# Best nation for employment and enjoyment



## runnerveran (Dec 19, 2011)

Note: *Scroll down to the bullet points for a summary and quicker read.*

What's the best nation to live in for someone with only an associate degree or bachelor's degree? I currently have an associate's degree (that I earned in the U.S.) and I'm unsure whether or not I'll finish my bachelor's. I've been thinking about this lately and I've come to realize that while the U.S. may be one of the best countries for highly motivated people that want to climb up the corporate ladder and make millions, it may not be the best nation for a person content with an average (or lower) salary. Two important things I am looking for in a nation if I decide to move is a _low cost of living_ (in particular housing but also food, etc) and a _good average salary for people with only an associate or bachelor's degree_. Another really important thing is that the country should have a _high minimum wage_. If I decide to move abroad, I don't know how long it will take me to find a job better than minimum wage with my degree. From the little bit of research that I've done, I've seen that some European countries, such as the Netherlands and Luxembourg, have a much higher min. wage than the U.S. However, I'm not sure how this balances out once one factors in the cost of living. A fourth important thing I would look for in a country is universal health care. My decision isn't contingent upon a country having universal health care. but it would certainly help me feel safer and reduce my cost of living. A fifth important quality in prospective countries is the quality of higher education in the country and surrounding countries. In case I decide to continue my education in another nation, it is somewhat important that they have good universities (_in terms of how good their quality is compared to their price_).

So here's the above "tl;dr" in bullet format for those in a rush:

Most important qualities to me in possible nations that I could move to

Good avg. salary for those with assc or bach. degree
Good minimum wage
Low cost of living, especially housing

Somewhat Important qualities to me

Socialized necessities, such as health care
Good higher education in the nation or a bordering nation
People in the nation speak english as a primary or secondary language; another lang. won't be necessary to get a job




Unimportant Qualities to me
Convenience - I.e. stores in the UK and other European nations not open as much as in U.S. ; trivial things like this wouldn't bother me
Urbaness - I wouldn't mind living in a suburban or rural area (and might even prefer it). 



So to all of you posting from around the world: which countries do you think would be best given my level of education and qualities that I'm looking for in possible countries to move to? I realize that there are most likely trade offs to be made; not any one country will offer _everything_ I'm looking for. It would also be helpful if you state what nation you_ currently _live in and whether your recommended country to live in is from research or from actually living in that country.


*Here is a related thread from a community blog/forum on the same topic: Optimal Employment - Less Wrong. The OP recommends the outback and/or suburban areas of Australia and various people comment.


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## Vaan (Dec 19, 2010)

Yeah I would reccommend Australia, and especially Melbourne if you are looking for high quality education and employment.

The only downside is despite our high per capita income we do have a fairly high cost of living, however it's not impossible to live here.

We also have a good healthcare plan and universal healthcare I believe.

The other good places I would reccomend are in Europe


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## Stelmaria (Sep 30, 2011)

Don't necessarily choose the one that looks best on paper because the paper experience might not always represent reality. I suggest you make a short list and visit the countries in question. Then choose the one you think suits you the most.

Associates degrees aren't offered in Australia, so if you want to go there you should finish your Bachelor's degree at least.


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## CoopV (Nov 6, 2011)

I'm not sure. I will tell you though since education is mostly free in Europe many people have advanced degrees so it's harder to get a job with even a Bachelor's degree. My French friends are having to go on to Masters programs for that very reason. 

I personally would love to move to Sweden at the moment.


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## Stelmaria (Sep 30, 2011)

eros5th said:


> I personally would love to move to Sweden at the moment.


Be sure to consider the weather wherever you plan on moving to. So Sweden is off the table unless you like it icy cold. :wink:


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## aus2020 (Jun 29, 2011)

My cousin worked in Alice Springs only once. There's not much to do and the heat! Anyway, I would also like to recommend Melbourne as well. I've been to 34 countries throughout the world and travelled to many of Australia's major cities, and I haven't found any other place that comes close. Another fact not mentioned:

Average Length of Unemployment at All-Time High - NYTimes.com

The average length of unemployment in the US is around 40 weeks, as compared to here of about 3-4 months.


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## runnerveran (Dec 19, 2011)

Thanks, everyone


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## CoopV (Nov 6, 2011)

Snow Leopard said:


> Be sure to consider the weather wherever you plan on moving to. So Sweden is off the table unless you like it icy cold. :wink:


I love cold weather. But I really only wanted to move there because I hear most of the guys there look like Alexander Skarsgard :tongue:

But the more I read about it the more I'm not sure 

I am such an indecisive person it's really a problem lol


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## Vaan (Dec 19, 2010)

Snow Leopard said:


> Associates degrees aren't offered in Australia, so if you want to go there you should finish your Bachelor's degree at least.


Yes they are, they've been in since 2004 :/


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

One thing you must consider are taxes. Let's say you get 7.25 USD min wage in the US (Yearly: 16,530) (some states can be higher though) and Netherlands is around 10.23 USD (Yearly: 23,324) . Looks good on paper, but you would actually be making the same money in the Netherlands. You would pay $1,185 in Fed and probably not much in state taxes (you may be exempt). On the other hand, in the Netherlands, you'd be paying $7,813. At the end of the day, you take home 15510 in the Netherlands and 15345 in the US... and that's with the base US rate.

If you were living in any state that provides more than the Federal rate, you may actually take home more money on minimum wage than you would in the Netherlands. So one thing to consider is the tax rate; it doesn't matter if you make more per hour if the government will be taking more from you.


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## CoopV (Nov 6, 2011)

timeless said:


> One thing you must consider are taxes. Let's say you get 7.25 USD min wage in the US (Yearly: 16,530) (some states can be higher though) and Netherlands is around 10.23 USD (Yearly: 23,324) . Looks good on paper, but you would actually be making the same money in the Netherlands. You would pay $1,185 in Fed and probably not much in state taxes (you may be exempt). On the other hand, in the Netherlands, you'd be paying $7,813. At the end of the day, you take home 15510 in the Netherlands and 15345 in the US... and that's with the base US rate.
> 
> If you were living in any state that provides more than the Federal rate, you may actually take home more money on minimum wage than you would in the Netherlands. So one thing to consider is the tax rate; it doesn't matter if you make more per hour if the government will be taking more from you.


What do you mean provide more than the Federal rate? Like socialized benefits?


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

eros5th said:


> What do you mean provide more than the Federal rate? Like socialized benefits?


No, the Federal minimum wage in the US is 7.25 but some states have a higher minimum wage than that; for example, the minimum wage in DC is 8.25. In that case you'd definitely pull in more than the Netherlands. Keep in mind that the Netherlands doesn't have socialized medicine for everyone, just the elderly and terminally ill and so forth. Everyone else is forced to buy health insurance. So in the Netherlands example, you'd still have less money and you would have to pay for health insurance. (No option to decline). That would further reduce your take-home pay.


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## aus2020 (Jun 29, 2011)

Even with government assistance, how does a person survive on minimum wage? To keep up with falling US dollar, wages should at least have more than doubled over the last decade and that hasn't happened. 

I read that here in Australia it costs $40k/yr to feed and house a homeless person.


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

aus2020 said:


> Even with government assistance, how does a person survive on minimum wage? To keep up with falling US dollar, wages should at least have more than doubled over the last decade and that hasn't happened.
> 
> I read that here in Australia it costs $40k/yr to feed and house a homeless person.


Most people in that situation would take more than one job.


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

New Orleans


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## aus2020 (Jun 29, 2011)

timeless said:


> Most people in that situation would take more than one job.


I saw a documentary about living on the minimum wage and the most significant issue was the cost of healthcare, which is a major cause of bankruptcies in the US.


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

aus2020 said:


> I saw a documentary about living on the minimum wage and the most significant issue was the cost of healthcare, which is a major cause of bankruptcies in the US.


Yes, the minimum wage doesn't pay much.


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## aus2020 (Jun 29, 2011)

timeless said:


> Yes, the minimum wage doesn't pay much.


Apparently, americans pay 1.6X as much for healthcare compared to canadians, yet receive 1/2 as much in return. Could that be due to the high profits that pharmaceutical companies make and the medical lawsuits resulting in high insurance costs?


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

aus2020 said:


> Apparently, americans pay 1.6X as much for healthcare compared to canadians, yet receive 1/2 as much in return. Could that be due to the high profits that pharmaceutical companies make and the medical lawsuits resulting in high insurance costs?


It's actually more complex than that. Somewhat counter-intuitively, generic drugs in Canada cost roughly twice as much as their brand-name counter-part. This is because of certain Canadian laws that essentially fix the price of incoming brand-name drugs. The Canadian government sets a maximum price for the sale of brand-name drugs, which means that if you were a drug company that spent $10 million on a new drug and you were only allowed to sell it in Canada for $.22 per pill with a $.20 per pill unit cost, you would sell your drugs to Canada but you wouldn't make your R&D costs back in Canada. Therefore prices rise elsewhere. At the same time, a small group of Canadian drug companies have a monopoly on generic drugs. So you end up with an odd situation where name-brand drugs cost less and generic drugs cost more. Of course, if every country implemented such price controls, it would make things much more difficult for R&D.

There's also the serious concern that the Canadian health care system won't be sustainable. I think I cited earlier in this thread (may not have) that British Columbia would be spending as much as 71% on health care by 2017... if that trend keeps up, government-sponsored health care might bring provincial governments to their knees.


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## Stelmaria (Sep 30, 2011)

aus2020 said:


> I read that here in Australia it costs $40k/yr to feed and house a homeless person.


I know quite a few people who can get by comfortably with half that, but not in Sydney mind you...


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## BlackSnow (Feb 2, 2012)

Sweden is not that cold. A friend of mine lives in Stockholm and the temperature isn't that bad.


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## bellisaurius (Jan 18, 2012)

Souled_in makes a strong point about considering a different part of the US. New Orleans is one of them. The Carolinas are another. 

Another factor should be considering what job you have/want. A lot of people really want an urban environment, which means there tend to be more poor people and cost of living is much lower in the rural areas.

A link to your primary question, though:

PayScale


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## Stelmaria (Sep 30, 2011)

BlackSnow said:


> Sweden is not that cold. A friend of mine lives in Stockholm and the temperature isn't that bad.


It's usually quite revealing when you say "isn't that bad". 

My town has low humidity, never gets below zero in winter and today's maximum temperature (middle of summer) was 21 degrees Celsius. Having said that, the mild summer is due to the current La Nina cycle.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

@bellisaurius - Please don't advocate looking into the Carolinas. Both states have more than enough issues with unemployment at the moment ... so please don't suggest someone go to my home state to get a job. There are enough qualified South Carolinians and North Carolinians who are not getting hired.

Also, both states kind of blow in terms of the categories of "things to do" unless you like boating in the coastal areas with people who think that living off of their nouveau riche parents makes them a Southern gentleman or belle. Yes, I grew up in the land of debutantes, and I'm thoroughly sick of debutantes and pageant queens. I'm also thoroughly sick of new-money trash parading around as "respectable" because they now have money. Anyways, I guess that's why I left.

(I get seasick and the company blows).


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## bellisaurius (Jan 18, 2012)

@koalaroo

Touche. Although, my original suggestion was going to be the Dakotas, but I couldn't do that to another human being. At least the Carolinas have pretty scenery. Of course, this brings up the part that I think was a bit of the fly in ointment of what the OP wanted, low cost of living. I do still think considering staying in the US tends to involve the least amount of additional problems though.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

@bellisaurius - Sending someone to the Dakotas would be pretty mean.


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