# Why doesn't any girl like me??



## TheExpert (May 20, 2021)

Why doesn't any girl like me I've been nice, I have a good job, and I'm in good shape; I'm such a sexy handsome bastard. I'm literally my best bro buddy, So why the fuck, is it always just me when no other girl wants to get out with me? 

I'm 29 years old man, have been a virgin my entire life, and am lonely. But it's not like I did nothing, I've been dating my whole life trying different meet ups and methodologies, but I never got a girlfriend and I'm not sure how much longer I can go on like this. So, what do I do now? 

I see all the guys with their girlfriends, so why is it just me, why is it always just me, I'm probably the rare guys who's involuntary celibate. 

When you're not gorgeous enough, life is a drag. When you're just average. Girls have a plethora of alternatives, including on tinder.

You see it every day... 

You know you can't fit in.
People, happy people, happy couple, happy children, happy home. 

And you are not even at the 'people' level.

I mean what the fuk is that? Existing as a weirdo, a recluse, a modern leper..the unknown dog that steals food in dead of night and who is only known as a ghost

A mirage of a person, an unfinished statue, a mound of clay sculpture abandoned by the potter..

Shall I go on, and on about the woes of existence of people never asked to exist, never needed to exist, they walk as ghosts in daylight, they will never know love.

One day death comes and you're confronted with - that's it? This is what it was about? A much of nothing?

Will I go on and on about the hardships of existence of people who were never requested to exist, who were never required to exist, who walk around like ghosts in the sunshine, who will never know love?

When death strikes, you're faced with the question: "Is that it?" Is that what it was all about? Is it possible to have too much of nothing?


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## Ewok City (Sep 21, 2020)

Trust me, being single has its own perks. 

Personally I feel that I'm much happier being alone. When I eventually decide to settle down, I think I'm fine with arranged marriages. I don't think I'll actively search for "true love" because a relationship is more about commitment rather than passion.


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## ENFPathetic (Apr 3, 2018)

Stop feeling sorry for yourself. You have one of two options. Lower your standards, or up your game.

Learn how to make women comfortable in your company. Take good care of your house. Especially your bathroom. You can never underestimate how nasty we can be as dudes. Women smell and see things we don't notice. Take a look in the mirror. Make sure your clothes are clean and that you are smelling good and feeling fresh. Take good care of your skin. If you don't have a sense of style, talk to a professional stylist about what you can do to improve your image. You can be naturally handsome but if you don't know how to dress, you still look like shit.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

TheExpert said:


> Why doesn't any girl like me I've been nice, I have a good job, and I'm in good shape; I'm such a sexy handsome bastard. I'm literally my best bro buddy, So why the fuck, is it always just me when no other girl wants to get out with me?
> 
> I'm 29 years old man, have been a virgin my entire life, and am lonely. But it's not like I did nothing, I've been dating my whole life trying different meet ups and methodologies, but I never got a girlfriend and I'm not sure how much longer I can go on like this. So, what do I do now?
> 
> ...


Obvs troll.


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## X10E8 (Apr 28, 2021)

TheExpert said:


> Why doesn't any girl like me I've been nice, I have a good job, and I'm in good shape; I'm such a sexy handsome bastard. I'm literally my best bro buddy, So why the fuck, is it always just me when no other girl wants to get out with me?
> 
> I'm 29 years old man, have been a virgin my entire life, and am lonely. But it's not like I did nothing, I've been dating my whole life trying different meet ups and methodologies, but I never got a girlfriend and I'm not sure how much longer I can go on like this. So, what do I do now?
> 
> ...


I know you're having a hard time, so maybe you should stop the self beating and simply enjoy being single. Women can detect whether or not they like you by looking at your face and body. It's half hereditary and half under your control; you can't alter the genetic parts of yourself, such as how you look or your body type. You can, however, continue to increase your fitness, health, and intelligence.

A humans life is about becoming the best version of themself, it's not about finding a partner. Just enjoy your singlehood while you wait. Being single can be pretty epic, you'll eventually develop a backbone and get used to it. All the best!


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## Falling Leaves (Aug 18, 2011)

Really, there are several approaches to dating:

(1) Net fishing: Trying to get as many fishes as quickly as possible, regardless of what they are. 
(2) Harpoon fishing: Proactively going for a fish only once you have a rough idea of what it might be. 
(3) Line fishing: Waiting patiently for the right kind of fishes to come to you. 
(4) White while fishing: You have one kind of fish in mind and that fish you are going to catch, ignoring the others.

Any of the above are valid, but each has their downsides. The latter two are less frustrating, but can lead to longer stretches of singledom. The first two approaches means putting yourself out there, saying yes to as many dates as possible, and being open minded. Did your tinder date spend a wee bit too long going on about pilates or something? Look past that and arrange date #2. Accept most things will fizzle out after date #1. Nevermind when this happens; you have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find your prince(ss). 

...of course, the downside to this is that it is a loooot of time and energy. You have to be willing to work on yourself. Develop your 'soft' social skills such as starting and maintaining conversations, active listening, and empathy. Be realistic about your own appearance and what can be improved - unless you are a model for Calvin Klein or something, there will be something (posture, simple though it seems, can do wonders for how attractive people find you). Self-improvement should be a constant in your life, by the way - honestly, the biggest red flag in your post was how you introduced yourself. Apparently, you are already 'the perfect guy'. I sincerely doubt that, sorry.

Be okay with rejection. Learn to like yourself truly and honestly. Go into dates with the mindset you are going to get to learn about someone fun, interesting, and unique, not find a fuck buddy, your next girlfriend, or the love of your life. I can't promise it will lead to anything, but neither will sitting on your hands and acting like the world is the problem: the world is the world, it is going to keep turning regardless of how lonely you feel.


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## BigApplePi (Dec 1, 2011)

TheExpert said:


> Why doesn't ...


I read your post. Something is missing about what you said. Did you reach out? If you don't reach out, it's harder to make contact.


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## peemybed (Mar 4, 2021)

Dont ask me y girls wont date me

Sent from my SM-A015A using Tapatalk


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

TheExpert said:


> Why doesn't any girl like me I've been nice, I have a good job, and I'm in good shape; I'm such a sexy handsome bastard. I'm literally my best bro buddy, So why the fuck, is it always just me when no other girl wants to get out with me?
> 
> I'm 29 years old man, have been a virgin my entire life, and am lonely. But it's not like I did nothing, I've been dating my whole life trying different meet ups and methodologies, but I never got a girlfriend and I'm not sure how much longer I can go on like this. So, what do I do now?
> 
> ...


You went from "I'm literally my best bro buddy" to "Existing as a weirdo, a recluse, a modern leper..the unknown dog that steals food in dead of night and who is only known as a ghost", I'm pretty sure you'er not your best bro buddy.

Ok, so you are nice, good looking and have a good job. That seems pretty, basic. Not what would make you unattractive, but not what would make you attractive either. I mean good looks is good, but you have to have more than good looks going on for you.

And you started with "I've been nice", maybe that's the problem. You are just nice, you don't have other things going for you except being nice and looks. Being nice is basically, "I'm not mean" which is not much to go with, it's good that you're not mean but it's like saying my quality that makes me a good cook is that I have 2 hands. You need to have something to make you stand out, either be caring, be fun, be cool. Don't be this platonic nice guy who's only quality is being nice like a robot. Being nice is good, but being nice alone won't cut it, because it's basically just "don't be mean, be polite and respectful" which is not much to go on.

Now, I understand that a guy has to be assertive, fun and assured to be attractive. Because niceness alone won't cut it. Yes, you may be a nice guy, but if you go in a random room, out of 50 people there are at least 20 nice people and that's a conservative estimate. You're not special for being nice, sure, being nice is good, but you have to have more things going on for you than just being nice if you want to be attractive.

On the other hand, I don't subscribe to the "bad boys" or "alpha males" idea of an ideal man. Yes, being nice is not enough because everyone can be just nice. But being a jerk or an asshole is worse than being nice. First of all, it's immoral in principle, so even if it would work I don't like it, because you fundamentally have to change the way you are in order to be an "bad boy" or "alpha male" which I find repulisve, and it's not like a positive improvement, being a "bad boy" or "alpha male" is negative in so many ways.

Second, I don't think that's how it works. Not all women are attracted to bad boys or alpha males, women have different standards just like men have different standards, and the women who are attracted to bad boys or alpha males, are not attracted to their jerkish and inconsiderate behavior itself, but other qualities that they happen to have: confidence, leadership, guts. They have something else to offer in spite of their inconsiderate behavior. The being a jerk part is a tolerated not the main attribute. Also, most but not all bad boys, are not bad with the woman they want to hook up with, they are bad with other people around them.

Often times, bad boys start out as being very sweet and delicate with women around them, it's not like a girl is going to be attracted by a man essentially being like "hey you dumb face, go on a date with me", no, they are usually very tender and delicate with them, even saying "hey babe", "hey love", while talking about how they so don't care about this chick with the boys. Why is that? which to be noted, is completely contradictory to the average "bad boy" or "alpha male" lessons. Which usually tell you to be a bit of a jerk, a bit cruel or aggressive to make the girl like you. Yet here we have a bad boy doing the complete opposite, here we have a bad boy that is treating the girl very well. It's like this guy took lessons from the nice guys.

Well, there was a study which has shown that men are more likely than women to like about the depths of their feelings for them, the depths of their emotions for them, the depths of their care, in order to be with a woman. Isn't this great show of depths of their feelings for them exactly what is traditionally considered a wussy or needy behavior exactly by the people teaching "macho man", "bad boy" or "alpha male" stuff? If you escalate from "0, I don't know you" to "I love you to the sun" that's probably going to come across as needy, but it's the escalation itself that feels weird as it comes out of nowhere, not the depths of their feelings themselves. If you would have taken time to build with a girl a relationship, talk to her a few times, then ask her for a date, then go on a few more dates, then ask her to be your girlfriend, that "I love you to the sun" wouldn't be needy anymore and actually apreciated. So women actually like a man who shows depths of their feelings for them, shocking, I know. Actually, it is shocking because of all this bad advice that doing so would be simping or needy or whatever.

Anyway, that wasn't completely the case with this guy, he wasn't even on a date with her, he didn't say "I love you to the sun" but he said "hey babe", "hey love", "yes my love" which doesn't seem or doesn't look as exaggerated/scaled as "I love you to the sun" but given their interactions, if he would have said that, I don't think she would have objected. So this guy was very tender and delicate with her despite deep down not caring about her, treating her well, not playing "hard to get" or pretending to be indifferent, if anything he exaggerated his love, so why would it work for this guy but for others lead to the friendzone? In my opinion, first of all, despite actually not caring about her deep down, this guy was very real with her, he didn't go for pick-up lines or other superficial stuff that seem cringe, he had a decent approach, he approached her as an individual, as a separate person he needs to interact with while showing care and interest, rather than an ATM or Soda Machine where you insert the pick-up line and the ressult is the girl. In spite of his bad boy, he didn't objectify women emotionally, only physically, which I could say it's a plus.

But second, he had other qualities, looks, humor, etc. Maybe things in common too but I didn't notice. And his humor was often made by exaggerating things about a person or situation not related to either of them, so it couldn't have been offensive, and when it was about her it was about something that she doesn't care about or it's momentarily, like it wasn't something offensive. He wasn't this platonic guy whose only quality was being nice. Even he way he talked to her and treated her, with care, is attractive, because he didn't objectify her emotionally and treated her like a separate person he needs to interact with while showing care and interest. When you say nice, it just means not mean, so saying "I'm a nice guy" is really not saying much, it's like saying "I'm an average guy", sure that's cool but it's like not great not terrible, it's great that you're not mean but it's like saying your quality that makes you a good runner is that you have legs. You need to have something to make you stand out, and the thing that made this guy stand out, was shockingly, his level of care, which almost universally every "bad boy" or "alpha male" coach tells you it's bad, and then we have this bad boy doing the exact opposite.

Third, on the original list, stress. If you aren't naturally a "bad boy" or "alpha male" you're going to have a hard time being comfortable being or pretending to be a "bad boy" or "alpha male" to get the girls. You will have all these expectations of what are you supposed to be and how are you supposed to behave that you just can't live up to, making you more stressed and insecure and miserable in return. And perhaps, isn't it a bit shallow to think that women only want one type of man? I mean men have different standards, men know that about men, why can't women have different standards as well? attract with who you are rather than trying to be an "alpha male" or "bad boy". If you are fundamentally a good natured person, be a good natured person. Just be natural, let it flow.

Foruth, curel and aggressive = repulisve. Do people in general like cruel and aggressive individals? It depends on the context, in a crimial syndicate yes they would, they are very necessary for everyday business, in normal real life? no, they wouldn't. People don't like aggressive or cruel individuals in general. People like people who are decent and know how to behave with others. People like people that are fundamentally good people. People like people that talk nicely to others and approach people nicely and would rather settle a dispute through words than fights. People like people that are good members of society, men and women included.

All this "alpha male" and "bad boy" advice has some minor good things, like have an attitude "I want to have a great time with this person" rather than "I hope I won't mess it up", but essentially it's 90% bad and 10% good so you might as well avoid it all together. If the "alpha male" and "bad boy" are bad, what to do then? be aperson with an okay character and try to make yourself look good. I think the recipe of success in life is: looking good. It makes you feel better, it makes you be more confident, equipped with an okay character, not bragger, not jerk, not with guts. Regardless of how you are born, you can always work on your looks by working out and trying to maintain yourself healthy, live a healthy life.

You don't need to be a fighter, you don't need to be a warrior, you can be fundamentally a kind person. Not all women want an alpha male, women don't only go for bad boys. And the women who go for these people, I'm sorry for them, they are essentially no better than the guys who think that they can't get girls because they are just so nice but really are just kind of platonic rather than the caring treat you like a human being, an individual person with thoughts and desires, a separate person you need to interact with while showing care and interest, type of nice, they are just not mean, which is not much to go on, they don't have any other qualities to back themselves up with. As for the women who go for bad boys, isn't it obvious that if someone is bad with people around you, eventually he will be bad with you? Yes, it kind of is.

You don't need to be an alpha or a matcho man, women just want a caring and comfortable relationship, just like men do. They are humans, treat them like humans, the other gender isn't a whole new country. What do I mean with treat them like humans? treat them with care and assume they are good natured. But also, just like humans, assume they will act in their best interest and you need to offer something of value for them to want to be in a relationship with you, you don't need to be an asshole, you just need to a good guy who treats them with care and has something to offer in terms of having fun, having a chill time together. You can be caring and fun.

And be lighthearted, this will make them feel comfortable around you. A person that others can pull up the laces with, that others can afford familiarities with. A person that doesn't judge and shows that doesn't judge. I don't recommend doing it at a job or in a formal setting, but outside the job in a group of friends on when you're talking one-on-one, you can pull up the laces with with them and talk to them as equals. Being lighthearted makes people more comfortable around you, knowing that they are free to be themselves around you, it also shows that you are in good relations, that you're at least a good friend, for you can't afford familiarities with everybody.

Be the kind of person that you can talk anything with, that people can feel they can talk anything with, that is non-judgmental and your first reaction is of support. The kind of person that people can feel free to share what is bothering them with, for they know you will support them and won't invalidate their feelings, telling them they are not supposed to feel a certain way, whatever they are feeling, they are right. The real question is what are you doing from there, or whether they are looking just for comfort or a solution to their problem. Sometimes people don't want a solution, they just want emotional support. If you show that you won't agree with certain behaviors, they won't upen up themselves to you out of fear or being rejected or parented, given a lesson when they are most vulnerable.


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## BigApplePi (Dec 1, 2011)

Here is a nice gent:


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

Well im an incel so i have the best advice. 

You gotta stop masturbating. 

Start yoga. 

Take care of your chakras. 

And study your energy. 

Thats your ticket. Make sure your energy is good and bam you meet a girl. Easy.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

TheExpert said:


> Why doesn't any girl like me I've been nice, I have a good job, and I'm in good shape; I'm such a sexy handsome bastard. I'm literally my best bro buddy, So why the fuck, is it always just me when no other girl wants to get out with me?
> 
> I'm 29 years old man, have been a virgin my entire life, and am lonely. But it's not like I did nothing, I've been dating my whole life trying different meet ups and methodologies, but I never got a girlfriend and I'm not sure how much longer I can go on like this. So, what do I do now?
> 
> ...


Where is @Iloveshopping? 









It frustrates me that no men might want to date me or...


Because I might be rated to be really really really really really really really really really really really below ! 0/10 or I'm a 1/10 on the beauty scale.




www.personalitycafe.com


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## Iloveshopping (Jul 10, 2018)

tanstaafl28 said:


> Where is @Iloveshopping?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why did I get mentioned in this question?


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Iloveshopping said:


> Why did I get mentioned in this question?


Read the OP. He's looking for a girlfriend.


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## Queen of Cups (Feb 26, 2010)

Iloveshopping said:


> Why did I get mentioned in this question?


He wants a girlfriend, you want a boyfriend.

1+1= y’all hook up


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## TheExpert (May 20, 2021)

*Well that was fun, I loved all your answers! I just needed to know some female perspectives. *


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## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

ENFPathetic said:


> Stop feeling sorry for yourself. You have one of two options. Lower your standards, or up your game.
> 
> Learn how to make women comfortable in your company. Take good care of your house. Especially your bathroom. You can never underestimate how nasty we can be as dudes. Women smell and see things we don't notice. Take a look in the mirror. Make sure your clothes are clean and that you are smelling good and feeling fresh. Take good care of your skin. If you don't have a sense of style, talk to a professional stylist about what you can do to improve your image. You can be naturally handsome but if you don't know how to dress, you still look like shit.


I've seen some of my female friends' bathrooms and they're just as bad.....


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## sandras (Jul 8, 2018)

No worries, I like you, don't worry.


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## sandras (Jul 8, 2018)

I have the same problems like you, bro.


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## TheExpert (May 20, 2021)

sandras said:


> No worries, I like you, don't worry.





sandras said:


> I have the same problems like you, bro.


So you, like me, have yet to find a girlfriend. I've noticed a lot of folks refer to me as bro here; I'm not sure if they mean it positively or mockingly.


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## INTJ_Artist (Aug 19, 2021)

WickerDeer said:


> I agree with you that people should be moral.
> 
> But this sounds more like magical thinking to me.
> 
> ...


It’s been my experience that immoral people may be initially attracted to me, but that if I express my morality most of them will get confused or upset and leave. The more vindictive sort might seek to cause long-term trouble, but they usually trip over the fruits of their own vices before they can do much damage.

Maybe that’s attributable to my strong will and childhood experience growing up with sociopaths and psychotics. As a result, I have absolutely no patience for delusional thinking and will call it out when I see it.


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## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

INTJ_Artist said:


> It’s been my experience that immoral people may be initially attracted to me, but that if I express my morality most of them will get confused or upset and leave. The more vindictive sort might seek to cause long-term trouble, but they usually trip over the fruits of their own vices before they can do much damage.
> 
> Maybe that’s attributable to my strong will and childhood experience growing up with sociopaths and psychotics. As a result, I have absolutely no patience for delusional thinking and will call it out when I see it.


Were you raised by a narcissistic mother and a narcissistic father?


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

mia-me said:


> Perhaps to summarize this, shared values are important for long-term relationship health and hypocrisy of such, destroys trust and respect, hence destroys the relationship? The reason I've summarized it in this manner is that there are plenty of 'ethical' systems where it's ethical for men to cheat but women get stoned for doing the same.


Yes...I agree with you. I think shared values are super important for a relationship as well as shared goals for life. This is important if you treat your partner like an equal, which I think is part of any healthy relationship. Both people's values, goals, and wants need to be prioritized.

My comment was more about how parasitic people tend to be attracted to non-parasitic ones for obvious reasons. Because two parasites have a hard time exploiting each other.

@INTJ_Artist thanks for explaining.

Yeah, it makes sense. 

It's interesting to consider the sort of negative side of morality--the rejection and repulsion. 

I had an old head of school who used to talk about the importance of the...repulsion. Of the boundaries and defending the boundaries. Because he had come from somewhere where corruption was rampant and good people found themselves in bad places if they weren't careful not to reject most offers.

I don't think he had a word for it, but the concept being just what we do not allow in our lives, what we do not accept--it could be offers or situations or people. Usually they will present themselves deceptively as well, but it's important to be able to keep them out.

Assertiveness, boundaries, disagreeableness all sort of fall into this skill category, maybe? Of rejection? Being accepting and nurturing, but not of that which is destructive. 

Sort of reminds me of what um...the paradox of tolerance. That a society that is tolerant of the intolerant will quickly become overtaken by the intolerant groups and the tolerance will be destroyed. And so a society must be intolerant of intolerance. 






Paradox of tolerance - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





What do you say to someone to show them your morality that rejects them? Negative judgments? Intolerance? An intolerant attitude? If you feel like sharing.


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## INTJ_Artist (Aug 19, 2021)

mia-me said:


> Since morals are subjective, everyone's immoral to some or greater degree, reliant on how divergent their morality frameworks might be. Also, the more strict the framework, the greater the rebellion, often in a covert manner. Examples would be preacher's daughter and Japanese culture.


Boiled down to it’s core, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.’ sums morality up pretty well.

I once said that to a woman who turned out to be a psychopath and she was literally unable to understand it’s meaning. Mind you, this was a woman who blackmailed her boyfriend (a friend of mine) into having a child together by repeatedly getting pregnant and aborting until he gave in. Fortunately for her, I didn‘t find out about that until I’d moved across the country.


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## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

WickerDeer said:


> Yes...I agree with you. I think shared values are super important for a relationship as well as shared goals for life. This is important if you treat your partner like an equal, which I think is part of any healthy relationship. Both people's values, goals, and wants need to be prioritized.


To parse this further, it would depend on how people perceive relationships. Some seek lifelong relationships only, others seek varying levels of relationships (however things play out whether with or without expiry dates) and others don't seek relationships. For people who seek lifelong relationships, shared values and goals are key. Wants can be compromised whenever necessary and within reason, to maintain relationship health. Equal partnerships can also be highly subjective since in traditional relationships, men lead and women support. That's not an equal relationship.



> My comment was more about how parasitic people tend to be attracted to non-parasitic ones for obvious reasons. Because two parasites have a hard time exploiting each other.


Sure. Look to NPD/BPD relationships. They're common because the NPDer has a neverending narc supply and the BPDer's needs are met because they feel needed, hence don't have to fear abandonment. But then, is this really a parasitic relationship or a symbiotic one?

I sit ambivalent to strong opinions of right/wrong, healthy/unhealthy relationships, moreso, look to preferences and compatibility. Often, people simply don't understand or appreciate their partner's language of love, hence feel underappreciated and unloved, even though their partner was screaming their love and appreciation in a different language.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

mia-me said:


> To parse this further, it would depend on how people perceive relationships. Some seek lifelong relationships only, others seek varying levels of relationships (however things play out whether with or without expiry dates) and others don't seek relationships. For people who seek lifelong relationships, shared values and goals are key. Wants can be compromised whenever necessary and within reason, to maintain relationship health. Equal partnerships can also be highly subjective since in traditional relationships, men lead and women support. That's not an equal relationship.
> 
> Sure. Look to NPD/BPD relationships. They're common because the NPDer has a neverending narc supply and the BPDer's needs are met because they feel needed, hence don't have to fear abandonment. But then, is this really a parasitic relationship or a symbiotic one?
> 
> I sit ambivalent to strong opinions of right/wrong, healthy/unhealthy relationships, moreso, look to preferences and compatibility. Often, people simply don't understand or appreciate their partner's language of love, hence feel underappreciated and unloved, even though their partner was screaming their love and appreciation in a different language.


I agree with everything you said.

I don't ever feel comfortable thinking that someone wants to be abused. I think there's such a thing as consensual stuff...like with the bdsm community. 
But it's so often that abusive people justify their abuse or they try to claim that their partner wants to be abused, that I cannot ever stand behind an assertion like that. I think usually there are complex mechanisms at play that probably started far before the person ever had agency (like in their childhood). 

But I've began to wonder about the way that certain types do seem to combine more often. Someone with poor boundaries who is very empathetic with someone who is very selfish, not empathetic at all, and kind of mean. 

I've been wondering if it's more of a Jungian shadow thing or an anima/animus thing in some way too (or if that's a more productive way of looking at it than chicks like bad boyz), because perhaps the agreeable person pushes their disagreeableness so much into the shadow that she ends up with a partner that is disagreeable to sort of balance out her own lack of it.

I think that it'd be good for most people who lack boundaries, especially if it's something they struggle with and hurts them a lot, to try integrating some of that disagreeableness. 

To in a way learn to be more selfish (from the selfish animus), learn to be more firm with what they want, learn to be more disagreeable when it is necessary. 

And then the disagreeable selfish person can perhaps learn to be a little less selfish, a little more focused on their affect on others and the value of harmony for others sake, and stuff like that.

I guess to me, the way I'd define an NPD person's relationship as non-parasitic is if they are moving towards being less destructive or harmful to themselves and others. Is the relationship leading to positive development of both people or is it leading to the destruction of the non-NPD partner?

Sort of like how psychologists consider whether something's a mental illness by the amount of harm or disruption it causes. 

If an NPD can be in a healthy, productive relationship that will ultimately benefit themselves, their partner, and the world--then yeah that's great. But it's also probably a lot of work. And I don't know how common that is. I think it's more common that one partner gets conditioned by abuse to stay in an unhealthy relationship via something like stockholm or other mechanisms like financial dependence or staying together for the kids. etc. It's not perfect, but I guess how bad it is depends on the level of harm.

But I don't really know--I don't and I am far from a relationship expert.

I usually don't use terms like morality or immorality because they do carry such different meanings for others, but I will still sometimes use unfamiliar terms in order to bridge understanding with another person. I think it's good to be ambivilent, but I still have a very strong sense of right/wrong, but I also agree with you that a lot of times it could be a matter of compatibility.

My ex seems to have something like NPD or BPD and our relationship was terrible, though somehow we can be friends so long as we don't have the romantic aspect (which we don't--it's gone from my side for sure), but he has a much more productive and healthy relationship with his girlfriend after me, because she is older (his age) perhaps, and she has very firm boundaries and is a little less impulsive, so she is extremely consistent with reinforcing her boundaries and just gently slamming the door to his poor behavior, and he improved a lot with her and she seems to also make sure that she is benefiting and the relationship is mutual. Then there is also the aspect that sometimes just leaving someone teaches them a very painful but serious lesson about how their choices have consequences, which can also lead to healthy development.


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## INTJ_Artist (Aug 19, 2021)

mia-me said:


> Were you raised by a narcissistic mother and a narcissistic father?


Bipolar narcissist psychotic INFP mother (dropped three stories onto her forehead as a child) who literally thought she was Jesus until the day she died. An MRI late in life showed that she had almost no blood flow to her prefrontal cortex.

My ISTJ father, a closet homosexual, was too weak-willed to end the relationship when he should have, and too delusional to realize Mom wasn’t going to ever ”see the light“ and suddenly turn into a clone of his doting, narcissist mother. He was also a hoarder as bad or worse than anything you’ve seen on that show.

Both were extreme introverts who knew nothing at all useful about interpersonal relations. I had no childhood friends within a two-block radius of my house because our immediate neighbors shunned us. When I turned 30, I found out from my equally insane aunt that my parents’ marriage had been arranged by my grandmothers.

That I turned out sane was a miracle. An only child, I somehow ended up with the best attributes of each parent, and was spared the worst. It took me a decade to throw off that baggage and another to shed the last of the anger, but I did. More than that, I’ve prospered far beyond what child-me could ever have hoped to dream.


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## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

WickerDeer said:


> I agree with everything you said.
> 
> I don't ever feel comfortable thinking that someone wants to be abused. I think there's such a thing as consensual stuff...like with the bdsm community.
> But it's so often that abusive people justify their abuse or they try to claim that their partner wants to be abused, that I cannot ever stand behind an assertion like that. I think usually there are complex mechanisms at play that probably started far before the person ever had agency (like in their childhood).
> ...


I'm not a relationship expert either, moreso spitballing since there are so many exceptions to every attempt to define because emotions aren't rational. Either way, thanks for your interesting thoughts.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

mia-me said:


> I'm not a relationship expert either, moreso spitballing since there are so many exceptions to every attempt to define because emotions aren't rational. Either way, thanks for your interesting thoughts.


I find it refreshing how you don't approach it in terms of morality or right/wrong...at least in an obtuse way? I get the sense that you are still operating with a strong ethical system, based on what you have talked about with rejection, with consent and accepting diversity in people's preferences (with who they are compatible with), and the non-judgmental attitude along with what (to me seems like) firm convictions is refreshing.

So thanks for your thoughts and comments too!

lol I feel like that's the soundtrack of my (love) life. haha


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## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

WickerDeer said:


> I find it refreshing how you don't approach it in terms of morality or right/wrong...at least in an obtuse way? I get the sense that you are still operating with a strong ethical system, based on what you have talked about with rejection, with consent and accepting diversity in people's preferences (with who they are compatible with), and the non-judgmental attitude along with what (to me seems like) firm convictions is refreshing.
> 
> So thanks for your thoughts and comments too!
> 
> lol I feel like that's the soundtrack of my (love) life. haha


You see me so clearly, in an almost scary but comforting way. It's why I open up to you and not to others since you neither see me as an angel or demon from a lack of understanding of the foundation of my perspectives. 

Same, lol.


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## Mark R (Dec 23, 2015)

We are having a crisis of masculinity in this culture. It is a lost skill that needs to be rediscovered. Women and men require many of the same things from each other. However, many requirements are different. It is nice to have similarities and differences. Sharing common interests, values, and attraction for each other is important for a couple. As far as differences, everyone has blind spots, so each in a couple should have a different set of strengths and weaknesses. There are also differences generated by being male or female. A man does want a fertile woman who is kind and nurturing and supports his goals.

A woman wants to feel safety, presence, love, and loyalty from her man. She also wants to be confident that the man is pursuing his purpose and will provide for her. Each woman has unique subjective criteria for deciding whether a man giving her what she wants from him. When a man is fulfilling each of these needs for her, she respects and loves him.

These biological differences may be obscured by society, leaving people, especially men confused. We are expected to fulfill both the fashion of the day and basic biological drives. These are often in conflict with one another.


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## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

Mark R said:


> We are having a crisis of masculinity in this culture. It is a lost skill that needs to be rediscovered. Women and men require many of the same things from each other. However, many requirements are different. It is nice to have similarities and differences. Sharing common interests, values, and attraction for each other is important for a couple. As far as differences, everyone has blind spots, so each in a couple should have a different set of strengths and weaknesses. There are also differences generated by being male or female. A man does want a fertile woman who is kind and nurturing and supports his goals.
> 
> A woman wants to feel safety, presence, love, and loyalty from her man. She also wants to be confident that the man is pursuing his purpose and will provide for her. Each woman has unique subjective criteria for deciding whether a man giving her what she wants from him. When a man is fulfilling each of these needs for her, she respects and loves him.
> 
> These biological differences may be obscured by society, leaving people, especially men confused. We are expected to fulfill both the fashion of the day and basic biological drives. These are often in conflict with one another.


Apparently, men can't think on their own and must be told what to do and how to be, and need mothers to give them unconditional love and support or they're lost? Hello?


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## INTJ_Artist (Aug 19, 2021)

WickerDeer said:


> I had an old head of school who used to talk about the importance of the...repulsion. Of the boundaries and defending the boundaries. Because he had come from somewhere where corruption was rampant and good people found themselves in bad places if they weren't careful not to reject most offers.
> 
> I don't think he had a word for it, but the concept being just what we do not allow in our lives, what we do not accept--it could be offers or situations or people. Usually they will present themselves deceptively as well, but it's important to be able to keep them out.
> 
> ...


My morals come out in the way I talk, the way I treat people in general, the way that I treat people who disappoint me at work (unless they insult me, I will go out of my way to help them succeed) and when I describe some of the choices I’ve made in life. 

An example… I am an technical expert in my field, and I received a phone call one day from a businessman who wanted to develop a technology that would ”improve the reaction time of police officers in an emergency”. Which, after I read his proposal, was obviously meant to improve the speed and accuracy of police officers drawing and firing their weapons. This proposal was backed by a prominent US Senator, and I was promised any amount of money that I asked for to set up the lab.

This was right after the 7/7 bombings in Britain, where an innocent young man was held down and shot in the head multiple times (standard OP for suicide bombers) because he was brown and had jumped a subway turnstile to catch a train. He was completely innocent.

It was then, and still is my conviction that police do not need to be taught to shoot faster, but to think more clearly in a crisis. So I turned down that offer and wrote the businessman an email explaining why. In the hope that I might make him think about the potential consequences of his greed. He never replied.

Now… When I tell that story to most people, the usual reaction is “Why on earth would you turn down an offer like that? You’re nuts!” But my father-in-law, an Ex Military Police Colonel, understood it immediately. So did my wife. So do my church friends.

The kind of person who would jump at that offer would be ruled by greed and the fear that they would never get another chance like that. But I had faith that I would one day get a much better offer from a business selling a morally decent product. And guess what? I have.


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## INTJ_Artist (Aug 19, 2021)

mia-me said:


> Apparently, men can't think on their own and must be told what to do and how to be, and need mothers to give them unconditional love and support or they're lost? Hello?


Do you expect boys to grow up and know math without being taught? How about the mechanics, purpose, and potential mental/disease hazards of sex? Should that be kept from them?

We teach boys not to bully, how to dress appropriately, how to clean up after themselves, and ideally how to cook. So why wouldn‘t we teach them how to properly and appropriately approach a woman? Or how to find a moral woman amongst all of their potential choices to marry? Should they have to waste a decade of their life figuring it out and falling blindly into bad relationships because they weren’t taught the best practices of courtship?

I’m teaching my young sons how to talk to and approach women. It takes time and practice. I build their confidence by giving them challenges such as “Make that girl who always insults you laugh.” Here’s some things you might try… And when it finally happens they come home and hug me tightly in thanks.

Why start doing this at 11 or 12? Not because I want them hooking up, but because by the time they’re men I want them to have no fear of rejection. So that they don’t marry the wrong woman out of fear that they won’t find another (like my father did). So that their families will prosper and be peaceful. Instead of the hellscape of madness and useless screaming that I grew up in.


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## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

INTJ_Artist said:


> Do you expect boys to grow up and know math without being taught? How about the mechanics, purpose, and potential mental/disease hazards of sex? Should that be kept from them?
> 
> We teach boys not to bully, how to dress appropriately, how to clean up after themselves, and ideally how to cook. So why wouldn‘t we teach them how to properly and appropriately approach a woman? Or how to find a moral woman amongst all of their potential choices to marry? Should they have to waste a decade of their life figuring it out and falling blindly into bad relationships because they weren’t taught the best practices of courtship?
> 
> ...


If boys need to be socialized to their gender roles, how much stock should be put into something that's non-instinctual?


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## INTJ_Artist (Aug 19, 2021)

mia-me said:


> If boys need to be socialized to their gender roles, how much stock should be put into something that's non-instinctual?


Perhaps you might want to read “Lord of the Flies” for a sober take on how boys, left to their instincts would behave.

Civilizations, and their social mores exist for a reason. Instincts are for animals, and we should aim to be better than that.


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## X10E8 (Apr 28, 2021)

INTJ_Artist said:


> Perhaps you might want to read “Lord of the Flies” for a sober take on how boys, left to their instincts would behave.
> 
> Civilizations, and their social mores exist for a reason. Instincts are for animals, and we should aim to be better than that.


Sort of, some men are naturally masculine some men are naturally genetically feminine. Feminine men are fun too.


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## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

INTJ_Artist said:


> Perhaps you might want to read “Lord of the Flies” for a sober take on how boys, left to their instincts would behave.


Evidently, fiction explains reality? Masculinity and femininity are also fictional concepts.



> Civilizations, and their social mores exist for a reason. Instincts are for animals, and we should aim to be better than that.


If humans want to improve, we need to shuck the yoke of limiting fabrications.


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

Interesting thread this has developed into considering the OP has apparently been banned since posting this. lol I would say don't have unattainably high standards and to be happy with the one you are with. My wife and I actually married at a fairly young age so it took me a few years to appreciate her and our relationship for what it is, positives, negatives and all. 

Try not to do that.  The getting married too young and underappreciating your SO.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

INTJ_Artist said:


> My morals come out in the way I talk, the way I treat people in general, the way that I treat people who disappoint me at work (unless they insult me, I will go out of my way to help them succeed) and when I describe some of the choices I’ve made in life.
> 
> An example… I am an technical expert in my field, and I received a phone call one day from a businessman who wanted to develop a technology that would ”improve the reaction time of police officers in an emergency”. Which, after I read his proposal, was obviously meant to improve the speed and accuracy of police officers drawing and firing their weapons. This proposal was backed by a prominent US Senator, and I was promised any amount of money that I asked for to set up the lab.
> 
> ...


That's great--I'm glad that you did what you felt was morally right. I probably would have discussed it and thought about it more, but I'm not in your field (unless your field has to do with pre-school children or english literature which it kinda sounds like it doesn't). 

It would be nice to discuss it with police officers too and see what they say (not corrupt police-unions) about what would help them work better. I feel like there are probably decent officers who would have some criticism that mirrored with your concerns. 

Like one officer got fired after he didn't shoot someone, and instead de-escalated the situation using training he'd had in the military, verbally.

The whole police violence thing is such a huge complex issue. I don't know the details but I will take your word for it that the project was not really needed, but was inspired by getting more profits. That sounds like a good example of what my old head-of-school was talking about. Turning down shady projects, though yours sounded legal--he had come from living in a South American country where there was a lot of corruption and people would end up knee deep in some terrible organization without even knowing, and as a head-of-school his primary responsibility is to the children, but it put him in difficult situations at times, I guess...probably...especially since there isn't money in schools, so perhaps they end up sometimes needing economic support...I wasn't quite clear on everything he talked about, but he was trying to verbalize a concept about morality...that you really must be wary, because even if you intend good (like to do your job, to help, to nurture etc.) if you end up doing it for the wrong people you could be sort of entrapped into a dangerous situation.

His example was about a pilot or something--he'd worked hard his whole life to fly and he finally got his business going, but then someone asked him to carry some cargo and things didn't seem to add up...and it was all fine on the outside, but he had a bad feeling about it and so he didn't do it. That kind of thing.

Perhaps it was because the old school I worked at got bought by a crazy person...who seemed to have a lot of shady dealings and it didn't threaten the children outside of that we all stopped getting our paychecks on time and she stopped paying rent and we were worried we wouldn't have the resources to take care of the children sometimes too...but that is a chronic problem with early childhood education in the US, because it's almost all private. So there's constantly this lack of support for what teachers and facilities actually need, yet the stakes are so high because kids are arguably the most important asset a society has (I would argue children are some of the most important and valuable of all).

Sometimes I see parallels between early childhood education and the police force, except that police are far better supported than most preschool teachers or childcare professionals. Even though in my opinion, children are extremely important and so is work with them, just as police work is. But when you have a chronically overburdened institution you start facing more ethical dilemmas, and society has to own those even if it doesn't want to.

When I say the police are better supported, I do mean it, but I also think there are problems within the institution, and I think police are still unsupported in that they are expected to do the work that other institutions should be stepping in to help with (that we would have to fund with tax money), such as mental health services, homelessness, and influences that affect crime. But because we as a society do not address those underlying causes of police work, it's just left to them and they have guns to solve all the problems, which should really only be used for some when there are better solutions for others.


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