# Messaging the Enneagram to the Public



## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

I had prepared a pretty fired up rant on the Controversial Opinions thread not long ago on how fed up I am with the current status quo of online typing, with the questionnaires, type me threads, and so on. 

But thinking about that more fairly, I realized that it's really not evident to a lot of people first coming to the theory that there is a broad, generalist approach and a more specific, self-development centric one, the latter requiring a lot more reading and reflection than just a questionnaire. And, that a lot of people are simply more interested in the former than the latter, because it is more pleasurable to them. 

It has sort of dawned on me that some people take the enneagram very seriously, and others like it just as a light hobby and way of meeting people. Where are you on this spectrum? 

For my time on this forum, I don't recall us ever having a dedicated discussion to how we think the Enneagram should be messaged to the outside world. What do you think of this? Should the Enneagram be messaged more as a simplified, broad system where you pick a type and see which one fits your personality (like MBTI)? Or should it take a more academic tone, urging newcomers to really read up on authors and understand the more technical side of the theory? Do we really need things like Passion, Virtue, Holy Idea, etc to get anything out of the Enneagram, and if so what? Can both of these approaches co-exist, and if so, how? 


Interested to hear everyone's thoughts.


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## Brains (Jul 22, 2015)

Hardcore obsessive hobbyist very much in the "too serious" camp ^^'


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## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

I think this has been talked about, somewhat. A lot of websites and other popular sources have the problem of conveying the Enneagram as this cute little system of labels, and forgetting about the central core of it, which is self-development. I think a lot of people on this forum are guilty of that attitude as well. I think tritype theory is a sign of that. 

I also get fed up with "type me" threads (although I never cared to look at them in the first place), because typing based off of words written on a screen seems impossible. I need to see the person and spend some time with them. 

In general, I also think people are far too liberal about typing others (both with MBTI and Enneagram). To think you could go around and just type people left and right... (this is how some people talk about it). Typing someone should be an in-depth process. Not just a snap judgement. This especially comes up concerning NF-types... because we think we're so good at reading people... but it also becomes especially ironic. When you make a snap judgement, you give up the chance to actually use your powers of intuition to get to know the person. Trying to emphasize how good you are reading people _quickly_ actually ends up undermining your greatest strength.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

I've been just about everything you mention in the OP. From the total newbie parroting everything better-read people have spouted, to the seeker on a private journey, to the person who's read just about everything and is incredibly annoying about it.

I suppose it's a matter of prerogative. I'm personally big on "do the readings" because I spent years totally lost, assuming others knew more than me, misleading people with my own mistypes and being misled, and the only thing that helped me was stepping away from "pop" enneagram and doing my own readings and inner work. I fully confess, that might not help everyone.

Some people don't really need to go that deep--plenty of people find their type easily and just like talking about it as a hobby. (I'm this way with MBTI/JCF--I didn't need to do many readings because I found my type fairly quickly and am able to base my understandings of the material on myself). So I can't say I have any problem with this. 

What I do find problematic--and I think this is unavoidable when something as complex as enneagram is publicly discussed--is that it gets simplified according to one person's understanding, and the conversation gradually moves away from building one's own understanding to tropes and buzzwords and stereotypes. And people internalizing weird things that people normally don't ("I'm such an intense tortured souuuul and I dance with my emotions!!") based on this type of phrasing. I don't know what to do about it--I'm simply noting the phenomenon.

As to the "higher ideas" like Passions, Soul Children, etc...I mean, I guess those concepts will work for some people. I enjoy considering things from new perspectives, so I'm happy for the information. I personally am growing very fond of Maitri's Soul Child ideas. But other people will just find it dumb and stupid. And honestly, there shouldn't be any agreement on these matters--I find that everyone builds their own understanding (of enneagram, of reality, of whatever) and thus what works for one person might not work for another. What is it they say? "If everyone's thinking the same, someone's not thinking".

I don't think there is any one "right" thing to do in this case--it's just a matter of perspective. Perhaps the best thing to do is simply to remind people that there are a variety of levels and approaches and it is wise to keep an open mind. Sure, it can be frustrating sometimes after telling people for the umpteenth time that Type X does NOT always do A, B, or C. But unless we want to establish separate forums for different concepts or levels of understanding (extremely fraught), I don't think we have any alternative. It's kind of an unsolvable question. I just try to reach out to individuals when they ask--you can't always change the world, but you can help people along their own path.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

For me it's more fun than anything. Bit of a guilty pleasure in a way. I don't take it too seriously and sometimes I don't really like it; it's something to do with my time at least and it's interesting, but...idk


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## Gorgon (Feb 16, 2015)

Figure said:


> Where are you on this spectrum?


I ranged from buzzword spouting newb (hey gotta start somewhere) to casual hobby (other subjects beside typology took up the bulk of my intellectual interest) to taking it a little more seriously. It was when I delved deeper into the enneagram, which included doing the reading and _productive_ self-reflection wherein I really started questioning how I viewed myself and others, and bringing to light biases, defense mechanisms, heuristics, and other automatic and ingrained behaviors that I had, I actually found it had personal significance and value to me than when I approached it as a casual hobby. Of course, that still doesn't preclude me from engaging in the fluffier and stupider parts of the enneagram forum.



> For my time on this forum, I don't recall us ever having a dedicated discussion to how we think the Enneagram should be messaged to the outside world. What do you think of this? Should the Enneagram be messaged more as a simplified, broad system where you pick a type and see which one fits your personality (like MBTI)? Or should it take a more academic tone, urging newcomers to really read up on authors and understand the more technical side of the theory? Do we really need things like Passion, Virtue, Holy Idea, etc to get anything out of the Enneagram, and if so what? Can both of these approaches co-exist, and if so, how?


Compared to MBTI, enneagram has a steeper learning curve so yeah, when trying to present it to a wider audience, there is a serious conflict between preserving the intricacies that form the bedrock of the theory and watering it down so much that it resembles a cheap replica of itself. There is a way to make it more digestible while also preserving the integrity of the theory. I think you can simplify and condense it while having the core ideas and principles be implicitly expressed. But ultimately there's really no one way (or easy way) to approach it. 

As for questionnaires and type me threads, I can take it or leave it. While they're not sufficient in accurately typing someone, they can point towards something and could potentially be a springboard for more in depth self-reflection and further exploration of the enneagram itself. But of course, that's dependent on the intentions and goals of the typee.


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## Shadow Tag (Jan 11, 2014)

Figure said:


> It has sort of dawned on me that some people take the enneagram very seriously, and others like it just as a light hobby and way of meeting people. Where are you on this spectrum?


I'm not as obsessive as other people, but I do take it pretty seriously and want to have a good working knowledge of what different types do, instead of strictly how they describe themselves and their motivations. Some (aka a lot) of the time, people aren't really in tune with their core motivations consciously. So I want to understand how a type vibes, how they speak, etc. I'd say that's a tad obsessive.  



> For my time on this forum, I don't recall us ever having a dedicated discussion to how we think the Enneagram should be messaged to the outside world. What do you think of this? Should the Enneagram be messaged more as a simplified, broad system where you pick a type and see which one fits your personality (like MBTI)? Or should it take a more academic tone, urging newcomers to really read up on authors and understand the more technical side of the theory?


I think that it's useful to have broad, almost stereotypical categories. Being somewhat self-aware is always a good thing. It's the same thing with MBTI dichotomies. They're useful, even if they aren't necessarily "deep." But they can be a gateway into Jungian functions, which does provide more depth. If people want to jump down the rabbit hole with motivations and all that, they're welcome to.

The academic route is usually better, but it can actually be worse, depending on who you read. Off the top of my head, I don't think many more "big" theorists than Naranjo, R&H, and Condon are really necessary at this point. And while the others (except Maitri, I find her views on the Enneagram to be misleading and her descriptions lacking) are fine enough, the Enneagram becomes needlessly messy, and types start to blend together. If people can go the academic route and KISS, then that'd be best. 



> Do we really need things like Passion, Virtue, Holy Idea, etc to get anything out of the Enneagram, and if so what? Can both of these approaches co-exist, and if so, how?


I don't think that they need to be stated everywhere, as long as type descriptions and the more generalist theory takes them into account in a more implicit way. No matter my type, I've never consciously related to these concepts, and I don't look for them in others because they need context within someone's ideas, expression, behavior, thought process, etc. And good type descriptions do that.


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## Shadow Tag (Jan 11, 2014)

double post :hampster:


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## brightflashes (Oct 27, 2015)

It's about the middle for me. It's hard to take it really hard-core seriously because it wasn't developed in a way that I consider scientific. The different types aren't measurable the way that MBTI is. The presence or absence of each trait in the MBTI can be measured, but the enneagram - which I consider more a spiritual model - isn't as easy to quantify because it wasn't developed with the goal to quantify in mind.

The Enneagram is an extremely good tool for personal use: self development, self analysis, etc...
It's not a very good tool for criminal profiling or for determining interactions in the workplace - at least not to the point in which Psychologists in the United States find valid. My personal opinion of it won't matter if the tools I need for my work aren't reliable enough for the standards set by the people who are funding my research.

So, I might take Enneagram somewhat seriously for personal reasons, but not take it seriously at all for metrics. 

I share in your frustrations with the way Enneagram is perceived here on the forum. The most absurd one that I've found is this sort of attitude that some enneatypes or somehow "better" than others. It's a bit confusing. I'm very interested in your rant, though. So regardless of how seriously I take the Enneagram personally, I would still be interested in the analysis anyone could provide about it.

Messaging to the public isn't my forte, but secondary sources seem like the best way to start. Too many laymen spread misinformation loaded with bias and subjectivity and that messes with people's understanding.

Sorry if this is a bit rambly - I'm not up to editing my writing much today.


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## tangosthenes (Oct 29, 2011)

Both can coexist, but the academic types have to learn to condense their meaning and stop writing walls of text. Express principles clearly, leave reasoning and examples out. Imply the reasoning in what's expressed. Essentially, do what the casual people are asking for and take as much work out of it as possible, while leaving the message intact. Think pithy but non-contrarian. What to do about the endless proliferation of ideas from casuals, I'm not sure. Needs a culture change to form strong bulwarks, but some people will always get in your way here.


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

I started as a n00b, and it took a while to understand the deeper concepts as it can be difficult at first to filter the surface ideas from the mechanisms that are caused by a core type. I don't mind people using it for fun as I lacked the time to check it in depth thanks to chemistry hell, but taking a break from it and being forced to face my issues made me realize how useful it is for introspecting.

However, I prefer the more academic part if I want to really use this tool at full power, as there are many authors that have different takes of the types and they also get updated years later. I like a lot Maitri's approach, as it adds concepts that aren't explained too well in other books.

Another point is that your MBTI/sociotype will alter how your own core manifests, so it's another point that should be taken into account if you want to find your core. Many behaviors can overlap as well, so it can take years to get a clear idea. 

Now about questionnaires, I guess that they can be a starting point, otherwise they're nothing more than a snapshot of someone's ideas during that time. The only serious typings that I've tried have done with friends as I interact with them more.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

IMO, thinking about the Enneagram types in academic terms is a mistake (I'm not talking about reading books but about debating concepts). There's simply not enough clarity in the system to do that. It's first and foremost an _interpretative _system. You CANNOT take any of the labels and concepts literally (i.e., look up their definition in a dictionary or any academic reference). Words such as envy, avarice, gluttony, etc. have to be reinterpreted in terms of a person's experience before they offer anything useful and accurate. The descriptions are often hit or miss as to whether people identify with them or not (depending upon which description or combination of descriptions you read). The types are gradually understood and clarified as you explore the actual experience of people living from a given type, NOT by debating a bunch of words and quotes from books or quotes from famous individuals taken out of any context.

It's hearing about someone describe the experience of their type that I find useful on this forum (if the person has typed themselves correctly - which can sometimes be a big if). Once in a while I like to try to offer some clarity to a discussion if I think it might be useful to the discussion.

Until someone comes along to offer more clarity on the system, people learning about the types will have to stumble through just like everyone before them or seek out some professional training to shorten the learning curve. I just hope that they realize they WILL get it wrong time and again (even the authors and so-called experts still get it wrong). I also hope they hold onto a healthy sense of doubt about their understanding of the types and their ability to type others (and perhaps even themselves).


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

Figure said:


> It has sort of dawned on me that some people take the enneagram very seriously, and others like it just as a light hobby and way of meeting people. Where are you on this spectrum?


 A min-maxer in single-player games. The Persona video game series is influenced by Jungian psychology, Tarot, mythology, etc etc... and also the enneagram! As proof, here's a screenshot from Persona 3.










Persona 5 (where the final dungeon is humanity's collective bystander effect that allows injustices to perpetuate in society... or "sloth") took me 120 hours for the first playthrough, and that's not "light". So I find it a medium-weight hobby (I'm just going to average in those books that don't take 120 hours each) that provides a decent framework for enjoying art, learning about other people, and learn more about me in my reactions to them.



> For my time on this forum, I don't recall us ever having a dedicated discussion to how we think the Enneagram should be messaged to the outside world. What do you think of this?


 With cultural sensitivity. It's one of those topics I often soapbox about, but today, I can actually find a citation to support my assertion!



Susan Rhodes said:


> T*he dominant type of a culture will obviously have a big effect on how each of the nine types and its subtypes are perceived within that culture.* I became pointedly aware of this factor when trying to find examples of films featuring the 27 subtypes. It turns out that some subtype themes are easy to find (SX Sevens) while others are not so easy (SP Fours). I also found that some subtypes were treated more even-handedly or realistically than others: it was easy to find films in which SP Threes businessmen were portrayed as greedy crooks, but not so easy to find businessmen portrayals that were genuinely positive. So before plunging into an in-depth look at the subtypes, I'd like to take a quick look at how American culture seems to affect the way that different subtype themes are handled in films and on TV.





> Should the Enneagram be messaged more as a simplified, broad system where you pick a type and see which one fits your personality (like MBTI)? Or should it take a more academic tone, urging newcomers to really read up on authors and understand the more technical side of the theory?


 For starters, if the commonly cited reference materials could be updated... that would be great...

But I'd like to know more about how enneatypes come off in different cultures, because every culture has their own cultural values that people take for granted. It makes no sense to view people and their actions in a context-less vacuum and expect to be able to determine their own type. 

For example, I would expect East Asian cultures to have a heavier emphasis on surface image and value. Even the understanding of where you fit in society is built into their language, in the relationship-specific terminology or honorifics used to address others. I would even expect non-image types from those cultures to be biased towards the image center. Furthermore, "the nail that sticks out gets hammered down".

Alternatively, eights from a conformist, collectivist culture will come off very differently than eights from an individualistic culture. Social hierarchy, social standing, self-sacrificing, and pride are very important values in East Asian cultures. If you're a young eight, it will be made very clear to you anyone and everyone older than you can "put you in your place" and render you absolutely powerless. In other words, in comparison to western cultures, an East Asian eight will probably have a stronger two connection.

Oh, and sixes and fear. It's one thing to fear for your own life, it's another when you fear for the lives of people you care about. Courage is a lot more difficult to come across when anything you do wrong not only gets you in trouble, but gets your _entire family_ in trouble.

And I'm going to jump another gun here: sixes who are _literate_ will come off very differently from sixes who are functionally illiterate. Why am I mentioning this? Because the generation above me are survivors of some civil wars, and wars tend to inhibit personal growth. Being able to read opens up a whole new avenue of resources that can be used to ease fear and uncertainty, but if reading is very difficult, then sixes kind of have to rely on socially-credentialed-authorities (like doctors + "everyone makes mistakes") or gossip for knowledge.



> Do we really need things like Passion, Virtue, Holy Idea, etc to get anything out of the Enneagram, and if so what? Can both of these approaches co-exist, and if so, how?


 The vices/virtues and holy ideas are like the "cherry on top". People will have individuated experiences and expressions of the _higher_ heart and head centers. What's been written so far are only a few ways to experience unity/infinity, but those are not the only ways possible. And by that point, you can get those experiences from other sources...


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## Eclipsed (Jun 3, 2012)

> It has sort of dawned on me that some people take the enneagram very seriously, and others like it just as a light hobby and way of meeting people. Where are you on this spectrum?


I was always essentially only interested in learning about my own type rather than typing others, although I did partake in that casually. There was a time when enneagram was very much on my mind, and I would interpret myself and others more through types rather than as human beings as I tried to make sense of the system, but now I think I've settled down nicely. I don't see myself as a seven, honestly, though I acknowledge that is what I am and it fits very well. So, I don't take it very seriously but I also don't view it as a hobby. More like, an alternate perspective when I need it.

As for communicating the enneagram to the world... I'm not interested, honestly. The world has enough labels as it is. I think, to really _get_ it and form one's own interpretation of it, you have to submerge yourself into the literature, culture, and way of thinking. Not many people would want to, since it's much easier to take a quiz at face value. I essentially view beginning to navigate the system as walking through a maze, and honestly, I think it's a fun experience. The system itself, imo, is not as useful as seeing yourself through different lenses, having personal discussions with other people, and simply looking into and learning about yourself in the unique way that enneagram lets you.

So, would it be great if all of it were laid out clearly and succinctly? Perhaps, but those who are interested in the system will stick with it anyway and obtain something of value. That will take time, regardless. I don't think that should discourage anyone from trying to express the concepts better, but things are still okay as they are.


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## brightflashes (Oct 27, 2015)

cir said:


> For starters, if the commonly cited reference materials could be updated... that would be great...


This might be a good start. However, thinking about references to Enneagram philosophy ... they're only going to be valid up to a certain level of accountability and professionalism. While the enneagram isn't any less useful because of it, it hasn't be subjected to study and the lack of study is what makes updating references a challenge. 

I don't say this to mean that there isn't more valuable information out there, but just to point out that the scientific quality of the references and material used to describe the enneagram probably has an affect on the level of critical thinking people use when examining it.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

brightflashes said:


> This might be a good start.


 The secret to happiness is low expectations.



> However, thinking about references to Enneagram philosophy ...


 Have you ever read Ouspensky's "In Search of the Miraculous"? There are a lot of chemistry metaphors being used to illustrate scales of life, and while I feel like I got a usable gist from it, excuse me if I find pre-WW1 (and pre-WW2 and pre-atomic bombs) metaphors about chemistry to be automatically suspect.



> they're only going to be valid up to a certain level of accountability and professionalism.


 Right. What's the problem? 

If you're looking for "accountability and professionalism", then perhaps the enneagram *isn't* the appropriate solution. The enneagram _shouldn't_ have to be burdened with these kinds of expectations.



> While the enneagram isn't any less useful because of it, *it hasn't be subjected to study* and the lack of study is what makes updating references a challenge.



Any descriptions I read are implicitly biased in perspectives towards the English-speaking world! How about _broadening_, expanding in number to account for variations, the descriptions each types can manifest as? Including, say, cultural descriptors for reference?
And therefore, I'd posit that one of the biggest challenges is the lack of fully-literate multi-lingual people who also understands enneagram theory.
Why did you respond to my post, which was explicitly about _subjective_ experiences (in terms of art or cultural understanding), with something about the rigors of science?
Is "social science" a type of science for you?
What are you looking for in this study? Because if you're looking for the answer to the question "does it work"?, then the answer is going to have to be "mileages will vary". Because, ya know... no two brains and body will be wired identically alike.
If you're looking for the answer to the question "is it real"? The fact that the enneagram concept exists and enough people have found the system to be helpful and usable are enough to _make_ it real.
"But is it real?" A review of research on the Enneagram" by Anna Sutton.
Here's a random graduate thesis from Iowa State University.



> I don't say this to mean that there isn't more valuable information out there, but just to point out that the scientific quality


 Yeah, and to keep my post short, I didn't even go into the fact that cultures change over time.

If if the enneagram is a system of self-development in order to experience greater psychological freedom... What makes you think a study that's meant to bound and restrict will be adequate in capturing the _infinite_ expressions of humanity? People are not perfectly predictable robots. There will be chaos, uncertainties, and variations of expressions.



> of the references and material used to describe the enneagram probably has an affect on the level of critical thinking people use when examining it.


 Has it ever occurred to you that people need to see the value in and be motivated by critical thinking in order to be critical thinkers?

Thinking is one of those processes that gets refined over one's lifetime. If people don't want to think, then no amount of quality materials are going to force them to think.


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## brightflashes (Oct 27, 2015)

@cir 

As I said before, I see it more as a spiritual or self-help type of personality theory rather than a scientific one. Your post only got me thinking about what constitutes a resource which would be ideal to update the community references with.


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

I wish more people would emphasize the Holy Ideas. It would make the whole process of typing one's self (and others) easier. If you find and recognize yourself in the loss of your Holy Idea, then you've found your type. It's really as simple as that, but the Holy Ideas are difficult to understand for anyone new to the system. It also brings the Enneagram back to being a spiritual system rather than a psychological one, where people are emphasizing traits of their behavior. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, but it becomes difficult to find yourself if you're only looking at how you behave, which can change a lot depending on the context and circumstances. One's Enneagram type is so innate to you, but it is also not the truth of one's being, which people forget too. You are not your type, or rather, personality. This is why I find the Enneagram so much more powerful and valuable than MBTI because it is concerned with the Soul. Though, I will say the Enneagram is not without its limitations and pitfalls, as well, especially if one takes it all _too_ seriously.


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## brightflashes (Oct 27, 2015)

mistakenforstranger said:


> I wish more people would emphasize the Holy Ideas. It would make the whole process of typing one's self (and others) easier.


I absolutely agree. However, it seems like it's human nature to look for complexity in systems that are at face value, pretty simple. I have found for myself and others, once a holy idea is identified, it's this undeniable truth. I have found with Enneagram more than any other personality theory, that when one is typed accurately, the truth hits and it hits hard.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

mistakenforstranger said:


> I wish more people would emphasize the Holy Ideas. It would make the whole process of typing one's self (and others) easier. If you find and recognize yourself in the loss of your Holy Idea, then you've found your type. It's really as simple as that, but the Holy Ideas are difficult to understand for anyone new to the system.


The problem I have with that is the Holy Idea is the most vague and open to interpretation concept of the system.

Building on that though according to Ichazo, who came up with the holy ideas and such, the holy idea is the remedy for the fixation and the trap is the false remedy that keeps you stuck in ego (or personality). Maybe the traps would be more easily seen in terms of personality. Two of them are already commonly used as labels (1 - Perfection and 5 - Observer).



The problem is two of them have never made sense to me (9 - Seeker and 2 - Freedom) and 7 - Idealism would need more exploration as to what it means and how well it fits.


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