# 369



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Does anyone else identify as this tritype? What is it like to be you?


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## Quang (Sep 4, 2014)

I swear this is one of the most frustrating types to identify. All types have their nuances, however this type has minimal.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Quang said:


> I swear this is one of the most frustrating types to identify. All types have their nuances, however this type has minimal.


Why so?


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

Quang said:


> I swear this is one of the most frustrating types to identify. All types have their nuances, however this type has minimal.


Same question as Entropic. 

Though yes, they are hard to identify; especially to self-identify.

(936 here. I could try to answer questions if you want...)


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## Quang (Sep 4, 2014)

Entropic said:


> Why so?


Because all 3 types self-identify with the situation or environment they are in i.e. "It depends on the situation","it depends who I am with", or "it depends on how I feel". I've gotten the same feedback from 469, 146s. The influence of 6 and the SO-instinct makes it depend more on the situation.

Externally, Sixes have the most diverse set of micro gestures and I find it difficult to distinguish them from other enneagram types ; I observed that the biggest clue is their frenetic reactiveness to the unexpected and defensive body language (closed arms, creating a barrier)... Sixes gaze have a more anxious 'watchfulness', whereas 5's gaze is more 'cool' and 'penetrating'.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> Same question as Entropic.
> 
> Though yes, they are hard to identify; especially to self-identify.
> 
> (936 here. I could try to answer questions if you want...)


How come you type this type? How do you experience it to be like? Does the 3 for example make you frustrated over how the type is usually described as the most common, most typical without appearing particularly outstanding etc., or are you fine with that being a 9 core?


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## 0+n*1 (Sep 20, 2013)

I have considered it. I'm in the 369-146 area (369,469,136,146). This tritype is sold as lacking any nuance that I figure some 369s self-type as one of their neighbors. Even if it sounds wrong, I have the impression that relating types take the flavor of their fixes or wings and that can misguide them into self-typing as those types. If you ask me for reasons, I cannot give you a good one.


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## Quang (Sep 4, 2014)

0+n*1 said:


> I have considered it. I'm in the 369-146 area (369,469,136,146). This tritype is sold as lacking any nuance that I figure some 369s self-type as one of their neighbors. Even if it sounds wrong, I have the impression that relating types take the flavor of their fixes or wings and that can misguide them into self-typing as those types. If you ask me for reasons, I cannot give you a good one.


What do you like most about yourself?
What do you dislike most about yourself?
Are there any skills you felt you were naturally adept at?


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## 0+n*1 (Sep 20, 2013)

I'll try to answer your questions. I was answering it when you posted these questions in the forum, but I didn't finish in the end.



Quang said:


> What do you like most about yourself? Are there any skills you felt you were naturally adept at?


I don't like a lot about me. I guess what I like the most is my intelligence, I feel like I can come up with something when I'm faced with a new problem. I am the type of person that can come up with patches to solve things temporarily to buy time and then fully develop a solution that will serve for future possible scenarios. I guess the word I am looking for is creative or ingenious. There's something in the way, I look a way around it. I don't know the procedure, I just reason it out. I process a lot in the moment, so in a way I always face problems that seem new. I like that. 

I also think I am accepting of a lot of things and I can understand your reasons if you talk about them because I am open-minded. I am not easily shocked or at least I try not to be. I am willing to experience new things and I crave them. Although I still reserve a lot when it comes to actually experiencing new things, conceptually I think experiencing new things is one of the best things you can do with your time. There's in general a desire to explore, some kind of curiosity. I'm also a little quirky and funny and offbeat, so that keeps my life a little interesting. I like me when I'm in a good mood, I can be witty and loud/expressive/dramatic, I spice things up. I am also a little intense, it has its drawbacks but also its charm. My intensity is not always present though and I usually doubt it, but I do because I value it. 

I like that I try to maintain some independence from the world. This is also a sensitive area because I also doubt it because I value it immensely. I try to deal with my shit and not make others responsible for it. I try to be the most self-sufficient I can, to rely on me absolutely. I try. I want to say that I'm forging my path that leads to only a destination, me. I'm leaving the nest. I like it when I can draw the line between others and me and I feel the distinction.

That's what I can think of at the moment. I feel like if I give it a second thought, I will feel I shouldn't say I like those things that I said I identify with because I'm not enough of them to own them and talk about how much I like them. My ideal being is all those things though. 



> What do you dislike most about yourself?


Doubt, I overthink, I consider and reconsider ad infinitum. Frame and reframe. I think there's always something I'm missing, some important piece I am hiding from myself. Although it makes me feel like I'm more "intellectual" when I do it, it's really just a mind that's weak and jumpy. 

I also dislike that I'm sometimes too demanding of attention. I feel needy and desperate. I guess I like to be able to appear cool and unaffected or that I got my shit together. I am more transparent than I want to be. 

I am not even an inch of the person I want to be. And the worse part is that I don't develop my potential. I don't do what I should to improve. I am lazy. I am weak. Sometimes I let me feel proud that at least I know things must change and how they must, that I'm a work in progress, but ultimately I'm still the same shitty person I am. Knowing makes no difference. It must soak through. I value action and my life lacks action. There's a lot of things I haven't experienced. I repeat myself. I am not independent enough. I let me feel contented. I am in my comfort zone. I am a coward.

Sometimes I feel empty and undefined and without the will to shape me into some form of any kind. I give up easily and succumb to a life without purpose or meaning. That I'm just passing by and I run in automatic. I feel very ordinary.

I don't pursue my passions. I don't know my passions. I don't know me. I want to excuse me saying that I have spent a lot of time thinking about it and going deep but not seeing results makes me think I'm maybe not going as deep as I could be. That maybe I'm not willing to reach the botton, that I don't have the courage. I fear that I'm secretly denying me the truth, I can't shake off the feeling that I'm lying in some way, that I'm hiding. 

Sometimes I vomit my shit in front of others instead of dealing with it on my own. I am not standing only in my two feet and until that day isn't today I cannot let me rest. The problem is that I still rest and I am not standing straight up.

That was messier. That's what I could come up with. I have the nagging feeling I'm missing something important or that I said things that aren't truly disntinctive of me, that I just went along with the feeling of a moment, that I missed the big picture.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

Entropic said:


> How come you type this type?


It's the result of a lot of obsessive self-analysis and mistyping. I admit I tried to go by "What type from each center fits me best?" In the case of my head fix, I typed as a core Six for a while. Then after more searching I had to admit I'm a core Nine - I'm lazy, not good at depth unless prompted, terrible at acting on ideas, conflict-avoidant as they come. Being 936...it explains why I follow norms and assimilate into new environments so effortlessly, and worry so much about matters involving personal competence, identity, and place in the world. 



> How do you experience it to be like? Does the 3 for example make you frustrated over how the type is usually described as the most common, most typical without appearing particularly outstanding etc., or are you fine with that being a 9 core?


Funny you mention that. Because yes, it does bother me, a lot. I insisted I was a 4-fixer for ages before toying with the (ridiculous) idea of it being my core, and realizing it's probably not even a fix. One of the first ugly ennea-truths I discovered about myself way back when I first tried to type myself (as a Five, no less. I thought I was an INTP in MBTI, and most INTPs are Fives...) was just how imagey I am. How badly I want to impress, to achieve; that my reasons for learning things are less "love of learning" than "being in the know", not looking ignorant. I worry about having the right opinions, the right outlooks....heck, even with big existential issues I'm less bothered by the issue itself and more worried that I'm "thinking about it wrong" or coming to the wrong conclusions. Yes, I'm ashamed of all of this. 

I don't trust myself, basically. And it doesn't help that I've spent how many years trying to shove myself into a mold that isn't actually me, yet that I desperately identified with and saw as the only thing worth being...even as I had constant worry that I wasn't "enough". Self-forgetting, essentially. My God, I had _so much rage_ upon realizing what/who I actually am...I still do, though it's fading. It feels like I have to rebuild. Though something I noticed thanks to obsessive self-analysis is that all my imagey shame has an undercurrent of anger, it really does. A frustration, a feeling that it's not fair. I made a rant about this in some other thread a while back - that being a Nine to me means inherently being nothing, being dead in every way but physically, being boring as hell. Of course that pisses me off; if you felt like everyone else has some core of value and selfhood and you didn't, you'd be angry too! I never had anything against the type until I found out it was mine. But I digress...

Yeah, I worry about stuff. I compare myself constantly. My loci of confidence and self-esteem are almost totally external, and honestly, people who self-validate are aliens to me. I don't trust my own judgment or feelings much of the time, unless the matter is deeply personal or totally inconsequential. I'm not exactly healthy atm, I guess. But yes, being the "everyman tritype" annoys me. A lot. That kind of frustration is why I typed as a 4-fixer, wanting to be better, be special somehow. Who gives a crap about average people who are just like everyone else? If I'm not outstanding...I could be destroyed (yes it sounds dramatic...but it's the best way I can articulate it since I'm not sure what "destruction" actually entails. I just know it would be bad). Though, I'm starting to realize how much behavior that I linked to my heart fix might actually be coming from a fix and connection at Six - uncertainty about my abilities (including thoughts that I need some impossible level of competence to be anything), a lifetime of feeling like I don't fit in even when I do...that's probably where it was all coming from.

That's all I can think of right now, though there's probably more. This was a bit stream-of-consciousness anyway.


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## 0+n*1 (Sep 20, 2013)

Get out of my head. Right now. I relate to a lot of what you said. I wish it came out of my mind. I just wanted to say that. You were taking about you but at some point I felt you were talking about me. I don't want to pretend I understand you though. It's insulting. I would find it insulting.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> It's the result of a lot of obsessive self-analysis and mistyping. I admit I tried to go by "What type from each center fits me best?" In the case of my head fix, I typed as a core Six for a while. Then after more searching I had to admit I'm a core Nine - I'm lazy, not good at depth unless prompted, terrible at acting on ideas, conflict-avoidant as they come. Being 936...it explains why I follow norms and assimilate into new environments so effortlessly, and worry so much about matters involving personal competence, identity, and place in the world.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I appreciate your honesty about the subject. At the same time, even if it's supposed to be the "everyman" tritype, yet you see almost no one typing this way. I am very sure it's not just because people don't identify with it, but I do genuinely think it's quite uncommon and most importantly, I do not think that people of this tritype are in any way whatsoever "everyman", but rather, their error in thinking is that they are. Enneagram isn't supposed to prescribe you; it does not suggest that being 369 makes you an everyman person, but rather, it is where our attention goes and how it makes erroneous assumptions about who we are. Hence the blind spot. I do think the Fauvres are a lot of quack in many ways, but I also do think they offer some real insight when it comes to the personality of each tritype:



> *Life Purpose*
> Your life mission is to see what is needed and to adapt to your circumstances to achieve your goals. A true mediator, you are happiest when you have clear guidelines and expectations to be helpful, successful and admired for your efforts.
> 
> *Blind Spot*
> ...


From my own perspective, I think people have the capability to accomplish anything they want to be as long as they have the will and desire towards it and I think especially for 369 based on what they are trying to suggest here, is that when we are so focused on adapting ourselves to the needs' and expectations of other people, they don't see us for who we really are and what value we do bring to the table. Essentially, they are suggesting that to be seen and being valued means being authentic. Not in the 4 sense because that's never true authenticity, but in the genuine sense of knowing yourself and being yourself and making your boundaries clear. 

For example, what's your reaction to reading the responses in here thus far and the people who have responded who identify to be of this tritype? Do you think this is a true reflection of you and your nature? If these questions are too private or sensitive, I understand.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

Entropic said:


> I appreciate your honesty about the subject. At the same time, even if it's supposed to be the "everyman" tritype, yet you see almost no one typing this way. I am very sure it's not just because people don't identify with it, but I do genuinely think it's quite uncommon and most importantly, I do not think that people of this tritype are in any way whatsoever "everyman", but rather, their error in thinking is that they are. Enneagram isn't supposed to prescribe you; it does not suggest that being 369 makes you an everyman person, but rather, it is where our attention goes and how it makes erroneous assumptions about who we are. Hence the blind spot. I do think the Fauvres are a lot of quack in many ways, but I also do think they offer some real insight when it comes to the personality of each tritype


It's supposedly the most common tritype, and the "easiest" in terms of inner conflict. It's supposed to be a highly conformist type who struggles with individuality....which is truer of me than I like to admit. I mentioned I doubt myself and my motivations, and that I blend in rather easily; I'm not a questioner unless prompted (another thing I'm not proud of). 

It's also, supposedly, the three most common types, the three most "normal" types in modern society. Hence why this would seem like the everyman type. That, and this is three types that alter themselves to the situation, as I do. Hence, the real self is largely hidden, maybe even from the individual.




> From my own perspective, I think people have the capability to accomplish anything they want to be as long as they have the will and desire towards it and I think especially for 369 based on what they are trying to suggest here, is that when we are so focused on adapting ourselves to the needs' and expectations of other people, they don't see us for who we really are and what value we do bring to the table. Essentially, they are suggesting that to be seen and being valued means being authentic. Not in the 4 sense because that's never true authenticity, but in the genuine sense of knowing yourself and being yourself and making your boundaries clear.
> 
> For example, what's your reaction to reading the responses in here thus far and the people who have responded who identify to be of this tritype? Do you think this is a true reflection of you and your nature? If these questions are too private or sensitive, I understand.



For a moment about authenticity and value: I won't ramble my own inner insanity regarding this and myself. But like I said above, it's not just others who don't see the 963 (or whatever order) for what they really are. The person themselves could have internalized a mistaken self.

As to the questions....the only person who's really replied as a 639 (whatever) is @0+n*1. And we seem rather on the same wavelength in terms of relation to this tritype. I'm not sure what you're asking about this type(?) reflecting me and my nature. I will be honest about one thing: I have a hard time relating to the notion of losing one's individuality in a desperate attempt to remain connected. I think it's just because I don't have much of a social life. I'm used to feeling like I don't belong for whatever reason and I've never consciously tried to "fit in"; in some ways I'm shamelessly different....

But then I think about how separate I keep myself, how anxious I am about rejection or disapproval....the way my mind shuts off when another person talks OT me because I become totally focused on them. How difficult it is for me to talk about myself because...I don't know...I think there's something wrong with me? Usually I don't so much lie or try to fit as I just remain separate, even if it's to my detriment. 

And I have no boundaries on the internet. IRL is a different story. Seriously, you can ask me anything. :3


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## Dustanddawnzone (Jul 13, 2014)

This forum tastes like marshmallow.


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## Vive (Nov 11, 2013)

Entropic said:


> Does anyone else identify as this tritype? What is it like to be you?


Hello there, I currently identify as an 369.

_What's it like to be me? _

I think I will start with a little blast from the past, or well not so long ago because I'm pretty young. What I can remember from childhood is that I mostly was able to enjoy myself, I was good at entertaining myself, I didn't like going to unfamiliar places, I struggled and was annoying until I actually got there, I was afraid of about every animal there was, I couldn't stand the sound of the rain, and bla bla bla, I was afraid of many things, that's the short version. It wasn't all fear, but that's most of what I can remember.

Apart from the fear, I wasn't that good at communicating with peers, well in the sense that they often had no clue what I was saying, and on the on the other hand they misunderstood what I meant. So with all that fear, and the communication issues, I obviously felt isolated, and I felt the desire to fit in. I started adapting, and it took a while but a certain point I understood how my peers communicated with each other, though the bullying and most of the misunderstanding didn't stop until I was much older. I also strangely remember copying the handwriting of a classmate because I thought my own sucked, tearing up my own comics that I made because I saw my classmates making better ones, and thought badly of my own comics I made as a kid. I remember not being able to really get to the audience while publicly speaking, so I copied my friend's mannerism while he was presenting because the whole class seemed to be interested and hooked when he was presenting something. Thinking about it it's pretty interesting, because even though I do 'my own' thing these days, I still see remnants of that "copycat" behavior.

Looking back I overcame so many fears and obstacles and I think I should be proud and I partially am, but on the other hand I'm hypercritical of myself which is something I try to avoid being, but I naturally hold myself to a standard that's a bit too extreme for me. I also stupidly compare myself with those around me, it's a common thing, and it brings me down when I do that. Though I do have a certain amount of self-validation, the external-validation often overshadows it either negatively (mostly) or positively.

I find that it's incredibly important to be open-minded, and to doubt whatever you're doing, though I think I often have the metaphorical fear of going into the cold pool spending ages dipping my toe in the water expecting the water to somehow be less cold, while if I would actually jump in it would be very cold but eventually I would be fine, and feel far better about myself and learn more then when I just stand there waiting and doubting. Currently I'm pretty positive about things, though I can get into a very worried state because I feel socially isolated, and disconnected from others, and because I don't go out all that much, and do things. 

At the same time I feel I'm complaining too much and think that I should do more, but then I think that at the same time, balance between everything is key, though I find it hard to maintain such a balance, between telling others about how I feel and letting them help, and trying to do something about it myself. Mostly I just go to one extreme, and it's always the latter. Though I've learned to be more accepting of help.

The funny thing is this type is called the chameleon, while anyone around that even slightly knows me will tell me when I make a comment that I'm different, strange, and that I'm simply me and therefore I'm making this certain comment. - I don't enjoy it when they say that, at the same time it's nice to know you make a certain lasting impression, and I do get interested as to why they would say such things.

My behavior may of course be the result of something else than tritype but this is just what it's like to be me in a nutshell.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> It's supposedly the most common tritype,


Supposedly, yet you hardly see anyone identifying as such, here. 



> and the "easiest" in terms of inner conflict.


Au contraire, my impression is that this seems to be one of the most inner conflicted types, because of how each type oscillates and contradicts itself. 



> It's supposed to be a highly conformist type who struggles with individuality....


I don't think the tritype struggles with conformity either, but I think it struggles with thinking that they conform too much or are too bland. 



> which is truer of me than I like to admit. I mentioned I doubt myself and my motivations, and that I blend in rather easily; I'm not a questioner unless prompted (another thing I'm not proud of).
> 
> It's also, supposedly, the three most common types, the three most "normal" types in modern society.


What is normal? 



> Hence why this would seem like the everyman type. That, and this is three types that alter themselves to the situation, as I do. Hence, the real self is largely hidden, maybe even from the individual.


I think of it as the type that perhaps represents the human condition the best, and in such a way it's "everyman", because every other type would at some level be based off this type, but that's a different story. I think the problem with this type is that it has a tendency to think of itself as being too bland and boring on the one hand, but fearing to assert itself on the other hand, and doubting its own capabilities on the third hand, which ends up with a lot of inner conflict and counter-productivity. 



> For a moment about authenticity and value: I won't ramble my own inner insanity regarding this and myself. But like I said above, it's not just others who don't see the 963 (or whatever order) for what they really are. *The person themselves could have internalized a mistaken self.*


This is honestly mostly my impression, and a very negative self-image, at that. Which is to say, other types have negative self images too, but I don't see other types being nearly as internally conflicted about it as I do this particular tritype. 



> As to the questions....the only person who's really replied as a 639 (whatever) is @0+n*1. And we seem rather on the same wavelength in terms of relation to this tritype. I'm not sure what you're asking about this type(?) reflecting me and my nature. I will be honest about one thing: I have a hard time relating to the notion of losing one's individuality in a desperate attempt to remain connected. I think it's just because I don't have much of a social life. I'm used to feeling like I don't belong for whatever reason and I've never consciously tried to "fit in"; in some ways I'm shamelessly different....
> 
> But then I think about how separate I keep myself, how anxious I am about rejection or disapproval....the way my mind shuts off when another person talks OT me because I become totally focused on them. How difficult it is for me to talk about myself because...I don't know...I think there's something wrong with me? Usually I don't so much lie or try to fit as I just remain separate, even if it's to my detriment.
> 
> And I have no boundaries on the internet. IRL is a different story. Seriously, you can ask me anything. :3


Well, for example, do you think being this tritype reflects negatively on you, seeing how it's described as being the most common and all, or do you think that being grouped with other people who are of this tritype that you perceive negatively means your value is negative, too?


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> It's supposedly the most common tritype, and the "easiest" in terms of inner conflict.


I wonder. I mean, you don't seem lacking in inner conflict here, at least. Of course, it's kind of meta, feeling conflicted over your apparent lack of inner conflict. 

I think the idea is that it's supposed to be more balanced than some tritypes, because you get a mix of ego, superego and id (compared to something like 378, which is all id). Also the adaptable aspect... which can be useful (compared to being too stuck in yourself, etc), but also come with conflicts of its own. Like the "real self being largely hidden" sounds like a conflict to me.

(Although with that said, I don't think they're the only types that deceives themselves either. Even 4s can be guilty of that. Each type kinda works as a filter that affects how you see yourself as well as the world around you. Seeing yourself as common or too boring is part of 9, I believe.)

Also not sure how common it is. Even if the attachment types on their own are common, I don't know that the tritype is. 

(I've also considered this tritype before, but I don't think.)



Dustanddawnzone said:


> This forum tastes like marshmallow.


Wondering if there's a deeper meaning behind this post, or if it's just random nonsense.


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## 0+n*1 (Sep 20, 2013)

I cannot say I am a 369, mostly because I don't understand, me and the type. And I don't want to say something wrong and then change my mind like I usually do. But I definitely think it's an option. 6 already has a connection to 3 and 9 and I can feel it. I identify with frustration and attachment almost equally and strongly that I must fall in the area where they collide. But you say things I can relate to (and they have become problems when it comes to having a sense of knowing who I am, which is very important for a lot of other things).



Entropic said:


> Au contraire, my impression is that this seems to be one of the most inner conflicted types, because of how each type oscillates and contradicts itself.


I am very aware of contradictions in general and of mine in specific. I am very aware of everything that makes me me. And I know I can surprise people sometimes with they way I respond to events. Not to say that there's no pattern. But I usually throw my self-concepts to the trash and the way you perceive yourself affects your behavior. This doesn't make me feel like I'm not being me all the time, that it doesn't come from within. It's comforting to believe it is not. But I often feel blank and undefined. Sometimes it makes me feel purer, but it usually makes me grieve and fear I will never find the answer, that I will never feel comfortable in my own skin, that I will be as lost as I was in the beginning. I get lost in these contradictions. I guess the problem arises not because other people don't have contradictions or are not aware of them. It's human. But because 369 is triple attachment and I think attachment looks for something definite. Bad apples spoiling the whole bunch. The ***** in the armor. According to the descriptions of the tritypes, 469 is the type that doubts and seeks identity though.



> I do not think that people of this tritype are in any way whatsoever "everyman", but rather, their error in thinking is that they are.





> I don't think the tritype struggles with conformity either, but I think it struggles with thinking that they conform too much or are too bland.





> I think of it as the type that perhaps represents the human condition the best, and in such a way it's "everyman", because every other type would at some level be based off this type, but that's a different story. I think the problem with this type is that it has a tendency to think of itself as being too bland and boring on the one hand, but fearing to assert itself on the other hand, and doubting its own capabilities on the third hand, which ends up with a lot of inner conflict and counter-productivity.


I can relate to these statements. I usually feel very human. I fail to make distinctions, no matter how better they make me feel. I make a whole spectacle out if it. I have talked about this, but the reason why I chose my username has a lot to do with that. A red ant and 0+n*1 is a wordplay. It reads as Ant Oni and that's my name (Antonio). An oni is a demon-like creature of japanese folklore, usually red in color. But there's something deeper. Any number contains invisible 0s and 1s. If you add or substract 0, you get the same number. If you multiply or divide by 1, you get the same number. But n remains unknown, variable. It could be anything. I feel like sometimes I'm more aware of the 0s and 1s. Of what makes us human. But as you said, I'm just caught in the false belief that I do. No surprise I cannot tell me apart, no matter how much I desire it. 

When I describe I usually mention I am human, or that I am changing, multifaceted, complex without not forgetting to mention that's just human. Why I make it distinctive? I usually say it's because I'm distinctively aware of it. Others are oblivious. I see the blurred lines. NingenExp, a previous username, comes from japanese for Human (Ningen) and Exp from experience. My signature also talks a bit about this. My image in the forum reveals this as one of the main themes in my life. In my life I have felt in the middle in many situations. In the middle of the spectrum. With everything equidistantly away from me. Is this 369? I don't know. I only know I can relate to it.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

Entropic said:


> Au contraire, my impression is that this seems to be one of the most inner conflicted types, because of how each type oscillates and contradicts itself.


Now that i think about it, the notion of it being unconflicted migth come from how each type connects to the other. Inner triangle and all.



> What is normal?


Hell if I know. It's one of those things no one can really describe and everyone's interpretation of it is a little different. Yet almost everyone can identify *ab*normal just fine....




> I think of it as the type that perhaps represents the human condition the best, and in such a way it's "everyman", because every other type would at some level be based off this type, but that's a different story. I think the problem with this type is that it has *a tendency to think of itself as being too bland and boring on the one hand, but fearing to assert itself on the other hand, and doubting its own capabilities on the third hand, which ends up with a lot of inner conflict and counter-productivity.*


I can see that.




> Well, for example, do you think being this tritype reflects negatively on you, seeing how it's described as being the most common and all, or do you think that being grouped with other people who are of this tritype that you perceive negatively means your value is negative, too?


Honestly, yes, I have thought of it as reflecting badly on me. Because if it's true that this type is so common, normal, unconflicted, and should have the easiest time overcoming its issues, why do I feel so messed up much of the time? Are my so-called conflicted just minor and not a big deal (well, I can blow them off like that even without the Enneagram...). Kinda like how I took finding my real MBTI type as a sign I'm not actually all that smart.

Though I'm just self-aware enough to know that personality has just been a conduit for this kind of thinking. If it didn't get channeled through personality theory, it would come out via something else. 

I keep thinking I need to "earn" a good self-image or stable self-esteem. Need to accomplish something or transform myself somehow so I can let up on myself or at least stop needing to compare so much. :/


Oh, and I wanted to reply to @0+n*1 here: I can kind of relate to the whole feeling human thing, but just barely. I relate to it in the sense that I find there to be something incredibly pretentious (in a bad way) about people who feel out of place saying they feel like aliens or like they're on the wrong planet. Sure, I feel out of place. But there's nothing alien about me. More like - in my more troubled moments - a human who came out wrong, somehow.

I doubt my complexity, and that troubles me. At best I feel like I pretend at it. Especially after finding my real type in several systems. What represents me is something awfully dull and typical. And like I said, who wants anything to do with someone like that.

I wouldn't say I'm necessarily more aware of the "0 and 1s", but that I desperately want to find my _n_. That's what I'm more aware of, personally. I remember thinking of this in a rather dramatic way after it was finally solidified that I'm a Nine: perhaps you could consider the n, that core of uniqueness and difference and lovable value as...the soul, in a way. And I fear that I lack one, and may need to build it. But is it worth expending so much effort on creating what may end up an inferior product anyway?

Eh, my mood's been down lately. Sorry for the dramatics. 

I'm sorry for being oblivious too.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

@_0+n*1_ @_ScientiaOmnisEst_ 

I want to chime in about this "human" thing too. I feel so impossibly and inexplicably connected to the human experience and ironically, that's part of why I feel so isolated and lonely. I feel like being so connected and aware of how I (and others) function in relation to the world is abnormal. Everyone I see has a blind spot. They have clearly defined strengths and weaknesses. Something they're good at, something they're bad at, something they don't notice. Everyone has a clearly defined shape to their personality, and have a specific impact on the world. 

But I don't. I feel like the thick line that distinguishes everyone's bodies from everyone else's doesn't exist for me. I don't have any "blind" spots -- there's nothing inside me I haven't analyzed down to the letter already. I have all their traits inside me. I'm creative, dispassionate, aggressive, timid, scared, bold, intelligent, confused -- all in one. And yet I have no real niche or "passion" to speak of. I don't have anything new or authentic to offer the world. I'm good at fulfilling any sort of expectation and I'm exceedingly reliable and determined when I have to do a task. But it's always just "enough". I don't have the creative, _personal _edge that sets my work apart from everyone else's. And so no one notices me. Because I am nice, but I don't have my own footprint. I'm invisible in broad daylight, weaving in and out of the jostling crowd, but never really there. 

And I just keep asking, why? Why do I have to be just ok at everything, instead of being spectacular at a few things? I want to be "that girl who does X really well", because everyone has an X or a Y or several alphabets of their own and I have none. I'm nice. I'm smart. I'm creative. But not enough for any of those things to mean anything. I have no real drive except being happy, loved and experiencing beautiful things. So I don't have the passion to create anything that sets me on my own pedestal.

It terrifies me. One could interpret this situation as the immense potential to go in any direction of my choosing, because everyone is born polarized, everyone is born on one edge of the polygon, and I've always been stuck right in the middle. Realistically, it's true. I could become anything I want. But what's the point? I don't have the passion to distinguish myself in any of those fields. Without passion, there is no hard work. Without hard work, there is no skill. I'm not "good" at anything -- not enough to be looked at and appreciated. And I want that SO fucking much. For people's heads to turn. To carve a new road wherever I walk. For people to admire me. 

But I always just vanish from their memories, like I am insubstantial. I'm always overshadowed by friends and family who have their own niches, and shine bright. They trust me. They like me. But they wouldn't notice if I slipped away and never returned. Perhaps because I was so transparent that no one ever thought I was there. I fit in everywhere, and yet nowhere.

The only real and constant emotions I've known is the long, slow, neverending song of desperate loneliness that plays within my mind, and the pure horror inherent to this universe. Everything else remotely hopeful or positive disappears so fast that it never really counts. It's like walking alone and naked on a cold, dead night and you see places with snatches of warmth and music, but then you pass them, the door shuts and they're gone. Your only companion is the seeping, murderous cold. One day it will kill you. One day something will kill you, because you're alone and unprotected and exposed to the elements. It's so dark you can't even see in front of you, and you desperately wish someone or something would protect you, because your own skin is thin and too weak. You wish you were at least like all those people born strong and impenetrable and unconcerned, but you're not. You're terribly permeable. You're vulnerable and scarred from walking so long. It hasn't hardened you. You're as soft as the day you were born. So everything hurts hundredfold.

Everyone I've ever loved has always been strong and impossibly sure of themselves. Maybe they were with me because they wished they could make me just like them. Maybe they left because it was fruitless. 

Some people would consider this whiny. Maybe because I don't have profound, far-reaching trauma that inhibits me. Some days I wish I did. I wish I could cite specific reasons, causes and effects. I wish it had given me a definite shape. So I don't have to answer questions like this:
"what are you scared of?" "Everything."
"what's wrong with you?" "Everything."
"what do you want?" "Everything."
"what are you?" "Nothing."

(Sorry for the rant.)


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Recede said:


> Okay, I somewhat agree with this but still, not everyone values actualizing potential. Some people find meaning in simply experiencing life and the world, or doing whatever it is that makes them happy, or whatever. Things like having goals and passions will generally improve one's sense of well-being, but worth is still not something one has to earn or build. I make a distinction between personal sense of fulfillment and one's value as a human being.


The only person who can decide someone's value as a human being, is herself.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Animal said:


> The only person who can decide someone's value as a human being, is herself.


I don't quite agree. If someone decides they are worthless, do you think that's true? Don't you think everyone has worth, whether they're able to see that in themselves or not?


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## shallnotbenamed (Dec 19, 2014)

Recede said:


> I don't quite agree. If someone decides they are worthless, do you think that's true? Don't you think everyone has worth, whether they're able to see that in themselves or not?


But if that person is worthless to themselves. So by _their_ perspective, they are worthless. That's what mostly matters.

From other's point of view, they won't be. But their self loathing could eventually make it so.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Deadmanrising said:


> But if that person is worthless to themselves. So by _their_ perspective, they are worthless. That's what mostly matters.
> 
> From other's point of view, they won't be. But their self loathing could eventually make it so.


Yeah, I guess. But one's subjective inner reality isn't the only one that exists or matters. Which one we give more weight to is a matter of individual preference.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Animal said:


> @Recede @Night Huntress
> 
> To a person who can't move on her own, getting to the bathroom each day is a goal. Making it to the end of the night with a 105 fever is a goal. Swallowing a pain killer pill, when the throat is swollen and in pain, is a nearly impossible goal, and only after doing that and waiting can this person even move. So simply making it to the bathroom instead of peeing in the bed is a goal. And that was my life for six months.
> 
> ...


You do this a lot and in other threads I may not give a shit, but this is _my_ thread and I'm going to ask you to stop and make this thread about you. This thread is not about you but this thread is about the people who are of the 369 tritype. These are _your_ issues, this is _your_ perspective. It is evident and obvious that people do not share it so why do you keep pushing for this perspective to be the only one which is valid or true? More than anything else, your post here reflects your core issue and ironically your tritype and its neurotic natural focus. There are 27 different tritypes for a reason, where one each archetypically represents a specific way of understanding life and reality and how we live in and through it. Your tritype is called "the messenger" and is for a reason; the 369 tritype is called "the mediator" for a reason; my tritype 458 is called "the scholar" for a reason. However, it is quite rude of you to come in here and try to make this thread to be about "your message" when this thread is not about that. 

I will ask you to at least try to be a little respectful towards those who do not agree with your perspective and realize that this thread is not about your tritype, the messenger 478. Pushing that perspective into this thread and expecting people to conform to it is therefore highly unfair. I hope you understand and I hope this post to you remains utterly clear in its intentions and purpose. I am terribly sorry for what you had to go through in life, no one should have to suffer from Lyme disease the way you have, but it does not diminish the actions you have done where you have also hurt people who identify or are in some way in agreement with the perspective of the 369 tritype by suggesting that their perspective is of less relevance or is the wrong way to keep in life. Did your perspective help you to get where you are today? That could very well be so, but everyone has their issues and you have to allow to create room for others to express _theirs_, especially in a thread not made by you for you, no matter how small their suffering may appear in contrast to yours. 



Deadmanrising said:


> But if that person is worthless to themselves. So by _their_ perspective, they are worthless. *That's what mostly matters.*
> 
> From other's point of view, they won't be. But their self loathing could eventually make it so.


No offense, but wtf the bolded? How does that matter the most?


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

About the matter of feeling worthless, it can be a self fulfilled prophecy when someone just gets negative messages. If that happens during a long time span the person may internalize that idea, believing that it's true. The important thing is to be able to discern when the message is a lie, but it's difficult when it becomes part of yourself. So when someone has that mindset they can't see their inherent value.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Animal said:


> She said it was bullshit. I agreed that it's bullshit and gave a reason.
> 
> Self-affirmation and positivity come from a sense of purpose, something to chase, hard work and a sense of one's value. I don't care if they are a CEO, a garbage collector, a mother of 10 on welfare, a janitor or a homeless person. All of those people can have a sense of purpose and create something valuable to them. It can be work, it can be dance, it can be LOVE. But until they are doing something that means something to them, regardless how "small' it might seem to you..... they won't have any progress in any way that matters to them. This same rule applies to successful people like corporate drone who don't give any craps about their job. Their life will be empty because, while they are bringing home the bucks, they are not having a sense of PURPOSE, like their life stands for something. Of course, a drone might have the purpose of supporting his family, so then it might be worth suffering for. But my point is, no matter who anyone is or what they are doing, that sense of purpose is their life force. And without that, their self esteem and being ok with themselves will not materialize from the sky. That comes from work, from trying, from reaching out to people, from effort of any sort. Effort is the foundation of confidence.




Your first statement is where you're generalizing. Self-affirmation and positivity come from different places for different people. Not everyone needs or grows with "something to chase". Some people realize their value by not chasing things so much and just stopping to smell the roses. But creating something valuable isn't a prerequisite for possessing value. That is simply intrinsic.

Some people don't care about progress and effort, and you need to realize they are valuable even if they don't. Whether they feel good or bad about that is their own issue -- we are not responsible for dictating the right way to live for everyone. They are valuable no matter how shitty their life is.



> You put a lot of words in my mouth here. I never said that it HAD to be work. I said it could be something meaningful TO THEM. Love. Having children. Being in nature. A sense of purpose could mean ANYTHING. You are interpreting my words and adding in implications about success and the eyes of others and society's values. I can't possibly bring myself to give a crap about those even long enough to comment on those portions of your deflective post.
> 
> But I will make it clear - YOU said this, not me. I never once, anywhere, said that WORK was the only thing on earth that has value, or that society's subjective or objective standards mattered one crap to me. All I was talking about is how it feels inside, to make something happens, when that thing matters to you. And how it feels, is valuable, significant... beautiful.. alive.


Look, you can accuse me of projecting all you want. It doesn't change the point in my post, lol. That is there for everyone to read. When you make posts on the internet, or say things in general, you have to be aware of the implications these may have. When you are on a thread about people (however few those people are, and even if it is simply me) who are clearly expressing a specific issue with their lives and being really candid about it, you are required to recognize how your words will affect them. I hope you understand it takes a tremendous effort to be candid, for many people. When people take the effort to spill their heart, no one has the right to draw lines in the sand about their experience. If you were not aware of this previously, I suggest you take some time to think about it now. When you come into a thread with people/a person talking about themselves being useless, wasted potential, talentless, whatever, and explicitly say their value is in actualizing their potential, that is indeed unfair and disrespectful of their issues. 

No, you didn't say it had to be _only_ work. You said it was work (yes, you included this word), purpose, meaning, blood/sweat/tears. You said simply existing is meaningless and empty, that people do not have value by virtue of existing. And I disagree with that. It is quite ironic how you say people should discover their personal meaning, and then go on to say simply existing and not striving for something is a meaningless way to live. You know, maybe it has meaning to them in ways you could never fathom. There could be tremendous meaning in allowing oneself to coexist with the universe, without striving for anything. There is also meaning in an unfulfilled and depressing life. _If people choose that for themselves, that is up to them, but they are still intrinsically valuable.

_In a thread that is not about you and your form of issues, you're ascribing a definition of value that is personal to you. You're welcome to express yourself, but then you'd better feel accountable for how what you say can affect others and disrespect their lifestyles/mindsets. If I say you have been thoughtless with your post, you do not have the right to contest it, because I am the one who gets to decide if I have been hurt or if my values have been disrespected, in a thread that is explicitly about people with issues like me. 

If you understand that, you're invited to reread my post, which you so graciously dismissed as "crap" and try to understand my viewpoint, and the viewpoint of people like me. If you do not, you're invited to leave the thread.


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## shallnotbenamed (Dec 19, 2014)

Entropic said:


> No offense, but wtf the bolded? How does that matter the most?


Because they're the ones that control themselves, move, eat for themselves, shit for themselves. Others might find them worthwhile but _they_ are the ones living. So if someone finding himself worthless commits suicide, others can't do shit about it(mostly) even if they love him to death.

On the other hand if others find someone completely worthless but he loves himself and keeps living life, isn't that good enough?


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Animal said:


> The only person who can decide someone's value as a human being, is herself.


Yeah... it's a bit simplistic, because I'm sure even the most independent person is affected by someone else's opinion sometimes, but at the end of the day this is pretty much how it works. I don't see much point in value if it's supposed to be something that just exists by default, but it's a subjective thing so if someone finds everything has value to them, then sure. 

As for something more on-topic, I do find myself reconsidering this tritype a bit, as it is easy to second-guess my heart fix. It kinda feels like my image concerns are more competency-based. When it comes to the themes touched upon in this thread, I would say I do feel pretty "human" although I feel pretty awkward at it, but then I don't necessarily feel any less alienated among aliens. ;P It's confusing a bit. However, I don't find myself as concerned over being normal or abormal so much as I am over superiority/inferiority, as I mentioned somewhere before.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@_Entropic_, 
I will stop, no problem. My intention was not to make it about me but to explain my perspective on self-worth using myself as an example, since I do believe that one's own sense of self-worth is determined by themselves alone. I could not dare to write such a post about someone else or comment on their worth. But I won't answer the other posts since it is your thread and you have asked. 

If anyone wants to talk about worth and value (or wants me to respond), we can take this debate to another thread -feel free to tag me.


Edit:

I took the topic here, for anyone who wishes to comment, because I would like to respond to some good points made.
@_Night Huntress_ @_Distortions_ @_Recede_ @_Entropic_ @_Vive_ @_Quang_ @_Philathea_ @Blue Flare or anyone else who wishes to participate. The thread is here, and all opinions and posts are welcome, in fact, encouraged.

http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...able-personal-value-created.html#post21083842

Again, sorry for the derail. I do appreciate the strong dissent. If you wish to copy/paste posts with questions to me, feel free.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Oh, about the "feeling human"-thing, I would say I do have this thing where I can feel rather oblivious on "how to human" and instead of rejecting humanity as nonsensical or beneath me, I anxiously try to figure out what to do to... not fit in exactly, but how to naturally behave or interact with someone else. I don't know, it's hard to feel natural. I wouldn't compare myself to a robot, except that's all that comes to mind, who doesn't know how to do anything but awkwardly mirror whatever is in front of it. So that's what makes me hesitate about identifying as being so "human" because I'm just too _stilted_ in a way (I mean, I try to act natural, but it takes effort). And that does kinda seem to fit with this tritype?


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