# Extraverted Intuition and it's 'future foresight'



## Dedication (Jun 11, 2013)

I've been hanging around with 40 or so Ne users, mainly ENFP's and a couple of INFP's, INTP's and ENTP's. My exposure to the use of Ne has led me to believe that *Ne does not look into the future.* I see it time and time again in the descriptions in Ne that it is 'big picture' thinking and that it 'looks into the future'. But all these Ne users I've met are very present-minded.

As a Ni-dominant I could have a bias towards Ne's future thinking capability's simply because I do it all the time, so let me tell you that I know what it's like to actually think into the future.

The way I see Ne-Si is that *Ne looks at the current reality* and sees other possibility's *in that present moment.* I think that people falsely give credit to Ne being 'future thinking' primeraly duo to the fact that application of this Ne's possibility's are done in the future.

I would even go so far as to say that the ESFP has a better 'future foresight' and understanding of 'cause and effect' than (most) Ne users.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

You are right, Ne does not look into the future. It is Si that does. Socionics describes this better and claims that both Pe functions are static in that they are oriented to the present only, and sees the present as snapshots of reality. It has no ability to project future plans, make predictions and the such, that we would attribute to future foresight.


----------



## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

Yes, they are present orientated, even if MBTI depicts the dominant user of Ne as this mystical idea generating machines of the future.


----------



## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

One thing l hear ESxP types say a lot: ''l wonder how long it took ______ to make/build____.'' Or, ''l wonder what they used to make ___ and ___.''

l don't really think about these things, especially wondering how long something took in the past. So l would seem more present in that way, whereas they can go back and really think about a process and then re-execute it if they wanted to. l'm pretty much blind to the process itself.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

OMG WTF BRO said:


> One thing l hear ESxP types say a lot: ''l wonder how long it took ______ to make/build____.'' Or, ''l wonder what they used to make ___ and ___.''


That's Ni with Te. 



> l don't really think about these things, especially wondering how long something took in the past. So l would seem more present in that way, whereas they can go back and really think about a process and then re-execute it if they wanted to. l'm pretty much blind to the process itself.


The Ne type would explore it with Si, but resulting in personal impressions relating to the concrete world. I remember it took X time for us to do Y when I was A old.


----------



## The Wanderering ______ (Jul 17, 2012)

Wait what about the Ne 7 vs Se 7. I figured Ne 7 would be more future oriented since that is the fixation of 7s in general but are Se 7s future oriented too?


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

The Wanderering ______ said:


> Wait what about the Ne 7 vs Se 7. I figured Ne 7 would be more future oriented since that is the fixation of 7s in general but are Se 7s future oriented too?


In terms of cognition nothing would change. It's just the focus of "wants".


----------



## Pinkieshyrose (Jan 30, 2013)

Me, future foresight? Hmmm, I really don't know. I do notice what might happen sometimes. I guess you could say. I do notice when things seem like there going to happen in shows and in real life. Hmmm maybe. That would need to be tested. Ooh im mystical!


----------



## Renfri (Nov 4, 2013)

Hmm.. right, this is how I understand the difference: it is not about Ne or Si operating in the present or predicting the future, you can use combination of different processes to analyse ideas/ experiences related to the past/present/future. 

I see it more as: 'how' Ne and Si operate. I see Ne as a process that generates all the possible answers to the 'what if?' question and additionally compares the first created answer all the 'analogical' information/knowledge that is available. It decides whether the processes/situations are analogical and if yes - in what terms - this is abstract thinking. 

Si operates with concrete knowledge/information, simply comparing, ordering and retrieving available information, but it doesn't build analogical ideas. 

EXAMPLE:

Purely (concrete) Si process: I remember my way home, so when I see the bridge I remember now I need to turn left, Si helps me not to get lost. 

Purely Ne process: I can draw a map from memory of my way home. 

WARNING: MOST people use both all the time, our types just tell us what comes more naturally and what we prefer to focus on.


----------



## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

Pinkieshyrose said:


> Me, future foresight? Hmmm, I really don't know. I do notice what might happen sometimes. I guess you could say. I do notice when things seem like there going to happen in shows and in real life. Hmmm maybe. That would need to be tested. Ooh im mystical!


That's probably related to inferior Ni, as you can't access to it consciously, but still it can influence you in some way.


----------



## Eleventeenth (Aug 24, 2011)

Ne is absolutely future and big picture oriented. I believe its one of the things all N types have in common. its what helps conversations to flow easier...similar orientation to perception. However...there are 2 things about Ne that are very different than Ni. 1. Ne is broad, Ni is deep (more concentrated, but more narrow). Ne is constantly "looking around the corner" to see what is coming next. It is very flexible and adaptable to new things, or "curveballs" if you will, because it has already seen the curveball as a distinct possibility in the first place. When you see multiple possibilities for tomorrow, its hard to be surprised. Lets just say that Ni has more of deep, concentrated orientation - almost psychic like. All Ne can do is say "well this could play out 7 different ways...i should be prepared for all of them...i'll hedge my bets".

2. Ne sucks at executing its future plans. well , thats to say that Te is an "executor", Ti is not. Maybe thats the distinction you are seeing. i have 40 different plans for tomorrow and next year and 10 years...but when tomorrows variables are presented to me, i may throw them all to the sidr and take an alternate route if its called for. So Ne is more scattered in its approach. Ni is directive (you "know" the answer and nothing will stop you from that course of action), Ne is reactionary...it simply looks at all possibilities, waits to see what happens, then reacts accordingly - i.e. adjusts.


----------



## Eleventeenth (Aug 24, 2011)

To me...having Ne is kinda like walking down a path...and the world keeps throwing obstacles your way and you just keep coming up with innovative ways to avoid them. just react to them and even make the best of them. walking down a road and there is an oil slick...just jump over it. then someone pops out of the bushes and throws lemons at you. youre not surprised...so you catch the lemons and go make some lemon pie...afterall you were getting hungry...so the lemon thrower actually helped you. you resume your walk...a coconut falls and plunks you in the head. great!! water!! a tree falls in front of you. no problem...ill make a fire tonight. it starts to rain...quick, start collecting the water for drinking tomorrow. A wild rhino approaches....great...grab that spear you made from the fallen tree...nature has just blessed you with more food than you could imagine. 

Ne just keeps looking for the next opportunity, keeps adjusting to what unfolds in front of it. like a big obstacle course. but youre always aware of all the possibilities so youre kinda ready when something happens...and if youre not, no biggie, you just innovate...Ne gives you a quick solution on the spot. youre basically just synthesizing whatever the world presents you but foresight is part of it or else you would always be caught off guard


----------



## kitsu (Feb 13, 2013)

Honestly I don't know what to think of Ne anymore. I know how _I_ use it but there's such a split between the NP's I know: those who use it like me and turn every. damn. thing into holistic theory, and those who use it as a spontaneous idea generator designed just to get out of the ordinary. Not to say one is better than the other but they're two different Ne's, (with a grey area for many)

Anyways, either way, I don't think the future is a big part of Ne. I spend more time understanding how something got where it is than understanding how it's going to get from where it is to a future point. To me, by looking at what exists now I can find universal patterns which existed in the past and will reproduce in the future, and only then deduce how things may unfold. I also can't know how to initiate change/make a plan of action (Ni strategizing) if I don't see clearly what needs fixing (it's never as obvious as it seems, we're usually fixing the symptoms and not the cause of present wrongs).

As @_Dedication_ said, it's future oriented in the sense that it sees what needs to change now for the future to be better, not in actually predicting the future (I'm always amazed at how Ni-ers know where the fuck it is they're going)

I'd completely disagree with "not big picture oriented" though.


----------



## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

How in the world do you know they are Ne users? 40 of them? Where is this? Did they take the MBTI? Are you typing them yourself? So many assumptions. I don't agree. Every Ne-dom I know is future-oriented in a positive manner (as opposed to inferior Ne) without fail.

Ne is Se's "opposite", meaning that if someone is Ne-dom, they are almost always incapable of seeing present situations "as they are" like Se.


----------



## Eleventeenth (Aug 24, 2011)

Hurricane said:


> Honestly I don't know what to think of Ne anymore. I know how _I_ use it but there's such a split between the NP's I know: those who use it like me and turn every. damn. thing into holistic theory, and those who use it as a spontaneous idea generator designed just to get out of the ordinary. They're two different Ne's, with a grey area.
> 
> Anyways, either way, I don't think the future is a big part of Ne. I spend more time understanding how something got where it is than understanding how it's going to get from where it is to a future point. To me, by looking at what exists now I can find universal patterns which existed in the past and will reproduce in the future, and only then deduce how things may unfold. I also can't know how to initiate change/make a plan of action (Ni strategizing) if I don't see clearly what needs fixing (it's never as obvious as it seems, we're usually fixing the symptoms and not the cause of present wrongs).
> 
> ...


yeah your description resonates on some levels. I think Ni'ers make up their mind almost subconciously...thats the route they are taking and God help anyone who gets in their way. Whereas Ne is just kind of bouncing along thinking "well lets just wait. lets just see what the world presents and then we'll respond accordingly"...its more observational, just a walk in the park sorta thing.

I always go back to Einstein. All he was attempting to do was "objectively observe how the world works (thats exactly what Ne is)... and then formulate theories based on those observations. thats what inventors do, poets, story tellers, and the like. we're just "reporting our observations". there is no special attachment to achieving or accomplishing anything. its just watch, observe, and learn. more passive than Ni.


----------



## Eleventeenth (Aug 24, 2011)

Spades said:


> How in the world do you know they are Ne users? 40 of them? Where is this? Did they take the MBTI? Are you typing them yourself? So many assumptions. I don't agree. Every Ne-dom I know is future-oriented in a positive manner (as opposed to inferior Ne) without fail.
> 
> Ne is Se's "opposite", meaning that if someone is Ne-dom, they are almost always incapable of seeing present situations "as they are" like Se.


 we see things in the present but we see them in conceptual ways rather than here and now ways. "what does this mean in the grand scheme?" taking everything we observe and throwing it back into our larger theory of life. if theres a dollar on the ground but stopping for it would make me late for the party, then its not a good big picture decision...doesnt fit with my overall outlook. Se'ers stop and pick up the dollar...and then realize there are consequences afterwards...at least it seems that way to me


----------



## ElectricHead (Jun 3, 2011)

I think Ne is very big picture oriented but will agree that it is present focused, as Ne can constantly shift around at any time. We may acknowledge multiple future possibilities but as far as going toward one, Ne all by itself is undecided.


----------



## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

The concept of time doesn't exist when you are using Ne. You turn future and past into present. Ne is capable of thinking about whenever the fuck they want to think about. When they think about the future it feels like the present. When they think about the past it feels like the present. When they think about the present it feels like the present. You can imagine you are in another persons shoes who is right there with you in the present. Or you could imagine you are in the future, changing the rules so it makes sense. Or you could imagine you are in the past, remembering what it was like. Ne users are all over the place. No shit you think they are focused on the present BECAUSE YOU ARE TALKING TO THEM IN THE PRESENT. Like seriously come on now.


----------



## Deftodon (Jul 27, 2013)

Hurricane said:


> Honestly I don't know what to think of Ne anymore. I know how _I_ use it but there's such a split between the NP's I know: those who use it like me and turn every. damn. thing into holistic theory, and those who use it as a spontaneous idea generator designed just to get out of the ordinary. They're two different Ne's, with a grey area.



Could it be the difference between Ne-dom and Ne-aux?


----------



## kitsu (Feb 13, 2013)

Deftodon said:


> Could it be the difference between Ne-dom and Ne-aux?


Yes that's usually where the difference is, but I've met many exceptions, there must be more than just that playing into it, like a natural disposition to be either more reflective or more active (Perhaps withdrawn vs non-withdrawn types in enneagram. For instance I know an ENTP 5 who is obviously extraverted but turned much more to consistent building of understanding than he is to idea spewing for the sake of it like the Ne stereotype, and an INFP 7, rare little breed, who is very much into throwing around a lot of projects, which while obviously full of meaning to him, make him much less into "complex conceptualization" than the usual Ji dom. Just to exemplify.)


----------



## Cellar Door (Jun 3, 2012)

Eleventeenth said:


> Suffice it to say that Pi/Je is a very different animal than Ji/Pe.
> 
> Pi/Je generally want plans, structure, methodologies, measurement. Ji/Pe sees all that as overkill, but cannot deny its effectiveness.
> 
> Ji/Pe generally wants to wing it, thriving on improvisation or "just figure it out when you get there". Pi/Je sees that as careless and ill-prepared but cannot deny that its just more fun that way.


I can't say I really agree with this. I think that S vs. N can has a huge impact in this, more specifically Ne/Si and Ni/Se (and their reversed sensing/intuiting pairs). I've noticed Si types (and Ne) want plans and structure because that's just what you're supposed to do, having a plan is inherently valuable because they increase your probability for success. In my experience Ni types don't think anything is inherently valuable, they think things should be defined by their functional properties and that's it. To an Ni (or Se type) having a plan is only valuable as far as what that plan is functionally doing for you, whether or not a plan exists or not is irrelevant.


----------



## Eleventeenth (Aug 24, 2011)

Cellar Door said:


> I can't say I really agree with this. I think that S vs. N can has a huge impact in this, more specifically Ne/Si and Ni/Se (and their reversed sensing/intuiting pairs). I've noticed Si types (and Ne) want plans and structure because that's just what you're supposed to do, having a plan is inherently valuable because they increase your probability for success. In my experience Ni types don't think anything is inherently valuable, they think things should be defined by their functional properties and that's it. To an Ni (or Se type) having a plan is only valuable as far as what that plan is functionally doing for you, whether or not a plan exists or not is irrelevant.


Ok good point. Let me attempt to rephrase it. Pi/Je "tend" to thrive and feel comfortable in environments where there is "more" structure. Ji/Pe "tends" to thrive or feel comfortable in environments where there is "less" structure.

I asked the ENTJs once if they see structure, rules, and policies in the workplace as both comforting and also something that restrains them or impedes progress. They agreed. For me its the exact opposite. I hate structure...its not comforting at all...its boring and monotonous...and an assault on my natural personality....but it helps me to be productive. Pi/Je finds comfort in it...but it gets in their way. I find no comfort in it...bit i tolerate it because i realize that it keeps me grounded...it tames my errant tendencies...it MAKES me get work done


----------



## Wartime Consigliere (Feb 8, 2011)

Frenetic Tranquility said:


> I'm on board with you here, but not entirely. I don't know if :tactical is really a good term for us ENTP. We react to situations, absolutely, but we do so more strategically not tactically. We don't determine that we should do x if y happens, in a very specifically targetted strategy for that specific situation. I see how this appears tactical, but I think you can see that really it's more like a strategic swiss army knife.
> 
> I think tactical actually applies to the NJs! This is because they have a very broad generalist strategy, and adapt to situations as they come up, in order to best serve that strategy. So they don't have specific mini strats like we do, but rather just try to recognize in a generalist way what might be working towards their end goal, based on what "seems good".
> 
> Both are valuable skills. But since the NJ have the more globalist view, it lends them more to management, as their overall gameplan is more stable and thus amenable to larger groups. The ENTP style can shift and twist and turn so much, it's very difficult for those trying to follow, if not also an Ne type. Thus leads to confusion and chaos, unless the ENTP has also planned for this and filters information and distills it properly (but still tough). Both types are certainly very valuable to an organization.


Intriguing. I'd have generalized Js as more strategic and Ps as more tactical (be that Ne vs Ni or Se vs Si), but maybe what I call tactics you call mini-strategies. I associate the common problem of ENTPs having trouble deciding a career as an overabundance of career tactics and lack of strategy for example.

As you see it, what's the difference(s) between tactics and mini-strats?


----------



## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

When trying to understand Ne or Ni users, take the concept of time out of the equation and then try to understand them. It's paints a much more accurate picture of what's really going on in how the Intuitives process. Honestly not just the Intuitive but all the cognitive functions are best understood without the concept of time put into the equation.


----------



## PaladinX (Feb 20, 2013)

Shadow Logic said:


> When trying to understand Ne or Ni users, take the concept of time out of the equation and then try to understand them. It's paints a much more accurate picture of what's really going on in how the Intuitives process. Honestly not just the Intuitive but all the cognitive functions are best understood without the concept of time put into the equation.


In what way does it paint a more accurate picture of Intuition by removing the concept of time?

According to Jung:



> Sensation (i.e. sense perception) tells us that something exists; thinking tells you what it is; feeling tells you whether it is agreeable or not; and *intuition tells you whence it comes and where it is going*."


I think the temporal component is an essential one. The senses cannot tell you what is to come or what has come to past beyond its own experience. That's where intuition kicks in, perception wise. Otherwise judgment can be used to deduce this.


----------



## electricky (Feb 18, 2011)

Spades said:


> How in the world do you know they are Ne users? 40 of them? Where is this? Did they take the MBTI? Are you typing them yourself? So many assumptions. I don't agree. Every Ne-dom I know is future-oriented in a positive manner (as opposed to inferior Ne) without fail.
> 
> Ne is Se's "opposite", meaning that if someone is Ne-dom, they are almost always incapable of seeing present situations "as they are" like Se.


There is a difference between being _future-oriented_ and _having future foresight_, it's a very critical distinction to make in understanding Ne. 

I understand though, even/especially reading the original Jungian description, how it could be interpreted as the function that sees the future. I don't think it's to be taken that literally though. It is much more of an orientation than a determiner of anything.


----------



## ENTPreneur (Dec 13, 2009)

ENTPs (Ne-doms) are supposed to be 2nd best at seeing the world-as-really-is, only bested by ENFPs. Seeing what is going on is crucial to deducing what is coming next.

Getting into "the zone" is another matter.... Feeling at home and able, thriving in the current moment and dynamic change is more Se.

Also, the thread is about Ne-strong users "seeing into the future", questions asked by an Ni-type. Time aspect is then of importance. Of course we get into the gneral function difference of the types here as well, but I for example took the "time stance" since it was asked for. 

If we are to discuss any kind of behavior or function of "types" then we cannot really pick just a cogn. function as it makes no person by itself.


----------



## ENTPreneur (Dec 13, 2009)

Frenetic Tranquility said:


> I'm on board with you here, but not entirely. I don't know if :tactical is really a good term for us ENTP. We react to situations, absolutely, but we do so more strategically not tactically. We don't determine that we should do x if y happens, in a very specifically targetted strategy for that specific situation. I see how this appears tactical, but I think you can see that really it's more like a strategic swiss army knife.
> 
> I think tactical actually applies to the NJs! This is because they have a very broad generalist strategy, and adapt to situations as they come up, in order to best serve that strategy. So they don't have specific mini strats like we do, but rather just try to recognize in a generalist way what might be working towards their end goal, based on what "seems good".
> 
> Both are valuable skills. But since the NJ have the more globalist view, it lends them more to management, as their overall gameplan is more stable and thus amenable to larger groups. The ENTP style can shift and twist and turn so much, it's very difficult for those trying to follow, if not also an Ne type. Thus leads to confusion and chaos, unless the ENTP has also planned for this and filters information and distills it properly (but still tough). Both types are certainly very valuable to an organization.



I actually believe the opposite about taking "open views" and more "closed views" regarding NJs and NPs, as I tried to explain in my gigantuan post earlier. What makes NJs easier to follow is - as you say -their consistent plan. To make this plan they have to reduce possibilities and CHOOSE. An ENTP that allows themselves to weed out and choose can often become confused with ENTJ (common thing to happen when getting older), and become very resourceful indeed (S Jobs?). 

Then you must really hope that NJs choose the right plan (and they probably have some contingency alternative too if good).... NPs are at their best when needed to seize up a situation that derailed from the original plan. That is something that NJs -if they DID NOT PLAN FOR THIS SPECIFIC THING -have a much harder time doing. 

Ne + Ni (or NP + NJ) are thus a killer team.


----------



## Frenetic Tranquility (Aug 5, 2011)

ENTPreneur said:


> I actually believe the opposite about taking "open views" and more "closed views" regarding NJs and NPs, as I tried to explain in my gigantuan post earlier. What makes NJs easier to follow is - as you say -their consistent plan. To make this plan they have to reduce possibilities and CHOOSE. An ENTP that allows themselves to weed out and choose can often become confused with ENTJ (common thing to happen when getting older), and become very resourceful indeed (S Jobs?).
> 
> Then you must really hope that NJs choose the right plan (and they probably have some contingency alternative too if good).... NPs are at their best when needed to seize up a situation that derailed from the original plan. That is something that NJs -if they DID NOT PLAN FOR THIS SPECIFIC THING -have a much harder time doing.
> 
> Ne + Ni (or NP + NJ) are thus a killer team.


I don't think that things not going according to plan throws off NJs nearly as much as SJs. In fact no NJ I've ever met minds adversity, they actually accept it as part of their big picture and it's all normal and expected. Since they don't narrow down particulars when it comes to achieving a goal, it's harder for them to get thrown off.....something big needs to happen, that messes everything up irreparably.

I know it's weird to think of someone as both flexible while also goal oriented and convergent thinking, this also runs contrary to many MBTI descriptions, but it's what I have observed first hand from the numerous NTJs I know. It also fits much better conceptually with how the cognitive functions interact.

I just think of NTJs as the birds eye view in their minds. They are zoomed out so far they couldn't care less about a few things here and there going wrong. Can't even notice from such a distance. As long as the situation seems to be trending in the proper direction, it's all good.


----------



## ENTPreneur (Dec 13, 2009)

NJs - due to N - is better at big picture thinking and thus more flexible than SJs, but not nearly as good at this as NPs (in my experience and opinion). Even brain-wise (according to Nardi) the NJs use only the same loop for everything, simplifying stuff and not using many perspectives and views etc. To be a swift and good decision maker, and a doer, you need to make decisions about what to cut away from the calculation. Simplify.... N (Ne and Ni) I believe is model-building that the brain uses to simulate, extrapolate and put into context (using Si) what is going on even if it is not apparent. I just wonder if not the STRATEGY of what to do with this is different, namely see ALL vs SEE FEW in more depth. Ni likely would yield outcomes and insights into very few specific scenarios (psychic ability when right, but can be off by a mile), and Ne would make the user much less likely to be surprised by unfolding events as they already are "theorized" to some extent. When that Theory become more likely to be real one then Ne-user can focus more on that one, INSTANTLY, to get future predictions just as the Ni-user. The Ne-user is more prone to be off-tracked by new data all the time since new possibilities are fed him/her.... Ni simplifies, Ne branches... Both have pros and cons.

One of my problems in life is that I have so much trouble becoming surprised by anything. Be it movies, IRL, or whatever, I just try not to become bored. That is part of my positive outlook. Also, I believe Ns specific need evolution-wise was to predict dangers... I spent many years being afraid of stuff until I learned (Si) that most of it never happened. Then you can focus on being positive....


----------



## ENTPreneur (Dec 13, 2009)

I do believe that Ni sees many routes too, but sort of sorts them and weed out before a few reaches the "surface".I believe Ne does the same but with far less weeding and can cope with that. Difference is depth and that the Ne-process is almost conscious (as conscious as can be since the amount of data is too much to hold in "RAM"). Trouble for Ne is DIFFICULTY to weed out stuff that are unlikely etc due to the fact that unlikely scenarios can be intriguing in their own right! The scenario-creating is like dope. I guess the weeding (using Te) for Ni-users feels equally necessary, thus explaining the disregard of "useless" theories etc.


----------



## HKitty (Oct 11, 2013)

Frenetic Tranquility said:


> I don't think that things not going according to plan throws off NJs nearly as much as SJs. In fact no NJ I've ever met minds adversity, they actually accept it as part of their big picture and it's all normal and expected. Since they don't narrow down particulars when it comes to achieving a goal, it's harder for them to get thrown off.....something big needs to happen, that messes everything up irreparably.
> 
> I know it's weird to think of someone as both flexible while also goal oriented and convergent thinking, this also runs contrary to many MBTI descriptions, but it's what I have observed first hand from the numerous NTJs I know. It also fits much better conceptually with how the cognitive functions interact.
> 
> I just think of NTJs as the birds eye view in their minds. They are zoomed out so far they couldn't care less about a few things here and there going wrong. Can't even notice from such a distance. As long as the situation seems to be trending in the proper direction, it's all good.


Well, I noticed you didn't mention NFJs... hmmm.. I'll say, and I can't speak for all of them, but I'm an INFj, and man can I get in a bad mood when things don't go as I plan/like. Ha ha, do not be _near_ me when this happens.

Now, I don't actually plan a lot, and I prefer a somewhat flexible schedule/lifestyle, but sometimes its 9pm, I'm tired, and I'd rather just take the road I know, like I do most every day, thank you very much. XD (I mention this because I read somewhere that ENxp's crave new experiences almost all the time.)

To sum up: I like spontantety with the confines of a structure. If that makes any sense...


----------



## HKitty (Oct 11, 2013)

@*ENTPreneur*

Lol, I like your name!


----------



## Frenetic Tranquility (Aug 5, 2011)

HKitty said:


> Well, I noticed you didn't mention NFJs... hmmm.. I'll say, and I can't speak for all of them, but I'm an INFj, and man can I get in a bad mood when things don't go as I plan/like. Ha ha, do not be _near_ me when this happens.
> 
> Now, I don't actually plan a lot, and I prefer a somewhat flexible schedule/lifestyle, but sometimes its 9pm, I'm tired, and I'd rather just take the road I know, like I do most every day, thank you very much. XD (I mention this because I read somewhere that ENxp's crave new experiences almost all the time.)
> 
> To sum up: I like spontantety with the confines of a structure. If that makes any sense...


I was discussing specifically NTJs when making some sort of T related plan.

By analogy, you would be less likely to get caught up in petty arguments and would avoid nit picking if you can, so long as you see the relationship with a person in a favorable light, and generally trending in a positive direction. In fact, I believe many NFJs secretly enjoy when their mate has foibles and short comings, screws up about things, so long as IN GENERAL, zoomed to birds eye, the person still seems good and worth having, in their opinion. In the extreme it turns into a sort of martyrdom...that they are willing to put up with so much in the name of a stronger, more perfect relationship and love, with relationship/love being the more important big picture view.

Now this is quite different than NFJ in T matters, which is more analogous to NTJ in F matters, and alot less patience and lots of overidealism and catastrophizing of details.

NTJ also get very cranky pants if not fed/no sleep/too much noise. These are sensory things, not really Ni related, so they strike a different chord in the psyche.


----------



## HKitty (Oct 11, 2013)

Frenetic Tranquility said:


> I was discussing specifically NTJs when making some sort of T related plan.
> 
> By analogy, you would be less likely to get caught up in petty arguments and would avoid nit picking if you can, so long as you see the relationship with a person in a favorable light, and generally trending in a positive direction. In fact, I believe many NFJs secretly enjoy when their mate has foibles and short comings, screws up about things, so long as IN GENERAL, zoomed to birds eye, the person still seems good and worth having, in their opinion. In the extreme it turns into a sort of martyrdom...that they are willing to put up with so much in the name of a stronger, more perfect relationship and love, with relationship/love being the more important big picture view.
> 
> ...


FREAKY, how do you know me so well?? XD

I agree with all of what you just wrote, except this: 
In fact, I believe many NFJs secretly enjoy when their mate has foibles and short comings, screws up about things..

I don't secretly enjoy it. No, I think the less they have, the better. But, also no one's perfect, so how can I expect or require something that NOBODY can achieve.

Also, I would like to add that I also get very "cranky pants" for the same reasons.


----------



## Frenetic Tranquility (Aug 5, 2011)

HKitty said:


> FREAKY, how do you know me so well?? XD
> 
> I agree with all of what you just wrote, except this:
> In fact, I believe many NFJs secretly enjoy when their mate has foibles and short comings, screws up about things..
> ...


When I said secretly....I meant like, secret to you too. 

It's analagous to my INTJ roommate, who is in a wild rollercoaster relationship with an ESFP girl. He says how much he hates drama and that he can't trust her....she acts very sweet generally, but then she will just arbitrarily sleep with some random guy for no reason, then come back crying to him about it. He obviously doesn't like this at all, rants and raves about it, but because she is a solid 9 in the looks department, and she seems so sweet im general, he can't help but want her anyway. But then his vengeful side kicks in, and he will go sleep with a random female to score vindication. And the drama continues on and on. I really think he has a huge unconscious desire for that power struggle type of relationship, even if he claims to hate it. Every relationship he has ever had has been like this.

But this.analogy won't be quite the same because most of his issues revolve around Fi comboed with Se, but some parallels could be drawn.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Eleventeenth said:


> Ok good point. Let me attempt to rephrase it. Pi/Je "tend" to thrive and feel comfortable in environments where there is "more" structure. Ji/Pe "tends" to thrive or feel comfortable in environments where there is "less" structure.
> 
> I asked the ENTJs once if they see structure, rules, and policies in the workplace as both comforting and also something that restrains them or impedes progress. They agreed. For me its the exact opposite. I hate structure...its not comforting at all...its boring and monotonous...and an assault on my natural personality....but it helps me to be productive. Pi/Je finds comfort in it...but it gets in their way. I find no comfort in it...bit i tolerate it because i realize that it keeps me grounded...it tames my errant tendencies...it MAKES me get work done


I don't think this has to do with functions. I don't like too much structure either though I like them to be clear. I can also appreciate good structure but I don't care much for structure. See, what you likely need to understand that structure has nothing to do with the letter J as much as it relates to judging functions. By default all judging doms prefer structure over thought. My thinking and way of living isn't structured. I actually terribly suck at it. Why? Pi dom. 

This is why when discussing functions MBTI letters should be avoided when possible because they honestly refer to different things. 

Also, there are many different forms of structure.


----------



## Frenetic Tranquility (Aug 5, 2011)

A thought not phrased said:


> Intriguing. I'd have generalized Js as more strategic and Ps as more tactical (be that Ne vs Ni or Se vs Si), but maybe what I call tactics you call mini-strategies. I associate the common problem of ENTPs having trouble deciding a career as an overabundance of career tactics and lack of strategy for example.
> 
> As you see it, what's the difference(s) between tactics and mini-strats?


That's exactly the distinction I mean.

I think of tactics as reacting to situations not yet seen, on the fly. So you wouldn't have a pre-formed idea of how to tackle it.

The sort of "tactics" I engage in are uber planned mini-strats for sure. I see a new situation and immediately delve into my memory banks what sort of mini strat might work best to tackle the problem. But if I don't have a strategy in there that seems to fit, I either try to makeshift a new ministrategy out of another mini strat and see if it works, or I just blindly try things to see the outcome. aka "tinker" mode. But at no point would I call it tactical in the same sense as what I see NTJs do as tactics.

My strength lies in how quickly I can narrow into an excellent strategy while engaged in tinker mode, and also seeing how to apply and modify past mini-strats to new situations. Sometimes I apply them in such weird ways you'd never think it would work. This is how the entp come across as inventors.

I wouldn't say I am indecisive about picking a career, but definitely can be about staying in one. I literally need to be able to tinker and mini-strat in my job. It's mandatory to keep me interested.


----------



## HKitty (Oct 11, 2013)

x


----------



## HKitty (Oct 11, 2013)

Frenetic Tranquility said:


> When I said secretly....I meant like, secret to you too.


Ooohhh.. I like where this is going. Go on... I want to be analyzed more. ;D


----------



## I Kant (Jan 19, 2013)

I'm pretty sure people don't see the future. They can try to imagine it, or predict it. But it is... kind of like an educated guess.


----------



## smokeafish (Jun 21, 2014)

Looking into either the past or the future must be introverted in functionality as it is not happening external to oneself, instead it is a hypothetical construct inside your mind. Ni/Si if being oriented towards these goals must then be using subjective interpretations of either the past or the future and both are capable of either in their own distinct ways. 
What Ne does differs. Ne takes data from outside oneself (objective data) and does several things with it. Firstly (though not necessarily in application) it recognizes patterns within the scenario at hand. These patterns then are interpreted in accordance with what is already known and has already been experienced to identify what is being examined. Si must undoubtedly come into play there. Ti also comes into play in determining logical principles to an extraordinary degree of depth from that base input and very quickly all sorts of detail can be determined on the basis of logical principles alone. Ne then creates an extremely accurate picture using subtle nuances.
Ne has the main strength of transcontextual thinking i.e. of linking contexts, it therefore brings to mind other scenarios related (regardless of actual relatedness, could be near impossible to determine the Ne users linking of the scenarios for an outside observer) to the current one and finds novel ways of bringing them together. 
Ne in terms of future sight is best at one question, what if? Ne can examine scenarios and generate possibilities as to the outcome. Si may then become involved in determining what is most likely based on the past or ti might get involved and determine the most logical outcome.
It is probably too limited an interpretation to try and label an individuals abilities at foresight as being the result of any one function in that it will take an amalgamation of functions to produce the end result. It is also (see Dario Nardis neuroscience of personality) almost definitely wrong to suggest that a principally intuitive type is using only extraverted intuition or introverted intuition. What the research and indeed other research actually indicates is that though the introverted/extraverted classifications of the cognitive functions is great as a descriptive tool to try and understand basic differences in preference, people who are primarily thinkers feelers etc. tend to score very highly on usage of both the introverted and extraverted use of their preferred function. This has been suggested as being the result of not qualitatively being able to differentiate the functions clearly enough but in my opinion is actually more likely to be the result of over-categorisation. I.e. Ne is a descriptive term not an actual thing, in actuality there is no Ne nor Ni but simply N, we may use it internally or externally more commonly but we still have both versions which are not separable and the way they are portrayed in type theory is too deterministic. It seems wrong to me to suggest that a person who is Ne dominant actually uses Si more commonly than Ni and the research (however limited it may be (both in number of participants and overall volume)) seems to support this.


----------



## Aelthwyn (Oct 27, 2010)

I'd partly agree but not completely. I certainly don't think about the future all the time or have premonitions all the time. With Ne, I feel like I do a lot of speculating about how things could have come to be the way they are now. And I spend much more time thinking about other possibilities outside of a time-fame, that is simply imagining other possible cultures, landscapes, creatures, etc. for imaginary worlds with 'no' connection to our own. 

However, I do frequently picture how the _near_ future is likely to play out - how someone will react to something depending on how I word it, what the outing for this evening will probably be like (picturing the environment, people, food, temperature, mood, how I will feel, etc.). I think about stuff that could happen later this week, various possibilities of how I hope things will play out, or if I'm in a worrisome mood then visions of the worst possible results. Imagining what things are probably going to be like is definitely something I do, and I certainly have a sense of cause and effect, but it's true that it's not the majority of what my mind dwells on. I don't like facing the future blindly, I like to have a sense of being prepared for most of the likely possibilities in the near future. I don't think too much about the distant future for my personal life though. However I do find it interesting to consider how current trends may unfold in the distant future (like imagining how attitudes, holidays, technology, raising children etc. may be done in a sci-fi/futuristic society), but it's true that I don't think about that nearly as often as I think about non-future related topics. One of the things about Ne I think is that when it imagines the future it sees multiple possibilities but doesn't usually have a strong certainty that one specific thing will happen.


----------



## twistedblade056 (Oct 26, 2014)

Ne makes for some good (morbid?) humor, I feel.


----------



## inthewakeofdawn (Jul 16, 2017)

Hey, I know I'm answering years later, but here's my two cents, for all it's worth. I would say yes, Ne people are future oriented, but in a different way than Ni. I understand what you mean by us being more present oriented people, because yes, socially, we do try to be so, we put a conscious effort into that. But that being said, I think we enjoy our time with friends, precisely because otherwise we’re very much future oriented.
Ne sees everything at once. Everyone’s lives, all their turns, all their possibilities, what people will do, what they will decide, how their relationships will work out or not, and why not (this is coming from an Entp, an Fe possessor, so I can’t vouch for Fi). We can see pretty far ahead, and yes, it will often be in variants, it will be pretty much like spider-webs. But every now and then, a certain thing will happen, a certain event, a certain occurrence that will clearly determine a path for one of those scenarios we have, and then things will become so clear, so obvious, it’s like there’s just one thread left and now you see it precisely and you know exactly what will happen and that’s such an obvious awareness, that it's scary sometimes. So that’s another reason why we don’t particularly talk about it, because we do hope that maybe something else will happen anyway, maybe the future is still open. 
Another reason is Si, our past experiences. While growing up, I’ve often thought of myself as Cassandra of Troy, who was blessed with the gift of prophecy and the curse of not being believed by anyone. Ha ha. My parents never cared or believed any of my “foresight”, so I quickly learned that that’s not really something people will easily understand or wanna hear about. And then throw in some feelings into the mix, and you have someone who will soon tire of being dismissed by people, while only trying to help. 
So that’s Ne’s “future foresight”. Lots of possibilities and all their consequences. And we don’t really talk about it, because Si taught us that most people don’t wanna hear about the consequences of their actions.


----------



## Alice Alipheese (Aug 16, 2019)

I have a knack of out predicting the INTJ i regularly associate with, it suprises her at times how my insight into somethhing is mor right than hers, not ALL the time, and i cant speak forr what she doesnt say though, One of my favorite examples of this is a little more than a year before the trump vs hillary election i had an "inisight" hat trump was going to win, i just remember passively looking at headlines on yahoo or something and i just kinda "knew" this was WAY before hillary damn near lost bernie and trump was still not big in the republican party at all. 

Now this being said, i tend to score with very high Ni on tests. Another example is i had an interest in a woman recently, and as i was thinking about her, i just kinda got that "click" again and i kinda just "felt" that she was about to see someone or something of tat matter, sure enough next time i saw her she was talking with some guy. 

I also have various dream predictions as well. (ive lost my ability to dream for crap for several years now, so its hard to use this one anymore, last time i got a micro insight was 4-5 months ago) There are times where my intj friend says im "connected" top some energy and get these insights. lol. it is a weird thing. 

Oh yeah, 1 more prediction that made me pissed AF i didnt have money at the time, back when the AMD stock bottomed out at i think $1.67 i just had that "insight" that that was the ttime to buy. sure enough it sky rocketed since then, i just remember it was a combiniation of see the stock price and seeing lisa su at some point, i just kinda "felt" it. 

I have so many more exampes i cant think of right now, bleh, my INTJ friend see's them quite a bit though.

These mysteries of conciousness have fascinated me for years 

I actually had this discussion with mmy intj today in regards to the state o the union adress and pelosi acting like a child. (i then said the entire damn goverment is turning in a fucking daycare center, its fucking pathetic) Anyway, I basically said trump isnt going to get impeached and this is a long drawn out strategey by the left to tarnish trump as much as they can leading up to the prediciton and a bunch of other points. 

Uh, sidetracked, anyway, i basicaly told her the way i see it is, and i think this is why i CAN do the predictions i do, is that i DONT CARE about the poliitcal shit it self, im not taking a side, all im doing is predicting it, and i described it something like being a drop of what in the niagra falls, no matter my opinion it doesntm matter, all i care about is whats "going to happen" regardless of political bias, now all this being said this trump prediction WASNT an insight. 

I also tend to be able to predict the qualities of people at times, and see there behacvior and just get an instinct on the ind of person they are, its kinda strange how opften i can be right.

The key to this working though is i must not have bias in the matter, even subconcious, or it influences it to be wrong. tricky AF ill say that much,


----------



## Teen Rose (Aug 4, 2018)

I know myself and i am in future all the time! I wish i am in present like u say! - INFP
Ni users are always for some reason proud about being it's users and underestimate Ne alot! U have no idea what u r missing - the ability to connect all the dots and go to big picture and u can find the whole big world through a single grain and that is Ne!


----------

