# ISFP or INFP?



## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Hello, everyone! I wasn't sure where exactly to put this thread, here or in the "What's my Type" place because I am needing help with type, but specifically I wanted to talk cognitive functions so it's a bit of both.

I've narrowed my type down to IxFP. Since I needed help, I went to someone who knows me better than I know myself: my sister. I told her to be BRUTALLY honest with my behavior and bit my tongue at what I didn't agree with. I sat down with her and took an online test (the ONLY one I find reliable is the Keys2Cognition one, as I own a book by the doctor who wrote it and trust it) and I came out ISFP. My Si was decently developed, however, but my Ne was low. So was Te and Fe, so that rules out ISxJ.

I want to completely rule out INFP so I don't go around telling people false things. I DO spend a lot of time daydreaming, but not in the same way that INFPs do I don't think? I don't outwardly abstract much.

Would a good way of determining if I use Se or Ne questioning if I get my energy from DOING things and engaging in the world or abstracting and talking about theories/ideas? In this case, I'm going with Se. I've attached a screenshot of my test results.

Thanks for your time!


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## Aelthwyn (Oct 27, 2010)

SheWolf said:


> Would a good way of determining if I use Se or Ne questioning if I get my energy from DOING things and engaging in the world or abstracting and talking about theories/ideas? In this case, I'm going with Se. I've attached a screenshot of my test results.


that does seem to be the main difference between myself and my husband who is ISFP. 

He gets energized by working on artistic craft projects or tinkering with mechanical things or going for a hike or watching exciting videos of stuff working/happening such as people doing crazy stunts, people having epic accidents, or like... how they make lightening in glass and slow-motion capture of bursting a water balloon, etc. Basically if he doesn't have something stimulating his senses - to see & hear - or if he hasn't got something to do with his hands, he gets antsy, dissatisfied with life, and grows tired very quickly. Sitting and reading a book, sitting and just thinking/imagining, sitting and writing stuff is really not what excites him.

Me on the other hand, I feel most alive when I'm at the computer writing down an interesting thought or story idea. I thrive on reading a good book and feel full of energy when I reach the end and it was SO good. I feel like it was really a quality time with my friends if we just sat and talked about our ideas rather than going out and doing anything. I am generally pretty fulfilled by experiencing stuff in my imagination, in fact sometimes I feel like real experiences are less engaging for me. I'm pretty sure my husband would never say that.


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## KalimofDaybreak (Aug 6, 2015)

SheWolf said:


> Hello, everyone! I wasn't sure where exactly to put this thread, here or in the "What's my Type" place because I am needing help with type, but specifically I wanted to talk cognitive functions so it's a bit of both.
> 
> I've narrowed my type down to IxFP. Since I needed help, I went to someone who knows me better than I know myself: my sister. I told her to be BRUTALLY honest with my behavior and bit my tongue at what I didn't agree with. I sat down with her and took an online test (the ONLY one I find reliable is the Keys2Cognition one, as I own a book by the doctor who wrote it and trust it) and I came out ISFP. My Si was decently developed, however, but my Ne was low. So was Te and Fe, so that rules out ISxJ.
> 
> ...


Given what I spoke with you about in the previous thread, I'd probably say ISFP just because you seemed so Ni; you could be influenced by that function from the tertiary position. I really, really, _really_ don't see Si-Ne in you.

That said, I'd still probably say you're an INFJ. It's not uncommon for us to score highly in Fi. In the end I'm not you, so I obviously can't say for certain, but you don't exhibit many sensing qualities. Getting your energy from an activity is different from the functions; functions are a mental perspective. They influence what kinds of information your brain most naturally focuses on, but relaxing with a certain activity has nothing to do with (at least, not inherently). The question here is _why_ you like engaging the world over being abstract (which, that in of itself, if we are being strictly Jungian, is extraversion--not even related to sensation and intuition). You can't determine your personality based off of one or two things that you do for two reasons: 1) it's about why you do things and not what you do, and 2) personality is a general attitude or set of characteristics that persist over a long period of time. Merely showing a preference for a certain activity in one moment is about as relevant to who you are as a drop of water is to a lake. At least, I'd hope you see yourself as being a little more intricate than that.

As far as tests go, I wouldn't put too much stock in them. Tests measure performance, not who you are. _You_ is not quantifiable. This means that on any given day you could have radically different results. For instance, in my life I have scored INFP, ENFP, INTP, INTJ, and INFJ (with those functions, not just on one of the online MBTI sorters, and with more reputable sources like CelebrityTypes' tests). I'm still an INFJ, though. If you really wanted to measure your type through a test, you'd have to be more systematic about it--taking the aggregate scores over a period of time and finding the average. And if you were going to do this, you'd be much better served taking the official MBTI sorter a few times rather than any cognitive functions tests; I find that Jung's writing of the cognitive functions more closely matches Myers' dichotomies as opposed to how the functions are portrayed nowadays. One of online MBTI counterfeits wouldn't suffice either; the official MBTI actually uses psychometric standards when evaluating your type, the stuff you find online is essentially a horoscope.

With respect to the Keys2Cognition test...it's a mixed bag. On one hand, Nardi very clearly knows what he's doing and I respect his opinions. On the other hand, everything I just said about tests still applies, with the added caveat that Nardi's work is inauthentic to Jung's original notion of functions. Rather than seeing them as a mental perspective, Nardi is looking at what is measurable in human thought--actual, conscious processes that humans think. And he even says himself that his initial work wasn't MBTI-related, he was just looking for patterns in the human mind using electroencephalogram (EEG) scanning. He's only measuring the activity in the cerebral cortex of the brain, which can be attributed to basically anything, including but certainly not limited to the functions. Cognitive functions are more passive than conscious processes. As I've already said, they're mental perspectives, not things you do.

All this is to say that if you really want to determine your type, you're not going to find answers in tests, and to some extent this forum either. At least, you're likely not going to be convinced unless you come to a conclusion for yourself. I continued following the thread you and I conversed in a little farther after I stopped responding, and while I think that the comments there were useful, overall I think they might have caused more confusion than needed. The only way you're going to figure out your type and be happy with it is if you study the material, learn it really well, and then begin to apply it to your own mind. You'll eventually draw out your own cognitive perspective, and having a friend alongside you with this can make that process a lot easier (without a friend, this stuff can very easily make you neurotic).

All that said, this forum is an excellent resource and I'd _highly_ recommend you read things posted by @reckful, @PaladinX, @mistakenforstranger, and @OtterSocks. They're an insightful bunch and have been helpful to me in a number of ways. And _absolutely_, no questions asked, read _Psychological Types_. You're just going to get more confused if you don't have that background information.

Don't take everyone's word as gospel, though. Don't change your type just because someone said something profound. Like I said, this is about who you are over a long period of time. No one can tell you that except for yourself.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Aelthwyn said:


> SheWolf said:
> 
> 
> > Would a good way of determining if I use Se or Ne questioning if I get my energy from DOING things and engaging in the world or abstracting and talking about theories/ideas? In this case, I'm going with Se. I've attached a screenshot of my test results.
> ...


Your husband almost seems in the realm of xSTP (probably ESTP) in the sense that he loves figuring out how things work. That's Ti. ISFP's have Te, even though it's their last function, we don't care about tinkering. Curious about the world? Yes. But you won't find me tinkering with a car or something. Watching videos of the scientific experiments is fascinating to me, but probably not in the same way it is for him.
As for the reading thing, I will only read whatever captures my interest. I LOVE bookstores actually. But I usually only read very action-heavy and fantasy type books. I love horror books as well. Nonfiction (unless it's something that I'm interested in like animals) is boring. Mystery books will excite me. I believe that's my Tertiary Ni as Ni is attracted to the mysterious, archetypal, etc.
Also, your Tertiary function is how you find "relief" and comfort, Ni would make sense. Once in awhile I'll become fascinated with something theoretical and want to learn all about it. 
I don't read much, but when I DO read, I get engrossed and won't stop till I'm done. Once again, to me that sounds Tert Ni. It becomes obsessed with one thing at a time. 
As for writing, I love to write occasionally, especially poems and short stories. I can't stick with it though. I get bored and want to do something.

Sitting down and talking ideas with friends? Ehhhhh. I think I would rather go to the movies or for a walk or swimming! Or even video games! I like talking about ideas some, but not all the time.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

KalimofDaybreak said:


> SheWolf said:
> 
> 
> > Hello, everyone! I wasn't sure where exactly to put this thread, here or in the "What's my Type" place because I am needing help with type, but specifically I wanted to talk cognitive functions so it's a bit of both.
> ...



Well, I'm sure I've narrowed my type down to IxFP. In my opinion, Ni is a powerful function. I read somewhere that ISFP's will test INFJ quite often because of it's influence.
But, let's think about this, Ni-doms LIVE in their abstractions. I.... Don't do that. I don't abstract things often. If I don't see a theory or something as realistic, it's dismissed.
Also, the more I study, the more I realize that I really don't have any Fe. I grew up with two Fe-users and they drive me nuts. I just don't understand them. 

Also, as I've learned, when you're an introvert you engage other people and the world with your Auxiliary function. So if I was INFP that would be through spouting out ideas, theories, possibilities, etc.
Se would be "let's go DO something fun together! Oh, this music sounds good, let's dance!"
And that's me. When I hangout with friends, I can't STAND just sitting in their room doing nothing. Like seriously. Even play video games if we can't go outside. SOMETHING. PLEASE. And that to me is what Se is. Active. Engage in your environment. 

It's also taking in things objectively with no further processing. Best example I can think of is my theater appreciation class. We were told to watch movies and find their hidden meanings, connections, themes, etc.
For my ENTP friend, this was great. For me, it was hell. I just enjoyed the movies as is. Abstracting I think is somewhat difficult to me.

Also, you said that sometimes the functions you understand easily are the ones you may use? Se. Se was the only one that "clicked" easily for me.

And I think that having understanding of cognition might to some extent SKEW what you think you're true type is. When I talked to my sister about how my behavior is, some of it hurt. For example selfishness. How I seem to be concerned with what I think is right versus appealing to what is important to others. Fi. Also how it's hard to connect with me on a deep level. Also Fi. But also good things like how I never changed who I was to appeal to anyone or how she trusted me because I had such deeply held morals that there was no worry that I or anyone would make me violate them. Fi. 
As for Se, she explained that I never accept anything unless it has a practical application. I thought my whole theater appreciation class was bull outside of learning the different techniques of film. I found the abstracting as something pretty useless and difficult to do.

Also, you gotta think about what you prioritize. I DO have ideals and a vivid imagination and respect other's, but if there is no practical application to it then I question and later dismiss it. An Intuit is NEVER going to dismiss their ideals. Especially Ni. Their perceptions about the future and their ideals are absolute. Ne gets defensive about people questioning all their possibilities but they won't dismiss them. Me? Yeah. I will. 
Since Ni is tert in an ISFP I did have a plan for my life early on and enjoyed talking about it, but I left it alone till the time came to plan it.
Ni-Dom won't do this. They're always planning one course of action. And any changes in plans freaks them out. Not me. I bounced for awhile between three very different careers but I had probably what was Tert Ni screaming at me to stay on course. But Se gets very distracted in the moment. Ni-Se would always stay on course with Inferior Se screaming at it to take another opportunity but this is a very uncomfortable thing to do.

I'll definitely consider buying the book. But the exerpts you gave me last time kinda made my head hurt. Lol. So it may or may not confuse me even more. But I'll give it a shot!


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

It will basically boil down to, do you entertain possibilities to the point you would consider it a part of your world view?
Or do you tend to deal with what exists, right in front of you in the here and now?

Do you pay attention to what is going on in your environment, seeking things that feel pleasurable be it sports, fine food, nice clothes, essentially drinking up these experiences?
Or is your attention placed on what may happen, or what is to come, perhaps focusing on the possibilities of a situation/thing/event interpreting how it could unfold, perhaps even making random or quirky associations that seems to grow?

Are you more aware of what has happened, or what is now happening, or even what will happen?
Or are you more aware of what may have happened, or how now could have happened differently, or what might/could happen?


Hmm taking feeling into account here, I would say the above will be strongly influence by what feels right with things/situations/events that feel important to you. You may entertain possibilities only with things that hold worth, or you may seek experiences that have some meaning to you.


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## Prada (Sep 10, 2015)

@SheWolf Are you more practical and down to earth or idealistic? Where does your focus lie, the physical world or imaginative one?


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

Prada said:


> @SheWolf Are you more practical and down to earth or idealistic? Where does your focus lie, the physical world or imaginative one?


The last thing is more of an introvert vs extroverted thing


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## Prada (Sep 10, 2015)

karmachameleon said:


> The last thing is more of an introvert vs extroverted thing


Not really. I'm an extrovert and I spend way more time thinking about abstract things than practical ones. The few ISxx I know are more down to earth than me. Maybe I phrased the question wrong but it's more of an addition to the one before than something that should be taken out of context.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

Prada said:


> Not really. I'm an extrovert and I spend way more time thinking about abstract things than practical ones. The few ISxx I know are more down to earth than me. Maybe I phrased the question wrong but it's more of an addition to the one before than something that should be taken out of context.


Like about what? All thoughts are abstract


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## Valtire (Jan 1, 2014)

Prada said:


> Not really. I'm an extrovert and I spend way more time thinking about abstract things than practical ones.


Introversion doesn't deal with the tangible world and is thus abstract, extroversion does deal with the tangible world and is concrete. 

I wouldn't call sensers practical either. That ridiculous stereotype is why so few people type as sensers. Sensers like applied, useful subjects (chemistry, biology) and intuitives like open-ended subjects with no immediate obvious use (psychology, theoretical physics). Despite that, there are exceptions all round.


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## Prada (Sep 10, 2015)

Fried Eggz said:


> Introversion doesn't deal with the tangible world and is thus abstract, extroversion does deal with the tangible world and is concrete.


That's the same thing as saying that all extroverts are down to earth and all introverts are dreamers. Which is wrong if you look around you.



Fried Eggz said:


> I wouldn't call sensers practical either. That ridiculous stereotype is why so few people type as sensers. Sensers like applied, useful subjects (chemistry, biology) and intuitives like open-ended subjects with no immediate obvious use (psychology, theoretical physics). Despite that, there are exceptions all round.


The Myers and Briggs Foundation disagrees.
The Myers & Briggs Foundation - Sensing or Intuition


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

karmachameleon said:


> Like about what? All thoughts are abstract


Let's use the term conceptual then. Intuitives tend to think conceptually, rather than about material things. It's a move away from the physical world and objects, and toward concepts that are less represented by material things. 

Abstract has a lot of meanings/connotations, while conceptual is a bit clearer, IMO. And I also prefer the term material to concrete. In part, I do this, because abstract and concrete also have different meanings in Jungian terms--abstraction is something that a conscious, differentiated function attains, while concrete is how, for instance, unconscious, undifferentiated intuition would be, so one could have concrete intuition--but to most people, those are opposite terms. So if we use material and conceptual, we kind of avoid the confusion--or at least I do, in my mind. ;-)


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## Prada (Sep 10, 2015)

karmachameleon said:


> Like about what? All thoughts are abstract


Thoughts themselves are abstract but their content doesn't have to be. Seeing between the lines, seeing connections between things, seeing underneath the surface so to speak. That's what I meant by abstract thoughts. As for practical, it's about focusing on the things around you and what's going on at that very moment. For example, when you see two people talking to each other someone focuses on their body language, movement, faces etc. and someone starts pondering about the purpose of human interactions and what it means in the grand scheme of the world.

Though, ferroequinologist explained it better.


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

Prada said:


> Though, ferroequinologist explained it better.


That'd be a first! I'm notorious for taking simple concepts and making them so confusing nobody understands them. It's my specialty. I should have been an author of government regulations. ;-)


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## Valtire (Jan 1, 2014)

Prada said:


> That's the same thing as saying that all extroverts are down to earth and all introverts are dreamers. Which is wrong if you look around you.


It's not even close to the same thing. Abstract does not mean dreamer. They're not even similar words.



Prada said:


> The Myers and Briggs Foundation disagrees.
> The Myers & Briggs Foundation - Sensing or Intuition


MBTI is a nonsense system only useful for people who want to feel superior to others.


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## Prada (Sep 10, 2015)

Fried Eggz said:


> MBTI is a nonsense system only useful for people who want to feel superior to others.


That's your opinion and I don't see why or how it negates my point.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Prada said:


> @SheWolf Are you more practical and down to earth or idealistic? Where does your focus lie, the physical world or imaginative one?


I used to think I was idealistic simply because I spend so much time in my own head. But, truthfully, I'm not a real idealist. If something doesn't seem practical or plausible, I dismiss it. I don't come up with theories easily. I want facts. 
I agree with this being an introvert vs extrovert question to some extent. ALL introverts have a little imaginary world within themselves that they live in. I think more so it's about what that inner world is, what triggers that mental imagery, and how it manifests in the real world.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Prada said:


> karmachameleon said:
> 
> 
> > Like about what? All thoughts are abstract
> ...


In that case, I believe I'm Sensor.
I'm nosy. I listen in on people's conversations. But the conversations themselves. I AM going to start having to take note of my thinking process.
But for example, if I see two squirrels tussling over a piece of food, an Intuitive might start immediately wondering why everything in life is so greedy. Why are we driven to fight one another for something we can easily find somewhere else? And start pondering that concept LONG after the squirrels have left and probably wouldn't even notice they were gone.


That's not me. Those thoughts might occur to me for a moment, but I wouldn't dwell on it. I'd be interested in seeing how the tussling plays out between them. Very interested in what's actually happening. I might start pondering about squirrel behavior on a biological sense because I'm curious about those things.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

SheWolf said:


> In that case, I believe I'm Sensor.
> I'm nosy. I listen in on people's conversations. But the conversations themselves. I AM going to start having to take note of my thinking process.
> But for example, if I see two squirrels tussling over a piece of food, an Intuitive might start immediately wondering why everything in life is so greedy. Why are we driven to fight one another for something we can easily find somewhere else? And start pondering that concept LONG after the squirrels have left and probably wouldn't even notice they were gone.
> 
> ...


do you try to avoid conflict a lot or do you welcome it when it needs to happen?


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

KalimofDaybreak said:


> So it's a desire thing: you want there to be something more, you feel like the world _needs_ to be more than just what is?


Yeah, I'd say that's accurate. If someone presented actual evidence to me that there was nothing spiritual about our world, well, excuse me whilst I go dive off the nearest cliff. 




KalimofDaybreak said:


> Maybe not. I hesitate to say that, though; it is human to be scared of what we don't know. I think it's better to say that intuitives are more trusting of the future, maybe more idealistic in that sense. Whoever told you that you exhibit tendencies of lower intuition is not incorrect, but that doesn't make them exclusive to unconscious intuition. I certainly have those moments where I'm terrified of the future, but the difference is that a dominant intuitive can more easily reason/manage them, I think. Or perhaps we're so accustomed to intuition that we cease to take it seriously all the time? I don't know. In any case, the way you describe it, that the image is so intense that it invades your mind and takes over, is a strong sign of a lower intuition. Given the fact that you've said that you can be antisocial at times, it make me think that your evidence of a strong intuition is due to the fact that in your introversion, you have brought intuition up from the unconscious but still don't have the refined control over it (assuming of course that it is your tertiary). I'll come back to this in a bit.


I think you may want to take into account the environment I had to grow up in. My mother is a straight-up stereotypical ESFJ. Very Mother-Goosey. All I ever heard growing up was "You can't do that!" and "It's too dangerous!"
For example, I brought up wanting to ride a rollercoaster once. Then I was bombarded with all of the horror stories Mom heard about them. I was also home schooled. Basically, I think I HAD to rely on my imagination to keep myself from going insane. I was so terribly sheltered, thinking on it now... and I was never encouraged or uplifted to do anything. In fact, if it were up to my Mom, I wouldn't go college, I wouldn't ever go any farther from her than the next town over. I'd be some little housewife. The thought makes me want to throw up my lunch.
I'd be yelled at for going outside and playing sometimes because it was too dirty and I could get hurt. I love my mother dearly, but there are moments when she borders on obsession. She's gotten much better in recent years, but I think that's because I've finally started to wear down her will. 



KalimofDaybreak said:


> Interesting. I think that hazy memories might be more a quality of intuition as a whole, but if you don't struggle to remember details that also speaks to sensation. As I've been saying, more on that at the end.


Well, I would think a Se-Ni might have a tendency to have a little bit of a hazy memories. My clear memories are more like "snapshots" from a camera of specific places, peoples, conversations, etc. 
I remember the layouts of every home I've lived in and even my friend's homes. To me it's almost... creepy how I have that ability.



KalimofDaybreak said:


> That stinks about your martial arts friend. All of what you've said here, though, does smack quite a bit of sensation. I'll come back to this.


........
NE-SE-NE-SE-NE-SE-NE-SE-NE-SE-NE-SE-NE-SE-NE-SE-NE

C'MON, BRAIN, WHY DON'T YOU MAKE UP YOUR MIND? D: I think it's safe to say my head is not normal and I've officially broke MBTI. 





KalimofDaybreak said:


> It does make sense, and this is why I've kept putting off answering things directly. It's become clear to me that my methods of helping people through typology are very T, which, based on what you've said, definitely seems to be your inferior function. Not so much based on your reading habits, but the fact that the content will make you space out like you've said. All of this does seem to point to an inferior T, especially in light of the fact that my 'pedagogy' (if you can call it that) is more T-inclined.


Yeah, you taking a more academic approach to this is probably not the best way for my own brain to comprehend it. Ugh. Sometimes I wonder how I make it through life. 



KalimofDaybreak said:


> The fact that you exhibit many sensing qualities is also telling. I've never doubted that you were a feeler, which in of itself can speak to your dominant function, but the simple fact that you show a lot of sensation and intuition is an indication of the fact they are neutral in your psyche (auxiliary and tertiary). As I've already said, introversion could bring out a tertiary Ni more, so it isn't unreasonable to assume that, for all practical purposes, they're fairly equal.
> 
> And here's where I'm going with this. Because you repress thinking and are neutral towards S and N, then the only answer to give you is that you're an IxFP, which I can see quite clearly. Furthermore, I don't actually think that which auxiliary function you prefer is to important, or that it at least shouldn't bother you too much. You're more or less defined by your dominant function, which for an introverted with Fi in her stack, as I have already said, make you an IxFP. You definitely seem to use Se quite a bit, and your intuition does seem to be frequently introverted, so in those terms it seems to me that the type most closely matching your personality would be ISFP. However, I would add the caveat that you are quite intuitive for an ISFP, although many of those intuitive traits could also be attributed to feeling. But, purely in terms of functions and what I have observed, that seems to be the way to go.


I think, honestly, with MBTI you just have to choose what one is your best fit. NONE of them are gonna fit like a glove and I think it's even safe to say two people of the same type are not going to be the same (especially if you study Enneagram along with MBTI)
That would be like saying all INxJ's are like Hitler or Jesus Christ. Yeah... no. 

And yeah, kinda why I created the thread, lol. I know I have to be IxFP. Se or Ne I'm not sure of. I lean more toward Se with an unusually vivid Ni. Because for example, when asked to theorize and abstract in my college classes stressed me out. My English 101 class was A LOT of deciphering the meanings of Henry David Thoreau's work and what our own interpretations of them were. It was... interesting, but overall I found it a bit irritating. I think for an Intuit, this would be heaven.
Had the same instructor for Film Appreciation which was all about watching movies and discussing their themes, motives, meanings, archetypes, etc. This was a bit of a struggle for me whereas my ENxP friend excelled at it. Funny story, our final assignment was to watch a movie of our own choosing and discuss its themes or whatever in an essay. I did it, got like 86% on it. Some points were good and others obviously weren't. Well, said ENxP friend turned his in TWO DAYS late and got a 95%. I was very irritated. I was excellent at the quizzes where details of the films were called into question. Also remembering the different types of camera shots and whatever.

I am relieved to be in my biology classes where everything is a straight forward "yes or no"/"black and white" answer.


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## Bitterself (Mar 14, 2015)

@SheWolf My sister is an ESFP. I'll describe her. Do you have some common traits?

She likes spending time both with herself and other people. She is really obsessed with fashion. Not buying a cloth makes her stressed. Sometimes she may even cry. Most of her stress in life comes from this and school. She doesn't like school. She can't understand most of the concepts, and I have to explain them to her. She likes to control other people, I don't know why. She hates when other people come to our house and doesn't want to meet them. She judges other people a lot. She cares too much on what other people say to her. She always says to me : "I wish I was like you, not caring about what other people say, but I just can't." She says what she thinks right in front of your eyes, but still she cares about her family. She likes gossiping. Her only dream of the future is to be rich. That's all that she wants. She likes to use irony. She tries very hard on what she does. She is very concerned about her health. One single strach and she goes insane. She thinks she is going to die . She loves cats and dogs. One day she told me that she loves them more than other people (except for her family).
Edit: She might even be an ISFP, I'm not sure.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

A great example of an ESFP is Amy Schumer. Adele too. I can't think of any famous ISFPs on the topof my head. Oh except the Natalie girl. Oh and Lorde.
And breaking the stereotypes here, my science teacher is an ESFP. Shes pretty hilarious and shes almost never serious lol


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Eluid Sade said:


> @SheWolf My sister is an ESFP. I'll describe her. Do you have some common traits?
> 
> She likes spending time both with herself and other people. She is really obsessed with fashion. Not buying a cloth makes her stressed. Sometimes she may even cry. Most of her stress in life comes from this and school. She doesn't like school. She can't understand most of the concepts, and I have to explain them to her. She likes to control other people, I don't know why. She hates when other people come to our house and doesn't want to meet them. She judges other people a lot. She cares too much on what other people say to her. She always says to me : "I wish I was like you, not caring about what other people say, but I just can't." She says what she thinks right in front of your eyes, but still she cares about her family. She likes gossiping. Her only dream of the future is to be rich. That's all that she wants. She likes to use irony. She tries very hard on what she does. She is very concerned about her health. One single strach and she goes insane. She thinks she is going to die . She loves cats and dogs. One day she told me that she loves them more than other people (except for her family).
> Edit: She might even be an ISFP, I'm not sure.


Well, I relate to the love of fashion. But NOT to the point where I will cry if I don't get a shirt or something. Lol. I do have a habit of liking to know what other people think of me but ultimately I march to the beat of my own drum. I am concerned about my appearance but it's not an unhealthy obsession. My concern for health is more of being a touch of a hypochondriac. But I'm not THAT extreme.
I do love animals more than people lol.
My dream is more so to work my dream job with animals and have a ranch of my own and travel. And be married. 

And LOL at not liking people coming to the house. It's not that I'm an antisocial freak, it just.... Stresses me out?

I don't care for some aspects of school much either. But some I really love, like my biology and science classes as well as my more "fun" classes like theater.

I really don't mean to be rude, but your sister seems to have some.... Unhealthy habits. I do relate to most of her, but NOT in the extremes she does.


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## Bitterself (Mar 14, 2015)

SheWolf said:


> Well, I relate to the love of fashion. But NOT to the point where I will cry if I don't get a shirt or something. Lol. I do have a habit of liking to know what other people think of me but ultimately I march to the beat of my own drum. I am concerned about my appearance but it's not an unhealthy obsession. My concern for health is more of being a touch of a hypochondriac. But I'm not THAT extreme.
> I do love animals more than people lol.
> My dream is more so to work my dream job with animals and have a ranch of my own and travel. And be married.
> 
> ...


Lol, I know she is a little bit unhealthy, but she gets better when school ends XD Maybe I may have exaggerated some things. As you said, she just stresses out when people come. Also, she has only cried once about clothes (I don't know why I said a sometimes XD). Since you relate to her, I think you are an ISFP but with a higher Ni than normal (by watching what you have posted so far).


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Eluid Sade said:


> SheWolf said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I relate to the love of fashion. But NOT to the point where I will cry if I don't get a shirt or something. Lol. I do have a habit of liking to know what other people think of me but ultimately I march to the beat of my own drum. I am concerned about my appearance but it's not an unhealthy obsession. My concern for health is more of being a touch of a hypochondriac. But I'm not THAT extreme.
> ...


Does she talk about her feelings often? Does she do any crafts like drawing, painting, knitting, etc? What about sports?


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## Bitterself (Mar 14, 2015)

SheWolf said:


> Does she talk about her feelings often? Does she do any crafts like drawing, painting, knitting, etc? What about sports?


Yes, she talks about her feelings all of the time, how much she loved that cloth, how much she hates X person or when she is cuddling the cat. She HATES science, she's not good at sports but she likes reading books (novels). Actually,she is not that good at most of things. But she is a good speaker. I think what motivates her in life is being better than others. She thinks life is a competition whose winner is the one who's got the most attention or the most things.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Eluid Sade said:


> SheWolf said:
> 
> 
> > Does she talk about her feelings often? Does she do any crafts like drawing, painting, knitting, etc? What about sports?
> ...


Sounds more so like an unhealthy Fe.
Fi users don't talk about their true feelings very openly.


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## reybridge (Feb 24, 2014)

SheWolf said:


> Hello, everyone! I wasn't sure where exactly to put this thread, here or in the "What's my Type" place because I am needing help with type, but specifically I wanted to talk cognitive functions so it's a bit of both.
> 
> I've narrowed my type down to IxFP. Since I needed help, I went to someone who knows me better than I know myself: my sister. I told her to be BRUTALLY honest with my behavior and bit my tongue at what I didn't agree with. I sat down with her and took an online test (the ONLY one I find reliable is the Keys2Cognition one, as I own a book by the doctor who wrote it and trust it) and I came out ISFP. My Si was decently developed, however, but my Ne was low. So was Te and Fe, so that rules out ISxJ.
> 
> ...


Based on my understanding of cognitive function, what differentiate INFP and ISFP is:
- ISFPs with their Se function perceives physical object from outside the mind.
- INFPs with their Ne function perceives conceptual object from outside the mind.
Physical object is a representation of anything you can think of, while conceptual object is the rule of anything you can think of.

Based on these facts:
- You often day dream.
- You like to read a text book.
You are an INxP. Day dreaming is Si work, because it perceives physical object from the mind. And read a book full of texts is Ne work, because what you perceives from it is not a representation of anything, but a rule the book gives.

You can see the definition of cognitive function i understand here: http://personalitycafe.com/cognitiv...s-please-only-people-pure-logic-enter-10.html.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

reybridge said:


> Based on my understanding of cognitive function, what differentiate INFP and ISFP is:
> - ISFPs with their Se function perceives physical object from outside the mind.
> - INFPs with their Ne function perceives conceptual object from outside the mind.
> Physical object is a representation of anything you can think of, while conceptual object is the rule of anything you can think of.
> ...


Day dreaming alone is not indicative of Ne. See and example of Ne-Si versus Se-Ni here

In which case, I'm a Se. I don't often see objects in such a philosophical manner. Never have.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

@KalimofDaybreak

I also don't know how much you are into Enneagram, but my types are 4w3, 9w1, and 6w7. (I'm not FOR SURE of the order. I think, however, 4 is my lead)

Now, this may or may not help. The problem is Type 4's are usually Intuitives, INFP's and INFJ's. ISFP's can, but rarely, suit this Enneagram especially if they have a 3wing.

However, 9 and 6 are usually directed more toward Sensing, especially 6. I notice all my wings are more extraverted ones. It's kinda rare for an Intuit to have 6 in their Tritype, I believe, as it's characteristics tend to lean toward Inferior Intuition. But, eh, who knows?


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

@SheWolf, this comes from a great resource on typology, "Personality Type" by Lenore Thomson. I think Se and Ne can be confused with one another a lot actually. I would describe Se as pure experiencing, while Ne is more about exploring.

Another useful link: The Eight Functions (Typology 201)



> “Whatever types we happen to be, we use all four means of Perception in one way or another. For example, if we were spending a day at the beach:
> 
> 
> * Extraverted Sensation would prompt us to go with our sense impressions as they occurred: to lie in the sun, play in the surf, listen to the gulls piping overhead.
> ...


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

mistakenforstranger said:


> @SheWolf, this comes from a great resource on typology, "Personality Type" by Lenore Thomson. I think Se and Ne can be confused with one another a lot actually. I would describe Se as pure experiencing, while Ne is more about exploring.
> 
> Another useful link: The Eight Functions (Typology 201)


Hmmmmm... This is most intriguing! Well, for this, I'd say I relate more to Se-Ni.

I could picture myself hearing the guy talk about the restaurant and thinking "Hey cool! Maybe we could check it out."
But not necessarily seeing a connection like "There's probably a theme park around!"

I kinda chuckled at the Ni one. That sounds like something I would think. Si would probably be the one I relate to least.


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## reybridge (Feb 24, 2014)

SheWolf said:


> Day dreaming alone is not indicative of Ne. See and example of Ne-Si versus Se-Ni here
> 
> In which case, I'm a Se. I don't often see objects in such a philosophical manner. Never have.


You don't need to see something in philosophical manner to use Ne function. Ne function is to perceive a rule, not to perceive something philosophically. And yes, day dreaming is not Ne work, it is Si work. When you undestand something, you must use Ne function.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

reybridge said:


> You don't need to see something in philosophical manner to use Ne function. Ne function is to perceive a rule, not to perceive something philosophically. And yes, day dreaming is not Ne work, it is Si work. When you undestand something, you must use Ne function.


By that logic, daydreaming could also be Ni at work.

In fact, Ni is basically the very definition of imagination.

If you take Enneagram into account, I could very well be a 9. Type 9 ISFP's wil be very in touch with their Ni.


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## reybridge (Feb 24, 2014)

SheWolf said:


> By that logic, daydreaming could also be Ni at work.
> 
> In fact, Ni is basically the very definition of imagination.
> 
> If you take Enneagram into account, I could very well be a 9. Type 9 ISFP's wil be very in touch with their Ni.


No, Ni is not used to perceive images from the mind. Ni function perceives conceptual object from the mind, not the image resulted in the mind. When you perceive a rule about something in your mind, that is Ni work. But when your mind shows you an image, although it is based on a specific rule or pattern, you are using Si function.


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## KalimofDaybreak (Aug 6, 2015)

SheWolf said:


> @KalimofDaybreak
> 
> I also don't know how much you are into Enneagram, but my types are 4w3, 9w1, and 6w7. (I'm not FOR SURE of the order. I think, however, 4 is my lead)
> 
> ...


I did a little bit of research into enneagram, but I don't find it too helpful. At least, not as valuable as Jung's insights are.

The studies that have been done, thought not great, linked type 4s to both Ni and Fi as functions. So whatever that's worth.

It's also not uncommon for INFJ 5s to have a 6 wing, but I wouldn't really know what to attribute that to. Maybe a less intuitive INFJ? That doesn't seem possible.

Myself, I score in the 541 or 549 tritype, and I think that's decently accurate, but the issue here is the same with most other personality inventories: this is behaviorist psychology. In a Jungian framework, sure the functions might manifest in common ways, but the issue is, once again, _why_ you are the way you are, not just how the types correlate. I see no reason why ISFP would be incompatible with your enneagram type.


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## KalimofDaybreak (Aug 6, 2015)

@reybridge and @SheWolf, imagination involves all of the functions. Intuition doesn't make a person more imaginative than the other, just more dreamy. But active imagination, when you're consciously dreaming up scenarios, is a process that involves the entire psyche.


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## KalimofDaybreak (Aug 6, 2015)

SheWolf said:


> Yeah, I'd say that's accurate. If someone presented actual evidence to me that there was nothing spiritual about our world, well, excuse me whilst I go dive off the nearest cliff.


Well, Western society predisposes itself against any sort of spirituality, so don't take any 'proof' too seriously. Also, just in general, don't jump off of cliffs. I hear that causes cancer or something like that.



SheWolf said:


> I think you may want to take into account the environment I had to grow up in. My mother is a straight-up stereotypical ESFJ. Very Mother-Goosey. All I ever heard growing up was "You can't do that!" and "It's too dangerous!"
> For example, I brought up wanting to ride a rollercoaster once. Then I was bombarded with all of the horror stories Mom heard about them. I was also home schooled. Basically, I think I HAD to rely on my imagination to keep myself from going insane. I was so terribly sheltered, thinking on it now... and I was never encouraged or uplifted to do anything. In fact, if it were up to my Mom, I wouldn't go college, I wouldn't ever go any farther from her than the next town over. I'd be some little housewife. The thought makes me want to throw up my lunch.
> I'd be yelled at for going outside and playing sometimes because it was too dirty and I could get hurt. I love my mother dearly, but there are moments when she borders on obsession. She's gotten much better in recent years, but I think that's because I've finally started to wear down her will.


Yeah, I can see how that breeds intuition. My own mother is an ISFJ, so very much in the same boat. Don't be too down on moms, though. They're pretty great. 



SheWolf said:


> Well, I would think a Se-Ni might have a tendency to have a little bit of a hazy memories. My clear memories are more like "snapshots" from a camera of specific places, peoples, conversations, etc.
> I remember the layouts of every home I've lived in and even my friend's homes. To me it's almost... creepy how I have that ability.


I can see that. I have a sort of 'photographic' memory for the details I do remember, what few there are.



SheWolf said:


> ........
> NE-SE-NE-SE-NE-SE-NE-SE-NE-SE-NE-SE-NE-SE-NE-SE-NE
> 
> C'MON, BRAIN, WHY DON'T YOU MAKE UP YOUR MIND? D: I think it's safe to say my head is not normal and I've officially broke MBTI.


Haha, I remember that feeling. Don't worry. Everyone breaks it at some point.



SheWolf said:


> Yeah, you taking a more academic approach to this is probably not the best way for my own brain to comprehend it. Ugh. Sometimes I wonder how I make it through life.


From the impressions of IxFPs I get, I thought it was you discovered unicorns and made millions.



SheWolf said:


> I think, honestly, with MBTI you just have to choose what one is your best fit. NONE of them are gonna fit like a glove and I think it's even safe to say two people of the same type are not going to be the same (especially if you study Enneagram along with MBTI)


Yeah. Everyone's going to bring their own flavor to a type. That's just how people roll.



SheWolf said:


> That would be like saying all INxJ's are like Hitler or Jesus Christ. Yeah... no.


Someone actually apparently wrote a proof saying that Jesus was an ENTP.



SheWolf said:


> And yeah, kinda why I created the thread, lol. I know I have to be IxFP. Se or Ne I'm not sure of. I lean more toward Se with an unusually vivid Ni. Because for example, when asked to theorize and abstract in my college classes stressed me out. My English 101 class was A LOT of deciphering the meanings of Henry David Thoreau's work and what our own interpretations of them were. It was... interesting, but overall I found it a bit irritating. I think for an Intuit, this would be heaven.
> Had the same instructor for Film Appreciation which was all about watching movies and discussing their themes, motives, meanings, archetypes, etc. This was a bit of a struggle for me whereas my ENxP friend excelled at it. Funny story, our final assignment was to watch a movie of our own choosing and discuss its themes or whatever in an essay. I did it, got like 86% on it. Some points were good and others obviously weren't. Well, said ENxP friend turned his in TWO DAYS late and got a 95%. I was very irritated. I was excellent at the quizzes where details of the films were called into question. Also remembering the different types of camera shots and whatever.


Yeah, all of this seems S to me. Like I said though, I wouldn't let the auxiliary both you too much; it really isn't that important to your personality on a practical level, and it's hard to distinguish, especially if you've been brought up in an environment that makes them more balanced.



SheWolf said:


> I am relieved to be in my biology classes where everything is a straight forward "yes or no"/"black and white" answer.


Ah, Western academia at its finest.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

KalimofDaybreak said:


> I did a little bit of research into enneagram, but I don't find it too helpful. At least, not as valuable as Jung's insights are.
> 
> The studies that have been done, thought not great, linked type 4s to both Ni and Fi as functions. So whatever that's worth.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I get that. Though I did just read something that said Type 9 ISFP's are going to be more in touch with their Ni than other ISFP's who score into other types as their lead, to the point where they erroneously think they're INFJ's or even identifying with their INFP cousins for the fact they are "dreamy." I'm rethinking being a lead Type 4, honestly. Because keeping the peace often outweighs my need for authenticity.

But as far as being dreamy...



KalimofDaybreak said:


> @reybridge and @SheWolf, imagination involves all of the functions. Intuition doesn't make a person more imaginative than the other, just more dreamy. But active imagination, when you're consciously dreaming up scenarios, is a process that involves the entire psyche.


I'm very dreamy. But, however, I think I am very much able to separate my dreaminess from reality. I think this is harder for Intuits. NF's are called the "Idealist" temperament for a reason, they live in their ideals and no aspect of reality is going to deter from that. I'm inclined to disbelieve some things simply because they're not "realistic" or practical. Aaanndd this is probably why Intuits and Sensors have falling outs at times.

Speaking of that, I grow tired of all the Sensor hate on the internet. Seriously. All I ever hear is "Sensors are stupid, not creative, boring, etc." I'll admit, when people started telling me that I'm probably a Sensor, I about cried because I know if I tell people that on the internet hate will manifest. It's a nasty side effect that has bred from MBTI that at times makes me wish it didn't exist in the first place. But then again, humans have a way of breeding negativity from ANY subject.

Everyone wants to be an Intuit because apparently that equals being smart and creative. Nah, brah. It doesn't. Same thing with Thinkers being less intelligent than Feelers. Nope. One of the stupidest people I've ever met was likely an INTP. The most intelligent person I know is my sister, ISFJ. Sometimes I really believe that she could "logic" an NT type into the ground.



KalimofDaybreak said:


> Well, Western society predisposes itself against any sort of spirituality, so don't take any 'proof' too seriously. Also, just in general, don't jump off of cliffs. I hear that causes cancer or something like that.


Oh no, I don't take any proof seriously, but rather was just presenting an impossible and imaginary scenario that if ever such evidence manifested itself, that would be my reaction.

And oh my God, that was hilarious. :laughing:



KalimofDaybreak said:


> Yeah, I can see how that breeds intuition. My own mother is an ISFJ, so very much in the same boat. Don't be too down on moms, though. They're pretty great.


As stated, I love my mother dearly and in my own way am attached to her hip; but c'mon, Ma, lighten up!



KalimofDaybreak said:


> I can see that. I have a sort of 'photographic' memory for the details I do remember, what few there are.


Well, you do have Se despite it being your last function. Se has a solid grip on reality no matter where it falls in the stack. Abstractions of experiences is in the realm of Si. Which is why, especially NP's, have a more "warped" and personalized version of their past. This is a bit strange to me, honestly. Going back to the ENFP that said her past was more like "an impression as to what she thought her childhood should be like" blew my mind. Now, I'm sure she doesn't think something absurd like she was raised by wolves or something. But still...
Now, I might recall a vague memory and think ".... did this actually happen or was it a dream I'm remembering?" but I don't question the memory's very existence like she claims to.

I take note of the difference between me and the INFP I know. He's very self-conscious of what goes into his body. He's vegan and strongly believes in being "wholesome." He has tried several times (to no avail) to get me to share this passion. It's not JUST health for him, but also some sort of spiritual rite to be a vegan. I'm a vegetarian, but that's more for moral than health (though the health benefits are a bonus.) It may be a stereotype, but I've heard that Si users can be pretty picky about what they do with their bodies. Me? Eh. "Not wanting to get fat" is about as far as I go with that and even then sometimes that flies out the window.
He's pretty persistent about converting me, believing that's what's best. But I can't be vegan. I'm sorry. Too many of my favorite foods are non-vegan. It's literally a matter of there's no way in hell that I'm living off a bland and strict diet. Nope. Not gonna happen. 

(Ooooh look at all the Fi stubbornness that text contains!)



KalimofDaybreak said:


> Yeah, all of this seems S to me. Like I said though, I wouldn't let the auxiliary both you too much; it really isn't that important to your personality on a practical level, and it's hard to distinguish, especially if you've been brought up in an environment that makes them more balanced.


.... but-but.... I wanna knoowwwwwwww *whines*

I kinda have to disagree. Someone awhile back told me that Lenore Thompson stated in one of her books that confidence and joy will come from indulging in your Auxiliary function (My ENTJ friend says this too.) Obviously Se and Ne are going to take different approaches to that. A lot of people have said that carefully developing your inferior function will make you more well-rounded and she disagreed strongly about that?


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

@KalimofDaybreak

This probably is NOT the way to correctly choose my type... but, uh, I'm going with ISFP. Why? Well... I do fit an _awful_ lot of Se stereotypes.

-Vain. (Seriously. If it's ugly, I'm not gonna wear it. I also like to be "trendy" while still adding my own style. EVERYTHING has to be aesthetically appealing to me. I don't do "Plain Jane." I catch myself looking in the mirror more often than I should and I always make sure my appearance is immaculate. Hard to admit to myself, but its true.)
-Competitive (I have a habit of turning everything into a competition, as I've been told... oops.)
-Impulsive to act (If I see something that captures my interest I'll ditch you before you know I'm gone. Also if I see something pretty I'm gonna buy it. Heheh...)

And honestly, I'm always aware of what's going on around me. You think I didn't see you do that/hear you say that? Ha. You're sorely mistaken.


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

SheWolf said:


> Day dreaming alone is not indicative of Ne. See and example of Ne-Si versus Se-Ni here
> 
> In which case, I'm a Se. I don't often see objects in such a philosophical manner. Never have.


 @KalimofDaybreak, do you think the author of that post in the link is describing Ne or Ni, especially in regard to the boulder example? They say it's Ne, but I'm not so sure.


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

mistakenforstranger said:


> @_KalimofDaybreak_, do you think the author of that post in the link is describing Ne or Ni, especially in regard to the boulder example? They say it's Ne, but I'm not so sure.


That's Ne, but from the perspective if an NFP. An NTP would go different directions. Actually, I am not sure that the Ne would even see the boulder until it ran into it. ;-) (yes, joke)

My wife, for instance, would think immediately about what kind of rock it is, where it might have come from, the geological structure of the area, and might even start looking around to further grasp that, etc. Actually, Ne has a lot of etceteras. ;-) Ask her five minutes later about the boulder, and she'd probably say, "What boulder?" 

A real life example of Ne in action. My wife got a purse for Christmas a while ago. She was looking inside, and noticed a pocket. She wondered if her iPad would fit. She got the iPad, stuck it in, zipped the pocket closed. Curiosity satisfied, she put the purse aside and started working on the next thing in her mind. Later in the day, she couldn't find her iPad. Finally, the next day, she struggled hard with her memory, and finally, walking through the previous day, remembered putting it in the purse. She is notorious for doing things like this. Worse, she puts milk in the cupboard, sugar in the fridge, etc. She's wonderful, but really has a hard time staying in reality. Once her mind gets going on something, it randomly works outward and upward, and far, far away from reality. 

Ooh! When we were in college together, I would meet her after class, and we'd start walking. I had great fun just letting her walk and talk, and see where we'd end up. I'd just let her "lead". After walking and talking for nearly ten minutes (or sometimes we'd be late to class because it was fun to see where she'd end up before she "woke up), she'd ask where we were and where we were going. ;-) She was always stoked coming out of lectures, because there was so much for her mind to go over, so she'd just talk and walk and talk and walk... 

My view of Ni is that, if an Ni noticed the boulder, that would see it as a problem to be solved that needs to be investigated deeply. For instance, what kind of rock is it. The Ni type would take that thought that my wife had, and decide to figure it out. And that'd be as far as Ni got in this case--one problem, one solution, and working it from every angle to come to that one solution. (sorry, but despite having two NF daughters, I actually do better envisioning NT types)


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## KalimofDaybreak (Aug 6, 2015)

SheWolf said:


> @KalimofDaybreak
> 
> This probably is NOT the way to correctly choose my type... but, uh, I'm going with ISFP. Why? Well... I do fit an _awful_ lot of Se stereotypes.
> 
> ...


Haha, there is not 'right' way to chose your type. Honestly, it really boils down to what makes sense to you. Like I said, only you can determine your type--most of my methods are all in the service of eliminating as much doubt as possible. If you like ISFP or you think it fits, then I see no reason to question that.


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## KalimofDaybreak (Aug 6, 2015)

mistakenforstranger said:


> @KalimofDaybreak, do you think the author of that post in the link is describing Ne or Ni, especially in regard to the boulder example? They say it's Ne, but I'm not so sure.


Neither am I. Jung speaks to a facet of Ni that is very concerned with the meaning of events. I think much of what the author said, at least at the beginning, could be applied to Ni as well, if not intuition as a whole, given the "from whence it comes and whither it goes" statement. Honestly, as I'm looking back over this, I don't think the author should have said that the intuition presented there was specifically Ne.

I think that people tend to forget that, despite Ni's introversion, it still pursues possibilities like Ne does, at least to some extent. It's just that the possibilities are internal, instead of external. So in that sense, you really can't give an example like the author of that article did, because an intuitive could think any of those things about the boulder for any number of reasons. Those possibilities could be either pushing the person outward or inward, which is really what matters. If I was forced to make a general rule, I'd have to go with the "meaning is inherent to the object" (Ne) versus "meaning is constructed in the mind" (Ni) distinction. I suspect that the author of that post is approaching the issue of the boulder with the former view already in mind, so he/she is just listing what they think is indeed inherent to the meaning of the boulder, but as an Ni-dom reading that, I was assuming the opposite was true.

Overall, though, I tend to not take FunkyMBTIFiction too seriously. They're a fun site, but I've never been terribly impressed with their understanding of the functions. They always seemed kind of shallow to me, especially with respect to the intuitive functions. Taking them seriously actually caused me a great deal of confusion about my own type in the past. My biggest critique, at least for Ni, is that they (like everyone else on the internet ) overemphasize the prophetic aspects of the function. Jung spent a few sentences on that in PT, and event then all that said was that INxJs _might_ do this. Frankly I think it's more within Ni's purview to totally disregard the external world and just focus on its own machinations (and therefore not make predictions about the world), in which case the example from before is moot.

So I think in that respect the author is probably describing Ne, but with the caveat that I think Ne tends to be attributed qualities rather common of both intuitions. Either way, I think the issue is more nuanced than how two types might look (or not look) at a boulder.


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

KalimofDaybreak said:


> I think that people tend to forget that, despite Ni's introversion, it still pursues possibilities like Ne does, at least to some extent. It's just that the possibilities are internal, instead of external. So in that sense, you really can't give an example like the author of that article did, because an intuitive could think any of those things about the boulder for any number of reasons. Those possibilities could be either pushing the person outward or inward, which is really what matters. If I was forced to make a general rule, I'd have to go with the "meaning is inherent to the object" (Ne) versus "meaning is constructed in the mind" (Ni) distinction. I suspect that the author of that post is approaching the issue of the boulder with the former view already in mind, so he/she is just listing what they think is indeed inherent to the meaning of the boulder, but as an Ni-dom reading that, I was assuming the opposite was true.


In my experience, Ne, like you said, looks at what is inherent in the object, while Ni looks at the subject. The big difference that I've observed, as I said, is that Ni seems to latch onto something and works it to death, while Ne is skipping off into the hills. Think Tom Bombadil vs. Gandalf. (the characters, not their types)


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

KalimofDaybreak said:


> mistakenforstranger said:
> 
> 
> > @KalimofDaybreak, do you think the author of that post in the link is describing Ne or Ni, especially in regard to the boulder example? They say it's Ne, but I'm not so sure.
> ...


Haha, yeah, she's helped me some. The author is on here, she chimed in on my ISFJ or INFJ thread. I won't tag her obviously, but she's helped me some. But I don't know, I've been questioning her. She literally says Intuitives aren't "good with the environment."
And I don't like how she presents Se. She explained Se as a near super power, being able to pick up on skills hands on "quickly with little prior training."
That's why I thought I have to be an Intuit. Despite the fact I actually DO have some body kinetic ability. Cognitive presence DOES NOT equal talent. That's somethings else. I talked to a confirmed Se user and she said it's more of having an objective view of objects. Taking object for what they are with no further processing. I believe that's more me. If I observe an interesting object, I'm admiring it's beauty. A flower for example. I want to touch it, smell it, absorb it's bright color with my eyes.
Like you've told me, it's a framework of the mind. Human intelligence and inborn skill are different beasts. Like.... Se users being great traditional artists naturally. Well, my ESTJ brother is a much better drawing artist than my ESFP sister. Art can come from anywhere. Some people even describe xSFP's art being the way that they live.

I've been taking too many people's word as law, which is why I've had so much confusion. Whenever I get some money, I'll be purchasing the books you recommend and go from there. 
There will always be people questioning your type I think. Because I think everyone is going to have some sort of different view of the functions. No one knows for sure.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

@KalimofDaybreak

I just took note of a behavior that might be useful. 

As I was letting my dog out this morning, I started just staring at the snow that was falling. Then, even closer, I looked at the snowflakes that landed on the glass. I studied their unique patterns intensely, marveling at how the just look lke tiny pieces of art. That lead to the thought "It's truly amazing how nature forms these beautiful patterns. No human artist can ever compare. There must be some sort of divine force at work to create these since no two snowflakes are ever quite the same."

I literally did this as a little girl, too, especially after learning about snowflakes in Science. I would spend forever looking at the patterns of the snowflakes and just vaguely wondering how something so intricate and pretty could possibly happen without the work of a human hand. I never stopped examining the details of the snowflakes, however.

Annnndddd soon enough I noticed my poor dog sitting at the door waiting to be let in, snow starting to build on her back and an impatient look in her eye. Good thing she's thick-furred and hearty! Still felt bad though.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

^that sounds Si as fuck to me. But maybe im wrong.


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## KalimofDaybreak (Aug 6, 2015)

SheWolf said:


> Yeah, I get that. Though I did just read something that said Type 9 ISFP's are going to be more in touch with their Ni than other ISFP's who score into other types as their lead, to the point where they erroneously think they're INFJ's or even identifying with their INFP cousins for the fact they are "dreamy." I'm rethinking being a lead Type 4, honestly. Because keeping the peace often outweighs my need for authenticity.


Part of the reason I realized I wasn't a lead 4 myself. I think just being feeling makes one more likely to be seen as 4.



SheWolf said:


> But as far as being dreamy...
> 
> I'm very dreamy. But, however, I think I am very much able to separate my dreaminess from reality. I think this is harder for Intuits. NF's are called the "Idealist" temperament for a reason, they live in their ideals and no aspect of reality is going to deter from that. I'm inclined to disbelieve some things simply because they're not "realistic" or practical. Aaanndd this is probably why Intuits and Sensors have falling outs at times.


Definitely. I joke sometimes that N actually means neurotic. Honestly, though, it really kind of does. Of course that's getting into how mental illness is entirely subjective based on the prevailing cultural norms...



SheWolf said:


> Speaking of that, I grow tired of all the Sensor hate on the internet. Seriously. All I ever hear is "Sensors are stupid, not creative, boring, etc." I'll admit, when people started telling me that I'm probably a Sensor, I about cried because I know if I tell people that on the internet hate will manifest. It's a nasty side effect that has bred from MBTI that at times makes me wish it didn't exist in the first place. But then again, humans have a way of breeding negativity from ANY subject.


Yeah. I've been reading up about slavery recently. It continues to amaze me that slavery actually happened. Just awful, all of it. As far as sensor-hate goes, I usually attribute that as backlash from the INxxs in the world find that they are actually valid people, so they naturally see that society is predominantly ESxx, and then their direct that pent-up frustration towards the sensors because our culture tends to be negative towards intuitives (except in academia). Personally, I love sensors, and I find sensation (Si in particular) fascinating, mostly because it is so different from how I see the world. Would I marry a sensor? That depends. I probably wouldn't if she was ESxP or ISxJ, just because S-dom/N-dom conflict would get so troublesome. When two people have opposite dominant functions (S-N or T-F), it's generally not great for a long-lasting relationship, at least from what I've seen, but I can't say I'm directly opposed to the idea. Honestly, it depends. There are a lot of other factors that go into relationships than type, which is why it amazes me that there is type bias. The types perpetuating it should know better.



SheWolf said:


> Everyone wants to be an Intuit because apparently that equals being smart and creative. Nah, brah. It doesn't. Same thing with Thinkers being less intelligent than Feelers. Nope. One of the stupidest people I've ever met was likely an INTP. The most intelligent person I know is my sister, ISFJ. Sometimes I really believe that she could "logic" an NT type into the ground.


I think this has to do with the notion that type is a set of skills or strengths as opposed to a perspective. Ideally, I would actually emphasize the negatives of a certain type so as to make that person aware of their own failings. But no, that would be unpopular, because heaven forbid someone actually realize that they're imperfect.



SheWolf said:


> Oh no, I don't take any proof seriously, but rather was just presenting an impossible and imaginary scenario that if ever such evidence manifested itself, that would be my reaction.


Gotcha.



SheWolf said:


> And oh my God, that was hilarious. :laughing:


Honestly, everything causes cancer these days. Kids don't get out enough.



SheWolf said:


> As stated, I love my mother dearly and in my own way am attached to her hip; but c'mon, Ma, lighten up!






SheWolf said:


> Well, you do have Se despite it being your last function. Se has a solid grip on reality no matter where it falls in the stack. Abstractions of experiences is in the realm of Si. Which is why, especially NP's, have a more "warped" and personalized version of their past. This is a bit strange to me, honestly. Going back to the ENFP that said her past was more like "an impression as to what she thought her childhood should be like" blew my mind. Now, I'm sure she doesn't think something absurd like she was raised by wolves or something. But still...
> Now, I might recall a vague memory and think ".... did this actually happen or was it a dream I'm remembering?" but I don't question the memory's very existence like she claims to.


That's actually a good point. I generally don't question my memories (which is frequently a bad thing, since there are times where I totally make up memories), and I don't normally consider that my memory might be warped in any way. I'll have to think about this more.



SheWolf said:


> I take note of the difference between me and the INFP I know. He's very self-conscious of what goes into his body. He's vegan and strongly believes in being "wholesome." He has tried several times (to no avail) to get me to share this passion. It's not JUST health for him, but also some sort of spiritual rite to be a vegan. I'm a vegetarian, but that's more for moral than health (though the health benefits are a bonus.) It may be a stereotype, but I've heard that Si users can be pretty picky about what they do with their bodies. Me? Eh. "Not wanting to get fat" is about as far as I go with that and even then sometimes that flies out the window.
> He's pretty persistent about converting me, believing that's what's best. But I can't be vegan. I'm sorry. Too many of my favorite foods are non-vegan. It's literally a matter of there's no way in hell that I'm living off a bland and strict diet. Nope. Not gonna happen.


I tried being vegetarian once. I stopped. Granted, it is probably objectively better not to consume meat (healthwise and just economically and socially). It's rather amazing that we even do it in the first place. That said, I still eat and enjoy meat. Why is that?

On the subject of Si and putting things into your body, I think that is the case. Theoretically correct or not, the xSxJs I know are unusually aware of their bodies, and I can see how that focus would cause them to be more careful about their bodies, although admittedly there's quite a lot of Fi in what your friend's approach.



SheWolf said:


> (Ooooh look at all the Fi stubbornness that text contains!)


Haha, yep.



SheWolf said:


> .... but-but.... I wanna knoowwwwwwww *whines*


Trust me, it's a battle every day to suppress that urge when it comes up.



SheWolf said:


> I kinda have to disagree. Someone awhile back told me that Lenore Thompson stated in one of her books that confidence and joy will come from indulging in your Auxiliary function (My ENTJ friend says this too.) Obviously Se and Ne are going to take different approaches to that. A lot of people have said that carefully developing your inferior function will make you more well-rounded and she disagreed strongly about that?


I should make my stance on this a little clearer. One thing I like about Socionics is the concept of the Driver and Creative roles for the dominant and auxiliary function. I think that was a good observation on their part. So yes, it is important to know to some extent. However, I think that most people are generally aware of what makes them happy, so I don't know that it's totally necessary to attribute that to a function or something like that. However, I can see where this view comes from, and I'm not against it.

I'll just say that, in most things, I look to Jung. Probably more than I should. My perspective is rooted in diagrams such as the one below. He is most consistent on the placement of the auxiliaries (Jung himself never uses the term tertiary, just the auxiliary of the dominant and the auxiliary of the inferior), the fact that they are relatively equal in strength, and that the attitudes are a bit hazy.









Function-centric writers like Thomson use a model for the functions that is different from what Jung presented (analysts still debate what that actually was) called the Harold Grant stack: Fi-Se-Ni-Te for ISFP. In Grant's stack, the attitudes (i/e) of the functions alternate, so in both the conscious and unconscious there is an extraverted and introverted function. Depending on who you ask, Jung's model would have been as follows for the ISFP: Fi-Se-Ne-Te, Fi-Si-Ne-Te, or Fi-Si-Ni-Te (this last one is based in the idea that the lower functions can be brought up to conscious awareness and therefore become the dominant attitude. Such a person would begin life with undifferentiated middle functions and slowly bring them up to consciousness). In short, none of them follow Grant's stack. There is a certain truth to Grant's functions that I myself have struggled with, but at this point I think that the following model might be the best: Fi-S-N-Te. This allows for the attitudes of the middle functions to be more fluid, thereby satisfying Jung and Grant. Thus, for me, the idea of satisfying the auxiliary is a bit vague.

Moreover, I myself get as much enjoyment (and perhaps more enjoyment) from using my thinking (which is frequently Ti) than my F (about half and half between I and E on this one). Either way, I much prefer it when both can be used together, which is why I spend my time on this forum either helping people learn typology or helping type them--it unites both the F and T aspects of my personality. I suspect that other types may have similar experiences, but I'm not one to judge that. I think that auxiliary development or relief is ultimately dependent on the individual.

As a counter point to those folks who think that developing the inferior directly is a good idea: tell me, when you use you Te, how does it turn out? Can you easily switch your mode of thought from the flowery fields of Fi to the dogmatic intensity of an ESTJ who wants that report on her desk _now_? I should think not, nor should I think that accessing Te in any direct manner is in any way beneficial for you when you do it. It's like two magnets held together at the same poles--neither one is willing to connect, and they would rather dive out of the way than touch the other. I see this very dynamic in myself when I try to focus on the sensory world. My mind will slip back into focusing back on the Ni stuff again much like the magnets slip past each other. Tt takes a lot of focus and concentration for me to actually just look at the details of someone's face for longer than a few seconds. Rarely is it pleasant. Accessing the inferior is like that--your mind will find ways to slip back into its dominant perspective, and holding it both against your will and is often painful. People who say you need to develop your inferior have the right idea, that developing a solid bridge between the dominant and inferior perspectives is the way to resolve psychic tension, but this cannot be done directly, only through the auxiliary functions. Te is so opposed to Fi in your psyche that the tension between the two cannot be resolved. Thus, we use sensation and intuition to reconcile the differences. Say that ENTJ friend of yours and you are having an argument. Both of you will try to maintain your dominant perspectives, Fi and Te, and the argument will essentially consist of you two talking past each other. For the conflict to be resolved, the issue must be taken out of the realm of feeling and thinking and brought into intuition and sensation. Say you're both going on a car trip and you really feel like he should pay for all of the gas, since you've brought a lot of the food and have lent the use of your vehicle. He's not going to respond to a feeling because that's illogical to him and you're not going to respond to his lists and lists of reasons why you should help with gas. Instead, you would need to put your feeling into the intuitive and sensing sphere: explain in practical terms why you feel that way, what things you've done that make you feel like he should pay for gas, and perhaps even explain how, when he goes on his long lists of all the reasons why he shouldn't have to pay, how that makes him seem dogmatic and stubborn to you. On his end, he would have to do the same--show you his reasons for why he thinks he shouldn't have to pay and explain how maybe he's in a tough financial spot and really needs to get away but can't pay, and maybe he even make a plan for compensating your later once he has the money.

This is the same tension between the dominant and inferior in anyone's mind (more specifically an IxFP's), so it should seem obvious how the two functions cannot be reconciled directly. Thus, to develop ones inferior perspective, the middle two functions must be developed. (And I have a theory that the reason people will say the auxiliary or tertiary function causes a person relief or is joyous is a result of the fact that they relieve tension between the dom and inf.)

Usually people talk about developing the inferior function because they simply don't realize how irreconcilable it is with the dominant function. They have the right idea, but you can't access the inferior directly--it is always unhealthy for you.


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## KalimofDaybreak (Aug 6, 2015)

SheWolf said:


> @KalimofDaybreak
> 
> I just took note of a behavior that might be useful.
> 
> ...


My guess would be Se. Sensation either way, but like I said in my previous post, I don't think the attitude of the aux really matters terribly much.


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## KalimofDaybreak (Aug 6, 2015)

ferroequinologist said:


> In my experience, Ne, like you said, looks at what is inherent in the object, while Ni looks at the subject. The big difference that I've observed, as I said, is that Ni seems to latch onto something and works it to death, while Ne is skipping off into the hills. Think Tom Bombadil vs. Gandalf. (the characters, not their types)


I agree that we tend to latch on to things. I just hesitate to call that Ni specifically because that's a quality of introversion in general, I think.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

karmachameleon said:


> ^that sounds Si as fuck to me. But maybe im wrong.


As @KalimofDaybreak mentioned from Jung's book, Se and Si are actually the same function, but their attentions/energy draws different ways. Introverted Sensing inward, Extroverted Sensing outward. Which explains why someone who uses Se may also test with some Si and vice versa. I am not a Si. Because then I would have to use Fe or Te. I'm a definite Fi-user, so that would mean ISTJ. However, my Te SUCKS. Seriously. Don't ask me to plan anything. Nope. Never. My Fi is always apparent, always dominant.

And Si in the INFP does not behave the same way as it does in a Si-dom.

Si is going to be apparent in a lot of people through online interaction.


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

KalimofDaybreak said:


> Neither am I. Jung speaks to a facet of Ni that is very concerned with the meaning of events. I think much of what the author said, at least at the beginning, could be applied to Ni as well, if not intuition as a whole, given the "from whence it comes and whither it goes" statement. Honestly, as I'm looking back over this, I don't think the author should have said that the intuition presented there was specifically Ne.
> 
> I think that people tend to forget that, despite Ni's introversion, it still pursues possibilities like Ne does, at least to some extent. It's just that the possibilities are internal, instead of external. So in that sense, you really can't give an example like the author of that article did, because an intuitive could think any of those things about the boulder for any number of reasons. Those possibilities could be either pushing the person outward or inward, which is really what matters. *If I was forced to make a general rule, I'd have to go with the "meaning is inherent to the object" (Ne) versus "meaning is constructed in the mind" (Ni) distinction.* I suspect that the author of that post is approaching the issue of the boulder with the former view already in mind, so he/she is just listing what they think is indeed inherent to the meaning of the boulder, but as an Ni-dom reading that, I was assuming the opposite was true.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your detailed response. Yeah, I think it could be any form of intuition. It was more the focus on what the object represented that seemed Ni to me. I would think Ne would be a little more playful and interactive with the external environment, but I like the distinction you made.

As far as the prophetic quality of Ni, I've seen plenty of Si-doms "predict" the future because they know what has happened in the past, and since events tend to repeat themselves, their predictions happen more often than not. Ne-doms also have a sense of knowing what's just around the corner, and can see what new possibilities will emerge in the future, which they might then capitalize on. If Ni-doms predict, they might not even realize they have, because "The Future" is such a part of their internal framework. So really, they're merely describing the patterns they see.



SheWolf said:


> I talked to a confirmed Se user and she said it's more of having an objective view of objects. Taking object for what they are with no further processing. I believe that's more me. If I observe an interesting object, I'm admiring it's beauty. A flower for example. I want to touch it, smell it, absorb it's bright color with my eyes.


Yeah, that's what I would consider Se.


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

KalimofDaybreak said:


> I agree that we tend to latch on to things. I just hesitate to call that Ni specifically because that's a quality of introversion in general, I think.


Yes, but it's a quality of the orientation of the functions as well, IMO. In other words, it's part of what distinguishes all the introverted from their extraverted counterparts. Fi is intensive, Fe extensive, and so forth...


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## KalimofDaybreak (Aug 6, 2015)

mistakenforstranger said:


> Thanks for your detailed response. Yeah, I think it could be any form of intuition. It was more the focus on what the object represented that seemed Ni to me. I would think Ne would be a little more playful and interactive with the external environment, but I like the distinction you made.


Yeah, I think Ne can be a lot like Se in this respect, just interacting with the world and whatnot.



mistakenforstranger said:


> As far as the prophetic quality of Ni, I've seen plenty of Si-doms "predict" the future because they know what has happened in the past, and since events tend to repeat themselves, their predictions happen more often than not. Ne-doms also have a sense of knowing what's just around the corner, and can see what new possibilities will emerge in the future, which they might then capitalize on. If Ni-doms predict, they might not even realize they have, because "The Future" is such a part of their internal framework. So really, they're merely describing the patterns they see.


I would agree with this. I think this part of Ni is only really special from the outside looking in. Which would make sense, considering that very few people are actually Ni-doms and probably don't really get it.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

KalimofDaybreak said:


> When two people have opposite dominant functions (S-N or T-F), it's generally not great for a long-lasting relationship, at least from what I've seen, but I can't say I'm directly opposed to the idea. Honestly, it depends. There are a lot of other factors that go into relationships than type, which is why it amazes me that there is type bias. The types perpetuating it should know better.


Yeeaahhhh, I don't see me ever being able to keep my cool with a Te-dom holding a position as close as a significant other. Strangely, however, this isn't how my ENTJ friend views it. *awkward cough* Goes back to how Jung said that Fi-dom women have a habit of attracting Extroverted men. They're drawn to me like moths to a flame. I haven't the faintest clue as to why. I think it's that I'm somehow an enigma to them? I've even been so bold as to ask. Usually they list some admirable personality traits but I can tell they struggle themselves to know exactly _why._
I've actually not had a lot of luck with introverted men. The only man I've ever been truly serious about was an introvert, BUT... there were so many complications. He was even more withdrawn than me. I seemed like an extrovert compared to him. He never wanted to go anywhere or do anything. When I DID manage to coax him out, he didn't speak much. Very shy. I was more "daring" socially than he was. And that's REALLY saying something. Haha. Thinking on it, I wonder if our types had something to do with it? But, there were different issues too. I was very unconventional compared to him interest-wise. Everything I was interested in, he found boring or even "stupid." We argued all the time. Wasn't pleasant.



KalimofDaybreak said:


> Theoretically correct or not, the xSxJs I know are unusually aware of their bodies


How so, if you don't mind my asking?



KalimofDaybreak said:


> Depending on who you ask, Jung's model would have been as follows for the ISFP: Fi-Se-Ne-Te, Fi-Si-Ne-Te, or Fi-Si-Ni-Te (this last one is based in the idea that the lower functions can be brought up to conscious awareness and therefore become the dominant attitude. Such a person would begin life with undifferentiated middle functions and slowly bring them up to consciousness)


Well, that's certainly intriguing. I know that Jung didn't have the whole P and J thing going on and that was Myers-Brigg's idea. Does this have something to do with that?



KalimofDaybreak said:


> Moreover, I myself get as much enjoyment (and perhaps more enjoyment) from using my thinking (which is frequently Ti) than my F (about half and half between I and E on this one). Either way, I much prefer it when both can be used together, which is why I spend my time on this forum either helping people learn typology or helping type them--it unites both the F and T aspects of my personality. I suspect that other types may have similar experiences, but I'm not one to judge that. I think that auxiliary development or relief is ultimately dependent on the individual.


Yes, that would make sense. Do you think that what you find enjoyment and relief in does have something to do with type, however? I think surely it should to some degree. An IxFP is NOT going to enjoy talking strict business plans in a stuffy conference room somewhere, talking about impersonal data.



KalimofDaybreak said:


> Can you easily switch your mode of thought from the flowery fields of Fi to the dogmatic intensity of an ESTJ who wants that report on her desk now?


Hey! My mind isn't full of flowery fields!
.... Well maybe some. Like, a pot of flowers.
Or a small garden.
..... Ah who am I kidding? There's probably a unicorn and a rainbow in that field, too.



KalimofDaybreak said:


> I would agree with this. I think this part of Ni is only really special from the outside looking in. Which would make sense, considering that very few people are actually Ni-doms and probably don't really get it.


I can't help but involuntarily roll my eyes when people say they are an INxJ. Most aren't actual Ni-doms, as I've observed pretty readily.

I can't help but chuckle at this post that showed up on my Tumblr dashboard. 

By the way, I've noted that Tumblr is very INFP-heavy. Lots of feels, debating about society, bringing up issues about things most people wouldn't notce... it can be very irritating to me sometimes. I don't spend much time dedicated to my blog and I hardly ever post anything of my OWN. It's fun to look at things that pertain to my interests and decorating the appearance of my blog, but that's about it.
It's true though, especially on the Internet, everyone claims to be an Intuit.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

@KalimofDaybreak

By the way, do you have opinions on "looping?" I've never seen it actually happen in a person.

I know "in the grip" experiences, when you start relying on your inferior functions usually due to stress and it causes you to behave very uncharacteristically and unhealthily. Kinda should be obvious I have Inferior Te. Under stress I kinda do the whole "MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY" sort of thing and dig my heels into the ground.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

Imo you seem like you use Ne Si, like when you answer a question you can write super long answers and then youre like, oh that reminds me, this time i did this and....



> I just took note of a behavior that might be useful.
> 
> As I was letting my dog out this morning, I started just staring at the snow that was falling. Then, even closer, I looked at the snowflakes that landed on the glass. I studied their unique patterns intensely, marveling at how the just look lke tiny pieces of art. That lead to the thought "It's truly amazing how nature forms these beautiful patterns. No human artist can ever compare. There must be some sort of divine force at work to create these since no two snowflakes are ever quite the same."
> 
> ...


Being interested how things work (Ti)


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## soseductive (Jan 5, 2016)

The Myers & Briggs Foundation - Sensing or Intuition


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

karmachameleon said:


> Imo you seem like you use Ne Si, like when you answer a question you can write super long answers and then youre like, oh that reminds me, this time i did this and....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know you're trying to help, but I'm telling you, I'm no ISxJ. I thought for a long time I was ISFJ. But I interacted with ISFJ's and I even live with one. We are SO different. Very different.
Sensors are always gonna talk about their experiences, but rather, it's more about HOW they talk about them. Si's tend to "relive" their memories in bright images and a flood of feeling. Otherwise known as.... "Nostalgia." That doesn't happen to me. I see it in my Mom and sister all the time though. When they talk about their experiences, their eyes get intense and emotion wells up on their face (Fe and Si)
I don't do that. My memories are clear, but, I state them more as facts than intense feelings. For example, I have a memory of being dragged by my shirt by an overly playful puppy as a little girl. It was scary for me at the time. A Si would remember that fear and it would spark up when they spoke about it as well as images. Nope. Sensors, whether Se or Si, care about building memories and experiences, but Si will always value and absorb their experiences just a touch more. Me, I'm always wanting to move from one experience to the next and don't dwell on them much. That's Se. (Ne is more jumping between concepts and ideas within the external world.)
Look at what Kalim quoted according to Jung, the auxiliary and tertiary functions are more "fluid."
Which is why, for example, when I tested truthfully with my sister Si and Se were higher. Because Se and Si are technically the same function.
My Ne, however, was nonexistent. Ni was a bit over average. Ti was also nonexistent.
I think wanting to know "how things work" is more a Feeling interest for me than an actual logical one. I want to understand the world so I can relate to it. My sister, ISFJ, is interested in how things work just for the knowledge and then later she likes to use her knowledge to help. Fe-Ti. When I do crave knowledge, it's more or less for my personal benefit. But overall, hard knowledge isn't my interest. Knowledge about the mysterious and magical, however, comes from my Ni. I want to actually EXPERIENCE this mysery though, and I believe that's Se. Ne is happy theorizing the mysterious and whatever, but the actual thought of experiencing it isn't as appealing.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

karmachameleon said:


> Imo you seem like you use Ne Si, like when you answer a question you can write super long answers and then youre like, oh that reminds me, this time i did this and....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Also, go watch Regina Spektor's interview about her beliefs and religion. Now that, that is Fi-Ne-Si at work right there.
Jeff Goldblum is an excellent example of Ne-Ti-Fe. Haha.
Adam Levine, ISFP.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

SheWolf said:


> Also, go watch Regina Spektor's interview about her beliefs and religion. Now that, that is Fi-Ne-Si at work right there.
> Jeff Goldblum is an excellent example of Ne-Ti-Fe. Haha.
> Adam Levine, ISFP.


Okay, I've watched that Regina Spektor video and she seems like an ISFJ to me, whats fi-ne-si about it?
Pretty sure Adam is an extrovert... where do you get these typings from?


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

karmachameleon said:


> SheWolf said:
> 
> 
> > Also, go watch Regina Spektor's interview about her beliefs and religion. Now that, that is Fi-Ne-Si at work right there.
> ...


Nope. She talks about her religion and ideas in an open-ended way and doesn't feel comfortable choosing one. That is Ne at its finest. Not wanting to choose a concept or an idea and when asked what's most important to her: "Freedom."
Freedom to live and learn and believe as you wish. That screams Ne. Her beliefs are her own, not defined by anything she's been taught in the past or anything someone has said to her. That eliminates Si-Fe. 
Listen to Regina's music. Like... Samson. Fi-Ne-Si, she's abstracting what a past situation means to her:

"Samson went back to bed
Not much hair left on his head
He ate a slice of wonder bread and went right back to bed
And history books forgot about us and the bible didn't mention us
And the bible didn't mention us, not even once."

Abstract. It's clear she's talking about a past relationship, BUT there's a lot of abstraction about it.

Look at Taylor Swift's music, ESFJ. Loooottsss of talking about her feelings and past relationships and there's no ambiguous lyrics. Fe-Si. 
Take her song Trouble's lyrics:

"Cause I knew you were trouble when you walked in
So shame on me now
I Flew me to places I'd never been
Till you put me down oh
I knew you were trouble when you walked in
So shame on me now."

Compare it to Regina's, both of whom were talking about a past relationship. No debating about how Taylor feels about what happened. Nope. Regina? Not so much.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

SheWolf said:


> Nope. She talks about her religion and ideas in an open-ended way and doesn't feel comfortable choosing one. That is Ne at its finest. Not wanting to choose a concept or an idea and when asked what's most important to her: "Freedom."
> Freedom to live and learn and believe as you wish. That screams Ne. Her beliefs are her own, not defined by anything she's been taught in the past or anything someone has said to her. That eliminates Si-Fe.
> Listen to Regina's music. Like... Samson. Fi-Ne-Si, she's abstracting what a past situation means to her:
> 
> ...


Being indecisive and not wanting to choose a concept is because she doesn't want to label herself because her opinion changes everyday. I don't see how that's Ne. More like not sure of her morals/values like an Fi dom or auxilliary would be. Saying that non-believers and believers should just "let eachother be" and don't fight, have tolerance for eachother etc is very SiFe; making sure the environment is a comfortable place, harmony. She tries hard to avoid conflict and makes it very clear that neither belief and nonbelief is better or worse than the other. Just overall she's very ISFJ to me at least.

I don't think lyrics are a very good way to type someone but, her lyrics are pretty Si to me. An ISFJ can write abstract lyrics lol... actually they're probably more inclined to than Se-Ni users like Taylor Swift probably is. If we're gonna go by lyrics Taylor swift is clearly an Se user, very concrete.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Unpopular opinion, but I think the OP is an ESFJ.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Entropic said:


> Unpopular opinion, but I think the OP is an ESFJ.



Not really. The last thing I am is a Fe dominant. If you can prove to me that I show actual Fe through educated comparison of cognitive functions, I'll consider it. 

For example, when emotionally charged situations arise, I literally bolt. LITERALLY. Fi is about have intense personal feelings that it must sort out ALONE. I am constantly emotional and feel things intensively, rather than extensively/broadly like Fe's do. There is NEVER a moment when I'm "emotionally void."

Fe's gather emotions from others and when no one is around to get these feelings of, they feel rather "empty."
This is not me. I'm emotional 24/7. Every person that I have spoken to who has a lot of knowledge over MBTI, including @KalimofDaybreak, has never questioned my Fi. I was raised by two Fe-users and I am nothing like them.

You ask anyone close to me, and they'll tell me how private and withdrawn I am with my actual emotions. I drive my Fe-using sister and mother CRAZY because of this. My mom is an ESFJ, and let me tell you, we are polar opposites. We get under each other's skin SO much it's not even funny. I don't know how to relate to her and she doesn't know how to relate to me, either. I seem like I have NO emotions to my ISFJ sister, just because I do not show them publicly like she does, but I have A LOT of emotion. I've been told by SO many people how I tend to come off as cold and blunt, which Fi-dom and Te-inferior tends to be guilty of.

I have my answer, pretty much, and more or less this has turned into a discussion of functions more than just trying to type me.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

SheWolf said:


> Not really. The last thing I am is a Fe dominant. If you can prove to me that I show actual Fe through educated comparison of cognitive functions, I'll consider it.
> 
> For example, when emotionally charged situations arise, I literally bolt. LITERALLY. Fi is about have intense personal feelings that it must sort out ALONE. I am constantly emotional and feel things intensively, rather than extensively/broadly like Fe's do. There is NEVER a moment when I'm "emotionally void."


This is not what Fi is, though, and what you describe is actually more accurate for Fe than Fi. 



> Fe's gather emotions from others and when no one is around to get these feelings of, they feel rather "empty."
> This is not me. I'm emotional 24/7. Every person that I have spoken to who has a lot of knowledge over MBTI, including @KalimofDaybreak, has never questioned my Fi. I was raised by two Fe-users and I am nothing like them.


This is not what Fe is either, imo. This, and by that I mean what you wrote as in not what you try to describe, but _how_ you describe it, is also a great example of Fe reasoning, lol. 



> You ask anyone close to me, and they'll tell me how private and withdrawn I am with my actual emotions. I drive my Fe-using sister and mother CRAZY because of this. My mom is an ESFJ, and let me tell you, we are polar opposites. We get under each other's skin SO much it's not even funny. I don't know how to relate to her and she doesn't know how to relate to me, either. I seem like I have NO emotions to my ISFJ sister, just because I do not show them publicly like she does, but I have A LOT of emotion. I've been told by SO many people how I tend to come off as cold and blunt, which Fi-dom and Te-inferior tends to be guilty of.
> 
> I have my answer, pretty much, and more or less this has turned into a discussion of functions more than just trying to type me.


None of those things suggest Fe vs Fi either. The thing about Fe vs Fi is really more modes of expression; you do not express yourself via Fi. If you're not an Fe dom, you're a Ti dom. 

Also, you are aware that in order to type someone, you first need to define how you are going to type them as in, defining the functions, right? I have the impression that you write that you are unemotional because you think Fi is externally unemotional. However, if one actually observes how you express yourself, you are anything but unemotional in the Fi style of being so. All you focus on is how to emotionally express yourself.

Your biggest issue is your need to emotionally relate to a thing, to the point it entirely blinds you from your own inner reality despite claiming otherwise, lol. It's so typical of Fe doms as well, really.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Entropic said:


> This is not what Fe is either, imo. This, and by that I mean what you wrote as in not what you try to describe, but _how_ you describe it, is also a great example of Fe reasoning, lol.


_"In your opinion."_
Give me a source, be that a book or someone who is a confirmed Fe-user, that tells me what Fe is and how it correlates with what I've said. I don't take personal opinions on this matter.



Entropic said:


> None of those things suggest Fe vs Fi either. The thing about Fe vs Fi is really more modes of expression; you do not express yourself via Fi. If you're not an Fe dom, you're a Ti dom.


Show me, then, how I've used Ti with proper sources to back up the statements.



Entropic said:


> Also, you are aware that in order to type someone, you first need to define how you are going to type them as in, defining the functions, right? I have the impression that you write that you are unemotional because you think Fi is externally unemotional. However, if one actually observes how you express yourself, you are anything but unemotional in the Fi style of being so. All you focus on is how to emotionally express yourself.


All you've given me is your definitions of the functions. Sorry, that's not a credible source. The only way someone has been able to get me to take what they say seriously is by showing me credible proof. Do that and I will GLADLY be willing to listen and consider what you have to say.

Think what you want. If I'm your representation of Fe in your head, more power to you, but I know if I told some people I was a Fe-dominant they'd either give me a strange look or laugh. I've read descriptions of Fe from books to my sister, who knows me best, and she looked me dead in the eyes and said, "that's the last thing you are." As I read it myself, I thought that too.

I KNOW what I do. I KNOW what I don't do. I KNOW who I am in this sense. I KNOW how I interact with people of different types. I 



Entropic said:


> Your biggest issue is your need to emotionally relate to a thing, to the point it entirely blinds you from your own inner reality despite claiming otherwise, lol. It's so typical of Fe doms as well, really.


Incorrect. This is a Feeling thing IN GENERAL.
Fe-doms and Fi-doms are going to do the same thing when it comes to this. Their stack puts their feeling functions AHEAD of all their others. The other functions behind it will ultimately get ruled out by Feeling thoughts/decisions.
The only way I've considered being Fe is if I was a Fe inferior.

I get told I'm 50 different types from many different people in MANY different place. I've been into MBTI for at least two years now. I've heard others tell me that I'm anywhere from INFJ, ENFJ, ISFJ, ESFJ, INFP, ISFP, INTP, ISTP, INTJ, ISTJ.... I even have an ENTJ friend who's been studying MBTI for quite awhile now SWEAR I'm an INTJ, but I know I'm not.

The only types that I haven't been told I am is ExTx. 

But, as I've been told by many credible people, only _I_ can ultimately determine my type. _No one_ knows how exactly my mind works like I do. They can only take a guess. Therefore, I will be purchasing the books recommended to me, including Carl Jung's, and go from there on my own. It's the only way I'll have a clear answer. People will ALWAYS have their piece to say about one another's types, but this is something that you just have to pick your best fit. I know ESFJ doesn't fit me, because I know how I think. We'll see.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

It kind of amazes me how people that are only into mbti dont really know shit about the functions, but people that are into socionics seem to know more and more people agree

I think buying a book to know youe mbti type is a waste of money and time, theres lots of information on the internet. How come you trusr Kalimofdaybreak or whatever but not Entropic?


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

karmachameleon said:


> I think buying a book to know youe mbti type is a waste of money and time, theres lots of information on the internet. How come you trusr Kalimofdaybreak or whatever but not Entropic?


You think that buying a book written by the CREATOR of MBTI is a waste of time? You're part of the problem, then.

Kalim has given me valid information from credible sources, namely Jung's own book. Whereas, he has only give his opinions as a source. That's not valid.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

SheWolf said:


> You think that buying a book written by the CREATOR of MBTI is a waste of time? You're part of the problem, then.
> 
> Kalim has given me valid information from credible sources, namely Jung's own book. Whereas, he has only give his opinions as a source. That's not valid.


Yeah. The creator of mbti? I dont think either of them even had a psychology degree and The functions in mbti are described differently than Jung actually described them as. If youre gonna buy a Jung book then you could probably find it online for free.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

karmachameleon said:


> Yeah. The creator of mbti? I dont think either of them even had a psychology degree and The functions in mbti are described differently than Jung actually described them as. If youre gonna buy a Jung book then you could probably find it online for free.


..... I don't even know how to respond to any of this. Really, I don't. You're being contradictory. We wouldn't have MBTI without Jung. Do you have a "Dr." in front of your name? Have you even read or even looked at Jung's book? Or has all of your knowledge come from "the Internet?" I don't expect someone to have REAL knowledge on anything without PROPER study. You can't become a professor or a doctor from reading some crap on the internet. You have to go to school and... *gasp* READ BOOKS! NEVER have I walked into a college class (or any class for that matter) and had the instructor say, "We don't need books! We're going to use random internet information to learn!"

You go to someone and talk about all that you think you know and they ask you where you learned that and you tell them "internet", you're gonna get laughed at and people won't take you seriously.

I'm probably going to be adding you to the ignore list. So, really, there's no point in trying to argue with me because I won't see your statements.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

SheWolf said:


> ..... I don't even know how to respond to any of this. Really, I don't. You're being contradictory. We wouldn't have MBTI without Jung. Do you have a "Dr." in front of your name? Have you even read or even looked at Jung's book? Or has all of your knowledge come from "the Internet?" I don't expect someone to have REAL knowledge on anything without PROPER study. You can't become a professor or a doctor from reading some crap on the internet. You have to go to school and... *gasp* READ BOOKS! NEVER have I walked into a college class (or any class for that manner) and had the instructor say, "We don't need books! We're going to use random internet information to learn!"
> 
> You go to someone and talk about all that you think you know and they ask you where you learned that and you tell them "internet", you're gonna get laughed at and people won't take you seriously.
> 
> I'm probably going to be adding you to the ignore list. So, really, there's no point in trying to argue with me because I won't see your statements.


Jung wasnt the creator of MBTI. Two people in the 1900s took his concept and changed it and turned it into a test that was originally gonna help people with their job i think. Youre taking this mbti thing waaay too seriously and it seems like you only want to figure out whay your type is so you can identify with something and then drop it. What era do you live in btw? The internet is our biggest source of information. And yeah, you can find books on the internet.


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## KalimofDaybreak (Aug 6, 2015)

SheWolf said:


> Yeeaahhhh, I don't see me ever being able to keep my cool with a Te-dom holding a position as close as a significant other. Strangely, however, this isn't how my ENTJ friend views it. *awkward cough* Goes back to how Jung said that Fi-dom women have a habit of attracting Extroverted men. They're drawn to me like moths to a flame. I haven't the faintest clue as to why. I think it's that I'm somehow an enigma to them? I've even been so bold as to ask. Usually they list some admirable personality traits but I can tell they struggle themselves to know exactly _why._
> I've actually not had a lot of luck with introverted men. The only man I've ever been truly serious about was an introvert, BUT... there were so many complications. He was even more withdrawn than me. I seemed like an extrovert compared to him. He never wanted to go anywhere or do anything. When I DID manage to coax him out, he didn't speak much. Very shy. I was more "daring" socially than he was. And that's REALLY saying something. Haha. Thinking on it, I wonder if our types had something to do with it? But, there were different issues too. I was very unconventional compared to him interest-wise. Everything I was interested in, he found boring or even "stupid." We argued all the time. Wasn't pleasant.


Jung told a story to illustrate intuition once. He saw two patients, a sensing man and an intuitive woman. He said something along the lines of "and of course they were attracted to each other." As a superficial reading, it seems that the same principle applied here: your dominant F attracted a T dom and vice versa. Humans have a strange way of doing that, I'm not entirely sure why. I know that I have an unusual tendency to be attracted to ESFJs (at least that's how I type them based on their behavior), which might make some sense, given how much Ti I have in my personality. Who knows?



SheWolf said:


> How so, if you don't mind my asking?


I don't mind. Frankly, I'm not entirely sure. I'm going mostly off of my mother here, and she's just seems very sensitive to her internal physical experience. I'm assuming this is mostly self-contained (not really concerned with where her body is relative to other objects), but like I said, she's just weirdly aware of what's going on inside her. She'd know if she was getting sick much earlier than me, for instance.



SheWolf said:


> Well, that's certainly intriguing. I know that Jung didn't have the whole P and J thing going on and that was Myers-Brigg's idea. Does this have something to do with that?


Sort of? Myers, when she created her original function stack, just used the i-e-e-e model Jung proposed, probably because that's the only one he expressly stated (the others are extrapolated from his writing; he never actually mentions them directly). In her system, J means that the most dominant extraverted function would be rational (F or T, which later became known as judging, which was a mistake in my opinion), and if P, then the most dominant extraverted function would be irrational (S or N, later became known as the perceiving functions, like I said, I think that was a mistake). So yes, it is partially due to the fact that Jung didn't have J/P, but as I will explain, there's no real reason why he couldn't have had that in his system...these two ideas: function order and J/P, in my opinion, are just incompatible, so asking if the function stack is different because of J/P to me is like asking if the sun is hot because it rains.

I personally don't see much value in the J/P letter beyond the practical scope (which is what Myers was going for), because in terms of the theory, it just doesn't mean anything. Judging and perceiving were aspects of personality that Myers' mother, Katherine Briggs, noticed in her work. When Myers started working on her system, I assume she used her mother's idea because it fit with the original intent of the MBTI. On the theoretical side of things, however, J/P really doesn't mean much in terms of how you think. There might be some correlation, but nothing as elemental as the function dichotomies are. Most likely, dominant rationals would more likely score as J and dominant irrationals would likely score as P. However, that's a bit of a problem in the case of introverts, because, as you have likely already realized, the dominant function of IxxPs is rational, and IxxJs' is irrational. At least for introverts, I find that the final letter is entirely irrelevant for determining function order; I initially scored as INFP on the test, but most people can fairly readily tell that I'm not an Fi-dom. The issue is that J/P goes against the core nature of Jung's work, which is to describe the mental perspectives through which people view the world. Whether or not one is scheduled or improvising is really irrelevant to that. I see J/P as sort of an extraneous dichotomy in this respect, much like I/E. The only difference is that I/E is a fundamental psychic orientation, and J/P is mostly behavior, which is also incompatible with Jung's cognitive psychology. My other issue is that because J/P is not rooted in a state of mind, it is _incredibly_ hard for dichotomy-centric websites that completely omit the functions to make any meaningful distinction between what should essentially be the same time (like INFJ and INFP) because on the surface these types seem so similar. Seriously, read the descriptions on something like Truity or 16Personalities. The difference between the INFJ and INFP descriptions is literally just that INFJs are scheduled and get things done, and INFPs don't. The difference between J and P seems to have become so shallow that all it means is 'self-disciplined' or 'not self-disciplined'. And that's my biggest problem with these letters: a P can learn to keep a schedule, a J can learn to be flexible. You can't change whether or not you're an introvert or an extravert, and it's very hard to change the functions (though not impossible). From where I'm standing, I don't see that there's much value in the J/P for the theory side of things. I don't pay it much mind.



SheWolf said:


> Yes, that would make sense. Do you think that what you find enjoyment and relief in does have something to do with type, however? I think surely it should to some degree. An IxFP is NOT going to enjoy talking strict business plans in a stuffy conference room somewhere, talking about impersonal data.


Oh definitely. I hate parties and dancing and loud noise and basically anything that college freshman do. I once had a long discussion with an xNFP friend of mine about how I don't have fun. I say this because my definition of 'fun'--philosophy, writing music or words, thinking about typology or other things that interest me (I'm the kind of guy who does music theory in his head when I'm bored)--is so different from what culture at large says is fun (Se). I can enjoy those things on a visceral level, but I don't like myself when I do them because it brings out that repressed, immature side of me, and for some reason I always feel sick after parties. Don't know why. In any case, yes, I definitely think type has something to do with it. You'll notice that all of the things I listed that I do for fun involve a rational function in some way, though, so I definitely think that relaxation is mostly triggered by the auxiliary and tertiary.



SheWolf said:


> Hey! My mind isn't full of flowery fields!
> .... Well maybe some. Like, a pot of flowers.
> Or a small garden.
> ..... Ah who am I kidding? There's probably a unicorn and a rainbow in that field, too.


 Like I said, I'm pretty sure that IxFPs make millions off of discovering magical creatures.



SheWolf said:


> I can't help but involuntarily roll my eyes when people say they are an INxJ. Most aren't actual Ni-doms, as I've observed pretty readily.


It's fairly easy to tell when some is not authentically Ni. It's hard to pin down, but I think that the image of a middle-aged professor blowing off a dusty old tome describes it well. Of course the professor is dressed in tweed and brown. There's an almost endearing old-fashionedness to them that they themselves seem to be aware of, but then there's a strange air of perception about them, that they are acutely aware of the why things happen and are always searching for the true meaning behind the world. Usually they're wise beyond their years (this is usually what gives a mistyped INxJ away), definite old souls in the sense of the word. The more well-rounded ones seem to have a rather playful disposition behind this visage of quite wisdom, that they have somehow managed to unify their inner child with their older minds.

Well now that was just poetic. Curse my feeling.



SheWolf said:


> I can't help but chuckle at this post that showed up on my Tumblr dashboard.


I laughed out loud. I swear, so many INxJs are just abstract ISxJs, which is ironic, since abstraction is generally associated with introversion as opposed to intuition.



SheWolf said:


> By the way, I've noted that Tumblr is very INFP-heavy. Lots of feels, debating about society, bringing up issues about things most people wouldn't notce... it can be very irritating to me sometimes. I don't spend much time dedicated to my blog and I hardly ever post anything of my OWN. It's fun to look at things that pertain to my interests and decorating the appearance of my blog, but that's about it.


I don't have a tumblr, so I'll take your word on this. I find that when there's a lot of Fi being thrown around (I took a discourse class one time where I swear everyone was IxFP, including the professor. On a a side note for this side note, I don't do well with xNxP professors, especially xNFPs, which I find interesting) I tend to just back away. Which now that I think about it, is probably why I don't have a tumblr.



SheWolf said:


> It's true though, especially on the Internet, everyone claims to be an Intuit.


Which, considering that more than 70% of people are sensors, should strike the thinking individual as odd...



SheWolf said:


> @KalimofDaybreak
> 
> By the way, do you have opinions on "looping?" I've never seen it actually happen in a person.


My reaction to looping is about that of my reaction to J/P, which is to say, a resounding 'eh'. I don't think that one needs to attribute the issues commonly associated with looping to a function trick; it would be a lot easier to say that "extreme introverts are neurotic and extreme extraverts are schizophrenic" because that's all it really needs to be. I get what looping is going for, but I find that the idea is unnecessary. Besides, in the Jungian model, the extreme introvert is actually the i-e-e-e function model, since the non-dominant functions must be pushed into the unconscious to compensate for the overwhelming and unhealthy strength of the dominant. Another point of contention I have with looping is that more often than not, what people consider looping is just making contact with their auxiliary for the first time (which given the average internet user's age is not too broad of a brush to paint with).

Consider this example. There is an INFJ, age 17, male and getting ready to graduate high school (for the record, this is not me). Throughout his life he's through through his dominant Ni-perspective, which sort of alienates him from most of his classmates (okay, I'm channeling a little bit ). Of course he has his friends, but most of his free time is spent alone. At some point in his recent history he discovered typology (was correctly typed) and stumbled across the idea of looping. Now, being the organized and studious person he is (definitely not me at seventeen), high school has pushed him into developing the more 'judging' aspects of his personality, and he's noticing that recently he's become more extroverted (I use the vernacular spelling to refer to the common understanding of extraversion, not the actual psychological definition) and has a much easier time keeping up with his work and getting good grades (and then he goes to college...). Once he discovers looping, he reflects on who he has been earlier in his life, and determines that for most of his teenage life he has been caught in said loop of Ni and Ti because he was absolutely hyper-analytical and even sometimes antisocial and avoidant. He is glad that he has somehow gotten out of that spiral and moves on with his day.

My question in this scenario is this: was he actually looping, or is he just comparing his current self, one who is clearly beginning to make the connection between his Ni and Fe perspectives, to his past self, the one without the Fe perspective? I think that the latter case is far more likely than the first. Very few people actually get to the point of being too introverted, and adolescence is the time where people begin to develop the auxiliary more, and thus for the first time get a hint at a perspective outside of their dominant. So of course they'll think they've looped, because all they've ever known is their dominant function, and are only now making contact with the opposite orientation. Any person past the age (I want to say 18, but that seems hopeful) of 21 is going to have better access to their auxiliary, and thus a more clear path to the opposite orientation. I think that looping is more likely due to a lack of perspective that most of these internet kids have than any sort of clinical psychosis.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

KalimofDaybreak said:


> Jung told a story to illustrate intuition once. He saw two patients, a sensing man and an intuitive woman. He said something along the lines of "and of course they were attracted to each other." As a superficial reading, it seems that the same principle applied here: your dominant F attracted a T dom and vice versa. Humans have a strange way of doing that, I'm not entirely sure why. I know that I have an unusual tendency to be attracted to ESFJs (at least that's how I type them based on their behavior), which might make some sense, given how much Ti I have in my personality. Who knows?


Hm. I even asked him why it is that he feels this attraction, he stated, "I don't know. You're just so... pure?"
Kinda made me raise a brow and feel a twinge of nausea... I'm not as "pure" as what most people would think. Lol. Perhaps, rather, he meant pure in conviction or something. That's what I'm going with. 



KalimofDaybreak said:


> I don't mind. Frankly, I'm not entirely sure. I'm going mostly off of my mother here, and she's just seems very sensitive to her internal physical experience. I'm assuming this is mostly self-contained (not really concerned with where her body is relative to other objects), but like I said, she's just weirdly aware of what's going on inside her. She'd know if she was getting sick much earlier than me, for instance.


Yes, this sounds like my mother and sister. Both are very confident and cool about whatever is going on inside their bodies. My mom frequently says "I know my body! I'm fine." and usually, she's right. My sister, ISFJ, isn't quite as vocal about it but rather she's just quite protective and aware of her body. Some things are strange, like she will notice very subtle taste differences. My mom does this too, but not to the extent my sister does. She often talks about how she doesn't like "the way things feel." She even believes she has some sort of disorder or something that makes her hyper sensitive. Like, she can't file her nails. She says the sensation is VERY bothersome to her to the point where she can't stand it. My brother used to (very meanly) tease her by making her hand brush the carpet. She says that causes her to feel nauseous. She's overall very sensitive with her body.
]Me? I'm can be more of a hypochondriac than they are. As far as getting sick, I don't know until the early signs are more obvious. I'm pretty aware of where my body is in relation to spaces, but the inside of it is a little more nebulous. I have good control of my body in the action sense (or kinesthetic intelligence)



KalimofDaybreak said:


> Seriously, read the descriptions on something like Truity or 16Personalities. The difference between the INFJ and INFP descriptions is literally just that INFJs are scheduled and get things done, and INFPs don't. The difference between J and P seems to have become so shallow that all it means is 'self-disciplined' or 'not self-disciplined'. And that's my biggest problem with these letters: a P can learn to keep a schedule, a J can learn to be flexible.


Haha, oh, I remember the dark days of 16Personalities. I test INFJ on that. Their questions for the test is ridiculous.



KalimofDaybreak said:


> Oh definitely. I hate parties and dancing and loud noise and basically anything that college freshman do. I once had a long discussion with an xNFP friend of mine about how I don't have fun. I say this because my definition of 'fun'--philosophy, writing music or words, thinking about typology or other things that interest me (I'm the kind of guy who does music theory in his head when I'm bored)--is so different from what culture at large says is fun (Se). I can enjoy those things on a visceral level, but I don't like myself when I do them because it brings out that repressed, immature side of me, and for some reason I always feel sick after parties. Don't know why. In any case, yes, I definitely think type has something to do with it. You'll notice that all of the things I listed that I do for fun involve a rational function in some way, though, so I definitely think that relaxation is mostly triggered by the auxiliary and tertiary.


See, now, I'm a bit of both. Bars and parties aren't for me. I'm just not into that scene. I think that's actually part of being an introvert.
Loud music, however, is a different story. I love concerts and I play my music too loud (I get scolded a lot  ) I actually love dancing and other high-energy things. I don't care for things like roller coasters, but, I love jumping/speeding on horses. The latter is something my ISTP friend was too scared to do, but he's a roller coaster junkie. I tease him often for that.

Drinking and drugs, nope. But it's not because I don't like the "Se-ness" of it. To get wasted would violate who I am as a person. A lot of my friends are cannabis users (one of the few drugs I don't hate with a passion) but I don't, because I'm just fine with reality as it is and feel no need to escape it or heighten it. My parents literally never had to worry about me giving into peer pressure. No one can make me do something I don't want to do or think is wrong. I'm stubborn and the things that were pushed violated what I believe in for myself. That's Fi for you, lol.

I love learning about typology too, but as of late it's been my primary source of enjoyment because I've had surgery and can't get out and do the other things I enjoy.

My sister literally gets enjoyment sitting around and just watching TV with the kids and their company. My mother feels happiest when she "feels useful" as in when she's helping my sister clean up after Thanksgiving dinner or watching/caring for my baby niece. Fe. Ick. Not me. I'm happiest when I'm out and about, allowed to be who I am, etc.
My fondest and happiest memories involved my birthday parties where all of my close friends got together to go bowling or swimming or something. Oh! And my horseback riding camps. Those were great. And the fun shenanigans we would have to do for Theater class.
The time I got to pet a tiger was pretty amazing too. 
I notice the times when I got the most enjoyment was when I was out experiencing something. Probably a sign of Se, but it's not the sort of Se society says we should enjoy.
I think that those little things might be good indicators of your true type deep down as well. Think about it, if you had a day to do whatever you wanted with no worries, what would it be? Why?



KalimofDaybreak said:


> I laughed out loud. I swear, so many INxJs are just abstract ISxJs, which is ironic, since abstraction is generally associated with introversion as opposed to intuition.


Yes, thank you! Though introverts that have intuition higher in their stack I think may be more likely to voice their abstractions. Introspection in general, however, is bound to allow for some "mysteriousness."

That also makes me think, I think more so than just Sensing, society puts a lot of pressure to be extroverted. You don't get hired at many jobs for being mousy and antisocial. Seriously. The work force of society demands you be extroverted. It's... depressing. Probably why IxFP's, who I think are in the class of being the most introverted of types, often are not satisfied with their jobs. Aside from many jobs not allowing freedom, they force them to come out of their shell. I think IxxJ's wouldn't necessarily be happy about this, but at least their closest extroverted function is one that can be used to communicate with people, Te/Fe. You can't really communicate super effectively with Se and Ne. Lol. I wouldn't call myself painfully shy or anything, but if I had a job that demanded I be an extrovert all the time, I'm positive I'd fall into a deep depression frequented by flits of anxiety. 



KalimofDaybreak said:


> I don't have a tumblr, so I'll take your word on this. I find that when there's a lot of Fi being thrown around (I took a discourse class one time where I swear everyone was IxFP, including the professor. On a a side note for this side note, I don't do well with xNxP professors, especially xNFPs, which I find interesting) I tend to just back away. Which now that I think about it, is probably why I don't have a tumblr.


I had an INTP professor for a computing class.... him and I did NOT get along. And I'll explain why.

First of all, his lectures followed all sorts of tangents and he would not give a straight answer to a question. I'd ask him something simple about coding and.... I could never follow along with his answer. It wasn't even an answer to me. I made it through that class by following the WRITTEN instructions given for each project and I was on my own because he sure couldn't help me. I tried going to his office one-on-one a couple times but always left more confused. I wanted a straightforward and clear answer to my simple questions and in his head, he was giving them. I even took notes of everything he wrote on the board and showed them to my sister. Her reaction was "What drugs is this guy on?" But since she's an ISFJ and does have Ti-Ne, she was able to kind of decipher them. Me? Not really. Lots of big "intuitive-type" leaps in his lectures. He expected us to be able to "fill in the blanks" of his statements.
I would get so irritated when I would need instruction on how to fix something. Instead of walking me through/showing me how to fix it, he would go "uhhh... here." and practically push me aside to fix it himself. UGH.
I had an older woman cling to me like glue during that class because I was the only one who thought similarly to her. Many days did I come early to class to help her in the lab because the night before I would go and use the written instructions, along with the tutorial site we were encouraged to use, to complete my project. Often times the professor would DEVIATE from the instructions to do it his way and that just didn't work for us. The woman would be like, "Well... Dave said to do it this way, though." to which I told her not to listen to him, because he was unclear. Unlike Dave, the professor, I was patient and clear with my instructions when I would help her.
He would get frustrated quickly, and when he got frustrated, he got rude. He very rudely told me and this older woman when we failed to understand what he was saying, "It's not rocket science!" Implying our lack of intelligence. That didn't just irritate me, it enraged me. I actually got up and walked out of the classroom without another word. 

We went to his boss after that crack. Of course, it didn't do anything, but he lost all my respect after that. What little I had to start with anyway...



KalimofDaybreak said:


> Which, considering that more than 70% of people are sensors, should strike the thinking individual as odd...


Another reason why people want to be an intuit. Being a real intuit is "rare" and "unique." Ugh. Both have their pros and cons.


----------



## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

@KalimofDaybreak

I just had my username changed. It's still me, SheWolf. Just telling you so there's no confusion. Lol.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart (Aug 18, 2015)

Vespera said:


> Show me, then, how I've used Ti with proper sources to back up the statements.


That is a wonderful example of Ti, and the mode of expression you are using is quite Fe. I'd wager you'd fit in better with the Fe using types than you would with the Fi types if you went to subforums. Take a look at Ti dominant types to see what Ti looks like. @Entropic probably has muuuuuch better sources, though. http://personalitycafe.com/istp-articles/95596-jungs-description-introverted-thinking-type-ti-dominant.html

I, myself, am a Fe user (or at least I believe so) but that does not prevent me from being emotional at other times. I am often feeling something. I may not know what it is without sorting it out and thinking it through, but it's there. This is because of the way the other functions work. Have you checked out "shadow" functions or Socionics theory at all? I recommend it.

You strike me as an ESFJ or an ENFJ. One of my best friends is an ENFJ; I'd like to think I can recognize dominant Fe when I see it. I could be wrong, of course. I don't exactly know what is going on in your mind! Judging solely by how you communicate and the priorities I see you having, however, I see Fe trying to fit in and Ti trying to make it make sense.

Here is something that you may not have seen before that could help. I'll stick it in a spoiler so you can choose to view it or not.


* *




Now, for me, going back to early childhood development really helped, so check this out, ok?

https://www.personalitypage.com/html/kids/EFJ.html


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## KalimofDaybreak (Aug 6, 2015)

Vespera said:


> Hm. I even asked him why it is that he feels this attraction, he stated, "I don't know. You're just so... pure?"
> Kinda made me raise a brow and feel a twinge of nausea... I'm not as "pure" as what most people would think. Lol. Perhaps, rather, he meant pure in conviction or something. That's what I'm going with.


I think Fi probably looks quite pure to Te-doms. Te can be rather cutthroat and immoral if it lacks the proper Fi, so I'd imagine that seeing someone who _prefers_ Fi making the very judgments that ExTJs repress, it probably strikes them as pure.



Vespera said:


> Yes, this sounds like my mother and sister. Both are very confident and cool about whatever is going on inside their bodies. My mom frequently says "I know my body! I'm fine." and usually, she's right. My sister, ISFJ, isn't quite as vocal about it but rather she's just quite protective and aware of her body. Some things are strange, like she will notice very subtle taste differences. My mom does this too, but not to the extent my sister does. She often talks about how she doesn't like "the way things feel." She even believes she has some sort of disorder or something that makes her hyper sensitive. Like, she can't file her nails. She says the sensation is VERY bothersome to her to the point where she can't stand it. My brother used to (very meanly) tease her by making her hand brush the carpet. She says that causes her to feel nauseous. She's overall very sensitive with her body.


Sounds like fairly typical Si, although I can relate to that hypersensitivity to sensations (some, anyway). The subtle awareness of taste is also something commonly associated with Si, but whether or not that's 'true' is a little more vague for me. I doubt she has a disorder; in my brief moments of research I didn't find any neurosis related to hypersensitivity to sensation. I think that's just an xSxJ thing.



Vespera said:


> Me? I'm can be more of a hypochondriac than they are. As far as getting sick, I don't know until the early signs are more obvious. I'm pretty aware of where my body is in relation to spaces, but the inside of it is a little more nebulous. I have good control of my body in the action sense (or kinesthetic intelligence)


Jung mentions that repressed sensation can actually inculcate some hypochondria in the individual. I would assume that any sort of non-dominant sensation would have some kind of hypochondria associated with it, but personally, I can be super picky about my cleanliness. It's actually something I'd consider a mild neurosis, because I'll wash my hands four times because, even after the third time, they still *feel* dirty.

And yeah, I just don't do the physical stuff. I don't really get people who are in sync with their external environment.



Vespera said:


> Haha, oh, I remember the dark days of 16Personalities. I test INFJ on that. Their questions for the test is ridiculous.


Sigh...yeah...



Vespera said:


> See, now, I'm a bit of both. Bars and parties aren't for me. I'm just not into that scene. I think that's actually part of being an introvert.


Definitely.



Vespera said:


> Loud music, however, is a different story. I love concerts and I play my music too loud (I get scolded a lot  ) I actually love dancing and other high-energy things. I don't care for things like roller coasters, but, I love jumping/speeding on horses. The latter is something my ISTP friend was too scared to do, but he's a roller coaster junkie. I tease him often for that.


Haha, roller coasters are interesting. I'm a bit of a prude towards high-energy experience like that. On one hand I hate it and I spend a lot of time prior to the experience explaining to everyone around me why this is a terrible idea and I really do just hate this, but then once it starts I'm like a child experiencing it for the first time.

Horses...oh dear. I'm not a horse rider, but the few times I've been able to ride have been interesting. Last time I had to ride bareback and I forgot that leaning forward makes the horse go faster and that leaning makes it turn...I learned that horses could do donuts that day.



Vespera said:


> Drinking and drugs, nope. But it's not because I don't like the "Se-ness" of it. To get wasted would violate who I am as a person. A lot of my friends are cannabis users (one of the few drugs I don't hate with a passion) but I don't, because I'm just fine with reality as it is and feel no need to escape it or heighten it. My parents literally never had to worry about me giving into peer pressure. No one can make me do something I don't want to do or think is wrong. I'm stubborn and the things that were pushed violated what I believe in for myself. That's Fi for you, lol.


I was just thinking it sounded pretty Fi.

Okay, I have to go on one of my drugs rants because it absolutely pisses me off that kids are total idiots about all this stuff.

[rant]
Anything that alters brain chemistry is terrible for you and leaves a lasting impact, regardless of whether or not it's the first time or not. The brain communicates through impulses through its neurons, and these impulses are triggered by neurotransmitters. An experience is pleasurable because the neurotransmitter dopamine is released and causes the pleasure centers of the brain to light up. We all know this; this is basic psychology. The thing that absolutely amazes me is that kids omit the other parts that the inevitably learn with this information: smoking a drug like cannabis causes your brain to be flooded with dopamine, hence the high. So, your body's natural response to a surplus of chemical is to kill some of the receptors to it so your _don't_ go on a trip. Yes! Your body does _not_ like being high because you are entirely incoherent while you are, and it's highly dangerous. So as receptors are killed, more and more dopamine is needed to reach that high again. Eventually you're not taking the drugs to feel good anymore, you're taking them to feel normal, because you have effectively destroyed all of the receptors in your brain, and it can take months and even years to grow them back. Drugs are entirely terrible for you across the board, and yet people persist in systematically destroying their bodies and risking incarceration to feel good. And this is what so profoundly pisses me off: not that people are destroying their bodies--I honestly couldn't care if they're short-sighted enough to do that--but that the decision to do drugs is entirely selfish. Kids get in to drugs to fit in, they do it to escape reality, whatever. Most reasons can be chalked up to a severe lack of perspective. Take the escapism issue: I guarantee that anyone's life is not bad enough to justify drugging away their lives. Think about anyone it Haiti, the abandoned children in China, or countless of starving kids in Africa, or rampant alcoholism, abuse, and poverty among the gypsies of Romania. If a person seriously thinks that their life is so bad because school is hard or--good heavens--they actually have to take some responsibility for themselves and their actions, they are the problem with American society. It's that kind of narcissism and entitlement that I have no sympathy or tolerance for. In the West, our lives are great. I really don't care if their parents are divorced or they come from an abusive home; none of that justifies the purely selfish mentality that accompanies drug use. (To be clear, I'm not unsympathetic to these situations; I come from a divorced family myself, but...) A person can't justify their actions based on their past because in the end, only they themselves are making the decisions. And I especially hate it when bright individuals with significant potential squander that on getting high. It's a waste. There are a thousand more things that a person could do that won't destroy their bodies or make them a waste on society. But no, today people can do whatever the heck they want to because for some reason it's taboo to actually evaluate someone's life decisions and judge (yes, judge) whether or not those are right or wrong, good or bad. People have absolutely no sense of the larger community they're a part of, and it breeds the aforementioned narcissistic and entitled mentality.
[/rant]

Sorry about that. I really can't deal with drug use. I honestly have nothing but contempt for it.



Vespera said:


> I love learning about typology too, but as of late it's been my primary source of enjoyment because I've had surgery and can't get out and do the other things I enjoy.


Yeah, that always stinks.



Vespera said:


> My sister literally gets enjoyment sitting around and just watching TV with the kids and their company. My mother feels happiest when she "feels useful" as in when she's helping my sister clean up after Thanksgiving dinner or watching/caring for my baby niece. Fe. Ick. Not me. I'm happiest when I'm out and about, allowed to be who I am, etc.
> My fondest and happiest memories involved my birthday parties where all of my close friends got together to go bowling or swimming or something. Oh! And my horseback riding camps. Those were great. And the fun shenanigans we would have to do for Theater class.


Haha, I so relate to your mom and sister. I'm the kind of person who will sit quietly in the room with someone just to be around them, even if we don't talk at all.



Vespera said:


> The time I got to pet a tiger was pretty amazing too.


That is cool. That is very cool.

I just had a thought: that statement "pet a tiger" would have meant something entirely different 5000 years ago.



Vespera said:


> I notice the times when I got the most enjoyment was when I was out experiencing something. Probably a sign of Se, but it's not the sort of Se society says we should enjoy.
> I think that those little things might be good indicators of your true type deep down as well. Think about it, if you had a day to do whatever you wanted with no worries, what would it be? Why?


I can certainly be an indicator.

My ideal day...wake up in the morning around 6. Spend a few hours reading. Make some breakfast around 8, probably pancakes with eggs (I love putting peanut butter on pancakes), have some tea with that. After breakfast, go for an early morning drive for a few hours, maybe with a good friend, and just enjoy the scenery. Maybe go for a hike if I/we feel like it. Pass through a few of those small 'one-street' towns out in the sticks. Go eat lunch at some local place that's regionally famous for something ridiculous; you know those kinds of restaurants that have that small town charm about them, the kind of place where the owner serves you your food and actually cares where you're coming from. After lunch, head back home and spend the afternoon writing or composing. Spend a few hours practicing piano (I play the piano, by the way) as it gets later in the evening. Make dinner around 5 or 6, probably some kind of meat. If I'm feeling romantic/fancy, I'd probably sear some steaks and boil some vegetable sides. Spend the evening writing or reading, maybe watch a few episodes of whatever show I'm currently watching. Go to bed around 10.

That was a lot more specific than I expected.



Vespera said:


> Yes, thank you! Though introverts that have intuition higher in their stack I think may be more likely to voice their abstractions. Introspection in general, however, is bound to allow for some "mysteriousness."


I think that mostly depends on the person. Intuitives might have more language for abstraction, but whether or not that use it is probably more dependent on the individual.

Quite note: introversion =/= introspection. Sure introverts might be more inclined towards introspection, but introversion is just a fundamental orientation inward, not a predisposition to engage in certain activities.



Vespera said:


> That also makes me think, I think more so than just Sensing, society puts a lot of pressure to be extroverted. You don't get hired at many jobs for being mousy and antisocial. Seriously. The work force of society demands you be extroverted. It's... depressing. Probably why IxFP's, who I think are in the class of being the most introverted of types, often are not satisfied with their jobs. Aside from many jobs not allowing freedom, they force them to come out of their shell. I think IxxJ's wouldn't necessarily be happy about this, but at least their closest extroverted function is one that can be used to communicate with people, Te/Fe. You can't really communicate super effectively with Se and Ne. Lol. I wouldn't call myself painfully shy or anything, but if I had a job that demanded I be an extrovert all the time, I'm positive I'd fall into a deep depression frequented by flits of anxiety.


Don't be anxious. No use graying your hair too early.

I don't know if I've said this to you before, but Western society is _very_ ESxx. Dale Carnegie's book is a perfect example of this. In fact, in the past, like the 50s or 60s, folks thought that being introverted was actually a disorder of sorts, and lots of parenting books were published to help 'cure' the introversion. It wasn't good. The work force also quite frequently demands that people behave in extraverted ways. I often say that I am an Asian man who was born on the wrong half of the planet for this very reason: Eastern cultures are much more introverted and accepting of introversion. Funny little quirk of China in particular: they see excessive smiling as a sign of shallowness or a lack of self-control. The East is also significantly less individualistic than the West. You'll hear women over there talking about marrying a man because their family approves of it or he's a good match of x, y, and z reasons. Not a lot of "he/she's my soulmate" rhetoric over there. I've always wanted to spend some time there just to experience the culture a little more.



Vespera said:


> I had an INTP professor for a computing class.... him and I did NOT get along. And I'll explain why.
> 
> First of all, his lectures followed all sorts of tangents and he would not give a straight answer to a question. I'd ask him something simple about coding and.... I could never follow along with his answer. It wasn't even an answer to me. I made it through that class by following the WRITTEN instructions given for each project and I was on my own because he sure couldn't help me. I tried going to his office one-on-one a couple times but always left more confused. I wanted a straightforward and clear answer to my simple questions and in his head, he was giving them. I even took notes of everything he wrote on the board and showed them to my sister. Her reaction was "What drugs is this guy on?" But since she's an ISFJ and does have Ti-Ne, she was able to kind of decipher them. Me? Not really. Lots of big "intuitive-type" leaps in his lectures. He expected us to be able to "fill in the blanks" of his statements.
> I would get so irritated when I would need instruction on how to fix something. Instead of walking me through/showing me how to fix it, he would go "uhhh... here." and practically push me aside to fix it himself. UGH.
> ...


Oh wow, that sounds like a difficult class. I can't say I've ever had a professor speak rudely towards me. Maybe I'm just such an angel. 

I do sort of sympathize with professors, though. Coding is a complicated thing, and INTPs especially, who probably aren't professors for the actual _teaching_ aspect of the job, probably have a very difficult time trying to teach students who have a hard time getting the information on their own. INTPs aren't the brilliant communicators of the world (unlike us INFJs... ), so I think that they have rather limited abilities to teach. That never justifies rudeness, though.



Vespera said:


> We went to his boss after that crack. Of course, it didn't do anything, but he lost all my respect after that. What little I had to start with anyway...


Yeah. Often times professors like that are kept around because they're good academics and are good for the school's reputation. But it's always frustrating when the boss doesn't do anything about it. I think there's a definite mentality in colleges that kids are entitled or stupid or really anything that justifies the administration in ignoring their complaints.



Vespera said:


> Another reason why people want to be an intuit. Being a real intuit is "rare" and "unique." Ugh. Both have their pros and cons.


Yeah. Individualism at its finest.


----------



## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Vespera said:
> 
> 
> > Show me, then, how I've used Ti with proper sources to back up the statements.
> ...



My mother is an ESFJ. Her and I very different. Very. I was also friends with someone who I'm pretty sure was an ESFJ. That friendship was hell for me. She was so.... Dramatic? So is Mom. I see my mother using the infamous "Fe masks" in various situations and it makes me roll my eyes.

The reason I have to support Fi is this: when a Fi user is in an emotionally charged situation that overwhelms then, they bolt. Literally. I've done this several times. I talked to someone who took the official MBTI test, she was ISFP, and she asked me how I handled a crisis. My answer? I don't. 
When my father died, I literally ran. I could NOT handle the intensity of emotion I was feeling and needed to REMOVE myself from the situation to sort out my emotions. My Fe using sister and mother did not. She said this reaction was HIGHLY suggestive of Fi. She does the same thing. I won't reveal her situation here because it was personal, but she literally bolted too. Fi users ACT on their feelings, not discuss them. 

Fe-Ti users are able to deal with emotional intensity because they analyze the emotions and situations of others naturally. 

There's also no way I'm an extrovert. If I am, I am probably the world's most introspective one. I prefer to do things alone. 

As stated, if I am a Fe user, I would have to be Fe inferior. I'm pretty detached from the emotions of others.

And as far as me showing Ti, what I think you're REALLY seeing is Fi-Te in me, because I was irritated. I was becoming very "take charge and show me the facts" Te. I do that when I'm mad, lol.

And actually I have hung around Fi users both on here and on Facebook groups. I get along pretty well. Sometimes I find THEM a bit dramatic too though. The groups I DID NOT get along with were the INTJs, INTPs, and ENTPs. I haven't been in with the ISTPs yet. I think my childhood best friend was an ISTP and we got along fabulously.... Most of the time 

Strangely, I get along fine in the ENTJ group on Facebook. 

Really, I don't mean to come across as rude, but I'm pretty sure I know Fe when I see it too because I was RAISED by the most ESFJ of ESFJs: my mom. Lol. She drives me insane and vice verse. She is actually a pretty good definition of an ESFJ stereotype. I will check out the links in a moment and get back to you.


----------



## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Why do you make a typing thread and ask for opinions when you just shut down anyone who seems to disagree with what you already think about yourself? Waste of both your time and everyone else's.


----------



## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

KalimofDaybreak said:


> Jung mentions that repressed sensation can actually inculcate some hypochondria in the individual. I would assume that any sort of non-dominant sensation would have some kind of hypochondria associated with it, but personally, I can be super picky about my cleanliness. It's actually something I'd consider a mild neurosis, because I'll wash my hands four times because, even after the third time, they still *feel* dirty.


Interesting. Lol @ the hand washing. I don't really do that with the exception of when it's appropriate to do so, however. 
I am VERY picky about how my dishes are washed and I feel uncomfortable in unclean environments. I'd almost rather sit in misery before using a gas station restroom. *shudder* But, strangely, the "uncleanliness" of the barn doesn't bother me. That's different, though. That's more of a... "earthy" uncleanliness. 



KalimofDaybreak said:


> And yeah, I just don't do the physical stuff. I don't really get people who are in sync with their external environment.


Hm. I've never been able to do team sports, but I did do martial arts and one of my favorite things to do was performance. Had to be in sync for that and it wasn't difficult for me.




KalimofDaybreak said:


> Haha, roller coasters are interesting. I'm a bit of a prude towards high-energy experience like that. On one hand I hate it and I spend a lot of time prior to the experience explaining to everyone around me why this is a terrible idea and I really do just hate this, but then once it starts I'm like a child experiencing it for the first time.


I relate to the second part. However, I don't bother explaining to people why I don't like it. I just tell them nope. 



KalimofDaybreak said:


> Horses...oh dear. I'm not a horse rider, but the few times I've been able to ride have been interesting. Last time I had to ride bareback and I forgot that leaning forward makes the horse go faster and that leaning makes it turn...I learned that horses could do donuts that day.


Bahahaha! Yes, I can confirm that most horses would be more than pleased to do lazy donuts with a rider than ya know... actually go somewhere.



KalimofDaybreak said:


> I was just thinking it sounded pretty Fi.


Yeah, WHY IS EVERYONE HERE SUDDENLY SO SURE I'M A FE USER, BY THE WAY???



KalimofDaybreak said:


> Okay, I have to go on one of my drugs rants because it absolutely pisses me off that kids are total idiots about all this stuff.
> 
> [rant]
> Anything that alters brain chemistry is terrible for you and leaves a lasting impact, regardless of whether or not it's the first time or not. The brain communicates through impulses through its neurons, and these impulses are triggered by neurotransmitters. An experience is pleasurable because the neurotransmitter dopamine is released and causes the pleasure centers of the brain to light up. We all know this; this is basic psychology. The thing that absolutely amazes me is that kids omit the other parts that the inevitably learn with this information: smoking a drug like cannabis causes your brain to be flooded with dopamine, hence the high. So, your body's natural response to a surplus of chemical is to kill some of the receptors to it so your _don't_ go on a trip. Yes! Your body does _not_ like being high because you are entirely incoherent while you are, and it's highly dangerous. So as receptors are killed, more and more dopamine is needed to reach that high again. Eventually you're not taking the drugs to feel good anymore, you're taking them to feel normal, because you have effectively destroyed all of the receptors in your brain, and it can take months and even years to grow them back. Drugs are entirely terrible for you across the board, and yet people persist in systematically destroying their bodies and risking incarceration to feel good. And this is what so profoundly pisses me off: not that people are destroying their bodies--I honestly couldn't care if they're short-sighted enough to do that--but that the decision to do drugs is entirely selfish. Kids get in to drugs to fit in, they do it to escape reality, whatever. Most reasons can be chalked up to a severe lack of perspective. Take the escapism issue: I guarantee that anyone's life is not bad enough to justify drugging away their lives. Think about anyone it Haiti, the abandoned children in China, or countless of starving kids in Africa, or rampant alcoholism, abuse, and poverty among the gypsies of Romania. If a person seriously thinks that their life is so bad because school is hard or--good heavens--they actually have to take some responsibility for themselves and their actions, they are the problem with American society. It's that kind of narcissism and entitlement that I have no sympathy or tolerance for. In the West, our lives are great. I really don't care if their parents are divorced or they come from an abusive home; none of that justifies the purely selfish mentality that accompanies drug use. (To be clear, I'm not unsympathetic to these situations; I come from a divorced family myself, but...) A person can't justify their actions based on their past because in the end, only they themselves are making the decisions. And I especially hate it when bright individuals with significant potential squander that on getting high. It's a waste. There are a thousand more things that a person could do that won't destroy their bodies or make them a waste on society. But no, today people can do whatever the heck they want to because for some reason it's taboo to actually evaluate someone's life decisions and judge (yes, judge) whether or not those are right or wrong, good or bad. People have absolutely no sense of the larger community they're a part of, and it breeds the aforementioned narcissistic and entitled mentality.
> ...


Preach. I feel the same way. I see zero use in drugs. The only exception might be, say, if a cancer patient is in extreme pain and things aren't looking too bright for them. But recreational? Get outta my face with that.

Reminds me, I strongly dislike when people just run away from their problems. I've lost a great deal of friends because they'll ask my advice and when I give it (which consists of "suck it up, Buttercup") they don't like that. They expect me to coddle them and tell them everything's gonna be alright and to continue running away from life. Not gonna happen.




KalimofDaybreak said:


> I just had a thought: that statement "pet a tiger" would have meant something entirely different 5000 years ago.


*raises brow*

I don't want to know.



KalimofDaybreak said:


> I can certainly be an indicator.
> 
> My ideal day...wake up in the morning around 6. Spend a few hours reading. Make some breakfast around 8, probably pancakes with eggs (I love putting peanut butter on pancakes), have some tea with that. After breakfast, go for an early morning drive for a few hours, maybe with a good friend, and just enjoy the scenery. Maybe go for a hike if I/we feel like it. Pass through a few of those small 'one-street' towns out in the sticks. Go eat lunch at some local place that's regionally famous for something ridiculous; you know those kinds of restaurants that have that small town charm about them, the kind of place where the owner serves you your food and actually cares where you're coming from. After lunch, head back home and spend the afternoon writing or composing. Spend a few hours practicing piano (I play the piano, by the way) as it gets later in the evening. Make dinner around 5 or 6, probably some kind of meat. If I'm feeling romantic/fancy, I'd probably sear some steaks and boil some vegetable sides. Spend the evening writing or reading, maybe watch a few episodes of whatever show I'm currently watching. Go to bed around 10.
> 
> That was a lot more specific than I expected.


That was quite specific.  Lol.

My ideal day would be a fun and leisure day at the barn. Riding with friends on trails, perhaps a nice bonfire in the evening. Actually, I've always said that one of the things I've ALWAYS wanted to do was an overnight riding trip in the mountains somewhere. That'd be amazing. Aside from the inevitable saddle soreness, of course. But, it'd be so worth it. 




KalimofDaybreak said:


> Don't be anxious. No use graying your hair too early.
> 
> I don't know if I've said this to you before, but Western society is _very_ ESxx. Dale Carnegie's book is a perfect example of this. In fact, in the past, like the 50s or 60s, folks thought that being introverted was actually a disorder of sorts, and lots of parenting books were published to help 'cure' the introversion. It wasn't good. The work force also quite frequently demands that people behave in extraverted ways. I often say that I am an Asian man who was born on the wrong half of the planet for this very reason: Eastern cultures are much more introverted and accepting of introversion. Funny little quirk of China in particular: they see excessive smiling as a sign of shallowness or a lack of self-control. The East is also significantly less individualistic than the West. You'll hear women over there talking about marrying a man because their family approves of it or he's a good match of x, y, and z reasons. Not a lot of "he/she's my soulmate" rhetoric over there. I've always wanted to spend some time there just to experience the culture a little more.


Time to move to the East. With the exception of the marriage thing. Of course, I was influenced by my own culture, I could have been different if I was raised over there. Certainly, there'd be a lot less emphasis on sexual attraction. Which, to me, is why 50% of our marriages today fail.





KalimofDaybreak said:


> Oh wow, that sounds like a difficult class. I can't say I've ever had a professor speak rudely towards me. Maybe I'm just such an angel.


95% of the time, I am nothing short of teacher's pet. I take my work seriously and show respect. It astonishes me how some kids act nowadays. Granted, I've no love for the strict conservative environment I was raised in initially, but there are some aspects I'm grateful for.



KalimofDaybreak said:


> I do sort of sympathize with professors, though. Coding is a complicated thing, and INTPs especially, who probably aren't professors for the actual _teaching_ aspect of the job, probably have a very difficult time trying to teach students who have a hard time getting the information on their own. INTPs aren't the brilliant communicators of the world (unlike us INFJs... ), so I think that they have rather limited abilities to teach. That never justifies rudeness, though.


On a personal level, he was a pretty nice guy. I sympathized with him toward the end when he explained how stressed he was over this class. This course was new and literally the first semester it'd been done. One of his sections was full of obnoxious Digital Media students who took nothing seriously. (there's a joke about Digital Media students in my college. Can't say much. I was one for a semester, but I didn't fit the stereotype they'd created for themselves)

Was still slightly sour at him calling me stupid, though.... 



KalimofDaybreak said:


> Yeah. Often times professors like that are kept around because they're good academics and are good for the school's reputation. But it's always frustrating when the boss doesn't do anything about it. I think there's a definite mentality in colleges that kids are entitled or stupid or really anything that justifies the administration in ignoring their complaints.


What's sad is I agree with administration. There are A LOT of kids around that are entitled and get sour because they aren't catered to special treatment in college like they probably were in high school. It sucks, however, for those of us who are genuine. My sister is an elementary school teacher and she says it's exhausting how kids today expect to be entertained all the time.


----------



## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

Just one question, how can you be so sure that your mom is an ESFJ, when the information you have about jungian functions are wrong.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Night Huntress said:


> Why do you make a typing thread and ask for opinions when you just shut down anyone who seems to disagree with what you already think about yourself? Waste of both your time and everyone else's.


1. This isn't an open typing thread. It's for differentiating between INFP and ISFP. Some things have already been decided.

2. I'm getting pretty sick of people telling me what they think I do without _any_ consistency. If it was just people saying I use Fe and not Fi, that'd be okay. But in the past I've had people tell me I'm anywhere from ENFP, INFP, ISFP, ISTP, INTP, INTJ, ENFJ, INFJ, ISTJ, ESFJ... it's getting to the point where I think I must be ALL THE TYPES. 
So I'm having to put my foot down and state what I think fits best for me and clear up confusion on what I'm not certain of. This is not my only typing thread. I've had probably two or three. Had to ask again because the others started the crap of telling me I'm 12 of the 16 types.

3. No evidence showing me physical proof of why their opinions are actual representations of Fe. Just opinions on what they think Fe acts like. That's not valid. I took people's words in the past and all it did was misinform me and/or leave me completely confused with all the conflicting info.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Vespera said:


> 1. This isn't an open typing thread. It's for differentiating between INFP and ISFP. Some things have already been decided.
> 
> 2. I'm getting pretty sick of people telling me what they think I do without _any_ consistency. If it was just people saying I use Fe and not Fi, that'd be okay. But in the past I've had people tell me I'm anywhere from ENFP, INFP, ISFP, ISTP, INTP, INTJ, ENFJ, INFJ, ISTJ, ESFJ... it's getting to the point where I think I must be ALL THE TYPES.
> So I'm having to put my foot down and state what I think fits best for me and clear up confusion on what I'm not certain of. This is not my only typing thread. I've had probably two or three. Had to ask again because the others started the crap of telling me I'm 12 of the 16 types.
> ...


There might be no grounds for INFP and ISFP to be valid, and people might disagree with both, as just happened. Essentially you're asking people who only agree with you to post in this thread, or else you're gonna yell them down.

All you've been saying so far is "I'm telling you, I'm NOT X" without really listening to why they think you're X or whether their definitions are more sourced and appropriate. With that attitude you're better off validating your Fi dominance to yourself in a mirror. Please don't come to a forum and give an illusion of being willing to listen if you're planning to disrespect those with new opinions.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

karmachameleon said:


> Just one question, how can you be so sure that your mom is an ESFJ, when the information you have about jungian functions are wrong.


How are you so sure _yours_ are right? You certainly haven't produced any solid sources on where you learned your info on the functions.

I'm kind of wondering why you're still here stalking _my_ thread. I'd actually appreciate it if you'd dismiss yourself. You created a lot of discord in my last one, too, by insulting people. Much like what you're accusing me of, inn my ISFJ/INFJ thread you asked someone to help type you and then started to dismiss their input.



karmachameleon said:


> I just looked it up and I think everyone intuits to a certain degree.
> Why should I listen to a sensor saying i dont use Ni when Ni user are saying i do? They would understand it more than you


Typing racism.  I'm calling it "typism." 

You have no actual credentials to make anything you say more valuable than others. Seriously. I'd hate for things to get ugly, but I'm more than willing to make it so if I see fit. I politely ask you to stop putting input on my threads. Have a nice day.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

Vespera said:


> How are you so sure _yours_ are right? You certainly haven't produced any solid sources on where you learned your info on the functions.
> 
> I'm kind of wondering why you're still here stalking _my_ thread. I'd actually appreciate it if you'd dismiss yourself. You created a lot of discord in my last one, too, by insulting people. Much like what you're accusing me of, inn my ISFJ/INFJ thread you asked someone to help type you and then started to dismiss their input.
> 
> ...


Because ive researched mine and ive looked into other typing systems based on Jungian functions besides MBTI. I've posted type-me threads on here and don't ignore others opinions unless they're unreasonable(like you). 
I havent insulted people that didn't deserve it.
Also I don't see how that is "typism" as you call it(lol). It's logical that an Ni user with the same amount of knowledge on a subject or even more, would be more correct in deciding whether people are Ni users or not, rather than a Si or Ne user, because they've experienced it first hand.

Neither do you but you sure act like it. You only agree with people that confirm your beliefs about yourself (which are based on a false image). I'm going to post in any thread i want, thank you.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Night Huntress said:


> There might be no grounds for INFP and ISFP to be valid, and people might disagree with both, as just happened. Essentially you're asking people who only agree with you to post in this thread, or else you're gonna yell them down.
> 
> All you've been saying so far is "I'm telling you, I'm NOT X" without really listening to why they think you're X or whether their definitions are more sourced and appropriate. With that attitude you're better off validating your Fi dominance to yourself in a mirror. Please don't come to a forum and give an illusion of being willing to listen if you're planning to disrespect those with new opinions.


Then what would you have me do when I have SEVERAL people giving me SEVERAL different typings??? I have a person here that's sure of my Fi, others Si, and another Fe or even Ti. How do YOU suggest I go about choosing one without making some things definite? I have to start making some sort of criteria for myself before I'll believe anything anyone says. And if you think I haven't been thinking about what they've said, you're wrong. But I'm getting so sick of second-guessing that I have to do SOMETHING. As I've stated, too, this thread has kind of evolved from trying to type me to a discussion about functions.

Seems the only way I'm going to determine my type is through self-study (which I'm sure I'll get backlash for on here too) or paying a couple hundred dollars for the actual test which is not going to happen.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

Vespera said:


> Then what would you have me do when I have SEVERAL people giving me SEVERAL different typings??? I have a person here that's sure of my Fi, others Si, and another Fe or even Ti. How do YOU suggest I go about choosing one without making some things definite? I have to start making some sort of criteria for myself before I'll believe anything anyone says. And if you think I haven't been thinking about what they've said, you're wrong. But I'm getting so sick of second-guessing that I have to do SOMETHING. As I've stated, too, this thread has kind of evolved from trying to type me to a discussion about functions.
> 
> Seems the only way I'm going to determine my type is through self-study (which I'm sure I'll get backlash for on here too) or paying a couple hundred dollars for the actual test which is not going to happen.


First off, why are you so obsessed with labeling yourself that you would pay a couple hundreds of dollars to do it? Think about why you are, and what youre going to do with that information.
Ive told you that you should go learn about other typology theories instead of being stuck on this one, so you can clear your mind a bit and stop obsessing over it, then you can come back with a hopefully new attitude about it!


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

karmachameleon said:


> First off, why are you so obsessed with labeling yourself that you would pay a couple hundreds of dollars to do it? Think about why you are, and what youre going to do with that information.
> Ive told you that you should go learn about other typology theories instead of being stuck on this one, so you can clear your mind a bit and stop obsessing over it, then you can come back with a hopefully new attitude about it!


I didn't ask you, I asked her. You wanna tell me what to do and boss me around, but God forbid I ask you politely to remove yourself from MY thread. Seriously. I would appreciate if you would leave me alone, especially if you view me as being narrow-minded, why waste your time with me? I'd certainly love to be done with you, but you won't leave me be. If you think I'm so ignorant, then just let me do so?

I'm very much in control of who I allow to speak to me. So, no, you CAN'T talk to whomever you choose, however you choose, because others have a choice.

I ask once more, leave me alone. I'm pretty sure harassment is against the rules here. If I don't feel okay to post anything out of worry that YOU will swoop in and create destruction, there IS a problem there.


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

Vespera said:


> 1. This isn't an open typing thread. It's for differentiating between INFP and ISFP. Some things have already been decided.
> 
> 2. I'm getting pretty sick of people telling me what they *think* I do without _any_ *consistency*. If it was just people saying I use Fe and not Fi, that'd be okay. But in the past I've had people tell me I'm anywhere from ENFP, INFP, ISFP, ISTP, INTP, INTJ, ENFJ, INFJ, ISTJ, ESFJ... it's getting to the point where I think I must be ALL THE TYPES.
> So I'm having to put my foot down and *state what I think* fits best for me and clear up *confusion* on what I'm not certain of. This is not my only typing thread. I've had probably two or three. Had to ask again because the others started the crap of telling me I'm 12 of the 16 types.
> ...


I'd just like to say that if you aren't an ISFP, then my name isn't... oops! oh, uh... Ferroequinologist. ;-)

I think that part of the problem others are facing is that it seems to me, that you are dropping into your inferior Te quite a bit in this thread. To people unaccustomed to dealing with that, or who don't understand it very well, it can come across as Fe. On the other hand, and i just did it now--going back through all 15 pages of this thread, I see it come out a bit, especially when people keep tossing out the Fe business. So, why did you change your username, and drop the ISFP? 

I think I could be quite confident in saying you are not an Ne type. You are Se. Furthermore, I see inferior Te--the way you express your attitude towards recreational drugs, and how you express your frustration. All very Te-specific. I bolded some words above that sort of illustrate what I'm talking about. BTW, I don't do this for your sake, but for others who may disagree with me. Trust me, i'm well-acquainted with how inferior Te looks and sounds. ;-)


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

ferroequinologist said:


> I'd just like to say that if you aren't an ISFP, then my name isn't... oops! oh, uh... Ferroequinologist. ;-)
> 
> I think that part of the problem others are facing is that it seems to me, that you are dropping into your inferior Te quite a bit in this thread. To people unaccustomed to dealing with that, or who don't understand it very well, it can come across as Fe. On the other hand, and i just did it now--going back through all 15 pages of this thread, I see it come out a bit, especially when people keep tossing out the Fe business. So, why did you change your username, and drop the ISFP?
> 
> I think I could be quite confident in saying you are not an Ne type. You are Se. Furthermore, I see inferior Te--the way you express your attitude towards recreational drugs, and how you express your frustration. All very Te-specific. I bolded some words above that sort of illustrate what I'm talking about. BTW, I don't do this for your sake, but for others who may disagree with me. Trust me, i'm well-acquainted with how inferior Te looks and sounds. ;-)














That's what I've been trying to explain. I know I am Fi-Te. I've seen when I do it in person, it's not pleasant. Fi, combined with inferior Te, is going to *of course* going to combine to look like Fe. I'm putting my foot down, becoming stubborn as a bull, being direct, but with an awful lot of emotion behind it. Yup. EVERYONE FEAR THE INFERIOR TE.

I dropped the ISFP mostly because I kept thinking Ne. But, with how physically agressive I am getting now... probably Se. 

Discussion closed.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

@ferroequinologist

Oh, and I changed my username because I was bored of it and it just wasn't fitting my aesthetic mood anymore.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Vespera said:


> Then what would you have me do when I have SEVERAL people giving me SEVERAL different typings??? I have a person here that's sure of my Fi, others Si, and another Fe or even Ti. How do YOU suggest I go about choosing one without making some things definite? I have to start making some sort of criteria for myself before I'll believe anything anyone says. And if you think I haven't been thinking about what they've said, you're wrong. But I'm getting so sick of second-guessing that I have to do SOMETHING. As I've stated, too, this thread has kind of evolved from trying to type me to a discussion about functions.
> 
> Seems the only way I'm going to determine my type is through self-study (which I'm sure I'll get backlash for on here too) or paying a couple hundred dollars for the actual test which is not going to happen.


The criteria you make could be wrong, and from what I see of the definitions you're using, they most certainly are. There have been people politely attempting to debate this with you, but you've laced your posts heavy with snideness and sass in all your replies to them and not been receptive at all, except to the people who validate exactly what you feel. So I ask you again, why make a thread? 

I really don't care what goal you achieve in your typing journey, but you need to chill out and stop trying to micromanage everyone's opinions. It's not anything "fearful" or "physically aggressive". It's just childish, and achieves nothing useful. By all means, do some self-study, but stop taking it so hard when people tell you you're wrong.


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

Vespera said:


> @_ferroequinologist_
> 
> Oh, and I changed my username because I was bored of it and it just wasn't fitting my aesthetic mood anymore.


Ha. I relate. I've thought about changing mine many times--people don't understand what it means... But on the other hand, I'd probably want to change it to something really geeky and *nixy, that nobody understands, as I discussed long ago:
http://personalitycafe.com/isfp-forum-artists/146204-name-change.html

Talk about inferior Te (that thread is it!)


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Night Huntress said:


> The criteria you make could be wrong, and from what I see of the definitions you're using, they most certainly are. There have been people politely attempting to debate this with you, but you've laced your posts heavy with snideness and sass in all your replies to them and not been receptive at all, except to the people who validate exactly what you feel. So I ask you again, why make a thread?
> 
> I really don't care what goal you achieve in your typing journey, but you need to chill out and stop trying to micromanage everyone's opinions. It's not anything "fearful" or "physically aggressive". It's just childish, and achieves nothing useful. By all means, do some self-study, but stop taking it so hard when people imply you're wrong.


I apologize, deeply, I do. To everyone. I'm really *NOT* like this, only when in the grip of frustration. But @ferroequinologist has made a good point that I'm ashamed to admit. I hereby declare this thread dead. May it burn in the fieriest pits of Hell. Continuing with it is sure to only cause more problems.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

@Night Huntress

On an unrelated note.... your avatar looks like Sir Integra Wingates-Hellsing.  Just wanted to point that out, now I'm done.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

Vespera said:


> I didn't ask you, I asked her. You wanna tell me what to do and boss me around, but God forbid I ask you politely to remove yourself from MY thread. Seriously. I would appreciate if you would leave me alone, especially if you view me as being narrow-minded, why waste your time with me? I'd certainly love to be done with you, but you won't leave me be. If you think I'm so ignorant, then just let me do so?
> 
> I'm very much in control of who I allow to speak to me. So, no, you CAN'T talk to whomever you choose, however you choose, because others have a choice.
> 
> I ask once more, leave me alone. I'm pretty sure harassment is against the rules here. If I don't feel okay to post anything out of worry that YOU will swoop in and create destruction, there IS a problem there.


You really have problems if you get this fucking offended by someone telling you youre a different type.
Btw, i asked you a while ago if you avoid conflict. Then you said you avoided it like death or something like that. But then i said like okay because thats Se. And then you were like "oh actually i fight ALOT with my dad when he calls me lazy" like okay.. lol


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

karmachameleon said:


> You really have problems if you get this fucking offended by someone telling you youre a different type.












Added to ignore.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

So ignorant, jesus


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Vespera said:


> _"In your opinion."_
> Give me a source, be that a book or someone who is a confirmed Fe-user, that tells me what Fe is and how it correlates with what I've said. I don't take personal opinions on this matter.


Sure I can. Fe is a specific mode of expression, it focuses on the external world of emotions. I like Augusta's definition of Fe overall, because it gives a much better concrete image of Fe compared to the MBTI's, that tends to equal it with social harmony which is a misnomer, since social harmony has little to do with neither Fe nor Fi though it can certainly be included as a part of both. I'll bold the aspects I think overlap well with your mode of expressiveness: 



> Perceives information about processes taking place in objects — first of all, emotional processes that are taking place in people, their excitation or subduedness, and their moods. *This perceptual element implies the ability to know what excites people, and what suppresses them. It defines a person's ability or inability to control his emotional state, and also the emotional states of other people.*
> 
> When this element is in the leading position, *the individual has the innate ability to induce or convey his moods to others and energize people with his emotions. He is able to activate the psychological/spiritual lives of other people and their emotional readiness for action. You might say that such a person has the ability to infect others with his moods and tends to impose on others the emotional states that he considers beneficial for their life activities.*
> 
> *What people usually call emotions or a person's display of emotions is neither more nor less than a form of letting out this internal excitation directly*, almost without expending it in muscle activity. A cheerful person who laughs releases an emotional charge and inner excitation through certain movements of the muscles of the face and body. This might be a means for reducing overexcitement, when inner exertion cannot be used for the activity it was intended for. *But it can also be a conscious method of conveying one's excitement/agitation to others — inducing one's internal excitement/agitation in the psyches of other people. Anger, for example, is also a way of reducing overexcitement, but it is usually directed not at arousing others emotionally, but at emotionally suppressing and depleting them, at lowering their activity level, or at strictly channeling their activity*.


I also like the vocabulary section for Fe:

*Extraverted ethics










THEMESSUB-THEMESdescribing fields of relationships and actions that take place between people- describing influences on living objectsdescribing external, observable manifestations of emotions- spectacles
- describing emotional states or degrees of arousalusing sonal forms of words as a means of expressing emotions- describing audible behavior and imitating sounds
- situative word creation to convey shades of emotion
- expressive interjections and exclamationsSPEECH PECULIARITIES 

frequent use of emotionally charged adjectives
combining emotional adjectives and adverbs that are opposite in meaning
quoting poems, songs, etc. that reflect their current emotional situation
informal, colloquial, "non-dictionary" vocabulary
intentionally violating the stylistic flow with words that are either highly colloquial or archaic
intonationally conveying emotional states
personification of inanimate objects; increasing the number of actors involved in each story
 DOMINANT FIELDS OF ACTIVITY AND TOPICS OF CONVERSATION 

gossiping
evoking emotional reactions in others
changing and creating any kind of emotional atmosphere and any kind of nuances in communication
strong emotions and impressions
 
*
The underlined part is very important, as this is something you do very frequently, that is, projecting emotional tones, feelings and moods onto objects. 



> Show me, then, how I've used Ti with proper sources to back up the statements.


You haven't really used Ti because you don't really try to use it much, so no, that's quite irrelevant. An Fe dom rarely if ever uses Ti though one could argue that you are trying to use Ti now, when you are urging me to provide sources and definitions as a way to observe whether there is some kind of inconsistency with my claims and who you experience yourself to be. That's a part of what Ti is about. 



> All you've given me is your definitions of the functions. Sorry, that's not a credible source. The only way someone has been able to get me to take what they say seriously is by showing me credible proof. Do that and I will GLADLY be willing to listen and consider what you have to say.


Seeing my authority on the subject, I'd say I'm a pretty darn credible source even without providing sources for my thinking since I provide exactly the same information as the sources I use. With that said, I have provided two different sources to you that I find credible and match up with my experiences in terms of theoretical accuracy. 



> Think what you want. If I'm your representation of Fe in your head, more power to you, but I know if I told some people I was a Fe-dominant they'd either give me a strange look or laugh. I've read descriptions of Fe from books to my sister, who knows me best, and she looked me dead in the eyes and said, "that's the last thing you are." As I read it myself, I thought that too.


So what is _your_ definition of Fe and why do you not match it? Just saying that you and other people don't think you fit a definition of a thing doesn't say much to me, especially since I know most people have an erroneous idea of what Fe is. 



> I KNOW what I do. I KNOW what I don't do. I KNOW who I am in this sense. I KNOW how I interact with people of different types. I


Ok, so show it in your actual expressions then. 



> Incorrect. This is a Feeling thing IN GENERAL.
> Fe-doms and Fi-doms are going to do the same thing when it comes to this. Their stack puts their feeling functions AHEAD of all their others. The other functions behind it will ultimately get ruled out by Feeling thoughts/decisions.
> The only way I've considered being Fe is if I was a Fe inferior.


Feelings aren't the same as reasoning with the feeling function, however. Everyone has feelings. I'm a thinker because I'm an INTJ, but I would also say I'm a fairly emotional person and it's not related to where Fi is in my functional stack. _How_ I express my emotions is related to Fi, however. 



> I get told I'm 50 different types from many different people in MANY different place. I've been into MBTI for at least two years now. I've heard others tell me that I'm anywhere from INFJ, ENFJ, ISFJ, ESFJ, INFP, ISFP, INTP, ISTP, INTJ, ISTJ.... I even have an ENTJ friend who's been studying MBTI for quite awhile now SWEAR I'm an INTJ, but I know I'm not.


Doesn't say shit to me. I don't hold other people's opinions of this system in very high regard precisely because most people don't know how to type very well in it. 



> The only types that I haven't been told I am is ExTx.


So? You don't strike me as a thinker and if you are, you have to be some kind of Ti ego which I find implausible. 



> But, as I've been told by many credible people, only _I_ can ultimately determine my type. _No one_ knows how exactly my mind works like I do. They can only take a guess. Therefore, I will be purchasing the books recommended to me, including Carl Jung's, and go from there on my own. It's the only way I'll have a clear answer. People will ALWAYS have their piece to say about one another's types, but this is something that you just have to pick your best fit. I know ESFJ doesn't fit me, because I know how I think. We'll see.


Sure you can, but it is also pretty evident that you seek input on your type and you seek the opinions of others', or you wouldn't have this thread open, would you? 

And why doesn't ESFJ fit? What is an ESFJ according to you? Most people have a fucked up idea of what an ESFJ is.

btw, you wanted an example of Ti, especially Ti-seeking as in, it is something you are weak at but you wish others to provide you, here it is:



Vespera said:


> *2. I'm getting pretty sick of people telling me what they think I do without any consistency.*


You may try that stuff on me, but I'll assure you that it won't work. What at @karmachameleon noticed also, that you are very inconsistent in your own behavior and opinions, also points towards 1D Ti, which can only manifest in ExFPs and ExFJs. I am not entirely sold on ESFJ, but I think it is more likely than ENFJ.

Also, do you know why this happens?



Vespera said:


> Then what would you have me do when I have SEVERAL people giving me SEVERAL different typings??? I have a person here that's sure of my Fi, others Si, and another Fe or even Ti. How do YOU suggest I go about choosing one without making some things definite? I have to start making some sort of criteria for myself before I'll believe anything anyone says. And if you think I haven't been thinking about what they've said, you're wrong. But I'm getting so sick of second-guessing that I have to do SOMETHING. As I've stated, too, this thread has kind of evolved from trying to type me to a discussion about functions.
> 
> Seems the only way I'm going to determine my type is through self-study (which I'm sure I'll get backlash for on here too) or paying a couple hundred dollars for the actual test which is not going to happen.


Because people are not working on the same premises and the same definitions and unfortunately, because typology is something abstract, there is no way to fully concretely point out to what something is like you can with say, the color blue, but it becomes a matter of interpreting how information lines up the best with a certain definition of a thing. The clearer and the better the definition, the easier it is to type someone else. This is exactly why I refer to Augusta, because her definitions are very easy and clear to understand, including the list of vocabulary that I linked you, because again, it points to something very clear and concrete that you can actually observe in people.

That way you create a basic framework of understanding for everyone to operate on, which will avoid all the constant disagreements and misunderstandings that have occurred in this thread. This is a great example of what happens when there is a) a lack of knowledge of a subject and b) lack of strong Ti presence to help structure the thread content. 

Just to use myself as an example, had I been in this thread from the very beginning I can assure you a very different development would have happened. You may have had disagreed with me, but it would certainly not have been as unstructured as it is now.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Entropic said:


> Vespera said:
> 
> 
> > _"In your opinion."_
> ...


I've relaxed myself some, so I'll listen, with much curiousity, as to what you have to say. I'm trying to reason with myself WHY I got so pissed. This is what it came down to, so analyze it as you wish:

-People telling me what I do and don't do, when I know the true reasons behind what it is I'm doing and I see it as falsehood.
-Frustration at being no closer to determining what the hell it is I am. I think I have something, and boom, someone else sweeps in and says another thing that should actually be taken into consideration.
-Feeling (and actually being) attacked. SOME people, instead of politely pointing out that what I'm saying is actually X and not Y, resorted to calling me stupid when in fact I am simply misinformed.

But I am concerned about this: you're not sold on ESFJ, but it's more likely than ENFJ? Then, what AM I? 

Forgive the shortness of reply, I'm on mobile.

ESFJ to me is probably stereotypical. I'm pretty bloody sure my mother is one, and she is the epitome of what a stereotypical ESFJ is. Overly motherly, moody, gossipy, sometimes fake, emotionally micromanaging...

What is ESFJ to YOU?

Fe to me is very self-revealing and always shifts emotion and feeling to others. Fe is concerned with how they are making others feel, whereas Fi is concerned about how others are making them feel. In which case, I'm the latter. This is what I've learned about Fe and Fi.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

@Entropic

For shits and giggles, mostly, I took this test. The original. I know testing is not accurate, but, eh, I'll do anything like this once. Some questions I knew right away, some required me to think a little deeper about preference. Results below.





















I personally don't know a ton about Socionics, except that for Introverts the P and J mean the opposite in relation to MBTI. So, in MBTI, I'm ISFP.

But, there's never a bad time to learn.


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## Valtire (Jan 1, 2014)

Vespera said:


> I get told I'm 50 different types from many different people in MANY different place. I've been into MBTI for at least two years now. I've heard others tell me that I'm anywhere from INFJ, ENFJ, ISFJ, ESFJ, INFP, ISFP, INTP, ISTP, INTJ, ISTJ.... I even have an ENTJ friend who's been studying MBTI for quite awhile now SWEAR I'm an INTJ, but I know I'm not.


This is what you get with MBTI. It's completely incoherent and everyone makes up their own version of it. Socionics is not like that; people can actually come to an agreement on type because it's less ambiguous. Heck, most of the regulars in the Socionics section actually fit into the type they claim to be.

There have been multiple occasions when I've suspected a type, and one of the other regulars comes in and says the type I've been thinking of. There's consistency, so you don't end up getting lost in a sea of confusion like in MBTI.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Fried Eggz said:


> Vespera said:
> 
> 
> > I get told I'm 50 different types from many different people in MANY different place. I've been into MBTI for at least two years now. I've heard others tell me that I'm anywhere from INFJ, ENFJ, ISFJ, ESFJ, INFP, ISFP, INTP, ISTP, INTJ, ISTJ.... I even have an ENTJ friend who's been studying MBTI for quite awhile now SWEAR I'm an INTJ, but I know I'm not.
> ...


Then let's have at some Socionics, then!


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Vespera said:


> I've relaxed myself some, so I'll listen, with much curiousity, as to what you have to say. I'm trying to reason with myself WHY I got so pissed. This is what it came down to, so analyze it as you wish:
> 
> -People telling me what I do and don't do, when I know the true reasons behind what it is I'm doing and I see it as falsehood.
> -Frustration at being no closer to determining what the hell it is I am. I think I have something, and boom, someone else sweeps in and says another thing that should actually be taken into consideration.
> -Feeling (and actually being) attacked. SOME people, instead of politely pointing out that what I'm saying is actually X and not Y, resorted to calling me stupid when in fact I am simply misinformed.


Shrug. I really don't give a fuck for your reasons. 



> But I am concerned about this: you're not sold on ESFJ, but it's more likely than ENFJ? Then, what AM I?


Fe dom? Why is that not satisfactory? It says a whole damn lot. The rest are just smaller details that can be filled out at a later time. 


> Forgive the shortness of reply, I'm on mobile.
> 
> ESFJ to me is probably stereotypical. I'm pretty bloody sure my mother is one, and she is the epitome of what a stereotypical ESFJ is. Overly motherly, moody, gossipy, sometimes fake, emotionally micromanaging...


That could apply to a lot of people and isn't type specific at all. You are describing a behavioral archetype that could describe a wide range of people and types, not necessarily a specific cognitive type. However, _if_ I had to try to ascribe this to anyone specific type at all, I'd ascribe it to an ISFP or possibly INFP, *not* an ESFJ. Fi doms can be incredibly micromanaging when it comes to people and their emotions, especially from the perspective of an Fe type, who think Fi doms are usually mostly stuck up people with sticks up their asses and never allow people to truly be open and as expressive as they should be but instead immediately shut down people's (from the Fe type's POV) right to emotional expressiveness by placing a lid on it. I think especially Fe doms find this tendency of Fi doms very disturbing. 



> What is ESFJ to YOU?


An ESFJ to me is someone who uses Fe, Si, Ne and Ti as a part of their main way of viewing and interacting with the world. It may or may not manifest in certain behaviors. 



> Fe to me is very self-revealing and always shifts emotion and feeling to others. Fe is concerned with *how they are making others feel, whereas Fi is concerned about how others are making them feel.* In which case, I'm the latter. This is what I've learned about Fe and Fi.


Nope. Both Fe and Fi can do that. That's just empathy and everyone has it. Fe isn't the same as being a doormat or a people-pleaser, but it's, again, a specific mode of expression. Fe projects emotions outwards onto objects and notes on emotions outside the person and how these emotions affect people. Augusta summarized that part very nicely:



> Perceives information about processes taking place in objects — first of all, emotional processes that are taking place in people, their excitation or subduedness, and their moods.


I mean, I copy all that information to you but you don't even bother to address it despite you asking for the information to be provided. Kind of rude, imo. It gives off the impression that you didn't even bother to read wtf was provided to you and you are trying to intellectualize how that makes sense. I expect you to respond to the information, not to talk about your own emotional reactions and how you are or are not XYZ without even looking at the information provided to you. If you actually bothered to look at the information that was provided, it would actually answer many of your questions. 



Vespera said:


> @Entropic
> 
> For shits and giggles, mostly, I took this test. The original. I know testing is not accurate, but, eh, I'll do anything like this once. Some questions I knew right away, some required me to think a little deeper about preference. Results below.
> 
> ...


I don't care for test results and never will be. Since @Fried Eggz suggested socionics, ironically, this is what I've been primarily typing you in because I think sociotypes equal to MBTI types, so an Fe dom in socionics is an Fe dom in the MBTI and vice versa. This is also forum consensus. 

All the information I provided you is based on socionics and Jung, not some random MBTI site. Since I believe you are an Fe dom in socionics, you are also an Fe dom in the MBTI.


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## Valtire (Jan 1, 2014)

Vespera said:


> Then let's have at some Socionics, then!


There are Socionics questionnaires here if you'd like to fill one out: 
What's my Socionics type?



Entropic said:


> I don't care for test results and never will be.


*insert unsolicited Ti-dom typing*


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Entropic said:


> Vespera said:
> 
> 
> > I've relaxed myself some, so I'll listen, with much curiousity, as to what you have to say. I'm trying to reason with myself WHY I got so pissed. This is what it came down to, so analyze it as you wish:
> ...


*sigh*
Tried apologizing, be professional, elaborate on my flaws you were correct about, and you respond with dickish comments. You're being just as "snark and sassy" as I was. Fine. I don't care for your reasons anymore than you care for mine. I asked questions I was curious about and wanted to understand further and you tell me that my curiousity doesn't matter. Not the attitude YOU should have when typing someone either. I never once used foul language directed at you. What is it with you people? Do you get some sort of high making people feel like worthless crap? Good for you. Ah well, just a thorn I can pluck from my backside. Lovely day to you


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Fried Eggz said:


> There are Socionics questionnaires here if you'd like to fill one out:
> What's my Socionics type?


Thank you. I'll be moving there.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

@Fried Eggz

I posted a Type Me in the Socionics forum. 

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...type-me-thread-long-short-questionnaires.html


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

Entropic said:


> That could apply to a lot of people and isn't type specific at all. You are describing a behavioral archetype that could describe a wide range of people and types, not necessarily a specific cognitive type. However, _if_ I had to try to ascribe this to anyone specific type at all, I'd ascribe it to an ISFP or possibly INFP, *not* an ESFJ. Fi doms can be incredibly micromanaging when it comes to people and their emotions, especially from the perspective of an Fe type, who think Fi doms are usually mostly stuck up people with sticks up their asses and never allow people to truly be open and as expressive as they should be but instead immediately shut down people's (from the Fe type's POV) right to emotional expressiveness by placing a lid on it. I think especially Fe doms find this tendency of Fi doms very disturbing.


I have been suspecting it for a while, but I don't think you are an INTJ. INTP sounds more like it, especially with your attitude towards Fi and Fi doms. It sounds much more like what INTPs say about them than what a typical INTJ says. And, as you are probably well aware, INTJ is a common mistype for INTPs. You really probably ought to be reconsidering your own type.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

ferroequinologist said:


> I have been suspecting it for a while, but I don't think you are an INTJ. INTP sounds more like it, especially with your attitude towards Fi and Fi doms. It sounds much more like what INTPs say about them than what a typical INTJ says. And, as you are probably well aware, INTJ is a common mistype for INTPs. You really probably ought to be reconsidering your own type.


Nah, I'm not. I used to type as an INTP when I came here, but I realized pretty quickly than I was an Fi type. Btw, what I wrote isn't my personal opinion of Fi and Fi doms, idk why you even think that, but it's how Fe types tend to see Fi. I have a very different opinion of Fe.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

ferroequinologist said:


> I have been suspecting it for a while, but I don't think you are an INTJ. INTP sounds more like it, especially with your attitude towards Fi and Fi doms. It sounds much more like what INTPs say about them than what a typical INTJ says. And, as you are probably well aware, INTJ is a common mistype for INTPs. You really probably ought to be reconsidering your own type.


Nah, I'm not. I used to type as an INTP when I came here, but I realized pretty quickly than I was an Fi type. Btw, what I wrote isn't my personal opinion of Fi and Fi doms, idk why you even think that, but it's how Fe types tend to see Fi. I have a very different opinion of Fe. Don't confuse the act of conveying someone else's perception of a thing to be equal with the perception of the messenger. 

Fe tends to annoy the fuck out of me.


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## Apple Pine (Nov 27, 2014)

lol

As for Entropic, I have seen people typing him INTP/ISFP type 6. It's not so hard to spot Ti doms. He's not one. lol


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Apple Pine said:


> lol
> 
> As for Entropic, I have seen people typing him INTP/ISFP type 6. It's not so hard to spot Ti doms. He's not one. lol




As I stated before, people are always gonna their opinions on what your type is. I don't much care what his type is. It's funny though, he's quick to say "Nah I'm not Ti." When others say he is because he knows he uses Fi, but when I swear that I use Fi and not Fe, it's a sin of some sort.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Posted in the Socionics forum. Same as last time, I've yielded no responses. I spent two hours filling out two different questionnaires as thoroughly as I could, a longer and a shorter one, so people could choose and nothing. Probably why I gave up there. I understand there are a lot of people that need typed but.... Kinda sucks to spend two hours on some to have it lost in the wind. Oh well. Not much I can do.


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## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

Vespera said:


> Posted in the Socionics forum. Same as last time, I've yielded no responses. I spent two hours filling out two different questionnaires as thoroughly as I could, a longer and a shorter one, so people could choose and nothing. Probably why I gave up there. I understand there are a lot of people that need typed but.... Kinda sucks to spend two hours on some to have it lost in the wind. Oh well. Not much I can do.


they will eventually answer, its not even been a day. people have work n school n shit


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Don't mine me, just closing this thread with a gif of a puppy.


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

Entropic said:


> idk why you even think that, but it's how Fe types tend to see Fi. I have a very different opinion of Fe. Don't confuse the act of conveying someone else's perception of a thing to be equal with the perception of the messenger.


My wife's an INTP. ;-) Plus, lots of ENTPs tend to react the same way. It just gives that "vibe." BTW, my INTP wife is also easily annoyed by Fe doms. But the truth is, Fi bugs her far worse. :-D


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

ferroequinologist said:


> My wife's an INTP. ;-) Plus, lots of ENTPs tend to react the same way. It just gives that "vibe." BTW, my INTP wife is also easily annoyed by Fe doms. But the truth is, Fi bugs her far worse. :-D


If you actually knew me as a person instead of going off vibes, you'd realize how negatively biased I am towards Fe. It's something I've been working on, pretty much. I don't know what posts you've been reading, but you certainly haven't been reading the posts where I've ranted about Fe. I actually adore Fi a little too much. It's difficult for me to justify to find it annoying the same way as I do Fe. At best I can come up with something like how it can seem elitist in how it can create "favorites", which for most of the part doesn't bother me. 

I still prefer that over how Fe even refuses to acknowledge personal relationships and loyalties. I've had a lot of conflicts with Fe-valuing types in the past over precisely that reason, where I feel frustrated because I think they don't validate the relationship we actually have and when I bring it up, they may brush it off because they try to treat everyone "equally", but I don't want to feel equal, I want to feel special and meaningful and relevant to you and to you only, to have that bond that we share acknowledged. When they begin to talk about how they feel about people in general or stuff in general it feels like they don't even give a single shit about you, which is extremely invalidating, anyway.

Also, I could equally pull the whole "my partner's an ESFP" and our communication doesn't match my experiences with Fe types. Actually, I have this really funny log in skype that I lost where an ENFJ tried to size me up or whatever, and it was extremely awkward because I had no idea wtf I was supposed to say in a way that made me feel comfortable, pretty much.


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## Lord Fenix Wulfheart (Aug 18, 2015)

OK, I am going to take a step back from evidence here, and instead ask you about your intentions. Take a look at this thing that you said earlier.



Vespera said:


> I'm very much in control of who I allow to speak to me. So, no, you CAN'T talk to whomever you choose, however you choose, because others have a choice.
> 
> I ask once more, leave me alone. I'm pretty sure harassment is against the rules here. If I don't feel okay to post anything out of worry that YOU will swoop in and create destruction, there IS a problem there.


Now, what exactly is the motivation for such a statement? It looks to me like you have a desire to create stable and safe ethical/emotional environments so you can make sense of the information you are being given. That is, you do not want to argue with someone if that person is eliciting an undesired emotional reaction *because that get in the way of what you are trying to accomplish*. Would you say that is correct?

What is your motive, the underlying reason, for a reaction like this? Can you explain what you were thinking and feeling when you said this earlier?


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Vespera said:


> I posted a Type Me in the Socionics forum.
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...type-me-thread-long-short-questionnaires.html


 @_Vespera_, I read through all 40 questions in your new Socionics thread, and I see clear use of Fi, Ne, Si, and Te MBTI cognitive functions. I actually think you might be INFP, possibly ENFP because your Te seems to be quite strong. On the other hand, you also may be showing inf. Te, which one user in this thread was correct to pick up on. I really don't see where others are getting ESFJ nor do I think they were being fair to you. You also seem to me to possibly be a Type 4, or less likely a Type 9, in the Enneagram. I'm posting in this thread because I'm coming from a MBTI perspective rather than Socionics, which I'm not as familiar with. Here's a good resource for understanding the cognitive functions in MBTI.

The 8 Cognitive Functions

And if you want to take the actual test. It was posted here online. Most people seemed to test as their actual type or close to it. It could help eliminate some options.

http://personalitycafe.com/myers-br...al-legit-mbti-test-available-free-online.html

Last, you might want to understand how the inferior functions show up:

For IxFPs: http://personalitycafe.com/infp-articles/76770-recognizing-inferior-function-ifps.html

http://mbti-notes.tumblr.com/post/128803785927/how-functions-work-inferior-te-isfpinfp

And if you want to compare to ExFJ: http://personalitycafe.com/esfj-articles/76787-recognizing-inferior-function-esfjs.html

http://mbti-notes.tumblr.com/post/138752527937/how-functions-work-inferior-ti-esfjenfj

It really does take a long time to find your type, trying to sort through all the information, especially if you're new to it all. Hope some of this helps.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

mistakenforstranger said:


> Vespera said:
> 
> 
> > I posted a Type Me in the Socionics forum.
> ...


Tagged you in my Socionics thread, but you don't need to respond.

I agree. I've always thought I was an IxFP (likely ISFP) for some time. And a lot of other people that I've talked to, some that know me fairly well too, completely disagree with the ESFJ typing.
I'm getting kinda pissed, because NO ONE is listening to me. I know how I am, I know why I do the things I do, but they don't much care. No matter what typing I choose, someone is gonna throw a fit. I don't know which one is correct. It's getting old.


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

mistakenforstranger said:


> @_Vespera_, I read through all 40 questions in your new Socionics thread, and I see clear use of Fi, Ne, Si, and Te MBTI cognitive functions. I actually think you might be INFP, possibly ENFP because your Te seems to be quite strong. On the other hand, you also may be showing inf. Te, which one user in this thread was correct to pick up on.


Could you share where you are seeing strong Ne and Si, even? I tried to compare her answers to what my INTP wife (or her INFP mom or nephew) would say, and the difference is huge. On the other hand, her willingness to use force, and even her language reflecting that, would suggest stronger Se, and is more in line with how I think/approach things. Hence my question.


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

ferroequinologist said:


> Could you share where you are seeing strong Ne and Si, even? I tried to compare her answers to what my INTP wife (or her INFP mom or nephew) would say, and the difference is huge. On the other hand, her willingness to use force, and even her language reflecting that, would suggest stronger Se, and is more in line with how I think/approach things. Hence my question.


I'll have to elaborate a little later. It's less strong Ne and Si, and more of a push-pull between Ne and Si. I said she also might possibly be ENFP, but not because I see strong Ne, but more strong Te, which seems a little unusual for INFP, since it's their inferior function. However, that could also be due to others bringing out her inferior Te more than usual, which I think is probably the more likely reason, but I didn't want to rule ENFP out completely. Her strongest function does seem to be Fi, though.


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## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

@Fenix Wulfheart 

*starts banging head on wall*


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

Vespera said:


> I agree. I've always thought I was an IxFP (likely ISFP) for some time. And a lot of other people that I've talked to, some that know me fairly well too, completely disagree with the ESFJ typing.
> I'm getting kinda pissed, because NO ONE is listening to me. I know how I am, I know why I do the things I do, but they don't much care. No matter what typing I choose, someone is gonna throw a fit. I don't know which one is correct. It's getting old.


This is completely understandable and can be infuriating for sure. No matter how well they may know the theory, they don't know the important part-- YOU! roud: They cannot type you using only a questionnaire and knowledge of the theory, they must also know you, as a person, and they don't.

If you believe that you are Fi-dominant/IxFP, then be Fi-dom. Seriously. The ultimate goal of this type stuff is personal growth, and if thinking of yourself as Fi-dom feels most accurate to you, it will help spur your personal growth. If you're thinking of yourself as something that doesn't fit, you might be _trying _to be the other type, e.g. trying to be ESFJ when you're not, which will only hinder personal growth. I'm starting to see type mostly as a way to think about oneself, not so much a psychological truth, so I guess that's where I'm coming from.

Anyway, not sure where I'm going with this, but... Be yourself and rock on  :tongue:


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