# What are the Limits on Neuroplasticity?



## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

I guess this is almost a psych/philosophy question, but I found a link on it that seemed more of scientific interest. Something I haven't been clear on for awhile (and I studied Psychology in college with emphasis on the biological/neuroscience part of it), is where exactly the limitations are on how the brain can adapt and change. The most obvious example of where this comes into question, I think, would be sexual orientation. Another area where it comes into question would be gender differences and gender identity (and also, WRT to the latter, whether this is 'real' i.e. biological and not a socially constructed/ego-type self-image with no other basis in the person in terms of their 'wiring'). 

Well, when I googled what this thread is titled, this blog post came up: A.E.Brain: Limits on Neuroplasticity - and the infamous BSTc layer 

The author reviews some gender/sexuality findings and then quotes this argument from another author: 


> It is critical to understand where the fallacies in this argument lie. First, it is false to conclude that because a particular behavior starts small in children and grows, that behavior has little or no biological basis. One has only to think of handedness, walking, and language to see the point. Second, this argument presupposes that human "cultural" influences are somehow formed independent of the existing biological predispositions of the human brain. But third, and most important, is the key fallacy in the plasticity argument: the implication that the brain is perfectly plastic. It is not. The brain is plastic only within the limits set by biology.


Couldn't find much else on this topic except religious websites using neuroplasticity to argue that sexual orientation can be changed. But I also found this article, it's rather long though. https://psmag.com/can-you-think-yourself-into-a-different-person-f22901212365#.qw7aig6ct 

Some key points:



> ...I do think human beings have much more control over their brain function than has been appreciated....The long answer is: yes, but with caveats. First there’s the influence of our genes. Surely, I ask Robertson, they still hold a powerful influence over everything from our health to our character? “My own crude rule of thumb is a 50–50 split in terms of the influence of nature and that of nurture,” he says. “But we should be very positive about that 50 percent that’s environmental.





> This, then, is the truth about neuroplasticity: it does exist, and it does work, but it’s not a miracle discovery that means that, with a little effort, you can turn yourself into a broccoli-loving, marathon-running, disease-immune, super-awesome genius. The “deep question,” says Chris McManus, professor of psychology and medical education at University College London, is, “why do people, even scientists, want to believe all this?” Curious about the underlying causes of the neuroplasticity craze, he believes it is just the latest version of the personal-transformation myth that’s been haunting the culture of the West for generations.





> ...The irony is that when scientists carefully describe the blind seeing and the deaf hearing, and we hear it as talk of wild miracles, it’s the fault of our neuroplasticity.


So, where would you place the limitations? Obviously, they seem to come somewhere before blindness, deafness, and other serious issues where neurological connections are involved. But there seems to be more plasticity when it comes to something more behavioral, which is more abstract and less purely sense-based. But then certain behaviors like "broccoli loving" seem relatively fixed, e.g. we can't really rewire ourselves not to prefer cake to vegetables. And in a similar way it seems sexual preference can't be rewired. I don't think the science is able to give a clear answer here, I just wonder if there ever can be one (or if there has been research to back a specific position on this, in which case I'd like to know about it).


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## Clayfighter (Jun 21, 2016)

it depends on the person, some are more rigid than others. I think the limit literally would be at curing deafness and blindness etc.

Maybe it's just because I feel I have a limited self-construct, but I'm almost inclined to believe I could change my gender identity and sexual orientation if I wanted to. I just have no desire to, but my mind seems very open to such things.

I think we can change ourselves in very drastic ways just so long as we are open to it. What closes everyone off to such changes is simply their lack of openness. If you don't believe you can change you never will.


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

Clayfighter said:


> it depends on the person, some are more rigid than others. I think the limit literally would be at curing deafness and blindness etc.


That's true, "hyperplasticity" is actually the term used in a hypothesis about addictive tendencies (that some people's reward circuitry is so adaptable, it gets hooked easily, which is also a pattern seen in adolescence. But in addicts it's seen in adults as well).



> Maybe it's just because I feel I have a limited self-construct, but I'm almost inclined to believe I could change my gender identity and sexual orientation if I wanted to. I just have no desire to, but my mind seems very open to such things.
> 
> I think we can change ourselves in very drastic ways just so long as we are open to it. What closes everyone off to such changes is simply their lack of openness. If you don't believe you can change you never will.


Do you think you could really do it on a bodily level though, or is it more intellectual? I've thought about that, I mean in theory if someone doesn't have a problem with say, homosexuality, they could just change themselves to be gay, and then just switch back and forth out of curiosity? lol. Hypothetically I'd probably be willing to do that, I have no idea how I'd start going about it though haha.

But then if you think about something like fight or flight, which is fairly specific in the types of stimuli it reacts to, and sexuality utilizes that circuitry as well... it seems like there are some instinctual things that are more hardwired, like the senses are. I don't know where the point is where it becomes "too" instinctual though. On the other side of this are (ex)-porn addicts, as well as experts who study them, saying how porn rewires the brain. Which sounds a lot like rewiring sexuality, but then some people's real-life preferences aren't rewired at the same time, and others' are, which goes back to your point about the plasticity itself being varied.

I wonder if "desire" really is the limitation, because imagination/theorizing is basically unlimited. On that note: where would you place something like Down's Syndrome?

Also, if some people are more rigid than others, doesn't that suggest plasticity itself is at least partly biologically determined?


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## Clayfighter (Jun 21, 2016)

yeah, in fact you already mentioned that with the 50% genetic and 50% environmental. so part of it is biologically determined. I have rewired my epistemology and subsequently my belief structure in a day before, then I switched it back. I use nihilism as a tool to believe my own shit sometimes. :laughing: 
It definitely makes it easier to strip myself of my beliefs when necessary.

The level you are capable of processing information/intelligence.... and therefore downs syndrome is static. Autism isnt reversible either. How I would go about changing everything else is just commitment to the part.

If you are a talented method actor, you can literally become the part.


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

Clayfighter said:


> yeah, in fact you already mentioned that with the 50% genetic and 50% environmental. so part of it is biologically determined. I have rewired my epistemology and subsequently my belief structure in a day before, then I switched it back. I use nihilism as a tool to believe my own shit sometimes. :laughing:
> It definitely makes it easier to strip myself of my beliefs when necessary.
> 
> The level you are capable of processing information/intelligence.... and therefore downs syndrome is static. Autism isnt reversible either. How I would go about changing everything else is just commitment to the part.
> ...


Some people use plasticity as an argument for intelligence being changeable as well. I think most evidence points to it being fairly consistent throughout life though. 

"Gay for pay", lol.


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## IDontThinkSo (Aug 24, 2011)

Limiters are your personality and the size of your skull.

Some personalities can't exploit their plasticity as much as others.


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

IDontThinkSo said:


> Limiters are your personality and the size of your skull.
> 
> Some personalities can't exploit their plasticity as much as others.


What kinds of personalities do you think have an advantage here?


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## Clayfighter (Jun 21, 2016)

Openness, or openness to experience is one personality trait in the big five factor model.

Neuroplasticity requires a level of openness to experience in order to be malleable.


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

Clayfighter said:


> Openness, or openness to experience is one personality trait in the big five factor model.
> 
> Neuroplasticity requires a level of openness to experience in order to be malleable.


Can someone learn to be more open to experience? :ball:


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## Clayfighter (Jun 21, 2016)

NinjaBladesOfDoom said:


> Can someone learn to be more open to experience? :ball:


No, and maybe. 

If they refuse to see the benefits in being open, then they will not change or become more open. I believe people who have a certain degree of openness can learn to be open to more kinds of experiences, but they cant alter their openness internally. They can only alter what experiences they choose to be open to, but not the degree of openness to the experience.

Theoretically speaking, its possible. It is just highly improbable.


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## Wiz (Apr 8, 2014)

This is a very interesting subject. I like to think that 'everything' can be changed through neuroplasticity, with the exception of damaged tissue beyond repair. But in the future, who knows?

I know that what you believe will be 'true' in a sense. If you doubtlessly believe you're 'the boss', then you're probably act like one. The epigenetic sciences claim to prove such.


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## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

NinjaBladesOfDoom said:


> I guess this is almost a psych/philosophy question, but I found a link on it that seemed more of scientific interest. Something I haven't been clear on for awhile (and I studied Psychology in college with emphasis on the biological/neuroscience part of it), is where exactly the limitations are on how the brain can adapt and change. The most obvious example of where this comes into question, I think, would be sexual orientation. Another area where it comes into question would be gender differences and gender identity (and also, WRT to the latter, whether this is 'real' i.e. biological and not a socially constructed/ego-type self-image with no other basis in the person in terms of their 'wiring').
> 
> Well, when I googled what this thread is titled, this blog post came up: A.E.Brain: Limits on Neuroplasticity - and the infamous BSTc layer
> 
> ...


I think that the term neuroplasticity has been misused for many things. If I understand it correctly, neuroplasticity is (simply said) just the property of dendrites to disconnect from and (re)connect to other neurons......... If you have a little bit of knowledge about how information is stored in the brain and how it gets updated, then you know that this process is necessary for a brain to work. It's not some magical property of brains that can cause all kinds of magical things.

It's like discovering that wheels turn and the thinking that cars have magical properties because their wheels turn.

So,... limits? Is that even a relevant question if you understand what neurons do?


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

Peter said:


> I think that the term neuroplasticity has been misused for many things. If I understand it correctly, neuroplasticity is (simply said) just the property of dendrites to disconnect from and (re)connect to other neurons......... If you have a little bit of knowledge about how information is stored in the brain and how it gets updated, then you know that this process is necessary for a brain to work. It's not some magical property of brains that can cause all kinds of magical things.
> 
> It's like discovering that wheels turn and the thinking that cars have magical properties because their wheels turn.
> 
> So,... limits? Is that even a relevant question if you understand what neurons do?


I'm basically asking what the implications are. Given the underlying process, what is feasibly attainable and what is not? Rehabilitation is often mentioned, for example. 
BrainLine.org :: BrainLine.org



> Many researchers have proposed that neuroplasticity can be a key to the development of new and effective treatments for degenerative diseases such as Parkinson’s, Alzheimer’s and cerebral palsy. Also, adaptive brain capacity shows promise in improving treatments for stroke patients. People who have damaged brain due to traumatic brain injury are usually able to recover faster when plasticity of the brain works effectively and only a few neurons are damaged.


https://explorable.com/neuroplasticity


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## strawberryLola (Sep 19, 2010)

NinjaBladesOfDoom said:


> I guess this is almost a psych/philosophy question, but I found a link on it that seemed more of scientific interest. Something I haven't been clear on for awhile (and I studied Psychology in college with emphasis on the biological/neuroscience part of it), is where exactly the limitations are on how the brain can adapt and change. The most obvious example of where this comes into question, I think, would be sexual orientation. Another area where it comes into question would be gender differences and gender identity (and also, WRT to the latter, whether this is 'real' i.e. biological and not a socially constructed/ego-type self-image with no other basis in the person in terms of their 'wiring').
> 
> Well, when I googled what this thread is titled, this blog post came up: A.E.Brain: Limits on Neuroplasticity - and the infamous BSTc layer
> 
> ...


That's a really awesome question I never really though about.. as far as stem cells go for cellular rejuvenation, up to what point can neuroplasticity reach its optimum to the point of decline or no change at all?

Hormones definitely are something neuroplasticity cannot regulate without other functions of the body such as the liver, spleen, kidneys and thyroids which help aid the release of our neurobiology.

The limitations could also include the fact that consciousness isn't just defined as a physical manifestation. It's something intangible, and how can one measure levels of consciousness purely based on 5 sense observations? How much does consciousness play a role in the development of neuroplasticity, if at all, and to what degree?


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

strawberryLola said:


> The limitations could also include the fact that consciousness isn't just defined as a physical manifestation. It's something intangible, and how can one measure levels of consciousness purely based on 5 sense observations? How much does consciousness play a role in the development of neuroplasticity, if at all, and to what degree?


That sounds like a reframing of the free will question


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## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

NinjaBladesOfDoom said:


> I'm basically asking what the implications are. Given the underlying process, what is feasibly attainable and what is not? Rehabilitation is often mentioned, for example.


It's all about connectivity. Neuroplasticity, the ability of Neurons to reconnect to other neurons, can only do this if the dendrites are close enough to the axons of other neurons that would take over the function of damaged or missing neurons. Different parts of the brain comunicate with eachother. Thats's done through dendrites and axons. Especially the axons can get very long (long enough to reach other parts of the brain.) The axons are the white matter in a brain. If white matter gets damaged, it means a lot of long distance comunications (to other brain parts) are broken. This is a bigger problem I think then when just pieces of gray matter are damaged. Even though the grey matter is actually where the processing of information itself occurs, for the brain to function properly, it is important that different areas comunicate properly with eachother. Neurons have only 1 axon, when these are broken it pretty much renders the cell useless, especially in comunications with other parts of the brain. (Could be a neuron can regrow an axon, I don't know if this is true.)

So depending on the damage, there may be the possibility to regain function. If the damage is localized, meaning small parts of the brain damaged, then neurons can reconnect easily. But if large amounts of connections are damaged, then neuroplasticity won't be able to compensate much.


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