# PerC, help me discover myself... :P



## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

eunoia said:


> I would have answered the questions very similarly and I am an INFJ with a developed Ti. The one way I differ is with, "I don't care what people think." I think there's not enough data for me to type you though.. Like I said, I relate to you, but it looks like INTP's relate to you as well..


I was raised by an INFP mother who was very accepting and let us be ourselves but was all poor me about her Fi, INTJ dad who I am very much like but he is much better at research and logistics and design of systems where I am better at knowing peoples motivations and how they feel in depth and being able to explain them (he had very good use of Fi ever since I have been alive. I use his Fi as my base rather than using my mother’s since hers is clouded with depression and anxiety), ENTP sister who always argued and had to be right and who I always got in arguments with because I felt she was not keeping my feelings in mind and listening to me. For a short while I had an IxTP brother who I got in intellectual fights with all the time about the universe and love or just about anything I said. He and my sister forced me to develop T or I was a retarded Ti dom who was forced to figure out how to not seem retarded to others. I loved those arguments with him. We are so excited to see each other now that we are grown. We can talk for hours now mostly agree and learn a bunch of new stuff. One of my first memories of my mother was that she thought very highly of being an intellectual independent woman who was a success in her field. I shared her feelings about her and have held them with me as my own. It has not been until the past maybe 5 years that I have realized my own views and broken out of that. Now that I have become independent, I am allowing myself to see that I like doing house stuff and taking care of others. While my mother does take care of her family, she feels as if it is a thorn. Everything always hurts her back or something when it comes time to actually use Fe, Te or Ni. She uses a ton of Ne but does nothing with it but talk big about all the new cool stuff she read. My mom always thought my perfectionism and sensitivity was cute but once I got old enough to actually want her to listen to me and do it my way because there was a damn good reason for it and could now stand up for myself and explain it, she would give me the eyes that showed to me that she thought I was being controlling and bringing down her parade or roll her eyes and make a whinny sound and action like her back hurts and it does not matter that much. She also uses Ti to lash out in a fight, not Si. I have a schizophrenic aunt. She was in the hospital one year when I was visiting my mother. In the midst of a fight when I was sitting on the floor talking with them explaining my point of view she got down in my face and asked me if I needed to go to the hospital! That is demonic Ti. She was saying “use your brain and connect the dots – I win the fight because you’re crazy.” I use Si to lash out in fights. I can remember nothing if I am randomly talking to someone. I can’t even remember their name most of the time. I am a walking brain fart, but if I get into a serious emotional fight by golly watch out. I will remember details that will kick you on your ass, every last word of some phrase you used ten years ago and the inflection in your voice and the conversation leading up to it.


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## Psychosmurf (Aug 22, 2010)

> I will remember details that will kick you on your ass, every last word of some phrase you used ten years ago and the inflection in your voice and the conversation leading up to it.


lol! Demonic Si? :crazy:



> I use Si to lash out in fights.


Oh. Didn't read this until after I posted. :frustrating:

Sorry to hear about your aunt though...


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

Unicorntopia said:


> I will remember details that will kick you on your ass, every last word of some phrase you used ten years ago and the inflection in your voice and the conversation leading up to it.


It sounds to me like an INFP using Fi and Si in tandem to create very strong memories when being emotionally attacked and withdrawing from extraverting to cope with the situation.


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## vel (May 17, 2010)

Unicorntopia said:


> My mom always thought my perfectionism and sensitivity was cute but once I got old enough to actually want her to listen to me and do it my way because there was a damn good reason for it and could now stand up for myself and explain it, she would give me the eyes that showed to me that she thought I was being controlling and bringing down her parade or roll her eyes and make a whinny sound and action like her back hurts and it does not matter that much.


INFPs and INFJs have each other's dominant function as demonstrative. Demonstrative function gets used as a jest or a joke, sometimes to prove a point. Person cannot take it seriously. So supposedly what happens is that when you meet someone who has your dominant as their demonstrative, they cannot take you seriously. They sort of get a sense that you are putting on a show. Or in case of your mom "being cute". From your description of your mom's use of Fi and your sort of scorn for it, it is sounds like this went both ways (because her dominant is your demonstrative too).



Unicorntopia said:


> She also uses Ti to lash out in a fight, not Si.


You sure it was Ti and not Te? I've had INFPs lash out at me and they would be using Te but it is sort of immature use of it and I frankly find it repulsive a bit. There is no Ti devaluation and analysis there, it is a very direct Te attack.



Unicorntopia said:


> I use Si to lash out in fights. I can remember nothing if I am randomly talking to someone. I can’t even remember their name most of the time. I am a walking brain fart, but if I get into a serious emotional fight by golly watch out. I will remember details that will kick you on your ass, every last word of some phrase you used ten years ago and the inflection in your voice and the conversation leading up to it.


I don't think INTPs have this good memory for people. INFJs though compile impressive mental resumes on everyone they meet who is important to them, and can ruminate about conversations that have happened years ago.


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## eunoia (Nov 19, 2010)

Are you more of a planner? Do you kind of "think out" the future? Or are you more go with the flow with more of a general sense of the future?

As an INFJ I am very concerned with growth and reaching my potential so I plan out my steps accordingly. I'm very goal oriented. Achievement is generally more satisfying than the process.

This being said, because of my perfectionism, I'm also a horrible procrastinator and very indecisive. I love making plans...but don't always follow them haha. And I feel bad for that.

How do you compare?


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

Psychosmurf said:


> lol! Demonic Si? :crazy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol, I guess you never think of Si being demonic since it is your fun/relief function. 



penchant said:


> It sounds to me like an INFP using Fi and Si in tandem to create very strong memories when being emotionally attacked and withdrawing from extraverting to cope with the situation.


Introverts do not with drawl from seriously stressful situations, only slightly stressful situations. I was talking about one of the most horrible fights I have ever had with her. Extroverts withdrawal and introverts extrovert when at their worst stress level. I won’t stop talking and interacting in horrible fights, but I have been learning that I cannot control myself when I am angry, so I have been practicing forcing myself to withdrawal when angry. It is the most difficult thing I have ever had to do. People use their shadow functions in fights like that, not main. 



vel said:


> INFPs and INFJs have each other's dominant function as demonstrative. Demonstrative function gets used as a jest or a joke, sometimes to prove a point. Person cannot take it seriously. So supposedly what happens is that when you meet someone who has your dominant as their demonstrative, they cannot take you seriously. They sort of get a sense that you are putting on a show. Or in case of your mom "being cute". From your description of your mom's use of Fi and your sort of scorn for it, it is sounds like this went both ways (because her dominant is your demonstrative too).


This sounds very sound. 

[/QUOTE]You sure it was Ti and not Te? I've had INFPs lash out at me and they would be using Te but it is sort of immature use of it and I frankly find it repulsive a bit. There is no Ti devaluation and analysis there, it is a very direct Te attack. [/QUOTE]
I guess it could have, but she is an introvert and she always does this kind of stuff when she is really angry. She has never practice self control over it. I think it might still be Ti though because she was not seriously going to take me to the hospital. The reason for saying it was that she knew I would make the logical connection in my head that if “I had to go to the hospital,” “I was crazy and therefore everything I was saying against her was untrue.” She is very smart, but does not introspect seriously or change when needed. She is stuck. 

[/QUOTE]I don't think INTPs have this good memory for people. INFJs though compile impressive mental resumes on everyone they meet who is important to them, and can ruminate about conversations that have happened years ago.[/QUOTE]
That is so me. 


eunoia said:


> Are you more of a planner? Do you kind of "think out" the future? Or are you more go with the flow with more of a general sense of the future?
> 
> As an INFJ I am very concerned with growth and reaching my potential so I plan out my steps accordingly. I'm very goal oriented. Achievement is generally more satisfying than the process.
> 
> ...


I plan a lot and most of the fights I get in are either because I felt that person did not consider my feelings or it is because they messed up my plans. I asked my sister if it was ok if I put a coat rack behind the door in the place we had just signed papers on. After moving in and starting to get settled, she puts and shelf and picture where I had planned to put the coat rack. By the way I had discussed with her how important it was to me and all the reasons I had for it and she agreed. Well, a friend stays the weekend and we all notice how nice the picture looks there. Later that week I go to put up the coat rack and realize I can’t because the picture is there. Stuff like that makes my blood boil. I did not know what to do. Do I move her beautiful picture? Do I ask her what she wants to do about it? Where are we going to put all our coats???!!! I asked her and she did not give me a confident answer. It makes my blood actually start boiling at this point because I don’t have a good option of change of plans to go forward with next. She will not tell me confidently either way whether or not I can take down the pictures or must put the coat rack somewhere else. I don’t want to make her feel bad but end up getting in a really bad fight anyway because I keep asking her what she wants me to do and telling her about how I had the conversation with her clearly before, right away. We had already decided. Now we are in a predicament because she does not think of others when she is acting. She only uses Fe for fun/relief, not regular day to day stuff.


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

Unicorntopia said:


> Introverts do not with drawl from seriously stressful situations, only slightly stressful situations. I was talking about one of the most horrible fights I have ever had with her. Extroverts withdrawal and introverts extrovert when at their worst stress level. I won’t stop talking and interacting in horrible fights, but I have been learning that I cannot control myself when I am angry, so I have been practicing forcing myself to withdrawal when angry. It is the most difficult thing I have ever had to do. People use their shadow functions in fights like that, not main.


Thanks. I generally probably don't account for shadows enough... Hmm...


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

Ok, here’s what I think of my own answers…



Unicorntopia said:


> 1. _When working on a project where do you place your emphasis? the process of putting it together? or the final product? (Do you experiment with your perspectives to create ideas? )_
> The goal is the purpose, plain and simple. So, of course I am going to try and complete the goal.


Ti & J


Unicorntopia said:


> I actually try to plan it all out before hand in my head than start, and then I always run into dilemmas where I have to figure something out or start over because it is not going to complete the exact goal I had in mind to my exact level of perfection.


Ni & J


Unicorntopia said:


> I also don’t want to do too much work. I hate to do work, but love to follow my interests and moods.


 Ti,Ni


Unicorntopia said:


> I love to work if it is directly related in my mind to the interest or feeling I want.


Fe, Ti or Ni depending on the situation


Unicorntopia said:


> I will first try to plan it out all the way to perfection how I am going to put it all together then get bored and annoyed and wing it with the info I have gathered so far, then I go back and forth until it is finished.


J, Ni perfectionism, lack of Te, whims of Ti


Unicorntopia said:


> If I am developing something that will have to be done over and over again at work I will tweak it continuously to be more efficient. Efficient in my terms (minimize or eliminate the need for research, minimize or eliminate data entry, minimize or eliminate the likelihood of stupid duh mistakes without making me have to do more grunt work. I like to be able to look at something, ponder it, and figure out what I am needing to figure out


Ni, Ti, not wanting to Te, Se or Si


Unicorntopia said:


> without having to do anything(no asking people for anything, and having to figure out how to ask them, no looking into files, no research,) but think. That is the ultimate goal.


Ni>Fe>Ti>everything else


Unicorntopia said:


> Thinking is loads of fun. :happy: Projects are not. :sad:


Ti & Ni over Te and Ne


Unicorntopia said:


> but I am very proud of them when I am finished because they accomplish the main goals, when most other people have a problem with doing that.


Ni perfect, Ti big head, Fe people focused


Unicorntopia said:


> I cannot start a project unless I know what the other people want/need.


Fe + Ni perfection


Unicorntopia said:


> If there are too many variables that I have to come up with, I will not do a good job. Also, if there are conflicting demands I will not do a good job.


Ni/Ti and Ni Fe wants it to be perfect for others when I am finished.


Unicorntopia said:


> I have numerous ongoing personal projects in my head. One of the main methods of validating truth for me is to play around and experiment with switching perspectives and they are all interconnected.


Ni with Fe motivation


Unicorntopia said:


> My main stumps in figuring out all of these and acting out a plan to achieve them in totality, is that I cannot pick between each perspective. Every once in awhile I will come to a tentative likely decision by ruling out a the others but usually I do not have enough info to make a definitive answer. Everything is only percentage of likelihood based on what I do know. I much prefer to make decisions based on the consensus of what I think the group being effected will need or want. My main goal in life is to increase value of all and happiness is of value.


Ni/Ti with Fe motivation and finally settling on Fe for Fe’s own sake so I can get out of that stupid Ni/Ti loop



Unicorntopia said:


> 2. _Are you a realist? Are you more of a no nonsense type of person? (I find these people like to call bullshit on everything)_
> I definitely call bullshit on people constantly. I am very blunt and won’t even bother talking to you if you are a bullshitter. I also live in my imagination though. I am constantly dreaming up ways to make everything better. They are not brand new ways, they are tweaking many intertwined “maybes” I have been working on for up to my whole life. They are all intertwined and all ongoing. Nothing is ever completely dropped and nothing is ever given full authority. I am an idealist but know how to make a decision if I have to. I don’t freak out in dangerous situations. I can still think clearly and logically.


 Ni, Fe motivation, Ti backup



Unicorntopia said:


> 3. _Would you say you make decisions quickly? or do you take a while coming to a conclusion, because you hope you're not missing some vital information that will change your mind?_
> Oh my God! I used to be the queen of indecisiveness when I was a kid. Some time in college, I learned how to make a decision firmly on the spot without being wishy washy and regretting it. I am getting better and better at it. roud: but if I think all the way to the root of all my philosophies on all of the factors involved in making the decision, I have to ultimately be a hypocrite or be disappointed that I cannot live up to all my beliefs,


Ni


Unicorntopia said:


> but then again if I spend enough time I can rationalize anything.


Ti with Fe motivation


Unicorntopia said:


> One of the things that made me decisive is that it disgusted me when others were indecisive.


Ni Fe



Unicorntopia said:


> 4. _Do you ever experience nostalgia? For instance being able to completely remember a mood of a past experience/time?_
> Yes, a lot. They are extremely fun to me so I look for them and revel in them when I experience them. I used to love dejavu as a kid and then in high school I started lucid dreaming and until this day I still get dejavu where I can actually remember the dream it came from.


I think I do it a lot but I think I do it less than I think I do. I hold on to it so much because it is so weird and rare and it is also something definite I can remember to support my Ni. As soon as I get these my mind goes on super Ni mode trying to put it all together with everything else and find out why exactly I felt that feeling and what it is trying to tell me to help with my Ni Fe goals. I get way to many possibilities of answers and then remember that Si/Ti don’t really help me with my Ni Fe goals, they just make things complicated and stressful. 



Unicorntopia said:


> 5. _Are you of the rebellious sort? The sort who rebels for no reason other than to rebel against authority?_
> I always have a reason, whether it is an explainable one or a mood one. In the end, I always discover, if I did not know beforehand why it is that I did what I did. I have to constantly be pondering and discussing my own motivations and reasons for things in order to be able to explain them.


 hard core Ni and then Fe motivation to find Se Ti back up. 



Unicorntopia said:


> I also stand up for what I believe in! I don’t care what people think. I might temporarily not stand up for myself if it will accomplish more of what I believe in later, but the total of all the stuff done has to equal to more of good than bad.


 Other people want me to Ti Si Se Fi Te etc. anything other than Ni because they don’t understand it and it makes them uncomfortable, but I Ni Fe anyway even if they do not want to realize it is helping them. 



Unicorntopia said:


> 6. _When watching a film and critiquing it? Do you critique it based on details in the film, for instance on how you thought a certain portion of it was un-realistic (or something along those lines) or based on the idea or point they were trying to get across/how well they got it across? (It can be a combination of both sometimes too) (an example would be for example, critiquing Passion of the Christ, do you think the movies retarded because no one can live as long as he did with that much blood loss, or because of the fundamental errors the movie makes when trying to make its point, and the way it tries to connect the audience to that point?)_
> Both. All. I really get into stuff where I can think about the psychology of the people like Lost, Battlestar Galactica, or The Office. That is where my heart lies. :blushed:


fun with people patterns (Ni Fe) Yay! Throw some Ti nerd in there for a little more fun please. :happy: Oh, yeah and I can also just pleasantly sit back and imagine all that Se instead of actually getting out there and doing it. :blushed:


Unicorntopia said:


> 7. _When debating with others, do you ever get the feeling or state for that matter, that you can see where your opponent is coming from? For instance I have gotten into arguments over things I honestly don't believe (or could care less if it were true), but it all started when someone would tell me about a certain topic and how this certain stance is stupid. Then I would say well, I can see why they'd think that or how it could be possible, then they'd start arguing with me as if I had a stake in it.... Do you feel you do anything like that?_
> Yes, it is much less often that I actually don’t know where they are coming from and will actually get to learn something new. It is difficult to find someone who can teach me anything nowadays. Sometimes I will argue a certain point or way just for fun to see how the person will react. Sometimes I will fake that I don’t know something just to see what they think because many times people will not answer you truthfully (or they don’t even know they know something and therefore answer a different question) and I want to make sure I get their true knowledge about what I actually want to know about them.


Ni knows a whole lot. ENTP & INTP siblings made develop Ti in order to defend myself at a very early age. Also a little Ni Fe people pattern info gaining just for kicks and because it is so natural. 



Unicorntopia said:


> 8. _Do you notice symbols in the world, do you ever try and wrap the symbol back to an idea that you believe?]_
> Yes, all the time. I also create symbols to help me have something relatable to use in figuring out things and remembering them.


 I believe this is the few pieces of Si that shine/slip through Ni with Fe motivation. The ones I create are used to keep stuff in my mind so I can continue to ponder it and sometimes tell someone. I will create a different fictional character made out of whatever I feel for a person’s different moods or ways so I can remember and sort through them. 


Unicorntopia said:


> 9. _Are you hurt by criticisms? Do you get personally offended when people try and criticize you? or are you thick skinned?_
> I have to admit I do get offended, but I try to not too.


maybe part of my Fi shadow or shy Se Fe stuff. 


Unicorntopia said:


> It really depends on my mood and perspective at the time. I can trick myself into not being offended or being offended at will. This sometimes makes it difficult to know my true feelings.


 Ti rationalization helping me to achieve Ni Fe goals – or so I think. This may actually be a detrimental illusion for me though. 


Unicorntopia said:


> 10. _Say for example your learning about cameras in school, would you be more inclined to go home right away and read a whole shit load on cameras so you feel confident in your knowledge of cameras? or would you feel perfectly comfortable when the teacher calls on people to come try it out, to just hop up there and start using it?_
> I am too lazy to go read a whole bunch of shit about something I am not interested in, but at the same time, I would not be completely comfortable just hopping up there. This would be one of those times I would have to force myself to read just a little, enough to be able to pretend I know or be able to justify it if something went wrong.


Maybe Ni Fe is not interested while Si and Te don’t want to work and Ne and Se are crap when it comes to not supporting Ni Fe.



Unicorntopia said:


> 11. _When you are out do you worry about how people will interpret any action you take? (sort of in a seinfeld sort of way, where they over analyze actions people make, trying to find their true motivation) Do you feel a sort of pressure from this?_
> Yes! I am aware of all the possibilities of how people can take what I do and say and then it is hard for me to act freely because I then have to try and determine how that person in particular will most likely react to this or that. I want to communicate one thing and don’t want to communicate a different thing on accident. People usually take me the wrong way or react badly to me if I do not enter with caution.


 People usually react badly to Ni and on top of that I care because of Fe. I also analyze it for Ti fun. 


Unicorntopia said:


> 12. _In a classroom setting do you ever find yourself helping other people out with projects or homework when you see their struggling? Do you do this to make yourself feel more comfortable?_
> I do this out of the kindness of my own heart, not to make myself feel better. If I can help a person when I already know what I am doing and don’t have any pressing matters to take care of I really enjoy teaching people things. It is an extremely fun psychological game to see if you can accomplish the goal and see the happy smile and light go on.


 Fe Se  while Ni Ti run in backround.


Unicorntopia said:


> 13. _Do you find yourself ranting to your friends about how a certain something could have been done way easier? Or how someone went about doing something (anything like a project,work,etc.) was really stupid and you could have done it way better and in a more simple fashion?_
> Yes! Yes yes yes yes yes yes… but I have had to make myself stop because it gets me into trouble, I don’t actually want to go through the effort of making it better, and it makes me angry inside and look down on others. I want to be happy and accepting of others.


Ni/Ti then Fe break out


Unicorntopia said:


> 14. _how does your average day go in general,_
> I can’t get out of bed for like an hour, then I rush off to work a half an hour late, then I do a touch of work and then procrastinate by coming on PerC, then go back and forth until I leave. I actually get all my work done this way because I work much more quickly if I am not doing it constantly and I have made everything so efficient that I barely have anything to do. I go home, maybe run an errand on the way. I rarely go out socially spontaneously, I usually stay at home and clean a little make dinner and entertain myself. I do however go out with friends if a party or occasion is scheduled.


 Ni & staying away from Se


Unicorntopia said:


> 15. _what things do you value the most,_
> Truth. Love. Forgiveness. Excitement. Will power. Awesomeness.
> 
> 16. _what things regularly bug you,_
> ...


Ni/Fe being always analyzed to find Ti backup so I can explain it to others and help them (Fe)



Unicorntopia said:


> 19. _how do you arrive at your decisions,_
> I think.


Ti simple answer


Unicorntopia said:


> If thinking says there is nothing that is better than the other necessarily, than I will go by my mood.


No Ti reason? No Ni Fe reason? Do I get to use Fi for real this time? :happy: Oh, wait no that was Ni Fe, duh. :dry:


Unicorntopia said:


> Sometimes I will pick something because I want it really badly even if it means there will be consequences.


Shadow Fi?


Unicorntopia said:


> I hate to have to stick to rules, made by others or myself, when I don’t want to. I will wing almost everything I do just so that I don’t have to blindly and boringly follow any rules


need to have freedom to follow Ni so aversion to Si and Te.


Unicorntopia said:


> although I have set up a ridiculous amount of rules for myself and others that I follow most of the time. I eat extremely healthy because I will be very unhappy if I do not. I will be sick all the time with a plethora of chronic conditions.


Ni Fe gets sick from others because of the empathy/wanting to know their perspective completely. Ni perfection can also figure out what to do to make me better. I think I might actually use Fi here to determine my own bodies natural reaction. 



Unicorntopia said:


> 20. _what factors are you most likely to pay attention to when deciding on things. _
> Does it make sense?


Ti


Unicorntopia said:


> Do I feel like it?


Fi


Unicorntopia said:


> (ex. I want to be warm so I will were pants but what color pants best portray what mood I am in?)


Fe wins. 


Unicorntopia said:


> 21. _Any peculiarities that you have noticed about your personality? _
> I am very peculiar in general.


Ni all the way baby!


Unicorntopia said:


> I like to make lots of sounds. I like to sing, I like to say certain words in the same funny way every time, I like to exclaim my excitement during movies or shows or anything with a squeal or wheeee other strange sound of sorts depending on what edge it has, I meow to my cat, I growel when I am angry, the list goes on.


 I am really not sure it could be Ni Fe or immature Fi


Unicorntopia said:


> When I am around strangers I only do this if I am bored and it is not something important like an interview. I do this about medium strength around my closest people. They enjoy it a lot except if they are trying to sleep or have a headache or something. I do it at highest strength when I am by myself.


introvert using Fe 


Unicorntopia said:


> 22. _Anything that makes you stand out from other people that you know? _
> I don’t dish out fake smiles constantly. If I do smile it is for a purpose, either they made me happy or I want to make them feel happy. It is rarely for a scheme, and never because of social norms. I dress to my preference which incorporates many different styles into my own. I am part just about every style because they are all so beautiful in their own way I cannot pick just one. I also don’t like to be categorized and stereotyped so I try to mix it up and keep people on their toes.


Fe is not paired with Si like it is in an ESFJ. Ni is just plain weird. This I think is hard evidence against Fi because I can’t choose my own style. Ni Fe wants to incorporate all of them. Se can be its self in picking out the clothes once I got confident enough to. I don’t like it when people put me in a box and assume anything because I need to be nimble and be able to be anything to anyone depending on what Ni Fe job I have to do at the time. 



Unicorntopia said:


> 23. _What do you yourself think are your strengths and weaknesses?_
> I hate this section. Anything can be a strength or weakness depending on the situation and the will. Give me a question I can answer honestly.


 Ni sees all perspectives. Ti says it would be impossible to answer honestly.


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

^^^ Not much to disagree with there. By your own description you sure fit INFJ. :happy:


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

penchant said:


> ^^^ Not much to disagree with there. By your own description you sure fit INFJ. :happy:


Yeah, I think I am going to stick with INFJ. Nobleheart told me I sounded like an ENFJ so I wanted to make sure I was not something other than INFJ. 

Thanks everyone for helping. :happy:


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

I really don't want to be one of these people they a talk about in this article -- introspective to a fault: Why Are There So Many Fours? Authenticity, Selfhood and the Crisis of Modernity 

I really want to know the truth. Just thought maybe if someone had a strong opinion that I was doing this and was another type than this thread would be a good place for them to let me know without making me feel bad. So it will always be open for discussion.


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## Psychosmurf (Aug 22, 2010)

I'm gonna share some wiki-wisdom on here. What I've learned lately is that there is no such thing as a "true self", i.e. the dichotomous construct of "true self" and "social self" is invalid. Rather, the illusion arises from the cognitive biases we all have when thinking about others, relationships, and ourselves. So here it is from Wikipedia:



> Social cognitive theories
> 
> In cognitive theory, behavior is explained as guided by cognitions (e.g. expectations) about the world, especially those about other people. Cognitive theories are theories of personality that emphasize cognitive processes such as thinking and judging.
> 
> ...


The best way to learn about yourself is to 

1. Study up on some cognitive psychology.

2. Form models of your own mind and test them using this ----> http://yudkowsky.net/rational/bayes


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

Psychosmurf said:


> I'm gonna share some wiki-wisdom on here. What I've learned lately is that there is no such thing as a "true self", i.e. the dichotomous construct of "true self" and "social self" is invalid. Rather, the illusion arises from the cognitive biases we all have when thinking about others, relationships, and ourselves. So here it is from Wikipedia:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you kidding me psychosmurf!

No way am I going to put that much effort into this. I don't want to spend a million years sorting all that out. Maybe an INTP would... I am not that patient and I it is not that easy for me to think that slowly and seperately through time. What I gained from skimming that was that it is extremely annoying when people do not present the info in a proportionate manner and that I already knew that those are common mistakes. You have to sort it out yourself and not assume the other person knows what they are talking about or took the time to try and present it in a manner that would be easy for you to think through. It looked like they were just talking about statistics and statistics is like duh for me like economics is but with a bunch of symbols and equations to memorize. That is also the reason I did not pick Finance over accounting. Finance is duh stuff with a bunch of symbols and equations to memorize as well. I made straight As in Finance and Cs in accounting but knew I was bad at memorization and would forget them as soon as my mind thought of something else. Accounting is one simple equation, intuitive economic principals (common sense), a little terminalogy and from there you can do anything just by flip flopping it in your mind through debits and credits until it is fitted into the places you determined they should be by common sense. I will tell you the main thing in accounting is word problems. You have addition, subraction, multiplication, division, and word problems. You have to be able to find the relevent info and then do some of the above math in the proper order to find the correct answer. It sounds like baye's theorem was saying do what I just did in the last statement, but as far as personality typing goes it maybe sounds like you were trying to say something along the lines of, no one can ever figure it out for real because it is all subjective to what was in Carl Jung's mind and we will never be able to be sure of what exactly was in Carl Jung's mind because we can't physically go in and test what was in his mind to what is in another's mind and that this is all just what a few people have priorly agreed on and therefore what I think is just as relevent as what they think.

Or, you could just be trying to say that if I try really hard, I can ceate my own alternate universe and live in it. :happy:

What is your point? What are you trying to say? Put it in laymens terms for me please.

Oh yeah, and Finance is evil where accounting good. > Finance tries to inflate value for short term optomism and money now at the cost of bubbles later. Accounting is like the police of Finance people and entreprenures. roud:


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## Psychosmurf (Aug 22, 2010)

Lol. This is what happens when Ti comes out in full force. roud:

Let me start with an explanation of Bayes' theorem that I believe is really simple. 

Suppose, one day, that you notice that the grass on your lawn is wet. You start to wonder, why is the grass on my lawn wet? In a few moments you invent many possible explanations of the event. You think that some of the possible reasons for why the grass is wet are A) it rained last night, B) the sprinkler system was on, or C) Psychosmurf, being the lunatic that he is, showed up last night and tried to drown all the grass so that he could, once again, win the neighborhood "Best Lawn Competition". But the question keeps nagging at you. Which one of these reasons could it really be? So you decide to use a simple procedure that would tell you which of the possible explanations is the best one. This is where Bayes' theorem comes in.

The first thing to do is to figure out all of the priors (prior probabilities). One way you could do that is to look up some statistical data from respected sources, or you could do some counting and figure out the priors yourself. Or, if you really can't find anything, you can either, guess or assign a distribution of complete ignorance, i.e., give each possibility an equal probability. Let's do just that. So here are our probability assignments:

p(A) "It rained last night" = 0.33

p(B) "Sprinkler system was on" = 0.33

p(C) "Smurf did it" = 0.33

Now, we have to figure out the conditional probabilities. What a conditional probability is, is the probability that the grass is wet p(X) (X means, "the grass is wet") whenever it _is_ the case that one of the possible explanations really did happen. So it answers the question, "What is the probability that the grass will be wet whenever A (or B, or C) occurs?". You start doing some thinking, you might even look up some data, and you start assigning the conditional probabilities. And here they are:

p(X|A) = 0.60, Whenever it rains around here, it rains. So the grass will probably not dry out by morning.

p(X|B) = 0.30, The sprinkler system only uses a small amount of water, so the grass usually dries out by morning.

p(X|C) = 0.99, Psychosmurf is nuts. So whenever he does try to destroy someone's lawn he uses a fire hydrant, and the grass will most likely not dry out by morning.

(Note that the conditional probabilities do not have to add up to 1.)

Now, we are ready to use Bayes' theorem. It goes as follows

p(A|X) = ( p(X|A) p(A) ) / ( p(X|A) p(A) + p(X|~A) p(~A) ).

The ~A means all of the things that could have happened except A together. In this case, the ~A's represent the B and C possibilities.

So we plug all the numbers in, and we get

p(A|X) = ( ( p(X|A) p(A) ) / ( p(X|A) p(A) + p(X|B) p(B) + p(X|C)p(C)) = (0.60*0.33)/(0.60*0.33 + 0.30*0.33 + 0.99*0.33) = 0.32

p(B|X) = ( ( p(X|B) p(B) ) / ( p(X|B) p(B) + p(X|A) p(A) + p(X|C)p(C)) = (0.30*0.33)/(0.30*0.33 + 0.60*0.33 + 0.99*0.33) = 0.16

p(C|X) = ( ( p(X|C) p(C) ) / ( p(X|C) p(C) + p(X|A) p(A) + p(X|B)p(B)) = (0.99*0.33)/(0.99*0.33 + 0.60*0.33 + 0.30*0.33) = 0.52

So now we have what are called the posterior probabilities. Those are the probability that the possible explanation is correct given that X ( the grass being wet) did occur.

The highest posterior probability is the one for the C explanation. This indicates that it was most likely Psychosmurf who was the cause of the wet grass. (Please don't report me to the committee :sad

This is how Bayes' theorem allows us to choose the best explanation among many alternatives.

What I was saying is that we should build a few models of our personalities A, B, C, and so on and compare them against observed behaviors, X. Most of that work has been done by psychologists already, so that's why I recommended studying psychology. :happy:

The reason that I think this is useful is because it gives you an objective picture of yourself, free of all of the inherent biases that our minds are riddled with. Currently, I'm using what I learn in psychology to eliminate these kinds of biases in my thinking as much as possible. And it's working pretty well. roud:


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

*Baye's Theorem*

@Psychosmurf

I condensed it for you and me, of course.

effect = grass is wet; cause = what we are looking for

1. p = Prior possibilities - what has happened in the past -- How respectable is the source? How relevant are the possibilities it provides to this particular situation? Are you sure they have provided all the information you need in order to make these determinations? Were they really psychopaths??? etc.
2. a, b, c = give p their possibilities of happening -- in this case? at this time? in my back yard? on a night like last night? when the moon has that certain glow and the daffodils are in full bloom? When the world has that particular dark mucky look and sharp static like feeling that I have found correlates loosely with ill will coming my way? etc.
3. x = conditional probability = How likely is it that the prior possibility actually caused the effect 
4. ~a = b&c = compare each p to all other possibilities

Answer: Probable possibilities based on probable possibilities that we could think of at the time that we picked based on a severed mind (separated into conscious and subconscious) that does not know whether or not we were picking the priors based on subconscious motives or not. 

Question? When does it take into account the possibility that there are infinite possibilities? 

Anyway, it is a respectable method. It actually comes naturally to me and I do it in my head constantly for everything. I most definitely think in likelihoods. Whenever anyone comes to me with a problem or question I coach them through this process unofficially. I never knew someone had actually made an equation for it!


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## Psychosmurf (Aug 22, 2010)

Pretty much right. But this can be confusing. I should provide an interpretation of all the symbols though, just in case. :bored:

X - The event we're trying to explain (effects)

A, B, C, etc. - The possible explanations of X (causes)

p(A), p(X), etc. - The probability with which an event occurs. 

p( X ^ A) - The probability with which the events X and A occur together.

p(X|A) - the probability that X happened _given that_ A did. 

p(~A) - the sum of all of the possible alternative explanations' probabilities.

p(X|~A) - the probability with which X occurs _given that_ A _does not_.

p(A|X) - the probability that A occurs _given that_ X did. So, in effect, how likely it is that the explanation A is the right one.

And that's pretty much it. roud:



> Question? When does it take into account the possibility that there are infinite possibilities?


The theorem can be extended to include infinitely many possible alternatives, and it will still tend towards the right one. 
However, you're gonna have to take infinite sums into account in the denominator. 



> Anyway, it is a respectable method. It actually comes naturally to me and I do it in my head constantly for everything. I most definitely think in likelihoods. Whenever anyone comes to me with a problem or question I coach them through this process unofficially. I never knew someone had actually made an equation for it!


Cool. Before I learned about this, I would use it "naturally", but only rarely and only when I really pushed my mind to its limits. :crazy: But I can do it easily now. :wink:


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

Psychosmurf said:


> Pretty much right. But this can be confusing. I should provide an interpretation of all the symbols though, just in case. :bored:
> 
> X - The event we're trying to explain (effects)
> 
> ...


That was a MUCH easier way of explaining it! That was much easier to understand. Thank you. I am going to save that for future use. :wink:


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

Psychosmurf said:


> I'm gonna share some wiki-wisdom on here. What I've learned lately is that there is no such thing as a "true self", i.e. the dichotomous construct of "true self" and "social self" is invalid. Rather, the illusion arises from the cognitive biases we all have when thinking about others, relationships, and ourselves.


Give us some slack... :laughing: Talking about a true self can't really be that much of a problem as a way of differentiating it from perceived self, can it? 



Unicorntopia said:


> Yeah, I think I am going to stick with INFJ. Nobleheart told me I sounded like an ENFJ so I wanted to make sure I was not something other than INFJ.


And then Nobleheart might not really be sure about the ENFJ/INFJ thing himself... :wink:


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## Psychosmurf (Aug 22, 2010)

Lol. Three posts in a row that ended with a :wink:



> Give us some slack... Talking about a true self can't really be that much of a problem as a way of differentiating it from perceived self, can it?


A few things that will help you answer that question yourself:

Most of these biases are labeled as attributional biases.

* Actor–observer bias – the tendency for explanations of other individuals' behaviors to overemphasize the influence of their personality and underemphasize the influence of their situation (see also Fundamental attribution error). However, this is coupled with the opposite tendency for the self in that explanations for our own behaviors overemphasize the influence of our situation and underemphasize the influence of our own personality.
* Dunning–Kruger effect – a twofold bias. On one hand the lack of metacognitive ability deludes people, who overrate their capabilities. On the other hand, skilled people underrate their abilities, as they assume the others have a similar understanding.[citation needed]
* Egocentric bias – occurs when people claim more responsibility for themselves for the results of a joint action than an outside observer would.
* Forer effect (aka Barnum effect) – the tendency to give high accuracy ratings to descriptions of their personality that supposedly are tailored specifically for them, but are in fact vague and general enough to apply to a wide range of people. For example, horoscopes.
* False consensus effect – the tendency for people to overestimate the degree to which others agree with them.[36]
* Fundamental attribution error – the tendency for people to over-emphasize personality-based explanations for behaviors observed in others while under-emphasizing the role and power of situational influences on the same behavior (see also actor-observer bias, group attribution error, positivity effect, and negativity effect).[37]
* Halo effect – the tendency for a person's positive or negative traits to "spill over" from one area of their personality to another in others' perceptions of them (see also physical attractiveness stereotype).[38]
* Herd instinct – common tendency to adopt the opinions and follow the behaviors of the majority to feel safer and to avoid conflict.
* Illusion of asymmetric insight – people perceive their knowledge of their peers to surpass their peers' knowledge of them.[39]
* Illusion of transparency – people overestimate others' ability to know them, and they also overestimate their ability to know others.
* Illusory superiority – overestimating one's desirable qualities, and underestimating undesirable qualities, relative to other people. (Also known as "Lake Wobegon effect," "better-than-average effect," or "superiority bias").[40]
* Ingroup bias – the tendency for people to give preferential treatment to others they perceive to be members of their own groups.
* Just-world phenomenon – the tendency for people to believe that the world is just and therefore people "get what they deserve."
* Moral luck – the tendency for people to ascribe greater or lesser moral standing based on the outcome of an event rather than the intention
* Outgroup homogeneity bias – individuals see members of their own group as being relatively more varied than members of other groups.[41]
* Projection bias – the tendency to unconsciously assume that others (or one's future selves) share one's current emotional states, thoughts and values.[42]
* Self-serving bias – the tendency to claim more responsibility for successes than failures. It may also manifest itself as a tendency for people to evaluate ambiguous information in a way beneficial to their interests (see also group-serving bias).[43]
* System justification – the tendency to defend and bolster the status quo. Existing social, economic, and political arrangements tend to be preferred, and alternatives disparaged sometimes even at the expense of individual and collective self-interest. (See also status quo bias.)
* Trait ascription bias – the tendency for people to view themselves as relatively variable in terms of personality, behavior and mood while viewing others as much more predictable.
* Ultimate attribution error – similar to the fundamental attribution error, in this error a person is likely to make an internal attribution to an entire group instead of the individuals within the group.


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

^^^= perceived self as opposed to true self, right? I'm not claiming objectivity, just saying we have to agree there is an object to study at all, if anything that follows is going to make sense.


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

Psychosmurf said:


> Lol. Three posts in a row that ended with a :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You know I am aware of all of these and thinking about them all the time. THIS RIGHT HERE makes it damn near impossible to make a decision on anything. This is part of the seeing things from different perspectives thing I talk about all the time. Are one or more of these influencing my decision right now? Based on a few things you come to the decision, yes they are. Then you think some more and realize of you look at it from another angle and realize, no I am not. You can come up with 20 bazillion ways to look at it to come up with a yes or no answer. Also, you can make it even more complicated by layering them and layering multiple motivations stemming from multiple motivations stemming from all the way back to birth. Eventually I just have to pick. Do it or don't. What do I want to happen? Everyonce in a while if you get lucky by running through one of these analyzations incompletely, because there is not enough time in ones life to go through it completely, you may stumble upon a really important reason to choose one action as opposed to the other. But, with knowledge comes responsability. But, how much of this is analyzation is really possible in the time alotted? That is why I just follow the shiny things as opposed to the mucky things. :happy: Unless of course you feel like playing in the mud because you are spunky and bored. :wink:


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

Unicorntopia said:


> Then you think some more and realize of you look at it from another angle and realize, no I am not. You can come up with 20 bazillion ways to look at it to come up with a yes or no answer. Also, you can make it even more complicated by layering them and layering multiple motivations stemming from multiple motivations stemming from all the way back to birth. Eventually I just have to pick. Do it or don't. What do I want to happen?


When this happens to me, I try to stop introspecting, and head out into the real world for a change. :laughing:


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## Psychosmurf (Aug 22, 2010)

Projection bias – the tendency to unconsciously assume that others (or one's future selves) share one's current emotional states, thoughts and values.[42]

This has got to be my favorite bias. 

It can be fun to make your decisions based on things you think you _will_ prefer in the future. :crazy:


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

Psychosmurf said:


> It can be fun to make your decisions based on things you think you _will_ prefer in the future. :crazy:


You mean like, shopping groceries...? :crazy:


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

Psychosmurf said:


> Projection bias – the tendency to unconsciously assume that others (or one's future selves) share one's current emotional states, thoughts and values.[42]
> 
> This has got to be my favorite bias.
> 
> It can be fun to make your decisions based on things you think you _will_ prefer in the future. :crazy:


I have been preaching this one alot for the last 3 to 5 years. I use it mostly when talking about relationships and one person is paranoid the other _would most likely flirt with the other person and fall for them_, or something along those lines, because that is what they themselves would do in that situation. 

I also have been preaching one about where the person thinks they are one way, but have yet to be in a situation that truely tests that presumption. -- This happens with young people alot. 

Side note: Why can't there be a word "alot" as opposed to always having it be separated in "a" "lot?" It is so much easier to just type it together and not use the space. From now on I will make that one of my many rules that I purposefully break because I like it better the other way and there are not any consequenses worth the trouble.


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## Psychosmurf (Aug 22, 2010)

^ Because... obviously.... "alot" would be pronounced ehy-lut. >.<

Hwoveer, I cloud crae lsee how you selleped yuor wrods as lnog as you kept the lsat two letetrs in the smae plcae and all of the letetrs in the midlde are the same. :crazy:


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

Psychosmurf said:


> ^ Because... obviously.... "alot" would be pronounced ehy-lut. >.<
> 
> Hwoveer, I cloud crae lsee how you selleped yuor wrods as lnog as you kept the lsat two letetrs in the smae plcae and all of the letetrs in the midlde are the same. :crazy:


As lnog as you scitk to the short words, srue. But citelmxopy iaeecnrss eplinneoaltxy wtih legnor wdors. :crazy:


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## Psychosmurf (Aug 22, 2010)

Lol. Huge Ne brainwave.

Your sig:

Never attribute to type that which is adequately explained by environment.

Corresponding bias:* Actor–observer bias – the tendency for explanations of other individuals' behaviors to overemphasize the influence of their personality and underemphasize the influence of their situation (see also Fundamental attribution error). However, this is coupled with the opposite tendency for the self in that explanations for our own behaviors overemphasize the influence of our situation and underemphasize the influence of our own personality.


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

Psychosmurf said:


> Corresponding bias:* Actor–observer bias – the tendency for explanations of other individuals' behaviors to overemphasize the influence of their personality and underemphasize the influence of their situation (see also Fundamental attribution error). However, this is coupled with the opposite tendency for the self in that explanations for our own behaviors overemphasize the influence of our situation and underemphasize the influence of our own personality.


Of course, how otherwise to explain my own mistakes and other people's stupidity/malice/whatever-you-prefer... :laughing::laughing::laughing:

Do you have a "bias bias" somewhere up your sleeve as well? Like, attributing everything to bias and not acknowledging any true insight? :laughing:


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

penchant said:


> Of course, how otherwise to explain my own mistakes and other people stupidity/malice/whatever-you-prefer... :laughing::laughing::laughing:
> 
> Do you have a "bias bias" somewhere up your sleeve as well? Like, attributing everything to bias and not acknowledging any true insight? :laughing:


Double thanks :laughing:


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## TheYellow (Oct 28, 2010)

It can be hard to honestly type yourself when you're hyper aware of everything that could go wrong or anything you could be because of circumstance 'x'. It can help to have someone you knew before you became aware of MBTI to describe you.
Sometimes things at face value are right and any more questioning will just lead to confusion.


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## vel (May 17, 2010)

penchant said:


> Do you have a "bias bias" somewhere up your sleeve as well? Like, attributing everything to bias and not acknowledging any true insight? :laughing:


I was just reading through that long list of biases and definitely acquired that one :crazy:


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## Psychosmurf (Aug 22, 2010)

> Of course, how otherwise to explain my own mistakes and other people's stupidity/malice/whatever-you-prefer...
> 
> Do you have a "bias bias" somewhere up your sleeve as well? Like, attributing everything to bias and not acknowledging any true insight?


No. I didn't mean it that way. :tongue: What I was pointing out was that your signature tells people to avoid the bias I pointed out. :happy:


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

Psychosmurf said:


> No. I didn't mean it that way. :tongue: What I was pointing out was that your signature tells people to avoid the bias I pointed out. :happy:


Don't worry. I got that... :happy:


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

TheYellow said:


> It can be hard to honestly type yourself when you're hyper aware of everything that could go wrong or anything you could be because of circumstance 'x'. It can help to have someone you knew before you became aware of MBTI to describe you.
> Sometimes things at face value are right and any more questioning will just lead to confusion.


Thanks @TheYellow, that is so true. I wrote the introductory post 99% what i would have said just before I learned about Carl Jung and MBTI. I did it on purpose to avoid what you are talking about and get some opinions from people without the bias. Eventually I started to give up because the options people gave were INFP, INTP, INTJ, and INFJ. Ni/Fe can mimic Fi extremely well. INFJ has 3rd Ti which alerted people that I had T but not to what extent. I know quite a few INTJs and find that they are quite obviously relatively unaware of how others are feeling and why they are doing what they are doing. The only way they can see it is by thinking about it objectively outside of the moment. INTJs tend to enjoy history, research, and non people system organization alot better than I do and it comes easier to them. 

I guess my main concerns were if I was really an unhealthy shy ENFJ or a deluded INFP.


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