# hetero men, would you date a trans woman who is beautiful?



## Feral sheep

they already went through transition and they look nothing like a man, they look hot as a female.
would you ever date and be more with one? say they are celebrity beautiful btw there are some out there


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## LotusBlossom

I don't think the trans-lady's beauty would make up for the fact that they were once males, and this is something I think a lot of hetero guys cannot seem to look past or accept...


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## Naama

they are still men, even if they had their penis cut off, had silicone to their man boobs bigger and ate some female hormones. and if a man dates a man, its not hetero. i am hetero, so i wouldnt do this.


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## Mutatio NOmenis

I'm sorry, but the idea of kissing a guy, even a now-women squicks me right out. I have to say no.


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## LotusBlossom

^^ Uhmm (To Naama)...it's not really that simple, you know... :/

...but what do I know


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## Feral sheep

ah so if a person dates a trans and cause they were extremely attracted to her because she does look like a women, a beautiful woman that he would be gay? or he would be gay for coming to awareness of this persons former past and still dating her?


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## Vaan

Feral sheep said:


> ah so if a person dates a trans and cause they were extremely attracted to her because she does look like a women, a beautiful woman that he would be gay? or he would be gay for coming to awareness of this persons former past and still dating her?


Pretty much ^^, thats the mentality of most guys. For me i'm neutral, i'm not into sex much so it dosen't apply much to me ^^


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## NekoNinja

It wouldn't really bother me, I would date one without a problem. But I consider myself to be much more open minded than most people.


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## Fizz

Feral sheep said:


> ah so if a person dates a trans and cause they were extremely attracted to her because she does look like a women, a beautiful woman that he would be gay?


It would "make" them "gay" because she used to be biologically male. I would believe most males would be afraid of the social stigma of dating a transsexual as well. Even though it's already hard enough for trans people, they're discriminated against freely by most anyone, even doctors.

I would assume that most males would also think about how their friends, family, and coworkers would react. It could cause them to be ostracized from friends, family, and generally the society if it gets out.

Also to add, if the male was looking for a LTR and/or marriage, the trans person would be incapable of carrying a child as they would not have a uterus + all that other good stuff.



Feral sheep said:


> or he would be gay for coming to awareness of this persons former past and still dating her?


This question confuses me. The accusation of being homosexual would be placed upon the person because the trans person was biologically male. Even after all the hormone treatments, transition, etc.

In most societies, people love labels. They're very black and white, so they would not even go as far to accept to call the biological male partner, bisexual or pansexual. Those terms are more correct than labeling them homosexual or heterosexual.


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## Feral sheep

Fizz said:


> It would "make" them "gay" because she used to be biologically male. I would believe most males would be afraid of the social stigma of dating a transsexual as well. Even though it's already hard enough for trans people, they're discriminated against freely by most anyone, even doctors.
> 
> I would assume that most males would also think about how their friends, family, and coworkers would react. It could cause them to be ostracized from friends, family, and generally the society if it gets out.
> 
> Also to add, if the male was looking for a LTR and/or marriage, the trans person would be incapable of carrying a child as they would not have a uterus + all that other good stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> This question confuses me. The accusation of being homosexual would be placed upon the person because the trans person was biologically male. Even after all the hormone treatments, transition, etc.
> 
> In most societies, people love labels. They're very black and white, so they would not even go as far to accept to call the biological male partner, bisexual or pansexual. Those terms are more correct than labeling them homosexual or heterosexual.


if the person kept her cock however and the hetero demanded his prostate massaged on a daily basis with all 9` with said member then he might be gay. gay guys want the WHOLE package, they also want masculinity and its hard to see masculine with boobs flopping around.


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## tuna

Naama said:


> they are still men, even if they had their penis cut off, had silicone to their man boobs bigger and ate some female hormones.


no, they would be a woman who happened to have been born with a penis.




Feral sheep said:


> if the tranny kept her cock however and he demanded his prostate massaged on a daily basis with all 9` with said member then he might be gay. gay guys want the WHOLE package, they also want masculinity and its hard to see masculine with boobs flopping around.


"tranny" is pretty offensive, dudebro. and this hypothetical person is _female_, so using "he" doesn't make sense.


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## Feral sheep

tuna said:


> no, they would be a woman who happened to have been born with a penis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "tranny" is pretty offensive, dudebro. and this hypothetical person is _female_, so using "he" doesn't make sense.


your right, let me correct that


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## Fizz

Feral sheep said:


> if the person kept her cock however and the hetero demanded his prostate massaged on a daily basis with all 9` with said member then he might be gay. gay guys want the WHOLE package, they also want masculinity and its hard to see masculine with boobs flopping around.


At least you edited this before I got to reply, I read the other version and it didn't make sense.

Why the 360 on this now? The tone of this comes off as satirizing transsexuals and males who choose to be in a relationship with them. A male requesting his prostate to be massaged doesn't make him homosexual or heterosexual. It's a pleasurable act. I don't think it needs to be defined as homosexual or heterosexual, that's boxing things up into categories to appease others. It's not any of my business if a biological male is in a relationship with a transsexual female.

The main problem here seems to be people who want to have these labels put upon others so that they can feel justified or comfortable for whatever reason. As I've mentioned, the biological male could be pansexual. Which is an attraction to people of all gender identities and biological sexes.


Why do you personally have interest in this topic, @Feral sheep?


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## Naama

tuna said:


> no, they would be a woman who happened to have been born with a penis.


imo gender is more than just penis/no penis


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## Fizz

Naama said:


> imo gender is more than just penis/no penis


There's a difference between sex and gender. I'm not sure which one you're intending to use.


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## tuna

Naama said:


> imo gender is more than just penis/no penis


gender has nothing to with genitalia. men can be born with vulvae and women can be born with penises. ~cutting off a penis~ does not change a person's gender, whether they are female or male, because gender =/= genitalia. it doesn't change their sex, either, because removing a person's penis doesn't alter their chromosomes.

this particular hypothetical person is a woman, not a man, so saying "they are still a man" is not correct. you are misgendering them.


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## Naama

tuna said:


> because removing a person's penis doesn't alter their chromosomes.


exactly, this is why born male = male, no matter how much you go through sex change operations. these operations can only make you seem like you are different sex than what you were born with, but its not the real thing, and the real thing is what matters to me. i cant make babies with someone who was born male, unless they invent some test tube that they can stick up to his ass, but again, thats not the real thing


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## tuna

Naama said:


> exactly, this is why born male = male, no matter how much you go through sex change operations. these operations can only make you seem like you are different sex than what you were born with, but its not the real thing, and the real thing is what matters to me.


but a transwoman is born _female_, not male. she has never been male. she may have been born with a penis, but she is female-gendered.

are you confusing gender and sex?


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## DarkyNWO

It's so fun when men are going "You are doing that? Thats SO gay!!"


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## Feral sheep

Fizz said:


> At least you edited this before I got to reply, I read the other version and it didn't make sense.
> 
> Why the 360 on this now? The tone of this comes off as satirizing transsexuals and males who choose to be in a relationship with them. A male requesting his prostate to be massaged doesn't make him homosexual or heterosexual. It's a pleasurable act. I don't think it needs to be defined as homosexual or heterosexual, that's boxing things up into categories to appease others. It's not any of my business if a biological male is in a relationship with a transsexual female.
> 
> The main problem here seems to be people who want to have these labels put upon others so that they can feel justified or comfortable for whatever reason. As I've mentioned, the biological male could be pansexual. Which is an attraction to people of all gender identities and biological sexes.
> 
> 
> *Why do you personally have interest in this topic, *@_Feral sheep_ ?


Im interested in understanding roles and relationships and the complications that occur along the way, and the many different kinds of experiences people have, I have noticed its a complicated situation that does not pan out well, its complex in that people who opt for surgery become less appealing to gay men and end up not that much appealing to heteros as well. they fall into a gap, in attempt to reconcile their outward appearance with their inner self. 

I have gaps in my thinking and understanding as well as a few wrinkles in thoughts, hopefully those gaps are filled in and maybe those wrinkles get ironed out



btw, any threads on being pansexual?


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## Fizz

sofort99 said:


> I always suspected the whole "women in pants" thing was just a plot against women. Women are not built for pants, and maybe 1 in 10 actually looks decent wearing them.
> 
> It's part of the fashion industry's master plan to make women look as unattractive as possible.


You're a skirt/dress fan? I personally don't care for them as they aren't as comfortable in my opinion, but they do have that "quick" appeal. I don't even have to imply anything, it speaks for itself.


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## Naama

skycloud86 said:


> Don't confuse me with yourself.
> 
> Seriously though, I'm not just posting the first thing that comes into my head, and that is obvious to everyone but you.


sure the first thing that popped into your head wasnt "i must argue!!!"?


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## skycloud86

sofort99 said:


> I always suspected the whole "women in pants" thing was just a plot against women. Women are not built for pants, and maybe 1 in 10 actually looks decent wearing them.


They are more suitable for women than they are for men, due to our having genitals that hang outside of the body. It's also incredibly sexist to assume that women are wearing clothes just for the viewing pleasure of men.



> It's part of the fashion industry's master plan to make women look as unattractive as possible.


Of course it is. that's why the fashion industry makes women's trousers without any real pockets so they accentuate the hips and bottom, to make women look as unattractive as possible.


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## Kr3m1in

ethereal, so your reply is FUCK NO, but yes?

that's one unique stand, pumpkin..

rock on..


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## sofort99

Fizz said:


> You're a skirt/dress fan? I personally don't care for them as they aren't as comfortable in my opinion, but they do have that "quick" appeal. I don't even have to imply anything, it speaks for itself.


Really?
Hell, in the summer *I'll* wear a kilt or a sarong just for the comfort.


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## skycloud86

Naama said:


> sure the first thing that popped into your head wasnt "i must argue!!!"?


No, the first thing that popped into my mind was that your opinions are poorly thought out, have very little basis in reality and required someone to point out their fatal flaws.


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## Fizz

sofort99 said:


> Really?
> Hell, in the summer *I'll* wear a kilt or a sarong just for the comfort.


Sarongs feel oh so _right_.


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## etherealuntouaswithin

Kr3m1in said:


> ethereal, so your reply is FUCK NO, but yes?
> 
> that's one unique stand, pumpkin..
> 
> rock on..


Read it again.Stop misinterpreting my posts and really take a look.


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## LiquidCool

Feral sheep said:


> they already went through transition and they look nothing like a man, they look hot as a female.
> would you ever date and be more with one? say they are celebrity beautiful btw there are some out there


Not intentionally. She wouldn't be able to carry and give birth to a child.


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## skycloud86

DvlHk said:


> Not intentionally. She wouldn't be to carry and give birth to a child.


A lot of genetic women can't carry or give birth to a child either.


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## killerB

I married a TG male whom wanted to be a woman. It was painfull to watch the struggle daily to be comfortable with his own body. To mourn what he was not born with. To yearn for it. I happen to be lesbian, so it really did not matter to me, however, it seems to be different with men. They think that falling in love with the person, if that person happens to be TG, makes them gay. It makes me sad that people are so worried about that. Why can't love just happen and be ok, in any form?


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## LiquidCool

skycloud86 said:


> A lot of genetic women can't carry or give birth to a child either.


If you are dating for the purpose of finding a woman to (eventually) marry and (eventually) have kids with, then it's a moot point.


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## Mr.Xl Vii

I find myself very open minded, but I would not date a transgendered woman. I have a friend that's bi and would LOVE to date a transwoman, but I personally couldn't get passed it. I understand they're mentally female, and I get that they pretty much look like a female, and surgery now a days is good enough to fool some gynos. With all that said, once I became aware of the fact that she was once outwardly a male, I probably couldn't look past it. I would give it a try, but I know I couldn't do it.

I dont think it makes me gay in any way, but if I went into a relationship with a female in mind, it just seems "off" after that. I dont know how to explain it.


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## Fizz

Mr.Xl Vii said:


> I find myself very open minded, but I would not date a transgendered woman. I have a friend that's bi and would LOVE to date a transwoman, but I personally couldn't get passed it. I understand they're mentally female, and I get that they pretty much look like a female, *and surgery now a days is good enough to fool some gynos.* With all that said, once I became aware of the fact that she was once outwardly a male, I probably couldn't look past it. I would give it a try, but I know I couldn't do it.
> 
> I dont think it makes me gay in any way, but if I went into a relationship with a female in mind, it just seems "off" after that. I dont know how to explain it.


Those gynos would have to be blind or know nothing of the biological female anatomy. I've seen the genitals that surgeons can construct and the practice is still in its infancy. They cannot create the parts to look exactly like female anatomy. I've actually read a bit on the subject because I wanted to know how they created the "parts".

For the MtF, they remove part of the lower intestines to make room for the vaginal canal which is made out of the skin of the former penis. Sometimes the head is constructed into a clitoris. It depends upon how good the surgeon is though. As for FtM, it's a lot more work. The term often used is, "It's easier to poke a hole than build a pole." - that's what happened to infants born with ambiguous genitalia.


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## Kriash

Most heterosexual men would probably find it hard to deal with. I would say that I am attracted to men( I'm gay), but if I was in a relationship with a guy who I was really in love with, and could see myself spending my life with, and he told me he wanted to become a woman, and wanted to stay with me through the process, I would most likely continue our relationship, and even if our relationship ended, I would be there for him whenever he needed me. Also, I would date a transman, I think that love is love, and if I fall in love with you, it doesn't really matter what hardware you're working with.

For some reason a lot of people feel like they've been deceived whenever they date a person who transitioned from one sex to the other. But many trans people do not see it that way as they never saw themselves as the gender they were born. So when they tell you they are female, they aren't trying to lie to you, that's who they've always been.

Just what I think on the matter.


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## NekoNinja

DvlHk said:


> If you are dating for the purpose of finding a woman to (eventually) marry and (eventually) have kids with, then it's a moot point.


Adopted kids need homes as well. And generally you may not know that you can't have kids until you are already married and trying to have kids. So what would you do then? Leave her because she can't have them?


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## Arclight

The possibility exists, I suppose, for feelings.
I would not be able to obey these feelings.. Something would always be there in the back of my mind.


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## Mr.Xl Vii

Fizz said:


> Those gynos would have to be blind or know nothing of the biological female anatomy. I've seen the genitals that surgeons can construct and the practice is still in its infancy. They cannot create the parts to look exactly like female anatomy. I've actually read a bit on the subject because I wanted to know how they created the "parts".
> 
> For the MtF, they remove part of the lower intestines to make room for the vaginal canal which is made out of the skin of the former penis. Sometimes the head is constructed into a clitoris. It depends upon how good the surgeon is though. As for FtM, it's a lot more work. The term often used is, "It's easier to poke a hole than build a pole." - that's what happened to infants born with ambiguous genitalia.


Well in general we're talking about MtF, and I said *some* because obviously any competent doctor that is also paying attention can notice, but at the same time, I'm sure you could sneak one by.


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## LiquidCool

NekoNinja said:


> Adopted kids need homes as well. And generally you may not know that you can't have kids until you are already married and trying to have kids. So what would you do then? Leave her because she can't have them?


1) The original post only asks about MtF. (Given)
2) Having the female reproduction system is a threshold issue to determining if a person can carry and give birth to a child. (Given)
3) Based on (2), if she lacks the female reproduction system, then she cannot carry and give birth to a child.
4) If she is MtF, then she inherently lacks the female reproduction system. (Given)
5) Based on (3) and (4), if she is MtF, then she inherently cannot carry and give birth to a child.
6) If she has the female reproduction system, then she is not MtF. (Given)
7) Based on (1) - (6), posts that are not about MtF are irrelevant within this thread.
8) Based on (7), she is MtF.
9) Based on (5) and (8), she inherently cannot carry and give birth to a child. 
10) In order to have a wife, you must get married. (Given)
11) Based on (2) and (10), in order to sexually reproduce ("have kids") with your wife, you must marry someone who (as a threshold issue) has the female reproduction system.
12) Based on (4) and (11), if you want to "have kids" with your wife, then you aren't going to knowingly marry a person that is MtF.
13) In order to intentionally marry a person that is MtF, then you would need to know that she is MtF. (Given)
14) Based on (8), (12), and (13), you aren't going to intentionally marry her.
15) You should know if she is MtF before getting engaged. (Given)
16) You should know if she is MtF before getting married. (Given)
17) Based on (14), (15), and (16), you shouldn't get engaged to her, much less married to her.
18) My initial response to the original post was: "Not intentionally. She wouldn't be able to carry and give birth to a child."
19) Based on (14) and (18), QED

As to your comment: See (5), (7), and (8). My guess is that you didn't track the responses back to my initial post in this thread. Perhaps start a different thread to address the topic? It presents a much different scenario. No joke about adoption, either.


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## MissJordan

It would sufficiently creep me out, yes.

I get 'turned off' girls with little notice.
If a girl proves she's annoying or stupid, I stop thinking of her in _that _way.

I'd say it would be the same for a former-man.


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## Fizz

Naama said:


> like for example would you date someone who had a history of hard core hard drug using, who has had mental issues because of it and who used to rape both men and women from children to grannies?
> 
> ps. im not comparing males who had sex change operation to former drug addicts with mental illnesses and who used to rape people. im just using it just an example as a deal braker, so dont start me with that please.


All I really have to say is, what the fucking fuck?


What I want to say is, WOW. You're _not_ comparing trans-people to drug addicted mentally ill rapists even though you _just_ compared them to them? You put them on the same level as drug addicted mentally ill rapists. You clearly despise trans-people to that degree.

Who the hell in their right mind would forgive someone who was a rapist? That's one of the least forgivable things in my book. Drug addiction is horrible, but some people can make it past that. Everyone has their demons. Mental illness is part genetics and part environment, I can't blame people for what they can't control. I don't hate on people with cancer, it's not like they purposefully chose that.


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## Fizz

vivacissimamente said:


> Cool. A real-life example of violence against a transperson.
> 
> LOL?
> 
> :mellow:


AHAHAHA. Don't you get it? It's really...just fucking despicable. :mellow:


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## android654

vivacissimamente said:


> Cool. A real-life example of violence against a transperson.
> 
> LOL?
> 
> :mellow:


His accounting was funny. His dumbfounded nature was funny. His disbelief was funny. 

If I saw the person in the story of course I'm not going to laugh in her face about what happened, but to hear him tell this story and not even smirk is either a lack of sense of humor or forcing oneself to be empathetic to a 3rd hand account of a story.


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## viva

android654 said:


> His accounting was funny. His dumbfounded nature was funny. His disbelief was funny.
> 
> If I saw the person in the story of course I'm not going to laugh in her face about what happened, but to hear him tell this story and not even smirk is either a lack of sense of humor or forcing oneself to be empathetic to a 3rd hand account of a story.


It was funny until he got to the part where he slugged the dude in the mouth so hard that he started bleeding. Kind of stopped laughing there. I dunno, I must not have a sense of humor. *shrug*


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## Jennywocky

Naama said:


> lol, i didnt compare them, i just said that both are possible deal breakers.. this deal breaker thing that both have in common with me is a subjective thing, they might be deal breakers to some, but not to all. therefore its not comparison between the two, because its nothing that is compared between them, its just that they might have something in common from a subjective point of view.


I guess I can accept that, as long as you can accept that I mean no insult when I say that I wouldn't like to be your friend as much as I wouldn't like to be friends with a rapist, a druggie, or a crazy person.

I think I did lay out my reasoning clearly in my last post. I don't have anything else to say about it.



> sure you are an INTP? INTP should understand this sort of stuff easily..


Really? You're resulting to personality-type insults now? That doesn't sound very INTP to me either.


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## android654

vivacissimamente said:


> It was funny until he got to the part where he slugged the dude in the mouth so hard that he started bleeding. Kind of stopped laughing there. I dunno, I must not have a sense of humor. *shrug*


You just admitted it was funny. And perhaps my sense of humor is more twisted than most, but I found it quite funny. Not because he hit a trans woman, but because the whole ordeal was funny.


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## Fizz

android654 said:


> You just admitted it was funny. And perhaps my sense of humor is more twisted than most, but I found it quite funny. Not because he hit a trans woman, but because the whole ordeal was funny.


She didn't think the violent part was funny, possibly the story. She may have believed you meant that it was funny that the trans-person was beaten. You didn't specify, "I LOL'd at all of it except the part where she gets beaten in the end."


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## Jennywocky

vivacissimamente said:


> Cool. A real-life example of violence against a transperson.
> LOL?


"...was crying like a real girl."
Yeah. Duh. Fancy that.

Ironic, isn't it? A behavioral display of tears offered by someone who is perceived as a woman will lead to a man feeling protective and consoling; by someone perceived as male, derision and even violence.

Also wondering why he told her he'd kill her if she ever told; but in this clip, he's doing the telling, and almost seems to be bragging or at least amused by it. I guess he feels he has enough distance now to not have it reflect poorly upon him.

There are definitely some differences in culture. I have some black friends who came up through the ghetto, and it's a very different life than my white rural background. There are a number of transwomen murdered in the USA each year, and typically they are black or latino and in that environment. I don't condone violence at all; but at the same time, the transperson in this anecdote was not looking out for herself. Doing what she did, in the way she did it, could easily get her beaten up or killed. Then again, I don't know what she even felt her options were.

.... 

I guess the only other thing I could say is that transwoman and transvestite can be very different. Tranwomen identify as women and often get some level of surgical/hormonal intervention and think/behave/feel along typical female lines. Transvestites might just like dressing in women's clothes but still identify as male and often think/behave like males. Confusion between the two can lead to some of the responses seen.

EDIT:


android654 said:


> You just admitted it was funny. And perhaps my sense of humor is more twisted than most, but I found it quite funny. Not because he hit a trans woman, but because the whole ordeal was funny.
> 
> ....His accounting was funny. His dumbfounded nature was funny. His disbelief was funny.


I found the whole story amusingly told, regardless of how I feel about the violence. 

(I find I can typically laugh at the irony in anything, even if parts of the story are offensive on other levels. I'm into dark humor.)


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## Fizz

@Jennywocky Transvestism is sometimes characterized as being aroused by wearing the clothing of the opposite sex. Usually the males are heterosexual, not homosexual. They are not wearing the clothes and/or makeup to attract other males. While Drag Queens are sometimes homosexual males who dress up in the opposite sex's clothing that is often more flamboyant than usual attire. As is their makeup and persona. The sexuality isn't key, but very rare are transvestites homosexual.

Drag King is a biological female that dresses in typically male clothing. Sometimes they, like Drag Queens, perform in front of audiences. Then there is a Faux Queen, which is a biological female that dresses like a Drag Queen (ie Connie and Carla - 2004)


As for famous examples: 
Eddie Izzard is a transvestite
RuPaul is a Drag Queen
Dame Edna Everage is a Drag Queen as well, but portrayed by a heterosexual male.


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## Naama

Fizz said:


> All I really have to say is, what the fucking fuck?
> 
> 
> What I want to say is, WOW. You're _not_ comparing trans-people to drug addicted mentally ill rapists even though you _just_ compared them to them? You put them on the same level as drug addicted mentally ill rapists. You clearly despise trans-people to that degree.
> 
> Who the hell in their right mind would forgive someone who was a rapist? That's one of the least forgivable things in my book. Drug addiction is horrible, but some people can make it past that. Everyone has their demons. Mental illness is part genetics and part environment, I can't blame people for what they can't control. I don't hate on people with cancer, it's not like they purposefully chose that.


lol, i didnt compare them, i just said that both are possible deal breakers.. this deal breaker thing that both have in common with me is a subjective thing, they might be deal breakers to some, but not to all. therefore its not comparison between the two, because its nothing that is compared between them, its just that they might have something in common from a subjective point of view.

anyways. but if he did the raping at the time when he was under influence of crack cocaine and had some mental issues at that time, but it wasnt him anymore. he wouldnt had been in the control of himself at that time, so how could you blame him for that? you just said that you couldnt blame someone for something they cant control so i guess you couldnt blame him for the rapes either, so there wouldnt be anything to forgive, since you couldnt blame him for what he cant control in the first place. but even tho you couldnt blame him for something he couldnt control, you might not be able to forget what he has done. just like i couldnt forget that the guy used to have a penis. if you cant vouch this blame vs forget thing, you just prove that you lied about not being able to blame someone for something they got no control over.

and more about this comparing thing you say i do. lets say i see someone on the street who has a dog, and the dog has same sort of wig as the dog in your avatar has. now if i would think "hmm that dog has the same wig as the dog in Fizzs avatar" do you think i would be comparing that dog owner i saw on the street and you? i dont think i would, because there would be one step away from the person i saw on the street, him -> his dog, and one step from you, you -> your avatar. same way this what you claim to be comparison between rapist drug addict and man who had a sex change operation has one step away and im comparing the steps. man without penis -> deal breaker for me, and rapist drug addict -> deal breaker for you. and im comparing these subjective impressions that are the deal breakers, just like im not comparing the guy i saw on the street to you, but im comparing his dog to your avatar.

its really frustrating when people fail to see the obvious..


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## skycloud86

Naama said:


> anyways. but if he did the raping at the time when he was under influence of crack cocaine and had some mental issues at that time, but it wasnt him anymore. he wouldnt had been in the control of himself at that time, so how could you blame him for that?


Yes, you can and should. Being under the influence of drugs does not absolve you. In fact - 

BBC News - Florence Habesch: George Johnson admits Rhyl murder

The man in that article was under the influence of both heroin and cocaine. If you took cocaine and started to drive a car, you would be charged with driving under the influence of cocaine. You took the drug, you are responsible for what you do under it's influence.



> you just said that you couldnt blame someone for something they cant control so i guess you couldnt blame him for the rapes either, so there wouldnt be anything to forgive, since you couldnt blame him for what he cant control in the first place. but even tho you couldnt blame him for something he couldnt control, you might not be able to forget what he has done. just like i couldnt forget that the guy used to have a penis. if you cant vouch this blame vs forget thing, you just prove that you lied about not being able to blame someone for something they got no control over.


Are you seriously continuing associating transsexual people with drug addicts? 

A drug addict can get help and be off the drugs. Yes, it is often a long and painful process, but it is something much easier than what a transsexual has to do in order to be who they are.



> and more about this comparing thing you say i do. lets say i see someone on the street who has a dog, and the dog has same sort of wig as the dog in your avatar has. now if i would think "hmm that dog has the same wig as the dog in Fizzs avatar" do you think i would be comparing that dog owner i saw on the street and you? i dont think i would, because there would be one step away from the person i saw on the street, him -> his dog, and one step from you, you -> your avatar. same way this what you claim to be comparison between rapist drug addict and man who had a sex change operation has one step away and im comparing the steps. man without penis -> deal breaker for me, and rapist drug addict -> deal breaker for you. and im comparing these subjective impressions that are the deal breakers, just like im not comparing the guy i saw on the street to you, but im comparing his dog to your avatar.


What exactly are you going on about here? There is a world of difference between a rapist drug addict and a transwoman. Let's go down to your level for a moment -the rapist drug addict is a bad person, and the transwoman is a good person, if we are to base their entire personalities on those facts alone. There is nothing negative for you as a potential partner of our hypothetical transwoman, because you got to be born with the right genitals and I assume your gender identity matches your biological sex from what you've said in your posts. There is a lot of negative things for Fizz as a potential partner of our hypothetical rapist drug addict. She could be in real danger from him or her. You, however, are in no danger if you went into a relationship with the hypothetical transwoman, unless she too is also a rapist drug addict/serial killer/abusive partner, and that would due to her personality, not the fact that she transitioned, or "used to have a penis".



> its really frustrating when people fail to see the obvious..


Talking to yourself, I assume?


----------



## MissJordan

antiant said:


> I just have to post this...





android654 said:


> Too funny for words.


An INFP found something funny.
And I sympathised for the guy...


----------



## Jennywocky

Naama said:


> ...its really frustrating when people fail to see the obvious.


Yeah. We know.


----------



## Naama

skycloud86 said:


> The man in that article was under the influence of both heroin and cocaine. If you took cocaine and started to drive a car, you would be charged with driving under the influence of cocaine. You took the drug, you are responsible for what you do under it's influence.
> 
> A drug addict can get help and be off the drugs. Yes, it is often a long and painful process, but it is something much easier than what a transsexual has to do in order to be who they are.


what does that article have to do with anything? what does it have to do with anything that you will get charged if you drive a car under influence of cocaine?

the reason i included mental problems, is that you are not legally responsible of your actions. you not getting this means that you dont actually understand well what i wrote. try to understand what im saying or there is no point of arguing about this..

you should learn more about addictions, many drug addicts cant get off the drug even if they want to and even if they get help. its an disorder, not a personal choice. american medical and psychiatric associations classify substance dependence is a mental disorder

DSM-IV Codes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



skycloud86 said:


> There is a world of difference between a rapist drug addict and a transwoman.


i know, i never said they were the same, im not comparing them, i just said that both are deal breakers for some people. cant be that hard to understand that, can it?


----------



## Jennywocky

Naama said:


> i know, i never said they were the same, im not comparing them, i just said that both are deal breakers for some people. cant be that hard to understand that, can it?


Did you read my earlier post(s), explaining why your comments are being perceived this way?

Apparently a number of people are still seeing this as a comparison, despite your disclaimer -- so maybe you would care to understand why rather than incessantly dismissing it as being stupid in some way. Repeating the same old comment over and over again as your reasoning doesn't seem to be working.


----------



## skycloud86

Naama said:


> what does that article have to do with anything? what does it have to do with anything that you will get charged if you drive a car under influence of cocaine?


You claimed that a rapist under the influence of cocaine would not be responsible for their actions, and that they cannot control themselves. I showed you evidence that regardless of what you may think, the law does not see it the same way as you do - the law will prosecute a rapist whether they were under the influence of cocaine or any other drug at the time of the offence or not.



> the reason i included mental problems, is that you are not legally responsible of your actions. you not getting this means that you dont actually understand well what i wrote. try to understand what im saying or there is no point of arguing about this..


Being under the influence is not the same as having a mental illness, and transsexuality is not a mental illness.



> you should learn more about addictions, many drug addicts cant get off the drug even if they want to and even if they get help. its an disorder, not a personal choice. american medical and psychiatric associations classify substance dependence is a mental disorder
> 
> DSM-IV Codes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I know that, but the law does not consider drug addiction as "legal insanity". If it did, all drivers caught DUI'ing would not be sent to jail, but secure mental hospitals.



> i know, i never said they were the same, im not comparing them, i just said that both are deal breakers for some people. cant be that hard to understand that, can it?


I can understand that, but why use a drug addict rapist as well as a transwoman? You are indirectly comparing them by assuming that a person who happens to be a transwoman is as much a "deal breaker" as a drug addicted rapist. It's like saying "I don't like rape, and I don't like black people". You're putting together a negative aspect of someone's personality (drug addiction, rapist) and a neutral part of someone's identity (skin colour or being trans).


----------



## Shahada

It's really weird how so many men's sex lives seem to entirely revolve around not being perceived as being "gay" or not doing "gay" things. If you don't want to date a transperson fine, but no one cares that you think they're actually a man despite being a woman in every way but an accident of birth. Gender (and even sex, to a certain degree) is not binary no matter how much you may wish it was.


----------



## android654

Shahada said:


> It's really weird how so many men's sex lives seem to entirely revolve around not being perceived as being "gay" or not doing "gay" things. If you don't want to date a transperson fine, but no one cares that you think they're actually a man despite being a woman in every way but an accident of birth. Gender (and even sex, to a certain degree) is not binary no matter how much you may wish it was.


 I'm going ot have to agree, a lot of guys sound defensive, almost as if they we're being questioned about being gay...


----------



## Rhee

skycloud86 said:


> You're putting together a negative aspect of someone's personality (drug addiction, rapist) and a neutral part of someone's identity (skin colour or being trans).


An excellent point. 





android654 said:


> His accounting was funny. His dumbfounded nature was funny. His disbelief was funny.
> 
> If I saw the person in the story of course I'm not going to laugh in her face about what happened, but to hear him tell this story and not even smirk is either a lack of sense of humor or forcing oneself to be empathetic to a 3rd hand account of a story.


I watched the whole thing with a sinking feeling. My heart aches for the girl who was beaten. 

Apparently you've taken the liberty to assume that I must be 'forcing myself to be empathetic', but seeing as I'm an ISTJ that couldn't possibly be the case, right? 

So it must be my lack of humour then, because I found nothing funny about the video clip. Violence against women pisses me off. I don't believe humour was what @antiant was gunning for, either.


----------



## android654

Rhee said:


> I watched the whole thing with a sinking feeling. My heart aches for the girl who was beaten.
> 
> Apparently you've taken the liberty to assume that I must be 'forcing myself to be empathetic', but seeing as I'm an ISTJ that couldn't possibly be the case, right?
> 
> So it must be my lack of humour then, because I found nothing funny about the video clip. Violence against women pisses me off. I don't believe humour was what @antiant was gunning for, either.


You are completely correct. I clearly meant that abuse towards women is hilarious. Of course the 2 second mention of him hitting her was the entire story, therefore the only thing worth finding humorous. That part was so powerful, that it being at the end ofthe video didn't stop it from being funny in the beginning of the video. Thank you for pointing out out my cold and sadistic nature, now if you'll excuse me, I need to have a good laugh so I thought I'd go the battered women's halfway house and laugh at their misfortunes.


----------



## Jennywocky

rhee said:


> So it must be my lack of humour then, because I found nothing funny about the video clip. Violence against women pisses me off. I don't believe humour was what @_antiant_ was gunning for, either.





android654 said:


> You are completely correct. I clearly meant that abuse towards women is hilarious. Of course the 2 second mention of him hitting her was the entire story, therefore the only thing worth finding humorous. That part was so powerful, that it being at the end ofthe video didn't stop it from being funny in the beginning of the video. Thank you for pointing out out my cold and sadistic nature, now if you'll excuse me, I need to have a good laugh so I thought I'd go the battered women's halfway house and laugh at their misfortunes.


....wellll...... that didn't go well...


----------



## Rhee

android654 said:


> You are completely correct. I clearly meant that abuse towards women is hilarious. Of course the 2 second mention of him hitting her was the entire story, therefore the only thing worth finding humorous. That part was so powerful, that it being at the end ofthe video didn't stop it from being funny in the beginning of the video. Thank you for pointing out out my cold and sadistic nature, now if you'll excuse me, I need to have a good laugh so I thought I'd go the battered women's halfway house and laugh at their misfortunes.


Calm down, dude.

The entire narrative was rather painful for me to watch, because early on I began to suspect how it would end while fervently hoping against it.

I know you don't endorse abuse towards women. I was angry at the man in the clip and his actions, not you. You didn't lay a hand on that girl. 

People will display different responses to the same material they're shown. You found parts of the monologue humorous, I didn't. 

Personally I wish you hadn't made the assumption that everyone whose reactions were different from yours either 'lacked their sense of humour, or were forcing themselves to be empathetic to a third person in the story.' What matters though is that we both agree that violence towards another human being is wrong.


----------



## Fizz

Naama said:


> lol, i didnt compare them, i just said that both are possible deal breakers.. this deal breaker thing that both have in common with me is a subjective thing, they might be deal breakers to some, but not to all. therefore its not comparison between the two, because its nothing that is compared between them, its just that they might have something in common from a subjective point of view.
> 
> anyways. but if he did the raping at the time when he was under influence of crack cocaine and had some mental issues at that time, but it wasnt him anymore. he wouldnt had been in the control of himself at that time, so how could you blame him for that? you just said that you couldnt blame someone for something they cant control so i guess you couldnt blame him for the rapes either, so there wouldnt be anything to forgive, since you couldnt blame him for what he cant control in the first place. but even tho you couldnt blame him for something he couldnt control, you might not be able to forget what he has done. just like i couldnt forget that the guy used to have a penis. if you cant vouch this blame vs forget thing, you just prove that you lied about not being able to blame someone for something they got no control over.
> 
> and more about this comparing thing you say i do. lets say i see someone on the street who has a dog, and the dog has same sort of wig as the dog in your avatar has. now if i would think "hmm that dog has the same wig as the dog in Fizzs avatar" do you think i would be comparing that dog owner i saw on the street and you? i dont think i would, because there would be one step away from the person i saw on the street, him -> his dog, and one step from you, you -> your avatar. same way this what you claim to be comparison between rapist drug addict and man who had a sex change operation has one step away and im comparing the steps. man without penis -> deal breaker for me, and rapist drug addict -> deal breaker for you. and im comparing these subjective impressions that are the deal breakers, just like im not comparing the guy i saw on the street to you, but im comparing his dog to your avatar.
> 
> its really frustrating when people fail to see the obvious..


You should never, ever try to compare things ever again. This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.


----------



## android654

Rhee said:


> Calm down, dude.
> 
> The entire narrative was rather painful for me to watch, because early on I began to suspect how it would end while fervently hoping against it.
> 
> I know you don't endorse abuse towards women. I was angry at the man in the clip and his actions, not you. You didn't lay a hand on that girl.
> 
> People will display different responses to the same material they're shown. You found parts of the monologue humorous, I didn't.
> 
> Personally I wish you hadn't made the assumption that everyone whose reactions were different from yours either 'lacked their sense of humour, or were forcing themselves to be empathetic to a third person in the story.' What matters though is that we both agree that violence towards another human being is wrong.


That's the magic of an ad populum statement, just because someone says something, it doesn't mean it automatically includes you. To think that everyone who makes an assumption emphatically believes it includes everyone is ridiculous.


----------



## Naama

Fizz said:


> You should never, ever try to compare things ever again. This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.


im not comparing them, you just have hard time understanding what i said, even after i explained it.. all i said was that both are deal breakers lol


----------



## Fizz

Naama said:


> im not comparing them, you just have hard time understanding what i said, even after i explained it.. all i said was that both are deal breakers lol


Nobody understands what you're saying. You aren't treading on any deeper level here. You just can't articulate what you're trying to say in a meaningful way. There's a difference between "clarifying" and "repeating nonsense".


----------



## LiquidCool

Fizz said:


> Nobody understands what you're saying. You aren't treading on any deeper level here. You just can't articulate what you're trying to say in a meaningful way. There's a difference between "clarifying" and "repeating nonsense".


Genus: Rectangle
Species: Square

Genus: Deal Breaker
Species: She was a man / She is MtF

Genus: Deal Breaker
Species: She was a drug addict

Genus: Deal Breaker
Species: He was a rapist

Is it clear now?


----------



## Fizz

DvlHk said:


> Genus: Rectangle
> Species: Square
> 
> Genus: Deal Breaker
> Species: She was a man / She is MtF
> 
> Genus: Deal Breaker
> Species: She was a drug addict
> 
> Genus: Deal Breaker
> Species: He was a rapist
> 
> Is it clear now?


You clearly didn't see his comparison of my avatar to a dog owner or dog. I asked another member they didn't even get it. I love when people get all condescending without context.


----------



## Naama

Fizz said:


> Nobody understands what you're saying. You aren't treading on any deeper level here. You just can't articulate what you're trying to say in a meaningful way. There's a difference between "clarifying" and "repeating nonsense".


if what i meant the first time is too hard to get for some people(as it is really obvious, at least if you dont go in some "i wont even try to understand" tert mode or F on it), it should be obvious after i said that im just using both as an example of a deal breaker. there simply is no comparison between them in any objective level, as deal breaker is not an objective term, its as subjective as a term can be. it should also be obvious that even tho they both are potential deal breakers, it doesent mean that im comparing the two things.

ill give you an example, lets say i like chocolate and i also like walking in the woods. do you think that this is comparing chocolate to walk in the woods? now if someone says that he doesent like chocolate, do you think its right for him to start yelling at me "HOW THE HELL CAN YOU COMPARE SOMETHING SO FUCKING DISGUSTING AS CHOCOLATE TO NICE WALK IN THE WOODS?!?!?". seriously wtf is wrong with you?

sorry but i cant say obvious things in more obvious way, if you got hard time understanding some obvious things, its you loss.


----------



## Jennywocky

are you both done yet? It's obvious no one is going to agree, regardless of what "seems obvious" to anyone. 

Let's move on.


----------



## LiquidCool

Fizz said:


> You clearly didn't see his comparison of my avatar to a dog owner or dog. I asked another member they didn't even get it. I love when people get all condescending without context.


This is the context as I see it:
* His opinion was attacked for no obvious reason, when all he did was answer the original question.
* When he tried to explain his opinion, he did so poorly.
* In turn, he was attacked based on his opinion and based on his attempt at explaining it.

My comment wasn't written in anger or condescension, and it wasn't targeted specifically at you. All I did was try to articulate his point for him.


----------



## Stephen

Feral sheep said:


> *hetero men, would you date a trans woman who is beautiful?*
> 
> they already went through transition and they look nothing like a man, they look hot as a female.
> would you ever date and be more with one? say they are celebrity beautiful btw there are some out there


Beautiful and hot are arbitrary. Let's instead say she's attractive to me.

"Celebrity beautiful?" Don't get me started on everything that's wrong with that pairing of words.

Yes. If I were single, and met a person who was physically female but was born biologically otherwise who I was attracted to, yes, I believe I would be willing to "date and be more with" her.


----------



## Stephen

Kayness said:


> ^^ Uhmm (To Naama)...it's not really that simple, you know... :/
> 
> ...but what do I know


You seem to know exactly what I know: that it's not really that simple.



Fizz said:


> I would assume that most males would also think about how their friends, family, and coworkers would react. It could cause them to be ostracized from friends, family, and generally the society if it gets out.


I was thinking about this earlier, actually. If I was dating a woman who was born male, I don't expect I would discuss it with my friends and family. My partner's sexual stuff is not anyone's business but hers and, to a lesser extent mine, unless she decides she wants someone else to know for some reason.



Feral sheep said:


> if the person kept her cock however and the hetero demanded his prostate massaged on a daily basis with all 9` with said member then he might be gay. gay guys want the WHOLE package, they also want masculinity and its hard to see masculine with boobs flopping around.


In what manner have you become some grand authority on what all gay guys want? I'll add that your coarse wording makes your opinions difficult to understand.



Naama said:


> imo gender is more than just penis/no penis


Yes. Gender and sex are distinctly different.



Naama said:


> he is born physically male = male in my books. its pretty typical for gay men to be feminine, but that doesent make them females. if someone feel like they are born as wrong sex, it sucks for them, but that doesent make them the sex they would like to be.


Now, you're also making assumptions about what's typical of gay men. You're generalizing. It's also not a fair comparison.

Then what does make someone the sex they would like to be? As previous posters have said, humans can be born with any combination of what many consider sexual traits. Generally, parents will not accept that their child is a hermaphrodite and will choose "female," because as was previously said, "it's easier to poke a hole than build a pole." Later those children turn out to be male, and now they don't have a penis. Again, this is all a retread of previous posters... but it bears repeating.



Naama said:


> maybe, english inst my native language. but still i prefer the gender and sex the same.


OK. Well, these are two different terms. Simplified, sex is biology, and gender is psychology.



Naama said:


> anyways, its stupid to continue this as it is a matter of opinion, i got mine, you got yours, i already noticed that they differ and there is nothing you can do to change my opinion about this and im pretty sure that there is nothing i can do to change your opinion about this, since you look at different factors than i do


I don't think anybody's looking to change your opinion, or to have you change theirs. What I'm trying to do now is understand exactly where your opposition is, and whether you've really thought it through, as these matters are (as @Kayness pointed out) very complicated.



skycloud86 said:


> No, they are women. Just because you cannot accept that they were women in all but body, and had to go through years of painful and expensive surgery, had to risk being injured or killed for being transsexual, may have lost friends and family who couldn't accept them and who before transitioning feel physical as well as mental pain from being born as the other sex, doesn't make them any less of a woman (or man in the case of FtM men).


*slow motion high five* because sometimes clicking "Thank" is not enough.



Naama said:


> ofc transsexualism exists, i never claimed it didnt. but dressing like the opposite sex, feeling like the opposite sex, eating hormones of the opposite sex and having surgeries to make you look like the opposite sex, doesent make you the opposite sex.


No. Sex is what is being changed in sex change surgery. Ideally, it is being changed to match the gender of the patient. This may simply be a misunderstanding of language.



Naama said:


> its pointless to argue about matters of opinion


No, it's not. We're all broadening our minds, and our understanding of the issue and each other. I've already learned a great deal.



Fizz said:


> Western women in trousers? LET 'EM BURN!!! They're a bunch of witches pretending to be men!!!


I kind of like it when my partner wears my clothes. :blushed: The burning seems to happen on my end. :laughing:



sofort99 said:


> I always suspected the whole "women in pants" thing was just a plot against women. Women are not built for pants, and maybe 1 in 10 actually looks decent wearing them.
> 
> It's part of the fashion industry's master plan to make women look as unattractive as possible.


Eh. I hate the fashion industry at least as much as you do, but their main goal is to make women insecure, not unattractive.



Naama said:


> like i already told, its a matter of opinion, its stupid to argue about opinions. you saying that my opinion is poorly thought out is your opinion, me not wanting to date males is good enough reason for my opinion, in my opinion..


I think you're taking this very personally. Many others in this thread have the same general opinion as you. Your rationale has been challenging for me to understand. I'm trying to get the details on that, not in an attempt to insult or discredit you, but to understand you out of _respect_ for your opinion.



zynthaxx said:


> So unless you really don't care about the sex thing being a mutual experience (in which case you might as well do it by yourself), or you love the person unconditionally (to a similar point as somebody who would marry a disabled person, knowing from the start that the dirty deed wouldn't be equally enjoyable to both parts), there actually _is_ a downside for a guy to be with an MtF person, or am I wrong here?


I think this is an interesting point. I'm assuming the surgery was done perfectly and the woman passes.



Naama said:


> sure you are an INTP? INTP should understand this sort of stuff easily..


:eyeroll: I know a lot of very bright INTPs. They all seem to understand well thought out and presented arguments very well. Bring one, and let's see what happens.



Naama said:


> you should learn more about addictions, many drug addicts cant get off the drug even if they want to and even if they get help. its an disorder, not a personal choice. american medical and psychiatric associations classify substance dependence is a mental disorder


I disagree with you. It is a personal choice. For example, I am genetically predisposed to alcoholism, so I don't drink. When the individual gets on the drug, they've made the mistake. Regardless of what we classify addiction as, drug use and abuse is something that is in our power to start and stop.


----------



## echidna1000

Silly men, don't you know you might have already had this experience without having the faintest idea that you were having sex with a transwoman?

The only sure way to tell is if they need artificial lubricant or not (Muggles). For Polyjuiced wizards, it's impossible to tell unless you keep them overnight and wake up to find a guy with a beard next to you.


----------



## Fizz

HarryJPotter said:


> Silly men, don't you know you might have already had this experience without having the faintest idea that you were having sex with a transwoman?
> 
> The only sure way to tell is if they need artificial lubricant or not (Muggles). For Polyjuiced wizards, it's impossible to tell unless you keep them overnight and wake up to find a guy with a beard next to you.


I'm a biological female and I still use artificial lubricant. One of the side effects of birth control has something to do with lubricant production I do believe.


----------



## Shemp

I would date one. I would feel uncomfortable with the idea for a while but I think I'd get over it.


----------



## WickedQueen

If every time a guy answered the OP's question with "no" answer, and then he had to deal with a bunch of "human rights defender" who "challenged" him for his subjective reasons, then it's no wonder that there's only few male members who had answered the question.

Those guys are just answering the OP's question. The question simply ask them to answer "yes" or "no". They can add that with their subjective reasons, but I don't think it's fair to challenging their reasons just because they choose to say "no", and then force them into a debate, when they had never intended to do so since the first time.

If all they wanted was to answer a question, then I think we should respect whatever their answer is and leave them alone (I think this is also a part of being _open-minded_). 

Challenging (or attacking) every guy's opinion just because they choose to say "no", will only discouraging other guys from giving their honest opinions or contributing to the main topic.


----------



## Fizz

WickedQueen said:


> If every time a guy answered the OP's question with "no" answer, and then he had to deal with a bunch of "human rights defender" who "challenged" him for his subjective reasons, then it's no wonder that there's only few male members who had answered the question.
> 
> Those guys are just answering the OP's question. The question simply ask them to answer "yes" or "no". They can add that with their subjective reasons, but I don't think it's fair to challenging their reasons just because they choose to say "no", and then force them into a debate, when they had never intended to do so since the first time.
> 
> If all they wanted was to answer a question, then I think we should respect whatever their answer is and leave them alone (I think this is also a part of being _open-minded_).
> 
> Challenging (or attacking) every guy's opinion just because they choose to say "no", will only discouraging other guys from giving their honest opinions or contributing to the main topic.


Some of them were going on about how they don't even consider them a woman and that they're just a man with his "dick cut off". Which is just overkill and unnecessary to the OPs question. That is why I made another thread that was open to everyone on the topic so they could answer anonymously in the poll without have to identify themselves and/or receive flack from fellow members. Which seems to happen when they antagonize people on purpose.

http://personalitycafe.com/sex-relationships/55041-would-you-date-trans-person.html

People are still welcome to answer my OP, but I just enjoy polls so much that I included one.


----------



## Jennywocky

Fizz said:


> Some of them were going on about how they don't even consider them a woman and that they're just a man with his "dick cut off". Which is just overkill and unnecessary to the OPs question.


Yeah, I agree with the gist of WickedQueen's comments; but I also agree with this. The street goes both ways.

I think there were guys here who said they probably wouldn't date a transwoman who got no negative response (and even positive Thanks) because they just answered the question without feeling the need to invalidate or slander people's identities in the process, even while being very honest about what they were and were not attracted to.

That was the distinction, if one bothers to actually look at what the arguments revolved around.


----------



## Fizz

Jennywocky said:


> Yeah, I agree with the gist of WickedQueen's comments; but I also agree with this. The street goes both ways.
> 
> I think there were guys here who said they probably wouldn't date a transwoman who got no negative response (and even positive Thanks) because they just answered the question without feeling the need to invalidate or slander people's identities in the process, even while being very honest about what they were and were not attracted to.
> 
> That was the distinction, if one bothers to actually look at what the arguments revolved around.


Agreed. I have no problem with anyone who says, "No". It's quite understandable in most societies today. It can cause a whole heap of trouble for everyone involved because of social stigma and the possibility of being ostracized. There's no reason to start insulting people and comparing them to things that aren't on par with each other. People are allowed to decide whom they will date, it doesn't bother me that some males won't date transsexual females. I really don't care.


----------



## WamphyriThrall

Reality Check said:


> Live and let live. If there are guys who are happy being with a MtF, then cool I'm happy they are happy.
> 
> To me I would say it as the biggest deceit there is. If they were up front about it to begin with, then that's cool. Have a little chit chat go our ways. But no matter what surgery they had, they would still be a male with surgery to me.
> 
> Fake tits I can live with. Plastic surgery I can live with.
> 
> But this nah sorry, as soon as those words "I used to be a man" or words to those effect were muttered, I would lose all attraction and feelings as to me personally, its all an illusion and all those feeling would be gone, just like that.
> 
> I'm not purposefully trying to override their beliefs and views of themselves, but this is my belief and view and to me, I'm going to put that first when it comes to matters like this in a relationship.
> 
> Also I'm sure there are dating groups and communities for people with different views to me.


They're not "male" nor were they ever "men". 

Regarding "deceit", how are they deceiving anyone? They're living as their true selves. Maybe people should stop assuming every man and woman is one thing or another.

I don't think they're obligated to come out to dates, but because of views like this, it would be a good idea to scope out the playing field. Some men get it in their head that it's totally okay to harm someone over things like this.


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## Caveman Dreams

WamphyriThrall said:


> They're not "male" nor were they ever "men".
> 
> Regarding "deceit", how are they deceiving anyone? They're living as their true selves. Maybe people should stop assuming every man and woman is one thing or another.
> 
> *I don't think they're obligated to come out to dates*, but because of views like this, it would be a good idea to scope out the playing field. Some men get it in their head that it's totally okay to harm someone over things like this.


Ditto, and I'm not obligated to date people either. Or should I have no say in who I date?


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## ninjahitsawall

marblecloud95 said:


> Are you saying you cant handle pussy or what.









marblecloud95 said:


> Nah not completely female hair looks fake and I bet shes got some man hands on her, I've frequented alotof clubs I can tell when they're packing heat. Let me go on the record and say there's nothing wrong with that, if you're bored of your out of shape wife constantly attempting to peg you with a plastic pecker and want a hard bodied hotty with fake tits and a nice don juan brazillian/thialand schlong in between your buns that's your call.


lol! That's uh...not my thing at all.. 
I don't know that fake hair is part of the process (I think they can grow their hair naturally). Her hair does look dyed though. probably isn't naturally pure black like that.


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## marblecloud95

ninjahitsawall said:


> lol! That's uh...not my thing at all..
> I don't know that fake hair is part of the process (I think they can grow their hair naturally). Her hair does look dyed though. probably isn't naturally pure black like that.


could also be hiding a receding hairline/baldness, you never know
Anyway if that's not you're thing why would you be interested? The whole point for a guy to hook up with a trans woman is to do the stuff he's too afraid to do with another guy. Now some might say that's a shalllow view but remember I myself am incapable of forming emotional relationships and have to compensate for my lack of personality with my extremely girthy, albeit short sex organ. Don't ask me to understand emotional intimacy because that's just a cover for sex, and I'd rather repress any feeling I can to continue my glutenous lifestyle.


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## Asmodaeus

ninjahitsawall said:


> I've thought a lot about this because logically there's no reason not to if the physical attraction is there. Since some trans women aren't "cisgender level" passable, I wouldn't date them because I'm just not physically attracted to them.
> 
> 
> 
> That's pretty much the conclusion I came to. I feel like I'd be biased by knowing beforehand though. So I'd prefer to find out later after I've already become attracted to them.
> 
> Blaire White (trans woman on YouTube) gets a lot of comments from straight guys saying they'd date her/fuck her/etc. Even though she openly has said she didn't get any genital surgery, and they are aware of that and just don't care. Personally I don't think I could go as far as dating someone with male genitals even if they otherwise looked completely female. I might date someone like Blaire if she had that surgery done. (idk if she's my type though. But she doesn't look or sound like a guy at all is my point).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (I do like women with her snarky sense of humor though)


OMG! She’s utterly hilarious! LOL :laughing:


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## ninjahitsawall

marblecloud95 said:


> could also be hiding a receding hairline/baldness, you never know
> Anyway if that's not you're thing why would you be interested? The whole point for a guy to hook up with a trans woman is to do the stuff he's too afraid to do with another guy. Now some might say that's a shalllow view but remember I myself am incapable of forming emotional relationships and have to compensate for my lack of personality with my extremely girthy, albeit short sex organ. Don't ask me to understand emotional intimacy because that's just a cover for sex, and I'd rather repress any feeling I can to continue my glutenous lifestyle.


Eh, I'm on the fence. I'm not actively interested, just aware of the possibility I could think someone's smoking hot and then find out they used to have a dick (like I said it wouldn't work if they still had one). And since this is theoretical, I don't know if finding that out would affect my attraction. 



Icy Heart said:


> OMG! She’s utterly hilarious! LOL :laughing:


Yeah, she is. That's not even her finest work.. I just posted it as a quick example. I actually found out about her from another thread here.


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## Clare_Bare

Have you ever wondered how many Transgender women are members in PerC?
They're often contributing to the forum topics and yes, you're regulary interacting with them guys ... :rolleye:


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## BloonStuff

Sometimes I forget how much I've surrounded myself with lgbtqia+ people or allies so a lot of what I see trans positive, then I come across threads like this and I'm reminded how rife transphobia is. I mean, I know it is in an abstract sense but actually witnessing it is different.


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## mhysa

Clare_Bare said:


> Have you ever wondered how many Transgender women are members in PerC?
> They're often contributing to the forum topics and yes, you're regulary interacting with them guys ... :rolleye:


lol seriously. it doesn't surprise me one bit because they live in a sheltered fantasy world where trans people are just mythical figures that people discuss on the internet, and think that they've never met one irl or interacted with one period. it's like they have such a hard time fathoming them as people who exist, live lives, and have a presence in society that it just doesn't occur to them that trans individuals will in fact see their shitty posts.

or they just don't care about any of it because of that detachment that i described.

on the other hand, objectifying/fetishizing trans people isn't helpful either, so this thread was bound to be shitty.


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## Eska

BloonStuff said:


> Sometimes I forget how much I've surrounded myself with lgbtqia+ people or allies so a lot of what I see trans positive, then I come across threads like this and I'm reminded how rife transphobia is. I mean, I know it is in an abstract sense but actually witnessing it is different.


How do you define "_transphobia_"?

Would you consider one to be "_transphobic_", if they consider a male who has become a "_transgender woman_", to still be a male?


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## BloonStuff

Eska said:


> How do you define "_transphobia_"?
> 
> Would you consider one to be "_transphobic_", if they consider a male who has become a "_transgender woman_", to still be a male?


I don't feel like I'm best equipped to define transphobia. While I recognise it more often than not, I find definitions can be limiting. In short though, it's any kind of hate, discrimination or prejudice against a person due to their trans status. This can present in small seemingly innocuous ways that won't even occur to cis people, to the more obviously harmful extremes like hate crimes etc. 

As such, this also includes erasing - or ignoring - someone's self identified gender. So if you consider a trans female to 'still be male', that is indeed transphobic. Even the way you've worded that question is questionable, to be honest.


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## AndromedaCorporation

Trans women is one of those things which makes me think about whether or not WW 2 outcome was a good one...In short no.Never.Nope.Not a chance.


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## Simpson17866

If you fell in love with somebody, got engaged, but found out that s/he had been born with a cleft palate (which they'd since had removed), would you call off the engagement because you just found out you're not attracted to what they *could've* looked like if they'd kept the physical traits ("determined by *genetics!!!!!!!*") they were born with?


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## leictreon

Sure, why not? If we connect then I'm down.


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## ninjahitsawall

Clare_Bare said:


> Have you ever wondered how many Transgender women are members in PerC?
> They're often contributing to the forum topics and yes, you're regulary interacting with them guys ... :rolleye:


This thread isn't about interacting with trans women. The question is about dating. It's possible to interact with someone and not want to date them...


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## Hypaspist

Nope. Got into an argument with one, will never forget getting yelled at so no thank you. It was one of the most hilarious moments of my life too. Said "jahwol" instead of a simple "ja".


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## Caveman Dreams

ninjahitsawall said:


> This thread isn't about interacting with trans women. The question is about dating. It's possible to interact with someone and not want to date them...


Maybe we are also supposed to lie on this thread as well.


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## BloonStuff

Hypaspist said:


> Nope. Got into an argument with one, will never forget getting yelled at so no thank you. It was one of the most hilarious moments of my life too. Said "jahwol" instead of a simple "ja".


You got into an argument with ONE person and were yelled at by ONE person so you've sworn off all people that share ONE characteristic with what person, the fact they were trans? ...Sounds logical.


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## Hypaspist

BloonStuff said:


> You got into an argument with ONE person and were yelled at by ONE person so you've sworn off all people that share ONE characteristic with what person, the fact they were trans? ...Sounds logical.


I just have no interest in trans people. Not biologically programmed to meet my needs.


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## Caveman Dreams

BloonStuff said:


> You got into an argument with ONE person and were yelled at by ONE person so you've sworn off all people that share ONE characteristic with what person, the fact they were trans? ...Sounds logical.


Are you like a tran person match maker. 

Do you not think its better to know ahead who is go/no-go.

Would you honestly want to date someone who didn't want to date you?

So what are your boundries when it comes to dating. Please do tell, then we can attack you for your lifestyle.


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