# Why would anyone have sex with Mystery?



## Rachel Something (Jan 30, 2012)

Lol! I don't understand it either. I find him incredibly unattractive... and somewhat pitiful, but oh well.

And I see some guys have already gotten offended... just as I expected when I saw the thread title.


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## milti (Feb 8, 2012)

I don't know who Mystery is, but a similar question - what kinds of people like to go on shows like Bachelor and Excused? (shows where they get to have sex / speed dating with women and men). It just seems creepy that shows like that actually thrive and that people actually enjoy watching them!!


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## Playful Proxy (Feb 6, 2012)

I think some females are threatened by the fact that he claims to have the ability to manipulate women and backs it up with action. Saying it bothers you morally is one thing. Saying it has no effect on you is silly since you have not experienced it. Something tells me if you did not know who he was and he made an attempt, things would likely turn out differently (primarily because you would not know his motives). Thus is the way with manipulation.


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

Dashing said:


> I like it how you hate him for being a shallow fuck and 'deceiving' women whilst calling him ugly and a weirdo. Wait, isn't that called hypocrisy?


I didn't call him shallow or say he deceives women. I don't like his personal style or the philosophy that he lives his life under. I think the way he dresses is tacky & his "tactics" contrived & I'm surprised it works on a lot of people. I'm just talking, if you disagree then good.



> Can't you see that there are people out there LOOKING for such an encounter? And that that may be the reason why it works?


No, tell me more. I mean, pleasantly though.



> You see his philosophy as degrading women, I might see it as giving guys a push in the back.


No actually I don't think that. This has nothing to do with gender, it has more to do with me not liking fuzzy boas for the most part.

On that topic, while I can appreciate the struggle of socially awkward men in the dating world, it's not about "men" vs "women" or "men getting a break", plenty of women are in the same boat. It's a person thing and we all struggle with it. My concern is as @Ace Face mentions, that it may teach people too contrived ways of viewing & dealing with one another that actually creates more distance , as opposed to looking within oneself & becoming more comfortable with oneself. Learning conversational skills & ice-breakers to help do that is probably the main thing Mystery helps others with. But I still wouldn't have sex with him. CAUSE HE'S GROSS.


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

Signify said:


> I think some females are threatened by the fact that he claims to have the ability to manipulate women and backs it up with action. Saying it bothers you morally is one thing. Saying it has no effect on you is silly since you have not experienced it. Something tells me if you did not know who he was and he made an attempt, things would likely turn out differently (primarily because you would not know his motives). Thus is the way with manipulation.


I feel like you think I am a snake and he is a snake charmer. I am helpless to his wiles. Oh another 18 year old girl falls to an aging club going man's clutches, his charisma outdid me. I can't provide any proof so I'll just have to rest in my gut that it wouldn't play out like that, though I don't think he'd go for me in the first place.


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

milti said:


> I don't know who Mystery is, but a similar question - what kinds of people like to go on shows like Bachelor and Excused? (shows where they get to have sex / speed dating with women and men). It just seems creepy that shows like that actually thrive and that people actually enjoy watching them!!


i think they just wanna be famous. :x it can be kinda gross to watch tho, can't it? like, you know those dating shows where he'll be making out with one girl in "private time" and then he'll be like "we really connected!" & it's like... "uh, no you didn't?" and then 30 minutes later he's doing it with another girl. like, if I really thought I was in love with someone, I couldn't handle the tension of other girls all over him & him participating, I'd have to leave! Tho I wouldn't like a guy like that in the first place. anyhoo. OH POP CULTURE


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

I have no idea who Mystery is, but I Googled him...he looks like a tool. I would never be remotely interested in that guy. Normally I wouldn't make such an absolute statement, but between his appearance and his supposed "art", no way, just no.


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## Playful Proxy (Feb 6, 2012)

adverseaffects said:


> I feel like you think I am a snake and he is a snake charmer. I am helpless to his wiles. Oh another 18 year old girl falls to an aging club going man's clutches, his charisma outdid me. I can't provide any proof so I'll just have to rest in my gut that it wouldn't play out like that, though I don't think he'd go for me in the first place.


Meh, what he does seems to work regardless. I dunno, I just can't help but wonder the root of hostility. This just seems like some feel threatened by the possibility.


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

Signify said:


> Meh, what he does seems to work regardless. I dunno, I just can't help but wonder the root of hostility. This just seems like some feel threatened by the possibility.


nah i think we just think he's stupid.


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## Emerson (Mar 13, 2011)

Why would anyone want do be with you?

He brings lots to the table obviously.


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## EmileeArsenic (Jun 8, 2012)

Not even on a cold day in Hell. His views on women are offensive, and ridiculous... But not quite as ridiculous as that tattooed lipstick on his neck.


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## Narcotic (Jun 20, 2012)

I've said it before and I'll say it again, NF rage gives me the heebie jeebies.


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

Narcotic said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again, NF rage gives me the heebie jeebies.


goodness no one is raging i was having a bit of fun when i posted this, it's the NTs who r takign it so srsly, lighten up guize *passes joint*

are we allowed to do that on here?


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

Emerson said:


> Why would anyone want do be with you?
> 
> He brings lots to the table obviously.


Like what though.


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## Emerson (Mar 13, 2011)

adverseaffects said:


> Like what though.


Money, stuff, drinks. The things people who want a quick fuck want.


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

Emerson said:


> Money, stuff, drinks. The things people who want a quick fuck want.


oh that's why it isn't ringing any bells for me


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## Rachel Something (Jan 30, 2012)

Emerson said:


> Money, stuff, *drinks*. The things people who want a quick fuck want.


That's the answer right there... lots and lots of alcohol. Never underestimate the power of tequila goggles.


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## Emerson (Mar 13, 2011)

adverseaffects said:


> oh that's why it isn't ringing any bells for me


Obviously, I suppose you can draw likeness's between him and various specialised birds and hunting animals, they're designed or honed for a particular purpose and they're very good at it.

Interestingly I've heard he's an INFJ... Which is nice.


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

Emerson said:


> Obviously, I suppose you can draw likeness's between him and various specialised birds and hunting animals, they're designed or honed for a particular purpose and they're very good at it.
> 
> Interestingly I've heard he's an INFJ... Which is nice.


not for the infjs


HAHAHAHA JUST KIDDING
kinda


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## Emerson (Mar 13, 2011)

adverseaffects said:


> not for the infjs
> 
> 
> HAHAHAHA JUST KIDDING
> kinda



I like it, it points away a lot of the smugness of the INFJ's that they have not only some abhorrent people, but they also have manipulative slugs in their ranks... Good to know they're not all unicorns that shit panda babies.


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

From the pictures I see, he isn't *that* ugly, I have seen worse. But I have no idea who he is.


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## hulia (Sep 13, 2012)

Nah, no thanks. Various reasons as to why also. But to anyone who does, his name holds the answer. We just don't know, _it's a mystery_.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

I don't find him exactly attractive, but I can see he has a nice enough face and interesting enough style to be attractive to a sizable amount of people. However, maybe I just knew weird kids back in high school because he really just reminds me of the type guy they were into... the industrial gothic type. So in regards to his looks, it's a matter of personal taste.

But, also. He's bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The more women he has sex with and the more his "infamy" grows the more become intrigued by him. How exactly suave is he? Is he bound to be good in bed with that many partners? Even if it is all a game, charm is charm and sex is sex.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

adverseaffects said:


> On that topic, while I can appreciate the struggle of socially awkward men in the dating world, it's not about "men" vs "women" or "men getting a break", plenty of women are in the same boat. It's a person thing and we all struggle with it. My concern is as @_Ace Face_ mentions, that it may teach people too contrived ways of viewing & dealing with one another that actually creates more distance , as opposed to looking within oneself & becoming more comfortable with oneself. Learning conversational skills & ice-breakers to help do that is probably the main thing Mystery helps others with. But I still wouldn't have sex with him. CAUSE HE'S GROSS.


Fair enough. So why not instead use that energy to start a thread about alternative ways to work on that struggle, rather than project this on a famous person?


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

adverseaffects said:


> On that topic, while I can appreciate the struggle of socially awkward men in the dating world, it's not about "men" vs "women" or "men getting a break", plenty of women are in the same boat. It's a person thing and we all struggle with it. My concern is as @_Ace Face_ mentions, that it may teach people too contrived ways of viewing & dealing with one another that actually creates more distance , as opposed to looking within oneself & becoming more comfortable with oneself. Learning conversational skills & ice-breakers to help do that is probably the main thing Mystery helps others with. But I still wouldn't have sex with him. CAUSE HE'S GROSS.


So you're placing the influence of all men and their approach at getting sex on one, and I'm being generous here, d-list celebrity made famous on VH1?


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

I do wonder if this is a value judgment.
I don't know him really or what he's written in his books. I have heard that some of it is good advice while some of it though may work is unethical. I probably agree with that.
I would also wonder if a lot of women are disgusted with him in the same way as they would be by a guy who does sleep around just like they would judge a woman who does as well. Your values tell you that you should be monogamous and faithful to one and that what you feel works for you but when the issue with that is what you value isn't what everyone values so those who don't have the same value are of course bad in your eyes.

So whether he is a bad person or not, I can't really summarize. Im still unsure about PUA and all that, I see it as guys using techniques whether unethical or not to get women. I then think do we think all women as prey then, susceptible to every man who has a few fancy words. You think because you wouldn't fall for him that no woman should. 
Women aren't stupid as a rule, there certainly are idiot men and women and men tend to be more extreme as outliers but I think to view him as a completely bad person is to also view women as only victims who don't have choice in having sex. That they are being preyed on by bad men and they are innocent girls who don't like sex.
So why would anyone have sex with him? Don't know, i'm not the women he slept with.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

I think a better question would be: Has anyone here _had_ sex with Mystery.


Not saying he's a mega stud, but he does get laid regardless as if anyone here agrees with his method. I've always found it odd how people adamantly dislike mystery and men like him, yet the women that they sleep with get a free pass because they've been "deceived". It's silly broads that give mystery and other PUAs their power. They're the real fools in this.


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## ForsakenMe (Aug 30, 2010)

He looks like a jackass, lol!


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

android654 said:


> So you're placing the influence of all men and their approach at getting sex on one, and I'm being generous here, d-list celebrity made famous on VH1?


No if you read what i wrote this is the exact opposite of what I said.
I said it's a universal thing people struggle with, some do it better than others, once again I said it isn't a "men" thing so can people please stop trying to read pronouncments about gender where there aren't any it's exhausting, and I said people who use mystery's methods & other PUA styles of relating seem really contrived tho they may help learn some good surface social skills. Is that about all men? No, I hardly think all men use PUA & mystery's tactics & even the one's who do used them to different degrees.


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

Wellsy said:


> I would also wonder if a lot of women are disgusted with him in the same way as they would be by a guy who does sleep around just like they would judge a woman who does as well. Your values tell you that you should be monogamous and faithful to one and that what you feel works for you but when the issue with that is what you value isn't what everyone values so those who don't have the same value are of course bad in your eyes.
> 
> .


No, that isn't what I said. I don't think any of that. people sure read into things. I don't think he's "bad", though I generally am not attracted to people like that & feel very wary around men who hit on me. But that's a personal thing.

It isn't that Mystery sleeps with a lot of people, it's WHY he has chosen to do so. Born of deep insecurity, his ENTIRE world view is seen in terms of "lack of women" vs "scoring women". I think that's sad & not what a sexy man looks like to me.

Should other women sleep with him? If they want. "Should" has nothing to do with it, there is no "should" in who they want to sleep with, they "should" sleep with who they want to. My initial question was "why though."

There really isn't anything to get offended about, once again, last time, i am not making moral judgements but rather stupid conversation. If one girl comes on and says why she find Mystery sexy as hell she is welcome to do so. (but does she exist)


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

Chipps said:


> I think a better question would be: Has anyone here _had_ sex with Mystery.
> 
> 
> Not saying he's a mega stud, but he does get laid regardless as if anyone here agrees with his method. I've always found it odd how people adamantly dislike mystery and men like him, yet the women that they sleep with get a free pass because they've been "deceived". It's silly broads that give mystery and other PUAs their power. They're the real fools in this.


The reason I suspect people dislike them is because the PUA-type usually lives it as a life-style-- while they are unique humans with flaws & vulnerabilities like the rest of us, that's an ugly premise to create a life. But on the surface, the tactics probably look quite appealing, I can't say for myself but supposedly they work, idk, so I can see why people would sleep with them. They are DESIGNED to be appealing. I don't know if "tricked" is the right word but I bet a lot of women would feel kinda gross knowing they were "played" like a lotto machine to get to the end goal "bed bed bed SCORE". I don't think it's morally wrong I just think it's a gross way to live your life.


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## Calvaire (Nov 14, 2009)

My first thought that chick that hobbled that guy's leg in that movie? YeahI mean I guess she could be kinky...and then OH mystery not misery
that odd man from that show not my taste. lol
XD


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

mimesis said:


> Fair enough. So why not instead use that energy to start a thread about alternative ways to work on that struggle, rather than project this on a famous person?


Cause that's not what I'm talking about nor what I am concerned about nor what the thread was creating for, it was addressing someone else's off topic thoughts. Cause you just can't have a silly thread on these forums it's all gotta be about morals and agendas and gender roles and shit. *sigh* This thread really isn't meant to be taken so seriously. If you'd like to sleep with Mystery, please say so & why. -.-


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

adverseaffects said:


> Should other women sleep with him? If they want. "Should" has nothing to do with it, there is no "should" in who they want to sleep with, they "should" sleep with who they want to. My initial question was "why though."


Well I would assume they're attracted for what ever reason and it could very well be the way he approaches his goal.
You could ask the same question of anyone, I doubt the amount of women he's slept with would be large enough to create a probable chance that they would find this site and stumble into this thread.
There reason wouldn't be anything satisfying though, it's wouldn't even be exciting to hear the why for couples who do love each other. They can say what ever but a lot of it is simply attraction, they were attracted enough and for long enough to be bedded.

Yes I did read into it, I apologize for misunderstanding your intentions.
Perhaps I was seeking for my own interest in trying to understand all of this than the desired outcome.
I'm not offended though, just spouting thoughts


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

Wellsy said:


> Well I would assume they're attracted for what ever reason and it could very well be the way he approaches his goal.
> You could ask the same question of anyone, I doubt the amount of women he's slept with would be large enough to create a probable chance that they would find this site and stumble into this thread.
> There reason wouldn't be anything satisfying though, it's wouldn't even be exciting to hear the why for couples who do love each other. They can say what ever but a lot of it is simply attraction, they were attracted enough and for long enough to be bedded.
> 
> ...


As am I friend, spouting stupid thoughts, I should have thought more about how ppl would react to me just being silly & posting whatever.


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

adverseaffects said:


> As am I friend, spouting stupid thoughts, I should have thought more about how ppl would react to me just being silly & posting whatever.


Tone helps a lot in how we understand words, text just doesn't convey it.
So one must use other ways to really spell it out to folk 'I-M J-O-K-I-N-G".
I would think most women of course are capable enough to not bother with the likes of Mystery, most girls pretty soon learn that kind of bullshit us men tend to spit.
Bullshit detectors are so good because seen every trick so many times from different guys.

Liven the people up, spice them up with some jokes


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

adverseaffects said:


> Cause that's not what I'm talking about nor what I am concerned about nor what the thread was creating for, it was addressing someone else's off topic thoughts. Cause you just can't have a silly thread on these forums it's all gotta be about morals and agendas and gender roles and shit. *sigh* This thread really isn't meant to be taken so seriously. If you'd like to sleep with Mystery, please say so & why. -.-



I responded to a serious notion. And he isn't just a guy. Not that I care much about that. I think this whole PUA thing is a bit hyped. Many of my woman friends are pretty self-assertive, and while they wouldn't mind if a man takes charge, it's more that these guys can't handle assertive women. Very uncool, haha. They hate that, get all confused. Very entertaining to observe. 

But to answer your question, nah. Although I can imagine some women find him attractive. I could also imagine why others would find him creepy.


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## Arbite (Dec 26, 2010)

I've always been curious about the whole PUA thing. Mainly because I've never really had much difficulty sleeping with women, and quite a few of my male friends have asked me for advice. I find PUA tactics simply ways of quantizing and teaching things that come naturally to other people.

You have no idea how unbelievably annoying it is when my friends watch me like a hawk talking to girls, or the last time I promissed to wingman for one.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

adverseaffects said:


> No if you read what i wrote this is the exact opposite of what I said.
> I said it's a universal thing people struggle with, some do it better than others, once again I said it isn't a "men" thing so can people please stop trying to read pronouncments about gender where there aren't any it's exhausting, and I said people who use mystery's methods & other PUA styles of relating seem really contrived tho they may help learn some good surface social skills. Is that about all men? No, I hardly think all men use PUA & mystery's tactics & even the one's who do used them to different degrees.


So then what is your problem with him and what he does?


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

android654 said:


> So then what is your problem with him and what he does?


already stated


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

adverseaffects said:


> The reason I suspect people dislike them is because the PUA-type usually lives it as a life-style-- while they are unique humans with flaws & vulnerabilities like the rest of us, that's an ugly premise to create a life. But on the surface, the tactics probably look quite appealing, I can't say for myself but supposedly they work, idk, so I can see why people would sleep with them. They are DESIGNED to be appealing. I don't know if "tricked" is the right word but I bet a lot of women would feel kinda gross knowing they were "played" like a lotto machine to get to the end goal "bed bed bed SCORE". I don't think it's morally wrong I just think it's a gross way to live your life.


I dont understand why anyone would be grossed out. I mean, this "method" isnt really designed to forge strong bonds in relationships. Its meant to get you a ONS and maybe a short term fuck buddy situation. If someone agrees to either of these scenarios then they are taking a pretty large risk considering they have not known the person long enough to figure out if they are genuine or some slimball player. So, I think you get what you get. You took a risk and realized only after the fact that you fucked some loser who ran the mystery method on you. These women need to look at their lives and look at their choices.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

infinitewisdom said:


> Feminism is the female version of PUA. haha


According to some radical PUAs, feminism is the "ultimate shit test". I kid you not.


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## infinitewisdom (Jan 23, 2011)

Torai said:


> According to some radical PUAs, feminism is the "ultimate shit test". I kid you not.


What do they mean by the ultimate shit test?


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

infinitewisdom said:


> What does they mean by the ultimate shit test?


Shit testing is apparently a test a girl uses to evaluate your beta status whenever she's interested in you. Some PUAs talk about it like it happens every time. And I think a few of them use it to evade criticism.

"Are you fucking crazy?! You just shot that old lady and fed her to her kittens!"

"You're shit testing me, aren't you?"

"No, you're fucking mental!"

"Shit testing!"


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

infinitewisdom said:


> Feminism is the female version of PUA. haha



Oh no he didn't.


:laughing:


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

Torai said:


> Because PUA is all about negging, peacocking, and manipulation.
> 
> I'm done with this. You obviously haven't explored this in any depth except from people who like to criticize it.



You're right. Most people haven't explored this topic deep enough and yet everyone here has an opinion on what they _think_ they know about the whole issue. The first time I every heard about PUA, game etc. I did a google search of it and ended up spending months reading dozens of different blogs and thousands of comments etc. There are quite a few weak, manipulative men who do it to dehumanize women, but a lot of them just wanted to become better at interacting with women. A lot of them wanted to become confident. That was it. But youre talking to a wall of politically correct thinking heavily influenced by feminism. No point in trying to get through.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

Chipps said:


> You're right. Most people haven't explored this topic deep enough and yet everyone here has an opinion on what they _think_ they know about the whole issue. The first time I every heard about PUA, game etc. I did a google search of it and ended up spending months reading dozens of different blogs and thousands of comments etc. There are quite a few weak, manipulative men who do it to dehumanize women, but a lot of them just wanted to become better at interacting with women. A lot of them wanted to become confident. That was it. But youre talking to a wall of politically correct thinking heavily influenced by feminism. No point in trying to get through.


I knew it peripherally through my brother. Even though I didn't really identify as a feminist back then, I took that same stance a few years ago. Then my brother actually set me straight on that opinion, and I read a few of the things with an open mind. While I admit Mystery and guys like him are giant asshats, I learned some views that actually made me less misogynistic. It's why I don't like to paint the Seduction community with a broad brush.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Low. Self. Esteem.


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

fourtines said:


> Low. Self. Esteem.


Pretty much. 

I don't know if mystery does the same method. . . but I'd heard of some kind of "number method", where the objective of any interaction is to lower a girl's self-esteem (her number) and raise her perception of your value (your number). 

I've gone out to parties with guys who neg (openly tell me they do so). They make a challenging comment or a slight jab at a woman's value. Covered up with a laugh. Always a laugh. But the _intent _of such a move is to diminish a girl's sense of her own value and I've seen girls fall for it hard. 

Stay sharp ladies.

As for "game" which involves memorizing amusing anecdotes and methods for entertaining women or talking BS to make oneself look more valuable (magic tricks, random mystical bullshit). . . not my deal but I see no harm in it. If a girl can't see past a few canned anecdotes and finds herself dating a fuckhead, her caution didn't serve her well enough.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

Torai said:


> I knew it peripherally through my brother. Even though I didn't really identify as a feminist back then, I took that same stance a few years ago. Then my brother actually set me straight on that opinion, and *I read a few of the things with an open mind. *While I admit Mystery and guys like him are giant asshats, I learned some views that actually made me less misogynistic. It's why I don't like to paint the Seduction community with a broad brush.


So many people in that part of the internet started out the same place as you. They all thought PUA was bullshit. Read up on it more and more. Found information that contradicted everything they'd believed about PUA and game and actually learned alot. They all have a lot of views and ideas that are not necessarily wrong, but controversial which is why people don't want to look at it with an open mind. Its easy to call it pathetic or misogynistic then to actually choose to read up on it.


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## Paradox1987 (Oct 9, 2010)

I don't see how people can compare this man to Casanova. Don't get me wrong, I'm no PUA nor am I a Casanova. However, it is obvious that Casanova at least loved women as _people._ He doesn't rank them on a numerical scale, he doesn't refer to people as "pivots", he admits that he manipulates tenderly, but he even did that with charm. The "Mystery" method as I understand it is to "take control", and yet this is the direct opposite of the Casanova system: "I do not conquer, I submit."

Either way, I can get the appeal of Casanova, I don't see the appeal of either using or being subjected to the Mystery approach.


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

Torai said:


> Outcome independence is one. Statements of interest/intent is another. The theme of being gutsy enough to say whatever you want to is yet another. Kino escalation is a good one. The thing about PUA is that the advice is more pinpointed and tailored to the reader's desire. Which is not necessarily sex at all costs.


If you think you can only learn about these things in PUA then you are just horribly socially stunted and I don't really know what to say. "Outcome independence," which a normal person just calls not freaking the hell out if someone doesn't like you, or "statements of invent," which a normal person just calls being honest with someone else, are not difficult concepts to understand and don't require buying into some goofy ideology based around treating women like sex slot machines.


Torai said:


> PUA teaches these men to be more direct and upfront about what they want, and it even coincides with feminism when they talk about nice guys. Heck, both agree that if nice guys would be upfront and not be so melodramatic when they don't get what they want, that the world would be so much better.


You _really_ do not understand the problem feminists have with "nice guys" if you think PUA and feminists agree on this at all.


Torai said:


> But most are willing to give up. That is, prioritize the woman's feelings over the sex if they believe she's not comfortable enough to engage in sexual contact and its unchangeable. Therefore, they do prioritize the woman's comfort in a way.


So they prioritize women's comfort by not physically forcing them into sex, though they have no problem trying to cajole and coerce verbally or psychologically? How noble, someone give these guys a medal.


Torai said:


> To be dishonest of the fact that you want sex is more reprehensible, in my opinion.


You can be honest about wanting to have sex while also putting your partner's comfort and happiness first. I'm starting to wonder how much of what you're saying here is projecting your own insecurities.


Torai said:


> Again, nothing wrong with talking someone into sex that they would fully and enthusiastically consent to. I don't see the big issue. Both people are happy.


I don't think someone who hears "I don't feel like having sex tonight, can we just cuddle instead?" and immediately thinks of it as "last minute resistance" and starts hatching a plot on how to get sex anyway is interested first and foremost in making their partner happy. This kind of thinking can only lead to bad things in relationships.


Torai said:


> She didn't say that feminism was about enthusiastic consent. She said that enthusiastic consent was something that feminists generally believed, and something that she also probably believes. The only way to clearly communicate enthusiastic consent is nothing short of verbal communication, whether long before the act or during.


"Something she also probably believes?" You don't even know! I'm just going to drop this because you are so horribly uneducated on the concepts being discussed here that you don't even understand why I say her "verbal vs nonverbal communication" dichotomy makes no sense.


Torai said:


> That usually means there's something good about the crappy things that people miss.


"If someone avidly defends something, there must be something good about it and it must be worth defending." I cannot believe this is being passed off as an argument.


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

Chipps said:


> Sociopath? Lol, really? He might be sad and a bit creepy but surely sociopath is pushing it dont you think?


No.


Chipps said:


> Sociopath. Frustrated Losers. Deceitful. Manipulative. Yea, okay. Lets say all of that is true without a shadow of a doubt. Thats pretty fucked up. I wonder how fucked up a whole lot of women would have to be to play into and feed their bullshit. I wonder how fucked up society has to be to give him money and fame and I wonder how fucked up everyone here has to be to _still _be discussing these PUAs. Surely there have been no reports of PUAs clubbing women over the head and dragging them back to their caves to have sex with them. So yes, he _gets laid_. He had a problem and he solved it. In doing so it made him rich and famous. Hes a poor pathetic loser that had to lie to get women to sleep with him and yet so many women to this day will line up to fuck him. And yet so many people take time out of their days to discuss him and his pathetic little life and. Like I said, Mystery is not the only fool here.


Yeah man good point, some people don't hate absolute scumbags like Mystery and he has a lot of money and sex so he's actually really cool, and people who find people like him distasteful are dumber than he is because they have less money and less sex. I guess I'll stop saying bad things about your hero now.


Chipps said:


> You're right. Most people haven't explored this topic deep enough and yet everyone here has an opinion on what they _think_ they know about the whole issue. *The first time I every heard about PUA, game etc. I did a google search of it and ended up spending months reading dozens of different blogs and thousands of comments etc. *


Oh okay, I think I found your problem and the main point of contention. Most people find out about PUA and immediately either recoil in disgust and/or break down into hysterical laughter, because there is something inherently gross about their world view and it is also humorous to most people, in light of the fact that the majority of people capable of healthy socialization can easily spot the absurdity of trying to "game" relationships with people. You seem to lack either the cognitive abilities or the social aptitude to realize why they are ridiculous.


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## Erbse (Oct 15, 2010)

This is the yet the wisest scrap of a post I've ever read concerning the argument going on here; and surprisingly, the most accurate, too.

http://personalitycafe.com/entj-forum-executives/125708-pick-up-industry.html#post3177683


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

Shahada said:


> Most people find out about PUA and immediately either recoil in disgust and/or break down into hysterical laughter, because there is something inherently gross about their world view and it is also humorous to most people, in light of the fact that the majority of people capable of healthy socialization can easily spot the absurdity of trying to "game" relationships with people. You seem to lack either the cognitive abilities or the social aptitude to realize why they are ridiculous.


PUA does what it's intended to do. It's a mindset developed by status-conscious people who desire women in order to boost their self esteem. Low self esteem and objectification of women come together, they create a game with higher rates of success after practice and they become better and better at doing what they sought out to do, bed manipulable women for their own sense of status. 

I have, at times, tried to warn girls about the manipulation only to have girls get defensive and throw it back in my face. For example, a friend of mine started dating a guy who called her "Ugwug" and posted disparaging comments about her being ugly on her facebook. I warned her. . . she freaked out on me and told me it was just a joke. 

Since then, I have decided that if a girl cannot see through the bullshit herself, I will make zero attempt to warn her. Her relationship. Her responsibility. 

Also, not everyone is closed off to philosophies they disagree with, even to empathize with a different POV. I watch Fox News. I read C.S. Lewis. There's value in that.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

Shahada said:


> If you think you can only learn about these things in PUA then you are just horribly socially stunted and I don't really know what to say. "Outcome independence," which a normal person just calls not freaking the hell out if someone doesn't like you, or "statements of invent," which a normal person just calls being honest with someone else, are not difficult concepts to understand and don't require buying into some goofy ideology based around treating women like sex slot machines. You _really_ do not understand the problem feminists have with "nice guys" if you think PUA and feminists agree on this at all.So they prioritize women's comfort by not physically forcing them into sex, though they have no problem trying to cajole and coerce verbally or psychologically? How noble, someone give these guys a medal.You can be honest about wanting to have sex while also putting your partner's comfort and happiness first. I'm starting to wonder how much of what you're saying here is projecting your own insecurities. I don't think someone who hears "I don't feel like having sex tonight, can we just cuddle instead?" and immediately thinks of it as "last minute resistance" and starts hatching a plot on how to get sex anyway is interested first and foremost in making their partner happy. This kind of thinking can only lead to bad things in relationships."Something she also probably believes?" You don't even know! I'm just going to drop this because you are so horribly uneducated on the concepts being discussed here that you don't even understand why I say her "verbal vs nonverbal communication" dichotomy makes no sense. "If someone avidly defends something, there must be something good about it and it must be worth defending." I cannot believe this is being passed off as an argument.


You're right about everything and omniscient. Are you happy now? :dry:

I explicitly said I wanted to disengage a few posts ago. I would like you to respect that.


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## dottywine (Feb 7, 2011)

I could go for Mystery. I had a thing for tall lanky white guys. And the conversation would be so intriguing to me.

P.S. I found out about PUA when I was 16. I did not recoil in disgust or laugh. I found it FASCINATINGGGGGGG and kept studying it ever since. I am a woman. PUA began out of men's frustration in not being able to have sex. They learn techniques to boost their confidence (its not that they just pick up every woman... its that they don't fear rejection anymore and have less awkward moments). Then it turns into a personal development thing that men can relate to. I love it and hope more men get into it with a positive attitude. Self-help is not just for women!

P.S.S. Nm, the hate comments about PUA make no sense. There are men who have no interest in PUA because they are naturally charming and attractive in conversation. So if an awkward man wants to learn these skills that he doesn't have naturally, he's suddenly a manipulator? A psychological manipulator?


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## Snakecharmer (Oct 26, 2010)

adverseaffects said:


> snake charmer.


You called?


:laughing:

I'd never fall for that guy's (or anyone's) pick up tricks. I'd have a lot of fun watching them backfire on him. It would be very entertaining - for me.


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

dottywine said:


> I could go for Mystery. I had a thing for tall lanky white guys. And the conversation would be so intriguing to me.
> 
> P.S. I found out about PUA when I was 16. I did not recoil in disgust or laugh. I found it FASCINATINGGGGGGG and kept studying it ever since. I am a woman. PUA began out of men's frustration in not being able to have sex. They learn techniques to boost their confidence (its not that they just pick up every woman... its that they don't fear rejection anymore and have less awkward moments). Then it turns into a personal development thing that men can relate to. I love it and hope more men get into it with a positive attitude. Self-help is not just for women!
> 
> P.S.S. Nm, the hate comments about PUA make no sense. There are men who have no interest in PUA because they are naturally charming and attractive in conversation. So if an awkward man wants to learn these skills that he doesn't have naturally, he's suddenly a manipulator? A psychological manipulator?


we've got a live one folks


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

@Shahada

You really have no idea what PUA actually is do you? Do you and everyone else here honestly believe that all it is, is a bunch of losers who cant get with women that go to seminars in order to "l_and hot chicks...maaaan_"?

Okay, when it originally came around it was taught like that and some of it still is. However, a lot of it has evolved past that point and has turned into nothing more than relationship advice for men. Its more like: Get in shape, eat better, start socializing more often, find something you like and become more confident in it because that confidence will translate to other parts of your life, stop treating women like they are the end all be all of your life, if you fail with one girl dont let it hurt your self esteem and move on because there will always be another, women like men that are confident in themselves etc etc.

Yes, i see the ridiculousness of all of that.

One could say that all of that is obvious, but you'd be surprised how many men have absolutely no idea what to when it comes to being attractive to women.

Just because some guys use this to get laid and play women doesn't mean that all of them do. To make such a generalization makes you and everyone else here look ignorant. If I said that all religious people are crazed fanatics you'd all be bitching, if I said that all promiscuous people have low selfesteem/worth you'd all be crying and yet so many people sit here and call _all _men that learn PUA and game losers and no one bats an eye lash. 

Give me a fucking break.


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