# Smartest spiders? So smart they are classed as 'animals'?



## sprinkles

Dichotomistic logic - do spiders have a mind



> Undoubtedly many of Portia’s cognitive abilities are genetic. Laboratory tests carried out by Robert Jackson, chief of Canterbury’s spider unit, have shown that only Portia from the particular area where Scytodes is common can recognise the difference between an egg sac carrying and non-egg sac carrying specimen. And it is a visual skill they are born with. The same species of Portia trapped a few hundred miles away doesn’t show any evidence of seeing the egg sac.
> 
> But as Jackson points out, this just deepens the mystery. First there is the fact that such a specific mental behaviour as looking for an egg sac could be wired into a spider’s genome. And then there is the realisation that this is a population-specific, not species-specific, trait! It is a bit of locally acquired genetic knowledge. How does any simple hardwiring story account for that?





> One of Portia’s principal skills is to be able to lure another spider out of its web. Portia will pluck out rhythms at the edge of a web to mimic a trapped insect or other intruder. In some cases it can recognise the resident spider and will know what rhythm use – a remarkable ability in itself. But Portia has the flexibility to try out various patterns in trial and error fashion. It can tickle the web lightly, strum it vigorously, bob up and down as if on a trampoline – whatever it takes to move the other spider into position for an attack.
> 
> Often the foe will be two to three times Portia’s size and the trick is to arouse its curiosity without provoking a full blooded rush. Portia will also take advantage of any kind of cover. If it is a windy day, or the resident spider is busy wrapping up a recent capture, Portia will time its advance to match.





> “The White Tail can pluck, but only in a programmed, stereotyped, way. It doesn’t bother with tactics, or experimenting, or looking to see which way the other spider is facing. It just charges in and overpowers its prey with its size. Portia is a really weedy little spider and has to spend ages planning a careful attack. But its eyesight and trial and error approach means it can tackle any sort of web spider it comes across, even ones it has never met before in the history of its species,” says Harland.


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## Bast

Spiders are amazing ! Thanks for sharing this.


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## RobynC

So sentience might occur as early as the arthropod stage?


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## sprinkles

RobynC said:


> So sentience might occur as early as the arthropod stage?


Apparently. There's some evidence that these spiders might even be _self aware_. As in it can look at a mirror and identify itself, and not think it's another spider like most spiders and animals in general do.


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## Emerson

sprinkles said:


> Apparently. There's some evidence that these spiders might even be _self aware_. As in it can look at a mirror and identify itself, and not think it's another spider like most spiders and animals in general do.



This is literally incredable do you have any idea how long this species or genus of spider has been around for? It would be incredable if it was developing sentience and if it had been around for less time than our species that would be remarkable... Oh lord this is magnificent!


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## sprinkles

Emerson said:


> This is literally incredable do you have any idea how long this species or genus of spider has been around for? It would be incredable if it was developing sentience and if it had been around for less time than our species that would be remarkable... Oh lord this is magnificent!


What's more is that it seems experiments show that they can think about a problem and then solve it from memory. As in a maze that can only be seen as a whole from above. Apparently they either calculate the correct path from above, and then remember it, or give up and not bother. It takes some time for them to do this. If they can't do it, they give up. If they realize they made a mistake, and aren't where they should be in the maze, they go back and start over immediately.


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## Emerson

sprinkles said:


> What's more is that it seems experiments show that they can think about a problem and then solve it from memory. As in a maze that can only be seen as a whole from above. Apparently they either calculate the correct path from above, and then remember it, or give up and not bother. It takes some time for them to do this. If they can't do it, they give up. If they realize they made a mistake, and aren't where they should be in the maze, they go back and start over immediately.



This is insane, how long ago was the research released? I'm not really very well versed on animal intelligence, so how does this correlate with a chimpanzee? Obviously they seem more intelligent on a level of kinship and such, and how does its problem solving relate to that of the _corvid_ family? (Crows and Ravens) who've been shown to fashion AND use tools in problem solving (and they play tag, theres a video on youtube I'll find in a bit, its insane)


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## sprinkles

Emerson said:


> This is insane, how long ago was the research released? I'm not really very well versed on animal intelligence, so how does this correlate with a chimpanzee? Obviously they seem more intelligent on a level of kinship and such, and how does its problem solving relate to that of the _corvid_ family? (Crows and Ravens) who've been shown to fashion AND use tools in problem solving (and they play tag, theres a video on youtube I'll find in a bit, its insane)


Sources on the spider itself go back to the 1800's but it looks like the serious study began in the 80's and is only gaining more interest in the past decade.

It's a tiny kind of ugly looking spider, so you wouldn't think much by just looking at it. It's taken a lot to see the big picture of it.

Edit: also, the relation to corvids and chimps is that the spider is capable of advanced trial and error, and identifying other spiders through some kind of genetic memory as well as on its own as an individual. Birds and chimps can do these things to an extent as well. But the sheer level of adaptability I'm reading about far surpasses anything I've seen a crow or a chimp do (aside from birds highly advanced ability to remember and copy sounds)

We don't think much of birds or chimps being smart anymore, but this is a _spider_.


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## Emerson

sprinkles said:


> Sources on the spider itself go back to the 1800's but it looks like the serious study began in the 80's and is only gaining more interest in the past decade.
> 
> It's a tiny kind of ugly looking spider, so you wouldn't think much by just looking at it. It's taken a lot to see the big picture of it.


Those things have the coolest eyes ever I like the look of them. They're awesome.


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## RobynC

@sprinkles



> Apparently. There's some evidence that these spiders might even be _self aware_. As in it can look at a mirror and identify itself, and not think it's another spider like most spiders and animals in general do.


Yeah, that is unusual. There are many higher animals that cannot do that though who knows? Just because an animal might not realize that a reflection is just an image of itself doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't have a _mind_. It's possible that many, many organisms that we wouldn't think of might actually have self-awareness

It is also possible that this kind of sentience occurs in rising percentages, like relatively low order life that has sentience among many that don't. Of course the more advanced the nervous system gets, it becomes more and more common until it's a standard feature.

I'm not sure which. It's possible that the first speculation was right.



> What's more is that it seems experiments show that they can think about a problem and then solve it from memory. As in a maze that can only be seen as a whole from above. Apparently they either calculate the correct path from above, and then remember it, or give up and not bother. It takes some time for them to do this. If they can't do it, they give up. If they realize they made a mistake, and aren't where they should be in the maze, they go back and start over immediately.





> also, the relation to corvids and chimps is that the spider is capable of advanced trial and error, and identifying other spiders through some kind of genetic memory as well as on its own as an individual. Birds and chimps can do these things to an extent as well. But the sheer level of adaptability I'm reading about far surpasses anything I've seen a crow or a chimp do (aside from birds highly advanced ability to remember and copy sounds)


This raises some questions about machine sentience. Have we created electronics already that are self aware? I mean certain guidance and navigation systems and homing devices look like they could fit the bill. You need feedback-loops between sensory information and memory to get sentience...


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## Jennywocky

RobynC said:


> This raises some questions about machine sentience. Have we created electronics already that are self aware? I mean certain guidance and navigation systems and homing devices look like they could fit the bill. You need feedback-loops between sensory information and memory to get sentience...


Well, the article does mention that this is one application if we manage to better understand how Portia works. The human brain, due to all the input we receive, has to weed out a lot of information, but Portia's limited amount of visual receptors means it is getting only a small flow of visual data at a time and simply over time builds a full picture of the surroundings and thus doesn't need all the extra processing to filter things out... so perhaps we could model robotic thinking on the same principles.

The last thing I enjoy thinking about is a smart spider. 

However, this article was very cool.


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## RobynC

@Jennywocky

There are of course ethical issues to deal with, as creating a simulation of a sentient brain will yield a sentient brain. Shutting it off becomes tantamount to murder, and certain experiments would be considered torturous.


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## Jennywocky

RobynC said:


> There are of course ethical issues to deal with, as creating a simulation of a sentient brain will yield a sentient brain. Shutting it off becomes tantamount to murder, and certain experiments would be considered torturous.


Eventually, yes. 

I don't think anyone's yet determined the line of when something crosses over into sentience, though. Even our most advanced robotics that we've sent on a one-way trip to other planets haven't really been considered sentient.

We'll have to start considering "ownership rights" then as well.


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## RobynC

@Jennywocky



> I don't think anyone's yet determined the line of when something crosses over into sentience, though.


Which means there is a need to figure out what is and what is not sentient without creating a simulation of it's brain, or doing invasive experiments.



> Even our most advanced robotics that we've sent on a one-way trip to other planets haven't really been considered sentient.


Good point, and it has been said the intellect possessed by these robotics were about the same as a cockroach.



> We'll have to start considering "ownership rights" then as well.


That's right, one basic right of a sentient being is the basic right not to be owned by another. A good question to ask is this: When technology of this type comes into being, what's to stop people from simply redefining the definition of sentience to something that does not include the technology in question?

After all, people who are using the technology are probably not going to want to part with it; the corporations selling it aren't going to want to stop building and selling it _(and then you consider lobbying and regulatory capture)_; then you'll have arguments that such regulations would stifle technological progress and that would allow people questioning/opposing the ethics of it as being luddites, which would very effectively stifle any discussion.


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## Jennywocky

Good ethical questions, but I came here for a science discussion and to learn more about these spiders, lol....


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## Angelic Gardevoir

I for one welcome our arachnid overlords. :tongue:


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## RobynC

@Angelic Gardevoir

I doubt they'll pose any threat to us.


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## sprinkles

RobynC said:


> @Angelic Gardevoir
> 
> I doubt they'll pose any threat to us.


Yeah, probably not. Most jumping spiders are incredibly docile to anything that isn't food. This actually makes them quite lovely study subjects. Even the ones that aren't the Portia species have a lot of 'personality'.


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## Angelic Gardevoir

RobynC said:


> @_Angelic Gardevoir_
> 
> I doubt they'll pose any threat to us.


 Give them about ten thousand years or so...

(Yeah, I was just kidding. I just wanted to be the first to make the reference. :tongue


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## Jennywocky

sprinkles said:


> Yeah, probably not. Most jumping spiders are incredibly docile to anything that isn't food. This actually makes them quite lovely study subjects.


Well, yes... which is fine until World War IV and all the radiation makes them as big as Cadillacs. Then we're in trouble.


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## Nearsification

RobynC said:


> Is that really the right way to look at it?



Probably not. Its a bug. I'm a human. I can kill it. As long as I'm not killing billions of them and ruining the ecosystem I have no probably constantly stepping on them.


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## Angelic Gardevoir

Nearsification said:


> And what are those 2 legs like things in front of him? Legs? They don't touch the floor. Weird fangy things?


 Pedipalps are what they're called. Yay Google!


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## reletative

i don't really like killing spiders. i think because i'm so much larger than they are, and there's nothing they can really do to get away. it seems an unfair fight.


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## Nearsification

Khys said:


> i don't really like killing spiders. i think because i'm so much larger than they are, and there's nothing they can really do to get away. it seems an unfair fight.


 Who said nature was fair?


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## Psychosmurf

Hm. Makes me think twice about all the bugs I've squished. :mellow:

So it can do a little logic and solve simple problems? Well, that's more than I can say for most humans. :tongue:


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## Angelic Gardevoir

Psychosmurf said:


> Hm. Makes me think twice about all the bugs I've squished. :mellow:
> 
> So it can do a little logic and solve simple problems? Well, that's more than I can say for most humans. :tongue:


 Well, I would say that most humans, in theory, are very much capable of using logic and solving problems. It's just that many of them choose not to. :tongue:

Anyway, someone needs to study this spider's nervous system. Seriously.


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## RobynC

@Nearsification



> Probably not. Its a bug. I'm a human. I can kill it.


Under that logic because you can do it, means it's okay?


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## Nearsification

RobynC said:


> Under that logic because you can do it, means it's okay?


 Well thank you for removing the other part of my post that explains that.


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## Kirilenko

Spiders are amazing animals like all arthropod.No one can beat beauty of zoomed in spider eyes.


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## ALNF1031

It's their stronger than steel and kevlar webs that I find interesting.

Look at this crap, how did it even make a web over a river that high?


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## psynite

It makes sense to me that spiders would be smart, they have so many options for hunting. Jumping, webs, poison....and traps....not many animals have that many options except for us...I was thinking about the possibilities of training spiders to kill unwanted pests in the home


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## sprinkles

Alddous1031 said:


> It's their stronger than steel and kevlar webs that I find interesting.
> 
> Look at this crap, how did it even make a web over a river that high?


Web weavers in general are rather intelligent builders. There's probably branches that reach over the river. They can attach a drag line to one side, let it hang behind them while they cross the branch, then attach it at the other side to make a frame they can build the web onto.


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## sprinkles

psynite said:


> It makes sense to me that spiders would be smart, they have so many options for hunting. Jumping, webs, poison....and traps....not many animals have that many options except for us...I was thinking about the possibilities of training spiders to kill unwanted pests in the home


Just leaving them be is usually enough. If I see one in the house I typically leave it alone, especially if there's no web in my living space which would mean it's probably just passing through and probably has its home somewhere else. If you have no bugs in your living area they usually won't make a home there, if you see a spider it is probably just traveling or got trapped inside your home and is looking for a way out.


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## RobynC

@Angelic Gardevoir

I've just thought of something. Just because an organism doesn't have an amygdala doesn't mean it doesn't have a structure that can fulfill a similar function. Let's look at one's digestive tract for example. Overall, it's roughly 30 feet long in a human being, it consists of numerous types of cells, tissues, and ultimately organs. 

Regardless, single cell organisms have structures that allow them to digest without a multicellular configuration. An example would be the lysosomes.


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## Angelic Gardevoir

@ RobynC-Yes, that is an excellent point, and that's what I meant by "equivalent of an amygdala." It doesn't _have _to be an amygdala, but it _does _have to fulfill the functions of one. Which is why this spider's nervous system needs to be studied. :wink:


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## RobynC

@Angelic Gardevoir

How do you propose studying it?


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## Mutatio NOmenis

I've known about Portia for years. Needless to say, it's like a real life horror movie.


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