# Am I INTJ or INFP? 4w5 or 5w4?



## FreezingDead (Oct 25, 2016)

At the beginning I’d like to say that it’s my first post on this forum, and I might make mistakes, so I’m sorry for them. I’ve been sitting in the whole typology thing since 2014, and have done multiple tests. In 2014 I’ve been suffering from depression and was constantly getting an INFP 4w5 result, which I was fitting with no doubt. But later on, as I was getting healthy, I’ve got a few INFJ’s, INTJ’s, 5w4’s… and right now I’m wondering, which one I may be. 

Let’s start with the thing I’m the most sure of: I’m an *iNtuitive* type. I’ve always been dwelling in my thoughts, losing contact with the world around me, getting ideas of nowhere, taking the unusual approach, imagining situations that would never happen. 

Then, let’s go with *Introversion* – here I’m quite certain, that I’m an Introvert. Spending much time with people makes me tired, spending time with a book or drawing something does the opposite. If a group consists of more than 3 persons I almost never say anything. I like a one-to-one conversation. I also hate small talk, and I’m horrible at it. It’s not that I don’t talk much – it’s that usually around people I feel like I don’t have anything to say cause they’re usually talking in groups about nothing, OR more important I know that for saying what I mean I will be given strange looks and… well, people won’t get it and think I’m weird, so I refuse. 

Now the *Thinking / Feeling* thing. I’m sure about my functions there – Fi and Te without doubt, so I reject being INFJ. But generally something with that type description always seemed to don’t match. I’m terrible at showing affection and emotional support to other people, I never show my emotions around people I don’t know very well. But I feel them. I feel them very much… But I don’t express them in an usual way. I draw. People say there’s always some kind of sadness in my drawings, even If I’m quite happy drawing them or draw them in warm colours. Or I play piano. Or I imagine something. Or I write. However, I can understand only those poems that relate to me. I can see the beauty in sadness and feel like almost no one does. I’m always at least a little melancholic, even at my happiest state, but I’m not depressed. I say myself that what people think about me is their thing, but I worry about it at all. Although, I have a very well developed Te – I seek patterns, I understand maths and physics very well, I apply logical thinking to the outside world. But on the inside, it sucks. I’m quite good at chess, if it matters. I can easily imagine something and develop a plan. But, let’s move to the last issue:

*Perceiving or Judging? *
I’m rarely late. Really. But I’ve got a messy room, cause I don’t think it’s necessary to clean it as long as I know where everything is. I see no difficulty in obeying rules. But I’m lazy at all. I make homework in advance, unless I’m procrastinating cause I think I won’t be able to understand it, because of my unstable self-esteem. I plan my travels very carefully, and I’m doing very well at school. Teachers almost never notice me, so do other students, I often feel like a ghost. But I have one good friend in school, and one outside it, so I’m not alone cause I value few very good friends rather than many non-absorbing ones. If I’m hardworking, it’s hard to answer, cause If I get really involved in something I like, I can spend a whole night reading about it. But when it comes to school, I’m sometimes too lazy to do my homework. 

And I’d like to add, that my whole life I feel like I don’t fit in. It’s constant. I think that the real world is sad and boring so I have my own in my head. It’s important for me to be original, but foremost to be true to yourself. I’d like to know my real type, no matter what it is. And sorry for any mistakes, English is not my primary language, but… I have not that bad language skills. I hope. Sorry I’ve made it that long. If I’m wrong with something, please correct me.


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## Azure Dreamer (May 26, 2016)

Ok I would be glad to help out with typing. Though to clear up a few misconceptions first: 

you can be logical feelers great at math physics etc
Thinkers aren't heartless 
Intuition can be shallow and senders can have depth.
Judging vs Perception just refers to your first extroverted function (J can be disorganized and P can always have a plan, varies person to person).

Anyway if you can fill out one of the questionnaires and post it here I'd be glad to help out with mbti. @FreezingDead roud:

From the sounds of it your probably a introvert through but that still leaves 8 types to narrow down.


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## FreezingDead (Oct 25, 2016)

*The questionnaire *

Oh, sorry I didn't use these questionnaires. I'm a total newbie here. The next time I'll read more threads before starting a new one. 
Thanks @Witch of Dreams for the explaination and reading the whole thing roud:
*
1.	Is there anything that may affect the way you answer the questions? For example, a stressful time, mental illness, medications, special life circumstances? Other useful information includes sex, age, and current state of mind.*

I think no, maybe a little bit stress with school cause it’s a quite good one, but generally I’m doing fine. No mental illness diagnosed, no medications, and no special life circumstances.


*2. What type(s) do you usually score as on tests?*

INTJ

*
3. Click on this link: Flickr: Explore! Choose 2 photos and look at each for as long as you feel that you need. Copy and paste the photos here (or write the link like example: www[dot]flickr[dot]com/photos/jacoboson/8697480741/in/explore-2013-05-01), and write your impression of each of them.*

www[dot]flickr[dot]com/photos/juhell/30449083822/in/explore-2016-10-25/
www[dot]flickr[dot]com/photos/bon_espoir/30531241056/in/explore-2016-10-25/
These two, simply because they seem most appealing to me. It’s like the first one is showing the bad mood, and the second one the good mood, and… well, they’re not great, but they’re fine. I’d like to be in any of these places. 
*
4. You are on the clock to fix something, a friend of yours sits beside you and gives a lot of interesting ideas, none of them actually help or are related to your situation, but they are still something you find interesting. What is your reaction? What do you say? What do you do? What's your train of thought?*

At all, I wouldn’t surely listen to them all, because I’d turn off in some parts of the conversation. I’d remember the most interesting ones and think about them later. However, if I’d have to focus hard while repairing something, I’d say him to remain silent for a while. But generally it wouldn’t bother me that much. 


*
5a. What are some of your most important values? *

Love, honesty, fairness, freedom, being true to yourself.

*
5b. Can they change? What would be the reason if they changed?*
Generally, they all always have been my life values. Maybe they’d change in the future when someone gives me really strong arguments, or based on an experience, but I doubt. 


*
6. You are in a car with some other people, the people in the car are talking. Someone makes a claim that you see as immoral/rude/cruel. What is your inward reaction? What do you think? What do you say?
*
I’d be disgusted, and think it’s bad, but I probably would remain silent at all. Then I’d overthink it at home.

*
7. a) What activities energizes you the most? Why?*

Thinking about different things, or drawing / reading books. I can focus on my thoughts and inside then and it makes me feel energized.



*7. b) What activities drains you the most? Why?*

Big meetings with a lot of people, I simply feel drained after talking and trying to feel good at them.


*
8. Do you believe you are introverted or extraverted? Why do you believe that? (Please be as detailed as possible)*
Introverted, described in the previous post. 

*
9. Please describe yourself, what do you see as your greatest strengths and what do you see as your greatest weaknesses?
*
I think that I’m an quite analysing person. I have a good imagination. I learn new things quickly (music, languages, chess…). I’m quite good at observing people and at predicting things that may happen. When it comes to weaknesses… I’m horrible at expressing feelings and emotions in front of many people. I’m sometimes too detached or insecure. I don’t make new friends easily. 

*
10. Please describe yourself when you are feeling stressed. How do you act and why? Real life experiences are welcome.*

I try to do many different and unnecessary things to avoid the object of stress. I feel like I won’t be able to make that thing I’m stressed about. Sometimes, when I feel stressed because I have to face something I wasn’t mentally prepared for (like, teacher asks for the opinion about something, and then suddenly points out me – I freeze until someone else says something. Eventually I’ll say something like “I don’t know”, or “I don’t have any”. And then have a very complex opinion 2-3 hours later.)


*
11. What is your "soft spot" (the area that makes you upset if people mess with)?*

Animals probably, cause I feel much sympathy towards bad treated animals. It’s like they are so helpless, and people are so cruel, and it just… makes me often sad. 


*
12. What are most of the ideas/thoughts you get generally centered around (try to expand your answers as much as possible)?*

My future, my personality, or things that would never happen, or just the general humanity. I don’t know how to expand it, but I often seek for examples, analyse it all, try to understand things, see the reason why and… I just enjoy that process. One of the reasons why I decided to join this community 


*
13. What's your opinion of getting frequent feedback on what you do? (Someone pointing out what is good, what is bad, what and how to improve) Is there a limit to how often you want feedback? If so, what is the limit?*

I’m sensitive to criticism. I usually ask for feedback when I’m good at something. But when it’s not a very important thing in my life, and someone points out my real disadvantages, then I’ll be fine. Or if someone would analyse my chess game and tell what was wrong, because that’s not exactly my inside, my personality, but just an outcome of some partly-realized plans and thoughts. I’m sensitive if someone criticises who I really am at the pure core. If someone points out some of my incorrect arguments, or some test mistakes – fine. But I’d like some feedback while working on a project or preparing for a competition – that’s usually a good thing. 


*
14. Anything beyond what has been discussed that you would like to add?*

No, I said already most of the things.


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## Azure Dreamer (May 26, 2016)

Hmm definitely fit INXJ. 
You're probably a INTJ in all likelihood based off these answers. From reading looks like you are still introverted and use ni and te with lower fi and se. 
In either case that's my opinion and your the one that gets to decide I'm just here to help. roud: @FreezingDead


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## FreezingDead (Oct 25, 2016)

Thank You 
Do You have maybe any thoughts about the enneagram-thing? For some time I thought I might be a 4w5, but the internet was telling that it's impossible to be INTJ and 4, of course I found some examples of 4w5 INTJ's, but they seemed really rare. Plus I didn't know if I'm 5w4 or 4w5, so I started questioning my type, and as I was hopeless about it I decided to write here. So, I have a few questions:
• Was I right when I thought that every type in MBTI can be any type in Enneagram?
• Which type might I be?

And thanks again for helping and reading it. :kitteh:


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## Azure Dreamer (May 26, 2016)

Any mbti type can be any enneagram type. Two different systems and correlation doesn't mean causation. (Ie INTJ must be type 5 etc)
While I am a 9w1 INFJ I also have a 3 and 7 so my tri type is more associated with enfp but I'm very much infj.
Think of mbti as thought process and enneagram as motivation. Two separate systems one answers why and the other how.

As flopping 4 and 5 it may be possible you have both as a tri type or misidentified as one (or both). I'm not as adapt as enneagram to help as Mbti. 

@Witch of Purity or a post in enneagram type me forum could help you more at this point than myself.

https://www.eclecticenergies.com/enneagram/test.php is a good test for variants and type as well.(tri type is strongest of from each category of 2-4, 5-7, 8-1 with variants) I consider that more of a starting point. Issues for testing for results with type 9s are not uncommon and type 9 can misidentified as type 4/5 and they can mistype as each other as well.

Hope this helps.  @FreezingDead


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## Aladdin Sane (May 10, 2016)

FreezingDead said:


> At the beginning I’d like to say that it’s my first post on this forum, and I might make mistakes, so I’m sorry for them. I’ve been sitting in the whole typology thing since 2014, and have done multiple tests. In 2014 I’ve been suffering from depression and was constantly getting an INFP 4w5 result, which I was fitting with no doubt. But later on, as I was getting healthy, I’ve got a few INFJ’s, INTJ’s, 5w4’s… and right now I’m wondering, which one I may be.
> 
> Let’s start with the thing I’m the most sure of: I’m an *iNtuitive* type. I’ve always been dwelling in my thoughts, losing contact with the world around me, getting ideas of nowhere, taking the unusual approach, imagining situations that would never happen.
> 
> ...


I relate to all of this _very much_, and since you say you are completely sure you have Fi and Te, INTJ is the only option really.


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## bremen (Apr 25, 2016)

@FreezingDead Intj for sure.


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## Jakuri (Sep 7, 2015)

The starter remark I always repeat when it comes to tests: tests are good starting points to eliminate the unlikely types and to give you ideas on which types you might want to take a look at. In my case, 2 and 8 were easily eliminated, while 1, 4, 5, 6, 9 came up as the candidates I should look at. If you take different tests, with some break time between the two tests, you should observe some patterns like the one I posted (e.g. my case: very high on 4, 5, 9; moderately high on 1; 6 fluctuates, but usually moderate~high; moderate/moderate-low for 3 and 7; very low 2 and 8). Shouldn't be the end-all-be-all though, since finding your fix and defence mechanism and basic desire requires reading more books and further introspection.

As for free tests, besides what my fellow witch @Witch of Dreams has mentioned, my favourite has always been the pstypes test, which I found to be quite comprehensive. Eclectic Energies also has a regular test (with no instinctual variants) as well, which I found quite good too.

I wrote up what I saw from what you wrote. I am a bit exhausted after coming back from a school club meeting; I hope I write coherently here, lol. You can read what I wrote, or you can try out the test first as a starting point and then read it. Up to you.


* *





Based on what I read so far, I think it makes sense to look at 4w5 or 5w4, and even possibly having 4 for the heart fix and 5 for the head fix. Gut fix is less notable, but I am getting the triple-withdrawn vibe. But vibe is just a vibe, so you shouldn't be taking my word for it.

I have to say that even though I am INTP, which is similar to yet _very_ different from INTJ, I relate strongly to some of what you wrote.



FreezingDead said:


> I’m terrible at showing affection and emotional support to other people, *I never show my emotions around people I don’t know very well. But I feel them. I feel them very much… But I don’t express them in an usual way.* I draw. People say there’s always some kind of sadness in my drawings, even If I’m quite happy drawing them or draw them in warm colours. Or I play piano. Or I imagine something. Or I write. However, I can understand only those poems that relate to me. *I can see the beauty in sadness and feel like almost no one does. I’m always at least a little melancholic, even at my happiest state, but I’m not depressed.* I say myself that what people think about me is their thing, but I worry about it at all. Although, I have a very well developed Te – I seek patterns, I understand maths and physics very well, I apply logical thinking to the outside world. But on the inside, it sucks. I’m quite good at chess, if it matters. I can easily imagine something and develop a plan. But, let’s move to the last issue:


I think part of it for me is that I am working in a field where feelings have little role (pure math, the epitome of this). But inside, I very much feel. I personally like cherishing those inside, and don't share much with others. The thing for me is that even though I try people wouldn't really pay attention to what I have to say. Inside I am screaming lol, but most of them stay inside. 

The thing about sadness sounds like a classic 4 line. Could be a strong 4 wing, or strong heart fix (even your core). I find myself welcoming sadness in the form of longing. I am gravitated toward pictures (can't draw, so can only drool over others' arts lol) of someone slightly looking up in the sky (or looking away). It's the sense of longing that really pulls me. I think the most accurate way to express this is *wistfulness* -- the intersection of being sad, being nostalgic, but not quite sad at the same time. Even in pictures with positive atmosphere (like in bright colours, for instance), I somehow find wistfulness (my current profile picture is a great example). Whether it's longing for loss of innocence, childlikeness, sense of idealism, loss of trust, and so forth. My Halloween-special username, Witch of *Purity*, also came from this line of thought.

So far, I am slightly leaning toward 4w5 though, since the association with sadness is strong. To put it more precisely, associating with sadness in a way that turns everything into what they make you _you_ (uh, I think that still doesn't capture what I really meant, but I am running out of words. :/). Even when you are drawing things, when you are appreciating beauty, you put your own spin with sadness. Actually this paragraph reads a lot like someone from an image type (e.g., what I underlined, about you not caring much about what other think.....or not). 4w5>5w4 is my impression. While INTJ is usually associated with 5, I would say 4w5 is not far-fetched at all. There are some INTJ 4w5 here too, such as Clyme and Scarlet Eyes.



> And I’d like to add, that my whole life I feel like I don’t fit in. It’s constant. I think that the real world is sad and boring so I have my own in my head. It’s important for me to be original, but foremost to be true to yourself. I’d like to know my real type, no matter what it is. And sorry for any mistakes, English is not my primary language, but… I have not that bad language skills. I hope. Sorry I’ve made it that long. If I’m wrong with something, please correct me.


I don't think you are the only one whose first language isn't English. Well, English is not my first language either.



> *
> 6. You are in a car with some other people, the people in the car are talking. Someone makes a claim that you see as immoral/rude/cruel. What is your inward reaction? What do you think? What do you say?
> *
> I’d be disgusted, and think it’s bad, but I probably would remain silent at all. Then I’d overthink it at home.


Possible 9w1 (I mean gut fix, not your core Enneagram type)? not 100% sure though -- heart and head fixes seem to come strong, but the gut fix...I think your gut fix exerts the least amount of influence. So what I say about gut fix, take with a grain of salt. I think it's safe to eliminate 8 though. Heart>head>gut stacking seems to be it.


> *
> 7. a) What activities energizes you the most? Why?*
> 
> Thinking about different things, or drawing / reading books. I can focus on my thoughts and inside then and it makes me feel energized.
> ...


Introversion for sure; possibly withdrawn Hornevian style (4, 5, 9). "Crawling back to one's [inner world]" in some way is how I think of the three types in the withdrawn Hornevian triad. It's also the triad that I relate the most as well.


> *
> 9. Please describe yourself, what do you see as your greatest strengths and what do you see as your greatest weaknesses?
> *
> I think that I’m an quite analytical person. I have a good imagination. I learn new things quickly (music, languages, chess…). I’m quite good at observing people and at predicting things that may happen. When it comes to weaknesses… I’m horrible at expressing feelings and emotions in front of many people. I’m sometimes too detached or insecure. I don’t make new friends easily.
> ...


lol, story of my life. The thing about freezing...well being a 9 it's more like mental haziness. Combination of "I haven't thought through yet" and "A makes sense, but I can see B too, blah blah". By the time I have some solid opinion, the topic of conversation moved to something else. Too late. Happens way too often for me.

"Detached" is an interesting word choice. So, why do you detach from others? 


> *
> 13. What's your opinion of getting frequent feedback on what you do? (Someone pointing out what is good, what is bad, what and how to improve) Is there a limit to how often you want feedback? If so, what is the limit?*
> 
> I’m sensitive to criticism. I usually ask for feedback when I’m good at something. But when it’s not a very important thing in my life, and someone points out my real disadvantages, then I’ll be fine. Or if someone would analyse my chess game and tell what was wrong, because that’s not exactly my inside, my personality, but just an outcome of some partly-realized plans and thoughts. *I’m sensitive if someone criticises who I really am at the pure core.* If someone points out some of my incorrect arguments, or some test mistakes – fine. But I’d like some feedback while working on a project or preparing for a competition – that’s usually a good thing.


Guilty as charged, and sometimes I have tendencies to take things personally if my values/principles/morality got attacked. One of my main running themes in my life...(strong pure core stuff). One good thing about working in mathematics is that no matter who says it, if an idea is logically incorrect then it is incorrect.... Anyway, that line seems to suggest a strong image/heart fix. I can see some gut types talking about core, but they would phrase things as a way not to get affected. 9 goes along with others (while passive-aggressively resisting, quietly) so that their inner core does not get affected; 8 uses their anger expansively so that they can be independent, and protect their vulnerable core (strong outside, mushy inside); 1 uses their anger internally so that they don't get affected by the outside world by being the morally flawless person they think they are. For gut types, it's all about their own space, their region, their own autonomy and independence in terms of their "space". That line didn't seem to come from the gut perspective but rather the image perspective ("criticizes" your inner core => others are disapproving your inner core, and that seemed to be your focus => likely the heart core).

I sidetracked quite a bit here with random Ne personal rambles, but yeah on the Enneagram front I am thinking slightly 4w5>5w4, though both are good bets. I can't say much about gut fix.


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## FreezingDead (Oct 25, 2016)

Thank You all for Your responses, they're helpful and great 
I took the tests mentioned by @Witch of Dreams and @Witch of Purity , got 4w5 on both, but 5 is right after 4, then goes 6, 1 and 9 (2, 3, 7 and 8 are far behind). The first thing I did was reading the responses, then I took the test. 
@Witch of Purity I can see the *witfulness* you mentioned in the picture, and I think it's a great word to decribe it.

Well, it's likely that for many people here English isn't the first language, but I thought that it'd be good to mention to justify the mistakes. When it comes to these fixes and tritypes (I'm noob in that thing), I got 4w5 5w4 and 1w9 once I took that test (about half an year ago), but didn't find much information about it later.

That thing with the Hornevian style (Withdrawns) is really fitting and interesting - Thank You for mentioning it, didn't even know about it. 

Yeah, the thing about getting a solid opinion too late - happens to me too. But, after all, might be useful when someone would mention the topic again (rarely, but... let's have hope :wink: )

Why do I detach from others... often it's just like they're talking about some very, I mean *very* down-to-earth things, when I simply don't have any idea about what to say. Plus, in big groups you can't focus on each individual, which is an important part of the conversation. And I'm really not interested in gossips, fashion, etc. When there is some topic that interests me, I'll get involved. But, sometimes I just have days when I think like "uh, I just don't fit in there" and give up talking with anyone beside one better friend. Because everyone seems so *normal* and *usual* and I feel like I'm not and... yeah, I just get detached. Like, the risk of being misunderstood is too high. Well, I don't know how to make it clearer, but I hope you'll get the whole thing 

The whole gut thing seems to be really in the shadow when it comes to me, but I think that 8 can be easily eliminated. If it's 1 or 9 I'm not sure - I often try to meet my inner requirements and needs, and I'm more strict with me than I'm with others (for example I think that generally getting 70% of an test is quite good, but sometimes when I get like 89% I'm angry cause I know I got the whole thing well and understood everything, but made some stupid, irrelevant mistakes). Plus often after writing a test I think I wrote it terribly, while the mark is good, but... I always get that feeling that I screwed it up. But I don't know if it has something to do with enneagram and gut. If there was any good test for these triads (or what it is) I'd like to take it and read about these 

And it's quite nice that so many people relate to these things (in real life almost no-one does). I always feel happier when I see things I can identify with, because it happens rarely. And I'm finally sure of my type, which is *4w5 INTJ* if I got everything right. 
Thanks @Witch of Dreams for helping so much with this thing, and @Witch of Purity for that big response. I feel like you put so much effort in it and just... well, that's amazing roud: . And really thanks to everyone for reading and responsing


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