# INFJ Gone Bad - Any Advice for an INTJ?



## Raven Tea (Nov 30, 2014)

Schizoid said:


> If you have already tried that approach, then maybe it's time to try other approaches.
> 
> I have a few solutions for this issue:
> 
> ...


Question: Her birthday is coming up on the 12th. I was planning on buying some flowers for her, and maybe some other gift. She likes flowers, but doesn't everyone? What "love language" would you say is most accurate for an INTJ? I don't feel comfortable doing "nice" things, my feeling function is Fi, and it is inferior, so Fe related stuff just doesn't come naturally. Never the less, what would you say would most appeal to her Fe? Gifts? Hugs? *shudders* Nice words? A letter?


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## Schizoid (Jan 31, 2015)

Raven Tea said:


> Question: Her birthday is coming up on the 12th. I was planning on buying some flowers for her, and maybe some other gift. She likes flowers, but doesn't everyone? What "love language" would you say is most accurate for an INFJ? I don't feel comfortable doing "nice" things, my feeling function is Fi, and it is inferior, so Fe related stuff just doesn't come naturally. Honestly, I "express" my love for a person by thinking about them, I am not as likely to act. Never the less, what would you say would most appeal to her Fe? Gifts? Hugs? *shudders* Nice words? A letter?



As an INFJ myself, I love gifts. I feel loved when people went all the way out to notice what I like, and then they buy that particular gift for me. I am always the one doing this for others, how nice it would be if someone can do this for me in return. 
So I think a gift would be sufficient for your INFJ sister. She would be so glad that you noticed what she liked. And of course, after buying her that flowers, maybe you can also write her some nice words on a birthday card:

To my precious little sister: 

Happy birthday to you! Even though there are times when we will fight with each other and have misunderstandings, but I just wanna let you know that you are my precious sister and I will always love you and care about you no matter what happens. If you ever find yourself feeling down and need a listening ear or need someone to rely on, don't be afraid to lean on me. 

Lots of love,
your dearest sis


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## Raven Tea (Nov 30, 2014)

Schizoid said:


> As an INFJ myself, I love gifts. I feel loved when people went all the way out to notice what I like, and then they buy that particular gift for me. I am always the one doing this for others, how nice it would be if someone can do this for me in return.
> So I think a gift would be sufficient for your INFJ sister. She would be so glad that you noticed what she liked. And of course, after buying her that flowers, maybe you can also write her some nice words on a birthday card:
> 
> To my precious little sister:
> ...


Yeah, that sounds about right. Thank you for the card example; that is incredibly helpful! I sometimes have no clue as to how to give emotional support; I am better at distributing wake-up slaps and even pep talks, but that just seems to annoy certain people. 

Unlike my sister, I feel loved when people clean. When everyone does their chores in a timely, efficient manner, I feel truly happy. My sisters hate this, because my birthday and Christmas wishlists only include things such as "clean the kitchen", "buy be a mop", or "dust the house", etc...they don't feel appreciated or respected since all this implies that they are messy (which they are), but honestly I am just a neat-freak and I have high standards 

Ugh, I am going to feel so awkward being all "nice" on her birthday...I am generally perceived as constantly grumpy or annoyed since I am critical and terse, and I don't openly express any kind of emotion. I have no concept of how to spend "quality time" with a Feeler (although it is easy to do so with other Thinkers); she might perceive my actions as dumping a gift on her and then leaving to go...clean something...


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## Carla Rose (Feb 28, 2013)

How did things go?


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## Raven Tea (Nov 30, 2014)

Well, her birthday was good. I made an elegant ice cream cake and got her a potted rose plant, and she liked that. I haven't talked to anybody about her violence yet...I am still waiting for the best opportunity. Even if I said something now, it wouldn't work because it is still too close to her birthday (and Valentine's Day), and my ESFJ mom wouldn't be able to get herself to have a talk with her. My dad is working hard and has to put up with idiots at work, so I don't want to tire him out when there are other options. I will wait until this Wednesday when Lent begins; Lent is a Catholic 40-day fast _(an abstinence from food, or a limiting of one's food, especially when voluntary and as a religious observance; fasting)_. It also is a time for spiritual awareness and increased prayer, and hopefully her heart will be opened to actually understand where she is wrong. Unfortunately, she stubbornly rejects being called "self-righteous", even though everyone around can see that she is just so. She says that her intentions block any negativity from her soul, which, she doesn't realize, is the definition of self-righteous thought . She can't observe her own faults without using others as excuses, which leads to all sorts of crappy situations. I came up with a cool quote to explain it to her, saying that "The self-righteous will immediately defend themselves from such an accusation, while the righteous will seek to right any wrongs." It all rolls off her back. I think that if I just find another name for "self-righteous" then she will probably accept it....it is as if she cannot get passed the word, to the point that the definition and it's application has no meaning to her. Ugh...this is going to be a loooonnnggg process; and, as little as I would like to admit it, it will take more than my own brain power to solve this issue. Please pray for me and my family (if you are comfortable with that, otherwise, no sweat).


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## Kebachi (May 27, 2014)

Raven Tea said:


> She can't observe her own faults without using others as excuses, which leads to all sorts of crappy situations. I came up with a cool quote to explain it to her, saying that "The self-righteous will immediately defend themselves from such an accusation, while the righteous will seek to right any wrongs." It all rolls off her back. I think that if I just find another name for "self-righteous" then she will probably accept it....it is as if she cannot get passed the word, to the point that the definition and it's application has no meaning to her. Ugh...this is going to be a loooonnnggg process; and, as little as I would like to admit it, it will take more than my own brain power to solve this issue.


If she doesn't see her faults now then she will when her Ti finally develops. INFJ's become far more critical of themselves than they are of others (which is scary when you really sit down and think about it).
I'm sorry to hear about how physically abusive she is, that's definitely no bueno. Her Se is a hot mess. 

Also, no offense, but some of your wording and descriptions made me twitch a bit as well, and I'm 32 with some decent Ti at hand XD
I wouldn't have responded too terribly well to your approach as a teenager either. I wouldn't have beaten you up, not all INFJ's are like that, but I would have probably avoided you and viewed you as condescending or controlling. Not saying that's the case, in fact it seems like you genuinely care for your sister. Just stating that she's probably viewing things in this way and isn't capable of seeing outside of that perspective for now. 

From what I've read, I'd say you guys should lay off debating until you're both older. It seems at this stage of development you both just clash (violently at that). There will be ample opportunity in the future for debates and intellectual stimulation, trust me. 
For now I recommend seeking the need to debate out through the rest of your family and/or friends, and to just respect the fact that, for now, your sister is living in her own little world.

Have you tried talking about MBTI with her? Maybe trying to find like hobbies would help you two to bond. Fe users like communal activities and experiences.


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## Unfey (Apr 8, 2013)

Raven Tea said:


> I asked her if she could ever could do the wrong thing, and she answered that she never will do something if she thinks it is wrong. I then pointed out that she is assuming that she always knows what is right, and she ignored this. I also pointed out that at her age (16), she could not possibly have the level of wisdom and infallibility that she claims to have. Lastly, I pointed out that I have far more experience than she in testing my theories and that I am more objective, whereas she is subjective.



Okay, wow. You need to give your sister some space to grow on her own. It is _not_ okay for you to try and impose your logic on her in such a condescending way-- you may not realize it, but what you are doing is _very _emotionally harmful to her. You are constantly accusing her of being wrong, second-guessing her, forcing her to second-guess herself, trying to convince her that she cannot _possibly_ be right, and basically encouraging her not to trust you. You have made no obvious attempt to understand her, and you have given her no room to express herself. You cut down her arguments and opinions at every turn, and hindered her opportunities for personal growth. 

If she physically attacks you, defend yourself. If she verbally attacks you, defend yourself _without attacking back._ Stick to "I feel" and "I think" statements-- basic conflict-resolution techniques. _DO NOT PRESUME TO UNDERSTAND HER THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS._ I cannot stress this enough. There is _nothing_ more offensive and enraging than hearing someone talk down to you in this way.

If you really want to help her grow as a person, be there for her as a guardian. Relax when she says something stupid or wrong or ignorant, and relax when she says something in direct opposition to a belief you hold. Put aside your own convictions and feelings in these arguments, and stand by her side. You do not have to agree with her, but you _do_ need to be there to support her right to speak her mind and her heart. Give her a safe, nonjudgmental, non-confrontational space where she is allowed to screw up as badly as she can and still feel appreciated and loved. Stop second-guessing her, stop trying to convince her of things, stop telling her she's wrong. Stop trying to impose your will on her. Stop trying to impose your opinions on her. Stop making her feel like you are a hostile person who does nothing but threaten her values and humiliate her. 

Always, always remember that _your_ way of thinking is not the _best_ way of thinking. Sensitivity and subjectivity are _s__trong, positive attributes_ for feelers. When allowed to develop and strengthen, sensitivity and subjectivity grow into kindness, compassion, understanding, open-mindedness, courage, and generosity. 

If you can't do this, just avoid her and ignore her. Because right now, you are acting as a negative, harmful person in her life, and she will develop in a healthier way without you. If you can't be her friend without having to "fix" her, both you and her are better off staying far away from eachother.


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## Raven Tea (Nov 30, 2014)

Unfey said:


> Okay, wow. You need to give your sister some space to grow on her own. It is _not_ okay for you to try and impose your logic on her in such a condescending way-- you may not realize it, but what you are doing is _very _emotionally harmful to her. You are constantly accusing her of being wrong, second-guessing her, forcing her to second-guess herself, trying to convince her that she cannot _possibly_ be right, and basically encouraging her not to trust you. You have made no obvious attempt to understand her, and you have given her no room to express herself. You cut down her arguments and opinions at every turn, and hindered her opportunities for personal growth.
> 
> If she physically attacks you, defend yourself. If she verbally attacks you, defend yourself _without attacking back._ Stick to "I feel" and "I think" statements-- basic conflict-resolution techniques. _DO NOT PRESUME TO UNDERSTAND HER THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS._ I cannot stress this enough. There is _nothing_ more offensive and enraging than hearing someone talk down to you in this way.
> 
> ...


Haha, she has actually said some of those things to me (not trusting me, I think I'm better, etc)...I tend to ignore those statements because she is always on the offense (yet still mysteriously introverted) and always talks over me, so it isn't like she actually knows what I say. Of course she won't trust me when she doesn't know what I am thinking, but it is only her fault for not listening when I PLAINLY MAP OUT the cosmos of my mind (everyone else around me would die to get that info). I do know her feelings, we have had plenty of conversations and she is easy to read. The only issue is that her Fe doesn't compute with my Te, so even though I could write a book on her mind I don't really understand or appreciate her Fe, because she always uses it negatively against me. She is positive and nice towards others, but her constant verbal and physical antagonism towards me is excruciatingly tiring. It isn't as though this is a response to something I did to her, it is a confrontation. I could be minding my own business and then she will come in and argue about the morality of the volume of my radio, or how evil I am for sitting on the couch in the same room as her. It is OBNOXIOUS. 

I have gotten to the point where I simply ignore her on these petty issues, and I just keep on quietly doing my own thing (she really shouldn't be taking issue with this...I'm not in her way and she isn't entitled to a perfect environment). I remain calm in my responses when she doesn't let up, and I give terse responses when she gets physical. I never fight back (I might block her punches) and I am never on the offense (unless it is about cleaning). 

It is hard to give a person space when they are constantly invading yours. I am not giving up any territory, and I never will invade hers (unless it is about cleaning...I just can't help it). I have always been a mentor and guardian for her, and she likes my advice. That isn't the issue here. My only unusual faults in these conflicts are insensitivity (seeing the issues in a distant, objective light when they may be emotionally significant to her) and the usual INTJ sarcasm. However, there is only so much I can do about myself. If she wants change, she has to bring it into the equation. She can't expect me to fundamentally transform while she continues to act self-righteous and idealistic, but we can both expect each other to mature.


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## Raven Tea (Nov 30, 2014)

Kebachi said:


> If she doesn't see her faults now then she will when her Ti finally develops. INFJ's become far more critical of themselves than they are of others (which is scary when you really sit down and think about it).
> I'm sorry to hear about how physically abusive she is, that's definitely no bueno. Her Se is a hot mess.
> 
> Also, no offense, but some of your wording and descriptions made me twitch a bit as well, and I'm 32 with some decent Ti at hand XD
> ...


I do come across as abrasive sometimes, but it is simply calm stating of honest facts  I think that in person what offends her and others the most about what I say is how calmly I state the dirty truths that nobody wants to admit. I am predominately Ni, so on my side I appreciate that kind of talk. 

Anyhoo, I think you hit the nail on head in describing how she might see me. She will probably continue to see that way until her Ti develops. I'll give her room for that (as well as find subtle ways to get it to grow).

She does know about MBTI but she genuinely dislikes INTJs...she thinks that we are very immoral people who are willing to sacrifice humaIns for our plans of despotic world domination....she even told me "I try to weigh everything with morality, and you only care about strategy!". We could all agree that that is a superficial view of INTJs, and I point that out to her, but she talks over me to loudly and passionately so I just ignore her and keep about my business. This is bad because she then feels like I don't care about what she thinks, but I just don't see any value in one-sided conversation. In fact, it becomes a lecture when she just talks over me and doesn't listen.

What advice would you have for her? I plan on showing her this thread eventually (she'll be mortified to know I posted this), but for now she would appreciate advice from other INFJs.


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## Highway Nights (Nov 26, 2014)

Raven Tea said:


> "I try to weigh everything with morality, and you only care about strategy!"


Just laugh whenever she says stuff like this. Don't take her seriously, make it clear that you aren't taking those kinds of statements even remotely seriously. Just.....
laugh.
I would highly advise NOT showing her this thread. She will get angry, she will take it as a sign that you're trying to control her (and for once, she wouldn't be wrong), and it will sour your relationship.


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## Kebachi (May 27, 2014)

Raven Tea said:


> I do come across as abrasive sometimes, but it is simply calm stating of honest facts  I think that in person what offends her and others the most about what I say is how calmly I state the dirty truths that nobody wants to admit. I am predominately Ni, so on my side I appreciate that kind of talk.
> 
> Anyhoo, I think you hit the nail on head in describing how she might see me. She will probably continue to see that way until her Ti develops. I'll give her room for that (as well as find subtle ways to get it to grow).
> 
> ...


It's isn't how "calm" you are that's upsetting her. Ni users are all about stating: "the dirty truths", but depending on what your first judging function is will determine HOW you state those truths to others. Te is an INFJ's trickster subconscious function, I.E. the one function that they mistrust and which also can grate on their nerves when they're bombarded with it. If you're an INTJ your trickster function would be Fe, and you probably experience the same frustration and mistrust towards your sister's Fe. Most especially now while you're both developing the secondary trait and using it clumsily. (I'm sure you've noticed most of the other Te users having disdain for Fe or speaking ill of it. This is not uncommon).

You'll probably also have difficulty empathizing with her until your Fi develops. 

I think showing her this thread is going to add fuel to the fire. I still stand by my earlier statement in that you should leave her alone and stop trying to force her to adhere to what you think is right/how she should think and act. Your continued attempts to dominate/control her are only going to make matters worse. She's going to feel as though you're painting an unfair picture of who she is to all of these online folk in an attempt to bend her to your will (and who knows, you might be). I'm trying to see both sides of the story here which is a little difficult without her input, but not impossible. There are little things that tip me off however as to why she's reacting as negatively as she is. 

It takes two to tango, I still think it's very wrong that she inflicts physical harm on you and doesn't apologize or try to make up for her abusive behavior, but I also think you need to stop trying to control her views and opinions (especially if it's pushing her to the breaking point, which it sounds like it is). You did state that you have plenty of people you can discuss things with. Why is it so important to continue arguing with her if it upsets her this badly AND you both make no headway? You may not agree with her views, but until she's ready to analyze them you're not going to reach her. You're only going to create more and more of a rift to where, when she is ready, she certainly isn't going to come to you. 

Her Ti will develop more as she's around Ti users. My husband is an ENTP and we can debate with no problems at all because we speak the same language. You might even be surprised to hear that I think your sister may already analyze a lot of her own opinions and thoughts, she just doesn't share those thoughts with you. Ti is an introverted function, one which she'll share with people she feels comfortable with.

Whatever you do, DON'T fall into the common tactic of trying to be the victim. My INTJ ex would push and push me until I'd blow up at him and then he'd run off and cry to others about what an irrational and horrible person I was. When we finally got away from each other we didn't speak for about a year. My ex and I are good friends again and have been so for a few years, because he was able to owe up to his abusive behavior and we both made up. I'm not saying that you're deliberately trying to make her blow up, but whatever you do try not to take that route. There will be emotional scars that are hard to recover from.

Sorry that my advice is more for you than for her, I have yet to speak to her or hear her side so it's hard to give her advice.


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## Raven Tea (Nov 30, 2014)

Kebachi said:


> It's isn't how "calm" you are that's upsetting her. Ni users are all about stating: "the dirty truths", but depending on what your first judging function is will determine HOW you state those truths to others. Te is an INFJ's trickster subconscious function, I.E. the one function that they mistrust and which also can grate on their nerves when they're bombarded with it. If you're an INTJ your trickster function would be Fe, and you probably experience the same frustration and mistrust towards your sister's Fe. Most especially now while you're both developing the secondary trait and using it clumsily. (I'm sure you've noticed most of the other Te users having disdain for Fe or speaking ill of it. This is not uncommon).
> 
> You'll probably also have difficulty empathizing with her until your Fi develops.
> 
> ...


This is all great advice, and I have picked up a couple of useful nuggets in this post, but need you to understand something:
I am not imposing anything upon her. Her view of me as oppressive is not based on anything I have done; because of my demeanor and personality she simply views that I have the potential to be oppressive. It is very N-based. My Sensor siblings only joke about me being "scary" or "evil" because they don't worry about the future, they worry about the now; and in the now I have done nothing that deserves of that title. This is not to say that I am perfect, but I am saying that this specific idea that is bothering my sister so badly is a result of her imagination and F/N.

I have an ENTP sister, and we all love her. I will encourage her to spend more quality time with the INFJ. 

The purpose of this thread is not to control any part of my sister, I am simply seeking advice on how to solve a problem with our relationship and make my sister happier and more mature. It pains me to see that she has no idea how much I love her. Part of this is that I don't know how to express it, and the other part is that she fears that I only want to get close to manipulate her. It also doesn't help that she thinks that everything about fictional INTJs applies to real INTJs.

I am not a victim and I never will be. In fact, I was surprised at how concerned everyone was about the physical abuse; I considered it to be the least of my problems. I have a high pain tolerance and I generally don't get offended when I am hit. I mainly am concerned with the behavior and ideas that surround our relationship. I don't care if she never completely understands me, I only want her to trust me. I have lived 18 years without anybody to confide in; I don't know what it is like to have someone to depend on and so I don't know what I'm missing out on. I don't feel entitled to having friends or being understood. I understand that I am half of this messy sibling equation, and I am just as guilty as she is. Regardless of how anyone thinks of the situation, I care very little about what happens to me, I can handle rotten situations just fine. If I wanted help for myself I would not have come here, I know how to get what I need for myself. I just want my sister to develop well so that she can unleash all of her potential, this is something I need help with because I have no control over her, and I don't want to have control. I want her to have the tools she needs to be free. If anyone is a victim, it is my sister. She is suffering the worst of it because she is sensitive. In reality, I may be the one getting beat up and misunderstood, but I don't give a crap. On the other hand, the smallest things make such a big impact to her. 

On a side note, I think that if I was a more sensitive person then the problem might have been addressed sooner. I never spoke to anyone about this, except for the occasional venting session with my ESTP and ESFP sisters. Even now I am not sure if I will bring this up with my parents, it will take some external pushing.

Anyways, thanks for taking the time to read all this and the whole thread in general. I am almost giddy with all the new possible solutions you all have proposed, and I can't wait to see how things turn out over the year.


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## Dakitty (Feb 14, 2015)

I think if you were more mature, you wouldn't terrorize your sister until she pops you in the face like you deserve ^.~


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## Kebachi (May 27, 2014)

Raven Tea said:


> This is all great advice, and I have picked up a couple of useful nuggets in this post, but need you to understand something:
> I am not imposing anything upon her. Her view of me as oppressive is not based on anything I have done; because of my demeanor and personality she simply views that I have the potential to be oppressive. It is very N-based. My Sensor siblings only joke about me being "scary" or "evil" because they don't worry about the future, they worry about the now; and in the now I have done nothing that deserves of that title. This is not to say that I am perfect, but I am saying that this specific idea that is bothering my sister so badly is a result of her imagination and F/N.
> 
> I have an ENTP sister, and we all love her. I will encourage her to spend more quality time with the INFJ.
> ...


You do kinda come across as: "I know what's best, I'm not wrong. My point of view is the correct one, now she needs to see things my way" rather than realizing that maybe you have some things you need to work on as well. It's not easy for us to see our faults, honestly it's taken me a long time to realize things about myself that I need to work on, and I will continue to find faults with myself (I hope, if not I'm doing it wrong). I do hope that things work out between the two of you.


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## Alpha_Orionis (Jan 18, 2015)

You said that it is not because she is very religious, you surely know her better than anyone in the world, but i have met a few of "that kind" (no disrespect,ofc) and they were all very religious people. I suppose it has something to do with the "morality" described in The Bible, and therfore as Christians they think that that kind of morality is the right kind. I personally could not explain flaws of religion to those people because of the same kind of resistance that your sister possess. It kind of reminds me of a religious woman in the horror movie based on the book called Mist. I think the best way could be if you just lay low and ignore her for a while. Arguing and explaining obiviously do not work.


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## Kalane (Oct 22, 2014)

Ignorance sorts itself out, you know, like slavery, and concentration camps. Just kidding. To get perspective here, people learn from experience, when she meets an INTJ that she accepts in the right instance, she'll forget her issues with them. You could become this person. People reject change when they cannot relate to it.

Furthermore, one of the biggest mental distortions is that we are responsible for teaching others. You can't change people unless they want to change.

Also, she may not change! It happens! My sister is an ISFP, and she thinks I care about nothing that's important, that I'm a goody two shoes and too strict on rules! Not my fault! I AM WHO I AM.

Best thing to communicate is that you care about her values because she cares about them!

THIRDLY! This is about you, you're worried about yourself not being the good guy in the situation.. You will also be the hero of your own story and the villain of some other people's stories. THIS WILL NEVER CHANGE. Accept it, we try our best, which means everyone deserves to be loved and forgiven. But no one gets to be a true hero. X3 From her perspective she has legitimate concerns! You can't help her clarify, but you can comfort her based on her perspective concerns!

WRONG: You only fell down three stairs.
RIGHT: I'm sorry you got hurt.


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## Kalane (Oct 22, 2014)

Dakitty said:


> I think if you were more mature, you wouldn't terrorize your sister until she pops you in the face like you deserve ^.~


How could you say this? D: I hope you get sent to an anarchist wasteland where everyone is a douche.


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## Kebachi (May 27, 2014)

Dakitty said:


> I think if you were more mature, you wouldn't terrorize your sister until she pops you in the face like you deserve ^.~


GDit buu, you made me spit up my water again XD
Of course your first post here is trolly, not surprised.


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## Raven Tea (Nov 30, 2014)

Dakitty said:


> I think if you were more mature, you wouldn't terrorize your sister until she pops you in the face like you deserve ^.~


Wow. Did you post that in the wrong thread or are you illiterate? Sorry to be so brash but since when do I terrorize my sister? She is the one confronting me, I am minding my own damn business. Don't be offended, just know that your comment holds no water.


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## Raven Tea (Nov 30, 2014)

Kalane said:


> Ignorance sorts itself out, you know, like slavery, and concentration camps. Just kidding. To get perspective here, people learn from experience, when she meets an INTJ that she accepts in the right instance, she'll forget her issues with them. You could become this person. People reject change when they cannot relate to it.
> 
> Furthermore, one of the biggest mental distortions is that we are responsible for teaching others. You can't change people unless they want to change.
> 
> ...


I honestly don't care about what is in a person's head until they act upon it. If my sis would keep her illusions to herself, I wouldn't be here. I am not the kind of person who needs help from others, but this issue is a hurdle; at least for now. She literally gets in my way just to preach. It happens when I am trying to cook, it happens when I'm listening to talk radio, it happens when I am joking around or telling stories, she won't remove herself from my life. I can't even feel comfortable having a friendly chat with her because she holds me up in the air emotionally, she might get offended at any second for no conceivable reason. What can I do to get her to calm down? She wants to change me, and she doesn't even know that what she wants to change is either non-existent or just a harmless pet-peeve. I am SICK of it. That attitude is getting in the way of having a nice relationship. She also acts this way towards everyone else in the family, and she doesn't realize how much damage she is causing. I am about to leave for college, and she won't be my problem anymore, and maybe she will mature, but for the time being, I want to find a solution of some sort. 

People, please read the posts before you post something. I am tired of reading the same stuff over again


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## Decisions_Decisions (Jan 29, 2015)

A word of professional advice: this case needs much more analysis and assistance than any online or MBTI typology group can give you. 

There are serious boundary issues and physical and emotional abuse, by BOTH of you. There appears to be some, possibly unknowing, neglect by your parents. I've observed and shared this thread with great interest, because it is a classic example of a dysfunctional sibling relationship and environment. 

We can only know what you have chosen to tell us, but that has revealed a map of the family roles (which are broken) and your perception of what knowledge and power you have over her and the others. 

You are 18. 18 years old. 
You are not her parent, but a sibling. That boundary must be respected. It is not your job to "fix" your sister. Ever. 

Using MBTI to justify such hubris and an unhealthy urge to control it is not OK, nor is it healthy for posters here to give you advice and support your judgments of your sister based only on your words here.

Jung and any competent psychologist would strongly object, to put it lightly. We are not talking about mere dating advice, but a life-long family relationship.

Some of the posters here have given you good advice. Others have thrown gas on the flames. I did not want to speak up, but the last few posts have shown that real, lasting damage can be done if there isn't an acknowledgement of and attention to the underlying issues here. 

Therefore, I would strongly advise, even implore, you to show this thread to your parents and a family therapist instead of your sister.


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## Raven Tea (Nov 30, 2014)

Kalane said:


> I do believe you get it, but let's be frank here your type doesn't gaurentee credibility, but I assume you were being jovial. Also, I think there's some hurt you both need to address, not necessarily in conversation. You did show possible signs of strong bitterness, that wasn't unwarranted but could be difficult to overcome.
> 
> "I end up *bloody* and bruised, but calm; she ends up crying but is unharmed. Of course, *everyone* pities the crying gal and the calm gal is the bully." <-- this seems biased and possibly over exaggerated, and definitely not forgiving.
> 
> ...


Those specific comments of mine were rather passionate, but they _are_ true. I was using strong language, which made these sentences stand out, but I have been saying the same things this whole thread. Also take note that this thread is only centered around a VERY specific conflict between my sister and I. None of what I have said is always true of everything, but it is true in regards to this specific conflict. I am blaming my sister for her faults, and she has every right to do the same to me. The fact is, every thing in those specific quotations is true in regards to the conflict that I have centered this thread around. 

I am a prideful person, and I am honest enough to admit that. I never denied it. However, my pride does not mean that what I say isn't true, it means that I may not be willing to take necessary action on my part to address it; this includes forgiving and being more sensitive. 

Haha, my profile pic is of an anime character washing cloths...I liked it since he looks all grumpy and serious and such but really he is just performing a mundane (albeit pleasant) task of hand washing. I love hand washing. 
I think your picture is beautiful 

Last note: please keep in mind these few things:

1. My sister is going to post her perspective soon. Please wait until then to form your opinions of the situation. The more information you receive, the more enabled you will be to give accurate and helpful criticism and suggestions.

2. The purpose of this thread. I am not asking for advice for every time I contact my sis; this conflict that I have brought up is very specific and what needs to happen in response will not apply to normal life. When she is attacking me, and when she is stressed, she needs different treatment from when she is happy. She is capable of telling me how she wants to be treated normally, but not so in extreme situations. 

3. The context of the thread. As of now, all the evidence comes from my perspective. Your job is to take my evidence at face value and make suggestions accordingly. Save your assumptions and suspicions for when my sister comes on and gives her side, knowing her side will prove or disprove your assumptions. I can tell you now that many of your assumptions are false, but you can wait until she tells you herself. My sister and I are patient and intelligent enough to understand that much about each other. No matter your talents, my sister and I can read each other far better than you ever could, we know each other in person, you depend entirely on my words and whatever assumptions you make by reading between the lines. 

4. Don't take anything I say as offensive, none of it is directed at you personally. I am simply stating what I know as fact. Since I don't know everything, I will not always be correct, which is why debate is welcome (as long as it is topical). I know I come across as blunt and abrasive, and if I had more time, I would rephrase everything to be a bit more polite. There is no glory in insensitivity, and I wish I could have chosen a less busy time to post all this. Please keep that in mind, and extend a little grace. You are reading the words of a busy young adult, not a time-cushioned one. If you are also busy, you have my appreciation for your ability to remain comparatively polite. I simply don't have the time to state things in a more kind manner. (Example: your assumptions are false could be rewritten as would you also consider this...or something like that)

5. I appreciate you. Of all the people posting, you have been the most tenacious and have a very unique and analytic perspective. You have explained yourself well and have an open mind. I may not agree with everything you say, but your words aren't everything. You have shown me a bit about yourself through your behavior, and from what I see I would assume that you are a pretty great person. I sometimes respond to you in a condescending or rude manner, but I honestly don't mean it. There are other things happening in my life outside of PerC which have effects on me. The manner of the response is not always a reflection of my emotional response to your post, rather, a reflection of my being exhausted or annoyed with something in my environment. 

6. These aren't excuses, they are explanations. Explanations help us understand how to address and identify incorrect thought, not excuse it. I know I am wrong just as often as everyone else. I may be a genius in some areas, and an absolute dolt in others. I will be quick to admit my being wrong, but if I am not recognizing something, let it go. I will either come to it later or my sis will explain it to me when she comes across it. My goal is to improve, I can't live comfortably with error.


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## Raven Tea (Nov 30, 2014)

Decisions_Decisions said:


> A word of professional advice: this case needs much more analysis and assistance than any online or MBTI typology group can give you.
> 
> There are serious boundary issues and physical and emotional abuse, by BOTH of you. There appears to be some, possibly unknowing, neglect by your parents. I've observed and shared this thread with great interest, because it is a classic example of a dysfunctional sibling relationship and environment.
> 
> ...


Agreed. I came here knowing that I would not get a perfect solution. I came here to gather information that will be sorted through later. I value PerC as a tool for gaining information, nothing more. I usually ignore the conclusions made by people here, especially by those who advocate for extreme measures or measures that violate my sense of morality and duty to my sister. I know it isn't my responsibility to change her, I couldn't do that if I wanted to.

I don't think I did a very good job explaining the magnitude of the conflict; usually things are not very bad and things are getting better as we both mature. My parents have not been helpful at all in the situation, part of that is because I never go to them for help, part of it is because of their ability to actually help. They do not like MBTI at all, to the point where they would discard everything in this thread. I would have to present the information to them in a different way. Ugh.

There are other people whom I can bring this up with, but I honestly don't think that it will be necessary. It might have been a few years ago when things were really bad, but things are only getting better. Even since my sister started reading this thread she has improved. This public thread has been a catalyst for change in our behavior. Unless things go downhill, this conflict will not need help from outside the family. 

Basically, I agree with 99% of what you're saying, except that last bit about the outside help. Right now, it will not help. It might have in the past, and it might in the future, but not now.


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## Kalane (Oct 22, 2014)

Decisions_Decisions said:


> A word of professional advice: this case needs much more analysis and assistance than any online or MBTI typology group can give you.
> 
> There are serious boundary issues and physical and emotional abuse, by BOTH of you. There appears to be some, possibly unknowing, neglect by your parents. I've observed and shared this thread with great interest, because it is a classic example of a dysfunctional sibling relationship and environment.
> 
> ...


 I'm not disagreeing.. But it is ironic, that you're giving advice and fit the same category as us. Are you a therapist? What do you mean by professional advice?


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## Kalane (Oct 22, 2014)

Yeah, lol, well, I can say, I very much like you, Raven. I don't mean to be so intense about perusing you in a confronting way, but like the ENTP, it's all just tactics, I have an extreme interest in people and know how to get the info I want to get. It's all in the best meaning way. I think you're awesome and you'll both figure this out! I wanted to make sure you're correctly assessing yourself. Now that all I have to say even in possibility is said, I'm almost certain I know you well enough to say you're on the right track. I can't wait for your sister's response. Lastly! Remember, this is almost an "Intervention" in the way it has been handled. Interventions are known for a very high relapse once the people involved feel the situation has been handled, so they stop trying. Keep mindful of yourself even months in the future, but this is a boost, the rest is up to you two continuing to always correct your own behaviors. Umm.. I don't think as far as you needing professional help, that this forum is harmful. I think asking for outside advice is generally helpful, no matter the source. As long as they genuinely care. So, yeah, as far as that other person said, it's nice to get professional help, but asking for help from other sources isn't really bad as a supplement occasionally. That's what friends are for.  Consider us an impartial support group.


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## Khiro (Nov 28, 2012)

Raven Tea said:


> That's all well and good, but that mentality only works for people outside of the family. I honestly want to help my sister overcome these handicaps so she live a fruitful life; there are more than enough useless people in the world who never matured, and I don't want to let my sis slip by into the same fate. If more people tried to take care of their families then the world would be a much better place.


At sixteen she still has a long way to go until she needs to reach a reasonable level of maturity. I'm with everyone else who's saying the violence needs to stop and I'm pleased you've said you're going to (or have, if you since have) bring it to your mother's attention, but I don't know if the hyper-idealistic and somewhat self-centred perspectives on the world are necessarily unnatural for an INFJ of her age. 

I'm sure it looks like a very immature and ineffective approach to life. That's exactly what it is. But it's important that you recognize the ways in which your priorities differ from hers. At her age she isn't going to have your desire for a _fruitful life_. She's going to have her own desire for a _fair_ one. The way she's picking at you for the unfair actions she believes you're committing suggests she has that, even if her abilities to validate her perspective and to act on it appropriately are still underdeveloped. 

For me, if not for other INFJs, pragmatism came later. Reality catches up with all of us and the value of overcoming excessive emotionality and unnecessary paranoia becomes more and more apparent as we begin to recognize the necessity of social and financial independence. As motivators go, that one tends to put things into perspective pretty damned quickly. I can't promise you she'll mature in perfect fashion, but I can tell you I wouldn't be too worried about her development yet, at least going from what you've told us so far.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Raven Tea said:


> Recap for the lazy people:
> 
> 
> 6. I DO NOT WANT TO CHANGE HER. She has a great personality and plenty of potential, but she needs to develop her Ti and leave me the hell alone. *I am only looking for advice in this area.* You all have provided adequate information and advice on all other issues, and I have made my plans for dealing with the other issues.


Funny thing, I have four siblings as well, Christians as well. ISFJ mother, ESTP father, ENTJ, ISFP, ISTP, ESTP, INFJ siblings. The thread caught my notice because I've had the same problem with grudge holding with the INFJ. I'm the ENTJ, so the age and power disparity is enormous; before this I always assumed it was a last resort for a person with no power in our family; she does it with everyone at times. 

As for how it gets resolved; she's too young for me to really be able to tell. I actually try to avoid situations where we're in the same space for long.

I think Ti is something she will probably aspire to more than actually be able to possess. I've found that the tertiary function in many people only seems to appear in flashes. Even if she did develop it, you wouldn't necessarily like the results. I think you'd have more luck communicating through Ni or Fe, somehow.


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## Raven Tea (Nov 30, 2014)

Kalane, Khiro, and Kollonhausen; thank you so much for those last posts. That's all I can really say. I'm not sure how to put into words what I felt when I read those posts, but it seems like you all just summed up the most important things that I should take away from all this. You all are super awesome. 

I'm not sure when my sister will post, she isn't very timely and has a bit of trouble getting her head out of the clouds (I mean this in a nice way). Don't worry if you don't see anything soon. It takes her longer to put her feelings and thoughts onto paper than it does me.


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