# Listen up, ladies - here's everything real men think is wrong with you



## Snakecharmer (Oct 26, 2010)

Listen Up, Ladies: Here's Everything Real Men Think Is Wrong With You

Ohhhh SNAP! :laughing:

I've been doing some scholarly research, and I noticed this thing that's been really dragging society down for the past few millennia: it's that everything is wrong with you. You are gross. First of all, your hair is gross, because it is not long and thick enough. But don't strap fake hair to your head! That's also gross! Also, what the fuck is up with your skin? It is so dry and scaly like a lizard (but not one of those sexy lizards)! Except uuuuuuugh, do you have to take so long putting on your idiotic woman-lotion? This penis isn't going to fondle itself! CHOP CHOP. Now, I know all this contradictory minutiae regarding your attractiveness can get confusing (especially with your lipstick-encrusted walnut brains!), but luckily, plenty of guys are generous enough to explain what they don't like about you in great detail. Over and over. You're welcome.

For your edification, the good folks over at Yahoo have compiled a list of the "15 Biggest Beauty Turnoffs from Real Guys"—yet another survey of "real guys" to reinforce the precise line of shit we women need to walk to remain attractive to them (it's the least we can do, really). Because that media trope never gets tired. Let's jump in!

If you are looking to attract a man with your fluffy false lashes and your flowing fake mane, it is time to take a different approach. We scouted the truth and discovered the things women do that make men turn the other way. All in all, men love to see the woman underneath the makeup, so ditch the dramatic routine and go natural for once.

First of all, I am neither an empty man-socket nor a fucking venus flytrap. I am not looking to "attract a man." I am just trying to do my stuff and then maybe meet a person who likes me because I am also a person. I didn't want to get all serious right off the bat, BUT SORRY: Women's grueling, lifelong, losing battle to transform themselves into magical, flawless creatures with Disney hair and 15-inch waists and massive ham-lips is not for the benefit of women. And when men say that they "love to see the woman underneath the makeup," they're not saying they want to see your leg stubble and greasy bangs—they're saying they want you to be better at hiding your maintenance routine. Because the maintenance spoils the fantasy.

"My wife spends 20 minutes after the shower putting on body lotion. Apparently it has to be applied evenly. For me, it is just a time suck." -R.D.S.

TICK TOCK, WIFE! QUIT SUCKING R.D.S.'S TIME AND START SUCKING SOMETHING ELSE.

"It gets on my nerves when women take too much time on makeup. You would think after a lifetime they would have the process down to less than 45 minutes!" -Christopher

Yeah, women! You're sooooo high-maintenance! To be clear, we definitely don't want you to stop painting that prettier face over your regular face every day—because gross—but could you just hurry it up? You're late for Christopher's blowjob.

"I can't stand when she has wet hair after the shower and lays on my pillow, I usually roll over on the wet spot." -Jeff

Okay, that one is legit rude. But "wet hair" is not solely a woman's domain. Fun fact: Dudes are also capable of becoming wet in a shower and then lying on a bed. Equality! Look at us go!

"If she has to be at work at 6am and uses the hair dryer, it wakes me up. Then, just when I get back to sleep. She is wearing her heels in the bathroom and the kitchen. Click. Click. Can't you wear slippers?" -Pablo

So don't have wet hair but don't use the hair dryer. Got it.

Also, definitely wear sexy heels (sensible flats are for lesbians, obv!), but don't walk in them. At least not when Pablo is sleeping. If you could just scoot yourself around on the carpet like a dog with butt-worms, and then put your heels on outside in the beauty bark, that would be ideal for Pablo. Thx.

"I don't like extensions because when you put your hands in her hair you can feel all the lumps. It might be good to look at but not to touch." -Robert

Jeez, all this hair stuff is confusing! So...don't have wet hair, don't have dry hair, don't have natural hair, don't have fake hair. GOT IT.

And, you know, Robert, when you teach women that they need to be objects to even qualify as women, then why are you surprised when they start to literally integrate with objects?

"I'm picky about oral hygiene - brushing, flossing, mouthwash. She has to brush her teeth before bed and in the morning before we kiss. That extra care once we reach a certain level of intimacy is important." -Rod

Have you tried Milk Bones?

"They don't put caps back on things or they put it on but they don't screw it on so when I go get something it spills." -Connor

Oh, for fuck's sake, Connor. Women don't put caps back on things!? This is a woman thing now? ARE YOU SURE THIS ISN'T A "CONNOR'S SISTER" THING? My boyfriend leaves his wet towel on the bed, but you don't see me e-mailing fucking Kirk Douglas and President Obama and Bobby Flay about it.

"Those thick eyelashes that women put on are annoying. It makes a woman stick out and people know that they aren't real. I like a woman who looks nice and natural. Regular people don't need all those eyelashes." -Lindsay

Regular people don't need all those eyelashes.

"My wife doesn't dye her hair often enough. I don't like to see those dark roots." -Anonymous



"I wish my girlfriend would get a manicure more often instead of doing it herself. She is pretty low-maintenance." -Shaun

:-|

First of all. I find it hard to believe that Shaun can even tell the difference between a salon manicure and an at-home manicure, unless his girlfriend has some sort of tremor-inducing palsy, or multitasks by combining nail maintenance with trampoline practice. Which means this whole thing is just about signaling—Shaun wants to be with the kind of woman who gets her nails done at a salon. Nevermind the fact that going out to get your nails done can eat up several hours a week (I presume he also wants his girlfriend to have a career and a social life and to take care of her family and do her taxes and maintain her home and feed herself and possibly sleep once in a while), and can cost hundreds of dollars a month (I also presume Shaun is not footing the bill).

And second of all, let's all just take a second to note that women have now been criticized for being high-maintenance, maintenance, and low-maintenance.

And third of all, MAYBE SHE JUST LIKES DOING HER NAILS BECAUSE IT'S FUN. Sometimes women get to make our own decisions and do things because those things make us happy.

I can't believe we're even still having this conversation, but dudes, LISTEN: Women's bodies, even ones into which you get to stick your penis, are not yours. Women have the right to be gross, to have hair, to be slow, to put on make-up, to not put on make-up, to wear fake eyelashes, to smell good or bad, and to be human beings. Women are not your dog our your lawn or your living room, you do not get to prune and groom and design us, and negotiating things like hygiene and style within a relationship is a matter of mutual respect. My right to do my own nails does not stop where your personal boner for trimmed cuticles begins.

Also, women: If you are single, it is not because your fake eyelashes are too bushy or Kevin doesn't like cucumber lotion. This shit is an oppressive waste of your time. Here's my new beauty tip for everyone on earth: Go read a book or something.


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## WolfStar (Aug 18, 2009)

Article is basically just a giant gossip-y diatribe. 0/10 literally made me dumber for reading it.


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## Snakecharmer (Oct 26, 2010)

Hmm. I find it hilarious, but maybe I have a strange sense of humor.


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## WolfStar (Aug 18, 2009)

Snakecharmer said:


> Hmm. I find it hilarious, but maybe I have a strange sense of humor.


Haha, nothin' wrong with that. I'm think an article that takes a snarky sarcastic tone towards the dumber things men can say is something for women to laugh at. Doesn't bother me, I just felt like being snarky too. :B


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## chaoticbrain (May 5, 2012)

Are the comments from men really commonplace ? I mean that is pretty fucked up if they are, but really ? If a guy commented on a girl's manicure I would half expect him to be gay.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

I thought it was pretty hilarious. It's probably hard to grasp why for the non-female crowd though.

After having overheard many all male conversations (online & offline) about women's appearances & bodies (which are scrutinized & compartmentalized & rated down to a random freckle & stray hair), there seems to be an illogical preference for someone to naturally look unnatural - aka to fit beauty ideals which require maintenance and/or alterations but with no maintenance or alterations.


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

Glad I'm a Lesbian.


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## Snakecharmer (Oct 26, 2010)

killerB said:


> Glad I'm a Lesbian.


Sometimes I wish I could push myself that way. lol


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## purposive (Jun 4, 2013)

What? Who the hell spends 30 minutes applying lotion to there body?!?!!?! Do these people understand how much they could have done within that time frame?


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## chimeric (Oct 15, 2011)

Amen on the leaving hair in the shower, though. I _hate _when women do that. (And it's mostly women, because women are usually the ones with long hair.)

:dry:


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## Snakecharmer (Oct 26, 2010)

chimeric said:


> Amen on the leaving hair in the shower, though. I _hate _when women do that. (And it's mostly women, because women are usually the ones with long hair.)
> 
> :dry:


My hair was down to my waist until a few days ago. I have to admit, it used to be everywhere...but I've always been good about cleaning it up. lol


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## Snakecharmer (Oct 26, 2010)

purposive said:


> What? Who the hell spends 30 minutes applying lotion to there body?!?!!?! Do these people understand how much they could have done within that time frame?


For me, it isn't lotion that takes forever...it is my freakin' hair. lol


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## purposive (Jun 4, 2013)

Snakecharmer said:


> For me, it isn't lotion that takes forever...it is my freakin' hair. lol


 Why? Do you have course/medium course/fine curly/wavy hair? What exactly do you do for it to take so long?


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## chimeric (Oct 15, 2011)

Snakecharmer said:


> My hair was down to my waist until a few days ago. I have to admit, it used to be everywhere...but I've always been good about cleaning it up. lol


Good. I've experienced women leaving _massive hairballs_ in the shower. In no way is that OK! Ew. Yuck.

But yeah, I LOL at the guys who are all "no makeup ever" but only find made-up women attractive.


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## ApostateAbe (Aug 8, 2013)

Snakecharmer said:


> Listen Up, Ladies: Here's Everything Real Men Think Is Wrong With You


Ooh, calling bullshit on a Yahoo! advice column. Yeah, I always took Yahoo! advice columns to be respectable examples of wisdom, so that is bravely written.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

I loved the article. :laughing:
Seems like our sense of humour is plenty similar @_Snakecharmer_  hahaha

And, I am surprised that these shallow fuckwits even get dates. :dry:


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

Snakecharmer said:


> Sometimes I wish I could push myself that way. lol



I have a feeling that a lot of porn starts with a line like that. 

I'm gonna kinda side with the men in the article and ask: what's wrong with jeans and a t-shirt? I get it if you have a job that requires business formal or casual and the need to be presentable and all of that, but I personally don't see the need for all the skulduggery that comes with the beauty routine, especially when it's applied daily. To be honest, the women with the fake lashes and the extensions just make me look past them to the girl behind them that tries to ignore all of this crap, then again I'm atypical anyway.


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## Playful Proxy (Feb 6, 2012)

The amount of giggle in response to the OP was probably higher than it should have been. But @_Snakecharmer_, I'd like to qualify your point at the end (the non-satiric part) by saying that while a woman's body does not belong to a man/men and she has choice, in the case of SO's who spend lots of time together, a mutual agreement between the two on minimal hygiene/appearance is still perfectly normal. I don't consider it oppressive to ask that her hair not be going in every direction and combed just as her finger points me to the bathroom and razer in the mornings (she has a serious thing against stubble and beards on me). I think relationships should get a bit more slack because we do get to have talks on what we'd like from the other appearance-wise. 

If she hadn't brushed her hair before going somewhere, I'd probably notice it similarly to if mine wasn't brushed or the death glare I got the time I tried to go to the store without pants (hehe). I also find fault in the whole women having to change for all guys in general thing, but I am of the belief that if your SO would like something of you, it isn't too difficult, and he/she is doing his share in return for you, why not?


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

OrangeAppled said:


> I thought it was pretty hilarious. It's probably hard to grasp why for the non-female crowd though.
> 
> After having overheard many all male conversations (online & offline) about women's appearances & bodies (which are scrutinized & compartmentalized & rated down to a random freckle & stray hair), there seems to be an illogical preference for someone to naturally look unnatural - aka to fit beauty ideals which require maintenance and/or alterations but with no maintenance or alterations.


Sigh. I'll have to pull rank here, as a veteran married man.
There are two main issues; rather, three.
One is the intersection of beauty (maintenance) and time.
The other is beauty and primping, and the desired audience.
The third is an amalgam of the first two, and (as you touched on) has to do with looking "natural."

Let us parse.

The first is beauty maintenance and *time*. Women (or a least the youthful ones) have enough *natural* beauty -- radiant eyes, glowing skin, long, soft hair, a certain feminine, soft, liquid "flow" and suppleness to their movements -- that they really don't have to do a LOT of makeup and primping to be attractive to men. (The counterpart is young muscular men with three day's growth of beard and shoulder and back muscles naturally rippling through the shirt -- "...he was just...*lifting* it!" -- swoons)
And so when women take a LOT of extra time to do things on lashes, fluffing up the hair, etc., it seems pointless to men (more on this in the discussion of #3)

The second is related to the first: the intended target of the beautification routine. As I said, men are easily pleased by women, and are inherently *visual* in their initial attraction. So dressing / doing makeup in a way that satisfies your man, is a little different than doing it in a way to *please* him; and both of these are different than what women do when "going out in public" or "on a date" or "on the town" ... and all of these are because the woman is aware of (and in a way men are blissfully ignorant of) the *social message* sent by a particular dress, or combination of shoes and handbag, or level of makeup / hair styling -- and how the interplay of all these is dependent upon where you are going, how you want to fit in, the level of social standing you want to broadcast, and all the rest. As I said, for a guy, if your makeup and clothes are enough to generate that second glance, *or* to make him stare, his brain lock up, and then think bedroom thoughts, then you're pretty much good to go in our book. So we consider all the rest of the primping and aligning to be extraneous.

But here's the kicker, the #3. Since primping isn't part of a man's world, then, when we *are* out in public and see a woman who has taken care with her appearance and makeup, to us, this makes us think instinctively, that *that* look _is what you naturally look like_! We don't know, or consider, the half-hour of facial scrub, concealer, just a *dab* (but not *TOO* much!) of rouge, the carefully applied eyeliner and mascara -- those alluring tints of colour on your eyelids are just part of being a woman, just like "supple, pouting breasts, firm thighs" (that line stolen from the comedy movie _Airplane!_). 

What men *really* want in makeup/looks, as you pointed out, @OrangeAppled, is something that removes the normally occurring splotches of color, blemishes, etc., and makes the woman look regular and homogeneous. You know -- _natural_. But we want it to be done subtly, so we don't know anything was done *at all*. (Or, to paraphrase Amy Farah Fowler to Penny on _The Big Bang Theory_, "What do YOU have to complain about? God, don't you even have pores at ALL?")

The three biggest blessings a woman can have, to attract a man in the looks department, are clear, deep, eyes; fresh skin; and a radiant smile. These will make a woman more attractive, no matter her height, weight, or if her hair is hidden under a bandana.


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

Snakecharmer said:


> Hmm. I find it hilarious, but maybe I have a strange sense of humor.


You do.


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## FauxPlasticTrees (Jul 2, 2013)

g_w said:


> As far as putting in aesthetical effort
> (...)
> So I know from experience, it's not just a 1-way street.


Ok, thanks for your explanation. Good on you for accomplishing all this positive change.

I still don't think that doing something for your own physical health (losing weight, building muscle, etc.) can be equalized with advising women to "_always, Always, ALWAYS, _*ALWAY*" wear a layer of make-up on their face (purely for aesthetics, no other benefit, unlike your physical getting fit).


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

FauxPlasticTrees said:


> Ok, thanks for your explanation. Good on you for accomplishing all this positive change.
> 
> I still don't think that doing something for your own physical health (losing weight, building muscle, etc.) can be equalized with advising women to "_always, Always, ALWAYS, _*ALWAY*" wear a layer of make-up on their face (purely for aesthetics, no other benefit, unlike your physical getting fit).


Doing things to yourself should really only be for yourself. If you have to mutate yourself for someone else, then their interest is firmly embedded in the facade you put up. I grew up watching my sister and cousin slowly become slaves to the beauty routine and it's nothing short of shocking. I don't think most guys realize that there are women who start messing with their hair on firday nights and finish Saturday mornings. The whole joke about women in the bathroom is true for a lot of them, taking hours of their day to apply all of this shit for a few hours later that night. It's all really unappealing and sad to see that close up when you're detached from the situation.


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## Aquamarine (Jul 24, 2011)

*Shakes head* Do women's appearance really matter that much? The sarcasm was funny, though!

Personally I don't spend much time on beauty, except my hair because it's quite thick and frizzy.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

I'm glad I know guys who aren't pigs.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

Gotta love the sarcastic tone of it. Take a bunch of random quotes from random guys and put them together so you can make a pissed off rant. Then you wonder why you're lonely at home and are hoarding cats.


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

FauxPlasticTrees said:


> Ok, thanks for your explanation. Good on you for accomplishing all this positive change.
> 
> I still don't think that doing something for your own physical health (losing weight, building muscle, etc.) can be equalized with advising women to "_always, Always, ALWAYS, _*ALWAY*" wear a layer of make-up on their face (purely for aesthetics, no other benefit, unlike your physical getting fit).





Android654 said:


> Doing things to yourself should really only be for yourself. If you have to mutate yourself for someone else, then their interest is firmly embedded in the facade you put up. I grew up watching my sister and cousin slowly become slaves to the beauty routine and it's nothing short of shocking. I don't think most guys realize that there are women who start messing with their hair on firday nights and finish Saturday mornings. The whole joke about women in the bathroom is true for a lot of them, taking hours of their day to apply all of this shit for a few hours later that night. It's all really unappealing and sad to see that close up when you're detached from the situation.


 @_FauxPlasticTrees_, @_android654_, 
OOOPS. I *SEE* where I miscommunicated, and it's my fault.
When I wrote "always, Always, ALWAYS, *ALWAYS*" -- what I meant was, if you're going OUT, and have to choose between heavy make-up, "natural" looking (light sensible makeup) and nothing, go with the light sensible.
Men worth considering will appreciate it the most of the three make-up options (the cads and one-night-stand artists go first for women who radiate low-self-esteem, stereotypically indicated by too much makeup or *none*), and the other women are less likely to look at you sidelong and mutter "beyotch."
For the win!


Sorry for leading you astray like that...! At home, men don't care as much if you're wearing a lot of makeup, as long as you are willing to radiate cuddles all over them. We're odd like that. :tongue:


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

android654 said:


> Doing things to yourself should really only be for yourself. If you have to mutate yourself for someone else, then their interest is firmly embedded in the facade you put up. I grew up watching my sister and cousin slowly become slaves to the beauty routine and it's nothing short of shocking. I don't think most guys realize that there are women who start messing with their hair on firday nights and finish Saturday mornings. The whole joke about women in the bathroom is true for a lot of them, taking hours of their day to apply all of this shit for a few hours later that night. It's all really unappealing and sad to see that close up when you're detached from the situation.


First, I agree with you about not changing "just for someone else" as you can't keep up the facade, and it's not honest, nor emotionally healthy, nor respectful.
I agree with you about the effects of makeup and taking hours of the day to apply for a few hours later that night.
But with fitness, weight loss, etc., there are some major differences. Let me explain.
1) you are improving your appeal overall, and it's *not* artificial: once you lose six inches from your waist, it's GONE. It doesn't suddenly show up all over again the next morning.
2) in addition to improving your appeal, you are changing your personal habits -- behaviour repeated forms into habits, habits repeated harden into values, values sustained make up your character. And having a character of self-discipline and concern for your health benefits you and ALL those who love you.
3) As mentioned in #2, weight loss and fitness improve your health (and your stamina and confidence and lifespan).
As a matter of fact the exercise *was* for me: I had been trying a number of weight-loss/exercise plans for years, but even though I exercised a LOT, I never lost weight. This plan did it for me; and the key was some changes to the diet (not just *what* I ate, but *when* I ate it in relation to the workout). If you're interested, I can start a later thread on it, or PM you.

Best Regards,
g_w


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

g_w said:


> First, I agree with you about not changing "just for someone else" as you can't keep up the facade, and it's not honest, nor emotionally healthy, nor respectful.
> I agree with you about the effects of makeup and taking hours of the day to apply for a few hours later that night.
> But with fitness, weight loss, etc., there are some major differences. Let me explain.
> 1) you are improving your appeal overall, and it's *not* artificial: once you lose six inches from your waist, it's GONE. It doesn't suddenly show up all over again the next morning.
> ...


It's good you made a change that you're proud of, and it's in the same vein of what I was trying to say. Check me out on the health forum, I'm pretty serious about my regimen, I'm very meticulous with my diet, but it's not the same as caking on foundation, lashes, and extensions. Getting up at 5:30 in the morning to get in 90 minutes before work and boxing in the afternoon takes a completely different constitution than devoting a dozen hours a week to keeping your face on and trying to look super-model-fuckable at every moment through accessories on your face.


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

android654 said:


> It's good you made a change that you're proud of, and it's in the same vein of what I was trying to say. Check me out on the health forum, I'm pretty serious about my regimen, I'm very meticulous with my diet, but it's not the same as caking on foundation, lashes, and extensions. Getting up at 5:30 in the morning to get in 90 minutes before work and boxing in the afternoon takes a completely different constitution than devoting a dozen hours a week to keeping your face on and trying to look super-model-fuckable at every moment through accessories on your face.


I'll look for you on the health forum.
Obligatory sarcasm: doesn't the boxing affect your need for makeup (black eyes, broken nose)? :shocked:


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

g_w said:


> I'll look for you on the health forum.
> Obligatory sarcasm: doesn't the boxing affect your need for makeup (black eyes, broken nose)? :shocked:


What's the point of a black eye if I can't show it off?


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

FauxPlasticTrees said:


> Ok, thanks for your explanation. Good on you for accomplishing all this positive change.
> 
> I still don't think that doing something for your own physical health (losing weight, building muscle, etc.) can be equalized with advising women to "_always, Always, ALWAYS, _*ALWAY*" wear a layer of make-up on their face (purely for aesthetics, no other benefit, unlike your physical getting fit).


I seem to have got my foot in my mouth up to my knee, haven't I?

I re-read this and found ANOTHER thing I mis-communicated on. I took your initial response to me, "How dare you demand that a woman put on makeup and look perfect -- just for you: in fact, just so you can ogle her -- and you can't even take the time to look decent or maintain yourself. So there!"
So my response was pointing out that a) I didn't demand the fanciest makeup, that in fact, most men prefer a little less than total dolling up; and b) I was making positive changes in my life to improve my appearance, that took more time, effort, and trouble than putting something on my face in the morning.
View attachment 81465


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> seriously? that's creepy as fuck


Oh, yes. Believe me when I say that males do not have the corner on these attitudes.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

killerB said:


> Oh, yes. Believe me when I say that males do not have the corner on these attitudes.


agreed. my last post addressed precisely that


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## loving2011 (Nov 6, 2012)

Men say one thing and do another. Women do the same too. Watch what people do!

Ex: A man tells you that he prefers women without makeup or women that wear conservative clothes. Yet, you see him drooling all over the stripper with a full face of makeup. :laughing:


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## dvnj22 (Apr 24, 2013)

What does a "real man" mean?


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

loving2011 said:


> Men say one thing and do another. Women do the same too. Watch what people do!
> 
> Ex: A man tells you that he prefers women without makeup or women that wear conservative clothes. Yet, you see him drooling all over the stripper with a full face of makeup. :laughing:


Prefers them for what, exactly? :wink:


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## loving2011 (Nov 6, 2012)

g_w said:


> Prefers them for what, exactly? :wink:


My guess is that he doesn't want other men looking at his women. Pssh...I don't mind if others admire the looks of my partner!


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## FauxPlasticTrees (Jul 2, 2013)

g_w said:


> @_FauxPlasticTrees_, @_android654_,
> OOOPS. I *SEE* where I miscommunicated, and it's my fault.
> When I wrote "always, Always, ALWAYS, *ALWAYS*" -- what I meant was, if you're going OUT, and have to choose between heavy make-up, "natural" looking (light sensible makeup) and nothing, go with the light sensible.
> Men worth considering will appreciate it the most of the three make-up options (the cads and one-night-stand artists go first for women who radiate low-self-esteem, stereotypically indicated by too much makeup or *none*), and the other women are less likely to look at you sidelong and mutter "beyotch."
> ...



Ohhh Ok I understand now, thanks for clearing up the misunderstandings :kitteh:
Sorry also if I reacted a bit too strongly.


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## CrystallineSheep (Jul 8, 2012)

I don't know why a lot of women make so much effort. Most men don't even notice half the shit you do. If he is not going to notice your new haircut then he is for sure would not going to notice you did your nails, that you took so much time to do your make-up etc. Assuming that you did to be seen as more attractive to me. I think as you are have good hygiene and make some effort to look good that is satisfactory enough.


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

PowerShell said:


> Gotta love the sarcastic tone of it. Take a bunch of random quotes from random guys and put them together so you can make a pissed off rant. Then you wonder why you're lonely at home and are hoarding cats.


Hey, cats need love too.


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

fourtines said:


> His Mother/Whore complex, apparently.


My (implied) point was a man might drool over a stripper, but most likely won't seek to marry her, unless he is unusually deprIved, or shallow.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

g_w said:


> My (implied) point was a man might drool over a stripper, but most likely won't seek to marry her, unless he is unusually deprIved, or shallow.


But the Mother/Whore complex implies that he wants his wife to be near sexless even while drooling over strippers (which he degrades and treats as less than human) behind her back.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

g_w said:


> You've put your finger on half of the problem. The other issue that has come up, is that women use their sexuality (particularly when they are young and at the height of their looks) to attract attention from "the hottest men" and bestow sexual favors without any commitment, provided only that the guy is interesting / hot / dominant, without a thought of locking down commitment. Two
> things follow in turn. First, the woman forms a warped sense of her own marriage market value, since, during one-night-stands / flings / "FWB" or "FB" status, a woman can generally attract a *much* hotter/richer/higher status man than she would be able to get to commit to her for marriage
> [*] But the woman's ego and vanity is stroked to the point that, she honestly believes that if she can get a man to go to bed with her, then perforce she *could* attract him to put a ring on her finger as well. Second, since the men who actually succeed in bedding women at the height of the womens' youthful charms, *are* the hottest guys, or else are very dominant -- including in bed -- ...well, the woman is likely to have her standards for what attracts her shift *upwards*. So that when she is finished having her fun, and looks to "settle down", there are two consequences. First, the level of men from whom she has been accustomed to choose, are no longer interested in her: since a man's attractiveness to women rises slowly, then plateaus, with age, the men who had been carousing with her since age 22 or 24, are *still* able to hit on 22- or 24-year-olds, and stop paying attention to her; the level of men who ARE paying attention to her (age 30 or 32, with a lot of mileage) are just those "non-exciting, gawking, fawning-but-never-approaching" men whom she has been scorning in favor of hotter more aggressive men.
> Yuck. Secondly, she still insists on demanding premium prices from those men, in return for sleeping with / marrying them.
> ...


What I got out of this is that you are nuts and resentful. I am in my 30s and have had boys in their TEENS follow me around. I am extremely attractive, including to men much younger than me. I spent most of my twenties in two committed relationships, and I don't think men necessarily get more attractive with age; some do, some don't, but I know gorgeous 50 year old women and hideous 36 year old men, and vice versa.

Crossed off of women you'd marry? Sounds like a mother/whore complex. 

I'm not flaming you, I just think you're a self-righteous prig with false ideas about people who are not like you. I imagine you're trying to justify to yourself why you've been married your entire life.

Things aren't as simple as you make them. I wish I had been able to stay with the love of my youth, but alas, he's an untreated mentally ill person.

Get over yourself. Please. Jesus.


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

fourtines said:


> But the Mother/Whore complex implies that he wants his wife to be near sexless even while drooling over strippers (which he degrades and treats as less than human) behind her back.


I have never met a man like that. (And *being a man* means I can talk more candidly with men about how they feel about women, than a woman usually can.)
Where did you happen to run across these men with a Madonna/Whore complex? 'Cuz every man I've ever met, married his wife in order to screw her living brains out.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

g_w said:


> I have never met a man like that. (And *being a man* means I can talk more candidly with men about how they feel about women, than a woman usually can.)
> Where did you happen to run across these men with a Madonna/Whore complex? 'Cuz every man I've ever met, married his wife in order to screw her living brains out.


Apparently I get out more than you do. In fact the entire Latino culture is permeated with the "fact" that men will cheat; apparently this attitude is often shared by the French and German, as well as Mediterranean cultures.

Do you have any idea how many men suffer from sex addiction? My ex briefly dated a woman whose fiance used to lock her out of the room so he could jerk off to porn. This woman was a lovely 23 year old and physically appealing.

Many men who frequent strip clubs or call escorts have this issue. I'm glad you love your wife, but men who tell their wife not to wear make-up or dress sexy, and then drool over strippers often say things like, "my wife is an excellent woman, a wonderful mother, but you know, we marry for children and our sex life not so good."


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

g_w said:


> I have never met a man like that. (And *being a man* means I can talk more candidly with men about how they feel about women, than a woman usually can.)
> Where did you happen to run across these men with a Madonna/Whore complex? 'Cuz every man I've ever met, married his wife in order to screw her living brains out.


Thats the reason? Shit... and people give me flak for being a cynic. it looks like I'm on the right track.


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

fourtines said:


> What I got out of this is that you are nuts and resentful. I am in my 30s and have had boys in their TEENS follow me around. I am extremely attractive, including to men much younger than me. I spent most of my twenties in two committed relationships, and I don't think men necessarily get more attractive with age; some do, some don't, but I know gorgeous 50 year old women and hideous 36 year old men, and vice versa.


Yep, men younger than you follow you around. Are they proposing marriage, or lusting after you? 
Illustrates one of my points: male sexual attention does not necessarily equate to willingness to commit.
As for men, they don't always need or use looks to attract women.
Looks
Athleticism
Money
Status
Power

are five drivers of attractiveness in men: and the mix of them determines what kind of women will be drawn to him; or whether they are interested in flings or LTRs.



fourtines said:


> Crossed off of women you'd marry? Sounds like a mother/whore complex.


Nope. There's a reason women get described as "the kind you'd bring to meet your family" or not.
Same thing happens the other way: you may have a fling with Roberto or Sven while vacationing overseas, but
both of you know he's not coming back to the States with you; or you may have a torrid couple of weeks with 
Harley McBadboy, but you both know you're NOT taking him to the family reunion to meet your relatives.
I just happened to describe the "Daddy/Creep" complex instead, which has been relatively unexplored.
The contrast to the usual narrative was jarring.



fourtines said:


> I'm not flaming you, I just think you're a self-righteous prig with false ideas about people who are not like you. I imagine you're trying to justify to yourself why you've been married your entire life.


No, you're not flaming me. Which is doubtless why your LEAD SENTENCE was that I'm nuts and resentful.
Ostensibly because your usual weapon of choice, shaming me for being a loser, got knocked out of your hand. 
I took care to do so.

I'm not attacking, nor judging YOU: I was aiming for the center of the modern bell curve: and noticing how many people in general are bitterly unhappy. The women can't get men to commit, the nice guys can't get female attention at all. The only people who are pleased with the modern situation are the top 5%-10% in looks of either sex, who also WANT to sleep around.
The funny part is, when they reach age 30-40, they don't understand why they can't get married, or their marriages fall apart.
And that's because, they've never trained the parts of their character which are required for marriage -- that is, how to knuckle down. (Life can throw some wicked inside fastballs; that doesn't go away just because you walk down the aisle. You'd better have someone who is committed to have your back no matter what.)



fourtines said:


> Things aren't as simple as you make them. I wish I had been able to stay with the love of my youth, but alas, he's an untreated mentally ill person.
> 
> Get over yourself. Please. Jesus.


Yup, that would suck. Either for you, *or* for him. Did he break up with you, or did you need to get a restraining order to get away?
Because I've seen and heard of both -- with either sex as the victim, btw.

Best wishes.


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

android654 said:


> Thats the reason? Shit... and people give me flak for being a cynic. it looks like I'm on the right track.


Here's the kicker. The good guys are willing to commit: and give up the chance for sex with all other women, permanently, in order to land "the one" and have her all to themselves, forever.
You know, like the old wedding vow "for richer, for poorer, forsaking all others."

Today's sexual marketplace has kinda put a damper on that, as I described.


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## Aenye (Jul 13, 2013)

Snakecharmer said:


> Listen Up, Ladies: Here's Everything Real Men Think Is Wrong With You
> 
> 
> "My wife doesn't dye her hair often enough. I don't like to see those dark roots." -Anonymous
> ...



huh, I wonder what these people look like. Is their hair dyed or naturally golden, long and thick? Are they all enhanced version Brad Pitt? I bet not.

And above all, what the hell is a 'real man' or a 'real woman'? A man or a woman that is what others want him to be?


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

fourtines said:


> Apparently I get out more than you do. In fact the entire Latino culture is permeated with the "fact" that men will cheat; apparently this attitude is often shared by the French and German, as well as Mediterranean cultures.
> 
> Do you have any idea how many men suffer from sex addiction? My ex briefly dated a woman whose fiance used to lock her out of the room so he could jerk off to porn. This woman was a lovely 23 year old and physically appealing.
> 
> Many men who frequent strip clubs or call escorts have this issue. I'm glad you love your wife, but men who tell their wife not to wear make-up or dress sexy, and then drool over strippers often say things like, "my wife is an excellent woman, a wonderful mother, but you know, we marry for children and our sex life not so good."


I have heard of the nonchalant European attitude toward sex -- from Francois Mitterand's mistress, to Silvio Berlusconi, to my first girlfriend who while an exchange student, stumbled across two people having full-on intercourse IN THE FRONT YARD of the youth hostel she was living at.
I don't see that it's done the Europeans any particular good.

Sex addiction is more problematic: as porn directly affects the dopamine centers of the brain, and presumably one can find exactly whatever fetish one wants online, whereas a live woman has opinions of her own and wants, you know, feelings and attention and stuff...OTOH, if a woman gets too demanding for attention, and won't give sex in return, then I could see a man turning to porn for the physiological release.

Incidentally, your ex with the jerking-off-to-porn instead of a 23-year-old. Was this before or after you dated him; or were *you* perchance the forlorn 23-year-old? 

That business of the wife dressed up as non-appealing and the guy goes to strippers: never heard of it, sounds like a cultural thing.
Apparently marriages of convenience or just for children were big in Europe (think many political dynasties) and it sounds like it trickled down to the other classes : or you have Elliot Spitzer in the US. (Or, Bill Clinton, or the Kennedys. Suddenly stodgy old Sarah Palin sounds like she did something right. FIVE kids! :laughing


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## FallingSlowly (Jul 1, 2013)

Oh, now we add racial/national stereotypes to the mix. I'm intrigued


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

g_w said:


> Here's the kicker. The good guys are willing to commit: and give up the chance for sex with all other women, permanently, in order to land "the one" and have her all to themselves, forever.
> You know, like the old wedding vow "for richer, for poorer, forsaking all others."
> 
> Today's sexual marketplace has kinda put a damper on that, as I described.


Call me crazy, but I thought the "good guy" makes the commitment to the right person, not just the one's that are willing. Call me crazy, but I thought marriage needed more reasons than that. Me, I personally think the modern sexual marketplace is a much needed improvement. I've got no intentions of clinging to someone because she's there, but don't mind enjoying their company and sex until we're both tired of each other. Commitment should be something that's offered rarely, not at first opportunity.


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## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

fourtines said:


> Um what about all the men who cheat? So that's ok?


Not at all. Just recounting the experiences I have had. I didn't even really count HS and college relationships. People changed partners so fast my head was spinning. Men cheated or at least I heard a lot of bitching about men cheating, at that time of life.

Later on though, past early 30s, it was almost all the women cheating, and leaving serious longterm relationships. I am not saying anything about statistics except what I personally have witnessed. 

To me it seemed the men had a rather tacit understanding of the brutal statistics concerning those early years relationships. In many cases it did seem that both the men and the women were willing to have children together. But no one except the most addicted dreamers seemed to put much stock in those first marriages or relationships. And people learned. 

What I am saying is past the typical age for human maturity, which I think is about 30, the women have been the issue in relationships I have seen. Again, not saying anything here about ALL women, just the ones I have seen.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Aenye said:


> huh, I wonder what these people look like. Is their hair dyed or naturally golden, long and thick? Are they all enhanced version Brad Pitt? I bet not.
> 
> And above all, what the hell is a 'real man' or a 'real woman'? A man or a woman that is what others want him to be?


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## Ramysa (Mar 22, 2012)

chimeric said:


> Amen on the leaving hair in the shower, though. I _hate _when women do that. (And it's mostly women, because* women are usually the ones with long hair.)
> *
> :dry:


U're wrong. Short hair , long hair, they both fall, no matter if u are a woman or a man and believe me ,_ usually_, it's men that don't clean


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

Right now this is the drama going on with some of my friends:
-One friend knocked up his girlfriend so they got married about a year ago. I think he cheated on her and knocked up another chick. They are current getting divorced.

-Another friend had a kid 2 years ago and moved in with his woman but she now kicked him out so he is living at his parents. The biggest thing is he gets drunk and rowdy fairly often.

-Another friend knew his girlfriend was secretly going off the pill to get pregnant to "solidify" their relationship. He was going to break up with her but he didn't She became pregnant and now they broke up.

Needless to say, things are getting messed up and I would be very careful before committing.


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## Aenye (Jul 13, 2013)

TreasureTower said:


>


haha! I took him as an example, because many women like him or a man with similar looks. But we know for sure these don't have an impressive personality and they looks are possibly even worse.


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

android654 said:


> Call me crazy, but I thought the "good guy" makes the commitment to the right person, not just the one's that are willing. Call me crazy, but I thought marriage needed more reasons than that. Me, I personally think the modern sexual marketplace is a much needed improvement. I've got no intentions of clinging to someone because she's there, but don't mind enjoying their company and sex until we're both tired of each other. Commitment should be something that's offered rarely, not at first opportunity.


We seem to have miscommunicated. Do you happen to be familiar with the phrase "I think [he/she] is 'the one' "? (i.e. the soulmate, the one I want to marry, the girl of my dreams, Mr. Right)...
Not merely "willing."

And of course it shouldn't be the first opportunity, unless you legitimately *know* that they are 'the one' : and if someone is your first crush / limerence / love, it is easy to mistake that excitement for "the one."

Trying to hone *my* communication skills, I am.

If you want to enjoy companionship and sex until you're both tired of each other, be aware that marriage is not meant to be "as long as we both shall love" : and if you get *used* to relationships being "at will" it may affect the adjustment to marriage.


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## loving2011 (Nov 6, 2012)

fourtines said:


> Research Madonna/Whore complex. It's the entire basis for men dictating that their wives be simple, even plain, not wear make-up, while they secretly cheat, see hookers, or watch porn...making the wife simultaneously feel guilty for looking "sexy" but then punishing her by denying her sex since she isn't the whore, but the mother.
> 
> It's all pretty gross. It explains why some men will treat a woman like garbage while sexually desiring her strongly....or marry a woman or treat a girlfriend well, even while he cheats on her sexually.
> 
> ...


Trust me, I know all about the madonna/whore complex as a minority woman.  Yes, some men do want their wives/girlfriends to look different than what they sexually desire. 

To me, I would want my partner to look hot. I enjoy others complimenting them. I loved it when other women would say my ex-boyfriend was cute.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

g_w said:


> We seem to have miscommunicated. Do you happen to be familiar with the phrase "I think [he/she] is 'the one' "? (i.e. the soulmate, the one I want to marry, the girl of my dreams, Mr. Right)...
> Not merely "willing."
> 
> And of course it shouldn't be the first opportunity, unless you legitimately *know* that they are 'the one' : and if someone is your first crush / limerence / love, it is easy to mistake that excitement for "the one."
> ...


Ok, we may have miscommunication.

Yes, I am aware of the many designations of "soulmate" but I find it difficult to truly believe one can figure that out without exploring other options first. If 'the one' and the first are one in the same, then I find it dubious. But is neither here nor there.

Also, I thought limmerence was when you didn't have it but want it. Sounds more anxiety ridden than exciting.



> If you want to enjoy companionship and sex until you're both tired of each other, be aware that marriage is not meant to be "as long as we both shall love" : and if you get *used* to relationships being "at will" it may affect the adjustment to marriage.


I'm just very casual about things, enjoy people as they are for their company until things tire out or she wants something that I'm not willing nor able to give. I'm already not big on the idea of marriage--I've been privy to too many examples from a plethora of people to thoroughly convince me that it working out is a true rarity--but any candidate that would fit that hasn't come along, so why not just fuck around? That's just how I see it.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

@Snakecharmer
I haven't read the whole thread, but thanks for the laugh. It's funny how women are expected to be so pretty all the time, yet are also criticized if we're too vain. 

(But yeah, the leaving-in-the-shower-thing is kind of gross =P)


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Donovan said:


> lol, yeah.
> 
> i was talking to this with a friend (female), and she said it has more to do with partly attracting male attention (feeling good about self--which there is nothing wrong with, i know that i feel good when i get female attention), but that it has more to do with female competition, and the comparisons she/others make while out and about. basically, comparing themselves to others, and having someone else who tries harder or is naturally more "gifted" in the current social sense taking precedence (either in their own head, or by actually seeing the reactions in other men and that in itself having an effect upon them/her).


We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are. - Anais Nin

She can only speak for herself. That's really not how I am with other women. I like attention, but I'm not comparing myself with other women. Never did. I haven't had difficulty with other women's cattiness or batshit crazy ex's because I steered clear of those that complain the most about. Like attracts like. Birds of a feather flock together and all that jazz. You don't have to deal with that shit. It's mostly avoidable.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

series0 said:


> Not at all. Just recounting the experiences I have had. I didn't even really count HS and college relationships. People changed partners so fast my head was spinning. Men cheated or at least I heard a lot of bitching about men cheating, at that time of life.
> 
> Later on though, past early 30s, it was almost all the women cheating, and leaving serious longterm relationships. I am not saying anything about statistics except what I personally have witnessed.
> 
> ...


That makes me wonder about your friends and what kind of wives they choose and for what reason. Did they attempt to woo younger women with money, and is this the issue, or are they all approximately reasonably around the same age, give or take five years and appeared to marry for love?

In my experience of my high school friends who married young, as well as older female relatives, and male clients as an entertainer, most cheaters were men. Except for my sister and she is Amy Winehouse reincarnated, so she frequently does inappropriate but opportunistic things so it's in line with her over all character as an individual.

Of course some women cheat, but I feel there must be some unusual reason all your friends wives are cheating.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

g_w said:


> Yep, men younger than you follow you around. Are they proposing marriage, or lusting after you?
> Illustrates one of my points: male sexual attention does not necessarily equate to willingness to commit.
> As for men, they don't always need or use looks to attract women.
> Looks
> ...


Your world view is comically black and white. You are clearly sheltered and old. Im not sure I hate any thing more than an old sheltered person. At least young people have meager age as an excuse.

While I agree that people need to learn commitment, its not as simplified as you wish it were.

I left my ex after six years because he is randomly violent and it's due to mental illness its not his overall character. I never filed a restraining order and even told him I would return had he consistently saw a therapist.


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## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

fourtines said:


> That makes me wonder about your friends and what kind of wives they choose and for what reason. Did they attempt to woo younger women with money, and is this the issue, or are they all approximately reasonably around the same age, give or take five years and appeared to marry for love?
> 
> In my experience of my high school friends who married young, as well as older female relatives, and male clients as an entertainer, most cheaters were men. Except for my sister and she is Amy Winehouse reincarnated, so she frequently does inappropriate but opportunistic things so it's in line with her over all character as an individual.
> 
> Of course some women cheat, but I feel there must be some unusual reason all your friends wives are cheating.


Well the only thing I can conjecture as to why is that I am from a socioeconomic part of the United States that is very depressed. It's still middle class, but only because it thinks it is, if you catch my drift. 

In most cases the early relationship were supposedly about love, but, young people are idiots and marry without knowing themselves far more often than people who have a few decades under their belts. The thing is this early group got to have kids at what I like to call - a normal human age for procreation. 

Most of the rascal men settled down and even a few of the women were on their second marriage or life partner by their mid to late 30s. In these cases you could usually tell that both parties at the start had at least some concept of being partners for life. 

Still in most of these marriages the age was traditional in terms of differences, men older, sometimes by as much as 10 years than the woman. In each of these cases the women cheating did so because they had had their children and wanted to play around and climb the socioeconomic ladder. They were tired of money troubles despite the fact that their men were usually hard workers and fairly loving. Most of the men involved had trouble with being as passionate or non-workaholic as their women needed. The women were waking up to that need. They saw wealthier men as men more able to devote time to them (hahahahhahaha). 

Only in 1 case was it just sheer sleeping around for the hell of it. Even then it was to find passion in as many places as she could. And during all this my own experience with being propositioned by most of these married women was staggering. There are still quite a few stories as yet to play out on that account. As I mentioned before, very sad.

Other than apparently online where I cannot confirm the veracity of the claim, I encounter very few mature women who don't have kids from a bad boy gone wrong relationship or a cuckolded and extremely angry but genuine guy they left in a childish bout of passion-seeking. Neither bird is one I wish to fly with. Leaves me very jaded about the choices out there.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

g_w said:


> I have heard of the nonchalant European attitude toward sex -- from Francois Mitterand's mistress, to Silvio Berlusconi, to my first girlfriend who while an exchange student, stumbled across two people having full-on intercourse IN THE FRONT YARD of the youth hostel she was living at.
> I don't see that it's done the Europeans any particular good.
> 
> Sex addiction is more problematic: as porn directly affects the dopamine centers of the brain, and presumably one can find exactly whatever fetish one wants online, whereas a live woman has opinions of her own and wants, you know, feelings and attention and stuff...OTOH, if a woman gets too demanding for attention, and won't give sex in return, then I could see a man turning to porn for the physiological release.
> ...


I wasn't talking about my ex. I said he once briefly dated a woman whose fiance had a porn addiction. Since you couldn't be bothered to read my post correctly ill be on my way, since it compounds my opinion of you after the Sarah Palin comment. Did you drop out of high school to get married? Sarah Palin?


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

series0 said:


> Well the only thing I can conjecture as to why is that I am from a socioeconomic part of the United States that is very depressed. It's still middle class, but only because it thinks it is, if you catch my drift.
> 
> In most cases the early relationship were supposedly about love, but, young people are idiots and marry without knowing themselves far more often than people who have a few decades under their belts. The thing is this early group got to have kids at what I like to call - a normal human age for procreation.
> 
> ...


So the men aren't responsible at all. For ignoring their wives or not satisfying them sexually. I would also call an age difference of ten years a potential problem in a marriage depending on the age of the younger person when they married. At 40 and 50 or even 30 and 40 not as much of a problem as 20 and 30 or 18 and 28.

The problem you describe sounds principally socioeconomic. Women used to resign them selves to misery while the men cheated. I guess these women are really fleeing their socioeconomic trap after impulsively having children.

For you I would suggest dating women with out children. Problem solved for you.

I often avoid men with children unless they are a very good parent, and usually still then it is not my preference, also due to my socioeconomic background. Children equal hell for the lower classes unless they genuinely love children and dreamt of being a parent above all else..


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Just to be clear, I personally don't think having five children is a magnificent achievement, and it certainly isn't indicative of anything. Some statistics show that more intelligent women actually have less children, not more. The smartest thing my mom ever did was get her tubes tied and divorce her first two husbands. In a different world, my mother would have been like me, I know. That's why my grandfather worked so effing hard to educate me. He saw his intelligent daughter value herself enough to leave men who treated her badly and saw me as his chance to fix her life. She is why I had the strength to leave my ex, though I think my aversion to parenting comes from my father.

Just like a man, I can spend my creativity elsewhere.


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## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

fourtines said:


> So the men aren't responsible at all. For ignoring their wives or not satisfying them sexually. I would also call an age difference of ten years a potential problem in a marriage depending on the age of the younger person when they married. At 40 and 50 or even 30 and 40 not as much of a problem as 20 and 30 or 18 and 28.
> 
> The problem you describe sounds principally socioeconomic. Women used to resign them selves to misery while the men cheated. I guess these women are really fleeing their socioeconomic trap after impulsively having children.
> 
> ...


I agree with this in general regarding the women, but, we all have our issues, and most of these guys were pretty good fellows and mature, just not wealthy or overly capable with passion. 

Yeah, where I live there are not many women my age who don't have kids. Very few indeed who are not by that same token looking to marry wealth and live an idle or distracted life. I used to make that kind of money but my values and strong personality drove me out of the stable career game. Not sure how to proceed, but that is a topic for another thread.


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

fourtines said:


> Your world view is comically black and white.


There is a difference between moral consequences and practical consequences and emotional consequences. They all operate on different spheres.
My world view is that a lot of what happens to us is conditioned by our behaviour, regardless of our rationalizations; reality doesn't care *what* your worldview is. Life doesn't grade on the curve and there is real inequality. A lot of the inequality is based on things out of our immediate, or short-term control, and can only be changed after arduous work. 


fourtines said:


> You are clearly sheltered and old.


I'm old, but I'm not sheltered; if I told you half of my life story, your eyeballs would melt.


fourtines said:


> Im not sure I hate any thing more than an old sheltered person.


Haters gonna hate. I'm not surprised.


fourtines said:


> At least young people have meager age as an excuse.


You may take it as an excuse from being looked down upon or judged...but life doesn't grade on the curve.
Judgement comes from experience and experience from bad judgement.
But you can short-circuit the process by learning from other peoples' mistakes: or better yet (which never seems to occur to people) from their *successes*. Instead of avoiding failure, pursue excellence proactively.


fourtines said:


> While I agree that people need to learn commitment, its not as simplified as you wish it were.
> I left my ex after six years because he is randomly violent and it's due to mental illness its not his overall character. I never filed a restraining order and even told him I would return had he consistently saw a therapist.


Yep, as I mentioned, that would suck. I applaud you for that: one of the worst things about mental illness for the sufferer is that their very *means* of assessing where they are in relation to other people, is broken; and for those around them, the unpredictability or all-consuming-ness devours all the energy which could be spent building, just in an attempt to stay afloat.
I didn't accuse *you* of lacking commitment. I pointed out that our society no longer values or teaches commitment. Older women no longer counsel and shame younger women into sticking with a man through thick and thin; older men no longer (or, very rarely) counsel and shame younger men into being a strong rock for their wife.
Like I said, center of the bell curve. Too many people are heartbroken and scarred for life because of playing with sex and relationships without realizing how many very deep issues of self-worth and trust get brought in.


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

fourtines said:


> I wasn't talking about my ex. I said he once briefly dated a woman whose fiance had a porn addiction. Since you couldn't be bothered to read my post correctly ill be on my way, since it compounds my opinion of you after the Sarah Palin comment. Did you drop out of high school to get married? Sarah Palin?


OK. Many people on these threads tell stories of the "I had a friend who did X" in order to sanitize or render anonymous their own experiences. 
I kinda figured you'd react the way you did to Sarah Palin, I put it in as a litmus test. In my experience no woman who is an 8 or higher has ever trashed Sarah Palin, even if disagreeing with her politics. And remember that she's over 50 and had 5 kids and is still a looker.
No, I didn't drop out of high school to get married, nor was my wife pregnant when we got married. 
We were both virgins at marriage.
I didn't drop out of high school either; I have a PhD in molecular physics and got married in grad school.


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

fourtines said:


> I wasn't talking about my ex. I said he once briefly dated a woman whose fiance had a porn addiction. Since you couldn't be bothered to read my post correctly ill be on my way, since it compounds my opinion of you after the Sarah Palin comment. Did you drop out of high school to get married? Sarah Palin?


Oh, by the way. Why didn't you condemn the Kennedys for their philandering, Bill Clinton for lying through his foul teeth on national TV about cheating on his wife with someone young enough to be his daughter, or Eliot Spitzer for humiliating his wife by having a "marriage of convenience" while he cavorted with $5,000/night young prostitutes -- all of whom went to Ivy League schools and are therefore the equivalent of the "arranged fake marriage with mistresses" upper-crust Europeans but you jumped all over Sarah Palin, who married young but stayed with her husband, had *five* kids with him, and climbed the ladder on her own merits?

I thought you valued men who remain committed to their wives, and all that. And wanted women to make it on their own--Palin became governor of a state and a VP candidate: with tons more visibility and professionalism than her backwards, blue-collar husband. She obviously didn't stay barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen...so why the contempt for her?


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

fourtines said:


> Just to be clear, I personally don't think having five children is a magnificent achievement, and it certainly isn't indicative of anything. Some statistics show that more intelligent women actually have less children, not more. The smartest thing my mom ever did was get her tubes tied and divorce her first two husbands. In a different world, my mother would have been like me, I know. That's why my grandfather worked so effing hard to educate me. He saw his intelligent daughter value herself enough to leave men who treated her badly and saw me as his chance to fix her life. She is why I had the strength to leave my ex, though I think my aversion to parenting comes from my father.
> 
> Just like a man, I can spend my creativity elsewhere.


LOL! Mrrrow pfffft hisss!
I *mention* Sarah Palin and you go ballistic.
Todd obviously wasn't off cheating on her like the other influential male politicians I mentioned.
And five children are a pretty good indication that they spent, ahem, quality time *together*.
Because every picture I've seen of them, she looks 
a) radiantly happy
b) like the moment they're away from the camera, she's gonna jump his bones
...most decidedly *NOT* bitter like, say, Hillary Clinton, whose husband patented the phrase "it depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is " to try to talk his way out of cheating on her.
So there are men who don't cheat. Why does seeing a happy public figure bother you? I think we need more examples like that.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

g_w said:


> OK. Many people on these threads tell stories of the "I had a friend who did X" in order to sanitize or render anonymous their own experiences.
> I kinda figured you'd react the way you did to Sarah Palin, I put it in as a litmus test. In my experience no woman who is an 8 or higher has ever trashed Sarah Palin, even if disagreeing with her politics. And remember that she's over 50 and had 5 kids and is still a looker.
> No, I didn't drop out of high school to get married, nor was my wife pregnant when we got married.
> We were both virgins at marriage.
> I didn't drop out of high school either; I have a PhD in molecular physics and got married in grad school.


Any woman who is above an eight? Im in magazines. You are awfully dumb for someone with a PhD since it apparently never occurred to you that people trash Sarah Palin because she has terrible out dated damaging political views, and that having lots of children is not the pinnacle goal of all women's lives. Nor is early marriage necessarily advantageous to all women, to some it is potentially life destroying. Now if you will please excuse me I will go spend my time talking to someone who is not a huge misogynist.


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

fourtines said:


> Any woman who is above an eight? Im in magazines. You are awfully dumb for someone with a PhD since it apparently never occurred to you that people trash Sarah Palin because she has terrible out dated damaging political views, and that having lots of children is not the pinnacle goal of all women's lives. Nor is early marriage necessarily advantageous to all women, to some it is potentially life destroying. Now if you will please excuse me I will go spend my time talking to someone who is not a huge misogynist.


Yeah, I stand by my statement about the eights and above.
Women trashed Sarah Palin because she was both personable and attractive, and succeed in the man's world of politics (without an Ivy League pedigree -- as pointed out by quadriplegic commentator and Harvard-MD psychiatrist Charles Krauthammer).
You can hardly argue that she rode her husband's political coat-tails, or put up with his philandering to secure upward mobility, as did Hillary Clinton. Nor is it clear how her views are "outdated" -- her own life shows that she doesn't want women "barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen".
Her having *five* children was mentioned as a testimony to the commitment to each other that she and Todd share; since all too many politicians end up cheating on their spouse.
I agree that early marriage is fraught with peril: but so is early sex outside of marriage, though for somewhat different reasons.
Palin's own daughter is an illustration of *that*...!
BTW, check out the dictionary definition of misogynist: someone who hates women. May I suggest that you take your ire out on Bill Clinton...?


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## AlwaysQuestionLife (Apr 17, 2013)

That article is pretty amusing. Then again I think anyone who has feminist inclinations agrees.

And I have definitely heard almost all of these being said in one way or another before. They really are not bizarre or out of the ordinary. People do say these things.

It was an amusing minute or so of my life, thanks!


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## Pirate (Jan 2, 2013)

Lets not pretend that the "perfection" thing is gender specific. Perhaps uneven, but it does go both ways. I'm supposed to muscular and toned (though not to much or its gross) but if I spend 2 hours a day at the gym maintaining that look/level of ability on top of work then I'm not spending enough time with her. Our (western) culture is crappy all around. For the record though, there is nothing wrong with wanting to look good for a/to attract a partner, for either gender.


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## Pirate (Jan 2, 2013)

Also, this thread tends to assign motives to people who's motives are not known. Some/all of the men who's comments are mocked/derided might actually not care as they claim. I (the individual with the preference) care (to an extent) to be certain, but thats not indicative of anyone but me (the individual with the preference.)


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

g_w said:


> Yeah, I stand by my statement about the eights and above.
> Women trashed Sarah Palin because she was both personable and attractive, and succeed in the man's world of politics (without an Ivy League pedigree -- as pointed out by quadriplegic commentator and Harvard-MD psychiatrist Charles Krauthammer).
> You can hardly argue that she rode her husband's political coat-tails, or put up with his philandering to secure upward mobility, as did Hillary Clinton. Nor is it clear how her views are "outdated" -- her own life shows that she doesn't want women "barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen".
> Her having *five* children was mentioned as a testimony to the commitment to each other that she and Todd share; since all too many politicians end up cheating on their spouse.
> ...


For the record: Sarah Palin looks like a foot, having five kids really says nothing about the health of a relationship, becoming an elected official isn't a sure measure of success (especially when it's state and your appointment to a running positioon is cited as one of the biggest political blunders in us history)


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## Pirate (Jan 2, 2013)

I cite you post as the biggest blunder in world history. Is it now true? Success is subjective, but if her goal as a politician was to secure political power (for whatever reason,) she has done more than most and its hard to call that a failure compared to the millions of people who've never gotten past petty officials at the city level.


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