# Can you help XSXX with your knowledge?



## Agniete (Jun 8, 2015)

Hello 

I am pretty sure I take things at face value, would not like to live thinking abstractly, do not see the world from abstract ideas, so I use some kind of S function. Believe me, I read a lot of matterial, went round and round thinking what my type is, what I do and how I think naturaly, but there is just too much possibilities, evidence. Maybe I alone do not see something, some patern of cognition, so I ask you if you can help me? I am open to all of discusions and information.

Here is my questionare information.


SCENARIO 1

FOCUS ON YOUR FEELING PROCESS HERE

Your significant other just ended your 2 year relationship quite suddenly and with no apparent explanation. Up until this point you had both been talking about marriage and last week you even went to look at rings together. Now he/she won't even return your phone calls or texts. After talking with his/her family you find out that he/she has just been diagnosed with terminal stage 4 cancer.

- Describe how this scenario would make you feel as well as what sort of influences and motivations lie behind those feelings. Why do you feel the way you do?

- In this scenario what would you honestly say the primary focus of your feelings would be?

At first I would feel like the door slapped in front of me. I do not understand, but I would not fight it, if he feels this way and wants this... I would go away without telling a word, broken hearted. I would not think, analyse at first. I would try to do something to ceep my attention from what happened, and then I guess one day the vawe of feelings and whys would flow over me. After I have find out that he might be dying, I would call him, tell that I know hes’ not feeling right. There’s no more talking about love, he ended that because for somethings he could not bare it anymore, so I would sugest that we might meet as friends. I would not feel good and righteous to fight for love, to say that I love him, want him back. Somehow he feels this is not what he wants, and I have no right to make it other way. But maybe I can be his friend, supporting and listening, understanding, without no hard feelings

SCENARIO 2 

FOCUS ON YOUR FEELING PROCESS HERE

You are in college and this semester both you and your roommate end up in the same class together. You and your roommate get along fairly well and the living situation works but you aren't particularly close. You both typically do your own thing and are rather indifferent to each other. As the semester progresses you excel and become one of the top students in the class whereas your roommate is struggling significantly to grasp the material. The professor assigns a fairly challenging take home test that is a significant portion of your grade. He/she makes it clear that while it is open book, students are to work alone. Later your roommate comes to you begging for help after struggling with the test most of the weekend. You have already completed the assignment and he/she isn't asking to copy your answers, just to help tutor and mentor them as they struggle to complete the test, so there is no way your professor would ever know. However, this is the first time your room-mate has asked you for help this semester. He/she makes it clear that how they do on this test could mean the difference between passing and failing this class.

- How do you respond to your roommate’s request and why?

- What sort of things in this scenario stand out to you as far as having a strong influence on your decision making and why?

- Describe the flow of your decision making process

Yay, I have somebody to be in class together and talk, joke around and smile.

Professor will never know the truth, and my roommate really needs help. Especially if this test is so important! I have to admit, right away I can not see why I should not help. Yes, maybe it will be a little bit awkward communicating with that person, trying to tutor her/him when we are not that close, but we will manage, communicating is not the important thing when you need to do assignment. Look, maybe professors lessons are not in the style my roommate can learn from, maybe we, having some more time than one lesson, can grasp the material better. I had an IT teacher who were lazy, wanted us to grasp the thing quickly and did not really told what to do. There were children who was good at this class, and I had my moments, but there was the time with some 0,1,2. I missed some classes, I could not grasp how this works, what pattern, logic is under this, and he didn’t really bothered, even if he had time. To him, it was really simple, and he could not see how I did not see it. Glad we turned to Microsoft after some time. I hate when people you ask just looks at you and roles their eyes, like the whole Universe understands and you have something wrong with yourself.

SCENARIO 3

FOCUS ON YOUR LOGIC AND THINKING PROCESS HERE

Your boss calls you into his/her office in order to assign you to a new project. He/she gives you a choice between two.

Project 1 is a rather broad, expansive project covering multiple areas of company operations. It has the potential to have a very significant impact on company operations but it would require a collective effort and an extensive amount of group work where you would be logically thinking through the project together with the group of individuals your boss has also assigned to it.

Project 2 has a much more specific and narrow focus and would require a significant amount of in depth individual analysis to work through the problem. You would be working alone and the completion of the project may or may not have much impact on company operations. However, after complete the process and problem you were working on will be streamlined and fundamentally understood.

- Which project appeals to you the most, as it relates to the way you prefer to logically process information? Why?

- What sort of things in this scenario, across either project, stood out to you as having a strong influence on your decision? Why? 

I imagine that the project 1 is too big, too much responsibility, too much chaos involving people, also not that good at logical asignments. This one would give me a lot of stress, so I would prefer the second one. I love that project 2 has specific and narrow focus, that would let me to really get into what I do, touch more themes than when there is too much to do and think about. 

I like to have information, search for it constantly, but it needs to be on one specific topic, no matter how broad it can be, it has to end on one place always. I don’t really like to speculate, search for endless ends, but I can see those. Objectively there is too much possible options, so if I can, I would love to consciously speculate in the smallest territory. 

I have no intention to have such an impact to company’s future, such a responsibility. This project would be calmer, I could get deeper in my work theme. I would want to have some people to talk about this project, to have comments, to consult, select information, to get some ideas, other points of views, that way I could feel stronger in my judgments, I would be more confidence because I would be afraid that I have not seen some information, made mistakes or miss some. But in general I would prefer to make everything else alone. I don't want anybody else interfere my work, my flow, my organization. I am the best to know my work, to make it work, to organize. I am well aware how in a group not only people, but also the job, the information can go wrong. I would want to have everything in my hands. I don't want pressure from group members or make decisions according to other people.

SCENARIO 4

FOCUS ON YOUR LOGIC AND THINKING PROCESS HERE

Your college professor has assigned you to a group project with 3 other individuals. All 3 of these individuals have a good strong work ethic and desire to contribute to the overall success of this project. You are at the first meeting of your group and the other members are tossing around valuable ideas as to the nature and direction of this project.

- Describe your behavior in this situation as you process and think about the ideas they are presenting.

- Describe what major influences drive this behavior.

Oh, how I hate group projects for classes. I used to avoid these as much as I could. I hate to do work with others. I love to communicate, to talk, to discus, but having to do something with others? I am awkward, have a lazy mind, not good at pulling ideas from nowhere, working with people. I would prefer to do job alone. At least then I could say to myself I did what I did, especially if I did not liked the assignment. 

You know, everything always depends on people. Sometimes somehow it’s always people you can not stand each other, see as dumb, don’t want to have anything to do with. Or maybe it’s always just me . The most important thing is to make everything work, to make a project and not to show how cool are you to think the best idea, so I really would love to see ideas and not prides. We have to think of the best idea that we can make without forgetting to not be rude.

I would also give ideas, but if there would be a game of prides, than it is not for me. I would just watch, listen, do my work and forget the project and the people.

SCENARIO 5

FOCUS ON THE SOURCES YOU DRAW NON-PHYSICAL ENERGY FROM HERE

It has been a very long week and you feel mentally and emotionally drained, but good news! It is Saturday and you have nothing significant that needs to be done. You FINALLY have some free time to yourself to recharge your batteries and do whatever you want.

- Describe what sort of activities would help you to recharge. What would you enjoy doing after a long week and why?

- What sort of things do you feel you draw non-physical energy from doing?

I would probably read a book or watch film or series. Sometimes I like to get lost in music, sing along with song giving myself completely to the sounds and the feelings I feel because of beautiful music. I like new stuff, new books, new films, new music, and sometimes I get disappointed because these things are not what I expected, but if they are what speaks to me, they are usually for that one occasion, never being the same good as I experience them again. Yes, I want to lose myself somewhere, because reality would not let me relax. I would want just to dive in something like in the ocean. I don't want to be a fish in it, I don't start to create a life story that could be happening there. I do not daydream things. I don't judge sharks or piranhas, I just want to dive deep and see what I can see, observe, lost myself in the life of the sea creatures.

Maybe someday I will find something better, because I kind of feel embarrassed for such a lazy mind relaxation, but I did not found it yet. At least I hate sleeping 'till noon. To me it is a waste of day, and sleep is bad. Cha cha, I would never sleep that relaxation time. I would want some mental activity, but maybe that’s the point this question is asking. I feel bad when I sleep until noon or even 10, 11 am. It’s like I am wasting time, like there’s so much to do, even if there is no list of what needs to be done, but I get to things when I see them. I see dirty dishes, and then I do them. I know that there is some better things to do, even if usually there is no. That’s why I like to sit late at night, it feels like I take this time from sleep, and we sleep and there is nothing to do, the world seems calm and harmonic, even if the dark is frightening.

This week I watched more series of Doctor Who 8 season, and I have to tell you, I haven’t felt so entertained and full of interest al long time ago. At first I thought that this Doctor will be too dark to me, and maybe this is only the beginning of something coming, but I love Doctors’ and Claras’ relationship, concentrating not on the wild adventures, but on characters, their stories. No book I have read last year was so interesting and entertaining.

SCENARIO 6

FOCUS ON THINKING VS FEELING HERE

You have a meeting with your college career counselor to discuss potential careers that interest you. He/she offers you a list of the following careers and asks you to pick your TOP 3. He/she asks you to take money out of the equation. Imagine all of these careers received equal compensation. Focus instead on where you would truly feel most happy and fulfilled.

Artist, Scientist, Actor, Engineer, Musician, Lawyer, Counselor, Entrepreneur, Teacher, Manager, Psychologist, Computer Programmer / Analyst, Clergy, Child Care, Medical Doctor

- What were your top 3 choices and what aspects of these careers appeal to you?

- Was it difficult or easy to pick only 3 and why?

- Prioritize the aspects of your career choices that influenced your decision, what things mattered most to you, where do you imagine finding the most fulfillment and why?

Well, I don’t really see anything I would choose, not really my cup of tea. But let’s try. First I would choose Medical Doctor, more specifically – a vet. I am not afraid of the learning, I would love to be able to help pets. There is no personalization with my own body (I can not see somebody being hurt, I feel like I am in their place. It’s something psychological and physical together), but I have no problem if it’s not something looking like me. There is no people skills involved, no need for social rules – pets need help, you help them, they walk away, but you know you helped them, they do not need to thank you, expect you to be the best. You just do the best you can and a bit more. I do not see the mankind as the best on this planet, we were just better in evolution, but it does not let us to forget other kinds and do bad to them because that’s what we, humankind, need for ourselves. I do not have a mind for engineering, programing, analyst. Lawyer and psychology sounds boring from what I know. I am not that carrying for child care, not enough considering others to be a teacher. So no more, I guess.

I am sorry, there is nothing more left for me to choose from. I tried to be an artist, a musician, but it was not for me, I always saw a blank space in the paper before me, no more. It was a heavy burden to me. I think other art careers will be to.

In a career I need to feel safe and secure, but also for it to show my best, not the worst, for example, bossiness. I need to find a career I was born to do, in with I would fit naturally, I do not want to create one for myself. Also, it would be good that I would not be forced to do something against my values, for example, being bartender I needed to sell alcohol early in the morning for mans who not only looked intimidating, but also drove a car. That’s against me and what I would want to let happen. Don’t forget some entertainment, interest in what I do and constant mental stimulation.

SCENARIO 7

Click on the image below and pay close attention to the things that jump out to you, objects, thoughts, feelings, impressions, ideas etc. What do you see?
http://personalitycafe.com/attachments/whats-my-personality-type/295170d1427322074-short-effective-scenario-questionnaire-2-0-self-type-paintedcanyon1fb.jpg



- Describe the main things that stand out to you in this picture.

- Why do you think/feel you focused on those things?

- Describe the strength with which this photo did or did not appeal to you and why?

The rock walls, running water, some trees. Looking at this something from my school years kicks in. Something about how the running water does the things like this over thousand of years.

I can see that there are no beautiful colours' contrast. Colours could be deeper and brighter. I would love that water colour to pop up, I really like these kinds of blues. I guess this is in America. It would be interesting to be there in reality. If I would be a photographer I could do a lot of stunning photos just with pattern and colour.

From this http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-personality-type/505602-short-effective-scenario-questionnaire-2-0-self-type.html

What is love?

Well, I have no idea what it is. I think it's a feeling, but I do not know if what I feel is love. Maybe I haven't known the real love yet. I think the most beautiful and the most being love is mature love, when people know what it is, what to do, how to act. In my romantic ideal, love is time spent just with the one you love, it is thinking about that person, how you will affect, how will he feel, how good is something for him. It's caring for that person, not only physically but also thinking about him, knowing who he is. But again, it's being together, but not depend on each other. I think people depend on each other more then they should.

Love is not songs, not art, not words, something more, bigger. I do not know, I am just speculating, and it exhaust me.


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## Agniete (Jun 8, 2015)

Guys, if you have some time, can you have a look at this? @ferroequinologist, @Kitty23, @mistakenforstranger, @Lord Fudgingsley, @Stelliferous, @Eluid Sade, @Hibiscus, @Entropic


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

It's obvious you favor Ti over Te. You would rather be alone in developing your logic, growing the strength of it over time. Te is more group-centric and dismissive of what is wrong.. No time to develop internal connections to make sense of things. Because of favoring Ti, that comes with Fe. So whatever type you are it must use Ti and Fe. 

Analyzing your description of the picture at the end: what you described was very dynamic. You saw motion and you didn't limit the picture to a specific moment in time. You saw movement in the water as it ran, and thousands of years to get to that point in time. This shows that you would prefer Si and Ne over Ni and Se. Ni and Se focuses more on the direct impact of an image, not the motion over time of leading up to an image. 

That being said, I would narrow the choices down to INTP ENTP ISFJ ESFJ. What comes next is deciding what order you think your functions are in. And, personally, I don't think the order matters too much.


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## Lord Fudgingsley (Mar 3, 2013)

Firstly, I'm honoured that I would be included in this. Secondly, I get a very Fe-Ti impression from you, and more likely Ne-Si. My gut feeling is ISFJ.

I'll try and examine this a little further and see if anything else stands out. But that's my provisional typing. I don't think you're extraverted.


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## Bitterself (Mar 14, 2015)

@Agniete Introverted, Sensing, Feeling, clear Fe/Ti, this makes you an ISFJ. Not that sure about the perceiving axis, but ISFJ is the only option left.


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Right now, I'm thinking either ESFJ, ISFJ, or even ENFJ. I think Ne and Ti are your lower functions, which would correspond with ESFJ (In this type, Ne >Ti; inferior Ti) and ISFJ (Ti > Ne; inferior Ne), so it may be helpful to look into how inferior Ne and inferior Ti manifest. These articles are long, so it may be a little overwhelming if you're new to all of this:

http://personalitycafe.com/isfj-articles/78380-recognizing-inferior-function-isfj.html
http://personalitycafe.com/esfj-articles/76787-recognizing-inferior-function-esfjs.html


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## Kitty23 (Dec 27, 2015)

Oh wow, I am honored!  

Tricky...at first I wanted to say Fe-Ti and low Ne...but then as I read on...I thought I was seeing some Fi.

How would you write a novel?

How each dominant function writes a novel:

Te: Write an outline with an estimated word count and charted plot points / progression for each subsequent chapter.

Ti: Invent a logically consistent world that makes sense from a narrative point of view, and perhaps go some way in inventing languages along the way.

Fe: Decide what emotional impact you want your novel to have, and find an appropriate way to express difficult themes without alienating the reader.

Fi: Find a theme that resonates with a deep personal belief or experience, and write it mostly for yourself.

Ne: Start writing. After a few chapters you wind up with 45 main characters and subsequent plot lines all running simultaneously. 

Ni: Spend months and even years visualizing every element of your highly conceptual story, then sit down and write it without much revision. 

Se: Emphasis is on impacting sentences and intense experiences for the reader. Sensory details are devoid of emotional sentiment.

Si: Focuses on those archetypes and themes that are significant to you, often supplemented by a vast library of reading experience. Natural sense of plot structure.

Combine these and you can see how writers tap into different functions. Something I have noticed is that N writers often incorporate description to try and ground their story or make it seem more real, whereas sensor writers usually tap into their intuitive functions to branch out into unexplored territories. Feelers might dip into thinking to structure their worlds with logic and/or explore different principles, just as thinkers might explore emotions through their writing. 

Often our lower functions are how we “play” so we access them during writing.


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

First of all, thanks for the mention--though I'm not sure I'm one to ask.  Secondly, fake scenarios are really hard to deal with for most people, because it's one thing to talk about them, and another to live them. The first on for instance...



Agniete said:


> SCENARIO 1
> 
> FOCUS ON YOUR FEELING PROCESS HERE
> 
> ...


I'm kind of doubting your answer here. Not the first half, but the second. What I'm doubting is how you will feel internally. No hard feelings? I'm guessing you haven't been in many relationships (not a bad thing), but that is just a guess.  In any case your answer seems to waver between Fe and Fi... I guess that's why I'm thinking you need to live through it to know, and hence why I think Fi is more you than Fe.  Again, a hunch, and nothing more. Unfortunately, it did color the rest of what I read, so I'm glad others responded next, because their replies helped me step back a little, but let's see if what they said changes things. ;-)



> SCENARIO 2
> 
> FOCUS ON YOUR FEELING PROCESS HERE_
> 
> ...


This is an area that can be complicated, IMO. I know that when I was in school, I was frequently approached to help other kids cheat, and on occasion, my test was even passed around the room for everybody to cheat off of. :-( I never liked it, but I never felt willing to stop it either. One kid in particular was a school athlete, and if he didn't keep his grades, he'd be off the team. I was much more lenient on him than others, and also helped him study. But I knew that without help, he'd never pass, and football was probably his only way out. But most of what I did was to avoid friction with others, even though I hated it. That's me. And that's experience. 

But to your scenario, I don't see what I'd call a strong sense of duty to following rules. In my experience with young ISFJs, this would be abnormal for them to go along with this--though not impossible. One thing that also pops up here is your struggles with IT and computer classes. This definitely shows a feeling preference over thinking, but again, not so sure which! I'm a bit like you, I either get it or I don't. Some things I see, and once I see, it's a piece of cake. Other things, I can struggle, and never really grasp...



> SCENARIO 3
> 
> FOCUS ON YOUR LOGIC AND THINKING PROCESS HERE
> 
> ...


1. In the first italicized section I see more as a perceptual function, and less Ne than Ni. 2. The second paragraph, italicized, I see more feeling than anything else. 3. The bold section, I see as Te, not Ti. But it's a weak Te, and less confident. 4. The last italic, I see more as Fi than anything else, but I could be empathizing here. ;-)




> SCENARIO 4
> 
> FOCUS ON YOUR LOGIC AND THINKING PROCESS HERE
> 
> ...


1. Fi??? Certainly introversion. 2. weak intuition. and introversion. 3. Ti or Fi. Either way, introverted judging, not extraverted. 

I think it would be pushing it to say it was introverted thinking over feeling here. But based on your need to discuss some topics out loud and get ideas by talking, I wouldn't say Ti. 




> SCENARIO 5
> 
> FOCUS ON THE SOURCES YOU DRAW NON-PHYSICAL ENERGY FROM HERE
> 
> ...


Se here, IMO. No Ne at all, and barely Ni. It's about experiencing, not making or building impressions. The seeking of new, not the old. I have a question, though. Do you like rereading a few books or re-watching a few movies? Also, do you like to listen to a new favorite a lot? Or keep the music rotating? If you do re-watch or listen or read, why?



> Maybe someday I will find something better, because I kind of feel embarrassed for such a lazy mind relaxation, but I did not found it yet. At least I hate sleeping 'till noon. To me it is a waste of day, and sleep is bad. Cha cha, I would never sleep that relaxation time. I would want some mental activity, but maybe that’s the point this question is asking. I feel bad when I sleep until noon or even 10, 11 am. It’s like I am wasting time, like there’s so much to do, even if there is no list of what needs to be done, but I get to things when I see them. I see dirty dishes, and then I do them. I know that there is some better things to do, even if usually there is no. That’s why I like to sit late at night, it feels like I take this time from sleep, and we sleep and there is nothing to do, the world seems calm and harmonic, even if the dark is frightening.


Oh, that not wanting to sleep!!! My youngest, even when she was tiny--four--would not sleep, and when we asked her, she said in her own, feeble way, "If I'm sleeping I can't play." Boom. BTW, Se. ;-)



> This week I watched more series of Doctor Who 8 season, and I have to tell you, I haven’t felt so entertained and full of interest al long time ago. At first I thought that this Doctor will be too dark to me, and maybe this is only the beginning of something coming, but I love Doctors’ and Claras’ relationship, concentrating not on the wild adventures, but on characters, their stories. No book I have read last year was so interesting and entertaining.


You know that ISFPs are at the top of spending the most time watching TV? I think ISFJs are right on their tail. ;-)




> SCENARIO 6
> 
> FOCUS ON THINKING VS FEELING HERE
> 
> ...


Fi, not Fe here...



> I am sorry, there is nothing more left for me to choose from. I tried to be an artist, a musician, but it was not for me, I always saw a blank space in the paper before me, no more. It was a heavy burden to me. I think other art careers will be to.


by other art careers, do you mean graphic arts? or publishing and design? 



> In a career I need to feel safe and secure, but also for it to show my best, not the worst, for example, bossiness. I need to find a career I was born to do, in with I would fit naturally, I do not want to create one for myself. Also, it would be good that I would not be forced to do something against my values, for example, being bartender I needed to sell alcohol early in the morning for mans who not only looked intimidating, but also drove a car. That’s against me and what I would want to let happen. Don’t forget some entertainment, interest in what I do and constant mental stimulation.


Hm.... 



> SCENARIO 7
> 
> _Click on the image below and pay close attention to the things that jump out to you, objects, thoughts, feelings, impressions, ideas etc. What do you see?
> http://personalitycafe.com/attachme...stionnaire-2-0-self-type-paintedcanyon1fb.jpg
> ...


Several things here. The thought about something you learned years ago, possibly weak Ni. Nothing solid here. Your critique of the composition of the photo, though--adjusting it to improve it to your particular taste. Not Si, not Ne, but a strong sense of knowing what you think _looks_ good. The desire to go there in person, the desire to _do_ your own. All point to Se more than anything else.



> From this http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...ive-scenario-questionnaire-2-0-self-type.html
> 
> What is love?
> 
> ...


Seriously.... anything but Fi here??? ;-) It's almost the classic "I love you, but it's none of your business". OK, it could be Ti, but I don't see Ti thinking about all this that much. Plus, I think we can say you have stronger feeling tendencies than thinking. 

I know others said all sorts of things, and I know that I may very well be biased. I also know I'm not the best at doing these things, but I definitely would say SF. I lean stronger to ISFP, next ISFJ, next ESFP and lastly ESFJ. I don't see NP or NJ or TJ at all. And the only reason I think SFJ is because sometimes your feeling seems more outwardly looking than inwardly, but your last paragraph on love... I don't see Fe in that at all. In fact, the one thing that stands out to me (the bold) is how speculating exhausts you. That would suggest a Socionics Ne POLR (vulnerable function) more than anything else. (speaking of which, doesn't Socionics come from Lithuania?)

And again, I can be wrong on any and all of my points. Take it for what you paid. It's just speculation and a sincere desire to help, and nothing more.


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## Agniete (Jun 8, 2015)

Stelliferous said:


> It's obvious you favor Ti over Te. You would rather be alone in developing your logic, growing the strength of it over time. Te is more group-centric and dismissive of what is wrong.. No time to develop internal connections to make sense of things. Because of favoring Ti, that comes with Fe. So whatever type you are it must use Ti and Fe.
> 
> Analyzing your description of the picture at the end: *what you described was very dynamic. You saw motion and you didn't limit the picture to a specific moment in time. You saw movement in the water as it ran, and thousands of years to get to that point in time. This shows that you would prefer Si and Ne over Ni and Se. Ni and Se focuses more on the direct impact of an image, not the motion over time of leading up to an image. *
> 
> That being said, I would narrow the choices down to INTP ENTP ISFJ ESFJ. What comes next is deciding what order you think your functions are in. And, personally, I don't think the order matters too much.


Hmmm, this is interesting. I saw water, I saw waves, and it gave me impresion of running water. It's like I can not imagine it being differently, it just sees it as a river. But thousands of years came in my mind from lessons that I learned at school. I was looking at the rocks, thinking how is this possible, and my mind somewhere find this information. Does this sound like you saw it at first? Dynamic and with motion over time?


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## Agniete (Jun 8, 2015)

mistakenforstranger said:


> Right now, I'm thinking either ESFJ, ISFJ, or even ENFJ. I think Ne and Ti are your lower functions, which would correspond with ESFJ (In this type, Ne >Ti; inferior Ti) and ISFJ (Ti > Ne; inferior Ne), so it may be helpful to look into how inferior Ne and inferior Ti manifest. These articles are long, so it may be a little overwhelming if you're new to all of this:
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/isfj-articles/78380-recognizing-inferior-function-isfj.html
> http://personalitycafe.com/esfj-articles/76787-recognizing-inferior-function-esfjs.html


Yes, I have the same opinion. If I have Ne and Ti in my first four function stack, they are lower order.
I have read those articles. Althought I worry about whats might go wrong (lower Ne), I do not find myself in inferior Ne, much more in inferior Ti when I remember the times I was stressed and overwhelmed. But the thing is, I do not see myself in Fe dominant at all.

If what I wrote here in other thread is Fe function in dominant position, that everything falls into places, but if not, then maybe not. -


Agniete said:


> I was reading some stuff today on tumblr and I think I finally figured out what Fe means (quite late, I know). I looked at myself and how I interpret who I am. I never knew who I was, how to describe the person I am. I hate doing CV's. The thing is I want to look at myself objectively. Can I say I am funny? Can I say I am serious? Nope. Can I say I am carefull? Sometimes I am funny, and sometimes I am serious. I go around pretty much spontaneously, childishly, immature, with my emotions, what might turn out to be not the smartest thing to do, and sometimes I am careful and and mature. It doen't matter if I feel/think/believe I am good person, loving and carrying. I need to be that according to objective values. I would say it's a Te thing because of the need of evidence, but as I speak about values, telling if you are good or bad by external things, Te doesn't really takes these in. T is about logic, what makes sense, so this does not folloow in Te or Ti thing, I guess.
> 
> When I came up with this I thought I am Fe dominant. (It always sounded so shalow to just keep Fe descriptions as the-people-who-loves-group-harmony. I was always thinking to myself - eho even does that? This even don't fallow the system! All of us have emotions, and some people does not have people skils because of traumatic event or not-really-sociable-childhood. My mother doesn't approve of thinking about how others are feeling, how I can take care of them or how to keep group harmony. She thinks it's a weekness and low self esteem. How many of Fe dom could there be with similar family's? In fiction I see a lot of imature ESFJs, but a lot of mature ENFJs, somehow . Again, focusing on Fe being group feeling, carrying for others feelings and Fi as it's own feelings its' owns values, lets' look at Gilmore girls characters Lorelais mother Emily Gilmore (ESFJ) and her friend Sookie St. James (ESFP) (based on the feeling that funky mbti in fiction typing is correct). Emily is controling, my-way-or-I'm-mad, carrying what will society thinks, You-can-not-act-this-way mother. She doens'n concentrate on the feelings of others or group harmony, at leats not for ones that does not include her friends or important social status bussines. Don't get me wrong, that's not all of her you got to see, but pretty much this is what you see on her outside appearence. She even goes to see her doughter bedroom upstairs in Lorelais house. Uninvited! I was mad when I saw that. She wants to buy her doughter a house, even if everything clearly shows that she wants to live in her own, no matter what. Emily does what she believes is best. And when you look at Sookie, you see her always seeing other feelings clearly, and focusing on them. She always cares, listens and tryes to brighten Lorelai up. She focuses on what people want, what whey are needing emotionaly.
> 
> ...


I posted all this rambling so maybe someone could see some patern in my thinkig.


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## Agniete (Jun 8, 2015)

Kitty23 said:


> Oh wow, I am honored!
> 
> Tricky...at first I wanted to say Fe-Ti and low Ne...but then as I read on...I thought I was seeing some Fi.
> 
> ...


Oh my, you know, I have written some short stories at some point in my life. Althought I never consideret a novel as a real thing for me. Me and my friend tryed to write something together from diferrent point of views, but all those times I got bored really quickly. She is STP, she always tells me to write what ever, then we will edit, glue and all of those stuff. But it's not my style. I had a character, I knew him very vell, we had some story to make the beggining, but no more, and this made me go mad. When I write, I have to know what I want to say, where I want to go, how it will end, at least abstractly, and she just want to go with the flow over time. For example, I get a cool view in my mind of a girl who climbs up the tree in beautiful setting, in the city I lived, in its' most beautiful place end time. Thats not enought. I might be driven to write about what I see in that vision, but I need more. What happened? Why she climbs up the tree? Shes a women, and it is a huge city, so why she is doing it? In what circumstances she would want to do it and don't care if somebody sees her? What has to be so captivating to her? 

I do not write for myself. I have my journal, my notebook if I need to take something out of me. I do not love to expres myself in this writing, but I like to write about these kind of scenes that I see in my head and make up the story. For example, in my mind there are the scene where a thought girl smokes in a balkonee that looks just like mine. She feels upset, but it will be ok. I know that sounds not interesting at all, thats why I search for the story, thats what lets me to give the reader the same magical feeling about the scene that I feel. 

I do not think about the impact on others my story could have, I just try to not be rude and to make sence for the one who reads. Definetelly not hight Te. I would use Ti if I would write fantasy world, but I am no Tolkien.


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## Agniete (Jun 8, 2015)

ferroequinologist said:


> Secondly, fake scenarios are really hard to deal with for most people, because it's one thing to talk about them, and another to live them. The first on for instance...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm kind of doubting your answer here. Not the first half, but the second. What I'm doubting is how you will feel internally. No hard feelings? I'm guessing you haven't been in many relationships (not a bad thing), but that is just a guess.  In any case your answer seems to waver between Fe and Fi... I guess that's why I'm thinking you need to live through it to know, and hence why I think Fi is more you than Fe.  Again, a hunch, and nothing more. Unfortunately, it did color the rest of what I read, so I'm glad others responded next, because their replies helped me step back a little, but let's see if what they said changes things. ;-)


I understand you. I have hate relationship with the questionnaires with questions like Who you are? Describe yourself. What do you want? I have no answers to those questions and I answer based on how I feel today. It is always based on what type I think I am deep down, on what I saw today, what I experienced and what I want to look like and be like today, this moment, this second. With scenarios, there's already something to base my answer on, so I just have to give my thoughts.

Oh, no, I did not wanted it to sound like I did not felt any hard feelings. I am sure my internal feelings would be a mess. But talking about our feelings, why he ended our relationship and how to fix it would be hard, awkward, hurting, it's like it would be a hard stone. I would wish these things to be left untouched and shoot out with some hard metal doors, at least for some time. I would not wish to talk about it, thats what I meant saying no hard feelings. At least thats how I imagine it. I guess I need to edit that part. 






> This is an area that can be complicated, IMO. I know that when I was in school, I was frequently approached to help other kids cheat, and on occasion, my test was even passed around the room for everybody to cheat off of. :-( I never liked it, but I never felt willing to stop it either. One kid in particular was a school athlete, and if he didn't keep his grades, he'd be off the team. I was much more lenient on him than others, and also helped him study. But I knew that without help, he'd never pass, and football was probably his only way out. But most of what I did was to avoid friction with others, even though I hated it. That's me. And that's experience.


Oh my God! Please, tell me that at least they asked if they could pass it to all of the class. I understand you. I hate a friend in high school, we were always together everywhere, I always liked to be with somebody at my side. She was bad, she was really bad at almost everything, and not because she didn't tried, but because it just always happened that way, no matter how hard she tried. She was my friend, but I always felt bad helping her, giving her my tasks to cheat of, but I also could not say no. I especially felt bad in classrooms, because felt like doing something bad. Personally I always felt bad if I cheated, so no matter how smart it was, I tried not to do that. And also I was afraid to get caught. All of my life I was afraid emotional insults, others lash outs, emotional bursts, but the worst part is I do it the same as others.




> Se here, IMO. No Ne at all, and barely Ni. It's about experiencing, not making or building impressions. The seeking of new, not the old. I have a question, though. Do you like rereading a few books or re-watching a few movies? Also, do you like to listen to a new favorite a lot? Or keep the music rotating? If you do re-watch or listen or read, why?


I do not like re-watching, re-reading. For example, Doctor who series. I watched it, and I felt alive again, somehow, I don't even get why. The world seems lighter, fuller of interesting people, like it's not always the bad that you can and should expect. I felt excited, but there is no point in watching it again. I know how everything will unfold. Even if I feel the same, my mind would get bored, my attention would flow somewhere else.
Yes, I listen to new favourite music a lot, until it doesn't entertain me, and it doesn't "speak to my heart". Than I just listen to it until I find something new. But listening to old sometimes exhaust me. For example without music: I started to do cross stitching, just for fun, I have a lot of free time and don't know what to do with it. It's a lovely funny Victorian house. I've been doing the same colour almost three weeks. I am waiting for new colours to come in my hand, because the pinks, blues and browns become a chore to me, I am bored. I realized just now that I am focused on entertainment too much.




> Oh, that not wanting to sleep!!! My youngest, even when she was tiny--four--would not sleep, and when we asked her, she said in her own, feeble way, "If I'm sleeping I can't play." Boom. BTW, Se. ;-)


 I want to say that I am happy for you, but I don't know if it's appropriate.




> You know that ISFPs are at the top of spending the most time watching TV? I think ISFJs are right on their tail. ;-)


TV is great when it is not showing something horrible and bad, that makes you think that the world is doomed.




> by other art careers, do you mean graphic arts? or publishing and design?


I meant the arts where you have to create the thing from thin air. (I have no eye for design and fashion, just for colours.) 



> Seriously.... anything but Fi here??? ;-) It's almost the classic "I love you, but it's none of your business". OK, it could be Ti, but I don't see Ti thinking about all this that much. Plus, I think we can say you have stronger feeling tendencies than thinking.


I wrote XSXX on the thread name just because I had a little suspicion I could be ISTJ. If not this, I would definetely have written XSFX. 



> I know others said all sorts of things, and I know that I may very well be biased. I also know I'm not the best at doing these things, but I definitely would say SF. I lean stronger to ISFP, next ISFJ, next ESFP and lastly ESFJ. I don't see NP or NJ or TJ at all. And the only reason I think SFJ is because sometimes your feeling seems more outwardly looking than inwardly, but your last paragraph on love... I don't see Fe in that at all. In fact, the one thing that stands out to me (the bold) is how speculating exhausts you. That would suggest a Socionics Ne POLR (vulnerable function) more than anything else. (speaking of which, doesn't Socionics come from Lithuania?)


Oh yeah, it does, I found out it last year . I used to think it's from Russia. My mother used to read russian books about sociology before I even found out MBTI.



> And again, I can be wrong on any and all of my points. Take it for what you paid. It's just speculation and a sincere desire to help, and nothing more.


Thank you for your time and help, I really appreciate this. When I tagged some of the people I was really afraid I would appear as rude and a little bit ignorant.


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

Agniete said:


> Thank you for your time and help, I really appreciate this. When I tagged some of the people I was really afraid I would appear as rude and a little bit ignorant.


Ah! An ISFP for sure! ;-) (yes, that's a joke). But I still see far too much Fi in you and no Si. That was part of why I asked about the re-watching. I also see a weak Te, or thinking in general. Not, mind you, that thinking means smart, and feeling means dumb. It means that if you had to weigh feelings vs. thinking, you would choose feeling over thinking, and that is what I see. The thing that comes across to me the most from everything you say, is introverted feeling--how everything relates to you, with your internal orientation carrying the most weight. It's possible I'm reading everything wrong, etc. so don't take anything I say as truth or correct.


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## Kitty23 (Dec 27, 2015)

Hmm how about who are you at a theme park? I'm wanting to say Fi for you over Fe. 

Extroverted Sensing (Se) is busy noticing all the details of the park and the people in it. Sights. Sounds. Colors. Oh, cool. That ride flips upside down! I’m going to try that. Do you smell those hotdogs? Aren’t they great? I think we ought to go bungee jumping… it’s only $50 for a group of $12! Which way is the Tower of Terror? I’m going to ride down it and watch all you sissies wet your pants when it drops 50 feet in 12 seconds!

Extroverted Intuition (Ne) sees the possibilities of the park. Look at those two people. You can tell they’re not “together” anymore, but just hanging out for the kid’s sake. See their body language? How many rides are in this park? Do you think anyone ever died here? I think they should put a new ride in this space. Call it the Haunted House of Horrors, and have Dead Presidents in it. You know, they could put up an entire haunted SECTION of the park. That would be awesome. Who do I call to pitch that idea? Stay away from the guy in the red hat. He gives me vibes. Ooh, you know, I could write a story about a murder in a theme park! He could die because the Tilt a Whirl malfunctioned. No, no, because the Tower of Terror ride didn’t stop, it crashed the elevator to the bottom floor! His sister did it. No, his uncle! No, the theme park guy, because he’s freakin’ insane.

Extroverted Thinking (Te) is busy organizing others and coming up with “battle plans.” Which direction do we go first? Give me the park map. Okay, where do we want to be by noon? When and where do we meet for lunch? Who is in charge of watching the kid? Which rides do what? When is the bus leaving? What do we have time for? How long are the lines? Okay, everyone who wants to go on these twelve rides, line up to the left! Everyone else to the right! We meet back here at 7pm! No stragglers! Does everyone have their phone on? Good!

Extroverted Feeling (Fe) makes sure everyone feels involved and has their needs met. Does everyone have a buddy? Nobody should be alone! Let’s go to the bathroom first, okay? How do we feel about hamburgers for lunch? Is that okay? Let’s meet over there, shall we? Does everyone know the plan, so no one is left behind? Let’s take a vote on which direction to go first! Fe will go on a ride it doesn’t like so a friend doesn’t have to do it alone.

Introverted Sensing (Si) relates everything around them to past experience. Last time I was here, I threw up on that ride; I’m not going on it again. Oh, hey, that’s the bench I sat on when so-and-so kissed me! Oh, good, the line is shorter this year. Why does this slushie taste different? I think they put less cherry cola in it than before! I feel ripped off. OR… I’ve never been to a theme park before, but that Ferris wheel reminds me of that scene in The Notebook, when Noah won’t take no for an answer, until Allie agrees to go on a date with him…

Introverted Intuition (Ni) knows what will happen before it happens. I’m going to take a step back, because that kid is going to spill his slushie all over – yup, there it goes. I know which ride I want to go on. I’ve thought about it all week. I’m going to have an awesome time on that ride. I’m going there first. Wait, there are other rides? I didn’t even notice! I was busy fixating on getting to the head of the line! Ha, Marsha better not go on that thing, she’ll hurl—yep, there she goes.

Introverted Thinking (Ti) is busy analyzing how the rides work and what makes the most sense. If I go this way, the path winds around past what I want to see, and by the time we’re to meet up, I’ll have been all the way around the park. I won’t have to walk back, or rush from one side of the park to the other. Wait, why are they all walking in the opposite direction? Don’t they know this is the logical way to do it? If you go that way, you’ll engage in needless walking and won’t be able to get through the line in front of the House of Mirrors.

Introverted Feeling (Fi) decides which direction to go based on what is important to them. I’m going on this ride. No, it’s okay, I can go by myself. I don’t need you to come along unless you want to. I’m serious. I’m not afraid to do it alone. I’m not feeling the burgers, either. You all go ahead. I’m going to dash over to that taco stand. Nope, not going on that ride. You can beg all you want, I won’t do it. I’m scared of heights. Not a chance, bud. Drop it.


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Agniete said:


> Yes, I have the same opinion. If I have Ne and Ti in my first four function stack, they are lower order.
> I have read those articles. Althought I worry about whats might go wrong (lower Ne), I do not find myself in inferior Ne, much more in inferior Ti when I remember the times I was stressed and overwhelmed. But the thing is, I do not see myself in Fe dominant at all.
> 
> If what I wrote here in other thread is Fe function in dominant position, that everything falls into places, but if not, then maybe not. -
> ...


It really depends on how you understand Fe. You're right that Fe isn't always about group harmony. It's really just about being aware of the group, and how your behavior comes across to others whether this be your family, society, etc. Fe tends to align itself with the values of the group, but not always. Fe is also about reciprocation and mutuality. The Golden Rule philosophy. How I act towards you is dependent upon how you act towards me, and vice versa. This means Fe may even disrupt harmony in seeking retaliation for a perceived wrong, because you broke the "social contract" in a way, which then gives that person license to act in a similar manner. 

As far as Sookie listening, being understanding of others, Fi can be empathetic, too. Fi actually knows and understands others' internal, complex feelings better than Fe. Fe can be more conventional, especially when paired with Si.

I've also bolded in your post where I see Fe show up.

Here's some more Fe descriptions:



> Extraverted Feeling
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> Extraverted Feeling
> 
> 
> The extravert of feeling-type lives entirely for contacts of feeling with other people. His feeling attitudes assume a form which is generally approved in the community. As a rule, the life of the individual of feeling-type is not dominated by violent emotion or overwhelming moods: at the same time, in this particular type it is the influence of less differentiated kinds of feeling which tends to find expression. All the actions, thoughts, and observations of people of this type are, however, governed by the effort to establish relationships of feeling with other people. In this, feeling constantly seeks expression, and tries accordingly to arouse corresponding feelings in others, sometimes by means of almost imperceptible manifestations on their own part. The fine shading of their own emotional life enables them, moreover, to read the feelings of others from the smallest indications. In this case, their insight is not always consciously employed, but is more likely to be revealed in an adjustment of their own reactions to such feelings on the part of other people. As a result of this swift understanding of the attitudes of others, and of the immediate adjustment of their own reaction, extraverted feeling is extraordinarily valuable in social intercourse.
> ...


Here's the links where the info comes from:
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/134-Lenore-Thomson-MBTI-Functions
http://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...I-Functional-Descriptions-by-J-H-van-der-Hoop


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## Lord Fudgingsley (Mar 3, 2013)

Interestingly, your style of writing is very similar to that of @_MessyJessie103_, who is an ESFJ.

I quite agree with your analysis, OP that you have low-order Ne and Ti. I see you stumbling in those areas. You seem like a case where the low-order functions are more prevalent, but I'm not perceiving the Ne-Ti reasoning as particularly developed.

I want to add a little more to my reasoning, and I'll start with the fact that I don't particularly like Jinsei's questionnaire. But even so, you seem more focused on the details of each situation you approach. "Objectively there is too much possible options" is definitely a potential marking for weak Ne. For me, it's exactly the way I feel at ease.

I could actually see ESFJ, but I feel like your style of writing is too introspective and doesn't seem to come from an Fe-core. You seem very aware of your internal reactions to the physical world, in the questionnaire, which continues to make me think you are an Si-dom. I don't think you're an Fi, because everything you feel is very analyzed. That's an Fe desiring to communicate their feelings into the external world, and a visceral, inexplainable reaction will not do that.

I like you, by the way.


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## Hottest_Commie_Ever (Nov 11, 2015)

Lord Fudgingsley said:


> Interestingly, your style of writing is very similar to that of @_MessyJessie103_, who is an ESFJ.


Lol, thanks for tagging me! @Agniete I can kinda see that, actually. The same sort of careful emotional expression. (Except for when i'm ranting. That is a whole other story, lmao.)



> I quite agree with your analysis, OP that you have low-order Ne and Ti. I see you stumbling in those areas. You seem like a case where the low-order functions are more prevalent, but I'm not perceiving the Ne-Ti reasoning as particularly developed.


Yeah, you don't seem very confident using Ne and Ti, from what you wrote. However, i can see much more of that than Ni-Te. More random ideas and brainstorms (even though you find them tiring) than entire visions of the future.



> I want to add a little more to my reasoning, and I'll start with the fact that I don't particularly like Jinsei's questionnaire. But even so, you seem more focused on the details of each situation you approach. "Objectively there is too much possible options" is definitely a potential marking for weak Ne. For me, it's exactly the way I feel at ease.


"Objectively there is too much possible options" is exactly how i feel about it, too! Although Ne helps me solve problems when Fe and Si can't cope with all of it, i too find it exhausting to evaluate and juggle so many possibilities at once. It's _too_ many possibilities.



> I could actually see ESFJ, but I feel like your style of writing is too introspective and doesn't seem to come from an Fe-core. You seem very aware of your internal reactions to the physical world, in the questionnaire, which continues to make me think you are an Si-dom. I don't think you're an Fi, because everything you feel is very analyzed. That's an Fe desiring to communicate their feelings into the external world, and a visceral, inexplainable reaction will not do that.


I agree with that. I'd say that ISFJ is a very likely type for you, in conclusion. Oh, and i also see Enneatype 9, based on your OP. But how about we focus on getting your MBTI/Jung type down first, and not get distracted :tongue:


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

I still wouldn't rule out ENFJ completely. Being overwhelmed by possibilities could be lower Ne or Ni.


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## Agniete (Jun 8, 2015)

@mistakenforstranger



> For example: What does music mean? You can't say it. It's ineffable. (See Introverted Intuition and the Meaning of Music.) What is God? What is spirit? Any attempt to capture these things in words only cheapens them.


 from Socionics - the16types.info - Lenore Thomson's MBTI Wiki Explanation of Functions

Is this is how your Ni works? Because I know this verry well. That's why I can not say who I am, because every word I say is not only not objective, but also put my in one little world, like this would ever show someone who I am. But symbols? Making plans? If these are really Ni things, I'm out. 



> I still wouldn't rule out ENFJ completely. Being overwhelmed by possibilities could be lower Ne or Ni.


Yes, I understand. Well, I would really like for material to have one and absolute meaning. Let's say I am drawing a painting (I used to draw, so it has some experience, not only imagination). First of all, I hated doing a lot of scethes of the same drawing just a little bit differently. I see how a lot of artists draws and chooses colors over and over again, and I am just like "Tis is my drawing, let me do it finally". I guess it is not that great of an example, because maybe it's just having no responsibility over your work resultate and having no interest in doing it profesionaly, just taking it as a self expresion. Ok, let's try again. I am painting a work. In my mind, I always had an one particular meaning, and personaly I used to stick with it, because at leaast for that time it had this meaning for me now (that's Ni to me). But was never free of not seeing what else it means. I can not favour one after another if I see both. To the viewers I would give my own compklete meaning, but then you can see what you see, I can not tell you the meaning of it, because it is at some point personal, especialy if you had some experience that can have an influence. I would really love people to see what I see, what I wanted to say because to me it would mean that they understand me, but it is how it is.

If I read a rewiev on film or book, I want it to have one particular point, I do not like when it says it could be this or that could be this. I know that this exsists and I have to deal with it, but I might not favourit it. 

Stelliferous was right, I am more dynamic dichotomy person than static, but I don't really know if this is working. I spend my time a lot doing stuff that could correlate with Se function, but I do not feel excited, entertained, fullfiled. I really thought I could be Se because I try to entertain myself with Se stuff, but it is not my thing, it is boring and waisting my time. Se really fitted my spontaneous life, how I sometimes just do and not think, how I loose myself in my suroundings, noticing almost everything. But with high Se I would have better understanding of the real world, how it works, and I sometimes just favoure what I would like the world to be, how it appears to me, like if I do that I might get out into that reality, where to me everything would make sence.

I read Lenore Thomson's Descriptions of Cognitive Functions, and Si dominant did not had any resonance with me. I will read it all later, I am too tyred to think.

I have a question. How did you unerstood that you are Ni dom?


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## Agniete (Jun 8, 2015)

Yeah, I do that randomness in my writing. For me it makes sence. One thought leads to other, and to me it seems like I made a huge trip from A to some other letter, and I trust this. You know, it has nothing to do with reality or the real things. But if you would get me to choose from a lot of options, for example, you would take me to a bookstore and let me choose one book to buy, it would be bad. When I would come there searching for something in particular, I would grab it and see no worries, but in situation like this... So much options, and nothing in particular that I need/want, except there is so much I want that I can't choose.

Or, maybe that is universal.

I did not get in enneagram enough for it to worry me, or for it to make sense, but at least as mutch as I read, 9 seems like the one I do not need to worry and search enough evidence to be it. Just being my regular self is enough to somehow find myself in the descriptions I have read. At least for now, I guess you know how it can geet over time .

Can I ask you how do you experience inferior Ti? Do you have any example to show the patern of it?


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

mistakenforstranger said:


> I thought I'd chime in here. This above seems to me a Fe-mode of evaluation. I also noticed in an earlier post, you said to another user something like, "I'm not sure if it would be appropriate to..." Gauging things in terms of their appropriateness is another sign of Fe. I don't believe Fi even thinks in those terms.


Here's what went down, actually:


> _Oh, that not wanting to sleep!!! My youngest, even when she was tiny--four--would not sleep, and when we asked her, she said in her own, feeble way, "If I'm sleeping I can't play." Boom. BTW, Se. ;-)
> _
> 
> I want to say that I am happy for you, but I don't know if it's appropriate.




Honestly, I might feel the same way--and here's the problem. She said something, then after the fact, wasn't sure if it was the right thing to say... so she qualified it. IDK, but that "feels" more Fi to me than Fe. It's one of those socially awkward things that happens to me often enough. I say something, then afterwards, wonder if it was dumb to say--and here, where 1. English isn't her first langauge, and 2. she doesn't know me, nor, necessarily how the forum operates, 3. there are no visual clues to fall back on, she brings it up. Sure, this happens to Fi types too, especially since we don't want to cause friction, make waves, etc. that would make us feel awkward. Now, if she were truly Fe, she would not feel comfortable until she heard back from me that it was OK. I don't think I said anything, but left her to deal with the consequences. In fact, I didn't think of it until I read your post, but I wonder if I should have replied to that... And here is where we can make a guess at Fe vs. Fi. @Agniete when you stated that, did you need some form of feedback from me? or did you just move on and forget it after you said it?

IMO, Fe would have wanted some sort of feedback that what she said was OK, whereas I'd not need it, and, in fact, would prefer not to have the awkward subject brought up again. ;-)


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

mistakenforstranger said:


> I thought I'd chime in here. This above seems to me a Fe-mode of evaluation.


I meant to ask you, how would you answer my question regarding what would make you feel guilty? 

I will admit that, at first glance, I thought her answer was an Fe one, but there are enough fine distinctions in there that it could also be argued that we are simply seeing a highly-developed feeling function.

For instance, for myself, in social circles or groups that are a bit outside my normal mode of operation, I would only consider one thing--myself. In closer circles, I might be inclined to look to some within that group as worth taking into consideration. With my family--children and wife, things can go entirely oppositely, and I would sacrifice my own needs and wishes entirely for them, and never have a second thought... today, for instance. Wife wanted to buy flavored coffee. She asked my choice. I told her. She didn't like it, so I told her one that I knew she'd like. I would much, much rather make her happy than to sip my preference in coffee. I somehow have my suspicions that an Fe type might not make such fine distinctions, and might, in fact, go the opposite way. But that's just my guess... So, @mistakenforstranger (and any other Fe-type) I'm curious how you'd answer...


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

ferroequinologist said:


> Here's what went down, actually:
> 
> 
> [/COLOR]Honestly, I might feel the same way--and here's the problem. She said something, then after the fact, wasn't sure if it was the right thing to say... so she qualified it. IDK, but that "feels" more Fi to me than Fe. It's one of those socially awkward things that happens to me often enough. I say something, then afterwards, wonder if it was dumb to say--and here, where 1. English isn't her first langauge, and 2. she doesn't know me, nor, necessarily how the forum operates, 3. there are no visual clues to fall back on, she brings it up. Sure, this happens to Fi types too, especially since we don't want to cause friction, make waves, etc. that would make us feel awkward. Now, if she were truly Fe, she would not feel comfortable until she heard back from me that it was OK. I don't think I said anything, but left her to deal with the consequences. In fact, I didn't think of it until I read your post, but I wonder if I should have replied to that... And here is where we can make a guess at Fe vs. Fi. @_Agniete_ when you stated that, did you need some form of feedback from me? or did you just move on and forget it after you said it?
> ...


Yes, that's a good distinction to make. 



ferroequinologist said:


> I meant to ask you, how would you answer my question regarding what would make you feel guilty?
> 
> I will admit that, at first glance, I thought her answer was an Fe one, but there are enough fine distinctions in there that it could also be argued that we are simply seeing a highly-developed feeling function.
> 
> For instance, for myself, in social circles or groups that are a bit outside my normal mode of operation, I would only consider one thing--myself. In closer circles, I might be inclined to look to some within that group as worth taking into consideration. With my family--children and wife, things can go entirely oppositely, and I would sacrifice my own needs and wishes entirely for them, and never have a second thought... today, for instance. Wife wanted to buy flavored coffee. She asked my choice. I told her. She didn't like it, so I told her one that I knew she'd like. I would much, much rather make her happy than to sip my preference in coffee. I somehow have my suspicions that an Fe type might not make such fine distinctions, and might, in fact, go the opposite way. But that's just my guess... So, @_mistakenforstranger_ (and any other Fe-type) I'm curious how you'd answer...





> I personally think one can simplify the differences like this--don't know if I've brought it up in this thread or not, so, if this is a repeat, sorry. If you are in a situation in a group, and compromise is necessary, which would make you feel more guilty? Having to compromise an individual for the sake of the group? Or compromising the group for the sake of the individual? Which would make you feel worse, keeping in mind that the compromise must be made. (don't make it too dramatic of a situation here--not life or death, just something that would make someone unhappy, or the group unhappy).


Is this the question? Let's just say one time I gave up going to where I wanted to eat on my birthday, because I realized it was too expensive for everyone else, and I could tell most of them didn't want to go there. The overall "mood" subtly influenced me to reconsider my decision.


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

mistakenforstranger said:


> Is this the question? Let's just say one time I gave up going to where I wanted to eat on my birthday, because I realized it was too expensive for everyone else, and I could tell most of them didn't want to go there. The overall "mood" subtly influenced me to reconsider my decision.


Yeah. So, you would generally prefer to make choices where your own preferences are compromised for the sake of the group. Here's another weird question. What if everybody wanted to go, but one person couldn't afford it, but didn't say anything, but you knew. What would you do then? I'm not really sure where that one falls, but now I've thought it, I'm curious. ;-)

Actually, this sort of example isn't the best. And here's why. For myself, at least, there's nothing in there that I would call "important." Maybe money means a lot to some people, but when it comes to others, I'm far too generous for that to be something to stop me. 

On the other hand, I've been in lots of situations that I've felt the odd-man out, and felt compelled to comply, but I felt that doing so would compromise who I am, and I resisted. There have been times, also, where I really couldn't resist without causing so many problems to plans, etc. so I went along, but really hated myself for doing it. 

And there have been times... oh, here's one. There are lots of beggars in my town. The vast majority are what I'd call fake. They are just taking advantage of people. I don't want to go into details (it's a tourist destination), but trust me, they aren't real needy people. On the rare occasion, I've succumbed, and given money, and felt guilty and stupid afterwards for doing it. I never feel better. On the other hand, there are truly needy people here, and I always try to help them when I can. I seldom just give money, but try to help in a material way. These people are usually also not just asking for money, they will say what their need is. I've bought food, medicine, clothes, tickets, etc. But every time I've had to turn one of these people down, I've felt guilty for _not_ helping them. I felt I compromised who I was--even if I didn't have the means to help them. These examples aren't quite the same, but the pressures are similar...


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

ferroequinologist said:


> Yeah. So, you would generally prefer to make choices where your own preferences are compromised for the sake of the group. Here's another weird question. What if everybody wanted to go, but one person couldn't afford it, but didn't say anything, but you knew. What would you do then? I'm not really sure where that one falls, but now I've thought it, I'm curious. ;-)
> 
> Actually, this sort of example isn't the best. And here's why. For myself, at least, there's nothing in there that I would call "important." Maybe money means a lot to some people, but when it comes to others, I'm far too generous for that to be something to stop me.


Yes, if everyone wanted to go, I'd probably still go along with the group, and if I had enough money, I'd even offer to pay for the other person who didn't have enough money, but I'd likely tell them in private, so no one else would know. It's funny because in the above example I used my ExFP friend was telling me, "You should go where you want to go." And I was like... It all turned out, though, and I didn't really regret it.



ferroequinologist said:


> On the other hand, I've been in lots of situations that I've felt the odd-man out, and felt compelled to comply, but I felt that doing so would compromise who I am, and I resisted. There have been times, also, where I really couldn't resist without causing so many problems to plans, etc. so I went along, but really hated myself for doing it.
> 
> And there have been times... oh, here's one. There are lots of beggars in my town. The vast majority are what I'd call fake. They are just taking advantage of people. I don't want to go into details (it's a tourist destination), but trust me, they aren't real needy people. On the rare occasion, I've succumbed, and given money, and felt guilty and stupid afterwards for doing it. I never feel better. On the other hand, there are truly needy people here, and I always try to help them when I can. I seldom just give money, but try to help in a material way. These people are usually also not just asking for money, they will say what their need is. I've bought food, medicine, clothes, tickets, etc. But every time I've had to turn one of these people down, I've felt guilty for _not_ helping them. I felt I compromised who I was--even if I didn't have the means to help them. These examples aren't quite the same, but the pressures are similar...


Yes, I think that's a difference between Fi and Fe. I don't really have a sense of "who I am" or even would consider that I'd be in some way "compromising myself" with certain decisions. Mine's more about I show you respect, I've done these things for you, you should show respect back and help me out, too, once in a while when I need help. A sort-of Golden Rule philosophy. Does that clear things up?


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

mistakenforstranger said:


> Yes, if everyone wanted to go, I'd probably still go along with the group, and if I had enough money, I'd even offer to pay for the other person who didn't have enough money, but I'd likely tell them in private, so no one else would know. It's funny because in the above example I used my ExFP friend was telling me, "You should go where you want to go." And I was like... It all turned out, though, and I didn't really regret it.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I think that's a difference between Fi and Fe. I don't really have a sense of "who I am" or even would consider that I'd be in some way "compromising myself" with certain decisions. Mine's more about I show you respect, I've done these things for you, you should show respect back and help me out, too, once in a while when I need help. A sort-of Golden Rule philosophy. Does that clear things up?


Yeah! And it shows me that my question is really hard to generalize... ;-)


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

ferroequinologist said:


> Yeah! And it shows me that my question is really hard to generalize... ;-)


Ok, is my response how you would see Fe? I'm confused as to how Fi would answer it.


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

mistakenforstranger said:


> Ok, is my response how you would see Fe? I'm confused as to how Fi would answer it.


Well, from my perspective, if one were forced to compromise oneself (or to force an individual to compromise for the sake of the group), one would feel guilty for compromising. On the other hand, Fe would feel guilty compromising the group for the sake of the individual or for self. When I asked this question to people I know personally, for whom I am quite certain of their feeling orientation, it was pretty much straight up and down... Fi was the first, and Fe the second. But when I try that on the forum here, it seems like it's not so cut and dried--don't know if I don't know how to ask the question, or if people have a hard time visualizing proper scenarios, or what...


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## Agniete (Jun 8, 2015)

KalimofDaybreak said:


> Absolutely. I can go days without feeling something because, like I said above, I need to process them externally, and often times I don't even know I've felt until I've externalized it in some way.


Yes, I understand that part about not feeling anything for some days, I used to be the same some time ago. I used to think that there is something wrong with me, I used to see it as apathy, but it might have been it. A lot of days flew through me not making me feel a damn thing (I mean from feeling perspective). But to not understand what you feel, to not even know that you felt something? At least I know that something's wrong or right. I know if the feeling is light, making me bubble or am I feeling down. Maybe I don't know what to name it or what is cousin it, so I analyze, try to see what happened, why do I feel that, what can I call this feeling. I know that previously in on thread I mentioned the situation in with I don't know what I feel, but I knew that something in me is up. That's why it seems so strange to me not know what you feel, but maybe you will find yourself in what I have written here .



KalimofDaybreak said:


> To determine what? I'm a little confused by your question.
> 
> As far as Te vs. Ti, it's essentially the same as Fe and Fi. Te is extraverted, oriented towards the external circumstances and is thus more changing and situational while still seeking a way to standardize its impersonal evaluations. Ti is like Fi--oriented towards its own inner frame of logic and strives more eternal principles while still having the same individualistic drive that Fi does. Really, anything said about Fe applies to Te, except Fe is, again, that personal measurement and Te is impersonal. This is true for Fi and Ti as well, again with Fi being personal and Ti being impersonal.


To determine which one the person is using.


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## Agniete (Jun 8, 2015)

ferroequinologist said:


> Here's what went down, actually:
> 
> 
> [/COLOR]Honestly, I might feel the same way--and here's the problem. She said something, then after the fact, wasn't sure if it was the right thing to say... so she qualified it. IDK, but that "feels" more Fi to me than Fe. It's one of those socially awkward things that happens to me often enough. I say something, then afterwards, wonder if it was dumb to say--and here, where 1. English isn't her first langauge, and 2. she doesn't know me, nor, necessarily how the forum operates, 3. there are no visual clues to fall back on, she brings it up. Sure, this happens to Fi types too, especially since we don't want to cause friction, make waves, etc. that would make us feel awkward. Now, if she were truly Fe, she would not feel comfortable until she heard back from me that it was OK. I don't think I said anything, but left her to deal with the consequences. In fact, I didn't think of it until I read your post, but I wonder if I should have replied to that... And here is where we can make a guess at Fe vs. Fi. @Agniete when you stated that, did you need some form of feedback from me? or did you just move on and forget it after you said it?
> ...


I usually don't react to things like that in "Oh, how sweet; how lucky you are; etc". What you have written about me not knowing the rules for situations, that's totally true (I find that I usually always need them, I feel stronger when I know what I am supposed to do, what is supposed from me). From what you have written in that post, I idealistically made up an image, an in my mind it seemed like happy image. I wanted to answer with that image in my mind. I left to determine my response to you. Directly I didn't said anything, at least that's how I see it. If you would see it not as something not appropriate, you would take my as the person happy for you (doesn't it sounds strange? That's why I try not to use these sentences), and if not, then I would not have said directly anything bad enough.

No, I don't think I was waiting for your response to say if it was ok or not. Even if I would written something directly (let's say that I see it directly from my language), I would still not wait for you to respond to it well. Cha cha, I would just be waiting for you to respond at al and keep this thread going.


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## Agniete (Jun 8, 2015)

ferroequinologist said:


> I meant to ask you, how would you answer my question regarding what would make you feel guilty?
> 
> I will admit that, at first glance, I thought her answer was an Fe one, but there are enough fine distinctions in there that it could also be argued that we are simply seeing a highly-developed feeling function.
> 
> For instance, for myself, in social circles or groups that are a bit outside my normal mode of operation, I would only consider one thing--myself. In closer circles, I might be inclined to look to some within that group as worth taking into consideration. With my family--children and wife, things can go entirely oppositely, and I would sacrifice my own needs and wishes entirely for them, and never have a second thought... today, for instance. Wife wanted to buy flavored coffee. She asked my choice. I told her. She didn't like it, so I told her one that I knew she'd like. I would much, much rather make her happy than to sip my preference in coffee. I somehow have my suspicions that an Fe type might not make such fine distinctions, and might, in fact, go the opposite way. But that's just my guess... So, @mistakenforstranger (and any other Fe-type) I'm curious how you'd answer...


Well, my cousin is ESTP, at least from what I know. Our grandma have diabetes, in that form that she can not eat sweets, but somehow my cousin always gives her chocolate, specifically milk chocolate she loves the most. I never understand this. She felt hurt when she made pasta for her boyfriend and herself, and found out that he hates spicy sauce and beans. But I think he was a bit rude, so maybe it is not that. She hates raisins, so she buys chocolate without them, even if her boyfriend likes them. Strange, can this be Fe and not egocentrism? I don't know. From these things alone I would have said she is Fi without no concern about others, but there is much more Fe in her. I have to admit I meet a lot of STPs in my life, and somehow I always saw that they have much more Fe than I do, but you have to remember their Fe comes with Ti, so it is much more charismatic and in the place when they need it. They can control it (I mean I saw ESTP using his Fe whenever he needs it, but not that much alone naturally. But I might be so far from the truth). (They might not be STPs at al, taking in mind that it is hard for me to find my type and see the natural functions for myself).


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## Agniete (Jun 8, 2015)

mistakenforstranger said:


> Is this the question? Let's just say one time I gave up going to where I wanted to eat on my birthday, because I realized it was too expensive for everyone else, and I could tell most of them didn't want to go there. The overall "mood" subtly influenced me to reconsider my decision.


I would have done the same, if I just would have been noticing or knowing about them. My priority would have been the people I am going with, I would not want them to feel uncomfortably just because I wanted something that is so not important. But I have an experience in my profesional school. Our group did the project, and I had to talk in front of a class. They gave me the paper, expecting me, as they would have done - read from the paper. I knew that this fiery girl from my group will be talking shit about me, will be always angry at me if I will do what I had in my mind, but I still did it. In my hight school, we were trained to talk and not read from the papers, it was seen as respect to yourself, teacher and her subject. And the teacher we had with our group have said some lessons before to do everything properly. So I felt I was not comfortable just reading, I talked. I screw up some minor things, I added the things I thought group were not seeing or have done incorrectly, but just because I felt/believed it was needed. I felt uncomfortable not doing it. I have been planing not to go to important family meetings and not care about the family social rules, because I just felt I am not comfortable beeing there, doing what is expected of us to do. Now I feel that you could judge me for these thoughts, but I can not change how I feel, I just could do the things that needed to be done for not wanting to cause friction.

But at my cousins' wedding I went with the group, done almost everything they done and played along. I needed to do it, but when I felt that it will not be anything bad to not do it, I did not.

Would I have felt guilty not attending my cousins wedding for my personal feelings? If I felt I should, maybe. But I would have felt guilty if I would had hurt somebodys' feelings, or my cousin would have thought about me in a bad light, because she would be right, I would have acted selfish, and I don't want people to see me as it, because I don't want to be selfish, just sometimes I just can not recognise I am or I do.

Oh, I started rambling. Pardon me.


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## Agniete (Jun 8, 2015)

ferroequinologist said:


> This. right there... I think this might actually be the heart of our problem. I knew a 16 yr old ISTJ, and he wanted to know his type, and we struggled and struggled for a long time, because he needs to talk out everything. but over time, I began to realize that his thinking was emerging over his feeling. My ESTP son also, as a kid, would do these wild swings between thinking and feeling. For instance, he was very compliant and wanting to please, but he honestly, was also rather susceptible to peer pressure. He was in his 20s before we were sure of his real personality. (If I had known about Keirsey, it would have been easier. He was such a Keirsey Promoter)
> 
> You are a GenZ-er, so it's entirely possible that you are not yet fully aware of yourself, and how you function internally. Maybe it would be better to just read the types, and work from there. Oh, there is a cool website for children. They use only the three letters, and skip the aux, so, for instance, they have descriptions for ESP, ISJ, IFP, EFJ, etc. I'll have to look for it.
> 
> ...


I am a bit sceptical on this. To me it seems strange that it sums up in one four types, witch seems totally different, except for some letters. Sorry, I have no logical explanation why I don't trust Keirsey now, but I just can not buy it. The other thing is calling yourself SJ or SP. This is logical.

Sorry, i just have nothing to prove my thoughts now. Maybe latter I will come back to this, maybe even with another light.


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Agniete said:


> I would have done the same, if I just would have been noticing or knowing about them. My priority would have been the people I am going with, I would not want them to feel uncomfortably just because I wanted something that is so not important. But I have an experience in my profesional school. Our group did the project, and I had to talk in front of a class. They gave me the paper, expecting me, as they would have done - read from the paper. I knew that this fiery girl from my group will be talking shit about me, will be always angry at me if I will do what I had in my mind, but I still did it. In my hight school, we were trained to talk and not read from the papers, it was seen as respect to yourself, teacher and her subject. And the teacher we had with our group have said some lessons before to do everything properly. So I felt I was not comfortable just reading, I talked. I screw up some minor things, I added the things I thought group were not seeing or have done incorrectly, but just because I felt/believed it was needed. I felt uncomfortable not doing it. I have been planing not to go to important family meetings and not care about the family social rules, because I just felt I am not comfortable beeing there, doing what is expected of us to do. Now I feel that you could judge me for these thoughts, but I can not change how I feel, I just could do the things that needed to be done for not wanting to cause friction.
> 
> But at my cousins' wedding I went with the group, done almost everything they done and played along. I needed to do it, but when I felt that it will not be anything bad to not do it, I did not.
> 
> ...


Hmm, I wouldn't say any of those examples would exclude you from being an Fe-user. Fe doesn't have to always go along with the group. It's more that it's aware of the expectations of others (whether this be, family, friends, society, etc.), and feels obligated to follow those expectations. Going against those expectations can create inner tension and make one feel conflicted, which you seemed to be in the examples you gave. Another reason I think you use Fe is because when you describe your stories, you don't really focus on your personal reactions to the situation. Instead, you seem to understand the feelings of the people around you more. You can articulate their emotions more than your own. I see this in the above post, when you talk about your grandma, for instance.


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

mistakenforstranger said:


> Hmm, I wouldn't say any of those examples would exclude you from being an Fe-user. Fe doesn't have to always go along with the group. It's more that it's aware of the expectations of others (whether this be, family, friends, society, etc.), and feels obligated to follow those expectations. Going against those expectations can create inner tension and make one feel conflicted, which you seemed to be in the examples you gave. Another reason I think you use Fe is because when you describe your stories, you don't really focus on your personal reactions to the situation. Instead, you seem to understand the feelings of the people around you more. You can articulate their emotions more than your own. I see this in the above post, when you talk about your grandma, for instance.


If you notice below, she really isn't focused at all on how others think, but of her percption of how others will think, and how she herself feels about it all. Her focus and awareness is on her own feelings and perceptions, not really how others really perceive her. Now, that could be Si or Fi... but I don't see that as Fe. Keeping in mind that Fi is really about the awareness of distance between the object (others) and the subject (self). it is this awareness of distance that she is noticing and, to put it in other terms, trying to regulate--keep a proper distance, you might say. I am not an Fe type, but I don't see Fe functioning in that way, as the relationship is very directly to the object, and thus, not thinking about regulating distance, but attempting to draw as close as possible (even if in a negative way). I suppose I could also put it in this way. Fe, as I see and feel it in my life, is about regulating _others_ distance, not self's distance. Does that make sense? Fe either pushes people away or pulls people closer. Fi either draws closer or draws away. One is "active" the other "passive" in relation to others. She strikes me as passive. (and again, this is something--I shared this with my Fe-dom daughter, and it took her a while to suss what I was trying to say--that Fe types don't sense or feel in the same way?)



Agniete said:


> Would I have felt guilty not attending my cousins wedding for my personal feelings? If I felt I should, maybe. But I would have felt guilty if I would had hurt somebodys' feelings, or my cousin would have thought about me in a bad light, because she would be right, I would have acted selfish, and I don't want people to see me as it, because I don't want to be selfish, just sometimes I just can not recognise I am or I do.
> 
> Oh, I started rambling. Pardon me.


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## KalimofDaybreak (Aug 6, 2015)

Agniete said:


> Yes, I understand that part about not feeling anything for some days, I used to be the same some time ago. I used to think that there is something wrong with me, I used to see it as apathy, but it might have been it. A lot of days flew through me not making me feel a damn thing (I mean from feeling perspective). But to not understand what you feel, to not even know that you felt something? At least I know that something's wrong or right. I know if the feeling is light, making me bubble or am I feeling down. Maybe I don't know what to name it or what is cousin it, so I analyze, try to see what happened, why do I feel that, what can I call this feeling. I know that previously in on thread I mentioned the situation in with I don't know what I feel, but I knew that something in me is up. That's why it seems so strange to me not know what you feel, but maybe you will find yourself in what I have written here .


Yeah. In general I know whether or not something is pleasing or displeasing to me. My emotions tend to be more represented to me through the weather. If I feel good, my mind seems sunny and bright to me. If I feel poorly, I see clouds and rain in my mind. And I definitely relate to knowing that you're feeling something, but not totally aware of what the feeling is.



Agniete said:


> To determine which one the person is using.


That's a fairly simple question that is also somehow complicated. The best way to determine that I've found is to just take the concepts and apply them to your thinking as a whole. See which ones you appear to be doing more often, _not_ just in a single moment. A preference for a certain function is indicated by a long-standing preference for a certain frame of thought. So, it isn't that you did something 'Fi' at this moment that defines you, but if you see yourself doing a lot of Fi over a long period of time. Or Si, Ti, Ni, and so on. Honestly, it's just a matter of what you most often do.


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

Agniete said:


> I am a bit sceptical on this. To me it seems strange that it sums up in one four types, witch seems totally different, except for some letters. Sorry, I have no logical explanation why I don't trust Keirsey now, but I just can not buy it. The other thing is calling yourself SJ or SP. This is logical.
> 
> Sorry, i just have nothing to prove my thoughts now. Maybe latter I will come back to this, maybe even with another light.


First of all, there are many ways to divide up the 16 types into various groupings. For instance, the original Jungian types would be IFP, ITP, ISJ, INJ, EFJ, ETJ, ESP, ENP. And one can divide the groups even more broadly, like FPs, FJs, TJs, TPs. And then there's the EJs, EPs, IJs and IPs. These aren't all the potential combinations. All of these groupings have traits in common, as well as differences. So it is not so far-flung for Keirsey to do what he did.

That said, what he did was look, not at functions as individual, separate entities--in fact, he doesn't bother with functions at all. He also didn't look the the dichotomies (E-I, S-N, T-F, P,J), like MBTI does. MBTI looks at each of these separately, and builds a type up from the disparate parts, so I describes introversion, S describes Sensing, T describes thinking and J describes judging. Putting the four characteristics together, you build up a profile from the parts. 

Keirsey views personality as a whole--called temperament. He sees them as indivisible. However, at the beginning, when he was first developing his system, he came from MBTI, so employed their letters as a shortcut to get people to understand where he was going (but not where he was coming from, if you can see the difference). He actually went all the way back to Hippocrates and his four temperaments, and saw that through time, these four were observed by many different people through the multitudes of millennia up until the present. He thought he could see how MBTI fit into that mold too, but he had a problem, Myer's four groupings, ST, SF, NT, NF didn't fit quite right. There were big differences between, for instance, ISFJ and ISFP temperaments, when you watched them in action. However, when he decided to look at them from a different perspective, SJ and SP, things clicked better. All SPs are tool users--people who love to grab a tool and use it. Tool must be understood loosely here. A paint brush is a tool, as is a hammer, as is a car or a fork lift, as is a hockey stick or a ball or a musical instrument. All SPs tended to use tools in what he saw as unique and creative ways that were, in a word, pragmatic or utilitarian. They would use a shovel, for instance, to chop down a tree, not just dig a hole. They were quick to improvise in their use of tools, and strived for mastery--not just "proper" or "predetermined" usage and mastery, but to use whatever tool to accomplish whatever task the SP wanted to accomplish, regardless of whether or not that was the tool's "accepted" use. Here's another illustration from my own life. I have frequently used my car to close gates. You just drive a bit forward or backward, turning the wheel just right, bump the gate, and it closes. No need to get out of the car and muck around. Every time I've done that, I've infuriated or scared a passenger. "That's not how it's done!" tends to be their cry. I ask, "Did it work?" "Yeah, but it might not have!" And my final reply is "If I didn't think it would work, I wouldn't have done it." That's one example. ;-)

SJs, on the other hand, tend to prefer to do things in ways that they are set out or supposed to be done. They tend to prefer to be involved in things that will advance their careers, or will create a positive or cohesiveness with others. They are the soccer moms, the community activists, the politically involved, etc. The parents are generally quite "involved" with their child's schooling, sometimes being quite a pain to the teachers. I'm throwing out some rather generic or overly general descriptions here, but every one I've offered, I can think of specific people I know. The SJ types are the law makers, and the SP types, the law breakers. ;-) Not in a literal sense, but in the sense of how they view the material world around them--one views it as shared, community-based, while the other as a playground to live in. So, these are things that Keirsey observed, and when he noticed how they were consistent among the SPs and SJs, that was what settled it for him.

I could go on, but suffice it to say, the four temperaments is not something new, nor something he thought up. All he did was apply MBTI to that world, and, IMO, he gave more credibility both the temperament theory and MBTI. But that's just me. There are some here would disagree, and it's possible you will hear from them. They have eagle eyes for this sort of post and love to prove me wrong. ;-)

In any case, it is a different approach, but I can understand if you aren't interested in it. I just wanted to give my perspective, and maybe clarify some points.


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## Agniete (Jun 8, 2015)

Hey, @Prada, do you have some time for this thread?


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## Agniete (Jun 8, 2015)

ferroequinologist said:


> First of all, there are many ways to divide up the 16 types into various groupings. For instance, the original Jungian types would be IFP, ITP, ISJ, INJ, EFJ, ETJ, ESP, ENP. And one can divide the groups even more broadly, like FPs, FJs, TJs, TPs. And then there's the EJs, EPs, IJs and IPs. These aren't all the potential combinations. All of these groupings have traits in common, as well as differences. So it is not so far-flung for Keirsey to do what he did.
> 
> That said, what he did was look, not at functions as individual, separate entities--in fact, he doesn't bother with functions at all. He also didn't look the the dichotomies (E-I, S-N, T-F, P,J), like MBTI does. MBTI looks at each of these separately, and builds a type up from the disparate parts, so I describes introversion, S describes Sensing, T describes thinking and J describes judging. Putting the four characteristics together, you build up a profile from the parts.
> 
> ...


Yes, I understand what you are saying. To me what you said totally makes sense, but you put it briefly and with some pattern that works. Maybe I need to read more about it and find as well as form that brief information about patterns for myself. I guess I need more time and information. I think I know too little about it to spread my opinion.


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## Prada (Sep 10, 2015)

Agniete said:


> Hey, Prada, do you have some time for this thread?


I feel honoured that you ask for my help. Though, I may or may not suffer from sleep deprivation because of this (I was supposed to go to bed an hour before I started writing this), so this might be slightly confusing.

After I read the questionnaire, few things were obvious to me. S > N (I know you stated this but sometimes, people are confused here), Ti > Te, no visible Fi and possibly low T function. Which means xSFJ. I also saw hints of Ni but that could also indicate inferior Ne.

After I read your answers and your posts, I cannot see Fe as your dominant function. It's clearly visible but at the same time, you don't seem very secure in it. You also seem to talk about proof and logic (and making logical conclusions overall) a lot more than an inferior Ti user would. You seem to have more of a desire to adhere to it. How you and others feel about things is important to you but logic is as well. Which makes me think that your Fe-Ti are positioned close to one another.

You also seem to have a strong introverted focus. You like people (which is understandable for an FJ) but at the same time you prefer to work on your own because you worry about things going wrong. Again, a Fe-dom would be more certain of their people skills. You also mentioned living in your own world that seems to copy the real one quite a lot. This one is difficult to explain but I definitely get strong introverted focus vibes from you.

Another thing I noticed is the N function. You're bordering on Ni/Ne which seems to indicate (given the above functions) inferior Ne. It acts a lot like Ni and can be often confused with it. However, when things go bad, inferior Ne starts panicking and imagining all the possible terrible things that could happen. Which is something you seemed to do in the project scenario. When you described projects, you saw all the things that could go wrong and thus it wasn't worth it. "I am well aware how in a group not only people, but also the job, the information can go wrong." From the way you phrased it, it doesn't seem something that you would sit down and spend half an hour thinking about. It seems like it simply popped up in your head. You got a project and you saw all the million of things that could go wrong. So you prefer to avoid it altogether.

Ni, in this situation, would focus on the most ideal outcome. It would create every step of its path to the goal and problem solve when necessary. If Ni were negative, it would focus on one terrible outcome. "I can't take this project because I will disappoint the company." or "I can't do this because I will fail." Compared to that, you see the problems that will arise in the process at the same time (approximately), while Ni, in negativity, would focus on the end of the worst case scenario. 

tl;dr version: My vote goes to ISFJ. Your Fe seems too insecure for a dominant function, your Ti is too developed for an inferior function and your overall focus seems introverted. Also, your Ne acts inferior.


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