# INTP - can't do maths.



## DlusionAl (Apr 9, 2011)

Kevin De Smet said:


> I understand what you're saying, but I think the underlying math is for the enthusiast. Not somethat that every student in just about every single mechanical engineering course on the face of the planet, needs to learn--and learn extensively, at that. It's something that is still around for historical reasons and nowadays seems to be there as a sizeable chunk of the curriculum just because it's 'hard'.
> 
> I suppose you have a point on MIT's bottom-up learning. Top down wouldn't be the solution. Then there really is no hope anymore for formalized schooling: chuck it out the window, belongs in the history books.


 I agree. I dreaded my math classes. I had to take useless math courses for my degree just to satisfy my curriculum. Can't begin to express my hate for some of them. Never have I ever used calculus 3 in any of my other courses. Any part of it. Completely useless.

Most of what you use in school you do not use for your job, you just get trained in whatever they need you to do. Though I do regret getting the fundamental understanding of what I am doing. I guess it's pretty difficult to teach to a mass of whom each will do something very specific.


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## Kikyo (Sep 18, 2014)

pianofire said:


> I am an INTP and I have noticed many INTPs are most suited or working/studying in something maths related. I am so incredibly bad at maths it's almost a joke. I am a frustrated architect but was put off applying for an architecture degree purely because I don't think I could handle the maths involved.
> 
> I love languages though or anything else systematic like that.
> 
> Is anyone else like this?


You're not alone. I had nothing against maths at a young age, but over the years I became less and less interested in it, to the point of doing math made me literally fall asleep. It was so booooring it made me drowsy. It wasn't even due to not understanding. I was actually good when I tried, but it took me tremendous efforts to do so because I really *hated* maths. I sucked at maths because of my lack of interest in them, it might be the case for you too. I am a literary person.


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## StranGaaa Danjjja (Jan 6, 2015)

All I do is round up and down in life thanks math yayyyyyyyyyyyyy


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## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

i feel ya. 

i never went very far in math because it was always a headache to get anyone to actually explain what was going on. i think this is because, even with their degrees, they didn't actually know. they could work an equation, but they couldn't tell you why it worked that way other than to quote a rule, but they couldn't even explain why the rule worked the way it did. 
i usually got the same answer--out of frustration i'm sure--which was:

"just wait until you take a more advanced class. that's not what we're going over here. it'll make more sense later"
(obviously not, since they took those "more advanced classes" and were still unable to talk at length on the subject). 


the only time i did well, was when i stopped using the teacher for anything else than what they could answer. i used the internet--screw the book, even more vague than the teachers--to shoot out scenarios from the equations themselves, to then tell me more about the nature of the equation, to the point that i knew what to manipulate within the equations in order to achieve my result before i even put pencil to paper. 
in other words, i made fake scenarios that had nothing to do with reality, to make my own map. 


tedious, especially since i was paying them... :dry:. so, i moved onto the medical/science-type stuff, where an explanation and objective markers on "my maps" were easier to come across. 

plus, if you just don't like it, but happen to love other stuff... do the other stuff. seems more like you're trying to fit yourself to something that you're not, because you believe that it's something you should be. Ti-dominance is subjective and can take as many forms as there are people who lead with it. there is no "one Ti to rule them all" scenarios in life.


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## Psychophant (Nov 29, 2013)

Kevin De Smet said:


> Implementation techniques are based on industrially accepted best practices. With tangible evidence for their efficiency and use in industry, what an engineer really has the time and sees the point in, spending his time and efforts on to solve real engineering problems.
> 
> Complete understanding is a charade anyway. Nobody needs complete understanding, it is in fact, impossible. People need to work together each sharing their respective knowledge they (and most importantly, their organisation) has built up over time.
> 
> Some people need to know the maths to code the engineering software but the majority of the engineering community are not software programmers and simply have no use for such an unnecessary abstraction in their day-to-day work. Every second spent not studying mathematics, is a second spent studying something more pertinent.


That's one way to approach it, but certainly not the only way or the best way for all people.


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## Father of Dragons (May 7, 2012)

There's a good chance it's all in your head: There’s one key difference between kids who excel at math and those who don’t – Quartz

I'm taking calculus II right now and there are moments when I get incredibly frustrated. As in, feeling some organic sense of rage that I haven't felt in a long time. Sometimes I feel like dropping it, but the truth is I know that it is all the fault lies with my attitude. At its core math is not hard. Once you learn how to solve a problem it becomes a walk in the park. It's just the barriers to solving a problem are usually _impassable_ unless you have been shown the way already. 

Math is a subject where you can't just bullshit or wing it and get good grades. In other subjects I can often do very well without really putting in any effort. It's part of the reason I'm forcing myself to stay in Calc: it might be the best kind of training I could ever get. It forces you to be rigorous - emotionally as well as mentally. It is a field where (minus the math virtuosos) those who excel are those who put in the hours and tough it out.


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## pianofire (Jan 9, 2015)

Father of Dragons said:


> Math is a subject where you can't just bullshit or wing it and get good grades. In other subjects I can often do very well without really putting in any effort. It's part of the reason I'm forcing myself to stay in Calc: it might be the best kind of training I could ever get. It forces you to be rigorous - emotionally as well as mentally. It is a field where (minus the math virtuosos) those who excel are those who put in the hours and tough it out.


This is precisely why I try and learn as many instruments as possible.


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

Are there any activities, complimentary to just grinding through math problems, that can actually help the brain become better at abstract thinking or whatever math essentially is?


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## pianofire (Jan 9, 2015)

Metasentient said:


> Are there any activities, complimentary to just grinding through math problems, that can actually help the brain become better at abstract thinking or whatever math essentially is?


I think anything based on some sort of system - learning foreign languages, programming code, music - anything like that!


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

pianofire said:


> I think anything based on some sort of system - learning foreign languages, programming code, music - anything like that!


Hm, but foreign languages always came easily to me, but I was absolute shit at math. To my understandings, those two are the right and the left brain hemispheres, respectively. Music, perhaps, I can see how math could play into that.

It'd be interesting to research further though.


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## Psychophant (Nov 29, 2013)

Metasentient said:


> Hm, but foreign languages always came easily to me, but I was absolute shit at math. To my understandings, those two are the right and the left brain hemispheres, respectively. Music, perhaps, I can see how math could play into that.
> 
> It'd be interesting to research further though.


Lol, I'm great at math but I got my only C in highschool in Spanish. Also, you'd get chewed out by a linguist for saying language processing is a right or left brain exclusively.


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

Yomiel said:


> Lol, I'm great at math but I got my only C in highschool in Spanish. Also, you'd get chewed out by a linguist for saying language processing is a right or left brain exclusively.


Lol yeah, I know there's a lot of disagreement on the exact functions of the hemispheres.

Wanna trade? xD Learning objective frameworks versus completely arbitrary ones.


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## Psychophant (Nov 29, 2013)

Metasentient said:


> Lol yeah, I know there's a lot of disagreement on the exact functions of the hemispheres.
> 
> Wanna trade? xD Learning objective frameworks versus completely arbitrary ones.


Haha, no way. It's hard to articulate how much my k-12 education has made me dislike Spanish. Maybe if I become a software engineer, I'll write the piece of software that makes Spanish teachers obsolete.


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## pianofire (Jan 9, 2015)

Metasentient said:


> Hm, but foreign languages always came easily to me, but I was absolute shit at math. .


I have always had exactly the same problem... but I have a theory. Foreign language acquisition does require considerable abstract thinking abilities. You must be able to understand unfamiliar (abstract, if you like) verb structures (systems!), as well as notice patterns in language in order to gain at least some of that intuitive language skill that native speakers have. That sounds all pretty maths-y to me! I think people that are good at language acquisition but bad at maths, although talented at abstract thinking, are simply just stronger at linguistic abstract thought. I wonder if that made any sense haha.


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

Yomiel said:


> Haha, no way. It's hard to articulate how much my k-12 education has made me dislike Spanish. Maybe if I become a software engineer, I'll write the piece of software that makes Spanish teachers obsolete.


Don't understand how that's possible. English is a harder language than Spanish...

Good luck with that ... you'd have to understand Spanish to write those algorithms! Or else work long hours with computational linguists well-versed in both...


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## Psychophant (Nov 29, 2013)

Metasentient said:


> Don't understand how that's possible. English is a harder language than Spanish...
> 
> Good luck with that ... you'd have to understand Spanish to write those algorithms! Or else work long hours with computational linguists well-versed in both...


Eh.. There will always be unemployed Spanish majors around.


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

pianofire said:


> I have always had exactly the same problem... but I have a theory. Foreign language acquisition does require considerable abstract thinking abilities. You must be able to understand unfamiliar (abstract, if you like) verb structures (systems!), as well as notice patterns in language in order to gain at least some of that intuitive language skill that native speakers have. That sounds all pretty maths-y to me! I think people that are good at language acquisition but bad at maths, although talented at abstract thinking, are simply just stronger at linguistic abstract thought. I wonder if that made any sense haha.


Hm, but I'm not sure if it's so much "abstraction" as it is just working within the constraints of some fixed set of syntax/semantics, or a certain set of rules. Which is just memorization and applying those rules in real-time, such as speaking. I'm not dismissing what you said though, just have to look up the exact definitions.

Technically I'm fluent in two languages, passed AP Spanish (but probably forgot everything), and have some knowledge of a few others.

But math, just no, lol. I just have a weird urge to pick it up again for some reason though.


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

Yomiel said:


> Eh.. There will always be unemployed Spanish majors around.


-mean


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Metasentient said:


> Hm, but I'm not sure if it's so much "abstraction" as it is just working within the constraints of some fixed set of syntax/semantics, or a certain set of rules. Which is just memorization and applying those rules in real-time, such as speaking. I'm not dismissing what you said though, just have to look up the exact definitions.
> 
> Technically I'm fluent in two languages, passed AP Spanish, and have some knowledge of a few others.


Learning a language is both concrete and abstract. The syntax, semantics, grammatical rules and spelling are concrete and ultimately need to be understood why they're structured the way it is then memorized. Learning, non-literal sayings like slang, idiosyncrasies and idioms require abstract thinking. That's why poetry is abstract while say, an instruction manual isn't.



Metasentient said:


> But math, just no, lol. I just have a weird urge to pick it up again for some reason though.


You're weird then.  How far did you go with math? You might like calculus. Or if you _don't_ like calculus then you'd probably like discrete math better.


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

MNiS said:


> Learning a language is both concrete and abstract. The syntax, semantics, grammatical rules and spelling are concrete and ultimately need to be understood why they're structured the way it is then memorized. Learning, non-literal sayings like slang, idiosyncrasies and idioms require abstract thinking. That's why poetry is abstract while say, an instruction manual isn't.


 I should have very good abstract thinking skills then, but that 'transference of abstraction' doesn't quite seem to be the case in real life. Poets are generally not mathematicians or vice versa, unless you're thinking of savants... They're probably still different types of intelligence/skillsets, just lumped under "abstract". 



MNiS said:


> You're weird then.  How far did you go with math? You might like calculus. Or if you _don't_ like calculus then you'd probably like discrete math better.


That I agree with... and I won't answer the question because it's embarrassing. I'll look at those, though. Dunno, just a persistent feeling I kept having for several months that I should revisit the subject.


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## pianofire (Jan 9, 2015)

Metasentient said:


> Hm, but I'm not sure if it's so much "abstraction" as it is just working within the constraints of some fixed set of syntax/semantics, or a certain set of rules. Which is just memorization and applying those rules in real-time, such as speaking. I'm not dismissing what you said though, just have to look up the exact definitions.</quote>
> 
> This does a way better job at explaining what I meant:
> 
> ...


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## Psychophant (Nov 29, 2013)

Metasentient said:


> -mean


I know.. I realized that was a really terrible thing to say after I posted it. Sorry Spanish majors.


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

Yomiel said:


> I know.. I realized that was a really terrible thing to say after I posted it. Sorry Spanish majors.


Reluctantly forgiven.


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

pianofire said:


> Metasentient said:
> 
> 
> > Hm, but I'm not sure if it's so much "abstraction" as it is just working within the constraints of some fixed set of syntax/semantics, or a certain set of rules. Which is just memorization and applying those rules in real-time, such as speaking. I'm not dismissing what you said though, just have to look up the exact definitions.</quote>
> ...


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## Psychophant (Nov 29, 2013)

Metasentient said:


> Reluctantly forgiven.


Well you're not a Spanish major. I never would have made that joke if I were talking to one.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Metasentient said:


> I should have very good abstract thinking skills then, but that 'transference of abstraction' doesn't quite seem to be the case in real life. Poets are generally not mathematicians or vice versa, unless you're thinking of savants... They're probably still different types of intelligence/skillsets, just lumped under "abstract".


If you can understand beyond the literal then you have an understanding of the abstract. That's exactly what abstract means, the general or dissociated from the specific. No, poets are generally not mathematicians and vice versa but it'd be helpful to note that one is abstract language and the other is abstract logic. Or at it's core, Ni and Ti.



Metasentient said:


> That I agree with... and I won't answer the question because it's embarrassing. I'll look at those, though. Dunno, just a persistent feeling I kept having for several months that I should revisit the subject.


I know what you mean. I really want to start taking classes at jr college again. Even though I don't like it much, some programming courses might be useful.


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

Yomiel said:


> Well you're not a Spanish major. I never would have made that joke if I were talking to one.


Well, I just appointed myself on their behalf. Problem?

Aaand... not to be prickly, but was that _really_ a joke? roud:


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## Psychophant (Nov 29, 2013)

Metasentient said:


> Well, I just appointed myself on their behalf. Problem?
> 
> Aaand... not to be prickly, but was that _really_ a joke? roud:


I thought it was kinda funny..


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## pianofire (Jan 9, 2015)

Metasentient said:


> pianofire said:
> 
> 
> > Eat something lol
> ...


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

MNiS said:


> If you can understand beyond the literal then you have an understanding of the abstract. That's exactly what abstract means, the general or dissociated from the specific. No, poets are generally not mathematicians and vice versa but it'd be helpful to note that one is abstract language and the other is abstract logic. Or at it's core, Ni and Ti.


I haven't quite done my MBTI homework... did you mean those respectively?



MNiS said:


> I know what you mean. I really want to start taking classes at jr college again. Even though I don't like it much, some programming courses might be useful.


Definitely. But don't waste your time at a college, just do it yourself online. So many great tutorials out there.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Metasentient said:


> I haven't quite done my MBTI homework... did you mean those respectively?
> 
> Definitely. But don't waste your time at a college, just do it yourself online. So many great tutorials out there.


Yes, I meant both of them respectively. Ni is often involved with abstract language and Ti with abstract logic.

Ehhh, when it comes to something I don't really want to teach myself, I'll learn better in a structured environment. I'll be less likely to slack off or end up with gaps in my knowledge. I might even take them Pass/No Pass, although I've gotten A's in every course I've taken.

Also, if you want to learn something both language-y and math-y then I'd suggest probability. :wink:


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

MNiS said:


> Yes, I meant both of them respectively. Ni is often involved with abstract language and Ti with abstract logic.
> 
> Ehhh, when it comes to something I don't really want to teach myself, I'll learn better in a structured environment. I'll be less likely to slack off or end up with gaps in my knowledge. I might even take them Pass/No Pass, although I've gotten A's in every course I've taken.
> 
> Also, if you want to learn something both language-y and math-y then I'd suggest probability. :wink:


Oh. Then I might be INxJ after all.

Eh, I've gotten good grades in my courses as well, but they don't mean anything. Even my so-called "Advanced" C++ programming class was kind of idiotic, and it was supposedly a pretty good college. Generally, uni courses (or any formal courses) don't really teach anything practical or applicable... and you'll probably end up with even more gaps in your knowledge. I think that at least in this field, autodidactic is the only way to go.

Yeah, self-motivation is essential ... but the tutorials are quite well-structured, and there's a million helpful communities online if you want to interact with people.

Okay so that's calc, discrete math, and I'm guessing some upper level of probability.


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## Psychophant (Nov 29, 2013)

MNiS said:


> Yes, I meant both of them respectively. Ni is often involved with abstract language and Ti with abstract logic.
> 
> Ehhh, when it comes to something I don't really want to teach myself, I'll learn better in a structured environment. I'll be less likely to slack off or end up with gaps in my knowledge. I might even take them Pass/No Pass, although I've gotten A's in every course I've taken.
> 
> Also, if you want to learn something both language-y and math-y then I'd suggest probability. :wink:


It's definitely helpful to get a few intro courses, but if you want to actually be a good programmer, you're going to have to take some of your own time learning algorithms and useful technologies, because intro classes will just have you traversing binary trees and getting acquainted with the basics of a single language. I'm quite competent at a variety of languages, and I mostly taught myself in highschool, so it's very possible to find the info you need on the interwebz.
@Metasentient Oh, and MNiS lies. Take matrix algebra. It's not that hard and incredibly practical.


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

^ What he said, he seems to know his shit. 
@_Yomiel_ That sounds scary, but will do, lol. They've all gotta converge at some point...... right? :crazy:

I don't really mind difficult, as long as I have the base down. That's all that "difficult" really is, right?


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## Psychophant (Nov 29, 2013)

Metasentient said:


> ^ What he said, he seems to know his shit.
> @_Yomiel_ That sounds scary, but will do, lol. They've all gotta converge at some point...... right? :crazy:
> 
> I don't really mind difficult, as long as I have the base down. That's all that "difficult" really is, right?


You're the one with a degree lol. I just took two intro Java classes last year.


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

Yomiel said:


> You're the one with a degree lol. I just took two intro Java classes last year.


Nah, I'm not worth listening to. :crazy:

In any case, I think we've established that self-teaching is the way to go.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Metasentient said:


> Oh. Then I might be INxJ after all.
> 
> Eh, I've gotten good grades in my courses as well, but they don't mean anything. Even my so-called "Advanced" C++ programming class was kind of idiotic, and it was supposedly a pretty good college. Generally, uni courses (or any formal courses) don't really teach anything practical or applicable... and you'll probably end up with even more gaps in your knowledge. I think that at least in this field, autodidactic is the only way to go.
> 
> Yeah, self-motivation is essential ... but the tutorials are quite well-structured, and there's a million helpful communities online if you want to interact with people.


I'm not learning any programming because I intend to use it. Only to retain it as knowledge and if I ever have to work with programmers, I'll have a better understanding where a programmer might be coming from. I don't ever see myself writing a line of code other than maybe on a project basis or some macros in which case I'd just teach myself the relevant things within the timeline of the project. Besides, I actually enjoy talking to people so course formats don't bother me, even if I won't learn anything practical because I'm not trying to be a programmer. That would actually be several steps backward for me, career-wise.



Metasentient said:


> Okay so that's calc, discrete math, and I'm guessing some upper level of probability.


I found engineering probability to be challenging but only because I wasn't familiar with the language. I was taking it with electrical engineers who'd already taken several probability courses before. I thought the problems were pretty interesting though which is why I'd recommended it.


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

MNiS said:


> I'm not learning any programming because I intend to use it. Only to retain it as knowledge and if I ever have to work with programmers, I'll have a better understanding where a programmer might be coming from. I don't ever see myself writing a line of code other than maybe on a project basis or some macros in which case I'd just teach myself the relevant things within the timeline of the project. Besides, I actually enjoy talking to people so course formats don't bother me, even if I won't learn anything practical because I'm not trying to be a programmer. That would actually be several steps backward for me, career-wise.
> 
> I found engineering probability to be challenging but only because I wasn't familiar with the language. I was taking it with electrical engineers who'd already taken several probability courses before. I thought the problems were pretty interesting though which is why I'd recommended it.


Oh. If you're not really going for direct applicability, then yeah, I'd agree with your reasoning for taking courses. Eh, I'm not really sure that if such a situation came up, you'd be expected to perform that work, but it makes sense. In any case, it'd be a learning experience...

Wow, those types of problems sound rigorous even for an electrical engineer... and that's not an easy field in the first place. :shocked: At the same time, it does sound interesting.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Metasentient said:


> Nah, I'm not worth listening to. :crazy:


Noted.



Metasentient said:


> In any case, I think we've established that self-teaching is the way to go.


To be quite serious and honest, I don't know what kind of poor educational choices you've made but you'll get nowhere in life thinking that. Try to be positive, not bitter. Anyway, I'll probably start taking programming courses at college again when my life is more settled.


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

MNiS said:


> Noted.
> 
> 
> 
> To be quite serious and honest, I don't know what kind of poor educational choices you've made but you'll get nowhere in life thinking that. Try to be positive, not bitter. Anyway, I'll probably start taking programming courses at college again when my life is more settled.


Both positivity/negativity represent biased attitudes. (Why does spellcheck only flag 'positivity'?)

It's better to just be realistic.

Yup, makes sense.


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