# Thoughs on America's weird sexualization of nudity, from an expat



## daleks_exterminate (Jul 22, 2013)

I'm an American living abroad. I've lived abroad for 5 years now. I have not returned home to visit during the last 5 years and I've discovered something. America massively sexualizes nudity. Sure, to an extent I knew this, but not to the point that it wasn't literally shocking to find out that Dutch people legit go to the sauna and spa not just with their parents, grandparents, siblings (which was also shocking to be fair. I can't remember seeing anyone in my family naked. We didn't do that. Most other Americans I know did not just do that outside of like hippies or maybe (unfortunately) sexual abuse. It sure as hell was not a culturally normal thing. People wouldn't just leave the door open when showering with a see through glass door, but they do here. Meanwhile, my husband's very morally conservative Christian family grew up walking around naked after showering and such because it's just a body and that's normal here.), but also colleagues, bosses, etc. It's not sexual. It's just a normal not odd part of life. No one cares but if you make it weird or sexualize someone there then they'd care and you'd absolutely be kicked out.

As someone who was brought up in the neo-puritanical society that is America non sexual nudity is still occasionally just shocking to me. Still. I have lived here for 5 years. And like "oh right it's not a nude beach but there are naked people." And like seeing someone just pull out a boob and start breastfeeding is completely normal. I do think breastfeeding should be normal and not judged or whatever but in the US actual politicians have made comments like "if a woman exposes her breasts (in the context of breastfeeding) she should not get mad if someone touches them." And that person is still a politician.... But it's a normal argument in the Us that you need to cover up. Also over here women are allowed to be topless in general in situations that logically make sense for that. There are shampoo commercials over here that have non sexualised nudity. I was recently surprised that for a check up on an IUD the doctor was just in the room with me when I undressed and that's normal. I checked because like in the US there are changing areas separate and you're often given a thing to cover the rest of you with... Which in retrospect like that's more weird. Like "oh you cannot see my belly button only my vagina" lol

*I recently experienced the perfect example of this phenomenon: a friend and I went to see The French Dispatch. It was rated R in the US. So you need to be with an adult if under 17 to see it in the US because of nudity. The rating for the Netherlands is appropriate for ages 7+. *

I for one was not allowed to watch movies with nudity or sex but if it was rated R for "just violence" it may be allowed. That is common for many people from the US that I know. 

What I've noticed is that on average Dutch women have a much healthier body image. They see many different types of bodies throughout their lives. People focus more on health and function. It's common to ride bikes everywhere, and walk a lot and such but this isn't to "keep fit to be attractive". It's for health. People don't order fries like they're doing something bad or shameful, they just get the big fries portion and smother that in mayo when they want to and go about their merry way. It's not to say no one has body image issues but I've legit never over heard a parent in this country advising their daughter to order a salad instead of a burger and fries if she wants that to "stay fit and attractive" and that's something that I've heard far too often in the US. And ironically, Dutch people are the only EU country that is not gaining weight....which indicates that actually caring about health actually works and fat shaming doesn't and indicates that most people who suggest losing weight or watching what someone eats and such and say "they only care about the health of the person" don't actually. But also people aren't as vulgar about non sexual nudity and aren't like groping nude people at normal saunas and such. Bodies are just viewed as bodies and we need them to function and that's just a part of life and being human. 

Hell, I've never heard anyone ever experience being yelled at, cat called or whistled at and such in this country. Maybe it does happen but if so I've literally never talked to a woman that experienced that here so it's much less prevalent. Dutch women are tall, beautiful, and aren't as objectified. Dutch men seem to have much healthier boundaries of decency and interaction. I think the US could learn a lot in general from removing the stigma on just naked bodies. That could lead to much healthier and less horny views on bodies and it really is bizare that it's so ingrained into the US society that nudity is taboo.

--- signed I still haven't gone with my in-laws to a sauna or spa but have been asked to and am the weirdo prude.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

That sounds really neat. I also think that there are problems with nudity stigma.

One of the most alarming aspects of it to me is online revenge porn, in which partners or previous partners (or asshole hackers or con artists or pedophiles) go about trying to exploit people by possessing nude photos of them. Like that one teen girl who committed suicide when some sick pedo internet troll kept trying to get her to do sexual things on camera, and she did make the (omygoshsohorrible) mistake of showing her tits to him, in which he then kept stalking her and harassing her across her different schools.

I men the obvious thing here is that this guy was a sick asshole, but the way the discussion and communities around her helped fuel his abuse of her is what makes the taboo against nudity more problematic.

I like to draw/sketch nude models, and I often think about this, because in some circles of people they are like "well never go nude or never let anyone see your nude body, don't be a slut etc." and so by their definition these live art models are just "asking for it."

When to me the reality is that it's the communities who shame girls about their nudity and who rather than support people when there are revenge/exposures like that, they just engage in scapegoating them...that's the real sickness. The people who believe that just being nude means that someone deserves disrespect or mistreatment, or sexual assault (as in the statement the polititican made about breastfeeding women and their breasts being touched).

That to me is more problematic--as a society we should always be coming together to protect victims of abuse and exploitation, but what happens when we stigmatize nudity is that we are weaponized against them, by the actual predators in society.


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## mug_cake (Jul 18, 2021)

I don't know if your bath house example tells me that these people do not sexualize nudity. It sounds like nudity is more normal there although if it really wasn't sexualized there would be no need to separate men and women in the bath house. I'm not worried about women in a bath house sexualizing me but I would feel more comfortable in a bathing suit.

I am not a big movie person but I can't think of many times I've seen a naked person in a movie that wasn't about to have sex, having sex, or just had sex. Maybe dutch kids watch sex in movies and it's not a big deal. Sex and nudity can be two different things as you have pointed out but in American movies naked people are usually having sex so "kids shouldn't watch". I'm not sure if I'd let my kids watch sex but since I don't plan on becoming a parents it's not my problem.

I do agree americans sexualize nudity more but I think the viewpoint you posted is also exaggerated. I don't think you are taking into consideration that nudity is just not a normal thing here. Maybe to you it means the same thing but to me it's different when you think nudity is sexual vs just out of place.


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## mug_cake (Jul 18, 2021)

WickerDeer said:


> That sounds really neat. I also think that there are problems with nudity stigma.
> 
> One of the most alarming aspects of it to me is online revenge porn, in which partners or previous partners (or asshole hackers or con artists or pedophiles) go about trying to exploit people by possessing nude photos of them. Like that one teen girl who committed suicide when some sick pedo internet troll kept trying to get her to do sexual things on camera, and she did make the (omygoshsohorrible) mistake of showing her tits to him, in which he then kept stalking her and harassing her across her different schools.
> 
> ...


I agree nudity can be used as a weapon in our country. Especially for women.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

daleks_exterminate said:


> I'm an American living abroad. I've lived abroad for 5 years now. I have not returned home to visit during the last 5 years and I've discovered something. America massively sexualizes nudity. Sure, to an extent I knew this, but not to the point that it wasn't literally shocking to find out that Dutch people legit go to the sauna and spa not just with their parents, grandparents, siblings (which was also shocking to be fair. I can't remember seeing anyone in my family naked. We didn't do that. Most other Americans I know did not just do that outside of like hippies or maybe (unfortunately) sexual abuse. It sure as hell was not a culturally normal thing. People wouldn't just leave the door open when showering with a see through glass door, but they do here. Meanwhile, my husband's very morally conservative Christian family grew up walking around naked after showering and such because it's just a body and that's normal here.), but also colleagues, bosses, etc. It's not sexual. It's just a normal not odd part of life. No one cares but if you make it weird or sexualize someone there then they'd care and you'd absolutely be kicked out.
> 
> As someone who was brought up in the neo-puritanical society that is America non sexual nudity is still occasionally just shocking to me. Still. I have lived here for 5 years. And like "oh right it's not a nude beach but there are naked people." And like seeing someone just pull out a boob and start breastfeeding is completely normal. I do think breastfeeding should be normal and not judged or whatever but in the US actual politicians have made comments like "if a woman exposes her breasts (in the context of breastfeeding) she should not get mad if someone touches them." And that person is still a politician.... But it's a normal argument in the Us that you need to cover up. Also over here women are allowed to be topless in general in situations that logically make sense for that. There are shampoo commercials over here that have non sexualised nudity. I was recently surprised that for a check up on an IUD the doctor was just in the room with me when I undressed and that's normal. I checked because like in the US there are changing areas separate and you're often given a thing to cover the rest of you with... Which in retrospect like that's more weird. Like "oh you cannot see my belly button only my vagina" lol
> 
> ...


Yeah, I realized just how sexually repressed Americans were when I first went to Europe at 19. It was a real eye-opener.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

mug_cake said:


> I agree nudity can be used as a weapon in our country. Especially for women.


Yeah and I am sure it is even worse in some other countries, where nudity is shamed even more.

It's wrong. 

No one should have to suffer or be shamed for something as simple as having been nude (or for having had sex, or for having taken a nude photo etc.)

I'm not saying that people should be able to distribute nude photos or something without someone's consent, but the fact that anyone would then shame the victim, rather than the predators who use nudity as an excuse to mistreat people--that's something I think our whole country needs to address, because it goes beyond "a couple bad apples" to being complicit in that type of abuse.

If nudity wasn't sexualized or shamed as much, then these predators would have less ammunition. I would hope that in Dutch society, if something like that happened--nude pics were distributed, that the community would support the person it happened to. 

Which, imo, should have happened when that young teenage girl had her photos distributed by the stalker, and instead ended up committing suicide. That is a sign that we have a problem imo. I am thinking of one highly covered case of a teen girl, but I am sure there are many more.


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## daleks_exterminate (Jul 22, 2013)

mug_cake said:


> I don't know if your bath house example tells me that these people do not sexualize nudity. It sounds like nudity is more normal there although if it really wasn't sexualized there would be no need to separate men and women in the bath house. I'm not worried about women in a bath house sexualizing me but I would feel more comfortable in a bathing suit.
> 
> I am not a big movie person but I can't think of many times I've seen a naked person in a movie that wasn't about to have sex, having sex, or just had sex. Maybe dutch kids watch sex in movies and it's not a big deal. Sex and nudity can be two different things as you have pointed out but in American movies naked people are usually having sex so "kids shouldn't watch". I'm not sure if I'd let my kids watch sex but since I don't plan on becoming a parents it's not my problem.
> 
> I do agree americans sexualize nudity more but I think the viewpoint you posted is also exaggerated. I don't think you are taking into consideration that nudity is just not a normal thing here. Maybe to you it means the same thing but to me it's different when you think nudity is sexual vs just out of place.


They don't separate anyone in sauna or spa or bathhouse as you say.

I don't know where you got that idea. I literally said everyone is together. Could you show me what indicated that to you? I'm confused by this.

Also, i did consider that nudity isn't socially accepted in the US.... I just don't agree that it should be that way. I do not think this post was exaggerating anything. Out of curiosity have you been outside of the US for a year or so? 

I don't really get the point you're trying to make, but I'd genuinely like to. I'm just really confused as you address things i didn't say or didn't see things i did say or something. So I'd like to work on being more clear in communication or whatever.


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## SgtPepper (Nov 22, 2016)

It isn't weird. We learn what is or isn't appropriate behavior from our surroundings, then pass that knowledge onto the next generation. Every now and then certain cultural revolutions will come around which will challenge hitherto held tenets, create changes, and sometimes these changes will stick around...or not. I find it more surprising the people will defend/denounce these subjective beliefs till death without really understanding them in the first place. At the end of the day culture is a form a language, and abiding by certain regulations helps us as a society understand each other and maintain a certain degree of order.


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## daleks_exterminate (Jul 22, 2013)

WickerDeer said:


> Yeah and I am sure it is even worse in some other countries, where nudity is shamed even more.
> 
> It's wrong.
> 
> ...


Yeah there is a lot more social stigma to people being gross, hitting on someone by cat calling or whatever, and being preditorial here than being shamed for "being a slut" or thought they were "asking for it" by wearing a skirt or whatever. It's a lot more egalitarian than the US is. Women are also much more blunt. Like they're taught and empowered to say "i don't like this because________" ask for raises and be blunt and honest and expect to be treated like a human and encouraged to point out when someone violates that. I think in the US girls are encouraged more to stay sweet, and be more subtle and less aggressive and be more docile and submissive or whatever but like that has obviously not been great for a lot of people.


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## daleks_exterminate (Jul 22, 2013)

SgtPepper said:


> It isn't weird. We learn what is or isn't appropriate behavior from our surroundings, then pass that knowledge onto the next generation. Every now and then certain cultural revolutions will come around which will challenge hitherto held tenets, create changes, and sometimes these changes will stick around...or not. I find it more surprising the people will defend/denounce these subjective beliefs till death without really understanding them in the first place. At the end of the day culture is a form a language, and abiding by certain regulations helps us as a society understand each other and maintain a certain degree of order.


That's a good point.

But i think it's still important and worth examination of why things are and if they make sense to continue that way.

Edit to add: as someone in the process of being diagnosed with autism i do prefer it here because of how blunt people are. Dutch people are blunt to the point Americans view them as very rude. However, a dutch person is not gonna hangout with me and complain about me to friends without telling me their issue. There is significantly less subtext and unspoken rules..if you're being weird or have food on your face a dutch person will tell you. I bring this up, because of your point about culture being like a language. I've never actually been fluent in American culture. I had issues that aren't issues here like being honest when that wasn't socially acceptable or whatever. It was extremely difficult growing up in a culture that has a lot of high context that people are just "suppose to know" and i didn't understand why people would ask me "how are you" and be annoyed when i answered honestly. Perhaps it's selfishness that wishes my own culture wasn't judgemental about things like bluntness and honesty, but i don't think that's all that it is. I'm unable to do the thing you described of going with a social expectation and construct just because it's there, but alternatively that does allow me to be a bit more the "Emperor has no clothes" than someone who pick up on that construct.


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## daleks_exterminate (Jul 22, 2013)

Let me add an obligatory: this isn't a "this country has no issues and is perfect and America sucks" there are of course negative dutch things and positive American things, but this post is being specific to the issues I've mentioned.


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## Pifanjr (Aug 19, 2014)

As an example, there's a Dutch TV show that started this year where a group of 10-11 year olds get to ask questions to a bunch of naked adults. Definitely not everyone was comfortable with that premise and some of the right-wing parties tried to stop it, but after it aired most people who were kinda on the fence were fine with it when they saw it was just an educational experience. 

There's definitely some stigma on nudity in the Netherlands and I think it's become stronger in recent years and there's definitely some very conservative people and communities here as well, but it's overall not nearly as extreme as the USA.


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## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

America was founded by puritanical extremists who fled England because of religious persecution. With this in mind, it's not surprising how backwards the culture, relative to nudity.


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## daleks_exterminate (Jul 22, 2013)

@SgtPepper just to jump onto my response to you and address this specifically:



> At the end of the day culture is a form a language, and abiding by certain regulations helps us as a society understand each other and maintain a certain degree of order.


America stigmatizes mental health more than most other places. So during the whole autism assessment stuff, I've been asked over and over "how were you not tested for this as a child and taught coping mechanisms and such?" And it is a case of a culture expectation, taboo, and degree of order with status quo sweeping things under the rug for comfort. I literally had selective mutism in elementary school, could not react when interrupted when i was focused on something, couldn't handle going to the store without being overwhelmed due to lights being too bright and buzzing, too many people, things to see, textures etc. Every time it was a massive overwhelming terrible experience. That hasn't actually gotten beter..I've just been taught by my society to hide the shit out of that because it's not acceptable and be miserable to make other people happy. There are so many more examples and traits that were issues. 

My school, teachers and pediatrician all told my parents that I was eccentric and different but bright and warned them strongly to not pursue a diagnosis due to the stigma of that, and how that label would negatively affect me. I was instead taught to hide behavior that other kids would bully me for. So change to make everyone else comfortable. That didn't actually work though because when you don't "speak the language", you end up saying things people laugh at but you don't understand why they were funny, putting yourself in dangerous situations, and being in trouble without knowing or understanding why. 

My therapist is legitimately shocked that i got away without a diagnosis because it's not a case of easy to ignore or explain traits. It was a deliberate choice to avoid stigma and a label that would go with me through out life... I wasn't even actually told of any of this until this fucking year when talking to my parents about the diagnosis stuff. It's not like kids would have bullied me more for having a name to explain the thing. Making friends was pretty challenging as a child despite not knowing what made me different. Not having a name didn't make the thing cease to exist... It just made it more frustrating to not understand the what and why behind that difference. And being taught to force myself to be more social and work hard to learn to make others didn't make me more comfortable and confident in those environments......it made me internalize and hide my discomfort until i was home where i could let all of that out in an "okay" see "not troublesome for others" way. 

So.... Personally no, i am not a fan of "society runs on bullshit unstated expectations" as that ideology has literally fucked not just me over, but literally anyone with any type of mental issue or neurodevelopmental disorder and 1/3 Americans have bad anxiety and or bad depression sometimes in their life time..... 1 in 3! That's not a low number of the population. It's not a minority so low and misunderstood to be stigmatized and scared to seek treatment. 

There are some pretty negative effects of caring so much about the status quo.


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## daleks_exterminate (Jul 22, 2013)

Although.... 

Maybe I'm just derailing my own thread at this point and getting off topic.

Sorry about that.


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## Not Emily (Nov 9, 2021)

I mean America is a pornographic cesspoll in the minds of Middle Easterners, so it's all relative. For Western civilization I would say America is certainly the most prudish. I don't know that I would be a good definer of morality, so I'll leave that to the NFJs to decide if it's for better or worse.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Pifanjr said:


> There's definitely some stigma on nudity in the Netherlands and I think it's become stronger in recent years and there's definitely some very conservative people and communities here as well, but it's overall not nearly as extreme as the USA.


Sometimes I think the internet has influenced the social landscape in ways I didn't foresee? Like I think the rise in the acceptance of "socialist" things like universal (single payer) health care in the US is maybe due to people in the US more easily connecting with people in Europe (or getting access to news sources from Europe or other continents with developed nations (like Australia or Canada)), but at the same time I kind of wonder if more conservative stuff spreads online too--like maybe some nations in the Middle East stigmatize nudity and sex even more than the US, and then also the US is pretty conservative and probably pushes a lot of conservative social agendas online too.

Idk--just something I've been wondering about.

I kind of wished that the internet would help open people's minds, but maybe it also helps close them when there's a lot of aggression or propaganda (like the revenge porn or the aggressive trolls that stalk or harass women, which is unfortunately common online).


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## Cephalonimbus (Dec 6, 2010)

I do think you're painting a bit of an over-idealized picture of the Netherlands. The idea that Dutch women don't experience problems with catcalling is not that accurate IMO. The past couple of years it's actually been a bit of an issue in some of the larger cities, especially Rotterdam which has been arguing over supposed laws to outlaw catcalling, then backpeddling because they would be an infringement upon freedom of speech, etc.

* *












Straatintimidatie | Rotterdam.nl


Rotterdam accepteert niet dat mensen op straat seksueel geïntimideerd worden. Rotterdam is een stad waar iedereen zich veilig moet kunnen bewegen en daar hoort seksuele straatintimidatie niet bij.




www.rotterdam.nl












Nafluiten en kushandjes geven op straat mag, is vrijheid van meningsuiting


Mensen die zich in Rotterdam schuldig maken aan straatintimidatie, door bijvoorbeeld iemand na te sissen, ongewenst aan te spreken of kushandjes te geven, kunnen daarvoor niet bestraft worden. Een verbod daarop druist namelijk in tegen de grondwettelijke vrijheid van meningsuiting.




www.rtlnieuws.nl






Then again, Rotterdam is a sewer and if the worst that happens to you there is being catcalled then count your blessings :^)

That being said, I've always been very confused about the sexualization of nudity and the moral outrage that follows in the US. This is especially apparent in media where violence is largely taken for granted, but the moment there's the slightest bit of nudity it suddenly because an "adult" film... yeah but what about the guy who got cut up into pieces with a chainsaw? Isn't that a bit of an adult scenario as well? Are kids less traumatized by gratuitous violence than by the bare nipple in the shower scene?

I recall a horror film from a few years ago where a bunch of flayed corpses got censored by means of CGI editing so you could no longer see their naughty bits... just the uncorrupt parts of stripped tissue were visible so the fragile little minds of minors were spared from the eldritch knowledge that people are actually all naked when they dont have any clothes on.


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## UpClosePersonal (Apr 18, 2014)

Smaller countries tend to have a shared sense of values which the US does not have.

I'm sure there are many more examples of understandings shared among the populations in smaller countries beyond just the acceptability of nudity in their society. 

I would venture to guess that it's the mixing of a multitude of people of different cultural backgrounds in the US that contributes to the breakdown of values among people of the same culture.

Laws and practices in the US therefore tend to be more conservative and address things that are an issue there than are an issue in countries that are more self governing in many ways.


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## BigApplePi (Dec 1, 2011)

A cultural phenomenon bigger than I can imagine.



daleks_exterminate said:


> I'm an American living abroad. I've lived abroad for 5 years now. I have not returned home to visit during the last 5 years and I've discovered something. America massively sexualizes nudity.


It certainly does and it is perpetuated not only by religious factions but by Hollywood and commercial enterprises as well. Ever see the movie "Porky's"? A group of teens get all hot and bothered trying to glimpse nekkid girls in the shower. Funny movie? Marketing 32 shades of lipstick.



mia-me said:


> America was founded by puritanical extremists who fled England because of religious persecution. With this in mind, it's not surprising how backwards the culture, relative to nudity.


It had to start somewhere.



daleks_exterminate said:


> Maybe I'm just derailing my own thread at this point and getting off topic.


I don't mind it at all being in this thread. It fits. I see what is thought of as an individual claiming to depart from the norm as the same as the USA culture departing from a natural body image norm.

I suppose any cultural phenomenon can be taken to the extreme and made a part of the culture. Not just isolating sexual differences but the worship of moneyed wealth as well (the USA). Or a culture where a female body is not seen at all (burka clothing).

I once heard the USA as being a culture of "beer, baseball and breasts."


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## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

BigApplePi said:


> It had to start somewhere.


Sure. When something with such deep roots into its founding, it remains heavily infused into its culture many centuries later. Bear in mind that as countries go, America is one of the youngest with plenty of growing pains. Perhaps the sexual revolution should be considered its hormonal stage.


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## BigApplePi (Dec 1, 2011)

mia-me said:


> Bear in mind that as countries go, America is one of the youngest with plenty of growing pains.


Is America too big for its breeches? What right does it have to spread its views on sexuality when it can't even let big countries like Russia and China alone? Give it credit for supporting Europe and some Eastern nations though, but is that enough?


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## Debtun (Dec 3, 2021)

Yanks are simultaneously both extremely puritanical and somehow over-sexualize every little thing. It's a product of the country being found by descendants of puritanical Anglo-protestant settlers. They have a very backwards, repressed attitude towards sexuality and nudity, which isn't the case in most of Europe and the rest of the world.


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## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

BigApplePi said:


> Is America too big for its breeches?


Nope. 



> What right does it have to spread its views on sexuality when it can't even let big countries like Russia and China alone? Give it credit for supporting Europe and some Eastern nations though, but is that enough?


Considering how Russia and China have been interfering in American politics and culture for many decades where the last ten to twenty years have been through the Interwebs, that's odd that you should state this.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

daleks_exterminate said:


> Dutch people are blunt to the point Americans view them as very rude.


Not just Americans 

_"Now you’ve heard the rumours, the stereotypes, the hearsay, and the clichés -and I’m here to tell you, that like the majority of gossip, they are, in fact…all absolutely true! Dutch people are direct. Direct to the point of shocking at times. Direct to the point of “what the [email protected]#$ did he just say to me?!?. If you plan to spend any times in the lowlands you had better get used to it, and fast!"_
https://stuffdutchpeoplelike.com/2011/05/28/dutch-directness/


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## BigApplePi (Dec 1, 2011)

mia-me said:


> Considering how Russia and China have been interfering in American politics and culture for many decades where the last ten to twenty years have been through the Interwebs, that's odd that you should state this.


Certainly Russia and China are pushy and throw their weight around every chance they get. The thing is, so does the US of A. This is hard to see if one is in the US. Is the US that much more a democracy than those countries? I guess so. The US can say something about the moral high ground. Good. But what about letting competitors be competitors? I'm not expressing this well. I guess what I want to say is Russia and China are bad, but they are not ALL bad. 

You think Russia and China interfere with USA politics? The USA does that to them in spades. It's just that the USA believes in itself.


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## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

BigApplePi said:


> Certainly Russia and China are pushy and throw their weight around every chance they get. The thing is, so does the US of A. This is hard to see if one is in the US. Is the US that much more a democracy than those countries? I guess so. The US can say something about the moral high ground. Good. But what about letting competitors be competitors? I'm not expressing this well. I guess what I want to say is Russia and China are bad, but they are not ALL bad.


So, you're fine with China demanding knowledge of all American proprietory information, before American companies can do business in China? How would this be remotely construed as letting competitors be competitors?



> You think Russia and China interfere with USA politics? The USA does that to them in spades. It's just that the USA believes in itself.


Your point was that the U.S. inferes with Russia and China. My response was that Russia and China do the same. For that matter, both countries want to topple the U.S. because they want to be top dog. Even though they're allies, the two countries even sabotage each other since apparently, there can only be one.


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## Debtun (Dec 3, 2021)

mia-me said:


> Nope.
> 
> Considering how Russia and China have been interfering in American politics and culture for many decades where the last ten to twenty years have been through the Interwebs, that's odd that you should state this.


Lol Yanks have been doing the exact same with developing countries, but especially in Latin America. It's high time they got a taste of their own medicine. Cry me a river.



mia-me said:


> So, you're fine with China demanding knowledge of all American proprietory information, before American companies can do business in China? How would this be remotely construed as letting competitors be competitors?


Yes, absolutely.



BigApplePi said:


> Is America too big for its breeches?


Yes.


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## Crowbo (Jul 9, 2017)

It's probably because America is so backwards compared to every other developed nation.


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

I agree

I’m saying that as someone who makes some of their money exploiting this and selling their nudes. As well as then being most comfortable fully clothed, within my daily life. I got alotta flack from people for having a pole up in my living room. And also letting my then 12 yr old daughter watch Game of Thrones. (Interestingly she tended to cover her eyes for nude scenes, but be able to stomach any of the violent scenes, I’d told her at the time I found how easy she stomached violence more disturbing than that she was exposed to nudity).

I don’t want to say I never walk room to room naked in the middle of changing and that my kids haven’t seen it. But I tend to be more discrete and like things, like towels and robes. I always assumed my weird hypocrisy and contradictions back and forth with it came from coming from a home where my mom was like a hippie always nude (we used to beg her to put her clothes on so we could have friends come over 🤣, or sit on the couch without her vajj exposed). I always knew I never wanted my kids to feel like they had to beg me to get dressed, lol.


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## Not Emily (Nov 9, 2021)

mia-me said:


> America was founded by puritanical extremists who fled England because of religious persecution. With this in mind, it's not surprising how backwards the culture, relative to nudity.


While obviously true, what's odd about that is how New England became one of the most open-minded places in the US, being the birthplace of unitarian universalism. It's the South with its Scots-Irish settlers than seem the most culturally traditional compared to Western Europe.


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## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

Not Emily said:


> While obviously true, what's odd about that is how New England became one of the most open-minded places in the US, being the birthplace of unitarian universalism. It's the South with its Scots-Irish settlers than seem the most culturally traditional compared to Western Europe.


New England was the destination port so it experienced waves of immigration. This created a pot-pourri, hence the need for greater tolerance towards outgroups.


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## BigApplePi (Dec 1, 2011)

mia-me said:


> So, you're fine with China demanding knowledge of all American proprietory information, before American companies can do business in China? How would this be remotely construed as letting competitors be competitors?


I'm not up on the detail there. If China wants to know about companies doing business in their country, the U.S. certainly wants the same from them. That makes sense. The U.S. doesn't want Chinese companies to learn U.S. military secrets or even private secrets. As for competitors being competitors, maybe the rules should be discussed. Don't give out private info; don't steal private info. That applies to internal U.S. companies as well as between nations.




mia-me said:


> Your point was that the U.S. inferes with Russia and China. My response was that Russia and China do the same. For that matter, both countries want to topple the U.S. because they want to be top dog. Even though they're allies, the two countries even sabotage each other since apparently, there can only be one.


Who says those countries want to topple the U.S.? "Topple" is too strong a word as that is not likely to happen. What they want is to assert themselves on the global stage. An example is this. I'm not studied in the politics of this, but a country wanting access to ports seems legit to me providing it is not war strategy.
https://www.airuniversity.af.edu/Portals/10/JEMEAA/Journals/Volume-02_Issue-1/Chauhan.pdf

It seems to me if the U.S. and Russia were more friendly, the U.S. could give the okay for Russia to want access and they could ask for something in return.

The "topple" language reminds me of sports where people yell "kill the umpire." They don't really think of killing the umpire. They just don't want unfavorable umpire decisions. The bad thing is this is not only rude, but some nut case is likely to misinterpret and carry a gun to the game.


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## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

BigApplePi said:


> I'm not up on the detail there. If China wants to know about companies doing business in their country, the U.S. certainly wants the same from them. That makes sense. The U.S. doesn't want Chinese companies to learn U.S. military secrets or even private secrets. As for competitors being competitors, maybe the rules should be discussed. Don't give out private info; don't steal private info. That applies to internal U.S. companies as well as between nations.


Dude, they want all patented trade secrets. That's nuts.



> Who says those countries want to topple the U.S.? "Topple" is too strong a word as that is not likely to happen. What they want is to assert themselves on the global stage. An example is this. I'm not studied in the politics of this, but a country wanting access to ports seems legit to me providing it is not war strategy.
> https://www.airuniversity.af.edu/Portals/10/JEMEAA/Journals/Volume-02_Issue-1/Chauhan.pdf
> 
> It seems to me if the U.S. and Russia were more friendly, the U.S. could give the okay for Russia to want access and they could ask for something in return.
> ...


Don't even go there, considering how Trump was the Moscovite candidate. Talk about almost completely sabotaging U.S. soft power on a global level. I don't want to hear your b/s.


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## Debtun (Dec 3, 2021)

mia-me said:


> Don't even go there, considering how Trump was the Moscovite candidate. Talk about almost completely sabotaging U.S. soft power on a global level. I don't want to hear your b/s.


And yet his cabinet was even more severe in terms of sanctioning Russia than Obama's. Please fuck off with your Russia gate neoliberal wankstain conspiracy bullshit. The CIA and Washington have been been spreading their cutlural imperialist propaganda and overthrowing legitimately elected democratic governments in developing nations for decades, and yet some Russian bots spamming a couple of memes on Facebook and Trump having some tenous business relations with a few Russian Oligarchs 20 years ago is somehow the equivalent of the U.S.A. being toppled by Putin.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Idk. I don't think as a teenager back in the day that I could've got naked around females my age or older without getting a raging boner. I mean now I probably could, but I'm 43 now. But I still wouldn't want to.


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## Drecon (Jun 20, 2016)

I've been thinking about it and I have come to the conclusion that most aspects of USA culture are based around fear in some way or another. It seems really unhealthy how fear is a driving factor in almost any discussion about how things should be and all people can think about is how dangerous everything is. 

Maybe it's the fact that our country is so small and we are forced to live pretty close together(relatively), but in The Netherlands, there is a 'live and let live' philosophy along the lines of: "as long as you're not bothering anyone, just do whatever makes you happy". 
That said, the discussion around social issues has become more and more difficult in recent years, in our country just as much as in some others. People with fringe ideas and violent ideas get more of a platform and it's starting to take its toll on how much people are willing to say in public.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

I find it annoying when people project their own attitudes about sex onto other people's bodies.

I think it's also the hypocrisy.


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## EdwardianGenZ (Dec 15, 2021)

mug_cake said:


> I don't know if your bath house example tells me that these people do not sexualize nudity. It sounds like nudity is more normal there although if it really wasn't sexualized there would be no need to separate men and women in the bath house. I'm not worried about women in a bath house sexualizing me but I would feel more comfortable in a bathing suit.
> 
> I am not a big movie person but I can't think of many times I've seen a naked person in a movie that wasn't about to have sex, having sex, or just had sex. Maybe dutch kids watch sex in movies and it's not a big deal. Sex and nudity can be two different things as you have pointed out but in American movies naked people are usually having sex so "kids shouldn't watch". I'm not sure if I'd let my kids watch sex but since I don't plan on becoming a parents it's not my problem.
> 
> I do agree americans sexualize nudity more but I think the viewpoint you posted is also exaggerated. I don't think you are taking into consideration that nudity is just not a normal thing here. Maybe to you it means the same thing but to me it's different when you think nudity is sexual vs just out of place.


I agree with all your points. 
As an American who never left the county, I don't usually realize how sexualized our culture is, nor do I really think much about it. (Until now lol) There definitely are some changes we need to implement- specifically regarding over-sexualizing women and men. However, going to the extreme of bathing naked with you friends, family, colleagues, and even your boss....um, no thanks


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