# Ethically Questionable Career Choices



## Fleetfoot (May 9, 2011)

So, I hate Fe, for starters. :dry:


Secondly, my unemployed ass needs a job. I've been applying to and fro, near and far (just near, really). The problem is, the only company I have heard back from was a for-profit higher education facility. 

Honestly it sounds like a really fun job, but I just can't allow myself to provide my time and efforts into something I wholeheartedly disbelieve in and personally feel like shouldn't exist at all. Honestly I find it strange that I even feel this way because I see how many people in places like this get royally screwed over in life, and I can't allow myself to even think that I would be making my living off of ripping people off...again. Damn empathy. 

I know I could do it if I change my mindset and just think to myself "Well, this is basically continuing the cycle. I was put in a shit ton of debt and skimpy job prospects, and now I shall do the same to others." But...I can't.



I'm still going to go to the interview, but I'm wondering if I bullshit through it well enough I get the job. Should I take it? Do I even have room to be picky about this?


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## TheIsrafil (May 19, 2014)

You don't like colleges and Universities, or is that what you mean?


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## Fleetfoot (May 9, 2011)

TheIsrafil said:


> You don't like colleges and Universities, or is that what you mean?


I don't like for-profit colleges. What's confusing about that?


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## Coburn (Sep 3, 2010)

Fleetfoot said:


> I don't like for-profit colleges. What's confusing about that?


You didn't state it clearly. 

IMO, don't take the job or the interview. If you don't believe in the company and/or you're not detached enough from your feelings to not care what kind of company it is(which it sounds like you aren't), you aren't going to do a good job in the role. You'll likely leave before their training has paid off (if you are offered it).

Save yourself time and save someone the hassle of having to compete against you for this role.


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## JayDubs (Sep 1, 2009)

Let's see if we can steer you around these ethical hurdles. It would help having more specifics, but I'll take a few shots in the dark. 

Is _this particular_ educational facility screwing people over? Because saying all for-profit universities rip people off is like saying all public schools suck. It's a generality. Even if a generality usually holds true, there are exceptions. (Personally, I attended some excellent public schools growing up.) 

Also, what would your role be, specifically? Would you have to encourage more people to attend? Or would you be providing services? Because students are going to attend these types of institutions regardless of your personal beliefs. If you can help them have a better experience/education/opportunities, you'd be doing a lot more for them than simply abstaining. Isn't actively improving their chances a more ethical choice than merely standing back and wiping your hands of the whole situation? Remember, your personal choice to not work for this institution is unlikely to have a large effect on their number of students, unless you'd be part of advertising or recruitment.


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

Two ways to deal with a systemic ethical problem: boycott it from the outside, or change it from the inside. 

Sometimes I think it's almost as useful to be someone on the inside who pushes for ethical behavior as much as it is to just avoid it all together. My suggestion to you would be take the job if it's offered, and see how it goes once you're inside. Maybe you can push for better ethics from within, and maybe your individual role can help you empower students to make the best financial choices they can while in this college they're already paying for. Or maybe it's so godawful that there's nothing you can do, and you'll quit on principle. Either way you'll have had a salary and some job experience that can help you along your way.


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## Fleetfoot (May 9, 2011)

JayDubs said:


> Let's see if we can steer you around these ethical hurdles. It would help having more specifics, but I'll take a few shots in the dark.
> 
> Is _this particular_ educational facility screwing people over? Because saying all for-profit universities rip people off is like saying all public schools suck. It's a generality. Even if a generality usually holds true, there are exceptions. (Personally, I attended some excellent public schools growing up.)
> 
> Also, what would your role be, specifically? Would you have to encourage more people to attend? Or would you be providing services? Because students are going to attend these types of institutions regardless of your personal beliefs. If you can help them have a better experience/education/opportunities, you'd be doing a lot more for them than simply abstaining. Isn't actively improving their chances a more ethical choice than merely standing back and wiping your hands of the whole situation? Remember, your personal choice to not work for this institution is unlikely to have a large effect on their number of students, unless you'd be part of advertising or recruitment.


Advertising and Recruitment. I probably am biased, but then again the company has two star reviews and almost everyone that used to work there is saying "This isn't how education should be run. All the higher ups care about is money and not the students and won't do anything if a school shuts down". Another part of my job would be to inform potential students about why this will change their life (I have a bachelor's degree from a state funded school, but it's proven to be worthless so far anyway) and why taking out a ridiculous amount of student loans will change them for the better. 

I can see myself pulling people to the side and saying shit like "Look, I know you want to be a chef. Go to a networking event and gain cooking experience on your own time. You don't need this place."

The place has massive layoffs every quarter as well. So even if I apply and work there for a few months, at least I know it's most likely temporary.


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## JayDubs (Sep 1, 2009)

Fleetfoot said:


> Advertising and Recruitment. I probably am biased, but then again the company has two star reviews and almost everyone that used to work there is saying "This isn't how education should be run. All the higher ups care about is money and not the students and won't do anything if a school shuts down". Another part of my job would be to inform potential students about why this will change their life (I have a bachelor's degree from a state funded school, but it's proven to be worthless so far anyway) and why taking out a ridiculous amount of student loans will change them for the better.
> 
> I can see myself pulling people to the side and saying shit like "Look, I know you want to be a chef. Go to a networking event and gain cooking experience on your own time. You don't need this place."
> 
> The place has massive layoffs every quarter as well. So even if I apply and work there for a few months, at least I know it's most likely temporary.


It's entirely possible it's a bad school. Or it might be that students who haven't done well after graduating (or before graduating) are more likely to submit reviews. It's sounds like you've been doing research, so you'll know better than I do. 

That said, I would definitely encourage you _not_ to go in and sabotage the company. Try to reform it, sure, but not actively act against its interests. It will put you in a very bad place looking for jobs in the future if they ever find out (and they might). Applications almost always ask for your work history. And if it involved being fired for something like that, you might become completely unhireable for anything you'd be interested in. 

Good luck. I've been out of work, and it's tough. But if you keep trying, you'll find something.


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## Kurt Wagner (Aug 2, 2014)

Fleetfoot said:


> So, I hate Fe, for starters. :dry:
> 
> Secondly, my unemployed ass needs a job. I've been applying to and fro, near and far (just near, really). The problem is, the only company I have heard back from was a for-profit higher education facility.
> 
> ...


Depends on how well you can deal with feelings of guilt and shame. Because if you do accept it and if you have such an issue with it, than you'll have to go through a lot of these in the future.

Or become an INFP*.


*you'll be poor though


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## Doktorin Zylinder (May 10, 2015)

The fact is, every profession has ethically questionable practices. Law is one; medicine and engineering are another two. If you have problems with for profit schools, don't take the job, but realize the system is on its way out. If you do manage to get the job, milk it for what it's worth, make your connections and network so you'll have somewhere to go when it goes belly up. Stepping stones are wonderful things. 

I'm not overly fond of moral nor ethical dilemmata. I realize that everyone needs to eat and make their way in the world. I also get that the world is populated by beings who have no clue what they are doing and many will stab you in the back as soon as they get the chance to get ahead. I will offer this piece of advice: do what you need to do to survive and be comfortable but also learn and expand and better yourself. Do not get caught up in the mental constructs of the pains of others as there is always someone hurting. It is their business and decision to live their lives, not yours. You're pretty safe as long as you aren't murdering people in the street or in private for that matter, but if you really dig into any profession, they are all full of shady practices. Everything is for profit, it just depends whose and how well it is hidden.


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## Razare (Apr 21, 2009)

Fleetfoot said:


> I know I could do it if I change my mindset and just think to myself "Well, this is basically continuing the cycle. I was put in a shit ton of debt and skimpy job prospects, and now I shall do the same to others." But...I can't.


From a Christian perspective, we tend the focus on the morality of our own behavior as individual participants in the world... at least I do.

X person wants to hire me to do work and this work in and of itself is not immoral... but the institution is part of a larger societal problem? That's called life. You're never going to escape that sort of moral dilemma in our world without simply living in the woods as a survivalist.

For example, when I work, I pay tax, which supports social security which I am against. I also helps support a system that bombs and invades other countries causing destruction. Under your way of thinking, it's morally unethical for me to work.

But the problem here is not that you or I are really trying to violate our morality, but rather we are having difficulty upholding it with perfection in a corrupt world.

I think picking our battles is the best decision. There are times and places where we are most effective.

-----------------------------

As for the student debt problem, that issue should really be put in context of the whole picture. This debt students hold, is largely illusionary debt. It exists on paper, but without a reliable way to collect, it's not exactly owed through a tangibly enforced mechanism.

They can take it out of tax returns... which ok, they get a bit here and there for those that work. It's basically like paying tax at that point.

They can take it out of social security... but social security is bankrupt, so these young people who are promised it today, will only get a small fraction of what the retired receive today. No person graduating now should expect social security as a reliable savings for retirement. In fact, the most pragmatic expectation would be to expect to receive nothing and have to go it alone.

I've heard they can garnish wages, but I've worked in payroll quite a bit, and I've only received 1 attempt at a wage garnishment for student debt, and that garnishment happened 3 years after the person had quit. They are so slow at this, I daresay you just change jobs and the garnishment goes away.

Basically these loans should never be given in the first place. They're are like subprime mortgage debt given to people who can't afford to pay. They are unethical and immoral loans that are predatory. And likewise, the government will never be able to collect the full amount because of that reason.

In essence, they are an education subsidy that looks like debt on paper.


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