# Willpower and the NT



## affezwilling (Feb 1, 2011)

So I occasionally poke around on Keirsey's website and found an essay on there about Temperament vs Character which I found interesting. If you want to read the whole article here's the link - Keirsey Temperament Website, but I was more interested in the last line in the essay which read:



> And again, the unfolding of these three traits together weighs against developing a self-image based on ingenuity, autonomy, and willpower, which is characteristic of the Rationals.


I've heard a lot about the NT being autonomous and ingenious, but this is the first time I think I've come across willpower as an NT trait. I think it makes perfect sense for the XNTJs, but despite how very willful I can be I've never really thought of XNTPs as priding themselves on their willpower. Perceivers are known for their impulsive behavior so having self-control seems to be contradictory. So do other NTs see themselves as possessing a great deal of willpower? Do you think XNTPs have more self control than other perceivers? Do you think XNTPs have more or less willpower than SJs? I'm interested in knowing what other NTs think.


----------



## DeductiveReasoner (Feb 25, 2011)

Willpower as in accomplishing things, or willpower as in being ridiculously stubborn? I assure you, I'm stubborn, but getting stuff done is another story. haha

You can't really compare NT willpower to SJ willpower, unless you have a means of measurement. How do you propose we compare the two?


----------



## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

From reading that little piece I think it's more about wants. It's rationales ideal self image to want to have ingenuity, autonomy, and willpower. As an ENTP I'm greatly impulsive but I "want" willpower and I strive to control my impulsive acts (which I fail a lot, but getting better).

Also the word willpower can apply to different goals in an individual's life for instance I use to struggle through paying attention in school so I worked on and focused on the willpower to focus on school. Though I have a undeniable incurable massive appetite and love for food I never thought of acquiring the willpower to keep my appetite or live for it at bay because I didn't see the point of it. So this statement can mean many different things, sucks that Keirsey couldn't put it in better words and left it up for many different interpretations.

To answer your question though I think it's the ideal image we have in our minds of wanting willpower that sets us apart from other temperaments.


----------



## affezwilling (Feb 1, 2011)

@DeductiveReasoner
Although I've been called stubborn before I see myself as more highly determined than stubborn.

Willpower, as defined by dictionary.com:



> will power
> noun
> control of one's impulses and actions; self-control.
> Also, will·pow·er.


NTs and SJs have their own particular brand of stubborn. NTs refuse to conform, SJs refuse to change. Being stubborn or determined isn't necessarily synonymous with having willpower though. What do you see as the difference between SJ willpower and NT willpower? Any thoughts as to why Keirsey identifies having willpower as being a basis to an NTs self-image and not as important to the self-image of other three temperaments?


----------



## Ngg (Jul 22, 2010)

In this context, I think the term 'willpower' is used in the sense of overcoming mental challenges, and not referring to how many concrete goals one can accomplish - which is not a trait of xNTPs. Relentless drive to solve difficult problems and get to the bottom of things, overcoming adversity and self-control would be how I interpret the 'willpower' common to all NTs.


----------



## DeductiveReasoner (Feb 25, 2011)

affezwilling said:


> @DeductiveReasoner
> Although I've been called stubborn before I see myself as more highly determined than stubborn.
> 
> Willpower, as defined by dictionary.com:
> ...


The most obvious example of SJ willpower vs NT willpower?

SJs desire to stick to the rules/traditions/regulations/standards
NTs desire to not conform and to question the rules/traditions/regulations/standard.
The contradicting willpowers result in a multitude of clashing between the two.

I confess to confusing willpower with stubbornness though. and I have no idea. didn't read the article, sorry.


----------



## M1R4G3 (Aug 21, 2011)

Perceiving and impulse aren't really the same thing, it's just more along the style of how we organize and go about doing things time wise. Most Js will tend to do things right away as not to obscure other things, Ps will tend to put it off until necessary so that they can get all the possibilities situated. So it's not that we don't actually ooze willpower, rather we keep it out of the way until it is necessary. If it's not necessary, there is no reason to do it. If their is no reason to do it, it is usually tantamount to stupidity for NTs.

Edit: By the way, that Js up there stands for XXXJ, not javascript.


----------



## MsBossyPants (Oct 5, 2011)

_And again, the unfolding of these three traits together weighs against developing a self-image based on ingenuity, autonomy, and willpower, which is characteristic of the Rationals._


I think that statement is more accurate if you substitute the word "drive" .

Willpower is a discipline that must be controlled.

Drive is an innate power that is harnessed and put to advantage.


----------



## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

affezwilling said:


> :
> 
> 
> NTs refuse to conform.



Bingo! Thats me. Im not just some rebellious non-conformist asshole maaaaaannn, but people don't acknowledge how hard it really for me as an ENTJ. Telling me to "just follow the rules" is not as simple as it sounds. Doing something I don't believe in or that is illogical or unreasonable literally going against EVERYTHING I STAND FOR. I dont know if any other NT's feel this way but it is true for me. Its like forcing a mathematician to say without a shadow of a doubt that 1+1=3. Its that hard, for me at least. 

Im also pretty stubborn to though. I can admit to that. Also, something I feel like I have to stand my ground because it just needs to be done. You know, someone has to do it. So I guess since Im already on the ladder I might as well change the bulb. It gets me in a lot of trouble now, and im sure it will in the future as well. I'm not too worried about, but Im sure some people would tell me to watch what I say and do if I want to advance, but to be completely honest, I would just rather not advance. Maybe its because Im young? I dont know, but I hope I never lose my fire. I like it. It keeps me warm at night


----------



## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

I am master of my own domain... ;0


----------



## elixare (Aug 26, 2010)

affezwilling said:


> So do other NTs see themselves as possessing a great deal of willpower?


I have shitload of willpower...but then I'm a J



> Do you think XNTPs have more self control than other perceivers?


If by self control you mean less likely go to jail/impregnate someone at age 16 then sure....

NTPs are generally smart enough to not do the crazy shit that many SPs do....



> Do you think XNTPs have more or less willpower than SJs?


Less

Proof: More STJs make it to the executive level of companies than NTPs


----------



## Ngg (Jul 22, 2010)

childofprodigy said:


> I have shitload of willpower...but then I'm a J
> 
> 
> 
> ...



False. That merely proves that the traits required to make it up to CEO are more akin to SJ's than xNTP.
Logistical planning, organizational intelligence and the desire for material gain are not our strong suit... But that has nothing to do with willpower.
xNTP's dont like treading up the corporate ladder, so you dont see them in traditional CEO roles. But I'd argue that visionary entrepenueurs are much less likely to be SJ vs xNTP. Being your own boss like Steve Jobs or Walt Disney takes probably far more willpower.


----------



## affezwilling (Feb 1, 2011)

Ngg said:


> childofprodigy said:
> 
> 
> > affezwilling said:
> ...


I was going to say something similar. I would like to see where @childofprodigy got his statistics from. From a pure quantity standpoint I would assume that SJs are more abundant in CEO positions due simply to the sheer number of them around. The real test would be what percentage of NTPs make it onto the 1% most rich and powerful vs what percentage of SJs, i.e. saying that SJs are more successful because 1 million of them are rich and powerful when only 250k NTPs are rich and powerful is skewed since that would be less than 1% of the SJ population, but over 2% of the NTP population. Of course my statistics are just kind of made up (based on the estimates of the total population vs the estimates of the % of each personality type) for arguments sake, but if someone has any real statistics that they can site I would like to see them.


----------



## Emerson (Mar 13, 2011)

MsBossyPants said:


> _And again, the unfolding of these three traits together weighs against developing a self-image based on ingenuity, autonomy, and willpower, which is characteristic of the Rationals._
> 
> 
> I think that statement is more accurate if you substitute the word "drive" .
> ...



My thoughts exactly! Depends how we're defining will aswell, I'd say I'm driven and have a lot of willpower, just don't tempt me with anything, otherwise I'm broken.


----------



## Ngg (Jul 22, 2010)

@affezwilling

Good point, I totally forgot to mention how sample size completely skewes the numbers. I bet that *statistically *xNTP's are just as likely as SJs to occupy CEO roles, although as you pointed out it would be hard to obtain these figures.


----------



## elixare (Aug 26, 2010)

affezwilling said:


> I would like to see where @childofprodigy got his statistics from. From a pure quantity standpoint I.....etc


The numbers are from the book "Type Talk at Work." Google it. Since it costs 11$ to buy the book I'll just go ahead and put the numbers here....

"The tables are culled from our own data base of more than twenty thousand individuals at hundreds of companies to whome we've administered the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator. They represent every level of organizational life, from entry-level positions to chief executive officers. They come from Fortune 500 multinationals to mom-and-pop start-ups. They also span many industry sectors-banking, food processing, insurance, accounting, law, manufacturing, communications, high-tech, and a very large sampling of government and military personnel, including every branch of the armed forces, from private to general, seaman to admiral."

So basically they got the frequency proportions tables for employees at entry-level, middle-managers, senior managers, and executives....

I'll just go ahead and paste the table for the executive level...

The Table for Executives:

n = 2,245 (sample size if you're not familiar with stats-talk)

ISTJ - 32.1%
ISFJ - 0.5%
INFJ - 0.2%
INTJ - 15.8%
ISTP - 2.5% 
ISFP - 0.1%
INFP - 0.4%
INTP - 1.3%
ESTP - 1%
ESFP - 1%
ENFP - 0.8%
ENTP - 5.3%
ESTJ - 28%
ESFJ - 0.9%
ENFJ - 0.7%
ENTJ - 9.4%

Now let's adjust for the proportion to the average population 

Assuming we use the numbers from these:

My MBTI Personality Type - My MBTI Results - How Frequent Is My Type?

whereby 

ISTJ = 11.6% of population
ESTJ = 8.7% of population
ENTP = 3.2% of population
INTP = 3.3% of population 

We can compute the "over/under-representation level" of these types which returns the following:

ISTJ = 32.1/11.6 = 2.767 times overrepresentation
ESTJ = 28/8.7 = 3.218 times overrepresentation
ENTP = 5.3/3.2 = 1.656 times overrepresentation
INTP = 1.3/3.3 = 0.3939 times underrepresentation 

In any case, both ESTJs and ISTJs are more overrepresented than ENTP or INTPs....

ENTPs actually aren't doing bad, they're actually overrepresented rather than underrepresented....it's the INTPs that are underrepresented....

In any case, if you're that interested go buy the book. It's only 11$ and I swear that I'm not affiliated with the authors whatsoever (It's true, lol)



> False. That merely proves that the traits required to make it up to CEO are more akin to SJ's than xNTP.
> Logistical planning, organizational intelligence and the desire for material gain are not our strong suit... But that has nothing to do with willpower.
> xNTP's dont like treading up the corporate ladder, so you dont see them in traditional CEO roles. But I'd argue that visionary entrepenueurs are much less likely to be SJ vs xNTP. Being your own boss like Steve Jobs or Walt Disney takes probably far more willpower.


More on this, but I'll write it out later since I still got stuff to do, perhaps tomorrow.....


----------



## SteamClean52 (Oct 7, 2011)

i believe abraham lincoln and albert einstein were both XNTPs correct. Well it is highly evident that both showed a substantial amount of willpower. Reading "team of rivals"i learnt of many instances where Lincoln showed tremendous amounts of willpower, he held together his cabinet who were in fact a bunch of rivals, overcame the civil war masterfully i don't think many executives could have done that, when his son died whilst under trumendous pressure in his term as preseident he still retained his compusure, he went through a mental break down after not getting elected to senate twice and one which i admire most is that fact that he came from a lower class yet rose to be president. I know that XNTPs may be different in some factors which may alter certain traits about them, but it is no doubt evident that they can given the incentive to do so show willpower.


----------



## affezwilling (Feb 1, 2011)

childofprodigy said:


> The numbers are from the book "Type Talk at Work." Google it. Since it costs 11$ to buy the book I'll just go ahead and put the numbers here....
> 
> "The tables are culled from our own data base of more than twenty thousand individuals at hundreds of companies to whome we've administered the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator. They represent every level of organizational life, from entry-level positions to chief executive officers. They come from Fortune 500 multinationals to mom-and-pop start-ups. They also span many industry sectors-banking, food processing, insurance, accounting, law, manufacturing, communications, high-tech, and a very large sampling of government and military personnel, including every branch of the armed forces, from private to general, seaman to admiral."
> 
> ...


Those are some interesting statistics, thanks. I guess I've seen the estimates on the MBTI link you provided before, but didn't really look that closely until now. That's the first time that I've ever seen anyone estimate that there are more introverts in the US than there are extroverts. Looked into it and found out that extroverts are overestimated due to the original estimates being an educated guess instead of a surveyed statistic. I ran the full statistics of how over/underrepresented each type is and here they are:

INTJ - 15.8% / 2.1% = 7.522
ENTJ - 9.4% / 1.8% = 5.222
ESTJ - 28% / 8.7% = 3.218
ISTJ - 32.1% / 11.6% = 2.767
ENTP - 5.3% / 3.2% = 1.656
ISTP - 2.5% / 5.4% = 0.463
INTP - 1.3% / 3.3% = 0.394
ENFJ - 0.7% / 2.5% = 0.280
ESTP - 1% / 4.3% = 0.233
INFJ - 0.2% / 1.5% = 0.133
ESFP - 1% / 8.5% = 0.118
ENFP - 0.8% / 8.1% = 0.099
INFP - 0.4% / 4.4% = 0.091
ESFJ - 0.9% / 12.3% = 0.073
ISFJ - 0.5% / 13.8% = 0.036
ISFP - 0.1% / 8.8% = 0.011

Reviewing all of these statistics it would seem that all, but 5 types are underrepresented. The 5 overrepresented types are (in order of most to least overrepresented) INTJ, ENTJ, ESTJ, ISTJ and ENTP. In contrast the 5 most underrepresented types are ISFP, ISFJ, ESFJ, INFP and ENFP. So basically the conclusion we can draw is that climbing the corporate ladder has less to do with your temperament and a lot more to do with your cognitive functions. It would seem that it takes a lot of Te to get to the top as the top 4 spots are all Te heavy types. It also seems that being intuitive (specifically Ni) is exceptionally helpful in climbing the ladder as, with the exception of the ENFPs and the INTPs (both Ne types) who are slightly less represented than their sensor counterparts, the intuitives are significantly better represented than their sensor counterparts. It could also be noted that, with the exception of the ENFJ being slightly better represented than the ESTP, the top 1/2 of the list are all thinkers with the feelers being all at the bottom.

I do have to say though that I like how, if added up, they have estimated the frequency in personality type of aprox. 100.3% of the population of the US. Good thing they're psychologists and not mathematicians.



childofprodigy said:


> More on this, but I'll write it out later since I still got stuff to do, perhaps tomorrow.....


I would still like to hear, if you get a chance, how climbing the corporate ladder equates to willpower.


----------



## rcfox (Oct 15, 2011)

nonnaci said:


> I am master of my own domain... ;0


If you mean in the Seinfeld sense, then that is a lot of willpower!


----------

