# Initial judgement of computer programmers.



## AJ2011 (Jun 2, 2011)

This is the ranked hierarchy I would see in the computer world:

1. Scientist
- doesn't bother to put computer programming in the name
- focused on the skills necessary to complete the job
- can architect a solution to a general problem

2. Hacker
- doesn't bother identify as a programmer
- focused on developing practical, quick, efficient solutions to wide range of problems
- problem-solver & expert debugger

3. Computer scientist
- capable of using mathematics to derive theoretically efficient solutions
- has not necessarily translated theory into efficient practice like the hacker

4. Computer programmer
- given specifications, they will implement the code in the most mundane way possible
- 8 to 5 career people

5. Computer engineer
- given specifications, they will TRY to implement the code
- wildcard ability


Some scientists and hackers have mad programming skills, but they only advertise the projects they've completed, the challenges they faced, and the time to completion.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

programming


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## Pete The Lich (May 16, 2011)

may or may not be me :crazy:









Programmers practically decide how the world functions
Think about all the machines that we take for granted in our daily lives
Those programs were written by someone


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

Zippity Boppity Doop Dap said:


> lt's a tough decision to make. People say things are OK now, some people say they will be good in the future and other experts say CS degrees are going to be worthless(and sort of argue that they already are, without saying it outright).
> 
> But in any case the programmers who have some experience will be OK, it's getting your foot in the door that looks like it's going to be an issue for some.


What experts are saying this? We live in a time where we have computers in every single electronic device we own, and a CS degree is going to become worthless or already is worthless?


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> What experts are saying this? We live in a time where we have computers in every single electronic device we own, and a CS degree is going to become worthless or already is worthless?


''worthless''in this industry could still earn you more than many people.

But be aware that 14 year old boys in India can and do take entry level programming jobs for next to nothing.Is alll l'm saying lol.

it's not a step up from working at Mcd's mbut it isnt what it was in 1997.


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## JoanCrawford (Sep 27, 2012)

cdesewell said:


> Pretty much what it says in the title, if a guy tells you he is a computer programmer, he may call it software development or software engineering. What stereotypes/assumptions do you make about him ?


I would immediately become at ease, because I know that nerdy types (excuse the stereotype) are a lot less obnoxious than, say, some macho douche who works at the Gym as a personal trainer. Also, for some reason, I feel like this job would take someone very capable and smart, which in turn means you probably don't hold much judgement towards me (I really like people who are accepting). Then, if my initial thoughts were correct, and you are a nice person, I would size you up and probably develop some kind of school-girl crush on you.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

Zippity Boppity Doop Dap said:


> ''worthless''in this industry could still earn you more than many people.
> 
> But be aware that 14 year old boys in India can and do take entry level programming jobs for next to nothing.Is alll l'm saying lol.
> 
> it's not a step up from working at Mcd's mbut it isnt what it was in 1997.


It's still a stupid assertion that assumes that all computer science is is programming. You still haven't answered my question as to whom these experts are. You talk as though someone who learned to program in school has the same level of understanding of computation as someone who has taken 4 years of the actual science of computing. There are a lot of instances where simply knowing how to program isn't enough. As the number of those problems increase and the number of computer science graduates remains static, it's unreasonable to state that it is a worthless degree.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> It's still a stupid assertion that assumes that all computer science is is programming. You still haven't answered my question as to whom these experts are. You talk as though someone who learned to program in school has the same level of understanding of computation as someone who has taken 4 years of the actual science of computing. There are a lot of instances where simply knowing how to program isn't enough. As the number of those problems increase and the number of computer science graduates remains static, it's unreasonable to state that it is a worthless degree.


since you only chose to read part of my post l thought l would return the favor...it's also not incorrect to assume that most people with a BS in CS(which is not CIS or IT) will start out as entry level programmers of some sort.

Anyway,it's not really classified information,007.

l gave you the benefit of the doubt because you could have just been curious.

Now that l see you're that a mean and annoying person, l kindly refer you to...gee...l don't know:all of the internet or the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Good day


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

Zippity Boppity Doop Dap said:


> since you only chose to read part of my post l thought l would return the favor...it's also not incorrect to assume that most people with a BS in CS will start out as entry level programmers of some sort.
> 
> Anyway,it's not really classified information,007.
> 
> ...


No, I read your whole post. It's the antecedent that I have a problem with. It's essentially the same argument as saying that some 3rd graders hate mashed potatoes, some 3rd graders have no preference for or against mashed potatoes, and some 3rd graders like mashed potatoes. I am willing to state that with absolute certainty because the probability that the previous statement isn't true is extremely small. What is more relevant is which group(s) has/have the majority of individuals and whether or not we want 3rd graders eating mashed potatoes. Likewise, are there more experts predicting that a CS degree is/will be worthless or are there more saying it will still be very valuable? What is their reasoning? 

And all that I wanted was a source, but I will link what I find here for anyone who's actually interested.

Job Market Sucks? Not for Techies - US News and World Report
The Future of the Programmer Jobs Market
What Does The Job Market For .Net Developers Look Like?
The Job Market Outlook for Computer Programmers | IT Career Coaching & Training (read the first line on this one)
The Hardest Job To Fill In 2012? A Look At The Supply of Web Developers « EMSI | Economic Modeling Specialists Intl. web development in high demand
The Advantages of Being a Computer Programmer | Chron.com
The Strong Job Market Outlook for Computer Programmers - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com

I didn't choose discriminately. I just googled and found relevant sources. I stopped because all of them, in one way or another, assert that software development and/or programming jobs are in high demand and/or growing even though the economy is flat. The reality is that the demand for software vs. the number of people required to fill development positions in the effort to fulfill that goal makes it impossible to keep up with demand without outsourcing. A lot of programming involves shitwork that really is the coding equivalent of flipping burgers and not worth $50,000+ a year plus benefits to pay for. Those people are better utilized solving the really tough and interesting problems that keep being created. We really aren't losing jobs in the west. They're still being created by the boatload. It's just not economical under the old model.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

*And all that I wanted was a source, but I will link what I find here for anyone who's actually interested.*

LOL and yet you somehow neglected to locate or use keywords that might yield contradictory information 

Why do you think there is so much information in existence _INSISTING_ that a CS degree is still an excellent investment if there was no concern that it isn't?

Also don't be fooled by sftware Developer/Engineer job stats. Those people generally have more experience or take a wider variety of courses like what's offered in a CIS degree in the case .Not the very basic CS degree that l was talking about and/or not entry level job seekers.

My keyboard is nearly broken so lm not gonna reply to this at length.

But_ the official source_ that you so desperately require can be located on the BLS website,all l ever said was that*entry level programming* is in danger and many a qualified individual w/o an axe to grind will tell you the same thing.

what is youe angle anyway?lf you're a CS grad with a job then congrats.

it seems like you've mostly taken offense totheword ''worthless''. whatever, l know it's a touchys ubject. 

Personally if my degree cost upwards of 30-40K and there was sizable doubt that l would find employment afterward l think l would consider my degree worthless.lt's the case too often now, l can't say l might not face the same thing with my IT degree.

But it obviously doesn't mean no CS grad will ever find a job EVAR.Jesus christ lol.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

Zippity Boppity Doop Dap said:


> *And all that I wanted was a source, but I will link what I find here for anyone who's actually interested.*
> 
> LOL and yet you somehow neglected to locate or use keywords that might yield contradictory information
> 
> ...


I searched "Programming Job Market". I am a CS major about to graduate, and the biggest hurdle I have seen so far are entry level positions that require 10+ years experience in an enterprise environment that nobody will take. Eventually they will figure out that they either need to pay more for that pedigree or reduce the job qualifications. It gets to a point where corporations will be losing money simply because the positions they want filled aren't being filled. At that point they will realize that the first year of inefficiency of a college grad won't cost them as much as simply not producing. In the meantime, there are internships, coops, lab assistant positions, TA positions, web development on the side, etc. to get the experience that corporations are looking for. I made more than the average teacher fresh out of college as an undergraduate in an internship. Web developers can do contract work for a lot of money. Coops are essentially part-time hourly positions that pay well. Corporations actually open offices in college towns for this reason. Hell, write an iPhone app and sell it. There are a million different ways to get the experience that corporations are looking for. Even without the degree and just 2-3 years of education, there is still more value for that degree than many others.

Quite simply, not hiring people out of college isn't feasible in the short-term. Eventually, there are no bodies to fill the 2 years experience positions, and demand for software keeps growing. What you're describing is an effect of a stupid people sitting with their thumbs up their asses thinking that there are people who have been doing something for 2+ years looking for a new job just so that they can be low man on the totem pole again with the same salary. In the meantime, the rest of us still have options.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> I searched "Programming Job Market". I am a CS major about to graduate, and the biggest hurdle I have seen so far are entry level positions that require 10+ years experience in an enterprise environment that nobody will take. Eventually they will figure out that they either need to pay more for that pedigree or reduce the job qualifications. It gets to a point where corporations will be losing money simply because the positions they want filled aren't being filled. At that point they will realize that the first year of inefficiency of a college grad won't cost them as much as simply not producing. In the meantime, there are internships, coops, lab assistant positions, TA positions, web development on the side, etc. to get the experience that corporations are looking for. I made more than the average teacher fresh out of college as an undergraduate in an internship. Web developers can do contract work for a lot of money. Coops are essentially part-time hourly positions that pay well. Corporations actually open offices in college towns for this reason. Hell, write an iPhone app and sell it. There are a million different ways to get the experience that corporations are looking for. Even without the degree and just 2-3 years of education, there is still more value for that degree than many others.
> 
> Quite simply, not hiring people out of college isn't feasible in the short-term. Eventually, there are no bodies to fill the 2 years experience positions, and demand for software keeps growing. What you're describing is an effect of a stupid people sitting with their thumbs up their asses thinking that there are people who have been doing something for 2+ years looking for a new job just so that they can be low man on the totem pole again with the same salary. In the meantime, the rest of us still have options.


Ok.Well that's pretty much my point then. lf l had already committed to the degree l would stick with it, just not something l would choose to go into at this time for thereasons you first described.

But l think that you're right about the situation improving eventually. l'm not someone who would drop money on an education in hopes of things improving ''eventually'' so that is pretty much what l mean when l say worthless but didn't mean to start shit with you.

Anyway it's still a field that you can make the most money in once you do find work and probably always will be.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

Zippity Boppity Doop Dap said:


> Ok.Well that's pretty much my point then. lf l had already committed to the degree l would stick with it, just not something l would choose to go into at this time for thereasons you first described.
> 
> But l think that you're right about the situation improving eventually. l'm not someone who would drop money on an education in hopes of things improving ''eventually'' so that is pretty much what l mean when l say worthless but didn't mean to start shit with you.
> 
> Anyway it's still a field that you can make the most money in once you do find work and probably always will be.


Well the problem isn't that there is no work. The problem is that there is no job security right out of school. There is always work for all ranges of expertise. All of them pay well for the level of expertise. There's simply high demand all over the place.

It's also not that we hope that it will or that it probably will improve. It has to improve. It is imperative that it improves. I would still recommend people to go into computer science because once you finally do break in, the prospects are still even more lucrative.


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## Optimouse (Nov 8, 2012)

I was always curious how one can start in a programming job just with a CS degree. The problem is, me who started coding as a hobby from a young age and persued this for years to come, even with just a maths degree, I am quite more experienced to write programs and think of algorithms than many CS students I meet, at least in my country. I don't know if outside things are different, if in order to get your degree you really have to learn your stuff, but I had always the impression that if you don't love programming and don't do it alone at home then no degrees will make you profecient. Most have the mentality that of course they won't be able to write real programs with the degree but they will learn the art in their first job. Though usually the industry wants people who already has the experience and that seems strange, because how the hell is someone supposed to get into it if experience is already required? But how to get experience if you can't get into it? A vicious circle. Of course sometimes one gets lucky, and maybe a company gets graduates without experience (but you still need to know your shit), but so far the best thing to do is start your own project as a hobby, so that you have something to show. You know, it's even hard for me too at the moment who has some experience as a hobby programmer and some past experience, but somehow I didn't got a finite answer after some interviews, maybe it's also because I am not convincing at interviews . I can't imagine how hard it would be for someone who just got his degree and is not a good talker (I have seen the opposite, someone who doesn't know shit, because of the extroverted overconfident self, getting a good job somewhere ).


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## AJ2011 (Jun 2, 2011)

If you're willing to stretch yourself in computer science, you can get some pretty cool jobs like developing iPhone apps for the next-generation aviation networks. There are a lot of technical areas which are getting revamped, and they need smart US citizen CS majors. It would be a real good idea to do a CS internship, not just to get a leg up in the area, but to build your network.

However, if you stick to just being 8-5 computer programmer, waiting for others to tell you what to do, you will be competing with a ton of people ... globally. I saw the writing on the wall years ago when high school students were getting jobs straight after school.


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## The Nightwalker (Oct 24, 2012)

devoid said:


> Both of my parents are computer programmers. Knowing that, I tend to assume that they are: boring, self-interested, socially awkward, reclusive, stubborn and nerdy. Not proud of the stereotyping, but it's just what comes to mind.


Is that stereotype based on your parents?


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## The Proof (Aug 5, 2009)

overly complicated debater-type


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

The Nightwalker said:


> Is that stereotype based on your parents?


Yes, it is.


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## Dashing (Sep 19, 2011)

We're thinky types that get hung up on details sometimes. ^^


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## lilysocks (Nov 7, 2012)

One of my best friends is a programmer, assuming this thread accepts 'developer' and 'programmer' as more or less the same thing. I love being able to say that, like it lets me off all the hooks.

I'm a tester/QA analyst. That being so I've probably lost sight of the stereotype aeons ago through close personal exposure to the real thing. I have sometimes come home, pointed the Finger Of Doom at my kid and told him 'If you turn into a dev I'll go back in time just to drown you at birth', but he just laughs. I like them. God knows I wouldn't want to be one, but I sincerely appreciate that they're willing to do stuff that I found too nitpicky and boring to concentrate on.


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