# A Stupid Ti-Ne Users Asking for Advice from Si Users



## INeedToP (Nov 23, 2015)

So, yeah. I stepped into the territory of the unknown. But I desperately need help so here goes nothing.

I actually have created a thread in INTP forum (and unintentionally offended someone during the process) asking for some good advice because I rather clueless on this matter. Before I started, let me make this clear:

1. I'm sincerely asking for help. If you think I in any way am wrong, you don't need to sugarcoat anything. Just tell me what's wrong with me and what should I do.
2. I'm not trolling you, so I hope you won't troll me either.
3. I might offend you in some way. But please forgive me if I sound rude.
4. It might be lengthy.
5. I'm not from an English-speaking country. So expect bad English.

If you're okay with this, then you may proceed:

So okay. *I'm an INTP* living around Guardians with a VERY, VERY strong Si (I'm half Chinese, and if you know Chinese like I do, we have a lot of tradition that sometimes doesn't make sense. No, no offense for Chinese):
1. *My father is an ESTJ.* He holds the Chinese #1 principle that the child (and the wife) should do anything the parents (or husband) ask him/her to. But he really takes it to the next level as he always make us do something for him RIGHT HERE and NOW. And yet, he is so highly critical and will start complaining the moment I start doing what he told me to do.
2. *My mother is an ESFJ* and I LOVED HER, and I KNOW SHE LOVED ME. Only, things don't go well for the both of us. She often misunderstood me. She (maybe) always think I'm this selfish brat with no regards toward other people's feeling. When she was angry, she didn't talk to me and always blame me. She always says "You don't love me!" whenever she is under stress, which is exasperating, because I love her but I have some difficulty to express it due to my Dominant Ti and Inferior Fe.
3. *My younger brother is an ISTJ* who, how should I say, a text book example of ISTJ. He puts alarm for each little thing he does (e.g. eating, changing clothes, bathing). As if it isn't enough, he always thinks he's superior just because of his self-made rule. Also, I study architecture while he computer programming. Architecture is, I think, requires more hard-work. But he often make fun of that because he thinks architecture is all about imagination and nothing concrete.
4. My ex (no longer a problem but I will include just in case) is also an ESFJ who (1) need emotional, physical, and sexual stimulation while I need intellectual stimulation above all those. Worse still, he's very lovey-dovey when I'm almost aromantic (maybe I'm also an asexual. I don't know), and (2) wants me to be the typical Chinese lady-like girl (gentle, soft-spoken, easily cried, etc), and expect me to just be a traditional housewife once we married, while I actually want to purse a higher education.

So here's the problem: My Ne isn't that strong, but living with the Si-users somehow boost its growth, so to speak. It said that the Aux/Parent Function is what we do to 'parent' others, so to speak. So I often use my Ne and 'intuit' for them. I said that you don't necessarily need to stick to one nonsense rule (the old tradition) just because some old ancestors did that, while offering them another possibility on how to get things done.

It always ended up in a heated argument. Their strong Si prevent them from seeing other possibilities just because that's what people always do in the past. But, as if it isn't bad enough, my 6th/Critical Parent/Senex function is Ni, which means that once my Parent Function Ne is rejected, I will use Ni to criticize other. "You will fail!" On one occasion, I told my ISTJ brother to stop all that boring routine. He didn't listen and instead make fun of my advice. Upset, the Ni took control and I blurted "You hope you will die young!" We didn't talk for the rest of that week.

I also love to be alone, contemplating and reflecting and simply thinking. But my parents thinks I'm being lazy and antisocial, and force me to either (1) just get shit done, or (2) join a social club or make friend with others. I told them that I love thinking. Heck, I even told them about MBTI and my Ti as Dominant Function and all they said is "All this MBTI stuff is just excuses for your bad behavior!"

Also, if you know INTP, we are type most likely to neglect personal hygiene, which is a daily problem for us.

But the biggest problem is actually my mother's Fe. I admit she sacrificed a lot for me. And she expect me to love her. Well, that's very easy because who wouldn't love his/her own mother? BUT, it becomes horribly difficult when she expect me to love her THEY WAY SHE WANT TO BE LOVED. I'm an INTP and I rarely talks about emotional stuff. If I love someone, I will provide a solution for her problem, tell her information she will need (like the MBTI type of people around her so that she can understand them more), try to understand her, give more insight and different perspective on matters, and give honest criticism.

Alas, this doesn't turn out well. Whenever I open my mouth, it will always ends up with us arguing with each other. Eventually, I grew tired of this and stopped talking all together. I SERIOUSLY AND LITERALLY DID this. I locked myself in my room, and if I really need something, I will write it on a paper and give it to her.

It has been like this for some days. My inferior Fe telling me that I might hurt her and I feel like shit most of the time, but my dominant Ti telling me that it's the only logical thing to do because 'if I talk, then she will get angry at me'.

And that's it.


So, Si-users, would you please kindly tell me what do you think about my situation? If I act like an asshole toward my family, please don't hesitate to tell me. Please offer some insight to this ignorant soul. I desperately need help because my mother starts acting weird lately, I'm afraid she is under much stress. I just don't know what to do anymore. If I talk, I will hurt her. If I keep silent, I will hurt her. I'm done for. Fe-users, please tell me what to do.

Also, any advice for a long-term improvement? Do I really have to develop my tertiary Si? If that's so, then why should I do ALL the work? Why don't they develop their Ne as well? And while we're at it, how do you Si-users develop your Ne and deal with Ne-users?

Any help would be much appreciated. Please enlighten me.

I apologize if any offense is caused by my rudeness. Thank you.


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## Hottest_Commie_Ever (Nov 11, 2015)

@INeedToP

No, it's not offensive, not to me anyway. I'm actually Chinese, too, and fully Chinese. I'm pretty sure there's been no other culture in our blood.

My mother, who is ISTJ, is getting angry at me for staying on the computer trying to help other people for too long. I really want to give you some good advice now, but i really have to go, so i'll talk to you next time i'm online. And no, you're not being an asshole. What you're doing sounds perfectly natural to me.

Sorry for the hasty reply! Ttyl!


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## Hottest_Commie_Ever (Nov 11, 2015)

Ok, i can talk for maybe five minutes now @INeedToP (btw nice username:wink

Would you prefer if we communicated in Chinese over Private Messages instead of forum posts? I'm not very good at it, but i can type Simplified Chinese and speak Mandarin bcuz my parents insist i know my mother tongue, which is a good point.

Idk if i can give you that much advice though, because i'm not your average traditional ESFJ. I moved to Canada from China when i was 7 years old, so i don't have a good sense of Chinese traditions. I was raised to be loyal and traditional, but because i got to know an entirely different culture way too early on in my life, i got _integrated_ into that culture before i realized i was forgetting my Chinese traditions. But at that point, i didn't _want_ to go back because Canadian culture allows kids to be more free and more *themselves*, and i needed that as a child; my parents were always too busy working hard for survival in a new country to notice me much. I had no sense of identity, and right now, i have no sense of a home country, or a culture. I'm messed up.

This is not very beneficial for my family relationship. I'm constantly criticized and compared negatively to my younger sister who is only four. She grew up in Canada and our parents are teaching her to thrive as a Chinese person in a Canadian environment. I was never taught this way, and now i have all these problems.

But let's get back on topic.

First step: i've noticed that INTPs express their feelings best when its typed up or written down, or expressed in some format that is easy to do when they're alone. Maybe you should try writing something for your mom? I'll help you with your Fe if you'd like


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## Jehneefur (Jun 18, 2013)

My husband is INTP, He says to just understand that your mother is emotional, irrational, and silly so fighting with her will never accomplish anything. If you want to make her feel loved try to find out how she feels loved and just do those things "in a cold and calculating manner." XD


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## INeedToP (Nov 23, 2015)

MessyJessie103 said:


> Ok, i can talk for maybe five minutes now @INeedToP (btw nice username:wink
> 
> Would you prefer if we communicated in Chinese over Private Messages instead of forum posts? I'm not very good at it, but i can type Simplified Chinese and speak Mandarin bcuz my parents insist i know my mother tongue, which is a good point.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but my Chinese is SO HORRIBLE. Because I never really want to learn it in the first place. My parents, though, said that since I'm a (half) Chinese, I have to be able to speak like one. Actually, my English is WAY BETTER than my Chinese (though I'm not English-spoken either). If I have to choose one language that I want to learn, it's Greek (because Socrates, and Plato, and Aristoteles, and pretty much everyone there), or maybe Latin (because, you know, Cogito Ergo Sum)

Anyway, unlike you, I'm just a half Chinese (but it's nice to find another Chinese in PerC!) I never even lived in China. BUT my GRAND-parents (so it has been two generations) migrated from there. So yeah. But we hold the Chinese tradition like crazy. My parents even told me to memorize my great-great-grand parents' name when I was a kid. And pretty much all relatives we have. I don't know why, I'm not even born in China but I was told I have to do this and that JUST BECAUSE. I really want to be integrated into this culture AKA this country where I live in (I live in Indonesia, BTW). Because, I'm an Indonesian first and Chinese second. Well, that's how Si my parents are, and how Ne I am.

I really hate it when Chinese discriminated against the locals here. That's another reason why I don't like their Si. But when I constantly said that they are human beings, just like us, I got a lot of "Well, you just don't understand."

WHAT?

I said we are all the same human being (who only happen to born in a different place) and they say I don't understand things.

Also, about learning Chinese and memorizing our relatives and great-grand-parents. I really hate following all the tradition for the sake of tradition. It sucks. And though no one would believe this, but Chinese society is actually more materialistic than the Western. I wanted to study philosophy, but they say philosopher can't even feed themselves. I wanted to study pure physics, they say I would end up having no money. I wanted to study graphic design, and they say it's won't make that much money. In the end, I studied architecture.

INTPs are said to learn for the sake of learning, and gaining knowledge for the sake of knowledge. Well, that's very true of me. But no one seems to understand this, "You learn so that you will get a degree, get a good job, get well-paid, and become rich!" That's what they always said. No freedom.

So, yeah. That's about Chinese. But I've got over it. I'm an architect now (but I still want to study philosophy and physics and graphic design)

Anyway, sorry for ranting. And as a fellow Chinese, please forgive me if I offend you in anyway.


So okay, let's get on topic.

Yes, I figured that out too and I started to write 

Problem is, I don't know what should I write. My mother loves writting poem. Should I write one for her? I can't say I'm good at it but I can try.

And another problem: I have this fear of being a fake as I write. I have a (not really that bad) traumatic experience with love letter. The ESFJ guy whom I dated LOVED writting letters and all of them sounded cheesy (please don't take offense. I'm in NO WAY saying all ESFJs are cheesy. My mom is an ESFJ and she's an excellent poet without sounding cheesy) and fake. It sounded even more fake once he started threaten me: "if you don't call me twice a day for 2 hours each, I won't love you anymore!"

When I write, I really want to pour out my feeling. But I don't know I how to sound genuine while at the same time pouring ALL the emotions that has bottled up inside me. Of course I can say the plain 'I love you'. That's sounds genuine. But that can't express my feeling.

And it's even harder if I want to tell her that she has been upseting me. I can write, "You make me angry" but I'm afraid that would hurt her feelings (plus, my mother is kinda good at guilt-trips other when she's under stress). I once write to her something like this: "You know, I developed an eating disorder because you and virtually everyone else keep telling I'm fat." (I'm now recovering. And yes, I think even the Thinking type can suffer eating disorder too, especially thinking-type with inferior Fe and demon Fi)

Soon after that, she told me to eat enough, to stop whatever diet I've been doing, and to just get over it. Well, that's actually quite hurting because THAT IS PRECISELY WHAT I'M DOING. My mother cooked a lot of my favourite food. I know she meant well, but I actually wish she would (I hope I don't expect too much) do some research on what kind of disease it is. I'm not suffering a physical disease. I'm suffering a mental disease and I need more than just my favourite food to recover. On the bad side, she told me that the reason everyone calling me 'fat' is because they care about my health.

Seriously, I hate my mother making excuses when I told her she has been upseting me.


Oh, and while we are at it, there's also another reason why I think my ENFJ professor understands me more than my ESFJ mother (again, I don't mean offense to ESFJ in general). My ESFJ mothers tends to care for my physical need more than emotional need, while my ENFJ professors doing the opposite. Both are equally important, but one doesn't have to be someone's mother to just understand his/her physical need. However, it needs a really deep bond to understand someone's emotional need. That's why sometimes I think my ENFJ professor is more like my real mother than my biological one.

Another example: I told my mother than I'm an INTP and she's an ESFJ, so we really have to really work hard to understand each other. My mom, however, thought I was just overthinking it. In the end, she loved me the way she wanted HERSELF to be loved, which didn't really suit me at all. On the other hand, I never told my professors my MBTI type. Maybe she doesn't even have any idea what INTP is. And yet, she seems to know how to deal with me. TBH, she deal with each of her student differently, as if she could read people's mind.

So that's how hard it is.


Anyway, your mother is an ISTJ? Wow, that's actually quite rare.


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## INeedToP (Nov 23, 2015)

jehneefur said:


> My husband is INTP, He says to just understand that your mother is emotional, irrational, and silly so fighting with her will never accomplish anything. If you want to make her feel loved try to find out how she feels loved and just do those things "in a cold and calculating manner." XD


Uh, well, thanks for calling my mother (a Pharmacist who graduated cum laude and the best student) emotional, irrational, and silly.

And not sure if I'm being trolled or just being helped in a sarcastic manner...


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## Hottest_Commie_Ever (Nov 11, 2015)

INeedToP said:


> Sorry, but my Chinese is SO HORRIBLE. Because I never really want to learn it in the first place. My parents, though, said that since I'm a (half) Chinese, I have to be able to speak like one. Actually, my English is WAY BETTER than my Chinese (though I'm not English-spoken either). If I have to choose one language that I want to learn, it's Greek (because Socrates, and Plato, and Aristoteles, and pretty much everyone there), or maybe Latin (because, you know, Cogito Ergo Sum)
> 
> Anyway, unlike you, I'm just a half Chinese (but it's nice to find another Chinese in PerC!) I never even lived in China. BUT my GRAND-parents (so it has been two generations) migrated from there. So yeah. But we hold the Chinese tradition like crazy. My parents even told me to memorize my great-great-grand parents' name when I was a kid. And pretty much all relatives we have. I don't know why, I'm not even born in China but I was told I have to do this and that JUST BECAUSE. I really want to be integrated into this culture AKA this country where I live in (I live in Indonesia, BTW). Because, I'm an Indonesian first and Chinese second. Well, that's how Si my parents are, and how Ne I am.


My parents REALLY insist i keep speaking and reading Chinese. They get mad at me a lot when i question their supremacy because i hate this kind of "i'm older so i deserve more respect than you ever will" mindset. I know it's a tradition and part of the culture, but it's just so painful for the younger people! I understand that parents work really really hard for their kids (jeez, i don't even want to THINK about giving birth) but kids should also get their own rights and freedoms in the house.

This kind of controversial and confusing thinking is a side effect of being raised the way i was, in two different environments.

I see their point of wanting to continue the tradition, though. I wouldn't want to forget my own grandparents' names even if they were in Arabic. But i understand how this is difficult for you, because you were raised to respect Chinese culture in a non-Chinese environment all your life. Of course you want to integrate.

So how many languages are you able to communicate basically with?



INeedToP said:


> I really hate it when Chinese discriminated against the locals here. That's another reason why I don't like their Si. But when I constantly said that they are human beings, just like us, I got a lot of "Well, you just don't understand."
> 
> WHAT?
> 
> I said we are all the same human being (who only happen to born in a different place) and they say I don't understand things.


What? How did Chinese people discriminate against the Indonesian locals? This isn't making sense - why and how did they discriminate against any race/culture in the first place?



INeedToP said:


> Also, about learning Chinese and memorizing our relatives and great-grand-parents. I really hate following all the tradition for the sake of tradition. It sucks. And though no one would believe this, but Chinese society is actually more materialistic than the Western. I wanted to study philosophy, but they say philosopher can't even feed themselves. I wanted to study pure physics, they say I would end up having no money. I wanted to study graphic design, and they say it's won't make that much money. In the end, I studied architecture.
> 
> INTPs are said to learn for the sake of learning, and gaining knowledge for the sake of knowledge. Well, that's very true of me. But no one seems to understand this, "You learn so that you will get a degree, get a good job, get well-paid, and become rich!" That's what they always said. No freedom.
> 
> So, yeah. That's about Chinese. But I've got over it. I'm an architect now (but I still want to study philosophy and physics and graphic design)


I'm really sorry to tell you that following tradition for the sake of tradition is just the way things go. People don't _want_ to move on, they don't _want_ to forget their home country or anything, so they teach their next generations all the traditions. That might not be in your value system, but maybe you should at least try to see things this way more often? Also, idk if this will help, but communicate with them and do some mutual perspective-switching. It's hard, i know, but if you could, at least give it a try.

About your education, i see how you're feeling like there's no freedom. I really dislike math these days, so trying to get all my homework done makes me feel like a zombie. I want to learn what i like, as well. Do you like architecture, though?

Now that you've become an architect, you can use any free time to read about, maybe take extra adult courses on, things like philosophy and physics. But what your family wanted you to do was get a steady life and a steady income FIRST, and THEN pursue what you really want. If that feels suffocating, well, it looks like communicating with them is always the way to solve the problem. At least try to talk it out.



INeedToP said:


> Anyway, sorry for ranting. And as a fellow Chinese, please forgive me if I offend you in anyway.


No, it's fine! It's completely understandable how you're feeling. And besides, since i'm not all that Si when it comes to Chinese traditions (i've already told you why above), it doesn't matter that much.



INeedToP said:


> Yes, I figured that out too and I started to write
> 
> Problem is, I don't know what should I write. My mother loves writting poem. Should I write one for her? I can't say I'm good at it but I can try.
> 
> ...


Maybe you should start out simply. Don't think about poems and literary devices and descriptive philosophy; just a few sentences will do.

Well...bad experiences are the worst when it comes to stuff like this. All i can tell you is that you shouldn't overthink/second-guess anything you write - don't edit yourself! - and try to keep it really simple. Since your family is mostly Sensing, describe real situations and don't go into things that are too "deep". I'm sure they are capable of processing abstract material, but remember that you're _just starting_ to communicate with them, and keeping it SIMPLE is the best way to develop.



INeedToP said:


> And it's even harder if I want to tell her that she has been upseting me. I can write, "You make me angry" but I'm afraid that would hurt her feelings (plus, my mother is kinda good at guilt-trips other when she's under stress). I once write to her something like this: "You know, I developed an eating disorder because you and virtually everyone else keep telling I'm fat." (I'm now recovering. And yes, I think even the Thinking type can suffer eating disorder too, especially thinking-type with inferior Fe and demon Fi)
> 
> Soon after that, she told me to eat enough, to stop whatever diet I've been doing, and to just get over it. Well, that's actually quite hurting because THAT IS PRECISELY WHAT I'M DOING. My mother cooked a lot of my favourite food. I know she meant well, but I actually wish she would (I hope I don't expect too much) do some research on what kind of disease it is. I'm not suffering a physical disease. I'm suffering a mental disease and I need more than just my favourite food to recover. On the bad side, she told me that the reason everyone calling me 'fat' is because they care about my health.


Hmm. Maybe you should try using que cards in conversations? Try writing the main points you want to cover, possibly. And if you want to sugarcoat it, do NOT overthink the sugarcoating and wonder "is this enough". Do try to soften the blow though. Say something like, "I love you and i know you and my family want the best for me, but i'm afraid that my eating habits aren't going that well. Could you possibly help me get some research done about this problem i have? I'm a little worried about it." Something like that.

And that is really shocking - you have an eating disorder because they called you fat? Oh my goodness! This is really a big problem, isn't it? Only, try to make it sound not as serious when you're talking to your mother, and if she inserts little comments in her point of view as you're talking, don't let it get to your head, and stay on topic. 



INeedToP said:


> Seriously, I hate my mother making excuses when I told her she has been upseting me.


It's very hard for both of you, for sure. She obviously doesn't want to think that all her good intentions of helping you have upset you. So a way to deal with that is to make it sound less serious - i'm not sure if she'll just keep denying it, but for the millionth time, try.



INeedToP said:


> Oh, and while we are at it, there's also another reason why I think my ENFJ professor understands me more than my ESFJ mother (again, I don't mean offense to ESFJ in general). My ESFJ mothers tends to care for my physical need more than emotional need, while my ENFJ professors doing the opposite. Both are equally important, but one doesn't have to be someone's mother to just understand his/her physical need. However, it needs a really deep bond to understand someone's emotional need. That's why sometimes I think my ENFJ professor is more like my real mother than my biological one.


That's sad. It's definitely true, what you said about emotional needs creating bonds. This one is probably one of the most difficult things to say - i don't know how to tell my mother to take care of my emotional needs as well as my physical ones! But i don't have to worry about offending her, because she generally has a thick skin. You, however, need to think about this more. I'm sorry, but idk what do tell you for this :/

And it's okay, i know you have no prejudice against ESFJs. Just some bad experience with a few of them.



INeedToP said:


> Another example: I told my mother than I'm an INTP and she's an ESFJ, so we really have to really work hard to understand each other. My mom, however, thought I was just overthinking it. In the end, she loved me the way she wanted HERSELF to be loved, which didn't really suit me at all. On the other hand, I never told my professors my MBTI type. Maybe she doesn't even have any idea what INTP is. And yet, she seems to know how to deal with me. TBH, she deal with each of her student differently, as if she could read people's mind.


Same here - when i tried to introduce typology to my parents, they told me to not take it seriously because this kind of stuff is the _definition_ of overthinking. I see that you've analyzed this and come to the conclusion that your mother loved you the way she wanted to be loved - don't tell her any of your personal conclusions. Specific, real, concrete statements only.

What does your professor teach you? For some jobs, you have to take psychology, and maybe she does know what INTP is. Yeah, i know an ENFJ teacher who does that too - he knows everybody better than they know themselves, and treats each person differently: he treats each person like their own person, if that makes sense.



INeedToP said:


> Anyway, your mother is an ISTJ? Wow, that's actually quite rare.


Is that rare? I thought China would be a rather ESTJ-oriented country. But women are generally expected to be ISFJ (I think you said that somewhere, but i can't find your post that said it) and men ESTJ, i think? ISTJ moms are probably not that rare in our culture. She's just as traditional as you describe your mother, and my father is also very traditional. He's INTJ, but it seems like NJ types are more traditional than SP types. Hmm.


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## Jehneefur (Jun 18, 2013)

INeedToP said:


> Uh, well, thanks for calling my mother (a Pharmacist who graduated cum laude and the best student) emotional, irrational, and silly.
> 
> And not sure if I'm being trolled or just being helped in a sarcastic manner...


Whoa.. totally didn't want you take that in that way. I was just quoting my husband really but as an ISFJ, veteran of the military with a background in nursing and teaching- I totally do not believe your mother to be intellectually inferior in any manner. Her feelings definitely have value and she herself is not less of a person because of them. 

That being said, what do you think arguing with your mother will accomplish? You may understand that she feels the way she does, but you cannot fully understand exactly what she is experiencing and vice versa. My husband suggests that you merely find out how she feels loved. Does she love having things done for her (cleaning or other things) or does she like gifts or small displays of affection (hugs)? Just find out what she likes and do those things because she doesn't like the kind of love that you like. She would probably like to know the ways that you feel loved as well.


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## Strelok (Aug 16, 2013)

INeedToP said:


> Upset, the Ni took control and I blurted "You hope you will die young!" We didn't talk for the rest of that week.


Ok, and why on earth do you believe this had anything to do with Ni?


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## M00ny (Oct 23, 2015)

Try knowing her Love Language (Gary Chapman) then show love to her through her language


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## stormfyre (Aug 13, 2015)

The majority of the population are SJs, so society determines that you must change for them, a lot of SJs really have a tough time understanding XNTP. This is coming from probably an unhealthy ENTP, but I would just say fuck it. If they're not going to try to understand you, then move on to bigger and better things. You are an INTP of course. Go invent some mind altering machine that will change all sensing types to intuitive types.


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## INeedToP (Nov 23, 2015)

@Strelok
I get the information here:

http://personalitycafe.com/cognitiv...volving-eight-functions-type-beebe-model.html

which sounds true.


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## inregardstomyself (Mar 21, 2014)

M00ny said:


> Try knowing her Love Language (Gary Chapman) then show love to her through her language


Actually I think this is a really great idea.
Your Mom may have not responded well to your explaining the whole INTP-ESFJ dynamic - she may have found it silly that you're using an obscure theory from some random internet test to try to dictate how she is and how she should love her child. But love languages may seem a bit more...relatable I think. You say she's really good at taking care of your physical needs, perhaps her "love language" then is service (I think that's one...it's been a while since I looked at them) and yours is, oh I don't know, words of affirmation for example. She may relate more to the idea that people have different "gifts" or ways to express love, and that your way may not be the same expression as hers, but is still equally valid. You may have an easier time connecting and communicating with her in that aspect.

And for your father, well I too have a pretty traditional father (not Chinese though), but I definitely relate to the part about having the wife and kids do everything. There really is no use trying to change that or fight against it. It's so ingrained into their culture and mindset that it's just a heavy battle you probably won't win. I've learned to quietly (but respectfully) go along with it and go about my way. It annoys me but I just take a deep breath and do it to save the peace, but still maintain my own dignity.


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## MisterPerfect (Nov 20, 2015)

Well your mother sounds like a bitch to be honest 
Your brother really is hypocritical since computer programming often is used for things like web design and games. So if he wants to complain things are too imaginative he should not get into programming, it also might be he is jealous and competing since you have another field of study


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## INeedToP (Nov 23, 2015)

@inregardstomyself
Well, I have tried that approach before. I've tried service, but that didn't work because my mom did everything herself (and actually I'm to lazy to do... what's that word I'm looking for... 'Mundane things'). I also tried word of affirmation, but I really don't know how to praise someone or say 'I love you'. I end up stammering or sound insincere. And gifts... well, I have bought her her favourite food several times, but she always had me eat them in the end. And don't even mention touch. Well, the most I can do is time, actually. I tried to be with her all the time. It works pretty well, actually.

And about my father. Ugh... so I'm fighting a losing battle and I have to surrender in order to survive? Well, "It annoys me" would be an understatement...

Thanks for the advice!


@MisterPerfect
I have to partially agree with you, as my mom more than often emotionally abuse me. And we Rationals are weak against that. Any a suggestion?

My brother isn't specialized in Web Design (he hates design) and games (although he loves it, it's really unpopular here). He's specialized in Cyber Security Programming (I don't know much about that. Maybe that one about antivirus or data protection or network security). So yeah, Cyber SECURITY Programming specialization. That's what you get from an ISTJ programmer. Really typical of SJ type.


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## MisterPerfect (Nov 20, 2015)

INeedToP said:


> @inregardstomyself
> Well, I have tried that approach before. I've tried service, but that didn't work because my mom did everything herself (and actually I'm to lazy to do... what's that word I'm looking for... 'Mundane things'). I also tried word of affirmation, but I really don't know how to praise someone or say 'I love you'. I end up stammering or sound insincere. And gifts... well, I have bought her her favourite food several times, but she always had me eat them in the end. And don't even mention touch. Well, the most I can do is time, actually. I tried to be with her all the time. It works pretty well, actually.
> 
> And about my father. Ugh... so I'm fighting a losing battle and I have to surrender in order to survive? Well, "It annoys me" would be an understatement...
> ...


I can not deal with overly aggressive people since I just sit there trying to reason and when I give them a blank stare it seems to make them angrier till they eventually want to beat me bloody. I not entirely sure how to deal with it since I not particularly forceful. Though some people can not be reasoned with and aggression is the only way to deal with this. If they threaten to hit you can try threatening to call the police though.


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## inregardstomyself (Mar 21, 2014)

INeedToP said:


> @inregardstomyself
> Well, I have tried that approach before. I've tried service, but that didn't work because my mom did everything herself (and actually I'm to lazy to do... what's that word I'm looking for... 'Mundane things'). I also tried word of affirmation, but I really don't know how to praise someone or say 'I love you'. I end up stammering or sound insincere. And gifts... well, I have bought her her favourite food several times, but she always had me eat them in the end. And don't even mention touch. Well, the most I can do is time, actually. I tried to be with her all the time. It works pretty well, actually.
> 
> And about my father. Ugh... so I'm fighting a losing battle and I have to surrender in order to survive? Well, "It annoys me" would be an understatement...
> ...


Have you tried talking to her about love languages specifically? For example say, "Mom, have you ever heard of the love languages? You take this quiz and they tell you how you express love..yada yada yada...see you're really good at service, but I'm more into [insert how you naturally express your love or at least appreciation...doesn't have to be one of the 5], so when I do x it's becuase I love you, but if I don't do y it's just because that's not my "language" but I really appreciate that you do y so well!"

I'm curious though...you said when you love someone you tend to go into problem solving mode and give honest criticism. As an Fe-user, you know, she may not _want_ you to give advice or fix her problem when she rants to you, and she may not want to be told she should look at things in a different perspective when she's upset. Personally, I rarely let myself get angry in front of other people (my individual brand of Fe won't let me), but if I do, the _last_ thing I want is for someone to tell me I shouldn't feel that way because, look at it from this perspective, and I don't really care to hear about what they think I should do. If I let myself be angry around you, all I really want is to feel heared, and to have someone validate my feelings (not saying you always have to tell me that I'm right even when I'm wrong, but at least understand that I felt really hurt/violated by whatever it is that upset me). Once I finish voicing my anger, I will naturally calm back down and start thinking logically about how to fix things. I don't need you to do that for me _at that moment_. So if this is possibly what is happening, perhaps not giving advice or criticism, but rather just patiently letting her vent until she short circuits herself out, might help to avoid it. Also, if she's anything like me, DO NOT tell her to calm down, or let on that you think she's being over-emotional, hysterical, illogical, etc. Let her finish venting first, and then she'll hopefully calm back down to her sense! 

As for your Dad, no not give up, but there comes a point where you have to ask yourself, is this _worth_ it? What is the end game here? If, for example, he is abusing you in any way, then yes of course it's worth protesting and fighting against because it will damage you if this continues, and you want to free yourself of that. But for me I thought, look, I'm only home for like 5 weeks of the year. Is it worth fighting, arguing, getting everyone worked up, and wasting unnecessary energy, and for what exactly? What exactly do I hope to gain here?

I can't answer that question for you, but before you start to wage war on your dad, you have to ask yourself that too.


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## INeedToP (Nov 23, 2015)

@MisterPerfect
I know how that feels. Unfortunatelly, however, I live in a country where it's allowed for parents to hit (much less threathen) their children. Though, I'm not afraid of being physically hurt (Se is not even in my function stack). But the emotional abuse can remain for days (maybe because of the inferior Fe).



@inregardstomyself
Actually I never tried. But as you say, my mom isn't interested in some 'random internet test' like MBTI and love languages. So what I've been doing is simply testing her myself by doing all those things. I guess my mom is really good at doing service (or, as an ESFJ, virtually every single one except word of affirmation), but appreciate quality time from others. While I expect service and gift from others, but good at quality time (the only thing I'm good at, sadly).
And, if you know INTP like I do (or be one, not recommended though), saying something like: "...so when I do x it's becuase I love you, but if I don't do y it's just because that's not my "language" but I really appreciate that you do y so well!" is kinda hard. I wish I can speak that in a normal way, but I always end up sounds so cheesy and awkward.



> I'm curious though...you said when you love someone you tend to go into problem solving mode and give honest criticism. As an Fe-user, you know, she may not want you to give advice or fix her problem when she rants to you, and she may not want to be told she should look at things in a different perspective when she's upset. Personally, I rarely let myself get angry in front of other people (my individual brand of Fe won't let me), but if I do, the last thing I want is for someone to tell me I shouldn't feel that way because, look at it from this perspective, and I don't really care to hear about what they think I should do. If I let myself be angry around you, all I really want is to feel heared, and to have someone validate my feelings (not saying you always have to tell me that I'm right even when I'm wrong, but at least understand that I felt really hurt/violated by whatever it is that upset me). Once I finish voicing my anger, I will naturally calm back down and start thinking logically about how to fix things. I don't need you to do that for me at that moment. So if this is possibly what is happening, perhaps not giving advice or criticism, but rather just patiently letting her vent until she short circuits herself out, might help to avoid it. Also, if she's anything like me, DO NOT tell her to calm down, or let on that you think she's being over-emotional, hysterical, illogical, etc. Let her finish venting first, and then she'll hopefully calm back down to her sense!


NOW THAT MAKES SENSE! :shocked:
I hitherto confess that, whenever my mother vent her emotion, I will simply say, "Chill." And depending on her reaction, I will proceed to the problem solving mode.
So you're saying that feeler are usually all-emotional first then calm down and think logically? That's new for me because as a thinker I think logically at first and start being all-emotional when I'm already in a desperate mode. I never thought it would be the other way around.
Seriously, I never thought doing that is annoying to her. I don't usually extravert my feeling, so whenever someone extravert theirs, it become a warning sign to me that that person is on the verge of depression. That's why I want my mom to chill. Never thought telling her to calm down means invalidating her feelings...

Thanks. That really helps a lot.

About my dad... well, what's at stake here is... my mom. Whenever I did some mistake (even some minor mistake, like not bidding my paternal grandparents goodbye (we live together) whenever I leave the house, not greet the elders before I start eating (same concept with Japanese 'Itadakimasu!')), my dad will always get mad and complained how incompetent my mom is, being unable to teach me some manner. And my mom will always gets depressed over this.

Worse still, I do all those things DELIBERATELY. Why? Precisely because both my paternal grandfather and grandmother are deaf! So what's the point of bidding farewell and greeting before meal? However, whenever I try to reason with my father (when he was in a good mood), he was saying "that's how things are! Shut up and get on with it." My dad isn't the type of person you can reason with.
If I dare do that if he was on a bad mood, he will kick me out, LITERALLY. Well, he has done that before, literally kicking me out. I'm 100% okay with the pain, actually. But seeing my mom get all depressed is unbearable. So, yeah. In the end I have to endure two kind of abuse: physical abuse from my dad (literally being kicked), and emotional abuse from my mom ("you don't love me if yu don't do A, B, and C!"). Cool, huh? That's how fucked my life is.

It's must be nice having to meet you dad 5 only weeks a year. And no, I don't mean to be sarcastic. (Perhaps a reason why I'm not attracted to any males and not interested in marriage is because of my dad). Well, since I have to live with my dad 24/7, then I guess waving the white flag is the only way.

Sorry for bothering you with all this, anyway.

And, just curios. If you think it's not too personal, may I know what your personality type is? I think you're a Fe-users, though I'm sure I can be wrong.


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## Endologic (Feb 14, 2015)

Please move out of this evil family. They are destroying your intellect.


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## inregardstomyself (Mar 21, 2014)

INeedToP said:


> @inregardstomyself
> Actually I never tried. But as you say, my mom isn't interested in some 'random internet test' like MBTI and love languages. So what I've been doing is simply testing her myself by doing all those things. I guess my mom is really good at doing service (or, as an ESFJ, virtually every single one except word of affirmation), but appreciate quality time from others. While I expect service and gift from others, but good at quality time (the only thing I'm good at, sadly).
> And, if you know INTP like I do (or be one, not recommended though), saying something like: "...so when I do x it's becuase I love you, but if I don't do y it's just because that's not my "language" but I really appreciate that you do y so well!" is kinda hard. I wish I can speak that in a normal way, but I always end up sounds so cheesy and awkward.


Well of course never do anything that makes you feel awkward, or is unnatural to you. I understand that must be frustrating when someone wants you to be something you're not. And it especially hurts if they can't see all the things you do do for them, because that's not what they do...

I don't think it's fair to force yourself to be more like your mom, because the beauty about human beings and diversity is that we all have unique ways of expressing ourselves, which makes us so complementary. If I may ask, what are the things she gets upset that you don't do?



INeedToP said:


> NOW THAT MAKES SENSE! :shocked:
> I hitherto confess that, whenever my mother vent her emotion, I will simply say, "Chill." And depending on her reaction, I will proceed to the problem solving mode.
> 
> So you're saying that feeler are usually all-emotional first then calm down and think logically? That's new for me because as a thinker I think logically at first and start being all-emotional when I'm already in a desperate mode. I never thought it would be the other way around.
> ...


I'm glad it did! Let me know if that helps any!

Haha it's a common complaint I've heard between xNTP's and xSFJ's. They get mad that we don't actually want their advice, but all we just want is a shoulder to cry on. Usually yes, we just need to get our crazy emotions out of the way and then Ti can start working again  The only time intervention may be needed would be if this irrational venting lasts for a prolonged period (like say it's been 3 hours and they're nowhere near being done), or if the person is about to do something reckless as a result ("I'm going to run my ex over with my car because he cheated on me!" <--- *that* is when you should tell them to calm down xP)

I totally understand where the misperception is, because for someone who reacts emotionally last, an Fe's angry outburst would probably seem alarming! So that's perfectly reasonable you'd view it that way. (I wonder, does she ever accuse you of not opening up to her? If she's more emotionally expressive than you, she might take your cool-headedness as you being overly secretive and private? If this isn't ever something that's come up for you, then yay, that's good!) Luckily, your mom may not really need much from you when she's getting emotional, just a patient listener and perhaps a few "awww"'s thrown in every now and again ;P And when she's calmed herself down, maybe then you can try offering some of that solid Ti logic!



INeedToP said:


> About my dad... well, what's at stake here is... my mom. Whenever I did some mistake (even some minor mistake, like not bidding my paternal grandparents goodbye (we live together) whenever I leave the house, not greet the elders before I start eating (same concept with Japanese 'Itadakimasu!')), my dad will always get mad and complained how incompetent my mom is, being unable to teach me some manner. And my mom will always gets depressed over this.
> 
> Worse still, I do all those things DELIBERATELY. Why? Precisely because both my paternal grandfather and grandmother are deaf! So what's the point of bidding farewell and greeting before meal? However, whenever I try to reason with my father (when he was in a good mood), he was saying "that's how things are! Shut up and get on with it." My dad isn't the type of person you can reason with.
> If I dare do that if he was on a bad mood, he will kick me out, LITERALLY. Well, he has done that before, literally kicking me out. I'm 100% okay with the pain, actually. But seeing my mom get all depressed is unbearable. So, yeah. In the end I have to endure two kind of abuse: physical abuse from my dad (literally being kicked), and emotional abuse from my mom ("you don't love me if yu don't do A, B, and C!"). Cool, huh? That's how fucked my life is.
> ...


Oh dear, ack I'm sorry...I'm touched by the empathy you have towards your mother though  That's so sweet of you.

It seems like you have a bit closer relationship to your mom than your dad? It also seems to me that perhaps your dad's comments to your mom may have more to do with the two of them than with you? In other words, I don't think it's fair for you to take on the emotional burden of that. But what you can do every now and again is to reassure her how much you appreciate her as your mother. It doesn't have to be something super emotional or cheesy; it could just be you recounting an anecdote from your youth of something she did for you that stuck with you and how much you really appreciated that. Perhaps your dad's comments make your mom feel like she failed some way as a mother; maybe these reassurances from her daughter may help disprove that.

Ummm also I thought I might add, as you probably already know, the greeting the elders thing doesn't make any _logical_ sense to you but it is a cultural respect thing. Though they cannot hear you, your grandparents can still see you, and it might make them happy to at least see you acknowledge them in that regard even if it seems silly (it's the sentiment that counts).

Lastly, I hate to pry, but are you in school? Are you looking into maybe moving out into a place of your own (probably a dum question as I'm sure the thought has already crossed your mind)



INeedToP said:


> And, just curios. If you think it's not too personal, may I know what your personality type is? I think you're a Fe-users, though I'm sure I can be wrong.


Lol I think I'm probably an xSFJ, leaning more towards ISFJ currently...
Also, if you'd feel more comfortable, we can move into private messaging, although I'm happy to respond in any medium, if it is helpful.


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