# The ask a LGBT Person thread.



## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

...double, *facepalm*


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

I would like to point out demisexual and pansexual are not the same. 

Pansexual is the potential to be attracted to any sex, any gender, and any combination of the two therein. It's somewhat redundant in comparasion to bisexuality because being bi constitutes an attraction to either sex. However in today's rhetoric, bisexuality usually implies a narrow-minded person who sees both sex and gender as absolute binaries. Pansexuality is the openess to that not being true. It is therefore a more progressive view of sexuality while also being a more accurate take on things. 

I, however, have determined I am polysexual. It is essentially the same thing as pansexual except pansexual usually refers to _all_ genders or a genderless approach. Poly simply means multi and not necessarily all. As it were, there are some gender identities I don't find appealing. 

Now, demisexuality is entirely different and an odd sort of sexual identity. It does not stand on its own. You can be heterosexual and demi or bisexual and demi or essentially anything except asexual. You can be gray-a and demi, but it could be argued those are one in the same from a psychological standpoint. 

So, now what is demisexuality? It is the lack of sexual attraction to anyone until romantic feelings or an emotional attachment as formed. It's a very spirtual approach to sexuality in my opinion. 

Pansexuals will have the potential to be attracted to anyone while demisexuals won't have the potential until their is an emotional attachment. 

Make sense to anyone?


EDIT: @Fitz Cabbage - We essentially posted on thoughts at the same time. Dx Your post was more encompassig though, albeit approached some different things.


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

Ok, need to appoligize for screwing up on the Demisexual definition. LOL


I said I thought they are attracted to all like Pansexual, but I remembered that they are only fully sexual with a person if they are involved, and their emotions are fully engaged in that person. They can only be sexual with that one person. Other people hold no interest for them.

I hope this is better. Please feel free to correct me if I am not saying it correctly(still) LOL


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

Brian1 said:


> How has DOMA or DADT affected you? What kind of discrimination do you face? I was 19 when they whole Gays in the military with Clinton and Powell erupted and know that, but I wasn't paying attention to the implications of DOMA.


DOMA actually filters through the entire system.

For example, while states seem to still be honoring marriages made before someone changes their legal sex (which can then result in a same-sex marriage that was initially hetero) even when the state forbids same-sex marriage, some insurance plans (because of DOMA) will try to deny coverage or do not include non-het web site options based on the fact that their systems are defaulted to not accepting partners who are same-sex.

There hasn't really been a major test of DOMA in this regard, with a case going to the supreme court. Most of the indignities for transpeople involve just the state laws, where people who are even legally the correct gender to be in a "het" marriage will sometimes have their marriage annulled by the state when relatives sue after the non-trans spouse's death, insisting it was a same-sex marriage anyway and thus invalid.


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## Drewbie (Apr 28, 2010)

killerB said:


> Ok, need to appoligize for screwing up on the Demisexual definition. LOL
> 
> 
> I said I thought they are attracted to all like Pansexual, but I remembered that they are only fully sexual with a person if they are involved, and their emotions are fully engaged in that person. They can only be sexual with that one person. Other people hold no interest for them.
> ...


Demisexuality is experiencing sexual attraction only to people with whom a person has developed an emotional/mental (not always romantic) connection. Beyond that, anything else goes. They can be inclined towards forming those connections in a way that leans towards any number of genders or only one, they can experience sexual attraction towards multiple people at once if they feel that connection to more than one person at a time, and like any other orientation it is possible for them to want, have and enjoy sex at any time they please whether or not they experience sexual attraction for another person. While many demisexuals on this forum tend to lean towards only wanting sex with one person whom they are in a relationship with, and that's a fairly common occurrence for demisexual people, that's not the rule.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

killerB said:


> Ok, need to appoligize for screwing up on the Demisexual definition. LOL


Hey. Remember. Just because you're gay that doesn't mean you understand sexuality. :wink: It's just prevailing information seems to enforce the words in my above post.



> I said I thought they are attracted to all like Pansexual, but I remembered that they are only fully sexual with a person if they are involved, and their emotions are fully engaged in that person. They can only be sexual with that one person. Other people hold no interest for them.
> 
> I hope this is better. Please feel free to correct me if I am not saying it correctly(still) LOL


Well, I think it's possible for a demisexual to be attracted to more than one person at a time if they so happen to fall in love with two people at once. However, I am not demisexual, and I don't know too many of them very well. 

If I am not mistaken, @Wellsy identifies as demi but is straight... what do you say, boy?


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

saintless said:


> Some wish to believe they are not their genetic code. They don't fully understand the mechanisms of attraction.
> 
> Just because you're gay doesn't mean you understand sexuality.
> 
> That last bit sounds like an attack on this thread. It's not. I love this thread. However, nothing magically endows anyone in this world with knowledge.


This is all very true. In fact, just because you are one of those letters in the LGBTQA string doesn't necessarily mean you understand the experience of one of the other letters.



WamphyriThrall said:


> What are your thoughts on transphobia in the LGBT community?


There's a sizable chunk of LGB that is supportive even if they don't understand. I think it also says something that, during the ENDA battles of the last few years, there was a push to jettison the Trans protections from ENDA in order for the gay part to go through (i.e., trans people would have been bumped so that gays could have ENDA rights), and the gays in charge decided to not accept that, so ENDA hadn't gotten passed.

However, there is some misunderstanding between the groups since transgenders can cross into gay culture and they're not all the same things. For example, male gays often mistake transsexuals for drag queens, but they are not the same at all, in behavior or in mentality or self-identity. This can cause issues when gays try to interact with transsexuals as gay male drag queens but they'd do better just treating M2Fs as women.

Also, there are portions of the lesbian community that refuse to accept M2F transsexuals (and any other transgender variation as well) as actual females, insisting they are just men who are trying to infiltrate and subjugate and suppress female culture.

There are also some militant lesbians who have beaten up transwomen and kicked them out of the female bathrooms. I've witnessed it.

Pretty freaking ridiculous. You'd think groups that have all been marginalized by society would support each other, instead of just trying to kick whoever they think is weaker and becoming bullies themselves. 

Some of this post is about the misunderstandings between the communities. The last few examples are downright transphobia. 

And I don't know if it's transphobic or not, but when you examine drag queen communities, some of them seem adverse to transsexuals -- like on RuPaul's Drag Race, there seemed to be a big stigma toward actually being a transsexual versus a drag queen, as if that somehow de-legitimized their craft, and the 1-2 contestants who ended up realizing they were trans were actually kind of scared to come out for fear of rejection. And I saw queens on the show being accused of being latent transsexuals and they would deny it vehemently.


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## LarinLazet (Aug 4, 2012)

killerB said:


> Yes, There are so many things controlled by hormones and genetics that we cannot even understand it. I know within myself that it has never been a choice, no more than having blue or brown eyes. I also believe that we will be so suprised at what we find at the unraveling of the human genome that we will feel really stupid we thought different. I think all sexuality , even those who are Demisexual or Asexual is inborn, the choice only is in the acting on it.
> 
> In other words, you can be born asexual, but due to societal pressures/guilt force yourself into a sexual relationship, and you may even orgasm at times because our bodies are machines and they sometimes react to stimulus. However, emotionally and mentally is is fufilling? Are we truly happy, or just pretending? Do you feel dirty afterwards?
> 
> I know many people say there is no gene, however, they can not find the Autism gene, yet Autism exists. There are many things that exist that they can't find a gene for, we are in the infancy of learning the Human Genome.


I quite agree with this, as someone who's been through this, your example is spot on. In my opinion, if sexuality and such were a choice, considering how one may feel about their sexuality, it would be easy for one who dislikes being ****/demi/a/heterosexual to simply change sexuality. I'm certain that people today don't go through being misunderstood or persecuted for their sexuality because they like the attention.

What you act on and how you feel don't necessarily have to be the same thing.


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

killerB said:


> I think there is no excuse for it. It makes me very angry. It also makes me really sad that we have such hate among ourselves in the community. We have all been disscriminated against, we all know how it feel, it's just plain wrong for people to then discriminate against others that need our support.


Hear, hear! See my last post. We know how it feels, let's not be the bigotry that we have all been victims of, let's be the hope that overcomes it.



> Besides that, People seem to forget that at the Stonewall Riots it was our beautiful transgendered folk and Queens that put themselves on the front line so we could all have some rights.


Yup. I'm not sure how many people realize that the Trans part of the LGBT community started all that, although the LGBs took things and pushed forward admirably. 



> It was really frustrating for me when I was married to a MTF pre-opt(because of health reasons was not post-op ) and we were viewed as a straight couple, sometimes looked down on when we went to gay venues. I was made to feel that I was being disloyal to the LGBT community for beign with what they saw as a bio-male. They didn't take into account I was married to a girl, because it didn't show. That is why to this day I call myself a Queeer Femme, not just a lesbian.


I'm sorry that happened to you. But good for you, for sticking with the person you loved... especially when you were trying to be part of a community that should have understood.

That part can be confusing for everyone -- in a very real sense, your partner was a lesbian trapped in a man's body to use the cliche.  It's funny HOW dominated people are by their visuals and not by other senses or ideas. If you look right, you are accepted into a community; if you do not look right, regardless of anything else about you, the community might reject you.


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

saintless said:


> Well, I think it's possible for a demisexual to be attracted to more than one person at a time if they so happen to fall in love with two people at once. However, I am not demisexual, and I don't know too many of them very well.
> 
> If I am not mistaken, @_Wellsy_ identifies as demi but is straight... what do you say, boy?


 @killerB

To be honest im wondering how specific somethings have to be to be classified demisexual, still looking into it. I thought about men sexually like if i'd be into that, but though I can find men aestehtically pleasing as anyone really for the anatomy of how things works being cool to see. I have no strong inclination to be sexual with a man. It could be a haven't found a man i've bonded with but I dont feel it's that. I don't have any sexual attraction to men.
I absolutely adore women but I dont care how beautiful she is, if I dont click with her personality she's of no interest to me. It's like a switch, I dont care about doing it with anyone in person but soon as I start to like them and they happen to be a woman things start changing. 
I suppose could love two people, I've never been in that situation. I usually attracted to one person and she's the only one I think about in that way. I guess my idealism kind of quells and competition because I probably self sabotage to keep the woman of interest at the top. I do question being demisexual purely based on that i've used porn before, being young as I am I have an expected libido. 

I've wondered if a Demisexual really is one if they can use porn to get off or whether i'm just a shy guy with high standards. Either way I think a Demi could be straight or gay, it's more about how attraction occurs than to whom.


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## cue5c (Oct 12, 2011)

Lexibear said:


> I have a question, although I do somewhat fit into the LGBT community (I'm pansexual). It's somewhat off topic, but I don't think it really deserves its own thread. I started thinking of and noticing people in a sexual way, somewhere around the age of 12-13. I've never really had a gender preference, other than the fact that I know I would most like to have a serious relationship with a natural man, for both society reasons and feelings of safety. So if it's possible to explain, how did you actually realize you weren't attracted to the opposite sex? A feeling of emptiness, or a general dissatisfaction?


It's hard to explain, but guys just "glowed" brighter for me. Their faces just popped. When I was younger I didn't understand what that meant, but in my teenage years it really hit me that I was really attracted to guys.


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## abigaleblues (Apr 11, 2012)

A note on number 3:

This is particularly important to us Bi folks. A gay man can't help that he likes guys. A lesbian can't help that she likes women. I can't help that I am attracted to both genders. 

"Pick a side" is one of the most cruel things anyone has ever said to me. And I hear it a lot.


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

abigaleblues said:


> "Pick a side" is one of the most cruel things anyone has ever said to me. And I hear it a lot.


Ugh! I've heard the same things slip out of others mouths, even other members of the community. I.Don't.Get.It. 
I'm sorry you had to hear that. >_<


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

Wellsy said:


> @_killerB_
> 
> To be honest im wondering how specific somethings have to be to be classified demisexual, still looking into it. I thought about men sexually like if i'd be into that, but though I can find men aestehtically pleasing as anyone really for the anatomy of how things works being cool to see. I have no strong inclination to be sexual with a man. It could be a haven't found a man i've bonded with but I dont feel it's that. I don't have any sexual attraction to men.
> I absolutely adore women but I dont care how beautiful she is, if I dont click with her personality she's of no interest to me. It's like a switch, I dont care about doing it with anyone in person but soon as I start to like them and they happen to be a woman things start changing.
> ...



I am glad there are some Demisexuals here to explain things. I don't know much about it and I have already learned a great deal. I had no idea that there could be more than one interest at a time.


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

cue5c said:


> It's hard to explain, but guys just "glowed" brighter for me. Their faces just popped. When I was younger I didn't understand what that meant, but in my teenage years it really hit me that I was really attracted to guys.



My wife says that men smelled awful to her, and women smelled really good. That is how she knew.


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

killerB said:


> I am glad there are some Demisexuals here to explain things. I don't know much about it and I have already learned a great deal. I had no idea that there could be more than one interest at a time.


I suppose you could discuss Demisexuals with someone more knowledgeable than myself. I kind of just woke up and half assed that response really, it's a mess.
I'm pretty sure @Promethea would be more than happy to part with some of what she knows


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

abigaleblues said:


> A note on number 3:
> 
> This is particularly important to us Bi folks. A gay man can't help that he likes guys. A lesbian can't help that she likes women. I can't help that I am attracted to both genders.
> 
> "Pick a side" is one of the most cruel things anyone has ever said to me. And I hear it a lot.



I hate that. Some people are just insecure over their sexuality. (((HUGS)))


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## Drewbie (Apr 28, 2010)

DeductiveReasoner said:


> When did you realize your sexual preferences, and how?
> 
> Did ya just sorta wake up one morning and think "I like the same sex!"? (Obviously it wasn't like that, but you catch my drift)





Snakecharmer said:


> At what age did you realize what your sexual preference is?


It was a very gradual realization for me. I knew around the age of 14 that I was capable of enjoying sexual experiences with people of any gender, however my polysexuality didn't become something I accepted and acknowledged until I was in my early twenties. 

It came about when I started separating sex and love. I realized that bodies were just tools with nerve endings and sex was about using bodies to create mutually enjoyable experiences. In that case, it wouldn't matter the gender of the body or even if I found that body attractive if we could work together to create a satisfying sexual experience. Clearly, things are a bit more complicated than that but at 14 with limited resources "gender and even attraction don't matter so long as your partner can hit 'the right spots'" was about as comprehensible as I could make my sexual orientation. I was raised to be a conservative Christian and because I didn't see attraction as something related to sexual gratification, and I didn't experience what i recognized as attraction anyway, I decided it wasn't an indicator of anything significant and that I was 'straight' because, as a conservative Christian, I would never let myself engage in sexual behavior that I thought was inappropriate. That all changed when I lost my faith at the age of 20 and let myself come to terms with my sexuality and gender identity.



> What was coming out like (if you have come out to family, friends, etc)?


Different though more traumatic than I was expecting. I was expecting my family to rage, hurl abuse, throw me out, and disown me so that's what I was prepared for. I had a place arranged to stay short term with the possibility of staying long term and friends willing to help me move and shield me from my family if needed. Instead my coming out was unacknowledged for a few weeks followed by repeated attempts at interventions, nudges towards conversion therapy (which I already had traumatic experiences with though my parents are unaware of that), and I was otherwise emotionally manipulated in attempts to get to me change my sexuality "out of love and concern for the state of my soul" until I was so terrified of being around any of my family that I couldn't even leave my room. Then I moved about 1200 miles away. My relationship with them has much improved with the distance and they seem to understand better that if they don't accept my sexuality and relationships that they will not be allowed in my life.



I am a non-binary trans person. I can't really comment on my _general _thoughts on transphobia in the cisGLB community because most of it is just feelings that can only be translated to incomprehensible screaming and smashing things but I'm a bit more capable of addressing specific issues.






abigaleblues said:


> "Pick a side" is one of the most cruel things anyone has ever said to me. And I hear it a lot.


This is why when I came out to my parents I came out as gay instead of bisexual. I was feeling vulnerable enough knowing they would not be able to accept my same-sex attraction, I was not okay to hear 'if you like both why not choose to only have straight relationships', especially because that's what I forced myself to believe I should do for such a long time.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

Mm. I should share how I determined my sexuality, but I didn't definitely decide on things until college. The journey up to that point was complicated, drawn-out, and involved quite a bit of personal turmoil. 

I also have only come out to my sister, three or four friends, and random online strangers (you guys).

I haven't told my brother despite living with him right now nor my other two roommates. My parents don't know either, and I am not sure I will ever tell them unless I have a desire to take a serious girlfriend to a family event. 

My point is... I will get to it when I am not feeling lazy. -___-


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

I have a question all the LGBT people here... good LGBT movies?


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## quadrivium (Nov 6, 2011)

I identify as Gray A if anyone has any questions about the spectrum of asexuality.


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## LarinLazet (Aug 4, 2012)

quadrivium said:


> I identify as Gray A if anyone has any questions about the spectrum of asexuality.


Ooh~ Gray A. It's always been something that confused me, ironically. Would you mind explaining it a bit to me? Is it different from demisexuality?


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## wisterias (Jul 15, 2012)

LarinLazet said:


> Ooh~ Gray A. It's always been something that confused me, ironically. Would you mind explaining it a bit to me? Is it different from demisexuality?


I'm asexual but uh, here goes.

Asexuality is a spectrum. And it isn't always black and white. People who identify as grey A can (*but are not limited to*):
- have a low sex drive/experience infrequent attraction
- do not 'normally' experience sexual attraction, but do sometimes (rarely)
- enjoy/want sex, but only under certain circumstances

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but demisexuality is sexual attraction only with emotional attachment present - I think demisexuality can fall into grey-A as well since the definition of 'grey A' is fairly broad. However, grey A's in general don't require emotional attachment as much as demisexuals to experience attraction.


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## LexiFlame (Aug 9, 2012)

saintless said:


> I have a question all the LGBT people here... good LGBT movies?


Boys Don't Cry
Brokeback Mountain
Shelter
Longtime Companion
Fucking Amal (Swedish Version: Show Me Love) trust me, it's better than its name portrays
Saving Face


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## LarinLazet (Aug 4, 2012)

@dreamcurse;
I quite understand asexuality, I'm also asexual. Thank you for answering though. But the frequency/infrequency of sexual attraction as well as sex drive are what I want to understand. There are many shades of gray... I want to know the reasoning behind each one. I probably should have asked clearer questions:

Did you come to the conclusion you were Gray-A due to infrequent attraction? Or was it based on lack or attraction and sex drive? How long did it take you to come to this conclusion, did you simply just "know"? 

Also, this is more of a general question, but how does attraction actually feel to you?


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

I have a question. Does anyone consider themselves third gender? If you do, why?


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## Drewbie (Apr 28, 2010)

killerB said:


> I have a question. Does anyone consider themselves third gender? If you do, why?


Third gender in what sense? The term has a history and broad range of use. My gender does not correlate to the gender binary, I am neither a man nor woman, but I don't call myself third gender because it has a history of describing mostly people who's gender is not similar to my own and is not widely in use in western culture. As to why: how does anyone know their gender? I know I am not a man, I know I am not a woman, and while my gender doesn't have a recognized name or place in western society I know other people of my gender (and other non-binary genders) and do my best to create a space in which we can function and be recognized.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

Fitz Cabbage said:


> Third gender in what sense? The term has a history and broad range of use. My gender does not correlate to the gender binary, I am neither a man nor woman, but I don't call myself third gender because it has a history of describing mostly people who's gender is not similar to my own and is not widely in use in western culture. As to why: how does anyone know their gender? I know I am not a man, I know I am not a woman, and while my gender doesn't have a recognized name or place in western society I know other people of my gender (and other non-binary genders) and do my best to create a space in which we can function and be recognized.


I am curious since these things can be confusing. Are you referring to that you like neither a man nor a woman in the way transsexuals feel like the opposite sex to that their biology dictates? Or are you referring to neither feeling like you fit into the gender men nor women are suppose to be?

If the latter is the case, then I feel the same way. I am woman, both biologically and psychologically, however I am neither masculine or feminine. I exist in a wonderful gray area of the two. I believe most people do, but I am talking about how I am almost in the middle.


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## Drewbie (Apr 28, 2010)

saintless said:


> I am curious since these things can be confusing. Are you referring to that you like neither a man nor a woman in the way transsexuals feel like the opposite sex to that their biology dictates? Or are you referring to neither feeling like you fit into the gender men nor women are suppose to be?
> 
> If the latter is the case, then I feel the same way. I am woman, both biologically and psychologically, however I am neither masculine or feminine. I exist in a wonderful gray area of the two. I believe most people do, but I am talking about how I am almost in the middle.


The former. I experience gender dysphoria in the body that I have, but I would experience the same level of, though different, gender dysphoria in the body of my assumed opposite sex. I am a transgender person and will physically transition if I ever have the opportunity, though my transition would not look like a transition most transitions from one binary gender to another. Ideally I would become completely physically androgynous but that's is not necessarily a realistic goal for me. I suppose if I had to pick a word for my gender besides non-binary, which is my preferred term, I might use neutrois because it fits fairly well and more importantly it's a pretty word.


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## quadrivium (Nov 6, 2011)

LarinLazet said:


> @_dreamcurse_;
> I quite understand asexuality, I'm also asexual. Thank you for answering though. But the frequency/infrequency of sexual attraction as well as sex drive are what I want to understand. There are many shades of gray... I want to know the reasoning behind each one. I probably should have asked clearer questions:
> 
> Did you come to the conclusion you were Gray-A due to infrequent attraction? Or was it based on lack or attraction and sex drive? How long did it take you to come to this conclusion, did you simply just "know"?
> ...


Yes it is different than demisexuality, but you can identify as both. 

Gray A is kind of bizarre because it literally means you are just on a spectrum. It never points to where or why, but that's where you exist. I experience attraction in limits, for various reasons, and don't feel the need to act on it. 
That is a really general and vague answer, sorry. Now that I've put myself out there, I'm realizing I would rather answer these questions via PM.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

Fitz Cabbage said:


> The former. I experience gender dysphoria in the body that I have, but I would experience the same level of, though different, gender dysphoria in the body of my assumed opposite sex. I am a transgender person and will physically transition if I ever have the opportunity, though my transition would not look like a transition most transitions from one binary gender to another. Ideally I would become completely physically androgynous but that's is not necessarily a realistic goal for me. I suppose if I had to pick a word for my gender besides non-binary, which is my preferred term, I might use neutrois because it fits fairly well and more importantly it's a pretty word.


Yeh. You see, I am under the impression that 'sex' and 'gender' are not strictly synonymous. I would regard that as a desire to change your sex rather than gender. However, I don't think there is exactly a common consensus what those two words precisely represent.


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## quadrivium (Nov 6, 2011)

EDIT: Feel free to PM me if you have a specific question about the Gray-A spectrum.


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## Drewbie (Apr 28, 2010)

saintless said:


> Yeh. You see, I am under the impression that 'sex' and 'gender' are not strictly synonymous. I would regard that as a desire to change your sex rather than gender. However, I don't think there is exactly a common consensus what those two words precisely represent.


I don't particularly care to make a distinction between sex and gender unless asked to by a specific person whose sex or gender I am discussing. It doesn't make a difference to me, if for instance a trans woman decides to not or cannot transition hormonally or through surgery I'm not going to think of her body as being male. Other people may, but I won't make that distinction unless I'm told that's what she prefers. Likewise, I don't always make that distinction when speaking of myself because I find it to be fairly irrelevant.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

Fitz Cabbage said:


> I don't particularly care to make a distinction between sex and gender unless asked to by a specific person whose sex or gender I am discussing. It doesn't make a difference to me, if for instance a trans woman decides to not or cannot transition hormonally or through surgery I'm not going to think of her body as being male. Other people may, but I won't make that distinction unless I'm told that's what she prefers. Likewise, I don't always make that distinction when speaking of myself because I find it to be fairly irrelevant.


I was speaking more of word usage and descriptors rather than the phenomena. I do philosophically agree that people may choose to call themselves whatever they please, but practically speaking it would be nice if we could all agree that certain words denotate certain things and there was less muddled usage of these certain words. 

But, oh. Sex and gender... are complicated things even to those of us who are somewhat educated on the matters. It's no wonder others are constantly screwing up.


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## KINGoftheAMAZONS (Jun 21, 2011)

Snakecharmer said:


> At what age did you realize what your sexual preference is?


I realized that I was gay at the age of 12. I accepted it at first, but then I underwent an attempted "sexual conversion" through prayer around the age of 19. And to solidify my "impending change", I engaged in online (and public) debates condemning homosexuality as a sin, and at one point, I was "counseling" other people into the ways of rejecting their _sinful lifestyles_, and accepting their new lives, and God-ordained heterosexual orientations as "new creatures" in Christ. I was a mess . 

However, due to particular circumstances, I eventually re-accepted myself as a gay woman when I was 20 years old, and with a completely different outlook on sexual orientation (and religion) than I had just a year before.



> What was coming out like (if you have come out to family, friends, etc)?


Coming out to my friends wasn't difficult at all, considering the fact that they (as well as the entire teaching staff at my middle school) thought something romantic was going on between me and my female ENFP friend at the time. Basically, what happened was that even though my friends suspected that I might be gay, they still weren't sure, and so they continued to try to set me up with boys. Finally I couldn't take it anymore, and I just announced to every single one of them that, I didn't like boys, I liked girls. And that was the end of that.

As far as family is concerned, I'm only out to my father, brother, and 2 first cousins. Both my father and brother asked me if I was gay before I even had the chance to come out to them first. Both of them accept me for who I am, but are still a little uncomfortable around the subject at the same time. I dread the day that I finally come out to my mother. She's a Minister, and naturally, has very strong opinions against gay people. To her, being gay is just all about lust. She's always talking negatively about the gay children of her friends. I wonder how she'll react when I tell her that she shouldn't talk shit about her friend's gay children, considering that she too has a gay child?


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## KINGoftheAMAZONS (Jun 21, 2011)

Lexibear said:


> Boys Don't Cry
> Brokeback Mountain
> Shelter
> Longtime Companion
> ...


I'd like to add to this list:

Bound (which is in my opinion, the only "good" lesbian movie..._)
When Night is Falling
The Incredible Adventure of Two Girls in Love
Touch of Pink


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## LarinLazet (Aug 4, 2012)

quadrivium said:


> Yes it is different than demisexuality, but you can identify as both.
> 
> Gray A is kind of bizarre because it literally means you are just on a spectrum. It never points to where or why, but that's where you exist. I experience attraction in limits, for various reasons, and don't feel the need to act on it.
> That is a really general and vague answer, sorry. Now that I've put myself out there, I'm realizing I would rather answer these questions via PM.


 I can quite understand not wanting to answer the questions within the thread. Thank you for the reply, it's alright even if it is vague.


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## WickedQueen (Jun 1, 2009)

Do you have any sex preference for porn movies? For example, if you're a lesbian, do you feel arouse when you watch gay and straight porn? Or if you're gay, do you feel arouse when you watch lesbian and straight porn?


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## KINGoftheAMAZONS (Jun 21, 2011)

WickedQueen said:


> Do you have any sex preference for porn movies? For example, if you're a lesbian, do you feel arouse when you watch gay and straight porn? Or if you're gay, do you feel arouse when you watch lesbian and straight porn?


As a lesbian I quite enjoy gay and straight porn. I like lesbian porn too though (but only when it is made by lesbian/bisexual/ queer female directors). I'm not turned on by the men in gay/straight porn, but I do get turned on by watching them fuck other people.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

WickedQueen said:


> Do you have any sex preference for porn movies? For example, if you're a lesbian, do you feel arouse when you watch gay and straight porn? Or if you're gay, do you feel arouse when you watch lesbian and straight porn?


I don't watch porn for the record. Seriously. 

However as a polysexual, the little porn I have seen has included hetero sex, gay man sex, and lesbian sex. Funny enough, gay man porn has done more for me than hetero. Lesbian works the best though as long as it doesn't have blonde bimbos who don't actually seem gay but rather gay for pay.


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## aliceinbrc (Sep 10, 2012)

You know, I thought this thread might be a little disappointing, but I'm seriously fascinated ... PARTICULARLY by the bisexual contributors who were grousing earlier about having been told to "pick a side." How deliciously SJ of your tormenters!

It's interesting because sexuality is one of those things that almost exclusively falls into the Se function. One might be able to accept that someone is not the sexuality that they were "expected" to be, but SURELY people must have a sexuality that is easily definable _when you get right down to it_. This is because no matter what personality type you are, sex is almost universally perceived of as a physical act. It may have meaning beyond physicality depending on the person (or group) participating, but it is understood as predominatly an immediate, physical act.

Building off of that, I would refine the idea that sexuality is not a "choice" by suggesting that while the inate sex drive is clearly biological, being any iteration of "gay"--_as a demographic construct--_unquestionably requires self-identity, which is an conscious act. The ever-growing alphabet soup of sexual variants (many of which are represented in this thread) is a reflection of how labeling sexual constructs is a failed concept.

Take this example: When I was in college, someone hung a poster in my dorm--an ad for a new kind of razor, I think. Anyway, the picture on the poster was the back of the head and neck of a shirtless and very muscular guy. When I first saw this poster, I (being 19 and characteristically revved up 23.5 hours out of the day) experienced this sudden and uncontrolable swell of sexual attraction. Now, I would guess that even the most open-minded and quarlesome NTPs would say "well, yeah, the hot guy made you horny ... QED." Indeed, undoubtedly after running back to my room for 5-6 minutes (ahem), I interpretted the significance of this event as nothing more than being further confirming evidence that I was a big ol' gaywad.

(By the way, the prohibition on epithets is a little cruel, I must say. I appreciate the desire to encourage open discussion without bigotted personal attacks, but "**************" is among the most perfect NT-constructed euphamisms in our language. So, as Sheila says in "A Chorus Line": "Can we smoke? Can the adults please smoke?")

Anyway, back to my point: it wasn't a guy that got me going. It was a picture ... and only of the back of someone's head and neck. This flare-up represented "gayness" only insofar as I chose to identify it as such. Maybe I really just get off on paper products and my subsequent acts of gay sex were merely a socially accepted way to engage my taboo lamour du papier.

So, for the bisexuals who are confronted with the "just pick a side" attitude, I understand your frustration, but the idea of truly itinerant sexuality transcends every mode of understanding. The Se's are completely confused that your attraction isn't consistent with gender norms because they see it as a physical response to a specific kind of stimulus. And the Ne (if s/he is really objective) would more likely conclude that you are attracted to people with red hair before s/he would conclude that your attraction has no gender-based limitations.

In other words, being horny (or not) is _not_ a choice, no matter what gets you horny at a given moment. But being "gay" or "bi" or whatever label you adopt absolutely is a choice because it is about self-identification _only_.

I am an ENTP. I fit all the stereotypes of an ENTP. But none of that even comes close to describing my uniqueness. However, it's a very nice precis. So is "gay."


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## LexiFlame (Aug 9, 2012)

WickedQueen said:


> Do you have any sex preference for porn movies? For example, if you're a lesbian, do you feel arouse when you watch gay and straight porn? Or if you're gay, do you feel arouse when you watch lesbian and straight porn?


I'm pansexual, and I prefer gay porn above all the rest. Occassionally I can get into straight porn, but I've never really been able to get into lesbian or trans porn. I think because those two kinds are usually so overdone and fake. Sorry, this probably doesn't help you determine porn preference in relation to sexual orientation in the way you meant it to :3


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

saintless said:


> I am curious since these things can be confusing. Are you referring to that you like neither a man nor a woman in the way transsexuals feel like the opposite sex to that their biology dictates? Or are you referring to neither feeling like you fit into the gender men nor women are suppose to be?
> 
> If the latter is the case, then I feel the same way. I am woman, both biologically and psychologically, however I am neither masculine or feminine. I exist in a wonderful gray area of the two. I believe most people do, but I am talking about how I am almost in the middle.



Yes, this exactly. 

When I say Third gender, I mean not fitting into the binary, or outside of the gender binary. I feel that I do not fit within the spectrum of masculine or feminine. I am genetically female, but I consider my actual gender to be Femme. So, I do claim the third gender label as I encompass both genders. 


@Fitz I like the word Neutrois.


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

WickedQueen said:


> Do you have any sex preference for porn movies? For example, if you're a lesbian, do you feel arouse when you watch gay and straight porn? Or if you're gay, do you feel arouse when you watch lesbian and straight porn?




I prefer lesbian porn, but I also enjoy gay porn. I don't care for straight porn at all. 

I just had this conversation with a friend. She only watches lesbian or straight porn and wonders how I could get hot over two guys getting it on, since I am a lesbian, but not want to watch a man and naked woman having sex. I think that with two people of the same sex(male or female) it is more equal to me, it is not the male domination thing happening as with most straight porn movies. Usually the guy is pretty much in control, getting his rocks off and it's all about that. In a lesbian or gay porn, the focus is on pleasing your partner more and it just seems more giving, and like lovemaking to me.


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## Drewbie (Apr 28, 2010)

WickedQueen said:


> Do you have any sex preference for porn movies? For example, if you're a lesbian, do you feel arouse when you watch gay and straight porn? Or if you're gay, do you feel arouse when you watch lesbian and straight porn?


I am polysexual (or pansexual or bisexual, whatever) and I'm okay with any gender in porn but I actually tend to prefer watching masturbation over coupled sex.


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## WickedQueen (Jun 1, 2009)

Lexibear said:


> I'm pansexual, and I prefer gay porn above all the rest. Occassionally I can get into straight porn, but I've never really been able to get into lesbian or trans porn. I think because those two kinds are usually so overdone and fake. Sorry, this probably doesn't help you determine porn preference in relation to sexual orientation in the way you meant it to :3


Nah, it's fine. I just wanna know different answers.

I'm straight, but like you, I do prefer gay porn. And like killerB, I like gay/lesbian porn more than straight porn.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

killerB said:


> Yes, this exactly.
> 
> When I say Third gender, I mean not fitting into the binary, or outside of the gender binary. I feel that I do not fit within the spectrum of masculine or feminine. I am genetically female, but I consider my actual gender to be Femme. So, I do claim the third gender label as I encompass both genders.
> 
> ...


Isn't femme feminine? Yet, you consider yourself a third gender?


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

Yes, Femme usually is seen as only a presentation of Femininity(on the outside). However, I don't feel female. I don't feel male either.(I'm not androgenous) I feel like I encompass both genders and act accordingly. I float between the two. I feel most comfortable moving between both genders when the need is there. Therefore, I see my gender as Femme. 

*Binary gender system*--- Concept that there are two genders: man and woman. Many believe that Butch and Femme disprove the concept of a binary gender system. Some Butches and Femmes claim rights to a third gender.


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## abigaleblues (Apr 11, 2012)

@WickedQueen I'm bi but like to watch lesbian porn, more like erotica than two pornstars being over the top. I like all shapes and sizes and ethnicity when it comes to women. I get uncomfortable watching men in porn sometimes, so I much prefer the real thing. Hence lesbian porn. Straight porn can be outright silly sometimes.
@saintless
I wouldn't consider this necessarily a gay movie, but I love the French actress in that horror movie High Tension. The plot isn't the best, but it's horror, and she makes it worth the watch. 

I totally lol'ed about Bound early. Gina Gershon! Now I'm thinking about Show Girls... would that be a gay movie? Almost? haha.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

killerB said:


> Yes, Femme usually is seen as only a presentation of Femininity(on the outside). However, I don't feel female. I don't feel male either.(I'm not androgenous) I feel like I encompass both genders and act accordingly. I float between the two. I feel most comfortable moving between both genders when the need is there. Therefore, I see my gender as Femme.
> 
> *Binary gender system*--- Concept that there are two genders: man and woman. Many believe that Butch and Femme disprove the concept of a binary gender system. Some Butches and Femmes claim rights to a third gender.


Perhaps one could say femme is female neutral? When used in a certain context, but a lot of words have meanings based on context.


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## KINGoftheAMAZONS (Jun 21, 2011)

abigaleblues said:


> Gina Gershon!


I love that woman! :blushed:



> Now I'm thinking about Show Girls... would that be a gay movie? Almost? haha.


An abomination? Yes. A gay movie? No. Though they tried to play up the lesbian subtext. I hate when raunchy movies/t.v shows play on lesbian subtext but never really let any genuine _lesbianism_ unfold. It's annoying.


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

saintless said:


> Perhaps one could say femme is female neutral? When used in a certain context, but a lot of words have meanings based on context.



I like Female Neutral, I think that sums me up very well, it makes sense. There are other types of Femmes that identify highly with being female(High Femmes) or even more towards the male spectrum(Tomboi Femmes), so yes it would depend upon the context and woman herself to indicate her gender preference. Gender is how you feel on the inside, not how you look on the outside.(That is why I get so angry with the LGBT people who give Trans people a hard time). 

They have actually had many studies on gender presentation but the best I have read is one called 'A Persistant Desire, inside lesbian gender'. (It is a big PDF file).


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## WickedQueen (Jun 1, 2009)

abigaleblues said:


> @_WickedQueen_ I'm bi but like to watch lesbian porn, more like erotica than two pornstars being over the top. I like all shapes and sizes and ethnicity when it comes to women. I get uncomfortable watching men in porn sometimes, so I much prefer the real thing. Hence lesbian porn. Straight porn can be outright silly sometimes.


Oh, I see. I like seeing a man whining like a woman while being fucked. Most of the time, I fantasized myself as a man and fuck another man. *evil smirks*

Lesbian porn is fine, but I don't find myself turned on as much as with gay porn. Straight porn is just too boring for me.

But when I'm in love with a man, my fantasy turn into me as a woman and him as a man doing wild (straight) sex.


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## quadrivium (Nov 6, 2011)

KINGoftheAMAZONS said:


> I love that woman! :blushed:
> 
> 
> 
> An abomination? Yes. A gay movie? No. Though they tried to play up the lesbian subtext. I hate when raunchy movies/t.v shows play on lesbian subtext but never really let any genuine _lesbianism_ unfold. It's annoying.


I've never thought of it as a lesbian movie. The only people I know that have seen it are gay men for the kitsch factor. 
They play it on Logo frequently. Are they perpetuating stereotypes by doing this? (serious question)


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## KINGoftheAMAZONS (Jun 21, 2011)

quadrivium said:


> I've never thought of it as a lesbian movie. The only people I know that have seen it are gay men for the kitsch factor.
> They play it on Logo frequently. Are they perpetuating stereotypes by doing this? (serious question)


I'm not sure if Logo showing show girl's perpetuates stereotypes. But this Logo show certainly did: 







But to be honest, I'm very disappointed with Logo as a channel, because I feel as though they don't capitalize on the channel's existence. Surely there are plenty of talented LGBT writers out there in which at least 5 different sitcoms could have been created specifically as Logo originals?


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## KINGoftheAMAZONS (Jun 21, 2011)

WickedQueen said:


> Oh, I see. I like seeing a man whining like a woman while being fucked. Most of the time, I fantasized myself as a man and fuck another man. *evil smirks*


Very interesting! I thought I was the only one who liked that aspect of gay porn. I also like to see the scenarios in which supposed heterosexual men are being fucked by a man for the first time. I love to see them sighing in pure pleasure after the initial penetration starts .


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## quadrivium (Nov 6, 2011)

KINGoftheAMAZONS said:


> I'm not sure if Logo showing show girl's perpetuates stereotypes. But this Logo show certainly did:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's pretty embarrassing and shameful. There's endless potential there: not even just sitcoms, but documentaries, good movies, taping of theatre etc. 
I have been known to enjoy Drag Race and I think that it might be their cash cow.


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## KINGoftheAMAZONS (Jun 21, 2011)

quadrivium said:


> There's endless potential there: not even just sitcoms, but documentaries, *good movies*


Lol, Well, the LGBT world could use some better movies. Transgendered individuals are barely represented in movies. Lesbian movies just tend to suck. I hate to say that, but it's true (even though I love most of them :tongue. I'd like to see more accurate representations of bisexuals as well. Right now I'm working on several screenplays and novels centering around queer characters. But I fear that my story conceptions are a bit too "grand" for the kind of budget that LGBT movies are normally subject to


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## quadrivium (Nov 6, 2011)

KINGoftheAMAZONS said:


> Lol, Well, the LGBT world could use some better movies. Transgendered individuals are barely represented in movies. Lesbian movies just tend to suck. I hate to say that, but it's true (even though I love most of them :tongue. I'd like to see more accurate representations of bisexuals as well. Right now I'm working on several screenplays and novels centering around queer characters. But I fear that my story conceptions are a bit too "grand" for the kind of budget that LGBT movies are normally subject to


Boys Don't Cry was good, but that's the only one I can think of off the top of my head. 
Hopefully with the next generation we will see better and more realistic story lines for and from the LGBTQA community.


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## KINGoftheAMAZONS (Jun 21, 2011)

quadrivium said:


> Boys Don't Cry was good, but that's the only one I can think of off the top of my head.
> Hopefully with the next generation we will see better and more realistic story lines for and from the LGBTQA community.


I refuse to watch that movie :sad:. I simply can't stomach it. For some reason I just can't watch drawn out rape scenes anymore. It really bothers me.

As far as realistic LGBT movies go, I'd like to see realistic and not so realistic movies. My dream is to one day direct (or at least Produce) epic adventure, fantasy, and Sci-fi movies in which the main characters have primarily same-sex love interests, and or gender queer-isms.


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

FlaviaGemina said:


> Sooo.... these radical feminists are arguing that all women should look and act "girly" or "feminine"? Isn't that reinforcing stereotypes?
> I'm reasonably hetero but I get mistaken for a Sir lots of times (especially by children and people from different countries or a different race). Apparently I'm butch (not in a lesbian sense, just as in looking and dressing like a man), but I don't even do it on purpose, I just happen to walk in a very determined way and I don't like "girly" clothes because they are usually of inferior quality and also I don't feel safe with parts of my body sticking out. (Watch the video in my signature if you want to judge for yourself).
> Anyway.... what would those radical feminists make of someone like me? Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


The movement thankfully has evolved past this grass root mindset. To be honest, most movements are like that when they first start, that is the way they draw attention to themselves and the social problems they are trying to fix. It's needed to get the 'party'' started, so to speak. Then, they usually change or evolve from there. 




> Anyway, I've got a question. I used to be kind of emotionally attracted to some girls, but only if I knew them well. If I didn't have a husband, I don't think I'd mind being in a relationship with a woman if I liked her well enough. But I doubt whether she'd get much fun out of me physically. If I'm physically attracted to a man, I can usually tell because I'll have naughty thoughts about him. But I can go for years without feeling any physical attraction to women (even if it's a woman I used to feel attracted to in one way or another) and then I'll suddenly feel incredibly "gay" in a physical way for a day or two. However, it's not so much about what I would get out of it, but rather about doing things _for them_ if you know what I mean. What does that make me? A demisexual? A lazy bisexual? Or is it just some hormonal phenomenon? My slavish nature compelling me to please women? *edit to add*: Or does that mean that I'm sexually dominant and women are (stereotypically) more likely to be passive than men? It does annoy me awfully if a guy thinks he knows everything and wants to move all the time and do all the work.... unless he's obedient
> If it's any help, I wouldn't call myself bi-curious. The idea of "wanting to try what sex with a woman is like" doesn't make much sense to me, because I can't see myself trying things with random people. I'd have to know them and like them as a person.



Most Bisexuals are not equally attracted to males and females at any given time. (50/50) They may date a man then a woman, or all women for a while then men, or any mix of those. Some just know it inside of themselves that they love the person they are with, but that if they were to lose their partner, they could be happy having a relationship with the other sex. Bisexuality is the fact you can be emotionally and sexually fufilled with either sex. 


You could say you are Bisexual, and attracted to both sexes, mostly males but occasional females, you can say you are Demisexual and only attracted to those you are emotionally connected to and know, no matter what sex, or you can identify as straight as you are with a man. You could also choose sexually fluid if you wish. I even know some people who use the straight lable but occasionally go with the same sex, and never identify as LGBT. 

You get to decide what you want to be called. No one but yourself can make that decision. You know what feels right for you. There is no right or wrong here. It's what makes you comfortable. I hope this helps answer you question.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

@FlaviaGemina - 

If I can offer my two cents without being taken too seriously, perhaps you are are hetero-demi-homosexual with a side of biromanticism. 

I love sexuality. 

Though, I have always been a fan of the much simpler and rather nifty 'heteroflexible' identifier. For a while, that's what I believed myself to be until my de-homophobified (just made that word up) mind started to look at the world without heteronormative filters on. 

...I totally could throw another obscure, sexuality-related word in this short post. Don't try me. :wink:


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

unINFalliPle said:


> For people who are bisexual, did you have to have a sexual experience with a person of the same sex to know that you were attracted them or did you just know beforehand? I'm attracted to men. I find some girls pretty but I don't feel the inclination to be near them like I would a guy. But.. before I had a boyfriend I didn't know what being that way with one was like.. so I don't know if my attraction developed after having this experience. I don't know if it was the societal ideal that made me that way. I'm sorry if this doesn't make sense.



_I knew I was attracted to women before I ever slept with one.(I had been sleeping with males exclusively) Once I did, I knew that I wanted to be with them, but I had not been truly 100% sure before then. I have a friend, who identified as lesbian, and wondered if she was actually Bisexual. She decided to go get herself a boyfriend. Her other friends about had a heart attack! She said that she had a good time with him, and he was pretty good in bed but decided she was not bisexual because she didn't feel complete with him, as well as women. She retained her lesbian lable.

If you are wondering about it, may I suggest that if you are single, go and try it out. Go and date a girl and see what happens. It will answer the questions you have inside of yourself. _


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

unINFalliPle said:


> For people who are bisexual, did you have to have a sexual experience with a person of the same sex to know that you were attracted them or did you just know beforehand? I'm attracted to men. I find some girls pretty but I don't feel the inclination to be near them like I would a guy. But.. before I had a boyfriend I didn't know what being that way with one was like.. so I don't know if my attraction developed after having this experience. I don't know if it was the societal ideal that made me that way. I'm sorry if this doesn't make sense.


Sexual attraction is something you don't necessarily develop while having sex.

I don't need to actually be in front of or talking to someone to know that I WANT to talk to them/get to know them better. You don't need to hold hands with someone before knowing you want to. The first time I ever wanted to kiss someone, it was the strongest urge I had ever felt before in my life; I didn't need to actually be in the process of kissing before leaning in for it. 

It does irritate me that there are those who will insist that experimentation is the only way to know for sure. You'll know when you're attracted to someone. If you haven't felt that attraction yet, there's no need to define yourself just yet. Just let yourself be free and pay attention to what draws you to people, how you act around people; who you flirt with/"check out" (and how you feel when you do it) are all better things (in my non professional opinion) to take into consideration.


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## unINFalliPle (Jul 8, 2012)

Thanks killerB and voicetrocity. I know feel more confident that I'm straight. I can't imagine wanting to get intimate with a girl like I've felt around guys. Before being with my ex, I did want to be with him, but I sort of had to learn to hold hands, cuddle, etc. It wasn't something I was used to. But I think that's normal.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

unINFalliPle said:


> For people who are bisexual, did you have to have a sexual experience with a person of the same sex to know that you were attracted them or did you just know beforehand? I'm attracted to men. I find some girls pretty but I don't feel the inclination to be near them like I would a guy. But.. before I had a boyfriend I didn't know what being that way with one was like.. so I don't know if my attraction developed after having this experience. I don't know if it was the societal ideal that made me that way. I'm sorry if this doesn't make sense.


I am a little late with this question, but I don't always see every post. 
...ssshh. 

Anyhow, I have quite frankly always been attracted to girls. I just didn't realize it because my heteronormative mind didn't understand it/I could rationalize every girl crush I had. 

However, I didn't come to realize I have bisexual tendencies until I fell in love with a girl. Though, it took me almost a year for me to conclude my strong feelings for her were romantic/sexual attraction. I kind of forget what exactly made the lightbulb go off, but it was only until then that I realize I couldn't be straight. It made no sense. (Also, she is the only person I have ever loved, so... new territory for me all around.)

However, I was a virgin then. Never had sex with either a guy or a girl. I don't think sex is necessary to discover the probably erroenously-named concept sexuality. People fall in love without ever sleeping with each other all the time. Sex has nothing to with it. However when sex does come into play, I don't need to get someone into bed with me for me to understand that I find them attractive. No one whether they be straight or otherwise need to do that.


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## FlaviaGemina (May 3, 2012)

saintless said:


> @_FlaviaGemina_ -
> 
> If I can offer my two cents without being taken too seriously, perhaps you are are *hetero-demi-homosexual* with a side of biromanticism.


I love made-up words.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

FlaviaGemina said:


> I love made-up words.


Hey now. I only made up one of those words... that is just a mutant splice of different vocab.


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

saintless said:


> I am a little late with this question, but I don't always see every post.
> ...ssshh.
> 
> Anyhow, I have quite frankly always been attracted to girls. I just didn't realize it because my heteronormative mind didn't understand it/I could rationalize every girl crush I had.
> ...


That is kinda how it happened for me, that is why I said once I did get with a girl, I knew 100%.(that first kiss and I had NO doubt! LOL) I knew I was attracted to girls, but I just wanted to say it was a phase, I tried to prove I was straight by dating guys. You can't force attraction, but if you have a doubt about your sexuality(because of attraction) it is good to date to find out, answer your own question. No one can tell you who you are attracted to, only you know that.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

killerB said:


> That is kinda how it happened for me, that is why I said once I did get with a girl, I knew 100%.(that first kiss and I had NO doubt! LOL) I knew I was attracted to girls, but I just wanted to say it was a phase, I tried to prove I was straight by dating guys. You can't force attraction, but if you have a doubt about your sexuality(because of attraction) it is good to date to find out, answer your own question. No one can tell you who you are attracted to, only you know that.


I think "experimentation" is particularily important because of heteronormativity. Though, it is true that you can't know what somethig is like until you do it. Attraction isn't all visual, and the resulting sexual act is certainly more tactile than not. I guess my point is that it's not required. It just helps.


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## Aquarian (Jun 17, 2012)

saintless said:


> I have a question all the LGBT people here... good LGBT movies?


"But I'm a Cheerleader!"


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

Aquarian said:


> "But I'm a Cheerleader!"


That seems like such a ridiculous movie, but possibly in a very good way.


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## Brian1 (May 7, 2011)

I thought High Art was good for an independent movie. This is more I went through a where are the Brat Pack now phase, and I have a thing for Ally Sheedy. I think that was according to wikipedia, a LGBT movie. I'm not sure what you guys think of it though? High Art was supposed to be Sheedy's comeback film, but it served more as a launching pad for Radha Mitchell.


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

saintless said:


> That seems like such a ridiculous movie, but possibly in a very good way.


I haven't seen that movie in over 10 years! I actually had to look up the movie to remind myself of the plot, which I had trouble remembering.Though I do, acutely, remember feeling confused and uncomfortable while watching it; and I have a feeling it's because I could relate to the main character. I also remember thinking the colors and asthetics were a little much. 
I wish netflix had it on their "instantly viewable" titles, bleh.



killerB said:


> That is kinda how it happened for me, that is why I said once I did get with a girl, I knew 100%.(that first kiss and I had NO doubt! LOL) I knew I was attracted to girls, but I just wanted to say it was a phase, I tried to prove I was straight by dating guys. You can't force attraction, but if you have a doubt about your sexuality(because of attraction) it is good to date to find out, answer your own question. No one can tell you who you are attracted to, only you know that.


Yeah, I went through something similar. I knew who I was attracted to, but was in such denial that even when I did kiss a woman for the first time, I spent a good chunk of time afterwards freaking out and convincing myself that it wasn't "different" than kissing a man. 

-sigh- I was such a mess.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

Brian1 said:


> I thought High Art was good for an independent movie. This is more I went through a where are the Brat Pack now phase, and I have a thing for Ally Sheedy. I think that was according to wikipedia, a LGBT movie. I'm not sure what you guys think of it though? High Art was supposed to be Sheedy's comeback film, but it served more as a launching pad for Radha Mitchell.


For some reason, I didn't want to finish High Art despite enjoying the characters...


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

Brian1 said:


> I thought High Art was good for an independent movie. This is more I went through a where are the Brat Pack now phase, and I have a thing for Ally Sheedy. I think that was according to wikipedia, a LGBT movie. I'm not sure what you guys think of it though? High Art was supposed to be Sheedy's comeback film, but it served more as a launching pad for Radha Mitchell.



We have it but have not watched it yet. I have heard it's very very good however. I liked DEBS, believe it or not. It was just cute and kinda sweet. Not a really big thinking film, but a guilty pleasure. I like to call it Lesbian 'light'.


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

voicetrocity said:


> Yeah, I went through something similar. I knew who I was attracted to, but was in such denial that even when I did kiss a woman for the first time, I spent a good chunk of time afterwards freaking out and convincing myself that it wasn't "different" than kissing a man.
> 
> -sigh- I was such a mess.


I think most of us were. I like to think that my pain resulted in a change, and the world is a better (and easier) place for young people to find themselves in. I have seen my daughters friends come out, and have experiences of them dating both sexes and they find this normal.


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## Aquarian (Jun 17, 2012)

saintless said:


> That seems like such a ridiculous movie, but possibly in a very good way.


It's an awesomely silly and really really good movie. My wife introduced me to it.


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## blackpeppergeneral (Nov 7, 2011)

I don't find bisexual as an appropriate term, though pansexual comes close I don't use that either. Either way, I am quite open to relations with women as well.

Debs, I'll admit that Devon Aoki was probably one of my reasons for watching that movie.

Onto the question:
I am seeking a book recommendation which deals female-female relations in a non-pandering fashion, though is more of an exploration than a romanticised view of two people in love.
A picky reader, but if there is anything close to those traits then I shall read it.


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

I really can't think of too many that are not Romances, or Erotica. 

www.insightoutbooks.com this site caters to the LGBT populace.

Barns and Nobel is a huge bookstore. I have had good luck finding LGBT books online from them also.


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

nrcoggin said:


> I imagine that being gay can leave you feeling alone or isolated at times due to the views of some members in our society. What or who has given you encouragement and made you feel like you are not alone. What did this mean to you?


My best friend has been an immense comfort to me since coming out. The thing I find most comforting? Nothing has changed in our relationship. Sure, we now talk about lgbt issues a bit more than we did before I came out, but that's about it.


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

nrcoggin said:


> I imagine that being gay can leave you feeling alone or isolated at times due to the views of some members in our society. What or who has given you encouragement and made you feel like you are not alone. What did this mean to you?



I was really lucky to have a great co-worker who told me that she knew I was a lesbian, and that she had never picked her friends on their sexuality so it was fine with her. It was so relieveing to have someone who was understanding and supportive. I can't even begin to tell you how much of a difference it made for me personally to just be accepted. I happen to work in Rehab, so there are only 10 therapists. She made the way very easy for me and everyone (all 10 of them) became very protective of me and supportive each in their own way, they never told a soul until I said it was ok. Just having acceptance made me feel like I was human and important. It made the slights and comments and the fact that I don't have equality much easier to bear.


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## Junction0 (Jul 11, 2012)

Is there anyone who 'came out' to mixed upper-middle and upper class families that are liberal, yet with orderly, Victorianesque kind of values that may cause the compromise of the marriage of siblings, and relationships with family members, and other issues in the family if one were to 'come out'?


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

Junction0 said:


> Is there anyone who 'came out' to mixed upper-middle and upper class families that are liberal, yet with orderly, Victorianesque kind of values that may cause the compromise of the marriage of siblings, and relationships with family members, and other issues in the family if one were to 'come out'?



I persnally did not have that, but I am sure that someone on the fourms has had that experience. I usually encourage young people to NOT come out to their families unless they know they will be accepted and they have somewhere to go to live if they are not accepted. That may seem odd, but I have had several friends lose thier homes after coming out. 

That being said, sometimes you have to be closeted for everyones comfort(and safety). For instance, my son was uncomfortable with sharing 'personal' info with others, especially that he had two moms. Having been bullied in school myself, I understood and did not push the issue. I appreared at conferences as a single mother and did not mention his step mom, at HER request. That lasted only a year and then he was happy to introduce her as his 'other mom'. He is fine now, but he just went through a difficult period at school, and required some safe time. I was not, and am, not offended. It is ok to not want things all over the school, after all, he had to be there every day. Plus, I am not out to every single person I know, only when I feel safe enough to be. There is a fine line to me about when you disclose you being gay, and when you do not(I am sure some other LGBT peeps will dissagree, which is fine). It is up to you when you disclose and when you do not. 

It it ok to be as out as you are comfortable with.


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## KINGoftheAMAZONS (Jun 21, 2011)

killerB said:


> I usually encourage young people to NOT come out to their families unless they know they will be accepted and they have somewhere to go to live if they are not accepted. That may seem odd, but I have had several friends lose thier homes after coming out.


This ^ is the only reason that I have not come out to my mother yet. I'm afraid that she will kick me out, and I have nowhere to go. I used to think myself a coward because of this, but now I view it as mostly practical. It's a shame that I have lie about who I am just so that I have a roof over my head.



> That being said, sometimes you have to be closeted for everyones comfort(and safety). For instance, my son was uncomfortable with sharing 'personal' info with others, especially that he had two moms. Having been bullied in school myself, I understood and did not push the issue. I appreared at conferences as a single mother and did not mention his step mom, at HER request. That lasted only a year and then he was happy to introduce her as his 'other mom'. He is fine now, but he just went through a difficult period at school, and required some safe time. I was not, and am, not offended. It is ok to not want things all over the school, after all, he had to be there every day. Plus, I am not out to every single person I know, only when I feel safe enough to be. There is a fine line to me about when you disclose you being gay, and when you do not(I am sure some other LGBT peeps will dissagree, which is fine). It is up to you when you disclose and when you do not.


Yeah I agree with all of this. I'm not out at work, and I don't think I ever will be. So I have to tone down my masculinity as well. But then again, I work at a place where certain people are very open about their support for the extermination of homosexuals


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## Junction0 (Jul 11, 2012)

KINGoftheAMAZONS said:


> This ^ is the only reason that I have not come out to my mother yet. I'm afraid that she will kick me out, and I have nowhere to go. I used to think myself a coward because of this, but now I view it as mostly practical. It's a shame that I have lie about who I am just so that I have a roof over my head.


Yes it is a shame. But it also shocks me that even one's mother mayn't accept their child. My parents know and they're fine with it but they believe I can 'change' if I be with women enough over time, and it's kind of a given that I'm to be married and have kids (though I don't really know if I want to anymore..) :/ Interestingly enough, though I don't know how reliable their sources are, it implies here that INFPs are the least likely to marry lol.



KINGoftheAMAZONS said:


> Yeah I agree with all of this. I'm not out at work, and I don't think I ever will be. So I have to tone down my masculinity as well. But then again, I work at a place where certain people are very open about their support for the extermination of homosexuals


At least you know it's just because it's work. I got a bit angry reading the extermination part  It's so strange how there are so, so many homosexuals and yet no-one not homosexual seems to understand that it's not a choice, or the extent to which it's not a choice. I assume they still see homosexual attraction as a result of debauchery or over-exposure to/desensitization by the media. Maybe it is the latter, but that doesn't mean it can be reversed, or else there would have been a 'cure' thousands of years ago.


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## LexiFlame (Aug 9, 2012)

killerB said:


> I persnally did not have that, but I am sure that someone on the fourms has had that experience. I usually encourage young people to NOT come out to their families unless they know they will be accepted and they have somewhere to go to live if they are not accepted. That may seem odd, but I have had several friends lose thier homes after coming out.
> It it ok to be as out as you are comfortable with.


*sigh* the difficulties of some conservative mindsets. I've only come out to a few friends, who really don't understand much about any sexual orientation other than being straight. And when I spoke of how hard it was to keep it from my mother, a couple of them said "Well, if you're into guys and girls, just tone down the girl part and stick with guys until you move out." -_- That's not the biggest issue though! I feel so distanced from my mother because I know she would absolutely not accept a big part of what I am, and would definitely kick me out. And she seems to realize it in a way, but deny it to herself. She's bullied me into being "feminine", forcing me to wear pink and girly clothes, arranging "dates" with her friends' sons, and always putting down the LGBT community and pointing out how they are often mistreated, and deserving of it in her opinion. But yes, for safety's sake, that's the way it has to be until I move out.


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## KINGoftheAMAZONS (Jun 21, 2011)

Junction0 said:


> At least you know it's just because it's work. I got a bit angry reading the extermination part  It's so strange how there are so, so many homosexuals and yet no-one not homosexual seems to understand that it's not a choice, or the extent to which it's not a choice. I assume they still see homosexual attraction as a result of debauchery or over-exposure to/desensitization by the media. Maybe it is the latter, but that doesn't mean it can be reversed, or else there would have been a 'cure' thousands of years ago.


Yes, well the idea of homosexual extermination disgusts me on many levels. And I wouldn't say that all non-homosexuals lack the understanding that being gay isn't a choice. In fact, there are many heterosexual allies to the LGBT community, and most of them understand that homosexuals don't choose to be gay. But the individuals who told to me to my face that they support the execution of gay people, they do believe that being gay is a choice. They believe that homosexuality is of the devil. These are the same people who claim to love everyone, but at the same time boast of their hatred of gay people. We live in a despicable world.


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## KINGoftheAMAZONS (Jun 21, 2011)

LexiFlame said:


> I feel so distanced from my mother because I know she would absolutely not accept a big part of what I am, and would definitely kick me out. And she seems to realize it in a way, but deny it to herself. She's bullied me into being "feminine", forcing me to wear pink and girly clothes, arranging "dates" with her friends' sons, and always putting down the LGBT community and pointing out how they are often mistreated, and deserving of it in her opinion. But yes, for safety's sake, that's the way it has to be until I move out.


My mother did similar things to me. She tried to make me wear more feminine clothing. But I've always been masculine, and I've always been more comfortable in clothes that have been traditionally marketed towards men. Of course I tone it down a bit when I'm around her. But only a bit. I still look "suspect", but not so butch to where people would always assume that I'm gay. But that's only when I'm around her, because any other time I assume my natural masculine look.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

This is a generic, pretty universal question (such that it's not limited to LGBT people), but I am going to ask it regardless.

If this pertains to you and your experiences, how do you manage to stay friends with a straight girl you're interested in? Or a straight guy if you're not lesbian as well as any other combination that's analogous to your life's situation?


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## mackenzye (Sep 19, 2012)

saintless said:


> If this pertains to you and your experiences, how do you manage to stay friends with a straight girl you're interested in? Or a straight guy if you're not lesbian as well as any other combination that's analogous to your life's situation?


Ahhhh the dreaded straight-girl crush...

You remind yourself that they are straight, that will* likely *not change (my ex was "straight" when I met her), and if you value the friendship you won't allow your romantic fantasies to show through and make her/him uncomfortable.


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

KINGoftheAMAZONS said:


> This ^ is the only reason that I have not come out to my mother yet. I'm afraid that she will kick me out, and I have nowhere to go. I used to think myself a coward because of this, but now I view it as mostly practical. It's a shame that I have lie about who I am just so that I have a roof over my head.



There is no shame in making sure you have a place to live, as long as it does not kill your spirit to stay there. I am so sorry I even have to have that opinion and give that advice. Hang in there, some day you will be old enough and able to say who you are. I was much older before I came out to anyone myself. It all happens in good time. Just stay safe. That is the important part.


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## JoanCrawford (Sep 27, 2012)

It's much harder than it sounds. I thought it would be a walk in the park, considering my parents were very tolerant (and they were), but I still felt a sense of guilt after I told them. But I realized that I had to stop living for others and start living for myself for a change. If I only have one life to live I wanted to live it right.


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

saintless said:


> This is a generic, pretty universal question (such that it's not limited to LGBT people), but I am going to ask it regardless.
> 
> If this pertains to you and your experiences, how do you manage to stay friends with a straight girl you're interested in? Or a straight guy if you're not lesbian as well as any other combination that's analogous to your life's situation?



Unfortunately, I did it in a non conventional way. The crush I had was on my boyfriends, best friends, girl. Her name was Lisa, and she had big green eyes, and long blond hair. I would help her comb it out as I was very gentle and she would tug through it. I really looked forward to combing her hair for her. She never had a clue. We remained friends because I never said anything, and after combing her hair, I would go screw my boyfriend silly because I was so turned on from being with her. I would think about her the whole darn time too. LOL 

It was an awful situation and I wish I would have had the guts to just make that move on her. I laugh now, but at 16, it was all very angsty.


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## LexiFlame (Aug 9, 2012)

saintless said:


> This is a generic, pretty universal question (such that it's not limited to LGBT people), but I am going to ask it regardless.
> 
> If this pertains to you and your experiences, how do you manage to stay friends with a straight girl you're interested in? Or a straight guy if you're not lesbian as well as any other combination that's analogous to your life's situation?


It can be really difficult! I'm definitely one to flirt without even realizing it, so sometimes I throw out a flirty comment to a girl I find really attractive or have a crush on, and only realize it when she gives me a stare like  Then I either admit it, or just say I was kidding and watch what I say around them from then on.

When I was 12 there was this 11 year old girl that lived in my apartment complex that was incredibly cute. Undoubtedly the cutest girl I had ever seen. She had very white skin, hazel/green eyes that sparkled all the time, and bright red hair that was always done up in some fancy style. We went everywhere together for one summer, running around the neighborhood, me in jean capris and a short sleeved hoodie (literally that was all I'd wear that summer) and her in these really nice sun dresses. She was a complete girly girl, but I loved it, and I had the biggest crush on her! One day I told her that I was bisexual (hadn't yet discovered I was pansexual) and liked her like a boy would like her (tried to explain it in a way she would understand) and she was really freaked out. It was a blow to my ego, but luckily by that fall I had met another bisexual girl that was as interested in me as I was in her.


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## Biracial (Sep 8, 2010)

killerB said:


> Typical Butch-Femme sex. .
> 
> It is not odd for a Butch to strap or pack. It's also not odd for a Femmes to either. It's pretty much up to each woman how she wants to express her sexuality in a relationship. I know there are Gold Star lesbians who think that any type of penetration with a Dildo makes the reciever bisexual, or in desire of a man. My friend is convinced real lesbians don't use any type of toys, another I know of won't perform oral. It's pretty much up to you how you have sex.
> 
> ...


Depends on the stud. 

I'm more interested in studs or ags that like being dickdowned.


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## KINGoftheAMAZONS (Jun 21, 2011)

killerB said:


> There is no shame in making sure you have a place to live, as long as it does not kill your spirit to stay there. I am so sorry I even have to have that opinion and give that advice. Hang in there, some day you will be old enough and able to say who you are. I was much older before I came out to anyone myself. It all happens in good time. Just stay safe. That is the important part.


The reason why I feel guilty is because I'm old enough, but not able to be financially independent. When I lived on my own as I attended film school, I was out to everyone! Hell, I showed up to certain class assignments where we had to dress "professional", dressed in a full man's suit, and I didn't care what anyone thought about it. It was so liberating. But then I had to move back home and, in essence, back in the closet  It doesn't help that my mother is a minister, lol. I wish I had older lesbian couples to hang out with. Only for the fact that it would be great to be surrounded by "elders" who not only accept me, but who can also teach me life experiences that only older queers can teach.


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## KINGoftheAMAZONS (Jun 21, 2011)

Biracial said:


> Depends on the stud.
> 
> I'm more interested in studs or ags that like being dickdowned.


It's difficult to find a stud who is "comfortable" admitting/accepting the fact that she enjoys penetration. Unfortunately, the Stud community is full of internalized homophobia and misogyny. Studs act like it's not "butch" to allow another woman to penetrate them, especially a femme. And there are some femmes who make fun of studs that like to get penetrated, and so this drives these butch women even deeper into the "closet", sort of speak. 

Personally, as a stud, I not only don't mind being penetrated, it's actually also a requirement for any potential sexual partner that I have, that she have the explicit desire to penetrate me. I don't care if she's a femme, andro, or a stud (I'm attracted to all gender expressions in women). I may be masculine, but I have a vagina, and she's needs to be used roud:.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

killerB said:


> It was an awful situation and I wish I would have had the guts to just make that move on her. I laugh now, but at 16, it was all very angsty.


Do you think she would have received you well if you made a move?


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## Bel Esprit (Aug 2, 2011)

saintless said:


> This is a generic, pretty universal question (such that it's not limited to LGBT people), but I am going to ask it regardless.
> 
> If this pertains to you and your experiences, how do you manage to stay friends with a straight girl you're interested in? Or a straight guy if you're not lesbian as well as any other combination that's analogous to your life's situation?


I don't. 
Well, I'm not saying it can't happen, but I've tried that before and my feelings got in the way. My damn emotions. I kept convincing myself that she could possibly like me though she told me repeatedly she had a boyfriend. We're not friends anymore partially for that reason as well as a couple others, but it's hard for me to put my feelings aside when I genuinely like someone. I consider it a bit immature and hope to learn how to do it more maturely.

Then again, I did try to pursue friendship with a girl I initially liked because I truly believed I could make that work, but I was too much of a pussy to actually do it because of the awkward position I had already put myself in.

Most of my friends are straight girls, but I've known them most of my life and I'm not physically or emotionally attracted to them.


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## nrcoggin (Mar 18, 2012)

voicetrocity:3031482 said:


> I've heard multiple accounts (even to the point that it's to be expected) of family members/friends going through stages of grief after a loved one comes out. I haven't heard too many accounts of the actual person coming out dealing with the stages.
> 
> I am well aware that everyone's experience (if they had one) will be different. But my question; has anyone else, personally dealt with the stages of grief after coming out? What was your experience with them? Did you experience them in any particular order?
> I'm only even mentioning this because I feel I've recently entered the "bargaining" phase.


It's sad that there are any stages of grief and people are unable to accept and love people the way they are.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

@mushr00m - 

I seriously suggest not to over think it. Hell, don't analyze it at all. Don't think to yourself, "Maybe I like her because... or him because... women's energy completes me the most because..." These things, as far as I am concerned, are far too complicated, far too complex. The origins of love are as lost as the origins of the universe. We may understand physics and we may understand the chemistry of love, but we don't understand its origin. I also figure there is no need to have that understanding. We exist in the now, act in the now, and life affects us now. Knowing how these mechanisms work is one thing, but the origins just seem far too off from where we are now to even care. That kind of thinking also seems stunting. 

I often feel agender. I am not masculine nor feminine. I was a tomboy growing up, and for the most part I still am but now I have embraced a lot of feminine qualities like fashion. I could easily become the masculine energy if I date a very feminine girl, but she could also emphasize my feminine traits and make that side more prevalent. However, I don't take that as a reflection on myself but rather a reflection on interpersonal dynamics. Some people will fit together differently than others and create their own shared personality. 

If you want help trying to shake away some social stigmas attached to ****/bisexuality, I suggest looking into LGBT literature, films, etc. Familiarize yourself with these things so they become normal. I know even after I accepted I was attracted to women and what not I would still cringe at the thought of two lesbians together or the sight of them kissing. However, I have essentially eradicated that reaction from my psyche because of my advice I just gave you. I did it myself you see, though make sure you find good quality literature, etc. Because there are bad ones out there with negative endings that almost seem LGBT relationships fated for doom and then there are the ones that only propel negative stereotypes.


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## nrcoggin (Mar 18, 2012)

How does it make you feel when someone says something is "gay" when referring to something they dislike or think is stupid? It seems like this is fairly prevalent in our culture and probably reinforces negative views society has on any non heterosexual relationship.


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## Drewbie (Apr 28, 2010)

^ It makes me want to hold their head under, in a tub of expired yogurt, for a few seconds longer than they can hold their breath.


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## nrcoggin (Mar 18, 2012)

Drewbie:3043974 said:


> ^ It makes me want to hold their head under, in a tub of expired yogurt, for a few seconds longer than they can hold their breath.


That's funny. I want to watch.


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## Sonny (Oct 14, 2008)

nrcoggin said:


> How does it make you feel when someone says something is "gay" when referring to something they dislike or think is stupid? It seems like this is fairly prevalent in our culture and probably reinforces negative views society has on any non heterosexual relationship.


I lose respect for them due to the realisation that they have a poor vocabulary.


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

nrcoggin said:


> How does it make you feel when someone says something is "gay" when referring to something they dislike or think is stupid? It seems like this is fairly prevalent in our culture and probably reinforces negative views society has on any non heterosexual relationship.



It really does not bother me much, I can tell when people are bashing gay people, and when people are just too ignorant to use another word, or too stupid and lazy to find one that means what they want to say.


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## mental blockstack (Dec 15, 2011)

Okay, I've been wondering this for a while, and I apologize if it was addressed already in the thread, but what is it with the trend of gay men speaking in a "gay voice"? Also often extends to walking a particular way. It doesn't make any sense that sexuality would have anything to do with formation of vocal cords, so it can't be "biological and not chosen."

I've sort of brought it up with a couple of gay people, but they got offended, and I generally haven't really cared enough to get to the bottom of it anyway.


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

There is no 'trend' for gay guys to have a higher pitched voice. Actually there are not that many who do, most are pretty run of the mill type of guys, that you would never dream were gay. They don't sashay when they walk, or have high voices. Have you seen the out gay Rugby and Basketball players? They are not like that. Sure, there are a small minority of guys that are more femme in presentation that do act this way, but it is because they are most comfortable with themselves like this.

You probably just notice them more because they are not what society teaches us is 'masculine' and so stick out. It seems that there are more of them because of this. No one notices the gay men who are NOT this way because they pass.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

saintless said:


> @_mushr00m_ -
> 
> I seriously suggest not to over think it. Hell, don't analyze it at all. Don't think to yourself, "Maybe I like her because... or him because... women's energy completes me the most because..." These things, as far as I am concerned, are far too complicated, far too complex. The origins of love are as lost as the origins of the universe. We may understand physics and we may understand the chemistry of love, but we don't understand its origin. I also figure there is no need to have that understanding. We exist in the now, act in the now, and life affects us now. Knowing how these mechanisms work is one thing, but the origins just seem far too off from where we are now to even care. That kind of thinking also seems stunting.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your advice  You are right, I do need to stop over analyzing, i've been doing too much of that and its kinda led to some sort of analysis paralysis and back to square one. Taking into consideration to what everyone has said and having some time to think about it, i've come to the conclusion that I need to just allow myself to be, to stop living a life of such repression. I still won't be telling people of my sexuality as I have laid low on that front anyway, I see no real need to come out as such, its not important until I decide to land in a same sex relationship. Its been really good to have such an honest discussion here and I thank everyone here for making it easier, really I do, its so hard to talk about it let alone find the right people to discuss it with. 

I've been spending time on and off looking into the scene but at the same time, don't really want to become too much a part of the scene so to speak, im still gonna do the same things as before but I do wish to educate myself on certain things which I think would really help. Im going to look into agenderism because I also teeter on that line.


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## Sonny (Oct 14, 2008)

GYX_Kid said:


> Okay, I've been wondering this for a while, and I apologize if it was addressed already in the thread, but what is it with the trend of gay men speaking in a "gay voice"? Also often extends to walking a particular way. It doesn't make any sense that sexuality would have anything to do with formation of vocal cords, so it can't be "biological and not chosen."
> 
> I've sort of brought it up with a couple of gay people, but they got offended, and I generally haven't really cared enough to get to the bottom of it anyway.


They probably reacted that way because there is a common presumption that a man speaking with a "gay lisp" is putting it on as opposed to simply speaking in the most natural way for him, and disagreed, yet didn't know what the answer was. 

There are straight men who have the same speech pattern so it isn't about sexuality, and there are men who are bullied in childhood for how they sound yet they do not loose that speech pattern so it's not chosen. There is no definitive answer, however there are studies and theories.

I will point out however, that biological reasons should not be ruled out:



> Researchers have found gay men differ from heterosexual men in part of Wernicke’s area, which influences language comprehension (Reite, Sheeder, Richardson, & Teele, 1995), as well as the anterior commissure, which is associated with regions regulating phonological processing (Allen & Gorski, 1992; DiVirgiolio, Clarke, Pizzolato, & Schaffner, 1999).


The study I find most plausible connects it to a gender nonconforming childhood:



> On average, gay men sounded significantly more “gay” than heterosexual men. This difference was highly significant and large in effect size. As such, listeners were able to judge sexual orientation from voice samples with moderate accuracy (68.5%). Moreover, how gay a man sounded correlated positively with the extent to which he recalled a gender nonconforming childhood (though not with his “outness,” as some theories would have predicted), and this was true for both gay as well as heterosexual men. Indeed, childhood gender nonconformity accounted for almost 30% of the variance in the voice ratings. When statistically controlling for sexual orientation, the correlation between childhood gender nonconformity and voice ratings remained; however, when controlling for childhood gender nonconformity, the correlation between voice ratings and sexual orientation became nonsignificant. In other words, “gay sounding” voices are probably “childhood gender nonconforming” voices and become associated with homosexuality only by proxy.


You can read the whole paper here.


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## Fallen Nocturne (May 13, 2012)

nrcoggin said:


> How does it make you feel when someone says something is "gay" when referring to something they dislike or think is stupid? It seems like this is fairly prevalent in our culture and probably reinforces negative views society has on any non heterosexual relationship.


It doesn't offend me, but it irritates the living hell out of me. It's really common at the sixth form I go to and an assembly last on the homophobia and use of the word gay in that was was taken seriously by absolutely no one, which really bothered me. 

Something tells me people wouldn't be so careless with their language if the phrase was instead "That's so Muslim" or "That's so Black People", so it's hard for me to assume any kind of non-homophobic intentions when people use it, especially since gay people aren't historically the most appreciated group.

It's something which annoys me enough that I once dedicated a blog post slamming it's use. I shared it on facebook and twitter and I like to think I might have gotten a few to think a little bit more about their choice of language, but I don't think enough people take it seriously enough for my attempts to be much more that futile.


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## nrcoggin (Mar 18, 2012)

Fallen Nocturne:3048122 said:


> nrcoggin said:
> 
> 
> > How does it make you feel when someone says something is "gay" when referring to something they dislike or think is stupid? It seems like this is fairly prevalent in our culture and probably reinforces negative views society has on any non heterosexual relationship.
> ...


I agree with what you're saying. If people said "That's so Muslim" it would be seen as very offensive and inappropriate. Although lots of people say "That's gay" may not be trying to offend others it shows how homophobic and segregated society still is in their thinking.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

Fallen Nocturne said:


> Something tells me people wouldn't be so careless with their language if the phrase was instead "That's so Muslim" or "That's so Black People", so it's hard for me to assume any kind of non-homophobic intentions when people use it, especially since gay people aren't historically the most appreciated group.


I am actually sure there is some turn of phrase where people will say things like "that's so black" and to some extent "that's so white", though it usually expressed using more direct slang words like maybe "that's so ghetto". 

People don't say things like "that's so muslim", but they will insinuate things like "that's such terrorism" which in the context of America essentially refers to Muslims when is apparently one in the same with people from the Middle East. 

*sighs*

It's all bigoted though.


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

saintless said:


> @_voicetrocity_ - I have to say that if your're bargaining, then you certainly haven't accepted yourself. Maybe you did at one point, but you have fallen into doubt as it seems.


I do agree that I still have a ways to accpting myself, but this doesn't feel like doubt. It's more like having lived my life as "straight" for the first twenty- something years of my life; built my expectations of my future life on being straight (ie: having a husband). Finally accepting the fact that I'm gay means having to let go of those visions I had for such a long time. 

I'm not all down in the dumps about it. My dreams as still attainable, just not in the exact way I had wanted; this is more of my mind getting used to this accptance of myself. To me, it's quite similar to qutting a habit; it takes time to completely ajust to not having that "presence" in your life. Probably not the best choice of words, but I hope that makes sense. 



killerB said:


> There actually are steps they say people follow when they are coming to terms with their sexuality. Obviously society has us pegged as straight from birth, so when we realize we are not, it is somewhat upsetting, or confusing to us. I do remember going through grief and barganing when I finally did admit I was gay. I struggled for over a year with my faith and if I was now going to Hell or going to be eternally damned, or punished. I was angry that is was me, and that I could not be happy with a man. I finally went to a LGBT friendly therapist who helped me sort it all out, and let me tell you, it was the BEST present I ever gave myself.
> 
> http://emptyclosets.com/home/pages/resources/coming-out/stages-of-coming-out.php
> 
> This link explains it all, it is very common to go through several stages of coming out. Hope it helps.


Thank you so much for your reply! It helps to know I'm not the only one going through this. I had someone preach to me about the evils of same sex marriage the other day (this person didn't know I'm gay) and it's certainly an adjustment to hearing these things and knowing someone is talking about a part of you. It's strange, and has made me realize how powerful denial really is. 

I haven't been to a theapist in quite some time, but I certainly don't think it would hurt at all. Thanks again!


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## Bast (Mar 23, 2011)

Ok, so I just spent the better part of my morning reading this thread in its entirety, and even though I usually don't post personal stuff on the internet I'm in the middle of a kind of "crisis" (heh) and was hoping for some advice / answers to some questions. How exactly can you tell the difference between a "girl crush" aka "that is a girl I want to be like!" and a "real/romantic crush" aka "that is a girl I want to be with!"? I'm struggling lately and feeling pretty depressed about my lack of lovelife in general. I've had weird "pseudo relationships" with guys in the past where we've kissed, held hands, but nothing serious... and I didn't like kissing them at all, and holding hands felt sort of awkward. I don't know if it was because I was young, or... : /


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

Bast said:


> Ok, so I just spent the better part of my morning reading this thread in its entirety, and even though I usually don't post personal stuff on the internet I'm in the middle of a kind of "crisis" (heh) and was hoping for some advice / answers to some questions. How exactly can you tell the difference between a "girl crush" aka "that is a girl I want to be like!" and a "real/romantic crush" aka "that is a girl I want to be with!"? I'm struggling lately and feeling pretty depressed about my lack of lovelife in general. I've had weird "pseudo relationships" with guys in the past where we've kissed, held hands, but nothing serious... and I didn't like kissing them at all, and holding hands felt sort of awkward. I don't know if it was because I was young, or... : /


The easiest way I have found is focusing on your heart. Do you feel you could be happy with her by your side? Does your heart beat faster with the thought of her touching or being with you? That is how I decided. I am sure others have their standards but I knew that I wanted to be with women when I received my first kiss from a girl. It felt so RIGHT. I felt like I had come home, it was natural. So that is my thoughts on it.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

Bast said:


> Ok, so I just spent the better part of my morning reading this thread in its entirety, and even though I usually don't post personal stuff on the internet I'm in the middle of a kind of "crisis" (heh) and was hoping for some advice / answers to some questions. How exactly can you tell the difference between a "girl crush" aka "that is a girl I want to be like!" and a "real/romantic crush" aka "that is a girl I want to be with!"? I'm struggling lately and feeling pretty depressed about my lack of lovelife in general. I've had weird "pseudo relationships" with guys in the past where we've kissed, held hands, but nothing serious... and I didn't like kissing them at all, and holding hands felt sort of awkward. I don't know if it was because I was young, or... : /


killerB has it right. It's all in your heart. Therefore, I can only explain this as much as I could explain love, and to me love is ineffable.

I just kind of know when I care for someone platonically and when romantic feelings are starting to stir in me. Someone could be cool, funny, and maybe not even bad looking, but I will just be like, "Um, yeh. Let's hang?" and I will mean nothing more than that. I like to imagine it's all about how we resonate with each other. Some people have that frequency and others don't.

I am sorry I cannot offer more concrete, tangible advice, but this is all I have. I am also bisexual, so the difference in relationships and personal worth is highly important to me. I am not saying this lightly but with much forethought. 

Sometimes a person just means the world to you, and sometimes they don't. It's not really something you can analyze and pull apart. It's all about how it just makes you feel and whether you feel good.


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## Bast (Mar 23, 2011)

@killerB ; @saintless : Thanks for replying to me, I appreciate it. This is quite the quandary for me. I know that I do have interest in having a relationship, but I guess I've never really given much thought to who with. It's been pretty nebulous. I don't know though... for example, I have a few guy friends I hang out with every now and then who are smart, funny, and reasonably attractive, but I just don't really feel anything other than a friendship bond with them (I don't feel any kind of sexual attraction at all). That's sort of what has had me wondering if maybe I'm just asexual, but ugh. Why does everything have to be confusing :dry:


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

Bast said:


> @killerB ; @saintless : Thanks for replying to me, I appreciate it. This is quite the quandary for me. I know that I do have interest in having a relationship, but I guess I've never really given much thought to who with. It's been pretty nebulous. I don't know though... for example, I have a few guy friends I hang out with every now and then who are smart, funny, and reasonably attractive, but I just don't really feel anything other than a friendship bond with them (I don't feel any kind of sexual attraction at all). That's sort of what has had me wondering if maybe I'm just asexual, but ugh. Why does everything have to be confusing :dry:


You could be asexual, and there's nothing wrong with that. Do whatever works best to make your life seem whole, good, whatever. Though, what about any girls? Just because you don't have attraction towards guys that doesn't mena your asexual if the desire exists for the other sex. 

Though, I am honestly starting to believe that things are only as confusing as much as we tend to over think them, or least most things involving emotions and sexuality.... love essentially. (;


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## Bast (Mar 23, 2011)

saintless said:


> You could be asexual, and there's nothing wrong with that. Do whatever works best to make your life seem whole, good, whatever. Though, what about any girls? Just because you don't have attraction towards guys that doesn't mena your asexual if the desire exists for the other sex.
> 
> Though, I am honestly starting to believe that things are only as confusing as much as we tend to over think them, or least most things involving emotions and sexuality.... love essentially. (;


Thank you for replying again. I feel like your posts are insightful and have given me a lot to think about that I don't necessarily want to post about on a public forum, haha. I know I have a lot of problems with self loathing and denial, so that is probably a lot of my problem right there.


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## RetroVortex (Aug 14, 2012)

Who do you think would win in a fight?

Batman with a bucket glued onto his head, or a Geriatric Spider-man that needs a hip replacement?


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

RetroVortex said:


> Who do you think would win in a fight?
> 
> Batman with a bucket glued onto his head, or a Geriatric Spider-man that needs a hip replacement?




Batman obviously. 
He would probably also show gay sensibility and make sure his bucket matched his shoes and belt..............


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## nrcoggin (Mar 18, 2012)

Bast:3069923 said:


> @killerB ; @saintless : Thanks for replying to me, I appreciate it. This is quite the quandary for me. I know that I do have interest in having a relationship, but I guess I've never really given much thought to who with. It's been pretty nebulous. I don't know though... for example, I have a few guy friends I hang out with every now and then who are smart, funny, and reasonably attractive, but I just don't really feel anything other than a friendship bond with them (I don't feel any kind of sexual attraction at all). That's sort of what has had me wondering if maybe I'm just asexual, but ugh. Why does everything have to be confusing :dry:


I don't know if you would relate but I think things become more confusing due to our outside influences. I have felt like I know what I want but get confused when people tell me I'm wrong shouldn't think that way. Generally speaking I'm fairly independent and do what I personally feel is best regardless of how others feel. Even if what you want isn't the same as others it doesn't make you wrong. Just be yourself and the people worth having in your life will appreciate and respect you for it. Good luck.


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## downsowf (Sep 12, 2011)

This is a very interesting thread. As a boring straight male I've learned a lot. I've always been jealous of bisexuals for having more options than me sexually. 

Since asexuals were added to the thread, I still sort of have a hard time comprehending asexuality. Here are a few questions:

1. Are there any asexuals who have a "sex drive"? - do you masturbate, are men able to get aroused sexually, etc…?
2. For asexuals who have had sex: what did it feel like for you? Did you derive pleasure at all from the act even if you have no interest in sex to begin with? I know the latter question sounds somewhat inconsistent, at least in my opinion, but I'm just trying to understand here.


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## BlueG (Jun 2, 2011)

downsowf said:


> This is a very interesting thread. As a boring straight male I've learned a lot. I've always been jealous of bisexuals for having more options than me sexually.
> 
> Since asexuals were added to the thread, I still sort of have a hard time comprehending asexuality. Here are a few questions:
> 
> 1. Are there any asexuals who have a "sex drive"? - do you masturbate, are men able to get aroused sexually, etc…?


Yes. Many asexuals do masturbate.


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## JoanCrawford (Sep 27, 2012)

BlueGiraffe said:


> Yes. Many asexuals do masturbate.


Do they use any type of pornography whilst masturbating?


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## BlueG (Jun 2, 2011)

JoanCrawford said:


> Do they use any type of pornography whilst masturbating?


Some do. 

For further reading: 
pornography | Asexuality Archive


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## Bast (Mar 23, 2011)

nrcoggin said:


> I don't know if you would relate but I think things become more confusing due to our outside influences. I have felt like I know what I want but get confused when people tell me I'm wrong shouldn't think that way. Generally speaking I'm fairly independent and do what I personally feel is best regardless of how others feel. Even if what you want isn't the same as others it doesn't make you wrong. Just be yourself and the people worth having in your life will appreciate and respect you for it. Good luck.


Yes, societal pressures / outside influence can really be a big problem. I've struggled with trying to "fit in" and having a bit of an obsession with being "perfect" and "normal" since I was very young, so that probably doesn't help me in this case either, heh. Thanks for the well-wishes.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

Bast said:


> Thank you for replying again. I feel like your posts are insightful and have given me a lot to think about that I don't necessarily want to post about on a public forum, haha. I know I have a lot of problems with self loathing and denial, so that is probably a lot of my problem right there.


I have recently learned that one really shouldn't try to keep things locked inside themselves, especially things with heavy emotions attached to them. I am trying to convince you to post here, though I personally find this a better place than any other. Yes, it's a public forum but it is also an anonymous for the most part (give you make it that). However, there should be some person, some thing that you can turn to to talk these out. Perspective... it's good. It's wise. And for me (at the very least), it is exactly what I need more of in my life to keep things on an even keel and in good nature. That last sentence is probably why I was driven to type this post. 

But, now. This can be especially true if you are experiencing self-loathing and denial. Keeping these emotions inside yourself can often make them stronger even as you try to eradicate them because you have to build up your ego to counteract them. It can be a battle, but if you can share them then they become affected by the external world and begin to detach from you. 

Do as you please, but that is currently how I see things. In the past few days, I have found myself in a more or less better place than I have been in for a while. It's great and wonderful. Strictly speaking, my life is still crap, but it is now without angst and that will begin to make all the difference.


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## Madam (Apr 1, 2012)

I had a conversation with a friend of mine and it made me wonder about a couple of things. So here's a question for bisexuals: how do you feel about society seeing you as straight when you're in a relationship with someone from the opposite gender?


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## Zletta (Sep 25, 2012)

Madam said:


> I had a conversation with a friend of mine and it made me wonder about a couple of things. So here's a question for bisexuals: how do you feel about society seeing you as straight when you're in a relationship with someone from the opposite gender?


I don't know...?
No different?
On the flip side, I've never dated a girl that has been interested in PDA or I've never really had the chance for such, so it's friends who sometimes see me as gay or mostly gay or bi, not society. Sometimes others notice... that's fine. It doesn't really matter, I guess. It's when the people I love, like my family, have a problem with me, that I will likewise have a problem.
I don't really understand your question though... can you word it differently? Can you be more specific? ...and you said you have been wondering about a couple of things... what else?


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## Madam (Apr 1, 2012)

Zletta said:


> I don't really understand your question though... can you word it differently? Can you be more specific?


There's nothing to word differently or be more specific about. A friend of mine just said that he feels bothered to be seen as straight by society and I was wondering about other people's experiences.


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## Trinidad (Apr 16, 2010)

I don't care what society thinks of me. The only way people will know I'm bisexual is if I tell them. If they see me with a woman they'll think I'm gay, with a man straight.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

Madam said:


> I had a conversation with a friend of mine and it made me wonder about a couple of things. So here's a question for bisexuals: how do you feel about society seeing you as straight when you're in a relationship with someone from the opposite gender?


It's only really annoying when people then act on the perception that I have to be one or another. If I say I have a crush on a girl, then the person is going to look confused when I start talking about guys. People need more flexibility.


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## justintroverted (Oct 24, 2012)

I have a question for you all:
If you have been in romantic/sexual relationships with members of the opposite sex before coming out, do you not think you should apologise to those people as you for all intents and purposes were living a lie, and as such essentially lying to them?


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

justintroverted said:


> I have a question for you all:
> If you have been in romantic/sexual relationships with members of the opposite sex before coming out, do you not think you should apologise to those people as you for all intents and purposes were living a lie, and as such essentially lying to them?


This is not exactly relevant to me as I am bisexual, however I feel like responding to this post because it has an underlying feel of accusation in it. 

Things, love, life, this world is not black and white. It's one huge messy blob of varying shades of gray. Therefore my answer let alone anyone else's answer to this question will be all-encompassing or even all that accurate of an answer. Regardless, there a few things that could be going on in such situations. 

First, perhaps the person is not living a lie such that they believe they are straight. They had a real interest in the person they dated, but there was never any real romantic or sexual attraction. These things aren't always immediate. I have never met anyone, gay or straight, who claimed they fully understood their heart and the manners of love. It just doesn't happen. 

But, maybe. The person knew full well that they were gay when dating the straight person. Are they lying to the person? Technically, yes. Are they leading them down a dead end road? Most likely. Though, sometimes marriages happen between a gay person and a straight. They have kids and live a good life together albeit one of them is never sexually satisfied. However, there are other forms of satisfaction that could be genuine and good enough. Should they apologize for this? Well in the latter situation if both people are generally happy, then that doesn't make much sense. Though, it would be a shame if the gay person only did it to fit societal norms---which is usually the case. In the former situation, I don't believe any one should have to apologize. Let me explain that deeper though.

I, as a person of compassion and consideration, would undoubtedly feel sorry for giving the other person false hopes though I would still hope they enjoyed while it last. It's kind like any relationship even straight ones. Sometimes things just don't work out. Sometimes people don't actually go into their relationship with their full heart. Sometimes one person is looking for commitment while the other is looking for a fling. These things deserves apologies but only in a casual context. Life is all about trials and tribulations. To expect a seamless, perfect relationship out of every you meet is a little naive. 

But, now. I wouldn't feel the need to formally apologize, as already alluded to. If anyone deserves such an apology, it would be the gay person due to society's pressure on them to live a lifestyle that is not of their liking. Of course, I am not asking for an apology. I would feel like that is childish, but I would ask society to drop all pretenses from this point on---which of course is not going to happen over night but eh.


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## Trinidad (Apr 16, 2010)

justintroverted said:


> I have a question for you all:
> If you have been in romantic/sexual relationships with members of the opposite sex before coming out, do you not think you should apologise to those people as you for all intents and purposes were living a lie, and as such essentially lying to them?


I agree with @_saintless_ that your post has an accusatory tone to it. Might this be personal? Have you been the straight 'lied to' person in this story? If so, I can understand your frustration, but urge you to (re)read saintless' post. She makes some very good points.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

justintroverted said:


> I have a question for you all:
> If you have been in romantic/sexual relationships with members of the opposite sex before coming out, do you not think you should apologise to those people as you for all intents and purposes were living a lie, and as such essentially lying to them?


I don't see how that would be considered immoral? Why would it matter surely or what exactly is there to feel bad about or feel the need to apologise for? If you were going out with someone and cheated on them, regardless of gender, then that is a lie but I don't necessarily see it as lying when considering sexuality is such a personal thing when it comes to figuring yourself out, it wouldn't make sense to apologise for something that every bisexual person will experience in their early days of coming to terms with themselves. I still don't know why sexual orientation(bisexuality in particular) is singled out or treated as though they are in fact deceiptful no matter how you look at it which is pretty unfair. Why does the bisexual person need to explain themselves in the first place?


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## justintroverted (Oct 24, 2012)

_*They had a real interest in the person they dated, but there was never any real romantic or sexual attraction.*_
Then what was the point of getting together then? If it is to prove they're 'straight' they are deceiving themselves. What about the other person in all this? That person may have been genuinely attracted, only to find this person is attracted to their own biological sex instead of them. That cannot be good for one's self-esteem, and unless I am mistaken, there'd likely be a sense of betrayal*

First, perhaps the person is not living a lie such that they believe they are straight.

*They are living a lie, they are lying to themselves, even if they are only aware of it subconsciously.

_*Should they apologize for this? Well in the latter situation if both people are generally happy, then that doesn't make much sense.

*_How do you know they are happy? What proof is there that exists to verify this? How do we know the affected partner isn't simply deceiving themselves (self-deception)? As House says, "Everybody lies"
_*
To expect a seamless, perfect relationship out of every you meet is a little naive.

*_That was not the question. The question was based on the presumption that the closeted individual willingly and knowingly pursued a relationship knowing full well they were essentially deceiving their respective partner, and to make matters worse it was done out of a lack of self-insight and to some degree cowardice (again, my opinion)
_*
If anyone deserves such an apology, it would be the gay person due to society's pressure on them to live a lifestyle that is not of their liking.

*_That may be so, but it is the closeted person who made a conscious decision to either pursue/continue a relationship._* 
*_This may be a personal bugbear of mine, but I cannot abide liars, and I cannot abide the dishonest. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the last time I checked, any relationship that is founded on a lie, intended or not, malicious or not, does not bode well._*

*_*I agree with @saintless that your post has an accusatory tone to it. Might this be personal? Have you been the straight 'lied to' person in this story? If so, I can understand your frustration, but urge you to (re)read saintless' post. She makes some very good points.
*_*
*_The post wasn't meant to be accusing, and it isn't personal. I did read the post multiple times and it seems like a rationalisation for being a dishonest liar. If it is due to fear, why not simply try to stay single until one figures oneself out? It is just that I seem to notice that when the closeted person does come out, no mention is made of apologising to their partner and it is my reckoning that same hypothetical partner may quite rightly feel betrayed or lied to, or feel used, all because this person was so lacking in self-insight, and it is my (ill-informed and quite ignorant) opinion that the partner should get an apology. Not saying sorry strikes me as unfair as the one in the closet is the one with the issue._*

*_


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## justintroverted (Oct 24, 2012)

_*I don't see how that would be considered immoral? Why would it matter surely or what exactly is there to feel bad about or feel the need to apologise for? If you were going out with someone and cheated on them, regardless of gender, then that is a lie but I don't necessarily see it as lying when considering sexuality is such a personal thing when it comes to figuring yourself out, it wouldn't make sense to apologise for something that every bisexual person will experience in their early days of coming to terms with themselves. I still don't know why sexual orientation(bisexuality in particular) is singled out or treated as though they are in fact deceiptful no matter how you look at it which is pretty unfair. Why does the bisexual person need to explain themselves in the first place?

*_The question wasn't just about bisexuals, it was about anyone who is in the closet be they gay, lesbian, asexual or transgendered. My post has been misread-and the question did say: 

*I have a question for you all:
If you have been in romantic/sexual relationships with members of the opposite sex before coming out, do you not think you should apologise to those people as you for all intents and purposes were living a lie, and as such essentially lying to them?

*_The key word being *all,* inferring every and anyone LGBT._


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

@justintroverted I will answer your questions, but please refrain from calling people who have left straight relationships because they are gay liars, or cowards, because they didn't live up to what you think should have been done. You have no idea if these people appoligized or not, and you pass judgement on something you know nothing about. Of course you will offend people when you say things like this. I want this thread to remain respectful for all parties involved. 

Now....moving on.......

Many times, people DON'T come out if they are married, if they realize they are gay. The reasons for this is because of the guilt they feel for leading another person on, or not loving them as a straight partner could have loved them. If they do come out, often they try to hide it for as long as possible before telling their husband or wife. There is an incredible amount of guilt we feel when we realise who we are, and that we must now hurt someone we care about, share children with, or respect in order for us to be whole feeling. We also know that on some level, we can't give the straight spouse the relationship they deserve because we are gay. We know how much pain this will cause the other, believe me. Apologizing does go on, even if not mentioned in posts. 

To say that they should stay single until they find out who they are, is telling of the generation you were raised in. Those of us not raised in this generation, however, were not raised to believe that we were anything BUT straight, so why would we ever think of staying single until we found out who we were? We were straight after all, even if we were not. If we were unfufilled, didn't enjoy sex, vomited after oral with a man, or never were emotionally or sexually satisfied, we felt the problem was us. Being gay was NOT an option. It never crossed our minds, many of us never even knew any gay people or had anyone to relate to in the community so how could we find who we were? Others(like myself) thought it was a stage, and that I had not found the right man yet. 

I also feel the need also to point out that being gay is NOT about sex only. This seems to be a point of confusion for the straight community. You can orgasm if someone rubs you the right way, heck, you can masturbate and get off. This does not equate a complete, fufilling relationship. It IS possible to love an oposite sex person when you are gay. For instance, you love your best friend even if they are of the same sex. It is not the love you would have for your mate, but it is love never the less. It can be easily confused also. Many people get crushes on their Besites, and realize later it is not THAT kind of love they feel. Why would it be any different for gay people? 

As for someone who marries for a Beard or Purse(that is the slang for a gay person to marry someone of the oposite sex to hide the fact that they are gay) I feel it is a decision that both people should enter into willingly. It does happen, I had an ex who married her male friend before going to Iraq, just to give his children and him insurance. They talked about it and they agreed on it. It met both of their needs and everyone was happy. 

I don't know if you are aware, but there are support groups for straight partners in a mixed orientation marriage. The most common one is the Straight Spouse network(SSN) and it can be found if you Google.


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## Morpheus83 (Oct 17, 2008)

@justintroverted 

This might seem strange, but some LGBT people (especially homosexuals) believe that pursuing heterosexual relationships might 'cure' them of their homosexuality -- especially when it's not uncommon to hear how gay people are simply 'confused' and/or it's just a 'phase'. These people might not believe they're 'lying' at all -- and think that their homosexuality is just a 'disorder' to be 'fixed' by being with the 'right' person of the opposite sex.


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

justintroverted said:


> I have a question for you all:
> If you have been in romantic/sexual relationships with members of the opposite sex before coming out, do you not think you should apologise to those people as you for all intents and purposes were living a lie, and as such essentially lying to them?


First of all, you asked about romantic/sexual relationships before "coming out". I'm not sure what your definition of the phrase "coming out" is; but in the GLBT community it means you've accepted your sexuality. Whether that be just acknowledging it yourself or verbally confiding it in someone else. If someone is in a relationship before "coming out" you can safely assume someone is not aware/has accepted themselves enough to really consciously be entering a relationship with intent to harm the other party. Now, if someone was out and trying to cover up their sexuality- then, I don't view that in the best light. 

The thing that gets me is that people ENCOURAGE people who have come out to "experiment" and say things like _"How can you not know if you've never been with a man?"_ or _"You just haven't met the right man_". As someone who has heard these things, I honestly can't blame someone for feeling like they should continue to try relationships with the opposite sex in hopes that they just might find "that one". It does make me sick to hear of parents setting up their children with someone of the opposite sex in hopes it'll make them "straight"- these people never have the feelings of their children or other party in mind when doing this.

Then there's also the issue of the emotion of "love". I can honestly say I've had romantic feelings for men before; very confusing emotions. I liked to make out with them, I didn't find them repulsive and actually don't mind sleeping next to them. But when it came to sex and desire, nothing matched up. There's a difference between sexual and romantic feelings, and it often takes people some time to recognize the difference between the two. I can't tell the the times I wondered what the heck was wrong with me. I liked men- I wouldn't have minded spending my future with them; so why the f*ck did I not want to sleep with them? Why did they need to initiate everything? Wasn't I supposed to want to, at the very least, return what was being given. Where was that spark that was supposed to happen; why was the only time I ever felt the desire to kiss someone with a woman? Why was there a disconnect? Denial can be a powerful thing; and one can spend a lot of time trying to make something work for hope, that just won't. It wasn't until I took a long hard look at my past, and paid attention to the way I acted and felt that it became almost painfully obvious to me what was going on. 

There are things that I can't imagine what's going on in someone's mind while they're doing it. Love is a complex and pretty much impossible thing to pin down. My point is; having a sudden shift in feelings with someone you're involved with isn't limited to sexuality. There are friendships that just grow apart. There are people who; after years of being in a relationship, will cheat on their partner. It's never fair to the person who is being hurt- but it's a part of life and part of the risk of falling in love. Do I think there are people who have stood at the alter knowing they'll cheat on their spouse? Yes, I do. But I also think there are just as many who are really in love at that time and cheating is something they can't even fathom doing- and yet, 10, 20 years down the line- here it is. Should that person who entered in the relationship apologize for something they had no clue was going to happen in the beginning? _"Oh, sorry I got into a relationship with you; even though I was completely in love and dedicated to you"_ 

I'm all about responsibility. If you do consciously do something you KNOW is going to/did hurt someone else- I should hope you would apologize (I know I would). But I would also hope that the person who is hurt would look deep within accept that apology and move on with their life.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

@justintroverted - Everyone else has already added enough to this thread to cover all the bases for you, however I wish to respond specifically to something you addressed to me. 

Every individual is different, and some will be compelled to act recklessly with immature hearts guiding their actions. Such concerns are valid, but don't make out every gay person's situation to be the same. We can argue scenarios back and forth all day, but when it comes down to it... I don't find the concern you have listed to be lies. Some might just be outright lying, but never underestimate the influence society has over an individual. When a (gay) person is stuck between a rock and a hard place, their best behavior won't always shine through. 

Essentially, don't be such a harsh judge of things. Allow room forgiveness, and realize people make mistakes.


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## AussieChick (Dec 27, 2010)

Snakecharmer said:


> I have a question.
> 
> At what age did you realize what your sexual preference is?


I knew when I started High School that I was gay.But I hid in the closet for fear of disappointing my parents as I was the eldest child,and only girl.I was sexually abused by my uncle from the ages of 8-16 so I was also confused about my sexuality,and thought I was perhaps just frigid.But that didn't stop me from having an attraction to other females.

I had my first sexual experience aged 23 with a male and it was so good that I thought I was straight and stopped thinking about girls for awhile.But during my abusive marriage to my ex husband, I was so unhappy that I started being attracted to females again.It wasn't till about two years ago that I acted on my feelings and am now in a relationship with another bisexual woman 10 years younger than me.But it seems that relationship is sliding down a very slippery slope and may end in the near future.


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## AussieChick (Dec 27, 2010)

Snakecharmer said:


> What was coming out like (if you have come out to family, friends, etc)?


A bit awkward at first but was glad that I finally did.My ex sister-in-law actually told me that she always knew that I was gay.And I discovered that she was bisexual too.I think my family is getting used to it now.


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## AussieChick (Dec 27, 2010)

Kyandigaru said:


> how is it that Lesbians are more okay with their g/fs hanging out with their ex than straight women and their b/fs?


Im not ok with my girlfriend hanging out with her ex.We have an open relationship,but I prefer her to be with males when I am not with her.We are both bisexual and have both male and female exes.I have no desire to be with a woman let alone my female ex.Same thing if I was in an open relationship with a male,I would not be with another male without my partner present.But my girlfriend recently wanted to spend the weekend with her female ex while we are apart (we live 4 hours from each other and have not seen each other for a month).I was very uncomfortable with that and told her how I felt.I think it is one of the reasons why our relationship is now on shaky ground.


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## Moya (May 22, 2012)

Madam said:


> I had a conversation with a friend of mine and it made me wonder about a couple of things. So here's a question for bisexuals: how do you feel about society seeing you as straight when you're in a relationship with someone from the opposite gender?


Or gay when you're in a relationship with someone of the same gender.
It bothers me simply because they make assumptions and completely ignore the possibility of bisexuality. They don't even consider it as a viable option, they just rule it out as a possibility straight off the bat.


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## Moya (May 22, 2012)

@justintroverted Lying in general should be viewed differently than someone lying about their sexuality.
One is not obligated to let others know. Sometimes people have circumstances that would make their lives a whole lot worse if they were open about it; others simply aren't ready yet. No person, straight, LGBT, or otherwise, has _any _right to out others or to dictate when is appropriate for them to come out and when is not.


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## Kyandigaru (Mar 11, 2012)

AussieChick said:


> Im not ok with my girlfriend hanging out with her ex.We have an open relationship,but I prefer her to be with males when I am not with her.We are both bisexual and have both male and female exes.I have no desire to be with a woman let alone my female ex.Same thing if I was in an open relationship with a male,I would not be with another male without my partner present.But my girlfriend recently wanted to spend the weekend with her female ex while we are apart (we live 4 hours from each other and have not seen each other for a month).I was very uncomfortable with that and told her how I felt.I think it is one of the reasons why our relationship is now on shaky ground.


i love your honesty on your relationship. Most people would lie and say, "we are just fine" or some bullshit. Its never "fine" when your g/f or b/f are with an ex when you're not present. I dont think i could ever have my guy be with his ex...I dont trust anyone 100%. Maybe 80%...lol


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## AussieChick (Dec 27, 2010)

killerB said:


> Many times, people DON'T come out if they are married, if they realize they are gay. The reasons for this is because of the guilt they feel for leading another person on, or not loving them as a straight partner could have loved them. If they do come out, often they try to hide it for as long as possible before telling their husband or wife. There is an incredible amount of guilt we feel when we realise who we are, and that we must now hurt someone we care about, share children with, or respect in order for us to be whole feeling. We also know that on some level, we can't give the straight spouse the relationship they deserve because we are gay. We know how much pain this will cause the other, believe me. Apologizing does go on, even if not mentioned in posts.
> 
> To say that they should stay single until they find out who they are, is telling of the generation you were raised in. Those of us not raised in this generation, however, were not raised to believe that we were anything BUT straight, so why would we ever think of staying single until we found out who we were? We were straight after all, even if we were not. If we were unfufilled, didn't enjoy sex, vomited after oral with a man, or never were emotionally or sexually satisfied, we felt the problem was us. Being gay was NOT an option. It never crossed our minds, many of us never even knew any gay people or had anyone to relate to in the community so how could we find who we were? Others(like myself) thought it was a stage, and that I had not found the right man yet.
> 
> ...


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## justintroverted (Oct 24, 2012)

_* I will answer your questions, but please refrain from calling people who have left straight relationships because they are gay liars, or cowards, because they didn't live up to what you think should have been done.*_
@killerB Why? A lie, even unintentionally told is still a lie.

_*You have no idea if these people appoligized or not, and you pass judgement on something you know nothing about.*_

I never said I knew anything about it. I was not making an assumption. I was simply asking a question on something that dawned on me regarding this issue. If someone did apologise, then fair enough. It's a rather simplistic idea to argue, but if one lies and the lie is found out, shouldn't the person caught own up to it where appropriate (and hopefully safe to) do so?
However I am looking at this from the perspective of the 'straight' partner
@killerB the rest of your post was actually pretty sound looking at it, as I had realised in trying to form counter-arguements I was actually answering my questions. @Morpheus83 Good point-I didn't take it into consideration that the person may genuinely believe that in this day and age. I just find it maddening that so many people seem so unwilling to take a good hard look at themselves-for me, it's a case of 'how can you not know? My reckoning would be that if you were you would 'know it without knowing it' or understand instinctively

_*First of all, you asked about romantic/sexual relationships before "coming out". I'm not sure what your definition of the phrase "coming out" is; but in the GLBT community it means you've accepted your sexuality.*_
@voicetrocity I am aware of that-first one has to 'come out' to oneself by acknowledging they are gay, bi, transgender or lesbian (stage 1) then to tell others-close understanding family, friends and partners (stage 2) Does the aforementioned sentence seem correct to you?

_*Should that person who entered in the relationship apologize for something they had no clue was going to happen in the beginning? *__*"Oh, sorry I got into a relationship with you; even though I was completely in love and dedicated to you"*
@voicetrocity __Yes. The partner may feel lied to and obviously hurt, and the apology can possibly help towards restoring some goodwill in the relationship. Plus how do you know they were in love and dedicated? They may been on the 'down low' or in a same sex relationship on the quiet. I do not accept excuses for cheating.__

*Such concerns are valid, but don't make out every gay person's situation to be the same.*


[/I @saintless I never said I did. That wasn't my intent I was talking about within the context of an opposite sex mongamous relationship

*Essentially, don't be such a harsh judge of things. Allow room forgiveness, and realize people make mistakes.
* @saintless Why? If someone pulled that kind of stunt even if it's not intended, the affected party has every right to feel anger (and any other emotion for that matter), and in feeling that anger more than likely will not be so inclined to forgive-especially in the immediate aftermath, and as mistakes go, this would be a pretty big one-even worse if the relationship has been going for years (or decades)_


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

@justintroverted - You are such a silly person. 

Within the context of an man-woman, monogamous relationship, every gay person is going to have different reasons and circumastances that brought them there. I know what you are talking about. I am saying it's not that easy to qualify. I don't pass absolutist judgement when it comes to things like "morality". Reread my initial post to you, I talk about that there. 

I have also already mentioned why I don't feel like it's necessary to apologize though can be deserving of it. Reread my initial post. This conversation really shouldn't be dragged out. However, I will say that an apology could be issued. I know I would because I tend to apologize in general, but you are coming off as very condemnatory. That's why so many people are taking issues with your words. If you want to take this stance fine, but I do hope you express the same judgement towards any cheating, lying straight couple. You may, but you must understand that this is rarely immediately assumed by the LGBT community due to the prejudice they have experienced. I mean a lot of them do well, knowing full well what they are doing, but a lot of them live in areas where emotional and physical abuse are imminent threats. If they fear gay bashings, they have all the right in the world to lie about who they are. That is why these lies (though I would so distinctly refer to them as that) can be permissible.


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

justintroverted said:


> _*First of all, you asked about romantic/sexual relationships before "coming out". I'm not sure what your definition of the phrase "coming out" is; but in the GLBT community it means you've accepted your sexuality.*_
> @_voicetrocity_ I am aware of that-first one has to 'come out' to oneself by acknowledging they are gay, bi, transgender or lesbian (stage 1) then to tell others-close understanding family, friends and partners (stage 2) Does the aforementioned sentence seem correct to you?


 It does. Please understand that people who are NOT "out of the closet" do not have the awareness that they are gay. If the person was out of the closet and trying to cover up their sexuality (as I said before and will say again)- I don't view that in the best light. However, I would never judge someone or feel betrayed by someone who dated me before they were out of the closet. I know I didn't have that awareness when I was dating men- it just wasn't an issue for me. 

_*



Should that person who entered in the relationship apologize for something they had no clue was going to happen in the beginning?

Click to expand...

*_


> _*"Oh, sorry I got into a relationship with you; even though I was completely in love and dedicated to you"*
> @voicetrocity __Yes. The partner may feel lied to and obviously hurt, and the apology can possibly help towards restoring some goodwill in the relationship. Plus how do you know they were in love and dedicated? They may been on the 'down low' or in a same sex relationship on the quiet. I do not accept excuses for cheating._


We both seem to share similar sentiments on cheating. I'm not sure that I ever provided an example of a couple and said that I knew 100% that they were in love in the beginning of the relationship. Please read my post again, I stated that there were people who are in love and dedicated when starting a relationship as much as there are people who get into relationships for other reasons like security, etc-without the emotion of love. I simply started that if the person is being honest about what's going in with them and says that they were in love in the beginning of the relationship, that just might be true. Even though I'm an intuitive, I can't know about everyone all the time and I don't remember ever making that claim (though I'm flattered that you would think I have such powers).

I've never apologized to any of the men I dated because of my sexuality. I have apologized for leading them on, when I obviously wasn't ready for a relationship and for anything else I felt I did that might have caused the downfall of our relationship. But I haven't dated a man for years before coming out, so I hope they understand that I wasn't being deceptive while in the relationship. If they did, I don't think there's anything I could do to make _them understand I wasn't. It's a very simple thing to say to someone else,  "Please trust me, that I didn't do this to hurt you" but it's hard to explain that you didn't have ferocious intent to someone with a bleeding heart. And I'm not about to apologize for something I didn't do just to make someone comfortable._


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## justintroverted (Oct 24, 2012)

*@justintroverted*_* - You are such a silly person.* 
@saintless Ad hominem attacks help no one and show a weakened, losing arguement. I am merely trying to understand and shed light on something I noticed seemed to be overlooked.

*I know I would because I tend to apologize in general, but you are coming off as very condemnatory.
*
My post seems to come off as condemning, but my mistake, I probably should have posted the question differently, knowing how sensitive the issue is.

*If you want to take this stance fine, but I do hope you express the same judgement towards any cheating, lying straight couple.
* @saintless Actually, yes I do. It doesn't matter the orientation, any relationship founded and/or based on a lie is headed for disaster

*That is why these lies (though I would so distinctly refer to them as that) can be permissible.* @saintless But that helps nobody in the long run. How can homophobia be countered and tolerance and acceptance gained if people are hiding and no one is ready to speak out? 

*I've never apologized to any of the men I dated because of my sexuality. I have apologized for leading them on, when I obviously wasn't ready for a relationship and for anything else I felt I did that might have caused the downfall of our relationship.* @voicetrocity That's what I originally meant-leading people on, knowingly or not, willingly or not-that's what the apology should be for. It was my mistake in not making my question clearer._


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

@justintroverted - Calling out an ad hominem attack shows the same kind of weakness particularly when I wasn't using that to further my words but rather expressing my intrigue in the kind of conclusions you draw. 

If you hold such judgements upon people, then that is a personal difference. We must agree to disagree. We could argue the merit of when it is and it is not permissible to lie such as utilizing white lies. However, that is not what this thread is about. If you wish, make a thread about relationships and lies. You could either post that in the Sex and Relationships forum or the Critical Thinking forum. It's up to you. That baggage does not belong here. 

You are right. It is a shame that such people behave in such manners, but I wouldn't judge them for that too harshly. I would pass more judgement on society for creating these circumastances. 

It is not the responsibility of every gay person to eradicate homophobia, and it is certainly not their responsibility when harsh abuse hangs threatening over their heads. There is a time and place for everything. This is why there are groups and organizations that help society move towards such goals because no one person can do it alone or should do it alone. However, maybe some are too sacred. Maybe some aren't even sacred but are homophobic themselves and believe something is wrong with them. How is that fix? Not by the individual but by others showing them they are accepted. It is the responsibility of society to fix homophobia. Homosexuality is not just an individual phenomena. It is a societal one.

If you don't agree with me, fine. That is your prerogative. However, this is the end of the conversation. I am not withdrawing or conceding or giving in but rather recognizing this has gone on far too long. KillerB started this thread and explicitly expressed that such discussions should not arise. I wish to respect that wish.


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## justintroverted (Oct 24, 2012)

*@justintroverted - Calling out an ad hominem attack shows the same kind of weakness particularly when I wasn't using that to further my words but rather expressing my intrigue in the kind of conclusions you draw.
*No it doesn't. If that were true why not simply go after my arguement instead? Whoever first made the ad hominem comment loses the arguement because the specific arguement is not very good and has not stood up to scrutiny and counter-points.

If KillerB expressed such a desire then fair enough I will end the discourse with you here. You don't have to respond to these or any future posts.


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## Nirel (Oct 21, 2012)

I don't want to offend anyone so if anyone is offended by my ignorance I'm sorry in advance.

I have a lesbian roommate and I know a few lesbians from my academy and some of their friends and girlfriends.
What I don't quite understand is that they generally seem to care less for make up, feminine walk ,talk or clothes.
As someone who's attracted to women, the most logical thing for me to do if I were a woman would be to act 
as feminine as I can to attract other women(since that's what I'm attracted to).

My question is am I missing a fundamental about the way lesbians perceive other women,am I just noticing 
a certain kind of women who stand out more, or is it something else?


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

Nirel said:


> I don't want to offend anyone so if anyone is offended by my ignorance I'm sorry in advance.
> 
> I have a lesbian roommate and I know a few lesbians from my academy and some of their friends and girlfriends.
> What I don't quite understand is that they generally seem to care less for make up, feminine walk ,talk or clothes.
> ...


I have no idea, myself. Sometimes you get butch lesbians who are attracted to other butch lesbians. Sometimes you get butch lesbians who are attracted to femme lesbians. Sometimes you get femme lesbians (those who wear makeup and display other feminine traits) who are attracted to neither butch nor femme but something in the middle. These things can be all over the map. However since lesbians technically fall outside of social norms, they could have more fo a tendency not to care for other social norms such that women should be feminine and wear makeup. 

Though, your conclusion intrigues me. Most assume that a butch lesbians are that way because they want to attract a female soul such that "males" and "females" are suppose to complement each other. It's an opposites attract theory. Though, real life is a bit more gray.


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## Nirel (Oct 21, 2012)

saintless said:


> Though, your conclusion intrigues me. Most assume that a butch lesbians are that way because they want to attract a female soul such that "males" and "females" are suppose to complement each other. It's an opposites attract theory. Though, real life is a bit more gray.


First thank you for you response.
What I meant by feminine is not what I believe to be social norms as I couldn't care any less about most of them but feminine in a way that if your attracted to the female form, in theory you should be attracted to a walk, clothes or make-up that accentuates it.
More bluntly nothing to do with being submissive/dominant which I deem to be completely irrelevant


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

Nirel said:


> First thank you for you response.
> What I meant by feminine is not what I believe to be social norms as I couldn't care any less about most of them but feminine in a way that if your attracted to the female form, in theory you should be attracted to a walk, clothes or make-up that accentuates it.
> More bluntly nothing to do with being submissive/dominant which I deem to be completely irrelevant


It has nothing to with being submissive/dominant. The butch-femme spectrum doesn't normally include such traits. They are essentially a category for traits that either represent masculine traits or behaviors or feminine traits or behaviors. Dominance is generally a trait considered masculine and therefore could be a part of a person's identity, but there are submissive butch women out there. 

I understand exactly where you are coming. Lesbians considered femme and not butch walk in a certain way, have a certain style, and essentially act in feminine manners that are considered a method of accentuating the "female form". Butch is meant to go in contrast with this. 

In some ways, I can understand why a girl who is attracted to other girls would go for a butch woman who apparently embodies a style in contrast to the female form or feminine manners. It's almost like they're attracted to masculine energies instead. However, being male and masculine are not one in the same. There is also a physical attraction in that maybe the lesbian doesn't like dicks but she does like masculinity. A butch woman would be perfect for her. It's all very complicated, but it can be easier to understand when you see that sex and gender are not one in the same and there are several gray areas within each.


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## OldNewBorrowedTardis (Jul 3, 2011)

(Sorry if this has been asked)

How do you go about dating if you don't go to LGBT clubs/bars? Like would you know if somebody was gay or do you normally just take a leap of faith whilst asking them out?


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

justintroverted said:


> *@justintroverted - Calling out an ad hominem attack shows the same kind of weakness particularly when I wasn't using that to further my words but rather expressing my intrigue in the kind of conclusions you draw.
> *No it doesn't. If that were true why not simply go after my arguement instead? Whoever first made the ad hominem comment loses the arguement because the specific arguement is not very good and has not stood up to scrutiny and counter-points.
> 
> If KillerB expressed such a desire then fair enough I will end the discourse with you here. You don't have to respond to these or any future posts.



This thread was not started to debate points. It was started to help others understand more about us, to foster discourse, and encourage understanding. Please feel free to join us if you have a legitimate question, but when you use this space,(a SAFE space), do not dissect the answers you are given as it just sullies the intent of this thread. People need to feel safe to share their feelings and answers here without recriminations, and even if you do not mean it as such, by debating everyones answers, you are indeed causing people to fear sharing. I hate that.

BTW- you remind of my INTJ daughter(and wife), what is your MBTI?


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

Nirel said:


> I don't want to offend anyone so if anyone is offended by my ignorance I'm sorry in advance.
> 
> I have a lesbian roommate and I know a few lesbians from my academy and some of their friends and girlfriends.
> What I don't quite understand is that they generally seem to care less for make up, feminine walk ,talk or clothes.
> ...




It could be several things. 

It may be that you are noticing Butch lesbians, who embody female masculinity, and they generally don't care for makeup(there are some that wear it, but they are the exception in general) female clothing or act like what is stereotypically thought of as feminine. Most people see this as what a lesbian looks like. You probably know several very feminine lesbians, that wear makeup and such, but don't recognize them as lesbian because you assume they are straight. Another thing is yes, we as lesbians generally don't judge each other on the traditional feminine trappings as dictated by heterosexual society. That is not to say that we don't wear makeup, or dresses, or participate in girl talk. It is just we are less likely to worry about if we put on a pair of sweats, can change our own oil, or have the newest Channel shade of lipstick, and does it make us feminine.


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## justintroverted (Oct 24, 2012)

_*BTW- you remind of my INTJ daughter(and wife), what is your MBTI?*_ @killerB I am apparently an INTP if that means anything


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

OldNewBorrowedTardis said:


> (Sorry if this has been asked)
> 
> How do you go about dating if you don't go to LGBT clubs/bars? Like would you know if somebody was gay or do you normally just take a leap of faith whilst asking them out?



Sometimes we bite the bullet and take a chance. Sometimes we use our 'gaydar' or the feeling that someone you met is also gay. Usually you will get a feeling or a 'look' from the other person, but this is in no way 100% accurate. We usually try to 'feel' the other person out a bit. We may casually bring up gay themed movies, or maybe look at the type of friends someone has(usually gay people will have many gay friends, but not always)or see it they have any signifiers of LGBT culture, like rainbow items, or if they use LGBT phrases. It is not an exact science, and this is usually why LGBT people who don't know many other LGBT people or go to the gay bars can have trouble finding partners. I actually met my wife online at a dating site for LGBT people. So, there are options that were not there a few years ago.


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

justintroverted said:


> _*BTW- you remind of my INTJ daughter(and wife), what is your MBTI?*_ @_killerB_ I am apparently an INTP if that means anything


Yes, that actually clarifies a few things for me. NTs present themselves a certain way because they are so T orientated. They will state things and ask for clarifications and mean no disrespect doing so. They simply seek knowledge. Sometimes people can take them as being rude, and too direct, and be offended. 

If you wish to have an in depth discussion, please feel free to PM me, I have no problem explaining more completely to you. I look forward to our discussion.


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## cue5c (Oct 12, 2011)

Nirel said:


> First thank you for you response.
> What I meant by feminine is not what I believe to be social norms as I couldn't care any less about most of them but feminine in a way that if your attracted to the female form, in theory you should be attracted to a walk, clothes or make-up that accentuates it.
> More bluntly nothing to do with being submissive/dominant which I deem to be completely irrelevant


I get what you're saying, but it's a bit misguided. What about all the straight guys who are attracted to punk girls or nerdy girls, or just girls in general who don't strive to be as feminine as possible? Just like that, everyone has different taste. Also, being gay means that until you've come out, you've had to submit to society. Once you've lived a life of that, you care a lot less about living up to mainstream standards. Not to mention makeup is commercialized as a way to attract men. That's probably why you see the feminine stereotype of gay men. I think it's less about being like the opposite gender and more like trying to attract the gender we like in the way that's been taught in our culture and ingrained in our heads.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

I have a question pertaining to bisexuality.

Is it wrong to keep your sexuality to yourself when in a committed relationship, say after you have discovered yourself? Should you be open to your partner even if you are still questioning yourself? I mean your supposed to be honest about everything right?


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## Drewbie (Apr 28, 2010)

mushr00m said:


> I have a question pertaining to bisexuality.
> 
> Is it wrong to keep your sexuality to yourself when in a committed relationship, say after you have discovered yourself? Should you be open to your partner even if you are still questioning yourself? I mean your supposed to be honest about everything right?


If a person is in a committed relationship one would hope it's with a person they can be open and honest with about their sexuality without fearing negative repercussions. However, if someone is not comfortable coming out or if they're just questioning themselves they do not have to come out to their partner right away or ever if they're that uncomfortable with it. The idea that a person must be completely open and honest in any situation, and particularly in this case, in committed relationships, is bullshit. There are so many risks to coming out or openly questioning your sexuality that would be ridiculous and dangerous for everyone to come out or announce that they're questioning their sexuality for no other reason than the sake of being honest.

If a person finds themselves in a situation where they are in a committed relationship and are questioning their sexuality or realize they're bisexual and they are uncomfortable discussing that with their partner, they need to sit themselves down and think about why they are uncomfortable. Is there a risk their partner will violently object to the fact? Does their partner stigmatize bisexual people? Will their partner refuse to believe they are bisexual? Can their partner have a healthy relationship with someone they know is bisexual, and if they can't is the relationship worth keeping at the expense of staying in the closet for the duration of the relationship? If there's no reason to think their partner will react in any way negatively to their coming out then why are they uncomfortable? Is it simply that the timing is not right or that they want to have a better understanding of their sexuality before discussing it or do they not have the appropriate words to engage their partner on the topic? Those are also perfectly legitimate reasons to wait to come out. 

Very few people, in my experience, want to live in the closet or refuse to come out of insignificant reasons. Because the closet is not comfortable, it's kind of stifling actually, so if someone is uncomfortable being open about their sexual orientation or their questioning status it's usually because there's something significantly more uncomfortable or threatening waiting outside of the closet than in. And for that reason, no one is obligated to come out to anyone else. Ever. For any reason. Basically.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

Drewbie said:


> If a person is in a committed relationship one would hope it's with a person they can be open and honest with about their sexuality without fearing negative repercussions. However, if someone is not comfortable coming out or if they're just questioning themselves they do not have to come out to their partner right away or ever if they're that uncomfortable with it. The idea that a person must be completely open and honest in any situation, and particularly in this case, in committed relationships, is bullshit. There are so many risks to coming out or openly questioning your sexuality that would be ridiculous and dangerous for everyone to come out or announce that they're questioning their sexuality for no other reason than the sake of being honest.
> 
> If a person finds themselves in a situation where they are in a committed relationship and are questioning their sexuality or realize they're bisexual and they are uncomfortable discussing that with their partner, they need to sit themselves down and think about why they are uncomfortable. Is there a risk their partner will violently object to the fact? Does their partner stigmatize bisexual people? Will their partner refuse to believe they are bisexual? Can their partner have a healthy relationship with someone they know is bisexual, and if they can't is the relationship worth keeping at the expense of staying in the closet for the duration of the relationship? If there's no reason to think their partner will react in any way negatively to their coming out then why are they uncomfortable? Is it simply that the timing is not right or that they want to have a better understanding of their sexuality before discussing it or do they not have the appropriate words to engage their partner on the topic? Those are also perfectly legitimate reasons to wait to come out.
> 
> Very few people, in my experience, want to live in the closet or refuse to come out of insignificant reasons. Because the closet is not comfortable, it's kind of stifling actually, so if someone is uncomfortable being open about their sexual orientation or their questioning status it's usually because there's something significantly more uncomfortable or threatening waiting outside of the closet than in. And for that reason, no one is obligated to come out to anyone else. Ever. For any reason. Basically.


Thanks for your honest and fair response Drewbie. Has given me some points to take into account. I think whats happening is a number of things and which you touched on about the partners reaction. Now I admitted that I wasn't exclusively straight to my partner over 5 years ago, he did not take it well. He just had these immediate negative reaction as if it straight away meant that I was going to dump him for another woman etc and now really did hurt the way he viewed our trust level, I mean I plucked up the courage to tell him back then and because he didn't like it, I went back to pretending to not have any feeling whatsoever towards women. And hear I am again, after being broken up with him for a couple of years and then us getting back together and im going through the whole should I keep quiet about it or just be honest which in a way will feel like a burden has been removed from my shoulders. I also don't trust him to not tell others, even his best mate which he kind of did before, I wanted to be the person to tell not him so a bit of my trust kinda disappeared at that point. I think he may have some sort of distorted views due to his being abused by men in his past and he brings up little references like, I should be disliking of gay people considering what they did to me which I can sort of understand, I think he does know better than that though but still makes me question his hang ups. Then again, I could be just going down analysis paralysis route :/ 
Thats very true about feeling stifled or feeling a bit false, like having to pretend to be something. Its becoming very stressful and although I have been confused, i've never felt more certain and well i've had to hide it for so long, in the face of it being painfully obvious from myself and others sometimes. So I suppose, its much better to come out at one's own accord depending on individual reasons and as long as little damage is done as possible :/


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## soya (Jun 29, 2010)

Madam said:


> I had a conversation with a friend of mine and it made me wonder about a couple of things. So here's a question for bisexuals: how do you feel about society seeing you as straight when you're in a relationship with someone from the opposite gender?


It bothers me that most people assume everybody is "straight until proven otherwise" in general.


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## Drewbie (Apr 28, 2010)

mushr00m said:


> Thanks for your honest and fair response Drewbie. Has given me some points to take into account. I think whats happening is a number of things and which you touched on about the partners reaction. Now I admitted that I wasn't exclusively straight to my partner over 5 years ago, he did not take it well. He just had these immediate negative reaction as if it straight away meant that I was going to dump him for another woman etc and now really did hurt the way he viewed our trust level, I mean I plucked up the courage to tell him back then and because he didn't like it, I went back to pretending to not have any feeling whatsoever towards women. And hear I am again, after being broken up with him for a couple of years and then us getting back together and im going through the whole should I keep quiet about it or just be honest which in a way will feel like a burden has been removed from my shoulders. I also don't trust him to not tell others, even his best mate which he kind of did before, I wanted to be the person to tell not him so a bit of my trust kinda disappeared at that point. I think he may have some sort of distorted views due to his being abused by men in his past and he brings up little references like, I should be disliking of gay people considering what they did to me which I can sort of understand, I think he does know better than that though but still makes me question his hang ups. Then again, I could be just going down analysis paralysis route :/
> Thats very true about feeling stifled or feeling a bit false, like having to pretend to be something. Its becoming very stressful and although I have been confused, i've never felt more certain and well i've had to hide it for so long, in the face of it being painfully obvious from myself and others sometimes. So I suppose, its much better to come out at one's own accord depending on individual reasons and as long as little damage is done as possible :/


It is best for a person to come out on their own terms when as little damage is done as possible to themselves. There does come a point when staying in is more painful and damaging than coming out. You say it's becoming very stressful to hide who you are the more certain you become of yourself, it may be time to start reevaluating your relationship with this guy, especially if you've tried coming out to him before, he's reacted badly, and you have reason to believe he would do so again and would possibly even out you to other people without your consent. You may not be ready for everyone to know yet, but you seem to want to be open with the people closest to you and you can't do that with your current partner. I can't think that's a healthy situation for anyone to be in. I really hope you manage to work things out for yourself. I was in a similar relationship when I was on the brink of coming to terms with my attracted to multiple genders, but fortunately it ended before I found myself in the position of feeling the need to come out to that person.




soya said:


> It bothers me that most people assume everybody is "straight until proven otherwise" in general.


I find this incredibly annoying. Also a tad hilarious, in my case. I know femme lesbians, in general, get this far more than I do but I'm quite obviously butch and I still more often than not have people assume I'm straight and then need to be convinced that I'm not when I tell them. I really do not know what I could do to be more obvious other than painting "so fucking queer" across my forehead.


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## soya (Jun 29, 2010)

Drewbie said:


> I find this incredibly annoying. Also a tad hilarious, in my case. I know femme lesbians, in general, get this far more than I do but I'm quite obviously butch and I still more often than not have people assume I'm straight and then need to be convinced that I'm not when I tell them. I really do not know what I could do to be more obvious other than painting "so fucking queer" across my forehead.


I have a (pretty obviously) gay friend who I often hang out with and he had to explain to a few people why we laughed so hard when they asked if I was his girlfriend... these people had seen him in drag, too. Amazing.


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## Drewbie (Apr 28, 2010)

soya said:


> I have a (pretty obviously) gay friend who I often hang out with and he had to explain to a few people why we laughed so hard when they asked if I was his girlfriend... these people had seen him in drag, too. Amazing.


I've also had people see me in drag and later ask me if I had a boyfriend or otherwise make comments that indicated they thought I was straight. People are so amusing. And it's not that straight people can't or don't do drag but to see someone in drag and then still make an assumption one way or the other without even asking? I don't get that.


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## soya (Jun 29, 2010)

Yes, exactly. I didn't mean to imply that "only queers do drag", but rather that my particular friend has a few attributes hinting at his likely orientation and these people didn't seem to get it, not even after seeing him in drag - which with the other factors seemed to spell it out pretty clearly. 

I also found it pretty ridiculous that they were assuming we were a couple because I'm a female, he's a male and we are seen together often. I love that implication that mixed gender friendships are so unlikely, that when a dude a lady are together they must be doin' it.


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## Bast (Mar 23, 2011)

Here's a question that might be stupid, but I'm pretty oblivious when it comes to anything having to do with relationships, sooo...

How can one tell - in general - if someone of the same sex (whose sexual orientation you DON'T know) is interested in you as "more than just friends"? I can't even tell when a guy likes me, so this is a whole new ball park heh. Any hints that would be obvious? I have no idea.


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

What do you think of straight guys/girls who make a big deal out of being "LGBTQ allies". I've always avoided it because I feel like it's overbearing and awkward. Cool or cringeworthy?


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## Hokahey (Oct 8, 2010)

How poked and prodded by this thread do you feel?


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## Fallen Nocturne (May 13, 2012)

A question for other LGBT people on the forum:

*Do you attend gay pride events or anything similar in nature? If so, what have your experiences been with them?

*I ask because someone has just recently asked me if I did on ask.fm and I realised I hadn't because I never felt any reason to. I understand it can be more of a stance against prejudice that outright pride, but I've never felt my sexuality was anything to be proud (or ashamed) of. Now that I think about it, I think I'd be rather uncomfortable at a pride event, given I don't really consider my bisexuality to be a large aspect of who I am.


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

Pride is simply an event to celebrate the Stonewall Riots, and the birth of Gay rights as we know it today. 

http://www.civilrights.org/archives/2009/06/449-stonewall.html here is a link. 

I always go to Pride, not because I want to flaunt who I am, but to acknowledge who I am. Someone had to start the movement of gay rights and this celebration is a celebration that is suppost to bring us together as LGBT people and allies, remind us of our 'forefathers and foremothers' who fought to give us any rights we have today, and to celebrate who we are as people. It is a safe venue to hold your lovers hand, kiss them in public and meet others who are like you. 

We always bring our kids and parents(the Grandparents) and we all enjoy it greatly. It has tons of politcial items and also food, entertainment and LGBT litature. Not everyone is supportive and some LGBT people have no other venue to meet others like themselves. THey have no blood family who accept and this helps them not feel like a freak also.


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## Holgrave (Oct 11, 2011)

One of my really good friends in high school ditched all contact with me and the others in the group just because he's gay. Now, I had no knowledge that he was gay, but that wouldn't have effected my view point on him. I mean, he knows that my sister's gay. So I guess my question is, knowing that, does anyone have any idea why he would do that?


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

I have absolutely no idea why he would do that. I know when I came out, I needed my friends and prayed they would accept me, which they did(even the most religious ones).

I have seen some gay people think that if they don't have only gay friends, then they are letting the community down or some other such nonsense. I have heard of people thinking that every heterosexual person will hate them, or just pretend to accept them(even if your sister is gay, he may have thought that you are pretending to accept her), or they can come to the conclusion that no one but another gay person can understand them, so they lose their straight friends. It's Heterophobia, and it's wrong. 

I would try to reach him and just ask. Who knows what he was thinking. Good luck.


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## geezuschrist (Dec 5, 2012)

Holgrave said:


> One of my really good friends in high school ditched all contact with me and the others in the group just because he's gay. Now, I had no knowledge that he was gay, but that wouldn't have effected my view point on him. I mean, he knows that my sister's gay. So I guess my question is, knowing that, does anyone have any idea why he would do that?


I can answer this. I'm bi and I had a rough time kind of dealing with it and I still do. You interact with your sexuality every day and it's really hard being a minority, not being accepted, and also not having people even KNOW you're a minority. 

I think some people deal with coming out differently, but it sounds like your friend had a bit of crisis. Maybe his lifestyle when he was friends with you was something he wasn't happy with. Even if you're not homophobic, maybe he doesn't feel like he fits in with you anymore or feels uncomfortable for whatever reason. For instance my gay friend in high school was a big sports player and pretended to be straight and had all these macho friends, the day we graduated he came out and now he has a completely different group of friends (most of them are gay guys like himself)

I hope that clears things up P


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## Drewbie (Apr 28, 2010)

@Fallen Nocturne
I have been able to attended one Pride event. I went because it was my first opportunity to do so and I didn't have any other connection with LGBT people that wasn't long distance and I was desperately in need of spending time in a place where I could be myself among peers and wouldn't have to guess how people would react to me and my girlfriend. There were political items, a parade, music, dancing, food, and a lot of friendly people. I would go again if I ever had the chance.


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## Sonny (Oct 14, 2008)

Fallen Nocturne said:


> A question for other LGBT people on the forum:
> 
> *Do you attend gay pride events or anything similar in nature? If so, what have your experiences been with them?
> 
> *I ask because someone has just recently asked me if I did on ask.fm and I realised I hadn't because I never felt any reason to. I understand it can be more of a stance against prejudice that outright pride, but I've never felt my sexuality was anything to be proud (or ashamed) of. Now that I think about it, I think I'd be rather uncomfortable at a pride event, given I don't really consider my bisexuality to be a large aspect of who I am.


It's an excuse to party with some fabulous people.

/extrovert


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

Sonny said:


> It's an excuse to party with some fabulous people.
> 
> /extrovert



LOL! I love this.


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## cue5c (Oct 12, 2011)

Mmmm, I've gone to one and unfortunately wasn't there long. I probably won't go back for a while since it will just bring back unwanted memories now. It sucks that such a hard image for me is seared into my mind with one of the few safe places for me, but there's no changing the past so it's fine I guess.

I hate being bitter.
(I need a drink.)


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## Sophianna (Dec 28, 2012)

geezuschrist said:


> I can answer this. I'm bi and I had a rough time kind of dealing with it and I still do. You interact with your sexuality every day and it's really hard being a minority, not being accepted, and also not having people even KNOW you're a minority.
> 
> I think some people deal with coming out differently, but it sounds like your friend had a bit of crisis. Maybe his lifestyle when he was friends with you was something he wasn't happy with. Even if you're not homophobic, maybe he doesn't feel like he fits in with you anymore or feels uncomfortable for whatever reason. For instance my gay friend in high school was a big sports player and pretended to be straight and had all these macho friends, the day we graduated he came out and now he has a completely different group of friends (most of them are gay guys like himself)
> 
> I hope that clears things up P


I did this with my friends when I initially came out. (I think I was 18 or 19 at the time.) 

For me it was that I felt like I had lied to my friends for years. I had allowed them to think I was someone I wasn't. I had pretended to like things I didn't. So I felt like I couldn't deal with showing them who I truly was. Not because I thought they would reject me for who I was, but because I was ashamed that they knew about all of my lies.

At this point in my life, I understand that I wasn't lying in a shameful way all of those years ago. But at the time I felt that way, so I pretty much ditched all of my friends. It's sad to me now...I wish I had given them more credit that they would understand. I think the majority of them would have.


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

Fallen Nocturne said:


> *Do you attend gay pride events or anything similar in nature? If so, what have your experiences been with them?
> *


I think whether one gains something depends on their personality, the event in question, who is running it, etc.

Many cities have a Pride event each summer on some weekend, for example. Sometimes there is a parade. There are usually booths (both commercial as well as informational, plus music, food, and other entertainment). People can go to these for different reasons; there can even be people who go who have newly "come out" and it can be encouraging to them to see how many other people are dealing with the same things they are. Like any large event (rock concert, etc.), the proceedings can range from informative and relational to raunchy and out of control. It just depends on the people involved.

I went to some for a few years. Now I only really go if I'm planning to meet friends who I don't see otherwise. It was rather funny when I attended one in my old city -- I ran into a guy I had worked with, who I had suspected was gay but wasn't really sure (he was an ISFJ and pretty mum about his outside life), and there he was with his partner, and very open about it when he saw me, and even invited me over sometime to go swimming and hang out. Kind of funny!

There are lots of other LGBT-oriented things like seminars, conferences, and such, with panels and speakers and documentaries and whatever else. They can be very informative in regards to legal, medical, social, and religious issues. Those are more interesting to me, in order to learn about something I don't know.



killerB said:


> I have seen some gay people think that if they don't have only gay friends, then they are letting the community down or some other such nonsense. I have heard of people thinking that every heterosexual person will hate them, or just pretend to accept them(even if your sister is gay, he may have thought that you are pretending to accept her), or they can come to the conclusion that no one but another gay person can understand them, so they lose their straight friends. It's Heterophobia, and it's wrong.


I so much agree.

I have a wide variety of all friends and persuasions, and I am proud (in the good way) of that. I have worked hard to always go beyond the borders of my background.

The thing about thinking all hets will hate (or just pretend to accept) them is sad, however, because for some, that can actually be the case. I think it's still worth it to make the effort and not let oneself become compartmentalized/trapped within just another demographic. I actually found some of the hets saying not to come out because everyone will hate you for it, yet there are many accepting het people in the world. There are conflicting messaging, but I think it's important to be open to everyone and respond to them as they are, not what demographic they belong to.


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## Stiggidy7 (Apr 7, 2013)

I'm assuming it it considered common practice for girls strappin it on. My extremely femme partner doesn't mind either role (giving/recieving) I'm physically characterized the masculine/soft stud and guess which is my preference. I don't subscribe to gender binary nor do I place any significant importance on societal gender norms. Lastly, sexuality can be as fluid as gender. With so many plausible possibilities, why limit yourself to labeling?


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

Stiggidy7 said:


> I'm assuming it it considered common practice for girls strappin it on. My extremely femme partner doesn't mind either role (giving/recieving) I'm physically characterized the masculine/soft stud and guess which is my preference. I don't subscribe to gender binary nor do I place any significant importance on societal gender norms. Lastly, sexuality can be as fluid as gender. With so many plausible possibilities, why limit yourself to labeling?


In my case, it fits really well. I am a more-or-less middle-of-the-road bisexual and more-or-less traditionally male. Other people might have more trouble describing their genders and sexualities.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

JoanCrawford said:


> This guy I (used to) like said he is bisexual but _prefers_ women. He said he would never actually have sex with a man and has never fantasized about men in any way. Not even a threesome or anything. But still feels attracted to them? Is this some kind of cover-up to avoid an underlying issue with his sexuality? What does "attracted" mean in this respect?


That's unusual.

l get it when a person says they're bi and leaves the window open for the sex that would be easier for them to obtain (opposite sex most of the time).

The door open? The window? Something is being left open for something.

*lnteresting* for him to be so theoretically attracted to something an actual gay man would take more seriously though lol. l have seen similar declarations from women.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

OMG WTF BRO said:


> l get it when a person says they're bi and leaves the window open for the sex that would be easier for them to obtain (opposite sex most of the time).


For bi guys, no. As an experiment, make an OKCupid account with pictures of a good-looking guy that isn't too good looking and mark him as straight. After two weeks mark him as bi. Compare how many visits he gets. Hint: when I did this, I was flooded with guys checking out my profile, but there is a small trickle of women. With Grindr and Craigslist, it's even easier.


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## Stiggidy7 (Apr 7, 2013)

I served in the army under the DADT policy. I had never experienced prejudice until my first day of basic training. (I had just came out the prior week and chopped all my hair off.) I was singled out from the get-go, based upon something as trivial as my hair. Order and uniformed structure govern the services, my unconventionalism lead to my initial moments of experiencing bigotry for the first time personally. I will never forget what I felt in those minutes. My whole structure of being accepted/ability to accept others was irrevocably changed in an instant. I was humiliated, felt inferior/almost sub-human, and felt the overwhelming implications that my personal values had to be horribly out of sync to warrent such a negative response, whereas I've always been immediately liked/well received by society. My sense of self was diminished, my confidence scattered like roaches, and generally felt ashamed of me for the first time ever. The idea that we were basically viewed as bullet catchers had been shoved down my throat, yet the "carpet munchers weren't even worthy of such a demise. Basically, I was good enough, until I was outed. Then my blood became too tainted for the army's standards. The pressure to suddenly conform to what was expected and fit in uniformly didn't mesh at all with the authoritarian voice that I was forced to obey. I already felt hypocritical being sworn in, with my hand on the bible and under oath to be truthful. I felt like I had abandoned an intrinsic part of myself to "fit in." Felt guilty for not living authentically, especially after what a tumultuous time coming out had been. My sense of inner pride and empowerment were squashed. This was especially hard to swallow after experiencing such an emotional high. Subsequently, it was a learning experience. I was criticized more then than any other point in my life. I was able to discern who was deserving of helping me to mold my perception of myself. Being labeled was especially foreign in that I had always prided myself on my individuality. Basically, I had to change my views and vantage points on everything; which attributed to the overall shaping of my character. I was able to rise above and still come out on top. (Reaffirming my confidence and self esteem levels) I decided at that point I would never allow another to make me feel inferior, especially when I had/have an unwavering conviction to reject bigotry/prejudice and accept others for who they are. Lastly, having an intolerance to any group implies that you ultimately have placed yourself first in the pecking order. Anyone/thing/situation that doesnt fit your idea of what is socially acceptable isnt of any worth or value. Sorry this was so long winded.night still do not feel as though I've adequately expressed my sentiments clearly and objectively.


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## Stiggidy7 (Apr 7, 2013)

MegaTuxRacer, I didn't mean to imply that there won't be individuals that thrive on fitting a label, even pride themselves on fitting in accordance with what society deams as being accepted behavior. No, some folks may feel like they found their niche. I personally know plenty of people that find it too difficult to describe their genders/sexualities and would rather just use the label out of simplistic need for identifying and relating to (said label.). IMO, using/conforming to labels sometimes may cripple our ability to see outside outside the box, thus effectively closing our eyes to see anything other than (label). 



But I totally understand what you're sayin and appreciate you taking the time to pass along your insight.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

Stiggidy7 said:


> MegaTuxRacer, I didn't mean to imply that there won't be individuals that thrive on fitting a label, even pride themselves on fitting in accordance with what society deams as being accepted behavior. No, some folks may feel like they found their niche. I personally know plenty of people that find it too difficult to describe their genders/sexualities and would rather just use the label out of simplistic need for identifying and relating to (said label.). IMO, using/conforming to labels sometimes may cripple our ability to see outside outside the box, thus effectively closing our eyes to see anything other than (label).
> 
> 
> 
> But I totally understand what you're sayin and appreciate you taking the time to pass along your insight.


Yeah I would agree with all of that. I was just answering the question as I interpreted it.


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## Whippit (Jun 15, 2012)

Do you feel that it's a lot more common in the LGBT community to have relationships with large age differences? Do you think that people in the LGBT community find it more acceptable to have relationships with legally 'underaged' individuals than in the straight community?


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## Stiggidy7 (Apr 7, 2013)

Snakecharmer said:


> What was coming out like (if you have come out to family, friends, etc)?



Coming out radically redefined "authenticity." For the first time, I was able to live my life, walking authentically in step with what I believed in. I had no idea what kind of hell I had put myself through in order to maintain the fragile integrity of being in the closet. At once, I was immediately liberated of my inhibitions and simultaneously felt a sort of self empowerment to such a focused degree I had never previously experienced. This new sense collided with any of the boundaries that I wasn't even aware I had settled into so completely that it compromised my degree of living. This flung the door wide open to limitless possibilities/situations/experiences. I was finally embodying the very essence of life-actively taking the control of the drivers seat and flipping off my auto pilot switch. I finally got to know and accept, even love myself. 7 years later, I'm still continuing to enrich my life to the best of my ability. (Almost acting as a catalyst, coming out was a life-changing, pivotal moment in my life that allowed me to concretely make positive changes for the betterment of myself.)


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