# Possibly another mistyped INTJ...



## Persephone (Nov 14, 2009)

I've done many questionnaires, and the MBTI itself with my college and always came out INTJ. However, I have certain traits that don't fit the profile and some on this forum, as well as other forums, have called them out, asserting that I am more INFJ or INTP. Here are the traits that don't line up with the INTJ description:

- I have very strong Ti. In fact, often stronger than my Te. My Ni is stronger than Ne, but only by a little

- I can feign my supposedly shadow functions (Ti, Ne, Fe) to gain social acceptance (to appear more gregarious, jovial and off-the-wall) to such an extent I wonder if I'm not naturally such, but recently I've begun to attribute that to my 4w3 tritype



> 4w3s are theatrical, dramatic, and effete. Compared to 4w5s they are generally more ambitious and competitive, and place a greater emphasis on appearing beautiful, desireable, and elite. ...
> 
> They have an amorphous self-image that adapts to others but is in conflict with the core 4 fixation which sees it as "inauthentic". They are less likely than 4w5s to call out others for not being authentic for fear of pointing the finger back at themselves and their many contradictions....
> 
> Still, they wonder if they are fooling themselves. Despite their consistent underlying essence they lead an inconsistent life and wonder if they are being true to themselves. They try to balance selling themselves out in the real world with hanging out amongst the "keeping it real" crowd. They are more likely to go the distance in their career due to their three wing before their fourness causes them to sabotage themselves. In extreme cases 4w3s totally give up on life after finally "making it".


I knew a 4w5 INTJ girl (not sure if that's her core type, but that's her most obvious from what I've seen of her) and while we got along sometimes she constantly called me a grade whore in high school. Needless to say I hated her for that, but inwardly I also knew I was "selling myself out" for grades. The INTJ would get Cs and Ds and she wouldn't care, because she thinks the work is pointless, thus she refuses to do them.

- I have a very weak J, but I am also diagnosed with ADHD, which has a moderating effect on my J. My J is constantly doing battle with my inattentive ADHD which results in a large amount of self-shaming and feelings of inadequacy. If I resolved to read 100 pages of this novel by the end of the day and got sidetracked, I would read 100 pages no matter how late I stay up.

- I have extremely strong feelings which I freely acknowledge, and my 4w3 tritype is very strong, but people around me say I always show a steely resolve to overcome them. An INTP friend said I was very "stoic". "What do you want?" He would ask me. I would say: "It doesn't matter what I want. If my feelings get in a way they must be silenced."

In Enneagram, I am 5w4, 1w9, 4w3 sp/sx. Big Five: RCOEI


----------



## Helios (May 30, 2012)

Could you do Spade's questionnaire with the picture? Or link me to an old one?


----------



## Persephone (Nov 14, 2009)

FacelessBeauty said:


> Could you do Spade's questionnaire with the picture? Or link me to an old one?


This is an alternate questionnaire form you can fill out and post in order to help determine your Cognitive Functions!

*0. Is there anything that may affect the way you answer the questions? For example, a stressful time, mental illness, medications, special life circumstances? Other useful information includes sex, age, and current state of mind.
*
Not that I know of. I normally (during the school year anyway) take stimulant medication such as Adderall, which gives me mood swings, but I've been off Adderall since it's the summer and I don't care how well I do in my summer course.

Age: 19
Sex: Female
Current State of Mind: Bored after Latin reading
Special Circumstances: Inattentive ADHD and Generalized Anxiety Disorder

*1. Click on this link: Flickr: Explore! Look at the random photo for about 30 seconds. Copy and paste it here, and write about your impression of it.
*
Indian people | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

The picture is very dark, with extreme contrast. Against the gloomy background, we can see bright and warm colors assaulting the eyes, as well as blinding white. This could be in a night market, but the framing and angle of this picture makes me feel claustrophobic, as well as the gaze of the old man. I want to flee this place. It feels like a nightmare sequence that reminds me of a bustling metropolis with neon lights that gives me sensory overload, the kind of environment I despise. Only then do I realize what the objects in the picture actually are - bracelets, and such. A tourist place? Perhaps? Either way, it's not a place I want to be.

*2. You are with a group of people in a car, heading to a different town to see your favourite band/artist/musician. Suddenly, the car breaks down for an unknown reason in the middle of nowhere. What are your initial thoughts? What are your outward reactions?
*
If the car is not mine, then someone else responsible for it will call for help. At this point the fact that we're in the middle of nowhere with a dead car is a more worrying matter than my missed concert. Then I'd call 911 to get help OR, if I know how to fix cars, I'd take a look at it first (if we're not in immediate danger). If I can't, then I'd call for help. Whenever there is a problem I like to exhaust my own options before trying to get help because I naturally do not like to deal with people. Whatever it takes to get us out of this situation. If we can still get to the concert, then we would get in during the intermission, but if not, I wouldn't be too upset. But I would try everything in my power to get a refund, even though it's not their problem thus I shouldn't get a refund, because I basically bought a (very expensive- it's a symphony ticket) ticket for nothing.

*3. You somehow make it to the concert. The driver wants to go to the afterparty that was announced (and assure you they won't drink so they can drive back later). How do you feel about this party? What do you do?
*
I would try to reason with them and compel them to skip the party because I hate parties (and I don't believe they wouldn't drink. People are always giving into peer pressure). If I can't convince them and it's my car but somebody's driving it, I would take the car and leave. If it isn't my car I would try to find a way to leave. If it's too expensive (since I'm in another town), I would be the only sober person at the party and drive everyone back. Bottom line: I will go my own way whenever possible.

*4. On the drive back, your friends are talking. A friend makes a claim that clashes with your current beliefs. What is your inward reaction? What do you outwardly say?
*
Depends on what kind of clash. I would first try to find out why our opinions differ. If their opinions are different because they are ignorant or bigoted and can't reason, I would feel contemptuous of them, but decline to argue with them because they are either drunk or has poor reasoning abilities and there's no reason to waste my breath on such trivialities. I only try to debate with those who are reasonable. If their opinions are different because they simply hold a different premise, then I would try to reason with them and make them see my side, by convincing them that my premise is better and more reasonable. The conversation would go like this:

"Wait? Why do you think that? How did you arrive at that conclusion?"
Scenario 1: "Well, you're wrong. I'm not going to bother to explain why."
Scenario 2: "So you're essentially assuming [premise]. But why should you do that? Isn't it easier/better if we take this assumption instead? etc. etc."

*5. What would you do if you actually saw/experienced something that clashes with your previous beliefs, experiences, and habits?
*
Depends on what it is. Normally I would just walk away because what others do is their business, but if it has the potential to harm someone, I _might_ try to get help (never been in this situation before, but I'm prone to mind my own business. I don't like trouble). But in certain cases I will fight until fighting is no longer a practical or smart option, but I will never truly submit to it. To me there is nothing glorious about the struggle. It's just a wrong that must be set right and I will determine how worthwhile the endeavor is. I might value something, but I value other things too, and if in fighting for this thing I undermine my other interests, I stop. If I can't fight in the open, then I fight in the dark. I manipulate, I lie, I cheat, etc. Because if you do wrong to me, in my opinion, and you make it so I can't openly fight you, then I am entitled to deceive you in order to get what is rightfully mine. I used to live in China, where they didn't let me access a number of websites, and suddenly accessing those websites became an obsession of mine (Facebook. Surprising, because I hated Facebook enough that I eventually deleted it). The law be damned.

*6. What are some of your most important values? How did you come about determining them? How can they change?

*Freedom. I support anyone's freedom to do anything as long as they don't violate another's interests, and my social views are ridiculously liberal.

Rationality. In any conflict, the rational person is in the right. For instance, if my friend or family wants me to change something about myself for irrational reasons (ie. You're too _____! I just don't like it!) then I keep doing what I'm doing and if they leave, so be it. Take me or leave me, is my philosophy, as long as my quirks are not legitimately harmful to you.

Love. For someone or something. If you claim to love someone, then love their whole being, and don't leave at the first fault or mistake, unless what he or she does is harmful to your life. And be forgiving, because people can always change. Also, genuinely love what you do, because that's what keeps you going at the end of the day. Harry Frankfurt wrote great essays on why love is essential to a meaningful life. Do not hold fellow men in contempt (Another Dostoyevskian lesson. I fail to do this a lot...)

Competence. I play to win and strive to be great in everything I do. I will never do a certain job unless I can do it well, or unless I have to. Even if I become a janitor because I can't get any other employment, I will strive to be the best goddamn janitor there ever was. Also, I refuse to let machines do everything for me. I must be able to write, do arithmetic in my head, or walk a mile to the grocery store. I hate the way technology is making us into sedentary, gluttonous sleazes.

Idealism: There are ideals you should never, ever compromise.

I prob have more but I'm getting tired. My ideals on the whole don't change, except when an experience, or someone convinces me that one ideal violates a higher ideal I hold, for instance, if contempt for humanity holds me back from leading a meaningful existence.

*7. a) What about your personality most distinguishes you from everyone else? b) If you could change one thing about you personality, what would it be? Why?

*a) I'm intellectually open, and can entertain even the most repulsive ideas that others won't even consider, and I have a knack of seeing both sides of the argument.

b) I would get rid of my ADHD so I can be about twice as productive. It messes me up way too much. 

*8. How do you treat hunches or gut feelings? In what situations are they most often triggered?
*
I follow them. If my hunch tells me an event is going to be terrible, I don't go. Because whenever I override my hunches and go anyway, _I'm always right_. They usually surround an event or an encounter with others.

*9. a) What activities energize you most? b) What activities drain you most? Why?
*
a) Reading, talking one-on-one with an intimate, listening to Classical Music, watching a good movie
b) Going to a big, formalized event such as graduations and weddings, mandatory small talk (esp. to extended families), dealing with kids, doing what other people tell me to do, chores.

If I do anything, I must _want_ to do it. If I don't, it's the biggest torture ever.

*10. What do you repress about your outward behavior or internal thought process when around others? Why?
*
I don't tell them most of my controversial beliefs because I'm in no mood to offend or argue. Because if I do, it almost always necessitates dealing with close-minded people who will get nowhere even if I explain myself a hundred times. Either they'r close minded, or too small minded to understand, either way I don't like doing futile things and I have more important things to do than arguing with them. I also try to "act nice" and say "thank you" and "hello" and "have a nice day". In my ideal world I wouldn't have to say hi to anyone. Again, this is to lower the amount of unwanted dislike I could get (being disliked is not good for my goals), or unwanted interactions because people get pissed off.


----------



## Helios (May 30, 2012)

I saw some nice Ti at work in there. The Te was very much there as well. Your analysis of the picture was very Se because it seemed to focus more on what was there and specific details in the picture. Your explanation of what you would do in the car scenario seemed very Ni+Te because of your anticipation of different events and a solution for each, but that could very well be Ti. And the way you treat your hunches seems very Ni to me because it conveys a firm and resolute conviction about their correctness. Ne users would probably say that they follow hunches to see where they can get with them, Ni users usually go with them because they're similar to actually knowing.

I do not think you're an INTP. INFJ could work, but the feeling function does not seem to be very high in your stack. I think you're most likely an INTJ with signs of strong Ti.


----------



## Persephone (Nov 14, 2009)

FacelessBeauty said:


> Ne users would probably say that they follow hunches to see where they can get with them, Ni users usually go with them because they're similar to actually knowing.


This reminds me of how I usually evaluate theories. The theory is like a key, and my perception a keyhole. If it passes my Ni test (as in, I hear each part of the theory, and every part "clicks" like keys do and turns) then I instinctively accept it. But usually I can only say "seems right to me" without being able to explain, right away, why it is right. Although I will not use "seems right to me" to defend any theory, not least to my INTP (who will at best look at me and smile mockingly), I act as though it is already reasoned and proven, and unless I'm _really_ interested in proving the theory (like, if I need the theory to prove something else, or that theory is integral to my values, etc.), I will not look back on it. That my Ni passes the theory is good enough for most purposes.

If, however, I need to justify my belief, then I go into Ti mode and pick the theory down to its bare bones. Usually I will find out why I thought it was right in the first place in a more logical manner, but sometimes I perceive a contradiction that causes me to abandon it.


----------



## Helios (May 30, 2012)

Persephone said:


> This reminds me of how I usually evaluate theories. The theory is like a key, and my perception a keyhole. If it passes my Ni test (as in, I hear each part of the theory, and every part "clicks" like keys do and turns) then I instinctively accept it. But usually I can only say "seems right to me" without being able to explain, right away, why it is right. Although I will not use "seems right to me" to defend any theory, not least to my INTP (who will at best look at me and smile mockingly), I act as though it is already reasoned and proven, and unless I'm _really_ interested in proving the theory (like, if I need the theory to prove something else, or that theory is integral to my values, etc.), I will not look back on it. That my Ni passes the theory is good enough for most purposes.


I don't know about other INTJ's, but I always try to trace back the reasoning for my Ni hunches. If it matches what's going on in the present moment, I'll use the reasoning I got to support my idea or claim if not, I will try to see if the counter to my proposal is reasonable, if its not I dismiss it. Apparently this is a very Te thing to do.

Do you like building on ideas or dissecting them to possibly reconstruct them into a new one?


----------



## Persephone (Nov 14, 2009)

FacelessBeauty said:


> I don't know about other INTJ's, but I always try to trace back the reasoning for my Ni hunches. If it matches what's going on in the present moment, I'll use the reasoning I got to support my idea or claim if not, I will try to see if the counter to my proposal is reasonable, if its not I dismiss it. Apparently this is a very Te thing to do.
> 
> Do you like building on ideas or dissecting them to possibly reconstruct them into a new one?


Haha. I'm lazier than you, possibly. One of my biggest thought projects when I was young was the abortion issue. I was instinctively in one camp (I don't want to specify. It's irrelevant here), but felt the other camp had ideas that also appealed to my intuition. Because it was so important, I got to the bottom of why I took such and such a side and completely dismantled my intuition that argued for the other side, dismissing the premises my intuition used as unfounded, and came up with a solution that aligned with my core values.

Of course, because I dismantled the whole debate I know what all the premises are, and usually when people disagree with me I can see exactly where my premise (perfectly reasonable if you accept my premises) did not roll over well with them. But usually I can get them to agree that IF they accept my premises then my stance is the only logical conclusion.

My favorite thing to do is still constructing unified theories. I call it my "personal theory of everything", and they are supported by the various sub-theories I believe in. Of course it is still very much incomplete and I can't even really articulate it, though it is such an ambitious undertaking I'm not that worried about my lack of visible progress. I'm convinced that one day, when I have more puzzle pieces in my arsenal it would simply fall together. My first instinct is to synthesize new theories from bare elements, not to dialectically break it down. If I do it, it's because I want to use the pieces for something greater.


----------



## Helios (May 30, 2012)

Persephone said:


> Haha. I'm lazier than you, possibly. One of my biggest thought projects when I was young was the abortion issue. I was instinctively in one camp (I don't want to specify. It's irrelevant here), but felt the other camp had ideas that also appealed to my intuition. Because it was so important, I got to the bottom of why I took such and such a side and completely dismantled my intuition that argued for the other side, dismissing the premises my intuition used as unfounded, and came up with a solution that aligned with my core values.
> 
> Of course, because I dismantled the whole debate I know what all the premises are, and usually when people disagree with me I can see exactly where my premise (perfectly reasonable if you accept my premises) did not roll over well with them. But usually I can get them to agree that IF they accept my premises then my stance is the only logical conclusion.
> 
> My favorite thing to do is still constructing unified theories. I call it my "personal theory of everything", and they are supported by the various sub-theories I believe in. Of course it is still very much incomplete and I can't even really articulate it, though it is such an ambitious undertaking I'm not that worried about my lack of visible progress. I'm convinced that one day, when I have more puzzle pieces in my arsenal it would simply fall together. My first instinct is to synthesize new theories from bare elements, not to dialectically break it down. If I do it, it's because I want to use the pieces for something greater.


I always have to do it, especially when writing an argument or planning out an essay. Plus it curbs by desire to know why it happens and where it comes from. I question and rationalize things too much.
I've never done anything like that. XD
Maybe in college when I actually learn things that are relevant I can learn to process things like that on a much larger scale.


----------



## elenien (Apr 20, 2012)

Persephone said:


> I've done many questionnaires, and the MBTI itself with my college and always came out INTJ. However, I have certain traits that don't fit the profile and some on this forum, as well as other forums, have called them out, asserting that I am more INFJ or INTP. Here are the traits that don't line up with the INTJ description.


I'm beginning to think that we often focus too much on outward expressions with the functions. The combination of different functions can often look like other ones, until you really dig deeply into the thought process going on. That is, the functions are more about thought process and less about external appearance. Because we end up looking like the other functions, we think they apply to us when in fact our thought process is completely different. 

So my question would be... are you really using Ti, or is it another combination that looks like Ti on the surface? I know that I identified with Fe based on surface descriptions I'd read, but when I really got into it and understood it, I could no longer identify.


----------



## Persephone (Nov 14, 2009)

elenien said:


> I'm beginning to think that we often focus too much on outward expressions with the functions. The combination of different functions can often look like other ones, until you really dig deeply into the thought process going on. That is, the functions are more about thought process and less about external appearance. Because we end up looking like the other functions, we think they apply to us when in fact our thought process is completely different.
> 
> So my question would be... are you really using Ti, or is it another combination that looks like Ti on the surface? I know that I identified with Fe based on surface descriptions I'd read, but when I really got into it and understood it, I could no longer identify.


Hm. Let me try to understand what you're saying. I identified with Fe in certain circumstances as well, but sometimes I think my Fe is just a strategy. Supposing my Dom and Aux are Ni and Te. My Ni might say: considering the situation, the tool needed in this operation is demonstrated empathy. It then proceeds to model Fe based on past experiences and observations of real Fe users, and my Te compels me to produce a mimicked Fe. Is that what you're trying to get at?


----------



## elenien (Apr 20, 2012)

Persephone said:


> Hm. Let me try to understand what you're saying. I identified with Fe in certain circumstances as well, but sometimes I think my Fe is just a strategy. Supposing my Dom and Aux are Ni and Te. My Ni might say: considering the situation, the tool needed in this operation is demonstrated empathy. It then proceeds to model Fe based on past experiences and observations of real Fe users, and my Te compels me to produce a mimicked Fe. Is that what you're trying to get at?


Lets see if I can make any sense... 

In my understanding, both Fe and Fi (which INTJs have as a tertiary function) are capable of empathy. Just because you are "considering and warm towards others", etc, doesn't necessarily mean you are using Fe because the motivations and thought processes you are using may be very different.

This is something I wrote elsewhere: "From what I understand, it is something both do and the difference is primarily their end goal. Ultimately, Fe uses it's knowledge to seek "group" harmony based on "shared values" (determined by who is present or the social rules of the area), while Fi tends to be more "individual" focused; Fi being an introverted function that looks at its own internal "world", while Fe is an extroverted function that looks towards the external social system (of the moment)."

Ultimately, I see it as not so much a question of what your doing but why you're doing it.

It seems to me that most of the type/function definitions (and the questions on quizes like the keys2cognition one) don't provide an interpretation of what their statements and questions really mean at a deep enough level. It's very easy to think something applies to you when it actually doesn't, given what they are really talking about.

This isn't to say you don't actually use Fe, just that there is often more to the story than the definitions let on. From some of your statements above, though, I would guess at more developed Fi use... I'm not anywhere near an expert though, so don't quote me 

If you haven't seen it already, this was a very good thread.... 

http://personalitycafe.com/articles/51815-field-extroverted-feeling-outside-perspective.html

but the warning is that it's 37 pages of very lengthy discussions and it doesn't really get into the meat of the thread until pretty far in.


----------

