# Maybe haz a Brain-fix! 847 vs 845



## Animal (May 29, 2012)

I am certain of my core (8) and my heart fix (4w3) - so if you don't agree with that premise, this might not be the place for you =( 

Ask me questions that will help pin down my head fix!


From tritype related threads, I will embolden the stuff that is relevant.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
458 – The Scholar Archetype 

The 845 is the somewhat *introverted, intelligent,* headstrong, detached, hyper introspective *problem solver with strategic thinking and emotional astuteness.*

*Darkest tritype-458, 854, 584 (particularly when 4 or 5 are in charge)

Also if you are still considering 548 (or 845): *she said this is the the most intense type, particularly if sexual. Intuitive, knowledgeable and direct. This is the type that really craves knowing what makes people tick and builds what she calls mental or internal maps that are quite astute as to what makes people do what they do*. This tends to be the darkest of the tritypes because of the intensity of the 3 types (particularly if 4 or 5 is in charge). David said there is a propensity toward the grotesque, anatomical or intensely esoteric. This is the "true scholar" and the life mission is to disseminate what information is found. The blind spot is this has 3 types that can be prone to arrogance and the attachment to the internal map of what they've found can make them blind to new information as it comes in. So there will be a tendency to become fixed in their worldview or ideas particularly about people and not take in new information. So while the map is quite extraordinary that they've painted they may miss a whole region and thus not have the full picture. This is also the most cynical and the tendency to be so overly opinionated can make people turn off to their wisdom.* She said when 8 is in charge there is a bit more compassion*, and with an integrated 5 or 4 in charge you get a gifted spiritual teacher (Russ Hudson for example)
An intensely original archetype with a passion to explore and to find the hidden meaning in all things.

874 and 854 are very similar and can be difficult to distinguish as 8 has access to both 7 and 5. What is helpful is to look at the differences between 7 and 5. The most critical aspect engagement. The 7 engages and brings a positive outlook to the 84_. *The 5 is more internal and brings more introversion and reserve. The 874 is more outgoing and spontaneous. it is the difference between facts vs activities.*

‎854 and 862 share the* self-possessed confidence with solution mastery. The 854 is the artsy and intellectual 8 -- with a secret self-consciousness. *The 862 is the champion rescuer, protector with a great need to help-- more duty.


(4)-5-8 - The Power-Seeking 4
4-(5)-8 - The Reactive 5
*4-5-(8) - The Withdrawn 8*

*Impenetrable inner world. *They are complex individuals, but they are more characterized by the way they tend to push everyone away from them.


*845: Intuitive and knowledgeable 8. Most withdrawn 8, specially if introverted, 9 wing and/or sp.*

*eight with a four fix: the moody, loner eight. distinct outsider quality; as if on a highly
personal mission. tendency to feel exempt from conventional rules
and circumstances.
*
The 458 is more openly emotional and expressive. The 548 is more mental and reserved...like the difference between 4 and 5. Both are intuitive thinkers and tend to be introverted. They are intellectuals that take action when they feel strongly about something.* Others are always surprised when the 8 appears as this tritype appears quiet.*


*The 485 is an intensely original archetype with a passion to explore and find the hidden meaning in all things.*
*
The 845 is more introverted intuition with the attention going inward. It can be darker and is more cynical.*

*[Intense, especially with sx first. Independent,* dark, cynical. Most eccentric, creative 5 that tends to swing between detachment and emotionality. Most 4ish 5, especially with four wing. Tough-minded, analytical 4 that is staunchly individualistic. *Withdrawn, sensitive, creative 8.* "Scholar" archetype if I remember correctly. *Wants to know what makes people tick.*

I would caution against such a romanticized view of this tritype as it may defeat the value of knowing one’s type. I would disagree with a lot of the first things you said about this combination – “many real selves” and “subject to flux”. I find a kind of coherency in that here you’ve got two reactive types (4,8) two rejection (5,8) two withdrawn (4,5) and *three very independent, very resistant to anything that originates outside itself, and not particularly concerned with objectivity, consistency, or interested in being accessible in any way. The greatest fluctuation I feel is between feeling incredibly hard and strong to being very self-conscious and inept. Strong and Vulnerable are my two modes, brought out when I feel I am unable to make that leap across the fragments of words and space between myself and someone I have an interest in.*

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

478 – The Messenger Archetype

*The 847 is the passionate, cutting edge, innovative, compassionate, freedom seeking, creative, non conformist focused on implementing and manifesting their original vision.*

**Most freedom loving-*-478, 874, 784

*sexual 748 is a very flamboyant type...748/847/478 is the most in need of freedom*. This is the messenger archetype that feels *they have a message to impart and wants the freedom to explore themselves and their external worlds*. WIth 7 in charge it's an extremely hard to pin down type, that typically has no problems expressing the flamboyancy this tritype can bring (with 4 in charge the self consciousness can take over, like with myself, and* with 8 in charge you get more of a playful 7ish 8,* like Pink or Katherine Fauvre). She also said it's the least political of the tritypes (except maybe the 548 tritype) because of the outspoken nature of the three types coming to together (which helps explain why the whole political nature of grad school completely evades me).

478/784/847 Description: If you are the 478, you are intuitive, innovative and straight-forward. You want to be original, inspirational and self-possessed. A cutting-edge tracker of both your internal and external worlds, you are an *unconventional, passionate master of solutions. Outwardly, you are confident but inwardly you are emotionally vulnerable. *Life Mission: Your life mission is to find truth and communicate your findings. *A true messenger, you are happiest when you use your creativity to find compassionate ways to understand yourself and empower others. *Blind Spot: You can be so focused on your opinions, insights and what is new and profound that your freedom seeking nature *can come across as arrogant, resistant, and/or uncooperative.*


*847: Intuitive and innovative. Most creative, original and noncomforming 8. Moody, intense, eccentric 8 especially if sx.
*
874 and 854 are very similar and can be difficult to distinguish as 8 has access to both 7 and 5. What is helpful is to look at the differences between 7 and 5. The most critical aspect engagement. The 7 engages and brings a positive outlook to the 84_. The 5 is more internal and brings more introversion and reserve. The 874 is more outgoing and spontaneous. it is the difference between facts vs activities.


*4-7-(8) - The idealistic 8*

*Somewhat manic. Dramatic and somewhat confrontational. Uncontrolled emotions.

eight with a four fix: the moody, loner eight. distinct outsider quality; as if on a highly
personal mission. tendency to feel exempt from conventional rules
and circumstances.*

*If 478 there is an emphasis on freedom, inspiration and diversity.*

*This tritype is the most creative type on the enneagram regardless of which type is in charge. This creativity may or may not have artistic talent but always has a sense of aesthetics. All three crave authenticity, depth and individuality,*

*The 847 craves autonomy and must be the master and commander of their lives. The 847 does not seek mirroring unless very narcissistic. All narcissistic types demand an undo amount of mirroring to feel safe.* The 487 uses the power of indifference when in defense.

*847: Intuitive and innovative. Most creative, original and noncomforming 8. Moody, intense, eccentric 8 especially if sx.*
* The 8-7-4 is a fast paced creative, feelingful and optimistic *Type 8 whereas the 8-2-6 is a more cynical, loyal and helpful Type 8.


874 and 854 are very similar and can be difficult to distinguish as 8 has access to both 7 and 5. What is helpful is to look at the differences between 7 and 5. The most critical aspect engagement. *The 7 engages and brings a positive outlook to the 84_. The 5 is more internal and brings more introversion and reserve. *The 874 is more outgoing and spontaneous. it is the difference between facts vs activities.

*If your primary Type is 8, you might have a Tritype configuration of 8-7-4. The primary Enneagram Type for you would be Type 8, however, this Tritype combination indicates that you would most likely be a strong, positive person who seeks solutions (8), options (7) and meaning (4). What is fascinating is that if the strategy of Type 8 fails to give you the desired results of overcoming obstacles, you would then employ the strategy of Type 7 and then if needed Type 4.*
*
874 tritype feels lighter and more enthusiastic to me, than does the 847 tritype, which feels more like a strike of lightning burrowing into the ground.*

*Perhaps the tritype is 847 where 7 acts as an ever-running generator*, constantly humming underneath the surface. The 7 energy operates more like "monkey mind" than a physically expressed energy.

As an sx 874 I feel called to discover as much as I can about human nature and then share what I learned. *Some of my greatest moments of clarity have come during times of great adversity. When I feel grief and loss it always feels personal and I feel separate from others. When I allow the pain and suffering the 8 wants to avoid, I am able to connect to that which is universal and know that all people everywhere understand the meaning of loss. This is when I remember that I am never truly alone or separate*

The 458, 468 and 478 are all truth tellers in their own way. The 458 and 478 are their own authorities.

*The 847 is more extroverted intuition with the attention going outward. It is a lighter and is more optimistic*


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

You know we went over this before but how can you discern between the motivations of 7 and the motivations of 5 in yourself?


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

LeaT said:


> You know we went over this before but how can you discern between the motivations of 7 and the motivations of 5 in yourself?


I know I have a lot of connection to 5, but I'm also a 8-core and will have a connection to 5 regardless. When I read Naranjo, I related a lot to 2, and I don't have that for a fix. I know that you also, as a core 5, have a strong connection to 7 which I can even see in you day to day, and obviously that isn't a fix. It was easier for me to see the 7 in you than to even pin down your gut fix right away although I am certain now that youre correctly typed.

But then let's take me and you. Some people have pointed out that your personality is more direct & 'to the point' while I am more friendly, upbeat, etc. Is this possible for an 845, as a whole? It could be - my core is different htan yours and I'm an ENFP. But the way my personality 'looks' as a whole seems more 847-tritype.

That being said, if we break it down into motivation....

I know I gave you this list before so I should look for it. I'm not denying that I have A LOT of 5 going on, but again, I have that line. 

If you ask me why I do things a lot of it will boil down to core 8, and some even to my 4 fix which is why I am convinced it's my next fix. For instance why did I disintegrate? I lost my voice which was my income & my passion and my ticket to autonomy but also my identity. There's a possibility for 7ness in here too because I did have a god-like, immortal self-image before I lost my voice, thinking I'd live forever and nothing can stop me. It's not enough to be core 7 narcissism, but I did have that feeling that is described for a lot of 'rebellious' teenagers where they think they're above the law and they own the world. All of that came crashing down when I lost my voice and I was forced to reckon with being human just like everyone else. I wasnt a rockstar or 'free' anymore. 

Then, there is the issue of my album (I don't wanna type out the name but you know what it is), and the fact that I couldn't relate more to the description of the 847 tritype being addicted to freedom. All of my freedom-oriented thinking. On the other website someone broke it down in type 8 words: Freedom from being controlled by someone else. In essence, this IS what I wanted freedom from and why it was such a compulsive thing - because I didn't want someone else telling me what to do, to the point where I refused monogomous relationship, sharing leases with other people, etc. It became more of a 'chain' than something I could call 'freedom.' So if we are going to break this down into enneagram terms- freedom from being controlled (8 - undeniably the biggest motivator here) , freedom from being stopped from expressing myself or being expected to be someone I'm not (this was HUGE for me and is a big enough motivator that I could actually consider core 4 for a minute), freedom from being deprived of chances if someone better comes along? Yeah, I can't deny that one. Freedom from being overwhelmed by the needs and demands of others? Can't deny that one either. it's huge.

I could do this all day. I know that when someone asks me questions, about specific situations and why I do things, my strategy does tend to be to withdraw in order to get power and control. This is why I cannot settle for 874, ever; but 854 and 84X are both options. My secondary strategy isnt really 7ish when the shit hits the fan. I do withdraw to try to gain control in situations when I feel out of control; specifically romance, when I feel rejected, etc. But is this also because 8's stress point is 5?

7's strategies would include gaining admiration of others , and I know that I do enough of this that at one point I thought I could be a 3. I don't do this on purpose or feel like I need everyone to like me (or hate me, or notice me at all)... I am perfectly fine just having my friends and going unnoticed, but then when I do meet people or I want to talk to them, I'm nice and friendly unlike a 5. This is the *biggest* reason I'm considering 7 for the third fix and it keeps gnawing at me no matter how many amazing typers & good friends tell me that I'm 5 fixed because of how I think and strategize. I simply cannot find any motivation or reason to be that friendly within the 845 tritype. If I ask myself why I do it, the only thing I can come up with is, I'm nice to those who are nice to me/ habit/ I enjoy some people and like being around them so it makes me feel like being this way / I'm reactive/ etc. Am I always nice & upbeat ? Obviously not. I can be bitchy, cruel, cold, all of those things - I can also brood & withdraw for long periods kind of like a 4.  But what would be my motivation in the first place for being so nice by default..... is it 845ish? Is it 5ish? I don't know. And this is why I give credence to the 'vibe typing' because, it is that friendliness that seems a bit strange for a 845. It goes way beyond internet stereotypes, or people just not wanting to let anyone identify with the 'cool' tritype, or some shit like that. When I actually sit down and ask myself WHY am I so friendly? It's... simply put ? Because I enjoy it. I can't come up with anything else. And why would I do that, if my motivations were more fact, knowledge and information based? In that case would I not find 'stupid people' more offensive than 'uncompassionate people?" I dont know...


Also, if I read my old diary & lifestyle from when I was disintegrated and all of my motives were showing - there was some avarice, but there is TONS of lust, a lot of gluttony with really bad habits and my anti-monogamy ways, and a decent amount of envy but that is a complicated issue that would require too many personal details about other people here and isn't worth it cuz I already know I'm 4-fixed. The lust was beyond apparent. The gluttony is there though. There are lots of lists and planning for the future, and at that time, although there was a lot of action in the present, I always thought about the future and what I would do once I was done with this semester or school. I had long lists of songs I planned to record and the style I planned to record them in - and this is in my diary that I wrote when I was on sleeping pills or drunk or barely awake. My mind immediately went to all my lust & power stuff & the emptiness I filled up with my hunger and thirst and lust and the people I wanted who I couldn't have (8 and 4) and also, TONS of lists of plans. Where does that come from? I wasn't sitting there trying to figure things out all the time, although I did some of that too..... I did sometimes ask myself, WHY do I want this... but more commonly, I just went on to the next thought and the next thought and the next, thinking I'd fix everything with my future plans. That has to mean something.... can it just be Ne?


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Also, my friend is a strong contender for an 854 or 853 tritype - and he is much, much, much more withdrawn than I am. I 'feel' more 8w7 and he 'feels' more 8w9 by comparison to me, though I still may be an 8w9. His demeanor is much more detached, cool, aloof than mine, even though he's also very sweet & amazing with people once you actually talk to him (which is why I'd put him at 853, probably). He really values thinking, figuring himself out, looking inwards. He reads book after book about the mind, mind power, etc. I don't do this; I read enneagram, sure.. and I studied eastern religion.. so I've done some "wondering how things work" - but usually as far as non-fiction I read rockstar biographies, dictator biographies, and other things that inspire my characters' magnanimous plans or even mirror my own when I was healthy.

And to draw a comparison between me and someone else, I'm a lot more similar to my type 8 friend underneath, when we actually discuss our motivations and outlook - but I seem much more similar to my father who is an ENTP 7w8-8w7-4w3, probably.

And then think about when I talk to you - we have a lot in common and get along great, but where do we connect? We connect a lot on the 8 stuff and 4 stuff. When 5 stuff starts getting talked about and analyzed to the ends of the earth, I will be really interested if it's a topic I'm already interested - but if I'm not that interested in that topic or I don't know much about it, I don't feel like I "need to know" - I usually drift away and do something that I want to do. I know that I have 5 in me and I gain power by withdrawing, but wouldnt someone who is 5 fixed feel like they need to know things, and need to know more and more... ?? Whereas I am like "what can I do with this? "


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Also, let's look at the way I approach knowledge or a field I'm studying - enneagram for instance.

- I started thinking about types for my characters so I could understand them better.
- I came to PerC, thinking I knew a lot about enneagram and a lot about myself; and I was a 5 because I'd read a few books and drawn that conclusion. (I didn't even notice that they were all by the same authors, R&H.) However I thought I could also maybe be an 8.
- After spying on the 8 forum one day, because of a character who is an 8, I was not sure.. so I started posting rather impulsively. I never thought about what I was writing even though my identity was openly revealed on PerC - website, etc, at the time.
- After a few days I thught hmm I posted personal stuff, better remove my identity. (More impulsiveness)
- I went in and argued with people on typing threads, thinking I knew a lot about enneagram, and didn't want to look at certain things about myself , so I settled on 5 with 8 fix for a while (this is crucial: I ran away from what I didnt want to see.)
- I started realizing I could no longer justify being typed at 5 which showed me that there is actually a lot I don't know about enneagram or about myself. The fact that I mistyped or made this error was embarrassing to me and kind of knocked me off my high horse because I realized I paraded in here knowing about enneagram when I really didn't know enough. (What 5 would do this?) So instead of typing at 8 in a slow, realistic manner from research, I jumped on the first viable option that was presented to me: 3w4. (7 was also presented as an option but I knew I'm not a core 7 because i went over this before)
- Still running from myself at 3w4, I started posting on the 3 forum but I could not justify that for long, either. In my personal life, one event after another kept happening which revealed that I'm an 8; clear 8 motives, 8 actions, 8ish defenses, etc. It all kept gathering up like a sponge sopping up all this knowledge about enneagram and ability to "evaluate myself" through that lens and when the sponge got too heavy and I rang it out, all that was left was 8.
- I started breaking down emotionally and getting really upset with people on the site who challenged my type, because I was sure I had the right one and it was so hard for me to accept. When people asked me questions about it I was angry and moody and pissy because of realizing who I really am and coming to terms with it. (Not very detached....)
- At that point I apologized to a few people who I had 'yelled at' on the forum.
- I dropped PerC for a while so I could keep a clear head, and read all my sources, though it was very hard for me. I asked myself the hard questions. I was determined to figure it out. 
- After reading my sources and being sure of my core type and heart fix, based on those sources and also communicating in depth with other people who have great ideas on enneagram, I then returned to PerC but this time my attitude was much more modest because I had suddenly found out how much I *don't* know and I was a bit humbled.

Does that sound like someone who collected all their knowledge before they impulsively jumped in? I have a bit of that over-confidence where I can be really impulsive and it's something I don't like about myself because it reminds me of my father, but I am trying to be realistic. =/


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

@Maybe

Based on this thread and what I've observed, you definitely have a 7 fix IMO. You don't strike me as either aloof, detached, removed or anything of that sort. Even regardless of the Sx influence, you'd still be pretty withdrawn with a 5 fix. You're surrounded by enough 5 cores or fixers to notice the difference between them and you, anyway


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> @_Maybe_
> 
> Based on this thread and what I've observed, you definitely have a 7 fix IMO. You don't strike me as either aloof, detached, removed or anything of that sort. Even regardless of the Sx influence, you'd still be pretty withdrawn with a 5 fix. You're surrounded by enough 5 cores or fixers to notice the difference between them and you, anyway


Yeah - I spend a lot of time alone, but I'm still not sure if that's enough to qualify as "withdrawn" because during that time, I'm "doing" rather than "researching" if that makes sense? Or, I'm posting on PerC and during that time I'm friendly & impulsive as I described.

I have decent reason to have strongly considered 5 fix, but I didn't really emphasize it here - I'll probably write that out soon, but I'm having trouble untangling whether that's just my line to 5/ disintegration or an actual fix. I have trouble with detachment when I'm disintegrated, but the rest of the time, my impulsivity & reactivity probably gets me in trouble more often than my detachment - as you know all too well, lol  - as long as I'm not super unhealthy.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Maybe said:


> Yeah - I spend a lot of time alone, but I'm still not sure if that's enough to qualify as "withdrawn" because during that time, I'm "doing" rather than "researching" if that makes sense? Or, I'm posting on PerC and during that time I'm friendly & impulsive as I described.
> 
> I have decent reason to have strongly considered 5 fix, but I didn't really emphasize it here - I'll probably write that out soon, but I'm having trouble untangling whether that's just my line to 5/ disintegration or an actual fix. I have trouble with detachment when I'm disintegrated, but the rest of the time, my impulsivity & reactivity probably gets me in trouble more often than my detachment, as long as I'm not super unhealthy.


If you've never read Maitri's chapter on 7s, you should. It gives a very different perspective on the type than the usual "7s are party animals" stereotypes. And I definitely don't think 7s or 7 fixers can't be withdrawn. Everyone needs alone time, that's just human.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> If you've never read Maitri's chapter on 7s, you should. It gives a very different perspective on the type than the usual "7s are party animals" stereotypes. And I definitely don't think 7s or 7 fixers can't be withdrawn. Everyone needs alone time, that's just human.


Her book is really good. I read Maitri's book and also 3 Naranjo books and some excerpts from Palmer over the past few months. I know a few 7s and none of them are happy-go-lucky party animals like that stereotype, and I really didn't have that stereo-type in mind.... but to be fair, once I had figured out my core, I was pretty focused & honed in on that, because it seemed more important than nailing down my head fix. However by now, i've been absorbing those implications for a few months, so I'm ready to sort this out. I will re-read her chapter on 7s... the only ones that I've "re-read" lately have been Naranjo (which paints an even less happy-go-lucky picture of 7s... lol).

Also I'm sure if I am 7 fixed, it's 7w6 , and not 7w8...... and my friend who is a 7w6 is rather withdrawn himself; possibly even more withdrawn than I am overall, being that his other two fixes are 9 and 4.

Edit: All of that being said, the amount of alone time that I need is above and beyond. I'm not necessarily withdrawn when I'm out (though I can be, I can really keep to myself in some social situations, which my type 7 friend never does, and the other 7s I know don't really do either )..... but that depends on my mood, the company, etc. I am extremely withdrawn in the sense that I need more alone time than almost anyone else I know. Even the 5s I know, go out more often than I do. The amount of alone-time that I need has been problematic and has lead to break-ups and strains on friendships. It's cumbersome, to the point of being a flaw. But I'm not sure if that has anything to do with my tritype. A huge part of the reason I need time to myself is for my creative projects. So, if you think of it that way, it could be perceived as avarice OR gluttony - because I need all that time to indulge my own creativity, or be productive; I need to be working towards a goal in that time; I prefer to lose myself in that fantasy world. It's not really a matter of liking other people or not liking other people; it's more that I really really enjoy my work and my creative passion is my biggest SX connection in a way. There are a lot of aspects of my work that aren't "enjoyable" - like fine editing, long hours in the studio, etc... but I don't love it any less because I love working towards a goal, a lot more than I like socializing.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Maybe said:


> I know I have a lot of connection to 5, but I'm also a 8-core and will have a connection to 5 regardless. When I read Naranjo, I related a lot to 2, and I don't have that for a fix. I know that you also, as a core 5, have a strong connection to 7 which I can even see in you day to day, and obviously that isn't a fix. It was easier for me to see the 7 in you than to even pin down your gut fix right away although I am certain now that youre correctly typed.
> 
> But then let's take me and you. *Some people have pointed out that your personality is more direct & 'to the point' while I am more friendly, upbeat, etc. Is this possible for an 845, as a whole? It could be - my core is different htan yours and I'm an ENFP. But the way my personality 'looks' as a whole seems more 847-tritype.*


Why not?


> That being said, if we break it down into motivation....
> 
> I know I gave you this list before so I should look for it. I'm not denying that I have A LOT of 5 going on, but again, I have that line.
> 
> If you ask me why I do things a lot of it will boil down to core 8, and some even to my 4 fix which is why I am convinced it's my next fix. For instance why did I disintegrate? I lost my voice which was my income & my passion and my ticket to autonomy but also my identity. There's a possibility for 7ness in here too because I did have a god-like, immortal self-image before I lost my voice, *thinking I'd live forever and nothing can stop me.*


That could equally be an 8 thing. 8s also tend to see themselves as invulnerable. 


> It's not enough to be core 7 narcissism, but I did have that feeling that is described for a lot of 'rebellious' teenagers where they think they're above the law and they own the world.


I don't see how this relates to narcissism at all and could again equally be an 8 thing. 


> All of that came crashing down when I lost my voice and I was forced to reckon with being human just like everyone else. I wasnt a rockstar or 'free' anymore.


This could perhaps be more indicative of 7-ness, but only if it also lead to some kind of contempt, resentment or similar that would indicate a line towards 1. I would argue that fixes move in the same direction as our core during times of health and unhealth, but not as discerned. 

On the other hand, it could equally just be an 8 thing you're describing.


> Then, there is the issue of my album (I don't wanna type out the name but you know what it is), and the fact that I couldn't relate more to the description of the 847 tritype being addicted to freedom.


How do you know that's not just an id thing? You could equally argue that it's just an 8 thing. 8 is a detachment type and one way for them to experience a sense of control is desiring freedom.

Furthermore, what do you mean by freedom in this context? One of my most important values is freedom but freedom to me means to not be controlled, to be who I am, freedom to express myself without judgement. This is very different to the freedom 7s desire. 


> All of my freedom-oriented thinking. On the other website someone broke it down in type 8 words: Freedom from being controlled by someone else.





> In essence, this IS what I wanted freedom from and why it was such a compulsive thing - because I didn't want someone else telling me what to do, to the point where I refused monogomous relationship, sharing leases with other people, etc. It became more of a 'chain' than something I could call 'freedom.' So if we are going to break this down into enneagram terms- freedom from being controlled (8 - undeniably the biggest motivator here) , freedom from being stopped from expressing myself or being expected to be someone I'm not (this was HUGE for me and is a big enough motivator that I could actually consider core 4 for a minute), freedom from being deprived of chances if someone better comes along? Yeah, I can't deny that one. Freedom from being overwhelmed by the needs and demands of others? Can't deny that one either. it's huge.


This is the 8 definition of freedom. 




> I could do this all day. I know that when someone asks me questions, about specific situations and why I do things, my strategy does tend to be to withdraw in order to get power and control. This is why I cannot settle for 874, ever; but 854 and 84X are both options. My secondary strategy isnt really 7ish when the shit hits the fan. I do withdraw to try to gain control in situations when I feel out of control; specifically romance, when I feel rejected, etc. But is this also because 8's stress point is 5?


But what about the motivations? How do you relate to greed versus avarice?


> 7's strategies would include gaining admiration of others , and I know that I do enough of this that at one point I thought I could be a 3.


How would you do this and why is this a strategy that is explicit to type 7 and 3? 



> I don't do this on purpose or feel like I need everyone to like me (or hate me, or notice me at all)... I am perfectly fine just having my friends and going unnoticed, but then when I do meet people or I want to talk to them, I'm nice and friendly unlike a 5.


Well, you have the soul child of type 2 and you aren't a 5. With that said, I don't think motivations necessarily appear only through behavior _per se _as such. 


> This is the *biggest* reason I'm considering 7 for the third fix and it keeps gnawing at me no matter how many amazing typers & good friends tell me that I'm 5 fixed because of how I think and strategize. I simply cannot find any motivation or reason to be that friendly within the 845 tritype.


Why not?


> If I ask myself why I do it, the only thing I can come up with is, I'm nice to those who are nice to me/ habit/ I enjoy some people and like being around them so it makes me feel like being this way / I'm reactive/ etc.


Well, all 7s aren't going to be nice and upbeat. I don't think that's a specific 7 trait or unique to 7s. 


> Am I always nice & upbeat ? Obviously not. I can be bitchy, cruel, cold, all of those things - I can also brood & withdraw for long periods kind of like a 4. But what would be my motivation in the first place for being so nice by default..... is it 845ish? Is it 5ish? I don't know. And this is why I give credence to the 'vibe typing' because, it is that friendliness that seems a bit strange for a 845.


Why would a 845 not be friendly? 


> It goes way beyond internet stereotypes, or people just not wanting to let anyone identify with the 'cool' tritype, or some shit like that. When I actually sit down and ask myself WHY am I so friendly? It's... simply put ? Because I enjoy it. I can't come up with anything else. And why would I do that, if my motivations were more fact, knowledge and information based? In that case would I not find 'stupid people' more offensive than 'uncompassionate people?" I dont know..


.

How does this relate better to greed than avarice? 


> Also, if I read my old diary & lifestyle from when I was disintegrated and all of my motives were showing - there was some avarice, but there is TONS of lust, a lot of gluttony with really bad habits and my anti-monogamy ways, and a decent amount of envy but that is a complicated issue that would require too many personal details about other people here and isn't worth it cuz I already know I'm 4-fixed. The lust was beyond apparent. *The gluttony is there though. There are lots of lists and planning for the future, and at that time, although there was a lot of action in the present, I always thought about the future and what I would do once I was done with this semester or school. *


How would you separate this from lust?


> I had long lists of songs I planned to record and the style I planned to record them in - and this is in my diary that I wrote when I was on sleeping pills or drunk or barely awake. My mind immediately went to all my lust & power stuff & the emptiness I filled up with my hunger and thirst and lust and the people I wanted who I couldn't have (8 and 4) and also, TONS of lists of plans. Where does that come from? I wasn't sitting there trying to figure things out all the time, although I did some of that too..... I did sometimes ask myself, WHY do I want this... but more commonly, I just went on to the next thought and the next thought and the next, thinking I'd fix everything with my future plans. That has to mean something.... can it just be Ne?


Why would planning be an example of greed _per se_? Why would making lists be an exampel of greed? You need to remember that 7 is positive outlook. It's not just about making lists and thinking about the future. While it's true that 7s do think about the future any type can think about the future. The important question becomes _why _you think about the future. Is it to escape some kind of pain or fear of being stuck in the present? This is the only thing that separates type 7 motivationally from other types.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Furthermore, 5s aren't considered withdrawn because we like to spend time alone. Certainly, that is one way we are withdrawn but it is not why we are considered a withdrawn type but how we deal with conflict. How does your withdrawn behavior actually relate to avarice?


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Why not?


This, I don't know. Are you friendly to people you're not necessarily close to - and if so, what would be the reasons?



> That could equally be an 8 thing. 8s also tend to see themselves as invulnerable.


Yes.



> I don't see how this relates to narcissism at all and could again equally be an 8 thing.


The reason I say it's more 7ish than 5ish is only because of the impulsivity. Of course, an 8 is still an id type and reactive type, and the most unhealthy 8 boils down to basically, sociopathy.... the only reason you feel guilt or remorse is because you get caught, etc. I do feel like when I was a teenager I did whatever I want but I just was careful not to get caught. I wasn't as impulsive as a lot of other people, and for the most part I did avoid getting caught. Ironically my type 7 friend wasn't even as reckless as I was in some ways, but he was definitely more gluttonous in how he approached his intake whereas I was more 'goal oriented,' 'strategic' and 'conquering.' So yeah, I don't know how to classify my impulsivity enneagram wise.



> This could perhaps be more indicative of 7-ness, but only if it also lead to some kind of contempt, resentment or similar that would indicate a line towards 1. I would argue that fixes move in the same direction as our core during times of health and unhealth, but not as discerned.


^ This is food for thought. Contempt, resentment.....
I resented the whole world because it had taken my voice but disintegration to 1?? I know what it looks like from my father (a 7) and my old friend (7) but I am not sure I can see that specific brand of contempt in myself. Admittedly, I could more easily see a 5 disintegration line to 7, being that I became much more gluttonous during my disintegration.



> On the other hand, it could equally just be an 8 thing you're describing.


Yeah that's why it's hard to untangle.



> How do you know that's not just an id thing? You could equally argue that it's just an 8 thing. 8 is a detachment type and one way for them to experience a sense of control is desiring freedom.
> 
> Furthermore, what do you mean by freedom in this context? One of my most important values is freedom but freedom to me means to not be controlled, to be who I am, freedom to express myself without judgement. This is very different to the freedom 7s desire.


What would you say is the 7's desire for freedom?
What you say about 8s - detachment type, experiencing control through desiring freedom - this is definitely the most pressing issue I faced, hands down... but I am a core 8, so that is going to be the case regardless of head fix.

What do I mean by freedom in this context - hard to break down; it's a whole album I wrote about it ; ) but .... as a kid, my dream was to be 'off the grid,' not to have too many ties with government or landlords - I wanted to buy a mobile home (and I was saving up for it, too, since a very young age - i would have bought it at 17 when I got my license & graduated highschool if I had not gotten sick at 16) ..... I was hoping to travel around in it, with my keyboard, and be able to sing & play at bars on my own. Of course ths was a bit idealistic but I had a bunch of other plans in place to try to make this actually happen. I was trying out for Broadway when I was 16 and got sick, and had a good chance - so I would have worked on broadway for a few years, and tried to record my own album on the side, hopefully make a lot of money and then travel at will. I didn't want to be tied down to the world and its rules at all.



> This is the 8 definition of freedom.


This is why I hate tritype =p
Even though I love it, too.




> But what about the motivations? How do you relate to greed versus avarice?


How I relate to greed vs. avarice - do you mean gluttony vs. avarice?
Gluttony - I don't like to have extra stuff; I like minimalism, but then, in practice, I do have a lot of stuff 'in case I need it.'
Avarice - the fact that I do detach from many things and even if I engage them to some degree, it's easy for me to pinpoint the very few that actually matter to me and that I feel attached to.



> How would you do this and why is this a strategy that is explicit to type 7 and 3?


Hmm.. it probably isn't. I need to figure out *why* I am friendly. That would probably help. I can't figure it out atm. What might help, is if next time I do it, I try to figure out what's going through my head at that moment?? =/ I don't feel that I'm manipulating or doing it for a strategy, or that I NEED to do it, especially because I can just as easily be withdrawn & distanced if I'm in the mood; even towards my good friends but especially towards strangers. I really have *no idea* why. But I think this exact thing is what accounts for the difference between 845 and my "vibe typing" which aims more 847.



> Well, you have the soul child of type 2 and you aren't a 5. With that said, I don't think motivations necessarily appear only through behavior _per se _as such.


Yeah, maybe not. I must know *why* ... 



> Well, all 7s aren't going to be nice and upbeat. I don't think that's a specific 7 trait or unique to 7s.


Both my father AND my 7 friend are similar to me in this regard: all of us can be REALLY friendly and engaged, or extremely self-absorbed, and it entirely depends on mood. I can be two different ways towards the same person within the period of one day. So can my father, and so can my 7 friend. It's not really about being nice & upbeat as much as... the volatility of it all, which rings 7 to me. I know that both 8s and 4s can be volatile as well, so again, this comes down to a tritype issue.



> Why would a 845 not be friendly?


Would you be friendly 'just because?' How would you compare your attitude towards people, in general, to mine? With enneagram terms and without? Also if you can come up with a comparison - could you say *why* you act the way you do?
.


> How does this relate better to greed than avarice?


I am not sure whether it does, but I have noticed that 5s, on the whole, are more annoyed by stupidity and/or incorrect information, rather than lack of compassion. Me, I am much more annoyed/ put off by lack of compassion. If someone is wrong or misguided in the intellectual sense, but they seem kind or seem their heart is in the right place, I am more likely to want to help them rather than be annoyed. But I'll get worked up if someone is shoving wrong information down another person's throat and the other person is being misguided.. I'll feel like the other person is 'innocent' and the wrong-information shover is annoying... but my feelings also depend on everyone's intentions or how I perceive them. This probably has to do with being a core 8 & line to 2 more than anything.



> How would you separate this from lust?


Hmm good question - I think I will go through some diaries from healthier AND unhealthier times and see if I can find examples that are suitable for the public =p If they are unsuitable for forum, I'll at least show you in private, lol.



> Why would planning be an example of greed _per se_? Why would making lists be an exampel of greed? You need to remember that 7 is positive outlook. It's not just about making lists and thinking about the future. While it's true that 7s do think about the future any type can think about the future. The important question becomes _why _you think about the future. Is it to escape some kind of pain or fear of being stuck in the present? This is the only thing that separates type 7 motivationally from other types.


I don't think I have pain or fear about being stuck in the present, actually. But, I do like to escape this 'time period' altogether, through fantasy or fantasizing about times that I find more attractive or romantic; ie sword fights instead of gunfights; firelight instead of electricity, the idea of people living off the land in fantasy, the costumes & outfits I find more appealing that are made out of leather or mideival looking, etc.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Furthermore, 5s aren't considered withdrawn because we like to spend time alone. Certainly, that is one way we are withdrawn but it is not why we are considered a withdrawn type but how we deal with conflict. How does your withdrawn behavior actually relate to avarice?


HmmmMMmmm.

I definitely do the "if I don't like you, I won't show you my cards" approach. I will confront someone, especially if I have respect for them (so, in a way, a confrontation can be taken as a complement) ... but if I am really turned off by someone, they're cut off from knowing what I feel or think about them. The only way they're going to find out is if they continue getting in my way and the best way to get them off my back is to just tell them what I think of them. Otherwise, I'd consider that information to give me more of a 'one-up' and let them sit and wonder what I'm thinking. It gives me more power, because if I put it out there exactly what I'm thinking, the other person can use that against me to get more power. It's sort of a 'gaining control through withdrawal" approach to conflict. I don't tend to think that yelling in someone's face gives me more power, and I don't think I owe anyone an explanation, so in most cases I won't do it. If I intend to keep up communication with someone, or I do have respect for them or we are going to continue interacting, in that case I will let it be known how I think or feel about them, and we will resolve the conflict or else go our separate ways. But that is what I'd do more likely, for someone I respect, rather than someone I just have no intention of interacting with.

That was what I meant by 'gaining power through withdrawal..'

Another example is, in relationships, when I was unhealthy, if the other person had 'power over me' meaning - that I was afraid of losing them or being rejected by them - if I felt threatened or rejected, my response would always be to pull back, make him text me first, make him chase me. This is also gaining power through withdrawal. I had to 'train myself' not to do it, because it is a stupid power game and I don't think it leads to love or resolution or honest communication; but it's hard for me to snap myself out of this impulse to pull back when I feel rejected.

As for how this relates to avarice, I am not sure - what do you think? 

I don't see it relating to gluttony, but I am not sure what that means.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Maybe said:


> This, I don't know. Are you friendly to people you're not necessarily close to - and if so, what would be the reasons?


A better way to phrase it would be, why would I not be friendly to people I don't know or I'm not close to? I'm not trying to be grumpy or anything to people because it's something I enjoy, but it happens as a reaction of something they say, do or represent through their actions. A lot of people who meet me for the first time tend to get the impression of me in fact being very considerate and nice. 


> The reason I say it's more 7ish than 5ish is only because of the impulsivity. Of course, an 8 is still an id type and reactive type, and the most unhealthy 8 boils down to basically, sociopathy.... the only reason you feel guilt or remorse is because you get caught, etc. I do feel like when I was a teenager I did whatever I want but I just was careful not to get caught. I wasn't as impulsive as a lot of other people, and for the most part I did avoid getting caught. Ironically my type 7 friend wasn't even as reckless as I was in some ways, but he was definitely more gluttonous in how he approached his intake whereas I was more 'goal oriented,' 'strategic' and 'conquering.' So yeah, I don't know how to classify my impulsivity enneagram wise.


Well, not every 7 is going to be reckless. As you express yourself, you're goal-oriented, strategic and conquering. That implies 8, not 7.


> ^ This is food for thought. Contempt, resentment.....
> I resented the whole world because it had taken my voice but disintegration to 1?? I know what it looks like from my father (a 7) and my old friend (7) but I am not sure I can see that specific brand of contempt in myself. Admittedly, I could more easily see a 5 disintegration line to 7, being that I became much more gluttonous during my disintegration.


How so? 


> What would you say is the 7's desire for freedom?
> What you say about 8s - detachment type, experiencing control through desiring freedom - this is definitely the most pressing issue I faced, hands down... but I am a core 8, so that is going to be the case regardless of head fix.


For me, in a specific enneagram context outside and unrelated to how individuals would understand freedom would be that 7s desire freedom from pain. Their core fear is about being stuck and being in pain and freedom to them means an escape from this pain.


> What do I mean by freedom in this context - hard to break down; it's a whole album I wrote about it ; ) but .... as a kid, my dream was to be 'off the grid,' not to have too many ties with government or landlords - I wanted to buy a mobile home (and I was saving up for it, too, since a very young age - i would have bought it at 17 when I got my license & graduated highschool if I had not gotten sick at 16) ..... I was hoping to travel around in it, with my keyboard, and be able to sing & play at bars on my own. Of course ths was a bit idealistic but I had a bunch of other plans in place to try to make this actually happen. I was trying out for Broadway when I was 16 and got sick, and had a good chance - so I would have worked on broadway for a few years, and tried to record my own album on the side, hopefully make a lot of money and then travel at will. I didn't want to be tied down to the world and its rules at all.


What I get from this is a desire for independence. Why did you want to be independent? 


> How I relate to greed vs. avarice - do you mean gluttony vs. avarice?
> Gluttony - I don't like to have extra stuff; I like minimalism, but then, in practice, I do have a lot of stuff 'in case I need it.'
> Avarice - the fact that I do detach from many things and even if I engage them to some degree, it's easy for me to pinpoint the very few that actually matter to me and that I feel attached to.


Yes, greed=gluttony. I don't think 7s necessarily have a "in case I might need it" approach either though. It comes back to the idea why they need it. Is it to escape fear? 



> Hmm.. it probably isn't. I need to figure out *why* I am friendly. That would probably help. I can't figure it out atm. What might help, is if next time I do it, I try to figure out what's going through my head at that moment?? =/ I don't feel that I'm manipulating or doing it for a strategy, or that I NEED to do it, especially because I can just as easily be withdrawn & distanced if I'm in the mood; even towards my good friends but especially towards strangers. I really have *no idea* why. But I think this exact thing is what accounts for the difference between 845 and my "vibe typing" which aims more 847.


Well, 7s aren't friendly by default. To me this sounds more like your 2 soul child really showing. If anything I think 2 is the type that is likely, along with type 1, 6 and 9, for various reasons, to want or desire to appear as friendly or simply appear as friendly as a way for them to cope. 


> Yeah, maybe not. I must know *why* ...


 Why is it important to know? 


> Both my father AND my 7 friend are similar to me in this regard: all of us can be REALLY friendly and engaged, or extremely self-absorbed, and it entirely depends on mood. I can be two different ways towards the same person within the period of one day. So can my father, and so can my 7 friend. It's not really about being nice & upbeat as much as... the volatility of it all, which rings 7 to me. I know that both 8s and 4s can be volatile as well, so again, this comes down to a tritype issue.


How would you separate this volatility from type 8?


> Would you be friendly 'just because?' How would you compare your attitude towards people, in general, to mine? With enneagram terms and without? Also if you can come up with a comparison - could you say *why* you act the way you do?


I act the way I do because logically I see no reason to act otherwise. And as a whole, I don't think your attitude towards people is that much different to mine. You also just happened to be an extrovert which I'm not. I ultimately come from the position that people drain me, and that their demands on my time and their expectations put on me take something away from me and it is something I must guard against. 

With that said, I try to be accomodating but there is a certain point where I do not want to be around people anymore and that's just that.


> I am not sure whether it does, but I have noticed that 5s, on the whole, are more annoyed by stupidity and/or incorrect information, rather than lack of compassion. Me, I am much more annoyed/ put off by lack of compassion. If someone is wrong or misguided in the intellectual sense, but they seem kind or seem their heart is in the right place, I am more likely to want to help them rather than be annoyed. But I'll get worked up if someone is shoving wrong information down another person's throat and the other person is being misguided.. I'll feel like the other person is 'innocent' and the wrong-information shover is annoying... but my feelings also depend on everyone's intentions or how I perceive them. This probably has to do with being a core 8 & line to 2 more than anything.


Yes, this does a lot more like just your connection towards 2 whereas for 5s probably has to do with lust.


> Hmm good question - I think I will go through some diaries from healthier AND unhealthier times and see if I can find examples that are suitable for the public =p If they are unsuitable for forum, I'll at least show you in private, lol.


All right.


> I don't think I have pain or fear about being stuck in the present, actually. But, I do like to escape this 'time period' altogether, through fantasy or fantasizing about times that I find more attractive or romantic; ie sword fights instead of gunfights; firelight instead of electricity, the idea of people living off the land in fantasy, the costumes & outfits I find more appealing that are made out of leather or mideival looking, etc.


This is anything sounds very 4-ish. 4s want to present themselves or imagine themselves in situations or as people they are not out of envy. 7s being inherent narcissists don't need that. Why would they imagine being something else? They already know they are awesome, so why the need to pretend even if just in your imagination?


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

LeaT said:


> A better way to phrase it would be, why would I not be friendly to people I don't know or I'm not close to? I'm not trying to be grumpy or anything to people because it's something I enjoy, but it happens as a reaction of something they say, do or represent through their actions. A lot of people who meet me for the first time tend to get the impression of me in fact being very considerate and nice.


I think you were nice to me, always.
I guess I relate to this. My friendliness, for whatever it's worth, is not an act to get people to like me, as far as I can tell. It's more like "my default state", as far as I know. So if people get that impression, they may be reacting to the fact that I'm in a good enough mood to talk to anyone in the first place in the situations where I'm being friendly. In real life people have reported that they find me more unapproachable or intimidating, probably because when I'm online I'm in the mood for it, whereas when I'm out, I might be out for another reason without wanting to socialize, and yet, people expect me to want this?



> Well, not every 7 is going to be reckless. As you express yourself, you're goal-oriented, strategic and conquering. That implies 8, not 7.


Yes. I was somewhat reckless when unhealthy, but not quite like my friends. Even if on the whole, I did more 'bad stuff' than my friends, I did it more responsibly.



> How so?


This was a reference to my 'gluttony' during disintegration and I am mostly referring to sex and substance abuse. =(



> For me, in a specific enneagram context outside and unrelated to how individuals would understand freedom would be that 7s desire freedom from pain. Their core fear is about being stuck and being in pain and freedom to them means an escape from this pain.


Yeah.. this is hard for me to grasp because in some senses I enjoy pain. I need to figure out what pain means to me; what sort of pain I would aim to avoid, or would not enjoy. Because, if there are people who are 4-fixed and find something to love about their misery, but the same people are also 7-fixed, there must be a conflict of sorts. Where would I draw the line between 'good pain' and 'bad pain?' I tend to want EVERYTHING, the whole truth - I don't want to avoid the parts I don't like. But if that is the case why was it so hard for me to accept my enneagram core? It was painful in some way... and I ran from it. But I didn't exactly try to escape it. It gnawed away at me until the truth came to light, so to speak.



> What I get from this is a desire for independence. Why did you want to be independent?


Why: because the idea of someone else having control over me almost feels like... why even be alive....? ... this probably dates back to my childhood when I was in 'control wars' with my father... ever since I was very young, I was determined never to be controlled. I never had a basic fear of 'deprivation' because I was given all of the material things and attention that I needed, if not way more than I needed... but some attempts were made to have control over me and overpower me, and this became my fixation.... I could not allow this to happen because it made me feel powerless, almost sub-human, like a slave. Why why... I don't know. Why I couldn't just be slave to someone who gave me whatever I want in material? I don't know. It is a compulsion. It is a good question though.... 



> Yes, greed=gluttony. I don't think 7s necessarily have a "in case I might need it" approach either though. It comes back to the idea why they need it. Is it to escape fear?


Hmm. I don't think so. It is more pragmatic: for instance my voice comes and goes and I can't always book studio time last minute, and I cant predict it. So I need to have a studio-quality mic, recording gear, etc. so that I can 'catch it' when it's working. If I can't catch it when it's working, then more time passes and more money is wasted on time I spent in the studio for mixing & recording other instruments, because if the album doesn't get done, that money goes down the tubes, and my dreams don't get realized, and so forth.



> Well, 7s aren't friendly by default. To me this sounds more like your 2 soul child really showing. If anything I think 2 is the type that is likely, along with type 1, 6 and 9, for various reasons, to want or desire to appear as friendly or simply appear as friendly as a way for them to cope.


Yeah, I feel a little uncomfortable with the "desire to appear as friendly" because I really don't think it's a desire to appear as such., as much as, it's just the way I appear. I think it's actually pretty sexy to be a dark , mysterious brooder - but I don't feel driven to 'pretend to be one' unless I am actng/ on stage/ playing that role for stage or music purposes. I can be like that sometimes, and I don't stop myself if I feel this way; so I don't know if I have a desire to 'appear' as something as much as, I just seem to vacillate in mood. I know that every human being must be self-conscious and aware of how they appear and I'm not denying that I am very sensitive to rejection, but my strategy to cope with it is more along the lines of "I am who I am, take it or leave it" rather than trying to please. But I have no reason *not* to be nice & friendly unless people give me a reason.... much like you said at the top here. ^ If anything I think that being friendly gives me more power rather than less, so if I thought about it strategically, I wouldn't change it.



> Why is it important to know?


For the sake of figuring out my head fix.



> How would you separate this volatility from type 8?


Not sure if I can. =/



> I act the way I do because logically I see no reason to act otherwise. And as a whole, I don't think your attitude towards people is that much different to mine. You also just happened to be an extrovert which I'm not. I ultimately come from the position that people drain me, and that their demands on my time and their expectations put on me take something away from me and it is something I must guard against.


Yeah, I can have this sentiment as well, which I suppose is the essence of 5.



> With that said, I try to be accomodating but there is a certain point where I do not want to be around people anymore and that's just that.


Same.



> Yes, this does a lot more like just your connection towards 2 whereas for 5s probably has to do with lust.


Yup makes sense.



> This is anything sounds very 4-ish. 4s want to present themselves or imagine themselves in situations or as people they are not out of envy. 7s being inherent narcissists don't need that. Why would they imagine being something else? They already know they are awesome, so why the need to pretend even if just in your imagination?


Haha, good question. I should ask my 7 friend - he's into fantasy too.  
But this is a good point - I spend * a lot * of time in my imagination, though that time is spent *using* my imagination to create a product, and/or watching movies/reading... not just kind of 'sitting there with my imagination,' for whatever that's worth. I do love to take walks though, listening to music, and letting my imagination run wild.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Maybe said:


> I think you were nice to me, always.


I'm nice to those I think are worthy being nice to. 


> I guess I relate to this. My friendliness, for whatever it's worth, is not an act to get people to like me, as far as I can tell. It's more like "my default state", as far as I know. So if people get that impression, they may be reacting to the fact that I'm in a good enough mood to talk to anyone in the first place in the situations where I'm being friendly. In real life people have reported that they find me more unapproachable or intimidating, probably because when I'm online I'm in the mood for it, whereas when I'm out, I might be out for another reason without wanting to socialize, and yet, people expect me to want this?


Well obviously that is going to affect things a lot and how people understand you online particularly. So how does that relate to 7?


> Yes. I was somewhat reckless when unhealthy, but not quite like my friends. Even if on the whole, I did more 'bad stuff' than my friends, I did it more responsibly.


Same here. How does this relate to 7?


> This was a reference to my 'gluttony' during disintegration and I am mostly referring to sex and substance abuse. =(


How is this an example of gluttony rather than lust?


> Yeah.. this is hard for me to grasp because in some senses I enjoy pain. I need to figure out what pain means to me; what sort of pain I would aim to avoid, or would not enjoy. Because, if there are people who are 4-fixed and find something to love about their misery, but the same people are also 7-fixed, there must be a conflict of sorts. Where would I draw the line between 'good pain' and 'bad pain?' I tend to want EVERYTHING, the whole truth - I don't want to avoid the parts I don't like. But if that is the case why was it so hard for me to accept my enneagram core? It was painful in some way... and I ran from it. But I didn't exactly try to escape it. It gnawed away at me until the truth came to light, so to speak.


Well, I'm not a 7 so I can't entirely speak for how I think they might experience the sense of feeling stuck, but I think it has less to do with a feeling of feeling stuck with emotions as much as I think it has to do with progress. 7s need things to happen, this is why they constantly jump between this and that. Staying too long and there's a risk you get hurt. In a way it's kind of like a way to deal with attachment. Attach but not too much. 

What you are writing here, running away from inability to accept one's core, I don't think that's specific to type 7 or even positive outlook. Self-awareness can be painful for anyone.


> Hmm. I don't think so. It is more pragmatic: for instance my voice comes and goes and I can't always book studio time last minute, and I cant predict it. So I need to have a studio-quality mic, recording gear, etc. so that I can 'catch it' when it's working. If I can't catch it when it's working, then more time passes and more money is wasted on time I spent in the studio for mixing & recording other instruments, because if the album doesn't get done, that money goes down the tubes, and my dreams don't get realized, and so forth.


Yes, so it's goal-oriented. It has a reason and purpose with the idea of ultimately creating a product or to produce. That's gut logic.


> Yeah, I feel a little uncomfortable with the "desire to appear as friendly" because I really don't think it's a desire to appear as such., as much as, it's just the way I appear. I think it's actually pretty sexy to be a dark , mysterious brooder - but I don't feel driven to 'pretend to be one' unless I am actng/ on stage/ playing that role for stage or music purposes. I can be like that sometimes, and I don't stop myself if I feel this way; so I don't know if I have a desire to 'appear' as something as much as, I just seem to vacillate in mood. I know that every human being must be self-conscious and aware of how they appear and I'm not denying that I am very sensitive to rejection, but my strategy to cope with it is more along the lines of "I am who I am, take it or leave it" rather than trying to please. But I have no reason *not* to be nice & friendly unless people give me a reason.... much like you said at the top here. ^ If anything I think that being friendly gives me more power rather than less, so if I thought about it strategically, I wouldn't change it.


So friendliness thus got little to do with 7-ness.


> For the sake of figuring out my head fix.


And why is that important? Why is figuring something out important at all?


> Yeah, I can have this sentiment as well, which I suppose is the essence of 5.


Do you think that speaks more for avarice than gluttony?


> Haha, good question. I should ask my 7 friend - he's into fantasy too.
> But this is a good point - I spend * a lot * of time in my imagination, though that time is spent *using* my imagination to create a product, and/or watching movies/reading... not just kind of 'sitting there with my imagination,' for whatever that's worth. I do love to take walks though, listening to music, and letting my imagination run wild.


I think 7s can also have a wild imagination but their imagination is different. It's about plans and achievements, realiztions, what they want to do and what they want to have. I want a pizza now. Let's order pizza. I want to go to a party. Why is there no good party in town? The inability to have what they want causes frustration which is why 7 is a frustration type.


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## Feathers Falling (Sep 5, 2012)

Maybe said:


> Yeah - I spend a lot of time alone, but I'm still not sure if that's enough to qualify as "withdrawn" because during that time, I'm "doing" rather than "researching" if that makes sense? Or, I'm posting on PerC and during that time I'm friendly & impulsive as I described.
> 
> I have decent reason to have strongly considered 5 fix, but I didn't really emphasize it here - I'll probably write that out soon, but I'm having trouble untangling whether that's just my line to 5/ disintegration or an actual fix. I have trouble with detachment when I'm disintegrated, but the rest of the time, my impulsivity & reactivity probably gets me in trouble more often than my detachment - as you know all too well, lol  - as long as I'm not super unhealthy.


I may be a hyper 7 in my enthusiasm, but I'm usually a calm person most of the time IRL. I get excited about things for sure. But I'm not exactly bouncing off the walls all the time either haha.. ^_^

I think it's more of an ENFP thing, and the fact that my last two fixes are both withdrawn types, but I love/need my alone time, and I can be very happy with it. For instance, for the last several months I've been all about reading into enneagram and these forums... I don't spend a lot of time outside hanging out with friends or partying at the moment.. I just kind of do whatever is really interesting to me at the time  And for some reason right now it's sitting down and lurking personality typing forums all day haha. 

Hope this helps ^_^


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## Feathers Falling (Sep 5, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Do you think that speaks more for avarice than gluttony?
> I think 7s can also have a wild imagination but their imagination is different. It's about plans and achievements, realiztions, what they want to do and what they want to have. I want a pizza now. Let's order pizza. I want to go to a party. Why is there no good party in town? The inability to have what they want causes frustration which is why 7 is a frustration type.


LOL. This is so true. Sadly :/


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

cata.lyst.rawr said:


> LOL. This is so true. Sadly :/


Why sadly?


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## Feathers Falling (Sep 5, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Why sadly?


It sounds pretty shallow..


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

cata.lyst.rawr said:


> It sounds pretty shallow..


Why is it shallow?


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## Feathers Falling (Sep 5, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Why is it shallow?


Hmm.. good question. I guess it's not shallow.. I think it's fine, and I don't think I'm shallow. It just appears to be that way. I'd rather not look shallow in other people's eyes I suppose. It's not so much a problem... I usually express my childish, simple desires anyways ^_^ Buuut.. sometimes I know I look like I don't have much substance... when I would like others to know that I do, like I know that I do. I think this is where 7s can sometimes get into needing to prove themselves. 

Or is that a 7 thing, needing to prove yourself? I guess maybe it's more of an ENFP insecurity thing... I'm not sure


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## Feathers Falling (Sep 5, 2012)

@_LeaT_ Also, can you help me with something? I've been kind of coming to a realization lately... You seem very knowledgeable and helpful around the forum, so I figured I would ask here instead of searching for or making a thread




> 7) Sevens use *rationalization* to avoid *suffering* and to maintain a self image of being *OK*. Rationalization is a way of staying in the head, explaining away or justifying things in order to distance from painful feelings and refuse to take responsibility for their behavior. Everything can be re-framed towards the positive. Their ability to think of new options and possibilities allows Sevens to leave the present moment with its limitations and live in a seemingly unlimited future


This is very, very true. I've always been able to get myself out of ruts in life because I can always see the bright side of things. Well.. it's more like a compulsion to see the bright side of things and ignore the bad things.. it's helped me get out of a lot of bad situations in the past. As a child I would have never thought I was unhappy, but I did have a few hardships as a kid. I remember rarely crying though... for example my house caught on fire and burned down when I was 11 years old. I didn't cry.. I went inside the burned building with my dad after the fire was put out... he walked around devastated... but I pointed out how this thing looked cool all blackened and charred.. I didn't know how to handle it otherwise. I guess I wanted to be strong for my father? I wanted to show him I didn't hurt, because seeing him in pain (he's a 9) was probably worse for me than my house burning down... After that day I only cried a few times, and wouldn't admit sadness. I really believed for a long time that I didn't have any sadness as a kid. Looking back, I just ran away from it. 

Although... I'm not really sure how unhealthy of a mechanism that is. In the end, I actually was pretty happy as a kid. I don't have any bitter feelings from the past... I don't have some repressed anger or loss because of the house fires... I let it all go :/ I may have not dealt with it in the healthiest way, but I think all in all I was pretty happy as a kid, and now I'm a pretty happy adult. 



Anyways, that's just an example and background info. I dunno if you've glanced over my posts lately but I've been really active on the forum. I've been doing a lot of "realizations" lately because of someone that hurt me last year. I went down to the unhealthiest levels of 7... actually I was just there in January. Until my ass was kicked out of it. Then I latched on to the bright side of things again... All of the positives and none of the negatives. I looked back at all of his actions that had soooooooo very much hurt me before, but I "rationalized" everything... I had to... I was super active into self-reflection, acceptance, and improvement. There's not enough room for me to consider all of the bad things that he did to me. And my memory is terrible so it's easy for me to forget haha. ;^^ I just understand him more now. It's all acceptance and forgiveness. No, I don't think it was right, but it was unhealthy, and I was unhealthy at that time, too. I just hold on to everything good that came out of the situation, and will come out of the situation. There's a lot more room for growth. 

But is it unhealthy? Am I falling into the unhealthiness of the 7s defense mechanisms; re-framing and rationalization? Or is it beneficial to me now? I feel like I've grown exponentially and have gained much more self-awareness and self-control.. but today I realized I might not be as healthy as I thought yet. Is it unhealthy for me to use rationalization? I don't think it's ... I dunno it might be keeping some scarier feelings at bay... I'm actually currently trying to help the same person that hurt me understand more about himself and hopefully grow and let his own fears stop controlling him... if he did that, then 1) he would be happier himself, and 2) we might have a chance of making it work some day. 

But when I think about it not working out... I get sad. Is that the telltale sign of me idealizing the situation? Is it bad for me to idealize?

To a 7, optimism is our defense against the world. It keeps us going and it keeps us fighting in a rather cruel world... but when does it become a bad thing?

What happens if things don't go the way I hope they do with this person? Will I feel sadness? Will I be able to conquer that sadness? Will I not be in control of myself, like before? Are these new levels of 7 healthiness that I've experienced permanent/maintainable? Will I ever lose myself as much as I did last year? Will I ever be back at those lowest levels? Will I be able to handle it if I do? If I get sad about it not working out, will I be able to handle that sadness? Or will I feel like all of that optimism was for nothing? No, I wouldn't. I would always appreciate the experience. And I would naturally gather all of the optimism from it not working out and get over it, I think. 

But that possibility of sadness in the future... ugh. hmmph.

I feel like 7s are just kids who get miffed when they can't get what they want.



Really though if you don't know about 7s or whatever, you don't have to answer  I just like to write all this stuff out so I can understand it better myself.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

@cata.lyst.rawr Without knowing the exact details of what happened it's very difficult to come to any kind of understand or conclusion at all.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

cata.lyst.rawr said:


> Hmm.. good question. I guess it's not shallow.. I think it's fine, and I don't think I'm shallow. It just appears to be that way. I'd rather not look shallow in other people's eyes I suppose. It's not so much a problem... I usually express my childish, simple desires anyways ^_^ Buuut.. sometimes I know I look like I don't have much substance... when I would like others to know that I do, like I know that I do. I think this is where 7s can sometimes get into needing to prove themselves.
> 
> Or is that a 7 thing, needing to prove yourself? I guess maybe it's more of an ENFP insecurity thing... I'm not sure


It sounds part an issue being an extrovert realizing you are one, and by that I mean extrovert in a Jungian sense. I don't think it's unique to 7s to want to feel validated, all humans do. The question is what coping mechanism we fall back to when attempting to achieve it.


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## Feathers Falling (Sep 5, 2012)

Yeah that whole thing was a bit vague.. I was talking it out for myself I suppose.. I think from all that I gathered, I just have to be aware of my rationalization and not avoid the actual bad truths about things. Otherwise, I love my rarely-ending enthusiasm :kitteh: I don't think it's unhealthy for me right now. We'll see 





LeaT said:


> It sounds part an issue being an extrovert realizing you are one, and by that I mean extrovert in a Jungian sense. I don't think it's unique to 7s to want to feel validated, all humans do. The question is what coping mechanism we fall back to when attempting to achieve it.


And yeah you're right, I feel it's on the Jungian side of the house, too. I can certainly say I struggled with the insecurity of needing validation until I settled down recently. Being a happy-go-lucky 7 isn't always looked at the best from more serious and judgmental people, but I have a lot more control over myself and how I present myself to others, so it's not much of an issue anymore.  Lots of self acceptance in there, too <3


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@_cata.lyst.rawr_

Thank you so much for sharing ^

To answer your question, I don't necessarily think it's unhealthy - but of course, this is just my opinion. I don't think any coping mechanism is unhealthy in and of itself, but it's a matter of how far we take it, and whether it gets us closer to our goals or our growth, or holds us back from it.

For instance, I have written in my diaries when I was unhealthy, "Lust is the root and route of all evil." I used to write that on my photographs. The more unhealthy I got, and the more that lust was the driving force of my life (and I don't mean sexual lust alone, I mean all of it.. the conquering, consuming, destroying, excess, addiction, etc.) .... I thought I wanted to learn non-attachment or Buddhism so I could get away from it and have no desire whatsoever. But then the more I thought about it, I would rather die than live a life without desire. That might work for some but for me, I would lose everything of myself if I gave up desire & lust. I wouldn't do my music or writing, I wouldn't make love the way I do, I wouldn't write the passionate posts that I do, I wouldn't chase my enneagram type, I wouldn't need to penetrate every corner of enneagram and know more and more and more about it... I wouldn't do, and I wouldn't chase, and I wouldn't consume, and I wouldn't feel so alive.

So for me, it's not really about getting rid of lust, although in studying Buddhism I did see that there are ways to get rid of it, and it IS a choice. Of course it doesn't feel like a choice to me - it feels like 'just the way I am' - but I see it as a choice because I saw a way out and still, I *choose* lust. I choose myself rather than becoming something else.

So at that point it's a matter of dealing with it, tempering it. Making that lust serve me so that I am its master, rather than letting myself be enslaved by it. It's not easy because my lust is a powerful force, but I wrote on facebook right before I joined PerC, "Life is a constant battle between my desire and my will... but my will shall prevail."

(And just to think, I was typed at 5 at the time, LMAO) 

But it is true. I have to have enough confidence in my will, my own strength, to know that I can *master* lust and use it to serve me. Of course, it's not really lust if it isn't this powerful force that kind of "drives me" but... I have seen that it's a two-sided coin. If it leads me to places I want to go, and it can exist side by side with my innocence like we talked about, then it's more "honesty" rather than a thing that is necessarily ''bad."

I think the ability - or compulsion - to shut off pain, can also be a good thing or a bad thing. I admire the hell out of people who can just forge forward the way that you did. (I have a lot of this quality as well but it manifests differently. For me it's about not giving up, forging forward with my goals; but not so much about avoiding pain; more about triumph and never backing down despite the obstacles.) I don't think I would have handled the fire as well as you did, though - I would have totally collapsed and been depressed. Then my father would have been depressed cuz he had to deal with me (if he were your father, that is. My own father is a 7, and nothing phases him. He has huffy fits and then gets over it).

So is it 'bad' - no. Is it bad if it starts to take you over, if IT controls you instead of YOU controlling IT? That probably would be the case - cuz at that point you'd be enslaved by your need to run away from pain which is what leads to gluttony, I suppose - and can lead to just filling the space with more and more crap while you run away from yourself. Again, I can relate to this but in a different way. My excesses got out of control after I lost my voice. I still stayed focused and wasn't depressed or anything during the illness when I was almost dying - I was focused on recovering, being able to walk again, getting through school. But once I was able to function properly and all of the pain started to catch up to me, and the anger and frustration that I was not getting my voice back at all, that I'd lost my career that I worked so hard for, that I felt like I had no identity anymore, and there was nothing I could do in this world that counts, that matters, that means anything to me or to anyone else.... (and then I lost my first boyfriend too)... I started conquering, lusting, and chasing and consuming... the excesses started to kick in. I started trying to gain control over my body in any way I could - dying my hair pink, mild anorexia and working out a lot (I never thought I was fat - I blatantly even admitted that I just did it to get control) ... taking lots of nude photos with stuff , blood all over me to express my feelings about my destruction, etc. I tried to control my mind and my emotions by taking substances and re-wiring myself, forcing myself not to have any feelings, not to be weak, not to let anyone have power over me or make me vulnerable. I never stopped working hard in school though. And I felt like I was doing these addictive things responsibly because I did my work, got straight As, kept my job and went to class sober. So I also rationalized, saying it was fine because I had my eye on a prize (aside from my conquests; that prize being school).... and that was fine until my excesses lead to me being kicked out of school despite my excellent academic performance. Then I was left to face myself once again, and figure out what was really important. My lust for control, power, and excess had controlled me, and was no longer 'at my service' but rather was my slave driver, and I had to change. The way to do it was to figure out what was important to me - doing lots and lots of creative work and just cutting myself off from carnal pleasures & substances, basically locking myself in my room at my new college for almost a year... shutting out the world and putting all my emotions into my work - which was art school the second year, conveniently, so I got to express myself a lot. Also another coping mechanism was working on the novel which I picked up again now; and reading Harry Potter & seeing LOTR over and over when it first came out in the theater; just disappearing into any fantasy world that was better than "here" and could make me feel like there was a reason to be in this world besides just fucking and conquering.. there was beauty, there was fantasy, there was self-expression, there was intellect. It became a back and forth battle, where I realized that the way to let my lust 'serve' me was really by way of my innocence... and my innocence is in my passion for fantasy and music and writing. So the bond between lust and innocence simply came from directing that lust drive towards my creative work (painful as it is because I have to dig up my own pain in order to express myself) and to express myself, to do what I love, to be who I have always been since I was a little kid: creative. It's not that I wasn't creative during the time when I was unhealthy - I certainly was - but I started focusing on bigger, harder, long term projects which provided their own adversity and hardships, so that I had something to triumph over besides 'controlling my emotions' or falling for a guy and getting power over him. Then my lust started to serve *me* because now, I'm drawn to keep working and working and I'm loving every minute of it. (well that's how it was for years anyway until I also lost a lot of those possibilities and then felt like collapsing into chasing again, and instead joined PerC.)

So in the end what I'm really saying is- if your passions & vices can be used as assets (which I think all of them can because there are two sides to every coin)... then it's not "bad" but rather, beautiful, or dare I say, it's a triumph over the adversity inside yourself. =p


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## Feathers Falling (Sep 5, 2012)

@Maybe, this was an incredibly inspiring and well-written post. Thank you so much. You really did hit on everything I was wondering, and I didn't think that was possible since I was being so vague. We really do connect on many levels. It's so interesting to see how you pushed through the hardships in your life using a much different drive than I have... yet I feel it's so similar in so many ways. 

I've wondered recently if I should curb my enthusiasm for life and everything I do. Maybe it's unhealthy.. maybe living in the world more grounded would be a better idea. But after reading this... there's no way I could be happy suppressing my enthusiasm. It is me, it's so much about me, it's what makes me want to learn about myself and challenge myself and push myself to be a better person every day. I have a gift that few other people have. I have the ability to see positive in everything and everyone, even at the worst of times. Instead of letting it control me, I have to control it. And I am doing that now. I'm using my optimism to make positive changes in my life and others' lives, and I'm no longer running from pain, sadness, or hardships. It no longer controls me to such an unhealthy level to where I use it to escape my pain and rationalize my irresponsibility. I take full responsibility for all of my actions now. I think that's the true indicator that I'm not willingly letting it control me. I'm tempering it in to something amazing, something I can use to help the world be a little better of a place. <3


God I love how intense we are xD

Reading through all of your posts and your stories, I absolutely love the intensity and passion. <3



On a random note:

I went to a couple friends' bday/going away party tonight. You know what I did? I stayed sober. I didn't feel tempted to drink or do drugs. I wasn't envious. I didn't want. I felt in control. I felt fully satisfied. I felt no longing. I didn't feel like I was missing out. I talked friends out of making *ahem* stupid decisions (drugs). I felt responsible. I came home after the party and cooked some dinner. Settled down and checked PerC. And I'm so calm and happy, vs if I had actually wanted and been gluttonous and made bad decisions.

IT'S SO WEIIIIRRD. I feel like an adult :kitteh:


On another slightly related note:

I've always hated drinking alcohol because I HATE HANGOVERS hahaha. They're too painful ^_^ I hate feeling sick. I never understood how people can deal with them. At least I know I'll never be an alcoholic lol. Thank you, 7!!

Drug addictions are another story though haha ;^_^ But not an issue anymore


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

cata.lyst.rawr said:


> @_Maybe_, this was an incredibly inspiring and well-written post. Thank you so much. You really did hit on everything I was wondering, and I didn't think that was possible since I was being so vague. We really do connect on many levels. It's so interesting to see how you pushed through the hardships in your life using a much different drive than I have... yet I feel it's so similar in so many ways.
> 
> I've wondered recently if I should curb my enthusiasm for life and everything I do. Maybe it's unhealthy.. maybe living in the world more grounded would be a better idea. But after reading this... there's no way I could be happy suppressing my enthusiasm. It is me, it's so much about me, it's what makes me want to learn about myself and challenge myself and push myself to be a better person every day. I have a gift that few other people have. I have the ability to see positive in everything and everyone, even at the worst of times. Instead of letting it control me, I have to control it. And I am doing that now. I'm using my optimism to make positive changes in my life and others' lives, and I'm no longer running from pain, sadness, or hardships. It no longer controls me to such an unhealthy level to where I use it to escape my pain and rationalize my irresponsibility. I take full responsibility for all of my actions now. I think that's the true indicator that I'm not willingly letting it control me. I'm tempering it in to something amazing, something I can use to help the world be a little better of a place. <3


Beautiful =D



> God I love how intense we are xD
> 
> Reading through all of your posts and your stories, I absolutely love the intensity and passion. <3


You are so sweet & awesome & intense yourself.. and I also love reading yours. <3



> On a random note:
> 
> I went to a couple friends' bday/going away party tonight. You know what I did? I stayed sober. I didn't feel tempted to drink or do drugs. I wasn't envious. I didn't want. I felt in control. I felt fully satisfied. I felt no longing. I didn't feel like I was missing out. I talked friends out of making *ahem* stupid decisions (drugs). I felt responsible. I came home after the party and cooked some dinner. Settled down and checked PerC. And I'm so calm and happy, vs if I had actually wanted and been gluttonous and made bad decisions.
> 
> IT'S SO WEIIIIRRD. I feel like an adult :kitteh:


!!!! I went through this too. It's amazing how much *better* life is, overall, when you're sober. When I would do drugs or drink regularly, it took so much more for me to feel anything when I was sober. But now, I feel every little thing... it's almost like my natural brain chemistry became its own drug... =p




> On another slightly related note:
> 
> I've always hated drinking alcohol because I HATE HANGOVERS hahaha. They're too painful ^_^ I hate feeling sick. I never understood how people can deal with them. At least I know I'll never be an alcoholic lol. Thank you, 7!!
> 
> Drug addictions are another story though haha ;^_^ But not an issue anymore


I hear you. That's also why I didn't stick with pot for long (hurt my throat) or alcohol for that long (hated hangovers) or even other drugs that had side effects I didn't like. The drugs that I liked, and didn't leave me feeling worse, well, that's a whole other story....


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Hey everyone - thanks so much for the input - I'm settled on 7w6 fix. Next pursuit: Wing for my core type, then socionics.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Maybe said:


> Hey everyone - thanks so much for the input - I'm settled on 7w6 fix. Next pursuit: Wing for my core type, then socionics.


Why? Based on what reasoning?


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Why? Based on what reasoning?


Mostly the nature of my escapism. Fantasy might look like a pragmatic thing, like "one day I'll earn money!" but I've been doing it since I was small and it is a compulsive defense strategy. I also relate a lot to what @_cata.lyst.rawr_ writes about walking away from the fire... it's not that I'd be trying to look at the positive side in the midst of things - I'd be sorting things out, thinking about what needs to be done, etc... but I have walked away from pretty shitty situations with a similar attitude, like I got bedbugs in my apartment, and after taking care of everything that needed to be taken care of, I had to get rid of a lot of my stuff and thought "Well it's good because I had too much stuff." And I kind of fell into planning all the details of how I would get out. And I just went on to the next thing and the next, and had no real emotions about having to leave the city until much later when I was talking to someone else who stayed in the city and was pursuing their dreams, and then I processed my feelings about leaving this whole life and this apartment that I built rooms in, this whole lifestyle and band and apartment that I had built up around me. 

There are a whole bunch of behaviors like this through my life, and I know we can break a lot of them down to core 8 and even some 5 thinking because I have a line to 5, but the 7 compulsions are there too, as a tertiary strategy, although it's difficult to break myself down into separate strategies when I am a whole person.


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## Feathers Falling (Sep 5, 2012)

Maybe said:


> Mostly the nature of my escapism. Fantasy might look like a pragmatic thing, like "one day I'll earn money!" but I've been doing it since I was small and it is a compulsive defense strategy. I also relate a lot to what @_cata.lyst.rawr_ writes about walking away from the fire... it's not that I'd be trying to look at the positive side in the midst of things - I'd be sorting things out, thinking about what needs to be done, etc... but I have walked away from pretty shitty situations with a similar attitude, like I got bedbugs in my apartment, and after taking care of everything that needed to be taken care of, I had to get rid of a lot of my stuff and thought "Well it's good because I had too much stuff." And I kind of fell into planning all the details of how I would get out. And I just went on to the next thing and the next, and had no real emotions about having to leave the city until much later when I was talking to someone else who stayed in the city and was pursuing their dreams, and then I processed my feelings about leaving this whole life and this apartment that I built rooms in, this whole lifestyle and band and apartment that I had built up around me.
> 
> There are a whole bunch of behaviors like this through my life, and I know we can break a lot of them down to core 8 and even some 5 thinking because I have a line to 5, but the 7 compulsions are there too, as a tertiary strategy, although it's difficult to break myself down into separate strategies when I am a whole person.




Interesting. 

Honestly, you give me a 7 "vibe" online. You just do. I take the normal ENFP framework, I add the power and depth from 8, then add the emotional and expressive attitude of 4. What's left? 5? Add 5 in there and what does it do? It makes you withdraw. It makes you aloof and text-book-like in your answers. Analytical. 

That's not what I feel. 

Add a 7 at the end and what do I feel? I feel an added energy. I feel the 7 optimism and energy added to your 8, and added to your 4 to give it the aggressive energy it needs to express itself in such the way thought you do, beyond what the 8 could do.

That's just my opinion tho :kitteh:


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## Feathers Falling (Sep 5, 2012)

@Maybe, I just looked at your signature and when I saw 8w8 my mind was like WTF THAT POWER?!?!

Haha it's funny how after studying enneagram for a while, looking at a number makes you feel all of the fears, desires, and emotions you know of that type. That was like double eightness in my brain.


~~~~weird~~~~~


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

cata.lyst.rawr said:


> @_Maybe_, I just looked at your signature and when I saw 8w8 my mind was like WTF THAT POWER?!?!
> 
> Haha it's funny how after studying enneagram for a while, looking at a number makes you feel all of the fears, desires, and emotions you know of that type. That was like double eightness in my brain.
> 
> ...


I just laughed way too hard while at work... Lmao.

i just did that because I feel both wings equally  but hey, extra power? I'll take it!


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## Feathers Falling (Sep 5, 2012)

Maybe said:


> I just laughed way too hard while at work... Lmao.
> 
> i just did that because I feel both wings equally  but hey, extra power? I'll take it!


hahaha :kitteh:

having a fun, intense, exciting, power-filled day at work? ;D


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## ThatOneWeirdGuy (Nov 22, 2012)

Are you more scared of pain (emotional or physical) or being incompetent?


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

ThatOneWeirdGuy said:


> Are you more scared of pain (emotional or physical) or being incompetent?


If I think about it in simple terms, more afraid of being incompetent or useless. To me that feels like being powerless and losing my autonomy. It's not competency in and of itself that I need though, if I look deeper. What I need is to be capable of taking care of myself. I don't want to be controlled and one could argue that if I'm rich then I would not be deprived but I don't think the fear of deprivation keeps me up at night. In fact the idea of homelessness turns me on because I would not be controlled by landlords and bosses and bills. However I am afraid of being deprived of the medications I need for my chronic illness because if that happens I will die within months. I am not afraid of pain- I ask my doctors to let me feel the pain instead of numbing me because I fear losing control and not knowing what's going on with my body. I fear vomiting for the same reason. I'm not afraid of emotional pain whatsoever - In fact I'll eat that shit for breakfast, lunch, and dinner if I'm lucky enough to encounter enough intensity to fill my appetite. But the emotion I'm afraid of is vulnerability . Anyway , that probably doesn't help much with my head fix... So getting back to the point, I have an obvious line to 5 but I think my defense strategies include narcissism and thinking I can get out of anything; overestimating myself when push comes to shove. I'm much more likely to be pragmatic, but when pragmatism fails there is always over confidence and a willingness to be impulsive and *believe* I can make it through.


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## ThatOneWeirdGuy (Nov 22, 2012)

Maybe said:


> If I think about it in simple terms, more afraid of being incompetent or useless. To me that feels like being powerless and losing my autonomy. It's not competency in and of itself that I need though, if I look deeper. What I need is to be capable of taking care of myself. I don't want to be controlled and one could argue that if I'm rich then I would not be deprived but I don't think the fear of deprivation keeps me up at night. In fact the idea of homelessness turns me on because I would not be controlled by landlords and bosses and bills. However I am afraid of being deprived of the medications I need for my chronic illness because if that happens I will die within months. I am not afraid of pain- I ask my doctors to let me feel the pain instead of numbing me because I fear losing control and not knowing what's going on with my body. I fear vomiting for the same reason. I'm not afraid of emotional pain whatsoever - In fact I'll eat that shit for breakfast, lunch, and dinner if I'm lucky enough to encounter enough intensity to fill my appetite. But the emotion I'm afraid of is vulnerability . Anyway , that probably doesn't help much with my head fix... So getting back to the point, I have an obvious line to 5 but I think my defense strategies include narcissism and thinking I can get out of anything; overestimating myself when push comes to shove. I'm much more likely to be pragmatic, but when pragmatism fails there is always over confidence and a willingness to be impulsive and *believe* I can make it through.


Okay... When planning things, do you rely on _knowledge _or _adaptability_? Think about the words intended meaning in an abstract way and get to the point.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

ThatOneWeirdGuy said:


> Okay... When planning things, do you rely on _knowledge _or _adaptability_? Think about the words intended meaning in an abstract way and get to the point.


Adaptability, straight up.


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