# Power



## Dyidia (May 28, 2010)

Power to me means the willingness to be vulnerable and the knowledge to know when to be so.

Hard as it might be to attain a more traditional type of power, I don't feel like that puts me in any position to gain what I want. It is just irrelevant to my agenda.

On the other hand, everything that there is to be gained (and to be lost) I feel begins and ends with the question of vulnerability. Knowledge is power, but only if one is willing to use it. That is my view.


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## Hunger (Jul 21, 2011)

*Uniqueness, lust being worshipped, applause and glory are possible side effects to being true to yourself (often welcome ones that many 4s might secretly yearn for) but it's not power. If anything, 4s find power in refusing to cater to an audience in favor of being true to themselves. * 

Yes that is true power, but we're not talking about a specific kind of power; moral-amoral, true-false, etc. We're discussing motivating factors of each types in/to power. Going against the flow comes natural to fours empowered or not. What makes 4s seek out power, what's in it for a 4?

*









The 4's sense of power is not in pleasing an audience; it's in staying true to yourself despite pressures.*

Yes it is. Bob Dylan, Kurt Cobain, Marilyn Manson, Janis Joplin all stayed true to themselves & happen to be some of the most iconic individuals of our time. It is very pleasing to an audience.

*According to Almaas, 4's default mechanism is control. The only thing you can really control is yourself. Worship, and audience, and glory and applause can all be taken away from you. 4s fear abandonment, and something is not inherent power if it can be taken away from you, and you cannot control it.*

So abandonment is the foundation, & power the roof, what is the walls? Just like a building needs to have more than a foundation to support a roof so too a 4 needs more than feelings of abandonment to support power. If you asked a powerful 4 what their reason for power was 

I'm not interested in the heart's cognitive functions & all of the gushing feels. I just want a simple answer. 

*What a 4 has that no one can take away, is her self. Know yourself and be yourself and master your self, you have all the power you need to find your passion and purpose, pursue your personal legend, and be the change you wish to see in the world. The rest - glory, applause, worship - may follow. But it won't matter if you have your self. If you are true to yourself, you will naturally be a symbol to others, but the power to do so, comes from within.*
Animal please understand that not all 4's have as much insight as you. Most I know care greatly for the applause & worship, they want to feel special & unique. They also feel very envious of those who are more special or get more applause than they. A close friend(4w3) of mine wants nothing more than to be famous, all her life she was rejected & she's out to get her vengeance. Her applause is her victory. To get close to her you need to make her feel like she matters, like she's different & unique. Not that she needs the affirmation but when she gets it she feels empowered. 

Purpose & personal legend is universal, not restricted to a type.

*Beyond that, masochism is power. Masochism is the art of shaming yourself so that no one else has the power to shame you. 4s make themselves vulnerable, but in the end, this gives them control and power because nobody else can make them vulnerable first; the 4 is in control. The masochist leaves the sadist powerless, because sadism is, in essence, the power to shame someone else.*
Yes I'm aware that 4's tend to have masochistic tendencies, but not every 4 is a masochist.


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## dfoster (Mar 8, 2010)

Flatlander said:


> I really do want to know what your idea of power is, @_Oak_. I was curious, since I consider questions indicative of one's own agenda, priorities and reasoning.
> 
> If I answer the question, I give you the potential for power over me. Power is a force that, no matter what you consider it to be, means a lot to any human being. I say 'power is being centered within my own mind, being capable of using it to understand, conquer and manipulate', and now you have a central point for getting at me you would not have before: my mind. The way to cut into my power, then, would be simple: anything to impact the mind or brain in a significant way.


Interesting that a Five considers things leaving him a loss of power, like it's a zero-sum world: anything gained from some where has to be lost from some where because there is no source that the loss can be replenished from. It's a world that doesn't connect to Source.

It's like a tree not connected to the nourishment of the ground: any broken branch will be forever lost so it's holding dearly onto any branches that it has. According to Almass, it's the specific delusion of type Five: *I am a separate entity from the rest of the universe*. This results in a state of impoverishment: *holding in* and even hoarding because they believe they get no nourishment/reimbursement from the universe. 

But of course that is a delusion because it is against nature: look around you, anything alive and thriving has to be connected to Source: an uprooted tree will soon be dead or in the process of dying: things have to flow in and out of it. A stagnated pond will soon stink up with dead fish. That's the way Creation is made: seeds/sperms are spread, planted and cultivated to grow, to prosper and propagate. They prosper because they get nourishment from the Universe. 

Look at the economy, a depression happens because people hold their money in: no flow, no investments, no growth. This goes for all talents and abilities: if people bury their talents, society will be in a state of decay.

As an Eight, I see little difference in the acquisition of power and the exercise of power: it's all the same thing: you acquire the seeds, you lose the seeds in the process of spreading them but some will fall on fertile ground and grow. You propagate yourself, you spread because you follow the law of nature. So for me to dissimate information: I'm planting seeds, I'm growing, I'm spreading. I've not become less, I've become more.

Think of a politician running for office getting a call for a big interview: of course he will accept it. He's spreading his seeds. 

Anyway, it's interesting that the TS is a Five trying to collect information from others (taking in, not giving out). But he runs into another Five who believes in the same thing so we're seeing a tug of war. The Fives of the world needs Eights (or qualities of Eights) to realize their visions. They make a perfect pair: *what flows in has to flow out* to prosper


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Oak said:


> @_Animal_,
> Limits are a head type association. All head types feel limits in some way but each respond diffirently to them. 7 & CP6 with defiance, 5 with distance & phobic 6 with cowardice/anxiety. Both 7 & 5 want more, more, more. 7 in gluttony & 5 in avarice. Compare Bradley Cooper's character(7w8) in Limitless to Walter White(5w6) in Breaking Bad. I like to think of head types being about Liberation since their motivation is fear.


Agreed. I didn't think your post was wrong in that regard - I was just expanding on it, especially because I just read @_an Absurd Man_'s typing thread so I had extra impetus to expand on type 7 in this context.



Oak said:


> I'm here to refine my understanding of how each type might behave in power or what might motivate each type to power.


Oo exciting.. I'll write up opinions about this at some point! I've thought about this a bit.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Oak said:


> Yes that is true power, but we're not talking about a specific kind of power; moral-amoral, true-false, etc. We're discussing motivating factors of each types in/to power. Going against the flow comes natural to fours empowered or not. What makes 4s seek out power, what's in it for a 4?


I have no stance on power or a person's sense of it being moral or amoral, or true or false. I just don't think a 4 thinks of 'power' that way innately. It's false, in fact, that a 4 is 'separate from the crowd' or creates a 'unique identity' - this is total bullshit that the 4 convinces themselves of, including "i'm an alien" as you have seen in my case; is that not false? It's still false and bullshit, but the mindset is "I'm separate," "I'm unique," "I don't fit in" "but _*I am me*"_ and that is where they draw their power in order to gain the things they want, which probably includes admiration.


> So abandonment is the foundation, & power the roof, what is the walls? Just like a building needs to have more than a foundation to support a roof so too a 4 needs more than feelings of abandonment to support power. If you asked a powerful 4 what their reason for power was
> 
> I'm not interested in *the heart's cognitive functions & all of the gushing feels*. I just want a simple answer.


Lol, touché.  

Sorry if my rants are too "gushy" for your taste, but being heartfelt and true to yourself is how 4s get power. roud:

The walls are the false idea "I'm unique," "I am different from everyone else,".. this is why the Holy Idea for 4's is Holy Origin, that "we all come from the same maker." The sense of 'power', whether healthy or unhealthy, comes from finding out what makes you 'You'. 



> Animal please understand that not all 4's have as much insight as you. Most I know care greatly for the applause & worship, they want to feel special & unique. They also feel very envious of those who are more special or get more applause than they. A close friend(4w3) of mine wants nothing more than to be famous, all her life she was rejected & she's out to get her vengeance. Her applause is her victory. To get close to her you need to make her feel like she matters, like she's different & unique. Not that she needs the affirmation but when she gets it she feels empowered.


Hmm I see... makes sense about your friend. (The vengeance part reminds me of an argument I read, saying Hitler was a 4, getting vengeance because his artwork was rejected.) I know other 4s too, and I was very unhealthy once myself. All I'm saying is a 4 would need to earn applause for _who they are_ (or at least their _idea_ of who they are), or they would still feel unapplauded, unappreciated; because they're being applauded for something they're _not_. Integrity of identity gives a 4 a sense of power whether true or false, good or bad, moral or amoral, healthy or unhealthy. Being liked only gives them a sense of power if they FIRST have a sense of identity or self, so they feel they are loved or applauded or accepted for who they are. Some 4s are more realistic about the implications & consequences of "being yourself" than others. 



> Purpose & personal legend is universal, not restricted to a type.


I didn't think it was restricted to a type but what I'm talking about is how 4s get there. It is through feeling like "THIS IS ME" "I am my identity" "I embody my identity" .. .



> Yes I'm aware that 4's tend to have masochistic tendencies, but not every 4 is a masochist.


Take that one up with Naranjo..

http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-f...ranjos-character-neurosis-ennea-type-4-a.html

Masochism doesn't necessarily mean you slit your wrists or ask your lover to choke you. Masochism could be making fun of yourself, berating yourself for a bad decision, feeling like you're not good enough for your SO or your social circle, or your music never lives up to the vision in your head. Anyone could be self-critical, but for a 4 that bold, naked exposition of your own flaws is a lifestyle. Whether or not you expose it to others, exposing your innards to yourself, diving into your own ugliness and weak emotions in private, is still masochism and still gives you power and a sense of "who you really are." Many 4s take their problems on themselves and don't put them on others, thus seeming strong & self-contained like the 8 stereotype, expecting nothing of anyone, simply withdrawing or using creativity to process emotions. I'm one of them. 

In essence masochism means "you shame yourself so no one else can shame you." Screaming "I'm different! I don't fit in!" in public or in private is part of this too, because you're shaming yourself for failing to be part of humanity, and using that premise to gain strength and identity and power. No one else 'has one up on you' if your awareness of your own weakness that you look straight in the face, gives you power. I envision the emotional process as a phoenix, gathering more and more flames until it explodes and is reborn, fresh and new. Nothing is hidden, buried, obscured; everything is fully faced. The 'weak' 'pathetic' stereotype is unwarranted. 4s can be whiny, petty little drama queens, but they can also be among the strongest, toughest, boldest and truest people out there and can even be mistaken for 8s.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Oak said:


> * What does power mean to Enneagram 5?*
> Legacy & Empire. Omniscience & Limitlessness. All knowing, all influencing, limitlessness. More, more, more. A face on the totem pole, a name in history, etc.
> 
> 5s want of power is seated in their defiance of the known, the limits, the borders. The soul who ever searches into the unknown realises knowing the unknown is power over those who don't. 2+2=4 & thus 5 intergr8s.


Power is knowledge - the ability to understand both yourself and the world around you; so, you can function effectively in it.


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## J Squirrel (Jun 2, 2012)

RobynC said:


> So in a way 5's are sneaker than 8's...


:ninja:


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Flatlander said:


> Also I'd offer as a less general criticism, that all the interpretations you listed there as objective appear to be socially-oriented - and a lot of people simply are not so.


This is a good point. How types get power will also pertain to their instinctual stacking.

I'll expand on power using type 4 just for kicks.

*Sp 4's* get power through the idea that they 'endure suffering' and don't complain about it. As Naranjo phrases it, "See how much I suffer, do you love me now?" They envy the financial security of others, the acquisitions of others, the pursuits of others. This is like listening to your favorite musician and saying "Sigh, I envy him because I work just as hard and he has more money & success & luxuries" instead of getting into the music. They compare their skills, image and opportunities with those of others. Power comes from enduring more than others endure, being capable of enduring suffering, surviving difficult situations, in some cases having a self-image of a martyr. Off-hand I want to say Elliott Smith is a SP-4 but I'm not sure.

*Sx 4's* are what Naranjo calls 'Shameless" - Counter-shame, counter-envy. Nothing stops you from getting what you want even if someone else might think it's shameful; hence "more 8 than an 8" - goal-focus, anger. Power comes from wearing your identity on your sleeve to attract people who will understand you; being recognized for who you are by one person, or intimate connections. An SX 4 might sing a song to an audience, but in her mind she's performing for just one person, even if he's fictional. She imagines that person would hear her revealing her feelings and 'get her'. If he won't see her for who she is, she's insignificant, even if the audience claps. Power comes from shameless expression and being recognized for who you are by intimate connections (friends, lover. family). See Tori Amos, sexual 4.

*So 4's* are more concerned with being socially recognized for who they are. They want admiration and applause for their unique identity and if it's not recognized socially they will feel like they're not good enough and they have no significance. They're very self-conscious and aware of how much admiration someone else is getting vs. how much they are getting. The power comes from being recognized socially, having a 'big name.' This is evident in Marilyn Manson's lyrics; he is a social 4. 

For a social 4, @_Oak_'s post was spot on. I'm social-last and blind to some things, sorry I protested so hard and overlooked this.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

dfoster said:


> Interesting that a Five considers things leaving him a loss of power, like it's a zero-sum world: anything gained from some where has to be lost from some where because there is no source that the loss can be replenished from. It's a world that doesn't connect to Source.
> 
> It's like a tree not connected to the nourishment of the ground: any broken branch will be forever lost so it's holding dearly onto any branches that it has. According to Almass, it's the specific delusion of type Five: *I am a separate entity from the rest of the universe*. This results in a state of impoverishment: *holding in* and even hoarding because they believe they get no nourishment/reimbursement from the universe.
> 
> ...


That makes sense with your view as an 8, but each type would get power in different ways.

Type 9 is at the crown of enneagram, because it holds most loosely to its sense of self. The type 9 merges with the world, but in doing so, loses her sense of identity and sense of self. The problem of 9 is psycho-spiritual inertia, because the inside is cloudy. The vice of sloth prevents type 9 from seeing herself on the inside, and instead turns her view outwards, which gives her a premature sense of enlightenment; she has blended and merged with the world. It's almost too easy for a 9 to prematurely imagine no-self the way Buddhists practice it, but it's not necessarily enlightenment (unless they've done inner work), it's forced lack of self-awareness, and over-awareness of what's outside of them which defines them. This is also why 9s are known to be 'stubborn' - they can find themselves losing touch with their own agenda entirely, and merging with others, and to protest this they try to take a STRONG stubborn stand in order to hold on to some tiny morsel of a sense of self.

On the opposite end, you have 4 and 5, both of whom feel alienated from the world. They have a strong sense of self, but a weaker sense of mergence. Both types need to let go of their stronghold on their own self. In the case of 5, it's a strong-hold on the mind; "my mind is my palace, nobody can penetrate it - I am in full control of my thoughts, and you cannot tell me what to think or how to use my mind" - and with 4, it's a strong-hold on their identity, "I am who I am and no one can stop me from being me, you cannot tell me who to be, what to wear, how to express myself. I am in full control of my identity, and you are not." That's why both types' sense of power has to 'come from within' whereas some of the types closer to 9, especially 8 and 1, would have a stronger sense of power coming from the mark they leave on the world.

I thought I was an 8 for a long time - I do think expansively. It's not enough for me to have ideas; I need to write a book. It's not enough to write music alone; I need to perform, lead a band. I'm a doer and a leader and someone who needs to see my dreams come to fruition, which seemed 8ish. However the motive is 4ish. I want to communicate who I am. I want to be true to my childhood dreams, and live the life that I imagined; I want to make it happen and I'm willing to strive, suffer, and stand for it. I want to expand into something greater than myself; I want to be human, animal, and symbol at once, because I am following _my_ heart and _my_ passion and _my _goals. I am not bothered by what anyone else does, as long as they're not in my way. Unlike an 8, I don't need to feel like I'm in charge of other people; but I need to be in charge of them in my band, for instance, because otherwise my vision won't come out the way I want. It's not the 'being in charge' and 'expanding' that gets me off, it's seeing my dreams come to tangible fruition; listening to the music that came to my head; having a concrete expression of my inner landscape in my hand to look at and see myself in it, like a mirror or a time capsule. In this way, I feel I am expanding (integrating to 1, maybe)..because, I've always written, "Alone, we are All One." If I can see myself in my work, others might also see it as a mirror, and see their own potential in it. But even this idea of expansion comes from a very individualistic place. It comes from a place of, 'you can find your identity just as I found mine. My identity and strength can help you to see your identity and strength.' It's humanitarian, but from a 4 angle. 8 or 1 humanitarianism is closer to 9, with less 'this is about me and who I am; and who you are as an individual' and more about feeling 'power' because you have the power to enact some goal and get other people to follow you toward that goal? You would 'become more' because you are strong enough to make an impact?

I am curious, for instance how you would do this (maybe a concrete example even if it's made up)



> You propagate yourself, you spread because you follow the law of nature. So for me to dissimate information: I'm planting seeds, I'm growing, I'm spreading. I've not become less, I've become more.


Because, I relate to this too, but from my own angle. I am wondering what it feels like for you to 'grow' or 'spread' or 'become more,' and how you would know or have the sense you were doing this.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Animal said:


> On the opposite end, you have 4 and 5, both of whom feel alienated from the world. They have a strong sense of self, but a weaker sense of mergence. Both types need to let go of their stronghold on their own self. *In the case of 5, it's a strong-hold on the mind; "my mind is my palace, nobody can penetrate it - I am in full control of my thoughts, and you cannot tell me what to think or how to use my mind" *- and with 4, it's a strong-hold on their identity, "I am who I am and no one can stop me from being me, you cannot tell me who to be, what to wear, how to express myself.


Thank you for accurately illustrating how a 5 with a heavy 4 wing views power but ultimately; I am extremely possessive of my having the ultimate _authority_ over my _own_ thoughts - especially about _myself_. Nothing annoys me more, then when other people tell me things about myself; that are derived from nothing more than their emo-based projections and don't see that despite what they think; they cannot _read_ my mind. I _always_ have to be the ultimate _judge_ of what I _think_. 

I respect legitimate expertise only in so much, that I will welcome their input and suggestions and I will review the information and come to _my_ own conclusions. When you grow up with an extremely manipulative mother who tried to control your every move; you learn how to defend yourself from people forcing their opinions on you. It isn't always possible to prevent others from controlling your behaviour but they will never get control over my mind, unless; _I_ let them.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

TreasureTower said:


> It isn't always possible to prevent others from controlling your behaviour but they will never get control over my mind, unless; _I_ let them.


My body, mind, projects, living space, music, clothing, hair, etc, are all expressions of self. Nobody can tell me what to do, how to do it, or when. I don't give one fucking flying shit if someone is offended by my choices or expression, though I am extremely respectful to others' choices. I think Basic Respect 101 is showing up on time when you have plans, fulfilling your duties, putting in your two weeks when you quit a job, practicing a lot if your parents are kind enough to pay for your music lessons. A good metaphor is, don't tell me what art to hang up in MY room or how often to clean MY room; but I will always do my dishes immediately and negotiate with others (to the point of "I'll paint it, you tell me what to paint) when it comes to the living room or common space. What's shared isn't mine, though I'm happy to contribute labor or money to a collective if it serves my purposes. What's mine is mine. 

But no matter what I contribute to, NO ONE can control me. My parents used to try. Ever since I was a toddler I fought back - this is a description often associated with type 8. My father is a triple-id 7w8 with a 164 IQ and even he could not control me. I used to keep a bag packed in my room, when I was 7, 8... if my parents insisted on me doing something I didn't want to do, I simply picked up the bag and left. I got straight A's, of my own volition. I practiced music and did my chores of my own volition. On my own time,_ I do what I want -_* the end*_. _I am willing to fight physically to prevent myself from being controlled, and have done so, even as a kid.

Control, for me, includes my body, my actions, my space, my things. I also control who I am friends with , who I date. No boyfriend has ever been able to control what other males I talk to or how I dress. Any attempt will result in a warning and the second attempt will result in a break up. I cannot be controlled, at all, in any way, shape or form. Nobody has power over me unless I give it willingly, and when I do, I'm always prepared to take it back.

This is where I don't relate to 5s and avarice, and why I know I have a 3-wing. I am a doer. My body is me. My actions are me. My choices are me. A 5's sense of self can be, "no one controls my mind but they can tell me what to do" ... that doesn't work for me. I am not a disembodied mind.

Autonomy is power.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

@Animal, No one tells me what to do either; I won't allow it. My point was that if you retain autonomy over your own mind; no one can tell you what to do either. Control begins and ends with brainwashing. Once you give someone else power over your mind; they can get you to do whatever they want you to do but if you refuse to allow that to happen; then it is not possible to control you.

My mother terrorised me as a child. There literally was no escape but while she was screaming, flailing and threatening to hit me; I could detach from it temporarily until I could escape it; when she would go out or when my father was home. When you are psychologically terrorised, you don't think about escaping, because you are to paralyzed with fear to do _anything_ at all, but the paralysis fortunately never extended to my mind but that's what abusers do: they try to control your thoughts before they try to take charge of anything else, because once they get control over that; you are putty in their hands.


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## heaveninawildflower (Feb 5, 2012)

Animal said:


> Control, for me, includes my body, my actions, my space, my things.


I can relate. I wanted to share something I wrote not long ago:



NorthernAngel said:


> Years ago I had an accident and I spent a few months in a hospital learning how to walk again. I got into some conflicts with the staff because I refused to follow some of the rules and show up for some of the therapy...long story. But anyways, the doctor told me I had to follow the program or they would send me to another hospital. So I told him to send me away because I felt that I should have a say in my recovery and what services I received.


A few of the nurses just thought I was a rebellious, pain in the ass, who was causing chaos on the rehab floor. But all I wanted... it was to make the decisions in what kind of therapy I received.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@_NorthernAngel_

I wish more people, especially women, made more of an effort to be an advocate for their health needs and requirements. You have every right to have a solid say in how your own therapy ought to be conducted. Much respect. 

I have seen way too many people, again usually women, pushed around or pulled in 10 different directions by medical staff. I always tell them to trust their instincts and be proactive. Take the reins in your own hands. Push for more and better. Do not relent. My own diagnosis (autoimmune disease--Hashimoto's Thyroiditis) was severely delayed, and it came about at the time it did because I did not take "No" for an answer. My TSH was through the roof when I was diagnosed. I had every classic symptom of thyroid disease imaginable--- low body temperature, unexplained weight gain (and I am a very active person), severe memory loss, excessive fatigue, muscle weakness, depression, fucked up periods to the point I had to get iron infusions to compensate for excessive blood loss, cramps all over my body, lowered blood pressure and low heart rate..you name it. At one point, I was so cold that I burnt my foot accidentally from placing it too close to the heater. Nothing I did was enough to get me to stop fuckin shivering, when the weather was anything but extremely cold. 

Guess what the doctors told me? You must be "anxious". You need to do "aquatic exercises" and lose weight. One even suggested I was lazy. So, you see, I have very strong opinions on women's health and women taking control of their own health. There's a well-documented sexist bias in the medical attention paid to women, especially worse where women of colour are concerned. @_Animal_ and I have had a long conversation about this very issue a while back. Again, I am glad you did what was best for *you*. 

Hey, that's a good example of power.  Setting your own agendas, identifying your needs and wants, and then pursuing these relentlessly until you've acquired/achieved what you set out to. 
___________________________________
*
Now, OP, I am going to quote and expand on posts I have made on "Power":*

-Power is influence and the ability to control resources and expand them. This includes the ability to control your environment (may include people). Power also includes decision making and agenda setting. It may or may not involve coercion, depending on specific goals. It is largely channeled/exercised/constituted through knowledge, expertise, wealth and various forms of cultural hegemony (Gramsci's my man). 


-You could definitely lose some control by admitting you have a weakness. I don't believe that I can lose my personal power (ability to decide, control resources, influence outcomes, make changes) in a substantial sense, ever. Personally, I have no interest in admitting a weakness unless it gives me a strategic advantage. In close romantic relationships, admitting a so-called weakness can be a profound moment, a beautiful one. I don't do this often at all, but doing it is nowhere as bad as I had imagined. I just felt very human. It's not very often that I feel human.

-I direct people like I eat food or breathe. I don't have a conscious "need" to have power over others. I control people (direct them, while giving them respect and space) because I know what I am doing, what I want and how to get it, and how to get them to work for it. I am an effective leader. They listen because they respect my authority, expertise and overall awesomeness.  

Do I go around telling people how to dress, how to fuck, how to bathe, what sort of "moral" framework to abide by, what to do with their toilet seats? No. I couldn't be bothered. They live their life, and I do my own thing. You don't go out of your way to hassle me, and I will let you be. Peace prevails, just how I like it. You cross the line with me and provoke me again and again, then it gets very nasty. I get enraged, and you get very regretful.

-And yes, *abuse of power* angers me (when I am directly affected or when children/disabled/poor folk are involved). Whenever I can, I use my resources to put abusers in place, and give them a taste of their own damn medicine in the cruelest way I can. Had I not been restricted by the Law and my own future goals, I would’ve killed a few people by now LOL. I have taken a violent stance, in one on one scenarios, a few times, but only when practical and necessary. I enjoy the intensity of combat. It arouses my bloodlust and makes me want to bite off chunks of heart and sate myself with blood and the sight…yeah you get the gist.


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## dfoster (Mar 8, 2010)

Animal said:


> That makes sense with your view as an 8, but each type would get power in different ways.
> 
> Type 9 is at the crown of enneagram, because it holds most loosely to its sense of self. The type 9 merges with the world, but in doing so, loses her sense of identity and sense of self. The problem of 9 is psycho-spiritual inertia, because the inside is cloudy. The vice of sloth prevents type 9 from seeing herself on the inside, and instead turns her view outwards, which gives her a premature sense of enlightenment; she has blended and merged with the world. It's almost too easy for a 9 to prematurely imagine no-self the way Buddhists practice it, but it's not necessarily enlightenment (unless they've done inner work), it's forced lack of self-awareness, and over-awareness of what's outside of them which defines them. This is also why 9s are known to be 'stubborn' - they can find themselves losing touch with their own agenda entirely, and merging with others, and to protest this they try to take a STRONG stubborn stand in order to hold on to some tiny morsel of a sense of self.
> 
> ...


y'all catch me at a lazy time in my life  Wish it was 2 years ago when I was in my "Enneagram mode" I guess I won't be able to do your post justice...

Speaking of justice... let me do this first... I want to do it right by type 5: I want to expand on the concept of 8 and 5 making the perfect pair. Because I have an intimate connection to 5 and they have an intimate connection to 8 as well. So I am familiar with this dichotomy: In order for stuff to flow out, there has to be stuff to flow in. An 8 cannot spread any seed if there are no seeds to spread  Before that, he either needs a 5 or be 5-ish for for stuff to flow in. By the same token, a 5 needs 8s or has to be 8-ish to see his vision become reality. 

I know this scenario rather well: I've spent years with super smart technical people who have great ideas...At the end of the day, years after years, they're still broke, ideas not tested, visions not fulfilled. They still work in cubicles doing 9 to 5 wishing what ifs.. But... out of that group... all it takes is a 5 with 8 qualities that can get people together, organize, push things thru, take risks.. then it becomes a start-up.. Then things start happening. I've seen this too. It takes this kind of 8-ish 5 to get technology moving. You guys probably have seen the picture of Bill Gates with all his 5 friends... all it takes is someone like Bill Gates - I don't know what he is but it takes that combination of head and gut to make things happen. Sometimes you don't need both in a person but *there has to be some kind of 5ish people working with 8ish people to get things done.
*
OK, back to my other post.. I was just thinking out loud with little organization.. but some stuff from Almaas and some from my own observation of the universe. Kinda similar to the law of the farm: if you do things similar to nature then you're in line with nature because everything in the universe obeys the same rules.

About personal empowerment... I wasn't talking about it at all. I know people on here have made great strides in that area and I'm not making light at all as in saying I know what power should be, everyone has their own valid definition of personal power. 

I was just referring to power in the general sense of world shaping, similar to Creation: the power of God. (OK I'm going in and out of all the spiritual stuff, so bear with me ) In Genesis it said "Have dominion over the Earth..." that's where the idea of spreading and expanding comes from. We are to be* co-creators *with the Creator. If we go deep in to the spiritual side of the Ennegram (I can't quote but I have read this many times)... the goal is to lessen the ego and *realize one's ultimate role in context with the universe*. And you will see this in Almaas's book: as if the universe wants to differentiate its experience and see things through the eyes of everyone so it can learn about itself. So we are actually the universe in different versions experiencing different things but ultimately just one. Like polyps in a coral colony: they're all different animals but still consider one organism (yeah, I know, it's not a comfortable concept 

So from the analogy of the coral colony, when I spread, propagate, fulfill my visions, it's *more than just individualistic*. Because if a polyp eats, the whole colony gets the food. So because I'm connected with the universe, I am MADE of the universe, I am the universe. My goal is the goal of the universe. I'm fulfilling my role as a co-creator and a contributor, no matter how individualistic it seems. I get my visions, my inspirations from the universe, my talents, my circumstances...for the fulfillment of those visions.. ultimately go toward building and orchestrating this huge cosmic dance... just because the universe wants to  And we each do our part.

But we are somewhat placed in our unique circumstances and talents and visions so that we think they are ours. But they are given to us, we are stewards, the keepers of those visions and so we are also given the means to fulfill them.

But the universe doesn't want just random stuff. The ultimate goal is love. Everything we do with our role, either preaching or composing or exposing the truth is an expression of that, either directly or indirectly.

So when I become "more", the universe becomes more. I see the universe growing "thru" me, as nothing is from me . I feel privlidged to have been an instrument of it, to have been used is to be connected, to be alive, to be love.

A small experiment you can do, when you feel like crap and isolated, try *giving* love. You don't have to run down and feed the homeless, just give love to anything around you: say something nice to your kids, hug your parent, sing to your neighbor, pet your dog, water your plant. You'd feel better already because love flows *thru *you. It flows from the universe thru you onto the object. You are enliven because of the flow. And I also believe without this flow, you're in the process of dying. So anything you do with your music career could be consider an act of giving love.

Anyway.. a small example at the risk of exposing myself.. Two years ago, I was annoyed by the stereotypes of 8 so I started promoting Naranjo and Maitri in one of my threads. I was new here so I got nothing to lose, still the strong opposition to their blunt materials made me think that if the new guy is stirring up too much crap, he could be banned and that could be counter productive. So I stopped defending my thread and thought that all I did was *planting a seed*. If it fell on fertile ground, it will grow. I came back 6 months later and to my surprise, it now had supports. The seed fell on fertile ground  Now Naranjo and Maitri arne't so opposed anymore  I don't know if it was all me but I did feel like something flowed thru me  

OK I need to go to bed


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## Hunger (Jul 21, 2011)

dfoster said:


> y'all catch me at a lazy time in my life  Wish it was 2 years ago when I was in my "Enneagram mode" I guess I won't be able to do your post justice...
> 
> Speaking of justice... let me do this first... I want to do it right by type 5: I want to expand on the concept of 8 and 5 making the perfect pair. Because I have an intimate connection to 5 and they have an intimate connection to 8 as well. So I am familiar with this dichotomy: In order for stuff to flow out, there has to be stuff to flow in. An 8 cannot spread any seed if there are no seeds to spread  Before that, he either needs a 5 or be 5-ish for for stuff to flow in. By the same token, a 5 needs 8s or has to be 8-ish to see his vision become reality.
> 
> ...


This is the best thing I've ever read on Personality Café.


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## dfoster (Mar 8, 2010)

Animal said:


> I want to expand into* something greater than myself*;


Absolutely, every person was born with a hole in their heart, a void in their soul that cannot be filled by the ordinary . Because the soul knows where it came from. The finite always yearns to be with the infinite. Be whatever endeavor you're in, if you're in touch with this truth, it will drive you forever: I'm doing this to be with the infinite where I came from.


Peggy Noonan, Reagan's speech writer wrote this for him to speak in the wake of the Space Shuttle Challenger's disaster: "to touch the face of God". When you look at it practically, having the Space Shuttle flying up and down is a very impractical feat. I'm an engineer so I knew about it: it's a lot cheaper to deliver payload into orbit by means of disposable rockets. But they were doing it because they could, because it means something much more than delivering payloads. Just like the iconic project of putting a man on the moon. It wakes up the hearts and souls and inspires millions, to be something greater than themselves.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

dfoster said:


> So when I become "more", the universe becomes more. I see the universe growing "thru" me, as nothing is from me . I feel privlidged to have been an instrument of it, to have been used is to be connected, to be alive, to be love.
> 
> A small experiment you can do, when you feel like crap and isolated, try *giving* love. You don't have to run down and feed the homeless, just give love to anything around you: say something nice to your kids, hug your parent, sing to your neighbor, pet your dog, water your plant. You'd feel better already because love flows *thru *you. It flows from the universe thru you onto the object. You are enliven because of the flow. And I also believe without this flow, you're in the process of dying. So anything you do with your music career could be consider an act of giving love.


I love this.

This reminds me of a conversation I had online somewhere else the other day.

I wrote:
Karma is not an otherworldly force. You're good to others => you respect yourself => people respect you => people are good to you. Circular. 

Others wrote [to paraphrase]: 
People don't always give back what you give, things aren't always fair etc.

I wrote:
Life deals everyone a hand, and some are much shittier than others. Self-respect comes from how we play the hand we are dealt. Self-respect does not arise from simply being given things. So no matter how much someone has, if they haven't worked for something they care about or been good and respectful to those in their lives, they will still make bad decisions and feel terrible about their life. Nothing will ever be 'fair' - all of us come up on the short end of things sometimes, and some of us more than others because of circumstances we can't control. But what we get back from it, internally and externally, can only improve as our self-respect leads us to make better decisions, choose better people, put ourselves in better situations.

To elaborate, i_t feels good to give. _ I respect myself when I give, because I am doing what feels natural and honest. If I don't have money or "things" to give, I can give people hope. Hope is a valuable gift and for people who have none, it can change their lives. I'm not talking about 'false hope.' I'm talking about real hope. Telling them stories of my own trials and triumphs. Telling them that whether they fail or succeed at this specific endeavor, I respect the hell out of them for trying. Telling them that something they did once in the past has touched me and made an impact on me. Telling them they may think their music sucks but is it worse than Justin Beiber? ETc.



> Anyway.. a small example at the risk of exposing myself.. Two years ago, I was annoyed by the stereotypes of 8 so I started promoting Naranjo and Maitri in one of my threads. I was new here so I got nothing to lose, still the strong opposition to their blunt materials made me think that if the new guy is stirring up too much crap, he could be banned and that could be counter productive. So I stopped defending my thread and thought that all I did was *planting a seed*. If it fell on fertile ground, it will grow. I came back 6 months later and to my surprise, it now had supports. The seed fell on fertile ground  Now Naranjo and Maitri arne't so opposed anymore  I don't know if it was all me but I did feel like something flowed thru me


Planting a seed is a great way to phrase it.  And you're so right! It might land in fertile ground or not; but at least you feel good about planting it. You know you reached out. That has to feel good. And then it feels even better when the ground is fertile. ;D


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

Power is essentially the ability bring about or receive change. In Lockian terms anyway.

I guess my definition of power is quite similar to that definition. Power is the ability to have some kind of impact on the surrounding environment regardless of how much effort one puts into it. People with a lot of power typically don't have to put in much effort.


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## Ecoas (Jul 28, 2013)

The ability to create what you want to. Power is not real if it requires you to create only things to maintain it.


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## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

power is the ability to be unswayed and unaffected by the world around you. not because you don't care or are not moved by the world--quite the opposite in fact--but because it has the ability to rip and tear you in a multitude of directions. 

power is realizing this inner effect the outer has upon you, and quelling it enough to have at once have an awareness of it, and a voice of your own. 

with this, the "effect"--the emotion--isn't squandered or downplayed in the effort of giving one a false sense of strength by shutting down hope or affection for what is found; but the person is also not a slave to their own response, and through that, is not a slave to the world itself. 

nothing is lost or severed, and you can meet the world with the driving force of your own guidance--your will, your strength. truly on your own terms.


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## Coburn (Sep 3, 2010)

Self-sufficiency, autonomy. Perhaps the power to affect change where desired.


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## KINGoftheAMAZONS (Jun 21, 2011)

To me, power means that I have the ability to determine my own fate. It means that I have the right to say "no", and the power to overrule anyone who'd try to coerce me into saying _yes_. Power is the explicit rejection of learned helplessness (Learned helplessness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Power is having the ability to consciously shape the feelings and perceptions of your audience.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

I think this quote represents well my idea of what power (and control) is:

_“There is so much about my fate that I cannot control, but other things do fall under the jurisdiction. I can decide how I spend my time, whom I interact with, whom I share my body and life and money and energy with. I can select what I can read and eat and study. I can choose how I'm going to regard unfortunate circumstances in my life-whether I will see them as curses or opportunities. I can choose my words and the tone of voice in which I speak to others. And most of all, I can choose my thoughts._

_You need to learn how to select your thoughts just the same way you select your clothes every day. This is a power you can cultivate. If you want to control things in your life so bad, work on the mind. That's the only thing you should be trying to control.”_


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Animal said:


> Power is having the strength to overcome adversity. Building up influence, building skills, saving money to be autonomous; these can help inner strength to build through self-esteem that results from hard work and effort. But true power is within yourself. When all else falls apart for reasons beyond your control, power is having the strength to stand strong, stay true to yourself, hold on to your integrity, and triumph.
> 
> Power is resisting the urge to betray your integrity, become vengeful, angry, hostile and self-destructive, when life fucks you over. Power is keeping your eye on your goals and moving forward no matter what else happens. Power is _trusting yourself_. If you have your integrity, you will always have power.
> 
> ...












You are awesome, woman and I love that drawing!


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

TreasureTower said:


> You are awesome, woman and I love that drawing!


Thank you =,) *big hug!!*

It's not my drawing.. I found it online. JUst saying.. I can't draw to save my life. But I agree it's very beautiful.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Animal said:


> Thank you =,) *big hug!!*
> 
> It's not my drawing.. I found it online. JUst saying.. I can't draw to save my life. But I agree it's very beautiful.












You are wise beyond your years.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

I wish I could have typology-related dreams. 

I guess one thing I can find power in is not taking myself too seriously.


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