# Do you think mental illness exists?



## Chiaroscuro (Jul 10, 2012)

Yes. A lot of mental illnesses are caused my chemical imbalances and differences in brain chemistry. The only questionable factor is whether to label it all as illness. Some of the mental illness are not really that bad. People are fully functional and capable of having massive IQs with some mental illness.

The criteria for mental illness is having one or more factors in the mind that have a debilitating effect on someone's life. The illnesses are not really positively real in themselves, they are all labels for a common collection of symptoms. For example, a person with ADHD is likely to have "depression". But not vice versa, much less likely. 

The new diagnostics allow for personality disorders... Which are basically regular personality traits, not abnormal in any way, taken to an extreme that the persons life and well being is severely compromised. Again, these are very controversial. One is very real, however- sociopathy and psychopathy is caused by diminished frontal love activity. Those people do not have any concern for the consequences of their actions as a result. They are fully capable and rational. Sort of like a narcissistic personality with the apathy of a depressed person.


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## skgarcia (Aug 1, 2014)

Chiaroscuro said:


> Yes. A lot of mental illnesses are caused my chemical imbalances and differences in brain chemistry. The only questionable factor is whether to label it all as illness. Some of the mental illness are not really that bad. People are fully functional and capable of having massive IQs with some mental illness.
> 
> The criteria for mental illness is having one or more factors in the mind that have a debilitating effect on someone's life. The illnesses are not really positively real in themselves, they are all labels for a common collection of symptoms. For example, a person with ADHD is likely to have "depression". But not vice versa, much less likely.
> 
> The new diagnostics allow for personality disorders... Which are basically regular personality traits, not abnormal in any way, taken to an extreme that the persons life and well being is severely compromised. Again, these are very controversial. One is very real, however- sociopathy and psychopathy is caused by diminished frontal love activity. Those people do not have any concern for the consequences of their actions as a result. They are fully capable and rational. Sort of like a narcissistic personality with the apathy of a depressed person.


Semantics! Like I said, I don't think there are any mental illnesses because none of us are born mentally ill, our society warps our minds into submission after suffering emotional invalidation or abuse. Since I don't "believe" in them in that way, I also greatly dislike their labels. Labeling someone as defective, different, or having anything about them singling them out from others, is wrong and a method of the matrix to distract society away from the disease by singling out those who display symptoms. 

I strongly believe dyslexia, ADD, and ADHD, for example, are profound _gifts _ mutilated by indoctrinated psychology to make gifted or creative children feel broken from the very beginning. Why? Because society doesn't want these children to be successful--they're dangerous to the system. 

Sociopathy and psychopathy are results of severe parental abuse in childhood. No child is born incapable or cognitively inept at feeling empathy.


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## Chiaroscuro (Jul 10, 2012)

skgarcia said:


> Semantics! Like I said, I don't think there are any mental illnesses because none of us are born mentally ill, our society warps our minds into submission after suffering emotional invalidation or abuse. Since I don't "believe" in them in that way, I also greatly dislike their labels. Labeling someone as defective, different, or having anything about them singling them out from others, is wrong and a method of the matrix to distract society away from the disease by singling out those who display symptoms.
> 
> I strongly believe dyslexia, ADD, and ADHD, for example, are profound _gifts _ mutilated by indoctrinated psychology to make gifted or creative children feel broken from the very beginning. Why? Because society doesn't want these children to be successful--they're dangerous to the system.
> 
> Sociopathy and psychopathy are results of severe parental abuse in childhood. No child is born incapable or cognitively inept at feeling empathy.


That's wrong on so many levels. People are born autistics, the only difference between sociopath and psychopath is that psychopaths are born that way. It's genetics. People are born with Down syndrome. People are born with cognitive deficits all the time. Fetal alcohol syndrome, a big cause of mental illness. What you wrote is moreso semantics than mine. For example, you may try to argue that these conditions are not mental illnesses but they are "differences". Mental deficiency at birth is not a simple "difference". If it was that easy, the people suffering from these chronic deficits would not have special needs. They'd simply be different and functional. 
Dyslexia is definitely not considered a gift by the people who suffer from it. Maybe someone with ADD could like their personality trait. But no, overall that's wrong. Depression is highly correlated with ADD/ADHD


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## skgarcia (Aug 1, 2014)

Chiaroscuro said:


> That's wrong on so many levels. People are born autistics, the only difference between sociopath and psychopath is that psychopaths are born that way. It's genetics. People are born with Down syndrome. People are born with cognitive deficits all the time. Fetal alcohol syndrome, a big cause of mental illness. What you wrote is moreso semantics than mine. For example, you may try to argue that these conditions are not mental illnesses but they are "differences". Mental deficiency at birth is not a simple "difference". If it was that easy, the people suffering from these chronic deficits would not have special needs. They'd simply be different and functional.
> Dyslexia is definitely not considered a gift by the people who suffer from it. Maybe someone with ADD could like their personality trait. But no, overall that's wrong. Depression is highly correlated with ADD/ADHD



Autism is another disorder that's actually a gift. Can you link me a research study stating psychopaths are genetically induced? I've always been under the impression both types are primarily environmentally attributed. Fetal alcohol syndrome is not even in the same class of "disorders" we are discussing now because the parent usurped the child's chance at balanced brain chemistry before it was ever born.

I did say "barring mental retardation or chromosomal issues" because I agree mental deficiency is not a mere difference. However we were discussing the human brain and the chemical affect society has it in regards to depression. Logically, any person not born adequately equipped with a system that runs properly I'm not talking about.

Depression is highly correlated with ADD and ADHD because those children are told they're annoying, loud, disruptive, and medicated for simply being themselves. Read deeper into correlations and data.


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## Chiaroscuro (Jul 10, 2012)

skgarcia said:


> Autism is another disorder that's actually a gift. Can you link me a research study stating psychopaths are genetically induced? I've always been under the impression both types are primarily environmentally attributed. Fetal alcohol syndrome is not even in the same class of "disorders" we are discussing now because the parent usurped the child's chance at balanced brain chemistry before it was ever born.
> 
> I did say "barring mental retardation or chromosomal issues" because I agree mental deficiency is not a mere difference. However we were discussing the human brain and the chemical affect society has it in regards to depression. Logically, any person not born adequately equipped with a system that runs properly I'm not talking about.
> 
> Depression is highly correlated with ADD and ADHD because those children are told they're annoying, loud, disruptive, and medicated for simply being themselves. Read deeper into correlations and data.


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127888976

^ how a scientist discovered psychopathy is genetic

Fetal alcohol syndrome is a major CAUSE of mental illness. That's what I said. Pretty relevant to the discussion. 
I don't follow your reasoning here. People with Bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, or even Severe OCD? You don't consider these illnesses?
What about suicidally depressed people? 

Of corse these people are different. We call it an illness because they are debilitating mental complications to someone's life. Speculating on whether or not to call it an illness is the real semantic argument.


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## JTHearts (Aug 6, 2013)

@skgarcia

Are you one of those people who hates medication? I would probably be dead if it weren't for anti-depressants, but a lot of people would probably tell me I deserve to be dead if I couldn't "handle it on my own"


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## skgarcia (Aug 1, 2014)

Chiaroscuro said:


> A Neuroscientist Uncovers A Dark Secret : NPR
> 
> ^ how a scientist discovered psychopathy is genetic
> 
> ...


Thanks for link, good read.

I personally don't place FAS sufferers into the same "category" we're discussing on this thread because their genetics didn't cause them their problems, their parents did. That's another way a warped society can damage a child's mind before they're ever born--through their mother. I have no doubt they suffer and go through sadness and despair, but why do they? They're usually born into less than ideal conditions, raised with little guidance, and are struggling with mental handicaps on top of it all. Because modern Americans view people on drugs and in poverty as inferior or defective somehow, FAS individuals will never get the appropriate help they need in order to be happy or function properly. Without society's anti-leper constructs denying them normalcy and a place to live and work, they probably wouldn't be much different on the happiness scale than you and I. 

This point continues into the rest of your questions. Take your fixations off the individuals with these labels, and instead flip your vision to the masses of people pointing them out as broken or suffering. Yes, they are suffering. Yes, they are hurting. However, they're hurting, isolated, and damaged because society has failed them in every sense. Without society as a whole to determine what is even "normal" we wouldn't know what any of these are! If millions and millions of people are clinging to life via SSRIs, how can you really call depression a true disease of mankind? Surely with "diagnoses" numbers that high, we as a physical body/brain are not the common denominator? Our minds are not the ones who are sick, the collective consciousness is. Once the authoritarian type thinking system we have going on in America lightens up more and people regain more personal freedom to simply be themselves without fear of judgment, depression will scale back considerably.

Jung himself has written papers stating schizophrenia is actually a good thing. Schizophrenia is a mental healing mechanism set into action by our egos to "shock" us further towards self actualization by systematically attacking and destroying the current reality. Jung went on to say these individuals would probably recover, and not only recover but recover an even more mentally healthy person, if they weren't hassled, labeled, medicated, and institutionalized by family, friends, and law enforcement. Once people start labeling themselves, like with BPD and Antisocial Disorder, they cling to these ideals instead of going through their insecurities in order to get over it and move on healthier and happier. 

Bipolar is the same way--caused by trauma, triggered by trauma. There's a connection between creativity and schizophrenia, and I don't think they're even a "bad" constellation of "disorders." They're only bad and cause heartache for someone if another group of people singles them out and notifies them they're not normal. I just don't believe anyone born with a healthy, fully functioning brain can have mental illnesses, they're just empty-as-air terms 50-60's psychologists made up to victimize people who were different.


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## skgarcia (Aug 1, 2014)

john.thomas said:


> @skgarcia
> 
> Are you one of those people who hates medication? I would probably be dead if it weren't for anti-depressants, but a lot of people would probably tell me I deserve to be dead if I couldn't "handle it on my own"


I would never tell someone that. Whoever told you that has their own mental issues and you should scoff at them for trying to make a comment on your mental health.

However, personally I would never take an SSRI and I don't think they do anything more for you than a placebo pill would. Your mind is a powerful thing, and if you think that's what's keeping you clinging to life, it actually is. It is all up to you though, an SSRI doesn't have to be that source of comfort. Your brain works just fine; society has beaten and bashed you into what you feel is only a shadow of yourself and then told you _your_ chemical balances are screwed. You wouldn't be depressed right now if other people hadn't emotionally or physically oppressed your sense of self in the past, it's that simple. _You_ are the symptom of society's illness, not someone who is showing symptoms of an illness.

Then they have the nerve to make even more money off you through health insurance and medication costs. When it comes to mental healthcare, it's all a gigantic, rotating hamster wheel spewing money.


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## Riptide (Feb 13, 2014)

Depends on the particular (mental) illness you have in mind. It hasn't even got to do with behaviours, one is able to act normal with mental illness. I would say the sense of losing control and the effect in daily life are the criteria here.

Take Homosexuality as an example, it is definitely not seen as mental illness these days (unless you are an religious extremist) nor a personality trait. Schizophrenia, on the other hand, is a mental illness not a personality trait. Schizophrenia affects your daily life in a negative way that you have no voluntary control over it. You suffer hallucination and/or delusion for a lengthy period and it's unlikely gonna get better by itself. Another example is depression, it is difficult to spot depression suffers, it is not the same as melancholy the personality trait, they can act happily and tell funny jokes but the feelings, the thoughts are not going anywhere no matters what they do; a melancholic person can still appreciate a comedy, a nice painting but for a depression suffers feel nothing but empty feeling, or negative thought when they see the same things, the comedy reminds how sad they are, the painting reminds them what's the point, nothing to look forward.


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## spylass (Jan 25, 2014)

In response to all the people who think mental illness might not exist because some behaviors are considered normal and some aren't: mental illnesses are not only about behavior, they're about your mental experiences and daily functioning. 

The definition from the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill: _A mental illness is a medical condition that disrupts a person's thinking, feeling, mood, ability to relate to others and daily functioning.
_
Mental illness can distorts people's minds and perceptions so much that they can't take care of themselves, can't focus on anything, can't function in the ways that a typical, mentally healthy person would. 

We shouldn't be talking about it like "well so what if a a person hallucinates, maybe that's their rare personality trait" and should think "some people have hallucinations that make it so difficult to live that they lose their jobs, forget to feed themselves, became paranoid of everyone and hear voices that tell them to harm themselves or harm others." This isn't a personality! This is illness affecting your brain and sucking away at your mind!


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## Tezcatlipoca (Jun 6, 2014)

Much of what is considered normal is mentally ill.


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## Amine (Feb 23, 2014)

OP: yes, it obviously exists. People are deluded or non-functional for various reasons. That's what this is all about. If you can't function and you are seeing things no one else sees, you've clearly got a mental condition.


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## Watch Key Phone (Mar 29, 2013)

skgarcia said:


> I would never tell someone that. Whoever told you that has their own mental issues and you should scoff at them for trying to make a comment on your mental health.
> 
> However, personally I would never take an SSRI and I don't think they do anything more for you than a placebo pill would. Your mind is a powerful thing, and if you think that's what's keeping you clinging to life, it actually is. It is all up to you though, an SSRI doesn't have to be that source of comfort. Your brain works just fine; society has beaten and bashed you into what you feel is only a shadow of yourself and then told you _your_ chemical balances are screwed. You wouldn't be depressed right now if other people hadn't emotionally or physically oppressed your sense of self in the past, it's that simple. _You_ are the symptom of society's illness, not someone who is showing symptoms of an illness.
> 
> Then they have the nerve to make even more money off you through health insurance and medication costs. When it comes to mental healthcare, it's all a gigantic, rotating hamster wheel spewing money.


What does the cause of the illness have to do with whether it exists or not? Or with how it should be treated?

You think my depression was caused by society; I think I was genetically predisposed. There's no real way of knowing so what does it matter?


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## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

Chiaroscuro said:


> Yes. A lot of mental illnesses *are caused my chemical imbalances and differences in brain chemistry*. The only questionable factor is whether to label it all as illness. Some of the mental illness are not really that bad. People are fully functional and capable of having massive IQs with some mental illness.


Just a friendly pointer:

This isn't true. Only a few are: schizophrenia and parkinsons, etc, are said to have a completely chemical basis.

The rest haven't been proven yet, _however_ it has been said that mental illness are _related_ to differences in brain chemistry and chemical imbalances.


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## grassafue (Mar 20, 2014)

This has been a source of great frustration for me especially towards the treatment of "mentally ill" in psychiatry. The term mental disorder is very degrading, it implies that one's behavior or beliefs are out of order, which is a very soviet, nazi idealogy. I believe that the negative symptoms (and by negative I mean those that cause distress) of "mental disorders" are a result of stigmatization of abnormal behavior and an attempt to make society as a whole abide by common principles. This sounds like a stretch, but I'll explain. The symptoms of depression are undeniable, I can attest to this. But it's not an illness. Being depressed is not a sign of "sickness" but rather a misunderstanding of yourself. Symptoms appear when the pressures to conform to societal standards suppress your own intuitions and desires to self actualize. So then, doctors perscribe ssri's, which boost seratonin levels so that you can accept the person you are trying to be. And surprisngly, it works for alot of people. But not someone who endures true existential depression and seeks to find deeper meaning beyond the bullshit that is sprayed by the media and celebrities. I took an SSRI, effexor for 3 months because the first 3 weeks I took it, it was awesome! I was stoked to go to my shitty job and I couldn't wait to go catch up with all my friends who never really cared about me. But eventually i realized this euphoria was as fake as a wedding cake and now I'm getting off of them, and let me tell you the withdrawals are worse than almost any narcotic you find yourself hooked to. But, that's somewhat beside the point. Depression isn't an illness, it is state of being that calls for soul searching, and a quest for truth, and there is a light at the end of every single tunnel.

Another "mental illness" that is blindly misunderstood as a sickness is schizophrenia. (WHAT...) Yeah, schizophrenics aren't sick, in fact, I'd consider their gifts a blessing. There is no denying that the people labeled as schizophrenic are different from the majority, but like everything else in this society, it's considered a flaw in need of fixing. And this is what turns the hallucinations and delusions from sweet to sour. From the many schizophrenics I've talked to, I can't help but notice that they are spiritually enlightened beings. Their intuition is stronger than that of any other type of person I know. And i completely, 100% blame modern psychiatry and pharmaceutical companies for putting these people through the hell they experience. They are abstract beings, they cannot learn the ways of the "sane" person in all their dull routines, office jobs, church going, do it all over again lives. Notice that the negative symptoms of schizophrenics are "laziness, lack of motivation, poor cognitive skills, sleepiness" Can we really blame them? Is it really that sane to get jazzed up about going to a job where you earn 2 percent of what the company's owner receives? They see through the bullshit, and their abstract mind is relief from the "real" world. They have poor communication skills, they are almost hardwired to be somewhat of loners, in solitude focusing on their writing, music, and art. But of course that isn't "productive" so they are obviously ill. Right.

Bipolar disorders are almost a mix of schizophrenia and depression. Obviously they experience the lack of self esteem and self actualization for periods at a time, but they also have the rush of intuition and self fulfillment that schizophrenics experience. And it is all in full swing at one time, and it's almost too much to handle. And often it becomes that. But why do they experience this rush of euphoria? It's not because they are ill. Early in life, when they try to express themselves, they are often denied and told to settle down, straighten up, act normal, quit believing those things. This sticks with them, but deep inside that strong, outgoing personality exists. I'd venture to say that the majority of bipolar people are extroverts. They are brilliant organizers and socializers, and make for superb leaders with their drive, determintation and will. But if these inhibitions are suppressed at an early enough age, they will think of themselves as failures for not being the person they thought they were. in the deepest of their depression they remember that feeling of self actualization, and it all rushes in at once. They are literally manic and can't control all their natural desires. It's not an illness, it's a result of judgement and misunderstanding directed their way. I'm not saying it's all other people's faults, but the manic person is not completely to blame, since so many people who could be considered bipolar rise to high positions with this innate drive to succeed and organize people efficiently. 

Antisocial and narcissistic disorders. This can be difficult to defend, since such clear evidence can be made that they are not of sound mind to be active in society. But, I have noticed that their is a rift between themselves and other people. They view others as objects that exist to be manipulated and exploited with the sole purpose of bettering themselves. And it seems like an illness. But I see it more as an immaturity and misunderstanding. The human species possesses a collective consciousness which gives us all a sense of empathy for other conscious beings. We are intolerant of murder because it is our own kind dying, almost like we are watching ourselves being killed. It's not because someone told us that murder is bad. Narcissists and Antisocials don't seem to understand this interconnectedness, but I truly believe that if this were explained to them by a spiritual teacher, someone in tune with energy and frequencies, they could develop a sense of understanding. I really do. It's not an illness. It's a misunderstanding of their own nature in the same way that a fundamentalist may not accept another religion. There's nothing wrong with that person. That person just doesn't understand that an individual opinion does not constitute a universal truth.

Anxiety. This one is a little easier, but unfortunately, it can be quickly fixed with a pill. Anxiety is just worried anticipation of the infinite possibilities of scenarios. It's an illogical, slippery slope way of thinking, that can be fixed with one simple discovery: The past doesn't exist, the future doesn't exist. All that ever is and ever will be until the end of the universe is the present moment. It is the continuous present moment. There is no need to worry about an imaginary universe such as the future or the past because it distracts you from the glory of life that is... the present moment. If you have your full attention in the present moment, you will be flooded with suggestions from your gut instinct as to how to behave, act, and handle a situation. It is the way of life. It's a continuous cycle that neither stops nor accelerates. This goes for pretty much any type of anxiety. It's a fear of a non existent situation, it's paranoia.

I just refuse to believe mental differences are illnesses. Because if everyone accept the differences in others and was oblivious to any desire to judge and label, then we would accept people as they are. Unfortunately modern society does not follow this ideal. Labels actually provide comfort to many. Quick answers, instant gratification have become rewards. Left brains dominate a society that is becoming increasingly right brain. Psychiatrist believe anything that is observed through the senses which does not accord with the majority is a sign of illness and needs reformation. This is so not true since our minds all perceive on a subjective level, and the world is a ball of energy revolving around a sun revolving around a black hole with billions of other suns. There is neither good nor bad. Right nor wrong. All that exists are the infinite activities promoting life and the few, but convincing, behaviors that result in death. We grow or we die. We kill or we thrive together. 

We live in fear of death or we live in love of life. 

PS sorry i turned this into a call for peace, it was just on my mind. Many blessings


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## Logical Ambivert Feeler (Aug 17, 2011)

donkeybals said:


> I think a lot or many people with "mental illness" are misdignosed. It is easy to just write down anything about that person, when they just are struggling with life issues, and that is the best way to cope.
> 
> I've seen people with "mental illness" reactions towards things in life or death situations. Miraculously during that moment they are often "cured". A lot of time the way they are acting serves as some type of benefit towards that person that society does not like.
> 
> ...


Please go and visit a psychiatric hospital and tell me that depression is not a mental illness. Mental illness is classified when these personality traits/ways of thinking/tendencies etc affect day to day life and functioning. Happiness doesn't make people want to kill themselves or stop doing things. Depression does.


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## Squirrel (Jun 14, 2014)

Yes. Mental illnesses/disorders DO exist for example bipolar and schizophrenia, etc...not something like anorexia. Although anorexia/eating disorders are a psychological problem, it's not something one is born with like bipolar. I hate when people put them on the same line as those who truly have mental disorders. There's a huge difference and eating disorders for example, can be dealt with and technically go away. Whereas, someone with bipolar, will always have bipolar and struggle with it their entire lives. Medication does not fix anything, it just helps manage the disorder along with therapy/psychiatry.


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## Athesis (Sep 2, 2012)

Is the earth round? do humans exist?
I'm living with mental illness


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## donkeybals (Jan 13, 2011)

Logical Ambivert Feeler said:


> Please go and visit a psychiatric hospital and tell me that depression is not a mental illness. Mental illness is classified when these personality traits/ways of thinking/tendencies etc affect day to day life and functioning. Happiness doesn't make people want to kill themselves or stop doing things. Depression does.


Of course, your opinion has more weight than I does. Considering that you said so.


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## Logical Ambivert Feeler (Aug 17, 2011)

donkeybals said:


> Of course, your opinion has more weight than I does. Considering that you said so.


Are you seriously denying depression is a mental illness? 
Btw extreme happiness is also a mental illness...its called mania


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## Athesis (Sep 2, 2012)

donkeybals said:


> I think a lot or many people with "mental illness" are misdignosed. It is easy to just write down anything about that person, when they just are struggling with life issues, and that is the best way to cope.
> 
> I've seen people with "mental illness" reactions towards things in life or death situations. Miraculously during that moment they are often "cured". A lot of time the way they are acting serves as some type of benefit towards that person that society does not like.
> 
> ...


Do you know what Depression is? Because you can be severely depressed without being sad at all. It is not defined as being sad all the time. Do you know what an illness is? Do you know how it is defined? Do you think depression and the symptoms of depression deviate away from how an illness is defined?


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## Logical Ambivert Feeler (Aug 17, 2011)

grassafue said:


> This has been a source of great frustration for me especially towards the treatment of "mentally ill" in psychiatry. The term mental disorder is very degrading, it implies that one's behavior or beliefs are out of order, which is a very soviet, nazi idealogy. I believe that the negative symptoms (and by negative I mean those that cause distress) of "mental disorders" are a result of stigmatization of abnormal behavior and an attempt to make society as a whole abide by common principles. This sounds like a stretch, but I'll explain. The symptoms of depression are undeniable, I can attest to this. But it's not an illness. Being depressed is not a sign of "sickness" but rather a misunderstanding of yourself. Symptoms appear when the pressures to conform to societal standards suppress your own intuitions and desires to self actualize. So then, doctors perscribe ssri's, which boost seratonin levels so that you can accept the person you are trying to be. And surprisngly, it works for alot of people. But not someone who endures true existential depression and seeks to find deeper meaning beyond the bullshit that is sprayed by the media and celebrities. I took an SSRI, effexor for 3 months because the first 3 weeks I took it, it was awesome! I was stoked to go to my shitty job and I couldn't wait to go catch up with all my friends who never really cared about me. But eventually i realized this euphoria was as fake as a wedding cake and now I'm getting off of them, and let me tell you the withdrawals are worse than almost any narcotic you find yourself hooked to. But, that's somewhat beside the point. Depression isn't an illness, it is state of being that calls for soul searching, and a quest for truth, and there is a light at the end of every single tunnel.
> 
> Another "mental illness" that is blindly misunderstood as a sickness is schizophrenia. (WHAT...) Yeah, schizophrenics aren't sick, in fact, I'd consider their gifts a blessing. There is no denying that the people labeled as schizophrenic are different from the majority, but like everything else in this society, it's considered a flaw in need of fixing. And this is what turns the hallucinations and delusions from sweet to sour. From the many schizophrenics I've talked to, I can't help but notice that they are spiritually enlightened beings. Their intuition is stronger than that of any other type of person I know. And i completely, 100% blame modern psychiatry and pharmaceutical companies for putting these people through the hell they experience. They are abstract beings, they cannot learn the ways of the "sane" person in all their dull routines, office jobs, church going, do it all over again lives. Notice that the negative symptoms of schizophrenics are "laziness, lack of motivation, poor cognitive skills, sleepiness" Can we really blame them? Is it really that sane to get jazzed up about going to a job where you earn 2 percent of what the company's owner receives? They see through the bullshit, and their abstract mind is relief from the "real" world. They have poor communication skills, they are almost hardwired to be somewhat of loners, in solitude focusing on their writing, music, and art. But of course that isn't "productive" so they are obviously ill. Right.
> 
> ...



I disagree when you say these behaviours/feelings/thought processes/conditions are not mental disorders. They affect the way people function on a day to day basis. You can attest to that. I agree that pills are probably not the answer. Its important to get to the underlying problem. Soul searching, behavioural therapy, socialising etc can all help. But just because they help it doesnt mean what the person is going through is not a mental illness/condition. You don't have to treat something medically for it to be a medical problem. If its affecting the way you function to such an extent that you are having sucidal thoughts or don't see the point of living, its a mental condition that needs help.


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## grassafue (Mar 20, 2014)

Logical Ambivert Feeler said:


> I disagree when you say these behaviours/feelings/thought processes/conditions are not mental disorders. They affect the way people function on a day to day basis. You can attest to that. I agree that pills are probably not the answer. Its important to get to the underlying problem. Soul searching, behavioural therapy, socialising etc can all help. But just because they help it doesnt mean what the person is going through is not a mental illness/condition. You don't have to treat something medically for it to be a medical problem. If its affecting the way you function to such an extent that you are having sucidal thoughts or don't see the point of living, its a mental condition that needs help.


Yes, I actually can attest to that, and yes, I know what it's like to be so engulfed in depressed thought that it becomes a burden to wake up in the morning. And yes, it affected the way I tried to function to the point that I attempted suicide only to wake up in a mental hospital. I had an epiphany though, recently. I realized that during that time of depression I was trying so hard to be someone that I wasn't, and going against my own personal grain was wearing me out, it was the reason I was so miserable. But see, this is why when you say "affecting the way you function" that makes depression so relative. It implies that there is a norm for living. There is a standard for how one should view him/herself. A mental disorder is considered deviation from the norm. There is nothing wrong with being different, you just have to come to grips with it, which is fucking hard, but if you can accept the person you are, the idea of a mental disorder becomes irrelevent. It can't be fixed from the outside, it is completely and utterly internal. It's like fixing up an old house. Sure you can paint it outside, grow a nice garden, fix the lights, fill in the cracks, and every passerby is gonna go "gee, they really fixed up that decrepit house, it looks so beautiful again" But little do they know that walls are collapsing on the inside, cobwebs shroud every lamp and chandelier, there are old dusty boxes from someone who never completely moved out (the person you think you are) There must be an internal revolution before what you gather through your senses becomes infinite and beautiful


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## donkeybals (Jan 13, 2011)

Logical Ambivert Feeler said:


> Are you seriously denying depression is a mental illness?
> Btw extreme happiness is also a mental illness...its called mania


If that's what you are saying, and what I am saying, you are right and I am wrong. Simple as that. 


@AnonymouMaleSapien God bless.........


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

They definitely exist... I just got out of a psychiatric hospital today after almost two weeks...


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## Enlightenedakacrazy (May 16, 2014)

I don't really feel like reading anyones posts atm.
But I'll throw in my opinion somewhat on-topic to see what happens.

I think the only sane abstract definition of an illness should be: that which does or is likely to cause subjective suffering or inarguable objective damage either to self, others or the environment.
Whereas an illness by this definition is a malicious infection; something inherently destructive which effects/infiltrates/spreads to a or several hosts.
The terms 'destructive' and 'malicious' refers here to the destruction/damage of core values that are dear to us and defines us "spiritually" (= the foundation which we base our lives purposes on. Keep in mind those do not have to be _intellectually_ comprehended life purposes by the subject, for example a nihilist finds it purposeful to investigate, contemplate or even conclude that there is no purpose whether he acknowledges it or not. So by this definition there is no such thing as not having a purpose or spiritual core; anything that drives you, whether you're aware of it or not, whether physically based or idealistically based, is a core value or "spiritual" value as it's often called, that you hold).

Which symbol I guess could be reduced to a single word: corruption.
It's important not to mistake change for corruption or vice versa, though.
Though they can be hard to tell apart.
The difference is that while change is neutral (can be both good or bad, of aiding or corrupting influence), corruption is inherently bad with only a few exceptions (like the corruption of a morally corrupt organization, but this is usually a very last resort method).

Anyway.
So yes, (of course) there is mental illness, but the really hard question is how do we tell and decide.
The best principle I can think of for now is a mix of a damage risk model (using careful statistics and careful correlations from e.g. neuroscience) and by methods of inquiring the subject in question to find out how objectionable, painful or unhelpful his/her "illness"/illness is or seem to be.

As for mental illness vs normal personality traits:
I think you've summarized an important problem with many of these "mental illness compilations/classification manuals" like the DSM.

But as for actual illnesses as contrasted to money-making supposed-mental-illness-lists, whether mental or otherwise (usually mental illness comes together with other types of illnesses (actually I'm pulling this out of my ass, but I assume this to be true and have heard that it's true)), I think it's unhelpful to think of it as being on a personality trait spectrum.
It's more on the continuum of health vs unhealth.
Which is similar to ability vs disability.

Anyway, I'm done.
Random video I clicked on while writing this post; apparently the creator of Community agrees with me on spectrum disorders; (1:18)


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## Psychophant (Nov 29, 2013)

grassafue said:


> This has been a source of great frustration for me especially towards the treatment of "mentally ill" in psychiatry. The term mental disorder is very degrading, it implies that one's behavior or beliefs are out of order, which is a very soviet, nazi idealogy. I believe that the negative symptoms (and by negative I mean those that cause distress) of "mental disorders" are a result of stigmatization of abnormal behavior and an attempt to make society as a whole abide by common principles. This sounds like a stretch, but I'll explain. The symptoms of depression are undeniable, I can attest to this. But it's not an illness. Being depressed is not a sign of "sickness" but rather a misunderstanding of yourself. Symptoms appear when the pressures to conform to societal standards suppress your own intuitions and desires to self actualize. So then, doctors perscribe ssri's, which boost seratonin levels so that you can accept the person you are trying to be. And surprisngly, it works for alot of people. But not someone who endures true existential depression and seeks to find deeper meaning beyond the bullshit that is sprayed by the media and celebrities. I took an SSRI, effexor for 3 months because the first 3 weeks I took it, it was awesome! I was stoked to go to my shitty job and I couldn't wait to go catch up with all my friends who never really cared about me. But eventually i realized this euphoria was as fake as a wedding cake and now I'm getting off of them, and let me tell you the withdrawals are worse than almost any narcotic you find yourself hooked to. But, that's somewhat beside the point. Depression isn't an illness, it is state of being that calls for soul searching, and a quest for truth, and there is a light at the end of every single tunnel.
> 
> Another "mental illness" that is blindly misunderstood as a sickness is schizophrenia. (WHAT...) Yeah, schizophrenics aren't sick, in fact, I'd consider their gifts a blessing. There is no denying that the people labeled as schizophrenic are different from the majority, but like everything else in this society, it's considered a flaw in need of fixing. And this is what turns the hallucinations and delusions from sweet to sour. From the many schizophrenics I've talked to, I can't help but notice that they are spiritually enlightened beings. Their intuition is stronger than that of any other type of person I know. And i completely, 100% blame modern psychiatry and pharmaceutical companies for putting these people through the hell they experience. They are abstract beings, they cannot learn the ways of the "sane" person in all their dull routines, office jobs, church going, do it all over again lives. Notice that the negative symptoms of schizophrenics are "laziness, lack of motivation, poor cognitive skills, sleepiness" Can we really blame them? Is it really that sane to get jazzed up about going to a job where you earn 2 percent of what the company's owner receives? They see through the bullshit, and their abstract mind is relief from the "real" world. They have poor communication skills, they are almost hardwired to be somewhat of loners, in solitude focusing on their writing, music, and art. But of course that isn't "productive" so they are obviously ill. Right.
> 
> ...


Hmm. I'm kind of curious if you've read "Girl, Interrupted." If not, you might appreciate some of Kaysen's thoughts on the subject. I don't appreciate when people disparage others for being different, but if you've dealt with anxiety/depression (which I'm guessing you have from the post) you know that some of it (OCD thoughts for example) are nothing but terrifying and sometimes debilitating, and I would certainly label them as symptoms of an illness to be treated. I'm also somewhat suspicious about the schizophrenia points you made. I have absolutely nothing against schizophrenic people, but many of them (particularly the paranoid types) are having delusions that are dangerous to themselves and others and should be treated. Examples would be Jared Loughner, who attempted to murder Gabrielle Giffords in 2011, and Nathan Gale, who successfully murdered Pantera's lead guitarist in 2004.


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## Sea Sew (Feb 16, 2011)

If we look at the DSM-V, we'll see that 4 personality disorders have been removed due to a change in the criteria of what defines a "disorder". Take the case of the former Schizoid Personality Disorder. Before the DSM-V was published, it was debated whether SPD was a disorder or merely a set of non-pathological personal characteristics that are not found in the majority of people.


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## Logical Ambivert Feeler (Aug 17, 2011)

grassafue said:


> Yes, I actually can attest to that, and yes, I know what it's like to be so engulfed in depressed thought that it becomes a burden to wake up in the morning. And yes, it affected the way I tried to function to the point that I attempted suicide only to wake up in a mental hospital. I had an epiphany though, recently. I realized that during that time of depression I was trying so hard to be someone that I wasn't, and going against my own personal grain was wearing me out, it was the reason I was so miserable. But see, this is why when you say "affecting the way you function" that makes depression so relative. It implies that there is a norm for living. There is a standard for how one should view him/herself. A mental disorder is considered deviation from the norm. There is nothing wrong with being different, you just have to come to grips with it, which is fucking hard, but if you can accept the person you are, the idea of a mental disorder becomes irrelevent. It can't be fixed from the outside, it is completely and utterly internal. It's like fixing up an old house. Sure you can paint it outside, grow a nice garden, fix the lights, fill in the cracks, and every passerby is gonna go "gee, they really fixed up that decrepit house, it looks so beautiful again" But little do they know that walls are collapsing on the inside, cobwebs shroud every lamp and chandelier, there are old dusty boxes from someone who never completely moved out (the person you think you are) There must be an internal revolution before what you gather through your senses becomes infinite and beautiful


I understand what you are saying completely. 
However, an illness is not something that needs to be fixed externally to be classified as one. If it causes suffering that needs help, then thats an illness. You can solve it by medication, surgery, personal realisation, it doesnt matter. Damage to the body or mind that causes suffering to the extent that help is required is illness.
A mental disorder is deviation from the norm that causes suffering. It is not something like being a bit more sad or a bit more paranoid. It is extreme sadness, paranoia, delusional thinking, anxiety that causes suffering to the individual that requires help.
Unless you are implying being constantly anxious or constantly depressed or constantly paranoid or constantly obsessive etc to the point thats all you are a deviation from the norm?


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