# Self-conscious/self-esteem issues/psychological issues among ENTJs



## L'Enfant Terrible (Jun 8, 2014)

I know everybody sees ENTJs as the ultimate Iron Men. But we're human and ,as all humans, subjected to psychological/emotional issues. As much as I hate it to say, we hurt and we bleed the same way as others do.

Although I am now alright (for lack of better word) I've had crippling self-esteem issues in the past. However, at the same time I am almost narcissistic and consider myself to be so much better than others in so many ways. 

During childhood I had OCD. I wasn't diagnosed (well, they don't know what OCD is in my country even now) but as a psychiatric/neurological/psychological disease connoisseur I see that I had classic OCD. I wasn't a neat freak (still not) or a germophobe or anything people usually associate woth ocd but I had to touch something enough times until it felt right. Or I had to place stuff at a certain angle or else I'd feel like there's incredible tension building in my body that made me wanna jump out my own skin. I had to align my toys in a perfect line or circle by height color and texture. Sometimes I repeated the same sentence over and over again until I "got it right". Or could read the same 2 lines for half an hour. However, this made me a great student because I read every book time after time after time. However, I stopped my "condition" with pure will power because even though I was a master at hiding it, some people have noticed my strange behaviour and it was cause of embarassment.

I have also always been very sensitive when it comes to embarassment. That's why I still prefer to be around people that neither get embarassed easily nor like to embarass/humiliate others.

Did you ever experience trouble with self esteem or any other psychological issue really?


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

My doctor taught me self-esteem, there was no basis for doing what I desired with self-esteem in place. There's no reason to hold yourself in esteem and no reason to hold yourself in contempt. The self is only as it appears to itself and to other selves. The concept of worshipping and rewarding it is a disaster waiting to happen. People with high self-esteem and people with low self-esteem share the commonality of selfish attention toward themselves, as if they matter.


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## L'Enfant Terrible (Jun 8, 2014)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> My doctor taught me self-esteem, there was no basis for doing what I desired with self-esteem in place. There's no reason to hold yourself in esteem and no reason to hold yourself in contempt. The self is only as it appears to itself and to other selves. The concept of worshipping and rewarding it is a disaster waiting to happen. People with high self-esteem and people with low self-esteem share the commonality of selfish attention toward themselves, as if they matter.


What you say makes perfect sense and I totally agree. However, neurotypical people are plagued by unnecessary emotions that will and do surface at the most lousy of times. 

I do have one objection though. While I agree that is isn't healthy to worship or despise the self it is also not healthy to be oblivious to it. One should reward oneself in moderation. The key is balance.


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

L'Enfant Terrible said:


> What you say makes perfect sense and I totally agree. However, neurotypical people are plagued by unnecessary emotions that will and do surface at the most lousy of times.
> 
> I do have one objection though. While I agree that is isn't healthy to worship or despise the self it is also not healthy to be oblivious to it. One should reward oneself in moderation. The key is balance.


It's not so much rewarding as judging favorably or not. It basically boils down to "if you wouldn't want someone to bully you, why would you do it to yourself?" Which is the basic question to people with low self esteem. But the whole continuum relies on the same lack of criteria. I could view myself as the King of the world tomorrow and a peasant today. It is complete idealism to judge oneself, and the judgement leads to consequences. Why do it at all?


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## L'Enfant Terrible (Jun 8, 2014)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> It's not so much rewarding as judging favorably or not. It basically boils down to "if you wouldn't want someone to bully you, why would you do it to yourself?" Which is the basic question to people with low self esteem. But the whole continuum relies on the same lack of criteria. I could view myself as the King of the world tomorrow and a peasant today. It is complete idealism to judge oneself, and the judgement leads to consequences. Why do it at all?


Not judging oneself at all is definitely something to be learned, it does not come naturally. Humans are instinctively going to judge themselves and others without even noticing it ( the fact that we make impressions about somebody in literally a few seconds after we meet said person is an example of how subconsciously we judge, and this cannot be "turned off" even if you rewire yourself). 

There's great advice in what you mentioned above. But let me say that judging oneself is quite the necessary evil. If kept at bay, it's a very good tool for measuring one's achievements,potential and goals. Obviously, if it spirals out of control it does more harm than good.


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## HAL (May 10, 2014)

Yes I taught myself to have self-esteem.

In a recent thread on here I explained how I took far too many drugs and blew my mind when I was 19/20.

I ended up with paranoia, major anxiety, panic disorder for a bit. etc etc.

Towards the end of the recovery, I decided to take it a step further, and tried to actually raise my confidence and social abilities above what I was normally used to.

Even through those dark days of mine, I was still actually socially quite capable. But deep down, in my own mind, the confidence, anxiety etc was crippling.

So anyway I started making a real effort to properly look people in the eye, have a dominant kind of attitude when talking with people, or at least I kept in mind that I should stay positive and open, instead of withdrawing into my thoughts.

It definitely worked. I was confident and capable and could handle things a lot better.

It was ages ago though and now I'm trying another technique, which is to simply not give a fuck. I'll be me and that's that. This might just be an attitude that's coming with age though. As I draw closer to 30, I really don't feel the need to make efforts to 'fit in' or do the 'right thing' any more, and it's quite liberating.

Having said that, I'm gonna go back to trying my self-esteem thing, speaking confident, looking people in the eyes, etc, because I have a new girlfriend and I am shit-fucking-scared-to-death of the day I meet her family because she's told me they're very family-oriented and I'll be meeting them all at some point. INTP's WORST NIGHTMARE. So I need to toughen up for it. More self-esteem training for me is needed now, methinks!


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## L'Enfant Terrible (Jun 8, 2014)

HAL said:


> Yes I taught myself to have self-esteem.
> 
> In a recent thread on here I explained how I took far too many drugs and blew my mind when I was 19/20.
> 
> ...


Hey, I'm glad you figured yourself out and got better! 

Yeah I think the "don't give a fuck" attitude comes with age. As a teenager I acted as if I don't care, now I'm actually starting to not care at all if I fit in or if people like me or not.

Why would that be so scary for an INTP? I thought INTPs worst nightmare would be cognitive loss/brain damage of sorts. 

I had the same fear. I'm not saying I will be 100% relaxed when meeting the parents but I'm not scared anymore. Although making a good impression might seem essential, in the end, it's not their decission whether to accept you in the family or not.


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## HAL (May 10, 2014)

L'Enfant Terrible said:


> Why would that be so scary for an INTP? I thought INTPs worst nightmare would be cognitive loss/brain damage of sorts.


Nah, we value intelligence but it's not like we necessarily hold any emotional attachment to our own.

Social exposure in situations where you may need to act, or follow common courtesies, or general feel like you can't just chill the fuck out and be yourself - this is something INTPs really hate. In the end it's our own fault for not just, well, chilling the fuck out, haha.

I guess there's also the fact that I may or may not feel scrutinised for things I really don't care about.

Main point is INTPs tend to rather hate unnecessary overexposure. Specially ones like me who suffered anxiety and all that!!


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## xForgottenOne (Mar 7, 2015)

I have had really low self-esteem a couple of years ago. I had just been diagnosed with social anxiety disorder and seasonal affective disorder, and I just hated myself. I thought I was worth nothing. Now, a few years later, hiding both my conditions, I feel better. I've learned how to start conversations and engage in social situations, and I have a light therapy lamp. I'm finishing high school this year and I will attend university! The fact that I can go to an uni boosts my self-esteem.


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## L'Enfant Terrible (Jun 8, 2014)

HAL said:


> Nah, we value intelligence but it's not like we necessarily hold any emotional attachment to our own.
> 
> Social exposure in situations where you may need to act, or follow common courtesies, or general feel like you can't just chill the fuck out and be yourself - this is something INTPs really hate. In the end it's our own fault for not just, well, chilling the fuck out, haha.
> 
> ...


I have no problem with behaving "politely" or act in a certain way if the situation demands, especiay when it comes to older people (parents,teachers etc) but I have a hard time behaving this way towards people my age, I mean, I'll act however the fuck I want.


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## L'Enfant Terrible (Jun 8, 2014)

xForgottenOne said:


> I have had really low self-esteem a couple of years ago. I had just been diagnosed with social anxiety disorder and seasonal affective disorder, and I just hated myself. I thought I was worth nothing. Now, a few years later, hiding both my conditions, I feel better. I've learned how to start conversations and engage in social situations, and I have a light therapy lamp. I'm finishing high school this year and I will attend university! The fact that I can go to an uni boosts my self-esteem.


Does your lamp therapy work? I guess it could work for seasonal mood disorders (lack of light etc) but how on earth would it work for anything else.


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## cerenach (Mar 26, 2015)

L'Enfant Terrible said:


> I know everybody sees ENTJs as the ultimate Iron Men. But we're human and ,as all humans, subjected to psychological/emotional issues. As much as I hate it to say, we hurt and we bleed the same way as others do.
> 
> Although I am now alright (for lack of better word) I've had crippling self-esteem issues in the past. However, at the same time I am almost narcissistic and consider myself to be so much better than others in so many ways.
> 
> ...


Not an ENTJ (probably) but this is an interesting thread. I find the juxtaposition of your position with mine especially so. 

INTPs are generally seen as passive and quirky intellectuals, but because of the toxic environment I grew up in, I became more aggressive and intense in order to protect myself. I also disassociated a lot and developed a strong independent/anti-authority streak. While I still have some difficulty with emotional vulnerability and subconsciously threat assessing people, I'm a lot calmer now than I used to be. It's definitely made typing more difficult. 

As far as self-esteem goes...eh, that's a difficult story. Imagine spending a lot of time defending the self from perceived dangers and one night having an epiphany that there isn't a self to defend and suddenly being flooded with relief. Sorry, if that doesn't make sense. 

If you don't mind my asking, how were you able to distinguish your personality from the effect that your OCD and esteem problems had on it? I struggle to relate to any one type because I find it difficult to separate my various facades from my actual self and could use some help in that regard.


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## L'Enfant Terrible (Jun 8, 2014)

cerenach said:


> Not an ENTJ (probably) but this is an interesting thread. I find the juxtaposition of your position with mine especially so.
> 
> INTPs are generally seen as passive and quirky intellectuals, but because of the toxic environment I grew up in, I became more aggressive and intense in order to protect myself. I also disassociated a lot and developed a strong independent/anti-authority streak. While I still have some difficulty with emotional vulnerability and subconsciously threat assessing people, I'm a lot calmer now than I used to be. It's definitely made typing more difficult.
> 
> ...


My childhood OCD didn't have a lasting effect on me. The slef-esteem issues were a result of clinical depression from which I've suffered many years. Due to being depressed,lonely,paranoid(nobody wants me,love me,needs me,I'm useless etc) I developed strictly INTP-ish traits and I was typed as INTP and believed myself to be an INTP for quite a few years (actually until last year).

Then I found out about PerC and got deeper into the understanding of mbti and functions and realized that most of all, I'm extroverted as hell. So my first function couldn't be an introverted one. I literally harassed tons of knowledgeable people on here in order to type me with great detail and give me feedback. At first ot seemed like a waste of time since I got everything from ISTP to ENFJ. However, this opened me up to new experiences - hey, there can be more possibilities why not. Although I knew I couldn't be ESFJ or a few other types I considered them as well. Then one day there came the time for considering ENTJ. It seemed weird at first but after asking lots of people (friends and enemies alike) about myself and abalyzing myself for a few months I realized it fits quite perfectly. Better than any other at least. I needed an expert opinion though so I contacted Charity (the girl that runs funky mbti blog) and she typed me as ENTJ as well after a long discussion. I've doubted my mbti for a while after but came back to ENTJ everytime. Now I'm over the mbti, since it's pseudoscience at best and only a method of having fun for me. So I could be considered INFP for all I care. I know who I am beyond the "type".


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## Strelok (Aug 16, 2013)

L'Enfant Terrible said:


> Why would that be so scary for an INTP? I thought INTPs worst nightmare would be cognitive loss/brain damage of sorts.


SJs and all that comes with them are pretty much Satan to us.

A couple example reasons



HAL said:


> Social exposure in situations where you may need to act, or follow common courtesies, or general feel like you can't just chill the fuck out and be yourself - this is something INTPs really hate. In the end it's our own fault for not just, well, chilling the fuck out, haha.
> 
> I guess there's also the fact that I may or may not feel scrutinised for things I really don't care about.


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## Aiwass (Jul 28, 2014)

INTJ here with primarily obsessional OCD. Even though I have gone through a lot, I've never had low self-esteem. I don't think I have high self-esteem either, it's just that I don't usually think about myself. I am who I am; I don't ponder about me in terms of "I am bad/good" or "I should be like this/I should be like that". Doesn't come naturally to me.


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## ArBell (Feb 10, 2014)

Kleptomania when I was a kid


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## TheDave (Feb 17, 2015)

Self-esteem issues and generalized anxiety disorder (GAD) during my late childhood and my early teens.

It fixed over time, thanks to sport and some conscious efforts on my part. In my late teens I was yet feeling better.


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## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

Heh, topic asks for ENTJs - NTPs crowd in. :tongue:

It's amazing how much _acting_ like you want yourself to feel is changing how you feel. Wow, that sentence made no sense. 

Story time. 4 years ago my social anxiety was so bad that I couldn't make a phone call without getting heart palpitations, hyperventilating and nearly blacking out. After actually going to a doctor and getting diagnosed I tried therapy but didn't not have enough money to pay for it, and from what I tried it didn't seem helpful to me since it relied a lot on my understanding what I feel and my emotions which was never my strong suit (still isn't). So after I was left without help I decided "This is not me, this is just fucked up brain chemistry and no way I'm letting my body rule me" and decided to do everything that my SAD did not want me to do - call strangers, dress and style myself in a way that attracted attention (positive or negative, it did not matter to SAD), approach strangers, talk to cashiers and shop managers, and just generally _act_ as if I was supreme self-assured, had an ego and was not afraid to flaunt it. At first I was afraid that I would drive people away from me since I've spent so many years with SAD I wasn't sure I would be accepted by others and hell was I afraid of isolation. Turned out that yes, as my SAD relented, I lost my physical reactions to a fear and regained confidence, some people left me stating reasons like "You were so nice and pleasant, you changed so much, I don't feel like I know you anymore!" (hint: you didn't know me) but in return I gained many others that found me fun as I am even though I stopped always filtering my words or trying to appear mellow and unaggressive. Sometimes I still can't believe that people like me despite my relative coldness and sharp attitude but hey, they do!

TL;DR Start acting in a ways that contradicts your phobias, anxiety and self-esteem issues. It's hard. Really hard. Takes years but it's worth it. You have a life to live, things to see, people to do, don't waste it letting irrational fear cripple you.


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## L'Enfant Terrible (Jun 8, 2014)

Greyhart said:


> Heh, topic asks for ENTJs - NTPs crowd in. :tongue:
> 
> It's amazing how much _acting_ like you want yourself to feel is changing how you feel. Wow, that sentence made no sense.
> 
> ...


It actually makes a lot of sense. I did this as well in order to overcome deeply rooted self-esteem issues.

I have been bullied all through late primary and middle school for being the ugly nerd nobody liked or wanted to be friends with. I had health issues so I went through hormonal therapy which made me balloon almost overnight and caused acne and stuff. Until 3rd grade I was a naturally skinny child with big blue eyes, long silver-blonde hair and a natural ENTJ. However after years and years of severe bullying and beating I became very quiet,shy,afraid of socializing,paranoid,suicidal,aggressive,misanthropical,had literally 1 friend IRL. I also live in a small country and everybody knows everybody in my city so imagine that I was being bullied not just by a group of people but by a whole fucking city. 

However, I grew up and got prettier and at 16 everything changed. Guys started to actually talk to me and like me,girls started to envy me,the most popular guy in school dated me. I had to cope with all of this and not show people how emotionally crippled I was. So I started to act like the girl I really was inside. Practising this everyday made me get rid of pretty much all the previous issues. And now, oh dear, nobody would guess I let anybody bully me. I am , by everyone's words, a real bitch. And guess what, I prefer being a bitch you don't cross rather than a whimp.


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