# Question for intuitive people



## T-Guy (Nov 4, 2008)

Thanks for all your inputs, and I'm glad I'm perceived as one of the less irritating ESTJs out there. I just think it's very difficult for me to work with people who have "N" and "P" preferences because of our differences in the way we think and do things.


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## slightlybatty (Dec 12, 2008)

you bother me so greatly you estjs... my life is such a challenge around you.
i dont like celebrating, order, rules, consistant anything, trandition, clubs.... just about everything... its hard.


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## Dr. Metallic (Nov 15, 2008)

My father's an ESTJ, so I have everything good and everything bad to say about them. (Wait, my brother is one too).

My father has a level of self-awareness that I wish the rest of the world had. He seems to have an ability to observe, plan, execute, and finish a project/task with accuracy to detail and time; while, of course, making sure it's done better than anyone else can do it.

If things don't go the way he originally desired, he'll piss and moan and make the lives of everyone around him a living hell.

ESTJs are volatile, like a load of nitroglycerin being agitated in a concrete truck. I usually am able to diffuse the ESTJ.

ESTJs and INTJs view the world exactly opposite, finding the same end through different means.

The ESTJ tends to wear his emotions on his sleeve. I'm a bit uncomfortable with that.

If you want to know anything else about ESTJs, let me know :happy:


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## T-Guy (Nov 4, 2008)

JoeMetallic said:


> My father's an ESTJ, so I have everything good and everything bad to say about them. (Wait, my brother is one too).
> 
> My father has a level of self-awareness that I wish the rest of the world had. He seems to have an ability to observe, plan, execute, and finish a project/task with accuracy to detail and time; while, of course, making sure it's done better than anyone else can do it.
> 
> ...


Actually, one of my good buddies is an INTJ and we were talking about household responsibilities last night. Here's a question for you: do you think it's your responsibility to Enforce the house rules and everyone's responsibilities?


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## Nightriser (Nov 8, 2008)

JoeMetallic said:


> My father has a level of self-awareness that I wish the rest of the world had. He seems to have an ability to observe, plan, execute, and finish a project/task with accuracy to detail and time; while, of course, making sure it's done better than anyone else can do it.


Very well-said. 



> If things don't go the way he originally desired, he'll piss and moan and make the lives of everyone around him a living hell.
> 
> The ESTJ tends to wear his emotions on his sleeve. I'm a bit uncomfortable with that.
> 
> If you want to know anything else about ESTJs, let me know :happy:


I was wondering about that. The ESTJ I know has an amazing temper when she gets angry. And no amount of reason seems to convince her of any view but her own, so I was wondering how she could be a T. However, she also couldn't be an F because she says things, regardless of whether they will hurt someone's feelings, and I know she and I aren't _complete_ opposites.


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## T-Guy (Nov 4, 2008)

I try hard to keep my cool even though I get angry very easily. I most often take my anger out on my family members, and anger comes out almost every time when I'm drunk...bad.


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## Dr. Metallic (Nov 15, 2008)

T-Guy said:


> Actually, one of my good buddies is an INTJ and we were talking about household responsibilities last night. Here's a question for you: do you think it's your responsibility to Enforce the house rules and everyone's responsibilities?


Enforcing household rules is the responsibility of whomever is the head-of-house. Let me see if I can effectively answer your question...

I would think that I make a good leader. I can think a project through to the end and assign responsibilities to members of the group. Leadership, however, is not something I seek out--whenever I have it, it's been set in my lap. I don't mind, because I'm comfortable with responsibility.

If there is someone who could lead better than I could, I would not have issues with following his leadership. On one condition: he must treat his subordinates properly and respectfully.

To answer your question succinctly: It's not my responsibility to enforce the house rules and responsibilities (In my particular situation), but I would gladly and effectively take the reigns if necessary.


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## Dr. Metallic (Nov 15, 2008)

Sifr said:


> I was wondering about that. The ESTJ I know has an amazing temper when she gets angry. And no amount of reason seems to convince her of any view but her own, so I was wondering how she could be a T. However, she also couldn't be an F because she says things, regardless of whether they will hurt someone's feelings, and I know she and I aren't _complete_ opposites.


Quite right, Sifr *sneers at name-change :tongue: *
In my experience, the ESTJ thrives on reason, but anger brings on a tunnel-vision of sorts. No amount of reason, in any technique will work.

I'll tell you a secret about the ESTJ. It sounds like yours, like mine, is family.
If you immediately own and admit mistake, the ESTJ will cool down. (You can almost hear the hot iron on a block of ice)

e.g.

ESTJ: *angry* [why would you do that?]
INTJ: I f###ed up. Sorry. What should we do now?


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## snail (Oct 13, 2008)

I can't bear to be around angry sorts. It causes me to break down and cry or have panic attacks. ESTJs always get angry at me for being an INFP and doing INFP things. I try to be as harmless as possible to avoid conflict, but they won't let me avoid it. They don't value my meekness, and tend to see it as something I am doing wrong. The more I show signs of submission to avoid criticism, the harder they criticize me, not only for the INFP things I was originally doing, but for my INFP way of reacting to their hostility about it. Everything implodes very quickly around them, and it is safest to just avoid them entirely when it is possible. When it isn't possible, I am inevitably miserable in their presence.


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## T-Guy (Nov 4, 2008)

JoeMetallic said:


> To answer your question succinctly: It's not my responsibility to enforce the house rules and responsibilities (In my particular situation), but I would gladly and effectively take the reigns if necessary.


Hmm...that's exactly what my buddy said. My buddy is an effective leader, I'd say, and I thought he was an ESTJ until he told me he was an INTJ.


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## T-Guy (Nov 4, 2008)

snail said:


> I can't bear to be around angry sorts. It causes me to break down and cry or have panic attacks. ESTJs always get angry at me for being an INFP and doing INFP things. I try to be as harmless as possible to avoid conflict, but they won't let me avoid it. They don't value my meekness, and tend to see it as something I am doing wrong. The more I show signs of submission to avoid criticism, the harder they criticize me, not only for the INFP things I was originally doing, but for my INFP way of reacting to their hostility about it. Everything implodes very quickly around them, and it is safest to just avoid them entirely when it is possible. When it isn't possible, I am inevitably miserable in their presence.


Just one advice. I don't know about other ESTJs, but if you're submissive or even show signs of submission I will look down on you and try to control you even more. So, it's probably better if you come off strong to avoid this.


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## NephilimAzrael (Oct 26, 2008)

T-Guy, I could tell you this though. With a lifetime of experience with ESTJs, if you push an introvert too much, and they do not react, how fast will you get angry?

I have taken my mother out of her mind in a heartbeat by simply ignoring her demands. Any sign of submission can easily cause an ESTJ to want to press down harder, but more often than not, by simply ignoring you can cause you to trip up. I doubt snail would push you when your whole attack becomes imbalanced, or even any submissive person. Yet I have noticed that ESTJs that I have met attempt to force their views forward when they get agitated. Which as a point of advice, just bide the time a matter of minutes more and you can assure yourself the effect will help the cause.

So next time (as an ESTJ) you see that weak spot you wish to exploit, just remember, precision can be rather more effective than force. If you combine a force of determination with a precise application of control, what you want to get done can be not only easier, but less likely to have an ESTJ come off as a dick.


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## Nightriser (Nov 8, 2008)

T-Guy said:


> Just one advice. I don't know about other ESTJs, but if you're submissive or even show signs of submission I will look down on you and try to control you even more. So, it's probably better if you come off strong to avoid this.


That explains a lot. Actually, that might explain most of the problems I have with the ESTJ. So if I just stand up, will the ESTJ be enraged or respectful?


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## Shai Gar (Jan 4, 2009)

What is submission?


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## NephilimAzrael (Oct 26, 2008)

Shai Gar said:


> What is submission?


Give the man a medal, or a dictionary. Or both.


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## Shai Gar (Jan 4, 2009)

Give me a medal SHAPED like a dictionary!


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## T-Guy (Nov 4, 2008)

NephilimAzrael said:


> T-Guy, I could tell you this though. With a lifetime of experience with ESTJs, if you push an introvert too much, and they do not react, how fast will you get angry?
> 
> I have taken my mother out of her mind in a heartbeat by simply ignoring her demands. Any sign of submission can easily cause an ESTJ to want to press down harder, but more often than not, by simply ignoring you can cause you to trip up. I doubt snail would push you when your whole attack becomes imbalanced, or even any submissive person. Yet I have noticed that ESTJs that I have met attempt to force their views forward when they get agitated. Which as a point of advice, just bide the time a matter of minutes more and you can assure yourself the effect will help the cause.
> 
> So next time (as an ESTJ) you see that weak spot you wish to exploit, just remember, precision can be rather more effective than force. If you combine a force of determination with a precise application of control, what you want to get done can be not only easier, but less likely to have an ESTJ come off as a dick.


Thanks for the advice Neph, I didn't realize that in an informal setting a person could just ignore me, which will make me go insane. Just to clarify though, what is a good example of a force of determination with a precise application of control that you speak of?

And to answer Sifr's question, an ESTJ should first be kind of pissed off by the fact that you stood up to him/her, but soon realize you're not an easy person to mess around with and back off a bit.


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## NephilimAzrael (Oct 26, 2008)

T-Guy said:


> Just to clarify though, what is a good example of a force of determination with a precise application of control that you speak of?


Now try and use your imagination.
When you want something assuredly, that is your determination. Should it be a particularily important object, your determination will carry more force. So that is the force of determination.

In opposition to pursuing the object by mere force of determination (an imposing will), you can take a moment to consider precisely the merits and worth of that object. What exactly is so important to begin with and why you need to obtain it. If all still check out when you have taken a few minutes to consider every little detail, then clearly and calmly assume that it is needed. If the person that seems to be an obstacle to you. Try considering them as a person of merits and uses also. Be precise in what you wish to obtain and be clear in granting the other person the dignity to be precise in not assisting you. They have no obligation to assist you attaining your goals. So by force of determination, use your determination to drive you. By precision of your control, be sure you can perform by yourself without the need for others to conform.

If this does not make sense, please do ask specific questions as to the process.


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## moon (Nov 29, 2008)

I'm dating an ESTJ. Today is our sixth year together mark.


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## Shai Gar (Jan 4, 2009)

Won't let you leave huh?


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