# Enneagram Tritype 458 - ''The Scholar'



## DomNapoleon

Hello everybody. 
I am looking for users with this tritype combination. I am also a 458. Wanna share some past/actual experiences? This is a good space to do so. 

Phoenix-Rebirth


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## RepairmanMan Man

You might wanna talk to @adverseaffects who has been looking for others of this tritype.


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## perfectcircle

Hey 
One of my kind~!

I think I should be fair and warn you that many have suggested to me I may be a 4-7-8. But I'm not entirely sold on the idea though it is feasible. I think my online pesona may come off as more bubbly than I am in real life, my real life friends would be more likely to describe me as 'dark, analytical, heavy', what have you.


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## caffeine_buff

what kind of experiences? 

osso.. i read that 458 was the same as 548/854. is that true?


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## DomNapoleon

caffeine_buff said:


> what kind of experiences?
> 
> osso.. i read that 458 was the same as 548/854. is that true?


The tritype is the same... They are all scholars. The only thing that changes it the dominant type.


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## caffeine_buff

Phoenix_Rebirth said:


> The tritype is the same... They are all scholars. The only thing that changes it the dominant type.


ah thanks. then i'm one of you/us. so the first question stands. 

unless you're talking about nerdy indepth research about areas of interest which yes i do. only today a colleague was making round eyes at one of notes collections on humans rights, sexuality and identity politics. 

and the need to research runs _deep_ with me: 

when my ex-husband turned violent my reaction was to run to journals talking about domestic violence and try to make sense of such behaviour from them.
when i decided i was finally going to take care of my body, i started getting stronger and found an exercise routine that clicked (after years and years of failure) only once i got interested enough for my head to buy in to the whole deal.


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## Inguz

584 "reporting in" I guess.


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## Kozy

548 checking in

Anyone else utterly fascinated with weird things like conspiracies, aliens, or ghosts?


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## Kozy

Inguz, really like that avatar. Do you believe that? That we're in some sort of illusionary reality?


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## Mizmar

Kozy said:


> Anyone else utterly fascinated with weird things like conspiracies, aliens, or ghosts?


I've always had a deep love of the paranormal, though I find conspiracy theories quite dull. 

I'm not a "458". I'm way too conflict avoidant to have Eight as my gut fixation.


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## Inguz

Kozy said:


> Inguz, really like that avatar. Do you believe that? That we're in some sort of illusionary reality?


 It's piercing the veil to the astral plane/subconsciousness. In a sense I believe that this world is a projection of sorts, yes. I'm not sure of the qualities of it, but astral projections seems to have a lot of intriguing consistencies to them. I don't really think that it matters if it so just happens to be inside the deeper consciousness levels in the brain or to an actual differently plane/perception of existence.


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## marzipan01

adverseaffects said:


> Hey
> One of my kind~!
> 
> I think I should be fair and warn you that many have suggested to me I may be a 4-7-8. But I'm not entirely sold on the idea though it is feasible. I think my online pesona may come off as more bubbly than I am in real life, my real life friends would be more likely to describe me as 'dark, analytical, heavy', what have you.


I think I suggested it and I rescind that suggestion. You are definitely this tri-type, in my current opinion.
I sometimes negotiate with myself on the matter, 458 468 or 478, and I have come to the following observation: 
the 468 challenges and rebels against authority
the 478 and 458 challenge and rebel against authority accidentally. 
Knowing people of all three types in real life helps, too. 
I'm not as reactive as the 468, not as extroverted as the 478.

I tend to build internal maps of how people work based on inferences made through interactions. I was very drawn to MBTI and enneagram because they were extremely useful in uniting concepts and key characteristics I had already observed--connecting the patterns I had already observed and incorporated. 

The other thing I've noticed is that my 748 friend seems to know a lot more than I do but then I realized that he has a way of breezing through lots of information and connecting everything together but not really taking a concept any further. Like he thinks for himself and unites concepts but I'll sit on a concept mulling it over, making my internal map more proficient while he's using the one he's got and just going with it. lol. And I'm like, "Wait! There's more here under the surface, just hold on a second!" 

Anyway, so 548 fits me more. 
I really resonated with the statement that there are two modes for this tritype: vulnerable and strong. 
That's exactly right. 

I've noticed that I have a tendency to block people out and become hermetic. It's like I don't trust anything anyone says until I've come to my own conclusions and observations and I can say where that person is coming from. In this way, my education has been a kind of late bloom but when I do understand something I understand it far deeper than is necessary. lol. 

It's really quite alienating, really.


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## perfectcircle

marzipan01 said:


> I Anyway, so 548 fits me more.
> I really resonated with the statement that there are two modes for this tritype: vulnerable and strong.
> That's exactly right.
> 
> 
> 
> It's really quite alienating, really.


Resonates 100%
At the moment I'm not sure if I'm 4-5-8 or 4-8-5. It only crossed my mind 8 could be second because I was looking at the enneagram center split, shame, anger, and anxiety, and the word shame hit me like a ton of bricks and anger was close behind, anxiety or fear is much more abstact and less pressing to me. Which makes me wonder.


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## marzipan01

adverseaffects said:


> Resonates 100%
> At the moment I'm not sure if I'm 4-5-8 or 4-8-5. It only crossed my mind 8 could be second because I was looking at the enneagram center split, shame, anger, and anxiety, and the word shame hit me like a ton of bricks and anger was close behind, anxiety or fear is much more abstact and less pressing to me. Which makes me wonder.


Yeah, 485 sounds better then. 
I have a lot of shame, too. But it's more of a reactive undercurrent I'm not as aware of. 

Striving for pristine, clear insight, the hunger to know and understand perfectly, the desire to see it all as an omniscent observer surveying the world and looking into every action, every symbol, every word as if I'm wearing a pair of X-ray specks--that hits me first. 

Right after that comes the desire to protect the innocent and fight against injustice and lies, save the world and be some kind of hero. And I think that is about tied with the need to stay in touch with the emotional world, the sensitivity and softer emotions. I need to remember the love, the joy, the sadness. All emotions are valuable and insightful. I learn so much from every emotion that I can't close myself off from the feelings. Though, I prefer not to share them with others, just indulge them inside my mind privately and see where they lead.

Being unwilling to be controlled and indulging anger are like so second nature to me that I never even realized that I did it. It's like when I'm angry, it feels like 4 and 8 are intertwined because I don't want to be cut off from the intensity of the anger. It's near impossible to let it go until it has all come out and I've achieved insight and restored the balance (the need to understand and see clearly). So, it's really hard for me to really measure and distinguish between 8 and 4, to be honest.

So, maybe as a 4 core you could help me distinguish between them a little better?


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## perfectcircle

marzipan01 said:


> Yeah, 485 sounds better then.
> I have a lot of shame, too. But it's more of a reactive undercurrent I'm not as aware of.
> 
> Striving for pristine, clear insight, the hunger to know and understand perfectly, the desire to see it all as an omniscent observer surveying the world and looking into every action, every symbol, every word as if I'm wearing a pair of X-ray specks--that hits me first.
> 
> Right after that comes the desire to protect the innocent and fight against injustice and lies, save the world and be some kind of hero. And I think that is about tied with the need to stay in touch with the emotional world, the sensitivity and softer emotions. I need to remember the love, the joy, the sadness. All emotions are valuable and insightful. I learn so much from every emotion that I can't close myself off from the feelings. Though, I prefer not to share them with others, just indulge them inside my mind privately and see where they lead.
> 
> Being unwilling to be controlled and indulging anger are like so second nature to me that I never even realized that I did it. It's like when I'm angry, it feels like 4 and 8 are intertwined because I don't want to be cut off from the intensity of the anger. It's near impossible to let it go until it has all come out and I've achieved insight and restored the balance (the need to understand and see clearly). So, it's really hard for me to really measure and distinguish between 8 and 4, to be honest.
> 
> So, maybe as a 4 core you could help me distinguish between them a little better?


Indulging in emotions is not soley four in nature, the difference is eights choose to ONLY indulge in anger and ignore sadness. For a four, anger is connected to sadness, for example, a wild uninhibited expression of anger is often connected to feeling victimized and will be expressed as so; and when angry may also be crying or close to tears. The anger of an eight feels good to them because it wards off feelings of weakness; it makes them feel like they are doing something or in control, and when angry, one becomes focused on attacked the enemy or defending yourself so you do not have to introspect or looks for holes in your own position. Doing so can be painful to an eight. When angry, they are a steadfast, unyielding force, an angry four looks like an emotional "what am I feeling omg do something about this you jerk!" whiplash... I know when I'm angry, I can shift between anger and hurt in three seconds... I am not focused on making my point but explaining the spring of where this feelings and am interested in adressing the initial hurt of initial issue.. you can imagine to an eight this pandering to past hurts is ridiculous, they'd rather steamroll over this!! So the anger of a four can look a lot less intimidating and more overwhelmingly emotional in focus. Other kinds of anger, such as righteous fighting for a cause, don't make me feel "emotionally" angry as in I am not personally hurt, I am just using power to fight for the cause, and to be honest, I'm ususally angry the first way, feeling hurt.

So to answer your question.... the anger you are expericing does not have much to do with a type four. You do not want to be cut off from the anger. It feels good. It is also really important for you to be clearly heard and understood- that is part of power, to make yourself heard and be effective, to make others adapt to your worldview. A nine core would not have this desire but shrink away rather than fight to make themself understood. What you are describing is type 8. A four core has much less to do with anger-- it is in the shame triad, not the eight triad, and it compensates for shame by trying to validate the "shameful real self" by saying, Well maybe it's wrong but it's unique! Maybe it's different but it's real! 
I can relate to what you were desribing because of the 4-*8* in me; my motivations would be not only to be understood but to express my hurt and to some degree, for the other person to validate my hurt, not by saying it'sr reasonable but by saying the see and understand it.. that's where the fours comes in. The eight comes in by not wanting to back down, for it being incredibly important that the anger is expressed, and to view expressing anger as legitimate.

The emotionality in the four, in contrast, can be anger, but is primary depression or melancholy; and if it is anger, it is never soley anger. You may not want to unnatach from the expression of anger, that is the core motivation of a type eight, open uninhibited expression of anger. A four wants open uninhibited expression... of EVERYTHING.


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## Kozy

Fellow 548 tritypes, what do you think of this?






Inguz, I agree completely. I feel this place we're in is more a cheap knock off the real version. I think the only thing that is real is the feelings we feel and they've been harnessed to manipulate us into furthering our evolution on Earth. Love for example, which should be for all, has been twisted and restrained into a feeling used to fuel the propagation of species. Existence shouldn't be like this.


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## Inguz

@Kozy I don't understand how someone can have the patience to plot a conspiracy theory like that. It's delusional.


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## marzipan01

adverseaffects said:


> Indulging in emotions is not soley four in nature, the difference is eights choose to ONLY indulge in anger and ignore sadness. For a four, anger is connected to sadness, for example, a wild uninhibited expression of anger is often connected to feeling victimized and will be expressed as so; and when angry may also be crying or close to tears. The anger of an eight feels good to them because it wards off feelings of weakness; it makes them feel like they are doing something or in control, and when angry, one becomes focused on attacked the enemy or defending yourself so you do not have to introspect or looks for holes in your own position. Doing so can be painful to an eight. When angry, they are a steadfast, unyielding force, an angry four looks like an emotional "what am I feeling omg do something about this you jerk!" whiplash... I know when I'm angry, I can shift between anger and hurt in three seconds... I am not focused on making my point but explaining the spring of where this feelings and am interested in adressing the initial hurt of initial issue.. you can imagine to an eight this pandering to past hurts is ridiculous, they'd rather steamroll over this!! So the anger of a four can look a lot less intimidating and more overwhelmingly emotional in focus. Other kinds of anger, such as righteous fighting for a cause, don't make me feel "emotionally" angry as in I am not personally hurt, I am just using power to fight for the cause, and to be honest, I'm ususally angry the first way, feeling hurt.
> 
> So to answer your question.... the anger you are expericing does not have much to do with a type four. You do not want to be cut off from the anger. It feels good. It is also really important for you to be clearly heard and understood- that is part of power, to make yourself heard and be effective, to make others adapt to your worldview. A nine core would not have this desire but shrink away rather than fight to make themself understood. What you are describing is type 8. A four core has much less to do with anger-- it is in the shame triad, not the eight triad, and it compensates for shame by trying to validate the "shameful real self" by saying, Well maybe it's wrong but it's unique! Maybe it's different but it's real!
> I can relate to what you were desribing because of the 4-*8* in me; my motivations would be not only to be understood but to express my hurt and to some degree, for the other person to validate my hurt, not by saying it'sr reasonable but by saying the see and understand it.. that's where the fours comes in. The eight comes in by not wanting to back down, for it being incredibly important that the anger is expressed, and to view expressing anger as legitimate.
> 
> The emotionality in the four, in contrast, can be anger, but is primary depression or melancholy; and if it is anger, it is never soley anger. You may not want to unnatach from the expression of anger, that is the core motivation of a type eight, open uninhibited expression of anger. A four wants open uninhibited expression... of EVERYTHING.


Hmmm....thank you for your insight.


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## Kozy

> @Kozy I don't understand how someone can have the patience to plot a conspiracy theory like that. It's delusional.


The video is a "hint" to me. From it I can draw no conclusions, I just acknowledge that it is strange and unignorable. I advise against projecting a belief against it and using it to dismiss it because it doesn't fit into a worldview, it is best to remain neutral to something like this. Anything else is being dishonest. Those two men share the same ears (as unique as fingerprints), the same mouth, filtrum, nose, and speak very similar. To deny this as legitimate, fascinating, and disturbing is dishonestly. Additionally, if we were to speak hypothetically, if some absurd conspiracy of grand proportions was occurring- we would have no damn idea. Things like this would be the only hints we have of such a thing, and that is why it is important to not unfairly dismiss them. Speaking hypothetically, of course.


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## sodden

You can find connections anywhere and spin them into a weird web of conspiracy, but that doesn't make it so. I consider conspiracy theories in the same way I consider religion: someone is looking for the perfect solution, the perfect little box of answers wrapped up in the perfect little bow. I don't know, it just seems really improbable to me. And kind of goofy.


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## Kozy

> You can find connections anywhere and spin them into a weird web of conspiracy, but that doesn't make it so. I consider conspiracy theories in the same way I consider religion: someone is looking for the perfect solution, the perfect little box of answers wrapped up in the perfect little bow. I don't know, it just seems really improbable to me. And kind of goofy.


Indeed you could. I would advise against comparing conspiracy theories to religion, they're completely different and it's a faulty connection that people often make. Religion is _indoctrinated_ onto people, it does not manifest because someone is frantically looking for a perfect solution, that's very dismissive of 99% of the world and all of our ancestors. Conspiracies would be better attributed to gullibility, stupidity, and deception rather than "someone wanting to know the answers." That is dismissive as well. If you watch many of the documentaries or four-hour long presentations by David Icke, who says reptilians run the world, they're very compelling, present a solid case to the gullible, and he's damn charming. _That_ is the reason people fall for it, not "wanting to have the perfect solution."

Additionally, regarding conspiracies, it is _incredibly_ unwise to bundle up the entire concept that the word "conspiracy" encompasses and dismiss it entirely. A conspiracy is simple two or more people working in secret, that's it. Our society has this culture of dismissing this very simple, very prevalent concept and it is disturbing and incredibly dangerous. Conspiracies must be dismissed on a case by case basis by objective, extensive analysis. If you haven't noticed, we have our entire country going down the drain currently because of this stigma attached to that word. If there is any good example of faulty human thinking, it is thinking that because some people believe strange conspiracies, such as reptilian overlords or the moon being a giant base, that all conspiracies are bunk.


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## marzipan01

So, I have finally come to the conclusion that I am a 854. 
In another thread, I was talking about enneagram type and reactivity and I thought this might be relevant as to my personal experience as an 854. 

_The 8: _

1. When I've made up my mind about something anything that stands in my way sparks anger. 
2. When someone or thing tries to take what is mine (my SO for example) sparks anger. 
3. When someone betrays me, my initial reaction is that they are dead to me.
4. Obviously, when someone or thing tries to control me, I react with anger. 

These are, of course, my initial reactions what I do with anger is another matter and depends on the context such as: how self-aware I am at the moment, how much control I have over myself at the moment, how much I'm thinking at the moment etc.
And on the plus side, when someone I love needs help, my reaction is to drop everything and fix/address the issue at hand.

_The tri-type: _

The 5 makes me annoyed when I feel misunderstood though my (initial and possibly inaccurate) reaction is to tell myself that everyone is beneath my level of intellect. I also get really angry about incompetence, generally speaking. When, from failure to see the big picture, people destroy innocent life--I just want to shake them all and force them to wake up. And I also see the passion of the 4w3 pushing me to look inside and find the source of my anger even though I'd rather not (anger is much easier). When they all combine I find myself (at best) finding the strength to channel my aggression into compassionate expression. The process is akin to the expression: when we achieve higher levels of being, we are left with great works of art instead of piles of dead bodies.

Just my experience as this tritype.


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## voicetrocity

Any 458's still looking to share experiences?


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## Muser

So...archetypally-speaking, what is the difference between the 'Scholar' (4-5-8) and the 'Researcher' (1-4-5) and why were they named thus?


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## reas

Very late to the convo, but I believe I'm a 4-5-8.


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## Entropic

Muser said:


> So...archetypally-speaking, what is the difference between the 'Scholar' (4-5-8) and the 'Researcher' (1-4-5) and why were they named thus?


I think the Researcher is more principled with a bend towards making some kind of personal improvement but I think the 8 in the Scholar is more likely to make you into a lonely wolf kind of person. I also think what you search for in life is different. I've come to consider the Scholar kind of like a meaning-searcher, due to how both 4, 5 and 8 all feel like there is some kind of lack within them. The life focus or goal, based on how I seem to approach the world at least, is the search for meaning in an existential sense. I can't speak for 145s, but I presume their life goal would be more related to some 1 moralistic drive to improve things. I would say that 145 is perhaps a bit more interested in pragmatic results. 8 can be pragmatic too, but at least as a core 5, I am more interested in finding personal meaning than I am leaving some kind of pragmatic improvement. Maybe core 8s who are 458 might have a different understanding of their tritype.


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## Vellyon

LeaT said:


> I am more interested in finding personal meaning than I am leaving some kind of pragmatic improvement. Maybe core 8s who are 458 might have a different understanding of their tritype.


Yeah this rings true for me, core 8. 

The pragmatic improvement I'm interested in involves myself - improving my strength, competence/knowledge and character in order to remain in control of my life. Anything that benefits other people is great, I'd like to think that on my way I do a little good here and there, but it's by no means what drives me.

I'm very pre-occupied with my own mythology, a strong 854 trait, but if that's done as a personal thing to enrich one's experience of life, then I think that's fine. It can give you the strength and the resolution to push on through the shitty parts of life. If you don't believe in yourself no one's waiting in line.

Just don't kid yourself into thinking anyone else gives a shit. 

I post stuff on here because it's anonymous and I can express my shortcomings without feeling overly exposed. Sure I'd like to think that what I say may be of some use but generally speaking most of it _is _just a way to express emotions that I don't feel comfortable discussing with people I know face to face. 

I'm sure that many other 845s might feel similar - we can sound pretentious from time to time but I suspect that this is often because we experience some extremely strange, mixed emotions that we only express - possibly even feel - when alone. Weird and intense is not a great combination so we train ourselves to stfu when it comes to "feelings". As a result we don't get much in terms of emotional grounding from others so we tend to get a bit twisted with regards to our inner landscape. 
*
TL;DR *845s are weird but that's how we get down.

* *


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## DesertWind




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## Entropic

DesertWind said:


>


Thank you for sharing that. I do relate a lot to the aspect of 458 seeking existential meaning, and I also relate a lot to being opinionated and often dismissing opinions because it doesn't fit my model of understanding. I felt they could have gone even deeper with this, trying to even further at the essential quality of the 458, but the little they hinted at I can relate a lot to. Katherine strikes me as some kind of Se type.


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## Flatlander

DesertWind said:


>


Do you have links to these for other tritypes?


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## Hunger

Phoenix_Rebirth said:


> Hello everybody.
> I am looking for users with this tritype combination.


Here are some more 845s to join the party.










Ralph Fiennes - 548










Marlon Brando - 485










Voldemort - 845










Aleister Crowley - 854










Gandalf - Intigrated 584










The Lizard King, Jim Morrison - 485


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## Vellyon

Robert Oppenheimer - 584
_"We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another."

"In some sort of crude sense, which no vulgarity, no humor, no overstatement can quite extinguish, the physicists have known sin; and this is a knowledge which they cannot lose."

"Both the man of science and the man of action live always at the edge of mystery, surrounded by it."


_


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## Bricolage

DesertWind said:


>


I can't believe how accurate this is of me - the cynicism, being resistant to alternative explanations, dark knight archetype, preferring the relative anonymity of the written word, etc. I like the last because, yeah, I get too heatedly opinionated in conversation. It's just that I'm intense - not upset.


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## Vellyon

Aesop Rock - 584
_
_



_
"I wanna be something spectacular on the day the sun runs outta batteries.
Attach my fashion to the casualties of anarchy.
Save my nickels up to buy that homeless man a brand new horn, then sit up on his crate as a witness to beauty born like this...
(I ain't gettin' any younger)"_


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## Vanguard

Vellyon said:


> Yeah this rings true for me, core 8.
> 
> The pragmatic improvement I'm interested in involves myself - improving my strength, competence/knowledge and character in order to remain in control of my life. Anything that benefits other people is great, I'd like to think that on my way I do a little good here and there, but it's by no means what drives me.
> 
> I'm very pre-occupied with my own mythology, a strong 854 trait, but if that's done as a personal thing to enrich one's experience of life, then I think that's fine. It can give you the strength and the resolution to push on through the shitty parts of life. If you don't believe in yourself no one's waiting in line.
> 
> Just don't kid yourself into thinking anyone else gives a shit.
> 
> I post stuff on here because it's anonymous and I can express my shortcomings without feeling overly exposed. Sure I'd like to think that what I say may be of some use but generally speaking most of it _is _just a way to express emotions that I don't feel comfortable discussing with people I know face to face.
> 
> I'm sure that many other 845s might feel similar - we can sound pretentious from time to time but I suspect that this is often because* we experience some extremely strange, mixed emotions that we only express - possibly even feel - when alone. Weird and intense is not a great combination so we train ourselves to stfu when it comes to "feelings". As a result we don't get much in terms of emotional grounding from others so we tend to get a bit twisted with regards to our inner landscape. *
> *
> TL;DR *845s are weird but that's how we get down.
> 
> * *


Yes. Having recently come to the conclusion that I am of this tri-type, this is well put.

I dislike the term the "Scholar" - that is more suited to 4/5 cores. I prefer the term "Pragmatist", because I see this type as the quintessentially pragmatic type; able to understand practicality better than any other type (practicality involves not only behaving rationally, but knowing when to be irrational). 

My personal experience of being this type is thus; I relate heavily to the tendency towards strong opinion that is difficult to change once my mind is made up. It is often painful to have to change my mindset once something becomes a "given", it takes significant effort and mulling over before I can accept it into my conceptual mind map.


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## Swordsman of Mana

@Phoenix_Rebirth
I have no idea why this type is called "The Scholar". I could see this working for 45_1_, but their is nothing scholarly about an 8 fix. I like to refer to these three types as "The Separation Triad" because they, in one form or another, define themselves by their separateness from others.

if I were to give this tritype a name, I would suggest "The Witch" or "The Demon" because they're very dark, closed off and, imo, the least "human" of each of their respective centers


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## Swordsman of Mana

@Oak
1) Gandalf is 1w9, not 458. 
I would say he's 1w9>5w4>4w3 So/Sx

2) Jim Morrison was 7w8. 
probably 7w8>4w3>9w8 Sx/So

Edit: if you would like some better examples of 458


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## Entropic

Swordsman of Mana said:


> the least "human" of each of their respective centers


lmao, the least human? Explain?


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## Swordsman of Mana

ephemereality said:


> lmao, the least human? Explain?


4s: asocial, reclusive, frequently dwells on dark/macabre thoughts 
5s: avaricious, closed off from the world, often described as robotic, prefer the world of systems to and technical work to that of people. 
8s: the type with the closest disposition to a predator, sociopathic tendencies, type most out of touch with the heart, feels internally dead

basically it goes back to what I was saying about them being separated. perhaps instead of "least human" I should have said "least social" or "least community minded"


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## Entropic

Swordsman of Mana said:


> 4s: asocial, reclusive, frequently dwells on dark/macabre thoughts
> 5s: avaricious, closed off from the world, often described as robotic, prefer the world of systems to and technical work to that of people.
> 8s: the type with the closest disposition to a predator, sociopathic tendencies, type most out of touch with the heart, feels internally dead
> 
> basically it goes back to what I was saying about them being separated. perhaps instead of "least human" I should have said "least social" or "least community minded"


I don't think you are incorrect per se, though perhaps you exaggerate it to make your point. You are correct in that the 458 tritype is what one could call socially removed in that it has a highly individualistic drive that cares more about oneself than it does for others or the rest of the world. It's an extremely selfish tritype in this regard though one can argue all types are selfish one way or another. 

But the 458 is ego-centric and only cares about its own world first and foremost. Even a 845 or 854 that is integrated would only care and let others in as a result of learning to trust the world. The trust isn't the same as 6 fear of it being seen as unstable or insecure, but instead it relies on a sense of the world being a place full of pain and hurts. The 458 seeks to remove itself from this in some way or another by intellectualizing it, or spending great deal of time being aware of their own hurts or by attempting to control this sense of hurt by not getting hurt again in some way.


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## Swordsman of Mana

ephemereality said:


> *I don't think you are incorrect per se, though perhaps you exaggerate it to make your point.* You are correct in that the 458 tritype is what one could call socially removed in that it has a highly individualistic drive that cares more about oneself than it does for others or the rest of the world. It's an extremely selfish tritype in this regard though one can argue all types are selfish one way or another.
> But the 458 is ego-centric and only cares about its own world first and foremost. Even a 845 or 854 that is integrated would only care and let others in as a result of learning to trust the world. The trust isn't the same as 6 fear of it being seen as unstable or insecure, but instead it relies on a sense of the world being a place full of pain and hurts. The 458 seeks to remove itself from this in some way or another by intellectualizing it, or spending great deal of time being aware of their own hurts or by attempting to control this sense of hurt by not getting hurt again in some way.


yes, I have a tendency to do that :tongue:
other than that, yeah, I pretty much agree.


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## Hunger

Swordsman of Mana said:


> 4s: asocial, reclusive, frequently dwells on dark/macabre thoughts
> 5s: avaricious, closed off from the world, often described as robotic, prefer the world of systems to and technical work to that of people.
> 8s: the type with the closest disposition to a predator, sociopathic tendencies, type most out of touch with the heart, feels internally dead
> 
> basically it goes back to what I was saying about them being separated. perhaps instead of "least human" I should have said "least social" or "least community minded"


I do not appreciate your unbalanced view.

For the sake of an analogy, that's like saying humans are parasites, when humans are dual natured & capable of great darkness & also great inspiration. There are people who make truly great choices & people who make truly terrible ones, just like there are healthy people & unhealthy people. 

If your assessment was accurate you also would have included healthy & average examples of 845. 

That being said I understand that you are trying to make a point.


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## Swordsman of Mana

Oak said:


> I do not appreciate your unbalanced view.


speaking as a fairly "separated" person myself (I think a lot of 7s are actually), I didn't consider the description an insult (most of my favorite people and fictional characters are pretty socially irreverent, mysterious and keep to themselves)



> For the sake of an analogy, that's like saying humans are parasites, when humans are dual natured & capable of great darkness & also great inspiration. There are people who make truly great choices & people who make truly terrible ones, just like there are healthy people & unhealthy people.


naturally, but that doesn't mean all personalities are equally inspiring. for example, on average, an ENFJ 2-7-8 is going to have a lot more charisma and ability to inspire people than an INTP 5-4-9 (of course, there are exceptions, look at Einstein or Bill Gates).

that said, perhaps I should have elaborated on the positive aspects a bit more explicitly. another way I would refer to the 458 is the "I don't give a shit what other people think" triad. in a world where most people obsess over the opinions of others and spend most of their time doing what is expected of them rather than what they _really_ want, I'd say that's pretty damn admirable



> If your assessment was accurate you also would have included healthy & average examples of 845.
> That being said I understand that you are trying to make a point.


Marilyn Manson and the chick from Underworld don't strike me as particularly unhealthy. 4-5-8 is a pretty rare tritype, so unfortunately, my examples probably weren't representative of the entire spectrum of health.

Edit: I almost forgot, since you wanted an example of a more integrated 4/5/8:


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## Animal

@_Oak_ @_Swordsman of Mana_

- I love how people insist that 4's care what people think, but the minute it's part of the 458 triad, it's the "I don't care what people think" triad.  I don't care what people think and I'm a 478, though it is important to me to have basic respect. This is more because I have _self-respect_ if I respect others. It really has nothing to do with whether they feel respected or not, or whether they like me.

- Representing all levels of health is not as easy as it sounds. Enneagram is about identifying life-traps. If a famous icon's enneagram is easily identifiable, that means their faults and life-traps are easy to see. Therefore they stand out as being part of that triad or type. If someone is integrated, it might be harder to notice that they're an icon of that type. Enneagram types aren't gold medals, they are potential pitfalls and life-traps. Unlike other systems, enneagram does offer opportunity to integrate and self-improve, but once you do that, would your type still be iconic?? It's a bit of a catch-22.

- Also, I agree that those examples weren't particularly unhealthy. Marilyn Manson was wild in his hayday but he is very successful and has done good things. He is an iconic symbol of _growth _and thus,_ potential._

- 4, 5, and 8 are the most over-typed types, partially because most people don't understand what lust, avarice & envy really are. 
- - - Lust is associated with animalism because it is a loss of humanity. When you cut yourself off from your humanity, then you have lust in its purest form. This is why the soul-child of 8 is 2... they ran from their vulnerable love-need and fought against it by toughening, lust, animalism and cutting off their humanity/vulnerability. Since they know they have this love-need deep down and they feel it will never be fulfilled, they become vengeful, wanting to take back from the world the innocence that has been taken from them. They become angry at the idea of 'going soft' and when they go soft for someone, they easily feel betrayed because now they have chosen to make themselves vulnerable. Once this inner child has been exposed and they've been betrayed, then the humanity is lost again and you are an object. Lust = objectification.
- - - Then take type 5, whose soul-child is 8. You have a type who is running from the monsterous animalism and lack of humanity that he senses, and as a life-trap, detaching from his very physical form and viewing himself as a 'disembodied mind' in order to escape the purely carnal, visceral, inhuman monster that he knows he is deep down. Avarice is about holding himself back from his anger, his emotions, his body, his carnal indulgences; minimizing needs so as to avoid the vicious and potentially dangerous soul-child 8, which they are afraid of, being that they are part of the fear triad. Clinging to the mind and control of the mind to escape the potential harm caused by the body and engagement with the world. Avarice is clinging to your precious distance, your precious mind, your precious power which would be potentially corrupted by your very own carnal desires. Think Gollum. Anyone who intrudes on your space "stole your precious from you." 5s view themselves as very powerful and potentially harmful and they are afraid of their carnality & human needs because they see it as inhuman. Lovely isn't it? Yet people like to see 5 as a glamorous intellectual and 8 as some kind of sexy lusty hero. 
- - - As for type 4, the soul-child 1 has wrath because things aren't fair, and so the 4 decides that since nothing is fair and equal, he is going to separate from the world and be unique, different, and build his own standard that nobody else can compare to. And thus an identity forms which relies upon building your own scale which is not the same as the others, so that you don't have to face the idea of equality or fairness or rightness which is too painful; because you are imperfect and you will be rejected, and even if you were perfect, things still wouldn't be fair. Thus envy forms because you envy a different kind of world where you could belong and be 'part of it,' and seen as you really are and still accepted. You will never be 'morally correct' or 'perfect' the way you are, so you might as well drop the idea altogether, create an identity, exploit it, push everyone else's standards out the window, and express your"self" [or self-image] in all your fucked up broken ugliness. Your pain & self-hatred and exploitation of it then becomes your identity, and you must cling to that identity and insist that others accept you 'with your faults' since you will never be perfect... and then cry about it when they reject you, which substantiates your glorification of your flaws and suffering, also known as your 'identity.' Hence, 'tragic romantic' does not sound so glamorous anymore.

- 8-4-5 is not the scholar, the intellectual, the artist, or the amazing magician or wizard. Like any tritype, it is three fucked up neuroses, and if we're going to study enneagram we might as well look at it for what it is, so that we can weed out our problems at base and thus self-improve. If we're doing it to self-glorify, or tritype-glorify.. we are just feeding our neuroses more deeply.

- "Health" - theoretically - is letting go of our ego, letting go of these fixations. A healthy [X type] would not match this description, but the idea of 'healthy' is thrown around too easily. Integration, and resolving your life-trap, requires conscientious study & attentiveness, and it is an ongoing process. You do not 'solve yourself' once and for all. You stay diligent, and health levels fluctuate. If we are going to be more realistic about what health is, we would rise above the fixative neurotic nature of the type and reach its highest potential through self-study and self-acceptance. We would not realistically 'transcend self' but rather 'shed self' like a snake shedding a skin that is too tight and coming into its more mature form.. and continuing to mature as such, through life. Still, without exploiting the fixative nature of an e-type [which is what an enneagram type is, by definition: a fixation], we would still be less recognizable as an icon, due to a more holistic approach to self and to the world.


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## Hunger

Swordsman of Mana said:


> speaking as a fairly "separated" person myself (I think a lot of 7s are actually), I didn't consider the description an insult (most of my favorite people and fictional characters are pretty socially irreverent, mysterious and keep to themselves)


We're not talking about insulting or offending here. Misrepresentation and petty stereotyping is what I'm talking about. I feel rather strongly against it. 



> naturally, but that doesn't mean all personalities are equally inspiring. for example, on average, an ENFJ 2-7-8 is going to have a lot more charisma and* ability to inspire people* than an INTP 5-4-9.


Rather than associating inspiration with a certain image(such charm & charisma) consider that inspiration comes in a million forms. I don't believe that the ability to do great good or great harm is subject to a certain personality type. What is subject to the personality type is the shade of the harm/good, what kind of good or harm is done. 



> Marilyn Manson and the chick from Underworld don't strike me as particularly unhealthy. 4-5-8 is a pretty rare tritype, so unfortunately, my examples probably weren't representative of the entire spectrum of health.


I was referring to your statements, not your examples. I am scolding your unbalanced representation of the tritype, not disagreeing that what you said was valid statements of the tritype at it's base/unhealthy side. Only that they were incomplete/unbalanced/out of perspective & thus encouraging misrepresentation of this tritype.



> Edit: I almost forgot, since you wanted an example of a more integrated 4/5/8:


G. I Gurdjieff & Daniel Day Lewis are both of this tritype as well.


----------



## Vellyon

"Scholar" is a good word - it implies an interest in the esoteric and a more individualistic nature than say "Researcher" which is 145.

While the 1 wishes to work within the framework set out by society and improve upon it, the 8 will seek to challenge this authority and redefine the boundaries of what is known and understood.


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## Animal

*Deep breath* Now that I've finished my first rant..

- Gandalf is a bad example of an enneagram type. He is a one-dimensional character because he has lived for such a long time (longer than humans) and he is immortal. He had more time to shed self or transcend ego which is less realistic in the span of our own lifetime. One could argue that he has achieved holy perfection, holy omniscience, or a few other holy ideas. His weakness & mistake is trusting Saruman to counsel him, so if you are going to break him down by figuring out his weakness, it is worth looking at why he might have trusted Saruman when someone of his intelligence should know better. It is because of the love in his heart - and because he is so good that sometimes he does not recognize evil. Does that make him a 1? Maybe. Or a 9? Positive outlook and Holy Love? Maybe. An integrated 6, who sticks up for the underdog and achieves Holy Faith, and slipped back into '6' by seeking guidance from an authority figure who he trusted? It is very hard to say. To obtain realistic examples of types, you need to find mortal human beings or well-rounded fictional characters whose faults are clearly apparent.

- A better example of an enneagram type in LOTR is the only character who actually has a semi-realistic personality: Aragorn. He, too, has a longer lifespan than we do, due to his mixed heritage. However he is a more empathetic character, with humanity and potential for temptation which is realistic and relatable in a human context. His weaknesses end up with following his own path to moral rightness, hating to be a King.. and eventually owning the title in order to do good... I could see this being an integration path for a type 1, in a more realistic way. If I wanted to be really obnoxious about it, I would pose he's an integrated 4, who once wanted to have his own separate identity, and then integrated to 1 in order to embrace a larger purpose that was more world-inclusive. The guy is painfully romantic after all. I can make a few other cases for type 2 and maybe more if I think about it enough. However, while he is a better example of a real person than Gandalf, he is still not quite multi-dimensioned or twisted enough to be broken down via enneagram in a way that would actually teach anyone anything about themselves. In order to see our own potential to obtain an ideal, we must also acknowledge where we are starting from, and that starting point will _always_ be less than ideal.

- An enneagram type in a character or a rockstar has to display a fixation, a life-trap. Otherwise it is just idle pontification for the sake of fluffing our own feathers, or brushing each other's feathers... whatever suits you. It's fun, and I have engaged in it myself, but I recognize it for what it is: pontification for my amusement. Having an argument about a character's enneagram type who is super-human and has no fixations or flaws makes very little sense in terms of what enneagram actually is.

- If you must associate Gandalf with enneagram, it would make more sense to figure out which types would be most likely to view him as a symbol of their Holy Idea.


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## Animal

The more I think about it, Aragorn could just as easily be a symbol of an integrated 4 as an integrated 1. If we are to take into account

- where he started out
- what might have caused him to start out that way
- what caused him to integrate

We have to fill in a bit of backstory ourselves, but let's put the pieces together. He had the chance to be King which would be very attractive to a young, unintegrated 1: he would have the power to correct things. But instead Aragorn chose to reject his position of power in favor of individualism. He rejected his _duty_. He rejected humans in favor of elves. This is very idealistic-triad with a reactive and romantic bent. There's also some Sp-4 Dauntlessness: "I can do this myself, I don't need you." Then, many many years later, after being in love, growing into a mature man, and integrating, he decides to fulfill his duty, and do something more inclusive to society which could right some of the wrongs in the world. Integration to 1? His journey could be seen as one of accepting duty and coming into his _true_ identity. I am not sure I see 7 as an integration here. Yet if he is viewed as a static character, most people would see him as a 1.

Characters who are already integrated or almost-integrated at the beginning of the story provide a very poor backdrop for typing, but if we are to look at people as potential, and we are to look at the whole cycle of their life, then we can get a realistic grasp on their type and how it shaped their life journey and growth.

This has nothing to do with 458s, but I made this post to demonstrate the point that people are not static, health is not static, and approaching typing on a static basis ignores the fundamentals.


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## bearotter

Just a little thing here:



> Like any tritype, it is three fucked up neuroses,







> 4, 5, and 8 are the most over-typed types, partially because most people don't understand what lust, avarice & envy really are.




I agree of course that generally the point of these types is missed, and that this is the way I'd think to look at things as well. That said, somehow I've found a lot of popular presentations aren't getting into the understanding of such things as envy, avarice etc from the standpoint of neuroses (that very word --- becomes somewhat more popularized more once people have read Naranjo, at least as per my forum observations). So while it's true people don't understand these terms as they ought, I'm thinking part of this is how they are sometimes presented.

And what I wonder is: why are they presented as they are often misrepresented in easy popular sources flying around? Part of me wants to think there's been a tendency for mixing up a type with a simplification and perversion of its Holy-Idea, e.g. type 5 and omniscience. I think many types can seek omniscience of some form, but it'll have a very separate meaning when applied correctly in this context.


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## bearotter

Also, hadn't heard the Gollum reference before, that was a vivid image.


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## Animal

bearotter said:


> And what I wonder is: why are they presented as they are often misrepresented in easy popular sources flying around? Part of me wants to think there's been a tendency for mixing up a type with a simplification and perversion of its Holy-Idea, e.g. type 5 and omniscience. I think many types can seek omniscience of some form, but it'll have a very separate meaning when applied correctly in this context.


People can still form their own viewpoint. There are lots of sources available. Reading Naranjo, Maitri, RH, Rhodes, Ichazo, Fauvres, Palmer... usually each author or group of authors will cover some things very well, and cover other things poorly. But information like what I just provided... on the one hand I have studied a lot, and I have been close with some very well-versed people and discussed type with them in depth... but on the other I tend to see the deeper meaning of things, rather than just list some superficial traits to make myself feel good. If I wanted to bloat my ego I would just record myself singing or take hot photos and let my fans woo me on facebook all day. I'm here to look myself in the face and unfurl issues such as this mammoth ego of mine. ;D Anyone who _wants_ to get into the deeper issues has enough information available that they can do so.


Edit @bearotter


bearotter said:


> Also, hadn't heard the Gollum reference before, that was a vivid image.


I came up with that one years ago when I first encountered enneagram.


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## bearotter

Animal said:


> usually each author or group of authors will cover some things very well, and cover other things poorly.




And that's exactly what I wonder about a lot. Why is this! It's not a question I expect a direct answer to, so much as it's a pretty fundamental thing I seek to know overall.


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## Animal

bearotter said:


> And that's exactly what I wonder about a lot. Why is this! It's not a question I expect a direct answer to, so much as it's a pretty fundamental thing I seek to know overall. [/COLOR]


It has to do with their own biases through the lens of their own type & cognitive functions, their experiences with people of that type category, etc. Nobody is omniscient or free of bias. 
Sorry 5s... I know that's not what you like to hear..


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## bearotter

> i came up with that one years ago when i first encountered enneagram. ​




​


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## bearotter

Animal said:


> It has to do with their own biases through the lens of their own type & cognitive functions, their experiences with people of that type category, etc. Nobody is omniscient or free of bias.




Yup yup I know. And this drives me crazy more than I can quite express in words. edit - Which is why I guess I'm still seeking further what's behind it.


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## Animal

bearotter said:


> Yup yup I know. And this drives me crazy more than I can quite express in words. [/COLOR]


Why? 

It's human nature. Our flaws and quirks make us different and beautiful!!!! [says the 4]


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## The Scorched Earth

Sexual 4-5-1 here, which on a bad day can come off like a 4-5-8, I guess.


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## DomNapoleon

Why does this thread keep being re-awakened? 
It reminds me of my shameful past ... :mellow::crying:


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## Animal

Phoenix_Rebirth said:


> Why does this thread keep being re-awakened?
> It reminds me of my shameful past ... :mellow::crying:


Sorry. I didn't reawaken it. But I provoked everybody the moment I saw it. ;D

I used to type as a 584 as well. You're not alone!!! <3 <3 And anyhow there's no shame in it. Everyone mistypes.


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## Entropic

bearotter said:


> Just a little thing here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree of course that generally the point of these types is missed, and that this is the way I'd think to look at things as well. That said, somehow I've found a lot of popular presentations aren't getting into the understanding of such things as envy, avarice etc from the standpoint of neuroses (that very word --- becomes somewhat more popularized more once people have read Naranjo, at least as per my forum observations). So while it's true people don't understand these terms as they ought, I'm thinking part of this is how they are sometimes presented.
> 
> And what I wonder is: why are they presented as they are often misrepresented in easy popular sources flying around? Part of me wants to think there's been a tendency for mixing up a type with a simplification and perversion of its Holy-Idea, e.g. type 5 and omniscience. I think many types can seek omniscience of some form, but it'll have a very separate meaning when applied correctly in this context.


Tritype is pretty darn difficult to describe to someone who is not that tritype. I see tritype as a form of synergization where all the motivations form into a greater tritype motivation in itself. I for example think that the way 458 works is that there is a need to fundamentally control the world through the means of intellect and power, and this is because one was so hurt at a certain point in life the world itself can no longer be trusted and thus there is also an envy that develops towards those who seem to for some reason be without this hurt, because vengeance dictates that if you suffer, so should they because it was their fault in the first place for making this place so rotten, and avarice would deal with that from the point of view of gathering resources for vengeance by intellectualizing said strategy. As an example. 

Marilyn Manson also easily and clearly belongs to this tritype and I love his song King Kill 33 precisely because it expresses the sentiments of the 458 so well:






_With all that said, I still think the term "the scholar" is a terrible name for the archetype. There's zero scholarly about the 458. Now, a term that is usually attributed to 5w4 is much better fit for the 458 and that is the *iconoclast* because that is exactly what the 458 is. People tend to want to tear down symbols, question current authority, belief in systems, ideas in favor of their own understanding. Granted, I may be influenced by my 4 wing here but that's how I see it and that's how the 458s in fiction and IRL tend to appear as well. What was Snape but an iconoclast in his own way? 

Another 458:




_


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## Hunger

@_Animal_,

This is why I am not a fan of Naranjo. He puts the Enneagram out of perspective. It's not entirely his fault, people tend to over-interpret his enneagram neurosis, but still. 
Allow me to explain.

The universe consists of two things, energy & potential energy(matter). Thus the entire universe is essentially comprised of energy. Throughts, emotions, energy are all frequencies. The senses are simply different ways in which man absorbs these frequencies. The Enneagram is the study of these frequencies. Thus the Enneagram is not just a personality system. It is the system of energy, frequency, music, color, movement, etc. 

However the Enneagram is neutral. Each frequency moves both up & down. Kingdoms rise & fall, as do people, music, seasons, etc. The Enneagram is simply the song of the universe, each point a different note in the music. What is fucked up is how selfishly we as humans assign this system to only our personalities without acknowledging the greater whole.

Crucify me for not adhereing to your understanding of the "fucked up neurosis" of the Enneagram but I think you're missing the full picture. The key to understanding the Enneagram in not admitting how fucked up we are but what we as humans are capable of both terrible & great. A balanced view. I don't just mean introspection, but realizing how the same vibrations that move through us are universal. We are simply microcosms of the cosmos.

Seeing the Enneagram for what it is is not holding a magnifying glass to it's low vibrations. I agree it is vital to understand the low vibrations & identify their part in the whole, but so see them as being the whole is missing the picture. Perhaps you're implying that the low vibrations is the place to start, in that case I agree with you.


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## Hunger

bearotter said:


> And that's exactly what I wonder about a lot. Why is this! It's not a question I expect a direct answer to, so much as it's a pretty fundamental thing I seek to know overall. [/COLOR]


The man responsible for introducing the Enneagram to the modern world, G I Gurdjieff, has the best view on the matter, in my opinion.


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## bearotter

@_Oak_ - thanks. Heard the name, never read anything by him as yet. Any particular recommendation on what by him to look into?


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## Animal

Oak said:


> @Animal,
> 
> This is why I am not a fan of Naranjo. He puts the Enneagram out of perspective. It's not entirely his fault, people tend to over-interpret his enneagram neurosis, but still.
> Allow me to explain.
> 
> The universe consists of two things, energy & potential energy(matter). Thus the entire universe is essentially comprised of energy. Throughts, emotions, energy are all frequencies. The senses are simply different ways in which man absorbs these frequencies. The Enneagram is the study of these frequencies. Thus the Enneagram is not just a personality system. It is the system of energy, frequency, music, color, movement, etc.
> 
> However the Enneagram is neutral. Each frequency moves both up & down. Kingdoms rise & fall, as do people, music, seasons, etc. The Enneagram is simply the song of the universe, each point a different note in the music. What is fucked up is how selfishly we as humans assign this system to only our personalities without acknowledging the greater whole.
> 
> Crucify me for not adhereing to your understanding of the "fucked up neurosis" of the Enneagram but I think you're missing the full picture. The key to understanding the Enneagram in not admitting how fucked up we are but what we as humans are capable of both terrible & great. A balanced view. I don't just mean introspection, but realizing how the same vibrations that move through us are universal. We are simply microcosms of the cosmos.
> 
> 
> Seeing the Enneagram for what it is is not holding a magnifying glass to it's low vibrations. I agree it is vital to understand the low vibrations & identify their part in the whole, but so see them as being the whole is missing the picture. Perhaps you're implying that the low vibrations is the place to start, in that case I agree with you.


The beauty of enneagram is that it connects us to the other enneagram types on the circle (thus growth point and disintegration), the inner child, the other types and people who are those types, our own potential, our own downfall, etc. It operates on the principle that the way out is through. The disintegration point's growth pattern is cited as what a type needs to embrace in order to integrate. The 'neuroses' I mentioned were my own interpretation, not Naranjo-based, but most closely related to Maitri's soul-child concept, which demonstrates how the whole thing is connected. The connectivity of enneagram is what makes it a system with so much potential for growth. 

The problem with rejecting the bare-boned neuroses is this: where's the animal? We are all animals, and you, yourself, are interested in spirit animals. Why? Animals are ruthless and selfish. Animals kill other animals with no remorse, so they can eat. We love animals because we see their power and their simplicity; they strip away a lot human bullshit; they are honest. We see ourselves in animals because we know that we have this beast inside of ourselves too. We know in a sense that inner beast is more honest than the other bullshit we encounter day to day. And that is very real. Human. 

Even Gurdjieff would claim that our enneagram fixations are lies that we told to ourselves, and that lie needs to be unfurled before we can transcend the limits of our ego. So choose any author you want, and he is a great choice - but the message is the same. The message is that a 'healthy example' of that type would not be easily recognizable as that 'type' because they would have moved around the enneagram circle and embraced their humanity in a more holistic way. The type-fixation is a starting point and that's why unhealthy [type X] is iconic.

Having a type-example so perfect as Gandalf, only forces us to reject ourselves because we are not perfect, and it ruins the potential for growth that enneagram offers. Everyone has an inner beast, and this is why unhealthy examples are iconic of our own beast. Because when they are at their worst, we see in them, our own humanity. By humanity, I mean mortality, vulnerability: our enneagram fixation. In Gandalf, there's no selfishness. No animalism. He is a symbol of a holy idea, and a transcendence, but it's not an honest potential from which we can grow into something more holy.

To cite myself as an example, my type was much more iconic when I was unhealthy. There is a reason why very few people on PerC recognized me as a 4, and why I mistyped so many times. Because I've worked on my 4 issues (even if not through the lens of enneagram) and I've been more healthy for many years. I am no longer an iconic 4 example. Once you see the 4, it cannot be unseen, but it was hard to identify in the first place. But it is very very easy to identify if you look at photos or writing from the period of my darker times. That is why the 'unhealthy' [type X] is easier to spot. It doesn't make me less of a 4, but a lot of people have suggested gut types 1 or 8 much more than 4. People have suggested 7 to me repeatedly, and 7 is the high side of my own integration point, and is cited as the type 4's learn the most from, for that reason. So that should say something about identifying healthy examples. You have to look at the bigger picture and it's a lot harder to spot where they started unless you know their history.


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## Animal

To illustrate my point, Gurdjieff's Fourth Way uses diagrams like these:


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## Animal

bearotter said:


> @_Oak_ - thanks. Heard the name, never read anything by him as yet. Any particular recommendation on what by him to look into?

















This is the book I've heard cited the most often, "The Fourth Way" - but it's someone else's interpretation of his work. I've read some excerpts & plan to read the whole thing.

http://www.holybooks.com/gurdjieff-enneagram-and-the-fourth-way/

@bearotter, hit refresh, becuase you just thanked this while I was updating. I managed to find the video I was looking for after I posted, lol.


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## bearotter

@Animal -- thanks, I'll check it out.


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## Hunger

Animal said:


> The beauty of enneagram is that it connects us to the other enneagram types on the circle (thus growth point and disintegration), the inner child, the other types and people who are those types, our own potential, our own downfall, etc. It operates on the principle that the *way out* is through.


Way out?



> The problem with rejecting the bare-boned neuroses is this: where's the animal? We are all animals, and you, yourself, are interested in spirit animals. Why? Animals are ruthless and selfish.


Did I reject the bare-boned neurosis or did I reject then context in which it was represented? I am ruthless & selfish, unlike most animals. I am also usnlefish & empathetic, unlike many others. It just depends on where I am on the scale. If I am hungry I am more likely to trow a punch or lose my temper as opposed to when I am tired & satiated. 

Context - I can not stress this enough. I am just tired of reading drawls & drawls of low-vibrational context. 



> Animals kill other animals with no remorse, so they can eat.


Lions & other cats, after catching their prey, kill mercifully by strangling their prey. Whilst scavengers such as hyenas will eat their prey alive. To say every animal is a savage is the same as saying all humans are intelligent & superior. I know people who are dumber than some dolphins. Animals have a innate sense of identity, they are conscious beings with their own sense of reality. 

There is no remorse because there is a natural cycle that these animals subconsciously understand. 



> We love animals because we see their power and their simplicity; they strip away a lot human bullshit; they are honest. We see ourselves in animals because we know that we have this beast inside of ourselves too. We know in a sense that inner beast is more honest than the other bullshit we encounter day to day. And that is very real. Human.


Ego is the boundary that separates one life form from another. Appearance is the illusion. We are all energy & matter, only in different configurations & forms. Energy that resonates with the song of the cosmos(Enneagram). 



> Even Gurdjieff would claim that our enneagram fixations are lies that we told to ourselves, and that lie needs to be unfurled before we can transcend the limits of our ego.


I think he would be more akin to the idea that we are all branches on the same tree & that we must learn to reach for the heavens rather than fight the other branches. There is no "greater goal" in the universe, it is what you make it. What I believe Gurdjieff was saying is that we must strive for individual conscious awakening so that we can stop our petty struggles & transcend the chaos of our petty conflicts. An objective awakening & realization, not a shedding of the ego but rather a returning of the ego to it's source, the cosmos. 



> So choose any author you want, and he is a great choice - but the message is the same. The message is that a 'healthy example' of that type would not be easily recognizable as that 'type' because they would have moved around the enneagram circle and embraced their humanity in a more holistic way. The type-fixation is a starting point and that's why unhealthy [type X] is iconic.


Yes, perhaps. I prefer, as I've said before, authors who capture it in it's context. Rather than plot observations of it's lowliest vibrations & then leave the readers to figure for a direction. I find such works, maimed, directionless & inconclusive. 

That being said I haven't read much of Naranjo, for this reason. My distaste for the man is an excellent example of the branches of the tree fighting the others rather than picking the truth from his contributions & growing to a higher vibration. Ahwell fuck it,
I prefer the hatred & conflict, it's my flavor.



> Having a type-example so perfect as Gandalf, only forces us to reject ourselves because we are not perfect,


Do I sense a note of envy? I view him in a different context, as would each of the 9 vices. 



> and it ruins the potential for growth that enneagram offers.


Shall we arrest perfection & greatness on charges of public self-growth disruption? 



> Everyone has an inner beast, and this is why unhealthy examples are iconic of our own beast. Because when they are at their worst, we see in them, our own humanity. By humanity, I mean mortality, vulnerability: our enneagram fixation. In Gandalf, there's no selfishness. No animalism. He is a symbol of a holy idea, and a transcendence, but it's not an honest potential from which we can grow into something more holy.


I dissagree. When he refuses to touch the ring he is demonstrating his self interests. For if he was to touch the ring it would become his master & he would lose mastery overhimself unleashing his want of power & thus wielding him into an object of destruction. Or perhaps he is acting out of his 2 integration, in the interest & saftey of those who he would otherwise trample & destroy.

A less careful eye might read this as "self control", but that would be missing the suppressed/subtle motivations.



> To cite myself as an example, my type was much more iconic when I was unhealthy. There is a reason why very few people on PerC recognized me as a 4, and why I mistyped so many times.


Consider also that self-projection as rooted in your identification has a part to play. I was thrown off scent by your strong & passionate sense of carnal identity. 



> Because I've worked on my 4 issues (even if not through the lens of enneagram) and I've been more healthy for many years. I am no longer an iconic 4 example. Once you see the 4, it cannot be unseen, but it was hard to identify in the first place. But it is very very easy to identify if you look at photos or writing from the period of my darker times.


Once again that is your personal account. My darker days were confused & unclear. When I tried to pick my disintegration-inspired works apart I was unable to come to a conclusion. 



> That is why the 'unhealthy' [type X] is easier to spot.


Easier, yes.



> It doesn't make me less of a 4, but a lot of people have suggested gut types 1 or 8 much more than 4. People have suggested 7 to me repeatedly, and 7 is the high side of my own integration point, and is cited as the type 4's learn the most from, for that reason. So that should say something about identifying healthy examples. You have to look at the bigger picture and it's a lot harder to spot where they started unless you know their history.



I don't dissagree with you on this, I was just arguing a different point.

As you can quite clearly see, @_Animal_, I'm riding the context band wagon now & I'll ride it over every out-of-context thing I happen to happen upon. Or am I just hungry? Hmm what could the context of this rant be I wonder?


----------



## Hunger

bearotter said:


> @_Oak_ - thanks. Heard the name, never read anything by him as yet. Any particular recommendation on what by him to look into?


I have only read reconstructions of his teachings & listened to his opinions, observations & interpretations on the matter. I have also researched his life story, sources & excerpts of from some of his works. I can say in full honesty he's the authority on the matter, the rest have just sharpened the work he introdced to the modern world. "Meetings With Remarkable Men" the second book in a trilogy of criticisms on the "Life of Man" is a good one I've heard. 

I intend to start on it right after I finish Harry Potter & the Prisoner of Azkaban(one of my favorites).I think it would be fitting to note that he was a 854.


----------



## Entropic

Oak said:


> I have only read reconstructions of his teachings & listened to his opinions, observations & interpretations on the matter. I have also researched his life story, sources & excerpts of from some of his works. I can say in full honesty he's the authority on the matter, the rest have just sharpened the work he introdced to the modern world. "Meetings With Remarkable Men" the second book in a trilogy of criticisms on the "Life of Man" is a good one I've heard.
> 
> I intend to start on it right after I finish Harry Potter & the Prisoner of Azkaban(one of my favorites).I think it would be fitting to note that he was a 854.


A question, but would you see him as a form of iconoclast?


----------



## Blystone

Oak said:


> That being said I haven't read much of Naranjo, for this reason. My distaste for the man is an excellent example of the branches of the tree fighting the others rather than picking the truth from his contributions & *growing to a higher vibration.* Ahwell fuck it,
> I prefer the hatred & conflict, it's my flavor.


http://www.bookult.org/files/Alchem...on/Franz Bardon - IIH 2001 Merkur Edition.pdf

Good luck.


----------



## Hunger

ephemereality said:


> A question, but would you see him as a form of iconoclast?


He painted sparrows yellow & sold them as canaries to get by.


----------



## Animal

Oak said:


> Way out?


The way out of being controlled by our unconscious compulsions to our own detriment.



> Did I reject the bare-boned neurosis or did I reject then context in which it was represented? I am ruthless & selfish, unlike most animals. I am also usnlefish & empathetic, unlike many others. It just depends on where I am on the scale. If I am hungry I am more likely to trow a punch or lose my temper as opposed to when I am tired & satiated.


You rejected unhealthy, average health, and decently healthy _human_ examples and complained they weren't healthy enough, but instead you posted Gandalf as an example of an 845.

Would you claim to be healthier than Marilyn Manson? Or do you relate more closely to Gandalf? You know I love your insights & admire your talents tremendously, but I would personally put you in a context with other people who have also demonstrated tremendous insight and creativity, since I see that in you. However I don't think you're an immortal, selfless wizard - but maybe I'm mistaken. I could still be convinced by a strong argument and a few demonstrations. 



> Context - I can not stress this enough. I am just tired of reading drawls & drawls of low-vibrational context.


I love it when people see themselves as magicians, wizards, animals, magical beings and the like, or view these characters as inspirational forces, and demonstrate their capacity to reach beyond the limits. 

However, I find it hilarious when people associate such feats with their enneagram type, when enneagram by its very nature is posed as a fixative trap, whereas the whole enneagram circle is posed as an opportunity for growth. If our type itself is glorious, the concept no longer works. That means we would trap ourselves in that type, and the whole idea of integration and moving around the whole circle and becoming part of a more holistic connection with the circle and the cosmos would be nullified.



> Lions & other cats, after catching their prey, kill mercifully by strangling their prey. Whilst scavengers such as hyenas will eat their prey alive. To say every animal is a savage is the same as saying all humans are intelligent & superior. I know people who are dumber than some dolphins. Animals have a innate sense of identity, they are conscious beings with their own sense of reality.
> 
> There is no remorse because there is a natural cycle that these animals subconsciously understand.


Dolphins are highly intelligent & have sex for pleasure. I would sooner compare dumb people to sheep or ants based on the way they behave.

Anyway, my point wasn't to insult animals. There are also animals who are willing to self-sacrifice in order to save their family or group. Most animals will put themselves out for their offspring. Etc. But my point was that there is a natural cycle - just as you said. And that is why they kill without remorse. Humans are conscious of remorse and other sentiments which cause us to attribute morals, guilt, and other constructions to actions which feel natural. This is why I would cite our inner truths as being animalistic or savage, whereas our consciousness and the values we attribute to it are humanistic. 

If you cut me down to base, with no social consciousness, no morals or values imposed on me, I still have compassion. I would still put myself out for a child because it's instinctual. I would still stick up for my friends because it's instinctual. Various animals display different types of instinctual compassion, love, friendship, etc. So I am not claiming this isn't instinctual. In fact, I think the reason people forget about their compassion is because they over-think, and they attribute too many values and complexities to simple, animalistic, instinctual feelings and truths such as compassion. If someone else feels good, I feel good. My cat was the same way, he could pick up the vibes of others. So it's in my best interest for the people around me to be vibing in a way that makes me feel better as well. 

That being said, there is still the base nature of animals to act on their instincts without attributing value to it or thinking about it. This is why the comparison with enneagram compulsion is apt: the compulsion itself is a very base part of our nature, for better or worse. It's automatic. But as humans, we have the capacity to choose whether we want to run on auto-pilot and blindly follow our compulsions, or whether we want to embrace our deeper, holistic nature (connection with the whole circle) through self-examination, choices which help us to better ourselves, and transcendence.



> Ego is the boundary that separates one life form from another. Appearance is the illusion. We are all energy & matter, only in different configurations & forms. Energy that resonates with the song of the cosmos(Enneagram).


If that is the case, then what is the difference between each enneagram type? Would you claim that our e-type is simply the part we are to play in the cosmos, rather than a false configuration of ego which causes unconscious compulsions? If that is the case, how could we use enneagram to grow, if our role is pre-determined and all that enneagram is, is energy?



> I think he would be more akin to the idea that we are all branches on the same tree & that we must learn to reach for the heavens rather than fight the other branches. There is no "greater goal" in the universe, it is what you make it. What I believe Gurdjieff was saying is that we must strive for individual conscious awakening so that we can stop our petty struggles & transcend the chaos of our petty conflicts. An objective awakening & realization, not a shedding of the ego but rather a returning of the ego to it's source, the cosmos.


Exactly. The petty struggles are where enneagram types come in. This is the very chaos that must be transcended. Objective awakening and realization pertains to seeing what we have done to ourselves, recognizing this chaos and petty struggle (enneagram type) and then growing from that point.



> Yes, perhaps. I prefer, as I've said before, authors who capture it in it's context. Rather than plot observations of it's lowliest vibrations & then leave the readers to figure for a direction. I find such works, maimed, directionless & inconclusive.
> 
> That being said I haven't read much of Naranjo, for this reason. My distaste for the man is an excellent example of the branches of the tree fighting the others rather than picking the truth from his contributions & growing to a higher vibration. Ahwell fuck it,
> I prefer the hatred & conflict, it's my flavor.


Well as they say, "Don't knock it til you try it."

I understand why you don't like Naranjo, and I don't entirely disagree. His correlations are not only over the top, but also, he only correlated each type with neuroses and psychiatric disorders in order to gain credit for enneagram in the psychiatric community, so it wouldn't be written off by therapists as useless and 'new agey.' However Naranjo himself, explains this at the beginning of his book, that the diagnoses are not necessarily belonging to a person of that type, and what his goal is. Still, I find the book helpful - as long as it's taken in context, and not too literally. If I'm going to study something, I want to know all sides, unbiased. I want to know the dark, the light. I want the ugly and the terrible along with the beautiful and the holy. I would imagine someone (especially a 5??) would value being objective and unbiased, and taking all angles into account, especially if you are going to cite them. Wouldn't you want to have that information at hand before touting a personal, emotionally-based opinion on the matter?




> Do I sense a note of envy? I view him in a different context, as would each of the 9 vices.


This is a misunderstanding of envy, but what's funny is, as soon as I posted I knew you would say that. 

Envy isn't being jealous of another person - and no, I am not jealous of Gandalf's personal transcendence, although I would love to have that gorgeous long, white hair.  Envy is more of a pervasive feeling that there's something better out there, but it's not here. Nobody - especially 4s - would envy someone who they can't understand or can't relate to; so different from themselves and their identity or sense of self. If you are curious, this video and song is a great demonstration of how envy and the longing for a hero works:








> Shall we arrest perfection & greatness on charges of public self-growth disruption?


What does perfection mean to you personally? When you imagine yourself reaching your highest potential, who or what do you see? Where do you aim, when you strive for personal growth?




> I dissagree. When he refuses to touch the ring he is demonstrating his self interests. For if he was to touch the ring it would become his master & he would lose mastery overhimself unleashing his want of power & thus wielding him into an object of destruction. Or perhaps he is acting out of his 2 integration, in the interest & saftey of those who he would otherwise trample & destroy.
> 
> A less careful eye might read this as "self control", but that would be missing the suppressed/subtle motivations.


When I first wrote my post it was a lot longer and I talked about this. What I said was: he demonstrates possible weakness, humanity, powerlust, etc... as a potential, in this scene. He also demonstrates making a mistake: trusting Saruman. But there is not nearly enough actual footage, or scenes, in which Gandalf is actively doing something human, weak, wrong, etc. The potential is hinted, but in order to attribute deep enough motives to identify an enneagram type, we would need to see it acted out in real time. We would need to see a _compulsion_. Our enneagram type is a compulsion. It's not a state of mind.

Any type - not just 8 - would have some form of power lust or fear of unleashing their own power. What is specifically 8 about this? Why can't it be integrated 6, 1, 9, 3?



> Consider also that self-projection as rooted in your identification has a part to play. I was thrown off scent by your strong & passionate sense of carnal identity.


It's not just a sense of identity. I really am that carnal. I don't appreciate the implication that just because 4s want to express themselves, everything they do is fake or rooted in a sense of identity, or a need for an audience. There is a wide variety of 4s, just like any other type, and some 4s form their sense of self, and what they wish to express, based on who they really are, and have always been since they were small. I've been carnal since I was tiny... my parents used to say "Human bites!" because I would devour two steaks in ten minutes. I was adventurous, climbed trees & romped in the woods alone (not to make a show), wrestled with boys in kindergarten, ran around my yard naked & played in the mud, played hide & seek with my cat etc. At that point it was too early to be an identity. Perhaps you were thrown off scent because my identity is rooted in who I actually am? Do you view image types as being decidedly fake, or existing for the purpose of an audience alone?

In terms of image, the difference between me and a core 8 is that I compulsively prioritize expression of who I am, as a lifestyle, through fiction or music, or conversation, whereas 8s would compulsively prioritize power and control, and would feel less drive to express this or identify with it in a way to say "this is who I am," or represent it in an artistic form. Not suggesting 8s can't be artists, just explaining the compulsion for _expression_ that 4s have, whether its artistic or not. To an 8 "self" is what they do, to me, "self" is a potential symbol or a message. But that doesn't make it less real.




> Once again that is your personal account. My darker days were confused & unclear. When I tried to pick my disintegration-inspired works apart I was unable to come to a conclusion.


I first encountered enneagram during disintegration, and at that time my mind was more muddled as well. I mistyped at 5 because at the time, I felt like a disembodied mind and my fear was being useless & incapable, due to having lost my faculties to an illness. I also saw the 8 and 7 in me, and the 4, and at the time didn't know about tritype, so I assumed 5w4 with lines to 8 and 7 made the most sense. I doubt many people would type themselves properly just based on disintegration. It's more about viewing it in retrospect as part of the greater scheme of your whole life.




> As you can quite clearly see, @_Animal_, I'm riding the context band wagon now & I'll ride it over every out-of-context thing I happen to happen upon. Or am I just hungry? Hmm what could the context of this rant be I wonder?


I think you are asking me why I ranted in the first place? So I will tell you.

Marilyn Manson has tremendous lows and highs. He is extreme. He is a good example of the glory and the humanity of any tritype, and his tritype happens to be 485. The rejection of that icon in favor of Gandalf (who, if I were to type him, 845 is the last thing that would come to mind..lol) ... just had me laughing so hard that I decided to comment. Normally I wouldn't bother, because if I were to take on the army of people who think being an 845 tritype makes them God/Satan, I would be on PerC 24/7 and never write my book, and I still wouldn't make a dent in the misconception.... but being that I respect your intelligence and the person that you are, and I am even apt to learn from your counter-arguments because they tend to make me think, it was an attractive opportunity to air my thoughts about the myths I see about this tritype, and to quell my urge to attempt to bring it down to earth a little. 

458 is an extremely common mistype... and I believe it's due to the stereotypes and glorification of each type. Glorification, aka "Unhealthy 8s are evil dictators who always have power and have no feelings!/ Integrated 8s are compassionate as 2s but not needy, and heroic protectors with impenetrable strength and unearthly beautiful carnality!" Or... "Unhealthy 4s are depressed cutters and heroin addicts/ integrated 4s are magical artists made of fairy dust with music and art spilling from their pores" Or.. "unhealthy 5s are reclusive socially awkward bizarre freaks living in piles of books/ integrated 5s are brilliant masterminds!" ... I have encountered extreme stereotypes for other types, but not nearly as often or as pervasive as these. Such trends end up building up until I cannot help but take this down a notch when I see a blaring example of it.


----------



## Entropic

Oak said:


> He painted sparrows yellow & sold them as canaries to get by.


I wasn't asking about what he did IRL. I was asking how his intellectual content reflect the mentality of an iconoclast, that his mindset is one of an iconoclast since you after all types him as 458, and I previously attributed the 458 as having a mentality of an iconoclast.



Animal said:


> Marilyn Manson has tremendous lows and highs. He is extreme. He is a good example of the glory and the humanity of any tritype, and his tritype happens to be 485.


I agree with that he's a 485 and a good example of the tritype in my opinion. In retrospect it makes sense that during my lower times in life, I related to him and his music so much. It spoke to me so profoundly because it described my world in a way I couldn't voice myself (ironically, that is also the purpose of his music if you ask him about it). This is what people need to see when they consider 458. Sure, it's "dark", but the darkness isn't that which is projected but the pain that is felt inside and how one feels rejected by the world. Again, King Kill 33 so clearly represents this to me. It covers everything about the 458 despite being such a short song. It first gives a sense of anxiety (Is this what you wanted?) and intellectualization of the situation (this is the result of your actions), goes on to move towards a 4-ish lamentation (you never accepted or treated me fair, you never gave me a chance to be me or even a fucking chance just to be) to end in a final grand 8 fanfare (I shall now help you to kill the king, I am not sorry/this is what you deserve). It may be an example of how the tritype looks like at the lower health levels but that's why it's profound to me. I know what it is like. That kind of thinking. That mentality. What it feels like. What it is. I don't succumb so much to this logic anymore but when I feel hurt and low? Yes. Completely. I plotted various ideas of how I was going to kill my stepmother when I still lived at home and felt she made my life a hell and this was exactly the kind of logic that drove me mentally.


> The rejection of that icon in favor of Gandalf (who, if I were to type him, 845 is the last thing that would come to mind..lol) ...


Gandalf will always be a shining beacon of type 1 to me.

Though, from a different perspective, 459 is also a very common mistype. As is triple id and to a degree, triple reactive, but yet we don't complain about that as much as we do 458. I think I have a right to complain when I see people in this thread posting stuff that I cannot relate to in terms of motivation though, because I after all know this tritype more than most being my tritype.

Last but not least, I also got a lot of comments that I couldn't be a 5w4 or even less so 458. I was a CP6, I was a 5 with a 1 fix, or I was a 4w5. Most people still seem to think I'm a 4w5 since that's the most alternative type they suggest if I were to ask people about it. I don't know why. The more I have learned about myself in terms of enneagram, the more I have come to realize how 4 is not a very strong motivation after all, despite that I for a long time considered it as an option for potential core. It feels very distant, especially compared to 8. Whether it makes me an integrated 5 or not I don't know though /shrug.


----------



## Entropic

As a sidenote, my gut tell me Gurdjieff was 9-fixed or had some strong 9 influence in him as opposed to 8, though I would need to look more into the man's life to make any solid conclusions.


----------



## Animal

ephemereality said:


> I agree with that he's a 485 and a good example of the tritype in my opinion. In retrospect it makes sense that during my lower times in life,* I related to him and his music so much. It spoke to me so profoundly because it described my world in a way I couldn't voice myself (ironically, that is also the purpose of his music if you ask him about it). *This is what people need to see when they consider 458. Sure, it's "dark", but the darkness isn't that which is projected but the pain that is felt inside and how one feels rejected by the world. Again, King Kill 33 so clearly represents this to me. It covers everything about the 458 despite being such a short song. It first gives a sense of anxiety (Is this what you wanted?) and intellectualization of the situation (this is the result of your actions), goes on to move towards a 4-ish lamentation (you never accepted or treated me fair, you never gave me a chance to be me or even a fucking chance just to be) to end in a final grand 8 fanfare (I shall now help you to kill the king, I am not sorry/this is what you deserve). It may be an example of how the tritype looks like at the lower health levels but that's why it's profound to me. I know what it is like. That kind of thinking. That mentality. What it feels like. What it is. I don't succumb so much to this logic anymore but when I feel hurt and low? Yes. Completely. I plotted various ideas of how I was going to kill my stepmother when I still lived at home and felt she made my life a hell and this was exactly the kind of logic that drove me mentally.


You hit the nail on the head here. As a 4 that is the purpose of my music if you ask me about it, too. I experience myself as a vessel through which sentiments emerge which ideally would serve as a mirror for others too. I've pasted this in a billion threads lately, but this is something I wrote in my type-me thread when 4 was not even in consideration. However now that I understand more about the type, I think it captures type 4 mentality [as well as 487 "messenger"] very well:


* *




On a deeper level, I live to expose my true self through my work. I feel I’m a vessel through which songs and stories emerge. The content serves as a mirror. It exposes parts of myself that are buried deep within my subconscious, and which might otherwise remain unnoticed. In sharing my work, I hope to function as a mirror for others. What success means, to me, is knowing that my fight to sing on my album, despite speaking in a whisper, has inspired someone else to create her own artwork. Success is hearing someone quote my lyrics or reference my stories because it expresses something SHE is feeling. I want people to see themselves in my work, rather than merely seeing “me.” I want to touch on something universal. And, through bearing my own soul, I hope to inspire others to express themselves honestly, and to pursue their dreams against all odds. 




This is exactly what I meant about 4s viewing themselves as symbols. The other points you touched on about 5 and 8 are apt as well. 

Marilyn Manson also spoke my thoughts at dark times; I listened to Manson almost exclusively for the first two years of my disintegration. Similarly, Tea Party / Jeff Martin voices my thoughts, and that is why I listen to Tea Party almost exclusively lately, classical music being the only alternative. That is also why he gives me hope and inspires me to be better. Because he emphasizes the darkness as well as being a beacon of hope. He brings my dreams and visions to life, therefore I can bring those same dreams to life. Such acknowledgement of the darker truths of ourselves can be inspiring and even inspire us to transcend.



> Gandalf will always be a shining beacon of type 1 to me.


If I were forced to type him I would probably choose 1 as well, though I find his typing to be problematic.



> Though, from a different perspective, 459 is also a very common mistype. As is triple id and to a degree, triple reactive, but yet we don't complain about that as much as we do 458. I think I have a right to complain when I see people in this thread posting stuff that I cannot relate to in terms of motivation though, because I after all know this tritype more than most being my tritype.


There are lots of mistypes for sure. It's more the nature in which these types are addressed that stands out to me. 



> Last but not least, I also got a lot of comments that I couldn't be a 5w4 or even less so 458. I was a CP6, I was a 5 with a 1 fix, or I was a 4w5. Most people still seem to think I'm a 4w5 since that's the most alternative type they suggest if I were to ask people about it. I don't know why. The more I have learned about myself in terms of enneagram, the more I have come to realize how 4 is not a very strong motivation after all, despite that I for a long time considered it as an option for potential core. It feels very distant, especially compared to 8. Whether it makes me an integrated 5 or not I don't know though /shrug.


Yeah.. when I first met you I considered 4w5 as well, but having seen you around forum and talking to you in real time, I cannot possibly see you as a 4w5.

People are going to throw accusations around, especially when it comes to the 'cherished types' of N-dominant or 4, 5, and 8. In a way, on a forum community one is lucky if they don't fall into these type categories so that every thread you post on isn't just about accusing you of being mistyped. It usually ends up going beyond type-suggestions for these specific types, whereas with other types, people might make suggestions but they don't tend to assume that you're typing that way 'to be cool.' So many people have assumed my motive for typing at a certain type is 'to be cool' and I find it hilarious because I have never valued 'cool' or belonging to the 'in-crowd' and beyond that, it just shows how ridiculous these stereotypes are, that one type should be seen as cool and heroic while others should be seen as pathetic.. etc.

Edit: In a thread recently where we were debating a little about my functions, you were probably the ONLY person who did not even once accuse me of typing a certain way because it's "cool" or because I wished to be that type or attribute some type of glory to that type over the other types, and I appreciate that. @_ephemereality_ Most people simply get stuck on the idea that people are typing a certain way because those are the glorified types, and I think it's projection; unless they have a solid case for this claim, it says more about them than the person who is typed or mistyped.


----------



## Entropic

Animal said:


> You hit the nail on the head here. As a 4 that is the purpose of my music if you ask me about it, too. I experience myself as a vessel through which sentiments emerge which ideally would serve as a mirror for others too. I've pasted this in a billion threads lately, but this is something I wrote in my type-me thread when 4 was not even in consideration. However now that I understand more about the type, I think it captures type 4 mentality [as well as 487 "messenger"] very well:
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On a deeper level, I live to expose my true self through my work. I feel I’m a vessel through which songs and stories emerge. The content serves as a mirror. It exposes parts of myself that are buried deep within my subconscious, and which might otherwise remain unnoticed. In sharing my work, I hope to function as a mirror for others. What success means, to me, is knowing that my fight to sing on my album, despite speaking in a whisper, has inspired someone else to create her own artwork. Success is hearing someone quote my lyrics or reference my stories because it expresses something SHE is feeling. I want people to see themselves in my work, rather than merely seeing “me.” I want to touch on something universal. And, through bearing my own soul, I hope to inspire others to express themselves honestly, and to pursue their dreams against all odds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is exactly what I meant about 4s viewing themselves as symbols. The other points you touched on about 5 and 8 are apt as well.
> 
> Marilyn Manson also spoke my thoughts at dark times; I listened to Manson almost exclusively for the first two years of my disintegration. Similarly, Tea Party / Jeff Martin voices my thoughts, and that is why I listen to Tea Party almost exclusively lately, classical music being the only alternative. That is also why he gives me hope and inspires me to be better. Because he emphasizes the darkness as well as being a beacon of hope. He brings my dreams and visions to life, therefore I can bring those same dreams to life. Such acknowledgement of the darker truths of ourselves can be inspiring and even inspire us to transcend.


My art serves a similar purpose I suppose. It's more for my own sake that I write than it is for others though. I need a channel where I can express myself properly exactly the way I see it without having to force it to fit some ideal or standard that is super-imposed that will taint its original image. It's easier doing this with art because art doesn't need to live up to any specific standard more than the creator imposes on it. 



> If I were forced to type him I would probably choose 1 as well, though I find his typing to be problematic.


Well, all of Tolkien's characters are problematic because they are quite shallowly written (no offense to Tolkien fans but they are). It's thus difficult to type any character beyond some archetype impression of them. My memory is more based off how he appeared in the movies than he did in the books. I rarely remember the books. In the movies we was very 1 to me. 



> There are lots of mistypes for sure. It's more the nature in which these types are addressed that stands out to me.


Well, it's true that people don't seem to openly idealize say, 459, but I think it says something about the actual nature of the 458 that it is something people react to. Though it's only double reactive as opposed to triple, it is still a very reactionary type and I think people perhaps react to that itself more. In contrast 459 is very subdued. I can't imagine a 458 that would not cause some form of reaction in others and people. It's almost inherent in the tritype because of being double withdrawn, double power-seeking and double reactive. It vacillates more between extreme states and this is naturally going to make people react. 



> Yeah.. when I first met you I considered 4w5 as well, but having seen you around forum and talking to you in real time, I cannot possibly see you as a 4w5.


Wasn't necessarily thinking of you as so much the other people on this forum. 



> People are going to throw accusations around, especially when it comes to the 'cherished types' of N-dominant or 4, 5, and 8. In a way, on a forum community one is lucky if they don't fall into these type categories so that every thread you post on isn't just about accusing you of being mistyped. It usually ends up going beyond type-suggestions for these specific types, whereas with other types, people might make suggestions but they don't tend to assume that you're typing that way 'to be cool.' So many people have assumed my motive for typing at a certain type is 'to be cool' and I find it hilarious because I have never valued 'cool' or belonging to the 'in-crowd' and beyond that, it just shows how ridiculous these stereotypes are, that one type should be seen as cool and heroic while others should be seen as pathetic.. etc.
> 
> Edit: In a thread recently where we were debating a little about my functions, you were probably the ONLY person who did not even once accuse me of typing a certain way because it's "cool" or because I wished to be that type or attribute some type of glory to that type over the other types, and I appreciate that. @_ephemereality_ Most people simply get stuck on the idea that people are typing a certain way because those are the glorified types, and I think it's projection; unless they have a solid case for this claim, it says more about them than the person who is typed or mistyped.


I know you are genuine in your soul search so I would never do that. I could say many things about you but dishonest is not of them.


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## Animal

ephemereality said:


> My art serves a similar purpose I suppose. It's more for my own sake that I write than it is for others though. I need a channel where I can express myself properly exactly the way I see it without having to force it to fit some ideal or standard that is super-imposed that will taint its original image. It's easier doing this with art because art doesn't need to live up to any specific standard more than the creator imposes on it.


Exactly. In my art I lay myself bare. Later in life, it occurred to me: Alone, we are all One. (Or, Alone, we are all Øne.) This gave me the feeling that my personal, honest, bare, naked expression had its place within the cosmos. It was serving a symbol of this nakedness, this raw humanity, something that others may relate to.

Hence moving from envy of a better world where I belong, and solitude ===> to equanimity and Holy Origin.




> Well, all of Tolkien's characters are problematic because they are quite shallowly written (no offense to Tolkien fans but they are). It's thus difficult to type any character beyond some archetype impression of them. My memory is more based off how he appeared in the movies than he did in the books. I rarely remember the books. In the movies we was very 1 to me.


 I agree. The characters are 1-dimensional. I love Tolkein but I see it for what it is. The different species are like symbols of different sides of us, perhaps. But the personal examples are rather idealized, black and white. Even the characters with complexities, it's very generalized. However the movie actor did play it as a healthy 1, I would agree.



> Well, it's true that people don't seem to openly idealize say, 459, but I think it says something about the actual nature of the 458 that it is something people react to. Though it's only double reactive as opposed to triple, it is still a very reactionary type and I think people perhaps react to that itself more. In contrast 459 is very subdued. I can't imagine a 458 that would not cause some form of reaction in others and people. It's almost inherent in the tritype because of being double withdrawn, double power-seeking and double reactive. It vacillates more between extreme states and this is naturally going to make people react.


This is a good point. But 468, realistically, would be equally likely to cause conflict. Or 614. 613. even 268, 261. Average 1s and 6s can be very confrontational. Unhealthy 2s move to 8. Etc. But you don't see this type of attention being paid to these other types or tritypes which are potentially equally extreme, loud and reactive. Super-ego types on the whole can be very attached to their opinions and very outspoken about it. Social types in general. 531's. etc.



> Wasn't necessarily thinking of you as so much the other people on this forum.


Yeah I figured. Was just throwing in my commentary. 




> I know you are genuine in your soul search so I would never do that. I could say many things about you but dishonest is not of them.


I appreciate that. It is true, I could say many things about myself and my faults as well, but if there's anything I know, it's that I'm as honest as I possibly can be.


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## Animal

How could I possibly leave this out: 7w8, regardless of the rest of the tritype, variants, or health levels, is going to be opinionated, attention-grabbing and basking in the mental stimulation of conflict and the brilliant points they are making. Or at least I have yet to meet one who isn't. That's why it competes with 2w3 as my favorite archetype. I see no case for a 548 being more opinionated and outspoken about it than a core 7w8 in a general, archetypal sense. Naturally every individual is different, but 7w8 as a core lends itself to the type of intellectual conflicts that would occur on a forum.

7w6 can be equally provocative, but on the whole, more likely to back down than 7w8s.

But people insist on seeing 7s as happy fluffy bunnies with no sense of organization. Their loss I guess. On PerC, this archetype does not get nearly the acknowledgement it deserves for its true nature - faults and assets alike. In my opinion 7s are the most lovable bratty feisty argumentative intellectual brutes of the enneagram.  I say "intellectual brutes" because 7s love to tout their intellect punch for punch whereas 5s put it on reserve for power; but 7s have that line to 5, to organize their thinking and use it for power. 7s also have that righteous, blaring line to 1, driving them to prove a point because they think it is correct. 7s are just as mind-driven as 5s, but more motivated to be outward about it; to spew out their many many gluttonous thoughts, and to enjoy an argument whether they win or lose, because it gives them something to mull over and keeps their mind active. Due to being part of the idealization triad (471) they are driven by ideals and likely to want to spout those ideals as part of their way of life. Intellectual argument is stimulation a chance to show off, _and_ a chance to draw others into their ideals. By its very nature, it is attractive to 7s, and 7s tend to provoke and attract argument.. as well as attention.

Unfortunately, most people on this forum don't understand what type 7 is really about, so most real 7s mistype at some other number, and most people who type at 7 don't realize that the stereotype of 7 (which they relate to) has very little to do with what 7 really is.

Point being, when I see someone with a highly individualistic stance who is drawing attention to themselves by arguing about it, the first thing I think is "7" or "cp-6" long before 548 would cross my mind.


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## Entropic

Animal said:


> I agree. The characters are 1-dimensional. I love Tolkein but I see it for what it is. The different species are like symbols of different sides of us, perhaps. But the personal examples are rather idealized, black and white. Even the characters with complexities, it's very generalized. However the movie actor did play it as a healthy 1, I would agree.


Well, yes, in a sense. The characters and the struggles were more vehicles of the metaphors he wanted to express in the fight of good and evil more than being characters with complex personalities questioning the idea of morality and what is good and bad. For that he would have needed to write a much more complex story. And yes, Gandalf in the film is a good example of an integrated 1 to me, especially past his reincarnation as Gandalf White. When type 1 is controlled by its superego influence it's not morally pure though they think they can be if they over-identify with it. The moral purity occurs when it can learn to let go of that need for control. 



> This is a good point. But 468, realistically, would be equally likely to cause conflict. Or 614. 613. even 268, 261. Average 1s and 6s can be very confrontational. Unhealthy 2s move to 8. Etc. But you don't see this type of attention being paid to these other types or tritypes which are potentially equally extreme, loud and reactive. Super-ego types on the whole can be very attached to their opinions and very outspoken about it. Social types in general. 531's. etc.


Sure, but people don't put any social status on those types. If we would, I think we would see a similar development though. As for type 2, I think they would prefer to still be low-key if they could. Margaery from Game of Thrones is a type 2 with an 8 fix. Her power-lust is so strong she's like a cat playing with its prey, yet she looks so cute and innocent. 



Animal said:


> How could I possibly leave this out: 7w8, regardless of the rest of the tritype, variants, or health levels, is going to be opinionated, attention-grabbing and basking in the mental stimulation of conflict and the brilliant points they are making. Or at least I have yet to meet one who isn't. That's why it competes with 2w3 as my favorite archetype. I see no case for a 548 being more opinionated and outspoken about it than a core 7w8 in a general, archetypal sense. Naturally every individual is different, but 7w8 as a core lends itself to the type of intellectual conflicts that would occur on a forum.
> 
> 7w6 can be equally provocative, but on the whole, more likely to back down than 7w8s.
> 
> But people insist on seeing 7s as happy fluffy bunnies with no sense of organization. Their loss I guess. On PerC, this archetype does not get nearly the acknowledgement it deserves for its true nature - faults and assets alike. In my opinion 7s are the most lovable bratty feisty argumentative intellectual brutes of the enneagram.  I say "intellectual brutes" because 7s love to tout their intellect punch for punch whereas 5s put it on reserve for power; but 7s have that line to 5, to organize their thinking and use it for power. 7s also have that righteous, blaring line to 1, driving them to prove a point because they think it is correct. 7s are just as mind-driven as 5s, but more motivated to be outward about it; to spew out their many many gluttonous thoughts, and to enjoy an argument whether they win or lose, because it gives them something to mull over and keeps their mind active. Due to being part of the idealization triad (471) they are driven by ideals and likely to want to spout those ideals as part of their way of life. Intellectual argument is stimulation a chance to show off, _and_ a chance to draw others into their ideals. By its very nature, it is attractive to 7s, and 7s tend to provoke and attract argument.. as well as attention.
> 
> Unfortunately, most people on this forum don't understand what type 7 is really about, so most real 7s mistype at some other number, and most people who type at 7 don't realize that the stereotype of 7 (which they relate to) has very little to do with what 7 really is.
> 
> Point being, when I see someone with a highly individualistic stance who is drawing attention to themselves by arguing about it, the first thing I think is "7" or "cp-6" long before 548 would cross my mind.


I don't think the point about 458 is to be opinionated or outspoken per se either way. The point is more to destroy that which is seen as untainted or sacred by showing that it is not, because the truth is that it is as filthy as the rest of the world. It's more a matter of questioning and presenting alternatives than it is for the sake of having an opinion because the truth is that if this is _my _reality, then so it must be yours because clearly the world cannot be split between two alternate dimensions we simultaneously happened to inhabit. Type 6 is a type that can hold an opinion for the sake of it. A type 5 not so much in contrast. A 5 would first need to understand why that opinion is important in the first place. A 6 doesn't need that kind of reasoning. That whatever they are holding an opinion about is seen as dangerous to them is sufficient.


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## Entropic

Sixty Nein said:


> There is nothing much to say, it is just rather ambiguous if it really is like that or not with me. I'd think it is something that there inside of you innately but there is a lot of defenses against it. It is basic spiritual shit really. I think that is something that would be more universal than this tritype though.


Maybe, but the mentality surrounding it does seem pervasive to it from what I have observed.


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## MorbidNerd

Another 548 here (recently discovered this about myself, having previously mistyped).


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## tanstaafl28

ephemereality said:


> Do any of you experience a strong sense of loss and a sense of being stuck in purgatory, having lost faith in that there can never be true meaning or happiness in life because as soon as you think you found it, it's being snatched away from you, yet you feel compelled to keep searching for it because you don't know what else to do?


Stop searching for meaning. Make your own. Then nobody can take it away unless you give them permission to do so. 

Trust me, it gets better once you're older.


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## Entropic

tanstaafl28 said:


> Stop searching for meaning. Make your own. Then nobody can take it away unless you give them permission to do so.
> 
> Trust me, it gets better once you're older.


What? I was looking for commonality in experience and the cause for that, not being told wtf I am supposed to think or do.


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## tanstaafl28

ephemereality said:


> What? I was looking for commonality in experience and the cause for that, not being told wtf I am supposed to think or do.



Good for you then. Sorry for interrupting your whole "despair" thing.


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## kwarling

Hahahaha. Another 458 watches from the outside, amused by the exchange in a metafiction sort of way, and gladly stores the information deep into their brain to continue their inner map of the psychological human genome.


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## Entropic

tanstaafl28 said:


> Good for you then. Sorry for interrupting your whole "despair" thing.


I get it, I'm an existential nihilist, but I was interested in exploring tritype mechanics hence I posted in this thread about it, not being told life advice.


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## tanstaafl28

ephemereality said:


> I get it, I'm an existential nihilist, but I was interested in exploring tritype mechanics hence I posted in this thread about it, not being told life advice.


I'll leave you to it, then.


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## MorbidNerd

ephemereality said:


> Do any of you experience a strong sense of loss and a sense of being stuck in purgatory, having lost faith in that there can never be true meaning or happiness in life because as soon as you think you found it, it's being snatched away from you, yet you feel compelled to keep searching for it because you don't know what else to do?



If I understand you correctly, though I could very well be misinterpreting your meaning, I definitely experienced this when I was younger. I think I may have a rather unusual childhood experience however as I grew up in a very religious family (their community could easily be described as a cult) and was very very isolated from outside influences (no access to a library or the internet, was pulled out of public school for being seen speaking to known atheists and sent to a religious school for troublemakers etc). To put it plainly I was brainwashed and had little to no knowledge of anything that existed outside of those beliefs. 
Though I had serious philosophical disagreements regarding the interpretation of those beliefs with my family and others from the community and was a black sheep from day one, I nevertheless did believe in that system and saw a very clear purpose for myself and the meaning of my life. When I finally came to my senses in adolescence and realised the extent to which I had been manipulated and fed lies, it felt like I was travelling through hell (though a hell created by society), but the flames burned away the illusions and instead of destroying me, turned my sense of loss into intense rage. 
I definitely relate to the idea of the 'iconoclast', I not only attacked the beliefs I had grown up with but also destroyed religious items and had intended at one point (as I was in a very dark place and could not see another way out from under these people's control at the time) fully intended to kill a number of individuals for what they had done (if it is any indication of the suffocating control enacted by these people - a classmate of mine later did infact do just that). 
It took time to break out of the underlying mindset I had grown up with even after having fully rejecting that particular religious system, I initially went through a period of searching for alternatives to replace the emptiness I felt I had been left with (investigated various other religions and flirted with Satanism and Asatru for brief periods and later politics). I am far more stable now than I was back then, I suppose I would now consider myself to be an existential nihilist.

It is interesting that you previously mentioned Marilyn Manson, he became something of an inspiration to me during that time and his music helped me get through some very dark days when I felt completely alone. I had particularly related to the lyrics of King Kill 33. Manson is the only music artist from my younger days (though back then it was contraband and I could not actually own his albums) whom I still listen to today.


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## Cryoshakespeare

Right, 5w4 4w5 8w7 here. In my opinion, a lot of people here have over-accentuated the "darkness" of this archetype. Dark dark dark depressed nihilist. I'll admit that at times nihilism can overcome my intent and esoteric pragmatism, but most of the time I take a very cynical and amused approach to ideas of the meaning of life. What I think has been underrepresented in this thread were the ideas relating to creation of "maps" and the curiosity in what makes people tick. I saw other dominant-5's here, but it seems perhaps that being dominant 5 alone does not mean being a relatively progressive-minded member of this archetype. What I think is causing this sense of division between myself and you fellow 458's is that I have a substantially integrated 4 aspect. I am very comfortable with my deep and sorrowful emotions, and they no longer fuel (to a huge extent at least) negative thought cycles in my mind. Rather, now I use my emotional and intellectual understanding of sorrows in life in tandem to understand others and show them the maps that I have created to find my way out of these dark places. I still have yet to integrate my 5 aspect and my 8 aspect, and this has hindered me in pursuing my fascination in neuropsychology, particularly in that I am disinclined to study if the information does not interest me. I certainly can relate to the intensity of this archetype, in fact I'm well known for in general being the most intense person many people have ever met. And it is a kind of introverted intensity, at times I have an almost psychopathic playfulness in getting to understand what makes my friends tick. It is good to see my fellow archetypal brethren here, and hopefully we shall come to understand this archetype in a much deeper and more precise sense via keen reflection and unbiased exploration of the facts and our viewpoints


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## Cryoshakespeare

Well, after having staked my claim and attempted to sound like an intellectual superior, I'll now ask a question of actual interest. What think ye 458's of romantic relationships?


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## kwarling

JJ4000 said:


> Right, 5w4 4w5 8w7 here. In my opinion, a lot of people here have over-accentuated the "darkness" of this archetype. Dark dark dark depressed nihilist. I'll admit that at times nihilism can overcome my intent and esoteric pragmatism, but most of the time I take a very cynical and amused approach to ideas of the meaning of life. *What I think has been underrepresented in this thread were the ideas relating to creation of "maps" and the curiosity in what makes people tick.* I saw other dominant-5's here, but it seems perhaps that being dominant 5 alone does not mean being a relatively progressive-minded member of this archetype. What I think is causing this sense of division between myself and you fellow 458's is that I have a substantially integrated 4 aspect. I am very comfortable with my deep and sorrowful emotions, and they no longer fuel (to a huge extent at least) negative thought cycles in my mind. Rather, now I use my emotional and intellectual understanding of sorrows in life in tandem to understand others and show them the maps that I have created to find my way out of these dark places. I still have yet to integrate my 5 aspect and my 8 aspect, and this has hindered me in pursuing my fascination in neuropsychology, particularly in that I am disinclined to study if the information does not interest me. I certainly can relate to the intensity of this archetype, in fact I'm well known for in general being the most intense person many people have ever met. And it is a kind of introverted intensity, at times I have an almost psychopathic playfulness in getting to understand what makes my friends tick. It is good to see my fellow archetypal brethren here, *and hopefully we shall come to understand this archetype in a much deeper and more precise sense via keen reflection and unbiased exploration of the facts and our viewpoints*


Very true, that. Could you explain 'intensity', and how you are an 'intense person'? I've always only intuitively understood the meaning of that, and I'd like to see other people's perceptions of what it is to be an intense person.


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## Entropic

@kwarling Rust Cohle from True Detective. Even characters in the show admit that he's very darkly intense. I think his intensity is heightened through his dominant sexual instinct though. And yes, 458s like to figure out what makes people tick and I also think a lot of them are great or should be great at finding people's sore spots and know how to tickle it in order to make people break down.


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## Swordsman of Mana

@OP
dafuq is "scholarly" about an 8 fix? imo, the Scholar would be more 145, 146 or 135. I'm not a huge fan of typewatch, but they call this tritype "The Demon" which, imo, fits much better.


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## Sixty Nein

Hahahaha. That would be a terrible idea.

Anyways am I grim-dark enough to be in the 458 club?


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## Entropic

Sixty Nein said:


> Hahahaha. That would be a terrible idea.
> 
> Anyways am I grim-dark enough to be in the 458 club?


Sorry son, but no. Unless you are claiming that inner troll of yours is of a particularly malicious kind. Soul eater?

As to why they call this one "the scholar", I assume Fauvres ran out of cool names to give lol. The 145 is called the philosopher, so. Not sure what is philosophical about 145 but whatever. Katherine seems to come up with names from her arse.


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## MorbidNerd

JJ4000 said:


> Well, after having staked my claim and attempted to sound like an intellectual superior, I'll now ask a question of actual interest. What think ye 458's of romantic relationships?


Personally speaking, romantic relationships are too complicated and not worth the amount of time, effort, and so forth that they would require of me (though that said, when I did fall for someone, I fell hard). I am not good with any kind of relationship, even maintaining a friendship can be difficult for me as I need far too much space and alone time to maintain an internal equilibrium compared to other people. Not to mention trust issues, selfishness, boredom, and having very little in the way of empathy. Emotions are not something I do or receive well.


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## Entropic

I crave romantic relationships personally. I need the connection. I also would say I have pretty good interpersonal skills but I just don't give much of a fuck. My issue is more about finding people I connect with than being bad at speaking to people or maintaining relationships per se. I find that when you find people you connect with maintaining those relationships isn't a problem.


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## tanstaafl28

ephemereality said:


> What? I was looking for commonality in experience and the cause for that, not being told wtf I am supposed to think or do.


I forgot to mention, I'm a 5-8-4.


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## Bricolage

ephemereality said:


> Sorry son, but no. Unless you are claiming that inner troll of yours is of a particularly malicious kind. Soul eater?
> 
> As to why they call this one "the scholar", I assume Fauvres ran out of cool names to give lol. The 145 is called the philosopher, so. Not sure what is philosophical about 145 but whatever. Katherine seems to come up with names from her arse.


I thought 145 was researcher and 146 was philosopher.* I'm the pedant apparently.

*I realize these names are somewhat arbitrary. :laughing:


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