# NFs discussing NTs! :D



## thedavidhooker (Jan 24, 2011)

Hey everybody!
a friend & I have made a series of videos in regards to various aspects of the Myers-Briggs and in this video we discuss the NF perspective on NTs. With these videos, we hope to start a dialog with people and explore these ideas Feel free to give suggestions, feedback and leave questions for us to answer in future videos!

Dave.


----------



## Obsidean (Mar 24, 2010)

I love disscussing issues with NFs, they give me a lot of insight but as you guys said; I always think that I'm right and they're wrong lol


----------



## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

Obsidean said:


> I love disscussing issues with NFs, they give me a lot of insight but as you guys said; I always think that I'm right and they're wrong lol


That's because we are right.
We base out findings are stuff like "logic" and "proof", not "feelings" and "faith".


----------



## sumi (Dec 13, 2009)

Cheveyo said:


> That's because we are right.
> We base out findings are stuff like "logic" and "proof", not "feelings" and "faith".


I was about to agree with this, and then i realized that i was only agreeing because of my "feelings."

Just sayin.


----------



## Van (Dec 28, 2009)

That's interesting. I really like hearing from your perspective. Unfortunately I don't know any NFs well (massive introvert!) so I don't have much to tell you.
Oh, and about being right all the time... yeah I can be like that, but there's usually a huge amount of self-critique going on to refine the idea first. I think NTs are pretty hard on themselves that way. I wonder if there's an NF equivalent to that?


----------



## MissJordan (Dec 21, 2010)

sumi said:


> I was about to agree with this, and then i realized that i was only agreeing because of my "feelings."
> 
> Just sayin.


No, it would have been recognizing a superior argument, which would show logic.

Since you didn't agree, you're based on your 'feelings'.


----------



## Lokkye (Dec 28, 2009)

Cheveyo said:


> That's because we are right.
> We base out findings are stuff like "logic" and "proof", not "feelings" and "faith".


But if Fs learn to balance their F, they can also have the ability to make decisions based on logic


----------



## MissJordan (Dec 21, 2010)

thedavidhooker said:


> YouTube - NT discussion


And these guys are hilarious.


----------



## Magnificent Bastard (Sep 22, 2010)

Although I admire NFs' noble intentions (they tend to be good people), I find fault in their way of arriving a the truth. It seems to me that their way of arriving at the truth is entirely personal and subjective. Just because you feel that something is so doesn't make it so. There are billions of other people like you that feel different things. 

At least logic is relatively universal.


----------



## Mr.Xl Vii (Jan 19, 2011)

I like NFs to an extent. They do get me I will say that, but when you get to know them really well all they talk about is their feelings and they try to get you to reveal your feelings on certain things. All of which are topics I really don't care much for, but to be fair it could be because these are female NFs. I'm simultaneously in love with one, and the other is in love with me (love triangles ftw). I start to find them annoying when they get on the emotional issues to be frank, but they're fun to have around. 

I suppose they're our "equals looking through the mirror", but I don't usually think that way. However, they're definitely better than SP and SJs. I do find solving their issues to be pretty entertaining. They can't distance themselves emotionally from situations so it's usually a quick fix.


----------



## RyRyMini (Apr 12, 2010)

Magnificent Bastard said:


> Although I admire NFs' noble intentions (they tend to be good people), I find fault in their way of arriving a the truth. It seems to me that their way of arriving at the truth is entirely personal and subjective. Just because you feel that something is so doesn't make it so. There are billions of other people like you that feel different things.
> 
> At least logic is relatively universal.


Not an especially valid argument coming from a Ti user, as that function is far from universal.


----------



## thedavidhooker (Jan 24, 2011)

Van said:


> That's interesting. I really like hearing from your perspective. Unfortunately I don't know any NFs well (massive introvert!) so I don't have much to tell you.
> Oh, and about being right all the time... yeah I can be like that, but there's usually a huge amount of self-critique going on to refine the idea first. I think NTs are pretty hard on themselves that way. I wonder if there's an NF equivalent to that?


Glad you liked it! To answer you question, speaking as an INFJ of course, we do have a self-critique going on but it's based more upon feelings & empathy than a logical thought process. For example, we'll beat ourselves up over not being able to help someone that was depressed or in a slump and we'll keep going over what we assume we did wrong in our minds until we figure out another way that might work (again, based upon feelings). Granted, it's not exactly like self-critiquing ideas to make certain that they're completely logical but I feel (see, the feeling again; haha) that it's as close as it can become.



Magnificent Bastard said:


> Although I admire NFs' noble intentions (they tend to be good people), I find fault in their way of arriving a the truth. It seems to me that their way of arriving at the truth is entirely personal and subjective. Just because you feel that something is so doesn't make it so. There are billions of other people like you that feel different things.
> 
> At least logic is relatively universal.


I'll admit, I am pretty envious of the logical thought process of NTs. It really amazes me how you guys organize and lay out your ideas. However, while I do believe that one should not base everything upon their emotions, and that reason does play a huge role, I also believe there are some truths that you cannot reach through reason; that you must go beyond reason in order to experience such truths. Similar to Kierkegaard's ideas of faith, you must take a leap of faith (not out of blind-beliefs) but out of an intrinsic, inductive understanding.

Now, I've been pondering this for awhile now and would like you NTs to ponder it as well and let me know what you think... 

Okay, it goes without saying that Intuitive Thinking is your strong suite and only becomes more precise, accurate & effective over time. The Intuitive Feeling function for the Idealists also becomes stronger and more precise over time as well. Now, if an Intuitive Feeling becomes just has accurate & precise as your Intuitive Thinking, would it then (essentially) harness a truth similar to a logical truth? (I'm not necessarily saying it would be the _same_ truth, but a truth equal to that of a one which was reached through a rational mental process.)


----------



## Mr.Xl Vii (Jan 19, 2011)

thedavidhooker said:


> Okay, it goes without saying that Intuitive Thinking is your strong suite and only becomes more precise, accurate & effective over time. The Intuitive Feeling function for the Idealists also becomes stronger and more precise over time as well. Now, if an Intuitive Feeling becomes just has accurate & precise as your Intuitive Thinking, would it then (essentially) harness a truth similar to a logical truth? (I'm not necessarily saying it would be the _same_ truth, but a truth equal to that of a one which was reached through a rational mental process.)


I can see that being the case, but wouldn't the Intuitive feeling be based around the atmosphere in a room or something to that effect? For example, an NT and an NF would be in an a meeting and we're trying to get what we want from the board. The NT would probably analyze the people in the and appeal to each person's thought process, wheres the NF would appeal to everyone's emotions (get them riled up and backing your idea). The outcome is the same, but the process by which it was went about is entirely different. 

That might not be the best example of intuitive feeling, but I suppose both methods have their merit. NFs will have the empathy route and NTs will relate via thought processes. I both would come in handy and could be as effective as the other.


----------



## Magnificent Bastard (Sep 22, 2010)

RyRyMini said:


> Not an especially valid argument coming from a Ti user, as that function is far from universal.


I'm talking about syllogistic thinking. NTs tend to think syllogistically. When NTs discuss things, all the nonsense gets eventually weeded out through our way of communicating. 

It might take time; and not all NTs are capable of constructing and delivering valid and sound arguments all the time. But we do it the best out of all 4 subgroup types because of the way we think.


----------



## thedavidhooker (Jan 24, 2011)

Mr.Xl Vii said:


> I can see that being the case, but wouldn't the Intuitive feeling be based around the atmosphere in a room or something to that effect? For example, an NT and an NF would be in an a meeting and we're trying to get what we want from the board. The NT would probably analyze the people in the and appeal to each person's thought process, wheres the NF would appeal to everyone's emotions (get them riled up and backing your idea). The outcome is the same, but the process by which it was went about is entirely different.
> 
> That might not be the best example of intuitive feeling, but I suppose both methods have their merit. NFs will have the empathy route and NTs will relate via thought processes. I both would come in handy and could be as effective as the other.


Essentially! What I'm trying to get at is that Idealists receive plenty of criticism for depending upon their feelings too often, and I can understand why. But what a lot of people don't seem to understand or notice is that NFs are very in tune with their feeling, I'd even say as much as an NT is in tune with their thought process. I'll admit, there are NFs whom haven't harnessed such control and give NFs like myself a bad reputation. However, feelings (while chaotic) can be organised & applied as effectively as a rational mind. I believe the reverse to be true as well, a chaotic & irrational thought process is just as dangerous as a uncontrolled feeling. 

Which brings me back to the previous point I was making about faith. I had noticed someone left a post in regards to it being below logic (at least that's how I interpreted it, apologies if I was mistaken), so I figured I'd explained what my concept of faith is. While I feel that the majority of faith is nothing more than dogmatic belief, I feel that true faith should be based upon an intuitive process of stable, controlled feelings. That is, an Intuitive Feeling process in which you gather truths that cannot be reached through reason or logic. I believe that if one learns to harness & apply their intuitive feelings (much like an NT harnessing their intuitive thinking) then a truth can be reached that won't just be mutuality exclusive. Whether or not you would be able to put that truth into words is difficult to say, but I'm confident in it's application.


----------



## Magnificent Bastard (Sep 22, 2010)

thedavidhooker said:


> Glad you liked it! To answer you question, speaking as an INFJ of course, we do have a self-critique going on but it's based more upon feelings & empathy than a logical thought process. For example, we'll beat ourselves up over not being able to help someone that was depressed or in a slump and we'll keep going over what we assume we did wrong in our minds until we figure out another way that might work (again, based upon feelings). Granted, it's not exactly like self-critiquing ideas to make certain that they're completely logical but I feel (see, the feeling again; haha) that it's as close as it can become.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree that there are emotional truths to be derived from the connections between people. Most definitely. This is what comprises great works of drama (not comedy, mind you). When I experience something very emotional (usually through some kind of art), I definitely feel something that I cannot and do not want to rationalize. 

I think the logical realm and emotional realm are two different realms. It's just that emotional solutions should not be applied to the logical realm, and vice versa. 

I think this is what pisses off NTs about NFs. NTs look for logical solutions, whereas NFs want to swim in an ocean of emotions, which can be powerful and beautiful, but does not provide any kind of solution to conceptual (and sometimes thus practical) problem.


----------



## Raichan (Jul 15, 2010)

Going on a ''oh I will always be more right than you'' based on either being the more logical or more idealist type is childish. Claiming you would always be right based on ''T'' priority alone AND also claiming that you would be more loving based on ''F'' priority alone is frankly - childish bullshit.

People are not black and white like that, it depends on the issues and circumstances.


----------



## clawsthatcatch (Feb 1, 2011)

I don't think that all NFs are as irrational as some NTs are implying. I know some very intelligent NFs who are very talented at science. It is irrational to write off the whole group.


----------



## Eylrid (Jun 25, 2009)

Obsidean said:


> I love disscussing issues with NFs, they give me a lot of insight but as you guys said; I always think that I'm right and they're wrong lol


"You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right" - xkcd: Science Valentine mouse-over text

If you have put in the time and effort to become right then you have every right to stand up for it. Of course you also have to distinguish between facts and opinions. Facts are objective. They are either right or wrong. Opinions are by definition subjective. There are many differing opinions that are acceptable. Defend the facts, respect the opinions.


----------



## TiNeSi (Jan 10, 2011)

Interesting clip. I certainly don't see NFs as inferior. However, at times I find it easier to communicate with STPs thant NFPs (not sure abour NFJs but I think the dynamic is different). Also, at times NFs seem to think they get me when they don't.


----------

