# Is Tritype theory a meaningless concept or does it have merit?



## Vanguard (Dec 22, 2009)

Yes, it is useful. Focus on core first, then wing and then instinct. Fixes don't act as backup strategies, they shape and accentuate the core, so they will explain nuances of behaviour. Issues many authors have is they start describing a specific flavour of type that may be confusing to those who don't relate...focus must be placed on core function as opposed to delving too deep into more detailed/situational behaviour.


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

TreasureTower said:


> Well, one thing I've noticed; is that I have so many Enneagram books, I've lost count. Some of them just focus on cores, some on wings as well, others on instincts and not one of them even mention tritypes and some of those books are very recent. I would think that if it were a ciritical part of the theory, it would be mentioned outside of the Fauvres and typology boards.
> 
> I'm not knocking it but for anyone ie. @_mimesis_ who is making the comparison between real and useful; that is not the same thing, Nothing in typology is real but someone of it tends to be more useful than others. Yes, I'm all for what works but the basis of the OP is to determine: if tritype theory is has validity or just confuses the main theory.
> 
> How does an 8 fix manifest differently in a non-8 core or wing, than say an SX, for example? I find it more useful to have a 5-4-7 tritype since I relate to those core types more than I do 9, 8 or 1 but you can't have two head types in your tritype. So, wouldn't that really be the most useful: to figure out what your top 3 Enneatypes are and just go with that over tritype?


The 7 and 5 are going to fit together somehow to point to your actual core or perhaps even just one of your fixes. Rule of thumb: feeling two influences in the same center means either that one or neither is correct as the center.

For example, let's take someone who feels like they embody two and four behaviors and points of view. Possibilities: They are a two that feels the influence of their soul child at four; they are a four that feels the stress influence at two; they are centered at three and are failing to see themselves in the core. The link between two and four makes a strong possibility that they are one or the other, but the center at three is also plausible in this case because the type is especially prone to believing in an image of themself.

How about eight vs. one? Well the two don't share a direct connection, but they often can feel similarly as types, given that they are gut types and both have force, so the need is to differentiate what actually defines eight vs one and decide which kind of core concept the person embodies better. Also they might consider nine but it seems less likely in this context as nine tends to try to avoid both these forceful types.

Now what about a conundrum between something like eight vs. nine? More likely the person is one or the other, since they are neighboring influences and the wings both inform a type's psychological makeup.

So returning to 7 vs 5, you have to figure out if the pattern fits more with a 7ish or 5ish idea (7-->1/5 or 5-->7/8) and which explains more centrally your approach to the world and life. If it isn't your core, how does it bend through the core; if it is your core, where is your psychology right now, is it more on the stressed side (eustress or distress) which would evoke more 7ish influence in a 5, is it normal and stable/still, or is it more on the integrative side which would evoke more 5ish influence in a 7. Or, is it possible that you are actually a 6 core in that center, and feeling the influences of your wings through it. Also examine past tendencies and see where you fall based on the rest of your life. Etc.

Anyway:

*Typing is not based simply on what you feel*, because that is going to fluctuate - you need to be able to analyze the data of how you feel, what you think, how you act etc. objectively and knit it together in a coherent way, or have someone look at your data that you think you can trust to give you a serious read on what your type is likely to be. Granted, typing based on what you feel can be a step in a process to realizing critical things about yourself so it is not the worst thing to do so long as you're engaging in this with an active mind. But the utility of typing, as I see it, is not in getting a way to describe yourself to others on a website so much as gathering something useful in self-analysis and self-awareness - so why not try to hammer things down to their basest forms and get at it more centrally? You can use the concept of tritype in the same way, as I pointed out in my last post. Go deep with it if you're going to have it. Find its merit rather than dismissing it or using it as a throwaway descriptive thing because nobody writes about it, or others have whatever opinions they have, or use it themselves as shallow description.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

meridannight said:


> my 9ish tendencies are explained by inferior wing; i have an exaggerated influence from 7 which the tritype nicely ''explains'' away; 5 is a connection line; and 4 just comes out of nowhere unless i put it into the tritype perspective.


Not out of nowhere. 4 and 8 are posed as inverse types, two sides of the same spectrum.


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

Animal said:


> Not out of nowhere. 4 and 8 are posed as inverse types, two sides of the same spectrum.


yeah, but that doesn't mean every 8 is 4-fixed. some are pretty low on 4, whether it can be more closely associated with 8s or not. for me, 4 is stronger than 2, 3, 1, or 5. that's how i meant it. its influence is recognizable, and it just so happens tritype neatly ''explains'' it in my case. whatever the real cause behind its prominence.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

meridannight said:


> yeah, but that doesn't mean every 8 is 4-fixed. some are pretty low on 4, whether it can be more closely associated with 8s or not. for me, 4 is stronger than 2, 3, 1, or 5. that's how i meant it. its influence is recognizable, and it just so happens tritype neatly ''explains'' it in my case. whatever the real cause behind its prominence.


I'm in the same boat - as you know. Tritype explains me very well. I could devise explanations using 4w3 by itself - for example, a 2 disintegration will have power-hunger that looks 8-like; 4SX/SP is known to seem 7-like; 3 is an id-wing so I might seem more like an id type. But then why am I more pumped by conflict and invigorated by rage than other 4w3SX types? Why am I more in touch with my physical lust while they are focused mostly on the 'emotional components'? Why am I more narcissistic than other 4s? etc. It makes more sense with tritype.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Animal said:


> I'm in the same boat - as you know. Tritype explains me very well. I could devise explanations using 4w3 by itself - for example, a 2 disintegration will have power-hunger that looks 8-like; 4SX/SP is known to seem 7-like; 3 is an id-wing so I might seem more like an id type. But then why am I more pumped by conflict and invigorated by rage than other 4w3SX types? Why am I more in touch with my physical lust while they are focused mostly on the 'emotional components'? Why am I more narcissistic than other 4s? etc. It makes more sense with tritype.


But then you assume they are of the same tritype as opposed yourself. If by your own logic, then every 4 is rightfully unique therefore you have nothing to compare yourself to because every 4 is going to appear different to all other 4s. Not every 4 as you notice, is going to focus on this "emotional component". Why? Maybe because they, just like you, have a very unique flavor to their 4-ness. Perhaps even more likely if we are generalizing the type forums, is that people tend to take upon a specific group mentality that fits a commonly agreed upon archetype of how the type is like regardless of whether they are 4s or not. Hence, "all" 4s get more focused on this "emotional component" because they think this is what 4s "do". 

This is however, is a very different logic and deals with a different reality of type communities than what you actually presented here.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

ephemereality said:


> But then you assume they are of the same tritype as opposed yourself. If by your own logic, then every 4 is rightfully unique therefore you have nothing to compare yourself to because every 4 is going to appear different to all other 4s. Not every 4 as you notice, is going to focus on this "emotional component". Why? Maybe because they, just like you, have a very unique flavor to their 4-ness. Perhaps even more likely if we are generalizing the type forums, is that people tend to take upon a specific group mentality that fits a commonly agreed upon archetype of how the type is like regardless of whether they are 4s or not. Hence, "all" 4s get more focused on this "emotional component" because they think this is what 4s "do".
> 
> This is however, is a very different logic and deals with a different reality of type communities than what you actually presented here.


I have actually noticed trends among 4s with various fixes. For instance those who identify themselves as having id-fixes tend to be more confrontational, and those who don't, tend to be less confrontational. I can't attest that everybody is correctly typed, but I can break down why someone might instinctually act or feel a certain way based on the motives ascribed to that type or fix. So it would make sense, for instance, that a 9-fixer would be less likely to jump into conflict than an 8-fixer.

4s are not any more unique than any other type at base. A 4 is a 4 is a 4. It is just that 4s have a self-image which they feel is unique. The specific nature of one's self image is a separate topic from this thread, or from enneagram in general. For instance a musical person might have a self-image as a diva while a writer might have a more intellectual self-image. Or someone who has survived abuse might have a self-image that involves strength, regardless of their enneagram.

Personally, my sense of myself, which has grown to be my 'self-image' based on who I really am as well as who I have always wanted to be and thus, who I have become and the parts of myself that I've nourished the most, is actually influenced by components of my entire tritype, as well as functions, even before I knew enneagram or JCF. 

A lot of my self-image, which is based in reality, is tied into my trauma-survival and my aggression which comes from high testosterone - another thing that has nothing to do with enneagram - and also the kind of environment I grew up in.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Animal said:


> I have actually noticed trends among 4s with various fixes. For instance those who identify themselves as having id-fixes tend to be more confrontational, and those who don't, tend to be less confrontational. I can't attest that everybody is correctly typed, but I can break down why someone might instinctually act or feel a certain way based on the motives ascribed to that type or fix. So it would make sense, for instance, that a 9-fixer would be less likely to jump into conflict than an 8-fixer.
> 
> 4s are not any more unique than any other type at base. A 4 is a 4 is a 4. It is just that 4s have a self-image which they feel is unique. The specific nature of one's self image is a separate topic from this thread, or from enneagram in general. For instance a musical person might have a self-image as a diva while a writer might have a more intellectual self-image. Or someone who has survived abuse might have a self-image that involves strength, regardless of their enneagram.
> 
> Personally, my sense of myself, which has grown to be my 'self-image' based on who I really am as well as who I have always wanted to be and thus, who I have become and the parts of myself that I've nourished the most, is actually influenced by components of my entire tritype, as well as functions, even before I knew enneagram or JCF. When I break down the motives, it matches the behavior because I am true to myself.


What I was claiming was actually the other way around of what you state here, but ok.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

I think the tritype concept is fun, but unnecessary. I do enjoy the freedom of a tritype, adding layers to an already layered personality theory, but sometimes it can get too convoluted and misleading.


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## lifefullofwords (Oct 25, 2013)

I don't think Enneagram even works as a system without taking tritype into consideration. The idea that each of us are only driven by one motivation throughout our entire lives is laughable. That's why tritype, along with wings and points of integration & disintegration are so important if you want to understand yourself or another person via the lens of Enneagram. I buy tritype way more than I buy the idea that there are only 9 motivations.


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

lifefullofwords said:


> I don't think Enneagram even works as a system without taking tritype into consideration. The idea that each of us are only driven by one motivation throughout our entire lives is laughable. That's why tritype, along with wings and points of integration & disintegration are so important if you want to understand yourself or another person via the lens of Enneagram. I buy tritype way more than I buy the idea that there are only 9 motivations.



i very much agree with this. however my problem with tritype is the fact that the other triads get discarded at all. we're only using the gut-head-image triad classification, but what about the others? are they less ''legit'' then? i think there's merit to promoting thinking about your enneagram as a spectrum rather than one single type, but i don't know if the current ''spectral analysis'' gets it exactly right yet. it could use a little tuning. 

for example, i could also just as well, if not more, go by ''879''. there is a certain clear 9 influence in me. my core directly counteracts and overrides a lot of that 9, but there is this exchange of the two i feel in me. some of my behavior could directly be described by the complex interdynamics between types 8 and 9. whether you term the thing as ''inferior wing'', ''874 with an 8-9 axis'', ''tritype 879'', or something else altogether is, in the end, just mathematics. and maybe there is no unifying formula underneath it that applies for everybody. but the idea is to be aware of these extra-core nuances. tritype at least achieves that partly.

but of course, the more layers you add, the more complex the whole thing gets, the more chance to mistype, or misunderstand something. so there's also that.





Animal said:


> A lot of my self-image, which is based in reality, is tied into my trauma-survival and my aggression which comes from high testosterone - another thing that has nothing to do with enneagram - and also the kind of environment I grew up in.


actually, studies have found no correlation between testosterone and aggression. it's a cliché by now. you saying you're more aggressive because you have more testosterone (did you get your levels tested and compared to reference?) is like saying you're Caucasian because you never went out into the sun. the sun does account for some minor tonal characteristic of the skin, but race is in the genes. i don't know how much of aggression is in the genes, but the connection with testosterone is obsolete. it gets thrown around a lot in the mainstream, and it's one of those popular beliefs, but there is no scientific basis to such claims.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

meridannight said:


> actually, studies have found no correlation between testosterone and aggression. it's a cliché by now. you saying you're more aggressive because you have more testosterone (did you get your levels tested and compared to reference?) is like saying you're Caucasian because you never went out into the sun. the sun does account for some minor tonal characteristic of the skin, but race is in the genes. i don't know how much of aggression is in the genes, but the connection with testosterone is obsolete. it gets thrown around a lot in the mainstream, and it's one of those popular beliefs, but there is no scientific basis to such claims.


Yes, I was tested because I am female and I was going bald, male pattern baldness looked very similar to what was happening to me. My doctor tested my testosterone and it was too high and he lowered it. Then my hair grew back in the spots where it was balding. My energy was lower after that and so was my aggression and sex drive which was previously over the top. All three or four doctors I consulted told me it was related. Not that they needed to tell me because the difference was easily observable. 

If someone's hormones are out of whack it does affect their behavior and the way they feel. Whether all people are more aggressive due to higher or lower level testosterone, I don't know; but what I do know is that if you have too much of a hormone it can throw you off and cause mood issues, aggression, lack of aggression, too much or too little energy etc. My male friend had more mood issues because his testosterone was too low, and once his doctor raised it, his moods were more stable, so it goes both ways, but I was referring to my specific case when I said that I might have typed myself based on other problems that weren't enneagram related. Lyme disease caused hormone issues which affected the way I feel, the way I behave, and the way I see myself, and I've had Lyme all my life even if it wasn't diagnosed until I was in my teens.

I've learned as I've studied enneagram more, that certain things need to be factored in that aren't related to type. For instance someone who had issues like I just described, might seem 8ish but they're not an 8. Someone with depression might feel 4ish but they're not a 4. A person with anxiety disorder might feel like a 6 but they're not. And so forth. That's all I was saying; I was not making some blanket statement about the science of testosterone - only about what happened to me personally. It's very easy to conflate mental or physical illness with enneatype and the two are unrelated.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Flatlander said:


> The 7 and 5 are going to fit together somehow to point to your actual core or perhaps even just one of your fixes. Rule of thumb: feeling two influences in the same center means either that one or neither is correct as the center.
> 
> For example, let's take someone who feels like they embody two and four behaviors and points of view. Possibilities: They are a two that feels the influence of their soul child at four; they are a four that feels the stress influence at two; they are centered at three and are failing to see themselves in the core. The link between two and four makes a strong possibility that they are one or the other, but the center at three is also plausible in this case because the type is especially prone to believing in an image of themself.
> 
> ...


There are times that I relate to 6 as well but not as much as 5,4, and 7. The point that I was trying to make is that I'm having trouble relating to tritype since I relate more to 5,4 and 7 than I do to 8,9, or 1. Anyway, I am not dismissing tritype but I do think that I raised a valid point regarding no Enneagram authors - save the Fauvres - don't even touch upon it and if it was as central to Enneagram theory, as some people on PerC perceive it to be; then why aren't there any Enneagram books discussing it? That is not to say that it's not valid but I find it curious that all of the Enneagram books that I've read - some very published very recently - don't even seem to be even be aware of the existence of tritype theory.


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## autodelusional (Dec 16, 2013)

I consider like many other that the tritype theory is usless and just gets It's validation from those who are confuse about his maintype or consider themselves being too complex for having just one main type. Actions, character, and habits can produce some confusion about a Sexual 3 being a four. A sexual for being an 8 A person who is having so much fun at some moment or like to do funny things being a seven. But after all the most important thing in this theory is the motivations, and in the end if You're patient and insistent enough will end discovering that each person have just One core motivation, and not two or three.


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

Animal said:


> Yes, I was tested because I am female and I was going bald, male pattern baldness looked very similar to what was happening to me. My doctor tested my testosterone and it was too high and he lowered it.


OK. i thought you were just surmising. never mind me then.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

In the sort of most basic level, I'd think of tritype as some way to organize how you see instinctual, image and head influences playing out in you. Beyond that, you can decide probably some fashion in which to utilize it in a more refined/precise way that is enlightening if so chosen.

For example, if you relate not so great to 8, 9 and 1 that's still useful tritype-ish data -- it still points to data tritype would classify, which is what category of the three runs last. And then, you could use that data somehow, e.g. why do you relate so little to any of the gut center, what does that tell you about how the core/other fix work in yourself, etc. 

If 5 and 7 both resonate, like was already written earlier, is this because they share a line, or is there additional data to be gained there?

There was in a certain post a mention of the idea of fluidly observing the playing-out of the various 9 types, which is fine and probably a perfectly valid exercise. My response to that was essentially though, well, why do we study enneagram? We _are_ influenced from 9 points in a sense. But, we are influenced unequally -- one type dominates, effectively pointing to one of three _centers_ dominating. A big power of the enneagram is it organizes these inequalities, and in that spirit, tritype is no different, albeit perhaps more decorated than it needs to be, that depends on one's needs really. One simple question of tritype, beyond actually picking 3 of 9 types, is simply (as I alluded above) organizing the relative influence of each center in some fashion, and I think that's pretty useful self-observation. Maybe it'll point to a blindspot. Maybe this organizational exercise will suggest something else about one's relation to other types. Maybe it won't be important in the slightest, who knows.

I certainly think the option of sticking to core type and simply not finding much need to find other types is valid -- the level of applicability of the 3-center model will differ among people.

Should also say, I myself expressed that the idea of just jumping from center to center when one strategy doesn't work seems possibly a bit naive (although to be sure, I think one actually can observe this sort of tendency in some people to varying degrees).
That said, sometimes when an idea is first conceived the theory constructed from it isn't ideal, but the idea might still be utilized.


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

TreasureTower said:


> There are times that I relate to 6 as well but not as much as 5,4, and 7. The point that I was trying to make is that I'm having trouble relating to tritype since I relate more to 5,4 and 7 than I do to 8,9, or 1. Anyway, I am not dismissing tritype but I do think that I raised a valid point regarding no Enneagram authors - save the Fauvres - don't even touch upon it and if it was as central to Enneagram theory, as some people on PerC perceive it to be; then why aren't there any Enneagram books discussing it? That is not to say that it's not valid but I find it curious that all of the Enneagram books that I've read - some very published very recently - don't even seem to be even be aware of the existence of tritype theory.


Enneagram authors, for the most part, aren't approaching this with any less subjectivity than anyone on this forum. Some of them bring in related expertise in psychology or other fields, but they are still working subjectively with a subjective system, and many of them are simply passing on what they learned in a new form or added to in a new way. 

Intellectual progress through books and publications has traditionally been slow, I expect, because publishing a book is a lot of effort and it {sells better/is perceived better/works better/etc.} to go with a tried and true topic just put in another form, with maybe a little bit of original thinking added. Actually putting a radically new divergence from tradition out there via published work takes more guts and isn't as likely to be accepted or dealt with by the mainstream. The Fauvres may not have fleshed out their concept in the best way, but they deserve props on some level for doing this, expanding preliminarily on what options are available within the body of Enneagram constructs.

Now, let's contrast this with how forums work. Forums are full of individuals, many of whom are amateur thinkers in the fields they are trying to learn about or associate with. Each of us also brings in a body of alternate expertise or thinking to contribute to what we learn or do with the topic at hand. This breeds more of a diversity of thought and you're more likely to see people theorize about a topic in new ways and hence create fresh thinking for the table.

I don't see this as _bad_, I see it as _different_. Each paradigm has its place, and if we didn't have people who built slowly or incrementally on bodies of knowledge like the proper enneagram authors, we would have less of a depth of food for thought to use on this forum. I do not disfavor the nature of the ideas people put forth on a forum like this, though, I just put them in their proper context and choose which seem to make the most sense to me to add to my body of concepts to play with and use.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

> Actually putting a radically new divergence from tradition out there via published work takes more guts and isn't as likely to be accepted or dealt with by the mainstream.




This.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

And this - 



> I just put them in their proper context and choose which seem to make the most sense to me to add to my body of concepts to play with and use.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

@Flatlander and @bearotter, I do see your point but it doesn't help to make the theory very accessible to me as aspects of it that I can find in the books. If I only relied on PerC for my info; I would still be struggling with figuring out my core and wing. The fact is, that the books - however "cowardly" and/or conservative you may deem them to are in my experience one of the most helpful sources for figuring out and understanding your type; the other is to acquaint yourselves of people identified as yours or other types. When it comes to absolutely anything in typology, I always periodically question my type; hell I do that with my Nichiren Buddhist faith, my ethics, beliefs out the world, etc. and then I seek information to get clarity. In the case of the Enneagram, I do that mostly through the various books that I've purchased. Had I solely relied on PerC, I would have long given up on it. The most helpful thing about the Enneagram books is the way that they tie all of the aspects of the theory together and the fact that none of those authors are discussing trutype theory doesn't help make it accessible to me. It's akin to a new Beta version of an app; it may well be the next greatest thing since sliced bread but first, you need to get rid of all of the bugs.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@_TreasureTower_ - well I'm the last to say take the words of Per-C on faith. There are heaps and piles of utter bullshit spewed here. 

If anything, my take is you have already done all this learning on enneagram, and tritype is at best an extension. In so much as it truly contradicts the main theory, it probably shouldn't be applied that way. That said, if it can be made to work with some depth, by sort of shifting around what is going on with the established literature, why not? 

Per-C is a way to mix and match concepts and see maybe helpful ways of thinking of the theory we've already got some basic ideas of. 

I also think most "bugs" come from actually seeing the grounding of the theory in reality. And that is true even when the theory is pretty solid of its own right. Like with the MBTI --- are there no bugs there? Yes and no. Who can ever claim that 16 type profiles will actually encapsulate someone fully? It's ridiculous to think so. Where lack of clarity occurs is when we wind up attempting to fit ourselves to a best fit, because here, our understanding of the _tenets_ of the theory, rather than the type profiles, is what is being employed (hopefully! if not, then that's the first thing to correct). And little issues keep needing to be corrected (the principles of the theory are clear, but their grounding in reality is something we each have to find a way to reconcile with) -- issues whose correction I find is not always evident from what the basic literature would suggest, and that's where discussion is needed, either with others or at least with oneself.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

bearotter said:


> @_TreasureTower_ - well I'm the last to say take the words of Per-C on faith. There are heaps and piles of utter bullshit spewed here.
> 
> If anything, my take is you have already done all this learning on enneagram, and tritype is at best an extension. In so much as it truly contradicts the main theory, it probably shouldn't be applied that way. That said, if it can be made to work with some depth, by sort of shifting around what is going on with the established literature, why not?
> 
> ...


I guess my point is and the reason why I created this thread: is that at the present time; I am not finding tritype theory either useful or helpful. I don't know if it because I don't relate at all to the gut centre or in the case of my heart fix; what is the difference between how my 4 wing affects me, as opposed to 4 as my heart fix? See, when I try to make any sense of this; I just keep going around in circles.

Honestly speaking; I find tritype theory as meaningful to me as astrology. I really don't see it as all that different for DCNH in Socionics as opposed to Model A but in that case; the reason has more to do with not fully understanding the concept: DCNH, then how to apply it: tritype.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@_TreasureTower_ sure; I think plenty of decent answers came up on the thread as to various forms of perspective of how people see tritype. I don't see tritype as particularly more of an innovation than wings or any other such thing. Part of the reason there is I don't see it as a separate story. There's just one theory - enneagram. Tritype at best is an extension.


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

TreasureTower said:


> @_Flatlander_ and @_bearotter_, I do see your point but it doesn't help to make the theory very accessible to me as aspects of it that I can find in the books.


So question. When I explained how tritype theory works (in my formulation) above, was _that_ inaccessible to you?

What makes it different from what you read in books? What makes a theory accessible to you - detail?



> If I only relied on PerC for my info; I would still be struggling with figuring out my core and wing.


The point is not to only rely on PerC for info.



> The fact is, that the books - however "cowardly" and/or conservative you may deem them to are in my experience one of the most helpful sources for figuring out and understanding your type;


Cowardly? I said no such thing. I think you read into what I wrote in a way I did not intend.

Conservative? Yes, but as I mentioned, conservativism is not a bad thing in and of itself here. It depends on what you're looking for, and books and other established works have an important place in the bigger picture.



> the other is to acquaint yourselves of people identified as yours or other types.


This is also potentially quite misleading, since people identified as types may be mistyped or may not act archetypally for other reasons. Getting a clear read on others' cognition and motivation is a matter of your thinking and/or others' own internal clarity. You can't always rely on the latter, and you have to be good at seeing through others for the former, which won't always compensate even if you are.



> When it comes to absolutely anything in typology, I always periodically question my type; hell I do that with my Nichiren Buddhist faith, my ethics, beliefs out the world, etc. and then I seek information to get clarity. In the case of the Enneagram, I do that mostly through the various books that I've purchased. Had I solely relied on PerC, I would have long given up on it. The most helpful thing about the Enneagram books is the way that they tie all of the aspects of the theory together and the fact that none of those authors are discussing trutype theory doesn't help make it accessible to me. It's akin to a new Beta version of an app; it may well be the next greatest thing since sliced bread but first, you need to get rid of all of the bugs.


Whee. So you don't know how to deal with new ideas that diverge from what you've read?

Depth is something you have the capacity to create as you start to understand something. If you seek to have the world supply all the substance for you instead, you're probably not going to go for tritype theory for reasons you've already said. I could write up a tome on what I think of it but I don't have the time to, nor would I want to go into insane detail with the way I see it for all the iterations of type like some authors will do.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

What I've been trying to say as succinctly as possible is: based on what I know and understand about tritype theory and my attempt to apply it to myself - unlike the other aspects of Enneagram theory; have not thus far, been fruitful. It simply does not make sense to me on an EXPDERIENTIAL level.

It seems far more useful to me, for me to observe my levels of integration/disintegration, stress/security points/wings/ inscinctual variants, my core fears, the influence of my heavy 4 wing all play out then confusing myself by awkwardly attempting to apply tritype theory to it. IOW, I intellectually get it but at any meaningful level; it does absolutely nothing for me.

In fact, I've been studying the Enneagram for years and I knew over ten years ago that I was either a 5 with a heavy 4 wing or a 4 with a heavy 5 wing but it was completely unhelpful for me until; I developed awareness of my core fear, vice etc and how my E type manifested in me. Ten years ago, I could have easily explained the theory behind the Enneagram - INTELLECTUALLY but not had the remotest clue how it actually worked. IOW, back then; the Enneagram all albeit fascinating to me, was for all practical purposes, pretty much useless.

Now, I actually understand the theory at a deep experiential level and unlike the traditional theory, when it concerns tritype; I am unable to apply it to me and to make the leap from dry, intellectual understanding, to practical application.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

For sake of discussion, can you expand on what you mean by this: 



TreasureTower said:


> It simply does not make sense to me on an EXPDERIENTIAL level.




What does make sense about enneagram otherwise, and what seems to not make sense about tritype on an experiential level? Or to put it a different way, could you articulate some sort of principle characterizing what about the part of the enneagram you do find useful makes sense on an experiential level?


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## lifefullofwords (Oct 25, 2013)

meridannight said:


> i very much agree with this. however my problem with tritype is the fact that the other triads get discarded at all. we're only using the gut-head-image triad classification, but what about the others? are they less ''legit'' then? i think there's merit to promoting thinking about your enneagram as a spectrum rather than one single type, but i don't know if the current ''spectral analysis'' gets it exactly right yet. it could use a little tuning.


Yeah, I agree. In my opinion tritype is best understood not as the three types that fit you both (in that case I'd be a 453) but rather as the types from each triad that fit you best. I think everyone has a fix from all three triads because we all needs to use our heart, our brain, and our gut. But I prefer to see each of us on a spectrum when it comes to each type. I think that allows for more complete analysis than tritype.



Animal said:


> I've learned as I've studied enneagram more, that certain things need to be factored in that aren't related to type. For instance someone who had issues like I just described, might seem 8ish but they're not an 8. Someone with depression might feel 4ish but they're not a 4. A person with anxiety disorder might feel like a 6 but they're not. And so forth. That's all I was saying; I was not making some blanket statement about the science of testosterone - only about what happened to me personally. It's very easy to conflate mental or physical illness with enneatype and the two are unrelated.


So true. I used to think I had a 6 fix instead of a 5 fix because I'm anxious a lot of the time. But clinical problems need to be separated from personality type. I'm not a 4 because I've experienced prolonged periods of depression, I'm a 4 because my main goal in life is expressing my inner self. It's definitely very easy to confuse the two though.


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

TreasureTower said:


> what is the difference between how my 4 wing affects me, as opposed to 4 as my heart fix? See, when I try to make any sense of this; I just keep going around in circles.


I think this is a really important question. You're not the only one who has struggled with it - @_Animal_, @_LeoCat_, I believe @_meridiannight_ (?), and others here have either commented on this part of the theory, or mistyped/questioned type because of it at some point. 

Katherine Fauvre's answer is that when you have a case in which your core type's wing is your next fix, it's "very easy to identify" what the fix is. I don't think that answer cuts the cheese. For some, it's only that obvious once you know the rest of your tritype, certainly not before, to the person him/herself.


It's pretty tempting to try and flesh out specific behaviors or attitudes you take on as they come, and try and plot them to the tritype model. I don't think that approach works very well, because it is difficult to know where to plot what. Have you looked into the tritype blind spots? What worked for me was to notice a time I was in the grip of the blind spot, _then _identify which types were at play/creating the narrowed perspective.


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

@Figure pointed this out.



TreasureTower said:


> what is the difference between how my 4 wing affects me, as opposed to 4 as my heart fix? See, when I try to make any sense of this; I just keep going around in circles.


I have a 7 wing and a fix. as a result of being both a wing and a fix, 7 has a really exaggerated influence. at least that's how i experience it. i've been taken for a 7 by a number of people, and you mentioned you felt as though being either a 4 with a heavy 5 wing or a 5 with a heavy 4 wing. maybe that's how wing+fix combination manifests. for me it's pretty much the same. the 7 influence is strong enough to type as a 7. either 8w7 or a 7w8; both would fit on the outside. i don't know what else to say, i'm not really good at in-depth analysis.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

bearotter said:


> For sake of discussion, can you expand on what you mean by this:
> 
> It is the difference between understanding the theory as a general concept and knowing how to actually apply it.
> 
> ...





Figure said:


> Have you looked into the tritype blind spots? What worked for me was to notice a time I was in the grip of the blind spot, then identify which types were at play/creating the narrowed perspective.


Could you please elaborate more on this? 



meridannight said:


> @Figure pointed this out.
> I have a 7 wing and a fix. as a result of being both a wing and a fix, 7 has a really exaggerated influence. at least that's how i experience it. i've been taken for a 7 by a number of people, and you mentioned you felt as though being either a 4 with a heavy 5 wing or a 5 with a heavy 4 wing. maybe that's how wing+fix combination manifests. for me it's pretty much the same. the 7 influence is strong enough to type as a 7. either 8w7 or a 7w8; both would fit on the outside. i don't know what else to say, i'm not really good at in-depth analysis.


Hmmmm . . . that's really interesting cuz I was reading Mairti's book and when I read the description for type 5; I went yeah, that totally describes me and then I had the same reaction for types 4 and 7, as well. None of the others really made any sense to me. So yeah, being a 5w4 and a 4w5 heart fix would make perfect sense but I have trouble relating to the gut fix.

I know I am a 5, since my number one fear is that I feel at some subconscious sense that it is possible for others to destroy me with their hostility.; so it is fear of others' hostility, as opposed to fear of being shamed that drives me. I am too withdrawn to be a core 7 but I relate to having a kind of repressed gluttony.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@_TreasureTower_ --- you ask for a bit more elaboration. Let me see, I think what I'm getting at is related to things you say like this:



> but I have trouble relating to the gut fix.




What do you mean by trouble relating? To the very idea of being fixated in the instinctual center? To the mechanisms that tend to be ascribed to it? 

In less direct terms, what characterizes that which about the enneagram as you employ it seems to make sense on an experiential level, which seems to simply "not compute" when you look at the tritype theory, making it seem more like empty symbolic ideas pasted together in an intellectually coherent fashion than a reality (which I gather is how you are experiencing it at the moment)?



I would second your request to get @_Figure_ to say a bit more about how a tritype blind spot paradigm is affecting him. Would be interesting to see. 

I'd also be interested in hearing thoughts elaborating what about the concept of having a fix in a given center has led to lack of clarity when confused with the concept of having a wing. 

To me, these are really separate paradigms at work. Being afflicted in 3 centers is its own separate factor in application of enneagram theory, whereas wings serve to me more to designate how the human personality doesn't have to fit squarely into a discrete point on the spectrum of the enneagram, leading to certain leanings.

So to me, the idea that suddenly the lines of connection of the enneagram invalidate the concept of such a multifaceted type theory doesn't quite ring a bell -- rather, the lines of connection, wings, etc etc serve to highlight the intricacies and conceptual features of each of 9 afflictions in relation to the others, and this subtlety exists whether one works with 3 types or not.

However, someone posted earlier that the direct presentation of "moving from center to center in a linear fashion when one fails" flattens out the enneagram, and here I'd agree -- that's probably not my preferred understanding, as I've now beaten to death in clarification.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

bearotter said:


> @_TreasureTower_ --- you ask for a bit more elaboration. Let me see, I think what I'm getting at is related to things you say like this:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean by trouble relating? To the very idea of being fixated in the instinctual center? To the mechanisms that tend to be ascribed to it?




Well, partially that. I don't really understand what is the difference between the fluctuations of the core types to stress and security and how that relates to the different centre fixes. I also see myself as being so heavily identified with the head and heart centres that I feel very out of touch with what it even means to act from the gut centre and how that differentiates once again from how a core 5 would act. 



bearotter said:


> In less direct terms, what characterizes that which about the enneagram as you employ it seems to make sense on an experiential level, which seems to simply "not compute" when you look at the tritype theory, making it seem more like empty symbolic ideas pasted together in an intellectually coherent fashion than a reality (which I gather is how you are experiencing it at the moment)?


Well, I sort of do get in to that a bit above: I really don't understand how I am in any given situation behaving as a 5w4 as opposed to acting from the other fixes; which I guess in my case would be 4w5 and (I think) 9w8?.



bearotter said:


> I would second your request to get @_Figure_ to say a bit more about how a tritype blind spot paradigm is affecting him. Would be interesting to see.
> 
> I'd also be interested in hearing thoughts elaborating what about the concept of having a fix in a given center has led to lack of clarity when confused with the concept of having a wing.


I'm not sure but sometimes my behaviour is 4ish but how is that different from having a strong 4 wing as opposed to having a 4 fix. Then again, sometimes I can act like a 7; so *throws arms up*  



bearotter said:


> To me, these are really separate paradigms at work. Being afflicted in 3 centers is its own separate factor in application of enneagram theory, whereas wings serve to me more to designate how the human personality doesn't have to fit squarely into a discrete point on the spectrum of the enneagram, leading to certain leanings.


It would be extremely helpful if you could elaborate on this.



bearotter said:


> So to me, the idea that suddenly the lines of connection of the enneagram invalidate the concept of such a multifaceted type theory doesn't quite ring a bell -- rather, *the lines of connection, wings, etc etc serve to highlight the intricacies and conceptual features of each of 9 afflictions in relation to the others, and this subtlety exists whether one works with 3 types or not.
> *
> However, someone posted earlier that the direct presentation of "moving from center to center in a linear fashion when one fails" flattens out the enneagram, and here I'd agree -- that's probably not my preferred understanding, as I've now beaten to death in clarification.


See, the two above sentences thoroughly confuse me and that is what I am struggling most, when it comes to making sense of tritype.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

TreasureTower said:


> I know I am a 5, since my number one fear is that I feel at some subconscious sense that it is possible for others to destroy me with their hostility.; so it is fear of others' hostility, as opposed to fear of being shamed that drives me.


Hmm, that sounds kind of 9ish. Are you sure you don't relate much to that type?



> I am too withdrawn to be a core 7 but I relate to having a kind of repressed gluttony.


What do you mean by too withdrawn? You can be very socially introverted and still be a 7 for example, but maybe you don't feel a lot of Id-influence?


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

I'm not one into writing Great text Wall of Chinas on personal monologues, but here is a scenario in which I view my tritype, 147 (specifically 7-1-4), as having circulated. The blind spot and growing edge for all variants of 147 is, according to the Fauvres:



> Your blind spot is that you can be so identified with your idealistic zeal for utopia that you may seem rigid in your manner, and inflexible in your standards. You can become very critical of anything that is under your standards.





> Your growing edge is to realize that your search for ideal circumstances is unrealistic and limiting you from enjoying and appreciating what is available and meaningful in the moment. Idealism is a subjective concept. True perfection comes from being present to what is eternal and not limited by standards


Generally speaking, I haven't had a major screwup in my life (or been caught), but when I was in college I did unsuccessfully try to major in accounting for two years. The purpose, via SP 7, was to get a guaranteed job after graduation, and to have a unique approach to strategy consulting later. My mind is not naturally wired to be an accountant (no Ni dom would be), but instead of moving to something else, I forced myself to keep with it for years despite mediocre performance in courses, depression, and wild escapades outside school to compensate. Like SP 7's, I wanted a quick fix. Like 1's, I pressed myself out of emotional reaction and forced myself to continue for fear of having made the wrong decision. Like a 4, something didn't seem fair, that everyone else was able to do something I was simply mediocre at. 

My blind spot was that my professional vision was very narrow and unrealistic given what I am good at, and that other options weren't as inferior as I had assumed. Ideally, my plan would have been great. Realistically, it was basically impossible given the setting. But there is always a drive to do what is unrealistic anyway and deal with the consequences. 


I find that this previously unconscious problem - having an excessively idealistic vision of what something ought to be, then pressing myself to do something that cannot/should not be done to the point of (triple) frustration - is _always _a factor when I am in a bad mental state. Even in everyday situations, I've been able to now identify times when I'm subconsciously envious of what someone else is doing, or pushing myself too hard to fit square pegs into round holes, all through re-framing and re-thinking. I had to really pinpoint what my Gut and Heart centers were doing when my Head wasn't leading alone, but once that happened, there was a clear recurring thicket I fall into every time. The way I respond to difficulty is to rapidly search for logical answers, stick things out as necessary to manifest them, and indulge in the emotional depth that seems to arise from it.


Ideally (heh), though I feel compelled to be very sure, there is a recurring pattern to everyone here's ways of dealing with things like this too XD


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@_TreasureTower_

The hard part about tritypes is understanding what it means by having 3 types (and to be honest, most of the "tritype nay" answers on this thread seem to be essentially barfing at the idea of an answer rendering one's fixations and defense mechanisms proceeding and/or manifesting through some kind of linear progression) -- that said, to me on a certain level, I don't see why it's terribly much harder than saying that one has a single type; the practical difficulty, which you no doubt are running to, is we tend to be less aware of how other centers are affecting us aside from the top one, or two maybe. I tend to agree with presentations that say these three really "fuse" to give you some sort of "actual" type. As to what you wanted elaboration on, the hard part about that is first you'd need to pin down in what sense you experience a central affliction in each center that you kind of corner yourself into time and again. I do _not_ think you'll necessarily act perceptibly through the centers in a fashion equal enough to see something as simple as "when I'm in stress, my behaviors act through the defense mechanisms of so and so type" ... although to be honest, I'm not sure I view it that way even with the single-type theory -- to know what you _will_ see, you have to pin down how the additional fixes play with the core type, and then you might experience in what sense the rest of the enneagram structure influences. 

But I guess the naive answer would be, if the 3 types operated independent of each other, neither functioning through a core nor influencing each other, each would "separately" follow the laws of the enneagram. As this is obviously not what's going to happen, the answer will have to be more complicated and somewhat case-specific. I have thought of some general patterns as to how they might complicate, but still think it's best to do this part case by case. 

To be clear:



> thoroughly confuse me and that is what I am struggling most




Me too. Although, I'm not more confident of my understanding of enneagram overall than of tritype, necessarily.


When you say that you don't see yourself employing the _mechanisms_​ of the gut center, that kind of makes sense (relatively speaking --- since you currently are analyzing how you coherently respond to your fixations, it would make sense that the responses would take on the character of one of the 3 centers...by virtue of the coherence).


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Nonsense said:


> Hmm, that sounds kind of 9ish. Are you sure you don't relate much to that type?
> 
> 
> What do you mean by too withdrawn? You can be very socially introverted and still be a 7 for example, but maybe you don't feel a lot of Id-influence?


No, I am not a 9 (despite how badly certain people *cough* Ephemerality *cough*, may want me to be). I am not other oriented, I never have trouble saying "no" and I obsessively guard my boundaries.

I don't think I am a 7 because I am both socially and cognitively introverted and my major fears are being engulfed by the outside world, being useless and unable to keep myself safe. I think on some level, I would like to be a 7 but I tend to get overwhelmed when I am in 7ish mode.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

@Figure, here are parts of the tritype test, that I took awhile back:


*Your Report Summary*:
Top ranked Enneacard overall: Type 5
Top Ranked Enneacard in your Enneaspread: Type 4
Potential Wing(s): 4, 6
Potential Tritype: 549
--------------------------------------------------------------------

*You have all three Head Type Enneacards*
(Enneagram Types: 5, 6 & 7) in your Enneaspread.
You are a knowledgeable, intellectual and visionary person. Your primary issues are aversion, projection and a focus on authority. You struggle with preconceptions and the fear of separation from others. Whether or not you overtly express it, you are motivated by and take action when you feel fear and anxiety. Fearing chaos and your ability to cope with it, you seek reassurance, whether in a theology, a philosophy or a kind word. As a child, you often felt you lacked trustworthy and consistent guidance. You want to be clear-minded and certain.

Enneacard pairs: 6, 7

Potential Wing: 4, 6
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*You have all three Reflective Solutions Enneacards*
(Enneagram Types: 4, 5 & 9) in your Tritype.
Naturally reserved and reflective, you see yourself as intuitive, introspective, perceptive and thoughtful. Responsible and diligent, you resist taking action that is not first well considered and thought out. You dislike making sudden changes and prefer to take time to think things through before acting. When opposed, you tend to take a step back or move away from others to evaluate your circumstances to manage problems.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm really not sure what my "blind spot" might be outside of not believing in myself? *shrug*


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

bearotter said:


> @_TreasureTower_
> 
> The hard part about tritypes is understanding what it means by having 3 types (and to be honest, most of the "tritype nay" answers on this thread seem to be essentially barfing at the idea of an answer rendering one's fixations and defense mechanisms proceeding and/or manifesting through some kind of linear progression) -- that said, to me on a certain level, I don't see why it's terribly much harder than saying that one has a single type; the practical difficulty, which you no doubt are running to, is we tend to be less aware of how other centers are affecting us aside from the top one, or two maybe. I tend to agree with presentations that say these three really "fuse" to give you some sort of "actual" type. As to what you wanted elaboration on, the hard part about that is first you'd need to pin down in what sense you experience a central affliction in each center that you kind of corner yourself into time and again. I do _not_ think you'll necessarily act perceptibly through the centers in a fashion equal enough to see something as simple as "when I'm in stress, my behaviors act through the defense mechanisms of so and so type" ... although to be honest, I'm not sure I view it that way even with the single-type theory -- to know what you _will_ see, you have to pin down how the additional fixes play with the core type, and then you might experience in what sense the rest of the enneagram structure influences.
> 
> ...


Yes, I can see how both the head and heart centres operates; although that is also confusing as my heart fix (4w5) is the same in reverse, of my core (5w4). I quoted parts of the Fauvre test I took awhile ago but type 9 was way down on that list - after 5,4,6, and 7; so it makes sense that I would have trouble relating to it.


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## spiderfrommars (Feb 22, 2012)

TreasureTower said:


> No, I am not a 9 (despite how badly certain people *cough* Ephemerality *cough*, may want me to be). I am not other oriented, I never have trouble saying "no" and I obsessively guard my boundaries.


Wait, why does your signature say 9w8?


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

spiderfrommars said:


> Wait, why does your signature say 9w8?


Because, I'm guessing that's my gut fix. 5w4 4w5 9w8. I go back and fourth between 9w8, 9w1 and 1w2 for gut fix but I am really clear on 5w4 for head and 4w5 for heart, however.


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