# Hello everyone! New ENxJ here! (And not sure where to place myself)



## Spider2YBanana (Jun 1, 2014)

Leo Argent said:


> OK, sure thing!
> 
> MBTI:
> I've always been fascinated by personality tests and such - and the MBTI seems to be the most scientific one out there. The Enneagram is also interesting, but I'm not as familiar with that one. It ties into my desire to understand how people think and delve into their motives. So figuring out people's MBTI types is a hobby of mine. I'm not terribly good at it yet, but I'm improving rapidly. Of course, my confusion about my own MBTI type is because I am so keyed into success that I am able to adapt my personality to suit the circumstances. For instance, my TJ nature comes out a lot in academic and athletic competitions, but I switch to more Fi when dealing with people I am close to (I especially emphasize the Fi when around Feeling women). So that adaptability makes it more difficult to figure out what my actual functions are. Of course, the more difficult the problem, the more fascinating it is to solve. Yet my J hates unresolved problems and I was having difficulty figuring it out conclusively via free online tests. So I came here.
> ...


ENTJ who's competitive? Haha who would've guessed? JK! Lol!

But seriously the legal arena seems like it would be a great fit for an ENTJ! And you seem to very proud of your work so far. How do you see yourself as an ENTJ impacting how you work as a lawyer? In other words, what do you bring to the table in the legal world that other types don't necessarily have?


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## Leo Argent (Jun 9, 2014)

Haha yeah!

Well, I'm not threatened by conflict. When the going gets tough, that just makes it more fun! I like the challenge. So that helps in high-pressure environments with big cases and such. I'm a good public speaker, so that's just a little important for law haha. I'm able to come up with a wide array of contingency plans based on patterns I see and the way events could unfold. My focus on the logic of the law also allows me to ignore irrelevant concerns (like how my day was going, the weather, hunger, fatigue, and other things that don't matter in court). I'm not sure if it's an ENTJ trait, but my idealism helps me have a lot of passion and energy when I agree with my client. So those things certainly help.

How about you? What do you do?


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## Spider2YBanana (Jun 1, 2014)

Leo Argent said:


> Haha yeah!
> 
> Well, I'm not threatened by conflict. When the going gets tough, that just makes it more fun! I like the challenge. So that helps in high-pressure environments with big cases and such. I'm a good public speaker, so that's just a little important for law haha. I'm able to come up with a wide array of contingency plans based on patterns I see and the way events could unfold. My focus on the logic of the law also allows me to ignore irrelevant concerns (like how my day was going, the weather, hunger, fatigue, and other things that don't matter in court). I'm not sure if it's an ENTJ trait, but my idealism helps me have a lot of passion and energy when I agree with my client. So those things certainly help.
> 
> How about you? What do you do?


You sound like a lawyer I'd wanna call if I was ever in a pickle! Haha!

I'm actually in my fifth year of undergrad as a Biology and Biological Anthropology double major with a Classics minor. I'm currently going through the med school application processes and they are delightful... *sarcasm*. Hopefully, I can get into an M.D./Ph.D. program so I can study oncology and biochemistry to eventually become a pediatric oncologist. But I'm still at the beginning stages of all this so we'll see where life leads me.

So what drew you to criminal prosecution compared to other legal fields?


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## Leo Argent (Jun 9, 2014)

Haha thanks! I'd be happy to help! It's always nice to get good clients.

Sounds like you have an excellent plan for your life! Pediatric Oncology is a noble field and one where you could do a lot of good. I could definitely see an ENTJ with high Fi doing well in that arena. It takes a lot of work and it's at the cutting edge of some really advanced science, so that NTJ definitely comes in handy! With E and high Fi that would help a lot to have the warm and personable demeanor necessary for dealing with young children who are really hurting. So sounds like a good fit!

The Classics and Biological Anthropology aspects are interesting, though. Sounds like a love of history binds those interests together. Am I right?

I'm quite the history buff myself!

Criminal Prosecution is one of very few areas of law that still involves a lot of trial and time in the court-room. The vast majority of lawyers nowadays almost never go to trial. Personally, I love everything about trials and courtroom drama! Being a prosecutor in specific appeals to me since I get to protect the victims, bring law and order, and prosecute the stuffing out of some pretty terrible crooks! It's really eye-opening to see how low people can sink and what sort of crimes happen even in supposedly safe jurisdictions! Still, it makes my friends and family look like angels by comparison. So that's always good.


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## Spider2YBanana (Jun 1, 2014)

Leo Argent said:


> Haha thanks! I'd be happy to help! It's always nice to get good clients.
> 
> Sounds like you have an excellent plan for your life! Pediatric Oncology is a noble field and one where you could do a lot of good. I could definitely see an ENTJ with high Fi doing well in that arena. It takes a lot of work and it's at the cutting edge of some really advanced science, so that NTJ definitely comes in handy! With E and high Fi that would help a lot to have the warm and personable demeanor necessary for dealing with young children who are really hurting. So sounds like a good fit!
> 
> ...


Haha yeah I guess I like the connections between studying humans culturally and biologically! It's a good fit for me plus it can help with learning to balance viewing patients as not just case studies but also people.

I can definitely see the action oriented nature of an ENTJ liking the excitement of the courtroom. I for one love the spotlight! And I think that auxiliary Ni must help in the strategy necessary to help assemble a successful case by compiling the evidence and recognizing the laws that are in play. Fair assessment?


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## Leo Argent (Jun 9, 2014)

Well humans are fascinating creatures! So I can't blame you!

And that's very true about the balance issue. I've talked with a number of other people looking to go into medical science and I've come to the conclusion that the only people well-suited for medicine are those that have both the ability to clinically, objectively, and scientifically do the work, and the ability to still show kindness and compassion to their patients. My aunt is a classic example of someone who couldn't do that. She was highly intelligent and more than capable of doing the work. She was also extraordinarily kind and empathetic. Yet she was too empathetic. She was fine doing science, but couldn't handle seeing all the suffering! As soon as she saw someone in pain, she was 100% F and all her T went by the wayside. Eventually, she decided to work for a medical company in a non-physician role and did quite well. So you're completely right! That balance between T and F is pretty pivotal for medicine.

Oh I love the spotlight too!

Very true! I'm not sure how anyone practices law without Ni to be honest! There's such a ridiculously vast amount of variables! Obviously, you first have to figure out what facts and law are relevant to your case or likely to be used by your opponent. Even if you are able to anticipate and plan for all variables there, you still have to worry about the human element. The judge, each juror, and each witness is a whole range of new variables to account for so you have to constantly have your Ni working to understand all the ideas flying around at high speed, figure out where all those disparate ideas are heading, and then plan for every eventuality! So law is very much an N heavy field. If you weren't able to use N to figure out the patterns before they happen, it's too late! You lose!

But that's kind of why I like law. It makes very good use of everything ENTJs do best!


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## Spider2YBanana (Jun 1, 2014)

Leo Argent said:


> Well humans are fascinating creatures! So I can't blame you!
> 
> And that's very true about the balance issue. I've talked with a number of other people looking to go into medical science and I've come to the conclusion that the only people well-suited for medicine are those that have both the ability to clinically, objectively, and scientifically do the work, and the ability to still show kindness and compassion to their patients. My aunt is a classic example of someone who couldn't do that. She was highly intelligent and more than capable of doing the work. She was also extraordinarily kind and empathetic. Yet she was too empathetic. She was fine doing science, but couldn't handle seeing all the suffering! As soon as she saw someone in pain, she was 100% F and all her T went by the wayside. Eventually, she decided to work for a medical company in a non-physician role and did quite well. So you're completely right! That balance between T and F is pretty pivotal for medicine.
> 
> ...


Haha! That's about right for the medical field!

It's funny that you say that about Ns in law. I have an INTP friend looking to apply to law school. Currently he's involved as an intern at a firm local to him. He is big into the exploration of law and he hopes to do international focused work. He's much more of an ideas guy than a connections guy. He'll come up with the creative ways of looking at everything and this isn't just law. I guess that's his Ti-Ne working together. But the man can't make a plan for the life of him. He's not very good at putting those ideas into reality. 

My question is, how does an ENTJ such as yourself work with lawyers or legal workers of other types since I'm assuming you don't work with exclusively ENTJs?


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

@Leo Argent

Have you figured out what types you are not? This may also lead you to which type you are.


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## Leo Argent (Jun 9, 2014)

@Spider2YBanana

Hm. An INTP in law? I can see him being a great ideas guy, but if he can't make plans and put them into reality, he may have difficulty in the field of law. I think an INTP would have some difficulty with the courtroom setting as well - though I could easily see an INTP doing well in non-courtroom/legal office work. Actually, his ability to generate ideas and see things from unusual perspectives could be really fantastic for contract law. He would be able to foresee all loopholes and plug them up. That would honestly be really great for a lot of non-courtroom law. Still, his difficulties in making plans would be problematic and he would probably need to work on that or partner up with someone that has a fully functioning J.

Well, if I had to guess at people's personality types, I think most lawyers I've met have been NTs of some form, though other types do choose law and do well (often NFs and occasionally SJs). I've found that the motivations to be a lawyer vary a lot between the types. For most NTs I've met, it seems like we all agree that law is an intellectual system designed to promote justice: punishing evil, rewarding (or at least protecting) good, and ensuring a fair, stable, orderly, and efficient society that everyone can enjoy. For the NFs, law is a lot more personal. They share our overall view of law, but really don't care as much about "law" as a system for running civilizations. What really draws them in is law as a system for defending the weak, healing the wounded (or at least paying their medical bills), and overall being the healer, protector, and liberator for whatever client they have. To the SJs, it seems like their philosophy is very much Law and Order and "Just the Facts" as they say. They like the idea of a fair, stable, orderly and efficient society but from what I can see it seems like they are far more utilitarian than NFs or NTs. Ivory Tower legal debates about the nature and philosophy of law don't seem to interest them at all. I'm guessing they probably have difficulty with amorphous areas of law and might have difficulty adapting plans mid-trial, but they would have a lot more patience with the nitty-gritty world of administrative law and contract law than I do. They seem much less easily bored. I don't think I've met any SP lawyers, so I can't really comment on them.

As for how I deal with other types, I try to figure out what motivates them. Do they care about issue X, why do they care about it, and what are their likely goals? Usually you can spot the Feeler types pretty easily and I know their main motivation is compassion so I try to appeal to their emotional desire to be the champion of the weak. For SJs I try to keep things literal and focus on the actual black-letter law. For NTs I already understand how they think so there's no real difficulty there. The only issue with ENTJs is that we all like being top dog. Official law office hierarchy helps solve that dilemma, but for those of us on the same level it does get very competitive. Of course an easy fix to reduce tension from office politics is specialization. Each ENTJ can be top dog in their own field or specialty. NFs usually are too focused on their clients' emotional needs to care about office rankings. I find they usually like me since I'm generally the most empathetic of the ENTJs in the office. Plus I don't create stupid, pointless drama.

@tanstaafl28

Actually, over on the other thread, it seems like everyone's in agreement that I am an ENTJ. Apparently the issue was that I've worked very hard over the past few years to develop my Fi in order to balance myself out.


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## Spider2YBanana (Jun 1, 2014)

Leo Argent said:


> @Spider2YBanana
> 
> Hm. An INTP in law? I can see him being a great ideas guy, but if he can't make plans and put them into reality, he may have difficulty in the field of law. I think an INTP would have some difficulty with the courtroom setting as well - though I could easily see an INTP doing well in non-courtroom/legal office work. Actually, his ability to generate ideas and see things from unusual perspectives could be really fantastic for contract law. He would be able to foresee all loopholes and plug them up. That would honestly be really great for a lot of non-courtroom law. Still, his difficulties in making plans would be problematic and he would probably need to work on that or partner up with someone that has a fully functioning J.
> 
> ...


Yeah he doesn't seem like he'd like courtroom law since he's not a spotlight guy. And he does seem to enjoy contractual law and he really likes constitutional law. He seems to be able to interpret these documents in almost every way imaginable under the sun.

The way you described working with NTs, NFs, and SJs in law, is almost the exact same way it is for me in medicine. I'm great with the NTs because we argue how does the data fit with the principles we have concluded are the most likely. NFs are rarer and usually don't do the lab work I tend to like but I see them in clinic a lot and they have amazing people skills. The SJs, the facts speak for themselves and they are great at detail work and focusing on the nitty-gritty of each experiment so it turns out well. And boy do I appreciate that since I often look for the forest not the trees and gloss over details. 

Funny how all the types work together in different fields.


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## Cossack (Jul 26, 2013)

You sound a lot like an INFP to me.


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## Leo Argent (Jun 9, 2014)

@Spider2YBanana

Great! Sounds like your INTP friend has found his place in contract law!

And that's interesting! What you say makes sense about how the MBTI types would interact in the medical/scientific arena. And yeah, thank God for those SJs and their love of nitty-gritty details! That stuff tends to bore me, but it needs to get done!
@Cossack

I sound like an INFP to you? Why is that?

Honestly, I'm pretty confident that I'm an ENTJ at this point, but I'll listen to what you have to say anyway.


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## Cossack (Jul 26, 2013)

I was just kidding. I just wanted to see what you would say.


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## Leo Argent (Jun 9, 2014)

@Cossack

Haha! OK! You really had me thinking hard there! Hm...what on earth have I done that even remotely resembles an INFP? LOL!

But yeah, I'm very curious by nature and I love friendly debate. So I kinda had to respond. May I ask your type?


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## Cossack (Jul 26, 2013)

@Leo Argent

I don't know my type, but it's probably either INTP, ENTP, INFJ, or INFP. I was just messing around. I wasn't trying to read you or anything.


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## Leo Argent (Jun 9, 2014)

@Cossack

Haha OK, I understand!

Maybe you could start a "what's my type" thread for yourself?

Your tendency to say things just to see what kind of reaction you get is something I've seen with ENTPs and INFPs before. But obviously I can't really give any opinion right now since I know virtually nothing about your personality.


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## dulcinea (Aug 22, 2011)

@Leo Argent, so I see you ended up being ENTJ. Cool, I like ENTJs. I like Te's even though I can't Te to save my life, lol, cuz I find them the easiest types to talk to, oddly, lol.


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## Leo Argent (Jun 9, 2014)

@dulcinea

Thank you very much! Well, we Te's do tend to be rather straightforward and honest so maybe that has something to do with it.

Personally, I enjoy being around NFs, so the feeling is mutual


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## noz (Dec 7, 2009)

You seem ENFJish in that hot or not thread. You have yet to dump cold water over anyone's head, ENTJ style.


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## Leo Argent (Jun 9, 2014)

@noz

But why would I want to dump cold water on anyone? I don't really see any logical reason to do that.

I've just come to the conclusion that the fastest and best way to succeed in life is to be kind and polite. I'm still assertive and a hard charger, but I've found that being harsh or insensitive is rarely beneficial. Plus, being nice is simply more enjoyable.

Besides, I'm no good at Fe (ENFJ is FeDom). I can't read a room to save my life haha! I make individual emotional connections with people to understand how they are feeling - that is, Fi.

By contrast, ENTJ is TeDom and Te is very natural for me! I have an entirely separate threat all about this issue where they asked me to do a role-playing MBTI test and all my solutions were Te-Ni based. I excel in traditional T arenas like science, law, and debate. ENFJ uses Ti and I don't even understand how Ti works haha!

I admit that I'm not a textbook ENTJ, but it fits better than any other type - and ENTJs can develop their Fi! After all, Fi was once extremely difficult for me.


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## noz (Dec 7, 2009)

I see what you're saying, but it's not really about logic, it's about behavior (I type off of behavior not function analysis, FYI.) I suppose you could be an exception, but every ENTJ i've known professionally or personally can't resist "reality checking" people when they give input - not cuz ENTJs want to be mean, but to help correct delusions so they can be more productive. Shark Tank's Kevin O'Leary comes to mind if you want an example to google.

in any case, not a big deal  welcome to teh 'rums.


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## Leo Argent (Jun 9, 2014)

@noz

Ah, I see! That makes more sense now. My ENTJ typing was based on functions and what functions I use. Do you see a distinction between what functions people use and their behavior?

I know I was typed as Enneagram Type 1w9 and that is more about motivations than it is about behavior or functions per se.

Yeah, I do have a tendency to "reality check" people. I got in so much trouble as a kid for correcting everyone haha! I don't really see it as being mean. It's just I assume everyone wants to be factually accurate. I mean, isn't knowing the truth more important than anything else? So if I can correct them in a way that doesn't embarrass them, I do. Still, I didn't see any factual or logical errors in that thread recently. Earlier? Definitely! There was waaaayyy too much drama going on and it didn't even make sense. But it was too much of a mess for me to fix. For the last few pages, it's been very friendly and informative though.

I will admit though that I once thought I might be ENFJ - hence two threads dedicated to it! But it seems like I'm an ENTJ with well-developed Fi. I have noticed that my F comes out a LOT more when dealing with women - especially women who are Feelers.

Anyway, thanks for the welcome!


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## Anfie24 (Dec 25, 2013)

You sound like an ENTJ.

You don't have to be a sociopath to be a thinker, NT type, or in your case an ENTJ.


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## Leo Argent (Jun 9, 2014)

@Anfie24

Thanks! Yeah, there's an odd preconception about T, NT, and especially ENTJs that they're all sociopaths or something. Even ENTJs can be nice! In fact, most of the ENTJs I've met have been very easy to get along with.

For me, I treat everyone with courtesy and respect. It is possible to use T to be nice: treating people fairly, acting in ways that benefit the people you care about, giving objective advice, enjoying long discussions about shared interests/passions, etc.

Once I get to know someone and make a personal connection, then I start to show more Fi and I'm nice to them on a more emotional level.


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## Anfie24 (Dec 25, 2013)

Absolutely.

Logic and respect/courtesy are not mutually exclusive.


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## Leo Argent (Jun 9, 2014)

Agreed!


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