# Losing My Faith (In Typology)



## Vacious (Nov 2, 2014)

I can definitely see where you're coming from OP.


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## jinhong91 (Apr 29, 2014)

I see it as a useful framework.

Sort of like a faint sketching on a canvas, gives me a rough idea on where to start and what to do etc.
A system of how other people see this world and how likely they have a certain approach to certain stuff.
I definitely can see the use of it but of course I don't delve too deeply into it. It's easy to get burnt mentally when you are so into them like many other stuff in life.

And like many other stuff in life, balance is key.


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## the401 (Mar 1, 2015)

Ixim said:


> It's actually the type I came from. Just the one. Aha, there is this thing. Are you basing your FiSe view on MBTI or on Jung or on Socio or on all of those? There is this as you aptly put it "similitude, but most of the time you can tell the difference between those systems".


yea there is this similarity because ENFP's tend to be A LOT more expressive than INFP's. 

ISFP's while also have an Fi dom their aux is Se which makes them much more aggressive/ "to the point" when expressing their words. INFP's are usually most of the time "passive aggressive".

i don't know how to describe the similarity but it seems so obvious....... i mean if i were to describe it the best i can, it's that the ENFP usually show very clear Ne. whereas the the ISFP shows Ni. It's kinda easy to tell between an weak Ni and an strong Ne it's usually all over the place lol.

plus, there's this certain complexity that you type with, i think it can be a very clear Ne . ISFP's are very simple and our messages are more "to the point" / "straight forward".

however, i'd like to point out another thing that i find that i think is really important is that on your profile page you mention 

_"immediately and you'll also notice the energy with which I speak. Se."_

this is no doubt an Ne/Ne- Fi dom. ISFP's almost NEVER have energy when they speak, we are almost ALWAYS soft spoken. Unless it is something that we strongly value/ passionate about then we are almost NEVER energetic and ALWAYS soft spoken.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

the401 said:


> prob all of them. MBTI and Jung i know best but i remember stumbling upon the socio before too.
> 
> yea there is this similarity because ENFP's tend to be A LOT more expressive than INFP's.
> 
> ...


I'll now do something. You won't need anymore than that. Just lemme find it: <crap can't find my video with entropic> . I'll redirect you to one of my threads then: http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-personality-type/528282-quick-easy.html . You can find more than you asked for there.


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## the401 (Mar 1, 2015)

Ixim said:


> I'll now do something. You won't need anymore than that. Just lemme find it: <crap can't find my video with entropic> . I'll redirect you to one of my threads then: http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-personality-type/528282-quick-easy.html . You can find more than you asked for there.


HOLY SHIT lol. yea based on that thread i'd say you are most likely an ENFP no doubt about it.

one thing for sure is that you are definitely not an ISFP, just the complexity and the manner of which you speak....... definitely not an ISFP.

but that's just what i think. 

you should try making another thread i the "what's my personality" section and try a better title so you will actually attract some people to help you lol.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

the401 said:


> HOLY SHIT lol. yea based on that thread i'd say you are most likely an ENFP no doubt about it.
> 
> one thing for sure is that you are definitely not an ISFP, just the complexity and the manner of which you speak....... definitely not an ISFP.
> 
> ...


I just want you to see my video dam it!


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## the401 (Mar 1, 2015)

Ixim said:


> I just want you to see my video dam it!


hmmmm can you make another one?


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

the401 said:


> hmmmm can you make another one?


No, not so fast because I'm not the only one involved.

Let's see if this works(tho I don't think you'll be able to see it until tomorrow): @Amaterasu : Can you post a link to my video please?


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Ixim said:


> No, not so fast because I'm not the only one involved.
> 
> Let's see if this works(tho I don't think you'll be able to see it until tomorrow): @_Amaterasu_ : Can you post a link to my video please?


Yeah


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## Abraxas (May 28, 2011)

Typology is, like everything else in reality, a tool.

Take a sword for instance. There are many kinds of swords, for many different purposes, and some are better than others.

But no matter what kind of sword you are swinging, you probably aren't going to win any battles with it unless you're a _warrior_.

Thus, blaming typology for the short-comings in people is, I think missing the point. Guns certainly do kill people, but it's people that misuse them.

Have I lost my faith in typology? I have not.

Have I lost my faith in present-day _humanity?_

I have. A long, long time ago.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Abraxas said:


> Typology is, like everything else in reality, a tool.
> 
> Take a sword for instance. There are many kinds of swords, for many different purposes, and some are better than others.
> 
> ...


Agreed, OP, the issue most likely lies elsewhere. It's easy to scapegoat when you're a human.

Why have you lost faith in present day humanity?


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## Abraxas (May 28, 2011)

Kintsugi said:


> Agreed, OP, the issue most likely lies elsewhere. It's easy to scapegoat when you're a human.
> 
> Why have you lost faith in present day humanity?


If you're asking me, it's because I think we are currently caught in the turmoil of a very specific historical turning point that has no precedent in the history of our species - the advent of the internet. The globalization of communication between people has turned the world of information into a battle royale being won by whatever forces influence major social trends. Currently, democracy is winning, and it continues to spread around the world. But the problem with democracy is that it depends upon the integrity of the _demos_ - the people - to self-govern correctly, and they will never do this if they are being conditioned by corruption, a lack of education, or insufficient freedoms to express their ideas.

The bottom line is, if you asked me if I would bring a child into this world right now, my answer would be (and is) "no, I would not." I don't think this Earth, as it stands right now, is a healthy environment for a human being. And I'm not talking about physical pollution either, or war, or violence. I'm talking about the much more terrifying and long-term poisoning of our collective unconscious.

Jung put it best, taken from his interview with Richard Evans in 1957:

Nowadays particularly, the world hangs on a thin thread. Assume that certain fellows in Moscow lose their nerve or their common sense for a bit; then the whole world is in violent flames. Nowadays we are not threatened by elemental catastrophes. There is no such thing as an H-bomb; that is all man's doing. We are the great danger. The psyche is the great danger. What if something goes wrong with the psyche? And so it is demonstrated to us in our days what the power of psyche is, how important it is to know something about it. But we know nothing about it. Nobody would give credit to the idea that the psychical processes of the ordinary man have any importance whatever. One thinks, "Oh, he has just what he has in his head; he is all from his surroundings; he is taught such and such a thing, believes such and such a thing, and particularly if he is well housed and well fed, then he has no ideas at all.” And that's the great mistake, because man is just that which he is born, and he is not born as tabula rasa but as a reality.


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## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

Hey guys, so I've been following the thread and it seems there's a repeated misunderstanding. 

Some people appear to be thinking that I'm blaming my problems on Typology?

Here are some words from the OP that are in direct reference to that:


LostFavor said:


> typology can validate, and support, *pre-existing* problems.
> 
> There's a lesson here that has nothing to do with typology itself and everything to do with us - the people who use it. *I'm not suggesting that typology is a problem, but rather that examining how we utilize typology in our own lives can be a window into issues that we are dealing with.*


Carry on. ^_^


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Abraxas said:


> If you're asking me, it's because I think we are currently caught in the turmoil of a very specific historical turning point that has no precedent in the history of our species - the advent of the internet. The globalization of communication between people has turned the world of information into a battle royale being won by whatever forces influence major social trends. Currently, democracy is winning, and it continues to spread around the world. But the problem with democracy is that it depends upon the integrity of the _demos_ - the people - to self-govern correctly, and they will never do this if they are being conditioned by corruption, a lack of education, or insufficient freedoms to express their ideas.
> 
> The bottom line is, if you asked me if I would bring a child into this world right now, my answer would be (and is) "no, I would not." I don't think this Earth, as it stands right now, is a healthy environment for a human being. And I'm not talking about physical pollution either, or war, or violence. I'm talking about the much more terrifying and long-term poisoning of our collective unconscious.
> 
> ...


You raise some important points, but; there are too many variables to predict this stuff. The world is much greater and more complex than that what exists inside of your head.

I can relate though.


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## Abraxas (May 28, 2011)

LostFavor said:


> Hey guys, so I've been following the thread and it seems there's a repeated misunderstanding.
> 
> Some people appear to be thinking that I'm blaming my problems on Typology?
> 
> Carry on. ^_^


If you are referring to my post, I was not under the impression that you were blaming typology at all. I actually recognize (unless I'm mistaken) that we are in agreement.

My sentiment on the issue is my own, I was only using your thread to voice it because it is the topic at hand. It was not to call you out personally, only those who make the mistake of misusing typology.


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## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

Abraxas said:


> If you are referring to my post, I was not under the impression that you were blaming typology at all. I actually recognize (unless I'm mistaken) that we are in agreement.
> 
> My sentiment on the issue is my own, I was only using your thread to voice it because it is the topic at hand. It was not to call you out personally, only those who make the mistake of misusing typology.


Yours was one of a few, so not the only person I was thinking of, but thanks for clarifying. I see I was mistaken about you being one of the few.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

I'm so glad you made this thread, OP. If I were to seriously tell anyone outside of PerC who doesn't give a damn about typology; that I have actually lost friends over this: because they had some insane idea that I was one type of something over another type of something, and that their pseudo-knowledge unfortunately so went to their head; that they decided that they were some kind of guru of typing and that I was being "petty", not to allow them to force feed their whacked out misunderstanding of the various typology systems down my throat.

I seriously wish I was making this up but sadly I'm not and it's frighteningly not the first time that this has happened to me on this site, and I sadly would not be shocked if it wasn't the last.

:th_sad:


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Amaterasu said:


> Yeah


Why thank you dear!

To anyone else doubting me, what I just did just cements Se. If you indeed are Se, you will not have trouble calling upon someone(whether it is main or aux). Ama, as an SeFi can attest to that. But I am eager for mr @reckful to come and watch this. I REALLY am.

It's the ILI showdown! :tongue:


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

LostFavor said:


> What do you see it reflecting in your life? Is it positive? Negative? Both? Share to your heart's content. Or don't. One of the two.


It's both positive and negative. I don't think typology is the issue, it's more the approach.

I think typology is an interesting tool. When we analyse and observe people we are usually doing it, using some kind of framework; and typology is just another one of those (that works better for some than it does for others). I feel that a lot of people try and use various typology systems to try and explain _everything_, which is where a lot of the issues occur. Humans are a lot more complex than the 4 letter codes or number we give ourselves on this forum. I know that seems like I'm stating the obvious, but I myself have struggled with this issue in the past. I feel at one stage typology had become my hammer and it was limiting my perspective. 

I tend to drift back and forth with typology. I think it's healthy to take regular breaks. I've reached a stage where I no longer feel that it dominates my worldview/perspective; and I simply use it as a tool to help me understand and communicate with others better. In ways it's helped me become more open-minded and aware that there are _many _different perspectives and ways of processing information.


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## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

Ixim said:


> Yeah, I don't know what to do with it either. I learned both my MBTI type and my enneatype and now...what?


Well there are many uses. Like every tool, it's only useful if you learn to use it well. At first its use will be awkward and cause more problems, not less. You have to get through that phase and become proficient before its real power is revealed. Also, just like let's say the use of a sword, some folks just can't seem to get the hang of one or both of those systems.

But here is a brief idea of uses:

1) Examine the type you are and pay BY FAR the most attention to the weaknesses of your type. Being aware of your weaknesses can help you prepare for them. It allows you at least to doubt that you are strong where the system says you are weak. In certain cases this is a big deal. 

I will not go into super detail here but let's just say this:

6w7 can be cautious and dither, deflecting issues with humor or snarkiness. Their overreactions are usually a bit rebellious if not crass. Finally, they tend to be too busy, checking boxes, following lists, and unwilling or unable to deviate or deal with self-doubt when they are forced off the tracks by life's circumstances.

It's likely that a hardline 6 that also lists themselves as lawful good is a bit rigid about judgements of others and somewhat defensive about their own life choices. Wisdom says those are weaknesses and some mellowing is in order.

2) Examine the type you are and be aware of your strength AS A WEAKNESS. This is your ego trance, your delusion. It seems to be a strength and in many ways it is, but the over focus on it will prevent you from becoming fully wise. You have to integrate all the other virtues equally for that.

3) Lastly, use the types to at least get a feel for typing others on the fly. This helps determine their likely motivations. It becomes easier to predict their behaviors and probabilities of things happening. You know with certain types where the gotchas are likely going to come. For a group-conscious 6 like you, this is ideal in practice. 

If you get good at reading others you can approach them with specific communication tailored to them and by being mindful of the type's mindset you can avoid misunderstandings.


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## ScarlettHayden (Jun 8, 2012)

Yeah typology is mostly useless though I wouldn't say completely. As I saw it put another way it seems to be a transition point for a lot of people. One can't really stick to it for long periods of time as it just makes less and less sense. I guess it's fun sometimes but not really that important. My own type I'm content to leave as unknown as I'm not just a bunch of four letters in a particular order, I'm a complex and dynamic living being who can't be defined by such a narrow system.

Funnily enough, the point of psychology is to become more whole and happy with yourself, in doing that you become pretty much typeless anyway. You utilise all aspects of your psyche, not just one or two which are categorised as being ego functions.

I like to take tests sometimes and I keep my results and track them over a long period of time. I can't tell you how many times I've tested as different types in the last year alone: INTJ, ISTJ, ESTJ, ENTJ, INTP, INFP, ENFP, INFJ, ISTP, ISFP... I'm not kidding. And to me it doesn't matter and is not important because I realise that personality is not static and we can change at any given moment.

So I don't have faith in it, but I also don't care about it, which makes it more fun in the end. :kitteh:


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

series0 said:


> Well there are many uses. Like every tool, it's only useful if you learn to use it well. At first its use will be awkward and cause more problems, not less. You have to get through that phase and become proficient before its real power is revealed. Also, just like let's say the use of a sword, some folks just can't seem to get the hang of one or both of those systems.
> 
> But here is a brief idea of uses:
> 
> ...


Thank you!

Just one little thing. I could be an 8 as much as I could be a 6. I have a hunch that I am a CP 6(whether it's w7 or w5 is to be determined, some'd say that I have balanced 6 wings) and from that you of course understand how difficult it is to differentiate between a CP 6 and an 8.


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## reckful (Jun 19, 2012)

Ixim said:


> But I am eager for mr @reckful to come and watch this. I REALLY am.
> 
> It's the ILI showdown! :tongue:


Just as a reminder, I watched quite a lot of that video back in January and piddled on Entropic's "forceful ISFP" analysis — and gave you quite a lot more type input — in this post.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

reckful said:


> Just as a reminder, I watched quite a lot of that video back in January and piddled on Entropic's "forceful ISFP" analysis — and gave you quite a lot more type input — in this post.


Ah I forgot. Sorry!


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

reckful said:


> Just as a reminder, I watched quite a lot of that video back in January and piddled on Entropic's "forceful ISFP" analysis — and gave you quite a lot more type input — in this post.


And this:

Damn those posts of yours are boring. HYPER scientific things they are. It's difficult for me to read them tbh(I have this vivacity that just goes all haywire when science enters the room). I'll try for my own benefit. This is just the thing preventing me from ever finishing college. See, science is a Jedi. I am a Sith(full truth). We just...can't go together.


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## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

Ixim said:


> Thank you!
> 
> Just one little thing. I could be an 8 as much as I could be a 6. I have a hunch that I am a CP 6(whether it's w7 or w5 is to be determined, some'd say that I have balanced 6 wings) and from that you of course understand how difficult it is to differentiate between a CP 6 and an 8.


Humorously, nothing is easier to differentiate from, especially in person. I am an 8. I have two friends that are cp6 because, yeah, we are all a bit gruff and strong, and cultivate strong people in our midst to handle each of our strengths. See how that goes? It's really something of a weakness.

Anyway, cp6 are negative. They start everything with 'no', or 'I don't think so'. They almost can't help it until they become mindful of this tendency. Even people around them, and especially those people, who get things VERY right or offer great insight will get a 'no' from a cp6 when they first offer some wisdom. That is because cp6 cannot accept that they do not already have a grasp on anything useful. Their fear of being caught out by fear is epic beyond all understanding. They are also nervous types with a tight mouth and they would annoy crowds of looser individuals, like the no fun at a high school dance type.

The 8 is a free-wheeling swaggerer and couldn't care less if someone offers wisdom or not. They can sit there and smile their self-assured smile and let it pass. In fact an 8 can let anything pass. They are too tough for their own good. Even damage to themselves is not that big of a deal. They don't usually bother going to doctors unless someone forces them or some pain is really wearing down their energy which is high. An 8 at a dance would be challenging other men and boldly trying even silly or abrasive things to get the ladies out there to dance. I am just talking about men right now.

So, yes, the two types get along and seem similar to other types. But that similarity is only on the surface. If you know the system you can super easily separate the two. 

This is also worth noting. Over time the 6 will fit into the mainstream. They progress to 3 and decline to 9 so they are pure mainstream 3-6-9. The 8 is fringe and a challenge to the mainstream and if an 8 is not careful they are likely not to end up integrating very well into society. So the 'just-say-no' but go along to get along and somewhat image-aware 6 fares better in equal cases of raw talent most of the time.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

series0 said:


> Humorously, nothing is easier to differentiate from, especially in person. I am an 8. I have two friends that are cp6 because, yeah, we are all a bit gruff and strong, and cultivate strong people in our midst to handle each of our strengths. See how that goes? It's really something of a weakness.
> 
> Anyway, cp6 are negative. They start everything with 'no', or 'I don't think so'. They almost can't help it until they become mindful of this tendency. Even people around them, and especially those people, who get things VERY right or offer great insight will get a 'no' from a cp6 when they first offer some wisdom. That is because cp6 cannot accept that they do not already have a grasp on anything useful. Their fear of being caught out by fear is epic beyond all understanding. They are also nervous types with a tight mouth and they would annoy crowds of looser individuals, like the no fun at a high school dance type.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'm a cp6. I often start questions with no or not exactly or things like that. Just am not sure about a wing(maybe they're balanced as I already mentioned).

As for tritype, if it even applies, 684. The truth teller yeah. I really can't stand lies and deceptions and things like that and am as blunt as possible.


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## Turelie (Jul 22, 2010)

For me, any kind of personality typing is only useful in analyzing and understanding myself. Even then it is just a jumping off point. Yes, I may say on here or to other people, "I am ISFP," but no I am not an ISFP. I am Messa, and I will continue to grow and develop. I don't even want to see other people as types and limit them.

Personality typing is one tool among many tools for personal growth. IMO.


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## Simpson17866 (Dec 3, 2014)

Messa said:


> For me, any kind of personality typing is only useful in analyzing and understanding myself. Even then it is just a jumping off point. Yes, I may say on here or to other people, "I am ISFP," *but no I am not an ISFP. I am Messa, and I will continue to grow and develop. I don't even want to see other people as types and limit them.*
> 
> *Personality typing is one tool among many tools for personal growth*. IMO.


 I think your second point just solved the problem that you thought you had with your first point :wink:

You're exactly right that no *one* tool can help people understand each other perfectly, but that just means that people should use *several* of the available tools instead of *none* of them.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

reckful said:


> Just as a reminder, I watched quite a lot of that video back in January and piddled on Entropic's "forceful ISFP" analysis — and gave you quite a lot more type input — in this post.


Sell me an EII.

I tried to use left/right brain tests, but I'm balanced! I say that as if it were a bad thing lol. 2 said left balanced(60-40), 2 said right balanced(40-60) and 1 said just balanced(50-50%). Is difficult to determine. According to socio my tendency to emphasize words(you know JUST what I mean  ) is actually a sign of ESI, that is Se.

edit: Left side would lead to FiNe while right to FiSe. fyi.
edit edit: I can't be FiNe seeing how it is Strategic. I REALLY am not strategic. I am the very definition of Tactical. An example: I don't care two flying fks if a build in an MMO has the highest dps if it is boring as fk(typically juggling and maintaining 3+ DoTs). Meanwhile, if a build has suboptimal dps but is actually FUN to pull off...yes please! Unless I have mistaken Tactics/Strategy for Process/Result, which I think I have not.


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## PaladinX (Feb 20, 2013)

Ixim said:


> Sell me an EII.
> 
> *I tried to use left/right brain tests, but I'm balanced! *I say that as if it were a bad thing lol. 2 said left balanced(60-40), 2 said right balanced(40-60) and 1 said just balanced(50-50%). Is difficult to determine. According to socio my tendency to emphasize words(you know JUST what I mean  ) is actually a sign of ESI, that is Se.
> 
> edit: Left side would lead to FiNe while right to FiSe. fyi.


That's not surprising.

Left Brain vs. Right: It's a Myth, Research Finds


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## reckful (Jun 19, 2012)

Ixim said:


> Sell me an EII.
> 
> I tried to use left/right brain tests, but I'm balanced! I say that as if it were a bad thing lol. 2 said left balanced(60-40), 2 said right balanced(40-60) and 1 said just balanced(50-50%). Is difficult to determine. According to socio my tendency to emphasize words(you know JUST what I mean  ) is actually a sign of ESI, that is Se.
> 
> ...


You've gotten all the type input you're going to get from me, Ixim — in the near future, anyway. I'm way behind on several other type-me projects at the moment (at another forum), and in any case, I can't stop you from continuing to read bad typology sources and letting them run you off the rails. As far as I'm concerned, the only respectable framing for Jungian/MBTI type is the dichotomy-centric framing that's described in this post and the posts it links to.

Just looking at your latest post, if you think this...



Ixim said:


> I don't care two flying fks if a build in an MMO has the highest dps if it is boring as fk(typically juggling and maintaining 3+ DoTs). Meanwhile, if a build has suboptimal dps but is actually FUN to pull off...yes please!


... would be an uncharacteristic thing for an NFP to say, that's a pretty good sign that you're looking for type insights in the wrong places.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

reckful said:


> You've gotten all the type input you're going to get from me, Ixim — in the near future, anyway. I'm way behind on several other type-me projects at the moment (at another forum), and in any case, I can't stop you from continuing to read bad typology sources and letting them run you off the rails. As far as I'm concerned, the only respectable framing for Jungian/MBTI type is the dichotomy-centric framing that's described in this post and the posts it links to.
> 
> Just looking at your latest post, if you think this...
> ... would be an uncharacteristic thing for an NFP to say, that's a pretty good sign that you're looking for type insights in the wrong places.


Ok, this'll be quick:

Give me examples of N vs S. There's just one way this can end(the more the merrier). Afterwards, we're done.

edit: what you're attacking is MBTI and their "cognitive functions"(balderdash I say!). They are actually poor man's version of Jung's cognitive dimensions but nvm. The answer why INTJs have equally high Ni and Ne and Ti and Te can be found in Socionics, a study that uses Informational Elements, a refined form of Jung's original work. It really makes sense that they have high Ti AND Te because they have both and both are equally powerful(one is just locked behind the bars!). Would Socionics make you believe that there is something more behind Se than you think? Can you even think you could be SEVERELY wrong?

Because what you've been posting through the years just makes sense from the socionic standpoint. And was just what I was always saying: cog fncts and most of typology is utter trash made of some things called "cog fncts" that are jury rigged to match the results. With full obvious answers that are not difficult to answer!

Really, it's either original Jung or Socionics. You have no other choice. Except the obvious which is "meh the balderdash for plebs!", ofc!


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## reckful (Jun 19, 2012)

Ixim said:


> Ok, this'll be quick:
> 
> Give me examples of N vs S. There's just one way this can end(the more the merrier). Afterwards, we're done.


I'll tell you what type you are, Ixim. You're the pesky type. :tongue:

As a reminder, that first post where I gave you type input included a link to this post, which includes (in a spoiler-within-a-spoiler) an "Introduction to S and N" I put together a while back (with quotes from Myers and Keirsey).

Also see this post (from an MBTI Reference thread by @PaladinX), including the spoiler.

And I've put some career results for the four FP types in the spoiler.


* *




The official MBTI folks put out Career Reports that show the popularity for each type of "22 broad occupational categories," based on "a sample of more than 92,000 people in 282 jobs who said they were satisfied with their jobs." The sample included 4,267 INFPs, 3,230 ISFPs, 8,305 ENFPs and 4,321 ESFPs, so it's a very large sample by personality typology standards.

Here are the "Most Attractive Job Families" (scores above 60 out of 100) for INFPs:

*Arts, Design, Entertainment, Sports, and Media* [100]
—Artist, coach, musician, reporter
*Education, Library Sciences, and Training* [75]
—Schoolteacher, librarian, school administrator, university faculty
*Personal Care and Service* [71]
—Lodging manager, personal trainer, hairdresser, child care provider
*Health Care Support* [69]
—Nurse's aide, veterinary assistant, pharmacy aide, physical therapy aide
*Community and Social Services* [68]
—Community service manager, career counselor, clergy, social worker

Here are the "Most Attractive Job Families" (scores above 60) for ISFPs:

*Health Care Support* [100]
—Nurse's aide, veterinary assistant, pharmacy aide, physical therapy aide
*Architecture and Engineering* [91]
—Architect, surveyor, mechanical engineer, chemical engineer
*Food Preparation and Service* [78]
—Chef, food service manager, bartender, host/hostess
*Office and Administrative Support* [78]
—Bank teller, receptionist, clerical services, legal secretary
*Building and Grounds Maintenance* [75]
—Gardener, tree trimmer, housekeeping, lawn service supervisor
*Transportation and Materials Moving* [66]
—Pilot, air traffic controller, driver, freight handler
*Personal Care and Service* [64]
—Lodging manager, personal trainer, hairdresser, child care provider

In 19th place (out of 22) for the ISFPs (with a job satisfaction score of 30) is the Arts, Design, Entertainment, Sports, and Media category.

Here are the "Most Attractive Job Families" (= scores above 60) for ENFPs:

ENFPs
*Personal Care and Service* [100]
—Lodging manager, personal trainer, hairdresser, child care provider
*Arts, Design, Entertainment, Sports, and Media* [91]
—Artist, coach, musician, reporter
*Community and Social Services* [88]
—Community service manager, career counselor, clergy, social worker
*Food Preparation and Service* [87]
—Chef, food service manager, bartender, host/hostess
*Education, Library Sciences, and Training* [87]
—Schoolteacher, librarian, school administrator, university faculty
*Sales and Advertising* [76]
—Sales manager, real estate agent, insurance agent, salesperson
*Health Care Practitioner and Technical Occupations* [67]
—Pediatrician, dentist, physical therapist, lab technician
*Health Care Support* [63]
—Nurse's aide, veterinary assistant, pharmacy aide, physical therapy aide
*Farming, Fishing, and Forestry* [62]
—Rancher, farmer, agricultural inspector, fisher

And here are the "Most Attractive Job Families" for the ESFPs (scores between 60 and 100):

ESFPs
*Health Care Support* [100]
—Nurse's aide, veterinary assistant, pharmacy aide, physical therapy aide
*Food Preparation and Service* [99]
—Chef, food service manager, bartender, host/hostess
*Personal Care and Service* [91]
—Lodging manager, personal trainer, hairdresser, child care provider
*Office and Administrative Support* [70]
—Bank teller, receptionist, clerical services, legal secretary
*Sales and Advertising* [62]
—Sales manager, real estate agent, insurance agent, salesperson
*Building and Grounds Maintenance* [60]
—Gardener, tree trimmer, housekeeping, lawn service supervisor

In 18th place (out of 22) for the ESFPs (with a job satisfaction score of 28) was the Arts, Design, Entertainment, Sports, and Media category.

There's some significant overlap, obviously, but my guess is that if you focus on the differences, you'll conclude that the NFP lists look like a better match for you than the SFP lists.



As another reminder, you chose the N response to 20 out of the 26 items on the official MBTI — which is the only Jung/MBTI-related personality test with any respectable body of psychometric support behind it.

And although I'm not much of an Enneagram fan, I'll also note that the fact that you've tested as _both_ an E9 and an E4 is somewhat more consistent with an NFP type than an SFP type.

As an almost-final note, your somewhat obsessive (too strong a word? I think not) interest in typology and psychological self-analysis is also significantly more characteristic of NFs than SFs.

And as a final note, since you're a Socionics fan: As noted in this post (with quotes from three websites), the Socionics take on the S/N dimension isn't substantially different from the MBTI take when it comes to the concrete/abstract, facts/theory, details/big-picture side of things.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

reckful said:


> I'll tell you what type you are, Ixim. You're the pesky type. :tongue:
> 
> As a reminder, that first post where I gave you type input included a link to this post, which includes (in a spoiler-within-a-spoiler) an "Introduction to S and N" I put together a while back (with quotes from Myers and Keirsey).
> 
> ...


And you don't remind me of NiTe either. You remind me more of TiNe tbh. You sure about that?

Because you really aren't the type "whatever works, as long as it works"(TeNi in whatever order), but rather "which of these options will prove to be correct based on my and select few others understanding? Prove it with science"(TiNe in whatever order) .

But your posts have been helpful. They've only reinforced me against the typical typology. So, thanks for that! And for all the help!


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

And now I'm completely lost. I don't know a thing I am until I experience it in life. Because I've experienced that solitude gives me energy, that's I. But not extreme I, I'm more of an ambivert. Big5's always show that. Also, the very sentence I wrote(I don't know a thing until it hits me) means S. So, that's ISxx. I am not even sure I'm an F anymore because how I don't really care about others. I stated that alongside some other things in that video. Like how I can just drop people when our paths aren't parallel anymore, but start to perpendicularise themselves. How I have dropped a lot of people. And haven't even blinked. Or that is my current bias: that I'm a T instead of an F. So, I can be either ISTJ or ISFJ.

Gosh darn it it's useless!


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Ixim said:


> And now I'm completely lost. I don't know a thing I am until I experience it in life. Because I've experienced that solitude gives me energy, that's I. But not extreme I, I'm more of an ambivert. Big5's always show that. Also, the very sentence I wrote(I don't know a thing until it hits me) means S. So, that's ISxx. I am not even sure I'm an F anymore because how I don't really care about others. I stated that alongside some other things in that video. Like how I can just drop people when our paths aren't parallel anymore, but start to perpendicularise themselves. How I have dropped a lot of people. And haven't even blinked. Or that is my current bias: that I'm a T instead of an F. So, I can be either ISTJ or ISFJ.
> 
> Gosh darn it it's useless!


Stick with Jung's basic definitions:



> Sensation establishes what is actually present, thinking enables us to recognize its meaning, feeling tells us its value, and intuition points to possibilities as to whence it came and whither it is going in a given situation.


Feeling is independent from being caring and empathetic. It's not the same thing, it's more about focusing on the value of objects or situations. Good, bad, fun, nice, jerk, sad, hero, enemy, evil, wrong, funny, immature, pathetic, admirable, detestable, supportive, betrayal, etc. - these are all value-tinged words. None of them are neutral. Feeling types understand reality not as something neutral and impersonal but as having many shades of value.

Thinkers, in contrast, repress this side of reality and view things in a more value-neutral way. Their focus is on understanding the meaning of reality, what things objectively are, how they fit together, and how they can be understood. If Feelers understand emotional, value-based relationships, Thinkers understand logical relationships. 

Sensation focuses on the conscious side of perception and tells us what literally exists and happens. Reality for a Sensor is the sum of everything that actually happens, exactly as it happened. There are four apples on the table. Doesn't matter how they got there, what will happen to them, or what they might symbolize. The leaves on the tree gradually turned red and brown, and then they over time began to fall from the trees. That is what actually happens when the season changes to autumn. Notions of the broader implications of events or where they may be headed are repressed in favor of focusing on what is actually there and can be known for certain.

Intuition perceives the world via the unconscious, and represses the conscious side of perception. A car isn't what it physically appears to be, but is the potential for transportation. A forest isn't just a bunch of trees, it's the concept of nature and everything connected to that concept, such as life, animals, pollution, deforestation, conservation, etc. A domino isn't a rectangular block with some dots on it, it's the beginning of a process that you know is going to happen. If Sensors miss the broader implications and direction of reality, Intuitives miss the facts and can end up jumping to conclusions that are not grounded in reality.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Silveresque said:


> Stick with Jung's basic definitions:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, you're such a lifesaver! Intuition sounds SO ALIEN to me now. Yes, I'd say that a car is a vehicle which is meant to get you from A to G or to show off or even, dare I say it so brazenly, have sex in. But that forest part was...wut moment and my head actually hurt for a bit while reading it. Dominos likewise.

Yeah, I'm an ISFJ in both systems. There are no cognitive functions, there are dichotomies. Very well! Thank you hundred fold!

To you too @_reckful_ ! You allowed me a priceless understanding. No matter what I or anyone else for that matter may be, my mind is corrected now.

And more than anything I'm me and a mere part of me is described via these. Must be 6 that makes me doubt anything, even certain things. Ok call it with the right name. Anxiety. Ok now I know its name. Looks like it's time for a bloodbath! (If I could defeat lazyness and anger...)

edit: Did you choose those words so as to appeal to my Fi(speaking of F part)? Right, wrong, good, evil, traitor, hero, villain...these are the things I understand and live and breathe.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Ixim said:


> Wow, you're such a lifesaver! Intuition sounds SO ALIEN to me now. Yes, I'd say that a car is a vehicle which is meant to get you from A to G or to show off or even, dare I say it so brazenly, have sex in. But that forest part was...wut moment and my head actually hurt for a bit while reading it. Dominos likewise.
> 
> Yeah, I'm an ISFJ in both systems. There are no cognitive functions, there are dichotomies. Very well! Thank you hundred fold!
> 
> ...


Glad to help. There are functions, but they must be rooted in the original definitions of Thinking, Feeling, Sensing, and Intuition. So thinking about possibilities, for instance, isn't Ne unless it also fits Jung's definition of Intuition. You have your ISF dichotomies, _and _you have Fi.

If you want even more confirmation about S/N, check out this thread: http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/545354-what-intuition.html. The posts there made it very clear for me what Intuition actually is about. 



> edit: Did you choose those words so as to appeal to my Fi(speaking of F part)? Right, wrong, good, evil, traitor, hero, villain...these are the things I understand and live and breathe.


Nope. I just chose whatever value-tinged words I could think of at the time, without having Fi or Fe specifically in mind.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Silveresque said:


> Glad to help. There are functions, but they must be rooted in the original definitions of Thinking, Feeling, Sensing, and Intuition. So thinking about possibilities, for instance, isn't Ne unless it also fits Jung's definition of Intuition. You have your ISF dichotomies, _and _you have Fi.
> 
> If you want even more confirmation about S/N, check out this thread: http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/545354-what-intuition.html. The posts there made it very clear for me what Intuition actually is about.
> 
> ...


Is just that every description of MBTI ISFJ I read is almost the exact same as the description of Socio ISFj. One is SiFe and the other is FiSe, but the definitions of those functions are REALLY different, to the point that I begun thinking that Si(m) = Se(s) and Se(m) = Si(s). And that just shifts the whole spectrum. I don't care. If it walks like a duck, if it talks like a duck and it looks like a duck, it must be a duck. Ie: ISFJ = ISFj, I don't care.

edit: about N: with every passing example in that thread, my head hurts more and more. It is whence the item came from and where it's going to? wut? Is that some trick of Tzeentch? I mean...really...wut?


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

People place _way too much _importance on this typology stuff. And, by the way, if you have "faith" to lose then you probably should stop believing, especially when some systems (MBTI, Enneagram) are unsupported by academia and psychology at large.


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## Gentleman (Jun 14, 2014)

emberfly said:


> Are you an ISTJ?


I don't know. If you accept that types can change over time, I'm an IXTJ according to MBTI dichotomies. If you don't accept that types can change over time, I'm an ENFP according to MBTI dichotomies. According to function theory, I could be any of the sixteen types depending on which flavor you prefer. There's no empirical basis for the functions, so no one has any ground to stand on. There is no accepted "correct" definition for Si. I could look up Si and get a million different definitions from different sources, and none of them have grounds to prove the others incorrect, because none of them are based on empiricism. The beginning of wisdom is the definition of terms, and function theory is unable to define its terms.

To be honest I'm really unintelligent, so I don't know what to believe. If function theory is valid, I can't understand it. With MBTI dichotomies I have certainty.


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## Simpson17866 (Dec 3, 2014)

Gentleman said:


> There's no empirical basis for the functions, so no one has any ground to stand on. There is no accepted "correct" definition for Si. I could look up Si and get a million different definitions from different sources, and none of them have grounds to prove the others incorrect, because none of them are based on empiricism. The beginning of wisdom is the definition of terms, and function theory is unable to define its terms.


 Fair enough.


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## ShadowsRunner (Apr 24, 2013)

Hey, the enneagram and MBTI, has probably been one of the most helpful tools for self development I've ever come across. 

Nothing is perfect, but as it stands for that alone, I think it's pretty beneficial and helpful.

Thanks to the system, I have become a more balanced, knowledgeable, healthier, and less biased person to be around. I can say truthfully now that I don't freaking hate myself, and I can actually understand and appreciate my differences, and see how those are just as important and beneficial to society as any other trait. It's okay to be a dreamer, and idealist, a feeler, even as a male, and to not be completely be ashamed of myself, to not question and worry endlessly because I daydream so often, because I have such an abstract non-linear way of thinking, that...I'm not spoiled, or a misery hag; I simply am an idealist, an being an 'idealist' can at times be very tiring and difficult, but it makes it all the more gratifying in the end. 

Thanks to these personality systems of development, I don't spend hours worrying what the hell is wrong with me, I really don't. That's worth more then I can ever say and I feel so eternally grateful for that, and all the wonderful insightful posters here, who have helped paved the way to find answers to the questions of personal self development.


Also, it may not be "officially recognized" but it's because it's not entirely negative and stigmatizing of human nature. The MBTI puts people into boxes? hey, look how big the god damn DSM is, and tell me that's a bad thing.


Oh, the big Five. On a scale of 1-10, you're a neurotic loser, hate yourself.


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## TheOddRhombus (Jul 30, 2014)

I am as well...


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## westlose (Oct 9, 2014)

Truth doesn't exist. 

Our vision and perception is blurry and subjective. Objectivity is just a mix of several subjective point of view. That's ridiculous. 

Losing faith in typology? I already lost faith in everything. Even my own existence and conscience. 

But there's no choice. Instead of being stuck in existentialism, skepticism or nihilism : Everybody should keep going forward. 
There are no choices, decisions, or path. We just have to trust ourselves and progress.

We will never reach perfection.
We will never reach truth.

But we can just move closer from them. Being complete has no meaning. Progress is fun. The end isn't.
Stay constructive, don't let your fear or vanity makes you think that you are right.

Nobody, nothing is right or wrong. The most important thing is to get the part of right, and progress all together, to a better world and individuality.


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