# Dual or Semi-Dual... can semi-duality be just as good?



## Kintsugi

Kanerou said:


> Si in socionics is not Si in MBTI or JCF. Introverted Sensation in socionics, also known as Experiential Sensation, focuses on the effect that one's environment has on their (and others') physical state, and it seeks to bring that physical state to a sort of comfortable balance. This is why Si-ego types are known as Caregivers; regulating and adjusting their and others' physical states comes quite naturally to them.


Yeah, I find it hard relating to this. I was definitely brought up by parents who would fit this description; I found it to be a little suffocating at times and bounced between rebelling against it and conforming (this is probably due to being a Type 6 though.)

Can you explain Se-ego types?


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## Kanerou

KookyTookie said:


> Yeah, I find it hard relating to this. I was definitely brought up by parents who would fit this description; I found it to be a little suffocating at times and bounced between rebelling against it and conforming (this is probably due to being a Type 6 though.)
> 
> Can you explain Se-ego types?


In contrast to Si, Se looks to make an impact on its environment. It comfortably acts on other things or people in order to achieve its goals. (Se types are sometimes labeled as aggressive; I prefer the term "assertive", as it's more neutral and doesn't bring to mind the image of a bully.) The stereotypical shounen protagonist (Luffy, Naruto, Yuusuke Urameshi, Kamina, Natsu Dragnil, Son Goku from Dragonball, arguably Son Goku from Saiyuki) is Se-base; a couple of non-protagonist examples would be Kotaro, Nagi Springfield, and Asuka from Negima. Se-egos are typically said to know how much force or influence will be required to "move" something or someone, and it doesn't necessarily have to manifest as blatantly pushy or forceful behavior; I recall an SEE saying that if you have to actually use force to achieve your goals, you're doing it wrong. Power, status, influence, and territory are also common Se themes.


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## Kanerou

In addition, Se-bases tend to be fairly impulsive, not always cognizant of the consequences of their actions. This is where Ni-bases can help them out. Se-creatives (ESI and LSI) tend to be less... messy about it. To quote the WS Wiki:



> In   creative types (LSI and ESI), however, the element is expressed more distinctly in the guise of self-control and rigid, inflexible determination. In contrast to   dominants, who may be very flexible and capricious in their sense of adopted principles (instead, taking a stand and "fighting" for the very experience of fighting),   creatives tend to subordinate their volitionally uncompromising nature to the principles of their existing lifestyle (  or  ).


Ichigo Kurosaki of Bleach is a good example of an Se-creative (I've heard LSI, but I think ESI, personally). Light Yagami is another (LSI).


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## Entropic

KookyTookie said:


> I wish I did favor Se-Ni, but, alas, I'm fairly convinced I am Ne-Si. However, having said that, I am not too well versed in Socionics, perhaps this is something I can look into further.
> 
> I would say I prefer 'creating' many possibilities, like Ne. I guess I do look backwards, but I have always linked that to Si, connecting ideas to past experience (from a more subjective perspective).


Si and Ni both look backwards but the question is how they look backwards. Si links to known sense impressions, Ni links to known intuitive models and data. Another way I think I'm fairly sure that you're an Ni type is your signature actually. I fail to see why an Si-Ne type would enjoy that kind of signature. It's very Ni-esque in its presentation.

If you want to get an idea how Ne operates in an ENFP, you should speak to @Maybe. She's what I'd consider prototypal. 

@Kanerou As for Ichigo and Light... I have to disagree on those typings. I think Ichigo is a good example of an EII as he uses Ne a lot to relate to people around him - he can't even be angry at Aizen because Aizen was simply lonely! He also protected Grimmjow from Nnoitra despite Grimmjow clearing showing intent to kill both him and Orihime and then some. Also notice how he's a positivist. He always wants to see the good in people and he's quick to forgive. Light is most likely Ni ego, not Se ego. I think if anything Death Note as a story is a good example of Se hidden agenda. I'd vote LIE for Light.


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## Kanerou

LeaT said:


> @_Kanerou_ As for Ichigo and Light... I have to disagree on those typings. I think Ichigo is a good example of an EII (he uses Ne a lot to relate to people around him - he can't even be angry at Aizen because Aizen was simply lonely!) and also notice how he's a positivist. He always wants to see the good in people and he's quick to forgive. Light is most likely Ni ego, not Se ego. I think if anything Death Note as a story is a good example of Se hidden agenda. I'd vote LIE for Light.


( ) I think we'll have to agree to disagree. It's been too long since I've read Bleach for me to formulate an argument.


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## Entropic

Kanerou said:


> ( ) I think we'll have to agree to disagree. It's been too long since I've read Bleach for me to formulate an argument.


Fair enough. I think his initial presentation was more in line of Se but moved towards Ne over time as his character developed. 

If you're looking for a super-obvious ESI in anime, then Hei from Darker Than Black would be a better example than Ichigo. 






I think what's important to understand about Hei in particular is how he's so clearly in tune with Se - he's very much in tune with his surroundings. He's very good at reading what's going on around him and react to this and use his environment to his advantange, planning ahead with Ni and Te in a way you don't see Ichigo do at all when he fights. Ichigo relies on Si experience - he does what has worked in the past which is repeating the exact same patterns over and over. He's not much for improvisation utilizing the environment to his advantange. 

Or even better, this video I uploaded of Nero beating up Dante in a fit of FiSe enneatype 8 (and a touch of CP6) rage:


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## Kintsugi

LeaT said:


> Si and Ni both look backwards but the question is how they look backwards. Si links to known sense impressions, Ni links to known intuitive models and data. Another way I think I'm fairly sure that you're an Ni type is your signature actually. I fail to see why an Si-Ne type would enjoy that kind of signature. It's very Ni-esque in its presentation.


What about Se and Ne? 

How is my signature Ni-esque? My SO is an Ni-dom, could it be that I am strongly influenced by this?


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## Entropic

KookyTookie said:


> What about Se and Ne?


Se and Ne both see what's present but Se sees the concrete as is. A vase is a vase. Ne sees the many uses of the vase. I can't emulate Ne in a conscious way so I won't try.


> How is my signature Ni-esque? My SO is an Ni-dom, could it be that I am strongly influenced by this?


Your signature is Ni-esque because it seems to seek meaning in things, in what is present. 

And your SO influencing you is unlikely. We do not seem to adapt cognition based on people around us. If anything, we tend to seek those who share our cognition for easier communication. I primarily hang out with Fi-Te types IRL and on PerC, for example, and I regularly speak to other ILIs I'm good friends with.


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## Kintsugi

LeaT said:


> Se and Ne both see what's present but Se sees the concrete as is. A vase is a vase. Ne sees the many uses of the vase. I can't emulate Ne in a conscious way so I won't try.
> Your signature is Ni-esque because it seems to seek meaning in things, in what is present.


Hmm, this is tough. I have no idea...

I see a vase as just a vase, but when I see a person, I see multiple possibilities. 
Okay, first of all, I initially chose my signature because I like the colours. :laughing::crazy: It also reminds me of the feeling I get when I look up at the night sky; reminding me why it's important to, let go, keep an open mind, and embrace the present moment. (Basically, this: Satori - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)




> And your SO influencing you is unlikely. We do not seem to adapt cognition based on people around us. If anything, we tend to seek those who share our cognition for easier communication. I primarily hang out with Fi-Te types IRL and on PerC, for example, and I regularly speak to other ILIs I'm good friends with


Well, yeah. I definitely prefer hanging out with Fi-Te types. I'm more confused about perception though; I think I am a perceiving dominant as opposed to judging....


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## Entropic

KookyTookie said:


> Hmm, this is tough. I have no idea...
> 
> I see a vase as just a vase, but when I see a person, I see multiple possibilities.


See, I mistyped as EII too because I always see possibilities. Not just people but everything. I just didn't realize it was Ni, not Ne. I knew I was introverted, it was perhaps the only thing I really knew about my cognition, and I knew I favored intuition and I knew I favored Fi-Te. The logical conclusion was that EII must fit since they are introverted, favor Fi-Te and have intuition as a part of their ego. 

It made sense at the time but it was just because I understood myself and the system poorly, especially Ne and Ni. Seeing possibilities in people could be related to many reasons and it's hard to single out one cause wthout knowing the exact process and what kinds of possibilities you see.


> Okay, first of all, I initially chose my signature because I like the colours. :laughing::crazy: It also reminds me of the feeling I get when I look up at the night sky; reminding me why it's important to, let go, keep an open mind, and embrace the present moment. (Basically, this: Satori - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)


Seems Fi first of all as a perspective. The description of satori seems very Ni, seeing the essence of things. Ni likes to see the essence, Si perhaps in a sensory way, Ne not so much. It doesn't care about the core of things, it wants to explore and look outside.


> Well, yeah. I definitely prefer hanging out with Fi-Te types. I'm more confused about perception though; I think I am a perceiving dominant as opposed to judging....


If you are a perceiving dominant I think Se is more likely as your base but I don't think you are Se base. You seem like a negativist to me and if Se-Ni then ESI is the only option that makes sense. I can't see delta, especially not IEE which is also negativist. I'm good friends with an IEE and you just don't vibe the same at all cognitively. Ne is so different in IEEs than Se in SEEs and ESIs.


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## Cantarella

Do y'all know who your semi-duals are? Some LII is up in here talking about SEIs and LeaT is talking about Ne or some shit. Maybe I need to re-read this when I'm sober.


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## Entropic

Cantarella said:


> Do y'all know who your semi-duals are? Some LII is up in here talking about SEIs and LeaT is talking about Ne or some shit. Maybe I need to re-read this when I'm sober.


Yes because I'm trying to type people. I know my semi-dual is SLE so don't worry. It helps being sober.


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## Cantarella

LeaT said:


> Yes because I'm trying to type people. I know my semi-dual is SLE so don't worry. It helps being sober.


Yay, just checking! Carry on.


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## Sixty Nein

Sobriety is merely shifting your drunkenness towards consciousness. As one can never avoid the hedonistic elixir of todays world.


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## Cantarella

St Vual said:


> Sobriety is merely shifting your drunkenness towards consciousness. As one can never avoid the hedonistic elixir of todays world.


Word, I'm with this guy. Now more wine plz.


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## Kintsugi

LeaT said:


> See, I mistyped as EII too because I always see possibilities. Not just people but everything. I just didn't realize it was Ni, not Ne. I knew I was introverted, it was perhaps the only thing I really knew about my cognition, and I knew I favored intuition and I knew I favored Fi-Te. The logical conclusion was that EII must fit since they are introverted, favor Fi-Te and have intuition as a part of their ego.
> 
> It made sense at the time but it was just because I understood myself and the system poorly, especially Ne and Ni. Seeing possibilities in people could be related to many reasons and it's hard to single out one cause wthout knowing the exact process and what kinds of possibilities you see.


I've never really considered myself an introvert. My sister (SLI) and SO (ILI) are introverted, compared to them am I definitely more extroverted. Having said this, I don't feel confident in labeling myself 'extrovert' either; if anything, I would described myself as an ambivert. In terms of Jungian cognitive functions, I have always related most to the Extroverted Intuitive type (and MBTI, ENFP). I will take another look at the Extroverted Sensation type in a little more detail. Perhaps what I need to do is study each system separately instead of trying to combine them all. Confusing. 

The possibilities I see are really related mostly to people and myself (introspection, possibilities, how things relate to me and my values, etc). For example; I have huge difficulties staying focused during conversations; my mind is forever running off in different directions, trying to work out the 'hidden meaning' behind what is being said. I would say that I am a much better at talking than listening, I have a tendency to blurt out what I'm thinking and talk over people (even though I am trying to work on that :mellow. My mind is a crazy place to be; I find typing/writing down my thoughts can be difficult, my fingers simply don't work at a speed that matches the pace of my thought processes! Also, I can't stand small-talk, I find it so very frustratingly boring. I think I may also have ADD (diagnosed), this could be the reason why I have huge problems with concentration. In terms of myself, I am constantly relating things back to me, how I feel about things, what can I learn from it, how can it help me develop, etc. I guess I'm a little self-absorbed. :tongue:

The one thing I am sure of is that I definitely favor Fi/Te. I often butt-heads with Ti/Fe types, I find debating with them very frustrating.



> Seems Fi first of all as a perspective. The description of satori seems very Ni, seeing the essence of things. Ni likes to see the essence, Si perhaps in a sensory way, Ne not so much. It doesn't care about the core of things, it wants to explore and look outside.


I do relate to wanting to see the essence of things; but I also like exploring outside of the 'box' and considering multiple possibilities. My SO is convinced that I am an Ne-type. However, he has not studied Socionics, so he could not comment on that. Could it be possible that I am an Se-type in one system and an Ne-type in another?




> If you are a perceiving dominant I think Se is more likely as your base but I don't think you are Se base. You seem like a negativist to me and if Se-Ni then ESI is the only option that makes sense. I can't see delta, especially not IEE which is also negativist. I'm good friends with an IEE and you just don't vibe the same at all cognitively. Ne is so different in IEEs than Se in SEEs and ESIs.


Okay, so I had to look up what 'negativist' meant in relation to Socionics. 

I relate more to the negativist, as opposed to the positivist descriptions. However, I wonder if this might have more to do with my core Enneagram type (Type 6). I am a rather anxious person and tend to see what could go wrong before seeing the positives. 

I had a quick look at both Delta and Gamma; I think I will need to spend some more time introspecting because I did sort-of relate to both. I feel like I am a mix of the two.


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## Thalassa

I've fallen madly in love with my "Relations of Illusion" (you think the person is so like you...but then they aren't...like ISFP and ESFJ would be in MBTI (F/S/N/T)...or ESFp and ESFj would be in Socionics; also with my "Mirror" (I'm Socionics SEE-Fi, this man is ESI-Fi)...mirrors and you "gel" in kind of an incredible way...especially when you share interests (with us it was an apparent shared love of music, the 80s, psychology, type theory, animal rights, the environment, and health/fitness/nutrition ...in a looser sense, we disagreed on many points of what made the best health/fitness/nutrition, but discussed it at long length)...but they are weak where you are strong, and strong where you are weak, and you're almost so similar but not quite that you make each other feel inferior and piss each other off. Sounds about right.

I can't say I've ever loved my dual. I want to forget most of my "duals" exist, and I saw one INTp explain on another forum that he thinks that "duals" are NOT necessarily our perfect soul or sexual mates, but are actually often objects of admiration or challenge for us (and I admire him for saying this, despite my personal dislike of him, and so we are probably duals, we share very similar weaknesses, despite our differences in ethics...ugh, yes, it's true...and this is all really per Jung).


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## Kintsugi

fourtines said:


> I can't say I've ever loved my dual. I want to forget most of my "duals" exist, and I saw one INTp explain on another forum that he thinks that "duals" are NOT necessarily our perfect soul or sexual mates, but are actually often objects of admiration or challenge for us (and I admire him for saying this, despite my personal dislike of him, and so we are probably duals, we share very similar weaknesses, despite our differences in ethics...ugh, yes, it's true...and this is all really per Jung).


My SO is an INTp and he has said something similar about a close friendship with a "dual." Interestingly, he really admires her and feels that he can learn a lot from her, but there is no sexual/romantic attraction there.


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## Thalassa

KookyTookie said:


> My SO is an INTp and he has said something similar about a close friendship with a "dual." Interestingly, he really admires her and feels that he can learn a lot from her, but there is no sexual/romantic attraction there.


I actually feel guilty sometimes (secretly, I'm just admitting it publicly now! lucky you!) about my hatred toward my dual, because this person actually bought me dinner once, he was much less monstrous in person...but I only met him the one time and ethically he's absolutely dreadful, my Fi can't stand the things he stands for...he can be so horrible, it makes me think of terrible things like kitten murders and Ayn Rand. This man names himself after Nietzsche.

No one over 21-22 should do that. Nietzsche was a misogynistic madman. If you're carrying that shit too closely over 25, I'm only left to presume there's something deeply wrong with you.


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## Entropic

KookyTookie said:


> I've never really considered myself an introvert. My sister (SLI) and SO (ILI) are introverted, compared to them am I definitely more extroverted. Having said this, I don't feel confident in labeling myself 'extrovert' either; if anything, I would described myself as an ambivert. In terms of Jungian cognitive functions, I have always related most to the Extroverted Intuitive type (and MBTI, ENFP). I will take another look at the Extroverted Sensation type in a little more detail. Perhaps what I need to do is study each system separately instead of trying to combine them all. Confusing.


There's a difference being a cognitive introvert and being a social introvert. They don't always necessarily correlate. To be a cognitive introvert means as Jung described it, being attuned to archetypal content a priori. In other words, it means you pay more attention to what's going on inside yourself than what you are paying attention to things outside yourself. Introverts see themselves as subjects in an objective world, extroverts objects an in objective world.


> The possibilities I see are really related mostly to people and myself (introspection, possibilities, how things relate to me and my values, etc). For example; I have huge difficulties staying focused during conversations; my mind is forever running off in different directions, trying to work out the 'hidden meaning' behind what is being said. I would say that I am a much better at talking than listening, I have a tendency to blurt out what I'm thinking and talk over people (even though I am trying to work on that :mellow. My mind is a crazy place to be; I find typing/writing down my thoughts can be difficult, my fingers simply don't work at a speed that matches the pace of my thought processes! Also, I can't stand small-talk, I find it so very frustratingly boring. I think I may also have ADD (diagnosed), this could be the reason why I have huge problems with concentration. In terms of myself, I am constantly relating things back to me, how I feel about things, what can I learn from it, how can it help me develop, etc. I guess I'm a little self-absorbed. :tongue:


Figuring out hidden meanings could perhaps be more indicative of Ni than Ne in my opinion. I think Ne and Fi would be more in generating possibilities or scenarios of how to relate to other people. The rest just seems like enneagram head-type stuff.


> The one thing I am sure of is that I definitely favor Fi/Te. I often butt-heads with Ti/Fe types, I find debating with them very frustrating.


Agreed.


> I do relate to wanting to see the essence of things; but I also like exploring outside of the 'box' and considering multiple possibilities. My SO is convinced that I am an Ne-type. However, he has not studied Socionics, so he could not comment on that. Could it be possible that I am an Se-type in one system and an Ne-type in another?


Depends what multiple possibilities mean. And no offense to your SO, but I think most people's typing skills suck, including those on this forum. Most people don't understand what makes Ne and Ni different. I didn't either until recently when I realized I was an Ni over an Ne type, for example.


> Okay, so I had to look up what 'negativist' meant in relation to Socionics.
> 
> I relate more to the negativist, as opposed to the positivist descriptions. However, I wonder if this might have more to do with my core Enneagram type (Type 6). I am a rather anxious person and tend to see what could go wrong before seeing the positives.


A better way to show you what negativism mean, because I recently discussed this with FreeBeer and cyamitide. It begins here: http://personalitycafe.com/socionics-forum/5049-socionics-type-hidden-agenda.html#post3793302



> I had a quick look at both Delta and Gamma; I think I will need to spend some more time introspecting because I did sort-of relate to both. I feel like I am a mix of the two.


Can't see delta, personally.

@fourtines I think most men would, according to today's standards, be considered misogynistic during the time Nietzsche lived. I would consider Jung slightly misogynistic for simply suggesting that male-female exist as exentialist concepts that definitely seem to tie into some cultural notion of gender essentialism. 

I don't blame him for thinking that way and I still see merit in his theory of anima/animus; I just think it needs to be updated with what we know and understand about gender and sex now compared to then.


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