# Are perfectly flat abs really that attractive?



## Cetanu (Jan 20, 2012)

Persephone said:


> I'm convinced that it's actually womanly to have a curve due to the stomach sticking out, like Titian's Venus of Urbino. Most women, it seems, have a bit of fat around the lower belly because of the need to protect both internal organs and the uterus, yet the cultural standard is such that even a small amount there causes mass hysteria among today's women, and many of healthy weight and great physique are distressed about that bit of fat protecting the womb and _can't bear to wear bikinis because of this_.
> 
> This cultural phenomenon really intrigues me- it always seems to me that Venus's soft feminine curves are ten times more erotic than a hard washboard on a woman, but is this really what most men are attracted to? As a woman (a 2 on the Kinsey Scale, so not entirely straight), I find the original paintings in this collection are much more sensual than their derivatives.
> 
> I just want some male opinions on this.


tl;dr: curves and confidence will attract the men that matter.

Here is a picture of some women that are curvy yet still very attractive:










There is absolutely nothing wrong with the weight of the women above. I would take each of them home with me which I think has some significance because I am a handsome, fit young man that could go and get ultra skinny girls instead if I wanted to.

I had a girlfriend that weighed about 85kg when I met her. I was above her standards apparently and so she was very insecure and went on a bulimic rampage to get skinny so that I would remain loyal to her (Her ex's had cheated on her, she didn't trust me). I hated it. I much preferred her body when she was a healthy weight as opposed to being 45kg or so. I also preferred when she didn't care so much about her weight.


----------



## Peripheral (Jan 8, 2011)

Cetanu said:


> tl;dr: curves and confidence will attract the men that matter.
> 
> Here is a picture of some women that are curvy yet still very attractive:


Ooh. I'm all about that right there.


----------



## Narrator (Oct 11, 2009)

I was told I had a flat stomach years ago, the comment perturbed me because it wasn't _literally _flat - I'd not come into contact much with body image obsessiveness in the media and such like, so flat stomach seemed like a weird way to talk about a stomach admiringly; unhealthy, and alien (like something unhuman, rather than unfarmiliar) -, I was skinny (due to living a very active lifestyle) with a natural, healthy layer of fat around my lower abdomnen. The person was just as healthy and young as me, but because they were of a slightly different body type to me, it didn't manifest in exactly the right way (for them), they percieved me as more well shaped - anyone else would have said they had a body that was perfectly deserving of compliments.

I've always found the notion and the reality of an actually vertically flat (top to bottom) stomach not appealing.


----------



## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Signify said:


> Just my input IMO, but when a guy is looking at a woman for beauty, he is either looking a little lower or a little higher. Unless she is obese, it does not really bother me.


I don't see how you can speak for all men on this subject.


----------



## Manhattan (Jul 13, 2011)

A woman can have a little bit extra on her stomach. It can even be cute. As long as her hips are bigger than her waist, and her breasts are even with the body, she can be stunning. I find some muscle tone to be very attractive in an athletic and energetic way, but I also find soft and shapely bodies attractive in a sensual way. It's hard to pick favorites, but wherever I stand, it doesn't leave out any women with a realistic figure.


----------



## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

changos said:


> I don't like women with belly, *I love them!!!!!! *I love those curves. Male here, 30s+.
> 
> I was told years ago that my preference would change over time, it did. I don't like thin girls as I used to, I prefer non skinny or non thin. I've always been into sports and I'm thin myself, and because of the sports, many people thought I would be only attracted to fit girls, well not so much. The preference change over time seems common among many friends (not everyone).
> 
> ...


I have been noticing this too actually, especially up north. It seems like pref in body type does change like fashion. It used to depend simply on status, but now that we are in a rich culture, and the bar has been raised as high as it can be for weird things people can do to their bodies, the preferences change like fashion changes. The south has always been slower to catch to trends, but I have noticed in the north, the skinny craze is dying, and guys seem more into curvier women for the most part.


----------



## Cetanu (Jan 20, 2012)

chip said:


> I don't see how you can speak for all men on this subject.


I haven't met a man that would not resonate with what was said by @Signify.
I'm not saying that it is true for all men as that would be a fallacy but it would not surprise me if it were true for most men.


----------



## Nomenclature (Aug 9, 2009)

Oleas said:


> While I agree with your overall point, I think it's always possible to reduce the belly fat by exercising or doing sports





Promethea said:


> Actually its more about body type than anything, and I saw an actual personal trainer on x-weighted tell that to a girl who was most likely an apple or inverted-triangle shape. For some, they simply won't have their ab muscles exposed. I read a story of a guy who died from anorexia because he was trying to 'get abs' -- but his body type wouldn't permit it.


I want to add that while you can tone specific muscles, you can't spot-burn fat or choose where you lose fat from. It's not ALWAYS possible to reduce belly fat.


----------



## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Nomenclature said:


> I want to add that while you can tone specific muscles, you can't spot-burn fat or choose where you lose fat from. It's not ALWAYS possible to reduce belly fat.


Yep, exactly. Pears have a hard time losing it in the thighs, apples in the upper part.


----------



## Manhattan (Jul 13, 2011)

Nomenclature said:


> I want to add that while you can tone specific muscles, you can't spot-burn fat or choose where you lose fat from. It's not ALWAYS possible to reduce belly fat.


Adipose tissue - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Spot reduction is a myth as it pertains to exercise, and might be a myth entirely. Still if you want to go by Wiki, enough high intensity workouts _will _reduce visceral fat, which will specifically make the abdomen smaller. 

I'm not going to say that we have complete control over our proportions: Not all abdominal fat is visceral fat, so there is a limit there. Also, the wider the actual bone structure of the individual, the less fatty their waist will appear from the front. Obviously we have no control over our bone structure. 

Regarding spot reduction, I know that certain fats are stored in specific areas. Some of this is hormonal, though I don't know all the factors. I believe Omega-6 is generally stored in the midsection, while Omega-3 is generally stored around the hips. This is a complete guess, but it could be possible that changing the type of fat intake or some other nutritional factor _may _spot reduce or even cause spot growth.


----------



## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

Perfectly flat . Hum, why. I don't think i've ever seen perfectly flat abs, and if i did i remember thinking how much work it would require for me personally to get there. That would mean i would have to commit myself to sit ups, abs exercises, i'm way too lazy for that...nah, i like my little pooch, they can keep their flat abs.


----------



## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Cetanu said:


> I haven't met a man that would not resonate with what was said by @_Signify_ .
> I'm not saying that it is true for all men as that would be a fallacy but it would not surprise me if it were true for most men.


 I think Signify could have specified more instead of generalizing because there definitely are exceptions out there. I believe if most men look at women in that way, it's because of the way the media has influenced them to. It's like fast food chains. They're around every corner, that's how the ads are, especially in big cities. Imo, it's like meth, lol. Insidious and damaging.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

I think women with a little extra body fat are more aesthetically pleasing (definitely not fat, or even chubby, but "softer" looking and with fuller curves as opposed to more "hard" looking women who to me look desexualized and more like men)


----------



## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Like @Promethea said, body type makes a big difference. It really isn't possible for everyone to achieve the "washboard abs" look. I have had a six pack in the past, and fuck, it took way too much work. Wow. It was annoying. Generally though, I have a softer curvier body and that look, as much as it awed people, started to feel unnatural to me. It took a lot of time and effort to maintain. 

Recently, I decided to take on the "six pack abs" challenge again for fun. But, I gave up after achieving a healthier weight (losing 10-12 pounds) because it's not worth it. Luckily, I don't gain much weight around my mid-section. But, my lower abs..oh Lord..when I gain weight..I get a lil pooch that really bothers me. Most people who've read my posts on body image and the media etc., know how vehemently critical I am of arbitrary beauty 'ideal's. And still, I feel compelled to get rid of the extra fat in my lower abs. I can't stand it. Though, my partner didn't have a problem with it when I gained some weight. He actually liked it. 

I find softer bellies beautiful on women much nicer looking than unnaturally flat abs.


----------



## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Cetanu said:


> Here is a picture of some women that are curvy yet still very attractive


Correction: not skinny yet still conventionally thin and toned -enough- by the same conventional standards. 
These women are what they are calling plus-size these days, yet they are not even an XL in pants size. 
This is still part of the distorted media standard in advertising.


----------



## Peripheral (Jan 8, 2011)

Promethea said:


> Correction: not skinny yet still conventionally thin and toned -enough- by the same conventional standards.
> These women are what they are calling plus-size these days, yet they are not even an XL in pants size.
> This is still part of the distorted media standard in advertising.



Yeah, that is true, those are pretty photogenic examples of "plus-sized" right there. If they were actual plus-sized women, there would be a lot more belly and thigh/leg fat going on in that picture.

And my previous comment would still stand.


----------



## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Promethea said:


> Correction: not skinny yet still conventionally thin and toned -enough- by the same conventional standards.
> These women are what they are calling plus-size these days, yet they are not even an XL in pants size.
> This is still part of the distorted media standard in advertising.



They're 'curvy' in the sense that they have the *coveted* hourglass figures, not curvy in the sense that they even reflect what the average woman looks like. Excellent point Promethea. And they're nowhere near "plus size".


----------



## Cetanu (Jan 20, 2012)

chip said:


> I think Signify could have specified more instead of generalizing because there definitely are exceptions out there. I believe if most men look at women in that way, it's because of the way the media has influenced them to. It's like fast food chains. They're around every corner, that's how the ads are, especially in big cities. Imo, it's like meth, lol. Insidious and damaging.


How do you know it's media?



Promethea said:


> Correction: not skinny yet still conventionally thin and toned -enough- by the same conventional standards.
> These women are what they are calling plus-size these days, yet they are not even an XL in pants size.
> This is still part of the distorted media standard in advertising.


The women in the photo I posted aren't thin. They have large legs (possibly bigger than mine - and I put a lot of work into making mine large) and I could grab/pull on the fat around their waist.

My point is, there's nothing wrong with that; A problem arises when one is overweight or even obese called heart disease due to too much fat around the heart and organs in general.
I have no sympathy or attraction for someone that actively chooses to be larger than the women in the picture I posted. It's as bad as smoking or binge drinking in my opinion.

I know that the women I posted aren't "plus size" as you all call it. Strange term. I think the correct word is "obese".

Here is a plus size woman:










I slept with one once because I didn't think it would be as bad as everyone makes it out to be and could be just as fun as any other sexual partner.

I was incorrect.

It was significantly off-putting to have a large belly there in the middle of sex and oral was harder to perform due to the amount of body fat.
I would not consider doing it again unless I was very desperate for sex.


----------



## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Cetanu said:


> How do you know it's media?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 You're funny  Not all women choose to be their size, it's in their genetics, seriously. I know it's the media because I've done extensive research and I'm a feminist, which has to do with this, with women's rights. I can't believe you're complaining about how a woman looks because of it some how getting in the way of sex. I Believe you're driven too sexually and perhaps you buy into the media too much, too.


----------



## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Cetanu said:


> The women in the photo I posted aren't thin.


Actually they are thin. They have only a minimum amount of body fat, which hugs their form tightly. The reason you don't think they are thin comes from the typical flawed and warped standard that women are only thin if they are skeletal.



Cetanu said:


> They have large legs (possibly bigger than mine - and I put a lot of work into making mine large) and I could grab/pull on the fat around their waist.


Just because you're a very tiny male doesn't mean a woman bigger than you is "larger than average."



Cetanu said:


> I have no sympathy or attraction for someone that actively chooses to be larger than the women in the picture I posted. It's as bad as smoking or binge drinking in my opinion.


So then you get to determine what size a woman should be? And only being unhealthy can make a woman larger than this? Seriously, I wonder who the fuck you are to basically bind our bodies into what you think they should be.



Cetanu said:


> I know that the women I posted aren't "plus size" as you all call it. Strange term. I think the correct word is "obese".


You need to google bmi, and actually bother to understand it.


----------



## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

I don't understand why people dissect human bodies so much in the first place and most of the time, they use the obese harm to the heart excuse to be this way. Why does this even matter? Why is the female appearance so damn important to some of you? We're all going to lose our youth and fade away. Does it matter so much because of this fact? Are you terrified? You distract from it by objectifying so you feel immortal because deep down you're really afraid of becoming old and decrepit. At one point in time before fast food was around every corner, larger women were seen as the survivors because they survived epidemics because they were healthier. Now, the survivors seem to be seen as hard abs and fake breasts and lipo suctioned bodies. How freakish is this? Very. Forgive me for taking such a radical stance on this topic but I've seen it so much that I'm terribly sick of it. Every culture I've seen has something so vile, yet so similar and it leads to usually one reason why. It's fear, a stupid useless fear of losing youth and dying because hardly anyone can accept that it will happen which is sad, because anything meaningful in life will seem so shallow, it's ruined and cheapened. I'm happy inside knowing not everyone is so cheap inside. We fear that pop-culture is the only culture we're ever going to have We want to stop reading magazines Stop watching T.V. Stop caring about Hollywood But we're addicted to the things we hate


----------



## Cetanu (Jan 20, 2012)

chip said:


> You're funny  Not all women choose to be their size, it's in their genetics, seriously. I know it's the media because I've done extensive research and I'm a feminist, which has to do with this, with women's rights. I can't believe you're complaining about how a woman looks because of it some how getting in the way of sex. I Believe you're driven too sexually and perhaps you buy into the media too much, too.


I politely decline to adopt your point of view, even though I am willing to, because I would like some sort of research or evidence shown.
I can see how media could affect this issue but I do not currently see how it actually is doing so.

How can I help it if certain sensations during sex are displeasing for me? I apply the same standard to men too. I've had sex with men who had a high body fat percentage, one of which in fact had a belly, among other things like sub-par hygiene and personality as well.. all of which I didn't like hence I no longer have sex with these people but I didn't judge them on first appearance and gave them a chance (how kind of me, I know! *laughs)

Maybe if I were pansexual these things wouldn't be a problem. I only apply standards on others which I have already placed on myself.

I'm not sure if I said earlier that I had a girlfriend who was 85kg (heavier than me) and I found her very attractive.
I just don't like it when a person's weight becomes a physical threat to their health. A huge belly cannot be healthy... I refuse to believe it.


----------



## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Cetanu said:


> I politely decline to adopt your point of view, even though I am willing to, because I would like some sort of research or evidence shown.
> I can see how media could affect this issue but I do not currently see how it actually is doing so.
> 
> How can I help it if certain sensations during sex are displeasing for me? I apply the same standard to men too. I've had sex with men who had a high body fat percentage, one of which in fact had a belly, among other things like sub-par hygiene and personality as well.. all of which I didn't like hence I no longer have sex with these people but I didn't judge them on first appearance and gave them a chance (how kind of me, I know! *laughs)
> ...


 Look around you, it's everywhere, dude. Everywhere. It effects everyone even if you don't think it does. Young women become anorexic because they are influenced easily by these horrible ads full of photo shopped 'beauties' beauty pageants...good god, I don't need to explain any resource, just research for yourself. It's so easy to see. Look up Jean killbourne- Killing us softly on youtube.


----------



## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Cetanu said:


> I politely decline to adopt your point of view, even though I am willing to, because I would like some sort of research or evidence shown.
> I can see how media could affect this issue but I do not currently see how it actually is doing so.
> 
> How can I help it if certain sensations during sex are displeasing for me? I apply the same standard to men too. I've had sex with men who had a high body fat percentage, one of which in fact had a belly, among other things like sub-par hygiene and personality as well.. all of which I didn't like hence I no longer have sex with these people but I didn't judge them on first appearance and gave them a chance (how kind of me, I know! *laughs)
> ...


 Lol, yes, being pregnant can be unhealthy, too but you're no doctor xD


----------



## Cetanu (Jan 20, 2012)

Promethea said:


> Actually they are thin. They have only a minimum amount of body fat, which hugs their form tightly. The reason you don't think they are thin comes from the typical flawed and warped standard that women are only thin if they are skeletal.
> 
> Just because you're a very tiny male doesn't mean a woman bigger than you is "larger than average."
> 
> ...


You seem to be personally offended by what I've said. If I am correct in saying that you think you are larger than the women in the picture I posted then you should know that you appear to be thinner than them. 

Let's calculate the BMI of my beloved ex who I was with for 2 years.
Her height was roughly 172cm so let's be generous and say 180cm (Taller than me, which she was not).
At 85kg her BMI is 26.2 which is classed as Overweight.
The women in the picture I initially posted look physically fatter than my apparently overweight girlfriend _ever_ was therefore they are likely to be overweight, even bordering on obese. Their body fat percentage is probably above 19% and I disagree about it hugging their form tightly. There is a difference between skeletal and thin - a big difference. You don't know my standards. I don't like skeletal women.

I don't tell anyone what their weight 'should be'. I never have. I'm just expressing my opinion and the opinion of many men that I know (all of them) on what is attractive. _Are you trying to tell me what to be attracted to?_


----------



## Cetanu (Jan 20, 2012)

chip said:


> Look around you, it's everywhere, dude. Everywhere. It effects everyone even if you don't think it does. Young women become anorexic because they are influenced easily by these horrible ads full of photo shopped 'beauties' beauty pageants...good god, I don't need to explain any resource, just research for yourself. It's so easy to see. Look up Jean killbourne- Killing us softly on youtube.


I know the media affects everyone including myself. I want a sixpack and all that stuff that apparently every woman wants but whether they want it because of the media or not, I don't know. You are telling me that my idea of what is attractive is based off what media puts out.
But I am attracted to women that my friends say are ugly all the time. I've even gone out with a girl when I was very young which my dad said "has a manly face".
I find girls attractive when I know that society doesn't. So I fail to see how my personal ideas of what is attractive is harshly influenced by media.
YouTube videos and articles are fair enough but I am interested to see if you have any scholarly papers on the matter and if not then I suggest you look into creating one/some because you appear to be passionate about this if you go so far as to study Feminism and all that.



chip said:


> Lol, yes, being pregnant can be unhealthy, too but you're no doctor xD


I don't see the relevance that an unhealthy pregnancy has with this issue. If you are trying to be funny I apologize - I can't tell these things easily over the internet.

--

If I have offended you in this thread and you are female (or male) feel free to PM me about it because I am positive that I have been or am being misinterpreted and I'm sure there are insecurities in the mix here as well.


----------



## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

These were directed to @Promethea, but I will respond to them as well. It's hard to hold back in the face of such exquisitely well-informed commentary.



Cetanu said:


> How do you know it's media?


Research, experience and, above all, common sense.



Cetanu said:


> The women in the photo I posted aren't thin. They have large legs (possibly bigger than mine - and I put a lot of work into making mine large) and *I could grab/pull on the fat around their waist.*


This is disgusting. If you think toned women with large breasts are "not thin" (unless thin=borderline anorexic, which seems like it given your definition of "ultra thin" girls you can 'have'), you are seriously mistaken. Comparing a woman's legs to a man's is absolutely ridiculous. Women are built differently and tend to store fat in the thigh area, in ways men don't. I shouldn't have to spell that out for you. 



Cetanu said:


> I have no sympathy or attraction for someone that actively chooses to be larger than the women in the picture I posted. It's as bad as smoking or binge drinking in my opinion.


I don't care about whom you find attractive, but people don't really "Actively choose" to be larger than the women whose photo you shared. And these women are not even in the "large" category to begin with. And, you're saying that anything larger than those toned, hour-glass shaped, full busted women is obese? Please. Get a clue. 






Cetanu said:


> I would not consider doing it again unless I was very desperate for sex.


You won't be doing anyone a favour. A woman, regardless of her weight, doesn't exist to please superficial men "desperate for sex".

And yes, I get that you once dated a heavier woman and like women to be healthy. Unfortunately, some of your comments don't line up very well with your open-minded concern for women's health and well being.


----------



## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Cetanu said:


> *You seem to be personally offended by what I've said. If I am correct in saying that you think you are larger than the women in the picture I posted* then you should know that you appear to be thinner than them.
> 
> Let's calculate the BMI of my beloved ex who I was with for 2 years.
> Her height was roughly 172cm so let's be generous and say 180cm (Taller than me, which she was not).
> ...


_You're_ making it personal. I was merely combating a flawed perception. I find that once in a while someone is immature enough to come back with "well you must be some fat chick if you don't like these standards" -- on the contrary, my photos are in my profile and will easily prove otherwise. As a matter of fact, that is the only reason I put them up on this forum, because I get into these discussions and sometimes someone will try to discredit my argument by saying that I must be "fat." The real problem here however, is that they assume its a negative thing in trying to use it as a tactic. And that is a problem that I combat -- for everyone. Somehow, men in this culture think that no matter how conventionally unattractive they are, they can sit on a pedestal and judge women. Its a social problem, as anorexia has been on the rise ever since this culture became obsessed with thinness. 

And yes, I believe those women to be thin. Anything under plus size is thin in my book. You are claiming that I have to be larger than those women to have any opinion on this matter which I find beyond repugnant that you would try to take shots at my appearance over my opinion -- and yes thats how I interpret it because of your own opinion of what female body weight "should" be. 

I study nutrition science, and my personal trainer in the last state I lived in said that I am in the mid-range of my correct weight spectrum in bmi, so I will be damned if I'm going to have some kid on the internet take shots at my weight simply for having an opinion on beauty standards. 

I am also decent enough to withhold my own opinion on your appearance personally.

I see that you care about your exs bmi more than even she probably does.


----------



## Cetanu (Jan 20, 2012)

Promethea said:


> ...


I'm very offended that you have skewed my words to suit your insecurity and to blame me for calling you fat.

I've seen your picture. Yes, the one of your body in the mirror.

Get this into your head Promethea.
You are not fat. Just like I am not fat.
I would _never_ say "Here comes fatty" if I saw you walking down the street. Anyone that would is a flipping lunatic.
Wow I feel like I'm trying to convince my bulimic ex that she's attractive all over again.

I don't have to deal with this.


----------



## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Cetanu said:


> I'm very offended that you have skewed my words to suit your insecurity and to blame me for calling you fat.
> 
> I've seen your picture. Yes, the one of your body in the mirror.
> 
> ...


This is completely ludicrous! Do you actually remember the first two lines of the post I ACTUALLY responded to where you accused me of thinking I was larger than those women in that photo? When in the hell would you assume something that absurd? Now you're not only telling me that I think that, but running with it and making more daft assumptions. You shouldn't have made such a claim in the first place. Christ.



Cetanu said:


> *You seem to be personally offended by what I've said. If I am correct in saying that you think you are larger than the women in the picture I posted*


----------



## Cetanu (Jan 20, 2012)

Promethea said:


> This is completely ludicrous! Do you actually remember the first line of the post I ACTUALLY responded to where you accused me of thinking I was larger than those women in that photo? When in the hell would you assume something that absurd? Now you're not only telling me that I think that, but running with it and making more daft assumptions. You shouldn't have made such a claim in the first place. Christ.


You can't read, did you know that?



> You seem to be personally offended by what I've said. If I am correct in saying that you think you are larger than the women in the picture I posted then you should know that you appear to be thinner than them.


If I am correct in saying the following, which is to say that
You have the personal opinion of yourself that you are larger than the women in the picture
_Which is to say_ that *I don't think you are* but it's *possible* that *you might have this opinion of yourself*
_In the case that this is *true*_ then I would reassure you by saying that you are actually thinner than them.
This entire thing is a hypothetical and only applies *if* you personally (as in, you, the person you are, Promethea) think that you are bigger than them.

In the case that you do not think this then you should disregard the statement because it no longer applies.

Do you understand now? I hope so.

It wasn't a personal attack. I was being nice. You took it the wrong way. By *a lot*.


----------



## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Cetanu said:


> You can't read, did you know that?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I disagreed with your standards of what it means to be thin, and you accused me of the following in response, with no way to back it up:



Cetanu said:


> You seem to be personally offended by what I've said. If I am correct in saying that you think you are larger than the women in the picture I posted


So basically the only way a woman can disagree with your standards is if shes fat, or thinks shes fat. How convenient.


----------



## reletative (Dec 17, 2010)

Slender well-toned bodies are sexy. And in many cases, so are round curvy bodies. It really depends on the person, and how they rock it.  I mean, some people have a belly, and an attitude that says "damn right im' sexy" and guess what...damn right they're sexy. and some people have smoking bodies, but horrible attitudes that totally turn me off. 

But I guess I'm one that chooses partners based on personality first and looks second. I don't like to look down on people who need that physical attraction though. I mean, if that's how you're wired, who am I to question it. I don't like the idea that people get slammed as "superficial" for needing a certain level of physical attraction. That seems as unfair to question as the people who need a certain personality. 

I do think our society places too much value and pressure on looks, especially for women. Also our society is unbelievably unhealthy....America has some of the worst eating habits in the world. We have so much food and we either eat too much or eat too little. I wish the US would have a nutritional revolution. If our society as a whole really understood health, some of these "body image" problems would be solved. I do believe that. People would know how their own individual bodies worked and what they needed for fuel, and what kind of BMI they should work towards


----------



## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

Khys said:


> I do think our society places too much value and pressure on looks, especially for women. Also our society is unbelievably unhealthy....America has some of the worst eating habits in the world. We have so much food and we either eat too much or eat too little. I wish the US would have a nutritional revolution. If our society as a whole really understood health, some of these "body image" problems would be solved. I do believe that. People would know how their own individual bodies worked and what they needed for fuel, and what kind of BMI they should work towards


Its a Si/Se dom culture with capitalistic marketing has been pulling out all stops for the last century. Back when government had some power, it managed to cut smoking via surgeon label and public service announcements. Sadly, corporations now own the government and sensationalism has dominated what little attention spans people have left.


----------



## reletative (Dec 17, 2010)

nonnaci said:


> its a si/se dom culture with capitalistic marketing has been pulling out all stops for the last century. Back when government had some power, it managed to cut smoking via surgeon label and public service announcements. Sadly, corporations now own the government and sensationalism has dominated what little attention spans people have left.


y this book no have pictures


----------



## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

nonnaci said:


> Its a Si/Se dom culture with capitalistic marketing has been pulling out all stops for the last century. Back when government had some power, it managed to cut smoking via surgeon label and public service announcements. Sadly, corporations now own the government and sensationalism has dominated what little attention spans people have left.


Very excellent point.


----------



## electricky (Feb 18, 2011)

Cetanu said:


> tl;dr: curves and confidence will attract the men that matter.
> 
> Here is a picture of some women that are curvy yet still very attractive:
> 
> ...


 
Sorry, but yeah, those girls are not _curvy_ curvy. They are very hourglass, _very_ busty, and have flat (even if not washboard flat) middles. I'd estimate that they're about a size 6 (nowhere near actual plus size, or even overweight) and well, well below 85 kg (187 lbs). It's amazing how their full-breastedness throws people off so much. 

Did anyone even see the classic paintings linked in the first post? Now those are better examples of being a little curvy in the middle too. Here they are again http://flavorwire.com/257063/startling-photoshop-makeovers-of-classic-nudes-in-art?all=1 See the difference?


----------



## Elyasis (Jan 4, 2012)

ElectricSparkle said:


> I'd estimate that they're about a size 6 (nowhere near actual plus size, or even overweight) and well, well below 85 kg (187 lbs). It's amazing how their full-breastedness throws people off so much.


I wear size 6 and can say those aren't size 6.

125 lbs 5'6''

57~ Kg 168~ cm


----------



## electricky (Feb 18, 2011)

Elyasis said:


> I wear size 6 and can say those aren't size 6.
> 
> 125 lbs 5'6''
> 
> 57~ Kg 168~ cm


I'm not so sure it's as straightforward as that. I'm 140lbs and 5'4" and somewhere between a 6 and a 8. Maybe on the top they're bigger than a 6, but the rest of them is on the small side of average, so at the least I doubt they're actually plus sized (unfortunately they probably are _modeling_ plus sized, and if in tv shows or a movie might fall into the "hollywood fat" trap).


----------



## Elyasis (Jan 4, 2012)

Those are 8-14.

Granted I'm not assless for a thin chick.


----------



## saltare (Jun 17, 2011)

Khys said:


> I do think our society places too much value and pressure on looks, especially for women. Also our society is unbelievably unhealthy....America has some of the worst eating habits in the world. We have so much food and we either eat too much or eat too little. I wish the US would have a nutritional revolution. If our society as a whole really understood health, some of these "body image" problems would be solved. I do believe that. People would know how their own individual bodies worked and what they needed for fuel, and what kind of BMI they should work towards


People are so quick to criticize others out of insecurity. Since a ridiculous percentage of women in the United States are overweight (According to BMI), there has been a shift in what is regarded “socially acceptable.” I am 5’7 and 115-120, and I actually get _criticized_ for being too skinny. Before the fast food epidemic my figure would have been considered “ideal.”



Cetanu said:


> I just don't like it when a person's weight becomes a physical threat to their health. A huge belly cannot be healthy... I refuse to believe it.


I couldn't agree more.


----------



## wiarumas (Aug 27, 2010)

I don't like abs. I prefer a healthier build in a woman not being the ideal size since the 1960s. Bodies like that of Marilyn Monroe and Jayne Mansfield. You know, child bearing hips and hourglass figure.


----------



## Elyasis (Jan 4, 2012)

wiarumas said:


> I don't like abs. I prefer a healthier build in a woman not being the ideal size since the 1960s. Bodies like that of Marilyn Monroe and Jayne Mansfield. You know, child bearing hips and hourglass figure.


So you like dem bones then?


----------



## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@saltare
Your figure would still be considered "ideal". In fact, it is one of the coveted body types out there. The other body type that's glorified (thanks to media influence and evo psych bullshit) is the 'hourglass' shape. _Criticism_ for thinness is laced with concern; whereas, criticism for being overweight or for being perceived as overweight, even if the person in question is well within their healthy BMI range, takes a dehumanizing, mocking form which is nowhere near as degrading as the 'criticism' directed towards thin women, unless they're extremely thin, in which case they're considered less feminine, less desirable and so on. 

A 120 pound 5'7 woman is not dangerously/extremely thin, so luckily for you, you're not the target of the kind of discrimination and abuse directed at the overweight/obese, as well as those that are pretty healthy at their weight and activity level, but seem "fat" to media brainwashed morons. 

Do I think America is unhealthy, on the whole? Absolutely. Do I think obesity is on the rise and needs to be fought with education, resources and access to nutritional/health related information especially in the case of the lower-class who are least likely to be well-informed on issues of nutrition and fitness? Absolutely. Do I think what is considered "plus size" today is actually "fat"? Absolutely not. 

Women are starving themselves to death to meet an arbitrary, unhealthy ideal. Men are, similarly, harming their health to meet the "social ideal", whatever that may be, depending on time period and cultural influence. Average sized men and women are being made to feel undesirable, fat and even ugly. All of this is problematic, as problematic as the obesity epidemic. 

p.s. Because of the kinds of personal commentary @Promethea has had to confront, I am going to make an important point. I should share that I am an athletic martial artist more active, stronger and more in shape than most people out there lofl. So, this isn't exactly coming from an _*insecure fatty*_. Thanks.


----------



## wiarumas (Aug 27, 2010)

Elyasis said:


> So you like dem bones then?


Not sure what you meant by this (assuming you misunderstood or misread), but to summarize/reiterate my post - I like a healthy, "I can bear a child", but not overweight size in my women. I don't like abs because its too little fat, and I don't like them to be too large either. A healthy build, healthy BMI, healthy % body fat - a person not overeating nor starving - is my preference.

Like the two I listed:

http://dailyfashionandstyle.com/img/arts/2009/Dec/07/325/jayne_m.jpg
http://supernaturalbotanicals.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/marilyn-31.jpg

Not boney, not fat.


----------



## zomberlover (Sep 17, 2011)

Persephone said:


> Lol. I'm aware of the diversity in opinions- I've been browsing a couple of fora lately (dealing with attraction) and it really blows my mind, and comforts me at the same time, that there is somebody for everybody. It's just that with the media honking about perfectly flat abs and everyone clamoring to lose those 5 pounds of fat and wanting their BMI to be less than 18.5, I can't really tell to what _extent_ this really reflects reality (Just like the "average" American family. What does it actually look like? Depictions on TV? Who knows? I'm disoriented by all this media!) Do most men, assuming we can remove the influence of media, like washboard abs?
> 
> I'm actually a girl with flat abs who's looking to gain some, and every time I search for how best to gain weight (there are good... and bad ways), Google search gives me hundreds of links to how to lose instead. Google has been a wonderful tool, and it's the first time it has failed me so miserably and gave me the opposite of what I'd searched for. Just goes to show the kind of thick "flat abs" atmosphere that's been pervading our society.


 
2 things I would like to say in response to this.

I used to (and still do sometimes) feel really uncomfortable about my body, at least underneath the clothes. I am about 5'4 and weigh 135, I am "skinny" but I do have an hourglass figure. I got a nice big booty and my breast size fits my body well. So why am I uncomfortable taking my clothes off in front of a guy when its time to get down and dirty? Because the media puts so much pressure on all of us to be PERFECT! Which in reality, is very unnatural, and unhealthy.

start rant/ So I was at books a million the other day and saw all these magazines with "beautiful" women on the cover. They were all half naked, huge perky breast, tan, fat in only the right places (boobs and butt), completely flat abs, an in some sensual position and/or the looks on their faces were screaming "Please come fuck me now!" 
In that moment I had a flash of anger because this is what we are expected to be like? This is what young girls aspire to be? (but never will) I am not saying this is the sole source of mental illnesses such as anorexia and bulimia, but think of how many cases are built on wanting to look perfect. Or even just having plain old anxiety when you dont look this way that women are expected to look. I expressed these views to my boyfriend, and he disagreed with me. He said that what if it is positive for these women to be sexually free, especially compared with how we used to be, and what about the men that never get to have sex? They at least get to enjoy looking at these pictures. He just doesnt see anything morally wrong with it, or thinks that there is some positive outcome that could happen in the future, so I shouldnt discount it too quickly. I think the women who do this are selfish individuals, who want the praise to be on themselves for their looks, and dont think about the consequences that it brings to humanity. Whatever happened to beauty being in the mind? This is what society cares about, and personally, I think its sick. /end rant


Bah, sorry. I had to let that out first. Let me follow up with I went to bonaroo last summer, and what I saw was very uplifting. It was about 98 degrees constantly, so every woman was in a bikini. I have never been around so many *real* almost naked women, and therefore never have gotten to see whats normal. The tiny things I dont like about my body, stretch marks, fatty areas, big thighs, razor burn on my legs, any amount of hair in undesireable places (other than on my head), cellulite. These are the normal things. This is what real humans are made of. No one had a perfect body. No one looked like the girls in the magazines or in the media. These were real women, and they were hot. They looked like me!


As far as the gaining weight thing goes, I am actually learning about nutrition in school right now, and have maybe some info you could use. First, calculate your BMI with an online calculator and if you are in between 20-25 dont worry about it. If you are less than 20, then you might need to gain a tad. The only problem is to gain weight, theres no super healthy way to do it. The way your body stores fat is when it takes in more energy sources than it needs, then the rest is converted to fat to be stored and used later when needed. The quickest way to turn energy into stored fat (gain weight) is to eat things with saturated fats, which are unhealthy for you and raise your risk of heart disease. Things with saturated fats are fried foods, baked goods, fatty meats, etc. 

My advice though, is to just be healthy and natural. There is nothing more beautiful than a healthy woman that is satisfied with who she is, and what her body looks like. I would say strive to be *healthy* instead of striving to weigh a certain amount.

Anyway, sorry to be so long-winded, hope that helps.


----------



## Elyasis (Jan 4, 2012)

wiarumas said:


> Not sure what you meant by this (assuming you misunderstood or misread), but to summarize/reiterate my post - I like a healthy, "I can bear a child", but not overweight size in my women. I don't like abs because its too little fat, and I don't like them to be too large either. A healthy build, healthy BMI, healthy % body fat - a person not overeating nor starving - is my preference.
> 
> Like the two I listed:
> 
> ...



I assure you fat distribution has nothing to do with being able to bear a child. Child bearing hips is actually a myth. It the pelvic bowl (the hole in the bones making up the pelvic structure) that matters. And that's not something you can ascertain by looking at someone.

Woman, know thy pelvis | Devi Doula


That's all I was really getting at. If you think you are basing your attraction based on the ability to bear children, you really aren't. Also, naturally thin women exist that aren't "starving" themselves.

Also, bear children.


----------



## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

Stomach sticking out?

I don't see the attraction but I see how some people could I guess..

Its not about being perfect. Its about accepting who we are and others for who they are.

If we think round or flat is better, its just showing our self image issues in the first place.


----------



## DMack (Aug 16, 2011)

Flat stomachs for the win! But please not a six pack and I'd rather you had a little bit of a belly than ribs that can be counted through two sweaters. There really is a balance that's needed. Having said that how a woman carries herself plays more into her attractiveness than how flat her stomach is.


----------



## Falling Leaves (Aug 18, 2011)

Having a curved spine, a curvy (in the real sense of the word) figure and a genetic predisposition to storing fat on my stomach... nope, I can diet all I want but I'm never going to have a pancake-flat tummy. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

The trouble is, women don't tend to feel primary sexual attraction towards other females, therefore they let the media define what traits are 'attractive' instead of deciding for themselves - hence the whole 'ZOMG I MUST BE MALNOURISHED TO BE ATTRACTIVE' attitude which has spawned recently. 

...the thing is, as this thread has very well illustrated, if you go out and ask real men what they see physically attractive in women the answers are not even slightly reflective to the attitude which the mass media sends out - that even having the slightest pinch of fat on your stomach means that you are a disgusting, fat whale with absolutely no self-control (as opposed to the 'beautiful' models who compulsively starve themselves, you know, the same ones who if they so much as look at food have to stick two fingers down their throats).

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if the body is thin, fat, curvy, skinny, a pair of breasts is still a pair of fucking breasts. Not to say that men only care about _certain_ physical attributes on a woman, but if you really think that the first thing they are going to notice when they first see you naked is that perhaps you have a little too much fat on your stomach... then yes, you really do need to rethink your body image.

...

Also, another point I wanted to make...

You know how the boundaries on BMI are set? It's not about how someone physically looks, it's about at what weight/height ratio, statistically speaking, risks for certain diseases goes up. So yes, in short obese people are doing an incredible amount of harm to themselves....

...having said that, it's also inclusive of the 'underweight' catagory as well - in many respects, starving yourself is far, far more dangerous than being obese. How many revered-as-beautiful supermodels do you think actually fall into the 'normal' catagory in terms of BMI? Do we really want these people defining for us what's best for our own bodies? 

I suppose it just astounds me how people can get really up on their high horse about how terrible it is for your body to be overweight and then look at a photoshopped image of some malnourished-waif and not even blink an eyelid.


----------



## Benja (Jan 26, 2012)

I like thin girls and if they have abs showing a little it's even better, probably the number one thing I look for besides personality.

I only hold women to the same standard I hold myself, lean all year with abs showing at times.

Women can lose belly fat just like men, it's not that hard with proper scientific knowledge of how the body operates.


----------



## Playful Proxy (Feb 6, 2012)

chip said:


> I don't see how you can speak for all men on this subject.


Thus the "just my input IMO" qualification.


----------



## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Does anyone else realize how unrealistic and silly the thread title is? xD Perfectly..lols.


----------



## Symphi (Oct 16, 2011)

Going all the way back to the OP...

Yeah, I'm female. ;D In my artistic/aesthetic opinion, being _proportional and healthy_ is more important than "flat" or "a little pooch" on the abs. I can just about point out something beautiful about anyone's body. And, above all, personality is always the most important part of a person in my humble opinion.

In my personal life, I find myself utterly disgusting a good 50% of the time, admittedly quite irrationally. I have a slight tummy pooch unless I don't eat well/at all for a couple of days, my legs aren't fantastic for anything other than walking, and my butt isn't "Photoshopped smooth." And let's not even go into the stretch marks, cellulite, scars, and *gasp* occasional acne.

And has anyone mentioned that those online BMI calculators are generally flawed? I have a dense bone structure, so I weight heavier than my pant size/visual weight imply. My BMI sits around 23.3, yet in order to lose any more weight to get it closer to mid-range I would literally never be able to eat and would have to live at a gym.


----------



## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

"Rock hard abs" are attractive, yes. But it's not like I have a "rock hard abs" fetish; I mean it's not a requirement. "Rock hard abs" can be trumped so long as a girl is bubbly, friendly, smiley, confident, flirtatious and DTF. All things considered, I'd prefer "rock hard abs" to compliment this as well but you can't win 'em all, I guess. Two out of the seven is good enough for me (Note: DTF is non-negotiable, though).

I don't know--I never subscribed to society's ideals of well, anything. I used to be a very big guy and assclowns would give me crap about it. I broke out of my stoic character to physically intimidate them into backing down (which they always did). Being large (and in charge) has its perks, let me tell you.

But all in all: If being less than "model perfect" lowers your self-esteem to the point where you'd starve yourself or throw up your steak dinner--do yourself a favor by growing up and getting over it.


----------



## wisdom (Dec 31, 2008)

Rock hard abs on a woman? No thanks.

I think Britney Spears had ideal female abs about 10 years ago.
Pic Tube: Britney Spears Abs

A few years ago, she looked a lot worse abdominally, but that wasn't extreme protusion - the widening (lack of a waist) was at least as bad. Anyway, if a woman has a stomach like that and doesn't 'flaunt' it, then it probably isn't much of a problem. A large stomach (a la obesity) on a woman or a man - simply looks bad to most people.


----------



## Armed Politicker (Oct 6, 2010)

Muscular. I'm an exercise nut, can't help it. My female ideals growing up were physically fit women as well, so Freud's with me on this one. I'm a conceptual man, not a visual man - looking flat, or healthy, or anything, comes far behind it actually _being_ healthy. Wanting a flat stomach or a lean body is ridiculous, you should aim to have a fit body, and a fit stomach.


----------



## ModelandActress (Sep 13, 2011)

I have my abs. I have a flat stomach, but I want super-toned abs.


----------



## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

wisdom said:


> Rock hard abs on a woman? No thanks.
> 
> I think Britney Spears had ideal female abs about 10 years ago.
> Pic Tube: Britney Spears Abs
> ...


Oh, man...a young Britney Spears. Perfect back in the day. Now?
Not so much.

And contrary to what you may believe, "rock hard abs" can look astonishing on a woman.
Example:






A bit of a horseface, but nobody is perfect.


----------



## Autumn Raven (Jun 28, 2011)

Persephone said:


> fat around the lower belly


 I happen to find this extremely alluring. I absolutely love a full figured female.
Yum yum yum.

But, of course, this is not mandatory. I admire the female form, small or otherwise.


----------

