# Endurance in arguments & other factors



## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

The mistype thread's latest topic inspired me to make a thread about this, so here goes: *How much endurance do you have when it comes to an argument?* Personally, I get really fired up at first, but I tend to become frustrated and impatient if we start going around in circles and the argument drags on for too long. It just gets boring when it's not going anywhere, and I start tuning them out or I outright move on to something else. This is especially true with people I'm not close to. 

I tend to come off as feisty or aggressive when I am trying to make a point I firmly believe in; but it's not a steady forcefulness, it's more erratic and has its ups and downs. It highly depends on my interest in the discussion, and how much the topic itself means to me. 

(PS: Obviously when I'm arguing with a loved one, there is much more vulnerability than what I just described, and I find myself unable to move on easily from an argument unless it is resolved. I think it would be best to consider personal arguments in this thread as exceptions rather than the rule, due to the added vulnerability.)


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## Sixty Nein (Feb 13, 2011)

I like to argue whenever there is fun times involved or whatever. I get all hype, and I tend to drag it out if I'm like on equal footing. If I'm like just shutting down a fool with my INTJ MASTER RACE logic then I get bored tho and if I am overpowered I'm like fuck it get out of here with your balls in tact son!


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## AST (Oct 1, 2013)

I'm willing to keep arguing until the other person gives up. That doesn't mean I always will, because as soon as continuing the argument ceases to serve my purposes (whether it's to prove a point, gather data, entertainment, any number of reasons), I'll opt out. There's no point. As long as the argument serves my purposes, it's game on, though.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

As long as my inner conflict treshold never goes critical and the material keeps offer new insights
into something that engages me, there is no limit.

In reality I must often tap out due to hitting treshold, 
and even more often due to the staleness of the topic.

Edit:
Sometimes some people even admit to being wrong.
But that is not the prime reason arguments end in my experience.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

I am very comfortable with conflict, and very few things even register to me as actual conflict as opposed to a random somewhat heated exchange at best. My energy is steady in a conflict, no matter how forceful I may get or seem. There's no premature withdrawal because things are 'too heated' or 'contentious' or because I don't want to taint my 'image'. If I have a point to make, I make it directly and unambiguously. That in itself is perceived as aggression by people, whether or not aggression is involved. This is key, given we're looking at it from an Enneagram lens.

I don't, however, have any issue walking away from something that I don't gain from in any way, even if it's just entertainment at someone's expens. No one can 'bait' me into a fight, against my volition. Conflict starts and ends on my own terms.

There is nothing indirect, overly planned or, conversely, erratic about my engagement and level of energy in a conflict. As I said, steady, sturdy (thanks @_Marlowe_ for using that very applicable term in a conversation we had earlier) and expansive is how I'd describe it.


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## chimeric (Oct 15, 2011)

I'm not into arguing, but I'm also not into relenting. I'll make my thoughts known and then shut off, without budging. This is if I'm convinced I'm not in the wrong. If there's doubt over that on my part, it may play out differently.


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## Coburn (Sep 3, 2010)

I've never needed endurance. When I argue IRL, I end it.

So to answer your question, I'm not sure how much endurance I have. I know at least for online, I tend to get very bored with arguments halfway in...then I forget to respond and it never gets resolved.

So low endurance maybe, if it were put to the test?


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## -Alpha- (Dec 30, 2013)

Conflict is fine if it serves a purpose.

I wouldn't dirty my hands with needless fighting.


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## The Scorched Earth (May 17, 2010)

I don't really do arguments, especially online. It's pointless and it resolves nothing.


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## hal0hal0 (Sep 1, 2012)

I pick my battles carefully and tend to step lightly. I don't really get into "arguments" because they usually end up being either discussions instead or I just nip them in the bud completely if I sense they are going to be either overly time-consuming (big deciding factor, actually), pointless, or excessively hostile (TBH, my "hostility" meter is kinda crappy and probably needs to go into the shop for repairs/calibration, but that's probably because I'm a recluse). It really depends on my temperament and whether or not it's going somewhere. I tend to be highly conflict avoidant, so I suppose I get out as soon as possible if I feel the temperature rising to areas I dislike or I sense hostility (which TBH, I seem hypersensitive to). 

I have heard that Fi-dom is sorta like a barometer that constantly "checks the pressure" of the emotional atmosphere. I think there are plenty of battle-worthy and/or blood-thirsty IXFPs, but for me, at least, I tend to be overly sensitive to those things.

For the most part, I tend to focus less on "winning" the debate because there kind of isn't a point (then again, what is the point of anything? LOL, such an emo). I used to be a grade-A asshole argumentative jackass that would rip into, criticize and ad hominem pretty much anything that moved, but I found it really pointless. Better to learn from your enemy IMO than "win" an argument. I tend to focus on knowledge and facts and keep personal shit out of it (with exceptions). I would say I have low endurance (also, it's a time-sink so I've learned to focus less on getting caught up in these sorts of things). 

Jean Renoir (The Rules of the Game; 1939): *"The awful thing about life is this: Everyone has their reasons."*

^I try to see where my enemies are coming from, because it's possible we're really on the same page and it's a semantics issue. Everybody does have their reasons and I've often found that breaking through those barriers and dropping my own pride/biases is generally more beneficial (that said, if they are OBVIOUSLY wrong, then I have no problems bringing that up... I tend to focus on the facts and keep things impersonal in that regard). I dislike making snap judgments because I used to do that a lot more and I've had to eat my own shit plenty as a result. Not fun. Not worth it, IMO. Enemies and demons can be the greatest teachers of all, I believe, so I do not "exorcise" demons so much as _*negotiate*_ with them.

I do not have to like my demons, but I maintain a kinda sorta neutral-alliance with them, I suppose.

~~~~~~

i wonder if this is related to instinctual variant. My guess is the Sx instinct plays a role. I am pretty low in the Sx and Soc departments, so maybe there's something to that.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

I guess it can be pretty low, because I get anxious or some shit. Then at other times I realize it's simply futile, because the other person is too dense, or I get frustrated because I can't words (at least in a way that the other person understands). But, even if I give up on the argument in real life, I might continue arguing in my head as I slowly turn insane. In the end I'm not sure if there's a way for me to actually win, because I have a hard time ignoring it, and if I don't "come out on top," I get frustrated, but if I do I often end up feeling guilty.

So most of the time, I guess I prefer to observe conflict over being a part of it, but it can be tempting to poke at the shit with a stick, at least.


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## Glory (Sep 28, 2013)

very high until it drifts into counter-intuitive tautologies that lead nowhere for the matter at hand, solves nothing. At that point it's just... eff it, I have better things to do than listen to you, have your argument *shrug*


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## Aha (Mar 6, 2014)

I try not to get into debates on the internet. But it seems like I am not very good at that.

I prefer to look into persons eyes, articulate and deliver my point with my Fe. I am very good at it. Its just does not work here on the forums. I can debate in the internet as well, if it really something that interests me, but it takes sooooo much time.


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## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

I tend to be able to discuss things relatively detached more often than not, but when our little discussion starts getting heated, I go all the way. I'm stubborn like that. Hell, after a certain point, I don't even care anymore about whether I'm right or not, all I'll care about is making my opponent back off. Once they do, I'll be calm again as if nothing ever happened..

But this is in relative extreme cases only, you know, when there's actual conflict. I guess you could say my energy tends to match the energy of the discussion. I can't shut down or detach or anything like that once things start to heat up.

So my endurance is quite high, irl. On the internet, I tend to get bored too quickly because the responses aren't fast enough - it's more difficult to maintain momentum.


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## -Alpha- (Dec 30, 2013)

Aha said:


> I try not to get into debates on the internet. But it seems like I am not very good at that.
> 
> I prefer to look into persons eyes, articulate and deliver my point with my Fe. I am very good at it. Its just does not work here on the forums. I can debate in the internet as well, if it really something that interests me, but it takes sooooo much time.


I disagree on some level. Things like assertiveness, larger size, tone of voice and such play a role in a face to face debate. Social pressure can 'cause one to lose train of thought.

That said, if I were very large, I would use that to my advantage in the most appropriate way possible.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

I don't seek conflict for its own sake.
I don't avoid conflict for the sake of avoiding it.
I engage in conflict because I believe something and at that time it's worth it to me to express it.

In a debate, I do not run out of energy or lose momentum in an argument, ever. I do not stop until my point has been articulated clearly, no matter how long it takes. If it's a waste of time with this person, I might stop, but if it's someone who is listening and actually debating with me, the only thing that will pull me away before I'm done is an obligation I can't miss, or sleep, or things like this.. but I will then return to said debate and continue until I am done.
If I am in an actual fight or confrontation, there is not much need to drag it out. Animal-robot kicks in and cuts right where it hurts the most, quickly and decisively; gets right to the heart of the issue and exposes the truth. The other party cries. Every.single.time. Luckily this is very rare and Animal-robot comes out only when the other party's bullshit freezes Animal-heart. Some people know me for my whole life and never encounter Animal-robot. If you encounter Animal-robot you are probably on your way out of my life. Those who encounter Animal-robot and manage to fix the friendship after that, have probably done some major thinking and offered an honest apology with a genuine will to change. It has happened, but it is highly unlikely that the other person ever wants to face me again. Once the truth someone was hiding has been blatantly exposed, their shame is too great and they don't care to face me unless they have tremendous courage, willpower and a desire to look inward even where it hurts the most.


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## StaceofBass (Jul 1, 2012)

It really depends.

I can have very low endurance to endurance that is out of this world because I'm stubborn as shit. 

If it's a conflict over values, that's when I will be very hardheaded, stubborn, and aggressive. I will never back down unless you present a good argument for why I am wrong. Most people cannot, so things like this can end up very heated. 

With most other things, I generally feel that the argument just isn't worth the time and energy.


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## Arya (Oct 17, 2012)

My biggest enjoyment in debates is to be so calm that the other person feels weird for getting emotionally riled. It's hilarious when someone slams them self over and over against you only to realize they're not fighting anybody but them self. Or it's even more fun to help them argue their side and then show both arguments for them side by side. It deflates people fast. And it just goes to show how much emotion was fueling them rather than any logical process. Not that I'm immune to that.... just most of the time I really don't care. Or they'll go into the argument expecting to argue within the typical constructs, and I'll break out of that entirely and they won't have a word to say. So I'd say I probably have never ending endurance in most situations. Watching people react and deflate or run away is very amusing. I realized long ago that if you say something very calmly it'll bite people way worse than if you go after them aggressively, because they tend to see the aggression as unfair and will automatically dismiss, because the other person is just being "emotional" or unfair, even if their point is perfectly valid. If you just say something they can't fight you as the person. or they look really silly if they do.

I also use that technique when people try attacking me. There is nothing that will infuriate someone more than if you stay calm when they're trying to rile you up. And if you keep acting in a calm way automatic guilt will kick in for them and they won't know what to do. Typically when people attack each other, cognitive dissonance allows them to not feel so guilty because the other party will get riled and return meanness with meanness. Then they both go their way feeling as if the other person is just awful. If you stay calm though you get to watch the other person disintegrate into a guilty mess. And they'll never have any true reason as to why you're so awful. So the end result is really bad cognitive dissonance on their end, or they're forced to see the way they're acting.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@_Animal_

Your post compelled me to think of conflict with people important to us, in more emotional settings, which is a point @_kaleidoscope_ made in the OP as well.

If I am having a political debate or some theoretical or miscellaneous discussion, I can stick to my guns and things can get heated, even if they pretty much end in laughter. My closest friends are all the types to debate robustly and passionately and for a good while, without getting butthurt. 

Unless I've been disrespected by a loved one, I make it a point to be considerate and receptive in an argument especially if they are talking about their hurts. I am not the type of person who uses such vulnerability against them or gets all rawr like a tool. I, definitely, believe in objective, proactive and mature conflict resolution outside of the professional sphere as well lol. 


When disrespected, unless it's something really fuckin egregious in which case my response is swift and heavy handed, I let them know, without much brouhaha, that they're being an ass. People who know me are aware I am not easily offended, so that is enough for them to apologize and keep things on track. In discussions of a private or sensitive nature, outlasting the other person in an argument is not on my agenda. The very nature of such arguments brings out a more receptive side of me regardless of my emphatic manner of speech and my general directness. I am good at calming an agitated person down. My presence is often found soothing and grounded by people in distress etc. I can add fuel to fire (which I do with retards I am fucking with), but I am very good at doing the opposite, and choose to do so, with loved ones, those in extenuating circumstances and just people who have given me no reason to play them till they crack and worse.


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## Tater Tot (May 28, 2012)

My biggest problem is once I start arguing, I can't stop until I get my point across, no matter how exhausting it is. I don't really need the other party to agree, I just need to reach some level of communication, because it drives me nuts to have it unresolved. I'm starting to get a little better at knowing when to stop though.

...ugh. I hate arguing. :laughing: I'm starting to notice there may be a little resentment/entitlement behind my hatred of it. LOL it's like HOW DARE YOU CHALLENGE ME.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

@Cosmic Orgasm

I can actually think of different reactions with loved ones depending on the nature of the argument. 

a) If there is a personal argument going on, I am more vulnerable and worried about how the other person sees me, if their perception of me is different because of our argument. This applies to disagreements, misunderstandings, a problem we are having about our relationship or other people. 

b) When I am hurt, my first impulse is to *WITHDRAW *and lick my wounds, more than lashing out in response. I just become really distant and curl up in a fetal position haha, though if asked, I have this crazy tendency to try to make it sound less than it is. It's okay, I'll be fine, etc. I have no idea why I do that :frustrating:

c) If I feel disrespected/belittled/patronized, then I'm angry, and my anger is of the icy kind. I get extremely closed off, harsh, cold. I don't want anything to do with the person at that point.


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## StaceofBass (Jul 1, 2012)

Tater Tot said:


> My biggest problem is once I start arguing, I can't stop until I get my point across, no matter how exhausting it is. I don't really need the other party to agree, I just need to reach some level of communication, because it drives me nuts to have it unresolved. I'm starting to get a little better at knowing when to stop though.


I can be like that too, but then once I notice we're going in circles I get frustrated and say, "YOU'RE NOT LISTENING TO ME!!! :angry:"


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## Tater Tot (May 28, 2012)

StaceofBass said:


> I can be like that too, but then once I notice we're going in circles I get frustrated and say, "YOU'RE NOT LISTENING TO ME!!! :angry:"


Usually I just repeatedly open my mouth and try saying something but nothing comes out. :laughing:


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Te likes dem categories lol. I am glad you broke it down like that. Makes it easier for me to address and ponder. 



kaleidoscope said:


> @_Cosmic Orgasm_
> 
> I can actually think of different reactions with loved ones depending on the nature of the argument.
> 
> a) If there is a personal argument going on, I am more vulnerable and worried about how the other person sees me, if their perception of me is different because of our argument. This applies to disagreements, misunderstandings, a problem we are having about our relationship or other people.


In a personal argument that isn't too sensitive in nature, I tend to focus just on the conflict resolution part. I have the habit of "sticking to facts", expecting rationality etc. When people make remarks that strike me as too irrational or exaggerated, I get impatient and terse. If the argument is of a sensitive nature and the other person is very hurt, then I can sort of go a lot easier on them. If I am the one that's hurt, unless it's clear cut disrespect in which case I tell them off easil, I have the tendency to initially shut them down and not make it look like I've been affected. They get stonewalled, if it's a more complicated issue like they ignored me or were inattentive when they should've been the opposite. This one really rubs me wrong, because I have a nurturing attentive side -sp related apparently lol- and i rarely have huge emotional expectations of people, so if I see them doing even less than that, that makes me angry. Depending on who it is, I am likely to either downplay the pain or express open and direct anger. It's much easier for me to express anger in these situations where close friends are involved. With an SO, my first impulse is to give the impression of being unaffected and withholding vulnerability. This is a lot like withdrawing/ receding in pain, but I do it in a way that still conveys my displeasure. I've found that this "iciness" unsettles people more than the fire lol. If I literally tell a partner that I felt ignored or that I wasn't prioritized and get openly angry, it means the relationship has crossed a certain threshold of closeness. :3 



> b) When I am hurt, my first impulse is to *WITHDRAW *and lick my wounds, more than lashing out in response. I just become really distant and curl up in a fetal position haha, though if asked, I have this crazy tendency to try to make it sound less than it is. It's okay, I'll be fine, etc. I have no idea why I do that :frustrating:


That makes sense. I don't relate to the fetal position part etc. lol, but I definitely get distant, detached and cold with partners when deeply hurt, but a few times it has happened with very close friends if I were particularly upset. In general, my responses are more along the lines of what I described earlier on the thread. 

As for why you might do that: for me anyway, the motivation is not giving power away by letting someone know they got to me. Do you relate by chance?



> c) If I feel disrespected/belittled/patronized, then I'm angry, and my anger is of the icy kind. I get extremely closed off, harsh, cold. I don't want anything to do with the person at that point.


Mhmm yeah 
I tend to respond in kind in such situations. If it's a loved one in distress, I may let it go but it shouldn't be made into a habit.


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## 0+n*1 (Sep 20, 2013)

Most of the time I feel like my heart is racing and I struggle to control myself and not move drastically because it's immature. A lot of arguments are irresolvable and I'm tempted to say all, because that's how I feel about conflicts. It's useless, time consuming and hurting, which makes me second-guess it, since it's difficult to stop talking from a perspective of insecurity. I can see fault so easily inside of me that a lot of times, I end up feeling terrible and I feel a strong need to apologize and admit mistakes and receive punishment, if it's necessary, even when I say outwardly that I won't compromise; it's just my wounded self speaking. I cannot bear thinking that I'm too stupid to not see past my imperfections and that I am against self-improvement or that I'm not responsible of my waste. Sometimes I don't express how terrible I'm feeling because I don't want to be mushy or feel inferior; some people are experts on flipping the coin and reproaching me. It's like avoiding disappointment or shame by enhancing it. 

Other times I avoid conflicts and I bite my tongue because I see the futility of it or because I understand their points. I have low endurance in arguments because I end up behaving uncivilized (and I end up regretting it) or because it's easy to see flaws in my arguments that make me feel inadequate for the fight. Sometimes I keep on fighting, but I know I am no champion. Sometimes I get mad for no good reason. I don't want to lash out on others for my demons, but sometimes it's hard.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Te likes dem categories lol. I am glad you broke it down like that. Makes it easier for me to address and ponder.


I love me some lists :blushed:



> In a personal argument that isn't too sensitive in nature, I tend to focus just on the conflict resolution part. I have the habit of "sticking to facts", expecting rationality etc. When people make remarks that strike me as too irrational or exaggerated, I get impatient and terse. If the argument is of a sensitive nature and the other person is very hurt, then I can sort of go a lot easier on them. If I am the one that's hurt, unless it's clear cut disrespect in which case I tell them off easil, I have the tendency to initially shut them down and not make it look like I've been affected. They get stonewalled, if it's a more complicated issue like they ignored me or were inattentive when they should've been the opposite. This one really rubs me wrong, because I have a nurturing attentive side -sp related apparently lol- and i rarely have huge emotional expectations of people, so if I see them doing even less than that, that makes me angry. Depending on who it is, I am likely to either downplay the pain or express open and direct anger. It's much easier for me to express anger in these situations where close friends are involved.


Hmm, this is interesting. How patient would you say you are, if another person is hurt in a sensitive situation? Do you feel like you ever reach a point where you just get impatient, or expect them to get over it after a certain point?



> With an SO, my first impulse is to give the impression of being unaffected and withholding vulnerability. This is a lot like withdrawing/ receding in pain, but I do it in a way that still conveys my displeasure. I've found that this "iciness" unsettles people more than the fire lol. If I literally tell a partner that I felt ignored or that I wasn't prioritized and get openly angry, it means the relationship has crossed a certain threshold of closeness. :3


Ha! I relate, though a lot of this is more internal. For image reasons, I prefer to bottle up a lot of the insecurity and hurt, and express it in a way that doesn't show how deeply affected I am by the neglect. I really can't stand the thought of showing more than my partner does, I'm very sensitive to balance in a relationship like that. If I ever get too emotional, it makes me want to withdraw so much. 



> As for why you might do that: for me anyway, the motivation is not giving power away by letting someone know they got to me. Do you relate by chance?


Yes, that sounds about right, actually. I dislike showing my SO who sensitive I can be, and how much something affected me, especially if I know they wouldn't react the same way if it happened to them. Part of me is a bit ashamed by it, because I can be pretty damn sensitive, but like I said above, I'm also super attuned to balance, and I will not under any circumstance show more than I am shown.. if that makes sense. I cringe at the thought of being in a relationship where my partner is (seemingly) unaffected and I am breaking down. Just.. ugh. I can't stand the thought. Perhaps pride has something to do with it?


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## 0+n*1 (Sep 20, 2013)

I want to add that I haven't been in a lot of arguments in my life, because I usually feel I'm incompetent in them or if I add something, it isn't going to solve the issue or it isn't well-founded or strong and sometimes it't just a tantrum or a reflection of my internal struggles, like when someone says something I find hurtful and I realize immediately it's only because I'm insecure in that area and I'm feeling inferior in that area and that's why I'm reacting like that.

But the ones I got in, I want to end up as quickly as possible to protect my feelings. It's a battle because I don't want to back down and be a coward, but I also don't want to be stupid and immature if I feel so wrong inside.

Sometimes I try to brush them off and start acting ingratiating to achieve it. Yes, I'm guilty of that too. 

It's very hard to express my feelings and points of view for various reasons, most of them coming from insecurities.


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## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

if it's not a personal argument, i have "endurance"/am willing to continue. if it becomes personal... i just kind of feel it out, really. if i can see it going somewhere, i'll keep on--if not, then i usually just let it go, as it's pointless and i know what i'm capable of (i.e., "is it really worth it to me to make this person feel like shit/hurt them in general? do i honestly even fucking care at this point?"--usually, i don't). 

i know that i can escalate the hell out of a situation too, and that is also a choice, something that has to be weighed. there have been times when i just fully embrace my temper and let loose--but again, i know how i can be, and very little in the world really calls for all that. :tongue:

edit: not to mention that most internet arguments would be stifled in seconds in real life. most people i've come across and met don't actually want to bother with something that makes them uncomfortable--and a near equal amount have courage they'd otherwise lack, if they weren't behind a screen... it puts things into perspective, knowing what you're actually dealing with, lol.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

IRL, I enjoy discussions or debates but try to stay away from emotionally heated arguments. I don't enjoy fighting with my friends. On the internet - different story; I rarely get overly emotionally involved in those so . . . basically as long as it interests me. I can hold out as long as they can and get a kick over refusing to back down but if it becomes too much of an energy drain; then and only then would I back off; IOW, when it stops being fun and/or gets ugly.



Animal said:


> I don't seek conflict for its own sake.
> I don't avoid conflict for the sake of avoiding it.
> I engage in conflict because I believe something and at that time it's worth it to me to express it.
> 
> ...


If it's from someone I care about; I am NEVER afraid of the truth; I am far more afraid of the friendship/relationship ending without my never KNOWING the truth but if it's from some random idiot who's into playing sick mind games like my psycho-asshole neighbour (or any other spiritually and morally bereft wastes of oxygen) for example, then unless he pushes me too hard; I will keep to myself my contemptible assessment of him.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

kaleidoscope said:


> I love me some lists :blushed:


:kitteh:




> Hmm, this is interesting. How patient would you say you are, if another person is hurt in a sensitive situation? Do you feel like you ever reach a point where you just get impatient, or expect them to get over it after a certain point?


see, it depends on who this person is. i can have tremendous patience for a loved one. with most people, i don't deal with extended whining when i decide it's time for them to get on with their lives. i, especially, have no tolerance for people who play victim and don't see how they are part of the problem. this is the worst way to behave around me, because i will humiliate and mock the shit out of people over it. 

my loved ones tend not to be the types to do this, and i already care for them a great deal, so in sensitive situations, they will see a much more receptive, empathetic and kind side to me. i do expect them to respect it, respect me and my time. i will not have it taken for granted.



> Ha! I relate, though a lot of this is more internal. For image reasons, I prefer to bottle up a lot of the insecurity and hurt, and express it in a way that doesn't show how deeply affected I am by the neglect. I really can't stand the thought of showing more than my partner does, I'm very sensitive to balance in a relationship like that. If I ever get too emotional, it makes me want to withdraw so much.


in my case, i am sure the appearance of being unaffected also plays a role, but it's more about keeping the upper hand in the situation. you can't accomplish that if the image doesn't match the aim. 

that's a very interesting point about showing more. with me, this shows up in terms of passion (general not sexual alone). i am very comfortable being passionate and opinionated, and ideally, i'd have a partner who'd display this in spades. i am perfectly fine with people who aren't as emphatic as i can be, but i expect them to accept how i am and enjoy it. now, if they are a total fuckin stick in the mud who reciprocates very little passion and is way too unexpressive, i just leave them. i can't imagine having to prune myself this way, particularly something like my impassioned nature which is as fundamental to me as existence itself. 

i do understand though that if you have shame associated with the unequal sharing of emotions, that it would cause you to withdraw. that sounds painful. :/




> Yes, that sounds about right, actually. I dislike showing my SO who sensitive I can be, and how much something affected me, especially if I know they wouldn't react the same way if it happened to them.


for me, it's more like not showing i've been affected (aside from the stuff about detachment, power in keeping the upper hand as described earlier) if they would not respond in a way that makes me feel further annoyed or disconnected from them. when i notice this becoming a pattern, i know it's not the right pairing for me. here's where my craving of vulnerability as though it were a drug, as something for which i have an insatiate hunger comes in. a person who can't quench this and who doesn't crave it with the same intensity is just not a suitable partner to me. 

it's a great sign of closeness and intimacy in my relationships when i can show sensitivity, vulnerability, hurt and need around a partner. recently, i had some harrowing experiences with OCD, PTSD and clinical depression all converging into a clusterfuck worsening at the same time. a cousin who meant more to me than any sibling could also passed away last year besides the end of a long term relationship, as you know. so, it has been a strange time. the day i had toughest experiences with OCD etc. recently, i was able to turn to my best friend who is also the woman i love deeply, and just lay myself bare and let myself fall to pieces in her warmth, allowing her to comfort me. i was also able to talk to animal later, and that was a gift i don't take lightly. the only other person who i've allowed to see this up close and share vulnerability with this intimately and painfully has been ex, and you know how powerful our connection was. 

in a somewhat different sense, i think i can sort of empathize with you there.




> Part of me is a bit ashamed by it, because I can be pretty damn sensitive, but like I said above, I'm also super attuned to balance, and I will not under any circumstance show more than I am shown.. if that makes sense.


mmhm 



> I cringe at the thought of being in a relationship where my partner is (seemingly) unaffected and I am breaking down. Just.. ugh. I can't stand the thought. Perhaps pride has something to do with it?


pride..yes. same here. it definitely plays a role. i am plenty detached myself, but with a SO, the whole unaffected apathetic deal doesn't work. i want to impact them and be impacted deep inside, even if i present with a very stoic exterior. it's why i do well with NF types as partners because it seems like they seem more open to being vulnerable and more open to accepting and relishing the vulnerability of a partner. i have realized, over the years of having dated men of various types (lol typology and otherwise) and backgrounds, that, besides stuff like intelligence etc., men who are both powerful and gentle, vulnerable and assertive, and just as desirous of emotional closeness and as willing to never allow things to turn monotonous, work extremely well for me.  

i was talking to @_Doll_, @_Animal_ and @_Swordsman of Mana_ about this earlier. that was more about artistic sublimation and expression (of pain, vulnerability and more) and wanting to embody pain physically in a sexual context (sm etc.), but vulnerability is definitely an emotional desire for me far more than a physical one. 

do you think there is a type of relationship or partner that works better for you? feel free to explain in typological terms if you want.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

kaleidoscope said:


> @Cosmic Orgasm
> I can actually think of different reactions with loved ones depending on the nature of the argument.
> a) If there is a personal argument going on, I am more vulnerable and worried about how the other person sees me, if their perception of me is different because of our argument. This applies to disagreements, misunderstandings, a problem we are having about our relationship or other people.


I couldn't care less about this :tongue:



> b) When I am hurt, my first impulse is to *WITHDRAW *and lick my wounds, more than lashing out in response. I just become really distant and curl up in a fetal position haha, though if asked, I have this crazy tendency to try to make it sound less than it is. It's okay, I'll be fine, etc.


now THIS I relate to a lot 



> I have no idea why I do that :frustrating:


1) because being emotionally exposed when you're at your most vulnerable can be REALLY embarrassing (and I don't embarrass easily).
2) it's an attempt to maintain control. I mean, do you _want_ to throw a tantrum or flail around when you're emotionally distraught? have you ever been scared and totally freaked out? now think of a similar situation where you stayed calm and didn't let it overtake you. which situation felt worse?
3) you're an Fi user. we typically like to process feelings first then talk about them later. in the moment, it's like "aaaand I need to go deal with this in a dark cave. peace out!"


> c) If I feel disrespected/belittled/patronized, then I'm angry, and my anger is of the icy kind. I get extremely closed off, harsh, cold. I don't want anything to do with the person at that point.


I related to this too. I basically turn into Cersei Lannister when patronized. it's a combination of
- "how dare you speak to me in that condescending tone!"
- 'I don't want to give them satisfaction of thinking I give a shit
- "oh really? so _I'm_ the immature one when you're over hear whining/trying to make a scene while I keep my cool?....actions speak louder than words darling"
- 'I can't allow myself to lose my temper and react to you...such unbecoming behavior'


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## The Chameleon (May 23, 2014)

I love to debate and argue, but if my opponent keeps driving their point into my intestines and I'm not interested enough, or they're wrong but they won't listen to reason, I'm just like "fuck it you win I don't care anymore". 
If the other person isn't going to be a good opponent, I don't bother with serious debates.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

If it's something I care passionately about I can go at it for hours. I think I'm a bit too self-critical at times though, which can make me more hesitant. I also requite space in order to introspect and ensure I'm not just flying off the handle and projecting everywhere. 

Endurance in arguments is definitely a skill I'd like to develop more.


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## Mutant Hive Queen (Oct 29, 2013)

The level of endurance I have in a debate is...insanely variable. It depends mostly on my confidence in victory. If I begin to think I don't have a good response, I cease debating until I do. (Or, till I get an idea good enough to field, at any rate).


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

Ugh, I hate arguing. Emotions invariably get involved, people get too convinced they're right (on both sides), and I end up having to repeat myself several times. Being a person who has a hard time converting thoughts into words to begin with, it gets even worse when I get upset. Anger takes a lot of energy out of me for some reason; I find it exhausting. And loud voices (which are often correlated to being upset/angry) make me very anxious on an innate level, so there's that.

I grew up with people who had different ways of dealing with conflict than I deal with it, so it's always been uncomfortable for me. They wanted to deal with it _right now_ (or not at all), whereas I prefer to take a minute to think about it and talk without bringing too many emotions into it. It's only been relatively recently that I've really had experience with the way I prefer, and it's _so much easier_. Sure, waiting and letting things fester is a bad idea, but I don't really understand why some want to face it head-on with no "preparation." Emotions (except empathy, obv) seem to only make things worse in arguments, yet others love doing it that way and I just don't get it.

This is one reason why I strongly considered core 1w9 :tongue:

Anyway, I'd say I have an endurance level of like 5-10 minutes and then I'm done with it. Either my patience has been used up or my energy levels have been depleted, but either way I don't really last that long. There's a couple times I've gone longer, but they're not very common.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> - 'I don't want to give them satisfaction of thinking I give a shit


Yeah, that awkward moment where I really want to convince the other person they're stupid and wrong, but at the same time I feel ridiculous for being so invested. =P Then there's usually a part of me that worries that _I'm _the one that's in the wrong, but I'm not sure if that's a problem you usually have.


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