# NTs and hand gestures



## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

So I was thinking about how NTs animate themselves. There is a paragraph in Keirsey's PUMII that talks about how an NT will use hand gestures. It is on page 168, paragraph 3. If you don't have the book, here is the excerpt:



> Rationals prefer to appear unemotional when they communicate (and they can seem rather stiff), trying to minimize body-language, facial expression, and other non-verbal qualifiers as much as possible. But when they become animated their characteristic hand gestures express their need for precision and control. NTs will make one or both hands into claws or talons, as if to seize the idea they are discussing. They will also bend their fingers and grasp the space in front of them, turning and shaping their ideas in the air. They will use their fingers like a calculator, ticking off point after point, and they will take small objects at hand (salt and pepper shakers, pens and paper weights) and arrange them on a table or desk to help map out their ideas. But perhaps the most telling gesture of all is the apposition of the thumb against the finger tips, as if the NT is bringing an idea or an argument to the finest possible point and is savoring the precision.


I have personally noticed that I do all of these things when I get enthusiastic about an idea I am talking about. Does anyone else do any or all of these in the same situation?


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## Aquinius (Jan 6, 2012)

If I really get into an idea I usually get expressive with my hands to a point at which people get confused. I don't usually use 'claw' gestures as such, but I do tend to illustrate a lot things using a combo of odd hand gestures and speech. It seems to depend on my excitement level a lot of the time though.


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## knittigan (Sep 2, 2011)

I don't gesture with my hands at all when I speak unless I'm drunk. And then it's definitely circular, fluid movements.


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## Mr. Limpopo (Oct 7, 2011)

Oh my god. I use gestures so much that I can't stop. Once, I was told to stop doing it and I said OK, and as I started talking again, I found myself doing the same gesture.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

NO ONE hand gestures better than me. Im telling you I speak a whole other language with my hands. Everytime I talk especially if its about something I care about my hands are going a million miles a minute. So are my eyes the get bigger than smaller as I emphasize a point. I do a lot of wafting, chopping, clawing, and flowing motions with my hands. Its so ridiculous to see me do it. Now that I think about it I probably look SUPER animated lol. Now I feel silly.


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## Brainteaser (Jan 20, 2010)

Chipps said:


> NO ONE hand gestures better than me.


You sure about that











Chipps said:


> Im telling you I speak a whole other language with my hands. Everytime I talk especially if its about something I care about my hands are going a million miles a minute. So are my eyes the get bigger than smaller as I emphasize a point. I do a lot of wafting, chopping, clawing, and flowing motions with my hands. Its so ridiculous to see me do it. Now that I think about it I probably look SUPER animated lol. Now I feel silly.


There's nothing to feel silly about, many do it.

So to the OP, pretty much what everyone else said. However, I see gesticulation so much I doubt its anything even slightly exclusive to NTs. If it is, then how silly of me not to notice.


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## DeductiveReasoner (Feb 25, 2011)

I use hand gestures a lot. But people said I did it because I'm a *******, not an NT.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

Not _just_ hand gestures but the ones cited.


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## Brainteaser (Jan 20, 2010)

I still think its all the same, but if it makes you feel better I do minimize body movement when I'm cold or tired. It depends...


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

Brainteaser said:


> I still think its all the same, but if it makes you feel better I do minimize body movement when I'm cold or tired. It depends...


Nah, it won't hurt my feelings if other NTs don't. I just want to see if there's any truth to that statement.


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## Auringonpaiste (Aug 8, 2011)

I use gestures like this all the time. Especially the "bend their fingers and grasp the space in front of them, turning and shaping their ideas in the air" bit.


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## Brainteaser (Jan 20, 2010)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> Nah, it won't hurt my feelings if other NTs don't. I just want to see if there's any truth to that statement.


Actually what I meant to say, rather than 'if it makes you feel better' (Which actually doesn't fit now that I think about it), was more like 'if it will satisfy your curiosity'. It was a poor choice of words, didn't realize I was capable of that. What else have I said wrong? @[email protected]


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

Brainteaser said:


> Actually what I meant to say, rather than 'if it makes you feel better' (Which actually doesn't fit now that I think about it), was more like 'if it will satisfy your curiosity'. It was a poor choice of words, didn't realize I was capable of that. What else have I said wrong? @[email protected]


It's obvious isn't it? You need to reexamine everything you have ever said to me in order to fully rectify the confusion. Now hurry up before my life falls into disarray!


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## Brainteaser (Jan 20, 2010)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> It's obvious isn't it? You need to reexamine everything you have ever said to me in order to fully rectify the confusion. Now hurry up before my life falls into disarray!


SHIT! No, no, no this can't be happening!

*runs to the bathroom*


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## NikitaOneill (Jan 8, 2012)

I can look a bit like an italian when speaking.


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## wiarumas (Aug 27, 2010)

I'm very animated. I sometimes even change my voice and make sound effects to aid my hand gestures.... just like my father (who also happens to be an ENTJ).


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## Beyond_B (Feb 2, 2011)

Not sure, I don't notice most of the things I do.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

wiarumas said:


> I'm very animated. I sometimes even change my voice and make sound effects to aid my hand gestures.... just like my father (who also happens to be an ENTJ).


I just got a visual of a bunch of corporate executives making siren and animal noises while gesticulating wildly.


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## GhostProtagonist (Sep 30, 2011)

I'd feel really embarrassed if I started using hand gestures. It looks so comical when somebody needs to wave their limbs around to accompany their speaking. If what they had to say was interesting and worth listening to, they shouldn't need to use physical movement to attract attention. I've done them before for speech competitions (I'm the winner ahaha!) but that's about it. My arms remain at my sides, or in a guard depending on the situation.


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## Magnificent Bastard (Sep 22, 2010)

moonlightning said:


> I'd feel really embarrassed if I started using hand gestures. It looks so comical when somebody needs to wave their limbs around to accompany their speaking. If what they had to say was interesting and worth listening to, they shouldn't need to use physical movement to attract attention. I've done them before for speech competitions (I'm the winner ahaha!) but that's about it. My arms remain at my sides, or in a guard depending on the situation.


Are your arms too heavy or something?


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## wiarumas (Aug 27, 2010)

moonlightning said:


> I'd feel really embarrassed if I started using hand gestures. It looks so comical when somebody needs to wave their limbs around to accompany their speaking. If what they had to say was interesting and worth listening to, they shouldn't need to use physical movement to attract attention. I've done them before for speech competitions (I'm the winner ahaha!) but that's about it. My arms remain at my sides, or in a guard depending on the situation.


I find it comical for a person to NOT use their hands during a presentation. It looks completely unnatural and does not sell. It doesn't matter if your content is worth listening to if the audience isn't listening.

Besides, every public speaking course, training, seminar, etc I've ever been in has told us to use your hands. Take a look at TED and let me know how many presenters don't use their hands.

This probably won't work right but its a playlist of the top 10 most viewed TED presentations:


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## GhostProtagonist (Sep 30, 2011)

wiarumas said:


> I find it comical for a person to NOT use their hands during a presentation. It looks completely unnatural and does not sell. It doesn't matter if your content is worth listening to if the audience isn't listening.
> 
> Besides, every public speaking course, training, seminar, etc I've ever been in has told us to use your hands. Take a look at TED and let me know how many presenters don't use their hands.
> 
> This probably won't work right but its a playlist of the top 10 most viewed TED presentations:


I know, I stated I used them for speech competitions. It just seems funny when people make HUGE gestures when talking in a car for example.


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## Mind Swirl (Sep 7, 2011)

I use lot of gesturing at times, mostly when attempting to explain. However, I've heard some cultures talk with their hands and it is an important part of communication. I wonder how that would be taken into account as they aren't all NTs.



> NTs will make one or both hands into claws or talons, as if to seize the idea they are discussing. They will also bend their fingers and grasp the space in front of them, turning and shaping their ideas in the air.


Yep. I know an NF who does the same. 


> They will use their fingers like a calculator, ticking off point after point, and they will take small objects at hand and arrange them on a table or desk to help map out their ideas.


Like a calculator, yes that's a good way of explaining it. I tend to draw illustrations if I can rather than use objects though. 


> But perhaps the most telling gesture of all is the apposition of the thumb against the finger tips, as if the NT is bringing an idea or an argument to the finest possible point and is savoring the precision.


No, not really.


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## Muser (Jul 17, 2011)

Rather than gesturing, my hands are usually fiddling with something.


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## Empecinado (May 4, 2010)

I know I often uses the finger to thumb gesture.

I find that the gestures often act as a prompt as to how I want to express something.


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## Beyond_B (Feb 2, 2011)

I noticed that I hold my chin, and tend to touch the area near my ears. I also like holding an object while talking(wallet, pen, etc.)
Trying to find out the other things I do while talking.


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## Perhaps (Aug 20, 2011)

I do pretty much all of those, but only if I get _really_ into a conversation or debate. But I'm usually doing something with my hands while I talk, anyway. It feels unnatural to hold perfectly still, so if I don't have a pen or something to play with, I'll fidget a bit. This gets misread as anxiety, especially by NFs I associate with, but it's mostly that I find it easier to think if I'm moving around a little.


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## KittyKraz13 (Jan 3, 2012)

My friends laugh at my gestures sometimes because I get so animated, and normally I'm rather stoic. I definitely do the finger-calculator thing, and I'll use my fingers to tick off points as I go along. I also do the thumb-to-fingertips thing, and the claws. I don't think I 'move' the thought the, instead I seem to squish it and string it out. XD treat it more like clay than a giant ball of nothing.


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## Pianoasis (Nov 10, 2011)

When I was in like 3rd grade I had this weird habit to talk with my hand and I thought it was pretty funny. It was like a joke between my friend and I but I got way too into it and then I was talking to everyone by moving my hand like it was talking.


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## Sea Anenome (Mar 11, 2011)

On several occasions I've found myself doing "calculator fingers" to tick off points.


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## PBedingfield (Jan 28, 2012)

The only gesture I perform repeatedly is supporting my head with my hand, it’s rather heavy :/


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## Flowers (Feb 11, 2012)

I am known for my hand gestures when I speak. I do it without even realizing it for the most part to be honest.


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## ENTJam (Nov 15, 2010)

I normally hold SOMETHING in my hand. Normally a pen, and I keep turning the pen around... During a lunch, I was holding a plastic bottle as if I was holding a baseball with gloves. hehehe.

Also, I use hand gestures to convey my point better through telefone conversations.

:crazy:


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## TheOperator (Feb 11, 2012)

Using my hands while speaking only distracts myself and frightens my listeners.


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## TheBoss (Oct 27, 2011)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> > *Rationals prefer to appear unemotional when they communicate (and they can seem rather stiff), trying to minimize body-language*, facial expression, and other non-verbal qualifiers as much as possible. But when they become animated their characteristic hand gestures express their need for precision and control. NTs will make one or both hands into claws or talons, as if to seize the idea they are discussing. They will also bend their fingers and grasp the space in front of them, turning and shaping their ideas in the air. They will use their fingers like a calculator, ticking off point after point, and they will take small objects at hand (salt and pepper shakers, pens and paper weights) and arrange them on a table or desk to help map out their ideas. But perhaps the most telling gesture of all is the apposition of the thumb against the finger tips, as if the NT is bringing an idea or an argument to the finest possible point and is savoring the precision.


I do consciously minimize gesturing, because I read - extensively as usual - on the subject and so I know what people expect by certain body postures and gestures.
In addition most of those books are localized crap or erroneous personal observations. For example they may say "hands in pockets/waist for a female = she needs sex/she is bossy" while she merely tries to rest her hands...Remember not looking to the eyes, is polite in Japan, and devious in Greece. A gesture meaning big p'nis in usa, means small p'nis somewhere else (I don't remember the _else_ place atm).
Because such theories are mostly crap, they forget the localization factor.

Then we have the business "how to get through interview" crap theories on stance, posture and gestures and the psychological crap books about how too many gestures can mean a variety of things from inability to express solely through words to Apathy if ones gestures too little.
I say crap because while they are valid in parts, the majority of these theories is wrong (not all ofc).

So, I take into account all I have read and what people believe gestures mean and therefore I control the number of my gestures. In short I do the part of your quote I put in bold. The reasons aforementioned.
To the degree I have noticed, I do anything BUT claw. In fact I do the opposite: I stretch. My fingers more than anything. I see it as energy but some may get intimidated and see it tension/anger (probably because - for some - a stretched hand often comes before a bitchslap).
If I move my hands, are big circular "encompassing" moves. When in goofy friendly mood, I do big gestures and am quite animated. 
In a sense, I expand, I don't compress. Except when:
If I am pissed, or in guard, I turn silent, rigid, immovable. No gestures whatsoever. Voice lowers down too. My physics explanation is the body works like a spring, fully compressing, no elasticity, unconsciously maximizing storage of potential energy to release at max/infinitum when unleashed.

I almost never do the thumb-fingers thingy. That is part of an Italian gesture to say food is tasty or something that is good/beautiful. And perhaps it means other things too elsewhere (French use it too iirc? ), but it is a localized gesture nevertheless.
It is an acquired gesture. *If* I use it, it means different things each time, and the usage depends solely on the country of origin of the person I am discussing with.
Country x: you do it and kiss the tips? Means 'mucho gusto'.
Country Y: you do it in a downwards vertical move? Means owned in an 'up yours' context; "suits you well ha!"
Etc etc...

In short, I think the quoted theory is too biased and furthermore narrowmindedly localized.


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## natOfbar (Feb 18, 2012)

My arms and hands speak a language of their own whenever I get excited about something. I sometimes wear myself out gesticulating.


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