# Why do SPs seem to have different descriptive "rules" than other types?



## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

I've done a lot of reading in order to figure out what type I am and it's still somewhat up in the air. Tests don't work for me since I can easily answer yes to both sides of so many choices, and I identify equally with Se and Ne and with Fi and Ti. I know I'm E__P but every time I choose a combination of the four functions, it doesn't seem right after a while. I have two roadblocks I come up against and am wondering what other people think of these.

The first is that every book I read and every site I visit have different descriptions of the temperaments and types, so much so that I'm clearly ESFP, ENFP or ENTP, depending on what I've read last. Many of these books or sites have been written by people known in the personality typing field and are frequently psychologists who see plenty of people in their practice. So how do we decide which description is most accurate? And what if someone only fits 50 percent of a temperament because of some oddball quirk in their personality or what life has brought out, but fits other temperaments even less?

The second is that it seems fairly common to describe SPs as being not overly interested in theories or ideas. I've never read that NTs and NFs don't have much interest in action and in fact in both literature and on forums, NTs and NFs talk about being involved in various sports or some type of movement, such as dancing or gymnastics. Since very few people score 100 percent in either N or S and some Sensing people have scored in the 50 percent range, which means they spend a significant amount of time being interested in N, why this one-sided view of SPs but not of Ns?

I'm interested because I spend 50/50 of my time being SP and NP, yet I've ruled out being an SP because I'm interested in reading, theories and meanings. Even though I spend the same amount of time in the here and now, focused on what's there, my strong interest in ideas seems to rule out SP while my interest in action and sports doesn't rule out N. I switch easily back and forth between the two ways of being and always have, and I'm equally competent (or incompetent lol) at both, though I have to say SP makes me happier. But maybe that's inherent in SP?

Does anyone have a guess as to why people's views of types can vary so much and how to deal with it, or why SPs are usually seen as more one-sided than NPs?


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## caramel_choctop (Sep 20, 2010)

*shrug* It really depends on cognitive functions, simple as that. It doesn't necessarily matter how much you use Ne or Se, it's about which comes more naturally to you, which is your knee-jerk reaction.

I've found on this forum, there are lots of Intuitives (particularly INTs), and not as many Sensors (particularly ESFs). Perhaps because there are more Ns, pains have been taken by said Ns to correct the "theories vs. sport" stereotype on the N side, but there haven't been enough Sensors to do likewise.
This is a total guess unsupported by any evidence whatsoever, but maybe many of these MBTI books have been written by Intuitives who, again, have emphasised that iNtuitives can be good at both theoretical & practical things, but for whatever reason haven't taken the same care with Sensors. 

*Again, a Sensor can be good at both, just as an Intuitive can*. People are all different.


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## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

caramel_choctop said:


> *shrug* It really depends on cognitive functions, simple as that. It doesn't necessarily matter how much you use Ne or Se, it's about which comes more naturally to you, which is your knee-jerk reaction.
> 
> I've found on this forum, there are lots of Intuitives (particularly INTs), and not as many Sensors (particularly ESFs). Perhaps because there are more Ns, pains have been taken by said Ns to correct the "theories vs. sport" stereotype on the N side, but there haven't been enough Sensors to do likewise.
> This is a total guess unsupported by any evidence whatsoever, but maybe many of these MBTI books have been written by Intuitives who, again, have emphasised that iNtuitives can be good at both theoretical & practical things, but for whatever reason haven't taken the same care with Sensors.
> ...


I'm glad to hear someone say that. I haven't been here enough to see that forum Ns are helping to clear things up.

I seem driven to experience and analyze life. That would make me an ESTP, which I'm not, since I'm not aggressive enough or a Linda Berens' In-Charge personality. I'm thinking about creating a category just for me.


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## Hastings (Jan 8, 2011)

Sarah said:


> The second is that it seems fairly common to describe SPs as being not overly interested in theories or ideas. I've never read that NTs and NFs don't have much interest in action and in fact in both literature and on forums, NTs and NFs talk about being involved in various sports or some type of movement, such as dancing or gymnastics.


I agree that sounds unfair. However, I seem to encounter descriptions which include pointers and things to consider for all types, for example for INs to mind their outer representations and not only spend time inside their heads.


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## erasinglines (Sep 1, 2010)

To be honest, I'm not sure why there's such a stereotype about sensors disliking theories. It really depends on the theory and where a person's interests are, in my opinion. I've known quite a few sensors who were actually very interested in topics that would usually be considered theoretical. And if you ask me, they do quite well in all sorts of discussions and various situations.

I suppose that's why it's difficult for me to distinguish between S and N, even when taking cognitive functions into consideration. I want to be careful about those types of stereotypes that could potentially blind me to all of the possibilities a person has to offer. And... I'll confess, I almost never even look at what type someone has put on their profile unless it's specifically mentioned or the topic of the discussion.

So, regardless of the letters or numbers, you're always you. :3


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## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

erasinglines said:


> To be honest, I'm not sure why there's such a stereotype about sensors disliking theories. It really depends on the theory and where a person's interests are, in my opinion. I've known quite a few sensors who were actually very interested in topics that would usually be considered theoretical. And if you ask me, they do quite well in all sorts of discussions and various situations.
> 
> I suppose that's why it's difficult for me to distinguish between S and N, even when taking cognitive functions into consideration. I want to be careful about those types of stereotypes that could potentially blind me to all of the possibilities a person has to offer. And... I'll confess, I almost never even look at what type someone has put on their profile unless it's specifically mentioned or the topic of the discussion.
> 
> So, regardless of the letters or numbers, you're always you. :3


I think I've been doing that, using stereotypes to help decide what type I am.

I have an ISTJ cousin whose husband left her in a particularly crazy way, and ever since she's been into reading psychology where before her reading material was mainly S related. Maybe it just takes a stronger impetus to get them into theories, as opposed to not having the interest at all.

If I had to guess about myself, I'd say I'm a weak ESFP who chooses first to have fun but who also uses N and T quite a bit, particularly in standing back and sorting out lessons learned and what's really going on with people underneath what they're trying to project. 

I have many times decided that I'm just me and that's the end of it, then I'm off on another quest to find those 4 letters.


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## caramel_choctop (Sep 20, 2010)

Sarah said:


> I'm glad to hear someone say that. I haven't been here enough to see that forum Ns are helping to clear things up.
> 
> I seem driven to experience and analyze life. That would make me an ESTP, which I'm not, since I'm not aggressive enough or a Linda Berens' In-Charge personality. I'm thinking about creating a category just for me.


Sorry, I should have been clearer; it was more like a hypothesis/guess thingo. I have no idea if that's actually happening - on this forum or otherwise - but I _assume _ that it is, just from the prevalence of Ns vs Ss here on PerC. I'm guessing the same proportion of Ns to Ss would be present on other MBTI forums like typologycentral, as well as on the Internet in general.
And that would therefore explain the more realistic portrayals of iNtuitives.

... Um, ESTPs are not necessarily 'aggressive', at least not the healthy ones. Just because you display a certain characteristic (tendency towards sadness, artistic ability, whatever) doesn't mean you're a certain MBTI type. Actually, that kind of thing is more suited to the Enneagram. MBTI depends solely on your use of cognitive functions.


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## Fizz (Nov 13, 2010)

I'm ESTP and one of the rare combatants of Sensor stereotypes. I'm highly interested in sociology and anthropology which are both riddled with theories, it's the application of the theories that matter to me. I know a bit about evolutionary theory but I'm not interested in discussing it online with a bunch of strangers. Not because I'm afraid of having my opinion changed, it's the people who bring religious arguments or moot points into the calculation that turn me off. I will discuss such topics in a better environment.

As far as sociology and other non-physical anthropology topics, I'm all for that. I have a strong interest in gender/sex in societies, culture, etc. Even how those influence how people perceive the world. That's why it's best not to talk Sensors as a one track kind of people. We're often mistaken that way online by frustrated people who don't understand MBTI. They use it in a way to discriminate those they believe are discriminating against them IRL.


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## erasinglines (Sep 1, 2010)

Sarah said:


> I think I've been doing that, using stereotypes to help decide what type I am.
> 
> I have an ISTJ cousin whose husband left her in a particularly crazy way, and ever since she's been into reading psychology where before her reading material was mainly S related. Maybe it just takes a stronger impetus to get them into theories, as opposed to not having the interest at all.
> 
> ...


If it's between ESFP and ESTP, then I think the main difference is the use of Fi versus Ti. There's a good article on the forums about the difference here that might help. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd....... almost lean towards ESTP, though I'm not really sure why. Though I'm very much aware of the possibility I could be quite mistaken. Because I could also see ESFP as being very possible as well.

And about 'theoretical' topics, I've found that different people will seek them for different reasons. I actually have a lot of sensor friends who are very interested in all sorts of topics and will engage at length in all kinds of theoretical discussions. One of them engages in linguistics as a hobby, particularly interested in historical linguistics. And my field I'm interested in is phonology and applied linguistics (teaching languages). The main differences about us that I could say is not necessarily the topics of discussion, but more the process of how we interact within the discussion. And I always consider it enlightening _because_ of our different thought processes.


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## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

Interesting posts, which are definitely tearing down my stereotyping of S's.

Today I checked a book out from the library called "Building Blocks of Personality Type," by Leona Haas and Mark Hunziker. Their method of explaining the 8 functions is easier for me to understand than other descriptions I've read. I've only had time to skim but it puts to rest the Ne vs. Se struggle I've been undergoing - I'm definitely Se, assuming the book's information is accurate, and I think it might be because things have been falling into place for me since getting the book and reading the posts on this thread.

Now I'm trying to decide if I'm ESTP or ESFP. If I'm ESFP, I've been strongly pushed into T, NT in fact, for much of my life, so I've been using Fi and Te almost equally, bouncing between the two depending on the situation. That would explain why not just I but others are sometimes confused as to my main orientation - fun-loving/people oriented or logical/lets get the task done. If I'm ESTP, that would more directly explain my logical/analyzing nature via Ti. I have looked at the Te vs. Ti issue and it's still a little unclear to me, so partly because of Linda Berens putting ESTPs in the In-Charge category, my guess is ESFP with an extra-strong Te. But since I seem to have been stereotyping ESTPs, I'll keep that type in mind in case ESFP doesn't seem right once I've let it settle, since my life hasn't been particularly set up to grow along the lines of my strengths. Looking back on my childhood, I was very sensitive and still carry some of that with me, which either indicates ESFP or that I'm again stereotyping ESTPs. So ESFP with a somewhat under-used Fi and a Te that's been trained into me and enjoyed and used for quite a while, though somewhat more for analyzing and categorizing than real-world organizing of physical things or people. I posted my picture in the Typewatch thread today, if anyone wants to check it out and guess what type I am.

Thanks for all the well-thought-out responses - they're much appreciated in helping me break down the stereotyping and clear this up. I don't seem to clearly fit into any of the 16 types, so I need to focus on functions and accept that I can have a logical, future oriented, mystical side while still preferring the physical environment as my home base. And Fizz, I'm glad you're one of the "combatants of Sensor stereotypes."  I have an IQ of 140 and can hold my own in a logic sense with my NT friends. I just prefer to have fun with and interact with the physical environment as my main interest, with logic and analyzing as well as a future orientation being close behind.

Edit: Dominant/Tertiary Loops http://forums.infjs.com/showthread.php?t=14436

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I'll put my Typewatch thread post here also, in case anyone wants to guess if this face could be ESTP or not, or even some other type:

I'm putting my picture in a Photobucket link, in case I want to remove it later, so please don't copy the picture into any posts. Thanks!

What type do I seem to be? I usually have a better smile than that but my boyfriend wanted me to smile for a picture after being tangled in trees and getting soaking wet, so I had to force the smile. 

http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss6/forumpictures29/picture-2-1.jpg


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## lman161 (Dec 1, 2010)

you are certainly an N.


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## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

lman161 said:


> you are certainly an N.


Se feels more home. My first thought is usually along the lines of "look at that," and I don't go beyond that space for a time. I don't identify as much with ENFP or ENTP, either the type or temperament. I also act much more like an SP, but not like an ESTP.

In my early 20s I ran into serious trouble and had to go outside mainstream to get help. The years'-long NT/NF path I followed has strongly changed me, to the point where I'm a free thinker but don't feel I fit in with any particular group at this point. NT's aren't fun-loving, "let's go do something" enough to be like me and NF's are more on a mission than I am, in fact both types are more on people/task oriented missions than I am, among other differences, and SP's typically aren't as much into ideas, though I fit in well in other ways. When I have to make a choice between discussing ideas or doing something physical, from horseback riding to walking in the woods, the physical activity always wins out, though the discussion of ideas is my second love. In my childhood I manifested SP more than any other temperament. I've always lived for the present, and until I came across MBTI, used to wonder why I rarely paid attention to the past or future like other people seemed to. If I was instead pushed into ESFP and out of ENTP or ENFP, it wouldn't make as much sense when taking into account what I manifested until I was in my 20s. Also, freedom and spontaneity are essential to my existence, in fact somewhat define me. It's taken me a long time to figure out my type, since I don't fit clearly enough into any type or temperament to definitively say "that's me." There's always something strongly off about the core part of the description that I don't fit. That's why I had to use functions rather than descriptions to decide who I am.

If you think I'm an N, what type would I be, and why? I won't rule out anything, but right now N doesn't make as much sense to me.


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

N's think you are an N because they don't think Sensors have much to say/think about MBTI, and that we don't think about it in depth like you have. Not all N's, I will make that clear. If you feel comfy with Se, then that is what you feel comfy with, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. 

You seem quite ESFP to me. Here is how I like to rule either out. Fi or Fe? *Fi* - More self centred, your inner world means more to you than the outside world. *Fe* - More people centred. If I do this insert thing here, how does this effect this person? Outter world means more to you than your inner thoughts. 

Though SP's are seen as rule breakers. I notice with ESTP's that I know, that they are people pleaser's. My ex was one, and where I didn't care much about what people thought about me, if it made them happy (not to the extreme, it's not that I don't give a damn about people), it's just if I feel that way, or that is what I want to do, then I will do it, screw it. But he thought more about how people viewed him, and that wouldn't please this or that person if he did that/this.


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## Moss Icon (Mar 29, 2011)

Just remember they're meant to be preferences, not hard and fast absolutes. Everyone, however slightly, will have a preference for one over the other, just as I like both vanilla and chocolate ice-cream but 'prefer' chocolate.


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## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

Thanks to firedell and Moss Icon for responding. I was going to answer back in depth but the post got so long and involved that I'm taking pity on people and not posting it.  I did realize that my life is all about experiences and relationships and as a secondary bonus, gaining knowledge and wisdom. I still believe I'm likely Fi since I choose the experiences and relationships according to my values. If I analyze, it's soon afterwards to understand and distill any info I can in order to help myself and potentially others. Also, while the experience is going on I don't get much into possibilities. If I do think about meaning and possibilities, it's after the experience has ended, particularly if someone is around to discuss the experience with.

I had a good friend who was ESTP and he also cared more than I did, in a people-pleasing sense, about how he was perceived by the group.


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## Neon Knight (Aug 11, 2010)

Sarah said:


> So ESFP with a somewhat under-used Fi and a Te that's been trained into me and enjoyed and used for quite a while, though somewhat *more for analyzing and categorizing than real-world organizing of physical things or people.*


I'm just zeroing on this part because I was wondering why you felt you had an underused Fi and great Te? If I were to guess just by this statement I bolded, I'd say more than likely you are a Ti user. I would then ask if you are sure you're an Se user over Ne. Forget those tests that are S vs N and F vs T since even I get somewhere in the middle for S vs N and I am no iNtuitive by a long shot. If you go by interests and appearances I am no ESFP, but functionally I am 100%. I don't know how old you are but it takes a while for the tertiary to really show itself, at least it did for me and it's kind of dominating my auxiliary though I do think it's in a positive way, more balancing of my Fi so it kind of appears to myself and feels like Ti at times but when really looking deeply and being mindful of my decision-making process I've determined there's no way it's Ti. Hopefully that makes sense.

There are a few anti-stereotyping Sensors around. Just not enough apparently yet, either that OR WE JUST HAVE TO BE LOUDER!!


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## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

*pulls out earplugs* 

I live like an SP with my need for excitement and change and because I seem to experience the moment purely and in the present. I'm like an ESFP because of my love of fun and light-heartedness and because I follow my values with regard to my life. I analyze like an NT. I have many of the beliefs of an NF but don't follow through with them, have never felt that's my home base, and don't fit with anyone's ideas of an NF temperament, no matter the author. I'm not an SJ. Whew, something clear.


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## lman161 (Dec 1, 2010)

ENTP and especially ENFP are can be extremely fun-loving types as well. ENFPs in particular are notorious for desiring change. But here's my impression of SPs in general, and why I feel like it may not be you: SPs don't worry too much about the labels, about what it's called, why it's called that and how to tell the difference. They are more interested in being, doing, seeing, experiencing. You seem pretty concerned with those things, which feels more N to me. But just my opinion.


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## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

lman161 said:


> ENTP and especially ENFP are can be extremely fun-loving types as well. ENFPs in particular are notorious for desiring change. But here's my impression of SPs in general, and why I feel like it may not be you: SPs don't worry too much about the labels, about what it's called, why it's called that and how to tell the difference. They are more interested in being, doing, seeing, experiencing. *You seem pretty concerned with those things, which feels more N to me.* But just my opinion.


Yes, well, I've been noticing that too, and it *is* a problem. If I was just a little more of an airhead, I'd fit perfectly into SP. j/k  I'd love to be an SP and have known many intelligent ones, but darn, every type I think I am, there are large areas I just don't fit. Maybe SP is something I've taken on in order to deal with my life -- it's kind of hard to know by this time. I'm getting desperate enough to think that I'm an Elemental (not sun sign) Air which equates to NT by many authors, so that's what I must be.  I've been around a lot of ENFPs in my life and I always feel like I'm on the outside looking in, as if our basic motivations are so different that I belong elsewhere than hanging out with them, though our intellectual interests are very similar. I do feel like I'm "home" to a certain extent when I'm around NTs who stand back a little and analyze everything, but I don't fit with them when it comes to overall traits or interests.

You have a good point with your fun-loving comment and that I have a need to delve more deeply into many odd subjects than SPs seem to on the average. I have a huge curiosity and am always asking "why?" about things. I feel SP in so many ways, but maybe if these 3 types are a pie chart, I'd be right in the middle with all my traits but microscopically on the, say, ENTP side. I do seem to be doing the Se function often, but maybe I have a misunderstanding about Ne and I am actually delving deeper or in odd directions without realizing what it is.

Do ENFPs seem to be on some kind of mission to help people or save the world? Because I'm not, and though those issues have an importance to me, I'm more self centered than that, and what I want to do comes first while helping others and being less self centered is something I've had to work on. I finally got to the part of the "Building Blocks of Personality" book about Ti and Fi, and I do sound, expecially in the "Gifts" section, just slightly more Ti than Fi. But when it's that close, how do you know which you are? I spend more time with Ti, so do I go by that, or by some strong, unshakeable values I have? Also, I harmonize because of my upbringing and in order to have things run more smoothly. It's hard to tease all these things apart. Maybe with a different upbringing and in my early 20s, I'd have known better the MBTI type I was born as, which I do seem driven to know.


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

SP's are very hard to type, we are like sponges. We adsorb too much around us, that is hard to determine our own type. I know a lot of ENFP's so I can appear quite EXFP like. 

Have you taken the cognitive function test?


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## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

That's a good point, and I do something like that. I'm either being a sponge or I'm so curious about so many things that I will take on other people's interests for a time to see what it's like, though I do have my own strong interests.

The cognitive function tests I've taken usually end up Ne, Se, Ti, but I always feel those tests don't ask the right questions to get at who I am, particularly with their Se questions. But maybe the Se questions are good and I'm an Ne doing Se for fun and life relief.


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## r00bic0n (Apr 27, 2011)

Sarah said:


> I'm either being a sponge or I'm so curious about so many things that I will take on other people's interests for a time to see what it's like.


That sounds _very _ENFP! ENFPs can be serious, thoughtful, playful, reckless, considered, intellectual all in one bundle, depending on the time of day and on their mood...having read your initial post I thought ENTP, but it sounds like maybe ENFP upon further consideration.

Think back to when you were a child (pre adolescence) and answer the questions from that age's perspective...usually that's the most accurate way of doing it. If you were a (perhaps overly) sensitive, thoughtful, friendly, caring child (plus a _lot _of crying and possibly anger if you're a strong F) with a lot of energy, it could be that you are an ENFP.


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## Tobias Andre Andersen (Jun 18, 2011)

Fizz said:


> I know a bit about evolutionary theory but I'm not interested in discussing it online with a bunch of strangers. Not because I'm afraid of having my opinion changed, it's the people who bring religious arguments or moot points into the calculation that turn me off. I will discuss such topics in a better environment.


I absolutely agree with this one  Belief ruins the science.


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## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

Thanks, r00bic0n. I was a very sensitive and emotional child, which sounds like F, and I'm more interested in living things than, for example, business or technology. But what does it mean that given a choice of more directly helping or of objectively analyzing, as in seeing how and why people work the way they do, I'd always choose analyzing because it's more enjoyable and I'm better at it? Can that be F, or ENFP? I seem driven to understand people, but not as much to help them except as a side effect of my knowledge. Also, people sometimes seek me out because of my objective, logical manner of sorting things out.

I switch back and forth between being very fun loving -- chasing after fun and interesting experiences which include people, nature, and enjoyable physical movement -- and being analytical, and those are the two main aspects of my personality.


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## Neon Knight (Aug 11, 2010)

Ok let's try this from a different angle, what are your most stressful moments like when you feel a total loss of control? Did you say you were in your early 20s or just referring to when you were in your early 20s? I'll reserve my judgement for later


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## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

I'm in my mid-30s, and my most stressful moments are when someone or something has control over me. In my personal life in particular, I feel a strong need to be free to pursue whatever I want and to not follow society's unspoken rules. I don't seem to have many of the issues that ENFPs have, though, such as watching to make sure I'm being authentic -- that's just not an issue, as throughout MBTI books and websites I've read, I don't fit into many of ENFP's inner issues. I also feel more aggressive and uncaring than a typical F and less so than a typical T. If I post on NF forums, I just don't care as much about their issues and I don't feel as "nice" inside, and on NT forums I'm too nice and caring.


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## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

This is from MBTI Step II:

Thinking vs. Feeling
Logical vs. Empathetic
Reasonable vs. Compassionate
Questioning vs. Accommodating
Critical vs. Accepting
Tough vs. Tender

When it comes to people, I'm more on the Thinking side. I've always enjoyed watching people and trying to figure out who they are and what they're doing, as well as sharing ideas and having fun with them. I have to care a lot about someone to break through and use Feeling. With most of the rest of the planet, I use F. It's like I'm so driven to learn about people that there's not as much room for the Feeling side, since I'm always analyzing. It's not that I don't trust people, since I'm forever blurting out anything and everything about myself and will throw myself into all manner of relationships without much regard for how it will turn out. It's just that I don't have an F orientation to people, though I am driven by love for so much else -- being in a lightning storm, watching a snake slither past, scenery, light, being around horses, playing with kittens and puppies for hours, etc. I think part of the reason, if I'm an N, I don't want to say I'm an ENFP is that people will have certain expectations of me that I can't/won't fulfill. When authors discuss ENFP, it's always with regard to people, so it has left me wondering if I'm ENTP instead, in my moments that I think I might be N.

So does it sound as if I could be an ENFP, or am I too analytical overall? Do I tell people that I'm a Logical Questioning Critical ENFP so they understand where I'm coming from with regard to them? ;D


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## r00bic0n (Apr 27, 2011)

Sarah said:


> my most stressful moments are when someone or something has control over me. In my personal life in particular, I feel a strong need to be free to pursue whatever I want and to not follow society's unspoken rules.


This is very ENFP - hates being controlled, needs freedom and space, often buck trends and doesn't want to do something just because everyone else does - there has to be a reason. This makes ENFPs non-conformist.



Sarah said:


> I also feel more aggressive and uncaring than a typical F


Aggressive would suggest F. F means emotion - not just love and empathy, but anger too! As for uncaring, as mentioned above, a violation of Fi can lead to very "cold" behaviour from an F.

I would lean towards ENFP, funnily enough, because of this. F is not necessarily just feeling as in warm and fuzzy emotions. It's about personal (moral - Fi) or shared (ethical - Fe) social values and "humanistic" rules.
If you are ENFP, your F is auxiliary Fi, which is personal values. This means you can be incredibly emotionally _detached_ with someone if they repeatedly infringe on values that are important. And in this scenario, you can also be _very _aggressive.
An ENTP would have F as tertiary Fe, which is more about fitting into group dynamics, making sure your behaviour doesn't hurt or offend, picking up on what is socially appropriate and letting that guide you. Being very in touch with others' feelings. (Fi does this too, however while Fe instinctively senses others' emotions, Fi says "if I acted like that, or looked like that, what would it mean I was feeling?" which is more of a deductive conclusion than an immediate impression)
So think about how you use your F - Fi or Fe?



Sarah said:


> When it comes to people, I'm way more on the Thinking side. I've always enjoyed watching people and trying to figure out who they are and what they're doing, as well as sharing ideas and having fun with them.


Both ENTP and ENFP are very analytical. I as an ENFP overthink and analyse _everything_. Especially humans for me lol. It's sounding like the analysis is Fi for you. 



Sarah said:


> I'm forever blurting out anything and everything about myself and will throw myself into all manner of relationships without much regard for how it will turn out.


Very ENFP. ENTPs tend to be more reserved.



Sarah said:


> I don't want to say I'm an ENFP is that people will have certain expectations of me that I can't/won't fulfill.


ENFPs come in all shapes and sizes, just like any MBTI type. Remember, it's not a box, it's how you approach the world in basic terms - in terms of cognitive functions. From those foundations, there are infinite possibilities. The type descriptions are simply guidelines - they are exaggerated, generic stereotypes (not a diss - that's how I actually decided for definite I was ENFP - after a previous mistype based on a simplistic test) which give you an idea of what the general stereotype is for a given type.
And as for expectations - anyone who judges you based on your type is foolish. People are people - not types. Typing is just an interesting way of understanding how yours and others' minds approach things differently. It's not an equation that equals who you are! 



Sarah said:


> So does it sound as if I could be an ENFP, or am I too analytical overall? Do I tell people that I'm a Logical Questioning Critical Tough ENFP so they understand where I'm coming from with regard to them? ;D


You do sound like a mature ENFP to me. Remember, different functions develop at different stages in your life. I would call myself rational, theoretical, philosophical, concerned, opinionated and curious at the same time as carefree, funloving, downright silly, emotional and idealistic all at the same time.
But at the end of the day, I'm just _me_ - if you want people to understand you, the MBTI is just a theoretical starting point. 

Good luck!


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## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

That was *very* helpful, r00bic0n -- thanks! This is completely me: "...rational, theoretical, philosophical, concerned, opinionated and curious at the same time as carefree, funloving, downright silly, emotional and idealistic all at the same time."

The biggest reason I've had doubts about ESFP is that I'm considered eccentric in my beliefs and how I live my life. I make up my own rules as to how I should be rather than following a societal pre-set life plan and belief system. That likely rules out Fe as tertiary.

"Fi says 'if I acted like that, or looked like that, what would it mean I was feeling?'" That was part of the long post I decided not to inflict on people, lol. I've been told one of my strongest gifts is understanding people's motivations and what's underneath what appears to be going on. That's exactly how I do it, and since I've been through so many relationships and had so many experiences and haven't pulled back from much with regard to people and even nature out of worry or fear, I have a large pool of "what would it mean I was feeling" to draw upon.

From early in my childhood I've been hooked on almost all aspects of nature. Since people, on the whole, don't seem to mind overly that they're destroying nature at a rapid pace (including me at times) -- and I don't mean to get into a discussion on this right now, or how asteroids/volcanoes/etc. destroy even more, lol -- I've thrown in my emotional lot more with plants and animals, partly because they're the underdogs and need people who care. But I think people are more interesting and complex than nature so I end up having my heart with nature and my head/intellectual side with people. I can be more myself with my strong connection with and deep love of nature while also having a strong intellectual study with regard to people, though it frequently pulls me in two directions and I haven't been able to integrate the two sides. Also, and this gets into a confusing area for me with regard to T vs F, I value self knowledge and honesty and when people are illogical because they say they're one way and then act a different way while not admitting that's going on, it upsets me and alienates me from people. I also understand males and the way they think much more than I understand females, so that feels more like T to me. Maybe it's what I said earlier in this thread, that I ended up off and on in a dom-tert loop, where my Te was able to grow at the same rate as my Fi, and I still frequently spend more time in T than F.

So now it's sounding like I'm ENFP with regard to nature and T with regard to people, and since I feel more myself when I experience nature, though analyzing is also an important part of who I am, I think I must be a somewhat odd ENFP. Or is that redundant?


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## caramel_choctop (Sep 20, 2010)

Sarah said:


> The biggest reason I've had doubts about ESFP is that I'm considered eccentric in my beliefs and how I live my life. I make up my own rules as to how I should be rather than following a societal pre-set life plan and belief system. That likely rules out Fe as tertiary.
> 
> So now it's sounding like I'm ENFP with regard to nature and T with regard to people, and since I feel more myself when I experience nature, though analyzing is also an important part of who I am, I think I must be a somewhat odd ENFP. Or is that redundant?


I'm assuming you mean ES*T*P, not ESFP? ESFP doesn't have tert Fe. 

What you're saying sounds very Fi. Fe will take beliefs from the systems around it. That doesn't mean, of course, that Fe users will just mindlessly swallow every single thing they've ever been taught. But Fi users are more likely to go off and follow rules which *they themselves have determined to be appropriate*. I emphasise that Fe users are equally capable of having differing opinions from their society, but I'm not entirely familiar with Fe, so I'm not sure how a healthy Fe user would think of that.

You cannot be "T with regard to x" and "F with regard to y". It doesn't work that way. Your dominant (and aux, to a lesser degree) will affect the way you view the world; I've heard it described as a lens. You can't just flick between, say, Ti and Fi.
A Feeler can be analytical, just as a Thinker can have values. The two aren't mutually exclusive.


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## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

caramel_choctop said:


> I'm assuming you mean ES*T*P, not ESFP? ESFP doesn't have tert Fe.


I was answering r00bic0n's 1:59 p.m. post where she said, "An ENTP would have F as tertiary Fe, which is more about fitting into group dynamics, making sure your behaviour doesn't hurt or offend...." :tongue: :wink:




caramel_choctop said:


> You cannot be "T with regard to x" and "F with regard to y". It doesn't work that way. Your dominant (and aux, to a lesser degree) will affect the way you view the world; I've heard it described as a lens. You can't just flick between, say, Ti and Fi.


Are you trying to complicate things for me? lol Well darn, I didn't realize, so thanks for saying something. I thought people *could* switch between functions, depending on what's going on, rather than having them pretty much all-encompassing as a way of perceiving/judging life. It seems pretty weird that I can't tell for sure which way I view life. So many aspects of my life seem to be F, including my sensitivity in childhood and even now, the fact that I look F, and that I don't seem as driven to accomplish as most E_TPs seem to be. On the T side is that I analyze *everything*, as in it's a knee-jerk reaction for me to do so. If I don't have anyone to analyze and work out with me the logic of situations and the principles involved, or at least listen to me, it's like the experience is incomplete.

I think the worst problem I have with finding my MBTI type is that whatever type I try on for size, whether it's chosen via temperament, type descriptions or functions, I always feel that I'm being put in a box that leaves out important parts of my personality. I don't feel that way with other typing methods I've used -- they free me to be myself, which is how I know I've understood myself correctly with any particular method. It's kind of frustrating, since I find Myers-Briggs to be one of the most interesting systems. I might well be an ENFP but I still don't identify with it enough to know for sure.

Thanks everyone for helping, and I'll mull this over some more. :happy:


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## erasinglines (Sep 1, 2010)

Sarah said:


> Are you trying to complicate things for me? lol Well darn, I didn't realize, so thanks for saying something. I thought people *could* switch between functions, depending on what's going on, rather than having them pretty much all-encompassing as a way of perceiving/judging life.


Cognition is complicated in it's own right; and I think that's why cognitive functions in MBTI are equally as complex. And while it seems to separate people into very specific ways of mental processing, it's actually a lot more involved than just boxes. People just make them boxes so that they're simpler to understand, if that makes sense. But because the brain uses them in different patterns and even simultaneously, it can be confusing as to understanding which ones we're using.

Basically, our cognitive functions have natural hierarchies. There's dominant, auxiliary, tertiary, and... I've heard different terms used for the fourth. The hierarchy doesn't determine which order or combination we use them in. It's just that we feel more comfortable using dominant and auxiliary functions. Tertiary and fourth functions can also be developed over time as well, as I feel yours probably is. And this is just my personal opinion, but I don't think that if a person is a dominant Fe user that Fi is _completely_ impossible for them. It just requires a lot more effort and energy.



> It seems pretty weird that I can't tell for sure which way I view life. So many aspects of my life seem to be F, including my sensitivity in childhood and even now, the fact that I look F, and that I don't seem as driven to accomplish as most E_TPs seem to be. On the T side is that I analyze *everything*, as in it's a knee-jerk reaction for me to do so. If I don't have anyone to analyze and work out with me the logic of situations and the principles involved, or at least listen to me, it's like the experience is incomplete.


Actually, I think cognitive functions might solve your T/F problems quite simply. I think that you might have well developed tertiary and fourth functions, which is why it's so difficult for you to see where your 'default' state of being is. So if you feel more in-tune with Fi, you could also have a very well developed Te. And if these functions were close together in the hierarchy, it could make sense why it's more difficult to see which one you preferred over the other. I felt this way about my own Ni and Se functions because sensory information is extremely important to me due to synesthesia. My function hierarchy is Fe Ni Se Ti. So let's look at some types with Fi and Te close together:

ESFP - Se Fi Te Ni
ENFP - Ne Fi Te Si
ISTJ - Si Te Fi Ne

And since you had said that you didn't really feel SJ, I think we can knock that one from the running. Also, this is probably why it's difficult to distinguish between whether you are ESFP or ENFP. So if this seems to fit so far, really examining the differences between Se and Ne would probably be the best way to go. Though taking a break and letting your mind breathe in some different intellectual scenery might also help too. 



> I think the worst problem I have with finding my MBTI type is that whatever type I try on for size, whether it's chosen via temperament, type descriptions or functions, I always feel that I'm being put in a box that leaves out important parts of my personality. I don't feel that way with other typing methods I've used -- they free me to be myself, which is how I know I've understood myself correctly with any particular method. It's kind of frustrating, since I find Myers-Briggs to be one of the most interesting systems. I might well be an ENFP but I still don't identify with it enough to know for sure.
> 
> Thanks everyone for helping, and I'll mull this over some more. :happy:


That's okay. I kind of feel the same way sometimes. I want to be seen as myself first rather than the four letters. But I can guarantee you, you'll always be who you are regardless of whatever four letters you choose, or even if you don't choose any at all. MBTI is a tool; no more, no less. There are all kinds of things you can do outside of your description, and no box or label is going to change that. It's why I don't buy into the stereotypes about any type with MBTI. I've always been pleasantly surprised by the fantastically dynamic nature of the people I've met regardless of their type.


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## r00bic0n (Apr 27, 2011)

Your words in bold are where I particularly identified with what you said 



Sarah said:


> I'm considered *eccentric in my beliefs* and how I live my life. I *make up my own rules* as to how I should be *rather than following a societal pre-set life plan* and belief system. T... I've been told one of my strongest gifts is *understanding people's motivations* and what's underneath what appears to be going on. That's exactly how I do it, and since I've been through so many relationships and had so many experiences and haven't pulled back from much with regard to people and even nature out of worry or fear, I have a large pool of "what would it mean I was feeling" to draw upon...*(that's your Ne and Fi working in harmony) *... From early in my childhood I've been hooked on almost all aspects of nature. ... I've thrown in my emotional lot more with plants and animals, partly because they're the *underdogs* and need people who care. But I think people are more interesting and complex than nature so I end up having my heart with nature and my head/intellectual side with people...*(same, same - more and more cynical about people as I get older...very few live up to my ideals of what humans "should" be like)*... I can be more myself with my strong connection with and deep love of nature while also having a strong intellectual study with regard to people, though it frequently pulls me in two directions and I haven't been able to integrate the two sides.... I value* self knowledge* and *honesty* and when people are illogical because they *say they're one way* and then *act a different way* while not admitting that's going on, it upsets me and alienates me from people. I also understand males and the way they think much more than I understand females *(for me, I couldn't draw a line down gender, but I don't identify at all with society's expectations of femininity...and I hate it when guys don't let me pay)* so that feels more like T to me *II think it could be Fi - personal values - as opposed to Fe - fitting in with social norms)*...so now it's sounding like I'm ENFP with regard to nature and T with regard to people *(I think the detached thing with people is very common with NFs in general, especially XNFPs because you will only give in to people who understand, respect and identify with your highly developed value system)* and since I feel more myself when I experience nature, though *analyzing is also an important part of who I am*, I think I must be a somewhat odd ENFP. Or is that redundant?


You're not an odd ENFP - I identify with pretty much 100% of what you said. There are other personality tests that measure specific intelligences, and you sound like a naturalist (means you have a high sensitivity and understanding of nature)...there are loads of other scales like musical, numerical, interpersonal intelligence - there is very little correlation between these tests and MBTI. My point is that, one ENFP can be crazily different on the surface from another - but they share the same fundamental approaches to life.


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## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

Thanks for your info, erasinglines. I agree, cognition is very confusing and takes a lot of study, which I believe most people who take simplified MBTI tests don't realize, but at least I was able to separate out the fact that I do Sensing as a learned behavior and not a natural one. I typed up something this morning to post to you then realized it was just a rehash of what I’d already said, so I deleted it and then left for the day, lol. And thanks again, r00bic0n, and I agree with your views on society's expectations of femininity. If you were here and I could see how alike or different we are, it would be helpful. I do know 2 people who are definitely ENFP, from testing and behavior, and my motives seem different than theirs and I'm more logically oriented than they are. It would be easy to say that I’m ENFP because I seem so much like one, but I analyze almost everything as a basic part of my personality and always fit with T in all the tests. But I don’t particularly fit ENTP descriptions or have their “look,” so it’s a conundrum.

These are my strengths:

I love change and the possibilities inherent in it.

I can easily think out of the box (though I’m best with idea generation when it comes to people since I’ve made of study of them for quite a while; not as good otherwise).

I’m not very moody and can be counted on to find something fun and interesting no matter what’s going on.

I take almost everything to a theoretical or philosophical level, which is so much a part of me that I wasn’t paying attention to it, and I realize it rules out ESFP.

I have a gift at seeing where logic has failed, whatever the topic.

People go to me for clear thinking, not for compassion or empathy. It’s not that I can’t do the latter, they just aren’t my main strengths and I feel a little awkward using them.

I’m able to reach insights easily.


Almost all my conversations involve physical fun, theoretical ideas, or a strong interest of mine such as where bears are hanging out. Except for a Significant Other, I’m not interested in what someone has been doing with their day or what their friends or relatives have been doing -- I want to know what they think about what they’ve been doing. So again, not ESFP, which I now realize I’ve been using for stress relief. I’m also not necessarily very good at putting people at ease, so I’d make a great psychology researcher but not a very good psychologist.

I started reading a new book today called The Way of Four, by Deborah Lipp. Skimming ahead a little, I’m obviously Air since I fit every category in this brief summary: *thoughtful, studious, witty, free, animated, lighthearted, open, open-minded, rational*. I’ve bolded what I clearly fit in the other 3 categories:

Fire: willful, passionate, intense, *spontaneous*, exciting, dominant

Water: *sensitive*, fluid, mysterious, dramatic, sensual, generous, empathic, compassionate

Earth: stable, patient, enduring, realistic, tactile, rooted, practical

If only MBTI could be that easy for me.  I can still make a case for being either ENFP or ENTP, but at least ESFP has been ruled out. I didn't mean to take over this thread to find my type, but I've just been going for it anyway.


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## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

After researching quite a bit today, for now I'll say I'm ENFP, lol. It could be that I'm using my tertiary Te a lot because there are more opportunities in my life to do so at the moment than Fi. I liked caramel_choctop's comment about viewing the world through a particular lens, and I'll be looking at that some more. If I realize I have the wrong lens, I'll come back and say something.


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