# The difference between ISFP and INFP lyric writing...



## OrangeAppled

polaroid sea said:


> i actually used to think thom yorke was an INFJ but am now 99% sure he's an INFP on the F borderline.


I always see him typed INFJ, and I'm not a big Radiohead fan, so I just accepted it. I see him as an Idealist though, for sure. 

Concrete imagery can be used by either an S or N; it's _how_ it is used and for what purpose. Radiohead's song are usually conceptual in topic. I find sensor music more literal (talking in generalities).


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## fantasista

In interviews and that he seems really cynical and callous,which I always find so hard to believe, but I think Noel Gallagher's lyrics are really INFP-ish. I find they really speak to me, anyway. :bored:


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## cardinalfire

What about this guy?


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## Third Engine

wannaberockstar said:


> In interviews and that he seems really cynical and callous,which I always find so hard to believe, but I think Noel Gallagher's lyrics are really INFP-ish. I find they really speak to me, anyway. :bored:
> 
> YouTube - Oasis Whatever
> 
> YouTube - Oasis - Rock 'N' Roll Star
> 
> YouTube - Don't Look Back In Anger
> 
> YouTube - Oasis - Live Forever (Live in Scotland)
> 
> YouTube - Oasis Live By The Sea - Part Seven


Nah, Noel doesn't strike me as an INFP at all. Most of his lyrics are nonsense according to him. I still love Oasis either way.

I think the early emo movement could've been INFP driven. How bout these guys?


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## fantasista

Haha, yes, the likes of Supersonic, Shakermaker, Some Might Say, Digsy's Dinner, etc. are clearly just nonsense, and I find them awesome because of that. :crazy: But I can't really see how songs like Whatever, Talk Tonight, D'Yer Wanna Be a Spaceman and those could possibly be just nosense. Noel always projects this hard exterior but to me anyway I think his songs show that inside he's more sensitive.

As for emo... I find it really hard to believe that a lot of emo kids are really half as tortured/sensitive inside as they project themselves to be. Emo is mainly about fashion, and writing lyrics like 'this pain inside killing me, there's nobody who can save meeeeee.'


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## firedell




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## BryterLayter

wannaberockstar said:


> Haha, yes, the likes of Supersonic, Shakermaker, Some Might Say, Digsy's Dinner, etc. are clearly just nonsense, and I find them awesome because of that. :crazy: But I can't really see how songs like Whatever, Talk Tonight, D'Yer Wanna Be a Spaceman and those could possibly be just nosense. Noel always projects this hard exterior but to me anyway I think his songs show that inside he's more sensitive.
> 
> As for emo... I find it really hard to believe that a lot of emo kids are really half as tortured/sensitive inside as they project themselves to be. Emo is mainly about fashion, and writing lyrics like 'this pain inside killing me, there's nobody who can save meeeeee.'


i agree with you about modern emo and how its all just for the look and appeal.
but emo used to be just a poetic form of hardcore punk, but of course the industry had to violate it just like any good genre and now we have tokio hotel, hot topic, skinny jeans and the stupid emo haircut.


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## IamOpening

WNF said:


> OrangeAppled, as a fellow Cocteau Twins fan, do you think Liz Fraser is an INFP?
> 
> I get the sense that ISFP's are more picturesque than INFP's when they write lyrics. INFP's try harder to get an emotion across, a soundscape, not an image or description.
> 
> oh right, example:
> YouTube - Cocteau Twins - Bluebeard


As a writer, it has always been my main goal to convey emotion. In my creative writing class, I have learned that the creation of specific detail (sound, sight, touch, smell, taste) are what best create emotion. I've learned that when you write, you want to create the scene as vividly as possible, without telling your reader how they are supposed to feel. Rather, you provide the circumstances for them to sense the story, and feel it based on the descriptions they are given. Does that make sense?
This initially was hard for me, but I've since found that writing in this way does indeed create much more emotional stories and poems, more readily accessible to the reader.

Oh and for the topic, I feel like James Mercer might be an INFP, probably ISFP though.






A cold and wet November dawn
And there are no barking sparrows 
Just emptiness to dwell upon
I fell into a winter slide
And ended up the kind of kid
Who goes down Chutes Too Narrow
Just eking out my measly pipes

But I learned fast how to
Keep my head up 'cause I
Know there is this side of me that
Wants to grab the yoke from the pilot
And just fly the whole mess into the sea

Another slow train to the coast
Some brand new gory art from way on high
I sink and then I swim all night

I watch the ice melt on the glass
While the eloquent young pilgrims pass
And leave behind their trail
Imploring us all not to fail

Of course I was raised to
Gather courage from those 
Lofty tales so tried and true, but
If you're able
I'd suggest it, 'cause this
Modern thought can get the best of you

This rather simple epitaph
Can save your hide, your falling mind
Fate isn't what we're up against
There's no design, no flaws to find

But I learned fast how to
Keep my head up, 'cause I
Know I've got this side of me that
Wants to grab the yoke from the pilot
And just fly the whole mess into the sea


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## thegirlcandance

I would naturally assume an ISFP would write lyrics in a more concrete fashion... with an "this is that it is" fashion.
An INFP would probably use more symbolism and try to write it in a more abstract fashion so the other person has to piece together the puzzle so the reader has to figure out what they are really talking about.

But, I could also see an INFP write some rather simple lyrics and just put it to some unique/new rhythm and sound.
After all, I have read that Michael Jackson was an INFJ, but he didn't have too complex lyrics - just a unique sound for his time.


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## firedell

thegirlcandance said:


> After all, I have read that Michael Jackson was an INFJ, but he didn't have too complex lyrics - just a unique sound for his time.



ISFP


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## cardinalfire

thegirlcandance said:


> After all, I have read that Michael Jackson was an INFJ, but he didn't have too complex lyrics - just a unique sound for his time.





inebriato said:


> ISFP
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPjfMSn4f6c


Don't worry about her girlcandance, she is just very protective of her ISFP ness, lol...

I laugh, though it isn't a joke.... SHE REALLY IS!

:laughing:

Love you I


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## firedell

cardinalfire said:


> Don't worry about her girlcandance, she is just very protective of her ISFP ness, lol...
> 
> I laugh, though it isn't a joke.... SHE REALLY IS!
> 
> :laughing:
> 
> Love you I


We gotta fight for our right to party. Everyone likes to claim high Fi as INFP, so I gotta protect us, you know? :sad:

You didn't arrange the words correctly.


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## cardinalfire

inebriato said:


> We gotta fight for our right to party. Everyone likes to claim high Fi as INFP, so I gotta protect us, you know? :sad:
> 
> You didn't arrange the words correctly.


What words? *missed it completely*


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## OrangeAppled

inebriato said:


> ISFP
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPjfMSn4f6c


I agree...I think he is ISFP also.


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## cardinalfire

This lyric reminds me of INFP "Don't Stop thinking about tomorrow..."


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## saynomore

Sinead O'Connor










Definitely more pathos & ethos than logos, which I can relate to. Does that make her an infp? Not familiar enough with her material to take a gander at that.


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## deepestblue

cardinalfire said:


> This came on in a club when me and my friend were out on Tuesday, what do you make of this... ISFP or INFP?


I'd say definitely an SP. It doesn't look like ISFP, but more like ESFP. I honestly never was into their music.


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## OrangeAppled

Here are just a few artists I think are ISFP, for contrast:

Karen O (Yeah Yeah Yeahs)
PJ Harvey
Dan Whitford (Cut Copy)
Bernard Sumner (New Order)
Elizabeth Fraser (Cocteau Twins)

I didn't type these, but they've been suggested by others:

bob dylan
jimi hendrix
johnny cash
tom waits
stuart murdoch (I think INFP...)
feist
mike ness
neil young
michael jackson
eric clapton
ozzy osbourne
jon bon jovi
gavin rossdale
jack johnson
mark kozelek
chris cornell
joni mitchell
deborah harry (I think ESFP....)
will oldham
m ward
ben harper
jewel
lenny kravitz
adrian belew


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## Xplosive

Nas is a good example of an INFP rapper.


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## hungryfooligan

AvaAdore said:


> "i'm not like them but i can pretend" Dumb by Nirvana. that line shows INFP's longing for acceptance and their insecurities or at least thats how i take it. "And I'll pull your crooked teeth , You'll be perfect just like me ,You'll be a lover in my bed and a gun to my head" - Ava Adore by Smashing Pumpkins . the first line shows the idealist part of INFP by changing the bad qualities of someone to fit your ideal, the next line " you'll be a lover in my bed and a gun to my head" i would say is about the distrust of INFP's and how we are slow to show outward affection. and also how we believe that if we throw our feelings out there that the other person will just use them against us to hurt us. ah i don't know i'm sure i'll eventually come up with more
> 
> yes the river knows,
> Ava Adore


This is a good analysis, I think Jill Scott and Jeff Buckley can also be added to the list


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## A Thewiouth Fellow

OrangeAppled said:


> Robert Smith of the Cure is a good prototype for the INFP song-writer, IMO.
> 
> INFPs will likely use a lot of metaphor, symbolism, may reference literature/poetry they love, usually have some idealistic views coming through the lyrics, may enjoy dark/morbid imagery & tragic themes, display a sense of romanticism, & have a natural rhythm in phrasing words. They may be less technically adept at their instrument than an ISFP (not always), but may also be more innovative.
> 
> Another poster once said that ISFP music is like honey and INFP music like broken glass . That doesn't mean INFP music is unpleasant, but I have noticed a tendency for "chaos", even when it's melodic and beautiful music. There's less need to make "sense" or follow a set structure in composing a song.
> 
> Other INFP song-writers (or likely INFP):
> Martin Gore (Depeche Mode)
> Kurt Cobain
> William Reid (Jesus & Mary Chain)
> Cat Power
> Fiona Apple
> Ian Curtis (Joy Division)
> Paul Banks (Interpol...maybe INTP though)
> 
> Some more from a list made somewhere else:
> beck
> conor oberst
> elliot smith
> joanna newsom
> kate bush
> nick drake
> van morrison
> stephen malkmus
> jerry garcia
> charlie parker
> kevin shields
> sarah mclachlan
> james taylor
> jeff tweedy
> gary numan


You know, Nick Drake always struck me as a bit of an isfp more than anything, simply based on the fact that he was self-taught, screwed with tunings a lot, and stayed up far too late playing music. These are things I can totally relate to.

Generally, the way I see it is that isfps tend to focus on the music first, then add fitting lyrics later, whereas infps are much more lyric-driven. I've noticed this in my sister (infp), who'll create melodies purely out of the words she sings. I find that that's almost entirely unnatural to me, but I wonder if anyone here can relate?


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## BryterLayter

A Thewiouth Fellow said:


> You know, Nick Drake always struck me as a bit of an isfp more than anything, simply based on the fact that he was self-taught, screwed with tunings a lot, and stayed up far too late playing music. These are things I can totally relate to.
> 
> Generally, the way I see it is that isfps tend to focus on the music first, then add fitting lyrics later, whereas infps are much more lyric-driven. I've noticed this in my sister (infp), who'll create melodies purely out of the words she sings. I find that that's almost entirely unnatural to me, but I wonder if anyone here can relate?


that makes sense. i do the same thing your sister does with songwriting. in fact if i come up with something on the guitar, it becomes impossible for me to write lyrics for it. 
its strange how our minds work like that.


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## etherealuntouaswithin

~Nas is a good example of an INFP rapper.~




" a modern shakespeare,reincarnated"


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## PrinceinExile

Looking over INFP lyricists I find more in common with the ISFP lyricists and my own writings.

Anyone have an idea what Chester and Mike of Linkin park and Mike of Fort Minor might be. 






The writer is Mike but Chester is singing.






Also mike but he's doing the rapping on this one too.






I can't type them at all myself because they both co-write (most of) their songs, they both seem like F to me but that's it.






(This one sounds INFP-ish to me.)


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## Thalassa

INFP:





 
ISFP:





 

Both beautiful, moving songs, I have equal respect for both artists, but I think these two illustrate the difference fairly well.


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## Thalassa

AvaAdore said:


> i agree with you about modern emo and how its all just for the look and appeal.
> but emo used to be just a poetic form of hardcore punk, but of course the industry had to violate it just like any good genre and now we have tokio hotel, hot topic, skinny jeans and the stupid emo haircut.


Aesthetics are not the enemy. I believe it is possible to be both poetic and appreciate literature, and also to be able to appreciate things which look cool and sound good, too. I do.


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## PrinceinExile

fourtines said:


> Both beautiful, moving songs, I have equal respect for both artists, but I think these two illustrate the difference fairly well.


Is the difference that the INFP the lyrics are near incomparable without a map, and that ISFP is easy and consience? Or am I way off on both?


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## Thalassa

PrinceinExile said:


> Is the difference that the INFP the lyrics are near incomparable without a map, and that ISFP is easy and consience? Or am I way off on both?


 
Yes, I don't know about incomprehensible, but INFP lyrics tend to be full of metaphor and simile, or references to things like literature and art like OrangeAppled mentioned with Robert Smith of the Cure:

*Charlotte Sometimes* :



> All the faces
> All the voices blur
> Change to one face
> Change to one voice
> Prepare yourself for bed
> The light seems bright
> And glares on white walls
> All the sounds of
> Charlotte sometimes
> Into the night with
> Charlotte sometimes
> 
> Night after night she lay alone in bed
> Her eyes so open to the dark
> The streets all looked so strange
> They seemed so far away
> But Charlotte did not cry
> 
> The people seemed so close
> Playing expressionless games
> The people seemed
> So close
> So many
> Other names...
> 
> Sometimes I'm dreaming
> Where all the other people dance
> Sometimes I'm dreaming
> Charlotte sometimes
> Sometimes I'm dreaming
> Expressionless the trance
> Sometimes I'm dreaming
> So many different names
> Sometimes I'm dreaming
> The sounds all stay the same
> Sometimes I'm dreaming
> She hopes to open shadowed eyes
> On a different world
> Come to me
> Scared princess
> Charlotte sometimes
> 
> On that bleak track
> (See the sun is gone again)
> The tears were pouring down her face
> She was crying and crying for a girl
> Who died so many years before...
> 
> Sometimes I dream
> Where all the other people dance
> Sometimes I dream
> Charlotte sometimes
> Sometimes I dream
> The sounds all stay the same
> Sometimes I'm dreaming
> There are so many different names
> Sometimes I dream
> Sometimes I dream...
> 
> Charlotte sometimes crying for herself
> Charlotte sometimes dreams a wall around herself
> But it's always with love
> With so much love it looks like
> Everything else
> Of Charlotte sometimes
> So far away
> Glass sealed and pretty
> Charlotte sometimes
> All the faces
> All the voices blur
> Change to one face
> Change to one voice
> Prepare yourself for bed
> The light seems bright
> And glares on white walls
> All the sounds of
> Charlotte sometimes
> Into the night with
> Charlotte sometimes
> 
> Night after night she lay alone in bed
> Her eyes so open to the dark
> The streets all looked so strange
> They seemed so far away
> But Charlotte did not cry
> 
> The people seemed so close
> Playing expressionless games
> The people seemed
> So close
> So many
> Other names...
> 
> Sometimes I'm dreaming
> Where all the other people dance
> Sometimes I'm dreaming
> Charlotte sometimes
> Sometimes I'm dreaming
> Expressionless the trance
> Sometimes I'm dreaming
> So many different names
> Sometimes I'm dreaming
> The sounds all stay the same
> Sometimes I'm dreaming
> She hopes to open shadowed eyes
> On a different world
> Come to me
> Scared princess
> Charlotte sometimes
> 
> On that bleak track
> (See the sun is gone again)
> The tears were pouring down her face
> She was crying and crying for a girl
> Who died so many years before...
> 
> Sometimes I dream
> Where all the other people dance
> Sometimes I dream
> Charlotte sometimes
> Sometimes I dream
> The sounds all stay the same
> Sometimes I'm dreaming
> There are so many different names
> Sometimes I dream
> Sometimes I dream...
> 
> Charlotte sometimes crying for herself
> Charlotte sometimes dreams a wall around herself
> But it's always with love
> With so much love it looks like
> Everything else
> Of Charlotte sometimes
> So far away
> Glass sealed and pretty
> Charlotte sometimes


 

Or, the Nick Cave song for example is one big huge metaphor. If you listen closely a few times it becomes clear what he's talking about, but it's not about bad winter weather.

In some cases, yes, INFP lyrics are hard to understand, like with Kurt Cobain.

With ISFPs they are more straight forward, like with the Yeah Yeah Yeahs ...or just tell a story like PJ Harvey. PJ Harvey isn't as straight forward as say, Michael Jackson...she puts a fair bit of Ni symbolism into her music, but songs like _Come on Billy _and _Down By the Water _still tell a story.


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## PrinceinExile

fourtines said:


> Yes, I don't know about incomprehensible, but INFP lyrics tend to be full of metaphor and simile, or references to things like literature and art like OrangeAppled mentioned with Robert Smith of the Cure:
> 
> *Charlotte Sometimes* :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or, the Nick Cave song for example is one big huge metaphor. If you listen closely a few times it becomes clear what he's talking about, but it's not about bad winter weather.
> 
> In some cases, yes, INFP lyrics are hard to understand, like with Kurt Cobain.


Oh okay, I understand now so a song like _White Christmas 
_ would be an INFP song because it's not about snow , it's about death, right?


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## Galaris

Okay, I always thought Kurt Cobain was an INTP


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## Thalassa

PrinceinExile said:


> Oh okay, I understand now so a song like _White Christmas _
> would be an INFP song because it's not about snow , it's about death, right?


Why? ISFPs can use Ni symbolism...but the Ni symbols are fairly easy to figure out ...like in "Pins" by Yeah Yeah Yeahs it's obvious she's not talking about pins, but it's fairly clear what she means by the last verse. When ISFPs use metaphor or symbolism it's generally easier to figure out what they're referencing, it's used as an embellishment to the greater context of the song rather than being the essence of the song itself. 

Of course, then again, in the Yeah Yeah Yeahs there's an ISFP, and ISFJ, and an INFx...so I don't know how responsible the INFx is for some of their lyrics, actually. HOWEVER, their lyrics tend to be pretty straight forward, catchy, even hypnotically repetitive - and that hypnotic repetitive method is a function of sound and aesthetics rather than "meaning." It makes the song SOUND better, but not necessarily give it more lyrical meaning.

I actually had to stop and think if I wrote a song would I write like an INFP or an ISFP...I'm heavily inclined toward metaphor, but not to the extent of someone like Nick Cave or Kurt Cobain, and I like story.

Sometimes I think I'm one of those borderline in-between people, maybe PJ Harvey is a good example (again) of a musician/lyricist for whom the S/N line isn't as clear, because it's really obvious to me that someone like Micheal Jackson, Christina Agulera, or Justin Timberlake is most certainly an ISFP, but with others like PJ Harvey or even Bob Dylan the line is more questionable at times, and you have to ask if they're using Ne or Se/Ni.


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## Thalassa

OrangeAppled said:


> I'd say Se over Ne. Focus is on the experience and it uses a lot of concrete imagery in a pretty literal way. It's random at times, but not really abstract. I see RHCP as a very SP band, but that's me. I'd guess that Kiedis is ESFP...but IDK how he is usually typed.
> 
> Compare it to Beck's randomness, which refers more to concepts over observations if you try to make sense of it :laughing:.


RHCP is a good example of SP music that could be somewhat confused with Ne-ish lyrics because of all of the symbolism..I mean if you listen to songs like "Higher Ground" or "Blood Sugar Sex Magic" or "Aeroplane" they aren't exactly the most literal songs in the world, but yes, they are filled with very sensory images, and the overall "feel" of RHCP is SP.



IamOpening said:


> As a writer, it has always been my main goal to convey emotion. In my creative writing class, I have learned that the creation of specific detail (sound, sight, touch, smell, taste) are what best create emotion. I've learned that when you write, you want to create the scene as vividly as possible, without telling your reader how they are supposed to feel. Rather, you provide the circumstances for them to sense the story, and feel it based on the descriptions they are given. Does that make sense?
> This initially was hard for me, but I've since found that writing in this way does indeed create much more emotional stories and poems, more readily accessible to the reader.
> 
> Oh and for the topic, I feel like James Mercer might be an INFP, probably ISFP though.


Yes...The Shins...wow. I don't even know, it does seem to lean toward sensory imagery and symbols rather than Ne, I guess? I'd love to know other people's opinions on this, but yeah, probably ISFP.

I'm actually basing this upon "New Slang" which is one of my favorite songs, it's really intense sensing imagery, but if you had asked me without thinking first I might have said INFP. Hmm.

I would also like to add here that when I was younger I would write paragraphs and paragraphs of nonsense that were pure sensory imagery, in fact, I love writing about imagery and I remember my first attempt at writing a novel was complicated because I was very into the sensory descriptions, the scenes, the symbols, and even character development...but I couldn't figure out what the hell they were doing there or why. Plot and purpose were harder for me. I tend almost to want to write the way a French art house film looks...slice of life with intense emotion, that kind of thing.


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## PrinceinExile

Galaris said:


> Okay, I always thought Kurt Cobain was an INTP



How so? He seemed too... well for lack of a better word Angsty to be an INTP.


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## wisdom

This is a great thread...



> INFPs will likely use a lot of metaphor, symbolism, may reference literature/poetry they love, usually have some idealistic views coming through the lyrics, may enjoy dark/morbid imagery & tragic themes, display a sense of romanticism, & have a natural rhythm in phrasing words. They may be less technically adept at their instrument than an ISFP (not always), but may also be more innovative.


Diane Warren? She has a very INFP demeanor and probably lifestyle, but on lyrics? I wonder if she's made a conscious choice to not get much into metaphor, symbolism, and other heavy stuff. By mentioning her, I'm trying to counter an assumption that INFP musical expression can't be intentionally mainstream.

Category:Songs written by Diane Warren - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.taxi.com/transmitter/0811/diane-warren_hard-working-songwriter.html

http://johnbraheny.skyrocket.me/diane-warren-interview/


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## m_dogg

A Thewiouth Fellow said:


> You know, Nick Drake always struck me as a bit of an isfp more than anything, simply based on the fact that he was self-taught, screwed with tunings a lot, and stayed up far too late playing music. These are things I can totally relate to.
> 
> Generally, the way I see it is that isfps tend to focus on the music first, then add fitting lyrics later, whereas infps are much more lyric-driven. I've noticed this in my sister (infp), who'll create melodies purely out of the words she sings. I find that that's almost entirely unnatural to me, but I wonder if anyone here can relate?


Yup. Lyrics are a synch mainly because the best ones I write are on the spot either while I'm writing a song or just randomly singing (hat I do when everyone has left the house). I see words as another brushstroke to the beauty of life, but words alone seem silly to me. For that reason, I see Beck and Elton John being more on the sensing side. You know, words more for the purpose of fulfilling a song rather than music played to emphasize a ballad or poem. 

What about Federico Garcia Lorca? Everything he wrote was highly metaphorical, yet literal at the same time. And most of his poems were songs.


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## Knight_In_Rags

cardinalfire said:


> Is there one?
> 
> I know the ISFPs are the composer/artist types, I would put Dylan, Jim Morrison, and possibly Paul McCartney in this category because they have a lot of imagery and 'sense based' lyrics in their songs...
> 
> What would you guys give as examples of singer/songwriters who are more INFP types?
> 
> and how does this show in their choice of words - THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART I am trying to work out... It might not show at all...
> 
> What do you guys feel about this?
> 
> Get as analytical as you like... but .... but ... please show some youtube examples in your posts... I don't like reading heavy analysis without something to show for it... Personal preference, got nothing against you...


OWL CITY'S ADAM YOUNG. His lyrics are so INFP because he's an INFP. The song "Fireflies" is a good example


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## milti

I always thought Elliot Smith was an INTP. Or maybe just a very very sad INFP. But his pain seems so - _muted_. I love "Everything means nothing to me."

And I think the Cure is an INFP band, just in general. "Pictures of you" seems like the most Fi song I've eve heard in my life, and I 
always tear up when I hear it. "Friday I'm in Love" has a desperation to it that its jolly-ness masks, very Fi again. 

I'm not completely sure but I would like to think Five for Fighting is INFP as well, or has some sort of NF vibe anyway. "The Riddle" is one of the most lovely songs I've heard.

The Decemberists are quite NF as well.

Dido is an INFx and her music reflects that.

Also, Nick Drake is a complete INFP. Listen to "Northern Sky" and you'll see that no one but an INFP can come up with metaphor like that.

Keane is an INFP band - in my opinion, anyway.


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## milti

I always thought Elliot Smith was an INTP. Or maybe just a very very sad INFP. But his pain seems so - _muted_. I love "Everything means nothing to me."

And I think the Cure is an INFP band, just in general. "Pictures of you" seems like the most Fi song I've eve heard in my life, and I always tear up when I hear it. "Friday I'm in Love" has a desperation to it that its jolly-ness masks, very Fi again. 

I'm not completely sure but I would like to think Five for Fighting is INFP as well, or has some sort of NF vibe anyway. "The Riddle" is one of the most lovely songs I've heard.

The Decemberists are quite NF as well.

Dido is an INFx and her music reflects that.

Also, Nick Drake is a complete INFP. Listen to "Northern Sky" and you'll see that no one but an INFP can come up with metaphor like that.

Keane is an INFP band - in my opinion, anyway.

The Fray is an NF band too. I think the main dude is an ENFP. 

Oasis is also xNFP. 

Imogen Heap's music seems INFJ but she's an ENFP. Either way, NF.

I think there are pretty obvious and marked differences between NFs and SFs in poetry/songwriting. Adele is an ISFP with heavy Fi and her music is more about reachable, understandable experience, not something as fleeting or subtle as an NF would sing about.

I totally agree with @Knight_In_Rags, owl City is _the most_ INFP band I've ever come across, and their lyrics are the cutest in the world. I love Owl City. 

*ugh I hate when the double post happens. It gives an error and then re-posts it when I refresh. Sorry. :/


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## m_dogg

How about irrational and incredibly emotional beyond the point of self destruction. Angsty doesn't cover it.


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## Knight_In_Rags

milti girl said:


> I totally agree with @Knight_In_Rags, owl City is _the most_ INFP band I've ever come across, and their lyrics are the cutest in the world. I love Owl City.


Owl City isn't a band though. It's a music project by Adam Young. So technically it's one person :]


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## sitodocambia

Brandon Flowers (lead singer of the Killers) is most likely an INFP. I think for most INFPs the meaning of the song is more important than the image, if that makes sense. So, songs written by an INFP will be more abstract, less concrete, and any imagery will be less vivid. For ISFPs (like Lady Gaga who is NOT an INFP), the reverse is true. You can notice this in lyrics such as "I wanna stand up. I wanna let go. You know you know no you don't you don't," (All These Things I've Done by the Killers) which is more abstract and difficult to decipher as opposed to lyrics like "I wanna hold 'em like they do in Texas, please. Fold 'em, let 'em hit me, raise it baby stay with me," (Poker Face by Lady Gaga), which is much more concrete and has a much more obvious, literal meaning. Also, the former uses wild abstractions from specific details (Ne-Si), while the latter uses imaginative metaphors backed by imagery (Se-Ni).


----------



## sitodocambia

The singer of Linkin Park is definitely Fi-dom. I'm pretty sure he's an INFP.


----------



## m_dogg

sitodocambia said:


> Brandon Flowers (lead singer of the Killers) is most likely an INFP. I think for most INFPs the meaning of the song is more important than the image, if that makes sense. So, songs written by an INFP will be more abstract, less concrete, and any imagery will be less vivid. For ISFPs (like Lady Gaga who is NOT an INFP), the reverse is true. You can notice this in lyrics such as "I wanna stand up. I wanna let go. You know you know no you don't you don't," (All These Things I've Done by the Killers) which is more abstract and difficult to decipher as opposed to lyrics like "I wanna hold 'em like they do in Texas, please. Fold 'em, let 'em hit me, raise it baby stay with me," (Poker Face by Lady Gaga), which is much more concrete and has a much more obvious, literal meaning. Also, the former uses wild abstractions from specific details (Ne-Si), while the latter uses imaginative metaphors backed by imagery (Se-Ni).


Woah, woah, woah. Just cuz us sensors think more with our 5 senses doesn't mean we never use metaphor or imagery. PLz. Look at Van Gogh, total ISFP, and his brush strokes DEFINE metaphor. You guys gotta give us some credit, we aren't total sobs for materialistic beauty and pleasure. We like to think about things too. And this is an ISFP and INFP discussion, I want more of our say!

You gotta remember, we are suckers for beauty of many kinds. The beauty of nature, that of catastrophe, of the mundane, the tragic, the wondrous, the unknown, the obvious, the ugly, and the goodness! So an ISFP would focus more on the loveliness of...well, anything, whereas an INFP would focus more on the inner meaning.

*INFP:*But what could it mean???!!
*ISFP:*Should it mean anything? It is what it is, which is wondrous in itself.

INFP= Federico Garcia Lorca, Kahlil Gibran, Thom Yorke.
ISFP= Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen, Paul Simon, and the movie Wings of Desire. The whole thing, epitome of ISFP.



And we are much deeper than Lady Gaga for Pete's sake.


----------



## psyche

fourtines said:


> HOWEVER, their lyrics tend to be pretty straight forward, catchy, even hypnotically repetitive - and that hypnotic repetitive method is a function of sound and aesthetics rather than "meaning." It makes the song SOUND better, but not necessarily give it more lyrical meaning.


This kind of turned on a lightbulb for me... I don't know how famous they are by now but there is a band called Warpaint I've been into for years and they seem to embody what you are saying, about a hypnotic repetitive sound... Would post an example but I'm not allowed to post videos yet. But more to the point they said in one interview that they could take a simple melody and just build on it with their instruments and voices for hours, and the finished songs are always long, with repetitive lyrics... And they just _sound_ really good. I think I probably listen to their music 75% because of how good it sounds. They do have good lyrics that I can relate to, but yes they are pretty straightforward or at least easily understandable and eventually just melt into the music anyway.

Also I'm obsessed with Mark Lanegan's music and it seems to have a similar dynamic, now that I think about it... And I think he must be an ISFP. A lot of times he'll just take something concrete like the way a river makes him feel, write a lyric about it until it expands and melts into this really good sounding bluesy music; I mean it's more about expressing feelings through a good sound than ideas, to me...

Hm, I seem to listen mostly to ISFP and to INFP musicians, hence why I was drawn to this thread I suppose... I'm an INFP and I write songs. I can't relate to the idea of just jamming for its own sake for hours for the sheer pleasure of it, the way ISFPs reportedly do... Very admirable, though. But I can relate to the need to focus on the sound, the music and not just the lyrics, definitely. And I also very much relate to what has been agreed upon here, about INFPs' lyrics being meaningful but difficult to understand, they're so symbolic almost surrealistically so... I'm like that, being straightforward doesn't come especially naturally to me.


----------



## Bel Esprit

Neil Diamond - INFP

Though I'm not sure if he wrote his music; i'm not familiar with it.


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## sitodocambia

I think you misinterpreted what I said. I was saying the same thing as you; that the meaning is central for INFPs whereas the sensory detail backed by metaphor is what ISFPs use (Se-Ni). I love ISFP musicians, and one of my best friends is an ISFP, and I don't think any of you are dull and unimaginative, not by a long shot. I'm sorry I came across that way. I just used Lady Gaga's lyrics as an example because her lyrics came to mind quicker than those of other ISFP artists (probably because I'm tired of people mistyping her as INFP).


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## m_dogg

m_dogg said:


> Woah, woah, woah. Just cuz us sensors think more with our 5 senses doesn't mean we never use metaphor or imagery. PLz. Look at Van Gogh, total ISFP, and his brush strokes DEFINE metaphor. You guys gotta give us some credit, we aren't total sobs for materialistic beauty and pleasure. We like to think about things too. And this is an ISFP and INFP discussion, I want more of our say!
> 
> You gotta remember, we are suckers for beauty of many kinds. The beauty of nature, that of catastrophe, of the mundane, the tragic, the wondrous, the unknown, the obvious, the ugly, and the goodness! So an ISFP would focus more on the loveliness of...well, anything, whereas an INFP would focus more on the inner meaning.
> 
> *INFP:*But what could it mean???!!
> *ISFP:*Should it mean anything? It is what it is, which is wondrous in itself.
> 
> INFP= Federico Garcia Lorca, Kahlil Gibran, Thom Yorke.
> ISFP= Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen, Paul Simon, and the movie Wings of Desire. The whole thing, epitome of ISFP.
> 
> 
> 
> And we are much deeper than Lady Gaga for Pete's sake.


Actually, I see Leonard Cohen being more INFP. and by beauty I mean, the values that make something or someone beautiful, rather than just the visual pleasure.


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## m_dogg

sitodocambia said:


> I think you misinterpreted what I said. I was saying the same thing as you; that the meaning is central for INFPs whereas the sensory detail backed by metaphor is what ISFPs use (Se-Ni). I love ISFP musicians, and one of my best friends is an ISFP, and I don't think any of you are dull and unimaginative, not by a long shot. I'm sorry I came across that way. I just used Lady Gaga's lyrics as an example because her lyrics came to mind quicker than those of other ISFP artists (probably because I'm tired of people mistyping her as INFP).


Gotcha. 

I got somewhat fiery cuz I felt like that was the attitude of most of this thread.


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## sitodocambia

I understand. The are a few people in general on this forum who try to pick on sensors way too much. Just because someone doesn't have your same personality preferences doesn't mean that you can't appreciate one another. Also, people seem to think that you can't use both your intuitive and your sensing qualities well, which is simply not true. It's kind of aggravating actually.


----------



## mimesis

OrangeAppled said:


> INFPs will likely use a lot of metaphor, symbolism, may reference literature/poetry they love, usually have some idealistic views coming through the lyrics, may enjoy dark/morbid imagery & tragic themes, display a sense of romanticism, & have a natural rhythm in phrasing words. They may be less technically adept at their instrument than an ISFP (not always), but may also be more innovative.
> 
> Another poster once said that ISFP music is like honey and INFP music like broken glass . That doesn't mean INFP music is unpleasant, but I have noticed a tendency for "chaos", even when it's melodic and beautiful music. There's less need to make "sense" or follow a set structure in composing a song.


I think it depends on the metaphor. It's not unusual to use metaphors and symbols in lyrics, especially when it comes to describing a feeling, or when the usual words fall short, which often seems to be the case. And many words or expressions we are used to are actually metaphors allready, like 'heartbroken', or 'uptight' or if you will, 'hot ass'. My hunch is, when the metaphor expresses a feeling, or in a hyperbolic way (like 'gun to my head') it's SF and when it's meant to describe a situation (to picture the big picture, so to speak), it can be NF. Usually metaphors are meant to explain something more complex in a simple way or a few words (like 'achilles heel'), and if it makes no sense, then either you don't get it (yet), or it's just a lousy methaphor. And even without too many metaphors it can be NF. 

So I'd say Ian Curtis is SF. And Kurt Cobain as well. And I think most mentioned are. Besides, I truly wonder if someone who killed himself not long after becoming a father can be called an idealist or someone looking at the 'big picture' and how things are interrelated. Although there is a relation between idealism and cynicism. 

Then again, 'Artist' or 'Idealist' are metaphors as well. Many singers are pretty extroverted and even crave for succes and social appreciation. Some artists are Judgers. Bono is an idealist, but my guess is he's ENFJ. 

But that doesn't matter I think for the difference between SF and NF

Nice topic though!

Two examples of NF...
Mysterious Ways, U2
Back to the middle, India Arie
(sorry, seems I'm too fresh as a member to post links or movies  )


----------



## mimesis

cardinalfire said:


> If what you say is true, and these guys are NFs then I can totally see what you're getting at. Beck writes lyrics that don't really make sense,


LOL :laughing:


----------



## mimesis

sitodocambia said:


> Fold 'em, let 'em hit me, raise it baby stay with me," (Poker Face by Lady Gaga), which is much more concrete and has a much more obvious, literal meaning.


I'd say that is a metaphor, comparing sex to gambling. And a good one. The risk taking, challenging one another, the adrenaline, trying to go a step further, while not showing your fear. And even more associations possible. (hit me, raise it, etc.)


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## mimesis

psyche said:


> I mean it's more about expressing feelings through a good sound than ideas, to me...
> 
> And I also very much relate to what has been agreed upon here, about INFPs' lyrics being meaningful but difficult to understand, they're so symbolic almost surrealistically so... I'm like that, being straightforward doesn't come especially naturally to me.


When it expresses feelings, doesn't make it meaningless or trivial, and it's not neccesarily perfectly clear what it is about. An idea wouldn't be meaningful to people if it wouldn't somehow appeal to a certain feeling, that people can relate to. Even when it's somewhat surrealistic like Strawberry Fields Forever. But take for instance, Disorder by Ian Curtis of Joy Division from the album Unknown Pleasures. This is (I think) about his first experiences with sex as an adolescent. His eagerness to learn about it, to become a man, but as he discovers what excites him, guided by his primal instincts (to procreate the innocence), it also confuses him, because these instincts seem to take over and he feels he dehumanizes. 

And that's pretty profound and meaningful. But still, ISFP.


Joy Division - Disorder

I've been waiting for a guide to come
and take me by the hand
Could these sensations make me feel
the pleasures of a normal man
New sensations bear the innocence -
leave them for another day
I've got the spirit, lose the feeling
take the shock away

It's getting faster, moving faster now,
it's getting out of hand
On the tenth floor, down the backstairs
into no-man's land
Lights are flashing,
cars are crashing,
getting frequent now
I've got the spirit, lose the feeling, let it out somehow

What means to you,
what means to me -
when we will meet again
I'm watching you, I watch it all
I take no pity from your friends
Who is right and who can tell,
and who gives a damn right now
Until the spirit, new sensation
takes hold - then you know 
I've got the spirit, but lose the feeling 
I've got the spirit, but lose the feeling 
I've got the spirit, but lose the feeling 
Feeling, Feeling, Feeling...


----------



## OrangeAppled

mimesis said:


> I think it depends on the metaphor. It's not unusual to use metaphors and symbols in lyrics, especially when it comes to describing a feeling, or when the usual words fall short, which often seems to be the case. And many words or expressions we are used to are actually metaphors allready, like 'heartbroken', or 'uptight' or if you will, 'hot ass'. My hunch is, when the metaphor expresses a feeling, or in a hyperbolic way (like 'gun to my head') it's SF and when it's meant to describe a situation (to picture the big picture, so to speak), it can be NF. Usually metaphors are meant to explain something more complex in a simple way or a few words (like 'achilles heel'), and if it makes no sense, then either you don't get it (yet), or it's just a lousy methaphor. And even without too many metaphors it can be NF.
> 
> So I'd say Ian Curtis is SF. And Kurt Cobain as well. And I think most mentioned are. Besides, I truly wonder if someone who killed himself not long after becoming a father can be called an idealist or someone looking at the 'big picture' and how things are interrelated. Although there is a relation between idealism and cynicism.


Of course it depends on the metaphor. Most songs, poems, stories, etc, contain some metaphor, and not all the authors are Ns.

I made a long list of ISFP music artists somewhere else (or maybe another post in this thread....I can't remember). Most of these songwriters use metaphor too, but the lists highlight the general style differences, IMO. If I can dig it up, then maybe I will. I think the comparison will speak more clearly than anything I can say.

All Fi-dom will probably use metaphor for feelings & emotions, true (& this is about ISFPs & INFPs, not NFs & SFs, so the difference here is Ne & Se; Fi commonalities will abound). The difference is when metaphor is used for describing something external that is not about the self. Almost all INFP imagery will be metaphorical, but not necessarily about their feelings. The sensory descriptions are rarely meant literally. When it's not a metaphor for feeling, ISFP imagery is often much more literal; they build a sensory atmosphere that communicates the idea. It's more of an illustration than a metaphor, really. You could call it a metaphor in a way, but I'd say there's less connecting of ideas to express something than creating an experience to express something. PJ Harvey is an ISFP lyricist who is a great example of this. Karen O, an ISFP, uses a lot of very random sounding metaphor, but it's as if the focus is on the sound & feeling of the words over an actual connecting of two unrelated ideas to explain a bigger theme. The theme is in the experience created (the impression the sound & feel of the words leave), not in the lyrics on their own. In a good way, this often seems less contrived; INFPs can become strained in pushing for a theme in their lyrics.

I disagree with you on Curtis (and your lyrical example sounds like someone who finds a focus on sensory info overwhelming but also enlightening in its foreignness, not one who finds it comfortable in a "prefer this kind of info" way.). Cobain is debatable, but I'd need a better argument than the one offered (especially considering stats show INFPs the most likely type to be suicidal).


----------



## cardinalfire

I'm actually thrilled that this simple little question I asked ages ago has generated a thread that still gets people coming back to it.


----------



## mimesis

OrangeAppled said:


> All Fi-dom will probably use metaphor for feelings & emotions, true (& this is about ISFPs & INFPs, not NFs & SFs, so the difference here is Ne & Se; Fi commonalities will abound). The difference is when metaphor is used for describing something external that is not about the self. Almost all INFP imagery will be metaphorical, but not necessarily about their feelings. The sensory descriptions are rarely meant literally. When it's not a metaphor for feeling, ISFP imagery is often much more literal; they build a sensory atmosphere that communicates the idea. It's more of an illustration than a metaphor, really. You could call it a metaphor in a way, but I'd say there's less connecting of ideas to express something than creating an experience to express something. PJ Harvey is an ISFP lyricist who is a great example of this. Karen O, an ISFP, uses a lot of very random sounding metaphor, but it's as if the focus is on the sound & feeling of the words over an actual connecting of two unrelated ideas to explain a bigger theme. The theme is in the experience created (the impression the sound & feel of the words leave), not in the lyrics on their own. In a good way, this often seems less contrived; INFPs can become strained in pushing for a theme in their lyrics.
> 
> I disagree with you on Curtis (and your lyrical example sounds like someone who finds a focus on sensory info overwhelming but also enlightening in its foreignness, not one who finds it comfortable in a "prefer this kind of info" way.). Cobain is debatable, but I'd need a better argument than the one offered (especially considering stats show INFPs the most likely type to be suicidal).


First of all, I feel I need to explain, that my reply to you was actually a reaction to different posts from different people I had read before deciding to reply. Perhaps it was better to just reply to the starter, but I decided to reply you. Actually because a lot you said I could relate to, but it didn't quite come over that way, I know. My bad. 

I think that NF and SF matters, purely from a cognitive perspective. It is the way of processing information. Not how skilled or how creative you are at it. Not even wat is beautiful or good and what is not. And I agree that INFP can be dark or morbid. But it's the same way for ISFP or any type. For instance, a computervirus is also man-made. Probably by a NT. 

But to come back to Curtis and Cobain. You certainly have a point, about estethics. But you need to take into consideration the extaordinairy levels of stress they felt under. Or how people have coped with early childhood traumas. Curtis had severe epileptic attacks, sometimes when performing on stage or just before, Kurt Cobain had serious stomach problems, even falling in love could make him vomit, where other people would feel kinda funny in their tummy. 

Perhaps you should listen to Joy Division, Disorder live in Paris on Youtube if you haven't heard it. Pretty intense. If I was allowed to, I would have embedded the clip for you.


----------



## mimesis

OrangeAppled said:


> The difference is when metaphor is used for describing something external that is not about the self. Almost all INFP imagery will be metaphorical, but not necessarily about their feelings. The sensory descriptions are rarely meant literally. When it's not a metaphor for feeling, ISFP imagery is often much more literal; they build a sensory atmosphere that communicates the idea. It's more of an illustration than a metaphor, really. You could call it a metaphor in a way, but I'd say there's less connecting of ideas to express something than creating an experience to express something.


Funny how you can agree so much with eachother but still come to another conclusion...

"Whilst performing for Joy Division, Curtis became known for his quiet and awkward demeanour, as well as a unique dancing style reminiscent of the epileptic seizures he experienced, sometimes even on stage.[5] There were several incidents where he collapsed and had to be helped off stage.[6] In an interview for Northern Lights cassette magazine in November 1979 Ian Curtis made his only public comment on his dancing and performance. He explained the dance as a type of sign language with which to further express a song's emotional and lyrical content: "Instead of just singing about something you could show it as well, put it over in the way that it is, if you were totally involved in what you were doing".


----------



## mimesis

cardinalfire said:


> I'm actually thrilled that this simple little question I asked ages ago has generated a thread that still gets people coming back to it.


It's fun.  But I think in part because they have a lot in common, but can also be completely different.


----------



## sitodocambia

True, but I guess for an ISFP the focus is more on the senses and not on the metaphor itself. The metaphor is used to assist in creating the image instead of a few images/memories being the inspiration for a metaphor. That line seems to me to be more of a metaphor that helps one see the literal meaning of what she said. I think she was insinuating a very specific interpretation with that particular metaphor.

I may have just picked a bad example though.


----------



## Arrow

Walking as a shadow he forgot he had his own
Got fenced into the weeds
I tell you your too stubborn, tell the world that you come back
Your searching miles for your feet, some times it’s hard you just can’t believe
Back home we were caught up in our dreams
I just spin around, spinning around 
Sometimes he just jumps before it’s safe to land
He’s a boomerang, and you my dear friend when your country stops…
It takes another angle 
The person can’t hold you down
Your boomerang

I have a feeling that my musician friend is a Fi dom or Fi aux user, would you guys say his style is more Se or Ne?


----------



## sarahbelle68

OrangeAppled said:


> Robert Smith of the Cure is a good prototype for the INFP song-writer, IMO.
> 
> INFPs will likely use a lot of metaphor, symbolism, may reference literature/poetry they love, usually have some idealistic views coming through the lyrics, may enjoy dark/morbid imagery & tragic themes, display a sense of romanticism, & have a natural rhythm in phrasing words. They may be less technically adept at their instrument than an ISFP (not always), but may also be more innovative.
> 
> Another poster once said that ISFP music is like honey and INFP music like broken glass . That doesn't mean INFP music is unpleasant, but I have noticed a tendency for "chaos", even when it's melodic and beautiful music. There's less need to make "sense" or follow a set structure in composing a song.
> 
> Other INFP song-writers (or likely INFP):
> Martin Gore (Depeche Mode)
> Kurt Cobain
> William Reid (Jesus & Mary Chain)
> Cat Power
> Fiona Apple
> Ian Curtis (Joy Division)
> Paul Banks (Interpol...maybe INTP though)
> 
> Some more from a list made somewhere else:
> beck
> conor oberst
> elliot smith
> joanna newsom
> kate bush
> nick drake
> van morrison
> stephen malkmus
> jerry garcia
> charlie parker
> kevin shields
> sarah mclachlan
> james taylor
> jeff tweedy
> gary numan


malkmus is a total INTP to me


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## Inveniet

INFPs are hoping against hope to change the world with their songs.
ISFPs are mostly oblivious to the impact their song is having on a macro scale,
unless everyone and their cat comes to ask for an opinion.

Bob Dylan (ISFP)





Curt Cobain (INFP)


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## nO_d3N1AL

Can someone please tell me if Ellie Goulding is INFP or ISFP?

Sent from my RM-846_eu_euro1_291 using Tapatalk


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## EonsInTheNight

I'm finally able to see Bob Dylan as an ISFP, and with this I've also seen the main difference. 

ISFP's lyrics can be very metaphorical and imaginative, but they're ultimately concrete, in the sense that they create scenes with their lyrics. Take for example Bob Dylan, Tom Waits and Nick Cave. They are story tellers: you have imagery, characters and conversations in their lyrics. I think it could be the case with ISFP who have strong Ni, that they combine imagery from different sources to create what appears to be so far from reality that they seem surreal, and thus appear intuitive -ISFP are the most intuitive of the sensors should be remembered. But again, you can see they lyrics. Bob Dylan wasn't much as an idealist as a painter of his period and the changes in it. 
So, this is the first category of ISFPs, the story-tellers, who create mythologies, the ones who are as much painters as they are musicians.
Also someone like Ozzy Osbourne and quite allot of metal-heads fall in this category. "Iron Man" is an entire story in the lyrics of a one song for example.

Also, ISFPs can strip away the metaphors completely and make song about their real-life events, which is too personal for an INFP.
Not all ISFPs are story-tellers. Some are about their Fi clashing with the outside values, like many INFPs lyrics. They can also have metaphors but the song is pretty much about a certain topic. 

INFPs lyricists like Thom Yorke or Kurt Cobain on the other hand are not that "concrete". In the sense that they can have imagery in their lyrics but they're quite poor compared to ISFP, and the images are not interconnected to form entire scenes. 
When it comes to their Fi clashing with the outside world, the lyrics are much more ambiguous and open to interpretation.
In a way, INFPs lyrics are almost stream-of-conciousness compared to other types.
Now, there are some exceptions, as an INFP can try to write songs inspired by ISFP lyrics writing -Nirvana's "Polly" for ex. is a story, but overall they will drift from the more strict forms of the ISFP.
Also, Nick Drake is INFP based on this.


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## EonsInTheNight

Another thing I just thought about, ISFP use poetic language to enrich the lyrics, to add to it; INFP use poetic language to get to the essential. Their music tend to have fewer lyrics for this reason.


----------



## Inveniet

nO_d3N1AL said:


> Can someone please tell me if Ellie Goulding is INFP or ISFP?
> 
> Sent from my RM-846_eu_euro1_291 using Tapatalk


I would go with the ISFP on her.
I get a very strong Se vibe from her.


----------



## Innogen

I've written numerous songs for school projects in the past, and when it came to lyrics, my main priority was the "flow" of words. Too many syllables in the line? Does it sound awkward? Does it roll off the tongue really easily and have a nice ring to it? Is the combination of vowels and consonants pleasing to the ears?
When it came to the meaning of the lyrics, my songs usually told stories. "One day a neutron ran into a nucleus" was the first line of a silly acappella song I made for Chemistry. As said two or three posts above, I create scenes in my lyrics.
I also loved to experiment with weird harmonies and unusual time signatures like 7/8 and 5/4.


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## owlboy

.... Has anyone pointed out yet that INFPs are *auxiliary *Ne and ISFPs are *tertiary* Ni? It's not like they're thousands of miles apart in their levels of intuition. I think the people focusing on ISFP's ''concreteness'' and INFPs ''ability to use metaphor'' aren't quite taking that into account.

Typology is not about specific skill, because any skill can be developed with enough commitment and practice. It's about what motivates you, your driving force. The fact that certain types are generally good at specific things is a byproduct of their functions, not intrinsic to them.

ISFPs are compelled to experience their immediate, physical environment and new possibilities for sensory experience, through the subjective lense of Fi. An ISFP artist can dress that up in any number of ways, including metaphor. Don't look at the fact that someone is using metaphor, but the core of the metaphor itself, _what_ the artist is trying to say and _why_.

It is easier to type musicians from what they say about their own work rather than the work itself, because they lay out their own motivations when they do so. So if you want to type a lyricist accurately, look at what they say about their creative process rather than just the product of it.

Edit// See Janelle Monae for a great example of an ISFP songwriter. She's more than capable of using metaphor and abstraction [all her albums are concept albums I believe] but the core of her songs is pretty much always the same: Personal freedom and autonomy [Fi] through physical expression [Se]

''But I really, really wanna thank you
For dancing 'til the end
You found a way to break out
You're not afraid to break out''

''Hey sister am I good enough for your heaven?
Say will your God accept me in my black and white?
Will he approve the way I'm made?
Or should I reprogram the program and get down?''



One particular trait of Ne songwriters that I've noticed is not so much in the lyrics but the music itself. They have an amazing ability to jam several disparate genres into one song and make it sound cohesive. See for example Freddie Mercury weaving gospel, rock, and opera into one song, or Matt Bellamy fusing _dubstep and flamenco guitar_ of all things. It's that Ne thing of weaving multiple contexts into one whole. I'm not sure if any other type does this, it seems particularly Ne.


----------



## Robin Salario

I am an ISFP and I love Trent Reznor, because if I listen to his music he leaves me with a great feeling of peace and silence in my head. He is so honest about his feelings, but you hear his kind soul through his lyrics and music, even if he is angry . You are right that his lyrics are always in the present, and he uses no metaphors, or sings about what he is going to do in the future, or about what he did in the past. He is just here, and the next moment he is somewhere else and new. Thank you for this post.


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## mushr00m

Not really about lyrics as such. This is actually a really interesting thing to think about, I do notice some differences between the two in their aesthetic and that is difficult to put into words, it might be better illustrated with examples. I think Se is more vivid and Ne is more lucid. Ne keeps pushing for the journey of the song, whereas Se wants to amplify the existing stimuli. They are both very experimental and are both authentic to the source though because Fi. 

Here is some subjective examples that might illustrate the differences in vibes.

Ne





Se





I love both these tracks btw :kitteh:


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## hal0hal0

mushr00m said:


> Se
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I love both these tracks btw :kitteh:


I can't watch this one :crying:. Stupid youtube copyright claims. 

I don't know about music and lyrics, because I tend to be drawn more to visuals, but Ne I generally see as more expansive and diffused in its concrete form (i.e., less "focused" on the present reality). Michael Parkes' paintings seem Ne-heavy to me:


























I almost want to say visually, at least, that Ne is prone to collages, perhaps drawing from the less conscious images of tertiary Si, memories, whether real or imagined, whereas Se is more prone to heightening the as-is experience before itself, crystallizing and actualizing it into as "photographic" a reality as possible (whether or not that reality is "real" or not). I generally see Jason Chan as more a Se-centric artist...


























I also tend to see high-contrast, "hyper-real" photos like these as more Se:


























































And... I don't think Se purely operates by the reality principle (i.e., it's not necessarily about snowboarding, extreme sports and gritty realism), but I think it will tend to actualize and heighten its fantasies fairly strongly... flesh out every minute blemish and detail of its Muse's face, every freckle, etc., until its fantasy becomes reality. Whereas Ne I think is more prone to having an "out" insofar as jumping to a newer and newer possibility.

This is tricky, however, since Se "jumps" from experience to experience.

Moreover, the Beebe model does suggest that the Puer function (tertiary) can "inflate" itself, as if puffing itself to the status of the dominant function-attitude. This would make sense as the loop, when the individual shuns its Parent role (auxiliary) and "leans" on the dominant attitude (in this case, introversion).


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## mushr00m

hal0hal0 said:


> I can't watch this one :crying:. Stupid youtube copyright claims.
> 
> I don't know about music and lyrics, because I tend to be drawn more to visuals, but Ne I generally see as more expansive and diffused in its concrete form (i.e., less "focused" on the present reality). Michael Parkes' paintings seem Ne-heavy to me:
> 
> I almost want to say visually, at least, that Ne is prone to collages, perhaps drawing from the less conscious images of tertiary Si, memories, whether real or imagined, whereas Se is more prone to heightening the as-is experience before itself, crystallizing and actualizing it into as "photographic" a reality as possible (whether or not that reality is "real" or not). I generally see Jason Chan as more a Se-centric artist..


I've become a bit rusty at this stuff, bear with me :tongue:
You explained it really well and glad you 'get it'. I don't think I could put it as succinctly. Ne sometimes kind of strikes me as bending reality, I used to think that anyway and prefer the way the term you use - collages of reality, like finding bits of concrete data and manipulating them but not all the time… Se/Ni in one instance just seems so much more graphic, the photos you posted definitely confirm this, all the way to the tiniest detail, crack, wrinkle. Some images seem crisper and others I notice with a more smokey atmosphere but the idea is perfectly encapsulated. It's like though, there is some complimentary relationship between the aux and tert function, sometimes they don't connect and I think that might be where the creative process is still taking form internally. I often hear how the two are conflicted with each other but that almost seems arbitrary and that if you can amalgamate the two, it can make the results fuller if you like. I dunno. Your example though about Se heightening the as is experience makes a lot of sense.

Gonna steal your collage concept as its a really applicable medium of depicting themes that I tend to like a lot. 









And I just had the thought though that Ne is an unruly function :laughing: Like a crazy kid throwing buckets of paint everywhere, lol! I must say though in all honestly, I just find the way Si is depicted to be very bland, when Ne dominates, it's as if everything has been given an injection of colour, definition of shape, perspective etc. But an Si dom may well find Ne too garish. It's not that I like everything to be excessively colourful because subtle hues just using black and white tones can be profoundly dramatic and provocative, the simplicity can be more, like these, really captivating, thanks for posting them:


























The bottom one is different to the rest and I wander what function that appeals to, it kinda illustrates the point I was saying earlier about the shifting between two perceptions until they amalgamate/juxtaposed. 

Hopefully you can listen to it this time, I think the artist has been typed ISFP. She has other tracks that have a political bent to them and think her upbringing shaped some of these views from her time in Sri Lanka. Her word play is pretty interesting, she can put words together in such a unique form. 








> I also tend to see high-contrast, "hyper-real" photos like these as more Se:






> nd... I don't think Se purely operates by the reality principle (i.e., it's not necessarily about snowboarding, extreme sports and gritty realism), but I think it will tend to actualize and heighten its fantasies fairly strongly... flesh out every minute blemish and detail of its Muse's face, every freckle, etc., until its fantasy becomes reality. Whereas Ne I think is more prone to having an "out" insofar as jumping to a newer and newer possibility.
> 
> This is tricky, however, since Se "jumps" from experience to experience.



Good description!  I think Ne does want to bring ideas to reality but not in quite the same need to illustrate all the finer details and it wouldn't because it is bringing forth internally stored data to the forefront, maybe this data gets distorted to one's own choosing or it gets distorted because Si isn't the strongest function Like fragments of reality, choosing the most valued and discarding what isn't needed. It's like when I go out, I take special notice of a speck of light or not the thing itself but the silhouette. 

Maybe like a thread could be dedicated to the art and music of Se/Ni and Ne/Si… Mmm.


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## Monsieur Melancholy

sitodocambia said:


> Brandon Flowers (lead singer of the Killers) is most likely an INFP. I think for most INFPs the meaning of the song is more important than the image, if that makes sense. So, songs written by an INFP will be more abstract, less concrete, and any imagery will be less vivid. For ISFPs (like Lady Gaga who is NOT an INFP), the reverse is true. You can notice this in lyrics such as "I wanna stand up. I wanna let go. You know you know no you don't you don't," (All These Things I've Done by the Killers) which is more abstract and difficult to decipher as opposed to lyrics like "I wanna hold 'em like they do in Texas, please. Fold 'em, let 'em hit me, raise it baby stay with me," (Poker Face by Lady Gaga), which is much more concrete and has a much more obvious, literal meaning. Also, the former uses wild abstractions from specific details (Ne-Si), while the latter uses imaginative metaphors backed by imagery (Se-Ni).


This is some fascinating insight and I agree with most of what you said, but I think I'll disagree and say that Brandon Flowers is an ISFP. I'll back this up by saying that in recent years The Killers' lyrics have become way more concrete than their early stuff. The album _Battle Born_ in particular is full of pretty concrete imagery and storytelling tied in with a lot of emotional ambience. I think as Brandon has matured as a songwriter, he has evolved into more of a sensor than an intuitive. You listen to his two solo albums _Flamingo _and _The Desired Effect _and you see a similar pattern. Rich with metaphor yes but when it comes to a lot of his romantic storytelling, he has the soul of a sensor I think.


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