# Why does everyone pick on the xSTJs?



## Coburn

@monemi the more I look at my French mistake, the more hilariously bad it is. I'm so glad you pointed it out.


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## monemi

Dumaresq said:


> @_monemi_ the more I look at my French mistake, the more hilariously bad it is. I'm so glad you pointed it out.


You must've been pretty tired. :laughing:


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## Epicyclic

I’m pretty sure this thread can go on for pretty long, since there’s many many, things. Besides, niss hasn’t arrived on the scene yet. 
I’m a ISTJ, but after years of having to work with N types, I have seen some of the better things of both sides and am trying to incorporate both. 

Some of the points are genuine shortcomings of SJs, but some are aimed at NTs, some at NFs. SPs I’m not so sure where they fit into these points.


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## rawrmosher

Mollusk said:


> I could be wrong but in my experience many intuitives assume someone is ESFJ, ISTJ or ESTJ if they don't like them.
> This is especially the case with INTP, INFP and INTJ.
> 
> There is so much mis-typing on the forums. People assume that if someone is in a managerial role and they are hard to get along with they must be ESTJ! Same goes for difficult parents...they always end up ESTJ. Statistically it's not possible. And IRL ESTJs are well liked. Also to someone who is not very well versed on cognitive function ESTJ can look a lot like ENTJ....the two can be tricky to tell apart. The hate is misdirected.


it's especially funny because INFP and real ESTJ's can get on well in real life :L


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## Epicyclic

I’m pretty sure this thread can go on for pretty long, since there’s many many, things. Besides, niss hasn’t arrived on the scene yet. 

I’m a ISTJ, but after years of having to work with N types, I have seen some of the better things of both sides and am trying to incorporate both. 

Some of the points are genuine shortcomings of STJs, but some are aimed at NTs, some at NFs. SPs I’m not so sure where they fit into these points. 


Specific traits of the xSTJ. Like all traits, they can be bad if excessive. 

AFAIK I haven’t seen any NF face the facts and talk about the weaknesses of their types in detail. 

*1.	STJs look at hard facts. And we see them matter of factly. *

We don’t like stuff that doesn’t seem realistic or agree with the facts, no matter how glowing the theory or marketing seems to us. Plus, we STJs are quite tight with money and resources usually. 

Take this example: IKEAs call their catalog a bookbook, take a dig at Apple and make all that glowing comparisons, we just see – a freaking paper magazine and a waste of paper. No surprise that marketers hate us. 

These facts usually are regarded as “mere details”. This is why idealists hate us. 

People don’t like to hear about them UNTIL something goes wrong. By then, its too late. 

*2.	SJs prioritise survival and efficiency, rather than possibilities. *

The possibilities we see are threats: what can go wrong and what is the worst possible outcome, rather than optimistic stuff. 

Since nothing in nature is perfect, to assume nothing will go wrong is idealistic and dangerous. To quote Admiral Rickover, father of the US nuclear navy and hardcore ISTJ, “Optimism and stupidity are nearly synonymous.” 

Another reason why idealists hate us. 
*
3.	We set high standards on ourselves, and also those around us. We’re not afraid of hard work, and to check facts. *

We are prepared to put in the hard work. Just ask jcal. And we don’t tolerate laziness or worse, the sort who talk a lot and don’t get things done. Another reason for idealists to hate us. 

*4.	STJ types care more for LOGIC than FEELINGs. *

Fs, especially NFs hate us for that. 

It also means SJs are more willing to get into conflict if we see the need to get something done. This is good for some things, but the weakness is that it could well mean sacrificing the long term for the short term. You need to draw a balance line somewhere.


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## Epicyclic

5, 6, 7 are general weaknesses of xSTJs resulting from 1 to 4. 

*5.	STJs tend to believe a bit more in themselves being right, because they consider facts. *

Overconfidence in one’s own judgement is dangerous, especially if the assumptions and facts behind the judgement are wrong. There are plenty of times when there is insufficient information or when the situation changes and facts and assumptions get outdated. 

Plus, nobody likes being told that they are wrong, especially if there is a barrage of facts to prove it. 

*6.	Tendency to be controlling and/or criticising. *

Because we know that without us, things fall apart. People tend to be lazy, irresponsible, etc. 
Trouble is, nobody likes to be controlled or criticised. I’ve learned to avoid doing both if there’s no need to. 

*7.	STJs tend to be associated with rules and details, which can sometimes take the expense of the big picture. Plus, nobody likes to follow rules. *

Based on the assumption, some of the hate is justified: some rules don’t make sense, or were conceived by people out of touch with the ground. NT hate is based on this, but again note the assumption. 

However, a lot of it is simply because it takes effort to follow rules. Refer to Dumresq’s post. 

Good SJs train themselves not just to follow the letter of the law, but to question the principles which the rule is based on. 

*8.	Forums tend to be populated with non SJ types. *

SJs are usually busy getting shit done. Even me, I’m working like mad. Those that are here usually are here to learn about how people think differently and to deal with it. 
You guys have covered this one to death already……


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## Mammon

monemi said:


> I've worked for days at a time. I don't want to let down people I value. They're counting on me. I'll do whatever needs to be done to come through for them.


This I understand and agree with. We are nothing and no one without those closest to us.
Without people that I really care about(and visa versa), I'd be overcome with apathy and purposelessness.



jcal said:


> I'm not nuts... just doing what I expect of myself: Taking care of my responsibilities. I normally work 45-50 hours a week, which is fine for me and hardly extreme. However, if an extraordinary situation arises, I have no problem stepping up and doing what needs to be done. As monemi mentioned, I don't ever want to be the one to let the team down. On the other hand, I essentially never work on weekends... that's part of fulfilling my commitments to my family.


Sorry, didn't intend to offend ^^ I meant the nuts part as a joke, and it was kind of like 'Wow...'


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## jcal

Merihim said:


> Sorry, didn't intend to offend ^^ I meant the nuts part as a joke, and it was kind of like 'Wow...'


No offense taken... I understood what you meant.


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## sriracha

Mikey Coleman said:


> ISTJ are one of the more confusing groups to deal with. Unlike their cousin ISTP, ISTJ seem to forget that they are as much a part of the system as the rest of us. I think ISTJ forget sometimes that they need to just step back and view their situations from a third party's eyes. ISTJ typically are not very comfortable with removing themselves from a bias.
> It is not just ISTJ that suffer from this flaw. We all do at some point. ISTJ just tend to be the ones that I spot neglecting the third party perspective the most.


Can you explain more about this? I'm curious to know as what you mean. Be as honest and blunt. Give some examples if you can think of any. It may or may not be related to the topic of this thread. I personally think that I have difficulty in connecting to most people; The reason may be because I have no interest in people at all! So I have trouble seeing other people's points of views.

I admire the traits of an ESFP, especially the qualities of being a team player and treating every person they meet like an equal, regardless of their background and status.


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## Mikey Coleman

rawr_sheila said:


> Can you explain more about this? I'm curious to know as what you mean. Be as honest and blunt. Give some examples if you can think of any. It may or may not be related to the topic of this thread. I personally think that I have difficulty in connecting to most people; The reason may be because I have no interest in people at all! So I have trouble seeing other people's points of views.
> 
> I admire the traits of an ESFP, especially the qualities of being a team player and treating every person they meet like an equal, regardless of their background and status.


ISTJ typically don't like to meet knew people. I find it difficult to understand it. They act as if they don't want to meet people, yet they constantly put themselves in social situations. I have not noticed ISTJ to be loners. Some ISTJ are very successful socially because they allow themselves to be part of the group. I think ISTJ just don't like to be told what to. They go as far as to separate themselves from the world. 
Gotta love ISTJ, though. They are the only group of people that will fix a car engine while it drives down the freeway.


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## niss

Epicyclic said:


> I’m pretty sure this thread can go on for pretty long, since there’s many many, things. Besides, niss hasn’t arrived on the scene yet.


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## HealerMD

I wish to summate a bit: as an INFP (and I find myself sure to be that type) I've found great joy in understanding the viewpoint of my polar opposite (essentially) countertypes, E/ISTJ. I know that what makes you a pain in the ass is a product of "the dose makes the poison" and to learn what makes you awesome is good for me (therapeutic), albeit I can never be quite as elegant at it with effort as you are when you are exhausted, hungry, thirsty and sick. So it is with natural talent, but there is no rule that one cannot benefit from getting better at what is not their natural inclination. . I know that what we (deep feelies) have to offer is not apparently of much practical value, though being here you likely recognize the immense value of properly used emotions at which we rather excel (though we often improperly misuse them in a manipulative fashion - our pitfall). So it is nice to see that we benefit mutually not simply from getting along (which is a very inert way of relating) but in fact picking up tricks of the other's trade we can actually use to better our lives (preferably for good of others as well, hey?).


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## Miss Nightingale

Most of the people replying against xSTJs.....I noticed that you guys, instead of bringing up your difficulties with the Si and Te functions (which you should be doing if you really do think that you don't get along with them), are simplifying the problem by thinking: "Oh, this person is annoying, closed-minded, so he/she must be an XSTJ!". You guys are heavily relying on the stereotypes to justify your complaints.

It's the other way around.


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## malachi.holden.3

Don't forget that INTJs and ISTJs have tertiary Fi. While we may seem stony and non-emotional on the outside, we actually have some rather deep feelings.


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## malachi.holden.3

I had a friend say that no matter how much people may dislike the xSTJs, without them the toilets wouldn't get clean.

Do you find this offensive, or is it true?

Or both?


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## jcal

malachi.holden.3 said:


> I had a friend say that no matter how much people may dislike the xSTJs, without them the toilets wouldn't get clean.
> 
> Do you find this offensive, or is it true?
> 
> Or both?


Well, considering that I'm rather well paid to use my brain as an electrical engineer... yet, if cleaning the toilet was what was required to complete the job, I would have no problem doing it and doing it well... I would say it's true. Too many friggin' prima donnas wouldn't, and they're the ones that I find to be offensive. They should just STFU and do their part without worrying about whether something is beneath them.


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## Coburn

malachi.holden.3 said:


> I had a friend say that no matter how much people may dislike the xSTJs, without them the toilets wouldn't get clean.
> 
> Do you find this offensive, or is it true?
> 
> Or both?


Of course the toilets will be cleaned. But who says we're the ones cleaning them?

Gotta make those INFPs good for something... >




(but seriously, I don't mind cleaning toilets. it's folding clothes that makes me want to tear my hair out.)


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## HealerMD

Toilet cleaning is honest work. Gives the room a fresh feel and symbolic of a well cared home where a soul can breathe and thrive. INFP congruent. Making someone good for something - INFP incongruent and rather disrespectful. People are not utilities.


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## niss

HealerMD said:


> I wish to summate a bit: as an INFP (and I find myself sure to be that type) I've found great joy in understanding the viewpoint of my polar opposite (essentially) countertypes, E/ISTJ. I know that what makes you a pain in the ass is a product of "the dose makes the poison" and to learn what makes you awesome is good for me (therapeutic), albeit I can never be quite as elegant at it with effort as you are when you are exhausted, hungry, thirsty and sick. So it is with natural talent, but there is no rule that one cannot benefit from getting better at what is not their natural inclination. . I know that what we (deep feelies) have to offer is not apparently of much practical value, though being here you likely recognize the immense value of properly used emotions at which we rather excel (though we often improperly misuse them in a manipulative fashion - our pitfall). So it is nice to see that we benefit mutually not simply from getting along (which is a very inert way of relating) but in fact picking up tricks of the other's trade we can actually use to better our lives (preferably for good of others as well, hey?).


That is hardly a summary. Here you go:

Interacting with those different from ourselves can be difficult, but the result is that we are better for having these experiences, as long as we have learned something from each other.


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## HealerMD

I sit corrected.


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## niss

brittany0979 said:


> Most of the people replying against xSTJs.....I noticed that you guys, instead of bringing up your difficulties with the Si and Te functions (which you should be doing if you really do think that you don't get along with them), are simplifying the problem by thinking: "Oh, this person is annoying, closed-minded, so he/she must be an XSTJ!". You guys are heavily relying on the stereotypes to justify your complaints.
> 
> It's the other way around.


Shhhh...

Don't spoil the party. They're reveling in their angst.


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## niss

malachi.holden.3 said:


> I had a friend say that no matter how much people may dislike the xSTJs, without them the toilets wouldn't get clean.
> 
> Do you find this offensive, or is it true?
> 
> Or both?


It has been said that what we say about another person, or group of people, reflects more about us than it does about them. I think this applies to your friend, in this instance.


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## niss

Dumaresq said:


> Of course the toilets will be cleaned. But who says we're the ones cleaning them?
> 
> Gotta make those INFPs good for something... >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (but seriously, I don't mind cleaning toilets. it's folding clothes that makes me want to tear my hair out.)


I *HATE* doing laundry.


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## jcal

niss said:


> I *HATE* doing laundry.


So do I... but yet... I still do it.


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## niss

jcal said:


> Well, considering that I'm rather well paid to use my brain as an electrical engineer... yet, if cleaning the toilet was what was required to complete the job, I would have no problem doing it and doing it well... I would say it's true. Too many friggin' prima donnas wouldn't, and they're the ones that I find to be offensive. They should just STFU and do their part without worrying whether something is beneath them.


As an employer, I look for people that do their current tasks well; people that take ownership of the task and pride in what they have provided for others. If cleaning toilets is done in a non-caring manner, there is no way that I will promote you to a position of more responsibility. If I do, then you are certain to some day find that new responsibility is now beneath you, and you will begin to handle it irresponsibly, potentially causing me, my business, and others much harm.

Conscientiousness is an interesting thing. If you lack it, you will likely never have it without great effort. If you have it, the world is your oyster.


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## niss

jcal said:


> So do I... but yet... I still do it.


In our house, everyone does their own laundry and we all pitch in with communal items, such as bath towels. I do it, mainly because I'm too cheap to pay someone to do it.


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## HealerMD

niss said:


> As an employer, I look for people that do their current tasks well; people that take ownership of the task and pride in what they have provided for others. If cleaning toilets is done in a non-caring manner, there is no way that I will promote you to a position of more responsibility. If I do, then you are certain to some day find that new responsibility is now beneath you, and you will begin to handle it irresponsibly, potentially causing me, my business, and others much harm.
> 
> Conscientiousness is an interesting thing. If you lack it, you will likely never have it without great effort. If you have it, the world is your oyster.


Heart Felt Truth!


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## jcal

niss said:


> In our house, everyone does their own laundry and we all pitch in with communal items, such as bath towels. I do it, mainly because I'm too cheap to pay someone to do it.


Same here... we all do our own.


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## Max

emberfly said:


> Te annoys a lot of people. It can be seen as harsh or demanding. Or hard to please.
> 
> *ESTJs are Te doms.
> 
> I think strong Si annoys people, too. Rules, order, strong skepticism of anything that is "new" -> like new ideas or new technology or new laws, new policies . . . *
> 
> And of course ESTJs have auxiliary Si.
> 
> (reverse for ISTJ)
> 
> *They can be sticklers. Which can be so annoying. Especially when they are your boss or teacher or principal or commanding officer or FATHER or whatever
> *
> 
> (^or mother, of course)


I think a lot of the older, traditional Dads fall into the xSTJ archetype. I'm positive mine does.


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## HealerMD

much parenting seems to require kindly and gentle ESTJness. For me it takes much effort but I think it's worth it.


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## niss

Wontlookdown said:


> I think a lot of the older, traditional Dads fall into the xSTJ archetype. I'm positive mine does.


Change that to:



> I think a lot of parents fall into the xSTJ stereotypical archetype, regarding behavior.


...and you are onto something. It is in the job description of parents to behave in certain ways, and many of these ways are stereotypically xSTJish. I've known many kids that were sure their parents were xSTJ, but in reality, their parent was anything but an xSTJ. It was just in their dealings with their child (which is what their child was judging them on) that they behaved in this manner.


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## Max

niss said:


> Change that to:
> 
> 
> 
> ...and you are onto something. It is in the job description of parents to behave in certain ways, and many of these ways are stereotypically xSTJish. I've known many kids that were sure their parents were xSTJ, but in reality, their parent was anything but an xSTJ. It was just in their dealings with their child (which is what their child was judging them on) that they behaved in this manner.


Yeah, my Dad definitely acts stereotypically xSTJish and I am also positive that his top two functions are S and T dominated. He's not very feeling orientated or intuitive. He does have morals, but he favors logic. My Mother on the other hand, is laid back. She's an xSFx (I'm certain). She's good at supplying people's needs and emotional stuff. They do clash a lot. It must be a sensory thing, if that makes sense?


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## HealerMD

Hmm.. That is brilliant. Two sensors at odds with each other, may not be comfortable running away into their imagination to avoid conflict making conflict inevitable. Also, two intuitives may leave many things unresolved as they are both escaping reality while real problems grow bigger. Good stuff!


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## Coburn

HealerMD said:


> Hmm.. That is brilliant. Two sensors at odds with each other, may not be comfortable running away into their imagination to avoid conflict making conflict inevitable. Also, two intuitives may leave many things unresolved as they are both escaping reality while real problems grow bigger. Good stuff!


Potato!


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## jamaix

HealerMD said:


> The are so logical they perhaps forget they are humans living and working with humans. In the battle of men (softie feelies) and machines (istj) any suggestions on how to best appeal to the STJ's repressed humanity given they are usually flawless in their cold heartless reasoning?


For me you summed it up pretty well. Now that I am older, I have learned how to soften my approach and responses somewhat. When I was younger, I often came across as quite insensitive(like a machine). More times than I care to admit, I have been told that I am painfully honest(very direct). I came to realize that it didn't always serve me well to be so blunt. I have worked on softening my approach, but sometimes I reflect back and realize that my response probably seemed harsh. I usually believe most things have a logical solution but approaching things in that matter can make others perceive you as insensitive and uncaring. I do care, I just don't understand the logic of crying or complaining about something when there is an obvious solution to the problem.

I can't speak for all ISTJ's, but the manner in which someone approaches me makes all the difference in the world. If I am approached by someone who is emotional(angry) and wants to get in my face and wag their finger at me, I don't respond well at all. I go on the defensive and I tune them out. If your approach is calm, reasonable and respectful (this is big for me) I will respectfully listen and carefully consider an opposing viewpoint. If you lay it out well and it makes sense to me, I have no problem going in a different direction.


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## tanstaafl28

Nope. Not a thing and not deserved. I'm tired of these whiny threads about one type getting unfairly treated over all the others. I've never seen it to be true. It's all perceived by one or two people who's confirmation bias is being overly sensitive and selective.


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## Vic

Isn't it said that the majority of people are xSTJ? Maybe that's been touched on.

You know how it is when people feel that they are not part of a perceived majority.


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## HealerMD

Addressing emotional upheaval with logic is like eating soup with a fork. Using emotionality when logical (albeit uncomfortable) solution is apparent, is like opening a tuna can with your teeth. We all benefit from learning each other's tools of trade. Love it here. I am an old and very functional feeler. I see right though feelie manipulative nonsense many STJ's hate with reasoned passion. I am guilty of more of that nonsense in my younger days and glad I do that much less. I do however still resent when emotional factors are made irrelevant by logic, algorithms and directives.


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## niss

tanstaafl28 said:


> Nope. Not a thing and not deserved. I'm tired of these whiny threads about one type getting unfairly treated over all the others. I've never seen it to be true. It's all perceived by one or two people who's confirmation bias is being overly sensitive and selective.


Surely you jest. A cursory glance through the forums would quickly prove that bias toward/against certain types is prevalent.


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## Coburn

niss said:


> Surely you jest. A cursory glance through the forums would quickly prove that bias toward/against certain types is prevalent.


You mean, "Surely, you joust."


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