphoria associated with being non-binary? I am really terrible with verbalizing and could use any sort of advice for how to get myself across well.


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## Jwing24

Drewbie said:


> So, I am going to be talking to my doctor on Thursday about my gender dysphoria and my desire to transition but, as non-binary person, I'm not sure how to approach it. I want to be honest about my gender, but my doctor doesn't have any experience with trans people of even the binary variety and there is so little recognition for non-binary trans people that I'm really unsure of her reaction. I tried talking to a therapist about my gender dysphoria once and she immediately brushed me off and came to the conclusion that I only thought I should be transgender because the people closest to me are transgender and I'm trying to emulate them or some nonsense.
> 
> Has any other non-binary person here talked to a doctor or therapist about being non-binary and/or gender dysphoria associated with being non-binary? I am really terrible with verbalizing and could use any sort of advice for how to get myself across well.


Can you look online for doctors who actually have experience with this? Maybe you can talk to them. Not sure if there are any clinics where you are, if there are, go there. Otherwise my first suggestion is all I can think of.


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## Drewbie

Jwing24 said:


> Can you look online for doctors who actually have experience with this? Maybe you can talk to them. Not sure if there are any clinics where you are, if there are, go there. Otherwise my first suggestion is all I can think of.


I'm pretty much stuck with what I have in this town. I don't drive and I'm in a small rural town without good public transit. The closest city that might have a doctor or therapist that specializes in trans issues would be several hours away and probably in the next state over. Luckily, I know there is at least one trans friendly doctor at the health care center I go to and I'm fairly certain my doctor will be willing to work with me. My concern, really, is getting her to understand my needs when I tend to be very bad at articulating my needs.


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## Entropic

Drewbie said:


> So, I am going to be talking to my doctor on Thursday about my gender dysphoria and my desire to transition but, as non-binary person, I'm not sure how to approach it. I want to be honest about my gender, but my doctor doesn't have any experience with trans people of even the binary variety and there is so little recognition for non-binary trans people that I'm really unsure of her reaction. I tried talking to a therapist about my gender dysphoria once and she immediately brushed me off and came to the conclusion that I only thought I should be transgender because the people closest to me are transgender and I'm trying to emulate them or some nonsense.
> 
> Has any other non-binary person here talked to a doctor or therapist about being non-binary and/or gender dysphoria associated with being non-binary? I am really terrible with verbalizing and could use any sort of advice for how to get myself across well.


Unfortunately my overall impression isn't that people tend to hide the fact that they are non-binary because it might make it more difficult to receive treatment for various reasons. I mean, look at the article linked earlier in this thread about this psychologist and her experiences. It only fits a very narrow view of transgender and this is a problem in general. Even when it come to specialists, they have certain ways to understand transgender and this understanding determines diagnosis unfortunately. It's getting better but it's still pretty bad, at least in Sweden, where many feel they need to hide or lie about who they are or how they truly feel.


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## Drewbie

The talk with my doctor went well and she set me up an appointment with the in house counselor _tomorrow_, who might be able to officially diagnose me with gender dysphoria or refer me to a psychiatrist and/or psychologist who can and when that happens my doctor is willing to help me navigate my transition. I'm having a hard time believing it's happening. I've been sitting on this and not talking about it for years because of the anxiety the thought of coming out has caused me and now everything is moving way faster and more smoothly than I ever imagined it could. I don't think my emotions have caught up to the reality yet.


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## Jennywocky

Drewbie said:


> The talk with my doctor went well and she set me up an appointment with the in house counselor _tomorrow_, who might be able to officially diagnose me with gender dysphoria or refer me to a psychiatrist and/or psychologist who can and when that happens my doctor is willing to help me navigate my transition. I'm having a hard time believing it's happening. I've been sitting on this and not talking about it for years because of the anxiety the thought of coming out has caused me and now everything is way faster and more smoothly than I ever imagined it could. I don't think my emotions have caught up to the reality yet.


I'm happy things went far better than your expectations for today. Sometimes a day is rough, sometimes a day works out wonderfully. It's a matter of just moving forward and taking everything in stride and not giving up.

It's pretty awesome you'll have an appointment TOMORROW already, sometimes there are weeks between appointments. And I'm really happy you have some kind of medical professional in your corner, wanting to help you out. You definitely made some huge progress today.


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## Drewbie

Jennywocky said:


> I'm happy things went far better than your expectations for today. Sometimes a day is rough, sometimes a day works out wonderfully. It's a matter of just moving forward and taking everything in stride and not giving up.
> 
> It's pretty awesome you'll have an appointment TOMORROW already, sometimes there are weeks between appointments. And I'm really happy you have some kind of medical professional in your corner, wanting to help you out. You definitely made some huge progress today.


Yeah, it's both good and bad that I've been getting appointments so close together. Good because I really need to see someone about this and the sooner it happens the sooner I can start getting my life back together. Bad because I don't have insurance and while I get a 50% discount on services from this health care center and my work will reimburse me up to $2000 a year on medical expenses, it takes a few weeks to get each reimbursement, I have to pay upfront in cash, and I'm probably going to run out of funds soon. :frustrating:


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## Jennywocky

Drewbie said:


> Yeah, it's both good and bad that I've been getting appointments so close together. Good because I really need to see someone about this and the sooner it happens the sooner I can start getting my life back together. Bad because I don't have insurance and while I get a 50% discount on services from this health care center and my work will reimburse me up to $2000 a year on medical expenses, it takes a few weeks to get each reimbursement, I have to pay upfront in cash, and I'm probably going to run out of funds soon. :frustrating:


Well, that's a definite wrinkle.

Do you have any friends or family that can help you foot the bill, since they'll know you're good for the money (with the reimbursement coming within a few weeks)?


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## Watch Key Phone

nevermore said:


> Numbing people's emotions is easy recourse for overeducated therapists who would like to wave problems away simply by waving emotions away. Sorry shrinks, that doesn't solve them...that just puts the conversation on hold - a long, shitty, numb, empty hold. What's the point of living even if you're not going to feel anything, good or bad? What's the pay-off? What are you salvaging when you rip the guts out of someone and replace them with nothing?
> 
> I've seldom encountered a therapist who could understand _why_ this was as undesirable or problematic as he/she seemed to think. I can get "don't know what to do", but the blanks they seem to draw when the conversation was brought up are what truly astound me.
> 
> It's well known that one possible side effect of depression is...emotional deadness. Seriously...you are giving people drugs to make them less depressed that make them more depressed? And how many degrees did you say you had?
> 
> I think a drug that did the reverse...like, you know, one that actually fought depression instead of wiping the emotional slate clean would be a better idea, but that wouldn't keep people apathetic and docile would it?


Have you been on antidepressants? If so, you've had an unfortunate and unsuccessful experience. If not, then you're perpetuating myths. Antidepressants do not 'numb' emotions.


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## nevermore

Watch Key Phone said:


> Have you been on antidepressants? If so, you've had an unfortunate and unsuccessful experience. If not, then you're perpetuating myths. Antidepressants do not 'numb' emotions.


Yes, unsuccessfully, though it wasn't the initial cause of the emotional side effects. But three people I know who've been on them complained about this. I talked to more people who've been on them about that consequence and they also did not correct me. If there are people who've done well with them (and _of course _there are many) I wish them well. But my general point still stands, which is really more about many psychologists missing the mark and not having an empathetic understanding of what it is their clients need, which is what @The Whirlwind was complaining about, and care more about getting people to superficially function (which I'm not saying isn't important as a first step but many seriously mentally ill people appear to be superficially functioning just fine).

Ultimately (and I'm not saying you weren't aware of this) my main gripe is with counsellors who don't understand the seriousness of numbed emotions or like to sweep the issue aside. I do not know why this is the case, and I'm not saying this is an issue for all of them but it has been an issue for most of the significant number of professionals I've been seeing for the past eight years. I am not saying anti-depressants never have a place (my friend would probably be dead without them, and he even shares most of my views on this issue) only that side effects like emotional numbness (which he also suffers from as a result of the meds) may be too significant a cost to pay in many cases.


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## Playful Proxy

nevermore said:


> Yes, unsuccessfully, though it wasn't the initial cause of the emotional side effects. But three people I know who've been on them complained about this. I talked to more people who've been on them about that consequence and they also did not correct me. If there are people who've done well with them (and _of course _there are many) I wish them well. But my general point still stands, which is really more about many psychologists missing the mark and not having an empathetic understanding of what it is their clients need, which is what @_The Whirlwind_ was complaining about, and care more about getting people to superficially function (which I'm not saying isn't important as a first step but many seriously mentally ill people appear to be superficially functioning just fine).
> 
> Ultimately (and I'm not saying you weren't aware of this) my main gripe is with counsellors who don't understand the seriousness of numbed emotions or like to sweep the issue aside. I do not know why this is the case, and I'm not saying this is an issue for all of them but it has been an issue for most of the significant number of professionals I've been seeing for the past eight years. I am not saying anti-depressants never have a place (my friend would probably be dead without them, and he even shares most of my views on this issue) only that side effects like emotional numbness (which he also suffers from as a result of the meds) may be too significant a cost to pay in many cases.


Hell, I'm not even on antidepressants and I swear that half of my problems associated with deciphering through this is how numb they are as-is. If they arn't 'extreme', I can't get a good handle on exactly what they are and even then, knowing WHAT they are is kinda pointless if one can't pick apart the 'Why'.


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## Jennywocky

nevermore said:


> Yes, unsuccessfully, though it wasn't the initial cause of the emotional side effects. But three people I know who've been on them complained about this. I talked to more people who've been on them about that consequence and they also did not correct me. If there are people who've done well with them (and _of course _there are many) I wish them well. But my general point still stands, which is really more about many psychologists missing the mark and not having an empathetic understanding of what it is their clients need, which is what _The Whirlwind_ was complaining about, and care more about getting people to superficially function (which I'm not saying isn't important as a first step but many seriously mentally ill people appear to be superficially functioning just fine).


My personal experience has been with good therapists, thank goodness. I've heard horror stories, but it's hard to judge all the factors involved in horror stories about therapists, I'm not sure I can make a broad indictment of the profession on that kind of basis and your comments are so general in terms of making broad indictments... there's nothing to push against or agree with.

Also, while I'm not superficial and prefer a "real" fix, the reality is that one of the first things a therapist will do with a badly functioning patient is try to stabilize them, since most people can't afford to be "messily broken.' typically they are in therapy BECAUSE they can no longer cope or function, and they need to maintain relationships and a job; it's like trying to keep the plane in the air so that it doesn't crash, THEN you can focus on deeper and more permanent fixes. So I guess one issue is how often therapists might stop with that vs getting things stable and then moving ahead to try to tease out underlying causes.

Another issue is that the patient is necessarily the treatment, without the patient's investment and commitment to therapy nothing can be fixed. The best a therapist could do is medicate. And some people are BADLY messed up and shouldn't be working at all, but have managed to build a lot of coping mechanisms that might derail the rest of the lives or make them and others unhappy, yet to remove those takes the utmost of care and time (to build new interactive patterns), and the patient has to be willing to invest the time. How many times do you avoid talking to someone about a personal topic where, when you ask an innocent question, it's like stepping on a landmine? Therapy is even more dangerous because it goes deeper, you're essentially rewiring a plane in the air or trying to unwire a bomb from an active system while keeping the system going. 

I simply want to be fair to the therapeutic profession. I think expectations of a quick fix from either a patient or therapeutic perspective are erroneous. 

That being said, we've gone from a behavioral / blank slate model of psychological behavior and issues half a century ago to a medicalization of many psychological issues. I expect this to be settling out but apparently things take time; the therapists I've had the fortune to work with see multi-pronged solutions; medicine can help with some things but not others, or can take the edge off mindstates that then frees a person up to do psychological work.



> Ultimately (and I'm not saying you weren't aware of this) my main gripe is with counsellors who don't understand the seriousness of numbed emotions or like to sweep the issue aside. I do not know why this is the case, and I'm not saying this is an issue for all of them but it has been an issue for most of the significant number of professionals I've been seeing for the past eight years. I am not saying anti-depressants never have a place (my friend would probably be dead without them, and he even shares most of my views on this issue) only that side effects like emotional numbness (which he also suffers from as a result of the meds) may be too significant a cost to pay in many cases.


What I've found is that doctors make educated guesses on what might be effective, but individuals all respond differently. I was really helped by one particular med, and another one did nothing for me and in fact created a bad experience, so I told my doctor I wasn't taking it anymore. Another issues with psychological pain is that even getting to a "normal" state can feel "numb" because the intensity of emotion is no longer there. I know there is actual numbness/deadening of emotions in some situations; I also suspect there is "perceived numbness" because one is acclimatized to a particular intensity of feeling (positive or negative) and the medication rounds off those peaks. My life is relatively normal nowadays and sometimes I find I crave the intensity of the emotions I used to feel, even when they were negative; normality is an odd feeling for me... kind of like people who need to be in crisis mode and "peace time" feels odds.


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## nevermore

@Signify

Knowing the what but not the why...tell me about it. I see you're an xNTP by your signature; I have heard this is a common INTP thing or at least a lot of us have mentioned that it can be an issue. Mind you people tend to be all too quick to offer their, uh, "interpretations"...

Also, perhaps partly because of my mental health issues, my descriptions of my emotions and mental states seem so odd to people (including therapists) they're often at a loss as to what exactly it is I'm talking about, even though I've heard other people (my brother and a friend of mine) complain about similar symptoms. Usually all I can use it metaphors but that makes it seem even weirder to people. Having a lack of a diagnosis for certain issues makes it worse, but I'd imagine it's also quite bad for trans folk, since there hasn't been too much research into the condition thus far and therapists who haven't struggled with the issues themselves are often grasping at straws.

@Jennywocky you do make a lot of good points. I don't think therapists are ill-intentioned or anything; many are even very good at certain aspects of their profession, though I have got my fair share of unempathetic ones. Just often kind of inept when it comes to complex issues, which makes resorting either to medication or overly simplistic platitudes easy. It's not like I blame them, and hell knows if I would have the talent to step into their shoes, but it's a long expensive process so it's crushing when you've tried and find most of their efforts (though not all) wanting. 

It is certainly true that some people JUST need to be able to function first. It's only that some therapists don't seem to realize that functioning is sometimes only possible when you are at peace with yourself. I'm able to function in society but my problems are still significant - since I'm mostly functional though (something I am very blessed and lucky to be, don't get me wrong) they often don't see the seriousness of the issue.

Indeed people who are good at faking it and are well adjusted often suffer from this. Maybe I am good enough at appearing normal for people to not notice, or take the issues as seriously. This has its benefits of course but the "leaden lining" is still there.

You also make a good point the use of medication being more about emotional regulation as opposed to outright suppression; in all fairness this _is_ what antidepressants are supposed to do, but for some people it can go to far and for those who are struggling with emotional suppression in the first place they might not be a great idea. In my case my emotions are generally numb. My depression is less bad than it used to be, though other mental health issues still remain. It used to be that, when I WAS aware of my emotions, they were very strong, but now it's more of a calm peaceful feeling, though I still rarely have access to it.

This too is alien to me, and part of me does prefer the highs and lows of where I was _before _I sank into emotional numbness in the first place (but also before the depression). If I could have a year of the beauty of the emotions I once felt before I get old (and hey, I still have a lot of time) I'd die happy. However honestly I would gladly take weak emotions over the howling emptiness I usually have to put up with, because at least that would not be unpleasant. If the emotional range were to grow again (as in the diversity and nuance of feeling, not the "strength" per se), even if the experience of the emotion was not that overwhelming? I really don't wish for anything more...


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## Entropic

How do you know you’re not transgender?

Interesting blog post and something I have noticed myself among people I have spoken to about this. Some people are comfortable but it's definitely in varying degrees, but a lot of people, more than what may be expected, actually don't seem to care as much about their gender identity as society expects them to. It's just that it's not uncomfortable enough for them to do something about it.

Granted, most people have been women assigned at birth and I wish I could access to a greater spectrum of men assigned at birth for this, but most I've spoken to either don't care or identify with heteronormative roles and/or labels (including gender roles), or identify outside of it and some simply seem to accept it as a matter of fact more than whether it is something that is genuinely congruent with how they seem to internally experience themselves. Maybe I have just weirdly naturally gravitated towards people who have mixed feelings about gender, I don't know, but it's interesting that whenever it has been brought up as a subject never has anyone said to me "I'm totally X and I always knew". Most people are either questioning of gender roles or don't care that much or feel it doesn't always fit or don't have that high regards for their bodies. Just not unhappy enough to transition. 

This is a great quote that summarizes my experiences talking to people about this as well:



> You asked how I know I’m not trans. The short answer is…I don’t. The long[er] answer is that because of the discrimination I’ve seen trans people face throughout my lifetime, and because of the privilege afforded to cis-gendered people that I’ve directly benefited from, cis-gendered has become a sort of “neutral default” identity for me- the “easy” choice, something to stray from only if I somehow felt I had to [which I haven't felt thus far]. I don’t feel I ever chose to identify as a cis-gendered female, rather, it feels like it was taught to me and ingrained in me and I would have to actively feel uncomfortable and unsatisfied with it on a daily basis to be inspired to rebel against that and identify as anything else. So as someone who hasn’t actively and consciously thought a lot about my gender identity [yet], I end up “picking” the one that I was assigned at birth by default. I get the sense this is the experience of a lot of cis-gendered people. But the fact that I don’t feel like I ever got to consciously choose- that’s fucking sad, man. It’s a level of myself I’m not in touch with, and it’s just one of the ways that transphobia, gender binaries, and strict unyielding gender norms oppress us all, not just trans-identified people.


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## Playful Proxy

If anyone could escort me to the nearest cliff, it'd be much appreciated.


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## lolthevoidlol

Signify said:


> If anyone could escort me to the nearest cliff, it'd be much appreciated.


oh dear >.>

*puts lots of padding stuffs at the bottom of all the cliffs*

have at it!


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## Drewbie

So today I stumbled upon the information that there are in fact trans people who transition medically and not socially. Like, that is a thing people do. I am so relieved. For a long time medical transition has made me nervous because I thought it should and would always go hand in hand with socially transitioning, which is not something I have ever been compelled to pursue they way I need to pursue medically transitioning. It's a huge weight off my shoulders. I'm agender, so socially transitioning doesn't really mean much to me, I'm equally uncomfortable being identified as a man and a woman and I can't ever see myself pushing towards being recognized as one or the other. I mean, it's a bit more complicated probably than just medically transitioning and refusing to socially transition at all, but the pressure is off to _work _towards a social transition I don't desire, I can address it if or when it happens naturally as I medically transition. 

I knew people transitioned socially without transitioning medically and I've been frequenting trans spaces for the last 5 years, why did it never occur to me this was an option. :blushed: I want to lay on the floor and melt into the carpet now, my life makes so much more sense and idk how to handle that.


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## Jennywocky

Drewbie said:


> So today I stumbled upon the information that there are in fact trans people who transition medically and not socially. Like, that is a thing people do. I am so relieved. For a long time medical transition has made me nervous because I thought it should and would always go hand in hand with socially transitioning, which is not something I have ever been compelled to pursue they way I need to pursue medically transitioning. It's a huge weight off my shoulders. I'm agender, so socially transitioning doesn't really mean much to me, I'm equally uncomfortable being identified as a man and a woman and I can't ever see myself pushing towards being recognized as one or the other. I mean, it's a bit more complicated probably than just medically transitioning and refusing to socially transition at all, but the pressure is off to _work _towards a social transition I don't desire, I can address it if or when it happens naturally as I medically transition.


Over the past 5-6 years, I've met a few who have done that, although the ones I did meet did seem disturbed in some way -- mostly terrified of everything they might lose if they integrated both worlds together and avoiding social transition out of fear vs having a peace about it.

So I would be interested in seeing some stories where people did do the medical aspects and not the others and seem pretty healthy and socially functional to you. Do you have any links or info you could share on it? And do they have trouble receiving the medical treatment they hope for? Things have become more flexible nowadays, but I know the original standards of care pretty much demand a 1-2 year social transition before endorsement for a medical transition was permitted, so this would be a different pathway altogether.


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## Drewbie

Jennywocky said:


> Over the past 5-6 years, I've met a few who have done that, although the ones I did meet did seem disturbed in some way -- mostly terrified of everything they might lose if they integrated both worlds together and avoiding social transition out of fear vs having a peace about it.
> 
> So I would be interested in seeing some stories where people did do the medical aspects and not the others and seem pretty healthy and socially functional to you. Do you have any links or info you could share on it? And do they have trouble receiving the medical treatment they hope for? Things have become more flexible nowadays, but I know the original standards of care pretty much demand a 1-2 year social transition before endorsement for a medical transition was permitted, so this would be a different pathway altogether.


I wish I had links to share. I think, because of the standards of care dictating a period of social transition before allowing medical transition there are perhaps even less people who transition medically and not socially than people who transition socially and not medically. I've seen several resources for trans people who choose not to medically transition but nothing like that for people who choose instead to not socially transition. The people that I've heard of doing what I want to do I've not actually met or been able to talk to myself, it's mostly been word of mouth, someone has a friend who is doing it or someone mentioning it as simply something that _can be done_ though they're not doing it themselves. However, there are more and more informed consent clinics popping up all over the place so maybe it will become more common.

I'm not necessarily opposed to socially transitioning, it's just not something I want to pursue if I don't have to. I seek the path of least resistance and I have reasons to believe I won't be read as male even after HRT and top surgery but if it comes to the point where socially transitioning makes more sense than not than I'm open to it.


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## Jennywocky

Drewbie said:


> I wish I had links to share. I think, because of the standards of care dictating a period of social transition before allowing medical transition there are perhaps even less people who transition medically and not socially than people who transition socially and not medically. I've seen several resources for trans people who choose not to medically transition but nothing like that for people who choose instead to not socially transition. The people that I've heard of doing what I want to do I've not actually met or been able to talk to myself, it's mostly been word of mouth, someone has a friend who is doing it or someone mentioning it as simply something that _can be done_ though they're not doing it themselves. However, there are more and more informed consent clinics popping up all over the place so maybe it will become more common.


Yeah, I think "change" is the key operating concept here. For the first few decades of medical and therapeutic effort, they spent a lot of time trying to lock down what the condition was and then constructing this concrete, specific, quantifiable way to deal with it. There was basically one outcome and one path to get to that outcome, or you couldn't receive treatment. But also note how much more rigid the gender roles in society were back in that time period.

Western culture with all the influx over the last few decades has changed drastically in terms of flexibility and desired outcome. It would have been unthinkable to have the pansexuals and other permutations (you were either gay or straight), as far as preference goes; and likewise everyone was expected to be male OR female, not genderfluid, agendered, etc. Since the foundations of the binary choice have been challenged and people aren't as rigid about them (even if that basic fixation still exists) and there is more accepted overlap between genders, people are more open to self-expression and individual pathways. I can't say there is no bias left in society, obviously there is still bias practiced in many ways occupationally and otherwise; I'm simply saying our culture IS more flexible than it was back in the middle of the 20th century.


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## Playful Proxy

Whoo, let's not forget that even most Informed Consent places still require a therapist letter. That's still WPATH, ya jerkbags.


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## Jennywocky

Signify said:


> Whoo, let's not forget that even most Informed Consent places still require a therapist letter. That's still WPATH, ya jerkbags.


Well, yeah. Any place "above level" is going to follow WPATH. Which currently, I think, still typically requires RLT >= 1 year. I've seen exceptions happen, with multiple doctor permissions, depending on situations; but reputable surgeons won't operate. You can try to get accredited psychiatrists / doctorate level psychologists to vouch for you, but their reputation is at risk if they don't follow accepted practice.

A lot of people DYI hormones, though, without doctor permission, as far as hormonal changes.


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## Playful Proxy

Jennywocky said:


> Well, yeah. Any place "above level" is going to follow WPATH. Which currently, I think, still typically requires RLT >= 1 year. I've seen exceptions happen, with multiple doctor permissions, depending on situations; but reputable surgeons won't operate. You can try to get accredited psychiatrists / doctorate level psychologists to vouch for you, but their reputation is at risk if they don't follow accepted practice.
> 
> A lot of people DYI hormones, though, without doctor permission, as far as hormonal changes.


Errr...I kinda don't want to run into dvt and have to put up with a monster like that. >.< I understand a letter for surgeries, and by that time, I'd be able to get a freaking letter, but just for HRT, really? Spiro alone isn't going to kill me.


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## hauntology




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## Entropic

Signify said:


> Errr...I kinda don't want to run into dvt and have to put up with a monster like that. >.< I understand a letter for surgeries, and by that time, I'd be able to get a freaking letter, but just for HRT, really? Spiro alone isn't going to kill me.


Expect local and individual variances. In Sweden the maximum length of any investigation should take about a year as is recommended though this is apparently scratched but it's not mentioned in any official information, and at that time diagnosis should be determined and one will then begin RLT with hormones and surgery.

However, the norm is that time is mostly determined by the queue and likely also individual needs. I might extremely hopefully get HRT somewhere next year because I will do oophorectomy because I have a chronic disease that they cause. Since you cannot live without any form of hormone production, I will need some form of HRT. The clinic has kind of implied to me (though I fucking hate how I need to read between the lines) that if I have seen all members of the clinic that will do my evaluation, they can draw a preliminary analysis and still give me a diagnosis so they can send me to endo and give me testo. If it turns out they give me ERT I will start self med. Never ever in my fucking life will I inject a fucking needle with estrogen into my body. I'd rather die from osteoporosis. 

So the way I read that is that they currently likely lean towards a diagnosis but can't give me one until those requirements are fulfilled but again, it's just vagueness full with hope. I don't like that. Then better not say anything at all because now I can only think about how I might hopefully get testo after my surgery assuming I've seen the social worker and shrink within that time. 

But anyway, if that is true, it is much faster than what is normal. I was told not too long time ago that the usual time span before someone sees a speech therapist is 2 years so that's about how much time it takes on average to receive a diagnosis rather than the supposed 1 year, and I began attending the clinic just this summer and I've only been there twice. I think though, that people who live their preferred gender full time and switch early and do other changes such as name changes etc if you can do that on your own, will be strong determining factors in how early they will be willing to give you a diagnosis or not. 

Obviously, the more secure you seem to be which for example a name change implies, the more of an idea you exude that this is what you want and desire so it might help to speed up the process though I have no idea how strongly this weighs in all in all, when it comes to receiving the diagnosis.


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## Playful Proxy

ephemereality said:


> Expect local and individual variances. In Sweden the maximum length of any investigation should take about a year as is recommended though this is apparently scratched but it's not mentioned in any official information, and at that time diagnosis should be determined and one will then begin RLT with hormones and surgery.
> 
> However, the norm is that time is mostly determined by the queue and likely also individual needs. I might extremely hopefully get HRT somewhere next year because I will do oophorectomy because I have a chronic disease that they cause. Since you cannot live without any form of hormone production, I will need some form of HRT. The clinic has kind of implied to me (though I fucking hate how I need to read between the lines) that if I have seen all members of the clinic that will do my evaluation, they can draw a preliminary analysis and still give me a diagnosis so they can send me to endo and give me testo. If it turns out they give me ERT I will start self med. Never ever in my fucking life will I inject a fucking needle with estrogen into my body. I'd rather die from osteoporosis.
> 
> So the way I read that is that they currently likely lean towards a diagnosis but can't give me one until those requirements are fulfilled but again, it's just vagueness full with hope. I don't like that. Then better not say anything at all because now I can only think about how I might hopefully get testo after my surgery assuming I've seen the social worker and shrink within that time.
> 
> But anyway, if that is true, it is much faster than what is normal. I was told not too long time ago that the usual time span before someone sees a speech therapist is 2 years so that's about how much time it takes on average to receive a diagnosis rather than the supposed 1 year, and I began attending the clinic just this summer and I've only been there twice. I think though, that people who live their preferred gender full time and switch early and do other changes such as name changes etc if you can do that on your own, will be strong determining factors in how early they will be willing to give you a diagnosis or not.
> 
> Obviously, the more secure you seem to be which for example a name change implies, the more of an idea you exude that this is what you want and desire so it might help to speed up the process though I have no idea how strongly this weighs in all in all, when it comes to receiving the diagnosis.


Eh, if I'm completely honest, I'm going to confuse the crap out of therapists. As it stands, my thoughts and feelings are divided in that while I can a) 100% say I'm for HRT, the mere idea of transition sends my logical side on a death spiral (especially the social part)


----------



## Jennywocky

Signify said:


> Errr...I kinda don't want to run into dvt and have to put up with a monster like that. >.< I understand a letter for surgeries, and by that time, I'd be able to get a freaking letter, but just for HRT, really? Spiro alone isn't going to kill me.


Usually therapists end up working with endocrinologists, since therapists (vs. psychiatrists) can't prescribe. And I've found the endocrinologists without any/much experience with trans medicine to be extremely conservative in whether they'll prescribe and what they will prescribe. Even when they do prescribe, it's often a very conservative amount that needs to be ramped up after a few wasted months. I found it far easier to get scripts from GPs and nurse practitioners who had studied the field because they had a number of trans patients and were comfortable with how to medicate properly for this situation.

The thing is, the medications are pretty basic. Spiro (to block androgens) and estrodial (generic) is quite sufficient, and they're both fairly cheap compared to some meds; and then testosterone for the F2Ms. It's good to do blood panels just to make sure your levels are balanced, but it's not really that complicated nowadays. All that stuff can be done on one's own.

I think the only "caution" I've heard is about being careful with potassium intake while on spiro, and from what people say, you'd have to eat a hell of a lot of bananas to mess yourself up.


----------



## Entropic

Voice, girls how do you keep it up for longer periods? Do you get tired or did you naturally find a pitch that works for you? I haven't started testo yet so I am trying to work on my voice. I did a recording now that's about 20 min and at the beginning it sounds like it should when I pushed it down and it sounds ok, I don't sound feminine at least though I guess it doesn't sound ultra-masculine either, but after a while as I continue speaking as it's tiring and I have to figure out a way that's not and I'm seeing a therapist about it and they gave me exercises but you know the process for me is more difficult to lower my voice than raising it, I notice that I raise my pitch. I keep doing it continually but eventually it gets to the point where I speak like I sound when I don't try to lower my voice though this lowering comes quite naturally nowadays but only when I feel rested and not tired. So I still end up sounding super-feminine (to me). Frustrating as fuck. How do you not grow tired in less than 20 minutes of conversation aside not speaking at all?


----------



## Entropic

chip said:


> No one said it is selfish to not be comfortable with your body. It's selfish to get into a relationship with someone and deprive them affection.


But in the context of the discussion, you are accusing the person depriving the partner from having sex as being selfish, and since the cause of that is being uncomfortable with one's body, then the logical conclusion is that it is selfish to be uncomfortable with one's body which may result in not wanting to have sex. 

And no one is depriving anyone of affection. Sex =/= affection.


----------



## Sonny

Aya Nikopol said:


> I wanted to hear about someone who has gone through the same, but I guess that's not possible. That scares me even more.


Some friends of mine spoke about their relationship through his transition on a TV show here in Oz.

Skip to 46.14. It's short.

Transgender: Watch Online : SBS Insight


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Sonny said:


> Some friends of mine spoke about their relationship through his transition on a TV show here in Oz.
> 
> Skip to 46.14. It's short.
> 
> Transgender: Watch Online : SBS Insight


Oh my god. Thank you so much. I cannot even express my words when I saw that couple talking about their relationship (being one a female to male like my fiancée). Thank you so much!


----------



## drmiller100

chip said:


> I believe it is wrong to be with someone and deprive them of love, and I am not speaking about sex unless you were strictly talking about sexual encounters. If my husband did not want me to touch him, and did not want to touch me, I would leave him. Most human beings need touch.


I'm guessing your love language is physical touch. There are several other types. Truth for you is truth, but you do NOT speak for me with your quote, nor many other people I know well.


----------



## chip

ephemereality said:


> But in the context of the discussion, you are accusing the person depriving the partner from having sex as being selfish, and since the cause of that is being uncomfortable with one's body, then the logical conclusion is that it is selfish to be uncomfortable with one's body which may result in not wanting to have sex.
> 
> And no one is depriving anyone of affection. Sex =/= affection.


I guess the person isn't upset, then? Not at all? If I felt uncomfortable with my body so much that I could not bring myself to show any affection, even sex, I would not be with someone because I would feel guilty, I would not want to hurt someone else. It would be better to be single unless that other person would be ok with it, but I would still feel horrible. Also, there are people who exist that hate to be touched even non sexually because being in a body that makes you feel like you are on fire, and you want to get out of that state of body means that. 

I know that everyone is different, some people are ok with not being touched in relationships, which ever way but for most humans, we need some type of touch. I believe this person's SO deep down needs affection, hugs, comfort because being in that position is tormenting, it is torture. You may not know it but I know first hand what it's like. I won't say why, but I do.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

chip said:


> I guess the person isn't upset, then? Not at all? If I felt uncomfortable with my body so much that I could not bring myself to show any affection, even sex, I would not be with someone because I would feel guilty, I would not want to hurt someone else. It would be better to be single unless that other person would be ok with it, but I would still feel horrible. Also, there are people who exist that hate to be touched even non sexually because being in a body that makes you feel like you are on fire, and you want to get out of that state of body means that.
> 
> I know that everyone is different, some people are ok with not being touched in relationships, which ever way but for most humans, we need some type of touch. I believe this person's SO deep down needs affection, hugs, comfort because being in that position is tormenting, it is torture. You may not know it but I know first hand what it's like. I won't say why, but I do.


But it's because he was so uncomfortable with himself and lonely that I've taken upon myself to become his friend, things just evolved beyond that naturally because I actually care for him. I wasn't using him for his skills or because of his feelings, I actually liked him as a friend.
Touch isn't the only way to show affection, words can be very powerful as well. And now he can hug and kiss, he feels more confident now that he's close to what he wants, but I'm satisfied with just being able to express my feelings in words to him and see that smile, it means the world to me because I know he feels loved in a way he never was.

Affection is more than sex or being able to touch someone. It's how you look at person, how you talk to that person, what you do for that person.

Love is sacrifice and sometimes you must sacrifice your own needs in order to love. Of course he feels bad that I must struggle with sexual tension and the distance (he had to go home to take care of the whole process) but I don't mind the sacrifice, it's better than selfishly wanting him to do things for which he's not ready.


----------



## chip

Aya Nikopol said:


> But it's because he was so uncomfortable with himself and lonely that I've taken upon myself to become his friend, things just evolved beyond that naturally because I actually care for him. I wasn't using him for his skills or because of his feelings, I actually liked him as a friend.
> Touch isn't the only way to show affection, words can be very powerful as well. And now he can hug and kiss, he feels more confident now that he's close to what he wants, but I'm satisfied with just being able to express my feelings in words to him and see that smile, it means the world to me because I know he feels loved in a way he never was.
> 
> Affection is more than sex or being able to touch someone. It's how you look at person, how you talk to that person, what you do for that person.
> 
> Love is sacrifice and sometimes you must sacrifice your own needs in order to love. Of course he feels bad that I must struggle with sexual tension and the distance (he had to go home to take care of the whole process) but I don't mind the sacrifice, it's better than selfishly wanting him to do things for which he's not ready.



I understand what you are saying, although I do not think love should be sacrifice. There is enough sacrifice in the world already, and being that close should not be that way, like for example how your SO sacrifices basically his sanity just to live in this shitty society that claims that men have to be a certain way. 

I was assuming that he decided to be with you without telling you he did not want touch etc. I know that affection and love goes beyond sex, when my husband and I hold hands, I actually feel turned on because to me that is making love. It's not about intercourse, or oral sex or touching in a sexual manner. I guess sex plays into it for some people, yes. 

I was not trying to judge you or your SO btw. I've been with trans gender men before and it was difficult for me, and the reason I mentioned humans needing touch is because of the studies about the monkeys when they were babies, needing the touch of the mother, instead of being locked up in a cold cage without affection. I know it doesn't seem like it but I wish everyone would have a happy ending in life, or just a happy life. 

I probably seemed very black and white, for that I am sorry. It is a good thing that sexual stimulation exists, then but when I do that to myself, I feel super sad after because no one is there to hold me. I actually feel more love looking into my SO's eyes than feeling touched, especially since it's so difficult for me to lock eyes with anyone, it makes me extremely nervous. I'm sorry for calling your lover selfish, I got the wrong impression. I assumed he did not touch you or anything. My imagination runs off with me negatively too much sometimes.


----------



## Promethea

chip said:


> I believe it is wrong to be with someone and deprive them of love, and I am not speaking about sex unless you were strictly talking about sexual encounters. If my husband did not want me to touch him, and did not want to touch me, I would leave him. Most human beings need touch.


Without physical touch, the oxytocin bond will weaken and die. And yes there is a term for what happens when a person withdraws from showing affection to the person they're with, its called alienation of affection and its grounds for divorce. A relationship takes work, it doesn't just magically happen for anyone. 

I was reading a really reasonable take on all of this, alienation of affection, divorce, etc: and typically when it stagnates for someone after they stop putting in the effort, a new relationship won't cure it either in the long-run. People who do this are usually repeat-offenders and find themselves with a very long-line of failed relationships behind them while they're just waiting for that magical someone to come along. Thing is, if they looked at the issue in each relationship, they might see that its their own laziness that contributed to the end of affection (dissolved connection). 

I can understand a person not being in the mood -all the time- or going through some phase where they're depressed, but when months pass and theres no physical affection, thats negligent on their part unless there is a very good reason and they're working to fix it. It makes their s/o feel shelved, or like an old toy.


----------



## chip

Promethea said:


> Without physical touch, the oxytocin bond will weaken and die. And yes there is a term for what happens when a person withdraws from showing affection to the person they're with, its called alienation of affection and its grounds for divorce. A relationship takes work, it doesn't just magically happen for anyone.
> 
> I was reading a really reasonable take on all of this, alienation of affection, divorce, etc: and typically when it stagnates for someone after they stop putting in the effort, a new relationship won't cure it either in the long-run. People who do this are usually repeat-offenders and find themselves with a very long-line of failed relationships behind them while they're just waiting for that magical someone to come along. Thing is, if they looked at the issue in each relationship, they might see that its their own laziness that contributed to the end of affection (dissolved connection).
> 
> I can understand a person not being in the mood -all the time- or going through some phase where they're depressed, but when months pass and theres no physical affection, thats negligent on their part unless there is a very good reason and they're working to fix it. It makes their s/o feel shelved, or like an old toy.


That is what I was trying to say but less specifically, I didn't know how to put it into words. When Aya said that her SO did not touch her, I worried that it might be selfish and make Aya resent him eventually and feel hurt. I think if a person wants to withdrawal, they should take a break from relationships and find themselves first.


----------



## WamphyriThrall

chip said:


> That is what I was trying to say but less specifically, I didn't know how to put it into words. When Aya said that her SO did not touch her, I worried that it might be selfish and make Aya resent him eventually and feel hurt. I think if a person wants to withdrawal, they should take a break from relationships and find themselves first.


Unfortunately, many people either feel pressured to enter relationships, try to "run away" and find someone who can "cure" them, or find themselves committed to another before they develop that level of self-awareness. 

Another thing about transitioning is that some find their understanding of sexuality to shift as well. For example, a trans man who formerly lived as a butch lesbian might find that pansexual fits them better, either because they are free to explore that option outside of the rigid sexual binary, or their hormones make them more comfortable with their bodies.


----------



## Entropic

chip said:


> That is what I was trying to say but less specifically, I didn't know how to put it into words. When Aya said that her SO did not touch her, I worried that it might be selfish and make Aya resent him eventually and feel hurt. I think if a person wants to withdrawal, they should take a break from relationships and find themselves first.


I am fairly sure that Aya can make those judgements about herself though. If she felt that being in the relationship is not good for her because of those reasons, I assume she's mature enough to make those difficult decisions where she can sort it out that works the best for her.


----------



## chip

ephemereality said:


> I am fairly sure that Aya can make those judgements about herself though. If she felt that being in the relationship is not good for her because of those reasons, I assume she's mature enough to make those difficult decisions where she can sort it out that works the best for us.


Sure, and I am allowed to give my perspective at the same time. I'm not here to force her, stop being so defensive.


----------



## Entropic

chip said:


> Sure, and I am allowed to give my perspective at the same time. I'm not here to force her, stop being so defensive.


I am not suggesting you are forcing anything, but infantalizing her as if she can't deal with her own life and accusing her of things that's clearly not true for her is not something I have to agree with either.


----------



## chip

ephemereality said:


> I am not suggesting you are forcing anything, but infantalizing her as if she can't deal with her own life and accusing her of things that's clearly not true for her is not something I have to agree with either.


Oh god, are you serious? I never did that and I don't see her as an infant. Seriously, stop with the defensiveness, stop assuming you know what my intentions are. I made my intentions clear to her and I apologized. Did you not see that? Or are you just trying to pick a pointless fight?


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

chip said:


> That is what I was trying to say but less specifically, I didn't know how to put it into words. When Aya said that her SO did not touch her, I worried that it might be selfish and make Aya resent him eventually and feel hurt. I think if a person wants to withdrawal, they should take a break from relationships and find themselves first.


He told me not to touch him but he gave me his reasons, he lacked trust and feelings for me. He comes from a totally different culture from my own. In South Europe touch is normal friends touch each other, even people you just meet, that is not true in colder countries, like my fiancée's and I have to add the fact that he rejected his female body because he feels male. I understand him and I do not hate him for it, I think it's better this way to give me more than enough time to get used to something I always been scared of: sex.
We are not taking a break. He needs me, especially now and even more in the future to come. When there is understanding I don't think there is the need for breaks.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

chip said:


> Oh god, are you serious? I never did that and I don't see her as an infant. Seriously, stop with the defensiveness, stop assuming you know what my intentions are. I made my intentions clear to her and I apologized. Did you not see that? Or are you just trying to pick a pointless fight?


Well, she has a point... I felt like you were forcing your visions on me even though I explained my situation. It's not a normal situation and I must deal with it. What works for me doesn't work for you and that's fine, but you kept saying that I was wrong in making sacrifices. Why? I chose it this way and it is working wonderfully so far.


----------



## Entropic

Aya Nikopol said:


> Well, she has a point... I felt like you were forcing your visions on me even though I explained my situation. It's not a normal situation and I must deal with it. What works for me doesn't work for you and that's fine, but you kept saying that I was wrong in making sacrifices. Why? I chose it this way and it is working wonderfully so far.


Who is she?


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

ephemereality said:


> Who is she?


You. Sorry if I got your gender wrong.


----------



## Entropic

Aya Nikopol said:


> You. Sorry if I got your gender wrong.


Yes, you did. I'm not a transwoman.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

ephemereality said:


> Yes, you did. I'm not a transwoman.


I'm not my phone so I don't see anyone gender.
Anyway, you got it right, as I explained.


----------



## Playful Proxy

drmiller100 said:


> I've been thinking a bit about this thread.
> 
> FWIW, I've been hit on by some people who identified as trans, and I have always in the past politely passed.
> 
> Thinking about this thread, I'd like to ask a question.
> 
> I'm homophobic, or whatever enough to where I don't want to be around any other penises. But I guess if someone identifies as female, and has had an operation and for all intents and purposes is female now, I'm not really opposed to that.
> 
> And if the right person had normal female qualities I'm normally interested in I'd be willing to certainly consider the person.
> 
> So what does that make me?


It makes you heterosexual. I dunno about others here, but like it or not, I can understand the perspective of not wanting a trans woman unless she's got the actual female parts to match. I mean, you should probably understand that that particular operation has quite a bit of risk involved and could result in things going fatal. The operation isn't standardized and each doctor has their own way of doing it, so it's not something that people take lightly when they get it done. It's not something you should take lightly. She risked...a lot to get it (also hella expensive). If you are able to see her for who she is and respect her, you would be fine.


----------



## Jennywocky

Well, it depends on where you go. But then again, money is a huge factor. It's the reason that women who can afford it spend a lot of money of silicone work on butt and boobs with licensed medical practitioners and women without money will have industrial silicone injected in their ass in a back alley or at a block party and end up dying / suffering deformity. Both the APA and AMA organizations have officially supported the inclusion of trans medicine within insurance coverage (under the supervision of experienced medical professionals) back in the last decade, and the country is moving forward but the insurance companies still drag their heels despite the test cases run in San Francisco and other venues where the actual costs were far under expectations. [They cover viagra for old men who go to the doc and can't get an erection, but won't cover the basic routine medical care for people who have often passed a few years of medical screening under a few different doctors.]

A solid list of reputable doctors is not difficult to acquire online, but the cheapest, practiced, credentialed surgeons are still outside the US. The only surgeons in the US that can match their prices are typically ones you do not want to go to. Basically you have to worry about (1) maintaining nerve/orgasmic functionality, (2) not screwing up your intestinal and urinary functionality, and (3) appearance. There are some pretty terrible horror stories if you try to cut costs by going to what amounts to hacks.

As far as going... well, normally most people who go through this kind of thing in either direction are doing it for their own piece of mind, not just to be able to find a sexual/life partner. For this reason, sometimes people insist it isn't "courage" to do this, it's just preservation of one's own sanity and well-being. Which it is. But from my observations, there's still a lot of courage involved with figuring out and being oneself versus letting the world make you into something you are not and choosing to live in abject misery. We see enough people who are miserable in the world and yet refuse to change things because they don't believe in themselves enough or are too scared to face opposition, etc.


----------



## iloveusarita

Do many TSs find the word passable offensive?


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

nishanal said:


> Do many TSs find the word passable offensive?


My fiancée uses it to describe himself sometimes...


----------



## Jennywocky

nishanal said:


> Do many TSs find the word passable offensive?


Nowadays, it's kinda 50/50 and depends on the age and demographic of the person you're talking to. Some people aren't bothered by it, some are really offended. One Gen XYZ forum I'm on, there have been some pretty heated debates over it.

"Blend(ing)" is the more acceptable term, but you might even find some people who don't like that. What Gen YZ brought to the table was the idea that you shouldn't be expected to conform to any boxes at all, so passing and blending means you're expected to change who you are to fit in or that you're not really "male/female" unless you fit some social and physical image of the gender you identify with. it also suggests that one still isn't really a member of their identified gender, they just "look like one." (The reality is that there's a percentage of cisgen folks out there who get mistaken for the wrong gender sometimes, so they're not passable either, lol, but whatever.)

Personally, I'm more pragmatic and don't take offense to the terms; and my identity is female, so whatever I've done is what helps me feel comfortable with myself, although it also helps me fit in just fine.

The thing is, it comes up. When there's a transperson in the news, their ability to "blend" often determines some of the public response.


----------



## Playful Proxy

nishanal said:


> Do many TSs find the word passable offensive?


Depends on the person. When in doubt, ask them. I know, you'll hear this one a lot. Sorry. roud:


----------



## Entropic

Aya Nikopol said:


> My fiancée uses it to describe himself sometimes...


No because I only see it in relation to stereotype norms we ascribe people to socially follow. Since my desire is to be read as a cisman, it makes sense that I wish to adhere to these norms to some degree in order to feel that my identity is socially validated. Tough luck for non-TS types though, who are less concerned about fitting the more distinct heteronormative roles.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

ephemereality said:


> No because I only see it in relation to stereotype norms we ascribe people to socially follow. Since my desire is to be read as a cisman, it makes sense that I wish to adhere to these norms to some degree in order to feel that my identity is socially validated. Tough luck for non-TS types though, who are less concerned about fitting the more distinct heteronormative roles.


It's a lack for words. How should we tell people? What other words are used medically?


----------



## Entropic

Aya Nikopol said:


> It's a lack for words. How should we tell people? What other words are used medically?


What are you referring to? Tell them what?


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

ephemereality said:


> What are you referring to? Tell them what?


What he is. I know he's a man, but it's not that. People make questions, they sometimes need explaining.


----------



## Entropic

Aya Nikopol said:


> What he is. I know he's a man, but it's not that. People make questions, they sometimes need explaining.


Ah. Yeah, that's always a problem. I think it's more an issue with the public lacking knowledge and understanding though.


----------



## iloveusarita

I am a cisgendered male, but then I must say I don't get the common hatred of TSs.

To me it's like hating somebody with cancer, it's a medical condition. I think what spooks people out is the changing of gender, but then this is not arbitrary, it's obviously done via an examination and testing. 

Meh, I guess we all know humans are irrational and subjective, but then humans are innately a lot of things and it doesn't mean such traits are always justified. 

As for the passable question I asked prior, as a cisgendered person my view may not mean much, but then wouldn't a TS who is "passable" be happier, because they can thus "blend" as their true gender? I don't endorse gender roles since they're obviously subjective and culturally-based, but then we can clearly tell who is male or who is female by looking at them. Curved hips or a beard are not social constructs for females and males.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

nishanal said:


> I am a cisgendered male, but then I must say I don't get the common hatred of TSs.
> 
> To me it's like hating somebody with cancer, it's a medical condition. I think what spooks people out is the changing of gender, but then this is not arbitrary, it's obviously done via an examination and testing.
> 
> Meh, I guess we all know humans are irrational and subjective, but then humans are innately a lot of things and it doesn't mean such traits are always justified.


What I've came across with in my experience is that people don't understand why one would like to change his or her gender. It's something so complex for them they make a seven headed monster out of it.
Before I was with my fiancée (who's transgendered female to male) I was with another guy to whom I tried to explain the situation because he was getting envious of him. I explain that I had to support this friend because he's going through something very hard and that will make him better and his answer was 'she is such a pretty girl why change?'
He was unfamiliar with the concept of 'this body is not mine' and, like many people, thought that being pretty or being told so is enough to like yourself.

The process is complex, yes, but the thought behind it is so simple. For people is easier to understand why you change your face to be the person who desire than to chance your gender.

I'm no stranger to commentaries about my gender ('you are a man in a woman's body lel') and why is that normal (some people actually implied that I should change) and the actual change isn't?

Well, I've give you my 2 cents about this.


----------



## bunnyfun

You go girl, be the best you can, I cross dress, little late in life to be the real girl that would be our dream, however, I am happy where I am in my life. being sexy whenever I can.. carry on.. do the right thing.


----------



## bunnyfun

proud of ya girl, I am a cross dresser that thinks about being a real girl, but started late in life..not really an option at this point..but I get sexy whenever I can. keep going...


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

bunnyfun said:


> proud of ya girl, I am a cross dresser that thinks about being a real girl, but started late in life..not really an option at this point..but I get sexy whenever I can. keep going...


If you want to be a real girl, be it. I heard of men in their 40s getting a sex change operation.


----------



## Entropic

Aya Nikopol said:


> What I've came across with in my experience is that people don't understand why one would like to change his or her gender. It's something so complex for them they make a seven headed monster out of it.
> Before I was with my fiancée (who's transgendered female to male) I was with another guy to whom I tried to explain the situation because he was getting envious of him. I explain that I had to support this friend because he's going through something very hard and that will make him better and his answer was 'she is such a pretty girl why change?'
> He was unfamiliar with the concept of 'this body is not mine' and, like many people, thought that being pretty or being told so is enough to like yourself.
> 
> The process is complex, yes, but the thought behind it is so simple. For people is easier to understand why you change your face to be the person who desire than to chance your gender.
> 
> I'm no stranger to commentaries about my gender ('you are a man in a woman's body lel') and why is that normal (some people actually implied that I should change) and the actual change isn't?
> 
> Well, I've give you my 2 cents about this.


I know this is nitpicking, but eeh, I can't help it to a degree because I think it's important to think about how we use and conceptualize gender through the use of language.

I think it's important to remember that we TS people, we aren't changing our gender. We are making our body or external cues match the gender we feel we are. To an outsider yes, it looks like we are changing, but we're not. I think that's a bit of the problem itself. People who think TS change gender do so because they think man >>> woman or some such, but it's not. It's woman >>> woman. They innately assume that the person feels like a man who wants to become a woman. That's not how it works, and I'm not implying you are Aya, just speaking about it in broad strokes here. 

That's why Swedes use the term gender correction or könskorrigering, rather than gender change. The external gender (body etc) is corrected to match one's internal sense of gender. Makes more sense, no? I think so anyway. Sounds better than suggesting I am changing from man to woman or something like that. How can I change something I already am?


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

ephemereality said:


> I know this is nitpicking, but eeh, I can't help it to a degree because I think it's important to think about how we use and conceptualize gender through the use of language.
> 
> I think it's important to remember that we TS people, we aren't changing our gender. We are making our body or external cues match the gender we feel we are. To an outsider yes, it looks like we are changing, but we're not. I think that's a bit of the problem itself. People who think TS change gender do so because they think man >>> woman or some such, but it's not. It's woman >>> woman. They innately assume that the person feels like a man who wants to become a woman. That's not how it works, and I'm not implying you are Aya, just speaking about it in broad strokes here.
> 
> That's why Swedes use the term gender correction or könskorrigering, rather than gender change. The external gender (body etc) is corrected to match one's internal sense of gender. Makes more sense, no? I think so anyway. Sounds better than suggesting I am changing from man to woman or something like that. How can I change something I already am?


Portuguese doesn't have two different words, thus my confusions.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Aya Nikopol said:


> If you want to be a real girl, be it. I heard of men in their 40s getting a sex change operation.


My professor was in her 50s and paralyzed from the waist down when she transitioned. Her wife divorced her, but luckily her college aged kids accepted everything very smoothly. School board wasn't thrilled with her either. She was and is very brave.


----------



## Playful Proxy

*sigh*, I know I'm just a little bystander watching all this, but when you're talking about someone who got SRS, been on HRT for years, and changed their legal name and legal marker, I'm fairly certain that using, "she" is the appropriate pronoun. T.T Especially when you're aware that they went through all of it. While I know that I'm nowhere near any of those milestones, if you're to stick around in my life, you'll learn to properly address others accuretely far before I do.


----------



## jeb

@ephemereality, congrats! Was it like a tickle in your throat that kind of made you feel like you need to cough?


----------



## Jennywocky

ephemereality said:


> Voice has begun dropping. It happened a lot earlier than expected. About a week ago I experienced this weird sensation in my throat but I dismissed it as irrelevant because I thought it was way too early for something to happen. I was wrong either way. I have had problems speaking for about a week now and yesterday I was really sore. Feels better today. Heard this happens to some but not all. Overall it has dropped a little though it feels very unreliable when I speak like I can't predict what sounds will come out of my mouth at all. So sometimes I sound at least satisfyingly boyish/masculine without trying to drop my voice (I can't anymore, for the matter) and sometimes I seem to fall back to what sounds a bit like my old natural pitch. Overall my voice sounds darker and what appears to be with greater resonance than before. More breathy or how to put it. I feel quite satisfied and I hope that resonance will stay because it sounds so good.
> 
> And finally the damn horniness is beginning to recede. I still feel it bit it's nowhere near as crazy as it was compared to the first week.
> 
> Other than that I've begun to do slow exercise routines and I am definitely noticing a difference in strength though perhaps not so much in tone. My body feels stiffer.


Glad to hear you're having some results. I found it all to be a pretty magical experience.

Man, I moved yesterday. I got four guys from my RPG group to help me out (they're all younger, probably around 30), and I am so glad they helped me out. They pretty much took over, packed the van for me, carried most of the stuff, and just left me to direct where things went. It was also pretty funny, that the one guy who showed up first helped me load a few things; but as soon as guy #2 got there, they started making jokes about women and navigation and moving things... I was like, "Wow, so it begins already!" None of them know I'm trans, and it all still feels odd and new at times to relegated to a certain function in a situation (like moving) that is typically defined by gender. I have little socialization in "support roles" and feel like I'm still feeling out what I should be doing in a situation like that; you know, you're kind of like a young girl without an older woman to learn from but an adult so everyone expects you to already know these kinds of things....

I've moved about six times in the last six years and did much of it myself, but at this point I just don't have the muscle mass anymore to do it. It's pretty amazing what estrogen (and highly reduced T) does in terms of muscle and body shaping. These guys were pretty effortlessly carrying big things around I used to be able to carry -- even the guys smaller than me -- and I just can't do it. On one hand, it was nice to have all these guys handle all these chores since I'm out of shape and tired nowadays, but I also feel far more dependent on others than I used to be since I just can't do it myself.


----------



## Entropic

jeb713 said:


> @ephemereality, congrats! Was it like a tickle in your throat that kind of made you feel like you need to cough?


Nope. It was more like it was expanded? Incredibly difficult to put into words. I didn't need to clear my throat or cough, but instead it felt like my throat was kind of blown up with air like a balloon from the inside like I've been exposed to some gas or something, like being stretched out or such. It felt a little like if you yawn, because it enlarges the stuff in your throat temporarily, except it was more of a constant feeling. It was only the past days or so when I began noticing a soreness or tenderness also which made me feel like I don't want to speak much. Felt like having a cold except I know I'm not ill. So right now I'm chugging sweets to help out.

Not sure if you are aware but I did voice exercises before I began starting T to learn to speak with a lower voice but I haven't been able to do that much the past week at all and right now it's impossible because it puts so much strain on it. I didn't even notice it much myself that I stopped doing it because that tone became so natural to me over time, until I noticed it on my recordings. Soreness is worse in the evening also. 



Jennywocky said:


> Glad to hear you're having some results. I found it all to be a pretty magical experience.
> 
> Man, I moved yesterday. I got four guys from my RPG group to help me out (they're all younger, probably around 30), and I am so glad they helped me out. They pretty much took over, packed the van for me, carried most of the stuff, and just left me to direct where things went. It was also pretty funny, that the one guy who showed up first helped me load a few things; but as soon as guy #2 got there, they started making jokes about women and navigation and moving things... I was like, "Wow, so it begins already!" None of them know I'm trans, and it all still feels odd and new at times to relegated to a certain function in a situation (like moving) that is typically defined by gender. I have little socialization in "support roles" and feel like I'm still feeling out what I should be doing in a situation like that; you know, you're kind of like a young girl without an older woman to learn from but an adult so everyone expects you to already know these kinds of things....
> 
> I've moved about six times in the last six years and did much of it myself, but at this point I just don't have the muscle mass anymore to do it. It's pretty amazing what estrogen (and highly reduced T) does in terms of muscle and body shaping. These guys were pretty effortlessly carrying big things around I used to be able to carry -- even the guys smaller than me -- and I just can't do it. On one hand, it was nice to have all these guys handle all these chores since I'm out of shape and tired nowadays, but I also feel far more dependent on others than I used to be since I just can't do it myself.


Yeah, funny. I've always been a very weak and frail person (though I guess I have to suit myself for never really working out much) and even when I am expected to carry the load even normal people can carry, people around me realized I can't even carry what even my other family members can carry so I get to carry all the shit stuff like small flowers etc lol. As an example, previously I found it difficult to carry the cat carrier with both my cats in it in one hand for any longer period of time, and my cats are not particularly heavy at all. They weight around 10 pounds or so in total. My ESTP cousin who is female has no problem at all, but she also has a bit of a different body type than me. Greater bone structure. If my metabolism hadn't dropped after I left my teenage years I would still likely look like a rake. Not that I would mind to be honest. Rather that than feminine curves. 

So we'll see how much more strength I'll actually gain haha. I doubt I'll ever be a very strong person.


----------



## Entropic

Wow this is my voice after 15 days: 
Vocaroo | Voice message

I'm impressed. I feel very croaky and hoarse today so chances are that this was just a very early initial drop and more weeks of annoying soreness are incoming.
@Jennywocky you might be especially interested since I sent you some files long time ago before t.


----------



## Playful Proxy

ephemereality said:


> Wow this is my voice after 15 days:
> Vocaroo | Voice message
> 
> I'm impressed. I feel very croaky and hoarse today so chances are that this was just a very early initial drop and more weeks of annoying soreness are incoming.
> 
> @_Jennywocky_ you might be especially interested since I sent you some files long time ago before t.


If that's your voice in the initial stages, you gunna be just fine. There were a couple inflection points that bounced a little high, but for just starting on T? You're going to get a plenty-deep voice.


----------



## Entropic

Signify said:


> If that's your voice in the initial stages, you gunna be just fine. There were a couple inflection points that bounced a little high, but for just starting on T? You're going to get a plenty-deep voice.


Yeah, I still have poor control over my voice and it tends to rise on its own sometimes without me being aware. And I hope so too especially since I actually ranged in the very high range in terms of herz before T. I was measured around 180-190 and that was when I tried to lower my voice! Granted, my voice has always had this very odd resonance to it that never made it sound super-feminine thank god, but regardless. 

The best thing though is that most of my dysphoria concerning my voice is gone. I actually dare to speak to random people in public now but I couldn't before because I was so afraid my voice would give me away, and I've always had dysphoria around my voice since my teens when I realized that hey, it actually sounds like a girl's voice and not a guy's. I can actually appreciate my own voice now in a way I couldn't before.


----------



## Playful Proxy

ephemereality said:


> Yeah, I still have poor control over my voice and it tends to rise on its own sometimes without me being aware. And I hope so too especially since I actually ranged in the very high range in terms of herz before T. I was measured around 180-190 and that was when I tried to lower my voice! Granted, my voice has always had this very odd resonance to it that never made it sound super-feminine thank god, but regardless.
> 
> The best thing though is that most of my dysphoria concerning my voice is gone. I actually dare to speak to random people in public now but I couldn't before because I was so afraid my voice would give me away, and I've always had dysphoria around my voice since my teens when I realized that hey, it actually sounds like a girl's voice and not a guy's. I can actually appreciate my own voice now in a way I couldn't before.


So your voice started super high? Wanna trade? I've got one that could probably put some blues singers to shame. (For totes, I'm totally not procrastinating trying to work with that evil demon)


----------



## Jennywocky

ephemereality said:


> Wow this is my voice after 15 days:
> Vocaroo | Voice message
> 
> I'm impressed. I feel very croaky and hoarse today so chances are that this was just a very early initial drop and more weeks of annoying soreness are incoming.
> 
> @Jennywocky you might be especially interested since I sent you some files long time ago before t.


I went back and listened to the old one and can hear a difference. Which after two weeks is impressive. Just think what it'll be like after six months.


----------



## Jennywocky

Signify said:


> So your voice started super high? Wanna trade? I've got one that could probably put some blues singers to shame. (For totes, I'm totally not procrastinating trying to work with that evil demon)


Yes it disappointed me that a biological exchange program could not be instituted...


----------



## Entropic

Signify said:


> So your voice started super high? Wanna trade? I've got one that could probably put some blues singers to shame. (For totes, I'm totally not procrastinating trying to work with that evil demon)


In terms of herz yes, though I don't think it sounded that high-pitched because of my masculine speech pattern and odd resonance.



Jennywocky said:


> Yes it disappointed me that a biological exchange program could not be instituted...


Same. It would be nice to be able to trade body parts sometimes. I hope that perhaps it will be possible to grow some stuff i.e. penises in a lab in the future though. Would be ten times better than having a transplantation made of skin from elsewhere of your body. My biggest grip with current phalloplasty is lack of natural erection, really.


----------



## Entropic

@Aya Nikopol

Brief update today. Nothing new has happened but I think it might take a while now. I wonder if it's begun to grow down there because it feels a little different but difficult to say with certainty. 

Other than that, I have to say that taking testo is one of the best things that could have happened to my brain. This feeling of clicking and how right it feels is amazing. I was briefly considering what would happen if I were to get off it even temporarily and the idea is almost impossible to conceive. I know that I have to before my surgeries though. I feel really conflicted but if I take injections by then it might transition more smoothly than if I were to stop taking gel.

The biggest change in my personality is that I have overall become more aggressive. I sometimes get very weird random anger outbursts for things that seem insignificant, and I feel a lot more sexually aggressive. I also still experience that I think a bit more black and white about things, though I definitely can report that I don't feel less emotional. If anything I experience that when I feel emotion I experience it more intensely than before. 

Overall I don't think my personality has changed much though because these changes were already occurring pre-T because working on my transition made me feel a lot better with myself and my life, but T definitely kind of finalized that.


----------



## Playful Proxy

I'll never be able to figure out how E manages to make trans girls more emotional (or at least feel them more intensely), but T doesn't have an inverse effect on the guys. What kind of black magic is this? I've heard from multiple FTM's that is the case, but T vs E on a trans girl is like a night and day difference (at least from what I've seen). Mind you, I'm primarily doing this as a 3rd party spectator either directly asking them questions, or just observing actions before/after and comparing.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

ephemereality said:


> @Aya Nikopol
> 
> Brief update today. Nothing new has happened but I think it might take a while now. I wonder if it's begun to grow down there because it feels a little different but difficult to say with certainty.
> 
> Other than that, I have to say that taking testo is one of the best things that could have happened to my brain. This feeling of clicking and how right it feels is amazing. I was briefly considering what would happen if I were to get off it even temporarily and the idea is almost impossible to conceive. I know that I have to before my surgeries though. I feel really conflicted but if I take injections by then it might transition more smoothly than if I were to stop taking gel.
> 
> The biggest change in my personality is that I have overall become more aggressive. I sometimes get very weird random anger outbursts for things that seem insignificant, and I feel a lot more sexually aggressive. I also still experience that I think a bit more black and white about things, though I definitely can report that I don't feel less emotional. If anything I experience that when I feel emotion I experience it more intensely than before.
> 
> Overall I don't think my personality has changed much though because these changes were already occurring pre-T because working on my transition made me feel a lot better with myself and my life, but T definitely kind of finalized that.


Thanks for the update!

I wonder if the anger attacks aren't because the body isn't used to the hormones. My two best male friends are the most gentle things in the world and their bodies work correctly.
Men are more sexually active, which is normal. I wonder if I will do become more sexually active when I get nearby him when he starts taking them. My sex drive is very low and I've read that women get more active when they 'smell' the hormones from a male that falls under their preference.

The personality change was what worries the most and knowing that will only become more aggressive and horny puts my heart at rest.
I've fell in love with this very unique personality and it would be scary to have it changed. That's why I think it's dangerous to read on this on the internet. There is a lot of conflicting information.

Thanks again!


----------



## Entropic

Signify said:


> I'll never be able to figure out how E manages to make trans girls more emotional (or at least feel them more intensely), but T doesn't have an inverse effect on the guys. What kind of black magic is this? I've heard from multiple FTM's that is the case, but T vs E on a trans girl is like a night and day difference (at least from what I've seen). Mind you, I'm primarily doing this as a 3rd party spectator either directly asking them questions, or just observing actions before/after and comparing.


I think there is a lot of placebo and forer effects involved, especially when it comes to psychology/personality observations. Some transguys report becoming more logical for example and the days before I started taking T I was thinking about that and I couldn't wrap my mind about it. Me, _more_ logical? I can't even lol. 

One thing I have noticed though curiously, is that _a lot_ of transwomen are actually feelers. Seems to be more common than thinkers. Same seems to hold somewhat true in reverse for transmen. I am not sure if that, would one look for cognitive function explanations, could explain something about it but just a thought.

Ultimately however, I think people tend to simply just embrace more of their respective gender stereotypes they identify with. As I wrote, it's not like I just turned from a phlegmatic person to violent and aggressive over night. I always had that tendency and it's been developing for the past 6 months but taking T just made it a bit more pronounced. So if there's anything that's going to happen cognitively, I think it's that, personally. T or E will simply emphasize traits in either direction you already have and allow yourself to indulge in more. Suddenly it's ok for a transwoman to not appear logical anymore and that mental relaxation can by itself simply make you feel more "irrational" or whatever.


----------



## Entropic

Aya Nikopol said:


> Thanks for the update!
> 
> I wonder if the anger attacks aren't because the body isn't used to the hormones. My two best male friends are the most gentle things in the world and their bodies work correctly.
> Men are more sexually active, which is normal. I wonder if I will do become more sexually active when I get nearby him when he starts taking them. My sex drive is very low and I've read that women get more active when they 'smell' the hormones from a male that falls under their preference.
> 
> The personality change was what worries the most and knowing that will only become more aggressive and horny puts my heart at rest.
> I've fell in love with this very unique personality and it would be scary to have it changed. That's why I think it's dangerous to read on this on the internet. There is a lot of conflicting information.
> 
> Thanks again!


No problem, I figured you would find it useful  I find that my changes have settled pretty much now, as in that my body is finally beginning to stabilize, hence I thought it might be useful for you to know. 

And while I can't speak for all transmen or your SO, if he's anything like me at all those are likely the changes you can expect to be the most obvious anyway.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

ephemereality said:


> No problem, I figured you would find it useful  I find that my changes have settled pretty much now, as in that my body is finally beginning to stabilize, hence I thought it might be useful for you to know.
> 
> And while I can't speak for all transmen or your SO, if he's anything like me at all those are likely the changes you can expect to be the most obvious anyway.


It's always more reassuring to know someone's actual experience than reading online and seeing stuff that makes you truly scared, like reports of FtM becoming violent or having a completely different personality after the hormones.
Hearing your experience makes my heart truly rest because I don't think the change will be that big. He looks female but his personality is very male (logical, doesn't like to show feelings too much, aggressiveness though he's not violent), he's an INTP so... XD


----------



## Playful Proxy

Yeah, there are some scare stories running around online about HRT effects. I think I"ve read in a couple of places that starting E puts you in an emotional state equivalent to that of a teenage girl. Err, I've seen some people react with emotions exceeding the threshold of what I'd personally expect (ratio of how intense the emotion should be given the stimuli which caused it), but I don't know if I'd take it THAT far.

Example: If external stimuli has 5 units of emotionality attached to it and the emotional reaction of the person is about 7 units, that's a 5:7 ratio, which isn't bad. People react a bit differently to different stimuli, but to see someone burst into tears after hearing someone say their dog died? That's like a 5:25 ratio. Something else has gotta be going down internally for stuff like that to happen, and if not, I'd just be clueless on how to react.


----------



## Flatlander

Signify said:


> I'll never be able to figure out how E manages to make trans girls more emotional (or at least feel them more intensely), but T doesn't have an inverse effect on the guys. What kind of black magic is this? I've heard from multiple FTM's that is the case,


What, really? Why should testosterone be inverse from estrogen? Or what did you mean by that?

My estrogen levels were always pretty low as a biological female; I almost never got mood or emotional swings from my own biology directly. It's hard to explain, but I felt like I lacked drive, and that could really bother me because I also knew I _had_ drive and it was locked away. 

Taking testosterone has brought about what I lacked in that department and now I feel more of the depth of my emotional compass than I did. I get more easily frustrated or feel more aggressive, but it also means I feel more of my own power and force, and I love the hell out of that aspect of my transition.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Flatlander said:


> What, really? Why should testosterone be inverse from estrogen? Or what did you mean by that?


Only reason I said opposite is that I figured that if trans women felt more emotional on E, I assumed going on T would have an inverse reaction, thus opposites, I suppose. 



Flatlander said:


> My estrogen levels were always pretty low as a biological female; I almost never got mood or emotional swings from my own biology directly. It's hard to explain, but I felt like I lacked drive, and that could really bother me because I also knew I _had_ drive and it was locked away.


I'm similar with emotional intensity as you were with drive. I feel emotions there, but it's like there's a thick blanket blocking them. They never feel intense, it's just lots of apathy with a small hint of whatever emotion happens to be there. It's enough to recognize which one it is, but I occasionally will have moments where I can't help but go, "I should feel really happy right now. I feel kinda happy, but why not more? There's no reason to NOT feel that happy, and wouldn't someone in my position feel happiness more intensely?"


----------



## Flatlander

Signify said:


> Only reason I said opposite is that I figured that if trans women felt more emotional on E, I assumed going on T would have an inverse reaction, thus opposites, I suppose.


Fair, it's just that hormones are more diverse than that. There's something about definition through prevalent estrogen vs testosterone which mimicks the concept of yin and yang, but it isn't strictly limited to have and lack - aside from body structure and function, each plays its part to evoke a different kind of mindset and, as some would put it, 'energy' - neither, in its own right, leads a person to lack emotion.



> I'm similar with emotional intensity as you were with drive. I feel emotions there, but it's like there's a thick blanket blocking them. They never feel intense, it's just lots of apathy with a small hint of whatever emotion happens to be there. It's enough to recognize which one it is, but I occasionally will have moments where I can't help but go, "I should feel really happy right now. I feel kinda happy, but why not more? There's no reason to NOT feel that happy, and wouldn't someone in my position feel happiness more intensely?"


You aren't on hormones yet, then, I take it. I'm sorry if you posted about it, I haven't really been keeping up - but I can verify that it's something to look forward to. And sometimes struggle with, since it can be rather like going through your _real_ adolescence.


----------



## Entropic

I want to point out that female hormones also come in pairs being estradiol and progesterone respectively, with estradiol mimicking and being quite similar to testosterone. It's the progesterone that is really the source of what people would typically attribute to as typical "female traits" rather than estradiol which is the actual estrogen. Estradiol can for example increase sex drive but progesterone not. Transwomen can take both hormones since they are as important to the endocrine system because if you have too much of either you will experience hormonal imbalance with the effects that causes though this is oddly downplayed; likely because there's the underlying assumption that transwomen don't need progesterone because of the role it plays in the female cycle which transwomen don't have, but people usually only focus on the estrogen-aspect when talking about it since it's what is typically assumed opposite of testosterone. Unfortunate since there are transwomen who also take progesterone and experience better effects when starting with HRT.

I assume it's the same kind of intellectual laziness that has made it so that many transmen colloquially refer to all types of SRS that removes the internal sex organs as hysterectomy, even though hysterectomy is really just the removal of the uterus and possibly cervix. I see this a lot where people say "I want hystro" in reference to thinking that hysterectomy alone will reduce their current hormonal levels or have some kind of impact on their endocrine system but it won't as long as the ovaries and fallopian tubes are left intact.


----------



## Entropic

And oh yeah, @Aya Nikopol I wish there were more cases like mine pre-HRT (I seem to be pretty unique according to Google which is kind of frustrating), but keep in mind that my changes may occur faster or at a different rate compared to the average person because of my specific health situation pre-T. It might also be that the changes that will happen to your SO will take a lot longer, depending a bit on how he chooses to medicate himself (gel, cream, plaster or injections). You may therefore perhaps barely notice any changes in personality at all like the ones I report.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

ephemereality said:


> And oh yeah, @Aya Nikopol I wish there were more cases like mine pre-HRT (I seem to be pretty unique according to Google which is kind of frustrating), but keep in mind that my changes may occur faster or at a different rate compared to the average person because of my specific health situation pre-T. It might also be that the changes that will happen to your SO will take a lot longer, depending a bit on how he chooses to medicate himself (gel, cream, plaster or injections). You may therefore perhaps barely notice any changes in personality at all like the ones I report.


I'll have to wait to see, though I suspect that he'll take the option that gives him faster changes. He's frustrated by things that take too long to show results.


----------



## Entropic

Aya Nikopol said:


> I'll have to wait to see, though I suspect that he'll take the option that gives him faster changes. He's frustrated by things that take too long to show results.


Yeah, I think all of us feel that. There is only one person I've run into thus far that was happy with the current pacing of the way the system is like over here where it can take several years to even get hormones, depending on how (un)lucky you are.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

ephemereality said:


> Yeah, I think all of us feel that. There is only one person I've run into thus far that was happy with the current pacing of the way the system is like over here where it can take several years to even get hormones, depending on how (un)lucky you are.


He's aware, gladly. He has read about it and has a friend who has gone through the progress who is helping him greatly. I keep him posted about the things I read here too, showing the posts and such. He's well informed gladly.
I don't want it to take very long though I know it will. I'm glad that I'm on my early 20s, honestly. I'll always be able to keep up with his energy.


----------



## nevermore

Signify said:


> I'll never be able to figure out how E manages to make trans girls more emotional (or at least feel them more intensely), but T doesn't have an inverse effect on the guys. What kind of black magic is this? I've heard from multiple FTM's that is the case, but T vs E on a trans girl is like a night and day difference (at least from what I've seen). Mind you, I'm primarily doing this as a 3rd party spectator either directly asking them questions, or just observing actions before/after and comparing.


That may depend on how sensitive the trans girl was to emotions in the first place (ie before taking estrogen). It could be for the same reason that swollen breast buds don't reverse after one gains weight or takes estrogen. The organ has been swollen in the first place.

Yes, I'm pulling this out of my ass, but I am kind of obsessed with healing the blunted emotions I've suffered for quite a while. I wish people would discuss the subject more, but there doesn't seem to be much research on it. I think it's a little strange personally. It seems to me as if psychiatry would rather block out emotions when there is a problem as opposed to trying to heal them (ie, bring them into a healthy and balanced state).

Also, if one loses emotions due to trauma, one can still speak the language, even if one does not feel them as intensely. At least that has been the case for me. If testosterone _does _blunt them for trans men (and I have heard a few say that it does, though they may be in the minority) this may be what you are seeing.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Flatlander said:


> Fair, it's just that hormones are more diverse than that. There's something about definition through prevalent estrogen vs testosterone which mimicks the concept of yin and yang, but it isn't strictly limited to have and lack - aside from body structure and function, each plays its part to evoke a different kind of mindset and, as some would put it, 'energy' - neither, in its own right, leads a person to lack emotion.


What do you mean by energy? 



Flatlander said:


> You aren't on hormones yet, then, I take it. I'm sorry if you posted about it, I haven't really been keeping up - but I can verify that it's something to look forward to. And sometimes struggle with, since it can be rather like going through your _real_ adolescence.


I fairly recently just got my letter to start so I can technically make 2 phone calls and possibly be on in a week, but after realizing how close I was to it, I kinda am panicked and am trying to evaluate if it's really what I need to do. Buuuut, I'll not continue with that soap box...


----------



## Flatlander

Signify said:


> What do you mean by energy?


The nature and 'feel' of a person's presence. That thing that some people have an easier time reading than others.



> I fairly recently just got my letter to start so I can technically make 2 phone calls and possibly be on in a week, but after realizing how close I was to it, I kinda am panicked and am trying to evaluate if it's really what I need to do. Buuuut, I'll not continue with that soap box...


Congratulations.

What led you to seek it in the first place? What did you discover in the theraputic process to attain the letter (if there was one)?


----------



## Entropic

nevermore said:


> That may depend on how sensitive the trans girl was to emotions in the first place (ie before taking estrogen). It could be for the same reason that swollen breast buds don't reverse after one gains weight or takes estrogen. The organ has been swollen in the first place.
> 
> Yes, I'm pulling this out of my ass, but I am kind of obsessed with healing the blunted emotions I've suffered for quite a while. I wish people would discuss the subject more, but there doesn't seem to be much research on it. I think it's a little strange personally. It seems to me as if psychiatry would rather block out emotions when there is a problem as opposed to trying to heal them (ie, bring them into a healthy and balanced state).
> 
> Also, if one loses emotions due to trauma, one can still speak the language, even if one does not feel them as intensely. At least that has been the case for me. If testosterone _does _blunt them for trans men (and I have heard a few say that it does, though they may be in the minority) this may be what you are seeing.


Could you clarify what you are trying to say? Do you mean that the reason why some transmen report becoming more distanced to their emotions has to do with that they simply talk less about emotions and emotional trauma and the cause isn't so much T but that they simply do not choose to engage as much in their emotions anymore due to stereotypes/whatever as a result of taking T because they finally feel they can make their full social transition?


----------



## Jennywocky

ephemereality said:


> I want to point out that female hormones also come in pairs being estradiol and progesterone respectively, with estradiol mimicking and being quite similar to testosterone. It's the progesterone that is really the source of what people would typically attribute to as typical "female traits" rather than estradiol which is the actual estrogen. Estradiol can for example increase sex drive but progesterone not. Transwomen can take both hormones since they are as important to the endocrine system because if you have too much of either you will experience hormonal imbalance with the effects that causes though this is oddly downplayed; likely because there's the underlying assumption that transwomen don't need progesterone because of the role it plays in the female cycle which transwomen don't have, but people usually only focus on the estrogen-aspect when talking about it since it's what is typically assumed opposite of testosterone. Unfortunate since there are transwomen who also take progesterone and experience better effects when starting with HRT.


The benefits of progesterone are still debatable. Typically the levels are highest when a woman is pregnant, which isn't a "normal state" for the average female. In any case, I see some people on support forums rave about it, and the same amount said it did nothing. Some claim to have better breast growth, others say it did nothing. And even the doctors can't agree; none of mine thought it worth taking based on their medical understanding and experience with patients. 

I did personally take it for a few months and had no noticeable benefit.


----------



## nevermore

ephemereality said:


> Could you clarify what you are trying to say? Do you mean that the reason why some transmen report becoming more distanced to their emotions has to do with that they simply talk less about emotions and emotional trauma and the cause isn't so much T but that they simply do not choose to engage as much in their emotions anymore due to stereotypes/whatever as a result of taking T because they finally feel they can make their full social transition?


I strongly suspect that's at least a part of it, though that wasn't exactly what I was trying to say. (I was trying to say multiple things actually, and only the last paragraph adressed transmen directly. Forgive me; I'm a P and directed conversation is not my strong suit :wink

Mostly I was saying that even_ if _T does blunt emotions for transmen (something I can't say for certain; I have no first hand experience and cannot assert or deny that it does), one would still be able to talk about feelings expressively, and would even experience them differently from those cismen who suffer blunted emotions. Because one is aware of how they would be percieved if one was more sensitive to them.

I know people who are very unsensitive (both by their own admission and outwardly) and they don't understand "feelings talk" when I go into it. It's possible that I'm just talking about the sorts of emotions that I can still feel strongly, but to a degree I am only able to do this because I am able to pull from the past. The thing is, I don't experience the same range of emotions as richly as I used to - some I don't experience anymore at all. But I can talk about them from experience with a lot of precision. I suggested that this might have been the cause of the greater emotionality in transmen that Signify reported.

I also think it is likely that _part_ of the magnified/blunted emotions of trans people could be the placebo effect. I could be an unsual example, but there was a time in my life (even though I still suffered from blunted emotions to a lesser degree) when I could cry at will. Many trans women say this is something that was very hard for them before estrogen, and yet it was no trouble for me at all.

But it _is _hard for me now. And do you know why? Because I stopped trying, and let myself do it less. I wasn't that social before, and I didn't care about what other people thought of me. But when I started to recover from a state of being depressed and antisocial, I had to conform to a degree to rejoin the world. Part of that is conforming, however grudgingly to gender roles.

And that impacted what I could do. Once I stopped being used to it, it was harder for me to pull on the levers that brought on the tears. I still do cry, but much, much less often.

Honestly I suspect that hormones _do _make a difference, but part of it is still oppurtunity and will. Once you transition, there is more social pressure to act a certain way, but hormones exacerbate the effects. You're allowed to let your feminine/masculine presentation out constantly instead of on occasion, or in a muted way.

I am sorry if I've rambled; I do that a lot. The issue of blunted emotions is something that's important to me personally; honestly, I could say a lot _more_. They resulted from something that happened to me when I was younger, so I've dealt with them for a while.

(Just to give a little background as to why I'm here, for a couple of years now I've wondered about whether estrogen would work as a possible last resort solution for me; you'll see I talked about it earlier in the thread. I don't know if what I'm suffering has anything to do with hormones at all, of course; it certainly wasn't caused by them. At most I think they might just make it worse and more difficult to fight. Still, this has been in my mind as a possibility for a long while.)

Anyway, I hope this has at least clarified a part of what I was trying to say.


----------



## Jennywocky

Aya Nikopol said:


> I wonder if the anger attacks aren't because the body isn't used to the hormones. My two best male friends are the most gentle things in the world and their bodies work correctly.


I think there is some truth to that. I think when you switch over, you might experience some things that cisgens experience much younger and work through it. 

The reality is that testosterone can increase sex drive, for example; but guys typically adjust to it and learn to channel/control that energy in positive ways. I think when you get hit by it later, you have to go through the same adjustment process and simply learn how to deal.

I've had some adjustments on estrogen that I've had to learn how to deal with and now I seem "fine" although I can't quite remember my state beforehand. I had some unexpected emotions, for example; I felt like estrogen connected my emotional state to my body very directly rather than having it be so detachable. I can get weepy when I'm tired or even when I just haven't eaten and my blood sugar has dropped; sometimes I even have mood swings attached where I'll wig out a little, get paranoid, etc. That never happened before. So I needed an adjustment period to recognize what was happening, then learn to preempt the situation and/or deal with it when it occurred.



ephemereality said:


> Ultimately however, I think people tend to simply just embrace more of their respective gender stereotypes they identify with. As I wrote, it's not like I just turned from a phlegmatic person to violent and aggressive over night. I always had that tendency and it's been developing for the past 6 months but taking T just made it a bit more pronounced. So if there's anything that's going to happen cognitively, I think it's that, personally. T or E will simply emphasize traits in either direction you already have and allow yourself to indulge in more. Suddenly it's ok for a transwoman to not appear logical anymore and that mental relaxation can by itself simply make you feel more "irrational" or whatever.


I agree with that. I no longer feel like I need to be hyper-rational to avoid criticism. I can even cry and no one thinks twice about it. Men do not have that luxury, it's typically discouraged even when young.

I also allow myself to explore more gendered activity that I might have had an interest in before but never had the option; feminine things no longer draw attention. And at least women typically don't have the same boundaries as men; a cisgen female friend and I plan to go to a shooting range this year and learn how to fire a gun, for example. But "guys who knit" usually attracts a lot more attention. 



Signify said:


> Yeah, there are some scare stories running around online about HRT effects. I think I"ve read in a couple of places that starting E puts you in an emotional state equivalent to that of a teenage girl. Err, I've seen some people react with emotions exceeding the threshold of what I'd personally expect (ratio of how intense the emotion should be given the stimuli which caused it), but I don't know if I'd take it THAT far.


Yeah, I've heard that too and even seen it. I think the amount of repression that occurred pre-transition will also impact that -- usually the biggest repressers got hit the hardest IMO. I was always artistic and increasingly willing to explore my emotional state (fun being a 5w4), so it wasn't a LOT Of change aside from the hormone swings. But I've seen some of the repressers go into really nasty crying jags, get very temperamental, take things personal... pretty much all PMS-like symptoms. It would kinda freak me out.

I was going to mention that in the first months (and I think I've mentioned it before), I found a lot more connection between body and emotion. The weirdest moments were two times I got started and burst into tears. (One time, some oil ignited in the frying pan I was using and flared up about a foot; the other time a car almost hit me at an intersection.) I'd been in car accidents before and freaked people out by how casual I was about it (on the outside). But here there was a one-two beat and then I started bawling, both times, from the fear surge. It was wild.

I just viewed it as "finally being alive" and rode with it. I think like I mentioned above, you get used to the potential for such things, and nowadays I don't really have those kinds of responses; I adjusted somehow.

EDIT: Also I wanted to say that, in the discussion of whether hormones cause emotional shifts and some speculation on whether the social influences and placebo effects have a place there, well, yes, I think all of it contributes; but I wanted to note that individual biology and biochemistry is different. it's very possible for one person to be heavily influenced by hormones and others not that much at all. It really depends on your unique body chemistry, so that also needs to be factored in.


----------



## Entropic

Noticed some hair recession going on yesterday evening after I showered, and it seems I am either losing weight and/or having some body fat distribution going on because the fat on my butt definitely felt a little different too. I haven't gotten any increase in appetite yet despite working out, so it might well lead to weight loss. 


* *










I hope it won't recede too much because I kind of like my hair.


----------



## Jennywocky

ephemereality said:


> ...I hope it won't recede too much because I kind of like my hair.


Yeah, those kinds of things are the breaks... one of the drawbacks  But maybe you'll get lucky. 

Some guys use propecia/finasteride, i think, to keep as much hair as possible... but of course too much of that and you could have slower change elsewhere.


----------



## Entropic

Jennywocky said:


> Yeah, those kinds of things are the breaks... one of the drawbacks  But maybe you'll get lucky.
> 
> Some guys use propecia/finasteride, i think, to keep as much hair as possible... but of course too much of that and you could have slower change elsewhere.


I was recommended by a transgirl I know that Rogaine may be sufficient to stop the process since you need a doctor's prescription to get Finasteride/Propecia here. I will just have to keep an eye out and make sure it doesn't recede too much. It's difficult because I have never seen or met my biological family so I can't tell what to expect really. Otherwise I could at least get an inkling by judging the hair of my biological father and his father. 

I also didn't expect it to start receding this fast. Was thinking maybe in another couple of months around the same time I would perhaps start develop more body hair? I am not sure if that is something to be concerned over or not. My hair quality seems unchanged though. Still grows like weed.


----------



## jeb

ephemereality said:


> I could at least get an inkling by judging the hair of my biological father and his father.


It should be more helpful to judge hair loss potential by looking at the maternal grandfather, as hair loss is inherited from the mother.


----------



## timeless

ephemereality said:


> I was recommended by a transgirl I know that Rogaine may be sufficient to stop the process since you need a doctor's prescription to get Finasteride/Propecia here.


FWIW, I've heard that Finasteride/propecia isn't all that effective anyway.


----------



## Entropic

jeb713 said:


> It should be more helpful to judge hair loss potential by looking at the maternal grandfather, as hair loss is inherited from the mother.


Doesn't matter either way as I have no contact with either.



timeless said:


> FWIW, I've heard that Finasteride/propecia isn't all that effective anyway.


Think the effect depends on the person and how bad it is? The biggest problem is the cost right now, pretty much. For some reason it's not supported on the high cost card you can get here when buying medicine above a certain cost/year.


----------



## Jennywocky

jeb713 said:


> It should be more helpful to judge hair loss potential by looking at the maternal grandfather, as hair loss is inherited from the mother.


That's what people say, but my hair is much more like my father's and his father's, not like my maternal grandfather (who had a decent head of hair up to his death at age 95).

IOW, that rule of thumb did not work for me.


----------



## jeb

Jennywocky said:


> That's what people say, but my hair is much more like my father's and his father's, not like my maternal grandfather. IOW, that rule of thumb did not work for me.


Yep, none of these things are going to be 100 percent, or even close! The hair thing comes from the x hormone, which is the mother, but genes are tricky. There are some guys, who are not intersex, who are XX.


----------



## Sonny

jeb713 said:


> It should be more helpful to judge hair loss potential by looking at the maternal grandfather, as hair loss is inherited from the mother.





jeb713 said:


> Yep, none of these things are going to be 100 percent, or even close! The hair thing comes from the x hormone, which is the mother, but genes are tricky. There are some guys, who are not intersex, who are XX.


The causes of hair loss are still being researched, there are a lot of studies out there for anyone curious, and while they are still discovering causes it is clear now that the mothers genes are not the sole cause for male pattern baldness, one study showed a linked to the Y chromosome (Sox21). The fathers side of the family should also be looked at to see the chances of baldness in a son, regardless of if he is XY or XX.

Obviously a brother would be the best person to look at if he has one.

Family history and risk of hair loss. [Dermatology. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI


----------



## Entropic

I think I am going to marry this site:The FTM's Complete Illustrated Guide to Looking Like a (Hot) Dude

Also kudos for representing my masculinity. Now where do I find that Asian clothing store that has clothes that fit me...


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

ephemereality said:


> I think I am going to marry this site:The FTM's Complete Illustrated Guide to Looking Like a (Hot) Dude
> 
> Also kudos for representing my masculinity. Now where do I find that Asian clothing store that has clothes that fit me...


My fiancée is going to love this.


----------



## Flatlander

ephemereality said:


> I think I am going to marry this site:The FTM's Complete Illustrated Guide to Looking Like a (Hot) Dude


An excellent choice indeed. I hereby ordain you man and website.


----------



## Jennywocky

Holy crap, these look like selfies -- is this the author?










If so, he's umm..... really cute. :blushed: lol!


Anyway, great page. Glad you shared it with us.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Jennywocky said:


> Holy crap, these look like selfies -- is this the author?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If so, he's umm..... really cute. :blushed: lol!
> 
> 
> Anyway, great page. Glad you shared it with us.


He's so adorable! *O*
He kinda looks like my fiancée too teehee~


----------



## lolthevoidlol

ephemereality said:


> I think I am going to marry this site:The FTM's Complete Illustrated Guide to Looking Like a (Hot) Dude
> 
> Also kudos for representing my masculinity. Now where do I find that Asian clothing store that has clothes that fit me...


This is actually the main site I've used in my research. With little adjustment I believe I can use these tips to get the androgynous look I want.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

So there was yet another refusal for the gender sub-forum... This leaves me very frustrated... I think we need this in order to pretty explain gender and gender changes... But no, we are refused this without any explanation. I really had hope that this times we would be able to have this.

THE FRUSTRATION IS SO BIG!


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Aya Nikopol said:


> So there was yet another refusal for the gender sub-forum... This leaves me very frustrated... I think we need this in order to pretty explain gender and gender changes... But no, we are refused this without any explanation. I really had hope that this times we would be able to have this.
> 
> THE FRUSTRATION IS SO BIG!


I can understand somewhat given that this thread doesn't move so fast itself, but at the same time it'd be nice to have a place to organize resources and links n such somewhere where they don't get lost in the depths of this single thread.

And your avi is one of my top three games of all time


----------



## WamphyriThrall

Jennywocky said:


> Holy crap, these look like selfies -- is this the author?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If so, he's umm..... really cute. :blushed: lol!
> 
> 
> Anyway, great page. Glad you shared it with us.


His forearm veins, doe :blushed:


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

lolthevoidlol said:


> I can understand somewhat given that this thread doesn't move so fast itself, but at the same time it'd be nice to have a place to organize resources and links n such somewhere where they don't get lost in the depths of this single thread.
> 
> And your avi is one of my top three games of all time


That's exactly my point.

Oh! You like Shadow of the Colossus! I love the game. I was sketching Malus today.


----------



## Entropic

lolthevoidlol said:


> I can understand somewhat given that this thread doesn't move so fast itself, but at the same time it'd be nice to have a place to organize resources and links n such somewhere where they don't get lost in the depths of this single thread.
> 
> And your avi is one of my top three games of all time


Yeah, and to be honest, not just this thread but just a forum to discuss gender in general. You have so many threads everywhere about feminism and sometimes masculinity too, which obviously fits a gender forum better than the others. 

And being able to organize resources like the link I provided (vastly superior to most FTM sites I've read on the internet in my opinion) is of course also extremely useful. Would perhaps be nice also if people who are undergoing transition could be given a bit of a diary space, I don't know. I know that some people find it interesting to read about the changes we go through and how we experience things and I don't mind sharing. I fucking love how I have begun to build muscles on my upper body like finally, and it goes so fast with T too given that I don't work out very hard. If I can get a body similar to the guy who wrote that site I linked I'll be happy as hell.


----------



## Entropic

Not reapplying shaving gel after trying to correct the area of shaving: ouch. Men's razors are so different from women's razors. And I think I'm getting very small and pathetic sideburns.

I also saw my social worker earlier this week for the first time, and she said 3 weeks on T was hardly a long time. That's true, but the changes are quite impressive. I don't think she realized when she said that. I might as well be taking injections because that's how fast it goes, even though it's "just" gel. Also debating whether I should increase the dosage somewhat or not. Difficult to say when I can't measure my blood levels.


----------



## Flatlander

ephemereality said:


> Not reapplying shaving gel after trying to correct the area of shaving: ouch. Men's razors are so different from women's razors. And I think I'm getting very small and pathetic sideburns.
> 
> I also saw my social worker earlier this week for the first time, and she said 3 weeks on T was hardly a long time. That's true, but the changes are quite impressive. I don't think she realized when she said that. I might as well be taking injections because that's how fast it goes, even though it's "just" gel. Also debating whether I should increase the dosage somewhat or not. Difficult to say when I can't measure my blood levels.


I know there are companies out there you can send saliva to and have it tested, which would at least help some?


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

ephemereality said:


> Not reapplying shaving gel after trying to correct the area of shaving: ouch. Men's razors are so different from women's razors. And I think I'm getting very small and pathetic sideburns.


I'm used to men's razors but sometimes I'll cut my legs because the razor is so sharp.


----------



## Entropic

Flatlander said:


> I know there are companies out there you can send saliva to and have it tested, which would at least help some?


Does that work internationally too? I think the biggest issue is money though.


----------



## Flatlander

ephemereality said:


> Does that work internationally too? I think the biggest issue is money though.


I don't know. It would be something to investigate, maybe there's a company that does it that's national to you, and yeah it costs some money to get done just like bloodwork.


----------



## Jennywocky

Aya Nikopol said:


> I'm used to men's razors but sometimes I'll cut my legs because the razor is so sharp.


I typically use Schick Quattro for women. Apparently the big difference between male/female razors is the angle of attack -- the male razor head has to be far more aggressive because the hair is thicker and they're dealing with beard. The female razor also lets the woman see more skin while shaving body parts.

Men's and women's razors: What's the difference?

My skin also did soften up a lot on a typical female hormonal balance, so I get cut a lot less using female razors, which do a fine job of shaving my legs and underarms.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Jennywocky said:


> I typically use Schick Quattro for women. Apparently the big difference between male/female razors is the angle of attack -- the male razor head has to be far more aggressive because the hair is thicker and they're dealing with beard. The female razor also lets the woman see more skin while shaving body parts.
> 
> Men's and women's razors: What's the difference?
> 
> My skin also did soften up a lot on a typical female hormonal balance, so I get cut a lot less using female razors, which do a fine job of shaving my legs and underarms.


I usually get cut in my ankles because my skin is very fragile but not in other areas. My legs are not that hairy but hair is half blonde half black and it's very noticeable. I never shaved my whole body though, so I don't know how it would affect my upper legs or arms.


----------



## Entropic

Flatlander said:


> I don't know. It would be something to investigate, maybe there's a company that does it that's national to you, and yeah it costs some money to get done just like bloodwork.


I might, but given that what I'm actually doing is illegal (considered drug abuse), eh. It needs some investigation. The last thing I need is someone to file me to the police lol. I am not even sure I dare telling dad since he's employed by the police force. 

Also, I noticed those sideburns go a little further than just being sudeburns, meh. I need to shave again soon. I didn't realize it looked that bad. Beard, why do you exist?


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

ephemereality said:


> I might, but given that what I'm actually doing is illegal (considered drug abuse), eh. It needs some investigation. The last thing I need is someone to file me to the police lol. I am not even sure I dare telling dad since he's employed by the police force.
> 
> Also, I noticed those sideburns go a little further than just being sudeburns, meh. I need to shave again soon. I didn't realize it looked that bad. Beard, why do you exist?


Try to use gel and be soft about it. Using a aftershave cream might help too.
(the advantages of being surrounded by men all your life)


----------



## Entropic

Aya Nikopol said:


> Try to use gel and be soft about it. Using a aftershave cream might help too.
> (the advantages of being surrounded by men all your life)


I looked into aftershave but most are scented with perfume which I definitely can't use or I'll get allergic reactions. I have a good skin cream at home though, so I think I'll be fine hopefully. And yes, I'll shave after tomorrow's shower just to be extra sure on the nice part. My skin is mostly coarser on my arms, not so much my face. I wonder if that's also some Asian thing?


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

ephemereality said:


> I looked into aftershave but most are scented with perfume which I definitely can't use or I'll get allergic reactions. I have a good skin cream at home though, so I think I'll be fine hopefully. And yes, I'll shave after tomorrow's shower just to be extra sure on the nice part. My skin is mostly coarser on my arms, not so much my face. I wonder if that's also some Asian thing?


Liquid aftershave is a no no if you're skin is too sensitive. I'm talking about a cream like Nivea or something like it. They have aftershave creams that according to my friends work wonders.
The redness might come from a sensitive skin so doing it during a shower might help as well. Your skin might not be used to it as well. I advice you not to use much force or you might cut yourself. Men have many creams nowadays so you shouldn't have a problem finding the right one for your skin type.


----------



## Entropic

Do any of you taking testo suffer from drowsiness when the levels are too low/high? I had insomnia the weeks after my surgery, but now I'm beginning to feel overly sleepy almost all day. I could sleep all day almost. Granted, I bet the weather doesn't help. It's grey all day now. Don't think there's anything overly wrong with my sleep pattern aside maybe waking up a bit randomly but I did that before too.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

ephemereality said:


> Do any of you taking testo suffer from drowsiness when the levels are too low/high? I had insomnia the weeks after my surgery, but now I'm beginning to feel overly sleepy almost all day. I could sleep all day almost. Granted, I bet the weather doesn't help. It's grey all day now. Don't think there's anything overly wrong with my sleep pattern aside maybe waking up a bit randomly but I did that before too.


Could be the effects or the hormonal changes but could be the weather. We've been having heavy rain until a few weeks ago for months, I just wanted to stay in bed because the weather was so shitty.


----------



## Entropic

Aya Nikopol said:


> Could be the effects or the hormonal changes but could be the weather. We've been having heavy rain until a few weeks ago for months, I just wanted to stay in bed because the weather was so shitty.


First sunny day in a week yesterday, but grey again today with some drizzle. I was more energetic last week though, definitely. Difficult to pinpoint the cause obviously. First weeks on testo I was suffering from insomnia though it was likely more a result of having no hormones at all (I read some people do that after oopho).


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

ephemereality said:


> First sunny day in a week yesterday, but grey again today with some drizzle. I was more energetic last week though, definitely. Difficult to pinpoint the cause obviously. First weeks on testo I was suffering from insomnia though it was likely more a result of having no hormones at all (I read some people do that after oopho).


Is it usually bad weather where you live or less sunny?


----------



## Entropic

Aya Nikopol said:


> Is it usually bad weather where you live or less sunny?


Bad. I live near the Atlantic sea so all the crap that we get first hits us before it moves towards the mainland. I suppose it could be worse though. It could be Norway lol.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

ephemereality said:


> Bad. I live near the Atlantic sea so all the crap that we get first hits us before it moves towards the mainland. I suppose it could be worse though. It could be Norway lol.


Could be seasonal depression... Then again it could be just the hormones, like you said.


----------



## Flatlander

ephemereality said:


> Do any of you taking testo suffer from drowsiness when the levels are too low/high? I had insomnia the weeks after my surgery, but now I'm beginning to feel overly sleepy almost all day. I could sleep all day almost. Granted, I bet the weather doesn't help. It's grey all day now. Don't think there's anything overly wrong with my sleep pattern aside maybe waking up a bit randomly but I did that before too.


Can't say I've ever linked drowsiness to my testosterone use. Usually makes me feel more active, energized at the beginning, sometimes frustrated and moody in between shots.


----------



## Entropic

Aya Nikopol said:


> Could be seasonal depression... Then again it could be just the hormones, like you said.


Yeah, difficult to say since I definitely feel less energetic during winter but I felt pretty energetic the first weeks. Meh, hopefully we get some proper sun and spring and eventually I can move away from this stupidly dark country. Sun makes a big difference for me, for sure. 

Also, lol at your post count. 



Flatlander said:


> Can't say I've ever linked drowsiness to my testosterone use. Usually makes me feel more active, energized at the beginning, sometimes frustrated and moody in between shots.


Yes, but I think the difference is that you take shots so your levels are uneven whereas mine should be relatively even since I take daily. 

Not sure how workout affects things either.


----------



## WamphyriThrall

Flatlander said:


> Can't say I've ever linked drowsiness to my testosterone use. Usually makes me feel more active, energized at the beginning, sometimes frustrated and moody in between shots.


I had no idea you were trans (and feel like I'm late to the party)...


----------



## Flatlander

ephemereality said:


> Yes, but I think the difference is that you take shots so your levels are uneven whereas mine should be relatively even since I take daily.
> 
> Not sure how workout affects things either.


Do you work out? I've stopped since about last October. 

And yeah, I'm just relaying my experience for your comparison, for whatever it's worth. 



WamphyriThrall said:


> I had no idea you were trans (and feel like I'm late to the party)...


It's a thing. ^^


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

ephemereality said:


> Yeah, difficult to say since I definitely feel less energetic during winter but I felt pretty energetic the first weeks. Meh, hopefully we get some proper sun and spring and eventually I can move away from this stupidly dark country. Sun makes a big difference for me, for sure.
> 
> Also, lol at your post count.


It might be. My fiancée says he's lazy but I suspect it's the bad weather in Czech Republic, it's rarely sunny and the winter is horrible. (too bad he doesn't want to travel for now or I would hide him under my bed, winter in Portugal is more sunny)
Brazil? It's always sunny! XD

Is it 6.666? XD


----------



## Entropic

Flatlander said:


> Do you work out? I've stopped since about last October.
> 
> And yeah, I'm just relaying my experience for your comparison, for whatever it's worth.


I know, and yes, I have ramped it up the past week now. Mostly doing cardio though because I am more concerned about getting rid of female fat right now than I am building muscle (that comes anyway). Some suggested it's just a puberty thing, as in I'm tired because the body is going through puberty again. 

@Aya Nikopol you jinxed it  Czech Republic doesn't seem as bad as Sweden though. I used to live further up north before, it was teh painz. Not only did I dry up like a sandpaper during winter but having pretty much no sun for a couple of weeks during winter really kills you slowly. I don't get those crazy people that live in say, Haparanda or whatever. How do they even manage (well, I guess some don't given the propensity of suicide up there).


----------



## Playful Proxy

Random update for those that care: apparently I'm 1 week away from magical pills (bloodwork done yesterday). Quite a few friends are like, "Give it a few weeks, you're going to be as pissy as a teenage girl."  

Given that all of those who've said it have gone through this, what's the likelihood? I hear some say, "Nope, ya won't notice a difference, especially after a couple weeks", and others say it's like a light shines down from the clouds and answers all of life's deepest questions. Well, there's a mixed bag for ya.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Signify said:


> Random update for those that care: apparently I'm 1 week away from magical pills (bloodwork done yesterday). Quite a few friends are like, "Give it a few weeks, you're going to be as pissy as a teenage girl."
> 
> Given that all of those who've said it have gone through this, what's the likelihood? I hear some say, "Nope, ya won't notice a difference, especially after a couple weeks", and others say it's like a light shines down from the clouds and answers all of life's deepest questions. Well, there's a mixed bag for ya.


What does it means "to be pissy as a teenage girl"? I was never pissy :I


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

ephemereality said:


> @_Aya Nikopol_ you jinxed it  Czech Republic doesn't seem as bad as Sweden though. I used to live further up north before, it was teh painz. Not only did I dry up like a sandpaper during winter but having pretty much no sun for a couple of weeks during winter really kills you slowly. I don't get those crazy people that live in say, Haparanda or whatever. How do they even manage (well, I guess some don't given the propensity of suicide up there).


We had some nice weather here, but I really enjoy the rain, though I don't know how a weather with less sun than this (like England for example) would effect me in the long term. Going to somewhere hot would be suicide for my fiancée, but somewhere cold could affect me because I'm used to the sun. And I'm not a good person to be around when I'm depressed sadly.

Also your sign. Love it.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Aya Nikopol said:


> What does it means "to be pissy as a teenage girl"? I was never pissy :I


Apparently more sensitive emotionally, more snappy, and lotso drama. (well, threw that last one in there from observation of those who go on and watching them after a week or two) No idea if that's the E or just them trying to make the effect happen or something (the proper word/phrase eludes me).


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Signify said:


> Apparently more sensitive emotionally, more snappy, and lotso drama. (well, threw that last one in there from observation of those who go on and watching them after a week or two) No idea if that's the E or just them trying to make the effect happen or something (the proper word/phrase eludes me).


More emotional I understand, but snappy and lots of drama? I don't really get it. I'm was born a woman and I really didn't create lots of drama or I'm a drama queen. I think that's how people like to think women are... *straches head*


----------



## Bloodbraid

Jennywocky said:


> You're trying to understand it from the outside-in.
> But it comes from the inside-out.
> 
> If you are straight, why are you attracted to women? Can you explain that to me?
> The gender thing is the same; it's one of those things you experience but you can't necessarily determine where it comes from.
> 
> But it's what also can make it confusing to know what to do with. You wonder why you're different than others and whether if you just did something differently, had a different attitude, did the right "gendered things," maybe you'd feel better... but it doesn't go away regardless.
> 
> If you look around the world, there are some men who naturally fit the masculine cliche, and there are some women who fit the female cliche. There are also those who force themselves to fit a stereotype but for whom it is unnatural and you can tell. There are also many men and women who have a sense of themselves as men and women, yet are not stereotypes.
> 
> Transsexuals can be similar in their presentation, although there might be more temptation to conform to a cliche in EITHER direction ("No, I'm not trans, I can prove it to myself by acting like a stereotype of my bio gender!" or "Yes, I'm really a man/woman rather than a woman/man, and I'll prove it by being more masculine/feminine than a cisgender person!"). But especially nowadays where society has eased up some on gender stereotypes + the gatekeepers are no longer demanding that transsexuals conform to stereotypes to get treatment, you will find a wide variety of transsexuals just as you will cisgenders.


So you're trying to say that I won't be able to understand it?


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Bloodbraid said:


> So you're trying to say that I won't be able to understand it?


Not at all. But there is a difference between understanding something intellectually and understanding it experientially. A heterosexual can understand that some people are attracted to the same sex, but it's not the same as understanding what it's _like_. You can spend all day telling someone what it's like to hallucinate on acid, but there's still a world of difference between telling someone what it's like and them actually experiencing it. Same for sky diving or walking on the moon and many things. And it's the same for trans*. You could certainly come to some level of understanding about the issue, but there will always be some amount of gap.


----------



## Jennywocky

Bloodbraid said:


> So you're trying to say that I won't be able to understand it?


I don't know. Do you?


----------



## Bloodbraid

Jennywocky said:


> I don't know. Do you?


I'm trying to understand it but I don't know if I WILL be able to understand it. 

What part of the opposite gender do trans people identify with? I've heard women say that they identify with men more but aren't interested in becoming one. I'm wondering what the difference is between those two types of people. I'm sure a trans person identifies with a gender but what about that gender leads them to feel like they ARE that gender.


----------



## Entropic

Bloodbraid said:


> I'm trying to understand it but I don't know if I WILL be able to understand it.
> 
> What part of the opposite gender do trans people identify with? I've heard women say that they identify with men more but aren't interested in becoming one. I'm wondering what the difference is between those two types of people. I'm sure a trans person identifies with a gender but what about that gender leads them to feel like they ARE that gender.


The same feeling that makes you feel that you are the gender you think you are. That's not any different. It's just that when you are trans, you feel that your body doesn't match this internal experience. That's the problem.


----------



## Bloodbraid

ephemereality said:


> The same feeling that makes you feel that you are the gender you think you are. That's not any different. It's just that when you are trans, you feel that your body doesn't match this internal experience. That's the problem.


I guess I just don't like that there isn't an answer.


----------



## Jennywocky

Bloodbraid said:


> I'm trying to understand it but I don't know if I WILL be able to understand it.


Okay. And my question was serious -- i was just on cell phone and only had time to type a little. I gave the analogy of sexual preference because that was the easiest "similar" thing I could think of that you had experience with and maybe could use to connect with.



> What part of the opposite gender do trans people identify with? I've heard women say that they identify with men more but aren't interested in becoming one. I'm wondering what the difference is between those two types of people. I'm sure a trans person identifies with a gender but what about that gender leads them to feel like they ARE that gender.


Well, like with sexual preference, you don't necessarily think of being attracted to women (if you are attracted to women), you just see a woman you find attractive and you just ARE attractive. maybe you can try to break it down afterwards, and say her face is pretty or her personality or you find yourself staring at certain body parts,but in general you are attracted first as a big broad feeling. You know you are attracted, even if you cannot articulate exactly why.

or you consider yourself male, and you can justify it by pointing at your body, but you would think yourself male even if you would accidentally lose your male parts or someone tried to make you into a woman somehow, right? Your identity would remain male.

This is that kind of self-knowledge, and typically it's how it shows up when it does show in young children -- most kids say, "I'm a boy" or "I'm a girl" without any prompting, they just automatically know what they are... and with the transkids, it's the same thing except it happens to fly against their body. So the parents think the child is joking, or pretending, or perhaps thinks it's "better" in some way to be the other gender; but with people who end up being transsexual, that "knowledge" never goes away. But it can be confused if the person is thoughtful, because they think, "Why do I automatically identify as the other gender, if my body is this one? What's wrong with me?" So then the person can spend a long time questioning themselves, trying to change themselves, etc.

I think for the example you gave above, men can identify more with women while still identifying as men and vice versa. Their identity or sense of self seems to fit their bodies. For transsexual people, it's the opposite. And it's not "something about the other gender" that spawns it, it is just an innate identification.



Bloodbraid said:


> I guess I just don't like that there isn't an answer.


I wish there was an answer to. It would make it easier to explain.

I mean, we see differences in brain structure in a few areas, for transsexuals vs non-transsexuals, and this is before any kind of hormonal treatments. It's likely there is decreased/increased sensitivity in receptors or some other condition so when the brain is "prepped" by hormones before you're born, the hormones that are normally effective to align everything are not... or some similar biological mechanism. But right now all we know are the structural differences that do exist.


----------



## Entropic

Jennywocky said:


> I mean, we see differences in brain structure in a few areas, for transsexuals vs non-transsexuals, and this is before any kind of hormonal treatments. It's likely there is decreased/increased sensitivity in receptors or some other condition so when the brain is "prepped" by hormones before you're born, the hormones that are normally effective to align everything are not... or some similar biological mechanism. But right now all we know are the structural differences that do exist.


I saw a documentary before about two identical twins where one became a transwoman and another simply remained being a homosexual man. So while biology definitely plays a role this suggests that the social environment is also very important. If it was purely biology then both would turn out to be transwomen or homosexual men. 

Though from what I remember, homosexuals and bisexuals also have a bit of a different wiring in their brain compared to someone who is heterosexual. What I don't like about these studies though, is how they polarize heteronormativity as the norm so anything that is different from that is different. We have different brains from cispeople. It puts cis in a clear and obvious position of power. If we took three people and one is transsexual, one agender and the final one cisgender, what would we find in terms of brain spectrum? 

One might as well argue that cis is different from trans too but since cis is seen as the norm, trans is what is different. It's the same language problem that occurs with those who were born intersex. Their anatomy isn't different. It's a variant.


----------



## WamphyriThrall

ephemereality said:


> I saw a documentary before about two identical twins where one became a transwoman and another simply remained being a homosexual man. So while biology definitely plays a role this suggests that the social environment is also very important. If it was purely biology then both would turn out to be transwomen or homosexual men.
> 
> Though from what I remember, homosexuals and bisexuals also have a bit of a different wiring in their brain compared to someone who is heterosexual. What I don't like about these studies though, is how they polarize heteronormativity as the norm so anything that is different from that is different. We have different brains from cispeople. It puts cis in a clear and obvious position of power. If we took three people and one is transsexual, one agender and the final one cisgender, what would we find in terms of brain spectrum?
> 
> One might as well argue that cis is different from trans too but since cis is seen as the norm, trans is what is different. It's the same language problem that occurs with those who were born intersex. Their anatomy isn't different. It's a variant.


I'm not sure if you've heard of it, but in the 19th century, there was a theory called "sexual inversion" that basically stated that gay men and women were simply members of the opposite sex trapped in the wrong body, since, you know, liking men is totally within the realm of women, and vice versa. Even more recently, we have crack pots like Blanchard who think transsexuals are basically "extreme homosexuals", completely ignoring how diverse sexuality within trans community can be. 

My opinion? We're still very far in understanding sexuality and gender, and my own hypothesis is that there are potentially multiple "causes", types, and expressions of both gender and sexuality, so trying to understand them solely through a hetero/ciscentric lens is definitely the wrong way to go about understanding them. 

And if it's not too much trouble, I'd be interested in viewing that documentary...


----------



## Entropic

WamphyriThrall said:


> I'm not sure if you've heard of it, but in the 19th century, there was a theory called "sexual inversion" that basically stated that gay men and women were simply members of the opposite sex trapped in the wrong body, since, you know, liking men is totally within the realm of women, and vice versa. Even more recently, we have crack pots like Blanchard who think transsexuals are basically "extreme homosexuals", completely ignoring how diverse sexuality within trans community can be.
> 
> My opinion? We're still very far in understanding sexuality and gender, and my own hypothesis is that there are potentially multiple "causes", types, and expressions of both gender and sexuality, so trying to understand them solely through a hetero/ciscentric lens is definitely the wrong way to go about understanding them.
> 
> And if it's not too much trouble, I'd be interested in viewing that documentary...


Yes, I've heard. I tried to look it up before but can't find it anymore. That's the problem when you randomly click on Youtube links sigh.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

@ephemereality I wasn't even aware bisexuals and homosexuals had a different brain writing, I always read that it had to do with hormone balance.


----------



## Entropic

Aya the Whaler said:


> @ephemereality I wasn't even aware bisexuals and homosexuals had a different brain writing, I always read that it had to do with hormone balance.


Well, the hormonal imbalance is the cause of the different sexual wiring which would have a physiological effect.


----------



## Entropic

double post


----------



## Jennywocky

ephemereality said:


> I saw a documentary before about two identical twins where one became a transwoman and another simply remained being a homosexual man. So while biology definitely plays a role this suggests that the social environment is also very important. If it was purely biology then both would turn out to be transwomen or homosexual men.


Yup. And the documentary is "Red without Blue," although there's likely been other such twins out there. 

Still, you can't even make it THAT simple. You realize that environment can actually impact cell replication and thus modify genes on the fly to some degree? Some genes can be activated / accentuated more than others even after birth.

Just noting that it's more complicated than "nature OR nurture," it's a handshake process and not a binary static one.


----------



## Jennywocky

Oh, and for kicks, I simply have to share this:




> Scientists announced today that four women received lab-grown vaginas between 2005 and 2008 — and, according to their doctors, all of the patients are doing quite well.
> 
> The women, who were between 13 and 18 at the time of the surgery, were all born with a rare genetic condition called Mayer-Rokitansky-Kuster-Hauser syndrome(MRKH) — a condition that causes about one in 4,500 girls to be born with either an underdeveloped or absent vagina and uterus. The traditional treatment for women with MRKH involves reconstructive surgery or painful dilation procedures. These interventions can be quite traumatic — they have a complication rate of 75 percent in pediatric patients — so researchers wanted to find a way to avoid them altogether. That's why they set out to engineer vaginas, described in a study published in _The Lancet _today_,_that would be compatible with each patient.
> The vaginal organs themselves were generated using a combination of cells — epithelial cells that line body cavities, as well as muscle cells — biopsied from the women's genital areas. Anthony Atala, a urologist at Wake Forest University who conducted the trials, said in a video interview that his team took "a very small piece of tissue from the patient, less than half the size of a postage stamp, and we then teased the cells apart and grew the cells separately." The cells were then expanded and sewn onto a biodegradable scaffold that the researchers had previously shaped into a vagina tailored to each patient. Six weeks later, the women underwent surgery.
> 
> To implant the lab-grown vaginas, surgeons first had to create a canal in the women's pelvic areas. The surgeons then sutured the biodegradable scaffold to the patients' already existing reproductive structures. In the weeks following the operation, the women's nerves and blood vessels gradually expanded and started integrating themselves into the engineered tissue. As this was happening, the women's bodies were slowly absorbing the scaffolding. By the time the scaffolding had completely disappeared, it was no longer needed — the cells had laid down their own permanent support structure.
> Follow-up tests showed that the engineered tissue was indistinguishable from the women's native tissue. "We now show up to an 8-year follow-up with those organs showing functionality," Atala said. By "functionality," he means that the women are now able to experience sexual desire, pain-free sex, and can even reach orgasm...



Lab-grown vaginas have been successfully implanted in four women | The Verge


----------



## Entropic

Jennywocky said:


> Yup. And the documentary is "Red without Blue," although there's likely been other such twins out there.
> 
> Still, you can't even make it THAT simple. You realize that environment can actually impact cell replication and thus modify genes on the fly to some degree? Some genes can be activated / accentuated more than others even after birth.
> 
> Just noting that it's more complicated than "nature OR nurture," it's a handshake process and not a binary static one.


Yeah, I have heard that too though it was more in relation to stress caused on the body to modify resistance to say stress and such which is obviously a different kind of mechanism but it could have different impacts we don't know of course.



Jennywocky said:


> Oh, and for kicks, I simply have to share this:
> 
> 
> [/FONT][/COLOR]
> Lab-grown vaginas have been successfully implanted in four women | The Verge


lol yeah, the Facebook group has been going crazy over this (a lot of MtFs in it). I found an article from 2006 where they successfully transplanted a lab-grown penis to a mouse was it, and the mouse could use it normally and got offspring. 

Unfortunately the penis is a more complicated organ than the vagina though, especially if you also consider the way it works with the testes.


----------



## Jennywocky

ephemereality said:


> Unfortunately the penis is a more complicated organ than the vagina though, especially if you also consider the way it works with the testes.


First it has to inflate and deflate triggered by desire; then it's got a lot of working parts in terms of ejaculation (where fluid gets added along the way).

The vagina's not nearly that complex, although the other internal parts are.

I just keep laughing when I think of the mouse with the human ear growing out of its back... except this one would have a large penis. Poor little guy. It's almost like a Kevin Smith comic book, with "Captain Hammermouse" fighting crime by whacking baddies with... well, you know.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Hmm....so when's this new method going to start getting rolled out en masse? 6 weeks of growth in a lab in addition to a surgery smells like it'd be a heck of a lot of moolah, though.


----------



## Entropic

Jennywocky said:


> First it has to inflate and deflate triggered by desire; then it's got a lot of working parts in terms of ejaculation (where fluid gets added along the way).
> 
> The vagina's not nearly that complex, although the other internal parts are.


Yeah, and then if you want to add the other mechanisms for sexual stimulation it gets more complicated. For biological women they have the clitoris and to a degree the uterus and that's about it. I think I can live with ejaculating without actual sperm though, but I wonder how the sensation will be like. I assume that for transmen at least, they will attach the penis on top of the clitoris and/or remove it and attach the nerve connections with the clitoral organ, so it would in essence still feel like stimulating a very large clitoris to achieve clitoral orgasm? I think the greatest difference in a transman's micropenis after having undergone meta and a biological man's dick is that the swelling of blood vessels e.g. throbbing/hardness/whatever will not quite feel the same simply because the organ is smaller with fewer vessels to speak of. Then of course actual ejaculation can never be experienced unless we figure out a way to remodel the entire body somehow, but I doubt that will happen before serious use of nanotechnology that might make this possible and unfortunately I doubt that will happen in my lifetime. 



> I just keep laughing when I think of the mouse with the human ear growing out of its back... except this one would have a large penis. Poor little guy. It's almost like a Kevin Smith comic book, with "Captain Hammermouse" fighting crime by whacking baddies with... well, you know.


LOL. Indeed poor mouse. Though I assume they won't grow it on a mouse but just from scratch using primordial soup kinda. I think I would feel a little bad if my future penis would be grown on a mouse.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

ephemereality said:


> I think I would feel a little bad if my future penis would be grown on a mouse.


----------



## Metaplanar

TWN said:


> ... and more importantly a masculine, stereotypical "male" mind.


So, everyone with some T in their system has a "stereotypical male mind" in your opinion? Something about that seems fishy.
Many people, including cisgender people, don't match the stereotypes. What does "having a male mind" even mean, exactly? 

If T is the defining component, does that mean that to you, trans women stay "mentally male" as long as they have their balls, while trans men can become "mentally male" through HRT? (and why make "maleness" and not "femaleness" the defining factor?) Or is this just your way to keep believing in definite qualitative psychological differences based on genitals, in a "oh, they may want to be women and I'll humour them but I know they're really still men" way?


----------



## So Long So Long

TWN said:


> Well, that's what I mean. They _are_ just a male with lots of surgery. It is possible to be a trans-something, without necessarily being transgender.
> 
> But, why do some people want to become the sex that their gender identity belongs to? That's the question I want answered.
> 
> I think some trans people dont want to admit that while they may transgender, they want the surgery because they want the privilege that comes with it. Some trans women feel like since they've always felt like "women", they have a right to all of the "luxuries/privileges" females receive.
> 
> They want the attention.
> 
> They dont want people second-guessing what they are.
> 
> They want men treat them like a lady, not a man.
> 
> The only way to fully live out that fantasy is to change your body.


First things first: I believe you've been horribly misguided in what transgender means because it includes gender non-conforming individuals (at least in accordance to the Western world's viewpoint of 'gender variance') and people that would be classified as transsexual and everyone in between. Even if that's not the original meaning of the word that's how it's used in most practices. 

Also the question you are asking is going to have at least a million and one answers because people get gender confirmation surgery for _so_ many different reasons. The most prevalent is because while addressing the fact that their assigned sex at birth isn't accurate, socially transitioning, possibly starting hormones and legally changing their name is a very freeing experience it might not be enough. I know personally I'm not going to completely be comfortable in my body until I get top surgery and that's perfectly okay. There's nothing wrong with wanting gender confirmation surgery just like there's nothing wrong with not wanting those type of surgeries. 

And even if trans women want surgery because of those reasons, who fucking cares? We don't live in a vacuum and dysphoria isn't just internal, it also comes from the external like society, friends, family, potential partners and so on. I think we all grow up taking in this toxic gender essentialism bullshit and it can digest into this rapid cycle of physical and social dysphoria for trans people. I don't think there's a right to really judge and pass arbitrary scales on what are valid and not valid reasons for getting gender confirmation surgery either, especially since most people are paying out of pocket and that shit is not cheap. If we lived in a perfect world where people were taken on word alone about their gender among many other factors then maybe surgery wouldn't be such a big thing for trans people but we don't so it's pretty necessary. 

By the way, it's laughable that you think any of that is a privilege (quotation marks notwithstanding) when trans women are routinely assaulted and/or murdered for their sex and gender not matching the cisgender standard that society lives by. Many aren't reaching for attention either, they just want to blend in and live their life without ignorant people crowding them at every possible angle.


----------



## Jennywocky

TWN said:


> Hehe, as far as im concerned that is the only way to uncover the truth. Just to keep throwing every logical argument at something, and see what sticks. Or, keep asking questions.
> 
> The second to last sentence in your post...I have friends that are trans women (No surgery, but estrogen, & boobs) and from what they told me they still have some....natural "male" instincts. No matter how much estrogen you have, your body still naturally produces testosterone, and this is the reason why my two friends still experience (And, enjoy) higher-than-average sex drives, the ability to gain muscle more easily than their female sisters (And can better protect themselves), and more importantly a masculine, stereotypical "male" mind.
> 
> I've been told that they still use their, eh, tools (Penises), and they would never want to get rid of what makes them "male", unless they could be essentially re-born as a real female, and have the ability to naturally have kids. And even then, they wouldnt want to change their personality, or brains.
> 
> In other words, unless sex-reassignment surgery comes with a uterus and ovaries along with the vagina, they're fine keeping their penises, and wont overload on hormones in order to keep them functioning properly.
> 
> Now, THAT is one of those insensitive things INTPs say that get them kicked out of LGBT conversations.


I think it's more the bedside manner than the content, to be honest. 
Being INTP doesn't give people an excuse for being contextually or relationally insensitive.



> These people may not speak for all trans people, but they bring up solid points for not wanting/needing surgery.


You're right, they don't speak for all transsexuals. And in any case, there are a lot of people under that umbrella nowadays, and it's moved from the old binary-ish transsexual model to something far more diverse (so the non-ops can get treatment, hormones, etc.) 

So sure, there are some people in that category you describe. I can even attest that I know a number of folks myself who do go on hormones and shift gender roles but feel fine in keeping their old equipment for whatever reason. Whatever floats their boat, it's not really my business. It happens on both sides of the fence, sure. and I've met my share of both transmen and transwomen who even do come across as more their biogender than their identified gender, although it's not really my place to judge since I don't know their past life experience, I don't know where they're at now, I'm not privy to their inner experience, and I don't know where they'll end up. If they specifically as me, I'll tell them my impressions, but otherwise it's none of my business.

But their experience is not much like mine, which seems far more stereotypically female. My T was never high and after years on hormones and just being retested again, my T and estro is firmly in the average realm for cisgen women (since men and women always have both hormones in their body and will even convert one to the other if the balance is off). My emotional/mental sex drive wasn't very high, and what physical sex drive I had pretty much plummeted as soon as my T dropped; my muscle mass dropped significantly as well as what little physical aggression i might have had. I can still get sexually interested in someone, but it's much more about how I'm relating to them at the moment and not based on visual factors. I also couldn't cope until I made the full change, and I am finally happy and content even when I might not like every aspect of my body or life, etc; it was life-changing for me, but maybe for someone else it would not have been.

Looks like we all have our different experiences.



> _I think some trans people dont want to admit that while they may transgender, they want the surgery because they want the privilege that comes with it. Some trans women feel like since they've always felt like "women", they have a right to all of the "luxuries/privileges" females receive.
> 
> (etc)
> (etc)
> (etc)
> _


_

You can think whatever you want, it's a free country.

I just personally find the blanket repeated use of "some" distasteful because it pinpoints nothing -- it suggests anything from a substantial minority to a bare majority, but could actually mean anything reasonably from 10-70% I suppose. it's just a vague word used to make a point seem stronger than it might actually be, and we have no way to tell... except to acknowledge that it's your personal speculation._


----------



## TWN

You obviously cant read.

Let's break this down, shall we.



So Long So Long said:


> First things first: I believe you've been horribly misguided in what transgender means because it includes gender non-conforming individuals (at least in accordance to the Western world's viewpoint of 'gender variance') and people that would be classified as transsexual and everyone in between. Even if that's not the original meaning of the word that's how it's used in most practices.


I was speaking (In that last post about a gender-conforming male wanting surgery) about people that are NOT *GENDER* nonconforming.



So Long So Long said:


> *Also the question you are asking is going to have at least a million and one answers because people get gender confirmation surgery for so many different reasons. The most prevalent is because while addressing the fact that their assigned sex at birth isn't accurate...*


Accurate? See, this is where my problem lies. Gender is a social construct. It was created to, for the most part, force males and females into the roles that false authority figures deemed most proper.

*Gender roles being obsolete, and hurtful to both men and women is the basis for feminism, and other equal rights movements.*

Im not even a feminist, and I know that. I find it hard to believe that someone that claims to know so much about trans people cant see that gender roles, and gender identities hurt more than they help.

I cant wait until the day that we all just have "Identities" and not "gender" identities.



So Long So Long said:


> And even if trans women want surgery because of those reasons, who fucking cares? We don't live in a vacuum and dysphoria isn't just internal, it also comes from the external like society, friends, family, potential partners and so on. I think we all grow up taking in this toxic gender essentialism bullshit and it can digest into this rapid cycle of physical and social dysphoria for trans people. I don't think there's a right to really judge and pass arbitrary scales on what are valid and not valid reasons for getting gender confirmation surgery either, especially since most people are paying out of pocket and that shit is not cheap. If we lived in a perfect world where people were taken on word alone about their gender among many other factors then maybe surgery wouldn't be such a big thing for trans people but we don't so it's pretty necessary.


I care. Or rather, I give a few fucks about it. For a number of reasons, with the most prominent being, why not care? 

*That's the problem with the world today: *Everyone is going around screaming "Who cares?" and not questioning any social rules or constructs that are put before them.

The reason I dont call myself trans outside of public discussions is because I dont want to attach myself to a movement filled with a bunch of idiots that scream "Who cares?" everytime someone wants to dive into the real reasons why some trans people struggle with their lives.

that's the bottom line. I see problems, and search for solutions. 

It's what makes me a stereotypical INTP, a bad feminist, and an even worse Trans person.

But, who cares, right?

Also, I dont think dysphoria means what you think it means.



So Long So Long said:


> By the way, it's laughable that you think any of that is a privilege (quotation marks notwithstanding) when trans women are routinely assaulted and/or murdered for their sex and gender not matching the cisgender standard that society lives by.


Please READ what I wrote.

*I specifically said that the treatment FEMALES get is considered a privilege to transitioning trans women. *

Again, re-read my words.


----------



## TWN

Jennywocky said:


> I think it's more the bedside manner than the content, to be honest.
> Being INTP doesn't give people an excuse for being contextually or relationally insensitive.



I don't need an excuse. It's who I am, and I would appreciate if we could speak without injecting so much emotion into it.

A lot of trans people would simply say "If YOU'RE not trans, you have no say in the discussion"

You should be happy im not that type of asshole.


----------



## Jennywocky

TWN said:


> I don't need an excuse. It's who I am, and I would appreciate if we could speak without injecting so much emotion into it.


Seriously? I scan your posts and they are typically bristling with aggression.

You also blew off anything serious I had to say to focus on the comment i made that you could choose to take personally. Again... who is interjecting emotion?



> A lot of trans people would simply say "If YOU'RE not trans, you have no say in the discussion"
> 
> You should be happy im not that type of asshole.


INTP says: "What's that have to do with anything?"


----------



## TWN

Jennywocky said:


> Seriously? I scan your posts and they are typically bristling with aggression.
> 
> You also blew off anything serious I had to say to focus on the comment i made that you could choose to take personally. Again... who is interjecting emotion?
> 
> 
> 
> INTP says: "What's that have to do with anything?"


Aggression? Point it out.

Please, provide proper sources for your argument.


----------



## Jennywocky

TWN said:


> Aggression? Point it out.
> 
> Please, provide proper sources for your argument.


Srsly? Why not start with your post from yesterday where you felt the need to blow in and complain about all the people who didn't know how to properly use the word "trans" and then blow back out?

EDIT: And now I flip back a post or three and see you posting stuff in larger font and bolding things. You're the only one doing that. It's the equivalent or yelling / raising your voice online.

... I have trouble believing you're not aware of your tone, considering you've been in trouble before regarding it.


----------



## TWN

Jennywocky said:


> Srsly? Why not start with your post from yesterday where you felt the need to blow in and complain about all the people who didn't know how to properly use the word "trans" and then blow back out?
> 
> EDIT: And now I flip back a post or three and see you posting stuff in larger font and bolding things. You're the only one doing that. It's the equivalent or yelling / raising your voice online.
> 
> ... I have trouble believing you're not aware of your tone, considering you've been in trouble before regarding it.



Refusing to point out specifics, and mentioning tone, rather than logic.

Tone over logic.

I have nothing more to say.


----------



## So Long So Long

Well, I don't really see any point in continuing this line of debate mostly because I'm bored with it. 

In other (more exciting) news though I will be on T for 20 months in four days, so holla at me!


----------



## Jennywocky

So Long So Long said:


> Well, I don't really see any point in continuing this line of debate mostly because I'm bored with it.


That's two of us. And why throw good money after bad?



> In other (more exciting) news though I will be on T for 20 months in four days, so holla at me!


GRATZ DUDE! Pretty cool.  

Time flies when you're having T. 
Or E.

(I realized I've been for, like, 6.5 years now, when I thought about it last week. And I still remember sitting there, staring at that little pill, the first little pill, wondering what would happen when I took it. Just... well, you know, it's incredible.)


----------



## Playful Proxy

Having the girlfriend in public is like some magical freaking shield. I can talk, act, and HRT can be as far as it likes in public with her and I have full immunity. No one raises even a brow.

Go without gf and I get stared at like crazy. What is this madness?


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

TWN said:


> You obviously cant read.


Such aggression.
This is what @Jennywocky was talking about.



> Gender is a social construct. It was created to, for the most part, force males and females into the roles that false authority figures deemed most proper.


Gender is cultural and biological. It's not just created to force female and males into a certain roles. If you look at nature these roles exist in other animals because of their biology, even those who live in society or groups, like lions. Females are constructed to take care of children and birth them biologically. It's not just a social construct, it's what they were meant to do by nature. And men, who are stronger, were meant to hunt and protect the children and women. And, no, women aren't as stronger physically as man, they're stronger in different areas.
There are parts of the gender that are social and cultural, but you have to take in consideration their Historical period. In the past women didn't go to war because they had to take care of the children (though in the World Wars women started to be used as spies that wasn't the norm). Men are stronger and, so, to protect women they were kept with that role of housewife. Now, both can be anything. That's great, yes, but we have to take in consideration the biological and hormonal (and from I can grader hormones play a huge role in your role) limitations and how it plays in each person.
If someone wants to be a traditional wife let her/he become one. I have nothing against it.



> *That's the problem with the world today: *Everyone is going around screaming "Who cares?" and not questioning any social rules or constructs that are put before them.


There are thing to which you can only say who cares and it's for the best of the person. When you're talking to a transgender/transsexual/whatever you wanna call it, in my experience, it's not a good idea to bring up genders and gender roles unless they want to talk about it, it's a touchy subject for most of them. Accepting and saying who gives a fuck that you're a man with boobs or a girl with a penis is actually the best for them. It gives them trust in themselves, makes them feel comfortable around you, makes them feel better. Acceptance is a bigger deal than question social constructs. Instead of questioning them, I think it would be better to accept people whatever they want to go against such constructs or not.
Transpeople don't need questioning, they need acceptance. They need your open arms.


----------



## Jennywocky

Playful Proxy said:


> Having the girlfriend in public is like some magical freaking shield. I can talk, act, and HRT can be as far as it likes in public with her and I have full immunity. No one raises even a brow.
> 
> Go without gf and I get stared at like crazy. What is this madness?


People are keying off the visual cues, it's pretty amazing stuff. 
Kinda like the "beard" for gay people, I guess. 

People really don't "look" if the shape and form seems correct. They just see two opposite-sex people.


----------



## TWN

Aya the Whaler said:


> Such aggression.
> This is what @_Jennywocky_ was talking about.
> 
> 
> Gender is cultural and biological. It's not just created to force female and males into a certain roles. If you look at nature these roles exist in other animals because of their biology, even those who live in society or groups, like lions. Females are constructed to take care of children and birth them biologically. It's not just a social construct, it's what they were meant to do by nature. And men, who are stronger, were meant to hunt and protect the children and women. And, no, women aren't as stronger physically as man, they're stronger in different areas.
> There are parts of the gender that are social and cultural, but you have to take in consideration their Historical period. In the past women didn't go to war because they had to take care of the children (though in the World Wars women started to be used as spies that wasn't the norm). Men are stronger and, so, to protect women they were kept with that role of housewife. Now, both can be anything. That's great, yes, but we have to take in consideration the biological and hormonal (and from I can grader hormones play a huge role in your role) limitations and how it plays in each person.
> If someone wants to be a traditional wife let her/he become one. I have nothing against it.
> 
> 
> There are thing to which you can only say who cares and it's for the best of the person. When you're talking to a transgender/transsexual/whatever you wanna call it, in my experience, it's not a good idea to bring up genders and gender roles unless they want to talk about it, it's a touchy subject for most of them. Accepting and saying who gives a fuck that you're a man with boobs or a girl with a penis is actually the best for them. It gives them trust in themselves, makes them feel comfortable around you, makes them feel better. Acceptance is a bigger deal than question social constructs. Instead of questioning them, I think it would be better to accept people whatever they want to go against such constructs or not.
> Transpeople don't need questioning, they need acceptance. They need your open arms.



Look at you. Speaking about trans people as if im not one myself.

This is how I know that all of you against my questioning arent looking for any type of philosophical resolve for problems that face people like me. And yes, im pulling the "People like me" card, because you insist on speaking about individuals.

Well, technically im a trans individual, and I say everyone needs to be subjected to questioning. Everyone needs to wonder "why? Who am I? What do my life experiences amount to?"

If they dont experience that, if they never run into another individual that challenges them, they will never grow as a human being.


----------



## Entropic

TWN said:


> My problem with it is awareness. Only a few Trans people (Including Laverne Cox) have tried to educate people on what the word transgender means.


I am not sure I see the problem. Most people know what transgender means due to its broad use, but few people know what transsexualism is nowadays because it's no longer widely used outside a few select countries that use it as a diagnostical definition over GID. 



> I think some trans people view "transsexual" as to offensive, crass, and aggressive for their tastes, especially if they're trans women, but it matters in the process of educating the general public.


I am still not sure I see where your problem lies with it. You are being vague. 



> Also, another question for my fellow trans people: Why do transsexuals lie about being pre-op trans* people? Or rather, why not just let their sex be known? especially when dating. I mean, I've done it in the past. "So you're trans what does that mean exactly?" "I dont have a penis, nor have I ever owned one. We can talk details later when I actually know you." "OK, cool"


Maybe because it's a touchy subject because they fear rejection among other things? 



> It's an annoying conversation to have, but Im sure it'll make the lives of everyone easier.


Easier for who and who are you to decide what they should and should not do? It's up to the trans person to decide how much they want to tell others about them being trans, not you. 



> For the vast majority of trans people, gender does not relate to their body.


I am not even sure what is suggested with this statement. Of course gender relates to body in the sense that how we choose to present ourselves and how we are understood by others is undeniably associated with our bodies. If that wasn't the case, we wouldn't be assigned a specific gender at birth based on how our bodies are shaped and operate. 



> Thats actually Trans 101: Sex, and gender are not one in the same.


No, trans 101 is that the relationship between gender and body is complicated and cannot be separated in easy-to-discriminate categories. If it really was that simple a lot of trans issues wouldn't exist such as social dysphoria caused by one's sense of gender not matching one's body in the eyes of the public.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

TWN said:


> Look at you. Speaking about trans people as if im not one myself.


Sorry, but you're generalizing all trans people according to your own experience.



> This is how I know that all of you against my questioning arent looking for any type of philosophical resolve for problems that face people like me. And yes, im pulling the "People like me" card, because you insist on speaking about individuals.


Okay, good for you. What else do you want me to say? People like you, that's good.
It's not like I don't want things to be resolved but some will not change in our lifetime and most aren't resolved through aggression.



> Well, technically im a trans individual, and I say everyone needs to be subjected to questioning. Everyone needs to wonder "why? Who am I? What do my life experiences amount to?"


I think everyone questions that at a point. Most come in terms with who they're or change sooner or later. You can't censor someone because they want to conform to the gender that they're, like you seemingly did before.



> If they dont experience that, if they never run into another individual that challenges them, they will never grow as a human being.


What I said above.
Everyone experiences that. It's not just homosexuals, or bisexual or transsexuals. Everyone does that.


----------



## Playful Proxy

When practicing voice, does the subconscious try to permanently alter the voice as you do? I swear I wasn't even trying and people give me really weird reactions on the phone these days.

"So yeah, you think you can take a look at it? The guy who changed my oil said it looked old, and for a rebuild, that shouldn't be a thing. It's not empty or leaking, just old-looking." 

"Yes..sir? Bring it in tomorrow, sir and I"ll take a glance, sir."

I guess that means I'm improving? From practice, voice still sucks with pitch far too low and I still push my voice intensity over pitch far too often.


----------



## Jennywocky

Playful Proxy said:


> When practicing voice, does the subconscious try to permanently alter the voice as you do? I swear I wasn't even trying and people give me really weird reactions on the phone these days.
> 
> "So yeah, you think you can take a look at it? The guy who changed my oil said it looked old, and for a rebuild, that shouldn't be a thing. It's not empty or leaking, just old-looking."
> 
> "Yes..sir? Bring it in tomorrow, sir and I"ll take a glance, sir."
> 
> I guess that means I'm improving? From practice, voice still sucks with pitch far too low and I still push my voice intensity over pitch far too often.


Phones are interesting. First of all, the frequency range is something like 300 hertz - 3,400 hertz. That's like D4 - G7 or something in the musical scale. The overtones / highs / lows all get cut.

You also get no other cues to work with -- it is all based on your voice. Your word choice, your inflection, your pacing, your tone of voice, your resonance, etc. My personal feeling is that if you nail a phone voice, especially without trying, you're doing things right. Phones seem to be one of the harder parts of transition (although the F2Ms are helped if they go on hormones, their voices drop).

i think the more you talk in a certain voice and the more you get used to it, it becomes your "norm." You automatically start to place the voice there; it's more comfortable. I don't really remember how to go back to my old voice, and it doesn't feel right when I try. 

My best story was a few months after I had been full-time (so obviously I had made a voice switchover months before). I got a call at work from someone at the county courthouse asking for my old (male) name -- it was in regards to something unrelated, that I had filed months before in my legal name at the time. I said "hang on" and went outside to take the call, trying to shift back to my old voice. I thought I had done okay, but the lady on the other end said, "Look, I know you're not him. If he's not there, can you please have him call us back when he gets in? Thanks," and hung up on me.

I had to go sit in my car for about ten minutes, practicing the guy voice, before I could make the call and be believable. I don't know if I could do it now, years later.


----------



## Entropic

Playful Proxy said:


> When practicing voice, does the subconscious try to permanently alter the voice as you do? I swear I wasn't even trying and people give me really weird reactions on the phone these days.
> 
> "So yeah, you think you can take a look at it? The guy who changed my oil said it looked old, and for a rebuild, that shouldn't be a thing. It's not empty or leaking, just old-looking."
> 
> "Yes..sir? Bring it in tomorrow, sir and I"ll take a glance, sir."
> 
> I guess that means I'm improving? From practice, voice still sucks with pitch far too low and I still push my voice intensity over pitch far too often.


I assume you're an MtF so your experience will be different from mine (I suppose kind of like if I would try to speak at a higher pitch now haha, which just sounds ridiculous and because of my changes from T, I also just crack a lot), but yes, practice practice practice.

I did practice on my own before getting T because dyshoria is a bitch. There's no danger in speaking higher either way, so it's about finding a place where you feel comfortable and sound all right and just keep using that in your everyday life. Some people do it "secretly" when in "lady mode", but I think it's better to try to use it all the time unless you absolutely cannot (not being out yet) because that way you really force yourself to make it a habit instead of creating a habit with exceptions as those exceptions may become very difficult to overcome later when you need to edit those too. 

But if you can tell that people in your environment reacts to you differently now, that's great. It means you're doing something right. Also it might be good to ask someone who knows you well to give you input and to keep making recordings too so you can track your progress etc. It will be encouraging when you look at though it may feel slow and pointless at first since you don't see any immediate results.

Unfortunately that's just the way it is being trans. It's about small long-term changes like with HRT, not something you can wake up to one morning and you suddenly got the body you wanted. Ah well, maybe the day nanotech is widely available to the public but that will be well after my lifetime.


----------



## Playful Proxy

-Ephemeral- said:


> I assume you're an MtF so your experience will be different from mine (I suppose kind of like if I would try to speak at a higher pitch now haha, which just sounds ridiculous and because of my changes from T, I also just crack a lot), but yes, practice practice practice.
> 
> I did practice on my own before getting T because dyshoria is a bitch. There's no danger in speaking higher either way, so it's about finding a place where you feel comfortable and sound all right and just keep using that in your everyday life. Some people do it "secretly" when in "lady mode", but I think it's better to try to use it all the time unless you absolutely cannot (not being out yet) because that way you really force yourself to make it a habit instead of creating a habit with exceptions as those exceptions may become very difficult to overcome later when you need to edit those too.
> 
> But if you can tell that people in your environment reacts to you differently now, that's great. It means you're doing something right. Also it might be good to ask someone who knows you well to give you input and to keep making recordings too so you can track your progress etc. It will be encouraging when you look at though it may feel slow and pointless at first since you don't see any immediate results.
> 
> Unfortunately that's just the way it is being trans. It's about small long-term changes like with HRT, not something you can wake up to one morning and you suddenly got the body you wanted. Ah well, maybe the day nanotech is widely available to the public but that will be well after my lifetime.


Your assumption is accurate regarding MtF. In terms of using it always, I keep my pitch up, but I try to keep an eye on reasonation and inflections. Since most people I am around don't know (though at the rate HRT is going, I may not have a choice soon), I try to do what I can and incorporate, fiddle with inflection/reasonation in my car driving...wherever. I've kindof adopted it in such a way that I do a lot of testing/fiddling/playing with what sounds good in my car and I can screw things up as badly as I want, and adjust, and once I feel comfortable with a small 'concept', I try to gradually apply it universally. Obviously, my voice still drops back down in some cases, but I'm trying to knock that down a bit. 

Anxiousness/extreme emotion seems to be the primary cause of that. But yeah, I think a full blown alignment of pitch/reasonation/and inflection when people are used to my voice in a very different fashion would draw some unneeded attention. Kinda like how most people who are around you a lot don't notice the subtle HRT changes, I'm trying to subtly change voice. Speaking of, how the heck do you cut down on croakiness/crackiness?


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

@Playful Proxy
I don't know if this is exactly what you want to hear, but I know guys with high voices, so you don't need to be scared of having a high voice. I know a guy who sounds like a woman all the time and he was born male.


----------



## Drewbie

I came out to my parents as non-binary and told them about my intentions to transition. They, surprisingly, took it a whole lot better than my coming out to them about my sexuality. I've got their support 100%. I was not expecting that _at all_ but I'm really glad to have it.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Drewbie said:


> I came out to my parents as non-binary and told them about my intentions to transition. They, surprisingly, took it a whole lot better than my coming out to them about my sexuality. I've got their support 100%. I was not expecting that _at all_ but I'm really glad to have it.


I'm glad everything seems to be working out for you.  Yeah, my parents seem to take bigger issue with my sexual orientation as well...or...they say less about the whole girl thing.


----------



## Drewbie

Playful Proxy said:


> I'm glad everything seems to be working out for you.  Yeah, my parents seem to take bigger issue with my sexual orientation as well...or...they say less about the whole girl thing.


I wonder how common that is. I had a small feeling that might be the case for my parents, but I honestly wasn't expecting as positive a response as I got. I think my dad believes I'm at, like, some heightened state of being because in his own words, 'there won't be any male or female genders in heaven, you're just a step ahead of the rest of us'. Idk how I feel about that but _WHATEVER_, parental support. Woo.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Drewbie said:


> I wonder how common that is. I had a small feeling that might be the case for my parents, but I honestly wasn't expecting as positive a response as I got. I think my dad believes I'm at, like, some heightened state of being because in his own words, 'there won't be any male or female genders in heaven, you're just a step ahead of the rest of us'. Idk how I feel about that but _WHATEVER_, parental support. Woo.


I honestly don't know what my parents think. My mom today was like, "As far as I see you, you're still a boy, through and through. (Though...I'm almost to the point of needing a bra...yup. Totally a boy)" Mind you, this was immediately after she told me lesbian relationships were a sin and that she didn't feel comfortable seeing my gf and I showing PDA...uhhh...can't have your cake and eat it too, dear. If it's a lesbian relationship, I'm your daughter, if you are going to be an ass and see me as your son, then....this is completely kosher.

Random ego-boost point: I am getting funny looks in public due to HRT's effects, to the point that from afar, some ******** in the back of a truck were flirting with me until I passed them. Not there yet, apparently, but..I wasn't even trying. It's coming along.


----------



## Drewbie

Playful Proxy said:


> I honestly don't know what my parents think. My mom today was like, "As far as I see you, you're still a boy, through and through. (Though...I'm almost to the point of needing a bra...yup. Totally a boy)" Mind you, this was immediately after she told me lesbian relationships were a sin and that she didn't feel comfortable seeing my gf and I showing PDA...uhhh...can't have your cake and eat it too, dear. If it's a lesbian relationship, I'm your daughter, if you are going to be an ass and see me as your son, then....this is completely kosher.
> 
> Random ego-boost point: I am getting funny looks in public due to HRT's effects, to the point that from afar, some ******** in the back of a truck were flirting with me until I passed them. Not there yet, apparently, but..I wasn't even trying. It's coming along.


Parents are so weird. I tend to see that a lot though, people putting trans people in whatever box that suits them to call trans people wrong. 

Congrats on your HRT results! I'm really looking forward to starting HRT. I'm moving to Texas soon though, so I don't know how much harder or easier it will be for me to get them than in Indiana. I've heard the area I'm moving to is a not terrible place for trans people to live so long as you stay close to the university campus but still, Texas.


----------



## Jennywocky

Playful Proxy said:


> I honestly don't know what my parents think. My mom today was like, "As far as I see you, you're still a boy, through and through. (Though...I'm almost to the point of needing a bra...yup. Totally a boy)" Mind you, this was immediately after she told me lesbian relationships were a sin and that she didn't feel comfortable seeing my gf and I showing PDA...uhhh...can't have your cake and eat it too, dear. If it's a lesbian relationship, I'm your daughter, if you are going to be an ass and see me as your son, then....this is completely kosher.


Yeah, get used to that, unfortunately -- you end up getting beat with the stick regardless of which it is. 

But what it tells you is that the person is having trouble dealing and has to find fault in some way. It's not really about you.



> Random ego-boost point: I am getting funny looks in public due to HRT's effects, to the point that from afar, some ******** in the back of a truck were flirting with me until I passed them. Not there yet, apparently, but..I wasn't even trying. It's coming along.


 I remember those experiences of going into the old bathroom, there near the end, and getting really funny looks. But it is definitely an egoboost.


----------



## Flatlander

Playful Proxy said:


> I honestly don't know what my parents think. My mom today was like, "As far as I see you, you're still a boy, through and through. (Though...I'm almost to the point of needing a bra...yup. Totally a boy)" Mind you, this was immediately after she told me lesbian relationships were a sin and that she didn't feel comfortable seeing my gf and I showing PDA...uhhh...can't have your cake and eat it too, dear. If it's a lesbian relationship, I'm your daughter, if you are going to be an ass and see me as your son, then....this is completely kosher.


Is your mother a dominant Fe type? The apparent lack of recognition of the contradiction in terms seems lazy and inf Ti-like, and the sort of reasoning that would lead to each of those ideas seems to me like Fe.

Could be some lulzy attempt to manipulate, too.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Flatliner said:


> Is your mother a dominant Fe type? The apparent lack of recognition of the contradiction in terms seems lazy and inf Ti-like, and the sort of reasoning that would lead to each of those ideas seems to me like Fe.
> 
> Could be some lulzy attempt to manipulate, too.


I THINK she's either an INFJ or an ENFJ, I'm leaning towards the INFJ, though. So yeah, there's some Fe in there. I'm supposedly ENTP, so you'd think I'd be able to communicate on SOME level. >.<


----------



## Flatlander

Playful Proxy said:


> I THINK she's either an INFJ or an ENFJ, I'm leaning towards the INFJ, though. So yeah, there's some Fe in there. I'm supposedly ENTP, so you'd think I'd be able to communicate on SOME level. >.<



Ti reasoning could hurt her if she's an Fe ego type and it's pointed against her mental constructs, so it's not a perfect given.


----------



## baby blue me

I have high respect for trans people. Just saying. A lot of you guys are awesome. Though there are few who are obnoxious. It comes in all sexes.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

baby blue me said:


> I have high respect for trans people. Just saying. A lot of you guys are awesome. Though there are few who are obnoxious. It comes in all sexes.


Yeah, trans people are pretty awesome and admirable for the most part. Very strong and determinate! It's great when you look up to a person like that.


----------



## baby blue me

Aya the Whaler said:


> Yeah, trans people are pretty awesome and admirable for the most part. Very strong and determinate! It's great when you look up to a person like that.


How can people not like them? What ever happened to diversity?


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

baby blue me said:


> How can people not like them? What ever happened to diversity?


Humans are complicated beings, they often don't like what they cannot understand.


----------



## Entropic

Heh, in under just less than 5 months of HRT I can notice a pretty big difference in my face already.


----------



## baby blue me

Aya the Whaler said:


> Humans are complicated beings, they often don't like what they cannot understand.


Well said.


----------



## baby blue me

-Ephemeral- said:


> Heh, in under just less than 5 months of HRT I can notice a pretty big difference in my face already.


HRT? The statement sounds positive though. So, great!


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

baby blue me said:


> HRT? The statement sounds positive though. So, great!


He's talking about the hormonal treatment having effects on his face.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Flatliner said:


> Ti reasoning could hurt her if she's an Fe ego type and it's pointed against her mental constructs, so it's not a perfect given.


I take it that "You argue..about everything" or "You always have to be right" is that kind of deal? She doesn't stop to consider if what I'm saying is right, just irritated that I didn't show agreement.


----------



## Flatlander

Playful Proxy said:


> I take it that "You argue..about everything" or "You always have to be right" is that kind of deal? She doesn't stop to consider if what I'm saying is right, just irritated that I didn't show agreement.


Yeah, because in her mind the Fe evaluation _is_ right, and she's relying on external signals to confirm that. That's how I read that, anyway.


----------



## Playful Proxy

So uhhh...when are you supposed to start asking friends to switch pronouns? I know I don't pass, and it bugs me that I feel the need for it, but seriously, being 'he'd is really unnerving. I'm being a prideful procrastinator and trying to get them to minimize use of masculine pronouns but what that equates to is simply, "switching is awkward and I'm trying to put it off though I know it'd feel better if they did, ultimately." You think it doesn't matter till they start machine-gunning the wrong pronoun with you as the subject of a conversation and your brain just sits there twitching.


----------



## Entropic

Playful Proxy said:


> So uhhh...when are you supposed to start asking friends to switch pronouns? I know I don't pass, and it bugs me that I feel the need for it, but seriously, being 'he'd is really unnerving. I'm being a prideful procrastinator and trying to get them to minimize use of masculine pronouns but what that equates to is simply, "switching is awkward and I'm trying to put it off though I know it'd feel better if they did, ultimately." You think it doesn't matter till they start machine-gunning the wrong pronoun with you as the subject of a conversation and your brain just sits there twitching.


When you feel that you are ready for it imo. There is no right or wrong answer there obviously. I made everyone switch pronouns and names when I came out which was last year and it was way before I began taking HRT and the like. Nor did I pass. But it mattered that people saw me the right way and I kept correcting people. It's for your own sake and comfort, not everyone else's. If they can't take the time to support you in that you definitely don't need to have them around.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Playful Proxy said:


> So uhhh...when are you supposed to start asking friends to switch pronouns? I know I don't pass, and it bugs me that I feel the need for it, but seriously, being 'he'd is really unnerving. I'm being a prideful procrastinator and trying to get them to minimize use of masculine pronouns but what that equates to is simply, "switching is awkward and I'm trying to put it off though I know it'd feel better if they did, ultimately." You think it doesn't matter till they start machine-gunning the wrong pronoun with you as the subject of a conversation and your brain just sits there twitching.


My fiancée never allowed me to treat him as a woman when we first meet. He only explained me why a few months later.


----------



## knife

...then he's a fiancé, the extra e indicates he's a she... :crazy:

So sue me, I'm pedantic... :crazy: :crazy:


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

hammersklavier said:


> ...then he's a fiancé, the extra e indicates he's a she... :crazy:
> 
> So sue me, I'm pedantic... :crazy: :crazy:


He wasn't my fiancée back then~ XD


----------



## knife

French + trans people = delicious gumbo


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

hammersklavier said:


> French + trans people = delicious gumbo


Add his Czech and my Portuguese and it's the best combo evar.


----------



## Flatlander

Aya the Whaler said:


> He wasn't my fiancée back then~ XD


Does the term apply now? Is s/he transitioning?


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Flatliner said:


> Does the term apply now?


Which term?



> Is s/he transitioning?


He's starting the process, yes.


----------



## Entropic

Just finished watching this speech and my overall impression is that it's too simplistic. I have to say I find it ironic how the speaker argues against the gender binary, yet only uses examples to support binary logic e.g. heterosexuality is compared to homosexuality, transsexuals to cispeople. It ignores the wider spectrum all together. I mean, what about a bisexual's brain, or perhaps even more interestingly, someone who sees themselves as pansexual? 

Also, it feels extremely reductionist to draw the implicit conclusion that all forms of transgender and even sexualities are simply results of an intersex condition. It feels like my feelings are brushed away in favor of a medical scientific explanation.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

-Ephemeral- said:


> Just finished watching this speech and my overall impression is that it's too simplistic. I have to say I find it ironic how the speaker argues against the gender binary, yet only uses examples to support binary logic e.g. heterosexuality is compared to homosexuality, transsexuals to cispeople. It ignores the wider spectrum all together. I mean, what about a bisexual's brain, or perhaps even more interestingly, someone who sees themselves as pansexual?
> 
> Also, it feels extremely reductionist to draw the implicit conclusion that all forms of transgender and even sexualities are simply results of an intersex condition. It feels like my feelings are brushed away in favor of a medical scientific explanation.


I'm trying to watch this, but she sounds like she's reading so much I'm getting bored and I'm having a a hard time understanding her. This is not how you do a presentation on any subject, especially one such as this.

Scientists are not even quite sure if transexuals, homosexuals or bisexuals have something different in their brains or if it's just hormonal or if it's both, and she keeps taking all this conclusions about this. 

I was never taught to be any sexuality, so I became attracted to both, it seems only natural to me. Most of my gender issues comes from society itself. They're the ones telling me I sound male, I would be fine being any really. Thus, my wish to become both.

She's so boring, god. Stop reading from a paper, be dynamic. Explain me something! I wanna learn!

America (and Wikipedia) think dyslexia is mental illness too, so I don't know. Which means my brain is a double mystery. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!


----------



## Playful Proxy

Welp, got my first "Hey look, a ******" comment today. This upcoming time is going to be just wonderful. :dry:


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Playful Proxy said:


> Welp, got my first "Hey look, a ******" comment today. This upcoming time is going to be just wonderful. :dry:


Ignore them. There is no need for you get angry because of other's ignorance.


----------



## So Long So Long

I took a comparison shot the other day and I wanted to share it here. These two pictures were taken roughly four years and three months apart and the subtle changes are _awesome_. 










(16, Pre-T)










(20, 21 months on T)


----------



## Flatlander

So Long So Long said:


> I took a comparison shot the other day and I wanted to share it here. These two pictures were taken roughly four years and three months apart and the subtle changes are _awesome_.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (16, Pre-T)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (20, 21 months on T)


That gives me hope.


----------



## Mr.Blayz

it would be sad but I would do that anyways, especially since people are against it. you would be a martyr in the lgbt community


----------



## Playful Proxy

Mr.Blayz said:


> it would be sad but I would do that anyways, especially since people are against it. you would be a martyr in the lgbt community


Err...what? What do you mean?


----------



## Entropic

Found this article which is an interesting response to the previous video I linked as it directly addresses many of the issues I have with the perspective presented in that video:

Science Will Not Save Us: Medicine, Research Ethics, and My Transgender Body | Autostraddle


----------



## Entropic

Could I please blast my hips to oblivion.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Dear estrogen, 
You take fooorever. Hurry up, please? Cmon, I'll bother you a LOT less if you at least thin out/lighten the body hair. Shaving legs doesn't work quite so well when it's that obnoxiously dark and you know where it doesn't belong.

Lots of impatience, 
Taylor


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Playful Proxy said:


> Dear estrogen,
> You take fooorever. Hurry up, please? Cmon, I'll bother you a LOT less if you at least thin out/lighten the body hair. Shaving legs doesn't work quite so well when it's that obnoxiously dark and you know where it doesn't belong.
> 
> Lots of impatience,
> Taylor


But there are hairy women with dark body hair too. My body hair is black.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Aya the Whaler said:


> But there are hairy women with dark body hair too. My body hair is black.


Personally, I'd feel much better if after a smooth shave there weren't still tiny obnoxious little black dots.  Generally speaking, E helps with that in time unless genes decide to bite you, but it's been one of my pet peeves since forever.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Playful Proxy said:


> Personally, I'd feel much better if after a smooth shave there weren't still tiny obnoxious little black dots.  Generally speaking, E helps with that in time unless genes decide to bite you, but it's been one of my pet peeves since forever.


Oh come on, even I have that and I'm a woman. I don't shave during the winter and my legs get as hairy as a man's.


----------



## Elyasis

Aya the Whaler said:


> Oh come on, even I have that and I'm a woman. I don't shave during the winter and my legs get as hairy as a man's.


Respect for going natural in the winter.


Mostly I just forget to shave because I'm horribly absent minded... then I also become hairy like a man. Rawr! I am man beast! Let me squash your bugs and open your jars.



As far as the topic goes... I'm kinda genderqueer? I guess. I just put female in forums and such because I honestly don't think much of it at all. I don't "feel" like a woman or a man. But I have the lady parts from birth so I go with that as a convenient way to indicate that I have them so people won't be shocked that I do.

I'm not attached to my gender, one way or the other.

The only thing that bugs me is people's assumptions about me when they see I'm female... or see that my appearance doesn't quite conform to expectation. I wear my hair incredibly short for convenience and everyone seems to have an opinion about it. Like "are you lesbian? are you the butch? oh, I thought you were a boy at first."

The last one doesn't really bother me but I see it as more symptomatic of people's expectation of gender roles.

All I really want is to be me, and have people accept the real me... not what they imagine I am. So I guess I kind of get the trans situation... but also not.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Elyasis said:


> Respect for going natural in the winter.
> 
> 
> Mostly I just forget to shave because I'm horribly absent minded... then I also become hairy like a man. Rawr! I am man beast! Let me squash your bugs and open your jars.


I forget it all time. It's amazing. I wanna use skirt. I haven't shaved. So I give up.



> As far as the topic goes... I'm kinda genderqueer? I guess. I just put female in forums and such because I honestly don't think much of it at all. I don't "feel" like a woman or a man. But I have the lady parts from birth so I go with that as a convenient way to indicate that I have them so people won't be shocked that I do.
> 
> I'm not attached to my gender, one way or the other.


I feel like you in ways, but I'm not sure what I wanna be, female or male. It's very complicated. Some days I feel like I'm none, other days I'm one. It confuses my head. What am I?


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Elyasis said:


> Respect for going natural in the winter.
> 
> 
> Mostly I just forget to shave because I'm horribly absent minded... then I also become hairy like a man. Rawr! I am man beast! Let me squash your bugs and open your jars.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as the topic goes... I'm kinda genderqueer? I guess. I just put female in forums and such because I honestly don't think much of it at all. I don't "feel" like a woman or a man. But I have the lady parts from birth so I go with that as a convenient way to indicate that I have them so people won't be shocked that I do.
> 
> I'm not attached to my gender, one way or the other.
> 
> The only thing that bugs me is people's assumptions about me when they see I'm female... or see that my appearance doesn't quite conform to expectation. I wear my hair incredibly short for convenience and everyone seems to have an opinion about it. Like "are you lesbian? are you the butch? oh, I thought you were a boy at first."
> 
> The last one doesn't really bother me but I see it as more symptomatic of people's expectation of gender roles.
> 
> All I really want is to be me, and have people accept the real me... not what they imagine I am. So I guess I kind of get the trans situation... but also not.


have you considered agender? that's how I identify, and much of what you wrote here resonated with me. here's something I wrote a few months ago just to get my own gender thoughts out, maybe some will resonate with you too...




This is my understanding of my self and my lifelong transitioning process.


The physical process of transitioning is merely the side effect of a psychological transition that has been long in coming.


For me this psychological transition consists of the change from being a person who desired to be invisible to a person who both wants to be seen and believes it is possible to be seen.


Invisibility has always been safe. Invisibility meant that my father might not hurl verbal and emotional abuse at me. It meant the bullies might not attack me. It meant the teachers might not ask questions about why my grades had plummeted. It meant that I might escape the attention of sexual predators.


But invisible is a lonely place. It is empty, hollow, and unfulfilling. It undermines the skills needed to reach out and make necessary and vital human connection. It is, in the medical sense, morbid.


I say it is morbid because it is the natural inclination of humans to want to be seen. Young children who have yet to learn to be ashamed spend their days freely exploring the world and themselves with constant cries of "Look Mommy! Look Daddy! Look!"


My relationship with my body has been a history of betrayal and rejection. When I was young I was free to simply be, undifferentiated from my fellows except by virtue of personality. But as time passed and my body changed suddenly my place in the world changed as well. No longer was it appropriate to run around topless. Clothing choices suddenly had great implications on my character. It became the time to learn how to be a lady. My curves marked me as woman. My curves inspired others to perceive me in particular ways, have expectations of me for certain things, and to judge me based on those perceptions and expectations. My body betrayed my character by indicating that I was to be related to in ways that had nothing to do with my understanding of myself or my desires. My body betrayed me by indicating that my life and interactions with others were no longer set on my own terms but on the constructs that surround my physical presence.


This I rejected vehemently but to no actual payoff. There was no avoiding the assumptions that preempted me in every interaction. So I attempted to learn to meet expectations. I understood that it would go easier for me if I did. And sometimes I enjoyed it, especially the power an exposed hip or an inch of cleavage seemed to give me. In those moments it felt like things were finally on my terms again. But this was false; a castle built on sand. It was merely my terms built on top of their terms, and their terms I rejected. It required evaluating myself by standards I did not truly accept. It required rejecting parts of myself that I would have embraced otherwise. It required betraying myself.


In sum, it was wrong. It felt wrong to my core. And so I once again desired invisibility.


This invisibility was a dream. A dream of no longer being imprisoned by that which does not represent me. A dream of avoiding the assumptions and being able to be perceived as a person first and foremost. If my body was no longer part of the equation then people would have to interact with me based on my character. I disconnected even further from my body, barely paying attention to it beyond basic needs and acceptable professional presentation. I never bought clothes for myself or spent time in the mirror. It was as if I thought that if I ignored my body then everyone else would too.


I am not a woman. I am not a man. I do not reject these identities; I have never held them. I have always been just me. I have never perceived myself through the lens of man or woman unless forced to by others. I do not reject these identities in others, I simply have no personal reference, no visceral connection to "feeling like a man/woman". I know these identities exist in a real way for others, but even if I could I would never choose to experience myself in that way. Gender has never been a part of my personal equation and I have no desire for it to be.


But the binary of gender is a part of society's equation and just about everyone's personal equations regarding both self and other. It is unavoidable. The concept of being without gender is unfathomable to some. When I express that I am nongendered some people simply perceive a female who does not want to be a woman and therefore must want to be a man. But both man and woman are equally wrong for me. Both feel like dressing in drag.


This has always been my truth, there is no transition process regarding my gender identity. But it is only recently that I began to think that it may be possible for that truth to not be invisible. For years I carried the dream of invisibility while simultaneously recognizing that impossibility. Then I began to dream that the exact visibility I wanted, to be seen as nongender, was possible. But this is also impossible simply from a logical standpoint. My society does not recognize "nongender". Gender is everywhere, it permeates everything and every interaction. No matter what I look like people are never going to see me and think "oh, that's a nongender person". This society's cognitions simply don't function that way. Whatever I look like, people are going to be asking "is it a man or a woman?" The reality of this, that what I wanted was impossible, caused me to push my feelings down and attempt to stop dreaming.


But it still hurt on a fundamental level every time I was confronted with a gendered notion of myself. Pronouns, gendered terms, even compliments that are particularly gendered are a constant uncomfortable reminder that I am invisible behind this wall of physicality that does not represent my self. It's a constant nagging with the occasional gut punch. It weighs on me, it invades my dreams, it's the specter over my should in every interaction. And I simply can't stand being invisible any more.


I thought I was fine with invisibility. I even wanted it once. But it is truly morbid and I cannot accept it any more. But what about the reality of the situation, the fact that I can never possibly "pass" as nongender on the street because as far as the public conscious is concerned nongender does not exist?


I think I have finally found the kind of visibility that will make me feel like myself again. I am in the process of changing my physical presentation to one that is more androgynous or even "gender fucked". If I can't be seen as nongender I can at least be seen as not man or woman. I can try to preempt the assumptions by forcing people to look and think twice. People will still ask "is it a man or a woman", but at least they are asking the question. I want to confuse people, I want to make them question because that may allow me the opportunity to supply the answer myself.


This is new and exhilarating and terrifying territory for me. I'm not used to thinking of myself in a physical sense after years of trying to make my body invisible to myself and everyone else. Now I'm spending hours online researching what I can do to change my appearance. I'm developing a personal style. I've never had a personal style before! This is strange and unfamiliar and exciting! I can't remember the last time I was excited when thinking about my self!


I am scared. People don't like to have to think twice about something as "simple" as gender. I will be visible in a way I have never been before. I may be less safe. I will face social consequences for not conforming. I may face professional consequences.


But I can't deny the way my heart sings and my soul soars when I think about the "new" me and express that self to others. I can't deny that looking in the mirror and liking what I see feels like reclaiming my self. I can't deny how right it has felt to take these steps; how it's felt to move towards a life that is on my terms. I can't deny how it feels when people see me as I am; how the love and acceptance I've received from some people has literally changed my world and my relationship with it.


So yes, my transition includes physically changing my appearance. But the true transition has been moving from invisibility to my visible self.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Aya the Whaler said:


> Oh come on, even I have that and I'm a woman. I don't shave during the winter and my legs get as hairy as a man's.


*shrugs* body hair on me is one of those things that makes me want to launch things across my room with whatever velocity my arms feel like letting me.


----------



## Entropic

Wanted to respond to some of this because while I relate to some I don't relate to all, but I think our experience is similar largely because we were both assumed to experience ourselves as female because that is the identity that was assigned to us at birth:



lolthevoidlol said:


> My relationship with my body has been a history of betrayal and rejection. When I was young I was free to simply be, undifferentiated from my fellows except by virtue of personality. But as time passed and my body changed suddenly my place in the world changed as well. No longer was it appropriate to run around topless. Clothing choices suddenly had great implications on my character. It became the time to learn how to be a lady. My curves marked me as woman. My curves inspired others to perceive me in particular ways, have expectations of me for certain things, and to judge me based on those perceptions and expectations. My body betrayed my character by indicating that I was to be related to in ways that had nothing to do with my understanding of myself or my desires. My body betrayed me by indicating that my life and interactions with others were no longer set on my own terms but on the constructs that surround my physical presence.
> 
> 
> This I rejected vehemently but to no actual payoff. There was no avoiding the assumptions that preempted me in every interaction. So I attempted to learn to meet expectations. I understood that it would go easier for me if I did. And sometimes I enjoyed it, especially the power an exposed hip or an inch of cleavage seemed to give me. In those moments it felt like things were finally on my terms again. But this was false; a castle built on sand. It was merely my terms built on top of their terms, and their terms I rejected. It required evaluating myself by standards I did not truly accept. It required rejecting parts of myself that I would have embraced otherwise. It required betraying myself.


I understand this very much and I think I feel the same, by and large. I tried to adapt because I operated on the logic that if everyone thought I was this thing I must be this thing even though I felt otherwise, mostly because I was uncertain and felt confused over what else I would be. I felt like being male was off-limits simply because woman and man are defined each other's opposites. By virtue of being a woman I can therefore not be a man. Yet I felt so confined and limited in living as and trying to experience myself as a woman. It wasn't me and I never felt it. I eventually ended up trying to avoid labeling myself whenever I could, though I didn't strive towards looking androgynous or the like. It was more like I really just didn't give much of a fuck because I didn't know what to do about it, really. I just tried to ignore it I think, thinking that it's normal or common for people to feel the way I do/did. 



> I disconnected even further from my body, barely paying attention to it beyond basic needs and acceptable professional presentation.


I wonder how common that is for Ni types in general. I also have a very difficult medical history and some of it is related to physical sex and at some point I think I was just so fed up with my body that I stopped caring that it even existed. I merely associated it with pain and a discomfort I wish I didn't have to experience. It became a thing I simply inhabited because I had to inhabit something but overall it felt like it was more of an add-on of me rather than representative or a real part of me. 

I am not a woman. I am not a man. I do not reject these identities; I have never held them. I have always been just me. I have never perceived myself through the lens of man or woman unless forced to by others. I do not reject these identities in others, I simply have no personal reference, no visceral connection to "feeling like a man/woman". I know these identities exist in a real way for others, but even if I could I would never choose to experience myself in that way. Gender has never been a part of my personal equation and I have no desire for it to be.




> But the binary of gender is a part of society's equation and just about everyone's personal equations regarding both self and other. It is unavoidable. The concept of being without gender is unfathomable to some. When I express that I am nongendered some people simply perceive a female who does not want to be a woman and therefore must want to be a man. But both man and woman are equally wrong for me. Both feel like dressing in drag.


I do experience some sense of male-ness so we definitely differ in that regard, but I never really felt any kind of female-ness. I actually had a dream the other day when I dreamt that I was dressing up in women's clothing again but when I was observing myself I felt like I was acting like an MtF transvestite. I looked like one and felt like one. I still occasionally dream as if I am a woman in my dreams though, but I tend to probably be quite genderless in my dreams. It's more like I have a conscious presence in them but not necessarily a body. 



> But it still hurt on a fundamental level every time I was confronted with a gendered notion of myself. Pronouns, gendered terms, even compliments that are particularly gendered are a constant uncomfortable reminder that I am invisible behind this wall of physicality that does not represent my self. It's a constant nagging with the occasional gut punch. It weighs on me, it invades my dreams, it's the specter over my should in every interaction. And I simply can't stand being invisible any more.


I can understand that to a large degree for the same reason that I began to despise labeling myself as a woman or being recognized as such by others. Whenever I did it felt extremely wrong, and when people reminded me of this reality I felt a strong sense of discomfort. It could be related to something social but also to my body and the way it's shaped. For a long time I simply thought I have to be a woman because that's what people told me that I was and that's what my body indicated so I lived as such and tried to ignore the reality that I felt otherwise by simply not thinking about it and avoiding situations where this became too obvious to myself, but that poison sting whenever you are reminded becomes impossible to ignore at some point. It really would be easy to live as cis, it would. I would if I could because why wouldn't I? Society is built this way and everyone is encouraged and raised to think this way. It's so much easier, definitely, because you don't have to do a single thing then to prove your existence and how you feel. You simply have to be and live life without giving a single extra fuck more than what's necessary. A lot of cispeople don't seem to understand this, how much of a struggle it is when your sense of self goes against the hegemony just to be fucking recognized and seen for who you are. Everyone wants to be seen. 



> This is new and exhilarating and terrifying territory for me. I'm not used to thinking of myself in a physical sense after years of trying to make my body invisible to myself and everyone else. Now I'm spending hours online researching what I can do to change my appearance. I'm developing a personal style. I've never had a personal style before! This is strange and unfamiliar and exciting! I can't remember the last time I was excited when thinking about my self!


Yeah, again I wonder if that's part an Ni thing. I didn't spend any time thinking about myself in terms of body either at least more than I had to and I tried to ignore that I had one. Like you, realizing I was trans and taking control over my body in this way really led to a lot of important and beneficial character changes. For one I began to feel that body was not just "a thing" that was there but it can actually be a part of me and I can learn to enjoy it somewhat even though it's taking a lot of time. Especially after I began to workout and take HRT I have to say that I feel so much more grounded and present-minded than what I used to be. I actually feel like I am in my body as opposed to separated from it. 


> But I can't deny the way my heart sings and my soul soars when I think about the "new" me and express that self to others. I can't deny that looking in the mirror and liking what I see feels like reclaiming my self. I can't deny how right it has felt to take these steps; how it's felt to move towards a life that is on my terms. I can't deny how it feels when people see me as I am; how the love and acceptance I've received from some people has literally changed my world and my relationship with it.


I think a lot of trans people feel that way once they start to altering their presentation in a way that feels more in line with how they perceive themselves. I sometimes still second guess and I wonder if I am doing the right thing. It would be easier to stop and go back but there is no going back. I cannot go back to how things were and that is the only place where I can be, were I to stop. The fact that I still feel a lot of discomfort with my body not being shaped the way I want to, at least when I do reflect over my body which I am still not very good at doing because I tend to objectify it to such a degree that I push its existence and what I experience out of my mind like it's just there but I don't really reflect how it relates to myself and how I feel about what's there. When I see minor changes such as the beginning of something that looks like a very tiny Adam's apple or slimming down around my waist or larger upper body or deeper voice, I feel happy. I feel satisfied. It feels like this is what actually fits with how I've always experienced myself. 

How do you explain this to someone who has never felt discomfort with their body this way? You can't. You just know that it's the right thing to do because of how stupidly happy you feel when you do notice these changes and how right they feel as opposed to how things were like before. My biggest regret is that I didn't pursue this earlier when I realized in my late teens, instead of listening to the person who told me it was just a phase.

By the way, unrelated to the rest, but what pronoun do you prefer? Ze or they or something else? I think I tend to fall back on they when referring to people whose identities I don't know (I sometimes do anyway), but there are preferences here too, obviously.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Playful Proxy said:


> *shrugs* body hair on me is one of those things that makes me want to launch things across my room with whatever velocity my arms feel like letting me.


It's peer pressure though...


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Thank you for the thoughtful response!



-Ephemeral- said:


> I tried to adapt because I operated on the logic that if everyone thought I was this thing I must be this thing even though I felt otherwise, mostly because I was uncertain and felt confused over what else I would be. I felt like being male was off-limits simply because woman and man are defined each other's opposites. By virtue of being a woman I can therefore not be a man. Yet I felt so confined and limited in living as and trying to experience myself as a woman. It wasn't me and I never felt it.


 For me it was a bit different, I think because I never felt a connection to either. So figuring out what I was took a mentality of "am not" rather than "am". On an intellectual level I might be able to say "well if I had to choose one I'd be a dude". But even that doesn't connect to my being even if, in a situation where someone absolutely refuses to recognize my genderless state, I'd tell them to use "he". And that's simply because a wrong "he" is still a bit novel compared to the decades of the wrong "she". But a thousand time yes to feeling limited and confined when trying to embrace being a woman. 

One thing is that I never felt confused or uncertain to my agender identity. I've certainly had doubts of the "well everybody has to be something, maybe nobody seems to understand this because it's not real, you should just accept that you're just a girl who doesn't like being a girl and get over yourself" type, but somehow those fleeting doubts didn't actually equal confusion- there's a deep down part that has never not known what I am. Plus those thoughts only come when I've been tired out from battling over my gender with others.




> I wonder how common that is for Ni types in general. I also have a very difficult medical history and some of it is related to physical sex and at some point I think I was just so fed up with my body that I stopped caring that it even existed. I merely associated it with pain and a discomfort I wish I didn't have to experience. It became a thing I simply inhabited because I had to inhabit something but overall it felt like it was more of an add-on of me rather than representative or a real part of me.


I think it was definitely compounded by Ni. I think I would have experienced this to some degree if I was Ni without trans or trans without Ni but it's doubled or somesuch with the combination.





> I do experience some sense of male-ness so we definitely differ in that regard, but I never really felt any kind of female-ness. I actually had a dream the other day when I dreamt that I was dressing up in women's clothing again but when I was observing myself I felt like I was acting like an MtF transvestite. I looked like one and felt like one. I still occasionally dream as if I am a woman in my dreams though, but I tend to probably be quite genderless in my dreams. It's more like I have a conscious presence in them but not necessarily a body.


 Dreams are interesting. In my dreams I'm genderless, but I often have very sexual dreams and at those times my dream body could be male or female or something inbetween.





> It really would be easy to live as cis, it would. I would if I could because why wouldn't I? Society is built this way and everyone is encouraged and raised to think this way. It's so much easier, definitely, because you don't have to do a single thing then to prove your existence and how you feel. You simply have to be and live life without giving a single extra fuck more than what's necessary. A lot of cispeople don't seem to understand this, how much of a struggle it is when your sense of self goes against the hegemony just to be fucking recognized and seen for who you are. Everyone wants to be seen.


 God yes. And even more how it's a burden simply because it's there in your mind just about constantly. Some times I do think about saying "fuck it, I've lived in the shadows my whole life, this is just hard, I don't feel like fighting for my gender today, fuck it, I'll just go on as a 'woman' whatever". It's been hard.




> How do you explain this to someone who has never felt discomfort with their body this way? You can't. You just know that it's the right thing to do because of how stupidly happy you feel when you do notice these changes and how right they feel as opposed to how things were like before. My biggest regret is that I didn't pursue this earlier when I realized in my late teens, instead of listening to the person who told me it was just a phase.


 You're right that you can't really explain it. But something that I didn't even think about happened, which seemed to take a step towards understanding without explanation- once I started presenting androgynously even people who didn't really "get it" started making comments about how "this is so much more 'you'!" and "there's such a positive difference in you now".



> By the way, unrelated to the rest, but what pronoun do you prefer? Ze or they or something else? I think I tend to fall back on they when referring to people whose identities I don't know (I sometimes do anyway), but there are preferences here too, obviously.


I actually don't have a preference beyond that it be neutral. I use ey/em/eir myself and tend to teach people that version or just tell them to use the singular they because people seem to understand those easier than the others. But I've found that what tends to stick best is whatever works for the person speaking, so I like giving them the option to find the neutral that works for them.


----------



## Entropic

lolthevoidlol said:


> Thank you for the thoughtful response!
> 
> For me it was a bit different, I think because I never felt a connection to either. So figuring out what I was took a mentality of "am not" rather than "am". On an intellectual level I might be able to say "well if I had to choose one I'd be a dude".


Intellectually for me, it became the other way. If I have to choose then I'd rather not be anything at all because it meant I could remain as I am for most of the part without having to alter too much. I do feel I fall in a tricky spectrum in that I feel I am somewhere between agender and male but leaning towards male rather than agender. I keep thinking if I can go back to how I identified before as something more akin to agender except agender just isn't me. I was agender for a long period of time or how to call it, when I tried to not really give much of a fuck and not thinking much about it but it still felt uncomfortable. It was just better than the other option available at the time which was female so it wasn't really a solution but more like a quick fix. 



> But even that doesn't connect to my being even if, in a situation where someone absolutely refuses to recognize my genderless state, I'd tell them to use "he". And that's simply because a wrong "he" is still a bit novel compared to the decades of the wrong "she". But a thousand time yes to feeling limited and confined when trying to embrace being a woman.


Yeah, I understand that. I am not sure I feel comfortable with the idea of being called they, it, ze, what have you. It doesn't feel right for the same reason I used a genderless icon or went unmarked for a long period of time because I didn't know what else I was supposed to do since I felt male was off limits which in retrospect is quite stupid but it goes to show how rigid the roles really are, I suppose. 



> One thing is that I never felt confused or uncertain to my agender identity. I've certainly had doubts of the "well everybody has to be something, maybe nobody seems to understand this because it's not real, you should just accept that you're just a girl who doesn't like being a girl and get over yourself" type, but somehow those fleeting doubts didn't actually equal confusion- there's a deep down part that has never not known what I am. Plus those thoughts only come when I've been tired out from battling over my gender with others.


To me it was more that I tried to justify myself as being a tomboy or a masculine woman or a woman who just doesn't like the social role of being a woman since I didn't like that either. There are plenty of those people e.g. butch women who like to come across as male but otherwise experience themselves as female so I thought I must be one of those. 



> I think it was definitely compounded by Ni. I think I would have experienced this to some degree if I was Ni without trans or trans without Ni but it's doubled or somesuch with the combination.


Yeah, I do think there is a certain oblivious attitude to one's sense of physical state when you are an Ni dom and that certainly didn't help, I think. You see Si types having such acute awareness of their body at some level in a way I simply don't. 



> Dreams are interesting. In my dreams I'm genderless, but I often have very sexual dreams and at those times my dream body could be male or female or something inbetween.


I think I tend to dream of myself as female still when I dream about sex simply because I lack the experience of anything else. 



> God yes. And even more how it's a burden simply because it's there in your mind just about constantly. Some times I do think about saying "fuck it, I've lived in the shadows my whole life, this is just hard, I don't feel like fighting for my gender today, fuck it, I'll just go on as a 'woman' whatever". It's been hard.


Yeah, and I think perhaps in your situation in a sense it would be easier going back since you aren't doing any serious modification to your body as I am/would be doing. I read about a guy/gal who regretted their transition or seems to be regretting it, at least going on HRT and stuff and can't go back. Ouch. That's why I think the Swedish system fails in that it doesn't offer therapy - it just tries to gauge whether you fit the diagnostic label of being transsexual. 



> You're right that you can't really explain it. But something that I didn't even think about happened, which seemed to take a step towards understanding without explanation- once I started presenting androgynously even people who didn't really "get it" started making comments about how "this is so much more 'you'!" and "there's such a positive difference in you now".


Yeah, I've had people who are close to me say the same thing after I came out and I didn't really make things explicit or anything the like. Some FTMs have this story of crossdressing since a young age etc but I never did that. My first desire to crossdress came in my late teens but I pushed it aside. I do feel a lot more like myself now like, it's difficult to describe since I am fundamentally the same person but I feel like I am more genuine to myself now. It just fits and makes sense and it would be regardless of how I'd choose to present my own sense of gender e.g. femme or butch or whatever. Especially when I see myself and present myself and I see how my body's changing it feels so much more in line with how I somehow always envisioned myself though I didn't know that I did. I did have some vague sense of it but I didn't quite know what it was. 



> I actually don't have a preference beyond that it be neutral. I use ey/em/eir myself and tend to teach people that version or just tell them to use the singular they because people seem to understand those easier than the others. But I've found that what tends to stick best is whatever works for the person speaking, so I like giving them the option to find the neutral that works for them.


Hm, interesting. I haven't come across many agender folks so I was curious. The trans community is largely dominated by queer or binary people.


----------



## Metaplanar

lolthevoidlol said:


> Thank you for the thoughtful response!
> 
> For me it was a bit different, I think because I never felt a connection to either. So figuring out what I was took a mentality of "am not" rather than "am". On an intellectual level I might be able to say "well if I had to choose one I'd be a dude". But even that doesn't connect to my being even if, in a situation where someone absolutely refuses to recognize my genderless state, I'd tell them to use "he". And that's simply because a wrong "he" is still a bit novel compared to the decades of the wrong "she". But a thousand time yes to feeling limited and confined when trying to embrace being a woman.
> 
> One thing is that I never felt confused or uncertain to my agender identity. I've certainly had doubts of the "well everybody has to be something, maybe nobody seems to understand this because it's not real, you should just accept that you're just a girl who doesn't like being a girl and get over yourself" type, but somehow those fleeting doubts didn't actually equal confusion- there's a deep down part that has never not known what I am. Plus those thoughts only come when I've been tired out from battling over my gender with others.


Interesting. I just recently realized how I have even managed to basically tell people that I am agender before I had even accepted that this really appears to be a real gender identity thing (tm) that I might have to face and/or do something about. And the way I feel about this has been very constant, so I also can't really say I was confused or uncertain in that sense, either.

The way in which I have often been uncertain (and still sometimes am) is this: How do I know that how I feel is not how a woman feels? 
So I am uncomfortable with some aspects of what is in our culture said to be "femininity". But there are enough women who reject traditional gender roles and stereotypes. Rightly so. How can I really say that it is different for me?
So I happen to also be uncomfortable with some related aspects of my body - but aren't body image issues incredibly common? And also useless, who even cares as long as everything works and doesn't hurt. There's more important things than that kind of superficiality, and in the past, aggressively not-caring seemed like the best option. Maybe the only one.
I mean, maybe that whole gender identity thing is just a huge lie. Maybe it's just that psychological ingroup-outgroup phenomenon, and most people just identify with whatever they are told they are, and I just don't really buy into it because I'm unusually resistant to peer pressure or something. (isn't it always easy to believe your own experience is universal and other people are similar?)
If I am a woman, isn't the way I feel by definition just one of the ways a woman can feel?

So I suppose what I am uncertain about is how other people's experiences compare to mine, and the exact definition of words. I have to just believe when people tell me that they actually feel a "gender identity". The closest thing I have is a weird accumulation of preferences, dislikes, reactions, etc. that could be conveniently explained by an invisible common factor that might be gender. Or it might just be the way I am.

I also often told myself that, if I had to choose, I would choose to be a woman after all. The reasoning being that this way I can break stereotypes and disregard gender-related rules and have it count towards feminism or emancipation, maybe even seeming stronger or more independent for it, while men tend to get more quickly looked down upon for not being masculine enough. That was the best reason I could find, and of course I never allowed myself to maybe choose differently, because if I did, now that would be a problem, wouldn't it?



> I think it was definitely compounded by Ni. I think I would have experienced this to some degree if I was Ni without trans or trans without Ni but it's doubled or somesuch with the combination.


That's possible. As already mentioned, my "solution" for dealing with body issues was also to just force myself as deep into apathy regarding that as I could. That is, I cared about functionality and lack of pain, and all else was marked as irrelevant.
That was easy for me, considering that I had always preferred ideas and books and fantasy worlds to the here and now. Not caring about how other people see me also seemed relatively natural.
Obviously it didn't completely work, or this post probably wouldn't exist.

I am regularly surprised that apparently I do have a personal style, of sorts. I never consciously developed one.



> Dreams are interesting. In my dreams I'm genderless, but I often have very sexual dreams and at those times my dream body could be male or female or something inbetween.


Dreams are interesting indeed. In mine, I usually can't even say what sex my body would be, because it is just irrelevant. I don't pay any attention to that and it doesn't provide unpleasant surprises. In the rare cases where I can tell, I think it's probably almost 50/50, mostly dreaming about actually being a completely different person, maybe related to the gender of the main character of a book I'm reading or something, with a slight tendency towards female due to processing real life experiences.



> God yes. And even more how it's a burden simply because it's there in your mind just about constantly. Some times I do think about saying "fuck it, I've lived in the shadows my whole life, this is just hard, I don't feel like fighting for my gender today, fuck it, I'll just go on as a 'woman' whatever". It's been hard.
> 
> 
> You're right that you can't really explain it. But something that I didn't even think about happened, which seemed to take a step towards understanding without explanation- once I started presenting androgynously even people who didn't really "get it" started making comments about how "this is so much more 'you'!" and "there's such a positive difference in you now".


I'm still in the process of deciding how to progress from here.
Easiest would be to just go on pretending I identify as a woman. Well ok, that doesn't completely work anymore, as I have come out to some people, including family, but provided that I just go on with life as usual, without changing anything, that would basically still be in effect the same. I suppose I could actually live with that if I had to. I could until now, so it is possible. Being invisible is safe, as you say, and my dysphoria is relatively mild. Comparable to having a stone in my shoe, maybe. Slightly annoying, sometimes I forget to take care while walking and step on it hardly, but for the most part it is not absolutely terrible on a single day.
This does seem to be one of the rare cases where knowledge actually is a double-edged sword, though. Being consciously aware of the problem, and of the fact that it is not a necessary part of the human condition, makes it just that little bit harder to get my carefully-maintained apathy back. And the prospect of just going on like this forever... I don't like it. That small discomfort every single day accumulates.
But to actually make my gender expression at least somewhat ambiguous, I'd need to put actual effort into this. And take risks. And I'm not even sure how to do this. And there's still a part of me that wants to refuse to orient myself on other people's perceptions and expectations.
Or I could try to just disregard preconcieved notions and other people's perceptions altogether. Just try to do what I need to get comfortable in my own skin. Maybe that is enough. To that end, I have gotten myself a binder, and that's good, but not a long-term solution. But what options do I have in that department? There's surgery, but that's scary and risky, and seeing as I could have it much worse, I'm really not sure if it would be worth the risk. And even in the best case, I would end up still being seen as a woman most of the time, but having trouble with locker rooms and swimming - I mean, not needing to wear a bikini would be the best, but people would probably be a problem.

(...hi thread. I appear to be posting here at last.)


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Metaplanar said:


> The way in which I have often been uncertain (and still sometimes am) is this: How do I know that how I feel is not how a woman feels?
> So I am uncomfortable with some aspects of what is in our culture said to be "femininity". But there are enough women who reject traditional gender roles and stereotypes. Rightly so. How can I really say that it is different for me?
> So I happen to also be uncomfortable with some related aspects of my body - but aren't body image issues incredibly common? And also useless, who even cares as long as everything works and doesn't hurt. There's more important things than that kind of superficiality, and in the past, aggressively not-caring seemed like the best option. Maybe the only one.
> I mean, maybe that whole gender identity thing is just a huge lie. Maybe it's just that psychological ingroup-outgroup phenomenon, and* most* people just identify with whatever they are told they are, and I just don't really buy into it because I'm unusually resistant to peer pressure or something. (isn't it always easy to believe your own experience is universal and other people are similar?)


All good questions. I think my answers to these types of questions came from studying people who do have a clear sense of their gender- transexuals and strongly gendered cisgender people. People who know they are certain gender very clearly and who need to actively move towards that gender or, for the cis types, who know they would feel completely wrong as another gender/sex. There is clearly something here that does not exist in me.



> If I am a woman, isn't the way I feel by definition just one of the ways a woman can feel?


Since you are a female, could the way you feel by definition just be one of the ways a female can feel? That is, a perfectly legitimate experience for a female, without saying anything about gender. 



> So I suppose what I am uncertain about is how other people's experiences compare to mine, and the exact definition of words.* I have to just believe when people tell me that they actually feel a "gender identity".* The closest thing I have is a weird accumulation of preferences, dislikes, reactions, etc. that could be conveniently explained by an invisible common factor that might be gender. Or it might just be the way I am.
> 
> I also often told myself that, if I had to choose, I would choose to be a woman after all. The reasoning being that this way I can break stereotypes and disregard gender-related rules and have it count towards feminism or emancipation, maybe even seeming stronger or more independent for it, while men tend to get more quickly looked down upon for not being masculine enough. That was the best reason I could find, and of course I never allowed myself to maybe choose differently, because if I did, now that would be a problem, wouldn't it?


Same. I just have to believe that people do feel such a thing. Just like I have to believe that some people are dyslexic. I've never experienced dyslexia, can't really imagine it, but the evidence that it exists in others is there so it is what it is. 




> That's possible. As already mentioned, my "solution" for dealing with body issues was also to just force myself as deep into apathy regarding that as I could. That is,* I cared about functionality and lack of pain*, and all else was marked as irrelevant.
> That was easy for me, considering that I had always preferred ideas and books and fantasy worlds to the here and now. Not caring about how other people see me also seemed relatively natural.
> Obviously it didn't completely work, or this post probably wouldn't exist.
> 
> I am regularly surprised that apparently I do have a personal style, of sorts. I never consciously developed one.


Same, except now I've come to care about a new function- that of being seen for who I am. And in this function I find my body severely lacking.




> Dreams are interesting indeed. In mine, I usually can't even say what sex my body would be, because it is just irrelevant. I don't pay any attention to that and it doesn't provide unpleasant surprises. In the rare cases where I can tell, I think it's probably almost 50/50, mostly dreaming about actually being a completely different person, maybe related to the gender of the main character of a book I'm reading or something, with a slight tendency towards female due to processing real life experiences.


If you don't mind me saying, I looked at your profile and noted the asexual marker. So I think perhaps in your case the irrelevance of the body is even more pronounced. I'm a very sexual person so body tends to come up often enough >.> 



> I'm still in the process of deciding how to progress from here.
> Easiest would be to just go on pretending I identify as a woman. Well ok, that doesn't completely work anymore, as I have come out to some people, including family, but provided that I just go on with life as usual, without changing anything, that would basically still be in effect the same. I suppose I could actually live with that if I had to. I could until now, so it is possible. Being invisible is safe, as you say, and my dysphoria is relatively mild. Comparable to having a stone in my shoe, maybe. Slightly annoying, sometimes I forget to take care while walking and step on it hardly, but for the most part it is not absolutely terrible on a single day.
> This does seem to be one of the rare cases where knowledge actually is a double-edged sword, though. Being consciously aware of the problem, and of the fact that it is not a necessary part of the human condition, makes it just that little bit harder to get my carefully-maintained apathy back. And the prospect of just going on like this forever... I don't like it. *That small discomfort every single day accumulates.*
> But to actually make my gender expression at least somewhat ambiguous, I'd need to put actual effort into this. And take risks. And I'm not even sure how to do this. And there's still a part of me that wants to refuse to orient myself on other people's perceptions and expectations.
> Or I could try to just disregard preconcieved notions and other people's perceptions altogether. Just try to do what I need to get comfortable in my own skin. Maybe that is enough. To that end, I have gotten myself a binder, and that's good, but not a long-term solution. But what options do I have in that department? There's surgery, but that's scary and risky, and seeing as I could have it much worse, I'm really not sure if it would be worth the risk. And even in the best case, I would end up still being seen as a woman most of the time, but having trouble with locker rooms and swimming - I mean, not needing to wear a bikini would be the best, but people would probably be a problem.
> 
> (...hi thread. I appear to be posting here at last.)


Where to go from identity realization is a tough one. For us agender people there's literally nothing to transition to. There's no genderless body to set as a goal. Any moves one makes toward changing appearance such as hair and clothes end up feeling a bit superficial, which in itself can cast doubt on what you're doing. But the accumulated discomfort is an unfortunate fact. Changing my appearance is something I've put off for as long as I could, but eventually the desire became almost obsessive with how much it pressed on my consciousness. We lack a guide book of any kind really, unless you were blessed with the body type of those waif models who are all you see if you google "androgynous". I totally get wanting to say "fuck all y'all and your notions of gender, I am what I am". But that only lasts as far as the 5th "she" before I get upset again.

And welcome, glad to see you posting


----------



## Playful Proxy

You know you're trans when even your SO's phone starts autocorrecting to HRT, haha.


----------



## Metaplanar

lolthevoidlol said:


> All good questions. I think my answers to these types of questions came from studying people who do have a clear sense of their gender- transexuals and strongly gendered cisgender people. People who know they are certain gender very clearly and who need to actively move towards that gender or, for the cis types, who know they would feel completely wrong as another gender/sex. There is clearly something here that does not exist in me.
> 
> 
> Since you are a female, could the way you feel by definition just be one of the ways a female can feel? That is, a perfectly legitimate experience for a female, without saying anything about gender.
> 
> Same. I just have to believe that people do feel such a thing. Just like I have to believe that some people are dyslexic. I've never experienced dyslexia, can't really imagine it, but the evidence that it exists in others is there so it is what it is.
> 
> 
> 
> Same, except now I've come to care about a new function- that of being seen for who I am. And in this function I find my body severely lacking.


Exactly. Right now, the stance I'm taking is that apparently our current cultural context is describing experiences similar to mine with the word "agender", which in turn means that "female" does not describe me in this context. This feels comfortable because it allows me to define myself independently of meaningless physical characteristics that I am apparently supposed to identify with in a profound way.

There's another argument I am thinking about, though. One that kept me trying to officially identify as female for so long despite not actually feeling like it describes me: Circular logic. Words are in the end arbitrary, and especially gender is really hard to define. A lot of the definition for female gender and the connected expectations seems to be connected merely to stereotypes. Maybe it would be more beneficial to identify as female for the express purpose of breaking the stereotypes, to extend the definition of what female is. Because by just defining myself as other... isn't that sort of strengthening the stereotypes, making the definition narrower? Of course this again falls flat when I believe that the majority of (cis) people really feel a gender identity. But do they, really? Or is that actually a rare phenomenon?
For now I'm just fed up with this approach and putting my own comfort above idealistic notions of changing definitions. In the end, making gender independent from physical sex and adding various identities along the spectrum might well have a similar effect to broadening the current ideas of what a "man" or a "woman" is into meaninglessness.



> If you don't mind me saying, I looked at your profile and noted the asexual marker. So I think perhaps in your case the irrelevance of the body is even more pronounced. I'm a very sexual person so body tends to come up often enough >.>


I don't mind at all, and that's a definite possibility. It's difficult to completely separate these two for me, as there are interactions and connections. Am I uncomfortable with having breasts because they're just not supposed to be there, or am I mainly uncomfortable with them being seen by others as a sexual characteristic? Are periods annoying because they just are (ask any cis woman, no one really likes them), or do I find it extra annoying due to gender, or is that actually part of being a sex-repulsed asexual, so that my body preparing for making a baby and telling me it's ready to have the sex now just seems like the weirdest thing? Or would sex (involving me) maybe seem less repulsive if I wasn't stuck in a female body?
I just don't know, and my best guess is that neither is caused by the other, but both are stabilizing each other.



> Where to go from identity realization is a tough one. For us agender people there's literally nothing to transition to. There's no genderless body to set as a goal. Any moves one makes toward changing appearance such as hair and clothes end up feeling a bit superficial, which in itself can cast doubt on what you're doing. But the accumulated discomfort is an unfortunate fact. Changing my appearance is something I've put off for as long as I could, but eventually the desire became almost obsessive with how much it pressed on my consciousness. We lack a guide book of any kind really, unless you were blessed with the body type of those waif models who are all you see if you google "androgynous". I totally get wanting to say "fuck all y'all and your notions of gender, I am what I am". But that only lasts as far as the 5th "she" before I get upset again.
> 
> And welcome, glad to see you posting


Yeah, that's it. And since I have never really actively tried to fit in as a woman, I just kind of sort of do by default, changing my hair and clothing for the express purpose of adjusting my gender presentation also feels like a sort of failure, in a sense. Like I'm finally giving in to those outside standards, sacrificing my own preferences for other people's sake. But not doing that also feels like giving in to that pressure, like taking the easy way out and sacrificing genuine self-expression (in terms others might understand) to the security of invisibility and going with the flow. But if any way is wrong, any way is also right, isn't it? And since I have tried the latter and it's lacking, I think it's probably time to try the former now.


----------



## Elyasis

-Ephemeral- said:


> By the way, unrelated to the rest, but what pronoun do you prefer? Ze or they or something else? I think I tend to fall back on they when referring to people whose identities I don't know (I sometimes do anyway), but there are preferences here too, obviously.


As for me I have no preference, so long as they don't make any assumptions based on what they choose to call me. I guess I would just rather my name be spoken every time and skip the pronoun problem altogether. I have my friends call me J as it's fairly ambiguous and is the first letter of my name.



lolthevoidlol said:


> We lack a guide book of any kind really, unless you were blessed with the body type of those waif models who are all you see if you google "androgynous".


*cough* Not quite waif like but pretty close. Trust me when I say it doesn't really help because it just make them that much more determined to sort you into their little boxes. I also have a prominent adam's apple for a female. Partly due to my thin frame, partly due to my hormones being slightly weighted towards testosterone. I also have low estrogen though so it's all kinds of messed up.

@_Metaplanar_ @_lolthevoidlol_ Just realized we three have sea creatures as our pics. Maybe we all are just Transatlantic! Ba Dum Tish!


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Metaplanar said:


> There's another argument I am thinking about, though. One that kept me trying to officially identify as female for so long despite not actually feeling like it describes me: Circular logic. Words are in the end arbitrary, and especially gender is really hard to define. A lot of the definition for female gender and the connected expectations seems to be connected merely to stereotypes. Maybe it would be more beneficial to identify as female for the express purpose of breaking the stereotypes, to extend the definition of what female is. Because by just defining myself as other... isn't that sort of strengthening the stereotypes, making the definition narrower? Of course this again falls flat when I believe that the majority of (cis) people really feel a gender identity. But do they, really? Or is that actually a rare phenomenon?
> For now I'm just fed up with this approach and putting my own comfort above idealistic notions of changing definitions. In the end, making gender independent from physical sex and adding various identities along the spectrum might well have a similar effect to broadening the current ideas of what a "man" or a "woman" is into meaninglessness.
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's it. And since I have never really actively tried to fit in as a woman, I just kind of sort of do by default, changing my hair and clothing for the express purpose of adjusting my gender presentation also feels like a sort of failure, in a sense. Like I'm finally giving in to those outside standards, sacrificing my own preferences for other people's sake. But not doing that also feels like giving in to that pressure, like taking the easy way out and sacrificing genuine self-expression (in terms others might understand) to the security of invisibility and going with the flow. But if any way is wrong, any way is also right, isn't it? And since I have tried the latter and it's lacking, I think it's probably time to try the former now.


From my informal polling, the majority of cis people really do feel a gender identity. Even if they haven't really thought about it before, once they do in conversation with me it becomes readily identifiable. For the few who, once brought to their attention, realize they don't really have a connection to gender that becomes a whole new conversation.

As I read you, I find myself distilling your thoughts into two different "choices". One being to fuck the stereotypes/gender boxes by still identifying as a woman even though it doesn't exactly feel like you. The other being to fuck the gender boxes by identifying as something that does actually feel more like you. Put that way, and given that you have no responsibility to society in this and certainly don't owe it your gender identity, it's hard for me to see the argument against the option that feels more like your true self.

Granted, that's eliminating all the other bits and struggles that pop up once you decide to take this whole "outside the binary" by the horns and go for it. But it can be helpful to get back to basics and go from there. I know how easy it is for this all to become a giant muddled thought mess in your head.


----------



## Metaplanar

lolthevoidlol said:


> From my informal polling, the majority of cis people really do feel a gender identity. Even if they haven't really thought about it before, once they do in conversation with me it becomes readily identifiable. For the few who, once brought to their attention, realize they don't really have a connection to gender that becomes a whole new conversation.


That's good to know. Actually the results of my informal polling have come back similarly, but given that my sample size is small and I have already discovered one person who claims he just doesn't care either way and also doesn't get gender identity, I couldn't really be sure. Of course that one person appears to have thought about this before, is also the most informed person regarding asexuality I have ever met irl without being asexual himself, and this is pretty much in line with what I already suspected before that conversation happened.



> As I read you, I find myself distilling your thoughts into two different "choices". One being to fuck the stereotypes/gender boxes by still identifying as a woman even though it doesn't exactly feel like you. The other being to fuck the gender boxes by identifying as something that does actually feel more like you. Put that way, and given that you have no responsibility to society in this and certainly don't owe it your gender identity, it's hard for me to see the argument against the option that feels more like your true self.
> 
> Granted, that's eliminating all the other bits and struggles that pop up once you decide to take this whole "outside the binary" by the horns and go for it. But it can be helpful to get back to basics and go from there. I know how easy it is for this all to become a giant muddled thought mess in your head.


Yes, those two choices is what it comes down to, it seems. And I have pretty much already made exactly that decision. It's just that every now and then, I realize that I have no idea where to start and where I will even end up if I go down that path, and all I have to do for the other option is literally nothing.

Of course looking at it another way, I have already started somewhere. Told some people, discussed stuff, mostly. Bought that binder and determined that actually yes, having a flat chest is better and I don't suddenly realize how wrong I was, not at all. Made contact with my university's queer department. Invented a neat German neutral pronoun that I plan to show them at the next meeting, so that it might finally get tested. Things are, as they tend to do, progressing slowly. Very slowly. Except for those moments when I extrapolate where that slow progress might lead in the end and freak myself out a little with the possibilities.


----------



## Entropic

lolol INTJ hijack though I am feeling alone in the gender spectrum here: 



Metaplanar said:


> Exactly. Right now, the stance I'm taking is that apparently our current cultural context is describing experiences similar to mine with the word "agender", which in turn means that "female" does not describe me in this context. This feels comfortable because it allows me to define myself independently of meaningless physical characteristics that I am apparently supposed to identify with in a profound way.
> 
> There's another argument I am thinking about, though. One that kept me trying to officially identify as female for so long despite not actually feeling like it describes me: Circular logic. Words are in the end arbitrary, and especially gender is really hard to define. A lot of the definition for female gender and the connected expectations seems to be connected merely to stereotypes. Maybe it would be more beneficial to identify as female for the express purpose of breaking the stereotypes, to extend the definition of what female is. Because by just defining myself as other... isn't that sort of strengthening the stereotypes, making the definition narrower? Of course this again falls flat when I believe that the majority of (cis) people really feel a gender identity. But do they, really? Or is that actually a rare phenomenon?
> For now I'm just fed up with this approach and putting my own comfort above idealistic notions of changing definitions. In the end, making gender independent from physical sex and adding various identities along the spectrum might well have a similar effect to broadening the current ideas of what a "man" or a "woman" is into meaninglessness.


You are right in a sense that there is obviously a lot of social stuff and in relation to that also physical, stuff, pertaining to gender roles and expectations and I think for any FtX experience that we are talking about, the constant question of "aren't you just one of those people who are female but just don't identify with female social roles?" to be the biggest problem. As you say, it's very common for women as a large category of people as a part of women's empowerment, to feel a need to break out of gender conformity in this way. 

I think an important aspect for myself was that I looked at what it would be like to feel like you are a woman, since a big breaking point for myself was when it was suggested that I'd undergo surgery by removing my ovaries and how happy this made me feel. It was a combination of being fed up with a malfunctioning body but also happiness in that I realized that at some level I had never identified with the functioning of my ovaries and what role they fulfilled in terms of reproduction and gender. At some level I simply examined the idea that for a lot of women menstruation is something they don't necessarily appreciate at all, but I think the fact that so many still experience their gender as being in question or experience unhappiness with having their ovaries and/or uterus removed as indication that there is something about their existences in their body, regardless of how poorly they function, that fulfills some sense of satisfaction or fulfillment when it comes to their identity. Perhaps older women who feel this role is fulfilled for them may not mind as much anymore, but for younger women I realized my experience was extremely atypical. 

Like you, I tried to rationalize and look at it from the perspective "well, perhaps I'm just one of those atypical women, you can be a woman and be happy being an atypical one", but at some level that just didn't work. I didn't want to live my life as a woman. I ended up thinking about where I fell within the trans spectrum because transsexual was the thing I wanted to be or think I was the least. Many reasons but one of them being that it's obviously the biggest or greatest change in many ways. It's one thing to stay in a gray spectrum but another to move all the way to the opposite side. You would need to change so many things like name, pronouns, clothing etc and then there's the whole physical alteration and legal aspects too. I mean seriously, who in their right mind who want to do this if they could absolutely choose? 

Essentially it boiled down to the idea of "am I a man or something else?" and I realized that "else" is what I've been living my life as when I tried to run away from this issue by not facing with it and dealing with it up front. I had a brief moment in my late teens where I did some minor research and I thought I was bigender or something because I experienced myself as being male on the inside but body was obviously female so I thought that was I was but I for some reason ended up dropping that idea at some point and stopped identifying myself as such for reasons I am not sure. I stuck with this unknown tag instead. Also, this was in 2006 so information about transgender was much more sparse than it is now, since trans had yet to become a thing. At that time homosexuality was the thing. I don't even think I came across the word transgender back then. It's really unfortunate sometimes how lack of information can really be life-changing in this way. I really do regret I didn't transition when I was 18 because a lot of problems I'm facing with now and have to live with for the rest of my life such as body shape and height cannot be undone. If I had received HRT when I was 18-19 or at least received blockers this could have been prevented to a very large degree. 

There are also people who may experience themselves as an internal gender that does not match their body but are still happy with their bodies. I am not sure how that works since I don't feel that way, just like there are people who feel out of place socially but otherwise happy physically. The butch lesbian experience is a great example of what I'm thinking about. I know I'm trans because there is such a distinct difference between being butch and a trans(man)person and while it's difficult to place into words it's really tangible. I know I am simply not like them. I do not feel like they do. I actually find their approach towards things quite mind-boggling as it's something I could never do and be happy with. Similarly, femme FtM is equally mind-boggling, and the queer group while more appealing is often so rife with political statements and while that may work for some it doesn't work for me. I am not here to make a political statement. I just want to live my fucking life and be happy, for fuck's sake. As much as I am aware of politics at the end of the day I just want some piece of mind. 

I am not sure where I am going with this anymore so I'll shut up but I wanted to comment on that I think it's probably common for many FtX to feel confusion over their identity in the sense that "what if you are just atypical for a woman?" is a common line of reasoning when you are trying to figure yourself out, because the current feminist discourse creates this room (for error) where women can be allowed to experience social discomfort while still retaining their (sense of) female-ness.


----------



## Entropic

Flatlander said:


> I'll set something up. Post a new thread or put it here?


We can set it up here but do we really have enough subjects to make such a study on PerC? Though the problem with other fora is that most people don't know their actual cognitive type outside of a test and it would be arduous to type all these people just to confirm, to say the least.

With that said I would do it but I wonder how meaningful it'd be long-term.


----------



## Flatlander

-Ephemeral- said:


> We can set it up here but do we really have enough subjects to make such a study on PerC? Though the problem with other fora is that most people don't know their actual cognitive type outside of a test and it would be arduous to type all these people just to confirm, to say the least.
> 
> With that said I would do it but I wonder how meaningful it'd be long-term.


I'm cool with just doing it here, for now, as sort of a preliminary and community study. There aren't that many but there are enough that it may suggest a trend.


----------



## Metaplanar

I sort of always figured I'd just be happy with everything physically once I grew up and the sexual urges set in (ha ha) and the rest was just a dislike of stereotypes.
I just expected that I would eventually fall in love with someone and enjoy being seen as a sexually attractive woman by them and want to have a child even if nothing about that seemed like something I'd want. But that's just the biological imperative of procreation and the instincts would certainly make me change my mind, right? And dreading that is silly, since when it would finally happen, I would like it, as people do.

So whenever I had a moment of being upset about any of it, I told myself that a) eventually I would certainly be thankful for everything and b) I was luckier than I had any reason to expect anyways, growing up in a society in which women are equal to men (even if some inequalities linger), having had more time than most before my period set in and not having huge boobs. So I should count my blessings and stop complaining. And anyways, you have to learn to accept things you can't change.

I wonder how early I might have been able to make the connection, had I known about nonbinary genders earlier. Might have been anything from as young as 4 years or something, when I remember thinking with all the clarity of that age that, since blue was for boys and red for girls, that meant I had to choose the yellow pieces for a board game.
But then I'd probably still have figured that since that's a rare and weird thing, it would be highly unlikely for me to be like that and I'd probably grow out of it. And the end result would be pretty much exactly the same.
And considering that it still took me over five years from the moment when I created a gender-neutral character and decided "she" would go by female pronouns because "if it's good enough for me, that has to do"...


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

You what to the funny part?
I was always a tomboy, female, but a tomboy. I hanged out with boys so much, they started treating me as one and people started saying I'm one and that confused me more than anything else. Now I don't know how properly refer to myself gender wise. I was born female, yes, but how do I don't know that I'm not really a guy? Confusing shit.


----------



## Flatlander

Aya the Whaler said:


> You what to the funny part?
> I was always a tomboy, female, but a tomboy. I hanged out with boys so much, they started treating me as one and people started saying I'm one and that confused me more than anything else. Now I don't know how properly refer to myself gender wise. I was born female, yes, but how do I don't know that I'm not really a guy? Confusing shit.


It is a matter of your own feeling on the issue - you know when you know, not when other people have told you. I consider things like "tomboy" to be misnomers because people who identify as female can be masculine and people who identify as male can be effeminate, yet still not be incorrectly identified in their respective genders if they don't feel wrong.

It's fine to explore if you want to explore, just realize that it doesn't stop until *you* are satisfied.


----------



## Ace Face

@-Ephemeral-, this is what I meant 

http://personalitycafe.com/sex-relationships/298794-transgender-only-whats-your-cognitive-type.html


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Flatlander said:


> It is a matter of your own feeling on the issue - you know when you know, not when other people have told you. I consider things like "tomboy" to be misnomers because people who identify as female can be masculine and people who identify as male can be effeminate, yet still not be incorrectly identified in their respective genders if they don't feel wrong.
> 
> It's fine to explore if you want to explore, just realize that it doesn't stop until *you* are satisfied.


Quite, but the problem is when I come to the conclusion that not even I'm sure. What am I? Sometimes I want to be one and other times I don't want to be anything at all and I really don't think I fit in the genderfuild area? It's very messy on my head.


----------



## Entropic

Aya the Whaler said:


> Quite, but the problem is when I come to the conclusion that not even I'm sure. What am I? Sometimes I want to be one and other times I don't want to be anything at all and I really don't think I fit in the genderfuild area? It's very messy on my head.


Why not since this sounds very genderfluid to me? I mean, that's the definition of it - gender identity is fluid so it changes from moment to moment. There is no real sense of stability to it.


----------



## Flatlander

Aya the Whaler said:


> Quite, but the problem is when I come to the conclusion that not even I'm sure. What am I? Sometimes I want to be one and other times I don't want to be anything at all and I really don't think I fit in the genderfuild area? It's very messy on my head.


I'm with eph on this one, that _is_ genderfluid basically by definition. No set gender identity.

What is your idea of genderfluid, that you didn't think you fit it?


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Flatlander said:


> I'm with eph on this one, that _is_ genderfluid basically by definition. No set gender identity.
> 
> What is your idea of genderfluid, that you didn't think you fit it?


I don't like the idea of being everything at once, confuses me even more what already I'm. Nothing really changes when I feel 'male'. I still going to suffer when I'm my period and when I feel 'female' I'm still not going to wear a dress. So, pretty much nothing changes I remain myself physically.
I've to speak to some of these people and they always say that they change their looks radically to look the part. 
I don't know how to act like a girl either. I can't feel like something I'm not sure what it is. Just because I wear a dress on the king's birthday doesn't mean I can act like a woman.
I've been trying to act/look like a woman, but I really can't. I look too young for the part. I look 16 not 22. I can't wear that fancy clothing that would maybe make feel better because it would look horrible on me. So I remain with my more make clothing but then most people think it's time for me to become a woman but I don't look like how can I feel and be treated like one.
I have nothing against treated as a bro, it was the best thing that happened to me, but when strangers treat like a kid no matter what you wear is a bit hard no? I recently even got problems when I went to buy cigars for my mother because I look young. I can't enter in some bars alone to meet up with friends because I look young.
How to feel like a woman when you're treated like you're 16 years old and just got to high school?
When I dress more masculine I'm treated with a little more respect. I don't know if it makes me older but people don't treat me like a child that much.
I don't know. It confuses me. I don't really know what is not be female. My fiancée sees me as female, but I really haven't told him, he has enough problems on his own.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Welp, took the SO with me to see the psych. He asked her what it was about me that made staying with me worth it even through all the trans stuff. I apparently didn't get the hint when she responded, "Because I think I've found my person." I obliviously told her in the car going home that if she'd ever thought she'd be happier with someone else, that I wanted her to do it. She kinda brushed it off. Since I didn't get the hint, she later last night gave me a more direct response. "Just thought you should know, if it's alright with you, I've got a finger on your left hand reserved for a ring." 

So in case anyone's curious, I've kinda been randomly smiling, blushing like mad, and trying not to cry all day.


----------



## Entropic

Aya the Whaler said:


> I don't like the idea of being everything at once, confuses me even more what already I'm. Nothing really changes when I feel 'male'. I still going to suffer when I'm my period and when I feel 'female' I'm still not going to wear a dress. So, pretty much nothing changes I remain myself physically.
> I've to speak to some of these people and they always say that they change their looks radically to look the part.
> I don't know how to act like a girl either. I can't feel like something I'm not sure what it is. Just because I wear a dress on the king's birthday doesn't mean I can act like a woman.
> I've been trying to act/look like a woman, but I really can't. I look too young for the part. I look 16 not 22. I can't wear that fancy clothing that would maybe make feel better because it would look horrible on me. So I remain with my more make clothing but then most people think it's time for me to become a woman but I don't look like how can I feel and be treated like one.
> I have nothing against treated as a bro, it was the best thing that happened to me, but when strangers treat like a kid no matter what you wear is a bit hard no? I recently even got problems when I went to buy cigars for my mother because I look young. I can't enter in some bars alone to meet up with friends because I look young.
> How to feel like a woman when you're treated like you're 16 years old and just got to high school?
> When I dress more masculine I'm treated with a little more respect. I don't know if it makes me older but people don't treat me like a child that much.
> I don't know. It confuses me. I don't really know what is not be female. My fiancée sees me as female, but I really haven't told him, he has enough problems on his own.


Remember that you are you and not anyone else though 
If you experience a fluid sense of gender it's that regardless of how others who say they are genderfluid experience themselves. Not everyone will fit a box and the greatest lie we're told is that there actually is a box to break.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

-Ephemeral- said:


> Remember that you are you and not anyone else though
> If you experience a fluid sense of gender it's that regardless of how others who say they are genderfluid experience themselves. Not everyone will fit a box and the greatest lie we're told is that there actually is a box to break.


I understand, but it hard not to relate to anyone. No one understands how hard it is.


----------



## Jennywocky

Playful Proxy said:


> Welp, took the SO with me to see the psych. He asked her what it was about me that made staying with me worth it even through all the trans stuff. I apparently didn't get the hint when she responded, "Because I think I've found my person." I obliviously told her in the car going home that if she'd ever thought she'd be happier with someone else, that I wanted her to do it. She kinda brushed it off. Since I didn't get the hint, she later last night gave me a more direct response. "Just thought you should know, if it's alright with you, I've got a finger on your left hand reserved for a ring."
> 
> So in case anyone's curious, I've kinda been randomly smiling, blushing like mad, and trying not to cry all day.


That makes me feel pretty good. I appreciate reading stories like this, it reminds me that there is still love and goodness in the world. It inspires me for the future.

I'm not mad at my ex, even though our divorce finally finalized in April 2014. And it was a relationship with some issues even outside this complication. And I'm not really attracted to women in general at this point. But I felt a lot of disappointment on some levels when it was clear that the decision to find some sanity for myself invariably meant we were through. I think despite my preference being a Kinsey 2 (probably), I was more open to continuing than my ex was because of the life we had shared together. But for my ex, the outcome was all rather set in stone. So while I don't see the years as wasted, the times we had that were good were good in themselves (and formative); but at the same times, it's also like they just kind of vanish because they no longer contribute to an ongoing relationship. All that time and effort is finished. Maybe I'm a closet idealist, but when you find real love, I just think you should grab a hold of it and yell it from the rooftops and never let go.

I wish you guys all the best and hope it just gets better and better for you both. Believe in her -- it sounds like she believes in you.


----------



## Entropic

Aya the Whaler said:


> I understand, but it hard not to relate to anyone. No one understands how hard it is.


I know because it makes us doubt if our experiences are true. Sometimes we need to walk on our own though, and trust in what we feel regardless of what others say.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

-Ephemeral- said:


> I know because it makes us doubt if our experiences are true. Sometimes we need to walk on our own though, and trust in what we feel regardless of what others say.


That's very true. I need to trust myself more often, but it's not easy.


----------



## So Long So Long

So, I haven't posted in here in like a month or so because I've been super busy but I wanted to do an update post, so hey again!

On Thursday I went with my parents to visit and take a tour of my new university and it was super awesome and exciting to be honest. I've literally yet to meet a single rude person from admissions to registrar and the housing department. The campus is even more gorgeous than it was in pictures and there's a lot of cool stuff going on. Also an awesome research lab for social science students! 

This is probably starting to sound like it has no relation whatsoever to me being transgender but it really does. They've been so very helpful with everything and I can definitely tell they've dealt with trans students on campus before. I'll be rooming as male and my student ID will say Matthew and male even though I've been unable to legally change either of those things yet unfortunately. I'm really excited about starting school without pretty much anyone knowing in January! It's a good clean start. 

I'm also about to hit 22 months on T, which is insane! Looking back a hell of a lot has changed in these almost two years and I'm kinda proud of myself. Now if I could just get that top surgery out of the way...


----------



## Playful Proxy

So Long So Long said:


> So, I haven't posted in here in like a month or so because I've been super busy but I wanted to do an update post, so hey again!
> 
> On Thursday I went with my parents to visit and take a tour of my new university and it was super awesome and exciting to be honest. I've literally yet to meet a single rude person from admissions to registrar and the housing department. The campus is even more gorgeous than it was in pictures and there's a lot of cool stuff going on. Also an awesome research lab for social science students!
> 
> This is probably starting to sound like it has no relation whatsoever to me being transgender but it really does. They've been so very helpful with everything and I can definitely tell they've dealt with trans students on campus before. I'll be rooming as male and my student ID will say Matthew and male even though I've been unable to legally change either of those things yet unfortunately. I'm really excited about starting school without pretty much anyone knowing in January! It's a good clean start.
> 
> I'm also about to hit 22 months on T, which is insane! Looking back a hell of a lot has changed in these almost two years and I'm kinda proud of myself. Now if I could just get that top surgery out of the way...



I'm really happy that worked out for you the way it did.  I'll be transferring to finish my degree soon (took a 6 month hiatus working full-time) and I wonder if they'd be willing to pull something like that with me. At that point I'll about ~8 months HRT, long hair, laser, etc. Difference is, parents basically told me they'd kick me out if I started dressing fem...at all. I'm allowed to do laser, and I'm allowed to keep taking HRT (both of which I pay for). So...maybe I'll have to andro it the first year until I can get a hang of clothes and stuff.


----------



## Flatlander

Playful Proxy said:


> I'm really happy that worked out for you the way it did.  I'll be transferring to finish my degree soon (took a 6 month hiatus working full-time) and I wonder if they'd be willing to pull something like that with me. At that point I'll about ~8 months HRT, long hair, laser, etc. Difference is, parents basically told me they'd kick me out if I started dressing fem...at all. I'm allowed to do laser, and I'm allowed to keep taking HRT (both of which I pay for). So...maybe I'll have to andro it the first year until I can get a hang of clothes and stuff.


How do they figure on allowing you to keep taking HRT and doing laser, but not dressing like a female? Does not compute.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Flatlander said:


> How do they figure on allowing you to keep taking HRT and doing laser, but not dressing like a female? Does not compute.


Tbh, I don' t even. *raises hands*. I'll be out of here soon enough. This is probably immature as hell, but I'm essentially refusing to eat meals in the hopes they'll get the hint that I'm serious. Considering that I cope with stress by losing my appetite to begin with, it's pretty easy.


----------



## Jennywocky

Playful Proxy said:


> Tbh, I don' t even. *raises hands*. I'll be out of here soon enough. This is probably immature as hell, but I'm essentially refusing to eat meals in the hopes they'll get the hint that I'm serious. Considering that I cope with stress by losing my appetite to begin with, it's pretty easy.


God, dealing with parents can be hard even if you're dependent on them. I'm glad I was not, by the time I finally moved forward, but my dad didn't speak to me for the last five years of his life and left me with that when he finally passed on. 

Sometimes you just gotta do whatever it is you have to do for yourself, and leave some things behind if they drag you down.

It sounds like on the large scheme of things, if you can leave "soon enough," then you can make it regardless of their opinion. Even at the point I transitioned, it was still devastating to be viewed so negatively by my father and cut out of his life... but now I'm alive, he is not, and his definition of me does not control me, and my mom has come around over the years and accepts me as her daughter. Life goes on.


----------



## -Alpha-

So Long So Long said:


> So, I haven't posted in here in like a month or so because I've been super busy but I wanted to do an update post, so hey again!
> 
> On Thursday I went with my parents to visit and take a tour of my new university and it was super awesome and exciting to be honest. I've literally yet to meet a single rude person from admissions to registrar and the housing department. The campus is even more gorgeous than it was in pictures and there's a lot of cool stuff going on. Also an awesome research lab for social science students!
> 
> This is probably starting to sound like it has no relation whatsoever to me being transgender but it really does. They've been so very helpful with everything and I can definitely tell they've dealt with trans students on campus before. I'll be rooming as male and my student ID will say Matthew and male even though I've been unable to legally change either of those things yet unfortunately. I'm really excited about starting school without pretty much anyone knowing in January! It's a good clean start.
> 
> I'm also about to hit 22 months on T, which is insane! Looking back a hell of a lot has changed in these almost two years and I'm kinda proud of myself. Now if I could just get that top surgery out of the way...


I am not transgendered, but I have read this post about 3 times in the past week and am out of my mind with how positive it is..


----------



## Strayfire

I wish I was brave enough for a gender change. Scared of surgery.

Goshness. 

I never knew I could get reasonable breasts by taking estrogen. 

This is very tempting.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

strayfire said:


> I wish I was brave enough for a gender change. Scared of surgery.
> 
> Goshness.
> 
> I never knew I could get reasonable breasts by taking estrogen.
> 
> This is very tempting.


All I can say is think very well about it. Of you like the idea of being female go for it, but do it for yourself not for others.


----------



## Imaginary Friend

My mom believes that I will always be her precious daughter who will one day marry a man and bear children. 

It kills me that she says, "You're wrong, it's wrong! It's against nature! I don't want you to burn in hell — God will save you, you will be normal." when I assert her to call me Jayden, not *that* name. She refuses to a call me Jayden because it's a "boy" name. I'm wasting my time, I'm wasting breath hoping she will eventually accept and support me. *BONUS*: I'm an asexual person who plans on adopting a cat and child, so there goes my mom's ideal perception of me.

My friends believe that there is an 'old' and 'new' me.

It kills me that they say, "When you act like your old self, you're being a girl. When you act like your new self, you're being a boy. I know that you're supposed to be a guy, but you just act like the old you sometimes... I don't understand why you also have to hate your body either." I'm not a girl, I'm not a boy. I thought I was a boy, but I'm just a person. Whether I wear a dress or a tuxedo, I'm still a person. I'm still... me.

A Gender Non-conforming Asexual? Consider myself an amoeba then: microscopic... and sometimes invisible.
A lot of heart, lung, and stomach aches with some occasional depression and anxiety wasn't fun. 

However, let not their words slash my heart because life will move on, and the pain is momentary. 
Top surgery is top on my list for my transition, and hormonal therapy is a high consideration. 

I'm super glad this thread exists and includes Non-binary people who also identify as transgender.


----------



## Strayfire

Onya Jayden! 

Many hugs for you.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Imaginary Friend said:


> My mom believes that I will always be her precious daughter who will one day marry a man and bear children.
> 
> It kills me that she says, "You're wrong, it's wrong! It's against nature! I don't want you to burn in hell — God will save you, you will be normal." when I assert her to call me Jayden, not *that* name. She refuses to a call me Jayden because it's a "boy" name. I'm wasting my time, I'm wasting breath hoping she will eventually accept and support me. *BONUS*: I'm an asexual person who plans on adopting a cat and child, so there goes my mom's ideal perception of me.
> 
> My friends believe that there is an 'old' and 'new' me.
> 
> It kills me that they say, "When you act like your old self, you're being a girl. When you act like your new self, you're being a boy. I know that you're supposed to be a guy, but you just act like the old you sometimes... I don't understand why you also have to hate your body either." I'm not a girl, I'm not a boy. I thought I was a boy, but I'm just a person. Whether I wear a dress or a tuxedo, I'm still a person. I'm still... me.
> 
> A Gender Non-conforming Asexual? Consider myself an amoeba then: microscopic... and sometimes invisible.
> A lot of heart, lung, and stomach aches with some occasional depression and anxiety wasn't fun.
> 
> However, let not their words slash my heart because life will move on, and the pain is momentary.
> Top surgery is top on my list for my transition, and hormonal therapy is a high consideration.
> 
> I'm super glad this thread exists and includes Non-binary people who also identify as transgender.


I'm sorry that happens. It's hard for people who aren't used to this to understand it. I had a hard time understanding it when I first meet my fiancée but now I just role with it. I don't even remember his birth name.

People care a lot about how you look, some don't even care about who are as long as you look right. I'm not transgender, I dress like a boy (delicatessens maybe?) a lot and I get shit because I'm dressing like a boy. My personality doesn't change but looks do and suddenly everyone either respects me a lot or gives me shit because I'm not dressing like I should.

If you need someone to listen to you, you can always come to me. I'll listen.


----------



## Flatlander

@_Imaginary Friend_

Rule of thumb: People who think purely in dichotomy can't understand those who transcend it. It sounds like that stuff people say about you is their attempt to rationalize you, which they can't do. Hurt caused by that is the unintentional hurt that a dog feeling threatened inflicts when it bites you, rather than the malicious hurt of a torturer. You go against how they _instinctually_ think.

Also, I wouldn't expect them to understand the need for body modification either, which is a whole other beast to try to explain. I've started using an analogy to being put in a cat body with your human self/mind. Something with similarity would result, just in an extremely exaggerated way - you wouldn't have the facilities you think you should, you would end up incapable of expressing yourself, and it's a problem to which most of the world would be blind because how you look (like a cat) fools them 100%. It seems to get the point across a little better, if still not perfectly.

I really like your forum handle.


----------



## Imaginary Friend

@_strayfire_ 

Thank you for the wishing of many hugs.

@_Aya Saves the World_

Thank you for your empathy, and I will gladly contact you if I ever need someone to listen to me.

@_Flatlander_ 

Thank you for those wise words and the compliment. 
The analogy you're using is brilliant. 

This gives me a lot of strength.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Imaginary Friend said:


> @_Aya Saves the World_
> 
> Thank you for your empathy, and I will gladly contact you if I ever need someone to listen to me.


You're most welcome.


----------



## Flatlander

Imaginary Friend said:


> @_Flatlander_
> 
> Thank you for those wise words and the compliment.
> The analogy you're using is brilliant.
> 
> This gives me a lot of strength.


I hope my thoughts find use in your life.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

The Nonbinary Bisexual — Agender as a presence rather than an absence


----------



## Playful Proxy

Penis. That is all.


----------



## Flatlander

Playful Proxy said:


> Penis. That is all.


All I need.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Playful Proxy said:


> Penis. That is all.


A penis for everybody who needs one.


----------



## Jennywocky

Aya Saves the World said:


> A penis for everybody who needs one.


Now there's a catchy campaign slogan!


----------



## Flatlander

Aya Saves the World said:


> A penis for everybody who needs one.


Don't forget vaginas for everyone who needs those, too.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Flatlander said:


> Don't forget vaginas for everyone who needs those, too.


Genitalia for everyone who needs it. Transgender awareness campaign.


----------



## The Chameleon

*permanantly joins the thread*

Hello, hi.


----------



## spacewaves

If my boyfriend was like "hey I wanna be your girlfriend instead", I'd be like "yo, let's go pick out some choice tits for you right now! Uhh, if you want."


----------



## Flatlander

Aya Saves the World said:


> Okay guys I have a question.
> 
> Me and my fiancée where talking today and he's really anxious because of the progress. He's getting closer and closer to starting it and he questioned me if it's okay to start when he's 26. He's stressed, really stressed. Poor thing. There is little I can do for him and that frustrates me.


I'd tell him it's okay but ask what he really wants.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Flatlander said:


> I'd tell him it's okay but ask what he really wants.


We've been through that phase already. It's what he really wants. He can't wait to legally be a man.


----------



## Flatlander

Aya Saves the World said:


> We've been through that phase already. It's what he really wants. He can't wait to legally be a man.


Then ask him what he needs to get through the waiting period. Distraction, perhaps?


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Flatlander said:


> Then ask him what he needs to get through the waiting period. Distraction, perhaps?


I don't know, he's worried and can't focus on anything.


----------



## Flatlander

Aya Saves the World said:


> I don't know, he's worried and can't focus on anything.


What typically gives him comfort?


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Flatlander said:


> What typically gives him comfort?


Well, we usually roleplay and I recently gave him The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth to play, but he's still stressed.


----------



## Flatlander

Aya Saves the World said:


> Well, we usually roleplay and I recently gave him The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth to play, but he's still stressed.


Don't know if there's much to do for him, then, but bear with it. Handle what comes up.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Flatlander said:


> Don't know if there's much to do for him, then, but bear with it. Handle what comes up.


Everyday. If that's what I can do, I'll do it.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Another question:

How did you told your parents about your sex change? And how did they took it?


----------



## stiletto

Anyone watch the recent episode of Sons of Anarchy?

There was a beautiful and touching scene between Venus and Tig. Loved every second. It was so touching I almost cried. It was so real and heartfelt. I'm so happy that Kurt did right by the trans-community by representing Venus as a character that truly loves herself but is also vulnerable and afraid as a result of being socially outcast, and portraying that within a relationship with real relationship problems.

Walton Goggins and Kim Coates were exceptional.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Aya Saves the World said:


> Another question:
> 
> How did you told your parents about your sex change? And how did they took it?


I told my mom while basically shaking. We gradually moved from subject to subject and I just kinda blurted "Mom, I need to tell you something". She was cool about hormones at first until I clarified "No, I want to go ALL the way." She also was not particularly pleased I'd had a 6 month questioning phase followed by 3 months of hormones already before telling her (I felt she'd react badly...and she did). Reactionwise, she still needs time to process, but I don't think an eternity will be enough. She cherry-picks when she wants to treat me like a girl. If she wants help cooking "Welp, now you've gotta learn this and cleaning". 

Antiquated gender roles, really? Oh, and I asked if an old friend of mine could come over and spend the night "Wouldn't that be a weird situation with his girlfriend away?" 

Waiting 2 months until I move out and can finally start dressing as me is freaking torture. 8 months hormones, will be 10 then, voice, been getting laser, mannerisms under the radar, I think it'll be a little weird at first at a new university but I don't even care anymore at this point.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Playful Proxy said:


> I told my mom while basically shaking. We gradually moved from subject to subject and I just kinda blurted "Mom, I need to tell you something". She was cool about hormones at first until I clarified "No, I want to go ALL the way." She also was not particularly pleased I'd had a 6 month questioning phase followed by 3 months of hormones already before telling her (I felt she'd react badly...and she did). Reactionwise, she still needs time to process, but I don't think an eternity will be enough. She cherry-picks when she wants to treat me like a girl. If she wants help cooking "Welp, now you've gotta learn this and cleaning".
> 
> Antiquated gender roles, really? Oh, and I asked if an old friend of mine could come over and spend the night "Wouldn't that be a weird situation with his girlfriend away?"
> 
> Waiting 2 months until I move out and can finally start dressing as me is freaking torture. 8 months hormones, will be 10 then, voice, been getting laser, mannerisms under the radar, I think it'll be a little weird at first at a new university but I don't even care anymore at this point.


That sounds painful... Sorry for reviving the memories. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Flatlander

Playful Proxy said:


> I told my mom while basically shaking. We gradually moved from subject to subject and I just kinda blurted "Mom, I need to tell you something". She was cool about hormones at first until I clarified "No, I want to go ALL the way." She also was not particularly pleased I'd had a 6 month questioning phase followed by 3 months of hormones already before telling her (I felt she'd react badly...and she did). Reactionwise, she still needs time to process, but I don't think an eternity will be enough. She cherry-picks when she wants to treat me like a girl. If she wants help cooking "Welp, now you've gotta learn this and cleaning".
> 
> Antiquated gender roles, really? Oh, and I asked if an old friend of mine could come over and spend the night "Wouldn't that be a weird situation with his girlfriend away?"
> 
> Waiting 2 months until I move out and can finally start dressing as me is freaking torture. 8 months hormones, will be 10 then, voice, been getting laser, mannerisms under the radar, I think it'll be a little weird at first at a new university but I don't even care anymore at this point.


New university = fresh start. It'll be weird but it'll also be good.

As to your mother, I know some of those things must be annoying, and she's definitely going to need her time, but at least she's _thinking_ about it and making some effort. When I came out to my mother, and she was over her shock, she kept trying to shove me back into female roles or teach me female things rather than introducing me to male roles and things (roles are her thing, that I don't really go by them notwithstanding). I came out when I was around 20, and it took her 7-8 years even to acknowledge that I'm not going to "change my mind".


----------



## The Chameleon

Playful Proxy said:


> I told my mom while basically shaking. We gradually moved from subject to subject and I just kinda blurted "Mom, I need to tell you something". She was cool about hormones at first until I clarified "No, I want to go ALL the way." She also was not particularly pleased I'd had a 6 month questioning phase followed by 3 months of hormones already before telling her (I felt she'd react badly...and she did). Reactionwise, she still needs time to process, but I don't think an eternity will be enough. She cherry-picks when she wants to treat me like a girl. If she wants help cooking "Welp, now you've gotta learn this and cleaning".
> 
> Antiquated gender roles, really? Oh, and I asked if an old friend of mine could come over and spend the night "Wouldn't that be a weird situation with his girlfriend away?"
> 
> Waiting 2 months until I move out and can finally start dressing as me is freaking torture. 8 months hormones, will be 10 then, voice, been getting laser, mannerisms under the radar, I think it'll be a little weird at first at a new university but I don't even care anymore at this point.


Maybe she wants to be an ally but just doesn't know how? That sounds really painful though, especially since she's your mother.


----------



## hauntology

it does. My transitioning experience has been strange, to say the least. My mother always has known, and was amazingly accepting. I can't really go to her now, though. My online friends have been the most supporting community I've ever met, and all my friends are queer/MOGAI so that's not a problem. But the world, my (not really a) father, and my own internalized fears of reactions have stalled me from being myself. That and being denied resources at times due to being disabled, and not being seen as a real transperson because of my flamboyant mannerisms, have kept me pretty much without the ability to start transitioning physically.


----------



## The Chameleon

HorrorHound said:


> not being seen as a real transperson because of my flamboyant mannerisms


I FEEL THIS (caps)


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Playful Proxy said:


> I told my mom while basically shaking. We gradually moved from subject to subject and I just kinda blurted "Mom, I need to tell you something". She was cool about hormones at first until I clarified "No, I want to go ALL the way." She also was not particularly pleased I'd had a 6 month questioning phase followed by 3 months of hormones already before telling her (I felt she'd react badly...and she did). Reactionwise, she still needs time to process, but I don't think an eternity will be enough. She cherry-picks when she wants to treat me like a girl. If she wants help cooking "Welp, now you've gotta learn this and cleaning".
> 
> Antiquated gender roles, really? Oh, and I asked if an old friend of mine could come over and spend the night "Wouldn't that be a weird situation with his girlfriend away?"
> 
> Waiting 2 months until I move out and can finally start dressing as me is freaking torture. 8 months hormones, will be 10 then, voice, been getting laser, mannerisms under the radar, I think it'll be a little weird at first at a new university but I don't even care anymore at this point.


I'd try looking at her behavior not as cherry-picking when she wants to treat you as a girl, but as her way of trying to understand you as a girl. It may be icky, but when confronted with something confusing it's common to rely on what's familiar, and gender stereotypes are familiar unfortunately. So perhaps she's just trying to equate you with "woman" in the best way she can currently. Once she's processed some she will be better able to nuance her view.

I think it's rather equivalent to how some people, when they transition, end up playing up gender stereotypes themselves in order to justify/solidify their identity to themselves/others. It's an interesting conundrum because transitioning is supposed to be about being your true self, but it's easy to let gender stereotypes/expectations color your behavior (as it is for cis people). Eventually people come to accept that gender stereotypes don't mean anything.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

I am reminded of an issue I've been thinking about lately. I'm agender, and have been working to make my appearance more androgynous because I like how I look that way and it fits my personality better and I feel like it better represents me to others when they're trying to understand me. Because I am female bodied, however, I have now begun to fear that the slightest femininity in my appearance will completely negate any progress I've made with people seeing me as "not a woman". This happens when I talk to online people- people who have been perfectly adept at using neutral pronouns online suddenly start referring to me as "she" when we have a video chat. And the fact is that during hot weather I enjoy wearing those long hippie style skirts and sun dresses because they are sooo comfy. But I don't want to lose what I've gained with people by putting "oh right, skirts, void is female" back in their heads. but I want to be true to myself, which is "skirts are nice and cool dammit". 

A good friend pointed out something I believe to be true, which is that I don't need the world to see me as agender. I do need the people I want to be close to to do so, and I would like it if the people I have to interact with regularly can at least respect it. Dealing with the inevitable misgendering, whether it be due to people's assumptions when they hear my voice no matter how masculine I'm currently looking or whether I'm wearing a skirt, will be much easier to bear when I know I have that core group of friends/family that know exactly who I am and don't struggle with seeing me as "not a woman".


----------



## The Chameleon

lolthevoidlol said:


> I am reminded of an issue I've been thinking about lately. I'm agender, and have been working to make my appearance more androgynous because I like how I look that way and it fits my personality better and I feel like it better represents me to others when they're trying to understand me. Because I am female bodied, however, I have now begun to fear that the slightest femininity in my appearance will completely negate any progress I've made with people seeing me as "not a woman". This happens when I talk to online people- people who have been perfectly adept at using neutral pronouns online suddenly start referring to me as "she" when we have a video chat. And the fact is that during hot weather I enjoy wearing those long hippie style skirts and sun dresses because they are sooo comfy. But I don't want to lose what I've gained with people by putting "oh right, skirts, void is female" back in their heads. but I want to be true to myself, which is "skirts are nice and cool dammit".
> 
> A good friend pointed out something I believe to be true, which is that I don't need the world to see me as agender. I do need the people I want to be close to to do so, and I would like it if the people I have to interact with regularly can at least respect it. Dealing with the inevitable misgendering, whether it be due to people's assumptions when they hear my voice no matter how masculine I'm currently looking or whether I'm wearing a skirt, will be much easier to bear when I know I have that core group of friends/family that know exactly who I am and don't struggle with seeing me as "not a woman".


So true. 
It's worse when you're a guy and if your hair is long, or if you wear anything remotely feminine, you can't POSSIBLY be a boy anymore.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

lolthevoidlol said:


> I am reminded of an issue I've been thinking about lately. I'm agender, and have been working to make my appearance more androgynous because I like how I look that way and it fits my personality better and I feel like it better represents me to others when they're trying to understand me. Because I am female bodied, however, I have now begun to fear that the slightest femininity in my appearance will completely negate any progress I've made with people seeing me as "not a woman". This happens when I talk to online people- people who have been perfectly adept at using neutral pronouns online suddenly start referring to me as "she" when we have a video chat. And the fact is that during hot weather I enjoy wearing those long hippie style skirts and sun dresses because they are sooo comfy. But I don't want to lose what I've gained with people by putting "oh right, skirts, void is female" back in their heads. but I want to be true to myself, which is "skirts are nice and cool dammit".
> 
> A good friend pointed out something I believe to be true, which is that I don't need the world to see me as agender. I do need the people I want to be close to to do so, and I would like it if the people I have to interact with regularly can at least respect it. Dealing with the inevitable misgendering, whether it be due to people's assumptions when they hear my voice no matter how masculine I'm currently looking or whether I'm wearing a skirt, will be much easier to bear when I know I have that core group of friends/family that know exactly who I am and don't struggle with seeing me as "not a woman".


People will do that even if they don't want to, especially if they speak gendered languages like I do. We just aren't wired for that. Yet.


----------



## Flatlander

Sempiturtle said:


> For a while, I've been on my own with this issue. In real life I try my hardest not to show any of it. Because I feel like I'm doing wrong being myself. I don;t know how to answer this, but this mainly is because of something that happened.
> My mother got a new lover. He happened to be transgender and had transition done and all of that. But when he told my mother thing, she flipped. She got mad at him and told him this was wrong and all of that. Recently I asked her about that too, she doesn't change her opinion. She makes me feel like I'm in the wrong with this too. I can't get over the fact how shit she treated that person for being himself.
> 
> For years I've not been feeling like myself. Even before I knew about the transgender concept or anything that relates to that. I never felt like myself, or was comfortable with the body I was born with. I never understood what it was. Until that person came around. I never got to talk to him about this. Sad. I wish I had. But since then I've been looking things up trying desperately to understand myself up to this day. Just recently I gave it a try. I told mom and explained what happened earlier. I went along with it and all. And up to this day I feel really uncomfortable. I can't be myself. I hate it. Fuck society. I really wish I could be myself without people hating or me hating myself because of the people around me.


Society can go fuck itself. You are who and what you are, and you don't need to pay heed to people who try to drag you down with them, they belong under the heel of your boot. I'd tell you not to deny yourself for the sake of others' comfort, it's their issue whether they struggle with you or not, but you gotta contend with that in your own way.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Flatlander said:


> Then you're _really_ gonna like university.


Well except for the whole me trying to present female and failing miserably because estrogen is slow as anything and seemingly ineffective on me (well, it has done some but not as much as I"d like and facial bone structure is fucking horrid). It can soften my skin all day long, the bone looks bad. Wheeee, I am so screwed >.< Oh, and my voice is not where I want it but it at least isn't some super deep male voice...but I doubt it'd get fem'd on the phone yet, either. 

Also, my friends made the mistake of getting me drunk last night. That essentially turned into me crying, whining about things not moving fast enough, being obnoxiously clingy and hugging him, and trying to do integration on the inside of a pizza box with a Sharpie.


----------



## Flatlander

Playful Proxy said:


> Well except for the whole me trying to present female and failing miserably because estrogen is slow as anything and seemingly ineffective on me (well, it has done some but not as much as I"d like and facial bone structure is fucking horrid). It can soften my skin all day long, the bone looks bad. Wheeee, I am so screwed >.< Oh, and my voice is not where I want it but it at least isn't some super deep male voice...but I doubt it'd get fem'd on the phone yet, either.


University is at least a relatively liberal place, where you can give yourself some room to transition. Try to get dorm room/s alone.


----------



## Sempiturtle

Flatlander said:


> Society can go fuck itself. You are who and what you are, and you don't need to pay heed to people who try to drag you down with them, they belong under the heel of your boot. I'd tell you not to deny yourself for the sake of others' comfort, it's their issue whether they struggle with you or not, but you gotta contend with that in your own way.


Yeah and slowly, I'm in the process of that. Fuck what people think and their opinions. Just when I once again look at when I was and attended highschool. I used to get comments like '' You should see a hairdresser. '' , '' You should wear something else. '' , '' this color suits you better. '' . People are telling us how to life our lives. and I hate this.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Amphoteric said:


> Touche, and I apologize for my awkward phrasing--I didn't mean to say "presenting" in the sense that anyone non-binary assumes a gendered/binary appearance, but rather, being perceived as. The incongruence of being non-binary in a very binary world has to be incredibly distressing, but is there some way you can be yourself in the public eye, or do you have to endure consistent misgendering, or in your case, being assumed with a gender? I know in some cultures, gender-variant people exist and are recognized, such as Hijra, but to assume any progression will be made in the West in regards to other genders which fall outside of the binary receiving proper rights is kind of a far stretch right now, which really sucks.
> 
> Mmm, I have one other thought. Although I am male, I tend to dislike masculine culture and I like dressing in a rather androgynous fashion (others most likely perceive it to be "metrosexual"); I would feel comfortable being more androgynous, if it didn't come with more stress. I'm already worried enough as is about being perceived as male and navigating life as such, if I were to identify as androgynous, I think my anxieties would go through the roof. I guess my one question is, seeing as it's possible to be FtM androgyne, I could claim myself as such but I'm guessing gender (or lack thereof) for non-binary people is just as innate as it is for binary transsexuals, which means it would be invalidating on my part, and I guess I don't see the unnecessary label for a male who's "non-traditional" to call himself androgyne or genderqueer.
> 
> Eugh, this has kind of led into a whole other thing all-together. What are the differences between, say, a male who dresses in a rather androgynous attire and doesn't conform to traditional gender roles--and someone who identifies as genderqueer or otherwise?


Yes, being in culture that does not recognize any form of non-binary gender means being constantly (mis)gendered. And unfortunately there's nothing one can really do about except try to raise awareness by simply existing. And taking the opportunity to educate people when it feels safe and you're up for it. Like, I'm not out there soapboxing to the barista who just called me m'am, but I do try to advocate as much as I can. I know that any substantial change will come after my time though.

I'd say that the difference is their identity. And I'm not being flippant. But in the end that's what it comes down to from any outside perspective. Without being able to crawl inside someone and feel what they feel about themselves, you can only really take their word at their experience and sense of self. So for the non-conforming guy who still feels like a guy, that's just what he is. And for the gender queer person who identifies as such, that's what they are.

I understand that this can be frustrating to people (it is to me as a naturally curious and scientific person whenever I'm confronted with something that I just kind of have to accept without ever being able to explore it myself), but it's the nature of the beast. Some people have used the analogy that it's like porn- you know it when you see/feel it. I personally prefer the analogy that gender identity is like tripping on LSD/mushrooms- it's not an experience you can actually explain to anyone else in a way that they'll understand on the same fundamental level you do, and even if they go on to trip too it's still a unique experience. Before I tripped the one time I spent a lot of time researching what it was like, but once I did it I realized that there is no language that can adequately explain the experience. I think it's the same for anyone's sense of self. You can get close, but no one can truly experience exactly what you did/do.


----------



## Flatlander

Sempiturtle said:


> Yeah and slowly, I'm in the process of that. Fuck what people think and their opinions. Just when I once again look at when I was and attended highschool. I used to get comments like '' You should see a hairdresser. '' , '' You should wear something else. '' , '' this color suits you better. '' . People are telling us how to life our lives. and I hate this.


The things people talk about in this regard are so inconsequential to anything real, anyway. It'll impact how they or others view you, but their thoughts have no bearing on the reality of who or what you are, as you operate from your own fundamental place. If you had been of a mind, you could've gone out to get that new hairstyle, suit, color or anything else, but it wouldn't do anything to the truth behind it, because it would have come from how you thought in the first place. You would've been the kind of person that caves to others' attempts to change you. Or you would be caving to the attempt/s of someone specific because they had influence on you in their own way, and so you'd be someone who was susceptible to that specific kind of influence.

I think the closest I ever came to that was with a significant other. A significant exception from how I usually work, so an instance of the latter rather than the former. Sort of painful for someone who doesn't usually even have any mind for what others think of them.

People tend to do these things out of their own insecurity or power need or such, anyway. Some need for you to fit into _their_ norm. It's not just ridiculous, it's also presumptuous, and it's also a remnant that's pretty much useless in the modern age when men shouldn't have to rely on stagnant social models to survive.


----------



## starshipuk

First of all, I want to say how grateful I am that this thread is here. I am not a frequent poster on PerC but I lurk a lot, and this thread taught me what being transgender is, and also helped me come to realise what has been bothering me all these years. I am somewhere on the spectrum, and this is the first time I've really talked about it.

I really don't know what my gender is. Sometimes I think I am FtM, other times non-binary or maybe even something else. I spent the entirety of my teenage years trying to force myself to be comfortable with being female. For some brief moments I even thought it worked. But the feelings of wrongness when trying to live as a "girl" never went away. What I do know is that I strive for masculinity. I only wear men's clothing and have a "boyish" haircut and when it comes to my own insecurities and the roles I want to perform, all of the people I want to be/look more like are men. And I do find myself identifying with the accounts of a lot of FTMs, but I don't know, I might be in denial... 

In terms of what people perceive me as, I apparently appear quite androgynous. Some call me "she," others "he," and others refuse to use pronouns on me at all. All of these have felt uncomfortable at various times and for various reasons, but I have an innate objection to being called "woman." Whereas not too long ago, a woman said, referring to me, that "It's nice to see such a well-dressed man" and I was over the moon. According to this I ought to be sure I identify as male but something in me can't accept it. Perhaps I am more sure of my gender than I think but I am just afraid of being trans? I am very confused, but all I know is that I'm tired of being unsure of my own identity and the exhaustion of being seen as a girl every day when I can't even explain what is wrong with that. I also don't want to come out as trans and then come to realise later on that I'm not. I just wish gender wasn't such a big deal.


----------



## Entropic

lolthevoidlol said:


> I am reminded of an issue I've been thinking about lately. I'm agender, and have been working to make my appearance more androgynous because I like how I look that way and it fits my personality better and I feel like it better represents me to others when they're trying to understand me. Because I am female bodied, however, I have now begun to fear that the slightest femininity in my appearance will completely negate any progress I've made with people seeing me as "not a woman". This happens when I talk to online people- people who have been perfectly adept at using neutral pronouns online suddenly start referring to me as "she" when we have a video chat. And the fact is that during hot weather I enjoy wearing those long hippie style skirts and sun dresses because they are sooo comfy. But I don't want to lose what I've gained with people by putting "oh right, skirts, void is female" back in their heads. but I want to be true to myself, which is "skirts are nice and cool dammit".
> 
> A good friend pointed out something I believe to be true, which is that I don't need the world to see me as agender. I do need the people I want to be close to to do so, and I would like it if the people I have to interact with regularly can at least respect it. Dealing with the inevitable misgendering, whether it be due to people's assumptions when they hear my voice no matter how masculine I'm currently looking or whether I'm wearing a skirt, will be much easier to bear when I know I have that core group of friends/family that know exactly who I am and don't struggle with seeing me as "not a woman".


Misgendering happens even to cispeople though, but since cispeople are comfortable in a way transpeople are not, they often shrug it off or laugh at it like, haha, that woman thought I was a girl, how did she think that? I was misgendered quite recently last week by an elderly woman with hearing problems (we only spoke over the phone), and it's the first time I've been misgendered in many months after my voice dropped to a male range. I assume it happened because of her hearing problems because I cannot otherwise see how she could mistake my voice like that, seeing it's in a male range (albeit more teenage-y) and I speak with a typical male pattern. I would probably have been way more upset half a year ago when I was still not consistently read as male and interpret it negatively and see it as a sign that I don't pass. 

So what you can do is to work on your body language and speech pattern. There's a reason someone like Conchita Wurst can be seen as female despite having a visibly worn beard, and it's because her body language and speech pattern including other more typically feminine presentation such as long hair and female clothing helps to place her as "female" in people's heads even though she's male-born (ugh, that title though): 






I'm also reminded of that transguy on Youtube who didn't start their HRT yet and has a very difficult-to-read fashion style (goth), and while it seems to lie on an androgynous/female range, if this person told me I want to be referred to as male I wouldn't have any problems with doing that even though the voice suggests otherwise:








Sempiturtle said:


> I'm a transgender. FTM, I haven't come out about it in real life. Sometimes I feel when I put male on sites, I feel like I'm lying to people. But on the other hand I don't like tabeling myself as female either.


Yeah, that resonates a lot with how I felt about it as well. I was painfully aware of what I was *supposed to do*, which stood in contrast to how *I really felt*. Just a very strong sense of dissonance and uncomfort labeling myself as female, especially online sites or surveys where I had to make such an obvious and distinct choice, to openly declare who I was. I remember feeling discomfort even disclosing this information to others I got to know and sometimes I felt I was obliged to. I sometimes used the information as a form of manipulation in order to create distance to others but whenever I did disclose this information there was a feeling of it not ringing true, feeling somewhat fake, forced and contrived. I say it because it's what I'm supposed to think and say but deep down I knew it wasn't right. It's not who I felt I was. 

After I came out as trans there was still this period where I felt that what I was supposed to do felt off-limit, that calling myself male, labeling and gendering myself male was "wrong", it's not within my power or my right to do this because it's not what I'm *supposed to think*. It felt like an odd dangerous other. It's strange how much power socialization has over the human mind when the distinction is so arbitrary. 

I've been living as male for over a year now and now it actually feels quite nonsensical for most of the part. What, what else would I be? It's odd to go from one mode of perception to another in this way. I still wonder sometimes and react when I need to openly declare my gender identity in this way, but it's not the same kind of feeling of discomfort as it used to be. It feels far more natural. 

In addition to this, I used to run with the option "other" whenever it was available for many years, mostly because I disliked the feeling of being shoehorned into the female box but feeling the male box was "wrong" or "off-limits" too except for a few times when I created some troll accounts or whatever, and now the idea of labeling myself as "other" again is felt as inconceivable. It was a cop-out, clearly, a cop-out of not being able to deal with the fact that I felt one thing but couldn't mediate this with the felt expectations I knew was placed upon me so I stuck with the middle-road whenever I found one, instead of making the obvious choice I probably wanted to since I don't know from what age, really. It's weird, how things turn out like that, how we construct ourselves. 

The most obvious proof I have that I am transgender is because of how much psychological discomfort and pain this caused me for many, many years. Seriously though, how many cispeople even bother thinking about this? 



Amphoteric said:


> I'm curious.
> 
> As someone who is a binary transmale, what does it mean to be androgynous or non-binary, or FtM androgyne? I find variations fascinating, but I'm narrow minded when it comes to gender variant people. I've met a few, but a lot of them present as one binary gender or the other, which sounds pretty invalidating to their own identity but how do androgynous people present themselves as such without being placed into either of two little binary boxes? And how do you feel gender neutral, or come to that realization?





Amphoteric said:


> Mmm, I have one other thought. Although I am male, I tend to dislike masculine culture and I like dressing in a rather androgynous fashion (others most likely perceive it to be "metrosexual"); I would feel comfortable being more androgynous, if it didn't come with more stress. I'm already worried enough as is about being perceived as male and navigating life as such, if I were to identify as androgynous, I think my anxieties would go through the roof. I guess my one question is, seeing as it's possible to be FtM androgyne, I could claim myself as such but I'm guessing gender (or lack thereof) for non-binary people is just as innate as it is for binary transsexuals, which means it would be invalidating on my part, and I guess I don't see the unnecessary label for a male who's "non-traditional" to call himself androgyne or genderqueer.
> 
> Eugh, this has kind of led into a whole other thing all-together. What are the differences between, say, a male who dresses in a rather androgynous attire and doesn't conform to traditional gender roles--and someone who identifies as genderqueer or otherwise?


Not entirely sure how you make the distinction here. I mean, I'm the same as you as in, in may ways I'm very masculine center, especially in terms of personality, values and how I overall behave, but I prefer a somewhat androgyne appearance too. I love East Asian male fashion and my haircut is anything but hypermasculine. I wouldn't call myself metrosexual though as I still think metrosexuality is in many ways very distinctly hypermasculine. I don't see myself as androgyne nor do I strive to be, but I can see how my sense of fashion could be interpreted that way. 

Essentially it boils down to what it means to be androgyne. For some people androgyny is just a fashion expression, for some it's related to identity. I have no problem passing though and like you I strongly dislike hypermasculinity especially as a fashion statement. It is not attractive or sexy. At all. 

Also, "masculine culture" is a very loose word. If you mean macho culture then yeah, that's just obnoxious to me. I get the guy talk and I am lying if I said I do not fall back to or cannot or do not utilize this at all in my communication with others, especially other men regardless of where they themselves identify on the masculinity spectrum and I guess one could say I do try to exude a bit of a "tough guy" persona, but yeah, super-macho environments are just incredible turn-offs. 



lolthevoidlol said:


> This is my buddy Draco. He is a FtM androgyne who is, as a professional bellydancer/hairdresser/makeup artist, very much on the flamboyant side. He is still very much masculine of center however. He transitioned with surgery and hormones, and after years on the hormones with minimal results was diagnosed with androgen insensitivity syndrome. This means that the hormones will never masculinize him as much as he had hoped for. So he is currently working to accept both his physical realities and his personality and what they mean for his identity and being perceived by the world.
> 
> Here's a video he made about his transition as a belly dancer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmZwo8eayts#
> 
> A blog on his dance site about it (scroll down to "Dancing as an androgyne"): â€¢ Ponderings â€¢ â€” â€¢ D r a c o n i s â€¢
> 
> And a blog entry about his AIS diagnosis: For my will is as strong as yours, â€” From FtM to Androgyne: Stopping hormones and having AIS


Yeah, it's interesting you bring up this and this isn't just something that happens to female-born but can happen to male-born as well. I can understand that especially as female-born and seeking to be male, it can lead to an extra difficulty with how to come to terms with and internalize this experience, though, since there are certain expectations transpeople have when it comes to their transition that male-born wouldn't have in the same way, necessarily.


----------



## Sempiturtle

Entropic said:


> Misgendering happens even to cispeople though, but since cispeople are comfortable in a way transpeople are not, they often shrug it off or laugh at it like, haha, that woman thought I was a girl, how did she think that? I was misgendered quite recently last week by an elderly woman with hearing problems (we only spoke over the phone), and it's the first time I've been misgendered in many months after my voice dropped to a male range. I assume it happened because of her hearing problems because I cannot otherwise see how she could mistake my voice like that, seeing it's in a male range (albeit more teenage-y) and I speak with a typical male pattern. I would probably have been way more upset half a year ago when I was still not consistently read as male and interpret it negatively and see it as a sign that I don't pass.
> 
> So what you can do is to work on your body language and speech pattern. There's a reason someone like Conchita Wurst can be seen as female despite having a visibly worn beard, and it's because her body language and speech pattern including other more typically feminine presentation such as long hair and female clothing helps to place her as "female" in people's heads even though she's male-born (ugh, that title though):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm also reminded of that transguy on Youtube who didn't start their HRT yet and has a very difficult-to-read fashion style (goth), and while it seems to lie on an androgynous/female range, if this person told me I want to be referred to as male I wouldn't have any problems with doing that even though the voice suggests otherwise:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that resonates a lot with how I felt about it as well. I was painfully aware of what I was *supposed to do*, which stood in contrast to how *I really felt*. Just a very strong sense of dissonance and uncomfort labeling myself as female, especially online sites or surveys where I had to make such an obvious and distinct choice, to openly declare who I was. I remember feeling discomfort even disclosing this information to others I got to know and sometimes I felt I was obliged to. I sometimes used the information as a form of manipulation in order to create distance to others but whenever I did disclose this information there was a feeling of it not ringing true, feeling somewhat fake, forced and contrived. I say it because it's what I'm supposed to think and say but deep down I knew it wasn't right. It's not who I felt I was.
> 
> After I came out as trans there was still this period where I felt that what I was supposed to do felt off-limit, that calling myself male, labeling and gendering myself male was "wrong", it's not within my power or my right to do this because it's not what I'm *supposed to think*. It felt like an odd dangerous other. It's strange how much power socialization has over the human mind when the distinction is so arbitrary.
> 
> I've been living as male for over a year now and now it actually feels quite nonsensical for most of the part. What, what else would I be? It's odd to go from one mode of perception to another in this way. I still wonder sometimes and react when I need to openly declare my gender identity in this way, but it's not the same kind of feeling of discomfort as it used to be. It feels far more natural.
> 
> In addition to this, I used to run with the option "other" whenever it was available for many years, mostly because I disliked the feeling of being shoehorned into the female box but feeling the male box was "wrong" or "off-limits" too except for a few times when I created some troll accounts or whatever, and now the idea of labeling myself as "other" again is felt as inconceivable. It was a cop-out, clearly, a cop-out of not being able to deal with the fact that I felt one thing but couldn't mediate this with the felt expectations I knew was placed upon me so I stuck with the middle-road whenever I found one, instead of making the obvious choice I probably wanted to since I don't know from what age, really. It's weird, how things turn out like that, how we construct ourselves.
> 
> The most obvious proof I have that I am transgender is because of how much psychological discomfort and pain this caused me for many, many years. Seriously though, how many cispeople even bother thinking about this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not entirely sure how you make the distinction here. I mean, I'm the same as you as in, in may ways I'm very masculine center, especially in terms of personality, values and how I overall behave, but I prefer a somewhat androgyne appearance too. I love East Asian male fashion and my haircut is anything but hypermasculine. I wouldn't call myself metrosexual though as I still think metrosexuality is in many ways very distinctly hypermasculine. I don't see myself as androgyne nor do I strive to be, but I can see how my sense of fashion could be interpreted that way.
> 
> Essentially it boils down to what it means to be androgyne. For some people androgyny is just a fashion expression, for some it's related to identity. I have no problem passing though and like you I strongly dislike hypermasculinity especially as a fashion statement. It is not attractive or sexy. At all.
> 
> Also, "masculine culture" is a very loose word. If you mean macho culture then yeah, that's just obnoxious to me. I get the guy talk and I am lying if I said I do not fall back to or cannot or do not utilize this at all in my communication with others, especially other men regardless of where they themselves identify on the masculinity spectrum and I guess one could say I do try to exude a bit of a "tough guy" persona, but yeah, super-macho environments are just incredible turn-offs.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, it's interesting you bring up this and this isn't just something that happens to female-born but can happen to male-born as well. I can understand that especially as female-born and seeking to be male, it can lead to an extra difficulty with how to come to terms with and internalize this experience, though, since there are certain expectations transpeople have when it comes to their transition that male-born wouldn't have in the same way, necessarily.



Yep, that is exactly what I feel, with online sites too. It's exactly how I feel right now. I have no other words for this. You have no idea how much I love the person for putting this thread up. lmao.


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## lolthevoidlol

Transgender Pioneer Leslie Feinberg of Stone Butch Blues Has Died | Advocate.com


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## Drewbie

lolthevoidlol said:


> Transgender Pioneer Leslie Feinberg of Stone Butch Blues Has Died | Advocate.com


Oh this makes me so sad. :sad:


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## lolthevoidlol

“Trans* on the Side”: Misconceptions of the So-Called “Trans* Phenomenon” | Unrealisdick


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## Playful Proxy

Infuriating things: Hormone replacement with testosterone in female ranges for 8 months causes muscular atrophy. Still presenting male at work and being expected to lift like a male...ends painfully. :dry: I can't come out at this place and lifting isn't even in the job description. "You lift like a girl"...how badly I want to just scream "BECAUSE I AM ONE". </RANT>


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## Aya the Abysswalker

Playful Proxy said:


> Infuriating things: Hormone replacement with testosterone in female ranges for 8 months causes muscular atrophy. Still presenting male at work and being expected to lift like a male...ends painfully. :dry: I can't come out at this place and lifting isn't even in the job description. "You lift like a girl"...how badly I want to just scream "BECAUSE I AM ONE". </RANT>


People expect the dumbest things out of ALL MEN IN THE WORLD.


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## Playful Proxy

Aya Saves the World said:


> People expect the dumbest things out of ALL MEN IN THE WORLD.


Was helping a guy move tables into position for a lunch tomorrow at work. He just one-hands the tables and continues to laugh at me while I struggle with two hands.  
*Feminist side:* No! You don't need the help of no stinkin testosterone to lift this, he's just using a handicap! How bad could months with 1/7 of your original amount and no athletic exercise in the last 3 years possibly be?
*Arms:* Ow, ow ow *randomly bursts into flames and awkwardly hobbles over to desired location and put for extreme effort not to drop the table on the ground and gently put it down instead*


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## Flatlander

Playful Proxy said:


> Infuriating things: Hormone replacement with testosterone in female ranges for 8 months causes muscular atrophy. Still presenting male at work and being expected to lift like a male...ends painfully. :dry: I can't come out at this place and lifting isn't even in the job description. "You lift like a girl"...how badly I want to just scream "BECAUSE I AM ONE". </RANT>


Can you get out of that job at some point? Doesn't sound like the best place for you to be.

Why are you doing lifting at a place where lifting isn't even in the job description, anyway?


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## OffTheBooks

Just wanted to remind everyone that it was Transgender Day of Remembrance, yesterday(earlier this evening).
To all you fierce, babely, badass, trans and genderqueer folk, shocking the gender binary, thanks for being your wonderful selves!


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## Playful Proxy

Flatlander said:


> Can you get out of that job at some point? Doesn't sound like the best place for you to be.
> 
> Why are you doing lifting at a place where lifting isn't even in the job description, anyway?


I'm an assistant sysadmin so sometimes some of the guys 'borrow' me from my boss to help them with various stuff. And I wish I could get out, but I need the money to pay for college and I don't see any better alternative at the moment.

Even worse: planning on going fulltime at college soon so I'm literally going to be boymode ONLY at that work.Not too terribly bad with a slightly sub-a cup but if they get bigger, explaining why I've got a sports bra under my stuff (NO BINDERS) will be awkward as anything.


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## Flatlander

Playful Proxy said:


> I'm an assistant sysadmin so sometimes some of the guys 'borrow' me from my boss to help them with various stuff. And I wish I could get out, but I need the money to pay for college and I don't see any better alternative at the moment.
> 
> Even worse: planning on going fulltime at college soon so I'm literally going to be boymode ONLY at that work.Not too terribly bad with a slightly sub-a cup but if they get bigger, explaining why I've got a sports bra under my stuff (NO BINDERS) will be awkward as anything.


Just don't let the straps show. That's how I do it, though I'm also not presenting anomalously to my gender.

Working toward some alternative would probably be good for you. Might find more opportunities at or through college. But yeah I know what you're saying with the money, jobs these days are pretty valuable.


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## Playful Proxy

Flatlander said:


> Just don't let the straps show. That's how I do it, though I'm also not presenting anomalously to my gender.
> 
> Working toward some alternative would probably be good for you. Might find more opportunities at or through college. But yeah I know what you're saying with the money, jobs these days are pretty valuable.


Working on it. tbh, I dunno how I even plan to try to go fulltime at college...8 months HRT or not, I don't see how my face and body shape have changed enough for me to look well enough to even try. Do NOT want to look rediculous.


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## Jennywocky

Playful Proxy said:


> I'm an assistant sysadmin so sometimes some of the guys 'borrow' me from my boss to help them with various stuff. And I wish I could get out, but I need the money to pay for college and I don't see any better alternative at the moment.
> 
> Even worse: planning on going fulltime at college soon so I'm literally going to be boymode ONLY at that work.Not too terribly bad with a slightly sub-a cup but if they get bigger, explaining why I've got a sports bra under my stuff (NO BINDERS) will be awkward as anything.


Not sure where you live. It's not really bad aside from summer, since in the winter you can wear layers of clothes -- something tight underneath, and then a loose layer(s) of some kind over top that doesn't define your form. But of course the amount of growth you have will determine how feasible it is.

My biggest issue was white t-shirts a few months after I went on spiro, way in the beginning. I saw my profile in the mirror, and it was like, "Welp, i guess those days are over." It wasn't necessarily the entire breast, just the perky part.  Dark heavy t-shirts were still doable at the time, but then I was having to compress a little under the shirts.



Playful Proxy said:


> Infuriating things: Hormone replacement with testosterone in female ranges for 8 months causes muscular atrophy. Still presenting male at work and being expected to lift like a male...ends painfully. :dry: I can't come out at this place and lifting isn't even in the job description. "You lift like a girl"...how badly I want to just scream "BECAUSE I AM ONE". </RANT>


I have a pretty solid frame and have some heft/height, but even then, I think my strength got cut in half. I noticed this especially when moving, there's stuff I used to be able to lift fairly easily but struggle a lot with now. For really heavy doors (those metal ones with the thick glass in public buildings), I have to push with my legs. in fact, I use my legs a LOT more to "push" things, whereas before I could use my arms.

The last time I moved, I felt weird (because I had always been more capable), but i just got 4-5 guy friends to show up and they carried all the big/heavy stuff for me. It seemed effortless for them, so I was really glad for their help. But it was just weird because of the ways roles normally work; when you move, it usually ends up men do the heavy lifting and women move smaller stuff and tell you where things go / assist in other ways [and some of that is based on body strength], so if you're used to one role it can feel odd winging it in another.

Then again, it was sorta fun reclining on the sofa in my front yard and mock-teasing them to carry it inside with me on top as Cleopatra.


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## Entropic

On the other hand, it's also interesting how much mass you gain from being on T. I've been pretty lazy on the workout thing and building mass and strength mostly focusing on cardio and losing weight, but my entire body shape changed quite a fair bit with a lot of increased mass on my upper body. I just wish I had the time to really hit the gym properly and regularly enough so I'd get more consistent results. I think I gained at least 10+ pounds in pure muscle mass from doing very little. 

I am not sure if I think I feel that much stronger though, but then again, I've always had a lanky body build. The clearest result that I see is my cardio strength and how I went from barely being able to do the basic first level for 1 hour (pretty much almost no resistance) to increasing that about 3-4 times (probably more, depending on how you count) in about half a year, and I've been lazy. I could probably have pushed it harder than I did.


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## Playful Proxy

Jennywocky said:


> Not sure where you live. It's not really bad aside from summer, since in the winter you can wear layers of clothes -- something tight underneath, and then a loose layer(s) of some kind over top that doesn't define your form. But of course the amount of growth you have will determine how feasible it is.
> 
> My biggest issue was white t-shirts a few months after I went on spiro, way in the beginning. I saw my profile in the mirror, and it was like, "Welp, i guess those days are over." It wasn't necessarily the entire breast, just the perky part.  Dark heavy t-shirts were still doable at the time, but then I was having to compress a little under the shirts.


Yeah, I'm having to start doing tighter shirts under my already baggyish button-up collared work shirts. As you said, the 'pointy' part is the main part that just needs a little taming (though body, if you want to add more form, this is not me telling you NOT to, feel entirely free, I can manage fine). 



Jennywocky said:


> But it was just weird because of the ways roles normally work; when you move, it usually ends up men do the heavy lifting and women move smaller stuff and tell you where things go / assist in other ways [and some of that is based on body strength], so if you're used to one role it can feel odd winging it in another.
> 
> Then again, it was sorta fun reclining on the sofa in my front yard and mock-teasing them to carry it inside with me on top as Cleopatra.


I'm 5'11 and 142lbs (was 152 preHRT, dropped to 139, and have been trying to gain weight back in fat for more 'form'). I'm just used to being the 'carrier' role that when I tried and failed it was a bit disheartening. I dunno, I've liked all the changes, but feeling more reliant on others due to lack of strength is going to take some getting used to.  You are who you are, but different social roles have their pro's and con's.


----------



## Flatlander

Entropic said:


> On the other hand, it's also interesting how much mass you gain from being on T. I've been pretty lazy on the workout thing and building mass and strength mostly focusing on cardio and losing weight, but my entire body shape changed quite a fair bit with a lot of increased mass on my upper body. I just wish I had the time to really hit the gym properly and regularly enough so I'd get more consistent results. I think I gained at least 10+ pounds in pure muscle mass from doing very little.
> 
> I am not sure if I think I feel that much stronger though, but then again, I've always had a lanky body build. The clearest result that I see is my cardio strength and how I went from barely being able to do the basic first level for 1 hour (pretty much almost no resistance) to increasing that about 3-4 times (probably more, depending on how you count) in about half a year, and I've been lazy. I could probably have pushed it harder than I did.


I'm gonna be pretty happy when I can go back to the gym. Right now though, even doing next to nothing, yeah, things do change quite a bit. I remember when hiking used to get me out of breath while nowadays, I just run up the mountain np.


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## Entropic

Flatlander said:


> I'm gonna be pretty happy when I can go back to the gym. Right now though, even doing next to nothing, yeah, things do change quite a bit. I remember when hiking used to get me out of breath while nowadays, I just run up the mountain np.


I remember when running a shorter distance to catch the tram got me out of breath, lol. Then again, I used to lead an extremely sedentary life before I got on T.


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## Flatlander

Entropic said:


> I remember when running a shorter distance to catch the tram got me out of breath, lol. Then again, I used to lead an extremely sedentary life before I got on T.


I know the feeling. Fits with things in life working in cycles that reinforce themselves.


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## Metaplanar

Fascinating to hear how much of a difference hormones can make there. But, even without T, it's absolutely possible to be strong enough to carry stuff, even heavy things. Probably depends on your genetics a bit as well?
I've always been annoyed when guys want to do the heavy lifting for me and leave me to stand around uselessly or only take the small things. And then I kind of tend to make it a point to carry some of the heavier things, and they are often weirdly surprised. I guess being relatively short adds to that.
I mean, I'm sure it helps that I did gymnastics for a long time, but right now, I'm really not getting as much exercise as I maybe would like to, and I still feel absolutely capable regarding such everyday things.


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## Playful Proxy

Metaplanar said:


> Fascinating to hear how much of a difference hormones can make there. But, even without T, it's absolutely possible to be strong enough to carry stuff, even heavy things. Probably depends on your genetics a bit as well?
> I've always been annoyed when guys want to do the heavy lifting for me and leave me to stand around uselessly or only take the small things. And then I kind of tend to make it a point to carry some of the heavier things, and they are often weirdly surprised. I guess being relatively short adds to that.
> I mean, I'm sure it helps that I did gymnastics for a long time, but right now, I'm really not getting as much exercise as I maybe would like to, and I still feel absolutely capable regarding such everyday things.


I haven't run into anything I couldn't pick up in terms of just overall weight I couldn't before, it's just a lot harder. I carried a 50lb leadbased power supply around the office to the back room without too much trouble so it's not like you turn into incapableness 3.0, but I think there's a difference in endurance and the higher weights (especially since I'm not even trying to exercise).


----------



## Eos_Machai




----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Eos_Machai said:


>


Honestly, I don't like it. They're putting it in the same because it sells with the tumblr crowd, just like homosexual relationships, it has nothing to with transexuality being part of humanity or trying to put that in games.
Poison from Street Fighter is a better and older example.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Aya Saves the World said:


> Honestly, I don't like it. They're putting it in the same because it sells with the tumblr crowd, just like homosexual relationships, it has nothing to with transexuality being part of humanity or trying to put that in games.
> Poison from Street Fighter is a better and older example.


Tbh, I think for the time being, any publicity, even if it 'sells' that doesn't show all trans people as porn stars, prostitutes, or equating them with drag kings/queens and just shows them as normal people is a step in the right direction. The more public stuff teaches about it in some form or fashion, the less we'll end up having to. Because you know, some of us just want to live our lives, not try to explain it to people all the time.


----------



## Tetsuo Shima

I fail at being transsexual. I want to be a feminine-looking guy, and I'm already in an extremely curvy female body, so I just talk like a tough guy and come off as a rude bitch. I know several girls who look like guys without even hardly trying, and I'm extremely envious of them.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Playful Proxy said:


> Tbh, I think for the time being, any publicity, even if it 'sells' that doesn't show all trans people as porn stars, prostitutes, or equating them with drag kings/queens and just shows them as normal people is a step in the right direction. The more public stuff teaches about it in some form or fashion, the less we'll end up having to. Because you know, some of us just want to live our lives, not try to explain it to people all the time.


I don't know really. Bioware isn't a very good example of how treat homosexuality either. I know it's a step forward, but I don't trust them to do it.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

@Playful Proxy
https://archive.today/vekqn#selection-2829.0-2835.319


----------



## Entropic

Aya Saves the World said:


> Honestly, I don't like it. They're putting it in the same because it sells with the tumblr crowd, just like homosexual relationships, it has nothing to with transexuality being part of humanity or trying to put that in games.
> Poison from Street Fighter is a better and older example.





Playful Proxy said:


> Tbh, I think for the time being, any publicity, even if it 'sells' that doesn't show all trans people as porn stars, prostitutes, or equating them with drag kings/queens and just shows them as normal people is a step in the right direction. The more public stuff teaches about it in some form or fashion, the less we'll end up having to. Because you know, some of us just want to live our lives, not try to explain it to people all the time.


I don't see the problem. I feel it was handled adequately. I actually liked how they reinforced the idea that he's actually a man, female-born or not. It's very important and to me personally, also feels very validating. I also liked that they used a transguy whose voice may just somewhat give him away (well, I assume Dragon Age doesn't have HRT) instead of the over-used MtF trope you always see in fiction. You can also see that his head is more shaped like that of a female's and that some facial features are more on the feminine end so yeah, not bad. 

I'm not even a fan of the Dragon Age franchise but this actually made me curious.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Entropic said:


> I don't see the problem. I feel it was handled adequately. I actually liked how they reinforced the idea that he's actually a man, female-born or not. It's very important and to me personally, also feels very validating. I also liked that they used a transguy whose voice may just somewhat give him away (well, I assume Dragon Age doesn't have HRT) instead of the over-used MtF trope you always see in fiction. You can also see that his head is more shaped like that of a female's and that some facial features are more on the feminine end so yeah, not bad.
> 
> I'm not even a fan of the Dragon Age franchise but this actually made me curious.


I might be influenced by the fact that it is a bad game that goes against the lore of previous games.


----------



## Shahada

Aya Saves the World said:


> I might be influenced by the fact that it is a bad game that goes against the lore of previous games.


Yeah I'm pretty meh on it just because Bioware are almost as bad at game writing as they are at game design.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Shahada said:


> Yeah I'm pretty meh on it just because Bioware are almost as bad at game writing as they are at game design.


Yeah. I think they put the trans issue, like theme homosexual relationships to sell it to a certain group of people, not because it would open the eyes of gamers. Most gamers rather it not be said out loud and be a part of the lore or something left to theorize, like Calista's homosexual uncle was in Dishonored.


----------



## Shahada

Aya Saves the World said:


> Yeah. I think they put the trans issue, like theme homosexual relationships to sell it to a certain group of people, not because it would open the eyes of gamers. Most gamers rather it not be said out loud and be a part of the lore or something left to theorize, like Calista's homosexual uncle was in Dishonored.


I don't necessarily think this is always the case, and I haven't played DA:I, but from past experiences with Bioware yeah they're pretty big on tokenism. Very few LGBTQ characters in games in my own personal experience don't come off as kind of gimmicky, but at the same time though video games are still a pretty immature medium in a lot of ways so I don't expect a whole lot. Arcade in New Vegas is probably the best one I can think of off the top of my head (I use that game as an example all the time but it just does so many things right), who is actually pretty well done.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Shahada said:


> I don't necessarily think this is always the case, and I haven't played DA:I, but from past experiences with Bioware yeah they're pretty big on tokenism. Very few LGBTQ characters in games in my own personal experience don't come off as kind of gimmicky, but at the same time though video games are still a pretty immature medium in a lot of ways so I don't expect a whole lot. Arcade in New Vegas is probably the best one I can think of off the top of my head (I use that game as an example all the time but it just does so many things right), who is actually pretty well done.


I've heard of Arcade a lot and I can't wait to get my PS3 working and play it to see him and interact with him.
I always remember Poison because she doesn't give a crap nor wears it as a flag, I like that a lot. I like when it's a character trait but it's not all that defines it. Like Kaine from NieR.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Playful Proxy said:


> I'm just worried because most cis women can wear boy clothes and still be seen as women in public.


Sadly that's not totally true. Women have a pressure to look and dress female.



> nce where I work is full of conservative people, I can't exactly go in there one day (I know, I know, but only income source I've got atm), when I go out to eat, I usually just see how I'm perceived and while occasionally there's a funny look or pause...they still end up landing undeniably on 'Is that all you'd like,*sir?" :crying:*


Don't worry, love. I get that all the time. Here's how I look like.












> I mean, I get makeup, proper clothing help, but if I'm in makeup and clothing and DONT get seen as female, they'll thing I"m a total weirdo. At best, I just am told I look young, or really cute, or something like that.


Again, I get that all the time. I look really young and cute. It's really weird is when I try to look like a woman.


----------



## Playful Proxy

WamphyriThrall said:


> I would further remind you that there are plenty of passable trans men and women who get "clocked from time to time, even post-transition.


I knooow, but I so wish I wouldn't be. Ever. :/ 


WamphyriThrall said:


> Have you already started HRT?


Yeah, I've been on HRT for 9 months now. 

Like, I'm still going after a haircut and stuff like that soon so I know there are needed improvements, but face/bonewise...uuugh. My TODO pre college is haircut/styled, bra to give me SOME shape there (34A....yeah, blah), some clothes like skinny jeans, maybe a sweater/jacket or so, some fitted t-shirts, and maybe a pair of flats for when my neon green converse would look ridiculous. 
Here's me atm: 

* *


----------



## WamphyriThrall

Playful Proxy said:


> I knooow, but I so wish I wouldn't be. Ever. :/
> 
> Yeah, I've been on HRT for 9 months now.
> 
> Like, I'm still going after a haircut and stuff like that soon so I know there are needed improvements, but face/bonewise...uuugh. My TODO pre college is haircut/styled, bra to give me SOME shape there (34A....yeah, blah), some clothes like skinny jeans, maybe a sweater/jacket or so, some fitted t-shirts, and maybe a pair of flats for when my neon green converse would look ridiculous.
> Here's me atm:
> 
> * *


Are you wearing any makeup in that pic? The only thing that stands out are your eye brows: they definitely give you a more masculine look.


----------



## Playful Proxy

WamphyriThrall said:


> Are you wearing any makeup in that pic? The only thing that stands out are your eye brows: they definitely give you a more masculine look.


0 makeup worn in that pic (If I were, I'd have definitely covered the acne near the mouth :frustrating
And blah, yeah, what's sad is that those are shaped xD you should have seen them before, but I'll probably get them a bit more thinned out as well.


----------



## WamphyriThrall

Playful Proxy said:


> 0 makeup worn in that pic (If I were, I'd have definitely covered the acne near the mouth :frustrating
> And blah, yeah, what's sad is that those are shaped xD you should have seen them before, but I'll probably get them a bit more thinned out as well.


I was also going to mention hair style/length, but it didn't stand out nearly so much. 

You'd be surprised (or maybe not) at what even a bit of the basics can do you for, ie eye shadow, concealer, etc. I've seen what looked like full-grown, burly men become the opposite with these items.

If I weren't so lazy, and actually cared for those products, I *know* I'd fool more than just a few people. I'm fine being thin and androgynous, though! :tongue:


----------



## Jennywocky

The eyebrows actually have a nice arc. You could thin them a little, but eyebrows are coming back into vogue nowadays. You have a good slim build, which is helpful. Are you on both estro and spiro? (You don't have to answer that if you don't want, just curious about whether you'd be adding anything to your regimen or if you're already steadily on.)

Makeup drives me nuts. It can be very helpful, but there are so many things out there you can use, price doesn't necessarily mean something is better or worse, and I think it's helpful to actually read up a lot on it or have someone who knows what they're doing teach tips in order to use it effectively.

Kind of funny looking at a pictorial today of celebrities with/without makeup and seeing what a drastic difference it can make. It seems to work the best when it's there but not really leaping out.



WamphyriThrall said:


> I would remind you that those women have no problem with being seen as women in guy clothes.
> 
> I would further remind you that there are plenty of passable trans men and women who get "clocked from time to time, even post-transition.


Heck, I know cisgens who sometimes get read as the other gender on occasion depending on situation. The thing is mostly that they didn't have the bad emotional experiences regarding gender growing up, so depending on the person they sometimes just laugh it off and find it amusing.


----------



## Entropic

Playful Proxy said:


> I knooow, but I so wish I wouldn't be. Ever. :/
> 
> Yeah, I've been on HRT for 9 months now.
> 
> Like, I'm still going after a haircut and stuff like that soon so I know there are needed improvements, but face/bonewise...uuugh. My TODO pre college is haircut/styled, bra to give me SOME shape there (34A....yeah, blah), some clothes like skinny jeans, maybe a sweater/jacket or so, some fitted t-shirts, and maybe a pair of flats for when my neon green converse would look ridiculous.
> Here's me atm:
> 
> * *


I would try to wear shorter shirts that stop just right at your hips or above. These go so far down that they give your body a more box-y shape, which is contrary to what you seek (hourglass). Also, I recommend wearing a visible belt. It will add an illusion of your hips being broader than they are. Having shirts that have a clearly defined waist helps too. Like was mentioned, big brows are getting fashionable again but I think how well they work probably depends a lot on one's existing features. 

I think face wise your biggest problem here is your forehead and how you wear your cut. Your hair is curly but it doesn't fall in a way that's necessarily typically feminine nor masculine. Getting a more feminine cut will help a lot and I would focus on a cut that makes your face look rounder. Since your hair seems naturally curly, I'd focus on getting more volume on the top and side of your head. A round face is seen as more feminine than not. 

Also, I think even a simple application of makeup can have a significant effect for you. I'd look into lip balm and mascara as two very easy and quick to apply things. Try to pick a lip balm/stick with a red-ish color. You want it to be a bit strong. Red lips are associated with femininity. In addition to that, a strong color will help to distinguish your lips from the rest of your face and make them look bigger and fuller than they actually are, which again is a feminine trait. Same applies to mascara here, in that long eyelashes are seen as feminine and mascara will help to bring forth your lashes and make them look bigger and longer than they are.

Other than that, your face is totally passable. It's the small things here that matter. Your primary concern would be to try to gain some more fat on your hip, butt and thigh areas and if you can't/won't gain any weight, use cues such as belts in order to help define this area and make your shoulders seem smaller. 

Also, colors matter. Light colors seem to take up less space and strong and dark colors more space. Since you want to look like you got smaller shoulders compared to hips, you want to focus on bright and light colors when it comes to shirts, but dark and strong colors when it comes to pants. In this photo for example, the pants are overshadowed by the shirt. It should be the other way around. Other than that, stripes can be useful when it comes to giving the illusion of size. Horizontal stripes creates a sense of things being broader and bigger than they are, but vertical smaller and box-y.

Another thing to consider is clothes volume in general. The more puffy/fluffy, the more shape it gives your body. Try to find clothes that are puffy/fluffy around areas you want to seem bigger at (hips, thighs, butt) or placed in such a way that other areas seem smaller e.g. puffy arms on a shirt can give the impression that your arms and shoulders seem very small in contrast to the puffs, in addition to having clothes that contract around areas you want to seem small i.e. waist.

When it comes to belts, you want to wear broad belts around your waist to your waist seem small, big small belts for your hips to make your hips seem big.


----------



## LibertyPrime

<.<...>.> God bless your transsexual hearts .


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Playful Proxy said:


> I knooow, but I so wish I wouldn't be. Ever. :/
> 
> Yeah, I've been on HRT for 9 months now.
> 
> Like, I'm still going after a haircut and stuff like that soon so I know there are needed improvements, but face/bonewise...uuugh. My TODO pre college is haircut/styled, bra to give me SOME shape there (34A....yeah, blah), some clothes like skinny jeans, maybe a sweater/jacket or so, some fitted t-shirts, and maybe a pair of flats for when my neon green converse would look ridiculous.
> Here's me atm:
> 
> * *


Don't worry! You look like an adorable tomboy!


----------



## Playful Proxy

Jennywocky said:


> Are you on both estro and spiro?


I'm on highest estro dose, Spiro(enough so that my T is within bio female range according to last bloodtest), and progesterone.


----------



## Strayfire

Honestly, you look really cute, @Playful Proxy !

I wish I had your courage c;


----------



## The Chameleon

FreeBeer said:


> <.<...>.> God bless your transsexual hearts .


omg THIS SONG IS MY LIFE
(also my mom is friends with laura heh heh)


----------



## Playful Proxy

strayfire said:


> Honestly, you look really cute, @_Playful Proxy_ !
> 
> I wish I had your courage c;


Thank you.  Tbh, I don't know if I'd call it courage. Kinda like being chased by a tiger and diving off a 50ft cliff into the river below. Would diving that high normally be courageous? Maybe, but when you've got a tiger on your tail, you don't know if you'll die by the fall, but you DO know the tiger will eat you if you don't.

(Yes, I am terrible with metaphors)


----------



## Metaplanar

I did the thing and had my hair cut.

They were really really long before and it's all short now. It's weird and sort of awesome and it actually looks pretty good on me 
Well, for now. Let's see what it does once I sleep on it.

Will report on effects and reactions if any interesting ones happen.

Not even really sure about my personal feelings on the change yet. Looked objectively good before and does so now. I guess. But it just...kind of...doesn't matter? 
I mean, it's weird strings of dead protein growing from your head, why do we collectively as a species even - no stop, that line of thought is pointless.
I kind of really like how it feels, it's almost like I have cat fur on my head, which makes much more sense than those long strings humans grow? And it's not getting stuck on stuff anymore. So that's good. Otherwise it's just new which makes it interesting and exciting, but that doesn't really mean a thing?


----------



## Playful Proxy

Metaplanar said:


> I did the thing and had my hair cut.
> I mean, it's weird strings of dead protein growing from your head, why do we collectively as a species even - no stop, that line of thought is pointless.


But with enough lines, you can make a plane, and with enough planes, you can make 3D objects and that's just cool!


----------



## starshipuk

I've been having dreams about being trans. In the first one I was going to a new university where I would be living on campus and the only dorm options were separated by gender, and I had to decide which one to go to. At first I made a last minute decision and followed the girls to their dorm, but the minute I got there I realised I'd made a terrible mistake. I turned right around and went to find the guys' dorm. When I first got there, the guys were confused and said stuff like "but you're a girl" but then I told them I was trans. I talked to them a bit and after a surprisingly short while I did something (I don't know what) that made them accept me as one of them. They then immediately changed the pronouns they used for me and everything and then we just hung out, and my trans status did not matter at all. In all of my dreams since then, I have continued to be accepted completely as male.

I think my subconscious might be trying to tell me something... now, if only real life were that easy.


----------



## Entropic

Read this comment on IGN regarding the inability to upload LGTBQ sims:



> I feel bad for your bigotry.
> 
> also I truly hope you are just trolling, it feels like you are trolling. otherwise it might be time to ask yourself this simple question: *Are they really the problem, when you're the one full of hate?*


Man, sometimes there is justice.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Entropic said:


> Read this comment on IGN regarding the inability to upload LGTBQ sims:
> 
> 
> 
> Man, sometimes there is justice.


Really? You can have then in the game but not upload them? I have the feel it's some parents complaining about it and EA just outright didn't want shot with them. The game was heavily censored in some countries after all.


----------



## Entropic

Jetstream Aya said:


> Really? You can have then in the game but not upload them? I have the feel it's some parents complaining about it and EA just outright didn't want shot with them. The game was heavily censored in some countries after all.


They are changing it so you can do it at some point.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Entropic said:


> They are changing it so you can do it at some point.


I feel like EA just have birth to an unfinished Sims to get money to continue making it an actual Sims game while we play it.


----------



## Entropic

Jetstream Aya said:


> I feel like EA just have birth to an unfinished Sims to get money to continue making it an actual Sims game while we play it.


Yeah, I agreed. I downloaded it and installed it the other day and the game feels so incomplete compared to Sims 3 that I too, felt was incomplete compared to 2 upon its release. The few changes that were there are good and hold a lot of future potential but right now I feel it's mostly untapped. The new UI is great, the new build and buy mode is great, the mood system is great too, but they took some things too far. Removing all sliders in CAS for example. Instead CAS feels very clunky sometimes and you lack that accuracy. 

Also another thing that kind of ticks me off is that there is no way to have an unknown or unmarked gender of your sim.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Entropic said:


> Yeah, I agreed. I downloaded it and installed it the other day and the game feels so incomplete compared to Sims 3 that I too, felt was incomplete compared to 2 upon its release. The few changes that were there are good and hold a lot of future potential but right now I feel it's mostly untapped. The new UI is great, the new build and buy mode is great, the mood system is great too, but they took some things too far. Removing all sliders in CAS for example. Instead CAS feels very clunky sometimes and you lack that accuracy.
> 
> Also another thing that kind of ticks me off is that there is no way to have an unknown or unmarked gender of your sim.


I don't mind the unmarked Sim since it serves to biological say if it's female or male (it's not that simple, but let's keep it that way), it's still possible to have a very masculine female Sim or a very feminine male Sim, which I think it's great. But like you said I miss the sliders and the cloth customization from the 3. The only problem with 3 is that it took ages to load an area and you could see all the textures loading up, especially if you played on a laptop.

I wanna play more Sims 4 but I want to wait for some expansions or big updates. I'm not sure about buying the game either because Origin doesn't work very well.


----------



## Entropic

Jetstream Aya said:


> I don't mind the unmarked Sim since it serves to biological say if it's female or male (it's not that simple, but let's keep it that way), it's still possible to have a very masculine female Sim or a very feminine male Sim, which I think it's great. But like you said I miss the sliders and the cloth customization from the 3. The only problem with 3 is that it took ages to load an area and you could see all the textures loading up, especially if you played on a laptop.


Yeah, I can understand that though for all intents and purposes, seeing how sex has little bearing on pregnancy in the game nowadays, it seems pretty moot. And yes, the problem with 3 is that it was just poorly written which put serious limitations on the actual game performance. I have a lot of CC for example, and I reached the maximum size of how much RAM the game can use (about 2.6 gb) and if you try to enter buy mode when this threshold is reached, it's going to take forever for the game to load buy mode which is having a heavy negative impact on the game. There should be some clear cache feature that solves this in the game. You don't need to keep all of it stored and loaded on the RAM while playing. 



> I wanna play more Sims 4 but I want to wait for some expansions or big updates. I'm not sure about buying the game either because Origin doesn't work very well.


Yeah, agreed.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Entropic said:


> Yeah, I can understand that though for all intents and purposes, seeing how sex has little bearing on pregnancy in the game nowadays, it seems pretty moot.


Yeah, I can understand that. It would be cool to control their sexuality rather than having all bisexual Sims, but I don't mind that. We can even have asexual Sims if we play our cards right within the game.



> And yes, the problem with 3 is that it was just poorly written which put serious limitations on the actual game performance.


I always thought it was a problem with the engine performing badly in laptops, but I guess it could be how the game was programmed. But I think you made a very good point too.


----------



## Playful Proxy

*huffs*, was a trans-related thread in the debate section and I started throwing together some links in neuroscience. It got locked before I hit submit but was done. Throwing em here instead. 

Structural Connectivity Networks of Transgender People
http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956(10)00158-5/abstract
Androgen Receptor Repeat Length Polymorphism Associated with Male-to-Female Transsexualism


----------



## Crimplene for men

Hi there, is it OK to join this thread. I'm not a trans person myself, but my daughter is.


----------



## Entropic

Crimplene for men said:


> Hi there, is it OK to join this thread. I'm not a trans person myself, but my daughter is.


This is a support thread for people who are trans or people who know people who are trans, so yes.


----------



## Crimplene for men

Entropic said:


> This is a support thread for people who are trans or people who know people who are trans, so yes.


Thanks. :happy:

Can I just ask what people think parents should do with transgender teens? My policy is to support and give my daughter a safe environment where she can be herself, and to take her to the gender clinic. 

Can you think of anything else?


----------



## Playful Proxy

Crimplene for men said:


> Thanks. :happy:
> 
> Can I just ask what people think parents should do with transgender teens? My policy is to support and give my daughter a safe environment where she can be herself, and to take her to the gender clinic.
> 
> Can you think of anything else?


Gender clinic is a good place, does she have a psychologist or therapist she sees regularly? With this kind of stuff it's not required but...due to the complexity of the problem, I would say it is definitely a help. A lot of the process is going to be mostly asking her where she is at emotionally or psychologically and supporting her in what she chooses. Not all trans people want surgery or hormones.


----------



## Entropic

Crimplene for men said:


> Thanks. :happy:
> 
> Can I just ask what people think parents should do with transgender teens? My policy is to support and give my daughter a safe environment where she can be herself, and to take her to the gender clinic.
> 
> Can you think of anything else?


To be honest, being accepting and supportive of her chosen identity goes a long way.


----------



## The Chameleon

Crimplene for men said:


> Thanks. :happy:
> 
> Can I just ask what people think parents should do with transgender teens? My policy is to support and give my daughter a safe environment where she can be herself, and to take her to the gender clinic.
> 
> Can you think of anything else?


Damn, do I wish all moms were like you. I'm really glad that you so actively want to support your daughter. 
The only thing I can think of is, _for the love of god, PLEASE use her prefered pronouns and prefered name if you aren't already._ My mom likes to consider herself supportive of me yet she rarely uses my preferred name and has never once used my preferred pronouns. Even though it doesn't seem like much it's SOOOOO helpful. By doing so you're acknowledging that you see your daughter as female and you respect that. That's really the only thing I can stress.


----------



## Entropic

The Chameleon said:


> Damn, do I wish all moms were like you. I'm really glad that you so actively want to support your daughter.
> The only thing I can think of is, _for the love of god, PLEASE use her prefered pronouns and prefered name if you aren't already._ My mom likes to consider herself supportive of me yet she rarely uses my preferred name and has never once used my preferred pronouns. Even though it doesn't seem like much it's SOOOOO helpful. By doing so you're acknowledging that you see your daughter as female and you respect that. That's really the only thing I can stress.


I can understand slip-ups, my family does a lot sigh, but yes, active mindfulness helps a lot when it comes to this. The very notion of being misnamed/gendered brings back dysphoria though not as much as it used to. 

Some people don't try. I think that's what hurts the most.


----------



## Flatlander

Crimplene for men said:


> Thanks. :happy:
> 
> Can I just ask what people think parents should do with transgender teens? My policy is to support and give my daughter a safe environment where she can be herself, and to take her to the gender clinic.
> 
> Can you think of anything else?


You're already ahead of the curve. Especially if you're appropriately referencing your child - to echo one of the comments above, that really matters. Being referred to the right way helps one feel safe and at home with people and in the environment.


----------



## The Chameleon

Entropic said:


> I can understand slip-ups, my family does a lot sigh, but yes, active mindfulness helps a lot when it comes to this. The very notion of being misnamed/gendered brings back dysphoria though not as much as it used to.
> 
> Some people don't try. I think that's what hurts the most.


True words. My mom literally said to me she's not "ready" to start using my pronouns and she hasn't.


----------



## AliceWonder

Hello,

Some have said I fall under the umbrella of transgender but I am not transsexual. Born with male parts, identify as male, happy identifying as male.

I do however cross-dress. Usually it is just panties but sometimes I go full out, which means a corset and a dress and a wig - but I only do that for special occasions.

My reasons for cross dressing is it makes me feel pretty, which is a feeling I enjoy. Not usually a masculine desire but it is my desire.

I also prefer female-led relationships, including some femdom - but the femdom is role play, not lifestyle. One of the role-plays I enjoy is sissy maid, where I am put in an over-sexualized outfit as her maid, I fantasize about doing that with guests but that hasn't been played out - it could only be played out with guests that approve of getting involved in kink play beforehand. A lot of people assume sissy play involves the sissy having ****-erotic desires but that's not the case with me, or many men who enjoy it. That's more of a porn thing though some do.

Even though I am not transsexual, my heart goes out to those who are. The attitudes and outright discrimination you are at the receiving on is something no one should experience, and I want it to stop. Hopefully the situation will continue to improve.

Alice Wonder


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## Entropic

The Chameleon said:


> True words. My mom literally said to me she's not "ready" to start using my pronouns and she hasn't.


That's fucked up. Sounds like she was pulling an excuse to me. 



AliceWonder said:


> Hello,
> 
> Some have said I fall under the umbrella of transgender but I am not transsexual. Born with male parts, identify as male, happy identifying as male.
> 
> I do however cross-dress. Usually it is just panties but sometimes I go full out, which means a corset and a dress and a wig - but I only do that for special occasions.
> 
> My reasons for cross dressing is it makes me feel pretty, which is a feeling I enjoy. Not usually a masculine desire but it is my desire.
> 
> I also prefer female-led relationships, including some femdom - but the femdom is role play, not lifestyle. One of the role-plays I enjoy is sissy maid, where I am put in an over-sexualized outfit as her maid, I fantasize about doing that with guests but that hasn't been played out - it could only be played out with guests that approve of getting involved in kink play beforehand. A lot of people assume sissy play involves the sissy having ****-erotic desires but that's not the case with me, or many men who enjoy it. That's more of a porn thing though some do.
> 
> Even though I am not transsexual, my heart goes out to those who are. The attitudes and outright discrimination you are at the receiving on is something no one should experience, and I want it to stop. Hopefully the situation will continue to improve.
> 
> Alice Wonder


Yeah, you can argue that crossdressing is a part of transgender as an umbrella term though of course not the same as those who socially transition and such. Some crossdressers can have complex gender identities despite that though, feeling that they inhabit different identities based on who they currently dress as, so in such a sense it's not much different except it's more of a case-to-case basis. 

I think it's pretty cool though - crossdressers are a minority group in the trans movement. They don't receive any less discrimination, but people don't speak about them because their issues aren't as "great" whatever, since in a way many of them can still be classified as cis. Well, it's dumb and over-simplifying if you ask me but that's how it is.


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## Crimplene for men

@Playful Proxy What country are you in? Don't have to say here, you can PM. 
@The Chameleon I know what you mean about the pronouns. However, us parents have got into the habit of using your old name and the old pronouns. It's easy to slip up, but I do try and it's getting easier.  Your mum might be in shock as I was, and not because of any negative judgement, but mainly because I'd never considered the fact that my child might be transgender. I thought my daughter was gay, but being gay doesn't require any action, whereas being transgender does, if that makes sense? I was freaking, because it's a massive thing for a teenager to go through. 
@Flatlander Thanks for the advice. It is my child and I just want to do the right thing by them.


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## The Chameleon

Crimplene for men said:


> @The Chameleon I know what you mean about the pronouns. However, us parents have got into the habit of using your old name and the old pronouns. It's easy to slip up, but I do try and it's getting easier.  Your mum might be in shock as I was, and not because of any negative judgement, but mainly because I'd never considered the fact that my child might be transgender. I thought my daughter was gay, but being gay doesn't require any action, whereas being transgender does, if that makes sense? I was freaking, because it's a massive thing for a teenager to go through.


I totally understand! Some of my closest friends slip up now and then, it's not a big deal. But intentionally not using someone's pronouns/name is!
And I think that's probably the case with my mom, but she isn't handling it too well. She's confused as to how I can be male but still have effeminate tendencies (hair-flipping, overall fabulousness, etc.), how and why I'm trans, and how non-op trans is different from non-binary. I know she's just trying to understand but it's really frustrating sometimes, because it almost seems like she's doubting the fact I'm trans. ** lists a bunch of other stuff my mom has done to not be "supportive" **


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## Crimplene for men

@The Chameleon - I'm sorry to hear that you aren't getting all the support you need from you mum. My daughter is male to female and hasn't had any physical treatment yet, mainly because of the country we live in. First, we have to go through a lot of counseling sessions. 

Maybe your mum is in shock. Will she go shopping with you or buy clothes for you? Is she OK in that respect?


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## The Chameleon

Crimplene for men said:


> @The Chameleon - I'm sorry to hear that you aren't getting all the support you need from you mum. My daughter is male to female and hasn't had any physical treatment yet, mainly because of the country we live in. First, we have to go through a lot of counseling sessions.
> 
> Maybe your mum is in shock. Will she go shopping with you or buy clothes for you? Is she OK in that respect?


Yeah, she's fine with that and we've gone a few times but haven't gotten much. 1. I'm anxious as fuck when it comes to shopping 2. Some of the stuff I liked she was like "ehh we don't really need that do we"


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## Entropic

reillybites said:


> Hi! Thought I'd share some of my own stuff here ouo
> I knew I always hated being a girl, or at least I was never completely comfortable with it. For a long ass time, though, I was genderfluid/nonbinary,


Yeah, I thought I was bigender for a while because it was easier to accept the idea that I was both at the time, I think, because I was confused over when you so to say, stop being female or not, seeing how there is allowance for greater variance if you are born female than male. 

Never really liked feminine stuff though, so my problem was the opposite that I must be atypical or tomboy or such because there are plenty of those, too.


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## Momentz

I was just recalling that time in first-ish grade when I mentioned that I wish I were the opposite sex, and they all laughed.


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## Playful Proxy

Dear Spiro: While I'm aware you lower blood pressure, making me black out and having to grab the wall for support in front of my family is NOT a good way to convince them HRT is helping me. My mom now thinks it is slowly killing me (Yes medical people, I wasn't hydrated...I know, I'll drink more water...shhhh). >.>


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## reillybites

Fuck I'm late for intros, I started writing it like last week then got heavily distracted. I'm very easily distracted. (cue segue)
My name is, as you can probs tell, Reilly. I'm a feminine, nerdy, cute latino boy with piercings accessorizing my face and blue hair. I love LOVE stories and any medium that tells stories (Probably why I'm in so many goddamn fandoms). I especially love fairy tales, like the original fairy tales, since it fits my love of things that are obscenely cute and horrifically creepy at the same time. Don't be fooled by my rather liberal usage of text talk and slang and over usage of terms of endearment, I started doing that for ironic purposes and now I c a n t stop. I'm actual pretty critical about literature and uptight about grammar in srs situations.
Aaaand I also ramble a lot, so Imma stop before I tangent!


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## maxwellc

Cosplay world has a high ratio of female to males.
Plus they look damn sexy as anime guys.


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## Aya the Abysswalker

maxwellc said:


> Cosplay world has a high ratio of female to males.
> Plus they look damn sexy as anime guys.


Expect when they're me. I just look awful as a guy, I'm way too feminine. Sadly enough.


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## maxwellc

Jetstream Aya said:


> Expect when they're me. I just look awful as a guy, I'm way too feminine. Sadly enough.


Nonsense, that just means you have to be a shota.










































































That's the thing about female to males cosplayers and trans ones more so, they can appear 10 years younger or more.


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## Aya the Abysswalker

maxwellc said:


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If I'm to cosplay I don't want to be something that I already am. I want to be badass.

Like Harlock.










I have to pull 200 euros off somewhere to get this done.


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## maxwellc

Jetstream Aya said:


> I want to be badass.
> 
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Go for it!


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## reillybites

maxwellc said:


>


Holy crap I know this person, I actually went to that con with her @[email protected]
I'm perfectly content cosplaying as shotas, I practically am one ;D


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## lolthevoidlol

Red: "Non-Binary" Person Rejects Male/Female Gender Duality : Indybay


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## Kazoo The Kid

Is a trans person...suppose to feel trans since birth?

I really don't want to get a sex change or any sort of surgery but i've always been attracted to the female identity in general, but at the same time I don't wanna be that person whose doing it for the "ooo its cool" factor. 

Basically I want to explore gender identity, but I dont want to be a dick about it????? Is it something that's suppose to feel "nesseccary?". 

I've always been a a sort of heteronormative "mainstream" member of the gay community mostly because I have horrible anxiety and if I explored gender identity and left my house in anything other than male clothes i'd probably have a panic attack' despite how much I would really WANT to do that. 

Transgender/nonbinary is a sort of radical thing and I'm one of those people that if I particpated in it i'd probably be uncomfortable because I want to be accepted by the mainstream?????

And honestly I tried to explain this before and attempted to post here, but I got too nervous and decided not too. But dosent that mean its important to me in someway?

Basically I want to explore gender identity, but I'm too much of a bitch to even admit to myself because I'm so heteronormative and mainstream.


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## Playful Proxy

Entirely random note: women's skinny jeans are surprisingly comfortable.  Literally useless pockets, but comfortable. Bragging rights? Size 4!


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## Flatlander

Kazoo said:


> Is a trans person...suppose to feel trans since birth?
> 
> I really don't want to get a sex change or any sort of surgery but i've always been attracted to the female identity in general, but at the same time I don't wanna be that person whose doing it for the "ooo its cool" factor.
> 
> Basically I want to explore gender identity, but I dont want to be a dick about it????? Is it something that's suppose to feel "nesseccary?".
> 
> I've always been a a sort of heteronormative "mainstream" member of the gay community mostly because I have horrible anxiety and if I explored gender identity and left my house in anything other than male clothes i'd probably have a panic attack' despite how much I would really WANT to do that.
> 
> Transgender/nonbinary is a sort of radical thing and I'm one of those people that if I particpated in it i'd probably be uncomfortable because I want to be accepted by the mainstream?????
> 
> And honestly I tried to explain this before and attempted to post here, but I got too nervous and decided not too. But dosent that mean its important to me in someway?
> 
> Basically I want to explore gender identity, but I'm too much of a bitch to even admit to myself because I'm so heteronormative and mainstream.


The answer to that is probably to go, at first, to someplace it's accepted/normal, so that you can safely try it out. Once you feel a bit more comfortable, you can decide which way to take things.


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## Golden Rose

maxwellc said:


> Nonsense, that just means you have to be a shota.
> 
> That's the thing about female to males cosplayers and trans ones more so, they can appear 10 years younger or more.


That weird stage where you look way younger even as a female but you're way too tall to be a shota.
I usually don't give a shit though, I enjoy cosplaying what's fun, feels like me and gets my imagination running wild.

Sucks in group cosplays though, those tend to be hella anal.


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## AesSidhe

It's sad to see Chris Crocker (famous for the viral video: "Leave Britney Alone") this confused. I think he/she might feel much happier if maybe he/she learned about the term Queer?


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## Flatlander

AesSidhe said:


> It's sad to see Chris Crocker (famous for the viral video: "Leave Britney Alone") this confused. I think he/she might feel much happier if maybe he/she learned about the term Queer?


What I gathered from this is that they aren't_ transsexual_. They seem to see themself as transgender, but at the same time the whole bit about being male in the bedroom is a primal depth you can't control. That's a bottom line for your brain. A lot of the reason for my own transition goes into that depth and body basis - because I have that urge to be "male in the bedroom", however well I pass in society and what have you, it still makes that aspect of my life _wrong_. At least Chris got that part of their life okay.

It'd be hard to say I understand where they're coming from. Intellectually I do, as I understand it'd be hard to identify one way and realize your instinct goes against your mind. But I have always been one to align with my instinct when I finally recognize it. It makes me pretty simple for a transperson, not needing to delve too deep into gender identity or all the fancy associated concepts to know where I stand. This person is on the flipside of me, where they've been living in that world of gender concepts and identity, and I think they're right when they say they need to do their thinking. I'd be curious to see where they end up.


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## Entropic

I think they are right in that it needs to be recognized that transgender as an umbrella term is not only about transsexuals. Personally, how I want to be like in the bedroom was never much of a concern for me because I don't have any strong sexual drive to begin with and I got physiological problems to do it the way I was "born" to do it, which puts it all on a very different level as a category on its own, though I do think that they could somehow be linked. The realization I was trans and far more likely transsexual over just some different variation of transgender stems for me, mostly in part in how I often fantasized as being born as male, especially in my teens during puberty, and I how I experienced psychological discomfort surrounding my gender identity as a supposed female in various social situations including aspects surrounding my physical body. I mean, the argument of how one does it in the bedroom isn't necessarily a strong one, at the end of the day, because what about gay men then? I don't have any particular sexuality or sexual preference, so it's like whatever to me. I prefer being submissive as a whole, but that's about it. The real kicker is that I do not experience any psychological discomfort anymore, because of how I'm seen and treated in relation to others and how my body is changing though I wish there would be more and greater changes. 

So feeling stuck or caught inbetween is something I can sympathize with, since that is how I positioned myself for many years, though I do not experience the problems with masculine-feminine the way he does. I used to think I was bigender but my basis on that kind of position was flawed because I assumed I actually did identify with my gender assigned at birth when I never did, ergo I experienced discomfort surrounding being recognized as such and labeling myself as such. My inherent problem was that I was mentally speaking, still very much locked up in an idea of male and female as separate and that I am not allowed to cross or mix these entities. A big difference was when I realized how arbitrary this is, though people are unfortunately taught it as a truth that the categories need and should be kept separate e.g. men's vs women's clothing.


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## jeb

Kazoo said:


> Is a trans person...suppose to feel trans since birth?
> 
> I really don't want to get a sex change or any sort of surgery but i've always been attracted to the female identity in general, but at the same time I don't wanna be that person whose doing it for the "ooo its cool" factor.
> 
> Basically I want to explore gender identity, but I dont want to be a dick about it????? Is it something that's suppose to feel "nesseccary?".
> 
> I've always been a a sort of heteronormative "mainstream" member of the gay community mostly because I have horrible anxiety and if I explored gender identity and left my house in anything other than male clothes i'd probably have a panic attack' despite how much I would really WANT to do that.
> 
> Transgender/nonbinary is a sort of radical thing and I'm one of those people that if I particpated in it i'd probably be uncomfortable because I want to be accepted by the mainstream?????
> 
> And honestly I tried to explain this before and attempted to post here, but I got too nervous and decided not too. But dosent that mean its important to me in someway?
> 
> Basically I want to explore gender identity, but I'm too much of a bitch to even admit to myself because I'm so heteronormative and mainstream.


What I get from this is that you're interested in crossdressing? 

Also, there are plenty of trans people who choose not to augment their bodies in any way. It's all about how you see yourself and what you're comfortable with. 

Depending on where you are, I've heard about different social events for trans people and crossdressers and it might be something worth checking out. There are also lots of online groups to join, moreso for trans women and crossdressers than any other non normative gender groups. 

I don't share the view completely, but I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to be accepted by the mainstream. It sure makes things easier when you are. If you dip your toes in, see the options available, ask people questions you need answers to like: how do they feel when they're out in public or at a social event, how does their experience make them feel they're seen by the mainstream, etc.


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## Flatlander

Entropic said:


> I think they are right in that it needs to be recognized that transgender as an umbrella term is not only about transsexuals. Personally, how I want to be like in the bedroom was never much of a concern for me because I don't have any strong sexual drive to begin with and I got physiological problems to do it the way I was "born" to do it, which puts it all on a very different level as a category on its own, though I do think that they could somehow be linked. The realization I was trans and far more likely transsexual over just some different variation of transgender stems for me, mostly in part in how I often fantasized as being born as male, especially in my teens during puberty, and I how I experienced psychological discomfort surrounding my gender identity as a supposed female in various social situations including aspects surrounding my physical body. I mean, the argument of how one does it in the bedroom isn't necessarily a strong one, at the end of the day, because what about gay men then?


Gay men still picture themselves as men in the bedroom. Men who may enjoy a different type of stimulation are still men.

That's essentially Chris' point, I think, and I think it's very important. It may be one thing if you were seriously not sexual in the first place, but most people aren't asexual by a long shot. For many years, I lied to myself and lived like I was asexual, but really what it comes down to is I don't have the parts I want to use in sex. Especially at first in my life, it made sex, or even the idea of sex, in this body, an upsetting and wrong experience for me. It's made it hard for me to be active with people in that realm, which can make adult life lose a lot of its color. I'm happy for Chris that they don't seem to experience that. I'm also saying that it basically indicates to me they aren't transsexual, because at the level of carnality, in one of the two most intimate acts between human beings, Chris doesn't really seem to want the opposite sex's body.


----------



## AesSidhe

Jennywocky said:


> That's a decent-enough analogy for it, yes. I'm content that for me that joy I actually experience for the people I see seems to outweigh the pain in that moment of contemplation. (I typically don't get super-down about it unless I'm focusing just on my own life, when I'm not thinking of other things that can help balance it out.)


Uh huh, it all comes down to people their base state of mind. If people are already sad and contemplating their own 'deficiencies' than looking at videos like that might amplify their own perceived deficiencies. But if someone is in a happy state of mind, seeing others experience joy might amplify that happiness. 




Jennywocky said:


> Thanks. not sure what to say. I think I have a pretty face overall and feel fortunate in that regard. Just my body feels big and clunky, and I don't have a female ratio in my proportions which makes me feel hugely conspicuous. (That's mostly what I think of that an earlier start could have really helped with. But... again... nothing to do about it, so it's best not to obsess... )


I'm curious, your avatar, is it you with blond long hair and joker make-up? 



Jennywocky said:


> Yeah, I agree on that aspect -- there are more resources when you've had time to build a career. of course, it's not quite so clear-cut -- I could have paid for a lot out of pocket, but I have three children who much of my money has gone towards, versus just spending it getting what I felt I needed. (I had to dip into my own future, my IRA, to pay for things I needed... and I so much did not want to do that, sigh.) There are still things I'd do, but even with a great job, my kids need that money for their schooling and whatever else (plus the debt I'm still paying off), so... that's where it's going. And if you're married (I'm not, anymore)... well, that's a huge can of worms to deal with, in terms of what happens to the marriage and all the emotional stress of working through things. I think the best situation for adults is single, in a decent-paying job, in terms of getting things done quickly.


I don't even want to imagine how horrible that can of worms could get if your partner doesn't accept/understand it, especially with the extra stress of kids involved and the tug of war that often happens amongst parents in situations like divorce. That gives your posts an even warmer feeling than they already do, especially if you then go to your profile and look at your picture album where you're in Orlando with your kids. It's so nice to see that everything worked out and it warms my heart 



Jennywocky said:


> The other big benefit adults have, tied into the money, is being independent and not so badly needing parental affirmation. It's hard as a teen to feel rejected by parents (as we saw with Leelah); it hurts as an adult, but the truth is your parents (and other adults) really no longer get a say, nor can they interfere with your decisions. Their affirmation is not quite so important to receive, even when it hurts when you don't get it.


Also as an adult you have much more social mobility, which makes it easier to escape/avoid such situations (especially in a big country like the USA where it's normal for people to relocate to a totally different state  )



Jennywocky said:


> yeah. That's probably one of the biggest, bestest changes I have seen in the last twenty years. Far more chance to not end up on the street without food or shelter, not so much emotional damage. Seriously, when I was a teenager, I think the only way I could have gone on hormones and transitioned at that age would have been to get on a bus and fend for myself in a large city like Philly or NYC. The meds weren't accessible, people didn't know what trans was except for talk shows (sensationalized), I would have only found what I needed in those kinds of urban centers... but I also would have probably had to do some things I wouldn't have wanted to do...  The options weren't really there, aside from a few specialists scattered around the US.
> 
> That was so far out of my experience and seemed so crazy that I never seriously considered it. Sometimes I wonder if I should have, rather than just taking paths of least resistance. But who knows what would have happened?


Yea look at shows like Jerry Springer and Doctor Phil, the way they portrayed and used transsexuals for their viewer rates, how they treated them and how they turned into huge jokes was horrible. It makes you even wonder why those transsexuals ever even volunteered to be part of the show. And that was generally how the public saw transsexual people. (Mostly ugly) lying, cheating, bitching people, who would get in each other their hair, beat each other up on stage, show their post-up status ON STAGE (luckily blurred out), etc. No wonder most people (used to) associate transsexuals with marginality, prostitution, sluts, etc.

In the past people couldn't even get surgery in Europe, instead most people from Western Europe had to go to Casablanca in Morocco to get surgery (Dr. Georges Burou 1910-1987. Talking about him I do want to note this to show what a good man he was: "In 1975 one patient addressed Burou, requesting his services, and received a prompt reply that detailed the cost of sex-reassignment surgery at U.S. $5000 “payable in cash upon arrival, if possible in travelers checks.” The price included “12 - 15 days hospitalization at the clinic, medical care and fees included, as well as the doctor’s payment.” This price is considered modest for the time based upon reports that indicated the average cost of sex-reassignment surgery was on the rise. Burou is said to have been willing to make “enormous” financial concessions to his fees whenever a case “merited the operation”. Reading this we might once again wonder why SRS most cost so much, since GID (Gender Identity Disorder) is a life threatening affliction and SRS (and FFS) are huge parts of treating this affliction, so why should it cost as much as it does the day of today?!), so yea things have improved a lot (although most European surgeons still aren't trusted and most people will go to Thailand or the USA for their surgery, and based on pictures I've seen I don't blame them)


----------



## Jennywocky

AesSidhe said:


> I'm curious, your avatar, is it you with blond long hair and joker make-up?


Oh gosh, if only... lol. That's actually the makeup artist -- she does some pretty amazing stuff with makeup. But I like the mix of humor and macabre. She's pretty stunning even without any makeup on, from what I've seen in other pics.

my most recent pic is on my profile page, I took a few over the weekend and put the quirky one up.



> I don't even want to imagine how horrible that can of worms could get if your partner doesn't accept/understand it, especially with the extra stress of kids involved and the tug of war that often happens amongst parents in situations like divorce. That gives your posts an even warmer feeling than they already do, especially if you then go to your profile and look at your picture album where you're in Orlando with your kids. It's so nice to see that everything worked out and it warms my heart


Yeah, we were both evangelical Christians in our beliefs, although I wasn't comfortable with a lot of how it was practiced and kept reexamining my views, realizing eventually I believed something else. Meanwhile, the trans thing loomed over our whole marriage, and since my spouse had a pretty defined view of roles for men and women, we just could not come to a reconciliation. We kept trying to work it out for years and years, both of us pretty miserable, and eventually when I decided that transition was a necessity for me, my ex didn't want to live together anymore, so we separated. The divorce happened once I got surgery and it was clear I wasn't going to change my mind and "go back." Still, the kids were never really put in the middle, which was really good, and the "family" is still there even if we are not married any longer. We still share a meal together (all of us), if we both happen to be there at the same time. I think it was because we didn't divorce because we were mad at each other; we still care; but neither one of us was interested ultimately in a same-sex marriage.



> Also as an adult you have much more social mobility, which makes it easier to escape/avoid such situations (especially in a big country like the USA where it's normal for people to relocate to a totally different state  )


Oh totally. There are some things that are provinces of the states (like Driver's Licenses), but you can relocate fairly easily, all things considered; you're still a US citizen and that makes it far easier.



> Yea look at shows like Jerry Springer and Doctor Phil, the way they portrayed and used transsexuals for their viewer rates, how they treated them and how they turned into huge jokes was horrible. It makes you even wonder why those transsexuals ever even volunteered to be part of the show. And that was generally how the public saw transsexual people. (Mostly ugly) lying, cheating, bitching people, who would get in each other their hair, beat each other up on stage, show their post-up status ON STAGE (luckily blurred out), etc. No wonder most people (used to) associate transsexuals with marginality, prostitution, sluts, etc.


I'm going to guess they either got paid money for it (which they could use to further their progress), or just really wanted to be reaffirmed or something even if it was a negative experience in some ways. Donahue was actually the first show I remember, but the transwomen I saw then didn't really look female to me. It left me wondering what I would look like if I transitioned. Of course, then you watch Jerry Springer in the 90's and see Jahna Steele (rest in peace) and she's absolutely gorgeous and fits into society. So then you're like, "Well, maybe this could work after all." I think despite all the abuse for ratings, all the exploitation and everything else, the reality is that talk shows at that time provided the only real way to see real live transpeople... and then you realize you're not actually weird or uniquely alone. There are others out there like you, somewhere. It's a real thing. Eventually in the 2000's there started to be some legitimate coverage and human interest stories, so you didn't need the talk show craziness anymore.



> In the past people couldn't even get surgery in Europe, instead most people from Western Europe had to go to Casablanca in Morocco to get surgery (Dr. Georges Burou 1910-1987.


 Yeah, I think Jan Morris went there (1972?). I don't remember where Christine Jorgensen went.



> Talking about him I do want to note this to show what a good man he was: "In 1975 one patient addressed Burou, requesting his services, and received a prompt reply that detailed the cost of sex-reassignment surgery at U.S. $5000 “payable in cash upon arrival, if possible in travelers checks.” The price included “12 - 15 days hospitalization at the clinic, medical care and fees included, as well as the doctor’s payment.” This price is considered modest for the time based upon reports that indicated the average cost of sex-reassignment surgery was on the rise. Burou is said to have been willing to make “enormous” financial concessions to his fees whenever a case “merited the operation”. Reading this we might once again wonder why SRS most cost so much, since GID (Gender Identity Disorder) is a life threatening affliction and SRS (and FFS) are huge parts of treating this affliction, so why should it cost as much as it does the day of today?!), so yea things have improved a lot (although most European surgeons still aren't trusted and most people will go to Thailand or the USA for their surgery, and based on pictures I've seen I don't blame them)


Some doctors jack up their prices, some try to keep theirs affordable because they care. Chett (Bangkok) was charging $12K and he's considered a top-notch surgeon, and there are a few others there (Suporn for example) but who might charge more; here in the states, you are looking at $18-20K for the same op for a top surgeon, maybe a little higher, and one of the best is Meltzer who charges around $28-32K... but also has his own care facility and provides top-notch aftercare, compared to some of the others where you're basically in a hospital for 3-4 days and then dumped into a bed and breakfast for aftercare. I guess Brassard and Menard (in Canada) are similarly priced.

For FFS, you're talking anywhere from $8K for a nose job to $20K for "generally all around the face" treatment to $40K or more for forehead bone reduction (where they can remove the bone in the front of your skull to shape it and then put it back). it can be pretty expensive. The doctors are quite top-notch but not cheap. Brazil actually is doing some of this work more cheaply nowadays. Fat redistribution is another big thing now.

But yes, no one from here travels to Europe for M2F surgery anymore. You either stay in the US or you go to Thailand typically. F2M is a different matter, I forget which country but it's somewhere either in Europe or middle East where the specialists are. The worst is simply the cost, because insurance companies would refuse here to cover the treatments... and it's all basically a cultural-religious objection. (I mean, really -- here in the USA we're still arguing about whether companies can be required to pay for female birth control pills even if being used for other reasons.)


----------



## AesSidhe

Jennywocky said:


> Oh gosh, if only... lol. That's actually the makeup artist -- she does some pretty amazing stuff with makeup. But I like the mix of humor and macabre. She's pretty stunning even without any makeup on, from what I've seen in other pics.
> 
> my most recent pic is on my profile page, I took a few over the weekend and put the quirky one up.


To be totally honest, I actually thought it was you, with a blond extension or something. I can totally place your avatar and your profile picture besides each other and see many similarities: The nose, the eyes, the jawline, the chin, what I can see of the lips, etc . Another part of me thought she maybe was your daughter, until I saw the family picture 



Jennywocky said:


> Yeah, we were both evangelical Christians in our beliefs, although I wasn't comfortable with a lot of how it was practiced and kept reexamining my views, realizing eventually I believed something else. Meanwhile, the trans thing loomed over our whole marriage, and since my spouse had a pretty defined view of roles for men and women, we just could not come to a reconciliation. We kept trying to work it out for years and years, both of us pretty miserable, and eventually when I decided that transition was a necessity for me, my ex didn't want to live together anymore, so we separated. The divorce happened once I got surgery and it was clear I wasn't going to change my mind and "go back." Still, the kids were never really put in the middle, which was really good, and the "family" is still there even if we are not married any longer. We still share a meal together (all of us), if we both happen to be there at the same time. I think it was because we didn't divorce because we were mad at each other; we still care; but neither one of us was interested ultimately in a same-sex marriage.


WAW sounds like your story is the type of story the World would love to hear and which depicts transsexual people and their story in a positive light. Thank you for sharing with us 



Jennywocky said:


> I'm going to guess they either got paid money for it (which they could use to further their progress), or just really wanted to be reaffirmed or something even if it was a negative experience in some ways. Donahue was actually the first show I remember, but the transwomen I saw then didn't really look female to me. It left me wondering what I would look like if I transitioned. Of course, then you watch Jerry Springer in the 90's and see Jahna Steele (rest in peace) and she's absolutely gorgeous and fits into society. So then you're like, "Well, maybe this could work after all." I think despite all the abuse for ratings, all the exploitation and everything else, the reality is that talk shows at that time provided the only real way to see real live transpeople... and then you realize you're not actually weird or uniquely alone. There are others out there like you, somewhere. It's a real thing. Eventually in the 2000's there started to be some legitimate coverage and human interest stories, so you didn't need the talk show craziness anymore.


Yea, it's a well known fact that they were paid for it and that several of the Trans episodes were staged. yea 15-20 years ago the exposure of transsexual people was horrible. They only showed old(er) people who weren't passable and who were living at the edge of society. It was extremely horrible to see these people, and they weren't something you wanted to identify with. In Europe things did change when Israeli representative Dana International won the Eurovision Song Festival in 1998 with her song: "Diva", after which suddenly they started making and showing lots of documentaries about transsexual people, but all of these documentaries showed adults, which had the effect that many kids didn't come out of the closet because they thought they had to be adult themselves. That's why these days the focus on documentaries with children and teens is much bigger and better. Of course it creates a new problem for the ones who come out of the closet at a later age, because society might blame and condemn them as not being 'real' transsexuals because they didn't come out of the closet at an early age like all those kids and teens. It's an awkward double problem that is being created, but I myself am really happy that the focus these days is mostly on kids and teens 



Jennywocky said:


> But yes, no one from here travels to Europe for M2F surgery anymore. You either stay in the US or you go to Thailand typically. F2M is a different matter, I forget which country but it's somewhere either in Europe or middle East where the specialists are. The worst is simply the cost, because insurance companies would refuse here to cover the treatments... and it's all basically a cultural-religious objection. (I mean, really -- here in the USA we're still arguing about whether companies can be required to pay for female birth control pills even if being used for other reasons.)


I heard the Belgian surgeon (who is a crappy MtF surgeon) is actually a very good FtM surgeon, people from all across the World come to him. Of course that's just something I heard, it's not something I can confirm, because I've never seen an FtM without their underwear DD


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## Flatlander

AesSidhe said:


> I was wondering: How do all of you feel about the hundreds and hundreds of people on Youtube sharing the same things over and over again. Do those videos help you or make you needlessly jealous? (since most Youtubers are beautiful/hot)


Was repetition your cup of tea in learning at school? It sure wasn't mine.

Basically what you're talking about is one of those reasons I don't browse youtube and watch people's videos. I don't need to see the same kind of progression or stories thousands of times to get the point. I support and am happy for people who get through transition, or decide not to transition, or anything in between, however you decide to live your life or be and express your gender, I just don't need to watch it all.


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## Playful Proxy

AesSidhe said:


> (although most European surgeons still aren't trusted and most people will go to Thailand or the USA for their surgery, and based on pictures I've seen I don't blame them)


Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Brassard European? Of all those I know who are postop I swear, 80% of them went to him and he's in like France, I think? Most of which flew there from the US. The two top dogs in it I've heard were McGuinn in the US, and Brassard in Europe (somewhere).


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## AesSidhe

Playful Proxy said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Brassard European? Of all those I know who are postop I swear, 80% of them went to him and he's in like France, I think? Most of which flew there from the US. The two top dogs in it I've heard were McGuinn in the US, and Brassard in Europe (somewhere).


Brassard is Canadian :wink:

Also those statics seem to miss Doctor Suporn, who operates 1 person every day and gynecologists often don't even notice that someone is Trans down there afterwards :tongue:

Edit: FRENCH Canadian :wink:


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## Playful Proxy

AesSidhe said:


> Brassard is Canadian :wink:
> 
> Also those statics seem to miss Doctor Suporn, who operates 1 person every day and gynecologists often don't even notice that someone is Trans down there afterwards :tongue:
> 
> Edit: FRENCH Canadian :wink:


Ooooh, a French Canadian. That makes it so much better. xD
Also, transition videos (this is going to sound horrible, please don't kill me) either provoke 2 effects in me: 

a) That's uhh....not what I want.  They still look crossdresseresque, I mean, I'm glad they're happy with themselves, but....I don't want to look like that. 

b) Yeah...there is no way I could ever get there. They barely looked male before hormones and my facial bone structure is horrid. Yuuuup, I'm screwed. Fuck. It. All. 

Is it terrible? Probably.


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## AesSidhe

@Playful Proxy What does the A and B apply to here? I can't follow the reply xDDD


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## Playful Proxy

AesSidhe said:


> @_Playful Proxy_ What does the A and B apply to here? I can't follow the reply xDDD


When looking at Youtube transition videos lol.


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## AesSidhe

Playful Proxy said:


> When looking at Youtube transition videos lol.


Do ugly youtubers actually exist? I thought the ones making videos were the 1% most beautiful


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## Playful Proxy

AesSidhe said:


> Do ugly youtubers actually exist? I thought the ones making videos were the 1% most beautiful


Some pass better than others. There's a difference between passing and beauty.


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## AesSidhe

Playful Proxy said:


> Some pass better than others. There's a difference between passing and beauty.


And there are also those people who are like OVER THE TOP, of who you end up wondering: "Are you enforcing bad stereotypes or ...?" (for example Gigi Gorgeous. Seriously her over the top FFS, voice and behavior gives me a sour taste in my mouth xDDD)

(Please no one shoot me for that opinion xDD)


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## Playful Proxy

AesSidhe said:


> And there are also those people who are like OVER THE TOP, of who you end up wondering: "Are you enforcing bad stereotypes or ...?" (for example Gigi Gorgeous. Seriously her over the top FFS, voice and behavior gives me a sour taste in my mouth xDDD)
> 
> (Please no one shoot me for that opinion xDD)


IM NOT THE ONLY ONE?! Gigi reminds me of like...valley girlx5000 and valley girl already bugs me. i'm like yeah, be you but that's just obnoxious lol.


----------



## Strayfire

Playful Proxy said:


> Ooooh, a French Canadian. That makes it so much better. xD
> Also, transition videos (this is going to sound horrible, please don't kill me) either provoke 2 effects in me:
> 
> a) That's uhh....not what I want.  They still look crossdresseresque, I mean, I'm glad they're happy with themselves, but....I don't want to look like that.
> 
> b) Yeah...there is no way I could ever get there. They barely looked male before hormones and my facial bone structure is horrid. Yuuuup, I'm screwed. Fuck. It. All.
> 
> Is it terrible? Probably.


Sometimes I wish it was as simple and effective as going back into character select. 

Honestly I am terrified of looking like a crossdresser. For me it's all or nothing. 

I want to just look like a cis girl and I don't believe I can pull that off. 

There's no certainty for me in transition videos. 

That scares me.



AesSidhe said:


> And there are also those people who are like OVER THE TOP, of who you end up wondering: "Are you enforcing bad stereotypes or ...?" (for example Gigi Gorgeous. Seriously her over the top FFS, voice and behavior gives me a sour taste in my mouth xDDD)
> 
> (Please no one shoot me for that opinion xDD)


Apart from grating my ears, I've hated people who go over the top in general, cis or trans. 

Sometimes you can see grandmas with dyed hair, extensive makeup, plastic nails and an outfit designed for teens.

*shudders*

With light makeup or no makeup you could look so cute and adorable. >.>


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## Playful Proxy

Stray Venus said:


> Sometimes I wish it was as simple and effective as going back into character select.
> 
> Honestly I am terrified of looking like a crossdresser. For me it's all or nothing.
> 
> I want to just look like a cis girl and I don't believe I can pull that off.
> 
> There's no certainty for me in transition videos.
> 
> That scares me.


Yeah, I think transition becomes worth it when you can conclude that even if you don't pass, you'd be happier than you are now. Like...no, I'm not happy with where I'm at yet. I want to pass but...I go to college, I have a boyfriend, I have friends, and pretty much everyone in my college calls me she, her, and my preferred name without question and it's expected that I wear fem clothing. So I'm not quite happy with where I'm at but like...compared to a year ago? I am in suuuuuuuuuch a better place emotionally and mentally (says the girl who just months ago, was in a park alone, at night, and looking up at a tree preparing to hang themselves).


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## Strayfire

Playful Proxy said:


> Yeah, I think transition becomes worth it when you can conclude that even if you don't pass, you'd be happier than you are now. Like...no, I'm not happy with where I'm at yet. I want to pass but...I go to college, I have a boyfriend, I have friends, and pretty much everyone in my college calls me she, her, and my preferred name without question and it's expected that I wear fem clothing. So I'm not quite happy with where I'm at but like...compared to a year ago? I am in suuuuuuuuuch a better place emotionally and mentally (says the girl who just months ago, was in a park alone, at night, and looking up at a tree preparing to hang themselves).


I don't think that's such a good idea. 

My friendship circle isn't quite the best place to be trans. 

I know from experience most of my high school friends will be less than accepting because of the way they treated a MtF in highschool. 

One of my few remaining Christian friends has expressed... questionable views to me. 

Oh and my parents would probably disown me. 

The only people who would understand would likely be my friends at university. 

I'd rather suck it up.

Edit: Though I plan to meet up with @Hotaru at some point and go clothes shopping and clothes twirling where said prying eyes can't see.


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## AesSidhe

Playful Proxy said:


> I have a boyfriend


Didn't I read somewhere that you had a girlfriend that stayed with you when you came out of the closet?



Playful Proxy said:


> says the girl who just months ago, was in a park alone, at night, and looking up at a tree preparing to hang themselves


Please, next time contact a helpline or if you want contact me: I will do everything in my power to talk you out of it and help you see the light and find hope, even if it'll take +20 hours of talking in a row.



Stray Venus said:


> I want to just look like a cis girl and I don't believe I can pull that off.


Everyone wants that, and most people actually do become this. And even though some might not end up as generic cis girls, they will still look like cis girls, because not every cis girl is picture perfect (those are actually a minimum elite, and even those are Photoshopped)


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## Playful Proxy

Stray Venus said:


> I don't think that's such a good idea.
> 
> My friendship circle isn't quite the best place to be trans.
> 
> I know from experience most of my high school friends will be less than accepting because of the way they treated a MtF in highschool.
> 
> One of my few remaining Christian friends has expressed... questionable views to me.
> 
> Oh and my parents would probably disown me.
> 
> The only people who would understand would likely be my friends at university.
> 
> *I'd rather suck it up.
> *


Whichever you choose haha. I lost most of my friends in transition, I mean, I think I kept...4 solidly. All the others? I gained 3 weeks ago waltzing onto the college campus as me, they'd never known old me, all they knew was me, me. I made new friends, who weren't conservative dorkbags, and I love them and have more in common with them than any of my old ones anyway. Not going to lie, transition's hell. But...I consider it a temporary hell to get out of a permanent one I'd have been in doing nothing.



AesSidhe said:


> Didn't I read somewhere that you had a girlfriend that stayed with you when you came out of the closet?


Yuppers. We were together almost 2 years but broke up about 6 months ago. Long story short, we are better best friends than an actual romantic couple. I'm the one who kinda led, but it was mutual in terms of our feelings towards it. We still talk and occasionally spend time together, we just feel it best to search for romantic attention elsewhere.


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## AesSidhe

@Playful Proxy: Waw you're in the middle of transition and still have more luck dating than me 

(I know, I know, that's my own fault, I could have gotten married several times if I wanted to, 2s even with very rich (older) men, I always said no, I value my freedom quite highly xDDD)


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## Playful Proxy

AesSidhe said:


> Please, next time contact a helpline or if you want contact me: I will do everything in my power to talk you out of it and help you see the light and find hope, even if it'll take +20 hours of talking in a row.


I WOULD Have included this in my prev post but you liked it and would miss it (it should be known any post I make has a 5 minute hangover period in which I WILL edit it as many times as I feel fit). As for this topic...ehhh, when I was in that state, I wanted to die lol. Hotlines mean you don't really want it. You want a way out. When I was that far down, any action that could have gotten in my way (telling someone with the power to have me sent off somewhere) was something I was looking to avoid. If I was going to completely make up my mind, I wanted to succeed.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

To get in on the dating convo-

I've been pleasantly surprised that my hookup options (with males or females) haven't seemed to decrease since going androgynous. As far as I can tell the only group that has yet to find me appealing are straight women. I've gotten interest from straight/bi/gay males and bi/gay females and various other gender-variant people. 

But that's hookup options. Serious relationships is a bit different. I have really worried that by being myself it makes me too strange for anyone to be with. First off is finding someone who accepts "agender" as an identity. Second is someone who is ok with my presentation varying (i.e. do you care that your partner sometimes looks looks like a dude or sometimes rocks the cleavage). Third is someone who is cool with my sexual identity (bi/pan hate is a thing). Fourth is someone who is ok with polyamoury. Fifth is someone who is down with my sexual kinks. All of these things are things I don't feel I can compromise on, but altogether it makes me very far out of the ballpark of the norm I assume most people are looking for.

And that's before we even get into the normal relationship basics of "do we like eachother's personality" lol

So yeah, I feel like I'm pretty much set up for failure just by being unacceptable on so many fronts.


----------



## jeb

lolthevoidlol said:


> And that's before we even get into the normal relationship basics of "do we like eachother's personality" lol


This is the part that is so discouraging. All of these things to get through - its like bringing drama to a relationship before it's even a relationship and kind of forces it to be deeper than it is faster than it should be which also ruins things for both parties.

No one should have to compromise on who we are or what type of relationship we're looking for. It goes both ways, and although the majority of people have it a lot easier than we do, everyone has issues. I just hope one day that the patience pays off and that when it does I'm not too jaded to recognize it. I can't empathize with your specific situation, but at least you have the advantage of your age and those things being less obscure than if you were older.


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## jeb

Anyone see this story about a trans reporter for inside edition? Apparently she was a pilot and reporter before transitioning and still reports for the same show. They just did a special on her as an episode of the show.

http://www.advocate.com/politics/media/2015/02/03/meet-inside-editions-first-trans-reporter


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## Jennywocky

jeb said:


> Anyone see this story about a trans reporter for inside edition? Apparently she was a pilot and reporter before transitioning and still reports for the same show. They just did a special on her as an episode of the show.
> 
> Meet Inside Edition's First Trans Reporter | Advocate.com


Yeah, I read about Zoey way back in the beginning of her transition. She was actually a pretty well known news pilot and did some pretty influential stuff -- she apparently built and designed one of the first modern news copters, for example. Also did air coverage of the LA Riots and was the first person chasing that Bronco of OJ's down the highway. And she even did some piloting where she saved a number of people's lives. Pretty crazy-cool.


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## jeb

Jennywocky said:


> Yeah, I read about Zoey way back in the beginning of her transition. She was actually a pretty well known news pilot and did some pretty influential stuff -- she apparently built and designed one of the first modern news copters, for example. Also did air coverage of the LA Riots and was the first person chasing that Bronco of OJ's down the highway. And she even did some piloting where she saved a number of people's lives. Pretty crazy-cool.


What an amazing life. And she seems to have such a great attitude.


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## Playful Proxy

How did anyone else get over the whole feeling of not wanting to go in public because you 'weren't far enough along' or didn't know enough or felt you looked ridiculous? I KNOW I don't pass, but at this point, dressing male here isn't an option as I started this way so I have to maintain, but I feel like I'm entirely butchering it and while people seem to act nice and accepting and don't care, the anxiety in all this has me occasionally spending bouts of locking myself in my room and staying there for days.


----------



## Flatlander

*Trans People*



Playful Proxy said:


> How did anyone else get over the whole feeling of not wanting to go in public because you 'weren't far enough along' or didn't know enough or felt you looked ridiculous? I KNOW I don't pass, but at this point, dressing male here isn't an option as I started this way so I have to maintain, but I feel like I'm entirely butchering it and while people seem to act nice and accepting and don't care, the anxiety in all this has me occasionally spending bouts of locking myself in my room and staying there for days.


You can try going to places it's more accepted and ease into being out more generally, or you can be chest out and do it wherever you're gonna go. People may hate but what do they know? They don't know *you*.

Besides which, you may pass better than you think. People often aren't really thinking about it. I have a transwoman friend and I invited her home - she met my roommates, both of which are male and traditionally masculine in different ways. She doesn't think she passes, but neither of them even questioned her gender. Probably helps that she's been on hormones for awhile but eh.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Playful Proxy

Flatlander said:


> You can try going to places it's more accepted and ease into being out more generally, or you can be chest out and do it wherever you're gonna go. People may hate but what do they know? They don't know *you*.
> 
> Besides which, you may pass better than you think. People often aren't really thinking about it. I have a transwoman friend and I invited her home - she met my roommates, both of which are male and traditionally masculine in different ways. She doesn't think she passes, but neither of them even questioned her gender. Probably helps that she's been on hormones for awhile but eh.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh no, I've been on hormones for about 11 months now and about a month ago I came to university and day one was presenting as female. I know I don't pass since a few people will 'he' me or someone will ask if I'm male or female but the area IS accepting. The thing is just that I know I look rediculous and while people are understanding, I still hate making an utter fool of myself as I take time to figure out makeup, hair, and how to appropriately dress when my body isn't in the best shape (5'11, 139lbs, I'm a walking stick so curves isn't really a thing).


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## jeb

Playful Proxy said:


> Oh no, I've been on hormones for about 11 months now and about a month ago I came to university and day one was presenting as female. I know I don't pass since a few people will 'he' me or someone will ask if I'm male or female but the area IS accepting. The thing is just that I know I look rediculous and while people are understanding, I still hate making an utter fool of myself as I take time to figure out makeup, hair, and how to appropriately dress when my body isn't in the best shape (5'11, 139lbs, I'm a walking stick so curves isn't really a thing).


People will always "he" anyone who is tall, even if they're a D cup. I wouldn't worry about it. As long as you're confident it will get easier as you learn more.


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## Playful Proxy

jeb said:


> People will always "he" anyone who is tall, even if they're a D cup. I wouldn't worry about it. As long as you're confident it will get easier as you learn more.


Nooope, I had to legitimately pull two of those guys in my group aside and ask they use different pronouns. >.< It's pretty obvious lol.


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## Flatlander

Playful Proxy said:


> Oh no, I've been on hormones for about 11 months now and about a month ago I came to university and day one was presenting as female. I know I don't pass since a few people will 'he' me or someone will ask if I'm male or female but the area IS accepting. The thing is just that I know I look rediculous and while people are understanding, I still hate making an utter fool of myself as I take time to figure out makeup, hair, and how to appropriately dress when my body isn't in the best shape (5'11, 139lbs, I'm a walking stick so curves isn't really a thing).


I guess it would feel like makeup and such is the thing. If you are really worried about that end of things, perhaps it'd be worth it to consult a beautician or at least get the advice of a friend?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jennywocky

Playful Proxy said:


> How did anyone else get over the whole feeling of not wanting to go in public because you 'weren't far enough along' or didn't know enough or felt you looked ridiculous?


Well, about two months after I was on hormones, I started taking pictures and showing them to a lot of different online friends. I was basically 'testing the waters' before going out.

I went out with the local trans group about 4-5 months after starting hormones (test run, in a big crowd), where we'd go out to eat and walk around town and then to some clubs... so I had a very positive experience there. I *felt* like I could do okay, but I wasn't sure, and the next outing I did something crazy -- I met two friends at one of the largest public malls in Baltimore. I wanted to puke the whole time, and it turns out the mall was full of teenage girls and their moms so the "bathroom test" was godawful: I was in a mob of women trying to go inside, taller than 90% of them, and I know I got read (I could see a mom or two looking at me) and I just wanted to crawl under a rock. It can be emotionally rough. 

Anyway, over that summer during the week after work, I'd change and then go out alone by myself to the local malls (which weren't busy during the week) or on routine shopping trips (drugstores, groceries). I'd be so nervous, I'd cry in the car for a few minutes when I got there; then I'd just go inside. And after a number of positive experiences where nothing bad happened, I began to feel much more casual about it and not as scared. Still, I remember wanting to walk down to the river to watch the fireworks on July 4th that year, and it was dusk so no one would have even looked at me ... but I was so anxious I just stood in my doorway and watched the lights from my apartment, feeling horrible over my lack of confidence, like I should have been braver...

Some people don't have that problem. Others do. I did. It took prolonged trips (preferably low-key ones) into public until I was no longer flustered. Nowadays I think I still get occasionally read, but I just don't give a crap ultimately. I also perfected the ability of looking indifferent even when I was scared to death. If you look nonchalant/casual about it, like you're not "up to something" and this is you (take it or leave it), this goes a long way towards people just shrugging too and moving on. Basically, acting like you belong and have done this your whole life helps. ("Fake it til you make it" works.)



> I KNOW I don't pass, but at this point, dressing male here isn't an option as I started this way so I have to maintain, but I feel like I'm entirely butchering it and while people seem to act nice and accepting and don't care, the anxiety in all this has me occasionally spending bouts of locking myself in my room and staying there for days.


If they don't react, then you're okay. I think in general we might just be afraid of being read because we're afraid of a response; if they aren't giving you a negative response, though, then technically there is no problem. But I think the desire to feel accepted as oneself is big enough to still cause anxiety. But I know what you mean; that first summer especially for me, I felt so terrible because of all the times I wanted to go out and just ended up sitting at home. There's no way through but to just do it, and keeping a crew of 'safe people' around you if they know and are supportive. 

For M2Fs, if you've got a few female friends to run around with, well, for me that made it easier; it's like if you're in a group and already "vetted" by that group, other groups don't really look at you. But if you're alone, you might get more looks. How I think of it is that if people read me, they might have doubts about who I am and what I'm doing (if they have no experience with trans folks); but depending on who I'm with, that will remove some of those worse possibilities they might be thinking of.


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## Playful Proxy

Jennywocky said:


> Some people don't have that problem. Others do. I did. It took prolonged trips (preferably low-key ones) into public until I was no longer flustered. Nowadays I think I still get occasionally read, but I just don't give a crap ultimately. I also perfected the ability of looking indifferent even when I was scared to death. If you look nonchalant/casual about it, like you're not "up to something" and this is you (take it or leave it), this goes a long way towards people just shrugging too and moving on. Basically, acting like you belong and have done this your whole life helps. ("Fake it til you make it" works.)


I feel like I'm pretty good at this already. I kinda put this mask on when I go out into public in which I am outgoing, friendly, get along with people, and act like nothing bothers me. It's how I've made casual friends, but the key word is casual. I can go eat with them, talk with them, or text them occasionally, but it's nothing really close. The thing is that no one really makes a big deal out of it whenever I go out, but I ALWAYS feel incredible amounts of anxiety whenever I do and feel better after I've been out a little while but the amount I have to push myself to just do it over worrying about my hair, how i look, everything, is just overwhelming. In fact, I felt BETTER just taking a deep breath and saying "Look, you're not going to pass, stop worrying so hard on makeup, hair, and voice, and gradually improve them, but you don't pass, suck it up and just go do your thing and stop trying to nitpick in the hopes you will"

I mean, I do get a funny look every now and then from others, my friends say people would ask them behind my back if I'm a boy or a girl, that kinda thing. I use somewhat of an androgynous name and I'm told it doesn't really help me but my perspective is that I a) like that name and b) if I don't pass because of my name, that means my voice/appearance is not yet up to par and I need to keep striving for that, not changing my name. 


Jennywocky said:


> If they don't react, then you're okay. I think in general we might just be afraid of being read because we're afraid of a response; if they aren't giving you a negative response, though, then technically there is no problem. But I think the desire to feel accepted as oneself is big enough to still cause anxiety. But I know what you mean; that first summer especially for me, I felt so terrible because of all the times I wanted to go out and just ended up sitting at home. There's no way through but to just do it, and keeping a crew of 'safe people' around you if they know and are supportive.
> 
> For M2Fs, if you've got a few female friends to run around with, well, for me that made it easier; it's like if you're in a group and already "vetted" by that group, other groups don't really look at you. But if you're alone, you might get more looks. How I think of it is that if people read me, they might have doubts about who I am and what I'm doing (if they have no experience with trans folks); but depending on who I'm with, that will remove some of those worse possibilities they might be thinking of.


I know I'm being read, or at the very least, it's often less of a being read and more of a "Is that really a girl? Not sure" type thing, I have had a couple people 'he' me from classes after they spent some more time and didn't really get that I was trans until I told them so I have a general idea of where I stand. I don't know, I know it could be much, much worse, but I still feel drained from it all and just wish I could just be me and not have to worry about it. Still so much to do and learn and I so badly want to be done.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Choice said:


> ‘Ordinary bloke’ prepares for hysterectomy after doctors discover womb during bladder cancer test | National Post
> 
> "Well, sir... The good news is that you don't have bladder cancer. The bad news is that you need a hysterectomy "
> 
> 37 years, took em long enough.


There are only two sexes and individuals of each sex always have the exact same characteristics! :dry: :tongue:


----------



## FourLeafCloafer

lolthevoidlol said:


> There are only two sexes and each sex always has the exact same characteristics! :dry: :tongue:


He could reproduce with himself... that's weird and awesome at the same time. Major inbreeding though.


----------



## PurpleAmy

lolthevoidlol said:


> I have really worried that by being myself it makes me too strange for anyone to be with. First off is finding someone who accepts "agender" as an identity. Second is someone who is ok with my presentation varying (i.e. do you care that your partner sometimes looks looks like a dude or sometimes rocks the cleavage). Third is someone who is cool with my sexual identity (bi/pan hate is a thing). Fourth is someone who is ok with polyamoury. Fifth is someone who is down with my sexual kinks. All of these things are things I don't feel I can compromise on, but altogether it makes me very far out of the ballpark of the norm I assume most people are looking for.


Well, if it helps, the first four would be entirely cool by me, the last I unfortunately can't handle. But on the upside, that last is a minority position in many of those circles, so there's hope for you! :happy:


----------



## Amphoteric

I met a friend's wife a few days ago when I was walking through campus (my friend being the coordinator of the local trans group), and she told me at the last meeting that her wife asked how she knew me, guessing that I worked in the same department on campus, or that I was a friend of a friend. When she was told that I attend group meetings, she guessed that I came along with my girlfriend who was "questioning." lol. After telling her that I'm trans, she was apparently in disbelief.

I know I pass, but hearing that was such a confidence booster. Along with the couple of times when people have assumed (in context of trans-spaces) I'm a pre-everything trans girl. Bless thy masculine features. (And on another note, I'm 8 months on T tomorrow!)


----------



## Death Persuades

stultum said:


> He could reproduce with himself... that's weird and awesome at the same time. Major inbreeding though.


The issues that arise from inbreeding disappear in asexual reproduction, because you are basically making a copy of your own genes. So, if you're not defective, your offspring will most likely not be defective either.


----------



## Metaplanar

Definitely Phemale said:


> The issues that arise from inbreeding disappear in asexual reproduction, because you are basically making a copy of your own genes. So, if you're not defective, your offspring will most likely not be defective either.


But in this case, the option would only have been sexual reproduction with himself - combining a sperm and an egg from the same person. Which makes it likely that the child ends up with the same version of a gene twice without a second, different, version, to cancel out possible defects. Which, again, is exactly the danger in inbreeding.


----------



## FourLeafCloafer

Definitely Phemale said:


> The issues that arise from inbreeding disappear in asexual reproduction, because you are basically making a copy of your own genes. So, if you're not defective, your offspring will most likely not be defective either.


This isn't asexual reproduction. He is combining a sperm cell and an oocyte of the same individual into a new diploid individual, with much less heterozygoty. Since we all carry rare, recessive, deadly and detrimental genes in the heterozygote when he finally succeeds in getting offspring that doesn't die prematurely, it will almost certainly be severely handicapped. Now, if he would clone himself, he would be fine, but he doesn't.


----------



## Flatlander

Playful Proxy said:


> While my boss himself doesn't care, I work in the IT dept of a construction company. As you can guess, construction companies have a lot of....rough and tough guys who don't exactly take a liking to anything that even remotely smells of liberalism, and think gay is the spawn of Satan himself. My boss himself was like "Well, I don't mind but uhh, this is like the WORST industry to do it in."


Makes sense. I'd agree, putting it off keeps you sane in that environment. But I'd also wonder why you stay.



> Ummm, maybe, I've considered it but I feel a lot of my problem mostly stems from the fact that I tend to not eat...a lot. It was one of those self-harm things I kinda got into in the beginning of transition as I figured it was one of the more harmless ways of inflicting pain and uhh, it got a bit too easy to do. Positive: Dieting is a piece of cake. Negatives: I need to do the opposite of a diet.


You need a diet that better suits your needs.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Flatlander said:


> Makes sense. I'd agree, putting it off keeps you sane in that environment. But I'd also wonder why you stay.


Pays for college and transition, good work experience. No even remote lead on somewhere else. Decent pay and really flexible with my schedule. 



Flatlander said:


> You need a diet that better suits your needs.


Well, I've improved from 8 meals a week, 7 of which being fast-food lunches, to like...12-14ish? I pretty much never eat breakfast except for very rarely, eat lunch usually, and dinner is like a half and half but I'm trying to improve.


----------



## Strayfire

Flatlander said:


> Do you have a really quick metabolism? Might seek some way to slow it?


Hehehe, my metabolism is lightspeed. I ate 3-4 meals a day while in New York with dinner consisting of 10pcs. of KFC grilled per day and 3 pounds of watermelon, rockmelon (cantaloupe) and honey dew. Still managed to lose some weight while semi-regularly going to the gym. 



Playful Proxy said:


> Ummm, maybe, I've considered it but I feel a lot of my problem mostly stems from the fact that I tend to not eat...a lot. It was one of those self-harm things I kinda got into in the beginning of transition as I figured it was one of the more harmless ways of inflicting pain and uhh, it got a bit too easy to do. Positive: Dieting is a piece of cake. Negatives: I need to do the opposite of a diet.


Ever since I started university I've been skipping meals like you. 

Uggghhhh. Food... bother... lazy... hate body... grrr...



Playful Proxy said:


> Well, I've improved from 8 meals a week, 7 of which being fast-food lunches, to like...12-14ish? I pretty much never eat breakfast except for very rarely, eat lunch usually, and dinner is like a half and half but I'm trying to improve. My diet pretty much consists of Taco Bell, sub sandwhiches, chicken, Mountain Dew, coffee, Yoohoos, and chocolate. When in doubt, coffee or mountain dew probably stood in as a meal replacement.


I lost a lot of weight when I realised I could replace meals with tea. 

So much tea... chocolate is another hunger killer. 

>.>

I've gone from 173cm; 63kg in high school to 174cm and 57kg in university. :/


----------



## jeb

Playful Proxy said:


> While my boss himself doesn't care, I work in the IT dept of a construction company. As you can guess, construction companies have a lot of....rough and tough guys who don't exactly take a liking to anything that even remotely smells of liberalism, and think gay is the spawn of Satan himself. My boss himself was like "Well, I don't mind but uhh, this is like the WORST industry to do it in."


Agreed, probably the worst industry to be different in any way whatsoever. I work with a bunch of construction guys. No way I would have done that pre or mid transition.


----------



## starshipuk

How do you get the nerve to actually talk to someone in person about your gender identity? And when you do, how do you decide who to talk to? I have wanted to talk to someone for a while but I keep backing out for one reason or another.


----------



## AesSidhe

starshipuk said:


> How do you get the nerve to actually talk to someone in person about your gender identity? And when you do, how do you decide who to talk to? I have wanted to talk to someone for a while but I keep backing out for one reason or another.


When the pain/discomfort gets too bad?


----------



## Jennywocky

starshipuk said:


> How do you get the nerve to actually talk to someone in person about your gender identity? And when you do, how do you decide who to talk to? I have wanted to talk to someone for a while but I keep backing out for one reason or another.


The first few times (or even longer), it can be very terrifying because you don't know whether the relationship will last or how it will change things between the two of you. Also having others know makes it even more "'real" so to speak because now it doesn't just exist inside the confines of your own mind, others know of it as well.

My ex knew as much as I realized before we married, and knew everything as my understanding of myself grew. So that was not a secret.

As far as other people: I think I told my closest friends in my mid-20's. I only told my best friends who I thought might be able to accept it, and they all did stick with me regardless of their opinion of it. I probably had told 3-5 people IRL, increasing a bit over time to maybe 8-10 before I finally did transition. I told my kids when I realized it was going to happen (but before starting hormones); I did not tell my parents, sister, or other family until about the time my ex and I were going to separate and thus they knew something was up. I didn't trust my family (and was right not to, based on the outcome of that).

Anyway, how do you do it? I don't know. You pick people who you trust as much as you can, and know they won't tell everyone else. (Discrete people.) For me, also, being authentic was important; i wanted to be able to speak honestly with my friends and not wear a mask, because I cared about them; so that led me to decide to risk what we had for potentially more honesty in the relationship. It was still scary, and I blew it off a few times for the first ones.

But it's pretty much, "I'm dealing with something really hard and scary for me, it's been a situation for me for a long long time, and I also feel bad because I never told you despite our being close friends, and it hurts to hide it from you. So i want to share it with you, because I trust you. Is that okay?" Or something similar to that, I think. I remember presenting it as a sign of trust of them and wanting to keep our friendship, and so this meant my sharing this part of myself with them. That is how I looked at it, and it helped me carry through with it.

Still, again, I was very careful to first tell the people I really really trusted and who I knew to be discrete. Also people who I knew would fight for me and stand up for me, even if they would also be very honest with me about what they thought personally. These were people who I thought would have my back regardless. It's a hard journey when you feel very alone and have no one to talk to or defend you; it got a little easier to let the trusted ones in. 

(This also helped with transition later; these people understood me deeply at that point, and they were able to interact with people who had bad reactions to my transition and help "smooth things out" because if you have to do it all yourself, it will exhaust you. So you are setting things up maybe for later choices.)


----------



## Flatlander

starshipuk said:


> How do you get the nerve to actually talk to someone in person about your gender identity? And when you do, how do you decide who to talk to? I have wanted to talk to someone for a while but I keep backing out for one reason or another.


I decide based on who needs to know, or who seems like they are or would be receptive. Need to know is intimates, possibly family. Are or would be receptive is my friends. I typically don't become or stay good friends with people who wouldn't be.


----------



## Eos_Machai

I liked this film. It's directed by a transperson, is about a transperson and the main role is played by a transperson. 

Nånting måste gå sönder (2014) - IMDb


----------



## Playful Proxy

Dear Teamspeak: When I speak on you and people just automatically 'he/him' me...yeah, fuck everything. Supposedly my voice is fairly androgynous but it still sucks enough to get me he'd. Why does training it take so freaking long? No, there's no point in even correcting them, it's my fault, it's my lack of training, it's the fact that my body fucking sucks at being my body. Ugh. [/rant]

Sorry, figured it'd help if I just left that there.


----------



## Amphoteric

I've noticed an interesting correlation between trans women and computer science, particularly software engineering. Sophie Wilson, for one, and a few people I've come across while being in trans circles who are pretty involved in IT, and I know of two trans women majoring in computer science just from my group alone. Although more feelers, I find; some INTPs occasionally.

Meanwhile a lot of the trans men are geared towards arts and humanities, like a few history majors, some English, linguistics majors and so forth. Seems to be more extroverted feelers among trans men, as well as sensors (most I encounter are probably ISFJ/ISTJs). A lot of them seem more whiny than the women in the group, too, and I'm not sure why that is (if female socialization comes into that, or if trans men are just easily defeated). Every meeting I encounter some guy going on about how much he hates being overweight, or feels ugly, but clearly does nothing about it but sit on his ass and not exercise, and the cherry on top is how a few people mention I look like I've lost weight and my face has chiseled out more, like I'm supposed to feel guilty that I enjoy exercising and actually taking the initiative to improve my health rather than bitch about it consistently. Probably why I (even if subconsciously) stay distanced from the "community" itself.

Anyway, getting off track, I find the correlation between interests/majors, personality and gender interesting.


----------



## jeb

Amphoteric said:


> Anyway, getting off track, I find the correlation between interests/majors, personality and gender interesting.


Interesting observations. I don't fit into any of them, though.


----------



## Strayfire

jeb said:


> Interesting observations. I don't fit into any of them, though.


I know right (social science major).

At some point I'll see a therapist about potentially transitioning. 

Hmmm.


----------



## Flatlander

Playful Proxy said:


> Dear Teamspeak: When I speak on you and people just automatically 'he/him' me...yeah, fuck everything. Supposedly my voice is fairly androgynous but it still sucks enough to get me he'd. Why does training it take so freaking long? No, there's no point in even correcting them, it's my fault, it's my lack of training, it's the fact that my body fucking sucks at being my body. Ugh. [/rant]
> 
> Sorry, figured it'd help if I just left that there.


There's no 'fault' here, it just is what it is. 

Have you tried recording and listening back to see if your voice is altered in any way by the sound system? Odds are it's being distorted to a lower pitch.


----------



## Flatlander

Amphoteric said:


> I've noticed an interesting correlation between trans women and computer science, particularly software engineering. Sophie Wilson, for one, and a few people I've come across while being in trans circles who are pretty involved in IT, and I know of two trans women majoring in computer science just from my group alone. Although more feelers, I find; some INTPs occasionally.
> 
> Meanwhile a lot of the trans men are geared towards arts and humanities, like a few history majors, some English, linguistics majors and so forth. Seems to be more extroverted feelers among trans men, as well as sensors (most I encounter are probably ISFJ/ISTJs). A lot of them seem more whiny than the women in the group, too, and I'm not sure why that is (if female socialization comes into that, or if trans men are just easily defeated). Every meeting I encounter some guy going on about how much he hates being overweight, or feels ugly, but clearly does nothing about it but sit on his ass and not exercise, and the cherry on top is how a few people mention I look like I've lost weight and my face has chiseled out more, like I'm supposed to feel guilty that I enjoy exercising and actually taking the initiative to improve my health rather than bitch about it consistently. Probably why I (even if subconsciously) stay distanced from the "community" itself.
> 
> Anyway, getting off track, I find the correlation between interests/majors, personality and gender interesting.


I dunno how much majors in college, or the college years, really define a person. They might seem to at the time, but people can evolve significantly going forward from their late teens/early 20s. 

Also have you met only transpeople in your current area, and only transpeople going to meetings? People can differ by region, and it could be that mostly specific types of people end up at those meetings so you're missing out on other sections of the population. It does seem to be a trend that transwomen are often involved in IT, that's the one thing I'd pick out as potentially accurate (most of the ones I've known personally conform to it and I know quite a few transwomen from different areas) but I dunno.


----------



## Amphoteric

Flatlander said:


> I dunno how much majors in college, or the college years, really define a person. They might seem to at the time, but people can evolve significantly going forward from their late teens/early 20s.
> 
> Also have you met only transpeople in your current area, and only transpeople going to meetings? People can differ by region, and it could be that mostly specific types of people end up at those meetings so you're missing out on other sections of the population. It does seem to be a trend that transwomen are often involved in IT, that's the one thing I'd pick out as potentially accurate (most of the ones I've known personally conform to it and I know quite a few transwomen from different areas) but I dunno.


Of course, but most of these people I've observed are post-graduate. It's not really so much a means of what they choose to do in college, but rather where most of their interests/hobbies lie. 

I've lurked around quite a few forums geared towards trans people, but again, it's difficult to type people and assume if just based on a few posts here and there, although general consensus tells me there's a lot of software engineers who are trans women, and a lot of aspiring trans male authors; I don't fit into this narrative, or share any of those hobbies, either, but I just find what I've observed to be intriguing, not that it's supposed to be taken as a research study *shrug*


----------



## Playful Proxy

Flatlander said:


> There's no 'fault' here, it just is what it is.
> 
> Have you tried recording and listening back to see if your voice is altered in any way by the sound system? Odds are it's being distorted to a lower pitch.


Yeah, if I listen back with my handheld voice recorder or Skype, it sounds a lot more andro, but it just is more resonaty in that specific program but my guild uses that and if it makes my voice sound noticeably male, I don't see the point in fighting a losing battle and trying to correct people since they'll just say "uhhh you don't sound it".


----------



## Flatlander

Amphoteric said:


> Of course, but most of these people I've observed are post-graduate. It's not really so much a means of what they choose to do in college, but rather where most of their interests/hobbies lie.
> 
> I've lurked around quite a few forums geared towards trans people, but again, it's difficult to type people and assume if just based on a few posts here and there, although general consensus tells me there's a lot of software engineers who are trans women, and a lot of aspiring trans male authors; I don't fit into this narrative, or share any of those hobbies, either, but I just find what I've observed to be intriguing, not that it's supposed to be taken as a research study *shrug*


Ahh, forums. No lack of reasons I don't go to most.

(What about someone who is both an aspiring author and an IT geek? Ha.)


----------



## AesSidhe

You should take account of the fact that most transsexual women who hang out on Trans forums and go to Trans self help groups are often more of the introverted kind, also they're often the unsure ones, the ones that think (or are) they're ugly and not passable. Also if people think they're ugly and/or not passable they'll gravitate more towards jobs where they have a minimum amount of contact with other people, this way avoiding 'conflict' about the fact that they're transsexual, this is why you find so many in IT degrees and jobs. If a transsexual woman is more extroverted and more passable they often don't have a hard time at all meeting people and making friends, which avoids the situation where they have to go to forums and meetings, so this is a huge part of the Trans population you're missing, which often aren't IT people at all.

So what I think is that for introverted MtF transsexuals the internet and computer games, etc gave them a safe space to be themselves before they actually transitioned, which created the situation where they spend most of their time with computers and the internet, which might have triggered an interest for IT, as computers have some form of therapeutic value for them. In contract FtMs can use the tomboy concept most of their youth before actually transitioning and so don't need to flee to that same space MtFs have to flee to.


----------



## WamphyriThrall

Amphoteric said:


> I've noticed an interesting correlation between trans women and computer science, particularly software engineering. Sophie Wilson, for one, and a few people I've come across while being in trans circles who are pretty involved in IT, and I know of two trans women majoring in computer science just from my group alone. Although more feelers, I find; some INTPs occasionally.
> 
> Meanwhile a lot of the trans men are geared towards arts and humanities, like a few history majors, some English, linguistics majors and so forth. Seems to be more extroverted feelers among trans men, as well as sensors (most I encounter are probably ISFJ/ISTJs). A lot of them seem more whiny than the women in the group, too, and I'm not sure why that is (if female socialization comes into that, or if trans men are just easily defeated). Every meeting I encounter some guy going on about how much he hates being overweight, or feels ugly, but clearly does nothing about it but sit on his ass and not exercise, and the cherry on top is how a few people mention I look like I've lost weight and my face has chiseled out more, like I'm supposed to feel guilty that I enjoy exercising and actually taking the initiative to improve my health rather than bitch about it consistently. Probably why I (even if subconsciously) stay distanced from the "community" itself.
> 
> Anyway, getting off track, I find the correlation between interests/majors, personality and gender interesting.


I've noticed this, too (and am sure I've posted on it elsewhere). It could be due to biology, upbringing, or some combination of the two, but being trans probably helps shake off a lot of the stigma that they'd otherwise face when trying these things. Seriously, if you can handle being trans, you can handle being almost anything else! 

A lot of older trans women are former military, too, and from what one has told me, it's because a few will try to run away from their true selves, and try to fit into a masculine male ideal. Not that it's an issue - I'm all for folk breaking gender stereotypes! What you've said regarding the overweight trans guy is also something I've noticed, as well as something a former trans male member of PerC also pointed out. 

I've also noticed a few differences between, say, straight trans women and lesbian trans women, and they don't necessarily mirror the differences you see in the cis women population...


----------



## Lexicon Devil

Entropic said:


> Only works if your language settings are English, though.


Facebook is English based and there is nothing wrong with that. That's a good thing actually. People who speak another language should use or create another site like facebook.


----------



## FourLeafCloafer

Jeff Felis said:


> Facebook is English based and there is nothing wrong with that. That's a good thing actually. People who speak another language should use or create another site like facebook.


Why?


----------



## Lexicon Devil

stultum said:


> Why?


One common language greatly facilitates communication. Also, with Facebook being a private company, they can do anything they want.


----------



## FourLeafCloafer

Jeff Felis said:


> One common language greatly facilitates communication. Also, with Facebook being a private company, they can do anything they want.


I am fine with it only being available in English... 

But why would you need to be able to read all posts? German people post in German, Greek in Greek, French in French, Chinese in Chinese... what is it to you? The fun thing about facebook is it that you can be friends with people from all over the world, even if you can't understand all of their posts. I post posts that are for all of my friends in English. I post that that is only interesting to the Dutch in Dutch. I post what is specific for the Germans in German. If I want to talk to my Finnish friend, I speak English, as I don't speak Finnish.

If we all used different sites, it would be a hassle to communicate with all of them. I don't see how it would be better if we all had our own little sites.


----------



## Lexicon Devil

@stultum
Facebook can do whatever they want. If I were head of Facebook I would put gender options in multiple languages. Maybe that is the next step. You could contact Facebook and let then know of your concerns. There yea go.


----------



## FourLeafCloafer

Jeff Felis said:


> @stultum
> Facebook can do whatever they want. If I were head of Facebook I would put gender options in multiple languages. Maybe that is the next step. You could contact Facebook and let then know of your concerns. There yea go.


I am not saying that facebook should do anything. I was just reacting on your 'facebook is English, and non-English speaking people should use their own sites site' that I got from you saying:

_*Facebook is English based* and there is nothing wrong with that. *That's a good thing actually*. *People who speak another language should use or create another site* like facebook._

Which, frankly, I think is bollocks. As I tried to convey in the last few posts. I don't know how I could have been any clearer than by saying 
_I am fine with it only being available in English... _ With 'it' being 'gender options', obviously.


----------



## Lexicon Devil

@stultum
On my second post which you didn't quote, I changed my mind and said I would make gender options in multiple languages. Facebook already lets people post in any language it wants too. I'm fine whether they do so or not. 

So now I think we agree. I going to have a piece of chocolate now since you stressed me out. :tongue:


----------



## Amphoteric

I got my top surgery date for March 23. Strange to think in less than three weeks, I won't have to deal with wearing a binder or awful top dysphoria anymore. I was anticipating this taking years before I could reach it, between saving up money and actually having the time to spend on recovery. At least the cards were played in my favor this time around.

Also, I really want to donate my binders because I kept them in good condition and it would be pointless for me to throw out an article of clothing that someone could certainly use, especially if they live in a household ingrained with ignorance and are unable to get one on their own. Does anyone know of any sites specifically for binder donations?


----------



## hauntology

Amphoteric said:


> I got my top surgery date for March 23. Strange to think in less than three weeks, I won't have to deal with wearing a binder or awful top dysphoria anymore. I was anticipating this taking years before I could reach it, between saving up money and actually having the time to spend on recovery. At least the cards were played in my favor this time around.
> 
> Also, I really want to donate my binders because I kept them in good condition and it would be pointless for me to throw out an article of clothing that someone could certainly use, especially if they live in a household ingrained with ignorance and are unable to get one on their own. Does anyone know of any sites specifically for binder donations?


The Leelah Project is actually looking for binders right now!


----------



## jeb

Amphoteric said:


> Does anyone know of any sites specifically for binder donations?


There's always people looking on TQ Nation.


----------



## Amphoteric

HorrorHound said:


> The Leelah Project is actually looking for binders right now!





jeb said:


> There's always people looking on TQ Nation.


Cool, thanks. I also know about the In a Bind program too, so I'll probably donate one to each charity.


----------



## Strayfire

Military court: Army must not refer to WikiLeaks leaker Manning as a male | Ars Technica



> A military appeals court on Thursday ordered the government to refrain from referring to WikiLeaks leaker Pvt. Chelsea Manning as a male.
> 
> 
> Formerly known as Bradley Manning, the private was court-martialed last year and sentenced to 35 years for forwarding a cache of classified documents to WikiLeaks. After the August 2013 espionage conviction for leaking more than 700,000 documents and video, Manning announced that she would live as a woman with the name Chelsea going forward. She also appealed the conviction. A non-military judge approved the name change last year. Hormone therapy, which she is now getting, is assisting her transition. Manning has been diagnosed with gender dysphoria.
> 
> "Reference to appellant in all future formal papers filed before this court and all future orders and decisions issued by this court shall either be neutral, e.g., Private First Class Manning or appellant, or employ a feminine pronoun," the US Army Court of Criminal Appeals ruled Thursday.
> The military had opposed referring to Manning as a female in court documents. The government argued that "unless directed otherwise," it would continue "using masculine pronouns."
> Chase Strangio, an ACLU attorney for Manning, said the military tribunal is "dignifying Chelsea's womanhood."
> "This is an important development in Chelsea’s fight for adequate medical care for her gender dysphoria. That fight continues but at least the government can no longer attempt to erase Chelsea’s identity by referring to her as male in every legal filing," Strangio said.
> The "Free Chelsea Manning" network said Thursday that the military, which bans transgender people from serving, "is continuing to deny Chelsea’s request to grow her hair consistent with the standards for female prisoners."
> Manning, who is jailed in Kansas at Fort Leavenworth, now writes for the _Guardian_. In December, she wrote:
> The challenges that trans people are forced to navigate—even in accessing identification, but in so much more—are the result of institutional bias that favors cisgender people and assumes that trans people are deviant. When your own government’s policies send a message that you don’t exist—or that you shouldn’t—it’s devastating. Despite ample evidence that trans people have existed in most cultures throughout history, and the medical consensus that trans people can live healthy, productive lives, many governments continue to impose barriers on trans people that can make it almost impossible to survive.​ The private added that "a doctor, a judge or a piece of paper shouldn’t have the power to tell someone who he or she is. We should all have the absolute and inalienable right to define ourselves, in our own terms and in our own languages, and to be able to express our identity and perspectives without fear of consequences and retribution. We should all be able to live as human beings—and to be recognized as such by the societies we live in."


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## Playful Proxy

Dear hair: Why are you such a pain to learn to do? Styling is the devil, that is all. ;_;


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## Drewbie

Gender fluidity is the pits.


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## Playful Proxy

Just a warning, I don't know if this is all locations or just the one I went to, but Taco Bell apparently is starting a policy where they look at the name on your credit/debit card and use that to call out when your food is ready. The legal name on your card....announced to the entire restaurant and you have to walk up in shame. *middle finger*


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## PurpleAmy

@Playful Proxy, have you tried getting an "authorized user" card for your rightful name? http://www.tgboards.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=15762

Not defending the policy, but it might be a good hack for a lot of situations nonetheless.


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## Playful Proxy

PurpleAmy said:


> @_Playful Proxy_, have you tried getting an "authorized user" card for your rightful name? The Transgender Boards • View topic - Credit card question
> 
> Not defending the policy, but it might be a good hack for a lot of situations nonetheless.


I haven't and didn't even know that was possible. Thank you for that. I just assumed I was up a creek until I filed for my legal name change (which I'm holding off because I want my family to take part in it but they are taking a little longer than I'd like to come around).


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## Strayfire

Playful Proxy said:


> Just a warning, I don't know if this is all locations or just the one I went to, but Taco Bell apparently is starting a policy where they look at the name on your credit/debit card and use that to call out when your food is ready. The legal name on your card....announced to the entire restaurant and you have to walk up in shame. *middle finger*


I pay everything by cash <333

And order numbers are so much better :/


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## Jennywocky

Playful Proxy said:


> Just a warning, I don't know if this is all locations or just the one I went to, but Taco Bell apparently is starting a policy where they look at the name on your credit/debit card and use that to call out when your food is ready. The legal name on your card....announced to the entire restaurant and you have to walk up in shame. *middle finger*


That seems stupid (invasion of privacy) on their part, although maybe they think they are being friendly by using your actual name versus an order number. I think I read about one chain doing that as a 'customer friendliness" policy, although why they think I'd want someone calling out my name in a roomful of strangers is beyond me.

Whoever suggested that "authorized user" thing -- that's exactly what I did back in 2008 when I was starting to go out and wanted to make sure I had one good credit card I could use. I applied for a credit card and added my female name as an authorized user (to get a card with that name), then I used that card any time I went out. It was an easy workaround.


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## jeb

Playful Proxy said:


> Just a warning, I don't know if this is all locations or just the one I went to, but Taco Bell apparently is starting a policy where they look at the name on your credit/debit card and use that to call out when your food is ready. The legal name on your card....announced to the entire restaurant and you have to walk up in shame. *middle finger*


I had that happen at Baja Fresh last month. I thought it was friendly and personal, but I can see how it is presumptious in cases like this. 

Why do you want your family to be there in the courtroom? They're stuffy and it takes forever, parking is atrocious, and you have to sit through all these divorce and child custody cases and all these random people listening to everyones drama. Then theres dealing with the clerks before and after. Blegh!


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## jeb

Jennywocky said:


> Whoever suggested that "authorized user" thing -- that's exactly what I did back in 2008 when I was starting to go out and wanted to make sure I had one good credit card I could use. I applied for a credit card and added my female name as an authorized user (to get a card with that name), then I used that card any time I went out. It was an easy workaround.


Ah, thats a good idea. Handy indeed.

Did you ever run across any issues with the credit bureaus after the name change? Like - did they sync everything up for you without you having to track them down?


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## Playful Proxy

jeb said:


> I had that happen at Baja Fresh last month. I thought it was friendly and personal, but I can see how it is presumptious in cases like this.
> 
> Why do you want your family to be there in the courtroom? They're stuffy and it takes forever, parking is atrocious, and you have to sit through all these divorce and child custody cases and all these random people listening to everyones drama. Then theres dealing with the clerks before and after. Blegh!


It's not that I want them with me, I want my mom to help take part in some of it or at least feel included so it's not "I'm going this, I don't give 3 shits about you, and you just need to suck it up", I want her to help pick my middle name (as I have noooo idea on that) but she's saying she's coping and is taking forever.


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## Jennywocky

jeb said:


> Ah, thats a good idea. Handy indeed.
> 
> Did you ever run across any issues with the credit bureaus after the name change? Like - did they sync everything up for you without you having to track them down?


Note: I live in the US, so if someone lives outside the US they might have a different experience....

In terms of just getting your name changed: 


* *





When you go "legal," it's a bit of a headache or at least used to be...I never got hassled, but you just have to get a lot of stuff changed.

I compiled a huge long list of each name I had to get changed -- my DL, each credit card, each utility account, and whatever else that had my old name on it -- and then I just walked through my checklist and crossed each item off as I completed it. There were that many. And I added more items to the list if I ran across them but had forgotten in my first list.

Some places (usually the smaller ones) would just change my name. Medium and large places usually needed a copy of the court order. A few demanded an ORIGINAL of the order; usually these were for the DL and the really large credit card companies (like Chase Bank) and my actual banks with my bank accounts + probably your mortgage/car loan folks. I think the originals cost me $7 apiece. The day I got my name changed, I took it downstairs to the prothonotary and got 5-10 originals so that I'd have them in case someone demanded one.




As far as the credit bureaus go, they seemed to pick up my name change on their own. Of course they are keying off my SSN, not the name per se. I don't think I ever contacted a credit bureau.

I also have had fun Googling my name on all those address sites out there. They find whichever name I'm Googling, and then in "related people" they will often list my mom, dad, siblings, ex-spouse... and my old name, as if we were married or something.


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## jeb

Playful Proxy said:


> It's not that I want them with me, I want my mom to help take part in some of it or at least feel included so it's not "I'm going this, I don't give 3 shits about you, and you just need to suck it up", I want her to help pick my middle name (as I have noooo idea on that) but she's saying she's coping and is taking forever.


Ah, gotcha. That makes sense. My parents are still coping and my name has been changed for almost 2 years now. I never had the "I don't give 3 shits about you" mindset, but I certainly did have the "I'm not going to put my life on hold while you aren't doing anything to help yourself cope" mentality.  Not sure if they resent me for not including them. You might have a better relationship with your parents by letting them deal with their internal stuff first. 


Jennywocky said:


> Note: I live in the US, so if someone lives outside the US they might have a different experience....
> 
> In terms of just getting your name changed:
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you go "legal," it's a bit of a headache or at least used to be...I never got hassled, but you just have to get a lot of stuff changed.
> 
> I compiled a huge long list of each name I had to get changed -- my DL, each credit card, each utility account, and whatever else that had my old name on it -- and then I just walked through my checklist and crossed each item off as I completed it. There were that many. And I added more items to the list if I ran across them but had forgotten in my first list.
> 
> Some places (usually the smaller ones) would just change my name. Medium and large places usually needed a copy of the court order. A few demanded an ORIGINAL of the order; usually these were for the DL and the really large credit card companies (like Chase Bank) and my actual banks with my bank accounts + probably your mortgage/car loan folks. I think the originals cost me $7 apiece. The day I got my name changed, I took it downstairs to the prothonotary and got 5-10 originals so that I'd have them in case someone demanded one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as the credit bureaus go, they seemed to pick up my name change on their own. Of course they are keying off my SSN, not the name per se. I don't think I ever contacted a credit bureau.
> 
> I also have had fun Googling my name on all those address sites out there. They find whichever name I'm Googling, and then in "related people" they will often list my mom, dad, siblings, ex-spouse... and my old name, as if we were married or something.


Ah, alright. Well I'm glad that the credit bureau crap didn't happen to everyone, it was a real mess for me. Took months before I could even find contact information for them that wasn't just an automated message service. Can't rent an apartment, get a phone, etc etc without those things in order!


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## Jennywocky

jeb said:


> Ah, gotcha. That makes sense. My parents are still coping and my name has been changed for almost 2 years now. I never had the "I don't give 3 shits about you" mindset, but I certainly did have the "I'm not going to put my life on hold while you aren't doing anything to help yourself cope" mentality. Not sure if they resent me for not including them. You might have a better relationship with your parents by letting them deal with their internal stuff first.


Kind of in response to this and PP's comment -- I actually was going to ask my parents to help me choose my middle name, to help try to involve them in my transition and preserve some sense of family, and then I got a note saying they had cut me out of the will. So I just picked it on my own and went ahead, since it was clear I'd have no support.

Later my mom and I did reconcile, and she said the middle name I picked was actually that of one of her aunts or great aunts... so i guess it was her way of saying that I did well.

The parent/kid thing almost always gets squidgy, it will depend on the relationship to start with and how easily a parent deals with change and their views on the matter.



> Ah, alright. Well I'm glad that the credit bureau crap didn't happen to everyone, it was a real mess for me. Took months before I could even find contact information for them that wasn't just an automated message service. Can't rent an apartment, get a phone, etc etc without those things in order!


Uggh. Sorry you dealt with that. I only ever had to deal with the credit agencies once, I think -- when they assigned an account to me that wasn't mine because the name was similar. They weren't terrible, but I did have to jump through some hoops to prove it wasn't me and it was annoying.


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## Playful Proxy

Dear recent hormone bloodwork: Testosterone, you have been slayed, thoroughly. I wish I could say I was sorry, but I am sooooooo totally not. :happy:


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## AesSidhe

Playful Proxy said:


> Dear recent hormone bloodwork: Testosterone, you have been slayed, thoroughly. I wish I could say I was sorry, but I am sooooooo totally not. :happy:


It toke over a year to get totally slain?!! Waw I didn't know it could take that long


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## Playful Proxy

AesSidhe said:


> It toke over a year to get totally slain?!! Waw


Oh, 6 months in, my testosterone was down to 69pg/mL (don't even make the joke), buuuut I am quite pleased to see it dead as a doornail. ^^ Fwiw: male levels of testosterone are 300pg/mL - 800pg/mL while female amounts of testosterone I THINK are like 30pg/mL - 80pg/mL


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## Jennywocky

Playful Proxy said:


> Oh, 6 months in, my testosterone was down to 69pg/mL (don't even make the joke), buuuut I am quite pleased to see it dead as a doornail. ^^ Fwiw: male levels of testosterone are 300pg/mL - 800pg/mL while female amounts of testosterone I THINK are like 30pg/mL - 80pg/mL


yeah, I see male scaled at 300-1000 or even a bit higher (there's QUITE a range), and female is in the range you suggest. My T was at 35, when I had it checked two summers ago.


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## Playful Proxy

Jennywocky said:


> yeah, I see male scaled at 300-1000 or even a bit higher (there's QUITE a range), and female is in the range you suggest. My T was at 35, when I had it checked two summers ago.


Yeah, when I (some century or 3 from now) get SRS, then it'll REALLY die by hellfire, buuuut I don't get that quite yet. :crying:


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## Jennywocky

Playful Proxy said:


> Yeah, when I (some century or 3 from now) get SRS, then it'll REALLY die by hellfire, buuuut I don't get that quite yet. :crying:


it's not all fun and games. Unfortunately, I'm built for the rugged highlands or something, so I store fat. (you look like you have a slighter build than me, so maybe some weight gain would actually be helpful depending on where your body might put it.)

Once I cut down my T, losing weight has become a bitch. My weight has been creeping up and I'm probably gonna have to go on a six-month exercise/diet blitz to get down to something reasonable again.


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## Playful Proxy

Jennywocky said:


> it's not all fun and games. Unfortunately, I'm built for the rugged highlands or something, so I store fat. (you look like you have a slighter build than me, so maybe some weight gain would actually be helpful depending on where your body might put it.)
> 
> Once I cut down my T, losing weight has become a bitch. My weight has been creeping up and I'm probably gonna have to go on a six-month exercise/diet blitz to get down to something reasonable again.


I've been trying to gain weight, like, I seriously have but I lost 7lbs due to the flu so now I"m down to 132lbs at 5'11


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## Jennywocky

Playful Proxy said:


> I've been trying to gain weight, like, I seriously have but I lost 7lbs due to the flu so now I"m down to 132lbs at 5'11


Oh wow, girl. 

I'm 5'11 and probably make two of you right now. I don't LOOK that heavy (I carry my weight evenly distributed all over my body) - people are shocked on the rare occasion I let them know my weight -- but it's frustrating. I think my lowest weight ever (when my parents thought I had cancer because I lost so much weight) was 192.

I wish we could do the 'exchange program,' I'd be happy to share some of mine with you.


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## Playful Proxy

And on this day, I can officially say I am at 1 year on hormones! As of now, my total testosterone is at 34ng/dL. Estrogen's ~134ish but that's a guess since when I had the test I hadn't taken proper portions of E due to bedridden and Spiro's got more of a halflife than estrogen does. :/ BUT, I can add estrogen, T just takes forever to get down, but it's there


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## Amphoteric

Top surgery in two days. Strangely it hasn't hit me yet, but I'm looking forward to it nonetheless.


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## Metalize

So many transsexies! :th_woot:

Is it possible for a female alter her hormonal makeup to a significant degree (as in, blood tests would pass her as male, or difficult to define), without the use of synthetic or external hormones? It doesn't necessarily need to be "medically correct"; for example, extreme caloric restriction tends to "masculinize" female rats, as reflected through hormonal and behavioral changes. Simply theoretically speaking.


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## Playful Proxy

Metasentient said:


> So many transsexies! :th_woot:
> 
> Is it possible for a female alter her hormonal makeup to a significant degree (as in, blood tests would pass her as male, or difficult to define), without the use of synthetic or external hormones? It doesn't necessarily need to be "medically correct"; for example, extreme caloric restriction tends to "masculinize" female rats, as reflected through hormonal and behavioral changes. Simply theoretically speaking.


If you want your bloodtests to reflect male, you'd need testosterone shots for sure, and even then, you'd still technically be producing estrogen. Men have at least 10x the amount of T women do, and if you did this, your body would make uhh....changes. As for passing the bloodtest, the question people would ask if they know the sex (they try to get that information before performing the test as things are looked at differently as levels do differ between the two), it'd mostly just be a "Why is her testosterone so high?" So I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish exactly or why.


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## jeb

Metasentient said:


> So many transsexies! :th_woot:
> 
> Is it possible for a female alter her hormonal makeup to a significant degree (as in, blood tests would pass her as male, or difficult to define), without the use of synthetic or external hormones? It doesn't necessarily need to be "medically correct"; for example, extreme caloric restriction tends to "masculinize" female rats, as reflected through hormonal and behavioral changes. Simply theoretically speaking.


Not without something external, no.


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## Metalize

Playful Proxy said:


> If you want your bloodtests to reflect male, you'd need testosterone shots for sure, and even then, you'd still technically be producing estrogen. Men have at least 10x the amount of T women do, and if you did this, your body would make uhh....changes. As for passing the bloodtest, the question people would ask if they know the sex (they try to get that information before performing the test as things are looked at differently as levels do differ between the two), it'd mostly just be a "Why is her testosterone so high?" So I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish exactly or why.


I can't say I have a strongly defined goal in mind at this time, just playing with some curiosity. In addition to physical changes, the T on its own might actually have a rebound effect on the overall hormones anyway, due to aromatization (and what happens to some male bodybuilders abusing steroids). Thanks for your responses though.


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## jeb

Metasentient said:


> I can't say I have a strongly defined goal in mind at this time, just playing with some curiosity. In addition to physical changes, *the T on its own might actually have a rebound effect on the overall hormones anyway, due to aromatization* (and what happens to some male bodybuilders abusing steroids). Thanks for your responses though.


That only occurs if you are taking more than your prescribed dose and not monitoring your blood work carefully.


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## jeb

Wellsy said:


> Well I was making more of a point that I've heard it as a general political goal, at least here in Australia.
> Did look for stuff on the topic though you may know about it already.
> Government Urged to Subsidize Trans Surgery | ILGA
> Ban lifted on Medicare coverage for sex change surgery - The Washington Post
> U.S. board overturns Medicare ban on sex-change surgery - SFGate
> Sex Reassignment Surgeries Are Now Tax-Deductible
> I don't understand the US healthcare system so I don't know how far this extends, but at quick glance not seeing mention of specific kinds of surgeries.
> Though get the feeling it may well focus on the upper chest.


Interesting articles, thanks. Their vagueness would make me assume its all inclusive, which would be astonishing. I'd have to see the actual legislation. I know that the US Veterans Agency has been moving towards getting surgery covered (they already cover therapy, hormones and pre/post surgery care, just not the surgeries themselves). 

There are lots of positives for trans people in Australia, but the thing that sucks for trans people over there is that you're required to live as your preferred gender for a year before you can start hormones or surgery or the legal process (unless they've changed it recently) - which is a terrifying thought, and probably adds more stress and discomfort to an already stressful and uncomfortable situation.

With the US we have to pay for everything and only have the right to not be discriminated against in certain places. Progress is progress I guess.


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## Playful Proxy

This trans bathroom law stuff is freaking stupid. Guys, you can't just ban people from using the bathroom or risking lives. What the hell, Florida?


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## jeb

Playful Proxy said:


> This trans bathroom law stuff is freaking stupid. Guys, you can't just ban people from using the bathroom or risking lives. What the hell, Florida?


Bathroom laws are asinine. Trans women have it more rough in that regard, I think. Women are so nosey and weird about things in the bathroom.


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## Playful Proxy

jeb said:


> Bathroom laws are asinine. Trans women have it more rough in that regard, I think. Women are so nosey and weird about things in the bathroom.


Supposedly at my university, I pass 80% of the time as female but I'm still scared shitless to use the women's or the men's room. I pretty much just hold it at this point until I get back to my dorm because i really don't want to risk accidentally walking into the women's and running into one of the 20% and them making a gigantic scene. The men's is like, I would draw tons of attention regardless and I REALLY don't want to find out how that'd end. And people ask why passing is so important... :dry:

I mean, someone mentioned to me if I asked my school they may let me based on rules, but I still feel like it'd massively stir the waters, regardless and even in that case, I'd only use it in absolute emergencies.


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## jeb

Playful Proxy said:


> Supposedly at my university, I pass 80% of the time as female but I'm still scared shitless to use the women's or the men's room. I pretty much just hold it at this point until I get back to my dorm because i really don't want to risk accidentally walking into the women's and running into one of the 20% and them making a gigantic scene. The men's is like, I would draw tons of attention regardless and I REALLY don't want to find out how that'd end. And people ask why passing is so important... :dry:
> 
> I mean, someone mentioned to me if I asked my school they may let me based on rules, but I still feel like it'd massively stir the waters, regardless and even in that case, I'd only use it in absolute emergencies.


Asking only draws unwanted attention. Just do what you gotta do and if someone says something just ignore them or act all shocked and offended.


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## Jennywocky

jeb said:


> Asking only draws unwanted attention. Just do what you gotta do and if someone says something just ignore them or act all shocked and offended.


yeah, never let people see the fear in your eyes. Practice that look of confusion, shock, and/or offense if someone challenges you. I mean, you just want to use the bathroom and don't have any interest in creating a scene anyway.

I have a sense of when people were looking at me, and I knew the best approach was to just act like I belonged there rather than responding to it. That's what any other person would do who belonged there, who wasn't trans. (I guess it's a d20 Bluff check?)

I know it's scary, though, and hurts. The first summer I was out in force, I had the Maryland anti-trans psychos come up to me at a large fair and hand me fliers asking me to sign a petition to get the "kick transpeople out of the bathroom" motion on the state agenda (yeah, they were doing this back in 2008). It was cool that they didn't recognize me as trans, but it was so disturbing that I left the fair shortly after; it's hard feeling that kind of hate, that people despise and slander you just because of who you are. I know it feels easier just to avoid that situation whenever possible.


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## jeb

Jennywocky said:


> I know it's scary, though, and hurts. The first summer I was out in force, I had the Maryland anti-trans psychos come up to me at a large fair and hand me fliers asking me to sign a petition to get the "kick transpeople out of the bathroom" motion on the state agenda (yeah, they were doing this back in 2008). It was cool that they didn't recognize me as trans, but it was so disturbing that I left the fair shortly after


Funny that they're so passionate about a cause as to try and get legislation passed, but wouldn't know who their issue was with if they were standing right in front of them.


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## Jennywocky

jeb said:


> Funny that they're so passionate about a cause as to try and get legislation passed, but wouldn't know who their issue was with if they were standing right in front of them.


Yeah, it left me nauseated, disgusted, and furious. Am I really such a threat, if you can't even recognize me as trans? Just leave me alone, you know? It was sheer idiocy, they had no clue what they were afraid of. If it was me now, I might have told them off; at the time I was still very vulnerable. I had two female friends with me at the time, and one crumpled the flier they handed her and threw it away in front of them with some comment of disgust.


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## Playful Proxy

If this doesn't prove that gender is freaking inbuilt, i don't know what will.


----------



## Metaplanar

Good news and bad news.

The bad:

Mum is still trying her best to be supportive and accepting, but has difficulty understanding and so falls back on stuff like "It's all in your head" and "Can't you just not care about words? Everyone has to deal with wrong assumptions and stereotypes! Your gender is no one's business why would they need to know?" and "But your body is ____, and you have to learn to accept what you can't change - do you want to be unhappy?"
The internet as a source is generally not trustworthy, neither are professionals, who are often stuck in their own heads as much as the next person. And even if they were, other people's experiences are meaningless since everyone is different. Meaning that "if I want to be happy" I should try to work on changing my mindset and becoming someone I never wanted to be, completely neglecting to take into account that as far as I know that has never worked for anyone before.
Add threats that no one will ever take me seriously and everyone will just laugh behind my back and if I did change my body/presentation enough to actually appear androgynous, I would just appear like a child and attract pedophiles.
-.-

The good:

I came out to my supervisor and he's awesome about it!
It was important to know his stance before I make a decision on whether to follow him to a new place.
I expected that I could trust him, but he's even more amazing than I could have hoped. Informed himself, immediately agrees to use correct pronouns if I request that, even offered to help in case I need to know how to deal with the health care system for seeing someone abroad.


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## lolthevoidlol

Metaplanar said:


> Good news and bad news.
> 
> The bad:
> 
> Mum is still trying her best to be supportive and accepting, but has difficulty understanding and so falls back on stuff like "It's all in your head" and "Can't you just not care about words? Everyone has to deal with wrong assumptions and stereotypes! Your gender is no one's business why would they need to know?" and "But your body is ____, and you have to learn to accept what you can't change - do you want to be unhappy?"
> The internet as a source is generally not trustworthy, neither are professionals, who are often stuck in their own heads as much as the next person. And even if they were, other people's experiences are meaningless since everyone is different. Meaning that "if I want to be happy" I should try to work on changing my mindset and becoming someone I never wanted to be, completely neglecting to take into account that as far as I know that has never worked for anyone before.
> Add threats that no one will ever take me seriously and everyone will just laugh behind my back and if I did change my body/presentation enough to actually appear androgynous, I would just appear like a child and attract pedophiles.
> -.-
> 
> The good:
> 
> I came out to my supervisor and he's awesome about it!
> It was important to know his stance before I make a decision on whether to follow him to a new place.
> I expected that I could trust him, but he's even more amazing than I could have hoped. Informed himself, immediately agrees to use correct pronouns if I request that, even offered to help in case I need to know how to deal with the health care system for seeing someone abroad.


Yay for awesome supervisor! And isn't he counter evidence to your mom's points about no one taking you seriously?


----------



## Metaplanar

lolthevoidlol said:


> Yay for awesome supervisor! And isn't he counter evidence to your mom's points about no one taking you seriously?


It would seem that way. So are those of my friends who I'm out to. 
People from LGBT society or the like obviously don't count - such groups that routinely use "invented words" for people like me without blinking are not part of the "real world" and just playing make-believe games that might be reinforcing my problems.

Of course if my mum is to be believed anyone would only be like that to my face and either laugh behind my back or pity me for being sick and delusional. Way to feed my own fears.
And she doesn't even mean it in a bad way, she's just honestly scared for me and doesn't want that to happen.


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## jeb

@Boobywocky, your new name is outstanding.


----------



## Jennywocky

jeb said:


> _Boobywocky_, your new name is outstanding.


"It's real... and it's spec-TAC-ular!"











:laughing:


----------



## Playful Proxy

Dear all the giggling girls outside of my dorm room, you make me jealous as hell that your voice a) sounds that good, and b) that you can be so casual and nonchalant with friends in public like that while I look like this.  I can't wait for when I can easily walk around and not get funny looks and just blend in so I can be me.


----------



## Amphoteric

I'm about 10 days post-op and the worst part hasn't even been the recovery.

I can't sleep on my back and it's making me fucking miserable. Beside that, I'm happy with how my chest turned out, and it's a huge sense of relief knowing that I don't have to 'hide.' I still have to work on my posture after years of hunching over, and at times I get this ominous feeling that I'm forgetting something (binder), but I feel great. And for a chest that didn't cost me a cent out of pocket, I'm damn fucking ecstatic.


----------



## Jennywocky

Amphoteric said:


> I'm about 10 days post-op and the worst part hasn't even been the recovery.
> 
> I can't sleep on my back and it's making me fucking miserable. Beside that, I'm happy with how my chest turned out, and it's a huge sense of relief knowing that I don't have to 'hide.' I still have to work on my posture after years of hunching over, and at times I get this ominous feeling that I'm forgetting something (binder), but I feel great. And for a chest that didn't cost me a cent out of pocket, I'm damn fucking ecstatic.


Yeah, aftercare until stuff heals can be a bitch in either direction. (My BA was far worse for me, pain-wise, than other things.) But I too found such a huge relief in no longer feeling like I had to "hide" etc.

I think it's exciting you're onto the next step, feel good about it, and... it was free. Good for you, that's a victory to be honest.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Dear social anxiety, it seems we meet again. >.> Please stop pestering me, I need to worry about exams and all you seem to do is make me skip classes.


----------



## Kriash

Trans thread <3 <3 (I plan to go through and read all this soooon)


----------



## Playful Proxy

So guys, just a head's up, I was going through my old posts and stumbled across this. I've been on hormones for one year and hadn't come out to myself until a year before that, so around 2014ish. Now look at the date of this post. So irony, much wow.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

any other transmasculine types with still functioning uteri find themselves in complete denial about that monthly curse?

I can't tell if this is the general disconnect I feel from my body, a low Se/Si thing, a low sp thing, a trans thing, or completely common for a lot of people, but I swear to glob every frickin month it's the same process.

It starts with "omg I'm getting fat, wtf I'm not doing anything different, whyyyyy? *sob*"

Then, "omg why am I so tired I haven't been doing anything?"

Then, "omg why am I so achy jebus am I getting that old already?"

Then, "omg bowels make up your mind. am I getting sick?"

Then, "OH. fuck. daaaaammit. *facepalm*"

In other news, can't wait to get a hysterectomy.


----------



## He's a Superhero!

I saw this video on Youtube and I wanted to share it...


----------



## Lexicon Devil

lolthevoidlol said:


> In other news, can't wait to get a hysterectomy.


Like, can I have your uterus then. Please. :happy:


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Jeff Felis said:


> Like, can I have your uterus then. Please. :happy:


you are more than welcome to it


----------



## Lexicon Devil

lolthevoidlol said:


> you are more than welcome to it


I shall consider it found art.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Found_object


----------



## TWN

lolthevoidlol said:


> any other transmasculine types with still functioning uteri find themselves in complete denial about that monthly curse?
> 
> I can't tell if this is the general disconnect I feel from my body, a low Se/Si thing, a low sp thing, a trans thing, or completely common for a lot of people, but I swear to glob every frickin month it's the same process.
> 
> It starts with "omg I'm getting fat, wtf I'm not doing anything different, whyyyyy? *sob*"
> 
> Then, "omg why am I so tired I haven't been doing anything?"
> 
> Then, "omg why am I so achy jebus am I getting that old already?"
> 
> Then, "omg bowels make up your mind. am I getting sick?"
> 
> Then, "OH. fuck. daaaaammit. *facepalm*"
> 
> In other news, can't wait to get a hysterectomy.


Every. Fucking. Month. GAHHHHHHHHHHH. Fuck me.

Sadly, a hysterectomy is off the table, for me. I don't think I'd be able to handle lifelong hormone replacement therapy.

Ugh. I've hated that thing so much, that even thinking about getting rid of it makes me itch.


----------



## TWN

Playful Proxy said:


> Dear all the giggling girls outside of my dorm room, you make me jealous as hell that your voice a) sounds that good, and b) that you can be so casual and nonchalant with friends in public like that while I look like this.  I can't wait for when I can easily walk around and not get funny looks and just blend in so I can be me.



Please stop this, my fellow trans people.

Stop feeling jealous of what someone has, by default.

You're a work-in-progress, and unlike most people, you get to meticulously build your perfect body.


----------



## Playful Proxy

TWN said:


> Please stop this, my fellow trans people.
> 
> Stop feeling jealous of what someone has, by default.
> 
> You're a work-in-progress, and unlike most people, you get to meticulously build your perfect body.


Part of mine isn't about building my body, it's that my body built too much, I'm 5'11 and fairly broad shouldered  No surgery that's even half-safe will do anything about that.


----------



## TWN

Playful Proxy said:


> Part of mine isn't about building my body, it's that my body built too much, I'm 5'11 and fairly broad shouldered  No surgery that's even half-safe will do anything about that.



*Hugs*

I feel the same way about a hysterectomy.

I dont consider it safe for myself (Since, I dont plan on taking testosterone), so I have to keep putting up with bleeding out every month, like a fucking wounded animal in the wild waiting for a tiger to come maul me, and end my suffering.


----------



## Sara Torailles

Playful Proxy said:


> So guys, just a head's up, I was going through my old posts and stumbled across this. I've been on hormones for one year and hadn't come out to myself until a year before that, so around 2014ish. Now look at the date of this post. So irony, much wow.


I went through some of my old posts and I had some off-hand comment before I came out to myself about how I really wanted a pair of breasts.

:blushed:


----------



## Metalize

Hey um, question for the FtMs... 

Besides testosterone injections, is there anything that will meaningfully work (for the female body) to raise T levels relative to estrogen/progesterone, without triggering aromatization (or simultaneously inhibiting it?) 

I'd done quite a bit of research on this already, but unfortunately, some of the advice is contradictory, ineffective, or seems to be geared towards men. I'm already incorporating strength training into my routine, now looking into diet, supplements, or anything else I can do myself.


----------



## jeb

Metasentient said:


> Hey um, question for the FtMs...
> 
> Besides testosterone injections, is there anything that will meaningfully work (for the female body) to raise T levels relative to estrogen/progesterone, without triggering aromatization (or simultaneously inhibiting it?)
> 
> I'd done quite a bit of research on this already, but unfortunately, some of the advice is contradictory, ineffective, or seems to be geared towards men. I'm already incorporating strength training into my routine, now looking into diet, supplements, or anything else I can do myself.


Injections are really the only way to go, imo. 

There are some people who believe otherwise, here's a book on the subject: http://www.lulu.com/shop/tristan-sk...m-alternative/paperback/product-16532595.html


----------



## Metalize

jeb said:


> Injections are really the only way to go, imo.
> 
> There are some people who believe otherwise, here's a book on the subject: Natural Transitioning: an FTM alternative by Tristan Skye (Paperback) - Lulu


Interesting. There's a lot of discussions around that book, so that's a place to explore.

Okay, thanks.


----------



## jeb

Metasentient said:


> Interesting. There's a lot of discussions around that book, so that's a place to explore.
> 
> Okay, thanks.


Apparently the guy who wrote it ended up injecting anyway.


----------



## Metalize

lolthevoidlol said:


> any other transmasculine types with still functioning uteri find themselves in complete denial about that monthly curse?
> 
> I can't tell if this is the general disconnect I feel from my body, a low Se/Si thing, a low sp thing, a trans thing, or completely common for a lot of people, but I swear to glob every frickin month it's the same process.
> 
> It starts with "omg I'm getting fat, wtf I'm not doing anything different, whyyyyy? *sob*"
> 
> Then, "omg why am I so tired I haven't been doing anything?"
> 
> Then, "omg why am I so achy jebus am I getting that old already?"
> 
> Then, "omg bowels make up your mind. am I getting sick?"
> 
> Then, "OH. fuck. daaaaammit. *facepalm*"
> 
> In other news, can't wait to get a hysterectomy.


I'm currently researching (and somewhat putting in action) a number of ways to stop or reduce it.

The first way is the most well-known, and that's birth control. I've never done it and don't intend to, seeing as it will lock me into the mercy of insurance companies for the rest of my life, plus I'm afraid of what all the estrogen will do to me (trying to lower it). 

Second is hysterectomy. Yeah, HRT for the rest of my life to prevent early menopause (that'll probably happen anyway) which is also dependent on insurance. nty

Third... well, low body weight. I'm just having trouble figuring out how to get to that stage while maintaining decently high T levels, though apparently female rats (not male ones) do undergo biochemical masculinization on a severely reduced calorie diet. The issues here are obvious: it hurts, it's going to suck, I'm basically going to have an eating disorder for the rest of my life, I'll have to watch out for osteoporosis, and I don't know what other long-term effects there'll be (particularly if I weight-train to keep up T, but on a malnourished body). 

But it seems to be the most self-reliant way to do it.


----------



## Halcyon

Metasentient said:


> I'm currently researching (and somewhat putting in action) a number of ways to stop or reduce it.
> 
> The first way is the most well-known, and that's birth control. I've never done it and don't intend to, seeing as it will lock me into the mercy of insurance companies for the rest of my life, plus I'm afraid of what all the estrogen will do to me (trying to lower it).
> 
> Second is hysterectomy. Yeah, HRT for the rest of my life to prevent early menopause (that'll probably happen anyway) which is also dependent on insurance. nty
> 
> Third... well, low body weight. I'm just having trouble figuring out how to get to that stage while maintaining decently high T levels, though apparently female rats (not male ones) do undergo biochemical masculinization on a severely reduced calorie diet. The issues here are obvious: it hurts, it's going to suck, I'm basically going to have an eating disorder for the rest of my life, I'll have to watch out for osteoporosis, and I don't know what other long-term effects there'll be (particularly if I weight-train to keep up T, but on a malnourished body).
> 
> But it seems to be the most self-reliant way to do it.


Please be careful.


----------



## Metalize

Halcyon said:


> Please be careful.



Thanks, I'm trying.

I figure that at this point, I won't get a 100% perfect result either way, so it's a question of picking the lesser of two evils and working systematically towards it.


----------



## Halcyon

Metasentient said:


> Thanks, I'm trying.
> 
> I figure that at this point, I won't get a 100% perfect result either way, so it's a question of picking the lesser of two evils and working systematically towards it.


It's your transition and your body so it's totally your decision to make as far as what road you want to take but please try not to compromise your health or cause yourself bodily harm in the process.... I mean, what good is transitioning if you're not alive and well enough to share your new awesome self with the world! ^^


----------



## jeb

Metasentient said:


> Third... well, low body weight. I'm just having trouble figuring out how to get to that stage while maintaining decently high T levels, though apparently female rats (not male ones) do undergo biochemical masculinization on a severely reduced calorie diet. The issues here are obvious: it hurts, it's going to suck, I'm basically going to have an eating disorder for the rest of my life, I'll have to watch out for osteoporosis, and I don't know what other long-term effects there'll be (particularly if I weight-train to keep up T, but on a malnourished body).


What is the purpose of making yourself malnourished?


----------



## Metalize

jeb said:


> What is the purpose of making yourself malnourished?


My goal would be to reduce body fat to cease menstruating (or strongly reduce it, if there's that middle stage), while keeping myself nourished as much as possible.


----------



## jeb

Metasentient said:


> My goal would be to reduce body fat to cease menstruating (or strongly reduce it, if there's that middle stage), while keeping myself nourished as much as possible.


That is like a dangerously low amount of body fat, though. Isn't it? 

What are your goals - broadly?


----------



## Halcyon

Hm, writing that post made me wonder: would you rather die as a fully transitioned whatever-you-wanna-be and be remembered as the gender you transitioned to or live without ever having the possibility of transitioning and go on being thought of as what you were designated at birth? I know that is a very morbid thing to ask and may even be offensive because I'm essentially asking you to weigh your transition against your life so you guys do not have to answer if you don't want to of course but the reason I ask that is because of the trans suicide epidemic that unfortunately seems to be getting worse.... :^[ It seems many of the people, especially teenagers, that kill themselves over issues related to being trans do so at least partially thinking that their death is the only way people will acknowledge their transness and because they think there is no hope for their transition or that it's too late. I'm not going to pass judgement on their decision to do that because it's their life and what they decide to do with it is up to them and it isn't my prerogative to decide whether their decision is justified or not but I guess what I'm really asking is, how do you think you would handle it if you were in a situation where you didn't view your transition as possible? If you've actually been there, what was it like and what did you do to shift your thinking and get out of that mindset? Or have you not gotten out of it? 

Once again, I understand this is an extremely sensitive topic so if it is wrong of me to ask this, I apologize.


----------



## Metalize

jeb said:


> That is like a dangerously low amount of body fat, though. Isn't it?
> 
> What are your goals - broadly?


That's the thing; I'm not sure it actually is as bad as it sounds. It's generally treated that way by mainstream medical sites for the sole reason that a woman becomes temporarily infertile (and somewhat more at risk for osteoporosis later on), but I'm sure that most people wouldn't argue that female athletes are in better shape than your average female, and a lot of them actually cease menstruation for some months at a time. It's not even just something that happens to anorexics or to Olympic champions, it's just a natural consequence of having a low body fat (17-22%) while working out. Not to mention all the benefits of controlled calorie restriction for longevity and a number of diseases.

Right now, I just want an experiment that I can reverse at any time. I have always had body dysmorphia. Even before puberty, I just dreaded the thought of looking like that, so I never felt comfortable in my body. Being in my early 20s, it's probably safe to say that any confused adolescent phase would have already passed by now. On top of this, I have a whole host of hormonal issues that have seemingly no treatment, that I think could be reversed if I reduce the female sex hormones (which are largely responsible for a number of chronic and autoimmune conditions in the body). My cycle is getting worse these days too, and the doctors didn't find anything wrong so they just wanted to put me on bcp. Reading on the effects of testosterone, I think I (and many other people in the USA, where we have the issue of synthetic chemicals in the environment causing estrogen dominance) would greatly benefit from T's physical and cognitive effects, even if they carry some... unaesthetic side effects.

So... reduce female sex hormones for health and body dysmorphic issues, raise T, bulk somewhat, stop periods. In terms of appearance, I'm content to remain looking female, just hopefully with very reduced sexual characteristics (so maybe borderline androgynous). But my main concern is health, cognition, and a feeling of well-being that isn't contingent on how I look.


----------



## Metalize

Halcyon said:


> Hm, writing that post made me wonder: would you rather die as a fully transitioned whatever-you-wanna-be and be remembered as the gender you transitioned to or live without ever having the possibility of transitioning and go on being thought of as what you were designated at birth? I know that is a very morbid thing to ask and may even be offensive because I'm essentially asking you to weigh your transition against your life so you guys do not have to answer if you don't want to of course but the reason I ask that is because of the trans suicide epidemic that unfortunately seems to be getting worse.... :^[ It seems many of the people, especially teenagers, that kill themselves over issues related to being trans do so at least partially thinking that their death is the only way people will acknowledge their transness and because they think there is no hope for their transition or that it's too late. I'm not going to pass judgement on their decision to do that because it's their life and what they decide to do with it is up to them and it isn't my prerogative to decide whether their decision is justified or not but I guess what I'm really asking is, how do you think you would handle it if you were in a situation where you didn't view your transition as possible? If you've actually been there, what was it like and what did you do to shift your thinking and get out of that mindset? Or have you not gotten out of it?
> 
> Once again, I understand this is an extremely sensitive topic so if it is wrong of me to ask this, I apologize.


The thing is though, I don't really consider myself "trans", so I don't consider this process transitioning. At this stage, it's just experimentation and biochemical modification. I have a slight preference for being a guy over a girl, but it honestly matters less to me what other people think; I just want to feel content in my body, and I don't think I can do that while it appears as feminized as it does now, plus the health issues I have that I'd attribute to haywire female hormones. Actually, I wouldn't mind looking like a little girl even, it's the sexual aspects I want to get rid of (as an asexual, I'm distressed by unwanted attention even if it's supposedly a "compliment" or something). Lol, I remember a few times in my life that a (female) friend complimented my chest, and I actually burst in tears because it hurt so much to be reminded of that. 

In addition, I really want to get the benefits of T.

It's not an offensive question to me, but then again, I'm not really trans and I feel it'd be insulting to those who actually are trans to call myself that. I'd prefer some form of androgyny, or more practically, physical desexualization with a bent towards the benefits that T will give me. We know T makes you physically stronger, which I want, and it raises a number of abstract/spatial cognitive abilities. I can link to the studies if you want, but the link has been proven in administering T to FtM, and in male and female toddlers (so clearing all cultural/social biases).

Oh, to answer your questions -- for the longest time, I thought it was a phase and wanted to train myself out of it. I thought if I would just get my life together in other places, I'd be fine. But I hit my limit when the health BS spiraled out of control (while my male peers are thriving) and I realized that I probably shouldn't ignore something that's gnawing at me every day. At the moment, I've not done anything significant to make changes to myself, so I probably would continue on as I am if there was really nothing I could do.


----------



## Halcyon

Metasentient said:


> The thing is though, I don't really consider myself "trans", so I don't consider this process transitioning. At this stage, it's just experimentation and biochemical modification. I have a slight preference for being a guy over a girl, but it honestly matters less to me what other people think; I just want to feel content in my body, and I don't think I can do that while it appears as feminized as it does now, plus the health issues I have that I'd attribute to haywire female hormones. Actually, I wouldn't mind looking like a little girl even, it's the sexual aspects I want to get rid of (as an asexual, I'm distressed by unwanted attention even if it's supposedly a "compliment" or something). Lol, I remember a few times in my life that a (female) friend complimented my chest, and I actually burst in tears because it hurt so much to be reminded of that.
> 
> In addition, I really want to get the benefits of T.
> 
> It's not an offensive question to me, but then again, I'm not really trans and I feel it'd be insulting to those who actually are trans to call myself that. I'd prefer some form of androgyny, or more practically, physical desexualization with a bent towards the benefits that T will give me.


Hm, yeah. I don't label myself as trans either because while I don't identify with my assigned gender, which definitionally is what transgender means, I don't really identify as anything else either. I mean, I know I'm nonbinary but beyond that, I'm not sure and I don't feel enough dysphoria to the point where I feel altering my body or hormones in any way is something I would do, or at least not currently. So I dunno, I feel like it wouldn't be right to call myself trans. Ideally, I'd want to be totally androgynous and have no external primary or secondary sex characteristics of either sex as you said, but that is kind of impossible to achieve so meh.



> We know T makes you physically stronger, which I want, and it raises a number of abstract/spatial cognitive abilities. I can link to the studies if you want, but the link has been proven in administering T to FtM, and in male and female toddlers (so clearing all cultural/social biases).


Ooh, I haven't heard about the link between T and cognition. That's quite interesting!



> Oh, to answer your questions -- for the longest time, I thought it was a phase and wanted to train myself out of it. I thought if I would just get my life together in other places, I'd be fine. But I hit my limit when the health BS spiraled out of control (while my male peers are thriving) and I realized that I probably shouldn't ignore something that's gnawing at me every day. At the moment, I've not done anything significant to make changes to myself, so I probably would continue on as I am if there was really nothing I could do.


Ah, I see. Well I hope your health improves and thank you for the response!


----------



## Playful Proxy

So...I'm living with my parents over the summer until the fall semester starts up again and I can move back in with friends. After having spent 6 months on a university campus full of no one knowing I was trans, calling me she/her, and my name, and even having guys flirt with me, I'm back home told I'm not allowed to wear female clothes, called he/him/birthname, and they are only saying I can wear a bra under my shirts (else it'd look hella awkward if I didn't). Someone shoot me. :dry:


----------



## jeb

Metasentient said:


> That's the thing; I'm not sure it actually is as bad as it sounds. It's generally treated that way by mainstream medical sites for the sole reason that a woman becomes temporarily infertile (and somewhat more at risk for osteoporosis later on), but I'm sure that most people wouldn't argue that female athletes are in better shape than your average female, and a lot of them actually cease menstruation for some months at a time. It's not even just something that happens to anorexics or to Olympic champions, it's just a natural consequence of having a low body fat (17-22%) while working out. Not to mention all the benefits of controlled calorie restriction for longevity and a number of diseases.
> 
> Right now, I just want an experiment that I can reverse at any time. I have always had body dysmorphia. Even before puberty, I just dreaded the thought of looking like that, so I never felt comfortable in my body. Being in my early 20s, it's probably safe to say that any confused adolescent phase would have already passed by now. On top of this, I have a whole host of hormonal issues that have seemingly no treatment, that I think could be reversed if I reduce the female sex hormones (which are largely responsible for a number of chronic and autoimmune conditions in the body). My cycle is getting worse these days too, and the doctors didn't find anything wrong so they just wanted to put me on bcp. Reading on the effects of testosterone, I think I (and many other people in the USA, where we have the issue of synthetic chemicals in the environment causing estrogen dominance) would greatly benefit from T's physical and cognitive effects, even if they carry some... unaesthetic side effects.
> 
> So... reduce female sex hormones for health and body dysmorphic issues, raise T, bulk somewhat, stop periods. In terms of appearance, I'm content to remain looking female, just hopefully with very reduced sexual characteristics (so maybe borderline androgynous). But my main concern is health, cognition, and a feeling of well-being that isn't contingent on how I look.


Hmmm. It must be difficult to be in that situation where you're caught in the middle. 

The thing with T is that if it doesn't convert to estrogen then you'll start changing in all of the listed ways. So raising your T will either end up raising your estrogen or you'll start changing as if you injected (slowly, though).

Regarding the bodyfat thing, I'd definitely consult a physician before starting (or to see how healthy it really is), just to make sure you have the best advice possible in order to stay healthy. As with any diet/exercise regimen, there are a lot of things to take into account. They can also monitor your health throughout the process should you choose to pursue that. Always be safe!


----------



## Sara Torailles

So... I'm at a crossroads. I'm light-skinned and dark-haired and definitely can't afford laser at the moment and I want to go on HRT. I heard from various sources that it's advisable to start laser before HRT so the hair can be targeted more easily. I heard electrolysis is more expensive. I have no idea how to hide my beard shadow, and I've got it pretty dark. It still shows even right after I shave.

Wat do?


----------



## Metaplanar

Shutting down the procreation mechanism through diet/exercise is a stress reaction. It means your body is trying to conserve resources wherever possible and can't afford to keep nonessential processes going.
Sure, some athletes get that effect without appearing to be totally malnourished, but that is a sign that they overexert themselves. Overexertion works relatively fast to that end, too. Happened to me once, when I participated in a sport camp thing where I was basically training the whole day for a week. (Oh the disappointment one month later, some part of me had started to hope my body had realised its mistake and given that up for good)
I suspect that it might be relatively harmless for a short while, but as a constant state it can't be good.


----------



## Shahada

Torai said:


> So... I'm at a crossroads. I'm light-skinned and dark-haired and definitely can't afford laser at the moment and I want to go on HRT. I heard from various sources that it's advisable to start laser before HRT so the hair can be targeted more easily. I heard electrolysis is more expensive. I have no idea how to hide my beard shadow, and I've got it pretty dark. It still shows even right after I shave.
> 
> Wat do?


Have you looked on Groupon or sites like that? Laser deals are pretty common on those sites and if you get it through there I don't think laser is that expensive relatively, but yeah I wouldn't call it "cheap" either depending on your income and stuff. If you live in or near a major city with good trans health resources sometimes you can get a better deal through those guys and in a possibly less awkward environment. I'm pretty sure it won't make that big a difference overall in the long run whether you do it before or after HRT though, there's advantages and disadvantages to both and it just depends on your situation what's better for you really.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Torai said:


> So... I'm at a crossroads. I'm light-skinned and dark-haired and definitely can't afford laser at the moment and I want to go on HRT. I heard from various sources that it's advisable to start laser before HRT so the hair can be targeted more easily. I heard electrolysis is more expensive. I have no idea how to hide my beard shadow, and I've got it pretty dark. It still shows even right after I shave.
> 
> Wat do?


I found a Groupon code that I paid $150 for 6 laser sessions and that gets rid of a large majority of it. Now I just use a facial epilator every so often. I'll do electrolysis when I can actually pay for it, ahah.


----------



## Jennywocky

Playful Proxy said:


> I found a Groupon code that I paid $150 for 6 laser sessions and that gets rid of a large majority of it. Now I just use a facial epilator every so often. I'll do electrolysis when I can actually pay for it, ahah.


That'sa pretty impressive price for 6 sessions.

Quality usually depends on the technician and how well the sessions are staggered (so you can each new growth wave). I did have a lot of success with 6-7 sessions of Alexandrite laser + a YAG; I only ended up doing about 80 hours of electrolysis. I've heard of people with dark beards doing 400 hours.

the pain shot way up for me after starting HRT. It's another consideration.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Jennywocky said:


> That'sa pretty impressive price for 6 sessions.
> 
> Quality usually depends on the technician and how well the sessions are staggered (so you can each new growth wave). I did have a lot of success with 6-7 sessions of Alexandrite laser + a YAG; I only ended up doing about 80 hours of electrolysis. I've heard of people with dark beards doing 400 hours.
> 
> the pain shot way up for me after starting HRT. It's another consideration.


Yeah, after 6 sessions I do have some left, but I can mostly use a facial epilator for that until I can afford electrolysis. It's not really that much though, I have quite a few white clear hairs but not many dark brown ones.


----------



## Doktorin Zylinder

Playful Proxy said:


> I found a Groupon code that I paid $150 for 6 laser sessions and that gets rid of a large majority of it. Now I just use a facial epilator every so often. I'll do electrolysis when I can actually pay for it, ahah.


That is incredibly fortunate of you to get such a great deal on hair removal. I'm happy for you. :happy: Every time I walk in, it costs me nearly two fifty for my face. 



Jennywocky said:


> That'sa pretty impressive price for 6 sessions.
> 
> Quality usually depends on the technician and how well the sessions are staggered (so you can each new growth wave). I did have a lot of success with 6-7 sessions of Alexandrite laser + a YAG; I only ended up doing about 80 hours of electrolysis. I've heard of people with dark beards doing 400 hours.
> 
> the pain shot way up for me after starting HRT. It's another consideration.


I was lucky that my facial hair never fully came in. I could only grow a weird semblance of a beard (it looked good when I had it) and once I started HRT, part of it actually went away of it's own accord. 

I found that estrogen increased my pain tolerance. I have absolutely no idea why, but It doesn't really hurt all that much for me like it did before. 

I'm dreading having electrolysis done due to the fact that I can't stand needles and have a tendency of fainting.  I can really see it not going well. If I'm unconscious, it won't be painful, but I'm not sure if they'd be willing to do it on me, then.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Doktorin Zylinder said:


> That is incredibly fortunate of you to get such a great deal on hair removal. I'm happy for you. :happy: Every time I walk in, it costs me nearly two fifty for my face.
> 
> 
> 
> I was lucky that my facial hair never fully came in. I could only grow a weird semblance of a beard (it looked good when I had it) and once I started HRT, part of it actually went away of it's own accord.
> 
> I found that estrogen increased my pain tolerance. I have absolutely no idea why, but It doesn't really hurt all that much for me like it did before.
> 
> I'm dreading having electrolysis done due to the fact that I can't stand needles and have a tendency of fainting.  I can really see it not going well. If I'm unconscious, it won't be painful, but I'm not sure if they'd be willing to do it on me, then.


Ouch, yeah, electrolysis is really not within my budget atm, I hope I can patch it up later. My laser tech commented how high my pain tolerance was and how I never moved or even budged through 95% of it. I just kinda half joked that I'd been through so much hell, there wasn't really much worse she could do to me. My pain tolerance decreased on HRT though and I think part of it was because I was so emotionally dead preHRT that I couldn't really feel a whole lot of anything. When I finally got on HRT and realized that life was starting to gain some meaning, all the feels and pain receptors turned back on. The sad part is that I wasn't kidding.


----------



## Sara Torailles

Shahada said:


> Have you looked on Groupon or sites like that? Laser deals are pretty common on those sites and if you get it through there I don't think laser is that expensive relatively, but yeah I wouldn't call it "cheap" either depending on your income and stuff. If you live in or near a major city with good trans health resources sometimes you can get a better deal through those guys and in a possibly less awkward environment. I'm pretty sure it won't make that big a difference overall in the long run whether you do it before or after HRT though, there's advantages and disadvantages to both and it just depends on your situation what's better for you really.





Playful Proxy said:


> I found a Groupon code that I paid $150 for 6 laser sessions and that gets rid of a large majority of it. Now I just use a facial epilator every so often. I'll do electrolysis when I can actually pay for it, ahah.


I'm still a little iffy about Groupon. I've heard IPL is a waste of money, but I'm not sure about YAG or diode. I know Alexandrite is the best for my light skin since it will be done in fewer sessions.

I've heard of people being scammed on Groupon as well, and there aren't as many choices as I would hope in a city like mine.

I hear laser is cumulative, so it might not matter as much in the end, but... I wish my path was clearly laid out, but money makes the world go around, I guess.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Sara Torailles said:


> I'm still a little iffy about Groupon. I've heard IPL is a waste of money, but I'm not sure about YAG or diode. I know Alexandrite is the best for my light skin since it will be done in fewer sessions.
> 
> I've heard of people being scammed on Groupon as well, and there aren't as many choices as I would hope in a city like mine.
> 
> I hear laser is cumulative, so it might not matter as much in the end, but... I wish my path was clearly laid out, but money makes the world go around, I guess.


IPL is bullshit, but if you go after an alexandrite laser or YAG. I got ALEX, myself since I"m whiter than snow itself. ^^


----------



## Jennywocky

Yeah, IPL is not really effective for what you want to accomplish.
Does IPL hair removal really work? - Telegraph

Dok, I've occasionally heard from M2Fs who say they hurt less after HRT, but not typically. Maybe it's a superpower or something; for me, my skin got MUCH more sensitive to texture and sensation, not just with hair-removal stuff but materials and air currents and water and whatever else. It's like my whole body was dead before and physically became sensate finally.


----------



## Doktorin Zylinder

Jennywocky said:


> Dok, I've occasionally heard from M2Fs who say they hurt less after HRT, but not typically. Maybe it's a superpower or something; for me, my skin got MUCH more sensitive to texture and sensation, not just with hair-removal stuff but materials and air currents and water and whatever else. It's like my whole body was dead before and physically became sensate finally.


I gave up on being typical years ago, Jennywocky, but I had a pretty high pain tolerance to begin with. Maybe it's some genetic switch that estrogen flicks. I am liking this idea of superpowers, though. Now, if only I could fly, walk through walls, and change my physical apparatus at will. 

It was bad enough that I had sensory issues before HRT due to being an aspie but, holy hell from here to the moon, estrogen just made them go of the chart. I can feel a draft in an instant, now, and I can smell things from blocks away and tell you want it is. I've never been able to wear jeans or wool without tights on underneath of them, but almost every fabric sends me for a loop, now. I've taken to the habit of only wear soft, slinky things, mostly nylon or synthetic blends due to not wanting to have a meltdown. I'm pretty sure cotton has a hit out on me, too. I've had to systematically go through all my clothes and remove the tags because they drive me batty. It's a fabric conspiracy. 

Testosterone's ability to thicken skin and deaden sensation almost makes me feel sorry for what men miss. Physical sensations, when I can stand them, are so much of a pleasure after starting my transition. As you say, it's no longer dead. Almost a rebirth of sorts.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/152329523/dapper-boi


----------



## Jennywocky

Doktorin Zylinder said:


> It was bad enough that I had sensory issues before HRT due to being an aspie but, holy hell from here to the moon, estrogen just made them go of the chart. I can feel a draft in an instant, now, and I can smell things from blocks away and tell you want it is. I've never been able to wear jeans or wool without tights on underneath of them, but almost every fabric sends me for a loop, now. I've taken to the habit of only wear soft, slinky things, mostly nylon or synthetic blends due to not wanting to have a meltdown. I'm pretty sure cotton has a hit out on me, too. I've had to systematically go through all my clothes and remove the tags because they drive me batty. It's a fabric conspiracy.


Yes, it was one of those changes that caught me off-guard. I had used to think that female garments used softer/smoother fabrics because of some social convention, then after HRT was established I was like, "gaaah, can't wear that old stuff anymore." It's actually rough on my skin. Obviously every man and woman is different, and hormone levels vary in any individual, but for me going "estrogen-dom" made a very pronounced shift in my skin and pain sensitivity.

I would very much consider it all a "rebirth" on so many levels. I'm still "me" but it's definitely like being born into a new form.

Superpowers, sigh. I can fly... well, maybe.  [see Supergirl]


----------



## Metalize

jeb said:


> Hmmm. It must be difficult to be in that situation where you're caught in the middle.
> 
> The thing with T is that if it doesn't convert to estrogen then you'll start changing in all of the listed ways. So raising your T will either end up raising your estrogen or you'll start changing as if you injected (slowly, though).
> 
> Regarding the bodyfat thing, I'd definitely consult a physician before starting (or to see how healthy it really is), just to make sure you have the best advice possible in order to stay healthy. As with any diet/exercise regimen, there are a lot of things to take into account. They can also monitor your health throughout the process should you choose to pursue that. Always be safe!


Right, thanks for your advice. 

Well, since we know that it's impossible to significantly toggle E/T ratios without chemical steroids/injections, I probably won't trigger any kind of aromatization just messing with things on my own. (Likely won't make any changes radical enough to really mess with the numbers at all; I only see possibility in an overall decrease in everything, but that's something I have to find out myself.)

It's true; I probably won't hit those levels for a while though (trying not to go hard as to not plateau), making some noticeable progress though. Thanks again!

Wow, @Jennywocky's post just makes me want to get rid of this thing (or reduce it to low levels) even more.


----------



## Jennywocky

Metasentient said:


> Right, thanks for your advice.
> 
> Well, since we know that it's impossible to significantly toggle E/T ratios without chemical steroids/injections, I probably won't trigger any kind of aromatization just messing with things on my own. (Likely won't make any changes radical enough to really mess with the numbers at all; I only see possibility in an overall decrease in everything, but that's something I have to find out myself.)
> 
> It's true; I probably won't hit those levels for a while though (trying not to go hard as to not plateau), making some noticeable progress though. Thanks again!
> 
> Wow, _Jennywocky_'s post just makes me want to get rid of this thing (or reduce it to low levels) even more.


If you do the whole "life change / social transition" thing, you typically do end up losing some stuff. But I don't know why I waited so long to make changes (well, aside from love for my family and not wanting to put them through the hell of change... plus of course some fear and uncertainty over outcome); while I get depressed about various things in life nowadays, sure, there's a core happiness to me that I never had because I'm just "me" finally and my life contentment overall is far far better than it ever was or could have been....

I mean, you have to make your own personal decision, but if you hate something after you explore it, you can always stop.


----------



## Metalize

Jennywocky said:


> If you do the whole "life change / social transition" thing, you typically do end up losing some stuff. But I don't know why I waited so long to make changes (well, aside from love for my family and not wanting to put them through the hell of change... plus of course some fear and uncertainty over outcome); while I get depressed about various things in life nowadays, sure, there's a core happiness to me that I never had because I'm just "me" finally and my life contentment overall is far far better than it ever was or could have been....
> 
> I mean, you have to make your own personal decision, but if you hate something after you explore it, you can always stop.


I'm glad that you were able to find yourself, so to speak (or at least become more consistent with how you've always felt yourself to be). It's really such a valuable thing; so many people go through life without having found it at all, I feel.

Thank you, I'm really not in a bad situation at all in this sense; all I want is androgyny or just the minimization of sexual features, which can be accomplished to a reasonable extent just by getting to a low body weight. The T will be easier to work with afterwards.


----------



## Doktorin Zylinder

Jennywocky said:


> If you do the whole "life change / social transition" thing, you typically do end up losing some stuff. But I don't know why I waited so long to make changes (well, aside from love for my family and not wanting to put them through the hell of change... plus of course some fear and uncertainty over outcome); while I get depressed about various things in life nowadays, sure, there's a core happiness to me that I never had because I'm just "me" finally and my life contentment overall is far far better than it ever was or could have been....
> 
> I mean, you have to make your own personal decision, but if you hate something after you explore it, you can always stop.





Metasentient said:


> I'm glad that you were able to find yourself, so to speak (or at least become more consistent with how you've always felt yourself to be). It's really such a valuable thing; so many people go through life without having found it at all, I feel.
> 
> Thank you, I'm really not in a bad situation at all in this sense; all I want is androgyny or just the minimization of sexual features, which can be accomplished to a reasonable extent just by getting to a low body weight. The T will be easier to work with afterwards.


The only regret I have in life was not transitioning earlier and it's not really a regret because I needed that time to figure myself out. I pretty much new I was going to get disowned by my family, but I am fond of the memories I had with them. Sometimes, I wish I had started transitioning when I was twelve or thirteen, but there isn't much point in worrying about the past, either. To each her own on her own journey.

As for always being able to stop, I thought that there was a chance that I was doing the wrong thing for an instant when I started estrogen. Considering I went on HRT for the psychological benefits rather than the physical benefits to minimize my dysphoria, I've never wanted to stop taking them. I thought that due to certain physical characteristics that I would have trouble passing, but I decided that going all the way would be a good decision since most of those characteristics are fading. It's almost as if the longer I'm on HRT, the more I want everything else to just fall in place physically. I don't regret losing my family so I could just be me and stop hiding and lying to myself. I think they would have lost me either way, but at least my decision kept me alive and sane.

I thought that originally I would just aim for androgyny, as well, which is currently where I am, but the WPATH Standards of Care do have a section on HRT for androgynous, in between, and gender-nonconforming people. 



> Medical Necessity of Hormone Therapy
> Feminizing/masculinizing hormone therapy—the administration of exogenous endocrine agents to induce feminizing or masculinizing changes—is a medically necessary intervention for many transsexual, transgender, and gender-nonconforming individuals with gender dysphoria (Newfield, Hart, Dibble, & Kohler, 2006; Pfäfflin & Junge, 1998). Some people seek maximum feminization/masculinization, while others experience relief with an androgynous presentation resulting from hormonal minimization of existing secondary sex characteristics (Factor & Rothblum, 2008). Evidence for the psychosocial outcomes of hormone therapy is summarized in Appendix D.


If I recall correctly, if you were to be going from FtA, half doses are used for HRT versus a full masculinization regimen. I hope that sheds some light on your possible options. Excessive cardio can also cease menses.


----------



## jeb

Doktorin Zylinder said:


> If I recall correctly, if you were to be going from FtA, half doses are used for HRT versus a full masculinization regimen. I hope that sheds some light on your possible options. Excessive cardio can also cease menses.


Dose is dependant on a number of factors, so there is no standard dose to half from. Additionally, people who start at half of what someone else does or twice what someone else does end up with the same results.


If someone wants to raise their testosterone levels to cease menstruating, they have to accept the more than likely possibility of any or all of the other changes.


----------



## Doktorin Zylinder

jeb said:


> Dose is dependant on a number of factors, so there is no standard dose to half from. Additionally, people who start at half of what someone else does or twice what someone else does end up with the same results.
> 
> 
> If someone wants to raise their testosterone levels to cease menstruating, they have to accept the more than likely possibility of any or all of the other changes.


For estrogen, my endocrinologist pretty much gives everyone the exact same dose to begin with because I thought since I was bigger, I might need a little more. Nope. It didn't turn out that way. There does seem to be something about giving the absolute minimum to affect change as to not produce negative side effects. He said he gave half the regular dose to androgynes. 

That's why I suggested the excessive cardio because testosterone works quite quickly and seems to have a harsher outcome.


----------



## jeb

Doktorin Zylinder said:


> For estrogen, my endocrinologist pretty much gives everyone the exact same dose to begin with because I thought since I was bigger, I might need a little more. Nope. It didn't turn out that way. There does seem to be something about giving the absolute minimum to affect change as to not produce negative side effects. He said he gave half the regular dose to androgynes.
> 
> That's why I suggested the excessive cardio because testosterone works quite quickly and seems to have a harsher outcome.


Estrogen and testosterone aren't the same thing and its not the same thing adding one hormone to bodies that normally produces the other hormone as doing tge opposite. And yes, doctors and endocrinologists are one of the factors in terms of dosing.


----------



## Doktorin Zylinder

jeb said:


> Estrogen and testosterone aren't the same thing and its not the same thing adding one hormone to bodies that normally produces the other hormone as doing tge opposite. And yes, doctors and endocrinologists are one of the factors in terms of dosing.


I'm going to take your word on this because it's by no means my area of expertise. I actually went in and edited my post before you quoted me because I hadn't read up far enough and had the incorrect impression that Metasentient was going for MtA. Trying to save my faux pas of not having the correct information, I just changed the MtA to FtA without deleting that particular part, which I should have. Oh, well. C'est la vie.


----------



## jeb

Doktorin Zylinder said:


> I'm going to take your word on this because it's by no means my area of expertise. I actually went in and edited my post before you quoted me because I hadn't read up far enough and had the incorrect impression that Metasentient was going for MtA. Trying to save my faux pas of not having the correct information, I just changed the MtA to FtA without deleting that particular part, which I should have. Oh, well. C'est la vie.


I'm certainly no expert either, just speaking in terms of my observation of quite a few trans guys from different areas, but I'm much less knowledgeable about trans women. I know that the information is not interchangeable in a lot of ways. I'll have to do more research as well.


----------



## Tetsuo Shima

It's more a spiritual thing for me than something physical. I've just accepted that I have big boobs and everyone who sees me offline sees me as a woman even though I have the personality of a little boy, which I hope will confuse the hell out of any man who decides to flirt with me. And yes, flat-chested women who get mistaken for men make me VERY jealous because I don't necessarily want balls but I definitely want a more streamlined body.


----------



## AmandaLee

This YouTube channel, owned by a Swedish trans woman, is an excellent resource for anything MtF. I would highly recommend it. 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeXkT3YeHoBIYBbQmJDw4Nw


----------



## Sara Torailles

Xahhakatar said:


> It's more a spiritual thing for me than something physical. I've just accepted that I have big boobs and everyone who sees me offline sees me as a woman even though I have the personality of a little boy, which I hope will confuse the hell out of any man who decides to flirt with me. And yes, flat-chested women who get mistaken for men make me VERY jealous because I don't necessarily want balls but I definitely want a more streamlined body.


I don't want to sound perverted when I say this but I don't know how to word it in such a way that it doesn't come off that way.

How big are your boobs?

If they're big enough to cause you back problems, you might be able to get a full top surgery under breast reduction surgery. My ex was a short woman (I think 5'2-5'4, she was puny and would have to get on her tippy toes to kiss me. I was 5'11, I think) who had a 34H cup size, and she was able to find something to get reduction covered. I'm not 100% sure if a top surgery is a super breast reduction or if more goes into it, but I would definitely check it out.There wouldn't be a problem with the amount of size you want to reduce, because I think there's just a minimum amount you have to go down, and I think since you want them completely gone, someone might be able to pull a few strings and get something done.


----------



## jeb

Sara Torailles said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't want to sound perverted when I say this but I don't know how to word it in such a way that it doesn't come off that way.
> 
> How big are your boobs?
> 
> If they're big enough to cause you back problems, you might be able to get a full top surgery under breast reduction surgery. My ex was a short woman who had a 34H cup size, and she was able to find something to get reduction covered. I'm not 100% sure if a top surgery is a super breast reduction or if more goes into it, but I would definitely check it out.There wouldn't be a problem with the amount of size you want to reduce, because I think there's just a minimum amount you have to go down, and I think since you want them completely gone, someone might be able to pull a few strings and get something done.


Yeah theres more to it, unfortunately.


----------



## Sara Torailles

jeb said:


> Yeah theres more to it, unfortunately.


Fuck. I thought I was onto something.

Maybe some strings could still be pulled? It is technically able to be deemed medically necessary under that circumstance, and it's essentially an alternate solution to a problem.

If only us transfeminine individuals could take some breast fat from those AFABs who don't want theirs.


----------



## jeb

Sara Torailles said:


> Fuck. I thought I was onto something.
> 
> Maybe some strings could still be pulled?


Probably depends on a lot of things. Some colleges have health insurance to cover these things... thats the best option that I've heard of. If streamlining is the main goal and not removal and masculinization, then reduction may be a good option, but transmen generally have more going on for all of the different types of top surgery.


----------



## Sara Torailles

jeb said:


> Probably depends on a lot of things. Some colleges have health insurance to cover these things... thats the best option that I've heard of. If streamlining is the main goal and not removal and masculinization, then reduction may be a good option, but transmen generally have more going on for all of the different types of top surgery.


Develop breast cancer, I guess?

I hate the system of trans care. :sad:


----------



## jeb

Sara Torailles said:


> If only us transfeminine individuals could take some breast fat from those AFABs who don't want theirs.


Trans medical exchange program. 

Sounds like an awesome idea :tongue:


----------



## Sara Torailles

jeb said:


> Trans medical exchange program.
> 
> Sounds like an awesome idea :tongue:


It's not possible, sadly. My body would reject their fat. Even though those tits were meant to be on my body. I deserve rocking tits.

(That's @Xahhakatar's preferred pronoun, correct? I know they have a neutral sign up, and I dunno if that means "I like 'they'" or it's like what I did when I was too afraid to have a female symbol.)


----------



## Doktorin Zylinder

Sara Torailles said:


> I hate the system of trans care. :sad:


One more reason I love living in a certain part of Canada. :happy:


----------



## AesSidhe

@Shahada there's a difference between having normal sexual fantasies of seeing yourself as your experienced sex in a relationship, and getting sexually turned on by thinking of yourself as another sex and jerking off on the thought of having a different sex and thinking about masturbating as another sex. In the one situation you get sexually aroused of being in a relationship or having sex as the sex you experience yourself as, in the other situation you're jerking off the member of the sex you so-called don't identify as, while thinking you're masturbating yourself as the other sex, and thinking about having the other sex. If you don't see what's inherently wrong about that and how that isn't a big red flag for diagnosing someone as transsexual then I don't know if there's any point in continuing this conversation. It's like a guy who gets turned on by seeing male-gay porn, but keeps on insisting he's 100% straight, it's just not true, the same counts with someone who claims to be a MtF transsexual but masturbates with their penis and enjoys it, it's just not true. Of course you can come with the argument that it's a tool to an end, but the the truth is that the use and end of the tool is a confirmation of their male identity 

So if you're going to disagree with this, please spare me some headache and don't reply on that paragraph, I'm not asking this to silence you, but because I already have a horrible headache and I've been crying for hours because of articles, posts and youtube videos that have been appearing everywhere I come on the internet about Jenner, and it has caused me great grieve reminding me of everything I've lost, and will never have. All I want is to continue my life without having to be reminded about my painful past. We'd also just entrench ourselves even more.

I do want to tell you why I 'thanked' your post, and this is because you made me remember that I'm treating everyone unfair because of the 'crimes' that multiple transsexual people have committed against me: How they backstabbed me, how they turned against me, while all I did was support them, help them, advice them, talk with their family, help their family support them, etc. The girl I talked about up there is only one of several who did this, and they made me run away and turn against the community and their lies. This doesn't mean that I'm against trans rights. Rather the opposite, as all of you have seen in past posts of mine: I'm one of the biggest advocates of trans rights on the forum. I believe very strongly in transsexual people, their rights and their lives, but I just haven't met a single one that is trustworthy on a personal level, because they've all been backstabbers, traitors and horrible people in general, (I'm talking about real life, not online, I'm just confirming this here before any of you feel or get insulted) but it's not because certain individuals have hurt me so deeply, that all of them are the same, I've just been unlucky and I'm very aware of this, but it makes me stay away of the community, which in itself is a very good thing. There's a whole wide World out there and if you'd just limit yourself to the community the World would be way too small.

The thing is that the community is often filled with angry people, angry against society, angry against the system, angry against school, their parents, cis gendered people, etc. This is very typical behavior in pre-op transsexuals as can be noted from the personal walls of several of the pre-op transsexuals on this forum. You can see them discussing how horrible the World is and how evil and unfair Cis Women or cis gendered people (in general) are (while in truth this isn't the case, but is just a figment of an exaggerated imagination). Often you see transsexual people clot together in small groups, locking themselves away of the outside 'cis' world, seeing it as evil and oppressive, but the truth is way more positive and amazing. There's actually a whole wide amazing World out there of which you can be a part, but these communities give this amazing bigger World no chance. This creates a situation where cis gendered people can't identify and relate with transsexual people, because they're so angry and hateful, because of the actions of a few, and this hate and anger can even be identified in several of the transgender people here on the forum.

Transgender people need to stop their Cis VS trans dialogue, as it's driving a wedge in between both, a wedge that shouldn't be there, and yet too often we can read trans extremists write things like "Dead to the Cis scum" on youtube videos and trans articles, which is only creating more misunderstanding and more distaste.

Once transsexual people start portraying themselves and get portrayed as multifaceted people who are more than a black and white transgender individual as they often portray themselves and are portrayed by the media, we will finally make leaps forward in acceptance. We need transgender people who talk passionately about the ecosystem, about their higher education, about their hobbies, about their passions, etc and finally escape of the typical 'what's between your legs?' 'when did you wear a dress for the first time?' etc. This is exactly why 2 days ago I was chosen as a backpacker World Traveler, former NGO volunteer, former professor assistant and former Disney employee to be part of an Australian medical conference to make multiple surgeries for transsexual people more widespread available in Australia (I'm not joking, on the conference there'll be 2 transsexual speakers present of who I'll be one), because Cis gendered people can relate to me and identify themselves with me, because I don't have a cis vs trans dialogue, because I don't carry hate for society, the system, school and so much more, and because I go through life with a smile.

We need more richly faceted people in the media and less black and wide people, this is why it hurts so much to see someone as Andreja Pejic (she comes from war torn Bosnia, fled to Australia, she was raised by her single parent mom, got discovered as an androgynous model while working for a McDonalds, rapidly became the most famous androgynous model in the World, transitioned, was the first transgender model that was moved from the male side of the model board to the female side of the model board, and is now a cover girl for one of the bigger make-up branches in the World. On top of this she has been a guest star in multiple TV shows amongst which as a guest judge for 'Next Top Model'-shows, on social media she's very active about the ecosystem and Nature, and when she shares pictures of herself with her friends she's just a normal girl at the beach or the pool or wherever. She's extremely relatable and Human and she comes from very humble beginnings. She actually is one of us, and that's what makes her so amazing, because it's so easy to identify with her both for cis as for transgender people) getting forced to self and public fund her documentary and seeing Jenner get a whole TV show and being payed for it ...

PS: I realize that the argument can be made that the reason why I can easily identify with Andreja is because I myself am relatively beautiful and that I have to acknowledge that I belong to the elite top 5% who was lucky with transition. In general this argument could stand and be true, yet even less lucky transsexuals find it easy to identify with Andreja and found themselves claiming Andreja for 'our' team even before she came out of the closet.


----------



## Sara Torailles

I will hold my actual response, but I will say, as someone who studied psychology and actually knows what in the world she's talking about when it comes to mental conditions, that the theories aforementioned are unfalsifiable. They do not hold any merit in psychology and are the equivalent of pseudoscience. They are not supported by evidence and mostly have been spouted by transphobes in the 1970's who wanted to keep trans people from transitioning at all. There was a lot of collateral damage with this, and David Reimer was one of those cases of collateral damage.

You are a woman if you keep your penis, chop it off, or scramble it to make a pussy. And masturbation with your penis does not make you magically not dysphoric, not MtF, or really a man, or "transgenderist" (which is a bigoted term), or some kind of genderqueer. End of story.


----------



## AesSidhe

@Sara Torailles Transgenderist is not a bigoted term, it is the correct term to describe people who live as their desired gender but don't want SRS. It's not because you don't like the term that it isn't an actual correct term.


----------



## Sara Torailles

AesSidhe said:


> @Sara Torailles Transgenderist is not a bigoted term, it is the correct term to describe people who live as their desired gender but don't want SRS. It's not because you don't like the term that it isn't an actual correct term.


... No, it's a slang by people who think trans people are deluded and following some kind of religion. That's where the -ist comes from.

It is not a proper term. Nobody I have witnessed in the LGBT community has used it to describe people who are non-op trans women. That's the first hint.

The way you use it is objectifying and treats women like their worth is in their genitals. Not to mention, the vast majority of trans men are non-op because there's nothing really that good for them. What are you gonna suggest to them? Just don't have a sex life, don't masturbate or else you're a creepy autoandrophilic fetishist and not "true trans"?


----------



## AesSidhe

Sara Torailles said:


> ... No, it's a slang by people who think trans people are deluded and following some kind of religion.
> 
> It is not a proper term. Nobody I have witnessed in the LGBT community has used it to describe people who are non-op trans women. That's the first hint.
> 
> The way you use it is objectifying and treats women like their worth is in their genitals. Not to mention, the vast majority of trans men are non-op because there's nothing really that good for them. What are you gonna suggest to them? Just don't have a sex life, don't masturbate or else you're a creepy autoandrophilic fetishist and not "true trans"?


The word transgenderist is actually often used in Dutch and these people are proud about being transgenderist, so again: it's not because you experience something as bad, that it actually is bad.


----------



## Sara Torailles

AesSidhe said:


> The word transgenderist is actually often used in Dutch and these people are proud about being transgenderist, so again: it's not because you experience something as bad, that it actually is bad.


... So what?

Why does anybody else's transition have to be on your terms? What the hell is so wrong about a woman who doesn't fit creepy fetishizing patriarchal standards being proud of her body?


----------



## AesSidhe

Sara Torailles said:


> ... So what?
> 
> Why does anybody else's transition have to be on your terms? What the hell is so wrong about a woman who doesn't fit creepy fetishizing patriarchal standards being proud of her body?


You just flip flopped your opinion xDDDD


----------



## Sara Torailles

AesSidhe said:


> You just flip flopped your opinion xDDDD


You'd do well to flip flop most of your shitty opinions on the issue.

Being non-op and *gasp* liking your body isn't a sin against nature. And transgenderist is still a shitty term made by the kind of shitty people on Susan's Place.


----------



## AesSidhe

Sara Torailles said:


> Being non-op and *gasp* liking your body isn't a sin against nature.


It isn't, it just means you're a transgenderist, which is a part of the transgender umbrella.


----------



## Sara Torailles

AesSidhe said:


> It isn't, it just means you're a transgenderist, which is a part of the transgender umbrella.


Really? The way you described them isn't at all positive. The only one you described clearly had other problems. 

And it's a creepy and fetishizing term. It's called a trans woman. Her surgery status or desire to have it is none of your fucking business.

Society would do well to consider that.


----------



## AesSidhe

Sara Torailles said:


> And it's a creepy and fetishizing term. It's called a trans woman. Her surgery status or desire to have it is none of your fucking business.


And if it was up to me I'd abolish all the transgender umbrella labels: no trans woman but woman, no trans man but man, no transsexual but just human, no transvestite but just person, no Drag Queen but performer, etc etc. Some of these terms these day do carry pride with them these days like for example Drag Queen which thanks to RuPaul's Drag Race has become a very glamorous thing, but many of the other terms I would just love to see abolished, but as long as people are labeling themselves, making new labels and labeling others, the correct term is still transgenderist and there's nothing fetishizing about it, because it's just a label, just like transsexual is a label, or dalmatian is a label for a white dog with small black dots, or Siamese is a label for a cat with crossed eyes originally from the area of Thailand (formerly known as Siam)


----------



## AesSidhe

Sara Torailles said:


> Really? The way you described them isn't at all positive. The only one you described clearly had other problems.


Since you edited your comment I need to reply on your new line now.

I've never described people who don't want the operation as bad, what I did do was talk about people who fantasize having a vagina while masturbating their penis, because they want to be their own girlfriend because they can't get an actual girlfriend, these are 2 different groups of people.

EDIT: which you then expanded into Blanchard, Autogynephilia, etc acting as if I was talking about these, which I didn't (although I have to admit that it was brushing the edge, but it wasn't with intend)


----------



## Sara Torailles

AesSidhe said:


> And if it was up to me I'd abolish all the transgender umbrella labels: no trans woman but woman, no trans man but man, no transsexual but just human, no transvestite but just person, no Drag Queen but performer, etc etc. Some of these terms these day do carry pride with them these days like for example Drag Queen which thanks to RuPaul's Drag Race has become a very glamorous thing, but many of the other terms I would just love to see abolished, but as long as people are labeling themselves, making new labels and labeling others, the correct term is still transgenderist and there's nothing fetishizing about it, because it's just a label, just like transsexual is a label, or dalmatian is a label for a white dog with small black dots, or Siamese is a label for a cat with crossed eyes originally from the area of Thailand (formerly known as Siam)


Nice try, but that doesn't change the fact you explicitly said that a transgender woman who enjoys her penis isn't _really_ a woman.


----------



## AesSidhe

Sara Torailles said:


> Nice try, but that doesn't change the fact you explicitly said that a transgender woman who enjoys her penis isn't _really_ a woman.


She isn't, she's a third sex, a two-spirit, a mahu, a sekrata, etc etc


----------



## Sara Torailles

AesSidhe said:


> She isn't, she's a third sex, a two-spirit, a mahu, a sekrata, etc etc


So are all trans women in those cultures.


----------



## The Chameleon

*Trans People*



Sara Torailles said:


> *And masturbation with your penis does not make you magically not dysphoric, not MtF, or really a man, or "transgenderist" (which is a bigoted term), or some kind of genderqueer. End of story.*


Bolding because this needs to be said.


----------



## AesSidhe

Sara Torailles said:


> So are all trans women in those cultures.


No, because in those cultures they originally didn't have SRS, those names are all for the in between stage, these names don't apply for people who did have SRS. I had conversations with Thai, Burmese and Indian people and all of them confirm the same thing. In Thailand Kathoey are people who are in between both genders, mostly seen as extremely effeminate gay boys, who often deliver a performance. Once they have their surgery they actually stop being Kathoey. In Burma you have the 'nat gadaws' who are again a performance by effeminate (gay) boys (but international observers would claim them to be transsexual, which would oversimplify the situation and depict it wrongly), and in India you have the Hijra which is an umbrela term like transgender, because Hijras can identify as male, female and as a third gender. When they keep their penis but dress and live as women (optionally while taking hormones if they're rich enough) they're named 'khusras'

As you can see, it's much more complicated than you might think


----------



## Sara Torailles

AesSidhe said:


> No, because in those cultures they originally didn't have SRS, those names are all for the in between stage, these names don't apply for people who did have SRS. I had conversations with Thai, Burmese and Indian people and all of them confirm the same thing. In Thailand Kathoey are people who are in between both genders, mostly seen as extremely effeminate gay boys, who often deliver a performance. Once they have their surgery they actually stop being Kathoey. In Burma you have the 'nat gadaws' who are again a performance by effeminate (gay) boys (but international observers would claim them to be transsexual, which would oversimplify the situation and depict it wrongly), and in India you have the Hijra which is an umbrela term like transgender, because Hijras can identify as male, female and as a third gender. When they keep their penis but dress and live as women (optionally while taking hormones if they're rich enough) they're named 'khusras'
> 
> As you can see, it's much more complicated than you might think


Yeah, because these cultures didn't have SRS, all trans women were considered in-between. It's a cultural construct with outdated information, and the distinctions simply aren't relevant or considerate to the current transgender community.

... Again, stop focusing on penis so much.

Your identity is male, you're male. Your identity is female, you're female. Your identity is genderqueer, you're genderqueer. Genitals? None of your business. End of story.


----------



## Playful Proxy

So....can I get some feedback on this video? It really irks me something mighty for some reason. Partially due to the whole "pronouns are just a social construct, you can identify as male and be called 'she'" What the actual. fuck. Pronouns are representative of gender, that's their actual job. I'm having a really hard time accepting the 'anything gendernonconforming = transgender'.... why does it need to be like that? Seriously?


----------



## AesSidhe

Sara Torailles said:


> Yeah, because these cultures didn't have SRS, all trans women were considered in-between. It's a cultural construct with outdated information, and the distinctions simply aren't relevant or considerate to the current transgender community.
> 
> ... Again, stop focusing on penis so much.
> 
> Your identity is male, you're male. Your identity is female, you're female. Your identity is genderqueer, you're genderqueer. Genitals? None of your business. End of story.


But liking your genitals is a part of your identity, no matter how much you want these people to be transsexual, they aren't. They belong to the transgender umbrella, but they aren't transsexual. They also have no right to pretend or fake like they can represent post-op transsexuals, because they can't, they are fundamentally a different group of people, and yet often these people are the ones who yell the loudest and try to represent everyone, while they don't.


----------



## AesSidhe

Playful Proxy said:


> So....can I get some feedback on this video? It really irks me something mighty for some reason. Partially due to the whole "pronouns are just a social construct, you can identify as male and be called 'she'" What the actual. fuck. Pronouns are representative of gender, that's their actual job. I'm having a really hard time accepting the 'anything gendernonconforming = transgender'.... why does it need to be like that? Seriously?


For example: Many extreme gayish men are called 'queens' and prefer being called 'she' by their friends and are often called 'girl' in a very pet-name like way, even if they totally identify as male. So yea I totally get this 

I only don't agree with his statement of not needing Dysphoria in order to be trans, of course this is a new generation of people who want to turn transsexuality in a life style choice and who want hormones to be something you can freely buy in your local fashion/make-up store, and in and on itself this is ok and I've seen it work very well in Thailand where all hormones are over the counter, without a need of prescriptions. This again is another reason why we should just abolish labels like transsexual, etc because they were names used to describe a mental disease, which isn't even seen as a mental disease anymore


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Born This Way (Reprise): The New Essentialism


----------



## AesSidhe

lolthevoidlol said:


> Born This Way (Reprise): The New Essentialism


I spend about 10 minutes reading that article and only got to half of it and then got to this part



> Gender identity has always been deeply connected to the “Born This Way” concepts of gender and sexual orientation. The qualifiers of “deep-seated”, “intrinstic” and, often, “immutable” added onto “sense of self” typically seem far more connected to saying “We can’t help it! This is fundamentally who we are! It’s totally completely inherent! Seriously! We were born this way!” *as a response* to social pressures suggesting that being trans or being queer is only permissible or understandable if it can’t be helped, or that cissexism and heterosexism only count as bigotry and unethical if they’re targeting an inherent, immutable, non-fluid aspect of someone’s being that was present from birth and they have no control over. Which is, to be frank, not only a totally ridiculous attitude to have about bigotry and why it’s not okay, but also a mentality that lends strength to the idea that trans and queer identities, bodies and behaviours are less preferable than cis and straight ones (and helps validate the underlying misogyny that fuels a great deal of cissexism). “GOD NO, of course no one would CHOOSE to be queer, or transsexual, or a woman. That would be repulsive and insane! But we simply can’t help having this tragic, deplorable condition.”


which then made me go to the end to see if by the end he/she's still holding on to this, but by the end he/she says this



> It was agency. It was self-determination. It was assertion.
> 
> I wasn’t born this way. That’s exactly what makes me trans.
> 
> And I’m proud of being trans.


Do you know what just happened? You just told me that I'm not trans, and you just told me that all my hardships, all my life, my loss of my family, loss of my old friends, etc etc, were all fake, and that I'm a fake transsexual ...

Apologies are in order ...


----------



## Stelmaria

AesSidhe said:


> Transwomen can have sex drives, just as women do, but when you're sexually turned on by your own body you're in a very dangerous level of clinical narcissism, and clinical narcissism is one of those other mental disorders that sometimes portrays itself as GID.





AesSidhe said:


> The most honorable thing Jenner can do now is to step down and vanish from the public eye.


Why do you act like an expert on all these things? Why do you speak over trans voices?

(rhetorical questions)


----------



## AesSidhe

Snowy Leopard said:


> Why do you act like an expert on all these things? Why do you speak over trans voices?
> 
> (rhetorical questions)


I'm not alone, want me to link you to dozens of transsexual people who share the same opinion? I actually already linked multiple articles where transsexual people voice their concerns and complaints about it (when it comes to the second statement, I'm about the apologize for the first statement in the topic I made about it, I just want more people to vote first  )


----------



## lolthevoidlol

AesSidhe said:


> I spend about 10 minutes reading that article and only got to half of it and then got to this part
> 
> 
> 
> which then made me go to the end to see if by the end he/she's still holding on to this, but by the end he/she says this
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know what just happened? You just told me that I'm not trans, and you just told me that all my hardships, all my life, my loss of my family, loss of my old friends, etc etc, were all fake, and that I'm a fake transsexual ...
> 
> Apologies are in order ...


try reading the whole thing


----------



## AesSidhe

lolthevoidlol said:


> try reading the whole thing


I'll try, and if I still feel the same way, apologies are in order, I'll even explain my own situation in short if desired


----------



## Stelmaria

AesSidhe said:


> I'm not alone, want me to link you to dozens of transsexual people who share the same opinion? I actually already linked multiple articles where transsexual people voice their concerns and complaints about it (when it comes to the second statement, I'm about the apologize for the first statement in the topic I made about it, I just want more people to vote first  )


The views I have read have been much more nuanced than what you wrote. It is true that all of those other things you mentioned are very real experiences of others. Yes the media is biased and hide what others have experienced, when telling Jenner's story. Yet this does not mean that it was a mistake for Jenner to be in the public spotlight and that is what many have said. Society has a long way to go yet (with respect to most progressive issues) and it is my opinion, that the more stories told, the better.

You don't have to quote or link anything now, but I would suggest that when trying to make the point you made earlier, to directly quote or link those who hold such a view.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

AesSidhe said:


> I'll try, and if I still feel the same way, apologies are in order, I'll even explain my own situation in short if desired


I'm happy to discuss the perspective once you've actually understood it. Because the take away message is simply that gender and therefor trans identities are more complicated than simply biology. That just because something is in large part a social/individual construction and understanding doesn't make it invalid. That the current biological essentialism is just as harmful as any other essentialism. That looking at this issue from a more holistic perspective (including the pieces of us that were "born this way" but not making it only about them) we can actually push for true change and acceptance. That all trans identities can and should be respected.

Anyone who walks away from the article going "this invalidates me and I deserve an apology" hasn't understood it and it's hard to have a conversation then.


----------



## AesSidhe

Snowy Leopard said:


> The views I have read have been much more nuanced than what you wrote. All of those other things you mentioned are very real experiences of others. Yes the media is biased and hide what others have experienced, when telling Jenner's story. Yet this does not mean that it was a mistake for Jenner to be in the public spotlight and that is what many have said.
> 
> You don't have to quote or link anything now, but I would suggest that when trying to make the point you made earlier, to directly quote or link those who hold such a view.


I did, I actually posted 2 or 3 links, and the whole #MyVanityFairCover is about this very topic

It's just amazing people like Andreja Pejic are doomed to pay their own documentary while they are amazing multifaceted people who come from war torn Yugoslavia and were ably to work themselves up to international model. It's just, Andreja would have been so much better for awareness and identification, especially since she's of our generation, who'll be the leaders of tomorrow, not Jenner her generation, who'll soon be retired, and yet Jenner gets payed for it and Andreja has to self and public fund everything. it's just not right


----------



## AesSidhe

lolthevoidlol said:


> Anyone who walks away from the article going "this invalidates me and I deserve an apology" hasn't understood it and it's hard to have a conversation then.


That's not a good way to start a conversation and is quite bigoted, you're literately saying: "confirm to my opinion, or I won't talk to you"

I'm almost done readying, I'm a slow reader, so I think 5 or 10 more minutes, I'm sorry for taking so long


----------



## lolthevoidlol

AesSidhe said:


> That's not a good way to start a conversation and is quite bigoted, you're literately saying: "confirm to my opinion, or I won't talk to you"
> 
> I'm almost done readying, I'm a slow reader, so I think 5 or 10 more minutes, I'm sorry for taking so long


There is an objective message the author is putting out, and if you read it wrong, well, you're wrong so...

If the debate is on whether the author expressed that message effectively that's different, but still requires understanding what the author was trying to say in the first place. To say that the end result of that article meant you would be called "not a real trans person" is simply incorrect.


----------



## Stelmaria

AesSidhe said:


> I did, I actually posted 2 or 3 links, and the whole #MyVanityFairCover is about this very topic


Thanks for posting those links. I notice they are the few stories that managed to make it to the media. As you've probably noticed, the media tends to report somewhat polarised points of view and there are many other nuanced voices that are unheard. But we're on the internet, so many of those voices can be heard in other ways.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

AesSidhe said:


> That's not a good way to start a conversation and is quite bigoted, you're literately saying: "confirm to my opinion, or I won't talk to you"
> 
> I'm almost done readying, I'm a slow reader, so I think 5 or 10 more minutes, I'm sorry for taking so long


Also, it's not a good way to start convos by going "I don't need to read this or understand it to feel offended and demand apologies". It might be bigoted to say "you must apologize to me because I have decided to interpret this thing this way and won't listen to anyone else's take on it. not that I bothered to read or understand it in the first place, that doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is my opinion and dammit you owe me an apology". ya think?


----------



## AesSidhe

lolthevoidlol said:


> Also, it's not a good way to start convos by going "I don't need to read this or understand it to feel offended and demand apologies". It might be bigoted to say "you must apologize to me because I have decided to interpret this thing this way and won't listen to anyone else's take on it. not that I bothered to read or understand it in the first place, that doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is my opinion and dammit you owe me an apology". ya think?


But I did read a big part of it and the conclusion at that time. With a good article one needs only read the intro and the ending to know what it's about, this is a core rule in academical papers. Of course I know this isn't an academical paper and so I'm reading its center, which is only getting worse as I continue. The writer at some point realizes that they're giving power to what they call 'cissexist feminists' and decides to do a shout out to them and telling them fuck you and other stuff. This is not the correct way of asking to be taken seriously


----------



## lolthevoidlol

AesSidhe said:


> But I did read a big part of it and the conclusion at that time. With a good article one needs only read the intro and the ending to know what it's about, this is a core rule in academical papers. Of course I know this isn't an academical paper and so I'm reading its center, which is only getting worse as I continue. The writer at some point realizes that they're giving power to what they call 'cissexist feminists' and decides to do a shout out to them and telling them fuck you and other stuff. This is not the correct way of asking to be taken seriously


Right... look, if you come in with a list of critiques on the actual content of the ideas presented in the article we can talk, but if it's going to be nothing but "my opinion on formatting and vocab choice and butthurt and apology demands" then I'm just going to step away from conversing.


----------



## AesSidhe

@lolthevoidlol I'm finally done reading the whole article and in essence I'll explain the whole article in very very short for everyone who doesn't have the time to read it. The writer actually says:

"Ohh look there's scientific evidence that transsexual people even before HRT have different brains, but hey this brain test wasn't done on me, so I'm not sure if I'm really trans, so let my write this huge wall of text telling you how I feel about it, and how I don't need actual scientific fact to validate myself"

Congratulations I just wasted an hour or something reading one big argumentum ad ignorantiam


----------



## lolthevoidlol

AesSidhe said:


> @_lolthevoidlol_ I'm finally done reading the whole article and in essence I'll explain the whole article in very very short for everyone who doesn't have the time to read it. The writer actually says:
> 
> "Ohh look there's scientific evidence that transsexual people even before HRT have different brains, but hey this brain test wasn't done on me, so I'm not sure if I'm really trans, so let my write this huge wall of text telling you how I feel about it, and how I don't need actual scientific fact to validate myself"
> 
> Congratulations I just wasted an hour or something reading one big argumentum ad ignorantiam


good talk


----------



## Sara Torailles

Playful Proxy said:


> So....can I get some feedback on this video? It really irks me something mighty for some reason. Partially due to the whole "pronouns are just a social construct, you can identify as male and be called 'she'" What the actual. fuck. Pronouns are representative of gender, that's their actual job. I'm having a really hard time accepting the 'anything gendernonconforming = transgender'.... why does it need to be like that? Seriously?


It's taking a more gender-critical approach to the whole issue. You know, actually gender-critical, not TERF "gender-critical".

Basically what he's saying is that we have the ability to shape gender entirely as a society and say what that means for us. Right now we have a bunch of boxes like man and woman and bigender, but what if we approached the entirety of gender identity like Build-A-Bear or pizza? What if gender was like space with a bunch of stars in a galaxy?

He's theorizing what most people experience isn't a full alignment with a set gender identity. For example, what most cis women and trans women experience is an understanding on a continuum that is close enough to the metaphysical point that we see as woman. Nobody fits that initial metaphysical point 100% except the first "woman" to exist. Which is exactly why I take issue with the "true transsexual" narrative. We're looking how close people fit this fixed point when the point is supposed to stretch to fit _us_. "Woman" is a word to describe a metaphysical cluster of points within a spatial net.

If it was up to me, I would erase the entire concept of transgender because the concept itself describes what society thinks the metaphysical points should start at. It doesn't describe where the metaphysical points are. Gender is in your soul. It isn't what other people see. It's you.


----------



## AesSidhe

@lolthevoidlol That being said I promised to tell more about myself. 

One week before I was born my mom had a disease which made all the blood she gave to me via the umbilical cord poisonous, which damaged all my muscles (making them shorter and thinner) and damaged my brain. My parents were informed that most likely I would die, but by 'miracle' they found a donor just in time to replace all my blood, but the damage that was done, was done and would never be reversed, but they didn't know this until I was older. 

By the age of 3-4 I started showing my first non-gender conforming behavior, tried to cut of my own genitals (I failed because it hurt too much) and being forced into boy toilets made me have panic attacks, which made the kindergarten teachers allow me to go to the girl toilets. By the age of 6 my kindergarten teacher pulled the alarm bell as she realized that I was falling behind in many normal developments: I couldn't speak (I only learned to speak by the age of 10), my balance was that of a child of 2, and all my motorical functions on the right side of my body were dysfunctional. So my parents send me to many neurological specialists who ran many tests on me, amongst which several brain scans. What they found was that a medium sized part on the left side of my brain (accidentally in one of the male brain centers, but they would only admit this to me later in life and my parents have always claimed they didn't know, while I know of other sources that they DID know, but chose to keep it secret) was damaged and partially dead, what they also noticed was that since the damaged had occurred before birth and shortly after birth, my brains (like often happens when brain damage occurs within the first year of life) also showed more development on the right side, most likely in an attempt to fulfill functions that had been damaged at birth. Purely coincidental on the right side of my brain, my brains looked more like that of a girl.

By the age of 7, while still being dragged from doctor to doctor, research to research, my elementary school teacher forbade me to follow my girl friends to the girl toilets and I was forced to go to the boy toilets where I got bullied: "eeeuuuuw there's a girl in the toilets" etc. My 2 brothers were the same always teasing and bullying me when we were watching TV and saw commercials of girl toys that those were the once I wanted, but wouldn't get. This led to me being highly suicidal at the age of 7, even attempting to hang myself, which got myself send to one of the best child psychiatrists in the country. After over a year of diagnosing and attempting to help me he eventually told my parents: "Because of lack of being ably to verbally communicate with this child, I'm unable to be ably to confirm what is actually going on with your child, but there's one thing that I do know, and that is that this child does not identify with their own body." (years later he met my dad, who's the only person who accepts me a little bit, by accident in a store and asked my dad what was going on with me, and when my dad told me that I was transitioning the therapist begged my dad to apologize to me that he couldn't have done anything more for me, and that I had to go through all of life like I did, while he should have helped me at the age of 7)

I can continue the whole story, but as you can see right there "I was born this way", I didn't choose this, it is how I AM, it's not a choice, no matter how much the writer of that article wants it to be. Because if being transsexual is a 'choice' than what does it make me? A form of 'intersexed'? Or are you going to label me a mentally handicapped person, while I'm a perfectly functional person that through years of training learned to hide all of her handicaps, is mostly stealth, did university, worked for Disney, did international volunteer work, worked as a professor assistant and is now traveling the World as a backpacker.


----------



## AesSidhe

AmandaLee said:


> If someone sincerely believed they were a dog and wanted people to acknowledge their identity as a dog, do you think they should be accommodated, or do you think they should receive treatment aimed to cure them of this delusion? Serious question here. How far should society go to accommodate someone?


I would love to see studies on their brains to see if this is an actual condition


----------



## AmandaLee

AesSidhe said:


> I would love to see studies on their brains to see if this is an actual condition


I doubt it'll be included as an official diagnosis in the DSM anytime soon, but the closest you can get is probably a case of clinical lycanthropy. But the question remains, do you think people should accept and accommodate for this condition and regard it as a valid sense of identity?


----------



## AesSidhe

AmandaLee said:


> I doubt it'll be included as an official diagnosis in the DSM anytime soon, but the closest you can get is probably a case of clinical lycanthropy. But the question remains, do you think people should accept and accommodate for this condition and regard it as a valid sense of identity?


You know (and this might be controversial) the very fact why transsexuality is more accepted and more understood then things like trans-animals, etc is because transsexual people actually show an increase of productivity in society once they're helped with their 'problems'. Technology within the next 10-15 years will also be advancing enough to grow uteruses, ovaries and vaginas with their own DNA, making it possible for them to naturally reproduce.

So except for the beauty conformity leads to acceptance, there's a second layer of economical productivity that leads to acceptance. If transsexual people would only be like a parasite on society, people wouldn't be as accepting of it, but transsexual people are just like other people economically productive, which makes them normal assets to society.

Now when you look at trans animals, accommodating them in their needs would lead to a decrease in economical productivity, which leads to a drop of acceptance. Also there's no 'beauty' conformity of the trans animal, because the trans animal will never be a dog nor look like one.

So I sadly enough (for them) can't imagine them living freely in the World, but I could imagine them being accommodated inside mental institutes, where nurses and therapists can accommodate them in their needs, and in cases where family wants to accommodate them, they are kept and taken care of by their family.

It most be noted that this is a Trans People topic, and that if you want to talk about trans animals it's best to start your own topic about it


----------



## AmandaLee

AesSidhe said:


> You know (and this might be controversial) the very fact why transsexuality is more accepted and more understood then things like trans-animals, etc is because transsexual people actually show an increase of productivity in society once they're helped with their 'problems'. Technology within the next 10-15 years will also be advancing enough to grow uteruses, ovaries and vaginas with their own DNA, making it possible for them to naturally reproduce.
> 
> So except for the beauty conformity leads to acceptance, there's a second layer of economical productivity that leads to acceptance. If transsexual people would only be like a parasite on society, people wouldn't be as accepting of it, but transsexual people are just like other people economically productive, which makes them normal assets to society.
> 
> Now when you look at trans animals, accommodating them in their needs would lead to a decrease in economical productivity, which leads to a drop of acceptance. Also there's no 'beauty' conformity of the trans animal, because the trans animal will never be a dog nor look like one.
> 
> So I sadly enough (for them) can't imagine them living freely in the World, but I could imagine seeing them being accommodated inside mental institutes, where nurses and therapists can accommodate them in their needs, and in cases where family wants to accommodate them, they are kept and taken care of by their family.
> 
> It most be noted that this is a Trans People topic, and that if you want to talk about trans animals it's best to start your own topic about it


I'm not speaking strictly about so-called "transanimals" or whatever they want to call themselves, and I don't believe that it's even a real condition aside from psychosis. And to be fair, I don't see them much at all outside of Tumblr, and I doubt the majority of them are seriously mentally ill, at least not to the point of having delusions.

However, we seem to agree that accommodating these so-called transanimals and enabling them to live like animals rather than people would not be the right approach, and this brings us to the question: where do we draw the line as far as self-identification goes? What's a valid identity and what isn't? Everyone has a line, people simply draw it at different places. I've seen some suggest that if one _feels_ like x, it means that one _is_ x, without fitting any kind of objective criteria for x. This is problematic, because it makes x arbitrary, and if something is arbitrary, it's bound to attract a less than serious crowd.


----------



## AesSidhe

AmandaLee said:


> I'm not speaking strictly about so-called "transanimals" or whatever they want to call themselves, and I don't believe that it's even a real condition aside from psychosis. And to be fair, I don't see them much at all outside of Tumblr, and I doubt the majority of them are seriously mentally ill, at least not to the point of having delusions.
> 
> However, we seem to agree that accommodating these so-called transanimals and enabling them to live like animals rather than people would not be the right approach, and this brings us to the question: where do we draw the line as far as self-identification goes? What's a valid identity and what isn't? Everyone has a line, people simply draw it at different places. I've seen some suggest that if one _feels_ like x, it means that one _is_ x, without fitting any kind of objective criteria for x. This is problematic, because it makes x arbitrary, and if something is arbitrary, it's bound to attract a less than serious crowd.


And this is exactly why there needs to be scientific empirical prove to base yourself on, which exists in the case of transsexuals and which is why I said that I would love to see studies on transanimals their brains. These lines aren't and SHOULDN'T be drawn by individuals based on their upbringing, religion, cultural background, etc. No, their existence and instant (mandatory) acceptance is totally based on scientific empirical data, this is why the big article that Void posted is so problematic because the writer of that article tries to lay the scientific empirical prove besides them and say: "because I say I'm a woman, I'm a woman" and like I said before this is the same argumentum ad ignorantiam as "I believe in God, so God exists.", that's not how you hold correct scientific debates.

This is why you, I, the guy next door, etc can't decide any of this, because it isn't arbitrary, it isn't up for discussion, there actually is scientific prove out there, and that's why I would love to see some scientific studies on transanimals and their brains to see if this is an actual condition or not


----------



## Sara Torailles

AesSidhe said:


> The truth is that the writer and you (since you agreed with the writer) did devalue people who experience the 'classical' story, while people as Torai systematically attack people with the 'classical' story as Trans Elitist scum, and this is just wrong. You (used as a group) blame people with a 'classical' story for all your problems, while at the same time favoring your own story, putting it on a pillar and then demonizing and criticizing people with a 'classical' story as fake and artificial constructs in order to appease the cisgendered masses, and this just isn't true


Ohnonononono. Don't you twist what I said. My beef is with _you_ and _your_ attitude, not people who have the classic story.

You hold 1st class transsexuals up on a pedestal because they're the only one whose pain you choose to identify with, because they're like you. That's why you like Andreja. Because she's just like you.

That's why you hate Caitlyn. Not because she's rich and lucky, and not because she lived a life of privilege...

But because you percieve her as belittling your identity simply by living and calling herself a woman. You built your identity around the pain you've experienced and subsequently isolated everyone who hasn't experienced quite the same pain from your special little club. Oh, you'll use the proper pronouns on those late-in-life transitioners because it's polite to, but you'll never really _believe_ it. 

You might see an old "hun" when you look at Caitlyn.

But you know what I saw? A girl who was infinitely calmer than she once was, who was relieved that she could finally be herself, and who was a better person for it. It's easy when you look into people's hearts rather than their outward appearance.

It's sad when you identify with your own pain so much that you've lost the ability to look into people's hearts and see that what they feel is just as valid as what you feel.

_That's_ what I hate. Not your classical story.


----------



## AesSidhe

Sara Torailles said:


> Ohnonononono. Don't you twist what I said. My beef is with _you_ and _your_ attitude, not people who have the classic story.
> 
> You hold 1st class transsexuals up on a pedestal because they're the only one whose pain you choose to identify with, because they're like you. That's why you like Andreja. Because she's just like you.
> 
> That's why you hate Caitlyn. Not because she's rich and lucky, and not because she lived a life of privilege...
> 
> But because you percieve her as belittling your identity simply by living and calling herself a woman. You built your identity around the pain you've experienced and subsequently isolated everyone who hasn't experienced quite the same pain from your special little club. Oh, you'll use the proper pronouns on those late-in-life transitioners because it's polite to, but you'll never really _believe_ it.
> 
> You might see an old "hun" when you look at Caitlyn.
> 
> But you know what I saw? A girl who was infinitely calmer than she once was, who was relieved that she could finally be herself, and who was a better person for it. It's easy when you look into people's hearts rather than their outward appearance.
> 
> It's sad when you identify with your own pain so much that you've lost the ability to look into people's hearts and see that what they feel is just as valid as what you feel.
> 
> _That's_ what I hate. Not your classical story.


Again you are wrong, it is well known through stories of Caitlyn Jenner her mom that Caitlyn used to dress up as a girl when she was a child and used the make-up of her mom, this makes her a 1st class transsexual. Also I don't only hold 1st class transsexuals on a pillar but also 2nd class transsexuals, and 3th class transsexuals who experience dysphoria.

This is you twisting my words not the other way around 

Edit: maybe you should learn to look in people their hearts, because you clearly don't see what's in mine


----------



## Sara Torailles

AesSidhe said:


> Again you are wrong, it is well known through stories of Caitlyn Jenner her mom that Caitlyn used to dress up as a girl when she was a child and used the make-up of her mom, this makes her a 1st class transsexual. Also I don't only hold 1st class transsexuals on a pillar but also 2nd class transsexuals, and 3th class transsexuals who experience dysphoria.
> 
> This is you twisting my words not the other way around


Except you have a personal definition of dysphoria which doesn't support itself based on scientific evidence. You're not reading the DSM V when making that definition, you're implanting your own subjective experience.

In many places, I've seen you say that people without genital dysphoria aren't real women. This is not supported by the DSM. Dysphoria can exclude itself to secondary sex characteristics and one can still identify strongly as female without any male bent. It's actually not all that uncommon. Usually these people treat their genitals as girl bits to relieve their social dysphoria surrounding them.

Not only that, I've seen you imply on multiple occasions that Caitlyn's womanhood was not real and that she would "switch back".

I see exactly what's in there. Envy begets isolation begets exclusion. I'm no stranger to this. I've seen it a thousand times. And fuck your fake-ass, passive-aggressive smile. I know that well, too. If you're going to insult me, don't hide behind it.


----------



## AesSidhe

Sara Torailles said:


> Except you have a personal definition of dysphoria which doesn't support itself based on scientific evidence. You're not reading the DSM V when making that definition, you're implanting your own subjective experience.
> 
> In many places, I've seen you say that people without genital dysphoria aren't real women. This is not supported by the DSM. Dysphoria can exclude itself to secondary sex characteristics and one can still identify strongly as female without any male bent. It's actually not all that uncommon. Usually these people treat their genitals as girl bits to relieve their social dysphoria surrounding them.


Things actually get very simple once you deconstruct the labels and look at the individual meanings of all the labels.

*Transgender*: is used as the umbrella term, it uses the word trans, which refers to transition, which refers to going from one place to another, changing from one thing into an other. The second word is gender, which is the 'traditional' 'role' of a sex in society.

so it's very clear why this is the umbrella term, because gender is disconnected from sex, so even a person who presents as male, identifies as male, identifies with their genitals, but identifies themselves as being part of the female gender is part of the transgender umbrella.

*Transsexual*: this is a subgroup of the transgender umbrella, it uses the word trans, which refers to transition, which refers to going from one place to another, changing from one thing into an other. The second word is sexual, referring to sex, as in your sexual organ. The two words together make it clear that these individuals are changing their sexual organs from the one to the other.

Simply deconstructing the words and looking at their meaning already clearly shows that a transgender that keeps their penis isn't transsexual.

As earlier stated stop hijacking the word 'transsexual' when you aren't transitioning your actual sex. There's a word for them, like I've already said before, which is transgenderist, and there's nothing wrong with being a transgenderist.

I do want to clarify a question you've been asking many times and I didn't answer yet: Transmen and women who want the surgery but feel like the current techniques aren't good enough for them are obviously transsexual, they're just waiting hopefully for advancements in technology


----------



## Sara Torailles

AesSidhe said:


> Things actually get very simple once you deconstruct the labels and look at the individual meanings of all the labels.
> 
> *Transgender*: is used as the umbrella term, it uses the word trans, which refers to transition, which refers to going from one place to another, changing from one thing into an other. The second word is gender, which is the 'traditional' 'role' of a sex in society.
> 
> so it's very clear why this is the umbrella term, because gender is disconnected from sex, so even a person who presents as male, identifies as male, identifies with their genitals, but identifies themselves as being part of the female gender is part of the transgender umbrella.
> 
> *Transsexual*: this is a subgroup of the transgender umbrella, it uses the word trans, which refers to transition, which refers to going from one place to another, changing from one thing into an other. The second word is sexual, referring to sex, as in your sexual organ. The two words together make it clear that these individuals are changing their sexual organs from the one to the other.
> 
> Simply deconstructing the words and looking at their meaning already clearly shows that a transgender that keeps their penis isn't transsexual.
> 
> As earlier stated stop hijacking the word 'transsexual' when you aren't transitioning your actual sex. There's a word for them, like I've already said before, which is transgenderist, and there's nothing wrong with being a transgenderist.
> 
> I do want to clarify a question you've been asking many times and I didn't answer yet: Transmen and women who want the surgery but feel like the current techniques aren't good enough for them are obviously transsexual, they're just waiting hopefully for advancements in technology


And what I'm saying is that you need to learn some real fucking psychology and diagnostic manuals before spouting your opinions...

And by the way.

Secondary *sexual* characteristics.

And of course there's nothing wrong with being a transgenderist, "they're just not real women". It's that kind of pressure that you bring to them that leads to an unnecessary surgery. Because you invalidate their womanhood if they don't have it.


----------



## Jennywocky

Sara Torailles said:


> And what I'm saying is that you need to learn some real fucking psychology and diagnostic manuals before spouting your opinions...
> 
> And by the way.
> 
> Secondary *sexual* characteristics.
> 
> And of course there's nothing wrong with being a transgenderist, "they're just not real women". It's that kind of pressure that you bring to them that leads to an unnecessary surgery. Because you invalidate their womanhood if they don't have it.


The DSM-IV no longer used the term "transsexual," it focuses on the Gender Identity Disorder, I think.

And the DSM-V, the newest release of the diagnostic manual, further changes that to Gender Dypshoria which removes stigma from the patient and instead focuses on circumstances.

Personally, I see a use in having a word where people pursue modifications to body (chemical and physical) as opposed to not; I don't see it as a matter of stigma or diminishing another's choices in life, it's just so that we can have clarity when we discuss said topics. I really don't care whether someone has surgery or not. I also would prefer for people not to feel compelled to change their bodies if they are perfectly happy with it. 

Where is all this "true transsexual" junk coming from? Aside from being clear when we speak (which I noted above), why do these labels matter? I feel like I'm listening to old-school Blanchard binary theory (autogeniphyliac vs homosexual M2F'ism) versus how it's being approached today. Our community already has enough problems dealing with broader cultural issues and the TERF group, why are we tearing each other down?


----------



## AesSidhe

I'm sorry for replying a bit slower, internet crashed for a moment



Sara Torailles said:


> I see exactly what's in there. Envy begets isolation begets exclusion. I'm no stranger to this. I've seen it a thousand times. And fuck your fake-ass, passive-aggressive smile. I know that well, too. If you're going to insult me, don't hide behind it.


Since you edited your post I'll have to address your addition: 

Envy? yes, I admitted this in my original post, you don't know this because you can look in my heart, but because I honestly stated this

Isolation? No, I'm out there in the World, traveling and helping, I meet more people than I ever imagined I'd ever meet, and they're all warm amazing people with rich stories and life experiences

Exclusion? Exclusion of what? Hell I have random men flirting with me on the street, bars and discos. People go out of their way to meet me, and when people meet me they tell me that I have this warm energy that feeds them and brings them happiness, which makes them want to go on adventures and see the World. My friends (internationally) also call me on my phone just to get my opinion and advice.

"Fake-ass, passive-aggressive smile"? Uhm unless you can actually read my mind, or hacked my webcam or any of those things you can't know this, it's just an assumption of yours. To be honest I was really just smiling, because I want you to sit down, take a breath and calm down, and maybe stop trying to insult me, but if trying to insult me helps you calm down, then sure, go ahead (I actually avoided putting a smile there, because you probably would have experienced it as passive-aggressive, but I really want you to calm down, even if that means you have to try to insult me as much as you can)

I'm not trying to insult you, you're in my friend list, we had this big discussion in PMs when I just came to the forum and after that discussion I came to respect and like you, and I cheered when I saw that you had changed your gender neutral symbol to female, and it made me happy when I heard positive stories about you and your therapist from Stray.

I'm not here to get you, I'm not here to insult you, I see you as a friend, a friend who's currently angry, but still a friend, and you know: being angry is ok, so if yelling at me and trying to insult me helps, then go ahead.

I have to go sleep now, but I hope you'll at least have a good remainder of your day 

PS: Their womanhood is not invalidated, because their womanhood exists in their gender which is female, they just don't have a female sex, because they're not transsexual


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

AesSidhe said:


> Often we will find conservative people saying: "OMG Transsexual people are so mentally ill that they think they can say: "I'm a woman", then HELL starting from today I'm a DOG!!!" but the truth is that transsexual people don't THINK they're women or men, they actually are women and men, with scientific empirical prove backing them up. The stance the writer takes and lodges onto the term transsexual is extremely dangerous, because the writer actually distances themselves from the scientific empirical prove and takes a stance of: "because I say I'm a woman, I'm a woman", this is the same argumentum ad ignorantiam as: "I believe in God, so God exists". No, just no, that's not how you have actual scientific correct discussions, that's a non-argument, you can't do that. It's not because tomorrow I say: "I'm an African American" that that magically turns me into an African American. That's not how things work.


Thank tumblr for that image, love.


Also what is this bullshit about true transsexuals? You either are or aren't. The end.


----------



## AmandaLee

Jetstream Aya said:


> Thank tumblr for that image, love.
> 
> 
> Also what is this bullshit about true transsexuals? You either are or aren't. The end.


It's the same as primary transsexual, a term coined by Harry Benjamin in 1966, referring to a transsexual individual whose transsexuality was already evident during childhood.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

AmandaLee said:


> It's the same as primary transsexual, a term coined by Harry Benjamin in 1966, referring to a transsexual individual whose transsexuality was already evident during childhood.


Wait, wait there a second. Primary transsexuals? This isn't medic school. Transsexuals are transsexuals, no matter when or how they realize it.


----------



## AmandaLee

Jetstream Aya said:


> Wait, wait there a second. Primary transsexuals? This isn't medic school. Transsexuals are transsexuals, no matter when or how they realize it.


You asked where the term came from, and I answered.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

AmandaLee said:


> You asked where the term came from, and I answered.


I asked about "true" transsexuals.


----------



## AmandaLee

Jetstream Aya said:


> I asked about "true" transsexuals.


...

Read what I wrote again.

EDIT: They're exactly the same thing, as stated by Dr. Harry Benjamin. This is 60's terminology. I never said it was current or politically correct. I just thought I'd mention where the term came from, and what it means.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

AmandaLee said:


> ...
> 
> Read what I wrote again.
> 
> EDIT: They're exactly the same thing, as stated by Dr. Harry Benjamin. This is 60's terminology. I never said it was current or politically correct. I just thought I'd mention where the term came from, and what it means.


Be more clear next time. I don't guess when these terms come from.


----------



## AmandaLee

Jetstream Aya said:


> Be more clear next time. I don't guess when these terms come from.


I don't see how I could express myself any clearer, but whatever. 

I see no point in taking this further. At least now you know (hopefully) where the term comes from, and that a forum member didn't make it up.


----------



## conscius

Sara Torailles said:


> *Speaking of the Olympics, there are people who say Caitlyn Jenner should give up her men's competition medals if she is serious about being a woman.*
> 
> Yeah... If you, as a society, force a gal like her to be a man and she kicks your fucking ass at it, don't get whiny and butthurt that she did.


lol are they serious about that? I don't think s/he was doing any treatments at the time....


----------



## Sara Torailles

conscius said:


> lol are they serious about that? I don't think s/he was doing any treatments at the time....


It was when the whole Caitlyn Jenner thing exploded and the transgender safe space on reddit got posted on by people who really didn't seem to understand what the hell was going on. This wasn't some troll who made a throwaway, either. This was someone who posted a fair amount in other subreddits. It was something I'd easily expect from the Neo Nazi subreddit base, but this guy didn't seem to have any history on that or the gender "critical" subreddits, two large groups of people who regularly invade trans subreddits to say awful things.


----------



## AesSidhe

Sara Torailles said:


> It was when the whole Caitlyn Jenner thing exploded and the transgender safe space on reddit got posted on by people who really didn't seem to understand what the hell was going on. This wasn't some troll who made a throwaway, either. This was someone who posted a fair amount in other subreddits. It was something I'd easily expect from the Neo Nazi subreddit base, but this guy didn't seem to have any history on that or the gender "critical" subreddits, two large groups of people who regularly invade trans subreddits to say awful things.


The Olympics committee already replied on that several weeks ago, and said that they'll never revoke the medals, so no need to worry about it


----------



## Sara Torailles

AesSidhe said:


> The Olympics committee already replied on that several weeks ago, and said that they'll never revoke the medals, so no need to worry about it


Good on them.

I'm actually pleasantly surprised that the Girl Scouts are allowing transgender girls in their troops. I always wanted to be a Girl Scout when I was a kid.


----------



## Amphoteric

Sara Torailles said:


> Good on them.
> 
> I'm actually pleasantly surprised that the Girl Scouts are allowing transgender girls in their troops. I always wanted to be a Girl Scout when I was a kid.


I wonder if the same applies to transgender boys being allowed in Boy Scouts. It's one of those childhood experiences I wish I could've had.


----------



## Sara Torailles

Amphoteric said:


> I wonder if the same applies to transgender boys being allowed in Boy Scouts. It's one of those childhood experiences I wish I could've had.


Hate to break it to you... The Boy Scouts policies are homophobic as hell, and if someone's homophobic in America, you can bet 90% that they're also gonna be transphobic because bigots like that can't differentiate the two for some reason.


----------



## Amphoteric

Sara Torailles said:


> Hate to break it to you... The Boy Scouts policies are homophobic as hell, and if someone's homophobic in America, you can bet 90% that they're also gonna be transphobic because bigots like that can't differentiate the two for some reason.


Yeah, my expectations were not that high. Oh well...it is essentially a cult, but I strangely feel regret over missing out on that still.

Still good on the girls, though. I'm happy about that.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Only issue with Girl Scouts is that....they don't do anything. Ask my sisters xD. They'd much rather do Venture which is co-ed than Girl Scouts.


----------



## Jennywocky

My ex met some guy many years older and after three months got engaged. She's been veering heavy-religious after we split some years back and now even by my standards is becoming fairly extreme. 

My middle kid was gender-variant at 2 years old and came out as gay at 12, trans at 17 or so. My ex had tussled with her over boyname/girlname and was at least half the time using girlname as requested, but now with the fiance's influence has allowed a complete backtrack and both he and she and the other female parent sharing a house with them (who originally helped convince my ex it was respectful to call our kid by the desired gender name/pronoun) has also backtracked.

So my middle child (transdaughter) is stuck in a crappy situation where everyone in the family there is calling her by boy names/pronouns as part of "expressing their religious freedom." She's 18 and does plan to move out and live on her own once she gets her cosmetology certification this summer, but I hope she can get out ASAP. Pretty much the whole family situation has gone to hell. It's funny that my other two kids are straight cisgens, but both are pissed at how their sister is being treated. None of them are left with wanting to interact much with that side of the family anymore because of how they are treating their sibling (and, well, how they treated me). 

They say it gets better. It actually just gets better, then worse, then better, then worse, but hopefully in the end, the more you realize who accepts you as you are and who does not, you build a home and family for yourself.



Sara Torailles said:


> It was when the whole Caitlyn Jenner thing exploded and the transgender safe space on reddit got posted on by people who really didn't seem to understand what the hell was going on. This wasn't some troll who made a throwaway, either. This was someone who posted a fair amount in other subreddits. It was something I'd easily expect from the Neo Nazi subreddit base, but this guy didn't seem to have any history on that or the gender "critical" subreddits, two large groups of people who regularly invade trans subreddits to say awful things.


It all came across as a petty kneejerk reaction to how positively Jenner's transition was accepted by the media and populace. The Olympic committee pretty quickly said, "Uh, nope, no plans to take anything back here."

If people knew anything about the rules as stated, it would have been obvious it wasn't really an issue. Besides, her hormonal makeup was male at the time, and since males do have an advantage in some sports, their thinking wasn't even sensible -- if they want to say she was a woman who won the medals over men, that would have made her even more impressive all things considered. But it was all on the level, hormonally....



Amphoteric said:


> I wonder if the same applies to transgender boys being allowed in Boy Scouts. It's one of those childhood experiences I wish I could've had.


yeah, like was said, the BSA has been fighting for some years just over having gay scouts and then gay scout leaders. (At this point it was still "no" on the latter, although the current leader just recently said they need to make this shift, to a lot of vocal dissent.) I'm not sure how many chapters dropped out even with the shifts that have been made so far. 

I tend to think society tends to be more accepting of transguys than transwomen overall, but still, yeah, I wouldn't get any hopes up over BSA changing rules any time soon. It was rather interesting how supportive the Girl Scouts were so early in comparison.


----------



## AesSidhe

@Jennywocky can't your daughter (temporarily) move in with you so she can be somewhere accepting and loving?


----------



## Jennywocky

AesSidhe said:


> @Jennywocky can't your daughter (temporarily) move in with you so she can be somewhere accepting and loving?


I live about 90-100 miles away, and she goes to school and works daily up there. Plus there are medical issues covered by the state/county so she needs to stay in proximity. She's pretty tough and has many friends so she's gonna make it; but she's not going to forget. That whole situation is resulting in her writing off that entire half of the family.


----------



## Miss Prince

I am not sure if this is the thread for this, but I will put myself into the action. Anyway, how do most in this thread deal with things such as dysphoria if you deal with it?


----------



## Sara Torailles

Miss Prince said:


> I am not sure if this is the thread for this, but I will put myself into the action. Anyway, how do most in this thread deal with things such as dysphoria if you deal with it?


Very poorly. I've become numb to my own feelings, frequently having passing thoughts of suicide, mostly angry, and have pushed nearly everyone away. My brain constantly tells me that I'm an ugly piece of crap that will never be a real woman. And then the doubt of whether I'm even really transgender sinks in. It's not okay that this crap takes away my happiness, but it also takes away my dignity.

It helps being with friends who know and respect your gender, no matter how you present that day. It also helps having a counselor you can talk to who knows that you're having those feelings.

It helps to have distractions as well. Something that can take your mind off of it.

It helped me immensely at one time to have an online encounter with a Mummy domme who I could talk to, who knew the state I was born with, and called me her little girl regardless. She helped me work through it, and even made me like my downstairs for a little while. She left, though.


----------



## Entropic

Miss Prince said:


> I am not sure if this is the thread for this, but I will put myself into the action. Anyway, how do most in this thread deal with things such as dysphoria if you deal with it?


I dealt with it by not dealing with it. I denied I had problems and went pretty much "oh yeah, since I feel this way everyone probably does too" and stopped thinking about it and just saw it as something I had to accept as a part of my life. I did sometimes consciously feel discomfort, but I just kind of stopped noticing it was there and tried to pretend I felt normal and ok though in retrospect I really didn't because I can't recall a single instance in my life where I truly felt comfortable with myself and my gender, at least pre-transition. I just thought I couldn't do anything about it anyway and this was my lot in life so I just had to live with it. I never liked being feminine for example, and I strongly disliked femininity in general and I often tried to experiment with my presentation to be more feminine because I thought that's how I had to be and it was just like... I don't know. It never seemed right. It becomes this weird empty pep talk of "well, you do look good in that dress" and sure enough, I mean, I did think that dress looked pretty but in the end it never quite felt like me? Like I was trying to pretend to be something because I knew that is expected of me and I didn't know what else to be like, what other options I really had. 

To clarify the above, my dysphoria was more implied. It showed up in ways I suddenly felt uncomfortable in situations where my gender was implied or forced to be made explicit e.g. having to check the gender box on various forms, having people in my environment comment on my body that implied its feminine status e.g. when my stepmom commented on that I had put on weight and finally was looking curvy, when people allotted me to sit at the women's table during family gatherings, when I felt I had to use my gender as a way to shield against potential interest from other people, people referring me by specific pronouns e.g. little miss etc. It just didn't feel and seem right. I always found it so perplexing that some people could feel so secure in their gender and just say "I'm X" as if it was the most natural and normal thing in the world because for me back then, it really wasn't.

Oh yeah, I also really disliked my birth name for reasons I just could never figure out. I remember I actually asked my dad about changing name as a kid and he just said he had tried it too as a kid but people kind of fell back on using the old name by habit so it wasn't successful and he gave up on the endeavor. Wasn't worth the effort. I rationalized it that a lot of people obviously don't like their given names much so I just figured I didn't like it because I just didn't like it, like I didn't like the sound of it and such, you know? The funny thing is that now, 2 years past my transition and changing name, I actually can finally appreciate my original birth name and think it's pretty sounding, because I no longer associate it with myself and what it implies about me.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Miss Prince said:


> I am not sure if this is the thread for this, but I will put myself into the action. Anyway, how do most in this thread deal with things such as dysphoria if you deal with it?


I tried to ignore it for ages. I had all the early signs at an early age, never told my mom as I didn't think I could rely on her (I from an early age had been raised that I couldn't really confide in anyone for a whole lot). I ignored it, sucked it up, tried to do all the sports I was thrown into from age 4 on, grew up, tried football in middle school, was getting a build, didn't really care for masculine things but I was just using "Oh I'm a geek, geeks don't have to be masculine, I get a free pass, just don't act like a ******." Aaaand then when you try having sex as a straight male, something inside just kinda snaps and screams at how wrong the rushing testosterone is, how foreign it all feels, how things are not how they should be, how every time you consecutively try with your then girlfriend after that, it gets more and more painful emotionally before the problem comes back to hit you like a sack of bricks and refuses to be ignored anymore and crushing you until you act on it. So...like that.


----------



## Jennywocky

As an adult, after I was married and it didn't go away, I actually tried to deal with it, process it, embrace it, see if I could change / adjust to deal. (I had children, I didn't want to them to lose out in some way because of my issues.) Unfortunately, it was still too much for me; it just hurt all the time, every waking moment. I also tried to process it through faith, but ... my views actually shifted over time based on my experiences.

When I look back at it, one thing I did was immerse myself in projects -- writing, music, drawing, etc. Those things consumed much of my time. They were essentially coping mechanisms that didn't work in the long run. It took some years, but eventually I couldn't stay in that "static" place in-between worlds any longer, and I had nothing left for my children. I made the change, we rode it out and it was rough for a little as every change is, but my kids saw how no longer dealing with the dysphoria allowed me to engage them more deeply and things are better now than they were before everything.

i think if you are in position where you can't make any changes, coping mechanisms to get through the day are okay if they keep you happier and alive. It's just they were not made for long-term "fixing", they are just temporary measures.


----------



## Drewbie

Miss Prince said:


> I am not sure if this is the thread for this, but I will put myself into the action. Anyway, how do most in this thread deal with things such as dysphoria if you deal with it?


Not well. I try to do productive things, do project and whatnot, but honestly when dysphoria gets me too far down there's not much more I can do but just stay in bed and distract myself with books or tv or the internet until I feel better enough to function again. Sometimes I try to consume media with positive depictions of trans people similar to myself which is sometimes exactly what I need, but there's not a lot of it out there and there are times when it just makes dysphoria worse. I am not a creative person but a lot of trans people I know use creative outlets to help with dysphoria whether that's writing, music, or painting. I tend to try avoiding anything that requires self awareness. It is not a healthy way to cope but it's really all I've got for now.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

"There are some for whom catch phrases such as “born this way” and “trapped in the wrong body” make trans people acceptable because the narratives they represent render us passive victims of our own freakishness – and so they justify our existence outside the gender norm. The implication is that no one could or should choose to be as horrifyingly wrong as my body makes me. But I do not believe that one requires justification to live and identify as one chooses. When I decided to start hormone therapy, I did not do it because I hated my body. I did it so the world would see my gender closer to the way I do. I did it because I loved myself, because my body is mine, and because I am the one who decides how to navigate it through this complicated and violent world...

to qualify for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria (ie, to be ‘really’ transgender), trans people must often express complete repudiation of their genitals and secondary sex characteristics... The result is that transgender identity becomes defined in terms of disgust, hatred, dysphoria, disease. Our bodies become a condition to be cured, a mistake to be corrected, freakish, abominations.

I am inspired to re-create my own gendered self outside of the Western, medicalized narrative of dysphoria and disease that has been forced upon me – to, in the words of transpinay activist Sass Rogando Sasot, “reclaim this body from those who want it to breathe and be fed by their dogmas.” I can relate to my body, transform my body, from a place of joy instead of anger and fear."

http://www.xojane.com/issues/im-a-transwoman-who-never-felt-trapped-in-the-wrong-body


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Miss Prince said:


> I am not sure if this is the thread for this, but I will put myself into the action. Anyway, how do most in this thread deal with things such as dysphoria if you deal with it?


I have been skilled at disassociation since I was a small child. Being misgendered or in some other way forced to become aware of the mismatch between my body and gender is painful, but I am quick to snap back into disassociation mode. So I guess I don't really deal with the dysphoria I have, I just pretend I don't exist from the neck down.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

COOLEST - HUMANS


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Entropic said:


> Argentina's inclusion of a third gender:
> Argentina Gender Identity Law - TGEU
> 
> Info about Australia's work on gender inclusion:
> https://www.ag.gov.au/Publications/...tGuidelinesontheRecognitionofSexandGender.PDF


fuck yeah argentina!


----------



## Playful Proxy

That awkward moment when you've been gendered female on the phone like 20 times, guild teamspeak server a few times and one time, some guy randomly 'he's you and says you almost sound like a gay guy and ALL confidence is lost. Just. Dead. Nope, voice sucks entirely, fuck it all.


----------



## Jennywocky

If it means anything, on occasion I still have moments when I feel that way, usually at work. (It sucks.) One bad experience seems to negate twenty or fifty good ones.

There's a lot of just picking your confidence out of the dirt where it's fallen, sticking it back in your heart, and moving ahead with life.


----------



## Metalize

Alright. I'm done dicking around. That's probably enough tears for one lifetime. Genderless, agender, _neutrois_, FtM, whatever the fuck it is, I am certainly extremely unhappy as a female. 

I'll start seeing what the options with my insurance are. If my insurance won't cover it for whatever reason, I'm looking for a new job (well, getting a boost on that search).


----------



## Flatlander

Metasentient said:


> Alright. I'm done dicking around. That's probably enough tears for one lifetime. Genderless, agender, _neutrosis_, FtM, whatever the fuck it is, I am certainly extremely unhappy as a female.
> 
> I'll start seeing what the options with my insurance are. If my insurance won't cover it for whatever reason, I'm looking for a new job (well, getting a boost on that search).


Hormones are relatively cheap, if that helps.


----------



## AmandaLee

Flatlander said:


> Hormones are relatively cheap, if that helps.


If you're in a country where hormone therapy is funded, completely or partially, through public health insurance, you'd be right. For Americans, not so much.


----------



## Flatlander

AmandaLee said:


> If you're in a country where hormone therapy is funded, completely or partially, through public health insurance, you'd be right. For Americans, not so much.


No health insurance or funding, I go to Planned Parenthood and get mine for $50 for a 6 month supply. There are often ways, though some of that may be subject to region.


----------



## Entropic

If it helps, I get my hormones funded but only after a certain sum (over 1000 sek) and I then get half price and T is ridiculously expensive. One box of 30 bags of gel is over 500 kr. I really cba to calculate but the sek to usd conversion rate is about 6 to 1, so one box is about 100 usd I reckon, a little less than. The flipside for me is that since I've had an oophorectomy early before I started T, I take half dose is what's normal and feel fine anyway, and have a T level within the low average range. At least that's a lot less money since I consume less. 

If you can have an oophorectomy you should look into it. It doesn't work for just hystro because you still got your gonads that produce hormones. If you do hystro it has to be complete with oophorectomy included.

Another benefit is no period ever again, which being on T alone doesn't guarantee. Man, I've been without for over a year and I don't miss it at all. It's so pleasant. Feels so natural and normal like how it's finally supposed to be.

I'm officially seeing an endocrinologist within a month or so, so I will discuss to move to injections also. I'd rather inject 1-2 weeks instead of gel every other day.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Jennywocky said:


> If it means anything, on occasion I still have moments when I feel that way, usually at work. (It sucks.) One bad experience seems to negate twenty or fifty good ones.
> 
> There's a lot of just picking your confidence out of the dirt where it's fallen, sticking it back in your heart, and moving ahead with life.


After a little investigation, I know what went wrong >.<. I've been super depressed lately and haven't been doing voice maintenance as much as I should. After looking a bit deeper, I've lost 30Hz in my pitch and my resonance is barely holding on if at all and doesn't keep the same smoothness it had (In voicework the female resonance has a pitch requirement to even achieve so if your range falls below the point needed to even get it, you can't step up resonance and the entire voice ends up sounding well...like a gay guy). Welp, time to get back on that. >.<


----------



## AmandaLee

Entropic said:


> If people were simple. Unfortunately history has proven that they are not.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I understand all that but no, I don't see the problem with it, pretty much. If it's not realistic to challenge status quo, when is it realistic to challenge status quo? Social revolutions happen because people do get fed up and do challenge the status quo, so clearly there is no right or wrong time frame, but simply a matter of when people have had enough.
> 
> I am not saying people have to accept 180+ variations of gender. It sounds like quite the hyperbole and slippery slope argument to me. What people simply have to accept is that some people do not want to fit into the binary. They don't need to understand or know more than that. Simply ask the person what pronouns and names they prefer and you are good to go. I feel like people make this into a more complicated issue than it is sometimes. I mean, on check boxes for example, having a simple "Other" option suffices in my opinion. If you want to be extremely specific, then include an option to write down what you mean by "other". You have that with religions and nationalities, so why not gender? No one's claiming it's discrimination against religion or ethnicity. Minority groups do have to accept that some concessions need to be made. It's unfortunate, but at least it's better than not being recognized at all.
> 
> And as you are alluding to with people like Laverne Cox, of course I am aware of that, which is why I addressed that the trans movement is not without its own problems. However, you got to start somewhere too and these problems aren't so insurmountable they cannot be addressed in time.


In general I would say that if an existing system is to be eradicated, another one has to take its place. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "had enough"? What do you want to change, and more importantly, how would you like things to be? 

When it comes to heteronormativity and its influence on the societal structure, the gay community is actually moving toward it, not away from it. Marriage itself is ultimately a heteronormative construction created to ensure paternity. Plenty of young gay people, at least in Sweden, make a point out of being _exactly like straights_, except on one plane, which would be the gender of their partner. You're familiar with the concept "Svensson-bögar", I'm sure. They're part of the group I'm referring to. There's no questioning of this constellation, and when older gay people, who were young back when sauna clubs and cruising areas were the norm for male/male encounters say they don't want to get married, they're generally unsympathetic towards this viewpoint.

EDIT: As for the gender binary, I wasn't talking about superficial aspects like pronoun use. Of course anyone can learn to use the pronouns the person in question prefers. I was talking about how our brains subconsciously _see_ the individual. It goes deeper than pronouns. You can say you are, for example, a man, and people might address you as one, but if you don't communicate enough normative masculinity, culturally and biologically, to project "male", people's brains won't code you as one, and it will in turn, consciously or unconsciously, affect their attitude towards you. This is why I say we are all trapped in this binary gender discourse, and ridding ourselves of this mindset is difficult if not downright impossible.


----------



## Strayfire

AmandaLee said:


> I
> When it comes to *heteronormativity and its influence on the societal structure, the gay community is actually moving toward it, not away from it*. Marriage itself is ultimately a heteronormative construction created to ensure paternity. Plenty of young gay people, at least in Sweden, make a point out of being _exactly like straights_, except on one plane, which would be the gender of their partner. You're familiar with the concept "Svensson-bögar", I'm sure.


In the anthropological academia I read, there's been a gradual shift and differentiation (at least in Thailand) from gays being considered part of the "third gender"* category of _kathoey_, distancing themselves in the 1970s as _gay kings/queens_ rather than as _kathoey_. What is interesting to note is that the vast majority of gay kings/queens construct their identities in stark opposition of transgender/transsexual _kathoey_ and outwardly present themselves as cis, with many _gay king_s going to extensive lengths to prove how cis they are. Jackson explains in Kathoey><Gay><Man: The Emergence of Gay Male Identity in Thailand, Thai society's primary prejudice is against _kathoey_ who outwardly display femininity. So whilst Jackson notes that there might be rumours a minister is gay, nobody will particularly question his authority, yet it would be unimaginable for _kathoey_ to hold office because they do not embody cisnormitivity. 









From: JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

So I guess when I hear people pronounce at the top of their lungs that the US high court decision magically elevates all LGBTI people from marginalisation. It just feels worrying to me in the way that gay people can "play down" their "gayness" to "fit in" with mainstream society. 

I'm sure there was a purpose to my rant. *shrug*

*The idea of "third gender" at least from an anthropological perspective is very problematic to say the least... 
PS: Unlike what Jackson will claim in the article, there is no universally understood lexicon pertaining to kathoey. There are geographical factors, class positions, political leanings influence whether the term kathoey is still used to describe gayness...


----------



## lolthevoidlol

AmandaLee said:


> EDIT: As for the gender binary, I wasn't talking about superficial aspects like pronoun use. Of course anyone can learn to use the pronouns the person in question prefers. I was talking about how our brains subconsciously _see_ the individual. It goes deeper than pronouns. You can say you are, for example, a man, and people might address you as one, but if you don't communicate enough normative masculinity, culturally and biologically, to project "male", people's brains won't code you as one, and it will in turn, consciously or unconsciously, affect their attitude towards you. This is why I say we are all trapped in this binary gender discourse, and ridding ourselves of this mindset is difficult if not downright impossible to alter.


This is an incredibly western viewpoint that disregards both the fact that there are many cultures that do not define gender relations along a binary and that this type of grouping/categorization is learned. What is taught can be untaught (with difficulty) or at the very least new generations can be taught something new. The gender binary only seems inherent because in western cultures it is literally continually enforced starting from before birth even occurs. The fact that these other nonbinary cultures exist at all should clue one in to the fact that the binary viewpoint is not inevitable. The fact that I exist as a self identified nonbinary person should also be a clue given that I should be equally "trapped" in the binary discourse and therefor unable to see myself as anything other than man or woman. Being out and loud may not change anything about how the older generations view me (though in my life there are notable exceptions of older people being incredibly open to this new conversation about gender), and it may not cause a mass change among the current generation who's dealt with the same binary upbringing, but for younger people who grow up knowing there's more than man and woman it will indeed affect a fundamental change in their viewpoint. If this out loud existence goes through the usual process of societal prejudice -> tolerance -> acceptance, then eventually there will come a generation who grows up knowing that people who are outside the binary are rarer than men and women but also a normal part of human existence.


----------



## Metalize

@_AmandaLee_

I would not address your questions with serious regard, due to the fact that you insisted, with some extreme bias, that all asexuals have mental issues that essentially make them repressed sexuals, and that a person on here who was reaching out for help with his troubling thoughts regarding his gender, should just go "see a counselor". 

Of course anything out of the norm is going to be considered a mental disorder and given no further consideration, if the response to these people will always be to see a counselor/doctor.

It's worth noting that not too long ago, menstrual and hormonal imbalances in women were frequently written off as "hysteria" and to be treated as a mental disorder. By doctors, I mean.


----------



## AmandaLee

Metasentient said:


> @_AmandaLee_
> 
> I would not address your questions with serious regard, due to the fact that you insisted, with some extreme bias, that all asexuals have mental issues that essentially make them repressed sexuals, and that a person on here who was reaching out for help with his troubling thoughts regarding his gender, should just go "see a counselor".
> 
> Of course anything out of the norm is going to be considered a mental disorder and given no further consideration, if the response to these people will always be to see a counselor/doctor.
> 
> It's worth noting that not too long ago, menstrual and hormonal imbalances in women were frequently written off as "hysteria" and to be treated as a mental disorder. By doctors, I mean.


Excuse you??

WHAT are you talking about? I have not said anything of the kind, so I'm going to ask you not to put words in my mouth.

If others want to answer my questions, it's up to them.


----------



## Metalize

AmandaLee said:


> Excuse you??
> 
> WHAT are you talking about? I have not said anything of the kind, so I'm going to ask you not to put words in my mouth.
> 
> If others want to answer my questions, it's up to them.


No need to get defensive. It is totally up to them, but I'm pointing out you have a bias in categorizing these various groups that fall outside social norms, as having mental pathologies.


----------



## AmandaLee

Metasentient said:


> No need to get defensive. It is totally up to them, but I'm pointing out you have a bias in categorizing these various groups that fall outside social norms, as having mental pathologies.


And I don't tolerate having words put in my mouth or having my words twisted to suggest something I did not say. 

As far as I'm concerned, this discussion is over. This is definitely not the place for it. Let's not derail the thread any further. 

If I have advised someone with "troubling thoughts" about anything to seek a counselor, I was probably right to do so. Certainly a trained professional would be able to advise them better than an internet forum.

Good day.


----------



## Entropic

AmandaLee said:


> In general I would say that if an existing system is to be eradicated, another one has to take its place.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by "had enough"? What do you want to change, and more importantly, how would you like things to be?


To be inclusive? You don't have to eradicate an entire system; you can simply change the undesirable parts. 



> When it comes to heteronormativity and its influence on the societal structure, the gay community is actually moving toward it, not away from it. Marriage itself is ultimately a heteronormative construction created to ensure paternity. Plenty of young gay people, at least in Sweden, make a point out of being _exactly like straights_, except on one plane, which would be the gender of their partner. You're familiar with the concept "Svensson-bögar", I'm sure. They're part of the group I'm referring to. There's no questioning of this constellation, and when older gay people, who were young back when sauna clubs and cruising areas were the norm for male/male encounters say they don't want to get married, they're generally unsympathetic towards this viewpoint.


I don't understand the relevance of this paragraph. 



> EDIT: As for the gender binary, I wasn't talking about superficial aspects like pronoun use. Of course anyone can learn to use the pronouns the person in question prefers. I was talking about how our brains subconsciously _see_ the individual. It goes deeper than pronouns. You can say you are, for example, a man, and people might address you as one, but if you don't communicate enough normative masculinity, culturally and biologically, to project "male", people's brains won't code you as one, and it will in turn, consciously or unconsciously, affect their attitude towards you. This is why I say we are all trapped in this binary gender discourse, and ridding ourselves of this mindset is difficult if not downright impossible.


That's learned behavior and is something you can also unlearn. It's pretty obvious if you study how people make these connections across time and space. I don't think we are trapped at all and are only trapped if we believe ourselves to be trapped. I don't think it's downright impossible; I think it is very possible. Look at how much change has been made just the past century alone. Are we there yet? No, of course not. Why should that stop us from getting where we want to be? 

Change has to start in the present, in order to attain the future that you seek.


----------



## AmandaLee

Entropic said:


> To be inclusive? You don't have to eradicate an entire system; you can simply change the undesirable parts.


"To be inclusive" is not a specific solution to any particular problem. It sounds nice in theory but it's just empty rhetoric. Like Aftonbladet's "Vi Gillar Olika!" campaign. 



> I don't understand the relevance of this paragraph.


I was using heteronormativity as an example of a paradigm. Considering most people are hetero and cis. These standards saturate all layers of our society, because the vast majority of people are not capable of thinking beyond them.



> That's learned behavior and is something you can also unlearn. It's pretty obvious if you study how people make these connections across time and space. I don't think we are trapped at all and are only trapped if we believe ourselves to be trapped. I don't think it's downright impossible; I think it is very possible. Look at how much change has been made just the past century alone. Are we there yet? No, of course not. Why should that stop us from getting where we want to be?
> 
> Change has to start in the present, in order to attain the future that you seek.


I'm not as optimistic as you when it comes to changing the wirings of an adult human brain. I've noticed most people don't even realize they are thinking within these parameters. 

I ask again, what kind of changes would you like to see (particularly regarding trans rights), and how would you go about implementing them in practice?


----------



## Entropic

AmandaLee said:


> "To be inclusive" is not a specific solution to any particular problem. It sounds nice in theory but it's just empty rhetoric. Like Aftonbladet's "Vi Gillar Olika!" campaign.


You can make it as explicit as you want because "inclusive" is a broad term. It can for example mean to include better social representation in politics, to have your rights recognized when it comes to legal documents and documentation, consider how certain laws and practices become fucked up due to people having had a legal gender change and the list goes on. 



> I was using heteronormativity as an example of a paradigm. Considering most people are hetero and cis. These standards saturate all layers of our society, because the vast majority of people are not capable of thinking beyond them.


I don't share your pessimism. Just because a majority of people have learned to identify with what we classify as hetero and cis (I don't think these categories are as big and normative as people think they are) doesn't mean that they can accept or learn to understand that there are people different from them, like they did with homosexuality. It's obvious that people are adaptable and can change and it's as obvious that this isn't necessarily related to age or even intelligence. My 90+ grandma had no problem accepting that I came out and she is fully supportive of LGBT rights. She's a stereotype ESFJ with well below average intelligence (sometimes I wonder how she manages to get by in society). She's never run into transgender as a concept before this. Again, you make it into a bigger problem than it frankly realistically is. 



> I'm not as optimistic as you when it comes to changing the wirings of an adult human brain. I've noticed most people don't even realize they are thinking within these parameters.


Do you even have any evidence to suggest that this is actually neurologically innate as opposed to something learned? Again, see my post and void's refutation on this. 

Also, the one way you re-write associations is to make people aware that they are making them. You make people aware by spreading knowledge which creates awareness. Once people are aware they can choose to interpret information however they want, instead of doing it on automatic. 

I have done this with a lot of my current values. If I can do it, so can other people. 



> I ask again, what kind of changes would you like to see (particularly regarding trans rights), and how would you go about implementing them in practice?


For example sloping the legal gender system. It's moot. Making it easier for trans people to gain access to treatment without medical staff operating as gatekeepers. The gatekeeping is moot as well. Making it easier for parents and married people when it comes to how they are legally documented and what rights they gain based on that. My biggest gripe is currently just the legal gender system though. See the case of Argentina that I already linked as a great example of how it could potentially look like. 

Added: And it needs to be said that the case of Argentina isn't some far-reaching future but it is existing right here, right now. Argentina is an extremely gender-divided country, suffering from the typical problems of Latino culture where men are macho and women coquette-ish and there is little in-between, and this gender divide is held as very important as it is what separates and distinguishes men and women apart from each other. Equality, in Latin-speaking countries such as Argentina, is to preserve the differences between gender, to let women be women and men be men, rather than what we do in the West where women become more like men and thus remove any differences that exist between the gender roles.

Argentina also suffers a lot of problems with the social treatment and abuse of transgender individuals, in particular the travestí, which is a specific group of what would best be classified as MtF individuals. Many work in the sex and trafficking industry and are commonly subject to abuse, both verbal and physical. They experience very little social protection and is a highly stigmatized group though they scorn crossdressers because they think crossdressers aren't the real deal and not as authentic in their gender expression as they themselves are. 

Despite all this, Argentina has the most liberal treatment of transgender people in the eyes of the law in the world. Like seriously, people again make this out to be a bigger problem than it really is. It's actually quite simple and if fucking Argentina can do it, then so can other Western countries.


----------



## AmandaLee

Entropic said:


> You can make it as explicit as you want because "inclusive" is a broad term. It can for example mean to include better social representation in politics, to have your rights recognized when it comes to legal documents and documentation, consider how certain laws and practices become fucked up due to people having had a legal gender change and the list goes on.
> 
> Do you even have any evidence to suggest that this is actually neurologically innate as opposed to something learned? Again, see my post and void's refutation on this.


I never said brain structure is neurologically innate, I said that once a behavior pattern/thinking style is learned and becomes ingrained, it's very difficult to unlearn. Particularly in adults past middle-age, as their brain plasticity is low compared to children and adolescents. 



> I don't share your pessimism. Just because a majority of people have learned to identify with what we classify as hetero and cis (I don't think these categories are as big and normative as people think they are) doesn't mean that they can accept or learn to understand that there are people different from them, like they did with homosexuality.


How inclusive are people when it comes to homosexuality, though? In my personal experience, not very. In general people never consider the possibility that someone might have a same-sex partner. If I'd had a crown for every time I was asked "do you have a boyfriend/husband" during the 7 year relationship I had with a woman, I would be rich. If people stopped assuming everyone was heterosexual, it would be progress, but I doubt it. 



> For example sloping the legal gender system. It's moot. Making it easier for trans people to gain access to treatment without medical staff operating as gatekeepers. The gatekeeping is moot as well. Making it easier for parents and married people when it comes to how they are legally documented and what rights they gain based on that. My biggest gripe is currently just the legal gender system though. See the case of Argentina that I already linked as a great example of how it could potentially look like.


While I agree that legal gender serves no real point, I doubt anything will be done about it. For one, the administrative cost of having it removed from the system would be way too high. Do you want to abolish transsexualism as a medical diagnosis? One can argue that it's stigmatizing, but on one hand it assures that the person wanting to go through hormone therapy and SRS is truly serious about it. I would definitely not want hormones to be sold as over the counter meds. Estrogen, for example, could be lethal to people with blood-clotting disorders like APC resistance (which is common in Scandinavia).


----------



## Commander_Luna

Unfortunately, I realized too late for me to skip male puberty. Came a bit early. Luckily, seemed to have a more mild puberty thanks to genetics. Machoness is not on either my mom's or dad's side of the family. The only problem I have is shaving, cause my razor is crappy.


----------



## Entropic

I dreamt that I was getting top surgery. fml.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Commander_Luna said:


> Unfortunately, I realized too late for me to skip male puberty. Came a bit early. Luckily, seemed to have a more mild puberty thanks to genetics. Machoness is not on either my mom's or dad's side of the family. The only problem I have is shaving, cause my razor is crappy.


Laser + Groupon will save your soul. ^^


----------



## Ace Face

Entropic said:


> I dreamt that I was getting top surgery. fml.


Someday!


----------



## Entropic

Ace Face said:


> Someday!


Yes, consultation coming up in 4 weeks! Feels too long though, far too long.


----------



## Ace Face

Entropic said:


> Yes, consultation coming up in 4 weeks! Feels too long though, far too long.


Omg, congrats! I hope to hear updates in the future


----------



## Playful Proxy

Sad realization: Ask the trans community if something's transphobic or why and everyone has a comment, three page reply, and 16 debates. Ask the trans community on how to make a haircut look more feminine and what to do while growing it out? No one knows. Ask them how to improve your voice and all you get is either "It sounds fantastic" and "I know what you mean but I have no idea". Ask them where to start looking and what to shop for with clothes and you get nothing. It's almost like no one cares about the actual transitioning part.

Glad we all have our priorities in order.


----------



## Ace Face

Playful Proxy said:


> Sad realization: Ask the trans community if something's transphobic or why and everyone has a comment, three page reply, and 16 debates.


Not much can be done about this unfortunately.



> Ask the trans community on how to make a haircut look more feminine and what to do while growing it out? No one knows.


How long/short is your hair right now? What stage is it in?



> Ask them how to improve your voice and all you get is either "It sounds fantastic" and "I know what you mean but I have no idea".


There is such a thing as vocal training. Obviously, it costs money, but I know M2FTs that have gone through with it and were very grateful. The last thing they want is to be outed by their voice. I also know some people who are on the opposite side of the spectrum that say it shouldn't matter what your voice sounds like, everything is fine, blah, blah, blah. Do what you feel is right. If you want vocal training, go for it!  



> Ask them where to start looking and what to shop for with clothes and you get nothing. It's almost like no one cares about the actual transitioning part.


I care! I have some tips if you want them


----------



## Tetsuo Shima

My gender is a lost cause. I'm used to everybody offline using female pronouns since I haven't come out as trans offline, but now, people on this website are using female pronouns after seeing my selfies. I really don't like being referred to as female online since I've been presenting myself as male online for at least 10 years, so I'm really more used to being male. And also, most strangers thought I was a boy IRL before I went through puberty.


----------



## Wellsy

http://www.wofford.edu/uploadedfiles/communityscholars/2010_scholars/metzger_spread.pdf


----------



## Entropic

Tetsuo Shima said:


> My gender is a lost cause. I'm used to everybody offline using female pronouns since I haven't come out as trans offline, but now, people on this website are using female pronouns after seeing my selfies. I really don't like being referred to as female online since I've been presenting myself as male online for at least 10 years, so I'm really more used to being male. And also, most strangers thought I was a boy IRL before I went through puberty.


I would recommend to perhaps start doing minor work towards a transition. Maybe start with a new haircut and some new more androgynous clothes or clothing style and work from there?


----------



## Playful Proxy

Ace Face said:


> Not much can be done about this unfortunately.
> 
> 
> 
> How long/short is your hair right now? What stage is it in?


Back is past my shoulders, sides are about to my shoulders, closer to my face, it kinda gets a bit shorter so it's not to my chest but more to my chin (just enough to get in my face). There's a pic in my profile but that's more of just when I took the time to spend time on it. Most of the time it just turns into this curly frizzy explosion if I don't apply heat and I've no idea whatsoever how to style curly hair xD
Click Me That was taken yesterday when I'd just let hair airdry. 



Ace Face said:


> There is such a thing as vocal training. Obviously, it costs money, but I know M2FTs that have gone through with it and were very grateful. The last thing they want is to be outed by their voice. I also know some people who are on the opposite side of the spectrum that say it shouldn't matter what your voice sounds like, everything is fine, blah, blah, blah. Do what you feel is right. If you want vocal training, go for it!


Yup, I've seen a speech pathologist for the last few months but eventually she hit a "that's all I can teach you, you learn fast" mode so we've since stopped seeing one another. The problem? While I'll get gendered female about 70% of the time on teamspeak online, 30% I've had people tell me I ALMOST sound like a gay guy or that my voice sounds very androgynous. To me that means "You arn't done yet, keep going." 
Voice sounds pretty similar to: Click Me (That was a few days ago when I took that, but under perfect conditions when I'm not tired and there's no vocal strain causing pitch to drop a bit)


----------



## Tetsuo Shima

Entropic said:


> I would recommend to perhaps start doing minor work towards a transition. Maybe start with a new haircut and some new more androgynous clothes or clothing style and work from there?


I don't want to be stereotypical.


----------



## Jennywocky

Tetsuo Shima said:


> I don't want to be stereotypical.


It depends how much of your happiness is wrapped up in not being stereotypical versus feeling good about where you are in life. As long as you're true to yourself (either way), it doesn't really matter positively or negatively what others think aside from all the practical complications...


----------



## Ace Face

Playful Proxy said:


> Back is past my shoulders, sides are about to my shoulders, closer to my face, it kinda gets a bit shorter so it's not to my chest but more to my chin (just enough to get in my face). There's a pic in my profile but that's more of just when I took the time to spend time on it. Most of the time it just turns into this curly frizzy explosion if I don't apply heat and I've no idea whatsoever how to style curly hair xD
> Click Me That was taken yesterday when I'd just let hair airdry.
> 
> 
> Yup, I've seen a speech pathologist for the last few months but eventually she hit a "that's all I can teach you, you learn fast" mode so we've since stopped seeing one another. The problem? While I'll get gendered female about 70% of the time on teamspeak online, 30% I've had people tell me I ALMOST sound like a gay guy or that my voice sounds very androgynous. To me that means "You arn't done yet, keep going."
> Voice sounds pretty similar to: Click Me (That was a few days ago when I took that, but under perfect conditions when I'm not tired and there's no vocal strain causing pitch to drop a bit)


Okay, first of all, your hair fucking rocks! Not everyone is so blessed. For curly hair like that, be sure to always use some sort of moisturizing shampoo and conditioner on your hair. Make sure that your ends get slathered in conditioner love. After that, apply a curl defining cream of some sort. This will help you make your kinky hair (hehe) more pronounced. Try not to overdo it though. The more product of that sort that you put in your hair, the more at risk you will be for it falling out once you start to diffuse it with a blow dryer. Have you ever used a diffuser before? It works wonders for curly hair. Scrunch it up and bunch it up using the diffuser and your hands. After you're done diffusing it, you can use an anti-frizz serum to get all the little fly-away hairs under control. It will look amazing, I assure you! 

Well, at least she had the balls to tell you she's taught you all that she can... she's not ripping you off to teach you the same things over and over again. If your voice hasn't reached a level that you like yet, then keep practicing and using the techniques she taught you. It will definitely change over time. For what it's worth, your voice sounded very feminine to me  Lovely!


----------



## Entropic

Playful Proxy said:


> Back is past my shoulders, sides are about to my shoulders, closer to my face, it kinda gets a bit shorter so it's not to my chest but more to my chin (just enough to get in my face). There's a pic in my profile but that's more of just when I took the time to spend time on it. Most of the time it just turns into this curly frizzy explosion if I don't apply heat and I've no idea whatsoever how to style curly hair xD
> Click Me That was taken yesterday when I'd just let hair airdry.
> 
> 
> Yup, I've seen a speech pathologist for the last few months but eventually she hit a "that's all I can teach you, you learn fast" mode so we've since stopped seeing one another. The problem? While I'll get gendered female about 70% of the time on teamspeak online, 30% I've had people tell me I ALMOST sound like a gay guy or that my voice sounds very androgynous. To me that means "You arn't done yet, keep going."
> Voice sounds pretty similar to: Click Me (That was a few days ago when I took that, but under perfect conditions when I'm not tired and there's no vocal strain causing pitch to drop a bit)


Yup, definitely sounds female to me! It's probably by and large your speech pattern contributing.

As for your hair, don't fall victim to let all the curls be at the end of your hair so it will create this droopy ear effect and frame in your head in a way that simply doesn't look good. Your head benefits from having the volume on top of your head, so I'd try to find a cut that lifts your hair up and helps to create volume at the top of your head.


----------



## reillybites

Playful Proxy said:


> Back is past my shoulders, sides are about to my shoulders, closer to my face, it kinda gets a bit shorter so it's not to my chest but more to my chin (just enough to get in my face). There's a pic in my profile but that's more of just when I took the time to spend time on it. Most of the time it just turns into this curly frizzy explosion if I don't apply heat and I've no idea whatsoever how to style curly hair xD
> Click Me That was taken yesterday when I'd just let hair airdry.


Oh hey! You've got the hair I used to have! I cut it off at the beginning of highschool because I just do not have what it takes to provide daily maintnance for long thick curly hair, ha. 
I can help with how to manage it though! Can you tell me what you do to take care of it? 
As for hair styles, I remember the one that looked particularly nice was when I had bangs. Since it doesn't curl too crazily until after a certain length, it was able to create a doll-like effect, which was very feminine. 
Another hairstyle that I thought looked nice, if you dont want to bother with bangs, was something like this, but I was always just lazy and used a hair tie instead of knotting my hair (very hard to do with curly hair). 
Other things you can do is play with braids! Braids always seemed feminine to me, and they usually look rather nice. 
I would also look here to find your face shape and to find hairstyles that fit your face shape


----------



## Playful Proxy

reillybites said:


> Oh hey! You've got the hair I used to have! I cut it off at the beginning of highschool because I just do not have what it takes to provide daily maintnance for long thick curly hair, ha.
> I can help with how to manage it though! Can you tell me what you do to take care of it?
> As for hair styles, I remember the one that looked particularly nice was when I had bangs. Since it doesn't curl too crazily until after a certain length, it was able to create a doll-like effect, which was very feminine.
> Another hairstyle that I thought looked nice, if you dont want to bother with bangs, was something like this, but I was always just lazy and used a hair tie instead of knotting my hair (very hard to do with curly hair).
> Other things you can do is play with braids! Braids always seemed feminine to me, and they usually look rather nice.
> I would also look here to find your face shape and to find hairstyles that fit your face shape


You're probably going to laugh but when it comes to how I care for my hair, the product I use largely depends on the state it's in. Atm, I just use a standard shampoo for dry and damaged hair and use argon oil conditioner (which I leave in for 5 minutes at least twice a week), after that it's mostly just throwing a little curl gel that helps to somewhat keep things together, brushing it through once (while entirely wet) to give it some order, and let it air dry. I've tried a diffuser before but that gives it a completely different texture that turns more into a curl-fro than an actual style, haha. A few months ago, I actually was going through the effort of blowing it out after the shower to straighten it to normal levels but doing that every day is such a pain and then requires something entirely different to prevent frizz if that's the look I was planning on going for. Also, completely straight hair on my face-type would look terrible. I need some volume.



Entropic said:


> Yup, definitely sounds female to me! It's probably by and large your speech pattern contributing.


What do you mean by speech pattern? Can you elaborate? 



Entropic said:


> As for your hair, don't fall victim to let all the curls be at the end of your hair so it will create this droopy ear effect and frame in your head in a way that simply doesn't look good. Your head benefits from having the volume on top of your head, so I'd try to find a cut that lifts your hair up and helps to create volume at the top of your head.


Thank you. I'm hoping to go see a stylist in the next week or so and I'll ask her about this and see if I can get some general tips. I got to the androgynous point quite a few months ago and I'm getting restless. It's about time I finally push all the way over and give male-mode the permanent middle finger.



Ace Face said:


> Okay, first of all, your hair fucking rocks! Not everyone is so blessed. For curly hair like that, be sure to always use some sort of moisturizing shampoo and conditioner on your hair. Make sure that your ends get slathered in conditioner love. After that, apply a curl defining cream of some sort. This will help you make your kinky hair (hehe) more pronounced. Try not to overdo it though. The more product of that sort that you put in your hair, the more at risk you will be for it falling out once you start to diffuse it with a blow dryer. Have you ever used a diffuser before? It works wonders for curly hair. Scrunch it up and bunch it up using the diffuser and your hands. After you're done diffusing it, you can use an anti-frizz serum to get all the little fly-away hairs under control. It will look amazing, I assure you!
> 
> Well, at least she had the balls to tell you she's taught you all that she can... she's not ripping you off to teach you the same things over and over again. If your voice hasn't reached a level that you like yet, then keep practicing and using the techniques she taught you. It will definitely change over time. For what it's worth, your voice sounded very feminine to me  Lovely!


People say that about my hair all the time and all I see is my sisters with straight hair, they wake up, run a brush through it a few times, then *poof*, go about their day with shiny long hair effortlessly. It's infuriating. I heard a clarifying shampoo every so often helps to get rid of all product and sets the 'restart button' on it. Is that needed? I've not used a diffuser, just roundbrush and blowdryer, but my stylist showed using it once and the texture it made was weird.


----------



## Entropic

Playful Proxy said:


> What do you mean by speech pattern? Can you elaborate?


Communication challenges – Gender patterns in talking:


----------



## Jennywocky

Do the 30% that say you almost sound like a gay guy know you are trans? Just curious.

Honestly, I work in tech, 50/50 gender split, and you don't sound any different than a confident detached matter of fact techie woman. If you want to sound more stereotypically feminine with the emotive sounding femm speech patterns, then you can keep working; but you do fall within the parameters of a natural and authentic subset of women already IMO.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

@Playful Proxy your hair is gorgeous and feminine and your voice sounds very feminine to me 

when it comes to clothes advice, I feel like that's kind of hard to give without knowing what your style is (I think I remember once you said you are a jeans and tshirt kind of girl?), but just going by generalizations- aka you probably want to enhance curves- I think a simple and easy style trick is a somewhat loose top cinched with a belt. The belt helps enhance that feminine shape by creating contrast between the waist and where the shirt material poofs out a bit above and below (basically adds a bit of bust and hip), and with 3 tops and 2 belts you've got 18 different looks right there that can be combined with pretty much any jeans/pants you already have.

I image searched "belted top" and highlighted one I thought was nicely feminine without being "girlie"- the soft material and flow-y sleeves add a lot of femininity without being loud or over the top or too young

https://www.google.com/search?q=bel...34CgHY&biw=1280&bih=638#imgrc=_HJi_0GUEAvOEM:


----------



## Sara Torailles

Commander_Luna said:


> Ya know, there is such a thing as bigender. There's pretty much everything now. Also, me not wanting to is partially an INFP thing. We don't like telling people about our true selves. In my case, I can do it over the internet just fine thanks to anonymity.


Yeah, but "okay" for me at that point was...

Constantly suicidal, depressed, and numb, waiting for some little spark of gender euphoria to coarse through me. The "okay" was feeling too tired to have the energy to be sad. There's that little voice in the back of your head saying "something's wrong".

If I have some level of male or other gender identity, it's on the level of negligible.


----------



## Commander_Luna

Ok, what on Earth is a Groupon?


----------



## Metalize

I am in love with this haircut.

* *

















Fits my hair type perfectly. But after going through mostly mid-back to lower-back length hair my whole life, I'm scared to take that plunge. But, gotta start somewhere.


----------



## Tetsuo Shima

I would also like to point out that your mileage my vary with androgyny, and my hair and clothes would have definitely been considered masculine 200 years ago.


----------



## Metalize

Ugh. If any FTMs wouldn't mind answering this probably countlessly-asked question... how did you come to realize, with finality, that you were transgendered? I understand what dysphoria is, but at what point did all those rationalizations actually break down? What mental/cognitive effects did you experience from T?


----------



## Entropic

Metasentient said:


> Ugh. If any FTMs wouldn't mind answering this probably countlessly-asked question... how did you come to realize, with finality, that you were transgendered? I understand what dysphoria is, but at what point did all those rationalizations actually break down? What mental/cognitive effects did you experience from T?


I realize I was after undergoing surgery which removed my gonads and I realized that this was like a dream came true. It forced me to think about why I felt that way, as I realized my perception of the event was likely uncommon, especially for someone my age. It forced me to rethink a lot of my past life experiences as well, and why I always felt so discontent with my body and my gender. 

Taking T didn't really change anything except giving me a crazy libido for the first few weeks. I still have a much higher libido now than I used to, but I think I suffered from hormonal imbalances prior to taking T as well, due to a medical condition I had, which is what forced me to undergo surgery in the first place. 

A lot of the personality changes that occurred after T, especially getting a much shorter fuse, were changes that were already naturally occurring due to unlocking parts of my personality that for some reason had been repressed or remained more dormant, so it wasn't caused by T as this was a progressive development that occurred naturally and spontaneously either way. T may have quickened it up, though.


----------



## Metalize

Thank you for writing up your personal answer. The last paragraph appears especially interesting, particularly in the personality development (or probably more like "naturalizing") becoming quicker. It's been a very chafing sense of being suppressed or somehow forcibly restrained in some way since I was around 13 (in addition to things just being "wrong"), and as time goes I realize that it's actually not some sociological/psychological issue of mine, not really in the usual sense. More of a conflict between (what appear to be) certain innate neurobiological components that aren't as integrated as they should be, which I believe is the effect of messed up hormones (mines are with PCOS, at least), though of course I'm really being vague/abstract in my understanding.


----------



## Entropic

Metasentient said:


> Thank you for writing up your personal answer. The last paragraph appears especially interesting, particularly in the personality development (or probably more like "naturalizing") becoming quicker. It's been a very chafing sense of being suppressed or somehow forcibly restrained in some way since I was around 13 (in addition to things just being "wrong"), and as time goes I realize that it's actually not some sociological/psychological issue of mine, not really in the usual sense. More of a conflict between (what appear to be) certain innate neurobiological components that aren't as integrated as they should be, which I believe is the effect of messed up hormones (mines are with PCOS, at least), though of course I'm really being vague/abstract in my understanding.


I should add that my personality changes had nothing to do with conforming to gender stereotypes. They are unrelated.


----------



## EternalFrost

Hey, I'm a cis girl and I am dating a super cute, smart, goofy trans girl. I love her lots <3 Yeah, that's all.


----------



## Jennywocky

EternalFrost said:


> Hey, I'm a cis girl and I am dating a super cute, smart, goofy trans girl. I love her lots <3 Yeah, that's all.


Nice avatar.


----------



## Playful Proxy

So...I went out in public recently...I am sorta-kinda figuring out curly hair? I think? *throws things* 


* *

















"But you arn't wearing makeup!" Hush, better none than done badly!


----------



## Ace Face

Playful Proxy said:


> So...I went out in public recently...I am sorta-kinda figuring out curly hair? I think? *throws things*
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "But you aren't wearing makeup!" Hush, better none than done badly!


Hehe, the hair looks cute! And nobody does their make-up well at first. Have you been practicing in private at all?


----------



## Playful Proxy

Ace Face said:


> Hehe, the hair looks cute! And nobody does their make-up well at first. Have you been practicing in private at all?


Some. I've not started on anything like foundation/concealer/contouring type stuff though and I've been told to avoid eyeliner as my eyes highlight themselves just fine. Though if I'm totally honest, while I know it'd help my appearance a lot, part of me thinks if I can go in public looking half-normal without it, I'm partially tempted to keep it that way. It's a pain to put on and remove. Make up for it in other ways that requires less...daily maintenance.


----------



## Ace Face

Playful Proxy said:


> Some. I've not started on anything like foundation/concealer/blush type stuff though and I've been told to avoid eyeliner as my eyes highlight themselves just fine. Though if I'm totally honest, while I know it'd help my appearance a lot, part of me thinks if I can go in public looking half-normal without it, I'm partially tempted to keep it that way. It's a pain to put on and remove. Make up for it in other ways that requires less...daily maintenance.


You do have a naturally pretty face. You can definitely pull off the whole no make-up look. And it would be cheaper in the long run and free up some time. Whatever you decide, I'll support the shit out of you


----------



## Maedalaane

Ayyyy. Neutral in the house. 


You all seem like fabulous people.


----------



## Entropic

Playful Proxy said:


> Some. I've not started on anything like foundation/concealer/contouring type stuff though and I've been told to avoid eyeliner as my eyes highlight themselves just fine. Though if I'm totally honest, while I know it'd help my appearance a lot, part of me thinks if I can go in public looking half-normal without it, I'm partially tempted to keep it that way. It's a pain to put on and remove. Make up for it in other ways that requires less...daily maintenance.


Like Ace Face wrote, if you want to use makeup I'd go for the natural look for you, anyway. I think anything else would look very poor, given your face. Some people look great in extravagant makeup, some don't. I would recommend getting maybe some femme earrings or necklace though. A small chain with a jewel or similar would highlight your features well, and help you to pass a little better, too, if you are still worried about that. You want something very small and discreet, though.


----------



## Amphoteric

It's kind of odd to think that in a little over a year, I'll be post-transition. As in, no more having to dedicate so much time and energy into my medical transition, and I can finally move on with life.

I had a hysterectomy about a month ago, and now I'm on the waiting list for a consult for bottom surgery. While I realistically know the expectations, I do wish that I could feel more satisfied about where I'm headed, but I don't really have a choice...if I don't get surgery, I think my dysphoria will continue to exacerbate. I hope that once it's done, I will feel much better. For now, I'm in an odd holding pattern, contemplating where to go from here and how to cope in the meantime. Otherwise, life has been the same as always, somewhat bland and irregular, but I prefer the mundane at times over the stress that has come with enduring these obstacles.


----------



## Entropic

Was on consultation for top surgery today @Ace Face. Was very short and brief. Measured the stuff, discussed surgical options very briefly and the potential issues of those options. Happy to know that they are doing liposuction though I wish they could offer a more thorough version of it.


----------



## Ace Face

Entropic said:


> Was on consultation for top surgery today @_Ace Face_. Was very short and brief. Measured the stuff, discussed surgical options very briefly and the potential issues of those options. Happy to know that they are doing liposuction though I wish they could offer a more thorough version of it.


Woooooah! OMG! 










This is great news! Thank you for updating me. I had no idea today was the day!  
How are you feeling about it?


----------



## Entropic

Ace Face said:


> Woooooah! OMG!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is great news! Thank you for updating me. I had no idea today was the day!
> How are you feeling about it?


Not that different more than weirded out by having to undress but I'm kind of used to doctors by now. It just sucks I may have to wait until next year until I can have it but I already knew this.


----------



## Jennywocky

Amphoteric said:


> It's kind of odd to think that in a little over a year, I'll be post-transition. As in, no more having to dedicate so much time and energy into my medical transition, and I can finally move on with life.


It's definitely kind of weird. Nice, but... when you carry an intense pain all your life, to find it gone is just rather bizarre. (Not that all the issues related to it are gone, you still have those, but the primary issue of not feeling at one with your body will likely at least fade.)

One struggle I had when I finished was that I had finally finished a "great work" in my life -- something that had consumed my energies and efforts for so long -- and suddenly now that I no longer had it to drive me, it was like... "wait... what now?" Maybe some people will not experience that, but I have, and I'm still working to find things to pursue in my life now that the painful unrest that plagued me has been removed. Freedom is wonderful but it does mean making choices about what comes next.


----------



## Ace Face

Entropic said:


> Not that different more than weirded out by having to undress but I'm kind of used to doctors by now. It just sucks I may have to wait until next year until I can have it but I already knew this.


Geez. Why the long wait?


----------



## Entropic

Ace Face said:


> Geez. Why the long wait?


Because I'm getting it through the public healthcare since I'm not paying anything for it. It would undoubtly go faster if I could get it privately, though I also think there are a lot less qualified and experienced surgeons in the private care when it comes to these things, since here, trans issues are handled by the public healthcare.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

So I'm working on my voice, expanding my range and working on my tone and stuff. I just recorded both of these right now for contrast. I used the exact same effect (light reverb) on each so the difference is really just how I'm using my voice (obviously there's a pitch difference, but I also think tone?). Also, *my apologies cuz I'm not a great singer*. But I think my low voice is coming along pretty well... Anyway this is just kinda an interesting experiment for me, to see how different I can get my voice on my own, see if I like it, see if it's believable... would be interested in others' perceptions on that and whether you'd think those voices came from the same person

Vocaroo | Voice message

Vocaroo | Voice message


----------



## Entropic

lolthevoidlol said:


> So I'm working on my voice, expanding my range and working on my tone and stuff. I just recorded both of these right now for contrast. I used the exact same effect (light reverb) on each so the difference is really just how I'm using my voice (obviously there's a pitch difference, but I also think tone?). Also, *my apologies cuz I'm not a great singer*. But I think my low voice is coming along pretty well... Anyway this is just kinda an interesting experiment for me, to see how different I can get my voice on my own, see if I like it, see if it's believable... would be interested in others' perceptions on that and whether you'd think those voices came from the same person
> 
> Vocaroo | Voice message
> 
> Vocaroo | Voice message


First definitely sounds like a boy for most of the part. Good job. How does it work with your vocal chords? I tried to speak lower but I just ended up straining so badly I had to quit speaking at all eventually for quite a while.


----------



## Jennywocky

lolthevoidlol said:


> So I'm working on my voice, expanding my range and working on my tone and stuff. I just recorded both of these right now for contrast. I used the exact same effect (light reverb) on each so the difference is really just how I'm using my voice (obviously there's a pitch difference, but I also think tone?). Also, *my apologies cuz I'm not a great singer*. But I think my low voice is coming along pretty well... Anyway this is just kinda an interesting experiment for me, to see how different I can get my voice on my own, see if I like it, see if it's believable... would be interested in others' perceptions on that and whether you'd think those voices came from the same person



Haha! I thought the links were in the reverse order. So I listened to the first and thought, "But he already sounded like a guy -- sounds like a very nice high tenor. so what's he worried about?" Then I heard the second and started laughing... oops.

No, I honestly wouldn't recognize them as the same person at all. The pitch itself is pretty different to start with. To me, they do sound like two different people, even if I hadn't known up front.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Entropic said:


> First definitely sounds like a boy for most of the part. Good job. How does it work with your vocal chords? I tried to speak lower but I just ended up straining so badly I had to quit speaking at all eventually for quite a while.


I've just been singing a lot in the deepest register I can. It definitely tires my voice quicker than singing in my usual register, but not as quickly as just plain speaking lower. Singing exercises limber things up I guess? I'm kinda hoping that just by singing lots it will kind of bleed over into my speaking voice a bit.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Jennywocky said:


> Haha! I thought the links were in the reverse order. So I listened to the first and thought, "But he already sounded like a guy -- sounds like a very nice high tenor. so what's he worried about?" Then I heard the second and started laughing... oops.
> 
> No, I honestly wouldn't recognize them as the same person at all. The pitch itself is pretty different to start with. To me, they do sound like two different people, even if I hadn't known up front.


cool ^_^

I have musician friends who talk about getting me to add vocals to things and I really like the idea of being able to add either masculine or feminine vocals (as opposed to just high or low) as needed.


----------



## Entropic

lolthevoidlol said:


> I've just been singing a lot in the deepest register I can. It definitely tires my voice quicker than singing in my usual register, but not as quickly as just plain speaking lower. Singing exercises limber things up I guess? I'm kinda hoping that just by singing lots it will kind of bleed over into my speaking voice a bit.


Yeah definitely. Really good Japanese voice actors often end up doing both genders but usually female actors voicing adolescent boys. I don't have any name from the top of my head, but you could look up into it. They must be doing something that allows them to speak that way without damaging their chords because I'm pretty sure they aren't distorting it.

Edit
Actually I think the voice actor for Japanese Tidus from FFXis female but don't take my word for it.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Entropic said:


> Yeah definitely. Really good Japanese voice actors often end up doing both genders but usually female actors voicing adolescent boys. I don't have any name from the top of my head, but you could look up into it. They must be doing something that allows them to speak that way without damaging their chords because I'm pretty sure they aren't distorting it.
> 
> Edit
> Actually I think the voice actor for Japanese Tidus from FFXis female but don't take my word for it.


that actually reminds me that voice acting has always been something I've been interested in. I'm sure expanding my range like this would only help if I wanted to pursue that...


----------



## Entropic

@lolthevoidlol edit again I checked it and I was thinking about black star from soul eater. His voice actor is called yumiko and is female born. Btw if you find some clips of him you'd never figure that was the case. It sounds very authentic.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Entropic said:


> @_lolthevoidlol_ edit again I checked it and I was thinking about black star from soul eater. His voice actor is called yumiko and is female born. Btw if you find some clips of him you'd never figure that was the case. It sounds very authentic.


holy crap I can't get close to imitating that in speaking voice. more practice!


----------



## Jennywocky

lolthevoidlol said:


> that actually reminds me that voice acting has always been something I've been interested in. I'm sure expanding my range like this would only help if I wanted to pursue that...


There's a young M2F i'm acquaintances with who did voice dubbing for games and stuff (professional) before transition and still does stuff now.... not sure if she has used both ends of the spectrum in the same product...


----------



## Jennywocky

Falling in (and Out of) Love Is Complicated When You're Transgender



> Bologno, 27, works at Do Something, a digital organization that helps young people push for social change through social media and text messaging. For Bologno, the text was a way to both come out publicly and start a conversation about being young and transgender. But before coming out to the world, Bologno had to talk to his girlfriend, Tile Wolfe. "I just started crying," says Wolfe, remembering the moment Bologno said he wanted to start taking hormones to transition from female to male. "Not because I was sad, but because this was suddenly so real."
> 
> Wolfe, 23, has lived in New York for five years and has always identified as a lesbian. She met Bologno four years ago while standing in line for the bathroom at Metropolitan, a grimy gay bar in Brooklyn. "I said something like, 'I hope to meet you again in a less gross place,'" Bologno recalls. Wolfe remembers the moment as "deeply corny." They've been living together for two years now, alongside Buddha, their chubby gray cat. "We're so in love," Wolfe says, blushing.
> 
> Like Wolfe and Bologno, there are hundreds of couples across the country with one or both members transitioning. And while transgender celebrities like Caitlyn Jenner and Laverne Cox have offered profound insights into what a transitioning individual goes through, there is little out there concerning what it's like to transition as a couple, or even what it's like to date as a transgender person or fall in love. "It's quite common for trans people to wonder, Will anyone love me?" says Walter Bockting, a psychiatrist and co-director of the LGBT Health Initiative at Columbia University....



Kind of makes me wish I was twenty years younger. The Gen Y/Z/younger crowd seems much more comfortable and less hung up on jamming everyone into a few broad categories. I feel like older people tend to start with the labels and try to fit their experiences and feelings into the categories somehow, instead of just going with what they're actually perceiving or feeling and embracing that without worrying about the category.

For example, if you are attracted to someone and enjoy being with them, why not just go with it instead of worrying about what that might label you as? Instead, we get people who identify with labels who reject self-experiences that don't conform to the labels they want to wear. It seems like a very backwards way to approach things, and not prone to lead to self-fulfillment... you're rejecting the organic/intuitive for compliance to an external system.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Jennywocky said:


> Falling in (and Out of) Love Is Complicated When You're Transgender
> 
> 
> Kind of makes me wish I was twenty years younger. The Gen Y/Z/younger crowd seems much more comfortable and less hung up on jamming everyone into a few broad categories. I feel like older people tend to start with the labels and try to fit their experiences and feelings into the categories somehow, instead of just going with what they're actually perceiving or feeling and embracing that without worrying about the category.
> 
> For example, if you are attracted to someone and enjoy being with them, why not just go with it instead of worrying about what that might label you as? Instead, we get people who identify with labels who reject self-experiences that don't conform to the labels they want to wear. It seems like a very backwards way to approach things, and not prone to lead to self-fulfillment... you're rejecting the organic/intuitive for compliance to an external system.


Younger generations box themselves in all the time, hell, they take pride in it. The difference is, they're making up new boxes to put themselves in to feel special. Instead of, "If I love this person, I may be gay", it's just turned into, "I'm a demi-panromantic asexual with OCD and bipolar tendencies and I love him". Damn, for you to be a random stranger, I"d just like to say I REALLY don't care, snowflake. If you love him, you love him, no need for all the labels. Just say you love him and be done with it.

tl;dr: Seriously done with all the fucking labels.


----------



## Jennywocky

Playful Proxy said:


> Younger generations box themselves in all the time, hell, they take pride in it. The difference is, they're making up new boxes to put themselves in to feel special. Instead of, "If I love this person, I may be gay", it's just turned into, "I'm a demi-panromantic asexual with OCD and bipolar tendencies and I love him". Damn, for you to be a random stranger, I"d just like to say I REALLY don't care, snowflake. *If you love him, you love him, no need for all the labels. Just say you love him and be done with it.*
> 
> tl;dr: Seriously done with all the fucking labels.


Bolded -- yes, yes, fucking yes. Why do people always have to go back to labels? We just confuse and derail our best intentions all the time, sigh.


----------



## AesSidhe

I currently have a crush on a transgirl (and I know she likes me too), I can't stop thinking about her, whenever I close my eyes I see her face and gorgeous smile <3


----------



## Strayfire

AesSidhe said:


> I currently have a crush on a transgirl (and I know she likes me too), I can't stop thinking about her, whenever I close my eyes I see her face and gorgeous smile <3


Congrats! I hope you two really hit it off


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

AesSidhe said:


> I currently have a crush on a transgirl (and I know she likes me too), I can't stop thinking about her, whenever I close my eyes I see her face and gorgeous smile <3


Welcome to being in love with a transperson :3


----------



## Ace Face

Entropic said:


> The best part is how we, the discriminated, should accept their "rights". Rofl.


The best part is that people bitch that they want acceptance, but display intolerance to other groups. Rofl. Oh wait, that's not funny.


----------



## Jennywocky

Lucifel said:


> I am of the opinion that if you hide nobody will ever accept the difference. But I am not trans and I am a girl so what do I know?


I think the only way for acceptance to increase is for more and more people to actually know transsexuals and gender-variants personally; it's exactly the way any kind of fear is overcome, regardless of sexual preference or race/culture or religion or whatever else. People can imagine the worst of people they've never met, when they have nothing to go on but hearsay, but once they establish personal experience, that will modify their thinking for good or bad.

It's why we saw such a huge shift in the gay marriage issue over a space of only 20 years; at some point, the number of folks who knew a gay person (and/or one in a committed relationship) hit critical mass. The number of people who actually know a trans person IRL has doubled based on the most recent surveys (8% to 16%), but that's still not a high number altogether. Still, the best way for the collective to benefit is for people to know trans people.

The problem is that often it's not good for the _individual _to be out, even if it's good for the collective (and so it really has to be an individual's choice as to how "out" they plan to be). The environment has improved, at least; pretty much it was professional and social death (if not literal) to be out back in the 70-80's. There are some protections now, and social support, so you can be out now if you are perceive as part of mainstream without it necessarily ruining you. But USA culture (for example) hasn't really yet accepted variants who visibly break the gender boxes; as long as you fit in one of the two known categories, you're generally okay depending on where you live but otherwise the response will be unpredictable.


----------



## AesSidhe

@Jennywocky I totally agree. When they're talking to us online they can just imagine they're talking to this ugly fat dude with a wig and a dress that looks nothing like a girl, but if we'd be having this same conversation in real life they'd be checking us out in a sexual way xDDDD

That's just one of the fundamental problems when it comes to non-personal interaction


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Ace Face said:


> The best part is that people bitch that they want acceptance, but display intolerance to other groups. Rofl. Oh wait, that's not funny.


attempting to compare those who want acceptance of their basic human rights to those who want acceptance of their malicious attitudes is simply ludicrous


----------



## Ace Face

lolthevoidlol said:


> attempting to compare those who want acceptance of their basic human rights to those who want acceptance of their malicious attitudes is simply ludicrous


Calling out an entire group of people with one label, in this case "right-wingers", and then labeling them bigots doesn't exactly make you less of one. What I quoted from EternalFrost a page or two ago would fall under the category of _discrimination_. I'm all for GLBTQA rights, but it's not cool to push for acceptance and then show discrimination against a WHOLE group of people. It's really counter-intuitive.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Ace Face said:


> Calling out an entire group of people with one label, in this case "right-wingers", and then labeling them bigots doesn't exactly make you less of one. What I quoted from EternalFrost a page or two ago would fall under the category of _discrimination_. I'm all for GLBTQA rights, but it's not cool to push for acceptance and then show discrimination against a WHOLE group of people. It's really counter-intuitive.





EternalFrost said:


> I've noticed the rise in more right-winged users posting and being utter bigots in other parts of the forum.


I see nothing about this statement that says *all* right wingers. To me it parses as "I've seen more bigoted posts from people who are right wing recently". Even if my parsing is incorrect, the statement still only refers to those people who were posting and not the entire group of people who are right wing.

Also, the word you're looking for is prejudice, not discrimination. Prejudice is having a negative attitude towards a group, and an attitude is a feeling. Discrimination refers to behavior meant to elevate/lower a group in relation to another group. Frost expressed his frustration (a feeling) at the content of those posts. No where did he advocate any particular behavior (in contrast to those posts which apparently advocated genocide of poor people). And whether or not Frost's expression of frustration was prejudice depends on whether you choose to interpret his post as about an entire group rather than the posters he was referring to who were also right wing.


----------



## Ace Face

lolthevoidlol said:


> I see nothing about this statement that says *all* right wingers. To me it parses as "I've seen more bigoted posts from people who are right wing recently". Even if my parsing is incorrect, the statement still only refers to those people who were posting and not the entire group of people who are right wing.


That might be true. I haven't gone back to read his post since, but it would appear I'm not the only person who perceived it this way. Either way, there's no harm in what's happened since then. Unless you don't agree with the general concept of what I've said, there should be no problem. 



> Also, the word you're looking for is prejudice, not discrimination. Prejudice is having a negative attitude towards a group, and an attitude is a feeling. Discrimination refers to behavior meant to elevate/lower a group in relation to another group.


Spank me real hard, void. I used the wrong word... what's my punishment 



> Frost expressed his frustration (a feeling) at the content of those posts. No where did he advocate any particular behavior (in contrast to those posts which apparently advocated genocide of poor people). And whether or not Frost's expression of frustration was prejudice depends on whether you choose to interpret his post as about an entire group rather than the posters he was referring to who were also right wing.


You might be right, but again, I really don't care enough to go back and read. Like I said above, unless you disagree with the general concept of what I stated above, I don't see how this is a productive or useful conversation. Any continuation of this conversation past this point is liable to be tit for tat nitpicking, and already kinda has been on your part thus far. I have no interest in it.


----------



## Entropic

Hi all,

I have been thinking about making a homepage similar to Amazon for trans people where trans people can sell, trade and buy items specifically for trans people. The goal of the site would be twofold:

1. Make it possible for private trans people to trade their used trans gear and clothing that they no longer need to other trans people who need them;
2. Organize so most major (and lesser) sellers of transwear that we find online today, are reachable on one clickable site as opposed to needing to keep track of multiples.

My question to you all is whether this is something that you would be interested in? Would you use this, for example, and to what extent?

And to clarify if someone would raise that question, no, medicine that requires prescription i.e. hormones, would not be allowed on the site, for obvious reasons. There may be information available of where to get in touch with someone who can prescribe you safe hormones on the site, but hormones in themselves would be disallowed.


----------



## EternalFrost

PC isn't notifying me of replies...

@_Ace Face_

Oh god. Why are you being so salty because I didn't SPECIFY that not ALL right-winged people are bigoted. I love that you took that away from what I said. 

White people are racist. 
Cis people are transphobic. 
Straight people are homophobic. 
Right-wingers are bigots. 
Men are sexist.

Do you think people who say these things don't _KNOW _that it's not all people in said generalization? 
You know why people don't add *some* or *most* before these things? Because it gives people in that group who might be doing said oppressive thing an excuse not to care about whats being said because they automatically think "Well, they aren't talking about me." Maybe you don't know this but people who are racist, transphobic, sexist etc, dont even realize they are doing/saying things that are offensive. By not using "some" or whatever other relief marker you so clearly desire, these people might actually feel compelled to read what is said. The people it doesn't apply to will move on unhindered because *the writer wasn't talking to them/you.*

Why do allies feel the need to be validated and patted on the back every second of every statement that's not even about them? 
Annoying. 

I'm going to continue using generalizations for the above reasons. Because your minor salt doesn't matter when actual bigots and excusing themselves because "Ohh only some people, not meeeee~~~ "


----------



## Ace Face

Sometimes, shit is so ridiculous it doesn't even warrant a real response. Channeling my energy back to something useful in 3...2...1...


----------



## Entropic

EternalFrost said:


> PC isn't notifying me of replies...
> 
> @_Ace Face_
> 
> Oh god. Why are you being so salty because I didn't SPECIFY that not ALL right-winged people are bigoted. I love that you took that away from what I said.
> 
> White people are racist.
> Cis people are transphobic.
> Straight people are homophobic.
> Right-wingers are bigots.
> Men are sexist.
> 
> Do you think people who say these things don't _KNOW _that it's not all people in said generalization?
> You know why people don't add *some* or *most* before these things? Because it gives people in that group who might be doing said oppressive thing an excuse not to care about whats being said because they automatically think "Well, they aren't talking about me." Maybe you don't know this but people who are racist, transphobic, sexist etc, dont even realize they are doing/saying things that are offensive. By not using "some" or whatever other relief marker you so clearly desire, these people might actually feel compelled to read what is said. The people it doesn't apply to will move on unhindered because *the writer wasn't talking to them/you.*
> 
> Why do allies feel the need to be validated and patted on the back every second of every statement that's not even about them?
> Annoying.
> 
> I'm going to continue using generalizations for the above reasons. Because your minor salt doesn't matter when actual bigots and excusing themselves because "Ohh only some people, not meeeee~~~ "


I really don't understand why generalizations would somehow legitimate your reasoning since if they are as oblivious as they claim, they wouldn't notice either way or feel targeted. It just comes across as needless simplification and why do we need them? The problem people have with respect is exactly that they try to simplify reality into a binary.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Entropic said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have been thinking about making a homepage similar to Amazon for trans people where trans people can sell, trade and buy items specifically for trans people. The goal of the site would be twofold:
> 
> 1. Make it possible for private trans people to trade their used trans gear and clothing that they no longer need to other trans people who need them;
> 2. Organize so most major (and lesser) sellers of transwear that we find online today, are reachable on one clickable site as opposed to needing to keep track of multiples.
> 
> My question to you all is whether this is something that you would be interested in? Would you use this, for example, and to what extent?
> 
> And to clarify if someone would raise that question, no, medicine that requires prescription i.e. hormones, would not be allowed on the site, for obvious reasons. There may be information available of where to get in touch with someone who can prescribe you safe hormones on the site, but hormones in themselves would be disallowed.


Do it. Just do it please.


----------



## Entropic

Lucifel said:


> Do it. Just do it please.


Doesn't seem to be much interested in this. Most people seem to remain skeptical. The only other option I'm considering right now is to make it more like Pricerunner.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Entropic said:


> Doesn't seem to be much interested in this. Most people seem to remain skeptical. The only other option I'm considering right now is to make it more like Pricerunner.


Well, any guide would be useful, to be honest.


----------



## AesSidhe

You know what'd be interesting (not that I have any need of it but for people who're starting transition or don't have a lot of money) MtFs and FtMs trading cloths among each other (if they fit and are still in good quality) from their assigned genders


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

AesSidhe said:


> You know what'd be interesting (not that I have any need of it but for people who're starting transition or don't have a lot of money) MtFs and FtMs trading cloths among each other (if they fit and are still in good quality) from their assigned genders


I can cover that for my boyfriend. I just need to send him most of my t-shirts. They're video game related so he'll look even more manly XD


----------



## Choice

AesSidhe said:


> You know what'd be interesting (not that I have any need of it but for people who're starting transition or don't have a lot of money) MtFs and FtMs trading cloths among each other (if they fit and are still in good quality) from their assigned genders


Already exists on some sites, like
transclothesexchange.tumblr.com
--
+
It is interesting. Every queer week here in Uni we do clothes swaps and there's been a good turnout. We donate all the excess clothing afterwards.


----------



## AesSidhe

Choice said:


> Already exists on some sites, like
> transclothesexchange.tumblr.com
> --
> +
> It is interesting. Every queer week here in Uni we do clothes swaps and there's been a good turnout. We donate all the excess clothing afterwards.


I wish there had been something like that where I grew up


----------



## Playful Proxy

So...officially have a letter from my psych recommending hardcore anti-anxiety medication for my social anxiety. Whoo for my inability to function properly in society without medication? I guess at least that means transition may be less stressful.


----------



## Entropic

AesSidhe said:


> You know what'd be interesting (not that I have any need of it but for people who're starting transition or don't have a lot of money) MtFs and FtMs trading cloths among each other (if they fit and are still in good quality) from their assigned genders


Yes, that was the main purpose, originally, but it seems people rather stick to the venues they know (Tumblr, Facebook etc). Essentially, they don't seem to see any benefit of the site idea even if it would simplify trade for them in the long run, by making it more effective.


----------



## AesSidhe

Playful Proxy said:


> So...officially have a letter from my psych recommending hardcore anti-anxiety medication for my social anxiety. Whoo for my inability to function properly in society without medication? I guess at least that means transition may be less stressful.


I'm happy for you, and I'm even happier for you that you can share it with us in this safe zone on the forum, because I could totally imagine some forum members telling you that you only think you're trans because of your social anxiety *stares intently at certain members*


----------



## Entropic

AesSidhe said:


> I'm happy for you, and I'm even happier for you that you can share it with us in this safe zone on the forum, because I could totally imagine some forum members telling you that you only think you're trans because of your social anxiety *stares intently at certain members*


I opened a thread but in the private section of the support forum about this. I'd like a thoroughly discussion because this is becoming a big problem. People don't seem to purposefully misgender anymore, but they make microaggressions in other ways like the recent suggesting that all trans people are mentally ill and delusional and in need of a reality check. This is seriously not acceptable at any level. They don't have to like trans people, but they sure as hell have no right to express these things either. I don't go whiff my thoughts about what I think about them, I'd be banned again if I did rofl, so equally, they should have no right to do the same about us. 

It's an ongoing trend now that several trans people on this site feel increasingly discriminated against and don't feel it's safe to talk about trans issues outside of this thread anymore. That's a big problem and I hope they will address it.


----------



## AesSidhe

Is it just me or are all INTJs Transphobic/trans-haters? Serious question people, go look at all the people being anti-trans and look at their types, they're (almost) all INTJ xDDDDD

(with the exception being 'Bipedal P 314' who's a INFP. Or is trans-hate just a Te thing?)

I hope I'm not breaking a rule by asking this xDDDD


----------



## Playful Proxy

AesSidhe said:


> Is it just me or are all INTJs Transphobic/trans-haters? Serious question people, go look at all the people being anti-trans and look at their types, they're (almost) all INTJ xDDDDD
> 
> (with the exception being 'Bipedal P 314' who's a INFP. Or is trans-hate just a Te thing?)
> 
> I hope I'm not breaking a rule by asking this xDDDD


Correction: Self-diagnosed INTJs tend to be transphobic. A bunch of men who want to spew off the cuff about how logical they are and how smart they are without actually being INTJ leads to biting at trans folks or anyone they don't understand. Gotta send all that insecurity somewhere, right?


----------



## lolthevoidlol

*is INTJ and trans* 

>.>

<.<

*shuffles feet*


----------



## jeb

AesSidhe said:


> Is it just me or are all INTJs Transphobic/trans-haters? Serious question people, go look at all the people being anti-trans and look at their types, they're (almost) all INTJ xDDDDD
> 
> (with the exception being 'Bipedal P 314' who's a INFP. Or is trans-hate just a Te thing?)
> 
> I hope I'm not breaking a rule by asking this xDDDD


I'd say thats not as accurate. We actually had a thread last year, something like "intj and trans - ask me a question" and it was met pretty respectfully.

There are a lot of trolly jerks who just say they're INTJ as though it will excuse their behavior.

Additionally, I'd be willing to bet that a good percentage of the trans people on perc identity as INTJ.


----------



## dawnfira

AesSidhe said:


> Is it just me or are all INTJs Transphobic/trans-haters? Serious question people, go look at all the people being anti-trans and look at their types, they're (almost) all INTJ xDDDDD
> 
> (with the exception being 'Bipedal P 314' who's a INFP. Or is trans-hate just a Te thing?)
> 
> I hope I'm not breaking a rule by asking this xDDDD



Well, I'm INTJ and I'm certainly not transphobic... I agree that it's probably people who incorrectly self-diagnose themselves as INTJ and so use it as an excuse to use only logic instead of common decency when talking about this subject.


----------



## AesSidhe

dawnfira said:


> Well, I'm INTJ and I'm certainly not transphobic... I agree that it's probably people who incorrectly self-diagnose themselves as INTJ and so use it as an excuse to use only logic instead of common decency when talking about this subject.


But they're not even using logics xDDDD

They're using a stereotypical form of Te, saying that only the physical reality counts. But if this was true some of the most amazing scientific findings would have never been made, because most amazing findings were done on a Ti level and then proven in reality via Te.

That's how you go from: "If they feel like girls trapped in boy bodies, maybe there's a deeper component than just the outer physical body and its sex. Maybe their mind is really a girl, and if their mind is really a girl it should be ably to be spotted in the brain." Ti-person turns in study to investigate the brains of the transgender person. Then Te person studies the brains and comes to the physical conclusion that the brain indeed are different from cis-people, and that this indicates that transgender people have a physical component that proves they are who they say they are.

What these people do is ignore scientific research completely and say: "Their outer physical shell says male, so they are male." without any deeper research. And these people are nicknamed: "The Scientists" ...

So yea, I'm going to follow you guys their opinion and accept that they're probably fake INTJs xDDDD


----------



## dawnfira

AesSidhe said:


> But they're not even using logics xDDDD
> 
> They're using a stereotypical form of Te, saying that only the physical reality counts. But if this was true some of the most amazing scientific findings would have never been made, because most amazing findings were done on a Ti level and then proven in reality via Te.
> 
> That's how you go from: "If they feel like girls trapped in boy bodies, maybe there's a deeper component than just the outer physical body and its sex. Maybe their mind is really a girl, and if their mind is really a girl it should be ably to be spotted in the brain." Ti-person turns in study to investigate the brains of the transgender person. Then Te person studies the brains and comes to the physical conclusion that the brain indeed are different from cis-people, and that this indicates that transgender people have a physical component that proves they are who they say they are.
> 
> What these people do is ignore scientific research completely and say: "Their outer physical shell says male, so they are male." without any deeper research. And these people are nicknamed: "The Scientists" ...
> 
> So yea, I'm going to follow you guys their opinion and accept that they're probably fake INTJs xDDDD


Yeah, I agree that their 'logic' doesn't make sense. Because people don't understand something, they feel the need to prove that these feelings of gender don't exist so they try to create an argument based completely on biology instead of taking everything into account. Biologically, people are male or female, and if you argued like this all the time, you could argue personality types wouldn't exist either. This isn't true and there's a lot more to take into account. 
Basically, not every topic is a scientific one. People aren't born a certain way and then stay that way for life. They grow and learn and decide what they want to be and figure out who they are. Based on what you said, transphobics seem to debase humans to animals. People can make their own choices and if they identify with the opposite gender, that's fine. It doesn't have much to do with science at all. The people with the problem are the transphobics - there is no logical or decent reason to be against transgenders.

But because INTJs are called, as you say "scientists" people would like to be this way as an excuse to be blunt and not take into account how people feel or identify themselves.


----------



## Playful Proxy

To be fair, I've long felt INTPs and INTJs are one of the most mistyped types in pretty much all of MBTI. A lot of people 'test' for INTP or INTJ because that's who they WANT to be, not necessarily who they actually are.


----------



## AesSidhe

Playful Proxy said:


> To be fair, I've long felt INTPs and INTJs are one of the most mistyped types in pretty much all of MBTI. A lot of people 'test' for INTP or INTJ because that's who they WANT to be, not necessarily who they actually are.


Seriously some/most of them sound more like ISTJ instead of INTJ

Edit: Read the introduction page of the ISTJ on this website and suddenly all of their behavior is explained and understood.

http://www.16personalities.com/istj-personality


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

AesSidhe said:


> Is it just me or are all INTJs Transphobic/trans-haters? Serious question people, go look at all the people being anti-trans and look at their types, they're (almost) all INTJ xDDDDD
> 
> (with the exception being 'Bipedal P 314' who's a INFP. Or is trans-hate just a Te thing?)
> 
> I hope I'm not breaking a rule by asking this xDDDD


No personality type is transphobic on its own, personality types are pretty much stereotypes or guiding lines of far more complex personalities (I've been typed as ENFP, INFP, ESFJ, INTP, ENFJ). People's own education, peers and experiences make them think such things.


----------



## Entropic

jeb said:


> I'd say thats not as accurate. We actually had a thread last year, something like "intj and trans - ask me a question" and it was met pretty respectfully.
> 
> There are a lot of trolly jerks who just say they're INTJ as though it will excuse their behavior.
> 
> Additionally, I'd be willing to bet that a good percentage of the trans people on perc identity as INTJ.


You, I, lolthevoidlol, Flatlander and metaplanar, in this thread, at least. Makes us 4 people that I know of. I don't know any others.



Playful Proxy said:


> Correction: Self-diagnosed INTJs tend to be transphobic. A bunch of men who want to spew off the cuff about how logical they are and how smart they are without actually being INTJ leads to biting at trans folks or anyone they don't understand. Gotta send all that insecurity somewhere, right?





dawnfira said:


> Well, I'm INTJ and I'm certainly not transphobic... I agree that it's probably people who incorrectly self-diagnose themselves as INTJ and so use it as an excuse to use only logic instead of common decency when talking about this subject.


Why can't an INTJ be transphobic?


----------



## Playful Proxy

Entropic said:


> You, I, lolthevoidlol, Flatlander and metaplanar, in this thread, at least. Makes us 4 people that I know of. I don't know any others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why can't an INTJ be transphobic?


I don't recall either party saying INTJs were incapable of being transphobic.


----------



## AesSidhe

Let's all just stop about that topic, I should have never made that post and I'm really sorry about it, I didn't intend to start conflict


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

AesSidhe said:


> Let's all just stop about that topic, I should have never made that post and I'm really sorry about it, I didn't intend to start conflict


Discussions are not conflicts. Nobody is hitting each other this. It is important to have such talks and clean these sterotypes. Because "normal" people are not the only ones that descrimate and judgr based on sterotypes, everyone does it.


----------



## Doran Seth

.


----------



## dawnfira

Entropic said:


> Why can't an INTJ be transphobic?


Never said that. I was just responding to the question "are all INTJs transphobic?" 

It's safe to assume that the poster has therefore heard transphobic comments from many INTJs. But it's unlikely that one type is more transphobic than any other. Personality types are the basis of a person, we're all pretty different. Being an INTJ doesn't determine whether you're transphobic or not, whether you're decent or not. I was just agreeing that the cold, logical stereotype of INTJs was probably attractive for transphobics to latch on to to explain their reasoning. 

And AesSidhe, don't worry about conflict. I don't think anyone is particularly offended. ^_^


----------



## Entropic

No, no one explicitly suggested it but implying they are mistypes seems to suggest that it kind of does. I actually don't think most of them are mistyped so it's kind of moot.

See, I do think thinkers in general are more likely to be phobic in the sense that they have greater issues to understand and empathize with the side they are being discriminating against and the behavior and reasoning is consistent with that. Being a thinker doesn't mean you can't be dumb or lacking nuanced thinking.


----------



## dawnfira

Entropic said:


> No, no one explicitly suggested it but implying they are mistypes seems to suggest that it kind of does. I actually don't think most of them are mistyped so it's kind of moot.
> 
> See, I do think thinkers in general are more likely to be phobic in the sense that they have greater issues to understand and empathize with the side they are being discriminating against and the behavior and reasoning is consistent with that. Being a thinker doesn't mean you can't be dumb or lacking nuanced thinking.


Ok, I can see how that was implied then. Didn't mean to. A lot of people could be mistypes or they might not. I just don't understand why a large number of INTJs would be transphobic because whether you're an INTJ or any other personality type doesn't determine if you're transphobic or not. 

Imo, depends on what you were taught. I don't think being phobic stems from logical conclusions - I think it's an internalised fear so more of a feeling. I get what you're saying about thinkers but there are no logical/scientific reasons to be transphobic etc. I'm not saying feelers have a greater tendency to be a phobic, but I believe these feelings tend to come from a person's experiences themselves rather than how they process these experiences. If a mature thinker were to come up with some logical conclusions to why transgenders don't make sense, I don't think they'd feel particularly bothered by it or feel the need to argue with someone about it. Transphobia is a _phobia_. There's a fear behind it, not a logical argument.

Some thinkers can have a lack of empathy when presenting an argument, but without the phobia acting as a driving force, I don't see why many would bother to express their opinions against transgenders. It's quite obvious that the topic is very personal and relates to identity. 
But you're right in saying being a thinker doesn't prevent stupidity. Maybe some thinkers don't realise that empathy is important in this case.


----------



## AesSidhe

You know being this active in all these topics did give me a good chance to really learn and realize that I'm really an ENFJ. Until recently I was still kind of unsure about that retyping, but now I really get it, and I'm really happy with it ^^


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

AesSidhe said:


> You know being this active in all these topics did give me a good chance to really learn and realize that I'm really an ENFJ. Until recently I was still kind of unsure about that retyping, but now I really get it, and I'm really happy with it ^^


Nice? I dunno how one notices that. Being in discussions only made me doubt more about being an ENFP but if I am not one I dunno what I am.


----------



## AesSidhe

Lucifel said:


> Nice? I dunno how one notices that. Being in discussions only made me doubt more about being an ENFP but if I am not one I dunno what I am.


Being in those topics has made me very aware of my Fe and Ni


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

AesSidhe said:


> Don't infractions expire after a month? This is a serious question, because I'm not sure about it.
> 
> Edit: LOL there are 2 pages of infractions XDDDD


They usually do. You can also put members that annoy you on ignore. Its better than leaving a whole site.


----------



## AesSidhe

Lucifel said:


> They usually do. You can also put members that annoy you on ignore. Its better than leaving a whole site.


I'm already in the progress of asking Jennywocky to put my account on retired ...

Edit: This will also include a request to delete my recent topics


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

AesSidhe said:


> I'm already in the progress of asking Jennywocky to put my account on retired ...
> 
> Edit: This will also include a request to delete my recent topics


Your choice. You could always ask about seperation agreements but do what you want.


----------



## Jennywocky

Derail removed.

... responded to your PM earlier. Get back to me when you can. I'm in and out all day today due to car problems to resolve and prior commitments to kids as I mentioned, but hopefully things can be resolved in a way that is more satisfactory for you. I was hoping to help push things forward today but due to all the fires I'm fighting it isn't going to happen.


----------



## Playful Proxy

AesSidhe said:


> I'm already in the progress of asking Jennywocky to put my account on retired ...
> 
> Edit: This will also include a request to delete my recent topics


Why are you retiring? nooooo. And what the heck was that derail?! o.o


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Playful Proxy said:


> Why are you retiring? nooooo. And what the heck was that derail?! o.o


Some idiot wanting to shitpost the forum.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

The Dominican Republic village where little girls turn into boys aged 12 - Telegraph


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Germany To Allow Parents To Choose No Gender For Babies On Birth Certificates


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

lolthevoidlol said:


> Germany To Allow Parents To Choose No Gender For Babies On Birth Certificates


That makes me question... How do I address you?


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Lucifel said:


> That makes me question... How do I address you?


most people here call me Void. my pronouns are whatever neutral pronoun you think you can use consistently. most people go with they/them/their or the variant ey/em/eir, but if you're more familiar/used to a different set that's fine too.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

lolthevoidlol said:


> most people here call me Void. my pronouns are whatever neutral pronoun you think you can use consistently. most people go with they/them/their or the variant ey/em/eir, but if you're more familiar/used to a different set that's fine too.


My language has no neutral pronouns nor I was taught that neutral pronouns can be used for people in English, I'm wired to see everything gendered because in my native language every single word is either female or male. In German is even more complex because it's almost random which gender words are and every word in the plural is a female word.

See what I mean?


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Lucifel said:


> My language has no neutral pronouns nor I was taught that neutral pronouns can be used for people in English, I'm wired to see everything gendered because in my native language every single word is either female or male. In German is even more complex because it's almost random which gender words are and every word in the plural is a female word.
> 
> See what I mean?


luckily languages can and do change constantly


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

lolthevoidlol said:


> luckily languages can and do change constantly


You realize that takes a long time, don't you? It's not just because you wish it to change that will change. Sometimes it takes a whole generation for changes to happen and sometimes they are not very successful.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Lucifel said:


> You realize that takes a long time, don't you? It's not just because you wish it to change that will change. Sometimes it takes a whole generation for changes to happen and sometimes they are not very successful.


I don't know how you got the impression that I thought my wishes had anything to do with it? And I'm not sure what the point of any of your other statements is. They're just vague assertions. Some changes are fast, some are slow, some stick, some don't. Incorporating neutral pronouns into English will occur at some pace and with some level of success dependent on the demand and usefulness of it and/or it will take the path of slang that becomes so common it seems like a normal part of our language (like "ok").


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

lolthevoidlol said:


> I don't know how you got the impression that I thought my wishes had anything to do with it?


The you was a general you, not specifically you.



> And I'm not sure what the point of any of your other statements is. They're just vague assertions. Some changes are fast, some are slow, some stick, some don't. Incorporating neutral pronouns into English will occur at some pace and with some level of success dependent on the  demand and usefulness of it and/or it will take the path of slang that becomes so common it seems like a normal part of our language (like "ok").


That's all nice and dandy, but what about people who are not native English speakers? It's quite confusing for most of us.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Lucifel said:


> The you was a general you, not specifically you.
> 
> 
> That's all nice and dandy, but what about people who are not native English speakers? It's quite confusing for most of us.


your languages will change too? not really my issue lol. while you're speaking with me you'll be doing the best you can with english ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## Metalize

Lucifel said:


> You realize that takes a long time, don't you? It's not just because you wish it to change that will change. Sometimes it takes a whole generation for changes to happen and sometimes they are not very successful.


I don't think the current inadequacies of your language are any transperson's problem.

It's really not so daunting to use the person's name, if you can't find your native substitute for the gender-neutral "they". And as was said, languages can and do change all the time -- transpeople are found all over the world, and just as we have had some changes made in this country, it shouldn't be long before some neutral variant is created in yours.


----------



## Strayfire

Yesterday I was talking with a person who believed that Reeva Steenkamp *deserved *to by shot by Oscar Pistorius.

By virtue of being woman, he reasoned that she was trying to steal Pistorius' fortune.

Thus she deserved to be shot. 

We can only do out best to ignore these sorts of people and hope they don't cause trouble... :/


----------



## AmandaLee

AesSidhe said:


> I currently put her on block exactly for this reason ...
> 
> Edit: She was also projecting Borderline on me and she was showing clear signs of Narcism (hey she's an extreme Truescum, you can't be a Truescum without Narcism xDDD) and she might have Histrionic personality disorder which explains her high need and demand for being a webcam girl, doing blowjobs on camera and wanting to be an escort, while daily confronting her parents in an aggressive way. She even tried to project this on me when she started asking me about my relationships with my parents and how much attention I needed of them (which is almost nothing, I avoided my mom at all times and only sometimes spend time with my dad after diner) so that projection completely failed
> 
> Edit 2: She probably thought she could pull off the Histrionic projection because my current financial situation of a few days ago almost forced me into stripping, escorting and prostitution. Luckily I was capable of fixing my current situation ...


The common denominator for emotional vampires is that they thrive off of creating drama, and it seems that that's exactly what your "friend" here is doing. She needs her daily fix of attention, and if she won't get it from you, she's going to look for it elsewhere. Offering guidance and solutions for a person like this is not worth the time, because they're not looking for a solution; not really. They just want an excuse to talk - and keep talking - about themselves without giving anything in return. 

Just remember that obnoxiousness is a character flaw, not a community flaw.


----------



## AesSidhe

Jennyzomby said:


> sounds like she's just a holdover from the state of things around 1970 a la Blanchard.... you're either stuck being autogynophyliac or homosexual transsexual .... which is just lovely, because note how both categories revolve around sexual practice/desire versus identity issues. You either are obsessed with stimulating yourself with an alt-gendered bod or you want to have same-sex relations. But it always revolves around sex. Both definitions preclude actual ability to transition -- you're still your old gender, but either you're the ultimate masturbatory obsessive or you're simply gay and changed your body to look straight.
> 
> Once people understood that gender identity is not a firm subset of sexual orientation (after all, do cis folks firmly think of their personal identity only through their sexual attractions?), and also as same-sex attractions among the populace became less stigmatized, a broader and more diverse understanding was able to be reached. But the old school folks at Hopkins and a few other places (including some really old web sites) still peddle that crap either outwardly or as an underlying basis of thought...


The frustrating and horrible part is that the (official) Gender Clinic in Belgium uses that old Blanchard style of thinking as a Gatekeeping system. Also I'm the complete OPPOSITE of an autogynophyliac: I NEVER masturbate, not before and NOT AFTER SRS, but I'm also not exclusively into men, I'm Pansexual. So yes that messes up lots of these archaic theories that Truescum in Belgium hold on to because of how the horrible Gatekeeping system works there. 

After having traveled the World and having met Transgender people from other countries without Gatekeeping I've really realized and learned how HORRIBLE Gatekeeping is. In Belgium it's like one big measuring contest: "I'm more trans than you are" "I'm more feminine than you are" "I'm more beautiful than you are" "You aren't trans enough to transition" "I did more for the community than you did" etc etc etc. Most of them are broken in some way because of the Gatekeeping system and there's so much drama. Now in other countries I've lived in where there's no Gatekeeping system and where I've met Transgender people (Thailand and Australia) people are open, warm, accepting loving, playful, there's no measuring contest going on, and people seem much healthier. Which has made me even more opposed to Gatekeeping. Seriously hormones and transition should just be globally available to those who want them, yes even for young teens 



AmandaLee said:


> The common denominator for emotional vampires is that they thrive off of creating drama, and it seems that that's exactly what your "friend" here is doing. She needs her daily fix of attention, and if she won't get it from you, she's going to look for it elsewhere. Offering guidance and solutions for a person like this is not worth the time, because they're not looking for a solution; not really. They just want an excuse to talk - and keep talking - about themselves without giving anything in return.
> 
> Just remember that obnoxiousness is a character flaw, not a community flaw.


She's not my 'friend', she was referred to me via a contact that wanted me to help her. And waw you predicted her behavior so well: Yea, she never listened and just kept on talking and talking not paying attention of advise, etc I wanted to give her.

And I know, I'm trying for it to not touch my perception of the whole community, especially since everyone outside of Belgium is so amazing


----------



## Strayfire

AesSidhe said:


> After having traveled the World and having met Transgender people from other countries without Gatekeeping I've really realized and learned how HORRIBLE Gatekeeping is. In Belgium it's like one big measuring contest: "I'm more trans than you are" "I'm more feminine than you are" "I'm more beautiful than you are" "You aren't trans enough to transition" "I did more for the community than you did" etc etc etc. Most of them are broken in some way because of the Gatekeeping system and there's so much drama. Now in other countries I've lived in where there's no Gatekeeping system and where I've met Transgender people (Thailand and Australia) people are open, warm, accepting loving, playful, there's no measuring contest going on, and people seem much healthier. Which has made me even more opposed to Gatekeeping. Seriously hormones and transition should just be globally available to those who want them, yes even for young teens


Good, I'm glad. 

*hug*


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Nudity Laws & My Presentation - For my will is as strong as yours,


----------



## Metalize

Will any clinic actually do that brain test to see if your brain's region-specific matter(s) correlate to your gender identity?


----------



## Entropic

Metasentient said:


> Will any clinic actually do that brain test to see if your brain's region-specific matter(s) correlate to your gender identity?


I doubt since the technology for that is very expensive. It's not worth it seeing how poorly funded this already is.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Fwiw: 

Truscum or Trutrans is the label given to trans people who believe you must have dysphoria in order to be trans. All else is simply taking on different socially-defined roles. 

Tucute is the opposite label given to anyone who believes you're trans just by saying you are and that you don't need any psych evaluation and any name you come up with to identify with should be respected. 

Tbh, I think there are people who take both sides too far, but I confess I agree with the former more than the latter. There's nothing wrong with going against predefined roles and questioning them, I just don't think that is what defines gender roles, nor do I believe gender is socially constructed.


----------



## Metalize

I wasn't aware you _could_​ be a transgender without experiencing dysphoria. Pretty sure that's like the main criterion.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Metasentient said:


> I wasn't aware you _could_​ be a transgender without experiencing dysphoria. Pretty sure that's like the main criterion.


I personally feel you have to have dysphoria to be trans, but there's multiple groups who say you're trans if you identify as anything, no matter if you have dysphoria. I'm not going to be openly hostile to those who don't have it, but if you run around campus saying you're trans, have the capacity but take 0 steps to transition, I'm sorry, but even I can't take you seriously.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Well. From what I understand there are different levels of dysphoria. So you can have it without being trans?


----------



## Playful Proxy

Lucifel said:


> Well. From what I understand there are different levels of dysphoria. So you can have it without being trans?


I think if the dysphoria is low enough, some may choose not to transition as it's not worth it. I have no idea whether that makes them trans or not, but tbh, it's not like at that point that it's really relevant.


----------



## jeb

Lucifel said:


> Well. From what I understand there are different levels of dysphoria. So you can have it without being trans?


Like different stages of it or ...?

I think a lot of people experience it differently. I know there are people who cry all the time and are severely depressed about it, and there are people who are fine in 99% of situations and will have that one that will trigger them a bit.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

jeb said:


> Like different stages of it or ...?
> 
> I think a lot of people experience it differently. I know there are people who cry all the time and are severely depressed about it, and there are people who are fine in 99% of situations and will have that one that will trigger them a bit.


Different degrees


----------



## jeb

Lucifel said:


> Different degrees


For example?


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Playful Proxy said:


> I think if the dysphoria is low enough, some may choose not to transition as it's not worth it. I have no idea whether that makes them trans or not, but tbh, it's not like at that point that it's really relevant.


I have been trying to figure out with I have some degree of dysphoria or if. i am just confusing myself.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

jeb said:


> For example?


Some people have enough to transition. And others do not but still feel uncomfotable. I do not know how well I am expressing myself.


----------



## jeb

Lucifel said:


> Some people have enough to transition. And others do not but still feel uncomfotable. I do not know how well I am expressing myself.


Ah. Well I haven't come across anything that labels any specific degrees, if that's what you mean. Its all about what you feel, so its probably more of a spectrum than different categorical degrees.


----------



## Playful Proxy

jeb said:


> Ah. Well I haven't come across anything that labels any specific degrees, if that's what you mean. Its all about what you feel, so its probably more of a spectrum than different categorical degrees.


This is probably a better way to look at it. No sense in looking to label it, just know how it feels and how to work with it. For me personally, I've long realized that until I get surgery, any form of sexual activity is one thing I know will absolutely mentally mess me up. I just choose not to for that reason. Other than that, dysphoria comes and goes in waves, some days I see a girl in the mirror I'm proud of progress, other days, "You look like a freak of nature, good lord, how do people even gender you female?"


----------



## jeb

Playful Proxy said:


> This is probably a better way to look at it. No sense in looking to label it, just know how it feels and how to work with it. For me personally, I've long realized that until I get surgery, any form of sexual activity is one thing I know will absolutely mentally mess me up. I just choose not to for that reason. Other than that, dysphoria comes and goes in waves, some days I see a girl in the mirror I'm proud of progress, other days, "You look like a freak of nature, good lord, how do people even gender you female?"


Agreed, no sense in labeling it. Everyone is different and unique with how they approach and experience it all. For me, changing my name was huge in minimizing my dysphoria. It was almost as huge as surgery was. Now, I don't have issues and don't experience those feelings very often. It's sort of, "it is what it is" in my mind most of the time, and that outlook has been beneficial. I actually ended up getting emotional last night about it for the first time in ages, which was disappointing, but at least it didn't last long.


----------



## AmandaLee

Jennywocky said:


> Well, I'm not sure why it matters if you have different criteria than me. You don't need to take the same approach as I do, nor do we need to perceive things the same. The question wasn't "what would AmandaLee gender me as?" it was "what would you gender me as?"
> 
> And when I personally looked, before reading any of the other posts or the tiny print under the pic, I just thought "female." I saw a female face. If you didn't, well... okay. There is no "right or wrong" to it. You just didn't see it the way I saw it. (I think I have also seen a ton of people in my life -- male, female, and trans especially, and so I also do a lot of pattern matching. you seem to focus on a lot of the details, which I wasn't doing -- I just took a look at the face and pattern-matched it a certain way.)
> 
> When I'm up close to someone, though, as I said, face and voice are the two primary first indicators of gender for most people. I've seen people with great bodies and a great voice, and if their face is wrong, they are immediately read. And the same goes for voice -- your body and face can be great, but if your voice is other-gendered, you immediately will also raise eyebrows. it just is what it is.


Well, I didn't say it mattered as such, but I am mildly curious as to why my perception differs from three other people here. I like to know how these mechanisms work, personally; we intuitively - and perhaps subconsciously - sex everyone we meet based on certain criteria, and the process of that intrigues me. 

Just curious, but how would ya'll intuitively sex this person within the binary? Male or female?

http://www.stylebizarre.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/0001.jpg


----------



## Entropic

jeb said:


> I'm straight. I've never had interest in men and don't find the thought appealing. But that's just me. Generally I have a hard time finding women physically attractive anyway until I find their mind attractive or feel the mental spark. I think its cool that you're experiencing things and discovering more about yourself, though. I would probably be more hesitant and in denial if I ever found myself attracted to a man. I like the idea of pansexual because it gives you a label without really putting you in a category, while giving you the freedom to experience relationships without the same restraints.


Well, tbh, I was fairly sure I didn't swing towards women before I met my partner. I've never felt it that particular way before and I've had some good female friends in the past and it didn't end up romantically. I can rarely keep very close friends unless it goes romantic after a while. I could reasonably see myself dating a trans person, hence I say pansexual over the more simple bi. I just don't feel like I swing the way bisexuals seem to swing, which more an overt sense of attraction for both genders even if that attraction is not necessarily as strong. I never placed much prominence on pure physical attraction and still don't. I find that I react differently to what I find is turning me on though. Before I am not sure if I knew what did turn me on, tbh. Sex was just a fucked up thing to begin with, for me. I didn't like straight sex when dating a guy though, that much I knew. I could do it, but it really didn't do anything for me. This is like the first time where I feel like I think a lot actively about sex in a way that also as actively turns me on and it's not just a vague "that'd be nice to have" kind of thing, which I think I had more in the past. I'd be nice to have sex/cuddle with you, but what that exactly pertained to I didn't know even though I've had sex.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Lucifel said:


> Shapesifting would be a pain. Can you imagine the pain of your bones cracking because they're moving places? No thanks.


the moment I saw Odo in Deep Space Nine I knew exactly what I wanted for myself :ninja:


----------



## Playful Proxy

Anyone tried Lexapro? My psych put me on it for my anxiety and it's really kicking my ass with the side effects. Supposedly they go away after a week or so but wow.


----------



## Entropic

Playful Proxy said:


> Anyone tried Lexapro? My psych put me on it for my anxiety and it's really kicking my ass with the side effects. Supposedly they go away after a week or so but wow.


Which ones? I was on a similar drug for a while and I had to quit because of it.


----------



## WamphyriThrall

Playful Proxy said:


> Anyone tried Lexapro? My psych put me on it for my anxiety and it's really kicking my ass with the side effects. Supposedly they go away after a week or so but wow.


What type of side effects? The first time, the usual came up: sweating, dry mouth, shaking, mind fog, nausea, constipation, etc. 

The second time, I was going through a rough patch, and it seems to have triggered suicidal thoughts (which I never had before). I would literally wake up to panic attacks, and felt like screaming.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Entropic said:


> Which ones? I was on a similar drug for a while and I had to quit because of it.


Escitalopram? Also, from your signature, I can't help but notice we have a Hellsing fan.



WamphyriThrall said:


> What type of side effects? The first time, the usual came up: sweating, dry mouth, shaking, mind fog, nausea, constipation, etc.
> 
> The second time, I was going through a rough patch, and it seems to have triggered suicidal thoughts (which I never had before). I would literally wake up to panic attacks, and felt like screaming.


Mostly slight fever, mind fog, dizziness, nausea, and feeling weak. I've nearly driven off the road a couple times, side effects could be worse but it's on day 3 and this is starting to get a tad annoying.


----------



## WamphyriThrall

Playful Proxy said:


> Mostly slight fever, mind fog, nausea, and feeling weak.


Yeah, those are common (I'd be more surprised if someone didn't get them, actually). They do go away, after a while, but in the case some don't, you get used to them. It's not like a super debilitating agony, or anything, so most people figure it's worth the small sacrifice. 

And the reason you see a spark in suicidal thoughts might be due to people being so depressed before, they can't be bothered to make a plan and carry through with it, when suddenly, they have a burst of energy, but the benefits haven't started to kick in yet, so they have the effects of depression combined with "clarity".

I also asked a friend and a healthcare professional if there were any complications from hormones and these sorts of medications, and they said it was fine. *shrugs*


----------



## Playful Proxy

WamphyriThrall said:


> Yeah, those are common (I'd be more surprised if someone didn't get them, actually). They do go away, after a while, but in the case some don't, you get used to them. It's not like a super debilitating agony, or anything, so most people figure it's worth the small sacrifice.
> 
> And the reason you see a spark in suicidal thoughts might be due to people being so depressed before, they can't be bothered to make a plan and carry through with it, when suddenly, they have a burst of energy, but the benefits haven't started to kick in yet, so they have the effects of depression combined with "clarity".
> 
> I also asked a friend and a healthcare professional if there were any complications from hormones and these sorts of medications, and they said it was fine. *shrugs*


Spark in suicidal thoughts? When I said driven off the road, I meant in that I was having trouble remaining focused, not suicidal or anything. I mean, being able to go outside without being terrified is worth it, but I would like the side effects to wear down a bit if possible.


----------



## Entropic

Playful Proxy said:


> Escitalopram? Also, from your signature, I can't help but notice we have a Hellsing fan.
> 
> 
> Mostly slight fever, mind fog, dizziness, nausea, and feeling weak. I've nearly driven off the road a couple times, side effects could be worse but it's on day 3 and this is starting to get a tad annoying.


I was on Setraline for a while. Had to quit due to anorgasmia which, when still fairly new on testosterone, was annoying as hell. 

And I wouldn't say a fan as much as it really resonates on a personal level. The symbolism is spot on. 

If it impedes your driving skills, could someone else drive you or could you commute for a while? Sounds dangerous.


----------



## Jennywocky

F*cking Lexapro. I was doing Wellbutrin back in the 2000's and I think Lexapro is what I went on as well for a few months. I just didn't like it, even if I can't describe why; I just felt like i had to stop taking it, it didn't sit well with me. 

And I had to try TWICE to quit, because of the side effects. The first time, I was constantly dizzy and felt like my head was stuffed with cotton. So after a week of trying to quit, I started taking it again. Lasted a few more months. Then tried again, this time weaning myself down to the lowest dose I could before stopping... and I STILL got slapped by the withdrawal symptoms. I mean, I work in the tech field, and my productivity was way down because of the thought issues.

How long did it take? Six weeks. Six weeks of feeling dizzy and like I couldn't think clearly, and finally it cleared up. Never again.

Is there anything else to try?

EDIT: Well, now I feel a bit dumb - I was on Effexor, not Lexapro. (Curse of the X in the name, I guess.) But they both inhibit serotonin reuptake, and perhaps that is the thing that was my bane.




AmandaLee said:


> Just curious, but how would ya'll intuitively sex this person within the binary? Male or female?


hahaha! That's a good one, honestly -- my synapses are sparking, I couldn't settle on something. 

What sprang first into my head was "guy" but that also doesn't feel right. So then I started analyzing it consciously. 

Bone structure of face looks pretty male, which is why I thought that first. But for the age there is no facial hair or shadow, and the skin texture looks female. Hands are androgynous and well-kept. 

This is a great andro pic, at least for the part of the person that was caught.

As a side note, I love Tilda Swinton (the actor), and she's wonderfully androgynous. Depending on her makeup job, she can come across as male or female or simply purely beyond gender.


----------



## Entropic

AmandaLee said:


> Well, I didn't say it mattered as such, but I am mildly curious as to why my perception differs from three other people here. I like to know how these mechanisms work, personally; we intuitively - and perhaps subconsciously - sex everyone we meet based on certain criteria, and the process of that intrigues me.
> 
> Just curious, but how would ya'll intuitively sex this person within the binary? Male or female?
> 
> http://www.stylebizarre.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/0001.jpg


Male.


----------



## AmandaLee

Jennywocky said:


> hahaha! That's a good one, honestly -- my synapses are sparking, I couldn't settle on something.
> 
> What sprang first into my head was "guy" but that also doesn't feel right. So then I started analyzing it consciously.
> 
> Bone structure of face looks pretty male, which is why I thought that first. But for the age there is no facial hair or shadow, and the skin texture looks female. Hands are androgynous and well-kept.
> 
> This is a great andro pic, at least for the part of the person that was caught.
> 
> As a side note, I love Tilda Swinton (the actor), and she's wonderfully androgynous. Depending on her makeup job, she can come across as male or female or simply purely beyond gender.


That is actually model and actress Omahyra Mota. She is a cis female, but has done quite a bit of androgynous modeling and even modeled for men's clothes. Have you seen X-Men: The Last Stand? She played the mutant Arclight. 

http://iv1.lisimg.com/image/6799015/448full-arclight-(omahyra-mota).jpg

Oohh I love Tilda Swinton as well! She's awesome! Great actress, too. She's made some pretty "brave" choices in roles, which I like. She's clearly not afraid to radically physically alter her appearance for a part, which is a rare quality in Hollywood.


----------



## AmandaLee

Entropic said:


> Male.


Cis woman, actually.

Omahyra - IMDb


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

lolthevoidlol said:


> the moment I saw Odo in Deep Space Nine I knew exactly what I wanted for myself :ninja:


I have no idea.


----------



## Playful Proxy

AmandaLee said:


> Cis woman, actually.
> 
> Omahyra - IMDb


I'm not the only one with a really defined jawline! *cheers*


----------



## FlaviaGemina

I just want to share this little anecdote with you guys because the irony of it is hilarious:

On a penpal group on facebook a woman posted an ad saying she is looking for a penpal for her pre-operative trans wife. She was wondering why nobody replied when she herself got lots of offers and asked whether her wife's trans status plays a role.
Then there was this girl who replied and said she does not write to males and she would consider the wife male because she's pre-op.
Now here's the punchline: the wife's interests are crafts, crocheting, knitting, baking etc. (maybe not all of those, but something along those lines).
I don't do any of those things because they are way too feminine for me, but I'm female. So would that girl write to me because I'm female even if we don't have anything in common? But she wouldn't write to the pre-op woman, who has the same feminine, interests, because she is 'male'.

LOL.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Lucifel said:


> I have no idea.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

lolthevoidlol said:


>


Still no idea.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Entropic said:


> Has anyone else noticed such changes to your sexuality since you came out? Another thing is that I notice that I objectify women and the female body much more than I did before. Previously I was aware of it but I wouldn't think of it in the same way as I do now. The latter I honestly find problematic and something I wish I could revert but I guess socialization is that powerful sometimes.


Just from coming out? Nope. Have you started T yet? That may be affecting it somewhat. It took me about 6 months before I started getting side effects in this area, but the little attraction I had to women before really started to fade and I became much more strongly leaning in the straight direction. Also, sexual attraction just works just way different in general for me now in how little of it has anything to do with appearance. There's still that, "Oh, he's attractive" in passing but it doesn't have neeaaarly the same effect on me it did preHRT. 

PS: Late reply, I know, totally didn't miss it.


----------



## Entropic

Playful Proxy said:


> Just from coming out? Nope. Have you started T yet? That may be affecting it somewhat. It took me about 6 months before I started getting side effects in this area, but the little attraction I had to women before really started to fade and I became much more strongly leaning in the straight direction. Also, sexual attraction just works just way different in general for me now in how little of it has anything to do with appearance. There's still that, "Oh, he's attractive" in passing but it doesn't have neeaaarly the same effect on me it did preHRT.
> 
> PS: Late reply, I know, totally didn't miss it.


I've been on T for over 1 and a half year. Pretty sure T didn't affect anything outside of making me more sexual.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Entropic said:


> I've been on T for over 1 and a half year. Pretty sure T didn't affect anything outside of making me more sexual.


It's so weird how T doesn't seem to do anything like that for trans guys and the rest of us are over here seeing huge differences in that area. xD


----------



## Entropic

Playful Proxy said:


> It's so weird how T doesn't seem to do anything like that for trans guys and the rest of us are over here seeing huge differences in that area. xD


What differences?


----------



## Playful Proxy

Entropic said:


> What differences?


Attraction that's based on visual went down a lot, the way certain guys smelled really got my attention more, attraction to guys actually felt like....magnetic attraction. The moment the sexual visual drive went down was when my attraction started shifting to men. It was less sex-driven and more just wanting to be around them, near them, and physically touching them (the one you're attracted to, not everyone, obviously).


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Playful Proxy said:


> Attraction that's based on visual went down a lot, the way certain guys smelled really got my attention more, attraction to guys actually felt like....magnetic attraction. The moment the sexual visual drive went down was when my attraction started shifting to men. It was less sex-driven and more just wanting to be around them, near them, and physically touching them (the one you're attracted to, not everyone, obviously).


Welcome to being a woman, I hope you enjoy the trip.


----------



## Entropic

Playful Proxy said:


> Attraction that's based on visual went down a lot, the way certain guys smelled really got my attention more, attraction to guys actually felt like....magnetic attraction. The moment the sexual visual drive went down was when my attraction started shifting to men. It was less sex-driven and more just wanting to be around them, near them, and physically touching them (the one you're attracted to, not everyone, obviously).


I attribute my awareness of physical attraction or rather body parts of women, more to socialization and the male social role than I do testosterone. I've always been aware of these things but it didn't quite occupy my mind because of no sex drive. The only thing I think T could have caused is that I sometimes get random images of sex upon being exposed to stimuli such as certain sexualized body parts. 

I never felt or experienced these things you cite even pre T or pre transition, which is why I believe this is learned behavior and perhaps discovering or coming to terms with one's actual sexuality, than I do hormones.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Entropic said:


> I attribute my awareness of physical attraction or rather body parts of women, more to socialization and the male social role than I do testosterone. I've always been aware of these things but it didn't quite occupy my mind because of no sex drive. The only thing I think T could have caused is that I sometimes get random images of sex upon being exposed to stimuli such as certain sexualized body parts.
> 
> I never felt or experienced these things you cite even pre T or pre transition, which is why I believe this is learned behavior and perhaps discovering or coming to terms with one's actual sexuality, than I do hormones.


I would offer a different theory. I know a lot of trans women who get similar side effects later in on hormones. Trans people are noted to be neurologically closer to their identified gender even pre-hormones so there may be some sexual dimorphism brainwise. My bf has long said that even my description of pre-HRT, that I got a 'taste' of what men feel like but that he doesn't think I ever really truly understood or felt the full brunt of it.


----------



## Entropic

Playful Proxy said:


> I would offer a different theory. I know a lot of trans women who get similar side effects later in on hormones. Trans people are noted to be neurologically closer to their identified gender even pre-hormones so there may be some sexual dimorphism brainwise. My bf has long said that even my description of pre-HRT, that I got a 'taste' of what men feel like but that he doesn't think I ever really truly understood it. I could be sexually attracted to women preHRT and we could be friends, but I later came to realize i never did nor could fall in love with one.


Yeah but sexuality is not necessarily a part of that, remember. What if you are gay? How would you explained that? 

Also, I remember that there was a shift in general after I got together with my partner, since it was the first relationship I had where I was in a straight relationship as a man. The difference in social role was palpable but in a positive way. It was very validating in this regard.

I don't think I would have been or thought the same if I was truly gay.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Entropic said:


> Yeah but sexuality is not necessarily a part of that, remember. What if you are gay? How would you explained that?
> 
> Also, I remember that there was a shift in general after I got together with my partner, since it was the first relationship I had where I was in a straight relationship as a man. The difference in social role was palpable but in a positive way. It was very validating in this regard.


Yeah, I realized sexuality wasn't relevant to that convo, and thus why I edited it out, but I guess it was something I felt like adding last-minute regarding the overall conversation at large. I understand the difference in social role, but the physical sensations/desires feel more like they have biological roots than social ones.


----------



## Entropic

Playful Proxy said:


> Yeah, I realized sexuality wasn't relevant to that convo, and thus why I edited it out, but I guess it was something I felt like adding last-minute regarding the overall conversation at large. I understand the difference in social role, but the physical sensations/desires feel more like they have biological roots than social ones.


Ok, I can't make sense of that either way since it seems foreign to my own experiences. The only thing I think is more biological is the reaction to visual stimuli, as I mentioned, where I can get flashes of sex that seem more rooted in something instinctual. I'm fairly sure that the objectification of the female body itself is not, though.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Entropic said:


> Ok, I can't make sense of that either way since it seems foreign to my own experiences. The only thing I think is more biological is the reaction to visual stimuli, as I mentioned, where I can get flashes of sex that seem more rooted in something instinctual. I'm fairly sure that the objectification of the female body itself is not, though.


I don't think anyone sees the female body as an object in their right mind. Sure, women use it to attract mates, men do the same, it's quite natural, we're very much like birds who use our skills and beauty to continue to reproduce, but most of these skills are learned or acquired in some way.
There is a old mentality that women are owned, I think that is vanishing slowly but sure, but I'm pretty sure that is learned from the relationship our parents have and the education we are given.

Hormones are just "neh, I'm gonna make you bleed, make you a little more horny than usual and make you crave stuff".


----------



## Jennywocky

Playful Proxy said:


> Attraction that's based on visual went down a lot, the way certain guys smelled really got my attention more, attraction to guys actually felt like....magnetic attraction. The moment the sexual visual drive went down was when my attraction started shifting to men. It was less sex-driven and more just wanting to be around them, near them, and physically touching them (the one you're attracted to, not everyone, obviously).


Yeah, that was my experience too. Sex attraction had a large physical "instant" component that was also very visual. Touch and smell are more primary now, even audio (voice), and how someone interacts with me. Not that the physical/visual is gone but it's usually a secondary thing unless something is, well, really prime. I came into it as neutral, and noticed it all because I found it shocking... especially the changes in smell, and the shift of the sex drive.



... and yeah, society can also layer more things on top of it. Western culture = commercialism, if you want it we'll sell it = so of course accentuating 'sex signals' as part of creating need and generating wealth exchange will take advantage of what it can. Certain female bodies sell (as an object of sexual interest, or to be a body to aspire to), so society accentuates the image and finds ways to market it / stoke the interest.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Here's what it'll look like if trans people aren't allowed to use the right bathroom.


----------



## AmandaLee

Lucifel said:


> Here's what it'll look like if trans people aren't allowed to use the right bathroom.


I'm curious about one thing... In my country, the public men's room is often just a urinal, which means that someone without a penis cannot use it unless they feel like squatting in the urinal, literally. So if a trans guy wants to do a number 1, he has to go into the ladies' room (or a gender neutral toilet) regardless. Using it is free, though, while the charge for using a stall is 5 SEK, or more. It has to do with maintenance cost, they say, but it creates this situation where relieving yourself costs money depending on your anatomy. Fair?


----------



## Entropic

AmandaLee said:


> I'm curious about one thing... In my country, the public men's room is often just a urinal, which means that someone without a penis cannot use it unless they feel like squatting in the urinal, literally. So if a trans guy wants to do a number 1, he has to go into the ladies' room (or a gender neutral toilet) regardless. Using it is free, though, while the charge for using a stall is 5 SEK, or more. It has to do with maintenance cost, they say, but it creates this situation where relieving yourself costs money depending on your anatomy. Fair?


Trans men can get STPs:

The Ultimate Guide to STP - TransGuys.com

Not everyone wants to though, obviously. I've considered it in the past myself, but at least in Sweden unless I go to a night club or something which I don't, I've yet to run into this problem (also public restrooms at very crowded places are to be avoided in general). There is usually a stall in the men's even though most of the space is occupied by the urinal because while most of us need to pee, it does happen you also need to do the poo. Denying stalls for this reason doesn't make any sense. I still think unisex is the way to go though. Urinals are by no means not necessarily more efficient or better in any way, whatsoever.


----------



## AesSidhe

In loving memory of all our beautiful sisters who aren't with us anymore. In all of your memory I've worn (and will wear) my pride flag all day long and go out wearing it, and talk about each of you to whoever asks me about it.

Transgender Day of Remembrance


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

AesSidhe said:


> In loving memory of all our beautiful sisters who aren't with us anymore. In all of your memory I've worn (and will wear) my pride flag all day long and go out wearing it, and talk about each of you to whoever asks me about it.
> 
> Transgender Day of Remembrance


The brothers are less important?


----------



## AesSidhe

Lucifel said:


> The brothers are less important?


There are no brothers on the list, that's why I edited brothers out of my post (I originally wrote "brothers and sisters")


----------



## AesSidhe

oeps double post, sorry about that


----------



## AmandaLee

AesSidhe said:


> There are no brothers on the list, that's why I edited brothers out of my post (I originally wrote "brothers and sisters")


Nephi Luthers is referred to as a "he" and judging from the photo, he does present as a man. So one "brother", at least.

EDIT: Japanese victim, Yoshi Tsuchida, is also referred to as a "transgender man". 



> TOKYO: A transgender Japanese man whose face had been cut off was found dead by his adopted son at their suburban home, police and media said Friday (Nov 13).


----------



## Entropic

Metasentient said:


> Great. I do have high hopes that I will "feel" the difference very soon and tangibly as well; I generally tend to be sensitive to these subtle effects. Thanks so much for your personal experience and general recommendations.


Good luck surviving the initial weeks of being horny as fuck 24/7 lol.


----------



## AesSidhe

Strayfire said:


> On another note, I am totally stoked my black dress arrived today. :3
> 
> 
> View attachment 434689
> 
> View attachment 434697
> 
> View attachment 434705


Waw Stray ... some longer hair and you'd be passable, hell I'd say you could be passable RIGHT NOW DD


----------



## Strayfire

AesSidhe said:


> Waw Stray ... some longer hair and you'd be passable, hell I'd say you could be passable RIGHT NOW DD


I'm not allowed to grow my hair that long, but I'll be sure to grab a wig when nobody is paying attention 

Then I'll wax, get nice shoes and paint my nails and be totally fabcakes. 

And you can show me all those bars you love! :3


----------



## Entropic

Strayfire said:


> I'm not allowed to grow my hair that long, but I'll be sure to grab a wig when nobody is paying attention
> 
> Then I'll wax, get nice shoes and paint my nails and be totally fabcakes.
> 
> And you can show me all those bars you love! :3


What do you identify as/what pronouns do you prefer? It says male on your profile but just want to be sure.


----------



## AesSidhe

I had the weirdest dream ever, ok it wasn't that weird but still ...

I dreamed that I was on a bus (like a big travel bus) to go and see my family for the first time in 5 years and as I'm looking out of the window to see my family waiting for me, I noticed that my younger brother had become my younger sister, and she was wearing this beautiful white dress that looked amazing on her. Suddenly we were with 2 girls in the family.

Now this is actually based on some events that actually happened in real life. In the dream my younger brother (my sister in the dream) was younger than he actually is right now (and most likely I was younger myself too). As a (young) teen and as a child whenever we went to a restaurant or went on vacation everyone addressed him as a girl (for example: "What would the beautiful young lady like to drink?"), because he looked very much like a pretty young girl (he had amazing long curly bright blond hair, and very delicate facial features) and I often found myself jealous of him, wishing I could trade my looks with his, so I'd be addressed as a girl. This left me hoping as a child and early teen that my little brother was actually my little sister, so we could share our experiences and support each other. 

It's just weird that after so many years I'd have a dream like this, but maybe it's once again the desire and dream of having my family accept and love me for who I am, and in this dream my little sister was successful at winning my mom her heart and helped her understand that we're still her children and deserve her love.


----------



## MisterPerfect

Socrates said:


> This thread inspired by @_Franktalking_ – word to your mother.
> 
> I've wanted to make mention of this for a while here but was never sure how to go about it. So the basic rundown goes something like this:
> 
> – As far back as I can remember, it felt "wrong" being a male.
> – I always resented the idea that _I_ should have to have the same interests as other males.
> – As such, I spent a fair amount of time crossdressing, which, of course, lead to getting caught.
> – The feelings only get stronger with time.
> 
> In 2004, I was caught crossdressing. This, obviously, did not end too well. I was lectured repeatedly on the issue and told to stop. I didn't stop. I started talking to mom about it somewhat, and her repeated musing on the subject amounted to nothing more than "_you don't want to be a girl_." As if she knew what _I_ wanted. You can't just ignore desires you were born with.
> 
> Alas, I tried. I tried for many years. In 2008, I had such a strong desire to transition that I was actually considering how to go about it. I knew that my family would never let me live it down, and had various vain issues: I have broad shoulders, bigger hands, what I'd call a big nose (but everyone else is reluctant to), and (stupidly) worried about height (I'm only 5'10). :mellow:
> 
> The issue came back in 2010, as I learned from my philosophy professor that her brother is an aspiring MtF trans, and that there were multiple trans students on campus. For what it's worth, the issue never really _went away_, I just _ignored it_ for sake of family.
> 
> In November, I came out to my parents first, and then my friends. My parents more or less said that when / if I transition, our relationships are over. :sad:
> 
> On the other end of the scale, my friends were broadly accepting of the proposition: my guy friends threatened to beat up discriminators, and my girl friends offered to 'help' in various ways (hair, make-up, clothes, etc). :tongue:
> 
> I know that a good bit of my depression comes from ignoring the issue. Every therapist I've had ended up suggesting transitioning would be good for my mental health and self-image. I don't doubt it at all. :bored:
> 
> However, I am entirely unsure what to do now. Anyone been in a similar situation or known someone that dealt with a similar situation? Where should I go with this? What option(s) sound most reasonable, in this case?


It could be that since your mom is female she is telling you that if you were a girl you would not enjoy it. Woman are put through a lot of crap just for being female. Females have to worry about getting raped or sexually harassed all the time just for the fact they are female and most males will jump on anything with a vagina. This attitude is often encouraged by society and its told that men wanting to screw a bunch of woman makes them a man. While women doing that kind of stuff it means she is slut and we should shame her.


----------



## MisterPerfect

AesSidhe said:


> Waw Stray ... some longer hair and you'd be passable, hell I'd say you could be passable RIGHT NOW DD


Omgosh this is so cute BTW!


----------



## Strayfire

Entropic said:


> What do you identify as/what pronouns do you prefer? It says male on your profile but just want to be sure.


I identify as whatever you wanna call me as long as you're not being mean 

Except "it"... that's the quickest way to hurt my feelings. 

I hate it when friends do that.

Thanks for asking though!


----------



## Ace Face

Strayfire said:


> "People can't discriminate if they don't know" is my policy.


Unfortunately, people do discriminate even if they don't know. It's both sad and stupid :/


----------



## lolthevoidlol

and then there's this https://www.newscientist.com/articl...eres-no-such-thing-as-a-male-or-female-brain/
https://www.newscientist.com/articl...-the-myth-of-distinct-male-and-female-brains/


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

lolthevoidlol said:


> and then there's this https://www.newscientist.com/articl...eres-no-such-thing-as-a-male-or-female-brain/
> https://www.newscientist.com/articl...-the-myth-of-distinct-male-and-female-brains/


Are there any more of these?


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Lucifel said:


> Are there any more of these?


at work, so haven't had a chance to follow up yet or go through all the links embedded in the articles


----------



## Playful Proxy

I feel like I don't belong into the trans community, or at least not with what it's become. It feels like it's become full of social justice warriors and special snowflakes that are more concerned of building the longest wordsoup of labels to apply to themselves for some form of validation than people who are afflicted with something unfortunate and are just trying to take the steps needed to return to a normal, functional lifestyle. I've begun to realize that trans circles may in fact just not be for me and that they themselves are toxic. I'm beginning to see why so many trans people who are long-transitioned, go stealth and/or leave the trans scene entirely without 'contributing' their part. Those that stay seem to be the kind to want to shoot themselves and everyone else related to them in the foot. Maybe it's time that I realized that I'll find no comfort in the group who is supposedly meant to be 'my own kind' and that while I and cis people are not the same in this category, we at least get relate better without me being expected to walk on eggshells just to avoid being blasted by some weakly backed moral tirade.


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## Entropic

Legally male, fuck yeah!


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## Jennywocky

Entropic said:


> Legally male, fuck yeah!























Playful Proxy said:


> I feel like I don't belong into the trans community, or at least not with what it's become. It feels like it's become full of social justice warriors and special snowflakes that are more concerned of building the longest wordsoup of labels to apply to themselves for some form of validation than people who are afflicted with something unfortunate and are just trying to take the steps needed to return to a normal, functional lifestyle. I've begun to realize that trans circles may in fact just not be for me and that they themselves are toxic. I'm beginning to see why so many trans people who are long-transitioned, go stealth and/or leave the trans scene entirely without 'contributing' their part. Those that stay seem to be the kind to want to shoot themselves and everyone else related to them in the foot. Maybe it's time that I realized that I'll find no comfort in the group who is supposedly meant to be 'my own kind' and that while I and cis people are not the same in this category, we at least get relate better without me being expected to walk on eggshells just to avoid being blasted by some weakly backed moral tirade.


yeah, i resonate with what you've said here.

I had a site that I used (for Gen X and Gen Y) when I was transitioning that was very helpful, but I rarely post there anymore -- the next few groups of trans folks that came through (usually every two years or so it seems -- that's the useful matriculation time) are more of the SJW mentality you are describing here, and I find I have little in common with them. And everything got more and more political/activistic... lots of arguing about trans social politics, lots of buzzwords and categories. Doesn't seem a lot different than any other kind of social politics centered around gender or race, but that's not really my thing... and I don't feel comfortable talking there because everything gets deconstructed to a crazy degree and criticized. 

My situation was simply that I was miserable and non-functional in the role/body I was born in and had tried for many years to live in, and I needed to change my life, and once I did, I just wanted to live my life again -- spend time with friends, hold down a job/career, work on projects and art, have my own place, help my kids, maybe date/get married again at some point. Everything for me has been geared towards just functioning in the world and "having my life back."

I do have friends in the community who are more active -- a few are journalists/activists -- and I contribute my thoughts and experiences to them, to use as they see fit. But more "practical activism" meant towards fixing laws and practical education versus esoteric/abstracted gender and identity politics... normalizing transpeople as just "people" who are just like any other person aside from a unique background/experiences. In other words, focused on living life and getting rid of things that stand in the way of that for transpeople.


----------



## Kurt Wagner

Entropic said:


> Legally male, fuck yeah!












Congratulations.


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## Fumetsu

Playful Proxy said:


> I feel like I don't belong into the trans community, or at least not with what it's become. It feels like it's become full of social justice warriors and special snowflakes that are more concerned of building the longest wordsoup of labels to apply to themselves for some form of validation than people who are afflicted with something unfortunate and are just trying to take the steps needed to return to a normal, functional lifestyle. I've begun to realize that trans circles may in fact just not be for me and that they themselves are toxic. I'm beginning to see why so many trans people who are long-transitioned, go stealth and/or leave the trans scene entirely without 'contributing' their part. Those that stay seem to be the kind to want to shoot themselves and everyone else related to them in the foot. Maybe it's time that I realized that I'll find no comfort in the group who is supposedly meant to be 'my own kind' and that while I and cis people are not the same in this category, we at least get relate better without me being expected to walk on eggshells just to avoid being blasted by some weakly backed moral tirade.


It's unfortunate you have to feel this way. And while I don't have the exact same issues as you do, I hear where you're coming from: you never really fit in with either side, you're always slightly left of middle, and if you aren't "us" then you are "Them" and "They" are the enemy. So you get both sides throwing rocks at you while yelling that you are entitled and don't understand what it feels like to be persecuted. Is that about right?

I seem to have a different view of gender than a lot of people. I sometimes wonder if I myself am what some would consider "Gender neutral". A lot of people accuse me of being "Too masculine" and it always comes out of left field for me because it just isn't something I really think about.

I look forward to the day when we don't need 12 different labels for gender or sexuality, when men and women can wear/act/do whatever they want and to identify themselves only as...themselves and gender is strictly biological.

I'm aware that this is the trans support thread. A lot of people probably think I don't support trans people. That actually isn't true. I support anyone who just wants to be able to be happy in their own skin.

But I do have differing ideas on the methods of both sides of the issue. I think it'd be nice to be able to discuss them, but like you said, there are just too many eggshells on this floor right now.


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## Entropic

Why must it be so convoluted to issue a new id card?


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## Aya the Abysswalker

Entropic said:


> Why must it be so convoluted to issue a new id card?


I have no idea. It is so for me, I can't imagine to you.


----------



## Entropic

Lucifel said:


> I have no idea. It is so for me, I can't imagine to you.


Finally got it working though so I'll have it in a couple of weeks or something. Now I just need to fix my bank account.


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## corpusaurelius

hmmm.....i like how you say how i can comment? haha..well i do, since it's pretty funny.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Entropic said:


> I like the zipper binders from T-Kingdom. Especially good for sweaty sunny days because of how easy they are to put on and take off thanks to the zipper.


I was talking to my boyfriend and he said he bought his on that site but he finds it very hard to breath with. The truth is that most of the time we were together he wasn't using it and went he was I did notice his breath getting fainter. Any suggestions?


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## Entropic

Aya of Rivia said:


> I was talking to my boyfriend and he said he bought his on that site but he finds it very hard to breath with. The truth is that most of the time we were together he wasn't using it and went he was I did notice his breath getting fainter. Any suggestions?


Which one did he buy? It is very important the he buys one for his size. If it's too small, then it can become like how you describe. Tell him to buy a larger one ASAP. It's dangerous to wear a binder that's too small.


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## Aya the Abysswalker

Entropic said:


> Which one did he buy? It is very important the he buys one for his size. If it's too small, then it can become like how you describe. Tell him to buy a larger one ASAP. It's dangerous to wear a binder that's too small.


He bought the first one that they sell in the page. He thinks they're a bit too expensive (he is living alone right now and has to pay other things) so he asked me for any alternatives to that site. I came here because you guys are better than Google or Amazon.


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## Entropic

Aya of Rivia said:


> He bought the first one that they sell in the page. He thinks they're a bit too expensive (he is living alone right now and has to pay other things) so he asked me for any alternatives to that site. I came here because you guys are better than Google or Amazon.


Can you link me the model name? Yes, they are expensive compared to others, but they tend to be very flexible because of the fabric.


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## Aya the Abysswalker

Entropic said:


> Can you link me the model name? Yes, they are expensive compared to others, but they tend to be very flexible because of the fabric.


According to what he told me (and I saw) it was this one Breast binders for Tomboys and FTM by T-Kingdom

He's worried because he's coming over in the Summer (where he can because no games come out during mid to end Summer and he works at a game store) and he's scared people will notice and that he'll have trouble because it's hot and all that.


----------



## Entropic

Aya of Rivia said:


> According to what he told me (and I saw) it was this one Breast binders for Tomboys and FTM by T-Kingdom
> 
> He's worried because he's coming over in the Summer (where he can because no games come out during mid to end Summer and he works at a game store) and he's scared people will notice and that he'll have trouble because it's hot and all that.


Looks like you have hooks on the side to adjust the size. How long has he wore it? It should also be stated that it DOES hurt initially, to wear a binder, but you should only try a little a time and you will get used to it eventually. Assuming the size is right. He should be able to breathe. 

The velcro is rather thin so hot summer days are no problem but he may have issues taking it off if he's sweaty because it sticks to the body.


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## corpusaurelius

Ace Face said:


> Is this a trick question? I'm going with, "He gets on the internet and tries to find one to meet up with." >_>


ok. so why cannot i make an opinion here? because you say so?


----------



## Ace Face

corpusaurelius said:


> ok. so why cannot i make an opinion here? because you say so?


The language barrier is evident. Keep working at it though, and you will eventually reach a point in which you actually understand that I wasn't even addressing what you can or can't do


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## corpusaurelius

Ace Face said:


> The language barrier is evident. Keep working at it though, and you will eventually reach a point in which you actually understand that I wasn't even addressing what you can or can't do


No, but based on your tone/character, it's pretty evident...nay self-evident. Though I reckon you do this all the time, but meh, not my issue.


----------



## Ace Face

corpusaurelius said:


> No, but based on your tone/character, it's pretty evident...nay self-evident. Though I reckon you do this all the time, but meh, not my issue.


Please, tell me more about my character. This should be rich.


----------



## corpusaurelius

dunno...I just kind of sensed you're very bullish, but meh...i take it it's in your character not to believe I can express myself or defend myself. or that i have to yield to your position without a good reason why...cool.


----------



## Ace Face

corpusaurelius said:


> dunno...I just kind of sensed you're very bullish, but meh...i take it it's in your character not to believe I can express myself or defend myself. or that i have to yield to your position without a good reason why...cool.


What are you talking about?


----------



## corpusaurelius

haha..

cos you welcome everybody else's posts here, but it's clear you project your feelings here...that's cool. i'm out though, i have better things to do.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Entropic said:


> Looks like you have hooks on the side to adjust the size. How long has he wore it? It should also be stated that it DOES hurt initially, to wear a binder, but you should only try a little a time and you will get used to it eventually. Assuming the size is right. He should be able to breathe.
> 
> The velcro is rather thin so hot summer days are no problem but he may have issues taking it off if he's sweaty because it sticks to the body.


He has it for a few years and figured that he's having issues because he has gained weight ever since. He was 50kgs back then and now he's 55kgs (he is still lighter than me which is always funny to me). I don't know if it's because it's old and he has gained some weight that he's having trouble with it.

Ah, nice. He's really worried about the weather (and my parents but he'll not admit it). If you know about any other cheaper alternatives tell me, because he keeps complaining that binders are too expensive.


----------



## Ace Face

corpusaurelius said:


> haha..
> 
> cos you welcome everybody else's posts here, but it's clear you project your feelings here...that's cool. i'm out though, i have better things to do.


Sweet, bro. Have a good day.


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## corpusaurelius

i am....it's better that i need to check with you to post stuff here.


----------



## Ace Face

Lol, if you say so.


----------



## He's a Superhero!

Do we have any trans people who are also homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, omnisexual, or asexual here on PerC?

Oddly enough some people seem to assume that trans people are all homosexual by default, even though (from my understanding, so correct me if I'm wrong...I'm still learning about this subject) they simply have the wrong body to what their gender actually is...This means that a female-to-male trans person who is sexually attracted to women, or a male-to-female trans person who is sexually attracted to men, would technically be heterosexual.


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## lolthevoidlol

He's a Superhero! said:


> Do we have any trans people who are also homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, or asexual here on PerC?
> 
> Oddly enough some people seem to assume that trans people are all homosexual by default, even though (from my understanding, so correct me if I'm wrong...I'm still learning about this subject) they simply have the wrong body to what their gender actually is...This means that a female-to-male trans person who is sexually attracted to women, or a male-to-female trans person who is sexually attracted to men, would technically be heterosexual.


pansexual here, but yeah, trans people can have any sexuality including heterosexual


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## He's a Superhero!

lolthevoidlol said:


> pansexual here, but yeah, trans people can have any sexuality including heterosexual


That's what I thought...And considering that heterosexual is the majority sexual orientation typically, I'm assuming that the majority trans people would also identify, or technically be, heterosexual. This is just speculative however.


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## Aya the Abysswalker

He's a Superhero! said:


> Do we have any trans people who are also homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, omnisexual, or asexual here on PerC?
> 
> Oddly enough some people seem to assume that trans people are all homosexual by default, even though (from my understanding, so correct me if I'm wrong...I'm still learning about this subject) they simply have the wrong body to what their gender actually is...This means that a female-to-male trans person who is sexually attracted to women, or a male-to-female trans person who is sexually attracted to men, would technically be heterosexual.


Any sexuality. My boyfriend is bisexual.


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## Entropic

He's a Superhero! said:


> Do we have any trans people who are also homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, omnisexual, or asexual here on PerC?
> 
> Oddly enough some people seem to assume that trans people are all homosexual by default, even though (from my understanding, so correct me if I'm wrong...I'm still learning about this subject) they simply have the wrong body to what their gender actually is...This means that a female-to-male trans person who is sexually attracted to women, or a male-to-female trans person who is sexually attracted to men, would technically be heterosexual.


I'm demisexual but panromantic, whatever. Can be with anyone as long as I like them, pretty much. And yes, you are right on the former. The problem stems from early assumptions that MTF are still male and FTM are still female and they define sexuality based on your genitalia e.g. how this book released in 2014 on trans sexualities still refer MTFs as males and are homosexual when they date other men (autogynephilic).


----------



## WamphyriThrall

He's a Superhero! said:


> That's what I thought...And considering that heterosexual is the majority sexual orientation typically, I'm assuming that the majority trans people would also identify, or technically be, heterosexual. This is just speculative however.


There's actually a larger number of bisexuals, pansexuals, and gay folk within the trans community. It raises a few questions: is there a correlation? Or maybe, once you come out as trans, sexuality seems less of a big deal, and the numbers more accurately reflect human sexuality.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

WamphyriThrall said:


> There's actually a larger number of bisexuals, pansexuals, and gay folk within the trans community. It raises a few questions: is there a correlation? Or maybe, once you come out as trans, sexuality seems less of a big deal, and the numbers more accurately reflect human sexuality.


I don't think there is a correlation. I think those people have a easier time, they'll be less judged for it than a family man who is hetro but always felt like a woman inside.


----------



## WamphyriThrall

Aya of Rivia said:


> I don't think there is a correlation. I think those people have a easier time, they'll be less judged for it than a family man who is hetro but always felt like a woman inside.


Well, I say this since there's a larger number of gender non-conforming individuals in the LGB community, with some straddling the line between trans and cis. For the longest time, scientists thought gay men and women were members of the opposite sex trapped in their bodies, and even more recently, terms like "homosexual transsexual" were used. Some thought straight trans men and women were simply "extreme" gay men and lesbians.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

WamphyriThrall said:


> Well, I say this since there's a larger number of gender non-conforming individuals in the LGB community, with some straddling the line between trans and cis. For the longest time, scientists thought gay men and women were members of the opposite sex trapped in their bodies, and even more recently, terms like "homosexual transsexual" were used. Some thought straight trans men and women were simply "extreme" gay men and lesbians.


I think the key word is non-conforming. Sometimes it's not that you want to conform even, it's that you have to if you want to have a conformable life. It would be the first or the last case I heard of a family man after his 40s getting a sex change because it's what he really wanted, but the fact is that after that change her life becomes much harder. As such, some chose to conform and life their lives as men even though they don't think themselves as such.
The thought they had was the most logical for the knowledge that they had at the time, since a transperson usually shows interest in sex they seem themselves attracted to in their true sex/gender/whatever.


----------



## WamphyriThrall

Aya of Rivia said:


> I think the key word is non-conforming. Sometimes it's not that you want to conform even, it's that you have to if you want to have a conformable life. It would be the first or the last case I heard of a family man after his 40s getting a sex change because it's what he really wanted, but the fact is that after that change her life becomes much harder. As such, some chose to conform and life their lives as men even though they don't think themselves as such.
> The thought they had was the most logical for the knowledge that they had at the time, since a transperson usually shows interest in sex they seem themselves attracted to in their true sex/gender/whatever.


Indeed, many of the first known transsexual women were solely attracted to men. In general, they transitioned earlier, showed a greater degree of femininity, and went the full process. Again, whether it was due to requirements from the "gatekeepers" at the time or not is anyone's guess. 

But then, I've known some who were completely masculine (or feminine, if trans male) prior, while others were basically living their true gender. There are studies how both gay men and trans women (or gay women and trans men) have either "feminized" or "masculinized" brains, but that's looking at straight trans populations, so I wonder how it would hold up against the others?

Why are some out and adamant from such an early age, while others are "fine" waiting until they're older? I don't think they should be classified under the same sub-population, personally. Oh, they're both trans, but I'm not sure it's completely down to individual choice for everyone. 

It's a more complicated topic to solve in just a few short decades.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

WamphyriThrall said:


> Indeed, many of the first known transsexual women were solely attracted to men. In general, they transitioned earlier, showed a greater degree of femininity, and went the full process. Again, whether it was due to requirements from the "gatekeepers" at the time or not is anyone's guess.


I always thought that there is/was a greater attention give to transwomen rather than transmen. Maybe because it is a man transitioning the transition is far harder and therefore far more impressive when they look like women (which a lot do and it's amazing). I don't know. I just how I feel.



> There are studies how both gay men and trans women (or gay women and trans men) have either "feminized" or "masculinized" brains, but that's looking at straight trans populations, so I wonder how it would hold up against the others?


I don't know how that works honestly. Some studies have said that there are no differences between the female and male brain. I think it's far more complex than just having a feminized brain, it has a lot to do with the person' experiences and hormones I would say. I reckon that with a different life experience I could easily have been trans.



> Why are some out and adamant from such an early age, while others are "fine" waiting until they're older? I don't think they should be classified under the same sub-population, personally. Oh, they're both trans, but I'm not sure it's completely down to individual choice for everyone.


I think it has to do with the generation they're from and with the relation of their own problems and their own identity.



> It's a more complicated topic to solve in just a few short decades.


I would say it will take more than a few short decades to solve it.


----------



## hauntology

hey, I've been out in the forums for a while and out in person for about a year!!! I don't know what the current topics of conversation are, but hello!


----------



## He's a Superhero!

Entropic said:


> I'm demisexual but panromantic, whatever. Can be with anyone as long as I like them, pretty much. And yes, you are right on the former. The problem stems from early assumptions that MTF are still male and FTM are still female and they define sexuality based on your genitalia e.g. how this book released in 2014 on trans sexualities still refer MTFs as males and are homosexual when they date other men (autogynephilic).


Ah, I forgot demisexual...Knew I forgot one.

The thing is they found that trans identifying children naturally react to tests the way the gender they view themselves as would react - and the tests were fast paced, not giving the children time to think before they reacted. Apparently cisgendered homosexual people react according to their own gender norm (male will react the way males typically react, female will react the way females typically react). That shows there is a deeper difference than what that book was claiming.



WamphyriThrall said:


> There's actually a larger number of bisexuals, pansexuals, and gay folk within the trans community. It raises a few questions: is there a correlation? Or maybe, once you come out as trans, sexuality seems less of a big deal, and the numbers more accurately reflect human sexuality.





Aya of Rivia said:


> I don't think there is a correlation. I think those people have a easier time, they'll be less judged for it than a family man who is hetro but always felt like a woman inside.


You both raise interesting points.


----------



## corpusaurelius

WamphyriThrall said:


> There's actually a larger number of bisexuals, pansexuals, and gay folk within the trans community. It raises a few questions: is there a correlation? Or maybe, once you come out as trans, sexuality seems less of a big deal, and the numbers more accurately reflect human sexuality.


gender identity and sexual orientation are different. 

does every lesbian believe she is trans?


----------



## WamphyriThrall

corpusaurelius said:


> gender identity and sexual orientation are different.
> 
> does every lesbian believe she is trans?


No, but there are plenty of trans guys, for example, who were formerly identified as lesbians.

Same with trans women Carmen Carrera being hugely into drag, prior to transitioning.

It's also not uncommon for young gay boys and girls to want to be the opposite sex, or to admire, identify more with them.

So I definitely think there's some overlap (one reason I object to those who insist the T be removed from the LGB).


----------



## Metalize

Eyy Space Junkie


----------



## Kerik_S

WamphyriThrall said:


> No, but there are plenty of trans guys, for example, who were formerly identified as lesbians.
> 
> Same with trans women Carmen Carrera being hugely into drag, prior to transitioning.
> 
> It's also not uncommon for young gay boys and girls to want to be the opposite sex, or to admire, identify more with them.
> 
> So I definitely think there's some overlap (one reason I object to those who insist the T be removed from the LGB).


I found it interesting that Carmen, as a "drag queen", was primarily focused on her body. Her way of dealing with dysphoria pre-transition was to be a "fishy drag queen".


----------



## Entropic

With that said, sexuality is partially identified as having genetic causes such as brain morphology. Now what would be interesting would be to compare straight trans guys with say, butch women, and observe how their brains are similar or different.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Entropic said:


> With that said, sexuality is partially identified as having genetic causes such as brain morphology. Now what would be interesting would be to compare straight trans guys with say, butch women, and observe how their brains are similar or different.


I think this would be especially interesting if we mixed up things and observed the brain of a hetro masculine woman and of a masculine guy of any sexuality and see how similar and different they're and things like that.


----------



## Playful Proxy

That satisfying moment when you go out in public in male work attire and you either get gendered female, or get very confused stares with no gender marker proclaimed after them having gendered the person in front and behind you with a "sir" or "maam" greeting. (I have to still present male at work for the time being)


----------



## Jennywocky

He's a Superhero! said:


> Do we have any trans people who are also homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, omnisexual, or asexual here on PerC?


The one trans person I've dated identified as pansexual.



> Oddly enough some people seem to assume that trans people are all homosexual by default, even though (from my understanding, so correct me if I'm wrong...I'm still learning about this subject) they simply have the wrong body to what their gender actually is...This means that a female-to-male trans person who is sexually attracted to women, or a male-to-female trans person who is sexually attracted to men, would technically be heterosexual.


Yup. I'd classify myself as a Kinsey 1 (AKA Predominately heterosexual [into guys], only incidentally homosexual). But it seems like a lot of the transwomen I know in person are in relationships with women or other transwomen. I see a lot more straight (AKA into women) transguys, although I know some gay ones as well.

I wonder how much of that (at least for transwomen) involves not having a strict straight or gay orientation but flex + either that women are safer to deal with and/or the whole "easier to date a trans person because we understand each other's experience" thing is in play. People seem to get bewildered on how to feel / deal with transpeople, whereas until you tell them, they just take you at face value.



Kerik_S said:


> I found it interesting that Carmen, as a "drag queen", was primarily focused on her body. Her way of dealing with dysphoria pre-transition was to be a "fishy drag queen".


There was also the weird thing where she was scared to come out as trans because she felt like all her drag friends would reject her. Overall in my experience I've felt like other women "grasp" transwomen better than gay males or drag queens; I think it's because they just try to read transwomen as having the same motivations and needs they do.


----------



## Metalize

About to get my first shot. excited but scared


----------



## 95134hks

Pirate said:


> My family is pentecostal. (excluding said sister.) One of them is even studiying to become a pastor. You weren't there when my sister (the same sister who probably won't care) told them she was bi. I don't think I've ever heard a more demeaning speech in my life, and she isn't allowed to take girls home. Even if they don't disown me outright (which they might,) they won't be worth being around. Every 3rd word (I am exaggerating but not as much as you may think) will be misguided, hurtful attempts to fix me or refusing to respect my wishes.


The Anglicans have lesbians in their priesthood. That's doubly controversial.

Not all Christian faiths view ****- and/or bi-sexuality the same.

I wonder if the Muslims have any particular rules on the books for this? I know that a lot of Muslim youth are bisexual as a result of their strict rules of female chastity before marriage. I lived in Morocco and I saw it all with my own eyes.

But I have not heard anything at all officially from anyone who is a Muslim.

I wonder how the Muslims would react to sex change surgery ??

Perhaps they would view it as yet another form of Western corruption ?!


----------



## Playful Proxy

Pirate said:


> My family is pentecostal. (excluding said sister.) One of them is even studiying to become a pastor. You weren't there when my sister (the same sister who probably won't care) told them she was bi. I don't think I've ever heard a more demeaning speech in my life, and she isn't allowed to take girls home. Even if they don't disown me outright (which they might,) they won't be worth being around. Every 3rd word (I am exaggerating but not as much as you may think) will be misguided, hurtful attempts to fix me or refusing to respect my wishes.


Whooo, overzealous christian parents. Tbh, the best thing you can do is to try to live through it the best you can until you can secure your own living arrangements away from your parents. I'm to the point where I live away from my parents now and I've been on hormones so long that most people don't even know I'm trans, the other I've told.


----------



## Jennywocky

Pirate said:


> My family is pentecostal. (excluding said sister.) One of them is even studiying to become a pastor. You weren't there when my sister (the same sister who probably won't care) told them she was bi. I don't think I've ever heard a more demeaning speech in my life, and she isn't allowed to take girls home. Even if they don't disown me outright (which they might,) they won't be worth being around. Every 3rd word (I am exaggerating but not as much as you may think) will be misguided, hurtful attempts to fix me or refusing to respect my wishes.


Yeah, it's best to toss a buffer in there, and I wouldn't tell them anything until you are prepared to live independently without having to rely on your family for anything. 

Once you tell them, the cognitive dissonance springs up and they'll have to wrestle with it, and you don't know how it'll pan out although you've already had an example of their inability to initially deal with your sister. Maybe over time this can change, but if someone's views are very entrenched, it'll take a lot of oomph from other sources to get them to reconsider and would also take a great deal of time as they try to reconcile everything.



95134hks said:


> The Anglicans have lesbians in their priesthood. That's doubly controversial.
> 
> Not all Christian faiths view ****- and/or bi-sexuality the same.
> 
> I wonder if the Muslims have any particular rules on the books for this? I know that a lot of Muslim youth are bisexual as a result of their strict rules of female chastity before marriage. I lived in Morocco and I saw it all with my own eyes.
> 
> But I have not heard anything at all officially from anyone who is a Muslim.
> 
> I wonder how the Muslims would react to sex change surgery ??
> 
> Perhaps they would view it as yet another form of Western corruption ?!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexuality_in_Iran

I thought it was interesting that Ayotollah Khomeini as far back as 1963 imposed no restriction on this kind of medical treatment, and you were accepted in Iran as your new gender, with updated legal status. This view has been upheld since Ali Khamenei took over. But you are just expected to exercise discretion about sharing your past, due to potential cultural issues. You are also expected to undergo treatment; in this the West has become more fluid with its "non op's" and genderfluidity. Iran seems to have very rigid lines between male and female, you just get the two buckets; and while they permit you to cross them, you have to be in one or the other.

But there are many countries that are predominately Muslim, and some are not nearly as accommodating and in fact can be oppressive.



> I always track and comment on thread history when a thread is ancient and has been resurrected.
> 
> You are a prominent player in this one. I have seen your posts to it over several years.
> 
> Just saying ... .


I'm not sure why you are calling out Aya here. This has become the Trans Support thread. So it's going to be ongoing, and people will post in it when they need someone to talk to. This is why it is in the category of a sticky thread, versus your run of the mill thread that fades away once people stop posting or when the OP is no longer around. So who happens to post when is rather irrelevant in that context, correct?

Oh dear, did you actually read the whole thread? Gold stars for your commitment, Lol.


----------



## 95134hks

Jennywocky said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexuality_in_Iran
> 
> I thought it was interesting that Ayotollah Khomeini as far back as 1963 imposed no restriction on this kind of medical treatment, and you were accepted in Iran as your new gender, with updated legal status. This view has been upheld since Ali Khamenei took over. But you are just expected to exercise discretion about sharing your past, due to potential cultural issues. You are also expected to undergo treatment; in this the West has become more fluid with its "non op's" and genderfluidity. Iran seems to have very rigid lines between male and female, you just get the two buckets; and while they permit you to cross them, you have to be in one or the other.
> 
> But there are many countries that are predominately Muslim, and some are not nearly as accommodating and in fact can be oppressive.


Iran is Shia and this certainly speaks well of the Shia.

I wonder where the Sunni are on this?

Thanks for the update Jenny.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

95134hks said:


> I always track and comment on thread history when a thread is ancient and has been resurrected.
> 
> You are a prominent player in this one. I have seen your posts to it over several years.
> 
> Just saying ... .


First I'm not playing a game here, secondly if I revive it, it is with a very good reason. And it's not my cat, I assure you.


----------



## 95134hks

Aya of Rivia said:


> First I'm not playing a game here, secondly if I revive it, it is with a very good reason. And it's not my cat, I assure you.


You are playing games all the time.

You are the primary resurrector of this one.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

95134hks said:


> You are playing games all the time.
> 
> You are the primary resurrector of this one.


I only play games when I turn on the PS3. Expect when 










Then it's a test to my anger.

Dark Souls and life aren't games, they're supposed to be taken seriously.


----------



## 95134hks

Aya of Rivia said:


> I only play games when I turn on the PS3. Expect when
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then it's a test to my anger.
> 
> Dark Souls and life aren't games, they're supposed to be taken seriously.


Gaming is hot, I have heard.

There are several gaming companies here in the megalopolis where I live and they often advertise for CPA's and MBA's to help them with their business.

The developers are all very young, sometimes extremely young.

The whole industry seems to be a fascinating waste of time -- however very popular and probably addicting.

Some young people even devote their entire lives to their online personas. Gives a whole new meaning to "introverted" but in the social sense not the decision making sense.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

95134hks said:


> Gaming is hot, I have heard.
> 
> There are several gaming companies here in the megalopolis where I live and they often advertise for CPA's and MBA's to help them with their business.
> 
> The developers are all very young, sometimes extremely young.
> 
> The whole industry seems to be a fascinating waste of time -- however very popular and probably addicting.
> 
> Some young people even devote their entire lives to their online personas. Gives a whole new meaning to "introverted" but in the social sense not the decision making sense.


I don't play online, I wouldn't know. All I do is play the story, read the lore and discuss it.


----------



## 95134hks

Aya of Rivia said:


> I don't play online, I wouldn't know. All I do is play the story, read the lore and discuss it.


So you were referring (indirectly) to a "story" then ?!

Ok.

Sure.

Anyway in his book on chess, Aron Nimzowitsch pointed out that "everyone plays games even God."


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

95134hks said:


> So you were referring (indirectly) to a "story" then ?!
> 
> Ok.
> 
> Sure.
> 
> Anyway in his book on chess, Aron Nimzowitsch pointed out that "everyone plays games even God."


I'm not being indirect about it, I play video games for the plot. Why do you think I like Bloodborne? I mean, the gothic look is fine and Alfred is cute, but DAMN THE LORE. DAT LORE.


----------



## 95134hks

Aya of Rivia said:


> I'm not being indirect about it, I play video games for the plot. Why do you think I like Bloodborne? I mean, the gothic look is fine and Alfred is cute, but DAMN THE LORE. DAT LORE.


I have never heard of those things.

That looks like a sick chicken from an oil slick to me.

We have a lot of oil spills here on the West Coast.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

95134hks said:


> I have never heard of those things.
> 
> That looks like a sick chicken from an oil slick to me.
> 
> We have a lot of oil slicks here on the West Coast.







http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lore


----------



## 95134hks

Aya of Rivia said:


> Lore | Define Lore at Dictionary.com


Still looks like a sick chicken dipped in oil from an oil spill.

I like old movies.

Especially Westerns.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

95134hks said:


> Still looks like a sick chicken dipped in oil from an oil spill.
> 
> I like old movies.
> 
> Especially Westerns.


Do you have any further questions that might relevant to this thread or are you just gonna keep making no sense while people try talking to you?


----------



## 95134hks

Aya of Rivia said:


> Do you have any further questions that might relevant to this thread or are you just gonna keep making no sense while people try talking to you?


Well, my original point was that you yourself have from time to time resurrected the thread and rejuvenated it.

You were flippant about that so I simply followed your thread trail afterwards. Two can play THAT game.

You might want to give some insight as to why you have from time to time resurrected the thread and rejuvenated it.

That would certainly be interesting, at least to me.

The original thread topic was parents rejecting and casting out their own children when the children make radical unconventional taboo decisions.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

95134hks said:


> Well, my original point was that you yourself have from time to time resurrected the thread and rejuvenated it.
> 
> You were flippant about that so I simply followed your thread trail afterwards. Two can play THAT game.
> 
> You might want to give some insight as to why you have from time to time resurrected the thread and rejuvenated it.
> 
> That would certainly be interesting, at least to me.







Didn't you read why? My boyfriend is a transsexual.


----------



## 95134hks

Aya of Rivia said:


> Didn't you read why? My boyfriend is a transsexual.


And I take it from your implications that his parents did not approve either?


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

95134hks said:


> And I take it from your implications that his parents did not approve either?


His family is fine with it.


----------



## 95134hks

Parents are people just like any other people are people.

They are sensitive to certain gut level reactions (now called visceral in the modern buzz word terminology).

For example my mom hates Russians so if I were to take a job at the Russian embassy or move to Russia she would probably disown me.

I have lots of friend who are Russian by the way, just to be clear. But my mom lived through the Russian occupation of Eastern Europe and her experiences were probably not too good -- just for example.

Maybe I am just ultra liberal in some ways but I don't think anyone should blame people for not accepting their decisions.

Seems like just a part of the price of the freedom to do and be whatever you want.

I personally do not understand androgyny or transgender-ism.

In the workplace however Federal law requires equal opportunity and I DO believe in that.

So some level of tolerance of radical taboo choices is needed, certainly at least in most job sites.

That is one thing that working and living in the San Francisco Bay Area including Oakland and San Jose has taught me -- tolerance.

Tolerance is an ideal.

But like all ideals tolerance is not always easy.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Aya of Rivia said:


> Are they? Usually people identify with female or make in different degrees. I don't believe in people who says that have no gender or genderfuild or bigender. I tried reading about it from many sources and, especially, genderfuility sounds like a mental illness because they often speak of a complete change in personality.


tbh I don't really understand bigender/genderfluid either, but then again I don't "understand" transsexuals or the many cis people I've heard who "feel like a man/woman" because I don't feel like anything but a me. To me the existence of transsexuals and cis people who clearly feel like a particular gender make it all the more obvious that I am lacking some innate sense of gendered self that the majority of people have. because even cis people who get to not think about their gender will still endorse feeling like a man/woman when you get them to discuss it. and cis people don't experience dysphoria from being gendered the way I do.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

lolthevoidlol said:


> tbh I don't really understand bigender/genderfluid either, but then again I don't "understand" transsexuals or the many cis people I've heard who "feel like a man/woman" because I don't feel like anything but a me. To me the existence of transsexuals and cis people who clearly feel like a particular gender make it all the more obvious that I am lacking some innate sense of gendered self that the majority of people have. because even cis people who get to not think about their gender will still endorse feeling like a man/woman when you get them to discuss it. and cis people don't experience dysphoria from being gendered the way I do.


Exactly, you're you, the rest is bullshit 90% of the time.

I feel that feel of a female and male difference is stronger when you speak a gendered language like I do because there is no neutrality.


----------



## Entropic

Playful Proxy said:


> Transsexual is a transgender person who transitions medically and socially,


I'd say that's a very limited understanding of the word transgender. There are at least three in common use, which is highly dependent on how you understand the word "trans":

1. To move forward
2. To cross over
3. Change

The one definition you use here is 1), but it is hardly the only one way to understand the word transgender. It's extremely nebulous, which is why people have begun to opt the simpler trans*, with our without an asterisk, in recent years, because that way people do not make any claims to the interpretative meaning of "trans" for the matter, "sexual" or "gender". 



> transgender is someone who transitions at least socially, transtrender is someone who doesn't transition because 'I don't need to' and demands elaborate pronouns or switches them on a regular basis. If it's a "you've obviously never heard of it" gender, just ignore them.


Why are we even discussing or comparing to transtrender to everything else in this context? Quite irrelevant, imo. I say that it is still negotiable whether they are a part of the trans umbrella and currently most people feel they are not, as they are closer to otherkin which is an entire different group of people. 



> Tumblr's on the oppression-olympics right now so people want to say how oppressed they are, not really trans? That's cool, just make up this really flashy (ommmmnigender, wooooah) sounding gender and call yourself trans anyway? Actual diagnosis on mental illness? Just diagnose yourself, that's the same thing, right? In my experience, agender and genderqueer happens to be the default titles people claim when they're not really trans but want to be able to say they are. Mostly AFAAB claiming agender "I don't feel like I have a gender" most people don't 'feel' male or female on a daily basis, that doesn't mean you lack a gender, just trans people have dysphoria. "But I don't fit with female gender roles", well duh, gender roles are restrictive as hell, not fitting them doesn't make you a different gender.


I thought we established that a) Tumblr should not be used as the prime example of anything trans representative and b) that trans is not an actual mental diagnosis but is there as a placeholder in order to ensure trans people the right for the medical interventions they need to make them happy. Remove the diagnosis and most of those interventions would be denied to you, including other forms of interventions that would legitimize your gender in society. 

Also, the reality for AFAB is very different than it is for AMAB, you realize this? Like seriously, what is your fucking beef with AFABs? Were you me? Did you grow up as me? Do you know my story and my experiences? I sure as hell don't fucking kick down on you so don't you even dare to kick down on me and other AFABs. A lot of AFABs often "grow" into their gendered experiences because they are usually raised towards a different set of values and into a very different social environment than AMABs where there are no real strict or clear gender delineations. AFABs are often expected to strive towards masculine expressiveness as it is a way to "empower" female-bodied individuals in society. It creates a space where AFABs don't know exactly how to position themselves on the gender spectrum because there is much greater fluidity in how far they are allowed to identify themselves than there is for AMABs. 



> This is why I'm voting we just start a separation between people actively trying to medically transition and blend into society vs those who are just there to color their bangs on a pixie cut and stand out. I don't how people want to present themselves in public, just don't bastardize the name of a marginalized group to do it. I'm not saying nonbinary people don't exist, just that most of the people I run into who identity as nonbinary arn't really trans, have no dysphoria or issue with their identity, but just see it as a new fashion trend that grants them a shiny new title to call themselves. "I'm a pansexual panromantic omnigender vegan you simple 'normal' cis woman. My pronouns are om/nom/omnomberrypie"


Yeah, so these people threaten the fuck out of your own sense of authentic identity but that hardly gives you the right to shit on them no matter how much you desire to do so. You shit on their identities and their legitimate sense of self, and they have the equal right to shit on you for exactly the very same thing. You know what threatens me and my sense of authentic self? Extremely butch lesbians who despite such strong identification with masculinity do not experience themselves as men. It threatens me because it questions the foundation of the legitimacy of my own identity which is why there is such a thing as butch vs FTM turf wars (apparently FTMs threaten the legitimacy of butch lesbians as well). 

I could resort to let my fear of butch lesbians take over and just go on a shitstorm on how I hate butch and how it's an invalid way to express one's sexuality and gender identity but I won't because I recognize and realize that I'm a) being irrational and b) butch lesbians have as much right to exist and claim their identity as I do. 

What's even more offensive to all this is how you and @Aya of Rivia are shitting on non-binary in this very thread while being engaged with non-binary people. Like who the fuck are you to claim them as inauthentic/fake/mentally ill/don't exist, really? Isn't that exactly the same fucking thing heterocissexist society has done to trans people for fucking centuries? How about some fucking solidarity and compassion for a change? To recognize that their gender expressions and identities are as fucking valid as yours and we are all a part of the damn trans umbrella whether you like it or not and instead of feeling threatened in your identities so you rather wage turf wars as to who is or isn't trans, go out there and go tell cissociety to simply deal with it? 

Because what you are doing right now isn't cool. Again, Tumblr isn't the end all of anything trans or even non-binary related so stop use it as if it is and stop use it to justify you shitting on non-binary people because non-binaries threaten your sense of authentic self and the legitimacy of your identity in society at large. You are not the gender police, no one is the damn gender police, and no one has the right to be the damn gender police. Only the person in question has the right to define who they fucking are, even if that means calling himself a lesbian FTM or a genderfucked femme XtX whatever labels people wanna use. They are not yours to decide. They simply are not. You do one thing, and that's respect them whether you like them or whether you think they make sense. Otherwise you're doing the same fucking thing cis people do to you whenever they purposefully misname and misgender you and that's not ok, is it? So why the fuck is it ok when it's a non-binary who is the subject of the very same behavior? 

Fucking think a little and re-examine your own position on the matter and where this hate towards certain liminal groups within the trans community comes from, because chances are that hate stems out of your issues and your insecurity, and has nothing to do with these people and their experiences and existences. What do they do to you? Nothing. They exist, as you do. Maybe you should let them do that without so actively trying to erase them as if not mattering. The same erasure heterocissexist society has done to trans people for fucking centuries.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

My boyfriend doesn't describes himself as non binary. He is a man. The End.


----------



## Pirate

Aya of Rivia said:


> Exactly, you're you, the rest is bullshit 90% of the time.


That was my opinion until just a little while ago, it did not work out so well. I'd say it verges on invalidating peoples (potentially including your own) feelings of their subjective experience. I'm not even sure what my opinion is anymore. I might just have to step back, admit I don't know enough to really form an opinion, and make my new opinion that I have no opinion.


----------



## Entropic

Also, transsexuals are not some fucking top dog who gets the right to say who is or isn't trans simply by virtue of being favored by the psychomedical community and being the most accepted form of trans by cishet society. Just because TS has been the most widely endorsed and accepted form of transness since Hirschfield's invention of the transvestite as a medical term in 1910, it doesn't mean the transsexual has the right to erase other trans experiences and identities because theirs do not fit the definition of a transsexual.

Furthermore, the assignment of transsexual is not an assignment of identity but it is _a medical condition_. This means that anyone who fits the medical definition of TS will be TS, even if that person is actually identified as genderqueer but they otherwise fit the diagnostic criteria for TS. This is why a lot of people receive TS as a diagnosis at the local gender clinic here, though I'd argue a vast majority of all the young people who apply and go through the system are in some way, non-binary and are not "true transsexuals" in the strict medical use of the term. The fact that we even still use such outdated nonsense to label groups of people as being more or less true should tell you something about how outdated this worldview is in itself, still rooted in ideas of essentialism.

To clarify further, I say this as a transsexual who has received the medical diagnosis of transsexual (yes, it's official and I have it on paper). I also say this as a binary trans person.







TL;DR A TRANS PERSON IS A TRANS PERSON IS A TRANS PERSON.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Pirate said:


> That was my opinion until just a little while ago, it did not work out so well. I'd say it verges on invalidating peoples (potentially including your own) feelings of their subjective experience. I'm not even sure what my opinion is anymore. I might just have to step back, admit I don't know enough to really form an opinion, and make my new opinion that I have no opinion.


I Just go by what I experience.


----------



## Pirate

Aya of Rivia said:


> I Just go by what I experience.


What you experience isn't what I experience and thus your experience is useless for judging anything related to mine. (or anyone elses.)

To give an example, I have knee problems. If I sit crosslegged or walk around for too long they really hurt. When I complain or say I'd rather not do something because my knees hurt, even though I've explained that I have knee problems, people assume I just mean that my knees are tired and ache a little because their (almost everyones) knees are like that if they're worked too hard. Well with me it's not just a little ache, it's a powerful throbing pain and persistant weakness that will make my knees give out at random and leave me more or less stuck on the couch for an entire weekend because I can barely walk and need to recover or I'll be physically unable to walk half way through the week. 

If you haven't actually experienced that, any judgement you make on my condition is worthless at best and actively harmful at worst. I don't see why any other experience wouldn't work the same way. If you haven't been there then you can't make an accurate judgement, and considering you can't be inside someone elses head all judgements about their experience of their identity are effectively worthless (at best.)


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Allow me to express myself better because it is clear that I have used too little words and made myself sound like an asshole

Because I have most people claiming this are on tumblr or sites with similar ideologies I have dismissed it as a try to be special and unique, not a legitimate thing. It is something I don't understand. When I read on these things they normally talk about it in terms that makes me think that these people need help, not that are a brand new gender. Because on tumblr they say anything they want but how does this translates in real life? I've never seen ones or proof outside of these sites that such a thing exists and even if you're bigender or genderfuild you're still inside the male female binary, so I don't really get it how is it that being outside of the binary.
Another thing is that people who say these things are the first to attack people like my boyfriend because he is white. This I have created a resistance. They attack me because I'm white. This there is a bias. See what I mean? I cannot grasp it even being with who I'm. Because I'm with him doesn't mean I will fully understand it. Telling me I should be ashamed and I'm scum isn't the right way to make me understand it either.

I should also add that I come from a gendered language and that affects how I see myself and that I have deep self loathing for being me.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Entropic said:


> Why are we even discussing or comparing to transtrender to everything else in this context? Quite irrelevant, imo. I say that it is still negotiable whether they are a part of the trans umbrella and currently most people feel they are not, as they are closer to otherkin which is an entire different group of people.


You need to understand that I see trans as a medical condition, not an identity game for people to choose their identity at their leisure. In my book, if you're trans, you have dysphoria, and that's something that's not going to change. You're not going to feel male one day, female the next, and like a lizard the next. There's no medical explanation for that other than mental illness. I view transgender from the perspective of that I happened to be born with this bullshit that's not going away, and I"m doing what I have to so I can move on with my life. It's less that I'm rebuking nonbinary people as a whole, I'm rebuking the use of gender as a form of identity and that it has any 'choice' in the matter. It just so happens that a huge share of nonbinary people I run into are just AFAB's with no intention on any kind of transition and are merely begging for attention. I just ignore them and leave them be in those cases, but I don't view their 'identity' as legitimate or having any reasonable explanation or even standing on the same ground with people who have a legitimate medical concern. That's the thing, you're saying gender identity doesn't technically have medical roots when I'm arguing it does, or at least dysphoria does. 




Entropic said:


> Also, the reality for AFAB is very different than it is for AMAB, you realize this? Like seriously, what is your fucking beef with AFABs? Were you me? Did you grow up as me? Do you know my story and my experiences? I sure as hell don't fucking kick down on you so don't you even dare to kick down on me and other AFABs. A lot of AFABs often "grow" into their gendered experiences because they are usually raised towards a different set of values and into a very different social environment than AMABs where there are no real strict or clear gender delineations. AFABs are often expected to strive towards masculine expressiveness as it is a way to "empower" female-bodied individuals in society. It creates a space where AFABs don't know exactly how to position themselves on the gender spectrum because there is much greater fluidity in how far they are allowed to identify themselves than there is for AMABs.


Here's where we differ. I don't care about someone's self-expression, butch lesbians are still women no matter how masculinely they present themselves, that's a given. But a lot of AFABs these days get the twisted idea that to present themselves a certain way requires an explanation, and instead of saying, "Gender roles on women are fucking infuriating and I don't want to deal with that", they turn to taking on various labels to go, "See, not really female so these roles don't apply to me". Some mistake their frustration with social requirements as dysphoria and that's point #2 I disagree with. I feel many are confused on how gender identity works and I find the use 'identity' in this context equally dubious because it leads so many to thinking, "Oh, gender's easy, I can be whatever I want!" That's...not how it works, at all. I've seen too many people do it in my experience, and they go back to 'identifying' as cis a couple years later. I'm sure there may be legitimate non-binary people with actual dysphoria, I've got a bigender acquaintance who does, and when I make accusations, I'm not saying all nonbinary people are illegitimate, just that a large majority are and don't possess an ounce of dysphoria, and the effect their existence has on how others perceive me in society as a trans person makes me want them away from me and disassociated with them. You can claim I'm, "shitting on their authentic sense of self" but I just don't see it that way. Dysphoria exists, it's what put me into all this mess, and if I'd had any choice in the matter, I'd not have transitioned because of all the hassle and pain of it all. 

I have a similar view of other-kin as I do of people who claim completely out there gender 'identities'. Do as they please and I just won't be around it, whatever, but one group directly affects how I'm treated in society. I don't want something I've suffered heavily for to be ignored and cast aside by the general public because the group I supposedly belong to has become dominantly people who take on names for shits and giggles and who change day to day on the regular as it's nothing more than a game to them. That's why I want a separation between people who need to medically transition and the group who are just doing it for self-expression purposes, one has a medical cause and they're just trying to move on with their lives, another is just having fun. Have fun, I don't mind, just don't do it with a label that causes people who legitimately need medical assistance to not be taken seriously.

I'm sure you're inclined to go, "But if you don't take most nonbinary people seriously, why should cis people take you seriously?" Because my primary goal is to reintegrate into society, not wave a flag around stepping on toes whilst burning bridges. This is why I get along better with cis people, even as a trans person. I just want to reintegrate into society and as my bf put it, "I'm just a woman, not a trans woman". While not technically true, I didn't transition to garner attention for having a special label, I'm not trying to draw attention to myself, and I am working to pass so it's not even knowable that I'm trans to begin with. The public can't illegitimatize that which they don't even know about. That's the difference, I don't exist to loudly argue with people in public that they are rude because they don't call me par/par/parself for pronouns(without any regard for the feelings they're indignantly correcting), to take every opportunity in public to talk about how trans I am (just a pixie cut with dyed hair, of course and maybe a vegan diet), or arguing constantly that gender's a social construct. No, gender identity has biological roots; dysphoria has biological roots. Gender role, self expression, those are all social constructs.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

A quote by boyfriend regarding this:

"It doesn't matter if you don't fully understand my experience or non binaries. You like me and I like you. You see me as a man and that's all that matters."


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Playful Proxy said:


> I'm sure you're inclined to go, "But if you don't take most nonbinary people seriously, why should cis people take you seriously?" Because my primary goal is to reintegrate into society, not wave a flag around stepping on toes whilst burning bridges.


this sounds like the argument between "straight acting" and flamboyant gays, where one deems the other too weird and loud and fears the backlash of heteronormativity


----------



## Playful Proxy

lolthevoidlol said:


> this sounds like the argument between "straight acting" and flamboyant gays, where one deems the other too weird and loud and fears the backlash of heteronormativity


Being aggravated by someone being too loud isn't enforcing heteronomativity, it's being a normal human being with consideration for those around them. I swear people get off on playing the victim.


----------



## marblecloud95

Non-binary system reporting in.


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## Entropic

Playful Proxy said:


> You need to understand that I see trans as a medical condition, not an identity game for people to choose their identity at their leisure. In my book, if you're trans, you have dysphoria, and that's something that's not going to change. You're not going to feel male one day, female the next, and like a lizard the next. There's no medical explanation for that other than mental illness. I view transgender from the perspective of that I happened to be born with this bullshit that's not going away, and I"m doing what I have to so I can move on with my life. It's less that I'm rebuking nonbinary people as a whole, I'm rebuking the use of gender as a form of identity and that it has any 'choice' in the matter. It just so happens that a huge share of nonbinary people I run into are just AFAB's with no intention on any kind of transition and are merely begging for attention. I just ignore them and leave them be in those cases, but I don't view their 'identity' as legitimate or having any reasonable explanation or even standing on the same ground with people who have a legitimate medical concern. That's the thing, you're saying gender identity doesn't technically have medical roots when I'm arguing it does, or at least dysphoria does.


You are definitely entitled to your opinion, but I certainly do not enjoy the idea of being pathologized, which subsequently suggests I'm a a freak, perverse, mentally ill, sick and so on, and the only way to "treat" me is to give me a penis. Like wtf, no offense, but why in the world would you want to reinforce the psychomedical discourse of trans people? All it does is acting like gatekeeping by slapping you a label of being "mentally insane". You are aware that the ICD-10 treats TS as a diagnosis as a personality disorder, right? So if you have TS your diagnosis, you now officially suffer from a personality disorder. I certainly don't experience or see myself or my experiences as "disordered" and as is true with most pathologizing, it only becomes a pathology in relation to the heteronormative society, hence there is an implied assumption that to be TS, you should also be straight and so on. 



> Here's where we differ. I don't care about someone's self-expression, butch lesbians are still women no matter how masculinely they present themselves, that's a given.


Guess what? I don't care for someone's self-expression either, and this is exactly why none of this doesn't concern me whatsoever. They can do whatever the fuck they want for all care, as long it makes them happy. Also, butch lesbianness is certainly a mode of womanness, but no, not all butch lesbians experience themselves clearly as women. 



> But a lot of AFABs these days get the* twisted idea* that to present themselves a certain way requires an explanation,


lol, you essentially suggest they are mentally ill or something. 



> and instead of saying, "Gender roles on women are fucking infuriating and I don't want to deal with that", they turn to taking on various labels to go, "See, not really female so these roles don't apply to me".


Maybe they do that because that is how they feel? Did you stop to consider that it may actually be a genuinely felt experience? 



> Some mistake their frustration with social requirements as dysphoria and that's point #2 I disagree with.


Gender dysphoria is poorly defined; it can include both social and physical dimensions. Most of my dysphoria manifested socially because I'm very out of touch with my own body, generally, speaking, so I figured out something wasn't right due to the social roles I was shoveled into. There is not just one main narrative to be trans and this narrative is not the most "right" to be. 



> I feel many are confused on how gender identity works and I find the use 'identity' in this context equally dubious because it leads so many to thinking, "Oh, gender's easy, I can be whatever I want!" *That's...not how it works, at all*.


How do you know? Maybe that _is _how it works for them. 



> I've seen too many people do it in my experience, and they go back to 'identifying' as cis a couple years later.


Or maybe they go back to thinking they are trans again a couple of years later? Why is detransitioning a bad thing? Again, to me it seems to suggest that you don't like anything that threatens your legitimate status as TS. People who transition and then detransition, for example, suggests a more mutable experience of gender and dysphoria as opposed to this essentialist position you are offering and their existences do threaten this position, would people take _their_ narratives as the most dominant view of how to understand gender over yours, thus possibly erasing the legitimacy of your personal experiences. Doesn't mean you have the right to erase theirs just because your narrative is currently seen as the most dominant and accepted. 



> I'm sure there may be legitimate non-binary people with actual dysphoria, I've got a bigender acquaintance who does, and when I make accusations, I'm not saying all nonbinary people are illegitimate, just that a large majority are and don't possess an ounce of dysphoria, and the effect their existence has on how others perceive me in society as a trans person makes me want them away from me and disassociated with them. You can claim I'm, "shitting on their authentic sense of self" but I just don't see it that way. Dysphoria exists, it's what put me into all this mess, and if I'd had any choice in the matter, I'd not have transitioned because of all the hassle and pain of it all.


You do, because you are placing boxes on who you think has the right to be considered trans or not, where you cite dysphoria as the main reason defining reason of who is and who isn't trans. I disagree because I don't think there is one right way to define or understand trans as a word. Yes, dysphoria exists, but dysphoria doesn't exist for all forms of trans categories. That's also true. 



> I have a similar view of other-kin as I do of people who claim completely out there gender 'identities'. Do as they please and I just won't be around it, whatever, but one group directly affects how I'm treated in society.


It really doesn't, though. One could equally argue that you affect how they are directly treated in society in a negatively influenced way. 



> I don't want something I've suffered heavily for to be ignored and cast aside by the general public because the group I supposedly belong to has become dominantly people who take on names for shits and giggles and who change day to day on the regular as it's nothing more than a game to them.


Yup, here it comes: privilege and the fear of losing it.



> That's why I want a separation between people who need to medically transition and the group who are just doing it for self-expression purposes, one has a medical cause and they're just trying to move on with their lives, another is just having fun. Have fun, I don't mind, just don't do it with a label that causes people who legitimately need medical assistance to not be taken seriously.


And what happens if you have a medical cause *and* do it as a form of self-expression? Where do you place these people? That won't happen. If anything the trend is the other way around; the medical system is becoming more lenient and accepting towards a wide variety of expressions and everyone receives the treatment that they deem necessary regardless of how much or how little that is. 



> I'm sure you're inclined to go, "But if you don't take most nonbinary people seriously, why should cis people take you seriously?" Because my primary goal is to reintegrate into society, not wave a flag around stepping on toes whilst burning bridges. This is why I get along better with cis people, even as a trans person. I just want to reintegrate into society and as my bf put it, "I'm just a woman, not a trans woman". While not technically true, I didn't transition to garner attention for having a special label, I'm not trying to draw attention to myself, and I am working to pass so it's not even knowable that I'm trans to begin with. *The public can't illegitimatize that which they don't even know about.* That's the difference, I don't exist to loudly argue with people in public that they are rude because they don't call me par/par/parself for pronouns(without any regard for the feelings they're indignantly correcting), to take every opportunity in public to talk about how trans I am (just a pixie cut with dyed hair, of course and maybe a vegan diet), or arguing constantly that gender's a social construct. No, gender identity has biological roots; dysphoria has biological roots. Gender role, self expression, those are all social constructs.


Of course they can and will; it's called structural discrimination. You can't erase your history, you can only make it less visible. It is up to you to whether you want to live as stealth, but no, those genderqueer people with blue pixie cuts do not at all threaten your right to medical assistance, not if the medical services work as they should, which is that it is offered to everyone who requests it and see themselves in needing it. That's again, regardless of people's self-expressions and actual gender identities. I know plenty of non-binary people who have received the TS label in order to provide them the treatment they want and they simultaneously fit your definition of it down to the blue hair, but the truth is that people don't exist in neat categories. Shouldn't you have figured that out by now, being TS?

You keep presenting non-binary and queer identities as a kind of monolithic picture which you paint into caricature; not every person is that way and I don't agree with it. Non-binary groups do not threaten you as much as you think they do; the acceptance of their group will actually favor you because it means easier access to treatment with less gatekeeping in the long-term, including a less retarded system that tries to monitor and control every little aspect that actually makes assimilation easy. Why would you want that?


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## Aya the Abysswalker

Just because someone is loud expressive doesn't mean they stop being trans or gay or hetro or whatever they are. They still are whatever they 'choose' to be. We cannot ignore their struggles just because herp derp they're too loud and we don't like it durrrrr. Actually those people are more likely to become victims of violence.

I also believe the hetronormative talk is a way to target some behaviours which are not even that bad as bad. Let's not forget that we are different people and wee express ourselves differently. Just because we don't like to hangout with loud people because they attract unwanted attention doesn't mean we're shitlords. There is a difference between being a piece of shit and wanting peace. With that said, I don't mind loudness, I think it's a little cringe worthy sometimes but it's their life, I have nothing to do with it.

I don't understand non binary people because it's not something I deal with and when I ask what it is and if exists I'm meet with aggression. I'm not required to understand it, but I kind of do want to understand them. Why? Because I can. How do this people feel? How is this different from feeling femininity and masculinity in different degrees? I feel more masculine today, but I don't stop being a female because of it? Does it makes sense?


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## lolthevoidlol

Aya of Rivia said:


> I don't understand non binary people because it's not something I deal with and when I ask what it is and if exists I'm meet with aggression. I'm not required to understand it, but I kind of do want to understand them. Why? Because I can. How do this people feel? How is this different from feeling femininity and masculinity in different degrees? I feel more masculine today, but I don't stop being a female because of it? Does it makes sense?


I don't feel feminine or masculine at all. When I stop to think about it I recognize that my traits could be put on some sort of gender checklist and I'd likely pop up as masculine of center, but I do not think of myself in these terms ever. Only when forced to by others. I don't think of myself in a gendered way and never have; I straight up get confused when people refer to me with male/female pronouns because my instinctual reaction to hearing someone referred to by a gender is that someone else who is not me is being spoken of. Femininity and masculinity both feel like dressing up in drag- presenting myself and speaking of myself and thinking of myself in a gendered way feels like playing pretend. And when other people apply gender to me it feels wrong. I experience dysphoria when my disassociation fails and I recognize that I have a body that does not represent me because it strongly signals to others something I am not. I experience dysphoria when others gender me because it signals to me that they don't see who I am and they think I'm something I'm not. I'm seriously considering breast reduction if not top surgery and low doses of T in the hopes that having a more androgynous body will help me be more comfortable both privately and socially. The idea of transitioning medically is a weird one for me because no matter what people are going to try to fit me into a male or female box. I envy transsexuals who know exactly what they want for their bodies because they have a male or female template to work off of. There is no nonbinary template so I just have to figure out what will make me most comfortable in my own skin as I go and hope I don't spend thousands of dollars I can't really afford on irreversible procedures that may not alleviate my dysphoria in the end.

A mental exercise often used with cis people to try to get them to understand transsexuals is to ask them "if you woke up in the opposite body tomorrow, would you be comfortable to be that way forever or would you want your right body back? if you woke up and everyone started referring to you as the other gender, using those pronouns, maybe even changing your name, would you feel comfortable with that or would you want them to refer to you the right way?". Because this goes beyond feeling a bit more masculine or feminine on any given day, or more masculine or feminine than your peers. This is about your level of comfort in your own skin and your comfort with the social interplay that happens when people see you as something other than what you are. For me in this hypothetical, waking up in a female or male body and being addressed with masculine or feminine pronouns for the rest of my life would feel equally wrong.

I hope none of this came across as aggressive as I really just want to describe what my experience is like and what I feel on a daily basis because you said you wanted to understand.


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## Aya the Abysswalker

lolthevoidlol said:


> I don't feel feminine or masculine at all. When I stop to think about it I recognize that my traits could be put on some sort of gender checklist and I'd likely pop up as masculine of center, but I do not think of myself in these terms ever. Only when forced to by others. I don't think of myself in a gendered way and never have; I straight up get confused when people refer to me with male/female pronouns because my instinctual reaction to hearing someone referred to by a gender is that someone else who is not me is being spoken of. Femininity and masculinity both feel like dressing up in drag- presenting myself and speaking of myself and thinking of myself in a gendered way feels like playing pretend. And when other people apply gender to me it feels wrong. I experience dysphoria when my disassociation fails and I recognize that I have a body that does not represent me because it strongly signals to others something I am not. I experience dysphoria when others gender me because it signals to me that they don't see who I am and they think I'm something I'm not. I'm seriously considering breast reduction if not top surgery and low doses of T in the hopes that having a more androgynous body will help me be more comfortable both privately and socially. The idea of transitioning medically is a weird one for me because no matter what people are going to try to fit me into a male or female box. I envy transsexuals who know exactly what they want for their bodies because they have a male or female template to work off of. There is no nonbinary template so I just have to figure out what will make me most comfortable in my own skin as I go and hope I don't spend thousands of dollars I can't really afford on irreversible procedures that may not alleviate my dysphoria in the end.
> 
> A mental exercise often used with cis people to try to get them to understand transsexuals is to ask them "if you woke up in the opposite body tomorrow, would you be comfortable to be that way forever or would you want your right body back? if you woke up and everyone started referring to you as the other gender, using those pronouns, maybe even changing your name, would you feel comfortable with that or would you want them to refer to you the right way?". Because this goes beyond feeling a bit more masculine or feminine on any given day, or more masculine or feminine than your peers. This is about your level of comfort in your own skin and your comfort with the social interplay that happens when people see you as something other than what you are. For me in this hypothetical, waking up in a female or male body and being addressed with masculine or feminine pronouns for the rest of my life would feel equally wrong.
> 
> I hope none of this came across as aggressive as I really just want to describe what my experience is like and what I feel on a daily basis because you said you wanted to understand.


I see. I think you understand what you mean but not really because neutrality is something I don't really understand because when I think I about it everyone falls more or less into female or male. Maybe the trick is that I gendered language with no neutrality so it is very hard for me to think about the void of gender. Is not that I can, it's just very strange and unusual and I don't really understand.

I don't want to say it is dysphoria but sometimes I get this feeling that I'm okay being me but when I think about it I cannot runaway from being a woman because I'm not trans.


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## Entropic

@lolthevoidlol It is possible to acquire a fairly androgynously shaped body by rigorous workout even if you are female-bodied, originally. Breast reducing surgeries may still be necessary, though, but working out and losing body fat will also make them shrink by a huge margin though they shrink more and faster on tesosterone. I can't say how a low dosage will work though, as it may not be enough to "knock out" estrogen as the main hormone in the system. 

I do however know that having estrogen and testosterone in the body in about the same levels is possible and will have the effect you seek, though I think overall, due to the inherent shape of the female body, if you lose a lot of weight and become pretty much the equivalent of a flattie and then opt to build some muscle to compensate, it may work out for you anyway. That's assuming you have the original body build for it though, which I realize you may not have. But if you do, it may be a worthwhile and viable alternative which is a lot safer and less money blown into the sea. 

With that said, testosterone will have other perks like making you voice drop which may be something you may want more. I did pass with a slightly high voice before my voice dropped to my current range, as I just sounded like a very high-pitched guy, pretty much. Overall presentation like body language does a lot, as well.

There's this supposedly male-bodied trans person at my current workplace who could be non-binary, I don't know. Goes by a male name (given birth name, probably) and male pronouns on Facebook, but also has a female name there and presents in an ambiguous though overall, femme-leaning, way. Long hair but usually wears it in a ponytail, tends to wear fairly androgynously looking long-sleeved shirts and a pair of jeans. Body language and speech pattern is definitely feminine and I tend to think of him as a trans woman (I guess I'm damage in the other way lol...), though it seems most people in the class think of him as a guy? He hasn't made some kind of announcement or statement anyway, and seeing how he's using male pronouns on Facebook, I go with that unless I'm signaled otherwise.

The point is that if we are just judging pure anatomy, this guy definitely looks male-bodied. He has the typically more masculine forehead pattern, a fairly large nose, usually visible beard growth though he's always shaved (doesn't always properly shave under his neck and side burns, however) but at least to me, I could easily think of him and see him as a woman if he just signaled it due to his ambiguous presentation i.e. speech pattern, body language and dress style. He lacks very strongly pronounced feminine features but it is clear he doesn't need it to be read as a female.

Anyway, I'm bringing him up because while yes, I do think people try to categorize him into either male/female a bit more than maybe he himself intends (?), it's certainly possible. I've been observing how people may relate to him overall seeing his ambiguous presentation and how that would make people in the group that he and I are a part of feel, but overall he seems to be very accepted. I think he maybe makes the more typically "macho" guys a bit uncomfortable (there's this guy group that is your very stereotypical guy group that you see especially in high school, many of the people in my group are young and around college age) but he doesn't really socialize with them anyway so it's kind of moot, I guess. He tends to hang out with the "girl's group", to put it that way. In many ways this new group I'm a part of feels like your high school class, the way it's structured like that, heh (guy's being on the more (hyper)masculine end as one group though it's pretty flexible, the "soft" girls another group, then you got some more ambiguous group in the middle including more masculine girls and more feminine guys or how to put it; another interesting dimension to all of this is that it's separated by Ne and Si so the "soft" group is also dominated by Ne-Si types whereas the guy group is dominated by Se-Ni types, and this is regardless of gender, also). 

Now, if P, let's just call him that, would announce to be non-binary and prefer neutral pronouns, I don't think anyone would have that much of an issue with adapting to that, anyway (maybe I'm being too naive, idk, but based on my own experiences and observations, anyway). His bigger issue would probably not be to signal to have his identity respected by his coworkers at the job, but more when interacting with customers to our company. And as a last disclaimer, this is all in Sweden where social liberalism is the main discourse to endorse, though it doesn't exclude bigots here. They certainly exist but anyway, I haven't run into any problems yet (if I did, I would probably speak to the HR and see if I could transfer tbh, since if they are shitting on non-binary, then it's a matter of time knowing how accepted I'll be though I'm stealth atm and currently prefer it that way).


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## Pirate

Don't understand the concept of stealth. Or maybe that's the only concept I understand. Point is: why on gods green earth would I ever tell anyone who didn't need to know/wasn't going to find out anyways? It's just going to complicate things and likely draw a distinction in peoples minds that I don't really want there. 

I honestly think I'd rather deal with bigots than the opposite extreme. So long as I'm not in physical danger I know I'd rather deal with bigots than the "we're people of color so we can relate to each other and have to stick together" crowd" or the (for lack of a better term) "white guilt" crowd that go out of their way to treat me better than normal (as if that isn't insulting and counter productive)


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## Aya the Abysswalker

Pirate said:


> Don't understand the concept of stealth. Or maybe that's the only concept I understand. Point is: why on gods green earth would I ever tell anyone who didn't need to know/wasn't going to find out anyways? It's just going to complicate things and likely draw a distinction in peoples minds that I don't really want there.
> 
> I honestly think I'd rather deal with bigots than the opposite extreme. So long as I'm not in physical danger I know I'd rather deal with bigots than the "we're people of color so we can relate to each other and have to stick together" crowd" or the (for lack of a better term) "white guilt" crowd that go out of their way to treat me better than normal (as if that isn't insulting and counter productive)


Some people just don't want others to know. My boyfriend wants to live a normal life so he barely tells any one about it. Not out of fear, but out of the wish of being treated like a man.


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## Entropic

Pirate said:


> Don't understand the concept of stealth. Or maybe that's the only concept I understand. Point is: why on gods green earth would I ever tell anyone who didn't need to know/wasn't going to find out anyways? It's just going to complicate things and likely draw a distinction in peoples minds that I don't really want there.
> 
> I honestly think I'd rather deal with bigots than the opposite extreme. So long as I'm not in physical danger I know I'd rather deal with bigots than the "we're people of color so we can relate to each other and have to stick together" crowd" or the (for lack of a better term) "white guilt" crowd that go out of their way to treat me better than normal (as if that isn't insulting and counter productive)


I assume you were writing in response to what I wrote; imagine now that you're a part of a social group that's the girl's or boy's group, coming out as trans will exclude you due to change in perception of where you are supposed to be. I'm out to my bosses but not my coworkers. Currently trying to feel through what people I could be out to or not without it ruining people's perception of me and where I can be socially included. Some people don't care and the social dynamics is retained but some people do. Since I like being a part of the more masculine group (call me stupid but I've always wanted to be a part of that since I was a kid, I just always felt that's where I belonged though it's difficult to describe, I guess it's the same thing why a lot of transwomen become super girly) I don't want to come out yet, anyway. Maybe I will at a later time but not right now and I'll come out to the people I know I can trust.


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## Pirate

I think you've both misinterpreted me.

I was saying I wouldn't even consider telling anyone who didn't need to know. (So partners, doctors, and people who already knew me, nobody else.) Unless they don't care either way, which isn't very likely, they're going to react and none of the ways they'd react are going to make me feel great. 

I've dealt with being different and people making a big deal out of it. I can't very well hide my skin color so people stop treating me differently but this is something I can. I don't want to be a trans women (or whatever patronizing and/or hurtful label people want to use,) I'm settling because there aren't other options. I want to be a woman. It's going to be a hell of a lot harder if I'm constantly reminded (either by well meaning people or total jackwagons) that I wasn't born that way because they're treating me differently.


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## Playful Proxy

Pirate said:


> I think you've both misinterpreted me.
> 
> I was saying I wouldn't even consider telling anyone who didn't need to know. (So partners, doctors, and people who already knew me, nobody else.) Unless they don't care either way, which isn't very likely, they're going to react and none of the ways they'd react are going to make me feel great.
> 
> I've dealt with being different and people making a big deal out of it. I can't very well hide my skin color so people stop treating me differently but this is something I can. I don't want to be a trans women (or whatever patronizing and/or hurtful label people want to use,) I'm settling because there aren't other options. I want to be a woman. It's going to be a hell of a lot harder if I'm constantly reminded (either by well meaning people or total jackwagons) that I wasn't born that way because they're treating me differently.


Tbh, that's why most people go stealth. The thing you're overlooking is never telling anyone can also be a bit frustrating because there's those awkward moments your friends start talking about their periods and or if they ask if you want children, the whole, "I can't have kids" talk is super awkward and unfun if your goal is to skip around the REAL reason. What I do mostly is a little bit of both? Like, "m like mostly stealth to people who don't know me really well and people I spend lots of time with or talk to a lot, I end up telling. I'll probably not mention it as much further in transition, but while I can pass in public, I'm still going through stuff in transition, and sometimes you just need to get some of that shit off your chest to friends.


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## Pirate

I have someone to talk to. Also I have to see a councilor anyways, that type of thing is kinda their job. 

People tend to stfu pretty quick if it's made clear someone doesn't want to talk about something personal. It's not even like I couldn't participate in the conversation in general, adoption is a thing.

Also, just not participating if that's what they're talking about is an option. I do it all the time, about a lot of subjects. It's only awkward if I try to participate without knowing wtf I'm talking about or someone ignores my reluctance to talk about whatever it is and forces me to state outright that it's not something I'm comfortable talking about. Unless you share every other detail about your body, it's probably going to pass as simple modesty. 

I know presentation isn't as simple as that, but the bottom line is there is no need to skip around or make things awkward. Some variation of I'm not comfortable talking about it/ none of your buisness are perfectly reasonable things, as is being upset if they persist after you've made that clear.

(I'm not saying you shouldn't tell people if you want to, I'm saying the issues you brought up don't really impact me.)


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## Playful Proxy

*shrugs* I'm a pretty self-conscious about my appearance, I wasn't sure where you are in transition. I'm passing and such, but there's a lot of the socialization stuff I'm not yet caught up on and lots of things I'm not super familiar with that most girls my age already know and are proficient at (clothing choices, styling hair, makeup, etc (when I'm walking around campus, everyone's hair is in perfect order, not a hint of makeup out of place or if no makeup is being worn, no hint of acne or blemishes, it's insane)), so I feel like while I'm no longer drowning in the new expectations held on me, I'm just kinda awkwardly wading around in the water while everyone else is swimming with ease giving me odd looks. So I guess part of me feels like it takes some of the pressure and judgement off of me to go, "Hey, you guys have been at this your whole lives, I've had a total of 4 years and counting so far. Cut me some slack and if you're really nice, help teach me?" Maybe that sounds silly or stupid, but I'm legitimately still settling into being pegged as female in society and all that it entails. 

I don't feel like my transition will be fully 'complete' until I can finally decide I want to go swimming one day and not have to worry about how I'm going to hide, 'it' (and decide not to go because fuck the complications of all that). Or all the self-imposed rules I have going like, "Wear your hair down, up and too much of your jawline shows making you not pass as well, your adam's apple is also less hidden when it's up" and things like that.


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## Aya the Abysswalker

Playful Proxy said:


> *shrugs* I'm a pretty self-conscious about my appearance, I wasn't sure where you are in transition. I'm passing and such, but there's a lot of the socialization stuff I'm not yet caught up on and lots of things I'm not super familiar with that most girls my age already know and are proficient at (clothing choices, styling hair, makeup, etc (when I'm walking around campus, everyone's hair is in perfect order, not a hint of makeup out of place or if no makeup is being worn, no hint of acne or blemishes, it's insane)), so I feel like while I'm no longer drowning in the new expectations held on me, I'm just kinda awkwardly wading around in the water while everyone else is swimming with ease giving me odd looks. So I guess part of me feels like it takes some of the pressure and judgement off of me to go, "Hey, you guys have been at this your whole lives, I've had a total of 4 years and counting so far. Cut me some slack and if you're really nice, help teach me?" Maybe that sounds silly or stupid, but I'm legitimately still settling into being pegged as female in society and all that it entails.
> 
> I don't feel like my transition will be fully 'complete' until I can finally decide I want to go swimming one day and not have to worry about how I'm going to hide, 'it' (and decide not to go because fuck the complications of all that). Or all the self-imposed rules I have going like, "Wear your hair down, up and too much of your jawline shows making you not pass as well, your adam's apple is also less hidden when it's up" and things like that.


It is so scary. You just described how I feel.


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## Fumetsu

Playful Proxy said:


> *shrugs* I'm a pretty self-conscious about my appearance, I wasn't sure where you are in transition. I'm passing and such, but there's a lot of the socialization stuff I'm not yet caught up on and lots of things I'm not super familiar with that most girls my age already know and are proficient at (clothing choices, styling hair, makeup, etc (when I'm walking around campus, everyone's hair is in perfect order, not a hint of makeup out of place or if no makeup is being worn, no hint of acne or blemishes, it's insane)), so I feel like while I'm no longer drowning in the new expectations held on me, I'm just kinda awkwardly wading around in the water while everyone else is swimming with ease giving me odd looks. So I guess part of me feels like it takes some of the pressure and judgement off of me to go, "Hey, you guys have been at this your whole lives, I've had a total of 4 years and counting so far. Cut me some slack and if you're really nice, help teach me?" Maybe that sounds silly or stupid, but I'm legitimately still settling into being pegged as female in society and all that it entails.
> 
> I don't feel like my transition will be fully 'complete' until I can finally decide I want to go swimming one day and not have to worry about how I'm going to hide, 'it' (and decide not to go because fuck the complications of all that). Or all the self-imposed rules I have going like, "Wear your hair down, up and too much of your jawline shows making you not pass as well, your adam's apple is also less hidden when it's up" and things like that.


heh. It's funny. We feel the same way when a very tall and lean transsexual walks around in clothes we wish we could get away with.
" Hey, you've got 20 plus years of muscle building-testosterone."

We've all got our insecurities. In that way we really are all the same.


----------



## Playful Proxy

Fumetsu said:


> heh. It's funny. We feel the same way when a very tall and lean transsexual walks around in clothes we wish we could get away with.
> " Hey, you've got 20 plus years of muscle building-testosterone."
> 
> We've all got our insecurities. In that way we really are all the same.


In our defense, I get tall and lean, but there's the downsides: massive feet that you can't find shoes for in most stores (I'm an 11US), and testosterone usually isn't quite so uhhh...nice on the features it bestows on others. You only get tall and big feet if you're lucky, let's not forget wide shoulders, narrow hips, defined jawline, brow bossing, huge ribcage, and don't forget about facial hair. Some trans women do get lucky genetically with this stuff, but there's plenty of cis women who do as well The trans women who get unlucky, however....I'm a bit apologetic for. They'll never be able to walk around in public without having judgement imparted on them (mostly because we live in a world of judgemental assholes).


----------



## Fumetsu

Playful Proxy said:


> In our defense, I get tall and lean, but there's the downsides: massive feet that you can't find shoes for in most stores (I'm an 11US), and testosterone usually isn't quite so uhhh...nice on the features it bestows on others. You only get tall and big feet if you're lucky, let's not forget wide shoulders, narrow hips, defined jawline, brow bossing, huge ribcage, and don't forget about facial hair. Some trans women do get lucky genetically with this stuff, but there's plenty of cis women who do as well The trans women who get unlucky, however....I'm a bit apologetic for. They'll never be able to walk around in public without having judgement imparted on them (mostly because we live in a world of judgemental assholes).


I know how that is. I have huge feet and shoulders. I'll never look " cute" in the things many other women wear.
I've actually had people ask if I was transgender when I attempted to do so.

I guess you could say that Judgement does not discriminate. ( yes, irony intended)


----------



## Playful Proxy

Fumetsu said:


> I know how that is. I have huge feet and shoulders. I'll never look " cute" in the things many other women wear.
> I've actually had people ask if I was transgender when I attempted to do so.
> 
> I guess you could say that Judgement does not discriminate. ( yes, irony intended)


I understand. I have a friend and she wears the same size shoes as me. I know it bothers her a lot but tbh, it makes me feel a bit better that I'm not the only one, haha.


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## Aya the Abysswalker

Playful Proxy said:


> I understand. I have a friend and she wears the same size shoes as me. I know it bothers her a lot but tbh, it makes me feel a bit better that I'm not the only one, haha.


Ah, don't worry. I reckon that a lot of girls have issues with clothes. I feel like the sizes get smaller each year and it does make me feel bad. I'm not that heavy either, I just happen to have most of my weight in my legs and hip area. My feet aren't easy either. Big and slim (at a 37/38/39 European size depending on the model) I have mostly resorted to All Stars because they can keep my feet in place and don't fall off. Boots often all off and it comes very uncomfortable to walk in them. Jackets and coats is another issue altogether. Just yesterday I lost all the buttons on my favourite coat (a Victorian noble like coat that looks like something out of Dishonored or Bloodborne) because the poor thing is my size but it's also too small around my shoulders.

I recently confessed to my boyfriend, in an attempted to make him feel better with himself, that I've been confused with a male or a transsexual more than a few times. I don't know what drives this since me face is rather round.


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## Pirate

FUCK. Forgot I painted my nails, so didn't think to take off the polish before seeing my family. It did not go unnoticed. I kinda panicked and claimed my baby sister did it while I was babysitting her. It's alternately funny and horrifying.


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## Aya the Abysswalker

Pirate said:


> FUCK. Forgot I painted my nails, so didn't think to take off the polish before seeing my family. It did not go unnoticed. I kinda panicked and claimed my baby sister did it while I was babysitting her. It's alternately funny and horrifying.


Even if sounds silly, try to have notes near you so you don't forget such things. I know, it sounds silly, but it might be helpful.


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## Entropic

I'm getting my top surgery in two days. Excited over that but less excited over the fact that I need return to the clinic for another investigation in order to have hip liposuction like wtf. It gives a "feminine" shape and that's all that should be needed to suck it dry, you'd think, but no.


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## Pirate

Wanna trade? You can have my shoulders and ribcage too.


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## Aya the Abysswalker

Entropic said:


> I'm getting my top surgery in two days. Excited over that but less excited over the fact that I need return to the clinic for another investigation in order to have hip liposuction like wtf. It gives a "feminine" shape and that's all that should be needed to suck it dry, you'd think, but no.


Hang in there, man.


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## lolthevoidlol

I did not know hip liposuction was even a thing :O


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## AesSidhe

OMG I love Courtney Act so much for this. Watch this beautiful music video of hers: Kaleidoscope.

For everyone who doesn't know her, Courtney act is a drag queen, transgender activist and singer, who identifies as a pansexual genderfluid person, and she's just a beautiful soul, with an amazing humor. Please go and subscribe to her on youtube and facebook <3 <3 <3


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## Entropic

At the hospital and the drainage caused so much bloodloss I'm probably staying for another day. Still can't walk unassisted. Low blood pressure causes extreme nausea and dizziness. Not fun. Despite all that I mostly feel bad for the cats being alone an additional day.


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## drmiller100

Entropic said:


> Despite all that I mostly feel bad for the cats being alone an additional day.


stating the obvious, be good, and you will heal that much faster.... Smiles.......


----------



## Ace Face

Entropic said:


> At the hospital and the drainage caused so much bloodloss I'm probably staying for another day. Still can't walk unassisted. Low blood pressure causes extreme nausea and dizziness. Not fun. Despite all that I mostly feel bad for the cats being alone an additional day.


I can't imagine how that must feel. My thoughts are focused on your quick recovery!


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## Aya the Abysswalker

@Entropic hold on in there, goddamnit. You'll be just fine.


In other pointless news, I said "you go, girl" to my boyfriend and only after I realized what I had said. "Fuck me. I'm doomed. I shat on my own shoes, fucking hell.", I thought, but he brushed it off and laughed. Thank god, he got more understanding after 5 years of getting to know him.


----------



## Entropic

Thanks for the condolences. I'm getting discharged later today  gonna be nice to get home to the cats and my own bed. Unfortunately I can't go to afterwork this weekend though, because I need to keep the drainage tubes a couple of days longer. (I guess I reasonably could show but it's a restaurant so I don't think others are gonna appreciate it. I really wanted to go too, dammit.)


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## Aya the Abysswalker

Entropic said:


> Thanks for the condolences. I'm getting discharged later today  gonna be nice to get home to the cats and my own bed. Unfortunately I can't go to afterwork this weekend though, because I need to keep the drainage tubes a couple of days longer. (I guess I reasonably could show but it's a restaurant so I don't think others are gonna appreciate it. I really wanted to go too, dammit.)


You will go back soon. Just a bit longer now. 


[PATTING INTENSIFIES]


----------



## DualGnosis

So can someone give me the procedure one goes through in order to be transgender? I'm not here to bash, I'm genuinely curious. Particularly the thought process and actions one takes. What do you do exactly to be transgender?


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## Pirate

DualGnosis said:


> So can someone give me the procedure one goes through in order to be transgender? I'm not here to bash, I'm genuinely curious. Particularly the thought process and actions one takes. What do you do exactly to be transgender?


There is no answer to that question because it isn't the right question. Not something you become, something you are. believe me, if I could choose otherwise I wouldn't hesitate to do so. 

If you're asking about what's involved in transitioning or being transsexual (and I don't know if you are or not,) that's a different question.


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## DualGnosis

Pirate said:


> There is no answer to that question because it isn't the right question. Not something you become, something you are. believe me, if I could choose otherwise I wouldn't hesitate to do so.
> 
> If you're asking about what's involved in transitioning or being transsexual (and I don't know if you are or not,) that's a different question.


So if I understand you correctly, a transgender person is someone who is born a certain gender but is a different biological sex rather than someone who willingly changes their gender?


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## Pirate

That's my experience of it. It's also the experience of everyone whose story I know.


----------



## DualGnosis

Pirate said:


> That's my experience of it. It's also the experience of everyone whose story I know.



Thank you! I appreciate your answers.


----------



## drmiller100

DualGnosis said:


> So if I understand you correctly, a transgender person is someone who is born a certain gender but is a different biological sex rather than someone who willingly changes their gender?


that made no sense to me. I'm not saying it is wrong, just didn't make sense at all.

again, forgive my ignorance if I'm wrong. Transgender is a person who is born not the biological sex their mind/soul/heart believes and knows they are.

example: a person si born biologically a female, but their mind/soul/heart KNOWS they are male.


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## Entropic

DualGnosis said:


> So can someone give me the procedure one goes through in order to be transgender? I'm not here to bash, I'm genuinely curious. Particularly the thought process and actions one takes. What do you do exactly to be transgender?


Depends on how you define it. Here you define it as an action, that trans people make conscious actions that mark their gender identity in ways that other people do not. The problem is that transgender is a nebulous word, I don't like it much nowadays, and most people equal it with transsexualism. 

Generally speaking, a trans person is someone whose identity does not fit the identity they were assigned at birth, and the need to express this identity is somehow deemed transgressive in the society in which they reside. From this vantage point, transgender is a definition which is based on your social role in relation to the rest of society. It describes a status of being just like having a cold does. For other people, transgender is an identity in itself. They aren't just a specific kind of gender, but they are specifically transgender. It's closer to race or other forms of more static notions of identity, as opposed to something transient. Some people for example think they stop being trans once they are fully transitioned and have had all their surgeries and legal documents in place. 

On a much more personal note, getting rid of the last drain today, so fucking good. Otherwise healing seems to go well. I can finally sleep somewhat normally without pain or stiffness.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Entropic said:


> On a much more personal note, getting rid of the last drain today, so fucking good. Otherwise healing seems to go well. I can finally sleep somewhat normally without pain or stiffness.


Told ya man. Told ya.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

so, people who only know me from forums and chats tend to assume I'm male, and everyone assumes hetero with everyone, which lead to this hilarious (to me) conversation today-

him: so you got that second date lined up yet?
me: yup!
him: hell yeah bro! she's a lucky lady
me: he's* a lucky guy
him: oh 
him: you're a chick! 
him: now I feel dumb
me: nope
him: oh
him: OH
him: ohhhhhhh
him: well he's a lucky man!
me: fact

these things amuse me because after all that he still has no clue what my gender or orientation is XD​


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## drmiller100

lolthevoidlol said:


> these things amuse me because after all that he still has no clue what my gender or orientation is XD​


why the secret?


----------



## lolthevoidlol

drmiller100 said:


> why the secret?


it just hadn't come up in conversation, and it's not something I feel like explaining to people who are just casual acquaintances


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## Aya the Abysswalker

lolthevoidlol said:


> it just hadn't come up in conversation, and it's not something I feel like explaining to people who are just casual acquaintances


People assume what's normal to them. I would be thankful that they have such nice thoughts about me and correct them.


----------



## Entropic

lolthevoidlol said:


> so, people who only know me from forums and chats tend to assume I'm male, and everyone assumes hetero with everyone, which lead to this hilarious (to me) conversation today-
> 
> him: so you got that second date lined up yet?
> me: yup!
> him: hell yeah bro! she's a lucky lady
> me: he's* a lucky guy
> him: oh
> him: you're a chick!
> him: now I feel dumb
> me: nope
> him: oh
> him: OH
> him: ohhhhhhh
> him: well he's a lucky man!
> me: fact
> 
> these things amuse me because after all that he still has no clue what my gender or orientation is XD​


Yup, at work I guess I'm one of the bros?, you could say. It leads to odd conversation subjects sometimes since they assume I intrinsically have always shared all of their experiences and can share all their experiences, lol. Tbh, I'd rather just be open with being trans so these situations don't occur and I have to come up with awkward ways to dodge the issue, but I don't think it's safe to come out as trans right now. Maybe to the right people at a later time, maybe. 

Though, and this is interesting, is that I read that people's perception of your gender is extremely colored by the gender you presented as when they first met you, which is that they knew you as a woman at some point but then you transitioned, they have a harder time adapting to this new status, but if they met you as a man and you are a transman, it is much more difficult for them to envision you as a woman.

This goes for both transwomen and transmen but I think transwomen struggle more with the fact that femaleness is defined by a lack of male attributes, so even _one_ male attribute will tip it in favor of a male perception, almost without exception. Obviously, the penis is the most definite marker of this also. I mean, this is why you see people say if you have a penis, you're a guy, but no one ever says if you have a vagina, you're a girl. Funny, huh? So while it is more difficult for transmen to also acquire a male status due to a lack of a penis, other male attributes will tip the perception in favor of maleness anyway.


----------



## Pirate

I'm beginning to hate my family. 

I've been in a good mood for a week, maybe 2, because I've been presenting myself as a woman whenever I think I won't get caught (which mostly means online.) It's not a dramatic change because I'm still the same person, and It's not like I go telling everyone or something stupid like that, but I do correct people when they make a statement that assumes I'm a man. (ie refering to me as a he/guy/dude/man.)

That good mood ended to today though. I was at my moms place because my grandparents were there visiting from out of town. I don't know why I expected anything different, but it was less than an hour before the conversation turned to gender politics and how trans people are delusional sinners who are all going against gods will. Made my excuses and left. I'm as angry as I am sad. I care less and less that I'm going to lose them because all they've done in the last couple months is prove to me that they aren't worth having around as they rapidly destroy what affection I still have for them. 

That affection has warped into a twisted desire to shove all the pain they've caused me back in their faces so they can feel even a fraction of what they've been doing to me with their fucking ignorance. I want to _hurt_ them. It's mean, it's unhelpful, it won't make me feel better, and it's morally wrong, but I want it anyways. I don't know how else to cope, just avoid or endure and either way let what should be a good relationship become a festering pit of sadness and malicious anger. I don't want to live like that. I don't know what to do.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Pirate said:


> I'm beginning to hate my family.
> 
> I've been in a good mood for a week, maybe 2, because I've been presenting myself as a woman whenever I think I won't get caught (which mostly means online.) It's not a dramatic change because I'm still the same person, and It's not like I go telling everyone or something stupid like that, but I do correct people when they make a statement that assumes I'm a man. (ie refering to me as a he/guy/dude/man.)
> 
> That good mood ended to today though. I was at my moms place because my grandparents were there visiting from out of town. I don't know why I expected anything different, but it was less than an hour before the conversation turned to gender politics and how trans people are delusional sinners who are all going against gods will. Made my excuses and left. I'm as angry as I am sad. I care less and less that I'm going to lose them because all they've done in the last couple months is prove to me that they aren't worth having around as they rapidly destroy what affection I still have for them.
> 
> That affection has warped into a twisted desire to shove all the pain they've caused me back in their faces so they can feel even a fraction of what they've been doing to me with their fucking ignorance. I want to _hurt_ them. It's mean, it's unhelpful, it won't make me feel better, and it's morally wrong, but I want it anyways. I don't know how else to cope, just avoid or endure and either way let what should be a good relationship become a festering pit of sadness and malicious anger. I don't want to live like that. I don't know what to do.


I'm going to saying something will sound hurtful and mean but you only have one family. If they don't accept you in the end it's another story, but wanting to hurt them will solve none of your feelings and will only turn people against you in real life. There is no justification to wanting to hurt your family just because they're ignorant. Transsexuality is rare and most people will not even come in contact with it, expecting them to think it's okay especially if they're religious is just insanity.
Listen, I know it's not easy. My father dislikes bisexual people because he doesn't understand it, when you're outside the experience it's hard to understand. I never wanted to hurt my father for this, I only have this one father. People do change when these things knock at their door. My boyfriend is trans and when he told his family he was scared, his mother is a scared pushy bitch (I have no other words to describe her behaviour, sorry) and don't get me started on his step-father, but they accepted him quite well. Because when you speak from the outside is all very nice and dandy but people do change when it happens to either own sons and daughters.
Be gentle and step by step explain things to them, you might even do it while getting along with their game. Because you lose them you will feel it, it's going to hurt, you will miss them.


----------



## Jennywocky

Playful Proxy said:


> Does anyone ever get impostor syndrome? Like, I'll get approached on campus about joining the 'women in STEM' groups or whatever and I can't help but absolutely refuse. Yeah, there's not many women on my campus and part of me would want it just for the sake of socialization, but my other side is, I grew up being socialized to go INTO STEM since I was originally socialized male. I didn't face the same disadvantages a cis girl would have faced given I was seen as a guy at one point so it kinda goes against the very point of the program. It's like even after transition, I can be acknowledged for me, but if a guy finds out, he's no longer attracted, I feel guilty about certain groups, I feel like trans woman or not, there's a lot of spaces I don't fit into in either male or female.


I have found it takes time to adjust. I can have the same issues and it weakened my confidence early in the process. The reality is that I do have different experiences than both men and women, at least internally -- I didn't grow up necessarily under the same social pressures as women who were always perceived by society as women, yet at the same time I never really embraced what society was trying to project on me as male. to summarize, it was like "The worst of both worlds" and almost like I was androgynous versus gendered for much of my life mainly because I couldn't accept what was offered and couldn't have what wasn't offered. Now that I can have it, I still feel naive and awkward sometimes, and still fear rejection on some level.

The guy thing is difficult. I've known some success stories, but typically they either involve a guy outside the norm or the transwoman had to really lay it out for him so that he couldn't hedge in the middle somewhere. (And we're even talking post-surgical outcomes.) And there's anxiety involved because some people don't understand and/or reject you when they find out -- so attending with groups of cisgen women still leaves you wondering what happens if someone doesn't know and then finds out your background. Will the other shoe drop? I try to just put those things out of my mind because all these serve to do is isolate me, but it still can be worrisome; I find I've just been trained to expect someone to flip shit, even if it turns out no one does in the end. My female friends have been more supportive of me than I feel about myself sometimes.

Still, the background itself can be separating. Few people know what it is like to bear up under this kind of life experience; it can create a natural gulf that might seem hard to bridge. Usually if I mesh with someone, it's because they had an experience in their life that produced a similar effect on them... a situation where they felt trapped and had to make a decision or embrace something that can carry a social stigma. We can bond over such things and the rest doesn't matter.

Note: It didn't help that I had imposter syndrome almost all my life in other areas. I was always hard on myself -- not smart enough, not creative enough, not kind enough, not... whatever enough. It's just one of those things where I've had to ignore the "flashing lights" because I realize they aren't providing accurate feedback.



lolthevoidlol said:


> I feel that way about joining any woman-centric group due to identifying as agender even though I'm female bodied. I'd feel the same about joining male-centric groups for the same reason; I just don't get invited to them. I never attend any of those kind of things due to feeling like I don't belong.


Yeah, that's one reason this kind of thing can be so isolating. The opportunities society provides aren't ones where you feel comfortable.

I remember my BIL asking me to attend PromiseKeepers with him, when that group was a "thing." On one level, the thought made me want to throw up. But even when I could detach from it, my experience (even pretransition) was simply that I would feel like a woman disguised as a man and sent into a huge group of Christian men who were kind of alien to me. I just didn't understand why they were there, what they were getting out of it, the kind of bonding that was occurring, etc. At best I'd feel detached from the whole thing, or maybe a bemused curiosity; at worst, I'd feel in danger because I was the "one" in "one of these things was not like the others."

There was always that sense of alienation and like I was a covert spy hanging out somewhere I wasn't supposed to be and that it didn't make sense to me.


----------



## FlaviaGemina

Playful Proxy said:


> Transsexual is a transgender person who transitions medically and socially, transgender is someone who transitions at least socially, transtrender is someone who doesn't transition because 'I don't need to' and demands elaborate pronouns or switches them on a regular basis. If it's a "you've obviously never heard of it" gender, just ignore them.
> 
> Tumblr's on the oppression-olympics right now so people want to say how oppressed they are, not really trans? That's cool, just make up this really flashy (ommmmnigender, wooooah) sounding gender and call yourself trans anyway? Actual diagnosis on mental illness? Just diagnose yourself, that's the same thing, right? In my experience, agender and genderqueer happens to be the default titles people claim when they're not really trans but want to be able to say they are. Mostly AFAAB claiming agender "I don't feel like I have a gender" most people don't 'feel' male or female on a daily basis, that doesn't mean you lack a gender, just trans people have dysphoria. "But I don't fit with female gender roles", well duh, gender roles are restrictive as hell, not fitting them doesn't make you a different gender.
> 
> This is why I'm voting we just start a separation between people actively trying to medically transition and blend into society vs those who are just there to color their bangs on a pixie cut and stand out. I don't how people want to present themselves in public, just don't bastardize the name of a marginalized group to do it. I'm not saying nonbinary people don't exist, just that most of the people I run into who identity as nonbinary arn't really trans, have no dysphoria or issue with their identity, but just see it as a new fashion trend that grants them a shiny new title to call themselves. "I'm a pansexual panromantic omnigender vegan you simple 'normal' cis woman. My pronouns are om/nom/omnomberrypie"


Playful Proxy, your discussion with @_Entropic_ made me think about lots of things.
I totally understand that you want a narrow definition of 'transsexual' and I agree with you that there is a proliferation of fancy identities that seem over-complicated. 
I've got an example of a "gender-neutral" AFAB that will probably make you cringe: there was this girl in the local newspaper who claims to be agender (and pansexual) and demands that the university install gender-neutral toilets for her precious ass. There was a picture of her and she looks like a typical hipster/emo girl with pink hair and girl make-up. While she didn't have long hair etc, her picture screamed "girl". Now, a person can't do much about their natural facial features, but feminine make-up doesn't put itself on and it requires a lot of effort to actually look as feminine as her. No female bodied person naturally looks as 'feminine' (i.e. pretty) as that girl did. She "occasionally" wears men's clothes. So far so good, maybe she inwardly identifies as gender-neutral or whatever. The point is that she was terribly upset that other people don't perceive her that way. She said when she goes to a gay bar, people say "What is a hetero girl doing here?". Blahblah, society oppresses her because it doesn't recognize that she is gender-neutral.
Duh! Bitch, how would people know that she is gender-neutral just from looking at her if she presents as female? Personally, I wear men's clothes everyday fucking day and have done so for 15+ years. Yet I don't demand that people recognize my special identity and I don't care whether people call me "she" or "he", as long as they don't call me a "lady". 

On the other hand, people do seem to think that not conforming to gender roles makes you a different gender. 
E.g. my daft INFP mother had short hair a bit like a butch lesbian back in the 80s before it was cool and she wore clothes that looked like men's clothes. They weren't men's clothes, just boxy, frumpy women's clothes, but they looked kinda like men's clothes. The women in the village called her a derogatory German word which means mannish woman or butch (there is no direct equivalent in English). In every other respect apart from her clothes, she followed female gender roles: stayed at home to look after her children, she cries rather than getting angry etc. For these people something as trivial as wearing atypical clothes does make you different gender. For them, "gender" isn't about your physical sex or even your behaviour, it's about superficial things like what clothes you wear.

As for my own manly man-clothes, I've got the following reactions from random people in the street:
- drunk scally: "LOL LOL LOL SHOUT SHOUT, look at that lad with the gay hat!" The gay hat is not a man-hat; it just covers up my long hair and voila, the fella thought I was a lad despite my big fat woman ass.
- fugly as hell middle-aged woman whispered to her fugly husband and husband goes "Strange, but true." down my ear. 
- slutty teenage girls: "Ew, confuuuusing."
- Other slutty teenage girls: "He's cute!" (gay hat covering my hair again)
- girl children: "Mummy, why is there a man in the girls' toilet?" or "Hey, you, this is the ladies' toilet." (no gay hat)
- fugly middle aged woman in the gym changing room: was startled, then saw my hair and decided I'm probably not out to rape her.

So, in summary, people either mistake me for a (gay or cute) man or they complain that I'm weird. They don't go "Oh, here's a female-girl-woman who just happens to wear men's clothes, let's move on, there's nothing to see here."

Similarly, I do not know any women who wear men's clothes, except trans guys, butch lesbians and some of the AFAB gender-neutral people that you mentioned. I literally do not know any woman apart from myself in real life who would ever even consider wearing men's clothes.
Now, I feel no need to call myself trans or anything for exactly the reasons that you have stated. I don't experience any physical dysphoria and I don't want any medical intervention. I agree that transexuality is way more than just wanting to wear unusual clothes and there are physical/ biological causes for it. However, society doesn't agree. If you want to wear the clothes of the opposite gender, people expect you to be either gay or trans. So I can understand that many people want to create those identities. Mainstream, hetero-normative society demands that people who look different from the norm give some justification as to why they look that way. 

Which leads me to the following philosophical question: How would a transgender person in a tribal society where everyone goes nearly naked go about presenting themselves? 


In other news: Ivan Coyote is so cute! ♥♥♥♥♥♥ ... and because of my little man-crush on them+my results on the BBC 'brain sex' test + my manly clothes, I demand to be recognized as a "60%-male-demisexual-nearly-but-not-quite-panromantic-ankle-boots-man-shirt-trousers-with-permanent-crease-wearing-squirrel-hugging-big-ass-kitty".


----------



## Strayfire

FlaviaGemina said:


> For these people something as trivial as wearing atypical clothes does make you different gender. For them, "gender" isn't about your physical sex or even your behaviour, it's about superficial things like what clothes you wear.


It's simple. Clothes are what our particular Western society use to differentiate gender. In a sense you are ascribing your identity with clothing, whether intentionally or not. Nobody is going to know if you fit the traditional gender roles or not. Performing gender roles opposite to your own doesn't make you the other gender in our modern Western society. These days there are house husbands who take care of children/the house while their spouse is out at work. Doesn't make him female. Nor would crying make him female. Nor would having sensitive feelings. These are societial valuations of actions that should be considered gender-neutral. We simply assign an arbitary gendering to these actions. Similar case with clothes.



FlaviaGemina said:


> As for my own manly man-clothes, I've got the following reactions from random people in the street


Obviously the bastions of sophisticated public opinon. 



FlaviaGemina said:


> Similarly, I do not know any women who wear men's clothes, except trans guys, butch lesbians and some of the AFAB gender-neutral people that you mentioned. I literally do not know any woman apart from myself in real life who would ever even consider wearing men's clothes.


I know of many cis-hetero women who wear men's clothes (or women's clothes that look like men's clothes) because it's more comfy. It's pretty well accepted in Australia.

What isn't accepted is men who dress in women's clothes. That's a far greater social transgression. 

Depends on the society really. Look to Japan/South Korea. Their boy bands would almost be considered feminine. 



FlaviaGemina said:


> Now, I feel no need to call myself trans or anything for exactly the reasons that you have stated. I don't experience any physical dysphoria and I don't want any medical intervention. I agree that transexuality is way more than just wanting to wear unusual clothes and there are physical/ biological causes for it. However, society doesn't agree. If you want to wear the clothes of the opposite gender, people expect you to be either gay or trans. So I can understand that many people want to create those identities. Mainstream, hetero-normative society demands that people who look different from the norm give some justification as to why they look that way.
> 
> Which leads me to the following philosophical question: How would a transgender person in a tribal society where everyone goes nearly naked go about presenting themselves?


The answer would be "it depends". There is so much variation in "tribal socieites" that it would be hard to give you a general answer. 

Some societies have inbuilt auxilary gender categories such as the Navajo American Indians who had 5 genders. It would be misleading to translate that as transgender as they performed roles and rituals that neither males nor females did and had distinguished dress. 

America Samoans traditionally had a class of people who were physically men but yet performed female gender roles and considered their own category of fa'afafine, basically being considered women (with the exception of their physical appearance, hence the slight liguistic differentiation). So of course these societies knew, they just are more permissive of what we would consider a violation of gender norms. 

Societies often having some way of determining the gender of an indivdual that isn't necessarily coded through dress. Australian Aboriginal adult males along the east coast had certain teeth removed to indicate that they were indeed fully fledged males. Other societies had similar ritualistic procedures to mark indivduals with gender and status. 

Of course since colonisation Aboriginals don't normally ceremonally remove teeth and now fa'afafine can and do get gender reassignment surgery, but these are more recent developments. *shrugs*


----------



## septic tank

I hope all the transexuals in the world have a lovely day today.


----------



## FlaviaGemina

Strayfire said:


> Obviously the bastions of sophisticated public opinon.


But that's the thing. What if a majority of the population don't have a sophisticated opinion? I don't care about those people's opinion, but that doesn't mean that their opinion doesn't exist just because they are unsophisticated people.



> I know of many cis-hetero women who wear men's clothes (or *women's clothes that look like men's clothes*) because it's more comfy. It's pretty well accepted in Australia.


I knew many younger women who wore those kinds of clothes in the 90s/00s, but nowadays I don't see much of it. Might be a cultural difference because I live in a different country now. Also, that whole phenomenon mainly extends to casual clothes, not formal ones. And even with casual clothes nowadays there are men's and women's versions. E.g. look at Superdry: the women's version of their clothes are tighter and more figure-hugging. They're not just a smaller size of the men's version.




> What isn't accepted is men who dress in women's clothes. That's a far greater social transgression.


I totally agree that that's perceived as a far greater transgression. I wouldn't argue with that at all, I was just talking about my personal experience.

Thanks for the info about fa'afafine and the five genders of the Navajos. I'll look it up.


----------



## Entropic

@Strayfire some visual kei bands wouldn't just be "almost" considered feminine seeing how some dress up entirely in female clothing. Bands such as Versailles take this to an extreme. I reckon it's more along the lines of actual crossdressing.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Entropic said:


> @_Strayfire_ some visual kei bands wouldn't just be "almost" considered feminine seeing how some dress up entirely in female clothing. Bands such as Versailles take this to an extreme. I reckon it's more along the lines of actual crossdressing.


It's more crossdressing and a stage persona than anything else. I used to be into it a lot when I was younger.


----------



## Entropic

Aya the Abysswalker said:


> It's more crossdressing and a stage persona than anything else. I used to be into it a lot when I was younger.


Actual crossdressing involves personas though. I specifically meant actual as in "not just feminine".


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Entropic said:


> Actual crossdressing involves personas though. I specifically meant actual as in "not just feminine".


I know, that's what I meant as well. They're not being feminine, aside of a few cases. They're doing it to get money and fame.


----------



## Riven

Hi, I've been referred to this thread after I posted this on the Advice subforum. I don't know where to start, and I don't know if I'm trans or not, but someone in this thread said I might be.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Good news everybody!

My boyfriend will soon be able to change is name and start treatment! So freaking close!


----------



## Riven

Aya the Lady of Cinder said:


> Good news everybody!
> 
> My boyfriend will soon be able to change is name and start treatment! So freaking close!


Unless this is sarcasm, then I've never know about this.


----------



## ShadowsRunner

Is it normal to at some point in your life fantasize about being the opposite gender?


Now I have no desire to, really...but there was one period...

But I think it was just because I wanted to be with a woman instead? very closely. 

And that's how I feel attracted, like in this way where it's like wOOWooaaahh, SX-mergingxXx/insanity8=======D

But it's like I love women so much I want to be one?


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

SJWDefener said:


> Unless this is sarcasm, then I've never know about this.


It's not sarcasm, I've on this thread for a long time because of him.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Meteoric Shadows said:


> Is it normal to at some point in your life fantasize about being the opposite gender?


I think so. It's a phase of self discovery, I would say.


----------



## ShadowsRunner

Aya the Lady of Cinder said:


> I think so. It's a phase of self discovery, I would say.


Ah yes, now I don't know what i was thinking. It was weird.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Meteoric Shadows said:


> Ah yes, now I don't know what i was thinking. It was weird.


A lot of kids go through that phase. It's nothing you should be worried about.


----------



## Sara Torailles

Honestly, I've come to the point where getting banned from this forum would probably say something good about my character. It's like every other day there is some sort of horridly transphobic post here.

I hate this place and 99% of the people in it.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Sara Torailles said:


> Honestly, I've come to the point where getting banned from this forum would probably say something good about my character. It's like every other day there is some sort of horridly transphobic post here.
> 
> I hate this place and 99% of the people in it.


No need to hate them. We've simply been hijacked by a couple users who don't understand what they're saying. Whatever transsexualiy or transgenderism are mental illness is pretty much meaningless, that would actually justify treatment even more. They're shooting themselves in the foot and they don't even realize.


----------



## vimalahot

it is a treatable illness. that's not offensive, it's basic medical fact. and should be considering it causes distress, it's what mental illness is all about. People who make that comment are uneducated, and use circular logic. it IS since invariably they see a mental health professional, since most are born that way, and need counselling before they transition. 

and it erm...kind of works since transitioning makes them feel happier...


----------



## vimalahot

i have a question. 

i follow a trans woman online, she's very smart, cute, and funny, and is it weird to ask her to be friends on Facebook, and like...well date her?


----------



## vimalahot

Aya the Lady of Cinder said:


> No need to hate them. We've simply been hijacked by a couple users who don't understand what they're saying. Whatever transsexualiy or transgenderism are mental illness is pretty much meaningless, that would actually justify treatment even more. They're shooting themselves in the foot and they don't even realize.


People are stupid. it's seems inherent...lol. surprising in a way the level of ignorance..


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

vimalahot said:


> People are stupid. it's seems inherent...lol. surprising in a way the level of ignorance..


Yeah, that's why it all very funny to me.


----------



## Sara Torailles

vimalahot said:


> i have a question.
> 
> i follow a trans woman online, she's very smart, cute, and funny, and is it weird to ask her to be friends on Facebook, and like...well date her?


She probably wouldn't date you unless you have some sort of chemistry and there are real life prospects. Trans women, especially attractive and passing ones like her, get a lot of admirers. Which is cool, if you're attractive to her and she's into it, but you generally gotta build some sort of chemistry.


----------



## Sara Torailles

Aya the Lady of Cinder said:


> No need to hate them. We've simply been hijacked by a couple users who don't understand what they're saying. Whatever transsexualiy or transgenderism are mental illness is pretty much meaningless, that would actually justify treatment even more. They're shooting themselves in the foot and they don't even realize.


That's supposed to make me feel better about all of this shit? Honestly, is it? I don't fucking see it.

The fact that you have to justify treatment because we're "mentally ill"? Not because we shouldn't have been forced into this body, this role, in the first fucking place?! Not because I shouldn't have to fear people harassing me, beating the shit out of me, or violating me out of their own fucking convenience? Because I shouldn't be called, "******", "tranny", "shemale", or "it" just for existing?! Because in my FUCKING STATE today, some piss-poor excuse of a governor is legislating where I pee because he thinks that _their_ "privacy" is more important than _my_ life? Because I have to hear people who call themselves GODDAMN social workers in support of this stupid, bigoted, hateful bill?! Because my humanity shouldn't be on fucking par with their GODDAMN CONVENIENCE?!

Look at this thread. Look at this goddamn thread.

http://personalitycafe.com/sex-rela...-you-think-about-women-who-have-big-butt.html

All validating responses. Zero responses saying anything even slightly derogatory.

What kind of responses do you think there would be if someone said "What do you think of women with dicks?"

I'm serious. How many people do you think would respond "There are no women with dicks", "A 'woman' with a dick is really a deluded man", or something worse?


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Sara Torailles said:


> That's supposed to make me feel better about all of this shit? Honestly, is it? I don't fucking see it.


Even if dysphoria is classified as a mental illness, so be it, it makes treatment more justifiable unlike what people who claim that it is just crazy people talking nonsense think. I think what really matters for people who suffer from dysphoria is to be treated.



> The fact that you have to justify treatment because we're "mentally ill"?


No, but it makes it more justifiable. Listen, not mentally ill people are batshit crazy. There is Asperger's, depression, OCD, among others. I don't like that is classified as such, but if what it takes for people to be treated so be it. There is a high possibility that it will be like dyslexia and as soon as it's better understood it will be classified as it's own thing. It's not good, but people are shooting themselves in the foot by calling it that. What I want you to understand is that people are being stupid by calling it a mental illness because that will lead it into being better understood and having better treatment as it happens with other illness and disabilities. I'm not calling dysphoria an illness or disability nor I see it as positive thing, but it could lead into making things better for everyone. My reasoning might be strange, but if I had to have dyslexia classified as a mental illness to have a cure or even the possibility of a cure for it, so be it. I don't care, as long as I can feel normal and good with myself. I believe that is the same line of thought many others with similar things that badly understood have.



> What kind of responses do you think there would be if someone said "What do you think of women with dicks?"
> 
> I'm serious. How many people do you think would respond "There are no women with dicks", "A 'woman' with a dick is really a deluded man", or something worse?


They're ignorants who do not deserve your time or energy. That's what I honestly think of them. Fighting will not nothing for your well being or mental stability. It hurts, I know it hurts, but being angry at them will not make them more or less informed or stable about your situation or feelings. Anger might even justify (or seem like justification to them) of their own thoughts and feelings. Being the bigger person, the more thoughtful and informative person means you won even if they laugh at you. Whatever you're real or not, only decide, not them. Words are only hurtful as long as you allow them. I do not say this just because it is to say, I have my own set of hardships you probably could not understand and yet I understand that by lowering myself to their level and to their anger I'll achieve nothing but anger and stress. I know that words mean nothing as long as I don't give them meaning. I know seeing yourself as a real woman isn't easy, but is you who counts. I understand the fear of getting beaten or killed for simply being you, but I think it is more important to keep on living than letting dumb idiots online take you over. I know it's never easy, but this is all I can offer you.


----------



## SuedeSwede

can someone around the age of 18 who's also trans just add me on skype or something i really just need to talk to someone i'm feeling awful


----------



## vimalahot

i'm not trans. but then the standard process in treating is a formal diagnosis by a doc.

many young people who are trans experience psychological issues. some transition without it,but the vast majority experience dysphoria. so the entire process is to change appearance, behaviour, and attitude and lifestyle to suit the true psychological gender. 

to say "it's a mental illness!!" to try and discredit it is odd reasoning, since...well...erm, it is. just in the same way depression or borderline disorder are. they affect functioning and emotional wellbeing. again, ignorance, but then we're all ignorant in some area. it's not really mockery, since it's reality. it's like conservatives calling Caitlyn Jenner a mentally-ill confused gay man, lol... well no, there are decades of research, which any good doc can corroborate. and the human brain is complex, so no reason a person can be born male like Caitlyn but feel/think like a woman. i guess it's just me, i don't like people mocking/putting down those over things they cannot help.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

vimalahot said:


> i'm not trans. but then the standard process in treating is a formal diagnosis by a doc.
> 
> many young people who are trans experience psychological issues. some transition without it,but the vast majority experience dysphoria. so the entire process is to change appearance, behaviour, and attitude and lifestyle to suit the true psychological gender.
> 
> to say "it's a mental illness!!" to try and discredit it is odd reasoning, since...well...erm, it is. just in the same way depression or borderline disorder are. they affect functioning and emotional wellbeing. again, ignorance, but then we're all ignorant in some area. it's not really mockery, since it's reality. it's like conservatives calling Caitlyn Jenner a mentally-ill confused gay man, lol... well no, there are decades of research, which any good doc can corroborate. and the human brain is complex, so no reason a person can be born male like Caitlyn but feel/think like a woman. i guess it's just me, i don't like people mocking/putting down those over things they cannot help.


Well, even if it is not some are related or ate symptoms of it, such as depression. I reckon depression is the more common one. Whatever it is, it should be treated with care. Putting someone down for calling it a mental illness is like putting someone down for having a Smart, stupid and ignorant and you shouldn't care for you own well being


----------



## Sara Torailles

The internet sucks. People suck. They all need to die a slow, painful death.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Sara Torailles said:


> The internet sucks. People suck. They all need to die a slow, painful death.


Get off the internet for a while. Such toxicity will not do you any good. Take a break.


----------



## WamphyriThrall

Sara Torailles said:


> The internet sucks. People suck. They all need to die a slow, painful death.


Such Feelings you've got there, dear :/ 

This is why I occasionally make books, music, or nature my circle of friends


----------



## lolthevoidlol

"So if the law requires that a person is male or female, should that sex be assigned by anatomy, hormones, cells or chromosomes, and what should be done if they clash? “My feeling is that since there is not one biological parameter that takes over every other parameter, at the end of the day, gender identity seems to be the most reasonable parameter,” "

Sex redefined : Nature News & Comment


----------



## Entropic

No one here is probably qualified, but this is still nice:

https://kau.mynetworkglobal.com/en/what:job/jobID:98170/where:4


----------



## ShadowsRunner

Aya the Lady of Cinder said:


> A lot of kids go through that phase. It's nothing you should be worried about.


Do I want penis, or does vagina want my penis? 

i dont know lol


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Entropic said:


> No one here is probably qualified, but this is still nice:
> 
> https://kau.mynetworkglobal.com/en/what:job/jobID:98170/where:4


I never understood very well the usefulness of Gender Studies. If you're in Sociology, it makes sense, but having a stand alone course for that always bugged me. Maybe it's just me.


----------



## Sweetish

Sara Torailles said:


> Honestly, I've come to the point where getting banned from this forum would probably say something good about my character. It's like every other day there is some sort of horridly transphobic post here.
> 
> I hate this place and 99% of the people in it.


For every p.o.s. trawling for trouble on the internet there are far more people not on the internet, not being jerks, but actively being respectful. I don't get the hate poured on me, so I don't know how it feels. Even so, I would agree that probably any place is better than this forum in terms of being acknowledged with compassion and treated civilly. Go out, find the good people, encourage them to be part of a positive movement where anonymity doesn't allow people to be hateful and immature. They flee to the internet because as more time passes and the world becomes aware, the less that behavior is tolerated everywhere else.

Their sh!t stains can rot here; You don't have to. Their ploy may be easy to fall for, here, making you believe that most everyone is terrible.

Everyone's at a different stage in their learning- we're not all terrible. The internet is a magnet for douchebags, is all.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

My boyfriend took his first shot a few days ago. Rebirth is about to happen. I don't know how to deal with this ><


----------



## Strayfire

A joyous day for gaming! People can wear whatever they want in the latest update of the Sims. 

Heels aren't exclusive to women anymore  

Women can now wear suits and have short hair! 

The Sims 4 discards gender rules for all clothing, customizations | Ars Technica

I don't see any mention of dresses for men, though I suppose it's something.


----------



## lolthevoidlol

Strayfire said:


> A joyous day for gaming! People can wear whatever they want in the latest update of the Sims.
> 
> Heels aren't exclusive to women anymore
> 
> Women can now wear suits and have short hair!
> 
> The Sims 4 discards gender rules for all clothing, customizations | Ars Technica
> 
> I don't see any mention of dresses for men, though I suppose it's something.


all clothing and all hairstyles and all voice pitch options are available no matter which gender you pick now


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Strayfire said:


> A joyous day for gaming! People can wear whatever they want in the latest update of the Sims.
> 
> Heels aren't exclusive to women anymore
> 
> Women can now wear suits and have short hair!
> 
> The Sims 4 discards gender rules for all clothing, customizations | Ars Technica
> 
> I don't see any mention of dresses for men, though I suppose it's something.


You can mod that. Sims is all about mods.


----------



## Strayfire

Aya the Lady of Cinder said:


> You can mod that. Sims is all about mods.


Mods are one thing, but official support is really awesome on the part of Maxis 

It's a statement: hey you're valid, so you're included in the *official* game ^.^


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Strayfire said:


> Mods are one thing, but official support is really awesome on the part of Maxis
> 
> It's a statement: hey you're valid, so you're included in the *official* game ^.^


I don't really get that since I always used my imagination for that but I guess it is fine, however Sims without mods is very empty. There are things Sims will never have like periods and you can mod that into the game. The game isn't going to change because you can get a sex change, Sims will still treat other Sims the same and that's why The Sims, to me, has always been a game about imagination. If you write in the description that a Sims is trans then she or he is no matter the scripting because you can give them more feminine or masculine appearances and clothes. When you get to Sims 4 you can even control the breast size.

Listen, I have nothing against this change, but it will affect nothing and it's not something a fan couldn't have done and better than EA. I don't feel less or more validated because my sexuality is a video game, or more validated because there are female characters in video games because that is not about validating me, my gender or sexuality, it's about selling an expensive product (let's remember that the game still costs around 40 euros here) and expensive expansion packs and stuff packs. That's why I prefer that a fan, with all the love in care that I know the Sims modding community has, does it for free. 

But this is my humble opinion, of course, you're free to feel validated because EA wants to sell you a barely complete game.


----------



## Shahada

Strayfire said:


> A joyous day for gaming! People can wear whatever they want in the latest update of the Sims.
> 
> Heels aren't exclusive to women anymore
> 
> Women can now wear suits and have short hair!
> 
> The Sims 4 discards gender rules for all clothing, customizations | Ars Technica
> 
> I don't see any mention of dresses for men, though I suppose it's something.


You can wear whatever you want in Dark Souls as well, and it is actually a good game.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Shahada said:


> You can wear whatever you want in Dark Souls as well, and it is actually a good game.


And it Bloodborne men can use two sets of dresses.



















And aside from two Church related clothes, the game goes down the Dark Souls route: totally gender neutral.

This is a set originally wore by a female on a male:










And a set originally wore by a male on a female.









And I'll not go into Dark Souls because I would be showing armour all day.


----------



## Shahada

From armor fashion ftw.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Shahada said:


> From armor fashion ftw.


Can we talk about Lord's Blade Ciaran's armour? Can we? I want that thing so bad. And Ornstein. Ornstein's armour kills me, it killed me even harder when I tried to draw it.


----------



## Pirate

So update I guess. 

I've briefly spoken to 2 different therapists, both of whom echoed the "if you have to ask then the answer is probably yes" sentiment. So, to avoid being slapped with a preexsisting condition, i have to get insurance before I do anything else. I know the state insurance isn't allowed to pull that, but I don't know if private insurance is allowed to. Fortunately, where I live, insurance is required to cover medication and surgery, if it gets that far. they are not required to cover hair removal or therapy, which means they aren't going to because this is an insurace company we're talking about. 

Things have generally gotten a lot better. My hair is an affro, so I can grow it out without having to answer questions about it. I can't do anything with it without tipping people off, but for the moment it's fine. I haven't gotten caught with painted nails (or anything else) again and my brother has moved out, so I have the place to myself for the moment and a bit more freedom to try things. I can get away with lots of little things in public without having to worry about getting the crap beat out of me or anything. Longer hair, less hair, longer nails, deoderant, different underwear, painted toe nails, a different walk/posture (which is easy to hide simply by tying a sweatshirt around my waist to conceal the hip movements,) walking around the house without my feet all the way in my shoes so I have to stand as if I was wearing high heels to avoid crushing the heels and ruining them, sleeping in a big shirt long enough to also be a short skirt All of which I've liked. 

I think the most telling thing though, is I joined a clan in a game I play and introduced myself as a woman. Since I did that about 2 months ago, I've basically lived for the weekends when I get to play with them. I only actually like 3 of the 30 members, the rest I don't really care about either way, but it's... wonderful. I really don't have words to describe what it feels like to be treated like a woman. It's definitely different and sometimes aggravating (when well meaning people talk down to my because they've assumed i don't know what I'm doing, or when real douchebags from outside the clan find out I'm a chick) but even when it's bad it's still better than I've been for a long time. I didn't know I could feel like that. I've also noticed I'm way less engaged in escapist fantasies (in the form of giant RPGs) since i joined, which used to be the vast majority of my free time. I get to literally live a life that's better than the one I currently have, so, at least on the weekends, I have nothing to escape from. I imagine that will wear off if/when I get used to being treated like that. 


...And then the rest of the week comes. I'm less unhappy than I was before, but I also have something to compare it to. And every transition story I've found has indicated that the worst is yet to come, because at some point i have to transition and at least for a while (but possibly forever without extra surgeries I can't afford that I don't think insurance will cover) I'll just look like a man in a dress instead of looking like a woman and will be treated less than kindly for it. Not looking forward to that. 

Have still only told the friend. I can't bring myself to say anything to my family. For the moment I'm using the fact that I haven't seen a therapist for formal sessions so I can't be sure as an excuse not to tell them, but I know that the therapists job is to guide me to my answers and not to tell me what they are (because only I can really know.) I also know that if I'm pretty sure (and I get more sure with each new thing i try) then a therapist appointment is unlikely to convince me otherwise. It's intellectual dishonesty, and I know it, but I really don't want to tell them. 

So that's my life for the last 2 or 3 months and my deeply personal worries about the future. In case anyone cares and/or it helps someone and/or someone has insight to offer.


----------



## Pirate

Washington State To Teach Transgenderism To Kindergartners | The Daily Caller

Ignore the sensationalist headline, this is the real victory. Some people, my mother included, interpret this as "teaching kids to be transgender." I don't know where they get that from, because what it's really teaching kids what gender is, how it impacts their lives, and that it's OK to be transgender. If only I was so lucky when I was in school, or that my parents had also been taught such things. In the next 2 decades or so I bet Washington state sees trangender peoples attempted suicide rate drop from the appalingly high numbers of today (it's over 40% atm.)


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Pirate said:


> Washington State To Teach Transgenderism To Kindergartners | The Daily Caller
> 
> Ignore the sensationalist headline, this is the real victory. Some people, my mother included, interpret this as "teaching kids to be transgender." I don't know where they get that from, because what it's really teaching kids what gender is, how it impacts their lives, and that it's OK to be transgender. If only I was so lucky when I was in school, or that my parents had also been taught such things. In the next 2 decades or so I bet Washington state sees trangender peoples attempted suicide rate drop from the appalingly high numbers of today (it's over 40% atm.)


A really awesome thing to happen, indeed. 

Update: my boyfriend complains he has no effects, but he started to get pimples on his face, I reckon that is an affect :v


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## Entropic

@Pirate I'm happy that you're making progress! The initial transition can suck but you can take hormones first for a long time and make it very very slowly by dressing more andro and then move over to feminine clothing as your body begins to look more femininized. Idk what your face is like, but remember that there are many women out there that are born cis but could be mistaken for transwomen. Also there are many ways to wear your hair and clothes to hide the masculine shapes. Good luck!


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## Pirate

Entropic said:


> @*Pirate* I'm happy that you're making progress! The initial transition can suck but you can take hormones first for a long time and make it very very slowly by dressing more andro and then move over to feminine clothing as your body begins to look more femininized. Idk what your face is like, but remember that there are many women out there that are born cis but could be mistaken for transwomen. Also there are many ways to wear your hair and clothes to hide the masculine shapes. Good luck!


If I had a chance I'd just snap my fingers to switch and be done with it. If I had my way I'd do as close to that as is actually possible, not only because it's what i want anyways but because I'm way more likely to be targeted if I'm not "obviously" a woman (despite the absurdity of that idea that's still how people think about it) and the orlando thing has scared the shit out of me.


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## Aya the Abysswalker

Pirate said:


> If I had a chance I'd just snap my fingers to switch and be done with it. If I had my way I'd do as close to that as is actually possible, not only because it's what i want anyways but because I'm way more likely to be targeted if I'm not "obviously" a woman (despite the absurdity of that idea that's still how people think about it) and the orlando thing has scared the shit out of me.


Don't let Orlando scare you. Don't live in fear. Fear is the mind killer, the little death. Continue to live on as you desire because you can only be you.


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## Pirate

I got to try on dresses. It was a complicated emotion. I was happy, and conflicted, and scared, and kinda turned on. For a good few minutes, all I could see in the mirror was the dress. Then I looked up and saw what everyone else would see, a hairy dude in a dress. At that moment those emotions shattered and were immediately replaced by shock at the suddenness of my fantasy ending and longing/regret. 

Oh a happier note, my friend asked me about names. I actually had been thinking about it, but hadn't put anything into practice or really liked any of the names (I'd used them like in games and stuff.) He said it should mean something and that if I wanted/needed/was ready we could go though several. After a few minutes (based on my current self inflicted self confidence issues and perhaps an idealistic notion that I will get over them and be OK) I asked him to call me Kiki (as in Kikis delivery service) at least for the moment. And he said Ok Kiki, which felt amazing. Part if it was gratitude, and part of it was slightly hot, but it means something. I felt it in a way I didn't with the others I toyed with or even with my actual name. I hope that feeling stays. 

(PS, do things always stay slightly hot or does that go away as I get used to things?)


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## Aya the Abysswalker

Pirate said:


> (PS, do things always stay slightly hot or does that go away as I get used to things?)


It depends on what you wear. Sometimes no even women can't help it and we're used to this body.


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## Pirate

At the risk of coming off like an attention whore (tbh it's probably as much about organizing my thoughts and maybe helping someone hear a story that isn't all tragic or ret-coned by hindsight):

I told 4 of my other friends today. I only really have 1 friend outside that circle and he lives in Georgia, so that's basically everybody on the friends front. Even though I know they'll be supportive, and the one friend who has responded so far has been, I still have an irrational fear of being rejected. Feels like waiting on the tracks for an oncoming train.

EDIT: The others all responded well too. Like I said, I expected them to, but irrational fear is irrational. One of them followed literal textbook guidelines, thanking me for telling them, saying I can come to them if I need anything and asking about pronouns/names.


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## Sweetish

Aya the Lady of Cinder said:


> Update: my boyfriend complains he has no effects, but he started to get pimples on his face, I reckon that is an affect :v


I've read that getting a proper balance of Vitamins B5 and Biotin (B7) can reduce acne. I know that when I take too much Biotin but not enough B5 (a.k.a. "pantothenic acid") pimples start showing up. Hormonal shifts could certainly impact other systems in the body. Maybe a good B-complex would help?


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## Aya the Abysswalker

Sweetish said:


> I've read that getting a proper balance of Vitamins B5 and Biotin (B7) can reduce acne. I know that when I take too much Biotin but not enough B5 (a.k.a. "pantothenic acid") pimples start showing up. Hormonal shifts could certainly impact other systems in the body. Maybe a good B-complex would help?


Probably because it's his first shot too but he's starting to notice something. It's just slow and he hates waiting.


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## Mayaa

Playful Proxy said:


> Well except for the whole me trying to present female and failing miserably because estrogen is slow as anything and seemingly ineffective on me (well, it has done some but not as much as I"d like and facial bone structure is fucking horrid). It can soften my skin all day long, the bone looks bad. Wheeee, I am so screwed >.< Oh, and my voice is not where I want it but it at least isn't some super deep male voice...but I doubt it'd get fem'd on the phone yet, either.
> 
> Also, my friends made the mistake of getting me drunk last night. That essentially turned into me crying, whining about things not moving fast enough, being obnoxiously clingy and hugging him, and trying to do integration on the inside of a pizza box with a Sharpie.


poor girl, I got the same bone problem. How long have you been on E? It takes some time but if the fat distribution does it's job, it can reeeeaaaly change faces! it may give you some hope there. Have you thought about highening the E dosage?
What can really help with bones is some proper make up, I got no clue about it but you may have a look here, she is goooood! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCf0CRezZYOUcvqrdMmozowQ/videos


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## Mayaa

Pirate said:


> At the risk of coming off like an attention whore (tbh it's probably as much about organizing my thoughts and maybe helping someone hear a story that isn't all tragic or ret-coned by hindsight):
> 
> I told 4 of my other friends today. I only really have 1 friend outside that circle and he lives in Georgia, so that's basically everybody on the friends front. Even though I know they'll be supportive, and the one friend who has responded so far has been, I still have an irrational fear of being rejected. Feels like waiting on the tracks for an oncoming train.
> 
> EDIT: The others all responded well too. Like I said, I expected them to, but irrational fear is irrational. One of them followed literal textbook guidelines, thanking me for telling them, saying I can come to them if I need anything and asking about pronouns/names.


glad it went good for you. I basically lost all of my friends through it


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## WamphyriThrall

Pirate said:


> Why would you wish this on anybody?
> 
> I dearly hope they're just a guy who thinks it's fun to dress as a woman. Nobody deserves to go though anything even remotely resembling what I have over the last 18 months. If it turns out they are then be happy that they can be true to themselves, but hoping that they are makes it look (to me) like you haven't thought at all about the experience they have to have had for that to be true.


No, you're right. That was foolish of me to say.

Though using "guy dress as woman" is the same thing many folk say about trans women, so maybe rethink your analogy?


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## Pirate

Just because it's (incorrectly) used as an accusation in an attempt to invalidate the identity of trans people doesn't mean it doesn't happen. That is a perfectly reasonable description of many crossdressers.


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## Pirate

So, I bought some cloths, mostly underwear because I can get away with it in public, but I did start wearing skirts and stuff around the house when I'm alone. Which I love. 

It's kinda brought a problem to the surface though. The more I do, the more I feel like what I have done isn't enough. Obviously I can't know what "enough" is unless I get it, but I'm worried that (by vitrue of not being biologically female) nothing I do will never be enough. It obviously gets worse when I have to "switch back," but whenever my mood suffers that feeling pops up. Anyone have experience with that? Am I just insecure and confidence will help that go away? Is it just gonna be something I struggle with on bad days forever?

I want to stress, I've had more good days than ever, days where I spend most/all of the day being unable to keep at least a small smile off my face , but the more infrequent bad days are easily the worst they've ever been. Like all the bad days I didn't have last month teamed up and cramed all their badness into 3 or 4 of those days.


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## Jennywocky

Pirate said:


> So, I bought some cloths, mostly underwear because I can get away with it in public, but I did start wearing skirts and stuff around the house when I'm alone. Which I love.
> 
> It's kinda brought a problem to the surface though. The more I do, the more I feel like what I have done isn't enough. Obviously I can't know what "enough" is unless I get it, but I'm worried that (by vitrue of not being biologically female) nothing I do will never be enough. It obviously gets worse when I have to "switch back," but whenever my mood suffers that feeling pops up. Anyone have experience with that? Am I just insecure and confidence will help that go away? Is it just gonna be something I struggle with on bad days forever?


I'm not totally clear on what specifically you're experiencing or what "that feeling" is -- basically you're just trying to get into a place where wearing clothes is enough to help offset the bad feelings, but you're finding that it doesn't always work? Or what exactly?

If some is happy/relieved just by dressing up and it releases something for them so that they can feel fine for awhile living their regular life, then that seems to be a stable point for them and no kind of permanent change is required.

I have to say, the last number of months before I made the jump completely was horrible. It was like I'd feel happy being myself in my spare time, but to have to shove what amounted to a mask back on to go back to the other world was terrible... I cried a lot when I had to do that. I'm glad those days are long over. If you're having an experience where it's devastating to "go back" and you're miserable all the time in the "old world," then that's one of the signs that maybe moving on would be beneficial.


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## Pirate

@*Jennywocky*
The cloths makes every day I can wear them better (on good days I can brace myself and still have fun when I'm out as a guy,) but on bad days the cloths aren't enough anymore and I still feel like I'm not me. The feeling like I'm not able to be myself is there most of the time and always there whenever I have to be out as a guy, but on better days I can ignore it in much the same way I can ignore a headache. Like, I'm aware of it and it's painful but as long as I don't do something to make it worse then I can just not think about it and still have a good time. My worry is that, because the days where I can't just ignore it have gotten more common recently, that I'll just never be rid of it. 

I don't really know if I articulated that well. Was that clearer?


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## Aya the Abysswalker

Question time, guys and gals. How much does T affect the female genetalia? Thanks.


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## kittenmogu

Aya the Lady of Cinder said:


> Question time, guys and gals. How much does T affect the female genetalia? Thanks.


I don't have firsthand knowledge but I was reading this just yesterday:



> Genitals: Testosterone affects the clitoris, which may become more sensitive and somewhat larger (average size between 1 and 3 cm). The vagina may become dryer and more fragile, so if you have vaginal sex, consider adding extra lubricant. Testosterone does not protect you from sexually transmitted infections, Hep C, or HIV. As always, consider using a latex barrier such as a glove, a dental dam, or a condom.


From here. If any FtM people would like to clarify, that would be great.


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## MisterPerfect

Socrates said:


> This thread inspired by @_Franktalking_ – word to your mother.
> 
> I've wanted to make mention of this for a while here but was never sure how to go about it. So the basic rundown goes something like this:
> 
> – As far back as I can remember, it felt "wrong" being a male.
> – I always resented the idea that _I_ should have to have the same interests as other males.
> – As such, I spent a fair amount of time crossdressing, which, of course, lead to getting caught.
> – The feelings only get stronger with time.
> 
> In 2004, I was caught crossdressing. This, obviously, did not end too well. I was lectured repeatedly on the issue and told to stop. I didn't stop. I started talking to mom about it somewhat, and her repeated musing on the subject amounted to nothing more than "_you don't want to be a girl_." As if she knew what _I_ wanted. You can't just ignore desires you were born with.
> 
> Alas, I tried. I tried for many years. In 2008, I had such a strong desire to transition that I was actually considering how to go about it. I knew that my family would never let me live it down, and had various vain issues: I have broad shoulders, bigger hands, what I'd call a big nose (but everyone else is reluctant to), and (stupidly) worried about height (I'm only 5'10). :mellow:
> 
> The issue came back in 2010, as I learned from my philosophy professor that her brother is an aspiring MtF trans, and that there were multiple trans students on campus. For what it's worth, the issue never really _went away_, I just _ignored it_ for sake of family.
> 
> In November, I came out to my parents first, and then my friends. My parents more or less said that when / if I transition, our relationships are over. :sad:
> 
> On the other end of the scale, my friends were broadly accepting of the proposition: my guy friends threatened to beat up discriminators, and my girl friends offered to 'help' in various ways (hair, make-up, clothes, etc). :tongue:
> 
> I know that a good bit of my depression comes from ignoring the issue. Every therapist I've had ended up suggesting transitioning would be good for my mental health and self-image. I don't doubt it at all. :bored:
> 
> However, I am entirely unsure what to do now. Anyone been in a similar situation or known someone that dealt with a similar situation? Where should I go with this? What option(s) sound most reasonable, in this case?


Well,I hate the notion of gender all together as its not really productive. I also wish things were like when they were in kindergarden where every member of the other sex was activly trying to get in your pants(I mean this both ways) and you can say "Hey lets hang out without someone saying internally 'Yeah I getting sex tonight'. Id rather people would treat me as a human being but thanks to my hieght, size, and gender I will always be treated one way if I like it or not. I delt with everything with a superioty complex, and gradiose fantasy. I can be whoever I want in my mind.


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## Aya the Abysswalker

kittenmogu said:


> I don't have firsthand knowledge but I was reading this just yesterday:
> 
> 
> 
> From here. If any FtM people would like to clarify, that would be great.


Well it is some help. My boyfriend is FTM and is currently taking hormones. Today he was showering and he noticed that his sexual organs where different than mine. The touch was different and he wondered if it was because of the hormones, I said it is because I had been reading about it but he wondered about other effects it would have on him. 

I'll give him the link and await for more answers. Regardless thank you.


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## Aya the Abysswalker

Is it okay to talk about sex in therapy? Did any of you do/does that?


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## lolthevoidlol

Aya the Lady of Cinder said:


> Is it okay to talk about sex in therapy? Did any of you do/does that?


it should be ok to talk about sex in therapy and many people do, just not all therapists are good with that. there are specific "sex therapists" as well who specialize in sex related issues that you could get a referral to if your regular therapist isn't up to snuff


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## Aya the Abysswalker

@lolthevoidlol that's pretty much what I told my boyfriend. If it helps I can speak a bit about the situation.


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## Maybe

I can't stand people who give people in the LGBT community a hard time.
If someone were to come up to me even if they were my own kids I would want to talk to them the pros and cons of such a transformation as there is a lot to think about, and then if they still want to go ahead with it I would support them in their endeavor.

Hope this helps.


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## Korra

I'm rather conflicted to post this or not...

During my time away from PerC, somehow I found myself reading into the experiences of Trans people. I came across certain terms, like "gender euphoria." I've always known about Trans stuff to a degree, but I've largely been uneducated about it. For the longest time, I believed one had to be absolutely miserable/disatisfied with whatever gender assigned at birth in order to be Trans. Since I never really exactly experienced this, I never gave serious thought about this subject matter. However, a few months back, reading certain stories and experiences from certain people, I dunno, it felt like things were clicking in my mind. I am MAAB, but I have, for the longest time, had this affinity for opposite gender, and I don't really mean in a romantic/attraction sense. No, I have been fond of the idea of being the opposite gender. In RPG games especially, 9/10 times I'll create a female character; if I choose a male character, I cannot feel immersed in the story/dialogue. When it comes to female characters in cartoons, shows, and movies, I tend to relate most to them, assuming they're written with depth and substance over the male characters. I've never really questioned such reasons before, but once I did, my mind ran like a locomotive trying to figure out why I was letting this Trans stuff get to me when I never did the usual crossdressing or other offbeat things that I often heard about from other Trans people; what I've learned is that, surprise! such experiences differ after all. Some heavily repress this or simply try to be ignorant of such thoughts, like I did. 

I remember someone asking me, if there was a button I could press and magically be the opposite gender, would I? My answer is yes... 
I have never really felt 'right' while living this life as a guy. Always felt as if something was off, but could never put my finger on it, so I just kinda dealt with it. I've looked into what it would mean to start HRT and all that jazz. It unfortunately scares me, all the stuff about hormones and how you'll have to take them indefinitely for the rest of your life and possible side effects... Haven't said anything to anyone close about this because as I said earlier, I am conflicted. Some days I'll go, "Yep, I'm totally trans closeted" and other days, "Wtf are you thinking?!" 

Given how much mental anguish it gives me must mean something major is up regardless. Yay...?


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## Riven

Korra said:


> I'm rather conflicted to post this or not...
> 
> During my time away from PerC, somehow I found myself reading into the experiences of Trans people. I came across certain terms, like "gender euphoria." I've always known about Trans stuff to a degree, but I've largely been uneducated about it. For the longest time, I believed one had to be absolutely miserable/disatisfied with whatever gender assigned at birth in order to be Trans. Since I never really exactly experienced this, I never gave serious thought about this subject matter. However, a few months back, reading certain stories and experiences from certain people, I dunno, it felt like things were clicking in my mind. I am MAAB, but I have, for the longest time, had this affinity for opposite gender, and I don't really mean in a romantic/attraction sense. No, I have been fond of the idea of being the opposite gender. In RPG games especially, 9/10 times I'll create a female character; if I choose a male character, I cannot feel immersed in the story/dialogue. When it comes to female characters in cartoons, shows, and movies, I tend to relate most to them, assuming they're written with depth and substance over the male characters. I've never really questioned such reasons before, but once I did, my mind ran like a locomotive trying to figure out why I was letting this Trans stuff get to me when I never did the usual crossdressing or other offbeat things that I often heard about from other Trans people; what I've learned is that, surprise! such experiences differ after all. Some heavily repress this or simply try to be ignorant of such thoughts, like I did.
> 
> I remember someone asking me, if there was a button I could press and magically be the opposite gender, would I? My answer is yes...
> I have never really felt 'right' while living this life as a guy. Always felt as if something was off, but could never put my finger on it, so I just kinda dealt with it. I've looked into what it would mean to start HRT and all that jazz. It unfortunately scares me, all the stuff about hormones and how you'll have to take them indefinitely for the rest of your life and possible side effects... Haven't said anything to anyone close about this because as I said earlier, I am conflicted. Some days I'll go, "Yep, I'm totally trans closeted" and other days, "Wtf are you thinking?!"
> 
> Given how much mental anguish it gives me must mean something major is up regardless. Yay...?


I don't know if I'm G, B, T or none of these things right now. I'll still have to ask around myself.


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## kittenmogu

@Korra, have you considered nonbinary identities? I feel as though the reason those exist is because of experiences similar to what you describe here. That there's something for you besides just cis or trans, and nothing in between.


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## Korra

kittenmogu said:


> @Korra, have you considered nonbinary identities? I feel as though the reason those exist is because of experiences similar to what you describe here. That there's something for you besides just cis or trans, and nothing in between.


Whew, I won't lie, it is something that has crossed my mind, but I'm simply caught in a fog with that too. I have come to a point where I start to question what exactly being male or female means, for me that is. I go through loops where I come to no concrete conclusions. 
What it possibly comes down to... I suppose I just don't feel 'free' under my current state. It doesn't feel natural to express myself how I want to... it's difficult to explain. 

Arghhh, I know this reply doesn't really clarify much to your question, but I do thank you for the input regardless! So fuzzy on all this.


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## Aya the Abysswalker

Hello everyone, Aya again with questions because yeah.

So my boyfriend has become unsure about having bottom surgery and has been seeking solutions and possibilities for him. His biggest fear is that he might lose sexual pleasure and that he might be unable to have sex with me. He has come across a peecock but doesn't know if that is good enough or if there are better things for his issue. Plus, it's expensive and only lasts for year.

Do you guys know of anything that might help?

For those who don't know what a peecock is here's an example Peecock Products - 4.75 Inch Triple Features Gen3S Pee-Cock He originally wanted to get something like this but is unsure because of price.

Before I forget, link is NFSW.


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## WamphyriThrall

Hmph, I've noticed there are a *lot* of trans men in/from Oregon. Why is this? Due to their more liberal/accepting culture, more health clinics, or simply coincidence? It's sort of become a "San Francisco" but for transmasculine folk, in my mind.


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## Entropic

Korra said:


> I'm rather conflicted to post this or not...
> 
> During my time away from PerC, somehow I found myself reading into the experiences of Trans people. I came across certain terms, like "gender euphoria." I've always known about Trans stuff to a degree, but I've largely been uneducated about it. For the longest time, I believed one had to be absolutely miserable/disatisfied with whatever gender assigned at birth in order to be Trans. Since I never really exactly experienced this, I never gave serious thought about this subject matter. However, a few months back, reading certain stories and experiences from certain people, I dunno, it felt like things were clicking in my mind. I am MAAB, but I have, for the longest time, had this affinity for opposite gender, and I don't really mean in a romantic/attraction sense. No, I have been fond of the idea of being the opposite gender. In RPG games especially, 9/10 times I'll create a female character; if I choose a male character, I cannot feel immersed in the story/dialogue. When it comes to female characters in cartoons, shows, and movies, I tend to relate most to them, assuming they're written with depth and substance over the male characters. I've never really questioned such reasons before, but once I did, my mind ran like a locomotive trying to figure out why I was letting this Trans stuff get to me when I never did the usual crossdressing or other offbeat things that I often heard about from other Trans people; what I've learned is that, surprise! such experiences differ after all. Some heavily repress this or simply try to be ignorant of such thoughts, like I did.
> 
> I remember someone asking me, if there was a button I could press and magically be the opposite gender, would I? My answer is yes...
> I have never really felt 'right' while living this life as a guy. Always felt as if something was off, but could never put my finger on it, so I just kinda dealt with it. I've looked into what it would mean to start HRT and all that jazz. It unfortunately scares me, all the stuff about hormones and how you'll have to take them indefinitely for the rest of your life and possible side effects... Haven't said anything to anyone close about this because as I said earlier, I am conflicted. Some days I'll go, "Yep, I'm totally trans closeted" and other days, "Wtf are you thinking?!"
> 
> Given how much mental anguish it gives me must mean something major is up regardless. Yay...?


You know, what you describe is actually fairly typical for most people when they get around the idea that they were trans. I relate a lot to what you describe btw except in reverse, being AFAB. I do tend to prefer female characters in fiction though, mostly because aesthetically they look better and the grunt brawny idea of masculinity that's idealized in the west doesn't attract me. If there were Asian styled guys though, yeah, I'd play those. 

Typically, what I tend to suggest to people that are at the start of their realizations is to begin to explore those feelings. Going all the way to HRT right away is brash and can led to outcomes that may be regretted later on. Some things HRT change cannot be reversed, so one needs to be completely informed of what one is doing before starting HRT. However, there are other small things you can do like trying out other names (even if just online with new people), changing the way you dress etc. These things can be reversed and have no long-lasting effects and that will also tell you with what you feel comfortable with and what feels right for you and what doesn't. 

I would also contact a gender therapist nearby if it's possible for you. They can help you sort out your thoughts as well.



Aya the Abysswalker said:


> Hello everyone, Aya again with questions because yeah.
> 
> So my boyfriend has become unsure about having bottom surgery and has been seeking solutions and possibilities for him. His biggest fear is that he might lose sexual pleasure and that he might be unable to have sex with me. He has come across a peecock but doesn't know if that is good enough or if there are better things for his issue. Plus, it's expensive and only lasts for year.
> 
> Do you guys know of anything that might help?
> 
> For those who don't know what a peecock is here's an example Peecock Products - 4.75 Inch Triple Features Gen3S Pee-Cock He originally wanted to get something like this but is unsure because of price.
> 
> Before I forget, link is NFSW.


Nice, but so expensive. I haven't felt a need for a packer personally, like idk, I don't feel like the nature of my masculinity hinges on whether I got some brunt in my underwear, but the idea of a penis seems to unconsciously creep more into my mind, seeing how I've had dreams about that twice now quite recently. First I don't remember anymore, but last I remember being asked if I literally had a penis or not, and I just whipped on out of my pants lol, and then the other person said something like "good, you're not trans" or something. Weird as hell.


----------

