# I completed the survey :)



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Hello, 

I'm pretty sure I know my types, but I filled out the questionaire because I do like introspection and self-exploration - I also thought it was an interesting exercise. 

Feedback is definitely welcome; I hope I didn't come off as too kooky.

*0. Is there anything that may affect the way you answer the questions? For example, a stressful time, mental illness, medications, special life circumstances? Other useful information includes sex, age, and current state of mind.
*
27 years old, Female, sad. On medication, but it shouldn't affect me, really, it's just a day to day anti-depressant. If anything, it should make me happier. I guess it isn't working. I've never been diagnosed as having a mental illness other than adjustment disorder - although I've only seen a therapist a few times.

*1. Click on this link: Flickr: Explore! Look at the random photo for about 30 seconds. Copy and paste it here, and write about your impression of it.
*
_*Photo: *_
Menhires | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
_*Impression:*_
It's lonely. It reminds me of standing in a group but feeling alone, and how far apart people really are. There's a vast space out there and we're supposedly close together, but we don't really see each other. The "holes" are like eyes, staring off into the distance for something else that they want and don't have.

*2. You are with a group of people in a car, heading to a different town to see your favourite band/artist/musician. Suddenly, the car breaks down for an unknown reason in the middle of nowhere. What are your initial thoughts? What are your outward reactions?
*
_*Outward:*_ Worry, fear, disappointment. I'd probably bite my lip or look off a lot with a very contemplative expression on my face.
_*Inward: *_I'd try to come up with a solution in a practical way, but also be brooding over the fact that we just missed a wonderful opportunity. I'd be trying not to cry or to get too ahead of myself, but fail because I always think the worst.

*3. You somehow make it to the concert. The driver wants to go to the afterparty that was announced (and assure you they won't drink so they can drive back later). How do you feel about this party? What do you do?
*
I would feel tired and not really like I want to go at all. I'd dread having to put up an appearance for another few hours and wish the night were over so I could sleep, be alone, and truly relax. I'd make sure the driver was coming back at a reasonable time so I wouldn't feel stuck at the party, but I would still be extremely uncomfortable with the idea of not being able to leave if/when I wanted to. I'd try to politely decline, but if I were with a best friend or an SO and they got upset with me, I'd be swayed to put up with it. But we'd have to compromise about the time.

*4. On the drive back, your friends are talking. A friend makes a claim that clashes with your current beliefs. What is your inward reaction? What do you outwardly say?
*
I would try to respect her feelings, but I'd gently state my own opinion without being mean and/or rude about her point of view. I know I get upset if someone undercuts how I feel about something, so I wouldn't want to do the same thing to someone else.

*5. What would you do if you actually saw/experienced something that clashes with your previous beliefs, experiences, and habits?
*
It would be difficult. It depends on what it was. I would probably break down in tears if I were forced to be in the middle of an anti-gay protest. I think I would even be a little afraid. Something that drastic is a little difficult to understand, and too close to my heart to compromise. If it were something that was just different from what I was used to, I would find it interesting to learn about something new; I consider myself to be generally open-minded about things as long as my own feelings are not tread upon.

*6. What are some of your most important values? How did you come about determining them? How can they change?*

My most important values involve understanding and acceptance of other people for who they are. I think this comes from the desire to have the same thing given to me, even though I don't get it (a lot of the time). I grew up in a household where I was encouraged not to be "dramatic" or emotional, so my feelings were so strong and always bottled up inside. I spent hours brooding over them without a real outlet but imaginary friends. I played a lot of "acting games" and indulged in unhealthy fantasy. It seemed like it was too intense, too out of proportion with the real world. It still feels like that sometimes. I think that if I can be tolerant of other people, then it will make others be tolerant of what's intrinsically wrong with me... whatever it is. I'm often afraid I have a mood disorder of some sort, in fact I'm sure I do, but I haven't been able to pinpoint it. I want acceptance, so I give it. 

*7. a) What about your personality most distinguishes you from everyone else? b) If you could change one thing about you personality, what would it be? Why?
*
If I could change one thing about my personality, it would be the tendancy to get overwhelmed by sadness. Sometimes I feel like it cripples me, and half the time I don't know why. I don't want to be one of those people that takes things for granted, and yet I do it constantly. Then I hate myself for it. I don't know how to change, and I desperately want to. It's like my flaws are in the mirror, and I'm forever staring into it and unable to see what's around me, the bright lights in my life. Then they go out, and I blame myself. 

I feel like a great gulf separates me from everyone else. I feel like I lack a lot of things most people have, like ambition, drive, a social instinct. I see other successful people and feel sad and a little envious, but at the same time I accept that I'm just never going to be that way.

*8. How do you treat hunches or gut feelings? In what situations are they most often triggered?
*
I listen to them. They're often triggered in arguments, when my feelings are hurt and my instinct is to shut down. I draw away and either cry/apologize/compromise in order to keep myself from being hurt any further than I already have been. I shut out anything that brings me pain, because there's already so much of it to deal with.

*9. a) What activities energize you most? b) What activities drain you most? Why?
*
_*Energizes me: *_Reading. I can get into a fantasy world so easily, and sometimes I feel like it's more real than my own. In the past few years, I've finally been able to have my own live. Previous to that, I lived entirely in fantasy worlds of my creation and ignored everything else. I knew it was unhealthy, but it gave me stimulation and strength, and I loved them. I felt passion and creativity fill me every time I dabbled in these imaginary worlds. They were unhealthy addictions - a rush, but draining in the long run. I feel like activities that energize me also drain me, emotionally. Long talks with my SO energize me, especially if they're regarding emotions/our relationship/things of that nature. I suppose I'm a romantic fantasist.
_*Drains me: *_Every day activities, it seems. Going to the store. Going to birthday party. It feels mundane and false, like I'm going through the motions but the lights upstairs are dimmed. My expressions are automatic. Mechanic.

*10. What do you repress about your outward behavior or internal thought process when around others? Why*?

Everything. If I showed what I felt all the time people would think I was completely crazy. I generally don't discuss what comes into my mind, or I think I would feel even more ostracized than I already do. I end up not speaking at all, and then people think I'm shy - which I am, in a way, but I'm really just thinking so much that I can't quite participate in the conversation without distracting myself from things I find more interesting. I can't really get engaged in real life conversation unless it's on a deep topic, or a novel, or with my SO, or something else I'm passionate about. Otherwise, I'm always repressing something or other. I don't want to overwhelm strangers - or give them a glimpse into my private life and thoughts. I give that to so few people (online it's much easier - I can hide behind a computer screen) that I wouldn't even know how to go about talking openly to people I barely know in person.


----------



## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

@Snow White I have just read down to question 2 right now, but have you considered ENFP?
You seem to have a really strong Ne and not much of inferior Te (thinking of your reaction on question 2)

http://personalitycafe.com/infp-articles/76770-recognizing-inferior-function-ifps.html
http://personalitycafe.com/enfp-articles/76803-recognizing-inferior-function-enfps.html


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> @_Snow White_ I have just read down to question 2 right now, but have you considered ENFP?
> You seem to have a really strong Ne and not much of inferior Te (thinking of your reaction on question 2)
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/infp-articles/76770-recognizing-inferior-function-ifps.html
> http://personalitycafe.com/enfp-articles/76803-recognizing-inferior-function-enfps.html



I actually haven't considered ENFP. I can see some similarities, but I feel a little less engaged with the world than I always perceived ENFPs to be - I'm affected by others' opinions, though, so there is a sensitivity to it. It's a more, "I feel their pain and they hurt me" sort of effect, so I retreat. The one thing is that I don't see the world in an optimistic way, like many ENFPs (though I imagine not all) seem to. I don't like it... I find it an intimidating place to be, and yet I want to be in it, and so I resent it, and I stay to myself.

It's difficult to figure out. It's as though my focus is the outside world but not at the same time. I see it as separate from my own world. I don't trust the people in it. I feel like an "other".


----------



## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Snow White said:


> I actually haven't considered ENFP. I can see some similarities, but I feel a little less engaged with the world than I always perceived ENFPs to be - I'm affected by others' opinions, though, so there is a sensitivity to it. It's a more, "I feel their pain and they hurt me" sort of effect, so I retreat. The one thing is that I don't see the world in an optimistic way, like many ENFPs (though I imagine not all) seem to. I don't like it... I find it an intimidating place to be, and yet I want to be in it, and so I resent it, and I stay to myself.
> 
> It's difficult to figure out. It's as though my focus is the outside world but not at the same time. I see it as separate from my own world. I don't trust the people in it. I feel like an "other".


Indeed, I noticed that you are quite subtle with your beliefs (thus I didn't consider IFP as especially likely since they basically base their world-view on their values)

Right now I just got 1 other type that comes to mind.
http://personalitycafe.com/infj-forum-protectors/76894-recognizing-inferior-function-infj.html
Also, the way you answered me sounded a bit like inferior Se

I could post links to all the descriptions if you feel that none of the ones I've shown you describe you.

EDIT/NOTE: Do not think about how you relate to people of the type, but how you relate to the descriptions of the inferior functions. (I personally for example find many people in the INFJ groups to be jerks)


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> Indeed, I noticed that you are quite subtle with your beliefs (thus I didn't consider IFP as especially likely since they basically base their world-view on their values)
> 
> Right now I just got 1 other type that comes to mind.
> http://personalitycafe.com/infj-forum-protectors/76894-recognizing-inferior-function-infj.html
> ...


My values are important to me, but I suppose I'm wrapped up in so many things that values can be a little smoky - I guess I indulge frequently in the gray area, so it's difficult for me to have a core sense of values (or really a core sense of self). It's like I'm made of smoke.

Thank you for the links. I've considered INFJ, too. But I've heard their type is rare and I don't want to think I'm _too _special.

EDIT: The only thing about INFJs I come into conflict with is that I don't express myself forcefully, at least not in person. I seem "barely there", and people often see me as a wallflower. I'm very easily overlooked.


----------



## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Snow White said:


> My values are important to me, but I suppose I'm wrapped up in so many things that values can be a little smoky - I guess I indulge frequently in the gray area, so it's difficult for me to have a core sense of values (or really a core sense of self). It's like I'm made of smoke.
> 
> Thank you for the links. I've considered INFJ, too. But I've heard their type is rare and I don't want to think I'm _too _special.
> 
> EDIT: The only thing about INFJs I come into conflict with is that I don't express myself forcefully, at least not in person. I seem "barely there", and people often see me as a wallflower. I'm very easily overlooked.





> I've considered INFJ, too. But I've heard their type is rare and I don't want to think I'm _too _special.


Same argument someone else used >_> *points at myself*
The statistics were made in a university on 3 000 students (or something around there), so I doubt it's accurate.



> EDIT: The only thing about INFJs I come into conflict with is that I don't express myself forcefully, at least not in person. I seem "barely there", and people often see me as a wallflower. I'm very easily overlooked.


What do you mean with "The only thing about INFJs I come into conflict with is that I don't express myself forcefully"? We really don't especially not in person.
I need to really focus to be forceful and I usually fail miserably anyways.
I was gonna scare a few girls who never shut the door at the school's dining area to the room in which we were sitting (making it considerably louder in the room). She felt so bad about my attempt that we became friends.

But anyways, it won't help you to compare with other people.
I am INFJ in MBTI
INFp in socionics (highest correlation with MBTI INFJ)
RLOAI in Big 5 (highest correlation with MBTI INFJ)
And I'm a phobic 6w5
And you don't necessarily need to be much alike me to be INFJ.


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

@_Acerbusvenator_ - Regarding your edit, I'll try not to be affected by others who identify as INFJs. I don't think I know any in person, and I haven't frequented the ones here. I'm still relatively new, so I'm feeling my way around warily. I've been to many hostile discussion groups (not personality cafe) surrounding different personality theories, and I feel a little bruised by them, so I'm trying to stay in "safe" areas for now.

I bolded parts I related to and italicized the parts I didn't so much.

*The spiritual, sometimes mystical, bent of Introverted Intuitive types has been frequently noted.At the very least, they seem to be aware of subtle cues or nuances long before others notice them. INFJs are especially sensitive to unexpressed anger and conflict, whose presence is usually denied by others.This contributes to the sense of separateness from others that many Introverted Intuitive types report, which may lead them to doubt their own mental stability.

*_INTJs and INFJs very much want to be recognized and appreciated for their contributions at work, but they may not receive such appreciation. Co-workers may misperceive their desire for autonomy and their single-minded concentration as arrogant and controlling. They may be seen as overly critical and hard to please. Their typical long-range vision can also be an obstacle if others at work do not trust the Introverted Intuitive type’s ability to accomplish his or her often complex and interconnected objectives. However, in environments that support the needs and talents of Introverted Intuitive types, others readily recognize, appreciate, and encourage their devotion to excellence and accomplishment.

_*At work I'm seen as quiet, not all there, and not especially ambitious or cut-throat when it comes to being pro-active. I don't think I'm seen as arrogant - or at least I hope I'm not. I feel sad when my accomplishments are overlooked and underappreciated, but I don't typically feel like my ideas are the best ones. I have a lot of self-doubt and I think that comes across in my work. (Hee, it's funny, just now a co-worker approached me asking a question and I had to reply with a bunch of, "I don't know"s because I don't feel confident enough to give an answer that direct without supervisor approval).

*One INTJ especially enjoys and appreciates sunshine in spring, autumn, and winter. Another likes to “go somewhere beautiful—mountains, ocean, water.” INFJs often mention the pleasant luxury of taking an afternoon nap. Other Introverted Intuitive types describe craving very hot curries, or escaping by becoming totally absorbed in a mystery or adventure novel.“Escape literature” seems to be a particularly effective way for Introverted Intuitive types to suspend their intense inner focus and vicariously enjoy adventures in the external environment.

Introverted Intuitive types mention going for walks or drives and noticing interesting details, such as the shapes of houses, the designs on garage doors, the arrangements of trees and flower beds in parks. One INFJ described taking walks by himself and noticing how many different shades of green he could identify on a nature trail, or closing his eyes and trying to identify as many different sounds as he could.

*_Of the four dominant Introverted types, it is Introverted Intuitive types who most frequently mention “too much extraverting” as a common trigger for inferior function responses.They describe being provoked by such things as crowds; people overload; noisy, busy environments; feeling that their personal space is being invaded; and frequent interruptions. When faced with such provocations, they retreat inside themselves and become intolerant of intrusions by others.They either express irritation at people’s questions or do not respond at all to attempts to communicate with them.

_*This is partly true and partly not. I do become overwhelmed by those extraverting factors, but I don't become outwardly irritated, I just get this hazy look in my eyes. Sometimes I don't really answer, but I don't do it in a rude way (or I try not to - answering minimally and then going back to what I was focusing on).

_INTJs in particular are intolerant of and impatient with inefficiency and with others’ avoidance of problems.They like to get to the heart of an issue immediately, which sometimes makes others uncomfortable. An INTJ finds it stressful “when there are multiple ‘agendas’ at play so that there is no sense of purpose or direction about an issue that may be a legitimate problem.” She added, “I don’t suffer fools or foolishness well. I like to focus on real issues.” 

_*I'm very passive in my workplace. I'm a little more patient with ideas I don't understand, accepting them as valid to that person and trying to work my own way around them. I respect the feelings' of others and how they feel, because I hold my own feelings so personally and importantly.

_An INFJ described her obsessiveness and withdrawal from her usual interests this way:“I stew about what’s going on. I can’t sit still and am restless. I am mentally fatigued and find myself compulsively putting things in order and trying to control everything around me.” 
_
*I do stew, but I become lazy and almost immobile, lost in misery and fatique and not sure how to cope or what to do. I don't try to control or be controlled, I just exist, and my mind becomes my safehaven.

*For Introverted Intuitive types in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, the immediate reality of the outer world spells difficulty and danger.They expect obstacles and problems to plague them as they move through a strange and potentially hostile environment.


*_Anticipating the worst can often elicit anger and blame in INTJs and INFJs. “I’m moody and gloomy, with sudden deep anger,” said an INTJ. An INFJ also describes experiencing deep anger: “I am emotionally aroused and am terribly critical of others. I accuse people of never helping me. I become dogmatic and blast people with facts. If no one is around to attack, I write a scathing letter to someone.”Another said,“I internally check off all the events that happened leading up to the ‘conflict’ and then I verbalize this list with a sense that the impeccable logic of it will convince others I am right and I will be vindicated.”

_*Anticipating the worst usually leads me sad and hopeless, not really... angry. I just feel like a failure and internalize it as my own fault rather than the fault of anyone else, or anything else.

*INTJs typically just want to be left alone.They need to give themselves the time to recover, often finding that accomplishing a simple, nonthreatening Sensing task is beneficial. Sometimes removing all stimulation helps the most. One INTJ said that after too much sensory stimulation and too much people-dealing what she does is “lie in bed with earplugs and a pillow over my head—remove all stimuli—often even fifteen minutes of this is enough.”An INFJ said that when stressed, she wants the room to be dark to eliminate external sensory stimulation.

All types engage in self-criticism at some point during or after an episode of the inferior function.However, the focus of that criticism varies according to type. Introverted Intuitive types are especially hard on themselves, later viewing their obsessive concerns or angry intensity as a sign of unacceptable personal imperfections. 

*
_Expressions of understanding, sympathy, and empathy aid the return of equilibrium for some, but usually not for all Introverted Intuitive types. INTJs may find it embarrassing to have others recognize their “weaknesses,” or may find such expressions condescending. 

_*I don't find it condescending... I long for it. 

Those were all the main points that stuck out for me.  I hope this helped. Thank you for your time and interest.


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> Same argument someone else used >_> *points at myself*
> The statistics were made in a university on 3 000 students (or something around there), so I doubt it's accurate.
> 
> 
> ...


I would never doubt someone else's self-typing. I hate it when people try to convince someone that they aren't what they "think you are", and I very much appreciate how helpful you've been in this thread. You haven't made me feel threatened or hurt my sense of self at all, and I am very grateful for that.

Once I read that INFJs have a different style of speaking than INFPs that are a little more self-assured. A direct, "Hand me that milk" rather than, "could you possibly get the milk?" I do the second - I suppose that's what I meant by "forceful", but I understand it doesn't have to be that way. It was just a theory I saw somewhere else and happened to be reiterarated somewhere in the link you showed me.

If I'm annoyed by something I usually attempt to just block it out (noise, outside distractions, ect.), and if that doesn't work than I retreat and find somewhere else to go without even letting on that I have an issue.

I haven't tried the socionics. Do you have a link where that test might be available? Same with Big 5. I haven't heard of those things, I'd like to study them more in depth. 

As far as enneagram, I consider myself to be a 4w5. However, I find that there are many similarities between 4s, 6s, and 9s - so it doesn't surprise me that you're a 6, especially because your wing is 5 (like mine).


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

I think inferior N is more likely for you. This response seems to very much elicit inferior N, Ne in particular:



> _*Inward: *_I'd try to come up with a solution in a practical way, but also be brooding over the fact that we just missed a wonderful opportunity. I'd be trying not to cry or to get too ahead of myself, but fail *because I always think the worst.*


So you always expect the worst? Doesn't sound like strong Ne use to me. 

This answer here also seems to elicit more towards Fe than Fi:


> I would feel tired and not really like I want to go at all. I'd dread having to put up an appearance for another few hours and wish the night were over so I could sleep, be alone, and truly relax. I'd make sure the driver was coming back at a reasonable time so I wouldn't feel stuck at the party, but I would still be extremely uncomfortable with the idea of not being able to leave if/when I wanted to.* I'd try to politely decline, but if I were with a best friend or an SO and they got upset with me, I'd be swayed to put up with it. But we'd have to compromise about the time.*





> I would try to respect her feelings, but I'd gently state my own opinion without being mean and/or rude about her point of view. I know I get upset if someone undercuts how I feel about something, so I wouldn't want to do the same thing to someone else.


Again, this seems more Fe-ish than Fi-ish.


> It would be difficult. It depends on what it was. I would probably break down in tears if I were forced to be in the middle of an anti-gay protest. *I think I would even be a little afraid. Something that drastic is a little difficult to understand, and too close to my heart to compromise.* If it were something that was just different from what I was used to, I would find it interesting to learn about something new; I consider myself to be generally open-minded about things as long as my own feelings are not tread upon.


Something about this doesn't say Fi to me but seems to lean more towards Fe. Another thing I wish to point out is that you have troubles dealing with drastic chances in your life and have difficulty understanding them. It seems to again point towards inferior Ne. 



> My most important values involve understanding and acceptance of other people for who they are. I think this comes from the desire to have the same thing given to me, even though I don't get it (a lot of the time). I grew up in a household where I was encouraged not to be "dramatic" or emotional, so my feelings were so strong and always bottled up inside. I spent hours brooding over them without a real outlet but imaginary friends. I played a lot of "acting games" and indulged in unhealthy fantasy. It seemed like it was too intense, too out of proportion with the real world. It still feels like that sometimes. I think that if I can be tolerant of other people, then it will make others be tolerant of what's intrinsically wrong with me... whatever it is. I'm often afraid I have a mood disorder of some sort, in fact I'm sure I do, but I haven't been able to pinpoint it. I want acceptance, so I give it.


Are you certain about being sx dominant over so dominant? Your overall behavior and thinking seems to point much more strongly towards 4 so core than 4 sx core. 



> If I could change one thing about my personality, it would be the tendancy to get overwhelmed by sadness. Sometimes I feel like it cripples me, and half the time I don't know why. I don't want to be one of those people that takes things for granted, and yet I do it constantly. Then I hate myself for it. *I don't know how to change, and I desperately want to*. It's like my flaws are in the mirror, and* I'm forever staring into it and unable to see what's around me, the bright lights in my life.* Then they go out, and I blame myself.


Aside the overwhelming 4-ness of this response (so again moreso than sx), I get a hint of inferior Ne here llike how you desire change but cannot achieve it and how you want to stop take things for granted but you keep doing it. There's also a part where you mention that you are unable to see things around you that could be interpreted as an inability to interact more with an objective perceiving function, such as Ne. Nardi for example describes good Ne use this way:



Dario Nardi said:


> 23. Engage life's magical moments and meaningful coincidences as they happen.


Seems like this is what you are looking for?



> I listen to them. They're often triggered in arguments, when my feelings are hurt and my instinct is to shut down. I draw away and either cry/apologize/compromise in order to keep myself from being hurt any further than I already have been. I shut out anything that brings me pain, because there's already so much of it to deal with.


So much focus on how others make you feel but I see less focus on how you feel. I really don't think you are a Ji dominant either way. 



> _*Energizes me: *_Reading. I can get into a fantasy world so easily, and sometimes I feel like it's more real than my own. In the past few years, I've finally been able to have my own live. Previous to that, I lived entirely in fantasy worlds of my creation and ignored everything else. I knew it was unhealthy, but it gave me stimulation and strength, and I loved them. I felt passion and creativity fill me every time I dabbled in these imaginary worlds. They were unhealthy addictions - a rush, but draining in the long run. I feel like activities that energize me also drain me, emotionally. Long talks with my SO energize me, especially if they're regarding emotions/our relationship/things of that nature. I suppose I'm a romantic fantasist.


I see a strong tendency towards 9 in this response but also in some others. 

There's a slight hint of Ti in here. Hard to pinpoint exactly what is, but it's towards the end.



> _*Drains me: *_Every day activities, it seems. Going to the store. Going to birthday party. It feels mundane and false, like I'm going through the motions but the lights upstairs are dimmed. My expressions are automatic. Mechanic.


Here comes the Ti.



> Everything. If I showed what I felt all the time people would think I was completely crazy. I generally don't discuss what comes into my mind, or I think I would feel even more ostracized than I already do. I end up not speaking at all, and then people think I'm shy - which I am, in a way, but I'm really just thinking so much that I can't quite participate in the conversation without distracting myself from things I find more interesting. I can't really get engaged in real life conversation unless it's on a deep topic, or a novel, or with my SO, or something else I'm passionate about. Otherwise, I'm always repressing something or other.* I don't want to overwhelm strangers - or give them a glimpse into my private life and thoughts.* I give that to so few people (online it's much easier - I can hide behind a computer screen) that I wouldn't even know how to go about talking openly to people I barely know in person.


This sentence strikes me very much as Fe. Concerned about what others feel and how others will perceive you, not so much about how you see yourself or how you reason internally.

I would say you are probably more likely an ISFJ or INFJ based on what I've read from you. It's logical that you would confuse yourself for an INFP as 4 is a very ego-centered enneagram type and most 4s are Fi doms. I really don't get any INFP vibe from you though, not at all.


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

LeaT said:


> I would say you are probably more likely an ISFJ or INFJ based on what I've read from you. It's logical that you would confuse yourself for an INFP as 4 is a very ego-centered enneagram type and most 4s are Fi doms. I really don't get any INFP vibe from you though, not at all.


I will definitely look more into INFJ and ISFJ. INF always seems to be definite, it's the J and P that are interchangable for me. Those two types are difficult for me to come to terms with in regards to which one fits me.

As far as the instincts go with the enneagram, I always thought myself to be an soc-last, despite my preoccupation on others and how they feel. I suppose I always likened this to being sensitive to emotions and insecure about myself. I have a hard time thinking about society as a whole when it comes to my own actions, or the "greater good". I'm affected by the world (in the sense of feeling alienated from it) but separate from society, and I tend to neglect most things in my life that aren't of immediate concern if I'm involved in a passionate, consuming situation. 

My reasons for putting sx-first have to do with my self-destructive behaviors geared toward stimulation. Because I don't find it in people, I will seek out an intense "addiction" that excites me and makes me feel energized (because nothing else seems to do that). I get a very narrow scope of focus when it comes to what stirs me. Whatever holds my passion regains all my attention, to the detriment of everything else in my life. When something stirred me, it consumed me. Writing consumed me. Fantasy consumed me. My SO (now) consumes me. When I've had friends, it's always one of them that consumes me to the point where I become co-dependent on them and need them in order to function. If somethin changes, I must latch onto something else to get that next "high" and to continue feeling alive, rather than an impotent, lackluster life. I can't stand mundane. I can't stand social outings or the falseness of everyday contact. I need something new, different, and when it ceases to hold my interest or excite me, I take it to unhealthy levels in order to maintain that strong emotional attachment. Love, especially, takes me to this height. There's nothing like falling in love and being unsure about what's going to happen, completely ungrounded and utterly consumed by a soulmate. 

There are some 9 tendancies in my personality, I've noticed, but I lack what they're so good at - removing myself from conflict and emotion. I'm so in touch with my emotional responses and responses in others. I feel like drama follows me wherever I go.

sx/soc might be more apt than sx/sp...

EDIT:

I found some descriptions and there are a few I'm looking more at:

sx/soc - This is the type that exudes the most raw charisma and sexual energy. *They may identify so strongly with whatever they're involved with that they often become the symbol of its core essence, *and sometimes its lead agent for change. Hardly content with the status quo, this subvariant seeks to alter the fundamental structure of something while at once embodying it's purest or most extreme form. *Possibly attracted to radical views on politics, philosophy, spirituality or creativity that reflect their penchant for testing boundaries.* They enjoy pushing other's buttons, especially those resistant to their modes of expression. *It's not uncommon for them to have a pet social, political or spiritual cause which they're able to support with heartfelt conviction. May exploit and seek to redefine sexuality to reflect their own colorful and uncertain understanding of it. While prone to exhibitionism, they are strongly attracted to grounding influences which can anchor them and provide stability. Failure to satisfy an especially intense desire for connection may cause this subvariant to spite others at the risk of jeopardizing the need for an equal, stabilizing force. Can feel pulled between wanting a life of maximum intensity and reassuring episodes of peaceful convention.

*Motivation: to impact others, *question assumptions*, challenge convention.
Familiar roles: provocateur, activist, exhibitionish

sx/sp - *This is perhaps the most internally conflicted of the stackings, and potentially the most inconsistent in behavior. This may occur as a blockage of the sexual instinct which can be redirected as a more generally brooding and troubled personality. They may isolate themselves for long periods of time before reemerging. *They live according to a strictly personal outlook and are not particularly concerned with the approval of others *outside of their immediate concern (this is questionable, and often conflicted)*. *They seem to be searching for something, the missing piece. If they find a soulmate they will unite without fanfare, forming a secret bond, dealing with formalities as an afterthought. Powerful sexual impulses facing inner resistance may manifest symbolically in the psyche, giving way to soulful interpretations of the unconscious. Under periods of stress severe sexual tensions may manifest as erratic, impulsively destructive behavior. Can seem restless, torn between the comforts of a stable home life and the urge to wander. May be prone to self-medicating.

Motivation: to know the heart, reconcile inner conflict, form a secure union.
Familiar roles: the devotee, the seeker, the wanderer


*soc/sp - This type is often the most comfortable in group settings, but tends to be a bit formal and awkward in one to one relations. This is the natural political type, affiliating themselves with groups or theories which best defend their social and material interests. They may lack warmth and individual identity and this could lead to problems in forming meaningful relationships outside of a shared social interest. The motivation for this type is to attain status within their chosen sphere - the "social climber."
Examples of soc/sp: Hillary Clinton, Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Ted Nugent

soc/sx - This type has very strong one to one social skills, but is usually *uncomfortable in group settings*. They enjoy cultivating multiple relationships, and can be intensely involved when in the presence of someone they are interested in, but have difficulty sustaining these bonds when apart. This may give the impression of being flighty and rootless, *willing to adapt and mirror others in order to connect, but lacking a defined approach that would give their relationships a more solid standing*. *They may have political interests, but are generally more pragmatic and less partisan than the other social variant.* They are often attuned to pop culture and the latest trends. *This type's motivation is to create lasting connections with those they are interested in - the "best friend."

*sp/soc - This type is generally *private and reserved*, and especially serious and practical minded in their focus to gain material security and in making useful connections that support their goals. When they do form a connection, *loyalty is very important to them and they will not hesitate to end a relationship on grounds of disloyalty*. This type may lack a certain degree of interpersonal warmth which can give the impression of coldness or disinterest in others, even a sense of selfishness. May be drawn to groups that attract like minded individuals, as in business clubs or volunteer organizations where a shared professional culture can facilitate social bonds. They tend to live conservatively and dress in an inconspicuously appropriate fashion befitting their status in life. May have a characteristically blunt and direct style of communication that can take others some getting used to. They are particularly strong in matters of commitment and sacrifice, and enjoy being the benefactors in assisting society's practical needs.

Motivation: to attain a position of material and societal security.
Familiar Roles: the businessperson, the responsible citizen, the pillar of society.



I bolded what I related to.


----------



## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

You sound NF: extremely imaginative. You were an emotional child, forced to tone it down: high F. You sound more introverted than extroverted. So, INFx. You sound more Fi and Ne than Ni and Fe. Fi has a terrible time doing anything in conflict with personal values, and with Ne it tends to be very imaginative. Overall you sound INFP to me so that's my guess. Additionally, INFPs are some of the rare introverts who would hate going to the concert afterparty but would feel obligated to socialize the whole time (not sit in the corner, not wait in the car, not take a cab home, etc.)

I'm seeing Fi all over the place, but if I'm seeing it wrong, then maybe INFJ would be another possibility. I'm just not seeing the Ni and Fe, though.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Snow White said:


> I will definitely look more into INFJ and ISFJ. INF always seems to be definite, it's the J and P that are interchangable for me. Those two types are difficult for me to come to terms with in regards to which one fits me.
> 
> As far as the instincts go with the enneagram, I always thought myself to be an soc-last, despite my preoccupation on others and how they feel. I suppose I always likened this to being sensitive to emotions and insecure about myself. I have a hard time thinking about society as a whole when it comes to my own actions, or the "greater good". I'm affected by the world (in the sense of feeling alienated from it) but separate from society, and I tend to neglect most things in my life that aren't of immediate concern if I'm involved in a passionate, consuming situation.


You really need to look more into cognitive functions, not rely on the dichotomies. They don't really help you much at all. The reason why I say ISFJ is because I see signs in you that seem to point towards inferior intuition. This rules out intuition entirely as being part of your type description. You somewhat remind me of sleepyhead (INFJ) but not really. You seem so focused on how you experience things and how it makes you feel in a physical sensation sense. I could possibly see ESFP for you as well, but I don't see the Fi and Te. The only other conclusion I can think of is ENFJ, but that doesn't seem to make sense given that you've shown signs of what seems to be inferior N. That you are socially introverted has little to no bearing on what MBTI type you are. You can be cognitively extraverted but socially introverted. They aren't exclusive of each other. 



Snow White said:


> My reasons for putting sx-first have to do with my self-destructive behaviors geared toward stimulation. Because I don't find it in people, I will seek out an intense "addiction" that excites me and makes me feel energized (because nothing else seems to do that). I get a very narrow scope of focus when it comes to what stirs me. Whatever holds my passion regains all my attention, to the detriment of everything else in my life. When something stirred me, it consumed me. Writing consumed me. Fantasy consumed me. My SO (now) consumes me. When I've had friends, it's always one of them that consumes me to the point where I become co-dependent on them and need them in order to function. If somethin changes, I must latch onto something else to get that next "high" and to continue feeling alive, rather than an impotent, lackluster life. I can't stand mundane. I can't stand social outings or the falseness of everyday contact. I need something new, different, and when it ceases to hold my interest or excite me, I take it to unhealthy levels in order to maintain that strong emotional attachment. Love, especially, takes me to this height. There's nothing like falling in love and being unsure about what's going to happen, completely ungrounded and utterly consumed by a soulmate.
> 
> There are some 9 tendancies in my personality, I've noticed, but I lack what they're so good at - removing myself from conflict and emotion. I'm so in touch with my emotional responses and responses in others. I feel like drama follows me wherever I go.
> 
> sx/soc might be more apt than sx/sp...


The thing here isn't so much that I think you're soc because you're pre-occupied thinking about others, I think you are soc because you seem to want to fit in and diminishing your own self-worth, as well as in general being overly aware of your defects but instead of using them to separate yourself from others like sx 4s do, you try to diminish your differences. You don't want to be different or special, you want to fit in. That's soc thinking, not sx thinking. I'm 4w5 and my sx is tied to 4 - this makes me take pride in my defects. It's kind of like "but it's my way or the highway - if you don't like me, it's not my problem, it's yours." so doms will in comparison be kind of like "I'm so ugly and repulsive so please let me just be normal like everyone else". 

Look at artists such as Marilyn Manson who is 4w5 sx and how they turn their sense of being defect into something that separates them further - if you're not with me you're against me. If you think I'm ugly then I'm going to become even more ugly. Sexual 4s make everything into a competition - I can be better than you, I can show you who I am or what I am capable of. I don't get this vibe from you at all. 

Which description do you identify the most with?


* *





The Social Four An Idealized Self-Image The social Four is depicted in a fine Enneagram movie, Heavenly Creatures. The storyline is set in England and features two teenage girls, both Fours. The dark haired one, Paula, is a Four with a Five-wing and she is a intimate subtype. Her friend, Gina, is a Four with a Three wing, and she is a social subtype. They are pretty good examples of how the subtypes work.


The issue for the social subtype is shame. The sin of envy is related here to the group opinion. The belief is that the group has what I do not. I'm defective and the group knows it. Therefore I am ashamed because I am different. Perhaps because of the Three wing which increases awareness of group norms, I agree with the judgment of the group. I should be ashamed of my deformity.


Fours have an idealized images, as do all the types, but it is reversed. Fours do have an idealized self-image, but they assess their relationship to it negatively. I know what I should be like and it is such a shame that I can not and never will be able to measure up to that idea. Shame on me.


Stereotypical male homosexual culture has a Four aura about it. That is the stereotype you see in the movies and TV. For them, coming out of the closet and facing their shame is facing their deepest Enneagram problem and social rejection at the same time. For someone with a Three wing to have society reject you at your deepest orientation, it can feel like total rejection. It can be really excruciating, especially if their family -- one's first social group -- rejects them.
Inner reality most important Fours turn to their inner imaginative life for solace. Social Fours can fantasize how they will become a social celebrity and then heap scorn on all the people who looked down on them before their national recognition. Revenge frequently plays a part in the fantasy life of Fours. Sometimes this revenge sharply colors the real-life relationship and they reject a person before that person can get to place where they might be able to reject the Four. This preemptive strike can emerge as generalized hostility.


Because they see themselves as defective, they are frequently extremely sensitive to criticism. Low self-image is their defining quality, practicality and criticism merely confirms what they have felt all along. Shakespeare's lines of Sonnet 29 begins "When in disgrace with fortune and men's eyes, I all alone beweep my outcast state. I trouble deaf heaven with my bootless cries and look upon myself and curse my fate." That's not a temporary emotional affliction for a social Four. It's a way of life.


With their emotional resources, however, they may resort to charm to cover their inner desolation, especially if they have a Three wing. No one will ever know what I have suffered...kind of attitude. But Condon points out that with a Five wing, they can grow antisocial and depressed like Meryl Streep in The French Lieutenant's Woman. "The shame is more than I can bear." (In Batman Returns, The Penguin is a Four who is defective and wants revenge for the way people have looked down on him.)
Nobody loves me The group rejection that social Fours feel (and resent) is not based on any specific social skill or attribute they feel they should cultivate. The group just "knows" they are made wrong and should have been rejected at the factory. You see the high side of this in the writings of St. Therese of Liseux, who is a clear Four. She writes so eloquently of the mercy of God because that is her issue: she needs mercy for the inner wrongness she knows darn well is there. She knows she's bad but her faith assures her that even so, God's mercy is greater. (Now we all know that in some way, but it's not the inner song we sing all day...)


The perception that I am wrong inside is only slightly different from the One's inner critical voice. The difference is that Ones are critical of everything, Fours are critical largely of themselves. But both Fours and Ones have the nasty perceptual habit of comparing reality to what should be. This habit costs Fours some important relationships. In the case of social Fours, it makes them social critics and makes them critical of social norms. At times this can give them permission to do things that are immoral because they don't care about social injunctions. They then tend not to like working for organizations or belonging to institutions. And if they do belong, they can be highly critical.


Resources: Tom Condon's video in which he works with a social Four is instructive. You can see the push-pull of relationships: they want them but they want to be left alone to revel/wallow in their own fantasy/emotional world. If you are Catholic/Christian or you are interested in meditation, the Carmelite tradition is known for its superlative development of meditation. Therese of Liseux and St. John of the Cross are both Fours, as is much of the Carmelite tradition. You might profit from reading the material. Beginners are often warned off the stark Spanish Jesuit because of his harshness, but Fours will love the emotional richness, the poetic expression and the vividness of the emotional states.






* *





The Intimate Four Suffering by Comparison The intimate subtype of the Four competes around relationships. Competition is rooted in comparison and Fours and Ones both have the perceptual habit of comparing reality to what should be. This makes the One very critical, it makes the sexual (intimate) subtype Four competitive about emotional status, especially their status with the significant person in their life.


Fours in general believe that love is by far the most important thing in their lives and the sexual subtype in particular believes that when, and only when, they find the perfect love will they be happy. This is often coupled with the belief that once they had a perfect love. Either their mother or some significant person loved them unconditionally and this was the happiest -- and perhaps the only happy -- time of their life. This was the Garden of Eden before they were discovered to be defective and summarily rejected. 
Envy But the competition goes a little further. Intimate Fours compare their state in life with that of others - and suffer by comparison. While they are prone to jealousy with a mate, they are prone to emotional evaluation and comparison with everyone they deem to be their equal. (I have four years of college like she does but I don't have a managerial position. She's so much further ahead than I am. Then... "I wonder what's wrong with me.") 


The romantic tendency of the Fours comes out when the intimate subtype not only wants to be the person the mate loves the most, but what would make it perfect would be if they were the only person the mate ever loved. When the Four tries to obtain emotional status, that probably relates to the dependency of the style Two to which they have a strong connection. Twos get identity from being loved, intimate Fours get importance and self-worth as a gift from the one who loves them. Their self-worth is not rooted in the self, it has its origin in the estimation of the mate and of society. 
Their envy can easily become professional envy. The professional envy is rooted in a desire for revenge (because I know they don't really respect me) and is rooted in a positive characteristic of the Four, an appreciation of quality. Whereas the Three plays to the crowd in a democratic way, the relational or intimate Four labors to gain the respect of their peers. And not only their peers, but those other professionals who really know quality when they see it. Threes play for the crowd, intimate Fours play for the other musicians, especially the visitors from the symphony. 
Emotional criteria Comparison requires ways and means of keeping score. This is intricate because simple counting won't give you a qualitative analysis. Consequently, they covet prestige. Victories over one's peers is sweet indeed and one must take every effort to be recognized by the best people, especially those acknowledged experts. (Sometimes this is reversed in Social Fours, they want recognition only from those rejected by society but like all mirror images the importance remains constant). 


In the movie Amadeus, the outrage, self-loathing and envy so transparent in Soliari when he talks about the music of Mozart is instructive. Because Mozart was talented, Soliari was tormented. The nature of competition is that if you win, I lose. In America competition is always an emotional threat. 
Out of my league A special cross for intimate Fours to bear is that they are drawn to precisely what they can't have. This is romantic tragedy. We are perfect for each other, but she lives in San Francisco and I dwell in Santa Fe. So we commute every third month. We have a wonderful week or weekend and then return to our respective hells. Or he is a carpenter and she is an opera star. Or she is wealthy and he sells siding. Any obstacle will do as long as the intimate Four doesn't have to endure the real relationship. It is so much sweeter in the mind than in reality. 


But when the obstacle is taken away, then the habit of comparing reality to the ideal (which worked fine when I idealized her as she lived in San Francisco) sets in, and I begin to notice that she has shoddy taste in Impressionism, actually listens to Metallica and may have voted for George Bush. How can I possibly live with such a creature? The comparative thinking leads to fault finding as it compares a real person to an ideal. 


This can set up a push/pull relationship. I love you while you are absent, but up close I notice you have a lot of faults. But as soon as you go, I begin to idealize you and get in touch with the really deep feelings I have for you. Please come back and torture me again.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

petitpèlerin said:


> You sound NF: extremely imaginative. You were an emotional child, forced to tone it down: high F. You sound more introverted than extroverted. So, INFx. You sound more Fi and Ne than Ni and Fe. Fi has a terrible time doing anything in conflict with personal values, and with Ne it tends to be very imaginative. Overall you sound INFP to me so that's my guess. Additionally, INFPs are some of the rare introverts who would hate going to the concert afterparty but would feel obligated to socialize the whole time (not sit in the corner, not wait in the car, not take a cab home, etc.)
> 
> I'm seeing Fi all over the place, but if I'm seeing it wrong, then maybe INFJ would be another possibility. I'm just not seeing the Ni and Fe, though.


Yeah, I think you see her enneagram 4. I don't see much Fi in her at all  The way she reasons doesn't strike me much as Fi in general. Fi dom caring about being polite when 4w5? 4w5 is together with 5w4 probably the least likely types to care for social formalities (because 5 doesn't give a damn about people) along with poorly developed 8s.


----------



## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Snow White said:


> I would never doubt someone else's self-typing. I hate it when people try to convince someone that they aren't what they "think you are", and I very much appreciate how helpful you've been in this thread. You haven't made me feel threatened or hurt my sense of self at all, and I am very grateful for that.
> 
> Once I read that INFJs have a different style of speaking than INFPs that are a little more self-assured. A direct, "Hand me that milk" rather than, "could you possibly get the milk?" I do the second - I suppose that's what I meant by "forceful", but I understand it doesn't have to be that way. It was just a theory I saw somewhere else and happened to be reiterarated somewhere in the link you showed me.
> 
> ...


Yea, that's from the infjorinfp page. Irony is that she reminds me of an ISFJ, lol.

And it's nice that you don't find me hostile or something like that :kitteh:

I would recommend these: Tests

I don't think you are ISFJ because you reacted to what the picture madee you feel and not what it is. More than that, you have more the assumption that the external world is cruel and your internal world is a safe haven, rather than seeing bad things as an endless loop of misery (ISJs in the grip of the inferior can think that the world is an endless loop of misery and that bad things will just keep coming).

I would however keep an eye on ISFJ just in case. ISFJs and INFJs are a lot alike so I could be wrong.

http://personalitycafe.com/isfj-articles/78380-recognizing-inferior-function-isfj.html
http://personalitycafe.com/infj-forum-protectors/76894-recognizing-inferior-function-infj.html


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

*"More than that, you have more the assumption that the external world is cruel and your internal world is a safe haven*"

Enneagram 4 and 5 and I leave it at that.


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

LeaT said:


> You really need to look more into cognitive functions, not rely on the dichotomies. They don't really help you much at all. The reason why I say ISFJ is because I see signs in you that seem to point towards inferior intuition. This rules out intuition entirely as being part of your type description. You somewhat remind me of sleepyhead (INFJ) but not really. You seem so focused on how you experience things and how it makes you feel in a physical sensation sense. I could possibly see ESFP for you as well, but I don't see the Fi and Te. The only other conclusion I can think of is ENFJ, but that doesn't seem to make sense given that you've shown signs of what seems to be inferior N. That you are socially introverted has little to no bearing on what MBTI type you are. You can be cognitively extraverted but socially introverted. They aren't exclusive of each other.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I loved the movie Heavenly Creatures, and I am obsessed with the case of Pauline Parker and Juliet Hulme, so this helped me so much. 

I related entirely to Juliet - you called her "Gina", but Gina was actually Pauline's nickname - her "character name", while Juliet's was Deborah. 

But Juliet was the 4w3 SO-first. The one who wanted recognition and completely indulged in fantasy worlds, ultimately leading to the destruction of her life and Pauline's. They were obsessed with each other. It was a film I related to, because I saw myself so easily in the situation. I could have been Juliet without any trouble. Romanticizing my flaws - I have a cognitive defect with my skull that required surgery, I thought it was "romantic" at the time, just like her tuberculosis. This makes me begin to wonder if so/sx could be a possibility. I also had that unnatural attachment to friends - several over the course of my life, in fact (always one at a time) - and at times they became so passionate that destructive behavior nearly did become my reality. It was terrifying, but wonderful.


----------



## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

LeaT said:


> *"More than that, you have more the assumption that the external world is cruel and your internal world is a safe haven*"
> 
> Enneagram 4 and 5 and I leave it at that.


Of course it is. It speaks against what YOU think.
I think this is up to her and I'll leave it at that.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Snow White said:


> I loved the movie Heavenly Creatures, and I am obsessed with the case of Pauline Parker and Juliet Hulme, so this helped me so much.
> 
> I related entirely to Juliet - you called her "Gina", but Gina was actually Pauline's nickname - her "character name", while Juliet's was Deborah.
> 
> But Juliet was the 4w3 SO-first. The one who wanted recognition and completely indulged in fantasy worlds, ultimately leading to the destruction of her life and Pauline's. They were obsessed with each other. It was a film I related to, because I saw myself so easily in the situation. I could have been Juliet without any trouble. Romanticizing my flaws - I have a cognitive defect with my skull that required surgery, I thought it was "romantic" at the time, just like her tuberculosis. This makes me begin to wonder if so/sx could be a possibility. I also had that unnatural attachment to friends - several over the course of my life, in fact (always one at a time) - and at times they became so passionate that destructive behavior nearly did become my reality. It was terrifying, but wonderful.


If you think the so dom description fits you better you're probably so dom  Even 49x tritype folks tend to have a strong aggressive drive when sx first. You might wanna chat up a bit with other IxFJ 4s in the 4 forum and see how they reason about things. They can probably help to determine if you're an Fi or Fe user too.


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

petitpèlerin said:


> You sound NF: extremely imaginative. You were an emotional child, forced to tone it down: high F. You sound more introverted than extroverted. So, INFx. You sound more Fi and Ne than Ni and Fe. Fi has a terrible time doing anything in conflict with personal values, and with Ne it tends to be very imaginative. Overall you sound INFP to me so that's my guess. Additionally, INFPs are some of the rare introverts who would hate going to the concert afterparty but would feel obligated to socialize the whole time (not sit in the corner, not wait in the car, not take a cab home, etc.)
> 
> I'm seeing Fi all over the place, but if I'm seeing it wrong, then maybe INFJ would be another possibility. I'm just not seeing the Ni and Fe, though.


I'm leaning toward INFP still. I'm having trouble relating to some INFJ descriptions.


----------



## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

This was what I was paraphrasing.



> In the next chapter, we will discuss how Introverted Sensing types worry about dire possibilities occurring in the future. In contrast, Introverted Intuitive types focus on relentless realities in the present. They have a readiness to distrust the outer world and to assume that the environment, things, or people will fail them. An INFJ dreaded an impending vacation trip because she was sure the highway signs would be inadequate or confusing.


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Yeah, I think you see her enneagram 4. I don't see much Fi in her at all  The way she reasons doesn't strike me much as Fi in general. Fi dom caring about being polite when 4w5? 4w5 is together with 5w4 probably the least likely types to care for social formalities (because 5 doesn't give a damn about people) along with poorly developed 8s.


I don't want to hurt someone's feelings, but I don't know if I could be called "polite" necessarily...


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> Yea, that's from the infjorinfp page. Irony is that she reminds me of an ISFJ, lol.
> 
> And it's nice that you don't find me hostile or something like that :kitteh:
> 
> ...


Thank you for the links to the test, I will definitely take them. I find these things infinitely interesting. 

INFJ/INFPs are going to continue to elude me. Every test I take it's one or the other - I tried to seek out other ways of discovering it, only to be basically told I was an INFP because INFJs are rare. I find that arrogance irritating, but partly because I see it sometimes in myself.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Snow White said:


> Thank you for the links to the test, I will definitely take them. I find these things infinitely interesting.
> 
> INFJ/INFPs are going to continue to elude me. Every test I take it's one or the other - I tried to seek out other ways of discovering it, only to be basically told I was an INFP because INFJs are rare. I find that arrogance irritating, but partly because I see it sometimes in myself.


That's why you don't need to take tests but you need to read up on the functions. Tests will never be able to truly reveal your type. They can only be as truthful as you are to yourself.


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

@LeaT - The only issue I'm having is that I relate so strongly to the sx/sp description. I put it previously on this thread as an edit, bolding the stacking sentences I related to more. There are some things about the others I see in myself, but not to the same extent. I'm trying to find a stacking I'm comfortable relating to. sx/soc seems like a logical conclusion, or soc/sx, but when reading the descriptions, sx/sp keeps popping out. sx/soc is up there too, but not nearly as much.

I see what I don't have in common with sx/sp, but I suppose I see more what I _do_... I see the differences more easily and obviously in the other stackings, except sx/soc.

Functions-wise there's so much to get through... is there a more clear cut way of looking at these differences? Like a compare and contrast?


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Snow White said:


> @_LeaT_ - The only issue I'm having is that I relate so strongly to the sx/sp description. I put it previously on this thread as an edit, bolding the stacking sentences I related to more. There are some things about the others I see in myself, but not to the same extent. I'm trying to find a stacking I'm comfortable relating to. sx/soc seems like a logical conclusion, or soc/sx, but when reading the descriptions, sx/sp keeps popping out. sx/soc is up there too, but not nearly as much.
> 
> I see what I don't have in common with sx/sp, but I suppose I see more what I _do_... I see the differences more easily and obviously in the other stackings, except sx/soc.
> 
> Functions-wise there's so much to get through... is there a more clear cut way of looking at these differences? Like a compare and contrast?


Are you reading the specific 4 descriptions of subtypes or just the descriptions in general? If you read them in general they will not truly be able to apply, no.

You could also listen to this:


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Are you reading the specific 4 descriptions of subtypes or just the descriptions in general? If you read them in general they will not truly be able to apply, no.
> 
> You could also listen to this:



Reading the 4 descriptions, the SX does seem a little more off - you're right about that. The SO is something I relate to a little more. 

Do you know where I can find specific 4 sx/so or 4 so/sx descriptions? I'm just finding the primary instinct descriptions.

Listening to the video now.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Snow White said:


> Reading the 4 descriptions, the SX does seem a little more off - you're right about that. The SO is something I relate to a little more.
> 
> Do you know where I can find specific 4 sx/so or 4 so/sx descriptions? I'm just finding the primary instinct descriptions.
> 
> Listening to the video now.


Probably the most comprehensive site you can find about subtypes:

Four stacks - the enneagram ...info from the underground


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Probably the most comprehensive site you can find about subtypes:
> 
> Four stacks - the enneagram ...info from the underground


Wonderful. 

Using these:

*Sexual/Self-pres

This is a very volatile type. They are driven to form connections but have very high demands of their partners.* *When their powerful fantasies don’t match reality, they become very restless. They take the fire and passion of the sexual instinct and turn it inward. This can cause both brooding and fiery outbursts. Dramatic mood swings are very likely with this type. This subtype of Four could be considered the most classic Four, because of the way they seem to embody the archetype of the tortured artist, although not all Fours of this subtype are artists. Stereotype aside, this subtype does tend to bring their emotions into focus more readily then the other subtypes of Four. *What is under the surface with the self-pres/sexual is now bubbling to the surface. This subtype can resemble type Seven because of their *drama*, passion for experience and tendency to suffer from frustration when life seems dull. Like type Seven, they can seem to throw themselves into experience.

*Sexual/Social*

*This subtype is able to connect with others and with life itself, but always with an undertone of volatility and a tendency to dramatize. They are the most involved and connected of the subtypes of Four. They can go from relationship to relationship, seemingly tortured by each one. They are the most driven of the subtypes of Four to express themselves publicly *and type Four celebrities are commonly found with this stacking. *This subtype has a real difficulty remaining grounded, partly due to the undeveloped self-pres instinct. *Although they can appear almost Eight-like at times with their lust for life and desire for passionate experience, *they lack the focus of the Eight and the instinctual energy that would keep them grounded. Sometimes alcohol or substance abuse can be a problem.* These Fours become more healthy when they learn to control their impulsivenss and focus their energies.


----------



## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

@Snow White

I skimmed through your thread, and I think you're SX-first. Leave the author's interpretations and romanticized descriptions aside for now, it's better to look into the core of the instincts theory first and foremost. Every 4 can more or less relate to the Sx/Sp description you posted above, because most 4s exhibit this push-pull anyway, and it's only exacerbated by the instinctual stackings. This is why I think you should get more theoretical.

I advise you to read this thread: http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...ce-thread-instinctual-variants-stackings.html

I know it's long, but it's a combination of the best information on instincts available online; it delves into how your instincts manifest themselves in every position of the stacking. There are additional links in the subsequent pages. Look through them, and let me know what you think ^^


----------



## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@Snow White: There has been a lot thrown around here, but honestly I think INFP vs INFJ are not really similar in a lot of ways. They both have a deep relationship with their feelings, and their dominant functions self-reference exceptionally much. 

Since you are new to cognitive functions, here is the easiest way to distinguish the main preferences of those two: INFP uses "introverted judging" at the top. Whereas "INFJ" uses introverted perceiving. That's the first counter-intuitive part -- the J one uses a P function as its top. If you've been thinking J vs. P, undoubtedly this is baffling. 

Introverted judging is way, way, way, way, way different (can I emphasize more) from introverted perceiving. I personally have a stronger expressed introverted judging function than in most INFJs I encounter, and perhaps correspondingly, I think I am quite INFP-friendly. 

Introverted intuition is about seeing connections based on a storehouse of information, experiences, visions that exist in your mind. It's a lot more about having these wild creative hunches based on your personal inner world, and to say this is dominant means this is happening _constantly_. This is the bread and butter of an INFJ. Don't be too impressed by it of course - just because someone turns to intuitive leaps a lot doesn't mean those leaps are really sensible or worth much.

Introverted feeling is (and perhaps @kaleidoscope or @LeaT can say it better) reasoning directly based on ideals that ring true with who you are. It involves, when developed, a strong ability to justify to yourself what following those ideals means. Much as introverted thinking, those parameters to reason with are very much coming from within (principles, ideals, etc, not objective data taken from outside). A strong Fi-user is just not going to be ambivalent on most things they care deeply about. They may seek confirmation from the objective world, but usually their decisions were somehow already made deep within.
This usually gives a dominant Fi-user a certain forcefulness if you get to know just how strongly they reason with their feelings, and how unshakeable often they are. It can either be great or terrible, depending on how well-developed their other functions are.


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> @_Snow White_
> 
> I skimmed through your thread, and I think you're SX-first. Leave the author's interpretations and romanticized descriptions aside for now, it's better to look into the core of the instincts theory first and foremost. Every 4 can more or less relate to the Sx/Sp description you posted above, because most 4s exhibit this push-pull anyway, and it's only exacerbated by the instinctual stackings. This is why I think you should get more theoretical.
> 
> ...


@_kaleidoscope_

This is a wonderful link, thank you. It's given me a lot of insight about blind spots in particular; I can definitely relate to this:

*b) SP blind spot - lack of solid foundation, lack in comfort and coziness, lack in attention to health and upkeep, since these people are rarely concerned about sp matters. There is fear is of being an "eternal child" who won’t take care of ones’ self and expectation of failure in dealing with sp instinct. They tend to look down on sp-domain, express certain cynicism towards it e.g. state that sp-firsts are too fearful and “don’t know how to really live".

When the instinct for self-preservation is last in the instinctual stacking, the individual will often be somewhat ungrounded or seemingly “immature.” Such individuals often have a hard time focusing on issues such as financial security or the commitment to the development of practical skills. Sometimes, issues of health are ignored. In the more extroverted types, individuals who are self-pres last, often find it difficult to develop “inwardness.”

*My SO constantly accuses me of being "helpless", "like a child", because I don't focus on practical matters as being particularly important and/or deserving of much consideration. I put far more emphasis on living, deep connections with each other, even family, before I worry about bills and worldly obligations that "no one is going to be thinking about in ten years" (as I often say to her). The funny thing is, I'm usually the one to take care of bills and such - mainly because it doesn't stress me out. I do have a cynical vision of people who are sp firsts (as my SO is) as being too stressed and/or incapable of living vicariously through experience instead of being bogged down by senseless things.

*2a) SX dominant or secondary* - *charge, electricity, intense attraction, focus, addictions,* days without sleeping, *moth to the flame attraction, obsessions,* stalking, “loose cannons”, blurt things out in groups, *don't think about others.* It is as if they constantly set themselves on fire. *Their life can get out of control if their sx instinct becomes neurotic. They may find it hard to settle into anything, including stable careers and committed relationships, out of fear that the need for intensity won’t be sustained for a long time. High cost—“all or nothing” attitude. **On the high side, sexual subtypes often bring a certain passion and experimentalism to their lives; they are generally willing to take risks in order to attain their ideals. Sexual subtypes are also usually willing to sacrifice for those who matter most to them; they have an expanded sense of what constitutes the self and tend to merge with those they love. On the down side however, sexual subtypes tend to struggle with issues of neediness and dependency, as they tend to feel that they need relationships in order to reclaim lost or inaccessible portions of the self. In addition, the merging tendency, when taken to extremes, can lead to an inability to protect important boundaries. And the desire for intensity of experience can lead sexual subtypes to take unnecessary risks, to be somewhat impatient and to grow bored or frustrated with mundane reality. When the overall personality is unbalanced, thrill seeking or self-medication sometimes enter the picture, and can lead to various forms of addiction.


*It's extremely startling to me how true that last part is. I didn't even have to leave anything unbolded.

*
b) SO blind spot* - *finds it hard to concern self with another’s agenda, dismissive. They may feel that connecting socially will cost them something and consider interactions to be draining.* Would rather act as a lone force, lone wolves, I'm-on-my-own attitude, feeling that they don't need others and others don't need them. *Fear of being emotionally crippled, being unable to connect with many people*, self-conscious of being socially ungracious. It’s hard to take in the gifts and generosity of others. Projected fear - if I ignore others, they will ignore me. There’s an expectation of humiliation. *A desire not to impose self on people in fear of not being wanted or being klutzy.

*When the social instinct is least developed, the individual is going to find it difficult to see why it is important to form social connections or to cultivate multiple relationships. This, in turn, can lead to a certain amount of social isolation. And, as we all must find a niche in the larger whole, those whose social instinct is least developed, can find it difficult to negotiate the needs of the social realm which make this possible. Those whose social instinct is last in the instinctual stacking, find interdependence difficult and dependence on others barely tolerable. But all human beings are interdependent, and sometimes, dependent - when they are, for instance, young, weak, sick, old or dying. Those whose social instinct remains undeveloped are trying to attain a type of independence and self-sufficiency which is not possible for human beings. This “false independence” almost certainly leads to unnecessary suffering and impoverishment of experience. 


Looking at things this way, it seems clear to me that my sp might actually be the least developed instinct. Thank you so much for this, it's definitely given me a fresh view and a more ordered way at looking at my personality. I think I automatically put so last without thinking about it, because I am more internally-focused - but my need to be independent isn't nearly as strong as this. I also don't feel as conflicted as the push and pull of an sx dom's need to merge verses an sp's need to be independent. 

I'm also more aware of social subtleties, especially when it comes to superficiality. I can engage in that same behavior myself, despite my utter disdain for it. I think sx/sps seem as though they are more true to themselves, rather than adopt an attitude of socially acceptable behavior.

*
**b) sx/so
*

*Motivation:* To impact others, question assumptions, challenge convention.

This is the type that exudes the most raw charisma and sexual energy (Not sure about this, but of course I would like to think so). *They may identify so strongly with whatever they're involved with that they often become the symbol of its core essence, and sometimes its lead agent for change. Hardly content with the status quo, this subvariant seeks to alter the fundamental structure of something while at once embodying it's purest or most extreme form. Possibly attracted to radical views on politics, philosophy, spirituality or creativity that reflect their penchant for testing boundaries. They enjoy pushing other's buttons, especially those resistant to their modes of expression. It's not uncommon for them to have a pet social, political or spiritual cause which they're able to support with heartfelt conviction. May exploit and seek to redefine sexuality to reflect their own colorful and uncertain understanding of it.* *While prone to exhibitionism, they are strongly attracted to grounding influences which can anchor them and provide stability.* *Failure to satisfy an especially intense desire for connection may cause this subvariant to spite others at the risk of jeopardizing the need for an equal, stabilizing force. Can feel pulled between wanting a life of maximum intensity and reassuring episodes of peaceful convention.*


*Energy:* intense energy expressed outwards, assertively (I've been told I'm intimidating and appear confident - although this is still a push and pull struggle within myself. Sometimes I am incredibly confident, but then plagued by periods of intense self-loathing and insecurity).
*Mindset:* *"If I can maintain position and inclusion in the group/world, I can keep up and escalate all this merging/intensity."*
*Blind spot:* *Likely to neglect their desire to build their sense of personal value, accomplishment, and security of place with others for the sake of their primary concern of seeking intense connections and experiences, in average-healthy levels. May not have an awareness of the body's need for food or sleep, or of the need to accumulate wealth for reasons of security, or of the need to manage time or resources to establish an orderly lifestyle. *

And now the sx/sp:

*
a) sx/sp
*

*Motivation:* *To know the heart, reconcile inner conflict, form a secure union. *(This motivation seems to ring more true than the other, but I feel like that's more in line with sx in general). 

This is perhaps the most internally conflicted of the stackings, and potentially the most inconsistent in behavior. *This may occur as a blockage of the sexual instinct which can be redirected as a more generally brooding and troubled personality. *They may isolate themselves for long periods of time before reemerging. They live according to a strictly personal outlook and are not particularly concerned with the approval of others outside of their immediate concern. *They seem to be searching for something, the missing piece. If they find a soulmate they will unite without fanfare, forming a secret bond, dealing with formalities as an afterthought. Powerful sexual impulses facing inner resistance may manifest symbolically in the psyche, giving way to soulful interpretations of the unconscious.* Under periods of stress severe sexual tensions may manifest as erratic, impulsively destructive behavior. Can seem restless, torn between the comforts of a stable home life and the urge to wander. *May be prone to self-medicating.

*

*Energy*: *intense energy expressed calmly, steadily, assertively *(I'm undecided about which is more accurate on this point)
*Mindset*: "If I can make (us) have an orderly & pleasing lifestyle, I can keep up and escalate all this merging/intensity."
*Blind spot*: Likely to neglect their desire to maintain physical saftey, comfort, and an orderly lifestyle for the sake of their primary concern of seeking intense connections and experiences, in average-healthy levels. May not have an awareness of the need to connect in a broader sense with the world, of a sense of security or in groups or of the need to seek it, or even of the need to foster approval, support, and understanding of themselves within groups they _are_ connected with, often causing misunderstandings with allies, supporters, friends, and family members.

That particular blind spot doesn't really ring true for me. I have a great need to overcome miscommunication with close friends and families, when they do arise.

*Sexual/Self-pres

*This is a very volatile type. *They are driven to form connections but have very high demands of their partners. When their powerful fantasies don’t match reality, they become very restless. They take the fire and passion of the sexual instinct and turn it inward. This can cause both brooding and fiery outbursts. Dramatic mood swings are very likely with this type.* This subtype of Four could be considered the most classic Four, because of the way they seem to embody the archetype of the tortured artist, although not all Fours of this subtype are artists.* Stereotype aside, this subtype does tend to bring their emotions into focus more readily then the other subtypes of Four.* What is under the surface with the self-pres/sexual is now bubbling to the surface. This subtype can resemble type Seven because of their drama, passion for experience and tendency to suffer from frustration when life seems dull. Like type Seven, they can seem to throw themselves into experience.

*Sexual/Social*

*This subtype is able to connect with others and with life itself, but always with an undertone of volatility and a tendency to dramatize. They are the most involved and connected of the subtypes of Four. They can go from relationship to relationship, seemingly tortured by each one.* *They are the most driven of the subtypes of Four to express themselves publicly* and type Four celebrities are commonly found with this stacking. *This subtype has a real difficulty remaining grounded, partly due to the undeveloped self-pres instinct. Although they can appear almost Eight-like at times with their lust for life and desire for passionate experience, they lack the focus of the Eight and the instinctual energy that would keep them grounded. Sometimes alcohol or substance abuse can be a problem. These Fours become more healthy when they learn to control their impulsiveness and focus their energies. 

*Focus is a big problem for me. I have difficulty finishing things, my thoughts and mind are all over the place. Sometimes I can sit and write pages and pages of a novel, then the next day I have a difficult time formulating the plot behind it all - because I've been writing on pure feeling, with the desire to express my inner journey through characters and a fantasy world of my own creation. The problem is bringing this fantasy to fruition.

Overall, I think I can relate to aspects of both sx/sp and sx/so, but it feels as though the latter may be stronger. I think I have less of a need to be independent and to be practical about everyday matters. I also do have a little concern about social things - whether it be positive or negative. sx/so definitely seems more likely at this point for me. 

Thanks again for this direction. I hope you were able to make sense of my miandering comments.


----------



## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

I agree with you completely, @_bearotter_. A friend of mine says this and it's true, that Fi is a nasty little dictator :laughing: It's very natural for me to react to something immediately, and very hard for me to hold back. I give this example always, because it's a classic Fi reaction: a friend of mine was telling me that he had a thing going on with his best friend, who had a boyfriend at the time. I was instantly indignant. To me, that is *completely unacceptable* and my opinion was more than obvious. I even got very mad, haha. Though Fi is not just about judging whether or not something is right or wrong, it goes much deeper than that. For example, I'm also very aware of my emotional states, how I feel and why I feel the way I do. 


I notice the difference when I compare myself to my INFJ partner. We could both be commenting on the same thing, and I'm much more impulsive and sure of myself in "judging" that person/idea. "It doesn't make sense", or "she's absolutely ridiculous", etc.. My INFJ takes much more time to process things, put two and two together, ask himself a few questions, discern patterns before giving off a "judgment" (and even then, he's not nearly as inflexible about it as I am).


----------



## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

@_Snow White_

Glad I could help  Based on what you could relate to, I'd say SX/SO is indeed your stacking, especially since you could relate most to the SP blindspot. Most introverts consider themselves to be SO-last, because they tend to equate SO with socializing and the like (which is not necessarily the case). Also, remember that you're a core 4 (a withdrawn type), so you would probably relate less to the expansive, charismatic, and extroverted nature of SX/SO, even if it is indeed your stacking.


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

bearotter said:


> @_Snow White_: There has been a lot thrown around here, but honestly I think INFP vs INFJ are not really similar in a lot of ways. They both have a deep relationship with their feelings, and their dominant functions self-reference exceptionally much.
> 
> Since you are new to cognitive functions, here is the easiest way to distinguish the main preferences of those two: INFP uses "introverted judging" at the top. Whereas "INFJ" uses introverted perceiving. That's the first counter-intuitive part -- the J one uses a P function as its top. If you've been thinking J vs. P, undoubtedly this is baffling.
> 
> ...


Because the P and J seem to operate entirely oppositely depending on the types, I am having a very hard time coming to terms with exactly how these types do operate and how I can try to decipher my own based on the imput of others/what I've read/tests/ect. I know that tests can be extremely misleading. I've scored mainly INFP and INFJ, although there have been some occasions where I've scored as ISFJ and ISFP. So, obviously, I am having a hard time mainly with the S/N and J/P sections. 

What does seem to come up time and time again is my own personal experiences/feelings on a matter and how that influences the way I perceive things. Of course, I have my strong personal convictions as the way I behave myself, but I don't usually project these onto other people. I also see my own belief systems and ethics as somewhat... flawed? I don't think they're necessarily right in the "big picture", but I act often on my hunches and instincts and don't always do the right thing because of it. I let my emotion take me wherever, and I expect others to do the same. So if someone does something irrational, I feel understanding of it because I would do the same in that situation. 

A problem I do have in general is that my sense of self is very ill-defined/malleable/based on current moods. I have a tendency to take on traits I find desirable in others and want to have myself, so taking these tests I'm constantly scoring differently based on my feelings at the present time. I am very swayed by subjective analysis rather than objective, although I can see both sides.

*Introverted intuition is about seeing connections based on a storehouse of information, experiences, visions that exist in your mind. It's a lot more about having these wild creative hunches based on your personal inner world, and to say this is dominant means this is happening constantly.

*This is very true of how I do things. I put a lot of stock on my past experiences - but I still put off making a definite decision. I will take in more and more information (partly for fear of acting too hastily or being "wrong") before I will decide on something. Once I'm in, I'm in 100% and will rarely change my mind - it's getting to that point that is a process for me. I want more and more information. I want to be absolutely sure, likely because of deep insecurity and shame of doing/choosing the wrong thing for myself.

*It involves, when developed, a strong ability to justify to yourself what following those ideals means. Much as introverted thinking, those parameters to reason with are very much coming from within (principles, ideals, etc, not objective data taken from outside). A strong Fi-user is just not going to be ambivalent on most things they care deeply about. They may seek confirmation from the objective world, but usually their decisions were somehow already made deep within.
This usually gives a dominant Fi-user a certain forcefulness if you get to know just how strongly they reason with their feelings, and how unshakeable often they are. It can either be great or terrible, depending on how well-developed their other functions are.*

This is difficult to say, as far as if I apply it constantly or not. I believe I do when making decisions for myself - it's always about what I feel rather than what is going on outside my head and gut feelings. However, if I'm giving advice to someone else, my own biasness tends to go on the backburner. I do consider other things, because I have an awareness that my own feelings aren't applicable in the case of a friend in need and wouldn't be helpful in such situations. Unless asked, I don't really access my personal moral values or belief systems in such incidences.

...This goes without saying that this doesn't include extreme cases where their choices are INTENSELY opposite of my personal values. Like... um, murder. Or something crazy like that. If it's something like cheating, which is something I feel strongly about because I was cheated on, I would greatly encourage them to not do it simply because I know how it feels to be in the situation and how the one who's cheated on feels - I wouldn't want someone else to be put in that position, even if I didn't know them. 

If it's a situation that I have an opinion on as far as what I would do, I would still be objective about it with another person - giving them facts on the likelihood of a positive outcome, because I think objectivity is more useful than personal biased feelings. However, when making decisions for myself and dealing with my own personal crisises, I am not objective or considering of external influences at all. 

I don't know that this helped, or if I even understood what you explained properly - I just thought real life examples of situations might help a little when considering INFP verses INFJ verses ISFJ verses ISFP. I don't identify with the INFP's tendency to view the world under rose-colored glasses (I think I do just the opposite), but I don't know if I'm generalizing. Surely not all INFPs are entirely idealistic/positive people.


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> I agree with you completely, @_bearotter_. A friend of mine says this and it's true, that Fi is a nasty little dictator :laughing: It's very natural for me to react to something immediately, and very hard for me to hold back. I give this example always, because it's a classic Fi reaction: a friend of mine was telling me that he had a thing going on with his best friend, who had a boyfriend at the time. I was instantly indignant. To me, that is *completely unacceptable* and my opinion was more than obvious. I even got very mad, haha. Though Fi is not just about judging whether or not something is right or wrong, it goes much deeper than that. For example, I'm also very aware of my emotional states, how I feel and why I feel the way I do.
> 
> 
> I notice the difference when I compare myself to my INFJ partner. We could both be commenting on the same thing, and I'm much more impulsive and sure of myself in "judging" that person/idea. "It doesn't make sense", or "she's absolutely ridiculous", etc.. My INFJ takes much more time to process things, put two and two together, ask himself a few questions, discern patterns before giving off a "judgment" (and even then, he's not nearly as inflexible about it as I am).


This situation immediately makes me think I'm an INFJ, because I would do what your partner would do in this situation - consider all facts involved before coming to a decision about things.


----------



## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@kaleidoscope - Yeah, and in my case, I sometimes even wonder what my dominant should be. Undoubtedly, I use Ni like crazy (coming up with unlikely, wild ideas using Ni is my specialty), and am not "confident" enough to use Fi that often, but I do often wonder if I'm Ni or Ti first. I find that my FJ acquaintances don't really feel the same compulsive need to avoid the word "maybe", and in general with intuitive types
(for instance, even in the case of an ENTP acquaintance, I find I'm always rampaging to try to reach some Ti-like conclusion, and definitely the same goes for FJ acquaintances).


----------



## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

And @Snow White:

strictly speaking, what kaleidoscope wrote would help you distinguish if you are FP or FJ, but whether it's EN, ES, IN, IS would depend on other things, but yeah, I think you are getting the hang of it


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> @_Snow White_
> 
> Glad I could help  Based on what you could relate to, I'd say SX/SO is indeed your stacking, especially since you could relate most to the SP blindspot. Most introverts consider themselves to be SO-last, because they tend to equate SO with socializing and the like (which is not necessarily the case). Also, remember that you're a core 4 (a withdrawn type), so you would probably relate less to the expansive, charismatic, and extroverted nature of SX/SO, even if it is indeed your stacking.


Yes, that's all definitely true - even when there's a 3 wing, I do have a withdrawn feeling within that is further stressed by 9 being part of my tritype! I even considered 459 for a while, but then decided that I don't have enough 5 qualities to really feel comfortable using that as a primary contributor. And I did associate SO with being social and social interactions, which was definitely a mistake after reading these descriptions!


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

bearotter said:


> And @_Snow White_:
> 
> strictly speaking, what kaleidoscope wrote would help you distinguish if you are FP or FJ, but whether it's EN, ES, IN, IS would depend on other things, but yeah, I think you are getting the hang of it


Definitely, yes! I find it amusing that I related entirely to what her INFJ partner did in the situation. It reminds me of my interactions with a friend of mine - who does exactly what @kaleidoscope did in such a situation. We have so many discussions like that one.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Hypothetical situation: You're at work and there's an individual you haven't been getting along with for some time now but there has been no open conflict and you rather just want peacefully co-exist so you can get your job done. However, suddenly this co-worker rampages into your office room and accuses you of things you haven't done. Given your conflicted past, how will you react? What will you say to your co-worker? What will you do? How do you think inside?


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Hypothetical situation: You're at work and there's an individual you haven't been getting along with for some time now but there has been no open conflict and you rather just want peacefully co-exist so you can get your job done. However, suddenly this co-worker rampages into your office room and accuses you of things you haven't done. Given your conflicted past, how will you react? What will you say to your co-worker? What will you do? How do you think inside?



Ohh. I love hypotheticals.

First of all, I would feel angry at being slighted and accused of things I haven't done. I would also feel angry because I've kept the peace for this long and obviously the other person isn't putting up the amount of effort I have been and it would make my peace-keeping efforts seem entirely pointless and wasted. I would also feel a little relieved that they were the first to crack since there's been unspoken conflict, and now they're going to be appear to be the ones responsible for it by taking the first aggressive step.

I would react calmly and with questions asking them WHY they think I've done what they're accusing me of, then try to de-escalate the situation in a way not to keep the peace, necessarily, but just to appear as though I'm the rational one in this situation and this person is clearly a little out of their mind. I wouldn't defend any actions I've done, but be open to listening to their point of view rather than denying it outright. However, since I haven't done these things, I wouldn't feel particularly defensive and would be more eager to set the record straight and to come out on top of the situation.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Snow White said:


> Ohh. I love hypotheticals.
> 
> First of all, I would feel angry at being slighted and accused of things I haven't done. I would also feel angry because I've kept the peace for this long and obviously the other person isn't putting up the amount of effort I have been and it would make my peace-keeping efforts seem entirely pointless and wasted. I would also feel a little relieved that they were the first to crack since there's been unspoken conflict, and now they're going to be appear to be the ones responsible for it by taking the first aggressive step.
> 
> I would react calmly and with questions asking them WHY they think I've done what they're accusing me of, then try to de-escalate the situation in a way not to keep the peace, necessarily, but just to appear as though I'm the rational one in this situation and this person is clearly a little out of their mind. I wouldn't defend any actions I've done, but be open to listening to their point of view rather than denying it outright. However, since I haven't done these things, I wouldn't feel particularly defensive and would be more eager to set the record straight and to come out on top of the situation.


As I said before, my first impression of you was IxFJ. The way you answered to this question seems to reinforce this point. I think there's a lot of focus on this individual and what you think is right based on his/her actions rather than relying more on your own moral compass. Maybe others have something else to say.
@kaleidoscope @bearotter?


----------



## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

> First of all, I would feel angry at being slighted and accused of things I haven't done. I would also feel angry because I've kept the peace for this long and obviously the other person isn't putting up the amount of effort I have been and it would make my peace-keeping efforts seem entirely pointless and wasted. I would also feel a little relieved that they were the first to crack since there's been unspoken conflict, and now they're going to be appear to be the ones responsible for it by taking the first aggressive step.




So how I take this response is that you are displaying much more interest in the dynamics of the situation in terms of judging (more focus on reasoning using what is objectively in front of you). Much less of your personal system or your personal ideals. 

You display a lot of strong Si in how you reference how you see how things have been. And a lot of Si + Fe in various responses discussing how things have been and how they relate to your relationship with those you encounter.

Also, your response to @_kaleidoscope_ could (if it is really reflective of how you think) mean Fi-dominance is out of the question. 

There's little thus far to suggest Fi-dominance to me personally. 

But very honestly, I'm hesitant for one reason, because I think the trouble is that Fe-use scenarios are a little easier to describe than Fi-use ones, simply because much as describing one's Ti-system is difficult, describing one's Fi-reasoning is also difficult. 

_Usually_ unless the Fi-vibe is super-strong, though, I think it's right to just rule it out. 
@_Snow White_: remember one thing, which is that just because you can't identify with the most extreme pitfalls of a given type, doesn't mean you are not that type. Having presence of mind to not judge too soon is definitely not necessarily reflective of perceiving dominance, nor is Fi always this raging, crazy function that comes to wrong conclusions. 

Also, Fi-users can definitely take input from the outside, it's just they do this to varying degrees, and what they turn to first is not the outside. 

Basically, I caution greatly from ever deciding you're not a type because you don't think you'd make the mistakes typical of someone with that type. E.g. "I'm not socially awkward, so I can't be ISTP" is a bad conclusion. "I am too deep to only care about sensing" is a bad conclusion. 

There is a spaciness and obsessive idea-generation, whether or not productive, to N types that the S types will not display the same. How this generation occurs (the level of self-reference) determines Ni vs Ne, and whether your sensing has to do with strong self-reference and survey of the past or with the immediate here and now and taking in information as it is has to do with Si vs Se strength.

Your response suggested a typical thing (which you are really not at fault for, because it's all too common), where you go "I would never make that mistake."

The whole point of typing is that we are imbalanced in preferences, and understanding how that affects us (or at least one point, if not the whole point). How do your imbalances affect you? I see people struggle with typing, because they are more interested in proving they don't have the flaws associated with certain imbalances.


----------



## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

^

I admit my example was probably extreme, but this is the difficulty with introverted functions. You tend to notice them mostly when they are acting out in a way, the rest of the time they're largely internal (or at least in my case). 



bearotter said:


> But very honestly, I'm hesitant for one reason, because I think the trouble is that Fe-use scenarios are a little easier to describe than Fi-use ones, simply because much as describing one's Ti-system is difficult, describing one's Fi-reasoning is also difficult.


I totally agree with this. Hell, I agree with your entire post. Not much to say besides nod vigorously and take notes.


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

I've been trying to research the functions and all that such stuff, so I can have better understanding of this Fi/Fe/Si business.
@bearotter - Does this mean, with the Fi not being dominant but there being Fe, would that indicate an INFJ? And based on other things you said, would ISFJ also be considered a possibility? When researching descriptions of the two types I tend to relate more on the INFJ level, but again, some of the guidance out there is extremely misleading... not to mention confusing.


----------



## sodden (Jul 20, 2009)

@Snow White, I answered the survey questions first and then read yours. Reading yours, I can definitely see a difference between our answers. My problem is I am far more well-versed in enneagram than Jung/MBTI. So I see social instinct, three wing as the differences for the most part. That said, there is something rather fe-ish about your answers. As @bearotter mentioned, an emphasis on harmony.


----------



## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@_Snow White_:

You could very well enjoy INFJs more than you do ISFJs, but be an ISFJ. Let me give a few reasons. First, Si is a more rigid functions. It's concerned with your impressions of what you sensed. Whereas Ni is a quietly creative one, constantly forming creative connections between data that has already been taken in by an extroverted function and your entire storehouse. The thing is, the world tends to step on these quietly creative people's worlds a lot more than with people who are more cut and dry. And Ni + Fe _tends_ to be interested in creating a new picture based on which Fe can reason, and also based on what Fe has reasoned in the past. So sometimes, the Ni-dominant with strong Fe will just exhibit a much less rigid tendency towards how they evaluate people and thus be seen as a lot less abrasive.

The stereotypical ISFJ is a nurturing mom, but who has _strong_ impressions of what has and hasn't worked, and what they'll tolerate, but uses Fe well to figure out what her son, partner, etc need. The stereotypical INFJ is a counselor. Who _gains energy_ from constantly figuring new people out. Listening to them. Figuring out what they mean, and what it implies about them, based on what they say (not just on their own principles). 

Of course everyone needs to listen. But those who use Ni + Fe have a huge interest in and gain energy from that process of developing new ways of seeing meaning. There's a "fluffy/creative" thing about the way their minds work. 

Now these are stereotypes, but I'm trying to explain where those stereotypes come from, so you can generalize to non-stereotypical situations. Do you gain a ton of energy intuiting in conjunction with feeling people out? Are you constantly, compulsively finding personal meanings to things? Is that really a part of your personality? Is it something so strongly a part of you that you've felt insecure others who are more grounded in what _is_ rather than what _could be_ just would laugh at that world you've developed inside?

Even if you use introverted intuition, you could be an ISFJ. You could be an ISFJ with a well-developed Ni, or even well-developed Ne.

You could just be more sensitive than the average ISFJ. After all, you're what, a 4w3 and possibly SX-dominant? Being sensitive and seeing the _need_ for that high level of introverted intuition does not mean you are one of those people, it could mean you invoke that as necessary, but that it isn't your primary personality.


----------



## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

I don't discount INFJ, it's more likely than INFP at least.

But I do see ISFJ as quite possible. It really depends how much energy you really gain from introverted intuition. Being an intuitive dominant doesn't mean being smarter. On the contrary, it could mean getting so caught up in your fantasy-land that you aren't able to perform effectively in other ways.


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

bearotter said:


> I don't discount INFJ, it's more likely than INFP at least.
> 
> But I do see ISFJ as quite possible. It really depends how much energy you really gain from introverted intuition. Being an intuitive dominant doesn't mean being smarter. On the contrary, it could mean getting so caught up in your fantasy-land that you aren't able to perform effectively in other ways.


 @bearotter - I put a great deal of importance on fantasy, hypotheticals, what could be or might be, ect. I'm not as grounded in the physical world as I feel like others are - and I expect a great deal would laugh at me. My SO and my family is constantly telling me to think about what is, rather than what isn't, or isn't yet, but my mind is always a great deal ahead (or behind) the present. I don't live in the present. I feel like I'm constantly waiting for something, or constantly thinking about my past in a nostalgic, sad way, or trying to connect to someone else based on my own constructions and idealized connections. (My SO is my soulmate, one and only, we're spiritually bound, we're meant to be, we're above the others, we alone know the truth, ect). Sometimes I do feel unable to perform in the present day, as though mundane tasks are above what other things my mind is capable of. I don't know if that's what you mean, exactly, but I'm trying to articulate it the best way possible.

I do enjoy figuring people out, but it's often with an air of... not disdain or pity, but something akin to it. I recognize our differences and sometimes I feel lacking, sometimes I feel special. It alternates depending on my mood. I find the way others operate to be fascinating and interesting, but I'm more internally focused and distracted by how others relate to me versus how I relate to others. There seems to be something selfish about it... I have concern with how I'm perceived, but it's because I want others to see me the way I see myself. I want to be appreciated and understood, considered, and I have less of a desire to understand someone else... unless I'm particularly interested in them, or talking on a "deep level" regarding shared interests - either novels, spirituality or fantastical constructs, ect.


----------



## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@_Snow White_: one comment, Si does not fixate on the physical world as you see it. It focuses on your impressions/sentiments about things that have happened.

The Ni is fixated on constantly determining what something could possibly mean to you. It has a hard time remaining grounded in what is, was, etc.

I think you seem to use both, possibly. Unfortunately, without getting to know you really closely, someone might have a hard time picking. I can't say I can rule out ISFJ based on what you've said, but it does appear you use both Ni and Si.

The way you talk of your past and obsessive nostalgia, that displays how important Si is to you. The thing is Si is not about hard and fast facts or physical environment. It's about having very deep, strong impressions of the data you've held. And dwelling on them greatly and using them to serve you in the future could be a sign of Si-dominance. That's probably what LeaT was seeing.

Whereas Ni is more about assigning personal meaning. It involves connecting information back to your mind to form newer and newer ways of looking at things, forming hunches of how things are, etc. Someone whose primary inclination is forming connections to their spirituality might be Ni-dominant. Someone with a strong spiritual side but who doesn't _constantly_
keep obsessively forming those connections is probably not Ni-dominant. 

So you probably use both. Which is more fundamental to who you are?

How much do you want to use your impressions of how things are, and how much are you just detached from that and just keep generating connections? What do you turn to most?

Remember, ISTP, ISFP, ENTJ, ENFJ _all_ use Ni plenty. So to say that Ni is your dominant feature despite strong Si present is quite a statement, but it's possible, you'd just have to reflect on what makes you feel it's stronger present in you than in all those types.


----------



## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Also, @Snow White: remember, when you ask people like LeaT (or even myself) to type you, we'll not be going by what most people think the types are like. We'll wind up doing a pretty technical survey, and list out a lot of the exceptions. 

In particular, you'll find a lot of INFJs may be mistyped (even I question my type).


----------



## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@Snow White: a question.

Which describes a potential flaw of yours better in your dealings with others, and I want you to be really honest. Think about it yourself, and you don't have to answer on here (you can do it by PM to me, or talk it over with someone you trust, or just think about it yourself).

So with respect to extroverted feeling: go not by what could be, but seriously what your experiences throughout life have been.... are you more likely to, in dealing with someone you care about, sort of gloss over something they really care about, despite trying to be empathetic to them (think back to your past experiences), or are you more likely to misjudge whether someone had good intentions or not, because people who tended to act that way in general have not been good experiences for you, but later figured out that there was really no reason to doubt the individual?

If you have past experiences, think about which rings more true. Or, think about future scenarios. Whichever appeals.


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

@bearotter - I sent you a PM.  I thought that would be easier.


----------



## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

@bearotter, no perceiving function considers what things mean to you etc. it just perceives the world.



> The Ni is fixated on constantly determining what something could possibly mean to you. It has a hard time remaining grounded in what is, was, etc.


Oh and INJs don't need to be religious or spiritual fanatics.



> Whereas Ni is more about assigning personal meaning. It involves connecting information back to your mind to form newer and newer ways of looking at things, forming hunches of how things are, etc. Someone whose primary inclination is forming connections to their spirituality might be Ni-dominant. Someone with a strong spiritual side but who doesn't _constantly_
> keep obsessively forming those connections is probably not Ni-dominant.


ISJs are actually amongst the most religious 

Also, INJs got inferior Se thus meaning that INJs problem lies in what is and the comfort zone lies in what might be. Thus many INJs are paranoid and believe that people have manipulated them just because a person uses the wrong word to say something etc. That's how an INTJ stopped talking to me.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Snow White said:


> @_bearotter_ - I put a great deal of importance on fantasy, hypotheticals, what could be or might be, ect. I'm not as grounded in the physical world as I feel like others are - and I expect a great deal would laugh at me. My SO and my family is constantly telling me to think about what is, rather than what isn't, or isn't yet, but my mind is always a great deal ahead (or behind) the present. I don't live in the present. I feel like I'm constantly waiting for something, or constantly thinking about my past in a nostalgic, sad way, or trying to connect to someone else based on my own constructions and idealized connections. (My SO is my soulmate, one and only, we're spiritually bound, we're meant to be, we're above the others, we alone know the truth, ect). Sometimes I do feel unable to perform in the present day, as though mundane tasks are above what other things my mind is capable of. I don't know if that's what you mean, exactly, but I'm trying to articulate it the best way possible.
> 
> I do enjoy figuring people out, but it's often with an air of... not disdain or pity, but something akin to it. I recognize our differences and sometimes I feel lacking, sometimes I feel special. It alternates depending on my mood. I find the way others operate to be fascinating and interesting, but I'm more internally focused and distracted by how others relate to me versus how I relate to others. There seems to be something selfish about it... I have concern with how I'm perceived, but it's because I want others to see me the way I see myself. I want to be appreciated and understood, considered, and I have less of a desire to understand someone else... unless I'm particularly interested in them, or talking on a "deep level" regarding shared interests - either novels, spirituality or fantastical constructs, ect.


I have to say though that this post alone reeks of Si. You are describing a past experience and what it felt like and meant to you. What you need to understand is that Si is about noticing patterns in the present based on past experiences. The reason why I say experiences over memory is that Si is often confused with memory but Si has nothing to do with memory more than how Si experiences can be the same as memories, e.g. I remember the necklace my grandmother gave me and how happy it made me. Notice the focus on that _it made me happy_. That's Si. So in the future maybe I meet my husband and he gives me a necklace in pretty much the same fashion as my grandmother did and I suddenly think of her and I feel _the same happiness I felt back then in addition to the happiness I now feel_. This is what Si is about. 

Si-dominants are very able to imagine things or play out with different theories in their minds; Ne always helps them to fill in the blanks of Si experience because Si cannot see the same breadth as Se-users do. You are an enneagram 4 with 9 in your tritype, both very imaginative types. What you need to be able to discern is how your imaginations differ to Ni. Ni looks for patterns in the past and the present to depict patterns into the future. The Ni-dominant constantly takes in Se data unconsciously so they can form these predictions about the future to the point where they are sometimes stereotyped as being psychic. 

Perhaps it is useful to also look into ESFJ as well.

Introverted Sensing Types

I S T J a n d I S F J



BASIC TYPE DYNAMICS
Dominant Introverted Sensing
Auxiliary Extraverted Thinking or Feeling
Tertiary Feeling or Thinking
Inferior Extraverted Intuition​
_by Naomi L. Quenk​_


*Important Features of Dominant Introverted Sensing
​*
Introverted Sensing types are careful and orderly in their attention to facts and details.They are thorough and conscientious in fulfilling their responsibilities. They may sometimes even do the work of others rather than leave important tasks undone.They are typically seen as well grounded in reality, trustworthy, and dedicated to preserving traditional values and time-honored institutions.With their focus on the reality of the present, they trust the evidence of their senses, relying on carefully accumulated past and present evidence to support their conclusions and planned courses of action.They derive great pleasure from perfecting existing techniques with the goal of maximizing efficiency and cost-effectiveness.

Introverted Sensing types tend to have a skeptical, critical attitude toward information that has not been verified by the senses and are likely to distrust people who are careless about facts, sloppy about details, and apt to favor imagination and novelty over accuracy and solid substantiation.

Both ISTJs and ISFJs are uncomfortable moving beyond sensory experience until they have thoroughly absorbed and understood it.They want to review and assimilate the facts and events of a movie or book before discussing its meaning with others.

In a crisis that does not constellate their inferior function, Introverted Sensing types typically appear calm and unruffled, efficient and pragmatic. Others may marvel at their serene demeanor, but the Introverted Sensing types themselves may report that they are actually feeling quite anxious and distressed and their visible behavior does not accurately reflect their inner state.

*Introverted Sensing Types at Work
*​
An ideal, energizing work environment for Introverted Sensing types is one in which they can achieve goals and reach closure on tasks in an efficient, timely manner in quiet, organized surroundings.They prefer minimal conflict and competition among co-workers and want to be recognized for their knowledge and contributions to the organization—a desire that may remain unfulfilled because they often work in the background of organizations.

ISTJs and ISFJs value and support organizational change that is based on solid information and careful reasoning, but they see little sense in change for its own sake, or for brainstorming with no attention to realistic limitations.They want what they do at work to make a difference. One ISTJ said that what energized her was “accomplishing tasks and improving processes in some way.”An ISFJ teacher described as energizing “relating to the children on a personal level—figuring out what approach to learning works best for them; having a child feel successful because I utilized a strategy.”An ISTJ woman described an energizing environment as having “a combination of people interactions and reading and writing; a serene office and busy hallways; good light and lots of filing space.”

*Important Features of Dominant Extraverted Intuition​*

The qualities associated with Extraverted Intuition that are relevant to our
discussion of its form as an inferior function are
• Comfortable inattention to sense data
• Flexibility, adaptability, risk taking
• Optimism about future possibilities

*The Everyday Extraverted Intuition
of Introverted Sensing Types​*


The inferior function affects Introverted Sensing types in several different ways. These include everyday sensitivities, projections, and ways of relaxing, as well as the dramatic manifestations that can be seen when the inferior function erupts and a full-blown episode occurs, or when an ISTJ or ISFJ is chronically in the grip because of long-term stress.

*
Typical Sensitivities and Projections​*
Inferior Extraverted Intuition seems to color the everyday personality of Introverted Sensing types.They see themselves and are seen by others as worriers.They are ready to notice and comment on negative possibilities even in everyday, nonstressful situations.A new plan, a previously unexperienced event—anything new—is likely to elicit a list of all the many negative possibilities or all the many things that might go wrong. Anything that is not grounded in past or present experience is suspect. In a work situation, Introverted Sensing types’ focus on the negative may prove frustrating to their Intuitive colleagues, who may see them as impossibly rigid and stodgy.They may, however, merely need time to reflect and recognize the connections between anticipated new experiences and the known past. Once that connection is made, the ISTJ or ISFJ can be comfortable pursuing actions that initially may have seemed potentially dangerous. Colleagues who can be helpful in providing such connections will likely find the effort quite successful.

As parents, Introverted Sensing types may appear unreasonably overprotective, especially in situations in which the child wants to do something new, test his or her independence, or take any degree of risk.The untried and untested may automatically raise the specter of disaster, despite the parents’ awareness that they may be overreacting to a reasonable request.

A 10-year-old boy asked his ISFJ mother if he could spend the night at his friend’s house. “Where will you sleep?” his mother asked. “He has bunk beds,” the child replied.“You can’t go, then.You’ll convince him to let you sleep in the top bunk, and you’re not used to sleeping on the top. You’ll fall off and break your leg. No!”

Although this is often the initial parental response to minor risk taking, children of Introverted Sensing parents report that when their parents receive additional factual information and reassurance about precautions, they often amend their original decisions.

In projecting their inferior Extraverted Intuition onto others, ISTJs and ISFJs are likely to see Intuitive types as totally ungrounded, unrealistic, and irresponsible in their focus on possibilities and theories. Introverted Sensing types’ own inexperienced Intuition is thus attributed to those in whom Intuition is developed and practiced. Their unease with the unknown may also manifest in suspiciousness about others’ motives and fears that the environment will somehow betray them. They may thus see Extraverted Intuitive types’ natural comfort with the outer world as foolish risk-taking, judging them to be irresponsible, immature show-offs.

ISTJs and ISFJs may engage in self-pity, blaming the outer environment and other people for whatever difficulties they are experiencing. This is in marked contrast to their typical willingness to accept responsibility and solve problems calmly and methodically.

*Expressions Through Interests and Hobbies​*
Poetry, music, and art may provide a way for Introverted Sensing types to engage their “other side.”Their choice of artists and styles within the arts may tend toward the expressive and dramatic, and they often prefer romantic musicians and artists.The favorite opera of one rather austere and conventional ISTJ is La Boheme.

Some Introverted Sensing types are attracted to astrology and the more occult spiritual movements.The evidence presented for such systems often involves detailed eyewitness testimony collected over long periods.

Perhaps this Sensing method lends the data legitimacy, thus providing a comfortable, acceptable way to develop familiarity with the vagaries of Intuition. In some ISTJs and ISFJs, interest in such areas can become excessive and obsessive and may be an attempt to control unruly, disorganized, and frightening eruptions of Intuition.However, as long as it does not take too much energy away from the person’s dominant Introverted Sensing, even such interest may prove adaptive.

Introverted Sensing types may enjoy relaxing their use of Sensing by reading fantasy fiction, watching science fiction movies, or entertaining themselves with idle speculation and daydreams. One ISTJ described his hobbies as astronomy, painting, and gardening. He identified his fascination with Hubble telescope photos as engaging his Intuition is a very satisfying way: “It opens a whole new dynamic, evolving universe.” He wondered what would come of this. Another ISTJ very much enjoys reading adventure stories with animal characters, such as The Wind in the Willows.

*
Eruptions of Inferior Extraverted Intuition
​*
*Typical Provocations or Triggers​*

Issues of reality are likely to push the inferior “button” of Introverted Sensing types. Dealing with people whose approach denies facts and actualities (often identified as Extraverted Intuitive types) serves as a trigger for eruptions of harsh, negative, extreme reactions to whatever is being proposed. With the usual preconditions in operation, even slight deviations from present reality or minor suggestions for future change will provoke

Introverted Sensing types to intractable anger and stubborn immovability. One ISFJ said,“If I’m watching the devastating effects of an ongoing crisis and someone says to me,‘Don’t worry, everything is going to be fine,’ I come unglued. I steamroll over the person and mow them down!”

An ISTJ reported that her usual calm demeanor is replaced by cold fury and biting sarcasm when someone tries to contradict the evidence of her senses:“I’m seeing and smelling the ash from this guy’s cigar and smelling the smoke on his breath and he’s telling me he doesn’t smoke cigars!”

The prospect of unknown, previously unexperienced activities and situations is a common trigger for Introverted Sensing types.The anxiety associated with the unfamiliar and unimaginable future acts directly on their most unconscious arena. Making careful contingency plans and giving attention to details normally tempers such an unconscious reaction.

But when the new possibility comes up suddenly, an inferior function response is likely. An ISTJ described this provocation:
_
When I have to do something that is a completely new experience—for example, fly to a city I’ve never been to, move to a different city, attend a workshop on a topic I know nothing about. Any situation in which I don’t have a clear picture of what I can expect and what is expected of me.The before and waiting period is always worse. Once I’m doing it, I’m fine.​_

“Overdoing” their own type may also provoke an inferior “grip” response in ISTJs and ISFJs.When this takes the form of doing other people’s assigned duties, working long and hard, and feeling unappreciated or taken for granted, the stage is set for an extreme, spontaneous eruption of inferior Extraverted Intuition. “I get to feeling used and abused,” said an ISFJ. “Then I explode and say awful things that I’m embarrassed about later.”


*Triggers and Stressors at Work​*
Stressful work environments for Introverted Sensing types are those that are chaotic, noisy, and disorganized; where the rules and procedures frequently change, their work is often interrupted, they are criticized for “lacking vision” or “resisting change,” and they are not recognized for their substantial and consistent work for the organization. ISTJs and ISFJs are quite uncomfortable with unsubstantiated, sweeping statements that lead to decisions at work. ISTJs tend to be more distressed when a system is involved and ISFJs when people will be affected. However, both types find it stressful to do tasks that require Intuition, especially when they have insufficient time to think things through.The teacher quoted earlier in this chapter described as stressful “writing narrative reports, constant interruptions, figuring out what to do with unplanned time.”

Introverted Sensing types find an overwhelming workload to be the most important stressor in their work environment. Having too much to do inevitably affects their ability to live up to their own high standards of performance. One ISTJ said that his strong work ethic forced him to complete his work, but, as a result, he had no time for other things. For other Introverted Sensing types, not having sufficient information to do a good job is equally stressful. One ISFJ teacher cited the following as work stressors: “working with students when I’m not clear on who they are and the new material I’m supposed to teach them.”

A source of stress mentioned frequently by ISTJ women is dealing with incompetence at work. Having too much to do appears to be secondary to this stressor for them. One ISTJ woman provided the following very detailed description of work stress, which incorporates many of the issues mentioned by other Introverted Sensing types:
_Back-to-back meetings. 

Having to deal with meeting or workshop details while also having to lead a discussion that is hypothesis-like or strategic in nature. 
Having to check sloppy work of others or deal with another department that maintains low standards. 
I have to watch myself because I tend to “fix” others’ incompetencies.​_

Too much interacting with people can also be stressful for ISTJs and ISFJs, especially if a great deal of talking occurs.They are likely to view too much talking and too many meetings as wasting time they could be devoting to accomplishing things. The same impatience relates to being interrupted when they are concentrating on tasks, and to lack of followthrough by co-workers. In fact, anything that prevents or slows achieving closure in their areas of responsibility creates stress for Introverted Sensing types.

In a work situation in which the particular stressors for Introverted Sensing types continue over long periods, ISTJs and ISFJs may respond quickly and intensely to the triggers described here. This increases the likelihood that their subsequent demonstrations of “grip” behavior will be frequent and pervasive.When persistent stress causes them to be chronically in the grip of inferior Extraverted Intuition, they are likely to lose touch with their natural talent for assessing reality and their practical grasp of problems.They may become habitual “naysayers,” spreading doom and gloom throughout the workplace.

*
The Form of the Inferior Function
​*
Younger Introverted Sensing types, like other Introverted types, report becoming more sociable, outgoing, or outspoken as part of their grip experience.This is especially true for young men, and to a lesser extent for young women. “I’m more outspoken and friendly,” said a 21-year-old male ISTJ about his grip experiences. “I’m also more into people’s needs and how they feel. I guess I’m more of a ‘people person.’”An ISTJ young woman said,“I’m more sensitive and understanding, more outspoken and outgoing.” Introverted Sensing types often report that their increased sociability occurs in social situations in which they feel comfortable. An ISTJ is his mid-thirties said he becomes “outgoing, daring, dancing the gorilla dance, whereas I’m usually reserved and calculated.”This is stimulated by festive, comfortable occasions with family and friends. Some young Introverted Sensing types, however, report going too far, becoming loud and obnoxious in social situations.

ISTJs and ISFJs of all ages also report a high frequency of becoming more withdrawn, angry, irritable, and pessimistic when in the grip. However, there are some notable differences by auxiliary function and gender.

ISTJ and ISFJ men tend to report becoming angry, while women report withdrawing from others. ISTJ women report becoming both pessimistic and scattered, while ISFJ women mention becoming more irritable, emotional, and worried.

Introverted Sensing types’ characteristic task orientation and calm attention to responsibilities begin to disappear as they move further into the grip. “I feel like I’m in a fog of sand and can’t absorb details around me,” said an ISTJ. As their hold on their dominant and auxiliary further diminishes, command over dominant Introverted Sensing is lost. If this state persists, the qualities of inferior Extraverted Intuition manifest in a loss of control over facts and details, impulsiveness, and catastrophizing. For ISTJs, tertiary Feeling combines with inferior Intuition so that the negative possibilities are focused on important relationships with loved ones. The tertiary Thinking of ISFJs contributes the “logic” used to support negative possibilities regarding career, money, natural disasters, and so on.

Two qualities of the negative, inferior forms of Extraverted Intuition (loss of control over facts and details, and catastrophizing) are reflected in Jung’s (1976a) description of the inferior function of ISTJs and ISFJs:

_Whereas true extraverted intuition is possessed of singular resourcefulness, a “good nose” for objectively real possibilities, this archaisized intuition has an amazing flair for all the ambiguous, shadowy, sordid, dangerous possibilities lurking in the background.​_

*Loss of Control over Facts and Details ​*
Effective dominant Extraverted Intuitive types are comfortable glossing over facts and details as they focus on the complexities of an engaging new idea. Their strength lies in emphasizing generalities; the particulars can be dealt with later. In the grip of inferior Extraverted Intuition, however, Introverted Sensing types’ relationship to details becomes problematic. As they begin to lose trust in dominant Sensing and auxiliary Thinking or Feeling, ISTJs and ISFJs have difficulty attending to relevant factual information and arriving at rational conclusions.

On the last afternoon of a difficult training session, an ISTJ imagined that a small group exercise in which trainees practiced their presentation skills was preparation for each class member to give a presentation to the entire class. He became anxious and agitated as the time to return to the workshop room approached. He later admitted that he did not feel adequately prepared to present the material publicly and feared he would be humiliated.What he failed to recognize was that no such activity was listed on the schedule (Sensing data) and that with only sixty minutes left in the workshop, thirty-five people could not possibly make presentations (Thinking judgment). His general anxiety and fatigue at the end of a stressful day contributed to his abandonment of his Sensing and Thinking functions.

*Impulsiveness​*

Flexibility and adaptability are assets to effective dominant Extraverted Intuitive types. These qualities permit them to manage the multiple activities and interests characteristic of their operating style. 

As expressions of inferior Extraverted Intuition, however, these same qualities take on an aspect of thoughtlessness and impulsiveness, not unlike the qualities ISTJs and ISFJs project onto dominant Extraverted Intuitive types. When they experience a gradual slide into their inferior function, Introverted Sensing types may become uncharacteristically spontaneous, sometimes to the point of later judging themselves irresponsible and reckless.

One ISFJ reported giving in to the urge to leave work in the middle of the day and go to the movies. An ISTJ made a spur-of-the-moment decision to buy a new computer before thoroughly researching the options. He returned the computer later, assessing the purchase as rash and foolish.

Introverted Sensing types may experience increasing lack of focus, confusion, anxiety, and even panic, even though their demeanor remains calm and seemingly unperturbed.Their uncharacteristic spontaneity, however, may come out in snappishness and terse, hurtful comments to others, or in out-of-character behavior. After being divorced by his wife of twenty years, an ISTJ dated forty different women in six months. It was as if his inexperienced Intuition went haywire and his tertiary Feeling judgment was unequal to the task of deciding among the overwhelming relationship possibilities available.

*Catastrophizing​*

Whereas effective dominant Extraverted Intuitive types thrive on the exciting possibilities the future will bring, Introverted Sensing types in the grip of inferior Extraverted Intuition anticipate the future with fear and trembling. As their descent into the grip proceeds, they become ever more negative, less willing to tolerate the unfamiliar, and more wildly imaginative about disastrous outcomes. One ISFJ described this as “awfulizing.”

In its full-blown state, inferior Extraverted Intuition anticipates all the catastrophes that might happen in an unsafe, threatening world and focuses on dire possibilities in the future. (Remember that the other Introverted perceiving types, the Introverted Intuitive types, focus on negative realities in the present.) ISTJs and ISFJs imagine that anything not previously experienced—any unfamiliar place, any new activity—will provoke horrifying consequences. In the full grip of their inferior function, even familiar, previously safe areas may be reassessed as fraught with danger. This level
of catastrophizing is the hallmark of inferior Extraverted Intuition.

“I start imagining a lot of terrible things that could happen,” said an ISTJ.“If I tell anybody what I’m thinking, the usual response is,‘you worry too much,’ or ‘don’t think about that.’ I appear emotional, not my usual controlled self. I am not being realistic, which I always pride myself on being, but borderline ridiculous,” she concluded. An ISFJ school choir director is usually in a good mood when she awakens—except when a choir performance is scheduled for that day. On such occasions, she experiences a general feeling of dread and impending disaster, even though there is no specific content associated with her forebodings.

After having knee surgery, which resulted in a good deal of pain and immobility, an ISTJ was convinced that he would never feel any better:“I couldn’t stop expressing my pessimism and was a real pain to one and all. Before that I’d always been a pretty optimistic person.” In fact, research evidence supports this ISTJ’s experience. ISTJs and ISFJs are among the types most frequently treated for chronic pain.

An increase in fatigue and stress often lowers Introverted Sensing types’ tolerance and patience in the face of others’ inattention to or denial of important facts and details. A full-blown exhibition of negative possibilities is likely to ensue. One ISFJ said, “I am given to very sarcastic humor, slashing and unpredictable explosions of cold, hard statements about here-and-now reality. I get stubborn and let loose a negative barrage covering all the bad consequences of what is being proposed.”

When her work situation becomes particularly stressful, another ISFJ’s recurrent fear is that her most recent promotion will be rescinded, or that she will receive a letter from her college informing her that her degree was granted by mistake and they are going to have to take it back.

One evening in May, an ISTJ returned home tired after a long day of hiking in the mountains. Distressed to discover that his garage door would not open, he immediately imagined all the possible negative effects—he would have trouble getting to work on time, he wouldn’t be able to go on vacation in the summer, and he certainly could not make it to his niece’s wedding in August!

Introverted Sensing types report having strange or paranoid thoughts when they are in this state, feeling overwhelmed and irritable and imagining that a current stressful situation will go on forever, as will their inability to handle both the stress and the situation.Alternatively, they may come up with off-the-wall, unrealistic positive possibilities when faced with unfamiliar situations.They then must deal with the extreme disappointment that results when the positive possibilities don’t materialize. 

For example, an ISTJ was quite attracted to a young woman he met and talked with briefly at a party one evening. He planned to get her phone number from his friend so he could ask her out. He imagined where they would go, what they would talk about, and how pleasant their date would be. On calling his friend, therefore, he was upset to learn that the young woman was engaged to be married and had left town that morning to return home to plan her wedding.

One ISFJ’s description of not being herself includes all three forms of inferior Extraverted Intuition:

_I ignore facts and details—create monstrous, horrible outcomes that have far-reaching impacts (for instance, in my lifetime and my daughter’s lifetime). I dwell exclusively on these “realities.” I believe that I need to act right now, this moment (for instance, leave my husband or quit my job). Generally, I am very loyal and steadfast, however.​_

*Lengthy Episodes in the Grip​*
The types of episodes described above are experienced by ISTJs and ISFJs as temporary states during which they are vulnerable to the three forms in which their inferior function is expressed. However, when Introverted Sensing types are chronically in the grip of inferior Extraverted Intuition, inferior function behavior may become habitual. Their typical hesitation to accept change and their desire for data to back up decisions may become extreme and take the form of angry accusations about the disasters others are perpetrating at work or at home. Their work output is likely to suffer because their judgment about what to pursue is distorted by being in the grip. Even their typical calm demeanor in the face of stress is gone, and others are likely to see their worry, negativity, and catastrophizing most of the time.

Continued stress takes its toll on ISTJs and ISFJs, who are likelier than other types to report having hypertension or heart disease. Chronic stress may be more prevalent for these two types because of the increasingly rapid change that characterizes the workplace and the world at large.

Leaving a stressful work or home environment may be quite difficult for Introverted Sensing types because of their natural loyalty, persistence in spite of adversity, and devotion to duty and responsibility. If they do recognize the unreasonableness of the demands made on them and manage to leave bad situations, they may discover a newfound freedom and a greater ability to accurately assess bad work and home situations.

Chronic grip behavior may lead the individual and others to believe that he or she is typically sloppy and forgetful of details, impulsive, and habitually focused on negative possibilities. This was the case in the last story in the next section, where a supervisor new to a company clashed with a longtime ISFJ employee who had been in the grip for some time.

Since the process of becoming chronically in the grip is often gradual, even people who have known the person in a nonstressed state are likely not to notice what, in retrospect, will be recognized as a radical alteration of personality. The person will appear to be a rather exaggerated, poorly developed Extraverted Intuitive type.

Bear in mind, however, that there are occasions when a lengthy time in the grip of inferior Extraverted Intuition can stimulate new awareness and positive growth toward completion and individuation. Remember that Jung saw the inferior function as the doorway to the unconscious and an important part of the self-regulating capacity of our psyches.

*ESFP’s New Experience or ISFJ’s Worst Nightmare?
​*Annette, an ISFJ, and Dan, an ESFP, were having a drink before dinner in a revolving cocktail lounge at the top of a twenty-story hotel in Texas. The clear glass walls on all sides of the lounge gave customers a full view of the city. It was an early August evening. As they talked, the skies darkened, heavy clouds appeared, and the wind started blowing very hard.

_Dan, leaning against the glass outer wall, said,“Hey, this is great. I can feel the glass vibrating from the wind!”
“Let’s go inside the main part of the restaurant,” said Annette.
“Why would you want to do that? We won’t have the beautiful view,” said Dan.
“I want to move away from all this glass and go into the central part where the restaurant is,” insisted Annette.
Dan was puzzled.“But I don’t understand why,” he said.
“Because it’s August—we’re in Texas, the wind is blowing hard, those clouds look ominous, and it’s tornado season!” she declared vehemently.
Replied Dan, “But if there’s a tornado, this is a wonderful place to watch it from!”

_​*Return of Equilibrium​*

Introverted Sensing types tend to make excellent use of their knowledge about their inferior function reactions. 

Both male and female ISTJs and ISFJs consistently report that they need time alone in order to regain their equilibrium, but how they use that time may differ by auxiliary function and gender. For example, female ISTJs report wanting to reflect on, reframe, and solve the problem (auxiliary Thinking) that caused their stress. An ISTJ woman said,“I think logically— or decide what the possibilities might be. Once I’ve accepted them, I’m prepared, even for the negative ones.” Another ISTJ said she needs “some quiet time, and then for someone to slowly ask me questions and slowly play back what they’re hearing from me. I also need acknowledgment that I’m struggling—someone else who can label my plight.”

For one ISFJ woman, the helpful “alone” time is spent “rehashing how I would have handled the situation (in my mind), relive it a better way. Analyze why I was reacting the way I did.” Both auxiliary Feeling and tertiary Thinking are called upon to aid her in this process.Another ISFJ perhaps uses both auxiliary Feeling and tertiary Thinking to “figure out how I got to not being myself in the first place.”Yet another ISFJ engages auxiliary Feeling when she “reads materials that are personally moving—that is, spiritual things to get back in touch with my feelings.”

It is interesting to note that female ISFJs (in contrast with male ISFJs and male and female ISTJs) want the support and reassurance of others (auxiliary Feeling) after they spend some time alone. It is also interesting that male and female ISTJs and male ISFJs typically cite physical exercise as important in aiding their return to normal, but female ISFJs rarely mention it —although some describe using deep breathing to calm themselves down. The natural pathway out of the inferior function for Introverted Sensing types seems to be through their auxiliary Extraverted Thinking or Feeling. This may take the general form of engaging in physical activity with others or perhaps changing their environment. ISTJs report using their Thinking to remind them of what is real—that they can take control and that things always work out. ISFJs find it helpful when they (with great difficulty) talk to someone and reveal their irrational fears, and then receive quiet reassurance.

As with other types, ISTJs and ISFJs report needing to “hit bottom” before they can extricate themselves comfortably from a grip experience. One ISFJ used the metaphor of being sucked into a whirlpool. “The worst thing to do is fight it,” he said.“That will guarantee you’ll drown. Instead, you have to let yourself be drawn into it and pulled all the way down to the bottom.Then you will emerge alive.”

Introverted Sensing types also report needing others to take them seriously, not to patronize them or judge them as irrational. Being allowed to vent with an active listener who resists offering solutions is useful. Unobtrusive help with some of the overwhelming details contributing to the Introverted Sensing type’s fatigue and stress is also welcome. 


*Knowledge from Grip Experiences​*
In addition to learning to recognize and avoid the stress and fatigue that may lead to a grip experience, Introverted Sensing types, even prior to their midlife development, are able to broaden their perspective and become more accepting of others’ different approaches to life tasks. They report a greater willingness to consider what is important to themselves as well as to others in deciding what goals to pursue and how to use their time. This inclusion of a range of possibilities and other ways of doing things enables them to benefit from their Intuition, as well as to accept and
use theories and hypotheses they might otherwise reject as unrealistic.

When stress either at work or at home is extreme and persists over time, Introverted Sensing types may persevere longer than some other types before they consider leaving the stressful situation.They are likely to believe that the stress they are experiencing is uniquely theirs and that others in the same situation are handling things much better.They may see that their opposite types at work (ENTPs and ENFPs) seem to thrive on stress, change, and upheaval and thus may view themselves as weak and inadequate. It may take a crisis situation such as becoming physically ill, having an emotional breakdown, or being confronted by family members for them to recognize that they are in a habitually out-of-character state. Only then might they realistically assess the role of their environment in their plight and consider a drastic change.

*Summary​*

In the grip of inferior Extraverted Intuition, Introverted Sensing types lose control over facts and details, become impulsive, and catastrophize about the unknown, especially the future. Auxiliary Thinking or Feeling aids their return to equilibrium. ISTJs use objective analysis to begin to control their anxious imaginings, while ISFJs solicit the reassurance of trusted companions and friends to modify their perceptions.

As a result of important bouts with inferior Extraverted Intuition, Introverted Sensing types recognize and incorporate a broader, more flexible perspective into their lives.They are better able to stand back from the absorbing tasks and responsibilities of daily living and consider what is most important to them. Often the awareness involves a renewed appreciation of family and other close relationships.

Extraverted Feeling Types
*E S F J a n d E N F J*

*BASIC TYPE DYNAMICS*
_Dominant Extraverted Feeling
Auxiliary Introverted Sensing or Intuition
Tertiary Intuition or Sensing
Inferior Introverted Thinking_​
_*Important Features of Dominant Extraverted Feeling​*_

Extraverted Feeling (Fe) types typically radiate goodwill and enthusiasm.They are optimistic about life in general, and human potential in particular.They prefer to focus on the positive, harmonious, and uplifting aspects of people and human relations, paying little attention to negative, pessimistic, limiting, and divisive messages, situations, and conclusions.Their primary goal is to create and maintain good feeling and harmony among people.

Although ESFJs and ENFJs may recognize judgments that rely heavily on logical analysis, cause-and-effect relationships, and statistical odds, they largely ignore such factors in making decisions. Others may therefore see these types as making decisions that “fly in the face of logic.” Thinking types may be particularly puzzled and frustrated when an Extraverted Feeling type accurately describes the logical conclusions warranted by a situation but decides in favor of harmony and caring. From a Thinking point of view, using such a criterion in decision making is inappropriate.

Extraverted Feeling types are careful not to hurt others’ feelings and try to take others’ well-being into account. If they cannot avoid telling someone an unpleasant truth, they will carefully soften the message by putting it in an affirmative context. Unconditional positive regard is a strongly held value.

As a result of their natural pleasure in pleasing others, Extraverted Feeling types can mistakenly be seen as overly caring or even codependent. In reality, attending to others’ needs is usually a satisfying, legitimate way of expressing their dominant Feeling preference.

In a crisis that does not activate their inferior function, ESFJs and ENFJs focus on alleviating the concerns and suffering of others.They are comfortable letting others manage the more technical aspects of a crisis so they can devote their energies to creating a cooperative, comfortable atmosphere for crisis victims. When a situation demands more forceful methods, however, they will take any action necessary for the benefit of others.


*The Everyday Introverted Thinking
of Extraverted Feeling Types​*

The inferior function affects Extraverted Feeling types in several different ways. These include their everyday sensitivities, projections, and ways of relaxing, as well as the dramatic manifestations that can be seen when the inferior erupts and a full-blown episode occurs, or when an ESFJ or ENFJ is chronically in the grip because of long-term stress.


_*Typical Sensitivities and Projections​*_

Extraverted Feeling types can be particularly sensitive about others’ assessment of their intellectual competence. Although they don’t usually doubt their abilities, they may worry that they have not communicated their knowledge clearly. In comparing themselves to others, they may see themselves as slow to learn and lacking in analytical facility.Though many, especially ENFJs, are high achievers, some feel they are at a disadvantage in highly intellectual and technical endeavors.

This sensitivity about their intellectual competence makes Extraverted Feeling types particularly attuned to comments that could be interpreted as reflecting on their adequacy. In the early stages of an inferior function episode, this may manifest as a projection onto others of their own feared incompetence.They may notice and comment on others’ inaccuracies and their failure to recognize reality and confront the truth.

Such projection can be seen in the intensity with which they criticize others’ behavior, particularly in the area of control. An ESFJ became furious whenever her INTP supervisor barged into her office and interrupted her to talk about whatever was important to him at the time. In reflecting on her reaction, she realized that she herself needed to resist barging in on others and demanding their attention when she had a problem to solve or was upset about something.

Extraverted Feeling types may be quick to identify other people’s illogical behavior, but they may apply a different set of criteria to their own equally nonlogical actions.An ENFJ complained that his INFP wife’s art studio was not set up systematically.“You really should put things into some logical order so they’ll be right there when you need them,” he told her. She replied that her current system suited her way of working. “But it’s just not rational,” he responded. When his wife likened the “disorganization” he perceived in her studio to his illogical way of organizing his household chores—his inefficient way of ordering tasks and his tendency to leave tasks half done—he insisted that this was not the same thing.“The cleaning gets done, doesn’t it?” he said heatedly. “My artwork gets done, too,” she replied. He remained blind to the similarity.


*Expressions Through Interests and Hobbies​*

Perhaps because the demands of their daily work and home lives require them to use their less-preferred processes, Extraverted Feeling types seem to choose recreational activities that engage their dominant and auxiliary functions rather than their tertiary or inferior ones.They enjoy such activities as entertaining, playing bridge, participating in group sports, and generally socializing. A hardworking, highly regarded ENFJ district attorney loved to organize large dinner parties that brought together people from different parts of her busy life. Extraverted Feeling types are often avid readers who enjoy discussing books with friends or becoming active members of book groups.

Home improvement hobbies are also quite satisfying to Extraverted Feeling types. Sewing, crafting, building, carpentry, decorating, and gardening are often mentioned as enjoyable activities. ESFJs and ENFJs may be great joiners of civic, political, or school-related groups and tend to willingly take on leadership roles. One ESFJ, who enjoys a demanding career, takes pleasure in cooking elaborate meals for others,working in her garden so it will look beautiful, and writing lengthy letters to old friends— all activities that give her special joy because she has so little time for them.

ESFJs and ENFJs may also enthusiastically support the work, interests, and hobbies of their spouses and/or children, taking great pleasure in developing at least some expertise in the relevant areas. One ENFJ learned all he could about his wife’s research area and was as genuinely excited as she was when the results fit her hypotheses.


*Eruptions of Inferior Introverted Thinking​*

When one or more of the preconditions for an eruption of the inferior function are present, Introverted Thinking appears in its more exaggerated, disruptive form. 

*Typical Provocations or Triggers​*

Extraverted Feeling types respond with inferior Introverted Thinking when they perceive they are being misunderstood, not trusted, not taken seriously, or pressured to conform to some prevailing view with which they disagree. In fact, any situation in which conflict persists and remains unresolved can activate the inferior function of ESFJs and ENFJs. Being unable to use their natural preferences can also serve as a provocation since it arouses their sensitivity about their competence. An ESFJ mentioned as triggers “too many things to do all at once; short time frames, extra responsibilities and tasks that require me to think on my own and don’t allow me to bounce ideas off of others.”

When asked what provoked being “beside himself,” an ENFJ responded, “too many demands and feeling that I’m not appreciated, that I’m being taken for granted, and that what I do doesn’t matter to anyone.” 

Another ENFJ cited “impersonal treatment, criticism, and not being appreciated for my contribution.” An ESFJ said “when people disagree with my point of view and attack me personally.”Another cited “if I can’t get my point across no matter how hard I try; when I’m not allowed to talk something out to get it resolved.”

ESFJs and ENFJs recognize that disagreements can arise and that criticism is a necessary aspect of working with people. However, the way in which critiquing and conflict are handled makes a difference. An ENFJ stated that what could provoke an inferior function response for her was “criticism that is delivered in an unfeeling way—or when I find out that I have done something that hurt another person and the person doesn’t tell me until months later.”

*Triggers and Stressors at Work​*

Work environments that force conformity to values that are contrary to those of the Extraverted Feeling type, that place other concerns above the welfare of people, and that fail to recognize the individual contributions and value of employees are very stressful for ESFJs and ENFJs. For one ESFJ, the work demands that are most stressful are “high technology, strong competition between work peers, a lack of opportunity to show my strengths, and being placed in situations in which I am constantly using
my inferior function.” 

Conflict in the workplace is also upsetting for Extraverted Feeling types.Working with uncooperative or undermining people and dealing with an overwhelming workload are particularly stressful for ESFJs. Female ENFJs often mention dealing with details, general disorganization, and lack of recognition as quite stressful. One cited “details, proofreading—routine detail tasks,” and another, “plowing through detail” as sources of work stress.

In work situations in which the particular stressors for Extraverted Feeling types continue over long periods, ESFJs and ENFJs may respond quickly and intensely to the triggers described here. This increases the likelihood that their subsequent demonstrations of “grip” behavior will be frequent and pervasive.When persistent stress causes them to be chronically in the grip of inferior Introverted Thinking, they are likely to lose touch with their natural optimism and trust in human potential and become negative, critical, and judgmental toward everything and everyone around them.


*The Form of the Inferior Function​*

Some Extraverted Feeling types mention becoming uncharacteristically logical and analytical, with a tendency to think before they speak, when they are in the grip of their inferior function. Such experiences of Introverted Thinking are not generally seen as either positive or negative—merely as strangely different. Perhaps the prevailing societal favoring of Extraversion over Introversion makes Introverted forays into Extraversion (note the comments for Introverted Feeling types and Introverted Thinking types) more appealing to Introverts than the converse experience of Introversion for Extraverts.

For Extraverted Feeling types, the more obviously distressing aspects of “losing” their dominant Extraverted function seem more prominent. Falling into the grip for them is preceded by a diminution or an absence of characteristic Extraverted Feeling qualities. General optimism, enthusiasm, and interest in people give way to low energy, pessimism, and depression.

Uncharacteristic withdrawal from usual activities and becoming highly critical of others are consistent responses for male and female ESFJs and ENFJs. “I’m different in being Introverted. I don’t make contact, call friends, go to social events, meetings, the theater. I may accept an invitation, but only if someone urges me.

I get concerned about my health. I have no plans, no vision, the future is bleak. I am numb, without feeling or zest for life,” said an ESFJ. An ENFJ said, “I am quiet and withdrawn and want to be alone and reflect on what is happening.” Commented another, “I feel phony and uncomfortable, like a fish out of water. I am unable to be my usual spontaneous self.”Another ENFJ said,“I don’t make eye contact. I can’t share what is going on inside me. I feel tight and negative.” An ESFJ said,“I want to be alone—I’m uninterested in anyone else.”

Jung’s (1976a) comment on the inferior function of Extraverted Feeling
types touches on all three of these features:

_The unconscious of this type contains first and foremost a peculiar kind of thinking, a thinking that is infantile, archaic, negative. . . .The stronger the conscious feeling is and the more ego-less it becomes, the stronger
grows the unconscious opposition. . . . The unconscious thinking reaches the surface in the form of obsessive ideas which are invariably of a negative and deprecatory character.​_

Tertiary Sensing and Intuition serve to support the negative judgments that are made.The tertiary Intuition of ESFJs generates vague, negative“hypotheses” that affirm their convoluted “logical” critical stance about themselves and others. ENFJs bring their tertiary Sensing to bear by coming up with negative past and present “facts” that support their complicated and largely illogical critical judgments.

As energy continues to be withdrawn from the dominant and auxiliary functions, inferior Introverted Thinking intrudes in the form of excessive criticism, convoluted logic, and a compulsive search for truth.

*Excessive Criticism​*

Effective dominant Introverted Thinking types critique ideas, products, systems, and methods. The inferior Introverted Thinking of Extraverted Feeling types appears in the form of a sweeping condemnation of people. In the grip of inferior Thinking, ESFJs and ENFJs may “dump” on other people, slam doors, yell, make biting comments, and say terse, blunt, or even cruel things to others. They often become physically tense, grit their teeth, clench their fists, and appear visibly agitated. Both Extraverted Feeling types frequently mention “laying a ‘guilt trip’” on those closest to them as responses to being in the grip.An ESFJ said that her automatic response to anyone’s “excuses” about his or her work is to state emphatically,“Well, it’s not good enough!”

A hostile, negative atmosphere can elicit sharp, biting, even vicious comments from Extraverted Feeling types.They seem to dig in their heels, becoming impervious to either logical or feeling arguments.As one ENFJ described,“I become cranky, judgmental, and angry. I mistrust myself and others. Normally, I instinctively trust everyone. I am different when I am not acting from trust. Often this occurs when I feel I am not trusted or understood, or when there is conflict and tension around me.”

An ESFJ reported becoming steely and caustic; another described herself as being coolly objective when her strongly held feelings were violated. One ESFJ was convinced that everyone took advantage of her good-natured, helpful ISFP husband. She persistently berated him for his weakness and loudly condemned his family and friends for their rude behavior.

“I am like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde,” said an ENFJ, describing his reaction to extreme stress.“My humor becomes inappropriate, meant to shock people. I’ve even been known to throw things while in this frame of mind.” An ESFJ said he becomes “angry, out of control, critical, responding too quickly to others with impatience, cutting a person off when they speak.” “I’m critical rather than seeking harmony, self-protective rather than ‘giving,’” said an ENFJ.

As their Extraverted energy further diminishes, their criticism is internalized, resulting in self-deprecatory judgments. Turning the criticism inward encourages depression, low self-esteem, and guilty embarrassment at revealing what they view as their alien and unacceptable side.


*Convoluted Logic​*

In the grip of inferior Thinking, the Extraverted Feeling types’ attempts at logical analysis take the form of categorical, all-or-none judgments that are often based on irrelevant data. A highly idiosyncratic “logical” model may be developed internally, but the resulting conclusions may violate good logic.

In describing this quality, Marie Von Franz (1971) stated that because Extraverted Feeling types _’Thinking is neglected,“it tends to become negative and coarse. It consists of coarse, primitive Thinking judgments, without the slightest differentiation and very often with a negative tinge”_

“My thinking becomes rigid and I insist on solving problems alone, with none of my typical sharing,” said one ENFJ.“I maintain a front, even though I feel unworthy. I am verbally critical, organize more, and become rigid, perfectionistic, and angry. I want the world to go away.” Another ENFJ described being “inside my head analyzing—adding two and two and getting five and knowing it’s right.”

Elaborate, logical “plots” may be developed by the Extraverted Feeling type in the grip of negative Introverted Thinking.These take the form of complicated and improbable scenarios for dealing with or eliminating the distress or disharmony in question. ESFJs and ENFJs frequently describe making up “stories,” the goal of which is to explain some upsetting event or solve some nagging problem.

An ENFJ recalled that at the age of twelve, she was required to participate in a field day of sporting events. Convinced of her lack of skill in this area, she wanted to avoid embarrassing herself in front of her peers. She plotted various ways to break her leg or ankle, such as falling out of a tree or being run over by a car, but she abandoned her plans, reasoning that she would probably suffer more than minor injury. She also recognized that a lot of pain could be involved. Ironically, her forced participation resulted in her placing third in the broad jump.

Often the source of the problem stimulating the “story” is meanness or criticism directed at the Extraverted Feeling type or a close associate. An ESFJ with a long commute to work was frequently distressed by other drivers’ rude, inconsiderate behavior. He found himself “making up a long and involved story about one particular rude driver, in which I imagined the kind of work he did, his family relationships, the daily events that affected him, and the possible mitigating circumstances that caused his meanness to me.” The imaginary explanation served to restore harmony and allowed the ESFJ to retain his positive valuation of people.

*Compulsive Search for Truth ​*

Dominant Introverted Thinking types value truth as the criterion for judgments and decisions.They use logical analysis to arrive at the most objective truth possible. For Extraverted Feeling types in the grip of inferior Introverted Thinking, seeking absolute, ultimate truth can become an obsession. Many report turning to experts for advice but requiring them to have the “real truth,” or at least the latest knowledge and thinking on the subject.When an expert is not immediately available, they may attempt an internal logical dialogue, often ending up recognizing that their logic is convoluted.This may make them feel frightened, out of control, and despairing of ever extricating themselves from their negative logical conclusions. 

An ENFJ said: 
_I become stuck on an idea and don’t have any perspective about it.The devastating truth of my conclusion is overwhelming. I try to think my way out of this tight box I’m in, but there is no escape from my conclusion. I feel compelled to find someone to tell me what to do.​_

Instead of searching for a specific person who might provide them with needed answers,many Extraverted Feeling types report turning to lectures or books relevant to their current problem; these types are often avid readers of self-help books. ESFJs and ENFJs agree that when stress occurs in some area of their lives, they search bookstore shelves for answers.

One ENFJ had a wall full of books in his office. His colleague wondered how he could possibly have read all of them. The ENFJ reported that when under pressure to solve a big problem, he virtually devours the books, having many of them open at once, searching for expert advice on the problem at hand.

When a stressful area is chronic or serious, Extraverted Feeling types tend to be attracted to support groups. In the company of others having similar experiences, they can find validation for their perceptions, as well as the latest expertise and thinking about the problem area.


_*Lengthy Episodes in the Grip​*_

The types of episodes described above are experienced by ESFJs and ENFJs as temporary states during which they are vulnerable to the three forms in which their inferior function is expressed. However, when Extraverted Feeling types are chronically in the grip of inferior Introverted Thinking, inferior function behavior may become habitual. 

They will then be seen as having a sour, disapproving approach to people and to life in general. Instead of their upbeat and enthusiastic usual selves, others will experience them as gloomy, unhappy people who are reluctant to acknowledge and support optimism and good feeling in others. In this state of chronic, distorted Introverted Thinking, ESFJs and ENFJs become rigidly pedantic, expressing defensiveness and hostility when their often faulty judgment is questioned. Internally, the Extraverted Feeling person applies this same negative assessment to himself or herself. 

A sense of worthlessness and incompetence can become all-consuming, and the Extraverted Feeling type can project this onto others by being hypersensitive to imagined slights and negative assessments. Such a stance can lead to rifts in lifelong friendships that may never be healed.

The auxiliary Intuition of ENFJs may contribute to their reporting a greater variety of coping resources and options for dealing with stress than do ESFJs. ESFJs are particularly vulnerable in situations in which their experience level and self-confidence are already low, especially where they don’t have others to help them. ENFJs report physical stress symptoms. 

Exercise is found to be helpful by both male and female ESFJs and ENFJs, as is talking to someone about issues (especially for female ESFJs). Extraverted Feeling types in general are also clear that they need time alone to reflect on what is happening, often before talking to others.

Chronic grip behavior may lead both the individual and others to believe that pessimism, negativity, and global disapproval are a part of the natural makeup of an ESFJ or ENFJ and that he or she has always been that way. Since the process of becoming chronically in the grip is often gradual, even people who have known the person in a non-stressed state are likely not to notice what, in retrospect, will be recognized as a radical alteration of personality. The person will appear to be a rather exaggerated, poorly developed Introverted Thinking type. For example, a woman
had known an ENFJ many years ago but had lost contact with her. She was surprised when an acquaintance mentioned the ENFJ as a work colleague and described her as habitually negative, critical, and pessimistic. “But when I knew her, she was a happy, optimistic person who always saw the bright side of life!” the woman exclaimed.Apparently, the intervening years had been fraught with disappointment and loss for this ENFJ, leading to chronic grip behavior.

However, there are also occasions when a lengthy time in the grip of inferior Introverted Thinking can stimulate new awareness and positive growth toward completion and individuation. Remember that Jung saw the inferior function as the doorway to the unconscious and an important part of the self-regulating capacity of our psyches.

_*Return of Equilibrium​*_

Normal access to dominant Feeling returns as Extraverted Feeling types allow new information to enter their consciousness. This may occur through either auxiliary Sensing or Intuition. Experiencing a change of scenery, listening to a friend talk about something interesting or amusing, spending time outdoors, and exercising can all aid the process of return to equilibrium. (Although most of the types find that exercise alleviates stress, Extraverted Feeling types, ENFJs in particular, consistently mention regular exercise as important in tempering both short-term and long-term
stress.) 

One ENFJ said he sometimes needs to take long breaks that allow him to withdraw from his usual hectic schedule and spend time in more solitary study and physical exercise.An ESFJ said that what helps is “humor and laughing and light entertainment.”

Extraverted Feeling types appreciate being encouraged to get involved in projects. ENFJs find it helpful to embark on an ambitious new undertaking, even if they have to force themselves at first; ESFJs may prefer to work on a smaller, detailed project that can be accomplished slowly and methodically.An ENFJ said that returning to herself was aided by “talking with a close friend who reminds me of my strengths and qualities, and starting work on a task with possibilities.” Talking things through with someone who cares seems to be particularly helpful for ESFJ women, but is also helpful for all Extraverted Feeling types.An ENFJ explained,“I need to spend time with someone who gives me feedback and says I’m an okay person—the conflict isn’t because I’ve done something bad.”

ESFJs and ENFJs frequently mention the need to be taken seriously by friends and to be allowed to vent without being talked out of it. Like other types when they are emerging from the grip, Extraverted Feeling types do not appreciate being patronized or dismissed or told “It will be okay; don’t feel like that.”They are being genuine when they say they want to be left alone. An ESFJ said she returns to herself “by spending time alone, working through things in my mind, often getting away from the situation or environment physically.” Writing in a journal can also help them fulfill this function by allowing them to extravert auxiliary Sensing or Intuition on paper. They may get a handle on the problem without fearing external judgment or interference, and also get enough distance and perspective to recognize the tunnel vision with which they have been operating.


*Summary​*

In the grip of inferior Introverted Thinking, Extraverted Feeling types engage in excessive criticism of others as well as themselves, adopt a distorted and convoluted logic, and compulsively search for exacting truth. Auxiliary Sensing or Intuition may help them reestablish their equilibrium.

ESFJs may work on a task requiring systematic attention to detail; ENFJs’ return to equilibrium can be aided by planning new projects.

The new awareness Extraverted Feeling types gain as a result of an important bout with their inferior function often centers on achieving acceptance of the limitations reality imposes on their desire for peace and harmony. They may become better able to evaluate their own logical analyses and face adversity more dispassionately. Their auxiliary Sensing or Intuition can aid in this process. ESFJs may acknowledge previously rejected unpleasant facts, while ENFJs may permit their Intuition to flow into darker possibilities. Both are then able to increase their effectiveness in accomplishing goals important to their value structure.


----------



## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@Acerbusvenator: It is good you ask me to clarify Ni, as it confused me when I was new. Well, it all is terminology, personal meaning does not have to involve any conclusion! The way I mean it involves connection back to your internal storehouse. Hence the term personal. INFJs often report getting sick of facts if they do not connect back to some "deeper" thing, but at the core, that means they could not connect the disparate things to the self using a subjective synthesis. 

I can explain it another way, which is simply intuiting whose connection-forming ultimately is self-referential.

And yes, ISJ can be just as spiritual, and my example was actually exactly saying that. However, it was suggesting how different personalities might go about it. As for religious, I see ISJ as even a tad more likely to be. It allows also for the possibility that they are not spiritual or religious. Just one of many possible scenarios.


----------



## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Also @Acerbusvenator, your example of INFJ paranoia also serves well to illustrate Ni+Fe obsessively synthesizing in a self-referential way, but this time with a reading/categorization of objective stimuli (what someone else said). It does not take it as is or even go directly on past impressions. So yeah, that is a good example too.

We need to give Si credit though, because it is ultimately about the concrete, but together with personal impressions. So it can be used for comparison's sake, which can almost be confused for intuition. 

You sound concerned that I am biased and pushing INFJ out for her. Rest assured, I am open to either. But am wary of SFJ being misunderstood.


----------



## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

bearotter said:


> Also @_Acerbusvenator_, your example of INFJ paranoia also serves well to illustrate Ni+Fe obsessively synthesizing in a self-referential way, but this time with a reading/categorization of objective stimuli (what someone else said). It does not take it as is or even go directly on past impressions. So yeah, that is a good example too.
> 
> We need to give Si credit though, because it is ultimately about the concrete, but together with personal impressions. So it can be used for comparison's sake, which can almost be confused for intuition.
> 
> You sound concerned that I am biased and pushing INFJ out for her. Rest assured, I am open to either. But am wary of SFJ being misunderstood.


Nah, I just wanted it clarified ^_^
Now we have cooperatively clarified Ni :wink: that makes me happy :happy:

Also, as I see it.
The difference between inferior Ne and inferior Se is that inferior Ne is based on something that actually has happened and then assumes that it will keep going like that. Inferior Se however is not based on something that actually exists. It is based on impressions from an over-sensitive Se.
This is also why I think her SO is INFJ, because she didn't want her to go to certain places as if they were marked as dangerous, tho there was no actual earlier experience of that place.
I made a short explanation of that earlier.

ISJs are confident in what has happened, but unsure of the future.
INJs are confident in how they've interpreted things, but not the actual event.

Thus you can't help an ISJ retake control from their inferior by telling them that it probably wasn't that bad (since that's basically offending their dominant function), not can you tell an INJ that the person is over-reacting (since that would be offending the dominant function).
However, you can tell an ISJ that everything will be alright and an INJ that they might have been mistaken. (since it is the inferior function you should dismiss and not the dominant).

I got a lot of this in my head right now @[email protected]


----------



## sodden (Jul 20, 2009)

@LeaT, where'd you get what you posted about ISXJs/EXFJs from? I'd like to read it.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

brainheart said:


> @_LeaT_, where'd you get what you posted about ISXJs/EXFJs from? I'd like to read it.


Google form of the inferior.


----------

