# INTP, INTJ and incel problem...



## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

Hexigoon said:


> I do often understand their frustrations though, because I rarely date or have sex regardless of my desire to. I don't really want to bother pursuing though unless I think there's like soul mate level connection to be had on top of other things I want. I think the sort of person I want to date is too beyond my grasp. I also have fear of abandonment at this point so that doesn't help. lol


I can relate to having an "ideal" like that in my head, which resulted in a lot of sadness... but then again IME dating can be fun (when I identified the type of person I'd realistically like to and be able to date & changed my view of it) - even if you are just getting to know people in general; I feel like that alone could help alleviate a lot of loneliness

but what I've noticed about these types is they tend to have a disregard for socializing that way (is that lack of Fe then), joined with that self-defeating attitude where the jawlines come in the picture


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## justrainthoughts (Apr 21, 2020)

Joy1704 said:


> Well ... I know that they are not all like that because I have had a few good experiences with some people of these types. I am trying not to generalize. But the fact that I saw the negative rather than the positive aspect much more often, ended up surprising me and made me wonder why this happens... But I think you are right. It depends a lot on how we interpret these interactions. It is a fact that the internet is full of trolls lol (of all types). And that does not mean that a type is bad one, but it is the person who may not be having a good time and needs to find a way to get out of it.


I know you're not trying to generalize, and I know you have good intentions. It's just that deep inside we all have prejudices because part of being in the world is forming an opinion or judgement about it and the people that surround you. I'm just saying that going with this precedent mindset of: "oof, this person is X type, and X types are mean", could in someway change your behavior and put you in a defensive mood, when that's the last thing you want to do when talking to someone on the internet. 

I didn't have many real-life good experiences with either of those types (I would start treating them like friends and they would get annoyed by me idk), so maybe that could be incompatibility, which is a fair point, but I'm still open to know them and see if we click.


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## 8080 (Oct 6, 2020)

> In most of my interactions with INTJs or INTPs on the internet, I realized that they made a BAD use of functions because they corresponded perfectly to the "incel" stereotype (Unless they are the wrong types🤷🏻‍♀️).


Don’t you also make a bad use of “your functions”?

What kind of internet interactions? Internet dating of the female/male kind? Your interactions here? Your observations here? Everything remains in the fog. Very ****.
What incel stereotype?
What is your sample size?












Summer70 said:


> Regarding "S" activities, what I see around me is more an army of people who are asked to treat immaterial materials such as words, numbers, spreadsheets, concepts, strategies, coding, and so on. So, nothing really S.


*Rien Sach, Marian Petre and Helen Sharp: The Use of MBTI in Software Engineering*








Source: 22nd Annual Psychology of Programming Interest Group 2010, 19-22 September 2010, Universidad Carlos III de Madrid

*Personality Dimensions and Temperaments of Engineering Professors and Students – A Survey *

*Conslusions*

Although all personality types contribute towards problem solving one way or the other, Capretz [9] states that software engineering discipline attracts people of all psychological types, even though certain personalities have more representation than others in this field. According to our survey analysis, both the professors and the students tend to be introverts. Similarly, in both the samples the dominant personality type is a combination of Introversion, Sensing, Thinking, and Judging (ISTJ). However, another observation which is evident in the comparative analysis between professors and students of software engineering indicate that ITs (Introverts and Thinking) and IJs (Introverts and Judging) are the dominant temperaments among studied professors, whereas SJs (Sensing and Judging) and ISs (Introverts and Sensing) are the leading temperaments among students.

In closing, software engineering has, and will continue to have, the challenge of engaging the interest, at the same time, of those students whose minds work in a linear fashion (S) and of those whose mind concern themselves with patterns (N). Software engineering programs cannot afford losing types who can do software engineering well – the practical, hands-on linear thinkers (ST types). To retain these students, teaching needs to be very clear, and sequential, with explicit practical applications. This kind of teaching is often seen as too slow by the fast-moving intuitive students, especially those combining extroversion with intuition (EN) types. EN types are often found in top management in the information technology industry. They would be our most innovative and action-oriented colleagues. Teachers can motivate and challenge EN types by giving the future vision or the big picture and by assigning group projects involving integration of complex software systems. (Source)


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## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

DOGSOUP said:


> I can relate to having an "ideal" like that in my head, which resulted in a lot of sadness... but then again IME dating can be fun (when I identified the type of person I'd realistically like to and be able to date & changed my view of it) - even if you are just getting to know people in general; I feel like that alone could help alleviate a lot of loneliness
> 
> but what I've noticed about these types is they tend to have a disregard for socializing that way (is that lack of Fe then), joined with that self-defeating attitude where the jawlines come in the picture


Yeah, it can be fun indeed, I enjoyed my dates with my ex-girlfriend a lot, though I'm scared of getting into dates with new people because I have a tendency to see it as very serious business - like it could radically affect the course of my future and I might need to re-calibrate and alter things. It's just a whole bag of concerns.

And yeah, I'm guessing dates are probably not going to be particularly comfortable for weak Fe users, I guess it can seem more of a means to an end. The jawline thing is pretty funny though, I've never heard girls reject a guy for lacking a square jawline before.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Joy1704 said:


> In most of my interactions with INTJs or INTPs on the internet, I realized that they made a BAD use of functions because they corresponded perfectly to the "incel" stereotype (Unless they are the wrong types🤷🏻‍♀️).
> 
> What I ask is... how do I get a good idea and opinion about these types after I have come across so many horrible behaviors on the Web? (And it's a serious question. Help me with that). Tell me about the positive aspects.


Because the anonymity of the Web frees people to say and do things they are usually too cowardly to do in real life? I would simply recognize that interacting with people online is a "crapshoot," you're going to find a lot of immature assholes amidst the few people who are actually nice, fun, thoughtful, and witty. Separate the jerks from the types?


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

8080 said:


> Don’t you also make a bad use of “your functions”?
> 
> What kind of internet interactions? Internet dating of the female/male kind? Your interactions here? Your observations here? Everything remains in the fog. Very ****.
> What incel stereotype?
> ...


Your posts are always highly educational, @8080 I admire that you seem to ask all the right questions and then provide a variety of answers.


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## Joy1704 (Apr 3, 2021)

8080 said:


> Don’t you also make a bad use of “your functions”?
> 
> What kind of internet interactions? Internet dating of the female/male kind? Your interactions here? Your observations here? Everything remains in the fog. Very ****.
> What incel stereotype?
> What is your sample size?


Maybe you are starting from a very wrong idea about what I said. It is obvious that everyone will one day go through a moment of stress and this will be reflected in the use of functions. But I am talking about a particular experience with these types, who generally had aggressive or extremely disrespectful behavior with me or other people in a website. It is natural that my initial impression of these types was also negative. But I always try to avoid this kind of judgment because I know that a small part may not speak of the whole. And it is for that reason, too, that I asked the question. Read my other answers here.


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## Deuce (Feb 16, 2021)

The incel community is very closed off, there's this whole philosophy about how despair and seeing reality as it is the highest form of enlightenment. It makes it very hard to break through an incel's defense without pretending to be adopting their perspective at first because if you don't, you're getting boxed as someone who hasn't seen the light yet and is deluded so you can make no point at all. Except what they call "seeing reality as it is" is not even that, it started on someone having first devised some pop economic model to try to understand what women want as a sort of collective mind based on their behavior on one unique dating app. I don't know if the hyper-emphasis on having such and such jawline, the right eyebrow and all is even N, it's so ... mind-boggling really.

I get how INTP can be attracted to that given on how inferior Fe both want to read people well and fit into a preconceived behavior while finding it exhausting and hard to do it. So if the person is too socially isolated and exposed to the wrong theories on the internet, it creates a breeding ground.
And yes clearly not all INTP are incel and not all INTP incel remain incel. That's even the contrary, an INTP who is exposed to a real life experience who would contradict the incel theories on "women are like this, the dating market is like that" could be very quick at changing their mind and reconstructing a more open view of the world. Since that's what Ne is for, quick conceptual adaptation. Then that's what could work for you too, so maybe you should try to find INTP and INTJ who are not completely isolated or in dire circumstances and have like a ... fulfilling life in general - less chance those have been exposed to the breeding ground.


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## Deuce (Feb 16, 2021)

oopsie, double post.


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## Ssenptni (Mar 26, 2021)

Should I prove I don't have covid and haven't committed any crimes too? [Sarcastic cuica sounds]


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

Joy1704 said:


> In most of my interactions with INTJs or INTPs on the internet, I realized that they made a BAD use of functions because they corresponded perfectly to the "incel" stereotype (Unless they are the wrong types🤷🏻‍♀️).
> 
> What I ask is... how do I get a good idea and opinion about these types after I have come across so many horrible behaviors on the Web? (And it's a serious question. Help me with that). Tell me about the positive aspects.


Jus coz u think INTJs & Ps are incels doesn't mean all girls dislike them, in fact many girls may dislike INFPs guys more so than INTXs.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

Deuce said:


> The incel community is very closed off, there's this whole philosophy about how despair and seeing reality as it is the highest form of enlightenment. It makes it very hard to break through an incel's defense without pretending to be adopting their perspective at first because if you don't, you're getting boxed as someone who hasn't seen the light yet and is deluded so you can make no point at all. Except what they call "seeing reality as it is" is not even that, it started on someone having first devised some pop economic model to try to understand what women want as a sort of collective mind based on their behavior on one unique dating app. I don't know if the hyper-emphasis on having such and such jawline, the right eyebrow and all is even N, it's so ... mind-boggling really.
> 
> I get how INTP can be attracted to that given on how inferior Fe both want to read people well and fit into a preconceived behavior while finding it exhausting and hard to do it. So if the person is too socially isolated and exposed to the wrong theories on the internet, it creates a breeding ground.
> And yes clearly not all INTP are incel and not all INTP incel remain incel. That's even the contrary, an INTP who is exposed to a real life experience who would contradict the incel theories on "women are like this, the dating market is like that" could be very quick at changing their mind and reconstructing a more open view of the world. Since that's what Ne is for, quick conceptual adaptation. Then that's what could work for you too, so maybe you should try to find INTP and INTJ who are not completely isolated or in dire circumstances and have like a ... fulfilling life in general - less chance those have been exposed to the breeding ground.


Weak Fe is a poor argument against INTP/J's popularity with women as ENTJ and ESTJs are the true weak Fe users so post would of been asking about ES/NTJs if weak Fe is the deciding factor.
The biggest reason why INTP/Js can sometimes be unpopular with women is coz women are generally passive and requires initiation, INTPs DO NOT initiate, it's against their nature and INTJs rather stalk than initiate meaning they never even tried to get the girl in the first place so kinda hard to judge men's success rate with women when they don't even approach women to begin with.


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## Miharu (Apr 1, 2015)

It’s the negativity that jumps out, I think. We notice it much more frequently because we expect people to behave and be good. But online, where we can be anonymous if we chose to be, certain people (regardless of MBTI type) simply choose to be trolls. It could also be that they’re less likely to try to please people... in any case, you can come to them for sound reasoning and advices/solutions, but don’t expect much else so you don’t get disappointed lol. You never really know what you’ll get with strangers in general.

I say feel free to think of online trolls as incels in your head, if you will, but try not to equate them to a specific type. You’ll probably benefit from that.


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## IncaHomey (Sep 21, 2017)

Miharu said:


> It’s the negativity that jumps out, I think. We notice it much more frequently because we expect people to behave and be good. But online, where we can be anonymous if we chose to be, certain people (regardless of MBTI type) simply choose to be trolls. It could also be that they’re less likely to try to please people... in any case, you can come to them for sound reasoning and advices/solutions, but don’t expect much else so you don’t get disappointed lol. You never really know what you’ll get with strangers in general.
> 
> I say feel free to think of online trolls as incels in your head, if you will, but try not to equate them to a specific type. You’ll probably benefit from that.


Yes, I think the inherent belief that people our good takes its toll on us. The internet is a dark place.


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## Deuce (Feb 16, 2021)

ENTJudgement said:


> Weak Fe is a poor argument against INTP/J's popularity with women as ENTJ and ESTJs are the true weak Fe users so post would of been asking about ES/NTJs if weak Fe is the deciding factor.
> The biggest reason why INTP/Js can sometimes be unpopular with women is coz women are generally passive and requires initiation, INTPs DO NOT initiate, it's against their nature and INTJs rather stalk than initiate meaning they never even tried to get the girl in the first place so kinda hard to judge men's success rate with women when they don't even approach women to begin with.


I see your point but I'm not talking about popularity, I'm talking about how prone someone is too overthink the emotional effect he has on others, overthink the subtle signals send in romantic contexts and building such a strong sense of despair around that they embrace a half-hassed and subjectively colored systematic thinking destined to exempt them of the necessity to take action. Because that's what pessimism is, basically : an exoneration for the need of stepping out one's confort zone and to do unconfortable stuff.
And I get it honestly, I've used pessimism and systematic thinking the same way myself to avoid to do Te-related activites, that's understandable.
I also get that having low Fi could have the similar effect, particularly regarding interpreting subtle romantic signals.
Even popularity is not a one size fits all. Supposedly the "chad" archetype that gives incel (I was talking about hardcore inceldom, redpill, blackpill and all if this wasn't clear) so many headaches is some sort of Se ego, an ESTP. Well ok, sure, but say when confronted when a Se-blind INFP woman, it's likely all the Se flamboyance and intense courtship isn't going to get him nowhere. I'm choosing a stereotypical INT* over a stereotypical ESTP any time. The same goes for your argument about women being passive. I think it depends a lot on the woman upbringing and sense of urgency into finding a partner too, especially if the woman wants children, doesn't like living alone or has a strong libido, it can goad her quite a bit.


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## Plusless (Aug 19, 2020)

ENTJudgement said:


> Weak Fe is a poor argument against INTP/J's popularity with women as ENTJ and ESTJs are the true weak Fe users so post would of been asking about ES/NTJs if weak Fe is the deciding factor.
> The biggest reason why INTP/Js can sometimes be unpopular with women is coz women are generally passive and requires initiation, INTPs DO NOT initiate, it's against their nature and INTJs rather stalk than initiate meaning they never even tried to get the girl in the first place so kinda hard to judge men's success rate with women when they don't even approach women to begin with.


Isn`t the 8th function closer to disregard of it? I saw low Fe as being afraid of how others react to me because I don`t understand them, and that often leads to passivity and dullness in conversations. Fi as fourth would be seen as selfish instead?



Deuce said:


> I see your point but I'm not talking about popularity, I'm talking about how prone someone is too overthink the emotional effect he has on others, overthink the subtle signals send in romantic contexts and building such a strong sense of despair around that they embrace a half-hassed and subjectively colored systematic thinking destined to exempt them of the necessity to take action. Because that's what pessimism is, basically : an exoneration for the need of stepping out one's confort zone and to do unconfortable stuff.
> And I get it honestly, I've used pessimism and systematic thinking the same way myself to avoid to do Te-related activites, that's understandable.
> I also get that having low Fi could have the similar effect, particularly regarding interpreting subtle romantic signals.
> Even popularity is not a one size fits all. Supposedly the "chad" archetype that gives incel (I was talking about hardcore inceldom, redpill, blackpill and all if this wasn't clear) so many headaches is some sort of Se ego, an ESTP. Well ok, sure, but say when confronted when a Se-blind INFP woman, it's likely all the Se flamboyance and intense courtship isn't going to get him nowhere. I'm choosing a stereotypical INT* over a stereotypical ESTP any time. The same goes for your argument about women being passive. I think it depends a lot on the woman upbringing and sense of urgency into finding a partner too, especially if the woman wants children, doesn't like living alone or has a strong libido, it can goad her quite a bit.


The people I know that fit this view of isolation are raised in families that don`t teach them social skills, dressing well etc, and instead only teach them how to work. They are stuck in a loop of not being socially competent enough to be included into groups where they could learn more.
1. The people who tolerate their faults and see their strengths as attractive are really rare.
2. They don`t recognize the people who would be good for them since they have bad social skills, and it is made worse by the fact that they aren`t going to be approached.
3. They are easy to exploit for money etc, because they are needy, and don`t recognize the signs of manipulation that well.

I don`t think it is the looks though, but there is no real answer for them either, all options will take a lot of time to work and in the mean time they will face a long period of loneliness.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

Deuce said:


> I see your point but I'm not talking about popularity, I'm talking about how prone someone is too overthink the emotional effect he has on others, overthink the subtle signals send in romantic contexts and building such a strong sense of despair around that they embrace a half-hassed and subjectively colored systematic thinking destined to exempt them of the necessity to take action. Because that's what pessimism is, basically : an exoneration for the need of stepping out one's confort zone and to do unconfortable stuff.
> And I get it honestly, I've used pessimism and systematic thinking the same way myself to avoid to do Te-related activites, that's understandable.
> I also get that having low Fi could have the similar effect, particularly regarding interpreting subtle romantic signals.
> Even popularity is not a one size fits all. Supposedly the "chad" archetype that gives incel (I was talking about hardcore inceldom, redpill, blackpill and all if this wasn't clear) so many headaches is some sort of Se ego, an ESTP. Well ok, sure, but say when confronted when a Se-blind INFP woman, it's likely all the Se flamboyance and intense courtship isn't going to get him nowhere. I'm choosing a stereotypical INT* over a stereotypical ESTP any time. The same goes for your argument about women being passive. I think it depends a lot on the woman upbringing and sense of urgency into finding a partner too, especially if the woman wants children, doesn't like living alone or has a strong libido, it can goad her quite a bit.


I agree with weak Se users being more likely to tolerate less visually appealing people as long as the Se isn't in the "critical parent" shadow function role as that increases the visually appealing requirement instead.

Humans regardless of MBTI were programmed to seek out an attractive offspring for biological reasons thus physical appearance is always going to be genetically important. However, as women have historically always been the cared for and provided for gender, women in generally are biologically more inclined to seek competence from a man to feel "safe and secure" whether it be physically, financially or emotionally where as the man would prioritize the woman's appearance/sexual reasons.

It just so happens that women generally see NT types as "less masculine" than ST types and INT types as the worst of the NT bunch due to not acting upon their thoughts which is seen as "passive", women generally don't like passive men, assertiveness is whats desired. But as we progress in the world and intelligence and the use of intuition is now dominating the social hierarchy in terms of success, we may see a shift towards highly intelligent NT types instead. Think stock traders, CEOs, visionaries like Elon Musk etc...


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

ENTJudgement said:


> Weak Fe is a poor argument against INTP/J's popularity with women as ENTJ and ESTJs are the true weak Fe users so post would of been asking about ES/NTJs if weak Fe is the deciding factor.
> The biggest reason why INTP/Js can sometimes be unpopular with women is coz women are generally passive and requires initiation, INTPs DO NOT initiate, it's against their nature and INTJs rather stalk than initiate meaning they never even tried to get the girl in the first place so kinda hard to judge men's success rate with women when they don't even approach women to begin with.


so type only impacts the way men act, women are all the same regardless of type?


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

DOGSOUP said:


> so type only impacts the way men act, women are all the same regardless of type?


Learn to generalize trends rather than arguing about outliers.


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

ENTJudgement said:


> Learn to generalize trends rather than arguing about outliers.


I can generalize trends just fine, that was not my issue.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

DOGSOUP said:


> I can generalize trends just fine, that was not my issue.


Then what is your issue? We aren't discussing the minority of women coz theres always going to be some who don't fit into the general stereotype as with men and INTs are a small subset of men in the first place, check graph below, as is inceldom. So OP is essentially querying why a small subset of men in a niche category isn't popular with the majority of women. Flip it the other way around and ask why hyper masculine buff women are less successful with the majority of men vs the typical feminine, sweet and supportive traditional woman and I'd tell you the same shit. Biology, culture and history, you go against the trend, you're more likely to get rekt.


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

ENTJudgement said:


> Then what is your issue? We aren't discussing the minority of women coz theres always going to be some who don't fit into the general stereotype as with men and INTs are a small subset of men in the first place, check graph below, as is inceldom. So OP is essentially querying why a small subset of men in a niche category isn't popular with the majority of women. Flip it the other way around and ask why hyper masculine buff women are less successful with the majority of men vs the typical feminine, sweet and supportive traditional woman and I'd tell you the same shit. Biology, culture and history, you go against the trend, you're more likely to get rekt.


but aren't the majority of women ESFP, ESFJ, ISFJ - types that WOULD initiate such contact as they are the opposite of types that wouldn't (I presume). And these "passive" INT-personality types are rare among men but even more rare among women. hence me asking why the type matters for the men but not the women.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

DOGSOUP said:


> but aren't the majority of women ESFP, ESFJ, ISFJ - types that WOULD initiate such contact as they are the opposite of types that wouldn't (I presume). And these "passive" INT-personality types are rare among men but even more rare among women. hence me asking why the type matters for the men but not the women.


Women's biological, cultural and historical difference of being more passive supersedes the MBTI typing in that a ESFP woman out of the 16 types is more likely to initiate vs an INTP woman BUT overall still not likely to initiate vs the majority of men just because of biological, cultural and historical reasons.


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

ENTJudgement said:


> Women's biological, cultural and historical difference of being more passive supersedes the MBTI typing in that a ESFP woman out of the 16 types is more likely to initiate vs an INTP woman BUT overall still not likely to initiate vs the majority of men just because of biological, cultural and historical reasons.


Wow.... it must suck to be heterosexual


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

Joy1704 said:


> In most of my interactions with INTJs or INTPs on the internet, I realized that they made a BAD use of functions because they corresponded perfectly to the "incel" stereotype (Unless they are the wrong types🤷🏻‍♀️).
> 
> What I ask is... how do I get a good idea and opinion about these types after I have come across so many horrible behaviors on the Web? (And it's a serious question. Help me with that). Tell me about the positive aspects.


locate a landscape specialtist to remove the thorny branch from your backside or attempt to communicate with them on their level. The level of prima donna, finger waggling, uppity, see you next tuesday, condescension doesn't spell the best picture of you either.


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## Joy1704 (Apr 3, 2021)

Joy1704 said:


> In most of my interactions with INTJs or INTPs on the internet, I realized that they made a BAD use of functions because they corresponded perfectly to the "incel" stereotype (Unless they are the wrong types🤷🏻‍♀️).
> 
> What I ask is... how do I get a good idea and opinion about these types after I have come across so many horrible behaviors on the Web? (And it's a serious question. Help me with that). Tell me about the positive aspects.


I think this post ended up generating an amount of ideas that simply escaped the central issue. Some people mixed subjects that simply have NOTHING to add based on STEREOTYPES about masculinity and femininity, and the idea of my post was not even that.

If I sounded offensive in any way, I apologize. That was not my intention.


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