# why do people hate Fe?



## Ecoas (Jul 28, 2013)

becuase this society values stocism and indivdualism.


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## uncertain (May 26, 2012)

infjstrangeness said:


> Why do people believe friendly means manipulative? No offense to you I just want to know. My ESTJ sister is manipulative and no one ever realizes that because she doesn't show her true intentions or feelings. If I am showing my feelings how can someone not trust me.. I am just confused no offense to you


It's the same as some people would think you are trying to rip them off if you say you want to interview them, ask them several questions and write those things down. A writer told me that, and it seemed like a common thing.

I don't know. Being friendly is good, but it can feel manipulative when you are _too_ friendly. It's also tiring for me to deal with people too long, and people start to become an annoying thing to me.

I can feel vulnerable and insecure when I am exposed to someone too much. Even if I trust him/her definitely, it can still feel a bit scary.

One of Fe-manipulation is, many Fe-users know that certain kind of action will provoke certain kind of emotion, so if they want, they will do or say something to make people feel in a certain way, which is manipulative.


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## lifefullofwords (Oct 25, 2013)

In my experience Fe users annoy people for two reasons. The first is they're not Fe users and they lack the ability to understand what it's like to be a fundamentally different person and/or the ability to relate to people that process the world differently than they do. The other reason FJs, especially Fe doms, annoy some people is they can be pushy and shove their values down other peoples' throats. I say this as someone who is annoyed by the latter even though I'm an FJ. Although honestly I think behavior like that has more to do with Enneagram than Myers Briggs since it's a personality trait and not inherent to Fe as a function.


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

For me it's mostly that dom and aux Fe users seem to have a thing for "tact over fact" which just bugs me.


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## rawrmosher (Apr 22, 2013)

The fact you said you try and look "really friendly" gave me the impression that maybe you're over doing it somewhat  I'm not saying don't be friendly but don't be all up in their face about it.

I know this one ENFJ girl who was incredibly touchy feely in 1st year... she was really nice and I liked her, but some others found it a bit much.


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## register (Aug 29, 2013)

lifefullofwords said:


> In my experience Fe users annoy people for two reasons. The first is they're not Fe users and they lack the ability to understand what it's like to be a fundamentally different person and/or the ability to relate to people that process the world differently than they do. The other reason FJs, especially Fe doms, annoy some people is they can be pushy and shove their values down other peoples' throats. I say this as someone who is annoyed by the latter even though I'm an FJ. Although honestly I think behavior like that has more to do with Enneagram than Myers Briggs since it's a personality trait and not inherent to Fe as a function.


This is very wise. Additionally, As an FP, I will tend to feel confined by the more global judgements that an Fe user will make and then feel that my or others individual values have been devalued or disrespected, and want to stand up on thier behalf-it isnt that I deny the Fj their perspective-its that the FJ insists their perspective is the only correct one. Mostly ENFJs though, very rarely have I seen INFJs do this.

In the same way, a TP will feel their individual ideas are being devalued by a Te user who insists on some global solution.


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## PaladinX (Feb 20, 2013)

IRT to subject

I'm guessing that we're talking about Fi. It wouldn't make sense for Fe to hate itself. And since "hate" is within the realm of value aka Feeling judgment, then I assume we do not mean Te or Ti. 

So... why _does _Fi hate Fe? Inquiring minds want to know. Stay tuned....


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## uncertain (May 26, 2012)

infjstrangeness said:


> No it's the main reason people say they do not like Fe is because it makes people manipulative. Which is untrue because ESTJs are manipulative and bossy and Fe is very low for them. I feel like people who don't care about others at all you have to watch out for them because they do things that only benefit them. I also believe Fe users can be manipulative too but we always get the title as manipulative. I know people with Fi and if things don`t go there way they get angry and do things behind people's back.


People in general are skeptical about good intentions. I am like in between.

It's not that black-and-white. Most people do things that are largely beneficial to themselves only, which is just how things are, but it doesn't mean that they are coming to hurt you, even with people who literally _only_ do things that benefit themselves. A lot of time you can just keep a distance from them, then how can it be manipulative? It becomes manipulative only when they reach out to you, right? Fe reach out to people. Fe is more manipulative than Te because Fe focus on people and Te is goal-oriented. So unless you have something to do with the Te person's goal, he is not going to intrude your life.

I don't know. It doesn't feel manipulative if you just do things behind people's back. It's called creepy. For me, manipulation is like you come to me, say or do something to make me behave in a certain way, without me realizing your true intention.


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## RunForCover07 (Apr 9, 2013)

It’s kind of hard for me to explain how Fe feels as an INFJ, because I’ve always felt that my Fe goes in different directions than other Fe users (like ENFJ, ISFJ, or even ESFJ). While I do enjoy social harmony and I want all people to get along, I don’t believe in making people feel a certain way that isn’t true to who they are, which I know this is how Fe comes off to certain Fi users. I will have a natural emotional response to something, and I will question why maybe an Fi user didn’t feel the way I did in return, because it allows me to understand where they’re at emotionally.

So, I’m not trying to force emotions on people, but rather trying to figure out how I align with them so I can better communicate and bring down the barrier that lies between us so we can get along. For example, I had an ENFJ friend that I was pretty close to for the most part, and we had some great conversations about all sorts of things and connected on a logical level, but I never felt a personable connection with him, because I didn’t understand where he was at emotionally. I knew nothing about his past or anything that would let me know that I could trust him with my very core being. When people don’t give hints of that, they feel less human to me, and I have to trust that person is not going to hurt me.

So, I feel like Fe for me is a way to understand people so I can not only help them when needed (to understand where they’re coming from), but also to protect myself. But the ironic thing is, Fi users are the ones who tend to emotionally vent to me more than Fe users. Except for ENTJs, they always feel kind of torn with their emotions, and they keep that shit tucked away deep inside of them, but I can relate, because INFJs do the same thing.

I think Ni and Fe are going to work much different than maybe Si and Fe. I feel they have different motives. I can get along great with thinkers, but only if I remove my Fe and allow myself to think before I feel, which I do feel I can do very well for the most part. Even I have trouble with Fe doms, and Fe is my aux.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

infjstrangeness said:


> I don't see what is wrong with me helping people instead of me trying to fuck then over but people seem to think it is a problem..


It's fine as long as you respect their boundaries and don't coerce them. It can make some people quite defensive. Can you give more details about the situation that caused you to open this thread in the first place?



Ecoas said:


> becuase this society values stocism and indivdualism.


That depends what culture you are.


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## red455hawk (Dec 30, 2013)

Fe can be a little overbearing. I have an ESFJ friend who just really needs me to need him and I just don't have the emotional energy for all his antics.


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

When I did a video chat with @pneumoceptor (an INFJ) a while back, I asked her the same question that was in the OP. I liked her answer so much that I typed it out.



pneumoceptor said:


> When Fe is at its best, it makes the other person feel very known, and heard, and cared for…because it displays that care. So when it’s not being used to fix or change, but when it’s in more of an "I care about you" mode, it’s very, very good at expressing that.
> 
> As an extraverted judging function, it wants to structure, so it’s easy to fall into the "I’m gonna fix your problems", or "I’m going to change you", or "I’m going to make you better" mode, and I think that that’s where we miss the mark, because you can’t. People are way too complex for that type of manipulation. But for me personally…what I love about Fi is that you can tell there’s a really swelling depth of care there, if you know the person well. What I love about Fe is that you can also see that in small amounts, whereas with an Fi user you might not see that.


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## aj1023 (Aug 21, 2012)

Depending on the healthiness of the Fe user, they may possess the following characteristics:

*1)* Blatant dishonesty for the purpose of covering their own asses/maintaining their social rank
*2)* No personal morals/ethics, and the morals they do have depend entirely on the social group that dominates their life, no matter how evil said social group is (I actually find this quality to be the worst in the TP types)
*3) *A tendency toward passive-aggressive behavior and disguising all of their intentions with fluffy bullshit

Obviously, I've known many Fe types who are wonderful. But when the more unhealthy ones exhibit these traits us Fi users tend to be put off by them.


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## Mammon (Jul 12, 2012)

aj1023 said:


> Obviously, I've known many Fe types who are wonderful. But when the more unhealthy ones exhibit these traits us Fi users tend to be put off by them.


Us too you know...


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

I do have quite the love-hate relationship with Fe.


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## Sixty Nein (Feb 13, 2011)

I have no reason to counter the claims of what is being said, outside of my own innate disposition to be in the opposite direction of what is derived as the popular (to my own detriment really) but I can't necessarily say that a Fe is something that would require the responses of someone being passive-aggressive or whatnot whenever they aren't in the greatest of health. Take for instance gangs, or even current pop culture which generally aligns more with the "honest" expression of things that is not within the confines of high-class backstabbings and other such things.

Really Fe is the usage of judgement values that is expressed as "OK" to further ones goals, which is generally the attitude of extroversion. If say the Fe type wants to be direct, or just have a direct personality, then it's not inconceivable that they would just be direct with you and justify it as "being real" or some other platitude like that.


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## Ink (Dec 20, 2011)

Because it is controlling an smothering. Otherwise it is nice.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

- it's supplicating/brown nosing
- it cares more about what other people think than what it thinks
- it's ethical principles are usually bendy/not solid
- it tries to control the way people feel
- it can be extremely manipulative 

so yes, no need to mince words or make apologize. I hate Fe.



infjstrangeness said:


> I don't see what is wrong with me helping people instead of me trying to fuck then over but people seem to think it is a problem..


additionally, many people (esp ExTPs) DO use Fe to fuck people over


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## OrdinarinessIsAFWTD (Jun 28, 2011)

I do know some in the typology community who associate Fe with political correctness. Do any of you people think there's something to that?


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Blue Flare said:


> I made a difference because Fe-Si gives me more creeps that Fe-Ni.


I tend to feel that way about Te-Si. My late mother was an insanely anal ESTJ (or ISTJ?) and drove me and my friends nuts with her compulsive cleaning. She would actually organize my roommates' apartment - without their permission. But I can't otherwise relate to your comparison. I get along better with NTs and FJs better than I do with Fi-Se.


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## cindennrella (Jun 10, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> - it cares more about what other people think than what it thinks
> - it's ethical principles are usually bendy/not solid


Those things are a huge problem for me. They probably shouldn't be, but they are. I try to accept it, but I can't understand it.
I've also met some Fe users who got really, really angry at me when I finally said that I thought something was wrong, even if I wasn't talking about or to them. I don't even try to accept that. If they choose to say nothing when someone is being unfair or mean, that's their choice, but they can't expect me to ignore it forever. They should know that I DON'T want people to be angry, I don't like it either, those situations are actually really hard for me, but I can't stay quiet. So just let me speak my mind. Of course I'm not saying every Fe user does that, that's just been my experience with some of them. And most of them are really good people and I love them anyway, we just drive each other nuts sometimes :tongue:


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## idoh (Oct 24, 2013)

cindennrella said:


> Those things are a huge problem for me. They probably shouldn't be, but they are. I try to accept it, but I can't understand it.
> I've also met some Fe users who got really, really angry at me when I finally said that I thought something was wrong, even if I wasn't talking about or to them. I don't even try to accept that. If they choose to say nothing when someone is being unfair or mean, that's their choice, but they can't expect me to ignore it forever. They should know that I DON'T want people to be angry, I don't like it either, those situations are actually really hard for me, but I can't stay quiet. So just let me speak my mind. Of course I'm not saying every Fe user does that, that's just been my experience with some of them. And most of them are really good people and I love them anyway, we just drive each other nuts sometimes :tongue:


hi, have you seen this thread? you might feel different after reading all of the posts from Fi people doing the exact same things you mentioned. there are also Fe people doing that... roud:



Swordsman of Mana said:


> - it's supplicating/brown nosing
> - it cares more about what other people think than what it thinks
> - it's ethical principles are usually bendy/not solid
> - it tries to control the way people feel
> ...


anyone can be manipulative, but in different ways.

anyway, my principles are pretty solid. why would you say they aren't? I am also stubborn when it comes to my opinions, and don't really change them just for others (I might tone them down though). why is that an Fi trait? most people are capable of either? I know those who you are talking about, who change their opinions on something whenever their friends do. the reason for this is not Fi or Fe, it's that they never had a strong view on the subject in the first place.


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## cindennrella (Jun 10, 2012)

@idoh I don't get it, what is it that I'm supposed to see?


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## Raawx (Oct 9, 2013)

Why don't I like Fe?

1.) I see it as *shallow*. Fe users are the kind that promoted KONY 2012: they watched a video and got all "emotional" about an "important cause". Plus, I find that the Fe approach to solving emotional problems is to avoid the problem and make the individual feel better. For instance, I find that an Fe user will be there when you're upset but when you try to explain your problem to them they don't actually help or give sound advice that would help fix the problem. They just say things along the lines of "It's okay, you'll find someone else." "You're SO pretty, don't worry." I don't know, just useless comforting stuff. It can be nice, yes, but when I'm having emotional problems I want to be heard.

2.) Trends toward *conformity*. Especially with Fe doms, I find that they spend a lot of time trying to fit in, and be socially accepted when I don't find that that ultimately matters. To me, and probably most Americans, Individualism > Collectivism, which is why I admire Fi so much more. This might be a stretch, but I find that a lot of Fe users are big on Instagram, Snapchat, Facebook, Twitter and all those other, to me, useless social media sites.

I also agree with these:



Swordsman of Mana said:


> - it's supplicating/brown nosing
> - it cares more about what other people think than what it thinks
> - it's ethical principles are usually bendy/not solid
> - it tries to control the way people feel
> - it can be extremely manipulative


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## DiscoveringSelf (Dec 20, 2013)

People hate fe when it is used to express anger... and stupid logic, which is no logic at all


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## soya (Jun 29, 2010)

infjstrangeness said:


> I don't see what is wrong with me helping people instead of me trying to fuck then over but people seem to think it is a problem..


If this isn't a troll post, it reads like one.

I don't see how Fi/Te over Fe/Ti is "fucking people over". If anything Fi leads people to follow their personally felt values, where overactive Fe could cause a person to disregard what they value in favor of the group's values. 

If being true to oneself and one's real values is the core of being an upstanding member of a group, then Fi is the epitome of that...moreso than Fe.

Case in point, painting shit in black and white helps nobody. Anyone can cultivate sensitivity, empathy or compassion. It isn't type-based.


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## Ecoas (Jul 28, 2013)

> That depends what culture you are.


True. Modern western culture, which has infiltrated so parts of everywhere on earth, and includes most people with internet access.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

idoh said:


> anyone can be manipulative, but in different ways.


not disagreeing (Fe also tends to be more manipulative in the third position than the first or second. almost all of the most manipulative people I've met have been ExTPs)



> anyway, my principles are pretty solid. why would you say they aren't?


because they are derived from (and subject to change from) the outside world



> I am also stubborn when it comes to my opinions, and don't really change them just for others (I might tone them down though). why is that an Fi trait? most people are capable of either? I know those who you are talking about, who change their opinions on something whenever their friends do.


that puts you in the minority of FJs, but, nonetheless, it's admirable



> the reason for this is not Fi or Fe, it's that they never had a strong view on the subject in the first place.


already took this possibility into account. there's a difference between "I don't have a strong opinion of the subject" and "I don't have a strong opinion about anything." perhaps it's really E9 FJs that bother me the most


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## miss. potato (Jul 10, 2013)

I don't hate Fe, actually I wish I had more. Though I have noticed that dominate Fe users can sometimes tend to be overly feeling, to the point where it's just uncomfortable. Or they can be manipulative. I've noticed this most in ESFJ', but not every single one.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

The issue here is people speak of various a priori different uses of "Fe" .. some assume that someone testing F in the dichotomies test will always have Fe, when those were a mere indicator/aid (and honestly too simple to get terribly far) in going the next road which is finding cognitive type, at least by intent of the person who wrote the theory of dichotomies!

Basically, OP isn't about Fe. It seems to be about herself ,and her style in approaching people and how they respond. 

Yes, there can be clashes of Fe vs Te or Fe vs any other judging, but clashes in the sense that it's not they can't reach parallel meanings/conclusions, just that the way one reasons can be strange to the other, potentially off-putting to the other.

It's my view that if one is to reach a complete understanding, one has to be willing to acknowledge that someone of a _different_ cognitive type from yourself, while prone to reason in potentially a totally orthogonal way to oneself, might actually be seeking much of the same depth as oneself ultimately. 

I basically tend to avoid large gatherings, but when I go occasionally for whatever reason, the kind of Fe I see there is pretty scary, and makes me wish to avoid. There's a certain level of feeling judgment that goes with those situations. I suspect it gets blocked with sensing too -- and I suspect independent of type, just pure adaptation can lead to success in such scenarios, but I don't tend to care enough to adapt. This isn't to say feeling doesn't have a place in my psyche -- it just means that I can't deal with it _in those particular situations_. It also does not imply I devalue Fe. But it does mean I'm going to function poorly in a lot of situations that are stereotypically Fe-high...thing is that's limiting what Fe entails if one only looks to stereotypical situations.

This example should illustrate that if people respond poorly to some display of Fe, it's not sensible to conclude they can't respond well to it in any circumstance, it might have much more to the specifics of the situation. @infjstrangeness - mentioning you because I added stuff to the post.


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## infjstrangeness (Jul 19, 2013)

This is weird to me because people say that INFJs are closed-minded and stubborn about what is right or wrong and then people say things like "FJs opinion change according to popular opinion". Explain how we can be stubborn and conforming... If I conformed to everything you wanted me to be I would never be stubborn but the exact opposite.. maybe doormat?


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## infjstrangeness (Jul 19, 2013)

You're like the only person who explained this to me without sharing your opinion. Opinions may or may not be wrong so I wanted to learn not get advice or hear someone's opinion. Thank you @bearotter.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Raawx said:


> 2.) Trends toward *conformity*. Especially with Fe doms, I find that they spend a lot of time trying to fit in, and be socially accepted when I don't find that that ultimately matters. To me, and probably most Americans, Individualism > Collectivism, which is why I admire Fi so much more.


Just saying, I do find it a bit funny that you felt the need to add that your value of individualism is shared with other Americans. :tongue: Reminds me of that scene from Life of Brian ("We're all individuals!" "I'm not...").

Okay, maybe I'm being a little unfair.

I don't have anything to add about why people might dislike Fe, so carry on.


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## idoh (Oct 24, 2013)

@Swordsman of Mana 
that's wrong though... you still think that Fe has flexible values that change with the environment, which is not what it's about.

here, i did some searching and found a nice post that explains it
Discussion on being Fe dominant



> Fe users, on the other hand, do the exact opposite. Fe users draw from previous experiences and/or previously decided upon axioms and apply them to the present issue. In other words, Fe users apply their values to the present and immediate circumstances. As a result, *a Fe user's judgment and perspective is fixed and less likely to change upon the introduction of new information They're not constantly checking up on their feelings or values, thus making them less inclined to question themselves in terms of 'right' or 'wrong.' Instead, they direct their focus on analyzing and checking up on the feelings of others... but not as a point of comparison to their own feelings or how this other person's feeling/experiences is applicable to the Fe-user's own life or experiences. Rather, they are more likely to apply this information to how they might help this person or other people like them.
> *


Fi, on the other hand...



> Fi users typically take the current situation and apply the principles learned from this situation to build up on a previous learning experience. In other words, the present moment is being appraised for potential values or lessons that could be applied to circumstances experienced in the past or in the future. It's like they're constantly building on their values. *Their judgments and perspectives are an ongoing work-in-progress This is why they typically have difficulty staying committed to one idea or project, and seem like they're constantly questioning themselves. They're always questioning, double-checking, adding, subtracting, modifying, editing their values based on up-to-date, current information and how they can apply it to their own experience. *


_
Fi_ would be the ones who closely monitor their values, not Fe.


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## infjstrangeness (Jul 19, 2013)

Yeah i understand when you put it in that situation. It just seemed like everyone on this site hated Fe. Like I dislike heavy Si users at parties because they can't live in the momen or let lose. But I don't dislike that function in general because there is a use for it. It seems like people dislike Fe period as if it has no use and that isn't true. But like you said certain situations it can be annoying @bearotter


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@infjstrangeness - that's because descriptions won't do justice. The problem with descriptions is they try to describe Fe as its own thing, when that's never how things work -- Fe is a PART of the psyche to which Fe plays a significant role at all. One will never get a proper description without accounting for what it's operating with.


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## infjstrangeness (Jul 19, 2013)

Are you the only person who is knowledgeable about the functions on a cognitive function forum lol @bearotter


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@_infjstrangeness_ - the thing is a lot of people who know things on this forum also know a theory called socionics (which I haven't figured out yet, or so I've decided), and it speaks a lot of inter-type relations. This might flavor how people responded to you. There are systematic ways of assessing how different function valuations lead to various intertypes. You might get into this eventually too, who knows.

For a taster of that theory, the so-called MBTI-NTJ's in that system have Fe blocked in the super-ego, namely as information they metabolize consciously, but is unvalued, so it can rub them terribly the wrong way. 

But perhaps more to the point, you might find my perspective digestible because I both have experience hating shows of Fe and appreciating Fe. Fe-dom Fe can be too much unless they're really, really careful with their judgments. And some can be. 
It's more that a lot of Fe-doms in practice _won't_ be. That is where the problem tends to arise.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

People hate martyrdom, there's also a subtle Fi version.

l would ask yourself, in all honesty, why you help people and what you think you get out of it.

Not at all saying you're a martyr at this point, but the tendency to become one is easy.

Also not saying you shouldn't 'help' people, just suggesting that sometimes the behavior becomes habitual, and the helper-person doesn't reflect on why they do it.


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## infjstrangeness (Jul 19, 2013)

I forgot about socionomics.. I only follow Keirsey and Myers Briggs. Socionomics doesn't seem to verify in real life. Especially when it mentions the people you are supposed to get along with, they are always wrong. But I get why people dislike Fe but I still do not agree we conform to fit in. I use it to relate to people and be able to talk to anyone I feel is interesting. Say like my ESTP brother. When I am around him I use my Ti-Se function a lot because he uses that a lot and we would be able to communicate better. I don't believe anything he believes ( my whole family is anti police, I see the reason for police and always tell him that). I use my function I share with him because of my Fe but I do not and will never believe.any of the beliefs he picked up in jail. @bearotter


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## infjstrangeness (Jul 19, 2013)

I help people because they are close to me and I care


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Well part of the issue is you have to stick to the socionics ideas very carefully if it's going to work. They specify precise inter-relations, so that demands equal precision when typing someone, and preservation of the system's integrity.


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## Kysinor (Mar 19, 2009)

I do not understand Fe to be honest but I guess if it is sometimes accommodating towards me then I do not dislike it.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

infjstrangeness said:


> I help people because they are close to me and I care


l get that, but if you're being perceived as meddlesome l am only suggesting that the above reasoning may apply.

ln truth, l think Fe-Si and maybe even Fe-Ni under stress can be perceived as more 'micro-manage' help, so that's why people can react that way. And to say there's something _wrong _with helping would again be wrong, even on that scale. 

Perhaps it's better left to supervision than used with friends and family.

While l don't think an INFJ doesn't also want to help people, the Ni is more about a vision, helping in one universal way that doesn't necessarily involve helping everyone you come into contact with at all times. So, maybe you haven't found your vision.


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## The Alternate (Jan 14, 2013)

Every function can be annoying in it's own way if overused or if unhealthy.

I like to help people, but it usually doesn't work. I know some people here feel offended or like one can "force" help onto others, but when I do it, it comes from a place of "where does the knowledge I have intersect with the situation at hand, and is it really useful?" I would never seriously try to help somebody if I knew I was full of shit or uncertain of myself. It honestly can be from a place of no agenda. The way I described above sounds quite logical/mathematical sounding to me too; weird how something with a root in others could mirror another function. Or maybe I'm just wrong and this isn't even Fe.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

infjstrangeness said:


> I don't see what is wrong with me helping people instead of me trying to fuck then over but people seem to think it is a problem..


Holy crap.

I thought I'd already written this post... 

Okay. I must have abandoned it. If not, this is just me rewriting it in a different way. I looked for it, didn't find it.. Bah, anyway:

-- I'd never even noticed the difference between Fe and Fi before I started learning about typology, but before that fateful learned time, somebody made a social criticism that sticks out to me, now that you ask.

They pointed out how so many people seem so fake, laughing when a joke isn't funny, smiling just to smile, having fake laughs, etc... They didn't understand _why. _And they also pointed out that I was doing the same thing. They did it in such a narrow, underlining way, that it instantly became clear to me what they were talking about.

Well. I sat back, genuinely hitting on the insight, but I hadn't even thought of it before.

I'd never really seen anything _wrong _with that, before. 

But, now I understood why it might seem wrong to someone _else_, as it could be seen as contrived, as a projection of fear, a way to protect oneself from having their negative traits pointed out to them, a way of hiding their 'true' self to fit in. Sugar-coating things.

So, when I'd considered that, I started taking care to be more self-aware in social interaction. Although... That didn't last long. Might as well use what works, right?

Too much of _anything_ can be... _Too_ much. Fe can be so overpowering that it tries to force its 'help' _onto _someone, who may not perceive that help as being... Helpful. To that individual.

And when Fe is clouding the person's actual thoughts, ideas, and emotions to the point where they're becoming a yes-man, and just a clone of everyone they talk to, then that's pretty self-destructive. It demeans the individual, eats them up from the inside out. They might have honest insights that they just can't share with anyone, because they fear losing social harmony.

Fe is effusive, joyful, and trying to bridge connections-- It's trying to build rapport, so that understanding can be reached. I think that's awesome. It's _not _so awesome when that Fe hits against an overwhelming Fi wall. Every attempt to engage in social nicety isn't just met with indifference, but even hostility. Likely for the perceived negative traits of Fe.

But, Fi has its negative traits, too. It's fairly narrow in scope, and stubborn when it comes to its ideals-- Holding firm to them, to a point where they could cause themselves harm, or even others. It won't be open to another's influence without a great deal of effort, so all it has to go on is its own perspective and experience. This can make it seem fairly selfish and self-oriented.

Fi is more likely to be honest, even as it may be social-atmospherically disinterested. And that stubbornness can certainly come in handy, I'm sure. Honest insight aplenty. I think the benefit of Fi is that incredible insight into the world of emotion and feeling perceptions itself. They know how to get at the heart of things. Doesn't mean I won't stick my nose up at it, because they can get it wrong a lot, too. Since... They're coming from a platform of their own experience and perspective, and can't widen their scope objectively without first coming from that self-place. :tongue:


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## Antipode (Jul 8, 2012)

I'm glad I have my cute Fe function, but at the same time, sometimes I feel as if Fe is fake. 

Granted, it's simply because it is much easier to notice when someone is using Fe as a tool, where it is not as easy to notice when other people are using other functions as a tool.


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## RunForCover07 (Apr 9, 2013)

I’ve been thinking more about Fi and Fe, and I think I have some great examples:

*Fi Father*

One day I went to McDonalds with my dad to get something to eat. As we were pulling away from the window, a lady was crossing the McDonald’s exit. My dad seen her, and he push on the gas to pretend like he was going to hit her. The lady got scared and ran out of the way. He thought this was hilarious, and I looked at him and I said, “You’re a jerk. She could of ran into the road and got hit by a car, or slipped on the ice.” I wanted to get out of the car and apologize to her, but he wouldn't stop. He began to tell me how he would of felt, so therefore the lady being upset and how I felt was wrong.

*Fi Mother*

My mom is an ESTJ, and we’re always getting in arguments because she assumes I’m saying or doing a certain action based how she would feel in that situation. For example, if I told her that I don’t believe in showing affection by doing house chores, she will tell me that I’m a heartless asshole and not normal, because actions show compassion and love, therefore I’m going to make a horrible husband someday. I would say she’s horrible at reading people, because she lacks the ability to put herself in other peoples shoes, only her own idea of what is right and wrong.

*Fi Ex*

I spent my entire relationship with my Fi ex trying to fix it so it would go smoothly. The problem was, she only cared about how she felt and she never wanted to compromise, because she felt that I was out of line and trying to control her emotions. I was never allowed to express how I felt, because that would mean that I’m being selfish and not caring about how she felt.

I think it’s safe to say that both Fi and Fe can be controlling and pushy in their own ways. As much as Fi users want to believe their individuals, they're doing the same exact thing, but from a different perspective. I can't even count on my fingers how many times I've been told that I'm too sensitive and it's not healthy, because I outwardly express myself. I stopped toning my emotions down for Fi users, because in a sense that makes me feel like I'm conforming.


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

Being Fi dom, Fe is quite far from my understanding. I don't hate Fe, I just don't understand it.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

It sometimes rubs me up the wrong way. Like Fi does to Fe but Fe gets a sympathy thread :happy: And tbh, the Fe hate is somewhat exaggerated on forums imho.


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## pond (Nov 8, 2013)

Due to years of stupid insecurity and being a people pleaser I've developed this wonky Fe and it doesn't feel right because it doesn't cooperate with my other functions, but sometimes it pokes through and is really annoying. I hate it in myself because it makes me feel inauthentic and fake. I don't mind it in other people though, as long as they don't overdo it and aren't too pushy.


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## Charmian (Dec 28, 2013)

I find this idea of Fe fakeness so interesting, because really, who said we should believe in our emotions more than anything else? Who said we should trust them as insights into what is going on around us?

Emotions are reaction to things and situations. The thing is, you can be wrong in reacting the way you do, even if the emotion you feel is true. You might truly and sincerely feel betrayed while having absolutely no true ground upon which to feel betrayed. To give you this crass example from classical litterature, there is no doubt Othello's feeling of betrayal was *true and sincere and deepfelt* when he smothered Desdemona, doesn't mean the conclusions he drew from his feelings were.


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## soya (Jun 29, 2010)

RunForCover07 said:


> I’ve been thinking more about Fi and Fe, and I think I have some great examples:
> 
> *Fi Father*
> 
> ...


I think these are all examples of unhealthy Fi expression. Similarly, I think the "Fe hate" is also directed at unhealthy expression of Fe, not at healthy Fe.


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## soya (Jun 29, 2010)

Charmian said:


> I find this idea of Fe fakeness so interesting, because really, who said we should believe in our emotions more than anything else? Who said we should trust them as insights into what is going on around us?


Impressions are colored by past experiences and subjective feelings, and people can make the wrong conclusions. This is just as true of Fi users as it is of Fe users.


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## noelani887 (Oct 16, 2013)

I've never heard of a widespread hate for Fe, I've actually heard of more people hating on Fi. Sounds like you might just be mad about something.


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## Psithurism (Jun 19, 2013)

infjstrangeness said:


> I don't see what is wrong with me helping people instead of me trying to fuck then over but people seem to think it is a problem..


Helping people is not Fe per se.

Also one can think they're helping when they're actually not (it's to be decided on a individual basis). You cannot assume your actions are meaningful to that person by default. If anything, they might prove to be harmful.


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## Charmian (Dec 28, 2013)

soya said:


> Impressions are colored by past experiences and subjective feelings, and people can make the wrong conclusions. This is just as true of Fi users as it is of Fe users.


I just believe Fe, because it is all about dealing with emotions in a social perspective instead of an autonomous one, helps you see the difference between what you feel, what you should perhaps be feeling, what someone else could feel in your place, what you think you're making other people feel and what they might also be feeling. It helps put things in perspective. You're right Soya, Fi users can do it too, but they seem to place more value on what I call the truth of the emotion. I might simply see things from my perspective. It doesn't help too that I do no dose of Te in my system so Fi often appears so scary one-track-minded to me. I don't have what it takes to redirect it.


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## I Kant (Jan 19, 2013)

Charmian said:


> Fi often appears so scary one-track-minded to me.


There is more than one way to manage your own Fi, as evidenced by the vast selection from the range of character exhibited by people in the world.


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## Charmian (Dec 28, 2013)

I meant that of others. I was thinking more along the lines of being on the receiving end of an angry Fi-outbreak. Scary as hell. I don't speak that language.


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## mental blockstack (Dec 15, 2011)

soya said:


> If this isn't a troll post, it reads like one.
> 
> I don't see how Fi/Te over Fe/Ti is "fucking people over". If anything Fi leads people to follow their personally felt values, where overactive Fe could cause a person to disregard what they value in favor of the group's values.
> 
> ...


I think the comparison was meant to contrast Fe from Te, the latter of which might stereotypically steamroll anything and anyone in its path in pursuit of a task completion. In an immediate sense, Fe looks like "the innocent one" since it does nothing other than accommodate others' values.

Yes, the larger outcome is still undefined here and yes, painting shit black or white gives minimal clarity.

But if someone were to put things in generalizing analogies for the sake of outlining concepts, Te is like a sword/blunt object while Fe could be more like use of magic. They tend not to speak the same language, and feel wronged by each other. Mutual understanding is very difficult, because neither type can really learn how to use the opposite function. It takes a ton of energy to simulate it at best.

Now for some bias- I'd still find Fe users to be more likely concerned with "everyone understanding each other" than with immediate self-righteous combat. Whichever philosophy you prefer is a matter of values.


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## the_natrix (Aug 10, 2011)

When I don't like Fe, I don't like it because Ti is there with bad ideas. A similar thing can happen with Te and Fi when there are bad feelings.


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## Belzy (Aug 12, 2013)

the_natrix said:


> When I don't like Fe, I don't like it because Ti is there with bad ideas. A similar thing can happen with Te and Fi when there are bad feelings.


Ti can lead to great ideas.


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## the_natrix (Aug 10, 2011)

AAADD said:


> Ti can lead to great ideas.


Never said it couldn't, just said when its not doing great then things get to be a headache. Probably when it's an underdeveloped function.


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## Belzy (Aug 12, 2013)

the_natrix said:


> Never said it couldn't, just said when its not doing great then things get to be a headache. Probably when it's an underdeveloped function.


Every single person comes with bad ideas. It gets especially annoying when such person is stubborn. 

Having Ti as undeveloped function says little about a person coming with bad ideas more often. They may see things differently than those with a dominant Ti/Te, thus those T's could probably learn a thing or two from that person, and vice versa.


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

I like Fe :happy: but Ti :ninja:....is where it's at.


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## Belzy (Aug 12, 2013)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> I like Fe :happy: but Ti :ninja:....is where it's at.


Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaay, I got both!

My Ti is actually well developed, but just not a strong presence in my personality.  I choose to ignore it often.

I got many great ideas!


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## SouthernSaxon (Feb 21, 2014)

I don't hate Fe, as i use it myself to an extent and view it as a positive function in moderation. However what irritates me is people who use it too much, and develop worldviews that aren't grounded in reality. 

For example, it's impossible to even have discuss with a strong Fe user that humanitarian aid in the third world actually compounds problems like overpopulation, threatens the ecosystem and threatens the well-being of our own people by worsening existing immigration problems. I'm sure many people may disagree with that, which is fine, but Fe doms or auxs often just throw a big tantrum.


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## sanari (Aug 23, 2011)

SouthernSaxon said:


> I don't hate Fe, as i use it myself to an extent and view it as a positive function in moderation. However what irritates me is people who use it too much, and develop worldviews that aren't grounded in reality.
> 
> For example, it's impossible to even have discuss with a strong Fe user that humanitarian aid in the third world actually compounds problems like overpopulation, threatens the ecosystem and threatens the well-being of our own people by worsening existing immigration problems. I'm sure many people may disagree with that, which is fine, but Fe doms or auxs often just throw a big tantrum.


I knew I was right to fear your username.


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## The Trollmaster (Feb 1, 2013)

SouthernSaxon said:


> I don't hate Fe, as i use it myself to an extent and view it as a positive function in moderation. However what irritates me is people who use it too much, and develop worldviews that aren't grounded in reality.
> 
> For example, it's impossible to even have discuss with a strong Fe user that humanitarian aid in the third world actually compounds problems like overpopulation, threatens the ecosystem and threatens the well-being of our own people by worsening existing immigration problems. I'm sure many people may disagree with that, which is fine, but Fe doms or auxs often just throw a big tantrum.


I'm an ENTP but I would be pretty pissed off at what you said too depending on how you worded it.


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## BakerStreet (May 1, 2014)

I don't hate Fe; I *love* Fe.

...Okay, now that I've done my duty trolling on this thread, seriousness time! Most of my close friends are actually Fi-users or people whose Fe is not their dom/aux function, so there aren't that many Fe-related issues in my life except for my own.  I have ENFJ friends who are very giving, but don't get a lot in return from others.


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## SouthernSaxon (Feb 21, 2014)

The Trollmaster said:


> I'm an ENTP but I would be pretty pissed off at what you said too depending on how you worded it.


That's not because you're an ENTP but because your interests are in conflict with mine.


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## Cellar Door (Jun 3, 2012)

SouthernSaxon said:


> That's not because you're an ENTP but because your interests are in conflict with mine.


I wouldn't mind if you said that, it's not like what you said isn't arguable, granted it is pessimistic lol. I have Fe too, but Ti comes first.


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## SouthernSaxon (Feb 21, 2014)

Cellar Door said:


> I wouldn't mind if you said that, it's not like what you said isn't arguable, granted it is pessimistic lol. I have Fe too, but Ti comes first.


People want to advance the interests of their families, their "tribe" (ethnic group), because doing increases their power and influence.

I know this is a cynical way of thinking, but it's an accurate one. Look at all the lobby groups there are if you want an example.


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## Cellar Door (Jun 3, 2012)

SouthernSaxon said:


> People want to advance the interests of their families, their "tribe" (ethnic group), because doing increases their power and influence.
> 
> I know this is a cynical way of thinking, but it's an accurate one. Look at all the lobby groups there are if you want an example.


Fe is more than that though, it's not just group based ethics, it's managing the emotional atmosphere in real time. So when you say stuff like what you just said, regardless of whether it's true or not, can be seen as adding no value in terms of Fe. That is, unless everyone present believes what you believe and you're rallying everyone together.

I think Fe sometimes take a lot of flack for being fake, but to the Fe type they don't see it that way. What's so bad about managing the emotional atmosphere of a group of people? Is it really so bad, even if it's at the expense of other points of view? But at the same time, the general idea that Fi being considered genuine can easily be seen as self-absorbed or selfish depending on the viewer's value system. If anything I think Fe types would actually be way more willing to nervously laugh at that type of comment and let it go, it's the Fi types you really need to worry about  While not all are going to get fired up, I know some INFPs who would be out for blood after hearing something like that.


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## Kavik (Apr 3, 2014)

Speaking from an inferior Fe standpoint, I can sense the atmosphere of an environment and calculate emotional reactions, but I don’t try to impose emotions on others. I’m an emotional idiot who recognizes a draw to want to fit in but also realizes it’s impossible because every attempt has ended in a catastrophic error from a corrupted code I've been unable to pinpoint. I use it more like a fakeness/bullshit/shits about to hit the fan detector. It’s an unconscious radar that sometimes shorts out and causes me to turn stubborn and bloat until eventually exploding like a ball of tinfoil being nuked in a microwave.

@ OP: I haven't had the chance to experience or recognize extreme Fe people, but I doubt wanting to help others is a a result of only Fe. It's good you want to help others out but a lot of people aren't trusting and take kindness from left field as a threat because your intentions are unclear and you are an unknown. 

Fi are fun to argue with. They’re views are not easily changed and I enjoy the challenge to change their perspective if they’re willing to engage in discussion. Sometimes I can throw out thoughts and a Fi will withdraw and consider, I can see the gears turning. Though, when they build hundred story walls without beam support, immediately shutting down without consideration, I get highly annoyed with their bullheadedness. Discussions with unyielding parties is annoying and nothing gets accomplished.


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## RunForCover07 (Apr 9, 2013)

Fried Eggz said:


> 1) Lying to people in order to make them feel comfortable.
> 2) Being fake with people.
> 3) Trying to force conformity.
> 4) Allowing people to walk into harm just to avoid hurting them emotionally.


I see Ti/Te no differently:

Ti - What do these facts mean to me?
Te - What are the facts?

Fi - What do these values mean to me?
Fe - What are the values?

That would be like me saying INTJs are conformist for objective thinking. If you make it sound logical enough, they'll become slaves to just about any system. But it would be silly of me to think that Te doesn't as well look for a reason or have its own set of standards. At some point INTJs have to question their own logic (with Fi, ideally). I can't be the only one who sees the pattern here.

But let me flip that to match INFJ:

That would be like me saying INFJs are conformist for objective emotional reasoning. If you make it sound emotional enough, they'll become slaves to just about any system. But it would be silly of me to think that Fe doesn't as well look for a reason or have its own set of standards. At some point INFJs have to question their own values (with Ti, ideally).

Conformity doesn't just come down to emotions, but thinking as well. With your very logic, your mannerism would be no different than my own, but from a different type of value system. The way that you question your logic with introverted feeling, I question my values with introverted thinking.

Fi/Fe aren't a single function, but rather it works in a system of functions.

So in theory, it looks like this list as well applies to you in your own right.


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## Aelthwyn (Oct 27, 2010)

Well, it seems to me like those who have Fe as their dominant or auxiliary _can_ be unaware of how their expectations for how people should interact are perceived as seeming 'pushy' when they aren't intending to be. On the other hand I think those who have Fi as their dominant or auxilliary can come off as self-centered to others when they actually aren't. 



infjstrangeness said:


> I don't make people do anything. I just say hi and I look really friendly and people don't like it and I don't understand.


I don't think it's necessarily a problem on your end, some people just get startled or suspicious of people they don't know well being friendly to them - or friendlier than they think their relationship with you merits. I know I can be wierded out by someone appearing to be really interested in talking to me when I don't really know why they would be - like if I haven't sensed a 'connection' with them.

Also some people find warmth and cheerfulness annoying, yeah it sounds odd to me but I've known a few people who just have a natural reaction against that kind of attitude. My impression is that it comes off as silly, trivial, unrealistic, condescending, naive, or a number of other things they don't like, I guess. *shrug* My best friend is like this actually, and it does make me feel pretty terrible sometimes when I say hi wanting to be friendly to her, and she reacts with a glare instead of a smile - but I have to remind myself it's just how she is, its her 'problem' it's not that my being friendly is a bad thing, though it might be 'nice' of me strangely enough if I respect her dislike of those kinds of trivial greetings (though it's hard for me to do without feeling horrible).

Also some people have issues with certain phrases commonly used as greetings. While saying 'hey, how's it going' is often just meant to acknowledge someone's existence and your general good will towards them, some people find this kind of 'question' annoying because technically you're asking a question they don't feel like answering because they don't want to stop and think about how their life is right now, or because they know you don't actually intend it as a question. 

Maybe this isn't specific to Fe, but I can't tell you how many times friendly people have overly 'encouraged' me to join in with a conversation or game or something, genuinely wanting to help me have a good time, because they didn't understand that I was actually more happy watching and listening than participating (and couldn't really believe me when I told them so). I can recognize and appreciate their welcoming attitude, but it can nevertheless be annoying to have to repeatedly defend my choice not to participate and then feel guilty because they seem to think I'm being mean by not jumping at their invitation. It's not that I mean it as an insult to them or don't appreciate their kindness, I just _like_ being on the sidelines a lot of times. It can be annoying when they seem determined that I just need help to get out of my 'shell' and that secretly I really want to open up and participate no matter how many times I say otherwise - it's like they don't respect my own time-scale for opening up or my own preferences.


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## Valtire (Jan 1, 2014)

RunForCover07 said:


> So in theory, it looks like this list as well applies to you in your own right.


Te's version of all my points are things I approve of. Te/Fi is honest, genuine and will warn you if you're doing something embarrassing.


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## soya (Jun 29, 2010)

GYX_Kid said:


> Whichever philosophy you prefer is a matter of values.


Maybe it's a circus of values.


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## izebize (Jan 31, 2012)

RunForCover07 said:


> I spent my entire relationship with my Fi ex trying to fix it so it would go smoothly. The problem was, she only cared about how she felt and she never wanted to compromise, because she felt that I was out of line and trying to control her emotions. I was never allowed to express how I felt, because that would mean that I’m being selfish and not caring about how she felt.


I know this is a somewhat old post, but I just wanted to let you know that I totally get you - I had _exactly the same_ situation with my former best-friend. Word for word. It's such a relief that I'm not the only one. (Though I'm not sure that it's related to Fi)


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## Aleysia (Dec 31, 2012)

Totally agree with emberfly!

To Fe, avoiding opinions/feelings/topic that could cause disharmony, is the cornerstone of relationships.

Depending on the situation, it can make me feel a number of different things--*but mostly condescended to, because I feel like playing along/withholding information is exactly how you'd treat a child.*

That said, if I didn't have to constantly worry about offending an Fe and simply never finding out, I would rate interactions as being enjoyable in a way that Fi-Fi interactions seldom reach.


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## BlackShugar (Apr 29, 2014)

Because Fi feels great.


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## VoodooDolls (Jul 30, 2013)

because people is too rebell


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## lue (May 3, 2014)

Look Alive_ Sunshine said:


> Except for politenes, which is mandatory to me, I agree that the demand for the rest can be grating.


I wasn't saying they are grating, I was just saying they seem to be easier (or they come naturally)for Fe types. And these social niceties are generally how the world operates, and not doing these things can get you labeled all kinds of ways (goes back to me saying that it's a Fe Fe world laughing.


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## Belzy (Aug 12, 2013)

What a bunch of complaining peeps around here.


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## Kizuna (Jul 30, 2011)

being said:


> I've said many times I dislike Fe, and the primary reasons are because it places expectations on others, and if you fail to meet those expectations it feels like the Fe user is lambasting you with guilt, and Fe strikes me as not genuine because they are doing things based on their own perception of a situation. Dishonesty, basically.
> 
> I am not at all saying I dislike Fe using people. Fe makes me very uncomfortable - that's all.


I could say the same about Te/Fi, expecting me to fit their productivity standard, and making me feel like a nobody when I don't. You don't like getting up early? Well you're useless, cause the world functions that way and if you don't you're abnormal (etc).
Sorry but people have different biological clocks, and only because one way of functioning was universally defined as the "right" one (Te) doesn't mean the rest has to comply. Yet Te's "intention" isn't to make me feel bad, it's to make me as productive a citizen as possible.

About Fe/Fi... You can't really compare and contrast the two this easily, imho. They're way too different, except if the values they are defending align. Let's take my ENFP sis and INFJ me as an example. Our values are very similar, because the core of the value system is the same religion. But how we live by these values is different. While I question some of my beliefs from time to time and do some research to clarify the foggy aspects, she needs only once let a certain belief enter her Fi and she'll be loyal to it no matter how illogical it is. If I try addressing this issue, she just "doesn't wanna talk" about it, it's too personal, mind your own business. Sorry but I can't NOT care when someone is obviously following a false conviction.

Fe does care not only for the elusive "group" but for each and everyone around it. Just imagine a person you live with daily drinking poison and firmly believing it's good for them, if you really can say "well, that's their decision, they must know what they're doing" then you are indeed being selfish. 

Fact is, most people don't know what is good for them, I admit that I certainly don't. Can any of you seriously say that you truly know what is good and what is bad for you (or beneficial/harmful)?? Bad example but: I've been treating my hair with a toxic substance without realizing it for years (and the list of such stupid self-destructive things I did is looong...) How can I not appreciate it when someone actually cares enough to point it out to me? I'm glad someone eventually did, and it I'm sorry to say it wasn't an Fi user.

If one person has had more experience and more wisdom than you in a certain aspect of life, and cares to share it with those who seem not to have had gained this wisdom (yet) are actually doing everyone a great service. They could have ignored it, and cared about their inner harmony more than the outer one, but fact is, both are meant to balance each other out. 

Now I've used so many words to say so little xD


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## HBIC (Feb 28, 2014)

lue said:


> I wasn't saying they are grating, I was just saying they seem to be easier (or they come naturally)for Fe types. And these social niceties are generally how the world operates, and not doing these things can get you labeled all kinds of ways (goes back to me saying that it's a Fe Fe world laughing.


Oh, by the tone of the rest of your post I thought you were. They aren't themselves grating to me, but the finger pointing and labelling that comes with not adhering to them...

Yes, a Fe Fe world :dry:


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## -Alpha- (Dec 30, 2013)

While I agree with the idea that something being unique to only yourself doesn't have merit in and of itself, subscribing to group ethics based on the fact that they're the group ethics doesn't make sense to me.


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

Hating on Fe is wrong, see it's written in this Fe value systems book.


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## Abraxas (May 28, 2011)

It easy to understand Fe. Fe is just the desire for a consensus morality that doesn't require us to adapt to every single person's individual moral code on a one-on-one basis.

It's a set of rules that we can all agree to so that we don't have to reinvent the wheel with every single person we meet.

That said, some of us Fi users have gone so fucking far beyond wheels that we're using wormholes to travel.

I case you don't get what I'm saying with that metaphor, I'm saying Fe "traditions" are often limited and ineffectual in the same way that Te "standards" can become out-dated.

Fi types are moral pioneers. We're idealists who won't take no for an answer. So naturally we don't like Fe. But it's not just limited to Fe. It's both extraverted forms of judgment in general that wear us down.

Extraverted judgment is the system.

Extraverted judgment is the machine.


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## Kizuna (Jul 30, 2011)

@ *Abraxas* I don't know why you're getting so emotional over Fe  There is a reason these differences in people exist, each with their strengths and weaknesses, how else would civilization ever advance? Fe is as valuable as Fi or as any other function, if there is such a thing as a function.


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## Abraxas (May 28, 2011)

Miya said:


> @ *Abraxas* I don't know why you're getting so emotional over Fe  There is a reason these differences in people exist, each with their strengths and weaknesses, how else would civilization ever advance? Fe is as valuable as Fi or as any other function, if there is such a thing as a function.



Um, maybe you're the one getting emotional about my post?

I don't have a problem with Fe. In fact, if you read my posts at all you'll see I'm frequently defending it.


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## Sparkling Snowflake (Apr 29, 2014)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> if it comes at the expense of self expression or expecting me to be indirect and cater to over sensitive people, you bet your ass I'm going to dislike it.
> 
> PS: that said, Fe aux is MUCH more bearable than Fe dom (actually, the worst is probably Fe tertiary. imagine taking an FJ and taking away all the good intentions and real sensitivity. you just created Tertiary Fe. combine that with some Ti word twisty-ness and more cunning and congratulations! you've just created an ExTP :tongue: ). ISFJs in particular are a fairly pleasant type which I usually get along well with, because, more than other FJs, they mind their own business most of the time (especially with strangers).


That is why I didn't say _everyone_ would like it.


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## HBIC (Feb 28, 2014)

Miya said:


> @ *Abraxas* I don't know why you're getting so emotional over Fe  There is a reason these differences in people exist, each with their strengths and weaknesses, how else would civilization ever advance? Fe is as valuable as Fi or as any other function, if there is such a thing as a function.


There's no emotion in his posts. Leave to an Fe dom to claim to see something that isn't there so it can oppose it.

If anything you're projecting how his posts affect _you_.


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## 66393 (Oct 17, 2013)

Ironic because Fe is centered around caring for other people


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

If part of Fe is gaining validation from others then part of it's being rejected. It seems like Fe is only convenient for people when it directly helps those people. Other parts of Fe like its motives toward harmony are just considered insecurity and weakness.


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## Dyidia (May 28, 2010)

Abraxas said:


> I case you don't get what I'm saying with that metaphor, I'm saying Fe "traditions" are often limited and ineffectual in the same way that Te "standards" can become out-dated.
> 
> Fi types are moral pioneers. We're idealists who won't take no for an answer. So naturally we don't like Fe. But it's not just limited to Fe. It's both extraverted forms of judgment in general that wear us down.
> 
> ...


Thank you for posting this.

Extraverted judgement, both Te and Fe, can hold society back because they rely on an always-out-of-date collective net. If an Fi-type can step up and sway people to a new, better moral standard I am all for it. And similarly I would hope that Te-dominants can accept more effective thought structures once Ti-types have gone through the trouble to form ones that can update the system.


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

I think that if I were to boil down my differences with Fe, it'd be this. I resent that Fe puts the burden of its emotional well-being on my shoulders. It wants to make me responsible for its happiness and its sense of accomplishment and safety. I wouldn't do that to you, why do you do that to me? 

I will confess that in normal relationships, between adults, it gets awkward and frustrating sometimes, but as adults, we all learn boundaries, etc. and if a wife does that to her husband, I guess she has some right to that, and I won't complain--even if it does confuse and hurt me sometimes. 

BUT when a parent does that to a child, it is inexcusable. No child should have to bear the emotional burden of holding up his or her parent like that. It is a subtle form of abuse, IMO. The parent should bear the emotional burdens of their child, not the other way around. Sadly, an Fe child will try ineffectually and hopelessly to fulfill that need, and bear emotional damage for the failure, but an Fi type child will just shut down emotionally, and worse, attempt to return the abuse, thus escalating the problem, and thus the parent drives a wedge between them and the child that may never heal. I'm watching that in the family of friends of mine, and I'm helpless to help them or their child. The sad part is that the child is so open, giving and loving, but they don't want any of that. The mom just wants the child to validate her feelings of accomplishment and propriety. I won't get into the dad, because that's not Fe. :dry: In any case, no parent should ever do that, but that is the legacy, to me, of Fe.


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