# Doing the Questionnaire because -_-



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

*0. Is there anything that may affect the way you answer the questions? For example, a stressful time, mental illness, medications, special life circumstances? Other useful information includes sex, age, and current state of mind.*

I'm in a good place atm. I have been diagnosed with BPD in the past, but I don't know if that will skew my answers or not.

*1. Click on this link: Flickr: Explore!** Look at the random photo for about 30 seconds. Copy and paste it here, and write about your impression of it.*

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/29959477913/in/explore-2016-10-27/

Gorgeous. Dark. Calm. Refined. At first glance I thought the walkway was water, but upon closer inspection I realized there were cracks in it. The image gives me some nostalgia, because I've been to Venice before and I've always ached to go back. It was one of those cities where I knew how to find everything without explanation. I was drawn to this picture immediately because of it - and because it was taken at night.

*2. You are with a group of people in a car, heading to a different town to see your favourite band/artist/musician. Suddenly, the car breaks down for an unknown reason in the middle of nowhere. What are your initial thoughts? What are your outward reactions?
*
I'm disappointed, but also kind of amused. I tend to go with the flow and adapt to circumstances, so I would try to think of the next step and figure out what options we have to get out of the situation. There isn't much to do in the middle of nowhere, so calling for help might be the only thing to do. I'd be pretty calm, because what else is there to do? No sense in getting worked up over a situation you can't change. 

When I lived in Germany for 6 weeks, we got on the wrong train that went in the exact opposite direction of where we were staying. Since none of us spoke German we had no idea when or if it would be stopping before reaching a city that was literally hundreds of miles away from us. Everyone was panicking, but I was like LOL WE'RE GOING TO MUNICH!!!

*3. You somehow make it to the concert. The driver wants to go to the afterparty that was announced (and assure you they won't drink so they can drive back later). How do you feel about this party? What do you do?*

Eh. Depends on my mood. If I'm too tired, I don't want to go, and I'll be like nope, I'll find another ride. If I'm feeling it and the concert has me all pumped up, then why not? 

*4. On the drive back, your friends are talking. A friend makes a claim that clashes with your current beliefs. What is your inward reaction? What do you outwardly say?*

I don't have super strong inner convictions/beliefs. I can generally see the other side very easily. I think I would be more interested in WHY they believed it, so I'd ask a bunch of questions to get a better idea. People who are very passionate about religion or politics fascinate me, in a way, because those are things I just dgaf about. I'll vote just like any other American, but I don't staunchly defend my position or get offended very easily. I'm not the sort of person who gets involved in those things on facebook, or who unfriends people because they're voting for a certain person. 

*5. What would you do if you actually saw/experienced something that clashes with your previous beliefs, experiences, and habits?
*
Well, I had a guy confront me and my mother outside a bookstore talking about Christianity and preaching to us. It was some sort of Christian bingo; he was excited to find a natural blonde and a mother/daughter pair, so he could check two of his bingo list. I was like sure, why not. He tried preaching to us. I countered what he said in a friendly way - just, you know, not telling him YOU'RE WRONG, or coming from a position of disbelief, but challenging what he was telling me by pointing out inconsistencies in the Bible and in prophecies. I don't think he expected to run into an agnostic who knew the Bible just as well as he did (I went to a Baptist college.) 

*6. What are some of your most important values? How did you come about determining them? How can they change?*

I don't really have any. I guess do no harm? That seems pretty reasonable, but I can see certain situations where it would be necessary to do harm, if you need to survive. Morality kind of changes depending on who and what's around you, so this is a difficult question to answer. It's situational and subjective.

*7. a) What about your personality most distinguishes you from everyone else? b) If you could change one thing about you personality, what would it be? Why?*

One thing... probably my immediate tendency to be pessimistic. I am EXTREMELY pessimistic about everything and anything. My perception is always colored in a way I can't seem to control. I can logically see the situation for what it is, but the emotions associated with it can't be turned off. It's awful.

*8. How do you treat hunches or gut feelings? In what situations are they most often triggered?*

It depends. Most of my "gut feelings" are backed up by something external that I can refer to. For example, I got a creepy feeling when a guy at a rest stop asked me to help him load something into his truck (I'm not even kidding, it was so _Silence of the Lambs_), I knew that I, as a twelve year old, could not feasibly help carry a bedframe larger than me, so I said no. 

As far as situation, I don't get "gut feelings" very often. Maybe once or twice in my life. It was mostly when there was something potentially dangerous in my environment, because I was in the police academy and trained to BE ALERT... ...but I can be oblivious to my external environment at times, so I wasn't the best at this. I'm pretty good at reading people, but I don't consider my impressions to be gut feelings, because there's always a reason I see or think something, and I'll never solidify it in my head until I have more evidence of that behavior. Even then, I'll always leave a door open. I have a bad habit of not closing doors on topics/people/everything ever, including my MBTI type.

*9. a) What activities energize you most? b) What activities drain you most? Why?*

a.) Situations where I have to solve something, or figure out something. Also rehearsal. I get VERY energized when I have to mentally put myself in the mind of another person, especially a fictionalized person. My rehearsals sometimes last until midnight or later, so I can never fall asleep afterward. 

b.) Doing monotonous activity for too many hours. I. Get. So. Bored. I can't take it.

*10. What do you repress about your outward behavior or internal thought process when around others? Why?*

I try to repress my emotions. I feel things very, very strongly, and try to cover that up and keep it to myself. For the most part, I keep it internal, but even I have my breaking point. Sometimes I tend to have a resting bitch face. My friend told me to raise my eyebrows so I look less snooty.


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## Candy Apple (Sep 10, 2015)

Hi again  still ENTP. There's no way I'd think you'd be an ENFP - _no. way._

Your previous post/thread showed lots of Fe as I mentioned before. To sum it up you have this thing for finding out about people/perspectives - yes attribute that to your Ne and Ti but there are elements of Fe that go along. You also like affirmation from people _and will put up a certain image to achieve that_. You're also quite the 'underdog'. You also like to _lighten the mood_ in a group and use playful banter.

While you say you don't base your decisions on morals, you still evidently _consider_ situations in an Fe way (one that is no where close to Fi) and you follow it up and make your decision based on T.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Candy Apple said:


> Hi again  still ENTP. There's no way I'd think you'd be an ENFP - _no. way._
> 
> Your previous post/thread showed lots of Fe as I mentioned before. To sum it up you have this thing for finding out about people/perspectives - yes attribute that to your Ne and Ti but there are elements of Fe that go along. You also like affirmation from people _and will put up a certain image to achieve that_. You're also quite the 'underdog'. You also like to _lighten the mood_ in a group and use playful banter.


This is all true - though I'm not proud of it, necessarily.



> While you say you don't base your decisions on morals, you still evidently _consider_ situations in an Fe way (one that is no where close to Fi) and you follow it up and make your decision based on T.



I think, with me, it's difficult to reconcile being type 4 with being an ENTP. I know the enneagram and MBTI are not similar, as a 4, I do have strong feelings on my identity/authenticity that are often put into question by the w3 as being feigned, exaggerated, or even false. Sometimes I wonder if I just embody what I want to be, although I don't necessarily want to be a specific type, so maybe what type I think I might be? 

Is this strong focus on my personal identity/feelings Fi? I don't know the functions very well, I'm just wondering how certain aspects of my personality relating to enneagram might be related to MBTI, or if it undermines them in any way.

EDIT: ...Your candy apple has be so hungry rn.


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## Candy Apple (Sep 10, 2015)

Doll said:


> I think, with me, it's difficult to reconcile being type 4 with being an ENTP. I know the enneagram and MBTI are not similar, as a 4, I do have strong feelings on my identity/authenticity that are often put into question by the w3 as being feigned, exaggerated, or even false. Sometimes I wonder if I just embody what I want to be, although I don't necessarily want to be a specific type, so maybe what type I think I might be?
> 
> Is this strong focus on my personal identity/feelings Fi? I don't know the functions very well, I'm just wondering how certain aspects of my personality relating to enneagram might be related to MBTI, or if it undermines them in any way.


I still don't know anything about enneagram sorry.

I don't think that a strong focus on personal identity is necessarily Fi. Fi is about values and morals and sticking to them basically - trying to be as authentic to them as you can be - letting them guide/shape your actions.

Trying to find out who you are / what you're like is another thing.

I don't think you're actually trying to embody who you want to be to the extent of rigging MBTI typing. For you to even do that successfully you'd need proper understanding of the functions and how they work together for you to have a chance at being convincing about it. 

Everything you've said, no matter how you've said it, no matter how you may or may not have wanted it to sound, all points to ENTP. There's nothing about what you've said that makes me even _think_ you were trying to embody something that you're not.



> EDIT: ...Your candy apple has be so hungry rn.


It's looking for some Reese's pieces for company. 

Is there something else you wanted to know or have me clarify or discuss with you?


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## Liriope (Aug 11, 2015)

Fe can concern itself with identity and authenticity as much as Fi can, so that on its own doesn't say much about feeling functions. Also, "my feelings are strong and they're annoying and I can't turn them off" is something I hear far more from ENTPs than from ENFPs; for ENFPs, attempts to manage emotions feel more natural, for the most part.

What do you think about these descriptions of ENxPs developing their feeling functions?



> [ ... ] Fi helps to balance artistic integrity and personal identity against the aesthetic expectations of the audience in question. This may present both a gift and something of a difficult conundrum for the young ENFP: naturally more in tune with the perceptions and expectations of her friends and peer groups than with her own private identity, the ENFP seeking to appease auxiliary Fi may feel highly conflicted when her desire to lead the charge into the unknown contradicts her personal feeling that something isn't right, that someone is being treated unfairly, that something isn't being approached with complete integrity. In the process of developing Fi, it's not uncommon to see ENFPs loudly and bluntly declaring their moral opposition to situations they find unconscionable: as Fi builds an increasingly steady position in their cognitive hierarchies, ENFPs are forced to confront the fact that sometimes, standing up for what's right means subjecting themselves to the hatred and indiscretion of the people they'd normally want to impress and identify with.





> Ideally, Fe development should occur once Ti recognizes that there is a valid and inherently consistent reason for collectivized moral judgment to arise and guide the structure of interpersonal relationships. Earlier in life, it's all too common for ENTPs to expect continual validation, encouragement, and attention from the people they find interesting, but without the balancing influence of Fe, they rarely recognize the imbalance between how much they take and how much they give to the people closest to them. When confronted with this disparity, it's not uncommon for tertiary Fe to spring into action and promote feelings of guilt and self-criticism, but the process of learning to correct this disparity is a vital part of developing adult relationships where ENTPs are willing and able to give as much as they often unconsciously take. Giving up the logical high ground may prove difficult for the young ENTP's ego to swallow, but it's a vital step toward personal balance that's responsible for a great deal of the gradual movement from pure hedonistic exploration toward a more well-rounded outlook and a serious understanding of and respect for the needs and sentiments of those close to them. Though they do tend to mature slowly in general, it's not uncommon to see abrupt and unexpected leaps in perspective in this area, especially when the ENTP admires or strives to emulate a close friend or family member with strong Fe.


(source)


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Candy Apple said:


> I still don't know anything about enneagram sorry.


Ahh, I know a lot of people see it as an inferior system (not saying you do), but it's what originally brought me to PerC, and it works very differently.



> I don't think that a strong focus on personal identity is necessarily Fi. Fi is about values and morals and sticking to them basically - trying to be as authentic to them as you can be - letting them guide/shape your actions.


I don't have many values or morals. I do strive for authenticity in how I AM and who I am, and I am sensitive to being thought of as fake. I think I do put up idealized images, but at the same time I'm conflicted that it might not reflect my actual self. Values/morals don't play a role in that, unless the Self is a value.



> Trying to find out who you are / what you're like is another thing.


This is the separation that I'm trying to decipher: if the self is separate from Fi as far as values/morals go.



> I don't think you're actually trying to embody who you want to be to the extent of rigging MBTI typing. For you to even do that successfully you'd need proper understanding of the functions and how they work together for you to have a chance at being convincing about it.


I'm getting to know MBTI better, but I'm far from being secure on it.



> Everything you've said, no matter how you've said it, no matter how you may or may not have wanted it to sound, all points to ENTP. There's nothing about what you've said that makes me even _think_ you were trying to embody something that you're not.


I definitely don't want to do that. 



> It's looking for some Reese's pieces for company.


Reese's pieces. I would melt.



> Is there something else you wanted to know or have me clarify or discuss with you?


When I look at Fi/Fe is where I have the most trouble. There isn't a lot of clear cut, definitive differences between the two. I know that my interests in theater, art, literature, and psychology are Fi-ish, but I also have an interest in forensics and true crime. Whenever I read Fi/Fe descriptions, it's like I could take one line from each and create my own function that incorporates both.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Liriope said:


> Fe can concern itself with identity and authenticity as much as Fi can, so that on its own doesn't say much about feeling functions. Also, "my feelings are strong and they're annoying and I can't turn them off" is something I hear far more from ENTPs than from ENFPs; for ENFPs, attempts to manage emotions feel more natural, for the most part.


I am very in tune with my emotions, but I also can't manage them well. I don't know if that's the BPD, as they become more manageable when I am on medication, or if I just feel things strongly. 



> _[ ... ] Fi helps to balance artistic integrity and personal identity against the aesthetic expectations of the audience in question. This may present both a gift and something of a difficult conundrum for the young ENFP: naturally more in tune with the perceptions and expectations of her friends and peer groups than with her own private identity, the ENFP seeking to appease auxiliary Fi may feel highly conflicted when her desire to lead the charge into the unknown contradicts her personal feeling that something isn't right, that someone is being treated unfairly, that something isn't being approached with complete integrity. In the process of developing Fi, it's not uncommon to see ENFPs loudly and bluntly declaring their moral opposition to situations they find unconscionable: as Fi builds an increasingly steady position in their cognitive hierarchies, ENFPs are forced to confront the fact that sometimes, standing up for what's right means subjecting themselves to the hatred and indiscretion of the people they'd normally want to impress and identify with.__
> Ideally, Fe development should occur once Ti recognizes that there is a valid and inherently consistent reason for collectivized moral judgment to arise and guide the structure of interpersonal relationships. Earlier in life, i*t's all too common for ENTPs to expect continual validation, encouragement, and attention from the people they find interesting, but without the balancing influence of Fe, they rarely recognize the imbalance between how much they take and how much they give to the people closest to them. When confronted with this disparity, it's not uncommon for tertiary Fe to spring into action and promote feelings of guilt and self-criticism, but the process of learning to correct this disparity is a vital part of developing adult relationships where ENTPs are willing and able to give as much as they often unconsciously take. Giving up the logical high ground may prove difficult for the young ENTP's ego to swallow, but it's a vital step toward personal balance that's responsible for a great deal of the gradual movement from pure hedonistic exploration toward a more well-rounded outlook and a serious understanding of and respect for the needs and sentiments of those close to them. Though they do tend to mature slowly in general, it's not uncommon to see abrupt and unexpected leaps in perspective in this area, especially when the ENTP admires or strives to emulate a close friend or family member with strong Fe*._


_

_

...That part I bolded is basically my childhood.


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## Candy Apple (Sep 10, 2015)

Doll said:


> Ahh, I know a lot of people see it as an inferior system (not saying you do), but it's what originally brought me to PerC, and it works very differently.


Ah I see. For me it's just a personal choice not to dabble in it. The ISTJ profile ringing true to me is what brought me to PerC. 



> I don't have many values or morals. I do strive for authenticity in how I AM and who I am, and I am sensitive to being thought of as fake. I think I do put up idealized images, but at the same time I'm conflicted that it might not reflect my actual self. Values/morals don't play a role in that, unless the Self is a value.
> 
> This is the separation that I'm trying to decipher: if the self is separate from Fi as far as values/morals go.


You can still be authentic either way (Fe/Fi) and also be sensitive about being thought of as fake, no doubt about that.



> When I look at Fi/Fe is where I have the most trouble. There isn't a lot of clear cut, definitive differences between the two. I know that my interests in theater, art, literature, and psychology are Fi-ish, but I also have an interest in forensics and true crime. Whenever I read Fi/Fe descriptions, it's like I could take one line from each and create my own function that incorporates both.


When it comes to you I am not drawing my conclusion of Fe based on whether you're authentic or "true" to yourself or whatever, I'm basing it on what's drawing/bleeding (lol sorry, couldn't think of better words) out of it. 

Both Fe and Fi types seek validation but the type of validation they want is different. This is what I'm using to determine your use of Fe as this is mainly what stands out to me from your posts. Usually when determining Fi I just stick to "authenticity", "values" and "morals" because that's what _really _stands out when people with Fi express themselves. 

Here we'll dig deeper:
Fi wants validation in the form of having their individuality honoured. They want to be acknowledged and accepted for who they really are otherwise they'll feel alienated and want to hide away to keep to themselves. They want to be free to express whoever they are, no matter how weird or odd it may seem to people and they wish others would 'respect' them for who they are; let them be who they are and not be 'diminished' or looked down on. Fi users know themselves and want to feel _comfortable_ expressing themselves outwardly.

Fe wants validation in the form of belonging or having communion with others. Because of this they want to be an appreciated member of a relationship or social circle or they will feel they have to sacrifice their true selves just to fit in - this is something that causes conflict to Fe users. Fe users don't really know themselves and unconsciously seek validation and self-understanding through relationships, using other people as a mirror. This is why a lot of Fe users seek out information - whether that be gossip / talking / movies / whatever - to find out the different perspectives that people have so that they can gain some kind of understanding and or validation.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Candy Apple said:


> When it comes to you I am not drawing my conclusion of Fe based on whether you're authentic or "true" to yourself or whatever, I'm basing it on what's drawing/bleeding (lol sorry, couldn't think of better words) out of it.


Seems like a good word to me. 



> Fi wants validation in the form of having their individuality honoured. They want to be acknowledged and accepted for who they really are otherwise they'll feel alienated and want to hide away to keep to themselves. They want to be free to express whoever they are, no matter how weird or odd it may seem to people and they wish others would 'respect' them for who they are; let them be who they are and not be 'diminished' or looked down on. Fi users know themselves and want to feel _comfortable_ expressing themselves outwardly.


See, I can relate to all of this very, very much, but as much as I WANT others to see me for who I truly am, I'm very aware if it won't be accepted or acknowledged or seen, so that's where the images come in.



> Fe wants validation in the form of belonging or having communion with others. Because of this they want to be appreciated member of a relationship or social circle or they will feel they have to sacrifice their true selves just to fit in - this is something that causes conflict to Fe users. Fe users don't really know themselves and unconsciously seek validation and self-understanding through relationships, using other people as a mirror. This is why a lot of Fe users seek out information - whether that be gossip / talking / movies / whatever - to find out the different perspectives that people have so that they can gain some kind of understanding and or validation.


I don't consciously seek validation, but I do relate to the images part, because this is what I resort to if I can't have the first. It is difficult for me to think about the possibility that I don't know myself, because I feel that I DO, although I do seek out information and points of view, but not because I want validation, or at least I never thought of it that way. I just think it's interesting to hear why and how people think the way they do. I'd LIKE to think that I don't put up images just to be accepted, but I know that this isn't true and that I've done this before. 

It's like Fi is my true self, but Fe is my fake self that I'm ashamed of. I know you don't know enneagram, but it's like 4 is Fi and 3 is Fe, mirroring my 4w3. -_-


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## dizzycactus (Sep 9, 2012)

Sounds a little NFJ, but not sure, some mixed messages. Not Fi, anyway... although getting in someone's mindset is classically Fi. If you were E I'd imagine you wouldn't hide your feelings so much. But it sounds like you're energised doing external things. There's lots of decisions made on feelings here, but also decisions backed by logic, so it's not certain. 

Well, when you think of a situation, do you see more in terms of a flow of events, or lots of simultaneous possibilites that spring up then you consider each in turn?


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

dizzycactus said:


> Sounds a little NFJ, but not sure, some mixed messages. Not Fi, anyway... although getting in someone's mindset is classically Fi. If you were E I'd imagine you wouldn't hide your feelings so much. But it sounds like you're energised doing external things. There's lots of decisions made on feelings here, but also decisions backed by logic, so it's not certain.
> 
> Well, when you think of a situation, do you see more in terms of a flow of events, or lots of simultaneous possibilites that spring up then you consider each in turn?


 A flow of events. There was a documentary I watched recently. The entire point of a documentary was to solve the mystery of why someone (now deceased) did what she did. The most interesting part about it to me was the timeline. She was at x location at x time, did x. Okay next thing. In between they had interviews with the family to discuss why she would never do this, ect.

In the mix of all that, I did consider various possibilities, which changed and fluctuated as I was given more of the timeline and what she did next. So I do move in a linear fashion, but I'm always taking in possibilities, never discarding them, but moving one up as more probable than another.


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## dizzycactus (Sep 9, 2012)

Doll said:


> A flow of events. There was a documentary I watched recently. The entire point of a documentary was to solve the mystery of why someone (now deceased) did what she did. The most interesting part about it to me was the timeline. She was at x location at x time, did x. Okay next thing. In between they had interviews with the family to discuss why she would never do this, ect.
> 
> In the mix of all that, I did consider various possibilities, which changed and fluctuated as I was given more of the timeline and what she did next. So I do move in a linear fashion, but I'm always taking in possibilities, never discarding them, but moving one up as more probable than another.


Well Ni isn't some flat function that moves in a completely linear manner, it's just considered like that when contrasting it with Ne. Ne is like an expanding balloon of dust particles from an object, and each particle is a possibility, and then each of those dust particles explodes into more dust particles... just piles up more and more possibilities. Ni is a bit more strategic in weighing then pruning off possibilities, and tries to condense them down into one solution. It's kinda like a jigsaw puzzle where all the facts and symbols and possibilties are floating around, then it suddenly pieces them all together into one entity. 

Or maybe I'd say Ni is more like a river, and it is joined by smaller streams that add to the whole, then changes direction a little, divides up, joins again. The auxiliary streams that join to it influence its shape, but it incorporates them and keeps flowing forward, with purpose, towards its destination. 
The auxiliary streams that joint he main river in this metaphor are the possibilities, of course. 

I think maybe you're ENFJ.


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## Candy Apple (Sep 10, 2015)

Doll said:


> See, I can relate to all of this very, very much, but as much as I WANT others to see me for who I truly am, I'm very aware if it won't be accepted or acknowledged or seen, so that's where the images come in.


How do you 'bite back' though? Do you do what Fi users do and withdraw? It's really that or be an ass for an Fi user.



> I don't consciously seek validation, but I do relate to the images part, because this is what I resort to if I can't have the first.


Yeah, I don't think you do either but _un_consciously I think you do when you can't have the first. 



> It is difficult for me to think about the possibility that I don't know myself, because I feel that I DO,


Okay. Just a thought here but maybe don't take the definitions or explanations too black and white - I am not really an Fe user remember so I don't know how to 'accurately' describe it and I'm spitting most of it out from definitions I've found plus things I've noticed in Fe users overtime. It is also possible that you're not like that because yours is tertiary, not dom.



> although I do seek out information and points of view, but not because I want validation, or at least I never thought of it that way.


I think I should mention that I'm also very well aware that you will seek out information and points of view for other reasons - especially your first two functions Ne and Ti. This is basically what they do!



> I just think it's interesting to hear why and how people think the way they do.


The way I've read into this in your posts was in my opinion Fe - but yes they are naturally also attributed to Ne and Ti. It's the "people" part that got me thinking Fe. But if you're saying it's got _nothing_ to do with that then I've got to listen to you. It is still out of the question for you to be an ENFP because they're really totally different from how you are.



> I'd LIKE to think that I don't put up images just to be accepted, but I know that this isn't true and that I've done this before.


Tbh any person will probably do this to some extent in their life sometime but it's whether it's really a go to thing as it seems to be for you?... I'm not trying to say any of this in a negative way or anything. 

I just know overtime as I've gotten older (as in I'm sticking more true to my Fi preference than when I was younger) when I find I'm not accepted there's still no way I can put up an image or something, I'd rather face the 'disruption'/problem as it is - that I'm not accepted and that's that.



> It's like Fi is my true self, but Fe is my fake self that I'm ashamed of.


Not at all. Don't be - I could elaborate but seriously - just don't be ashamed. Perhaps easier said than done but seriously... no judgement about that on my end. 

I don't know how much of a reluctance to Fe is just related to people seeing/describing Fe in a certain way... if it is don't be too caught up about it. There are many points to Fi that can be described in a 'certain way'.



> I know you don't know enneagram, but it's like 4 is Fi and 3 is Fe, mirroring my 4w3. -_-


What's the actual description of 4w3?

Also, Fe is like the atmosphere giving quality - your banter.

Fi absorbs things into itself.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Candy Apple said:


> How do you 'bite back' though? Do you do what Fi users do and withdraw? It's really that or be an ass for an Fi user.


I do withdraw. 



> Yeah, I don't think you do either but _un_consciously I think you do when you can't have the first.


I would have to agree, as much as I hate to. D:



> Okay. Just a thought here but maybe don't take the definitions or explanations too black and white - I am not really an Fe user remember so I don't know how to 'accurately' describe it and I'm spitting most of it out from definitions I've found plus things I've noticed in Fe users overtime. It is also possible that you're not like that because yours is tertiary, not dom.


That's true. Really, it's Fe/Fi that's giving me the most trouble, as I see aspects of myself in both... but everything I test in seems to reinforce strong Ti.



> I think I should mention that I'm also very well aware that you will seek out information and points of view for other reasons - especially your first two functions Ne and Ti. This is basically what they do!


Yeah, I do this a LOT. Sometimes for fun and sometimes out of genuine curiosity to know why someone believes in something. If I'm in the mood, I'll always argue with door-to-door evangelists, even though there's little point in it. I almost hope something I said might make them curious enough to question those deep-seated convictions, but I'm SURE that never actually happens.



> The way I've read into this in your posts was in my opinion Fe - but yes they are naturally also attributed to Ne and Ti. It's the "people" part that got me thinking Fe. But if you're saying it's got _nothing_ to do with that then I've got to listen to you. It is still out of the question for you to be an ENFP because they're really totally different from how you are.


I don't relate to much I see in the ENFP forum, which was what made me start questioning it in the first place. It might be people-oriented in some way, although I'd sooner seek understanding and/or acceptance from other people, rather than validation (unless they are considered one in the same...)



> Tbh any person will probably do this to some extent in their life sometime but it's whether it's really a go to thing as it seems to be for you?... I'm not trying to say any of this in a negative way or anything.


No, no, I understand. It seems to happen more often for me. I'm in theater - for example - and I LOVE acting. I'll purposefully seek out the higher-ups and get on their good side, partly because I want to be elite, but also because it's a good idea to be noticed by someone who can advance my current standing. My interest isn't completely disingenuous, but it is a narrow focus. I can be super outgoing and engaging when I have to be, but my default demeanor is distant and aloof.



> I just know overtime as I've gotten older (as in I'm sticking more true to my Fi preference than when I was younger) when I find I'm not accepted there's still no way I can put up an image or something, I'd rather face the 'disruption'/problem as it is - that I'm not accepted and that's that.


I think for me, if I'm not accepted there's a feeling of "well, I should have expected that", and then I'll bury it, and my false image is almost a, "well, you don't get the real me anyway, so I'll be a secret bitch and kill you with kindness and smiles." 



> Not at all. Don't be - I could elaborate but seriously - just don't be ashamed. Perhaps easier said than done but seriously... no judgement about that on my end.


It's something I tend to judge myself for, when I let myself notice it that is.



> I don't know how much of a reluctance to Fe is just related to people seeing/describing Fe in a certain way... if it is don't be too caught up about it. There are many points to Fi that can be described in a 'certain way'.


Yeah, I think I'm picking apart every piece of it and questioning it, then turning it around to see it in another light, and it's complicating things.



> What's the actual description of 4w3?


Here. 



> Also, Fe is like the atmosphere giving quality - your banter.


Yeah, I get that, definitely. I can see that in the way I interact in the forum. In real life my sense of humor is similar - playful, sarcastic, dry.



> Fi absorbs things into itself.


I do this to, but privately, internally, and it never shows on the outside. 

Unrelated, and I don't know if this makes a difference or not, but: I had a conversation in the car with my wife about a guy she works with. She told me he'd been moved because someone in the department was offended when he used his key to access an area of the building, just to say congratulations to a girl who'd just gotten married. She was all upset and saying that they were probably just LOOKING for reasons to demote him. I told her that she didn't know the whole story; it could be that the girl herself complained and felt weird about the fact that some guy tracked her down just to say congratulations unnecessarily. 

It turned out, I WAS RIGHT. All in all, I'm better at reading situations and understanding gray areas than she is. She takes someone's word for gospel if she trusts them.


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## Candy Apple (Sep 10, 2015)

Doll said:


> That's true. Really, it's Fe/Fi that's giving me the most trouble, as I see aspects of myself in both... but everything I test in seems to reinforce strong Ti.


Just remember that everyone can use all the functions. Apparently my Ni is supposed to be weak... but there are some elements to it that just... aren't weak... so for you, apparently Fi would be considered a weak function but meh who knows what it's really like to you! And while I don't relate to everything that is said about Ni, I can definitely relate to a bit - so many the same for Fi for you.

I do think this F thing is not that "important" just because I think we all know your preference is T - which basically means within the first two preferences of our four preferred functions - that really does help to simplify things.



> Yeah, I do this a LOT. Sometimes for fun and sometimes out of genuine curiosity to know why someone believes in something. If I'm in the mood, I'll always argue with door-to-door evangelists, even though there's little point in it. I almost hope something I said might make them curious enough to question those deep-seated convictions, but I'm SURE that never actually happens.


I think they would consider it depending on how you went about it. :laughing:



> I don't relate to much I see in the ENFP forum, which was what made me start questioning it in the first place.


Yup! I didn't think you would.



> It might be people-oriented in some way, although I'd sooner seek understanding and/or acceptance from other people, rather than validation (unless they are considered one in the same...)


Ah I'm not sure if it's something I've said or what but I kinda want to clarify something. ENFPs are people-oriented in a help the humans way (Fi)[humanitarian], it's like INFPs except ENFPs have a flare about it, a nice soothing way of going about it because of their 6th function which is actually Fe (creating atmosphere). You can read more about it here - scroll down to Fe in ENFPs and ESFPs. Our first four functions are preferences but not exactly indicators of 'strength' and how well we use them. They're the four functions that are valued by us and that we're conscious of, the other 4 are unvalued and we're not really conscious of them. Read this too so that you can understand the first link better.

Also just to point out I have tertiary Fi but in no way do I consider myself humanitarian. So yeah, if it's not in the first two preferences it's going to appear different. I should mention that I'm saying Fi is humanitarian in the first two preferences because that's what I see in people. The only type I'm not too sure about is ISFP as that aspect has not been too evident to me from them even though they're Fi doms.

Fi doms give a kick along with their well meaning words/actions. Fi aux (ENFPs) with 6th function Fe have no kick = nice. 

I do think the acceptance and validation thing are the same thing in this regard. I think it's the whole debate and argument thing again. Well yes, I know acceptance and validation have different definitions but for the sake of MBTI a lot of words are used in strange/certain ways. 



> No, no, I understand. It seems to happen more often for me. I'm in theater - for example - and I LOVE acting. I'll purposefully seek out the higher-ups and get on their good side, partly because I want to be elite, but also because it's a good idea to be noticed by someone who can advance my current standing. My interest isn't completely disingenuous, but it is a narrow focus. I can be super outgoing and engaging when I have to be, but my default demeanor is distant and aloof.


I read this in your previous thread. Either way I'm fine with this and it's not a strong indicator of the whole Fe thing really because this situation is... ya know... c'mon this is kinda common sense.  Let's just say it can give any person a stronger push to get on people's good sides.



> I think for me, if I'm not accepted there's a feeling of "well, I should have expected that", and then I'll bury it, and my false image is almost a, "well, you don't get the real me anyway, so I'll be a secret bitch and kill you with kindness and smiles."


Ah! If someone doesn't grasp who I believe I am (with my values/morals) I won't tell them anything about myself - literally. xD If there's any kindness or smiles it's just out of respect.



> Here.


Thanks. I tried to read it but I'm too sleepy to comprehend it so I'll read it later and get back to you!



> Unrelated, and I don't know if this makes a difference or not,


If by difference you mean provide more evidence for ENTP, yes.  



> but: I had a conversation in the car with my wife about a guy she works with. She told me he'd been moved because someone in the department was offended when he used his key to access an area of the building, just to say congratulations to a girl who'd just gotten married. She was all upset and saying that they were probably just LOOKING for reasons to demote him. I told her that she didn't know the whole story; it could be that the girl herself complained and felt weird about the fact that some guy tracked her down just to say congratulations unnecessarily.
> 
> It turned out, I WAS RIGHT. All in all, I'm better at reading situations and understanding gray areas than she is. She takes someone's word for gospel if she trusts them.


Besides your Ne Ti use of possibilities, this case sounds like Ni to me. ENTPs have strong Ni - even if unvalued. teehee:happy:


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Candy Apple said:


> Just remember that everyone can use all the functions. Apparently my Ni is supposed to be weak... but there are some elements to it that just... aren't weak... so for you, apparently Fi would be considered a weak function but meh who knows what it's really like to you! And while I don't relate to everything that is said about Ni, I can definitely relate to a bit - so many the same for Fi for you.


Maybe I just have well-developed Fi? Is that possible?

Still learning the functions, so I apologize if I ask stupid questions.



> I do think this F thing is not that "important" just because I think we all know your preference is T - which basically means within the first two preferences of our four preferred functions - that really does help to simplify things.


That's true. I know I have the high Ti whenever I take any test - and I've taken multiple. I know that shouldn't be the end-all-be-all, but the pattern certainly means something.



> Ah I'm not sure if it's something I've said or what but I kinda want to clarify something. ENFPs are people-oriented in a help the humans way (Fi)[humanitarian], it's like INFPs except ENFPs have a flare about it, a nice soothing way of going about it because of their 6th function which is actually Fe (creating atmosphere). You can read more about it here - scroll down to Fe in ENFPs and ESFPs. Our first four functions are preferences but not exactly indicators of 'strength' and how well we use them. They're the four functions that are valued by us and that we're conscious of, the other 4 are unvalued and we're not really conscious of them. Read this too so that you can understand the first link better.


I don't have the helping people thing at ALL. It's terrible. I generally don't notice or don't care about others' feelings, which is why I was uncertain about Fe in general since it seemed more outer-oriented, but in this case, the Fi doesn't resonate with me.



> Also just to point out I have tertiary Fi but in no way do I consider myself humanitarian. So yeah, if it's not in the first two preferences it's going to appear different. I should mention that I'm saying Fi is humanitarian in the first two preferences because that's what I see in people. The only type I'm not too sure about is ISFP as that aspect has not been too evident to me from them even though they're Fi doms.


One of my closest friends... probably my closest friend, who am I kidding? (and also an ENFP) is @fleur du mal, and this seems very evident in her. I'd be interested in knowing her point of view in the humanitarian aspect of Fi.



> I do think the acceptance and validation thing are the same thing in this regard. I think it's the whole debate and argument thing again. Well yes, I know acceptance and validation have different definitions but for the sake of MBTI a lot of words are used in strange/certain ways.


Arguing semantics is so frustrating when you don't know the writer's original intentions. I wish I could ask them if they meant THIS, or THAT, because they are almost one and the same, but particular things might suggest different definitions.



> I read this in your previous thread. Either way I'm fine with this and it's not a strong indicator of the whole Fe thing really because this situation is... ya know... c'mon this is kinda common sense.  Let's just say it can give any person a stronger push to get on people's good sides.


I can see that. 



> Ah! If someone doesn't grasp who I believe I am (with my values/morals) I won't tell them anything about myself - literally. xD If there's any kindness or smiles it's just out of respect.


If someone doesn't grasp who I am it's less on the values/morals and more on the intentions. I feel disappointed that someone doesn't "know me better than that" and so on, although that can quickly disintegrate into self-blame. "I should have presented myself more clearly, better, or more authentically", ect. 



> Besides your Ne Ti use of possibilities, this case sounds like Ni to me. ENTPs have strong Ni - even if unvalued. teehee:happy:


It definitely isn't always valued. My wife will always come at me with some sort of issue at work and then I'll make her question whatever convictions she comes to. She calls it me making her see the gray areas.  She sees things very black and white (possibly an ISTJ or ESTJ, not sure?) and I'm the exact opposite.


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## Candy Apple (Sep 10, 2015)

Doll said:


> Maybe I just have well-developed Fi? Is that possible?


I think so.





> I don't have the helping people thing at ALL. It's terrible. I generally don't notice or don't care about others' feelings, which is why I was uncertain about Fe in general since it seemed more outer-oriented, but in this case, the Fi doesn't resonate with me.


Fe as liveliness. In your other thread people did say your Fe was repressed. Anyway that's why I see the atmosphere/lively side to your use of Fe. We're both tertiary F users but I can tell you I'm not going to do anything to change the atmosphere/liveliness of a situation unless I'm around kids or something and even then I'd be so reluctant to. I'd rather leave things as it is.



> One of my closest friends... probably my closest friend, who am I kidding? (and also an ENFP) is @*fleur du mal*, and this seems very evident in her. I'd be interested in knowing her point of view in the humanitarian aspect of Fi.


x] I guess we'll see. Maybe she knows about it in ISFPs too???



> Arguing semantics is so frustrating when you don't know the writer's original intentions. I wish I could ask them if they meant THIS, or THAT, because they are almost one and the same, but particular things might suggest different definitions.


My Te causes me to cut the crap and try to form quick conclusions based on what I have so I'm not too bothered when it comes to MBTI. But yeah, other things I can be very particular about!






> If someone doesn't grasp who I am it's less on the values/morals and more on the intentions. I feel disappointed that someone doesn't "know me better than that" and so on,


Oh yes, me too. 


> although that can quickly disintegrate into self-blame. "I should have presented myself more clearly, better, or more authentically", ect.


Except I blame them. xD Because I truly think I present myself clearly (face-to-face). :laughing:



> It definitely isn't always valued. My wife will always come at me with some sort of issue at work and then I'll make her question whatever convictions she comes to. She calls it me making her see the gray areas.  She sees things very black and white (possibly an ISTJ or ESTJ, not sure?) and I'm the exact opposite.


If ISTJ and using the previous situation it's not telling unless someone actually told her that. If no one told her that and she formulated that on her own and said it with confidence, she's most probably not an ISTJ. But hey! That's really nothing much to go by... need more info.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Candy Apple said:


> Fe as liveliness. In your other thread people did say your Fe was repressed. Anyway that's why I see the atmosphere/lively side to your use of Fe. We're both tertiary F users but I can tell you I'm not going to do anything to change the atmosphere/liveliness of a situation unless I'm around kids or something and even then I'd be so reluctant to. I'd rather leave things as it is.


I can do this, and I particularly related to this part of the article: 

_If the peace between parties is causing staleness, and life appears to be too “settled-in,” Fe may cause drama and even controversy in order to “awaken” people. Fe’s main goal is to provide emotional involvement, excitability, and dynamism and sometimes stirring up the pot and less positive emotions comes quite in handy in this regards. Expressed negativity would be better than apathy. If life was just a constantly stable and unperturbed, shared harmonious quaint atmosphere between all parties at all times, which actually is the dream life of many INFPs (if only such could ever happen), it would be quite a snore._



> x] I guess we'll see. Maybe she knows about it in ISFPs too???


She probably does! She's my smart bb. <3 <3 <3 



> My Te causes me to cut the crap and try to form quick conclusions based on what I have so I'm not too bothered when it comes to MBTI. But yeah, other things I can be very particular about!


I personally think that's awesome. My crap just continues until the end of time, which is great (I see it as having an open mind), but I rarely ever reach a conclusion.


> Except I blame them. xD Because I truly think I present myself clearly (face-to-face). :laughing:


I always blame me me me. And I know you should never type yourself based on unhealthy states, but I really related to the Ne-Fe(Fe-Ne idk) loop that ENTPs experience.



> If ISTJ and using the previous situation it's not telling unless someone actually told her that. If no one told her that and she formulated that on her own and said it with confidence, she's most probably not an ISTJ. But hey! That's really nothing much to go by... need more info.


No one actually told her that; she came to the conclusion on her own. She tends to err on the side of the person she trusts, rather than examine all the facts. She always listens to what I have to say, though. CAUSE I'M RIGHT.


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## Candy Apple (Sep 10, 2015)

Doll said:


> I personally think that's awesome. My crap just continues until the end of time, which is great (I see it as having an open mind), but I rarely ever reach a conclusion.


I've been trying to understand how this kind of thing satisfies people. I'm not sure how I'll ever really 'get' it but I guess I just have to accept that people like to think about a lot of things! In comparison to me I'd rather think about a few topics and go deep into those but in more practical and tangible ways.

For some odd reason I've only just caught onto the whole "closed-minded" thing that people go on about. It's "closed-minded" in a sense but only in certain contexts! It's the debate and argument thing again!



> No one actually told her that; she came to the conclusion on her own. She tends to err on the side of the person she trusts, rather than examine all the facts. She always listens to what I have to say, though. CAUSE I'M RIGHT.


I wonder if she had really solid facts that helped her form that decision or whether she just picked whatever and was wrong. xD 

Good thing she listens to you haha.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Candy Apple said:


> I've been trying to understand how this kind of thing satisfies people. I'm not sure how I'll ever really 'get' it but I guess I just have to accept that people like to think about a lot of things! In comparison to me I'd rather think about a few topics and go deep into those but in more practical and tangible ways.


My wife doesn't get it either. She hates watching the show "Disappeared" with me, because it almost always ends with no conclusion. She gets annoyed when I want to speculate what could have happened to the person based on all the evidence presented, and always makes me google their name to MAKE SURE it hasn't been solved. Loose ends bother her, but they energize me.



> For some odd reason I've only just caught onto the whole "closed-minded" thing that people go on about. It's "closed-minded" in a sense but only in certain contexts! It's the debate and argument thing again!


I see what you mean. It's all about perspective. 



> I wonder if she had really solid facts that helped her form that decision or whether she just picked whatever and was wrong. xD


She's a "goes by her gut" type of person, so she didn't have any real facts aside from what the person in question told her. She just took his word for gold and didn't question it. I'm the "but what if..." person.



> Good thing she listens to you haha.


As she should. 

Also just took this test, and: 

*Your personality type is: ENTP*

*Preference Clarity Categories:* 
_(Slight, Moderate, Clear, Very Clear)_ 

Slight Extraversion: 11/21
Clear Intuition: 24/26
Clear Thinking: 19/24
Very Clear Perceiving: 22/22

I know tests aren't the end-all-be-all, but still.


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## Candy Apple (Sep 10, 2015)

Doll said:


> My wife doesn't get it either. She hates watching the show "Disappeared" with me, because it almost always ends with no conclusion. She gets annoyed when I want to speculate what could have happened to the person based on all the evidence presented, and always makes me google their name to MAKE SURE it hasn't been solved. Loose ends bother her, but they energize me.


That show would drive me nuts. 




> She's a "goes by her gut" type of person, so she didn't have any real facts aside from what the person in question told her. She just took his word for gold and didn't question it. I'm the "but what if..." person.


Lol reminds me of someone I used to know. Pretty sure he was an INTP though and kept asking me questions similar to what if and in essence I was like, 'There's nothing!' He just kept digging and digging! :bored: I guess I wouldn't have minded so much if they weren't personal questions. -_-



> *Your personality type is: ENTP*
> 
> 
> *Preference Clarity Categories:*
> ...


That test was so boring! >< I didn’t want to do it but did it anyway… for no reason really. xD

*Your personality type is: ISTJ*
*Preference Clarity Categories:* 
_(Slight, Moderate, Clear, Very Clear)_ 

Clear Introversion: 19/21
Clear Sensing: 24/26
Clear Thinking: 20/24
Very Clear Judging: 22/22


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Candy Apple said:


> Lol reminds me of someone I used to know. Pretty sure he was an INTP though and kept asking me questions similar to what if and in essence I was like, 'There's nothing!' He just kept digging and digging! :bored: I guess I wouldn't have minded so much if they weren't personal questions. -_-




That would bother me. Part of me would be flattered that someone was asking about me, but I'd find a way to turn the questions around on them. I just don't reveal a lot about myself to strangers.




> That test was so boring! >< I didn’t want to do it but did it anyway… for no reason really. xD





> *Your personality type is: ISTJ*
> *Preference Clarity Categories:*
> _(Slight, Moderate, Clear, Very Clear)_
> 
> ...


It was difficult to get through. Is that your type? I know right now it's "unknown." Does ISTJ make sense for you at all?


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## Candy Apple (Sep 10, 2015)

Doll said:


> That would bother me. Part of me would be flattered that someone was asking about me, but I'd find a way to turn the questions around on them. I just don't reveal a lot about myself to strangers.


Ah! I wish I knew how to turn convos around on people (I find it hard to know what to ask). There was this one time I had a chat with a friend of a friend and wow she was so good at getting me to talk about myself but at the same time it was obvious she didn't want to talk about herself! 

I kinda wish I could just blab on about me - not that it would be particularly interesting (and not that I want to dominate convos) but it's quite an effort to keep everything to myself. I mean the only reason I do it is because people can be judgy asses... otherwise I really do prefer to be an open book. That's the odd part to answer in quizzes and things when they ask questions like are you private, do you find it hard to talk about your feelings? 'Cause really... I wouldn't be private if I didn't feel the need to lol after having to put up with so much consistent crap from people :bored: and my feelings... well honestly I don't find it hard to talk about them at all... so yeah these questions are kinda -_- not very useful for me even though I know why they ask them.



> It was difficult to get through. Is that your type? I know right now it's "unknown." Does ISTJ make sense for you at all?


Yup, ISTJ is my type. I just like to put unknown there.

ISTJ makes complete sense to me. When I first did the test my result was ISTJ and when I read the description only bits of it matched me but it wasn't so little that I didn't think I was an ISTJ. As years went by I'd take the test again and get the same result, read the description again and more of it would match. 

When I was finally able to consistently involve myself in group settings I was able to use my Te and Fi effectively, lending to even more similarities with the ISTJ profile.

There were two times I tested as something else but I knew they were totally off. It was the way I answered questions pertaining to Fi that twisted the results.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Candy Apple said:


> Ah! I wish I knew how to turn convos around on people (I find it hard to know what to ask). There was this one time I had a chat with a friend of a friend and wow she was so good at getting me to talk about myself but at the same time it was obvious she didn't want to talk about herself!


HAHA. I try not to be obvious about it, if I can help it, although really observant people have noticed this. Most come away with the idea that we've had some deep conversation, but they don't really know anything about me.

Of course, I've had connections with a few people that result in me opening up much more quickly than usual. It's an understanding that they are willing and able to see the darker aspects of my personality that I keep buried. I'm eager for that understanding, but I also have the pervasive conviction that it isn't going to happen.



> I kinda wish I could just blab on about me - not that it would be particularly interesting (and not that I want to dominate convos) but it's quite an effort to keep everything to myself. I mean the only reason I do it is because people can be judgy asses... otherwise I really do prefer to be an open book. That's the odd part to answer in quizzes and things when they ask questions like are you private, do you find it hard to talk about your feelings? 'Cause really... I wouldn't be private if I didn't feel the need to lol after having to put up with so much consistent crap from people :bored: and my feelings... well honestly I don't find it hard to talk about them at all... so yeah these questions are kinda -_- not very useful for me even though I know why they ask them.


I don't find it difficult to talk about my feelings, really - at least not in the sense of being unaware of them. I always know how I feel abut something, it's just a matter of allowing these feelings to color my perspective. I don't know if I manage to avoid this or not, but I KNOW how illogical and unstable my feelings are, so I know it's a mistake to make major decisions based off of them. I know well enough to put them aside, but I'm not going to say this effort is successful.



> Yup, ISTJ is my type. I just like to put unknown there.
> 
> ISTJ makes complete sense to me. When I first did the test my result was ISTJ and when I read the description only bits of it matched me but it wasn't so little that I didn't think I was an ISTJ. As years went by I'd take the test again and get the same result, read the description again and more of it would match.
> 
> ...


Yeah. I've gotten INFP, INFJ, ISFP, and with the so-called "more accurate" tests, I generally test as ENTP or ENFP, but moreso the former. It's an interesting piece of a larger puzzle, but definitely not a platform I'd make a solid decision on. I think the Fi/Fe is my sticking point. -_- I know by now that I definitely lead with Ne, but my presentation seems much more internal and aloof than other ENFPs I've seen, who are more gregarious, touchy-feely, and cheerful (although these are probably stereotypes...)


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## Candy Apple (Sep 10, 2015)

@Doll 

I hear a lot of introverts say it's difficult to talk about their feelings, or maybe the more logical ones saying it's hard to talk about feelings and a few of them say they're not in touch with them so I'm guessing that when tests and quizzes say these things, or even descriptions for both introverts and extroverts it's really not always the case.

And I can definitely vouch for ENFPs being touchy-feely! :shocked: -- stop touching me -- :angry::shocked: They're gregarious but cheerful hmm I wouldn't really use that word but something along those lines. xD


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Candy Apple said:


> I hear a lot of introverts say it's difficult to talk about their feelings, or maybe the more logical ones saying it's hard to talk about feelings and a few of them say they're not in touch with them so I'm guessing that when tests and quizzes say these things, or even descriptions for both introverts and extroverts it's really not always the case.


Yeah, I think this is a more introverted thing, because I don't have much trouble talking about my feelings in the right environment/with the right person. Otherwise, I'm very private. 

Something else, I also enjoy playing social games. I did this more as a teenager. I'd pretend to be from another country, or put on accents I didn't really have, and see how others might react to me. I had a strong Southern accent that I learned how to turn off and on. When I was in Germany and we visited Italy, I pretended not to understand a word of Italian (even though I'd taken four years of it), because I wanted to see what they would say _while thinking_ I couldn't understand them. It was always so much fun to end the encounter with a fluid Italian phrase, and then watch the slow dawning of realization on their faces. 



> And I can definitely vouch for ENFPs being touchy-feely! :shocked: -- stop touching me -- :angry::shocked: They're gregarious but cheerful hmm I wouldn't really use that word but something along those lines. xD


Hahaha! I don't mind an ENFP's touchy-feelyness if they're my friend. ENFPs also have the rare gift of drawing me out and making me feel comfortable.


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## Candy Apple (Sep 10, 2015)

Doll said:


> Yeah, I think this is a more introverted thing, because I don't have much trouble talking about my feelings in the right environment/with the right person. Otherwise, I'm very private.


True, makes sense that it's more of an introverted thing.



> Something else, I also enjoy playing social games. I did this more as a teenager. I'd pretend to be from another country, or put on accents I didn't really have, and see how others might react to me. I had a strong Southern accent that I learned how to turn off and on. When I was in Germany and we visited Italy, I pretended not to understand a word of Italian (even though I'd taken four years of it), because I wanted to see what they would say _while thinking_ I couldn't understand them. It was always so much fun to end the encounter with a fluid Italian phrase, and then watch the slow dawning of realization on their faces.


That's funny. :laughing: I'd like to see that happen one day.



> Hahaha! I don't mind an ENFP's touchy-feelyness if they're my friend. ENFPs also have the rare gift of drawing me out and making me feel comfortable.


I still mind if they're my friend. To me it seems unnecessary. xD Like... why'd you feel the need to touch my shoulder? Or if you're going to leave why must you touch my shoulder? :laughing: I get that maybe they want to feel connected but argh LOL. ESFPs do this too.

But yes they definitely make me feel comfortable too, it's such a noticeable quality in them! Part way through the convo I find myself thinking... why am I talking about this? How on earth did you somehow make me think it was okay to talk about this? Why are you even listening to this? How did you even get to this topic? :laughing:


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## Candy Apple (Sep 10, 2015)

@Doll I actually don't see how 4w3 wouldn't fit, especially given the current fight you have with Fi/Fe.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Candy Apple said:


> @*Doll* I actually don't see how 4w3 wouldn't fit, especially given the current fight you have with Fi/Fe.


That's exactly it. I can't relate to being disconnected from my emotions, but I also _can_ relate to the awareness of using and/or manipulating the people in my external environment. I feel that I'm better at reading and gauging other people/situations than most are. 

So reading Fi/Fe, it's like... "...both, but..."


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## Candy Apple (Sep 10, 2015)

Doll said:


> That's exactly it. I can't relate to being disconnected from my emotions, but I also can relate to the awareness of using and/or manipulating the people in my external environment. I feel that I'm better at reading and gauging other people/situations than most are.
> 
> So reading Fi/Fe, it's like... "...both, but..."


Then disregard being disconnected from emotions as something to rule anything out as I think we've both found it's not the case. The awareness of changing the external environment is Fe. And about feeling you're better at gauging the situation... I find that both Fi and Fe users are good at gauging the situation (better when it's higher in the stack) but I think the difference is - at least this is what I've noticed in myself, I usually don't know how to react then and there to the situation I see. I usually won't do anything or if I do do something, I try to relate an experience I've had, back to them (which is an Fi trait). Fe users are more adept at reacting then and there and catering to that need. Even if by lightening the atmosphere (I think perhaps they draw solutions from what's around them more?). They actively want to do something with the atmosphere whereas Fi users don't mind the atmosphere so much.

Sure, dom and aux Fi and Fe users do not want disharmony but the ways they go about achieving it is different. Fi doms are pushy when it comes to exerting their values onto others (in a kind of covered up way but is actually really obvious to everyone), yet they still value everyone's individuality and know that others have their own values so they promote that in 'harmony' as in they like to reiterate to everyone that so and so has this belief, another so and so has that belief, etc.

I'm not exactly sure how Fe doms go about it... but I know they'd rather go with the collective value of a group.

Fi is more about singularity (as in everyone is unique and let's keep it that way) and Fe is about groups/majority (can we try to balance it all out and get everyone to fit/cooperate?). I think that's the overall attitude.

Yet I think a difference is that Fi dom and aux feed their values / give life to those values / involve themselves with those values so it's usually some humanitarian thing. As a tertiary Fi user I believe I do that too but not to the same extent as them.

I'm not sure if I'm correct here but Fe doms and aux seem to concentrate on actual relationships between people.

And you can definitely still use either one it's just about which one you prefer to use most of the time. That said I feel I'm pretty incapable of Fe though. xD

@*Happy29* @*IrisWonderwall* Hey! Maybe you both can help confirm what on earth Fe is and remove some misconceptions I/we might have? xD!


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Candy Apple said:


> Fe users are more adept at reacting then and there and catering to that need. Even if by lightening the atmosphere (I think perhaps they draw solutions from what's around them more?). They actively want to do something with the atmosphere whereas Fi users don't mind the atmosphere so much.


I've definitely done this, but on the forum and off.



> Sure, dom and aux Fi and Fe users do not want disharmony but the ways they go about achieving it is different. Fi doms are pushy when it comes to exerting their values onto others (in a kind of covered up way but is actually really obvious to everyone), yet they still value everyone's individuality and know that others have their own values so they promote that in 'harmony' as in they like to reiterate to everyone that so and so has this belief, another so and so has that belief, etc.


I definitely don't do this. I don't have a strong value system or belief system and for me, everything is open to interpretation, so when I meet someone and they tell me their belief, I want to pick their brains about it and know why they believe it. Then I'll offer contrary beliefs, even if they aren't mine lmao, just to see how they'll respond to them. 



> I'm not exactly sure how Fe doms go about it... but I know they'd rather go with the collective value of a group.


I find this a hard thing to relate to because I'm resistant to going along with a value just because it is a collective value. I think that's what I get the impression of when I read about Fe being for the good of the group, which seems limiting to me, because it doesn't take all the parts into consideration. It seems an overall impression.

I value uniqueness and individuality, so whenever I see anything about groups I'm immediately eh about it.



> Fi is more about singularity (as in everyone is unique and let's keep it that way) and Fe is about groups/majority (can we try to balance it all out and get everyone to fit/cooperate?). I think that's the overall attitude.


In this I'd relate more to Fi. Ugh. I'm so srs, I could probably create my own function that's a mix of these two.



> Yet I think a difference is that Fi dom and aux feed their values / give life to those values / involve themselves with those values so it's usually some humanitarian thing. As a tertiary Fi user I believe I do that too but not to the same extent as them.


I deeefinitely do not relate to this. I don't have a humanitarian bone in my body. I'm like a textbook Slytherin, if such a thing existed. One day I heard people screaming right outside my workplace, my employees (I'm the HR Manager), and I was like "nope, I don't want to get involved in that." Then another girl heard it and came to my door all concerned, so I was like well shit, I guess I have to do my job now.



> I'm not sure if I'm correct here but Fe doms and aux seem to concentrate on actual relationships between people.


I do this.



> Fi is detached in a sense and Fe is attached.


I'm both again, depending on the situation.



> And you can definitely still use either one it's just about which one you prefer to use most of the time. That said I feel I'm pretty incapable of Fe though. xD


I often score about equal when it comes to the function tests on Fi/Fe, usually higher on Fi, but I think it's the high score on Ti that always swings those tests to ENTP territory.


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## Candy Apple (Sep 10, 2015)

Extraverted Feeling (or Fe): 


1.) I look for and identify group norms
2.) I internalise cultural values and make them my own
3.) I know what is appropriate behaviour in a given culture or situation and act accordingly
4). Because I consider it important I establish and build relationships with other people
5.) I build relationships by disclosing things about myself
6.) In order to maintain or establish relationships with other people I act to meet their needs
7.) I organise the external world to support group harmony
8.) I assess other peoples emotional states by watching their behaviour
9.) I will do just about anything to maintain relationships with others who matter to me even if this creates internal tension for me
11.) I judge my own and other peoples behaviour according to cultural norms
12.) I attempt to educate others as to the appropriate behaviours that will help them fit in


Introverted Feeling (or Fi): 


1.) I subjectively use my emotions to inform me of what is important to me
2.) I seek to know what is truly important to me, my deeply held values
3.) I am aware of universal personal values
4.) I maintain internal harmony and personal integrity by adhering to my deeply held values
5.) I know what is truly important to me and use this knowledge to guide decisions
6.) I value all living things, attempting to allow each to maintain its own integrity
7.) I assess other people's emotional states by reading my own internal reactions.
8.) I judge ideas, attitudes and behaviours according to my values
9.) I crusade for what is right even if it creates tension with the external world and may endanger a personal relationship

I forgot I had this list lying around.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Extraverted Feeling (or Fe): 

*1.) I look for and identify group norms*
2.) I internalise cultural values and make them my own
*3.) I know what is appropriate behaviour in a given culture or situation and act accordingly*
*4). Because I consider it important I establish and build relationships with other people*
5.) I build relationships by disclosing things about myself
6.) In order to maintain or establish relationships with other people I act to meet their needs
7.) I organise the external world to support group harmony
*8.) I assess other peoples emotional states by watching their behaviour*
*9.) I will do just about anything to maintain relationships with others who matter to me even if this creates internal tension for me*
*11.) I judge my own and other peoples behaviour according to cultural norms (whether or not it's legal, lol, although I don't really "judge" at all.)*
*12.) I attempt to educate others as to the appropriate behaviours that will help them fit in (I tried to talk to this badly behaving actress in a show with me, because I could sense her ridiculousness was about to get her fired. She didn't listen. She got fired.)*

Introverted Feeling (or Fi): 

*1.) I subjectively use my emotions to inform me of what is important to me*
2.) I seek to know what is truly important to me, my deeply held values (I don't really SEEK this, unless you'd consider identity to be a value.)
3.) I am aware of universal personal values
4.) I maintain internal harmony and personal integrity by adhering to my deeply held values
*5.) I know what is truly important to me and use this knowledge to guide decisions
6.) I value all living things, attempting to allow each to maintain its own integrity*
*7.) I assess other people's emotional states by reading my own internal reactions.*
8.) I judge ideas, attitudes and behaviours according to my values
9.) I crusade for what is right even if it creates tension with the external world and may endanger a personal relationship


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## Candy Apple (Sep 10, 2015)

Doll said:


> I definitely don't do this. I don't have a strong value system or belief system and for me, everything is open to interpretation, so when I meet someone and they tell me their belief, I want to pick their brains about it and know why they believe it. Then I'll offer contrary beliefs, even if they aren't mind, just to see how they'll respond to them.


Could be Fi but when you say "open to interpretation" I feel as though that's your Ti kicking in. Because Fi values are not really 'open to interpretation' it's more 'everyone has their own'. When you say you want to pick their brain about it that's got nothing to do with Fi necessarily, it's got to do with your Ti and Ne. If someone tells me their values I will not necessarily ask them about it just to see why they believe it.

When you offer contrary beliefs, that's just your Ne kicking in their your Ti 'to see how they'll respond'.



> I find this a hard thing to relate to because I'm resistant to going along with a value just because it is a collective value. I think that's what I get the impression of when I read about Fe being for the good of the group, which seems limiting to me, because it doesn't take all the parts into consideration. It seems an overall impression.


Ah I see. I think that's mainly because you have a Ti bias, whereas a dom Fe user isn't going to have that. That's why you have this pull in a slightly different direction.



> I value uniqueness and individuality, so whenever I see anything about groups I'm immediately eh about it.


Definitely Fi. But would you say you'd rather everyone be the way they are and value what they want or would you rather some kind of conformity? I guess I don't really know how to ask this question well but I guess if you refer to the 2 lists below you might get what I'm trying to ask... 



> In this I'd relate more to Fi. Ugh. I'm so srs, I could probably create my own function that's a mix of these two.


You don't really need to because you can use both. Also it doesn't matter because you've already said you use Ti over any F function. That said, it literally rules out the only other type possibility of ENFP. So if you have a discrepancy within your ENTP function stack, you're just going to have to 'ignore' it as the functions you do display will not fit into any other type's function stack. An example... say INTP because they use Ti and Ne (which would also mean you'd then be an introvert) - they have inferior Fe - meaning in theory, their Fi is the shittest function for them. xD Which would not help your point or struggle!
@*Doll* 
EDIT: So I just read this: "I think you are likely an INTP, with well developed feelings (Fi). For an INTP my Fi and Ni are also well developed, you know you are not bound to suck at your inferior functions for life, you can consciously improve them."

From #20

So it either means it's possible you're an INTP if it's possible you're an introvert and haven't ruled it out but it would be odd because your Si score is very low, or it could confirm that having well developed in Fi as an ENTP is absolutely fine (even though you relate to resisting Fe)? 



> I deeefinitely do not relate to this. I don't have a humanitarian bone in my body.


Which is why I've been suspecting Fe all along. You seem to care about relationship more than a cause (cause as in humanitarian not cause and effect). 



> I'm both again, depending on the situation.


lol I erased this part. I guess I'll explain what I meant... Fi detached as in they're looking internally at their views and projecting their own causes, outside - which can be group like _but _they're picking out or singling out different groups - not involving simply_ everyone/anyone; _they're quite selective.

Fe attached as in they're looking externally and trying to fix/adjust the emotional environment around them. I believe Fe doms would want to connect to or affect as many people as possible - the people they come into contact with.



> I often score about equal when it comes to the function tests on Fi/Fe, usually higher on Fi, but I think it's the high score on Ti that always swings those tests to ENTP territory.


Yeah! It's definitely the Ti that swings it.


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## Candy Apple (Sep 10, 2015)

@Doll 
Extraverted Feeling (or Fe): 

*1.) I look for and identify group norms*
2.) I internalise cultural values and make them my own
*3.) I know what is appropriate behaviour in a given culture or situation and act accordingly*
*4). Because I consider it important I establish and build relationships with other people*
5.) I build relationships by disclosing things about myself
6.) In order to maintain or establish relationships with other people I act to meet their needs
7.) I organise the external world to support group harmony
*8.) I assess other peoples emotional states by watching their behaviour*
*9.) I will do just about anything to maintain relationships with others who matter to me even if this creates internal tension for me *Points 1, 3, 4, 8, all coincide with 9. And the main thing here is that you'll do just about anything to maintain relationships even if it *creates internal tension *in you. Then if you look at point 1 in Fi section - an Fi user will take that info and keep to it as much as they can - they cannot stand going against their value even for the sake of others. They will rather have tension externally, than internally (because they'll feel great betrayal towards themselves/their value) though they'd rather no tension at all! That's the main divide between Fe and Fi.
*11.) I judge my own and other peoples behaviour according to cultural norms (whether or not it's legal, lol, although I don't really "judge" at all.) *I get what you mean by the judge word lol. It's more like 'weigh up'.
*12.) I attempt to educate others as to the appropriate behaviours that will help them fit in (I tried to talk to this badly behaving actress in a show with me, because I could sense her ridiculousness was about to get her fired. She didn't listen. She got fired.)*

Introverted Feeling (or Fi): 

*1.) I subjectively use my emotions to inform me of what is important to me*
2.) I seek to know what is truly important to me, my deeply held values (I don't really SEEK this, unless you'd consider identity to be a value.)
3.) I am aware of universal personal values
4.) I maintain internal harmony and personal integrity by adhering to my deeply held values
*5.) I know what is truly important to me and use this knowledge to guide decisions
6.) I value all living things, attempting to allow each to maintain its own integrity *​How much would you say you keep to this vs point 12 in Fe? Which one do you gravitate to more or is it very situational based?
*7.) I assess other people's emotional states by reading my own internal reactions.*
8.) I judge ideas, attitudes and behaviours according to my values
9.) I crusade for what is right even if it creates tension with the external world and may endanger a personal relationship


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Candy Apple said:


> Could be Fi but when you say "open to interpretation" I feel as though that's your Ti kicking in. Because Fi values are not really 'open to interpretation' it's more 'everyone has their own'. When you say you want to pick their brain about it that's got nothing to do with Fi necessarily, it's got to do with your Ti and Ne. If someone tells me their values I will not necessarily ask them about it just to see why they believe it.


That makes sense.



> When you offer contrary beliefs, that's just your Ne kicking in their your Ti 'to see how they'll respond'.


Hahaha yes. I tend to lose interest if I meet someone not willing to bounce ideas back to me, or offer a good enough argument to keep me going. It's "too easy."



> Ah I see. I think that's mainly because you have a Ti bias, whereas a dom Fe user isn't going to have that. That's why you have this pull in a slightly different direction.


The pull is definitely a feeling I can relate to.



> Definitely Fi. But would you say you'd rather everyone be the way they are and value what they want or would you rather some kind of conformity? I guess I don't really know how to ask this question well but I guess if you refer to the 2 lists below you might get what I'm trying to ask...


I'm not necessarily insisting on conformity. I do believe that everyone should be who they are and not undermine themselves, but if it reaches the point where it's hurting them or hurting others, I would say something. It isn't necessarily because I feel bad for that person themselves - sometimes I don't even like them - but it IS to ease the tension, because a tense atmosphere (unless it's the right sort of tension) isn't something I generally enjoy. That's why I relate to the idea of easing the mood in the room.



> You don't really need to because you can use both. Also it doesn't matter because you've already said you use Ti over any F function. That said, it literally rules out the only other type possibility of ENFP. So if you have a discrepancy within your ENTP function stack, you're just going to have to 'ignore' it as the functions you do display will not fit into any other type's function stack. An example... say INTP because they use Ti and Ne (which would also mean you'd then be an introvert) - they have inferior Fe - meaning in theory, their Fi is the shittest function for them. xD Which would not help your point or struggle!


Omggg.



> @*Doll*
> EDIT: So I just read this: "I think you are likely an INTP, with well developed feelings (Fi). For an INTP my Fi and Ni are also well developed, you know you are not bound to suck at your inferior functions for life, you can consciously improve them."


My dad is most definitely an INTP. Idk if I'm an introvert, because I most definitely have an awareness of others, even though I'm equally as aware of my own feelings, so this might take some close study. I'm not ruling out the possibility though.




> So it either means it's possible you're an INTP if it's possible you're an introvert and haven't ruled it out but it would be odd because your Si score is very low, or it could confirm that having well developed in Fi as an ENTP is absolutely fine (even though you relate to resisting Fe)?



Yeah. What does it mean to relate to resisting Fe? I don't know what type that corresponds to, lol... still learning. 



> Which is why I've been suspecting Fe all along. You seem to care about relationship more than a cause (cause as in humanitarian not cause and effect).


That is true.



> lol I erased this part. I guess I'll explain what I meant... Fi detached as in they're looking internally at their views and projecting their own causes, outside - which can be group like _but _they're picking out or singling out different groups - not involving simply_ everyone/anyone; _they're quite selective.


Ohhhhhh I see. Okay okay. I definitely do this. I'm VERY selective and I think that might be confusing me, too. If I hone in on someone, it's over. 

I think what makes it difficult for me to relate to Fe is that, on the outside, it looks more "Selfless" than the Fi function, and I've always viewed myself as a selfish person who only cared about my own feelings. I think I have to drop the stereotype that an ENTP/INTP are not aware of their own feelings.



> Fe attached as in they're looking externally and trying to fix/adjust the emotional environment around them. I believe Fe doms would want to connect to or affect as many people as possible - the people they come into contact with.


I do like affecting people. It's one of the reasons why I'm in theater. I get a high off of moving people in the crowd, or impressing them (w3 for enneagram). Type 3 would correspond more to the "thinking" types, and 4 to the "feeling", so 4w3s are always conflicted in this area.



> Points 1, 3, 4, 8, all coincide with 9. And the main thing here is that you'll do just about anything to maintain relationships even if it *creates internal tension *in you. Then if you look at point 1 in Fi section - an Fi user will take that info and keep to it as much as they can - they cannot stand going against their value even for the sake of others. They will rather have tension externally, than internally (because they'll feel great betrayal towards themselves/their value) though they'd rather no tension at all! That's the main divide between Fe and Fi.



Definitely relate more to Fe on this one. I have a lot of internal tension and I don't usually mind it. External tension is something I unconsciously smooth over.



> How much would you say you keep to this vs point 12 in Fe? Which one do you gravitate to more or is it very situational based?



Situational based. Like the above example, I wouldn't try to suggest anyone change their behavior unless they were causing massive issues. The actress I mentioned before was creating a LOT of tension between the other actors and no one would confront her on her behavior. She was treating them badly. I guess it goes back to the "do no harm" type thing. I'm not generally the protective type, but a lot of these people I did care about because I worked with them, so I felt like I should try and step up and fix the situation.

But I wouldn't just randomly approach someone and try to help fix their social image, or think their behavior should be corrected if they aren't hurting anyone.

Thanks for all your responses, they're really helping a lot.


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## dizzycactus (Sep 9, 2012)

You probably also have to consider that you're comparing weak Fe to strong Fi, so you might not even associate much with Fe to start with, or be opposed to it but for different reasons that Fi would be. 

For example, a Ti dom is opposed to Fe notions that everyone should follow a social norm for the sake of it because of group harmony, because Ti's attitude is that it restrict's people's independence, and subscribes a code of conduct that is non-negotiable and based purely on group consensus, whereas to Ti an unpopular but logical view should be given more credence than a popular but stupid view. 

But, since a Ti dom will still have some Fe, they're not opposed to group harmony itself, only when this comes at the expense of individual independence and logic. When it does, then they'll feel like speaking up is necessary, but find it simultaneously uncomfortable. To them, an ideal scenario is that a group advocates for group-think to force people to follow an illogical idea. We speak up, they see the logic, decide that it wasn't such a good idea after all, stop trying to force a group-think, and we can retreat back into the background and stop making a fuss. Of course, it never acts out that way, but we're still a bit surprised each time when people seem resistant to logic lol. 

Fi will also oppose this, but because it will cover individual identity. Ti doesn't really care about identity, it just cares that you're permitted to act freely. Therefore it doesn't care what identity people want to assume for themselves so long as they don't try to use it to control or compel others.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

dizzycactus said:


> You probably also have to consider that you're comparing weak Fe to strong Fi, so you might not even associate much with Fe to start with, or be opposed to it but for different reasons that Fi would be.
> 
> For example, a Ti dom is opposed to *Fe notions that everyone should follow a social norm for the sake of it because of group harmony, because Ti's attitude is that restrict's people's independence, and subscribes a code of conduct that is non-negotiable and based purely on group consensus, whereas to Ti an unpopular but logical view should be given more credence than a popular but stupid view. But, since a Ti dom will still have some Fe, they're not opposed to group harmony itself, only when this comes at the expense of individual independence and logic. *
> 
> Fi will also oppose this, but because it will cover individual identity. Ti doesn't really care about identity, it just *cares that you're permitted to act freely. Therefore it doesn't care what identity people want to assume for themselves so long as they don't try to use it to control or compel others.*


All that bolded is exactly me. 

The part about identity is difficult for me. I care about _my own_ identity and think about it a lot, but as far as the identity of others? No. If it starts to interfere in a negative way, however, it does cross that line.


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## dizzycactus (Sep 9, 2012)

Doll said:


> All that bolded is exactly me.
> 
> The part about identity is difficult for me. I care about _my own_ identity and think about it a lot, but as far as the identity of others? No. If it starts to interfere in a negative way, however, it does cross that line.


hmm, I guess I think of my identity too quite a lot. I never really thought of it in the same way others define identity, though. They seem to just define it as race/sexuality/economic background/gender etc. I see lots of people with funny hair or clothes or whatever because they're "expressing their identity". I don't do any of that. But I do think in terms of "Who am I? What drives me? What am I really good and bad at? How do I relate to people?" and MBTI has answered many of those questions, if only because I match pretty much every INTP profile almost perfectly. For me, it's more like understanding myself than carving a niche into society to insert myself, and assuming that identity within it.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

dizzycactus said:


> hmm, I guess I think of my identity too quite a lot. I never really thought of it in the same way others define identity, though. They seem to just define it as race/sexuality/economic background/gender etc. I see lots of people with funny hair or clothes or whatever because they're "expressing their identity". I don't do any of that. But I do think in terms of "Who am I? What drives me? What am I really good and bad at? How do I relate to people?" and MBTI has answered many of those questions, if only because I match pretty much every INTP profile almost perfectly. For me, it's more like understanding myself than carving a niche into society to insert myself, and assuming that identity within it.


That's exactly how I look at my own identity. It isn't always about hair or makeup or clothes, although I do those things to express myself, but it doesn't truly reflect who I am; not fully, at least. I also don't judge who someone is based on what they wear, because I know they're only projecting a desired image. Sometimes I find them more interesting people, however. 

The part about understanding myself rather than finding how to fit in is definitely something I want to do, although I find myself conforming in certain ways to societal expectations, at least more so than I would want. I also flock to hobbies that require a certain type of exposure and attention. A lot of people might look at me and interact with me and assume I'm a feeler, because I have a lot of depth of feeling and I'm not uncomfortable talking about my feelings (with certain people, not random strangers), but reading about Ti, I realize that everything I do is filtered through that lens to some degree.

Edit: Also @nádej, if you have any input I would love to know. I'm happy to see you around the forum again!


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

@*Doll*

A few thoughts off the top of my head:

- You are waaaay too internally oriented IMO to be a Fe user. From what I've seen, you tend to be too overwhelmed with your own emotions to care about maintaining the groups' harmony. I rarely see you overextend yourself, or be attuned to other people's emotions, or feelings. The things you mentioned like paying attention to group norms, or paying attention to what's appropriate is ultimately for your own _internal_ feeling of authenticity, of fitting in, rather than for the sake of the group. Fe users seem to be very unaware of their own emotions, and very attuned to other people's, and I see the exact opposite from you. 

- I'm a Fi user, and I wouldn't consider myself to live according to my values, morals or ethics. Fi is at its core a function that's all about personal impressions, finding meaning, likes and dislikes. Asking yourself "Does this feel like me? What does it say about me? What would I do in this situation? How do I feel about this?".

Here's a good description of Fi:



> Things tend to resonate with me as truth immediately, and further reflection and analyzing sort of fits it into already existing beliefs, or susses out why it resonates as truth. Most everything is personal in some sense....I have to relate it to myself to understand it on a level where I can decide if it is right or wrong. That relating and evaluating is not done in such a linear manner though. As mentioned, often I start with the feeling and work through the "why" afterwards. It's a bit holistic and exploratory, like starting with a lump of clay and shaping it until it's a form you can name - it's not an exact science, but an art.
> 
> There is also a welling up of feeling - not emotion, but just a feeling that says "this is me, or what I believe, or an idea I feel is worthwhile" and it can be felt in a mood, an image, a melody, a phrase, etc. When I come across a way to reflect that feeling externally, I will feel immediately, "this is how the feeling must be expressed".
> 
> Fi evaluates to determine significance/meaning based on an internal measure. This internal measure is an imagined ideal. Basically, the Fi-dom hones these concepts of the ideal by imagining scenarios & using their response to them to gauge their significance. The ideals formed are basically fundamental concepts of the human condition & what is good/necessary in relation to it. Fi reasoning is focused on perfecting concepts of what is harmonious, ethical, aesthetically valuable, perfect, etc. This means feeling is turned inward, and even emotion is internalized as a part of a process of refining what is ideal. There is little interest to affect others with their feelings. Attempts to relate feelings to the world are done by perceiving....in the case of the INFP, that's Ne.


Tell me what you think?


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

To explain further, the way I understand Fi values, is not in a strict "this is right" vs "this is wrong" feeling - and I think that's what you seem to be getting hung up on when you think of Fi. In a few raaaare occasions, I'll have that reaction, but not often enough to be significant. I think it's because we are both 9 fixed, and we don't really relate to having a strong ethical code, or anything like that. Morality for me is not something I spend an awful amount of time thinking about. It's a lot more subtle than that most times. It's about feeling like this fits, this feels like me, I believe this, I like this, or I dislike that.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

fleur du mal said:


> A few thoughts off the top of my head:
> 
> - You are waaaay too internally oriented IMO to be a Fe user. From what I've seen, you tend to be too overwhelmed with your own emotions to care about maintaining the groups' harmony. I rarely see you overextend yourself, or be attuned to other people's emotions, or feelings. *The things you mentioned like paying attention to group norms, or paying attention to what's appropriate is ultimately for your own internal feeling of authenticity, of fitting in, rather than for the sake of the group. Fe users seem to be very unaware of their own emotions, and very attuned to other people's, and I see the exact opposite from you. *
> 
> ...


This is like me if I'm feeling an emotion that's very overwhelming. I feel it, and then I quickly try to explain why it's there. I am definitely not disconnected with my feelings - far from it, as you know.  And you know me very well!!

_



There is also a welling up of feeling - not emotion, but just a feeling that says *"this is me*, or what I believe, or an idea I feel is worthwhile" and it can be felt in a mood, an image, a melody, a phrase, etc. When I come across a way to reflect that feeling externally, I will feel immediately, "this is how the feeling must be expressed".

Click to expand...

_


> *Fi *_*evaluates to determine significance/meaning based on an internal measure. This internal measure is an imagined ideal. *Basically, the Fi-dom hones these concepts of the ideal by imagining scenarios & using their response to them to gauge their significance. The ideals formed are basically fundamental concepts of the human condition & what is good/necessary in relation to it. Fi reasoning is focused on perfecting concepts of what is harmonious, ethical, *aesthetically valuable*, perfect, etc. *This means feeling is turned inward, and even emotion is internalized as a part of a process of refining what is ideal.* There is little interest to affect others with their feelings. Attempts to relate feelings to the world are done by perceiving....in the case of the INFP, that's Ne._
> 
> Tell me what you think?


I bolded everything I related to without question. There are a few things I'm uncertain about, but I definitely can't deny that I have Fi. Even in tests, it's clear my Fi is higher than my Fe - which is way undeveloped.

I think my next question would be, is it possible to have well-developed Fi as an ENTP or INTP? 



fleur du mal said:


> To explain further, the way I understand Fi values, is not in a strict "this is right" vs "this is wrong" feeling - and I think that's what you seem to be getting hung up on when you think of Fi. In a few raaaare occasions, I'll have that reaction, but not often enough to be significant. I think it's because we are both 9 fixed, and we don't really relate to having a strong ethical code, or anything like that. Morality for me is not something I spend an awful amount of time thinking about. It's a lot more subtle than that most times. It's about feeling like this fits, *this feels like me*, I believe this, I like this, or I dislike that.


What I relate most to is the, "this feels like me", which is when I identify with art, fictional characters, idealized images, ect.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

@Witch of Certainty - not trying to call you out or anything, but I see you're browsing this thread and you're an ENFP that I relate to. How do you relate to and experience Fi? 

And @nádej, you're an ENFP 4w3, and OP is a 4w3 as well. How do you define or experience Fi? How would you describe the difference between Fe and Fi? The reason I am asking is because I believe the 3 wing can bring about behaviors that may seem Fe-like on the surface.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

fleur du mal said:


> @*Witch of Certainty* - not trying to call you out or anything, but I see you're browsing this thread and you're an ENFP that I relate to. How do you relate to and experience Fi?
> 
> And @*nádej*, you're an ENFP 4w3, and OP is a 4w3 as well. How do you define or experience Fi? How would you describe the difference between Fe and Fi? The reason I am asking is because I believe the 3 wing can bring about behaviors that may seem Fe-like on the surface.


YES. This is my question. I think I have both Fe/Fi, but the w3 is making me confuse them, and I'm hoping the 4 isn't also making me confuse Fi, because I can relate to both functions (depending on the description), and then sometimes I can relate to neither.

TY!!!!!


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Doll said:


> What I relate most to is the, "this feels like me", which is when I identify with art, fictional characters, idealized images, ect.


Can you elaborate on this? Can you share what art or fictional characters feel more like you, and write about that? Go into as much detail as you want. <3


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## Blue Ribbon (Sep 4, 2016)

fleur du mal said:


> @Witch of Certainty - not trying to call you out or anything, but I see you're browsing this thread and you're an ENFP that I relate to. How do you relate to and experience Fi?
> 
> And @nádej, you're an ENFP 4w3, and OP is a 4w3 as well. How do you define or experience Fi? How would you describe the difference between Fe and Fi? The reason I am asking is because I believe the 3 wing can bring about behaviors that may seem Fe-like on the surface.


OMG I was just about to respooond. How did you?! Magic I say


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

fleur du mal said:


> Can you elaborate on this? Can you share what art or fictional characters feel more like you, and write about that? Go into as much detail as you want. <3


Well, it falls more into the lines of wanting to emulate, wanting to be more interesting or more unique. I admire people who have made some sort of infamy for themselves and who will never die. The fictional characters I like are often misunderstood and universally hated, but I enjoy identifying with and understanding why they do what they do, and how they're actually sympathetic characters. 

My first big obsession was _The Phantom of the Opera_ - before that was "The Nightmare Before Christmas" (I was in 4th grade ok). I love the antihero. I saw myself as the outsider, the ugly one, and then I sought to own that image and find it in people who were beautiful, loved, and desired.


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## Blue Ribbon (Sep 4, 2016)

@Doll if your an ENFP you should be havind very good Fe and Fi. If you're a feeling type in general, both feeling functions would be pretty well developed. It makes sense since one is a brake of sorts for the other - like a fall back mechanism. Like me Fe making sure I don't hurt others to get what I want or an ENFJ's Fi making sure he doesn't hurt himself by helping others. It isn't voluntary - it just comes out every once in a while and I can't control it. If you say you have one high and the other low, I automatically think you're a thinking type. How good are your Ti and Te?


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Witch of Certainty said:


> @*Doll* if your an ENFP you should be havind very good Fe and Fi. If you're a feeling type in general, both feeling functions would be pretty well developed. It makes sense since one is a brake of sorts for the other - like a fall back mechanism. Like me Fe making sure I don't hurt others to get what I want or an ENFJ's Fi making sure he doesn't hurt himself by helping others. It isn't voluntary - it just comes out every once in a while and I can't control it. If you say you have one high and the other low, I automatically think you're a thinking type. How good are your Ti and Te?


I'm not sure about Te, but my Ti is always ridiculously high when I do tests. I filter a lot of things through Ti, or at least I've learned that I do. If it impacts me emotionally it's a more difficult thing to do, but I'm able to look at the situation and figure out what needs to be done, while setting aside emotions, and then later it'll hit me. 

I had a distressing situation last night that involved me having to go in and take care of my brother. My mom was too upset to handle it, and it was an upsetting situation, but I was able to manipulate him/lie to him/calm him down/do what needed to be done. I knew how to approach him and de-escalate the situation, so in crisis mode I fall into someone who is oddly efficient and even cold, but I know it'll all bite me in the ass eventually.


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## dizzycactus (Sep 9, 2012)

Doll said:


> I'm not sure about Te, but my Ti is always ridiculously high when I do tests. I filter a lot of things through Ti, or at least I've learned that I do. If it impacts me emotionally it's a more difficult thing to do, but I'm able to look at the situation and figure out what needs to be done, while setting aside emotions, and then later it'll hit me.
> 
> I had a distressing situation last night that involved me having to go in and take care of my brother. My mom was too upset to handle it, and it was an upsetting situation, but I was able to manipulate him/lie to him/calm him down/do what needed to be done. I knew how to approach him and de-escalate the situation, so in crisis mode I fall into someone who is oddly efficient and even cold, but I know it'll all bite me in the ass eventually.


I've had times before when I've been under a lot of stress and being demanded to deliver, and I practically turn into an ENTJ, suddenly becoming ruthlessly efficient, scheduling, prioritising, directing, planning. I think it's a defense mechanism.


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## Blue Ribbon (Sep 4, 2016)

Doll said:


> I'm not sure about Te, but my Ti is always ridiculously high when I do tests. I filter a lot of things through Ti, or at least I've learned that I do. If it impacts me emotionally it's a more difficult thing to do, but I'm able to look at the situation and figure out what needs to be done, while setting aside emotions, and then later it'll hit me.
> 
> I had a distressing situation last night that involved me having to go in and take care of my brother. My mom was too upset to handle it, and it was an upsetting situation, but I was able to manipulate him/lie to him/calm him down/do what needed to be done. I knew how to approach him and de-escalate the situation, so in crisis mode I fall into someone who is oddly efficient and even cold, but I know it'll all bite me in the ass eventually.


Well, Fi is a very instinctive function. When I feel it, it's a gut feeling. I never question my Fi. I often feel like I need to feel things out. I'm not afraid of emotional intensity despite being a 9 and being apathetic isn't all that hard for me. Fi is about how I relate the world around me to myself. ENFPs are also Ti PoLR which would mean that I suck at Ti. But the same goes with ENTPs with Fi. 

When I read your OP I just thought you were a dominant perceiving type but I could be wrong. Have you considered INTP or INFP? If not, I'd consider INFJ since INFJs have good Fi, Fe, Ne and decent Ti but I think INxP is a better fit.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

dizzycactus said:


> I've had times before when I've been under a lot of stress and being demanded to deliver, and I practically turn into an ENTJ, suddenly becoming ruthlessly efficient, scheduling, prioritising, directing, planning. I think it's a defense mechanism.


I definitely do this. It's like shut down mode. My mom was much more distressed than I had a right to be, even though he's my brother, so I was focusing on making things easier for her and taking charge of the situation. It was also difficult to be TOO upset about what he was doing. I was really upset at the beginning, but as soon as I told himself that it was his mental illness, it made it very bearable.


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## Candy Apple (Sep 10, 2015)

I'm glad these people are helping you out. It beats having to explain functions out of my realm. roud:

About resisting Fe - could you go back to your other thread and read within the first few posts from narcissistic / witch of brit. You bolded a section where you related to it. That explains what it feels like for an ENTP resisting Fe and does not then mean that you're some other type or something. I as an ISTJ could resist one of my functions too.

But it's good to have an INTP here to relate INTPness vs ENTPness xD.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Witch of Certainty said:


> Well, Fi is a very instinctive function. When I feel it, it's a gut feeling. I never question my Fi. I often feel like I need to feel things out. I'm not afraid of emotional intensity despite being a 9 and being apathetic isn't all that hard for me. Fi is about how I relate the world around me to myself. ENFPs are also Ti PoLR which would mean that I suck at Ti. But the same goes with ENTPs with Fi.


I question everything. I don't suck at Fi, though. Emotional intensity is something I enjoy, but I'm very selective about who I feel that way about - and it's usually a who, not a what, aside from personal identity issues.



> When I read your OP I just thought you were a dominant perceiving type but I could be wrong. Have you considered INTP or INFP? If not, I'd consider INFJ since INFJs have good Fi, Fe, Ne and decent Ti but I think INxP is a better fit.


I used to consider INFP/INFJ, but I'm not sure how well that would fit me.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Candy Apple said:


> I'm glad these people are helping you out. It beats having to explain functions out of my realm. roud:
> 
> About resisting Fe - could you go back to your other thread and read within the first few posts from narcissistic / witch of brit. You bolded a section where you related to it. That explains what it feels like for an ENTP resisting Fe and does not then mean that you're some other type or something. I as an ISTJ could resist one of my functions too.
> 
> But it's good to have an INTP here to relate INTPness vs ENTPness xD.


That definitely does make me wonder. I also resisted to whatever the "loop" is for ENTPs, although I am reluctant to type based on unhealthy states... but it resonated very, very strongly with me.


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## Blue Ribbon (Sep 4, 2016)

Doll said:


> I question everything. I don't suck at Fi, though. Emotional intensity is something I enjoy, but I'm very selective about who I feel that way about - and it's usually a who, not a what, aside from personal identity issues.
> 
> 
> 
> I used to consider INFP/INFJ, but I'm not sure how well that would fit me.


You're right. I'm pretty sure you operate off of an Ne/Si axis. So all 4 Ne types of which I think INTP would suit you. I don't think you're a Te or Fe type. 

When I first joined, I typed myself as ENTP and I had a convo with one who told me I wasn't using Ti. There were also other Fi users telling me I was giving off the Fi vibes. I keep getting this gut feeling that you're an INxP. How sure are you of your extroversion?


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## Candy Apple (Sep 10, 2015)

I don't think she's sure of extroversion but her test results put Ne in the forefront followed by Ti.


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## Blue Ribbon (Sep 4, 2016)

Candy Apple said:


> I don't think she's sure of extroversion but her test results put Ne in the forefront followed by Ti.


I try not to rely too much on test results since it's so easy to manipulate them to get the results I want. I could also be easily biased against my own type which is why I didn't even consider ENTP. 

But to be honest, I don't think @Doll is an ENFP since Fi has this habit of relating everything to itself. For example, if someone tells me something, an incident that happened to them, I'm not seeing it objectively, I'm relating it to myself. I'm thinking, 'has this happened to me before? No? Then how would I feel if it happened to me?' That's how Fi empathises. Everything an Fi user does is personal and close to their hearts. You'll see a kind of warmth from Fi and Te users that you won't from Fe and Ti users. Sure the latter can be warm too but Fi feels like it's a furnace inside. 
@Witch of Delight you typed yourself as INFP before, right? I assume you understand the Ti vs Fi debate better than I do. What do you think of Doll?


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Witch of Certainty said:


> I try not to rely too much on test results since it's so easy to manipulate them to get the results I want. I could also be easily biased against my own type which is why I didn't even consider ENTP.
> 
> But to be honest, I don't think @*Doll* is an ENFP since Fi has this habit of relating everything to itself. For example, if someone tells me something, an incident that happened to them, I'm not seeing it objectively, I'm relating it to myself. I'm thinking, 'has this happened to me before? No? Then how would I feel if it happened to me?' That's how Fi empathises. Everything an Fi user does is personal and close to their hearts. You'll see a kind of warmth from Fi and Te users that you won't from Fe and Ti users. Sure the latter can be warm too but Fi feels like it's a furnace inside.
> @*Witch of Delight* you typed yourself as INFP before, right? I assume you understand the Ti vs Fi debate better than I do. What do you think of Doll?


I feel like a lot of my interactions with people come from an impersonal, cold place, which is a horrible thing to admit. I just had a nurse tell me her daughter had incurable cancer and I expressed my sympathy in the "I'll keep her in my thoughts" way, but I didn't look at it like that or make it personal.

With people I care about, I can be very warm and excitable, but that is NOT my go-to emotion and it takes a certain type of special person (ahem @fleur du mal ) to bring that out.


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## Happy29 (Jul 31, 2016)

Doll said:


> I'm the same way, and I often associated with this as scanning the room in an SX-way, finding a like-minded person that I could connect with. There's SOMETHING I'm looking for, but if I'm not interested in someone I'm just not interested, and I move on quickly. I have the tendency to see others as shallow, which I'm trying to correct because I know it probably isn't true.


Interesting - I scan the room, but it's different. What I'm talking about isn't that so much as it is picking up on currents in any room - can be work or a party or home or whatever - and having a feeling that this one is mad at that one or that this one has the hots for that one. 



> I'm definitely influenced by the people around me in ways I don't like to admit. If I'm around people I'm close to I'll act differently, but it's more a comfort level thing and it isn't a conscious effort. I'll have days where I'm very extroverted and super connected, but then I'll withdraw and ignore everyone.


I think everyone is like that to a certain extent - even I have days where I just can't bother with people. And the comfort level thing is definitely real. I'm not sure it's even a conscious effort with me - it's not necessarily that I look for things to have in common with people, I just find them (if that makes sense).

EDIT: Also, I found this, and I scarily relate: 

_"Being an ENTP means consciously suppressing your Fe function, and subconsciously avoiding your Si function. It's a shame how most people fail to understand the concept of Jung's ideas. People seem to forget that every single type uses all of the functions, with personal preferences due to different circumstances and situations. It's a misconception to assume the tertiary and dominated functions are one of the 'strengths' of the type._
_It's much more reasonable to imagine the functions in the form of a balance. If you put weight onto Intuition, you're losing some of your Sensing abilities (both functions in each case, Ne AND Ni, Se AND Si). So, if you're an NTP-type, you are repressing your Fe function to a certain extent. The more you repress it, the less conscious/aware you become of that function and its capabilities, meaning, that if your dominated function is Si, you're subconsciously avoiding the use of Si and easily overwhelmed by it as you're lacking the experience to perfectly control it. To illustrate this, EN_P's are the type that feels nostalgia in the most intense form as they are not used to ponder about the past for extensive amounts of time (and memory is part of the Si function). When ENTP's, for instance, are discussing a topic, they will be subconsciously overwhelmed by their memory, giving them many different possibilities to argue their point._
_In this sense, since an ENTP's Ni is weaker than its Ne function, their Fi is stronger than their Fe. Tertiary functions are the functions you're still consciously aware of and therefore consciously decide to deny their use. To give you an example, an INTJ will suppress their use of Fi (expression of feelings), as they consider them inferior to their Te. In the same way, an ENTP will avoid using their Fe (harmonizing with others; empathy; following the masses; valuing others opinions; caring about what others say/think about you; etc.) even consciously to the point, depending on how much Ti is developed, that they will excessively explain others how much they don't care about others or similar._
_So, just to summarize, the ENTP's function strength usually comes in this type of order: Ne, Ni, Ti, Te, Fi, Fe, Se, Si
Obviously, this does not mean that the ENTP cannot use their Fi or Fe functions, but more likely than not, they will blatantly protest against the use of it, unless they realize that the situation does not allow them to do so for whatsoever reason."_[/QUOTE]

Very interesting. I can definitely be nostalgic for things, including what I call "This is the Time to Remember Syndrome" - when you realize you'll be nostalgic about something *while it's happening*. Good times!!


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## Siri (Aug 1, 2015)

Witch of Certainty said:


> @Witch of Delight you typed yourself as INFP before, right? I assume you understand the Ti vs Fi debate better than I do. What do you think of Doll?


Ti and Fi work exactly the same way, except Ti is logical/impersonal/objective. If you're able to support every single thought of yours with strong logic, then you're a Ti user. The difference is really simple, but it could be hard for a Ne user to spot the functions in themselves (blame the bouncy ideas). 

Another difference I notice between Ti and Fi users is that, Ti users are more in touch with what they exactly are and Fi users are more in touch with what they'd like to be. 

As far as Doll's answers are concerned, I don't see any Fi in them.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Siri said:


> Another difference I notice between Ti and Fi users is that, Ti users are more in touch with what they exactly are and Fi users are more in touch with what they'd like to be.


What if you think of both? I'm more aware of what I'm NOT, although I focus this inward, less on what I'd _like_ to be, and more focused on what I lack. There's a gloomy quality to it.


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## Siri (Aug 1, 2015)

Doll said:


> What if you think of both? I'm more aware of what I'm NOT, although I focus this inward, less on what I'd _like_ to be, and more focused on what I lack. There's a gloomy quality to it.


That just says you're well aware of your weaknesses. Introverted judging functions are generally good at spotting what you lack, so both Fi and Ti doms are aware of their strengths and weaknesses. Fi is all about your likes and dislikes, and according to Jung:
_Fi is continually seeking an image which has no existence in reality, but which it has seen in a kind of vision._

Fi in 2nd position isn't static, i.e the likes and dislikes or your values tend to change very often. Similarly, Ti in 2nd position is quick in coming up with new logical systems and disposing off the old ones unlike Ti doms. who are quite stubborn to make any changes to their internal system.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Siri said:


> That just says you're well aware of your weaknesses. Introverted judging functions are generally good at spotting what you lack, so both Fi and Ti doms are aware of their strengths and weaknesses. Fi is all about your likes and dislikes, and according to Jung:
> _Fi is continually seeking an image which has no existence in reality, but which it has seen in a kind of vision._


I see. I definitely know I have a problem with image, but I tend to see qualities in real life that I want to have and embody in myself. But I'm definitely more strengths/weaknesses oriented than likes and dislikes. My likes and dislikes are pretty changeable; I always hated filling that out on websites.



> Fi in 2nd position isn't static, i.e the likes and dislikes or your values tend to change very often. Similarly, Ti in 2nd position is quick in coming up with new logical systems and disposing off the old ones unlike Ti doms. who are quite stubborn to make any changes to their internal system.


This is very true for me. I didn't realize that Fi and Ti had similarities that could be mistaken for each other, or even Fi and Fe. I just assumed that I had strong feelings and I'm very in tune with them, therefore I must be a feeler.


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## Siri (Aug 1, 2015)

> I just assumed that I had strong feelings and I'm very in tune with them, therefore I must be a feeler.


In MBTI:
Feelings =/= Emotions
Feelings = Values

You may take your emotions into account while deciding on your Enneagram, but I think a person could be emotional and a thinker in MBTI at the same time. It's all about the things that affect your emotions imo.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Siri said:


> In MBTI:
> Feelings =/= Emotions
> Feelings = Values
> 
> You may take your emotions into account while deciding on your Enneagram, but I think a person could be emotional and a thinker in MBTI at the same time. It's all about the things that affect your emotions imo.


This helps a lot... thank you. What would you say affects a thinker's emotions?


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## Siri (Aug 1, 2015)

Doll said:


> This helps a lot... thank you. What would you say affects a thinker's emotions?


Stupid people of course. XD
Well, it varies depending on the kind of thinker, like an INTP might get furious if strong emotions are being directed at them.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Siri said:


> Stupid people of course. XD
> Well, it varies depending on the kind of thinker, like an INTP might get furious if strong emotions are being directed at them.


Hahaha. I get annoyed/angry if people are rude to me for no reason, but it takes a loooot to rile me up. I'm not very emotional on the outside. I think the angriest I ever got was when a woman standing ahead of me and a friend of mine made oinking noises at my friend. 

I WENT OFF.


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## Candy Apple (Sep 10, 2015)

Doll said:


> made oinking noises at my friend.


what on earth!:angry:


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Candy Apple said:


> what on earth!:angry:


I know. Who does that?

We were in line at a book signing (Stephen King, be still my heart), and she got annoyed because my friend talks a lot, so she thought she'd make the mistake of oinking at her.

Oh no bitch. I ripped her apart.


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## Candy Apple (Sep 10, 2015)

Doll said:


> I know. Who does that?
> 
> We were in line at a book signing (Stephen King, be still my heart), and she got annoyed because my friend talks a lot, so she thought she'd make the mistake of oinking at her.
> 
> Oh no bitch. I ripped her apart.


Her oinking speaks a lot about herself hahaha...


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Since @Doll is still unsure & I know you've helped others with this dilemma.. I'll mention @Desthro. Any tips on helping her figure out if she is ENFP or ENTP?


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> Since @*Doll* is still unsure & I know you've helped others with this dilemma.. I'll mention @*Desthro*. Any tips on helping her figure out if she is ENFP or ENTP?


 I would definitely appreciate that. Feel free to suggest an alternate type as well. You know, UYSJ or whatever. 

Since I don't want to ask you to read through the whole thread, here's just some notable posts.

The original questionnaire
La di da!
I lost the whole
Freaking
List
That I made
I am so irritated rn
I swear


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## Desthro (Feb 18, 2016)

Doll said:


> I would definitely appreciate that. Feel free to suggest an alternate type as well. You know, UYSJ or whatever.
> 
> Since I don't want to ask you to read through the whole thread, here's just some notable posts.
> 
> ...


I see lots of talk about feelings and decision making. Unfortunately, my perspective on it is a little different. Being emotionally aware isn't a "Fi" thing or an "Fe" thing. Just like being logically aware isn't a "Ti" or a "Te" thing. And enneagram makes MBTI really fucking confusing, because things that are buried in your enneatype (You think you are a 4w3 for example) might be misconstrued as one cognitive function over another. As an example, I am a type 8, I am VERY well aware of a certain few emotions, but I'm not a Fi user. 

One of the things that you mentioned in the linked posts above was external harmony. That's important to you. And I think that is one of the most critical aspects of Fi/Fe, is it is centered on harmony. Fe deals with outward harmony, and all the skills therein (thereout? LoL), and Fi deals with inward harmony, IE being self-consistent. Likewise, the same difference can be seen in Ti/Te, Te is externally consistent logically, and Ti is internally consistent logically. That gets further complicated because we each have an introverted and an extroverted judging function in the primary stack.

If you are a Fi user, you have Te and vice versa. If you are a Ti user, you have Fe and vice versa.

Since external harmony is something you strive for, I would argue that that is Fe somewhere in your stack. And since you are Fe, you also have Ti. You also suggested that you have a strong Ti, in some of your replies, and if you have Ti in your primary stack, you have Fe in your primary stack. It's not even an option at that point. 

That leaves us with:

INTP
ISTP
ENTP
ESTP
ESFJ
ENFJ
ISFJ
INFJ

Based upon your questionnaire, you don't strike me as much of a sensor. You seem less preoccupied with things as they are or were and more with things as they could be or might have been. Shorthand for perception fucntions: Se = What IS, Ne = What COULD BE, Si = What WAS, Ni = What COULD HAVE BEEN. That gives us an N leaning and leaving us with:

INTP
ENTP
ENFJ
INFJ

I would argue that your perception function is extroverted based upon your train story. "WE'RE GOING TO MUNICH!" Also the story of the creepy guy when you were 12? Extraverted Intuition if I ever saw it. That gives us xNTP. The introverted perception types that you mentioned who were freaking out were probably Ni or Si types lol.

So your stack is probably either Ti->Ne->Si->Fe or Ne->Ti->Fe->Si, for INTP or ENTP. 

I like to use troubleshooting as an example of sorting out Ti->Ne vs Ne->Ti

If you are faced with a problem, do you pick a likely solution and then explore all the possible ways to obtain that solution (Ti->Ne), or do you explore many possible solutions and then pick the one that seems the best (Ne->Ti)?

INTPs tend to be far more solid in their positions than ENTPs are due to the ENTPs preference of Ne over Ti, and INTPs are less likely to concern themselves with harmony in their environment even if it does bother them.

ENTPs conversely, are more apt to play Devil's Advocate because of that Ne->Ti, and are going to be more engaged with their surroundings. ENTPs may come off as assholes, but the truth is they are really seeking a pleasant environment for everyone in the ways they know how to do that.

I'm leaning towards ENTP for you personally, but INTP is possible as well.

Also, 4w3 ENTPs are not very common, so don't think you have to adhere to any of the typical ENTP stereotypes to be an ENTP, most ENTPs are 7w8 after all.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Desthro said:


> If you are faced with a problem, do you pick a likely solution and then explore all the possible ways to obtain that solution (Ti->Ne), or do you explore many possible solutions and then pick the one that seems the best (Ne->Ti)?


I tend to start with a variety of possibilities and then narrow it down. My thinking process is almost like a totem pole. I'll never abandon a solution, or a possibility, but I'll rate it as lower or less likely.



> INTPs tend to be far more solid in their positions than ENTPs are due to the ENTPs preference of Ne over Ti, and INTPs are less likely to concern themselves with harmony in their environment even if it does bother them.


I'm never solid on a position. I suspect my dad is an INTP, and he's always very certain of himself and gets a bit frustrated when I question his decisions. I tend to come from a position of QUESTION EVERYTHING, so people often see me as indecisive or fluid; no one ever knows where I stand, which is fine, because I don't often have a set position. I don't think that makes me weak, but a lot of people would disagree.

As far as the environment goes, I'll lighten up tension, jump in, jump out, as long as I'm in the mood. I do this on the forum sometimes. I find myself running in a thread and posting a gif, then disappearing.



> ENTPs conversely, are more apt to play Devil's Advocate because of that Ne->Ti, and are going to be more engaged with their surroundings. ENTPs may come off as assholes, but the truth is they are really seeking a pleasant environment for everyone in the ways they know how to do that.


I'm kind of image-conscious, but sometimes I like being seen as "better" or more elite. I don't know if this is considered assholeish or not. I guess it depends on perspective.



> Also, 4w3 ENTPs are not very common, so don't think you have to adhere to any of the typical ENTP stereotypes to be an ENTP, most ENTPs are 7w8 after all.


Yeah, this is what makes me be like meh, because so many people believe that 4w3s can't be ENTPs. I know for sure that my type is 4w3... however, I do have a 7 fix, and my instinctual stacking is also very 7ish, being sx/so. I can't deny that I have a LOT of 7 influence in my personality, but at the end of the day, I'm definitely a 4.


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## NellyMa (Nov 7, 2016)

It sounds like ISFJ to me


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## Desthro (Feb 18, 2016)

Doll said:


> I tend to start with a variety of possibilities and then narrow it down. My thinking process is almost like a totem pole. I'll never abandon a solution, or a possibility, but I'll rate it as lower or less likely.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then you're an ENTP 4w3. And the people that don't believe are dumb. 
@NellyMa , she doesn't have Si as her primary perception function. 99% certain on that.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

NellyMa said:


> It sounds like ISFJ to me


I've looked into the stacking for ISFJ, but it doesn't seem to make sense for me at all.



Desthro said:


> Then you're an ENTP 4w3. And the people that don't believe are dumb.
> @*NellyMa* , she doesn't have Si as her primary perception function. 99% certain on that.


^iawtc

Some ENTPs I relate to, some I don't at all, so this should be fun.


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## Desthro (Feb 18, 2016)

Doll said:


> I've looked into the stacking for ISFJ, but it doesn't seem to make sense for me at all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I definitely agree with that sentiment.


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