# Windows 10 or Linux?



## PowerShell

I'd say get a Mac. It's the best of both worlds. This Macbook Air has impressed me a lot (minus the 128gb of storage which sucks). Otherwise it's lightweight and portability and the power it packs is good. A Mac Mini runs around $600 and isn't too bad.


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## zynthaxx

sudo said:


> I am going to have to soon 'upgrade' a system for someone who is on Windows 8.1. They have zero experience with Linux but I can't in good conscience install the privacy invading Windows 10 onto their system.
> 
> I personally use Windows 10...it's my favorite version of Windows. However, I am a customization freak and have an extremely idiosyncratic setup, so I can't install my customized ISO onto their machine, and I don't want to spend hours removing all the privacy invasive stuff and tweaking security settings.
> 
> So my question becomes this: is there a practical Linux distro for a technologically illiterate Windows user? I am talking user friendly, no use of the terminal, *stable*, and works right out of the box.





PowerShell said:


> I'd say get a Mac. It's the best of both worlds. This Macbook Air has impressed me a lot (minus the 128gb of storage which sucks). Otherwise it's lightweight and portability and the power it packs is good. A Mac Mini runs around $600 and isn't too bad.


Seconded. If they don't mind buying a new computer, get them a Mac Mini (or, if they can afford it, a small iMac).

Re GNU/Linux: I installed Mint for my mother-in-law on her old Lenovo laptop a year ago and have had zero support requests from her since. She's a pretty typical user whose needs end with a web browser, an IMAP compatible mail client, a word processor and a legacy Windows program (which happens to run just fine through Wine).

During this time I've helped unfuck my father-in-law's Windows 7 computer at least four times even though he's (usually) running in the context of a non-administrative user and uses a (somewhat permissively configured) ad blocker.


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## netfences

Most of the linux distros are excellent! Among them you can find exactly what suits your hardware and application needs.



PowerShell said:


> I'd say get a Mac.


I have sold off all my Apple products and am boycotting them until they pay a proper tax bill. I encourage all civic minded people to do the same. If Bernie Sanders gets in, I'm sure the practice of off-shoring money to avoid paying tax will be addressed.


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## leftover crack

You might as well just install windows 10. It will force updates so the machine will at least recieve all the 'security' updates and such. Windows 8.1 is essentially the same, inclusive with some if not most of the privacy invasions. 

Just open a local account and disable cortana she's useless anyway. 

For the average user those privacy invasions really won't hurt it's only if they do work on it is when you should be worried.


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## PowerShell

netfences said:


> I have sold off all my Apple products and am boycotting them until they pay a proper tax bill. I encourage all civic minded people to do the same. If Bernie Sanders gets in, I'm sure the practice of off-shoring money to avoid paying tax will be addressed.


Apple does abuse transfer pricing but a bit, but every company that does business internationally does. Additionally, half the money overseas is from revenues generated by selling their products overseas but to bring the money back into the US they have to pay an additional income tax on it. The US is the only country that taxes worldwide earnings like this so the tax system is what is encouraging to keep their money overseas.

Honestly, I'm not Apple fan. I use their products and have had a Mac Mini, an iPod, and now a Macbook Air. I also have a Windows 10 PC, and a Google Chromebook. I also have an Android phone. I work in IT, so what I experiment and use whatever gets the job done. Overall for beginners, Macs are decent. My parents had a Mac Mini for a while when my brother was still living there so he could edit his videos with iMovie and they seemed to easily use it. I have a feeling they'd get lost with Linux or go and buy some hardware that doesn't work with it and be pissed they can't use the hardware. Most hardware works on a Mac, so it's win-win. It's just the premium of what Macs cost.


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## zynthaxx

PowerShell said:


> The US is the only country that taxes worldwide earnings like this so the tax system is what is encouraging to keep their money overseas.


Just to pick nits: USA isn't alone. Eritrea does too. Except for that I think they're alone about this...


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## Riven

Maybe Ballmer was right. First, North Korea with Red Star OS, next, China with Ubuntu Kylin and modified Android in their smartphones, so what will Russia do?


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## zynthaxx

SJWDefener said:


> Maybe Ballmer was right. First, North Korea with Red Star OS, next, China with Ubuntu Kylin and modified Android in their smartphones, so what will Russia do?


After the leaks during the last few years, confirming what we in the business suspected all along, that high-profile IT companies give their respective governments backdoors into their products (whether willfully, by force, or by trickery), are you surprised that foreign nations want to run systems that at least in theory can be checked for such malicious code? Conversely: How big is the chance of US government agencies purchasing a few thousand Red Star OS licenses and running it in good faith? It has very little to do with spite and very much to do with not potentially giving another country a lot of your sensitive data.


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## Wulfex

You can't EASILY game on Linux...

Windows 10 has been pretty awesome so far. All the power of 7, with the nice visuals of 8 and it's stable. I haven't had either of my machines blue screen yet. No compatibility issues. Flawless.

I remember the days I wanted to be a Linux guru... Then you slowly realize there's not a whole lot of reason too, unless you're running server 24/7. Yeah, I know most phones run Linux... but you can't EASILY touch the OS on a phone. If you can use the terminal and grep, you're pretty well set.

Until Steam on Linux gets really popular and big titles see release there, I'll be on Windows. I don't want to program after I get off work, I just want to play mah games.


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## zynthaxx

Wulfex said:


> You can't EASILY game on Linux...
> 
> Windows 10 has been pretty awesome so far. All the power of 7, with the nice visuals of 8 and it's stable. I haven't had either of my machines blue screen yet. No compatibility issues. Flawless.
> 
> I remember the days I wanted to be a Linux guru... Then you slowly realize there's not a whole lot of reason too, unless you're running server 24/7. Yeah, I know most phones run Linux... but you can't EASILY touch the OS on a phone. If you can use the terminal and grep, you're pretty well set.
> 
> Until Steam on Linux gets really popular and big titles see release there, I'll be on Windows. I don't want to program after I get off work, I just want to play mah games.


Correction: You can't easily play a lot of AAA titles on Linux. Installing the OS and getting Steam and its supported titles running on Mint 10.x, on a vanilla PC with an Nvidia GPU was a Next-Next-Finish breeze. Even if you count the extra time I spent getting my Eizo screen to run reliably at 120 Hz to benefit from its gaming functionality, it was still less time and effort than you usually spend just de-crapping a store-bought Windows PC before it is usable.

If your preferred titles are on the SteamOS/Linux compatibility list, then "not wanting to program when you get home" is not a valid reason not to run Linux or SteamOS. If they aren't, well, then that isn't really the way to go.


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## PowerShell

Wulfex said:


> I remember the days I wanted to be a Linux guru... Then you slowly realize there's not a whole lot of reason too, unless you're running server 24/7. Yeah, I know most phones run Linux... but you can't EASILY touch the OS on a phone. If you can use the terminal and grep, you're pretty well set.


That and to do anything advanced or make some basic things work, it turns into a turn of work and messing around.


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## Fascist




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## sweetraglansweater

PC n00b here but I'll ask anyways....I'm looking at getting a new, travel laptop but I really dislike Windows 10, both for the set up and the invasiveness. However, I don't feel confident to use Linux without a strong, brainy man in my life *swoon*. Seriously though, should I just buy Windows 7 do install it all over again or try Linux free fall? Also is there a laptop any of you guys would recommend for someone who likes their computers fast but also portable? Please don't say Apple....


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## Razare

Fascist said:


>


This is basically the difference. Yes, windows has the security holes, but in theory those can all be closed.

But even after that, at the kernal level, linux is just better.

And in some ways, Windows 8 is even less responsive than Windows XP.

With Windows XP, you could bring up the task manager and force something to die, most of the time. And if it failed, really, it was a system crash to the point you need to reboot.

With windows 8, it will crash the task manager quite easily rather than giving it priority over all other processes. And yes, it also crashes quite often when you try using it.

You think a motherboard manufacturer would learn that Windows will never get its act together, and they'd just give you like hardware level administration rights on processes.

This all said, I don't use linux, there's no need to unless you need complete security and reliability.


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## sudo

I have decided to install windows 10 for this person. I am going to make a customize ISO via NTlite specifically for them, and set up their router (using dd-wrt firmware) to use the opendns filters combined with my dnsmasq list. I also have a hostsfile to use for their system.

I do a lot of time consuming things for other people for nothing for being such a misanthrope*.

Anyway, I have decided that Linux just isn't practical for this person. I didn't feel like testing out a bunch of distros. By the way, I use kali (on it now actually) and spend a lot of time in the terminal 

Anyway, thanks for all that advice. I am actually on a benzo for sleep, so hopefully I made sense there. Sleep deprivation sucks!


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## zynthaxx

sweetraglansweater said:


> PC n00b here but I'll ask anyways....I'm looking at getting a new, travel laptop but I really dislike Windows 10, both for the set up and the invasiveness. However, I don't feel confident to use Linux without a strong, brainy man in my life *swoon*. Seriously though, should I just buy Windows 7 do install it all over again or try Linux free fall? Also is there a laptop any of you guys would recommend for someone who likes their computers fast but also portable? Please don't say Apple....


It doesn't hurt to try GNU/Linux; you can always go back if you have a good backup (which you should have anyway). Be prepared, though, that Linux is less polished and gives you a lot more options to choose from, so you may need to read up a bit on how stuff actually works to get things to run properly.

It's usually possible to google the parts in a laptop to ensure that they work with Linux (and how well). Basically, Microsoft spent quite some time breaking standards in Windows, and parts manufacturers are more concerned with their stuff working in Windows (and vice versa) than having them actually conform to the written specifications. Also, the open nature of Linux makes companies with trade secrets a bit reluctant to do a very good job there, since making their software drivers entirely Linux native would mean spelling out what it is their stuff actually does under the hood. So yes, there are some complicating factors in running other operating systems.

Regarding fast but portable laptops:
Apple. The portability often comes at a compatibility cost when it comes to Linux, and Windows has inherent traits that remove a lot of the snappiness in your interaction with the computer, either immediately or over time.


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## sudo

sweetraglansweater said:


> PC n00b here but I'll ask anyways....I'm looking at getting a new, travel laptop but I really dislike Windows 10, both for the set up and the invasiveness. However, I don't feel confident to use Linux without a strong, brainy man in my life *swoon*. Seriously though, should I just buy Windows 7 do install it all over again or try Linux free fall? Also is there a laptop any of you guys would recommend for someone who likes their computers fast but also portable? Please don't say Apple....



I can actually give you a few (rather easy steps) to prevent some of that windows 10 intrusiveness. When you say you're a PC noob, are you referring to having very limited knowledge of computers in general, or did you mostly mean linux?

(sorry I am a little groggy).


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## zynthaxx

Razare said:


> This is basically the difference. Yes, windows has the security holes, but in theory those can all be closed.


All large enough systems have security holes. The principal thought behind Linux is that anyone can look at the code and see them (and subsequently fix them for themselves and for the community), while in Windows you're stuck with waiting for Microsoft to release an official patch. In practice, Microsoft has been forced to up their game a lot since the nineties. A well-managed Windows computer is not a lot less safe, over all, than a computer running any other OS. The problem is that a privately owned computer almost certainly will not be well-managed.



Razare said:


> But even after that, at the kernal level, linux is just better.


..depending on what you want to do. Use the right tool for the job, simply put.



Razare said:


> With Windows XP, you could bring up the task manager and force something to die, most of the time. And if it failed, really, it was a system crash to the point you need to reboot.
> 
> With windows 8, it will crash the task manager quite easily rather than giving it priority over all other processes. And yes, it also crashes quite often when you try using it.


What the images illustrate is the difference between the GNU/Linux "kill -9" command and Windows cooperative way of killing processes. Windows always tries to get processes to close down gracefully, which may result in the user waiting for minutes before the program disappears, while in Linux, if you know that the program really is unresponsive, you can shoot it in the head and be done with it. The same applies to OS X: A hung process kan be killed instantly instead of having to wait around with a crippled system until the OS decides it can't do anything and properly kills the offending program.



Razare said:


> You think a motherboard manufacturer would learn that Windows will never get its act together, and they'd just give you like hardware level administration rights on processes.


That's not how it works. That would mean that motherboard manufacturers created their own OS that lay between "your" OS and the hardware and could intervene in the operations of "your" OS. What, really, would become better through that, considering the uneven quality of firmware and drivers released by most consumer product manufacturers?


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## Wulfex

zynthaxx said:


> Correction: You can't easily play a lot of AAA titles on Linux. Installing the OS and getting Steam and its supported titles running on Mint 10.x, on a vanilla PC with an Nvidia GPU was a Next-Next-Finish breeze. Even if you count the extra time I spent getting my Eizo screen to run reliably at 120 Hz to benefit from its gaming functionality, it was still less time and effort than you usually spend just de-crapping a store-bought Windows PC before it is usable.
> 
> If your preferred titles are on the SteamOS/Linux compatibility list, then "not wanting to program when you get home" is not a valid reason not to run Linux or SteamOS. If they aren't, well, then that isn't really the way to go.


Well you see, I'm also not a huge fan of Nvidia either. Call me picky but I never liked their software (crashes, doesn't play well with others, etc.). And, if I can't play AAA titles, then I missing out on a LOT games. Most days I play League of Legends, but there days where I'd like to play Battlefield or MWO. I want a PC, not a console, so I won't ever really consider using SteamOS, just seem a little impractical at the moment. The juice isn't worth the squeeze. I have to spend HOURS getting drivers to work for my video card... I'm good. Not saying Linux is bad, I just prefer plug and play. Plus, I don't buy store bought PCs away. OEM copies of Windows baby! All of Windows without the bullshit! 

Until there's more linux support, I'll stay here! Programming on a Linux box is nice though! I'd play around with Linux again... but every time I install it I'm disappointed by how slow it is (Mint, Ubuntu, LXLE).



Fascist said:


>


I think they're giving Apple too much credit, you wouldn't be able to pop the damn hood. You need an "Apple Genius" to do that.




sweetraglansweater said:


> PC n00b here but I'll ask anyways....I'm looking at getting a new, travel laptop but I really dislike Windows 10, both for the set up and the invasiveness. However, I don't feel confident to use Linux without a strong, brainy man in my life *swoon*. Seriously though, should I just buy Windows 7 do install it all over again or try Linux free fall? Also is there a laptop any of you guys would recommend for someone who likes their computers fast but also portable? Please don't say Apple....


The invasiveness can be disabled. Most of it is just so Cortana can act like Google. You use Google yeah? They do the same thing as Microsoft is doing. I don't see it as an issue. Seems like selective paranoia.

If I were you and wanted to use Linux over Windows, get a Windows Laptop (I hate using PC for Windows, because 'P' = personal which means whatever OS you choose) and dual boot Linux. That way you can use Linux as your main OS, but if you want to use Windows you still have that option also. Then if one day you decide you want to off Windows or Linux, you can do that.

I'm just glad you have a distaste for Apple. I'm still waiting for them to release a device subscription service. Pay $300 a month, and when a new device comes out, you get it for free!! (Please ignore the fact you paid over $3000 for your new iPhone).


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## sweetraglansweater

Wulfex said:


> The invasiveness can be disabled. Most of it is just so Cortana can act like Google. You use Google yeah? They do the same thing as Microsoft is doing. I don't see it as an issue. Seems like selective paranoia.
> 
> If I were you and wanted to use Linux over Windows, get a Windows Laptop (I hate using PC for Windows, because 'P' = personal which means whatever OS you choose) and dual boot Linux. That way you can use Linux as your main OS, but if you want to use Windows you still have that option also. Then if one day you decide you want to off Windows or Linux, you can do that.
> 
> I'm just glad you have a distaste for Apple. I'm still waiting for them to release a device subscription service. Pay $300 a month, and when a new device comes out, you get it for free!! (Please ignore the fact you paid over $3000 for your new iPhone).


The invasiveness annoys me mentally, but the layout of Windows 10 is my biggest beef. The thing looks like a retarded kindergartner designed it after a long play date at Chucky Cheeses in which he was molested repeatedly by purple-people eater. I don't expect my OS systems to be immaculate (Apple) but I'd prefer not think of some horrific backstory as an explanation for the atrocious color palette choices they made at Microsoft whilst creating W10.

Apple irritates me. I don't like being told what to do, even if that means living in a socialistic utopia of perfect safety and facistic harmony. Although I have thought about switching to an iPhone...and the iPad is just a way better size and design. Their cameras are always better than whatever Android I've got sporting around. I guess it'll be the slippery slope from there.


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## PowerShell

sweetraglansweater said:


> Apple irritates me. I don't like being told what to do, even if that means living in a socialistic utopia of perfect safety and facistic harmony. Although I have thought about switching to an iPhone...and the iPad is just a way better size and design. Their cameras are always better than whatever Android I've got sporting around. I guess it'll be the slippery slope from there.


The only thing that annoys me about Apple is their prices are too expensive. I wish they'd get more of a budget line where you could pick up a laptop for $300-400.


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## Wulfex

sweetraglansweater said:


> The invasiveness annoys me mentally, but the layout of Windows 10 is my biggest beef. The thing looks like a retarded kindergartner designed it after a long play date at Chucky Cheeses in which he was molested repeatedly by purple-people eater. I don't expect my OS systems to be immaculate (Apple) but I'd prefer not think of some horrific backstory as an explanation for the atrocious color palette choices they made at Microsoft whilst creating W10.


This is the biggest reason why people hate 8/8.1/10... I don't get it! I love it! I no longer have to use rocketDock to organize my apps, it's just POOF groups of programs and tiles, very easy to navigate visually. The whole thing is customization, if you don't like tiles, get rid of them. You like the full screen start menu, keep it! I can damn near use my computer blindfolded because everything is so easy to get to. A vast improvement over "here's a list of folders, and each one of those folders has other folders, with folders and occasionally you'll find the program you're trying to run." I also hate desktop icons... On most of my machines, there's at most 10 icons. On average there's maybe 3 icons on my desktop. Maybe it's because I have a mindset of "My Desktop is a folder and should only really be used for temporary things".

I really want understand why I seem to be the only one that likes the Windows 10 layout... If the metro layout goes away... I'll seriously consider switching to Linux. Then I can have full control over what the UI looks like.


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## Riven

Fascist said:


>


Fascist, I saw a picture somewhere where Linux was just an entire car taken apart i.e. great for customisability


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## Riven

PowerShell said:


> I'd say get a Mac. It's the best of both worlds. This Macbook Air has impressed me a lot (minus the 128gb of storage which sucks). Otherwise it's lightweight and portability and the power it packs is good. A Mac Mini runs around $600 and isn't too bad.


IMO, it underperforms too much. I may want to do some game developing and/or playing on a computer, and the specs of a Mac don't allow especially more recent and high-end titles.


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## PowerShell

SJWDefener said:


> IMO, it underperforms too much. I may want to do some game developing and/or playing on a computer, and the specs of a Mac don't allow especially more recent and high-end titles.


Yeah for high end gaming, you might be better off getting a PC, but for everyday use they work well. I do video editing with a Macbook Air and it works fine.


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## Riven

PowerShell said:


> Yeah for high end gaming, you might be better off getting a PC, but for everyday use they work well. I do video editing with a Macbook Air and it works fine.


I'll buy a Chromebook and use Crouton on it instead for my everyday computing needs, thanks.


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## BrinyBarnacle

Linux Lite is very, very good.... but they all require methods of updating software and installing software that most basic computer users and even some advanced computer users will have trouble with.


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## PowerShell

SJWDefener said:


> I'll buy a Chromebook and use Crouton on it instead for my everyday computing needs, thanks.


Ok but I bet you're more advanced than the average user. I'm speaking from an easy user experience where you don't have to really learn anything extra or from a perspective of working in IT 8 hours a day, the last thing you want to do is constantly be making adjustments and tinkering with stuff just to make it run.


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## Riven

PowerShell said:


> Ok but I bet you're more advanced than the average user. I'm speaking from an easy user experience where you don't have to really learn anything extra or from a perspective of working in IT 8 hours a day, the last thing you want to do is constantly be making adjustments and tinkering with stuff just to make it run.


I might actually just try and get a high-end computer because I want to get into 3D modelling to make (and play) games and software. I'll only have Windows on for playing games, and I'll use Linux for everything else (its desktop environments aren't such resource hogs exc. KDE, Unity, GNOME and Xfce to some extent).

Without Crouton, I think Chrome OS could be a fitting solution for all IT needs; the only problem is the software side and its dependence on web apps, where the web apps may not be adequate substitutes to the Windows and Mac-exclusive and Microsoft and Apple software people have been used to since the 90s.


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## PowerShell

SJWDefener said:


> I might actually just try and get a high-end computer because I want to get into 3D modelling to make (and play) games and software. I'll only have Windows on for playing games, and I'll use Linux for everything else (its desktop environments aren't such resource hogs exc. KDE, Unity, GNOME and Xfce to some extent).
> 
> Without Crouton, I think Chrome OS could be a fitting solution for all IT needs; the only problem is the software side and its dependence on web apps, where the web apps may not be adequate substitutes to the Windows and Mac-exclusive and Microsoft and Apple software people have been used to since the 90s.


The internet has to advance a lot further to make web apps feasible. My parent's DSL connection sucks and there is a good chunk of computer users with crappy connections like this.


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## sudo

OMG guys! My telnet port is open! WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?  lolz sorry, I'm just in a playful l33t mood and can't sleep 















PowerShell said:


> The only thing that annoys me about Apple is their prices are too expensive. I wish they'd get more of a budget line where you could pick up a laptop for $300-400.




I have a strong dislike for Apple's totalitarian philosophy; I loathe how they lock down their devices. I personally would never own one, however I have to deal with family members iOS devices on occasion and it annoys me to no end! I can't stand dealing with itunes either.

Anyway, they do make nice products, but I prefer to have control over my devices. I can definitely see the practicality of their products for the average user, though.


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## PowerShell

sudo said:


> Anyway, they do make nice products, but I prefer to have control over my devices. I can definitely see the practicality of their products for the average user, though.


There's also practicality for IT guys too. The last how many days I've been working on Cisco routers and trying to get IOS updated with it. You want to talk about mind numbingly complex, especially when commands change between versions and these are versions behind and haven't been update in years. It's all also command line. By the end of the day, I just want to get on something that works and not have to tinker around and do little quick fixes to make things work. That's why I am more than happy with my Macbook Air.


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## marblecloud95

PowerShell said:


> I'd say get a Mac. It's the best of both worlds. This Macbook Air has impressed me a lot (minus the 128gb of storage which sucks). Otherwise it's lightweight and portability and the power it packs is good. A Mac Mini runs around $600 and isn't too bad.


Honor Steve Job's memory buy a fucking mac.


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## sudo

Windows 95 in your browser.

https://win95.ajf.me/win95.html


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## surrealrain

You can always dual boot. I use Windows 10 on my desktop for game development and school, but I use Linux Mint on my laptop. I prefer Linux over Windows, but Windows is better for future game development and other certain Windows specific APIs. I will be making cross platform games though since I'm using the GCC compiler and Windows and Linux. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Fascist

surrealrain said:


> You can always dual boot. I use Windows 10 on my desktop for game development and school, but I use *Linux Mint *on my laptop.


Good choice m8


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## nO_d3N1AL

If you want Linux, use Ubuntu. To be honest I find Windows a much nicer experience but the only times I use Linux is when I'm trying to set up a web server or VM or something. There's a lot to learn about the Linux world and it's really easy to mess up your system if you don't know what you're doing with the command line and "sudo". It depends on what you want to do. I think Linux is unavoidably technical. No matter how well the interface of Ubuntu is designed, you can tell that pretty much everything with a GUI is just running some terminal commands behind the scenes. Windows, on the other hand, is much more consumer-focused and user-friendly imo, might just be the familiarity. There's nothing to "learn" with Windows - or at least it feels like there isn't. Whether you're doing something technical or not, Windows makes it easy. It may not be the best OS for the job, but you don't have to spend loads of time Googling how to do certain things or running into problems anywhere near as often. YMMV.


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## nichya

since windows 10 crashed on me, linux (whatever left from dual boot)


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## DoIHavetohaveaUserName

Well it depends on your requirement . If you love programming and share the idea that OS must be made free for all , go for linux , else go for windows .


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## zynthaxx

nO_d3N1AL said:


> There's nothing to "learn" with Windows - or at least it feels like there isn't.


Make no mistake: All new platforms require you to learn stuff. Windows 8 made a lot of our users who tried it utterly bewildered - I bet the step to especially OS X, but even something like KDE or Cinnamon would have been easier for most users with previous Windows experience. Windows 10 is much of a step back to previous paradigms, but again: There are enough changes that to many inexperienced users it's a completely different OS than Windows 7, which most will be coming from.

I'd actually go so far as to claim that learning a UNIX-based OS probably is easier and more logical than learning Windows if you have no previous computer experience.


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## Solrac026

I haven't tried Windows 10, but I absolutely loathe Linux. I would have liked to love it and gave it a few chances, but the learning curve is just too steep. I don't have 4-5 hours to troubleshoot every little issue in Linux, which there always are. Even Googling for an answer becomes near impossible as there are so many versions of Linux and what solves the problem for one user doesn't solve my issue because Linux and I'm back to the drawing board spending hours trying to find a solution for what should be an easy task. The only way I can see myself using Linux is for installing uber popular programs, like a web browser and Open Office, etc. Anything more complicated than that GTFO!


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## PowerShell

Solrac026 said:


> I haven't tried Windows 10, but I absolutely loathe Linux. I would have liked to love it and gave it a few chances, but the learning curve is just too steep. I don't have 4-5 hours to troubleshoot every little issue in Linux, which there always are. Even Googling for an answer becomes near impossible as there are so many versions of Linux and what solves the problem for one user doesn't solve my issue because Linux and I'm back to the drawing board spending hours trying to find a solution for what should be an easy task. The only way I can see myself using Linux is for installing uber popular programs, like a web browser and Open Office, etc. Anything more complicated than that GTFO!


I definitely get your sentiment and that's what pushed me away from Linux initially. The documentation can suck and in the forums you get a, "RTFM n00b!" attitude thrown at you. If you want to dabble in Linux, try Ubuntu. Also apt-get makes installing programs a lot easier. I wonder if someone can essentially make Linux work just like an Android phone does and make things super easy. Then I could see Linux taking off.


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## Solrac026

PowerShell said:


> I definitely get your sentiment and that's what pushed me away from Linux initially. The documentation can suck and in the forums you get a, "RTFM n00b!" attitude thrown at you. If you want to dabble in Linux, try Ubuntu. Also apt-get makes installing programs a lot easier. I wonder if someone can essentially make Linux work just like an Android phone does and make things super easy. Then I could see Linux taking off.


I say it's near impossible to make it that easy. It's painfully obvious that Linux was written by a bunch of volunteers. While I love the idea of FOSS, one of its weaknesses is there aren't any central points of authorization. Since they rely on volunteers, not one single person gets to call all the shots, they have to give the volunteers a lot of power in coding things the way they want to code things or they risk losing those volunteers. That's why I see a lot of things that aren't intuitive with Linux. Take for example, something as simple as changing the IP address. In windows, you change the IP and it immediately takes effect, regardless of doing it via command line or via GUI. In Linux, you can do this with sudo service networking restart or service networking restart or sudo service network-manager restart or turning the interface on and off. Keep in mind that not all of these are going to work depending on the version of Linux. To make matters worse, some of the commands will execute without issue, but the changes won't take effect. Stuff like this is absolutely ridiculous and why I hate Linux.


----------



## nburns

Solrac026 said:


> I say it's near impossible to make it that easy. It's painfully obvious that Linux was written by a bunch of volunteers. While I love the idea of FOSS, one of its weaknesses is there aren't any central points of authorization. Since they rely on volunteers, not one single person gets to call all the shots, they have to give the volunteers a lot of power in coding things the way they want to code things or they risk losing those volunteers. That's why I see a lot of things that aren't intuitive with Linux. Take for example, something as simple as changing the IP address. In windows, you change the IP and it immediately takes effect, regardless of doing it via command line or via GUI. In Linux, you can do this with sudo service networking restart or service networking restart or sudo service network-manager restart or turning the interface on and off. Keep in mind that not all of these are going to work depending on the version of Linux. To make matters worse, some of the commands will execute without issue, but the changes won't take effect. Stuff like this is absolutely ridiculous and why I hate Linux.


Linux actually used to be simpler. I got into it in 1997, and if you wanted to tweak the network settings, you just used "ifconfig". Ubuntu and maybe Red Hat to some extent created a bunch of more complicated systems for managing things like networking and init scripts. Stuff like network-manager. It was supposed to make it easier, I think. But now you have multiple ways of doing the same thing at different levels. Like, you could directly tweak the interface with ifconfig. Or, you could find the right config file to put the IP address into for some manager program so that when it runs ifconfig it gives it the right parameters. That manager probably has its own manager, with its own config files, where you could also put the IP address. Sometimes you wind up with two different managers that both have the same purpose. I know that one of the rationales for making networking more complicated was to support wireless.

But yeah, back in 1997, I think you pretty much figured out the ifconfig command line and then you could stick it in a simple init script and be good to go.


----------



## PowerShell

nburns said:


> Linux actually used to be simpler. I got into it in 1997, and if you wanted to tweak the network settings, you just used "ifconfig". Ubuntu and maybe Red Hat to some extent created a bunch of more complicated systems for managing things like networking and init scripts. Stuff like network-manager. It was supposed to make it easier, I think. But now you have multiple ways of doing the same thing at different levels. Like, you could directly tweak the interface with ifconfig. Or, you could find the right config file to put the IP address into for some manager program so that when it runs ifconfig it gives it the right parameters. That manager probably has its own manager, with its own config files, where you could also put the IP address. Sometimes you wind up with two different managers that both have the same purpose. I know that one of the rationales for making networking more complicated was to support wireless.
> 
> But yeah, back in 1997, I think you pretty much figured out the ifconfig command line and then you could stick it in a simple init script and be good to go.


Sometimes you wonder if it's worth just doing Linux from Scratch and building your own distro. I think a lot of the distros are bloatware because so many people are throwing what they think they need for programs in there so there ends up being 10 pieces of software that do the same thing.


----------



## nburns

PowerShell said:


> Sometimes you wonder if it's worth just doing Linux from Scratch and building your own distro. I think a lot of the distros are bloatware because so many people are throwing what they think they need for programs in there so there ends up being 10 pieces of software that do the same thing.


It's probably still worth figuring out Ubuntu, because everyone else uses it. Plus, if you want stuff like X11 and gnome, I don't think you'd want to mess with that on your own.

But I think there are still plenty of distros and you can find a primitive one if you want.


----------



## Riven

One thing I find interesting is how Microsoft is releasing an edition of Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi. Until Vista, compared to our current technology, all the operating systems Microsoft had would be lightweight by its standards; such is new late-00s technology for you.

Edit: I just Googled it and it looks pretty boring.


----------



## sudo

If anyone really wants to learn and explore Linux I'd use a distro like Arch or Gentoo. The installation process is an educational experience by itself.


----------



## Peter

sudo said:


> I am going to have to soon 'upgrade' a system for someone who is on Windows 8.1. They have zero experience with Linux but I can't in good conscience install the privacy invading Windows 10 onto their system.
> 
> I personally use Windows 10...it's my favorite version of Windows. However, I am a customization freak and have an extremely idiosyncratic setup, so I can't install my customized ISO onto their machine, and I don't want to spend hours removing all the privacy invasive stuff and tweaking security settings.
> 
> So my question becomes this: is there a practical Linux distro for a technologically illiterate Windows user? I am talking user friendly, no use of the terminal, *stable*, and works right out of the box. The machine is mostly used for browsing the internet, so all the alternatives to common applications (open office, vlc, and gimp) will suffice. I likely won't need to configure Wine or anything as this person only uses their computer for social networking/web browsing.
> 
> I came from a Gentoo/Arch background before 'graduating' to BackTrack/Kali so I am wholly unfamiliar with the more mainstream distros. I used to test distros out all the time in VMs but haven't done so in a long while (outside of installing Lubuntu but not playing around with it).
> 
> I tested and briefly used Mint a few years ago, but I found it unstable and unacceptable as a main OS but I am unsure if it made any progress. Ubuntu seems to be the more mainstream and popular choice but I just have no experience with it. SuSe is one I am leaning on (I actually might test this out this weekend) but I am not sure how a Linux noob would handle it.
> 
> So, I am hoping someone on here can give a recommendation based on personal experience. What is the easiest and stable Linux distro for someone who basically just uses it for the browser? Ideally I want a complete and fully maintained distro, nothing lightweight.
> 
> On second thought; I'll probably end up installing Windows 10, but I'd thought ask anyway.


Don't give linux to people that have no clue. They don't judge things the way you do. When they have friends over they´re going to be told they use a stupid system. They won't be able to use any windows apps. They will hate you for ever.

And don't worry about the privacy invading stuff. It's not worth it. If you try to protect yourself from all those things, that fine. But if you´re going to try to help people that don't want to be helped, you´re just wasting your time.


----------



## zynthaxx

PowerShell said:


> Sometimes you wonder if it's worth just doing Linux from Scratch and building your own distro. I think a lot of the distros are bloatware because so many people are throwing what they think they need for programs in there so there ends up being 10 pieces of software that do the same thing.


Problem is, if you want to do Linux from Scratch, you can go FreeBSD immediately. It was built from the ground up to work that way, and it has excellent documentation (which, regrettably, the GNU environment and most made-for-Linux programs simply don't). For a project at work, I built a FreeBSD "template" with the components I needed pre-compiled and -configured, and simply deployed machines from it on the basis of current needs.

(To be honest, I went back to Ubuntu Server for that particular use case, though: I needed VRRP-like functionality, and I wasn't 100% sure that CARP (the implementation on *BSD) and our existing VRRP equipment wouldn't puke all over each other in case of a management mistake. Long story short, I now run keepalived for that functionality, and it has worked flawlessly for some time even in a fully virtualized environment with multiple VLANs _and_ NICs per host.)


----------



## PowerShell

zynthaxx said:


> Problem is, if you want to do Linux from Scratch, you can go FreeBSD immediately. It was built from the ground up to work that way, and it has excellent documentation (which, regrettably, the GNU environment and most made-for-Linux programs simply don't). For a project at work, I built a FreeBSD "template" with the components I needed pre-compiled and -configured, and simply deployed machines from it on the basis of current needs.
> 
> (To be honest, I went back to Ubuntu Server for that particular use case, though: I needed VRRP-like functionality, and I wasn't 100% sure that CARP (the implementation on *BSD) and our existing VRRP equipment wouldn't puke all over each other in case of a management mistake. Long story short, I now run keepalived for that functionality, and it has worked flawlessly for some time even in a fully virtualized environment with multiple VLANs _and_ NICs per host.)


Or that.


----------



## nburns

PowerShell said:


> Or that.


There's also OpenSolaris. I haven't gotten around to playing with it myself, but it would be fun to put it on a clueless person's machine and see how they like it. :fox:


----------



## PowerShell

nburns said:


> There's also OpenSolaris. I haven't gotten around to playing with it myself, but it would be fun to put it on a clueless person's machine and see how they like it. :fox:


What I might start doing is finding a minimalist version of Linux to do my number crunching for video editing and such. I'm currently working on a project, which I've written in Java, to basically take the GPS coordinates from my Garmin VIRB action camera and map them to Google Maps. The process itself is very intensive and takes a long time to process. If there's a good open sourced video editing program I can take the picture output generated and automatically put it into an open source video editing program, that would be cool. Also, if that open source video editing program did multiple video tracks, I could overlay it with my drive video. All I know if doing this proof of concept took a long time to process stuff and, since I wrote the program in Java, I can theoretically run it anywhere so a lower overhead OS might speed up the process to creating these videos.

This is the Google Maps video:





This is the original video that generated the GPS data data:





I produced it all on my Macbook Air.


----------



## nburns

PowerShell said:


> What I might start doing is finding a minimalist version of Linux to do my number crunching for video editing and such. I'm currently working on a project, which I've written in Java, to basically take the GPS coordinates from my Garmin VIRB action camera and map them to Google Maps. The process itself is very intensive and takes a long time to process. If there's a good open sourced video editing program I can take the picture output generated and automatically put it into an open source video editing program, that would be cool. Also, if that open source video editing program did multiple video tracks, I could overlay it with my drive video. All I know if doing this proof of concept took a long time to process stuff and, since I wrote the program in Java, I can theoretically run it anywhere so a lower overhead OS might speed up the process to creating these videos.


I don't really follow what you're trying to do. But I wouldn't expect the computation to go any faster on Linux. If it's mostly computation, then the OS is not even really involved.


----------



## PowerShell

nburns said:


> I don't really follow what you're trying to do. But I wouldn't expect the computation to go any faster on Linux. If it's mostly computation, then the OS is not even really involved.


Basically my Java program calls the Google Static Maps API and generates a picture for each GPS coordinate. Just for that specific video, 2200 pictures were generated. Then you have to insert them into a video editing program and do all the rendering there. This took me forever to do and it did entail some manual work and waiting for things to load. I was thinking if more computer resources were free (like say if I strictly ran a non-GUI UNIX-based system), I might be able to get a few more CPU cycles to dedicate to crunching this data. Now granted, I'm going to look into making the program more efficient since you don't need to have 2200 GPS coordinates taken to visually represent a 1 hour drive on Google Maps, but I do have some drive videos (and intend to to more) where I have over 8 hours of driving footage. Basically I want to make this as efficient as possible, especially since I'll be doing a lot of the editing on the road as I travel and it needs to be as efficient as possible for the ultra portable devices I will have with me (like Macbook Air).


----------



## nburns

PowerShell said:


> Basically my Java program calls the Google Static Maps API and generates a picture for each GPS coordinate. Just for that specific video, 2200 pictures were generated. Then you have to insert them into a video editing program and do all the rendering there. This took me forever to do and it did entail some manual work and waiting for things to load. I was thinking if more computer resources were free (like say if I strictly ran a non-GUI UNIX-based system), I might be able to get a few more CPU cycles to dedicate to crunching this data. Now granted, I'm going to look into making the program more efficient since you don't need to have 2200 GPS coordinates taken to visually represent a 1 hour drive on Google Maps, but I do have some drive videos (and intend to to more) where I have over 8 hours of driving footage. Basically I want to make this as efficient as possible, especially since I'll be doing a lot of the editing on the road as I travel and it needs to be as efficient as possible for the ultra portable devices I will have with me (like Macbook Air).


It seems kind of inefficient to generate 2200 static maps using a web service, but, unfortunately, I don't know enough about the domain to make a suggestion as to a better way.

I am 99% certain that changing OSes won't make a significant difference, though.


----------



## PowerShell

nburns said:


> It seems kind of inefficient to generate 2200 static maps using a web service, but, unfortunately, I don't know enough about the domain to make a suggestion as to a better way.
> 
> I am 99% certain that changing OSes won't make a significant difference, though.


There might be a more efficient way. I really don't know. I'm not super experienced with programming so I couldn't tell you. I know 2200 is excessive and I just did it because I simply read the KML file and plotted the coordinates based on that. I'm sure, based on the zoom level, you probably need a small fraction of those actual images generated. That's my next task is figuring out timing and making sure it syncs with the video and also figuring out a reasonable amount of pictures to generate based on zoom level and how much you need the marker to actually move per second of video. The generating an image from Google Static Maps makes it easy to import it into a video editing program and then create a video from it.


----------



## Riven

I'm just wondering what 20th century Apple fans think of Apple in the 21st century. Apparently, Steve Wozniak said something along the lines of hating it or something, probably because of how closed-off Apple products became (although I think they were always rather closed-off to start with).


----------



## sudo

Kind of off topic, but speaking of Steve Wozniak, he was one of the original hackers. He was a phone phreak - even Steve Jobs dabbled in it and nearly got arrested for it. lmfao


----------



## Biracial

We upgraded to windows 10 a month ago and ran into many device compatibility issues. It's been a real nightmare and we rolled backed.

I wouldn't mind trying some flavor of linux at work but it must work with the devices we have now.


----------



## zynthaxx

Biracial said:


> We upgraded to windows 10 a month ago and ran into many device compatibility issues. It's been a real nightmare and we rolled backed.
> 
> I wouldn't mind trying some flavor of linux at work but it must work with the devices we have now.


Changing operating system families in a corporate environment is a monumental undertaking, not only from a technical perspective but also from a political and user perspective. A majority of users just want to do their job with as little points of disturbance as possible, and unless you can show very concrete benefits all over the line, that's exactly what management will want them to be able to do too.

Unix-like systems have long had clear benefits on the server side, in some work loads. I'm afraid that core- and nano versions of Windows Server, along with Microsoft's dabbling in web services through the Azure platform, will shrink that efficiency gap a lot in the next few years.

That said, many appliances use Linux- (with or without the GNU environment) or *BSD-based operating systems. That's generally an easy way to get some unix into a "mostly MS" shop. If you dabble in web services, unix-like systems still have the edge in many cases. That's also true of some larger databases. Above all, though, you need to be pretty damn sure that you know what to do when the shit hits the fan. No matter the OS, that will eventually happen. In most areas, it'll be easier to find experts and consultants to help you with a Windows problem than it'll be to find someone that'll help you with a problem in a Unix.

When it comes to client operating systems you only have a few different options when it comes to benefiting from Linux:
a) You're at a company which has always used unixes and can simply port your applications to new platforms.
b) You're starting up a new company with no legacy software requirements, and are free to choose (or write) systems and applications freely.
c) Select departments may be able to switch depending on legacy program requirements
d) All your client software consists of web apps with no requirements as to non-portable plugins or extensions.
e) You're using thin clients and VDI or remote desktop services (meaning that you still use Windows and your regular applications for the environment where people work, but you have eliminated most of the client management requirements and a lot of the attack vectors for desktops).


----------



## PowerShell

zynthaxx said:


> When it comes to client operating systems you only have a few different options when it comes to benefiting from Linux:
> a) You're at a company which has always used unixes and can simply port your applications to new platforms.
> b) You're starting up a new company with no legacy software requirements, and are free to choose (or write) systems and applications freely.
> c) Select departments may be able to switch depending on legacy program requirements
> d) All your client software consists of web apps with no requirements as to non-portable plugins or extensions.
> e) You're using thin clients and VDI or remote desktop services (meaning that you still use Windows and your regular applications for the environment where people work, but you have eliminated most of the client management requirements and a lot of the attack vectors for desktops).


F. You live in an area where there is a pool of qualified administrators that you can hire to administer these Linux systems.

F is definitely important because finding people who are proficient in Linux is hard, especially in more rural areas where it's hard enough just finding qualified Windows applicants.


----------



## Emerald Legend

If you're a linux lover the alternative doesn't exist.


----------



## nburns

Emerald Legend said:


> If you're a linux lover the alternative doesn't exist.


Yeah. For a fanboy, nothing else will do.


----------



## Emerald Legend

nburns said:


> Yeah. For a fanboy, nothing else will do.


----------



## Emerald Legend

Also ladies...


----------



## Grandmaster Yoda

Windows 8 and android suck. How about neither?


----------



## JTHearts

Windows 10 isn't privacy invading unless you're a terrorist.


----------



## Donkey D Kong

Emerald Legend said:


>





Code:


$ sudo pacman -S femalearousal
 [Sudo] password for dweeb:

error: target not found: femalearousal


----------



## zynthaxx

JTHearts said:


> Windows 10 isn't privacy invading unless you're a terrorist.


Anything that discloses potentially private information about you is privacy invading, whether it's human or machine-based. 
The fact that governments don't generally have the resources to do anything with the information your systems leak until after the potential fact is just a matter of computational power and time.

As long as government officials can get away with mass trawling of data and metadata by yelling "terrorist" or "think about the children" rather than having a proper legal process for each individual case of surveillance, an operating system that leaks data about you even after you've told it to stop has to be viewed with suspicion.


----------



## Witch of Oreo

#Disclaimer - i'm not protecting privacy invasion, just trying to get it right. @zynthaxx
I wonder if there was any actual packet decryption? Any solid evidence of system sending snapshots of personal data _without user's consent_? Technet certainly doesn't indicate that telemetry is anything as bad as it's made to be.
https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85).aspx

* *





Basic level:


> *Basic device info*. Helps provide an understanding about the various types of devices in the Windows 10 ecosystem, including:
> Device attributes, such as camera resolution and display type
> Internet Explorer version
> Battery attributes, such as capacity and type
> Networking attributes, such as mobile operator network and IMEI number
> Processor and memory attributes, such as number of cores, speed, and firmware
> Operating system attributes, such as Windows edition and IsVirtualDevice
> Storage attributes, such as number of drives and memory size


"Enhanced" level:


> Enhanced level info includes:
> *Operating system events*. Helps to gain insights into different areas of the operating system, including networking, Hyper-V, Cortana, and other components.
> *Operating system app events*. A set of events resulting from Microsoft apps that were downloaded from the Store or pre-installed with Windows, including Photos, Mail, and Microsoft Edge.
> *Device-specific events*. Contains info about events that are specific to certain devices, such as Surface Hub and Microsoft HoloLens. For example, Microsoft HoloLens sends Holographic Processing Unit (HPU)-related events.


"Full" level:


> The Full level gathers info necessary to identify and to help fix problems, following the approval process described below. This level also includes info from the Basic, Enhanced, and Security levels.Additionally, at this level, devices opted in to the Windows Insider Program will send events that can show Microsoft how pre-release binaries and features are performing. All devices in the Windows Insider Program are automatically set to this level.
> If a device experiences problems that are difficult to identify or repeat using Microsoft’s internal testing, additional info becomes necessary. This info can include any user content that might have triggered the problem and is gathered from a small sample of devices that have both opted into the Full telemetry level and have exhibited the problem.
> However, before more info is gathered, Microsoft’s privacy governance team, including privacy and other subject matter experts, must approve the diagnostics request made by a Microsoft engineer. If the request is approved, Microsoft engineers can use the following capabilities to get the information:
> Ability to run a limited, pre-approved list of Microsoft certified diagnostic tools, such as msinfo32.exe, powercfg.exe, and dxdiag.exe.
> Ability to get registry keys.
> Ability to gather user content, such as documents, if they might have been the trigger for the issue.







As far as I'm aware, browser fingerprint might give away a lot more sensitive information - which still doesn't point at you directly.


----------



## zynthaxx

slowcoffee said:


> #Disclaimer - i'm not protecting privacy invasion, just trying to get it right. @_zynthaxx_
> I wonder if there was any actual packet decryption? Any solid evidence of system sending snapshots of personal data _without user's consent_? Technet certainly doesn't indicate that telemetry is anything as bad as it's made to be.
> 
> As far as I'm aware, browser fingerprint might give away a lot more sensitive information - which still doesn't point at you directly.


What I primarily disagree with is this: The sending of any data at all from my computer should be based on an opt-in choice, not the other way around. What Microsoft, Apple and anyone else in the business should do, is to leave everything off out of the box, but to tell the customer that "We can bring you these nifty features, but our means of delivering them is by processing a lot of your data, and by processing it, you will leave an audit trail which won't be fully anonymized. If this is fine by you, enable this feature here."

In addition, I fundamentally disagree with the fact that there is a level of information gathering you simply cannot opt-out of unless you purchase an enterprise license of the operating system, or set up a very restrictive set of firewall rules, none of which ordinary computer users will ever do. Since the code generating the telemetry is not free for anyone to look at, we need to take Microsoft's word for it that it is mostly harmless (which, as you say, we haven't much reason to believe otherwise today). The important point, though, is that as consumers we have no way of knowing if they suddenly decide that they want to collect more information, or if a malfunction can cause actual private data to be transferred anyway. 
And of course: by processing this kind of information, a company makes itself a target for anyone who might want such info, be it your own government or a malicious actor who believes they can profit from it in some way.


----------



## Witch of Oreo

zynthaxx said:


> What I primarily disagree with is this: The sending of any data at all from my computer should be based on an opt-in choice, not the other way around. What Microsoft, Apple and anyone else in the business should do, is to leave everything off out of the box, but to tell the customer that "We can bring you these nifty features, but our means of delivering them is by processing a lot of your data, and by processing it, you will leave an audit trail which won't be fully anonymized. If this is fine by you, enable this feature here."
> 
> In addition, I fundamentally disagree with the fact that there is a level of information gathering you simply cannot opt-out of unless you purchase an enterprise license of the operating system, or set up a very restrictive set of firewall rules, none of which ordinary computer users will ever do. Since the code generating the telemetry is not free for anyone to look at, we need to take Microsoft's word for it that it is mostly harmless (which, as you say, we haven't much reason to believe otherwise today). The important point, though, is that as consumers we have no way of knowing if they suddenly decide that they want to collect more information, or if a malfunction can cause actual private data to be transferred anyway.
> And of course: by processing this kind of information, a company makes itself a target for anyone who might want such info, be it your own government or a malicious actor who believes they can profit from it in some way.


I think the problem is not just MS, but modern business practices, where the cornerstone of any successful business is _being client-oriented _- actually, that means shoving things down customers' throats, because they don't know what they really need, and the company does. At least that's what I was taught when I worked in retail.
Telemetry was _opt-in_ until recently, and was called Windows Customer Experience Improvement Program. Essentially, it was just made _opt-out_ in W10. In fact, I learned about CEIP only from that, and had no idea it existed since XP or so - just because it was pushed so far away in menus.

* *




https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3080149
https://www.microsoft.com/products/ceip/en-us/default.mspx
https://www.microsoft.com/products/ceip/en-us/privacypolicy.mspx
Some info on Telemetry updates and CEIP for earlier Windows versions. Doesn't seem much different from what is written on Telemetry article I linked to earlier.



Plus, the whole W10 concept of "one platform" and being "the final version of Windows" would mean that it will require enormous amount of feedback to maintain the system across gorillions of devices that will run it and provide security/feature patches ASAP. Not something a small bunch of geeks who found an option to opt in to CEIP will be able to provide.
So, doing the math, it kind of makes sense that MS would want all the data it can get. Exception just for corporate clients, who are a lot more uptight about data security than your average Joe who just spilled out everything up to his dick size on Facebook page.
More feedback from multiple devices running the system would mean:
a) keeping the system more stable and secure;
b) adding new features faster.
Wouldn't having a rock-solid system with the latest features make a customer happy? It would! So you will be happy the way MS want it, like it or not. Anything for you to keep business running. ANYTHING.

* *





See, absolutely customer-friendly.










Furthermore - MS might have also considered that making telemetry impossible to turn off would cause controversy, so they decided not to even cover it up, but make everyone think that it's not invasive at all. That would explain why they insist on keeping it the way it is despite all negativity about W10 privacy.
It's a different question, though, how to make a change about such approach. I can't think of anything better than cutting feedback altogether by making people more aware of privacy issues and encouraging the use of utilities like DWS. As feedback necessary to maintain the system runs lower, MS (and, maybe, other companies) might implement an option of _opting in_ to data collection instead of making it permanent - or at least be more transparent about it and make privacy policies more detailed so that customers could consider possible privacy issues.

* *




But... you know










Sorry about ranting and have a nice day.


----------



## sudo

So last evening I decided to edit sources.list (repositories) on my Linux laptop so I could upgrade the system. I was well aware that I could run into errors and face a possible 'broken' install, but I went ahead with it anyway. It took about an hour to complete, and everything went smoothly. I ran into one error, but it was no big deal.

This is what I added btw:


* *




deb Index of /kali kali-rolling main contrib non-free

deb-src Index of /kali kali-rolling main contrib non-free





Alright, so I reboot, check everything, made a few tweaks, and then ran RKHunter to scan the upgraded system. I ended up getting a bunch of warnings for suspicious files. WTF?



* *





[00:46:14] System checks summary
[00:46:14] =====================
[00:46:14]
[00:46:14] File properties checks...
[00:46:14] Files checked: 145
[00:46:14] Suspect files: 109
[00:46:14]
[00:46:14] Rootkit checks...
[00:46:14] Rootkits checked : 380
[00:46:14] Possible rootkits: 0
[00:46:14]
[00:46:14] Applications checks...
[00:46:14] All checks skipped
[00:46:14]
[00:46:14] The system checks took: 3 minutes and 39 seconds
[00:46:14]
[00:46:14] Info: End date is Sun Mar 13 00:46:14 EST 2016




I only included the summary because the log file is uber long. Most of warnings came from /usr/sbin/ and it was for everything that was upgraded. It is listed as "Warning: The file properties have changed".

So does anyone know how to fix this (maybe by editing the .conf file?) so I stop getting these warnings? It's more of an annoyance than anything. Although, I did freak out at first, but then it occurred to me what happened even before I read the log. Haha.


----------



## yet another intj

sudo said:


> So my question becomes this: is there a practical Linux distro for a technologically illiterate Windows user? I am talking user friendly, no use of the terminal, stable, and works right out of the box. The machine is mostly used for browsing the internet, so all the alternatives to common applications (open office, vlc, and gimp) will suffice. I likely won't need to configure Wine or anything as this person only uses their computer for social networking/web browsing.


I still remember the days when that was a serious question. Right now, many people are asking "if there's a reasonably unstable Linux distro that you can monkey around".



sudo said:


> I came from a Gentoo/Arch background before 'graduating' to BackTrack/Kali so I am wholly unfamiliar with the more mainstream distros. I used to test distros out all the time in VMs but haven't done so in a long while (outside of installing Lubuntu but not playing around with it).


You sound like a Slackware enthusiast who never heard of Debian. You supposed to already know the rest, at least have an idea effortlessly by following a couple of blogs/news sources.



sudo said:


> I tested and briefly used Mint a few years ago, but I found it unstable and unacceptable as a main OS but I am unsure if it made any progress.


Mint is quite "acceptable" if you want to browse the internet and use a couple of alternatives to common applications. Linux distros, including the most orthodox ones are unstable by nature. It's the fundamental strength and also the weakness of open source. Being open to anything and everything for progress with collective efforts. If you are looking for something "naturally" stable, try something developed by a company, not a community.



sudo said:


> Ubuntu seems to be the more mainstream and popular choice but I just have no experience with it.


Enforcing the tablet UI even before Windows 8 disaster with a flair of donation-driven corporatism? No thanks.



sudo said:


> SuSe is one I am leaning on (I actually might test this out this weekend) but I am not sure how a Linux noob would handle it.


Unfortunately, giving away cool pins, badges and stickers with brick sized user manuals can't save any bloatware.



sudo said:


> So, I am hoping someone on here can give a recommendation based on personal experience. What is the easiest and stable Linux distro for someone who basically just uses it for the browser? Ideally I want a complete and fully maintained distro, nothing lightweight.


You already know the answer.



sudo said:


> On second thought; I'll probably end up installing Windows 10, but I'd thought ask anyway.


It seems to be the only alternative since Microsoft start to infect the previous versions with critical updates and use them as the stepping stone for upgrade campaign.


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## sudo

thanks.


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## sudo

sudo said:


> So last evening I decided to edit sources.list (repositories) on my Linux laptop so I could upgrade the system. I was well aware that I could run into errors and face a possible 'broken' install, but I went ahead with it anyway. It took about an hour to complete, and everything went smoothly. I ran into one error, but it was no big deal.
> 
> This is what I added btw:
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> deb Index of /kali kali-rolling main contrib non-free
> 
> deb-src Index of /kali kali-rolling main contrib non-free
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alright, so I reboot, check everything, made a few tweaks, and then ran RKHunter to scan the upgraded system. I ended up getting a bunch of warnings for suspicious files. WTF?
> 
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [00:46:14] System checks summary
> [00:46:14] =====================
> [00:46:14]
> [00:46:14] File properties checks...
> [00:46:14] Files checked: 145
> [00:46:14] Suspect files: 109
> [00:46:14]
> [00:46:14] Rootkit checks...
> [00:46:14] Rootkits checked : 380
> [00:46:14] Possible rootkits: 0
> [00:46:14]
> [00:46:14] Applications checks...
> [00:46:14] All checks skipped
> [00:46:14]
> [00:46:14] The system checks took: 3 minutes and 39 seconds
> [00:46:14]
> [00:46:14] Info: End date is Sun Mar 13 00:46:14 EST 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I only included the summary because the log file is uber long. Most of warnings came from /usr/sbin/ and it was for everything that was upgraded. It is listed as "Warning: The file properties have changed".
> 
> So does anyone know how to fix this (maybe by editing the .conf file?) so I stop getting these warnings? It's more of an annoyance than anything. Although, I did freak out at first, but then it occurred to me what happened even before I read the log. Haha.



By the way, simply purging rkhunter and reinstalling fixed the issue.

Some solutions are so simple, but it often takes me awhile to figure them out. Haha!


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## Grandmaster Yoda

Before you answer, I'll have you know that North Korea uses Linux.


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## PowerShell

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> Before you answer, I'll have you know that North Korea uses Linux.


Which did look like Windows but now looks like Mac.


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## sudo

I think it's called Red Star OS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_OS


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## nburns

PowerShell said:


> Which did look like Windows but now looks like Mac.


I can see why the North Korean regime would admire Apple. Apple likes to keep tight control over its users.


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## Sunn

Donkey D Kong said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> $ sudo pacman -S femalearousal
> [Sudo] password for dweeb:
> 
> error: target not found: femalearousal


So awkwardly accurate


* *




specially since its so familiar @ brackets


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## Erbse

If you're not tied to any Windows applications (including Games) that do not exist on Linux on cannot be ran through any sort of emulation or workaround or replaced by a Linux application and don't like to be snooped upon: Linux.

Mint and Ubuntu are fairly usable out of the box these days unless I'm mistaken. I'm not an avid Linux user myself, though.

Vulcan may or may not be widely supported down the road and thus make Linux more gaming viable.

Finally check out potential hardware issues / compatibility as well as driver performance(s).

Otherwise, as always, it's Windows.


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## zynthaxx

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> Before you answer, I'll have you know that North Korea uses Linux.


As does Microsoft. So?


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## sudo

I've been using Windows 10 for the past few days for the first time in months because I've been in one of my isolated "writing" phases and I prefer Office 2016 over OpenOffice/LibreOffice. I also prefer listening to music on Windows as I have yet to find a music player for Linux that is as good (for me) as Winamp. I have an idiosyncratic setup, and my entire music collection is stored in individual .7z files. VLC can play them but it doesn't read the tags properly. It's frustrating.

Anyway, Windows 10 definitely feels more professional and I like it a lot, but I still feel more "at home" with Linux for some reason.


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## surrealrain

Why not both? I use Windows 10 on my desktop for school and gaming, and I use Arch Linux on my laptop. You could dual boot. 










Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Riven

surrealrain said:


> Why not both? I use Windows 10 on my desktop for school and gaming, and I use Arch Linux on my laptop. You could dual boot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


UEFI, that's why. If you're an Ubuntu noob like me, then that's a bit much to fathom. I'm not willing to go deep into Linux, I just don't want to install any more drivers and I want something I can keep and customise.


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## surrealrain

SJWDefener said:


> UEFI, that's why. If you're an Ubuntu noob like me, then that's a bit much to fathom. I'm not willing to go deep into Linux, I just don't want to install any more drivers and I want something I can keep and customise.


What does UEFI have to do with it? That's just the successor to BIOS. There is no need to even learn about it if you use a graphical install disk. All you need to do is create an EFI partition on the GPT boot disk. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Solrac026

SevSevens said:


> Do you honestly believe your friend will be able to learn linux considering he is expecting something like windows 10? This to me sounds absurd. I've used both linux and windows and unless someone is a data scientists, computer programmer, or IT enthusiast, they would not do well with linux.


I think they can do it as long as they ONLY use Linux for like word processing and internet browsing. But I agree, Linux is a beast to master. I gave up on it, I've got no time for the hours and hours of troubleshooting required to learn how to use it.


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## Solrac026

surrealrain said:


> Why not both? I use Windows 10 on my desktop for school and gaming, and I use Arch Linux on my laptop. You could dual boot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


If the person has no inclination or ability to install their own operating system, they certainly are not are going to enjoy or want a dual boot system.


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## SevSevens

Solrac026 said:


> If the person has no inclination or ability to install their own operating system, they certainly are not are going to enjoy or want a dual boot system.


This is what I was basically getting at.


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## SevSevens

Solrac026 said:


> If the person has no inclination or ability to install their own operating system, they certainly are not are going to enjoy or want a dual boot system.


This is what I was basically getting at.


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## septic tank

Wulfex said:


> You can't EASILY game on Linux...
> 
> Windows 10 has been pretty awesome so far. All the power of 7, with the nice visuals of 8 and it's stable. I haven't had either of my machines blue screen yet. No compatibility issues. Flawless.
> 
> I remember the days I wanted to be a Linux guru... Then you slowly realize there's not a whole lot of reason too, unless you're running server 24/7. Yeah, I know most phones run Linux... but you can't EASILY touch the OS on a phone. If you can use the terminal and grep, you're pretty well set.
> 
> Until Steam on Linux gets really popular and big titles see release there, I'll be on Windows. I don't want to program after I get off work, I just want to play mah games.


Pretty much the only reason why I used Windows is because of gaming.


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