# Gaining weight, not losing



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

So I have gained 2 kg as of today roughly since I began working out about a month ago and doing strength routine and while I am starting to see some muscle tone underneath all that fat of mine I am not sure I am noticing much of a difference in terms of actual fat on my body. I am making measly attempts in improving my diet but I have no idea how much I eat per day as I don't know how to calculate it lacking a scale and such. Should I be concerned? I realize that I may gain weight initially due to increase in mass but I was hoping to eventually start losing fat too, not just gaining muscle under the fat. 

So tips or whatever are welcome.


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## bluekitdon (Dec 19, 2012)

ephemereality said:


> So I have gained 2 kg as of today roughly since I began working out about a month ago and doing strength routine and while I am starting to see some muscle tone underneath all that fat of mine I am not sure I am noticing much of a difference in terms of actual fat on my body. I am making measly attempts in improving my diet but I have no idea how much I eat per day as I don't know how to calculate it lacking a scale and such. Should I be concerned? I realize that I may gain weight initially due to increase in mass but I was hoping to eventually start losing fat too, not just gaining muscle under the fat.
> 
> So tips or whatever are welcome.


Track your diet. I'd suggest Free Calorie Counter, Diet & Exercise Journal | MyFitnessPal.com, also has a free mobile app for android & iphone. Muscle weighs more than fat so if you increase your muscle mass you may also gain a little weight if you don't also watch your diet. Just the act of inputting it and having it in front of you can have a dramatic impact on your weight, it makes you conscious of what you're putting into your body. Often you can identify just one or two things to reduce portion sizes on or stop eating which will dramatically impact the total number of calories you are putting in each day. Don't forget to track drinks, sugary drinks like soda are a huge source of calories! 

Commonly what happens is that people start working out, and then they also start eating more because their bodies are consuming more calories and making them feel hungrier. Which of course means they don't lose weight even though they are becoming more physically fit. It's a pretty simple equation, to lose weight you have to consume fewer calories than you burn each day.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

bluekitdon said:


> Track your diet. I'd suggest Free Calorie Counter, Diet & Exercise Journal | MyFitnessPal.com, also has a free mobile app for android & iphone. Muscle weighs more than fat so if you increase your muscle mass you may also gain a little weight if you don't also watch your diet. Just the act of inputting it and having it in front of you can have a dramatic impact on your weight, it makes you conscious of what you're putting into your body. Often you can identify just one or two things to reduce portion sizes on or stop eating which will dramatically impact the total number of calories you are putting in each day. Don't forget to track drinks, sugary drinks like soda are a huge source of calories!


The problem is that the only thing I can cut down on are meal sizes. I dont' drink soda, eat candy etc. I am already using MyFitnessPal, but the problem is that I cook most of my food on my own so it's incredibly difficult to track the value of each portion I make. Let's take my chicken soup I did the other day for example. A bit of cream, chicken, curry, soy milk, water, spices etc. How do I know the value of that without measuring stuff very precisely which I can't due to a lack of a scale? 



> Commonly what happens is that people start working out, and then they also start eating more because their bodies are consuming more calories and making them feel hungrier.


I know I am eating more to match my new metabolism because it goes crazy when I do start being physically active but from what I can tell I don't seem to eat significantly more than before.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Just buy a scale then.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Red Panda said:


> Just buy a scale then.


Very financially strained, heh. I would rather have something I could do without buying one and spending time measuring stuff during my day.


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

IME, if you have been 'dormant' for a long time or dramatically change your work-out routine, you'll gain weight initially due to water retention in your muscles. 
In other words, if you see an initial weight increase it is likely not due to a weight gain in pure muscle mass. This weight increase will also mask any initial fat mass loss.

Make sure that you eat enough so that you don't screw up your metabolism, or you may actually shut down your ability to burn fat! 
Fat weight loss/gain takes ~2 weeks to show up after life-style change (even though it feels like my scale shows a 2 lb gain after a 3 oz chocolate bar... funny how that works) when not coupled with any changes in exercise habits.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Swede said:


> IME, if you have been 'dormant' for a long time


Uhm... let's say the past 10 years roughly lmao.



> or dramatically change your work-out routine, you'll gain weight initially due to water retention in your muscles.
> In other words, if you see an initial weight increase it is likely not due to a weight gain in pure muscle mass. This weight increase will also mask any initial fat mass loss.


Yeah fair, though I am also sure I've gained muscle mass because it's something I can visually see, after all. 



> Make sure that you eat enough so that you don't screw up your metabolism, or you may actually shut down your ability to burn fat!


Yeah, fair. Something seemed off with the idea of trying to eat 1200 calories a day for my size to lose weight according to MyFitnessPal. Idk, I don't need much given my size but it still seems very low also take into account that my body is changing overall because of hormonal changes and that doesn't include the actual workout that I'm doing which is quite heavy cardio every day. I do a minimum of 600 calories for an hour. Granted, I don't move much during the rest of the day but given that 1200 recommended intake, then it's like I'll only eat 600 and it just makes no sense. 



> Fat weight loss/gain takes ~2 weeks to show up after life-style change (even though it feels like my scale shows a 2 lb gain after a 3 oz chocolate bar... funny how that works) when not coupled with any changes in exercise habits.


It's been a month. Should I still be concerned that I'm eating "too much"? Also, if you mind, could you please use Swedish metrics because US metrics drives my head insane? Since I know you should still know them somewhere


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

ephemereality said:


> Very financially strained, heh. I would rather have something I could do without buying one and spending time measuring stuff during my day.


Imo they give a lot in return because you actually learn how portions look. It's helped me a lot personally and I bought it for 15-20 euro. 
Plus, it's kinda fun to measure things even when not necessary. For example, today I ate a 500g orange. It was huge.


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## bluekitdon (Dec 19, 2012)

ephemereality said:


> The problem is that the only thing I can cut down on are meal sizes. I dont' drink soda, eat candy etc. I am already using MyFitnessPal, but the problem is that I cook most of my food on my own so it's incredibly difficult to track the value of each portion I make. Let's take my chicken soup I did the other day for example. A bit of cream, chicken, curry, soy milk, water, spices etc. How do I know the value of that without measuring stuff very precisely which I can't due to a lack of a scale?
> 
> I know I am eating more to match my new metabolism because it goes crazy when I do start being physically active but from what I can tell I don't seem to eat significantly more than before.


How far off from your ideal weight are you if you don't mind me asking? Here's a good calculator Ideal Weight Calculator 

The reason I ask is that it's pretty easy to lose if you have a ton extra, but once you get down to that low body fat region it becomes very difficult to keep taking it off and precise measurements become a lot harder. So depends on if you're trying to lose a large amount or are getting to the very minor things.

I'd suggest getting some basic measuring cups and just tracking it like a cup of homemade chicken soup is probably somewhere around 100 calories if you look at some of the homemade soups on there.

Portion sizes are a good start as well. If you want to be 3/4 of the weight you are today, try eating 3/4 of the food you normally would today. Make that bowl half instead of completely full.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

bluekitdon said:


> How far off from your ideal weight are you if you don't mind me asking? Here's a good calculator Ideal Weight Calculator


Based on the Robinson formula (1983), your ideal weight is 57.7 kgs
Based on the Miller formula (1983), your ideal weight is 60.4 kgs
Based on the Devine formula (1974), your ideal weight is 56.9 kgs
Based on the Hamwi formula (1964), your ideal weight is 56.1 kgs
Based on the healthy BMI recommendation, your recommended weight is 47.4 kgs - 64.0 kgs

I currently weight 63.3 when I checked at the gym but I think the value was a little higher because I did significantly less cardio today so a lot more water retention that I would otherwise sweat out. I personally estimated that the ideal that I am trying to reach would be around 55 kg some time ago. 



> The reason I ask is that it's pretty easy to lose if you have a ton extra, but once you get down to that low body fat region it becomes very difficult to keep taking it off and precise measurements become a lot harder.


Eh, the problem is that I do have a significant amount of fat on my body that's quite visible. It's not even a matter of "low body fat region" kinda. 



> So depends on if you're trying to lose a large amount or are getting to the very minor things.
> 
> I'd suggest getting some basic measuring cups and just tracking it like a cup of homemade chicken soup is probably somewhere around 100 calories if you look at some of the homemade soups on there.


Are you sure? Even if you stuff 40% fat cream and 2% soy milk in it? Yes, there was water in it too, but I assume the fat should be quite calorie rich even if the rest of the soup isn't. 



> Portion sizes are a good start as well. If you want to be 3/4 of the weight you are today, try eating 3/4 of the food you normally would today. Make that bowl half instead of completely full.


Ok fair, but what about being hungry then? And I'm still doing strength workout, shouldn't I consider that too given that I also want to build muscle? Wouldn't eating a lot less be detrimental to that?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Red Panda said:


> Imo they give a lot in return because you actually learn how portions look. It's helped me a lot personally and I bought it for 15-20 euro.
> Plus, it's kinda fun to measure things even when not necessary. For example, today I ate a 500g orange. It was huge.


Well, isn't a normal portion kind of like the stuff you buy pre-made? I've never eaten like those except when I eat those specifically. Always left me hungry except when I was extremely physically inactive.


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## bluekitdon (Dec 19, 2012)

ephemereality said:


> Based on the Robinson formula (1983), your ideal weight is 57.7 kgs
> Based on the Miller formula (1983), your ideal weight is 60.4 kgs
> Based on the Devine formula (1974), your ideal weight is 56.9 kgs
> Based on the Hamwi formula (1964), your ideal weight is 56.1 kgs
> ...


So you're pretty close to your ideal weight. Then just cut back portion sizes a little would be my advice, don't top off those bowls. Remember that once you eat it takes about half an hour for your body to digest it & turn off that I'm hungry signal, just stuffing things into your stomach doesn't really turn that off. If you're eating when you are hungry and continue eating until you are no longer hungry at all and eating in a short period of time, then you're probably eating too much. If you're still hungry half an hour after you eat then eat some more. That's part of why they say eat multiple small meals during the day, keeps you from getting very hungry in the first place which is what can cause you to overeat.

If you look at body builders, they don't worry too much about fat while they are building muscle. The additional mass actually allows them to gain muscle faster because their body has a lot of reserves to convert over to muscle, then for competition they burn off the fat to display the muscle. It's a balancing act, too little fat and you'll have a really hard time building muscle, too much and you'll just look fat.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

ephemereality said:


> Well, isn't a normal portion kind of like the stuff you buy pre-made? I've never eaten like those except when I eat those specifically. Always left me hungry except when I was extremely physically inactive.


I don't know about those pre-made foods you mention so I can't tell you about that. For example, behind the pack of spaghetti it says portion: 85 grams. Well, usually I ate at least 100g, but now I've learned to control it because I can compare, since I tried the set portion and it actually was enough for my hunger without making me feel bloated. Portions aren't something set in stone of course, but having a scale is a very useful tool to learn just how much you really eat. Measuring with the eye is very unreliable.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

bluekitdon said:


> So you're pretty close to your ideal weight. Then just cut back portion sizes a little would be my advice, don't top off those bowls. Remember that once you eat it takes about half an hour for your body to digest it & turn off that I'm hungry signal, just stuffing things into your stomach doesn't really turn that off. If you're eating when you are hungry and continue eating until you are no longer hungry at all and eating in a short period of time, then you're probably eating too much. If you're still hungry half an hour after you eat then eat some more. That's part of why they say eat multiple small meals during the day, keeps you from getting very hungry in the first place which is what can cause you to overeat.


lol, doesn't feel like I'm very close. It is close if you assume 57 is, but not 56. 

Yeah I know, though I wonder how much my always eating in front of the computer affects this since I end up eating very slowly due to multitasking. Though I also invested in chewing gums for other reasons. Eh, I guess I could try those since simply the act of chewing tricks the body that you are eating and shuts down the hunger signals momentarily. 



> If you look at body builders, they don't worry too much about fat while they are building muscle. The additional mass actually allows them to gain muscle faster because their body has a lot of reserves to convert over to muscle, then for competition they burn off the fat to display the muscle. It's a balancing act, too little fat and you'll have a really hard time building muscle, too much and you'll just look fat.


Ok, I didn't know that part about bodybuilding since I've never tried.



Red Panda said:


> I don't know about those pre-made foods you mention so I can't tell you about that. For example, behind the pack of spaghetti it says portion: 85 grams. Well, usually I ate at least 100g, but now I've learned to control it because I can compare, since I tried the set portion and it actually was enough for my hunger without making me feel bloated. Portions aren't something set in stone of course, but having a scale is a very useful tool to learn just how much you really eat. Measuring with the eye is very unreliable.


I mean those in the freezer that usually come packed around 200-500 calories depending on the type and what you're buying. 

And fair that eyes can deceive you.


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## Zombie Devil Duckie (Apr 11, 2012)

OP, I use MyFitnessPal for monitoring my calorie intake, but when I first started, I used this site to help me determine my nutritional requirements:

Calorie Calculator - Scooby's Home Workouts

The guy who runs the site really seems to know what he is talking about. IMHO... it's solid info! You'll find quite a bit of help on your diet, macros and calorie intake for gaining weight while lifting.


-ZDD


(edit... like this one: Muscle Gain Calculator - Scooby's Home Workouts )


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

ephemereality said:


> Very financially strained, heh. I would rather have something I could do without buying one and spending time measuring stuff during my day.


They are really cheap. I bought mine at the local grocer. This is what you are looking for.

You don't have to measure it forever, but you will need to do so for about six months. This will allow you to get a feel for how many calories and what types you are eating.

Drink plenty of water.

Measure your body dimensions - sometimes you may not lose weight, but you will lose inches.

If you are strength building, up your protein and fats in MFP, and lower your carbs.

HTH


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

ephemereality said:


> I mean those in the freezer that usually come packed around 200-500 calories depending on the type and what you're buying.
> 
> And fair that eyes can deceive you.


I guess it's like that then. 
The important goal for having a scale is to weigh and then find out how much you ate (calories and nutrients). It's just much easier because you can calculate accurately.


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## JustBob31459 (Apr 7, 2014)

If you do strenght training; don't go by a scale to judge. Muscle weighs heaver than fat.

The most important things for strengt/muscle are:
eating right
sleeping well
train in moderation

Go to a bodybuilder forum; they are real experts in food; even if you don't have plans to become a BB. And I noticed the word soy milk. Don't drink soy milk it's has a bad amino profile and might actually break down muscle or at least retard the extra growth you would get from exercising.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

ephemereality said:


> Uhm... let's say the past 10 years roughly lmao.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you have taken something that affects your hormones, this is likely to explain the weight gain.


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## Eudaimonia (Sep 24, 2013)

The easiest and best way for me to lose weight is to eat virtually no calories after 3pm and take *food based *multivitamins (Da Vinci Spectrum) along with probiotics whether in enzyme rich food or in capsule form. There are other little tricks like consuming more calcium especially first thing in the morning and last thing at night and eating fatty fish (salmon, sardines, Atlantic mackerel) to take away cravings for fat and grease. If you find yourself craving sweets then it is probably means you need more protein in your diet or if worse comes to worse, I'll have a spoon full of *raw honey* to keep from eating sugary food.

Another thing people do especially if you find yourself getting unusually cold which is a sign of a slow metabolism, is to eat small amounts of protein (nuts, meat, legumes) every two hours to boost your metabolism throughout the day. This is something I find personally difficult and makes me overly hot, but I have tried it and apparently it worked.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Promethea said:


> If you have taken something that affects your hormones, this is likely to explain the weight gain.


Tl;dr version is that I had my gonads removed in early February and have since then taking HRT but testo instead of estrogen.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

ephemereality said:


> Tl;dr version is that I had my gonads removed in early February and have since then taking HRT but testo instead of estrogen.


Yeah.. look into how that affects weight. People will say its as simple as calories in-calories out, but its not. Hormones really will affect it, particularly something like what you're describing. 

I suspect however, that it will stabilize. Thats all I really know, which is pretty vague, but its a lead perhaps.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Promethea said:


> Yeah.. look into how that affects weight. People will say its as simple as calories in-calories out, but its not. Hormones really will affect it, particularly something like what you're describing.
> 
> I suspect however, that it will stabilize. Thats all I really know, which is pretty vague, but its a lead perhaps.


Wish I knew. I know of people who just take HRT but I have not found anyone in my particular situation who had their gonads removed pre-transition. People who have their gonads remove post-transition are in a different situation since their body is already fully adapted to the new values. But yes, HRT can make you gain weight though in this case it's usually tested on those with their gonads left intact and functioning so idk. 

I had apparently gained weight even before I hit the gym but I presume muscle because I experienced a lot of weird stiffness, soreness, growth etc in mass even though I didn't do much at the time. About 2 kg roughly from what I remember of how I measured it.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Eudaimonia said:


> The easiest and best way for me to lose weight is to eat virtually no calories after 3pm and take *food based *multivitamins (Da Vinci Spectrum) along with probiotics whether in enzyme rich food or in capsule form. There are other little tricks like consuming more calcium especially first thing in the morning and last thing at night and eating fatty fish (salmon, sardines, Atlantic mackerel) to take away cravings for fat and grease. If you find yourself craving sweets then it is probably means you need more protein in your diet or if worse comes to worse, I'll have a spoon full of *raw honey* to keep from eating sugary food.
> 
> Another thing people do especially if you find yourself getting unusually cold which is a sign of a slow metabolism, is to eat small amounts of protein (nuts, meat, legumes) every two hours to boost your metabolism throughout the day. This is something I find personally difficult and makes me overly hot, but I have tried it and apparently it worked.


Cravings are not a problem for most of the part. Especially sugar that seems to otherwise be a big deal for most. The easiest way seems to be to skip/cut down on meal sizes somehow. Possibly try to substitute calorie-rich food with food high in fiber but low calorie somehow to make me feel full.


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## Eudaimonia (Sep 24, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> Cravings are not a problem for most of the part. Especially sugar that seems to otherwise be a big deal for most. The easiest way seems to be to skip/cut down on meal sizes somehow. Possibly try to substitute calorie-rich food with food high in fiber but low calorie somehow to make me feel full.


It has gotten harder to lose weight now that I'm older and after having a kid, so this has been the one thing that has helped is to (almost) skip dinner. If I feel hungry in the evening, then I'll have a boiled egg or mix veg with quinoa or an apple then the occasional glass of milk some nights right before bed as a treat; otherwise, it is mostly about eating healthy. Additionally, I find that I do better if I stay away from caffeine because I'm sensitive to it and it causes my sugar levels to plummet (besides giving me a stomach ache) in the evening which in turn causes me to need to eat to feel normal again. And, I rarely drink alcohol which is all up to the individual how they fair with that, but for me I feel better without it.


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> It's been a month. Should I still be concerned that I'm eating "too much"? Also, if you mind, could you please use Swedish metrics because US metrics drives my head insane? Since I know you should still know them somewhere


It was more of a joke, so the units don't matter - basically I'm saying that 1 regular size chocolate bar seems to be able to add 1 kg in body fat.

So, maybe instead of weighing yourself you should go by the mirror and the feel of your clothes? They say that "the mirror doesn't lie", which is clearly not true, but I think it refers to that the type of weight change (water retention, fat, muscle, etc) is easier to determine in the mirror than on the scale. 

Also, yeah, hormones - oh wow! I've gone through some craziness with those thing as well and the only piece of advice I have is - patience! It will take the time it needs to take. Ironically, stressing about weight generally increases the weight, even though proper steps to reduce weight are taken, due to stress hormone (cortisol) shifts. The cortisol levels are connected to all other hormone levels and if that one is off, the rest of them will be too. You are going throug some huge changes! I admire your will to keep yourself healthy, but you need to be nice to yourself too - I can't imagine that the surgery you went through is trivial by ny stretch of th imagination. 

I think that Dottie's Weight Loss Zone is pretty good too - it's really similar to WW, but it's free. It's a bit of a messy lay-out, but you get receipts, points systems, etc - interesting stuff that can be worth to keep in mind.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

So I think maybe I was a bit over-reactive. I have been noticing some fat loss. I wouldn't say considerable amount and it's difficult because of other body changes, but I definitely seem more fit like, less fat overall, more muscle. Muscle weights more than fat so there's that too.


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## yet another intj (Feb 10, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> I realize that I may gain weight initially due to increase in mass but I was hoping to eventually start losing fat too, not just gaining muscle under the fat.


Human metabolism can't gain only muscle or burn only fat. There's no way to completely control your anabolic/catabolic cycles... But... Best approach would be gaining enough muscle under the fat. Then, trying to burn fat with a strict ketogenic diet. Increased muscle mass = Increased basal metabolic rate/consumption. You can somewhat preserve the muscle if you consume enough amino acid supplements in that period. Don't expect miracles. Humans evolved to adapt and survive, not look good. Everything will be wasted right after you stop messing with your own nature. Worst of all, it's also capable of adapting itself to your artificial efforts... A never ending struggle.


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## TruthDismantled (Jan 16, 2013)

It's also important to note that it's rare for people to gain more than 1 lb of lean muscle in a month. A leading sport nutritionist Dr Michael Colgan PH.D mentions that the most muscle gain he has EVER seen was 18.25 lbs in a year.

So if you've gained 2kg in a month, chances are it is water weight for the most part. Also you probably know this, but be sure to measure yourself at a consistent time of the day, preferably in the morning.

It may help to incorporate compound exercises into your routine (squats, deadlifts, military press, bench press) as this will target more muscle groups, producing higher levels of growth and testosterone, which builds muscle while reducing fat. 

Also, remember low reps (4-8), high weight = strength gain and high reps (8-15), low weight = muscle gain.


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## Permeate (May 27, 2012)

ephemereality said:


> So I think maybe I was a bit over-reactive. I have been noticing some fat loss. I wouldn't say considerable amount and it's difficult because of other body changes, but I definitely seem more fit like, less fat overall, more muscle. Muscle weights more than fat so there's that too.


If you're on HRT, are your test levels at a decent level? I'm not a doctor but I know that it should be monitored.

I've gained around 50 lbs in the past 2 years - probably 40 lbs of muscle. If you're otherwise healthy, doing a challenging strength routine, consuming adequate protein (generally 1g/lb of bodyweight, so prob like 2.2g/kg), and eating at a ~500 calorie surplus (Estimated Calorie Requirements) *will* result in muscle gain. I personally haven't seen visible results after a month... it generally takes around 4 to see a marked difference physically (ime).

A big factor in weight fluctuation is water retention/glycogen stores. Your weight should naturally fluctuate by around 5 lbs. Weigh yourself in the mornings with the same scale and track it if you feel like being pedantic, but I wouldn't consider anything in the range of 5 lbs to be significant. :tongue: I personally measure progress in terms of strength gains, but that's primarily what I train for, and it seems like your goals are different.

What routine are you doing?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Permeate said:


> If you're on HRT, are your test levels at a decent level? I'm not a doctor but I know that it should be monitored.


Can't monitor because I'm self-medding and they refuse to help you until you get an official referral to an endo. I know, retarded, but that's just the way the system is like right now. 



> I've gained around 50 lbs in the past 2 years - probably 40 lbs of muscle. If you're otherwise healthy, doing a challenging strength routine, adequate protein (generally 1g/lb of bodyweight, so prob like 2.2g/kg), eating at a ~500 calorie surplus (Estimated Calorie Requirements) will result in muscle gain. I personally haven't seen visible results after a month... it generally takes around 4 to see a marked difference physically (ime).
> 
> A big factor in weight fluctuation is water retention/glycogen stores. Your weight should naturally fluctuate by around 5 lbs. Weigh yourself in the mornings with the same scale and track it if you feel like being pedantic, but I wouldn't consider anything in the range of 5 lbs to be significant. :tongue: I personally measure progress in terms of strength gains, but that's primarily what I train for, and it seems like your goals are different.
> 
> What routine are you doing?


I know that body health fluctuates over the day etc so I understand it's not reliable, but it was pretty reliable given that I had weighted the same for several weeks and then it changed like that. I tend to workout around the same time of the day so it made sense that I had gained. With that said, now it appears as if I've lost around 3 kg. Not entirely sure how to interpret that but it makes sense because I can definitely notice a difference in total body fat, especially on my stomach. For one you can actually see my abs now lol, but buried under fat. You couldn't before. 

And the routine I'm doing right now is that I'm doing regular daily cardio for an hour and then I do some simple strength of the upper body every other day. By that I mean that I do some moderate lifts. I just went up to over 10kg so I'm not in a hurry. I do biceps curls and overhead curl because these two make me use almost all of my upper body. I'm doing 5x5 that I stole from the 5x5 stronglift routine except I am not following the routine. I just borrowed the logic of increasing it by 2.5kg when I feel comfortable and doing 5x5 reps instead of 8 or what have you. 

Seems to be working out all right since strength is not my primary goal right now.

As for diet since I suppose I can mention that, I cleaned it up pretty much. Little to no carbs and the carbs I eat come mostly from fruit or veggies. I try to avoid white carbs and refined carb products. Trying to eat more fruit and veggies. Sometimes nuts. Otherwise lean protein. That's about it. I purposefully try to make everything I cook full of veggies because I'm otherwise so fucking bad at eating them.

The only thing I try to eat regularly is that drink a glass of fruit smoothie a day that I make on my own. Types of fruit varies. The most significant part is that it's soy milk (and yes I know about estrogen and soy products) because fewer calories, more fibre and other perks. It's to the point where I can have just one glass in the morning and that's it. I don't really need breakfast so that's cool. 

And I'm not spending much time self-monitoring calorie intake but I think I linger around 1200-1500, at most 2000, very shoddy guesstimations.


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## Permeate (May 27, 2012)

ephemereality said:


> Can't monitor because I'm self-medding and they refuse to help you until you get an official referral to an endo. I know, retarded, but that's just the way the system is like right now.
> 
> 
> I know that body health fluctuates over the day etc so I understand it's not reliable, but it was pretty reliable given that I had weighted the same for several weeks and then it changed like that. I tend to workout around the same time of the day so it made sense that I had gained. With that said, now it appears as if I've lost around 3 kg. Not entirely sure how to interpret that but it makes sense because I can definitely notice a difference in total body fat, especially on my stomach. For one you can actually see my abs now lol, but buried under fat. You couldn't before.
> ...


Well if you are untrained you can burn fat and gain muscle simultaneously - as you are likely aware. If you are trying to gain muscle you need to eat more. A lot more. If you eat at maintenance (the calorie calculator I linked to will provide maintenance level calories) you should be able to do a good recomp since you're a beginner. If you really need to lose weight you can eat at greater than a 500 calorie deficit, but it doesn't sound like you need to do something that extreme.

For some perspective: I'm 210 lbs, and if I eat 2 cups (dry) brown rice with 1 lb of chicken breast, I still haven't consumed enough protein. In order to maximize muscle growth you need to be eating a LOT of protein. 

Sorry for the lack of metric units - but the 1g protein/lb bodyweight (2.2g/kg) thing is pretty much the standard in strength training.

Also: you may not want to do them, and that's fine if you have a specific set of goals, but heavy compound movements will result in a faster rate of muscle growth. Movements like squats, deadlifts, etc. will really make a significant difference in the amount of strength you have, which in turn will equate to higher levels of athleticism. You can do them in conjunction with cardio. If you want some resources to teach you proper form, programming, etc. I can provide them if you like. 

Sorry if this came off as patronizing, I've just been in the same situation (minus the HRT stuff).


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## Splash Shin (Apr 7, 2011)

half the advice in this thread are myths, don't work or don't even make sense. 

I'm going to tell you the one simple truth to success in all weight gain and weight loss(especially for gaining muscle and losing fat) goals:

It's 80% Diet, 20% what you do in the gym. 

Its surprising how many people do everything they can to deny that.

If you wana lose fat and gain muscle, you *HAVE* to have a accurate estimate of how many calories you consume per day. You also need to calculate your basic metabolic rate caloric intake, figure out your TDEE(calories you burn doing a single days activities).
If you want to gain muscle, you would find both of these.

Lets say BMR is 2000 calories
Your TDEE is 700
To maintain your weight, you gotta consume 2700 a day *without fail.*
to gain muscle you have to add between 200-500 calories *EVERYDAY* on top of that.
To lose fat you have to eat 100-300 under your maintenance everyday.

To gain muscle and lose fat, is a very hard thing to do if you are experienced in lifting weights. Outside of the first 6 months, it is a waste of effort. For the first 6 months though, it is possible to do both but you are gimping progress a lot on both of these goals. assuming you are carrying significant bodyfat(22%+), you should lose weight before bulking and gaining muscle.
If around 15-17%, assuming your goals are to genuinely gain muscle and not just a six pack, focus on muscle again and not fat loss for now.

If you just want a six pack, you don't need to gain muscle, just get to 11-8% bodyfat. don't recommend it though. looks weird having a six pack with no muscle anywhere, lol.

I'm downplaying what you do in the gym though. If you are doing the wrong things in the gym, you wont make great gains, but if your diet is not consistent for muscle gain, you could have the perfect workout every time but youd not gain any muscle at all.


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## Permeate (May 27, 2012)

Splash Shin said:


> half the advice in this thread are myths, don't work or don't even make sense.
> 
> I'm going to tell you the one simple truth to success in all weight gain and weight loss(especially for gaining muscle and losing fat) goals:
> 
> ...


Exactly this. I have to eat 3400 calories per day to maintain my weight at 6'3 and 210 lbs. I'm trying to get stronger so I'm bulking - I'm eating around 3800-4000 calories now and 250g protein/day. Once I hit 225 I'll do a cut so that I can make the 198 lb weight class.

Most people don't realize the sometimes absurd amount of food they have to consume to build muscle optimally, especially if they've always been skinny or skinny/fat. Muscle just doesn't magically appear or atrophy, you HAVE to count calories. When I was rowing over spring break I ate 5500-6000 calories/day just to maintain my weight.


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## Jwing24 (Aug 2, 2010)

Permeate said:


> Exactly this. I have to eat 3400 calories per day to maintain my weight at 6'3 and 210 lbs. I'm trying to get stronger so I'm bulking - I'm eating around 3800-4000 calories now and 250g protein/day. Once I hit 225 I'll do a cut so that I can make the 198 lb weight class.
> 
> Most people don't realize the sometimes absurd amount of food they have to consume to build muscle optimally, especially if they've always been skinny or skinny/fat. Muscle just doesn't magically appear or atrophy, you HAVE to count calories. When I was rowing over spring break I ate 5500-6000 calories/day just to maintain my weight.


YUP

I shoot for 3300 or so calories / day. I'm a lot smaller at 5'8, 160 so it doesn't require as many to gain, but it is still a lot.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Permeate said:


> Well if you are untrained you can burn fat and gain muscle simultaneously - as you are likely aware. If you are trying to gain muscle you need to eat more. A lot more. If you eat at maintenance (the calorie calculator I linked to will provide maintenance level calories) you should be able to do a good recomp since you're a beginner. If you really need to lose weight you can eat at greater than a 500 calorie deficit, but it doesn't sound like you need to do something that extreme.


I don't have to lose weight from a health perspective since I'm within normal BMI, but it's because of body dysphoria. While you can gain some natural fat distribution from HRT it is nowhere near as effective or good, especially given my lifestyle that's otherwise very sedentary, I will never get rid of that fat on my hips and thighs without actually slimming down. You can do this two ways: either you just focus on your upper body and try to build a shiteload of muscle, especially ceps and shoulders, in order to facilitate a V-shape, but this is obviously going to be fucking difficult no matter how much muscle you bulk if you still have feminine body fat distribution all over your hips and thighs, or you try to get rid of the damn fat that makes you look feminine in the first place which is located on your hips and thighs. 

So I chose to do the latter than the former, and just do some moderate workout on my upper body not with focus on strength gain more than what would come naturally anyway because of HRT. I figured that it's the most effective way of going around things. I've been recommended to for example bulk up first and then slim down within a 3 month margin but sheesh, the time it would take to bulk up first (also, I am not sure I can actually afford to eat that much protein unless I eat lots of beans) but it doesn't solve my primary problem which is related to my sense of body dysphoria linked to anything I associate as feminine on my body and that is fat and is primarily caused by fat. You aren't going to slim down as fast doing compound exercises, that's just the way it is. Yes, more muscle, more burn, but you also need more intake to build muscle. Given that my goal is to get rid of my damn dysphoria associated with a feminine body shape, more muscle isn't going to automatically solve that. I have gained muscle (I was skinny fat well probably still largely is) on my upper body just doing these simple exercises for a bit more than a month. I have also gained strength. I could initially do 5 kg curls when I started doing curls, and I do notice this in terms of muscle gain too. Not significant but significant enough to off shot the fat I'm losing around my hips in particular. 

Since cardio mostly works my lower body (I tend to stick to crosstrainers), I think it's not that bad of a combination I think, given my goal.


> For some perspective: I'm 210 lbs, and if I eat 2 cups (dry) brown rice with 1 lb of chicken breast, I still haven't consumed enough protein. In order to maximize muscle growth you need to be eating a LOT of protein.
> 
> Sorry for the lack of metric units - but the 1g protein/lb bodyweight (2.2g/kg) thing is pretty much the standard in strength training.
> 
> Also: you may not want to do them, and that's fine if you have a specific set of goals, but heavy compound movements will result in a faster rate of muscle growth. Movements like squats, deadlifts, etc. will really make a significant difference in the amount of strength you have, which in turn will equate to higher levels of athleticism. You can do them in conjunction with cardio. If you want some resources to teach you proper form, programming, etc. I can provide them if you like.


I'm reading the daily e-mails Mehdi sends me because I signed up to his 5x5 program without following it, so I think I have a decent idea. I do think he's right to not combine squats with cardio because cardio tends to use your legs a lot. You'll get too tired if you want to keep increasing weight anyway. 



> Sorry if this came off as patronizing, I've just been in the same situation (minus the HRT stuff).


No, it's fine. It's a touchy subject and I think also people don't quite understand my situation because it's related to something different than just seeking fitness or something like that, or even just being unhappy because you are overweight or look overweight. It's specifically a way to deal with dysphoria but whatever I'm doing is apparently having a result so I just keep doing it. Maybe not at the speed I was hoping but it's difficult because my body is changing so much in general right now. There's no real guideline to follow and honestly people don't understand this either. It's not that I'm not well-read on the subject. I think I understand better than most people realize. Yes, measuring calories is important but up to a certain point. I have gotten an idea about calorie worth about most things I eat, and while I may be off with the total weight I consume as a whole given how rigorously I work out I don't think it's a problem because I doubt I overeat that much. I probably have a total burn of at least 800-900 a day just from the cardio.

That calculator you gave me said I should eat 2500-ish a day if I want to keep my weight by the way. Unless I eat a lot of carbs I don't think I'll get there that easily. 



Splash Shin said:


> half the advice in this thread are myths, don't work or don't even make sense.
> 
> I'm going to tell you the one simple truth to success in all weight gain and weight loss(especially for gaining muscle and losing fat) goals:
> 
> ...


See, that's the problem. Everyone assumes I want to bulk up lol. That's a bonus perk from workout, not a primary goal.


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## Permeate (May 27, 2012)

ephemereality said:


> I don't have to lose weight from a health perspective since I'm within normal BMI, but it's because of body dysphoria. While you can gain some natural fat distribution from HRT it is nowhere near as effective or good, especially given my lifestyle that's otherwise very sedentary, I will never get rid of that fat on my hips and thighs without actually slimming down. You can do this two ways: either you just focus on your upper body and try to build a shiteload of muscle, especially ceps and shoulders, in order to facilitate a V-shape, but this is obviously going to be fucking difficult no matter how much muscle you bulk if you still have feminine body fat distribution all over your hips and thighs, or you try to get rid of the damn fat that makes you look feminine in the first place which is located on your hips and thighs.
> 
> So I chose to do the latter than the former, and just do some moderate workout on my upper body not with focus on strength gain more than what would come naturally anyway because of HRT. I figured that it's the most effective way of going around things. I've been recommended to for example bulk up first and then slim down within a 3 month margin but sheesh, the time it would take to bulk up first (also, I am not sure I can actually afford to eat that much protein unless I eat lots of beans) but it doesn't solve my primary problem which is related to my sense of body dysphoria linked to anything I associate as feminine on my body and that is fat and is primarily caused by fat. You aren't going to slim down as fast doing compound exercises, that's just the way it is. Yes, more muscle, more burn, but you also need more intake to build muscle. Given that my goal is to get rid of my damn dysphoria associated with a feminine body shape, more muscle isn't going to automatically solve that. I have gained muscle (I was skinny fat well probably still largely is) on my upper body just doing these simple exercises for a bit more than a month. I have also gained strength. I could initially do 5 kg curls when I started doing curls, and I do notice this in terms of muscle gain too. Not significant but significant enough to off shot the fat I'm losing around my hips in particular.
> 
> ...


Well your title was a little misleading.

just out of curiosity- how is HRT different from simply doing test or something? I know people on steroids have no problems with fat loss.

Also: I do 1-2 hours of cardio, 2 sprint sessions, while squatting and deadlifting heavy 3x a week. It's definitely doable, albeit at a slightly higher degree of fitness.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Permeate said:


> Well your title was a little misleading.


Yes, because it was in relation to that I noticed temporary weight gain after a month of workout, hence, should I be concerned?



> just out of curiosity- how is HRT different from simply doing test or something? I know people on steroids have no problems with fat loss.


Because you keep the hormone levels within normal ranges. Steroids is above normal. 



> Also: I do 1-2 hours of cardio, 2 sprint sessions, while squatting and deadlifting heavy 3x a week. It's definitely doable, albeit at a slightly higher degree of fitness.


Yeah ok, I'm not quite willing to dedicate that much time I think lol.


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## Devrim (Jan 26, 2013)

Splash Shin said:


> half the advice in this thread are myths, don't work or don't even make sense.
> 
> I'm going to tell you the one simple truth to success in all weight gain and weight loss(especially for gaining muscle and losing fat) goals:
> 
> ...


Your firs thought only applies to certain bodies,
Any trainer would agree with you when discussing the abdominal region,
But not when it comes to building muscle mass en masse,
That requires exercise and eating at a 50/50 level.


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## Splash Shin (Apr 7, 2011)

SirenOfTheGanges said:


> Your firs thought only applies to certain bodies,
> Any trainer would agree with you when discussing the abdominal region,
> But not when it comes to building muscle mass en masse,
> That requires exercise and eating at a 50/50 level.


Nope. It applies to all bodies. End of story. You need to eat enough in all strength/weightless/weightgain goals.
you can literally be 300lbs overweight and get back down to healthy range without exercising once.(and you wouldn't even come close to starving yourself)

You could workout perfectly in line with all our scientifically proven methods, but if you don't eat enough you wont grow any significant muscle mass outside of the body's biological response to adapt in the beginning(you may see a lb or 2 of muscle gain).

Drug free, that is.

If you eat a large surplus, you could have pretty bad half-effort workouts and still see muscle gain, just not as fast.

@*ephemereality*

Even if it is only a bonus perk for you, eating enough will make your workouts tat much better. You will see big linear progress In your strength practically every session. if you under eat, you wont see much strength gain in any timely manner.

Personally that is big motivation for me. I love getting stronger and strong on my lifts.


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## stargazing grasshopper (Oct 25, 2013)

Psychosmurf said:


> You can't lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, generally. You have to work out while on a cutting diet if you want to lose fat without sacrificing muscle.


Heavy weights & brief sets will build muscle rapidly while melting away the fat & significantly reducing loose flabby skin.
Yes an individual absolutely can lose fatty tissue while building muscle by lifting progressively heavier weights because doing so will jumpstart metabolism, causing the body to begin burning fat even while at rest.
A sensible diet is essential because it'll help reduce fat while building muscle & without starving oneself.
Such a fitness regiment is far less likely to cause relapse back into an unhealthy lifestyle.
A positive effect is often noticeable within three weeks, that often boosts confidence to stick with the routine.

A variable effect is that by increasing muscle to burn fat & increase metabolism, an overweight individual doesn't notably suffer flabby loose skin that so commonly disheartens the "skinny fat" dieters.

A guy can eat smart & spend (6 hrs weekly) 90 minutes working out in a home gym every other day vs spending 15+ hours per week doing cardio & three times the financial investment within the first year but only to achieve the papa smurf look.


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## Psychosmurf (Aug 22, 2010)

stargazing grasshopper said:


> Heavy weights & brief sets will build muscle rapidly while melting away the fat & significantly reducing loose flabby skin.
> Yes an individual absolutely can lose fatty tissue while building muscle by lifting progressively heavier weights because doing so will jumpstart metabolism, causing the body to begin burning fat even while at rest.
> A sensible diet is essential because it'll help reduce fat while building muscle & without starving oneself.
> Such a fitness regiment is far less likely to cause relapse back into an unhealthy lifestyle.
> ...


Yeah.... uhhh.... nooo... yeah... noooo....


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

Here is what I know:

In my experience while fasting, My body would retain all muscles as long as I used those particular muscles. If I did not work out, I would loose muscle mass and strength just as rapidly as I was loosing fat. 

Mind boggling fact:

Muscles do not gain or loose muscles cells. They retain the same amount of cells they only increase in size and strength. When they increase in size it is fluid retention within the cells, not protein retention. D: "really?" is what I said to my physiology teacher after he informed us of this. "Then why do they say we need to eat more protein in order to gain muscle mass and strength???" I said. He replied that it is a mystery we do not yet understand and no one is really sure if you need to ingest more protein or not in order to build or retain muscle mass and strength. 

Another Cool Fact from Food Nutrition 101 in College:

Your body, with the exception of when fasting, only uses 10% to 15% protein as energy in any given time period. The rest is carb and fat metabolization into energy. Any excess protein ingested in that time period is cleaned out by the kidneys and dumped into urine. This is called protein wasting. This means if you ingest more protein than the body can use in that time period to do things such as make hormones and whatnot, any excess over that and 10% to 15% going to energy will tax the kidneys and be wasted. 

Also:

Protein is in the body in two main ways ie., as hormones floating freely through the blood stream performing all sorts of functions, and as part of the make up of any and all cells, not just muscle cells. When a cell dies, it is sent to the lymph system. It is carried by the lymph vessels to a lymph node where it is then digested into its parts and duped back into the blood stream to be used as food or cleaned out by the kidneys or liver if a toxin...JUST LIKE FOOD WE INGEST BY MOUTH except that food ingested by mouth has to go through our entire digestive system in order to be digested instead of going through a lymph node. Therefore! We really should not need that much extra protein ingested by mouth since our bodies recycle ourselves already. The only cells that leave our bodies not to be recycled are mainly skin, hair, and nails. 

Tada!!


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

You can try coconut or almond milk instead of soy milk. They sell it right next to the soy milk. Also, almonds supposedly have testosterone or increase your bodies testosterone somehow. That is what an ex of mine told me and he was an MMA fighter so he had to keep track of his weight and stuff for fights. He would eat a ton of almonds and drink almost no water (if fighting in a lower body weight segment) before a fight to get his testosterone up and body weight down.


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

Permeate said:


> Most people don't realize the sometimes absurd amount of food they have to consume to build muscle optimally, especially if they've always been skinny or skinny/fat. Muscle just doesn't magically appear or atrophy, you HAVE to count calories. When I was rowing over spring break I ate 5500-6000 calories/day just to maintain my weight.


I beg to differ. Unless I am fasting, which is a story unto itself, If I use a muscle more, it it gets noticeably bigger and more cut-no matter what I am eating. Note: for my whole life I have generally had only about two servings of meat per week. The rest is grains, small amount of beans and nuts, fruits, veggies, eggs, oils, vinegar, milk products such as ice cream, yogurt, and cheese. My body tends to gain muscle mass very easily and quickly solely based on use. My body does crave animal fat though. If I do not eat animal fat or broth at least once a week in general I will start to feel unwell like I am not filled with good feelings somehow. The pain will increase in my body I have not isolated the part of the animal specifically that does this but I have ruled out protein, carbs, vitamins and minerals. It must be some other thing such as fat or a hormone or something in the bone marrow or connective tissue. None of what I eat on a regular basis does the trick for some reason.


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## Eudaimonia (Sep 24, 2013)

Unicorntopia said:


> You can try coconut or almond milk instead of soy milk. They sell it right next to the soy milk. Also, almonds supposedly have testosterone or increase your bodies testosterone somehow. That is what an ex of mine told me and he was an MMA fighter so he had to keep track of his weight and stuff for fights. He would eat a ton of almonds and drink almost no water (if fighting in a lower body weight segment) before a fight to get his testosterone up and body weight down.



Since you mentioned it, I had to look it up. Two sites talk about nutritional benefits of almonds and how they effect the body. Good to know. I've been eating sprouted almonds for my stomach for a couple years now but I didn't know all the other things it does.

Does Eating Almonds Raise Your Testosterone Levels? | LIVESTRONG.COM

Eating Almonds for Hormones | LIVESTRONG.COM

Please forgive the gimmickiness of the sites, but I'm sure with someone with the time can research each claim one at a time if one wants to put in the effort. I read Life Extension magazine which features latest research on nutrition and health. (It was actually an ex-roommate's subscription which won't stop being delivered to my place) and it has similar articles about nuts in general and how they affect the hormone levels in the body and supposedly help fight cancer.


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

You are complaining about 4.5 or so pounds? Just assume the best and keep working out. It's probably a combination of increaded mass and water retention as you've been working out and you've probably adjusted your water intake accordingly.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Unicorntopia said:


> You can try coconut or almond milk instead of soy milk. They sell it right next to the soy milk. Also, almonds supposedly have testosterone or increase your bodies testosterone somehow. That is what an ex of mine told me and he was an MMA fighter so he had to keep track of his weight and stuff for fights. He would eat a ton of almonds and drink almost no water (if fighting in a lower body weight segment) before a fight to get his testosterone up and body weight down.


Nope, you can't find stuff like almond milk here unless you are seeing very well-sorted stores and I know none nearby who may import. We have milk, soy milk and wheat milk. 



Diligent Procrastinator said:


> You are complaining about 4.5 or so pounds? Just assume the best and keep working out. It's probably a combination of increaded mass and water retention as you've been working out and you've probably adjusted your water intake accordingly.


I weight around 48-49 kg now unless I eat a lot but this seems consistent regardless of the time of the day I weight myself in at. I think it's consistent with the fat loss I've been seeing as well.


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## saturnne (Sep 8, 2009)

I highly recommend weightgrapher.com 
It shows you that despite the weight fluctuations, it still probably means you're on track to losing weight. It focuses on the trend line and not the individual data points for each weight day/whenever you weigh in.


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## ShatteredHeart (Jul 11, 2014)

Not sure what you are doing to work out, but here is what has been working for me

90 Days of Action

I've been losing about 2 pounds per week and gaining muscle at the same time. Added 30 minutes of tread mill each day jumped me to 3 pounds per week


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

ShatteredHeart said:


> Not sure what you are doing to work out, but here is what has been working for me
> 
> 90 Days of Action
> 
> I've been losing about 2 pounds per week and gaining muscle at the same time. Added 30 minutes of tread mill each day jumped me to 3 pounds per week


If you lose that much per week you must have been pretty overweight though? No offense meant with the question.


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## ShatteredHeart (Jul 11, 2014)

5'9 197 lbs, not really big but gots a belly


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