# Why the competition between INTJs and INTPs?



## the3rdpower

TheOpenDoor said:


> If it's a game between who's the evil mastermind...
> 
> INTPs don't stand a chance. They reek incompetence.


No disrespect to all xNTJs but this just goes to show... You obviously do not have any idea what you are talking about.


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## absentminded

@lirulin

What are you referring to?


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## Transcendence

INTPs are far too lazy to actually set out to conquer and develop a taste for evil laughters.


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## Beyond_B

lirulin said:


> Okay, _some_ of us have a sense of humour...


*chuckles*


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## lirulin

absentminded said:


> @lirulin
> 
> What are you referring to?


I am among INTPs. I cannot make generalisations. They do not understand generalisations. They consider a single outlier a magnificently important thing, and damn all the other data points....if I am in Ti central, I must add caveats to my statements. Frankly, I am lucky I caught it before someone leapt down my throat. It could have gotten ugly - and I am too tired to cause carnage right now. I'll be needing much more coffee, first.


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## absentminded

lirulin said:


> I am among INTPs. I cannot make generalisations. They do not understand generalisations. They consider a single outlier a magnificently important thing, and damn all the other data points....if I am in Ti central, I must add caveats to my statements. Frankly, I am lucky I caught it before someone leapt down my throat. It could have gotten ugly - and I am too tired to cause carnage right now. I'll be needing much more coffee, first.


We understand generalizations just fine. We don't like them.

If I hadn't thought you were referring to someone's response in the thread, I would have jumped down your throat...figuratively speaking.


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## Figure

absentminded said:


> We understand generalizations just fine. We don't like them.


Then you probably don't understand them, at least not the way we do.


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## lirulin

LXPilot said:


> Then you probably don't understand them, at least not the way we do.


True. They have not achieved full enlightenment. roud:


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## Beyond_B

Watching is fun too...


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## absentminded

LXPilot said:


> Then you probably don't understand them, at least not the way we do.


Maybe, maybe not.

The fact remains that generalizations inherently remove information from the transaction that the receiver may have an interest in or need for. Hence the psychotic Ti stance.


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## Figure

lirulin said:


> True. They have not achieved full enlightenment. roud:










...........................
'@_absentminded_ 
No, the fact that you even see the possibility of not most certainly suggests that you don't. The problem with the "psychotic Ti stance" is that very few people are interested enough to care about such subtlety. I don't need to be precise with that, the world too often proves it on its own.


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## lirulin

absentminded said:


> Hence the* psychotic *Ti stance.


Yep. 10char


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## the3rdpower

*There is no evil...*

As a P'er I believe life is about perspective... Ideas are inherent within creating a depth that is lacking in lopsided J'ers. I would not be so arrogant to put myself ahead or behind any one but for argument sake any well developed xNTP is more than capable of matching and surpassing any xNTJ. The argument of one over the other at specific tasks is what makes life what it is... Full of uncanny diversity. While I joke with the best or them I see value in the xNTJ. Their skills on the frontline are invaluable but the frame of their decision making capacities are limited to a staunch idealism that borderlines tyranical in the most undeveloped circumstances. 

Simple fact when contemplating what is good and what is evil one must realize that the bounds of reality are created by man... A perfect being with a desire for ultimate control. Perfection in a imperfect system. Life is is the ultimate game. Man may dictate the laws but pioneers break them. True evolution requires desire to be greater than ones genetic coding dictates. Still, no growth comes out of disorder. It takes the right blend of imagination and inspiring direction to lead. In the end mutual acceptance of strengths and weaknesses creates change. There is no right. There is no wrong. There is only the driving desire for progression of ones genes. 

United we stand... Divides we fall.

Sent from my SGH-i917 using Board Express


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## lirulin

the3rdpower said:


> Simple fact when contemplating what is good and what is evil one must realize that the bounds of reality are created by man...


Nope, they are dictated by nature that has no interest in petty human perspectives. We are merely an insignificant little speck of reality and only such delusions of grandeur as the above to serve as comfort in the face of our insignificance. :tongue:


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## Beyond_B

"Why the competition?" not "who is more competitive?" ...


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## Chrysantheist

The little bit of nuance that INTJs ignore when generalizing is what leads to the collapse of certain arguments and the smug INTP "told you so" grin that makes us famous. Don't be jealous.


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## the3rdpower

lirulin said:


> Nope, they are dictated by nature that has no interest in petty human perspectives. We are merely an insignificant little speck of reality and only such delusions of grandeur as the above to serve as comfort in the face of our insignificance. :tongue:


Social order via law is a man created rationality. While we may be rational animals we are still man. Regardless... We are speaking the same language and I can understand your point. It is valued. There is truth in what you say. 

Sent from my SGH-i917 using Board Express


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## RogueWave

I think this is a fair representation of the "rivalry", with the father representing the opinion of the 14 other types.


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## lirulin

the3rdpower said:


> Social order via law is a man created rationality. While we may be rational animals we are still man. Regardless... We are speaking the same language and I can understand your point. It is valued. There is truth in what you say.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-i917 using Board Express


Social order is an inconvenient pain in the ass....:tongue: also, do you really need to say "Man"?

I think most of the conflicts arise in forgetting which perspective each is coming from, as each worldview requires very different standards of evidence - and yet we tend to understand and can acknowledge the other worldview even if we do not stand inside it.


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## the3rdpower

lirulin said:


> Social order is an inconvenient pain in the ass....:tongue: also, do you really need to say "Man"?


Man as in short for humanity. I rightfully as such do know "a man's place" in respects to "a woman's place" in the natural order of things. Western societies, though negative perceptions of the female, puts forth a bias and short sightedness which is meant to be that way. In nature that that creates lifes really rules the world. The social construct is only a means to balance what could very be an unbalanced order. At the end of the day the sexes are balanced in a "Red Queen." Even though both sides always feel they are being shortsided things are in reality closely balanced. Simple fact is man cannot live without woman. Woman could live without man (if one looks at the capabilities of asexual organisms.)

This view could be considered contrary to the natural evolution of things considering that a woman's given power to rule all in an asexual manner is a plausible state of evolution. I do believe (and at times feel) deep inside though that the harmony that is existence between man and woman drives an ideal foundation for further evolution... one of thought and spirit.



lirulin said:


> I think most of the conflicts arise in forgetting which perspective each is coming from, as each worldview requires very different standards of evidence - and yet we tend to understand and can acknowledge the other worldview even if we do not stand inside it


Well spoken... very well spoken. Ignorance is not stepping into another's shoes to see the beauty that they see. I see the beauty in the order because my vision is chaotic.


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## Pelao

absentminded said:


> @Pelao
> 
> Why infamy?
> 
> Shouldn't it be gratitude and wonder? We overcame the surly repulsive barrier between theory and practice. That the war between the subjective and objective has yet to be seen.


Because EVERYBODY knows what happened next. There was still distrust, irrational as may be, and soon began the underpinnings for the P/J civil war. I remember it as if it were yesterday.... /daydream

Honestly, it was wrong choice on my part. I was thinking of TDR's speech and for whatever reason it stuck. oh well



absentminded said:


> The INTJs are still taking us seriously. :dry:


And yes, apparently so. :sigh:


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## Chinchilla

INTPs are stronger thinkers than INTJs. INTPs weakest function is Fe, which deals with other people's feelings more than their own. The INTJ's tertiary function is Fi, which deals with their own emotions and values. So in reality INTJs are more "feely" than INTPs. Problem INTJs?

Edit to add: That's why INTJs tend to be more philosophical than INTPs, they have Fi (personally I think philosophy can be a waste of time). I would even go so far as to say that INTPs with a well developed Fe could be very good leaders, due to them being able to make logical decisions regardless of other people's opinions (Ti) but still appealing to other people's emotions (Fe) and being open to new ideas (Ne). Leadership in an INTP is more political while the leadership in an INTJ would be more militaristic.


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## Chinchilla

Oh, and INTJs are too sure of themselves. INTJs can tend to get narrow minded about an opinion and will not realize that they are wrong. That leads to weak leadership, due to them being to concrete in their actions. They can really screw things up if they do not change their actions or plans before it is too late, i.e., they are inflexible. 

INTPs cannot make a decision without changing their mind the next day. They are too open minded and they can argue for many sides at once. They can seem inconsistent in their opinions, even when it works out in their head. That weakens their leadership ability because people will not think they are sure of themselves.


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## lirulin

INTPs are far more insecure...


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## Chrysantheist

lirulin said:


> INTPs are far more insecure...


That's because we want people to get our jokes. :laughing:


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## Figure

Chinchilla said:


> Oh, and INTJs are too sure of themselves....That leads to weak leadership, due to them being to concrete in their actions...they are inflexible.


Our "smell" must be better than yours.


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## alextyrian

alextyrian said:


> Ni-Te sees Ti-Ne as irrationally complicating obviously simple ideas.


Predicts:


Abraxas said:


> The entire debate and central idea of this thread is completely invalid.


Which elicited a reaction of:


alextyrian said:


> Ti-Ne sees Ni-Te as irrationally simplifying obviously complex ideas.


Sorry to be so impersonal about this, but I need to go to bed. I can say briefly that I think of this as more of a Ni/Ne dynamic than Te/Ti dynamic, and definitely not completely invalid. I mean, the animosity in some of the replies in this thread is kind of hard to miss (scroll up a little if you disagree). I think there's something to be learned here.


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## Abraxas

You're right.

Some INTPs do seem to be showing a bit of animosity.


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## Coppertony

Dudes, listen to the ENTP, we just gotta chill, bros.


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## antiant

I saw who created this thread, then I thought, "Figures." Now I leave.


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## Mendi the ISFJ

antiant said:


> I saw who created this thread, then I thought, "Figures." Now I leave.


thanks so much... more room for the rest


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## Mendi the ISFJ

Abraxas said:


> The entire debate and central idea of this thread is completely invalid.


http://personalitycafe.com/intj-forum-scientists/65192-if-you-saw-intp-tied-train-tracks.html


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## Monty

edit:decided i didnt really want to have a part in the madness so i erased most of my answer
but i just wanted to say that im sure most intps and intjs who are emotionally healthy would think its silly to think theres a better type. (or let alone fight about the thought of it)


i dont think that mendi deserves so many people hating her thread. she posted a good question.
and i think that the people who are insulting her need to calm down


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## Abraxas

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> http://personalitycafe.com/intj-forum-scientists/65192-if-you-saw-intp-tied-train-tracks.html


Seriously?

Are we children or what? Come ON. The thread is a JOKE.

And frankly, so is this one.

If there are any INTPs or INTJs who feel offended or griefed by the 'antics' of anyone on these forums, that's what we have moderators for.

And if you're talking about just in general, well h-o-l-y shit. Welcome to planet EARTH. Get over it, you'll be dead soon, and there's so much to do besides WHINE over being PICKED on.

... Christ. This whole thread is nothing but a stupid cock-fight over nothing. It's entire purpose is just to generate hate and misgivings between two archetypes over absolutely nothing by calling everyone out to lay their burdens in plain sight and act like a bitch in public, hoping for a sympathy vote so we can all do "AWW, he was so MEAN! THERE THERE, I feel your pain!"

*just shakes his head and walks off*

@antiant was right, I'm done as well. Enjoy your pissing contest.


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## beth x

I don't have any competition with anyone. I'm actually anti-competitive.

INTPs are oranges and INTJs are apples and before anyone starts with the which is better, oranges or apples it could be the other way round I don't give a fuck...heh.


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## MissJordan

Empecinado said:


> I thought this thread was about getting the most chicks. WTF.


INTJs and INTPs.... _Getting chicks....?_


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## MiriMiriAru

I do not really comprehend how there can be actual animosity in this thread (there appears to be some, for some reason), or anywhere else on this site, between INTPs and INTJs (outside of actual disagreements on particular topics). I find the INTJs to write some of the more amusing posts (in the intentional sense, not the I'm amused condescendingly sense) here, and some of my favourite posters are from among their ranks. The whole premise of this thread, and the auto-hatred one as well, is quite bizarre. Isn't most of the back and forth simply witty banter? I think someone injected some a little too much seriousness in here somewhere.


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## alextyrian

alextyrian said:


> Ni-Te sees Ti-Ne as irrationally complicating obviously simple ideas.
> Ti-Ne sees Ni-Te as irrationally simplifying obviously complex ideas.





> The thread is a JOKE. And frankly, so is this one. (If I read into it to paraphrase: You're turning something simple/unimportant into something complicated, or spending too much time on it instead of thinking about something that can be used practically for something, or some variation thereof.)
> 
> And if you're talking about just in general, well h-o-l-y shit. Welcome to planet EARTH. Get over it, you'll be dead soon, and there's so much to do besides WHINE over being PICKED on. (Read: You're turning something simple into something complicated.)
> 
> ... Christ. This whole thread is nothing but a stupid cock-fight over nothing. (Read: You're turning something simple into something complicated.)


It's insensitive to say so, I realize, but the argument of "This whole thread is nothing but a stupid cock-fight over nothing" is an example of the dynamic this thread was created to discuss. As is this response.

I feel like the major sticking point on my statement on page 6 is the use of the words rational and irrational. So INTJs, how would you revise it to make it more agreeable to you?


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## alextyrian

Zombie Jesus said:


> I do not really comprehend how there can be actual animosity in this thread (there appears to be some, for some reason), or anywhere else on this site, between INTPs and INTJs (outside of actual disagreements on particular topics).





Zombie Jesus said:


> The whole premise of this thread, and the auto-hatred one as well, is quite bizarre. Isn't most of the back and forth simply witty banter? I think someone injected some a little too much seriousness in here somewhere.


It's surprising to me that you're surprised that this thread exists, or is playing out exactly the way it is. I knew exactly what I was getting into as soon as I clicked on the thread. This animosity comes across to me in loads of other places, and honestly I recognize it in myself.

And your response is particularly interesting considering your *Ti-Ni-Ne-Te*-Si-Se-Fi-Fe cognitive functions inventory.


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## Empecinado

MissJordan said:


> INTJs and INTPs.... _Getting chicks....?_


Chicken sandwich.


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## ALNF1031

Sanskrit said:


> Because it was a joke?
> 
> 
> 
> It sure helps though. Hard to be smart if you don't have your facts straight.


Memorizing lots of facts =/= True facts. You could have memorized an entire book on something and be misinformed.


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## Kozy

> Because it was a joke?


Well no shit lol. I said "Not to be rude, but why should your opinion should be taken seriously when you advertise such bias like this?"


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## Sanskrit

Alddous1031 said:


> Memorizing lots of facts =/= True facts. You could have memorized an entire book on something and be misinformed.


That is of course true, but if you have no ability to memorize facts, you're not going to learn the right or the wrong ones.



Kozy said:


> Well no shit lol. I said "Not to be rude, but why should your opinion should be taken seriously when you advertise such bias like this?"


And you are still missing the point that it was a joke? There is no bias, unlike the one you seem to present with your grandiose praising of P types as the sole creative thinkers in the human race, as if my little joke somehow bruised your ego. 
If it did, I am not sorry, I don't really care about your ego.


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## Kozy

> And you are still missing the point that it was a joke? There is no bias, unlike the one you seem to present with your grandiose praising of P types as the sole creative thinkers in the human race, as if my little joke somehow bruised your ego.
> If it did, I am not sorry, I don't really care about your ego.


For the third time you haven't read what I'm typing. Please read what I say thoroughly so you can actually understand what I'm conveying instead of getting so hyped up and sweaty in the internet disagreement that you become upset and start insulting others. Remember that using ad hominem attacks only weakens your arguments and makes the people reading your posts not like you. For some people (you), having a sort of delusion of their own ego fueled by making asses out of themselves publicly is more important than having communicating information, which is what I'm interested in.

Here's what I said for the third time. If you can't understand the point I'm making for the _third time_ then you're only affirming these heaps of negative judgements I have against you and I'll make a mental note to dumb down my speech for you.

"Not to be rude, but why should your opinion should be taken seriously when you advertise such bias like this?"


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## luemb

I think intelligence is better measured by the speed at which you learn and synthesize and connect new ideas and thoughts. I am aware that that is a vague statement, but you know you are talking to an intelligent person when you state something and they "get it" right away. If you can't connect the facts or study the validity of the facts though they are useless to you. As to what you do with your newly gained knowledge, that is an INTP vs INTJ difference. An INTJ would use it or decide that it is not useful and probably forget it. An INTP would keep it and think about it and see what other new insight can be gained by it.


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## luemb

Kozy said:


> For the third time you haven't read what I'm typing. Please read what I say thoroughly so you can actually understand what I'm conveying instead of getting so hyped up and sweaty in the internet disagreement that you become upset and start insulting others. Remember that using ad hominem attacks only weakens your arguments and makes the people reading your posts not like you. For some people (you), having a sort of delusion of their own ego fueled by making asses out of themselves publicly is more important than having communicating information, which is what I'm interested in.
> 
> Here's what I said for the third time. If you can't understand the point I'm making for the _third time_ then you're only affirming these heaps of negative judgements I have against you and I'll make a mental note to dumb down my speech for you.
> 
> "Not to be rude, but why should your opinion should be taken seriously when you advertise such bias like this?"


Seriously. He was joking. He doesn't actually think he is better than INTPs. It is a form of sarcastic hyperbole used to portray an obviously wrong position and show how ridiculous it is. 

I can't believe I'm wading into a fight for an INTJ... 

EDIT: The above is another example of sarcasm. I can believe it, because I'm doing it. It is just amusing in light of the topic of this thread that INTPs and INTJs do sometimes stick together.


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## ALNF1031

listentothemountains said:


> Seriously. He was joking. He doesn't actually think he is better than INTPs. It is a form of sarcastic hyperbole used to portray an obviously wrong position and show how ridiculous it is.
> 
> I can't believe I'm wading into a fight for an INTJ...


INTJs are people too. I guess...


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## Kozy

Oh god. I guess I'll have to explain simply.

I'm aware he's joking, it's still sabotaging his credibility. That, along with the ad hominem arguments makes it difficult to feel confident in his intelligence or opinions. That is what I'm inquiring about when I say "Not to be rude, but why should your opinion should be taken seriously when you advertise such bias like this?"


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## luemb

Kozy said:


> Oh god. I guess I'll have to explain simply.
> 
> I'm aware he's joking, it's still sabotaging his credibility. That, along with the ad hominem arguments makes it difficult to feel confident in his intelligence or opinions. That is what I'm inquiring about when I say "Not to be rude, but why should your opinion should be taken seriously when you advertise such bias like this?"


Hm. Very interesting perspective. I don't think his credibility is sabotaged at all by him showing that he has a deeper understanding of the situation by making a complex sarcastic joke. I wasn't bothered by it at all, and, in fact, respect him the more for it. Must be a T vs F thing.


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## Sanskrit

Kozy said:


> Oh god. I guess I'll have to explain simply.
> 
> I'm aware he's joking, it's still sabotaging his credibility. That, along with the ad hominem arguments makes it difficult to feel confident in his intelligence or opinions. That is what I'm inquiring about when I say "Not to be rude, but why should your opinion should be taken seriously when you advertise such bias like this?"


Ad hominem would be if I called you a jerkwad and that it makes your points invalid. Check your terminology before you put a foot in your mouth. I just said that your motivations (ego) is not of my concern. I didn't insult you at all, only mentioned a bias you yourself presented and raising facts plainly to see up to observation is not an ad hominem either. Also there was no fallacious claims about you, only a guess of your motivations to demonstrate I have no clue what your beef with me is.

But now I am starting to see what your beef is. And it rhymes with "whoosh", which my joke did with you.


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## absentminded

Alddous1031 said:


> INTJs are people too. I guess...


We need a new feeler radar. They're coming out of the woodwork and it's not making a peep.



Kozy said:


> I'm aware he's joking, it's still sabotaging his credibility. That, along with the ad hominem arguments makes it difficult to feel confident in his intelligence or opinions. That is what I'm inquiring about when I say "Not to be rude, but why should your opinion should be taken seriously when you advertise such bias like this?"


No, actually, it isn't.

First, ad hominem is a personal attack *in place of an argument*. Personal attacks are not ad hominem if they are accompanied by a cogent argument. They aren't necessarily nice, but they don't invalidate one's stance the way ad hominem attacks do.

Second, INTPs and INTJs are probably more aware of their similarities, differences weaknesses and so forth than any two other types in all of MBTI. An ENFP trying to defend INTPs from INTJs is an exercise in ill-informed futility.

Third, it's obvious that INTPs can be productive, otherwise Einstein would never have finished his theory of relativity. It's the nature and purpose of that productivity that differentiates us and we both understand that very well. Both INTJs and INTPs are well aware of this fact and attempting to deny it in earnest would be blatantly illogical. Surely you're not accusing us of being illogical.

Fourth, INTJs are actually more creative than INTPs. INTJs' dominant function is introverted intuition, a perceiving function. INTPs' dominant function is introverted thinking, a judging function. Your reasoning, in its entirety, is founded on misinformation and bias.

Fifth, the fact that @Sanskrit was joking is more than enough for us INTPs. If he had been serious, we would have torn him into little logical pieces.

Finally, you are a feeler. You are in a forum for Intuitive thinkers. What makes you think we're going to put on airs or masks to suit your whims in *our* forum? We don't care about your opinion and our "credibility" with you is about as important. If you come into our forum, you are implicitly promising to put up with our preferred modes of interaction.

Would you march into a stranger's house and demand that they paint their house because you find its current coloration offensive? If not, please be quiet.


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## ALNF1031

absentminded said:


> We need a new feeler radar. They're coming out of the woodwork and it's not making a peep.


Lol. Well, according to the percentages, I'm dangerously close to being an ISFP =3


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## General Lee

I like these forums. I never have to complete a defense of someone. By the time I am halfway done someone else has already taken it up.


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## Kozy

> But now I am starting to see what your beef is. And it rhymes with "whoosh", which my joke did with you.


You misunderstand for the 5th time. Here's the other four times.


> That's not my point, my point is compensation.





> Well no shit lol. I said...





> For the third time you haven't read what I'm typing. Please read what I say thoroughly so you can actually understand what I'm conveying





> Oh god. I guess I'll have to explain simply.


Listentothemountains understood when I explained because she's not overly defensive. Here's her post acknowledging what I was saying.

_Hm. Very interesting perspective. I don't think his credibility is sabotaged at all by him showing that he has a deeper understanding of the situation by making a complex sarcastic joke. I wasn't bothered by it at all, and, in fact, respect him the more for it. Must be a T vs F thing._

Practice one of your weak points, looking at things from other people's perspective. I've attempted four times to simply communicate that you're misunderstanding me, yet you behave like a child throwing a tantrum in comparison to my behavior. Take a break, calm down, and let your brain relax out of the fight or flight mode I put you in when your intelligence was challenged. Notice how the XXXP understands, yet you're still concerned with your ego.



> Ad hominem would be if I called you a jerkwad and that it makes your points invalid. Check your terminologybefore you put a foot in your mouth. I just said that your motivations (ego) is not of my concern. I didn't insult you at all, only mentioned a bias you yourself presented and raising facts plainly to see up to observation is not an ad hominem either.


The definition of ad hominem from wikipedia, where you just linked.

_"An ad hominem (Latin: "to the man"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to link the truth of a claim to a negative characteristic or belief of the person advocating it."_

Here's what you said.

_There is no bias, unlike the one you seem to present with your grandiose praising of P types as the sole creative thinkers in the human race, as if my little joke somehow bruised your ego._

You are linking my argument that open-mindedness and creativity is an important part of intelligence to a negative characteristic that you claim I possess, being unfairly bias towards P's, or being egotistical.

In simpler words, you're using a negative quality that you've projected onto me to damage my argument. This is considered an ad hominem argument.



> Also there was no fallacious claims about you, only a guess of your motivations to demonstrate I have no clue what your beef with me is.


There's no beef, I've just asked you the same question 5 times which you've refused to answer, and now that you're so invested in this discussion, it's too embarrassing for you to admit you're wrong.


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## beth x

All aboard...next stop Digressionville


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## General Lee

Let's stop feeding the troll.


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## MissJordan

Alddous1031 said:


> Memorizing lots of facts =/= True facts. You could have memorized an entire book on something and be misinformed.


_Technically_, there's no evidence that anything is true.

So, we accept things as true, and then we must adjust our ideals when they're reasonably questioned.


Which is to say, memorising facts is important.
But one must always be flexible to letting said facts fall into disregard.


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## MiriMiriAru

What is going on here?

@Kozy, I think you are having some difficulty understanding what is being said to you if you think that @listentothemountains post was in agreement with you. She was simply saying that @Sanskrit's joke was just that, an observant joke (which her previous post to the one you quoted also demonstrates). A joke that was made at the expense of INTPs and which most of us (I'm guessing) found at least a little funny.

I don't know what you are so defensive about. You made a post about how wonderful "P types" are then complained about bias. You were called on it. Then you started a post with "not to be rude...", which is a well known way of saying "I'm about to say something rude, and I don't give a shit if it annoys you, but I don't want you to know that I knew that it was rude and that I don't give a shit". Again you were called on it. Just accept that you're really the only one trying to fight against what was intended and taken (by most of us) as a joke, and that your rather bizarre attempt to defend... no one in particular is making you look fairly ridiculous.


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## Chinchilla

General Lee said:


> You would come home in a body bag with a note asking your family for a refund on the bullet.


Many of the greatest men in history have been assassinated. You know you've had an effect on someone when you have a bullet in your head... or you got caught in a drive by shooting.


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## RogueWave

Kozy said:


> I'd agree that INTJs and INTPs are probably the smartest type. ENTJ's perhaps. But I lean in favor of the INTP's because of *compensation*. INTJ's can apply themselves much easier but suffer creatively, while an INTP applies themselves less, but thinks more. They _are_ called "the thinker."


Don't you mean comprehension? 

Anyway, why are you going to bat for the INTPs when none of us care? It was a joke. We laughed. Don't make this some cause celebre. 

This thread reminds me of how my NT friends and I are in real life. We have three forms of interaction: 1) arguing 2) making fun of each other 3) making fun of each other while arguing

From the outside NF perspective, it's mind boggling that a group of people can do this and consider each other friends and not get offended. 
Because in NF Land it has to be all very harmonious, hand across America, Kumbaya bullshit while the ENFJs and ENFPs perform a spirited duet of "I'm a Little Bit Country" in matching sequin jumpsuits. 

With that being said, I think the INTPs and INTJs need to do a tuxedo tap dance routine of "Anything You Can Do I Can Do Better"


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## General Lee

Chinchilla said:


> Many of the greatest men in history have been assassinated. You know you've had an effect on someone when you have a bullet in your head... or you got caught in a drive by shooting.


Or you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.


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## Chrysantheist

RogueWave said:


> With that being said, I think the INTPs and INTJs need to do a tuxedo tap dance routine of "Anything You Can Do I Can Do Better"


I'm sorry, but with your avatar being what it is, the mere suggestion of a tuxedo tap dance routine immediately makes me think of "Puttin' on the Ritz."


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## Monkey King

Ozymandias said:


> Since you are using Te as the basis of the computing language analogy, wouldn't ENTJ's being lead extrovert thinkers be the INTP's opposite in this case. And Shouldn't we consider ENTJ's as the other most intelligent of the NT's and not INTJ's?
> 
> Oh yes ... i went there


Although I agree with you for the most part, since Ni is secondary, it's actually less natural for ENTJs to work on something from scratch. I think we perfect the system buy not necessarily create the system. 

But if Ni is developed we'd rival both INTPs and INTJs.


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## Ozymandias

Monkey King said:


> Although I agree with you for the most part, since Ni is secondary, it's actually less natural for ENTJs to work on something from scratch. I think we perfect the system buy not necessarily create the system.
> 
> But if Ni is developed we'd rival both INTPs and INTJs.


Are you inferring then that Ti more resembles the perceiving function Ni than it does Te?

Don't forget i was going on the basis of the other comment comparing functions to computer programs therefore i was making that a statement that applies solely to that hypothesis, but really think about it. We truly are system builders, using our Ni for insight to guide the development of a system using Te. Many ENTJ's have been pioneers ex: Bonaparte, Gates etc.

So i will pose the question again. Why wouldn't the comparison of most intelligent NT be between INTP and ENTJ? They do after all use opposite cognitive functions but in the exact same order. To me, Comparing INTP with INTJ is apples and oranges so to speak.

I think that people automatically use these two types as the "obvious" choice to compare with each other because they are both introverted. But Introversion in itself isn't a great way to measure intelligence. Someone earlier already said that as a criteria to base ourselves on we should take the thinking function into account instead of intuition because it is a judging function. It is through this that we interact with the real world. Intuition is something intangible that one can't manifest for others to see. Though we can give structure to a thought process such as we get with the thinking function.

In conclusion I would like to point out that INTP's may be the masters of the inner world of thought and ENTJ's are the masters of the outer world of thought. The results of such intelligence are so different in that the INTP will synthesize and give order to an idea or a thought. The ENTJ's will synthesize and give order to world and people around them. They are opposites and so a comparison of the most intelligent NT should be between these two types.


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## Chinchilla

General Lee said:


> Or you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.


 Accidental assassinations? Those don't happen often. 
Stray bullet to the head? Those don't happen often either.


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## General Lee

Chinchilla said:


> Accidental assassinations? Those don't happen often.
> Stray bullet to the head? Those don't happen often either.


But they do happen.


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## Chinchilla

General Lee said:


> But they do happen.


 Yes but so do many other things.


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## Monkey King

Ozymandias said:


> Are you inferring then that Ti more resembles the perceiving function Ni than it does Te?
> 
> Don't forget i was going on the basis of the other comment comparing functions to computer programs therefore i was making that a statement that applies solely to that hypothesis, but really think about it. We truly are system builders, using our Ni for insight to guide the development of a system using Te. Many ENTJ's have been pioneers ex: Bonaparte, Gates etc.
> 
> So i will pose the question again. Why wouldn't the comparison of most intelligent NT be between INTP and ENTJ? They do after all use opposite cognitive functions but in the exact same order. To me, Comparing INTP with INTJ is apples and oranges so to speak.
> 
> I think that people automatically use these two types as the "obvious" choice to compare with each other because they are both introverted. But Introversion in itself isn't a great way to measure intelligence. Someone earlier already said that as a criteria to base ourselves on we should take the thinking function into account instead of intuition because it is a judging function. It is through this that we interact with the real world. Intuition is something intangible that one can't manifest for others to see. Though we can give structure to a thought process such as we get with the thinking function.
> 
> In conclusion I would like to point out that INTP's may be the masters of the inner world of thought and ENTJ's are the masters of the outer world of thought. The results of such intelligence are so different in that the INTP will synthesize and give order to an idea or a thought. The ENTJ's will synthesize and give order to world and people around them. They are opposites and so a comparison of the most intelligent NT should be between these two types.


I agree, but Te will depend on Ni to give it that insight. It is our creative function after all. Te will only implement what is objectively known as fact/true in the world. It synthesizes whatever Ni finds and puts it in order of relevance to the goal. An underdeveloped Ni can be a huge wall for an ENTJ and I was just highlighting that as a shortfall. 

Ti and Ni is always compared because both are internally driven.

Te and Ti is less interesting to compare because it's given that one operates in the outerworld and the other in the innerworld. What is there to compare? The playing field is in completely different planes. I think to compare strengths it has to be on the same plane--- Ti and Te are in completely different courts; like comparing a sport thats played indoors to that of an outdoor sport.


But honestly, I don't think ENTJs can be compared. The Te-Ni when developed would be quite hard to beat.


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## Ozymandias

Monkey King said:


> I agree, but Te will depend on Ni to give it that insight. It is our creative function after all. Te will only implement what is objectively known as fact/true in the world. It synthesizes whatever Ni finds and puts it in order of relevance to the goal. An underdeveloped Ni can be a huge wall for an ENTJ and I was just highlighting that as a shortfall.
> 
> Ti and Ni is always compared because both are internally driven.
> 
> Te and Ti is less interesting to compare because it's given that one operates in the outerworld and the other in the innerworld. What is there to compare? The playing field is in completely different planes. I think to compare strengths it has to be on the same plane--- Ti and Te are in completely different courts; like comparing a sport thats played indoors to that of an outdoor sport.
> 
> 
> But honestly, I don't think ENTJs can be compared. The Te-Ni when developed would be quite hard to beat.


That bit on the different playing fields, that is what i'm talking about. They are opposites yet they are equal opposites in a yin yang sense. Who is to say that achieving a mastery of the inner world is any better than its opposite? Thus couldn't we say that an achievement such as developing the theory of relativity is on equal grounds with an individual that builds himself an empire from the ground up, a la Microsoft and turning it into one of the largest entities in the world. Though they were developed using different methods each one is as impressive as the last!

INTJ's using Ni-Te are somewhat of a middle ground between the two. Perceiving first, judging second. They're ability to give structure to the world is 2nd class behind their ability to understand it.


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## Monkey King

Ozymandias said:


> That bit on the different playing fields, that is what i'm talking about. They are opposites yet they are equal opposites in a yin yang sense. Who is to say that achieving a mastery of the inner world is any better than its opposite? Thus couldn't we say that an achievement such as developing the theory of relativity is on equal grounds with an individual that builds himself an empire from the ground up, a la Microsoft and turning it into one of the largest entities in the world. Though they were developed using different methods each one is as impressive as the last!
> 
> INTJ's using Ni-Te are somewhat of a middle ground between the two. Perceiving first, judging second. They're ability to give structure to the world is 2nd class behind their ability to understand it.


What I've always been more curious about is a comparison between ENTJ+INTP vs. INTJ+ENTP. One whole versus the other, who would reign supreme and what will allow the other to have more of an advantage. Would Te/Ti be stronger than Ne/Ni?


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## Abraxas

Two ENTJs disagree on a subtle point related to anything in particular.

Three pages later, a solution to America's economic crisis is provided.

Two more, a cure for cancer.

Five more, one of the ENTJs 'wins' the debate, as the other concedes. The world rejoices, we now have unified gravity with the other physical forces, and have figured out whether Ti/Te is more like X, or Y.



Anyway, please continue. This thread just got interesting.


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## Ozymandias

This is great! we build on each others hypotheses and through this so called debating process, we learn. A characteristic of extroverted thinking i think.

Stay tuned...More answers to be unraveled


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## Monkey King

I thought this was a discussion . But Oz good stuff man!


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## lirulin

I would just like to point out to the ENTPs that I _also_ was joking...
*sigh*


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## beth x

Theoretically.....if one type was smarter than another type wouldn't that just make some great chain of being of types? Someone has to be the dumb c**t out of all the types. 


I hear phrenology is the latest craze.....


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## Abraxas

To end the competition, there must be a competition.

It begins with this thread henceforth, and we shall know then which type is better or worse than the other.

If an INTP makes a post in this thread after this post, INTPs lose the competition, and shall be considered worse than INTJs.

If an INTJ makes a post in this thread after this post, INTJs lose the competition, and shall be considered worse than INTPs.

Whatever types _do not_ make a post in this thread after this post, win the competition, and shall be considered better than those types which do post following this post.

Let the tournament begin.


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## Sanskrit

Abraxas said:


> To end the competition, there must be a competition.
> 
> It begins with this thread henceforth, and we shall know then which type is better or worse than the other.
> 
> If an INTP makes a post in this thread after this post, INTPs lose the competition, and shall be considered worse than INTJs.
> 
> If an INTJ makes a post in this thread after this post, INTJs lose the competition, and shall be considered worse than INTPs.
> 
> Whatever types _do not_ make a post in this thread after this post, win the competition, and shall be considered better than those types which do post following this post.
> 
> Let the tournament begin.


Allow me to torpedo your ambitions with this.


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## Chrysantheist

bethdeth said:


> Theoretically.....if one type was smarter than another type wouldn't that just make some great chain of being of types? Someone has to be the dumb c**t out of all the types.
> 
> 
> I hear phrenology is the latest craze.....


Maybe not necessarily. It could be circular. Like INTJ is smarter than INTP who is smarter than ENTP who is smarter than ENTJ who is smarter than INTJ.... (not an actual analysis, just throwing random types in there)


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## beth x

Chrysantheist said:


> Maybe not necessarily. It could be circular. Like INTJ is smarter than INTP who is smarter than ENTP who is smarter than ENTJ who is smarter than INTJ.... (not an actual analysis, just throwing random types in there)


Who said you could change the rules? I figured the Poor ESFP would be the runt of the litter again. I actually know a couple of smart ones.....it makes me think.....if there aren't many ESFPs here on this board then they could actually be smarter than us.


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## Mendi the ISFJ

while i have distracted all the INTPs and INTJs with my thread the ISFJs are taking over the world... .Hahahahaha!!!


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## absentminded

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> while i have distracted all the INTPs and INTJs with my thread the ISFJs are taking over the world... .Hahahahaha!!!


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## General Lee

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> while i have distracted all the INTPs and INTJs with my thread the ISFJs are taking over the world... .Hahahahaha!!!


Good luck with that. The bombing begins in five minutes.


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## Bogspirit

lirulin said:


> I am among INTPs. I cannot make generalisations. They do not understand generalisations. They consider a single outlier a magnificently important thing, and damn all the other data points....if I am in Ti central, I must add caveats to my statements. Frankly, I am lucky I caught it before someone leapt down my throat. It could have gotten ugly - and I am too tired to cause carnage right now. I'll be needing much more coffee, first.


That's precisely the problem I have with the way they think. I mainly like them and find them fun to talk to, to a POINT. But once they start nitpicking to negate the validity of a distinct pattern I can see and am on the track of, I start thinking "whoa....there is almost no such thing as a hundred percent anything, there are so many factors that go into trends, I'm just on the scent of something, it's a hypothesis, I'm not making a definitive statement, you don't have to put the brakes on like that..." or "just because I see something and have the feeling I might be onto an explanatoin doesn't mean I completely understand it or couldn't change my mind"....we are rigid in totally different areas....I have the sensation of a huge burden preventing any forward motion if I hang out with them too much:


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## Mendi the ISFJ

Bogspirit said:


> That's precisely the problem I have with the way they think. I mainly like them and find them fun to talk to, to a POINT. But once they start nitpicking to negate the validity of a distinct pattern I can see and am on the track of, I start thinking "whoa....there is almost no such thing as a hundred percent anything, there are so many factors that go into trends, I'm just on the scent of something, it's a hypothesis, I'm not making a definitive statement, you don't have to put the brakes on like that..." or "just because I see something and have the feeling I might be onto an explanatoin doesn't mean I completely understand it or couldn't change my mind"....we are rigid in totally different areas....I have the sensation of a huge burden preventing any forward motion if I hang out with them too much:


then maybe their concern is with your phrasing of the statement, if youre not making a definitive statement then using "sometimes" "I think" "my opinion is" are important to remember to make that distinction. Maybe u dont need them when talking to some people, but apparently others do.


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## Spades

Personally, I think pointing out each others' flaws will ultimately make us both sharper and wiser in the end ^_^

...as long as I win the argument.


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## Eleventeenth

Monkey King said:


> What I've always been more curious about is a comparison between ENTJ+INTP vs. INTJ+ENTP. One whole versus the other, who would reign supreme and what will allow the other to have more of an advantage. Would Te/Ti be stronger than Ne/Ni?


Interesting. Te/Ti would be much more precise and accurate. Ne/Ni would be more creative and see more possibilities. Both would be very knowledgeable.


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## Eleventeenth

Abraxas said:


> I posted this in a thread in the INTJ forum, and I'll post it here for the INTPs to nit-pick. You guys look hungry in your cages, and I feel awful about it, so here's something to feed your brains with.
> 
> INTPs and INTJs, indeed, all NT types speak what is fundamentally the same language, which is 'NT'. We can think of that as being like the binary language that all machines speak. You know, because we're all robots - us NTs. Beep boop. Lol.
> 
> Anyway, the fundamental difference between Ti and Te is what really distinguishes the four NTs from each other. Ne and Ni play a part as well, but it's more about Ti and Te than it is about Ni and Ne. Ni and Ne are more like how the machine itself is configured, whereas Ti and Te are how it's programmed to operate.
> 
> Ti is like a proprietary language written to work on a specific machine, a machine with specific parts. If it's programmed well, it can harness the power of that unique system to its fullest, and it'll be more efficient and less glitchy than a cross-compatible language that would have to sacrifice some of the efficiency for the ability to work with any particular configuration. Thus, Ti doesn't communicate itself well with machines that aren't similar to itself. It works -great- when communicating with itself, and communicating with the same kind of machine, but not with other machines that use a different configuration, or a different operating system.
> 
> Te is like a cross-compatible language designed to work with any system. It works good with almost any machine, even those not specifically designed to run it, and any system that is proprietary probably won't run it, because it's choosing not to conform to the 'standard' - but that doesn't mean that the proprietary language isn't better. It's just specialized and designed to work better with a certain machine. Te wont necessarily work at all on a machine that isn't designed to support it - some machines will totally reject it entirely, because they're designed from the ground up to run the proprietary language they have 'built in' and nothing else. Nevertheless, Te is more versatile in general, and so it has a wider range of application than Ti. Te sacrifices that internal efficiency for external efficiency.
> 
> From this analogy, what I am driving at is that neither Ti nor Te is inherently better or worse. They're designed to serve a fundamentally different purpose. One is about efficiency, the other is about versatility. Ti is better at getting the most out of a specific configuration. Te is better at getting what it can out of any particular configuration. In the end, Ti is going to do better on a system it was designed for. Te is going to do better on average, but not in specific cases.


I actually agree with this quite a bit. I can't speak for the INTJ's, but as an INTP there is one thing I would add to this assessment. You are right that the INTP is not as versatile "in real time" (in the moment). Because Ti is a "specialized language" (as you say), we aren't able to move fluidly into any situation/system - it takes us a good while to figure out a new system that we're unfamiliar with. That's why INTJ's are more versatile. The part I'd add though, is that if the INTP is given ample time to dabble around in the new system, he'll figure it out really well - even if he's unfamiliar with the new system. If Te is given a new system, it can move into that system quickly and can become fairly effective within that system much sooner than the INTP can. If time is of the essence and results are needed quickly, Te can definitely outperform Ti. If time is not of the essence, and if the INTP is given a week or a few weeks (depending on what we're talking about) for Ti to "go to work" and do it's thing, it will plug into that new system and start exploring all its nuances. And, in due time, it will figure everything out in that new system and Ti will become very compatible with the new system. 

An example: At work, I was given a project on something that I know virtually nothing about. The NTJ's who assigned me the project have much more knowledge and experience than me in that area. So, excited about learning everything I could about this new "system", I went into deep Ti mode. I just hibernated for a few days and learned everything I could. That's all I thought about for many hours. By the time I finished and presented them with data from various angles and my own in-depth analysis of "why" things were happening the way they were in that system, etc., they no longer had to analyze anymore. Any amount of data analyzing and drawing conclusions that they could have possibly done, was already completed in my analysis/presentation. I basically left no stones unturned. Ti went in to the new system and made itself compatible. Only caveat is that it takes some time. If they had asked me to speak on the matter before Ti had a chance to hibernate, I would have looked like a complete idiot. As long as people are patient and allow me to work my Ti magic, results will be very thorough and accurate.


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## cantstopthinking

^post above... typical INTP, get to the point


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## Abraxas

Another way of putting it, as I've put it in a few other threads now, is the difference in judgement.

Ti and Te are both judging functions, but they differ in what they value. For the Ti user, thinking itself is a pleasure, and that's enough. Life is about theorizing and thinking things up for their own sake.

This tends to rub Te users the wrong way sometimes, because Te is all about externalizing your thinking process. What that means, essentially, is that for Te users, thinking is a mere tool - a means to an end. Thinking is not the destination, it's just the journey. You utilize it in order to actually do something, or get something done and accomplished. Ti users are the opposite. They prefer to think about things that can't necessarily ever be resolved, and naturally gravitate towards those kinds of topics, where their subjective opinion can go unchallenged by objective rebuttals. In the realm of the purely subjective, Ti thrives. Ti doesn't really care about tangible results. It only cares about knowledge for its own sake leading to more knowledge and more knowledge. Achievements are internalized, rather than externalized.

TL;DR way of putting it:

Te = Knowledge is power.
Ti = Power is knowledge.


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## cantstopthinking

Te = Knowledge is power.
Ti = Power is knowledge.

cont'd

Knowledge is the power to have the ability to effect change, PRACTICALLY. We draw upon experiences and knowledge for a practical use, not for the sake of Knowledge in whole. We seek knowledge for what we dont know, to solve a problem, not explore the theories(most of the time)


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## MissJordan

1199 said:


> Actually there was a thread in the MBTI forums where INTJPs and INTJ worked together, unfortunately that thread has been removed...


Probably because if the INTJs and INTPs were to _continue collaborating_....


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## APennySaved

Bogspirit said:


> That's precisely the problem I have with the way they think. I mainly like them and find them fun to talk to, to a POINT. But once they start nitpicking to negate the validity of a distinct pattern I can see and am on the track of, I start thinking "whoa....there is almost no such thing as a hundred percent anything, there are so many factors that go into trends, I'm just on the scent of something, it's a hypothesis, I'm not making a definitive statement, you don't have to put the brakes on like that..." or "just because I see something and have the feeling I might be onto an explanatoin doesn't mean I completely understand it or couldn't change my mind"....we are rigid in totally different areas....I have the sensation of a huge burden preventing any forward motion if I hang out with them too much:


Yeah prefacing assertions is how we get past this. "Arguably" will go a long wake with us because it openly acknowledges the fact that we are able to argue with whatever you're about to say. Which (might) temper the trait typical compulsion to actually do it in the absence of true need, as we loathe redundancy.


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## APennySaved

If you're on the scent of a trail, so-to-speak, we will try to bring your house of cards down because we do our trail scenting silently in our thoughts. Broadcasting it means it's fair game, no? We all wield words as flashlights at times, seeing what is possible, but (and I can't speak for all INTPs here) I tend to do this exploration in my mind first and I won't broadcast it until I'm moderately satisfied with its resistance to take-down. I battle it in my own private arena to see if it holds water. So when i air it out to my peers, I'm hoping (kind of) that someone will show me a vulnerability, if one exists. As humbling as it will be for me, I want to identify blind spots if any exist. If you can make me see what I couldn't in my own private mental lab, count on getting challenged to many more of these duels by me in the future. 

The next time an INTP "nitpicks" your thought, note the style. The flair. We are throwing pearls at you, my friend.


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## absent air

Rather than defending classic mbti types, shouldn't we defend our own order of c-functions?

I do have a question for the NT types here

Say a intp and a intj both have great determination to become evil world leaders
What will they do and how will it be different from each other while they work to world domination?
And what would they feel?


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## Demosthenes

If we told you, we would have to kill you. Step into my evil Greek death ray.


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## Bogspirit

*@APennySaved
*I see your point! 
In terms of helping to "test" a theory by throwing it against a wall, this is helping sharpen our knife, isn't it. You aren't doing anyone any favors by simply agreeing with them or blindly going along if you think it's a bad idea! Avoiding sounding "too confident/definite" seems to be a good way not to trigger annoying nitpicking on an INTP's part. We do talk through our thoughts sometimes, some of us. I don't know if we all do it. I think I react to the tone sometimes, to be honest, or the weary old realization that P's just "do less sh**". For me, sometimes a decision simply has to be made, and the INTP doesn't see the sense of the course of action. If I can go it alone, I will. If I am harnessed to someone who is pigheaded and doesn't see the same thing I am seeing, or whose basic interests conflict, it's hard. Maybe Ni at work here too.You can never justify those mysterious hunches to anyone.*

@absent air
*An INTJ would already see the nightmarish bureaucracy inherent in achieving world domination (what an E thing, after all) and avoid the thought-exercise to begin with.  We might think about the best way to exploit the situation or survive when the ENTJ accomplishes said domination ("there will be plenty of jobs in the Ministry of XYZ when Dictator ENTJ comes to power, I can see where things are going, might as well start hitting the books or working the contacts now" or "better dissolve assets and leave the country now"). (?) I am putting a question mark because I am not sure. I think in terms of manipulating our human environment, we prefer to be left well enough alone and hate wasting too much energy changing minds that seem mostly stupid and unchangeable to us? I shouldn't speak for other INTJs really, I can only speak for myself. Best to consider how to rise above the next wave of stupidity.
*
http://personalitycafe.com/members/apennysaved.html*


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## Coppertony

absent air said:


> Say a intp and a intj both have great determination to become evil world leaders
> What will they do and how will it be different from each other while they work to world domination?
> And what would they feel?


Hmm, I think that an INTJ would have a more structured concept of what it means to be a world leader/ dominator. They would be more likely to set up external, tangible bureaucracies to rule. This gets a little difficult, though, because ENTJs fit the role so well that any INTJ I could imagine would take on some ENTJ traits.

An INTP on the other hand would approach world domination like Robin Hood; there are wrongs in the world (ways that the external does not reflect our internal model for how things should work), and we use our omnipotence to correct those wrongs. Most INTPs that I know positively abhor the technical/supervisory side of leadership, and would be much more content as a consultant or expert, the power behind the throne so to speak.

Maybe the INTJs would be more like a super-powerful Bilderberg Group, while the INTPs would be more akin to a souped up Milton Friedman?


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## Mendi the ISFJ

Bogspirit said:


> when Dictator ENTJ comes to power, I can see where things are going, might as well start hitting the books or working the contacts now" or "better dissolve assets and leave the country now"). (?) I am putting a question mark because I am not sure. I think in terms of manipulating our human environment, we prefer to be left well enough alone and hate wasting too much energy changing minds that seem mostly stupid and unchangeable to us? I shouldn't speak for other INTJs really, I can only speak for myself. Best to consider how to rise above the next wave of stupidity.
> *
> http://personalitycafe.com/members/apennysaved.html*


would ENTJs have enough people skills to accomplish this task?


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## Abraxas

It's a matter of judging functions.

Because INTJs have perception as a dominant function, they are more likely to draw a conclusion before taking the time to think it through. They believe they perceive everything. Perceiving is what they do best, it's their dominant function. However, with a well developed Te, they will take the time to ground their Ni 'hunches' in something externally verifiable, something objective, which can be expressed to anyone. Also, extroverted thinking compels one to express judgement rather than retain it inwardly. Thus, INTJs are more outwardly assertive. The truth is that INTPs are _just as decisive as INTJs_ - they just don't show it. They hide it, until their Ne perceptions feed them something to back up their Ti decisions.

INTPs have judgement as a dominant function, so they're generally better at it and have better judgement than INTJs. The irony is that this _would_ make them better decision makers, if only their judgement wasn't introverted. And, without Ne developed, they won't even know it. They don't so much feel insecure about their judgements, it's more of a sense of not feeling compelled to express them the way Te does, because Ti is introverted and Te is extroverted. Also, if they lack objective observations from Ne, they aren't as assertive and judgmental at all, even internally they will feel indecisive. Indecisiveness comes from lack of Ne, but not feeling the need to express judgement comes from introverted thinking.

This is why INTJs and INTPs feel competitive, or tend to rub each other the wrong way.

If the Te user draws a conclusion that is congruent with the conclusion the Ti user has drawn, there will be no friction. The INTJ asserts their judgement, and the INTP doesn't, but they are both thinking the same thing.

If the Te user draws a conclusions that is not congruent with the conclusions the Ti user has drawn, there will be friction because the INTJ asserts their judgement, the INTP doesn't, and they are not thinking the same thing. Fe kicks in at this point, as the INTP feels trapped, and knows that their idea will never come to fruition if the INTJ 'wins' by merely being assertive. But to assert themselves goes against their grain, because they are introverts. However, in these cases, the INTP will speak up, compelled by Fe to do so. The INTJ, however, battles back with Te and Fi, Fi giving fuel to their Te to keep it going. Fe is also the INTP's weakest function, thus, he will back off sooner than the INTJ, who feels a stronger conviction that he must assert himself.

Who will win ends up depending on the secondary functions, Ne and Te, as well as the INTP's Fe. If the INTP has a more well-developed Ne than the INTJ's Te, as well as sufficient Fe to feed his convictions, then the INTP will make a better case, and the INTJ will concede, as he quickly sees where the INTP is coming from. Ne appeals to Te, because they are both extroverted functions and thus, they are both objective. If the INTJ's Te is stronger than the INTP's Ne, then the INTP will feel outmatched, and because he lacks sufficient Ne to _see that the INTJ is right_ he will continue to believe the INTJ is wrong, because his introverted thinking judgement is his dominant function, and he will always side with it unless he _*perceives*_ a reason not to.

/thread.


----------



## absentminded

@Abraxas

While I agree with the majority of your post, I disagree that stronger functions yield any kind of moral or logical superiority.

Just because the INTJ's Te is more developed does not mean that he is right and the INTP is wrong. It means nothing more than the INTJ is able to use Te to make a very strong case, while the INTP isn't necessarily able to make a strong enough case.


----------



## Abraxas

absentminded said:


> @Abraxas
> 
> While I agree with the majority of your post, I disagree that stronger functions yield any kind of moral or logical superiority.
> 
> Just because the INTJ's Te is more developed does not mean that he is right and the INTP is wrong. It means nothing more than the INTJ is able to use Te to make a very strong case, while the INTP isn't necessarily able to make a strong enough case.


Sup Fe.

Let me reword that for you, so it's more Fe friendly.

Since you seem to dislike accepting that some people have a natural advantage in some areas over others, that makes them objectively _better_ than other people at those things.

Dominant better?

Pick a word bro. It all means the same in the context of what I had to say.

"Not necessarily able to make a strong enough case"

That's because he was wrong and doesn't realize it. He won't _ever_ be able to make a strong enough case, because he lacks objectivity. If his Ne was stronger, he'd recognize that the INTJ was right, in cases where the INTJ's Te is more developed than his Ne. Except therein lies the irony, you see. Precisely _because_ his Ne is weaker, he _can't see_ that the INTJ _IS_ right.

And round and round it goes. Until the INTP Fe goes into full 'fuck you' mode, and Ti tells him it's okay to just ignore the INTJ and go about his business.


----------



## absentminded

Abraxas said:


> Sup Fe.


Not much, Fi.



> "Not necessarily able to make a strong enough case"
> 
> That's because he was wrong and doesn't realize it. He won't _ever_ be able to make a strong enough case, because he lacks objectivity. If his Ne was stronger, he'd recognize that the INTJ was right, in cases where the INTJ's Te is more developed than his Ne. Except therein lies the irony, you see. Precisely _because_ his Ne is weaker, he _can't see_ that the INTJ _IS_ right.


You're assuming that just because Ne can't make a case, that it hasn't managed to see the pattern and make a deduction from it.



> And round and round it goes. Until the INTP Fe goes into full 'fuck you' mode, and Ti tells him it's okay to just ignore the INTJ and go about his business.


I think I'll do that now... :tongue:


----------



## Abraxas

absentminded said:


> You're assuming that just because Ne can't make a case, that it hasn't managed to see the pattern and make a deduction from it.


 Nope.

I'm actually not. Did you even read what I said? How did you draw that conclusion from it?

"Just because Ne can't make a case"

Derp?

Ne isn't a judging function. Ne doesn't make cases. Ti does that. Ne just feeds him data to do it with. And if he does know he's right, and he doesn't assert himself, it is because his Fe doesn't compel him to do so.


----------



## Coppertony

Abraxas said:


> It's a matter of judging functions.
> 
> Because INTJs have perception as a dominant function, they are more likely to draw a conclusion before taking the time to think it through. *They believe they perceive everything*. Perceiving is what they do best, it's their dominant function.


Holy Shit. All the INTJs that I know think they're like hot shit at analyzing people. If that's why, that's pretty damn funny. xD


> However, with a well developed Te, they will take the time to ground their Ni 'hunches' in something externally verifiable, something objective, which can be expressed to anyone. Also, extroverted thinking compels one to express judgement rather than retain it inwardly. Thus, INTJs are more outwardly assertive. The truth is that INTPs are _just as decisive as INTJs_ - they just don't show it. They hide it, until their Ne perceptions feed them something to back up their Ti decisions.


INTPs are also better at holding contradictory thoughts in their mind, so you can basically construct two syllogisms and then just carry through with whichever is satisfied. That makes decision-making irrelevant, so INTPs really have less of a need for that.



> If the Te user draws a conclusions that is not congruent with the conclusions the Ti user has drawn, there will be friction because the INTJ asserts their judgement, the INTP doesn't, and they are not thinking the same thing. Fe kicks in at this point, as the INTP feels trapped, and knows that their idea will never come to fruition if the INTJ 'wins' by merely being assertive. But to assert themselves goes against their grain, because they are introverts. However, in these cases, the INTP will speak up, compelled by Fe to do so. The INTJ, however, battles back with Te and Fi, Fi giving fuel to their Te to keep it going. Fe is also the INTP's weakest function, thus, he will back off sooner than the INTJ, who feels a stronger conviction that he must assert himself.


That's okay, but not the full picture. There's another, and probably more likely, case where the INTP gets combatative, and that's when Ne starts noticing flaws and imperfections in the INTJ's judgement. This is an aggressive kind of discourse, full of critique and contradiction, which differs from the more defensive Fe-driven self-defense.

And an INTP on Ne will *not* back off any time soon. I've seen some pretty sick assaults in my day, just sayin'



> /thread.


I am amused. :happy: Why would you make a long, interesting post and not want to discuss and play around with it?


----------



## Coppertony

> If his Ne was stronger, he'd recognize that the INTJ was right, in cases where the INTJ's Te is more developed than his Ne


If his Ne was stronger, he'd be able to have the INTJ recognize that the INTP was right, in cases where the INTJ's Te is less composed of badass than his baller ENTP alter-ego. Just sayin', bro. 



> Sup Fe.


That's _Fe_ to ya, man. As in, "That's FEirce".



> While I agree with the majority of your post, I disagree that stronger functions yield any kind of moral or logical superiority.


Dude, define your terms, brah! what is moral or logical superiority, and how does that play into the discussion?


----------



## MegaTuxRacer

Oh dear, how incredibly stupid of us. We have gotten into an argument over who is smarter.


----------



## Mendi the ISFJ

mkeath said:


> Oh dear, how incredibly stupid of us. We have gotten into an argument over who is smarter.


your avatar makes me want to shake you until you wake up.


----------



## MegaTuxRacer

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> your avatar makes me want to shake you until you wake up.


I was awake when I took it. I am awake now. Shaking me would be a futile effort.


----------



## Mendi the ISFJ

mkeath said:


> I was awake when I took it. I am awake now. Shaking me would be a futile effort.


would be fun though


----------



## MissJordan

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> your avatar makes me want to shake you until you wake up.


Mendi, that kind of _sexual slur_ isn't invited on the forum.



<--- Is joking.


----------



## MegaTuxRacer

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> would be fun though


Are you trying to seduce me? :tongue:


----------



## Mendi the ISFJ

mkeath said:


> Are you trying to seduce me? :tongue:


yes this whole thread was just an elaborate scheme to seduce u by suggesting that u be shaken.


----------



## Abraxas

Coppertony said:


> I am amused. :happy: Why would you make a long, interesting post and not want to discuss and play around with it?


Because I'm an INTJ. Lol.

Also, you just took everything I said and turned it around and ended up saying the same thing I was.

That's cool. I like how ENTPs can do that. You guys are pretty awesome, really. I appreciate that.


----------



## Abraxas

Coppertony said:


> If his Ne was stronger, he'd be able to have the INTJ recognize that the INTP was right, in cases where the INTJ's Te is less composed of badass than his baller ENTP alter-ego. Just sayin', bro.


Yeah, that's the inverse of what I said. I agree.

As for defining my terms.

Fuck _that._ You're an ENTP.

I know what happens if I do that. Nice try. Lol.


----------



## Coppertony

Abraxas said:


> Because I'm an INTJ. Lol.
> 
> Also, you just took everything I said and turned it around and ended up saying the same thing I was.
> 
> That's cool. I like how ENTPs can do that. You guys are pretty awesome, really. I appreciate that.
> 
> .


Exactly! We were all actually agreeing, but we were just miscommunicating. Isn't it wonderful when you let yourself be convinced by superior Ce (extroverted chill) that your argument was just a less refined version of mine? Now we can all sing Kumbaya and take intellectual body shots off of each other!



> Yeah, that's the inverse of what I said. I agree


But see, the best part is that the INTP doesn't even have to be right. just awesome. well, I guess awesome makes right, but that's another story entirely . . .



> As for defining my terms.
> 
> Fuck that. You're an ENTP.
> 
> I know what happens if I do that. Nice try. Lol.


Dude, just trying to make some discrete claims and deductions from first principles, man. Like seriously, it's not that scary xD. Sorry I'm such a nice guy and like to spread the gospel of rigorous logic.

Oh yeah, and thanks for the compliment. I love it when people reaffirm my sense of ENTPness. Although really, I think it goes in this order:



> You're an ENTP. Fuck _that_.


in which case I can only graciously accept. 

. . .

Random question: how do I get two INTJs to stop being angry at each other? I had these two friends who were like major bros, but then the dude realized that the girl was actually manipulating him the entire time and got really pissed. So now they're roommates in an apartment but refuse to talk to one another. The social inefficiency bothers me . . .


----------



## Abraxas

Coppertony said:


> Dude, just trying to make some discrete claims and deductions from first principles, man. Like seriously, it's not that scary xD. Sorry I'm such a nice guy and like to spread the gospel of rigorous logic.


It's not scary, no.

But to me it would be boring. I rarely fuss over terminology.

And I'm glad to hear you promote rigorous logic though. Good for you dude. Ten points awarded to house ENTP.


----------



## twentyseven

Abraxas said:


> INTPs have judgment as a dominant function, so they're generally better at it and have better judgment than INTJs. The irony is that this _would_ make them better decision makers, if only their judgment wasn't introverted. And, without Ne developed, they won't even know it.


I just wanted to point out your subjective observation here. By using the word ‘better’ you can always be subjectively correct and no one can argue you. I would first start this conversion by asking you to define ‘better’ clearly. When a relative qualifier comes into the argument, there really is no reason for me to argue. By changing the perspective of ‘better’ or any other subjective qualifier well hidden in arguments, one can argue any side of it. What is the point? You might as well argue you see a ‘red’ ball. Who will argue? Not many, but one would only be correct only in so far as we agree on what ‘red’ is to begin with and one would only be incorrect in so far as we cannot agree on what ‘red’ is.

Keep in mind your entire argument is based on “It's a matter of judging functions.” I think part of the conflict can arise from the Te not realizing the information it takes in was subjective to begin with (Ni). While an INTP is willing to see their subjectivity with Ne, I honestly don’t know about an INTJ as to whether they are able to recognize their Te argument may be flawed by Ni bias. 



> Also, if they lack objective observations from Ne, they aren't as assertive and judgmental at all, even internally they will feel indecisive. Indecisiveness comes from lack of Ne, but not feeling the need to express judgment comes from introverted thinking.


Here is a large flaw in your argument. Ne is about many possibilities. Ni perhaps would give you confidence in your decisions. My understanding of Ni is that it has an inverse relationship to indecisiveness, but Ne mostly has the opposite effect (a direct relationship with indecisiveness), showing me all the potential directions of thought, each negating others, and revealing flaws. The more developed my Ne is, the harder it is to decide amongst the possibilities. Si and Fe help narrow the choices down but in an inferior way.

Also, Ti being introverted doesn’t mean I do not express judgment just because I do not ‘feel’ the need. Ti understands and records my knowledge and my logical conclusions in their purest non-verbal form. This takes place in my mind as images and connections which are beyond words. The only way to convey the information is to first translate it into the limited linear form of expression as words and pictures, both of which end up getting colored and distorted along the way by our more unconscious functions. 

The bottom line is, the more my other functions are developed and involved, the less I know, but the more I am able to convey what I do know. An INTJ, at least on the surface, appears to me to do the opposite.


----------



## Mendi the ISFJ

Coppertony said:


> Random question: how do I get two INTJs to stop being angry at each other? I had these two friends who were like major bros, but then the dude realized that the girl was actually manipulating him the entire time and got really pissed. So now they're roommates in an apartment but refuse to talk to one another. The social inefficiency bothers me . . .


make the chick move out.


----------



## twentyseven

Coppertony said:


> Exactly! We were all actually agreeing, but we were just miscommunicating. Isn't it wonderful when you let yourself be convinced by superior Ce (extroverted chill) that your argument was just a less refined version of mine? Now we can all sing Kumbaya and take intellectual body shots off of each other!


Looks like while I was typing away my long response you managed to say what I said in so many dry paragraphs summed up in one fun EP like statement where everyone is happy... Ugh <banging head now>


----------



## Coppertony

Abraxas said:


> But to me it would be boring. I rarely fuss over terminology. And I'm glad to hear you promote rigorous logic though. Good for you dude. Ten points awarded to house ENTP.


How does rigorous logic work if not from rigorous axioms?

And SWEET. TEN POINTS FOR US! WHEEEEEE!



> make the chick move out.


Sigh, that's probably the best solution. I thought I was done with INTJ drama for college . . . can never escape the Fi!


----------



## absentminded

antiant said:


> My​dick​is​bigger​than​all​of​yours​!!!!!!!​
> *TASTE THE FRICKING RAINBOW!*​


----------



## ALNF1031

absentminded said:


>


To add on further, include a ruler to the side.


----------



## Quantum

Alddous1031 said:


> To add on further, include a ruler to the side.


And a roll of dimes. Just to be sure.


----------



## MegaTuxRacer

We're better looking. We both have picture threads. See for yourself.


----------



## WillT

I haven't read much of the thread, but I'm going to assume that the INTPs won. thank you and good bye


----------



## thunder999

WillT said:


> I haven't read much of the thread, but I'm going to assume that the INTPs won. thank you and good bye


No they lose.


----------



## redmanXNTP

Oh hohoho! There's no competition!


----------



## absentminded

thunder999 said:


> No they lose.


----------



## Timo

We need a INTJ<->INTP translator.. Nice to see the functions and their "blindspots" at work here though.


----------



## absent air

Timo said:


> We need a INTP->INTJ translator.. Nice to see the functions and their "blindspots" at work here though.


Here, it's corrected.


----------



## Night & Day

Abraxas said:


> I posted this in a thread in the INTJ forum, and I'll post it here for the INTPs to nit-pick. You guys look hungry in your cages, and I feel awful about it, so here's something to feed your brains with.


One would think that's offensive but you couldn't have said it better...:laughing:


----------



## Abraxas

Bani said:


> One would think that's offensive but you couldn't have said it better...:laughing:


Oh I was being offensive on purpose, but it was meant in good sport. If some people took offense, well, that was the point. We all get to laugh at those ones and it's not fair to them, but then we get branded as rude for picking on them so you see, generally speaking they get the better end of it. It's easier to be the victim and wait to get saved.

EDIT: I'd also like to add, that I find it is a delight to work with INTPs now that I have a firmer grasp of how introverted biases work. As an INTJ, when I am trying to relate my jumbled inner visions, I am using Te to try and describe them. Since the INTP uses Ti, he will resist certain extraverted concepts that he is biased against, and I have to accept that he has his good reasons, and indeed I have discovered that most INTPs will gladly divulge those reasons in their complexity if politely encouraged.

And I believe that the somber and patient INTJ can get far working with INTPs, if they can endure the lengthy and detailed explanations. In fact, if you are patient enough to wait all the way to the end of one, you might at least understand why such a detailed and complex explanation would seem appropriate, at least from the perspective of the INTP who struggles with the fact that he does not reach his conclusions in an orthodox fashion because he has a deeper understanding of the subject - an understanding so deep he cannot necessarily comprehend it himself.

I can sympathize, because as an intuitive introvert I am always struggling to decipher my subconscious understanding of my experiences in life, and it is very hard to find the right rational language to use to convey the concepts 'just so' in a light that does not sacrifice something of the essence or purity of the original concept.

_INTPs, consider this final idea just for fun - what I have described, it is like entropy, perhaps? In the exchange of information, one can imagine a closed system, and there must be some inefficiency, therefore perfect knowledge is impossible - and this is what Socrates and Plato knew, and what the Masters throughout history have all known, in some guise or another, and have all spoken about or taught._


----------



## downsowf

I haven't read any of the thread, but obviously this is an illusory competition. I'm drunk and will annihilate an INTJ in my most vulnerable state. 

I hate that people say that INTPs can't execute. If you give me a reason to embarrass you, I will summon up the will power just to see a person squirm.

Edit: After reading this thread, I was disappointed how civilized it was. I also realized that an argument over who has the biggest cock was started by an ISFJ (which makes no sense at all). Point is: the latter comment was influenced by many mac 12 on the rocks. Now, who wants to fight!


----------



## MegaTuxRacer

downsowf said:


> Edit: After reading this thread, I was disappointed how civilized it was. I also realized that an argument over who has the biggest cock was started by an ISFJ (which makes no sense at all). Point is: the latter comment was influenced by many mac 12 on the rocks. Now, who wants to fight!


Those ISFJs sure are troublemakers.


----------



## Abraxas

mkeath said:


> Those ISFJs sure are troublemakers.


----------



## Kestrel

Abraxas said:


> EDIT: I'd also like to add, that I find it is a delight to work with INTPs now that I have a firmer grasp of how introverted biases work. As an INTJ, when I am trying to relate my jumbled inner visions, I am using Te to try and describe them. Since the INTP uses Ti, he will resist certain extraverted concepts that he is biased against, and I have to accept that he has his good reasons, and indeed I have discovered that most INTPs will gladly divulge those reasons in their complexity if politely encouraged.


As much as I hate the word the word 'biased' in association with Ti (logic must be indiscriminate), I have to say that this is very true.

Te irks me greatly. I can immediately sense when someone is using it and it has a tendency to to put me on the offensive/defensive. I recognise its uses, but my need for harmonic systems and versatile definitions clashes with Te's need for swift categorisation - what you see as efficiency is often seen as hasty, sloppy and closed-minded by me. This leads to the bias you are referring to, even in situations where focusing more on the big picture would lead me to concede that actions lead by Te might indeed be necessary.

I get along better with ENTJs, because they tend to be more open to and trusting of external ideas in spite of their Te (extraverted + forward-thinking). It all comes down to intellectual delegation, I guess - like INTPs, INTJs are micromanagers of what is and isn't right. The only difference is that we base it on analysis (Ti) whereas you base it on perception (Ni).



> And I believe that the somber and patient INTJ can get far working with INTPs, if they can endure the lengthy and detailed explanations. In fact, if you are patient enough to wait all the way to the end of one, you might at least understand why such a detailed and complex explanation would seem appropriate, at least from the perspective of the INTP who struggles with the fact that *he does not reach his conclusions in an orthodox fashion because he has a deeper understanding of the subject - an understanding so deep he cannot necessarily comprehend it himself*.


The bolded part is more of a Ni thing, I think. My deduction skills are perfectly orthodox to me, albeit better developed.

I find it difficult at times not to be baffled by the fact that other people don't see reason as simply I do.


----------



## Mendi the ISFJ

downsowf said:


> I also realized that an argument over who has the biggest cock was started by an ISFJ (which makes no sense at all).


tee hee10 char


----------



## Mendi the ISFJ

Abraxas said:


>


i fail to understand what the lizard has to do with the statement.


----------



## Abraxas

Kestrel said:


> The bolded part is more of a Ni thing, I think. My deduction skills are perfectly orthodox to me, albeit better developed.
> 
> I find it difficult at times not to be baffled by the fact that other people don't see reason as simply I do.


I could have worded that better, thank you. That part in particular, as you noticed. I should have said, rather than saying Ti-doms use unorthodox methods, I should say they reach generally unorthodox conclusions that can require a lengthy explanation, but generally speaking are still perfectly rational - again, as you pointed out. I find that INTPs do truly have as deep a grasp of most things as I do, only they actually have it figured out, whereas for me, it is merely a sense of things that comes with a deep conviction that I have to decipher.

Good call. I still sometimes blur the edges between the functions because they are all so very similar despite their differences. I'm always perceiving through the distortion of my own biases, more or less.

But my main point that I was trying to convey about Ti-doms, is that like all introverted functions, their thinking is biased - which is to say, that ideas leave an impression upon the INTP, and the INTP is partial because he/she is biased and prefers certain concepts over others. It is always a matter of personal taste, and a projection of that person's identity, which concepts and notions they will end up being biased towards.

And just as for an INTJ, our convictions stem from a sense of accuracy - so do yours. But nevertheless, it is not about accuracy, it only feels so. It is actually about the strength of your bias. The more intensely you feel it, the stronger your bias.


----------



## Mendi the ISFJ

Abraxas said:


> I could have worded that better, thank you. That part in particular, as you noticed. I should have said, rather than saying Ti-doms use unorthodox methods, I should say they reach generally unorthodox conclusions that can require a lengthy explanation, but generally speaking are still perfectly rational - again, as you pointed out. I find that INTPs do truly have as deep a grasp of most things as I do, only they actually have it figured out, whereas for me, it is merely a sense of things that comes with a deep conviction that I have to decipher.
> 
> Good call. I still sometimes blur the edges between the functions because they are all so very similar despite their differences. I'm always perceiving through the distortion of my own biases, more or less.
> 
> But my main point that I was trying to convey about Ti-doms, is that like all introverted functions, their thinking is biased - which is to say, that ideas leave an impression upon the INTP, and the INTP is partial because he/she is biased and prefers certain concepts over others. It is always a matter of personal taste, and a projection of that person's identity, which concepts and notions they will end up being biased towards.
> 
> And just as for an INTJ, our convictions stem from a sense of accuracy - so do yours. But nevertheless, it is not about accuracy, it only feels so. It is actually about the strength of your bias. The more intensely you feel it, the stronger your bias.


are you suggesting that INTJs dont have a bias, and arent skewed by their own preferences? (im not suggesting that you are incorrect, just trying to determine if you believe this to be true and if so, why)


----------



## Abraxas

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> are you suggesting that INTJs dont have a bias, and arent skewed by their own preferences? (im not suggesting that you are incorrect, just trying to determine if you believe this to be true and if so, why)


No, you are suggesting that, with your post just now._

All introverted functions are biased. That is their purpose. If they were not, they would be extraverted. They feel 'right' (accurate, true, fair, honest, whatever, make up a word, you get what I'm saying). But whether they actually are any of those words is determined by the extraverted function paired with it.
_


----------



## nonnaci

Just an observation off the NT forum:
INTJ:
Threads: 2,483
Posts: 123,245

INTP:
Threads: 3,240
Posts: 112,830

See how we're already going at it with the post counts. Its practically neck and neck compared to the other subforums. Statistics speak for themselves ;0


----------



## koalaroo

INTP versus INTJ? What? I never knew!


----------



## Figure

Abraxas said:


> No, you are suggesting that, with your post just now._
> 
> All introverted functions are biased. That is their purpose. If they were not, they would be extraverted. They feel 'right' (accurate, true, fair, honest, whatever, make up a word, you get what I'm saying). But whether they actually are any of those words is determined by the extraverted function paired with it.
> _



That's almost proof that many INTP/INTJ "debates" are destined to be pointless


----------



## Dashing




----------



## beth x

LXPilot said:


> That's almost proof that many INTP/INTJ "debates" are destined to be pointless


It's the sneaky ISFJ again. I believe you were right with that article on distrust of those functions.


----------



## Empty

Jessy Lashway said:


> I totally disagree. In fact, I would say they are _over competent_. They are too logical and do not have the same grounding as the INTJ. I would even go as far as to say that a developed INTP is "smarter" than a developed INTJ. However, generally speaking, they lack the philosophical application of the INTJ, which makes the latter more dangerous.
> 
> A best friend of mine is an INTP, so I am speaking from both online observation and real life experience.



Hah, you think praises would bring down our guard!!! 

Increase paranoia levels to over 9000!!!!


----------



## Empress Appleia Cattius XII

Surely this is the real explanation...


----------



## Mendi the ISFJ

bethdeth said:


> It's the sneaky ISFJ again. I believe you were right with that article on distrust of those functions.


dont distrust, just expect more


----------



## Kestrel

AppleCat said:


>


I read the second word as 'sex', at first.

Maybe there's something Freudian to be observed there. Could it be that the passion INTJs and INTPs always seem to evoke in each other is in fact rooted in... passion?


----------



## beth x

Kestrel said:


> I read the second word as 'sex', at first.
> 
> Maybe there's something Freudian to be observed there. Could it be that the passion INTJs and INTPs always seem to evoke in each other is in fact rooted in... passion?


Possibly. I can count one INTP IRL that I have thoroughly rooted with passion. We spawned an INTP out of it. It makes me wonder if there is a dominant P gene. At least she got my green eyes.


----------



## Abraxas

Kestrel said:


> I read the second word as 'sex', at first.
> 
> Maybe there's something Freudian to be observed there. Could it be that the passion INTJs and INTPs always seem to evoke in each other is in fact rooted in... passion?


----------



## Empty

thunder999 said:


> No they lose.


Shouldn't it be "lost?"


----------



## instruMENTAL

I think other types see (atleast stereotypically) the INTP and INTJ types as the 'smart people' to come to when there's a problem requiring intellectual and innovative solution, and the two types most likely to be called cold and distant. In my experience, INTx types like being thought of as cold and distant. *Each type respects the other but are also in a constant battle to prove themselves. *


----------



## Mendi the ISFJ

instruMENTAL said:


> I think other types see (atleast stereotypically) the INTP and INTJ types as the 'smart people' to come to when there's a problem requiring intellectual and innovative solution, and the two types most likely to be called cold and distant. In my experience, INTx types like being thought of as cold and distant. *Each type respects the other but are also in a constant battle to prove themselves. *


it would seem they would be more confident and not NEED to prove themselves


----------



## C. Cal. MindTraipse

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> it would seem they would be more confident and not NEED to prove themselves


Exactly. I have nothing to prove to the world. The world has everything to prove to me.


----------



## Anonynony

nonnaci said:


> Just an observation off the NT forum:
> INTJ:
> Threads: 2,483
> Posts: 123,245
> 
> INTP:
> Threads: 3,240
> Posts: 112,830
> 
> See how we're already going at it with the post counts. Its practically neck and neck compared to the other subforums. Statistics speak for themselves ;0


Well it seems INTJs can stay on topic longer!


----------



## nonnaci

FigureSkater said:


> Well it seems INTJs can stay on topic longer!


Conversely Ne scatter shot more threads. Now if one could measure the distribution of post lengths... mmm bimodal for INTP with long tails from posting mini-theses that escalate into even longer rebuttals. intj posts are more to the point.


----------



## Anonynony

nonnaci said:


> Conversely Ne scatter shot more threads. Now if one could measure the distribution of post lengths... mmm bimodal for INTP with long tails from posting mini-theses that escalate into even longer rebuttals. intj posts are more to the point.


Post length would be an interesting thing to research. I smell a future study in the air!


----------



## nonnaci

FigureSkater said:


> Post length would be an interesting thing to research. I smell a future study in the air!


 @LeaT has expounded on the two writing styles in some thread. What we need is to data-mine all posts in the sub-forums and cluster them by topics (maybe by title or tags if peopled bothered). Do some factor analysis or LDA and come up with a list of words that best capture inter and intra class variability. Pool those words together and turn them into a test like the one they use in the Big 5.


----------



## Anonynony

nonnaci said:


> @_LeaT_ has expounded on the two writing styles in some thread. What we need is to data-mine all posts in the sub-forums and cluster them by topics (maybe by title or tags if peopled bothered). Do some factor analysis or LDA and come up with a list of words that best capture inter and intra class variability. Pool those words together and turn them into a test like the one they use in the Big 5.


That sounds like fun!


----------



## Collen Jake Mcjunkin

Who said It was a competition lol?


----------



## Azubane

SteffSweetlySour said:


> I think both types like to think they are the smartest but neither wants to come out and say it, just in case they're post precedes someone of the other type who happens to be smarter! It would be horrific! haha


I dont know why they would both think that when that honor goes to ENTPS. Clever is who we are.


----------



## Sollertis

Why do Americans make fun of the French? People are stupid and tribal.


----------



## Azubane

Sollertis said:


> Why do Americans make fun of the French? People are stupid and tribal.


It may seem like irrational behavior that doesnt have reason or logic behind it, but for a group of the population there is an emotional and social need to belong to a cultural/social identity that defines who they are.


----------



## Verthani

My younger brother is an INTP and we mostly get on really well. Except when we don't and then we just don't talk for a little while until we both get over it.


----------



## Mendi the ISFJ

Azubane said:


> I dont know why they would both think that when that honor goes to ENTPS. Clever is who we are.


yawn


----------



## Sollertis

Azubane said:


> It may seem like irrational behavior that doesnt have reason or logic behind it, but for a group of the population there is an emotional and social need to belong to a cultural/social identity that defines who they are.


I know _why _people do it, that doesn't make it a smart thing to do. I don't need other people to define who I am.


----------



## bales33

Shit, I never knew there was a competition, but regardless I won this competition about 2 minutes ago...which was exactly two and half seconds after I decided I was the winner. Good luck beating that logic, it's sound has can be.


----------



## Boolean11

The reason is all based on communication, INTPs can't understand INTJs well since their psyche naturally suppresses the INTJ functions. The same process works vice versa with INTJs. 
(Quasi-identity - Wikisocion)


----------



## Anonynony

Sollertis said:


> Why do Americans make fun of the French? People are stupid and tribal.


The French eat cheese, food of the Devil! :angry:


----------



## Sollertis

FigureSkater said:


> The French eat cheese, food of the Devil! :angry:


That's debatable of course, if it's cheddar then I'm inclined to agree with you. If it's pepper jack on the other hand...


----------



## His Name Is John

Because we are so similar. 

We both kind of respect the other, yet at the same time think of ourselves as better.


----------



## Boolean11

His Name Is John said:


> Because we are so similar.
> 
> We both kind of respect the other, yet at the same time think of ourselves as better.


I guess you are still new here, the truth is more of far from it. INTPs don't seem to be as competitive and aggressive, which is one of the Se and Si differences. Plus Fe and Te differences really show up making INTPs somewhat softer and INTJs blunt barely caring.


----------



## His Name Is John

Boolean11 said:


> I guess you are still new here, the truth is more of far from it. INTPs don't seem to be as competitive and aggressive, which is one of the Se and Si differences. Plus Fe and Te differences really show up making INTPs somewhat softer and INTJs blunt barely caring.


I'm basing my belief on the INTPs I have met (which are not many).

I still hold to my view.


----------



## SPtheGhost

His Name Is John said:


> Because we are so similar.
> 
> We both kind of respect the other, yet at the same time think of ourselves as better.



...i think im officially offended


----------



## Pianoasis

INTJs are absolutely more competitive, which is why INTPs win the competition. Nice try, but you failed.


----------



## Master Mind

I wasn't aware there was a competition, actually. I must be out of the loop.


----------



## Shinji Mimura

From my experience, it seems as though both of them aaaaalways think they're right about everything. The difference is that INTJs tend to be the methodical researchers who are looking more for concrete data to boost their points, whereas INTPs, the thinkers, are more likely to use logic and their knowledge/brains versus facts.

The two are definitely rivals as far as functions go, being complete opposite. I'm an ENTP, meaning my function order is different than INTP, but we share the same functions. I know that I, too, tend to think that I'm right about things based more off logic, philosophy, thinking, etc, versus my INTJ friend who is very much into proofs (both literal and mathematical).


----------



## GuruOfReason

*INTPs, INTJs, and Geek/Nerd Holy Wars*

INTP vs. INTJ? Me thinks that it is just another "geek/nerd holy war". There are many of these "holy wars" raging within the nerd and geek community.

*Star Wars vs. Star Trek:* This holy war has become a part of the mainstream culture with the release of Star Wars and Star Trek movies in the 70s and 80s. 

*EMACS vs. VI: * This is a fanatical holy war that has been raging for decades, and still does to this very day. This is a legendary holy war, with a history for vitriolic internet flame wars that stretch back to the 1980s. So, what the hell are they arguing about? Text editors. Yes, you read that right, text editors. These are not your run of the mill Notepad.exe applications, though. These text editors (mainly VI) are a mind fuck for most people to use. VI is a modal text editor, which is rather difficult to use without practice. But by mastering it, you are able to gain maximum productivity in editing text. EMACS is a text editor that is programmable itself using lisp. In fact, you could theoretically turn it into its own operating system. 

*Apple vs. Microsoft: *This one needs no explanation.

*iPhone vs. Android:* An update of the old Apple vs. Microsoft war. 

*Video game systems: *The largest holy war was the SNES vs. Genesis. There is always a holy war going on between the reigning game systems of the time.


----------



## FlaviaGemina

The Wanderering ______ said:


> Its because INTP say the word "shit" a lot and INTJ have perceived this pattern so now they are fighting them to make them say the ultimate "OH SHIT".
> 
> Not a very good fight. Lets get to the INTJ(mastermind) vs ENTP(trickster) villain fight!


Yep, ENTPs are cute little things.


----------



## Bricolage

I didn't read any of this thread - except the last post: that's so true! :tongue: - but INTPs are prone to despising INTJs and vice versa because each's functions are shadow functions for the other. :shocked:


----------



## Mendi the ISFJ

Zhoro Zhekov said:


> We also have more in common with INFJs rather than INTJs, since both types have Fe and Ti, and thus communicate and judge using these functions. In fact, I've seen more INTPs and INFJs get confused with each other rather than with INTJs.



interesting,i could see that, my sister is INFJ and my brother INTP.


----------



## Mendi the ISFJ

The Wanderering ______ said:


> Its because INTP say the word "shit" a lot and INTJ have perceived this pattern so now they are fighting them to make them say the ultimate "OH SHIT".
> 
> Not a very good fight. Lets get to the INTJ(mastermind) vs ENTP(trickster) villain fight!


makes me want to throw each in a caged ring and watch them fight physically as well as intellectually and judge them.


----------



## 2fast4u2

Intj=2d
Intp=3d


----------



## The Nightwalker

2fast4u2 said:


> Intj=2d
> Intp=3d


Don't you think 
INTJ=3D
INTP=4D
is more apt?


----------



## FlaviaGemina

Kim Ward said:


> A positive aspect of these relations is that Quasi-Identical partners do not underline your weak points and therefore are not viewed as dangerous by each other. Neither do they see each other as equal. Each partner sees the other as less capable than themselves, hence less talented. However, Quasi-Identicals mistakenly believe that their partner is achieving more than they are. This is perceived by both partners as injustice and may hinder the ambitions of both.
> 
> *In these relations partners always have difficulty understanding each other in full.*


Erhem, and since when is it possible to understand another person in full? Did I hear it rumored that the guy who came up with these intertype relations is an INTJ? If so, he must be in a major Ni-Fi loop.

It is true that I often repeat what my INTP friends say in my own words and sometimes they seem a bit baffled or impatient about that. But on the other hand, I _can_ follow them in my own way and they _can_ follow me. There are people who make a lot less sense to me. Maybe I don't have to rephrase what these people say, but their whole attitude, way of thinking and opinions go totally against the grain anyway.

My INTPs keep me interested because they are both similar to me and wonderfully strange at the same time. Some fellow INTJs might be 'easier' to understand but I might still find them profoundly boring because I'm one of them myself and I know how they tick. There's nothing to figure out. (Of course some other INTJs can be interesting because they know the solution to my problems etc.).

Blahblabblahblah...........boring.


----------



## 2fast4u2

The Nightwalker said:


> Don't you think
> INTJ=3D
> INTP=4D
> is more apt?


Of course I do..


----------



## Praesepe

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> makes me want to throw each in a caged ring and watch them fight physically as well as intellectually and judge them.


You know I'd pay-per-view for that? Damn, taking notes. You got good ideas.


----------



## TheGreenNinja

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> makes me want to throw each in a caged ring and watch them fight physically as well as intellectually and judge them.


I volunteer. I'd love a good cage match.


----------



## Dark NiTe

TheGreenNinja said:


> I volunteer. I'd love a good cage match.












You've made a serious mistake. :tongue:


----------



## TheGreenNinja

benr3600 said:


> You've made a serious mistake. :tongue:



Well, I admit that I'd rather have a power breaking competition, or a magnum shooting match, but that wouldn't be very sporting...
I fail to see any possible justification for contemplation of an error in judgement with respect to any martial competition.


----------



## Narcotic

Competition between INTP and INTJ? 

The Aspie Olympics.


----------



## Dark NiTe

TheGreenNinja said:


> Well, I admit that I'd rather have a power breaking competition, or a magnum shooting match, but that wouldn't be very sporting...
> I fail to see any possible justification for contemplation of an error in judgement with respect to any martial competition.


Ah, so you think martial arts is your ally?







:tongue:


----------



## TheGreenNinja

It would be an interesting match, I think. Strategy vs. Improvisation. An interesting fight, indeed... 

Hmm...a thought...the fighting styles of different types. I will think about this...


----------



## MissJordan

2fast4u2 said:


> Intj=2d
> Intp=3d


And 3D=PD

INTJ WINS
FLAWLESS VICTORY


----------



## Acedia

At times it can be refreshing having a battle of the mind. 
So it's possible to infer that both 'thinker' types are merely interested in the playful competition as a bypass for time and enjoyment. (Competing with some other types is unsatisfactory in some cases, e.g. a playful debate and other types don't have the logic or sense to continue an intriguing debate since they get too personal or their argument has too many obvious holes)


----------



## ninacheburashka

I'm an INTP and I love flaunting of my own intelligence. I hate it when there are people smarter than me, as narcissistic as that sounds. Maybe this applies to all INTP's...?


----------



## Bricolage

There's a fundamental antipathy between differentiated, consciously controlled parts of the psyche and unconscious, undifferentiated, largely chaotic parts. The INTP's shadow is basically an INTJ and the INTJ's shadow is basically an INTP. The rancor displayed by either type, therefore, is a coy manifestation of self-hatred. It's easier on the ego to ascribe the hatred to the Other instead of the Self. People of all types hate or feel uncomfortable when confronted with their own deficiencies. Throw in the narcissism of INTJs and INTPs are it's a powder keg.


----------



## Ista

unctuousbutler said:


> There's a fundamental antipathy between differentiated, consciously controlled parts of the psyche and unconscious, undifferentiated, largely chaotic parts. *The INTP's shadow is basically an INTJ and the INTJ's shadow is basically an INTP*.
> 
> The rancor displayed by either type, therefore, is a coy manifestation of self-hatred. It's easier on the ego to ascribe the hatred to the Other instead of the Self. People of all types hate or feel uncomfortable when confronted with their own deficiencies. Throw in the narcissism of INTJs and INTPs are it's a powder keg.


Say what now?


----------



## Bricolage

Ista said:


> Say what now?


An INTP and INTJ have opposite functions - therefore each is the other's shadow. The fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth functions of an INTP (Te, Ni, Se, Fi) are the INTJ's functions in jumbled order. Therefore, the INTP's shadow is the INTJ's functional stack and vice versa. This is why hatred of the ostensible Other is hatred of Self. Hope that helps.


----------



## Dark NiTe

Just realized this "competition" gives new meaning to the phrase "it's lonely at the top." :tongue:


----------



## Bricolage

benr3600 said:


> Just realized this "competition" gives new meaning to the phrase "it's lonely at the top." :tongue:


That's a decent Randy Newman tune.


----------



## FlaviaGemina

unctuousbutler said:


> There's a fundamental antipathy between differentiated, consciously controlled parts of the psyche and unconscious, undifferentiated, largely chaotic parts. The INTP's shadow is basically an INTJ and the INTJ's shadow is basically an INTP. The rancor displayed by either type, therefore, is a coy manifestation of self-hatred. It's easier on the ego to ascribe the hatred to the Other instead of the Self. People of all types hate or feel uncomfortable when confronted with their own deficiencies. Throw in the narcissism of INTJs and INTPs are it's a powder keg.


Even more basically, the INTP's shadow is an ENTJ and even more basically the INTJ's shadow is an ENTP. 
Eherm... an ENTP talking about the narcissim of INTJs. erhem... just saying....


----------



## Dark NiTe

FlaviaGemina said:


> Even more basically, the INTP's shadow is an ENTJ and even more basically the INTJ's shadow is an ENTP.
> Eherm... an ENTP talking about the narcissim of INTJs. erhem... just saying....


----------



## Bricolage

FlaviaGemina said:


> Even more basically, the INTP's shadow is an ENTJ and even more basically the INTJ's shadow is an ENTP.
> Eherm... an ENTP talking about the narcissim of INTJs. erhem... just saying....


I straight-up concede that I'm somewhat narcissistic. That doesn't mean that INTJs and INTPs aren't also prone to megalomania. Additionally, I'm only one ENTP and I can't speak for all/other ENTPs, you dig?! Meh, I know I have a point but you can continue attempting to undermine it. :tongue:

Also, when you think about it, what I'm forwarding is totally uncontroversial. Namely, that people tend to like and understand their own functions while they denigrate or misunderstand functions that they aren't as familiar with. :shocked:


----------



## Bricolage

benr3600 said:


>


Yeah, I actually plan on forgoing chewing out someone's eye for now, in spite of expectations. :laughing:


----------



## FlaviaGemina

unctuousbutler said:


> I straight-up concede that I'm somewhat narcissistic. That doesn't mean that INTJs and INTPs aren't also prone to megalomania. Additionally, I'm only one ENTP and I can't speak for all/other ENTPs, you dig?! *Meh, I know I have a point but you can continue attempting to undermine it. **:tongue:
> 
> Also, when you think about it, what I'm forwarding is totally uncontroversial. Namely, that people tend to like and understand their own functions while they denigrate or misunderstand functions that they aren't as familiar with. *:shocked:


Yes, I know you have a point, and I don't entirely disagree with you. However, I'd like to know whether this whole "competition" is just an internet phenomenon where nerdy boys (and girls) have nothing better to do than fight on forums or whether these people actually know any significant number of the other type in real life. 
Also, yes, some people denigrate functions they are not familiar with. But then, most people got through life just fine before they learned about MBTI and considering the low percentage of INTs in the overall population, INTs might very well be best friends with people who are vastly different from themselves. 
I know that talking about personal experience will draw some criticism from my fellow INTJs, seeing as the one and only true INTJ is sooooooooo scientific and exclusively relies on scientific evidence. However, there is no "scientific" evidence of the "competition" between INTPs and INTJs in real life, so all we've got is anecdotes. 


So, I will make a start and report my personal experience.
Number of INTPs I have known in real life: 7 (I'm leaving out #8 because she hardly talks at all, so I don't know her that well and I can't be sure she's an INTP)

1. male, high-school friend, no problems communicating whatsoever, never had any kind of misunderstanding or argument, but drifted apart because he got interested in fun people and couldn't be bothered to keep in touch, wants to get back in touch now after ten years of forgetting me, but I can't be arsed. Nothing to do with cognitive functions

2. male, uni friend, no problem communicating whatsoever, but drifted apart because he's not good at keeping in touch

3. female uni friend, no problem communicating whatsoever back then, but not in touch any more, it's possible that I liked her more than she likes me and I bothered her too much, this could actually be a case of Fi clashing with an INTP's cognitive functions, because Fi could be seen by them as prematurely liking them for no logical reason and being too pushy

4. female friend, no problems in communication apart from me "translating" what she says out loud so I can understand it better, doesn't seem to be a problem for her; has the same evil thoughts as me and neatly sums them up in Ti-oneliners, sometimes has evil thoughts that I don't have

5. male friend, this one fits the stereotype most closely... in fact, if the type didn't exist, it would have to be invented just for him. Provided I've got roughly the same amount of information as him, I can follow his Ti-Ne by means of Ni without actually going into shadow mode. I don't have to use the same cognitive functions as him to arrive at the same conclusion. It does annoy him a bit that I translate things out loud, but it can't be helped. If he wants to complain about someone actually trying to understand him, then he can't be helped, because some people don't even try. We don't actually try to "solve" problems. We do talk about what's going on in the world, but often one of us provides a perspective or interpretation that the other missed. He can be a bit of a Ti-Si looper when it comes to personal problems, but when he rants too much, I just interrupt him and provide the evidence he is missing and that shuts him up. Towards the end of our meet-ups I do get a bit restless and want to let out the suppressed Te. But what mainly makes me uneasy is his how socially uncomfortable and easily overwhelmed he is. He basically just jumps up abruptly and tries to run off when he has to go back to work, while I have lost track of time and am just about to go off on a tangent. That confuses me because I don't want to bore him or take up too much of his time, so I'm like "Oh my God, what have I done to him now!" But that's a matter of manners and not really related to cognitive functions. 

6. male acquaintnance, no major problems getting on, but he tells me when _he_ will be at what official event (e.g. exam results day) and I think "This is the bit where he's trying to initiate contact and now I ought to tell him that I won't be at this event but we could keep in touch" and in reality I then tell him when _I_ will be at what event. So we tell each other our timetable and then walk off in different directions never to be heard of again.

7. female boss, chameleon, took me ages to even start to type her because she's so well-camouflaged that I thought "Oh, it's just her." Apart from that, it's the same kind of relationship as with #4.


----------



## EllieBear

Because we secretly want a little bit of each other. They want to loosen up, we want to be able to find our car keys and we would both make fantastic couples is us INTP's left our rooms for long enough...


----------



## Bricolage

DiamondWaterfalls said:


> Because we secretly want a little bit of each other.


Want, hate...who can tell?! :crazy:


----------



## Abraxas

The primary despondence that I witness again and again between INTPs and INTJs (a lot of this comes from first-hand experience here on PerC and elsewhere dealing with INTJs and INTPs) is the way that the INTP is more concerned with the conceptual process of building a new idea and exploring its limits in a subjective search for meaning and truth, whereas the INTJ takes truth for granted (which is to say, it is not as concerned with truth as it is with practicality) and simply accepts the objective world on it's own terms, focused more on finding ways of applying concepts that already exist, and using it's intuition to do just that.

The INTP is trying to view a thing from every arbitrary angle and comes across as a kind of useless completionist to the INTJ, and the INTJ comes across as being narrow-minded because they don't have the same fundamental mistrust of objective data that the INTP does. I've analyzed this very deeply, being most likely an INTP myself. My conclusion is that the subjective nature of the dominant function, and the objective nature of the auxiliary function is the primary cause for most conflict we can observe between the two types.

Consider how subjectivity works with each function, in this case, Ni and Ti. A subjective orientation means that the individual never accepts objective qualities or facts on their own merit, and views them more like suggestions instead. They insert their own need to project their identity (the subject) into the information itself, thus, this becomes a drive to implement their own personal perspective or "add to" the information in some way. With introverted intuition, we see the individual trying to do this with intuition - thus, the INTJ is always probing deeper into their own insight into something, trying to "get to the bottom" or the "absolute origin" of their own perception (intuition is a perceiving function). It is as if the INTJ is more concerned with asking itself, "why am I seeing this?" without consulting the properties of the thing it is seeing, and instead looking inward at itself to analyze it's own personal biases and configuration. This gives the INTJ an _incredible_ insight into reality, because it so deeply understands itself. The old adage, "know thyself" might best apply to the INTJ than to any other type.

The INTP has this same drive to "get to the bottom" and find the "origin" of a thing, but rather than this focus being placed on perception, it is placed on a conclusion. It questions _the final decision._ This is why the INTP is indecisive. The INTP is trying to generate the most precise answer, and this becomes a literal reflection of it's own ego and identity - it is not so much shaping the answer for it's own sake, the precision of the answer is a direct testament to the self and, in a sense, the INTP considers it to be the very _measure_ of his own competence and existence. The more the INTP reflects on an issue and contemplates it further, _the more the INTP actually exists as a living part of this universe._ It would be absolutely contradictory to the INTP's nature to _not_ do this, to simply accept a prevailing opinion or general consensus on its own merit and give it no personal evaluation whatsoever. The personal evaluation _gives legitimacy to the INTP's value as a participating entity in this reality_ and thus, the subjective identity is sated, fulfilling the introverted agenda.

All introverted functions are alike in the above respect. That is, if you really understand what Jung is saying about introversion, it is simply this: _all introverted functions reflect the desire of the individual to assert their own existence by modifying the information that is either being perceived or judged in a way that reflects their own nature and identity._ Whereas, _all extroverted functions try as little as possible to modify information in any way, so as to avoid distorting the information in any way, which would necessarily occur if the individual asserted their own perception or judgment and interfered with reality as such._ Can you see how these are exactly opposed in their attitude and approach to things?

Simply, the INTP's judgment is introverted, and the INTJ's is not. So the INTJ becomes terse with the subjective necessity of the INTP's dominant judgment, whereas the INTP becomes terse with the subjective necessity of the INTJ's dominant intuition. The INTP thinks he is perceiving the situation objectively, while the INTJ is not, and he is right. The INTJ thinks he is basing his conclusions on objective facts, while the INTP is not, and he is right. A solution is possible if the objective perception of the INTP is developed well-enough that he allows himself to accept certain facts about reality because he perceives their pattern and has incorporated those patterns into their subjective understanding, making them part of some personally accepted principle of reasoning. Another solution is when the INTJ's auxiliary thinking is based on objective facts that are generally in line with the INTP's observations, that is to say, when the prevailing wisdom of the age and widely accepted consensus is in line with what the INTP has personally decided is a matter of fact. You see, just because Ti is subjective does not mean that it cannot draw a conclusion that is in line with objective facts, only that the Ti user must do so on his or her own, they cannot just "accept" facts. Likewise, the INTJ will occasionally have similar intuitions and insights, but it must arrive at these as a reflection of who they have come to be and grown into at the present moment. In both cases a personal transformation brought about by time and exposure to experience may be necessary before a new, agreeable insight can emerge from both the INTJ and the INTP, as it is with all introverted types.


----------



## Dark NiTe

Abraxas said:


> The primary despondence that I witness again and again between INTPs and INTJs (a lot of this comes from first-hand experience here on PerC and elsewhere dealing with INTJs and INTPs) is the way that the INTP is more concerned with the conceptual process of building a new idea and exploring its limits in a subjective search for meaning and truth, whereas *the INTJ takes truth for granted (which is to say, it is not as concerned with truth as it is with practicality*) and simply accepts the objective world on it's own terms, focused more on finding ways of applying concepts that already exist, and using it's intuition to do just that.
> 
> The INTP is trying to view a thing from every arbitrary angle and comes across as a kind of useless completionist to the INTJ, and the INTJ comes across as being narrow-minded because they don't have the same fundamental mistrust of objective data that the INTP does. I've analyzed this very deeply, being most likely an INTP myself. My conclusion is that the subjective nature of the dominant function, and the objective nature of the auxiliary function is the primary cause for most conflict we can observe between the two types.
> 
> Consider how subjectivity works with each function, in this case, Ni and Ti. A subjective orientation means that the individual never accepts objective qualities or facts on their own merit, and views them more like suggestions instead. They insert their own need to project their identity (the subject) into the information itself, thus, this becomes a drive to implement their own personal perspective or "add to" the information in some way. With introverted intuition, we see the individual trying to do this with intuition - thus, the INTJ is always probing deeper into their own insight into something, trying to "get to the bottom" or the "absolute origin" of their own perception (intuition is a perceiving function). It is as if the INTJ is more concerned with asking itself, "why am I seeing this?" without consulting the properties of the thing it is seeing, and instead looking inward at itself to analyze it's own personal biases and configuration. This gives the INTJ an _incredible_ insight into reality, because it so deeply understands itself. The old adage, "know thyself" might best apply to the INTJ than to any other type.
> 
> The INTP has this same drive to "get to the bottom" and find the "origin" of a thing, but rather than this focus being placed on perception, it is placed on a conclusion. It questions _the final decision._ This is why the INTP is indecisive. The INTP is trying to generate the most precise answer, and this becomes a literal reflection of it's own ego and identity - it is not so much shaping the answer for it's own sake, the precision of the answer is a direct testament to the self and, in a sense, the INTP considers it to be the very _measure_ of his own competence and existence. The more the INTP reflects on an issue and contemplates it further, _the more the INTP actually exists as a living part of this universe._ It would be absolutely contradictory to the INTP's nature to _not_ do this, to simply accept a prevailing opinion or general consensus on its own merit and give it no personal evaluation whatsoever. The personal evaluation _gives legitimacy to the INTP's value as a participating entity in this reality_ and thus, the subjective identity is sated, fulfilling the introverted agenda.
> 
> All introverted functions are alike in the above respect. That is, if you really understand what Jung is saying about introversion, it is simply this: _all introverted functions reflect the desire of the individual to assert their own existence by modifying the information that is either being perceived or judged in a way that reflects their own nature and identity._ Whereas, _all extroverted functions try as little as possible to modify information in any way, so as to avoid distorting the information in any way, which would necessarily occur if the individual asserted their own perception or judgment and interfered with reality as such._ Can you see how these are exactly opposed in their attitude and approach to things?
> 
> Simply, the INTP's judgment is introverted, and the INTJ's is not. So the INTJ becomes terse with the subjective necessity of the INTP's dominant judgment, whereas the INTP becomes terse with the subjective necessity of the INTJ's dominant intuition. The INTP thinks he is perceiving the situation objectively, while the INTJ is not, and he is right. The INTJ thinks he is basing his conclusions on objective facts, while the INTP is not, and he is right. A solution is possible if the objective perception of the INTP is developed well-enough that he allows himself to accept certain facts about reality because he perceives their pattern and has incorporated those patterns into their subjective understanding, making them part of some personally accepted principle of reasoning. Another solution is when the INTJ's auxiliary thinking is based on objective facts that are generally in line with the INTP's observations, that is to say, when the prevailing wisdom of the age and widely accepted consensus is in line with what the INTP has personally decided is a matter of fact. You see, just because Ti is subjective does not mean that it cannot draw a conclusion that is in line with objective facts, only that the Ti user must do so on his or her own, they cannot just "accept" facts. Likewise, the INTJ will occasionally have similar intuitions and insights, but it must arrive at these as a reflection of who they have come to be and grown into at the present moment. In both cases a personal transformation brought about by time and exposure to experience may be necessary before a new, agreeable insight can emerge from both the INTJ and the INTP, as it is with all introverted types.


----------



## jhoro115

Abraxas said:


> The primary despondence that I witness again and again between INTPs and INTJs (a lot of this comes from first-hand experience here on PerC and elsewhere dealing with INTJs and INTPs) is the way that the INTP is more concerned with the conceptual process of building a new idea and exploring its limits in a subjective search for meaning and truth, whereas the INTJ takes truth for granted (which is to say, it is not as concerned with truth as it is with practicality) and simply accepts the objective world on it's own terms, focused more on finding ways of applying concepts that already exist, and using it's intuition to do just that.
> 
> The INTP is trying to view a thing from every arbitrary angle and comes across as a kind of useless completionist to the INTJ, and the INTJ comes across as being narrow-minded because they don't have the same fundamental mistrust of objective data that the INTP does. I've analyzed this very deeply, being most likely an INTP myself. My conclusion is that the subjective nature of the dominant function, and the objective nature of the auxiliary function is the primary cause for most conflict we can observe between the two types.
> 
> Consider how subjectivity works with each function, in this case, Ni and Ti. A subjective orientation means that the individual never accepts objective qualities or facts on their own merit, and views them more like suggestions instead. They insert their own need to project their identity (the subject) into the information itself, thus, this becomes a drive to implement their own personal perspective or "add to" the information in some way. With introverted intuition, we see the individual trying to do this with intuition - thus, the INTJ is always probing deeper into their own insight into something, trying to "get to the bottom" or the "absolute origin" of their own perception (intuition is a perceiving function). It is as if the INTJ is more concerned with asking itself, "why am I seeing this?" without consulting the properties of the thing it is seeing, and instead looking inward at itself to analyze it's own personal biases and configuration. This gives the INTJ an _incredible_ insight into reality, because it so deeply understands itself. The old adage, "know thyself" might best apply to the INTJ than to any other type.
> 
> The INTP has this same drive to "get to the bottom" and find the "origin" of a thing, but rather than this focus being placed on perception, it is placed on a conclusion. It questions _the final decision._ This is why the INTP is indecisive. The INTP is trying to generate the most precise answer, and this becomes a literal reflection of it's own ego and identity - it is not so much shaping the answer for it's own sake, the precision of the answer is a direct testament to the self and, in a sense, the INTP considers it to be the very _measure_ of his own competence and existence. The more the INTP reflects on an issue and contemplates it further, _the more the INTP actually exists as a living part of this universe._ It would be absolutely contradictory to the INTP's nature to _not_ do this, to simply accept a prevailing opinion or general consensus on its own merit and give it no personal evaluation whatsoever. The personal evaluation _gives legitimacy to the INTP's value as a participating entity in this reality_ and thus, the subjective identity is sated, fulfilling the introverted agenda.
> 
> All introverted functions are alike in the above respect. That is, if you really understand what Jung is saying about introversion, it is simply this: _all introverted functions reflect the desire of the individual to assert their own existence by modifying the information that is either being perceived or judged in a way that reflects their own nature and identity._ Whereas, _all extroverted functions try as little as possible to modify information in any way, so as to avoid distorting the information in any way, which would necessarily occur if the individual asserted their own perception or judgment and interfered with reality as such._ Can you see how these are exactly opposed in their attitude and approach to things?
> 
> Simply, the INTP's judgment is introverted, and the INTJ's is not. So the INTJ becomes terse with the subjective necessity of the INTP's dominant judgment, whereas the INTP becomes terse with the subjective necessity of the INTJ's dominant intuition. The INTP thinks he is perceiving the situation objectively, while the INTJ is not, and he is right. The INTJ thinks he is basing his conclusions on objective facts, while the INTP is not, and he is right. A solution is possible if the objective perception of the INTP is developed well-enough that he allows himself to accept certain facts about reality because he perceives their pattern and has incorporated those patterns into their subjective understanding, making them part of some personally accepted principle of reasoning. Another solution is when the INTJ's auxiliary thinking is based on objective facts that are generally in line with the INTP's observations, that is to say, when the prevailing wisdom of the age and widely accepted consensus is in line with what the INTP has personally decided is a matter of fact. You see, just because Ti is subjective does not mean that it cannot draw a conclusion that is in line with objective facts, only that the Ti user must do so on his or her own, they cannot just "accept" facts. Likewise, the INTJ will occasionally have similar intuitions and insights, but it must arrive at these as a reflection of who they have come to be and grown into at the present moment. In both cases a personal transformation brought about by time and exposure to experience may be necessary before a new, agreeable insight can emerge from both the INTJ and the INTP, as it is with all introverted types.


Thank you Abraxas. I think that was probably the only post on this thread that actually had anything to with MBTI typology of these types.


----------



## Cosmicsense

I blame it on boobs. boobs are the solution and problem to at least half of mans worries. 

naw, it's proly more to do with the fact that we have exactly opposite functions, lol, combined with the belief in our own superiority towards most other people, intellectually. 

intj's think that intps are lazy, and intp's think intj's leap to erroneous conclusions. at least, this is my experience (although I'm not even sure I'm an INTP, but INTJ's definitely leap out to a bunch of hooey on a regular basis!)


----------



## beth x

Abraxas said:


> The primary despondence that I witness again and again between INTPs and INTJs (a lot of this comes from first-hand experience here on PerC and elsewhere dealing with INTJs and INTPs) is the way that the INTP is more concerned with the conceptual process of building a new idea and exploring its limits in a subjective search for meaning and truth, whereas the INTJ takes truth for granted (which is to say, it is not as concerned with truth as it is with practicality) and simply accepts the objective world on it's own terms, focused more on finding ways of applying concepts that already exist, and using it's intuition to do just that.
> 
> The INTP is trying to view a thing from every arbitrary angle and comes across as a kind of useless completionist to the INTJ, and the INTJ comes across as being narrow-minded because they don't have the same fundamental mistrust of objective data that the INTP does. I've analyzed this very deeply, being most likely an INTP myself. My conclusion is that the subjective nature of the dominant function, and the objective nature of the auxiliary function is the primary cause for most conflict we can observe between the two types.
> 
> Consider how subjectivity works with each function, in this case, Ni and Ti. A subjective orientation means that the individual never accepts objective qualities or facts on their own merit, and views them more like suggestions instead. They insert their own need to project their identity (the subject) into the information itself, thus, this becomes a drive to implement their own personal perspective or "add to" the information in some way. With introverted intuition, we see the individual trying to do this with intuition - thus, the INTJ is always probing deeper into their own insight into something, trying to "get to the bottom" or the "absolute origin" of their own perception (intuition is a perceiving function). It is as if the INTJ is more concerned with asking itself, "why am I seeing this?" without consulting the properties of the thing it is seeing, and instead looking inward at itself to analyze it's own personal biases and configuration. This gives the INTJ an _incredible_ insight into reality, because it so deeply understands itself. The old adage, "know thyself" might best apply to the INTJ than to any other type.
> 
> The INTP has this same drive to "get to the bottom" and find the "origin" of a thing, but rather than this focus being placed on perception, it is placed on a conclusion. It questions _the final decision._ This is why the INTP is indecisive. The INTP is trying to generate the most precise answer, and this becomes a literal reflection of it's own ego and identity - it is not so much shaping the answer for it's own sake, the precision of the answer is a direct testament to the self and, in a sense, the INTP considers it to be the very _measure_ of his own competence and existence. The more the INTP reflects on an issue and contemplates it further, _the more the INTP actually exists as a living part of this universe._ It would be absolutely contradictory to the INTP's nature to _not_ do this, to simply accept a prevailing opinion or general consensus on its own merit and give it no personal evaluation whatsoever. The personal evaluation _gives legitimacy to the INTP's value as a participating entity in this reality_ and thus, the subjective identity is sated, fulfilling the introverted agenda.
> 
> All introverted functions are alike in the above respect. That is, if you really understand what Jung is saying about introversion, it is simply this: _all introverted functions reflect the desire of the individual to assert their own existence by modifying the information that is either being perceived or judged in a way that reflects their own nature and identity._ Whereas, _all extroverted functions try as little as possible to modify information in any way, so as to avoid distorting the information in any way, which would necessarily occur if the individual asserted their own perception or judgment and interfered with reality as such._ Can you see how these are exactly opposed in their attitude and approach to things?
> 
> Simply, the INTP's judgment is introverted, and the INTJ's is not. So the INTJ becomes terse with the subjective necessity of the INTP's dominant judgment, whereas the INTP becomes terse with the subjective necessity of the INTJ's dominant intuition. The INTP thinks he is perceiving the situation objectively, while the INTJ is not, and he is right. The INTJ thinks he is basing his conclusions on objective facts, while the INTP is not, and he is right. A solution is possible if the objective perception of the INTP is developed well-enough that he allows himself to accept certain facts about reality because he perceives their pattern and has incorporated those patterns into their subjective understanding, making them part of some personally accepted principle of reasoning. Another solution is when the INTJ's auxiliary thinking is based on objective facts that are generally in line with the INTP's observations, that is to say, when the prevailing wisdom of the age and widely accepted consensus is in line with what the INTP has personally decided is a matter of fact. You see, just because Ti is subjective does not mean that it cannot draw a conclusion that is in line with objective facts, only that the Ti user must do so on his or her own, they cannot just "accept" facts. Likewise, the INTJ will occasionally have similar intuitions and insights, but it must arrive at these as a reflection of who they have come to be and grown into at the present moment. In both cases a personal transformation brought about by time and exposure to experience may be necessary before a new, agreeable insight can emerge from both the INTJ and the INTP, as it is with all introverted types.


I think you may be right about wanting to get to the bottom of things with INTPs. I have mother and daughter who are the INTP beasties who talk and talk about things I take for granted. They will be focused on how the thing broke whilst I'm focused on how the hell I fix it. When they get to the how to fix it becomes detailed and needs to be talked about again....I've made loose plans on how to fix and not worry by the time they arrive there and it becomes a contentious issue because they shoot off in all directions where as I've shrugged and come across like I never thought about it at all.

INTPs process at a million miles an hour. I think they work harder in processing than I'd ever bother to.

It usually works out that we reach the same conclusion but I will miss out big gaps that were taken for granted.

As an aside I can see how I might have mistaken you. As a 9 I've taken you into the fold the same way I accept my family members and meld into their ways every now and then. I still have difficulties with the INTP/INTJ divide until I see the Fe/Fi differences even though there are no shared functions. Because you are a 9 too I've missed those because you dance and weave like 9 does.


----------



## Conclusion

Abraxas said:


> TTTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEXXXXXXXXXTTTTTTTTTTTT...


Quality post, I (100% unsarcastically) actually read that from one end to the other without interest flagging. But why do most of us take it for granted that conflict is inevitable? The more I read about cognitive functions and etc. the more fascinating INTJ perspectives become. So I guess what I'm asking is, why can't we all just get along?


----------



## Abraxas

Conclusion said:


> Quality post, I (100% unsarcastically) actually read that from one end to the other without interest flagging. But why do most of us take it for granted that conflict is inevitable? The more I read about cognitive functions and etc. the more fascinating INTJ perspectives become. So I guess what I'm asking is, why can't we all just get along?


Conflict is not necessarily a bad thing.


----------



## jhoro115

Abraxas said:


> Conflict is not necessarily a bad thing.


Indeed. Progress thrives through conflict. Instead of trying to settle the INTP-INTJ differences, I think the animosity should be encouraged. In fact, conflict with all types should be encouraged in my opinion :angry:


----------



## Abraxas

Zhoro Zhekov said:


> Indeed. Progress thrives through conflict. Instead of trying to settle the INTP-INTJ differences, I think the animosity should be encouraged. In fact, conflict with all types should be encouraged in my opinion :angry:


L would've won if Light hadn't cheated and used supernatural shenanigans in order to prevail.

Clearly, this proves that INTPs are better than INTJs in reality.


----------



## Salamandre

Very axiomatic Abraxas



Abraxas said:


> All introverted functions are alike in the above respect. That is, if you really understand what Jung is saying about introversion, it is simply this: _all introverted functions reflect the desire of the individual to assert their own existence by modifying the information that is either being perceived or judged in a way that reflects their own nature and identity._ Whereas, _all extroverted functions try as little as possible to modify information in any way_


I have an analogy myself which was originally intended to situate others in to exfoliating the relationship between introversion and intensity. And potentially gain valuable insight. It goes like this

Every one has 4 plastic tanks of water attributed to the functions. The largest represents dominant and has an sink at the bottom like the ones used to pour into cups. For the introverted function. And a sprinkler hovering above if an extroverted function

(Dominate->Auxiliary) After a progression of time the dominate and auxiliary tanks will interact with each other. The extroverted tank always pours in to the introverted. The latter then dispenses the excess water through it's sink 

So for example if an introvert dominate socializes with his auxiliary. The water is being poured in to the larger tank. However if to much is being distributed then it overflows before it can dispense. So that indicates the introvert is being stressed by external stimulus and is trying to now seek internal refuge. By blocking it out(auxiliary) all together. The time taken to dispense the excess water gives the impression that both dominant and auxiliary are being processed internally. 

My hypothesis is this. Perhaps the "exerting existence" mentioned earlier is really the stress from all functions besides the dominate. If intensity does not affect the intrinsic reception of an function. As in if we assume higher states have no effect on memory(necessary for detection). Then we might say memory is the varying intensity states of our different functions. 

Then if we say for introvert dominates the allocation of resources are extensive. We would notice a depravity of our other functions. For example an intj given time to relax and not pursue any objectives and excluded from excitements such as outside contact. They really do seem to become bat shit.

When the introvert dom has to exert emergency power in to the deprived functions thinking it's necessary to survive. The immediate surge of brain activity stresses out the person. It would be similar to the moments before death i would think. And particularly more powerful for the introvert dominate. 

The extrovert dominates would behave like this. The increased volume of the tank when compared to an introvert dominates auxiliary allows for more water from the sprinkler. Typically before the dominate tank is able to communicate with other ones it will over flow. So in their(extrovert dominates)youths they will have fits of excitement or rage more frequently then as adults. As auxiliaries develop the water is dispensed. However if exerted constantly then the extroverted tanks will diminish in water content. Which causes the extrovert to become more timid and unconfident. This is resolved by communicating with other people or tasks unassociated with the introverted functions or to very little degrees. This allows their extroverted tanks to recuperate. 

My theory about extroverted dominates is that a particular function is only marginally stronger than the others. This should allow them to use some extroverted function that are not in the hierarchy. But the balance is necessary to give the impression that one particular function is dominate. Intensifying another function to a higher state for too long causes them to feel stress. 

An matured person will be able to communicate with all 4 tanks. As this is done the introverted tanks will have a hose between them. This will actually allow an balance in intensity between to different functions. And the extroverted tank's sprinklers will be connected as well. 

It is said in the elderly years one becomes "all accommodating"

For the intensity theory to make sense with [Ne]-> [Ni]. We may have to say that intuition is some form of algorithm for familiar experiences. Perhaps it operates via a longer packet or a slower version of sensing which gives the impression of being broader. What the case may be we'll say the intensity of introverted intuition gives it deeper introspection then it's extroverted counter part.

*I got a bit bored writing this. Some of you guys might feel the same reading it. And much of it already seems common among axiom. However i think this kind of reiteration is good to root out the vague points.

Which seem to be how our lower functions interact with the higher. Specifically i would like to talk about Ti+ Ni but i am tired so i'm going to make this very short and brief.


----------



## SamTheMediocre

Here's how I see it. As an INTP, my INTJ friend comes to me when he struggles to understand the point of doing something. I come to him when I understand the point of doing it but really don't want to. I find hidden meanings and purpose. He does things with that information. Nothing happens without both sides existing. So we spend eternity arguing if it's really a 50/50, and if not, who has the bigger, and more important part.


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## Abraxas

It's because they're inferior to us and they need to accept it.

I can't feel good about myself unless I know I'm better than particular people.


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## Ben8

I think an INTJ and an INTP would be the ultimate tag team effort in the creation of a system. The INTP would devise a strategy and the INTJ would tell them if it is efficient enough. However, INTJs see the INTP as uninspired and therefor not as strong because of the lack of fortitude and structure. However, there are many similarities between the two, which I think is what sparks a bit of a competition. Ironically, however, the two would make the best combination in conjunction with system analysis and rebuilding.


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## Abraxas

Ben8 said:


> I think an INTJ and an INTP would be the ultimate tag team effort in the creation of a system. The INTP would devise a strategy and the INTJ would tell them if it is efficient enough. However, INTJs see the INTP as uninspired and therefor not as strong because of the lack of fortitude and structure. However, there are many similarities between the two, which I think is what sparks a bit of a competition. Ironically, however, the two would make the best combination in conjunction with system analysis and rebuilding.


From what I've observed over the years of being immersed into the MBTI pop-psychology sub-culture, it's really more a case of a lack of patience that INTJs and INTPs have with each other - the J/P difference of organization versus exploration. The INTP wants to explore and isn't really interested in "getting things done" because they see commitment to some finalized product as limiting and removing the opportunity for new insights, refinement, and further development. INTPs are perfectionists in the conceptual department, always wanting to pull an idea or a concept apart further and further, reducing ideas down to their most abstract universal categories in order to formulate grandiose theoretical constructs and symmetrical systems of thought.

INTJs can be summed up from the perspective of an INTP with the saying, "there's no time." INTJs want results that can be measured, weighed, and applied. They are practical folk who, at a certain point, have no more patience with what seems to them like meaningless abstracting. Especially when the INTP gets extremely invested into their abstractions and begins to make it look like they are just putting off committing to something. INTJs are goal-oriented, but INTPs usually don't have a very clear goal in their minds. They're more apt to just let an idea unravel in their brains until it goes off the rails into new unexplored territory. They are very much like their ENTP cousins in that respect, except that their journey is an inward subjective one, and ENTPs are more caught up in the world around them and whatever the objective future promises.

INTPs just don't care as much as INTJs about deadlines and in fact, they feel a deep emotional stress at being faced with the reality of deadlines when it comes to theory and intellectualizing. It seems unfair, unjust, and downright absurd to an INTP to limit creativity by confining it to transitory and temporal concerns such as productivity and efficiency, or arbitrary laws of thought like empiricism and naturalism. To them, all that matters is the perfection of the all-encompassing architecture of the psyche - the structure of the cosmos and all within it according to the abstract symmetry of intuitive understanding. Theory theory and more theory. What makes sense is true. Such that the world is what it is matters today but not forever.

For the INTJ, and most J's for that matter, truth is the conformity of thoughts with things. But for the INTP and most P's, truth is that which cannot be forced into conformity with anything other than itself.


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## Bricolage

SamTheMediocre said:


> As an INTP, my INTJ friend comes to me when he struggles to understand the point of doing something.


That's odd. It seems like it should be the other way around because INTPs are so lazy.


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## SamTheMediocre

Bricolage said:


> That's odd. It seems like it should be the other way around because INTPs are so lazy.


Not really. Just because I understand the point of doing it doesn't mean I will. I admit, we are lazy, but we come up with a lot of things for not so lazy people to do.


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## JPX

It comes down to: understand more, do less and understand less but do more. If you are more devoted to truth then production then you are going to come in to conflict with people who value production more then truth.


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## -Halo-

Each one of you is smarter than the other.


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## Abraxas

-Halo- said:


> Each one of you is smarter than the other.


ENTJs and ENTPs are the smartest though. I always find myself secretly admiring and even imitating my ENTP/J friends without immediately realizing it.

Every INTP is an ENTP on the inside, and every INTJ is an ENTJ on the inside, after all.

What we need is a circle of four. Join us, and together we could rule the galaxy as fathers and sons!


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## Empty

I like observing INTJ behavior. I find it interesting at times, and my interjections are typically well-received by this particular type. Most importantly, like most NTs, they possess a keen mind able to pick up the subtleties of language. I find the company of those willing to entertain the _game of words_ immensely enjoyable.

As for argumentation, I tend to avoid arguing with INTJs not because I want to, but because my goals and theirs are typically quite different. Obviously, if subject-matter supersedes all else, discourse is absolutely welcome. 

With experience and analysis, however, one will see that the content being discussed between the two subforums tend to be quite different.


----------



## Mendi the ISFJ

SamTheMediocre said:


> Here's how I see it. As an INTP, my INTJ friend comes to me when he struggles to understand the point of doing something. I come to him when I understand the point of doing it but really don't want to


seems like that would annoy an INTJ, i wouldnt think that they would immediately care if you WANT to do it or not.


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## cyamitide

In socionics this kind of match of types is known as Quasi-Identical relations. These relations are known to lead to constant small-scale arguing. More about this here:
*INTJ relationship type* and *INTP relationship types*


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## Mendi the ISFJ

cyamitide said:


> In socionics this kind of match of types is known as Quasi-Identical relations. These relations are known to lead to constant small-scale arguing. More about this here:
> *INTJ relationship type* and *INTP relationship types*


do you know what other type combinations fall under this category?


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## Dark NiTe

Probably all the types that share the first three letters, therefore have completely different functions. So ISFP/ISFJ etc.


----------



## FX

benr3600 said:


> Probably all the types that share the first three letters, therefore have completely different functions. So ISFP/ISFJ etc.


I think this is right. At the least, I know it applies in the case of INTJ/INTP.


----------



## cyamitide

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> do you know what other type combinations fall under this category?


Any combination of types that has the first 3 letters same and only differs on last J/P letter are called quasi-identicals. INFP/INFJ, ESTP/ESTJ, and so on.

Quasi-identical types are deceptive in their surface similarity, but underneath they are nothing alike. They are often drawn to each other based on similarity of interests, but later find out that their communication is very strained and their values are sufficiently different because they have no cognitive functions in common. Before they find that out, they usually try to persuade each other of their point of view, which results in a lot of bickering. At the same time they can't really offend or hurt one another so this quasi-friendship that is based on lots and lots of arguing may endure for a while. Usually quasi-relations feel slightly draining and quasis exist in parallel to one another.


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## Octavian

I don't see how we could have a rivalry with the INTPs, INTPs don't even do things. I personally view my competition as: ENTJ, ESTJ, ISTJ. As Te, Ni, Si are typically the most difficult functions to deal with, when opposed to your agendas. The INTJ/INTP "rivalry" definitely seems one sided.


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## cali

I haven't read through this forum, but here's my guess:

INTJs have Te as their auxiliary, which pushes them to be successful/intelligent in a way that is acknowledged by society. Also, they actually put their ideas into action, which also causes society to acknowledge their competence.

INTPs are the opposite of what I said above, yet MBTI desriptions basically describe INTPs as geniuses and INTJs as masterminds, so they sort of feel that they've been cheated out of their true place in society by the INTJ? 
Also, INTJs seem to be more prone to becoming competent in one area and then getting recognized for their competence(no data, just irl experience), whereas the INTPs' "P-ness" causes their interests to be all over the place and it usually takes them awhile to be recognized (if ever).

(You can probably tell from this that I have huge "J-ness" envy.)


----------



## cali

absentminded said:


> Well, we do compete for different things, usually. In my experience, INTPs want completely different things than INTJs.


The conclusion that I've come to is that our "competition" is ridiculous because we're competing for different things. INTPs basically want to know that they are the most ingenious type (and possess the most "raw" intelligence), whereas INTJs want to be the most...successful? I'm not exactly sure what they want, but the comments of INTJs saying things like "I consider ESTJs and ENTJs my competition" has really opened my eyes to how different the INTs are from each other. 

Personally, I don't see why I would INTPs compete with an ESTJ for anything in any arena. ESTJs seem to care about following the rules to ensure success, world domination and reading instruction manuals while INTPs tend to care about things like quantum entanglement, learning C++, and reading books about things like "omg what if everything and everyone is just a figment of my imagination and only I exist" (subjective idealism). If the main competitor of an ESTJ could be an INTJ, and an INTJ would be competing with an INTP, what the heck would this hypothetical competition be about?

(This thread has rid me of my J-ness envy woohoo)


----------



## Momentz

I think it's safe to come to the conclusion that both value knowledge and share some other qualities, therefore have a bit of a natural rivalry. That, and different types tend to envy other types over certain characteristics, and this might be happening between INTPs and INTJs. But the bottom line is that the competition is pointless.


----------



## SherlockHouse

Agelastos said:


> Pretty much all the people responsible for the Bomb were *NTPs.


Honestly I don't know. Quantum physics sure isn't my field of expertise. I'm more of a social sciences/humanities guy myself. I just heard somewhere that Oppenheimer was an *E*NTP, and I know he's "the father of the atomic bomb," so I have to assume that ENTPs would just nuke all the INTPs and INTJs.


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## SherlockHouse

moltobene said:


> Defense industry complex?
> 
> I want the "Touche" back, I was calling everybody to come read it and you ninja trolled me!


That's how I (t)roll.


----------



## SherlockHouse

Agelastos said:


> And Albert Speer was an INTP, so... *cackles maniacally*


So the least evil Nazi and architect was an INTP? What are you going to do, design the cities we nuke?


----------



## Agelastos

SherlockHouse said:


> So the least evil Nazi and architect was an INTP? What are you going to do, design the cities we nuke?


The "architect of the Holocaust" and the minister of armaments.
Definitely not less "evil" than, say, Rommel...


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## SherlockHouse

Agelastos said:


> The "architect of the Holocaust" and the minister of armaments.
> Definitely not less evil than, say, Rommel...


Wrong, that wasn't Speer. That was Himmler. (Not the armaments part, the Holocaust part. Speer had nothing to do with the Holocaust.) Speer was a literal architect who designed buildings and cities for Hitler. Plus he lied to him and covered things up and did not believe/renounced Nazi ideology by the end, and he got off easy at Nuremberg. And Rommel was never really a Nazi at all, just a dutiful German soldier. He tried to kill Hitler. I don't even count him as a Nazi.


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## Agelastos

SherlockHouse said:


> Wrong, that wasn't Speer. That was Himmler. Speer was a literal architect who designed buildings and cities for Hitler. Plus he lied to him and covered things up and did not believe Nazi ideology by the end, and he got off easy at Nuremberg. And Rommel was never really a Nazi at all. He tried to kill Hitler. I don't even count him as a Nazi.


Actually, it was Adolf Eichmann. I remembered wrong. But Albert Speer _was_ Minister of Armaments and War Production.
Himmler was Reichsführer of the SS, and while he definitely had a hand in the Holocaust, he (along with Karl Maria Wiligut and the Ahnenerbe) was mostly too busy chasing after legends like the Spear of Longinus and the Holy Grail.

Well, I wouldn't count Rommel as a Nazi either, but a lot of people seem to consider him "Nazi by association".


----------



## SherlockHouse

Agelastos said:


> Actually, it was Adolf Eichmann. I remembered wrong. But Albert Speer _was_ Minister of Armaments and War Production.
> Himmler was Reichsführer of the SS, and while he was definitely had a hand in the Holocaust, he was mostly too busy chasing after legends like the Spear of Longinus and the Holy Grail.
> 
> Well, I wouldn't count Rommel as a Nazi either, but a lot of people seem to consider him "Nazi by association".


Speer claimed he planned to assassinate Hitler too. Not sure if that was true or not, but he certainly directly disobeyed him and renounced him. I don't think he was that bad a guy. As far as Nazis go anyway.

As for Himmler, you sure you haven't been watching too much Indiana Jones? The guy was THE architect and overseer of the concentration camps. He had a more hands-on role in their design and operation than any other Nazi. Eichmann was certainly heavily involved as well, but I wouldn't say he was more involved than Himmler. Himmler was easily the most important architect of the Holocaust.


----------



## Agelastos

SherlockHouse said:


> Speer claimed he planned to assassinate Hitler too. Not sure if that was true or not, but he certainly directly disobeyed him and renounced him. I don't think he was that bad a guy. As far as Nazis go anyway.
> 
> As for Himmler, you sure you haven't been watching too much Indiana Jones? The guy was THE architect and overseer of the concentration camps. He had a more hands-on role in their design and operation than any other Nazi. Eichmann was certainly heavily involved as well, but I wouldn't say he was more involved than Himmler. Himmler was easily the most important architect of the Holocaust.


No, I certainly haven't watched too much Indiana Jones. But I have read lots of books about Himmler and his little Rasputin-esque "spiritual advisor", Karl Maria Wiligut; about his reasons for creating the Ahnenerbe, his ties to the Völkisch movement, and his strong belief in the occult. Ffs, just look at Wewelsburg Castle! The man wanted to be King Arthur.

And Eichmann is still the one called "the architect of the Holocaust". Whether you believe that to be correct or not isn't really relevant.


----------



## moltobene

INTJs generally like INTPs, they love to visit our forums and I have found that apreciation outside this minicosmos that PerC is.

More than competition I sense they kinda seek us at times; when they are not ignoring us, that is 

I have seen pretty nice words towards us coming from them on these forums. I even stumbled on a 1-2 years old post labeling us as the "humane scientists" version or something like that.

Come on, let's high-five and invade Poland.


----------



## The Trollmaster

SherlockHouse said:


> so I have to assume that ENTPs would just nuke all the INTPs and INTJs.


Why nuke them when instead you can just find a way to create a black hole at the center of the Earth's core that will consume everyone on the Earth?


----------



## Agelastos

The Trollmaster said:


> Why nuke them when instead you can just find a way to create a black hole at the center of the Earth's core that will consume everyone on the Earth?


Why settle with earth? Stop being such an underachiever! Let's annihilate the universe!


----------



## Max

Agelastos said:


> Why settle with earth? Stop being such an underachiever! Let's annihilate the universe!


What about zero gravity?


----------



## SherlockHouse

The Trollmaster said:


> Why nuke them when instead you can just find a way to create a black hole at the center of the Earth's core that will consume everyone on the Earth?


Because then the ENTPs will be consumed too.


----------



## SherlockHouse

Agelastos said:


> No, I certainly haven't watched too much Indiana Jones. But I have read lots of books about Himmler and his little Rasputin-esque "spiritual advisor", Karl Maria Wiligut; about his reasons for creating the Ahnenerbe, his ties to the Völkisch movement, and his strong belief in the occult. Ffs, just look at Wewelsburg Castle! The man wanted to be King Arthur.
> 
> And Eichmann is still the one called "the architect of the Holocaust". Whether you believe that to be correct or not isn't really relevant.


Uh, Himmler is still called the architect of the Holocaust. Whether you believe that to be correct or not isn't really relevant. Do I really have to pull out references here? Jesus, I thought this was common knowledge. There have been books about Himmler that have the title "architect" in them. There have been articles about Himmler proclaiming him to be the architect of the holocaust. There are several links in Himmler's Wiki page backing up the assertion that he was the architect of the holocaust, mentioned multiple times in the article. You're the one who didn't even know Speer was a literal architect and thought he was involved with the Holocaust. Clearly you just Googled it and saw someone say Eichmann was the architect of the Holocaust, and while he may have been ONE of the architects, Himmler was still the head guy. Your failure was in "the one," as if only one person ever has been called the architect of the Holocaust. Eichmann was given fewer responsibilities, he was ranked beneath Himmler in the SS, and Himmler had more often and more direct contact with the camps, being chief overseer, plus he had a more active role in the design of the "Final Solution" as a whole. No matter what else Himmler did, and I never said he didn't do those things, he was definitely also the architect of the Holocaust. He more than anyone had more direct influence over the design and execution of the "Final Solution." And it doesn't really matter if there is someone else who is also given the title of "architect" of the Holocaust; multiple people could be accurately given that name, but Himmler definitely had an enormously crucial role in it and I cannot emphasize that enough. Your downplaying it in favor of the "King Arthur" aspect of him is odd. It is as if you do not believe it is possible that could be true and he could still be heavily involved in the Holocaust.


----------



## Agelastos

SherlockHouse said:


> Uh, Himmler is still called the architect of the Holocaust. Whether you believe that to be correct or not isn't really relevant. Do I really have to pull out references here? Jesus, I thought this was common knowledge. There have been books about Himmler that have the title "architect" in them. There have been articles about Himmler proclaiming him to be the architect of the holocaust. There are several links in Himmler's Wiki page backing up the assertion that he was the architect of the holocaust, mentioned multiple times in the article. You're the one who didn't even know Speer was a literal architect and thought he was involved with the Holocaust. Clearly you just Googled it and saw someone say Eichmann was the architect of the Holocaust, and while he may have been ONE of the architects, Himmler was still the head guy. Your failure was in "the one," as if only one person ever has been called the architect of the Holocaust. Eichmann was given fewer responsibilities, he was ranked beneath Himmler in the SS, and Himmler had more often and more direct contact with the camps, being chief overseer, plus he had a more active role in the design of the "Final Solution" as a whole. No matter what else Himmler did, and I never said he didn't do those things, he was definitely also the architect of the Holocaust. He more than anyone had more direct influence over the design and execution of the "Final Solution." And it doesn't really matter if there is someone else who is also given the title of "architect" of the Holocaust; multiple people could be accurately given that name, but Himmler definitely had an enormously crucial role in it and I cannot emphasize that enough. Your downplaying it in favor of the "King Arthur" aspect of him is odd. It is as if you do not believe it is possible that could be true and he could still be heavily involved in the Holocaust.


I know that he was heavily involved in the Holocaust. I know that he was in charge of the death camps, since they were run by the SS. All I was saying is that the epithet "architect of the Holocaust" is usually assigned to Adolf Eichmann (because he organized the logistical aspects of the Holocaust). I also know that a lot of people argue that Himmler was the real "architect of the Holocaust", but that doesn't change the fact that Eichmann was the first person to wear that badge and is the one most commonly associated with that title.

And my "downplaying it in favor of the King Arthur aspect of him" was meant as a joke. My last post was in response to you claiming that his quest for various mythological objects and places was just fiction (I know you didn't say that, but don't pretend like it wasn't heavily implied) and that I had "watched too much Indiana Jones".

And of course I knew that Speer was an actual architect, but he was also the minister of armaments and weapons production. Yes, I remembered wrong when I said that he was involved in the Holocaust. I already admitted that. And no, I did not "just Google" anything.

The last paragraph of my last post came out a bit more aggressive than intended, and for that I apologize.


----------



## The Trollmaster

SherlockHouse said:


> Because then the ENTPs will be consumed too.


That's irrelevant.


----------



## Strelok

moltobene said:


> INTJs generally like INTPs


I don't know what _you_ have been reading?


----------



## moltobene

Strelok said:


> I don't know what _you_ have been reading?


Non-competitive threads?
It is not like I keep notes in a journal so do not expect quotes.

People do role play and polarize for the sake of entertainment or discussion more than actual day to day beliefs. Google for "ARGUMENT IS WAR".


----------



## tokillamockinghuman

I think maybe each type has a fundamental need to be the best. And each are equally convinced they are the best, generally speaking of course.

I know I do.... only in my field of course.


----------



## Stasis

Strelok said:


> I don't know what _you_ have been reading?


What have you been reading?


----------



## BigApplePi

Strelok said:


> What?


I had stated


> Originally Posted by *BigApplePi*
> To me competition is a symptom not a cause. N versus J is the cause. <- Whoops. I meant P vs J.


Don't know if this helps. What I meant was Js are disposed to come to conclusions. Ps are disposed to survey the land. Competition could arise from this if the P person wants to dispute the J position and the J person wants to reject the P positions (plural). 

Competition doesn't *have* to arise. The P person could admire the J's thinking. Either could say, "We agree to disagree."

Does that help any?


----------



## Strelok

BigApplePi said:


> ...


So you meant "P versus J" not "N versus J"?

If so, I agree.


----------



## BigApplePi

Strelok said:


> So you meant "P versus J" not "N versus J"?
> 
> If so, I agree.


Curses. Typo fixed, lol.


----------



## BigApplePi

I'll try again with some thoughts on this INTJ and INTP. (I could be repeating myself but that's okay.) Personally I dislike competition though I find myself sometimes in it. As a putative INTP I want to see the whole picture. I don't want to push one side and win an argument. I only want to push one side when it is left out. When sometime is left out I want to fill in the missing part no matter how trivial it could seem. It's like a hole in the pot. I want to find it and patch it. The P in INTP mean perception. I want to see the blind spot and if I spy it it must be brought out.

I will assume the INTJ is vastly different. The J in INTJ stands for judgment. That means the INTJ is prone to select the best of choices with what I assume will be the application of that choice when it becomes practical.

Conflict and competition arises when the INTJ has made a judgment and the INTP wants to look at other judgments. The result can a frustrating for both sides. The INTP may see occasions where the selected judgement doesn't work. On the other hand it can be reinforcing if the INTP looks into the INTJ judgments and new things comes out to stabilize and reinforce why that judgment was made.


----------



## SOMALI PIRATE

Abraxas said:


> ENTJs and ENTPs are the smartest though. I always find myself secretly admiring and even imitating my ENTP/J friends without immediately realizing it.
> 
> Every INTP is an ENTP on the inside, and every INTJ is an ENTJ on the inside, after all.
> 
> What we need is a circle of four. Join us, and together we could rule the galaxy as fathers and sons!


I cant think of a more dull , emotionally empty not to mention horrendously boring galaxy .


----------



## 1yesman9

SOMALI PIRATE said:


> I cant think of a more dull , emotionally empty not to mention horrendously boring galaxy .


"boring"

hell alot more chaotic than the one we live in. 50% of the population NTP?


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## SOMALI PIRATE

1yesman9 said:


> "boring"
> 
> hell alot more chaotic than the one we live in. 50% of the population NTP?


the one we live in is dominated by SJ's off coarse its boring as well ...Imagine an SP world though . 
a world full of SP's kinda reminds me of heaven for some reason . a world full of young child like
beautiful people who are absolutely devoted to life in the moment and enjoy every second of it . 

by the way there is nothing chaotic about Ti or Ne .


----------



## 1yesman9

SOMALI PIRATE said:


> the one we live in is dominated by SJ's off coarse its boring as well ...Imagine an SP world though .
> a world full of SP's kinda reminds me of heaven for some reason . a world full of young child like
> beautiful people who are absolutely devoted to life in the moment and enjoy every second of it .
> 
> by the way there is nothing chaotic about Ti or Ne .


Nope, nothing chaotic about Ne at all.

~

Have you ever meant an ENTP irl?

Also, how is Se anymore "chaotic" than Ne? Ne's most persistent form is that of contradicting what's presented to them, or expanding upon it. Ne-doms are literally the definition of chaotic, while an Se dom is experiencing based off the presented concrete existence, the opposite of "chaotic". Experiencing life in the moment isn't the equivalent of being chaotic. "Rashness" is a more fitting definition.


----------



## Abraxas

SOMALI PIRATE said:


> I cant think of a more dull , emotionally empty not to mention horrendously boring galaxy .


----------



## LaughingIsaac

I think lots of it is having incredibly similar goals and places in the world but tending to be very different. This is demonstrated by me trying to tutor my INTJ friend in some mathematical Chemistry (Rate equations). We ended up talking about how she is far better than me in Pure Mathematics and I far better than her in Scientifically related Mathematics because of the differences in going about it. She likes to have rules and go about carrying out those rules. I like to question and to speculate and to work out rules myself and then to apply those rules to situations. I think both of those skills are needed by thinkers and so there's a clash in which INTJ's find the INTP's constant occupation with 'Why?' and 'What could happen?' and slight scatterbrainedness annoying and inconsequential whilst hte INTP's find the INTJ's deep devotion to rules they didn't come up with frustratingly uninspirational.


----------



## Mendi the ISFJ

SOMALI PIRATE said:


> the one we live in is dominated by SJ's off coarse its boring as well ...Imagine an SP world though


makes me think of the streets of NY city or perhaps San Francisco.


----------



## SOMALI PIRATE

when we compare and contrast SPs to XNXPs , I know which group defines the opposite of boring .
don't get me wrong Ne are the most creative and spontaneous intuitive types due to their 
Perceiving function .

and yes I've meat ENTPs irl and though i admit they were more chaotic than me , hey were nothing
compared to ESTPs and ESFPs I know .


----------



## SOMALI PIRATE

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> makes me think of the streets of NY city or perhaps San Francisco.


those are no boring places though , my dear boring SJ .


----------



## Grandmaster Yoda




----------



## BigApplePi

Lifting from _admiration in 16 types_ this shows a basic difference. I mechanically pulled these two lines out without anything in the way of explanation.


INTP: Uses public generalities to support private thinking.

INTJ: Uses public thinking to support private generalities.


----------



## Sinister Magick

I'm guessing it's derived from the INTJ's desire to be dominant & the INTP's refusal to be ruled, so it comes down to a battle of wits/intellect? (Ni & Te VS. Ti & Ne)

(Actually this is the first time that I've been aware of such a conflict)


----------



## BigApplePi

Sinister Magick said:


> I'm guessing it's derived from the INTJ's desire to be dominant & the INTP's refusal to be ruled, so it comes down to a battle of wits/intellect? (Ni & Te VS. Ti & Ne)
> 
> (Actually this is the first time that I've been aware of such a conflict)


I don't see there has to be a conflict. The conflict could arise if the INTJ wants to focus or act on something while the INTP wants to continue to explore the field. On the other hand there could be cooperation instead if the INTJ is entertaining a conclusion and the INTP, looking around, sheds some light on that conclusion. It could go either way.

The way I see it, the INTP opens up and explores; the INTJ hones in and focuses.


----------



## platorepublic

I think this only happens online.


----------



## Grandmaster Yoda

platorepublic said:


> I think this only happens online.


That's because INTJs and INTPs don't leave their houses and laboratories enough to see each other.


----------



## platorepublic

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> That's because INTJs and INTPs don't leave their houses and laboratories enough to see each other.


Doesn't matter where they are, they are in their own heads.


----------



## Mendi the ISFJ

SOMALI PIRATE said:


> those are no boring places though , my dear boring SJ .


i agree they are too spontaneous to be boring.


----------



## Vayne

It's in our nature. Let the game begin. *grin*


----------



## AliceWonder

I don't have any problems with INTJs but I'm new at this so maybe I just don't know any better 

okay some scientists can be condescending when I point out flaws in their speculation within their field, but not sure they are INTJs.

The group I suspect I am most likely to have problem with are the ESTPs.

If I am right, and I might be wrong about this, ESTPs are responsible for the kind of software development I hate the most, the growing trend of not caring if it is designed right, buggy, or even if it has security flaws - just get it out the door and market it well and then put a good PR spin on it when the bugs cause a customer issues.


----------



## ninjahitsawall

AliceWonder said:


> I don't have any problems with INTJs but I'm new at this so maybe I just don't know any better
> 
> okay some scientists can be condescending when I point out flaws in their speculation within their field, but not sure they are INTJs.
> 
> The group I suspect I am most likely to have problem with are the ESTPs.
> 
> If I am right, and I might be wrong about this, ESTPs are responsible for the kind of software development I hate the most, the growing trend of not caring if it is designed right, buggy, or even if it has security flaws - just get it out the door and market it well and then put a good PR spin on it when the bugs cause a customer issues.


It's only in software development where that trend bothers you? :dry: 

I think INTP's and INTJ's tend to take very different routes, but also tend to end up at the same end point, so there's this "whose way is_ really _the best way?" sort of competition, although I personally can't take it that seriously.


----------



## BigApplePi

Minimal: INTJs want to get it done; INTPs want to continue.


----------



## Empty

There's no competition. INTPs inherent knack for laziness may be the cause for some (real or perceived) sense of incompetency which, when compared to INTJs who tend to be more generally productive, probably causes some mental anguish on part of the INTP. A negative response on the part of the INTP, in my opinion, is generally the product of a mentally still-childish modality. 

As INTPs generally strive for competence akin to INTJs, the _lack of_ is probably the prime motivator in your so-called 'competition.' 

I think no INTP who is competent in the same field as a corresponding INTJ will ever feel the need, or even want, of a 'competition.'


----------



## BigApplePi

Empty said:


> There's no competition. INTPs inherent knack for laziness may be the cause for some (real or perceived) sense of incompetency which, when compared to INTJs who tend to be more generally productive, probably causes some mental anguish on part of the INTP. A negative response on the part of the INTP, in my opinion, is generally the product of a mentally still-childish modality.
> 
> As INTPs generally strive for competence akin to INTJs, the _lack of_ is probably the prime motivator in your so-called 'competition.'
> 
> I think no INTP who is competent in the same field as a corresponding INTJ will ever feel the need, or even want, of a 'competition.'


Comments. If the INTP is "competent", meaning a skilled thinker, an INTJ could be the opposite of a competitor. They would be an enhancer to the thinking. Conversely an INTJ looking for critiques to their thinking would welcome an INTP for this skill. 

@*Empty. *This "laziness" you are talking about could be a hazard of the Ne experience where the Ne lacks development and therefore an envisioned and determined goal. I say this in defense of the INTP because it is very real. I remember when I was younger when I had limited goals, naturally I didn't want to be forced to do something I didn't know anything about which carried the appearance of being dangerous to me. Fortunately this is correctable.

Competition would come naturally from conflicting thinking. How so? As I said earlier, the INTJ may be ready with their determined focus while the INTP with their broad Ne, not being ready may not want to focus on that one thing. This focus-don't focus would present a conflict. Said a little more harshly, the INTP may believe the INTJ is plain wrong where in reality they are not wrong ... just not taking other things into account. The INTJ believing they are right may not want to delve into the INTP's objections.


----------



## Crimplene for men

Well, having been romantically involved with an INTJ for 8 years (if romantic is the correct term for an INTP and INTJ couple), there is a certain amount of mental and verbal sparring involved. 

He's more concerned with him being right, things being right and those things being executed in the right way.

I'm more concerned with learning for the fun of it and get bored more easily. I don't much care for his rigid adherence to his 'processes' and find great amusement in this anal retentive quality. 

However, I don't think I could have 'settled down' with anyone else. Neither of us can be bothered with faffy romantic stuff and we both have pretty simple needs, We give each other plenty of space. I think there can be a great deal of understanding, mutual respect and, even love, between an INTP and an INTJ.


----------



## poteau

Hi. As a INTX, who after some research and agony decided to settle for the time being that MBTI system can't be perfect and such a thing as INTX might exists, I think I can offer some explanation for that.

Because, when I first thought I was INTJ, I was envious of INTP's Ti, something I considered to be the purest form of logic, and thus wanted rather to be an INTP. It seemed unfair that we(at that time, that meant INTJ) only have seemingly illogical Ni and INTP's get to have some really analytical and super-intelligent Ti! I thought, "Well, that Ti thing must have been the reason why I was merely good at Maths but not the best! And why I never got around to read Godel, Escher, Bach!" I generally like to think myself to be the smartest person in the room, you know ;p. Someone who is inherently smarter than me? No way!

And then the moment I realized I don't really fit some of the descriptions of INTJ, I started to envy INTJ's Te, the ability to get things done, the practical intelligence! If I hate myself, then it's for my procrastination, and INTJ's don't have this problem?! Arrrrrgh!


----------



## Aquamarine

Never noticed that. I thought INTPs just aren't interested in getting involved in competition as we tend to prefer performing in short bursts as opposed to constantly work towards a specific goal unless necessary, and INTJs aren't as keen as the ENTJs are for participating in competition. I think it makes more sense to witness a group of INTJs playfully competing with each other. I daresay I have yet to meet an INTP who's keen on competition so far. All I know is that INTPs and INTJs are not likely to agree on anything due to their functional differences, but that would turn into a debate, not a competition.


----------



## Aquamarine

poteau said:


> Hi. As a INTX, who after some research and agony decided to settle for the time being that MBTI system can't be perfect and such a thing as INTX might exists, I think I can offer some explanation for that.
> 
> Because, when I first thought I was INTJ, I was envious of INTP's Ti, something I considered to be the purest form of logic, and thus wanted rather to be an INTP. It seemed unfair that we(at that time, that meant INTJ) only have seemingly illogical Ni and INTP's get to have some really analytical and super-intelligent Ti! I thought, "Well, that Ti thing must have been the reason why I was merely good at Maths but not the best! And why I never got around to read Godel, Escher, Bach!" I generally like to think myself to be the smartest person in the room, you know ;p. Someone who is inherently smarter than me? No way!
> 
> And then the moment I realized I don't really fit some of the descriptions of INTJ, I started to envy INTJ's Te, the ability to get things done, the practical intelligence! If I hate myself, then it's for my procrastination, and INTJ's don't have this problem?! Arrrrrgh!


You need to take a cognitive functions test if your type is very ambiguous. Functions may give an advantage or predisposition towards being good in certain stuff, but not every INTP or INTJ is good in math despite the inclination to be good in it, and you can find individuals of other MBTI types who are good in math too. I think learning math requires as much Si as Ti is needed. There's no such thing as an illogical functions either. So put aside all your assumption of what each function means and which type you prefer to be, and study each cognitive function and determine which ones you are stronger in. INTPs and INTJs may seem similar, but their outlooks and perspectives are quite different owing to their functional differences.

So far you've decided that your first function is an introverted function, but are just torn between Ti/Ne or Ni/Te, so focus on researching these 2 pairs first and understand what they mean. Making assumptions beforehand isn't going to be helpful, though, as you may well be another completely different type for all you know.


----------



## poteau

Aquamarine said:


> You need to take a cognitive functions test if your type is very ambiguous.


Done that, and ended up even more confused.







According to cognitivequiz.com, my primary functions are Ti, Ni, Te with negligible margin, while keys2recognitions.com decided I'm putting good use of my Ni, Ti, Ne, Te almost equally.



Aquamarine said:


> There's no such thing as an illogical functions either. So put aside all your assumption of what each function means and which type you prefer to be, and study each cognitive function and determine which ones you are stronger in.


Of course you are right. I intend to do just that, but to be honest I'm not entirely sure I can keep my biases at bay. Because I always want and expect something better for me. More so if it concerns intellectual faculty. If I am to be an INTx, in exchange of being the clumsy and the most emotionally clueless girl around(my sister's words), I would really like to be the best one. I don't mean to say that either INTP or INTJ is inherently better, but that no matter which type I am, I am likely to be envious of the other type. I just assumed that other INT's would share the same urge to be the best; hence the rivalry.



Aquamarine said:


> So far you've decided that your first function is an introverted function, but are just torn between Ti/Ne or Ni/Te, so focus on researching these 2 pairs first and understand what they mean. Making assumptions beforehand isn't going to be helpful, though, as you may well be another completely different type for all you know.


Thanx for the advice. Yeah, while there's no way I have S's or Fe as my top two, I could actually turn out to be an INFP.


----------



## Aquamarine

poteau said:


> Done that, and ended up even more confused. According to cognitivequiz.com, my primary functions are Ti, Ni, Te with negligible margin, while keys2recognitions.com decided I'm putting good use of my Ni, Ti, Ne, Te almost equally.
> 
> 
> Of course you are right. I intend to do just that, but to be honest I'm not entirely sure I can keep my biases at bay. Because I always want and expect something better for me. More so if it concerns intellectual faculty. If I am to be an INTx, in exchange of being the clumsy and the most emotionally clueless girl around(my sister's words), I would really like to be the best one. I don't mean to say that either INTP or INTJ is inherently better, but that no matter which type I am, I am likely to be envious of the other type. I just assumed that other INT's would share the same urge to be the best; hence the rivalry.
> 
> 
> Thanx for the advice. Yeah, while there's no way I have S's or Fe as my top two, I could actually turn out to be an INFP.


Witth Ti as your strongest, you're likely an INTP with underdeveloped Ne.

Well, that's a hallmark trait of INTP. Even after many of us are typed, we keep questioning if we got our type right, because nobody can perfectly fit the type perfectly (with Ti we focus a lot on details). INTJs, I hear, tend to see that their type fits then closest among all, and are more sure of their type (as Te puts more focus on approximation and the big picture). LOL, so am I (and I was also emotionally clueless as my Fe was underdeveloped). Well, the grass is always greener, or seem to be, on the other side. Hmm, as far as I know, INTPs aren't usually keen on competition, INTJs are to a limited degree, and the ENTJs are the most focused on it. Then again, every person is different, so maybe you've a competitive streak, though you sound more like you just want to be the best version of yourself, which can be a universal desire throughout all MBTI types.

No problem. Though I guess you are an INTP, especially how you find Ni illogical as I used to, due to misunderstanding it. Take functions as tools, which are neutral on their own. It's just our perception of how some people use the tools that seem illogical, so it's really how the person uses the function that registers as illogical with our perception.


----------



## BigApplePi

@*Aquamarine* and @*poteau*.

Hi. I looked at your posts talking about and puzzling about which type one is. What about this below? Putting oneself as a type in the first place is a theory, not a fact ... that is, that one IS a type in the first place. My opinion is these cognitive functions have to be developed first and then when you see something you might have a type. I, for the most part put myself as INTP, but wait ... .

This Ti Ne and Ni Te thing has to do with how we relate to the inside and outside world. They tend to polarize but there is no reason why we can't experience all four. If most of them are undeveloped then they can get jumbled ... out of order. That says one's type is unknown. Once developed they polarize. Why? I haven't figured that out yet so this is a theory. Are you with me so far?

Speaking for me, I said I am INTP. I'm never finished with a theory. But I've said some definite things above. That sounds like INTJ. Do you see the difference? 

Polarization. More thoughts. Take the inside and outside world. One can naturally look at the outside world and see logic and order (Te) and one forms an opinion (Ni). But if one's outside experience is quite limited one can't get very far. That leaves one with Ti to puzzle about things. Out goes the Ni, rejected because it doesn't work. One goes back to the outside world this time not to form judgments about it but to get a feeling for it (Ne) and take it in instead. The more experience of this outside world the better (Ne). Back to thinking about what one has experienced (Ti). If one remains in doubt, one sticks with continuing Ti Ne. This is INTP.

Now look at the opposite. If in trying out this Ti Ne, things harden ... that is, this "Ne" gets to be where we "know" what is going on and we see the logic of it, we have Te instead. We "know" how Te works and grasp what it means and start to use it, we have Ni. As long as this Ni is valuable we now own it and go back to Te to support it. So we continue with Ni Te. This is INTJ.

How's that for the theory of polarization? You may have to read the above several times. Me too. I had a few typos which really messed up what I was saying. I hope I don't have more.

I'm just winging this giving you my thoughts. I have cleaned up the logic and gone further because I'm curious as to what you think, if anything, of this.

More thoughts. This "polarization" idea irks me. I want to nail how it occurs. Try this: There is a difference beween knowledge and ignorance. Knowledge is something we can do something with. Once we have it, it becomes very valuable. If we want to use it or we have to use it, we do things with it whether it is perfect or not. This corresponds to the INTJ attitude. 

Ignorance is played differently. We are ignorant but have to do something to continue the living process. So we thrash around looking for what to do. We grasp at experience, ours and others, looking to make some sense of it all. Failing, we can never be sure. This is a state of not knowing what to do or to make of things. We continue to mull things over forever trying to put things in order and can never quite get things right so we continue because with can't live with this ignorance but we have to. This is the INTP attitude.

Summary: The INTP/INTJ difference is the clash between ignorance and knowledge.
___________________________________

Even more thoughts. These thoughts don't belong here but I'm putting them down lest I forget. Knowledge and ignorance are big powerful concepts. Of the two, ignorance is not given proper credit. Who wants to admit they are ignorant? Who want to admit to others they live in ignorance? When one looks at themself they can judge themself knowledgeable or ignorant. Outsiders see things differently. One can see a "knowledgeable" person as ignorant and an "ignorant" person as knowledgeable. It's like "You stupid jerk" and "Out of the mouths of babes."

Now I have to worry about those typos.


----------



## Grandmaster Yoda

BigApplePi said:


> Minimal: INTJs want to get it done; INTPs want to continue.


That is technically inaccurate. Ti is a judging fiction and Ni is a perceiving function. For INTJs there is actually no end, they keep their ears open for new information to synthesize and create an abstract impression upon. Te is only secondary, it's like testing the hypothesis, the point is the theory not the experiment, the experiment is just to prove that the theory is true. 
INTPs have an "end". But neither type is really obvious in this because of introversion. The J/P dichotomy with introverts blurs things up. INTPs want to create their own little logical framework that they alter through their lives. They come off as unbiased because they judge for themselves, they don't impose on anyway. All discipline is self-discipline, INTPs don't control their environment, they control themselves. As they get older, they become increasingly close minded for a lack of a better work or I should say "more sure of themselves" then they start to stick with it. An example often cited is when Einstein refuses to accept quantum mechanics because "god doesn't play dice". In MBTI descriptions it usually says something like "INTPs are open minded and flexible, until one of their principles is violated resulting in them arguing tirelessly." That's an important note, very important as this differentiates INTPs as judging dominant types rather than similar ENTPs who really see no "end" more like an INTJ.


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## koalaroo

Who needs either when you can have ENTJs?


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## ae1905

koalaroo said:


> Who needs either when you can have ENTJs?


I'd rather have a root canal. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. 

I've seen the competition on-line only. Irl, I get along fine with INTJs: they worship me, and I tolerate them. It's a win-win.


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## BigApplePi

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> That is technically inaccurate. Ti is a judging fiction and Ni is a perceiving function. For INTJs there is actually no end, they keep their ears open for new information to synthesize and create an abstract impression upon. Te is only secondary, it's like testing the hypothesis, the point is the theory not the experiment, the experiment is just to prove that the theory is true.
> INTPs have an "end". But neither type is really obvious in this because of introversion. The J/P dichotomy with introverts blurs things up. INTPs want to create their own little logical framework that they alter through their lives. They come off as unbiased because they judge for themselves, they don't impose on anyway. All discipline is self-discipline, INTPs don't control their environment, they control themselves. As they get older, they become increasingly close minded for a lack of a better work or I should say "more sure of themselves" then they start to stick with it. An example often cited is when Einstein refuses to accept quantum mechanics because "god doesn't play dice". In MBTI descriptions it usually says something like "INTPs are open minded and flexible, until one of their principles is violated resulting in them arguing tirelessly." That's an important note, very important as this differentiates INTPs as judging dominant types rather than similar ENTPs who really see no "end" more like an INTJ.


Holy moly. Serious trouble. That turns my world upsidedown, lol. I'm going to have to think about what is going on here. Are you going to tell me this LINK is all wrong?


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## Grandmaster Yoda

BigApplePi said:


> Holy moly. Serious trouble. That turns my world upsidedown, lol. I'm going to have to think about what is going on here. Are you going to tell me this LINK is all wrong?


Well in my understanding of the system. (Which is pretty much pointless to have because no one says how functions develop anywhere, they just say they do and over time)
I would think let's say that you are born. (Many type articles suggest that people's types are inborn or start to differentiate pretty early)
I'll try to explain it both ways as I would understand it. 
Now at the beginning let's just say, you have no functions developed, you're basically a mass of cognitive function cloudiness. MBTI articles (about development of INTP children for example) would say as early as I think 3-5 (fact check?) it will be kinda be obvious what your type is. So I interpret this to me (in this path) that the dominant function must have somehow developed during this early stage. So at age 5 we can say that you are a Ti type because your Ti is already showing prominence over the others. (That rules out being an Ni dom, etc.) so that means you're type is certainly either ISTP or INTP at this point. So there is not much of a perceiving function in second place, what that means is that you will be extremely self disciplined you know introverted judging, control yourself yeah and maybe a little anti-authoritarian or rebellious as that is what the Ti function often entails. So at a young age you basically behave like a J type, except it's basically mastering your own goals and having firm conclusions rather than looking outside for conclusions and judgement. Then (in this path/understanding) your next function will pop up, Ne or Se because those are the only two that a Ti dom could have. Then you start acting a lot more like a P type, you become uncertain, exploratory and curious. This cycle doesn't really end until much later when you develop your Ni/Si (which are two introverted P functions that kinda "narrow things down") and finally Fe (which closes the J loop) meaning that you will never really certain (in the external extroverted sense) until you accept the importance of Fe values and develop that inferior function. That's when you become Einstein and life is great, you're not changing your opinions, maybe you're more close minded because you think you got it, you understand everything that you've researched.
The other path is the inborn path. Which is essentially the same but just states that you are an INTP at birth. Your Ti develops, it's uncertain if you are Se or Ne at the young stage, but technically it is. Like determinism, you can't predict the future but it will end up in one way. So you will have Ne but it's not developed yet and it's hard to know at that stage. So that's really the only difference between those understandings as I understand them. 
IxxP starts off close minds (Ti/J), goes through developing two P functions (which leads to uncertainty, unbiased and the appearance of great open mindedness) then they close it off with more judging (Fe) in which they fulfill the prophecy and become more certain. 
But even there, it is a problem. Ti is still the dominant function so those developing P functions will never take over. So an INTP with developed Ne won't necessarily be an exactly like an ENTP like their Ti just disappeared. No it's still there, it's just kind of "competing" with new information when it wants closure. So that's my understanding.


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## 1yesman9

Aquamarine said:


> No problem. Though I guess you are an INTP, especially how you find Ni illogical as I used to, due to misunderstanding it. Take functions as tools, which are neutral on their own. It's just our perception of how some people use the tools that seem illogical, so it's really how the person uses the function that registers as illogical with our perception.


One would assume he meant "illogical" with reference to Jung, that T/F functions are rational, while S/N functions are irrational?


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## poteau

1yesman9 said:


> One would assume he meant "illogical" with reference to Jung, that T/F functions are rational, while S/N functions are irrational?


Welll, I had this particular moment in mind when I wrote that: I took a calculus class a while ago and when the professor just explained the concept of definite integral, I thought, "Oh, I see. So, integral is basically the inverse of differentiation!" Of course, the professor chose the exact moment to start ranting about stupid economics majors, who can do whatever nasty calculations she throws at their way but can't understand that DEFINITE INTEGRAL IS NOT THE INVERSE OF DIFFERENTIATION!!! And then she proceeded to show us step by step why I am the worst idiot in the world for entertaining the stupid thought even for a moment overlooking the obvious difference in exact definition, which was obvious when she pointed out like that but I failed to notice, shredding what confidence I had in math in pieces......

I'm still new to cognitive functions, but I guess what I had was Ni/Ne and what she showed was Ti.


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## 1yesman9

poteau said:


> Welll, I had this particular moment in mind when I wrote that: I took a calculus class a while ago and the professor just explained the concept of definite integral. I thought, "Oh, I see. So, integral is basically the inverse of differentiation!" Of course, the professor chose the exact moment to start ranting about stupid economics majors, who can do whatever nasty calculations she throws at their way but can't understand that INTEGRAL IS NOT THE INVERSE OF DIFFERENTIATION. And then she proceeded to show us step by step why I am the worst idiot in the world for entertaining the stupid thought even for a moment overlooking the difference in exact definition that was so obvious when she pointed out like that but I failed to notice, shredding what confidence I had in math in pieces......
> 
> I'm still new to cognitive functions, but I guess what I had was Ni/Ne and what she showed was Ti. Am I right?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


No, you came to an impersonal conclusion (te/ti) off of a perceived connection (ni/ne), that just happened to be wrong.

You're associating you missing information with you using a perception function? You used both a judgment and a perception function, being that you made a judgment off of a perception. It was just that either the perception was ignorant of certain information, or the judgment function was incorrect in specifying that information. What you had was a wrong answer that was made with both a j and a p function, and what she had was a right answer that was made with both a j and a p function.

The teacher isn't showing any particular function. We don't know the process in which she came to that conclusion, all we know is that she came to an impersonal conclusion (Te/Ti). That doesn't imply that she's a T type, all humans use a t function to make impersonal conclusions.

Follies like that cannot purely have something to do with a perception function, you need a judgment function to make a decision, and you can only be wrong if you make a decision. When we call a perception function irrational, it's because it does not make decisions, it just takes in information, while judgement functions make decisions subject to their particular consistent frameworks.


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## poteau

1yesman9 said:


> No, you came to an impersonal conclusion (te/ti) off of a perceived connection (ni/ne), that just happened to be wrong.
> 
> You're associating you missing information with you using a perception function? You used both a judgment and a perception function, being that you made a judgment off of a perception. It was just that either the perception was ignorant of certain information, or the judgment function was incorrect in specifying that information. What you had was a wrong answer that was made with both a j and a p function, and what she had was a right answer that was made with both a j and a p function.
> 
> The teacher isn't showing any particular function. We don't know the process in which she came to that conclusion, all we know is that she came to an impersonal conclusion (Te/Ti). That doesn't imply that she's a T type, all humans use a t function to make impersonal conclusions.
> 
> Follies like that cannot purely have something to do with a perception function, you need a judgment function to make a decision, and you can only be wrong if you make a decision. When we call a perception function irrational, it's because it does not make decisions, it just takes in information, while judgement functions make decisions subject to their particular consistent frameworks.


Hmmm, is that so? But I don't think I consciously/carefully formed that thought. It was not a judgement but an observation. It just came naturally, just as it does most of the time. Wasn't it N working unconsciously? (which I thought could mean Ni-dom) Or was it T working so naturally that I failed to notice its working at all? (Ti-dom) Or does it simply mean that whatever function(s) that led me to the conclusion was my rather developed/natural function(s)?

The reason I thought I was Ni-dom not Ti-dom was not because I missed the fine differences of info, but because I needed to consciously reach out to the unfamiliar land to understand her explanation. Actually, that was not THAT challenging, but some proofs in mathematics, which relies heavily on the concise definition and somewhat mechanical reasoning, are somewhat... unnatural to me. I can follow it, but those processes are something simply not in my nature. And that happens almost exclusively in Math or some facets of Physics/Economics. Actually, that's the reason why I study those subjects: it's doable, but challenging. In most other subjects, even when I don't get it the first time, I just look for another version of explanation or other examples. It rarely requires that much of conscious/bit uncomfortable effort that Math askes me to do. So, I assumed probably the reason I find those subjects challenging must be in the nature of those subjects: Ti.

Though, @Aquamarine said Math also requires Si, so it might be that. Or, it is also possible that Ti is simply not strong enough and needs more training even though being pretty high up in my naturally inclined stack.

ps. Back to the original topic, I thought Ni to be irrational because it seems to come to conclusions without Ti's effort. Of course perceiving functions can't be rational, they are neutral, but they are irrational than Ti/Te.


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## poteau

BigApplePi said:


> @*Aquamarine* and @*poteau*.
> Polarization. More thoughts. Take the inside and outside world. One can naturally look at the outside world and see logic and order (Te) and one forms an opinion (Ni). But if one's outside experience is quite limited one can't get very far. That leaves one with Ti to puzzle about things. Out goes the Ni, rejected because it doesn't work. One goes back to the outside world this time not to form judgments about it but to get a feeling for it (Ne) and take it in instead.


I agree on the basic concept of polarization, but I thought Te was supposed to be a judging function?


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## Aquamarine

1yesman9 said:


> One would assume he meant "illogical" with reference to Jung, that T/F functions are rational, while S/N functions are irrational?


Oh, I see. I don't quite understand why certain functions are "rational" or "irrational", when I see them more as neutral tools which can be used in an irrational way or rational way, depending on the individual?


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## Aquamarine

poteau said:


> Hmmm, is that so? But I don't think I consciously/carefully formed that thought. It was not a judgement but an observation. It just came naturally, just as it does most of the time. Wasn't it N working unconsciously? (which I thought could mean Ni-dom) Or was it T working so naturally that I failed to notice its working at all? (Ti-dom) Or does it simply mean that whatever function(s) that led me to the conclusion was my rather developed/natural function(s)?
> 
> The reason I thought I was Ni-dom not Ti-dom was not because I missed the fine differences of info, but because I needed to consciously reach out to the unfamiliar land to understand her explanation. Actually, that was not THAT challenging, but some proofs in mathematics, which relies heavily on the concise definition and somewhat mechanical reasoning, are somewhat... unnatural to me. I can follow it, but those processes are something simply not in my nature. And that happens almost exclusively in Math or some facets of Physics/Economics. Actually, that's the reason why I study those subjects: it's doable, but challenging. In most other subjects, even when I don't get it the first time, I just look for another version of explanation or other examples. It rarely requires that much of conscious/bit uncomfortable effort that Math askes me to do. So, I assumed probably the reason I find those subjects challenging must be in the nature of those subjects: Ti.
> 
> Though, @_Aquamarine_ said Math also requires Si, so it might be that. Or, it is also possible that Ti is simply not strong enough and needs more training even though being pretty high up in my naturally inclined stack.
> 
> ps. Back to the original topic, I thought Ni to be irrational because it seems to come to conclusions without Ti's effort. Of course perceiving functions can't be rational, they are neutral, but they are irrational than Ti/Te.


Ti is required to understand the concepts and application of formulas, whereas Si is needed to remember and recall formulas. At lesst, that's my understanding.


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## ninjahitsawall

Aquamarine said:


> Hmm, as far as I know, INTPs aren't usually keen on competition, INTJs are to a limited degree, and the ENTJs are the most focused on it. Then again, every person is different, so maybe you've a competitive streak, though you sound more like you just want to be the best version of yourself, which can be a universal desire throughout all MBTI types.


As an INTJ I can tell you I can come off as very competitive at times, or trying to "one-up" others, but really I am just trying to develop expertise at a skill. I don't really compete with people; I compete with my previous performances on some skill. If I recognize that I'm trying to compete for the sake of beating someone else, I don't perform as well and lose most of my motivation. 

If I don't see the value in something (usually a mundane task, like boiling an egg) I usually can't be bothered to see it as a competitive activity. Haha, kinda like that "what is a real sport?" debate.


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## poteau

Aquamarine said:


> Ti is required to understand the concepts and application of formulas, whereas Si is needed to remember and recall formulas. At lesst, that's my understanding.


Oh, just a moment ago, I realized that skills/abilities don't really matter. Preference is what matters. So, in order to understand math, what you need is Thinking, as in general noun thinking, not Ti. Of course if you are to become good at math, then you would need to build your own knowledge system, which is using Thinking introverted way.

What happened in that particular occasion was simply my iNtuitive perception of inverse relationship was not valid, and I was forced to Think. And I guess what felt unnatural about Math was just Math being Math, i.e. difficult! I mean, Math is the subject that demands lots of Thinking, more so than any other subject.

Oh, this puts everything in perspective. How stupid I was to be envious of INTPness or INTJness when it was preference/predisposition not ability! So, it basically comes down to this: Would you rather first and foremost think alone to perfectly understand and build your system of knowledge, and then let out ideas/intuitions[INTP]; or would you rather perceive your environment/situation quietly in the background and then let out solutions in objective terms[INTJ]?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## BigApplePi

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> That is technically inaccurate. Ti is a judging fiction and Ni is a perceiving function. For INTJs there is actually no end, they keep their ears open for new information to synthesize and create an abstract impression upon. Te is only secondary, it's like testing the hypothesis, the point is the theory not the experiment, the experiment is just to prove that the theory is true.
> INTPs have an "end". But neither type is really obvious in this because of introversion. The J/P dichotomy with introverts blurs things up. INTPs want to create their own little logical framework that they alter through their lives. They come off as unbiased because they judge for themselves, they don't impose on anyway. All discipline is self-discipline, INTPs don't control their environment, they control themselves. As they get older, they become increasingly close minded for a lack of a better work or I should say "more sure of themselves" then they start to stick with it. An example often cited is when Einstein refuses to accept quantum mechanics because "god doesn't play dice". In MBTI descriptions it usually says something like "INTPs are open minded and flexible, until one of their principles is violated resulting in them arguing tirelessly." That's an important note, very important as this differentiates INTPs as judging dominant types rather than similar ENTPs who really see no "end" more like an INTJ.


Am getting confused about this "close and open mindedness" G. Yoda. Also humbled as as much as I like to address the meanings of cognitive functions so many others are much more familiar with them than I. I've tried to match up these T and F judging functions with their logic but I fail to see how that could necessitate finality. While it is true that a Ti thinker could harden their theories and take on close mindedness I don't see why that has to be. Same with an Ni thinker who uses Te. Neither has to close up. Sure Fe could put pressure to close up but it doesn't have to. I, for one, use Fe to solicit criticism. I don't want to be closed which is a little different from saying, "Look at my closed theory and critique it."

I don't know why Einstein said that about quantum mechanics unless he was looking for causes which appeared not to be there. (By that I mean randomness appears not to have causes.) After all, didn't Einstein believe in and contribute to QM? My latest thought about randomness in QM is not that behavior is uncaused but that it is a symptom of the wave behavior of particles. Wave behavior appears random but isn't. Sorry. Haven't read the Einstein-Bohr debate thing yet. I suspect the Einstein ("God does not play dice") thing is our misinterpretation of his meaning.

In your longer message following this one, my response is, yes one tries to identify cognitive functions. We judge and we perceive, but all those functions change over time and though there are tendencies, they need not harden. Life presents a constant battle between looking for truth, choosing it, taking in new information and discarding the old, settling down and stirring up ... opening and closing. What we do is up to us.


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## BigApplePi

poteau said:


> I agree on the basic concept of polarization, but I thought Te was supposed to be a judging function?


There is the issue of the meaning of words. As simply as I can state it, I see T and F functions as judging because they are dynamic, go through a process and choose. N and S functions are immediate, that is not dynamic. Yet all of them can change. That is, judgments can change and so can perceptions. Not sure if everyone agrees with this or do we have to go further into meanings or am I failing to follow commonly accepted meanings?


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## koalaroo

ENTJ is clearly > INTP or INTJ.


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## Judson Joist

I'm sticking with the "playful competition" angle. Who's the most Maniacal Mastermind of Didactic Do0m?
roud:


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## Aquamarine

koalaroo said:


> ENTJ is clearly > INTP or INTJ.


Competitive much?


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## Vayne

koalaroo said:


> ENTJ is clearly < INTP or INTJ.


Indeed.


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## Vayne

Well, The P and J in me is also on a competition. Except, my P prevail as winner most of the time.


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## koalaroo

Aquamarine said:


> Competitive much?


Not competitive. Just factual.


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## Grandmaster Yoda

koalaroo said:


> ENTJ is clearly > INTP or INTJ.


False


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## Grandmaster Yoda

BigApplePi said:


> Am getting confused about this "close and open mindedness" G. Yoda. Also humbled as as much as I like to address the meanings of cognitive functions so many others are much more familiar with them than I. I've tried to match up these T and F judging functions with their logic but I fail to see how that could necessitate finality. While it is true that a Ti thinker could harden their theories and take on close mindedness I don't see why that has to be. Same with an Ni thinker who uses Te. Neither has to close up. Sure Fe could put pressure to close up but it doesn't have to. I, for one, use Fe to solicit criticism. I don't want to be closed which is a little different from saying, "Look at my closed theory and critique it."
> 
> I don't know why Einstein said that about quantum mechanics unless he was looking for causes which appeared not to be there. (By that I mean randomness appears not to have causes.) After all, didn't Einstein believe in and contribute to QM? My latest thought about randomness in QM is not that behavior is uncaused but that it is a symptom of the wave behavior of particles. Wave behavior appears random but isn't. Sorry. Haven't read the Einstein-Bohr debate thing yet. I suspect the Einstein ("God does not play dice") thing is our misinterpretation of his meaning.
> 
> In your longer message following this one, my response is, yes one tries to identify cognitive functions. We judge and we perceive, but all those functions change over time and though there are tendencies, they need not harden. Life presents a constant battle between looking for truth, choosing it, taking in new information and discarding the old, settling down and stirring up ... opening and closing. What we do is up to us.


By close up, it's basically taking the idea of "J behavior" like setting schedules and structuring things. I guess not necessarily closed mindedness. I really don't know what Einstein was saying either, as of yet. But if it was him being against randomness, it makes some sense in this context. Because he believed the universe had to make sense, determinism or causality. But I don't really see how that doesn't exist in reality according to different intrpretations it's considered random or not random. So I don't know.
But yeah when I say close up, I don't literally mean close up as much as having structure. Like Ti is trying to have "logical structure", it doesn't really invalidate change like I implied. It means you have to go through a person like a watchmen and a gate. You have to rationally show someone something to change their mind as opposed to Ne which is doesn't really hold onto thoughts or makes judgments, it just explores new ones. They work hand in hand. I'm not the best with functions either though, I just make loose comparisons which leaves them up in the air.


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## koalaroo

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> False


Nope. 100% truth.


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## Aquamarine

koalaroo said:


> Not competitive. Just factual.


Facts needs evidence or it's just an opinion.


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## koalaroo

Aquamarine said:


> Facts needs evidence or it's just an opinion.


Society values extroverts more than introverts. There's your fact.


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## Grandmaster Yoda

koalaroo said:


> Nope. 100% truth.


Logic dictates INTPs are superior to all other types as we are the chosen people.


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## BigApplePi

koalaroo said:


> Society values extroverts more than introverts. There's your fact.


Let's break down society into introverts and extroverts. Introverts value introversion more than extroversion. Extroverts value extroversion more than introversion. There's my opinion.


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## koalaroo

BigApplePi said:


> Let's break down society into introverts and extroverts. Introverts value introversion more than extroversion. Extroverts value extroversion more than introversion. There's my opinion.


Now, now. You're discounting ambiverts.


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## sjack

I love how this has just degenerated to facetious shit slinging the thread.

Oh wait...

That's what this has always been.


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## BigApplePi

koalaroo said:


> Now, now. You're discounting ambiverts.


I'm also discounting omniverts, converts and preverts. Ambiverts do deserve a place. What do you say to one percent?


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## ElizabethKay07

These two types are surprised by one another's ability to stay unoffended and like to test one another on this matter. To be able to play around and even get a little nasty with the quips they exchange is fun for these two types. The dynamics between two INTJ's would probably get too cut-throat to be fun for them and one would call the other ignorant and would draw his sword and kill the other lol. For two INTP's, they may try to have this banter/playful competition at first, but they would likely turn the situation into a friendly conversation and it would be more intellectually stimulating (and would probably become too agreeable to compete or disagree and walk away without another word (most of us are too lazy to be confrontational) as opposed to the excitement that an INTP vs INTJ dynamic could provide.


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## ElizabethKay07

These two types are surprised by one another's ability to stay unoffended and like to test one another on this matter. To be able to play around and even get a little nasty with the quips they exchange is fun for these two types. The dynamics between two INTJ's would probably get too cut-throat to be fun for them and one would call the other ignorant and would draw his sword and kill the other lol. For two INTP's, they may try to have this banter/playful competition at first, but they would likely turn the situation into a friendly conversation and it would be more intellectually stimulating (and would probably become too agreeable to compete or disagree and walk away without another word (most of us are too lazy to be confrontational) as opposed to the excitement that an INTP vs INTJ dynamic could provide.


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## Crimplene for men

Me and my INTJ boyfriend constantly rip the piss out of each other. he did the old 'pull my finger' gag on me (for our second date). When I laughed, he said he knew I was the one!


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## Crimplene for men

INTJs might be tidier and better organised than INTPs?


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## BigApplePi

Empecinado said:


> I thought this thread was about getting the most chicks. WTF.


You prefer quantity over quality?


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## Empecinado

BigApplePi said:


> You prefer quantity over quality?


It was a joke.


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## BigApplePi

Empecinado said:


> It was a joke.


Mine was a joke too. It just wasn't as funny as yours. BTW I can loan you one of my chicks thereby increasing your quantity and improving my quality. It's win-win.:laughing:


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## DaveK

Probably allows for entertaining sparring within circumstances that suit both types.


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## MizuPsi

Because they won't admit that we are better than them.


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## BigApplePi

MizuPsi said:


> Because they won't admit that we [INTPs] are better than them.


If that is true, how are they better than we are?


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## koalaroo

[No message]


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## Yeezus

koalaroo said:


> Society values extroverts more than introverts. There's your fact.


Society also values Britney Spears and Kim Kardashian more than Radiohead and Einstein. Society is stupid.


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## koalaroo

Yeezus said:


> Society also values Britney Spears and Kim Kardashian more than Radiohead and Einstein. Society is stupid.


Don't be jelly that you aren't valued.


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## poteau

koalaroo said:


> Society values extroverts more than introverts. There's your fact.


Nope, only your society does. Mine values introverts more!


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