# The paranormal side of the world



## dizzygirl (Dec 19, 2009)

So i was watching *The exorcism of Emily rose* yesterday and it came to me again that we have no strong proof of the spirit realm _not existing. _ Most people are skeptical about ghosts or spirits or existence of the human spirit/soul in some form. 
People are skeptical about *ESP (extrasensory perception)*, about simple things like dream manipulation or precognition.
In case of Anneliese Michel (the girl on whose exorcism the movie of Emily Rose was based) the double voices and the use of ancient Armenian language were not enough proof of her being possessed. I guess I am just curious to know more about paranormal experiences that have taken place in real lives and whether it was proved scientifically that there were other reasons that held water.

The following link is an excerpt from a researched book by G.N.M. Tyrell.
Castle Arcana: Real Life Hauntings 
I would like to know what you make of this. and also if you believe in the existence of the paranormal. and if you don't then what do you think happened in the 5 stated studies?
Also, share links or stories that you might have come across.


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## Naama (Dec 5, 2010)

dizzygirl said:


> So i was watching *The exorcism of Emily rose* yesterday and it came to me again that we have no strong proof of the spirit realm _not existing. _


but the deal is that we got no proof that it does exist, but we do have proof that people could imagine such things.


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

dizzygirl said:


> So i was watching *The exorcism of Emily rose* yesterday and it came to me again that we have no strong proof of the spirit realm _not existing. _ Most people are skeptical about ghosts or spirits or existence of the human spirit/soul in some form. People are skeptical about *ESP (extrasensory perception)*, about simple things like dream manipulation or precognition.
> In case of Anneliese Michel (the girl on whose exorcism the movie of Emily Rose was based) the double voices and the use of ancient Armenian language were not enough proof of her being possessed.


I actually have the book about Anneliese Michel (and read it before the movie ever got made); the lady who wrote the biography of that story was an anthropologist who studied trance states in central american voodoo practices, and the brain waves that accompany them, and her idea was that Anneliese's expression of herself as possessed by the devil was her way of putting herself in various trance states that would eventually result in a cure for herself... but unfortunately, her body was too weak and gave out. 

They actually wrote the author into the movie as a character -- the primary witness near the end of the courtroom scenes. 



> I guess I am just curious to know more about paranormal experiences that have taken place in real lives and whether it was proved scientifically that there were other reasons that held water.


I have a lot of books on exorcism I have collected over the years, and I also studied it some within the realm of Christian evangelist circles. I have yet to see any conclusive evidence that any of it is true. Obviously SOMETHING is happening, but we can't show that an other-planar being even exists, let alone is capable of taking over the body of a human being. And that goes for much of the paranormal (a subject I was fascinated by starting by age 10.... I devoured the entire public library of its paranormal section and loved In Search Of and other shows).

I can't really comment on the stories presented by this book. I think it's interesting to see it was written by an engineer who became interested in the paranormal, which is helpful. But there is no way to replicate or reexamine these particular stories, and we already know how inaccurate perception can be; we often see what we want to. (This is why cold reading used by modern day fraudulent psychics is so effective; what looks one way and quite organic is actually a very conscious use of one's perceptive and persuasive abilities to portray a falsehood.) Here, we do not get any alternate perceptions of these stories, just one particular view; and so we cannot triangulate upon the events in the question in a way that helps us clarify what actually occurred.

Anyway, I don't know what I believe myself. I'm still fascinated by such things, but I'm skeptical as well that I'll ever find a clear-cut case of a haunting or other phenomena... and if I did, realistically others would not experience it and therefore disbelieve me in turn. 



Naama said:


> but the deal is that we got no proof that it does exist


Yeah, there is nothing proven nor disproven.


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## dizzygirl (Dec 19, 2009)

@Jennywocky Mostly that is what i wanted to know. if there is any proof of otherworldly existence not existing.The movie stated something about Gambutrol creating a barrier for the exorcism to not take place effectively. also the thing about the two voice boxes was quite fascinating. i just have so many questions regarding all of this so it's kinda hard to phrase and is getting stuck on this one case.
i am quite amazed you could study this extensively. where i live, the opportunity never rises. i also wanted to know about witchcraft and wiccan powers. I saw an interview with quite a famous witch here once who said that she had controlled the weather to get out of some unwanted meeting.
It just fascinates me. All this. I guess i don't exactly have questions. i just want to know more. so **ANY** article relating to anything paranormal would be amazing.
the link on that Castle Arcana thing was interesting but even i thought there is no way for us to back this up.
@Naama could you name some of the books on the paranormal?
also, coming to the point of believing and disbelieving, i'm pretty sure until it personally happens to each and every person, there will always be room for doubt.


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

dizzygirl said:


> @_Jennywocky_ Mostly that is what i wanted to know. if there is any proof of otherworldly existence not existing.The movie stated something about Gambutrol creating a barrier for the exorcism to not take place effectively. also the thing about the two voice boxes was quite fascinating. i just have so many questions regarding all of this so it's kinda hard to phrase and is getting stuck on this one case.


The original case happened in Germany.

Now I want to reread the whole book, to trigger my recall!

But you're right, that's what messed up the exorcism... the drugs that were administered, because they modified the brain waves that she was supposedly using in order to work through her issue and prevented that work from occurring, resulting in her decline and death.

Anneliese Michel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Google page for "Anneliese Michel" also shows some images that look to actually be her during the weeks of the exorcism... they do look like they'd be a little disturbing to some people.

The book: 
Goodman, Felicitas D. (1981) _The Exorcism of Anneliese Michel_. Eugene: Resource Publications. ISBN 1-59752-432-8. 



> i am quite amazed you could study this extensively. where i live, the opportunity never rises.


I just checked your profile and saw that you live in India. The US definitely has a freer flow of information and easier access.

What I did to study it was go on eBay and Amazon and Bookfinder and find books dealing 
with exorcisms and the paranormal. I acquired quite a number of titles that way; I don't know how easy it is for you to do that, though, or what your cultural climate is and if that is allowed at all.



> i also wanted to know about witchcraft and wiccan powers. I saw an interview with quite a famous witch here once who said that she had controlled the weather to get out of some unwanted meeting.


I don't have a lot of hands-on experience with witches, although I have friends who are Wiccan. With them, it's less about magic and more about a way to view the world, I think. I wish I could actually witness magic or something paranormal; I want to understand and observe, but opportunities are few and far between.



> It just fascinates me. All this. I guess i don't exactly have questions. i just want to know more. so **ANY** article relating to anything paranormal would be amazing. the link on that Castle Arcana thing was interesting but even i thought there is no way for us to back this up.


Right now, I would recommend just to keep Googling on the internet and seeing what you come up with, using terms like "real life" or "factual" and things to try to grab cases and experiences that are documented rather than just the fables and old tales.

Do you have a current religious faith of your own that supports or excludes the supernatural, or are you pretty open?


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## dizzygirl (Dec 19, 2009)

@Jennywocky Well Hinduism states that you are a Hindu by consciousness. It's possibly the most lax religion and so i am very open to all ideas. I find theology, mythology, the paranormal, psychology and parascience very fascinating.
My curiousity with witchcraft was rekindled while reading Brida. I want to get to know about the whole tradition of the sun and the tradition of the moon personally. Someday i'm sure.
And as for anneliese's case, I saw the pictures. It is quite disturbing. odd. 
I often wonder if someone actually experienced something abnormal, how would the psychologist know if that's the truth or if the person is schizophrenic or hallucinating? is there any proper way to delineate between the two?
:tongue: Ordering books online is quite okay by my cultural climate  but the dollar transfer thing will be rather tedious. i will buy them from shops. it's cheaper there. thanx for the suggestions! ^^


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## Kriash (May 5, 2011)

I had a lot of paranormal experiences when I was younger, so I would say I believe in some type of spirits or something. When I was around 13 I had this whole theory about time and paranormal experiences that basically said time was structured so that two or more periods of time could bleed into each other, causing what seemed like paranormal activity. But of course, it wasn't well thought out, and had many holes in it.


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## dizzygirl (Dec 19, 2009)

Kriash said:


> I had a lot of paranormal experiences when I was younger, so I would say I believe in some type of spirits or something.


Can you elaborate? I am very interested. I have had something happen to me twice but they aren't related to the other realm. more like clairvoyance or precognition.


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## dizzygirl (Dec 19, 2009)

Kriash said:


> I had a lot of paranormal experiences when I was younger, so I would say I believe in some type of spirits or something.


Can you elaborate? i am very interested.


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## Sily (Oct 24, 2008)

To the OP, I have seen ghosts myself. It happened in a farmhouse I was living in during the 80s. I saw a man in a nite cap & long sleeping shirt, sleeping about ten feet off the ground. I could see through him. I also saw in that house a cat with a noose around it's neck hanging in the corner of the room & tennis shoes walking about 3 feet off the ground. When I was a young child my family says I reported seeing Mrs. Knight @ the whaleshead hunting club in corrola, North Carolina. The sightings are a different kind of feeling than a dream or hallucination. When it happens to you, you will know immediately what you are seeing.

There are many threads in the INFP forum about people who have seen & felt paranormal activity. You can read their experiences also.

My advice is this...if you want to experience paranormal activity in your life start to welcome it into your life. Do research on it. I do believe so much goes on beside us that we cannot see because of different vibrational energies. I cannot see radio or cell phone waves coming into my home yet the information is there.




I believe people can have astral attachments that are very bad. I hope that you do not have a bad experience with this. I always stayed away from inviting any satanism into my life, black witchcraft. I have never been hurt by any of the paranormal activity that surrounds me. You seem to be on a path I would not have taken, exorcisims & witchcraft, because I have the mindset that these things do exist.

I have many links to share with you and you can read and see where it takes you. Just be careful. Are you an INFJ, Kiersey says that type has an ability to see and feel the paranormal.


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## Kriash (May 5, 2011)

dizzygirl said:


> Can you elaborate? i am very interested.




Yeah. Sorry I was on my way out the door when I wrote that this morning.
When I was young I always saw this shadow person in our house. It blocked the hall leading from my bedroom into the living room quite often. I always got this really bad vibe every time I saw it, and I was always afraid to leave my room when no one else was around. I found that I was very unlike myself when I saw it too, normally I'm pretty fearless, but I was pretty terrified.

My mom tells this story of how once I started walking down the hall towards my room, and I just started shrieking, and I wouldn't stop, and I wouldn't tell her what happened when she ran to me to see what was wrong. I was probably 3 or 4. I think it may have had something to do with the shadow person I remember seeing later on in life, but I can't be certain.

There have been other incidences of different things as well, but I can't really remember them off the top of my head. That one has always been really clear however.


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## Naama (Dec 5, 2010)

dizzygirl said:


> @Naama could you name some of the books on the paranormal?
> also, coming to the point of believing and disbelieving, i'm pretty sure until it personally happens to each and every person, there will always be room for doubt.


i dunno any books about paranormal. but i suggest reading about DMT, an endogenous psychedelic that has been theorized to cause stuff like experiencing paranormal states, god, illusion of afterlife etc. that is likely to play a role in psychosis and schizophrenia


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## dizzygirl (Dec 19, 2009)

@Naama

"N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) is a naturally occurring psychedelic compound of the tryptamine family. DMT is found not only in several plants, but also in trace amounts in humans and other mammals, where it is originally derived from the essential amino acid tryptophan, and ultimately produced by the enzyme INMT during normal metabolism. *The natural function of its widespread presence remains undetermined.* Structurally, DMT is analogous to the neurotransmitter serotonin (5-HT), the hormone melatonin, and other psychedelic tryptamines, such as 5-MeO-DMT, bufotenin, and psilocin (the active metabolite of psilocybin).
Many cultures, indigenous and modern, ingest DMT as a psychedelic drug, in either extracted or synthesized forms.[5] When DMT is inhaled or consumed, depending on the dose, its subjective effects can range from short-lived milder psychedelic states to powerful immersive experiences, which include a total loss of connection to conventional reality, which may be so extreme that it becomes ineffable.[6] DMT is also the primary psychoactive in ayahuasca, an Amazonian Amerindian brew employed for divinatory and healing purposes. Pharmacologically, ayahuasca combines DMT with an MAOI, an enzyme inhibitor that allows DMT to be orally active."
If taken as a drug it leads to reality detached experiences. but that toh even a lot of other drugs do. that's not what i am asking.


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## dizzygirl (Dec 19, 2009)

Kriash said:


> Yeah. Sorry I was on my way out the door when I wrote that this morning.
> When I was young I always saw this shadow person in our house. It blocked the hall leading from my bedroom into the living room quite often. I always got this really bad vibe every time I saw it, and I was always afraid to leave my room when no one else was around. I found that I was very unlike myself when I saw it too, normally I'm pretty fearless, but I was pretty terrified.
> 
> My mom tells this story of how once I started walking down the hall towards my room, and I just started shrieking, and I wouldn't stop, and I wouldn't tell her what happened when she ran to me to see what was wrong. I was probably 3 or 4. I think it may have had something to do with the shadow person I remember seeing later on in life, but I can't be certain.
> ...


You have seen the same shadow figure again later on in life?


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## Naama (Dec 5, 2010)

dizzygirl said:


> @Naama
> 
> "N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) is a naturally occurring psychedelic compound of the tryptamine family. DMT is found not only in several plants, but also in trace amounts in humans and other mammals, where it is originally derived from the essential amino acid tryptophan, and ultimately produced by the enzyme INMT during normal metabolism. *The natural function of its widespread presence remains undetermined.* Structurally, DMT is analogous to the neurotransmitter serotonin (5-HT), the hormone melatonin, and other psychedelic tryptamines, such as 5-MeO-DMT, bufotenin, and psilocin (the active metabolite of psilocybin).
> Many cultures, indigenous and modern, ingest DMT as a psychedelic drug, in either extracted or synthesized forms.[5] When DMT is inhaled or consumed, depending on the dose, its subjective effects can range from short-lived milder psychedelic states to powerful immersive experiences, which include a total loss of connection to conventional reality, which may be so extreme that it becomes ineffable.[6] DMT is also the primary psychoactive in ayahuasca, an Amazonian Amerindian brew employed for divinatory and healing purposes. Pharmacologically, ayahuasca combines DMT with an MAOI, an enzyme inhibitor that allows DMT to be orally active."
> If taken as a drug it leads to reality detached experiences. but that toh even a lot of other drugs do. that's not what i am asking.


even tho its undetermined doesent mean that there is no info suggesting what role it might have. this sort of brain chemistry is really hard to study, especially since there are other factors concluding to schizophrenia also. because its so hard to study, there havent been enough proofs for it. some studies show that there is increased DMT values in urine of chronic schizophrenics, some studies show that only some of them have increased values of DMT. some studies suggest that its not necessarily the increased DMT value that is the main key on DMT interaction with schizophrenia, but lack of some DMT antagonist that causes greater effects of DMT. also since there are other neurotransmitters contributing to schizophrenia and DMT might not be the catalyst in all types of schizophrenia, it makes it even harder to determine if it plays a role in schizophrenia at all.

if DMT plays a role in paranormal experiences, its next to impossible to measure DMT values of those people as they are having the experience, since they would first of all have better non invasive technology to measure DMT values in real time and be able to spot the areas where it is effecting and they would need knowledge of what is the role of those areas that it is having its effect. the only way to measure DMT with current technology is to look at DMT values from urine and that doesent tell anything about its contribution to natural altered states of consciousness.

also there is the factor that mediation(praying is form of meditation and works the same way) modulates the activity of pineal gland, pineal gland is what has the building blocks for DMT. people who pray alot have stronger belief in god and people who meditate have stronger sense of self, this sort of gaining deep sense/understanding of self is also one of the effects of DMT(at least when taken as a drug).
Meditations on the Pineal Gland | Reality Sandwich

also there are loads of other stuff contributing to this.

-> natural function is undetermined, because its impossible to give low enough P-value to support this hypothesis due to lack of technology for scientifically valid research. P-value = value that determines the possibility of the hypothesis being false in scientific research.

this is pretty much the same thing as with believing in ghosts and such, you cant prove it right and neither can you prove it false. personally i think it would be idiotic to believe that this sort of things are certainly the truth or certainly false. neither can be proved wrong, but its more probable that ghosts and other paranormal is just malfunctioning in your brain activity.


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## Kriash (May 5, 2011)

dizzygirl said:


> You have seen the same shadow figure again later on in life?


I remember seeing it until we moved from that house. Probably around 7-8 years old.


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## Just_Some_Guy (Oct 8, 2009)

If you're down with Hinduism, I suggest looking into the metaphysical structure presented by Samkhya philosophy and its relationship with the worldview presented in the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. The two tend to account for paranormal phenomenon quite well.


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## sprinkles (Feb 7, 2010)

I'm sure there are probably things that we are just too primitive to understand. "paranormal" is just perspective. If we last another thousand years, people will probably look back and say "people actually believed <insert thing> back then" - kind of a flat earth deal.


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## Longdove (Jan 4, 2011)

dizzygirl said:


> People are skeptical about *ESP (extrasensory perception)*, about simple things like dream manipulation or precognition.
> In case of Anneliese Michel (the girl on whose exorcism the movie of Emily Rose was based) the double voices and the use of ancient Armenian language were not enough proof of her being possessed.


There are certain cases that alleged victims have had physical marks, extending to deep bruises, and bloody lacerations, well in some cases even burn marks, that were said to be of no natural physical origin. Those types of claims definitely are where the meat would be at in terms of proof, because when medics have examined them, and photographs taken, it's a little harder to dismiss. Of course, this doesn't mean that explanations such as they were either self-inflected or were the product of psychosis are to be disregarded, and there are also always many cons, but the wounds and bruises rule out the simple explanation that people are hallucinating or have high fantasies.


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## dalsgaard (Aug 14, 2010)

I suppose people feel the need to believe in these things, because they lack excitement in their lives.


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## dalsgaard (Aug 14, 2010)

EmotionallyTonedGeometry said:


> If the forum will permit further digression...


Likewise. Also, we're venturing into a realm now where my english (It's my second language) is beginning to become inadequate, so I hope I can carry this discussion - but it may be beyond my capability at this point.



> My position is that existence is a dynamic phenomenon experienced though the qualitative lived experience of being. With out this "something that it is to be a human" there is no human existence (this is the philosophical zombie problem). To learn how to navigate consciousness, we must become in tune with this experience, which is 100% subjective.


If I understand you correctly, what you're talking about is a sort of metaphysical awareness that stems from the knowledge of ones own being.



> It can surely be augmented by objective understanding of the body, for sure, but each of us are alone when we walk our path. Learning how to understand ourselves and live better lives seems to be the core of whateverthehell "religion" is, but I prefer to call it self-cultivation (_bhavana_), or perhaps learning to wake up.


Objective understanding can only come from sufficient self-knowledge. We have to learn how we work, before we can learn how the world works.



> I don't think I need to say much about how a staunchly materialist position is at odds with such self-cultivation.


Actually, I think you do. Self-cultivation isn't something I neglect because I don't believe in souls.



> The biggest problem is the criteria of objectivity. Forcing objective language and methods into the subjective just doesn't work for many reasons. This is where my point from the previous post comes in. When objective orientation nestles into a society, it does so by strengthening the subject/predicate structure of language and Aristotelian Logic (A=A, A=/=B, AorB). In such a society, these criteria are applied naturally to the study of science, but also to the study of religion. The former is quite natural, but the second, in my opinion, is perverse as I previously defined _bhavana _as a strictly subjective exploration.


Science quantifies. Is your point that science shouldn't attempt to quantify the individual, since it is 'indivisible'?



> This results in two errors. The first is scientism, or the belief that -_everything- _is reducible to objective measurement and observation. The second is religious absolutism that projects through faith an objective metaphysical ontology that cannot be questioned. These two positions naturally but heads.


I don't believe that everything is reducible to objective measurement. I believe you have Heidegger written allover this post, but I read Sein und Zeit in danish and I can't for the life of me break this language barrier. There is much I would like to say on this, but I can't at the moment.



> My centrist position is that neither of the above positions are appropriate. Science is a tool for exploration that answers questions such as "how." I don't understand how any self-respecting scientist could ever bend the scientific method to answer "why" and "what" questions as that is so flagrantly a religious maneuver. Next, objective religion is slave religion that creates a metaphysical template to which one subscribes. The individual becomes subsumed in a greater narrative that introduces flagrantly fictitious elements of "reality" that, in my opinion, obscures a legitimate study of reality and one's self. Any religion worth it's salt negates itself in some way or another. This is why I'm a fan of both Zen and Meister Eckhart's God as they both explicitly negate all absolute ideas.


 This is where I agree with you in principle, but would need more concrete examples to find out the extent. It is not up to science to quantify the subjective experience of love, but it can describe the chemical processes that goes on in the brain that constitute the parts of such an experience. 



> To restate my position, I emphatically endorse the sciences equally as well as a study of one's self. For the latter, I suggest what the Buddha taught (not "Buddhism"), certain schools of Hindu thought that negate themselves or embrace non-dualism (Vedanta & Yoga) or the teaching of any sage that encourages letting go of who you think you are.


On this, I endorse Zen buddhism. Especially any teacher who tells his sangha to just go sit under a tree. But there are many great books on this subject as well. If not, zazen will suffice if one happens to have really strong back muscles!



> The root of the human problem is discriminatory consciousness (_buddhi)_, or the part of consciousness that recognizes the difference between this and that. Something very perverse happens when discriminatory consciousness attempts to discriminate itself. A paradox arises in any case of self-reference. This paradox is the root of consciousness. We have two options when it comes to making sense of this paradox. The first is that we can accept the ouroboran absurdity and twist reality to shore up the infinite fractals and regressions of consciousness. The second is that we can learn how to stop directing _buddhi _back on itself. The resulting state of this is called "enlightenment," "moksha," "kaivalya," "awakening," etc. This is not a mystical mumbo-jumbo promised land to be taken on faith, but a restructuring of consciousness that can be empirically verified by those who choose to exert their energies along this path.


I don't disagree. It's a matter of developing concentration. I don't think it's possible to become objective. But being fractured, as you mention, stems from a perpetual dissecting of ones inner state of mind. A constant self-consciousness is the manifestation of such a duality. When I am working, I am not a person doing maths. I 'become' the maths, metaphysically speaking. I think this is a necessity, since it's impossible to be two at once so to speak. There is no subjective or objective, there only _is_ (English failing deeply, commencing shutdown).


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## Just_Some_Guy (Oct 8, 2009)

dalsgaard said:


> If I understand you correctly, what you're talking about is a sort of metaphysical awareness that stems from the knowledge of ones own being.


You're almost onto my point. It isn't a metaphysical awareness but an immediate experience. As you mention about doing math and _becoming _the process of math, that's what I have in mind. It is an expression of being (or being-in-time, if you prefer).



> Actually, I think you do. Self-cultivation isn't something I neglect because I don't believe in souls.


My definition of self-cultivation is independent of the idea of a soul. It is simply cultivating positive qualities. 




> Science quantifies. Is your point that science shouldn't attempt to quantify the individual, since it is 'indivisible'?


Going back to your notion of "becoming math", what happens when the process of becoming math attempts to apply math to that very becoming? I say a perverse circularity arises that is absurd and paradoxical.




> This is where I agree with you in principle, but would need more concrete examples to find out the extent. It is not up to science to quantify the subjective experience of love, but it can describe the chemical processes that goes on in the brain that constitute the parts of such an experience.


 Indeed. The two perspectives must correlate and compliment, but never reduce one side to the other.



> I don't disagree. It's a matter of developing concentration. I don't think it's possible to become objective. But being fractured, as you mention, stems from a perpetual dissecting of ones inner state of mind. A constant self-consciousness is the manifestation of such a duality. When I am working, I am not a person doing maths. I 'become' the maths, metaphysically speaking. I think this is a necessity, since it's impossible to be two at once so to speak. There is no subjective or objective, there only _is_ (English failing deeply, commencing shutdown).


 Right on! This is the field of non-dualism where language and logic fall apart. I (and many others) contest that a very different kind of communication is required to talk about this facet of human experience. David Bohm takes a crack at it, but the best attempt is from Dogen in his _Dotoku_ fascicle of the _Shobogenzo_.


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## dalsgaard (Aug 14, 2010)

EmotionallyTonedGeometry said:


> Right on! This is the field of non-dualism where language and logic fall apart. I (and many others) contest that a very different kind of communication is required to talk about this facet of human experience. David Bohm takes a crack at it, but the best attempt is from Dogen in his _Dotoku_ fascicle of the _Shobogenzo_.


 Yes. I can't talk about this in any meaningful way in English, and half of the time I'm not exactly sure what you're saying either. I don't think this quantification of the self is possible in a 'deep' sense, but I agree it's possible on an intellectual basis. I see no reason to believe, from a scientific perspective, that I have consciousness and free will - but still this experience of existing persists. It doesn't matter if I break sex down to its biological components or think of it in terms of evolutionary theory attempting to render it futile, I still want to have it because my instincts override any logical conclusion that I would have preclude it. We can't overrule these experiences with rational measures. Being human comes first. Science comes next. That is why it's extremely important to know ourselves, in order we assess the world correctly and without prejudice. But some things can be chosen.

We must bring both ideas into accord. Believing in the paranormal only makes sense if it accords with reality in both 'worlds'. While one must be true to ones own feelings, it's also important to be follow every argument to its logical conclusion. If that logical conclusion invalidates ones own experiences, then either the logic is at fault, or ones own experience is wrong since we have already agreed that there only is one truth. So we recount that logic, and we find that there is no way around it: Santa Claus can't exist, even though we saw him by the Christmas tree. In that context we have to reevaluate our former experience by redefining it. Was it my father in a costume? Etc. It may be hard to come to such a realization, since the world becomes a far more dull and uninteresting place if there is no Santa Claus. Some won't follow that logical chain, because they unconsciously know where it leads and would rather be in denial - or they tend not to think about it too much. We can't always change the world, but in many respects we can change ourselves. Later we may find out that Santa Claus really does exist, and all of a sudden we have to redefine our previous experiences once again.


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## StandingTiger (Dec 25, 2010)

Naama said:


> we got no proof that it does exist, but we do have proof that people could imagine such things.


This. Thank you, wise INTP.


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## Just_Some_Guy (Oct 8, 2009)

It brings me great joy when threads begin with two seemingly diverging positions but then resolve with a mutual understanding of common ground. 



dalsgaard said:


> Yes. I can't talk about this in any meaningful way in English, and half of the time I'm not exactly sure what you're saying either. I don't think this quantification of the self is possible in a 'deep' sense, but I agree it's possible on an intellectual basis. I see no reason to believe, from a scientific perspective, that I have consciousness and free will - but still this experience of existing persists. It doesn't matter if I break sex down to its biological components or think of it in terms of evolutionary theory attempting to render it futile, I still want to have it because my instincts override any logical conclusion that I would have preclude it. We can't overrule these experiences with rational measures. Being human comes first. Science comes next. That is why it's extremely important to know ourselves, in order we assess the world correctly and without prejudice. But some things can be chosen.
> 
> We must bring both ideas into accord. Believing in the paranormal only makes sense if it accords with reality in both 'worlds'. While one must be true to ones own feelings, it's also important to be follow every argument to its logical conclusion. If that logical conclusion invalidates ones own experiences, then either the logic is at fault, or ones own experience is wrong since we have already agreed that there only is one truth. So we recount that logic, and we find that there is no way around it: Santa Claus can't exist, even though we saw him by the Christmas tree. In that context we have to reevaluate our former experience by redefining it. Was it my father in a costume? Etc. It may be hard to come to such a realization, since the world becomes a far more dull and uninteresting place if there is no Santa Claus. Some won't follow that logical chain, because they unconsciously know where it leads and would rather be in denial - or they tend not to think about it too much. We can't always change the world, but in many respects we can change ourselves. Later we may find out that Santa Claus really does exist, and all of a sudden we have to redefine our previous experiences once again.


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## Bote (Jun 16, 2010)

EmotionallyTonedGeometry said:


> It brings me great joy when threads begin with two seemingly diverging positions but then resolve with a mutual understanding of common ground.


Aye. 

About some out of the ordinary things that happened to me:

1) I had 4 occasions when the TV shut down by me willing it to shut down. All the 4 times it happened when I was at the computer reading something (an article or forum posts usually). Previously I had watched the TV a bit, but forgot to turn it off. Some show or commercial got aired that was louder than the other stuff before it. I noticed that the volume was annoying, but ignored it for a while. Tried to focus on reading but the loudness kept pissing me off. Anger mounted up, I turned my head towards the TV thinking something like 'will you shut the fuck up', 'quiet!' etc. and pop, it shut down as if I hit the remote. On one occasion there was thunder outside so I dismissed that as electrical interference. Other 3 occurrences were on a clear day, and one time even my brother saw it. He was like 'fuck you scared it' lol. I tried to 'practice' this, but never managed to turn it off while concentrating on it. 

2) This happened numerous times, I can't even count. I wake up to go to college and for a short time while I'm doing all the morning rituals a song keeps playing in my mind. Totally random genres of music, even the ones I don't like (like folk or techno). I get on a bus or trolley and there you have it - someone's mobile or the driver's stereo is playing the same song. The delay between the song playing in my head and me actually hearing it outside is almost always 25 minutes (I check out the mobile phone clock often when I go to college). 

I wouldn't call this paranormal, but it's certainly not normal lol


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## undead (Nov 28, 2010)

Regarding this, I could only say that you can't underestimate the power of a human mind.

I agree with @dalsgaard.

I think I have a few experiences that could not be explained. But, I always attribute those experiences to my thinking capability of being able to recognize patterns out of meaningless events.

I like to observe things and objects and try various ways to affect the behavior of those objects. If I don't try to explore the behavior of those objects, I would consider them as magical phenomenon. But, no it's not magical. It's just how it behaves. 

Why do we imagine ETs or aliens in that kind of way? Because it's the form that our brain recognizes.


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## dizzygirl (Dec 19, 2009)

I would like to bring to point that i had originally started the thread saying- "So i was watching The exorcism of Emily rose yesterday and *it came to me again that we have no strong proof of the spirit realm not existing. *". Hence Im open to whatever any of you have to say. and any and all healthy discussions and counter arguments are of course welcome. There is no deviation from the topic(well unless you start talking about icecreams but even that's fine if the ice cream is haunted by some ghoul that wreaks havoc on your tongue!) :tongue:
And now for @dalsgaard Im looking for explanations on any side. I'm of course on mid ground now. Im just saying i have had the experiences and they havent been explained by science _yet_. So, im just considering to be some kind of glitch of my warped mind.
Here's something that will cheer you up! :tongue: This guy apparently proved your view... or so they say. I wanna read the book!
Paranormality by Professor Richard Wiseman

He apparently reveals the frauds....which isn't exactly proof but still im interested to see what he has to say. 
*happy reading*!!


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## dalsgaard (Aug 14, 2010)

dizzygirl said:


> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=12275" target="_blank">dalsgaard</a></i></span> Im looking for explanations on any side. I'm of course on mid ground now. Im just saying i have had the experiences and they havent been explained by science _yet_. So, im just considering to be some kind of glitch of my warped mind.
> Here's something that will cheer you up! :tongue: This guy apparently proved your view... or so they say. I wanna read the book!
> Paranormality by Professor Richard Wiseman
> 
> ...


Interesting. Thank you for the suggestion.
Another great magician that has turned on his heels and has put forth arguments against claims of paranormal nature is James 'The Amazing' Randi:





He is a famous skeptic who established the James Randi Educational Foundation a couple of decades ago, and offers 1 million dollars to anyone who can prove that they have a supernatural ability, while being tested under proper testing conditions. He has been a great inspiration to me. The man is sort of a highly respected godfather in the magic business, he was the one who introduced Penn and Teller to each other, and he has won countless awards for his shows. He has dedicated the latter part of his life to 'debunking frauds', and he never seems to tire of it, and is still dedicating many of his waking hours to it even though he must be around 92 years old by now.


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## USAirlinesLetter (May 25, 2011)

Upon reading the threads above, it makes me wanna study Paranormal Psychology.


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## dizzygirl (Dec 19, 2009)

@USAirlinesLetter I'm glad we provided you with such an interesting conversation! :tongue: Also, oddly interesting username! ^_^


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## affezwilling (Feb 1, 2011)

The Exorcism of Emily Rose freaked me out a little, but I liked it. I like hearing about other peoples brushes with the paranormal. I'll have to go back and read the rests of the posts on this thread, but I'll share my most story.

About 6 years ago I was living by myself. There were many things that I experienced that year that just weren't normal. One of the things that really stands out was one night I woke up abruptly at 3 am (which I believe was dubed the witching hour according to the aforementioned movie) on the dot. I sat up straight in bed an my glance shot straight at the bedroom door where I saw for an instant a very large hooded black figure that I swear was death. In that same instant I caught a glance of the TV in my room. I swear there were faces protruding from the TV screen that were screaming and wailing. Then in the next instant it was all gone and the room was dark and silent again. It could have all been a waking dream, it could have been my imagination running away from me, or it could have been an actual supernatural experience, but that's what I saw and heard. All I know for sure though is that for a year following that experience someone that I knew died almost every month, some months more than 1 person died.

You can interpenetrate all that how you want, but that was one awesome, freaky and messed up year.


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## nádej (Feb 27, 2011)

Here's one:

A few years ago I was in Florida with some friends working with a pastor there. We were living in the church, and one night we were bored; so a couple of my friends took out their guitars and started to lead worship in the sanctuary. We were singing a song called "Revelation Song." I had my eyes closed and was thinking that we sounded really good for 8 or so college kids in an empty sanctuary...it sounded like the sanctuary was full of voices. I felt warmth and light so I opened my eyes - and saw angels. They were everywhere: in the pews, on the beams of the ceiling, next to me, behind me, in front of me. And they were singing. I started to weep and shake – it was the most beautiful thing I had ever seen in my life. If I were to attempt a description, I would say that above everything else, they radiated light. They radiated light that was so bright, so pure, so holy. They looked like the pictures of angels that we see – they had forms like those angels – but their forms were almost hidden beneath the light that just radiated from them...It was absolutely breathtaking. About a week later, I was looking through the concordance in my Bible to find a verse in Hebrews on angels for one of my good friends. My eyes were drawn instead to Revelation 5:11-12, "Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" Those are the some of the lyrics to “Revelation Song”. I hadn't made the connection before.

What's more is that, much later I was describing the experience to a friend, whose boyfriend (also a good friend of mine) had told of seeing angels in the past. As I was describing it, she grabbed my arm and gasped, saying that I described them using the exact same words as her boyfriend did. Her boyfriend and I had never discussed it. I hadn't even known he'd ever seen angels. My grandfather diedwhen I was four months old, but in his writings there is documentation of a very similar encounter he had - my mom brought it out to show me when I told her what I had seen. The description was almost identical to the description I had given.



I went back and forth and back and forth as to whether or not this was real, or my mind playing tricks on me. As much as I'd like to be able to explain it away, any attempt seems inadequate. 

I very strongly believe that there is much more to this world than meets the eye. I would have shot down any stories of the 'paranormal' before that experience...but I simply can't anymore. There's so much that we don't know.


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## dizzygirl (Dec 19, 2009)

@katienicole- Thanks for sharing. It's very interesting what you saw in the church. None of us so far had described any experience on the holy side 
@affezwilling - That sounds like right out of Drag me to Hell and Final Destination ^^ Must have been a horrific year... your use of the word 'awesome' freaks me out. :dry:


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## Kriash (May 5, 2011)

This is an awesome thread, thanks for posting it @dizzygirl It has been really interesting to read.


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## dizzygirl (Dec 19, 2009)

:happy: I'm glad i made this thread. I'm getting to hear about all the experiences that people had and also everyone's opinion on things out of the ordinary! ^^


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## affezwilling (Feb 1, 2011)

dizzygirl said:


> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=19326" target="_blank">katienicole</a></i></span> - Thanks for sharing. It's very interesting what you saw in the church. None of us so far had described any experience on the holy side
> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=18314" target="_blank">affezwilling</a></i></span> - That sounds like right out of Drag me to Hell and Final Destination ^^ Must have been a horrific year... your use of the word 'awesome' freaks me out. :dry:


You want to hear a final destination experience? About seven and a half years ago I got on a red eye flight over seas. As I settled into my seat I noticed that the seat back was broken and would not stay upright, when I put down the trey table the clip that holds it up fell out and I had to jam it back in and when I tried to put the window shade up it dropped right back down again & wouldn't stay up. I immediately thought about Final Destination, but wasn't really scared as in the end everything always works in my favor somehow. Sure enough though by the time we started our decent 3 of the 4 engines had gone out. We had emergency vehicles meeting us on the runway just in case though.

I don't have anything relating to Drag Me to Hell. Hell doesn't want me. The wording 'awesome' may freak you out a bit, but I've stared into Deaths eyes more than once. God and I have an understanding, and Azrael (the angel of death) and I are on good terms. Pain and death no longer scare me since I have come to accept both and am at peace with them. Once you've come to accept both life and death and the pain that accompanies both, horror can easily meld into excitement and fear tends to melt away. That's why, as freaky as that year was, it was also full of awesome.

I'm also going to add a song to this thread because it fits with the topic:

NIN - Right Where it Belongs


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## dizzygirl (Dec 19, 2009)

@affezwilling you sound like Dean Winchester!  Well, minus the battling demons!


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## 2562q (May 7, 2011)

I would like to say that while I have maintained my skepticism on the paranormal, I have denied its existence.


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## NekoNinja (Apr 18, 2010)

Some more possible explanations.

The Creepy Scientific Explanation Behind Ghost Sightings | Cracked.com

Ghost Lusters: If You Want to See a Specter Badly Enough, Will You?: Scientific American

The Body Odd - See ghosts? There may be a medical reason


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