# Comparison and Examples of NFP lyrics, NFJ lyrics, NTP lyrics, and SFP lyrics



## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

I've been meaning to do this for a while. I'll make a separate post for each couplet. 

Sorry if my song or artist choices are a bit old and I'm trying to show a bit bigger artists... but thats kind of hard for me, my tastes personally are pretty eclectic. My favorite band is Dead Can Dance for Pete's sake, so sorry if I don't discuss your favorites, but hopefully you see my points and descriptions as the main purpose for this. 

PLEASE don't add on unless you are very very certain that your songs are that type. Look over what I'm saying and deeply compare before posting add-ons. If you want to disagree with my rational directly, do so... but I know it would piss me off to no end to see some INTP song suddenly labeled as an ENFJ song in my thread as if you hadn't even considered what I was saying before posting. I know humans are capable of identifying with other types, especially emotionally. And I know especially Fi songs sometimes "wake up" Fi in those who are not naturally strong Fi users. So watch out on that identification... PLEASE. Yes, I'm asking for you to make a hard core commitment to study this before you add a post.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

NFP lyrics.

Expansive use of trans-contextual concepts being used to create or describe unique feelings and unique feelings being used to create concepts. Sub concepts are in each line usually, (usually but not always). Often (but not always) sub-concepts contribute to the title concept. There can be multiple theme comparisons instead of one (example... a person is compared to a moon, a meadow, a river... often in the same verse, sometimes in the same sentence... sometimes contributing to a bigger theme of something like a landscape painting? You know... could be anything with Ne.

Ne aux will often use feeling first (of course) and will sometimes expose a feeling without a concept for added effect and use more Si tangibles usually as symbols. The tangibles will be very specific to their own experience with these objects/symbols and this use is unabashed... it creates a feeling for the writer which is allowed by the writer themselves (seen to a greater extent usually than Ne dom). There is often championing of causes that the NFP believes in (Fi) and unique people and unique experience idealized (?) for lack of a better word...(Fi) lyrics/poems/music is after all one of the only mediums to really express Fi feelings.

Ne dom extensively tie concept word to concept word or sometimes use more broad nouns rather than going to a more specific object for symbolism (like using a river for symbolism rather than using a cigarette case, for instance-- sometimes). Ne dom often use lots of questions in their work and often display interest and orientation in learning from their significant others in their work as part of Ne learning "new" from others and exploring questions. Ne dom also have a tert universal or tribe function so sometimes (not always) there is a bit more conventional feel and less expressed uniqueness around objects.


NFP general example:
Hozier's "Take Me to Church" He's just playing with these concepts on every line.. concepts compared to concepts. Not much use of Si for symbolism here... some... but mostly concepts used as symbols for other concepts. He does do what I'm saying up above, his love is unique not universal and the goal is to describe that unique-ness as per Fi. The concepts are good and interesting and sometimes half-formed. He allowed this as part of exploration and play. More Ne seen in this particular song. I would not yet make a guess without really seeing a lot of interviews on Ne dom or aux. I'd say he's pretty on the line. Strong concept use, strong feeling.





Stevie has a very excellent use of both Ne and Fi and walks the line between imo. Look at those broad concepts and questions about love, god, change, aging, etc.





ENFP

Goo Goo Dolls Concept compared to concept, concepts concentrate on orientation to significant other, and broader symbols and questions.





Katy Perry for sure. Throw in the ENFP humor too. Concepts in every line, championing individuality. Use of broader and less unique symbolism.





Some honorable mentions: Chris Martin (Cold Play), think of "Yellow" and "Sky Full of Stars" broad symbolism, dominant concepts of how you orient yourself and experience your significant other. Train's "Drops of Jupiter" look at the broad concepts in each line making unified statements and feelings, but with the Fi goal of expressing the uniqueness of his love.

2 honorable mentions that I'm not actually sure might not be ENTPs... but very strong Ne dom. Alanis Morsette (think "Thank you" and ") and John Lennon (think "Imagine", "Come Together" The idea that John Lennon is Ne aux seems kind of implausible with his lyrics, imo.

INFP
Be ready for the enhanced Fi feelings and unique personal symbolism.

Kurt Cobain INFP.... oh I love him! Concepts of unique personal meaning even phrases like "hurry up" have deep personal historical significance. More reference to objects "I don't have a gun". Expressions of complete unconditional unique love "Come as you are, as you were, as I want you to be."





INFP Tori Amos' . Again such tight beautiful unique symbolism and multiple concepts/symbols and you can see here that has to do with personal history. The tension of the need for self-unconditional love versus outside acceptance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PDlGUdDF8Y

Honorable mentions are almost endless. The Fray, Dave Matthews, Regina Spektor, Elbow


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

NFJ

Concept dominated with universal Fe. These songs could apply to everyone and be experienced by almost everyone but could rarely be written by just anyone-- note Cohen's Hallelujah . This is not as long of a discussion because I can only repeat what I've picked up from NFJs on PerC . On my own I can notice lyrics that are concept dom and feeling but without Fi and Si. The past doesn't seem to come into the lyrics almost at all and there are multiple references to the future. With Names and stories of specific people come in often it seems to me with Fe, especially Fe dom. The concepts are expressed differently than Ne in that Ni spins variations of the the same concentrated theme. Ne is expansive with concepts, having difficulty being contained. Ni boils down. 

Leonard Cohen INFJ 





Florence of Florence and the Machine INFJ





Kate Bush ENFJ




 
Do you NFJs think maybe John Mayer? I know he's not someone people want to claim, but I think I'm seeing high Fe. I do not think we are seeing Si, but Ni. He definitely seems to write concepts-- he's N. I'd like to hear back on that. 

I don't know where to put Dead Can Dance and they are my favorite. I seem to see Ti and Ni almost equally and Fe instead of Fi in the lyrics... however I don't think Lisa is as involved as much with the lyrics. The melodies themselves have a high degree of feeling that seems to originate within Lisa and spread outwards and seems Fi to me in just the music alone (but can anyone type music itself without lyrics?). I heard her say once "music emanates like pain". I don't think I'm seeing Ne in the lyrics. Is it possible Brendan is ISTP? Is Lisa INFJ )or INFP) and he ISTP ? INFP and INFJ? Is this an INFJ and an INTP? There's just so much Ti and Ni in the lyrics with strong Fe it seems to me. I know they've had their share of artistic differences. I don't think both are INFJs. Try "How Fortunate the Man with None" by Dead Can Dance, or "The Carnival is Over" And then there are romantic ones like "American Dreaming" that seems totally INFJ to me. It doesn't seem like he uses much if any personal symbolism? "like a somnambulistic maniacal in the dark" No Si in that that I can see.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

NTP

Expansive Ne in every line coupled with Ti.

A good general NTP down the line example seems to be They Might Be Giants. I can't tell INTP or ENTP and it's of course written by a group. Not any or much F here, though. 

They Might Be Giants ENTP





With ENTP you can see some tert Fe. Just like with the ENFP discussion, you see extensive use of questions in the form of concepts. There is often humor. 
INTP lyrics do seem to show more Si symbolism just like INFP. 

Bare Naked Ladies ENTP dominated. This song shows Fe tert and Si inferior and the Si inferior here creates tension. 





ENTP Melissa Etheridge (this one is from former band Indigo Girls). See the bit of Fe, questions and lots of broad nouns and playing with concepts on most lines.





INTP Of Monsters and Men Same as with the discussion on INFPs, there's more unique symbolism and a bit of reference to the past, but definitely concepts. Ti dom





Mentions: ENTP Waterboys. 
As I said before I'm not sure if Alanis Morissette is ENTP or ENFP. She's very Ne dom. I'm kind of leaning towards ENTP. I am also leaning towards ENTP for John Lennon, but Ne dom at any rate and I'm not sure which.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

SFP Lyrics. The interesting thing to me is to see Fi that is so familiar to me but with S instead. Notice how Fi is not expressed through a concept but it will be expressed overall from the feel from a whole sentence. For instance, Freddy Mercuries "Just killed a man" . You can always ask yourself with Se "Is there something between the lines here?" There's not. Nobody is looking up "meaning to We Will Rock You" or are they? lol. There is no deeper or more intricate symbolism but the whole phrase is used to produce the emotion of just killing a man in this case... or whatever Freddy wants to produce in his crowd, he's great at it. ESFP is going to have a boost in drama both in rhythm and in visuals (whatever magic they do there.. they are masters of that domain) and exuberance. They will know how to get the crowd involved with tert Te and will likely bring their relationships with others into their work-- I don't think I'm describing that well. I know what I mean by it... I guess it's subtle like the difference between trying to primarily explain my feelings about you (Fi dom) versus how you make me feel (Fi aux)... so subtle.. maybe just a slight origin difference. ISFP is going to have some boost in connectivity of concept in the lyrics by way of tert Ni. Both are great at producing and atmosphere with the music and melodies. 

ESFP Freddy Mercury





ESFP Lady Gaga





ISFP Ed Sheeran (after examining ESFP lyrics you can see that little increase in Ni making a bit more focused overall concept). Anything between the lines? Not really. Awesome beats, right?





It's tougher with Lana Del Rey... her tert Ni seems very good to me. But then there's that Fi dom and we aren't seeing Te. So... cheers to Lana and her beautiful Fi-Se-Ni combo





Honorable mentions to so many people. ESFP Beyonce (but I don't think you can go by her lyrics, I don't know how much she does in the lyrics department) ISFP Sinead O'Connor is a favorite of mine and her Ni is also really really good. Try "Rebel Song" if you know anything about Irish history. To me her Fi bravery is just so beyond beyond. I admire her so much. ISFP Jeff Buckley (RIP, my love), what an amazing person he was, a total champion of individuality as well.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Other types.... 

I wish I could do the other types.... but I can't. I wouldn't even dare, I don't think. 
Tracy Chapman is likely ISTP but I can't think of any others who I listen to so I wouldn't know who to point out. Taylor Swift is likely an ESFJ and there seems to be plenty of Si in her songs. Missy Higgins is for sure an ISFJ and her song "Where I Stood" is super interesting from the aux Fe tert Ti perspective, imo. 

One extra thought.... when there is rhyming it sometimes throws me off because it naturally connects. So look for concepts beyond rhyming.


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

I used to think Tori Amos is NFJ story teller. Some of her songs lean that way or at least I interpret them that way (Yes Anastasia is a great example) but definitely the majority of her symbolism is sorta whimsical in the Ne way and the meaning is often very "tightly packed", incomprehensible to me unless I know from other context what the song is about, definitely introverted feeling there.

Compare to Cohen and Bush... whose emotional charge is easy to tell without fail, the real focus is in conveying that through the performance.. the meaning is easily reconcilable with it, and even without knowing the specifics of what they wrote it about a story emerges from the text itself. Especially relatable to me is the way Bush is inspired by some incident... makes a whole song about it from a particular, cohesive perspective. Thats most of the song on the Dreaming. The ninth wave is a whole journey in itself.

Just to add: Tori Amos writes a great song Sugar because a guy didn't know how she likes her tea. Kate Bush heard a story about how someone dined unbeknowst to them with Oppenheimer and wrote a song about dancing with Hitler. While Amos also discusses things that did not happen to her directly there is always a personal "attunement" to the issue, where as Bush seems to get into different roles and headspaces when narraring a story. Amos did this with American Doll Posse but the excecution still comes across introverted, like these archetypes are still parts of her, not perspectives of other people.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

DOGSOUP said:


> I used to think Tori Amos is NFJ story teller. Some of her songs lean that way or at least I interpret them that way (Yes Anastasia is a great example) but definitely the majority of her symbolism is sorta whimsical in the Ne way and the meaning is often very "tightly packed", incomprehensible to me unless I know from other context what the song is about, definitely introverted feeling there.
> 
> Compare to Cohen and Bush... whose emotional charge is easy to tell without fail, the real focus is in conveying that through the performance.. the meaning is easily reconcilable with it, and even without knowing the specifics of what they wrote it about a story emerges from the text itself. Especially relatable to me is the way Bush is inspired by some incident... makes a whole song about it from a particular, cohesive perspective. Thats most of the song on the Dreaming. The ninth wave is a whole journey in itself.
> 
> Just to add: Tori Amos writes a great song Sugar because a guy didn't know how she likes her tea. Kate Bush heard a story about how someone dined unbeknowst to them with Oppenheimer and wrote a song about dancing with Hitler. While Amos also discusses things that did not happen to her directly there is always a personal "attunement" to the issue, where as Bush seems to get into different roles and headspaces when narraring a story. Amos did this with American Doll Posse but the excecution still comes across introverted, like these archetypes are still parts of her, not perspectives of other people.


Yes! Thank you for interacting on this! I’m actually reconsidering Stevie Nicks and I will be looking into her more fully. . I realize there is almost no way that she could be INFP (her works don’t have a lot of personal SI symbols. She must be either ENFP or INFJ,.... so that’s the question that needs to be explored. She uses heavy symbolism, not an S by any stretch. We can look at Seventeen which was inspired by a personal experience of her uncle dying. She asks many questions and there are many concepts compared to other concepts. Is her work expansive or does her work concentrate? I think expansive. I think she must be ENFP.... but I will explore more of her lyrics. She does often in interviews mention past stories that have happened to her and that would also not be common with an NFJ. Actually now she is older I think I even see the tert Te. But I will look more deeply in her. 

Right. Fi symbolism is personal and the personal is the important part of it. So let’s look closer at what I mean by INFP personal symbols with SI. Using symbols heavily is of course is N but symbols are nouns of some sort. Person place thing or idea. Either an idea (concept) noun like the word “imagination” a universal tangible noun like “mirror” that holds some symbolism for almost anyone. Or a specific thing charged with personal sentiment (more SI) like a pearl necklace given by your grandma. Or an Se tangible would just serve whatever purpose youve got without personal sentiment or meaning.

Let’s look at Tori’s “Cloud On My Tongue” or “Me and a Gun” . Really she doesn’t care if her audience knows what she is alluding to by mentioning SI things that have a lot deeper meaning to her. She doesn’t expect that anyone else had the exact experience she did with that item and doesn’t expect people to immediately understand its deeper meaning to her. When she says “I haven’t seen Barbados so I must get out of this”. Then she isn’t expecting anyone to understand or feel what she feels when she mentions Barbados. . Barbados does not have the same meaning to anyone but her. It is a personal SI item symbolizing its meaning or significance to her and for her. She isn’t interested in explaining it to her audience. She Fi is caring about expressing how she herself feels in a way that adequately explores her own feelings and experience. What she is saying is symbolic to her but not to everyone. This almost never happens with Fe.

If Fe thinks that their experience is unique and wants to write about something they think is unique to them then they will say so outright . For Florence (from Florence and the machine) in the sing “Hunger” she does not make a secret inside the lyrics that she is discussing anorexia which happened to her then she proceeds to use the word in a universally symbolic way. By the way, Florence said in an interview that “Hunger” was almost too personal for her to publish I think. Compare if Tori ever feels that way... no... she can say “I’ll be wearing your tattoo” and she knows she said all her feelings and accurately but without many people understanding at all. And if they do, then they are kindred and it’s okay end comforting.

Some more personalized symbol examples (really tight ones—excellent command of language) come from Elbow. Look at “Grounds For Divorce”. He says “I’ve been working on a cocktail called grounds for divorce”. (So far that could be fairly universal except that it is such a personal circumstance to discuss) but then he says “Polishing a compass that I hold in my sleeve.... there’s a hole in my neighborhood down which of late I cannot help but fall”. The compass is his own symbolism... we don’t know what it means. He also mentions a cigarette case that obviously has personal SI symbolic meaning but we don’t know what. The hole could allude to a mistress but also alludes to the pub that he likes. So he is alluding to real things in his life or in the life of the character of the speaker that is either him or is made up, but you rarely would see personal Si symbols in an NJ song. Like never basically. Contrasting Bush and Cohen.. even writing Houdini or Babooshka... well let’s look at that. Houdini “Through a kiss I pass the key”. But there is no personal symbolism to the key here and the kiss is a universal symbol. Everyone would understand the symbol of the kiss here, that she is making the point that she is trying to save him ironically with this kiss. The key is to be taken at face value.. it is an actual key used to unlock locks. She shows both Ni and her tert Se in that sentence. 

Interestingly I don’t feel more from the Fe songs... not at all...I still feel much more when listening to Fi. So even something as personal as Tori’s “Cloud On My Tongue” which I heavily feel must be about her experience of being pregnant with her rapist’s child and her thoughts about how she in particular feels about the situation by feeling incredibly in love and connected to her daughter and worried about her daughter “Circles and circles again... the girls in circles and circles...”. “I’ll be wearing your tattoo!” Such personal use of nouns that are heavy with sentiment to her only. But the strength of those very personal feelings makes me cry every time I listen to that song. Fi to Fi. I put myself into her situation. Long before I had my own daughter I loved and felt protective of a possible future daughter when listening to the song. 

Fi (plus Ne?) can put itself into other people’s situations in imagination but in those situations you can still be looking for the personal nostalgic items to that person. Like how personal the meaning of Barbados or the tattoo is for Tori. Like Shakespeare writing Hamlet talking about Jorik’s skull. He uses the Si to discuss all sorts of concepts. What kind of things are personal for Hamlet? Shakespeare imagines sentimental items and puts them in there. With Ne and Fi can create many quirky diverse characters and they aren’t universal characters. 

Fe’s focus is on how other people feel and use Ni symbols in a Universal way. I would think anyone who had ever been in love with someone who loves less would identify with “How to shoot at someone who outdrew you”. We are talking about personal things or experiences, but universal ones. 

Maybe an easier way for someone to see it would be to ask the question “would this noun have meant something in the past to this person?” Barbados obviously meant something from before to Tori. . Kate Bush’s key did not have any prior meaning attached to it. David’s chord is universal and did not have anything personal from the past attached from it and if Cohen wants to say that there is prior personal attachment to an idea, he says it outright without symbolism like “But you don’t really care for music, do you?”

The more I talk about functions lately the more I see the whole axes of SI to Ne and Se to Ni. Like that you can’t have one without the other. Almost like we are never just talking about 8 functions but instead about 4 axes just balanced in different ways like teeter totters or levers.

Anyway, good discussion I hope! 

. I hope we can identify more NFJ artists.


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## autumnf4lls (May 2, 2020)

no ig i will






INTP


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

Llyralen said:


> Yes! Thank you for interacting on this! I’m actually reconsidering Stevie Nicks and I will be looking into her more fully. . I realize there is almost no way that she could be INFP (her works don’t have a lot of personal SI symbols. She must be either ENFP or INFJ,.... so that’s the question that needs to be explored. She uses heavy symbolism, not an S by any stretch. We can look at Seventeen which was inspired by a personal experience of her uncle dying. She asks many questions and there are many concepts compared to other concepts. Is her work expansive or does her work concentrate? I think expansive. I think she must be ENFP.... but I will explore more of her lyrics. She does often in interviews mention past stories that have happened to her and that would also not be common with an NFJ. Actually now she is older I think I even see the tert Te. But I will look more deeply in her.


I'm not too familiar with her but very heavy with symbolic imagery, N dominant seems fitting!



> Let’s look at Tori’s “Cloud On My Tongue” or “Me and a Gun” . Really she doesn’t care if her audience knows what she is alluding to by mentioning SI things that have a lot deeper meaning to her. She doesn’t expect that anyone else had the exact experience she did with that item and doesn’t expect people to immediately understand its deeper meaning to her. When she says “I haven’t seen Barbados so I must get out of this”. Then she isn’t expecting anyone to understand or feel what she feels when she mentions Barbados. . Barbados does not have the same meaning to anyone but her. It is a personal SI item symbolizing its meaning or significance to her and for her. She isn’t interested in explaining it to her audience. She Fi is caring about expressing how she herself feels in a way that adequately explores her own feelings and experience. What she is saying is symbolic to her but not to everyone. This almost never happens with Fe.


Yes I always feel like I have "decode" her, in a way. Oh, it doesn't have to be "Barbados" specifically, it's just what she chose to represent something she still wants to experience... every person has their "Barbados", surely. Some of it is easier, especially when familiar with her symbolism, but sometimes it can be really difficult to comprehend.



> By the way, Florence said in an interview that “Hunger” was almost too personal for her to publish I think. Compare if Tori ever feels that way... no... she can say “I’ll be wearing your tattoo” and she knows she said all her feelings and accurately but without many people understanding at all. And if they do, then they are kindred and it’s okay end comforting.


I've been thinking about Fi recognizing people in innate ways, you put it into words. Fe has to establish that feeling as something that exists somewhere else in the world. The difference is I'll hint at it to see if we are alike vs. I'll spell it out for you just to be sure.



> Some more personalized symbol examples (really tight ones—excellent command of language) come from Elbow. Look at “Grounds For Divorce”. He says “I’ve been working on a cocktail called grounds for divorce”. (So far that could be fairly universal except that it is such a personal circumstance to discuss) but then he says “Polishing a compass that I hold in my sleeve.... there’s a hole in my neighborhood down which of late I cannot help but fall”. The compass is his own symbolism... we don’t know what it means. He also mentions a cigarette case that obviously has personal SI symbolic meaning but we don’t know what. The hole could allude to a mistress but also alludes to the pub that he likes. So he is alluding to real things in his life or in the life of the character of the speaker that is either him or is made up, but you rarely would see personal Si symbols in an NJ song. Like never basically. Contrasting Bush and Cohen.. even writing Houdini or Babooshka... well let’s look at that. Houdini “Through a kiss I pass the key”. But there is no personal symbolism to the key here and the kiss is a universal symbol. Everyone would understand the symbol of the kiss here, that she is making the point that she is trying to save him ironically with this kiss. The key is to be taken at face value.. it is an actual key used to unlock locks. She shows both Ni and her tert Se in that sentence.


Agree with this. Bush in particular has almost cinematic quality to her writing. She sets the scene. Establishes the emotions. This is how it plays out. I can see everything she sings about as parts of the environment. When Tori brings up sensory things it almost doesn't seem sensory at all...? (This is something I've struggled with before when trying to make sense of Jung's descriptions.)



> Interestingly I don’t feel more from the Fe songs... not at all...I still feel much more when listening to Fi. So even something as personal as Tori’s “Cloud On My Tongue” which I heavily feel must be about her experience of being pregnant with her rapist’s child and her thoughts about how she in particular feels about the situation by feeling incredibly in love and connected to her daughter and worried about her daughter “Circles and circles again... the girls in circles and circles...”. “I’ll be wearing your tattoo!” Such personal use of nouns that are heavy with sentiment to her only. But the strength of those very personal feelings makes me cry every time I listen to that song. Fi to Fi. I put myself into her situation. Long before I had my own daughter I loved and felt protective of a possible future daughter when listening to the song.


Yes, you can't get much more Fi-Ne than potential relationship with future child. I still don't think I felt that way, I can't remember exactly. Listening to more of her songs, having picked up a theme, I must have thought about it, briefly, but not the way you describe.

Interestingly, when Bush approaches this topic, she chooses to write from various perspectives. Breathing is a warning from the child's perspective. Very Ni. This woman's work from the father's perspective. Well, I guess there is Kick Inside, but again it is focused around a story. All I know is I become very invested in those stories while listening to them. I find Tori's songs very touching but it is quite different from the way I can tune into Bush's emotion. 



> Fi (plus Ne?) can put itself into other people’s situations in imagination but in those situations you can still be looking for the personal nostalgic items to that person. Like how personal the meaning of Barbados or the tattoo is for Tori. Like Shakespeare writing Hamlet talking about Jorik’s skull. He uses the Si to discuss all sorts of concepts. What kind of things are personal for Hamlet? Shakespeare imagines sentimental items and puts them in there. With Ne and Fi can create many quirky diverse characters and they aren’t universal characters.


Oh, see! I never ever thought of the skull as a personal or sentimental thing to Hamlet, though, now reading the text, it does come across that way. Maybe I was too focused on what it was meant to signify to the audience... approaching death... and to suggest Hamlet's fascination/despair with this inevitability. I always look for sings of how things are going to end.



> Anyway, good discussion I hope!
> 
> . I hope we can identify more NFJ artists.


Yes! I should get back to listening to Nick Cave, I've never managed to figure that guy out... when I first heard O children, it was almost better than Cohen. Really, really adore that song. There are many songs of his that come across Ni/Se but I'm never not quite sure.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

DOGSOUP said:


> I'm not too familiar with her but very heavy with symbolic imagery, N dominant seems fitting!
> 
> 
> Yes I always feel like I have "decode" her, in a way. Oh, it doesn't have to be "Barbados" specifically, it's just what she chose to represent something she still wants to experience... every person has their "Barbados", surely. Some of it is easier, especially when familiar with her symbolism, but sometimes it can be really difficult to comprehend.
> ...


It’s so interesting hearing how we both experience these lyrics and lines as well. “I knew him Horacio. How oft have I kissed these lips”. Jorik’s skull was very personal to Hamlet except that the skull didn’t belong to him, so in that case it was the memories of Jorvik that were very personal to Hamlet and the memories the skull brought up and that he was sharing. For Se-Ni items in general aren’t very personal usually, so it makes sense that that isn’t an obvious connection. 

I will look into Nick Cave so that we can talk further on all of this! It’s so interesting. Until then here is something to discuss. 

“On My Own” from Les Miserqble seems so completely Fi to me—- and not enough S or N for me to tell either way. 




And “I Cant Make You Love Me If You Don’t.” Seems almost completely Fe to me without enough S or N to be sure for me.... except that I’m not quite sure of any of it without being able to detect other axes. 






And both of these address the same thing— unrequited love, but from two very different approaches. 

What do you think? Which one impacts you more? What would you say about one being Fi and the other Fe?


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

autumnf4lls said:


> no ig i will
> 
> 
> 
> ...


After you posted this I took some time to look up these lyrics up and totally agree with this pick for INTP. Sorry I didn’t write you sooner about it. Cool!


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## Deuce (Feb 16, 2021)

(Random observations)

- Fi-dom music :

INFP :











ISFP :











Idealism feeds a deep sense of longing to an imaginary place (paradise, Eden) which abolishes the painful separation of human consciousness with life. There's a both a sense of having lost it and of yearning for it, under the form of escaping into nature and drifting to sea (the latter is also something you see a lot into INFP poetry, see for example William Coleridge). Wild nature (or its concept) appears as something where the ideal place could be found. Not the "real" wilderness however (which I would guess is the realm of ISTP), more a pure concept of nature as would be evoked in musings around the four elements (fire, earth, water, air) or the golden ratio, or elementary colors. That's why Fi dom can be led to describe their identity with a unique romantic merging with the four elements or scattered endlessly into natural landscapes, there's a particular attirance for the more fluid elements which mimic the yearning of the soul for the perfect imaginary place (river, sea). This wild nature appears also under the form of mythological creatures and animals endowed with a soul. Also a lot of romantic songs unsurprisingly directly addressed to the lover as sort of long wailing which is drawn out, into which the singer completely drowns himself without looking for a direct impact on the listener but acquiring nonetheless an extreme intensity.

Differences in song writing between ISFP and INFP
- Pushing moral values. ISFP songwriters are much more assertive with that, with a few songs condemning others, while INFP song writer focus more on the wisdom and forgiveness that can be acquired after the hurt and the pain or in the middle of it. In INFP's case, a lot of songs revolving around what wisdom/existential understanding is to be found in life, what does it mean to be human, what does it mean to live through an experience ? Sometimes, what does it mean to be a human in the midst of other humans, which is a question which lends itself to more socially-engaged song writing.

- Rhythm. ISFP songwriters with Se and Ni looks like they know what they are musically aiming for early in life, not a lot of rhythmical detours and a very visual and cinegetic songwriting, which immediately evokes a particular setting, the style tends to remain coherent throughout the whole career. INFPs melody appear more exploratory, you can sometimes see how some have them have tried their hand at several different genres or patterns, the instrumentation can be a bit unrefined lacking if Si is not developed and there can be a sort of temptation towards lullaby or nursery rhythm almost, at the very least a soothing, calming sound.

(btw this is YvonneZemski, had to change account)


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## Deuce (Feb 16, 2021)

INFJ music : 
















First word that come to me is vision. When Ni is strong, the theme is about observing, seeing clearly, deciphering beyond the appearances and not be lured by the senses. The focus is on others, at a more intimate scale (a lover) or on observing society, either getting a snapshot of what it is, either in an even more encompassing way, through several period of times, which endows the songwriter to evoke imagery specific to certain societal / psychological trends such as christianity (See the Leonard Cohen example, which is basically a variation around Jesus Christ and crucifixion). Sometimes Ni is so developed that the visions conveyed acquire almost an esoteric character.


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

Llyralen said:


> As I said before I'm not sure if Alanis Morissette is ENTP or ENFP. She's very Ne dom. I'm kind of leaning towards ENTP.


potential ENTP example of Alanis.. critical subversion:





though some might suggest the same of enfp, perhaps with the frequent taking the piss out of the archetypes applied to her and her career on comedic sketch shows. though given she's seemingly drawn to the shows that severely lampoon her, it might of an ent'ish contest. though being able to tolerate dave coulier would seem more enfp. 

Atom & His Package can be reviewed as textbook NTP: 








Atom and His Package – Atom and His Package


Here is the tale of the boy standing in front of you / Not one word is exaggerated -- entirely true / A four square in chemistry, my agenda tonight / As I rock the house left, and




genius.com

















Atom and His Package – Dear Atom, You Do Not Want Children. Love, Atom


Opened up a letter, I wrote to myself / It was postmarked 7 years before / What are the reasons why I don't want no babies? / I will not insult intelligence and sit here and name




genius.com

















Atom and His Package – (Lord, It’s Hard To Be Happy When You’re Not) Using The Metric System


Twelve inches per foot, two pints in a quart / Why don't we make it easy? / The English system of measurement must be laid to history / We can use units of ten and convert with




genius.com









while all the NTs and probably a few others, too, are still fighting to claim Tom Lehrer:


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

@Rift. You’ve read (I hope) how I haven’t been sure of whether Alannis is ENTP or ENFP, do you have an argument either way on her? Anywhere that you are seeing TI and Fe instead of Fi and Te? Hmm, I bet we might know after watching some interviews.


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

Llyralen said:


> @Rift. You’ve read (I hope) how I haven’t been sure of whether Alannis is ENTP or ENFP, do you have an argument either way on her? Anywhere that you are seeing TI and Fe instead of Fi and Te? Hmm, I bet we might know after watching some interviews.


I'd side with ENTP. The stack order makes sense particularly in connection with her lyrics. . . and there's aspects which are reflective in interviews and other media.

given the stories behind "you oughta know" and "hands clean" also leads to this assumption of being an entp over an enfp. not to say enfp can't be passive aggressive, trollish and gleefully spiteful but again, it does play more how an entp might get revenge. 

she seems rather ne dom. and I'd say more ti reactive than fe.

**examples


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

@Rift "You Oughta Know" was why I thought she might be ENTP and not ENFP as well. We think rather alike you and I, don't we? I can't help mentioning it, Ne brother. =)


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

@Rift "You Oughta Know" was why I thought she might be ENTP and not ENFP as well. We think rather alike you and I, don't we? I can't help mentioning it, Ne brother. =)


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

@Deuce I don’t think I agree completely with all of your observations on this this time but I’m so glad you’re here! But for instance, why would an ISFP stand up for human rights more than an INFP? Wouldn’t just be these particular ISFPs versus these particular INFPs? Or do you not think so? Do you think ISFPs care more? Why would that be? Also... Tim Buckley had a lyricist. This is why I couldn’t use Beyoncé as an example with lyrics of an ESFP. But I’m sure I might have made some mistakes on that myself. 

Did you see what I wrote about more broad symbols for Ne dom versus often a step more personal for Ne aux? What do you think? I did talk about Cohen... that SI and Se divide really shows itself whenever there is symbolism. 

Again, I’m so glad you’re here! On PerC in general and not gone away. You know I love your writing and I look forward to more of your thoughts on lyrics.


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## Deuce (Feb 16, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> @Deuce I don’t think I agree completely with all of your observations on this this time but I’m so glad you’re here! But for instance, why would an ISFP stand up for human rights more than an INFP? Wouldn’t just be these particular ISFPs versus these particular INFPs? Or do you not think so? Do you think ISFPs care more? Why would that be? Also... Tim Buckley had a lyricist. This is why I couldn’t use Beyoncé as an example with lyrics of an ESFP. But I’m sure I might have made some mistakes on that myself.
> 
> Did you see what I wrote about more broad symbols for Ne dom versus often a step more personal for Ne aux? What do you think? I did talk about Cohen... that SI and Se divide really shows itself whenever there is symbolism.
> 
> Again, I’m so glad you’re here! On PerC in general and not gone away. You know I love your writing and I look forward to more of your thoughts on lyrics.


thank you Llyralen, I'm glad you're here too ! it's such an interesting thread, I hope someone will dive more into INTJ and INTP lyrics, maybe I'll try the second when I have more time. I think more broad symbols for Ne dom is exactly what it is, there's more of of a freedom with associating concepts while INFP seem to do it more in the context of a single emotional experience with a narrower focus. It seems to me that Ne dom songs have more of this universal thing to them, talking a universal langage naturally, whether INFP find something universally relatable after a longer while, by diving deep into themselves but there's on the surface a veneer of personal symbols that takes some time to decipher (but also creates an alluring mystery)

Haha, Tim Buckley had a lyricist, I typed him based on the consensus on personality database but it's true some lyrics just sound *NFP.

Mmh I don't think ISFP care more. the hypothesis I thought about was more about the way social issues were approached and the tone. 

Generally the ISFPs I know irl are more outspoken when they're morally shocked by something and they hesitate less to take action and explain to the other person why they're wrong. Whereas the INFPs I know are markedly less assertive. I think it"s just the distinction between Se and Ne. INFP starting with a moral offense would use Ne to try to expand their understanding of human nature so that what seemed "evil" or "dark" become acceptable and understood as a normal & worthy part of human nature, with the will underneath to built a more all-encompassing philosophy about human nature. So they don't frequently act on their offenses and anger and indignation leaks out instead in more cryptic and confusing ways. INFP also have an enhanced capacity when confronted with something they'd consider immoral to dream of an alternative with Ne. Alternative course of action, or an alternate perception of the situation. I think ISFP do the thing of expanding their understanding of human nature in a more encompassing way, but after they've taken action ? There's a clear difference of timing for me in the INFP and ISFP I know. 

It's a general distinction, with counter-examples and most I*FP hovering somewhere in the middle. If you're familiar with Fiona Apple, it's clear to me she's Fi-Ne just by how wildly experimental her music is but there's plenty of songs in her first albums about her viscerally reacting to some other person's lack of morals and pinning down the other person as being in fault. 

See Dylan an ISFP there : 






He's pretty direct about confronting the other person and showing them all the bad choices they have made. I don't have an example of an INFP songwriter doing so, Fiona Apple doesn't really come close, because she keeps shifting the focus back to how herself can't cope with the guy, so that any "character assassination" tends to feel a bit aborted. 






I need to think about the social-oriented songs by INFP ... The one I think of rn is a bit of far stretch. 






- > this one to me is a good example of how an ecological issue is used as a springboard to grasp some existential truth with all the song building to "Don't it always seem to go like you don't know what you've got till it's gone."

Maybe Bob Marley would be a good example, I'll look more into it.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

@tanstaafl28 This thread is more about type and lyrics that have already been written. Anyone can enjoy any music by any type and also songs without words too. 

I am more careful now about typing than I was when I wrote it. I take more time to be absolutely sure. John Lennon ENFP. But I still think there are a ton of interesting points that have held true over time in here. The discussion on Shakespeare’s inferior or tert Si (NFP versus NFJ) is still one of the best conversations I’ve had about literature and cognitive function. In general I think this is still some of my best work with cognitive functions.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

@tarmonk This thread. 

So @tanstaafl28 I accidentally flagged you.. but I thought you had seen this thread before too… so everything now makes sense. My inferior Si messed up! It often does…


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Llyralen said:


> @tanstaafl28 This thread is more about type and lyrics that have already been written. Anyone can enjoy any music by any type and also songs without words too.
> 
> I am more careful now about typing than I was when I wrote it. I take more time to be absolutely sure. John Lennon ENFP. But I still think there are a ton of interesting points that have held true over time in here. The discussion on Shakespeare’s inferior or tert Si (NFP versus NFJ) is still one of the best conversations I’ve had about literature and cognitive function. In general I think this is still some of my best work with cognitive functions.


Woah, that makes a whole lot of sense when I think about it. Shakespeare didn't care for historical accuracy for several reasons. He was more interested in creating meaning through mythology using the popular themes of the time. He was essentially a 16th-17th Century "pop culture" playwright. This all makes perfect sense with inferior Si.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

tanstaafl28 said:


> Woah, that makes a whole lot of sense when I think about it. Shakespeare didn't care for historical accuracy for several reasons. He was more interested in creating meaning through mythology using the popular themes of the time. He was essentially a 16th-17th Century "pop culture" playwright. This all makes perfect sense with inferior Si.


It sure does to me— he is more interested in the concepts and meaning from the story, with tons of Ne word-smithing, deep concepts, etc. Thanks for reading and your thoughts!


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Llyralen said:


> It sure does to me— he is more interested in the concepts and meaning from the story, with tons of Ne word-smithing, deep concepts, etc. Thanks for reading and your thoughts!


My undergrad certified me to teach English, Drama, and Public Speaking. I have a minor in Drama, so The Bard is sort of in my wheelhouse.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

I’ve been looking at Taylor Swift’s dominant Fe, Si aux Ne tert lyrics lately. Her Ne has grown with each album— very interesting to me to see tert Ne in action.


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