# The Clock of the Socion: Energy Dynamics of Quadra and Benefit Rings.



## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

Here is a link the the article.

For example Einstein might have been LII. He probably took the ideas from ILE, pushed forward by ESE and made stable by SEI for him to perfect and get all the credit for.
Is it stupid to give credit to single individuals?

He also say ”During experiments it is easily visible who plays this role within a group.” What experiments? 

Do he talk about actual people or the "energies of the type"? Can for example this circle of information be going from different parts of the world through internet and still go full circle? 

What importance will a opposite Quadra have if one Quadra is dominating the environment? Lets say delta in a company with strong beta values and beta leader?


----------



## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Captain Mclain said:


> Here is a link the the article.
> 
> For example Einstein might have been LII. He probably took the ideas from ILE, pushed forward by ESE and made stable by SEI for him to perfect and get all the credit for.
> Is it stupid to give credit to single individuals?
> ...


The rings transcend space, time, and thought. If one Quadra is exerting too much, it just means the other is absorbing. You can feel the coming loss of the former in your bones. Like the hand of God winding up.


----------



## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

Jeremy8419 said:


> The rings transcend space, time, and thought. If one Quadra is exerting too much, it just means the other is absorbing. You can feel the coming loss of the former in your bones. Like the hand of God winding up.


One could make the argument that Socionics is in the gamma stage at this point. People are stealing the ideas and make profit out of them. But there is also still guys like Gulenko that try to mange with the foundation of it and give energy towards beta quadra to let it grow into something. An example of reasoning with these ideas.


----------



## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Captain Mclain said:


> One could make the Socionics is in the gamma stage at this point. People are stealing the ideas and make profit out of them. But there is also still guys like Gulenko that try to mange with the foundation of it and give energy towards beta quadra to let it grow into something. An example of reasoning with these ideas.


Gulenko is simply criticizing Socionics, because he is trying to explain himself, as he cannot understand or comprehend his own heart. Socionics dies in Beta, because Beta realizes that it isn't real and is already better explained by existing means; i.e., regular psychology and sociology.


----------



## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

Jeremy8419 said:


> Gulenko is simply criticizing Socionics, because he is trying to explain himself, as he cannot understand or comprehend his own heart. Socionics dies in Beta, because Beta realizes that it isn't real and is already better explained by existing means; i.e., regular psychology and sociology.


Hm, I do personally think it deal with things that are not covered in these "existing means". And since it is more about the community at this point id say we are in the gamma or delta phase.


----------



## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Captain Mclain said:


> Hm, I do personally think it deal with things that are not covered in these "existing means". And since it is more about the community at this point id say we are in the gamma or delta phase.


Untypables are average on one or more of the matrices. Average compared to other people.

Socionics just shows how weird people extend past normality in various ways. It shows psychological and sociological issues that people have which prevent them from average, which is the best place to be for procreation.


----------



## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

Jeremy8419 said:


> Untypables are average on one or more of the matrices. Average compared to other people.
> 
> Socionics just shows how weird people extend past normality in various ways. It shows psychological and sociological issues that people have which prevent them from average, which is the best place to be for procreation.


Im not sure procreation is the endgame here.


----------



## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Captain Mclain said:


> Im not sure procreation is the endgame here.


Happiness and procreation. There's not really a difference between the two. You last or your children last. We're individuals and humans. Humans and animals. Typology and Socionics are just a means to explain those who fall outside of the norm. The norm is "healthy."


----------



## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

Jeremy8419 said:


> Happiness and procreation. There's not really a difference between the two. You last or your children last. We're individuals and humans. Humans and animals. Typology and Socionics are just a means to explain those who fall outside of the norm. The norm is "healthy."


I do not agree. Sure you can make a case that every human action is towards procreation. I think Socionics Type is legit at a very basic and fundamental level.

Edit; Why do things always go out of topic with you?


----------



## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Captain Mclain said:


> I do not agree. Sure you can make a case that every human action is towards procreation. I think Socionics Type is legit at a very basic and fundamental level.


It is legit at a fundamental level: One which states being far different than the average person, and there are reasons for this. "Unhealthy" and "crazy" are terms used to denote those who are different than the average person. Even types such as ISTJ, with a high population percent, are not average people. If they were average, they would be smack dab on the 50/50 line for all four dichotomies, but, instead, they simply counter several other rarer types to together average the group back towards the average person.

The Quadras were setup by alpha types, those which value ease, comfort, lack of effort. The Quadras are set up in such a way to give each type their best matches _for maintaining non-normal behaviors_, because remaining the same is easy, comfortable, and requires no effort, NOT because such is "best for you." What is best, and leads to the longest, healthiest, and productive life, will be that which causes your personality type to cease to exist and be an average person. However, people often confuse "different" and "unique." The average person still maintains all their unique life experiences, which exist only within them, while doing so in the most healthy and productive way. Being typed to an extreme end of the spectrum simply means that you are very highly marginalized in your thoughts, actions, relationships, and life in general, because you have had the majority of your potential opportunities removed.

The reality is, that when completed by Beta, things such as typology disintegrate, because the LSI will determine that the entire system exists to give people a reason to not do the obvious: do normal things, worry about the concrete, and make the effort to change. This is why Socionics really only has Alpha, Gamma, and Delta, because it dissolves with Beta, who returns it back to the reality that weird junk happened to people and so now they are weird. There is no "return to the concrete structure of reality" in Socionics. It is actually the complete opposite, going further into fantasyland to not have to face reality. The reality is, if you are 1-2% of the population (not directed at you), then there is something wrong caused by something wrong happening, and it is best to receive help which brings you back to 50/50, not "help" that really keeps you perpetually stuck out on a limb by yourself for no benefit to yourself or others, even if the 1-2% on the opposite end would be cancelled out by your 1-2%, because simply them being out there means they already are going to cease to exist via no procreation or death.

Typology is a measure of defects, not bonuses. Socionics, in general, exists to perpetuate the Alpha originators' inability, and lack of effort, to return to the norm of society.


----------



## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

Jeremy8419 said:


> It is legit at a fundamental level: One which states being far different than the average person, and there are reasons for this. "Unhealthy" and "crazy" are terms used to denote those who are different than the average person. Even types such as ISTJ, with a high population percent, are not average people. If they were average, they would be smack dab on the 50/50 line for all four dichotomies, but, instead, they simply counter several other rarer types to together average the group back towards the average person.
> 
> The Quadras were setup by alpha types, those which value ease, comfort, lack of effort. The Quadras are set up in such a way to give each type their best matches _for maintaining non-normal behaviors_, because remaining the same is easy, comfortable, and requires no effort, NOT because such is "best for you." What is best, and leads to the longest, healthiest, and productive life, will be that which causes your personality type to cease to exist and be an average person. However, people often confuse "different" and "unique." The average person still maintains all their unique life experiences, which exist only within them, while doing so in the most healthy and productive way. Being typed to an extreme end of the spectrum simply means that you are very highly marginalized in your thoughts, actions, relationships, and life in general, because you have had the majority of your potential opportunities removed.
> 
> ...



You have this thing when your starting-point is 'average'. I think beta is deeply involved in the typology, seeing Dr Jung being a Beta. Beta have a more bottom-up thinking while delta have this avarage-anomalies spectrum. For me there is at some point near birth of an individual a motivation to start process information in a specific pattern, which is your type, and then you continue to use that pattern all your life. When you think of type like this it make no sense that it is a measurement of anomalies but it is process and all about development. See type as end nodes and these end nodes work, if you now go from 2d to 3d view, in a additional pattern which is described in this clock of the Socion. I think we at some point go from procreation as the main goal to just eternal influence. Would you have 10 children but not remembered or be remembered for hundreds of years but no bloodline?


----------



## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Captain Mclain said:


> You have this thing when your starting-point is 'average'. I think beta is deeply involved in the typology, seeing Dr Jung being a Beta. Beta have a more bottom-up thinking while delta have this avarage-anomalies spectrum. For me there is at some point near birth of an individual a motivation to start process information in a specific pattern, which is your type, and then you continue to use that pattern all your life. When you think of type like this it make no sense that it is a measurement of anomalies but it is process and all about development. See type as end nodes and these end nodes work, if you now go from 2d to 3d view, in a additional pattern which is described in this clock of the Socion. I think we at some point go from procreation as the main goal to just eternal influence. Would you have 10 children but not remembered or be remembered for hundreds of years but no bloodline?


Jung isn't Beta.

"Eternal influence" outside of procreation is a measure of something very real: Insanity.


----------



## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

Jeremy8419 said:


> Jung isn't Beta.
> 
> "Eternal influence" outside of procreation is a measure of something very real: Insanity.


This can be reconnected with the topic, you being being Delta is the last stage where things get rejected and only the very finish product survive.


----------



## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Captain Mclain said:


> This can be reconnected with the topic, you being being Delta is the last stage where things get rejected and only the very finish product survive.


It's not "delta," though. This is just plain, simple, psychology and sociology.

When an animal is injured or diseased, is it more or less likely to procreate? Less. What you have here, are sick people, who have lost the ability to procreate effectively, due to whatever cognitive issues prevent such, and the subsequent rationalization to increase influence by other means, in an unconscious attempt to fulfill their biological program (unsuccessfully).


----------



## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

Jeremy8419 said:


> It's not "delta," though. This is just plain, simple, psychology and sociology.
> 
> When an animal is injured or diseased, is it more or less likely to procreate? Less. What you have here, are sick people, who have lost the ability to procreate effectively, due to whatever cognitive issues prevent such, and the subsequent rationalization to increase influence by other means, in an unconscious attempt to fulfill their biological program (unsuccessfully).


In the greater scheme of things it does not matter and we can all just chill down and analyze the way of life. Take the heartiest of people by your definition would be the president or someone with many followers and money. All those people have a type.


----------



## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Captain Mclain said:


> In the greater scheme of things it does not matter and we can all just chill down and analyze the way of life. Take the heartiest of people by your definition would be the president or someone with many followers and money. All those people have a type.


By my definition, the president would have more children, if he were typeless.


----------



## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

Jeremy8419 said:


> By my definition, the president would have more children, if he were typeless.


I change my mind. The president would be unhealthy in your pov and the avarage joe would be healthiest.


----------



## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Captain Mclain said:


> I change my mind. The president would be unhealthy in your pov and the avarage joe would be healthiest.


Exactly. And probably the happiest.

Ever followed the Kennedy's? That is one screwed up family. They got famous because they were significant outliers. Then their family went down the toilet, because they were too much of outliers to have children that are healthy who could in turn have more healthy children.


----------



## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

> Then comes EII, the Humanist, who brings general human values that have always been and will be: kindness, *and not the kind where you help black people in Africa*, but directly help you neighbor or your friend and keep quiet about it.


Wtf? Lmao


----------



## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

Jeremy8419 said:


> Wtf? Lmao


So from what I understand he believes it is the EII role to bring back the values and action of passion back to where they are real and direct.


----------



## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Captain Mclain said:


> So from what I understand he believes it is the EII role to bring back the values and action of passion back to where they are real and direct.


It sounded more like, LSE wonders "what's the point for me," IEE goes through possibilities to answer this, EII says "forget the 'me,' the point is for others," and SLI does the end role of basically utopian society in action. You know, everyone just does their specialized role and humanity just goes through time in a dream-like state.

I browsed through the article, by the way. It is basically accurate, but it is only relative to greater course of societies. On the small, interpersonal scale, you have to add "role," behind each type for every instance, because people fill the roles of the different types as necessary to complete the clock for whatever the matter is at hand. If you stick 5 people in a room, and tell them to do some sort of project for a group, they will each behave as multiple types as the project goes from start to finish.


----------



## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

@Captain Mclain

Read through it in full. USA is stuck on ESI and keeps getting kicked back to Beta, because it can't rectify/pass the morality check based on freedom. It's not passing based upon welfare, civil rights, immigration, and foreign policy. For instance, if people keep needlessly claiming welfare, using child support as a free ride, pushing civil rights on the false grounds of equality, and abusing these things, then the ESI of USA will say, how is this right? How is this fair? My freedoms are violated. So things are kicked back to Beta to try and fix the underlying system. This will not likely happen until the least used bill of rights is actualized. If these things exist prior to sending to the LSE, who will freely and completely use the procedures given, society will collapse.


----------



## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

@Jeremy8419 Hm I did not focus that much on Delta. They seem to reject everything out from the norm. And what still exist could work as the foundation for Alpha.


----------



## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Captain Mclain said:


> @Jeremy8419 Hm I did not focus that much on Delta. They seem to reject everything out from the norm. And what still exist could work as the foundation for Alpha.


Well, generally speaking, Utopian Society is called "utopian" because it is seen as the end goal of humanity. Gulenko makes note of the inability to reach utopia on a global level as the current predomination of Gamma.

Russia was is currently in IEI, by socionics acceptance of such, and is such, because the previous stage was LSI: overwhelming socialist bureaucracy.

The article is really just about the current stagnation of global social progress, as basically no part is past gamma. Author is LII'ing to try and give a usable schematic to Beta, ala socionics Enthusiasts/EIE. Following that, they want funding lol. Still won't pass Gamma lol.


----------



## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

Jeremy8419 said:


> Well, generally speaking, Utopian Society is called "utopian" because it is seen as the end goal of humanity. Gulenko makes note of the inability to reach utopia on a global level as the current predomination of Gamma.
> 
> Russia was is currently in IEI, by socionics acceptance of such, and is such, because the previous stage was LSI: overwhelming socialist bureaucracy.
> 
> The article is really just about the current stagnation of global social progress, as basically no part is past gamma. Author is LII'ing to try and give a usable schematic to Beta, ala socionics Enthusiasts/EIE. Following that, they want funding lol. Still won't pass Gamma lol.


Hm I would think there is death and then reborn stage. I have no idea of the stage of Russia. I do not think LSI is about socialist bureaucracy. I get the vibe that you are in direct conflict with the ideas of the Socion.


----------



## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Captain Mclain said:


> Hm I would think there is death and then reborn stage. I have no idea of the stage of Russia. I do not think LSI is about socialist bureaucracy. I get the vibe that you are in direct conflict with the ideas of the Socion.


http://socionic.info/pdf/Socionics.pdf
Page 17 shows Russia as IEI, which means predecessor, the USSR, was LSI.

From the article in your original post:

* *




Then comes the stabilizer of beta quadra - LSI, the Inspector. Under Marshall's rule do not expect stability ever. After everyone has calmed down and all the posts have been distributed, the organization has been formed and supported with resources, that is when the Inspector slowly but steadily builds up a kind of system under some order. This is done very carefully, beautifully, with great clarity. Reputation becomes very valued. Good reputation is created for this new organization that emerged from the less organized system of the Marshall. For LSI reputation is very important - his function is to act as a humanist, to be good, to say the right words, to look intelligent. This is followed by dogmatism - the system petrifies. On official level this is called over-bureaucratization. On this stage the mission of inspector is over and he shall remain here.

The corrector or perfector of the quadra is its fourth type - IEI. This type is the bifurcation point - it does something to make the system transition to a completely different state, a more democratic one. This is what is called an "open society". This is the mission of third, gamma quadra. IEI carries the key which locks the second quadra and unlocks the third one. He dreams of a better life, that all this totalitarianism comes to an end, strives to create peace. He rejects force. The system disintegrates - a sudden collapse then everything moves towards a new state. This can be observed experimentally - if an IEI is working in a group he will as some point halt this huge machine. It is simply amazing how he brings about this crash, unclear how this is achieved. Here again it can all start over again or move to third quadra. But nobody will leave voluntarily, especially from second quadra


----------



## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Also, yes, there is death and rebirth; however, that is still the incompletion of the socion stage that is past "global." That is... If we achieve global socion clock completion, and it dies and rebirths, then that means that we have not completed the first stage of the trans-global socion clock. Currently, we haven't completed global socion clock once; I.e., there has been no global utopia that has died and been reborn. Once this does happen, we will then be entering the next stage of the trans-global socion clock, which moves socion from ILE on the trans-global socion clock, which is ESE. The trans-global socion clock can do what is spoken of in this article multiple times: Be kicked back to previous point on the clock. Once alpha is completed on the trans-global socion clock, we leave "earth" by some means, be it space, time, collective unconscious, etc. This is what is being spoken of in the statement at the end of the article, "and what is beyond? I know not" [sic]. The author is pondering what happens should we complete the clock that was started with the "discovery of the new world;" what lies beyond "the utopias?"


----------



## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

Jeremy8419 said:


> Also, yes, there is death and rebirth; however, that is still the incompletion of the socion stage that is past "global." That is... If we achieve global socion clock completion, and it dies and rebirths, then that means that we have not completed the first stage of the trans-global socion clock. *Currently, we haven't completed global socion clock once*; I.e., there has been no global utopia that has died and been reborn. Once this does happen, we will then be entering the next stage of the trans-global socion clock, which moves socion from ILE on the trans-global socion clock, which is ESE. The trans-global socion clock can do what is spoken of in this article multiple times: Be kicked back to previous point on the clock. Once alpha is completed on the trans-global socion clock, we leave "earth" by some means, be it space, time, collective unconscious, etc. This is what is being spoken of in the statement at the end of the article, "and what is beyond? I know not" [sic]. The author is pondering what happens should we complete the clock that was started with the "discovery of the new world;" what lies beyond "the utopias?"


What you mean?


----------



## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Captain Mclain said:


> What you mean?


We have countries of competing interests. The global socion clock completes when we have a single, global, utopian society of everyone working, living, and helping each other free from conflict. "World peace." A single, simplistic, underlying, non-bureaucratic "government." Etc. Eventually, SLI gets bored and the cycle begins again.

Ever see "The Giver?" That's what is described in the SLI part of this article. Utopian society, SLI gets bored and wants passions and such, the utopia collapses, and the books ends with him "at a cabin in the woods" [sic] which is the "returning to where we came from" [sic] at the end of the SLI part of the article.

Make sense?


----------



## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

Jeremy8419 said:


> We have countries of competing interests. The global socion clock completes when we have a single, global, utopian society of everyone working, living, and helping each other free from conflict. "World peace." A single, simplistic, underlying, non-bureaucratic "government." Etc. Eventually, SLI gets bored and the cycle begins again.
> 
> Ever see "The Giver?" That's what is described in the SLI part of this article. Utopian society, SLI gets bored and wants passions and such, the utopia collapses, and the books ends with him "at a cabin in the woods" [sic] which is the "returning to where we came from" [sic] at the end of the SLI part of the article.
> 
> Make sense?


Hm, sure I guess we can look at all of humanity being one Socion clock. But like a clockwork, there should be many cogwheels, which would be smaller entities following the same pattern of socion. One humanity Socion circle would include many smaller Socion circles. Companies, technologies and -ism's going the full circle, dying and give place for something new.


----------



## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Captain Mclain said:


> Hm, sure I guess we can look at all of humanity being one Socion clock. But like a clockwork, there should be many cogwheels, which would be smaller entities following the same pattern of socion. One humanity Socion circle would include many smaller Socion circles. Companies going the full circle, dying and give place for something new.


Yes, the focus of the article is about the levels of socion; that socion clock exists and that it does so at each level.


* *




Now I will move in the opposite direction and we will address socion as a whole. 

Looking from far above it is difficult to see the details. Thus we will conduct this investigation expeditiously, moving from global societal level down to level of individual types and only slightly touching upon individual functions. My goal is to show the socion in light of all the complex relationships that exist between these levels and additionally, do so from perspective of dynamics.




It is arranged in such a way that it explains the Integral Types of countries and the progress of humanity as a whole on the global socion level, through the intra-national socion of each nation that makes up the global socion, through the intra-state socion of each state that makes up the national socion, through the intra-organizational socion that makes up the state socion, and through the intra-familial socion that makes up the organizational socion back to the individual.

Although the author says it is so, and gives examples and structures it in such a way to show global level and below, that he, as an individual that exists within the global socion, that he cannot see what is past the global socion, the trans-global socion, because the global socion has never been completed to see from within the next level.

Macrocosm / microcosm applied to socion.


----------



## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

Id like to understand it as so that these circles of information happened all the time, sometimes the full circle goes by without anyone really notice it. But from time to time something just hits at the right moment at the right time and that get solidify and growing into great attitudes. For example all the -ism would been just information and ideas going to one human to an other til the idea or the -ism is so well developed and at the right stage and with the right person that it start to have lot of power. Growing into something big and influence a lot of people, whom might been with it and developed part of it but now get blown with the full developed thing.

So now going from a group of people, maybe within the same country or the same group in a field, to something that influence on a more global scale and therefor also hit the Socion circle of the humanity in a more direct way.


----------



## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Captain Mclain said:


> hm Id like to understand it as so that these circles of information happened all the time, sometimes the full circle goes by without anyone really notice it. But from time to time something just hits at the right moment at the right time and that get solidify and growing into great attitudes. For example all the -ism would been just information and ideas going to one human to an other til the idea or the -ism is so well developed and at the right stage and with the right person that it start to have lot of power. Growing into something big and influence a lot of people, whom might been with it and developed part of it but now get blown with the full developed thing.
> 
> So now going from a group of people, maybe within the same country or the same group in a field, to something that influence on a more global scale and therefor also hit the Socion circle of the humanity in a more direct way.


Well, per the other thread I am engaged in by to_August on the age developments of individuals, what you suggest would be effecting the global scale by causing individuals to occasionally enter the supermental-block at a young age, to affect the global socion directly.


----------



## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

Jeremy8419 said:


> Well, per the other thread I am engaged in by to_August on the age developments of individuals, what you suggest would be effecting the global scale by causing individuals to occasionally enter the supermental-block at a young age, to affect the global socion directly.


Ok, is it compatible with the clock of Socion? Supermental-block sounds cool.


----------



## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Captain Mclain said:


> Ok, is it compatible with the clock of Socion? Supermental-block sounds cool.


It deals primarily with the development of individual personality up until the point your Model A is complete. Per the article, you would just now be starting to recognize your Model A. Prior to the 20s, the model isn't complete enough for accurate typing. Past 28, you start to be able to fully realize what is shown by Model A. Once you do this, you start to join the clocks of the socion.


----------



## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

@To_august

Not sure of your age, but after a realization of something peculiar, I wonder if it is similar to my own at 31.

Read through the original article in this thread, and the thread (after reading my most recent post in your thread) itself too, please, and tell me if you think it is plausible if the "clocks" exist within each development stage; e.g., 14-21 starts in alpha and ends in delta, 21-28 starts in alpha and ends in delta, 28-I forgot starts in alpha and ends in delta, etc.


----------



## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

Jeremy8419 said:


> @_To_august_
> 
> Not sure of your age, but after a realization of something peculiar, I wonder if it is similar to my own at 31.
> 
> Read through the original article in this thread, and the thread (after reading my most recent post in your thread) itself too, please, and tell me if you think it is plausible if the "clocks" exist within each development stage; e.g., 14-21 starts in alpha and ends in delta, 21-28 starts in alpha and ends in delta, 28-I forgot starts in alpha and ends in delta, etc.


I'll get to reading it a bit later. Have to have more time.


----------

