# Why Feeling men do not go after Feeling women?



## Blue Butterfly (Sep 19, 2009)

INFpharmacist said:


> Not really. If you're a Socionics INFj, then he's supposed to be your duality partner.
> 
> ESTJs drive me up the wall! You can't even doing anything for them without them spoiling your surprise. :bored:


That is what I am afraid of, that he would drive me up the wall for long term. But he sure is fun to talk to. He is playful and funny and can get into some deep conversations. I was surprised when he took the the test and found out that he was an ESTJ. He seemed to try to not offend me in any way and seemed to care about my emotional state.


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## LeelooDallas (Sep 15, 2009)

Alchemical Romance said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but I think what pissed you more was his seclusive nature, probbably you wanted him to be more outgoing, if that's the case it's a case of I vs E not F vs T.)


no, not at all. some of my best bfs have been Is. as long as he has some measure of social skills, then it's not a big deal. the problem in this particular INFP relationship came from F vs T. i need both a playmate and a mindmate and in both ican be competitive (but all in good fun :crazy which would usually end up in hurt feelings on the part of the infp. the worse was with discussions because the more i get in debate mode, the less Fe I use but at the same time it was like his Fi/sensitivity levels were way up.






Hurting said:


> I think I do find the E's more exciting at the beginning of the relationship but what about the long term? Would they overwhelm me? I don't know. I have been dating an ESTJ for the past two weeks and he is very fun to talk to. But for the long term relationship would it work? An ESTJ is my total opposite.


the good thing about us E's is that we usually have lots of things going on at the same time (especially EPs) , so if you felt overwhelmed or needed downtime we wouldn't necessarily feel the need to try and guilt you into joining us. It would just be "OK see ya later and i'll tell you about it when i'm done"

if i place myself in the shoes of an IxFx dating and E type, I'd imagine that i'd need to first feel secure about the relationship before I'd be ok with him being all over the place. BUT ExTx _might _not naturally be able give you the reassurance you'd need in a relationship. i mean reassurance like saying things like I love you,you're pretty,i appreciate everything you do, etc. it's not that we don't think it, it's usually just that if we say it once it's true forever and ever until we tell you otherwise.


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## INFpharmacist (Aug 7, 2009)

LeelooDallas said:


> BUT ExTx _might _not naturally be able give you the reassurance you'd need in a relationship. i mean reassurance like saying things like I love you,you're pretty,i appreciate everything you do, etc. it's not that we don't think it, it's usually just that if we say it once it's true forever and ever until we tell you otherwise.


That sucks! :crying:


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## LeelooDallas (Sep 15, 2009)

INFpharmacist said:


> That sucks! :crying:


no cry you:frustrating:

i didnt complete my thought because i got distracted by FOOOD. :laughing:

i also meant to add that although we might not be able to naturally reassure you, that doesn't mean you can't communicate to us that you'd like us to give some verbal reassurances every now and then.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

T types can nurture their feelin'; F types can nurture the thinkin' .. and yeah, as generalities go, what has been said could be true for many - such as 'T' types not giving you what you need emotionally.. but, I'd say keep looking at the -individual- more, or you may pass up a T for example, who has nurtured their F, and could be supportive enough emotionally. 

So far as F types and T types being attracted to each other- well, yes, as a few people said, we compliment each other. I'd like to add that I think we can also help each other grow.. the f can soften someone very t.. and *treads softly* the t could help the f develop more t.. :happy:


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## INFpharmacist (Aug 7, 2009)

LeelooDallas said:


> no cry you:frustrating:
> 
> i didnt complete my thought because i got distracted by FOOOD. :laughing:
> 
> i also meant to add that although we might not be able to naturally reassure you, that doesn't mean you can't communicate to us that you'd like us to give some verbal reassurances every now and then.


Food? Lol!

I used to love talking to my ENTP Biochemistry professor in undergrad. I could sit down with him and just talk about all kinds of things. He would have made an excellent husband (to an IXFX), because I think he did understand the need for verbal reassurances. He loved all of his students, too.

He didn't have those nihilistic characteristics, like other ENTPs, either. So, I guess he was in the right career field... because he didn't feel the need to burn the place down and start over. :tongue:


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## Blue Butterfly (Sep 19, 2009)

LeelooDallas said:


> i also meant to add that although we might not be able to naturally reassure you, that doesn't mean you can't communicate to us that you'd like us to give some verbal reassurances every now and then.


That is good to know. This guy already tell me he thinks I am gorgeous and smart and I would want that often. So all I would have to say is that I need to be told that every so often. It is good to know that once you say it you really mean it. With feelers our opinion on things are always changing. We may love one day and not the next. Then the next day we may love again. confusing I know but we confuse ourselves.


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## Alchemical Romance (Nov 26, 2009)

LeelooDallas said:


> the more i get in debate mode, the less Fe I use


Hehe...that's probbably because of the nature of the debate. For example, if you take up the challenge we can hold a debate that strikes both T's and F's. that being "Pro and cons for linking man's evolution and progress to feeling and subjectivity, the goal making fuction which is of course feeling" Of course I do not imply that thinking didn't have a huge role in society's progress, just that any F will gladly discuss this, and with just a small amount of books can argue a strong "cold" rational argument for feeling's importance.
"To know why to feel" ...how cool is that 




LeelooDallas said:


> ExTx _might _not naturally be able give you the reassurance you'd need in a relationship. i mean reassurance like saying things like I love you,you're pretty,i appreciate everything you do


Do you really think that IxFx. appreciates endless unfounded praise? Maybe as a teenager... but after a few crappy relationships any individual especially F's begin to see a difference between saying "I Love you" and actually meaning it, between talking about respect and actually acting it. It's usually a brutal life lesson for the F, because we don't take those words lightly but we do find our way. [/quote]

Cheers


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## Blue Butterfly (Sep 19, 2009)

Promethea said:


> T types can nurture their feelin'; F types can nurture the thinkin' .. and yeah, as generalities go, what has been said could be true for many - such as 'T' types not giving you what you need emotionally.. but, I'd say keep looking at the -individual- more, or you may pass up a T for example, who has nurtured their F, and could be supportive enough emotionally.
> 
> So far as F types and T types being attracted to each other- well, yes, as a few people said, we compliment each other. I'd like to add that I think we can also help each other grow.. the f can soften someone very t.. and *treads softly* the t could help the f develop more t.. :happy:


This guy tested out as a low T very close to the F side. And his J side was very close to the P side. So he may have a higher understanding of the F side than most T's. If that is the case I think I would like to get to know more about him. I know I find him interesting.


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## INFpharmacist (Aug 7, 2009)

Alchemical Romance said:


> Do you really think that IxFx. appreciates endless unfounded praise? Maybe as a teenager... but after a few crappy relationships any individual especially F's begin to see a difference between saying "I Love you" and actually meaning it, between talking about respect and actually acting it. It's usually a brutal life lesson for the F, because we don't take those words lightly but we do find our way.


Being patted on the head all day long is annoying, but verbal reassurances are hard to come by whenever you're in a relationship with a strong T, in my opinion.


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## Alchemical Romance (Nov 26, 2009)

INFpharmacist said:


> Being patted on the head all day long is annoying, but verbal reassurances are hard to come by whenever you're in a relationship with a strong T, in my opinion.


yeah i know what you mean, for me(cause i don't want to speak in the name of the whole F population) emotional contact is necesary, but as long as it is non-standardized, i like originality, the 'i love you' ten times a day won't do. If you do something nice once a day let's say it's cool, and i act the same. ...aaah but that requires a little T. If it comes to supporting i think everybody requires support. Nobody can play the lone wolf forever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kept81213 (Dec 7, 2009)

I would say that verbal reassurances come with the E as well. I'm a ESTJ and I give the people I love a lot of verbal reassurances, from experience I would say that that is because I like to say my thoughts out loud. My mom is an ENFP and I always know how she feels about me, but my sister is an INFP and so I don't always know that she cares. It doesn't mean she doesn't care, probably like the IT's care as well. It's just all about whether you express things outwardly all the time or not.


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## LeelooDallas (Sep 15, 2009)

Alchemical Romance said:


> Hehe...that's probbably because of the nature of the debate. For example, if you take up the challenge we can hold a debate that strikes both T's and F's. that being "Pro and cons for linking man's evolution and progress to feeling and subjectivity, the goal making fuction which is of course feeling"


see this is a difference in what Fs consider debating and Ts consider debating. I'd never take part in that discussion because you have phrased the topic in such a way as to make an assumption as a fact (the goal making function which is* of course* feeling). Since I already know the topic itself is based on faulty logic, I already know that any arguments presented will also be based on faulty logic.




Alchemical Romance said:


> Do you really think that IxFx. appreciates endless unfounded praise? Maybe as a teenager... but after a few crappy relationships any individual especially F's begin to see a difference between saying "I Love you" and actually meaning it, between talking about respect and actually acting it. It's usually a brutal life lesson for the F, because we don't take those words lightly but we do find our way.


Cheers[/quote]

not sure from where you drew that conclusion  i said nothing about Fs needing endless praise



> I would say that verbal reassurances come with the E as well. I'm a ESTJ and I give the people I love a lot of verbal reassurances, from experience I would say that that is because I like to say my thoughts out loud. My mom is an ENFP and I always know how she feels about me, but my sister is an INFP and so I don't always know that she cares. It doesn't mean she doesn't care, probably like the IT's care as well. It's just all about whether you express things outwardly all the time or not.


could this be more a Te thing than an E thing?


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## kept81213 (Dec 7, 2009)

I'm not sure I think it probably comes from both. Extroverted thinkers are going to tell you more fact reassurances than introverted thinkers, whereas Extroverted feelers will probably tell you more feeling reassurances that introverted feelers. The introverted feelers in my life tend to show how they feel through actions usually, like my sister doesn't call me often or say I love you often, but she'll just come up and hug me randomly sometimes. My mom, who is an ENFP is married to an INTJ and he had to explain to her that saying i love you just a few times meant that he did love her, and so he felt like he then didn't need to say it a lot. But she asked him to change that a little to reassure her. I don't know about this but I am wondering if Extroverts need more verbal reassurances than introverts? Or maybe we just say it allowed more?


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## LeelooDallas (Sep 15, 2009)

kept81213 said:


> I'm not sure I think it probably comes from both. Extroverted thinkers are going to tell you more fact reassurances than introverted thinkers, whereas Extroverted feelers will probably tell you more feeling reassurances that introverted feelers. The introverted feelers in my life tend to show how they feel through actions usually, like my sister doesn't call me often or say I love you often, but she'll just come up and hug me randomly sometimes. My mom, who is an ENFP is married to an INTJ and he had to explain to her that saying i love you just a few times meant that he did love her, and so he felt like he then didn't need to say it a lot. But she asked him to change that a little to reassure her. I don't know about this but I am wondering if Extroverts need more verbal reassurances than introverts? Or maybe we just say it allowed more?


I don't know if we're talking about the same thing. I'm an extrovert and I'm a thinker but I'm not an extroverted thinker because Te is one of my shadow functions, and some Introverts have Te higher in their functions (IxTJs) than some Extroverts (ExTPs) so they're probably more likely to tell you what they are thinking than some extroverts. 

I guess this all comes down to the individual and how developed their feeling functions are..

plus i think needing reassurance has little to do with your personality type but more to do with needing to feel validated on a personal level. All types can have that need.


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## Alchemical Romance (Nov 26, 2009)

LeelooDallas said:


> I already know that any arguments presented will also be based on faulty logic.


Actually , you don't know.... and you know it :happy: ...you just made an assumption based on a prejudice "see this is a difference in what Fs consider debating" based on a sentence I uttered while riding a bike (see it's posted via mobile) trying to avoid traffic...yeah sure I said "of course" and you are correct in assessing my sentence as you did...but when leaping into the future...you don't know. Also I have to say I'm INXP so there's another reason for not jumping to conclusions.
Since when prejudice became T worthwhile?



LeelooDallas said:


> BUT ExTx might not naturally be able give you the reassurance you'd need in a relationship. i mean reassurance like saying things like I love you,you're pretty,i appreciate everything you do, etc. it's not that we don't think it, it's usually just that if we say it once it's true forever and ever


well people usually call "I love you,you're pretty,i appreciate everything you do" praise and " it's not that we don't think it, it's usually just that if we say it once it's true forever and ever" implies F's somehow want a recurrence of those statements, more than T's can provide, more than necessary. You didn't say endless you implied it.


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## thehigher (Apr 20, 2009)

I would love to go for feeling women. But make sure you let me know you are deep. I could go either way on T or F....make let me know that you have layers...and I will pursue you.


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## Rouge (Sep 6, 2009)

I'm probably being a perfectionistic INFJ, but I prefer a NT with a developed F, and a NF with a developed T. I'm not attracted to some NTs because I find them too blunt and lacking in empathy. Some NFs also send me running because they're too dramatic and emotional.

I don't think it's a matter of being a thinker or feeler, but being a balanced individual. Just my 2 cents.


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## InvisibleJim (Jun 30, 2009)

Because thinking and feeling are complimentary, not divergent!

Either that or instinctive men are more sane than objective :crazy:


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## Rouge (Sep 6, 2009)

InvisibleJim said:


> Because thinking and feeling are complimentary, not divergent!


I agree with you. But I also thought this was too obvious to mention.



InvisibleJim said:


> Either that or instinctive men are more sane than objective :crazy:


Self-congratulation, Jim? Or self defense? :laughing:


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## wisdom (Dec 31, 2008)

Hurting said:


> I got a marriage proposal not long ago because this guy said I looked like Crystal Gayle. I don't think I look like her but I have long hair like her.


You shooting for online marriage proposals?  Staring is creepy, okay, but what if it's mostly the introverted or Feeling men who do that? I say what if because I think an INFP or INFJ man would furtively glance instead of staring.


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## Blue Butterfly (Sep 19, 2009)

wisdom said:


> You shooting for online marriage proposals?  Staring is creepy, okay, but what if it's mostly the introverted or Feeling men who do that? I say what if because I think an INFP or INFJ man would furtively glance instead of staring.



I never even thought of that. Do you think an INFP or INFJ would do that? Should I go introduce myself to them? I would love to attract and INFP or INFJ.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

SeekJess said:


> I always attract you feelers. And its to the extreme, people with emotional problems love me! Other than the often ''ill stare at you for eye candy purposes''. I never get approached!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thinkers with emotional problems are possibly worse. Trust me....



wisdom said:


> Long hair is feminine. Men approach women who appeal to the eyes. Unfeeling men approach such women even if the woman (INFP) doesn't seem to want to be approached.


I'm not sure what hair has to do with this topic, but I know several men who express a preference for shorter hair in women (Feelers, interestingly). Not extremely short, but shorter styles. I think they associate it with women who are carefree, low maintenance, and cool in a tomboyish/rebellious way. I have long hair, so I found this interesting to hear from them. I don't like too short hair on men either....I need some hair to run my hands through :tongue:


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## Blue Butterfly (Sep 19, 2009)

OrangeAppled said:


> Thinkers with emotional problems are possibly worse. Trust me....
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what hair has to do with this topic, but I know several men who express a preference for shorter hair in women (Feelers, interestingly). Not extremely short, but shorter styles. I think they associate it with women who are carefree, low maintenance, and cool in a tomboyish/rebellious way. I have long hair, so I found this interesting to hear from them. I don't like too short hair on men either....I need some hair to run my hands through :tongue:


That is neat to know. Maybe I should cut my hair again and maybe I could attract a feeler.


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## wisdom (Dec 31, 2008)

I'm pretty sure the average man in any culture prefers long hair. It's probably a health/fertility indicator. (I guess it's less of an indicator for men due to the prevelance of baldness.) It can make the facial structure look more feminine, so a search teaches. why men like long hair - Google Search

Furtive glances isn't an idea I got from a book. Some of the more shy guys do it. I'm not sure an INFP woman would notice it, and I don't know how to advise getting into a conversation with that type of guy. Yes, your audience might be closer to what you want if your hair is shorter, but you'd weed out some Feelers, too. Although artsy clothing might be enough to keep them interested.


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## Blue Butterfly (Sep 19, 2009)

wisdom said:


> I'm pretty sure the average man in any culture prefers long hair. It's probably a health/fertility indicator. (I guess it's less of an indicator for men due to the prevelance of baldness.) It can make the facial structure look more feminine, so a search teaches. why men like long hair - Google Search
> 
> Furtive glances isn't an idea I got from a book. Some of the more shy guys do it. I'm not sure an INFP woman would notice it, and I don't know how to advise getting into a conversation with that type of guy.



I am going to Google it and see what that is all about. Thanks for the advice.


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## thehigher (Apr 20, 2009)

OrangeAppled said:


> Thinkers with emotional problems are possibly worse. Trust me....
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what hair has to do with this topic, but I know several men who express a preference for shorter hair in women (Feelers, interestingly). Not extremely short, but shorter styles. I think they associate it with women who are carefree, low maintenance, and cool in a tomboyish/rebellious way. I have long hair, so I found this interesting to hear from them. I don't like too short hair on men either....I need some hair to run my hands through :tongue:


Pretty sure I like long hair on women but I do love tom boys.


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## Blue Butterfly (Sep 19, 2009)

thehigher said:


> Pretty sure I like long hair on women but I do love tom boys.



What about a tom boy with long hair? That is pretty much me. I like to go fishing, hunting and I can fix my own car, do electrical work on my house, and do plumbing work.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

wisdom said:


> I'm pretty sure the average man in any culture prefers long hair.


I just find the idea of changing your appearance to fit "what men like" to be _*repugnant*_. If you like your hair short, wear it short. If you like it long, wear it long. 

If most men don't like it, then maybe _most_ men are not for you. Maybe you need someone more enlightened with less of a caveman attitude towards feminine beauty. It's the whole "what most men like" BS that sells trashy women's magazines with crap advice (ie. Cosmo) and what is behind the rise in cosmetic surgery.

I'm not looking for just any old guy anyway - I want someone special and unique who suits me. If every Feeler guy I met said he preferred short hair or blond hair or red hair or whatever, my hair is still staying the same because it suits ME, and _I_ like it.


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## thehigher (Apr 20, 2009)

Hurting said:


> What about a tom boy with long hair? That is pretty much me. I like to go fishing, hunting and I can fix my own car, do electrical work on my house, and do plumbing work.


 haha sounds good. I mean it comes down to personality really...cause you could be not a tomboy with short hair and have an attractive personality and if you stick around ill start to see things i like about you..and say...oh hey...i like that...when really it's all your personality. Happens all the time. So yea...no worries...but yea long hair tom boy sounds good.


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## Alchemical Romance (Nov 26, 2009)

OrangeAppled said:


> Thinkers with emotional problems are possibly worse. Trust me....
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what hair has to do with this topic, but I know several men who express a preference for shorter hair in women (Feelers, interestingly). Not extremely short, but shorter styles. I think they associate it with women who are carefree, low maintenance, and cool in a tomboyish/rebellious way. I have long hair, so I found this interesting to hear from them. I don't like too short hair on men either....I need some hair to run my hands through :tongue:


Well yeah I like tomboyish girls, but their attitude not their hair. I don't like girls that talk all day about cosmetics, latest face products, latest whatever products. They have a right to talk about that...but i show no interest in such things and listening to make an impression is not my game. About your "short hair females atract feeling males theory". There are SFJ males who usually are very conservatory and would probbably not like short hair women.



Hurting said:


> That is neat to know. Maybe I should cut my hair again and maybe I could attract a feeler.


change? why change... Like Orange Appled said wear whatever makes you feel good.



OrangeAppled said:


> I just find the idea of changing your appearance to fit "what men like" to be _*repugnant*_. If you like your hair short, wear it short. If you like it long, wear it long.
> 
> If most men don't like it, then maybe _most_ men are not for you. Maybe you need someone more enlightened with less of a caveman attitude towards feminine beauty. It's the whole "what most men like" BS that sells trashy women's magazines with crap advice (ie. Cosmo) and what is behind the rise in cosmetic surgery.
> 
> I'm not looking for just any old guy anyway - I want someone special and unique who suits me. If every Feeler guy I met said he preferred short hair or blond hair or red hair or whatever, my hair is still staying the same because it suits ME, and _I_ like it.


Thumbs up. And I may add that I have the same attitude towards women. I had girls that wanted me to get a tatoo. Naturally I said no. What's with this "do this so I will like you attitude both genders seem to have". Anyone feel free to enlighten me.


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## Blue Butterfly (Sep 19, 2009)

Alchemical Romance said:


> Well yeah I like tomboyish girls, but their attitude not their hair. I don't like girls that talk all day about cosmetics, latest face products, latest whatever products. They have a right to talk about that...but i show no interest in such things and listening to make an impression is not my game. About your "short hair females atract feeling males theory". There are SFJ males who usually are very conservatory and would probbably not like short hair women.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I do like my long hair and most likely will never cut it again accept for trimming the ends at time.

And I am not sure what that attitude is about other people wanted someone to change so others will like them. But I do get that all the time from mostly women. I never did that to a man though.


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## Blue Butterfly (Sep 19, 2009)

OrangeAppled said:


> I just find the idea of changing your appearance to fit "what men like" to be _*repugnant*_. If you like your hair short, wear it short. If you like it long, wear it long.
> 
> If most men don't like it, then maybe _most_ men are not for you. Maybe you need someone more enlightened with less of a caveman attitude towards feminine beauty. It's the whole "what most men like" BS that sells trashy women's magazines with crap advice (ie. Cosmo) and what is behind the rise in cosmetic surgery.
> 
> I'm not looking for just any old guy anyway - I want someone special and unique who suits me. If every Feeler guy I met said he preferred short hair or blond hair or red hair or whatever, my hair is still staying the same because it suits ME, and _I_ like it.



I so agree with you on this one. I don't do what most people do anyway. I have always been like that. And neither am I looking for just any guy. Men are a dime a dozen but that truly special on is rare as anything on earth.


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## Alchemical Romance (Nov 26, 2009)

Hurting said:


> I do like my long hair and most likely will never cut it again accept for trimming the ends at time.
> 
> And I am not sure what that attitude is about other people wanted someone to change so others will like them. But I do get that all the time from mostly women. I never did that to a man though.


See the way I see it there is a matter of aestethics. Some people care more about such exterior matters. Length of hair, haircut, eye liner eye shadow, and whatever things that some think improves their looks. Some don't. It's not a gender thing really. So it's not really about men's expectations or women's expectation. Some men have very big aestethic criteria, some don't, some women may have very big aestethic criteria and some don't. For my part if I meet a sensible woman lat loves me with whom I can have a conversation it's enough...she may look however.


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## LeelooDallas (Sep 15, 2009)

OrangeAppled said:


> I just find the idea of changing your appearance to fit "what men like" to be _*repugnant*_. If you like your hair short, wear it short. If you like it long, wear it long.
> 
> If most men don't like it, then maybe _most_ men are not for you. Maybe you need someone more enlightened with less of a caveman attitude towards feminine beauty. It's the whole "what most men like" BS that sells trashy women's magazines with crap advice (ie. Cosmo) and what is behind the rise in cosmetic surgery.
> 
> I'm not looking for just any old guy anyway - I want someone special and unique who suits me. If every Feeler guy I met said he preferred short hair or blond hair or red hair or whatever, my hair is still staying the same because it suits ME, and _I_ like it.


repugnant and pointless because i think many women don't really have a clue as to what many men like and assume that guys want to see the same thing they want to see (ie this smokey eye phenomenon that just won't go away). they just assume that men like a certain look, will bust their asses trying to achieve that look and have an attitude that because they are wearing this uniform guys should fall to their knees before them. 

for instance, i have a few female friends who are convinced that the only way they will get approached by guys is if they are dressed up in dresses and skirts with heels and makeup and they would inconvenience themselves with always looking like this than be seen out in public (even going grocery shopping on a saturday afternoon) in lounge wear. my experience has shown me that guys who think you're attractive and interesting will come up to you no matter what length hair you have (i've been everything from super short practically bald and waist length) , clothes you wear or shoes you wear. 


and i'm gonna have to say that shorter hair is more high maintenance for me than longer hair. at least with longer hair i can always wake up and fluff it out (i have really thick curly hair) or throw it into a bun


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## Blue Butterfly (Sep 19, 2009)

Alchemical Romance said:


> See the way I see it there is a matter of aestethics. Some people care more about such exterior matters. Length of hair, haircut, eye liner eye shadow, and whatever things that some think improves their looks. Some don't. It's not a gender thing really. So it's not really about men's expectations or women's expectation. Some men have very big aestethic criteria, some don't, some women may have very big aestethic criteria and some don't. For my part if I meet a sensible woman lat loves me with whom I can have a conversation it's enough...she may look however.



I wish there were more men like you on earth. You seem like a very special person. I have known men to want only skinny blond woman and would ever look at any other type no matter what a good person she is on the inside. I think if more people like you existed more people would find true happiness.


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## Blue Butterfly (Sep 19, 2009)

LeelooDallas said:


> repugnant and pointless because i think many women don't really have a clue as to what many men like and assume that guys want to see the same thing they want to see (ie this smokey eye phenomenon that just won't go away). they just assume that men like a certain look, will bust their asses trying to achieve that look and have an attitude that because they are wearing this uniform guys should fall to their knees before them.
> 
> for instance, i have a few female friends who are convinced that the only way they will get approached by guys is if they are dressed up in dresses and skirts with heels and makeup and they would inconvenience themselves with always looking like this than be seen out in public (even going grocery shopping on a saturday afternoon) in lounge wear. my experience has shown me that guys who think you're attractive and interesting will come up to you no matter what length hair you have (i've been everything from super short practically bald and waist length) , clothes you wear or shoes you wear.
> 
> ...


I agree on this. All I do is wash my hair and comb it. Very little maintenance for me too. The less I have to mess with it the better. And if people don't like it then they can look the other way. That is my attitude anyway.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

LeelooDallas said:


> repugnant and pointless because i think many women don't really have a clue as to what many men like and assume that guys want to see the same thing they want to see (ie this smokey eye phenomenon that just won't go away). they just assume that men like a certain look, will bust their asses trying to achieve that look and have an attitude that because they are wearing this uniform guys should fall to their knees before them.
> 
> for instance, i have a few female friends who are convinced that the only way they will get approached by guys is if they are dressed up in dresses and skirts with heels and makeup and they would inconvenience themselves with always looking like this than be seen out in public (even going grocery shopping on a saturday afternoon) in lounge wear. my experience has shown me that guys who think you're attractive and interesting will come up to you no matter what length hair you have (i've been everything from super short practically bald and waist length) , clothes you wear or shoes you wear.
> 
> ...


I think a lot of guys DO like the same thing. Look at threads where they post photos of women they think are hot. Read their descriptions of what they find ideal. It's all long hair, big boobs, big lips... The same faces and bodies over and over. I can't even tell these women apart. Luckily, not all men are most men and some can see beauty in a variety of people.

I find my long hair easier also, but I was just explaining why these guys I know said they prefer shorter hair. The point was, whatever most men prefer means very little to me. I don't exist to please most men. 




Alchemical Romance said:


> About your "short hair females atract feeling males theory". There are SFJ males who usually are very conservatory and would probbably not like short hair women.


It's not a theory, it was just to show there are exceptions to these rules (and thank goodness).




> Thumbs up. And I may add that I have the same attitude towards women. I had girls that wanted me to get a tatoo. Naturally I said no. What's with this "do this so I will like you attitude both genders seem to have". Anyone feel free to enlighten me.


I agree. I hate when women date guys with the intention to change them, be it looks or personality. I don't want to date some guy and act like his mom and pick clothes out for him, unless he specifically asks for my opinion. Whoever dates me will have to like that I am girly, view fashion as art, and use clothes/makeup as self-expression.


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## Alchemical Romance (Nov 26, 2009)

LeelooDallas said:


> repugnant and pointless because i think many women don't really have a clue as to what many men like and assume that guys want to see the same thing they want to see (ie this smokey eye phenomenon that just won't go away). they just assume that men like a certain look, will bust their asses trying to achieve that look and have an attitude that because they are wearing this uniform guys should fall to their knees before them.
> 
> for instance, i have a few female friends who are convinced that the only way they will get approached by guys is if they are dressed up in dresses and skirts with heels and makeup and they would inconvenience themselves with always looking like this than be seen out in public (even going grocery shopping on a saturday afternoon) in lounge wear. my experience has shown me that guys who think you're attractive and interesting will come up to you no matter what length hair you have (i've been everything from super short practically bald and waist length) , clothes you wear or shoes you wear.
> 
> ...


Of course some guys have certain expectancies but it's also probbably true that in lack of that they'll settle for something else. But the aestethic expectancy is still there. Also other men would appreciate intelligence or kindheartedness not paying attention to hair and such. In any case you're ignoring one big thing that being the female-female competition. This is a competition whose sole purpouse is to piss off the nearest female by looking "better". I wonder if your friends really tell the truth about whom they aim. Many men think women dress-up and fancy themselves for them, but the truth goes both ways. Some do it for the men, some do it for the competition, some don't care and are more individualistic, which is nice in a way. Also there's the thing i always found funny. Women that say "I'm doing it for myself not for others" really now? Suppose you crash on a deserted island with trunk full of clothes and cosmetics. I don't think any woman would loose the time she has with hair trimming in those circumstances or makeup. 



Hurting said:


> I wish there were more men like you on earth. You seem like a very special person. I have known men to want only skinny blond woman and would ever look at any other type no matter what a good person she is on the inside. I think if more people like you existed more people would find true happiness.


Thank you for the compliment. I have been called many names but special wasn't one of them. I have usually been called a fool for what I think. I have my flaws too like anyone else.... You seem to be a rare flower yourself too, that's why I said don't compromise your values just because some guy has a fetish of some hair size/color. It ain't worth it. You are a person, you worth more than that. There are guys that would love to appreciate who women are "on the inside"...but the women that want to be appreciated like that are pretty rare :sad: On my account I'll always look for such a person and i'll continue not to give a crap bout "smokey eye phenomenons" and the such.:tongue:


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## Alchemical Romance (Nov 26, 2009)

OrangeAppled said:


> Whoever dates me will have to like that I am girly, view fashion as art, and use clothes/makeup as self-expression.


Don't take me critical, i am not, but isn't self expression still a "something" you do so that others may see? The only difference is that you do it not to please others but you do it so that others see your specific blend of uniqueness. In each case you are not independent because you depend on a viewer. I am asking this because I thought just like you regarding self expression, still do it's better that going with the crowd but it's still "crowd dependant". Also the same question I posed earlier. If you'd crash on a deserted island with a trunk full of makeup would you still self express to the nooneness around you?


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

Alchemical Romance said:


> Don't take me critical, i am not, but isn't self expression still a "something" you do so that others may see? The only difference is that you do it not to please others but you do it so that others see your specific blend of uniqueness. In each case you are not independent because you depend on a viewer. I am asking this because I thought just like you regarding self expression, still do it's better that going with the crowd but it's still "crowd dependant". Also the same question I posed earlier. If you'd crash on a deserted island with a trunk full of makeup would you still self express to the nooneness around you?


I would absolutely still use makeup and clothes as expression in your deserted island scenario, just as I would still continue to draw and write if possible. I see my face and body as a potential canvas when I am feeling creative. It's bringing art into my everyday life if I choose, but sometimes I choose to be simple. It's all about my mood.

Expression is making what is internal become external, and everyone needs an outlet or they would explode. Every human being has a need to connect and be understood in some way. However, I don't want to connect under false pretenses. I want to show who I am and what I feel, not who people think I should be or should feel. Does that mean I am entirely original? No, but it's still coming from an authentic place. In that sense, I think it is autonomous and not dependent on other people, because it is done to serve my purposes.

Don't get me wrong though....I am not saying that I don't care what people think at all, and that I don't want to be viewed a certain way. I value other people's opinions, and I have a clear image of myself that I would like to convey. I hate being misunderstood, and being a quiet person, my appearance can sometimes speak for me.

And yes, it is nice to feel attractive and I understand the desire to be so, but I won't compromise who I am just to be called "hot". I also think a certain amount of grooming is necessary to be appropriate for public. It shows respect to your fellow humans to make some effort and put on clean clothes and that sort of thing. So part of my appearance is grooming, but part is expression because it has nothing to do with practicality. It's just using colors and textures and shapes to give a glimpse of what is inside of my head.


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## Pied Tubist (Nov 10, 2009)

Ideally, I'd have loved to have met and married a feeling woman, but after a certain age you get a lot less picky because being alone sucks. Back when I was young I had clue what a thinker or feeler even was -- I really wish I had . As it is, my wife came along at a time in my life when I was really down both emotionally and financially, I was tired of beng alone, the woman I married convinced me that she loved me and she had a pretty face. That was enough for me.


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## Blue Butterfly (Sep 19, 2009)

Pied Tubist said:


> Ideally, I'd have loved to have met and married a feeling woman, but after a certain age you get a lot less picky because being alone sucks. Back when I was young I had clue what a thinker or feeler even was -- I really wish I had . As it is, my wife came along at a time in my life when I was really down both emotionally and financially, I was tired of beng alone, the woman I married convinced me that she loved me and she had a pretty face. That was enough for me.



Do you love each other? From the tone of your message is seems like you are just married without any real love involved.


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## Alchemical Romance (Nov 26, 2009)

OrangeAppled said:


> I would absolutely still use makeup and clothes as expression in your deserted island scenario, just as I would still continue to draw and write if possible. I see my face and body as a potential canvas when I am feeling creative. It's bringing art into my everyday life if I choose, but sometimes I choose to be simple. It's all about my mood.
> 
> Expression is making what is internal become external, and everyone needs an outlet or they would explode. Every human being has a need to connect and be understood in some way. However, I don't want to connect under false pretenses. I want to show who I am and what I feel, not who people think I should be or should feel. Does that mean I am entirely original? No, but it's still coming from an authentic place. In that sense, I think it is autonomous and not dependent on other people, because it is done to serve my purposes.
> 
> ...


Yes i deeply respect your attitude, the world needs women like you, however you didn't undestand my point. You say you want to give a glimpse of what's in your head 'send a message' and call that autonomous.? See it's not autonomous since 'the message' depends on a receiver that validates the content. You may not care if the receiver likes it but as you said you need to 'show' your inner state. And perceisly to other people since you yourself know the feelings that you take from the inside and place outside. Again you said that because of your inward nature, your apearance does the talking. Don't get me wrong, all you said is very beautifull, i myself relate to your words. But it's not autonomous. You,as I do too, make a stand for who you are. But we're basically posing 'our thing' with a big emphasis on the word OUR to the public, just like top models do in magazines. We just have a different medium. Needless to say the posing and wish to be appreciated for who we are is pointless without an audience to do the appreciating. That's why we too depend on the audience,therefore we're not autonomous, no matter how pure and sincere we are about who we are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

Alchemical Romance said:


> Yes i deeply respect your attitude, the world needs women like you, however you didn't undestand my point. You say you want to give a glimpse of what's in your head 'send a message' and call that autonomous.? See it's not autonomous since 'the message' depends on a receiver that validates the content. You may not care if the receiver likes it but as you said you need to 'show' your inner state. And perceisly to other people since you yourself know the feelings that you take from the inside and place outside. Again you said that because of your inward nature, your apearance does the talking. Don't get me wrong, all you said is very beautifull, i myself relate to your words. But it's not autonomous. You,as I do too, make a stand for who you are. But we're basically posing 'our thing' with a big emphasis on the word OUR to the public, just like top models do in magazines. We just have a different medium. Needless to say the posing and wish to be appreciated for who we are is pointless without an audience to do the appreciating. That's why we too depend on the audience,therefore we're not autonomous, no matter how pure and sincere we are about who we are.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, I think you missed the main point. I don't need an audience to validate anything. If I present myself a certain way, but people don't see it the way I do, that doesn't mean I failed; it is still ME. If I create an image and no one sees it, then it doesn't make it any less real. Hence your little desert island scenario...but I'll give you a real world scenario. I work out of my home and don't leave the house some days. Often, I will still get fully dressed, and I might even experiment with my look the most those days. Not only is it practical in case I do leave the house, but I feel more like myself. If I go too many days in my PJs, I get depressed. It's a creative challenge that allows expression, whether someone is there or not. And yes, there are other reasons I mentioned, like connecting and communicating with others, etc., but that is not the sole reason, or even the main reason. It's the same as writing or drawing - it's great when other people see/read something you've made and grasp it and understand you a little better because of it; but ultimately, you do it to express yourself, and it feels good to get it out there, whether anyone ever sees it or not. The need to create is inherent for some people and will be done with or without an audience. Fashion and cosmetics are just another outlet for creativity.


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## Pied Tubist (Nov 10, 2009)

Hurting said:


> Do you love each other? From the tone of your message is seems like you are just married without any real love involved.


It feels that way sometimes Hurting. I go through periods where we get along better and then others where things are VERY difficult. I'll never divorce her, leave her or cheat on her, but sometimes it feels more like I love her out of duty than anything else. Today has been kind of rough.

Other times I just look at her and my heart melts. We're very different people and it would help so much if I could ever get her really interested in Myers Briggs, but that doesn't seem to be possible. I try to read up on her type and that has helped at least some.


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## wisdom (Dec 31, 2008)

OrangeAppled said:


> No, I think you missed the main point. I don't need an audience to validate anything. If I present myself a certain way, but people don't see it the way I do, that doesn't mean I failed; it is still ME. If I create an image and no one sees it, then it doesn't make it any less real. Hence your little desert island scenario...but I'll give you a real world scenario. I work out of my home and don't leave the house some days. Often, I will still get fully dressed, and I might even experiment with my look the most those days. Not only is it practical in case I do leave the house, but I feel more like myself. If I go too many days in my PJs, I get depressed. It's a creative challenge that allows expression, whether someone is there or not. And yes, there are other reasons I mentioned, like connecting and communicating with others, etc., but that is not the sole reason, or even the main reason. It's the same as writing or drawing - it's great when other people see/read something you've made and grasp it and understand you a little better because of it; but ultimately, you do it to express yourself, and it feels good to get it out there, whether anyone ever sees it or not. The need to create is inherent for some people and will be done with or without an audience. Fashion and cosmetics are just another outlet for creativity.


I've previously been at the center of this divisive subject (the idea that women should dress up to please "superficial" men), although Hurting or someone else brought it up first and she seemed open to change. I will emphasize what I've said before: nobody's style should revolve mostly around the potential audience. I quoted the paragraph above because that is similar to my situation and approach to personal style. Except that I'm not as passionate about it and will take into account how others might react. I do because otherwise my natural lack of awareness causes me pain. People get the wrong idea about my age or sexuality, for example. So sometimes I'll avoid certain color combinations and very casual looks and maybe wear clothes a little more fitted than matters to me if by myself. I consider that common sense. (It's sometimes a worthy challenge, too. How to live dangerously but not too dangerously.) Disregard for de facto advertising is a self-defeating philosophy.


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## Alchemical Romance (Nov 26, 2009)

OrangeAppled said:


> No, I think you missed the main point. I don't need an audience to validate anything. If I present myself a certain way, but people don't see it the way I do, that doesn't mean I failed; it is still ME. If I create an image and no one sees it, then it doesn't make it any less real. Hence your little desert island scenario...but I'll give you a real world scenario. I work out of my home and don't leave the house some days. Often, I will still get fully dressed, and I might even experiment with my look the most those days. Not only is it practical in case I do leave the house, but I feel more like myself. If I go too many days in my PJs, I get depressed. It's a creative challenge that allows expression, whether someone is there or not. And yes, there are other reasons I mentioned, like connecting and communicating with others, etc., but that is not the sole reason, or even the main reason. It's the same as writing or drawing - it's great when other people see/read something you've made and grasp it and understand you a little better because of it; but ultimately, you do it to express yourself, and it feels good to get it out there, whether anyone ever sees it or not. The need to create is inherent for some people and will be done with or without an audience. Fashion and cosmetics are just another outlet for creativity.


No , i disagree. You understood only half. Let's take for example this situation: X is a woman that observes behaviour around her. For example she observes the behaviour of a lot of Y's that treat women in conformity with some sort of shallow criteria like the abstract "hot". So then X might say, well this is absolutely repugnant, I am an individual I have feelings, I have imagination I have a lot of inward qualities, I don't want those to be overlooked at the expense of their criteria. I will show them who I am what a wonderful person I can be in my own way. etc.. All fine and dandy until now. But what triggered this determination towards self-expression? Was it not a reaction to the Y's and their criteria? Think a little, If the world was filled only with people like you, If we were all the same to the last T would you still self express? To what end? Somebody else would have written the same poem because they would have had the same feelings, they'd all have the same make-up, the same experiances, the same anxieties. But no, you do want to self express because you perceive a diference from the rest, something that makes you you and not somebody else, therefore your wish to self express is dependant on how others behave. Your self expression is somewhat a rebellion against the established rules, but would it exist if those that establish rules would not? Some personalities form by copying some by opossitions, yours forms by oposition. And opposition is necessary for you to discern good from bad, love from hate etc. But if a something is required for you to oppose or accept in order to establish your own self, then you don't do it alone and you're not autonomous. Yes I may have given a wrong example about the Island because I realize now that you'd probbably would continue to self express because you came from an environment that already shaped your personality, but let's say you are born on the island and left there and somehow through a miracle you survive. Would you treasure self expression so much? Would you pride yourself for being different that much? Different from who? You're the only bloody inhabitant of the planet for all you know. :crazy:


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## INFpharmacist (Aug 7, 2009)

Alchemical Romance said:


> No , i disagree. You understood only half. Let's take for example this situation: X is a woman that observes behaviour around her. For example she observes the behaviour of a lot of Y's that treat women in conformity with some sort of shallow criteria like the abstract "hot". So then X might say, well this is absolutely repugnant, I am an individual I have feelings, I have imagination I have a lot of inward qualities, I don't want those to be overlooked at the expense of their criteria. I will show them who I am what a wonderful person I can be in my own way. etc.. All fine and dandy until now. But what triggered this determination towards self-expression? Was it not a reaction to the Y's and their criteria? Think a little, If the world was filled only with people like you, If we were all the same to the last T would you still self express? To what end? Somebody else would have written the same poem because they would have had the same feelings, they'd all have the same make-up, the same experiances, the same anxieties. But no, you do want to self express because you perceive a diference from the rest, something that makes you you and not somebody else, therefore your wish to self express is dependant on how others behave. Your self expression is somewhat a rebellion against the established rules, but would it exist if those that establish rules would not? Some personalities form by copying some by opossitions, yours forms by oposition. And opposition is necessary for you to discern good from bad, love from hate etc. But if a something is required for you to oppose or accept in order to establish your own self, then you don't do it alone and you're not autonomous. Yes I may have given a wrong example about the Island because I realize now that you'd probbably would continue to self express because you came from an environment that already shaped your personality, but let's say you are born on the island and left there and somehow through a miracle you survive. Would you treasure self expression so much? Would you pride yourself for being different that much? Different from who? You're the only bloody inhabitant of the planet for all you know. :crazy:


You changed the scenario. Nevermind...


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## Alchemical Romance (Nov 26, 2009)

INFpharmacist said:


> You changed the scenario. Nevermind...


I changed the island scenario. I admitted I was wrong with the first scenario. But I never changed my point. Self expression is done in antithesis with other forms of expression. It's something that says "I don't want to be judged by those standards" But you cannot thoroughly shape your personality alone. You need oposition. That's the whole cornerstone of Carl Jung and MBTI. IvsE, NvsS,FvsT,PvsJ. Finding out who you are by really seeing which clothes fit and which do not.


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## gonecrazytoo (Dec 22, 2009)

Okay, not sure this will help anyone at all.
I have a feeling man. He is INFJ. He is uncommonly gentle and kind without losing what makes him a man in the first place. He is very good at sharing his emotional nature and at looking for 'what's in my heart'. I am an ISFJ, but I am also a 5. I want, I need, I crave for the emotional connection. And then I need time alone. I know it's strange, but the INFJ seems to have just enough odd quirks to be a good match for us both. He is also a 5. At first I wondered if this would be just too weird, but over the last couple of years it has only gotten better. I don't worry when he backs away and spends days at a time in his own corner. He doesn't mind when I do the same... but we both need to feel the emotional connection, and it's very easy and fluid between us. We KNOW how volatile two emotional people can be if we are not careful, so we have agreed to a few ground rules to keep things from getting out of hand, should the situation arise. Rather than hurt me, he will become silent, and he will say, 'that's all I have to say about that'. And he means it. Until he can control his emotions on a matter, he remains silent about it. When we get angry and say hurtful things, we agree that it's okay to cry, that it is not taking any emotional hostages. It's the sign to STOP, regroup. Two IFJ's with iron clad stubborn wills. I agree, it can be the making of disaster, but it can also be explosively wonderful and satisfying if handled in a positive way.

To me, the point of learning about my personality and temperament is to give myself the tools to improve upon what God has given me. And to understand others better, and how I relate to them, and how I can make that better as well. I believe that we can mix and match any personality types we want if we always follow the golden rule. Always show the amount of respect to your loved ones as you would show to complete strangers. Polite is not just a word, or something we show in public, it is a way of life and one that my love and I strive every day to maintain. 

Still a major work in progress, let me assure you, but well, very well worth the effort.


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## Blue Butterfly (Sep 19, 2009)

gonecrazytoo said:


> Okay, not sure this will help anyone at all.
> I have a feeling man. He is INFJ. He is uncommonly gentle and kind without losing what makes him a man in the first place. He is very good at sharing his emotional nature and at looking for 'what's in my heart'. I am an ISFJ, but I am also a 5. I want, I need, I crave for the emotional connection. And then I need time alone. I know it's strange, but the INFJ seems to have just enough odd quirks to be a good match for us both. He is also a 5. At first I wondered if this would be just too weird, but over the last couple of years it has only gotten better. I don't worry when he backs away and spends days at a time in his own corner. He doesn't mind when I do the same... but we both need to feel the emotional connection, and it's very easy and fluid between us. We KNOW how volatile two emotional people can be if we are not careful, so we have agreed to a few ground rules to keep things from getting out of hand, should the situation arise. Rather than hurt me, he will become silent, and he will say, 'that's all I have to say about that'. And he means it. Until he can control his emotions on a matter, he remains silent about it. When we get angry and say hurtful things, we agree that it's okay to cry, that it is not taking any emotional hostages. It's the sign to STOP, regroup. Two IFJ's with iron clad stubborn wills. I agree, it can be the making of disaster, but it can also be explosively wonderful and satisfying if handled in a positive way.
> 
> To me, the point of learning about my personality and temperament is to give myself the tools to improve upon what God has given me. And to understand others better, and how I relate to them, and how I can make that better as well. I believe that we can mix and match any personality types we want if we always follow the golden rule. Always show the amount of respect to your loved ones as you would show to complete strangers. Polite is not just a word, or something we show in public, it is a way of life and one that my love and I strive every day to maintain.
> ...



That was awesome and exactly what I am looking for. Almost every man I attract turns out to be a thinker. And I would love to date a feeler and I think I may have found one. I am not sure what is personality type is but he did say the emotional connection to him is of more value than the physical connection. I have never had a man tell me that before. This may be a good match. I was dating and ESFJ and he was sweet as a peach but wants to talk for hours one end. He sucks the life out of me.


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## Mutatio NOmenis (Jun 22, 2009)

Hurting said:


> I seem to attract the thinkers. I would really like to date a feeling man but I don't seem to attract these. Maybe some feeling men could answer why?


It's because F men are so damn rare. I'm sorry, but that's the truth. Also, a good number of F men try to hide their F-ness, so the number of real F men is higher than the apparent number of F men.


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## Darity (Dec 17, 2009)

F women make me rawr. I can only speak for myself, but I do feel more attracted to F women in general.


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## gonecrazytoo (Dec 22, 2009)

> I was dating and ESFJ and he was sweet as a peach but wants to talk for hours one end. He sucks the life out of me.



My good friend is ESFJ and another ENFJ. Both are very social. The thing I notice is...... they are 'givers'. As an ISFJ, I am a born giver, that pretty much goes without saying here, right? But I think it's important for many I's who wish to have relationships with E's to find those that are givers. I think it helps balance out that part that exhausts us so much. E's take our energy, but if they are also givers... I think they don't take nearly so much of our energy, or maybe just that they are also giving back to us as much as they are taking? It's just a theory. 

I am very very introverted. Extremely reclusive. So I notice when I can have a friend that doesn't wear me to a frazzle.... and obviously as an 'I', it's a curious revelation to find an E that I am completely comfortable with. I think everyone should know an ESFJ that is completely healthy, fun... and has a wicked sense of humor. Ruth, if you ever read this, you are completely awesome!


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## wisdom (Dec 31, 2008)

Hurting, it sounds like you want an INFP or INFJ male. Have you ever tried online dating? I almost never see INFP-like dating profiles, not even on this website, but maybe there are enough people around here that you could meet someone informally. Much easier than meeting and mingling with one in person, I'm pretty sure.


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## Blue Butterfly (Sep 19, 2009)

wisdom said:


> Hurting, it sounds like you want an INFP or INFJ male. Have you ever tried online dating? I almost never see INFP-like dating profiles, not even on this website, but maybe there are enough people around here that you could meet someone informally. Much easier than meeting and mingling with one in person, I'm pretty sure.



That is exactly what I want to experience. I would love to meet one in person. Well I did an INFJ and I fell madly in love with him but he would never make moves to catch me. So I got away. By the way I also want him to chase me until I decide I want to catch him. And INFP and INFJ men just don't seem to have that ability in them.


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## wisdom (Dec 31, 2008)

Maybe generally not in person, but if online courting would be good enough for you, I think that could happen.


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## Blue Butterfly (Sep 19, 2009)

wisdom said:


> Maybe generally not in person, but if online courting would be good enough for you, I think that could happen.




I have tried the online dating and sometimes I like it and other times I don't. If I could find a feeler just to get to know better either in person or online that would be great for me.


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## gonecrazytoo (Dec 22, 2009)

I met my INFJ online.
I stumbles across his profile. When I got to the part about what he was looking for in a woman.... he had a list of descriptive words and as I scanned them I was grinning. I counted them. 10 words, I match 9 of them. That's what gave me the courage to send him a message.

We started very slow. Asking questions... I definitely asked more questions than he ever did. But, I volunteered things about myself. I told him stories about my family, about my childhood. I had to put forth the effort to keep the communications going. By asking him questions I was giving him the reason to write his next email to me. Then he began asking me to 'chat', and again, I had to ask questions and keep him engaged a bit, but it was a lovely way to spend time together. Then he began calling me....... that was the trigger. He said he was discontinuing his membership in the online dating site... but he would NOT ask me to do the same... so I simply told him I would do the same. He was amazed and excited and he thanked me endlessly and that is when I realized that he truly was interested, just not very good at showing it. 

He was making up his mind, and then suddenly he made his choice and he didn't want to scare me away, i think.

He tells me that he doesn't want to 'bother' me. After all this time? I remind him that love is about 'sharing our lives' and that he is never bothering me.

I don't know if there is an 'F' out there that will 'chase' you until you wish to be caught. You might have to do the chasing and make him think it was all his idea! That's exactly what I did with my INFJ. And truly, it IS their idea, you just have to be willing to go that extra distance. This might be the difference between the T and the F, I don't know.


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## Blue Butterfly (Sep 19, 2009)

gonecrazytoo said:


> I met my INFJ online.
> I stumbles across his profile. When I got to the part about what he was looking for in a woman.... he had a list of descriptive words and as I scanned them I was grinning. I counted them. 10 words, I match 9 of them. That's what gave me the courage to send him a message.
> 
> We started very slow. Asking questions... I definitely asked more questions than he ever did. But, I volunteered things about myself. I told him stories about my family, about my childhood. I had to put forth the effort to keep the communications going. By asking him questions I was giving him the reason to write his next email to me. Then he began asking me to 'chat', and again, I had to ask questions and keep him engaged a bit, but it was a lovely way to spend time together. Then he began calling me....... that was the trigger. He said he was discontinuing his membership in the online dating site... but he would NOT ask me to do the same... so I simply told him I would do the same. He was amazed and excited and he thanked me endlessly and that is when I realized that he truly was interested, just not very good at showing it.
> ...



In most relationships it is really the woman that takes the lead. The smart woman do jut was you stated and makes the man think he is the one making all the moves. I think men like thinking they are in control. For me I want one that really does see me as not like any other woman he has ever met. I want a shy one to have to work to overcome his shyness just to chase me. I want him to view me as so special I would be worth the risk of rejection. I want him to make me feel like I am the most special person on earth. Is that to much to ask for?


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## Spooky (Oct 30, 2008)

Hurting said:


> In most relationships it is really the woman that takes the lead. The smart woman do jut was you stated and makes the man think he is the one making all the moves. I think men like thinking they are in control. For me I want one that really does see me as not like any other woman he has ever met. I want a shy one to have to work to overcome his shyness just to chase me. I want him to view me as so special I would be worth the risk of rejection. I want him to make me feel like I am the most special person on earth. Is that to much to ask for?


Would it be too much to ask you to do the same?


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## gonecrazytoo (Dec 22, 2009)

> I want him to make me feel like I am the most special person on earth. Is that to much to ask for?


I wish you could read some of my correspondence with my guy.
I think you would gain a very interesting insight into the feeling man.
He has certainly gone out of his way to make me feel special.

Don't mistake shyness for introversion. They are two entirely different things. Not to say an introverted person can not be shy, as I am a good example of that. He did not 'chase' me, he simply showed his interest. But it's not like he wrote to me every day, because he did not. But I am such a deep introvert, that I knew. He told me right from the start that he lived an introverted lifestyle, and because he stated that to me right up front, I knew exactly what to expect. 

I guess what I am saying is... watch for the blatant things and watch for the small clues. Your definition of 'chase' and his definition might not be the same, but the intent will still be there. 

You said you wanted a feeling man. I am trying to tell you how I got mine. But I am only one person and there are billions out there. :tongue:

Never give up hope. Recognize opportunity when it knocks  He might surprise you.


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## gonecrazytoo (Dec 22, 2009)

Spooky said:


> Would it be too much to ask you for to do the same?




That a very good point. Thank you for pointing that out, I missed that entirely. You are so right. 
It makes a HUGE difference to give what I expect to receive!


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## LeelooDallas (Sep 15, 2009)

when i think of the term chase i think that the other party is running away and therefore not interested. i dont get it, are you saying you want someone to nag you until you give in? that sounds like you're more into the fact of him being into, not necessarily the two of you being into each other..


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## Slider (Nov 17, 2009)

Hurting said:


> In most relationships it is really the woman that takes the lead. The smart woman do jut was you stated and makes the man think he is the one making all the moves. I think men like thinking they are in control. For me I want one that really does see me as not like any other woman he has ever met. I want a shy one to have to work to overcome his shyness just to chase me. I want him to view me as so special I would be worth the risk of rejection. I want him to make me feel like I am the most special person on earth. Is that to much to ask for?


 
No, it's not too much to ask and I also agree with Gonecrazy's assessment, as well.

I recently had a very unattractive female contact me and begin asking questions. I didn't want to be rude so I answered her questions, but I'm not the type of person who will ask my own questions just to keep the conversation moving forward.

You have to keep me interested or else I'll get bored and go do something else.


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## gonecrazytoo (Dec 22, 2009)

> You have to keep me interested or else I'll get bored and go do something else.




This is typical of my guy even though he loves me dearly. Sometimes he will have his own agenda for what is taking place, but just as often, if neither of us has anything to really talk about, he will go off and do his own thing. Having to deal with a 'phone' relationship has been interesting. When we are together, companionable silence is perfectly fine for both of us. Being introverts with a phone to connect us has been hard. I find we email quite a lot and only call once in a while. My friend tells me that we 'get a lot of mileage' out of so few words. We pack a lot of meaning into a short space.

I think this is typical of most introverts? We tend to say what we mean and can read between the lines quite well.

I think this can work with ANY man.....
Intelligent conversation.... find a subject near and dear to his heart.
Ask intelligent questions and be a good listener when he chooses to speak.
Rather than try to engage in 'chit chat', I choose to tell him little stories about what is going on with me and my children (all adults now). I have a bit of a wicked sense of humor, so I share that with him. I try to share the things that I KNOW will make him laugh. I like to hear him chuckle, but I LOVE to hear him LAUGH! My ability to make him laugh, time and again is one of the things he loves about me and one of the things that keeps him interested over time instead of bored. 
Hope this helps.


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## Alchemical Romance (Nov 26, 2009)

LeelooDallas said:


> i dont get it, are you saying you want someone to nag you until you give in? that sounds like you're more into the fact of him being into, not necessarily the two of you being into each other..


Well the chase is always better than the catch because...personally from my experiance, i get really bored really fast if the girl gives in easily. I feel like anyone could have done it and she is indifferent to the matter. However I enjoy a good chase.


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## Spooky (Oct 30, 2008)

Alchemical Romance said:


> Well the chase is always better than the catch because...personally from my experiance, i get really bored really fast if the girl gives in easily. I feel like anyone could have done it and she is indifferent to the matter. However I enjoy a good chase.


Maybe she is just vulnerable to you. I wouldn't necessarily assume that a woman is easy, in general, because she didn't make me chase her.


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## Alchemical Romance (Nov 26, 2009)

Spooky said:


> Maybe she is just vulnerable to you. I wouldn't necessarily assume that a woman is easy, in general, because she didn't make me chase her.


I didn't assume every woman is easy if she gave in easily. I just said why I like the chase. There's something in me that likes to fight for my victory.


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## Blue Butterfly (Sep 19, 2009)

Alchemical Romance said:


> I didn't assume every woman is easy if she gave in easily. I just said why I like the chase. There's something in me that likes to fight for my victory.


That is my view too. The chase is what I want. And too I want to know if the man thinks I am worth being chased. I don't want a man if I have to chase him.


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## Spooky (Oct 30, 2008)

Hurting said:


> That is my view too. The chase is what I want. And too I want to know if the man thinks I am worth being chased. I don't want a man if I have to chase him.


Some might view chasing as stalking or at the very least, creepy. If I have to chase a woman, I assume that she's not interested. I prefer direct communication. To me, "the chase" is nothing more than a game.



Hurting said:


> I don't want a man if I have to chase him.


This seems to be a double-standard for a lot of women. They want the security of not being rejected, but expect (or desire) the man to repeatedly make himself vulnerable. A man's heart becomes hardened after a while.


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## Alchemical Romance (Nov 26, 2009)

When I said chase I didn't mean "without her wanting me too", but you know some women do want to know if you're only after a quick fling or after the real deal. So it's normal they wait to see what you mean when you mean it, if you mean it. That is what i called chase, proving and showing who I am, what I want...and if that ain't good enough...well i know to back down when i'm not needed. I didn't mean stalking.


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## Spooky (Oct 30, 2008)

Alchemical Romance said:


> When I said chase I didn't mean "without her wanting me too", but you know some women do want to know if you're only after a quick fling or after the real deal. So it's normal they wait to see what you mean when you mean it, if you mean it. That is what i called chase, proving and showing who I am, what I want...and if that ain't good enough...well i know to back down when i'm not needed. I didn't mean stalking.


When I hear the word "chase" I think of one person pursuing and the other person playing hard to get or waiting for them to make the next move. This to me is not a mutual interest. Take The Notebook for example. In the beginning of the movie, he is chasing her. She outright rejects him more than once and he continues to pursue her. In the movie this might seem romantic, but in reality it comes acrossed as creepy and desperate.


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## gonecrazytoo (Dec 22, 2009)

I have to say, I am with Spooky here.
I don't like the guess work.
If I am interested in someone, I show my interest by way of sparking a friendship.
My love showed his interest and stated his interest.
We both continued to show interest, so at one point we decided not to see others. It was mutual.
Some time later, he stepped outside of his secure zone and told me he loved me. I was a bit shocked to realize that he had come to that realization and was willing to share this with me. The night before we had shared a very sweet time together, and I found myself wishing for more, so for more to be offered immediately without me having said anything at all was like magic. It meant that we both felt the same way. When I reciprocated the love... the rest is history. We have been engaged for about a year and a half. Most likely, had he not had to leave for a job in England, we would be married already. But this is okay.

We have learned to balance some basic trust issues. We have learned just exactly how loyal the other person is! I wouldn't want to do this distance thing ever again. But it has worked out okay.

I think it all has to be mutual. I don't like to play games either.
If I am not interested, I say, 'no thanks'.
And if he is not interested, I prefer a 'no thanks'.

My love and I are both sensitive to rejection. Better not to drag things out. Better just to know how things are going from moment to moment.


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## wisdom (Dec 31, 2008)

Personally, I think the man should chase the woman. She has to be worth chasing, though. She ought to give him signs that she does or does not want him to chase her, also. For any man, the chase can't be indefinite. For a man who is INFP or INFJ, the woman probably needs to play gentle. If not and for example she repeatedly fails to respond to emails or phone calls or insists on dealing with other guys at the same time, things almost definitely will be derailed. I understand why women want to be chased, that it's partly self-protective, but INFPs and INFJs take relationships seriously and so a guy like that who is being asked to chase probably doesn't need to be tested much, since he's unlikely to use a woman for something and might become bitterly avoidant if he often finds women to be game-players.


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## Blue Butterfly (Sep 19, 2009)

wisdom said:


> Personally, I think the man should chase the woman. She has to be worth chasing, though. She ought to give him signs that she does or does not want him to chase her, also. For any man, the chase can't be indefinite. For a man who is INFP or INFJ, the woman probably needs to play gentle. If not and for example she repeatedly fails to respond to emails or phone calls or insists on dealing with other guys at the same time, things almost definitely will be derailed. I understand why women want to be chased, that it's partly self-protective, but INFPs and INFJs take relationships seriously and so a guy like that who is being asked to chase probably doesn't need to be tested much, since he's unlikely to use a woman for something and might become bitterly avoidant if he often finds women to be game-players.



I made that mistake with and INFJ that I was crazy about. When he first ask me out I did not go thinking I was playing hard to get. Then he would never ask me out again. We continued to flirt for years but he would never ask me out again. I ask him several times to let him know I was interested but it was way to late. I wish I had known more about how "NF" men worked back then. I was wanting him to chase me and not give up but he did give up. I guess I was not worth the pursuit to him.


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## Spooky (Oct 30, 2008)

Hurting said:


> I made that mistake with and INFJ that I was crazy about. When he first ask me out I did not go thinking I was playing hard to get. Then he would never ask me out again. We continued to flirt for years but he would never ask me out again. I ask him several times to let him know I was interested but it was way to late. I wish I had known more about how "NF" men worked back then. I was wanting him to chase me and not give up but he did give up.


There may be some men who like to play games, but it seems like the guy you were interested in didn't. If he conveyed interest in you and you rejected him or showed a lack of interest, then he probably took that as a sign to move on. If you later expressed somewhat of an interest in him, then he may have assumed that you are fickle and don't really know what you want. I think if you are waiting for a guy to chase you, then you may be overlooking quality gentlemen who would be faithful to you, or giving them the wrong impression. It's not easy for anyone to put themselves out there to be rejected, especially NF's. Society has put this burden on men's shoulders for the most part. If a guy has the courage to express an interest in a woman and she turns him down, I don't think she should be looking for a second chance. But the good news is, there are plenty of guys out there who do enjoy "the chase" and love playing this game with women, even INFPs apparently. A couple have mentioned so in this thread.



Hurting said:


> I guess I was not worth the pursuit to him.


Don't take it personally. In my opinion, no woman is worth "pursuing." If she's not willing to show her interest or communicate effectively then she's not worth my time.


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## gonecrazytoo (Dec 22, 2009)

> I made that mistake with and INFJ that I was crazy about. When he first ask me out I did not go thinking I was playing hard to get. Then he would never ask me out again. We continued to flirt for years but he would never ask me out again. I ask him several times to let him know I was interested but it was way to late. I wish I had known more about how "NF" men worked back then. I was wanting him to chase me and not give up but he did give up. I guess I was not worth the pursuit to him.


This is not meant to hurt your feelings at all, but you are right, it was not worth the pursuit. My INFJ would have had the exact same reaction. Say yes to the date, understand that the INFJ is going to take things slowly no matter what. From what I can tell, the INFJ enjoys a longer courtship, that IS their way of pursuing their chosen one. They will slowly give you bits and pieces of themselves and watch for your reactions. And, they will pay close attention to what your heart is telling them. Your actions will always speak louder than your words to an INFJ. If you want a 'feeling' man, you have to be willing to learn what attracts them, how to level the playing field and play on their terms. They are not game players, they only play for keeps. It's just how they are. I wouldn't change mine even if I could. He is perfect just the way he is.


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## Robatix (Mar 26, 2009)

Spooky said:


> If he conveyed interest in you and you rejected him or showed a lack of interest, then he probably took that as a sign to move on.


When I knock at a stranger's door and receive no answer, I do not continue knocking louder or more persistently, but instead, excuse myself with grace from the stranger's doorstep. To put it another way, I'll interpret no answer as my answer.


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## gonecrazytoo (Dec 22, 2009)

It is hard balance, isn't it?

Let me say that I was told, right from the very beginning by my love 'I live a mostly introverted lifestyle'. He did not qualify that in any other way. He picked up his clues about me in the way that I described myself and the things I want in life. I think many times it's helpful to simply tell someone what our needs are and take the guess work out. When I meet someone I like, especially someone who seems like they might be good friend material, I clue them in to the way I am. Yes, I am an introvert, but I don't mean to be rude, I simply am not interested in a lot of social stuff or phone calling. I appreciate invitations, but I would rather have an 'open invitation' where I am welcome if I choose, but nobody will be offended if I don't show up. Same with dating, no thanks to a big noise place where I can't hear myself think let alone get to know the person I am with..... and yet, depending on how well I know a person, do I really want to invite them to my home? Where I might be thought of as completely rude if I want them to leave at a certain point? Do I really know this person well enough to go to their home? Even though that leaves me the option to say my good nights when I am ready to go home alone? When I am in 'alone' mode, I don't answer my phone. I don't answer my door. I don't accept social invitations and I mostly likely will not respond to your email. I will read your email. I will listen to your phone message. ( Just in case there is something urgent that I should not ignore ) but other than that, I will mostly disconnect myself from others for periods of time. Usually short periods. 

I can see how this would make it difficult for a man to maintain his interest. I believe that is WHY I have found it easier to stay connected to someone who is as much of an introvert, if not more so, than myself. 

Maybe what I am seeing here is the need for a man to understand that not all women are 'clingy', so please don't stop asking me out simply because I don't need to be overwhelmed with attention to maintain my interest in this 'courtship'? 
Please don't write me off if I turn down a date out of my need to be alone, please understand I am an introvert!?

I have noticed that many times, as introverts, we do not find the need to explain ourselves, even to other introverts. However, there are times when a simple explanation would clear things up quickly. Other introverts will understand right away, though a bit more explanation might be needed to an extravert, because I have noticed that they seem to think introverts need to be 'fixed' LOL Okay, not all extraverts think that, but I have met more than a few that have the opinion, even ones with training in psychology! 

So here is the one I use when I want to be alone, and I do not want to hurt feelings, offend anyone, or make them think I am not interested in them.....

"I am sorry, but I can not go out with you that night (tonight, whatever) as I have already made other plans. Why don't you give me a call next week and we can ....................."

This is the best way I know how.... to give myself a bit of cushion of time and space. It also gives me the time to focus on how I am going to handle this social situation to my advantage. It's not lying, because I DO HAVE OTHER PLANS. They are to go home and stay there and be alone and take care of myself. But I do not have to share that with others, I only have to convey to them what they will understand! 

Hope this helps.


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## Spooky (Oct 30, 2008)

For those of you who haven't seen this movie, here is a prime example of a guy chasing a girl. In real life, if a guy asks a woman out and she says "no" and she is truly, wholeheartedly uninterested, yet he keeps persisting like this, that would be considered a little creepy if not stalkerish.

(Disabled by request: Click the link)


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## shygirl (Jul 31, 2009)

I seem to attract a lot of feelers myself. I can't say really what my first boyfriend was, but I think he's probably a feeler. I don't know what it is, but I am attracted to feelers and guys that society calls "wimpy." I think they are great.


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## InvisibleJim (Jun 30, 2009)

Marriages/relationships are the oldest example of the division of labour, comparitive advantage is optimal when one partner can specialise on the emotive side and the other on the thinky stuff.

The end result would be that both would be forced to do more thinky stuff than they would neccessarily wish to and thus limit their emotions resulting in less emotion and less thinking (and thus growth) when compared to a partnership in which the partners have a unique specialisation.

And since we refered to groups in the question and groups act rationaly with outliers, I think this is actually more accurate than most will think in the first read through.


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## 666 (Dec 29, 2009)

Hurting said:


> That makes sense. But I still would like to date a feeling man at some point in my life. The thinking men are ok but they don't meet my emotional needs.


Get a man who is T nd get a soul friend who is F. ;] You cannot have everything in one person.


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## gonecrazytoo (Dec 22, 2009)

hahaha, but I am going to give it the best try ever with an INFJ-5!!!!!! Best of both worlds, wrapped in one package! Hope he feels the same way with this ISF*-5.

Know your strengths. Know your weaknesses. Never stop striving to improve yourself, and remember..... 'Life's a Dance' (you learn as you go). John Michael Montgomery


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