# Caring about others' feelings: Thinking vs. Feeling



## AussieChick (Dec 27, 2010)

Nonconsensus said:


> Have you read this? http://personalitycafe.com/myers-br...ean-fs-exposing-myth-fs-overly-sensitive.html


Yes I did read the article,thank you very much for posting the link.


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

lirulin said:


> So we skip steps? I can see that...it might help with the arrogant/pushy perception that we can get sometimes too...


Well, I think this is a general S vs. N thing. I talk about it some in this thread. Even though I know everything in the OP isn't accurate, it describes a general vibe I sometimes get.

http://personalitycafe.com/myers-briggs-forum/40301-bridging-sensor-intuitive-communication-gap.html


Basically, I think Ns tend to look at the big picture, and therefore they tend to jump right to a final conclusion. I think they're able to do this well and are satisfied with it, so they feel like a lot of the details are unnecessary and bog them down. This is where Ss and Ns can sometimes have frustrations with one another...Ss want the details so they feel like everything is taken care of, Ns think they're a waste of time and want to get right to the final point. 

I think because Ns, especially NTs, are able to do this so well, I agree that it might explain part of the reason why NTs are looked at as arrogant sometimes. 



SPs probably don't care as much about the details, but due to Si I think SJs find them very important...especially ISJs. While this attention to detail can be a strength, it also leads to conflicts with those who find the details trivial. It's probably a reason why Ns find SJs so overbearing, especially when the SJ is in an authority position.


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## Monkey King (Nov 16, 2010)

For the most part, I try to help people close to me. It won't seem like I am because I am guilty of skipping all the process and begin near conclusion. I think I do this because it's difficult to stay through the process. When there's a problem, I like to fix it right away. If it doesn't work, then I'll try a different way. But after many attempts of helping a close friend of mine through her/his problems and failing each time I become anxious. I internalize this experience and see it as my personal failure as a friend. 

Additionally, I find it hard to say the right words of comfort. Especially when I haven't gone through what they've experienced. I become uncomfortable not because of all the emotion but because I don't want to feign empathy. I don't want to say, "I understand," when I don't. I think friends deserve more respect from me that false comforting statements said out of obligation. I have caught myself once saying, " I'm sorry that happened, I can't relate," and beat myself up for it afterwards thinking it was probably the wrong thing to say. 

What seems to work for me is when someone is through with the process and ready to repair the damage. That's where I usually can help. The end is usually where I step in to help with the start of their healing and when my caring of others can be seen clearly through actions.


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## Nonconsensus (May 19, 2011)

teddy564339 said:


> http://personalitycafe.com/myers-briggs-forum/40301-bridging-sensor-intuitive-communication-gap.html
> 
> This is where Ss and Ns can sometimes have frustrations with one another...Ss want the details so they feel like everything is taken care of, Ns think they're a waste of time and want to get right to the final point.
> 
> SPs probably don't care as much about the details, but due to Si I think SJs find them very important...especially ISJs. While this attention to detail can be a strength, it also leads to conflicts with those who find the details trivial.


I don't know about other NTs, but I don't reject details. The issue for me is not about the amount of details, but _what kind_ of details, and in what order of priority they're put into.

I need to know the facts of the situation: 5 Ws and 1 H (who what when where why, how). And I need to know what you're thinking after that.

^ Without this, I cannot understand where you're coming from or what the issue is. I'm a lot more receptive when people tell me the above first - the concern (or lack of concern...) follows naturally afterward.

Otherwise, I don't know what they want from me. Are they looking for a fix, a listening ear or? Perhaps this is deemed as going straight to the problem, I don't know - but this isn't me trying to be arrogant.

I've just been to that N/S link. I don't have huge problems with SPs, but not because they don't care for the details. The SPs that I know tend to hold conversations with me via Q&A style - they don't understand something I said (maybe because I skipped too many things), so they ask specific questions and I answer, and vice versa. This applies to SFPs and STPs. With STJs, we stick to the facts. as for SFJs, I go through a lot of guesswork.

I don't think Ss are dumb - but it doesn't stop the interpretation error from happening. Sometimes I find myself trying to get through their impressions that "I'm trying to make them look stupid", when I'm actually confused by what they're saying or asking. This problem isn't exclusive to S though, but for different reasons.



> I think that I know their intent is good and that they're trying to help in the long run...but the step by step emotional process is very important to me. I think it's because of my Si...every detail and step along the way resonates with me, along with the emotional pain that I feel attached to it. So when that emotional bond isn't there, I have a hard time trusting people, and therefore have a hard time listening to what they're saying.


Please don't view this as an attempt to make you feel dumb or anything like that. I'm having some issues with an ISFJ friend recently, and I think what you're describing might be the core issue to our interaction.

I'm actually quite aware of my ISFJ friend's different moods and emotional states, not because I feel what he feels, but because I pay attention to patterns in which people carry themselves. But being aware doesn't necessarily translate to knowing the source of those states, what I need to do or if I even need to do anything. I know how I deal with my emotions, but it doesn't mean my personal method works on others.

I want to solve these issues, so I have some questions.

I don't understand what the step by step emotional process is. Are the chances of conflict higher online because of the lack of physical cues for you? Are they words or something else? How are words interpreted?

From what I understand of Si, it's a deeply personal sense of attachment to things. But what these things are will only show from the recounts of Si-Doms - the more enthusiasm and fondness they display when describing the experiences, the more attached they are to them. My ISTJ mother has no problems recounting her days with my uncle's dogs every weekend and by now I can predict when she's going to start talking about the dogs - with the same level of enthusiasm. It's as if there's something going on there that I'm not seeing.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but do Si-Doms feel threatened when people they feel close to make remarks that contradict what they hold dear? Does it affect you deeply, if for example, making games is your passion and I, as a close friend, happen to talk about the corrupt practices of game makers? Would you start to associate "me" as an "antagonist" to your passion, which you regard as part of your identity, and then avoid me, regardless of what my general conduct is?

From the Si-Doms I know, it does feel to me that they _know_ what they want or don't want, but they can't really describe what they are - and this can be a potential problem area for me unless they have a strong sense of self awareness.

Is it correct, that SJs are a collection of histories with fixed interpretations? A few Si-Doms I know seem very afraid of the way I "look" like I'm changing, and that may seem to them a change in the relationship I have with them. It didn't occur to me before until now, but it now seems that I have to learn their entire histories, which I cannot guarantee an equal trade on my part, because if Si-Doms are walking collections of histories, Ni-Doms are walking maps of interpretations - and interpretations can be changed. (The facts of the situations however, don't change, which may be why I don't have many problems with STJs.)

I feel like I'm going off on tangents, but it doesn't look as simple as T vs F to me.

It would be very helpful for me if you can relate or correct whatever that's written above, because then I would be able to understand why my Si-Dom friends/family can't seem to move on from negative experiences, not because they don't want to, but because they need to accumulate experiences that are positive and work to affirm _experiences_, not _ideas_, of the relationships they have with those in their lives.

I like to rework the existing interpretations, but if I try to do that with my Si-Dom friends/family, I might have been wasting time all along, and may even be building negative experiences with them without both of us realizing what's happening. As lirulin says, I must not feel coerced into doing this.

It's difficult though, when my Si-Dom friends/family have somehow accumulated weird ideas/experiences about me, and they sometimes don't hesitate to use that "information" to misinterpret my words and actions (misinterpretations get on my nerves _very_ quickly). There's no telling what they're accumulating either.

(Also, does this apply to Si-auxiliary and -tertiary?)



As for the caring part, my subjective experience tells me that concern has never been T/F related - it has only taught me how different people speak different "concern languages", and some take more time than others to learn. Although it is a lot of work and I might not even agree with some of them, I just want to understand.


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## MrShatter (Sep 28, 2010)

I also think it's a communication thing. I've noticed that NTs are better with me than STs. The opposite to your situation. I've also seen problems with SFs picking up on feelings of NTs. Overall I think it's mainly communication. 
Keep in mind too that with ExxJs - their top function is Je which is responsible for making decisions in the external world.


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## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

Since I'm trying to decide if I'm ENFP or ENTP, I have a question based on what I've read on this thread. Does the fact that I don't respond to emotional- or wanting-based requests put me more in the T category? Or not? An example would be if I've decided to leave a group and go elsewhere for the evening but they put pressure on me to go with them for emotional reasons, their emotional need won't have me changing my mind in order to please them or keep the harmony. Is that apart from Myers-Briggs or a T/F issue? Would that make me more ENFP or ENTP, or unknown?


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## Linnifae (Nov 13, 2009)

I'm an ENFP and very much care about the feelings of others when they make sense to me. Sometimes get emotional over things in a way that seems completely ridiculous and then I simply cannot be bothered to worry about it or understand it.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Sarah said:


> Since I'm trying to decide if I'm ENFP or ENTP, I have a question based on what I've read on this thread. Does the fact that I don't respond to emotional- or wanting-based requests put me more in the T category? Or not? An example would be if I've decided to leave a group and go elsewhere for the evening but they put pressure on me to go with them for emotional reasons, their emotional need won't have me changing my mind in order to please them or keep the harmony. Is that apart from Myers-Briggs or a T/F issue?


It could depend in this case - ENTPs have Fe and ENFPs have Fi. As I am a T with Fi I am doubly resistant to group feeling. An ENTP has enough Fe they could feel some group push, though it is not a high function and the T makes them less likely to make decisions using emotional processing, an ENFP enough Fi they could pull away from Fe pressure, although plenty of sympathy for people, in groups or no (if they like them). I suspect how you think it through would be a better clue - some Fs can pick up on manipulation behind emotional requests, as they do read people a lot - and can dislike it, but might respond more to emotional appeals that seem very authentic/genuine, as Fi loves that. Have you looked up the cognitive functions at all? They usually help clarify things.


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## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

lirulin said:


> It could depend in this case - ENTPs have Fe and ENFPs have Fi. As I am a T with Fi I am doubly resistant to group feeling. An ENTP has enough Fe they could feel some group push, though it is not a high function and the T makes them less likely to make decisions using emotional processing, an ENFP enough Fi they could pull away from Fe pressure, although plenty of sympathy for people, in groups or no (if they like them). I suspect how you think it through would be a better clue - some Fs can pick up on manipulation behind emotional requests, as they do read people a lot - and can dislike it, but might respond more to emotional appeals that seem very authentic/genuine, as Fi loves that. Have you looked up the cognitive functions at all? They usually help clarify things.


My thought processes say that I know what I want at any particular moment, and I'm not put on earth to please others' whims, particularly since everyone has a different idea as to what I should do, so I go my own way no matter what others want of me unless there is a true need for me to be somewhere, in which case I can be counted on to join in or help out. I try to keep harmony in this regard by making it clear from day one that I'm not to be counted on to be any particular place, even for holidays, unless I've made a promise to be there, and those promises are *very* difficult to get from me, lol. I wonder if this is more T or F?

I've read every site and book I can find on cognitive functions and it's frequently not clear to me which one I'm using. For example, are the following values or logic?

Grizzly bears should be encouraged because studies have shown where grizzly bears can survive, the ecosystem remains healthy.

Grizzly bears should be kept out because they kill people and so-called unhealthy ecosystems will recover at some point without the help of dangerous carnivores.

The first "values" bears over the occasional human life, the second "values" human safety over shorter-term ecosystem gain. The first has logic, the second has logic. I would choose one of them but I don't know if the basis would be more values or logic. It's confusing to me, particularly since my head is full of this type of theoretical and philosophical stuff.


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

@Nonconsensus Alrighty, I have a whole lot to say about this and a lot of explanation as to what goes on inside my head personally, so I hope you're ready for a lot of reading. 




Nonconsensus said:


> I don't know about other NTs, but I don't reject details. The issue for me is not about the amount of details, but _what kind_ of details, and in what order of priority they're put into.
> 
> I need to know the facts of the situation: 5 Ws and 1 H (who what when where why, how). And I need to know what you're thinking after that.
> 
> ...


I think my response to this will probably be covered in my response to what's below. I think the main thing for me goes back to what I said before about trusting someone emotionally. The more I can do that, the more open I can be with them involving communication, and that makes it a lot easier to understand their intent and understand that they're not being arrogant, that they're just looking to help (assuming that is what their intent is).





Nonconsensus said:


> Please don't view this as an attempt to make you feel dumb or anything like that. I'm having some issues with an ISFJ friend recently, and I think what you're describing might be the core issue to our interaction.
> 
> I'm actually quite aware of my ISFJ friend's different moods and emotional states, not because I feel what he feels, but because I pay attention to patterns in which people carry themselves. But being aware doesn't necessarily translate to knowing the source of those states, what I need to do or if I even need to do anything. I know how I deal with my emotions, but it doesn't mean my personal method works on others.
> 
> ...


This is a little tough to go into too deeply without a specific example/situation, but I'll do my best to at least talk about some of the process.


For me, when I have a problem, I think the first step that helps me take in someone's advice is building my trust in them and their intent. Usually, what this means, is that when I tell them about the problem, I have to know that they're listening, and I have to know that they care. 

I think what happens sometimes, especially with thinkers and maybe with NTs the most, is after I mention the problem, the person will go straight to offering their solution or advice. Now, to an NT, who may not as many emotional barriers and doesn't think as sequentially as an Si dom might, they see this as the most efficient way to solve the problem and the way they can be the most help. I get the impression that NTs kind of thrive on this kind of problem solving...it's almost as if it's what drives them to live. They feel as though the best way for them to be of service in the situation is to jump right in and start fixing things (I've noticed this particularly in ENTJs, who I tend to have the most trouble with).


But the problem is (and I've discussed this with @lirulin before) is that sometimes I feel like when someone does this, they're not truly listening to me as a person. I feel invalidated...it's almost like I feel like they're looking past me and just focusing on the problem. It's almost like I don't trust their motives...I don't know why they're doing what they're doing. Even if their intent is to help, if I can't clearly see that, then I might think they have other reasons...either just because they have satisfaction in solving the problem, that they're bossy, that they think they know everything, that they're trying to prove how smart they are, etc. 

To someone like me who can have confidence issues (which I've noticed tend to be prevalent in ISFJs), it often makes me feel worse about the issue. I've read ISFJs have a hard time asking for help and try to do everything ourselves (and I think there are a lot of reasons for that), so I think that when we do ask for help and feel like the other person is simply trying to prove how good they are at fixing things, it just makes us feel horrible. In turn, we're likely to reject their advice because we're afraid of them being right. Even if it fixes the current problem, in the long run it can make us feel even worse.


Now, I understand how completely irrational this all is, and how it might even sound insane. And keep in mind, I can only speak for myself, not all ISFJs. But assuming other ISFJs are pretty similar in this, you can see how an NT approach to helping or solving a problem can cause some initial friction and complication. This is especially true for someone who knows nothing about the MBTI and how others are different from themselves. Since learning about the MBTI and how others are different than me, it has made it much, much easier for me to understand how others have different ways of helping and how they operate...it makes it much easier for me to trust them.


Anyway, that aside, I think for an ISFJ, what makes us more likely to build that trust with someone is if we know that the other person is listening to our problem, that they care about us, and that they support us. It helps if we know they don't think any less of us because of our problem and that it's ok for us to ask for help. I think if all of these kinds of things can be established before the problem itself is approached, it makes us much more receptive.

I've also noticed that for me, a lot of times I kind of have to get all of the emotion out of my system before I can think clearly about something. What helps so much is for me to vent...to let out all of my fear, anger, frustration, sadness, etc...and that's why it's so important to feel like the other person is listening. If I know they care about all of my emotions, then I get just spill them all out. Once I've done that, I can listen more clearly to the advice they're giving and I can focus my attention on logically solving the problem.


I've had discussions with some NTs that don't feel as though they should have to do any of this in order to solve the problem. I do understand this mentality, and I agree that ISFJs should make an effort to try to get past some of this irrational behavior. However, I think if we're talking about a legitimate friendship here, it's best if both sides make an effort to step out of what they're used to in order to make it all work out. So because you want to help your ISFJ friend, I hope you'll at least consider some of what I've said here. 










NonConsensus said:


> From what I understand of Si, it's a deeply personal sense of attachment to things. But what these things are will only show from the recounts of Si-Doms - the more enthusiasm and fondness they display when describing the experiences, the more attached they are to them. My ISTJ mother has no problems recounting her days with my uncle's dogs every weekend and by now I can predict when she's going to start talking about the dogs - with the same level of enthusiasm. *It's as if there's something going on there that I'm not seeing.*


You are exactly right, and I think this is something that frustrates us ISJs very much so, particularly ISFJs. It is a blessing and a curse of dominant Si.

I've read in MBTI books that ISJs have a "rich, inner world". And the thing for ISJs is that we can get joy and pleasure out of the simplest things in our lives, and I think it's in a way that none of the other types can or can completely understand. We don't mind keeping things the same and keeping them simple...some of the happiest moments in my life have come from enjoying things and places that I've been doing since I was a kid. One of my favorite examples is my avatar. While I'm certainly a bit unique among ISFJs in this regard, I amaze myself in how much comfort and joy I get out of my teddy bear that I've had since I was a kid. A cheap, simple bit of cloth and fluff that is worthless to pretty much everyone else on the planet gives me a sense of peace and comfort that many don't understand. While it might be a mark of insanity to others, I view it as one of the easiest and cheapest ways to get happiness.

The positive of this is that we can get so much happiness out of so little sometimes. It saves us a lot of time, energy, effort and money. We can get joy and satisfaction over things that are very readily accessible.

The negative is that other types don't understand this. They find it boring, plain and rigid. SPs are looking for exciting new experiences, and Ns are looking for new possibilities. When ISJs are interacting with them, we can't share the joy we get out of these simple things with them, and for ISFJs, I think it makes us feel a disconnect in that regard.


That was kind of a tangent, but one I find quite interesting.





NonConsensus said:


> Correct me if I'm mistaken, but do Si-Doms feel threatened when people they feel close to make remarks that contradict what they hold dear? Does it affect you deeply, if for example, making games is your passion and I, as a close friend, happen to talk about the corrupt practices of game makers? Would you start to associate "me" as an "antagonist" to your passion, which you regard as part of your identity, and then avoid me, regardless of what my general conduct is?


Once again, you are exactly right. Well, at least for me, and I would imagine ISFJs. ISTJs might be more likely to just shrug off your opinion. But I think an ISFJ would take it to heart and be quite hurt, making it very hard to trust you.

It kind of goes back to what I mentioned earlier...we make such strong attachments to things. That's part of what our dom-Si does...we find something we like, and we want to keep it that way. For ISFJs, I think this bond can be very deep and emotional. In some ways it's what we live for, it's what gives us the most satisfaction and happiness in life.

So when someone makes a comment like that, it may mean very little to that person...it may just be a conversation starter, or a bit of information, or a simple fact. But to an ISFJ, it can be very threatening, because it seeks to remove our happiness from what we know for sure we've got.

I'll go back to my teddy bear example, just because it's a fun one for me. :wink: Of course, I don't tell the vast majority of people that I still have it, but let's say that I did. Apart from the obvious potential ridicule, let's say that someone said "You know, it was probably made by a kid in a sweatshop who was suffering in horrible conditions." (I have no idea about any of the truth of this statement, I'm just using it as an example). What this person has now done is give me a reason to think negatively about something that is very dear to me, and therefore has taken away from or threatened my happiness. Even if the statement/fact is simply logical, it can do a lot of damage. In turn, this hurt can lead an ISFJ to immediately have a problem with someone just for bringing it up. Again, if that trust isn't there, then the intent of the person isn't known, and that can lead the ISFJ to shutting that person out and holding a grudge against them.


I think ISJs, much moreso than NTs, tend to focus on their own personal worlds and what's right in front of them. In my own world, I focus on what my teddy bear means to me, not all of the physical facts about what it really is or what the "big picture" of the whole situation can be.

Of course, ISFJs can get better at this as time goes on. I think one thing I've learned to do over the years is to find a way to separate my own personal world of comfort and happiness from the intellectual, discussion based outside world. That way, I can have these discussions when necessary and look at the situation logically, but at the same time I can retreat back into my own world of happiness during my personal time. I've found this is useful when discussing topics such as religion.





NonConsensus said:


> From the Si-Doms I know, it does feel to me that they _know_ what they want or don't want, but they can't really describe what they are - and this can be a potential problem area for me unless they have a strong sense of self awareness.


Hmm...I don't think I know exactly how to reply to this. A lot of times I associate what I want with who I am. Hopefully my responses here will still be helpful to you, though.





NonConsensus said:


> Is it correct, that SJs are a collection of histories with fixed interpretations? A few Si-Doms I know seem very afraid of the way I "look" like I'm changing, and that may seem to them a change in the relationship I have with them. It didn't occur to me before until now, but it now seems that I have to learn their entire histories, which I cannot guarantee an equal trade on my part, because if Si-Doms are walking collections of histories, Ni-Doms are walking maps of interpretations - and interpretations can be changed. (The facts of the situations however, don't change, which may be why I don't have many problems with STJs.)


I don't know exactly how it plays out in ESJs, but this is definitely true for ISJs. It's really hard for us to deal with change, especially sudden change, and the unknown. This is why Ne and ENPs give us so much trouble and stress sometimes. It's really hard for us to accept people changing, and it's something we worry about. Sometimes we worry too much and are constantly checking in with people. Once again, it goes back to trust...it's hard to trust in someone if we don't know what to expect from them.




NonConsensus said:


> I feel like I'm going off on tangents, but it doesn't look as simple as T vs F to me.


Well, certainly for ISFJs and NTs, there's a whole lot that plays into this. I've had many interesting discussions with NTs about a lot of topics that have shown this.





NonConsensus said:


> It would be very helpful for me if you can relate or correct whatever that's written above, because then I would be able to understand why my Si-Dom friends/family can't seem to move on from negative experiences, not because they don't want to, but because they need to accumulate experiences that are positive and work to affirm _experiences_, not _ideas_, of the relationships they have with those in their lives.
> 
> I like to rework the existing interpretations, but if I try to do that with my Si-Dom friends/family, I might have been wasting time all along, and may even be building negative experiences with them without both of us realizing what's happening. As lirulin says, I must not feel coerced into doing this.



Hopefully some of my above responses might shed some light.







NonConsensus said:


> It's difficult though, when my Si-Dom friends/family have somehow accumulated weird ideas/experiences about me, and they sometimes don't hesitate to use that "information" to misinterpret my words and actions (misinterpretations get on my nerves _very_ quickly). There's no telling what they're accumulating either.


Well, sometimes there's only so much you can do. A lot of this can come down to personal growth, and that's not something that can be forced on someone, particularly an ISJ...they have to see it in themselves. 

I know for me, I've grown a whole lot these past two years. Learning about the MBTI has helped me so much...I've gotten to understand others and myself really well, and I've been able to work a lot on my weaknesses and improving my confidence.  But it takes a while, and it was something I really had to see in myself...it's not something that could be forced on me.

And that's the way it is with ISFJs, I think...we have a really hard time changing, and usually we have to see a really good reason to change. I've always felt like the best thing others can do is not to force us to change, but instead to just kind of get the ball rolling to get us to think about things in our lives that can be improved. We have a habit of sticking with something, even if it's not optimal, rather than risking losing it for the chance to achieve something better. That's what dominant Si does to us. It takes having good experiences with change to make us realize change can be a good thing.


As far as what they think about you...sometimes it might just be best to ask them. Like I mentioned earlier, if you ask, and just listen instead of trying to refute or argue (even if what you're saying is completely accurate), you might be able to find out more information. Then you can use that information to work on changing their perceptions. It's kind of hard for me to say more without knowing more about the situation.




NonConsensus said:


> (Also, does this apply to Si-auxiliary and -tertiary?)


From what I can tell, not with the tertiary, at least not in a way that I understand. It's hard to say with auxiliary...I think you'd have to ask ESJs. It's probably similar, but also quite different.




Anyway...as always, all I've said can only truly be attributed to me, not all ISFJs...but I'm willing to bet there's a lot of similarity. I know we can be really hard to understand and I know we can be irrational sometimes...but I think for the most part we have good intentions too and we don't like confusing or hurting anyone else either. As with any type, when healthy, I think we can be awesome people that have a lot to offer.


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## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

That's an amazing look inside an ISFJ, and also helps me understand a close relative much better. Thank you!

"The positive of this is that we can get so much happiness out of so little sometimes. It saves us a lot of time, energy, effort and money. We can get joy and satisfaction over things that are very readily accessible."

Being an Ne, I can also get a lot of joy and satisfaction over very little, but the little things need to change in order to have something different to interact with and think about. We don't look as much at saving time, energy, etc., but instead enjoy the expenditure and in return gain more knowledge and experience. Not a better way of dealing with the world, of course, just different.


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

Sarah said:


> Being an Ne, I can also get a lot of joy and satisfaction over very little, but the little things need to change in order to have something different to interact with and think about. We don't look as much at saving time, energy, etc., but instead enjoy the expenditure and in return gain more knowledge and experience. Not a better way of dealing with the world, of course, just different.


Yeah, I've heard similar things about Se...that it's really just about enjoying the experience and not worrying about how much time or energy is used. I guess with Ne it's more about trying out new ideas and theories, and with Se it's more about doing physical activities and getting sensory experiences. 

This is definitely why ISJs and ENPs can have trouble getting along, since what makes us happy is almost the exact opposite. Of course, there is value in both approaches, and these types do have a lot they can learn from each other in order to get balance that helps us make the most out of life.


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## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

teddy564339 said:


> Yeah, I've heard similar things about Se...that it's really just about enjoying the experience and not worrying about how much time or energy is used. I guess with Ne it's more about trying out new ideas and theories, and with Se it's more about doing physical activities and getting sensory experiences.
> 
> This is definitely why ISJs and ENPs can have trouble getting along, since what makes us happy is almost the exact opposite. Of course, there is value in both approaches, and these types do have a lot they can learn from each other in order to get balance that helps us make the most out of life.


That's a good way of phrasing the Se vs. Ne difference. 

It's true that my ISFJ relative and I can frustrate each other, particularly since I more often look at issues with a philosophical, long-term perspective while she is more concerned about helping people on a concrete, immediate basis, plus my need for newness, change and spontaneity vs. her wanting me to appreciate the past and traditions with the same intensity that she does, but she brings a calmness to my life and I introduce her to new ideas, which we both seem to need and appreciate.


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## Nonconsensus (May 19, 2011)

@teddy564339 Thanks for the explanation. It's very comprehensive.

I'm going to rearrange your post for a bit and edit for length. (Rest assured though, I'm not disregarding them.)



teddy564339 said:


> Now, to an NT, who may not as many emotional barriers and *doesn't think as sequentially as an Si dom might*, they see this as the most efficient way to solve the problem and the way they can be the most help.
> 
> I feel invalidated...*it's almost like I feel like they're looking past me and just focusing on the problem.* It's almost like I don't trust their motives...*I don't know why they're doing what they're doing.* Even if their intent is to help, if I can't clearly see that, then I might think they have other reasons...
> 
> But assuming other ISFJs are pretty similar in this, you can see how an NT approach to helping or solving a problem can cause some initial friction and complication.


I think I understand that, and I think the following is relevant to the above. I don't know if your question is rhetorical in nature, but I suppose another perspective would be no harm done.

It's true that when "you" come to me with a problem, I see the "problem", and "you" as a person are not there during the problem solving process, since I'm gathering the facts. I don't treat "you" as the problem, but the problem as something outside of you. The problem identification and analysis is happening in my head, and what come out are only questions and solutions.

The reverse is also true - when someone is not with me in the problem solving process by asking me how the solution works, whether a solution can be used or why I came up with that, I feel as if they're looking past me to look at my emotions, and my thought would be, "Didn't you come to me about the problem? Why are you looking at me instead now?" On top of the original problem, I now have a new problem: Feelings I have somehow and unknowingly offended. It now gets me wondering, "So _what_ is the issue?"



> I've also noticed that for me, a lot of times I kind of have to get all of the emotion out of my system before I can think clearly about something. ... Once I've done that, I can listen more clearly to the advice they're giving and I can focus my attention on logically solving the problem.


This just reminded me of an INFJ friend, who once told me that she doesn't really want to get solutions to a logical problem first, because to her, it feels as if she has a problem on top of another. It didn't make sense to me until now.



> Now, I understand how completely irrational this all is, and how it might even sound insane. And keep in mind, I can only speak for myself, not all ISFJs.


We _all_ are insane. And yes, I recognize you as teddy, not just "an ISFJ".





> ...so I think that when we do ask for help and feel like the other person is simply trying to prove how good they are at fixing things, it just makes us feel horrible. In turn, we're likely to reject their advice because we're afraid of them being right. Even if it fixes the current problem, in the long run it can make us feel even worse.


TBH, I have a little bit of difficulty understanding this. I feel like we're going to head into Fe directions.

Is it possible for you to identify why them being right would make you feel worse? Perhaps the fear, or anticipation, that you would be ridiculed? Or the fear that you can't build a relationship?

Does this apply to everyone, or just people you care about? Or you feel that everyone you meet is a potential relationship, so this "mechanism" (so to speak) just works all the time?

The questions link to what I'm going to say about below:



> Anyway, that aside, I think for an ISFJ, what makes us more likely to build that trust with someone is if we know that the other person is listening to our problem, that they care about us, and that they support us. It helps if we know they don't think any less of us because of our problem and that it's ok for us to ask for help. I think if all of these kinds of things can be established before the problem itself is approached, it makes us much more receptive.





> *I've had discussions with some NTs that don't feel as though they should have to do any of this in order to solve the problem.* I do understand this mentality, and *I agree that ISFJs should make an effort to try to get past some of this irrational behavior.* However, I think if we're talking about a legitimate friendship here, it's best if both sides make an effort to step out of what they're used to in order to make it all work out. *So because you want to help your ISFJ friend, I hope you'll at least consider some of what I've said here.*


I'm with the NTs. I'm not going to waste my time on a bunch of people who can't see past themselves and think they're the centre of the universe - and then put the problem on me, or make _me_ the problem.

But yes, I'm considering everything you said, if only for those I care about. My ISFJ friend hasn't been the same since I first knew him (we used to not get along at all), and in the midst of all his irrational behavior, I can see that he's sincere about it and he's trying. That helps very much. Otherwise, I'd have just cut him off.





> You are exactly right, and I think this is something that frustrates us ISJs very much so, particularly ISFJs. It is a blessing and a curse of dominant Si.
> 
> We don't mind keeping things the same and keeping them simple...some of the happiest moments in my life have come from enjoying things and places that I've been doing since I was a kid. One of my favorite examples is my avatar. While I'm certainly a bit unique among ISFJs in this regard, I amaze myself in how much comfort and joy I get out of my teddy bear that I've had since I was a kid. A cheap, simple bit of cloth and fluff that is worthless to pretty much everyone else on the planet gives me a sense of peace and comfort that many don't understand. While it might be a mark of insanity to others, I view it as one of the easiest and cheapest ways to get happiness.
> 
> ...


It's interesting - I can see the relevance.

It looks profound to me, TBH. A lot of my past memories are just fragments, and they don't generate any kind of happiness or sadness, unless I give them enough meaning. Sometimes I feel like a caravan, not very grounded, and sometimes without a home.

Sometimes I can feel the disappointment in them (my Si-Dom friends/family) - unfortunately, I tend to ruin their Si-moments with my Ni-reaction. (I didn't know what was happening, but I just eventually learnt to deal with it.) In fact, your quote is a close view of how I probably piss them off:



> I'll go back to my teddy bear example, just because it's a fun one for me. :wink: Apart from the obvious potential ridicule, let's say that someone said *"You know, it was probably made by a kid in a sweatshop who was suffering in horrible conditions." (I have no idea about any of the truth of this statement, I'm just using it as an example).* What this person has now done is give me a reason to think negatively about something that is very dear to me, and therefore has taken away from or threatened my happiness. Even if the statement/fact is simply logical, it can do a lot of damage.


^ Not exactly that, but I might say something along the lines of...I think I'll refrain from it so I don't give you negative memories. 



> Once again, you are exactly right. Well, at least for me, and I would imagine ISFJs. ISTJs might be more likely to just shrug off your opinion. But I think an ISFJ would take it to heart and be quite hurt, making it very hard to trust you.


I _think_ ISTJs would be irritated, but to what extent, I don't know.



> It kind of goes back to what I mentioned earlier...we make such strong attachments to things. That's part of what our dom-Si does...we find something we like, and we want to keep it that way. For ISFJs, I think this bond can be very deep and emotional. In some ways it's what we live for, it's what gives us the most satisfaction and happiness in life.
> 
> So when someone makes a comment like that, it may mean very little to that person...it may just be a conversation starter, or a bit of information, or a simple fact. But to an ISFJ, it can be very threatening, because it seeks to remove our happiness from what we know for sure we've got.


It's becoming very clear to me why he was so threatened.



> Of course, ISFJs can get better at this as time goes on. I think one thing I've learned to do over the years is to find a way to separate my own personal world of comfort and happiness from the intellectual, discussion based outside world.


What would that way be? I think Ts would be very interested to read about it. I know I am. (Such a thought process comes naturally to me, so I'm curious how Fs learn to do it.)



> Hopefully my responses here will still be helpful to you, though.


Yes, definitely.





> I think ISJs, much moreso than NTs, tend to focus on their own personal worlds and what's right in front of them. In my own world, I focus on what my teddy bear means to me, not all of the physical facts about what it really is or what the "big picture" of the whole situation can be.


I think we both focus on our personal worlds, just in different realms. I deal with the outside world only because I want to retreat into my world after that, and I don't care to share it.





> I don't know exactly how it plays out in ESJs, but this is definitely true for ISJs. It's really hard for us to deal with change, especially sudden change, and the unknown. This is why Ne and ENPs give us so much trouble and stress sometimes. It's really hard for us to accept people changing, and it's something we worry about. Sometimes we worry too much and are constantly checking in with people. Once again, it goes back to trust...it's hard to trust in someone if we don't know what to expect from them.


Change isn't hard to deal with when I know what it means to me. Internally, I'm working on a lot of things, and sometimes I don't even realize that people feel that I'm changing, since I still feel pretty much the same.





> Well, sometimes there's only so much you can do. A lot of this can come down to personal growth, and that's not something that can be forced on someone, particularly an ISJ...they have to see it in themselves.
> 
> I know for me, I've grown a whole lot these past two years. Learning about the MBTI has helped me so much...I've gotten to understand others and myself really well, and I've been able to work a lot on my weaknesses and improving my confidence. But it takes a while, and it was something I really had to see in myself...it's not something that could be forced on me.
> 
> And that's the way it is with ISFJs, I think...we have a really hard time changing, and usually we have to see a really good reason to change. I've always felt like the best thing others can do is not to force us to change, but instead to just kind of get the ball rolling to get us to think about things in our lives that can be improved. We have a habit of sticking with something, even if it's not optimal, rather than risking losing it for the chance to achieve something better. That's what dominant Si does to us. It takes having good experiences with change to make us realize change can be a good thing.


This is something I'll mull over.




> From what I can tell, not with the tertiary, at least not in a way that I understand. It's hard to say with auxiliary...I think you'd have to ask ESJs. It's probably similar, but also quite different.


Will do.




> As far as what they think about you...sometimes it might just be best to ask them. Like I mentioned earlier, if you ask, and just listen instead of trying to refute or argue (even if what you're saying is completely accurate), you might be able to find out more information. Then you can use that information to work on changing their perceptions. It's kind of hard for me to say more without knowing more about the situation.





> Anyway...as always, all I've said can only truly be attributed to me, not all ISFJs...but I'm willing to bet there's a lot of similarity. I know we can be really hard to understand and I know we can be irrational sometimes...but I think for the most part we have good intentions too and we don't like confusing or hurting anyone else either. As with any type, when healthy, I think we can be awesome people that have a lot to offer.


A lot of what you've said here is very, very useful for me. I had no idea why he was sharing details of what he saw as a kid and sounding so happy about it. I wasn't sure what he was trying to say or what he was doing, but I listened anyway. Now with your explanation, there's a lot to work with.

Thank you for taking the time to explain, teddy.


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## chasingdreams (Jul 16, 2011)

i'm an INFP, and I would care a lot about how others were feeling, but now I no longer do. I've realized that caring too much puts a hefty load on my mind, and I begin to feel crappy. So I no longer care about others feelings, unless it somehow concerns me.


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## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

chasingdreams said:


> i'm an INFP, and I would care a lot about how others were feeling, but now I no longer do. I've realized that caring too much puts a hefty load on my mind, and I begin to feel crappy. So I no longer care about others feelings, unless it somehow concerns me.


That's similar to what I've been wondering about myself in my T/F confusion. I had a difficult, introverted upbringing and when I was in my early 20s I had to learn about ethics after I'd been using people in a negative manner for my own purposes. Until that point, I really hadn't taken into account how my actions would make someone else feel and now I always take it into account. Though I now weigh their need vs. mine, mine still frequently wins but in a more positive, caring manner, at least in my communication with people if not my actions, since I need to be on the go more than most people want me to be. So that sounds as if I'm a T who had to be taught to stop manipulating people. But then I wonder because my upbringing was so stressful, did I start out an F but withdrew into myself in order to survive? There are a few signs that might be true. For me, it's not a simple "what am I doing now," because I'd say I'm ENTP since I haven't had as much opportunity for a while to follow or even sort out my values if I am F. I'm trying to find my native state so I can grow along the lines of who I'm meant to be, and I've been at a T/F standstill for a while.


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

Nonconsensus said:


> It's true that when "you" come to me with a problem, I see the "problem", and "you" as a person are not there during the problem solving process, since I'm gathering the facts. I don't treat "you" as the problem, but the problem as something outside of you. The problem identification and analysis is happening in my head, and what come out are only questions and solutions.
> 
> The reverse is also true - when someone is not with me in the problem solving process by asking me how the solution works, whether a solution can be used or why I came up with that, I feel as if they're looking past me to look at my emotions, and my thought would be, "Didn't you come to me about the problem? Why are you looking at me instead now?" On top of the original problem, I now have a new problem: Feelings I have somehow and unknowingly offended. It now gets me wondering, "So _what_ is the issue?"


I find this interesting because it's very foreign to me. I guess it's because I think I have a hard time solving problems just for the sake of solving problems. It's all very dependent upon the relationship that I have with the person. 

I think what doubly complicates the matter is that there are so many different people to discuss problems with, and how they go about helping is different. If I go to a feeler friend, or maybe an ST, about a problem, they might more naturally go about helping me one way, whereas if I go to an NT, they might go about it another way. So I think it's key to have an understanding of each person before going to them about the problem, because that's the only way of knowing how helpful they're really going to be. 







NonConsensus said:


> TBH, I have a little bit of difficulty understanding this. I feel like we're going to head into Fe directions.
> 
> Is it possible for you to identify why them being right would make you feel worse? Perhaps the fear, or anticipation, that you would be ridiculed? Or the fear that you can't build a relationship?


Well, I think it can be both, or one or the other, depending upon the situation.

I think at the heart of the matter is that it's a confidence/self-esteem issue. For me personally, the whole thing drives into a lot of different emotions and experiences I've had throughout my life. A good bit of it is based upon acceptance and value. 

So I think sometimes it's a fear that the other person will think less of me for being someone who couldn't solve the problem. I don't know if it's necessarily a fear of being ridiculed...it's moreso that it's almost another blow to one's own abilities and confidence in doing things.

In turn, that can lead to a feeling of not being able to build a relationship.


I talked about this in detail in a few other threads, but I don't know if I can find my responses. I talked with other INTJs about this, and the idea was that feelers might sometimes view life as a "competition" of the values of people, whereas INTJs don't at all. 



NonConsensus said:


> Does this apply to everyone, or just people you care about? Or you feel that everyone you meet is a potential relationship, so this "mechanism" (so to speak) just works all the time?


Well, if I'm really close to someone, and I know that they care about me, value me, love me, accept me. etc. no matter what, then it's not an issue at all. This goes back to the trust issue...if I know that regardless of the situation or problem, that the person I'm talking to will still value me no matter what I tell them, then I don't feel threatened at all by it. It's like I feel "safe". I don't have to worry about my confidence because it's already there.


But with those that I don't trust, it can be more of an issue because I don't know what's going on inside of their head. I don't know what they'll think of me as a person. So I would say it's a natural reaction all of the time, unless I already have trust in the person.









NonConsensus said:


> I'm with the NTs. I'm not going to waste my time on a bunch of people who can't see past themselves and think they're the centre of the universe - and then put the problem on me, or make _me_ the problem.
> 
> But yes, I'm considering everything you said, *if only for those I care about*. My ISFJ friend hasn't been the same since I first knew him (we used to not get along at all), and in the midst of all his irrational behavior, I can see that he's sincere about it and he's trying. That helps very much. Otherwise, I'd have just cut him off.


I think that little part in bold is kind of the center of all of this.

As I mentioned above...I don't think that we're really trying to blame someone else, or put the problem on someone else, when we do this (at least not consciously). At least in my case, as I mentioned, it's a matter of confidence and security. 

When this happens to me with someone that I don't know very well, I don't think I'm trying to be self-centered or take anything out on anyone else...it's just a feeling of helplessness and a lack of confidence and I don't know what to do about it. Sometimes pride does take over and it gets ugly, and I think there have been times in my life where I've falsely accused someone else of arrogance out of my own insecurity.


So I agree that it can be a waste of time sometimes for an NT and someone like me to even talk about the problem. But it all really depends on the situation and who the other person is....how they go about saying something will greatly affect how easily I can trust them.


But the key thing that you said is that you care about your friend. To me, that's the key part. Hearing that, and knowing that in itself, already is a huge step in me listening to someone, because it gives me that confidence and security. Having that first part down is a huge step in me having that feeling of safety and trust with them, and that takes away the threat. That greatly helps me in listening to them so the problem can be solved.



My best friend is an INTP. But I've noticed that I usually don't talk to him about problems...even though I do have that trust in him because I've known him so long, I think I usually feel more comfortable bringing up personal problems to friends who are most likely Fs.




NonConsensus said:


> It's interesting - I can see the relevance.
> 
> It looks profound to me, TBH. A lot of my past memories are just fragments, and they don't generate any kind of happiness or sadness, unless I give them enough meaning. Sometimes I feel like a caravan, not very grounded, and sometimes without a home.
> 
> Sometimes I can feel the disappointment in them (my Si-Dom friends/family) - unfortunately, I tend to ruin their Si-moments with my Ni-reaction. (I didn't know what was happening, but I just eventually learnt to deal with it.) In fact, your quote is a close view of how I probably piss them off:


Well, this is part of the reason why I do spend a fair bit of time alone. There are certain things I greatly enjoy that I just haven't found anyone to share with. Thankfully I do have a number of things I can share with different friends or family members, and I have worked on being more open to new experiences over the last few years to find a good balance.





NonConsensus said:


> What would that way be? I think Ts would be very interested to read about it. I know I am. (Such a thought process comes naturally to me, so I'm curious how Fs learn to do it.)


Interestingly enough, this actually boils down to Fe. This link talks about it some:

ISFJ Personal Growth

For me, it's a matter of truly understanding others, and understanding that they're different than me. When I'm in my own personal world, I can do and think whatever works for me, knowing that it won't hurt others.

But when I step outside of that world, I have to use my Fe to understand who others are and how everything affects them. This Fe creates a certain empathy, and that empathy drives me to put aside my own feelings and priorities to see how everyone is affected. In order to do this, a lot of times I have to remove my personal emotion and look at things objectively and logically, because that's the only way to be as fair as possible to everyone.

It's not always easy to do, and I can't live that way 24/7. However, I think for ISFJs, our auxiliary Fe does give us a desire to care for others and to see them happy....we just have to make sure that in the right situations, we use it completely to understand other people and their needs.






NonConsensus said:


> A lot of what you've said here is very, very useful for me. I had no idea why he was sharing details of what he saw as a kid and sounding so happy about it. I wasn't sure what he was trying to say or what he was doing, but I listened anyway. Now with your explanation, there's a lot to work with.


It's nice to know you can recognize it in him too. One interesting thing I read in one MBTI book about ISJs is how we often don't understand how unique we are. Our Si leads us to think that others process or look at life the same way we do, when in fact there is a lot of diversity. That kind of goes back to the Fe link that I mentioned earlier.





The interesting thing about all of this is that it makes me realize how I've gotten to the point in life where I pretty much never share my problems with NTs (or at least people I think are NTs). I guess I've just naturally phased it out. I haven't thought about a lot of this stuff in a long time, and I don't do a lot of this deep self-investigation too often. 


For me personally, my self-confidence has been an issue my entire life, and I've made some really big strides in that area over the last few years. As I mentioned earlier, learning about the MBTI has helped a lot, because it's helped me learn to understand others' true intentions and meanings. Learning about NTs' ways of thinking and their goals helps me to understand that they're (usually) not out to hurt me and aren't trying to be threatening, that it's all in my head. I think a lot of that is down to inferior Ne, and understanding that about myself helps a lot.


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## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

teddy564339 said:


> @Nonconsensus I'll go back to my teddy bear example, just because it's a fun one for me. :wink: Of course, I don't tell the vast majority of people that I still have it, but let's say that I did. Apart from the obvious potential ridicule, let's say that someone said "You know, it was probably made by a kid in a sweatshop who was suffering in horrible conditions." (I have no idea about any of the truth of this statement, I'm just using it as an example). What this person has now done is give me a reason to think negatively about something that is very dear to me, and therefore has taken away from or threatened my happiness. Even if the statement/fact is simply logical, it can do a lot of damage. In turn, this hurt can lead an ISFJ to immediately have a problem with someone just for bringing it up. Again, if that trust isn't there, then the intent of the person isn't known, and that can lead the ISFJ to shutting that person out and holding a grudge against them.


I've been sorting out in the last couple days that I'm likely an Accommodating ENTP. I'm sensitive enough to not make someone feel bad, as in your example, but I don't feel as comfortable around F's as I do around T's since I never know when I'm going to inadvertently step on a value and be shut out from their life, which did happen at one point. An Fi's husband attempted to emotionally attack me in a serious manner and when a couple days later I tried to deal with it using logic, her loyality to her husband, plus other values I had no way of knowing about, caused her to shut me out of her life. At least now I understand better why it ended up the way it did, but how was I to know before it got to the point of no return? I felt completely blindsided, as she likely did with me.

I don't know how to resolve the issues between NTs and F's since we don't seem to easily be able to give what the other person needs. I don't feel entirely comfortable when logic is left behind and F's don't like to leave the human element out, so frequently the only way is to meet in the middle, which sometimes works and other times doesn't as much. But talking about the differences helps a lot since I can now understand better how F's think and feel about things. It might be just your experience, but I can see much of what you've talked about in my F friends and relatives.

Thanks for your interesting post above, which I'd like to comment on but don't have enough time since I'll be running out the door soon.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

@Sarah
I am sorry I didn't get a chance to reply to you earlier - but you seem to have figured things out okay so that's alright.
That post also sort of reminded me of one of a friend's favourite quotations (she is also ENTP, fwiw):
"If you always do what interests you, at least one person is pleased." — Katharine Hepburn


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## heartturnedtoporcelain (Apr 9, 2010)

I think that being a Fi-dom makes it easy to be uncaring. You're so absorbed in yourself and your feelings that a lot of the time it takes _effort_ to reach out and empathize with someone. You definitely do have the capacity to be a very caring individual but you don't necessarily use it.

All the Ts I've know have been incredibly caring when it comes to the people close to them. So I have no doubt about thinkers' emotional capacity when someone is meaningful to them.


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## Linnifae (Nov 13, 2009)

heartturnedtoporcelain said:


> I think that being a Fi-dom makes it easy to be uncaring. You're so absorbed in yourself and your feelings that a lot of the time it takes _effort_ to reach out and empathize with someone. You definitely do have the capacity to be a very caring individual but you don't necessarily use it.
> 
> All the Ts I've know have been incredibly caring when it comes to the people close to them. So I have no doubt about thinkers' emotional capacity when someone is meaningful to them.


Agreed. My ISTP husband's got a decent use of Fe (and I don't ) and he sometimes has to remind me to consider others.... At the same time, when something really gets to the empathy in me, I tend to let it affect me far more than he does. He can put it aside if needed, I have much more of a struggle in trying to do this.


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## possiBri (Jan 4, 2011)

This is something I've been wondering about lately, too. I think the difference may stem from Fe vs. Fi. Now, this isn't to say that Fe means you care about other's feelings and Fi means you don't, but I think they do make a difference. My ESFP (Fi) roommate has the capacity to take others into consideration and does genuinely care about other people's feelings, but I think he takes his own feelings into consideration first. For me, an ENTP (Fe), I tend to take everything into consideration at the same time and will make choices based on the whole, taking everybody into account, and then if I can manipulate something to be a little more in my favor, then awesome.

I don't know if anyone else has experienced something similar, but it's definitely something I've been wondering for a while. Plus, I know there are tons of factors to take into account, and looking at only one of my roommate's cognitive functions and trying to derive an actual trend from that is sorta silly...


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## chasingdreams (Jul 16, 2011)

Sarah said:


> That's similar to what I've been wondering about myself in my T/F confusion. I had a difficult, introverted upbringing and when I was in my early 20s I had to learn about ethics after I'd been using people in a negative manner for my own purposes. Until that point, I really hadn't taken into account how my actions would make someone else feel and now I always take it into account. Though I now weigh their need vs. mine, mine still frequently wins but in a more positive, caring manner, at least in my communication with people if not my actions, since I need to be on the go more than most people want me to be. So that sounds as if I'm a T who had to be taught to stop manipulating people. But then I wonder because my upbringing was so stressful, did I start out an F but withdrew into myself in order to survive? There are a few signs that might be true. For me, it's not a simple "what am I doing now," because I'd say I'm ENTP since I haven't had as much opportunity for a while to follow or even sort out my values if I am F. I'm trying to find my native state so I can grow along the lines of who I'm meant to be, and I've been at a T/F standstill for a while.


I feel you, I sometimes feel like a T, but then I lean more towards F. Through the years I've been forced to be more like a T, but inwardly I'm more of a F. I think society and your surroundings do make you really forget who you are, and its important for us to scrape the fake persona, and find who we are beneath it all. Best of luck in your journey to find out if you're a T or a F, and who knows you might just as well be stuck in the middle, and be both!


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