# Is gender and sex the same thing?



## Innocentia (Jun 30, 2019)

It's a poll about language, and what is the most common understanding in the usage of those terms.

I'm obviously concerned by this question as I'm trans, and I'm a proponent of a dissociation between gender and sex. But because I know that in english those words tend to be interchangeable, which it isn't the case in my language where female is almost never use to describe a woman, it's even seen as pejorative and bestial, I include myself in the term of female, and even in descriptions of women when we don't speak of the specific internal anatomy of females.

And when we ask what's my sex, I write or say female. I'm so not politicaly correct ^^, so post-modern you know, like peak queer, words don't have meanings anymore. I would still stop at saying, unironically, I'm a biological female, cause I clearly know that I'm not anything remotely born biologically female. Or that the context really indicate that it wouldn't be smart to say I'm a female or to pass as a female cause their usage clearly indicate we speak about internal anatomy which only people born female have.

But anyway, it's a poll about: Do people actually use the term female or male as inclusive of trans*, or as a mean to distinguish it from the term men or women which could include trans*?

I'm pretty aware that the context is important in this, so it's more about your general feeling of how you use the word female or male, not in the context of this poll, but in the everyday life. Of course, if you have, also in your native language, that kind of distinction and interchangeability of the corresponding terms, you can also use this poll to convey your feelings about their usage from your experience with your native language.

The poll is made as such that you can't affirm a clear transphobic stance, and I'm not sorry about it.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

*I don't know anymore*

I'm disappointed there wasn't a third option. I don't know anymore. I tend to think perhaps a person can be physically one sex and yet mentally be the other. We have been socialized to assume certain roles for males and females, and while some of those roles cannot be so easily swapped, the majority of them are. It may very well be that at some point, we learn to see fluidity in many aspects of gender and sex as perfectly normal. It will take many years for this level of acceptance to come into being, but we've made plenty of other groundbreaking paradigm shifts in our collective societies. Time will tell, probably not in my lifetime, maybe not in anyone alive today, but I think, given enough time, a lot of the definitions we consider solid will someday be looked at as oddly restrictive.


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## Innocentia (Jun 30, 2019)

tanstaafl28 said:


> I'm disappointed there wasn't a third option. I don't know anymore. I tend to think perhaps a person can be physically one sex and yet mentally be the other. We have been socialized to assume certain roles for males and females, and while some of those roles cannot be so easily swapped, the majority of them are. It may very well be that at some point, we learn to see fluidity in many aspects of gender and sex as perfectly normal. It will take many years for this level of acceptance to come into being, but we've made plenty of other groundbreaking paradigm shifts in our collective societies. Time will tell, probably not in my lifetime, maybe not in anyone alive today, but I think, given enough time, a lot of the definitions we consider solid will someday be looked at as oddly restrictive.


If I understand you correctly, is that you want to speak in terms of sex, physically and mentally, so we could be male physically and female mentally or vice and versa? And gender could be used for the social component of sex?

So genuine question from my part, why wouldn't you take gender for the mental part? I know that gender is also used with very different meanings, it's just that to distinguish between anatomy and psychology while still using the terms which are linked to sex force us to add more words so we understand eachother. While in a context where you have to separate both, you could as well settle on using the terms affiliated with sex to speak of anatomy, and gender to speak of psychology.

And beside, it's about how you use the terms in your everyday life, not the context where you have, for a reason or another, to be careful about what the words convey. It's really about how much the disctinction between sex and gender, which could be criticised, is present in the usage of the english language.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Innocentia said:


> If I understand you correctly, is that you want to speak in terms of sex, physically and mentally, so we could be male physically and female mentally or vice and versa? And gender could be used for the social component of sex?


As you instinctively know, I'm struggling for the words to express what I think and feel on the subject. It is confusing. While I am biologically male and very much think and feel as a male, I am utterly fascinated by females from the perspective that I have no context to understand what it is like to actually *be* a female. Being that I crave knowledge, I recognize there is something missing that I cannot ever hope to have. It is a sort of itch that I will never be able to satisfactorily scratch. Given that I feel that about an experience I would love to have while continuing to have, but cannot, who am I to deny others who feel their biological gender does not match their internal feelings about their gender, if that makes any sense? 



> So genuine question from my part, why wouldn't you take gender for the mental part? I know that gender is also used with very different meanings, it's just that to distinguish between anatomy and psychology while still using the terms which are linked to sex force us to add more words so we understand eachother. While in a context where you have to separate both, you could as well settle on using the terms affiliated with sex to speak of anatomy, and gender to speak of psychology.


My confusion is the semantics are just as muddy concerning issues of "brain vs mind". I'm considering "sex" to be the physical and "gender" to be the mental. Of course "gender" also seems to be related to the assumed roles of each sex as well. I think we're going to have to come up with new words for what we're trying to discuss. Of course, we still have people who are going to fight this tooth and nail because they fear change of any sort. I am not afraid of change. I know who I am and I am not about to start judging others for seeking to understand themselves. We don't start to differentiate ourselves according to sex in the womb until the second trimester. The evidence is clear. Why do males have nipples? The scrotum is simply another form of labia that has grown together. The penis becomes a clitoris in a woman. The testicles start out inside the body where the ovaries are and drop into the scrotum later on. So the idea that we may retain some vestige of having been sexless, or one sex or the other, is entirely conceivable (pardon the pun). 



> And beside, it's about how you use the terms in your everyday life, not the context where you have, for a reason or another, to be careful about what the words convey. It's really about how much the distinction between sex and gender, which could be criticized, is present in the usage of the English language.


Agreed in full. I don't have an answer. I don't think creating a whole slew of new symbols to demonstrate gender fluidity is an acceptable answer. As before semantics always lag ideas, but all languages do contain the ability to adapt to new concepts, or we wouldn't have gotten this far. One of the reasons humanity survived in a world where multiple predators have sharp claws, teeth, and fur, is because we adapted our brains in order to communicate, make tools, weapons, clothing, and shelter. We made up for what we lacked in a viscous fight to survive and we thrived. We compensated for our weaknesses and overcame the dangers all around us. We'll get there. The path to progress is never linear, however.


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## Jaune (Jul 11, 2013)

Overall, I relate "sex" to physical biology, and "gender" to what's mental. Like tanstaafl, I don't know anymore. I did vote "Disctinction between the use of man and male, and of woman and female, in the everyday life."

Honestly, the idea of gender pisses me off. I go out of my way to avoid using the words male and female in my everyday speech, avoid using it to describe other people. Even if people consider their relationship to gender as a big part of their identity, I ignore it, simply because it pisses me off. My idea of gender is selfishly avoiding it, just because I hate it so much.

Before I sound like a total asshole, I do try to use whatever pronouns people prefer. It's really easy to remember, so sometimes it's weird to me that it takes some people so much effort to do. (I do refuse to use any of pronouns for people besides he/him, she/her, and they/them, though.)
What I mean is, when forming opinions of people, I try to look at everything else (yes, including physical appearance and what kind of chromosomes they appear to have), but not their relationship to gender.

Personally, if on a form, I'm asked about my gender, I write "prefer not to say" or "other." I do write "female" if asked about my sex, just because I unfortunately have a vagina and two X chrosomes.

Overall, language is really subjective, and the topic of gender is one of the most subjective of all, with no clear definition in my language. But my answer to your question, to the best of my understanding, is no. Gender and sex is not the same thing.

My English sucks anyway, so I'm probably misunderstanding a lot of this.


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## Innocentia (Jun 30, 2019)

tanstaafl28 said:


> As you instinctively know, I'm struggling for the words to express what I think and feel on the subject. It is confusing. While I am biologically male and very much think and feel as a male, I am utterly fascinated by females from the perspective that I have no context to understand what it is like to actually *be* a female. Being that I crave knowledge, I recognize there is something missing that I cannot ever hope to have. It is a sort of itch that I will never be able to satisfactorily scratch. Given that I feel that about an experience I would love to have while continuing to have, but cannot, who am I to deny others who feel their biological gender does not match their internal feelings about their gender, if that makes any sense?


It does make sense, but no, I do not instinctively know where you're sturggling with words, I don't know where you're at on that matter.

There's a lot to say about knowing what it is to be female, it's a whole essay that is required to get just to a surface level. To know something is, for me, that we have to get a grasp on the causality, so what cause a female to be a female. And more than just what tend to trigger the whole process of transforming a baby into a fully-grown female after something like 18-20 years, there's also the constant relationships between the brain and their anatomy, physiology, physionomy and all biological process. All that experiences that females have to learn to have a grasp on all that will always be something that a male will never get it, or, will always be lagging far behind, and vice-versa. Still being a female is more complex, more of a struggle because of the position occupied in the reproduction.

So yeah, me, as well as you, will never really know what it is to be female, even if in the end, I'll know more, but it won't be that close, a lot will be out of my reach of experience. But we can listen and still learn through the narrative female have about their body, wether artistic or just the raw biology, we definitely cannot judge. It was actually funny to find out with a cis woman what oestrogens where doing to the bodies, I had the abstract knowledge of their effects, and she had the first-hand experience. We, in the end, both learned something about the biology of being female. That was great, and a little odd at the time ^^.



> My confusion is the semantics are just as muddy concerning issues of "brain vs mind". I'm considering "sex" to be the physical and "gender" to be the mental. Of course "gender" also seems to be related to the assumed roles of each sex as well. I think we're going to have to come up with new words for what we're trying to discuss. Of course, we still have people who are going to fight this tooth and nail because they fear change of any sort. I am not afraid of change. I know who I am and I am not about to start judging others for seeking to understand themselves. We don't start to differentiate ourselves according to sex in the womb until the second trimester. The evidence is clear. Why do males have nipples? The scrotum is simply another form of labia that has grown together. The penis becomes a clitoris in a woman. The testicles start out inside the body where the ovaries are and drop into the scrotum later on. So the idea that we may retain some vestige of having been sexless, or one sex or the other, is entirely conceivable (pardon the pun).


I like very much that you bring up that thing, about the continuity between both fully grown sexual bodies and all the steps they went through. I'm having kind of an odd theory about it. I distinguish the body, from the consciousness of the body it has from itself (the odd part), from the consciousness of the individual, the mind with concepts and language and all. Basically, my theory is that the level between both the body and the mind, is what is impossible to change. The reason why I think that, it's that trans people can change their mind every minute on who they are, it hurts, it doesn't help, it's often in times of doubt, but at the end, the emotions that something is wrong is still there, or that actually by trying a whole new projection on themselves they find happiness, but if the projection can't be realised, bad emotions come forth. And they can change their body all they want, and it can actually transform the body as such that it fits the emotions, part of them.

This consciounsness that the body has of itself, speak through emotions to the brain, and then once it's in the brain, the emotions are read through all the social determinations which formed the consciousness, our own consciousness as a subject. So yeah, depending of the culture you're in, the trans experience can be very different. So we never have the raw emotions which could be understood as universal through all cultures, and many anthropologists as well as sociologists proved that emotions weren't universal at all. And because emotions is of prime importance in the construction of a transidentity, wether negative or positive, and depending on how society allow you to interpret those emotions, transness can have many diverse manifestations.

My end point is this, in my theory, your body actually know what is a female body and all their anatomy as well as a male body, and can easily combine both to form a kind of knowledge of something inbetween. What I'm getting at is if we deal with crippling emotions when certain part of our bodies manifest themselves to our mind, and when we have dealt properly with those parts, our senses about those parts will cause euphoria. It means that this kind of second consciousness that the body has of itself, know when the body doesn't conform its expectations, thus throw crippling emotions to our mind, and when it conforms, it throws pleasant emotions to our mind. Thus this second consciousness have a map of all possibilities of how our body could be and the map that it considered was correct, and nearer your actual body fit the map deemed correct, more the minds, both of them, will be at peace with it's own body.

My body consciounsess consider that me, being in the position of the male reproduction, is a fucking joke. When I listen to my emotions about being a male and what should be done biologicaly and behaviorally to allow reproduction, I just begin to disfunction. I'm astonished, I can't speak properly, anxiety increase, I become all nervous, and then I just want to end everything right now. In other words, gender dysphoria. But I have nothing anywhere on me or my mind which tells me that I'm a woman or a female, I've never had that will to wear feminine clothes in the past, and I began to wear some recently, and I wasn't feeling what I expected. At that moment I understood that my problem were the genitals, what I was struggling with all those years, is that I wanted to believe, and make other people believe, I had no male genitals. Obviously, I miserably failed.

It's nothing alike the first point about knowing what it is to be a female, it's not about the anatomy itself, and it isn't about the brain and its plasticity. It's about something which haven't any form of plasticity, is communicating through emotions and will force your mind to think of itself otherwise to the point that you may want to change your body with other gender as a model. Of course, if passing as another gender alleviate enough the crippling emotions, without having to change your body, all the better. Where is this something? Why does it exists? I haven't a clue, but it could be related that actually our bodies, male, female, intersex and now transsex, have some sort of continuation on a spectrum of all the manifestations of sexual bodies, "natural" and "artificial".

But it's just a theory...


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## Blazkovitz (Mar 16, 2014)

Sex is a biological reality. Someday we might overcome it, maybe be becoming cyborgs or starting living primarily in virtual realities. But today it is very important. It defines our bodies, and the hormones have impact on our minds as well. 

Gender is just a leftist construct.


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## Innocentia (Jun 30, 2019)

Blazkovitz said:


> Sex is a biological reality. Someday we might overcome it, maybe be becoming cyborgs or starting living primarily in virtual realities. But today it is very important. It defines our bodies, and the hormones have impact on our minds as well.
> 
> Gender is just a leftist construct.


Hahaha, it's not the left which constructed gender as it is understood now, it's something which date. The current western understanding of gender is sometimes dated back to the birth of christianity in the roman empire, as romans and greeks had a different one. Sometimes we see the victorian era as the birth of the current conception of gender, but it is currently being questionned, and for good reasons. But it's a continuity.

Also, interesting thing about biology is the birth of dimorphism between male and female in the human species, 20'000 years old skeletons of humans show a very small dimorphism in the bone structure and how tall people were between both sex, close to nothing. And since then the dimorphism increased, the reasons are unclear and we have hypothesis, but we don't really know when, or if, we'll have answers to that.


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## Soul Kitchen (May 15, 2016)

It seems like the question posed in the thread title, and the question posed in the OP and poll, are two different things. My response to the thread title is no, because gender and sex are different things. In the OP, you ask whether or not I use the terms female and male and woman and man interchangeably in my daily life, regardless of whether I believe gender and sex are distinct terms. I do often use those terms interchangeably, but mostly because they generally overlap when it comes to which individuals they describe.


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## Innocentia (Jun 30, 2019)

Soul Kitchen said:


> It seems like the question posed in the thread title, and the question posed in the OP and poll, are two different things. My response to the thread title is no, because gender and sex are different things. In the OP, you ask whether or not I use the terms female and male and woman and man interchangeably in my daily life, regardless of whether I believe gender and sex are distinct terms. I do often use those terms interchangeably, but mostly because they generally overlap when it comes to which individuals they describe.


I admit it, the title can be confusing, but it would have been too long of a title otherwise, or maybe not. Cause clearly, there's a correlation in the practice of the language between asking: What's your sex? And male/female, and asking: What's your gender? And man/woman. So in place of "Is male/female and woman/man the same thing?" I've written down the current title, and yeah, maybe not the smartest move...

Anyway, for some reason that I still ignore, in english, people may use male or female to describe human populations in the everyday life, while this isn't the case in my native language at all. And I would clearly reject to be called by the corresponding term of female in my own language. While in english, and maybe because I'm a bit fluent with it, I just can't feel being excluded of the group of female, while I'm not female on a biological level. That's mind-boggling for me, and because of the visibility of trans people, I was wondering if people did actually choose to be more careful about it, and, surprisingly, that doesn't seem so. Wether people are willing to exclude trans people or not. I just don't know what to do about it.

People may invert male and man, while actually thinking that trans men aren't really men, and another just in front of them, may also invert while including trans in their mind, and unless you force people to state their mind explicitly, which you actually don't really want to. And an observer who is trans may feel included by both in their speech... I'm like: "What?" That's crazy! Isn't it? It's like language is failing us.


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## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

Innocentia said:


> I admit it, the title can be confusing, but it would have been too long of a title otherwise, or maybe not. Cause clearly, there's a correlation in the practice of the language between asking: What's your sex? And male/female, and asking: What's your gender? And man/woman. So in place of "Is male/female and woman/man the same thing?" I've written down the current title, and yeah, maybe not the smartest move... is trans may feel included by both in their speech... I'm like: "What?" That's crazy! Isn't it? It's like language is failing us.


I generally just see male/female as an adjective form of sex/gender and man/woman as its noun form.

If not led in the direction, I'd never use man/woman in either framework. A lot has to do with the age thing where man/woman is more exclusively used for adults.

If you ask me I would say the emphasis of gender in today's language is the more interesting topic. For instance, it's hard to talk about people in a casual sense without using tons of his/her, he/she, and his/hims. Why is our language set up so that it constantly re-iterates what "gender" someone is multiple times in a sentence?


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## Vesh (Mar 28, 2020)

Innocentia said:


> I admit it, the title can be confusing, but it would have been too long of a title otherwise, or maybe not. Cause clearly, there's a correlation in the practice of the language between asking: What's your sex? And male/female, and asking: What's your gender? And man/woman. So in place of "Is male/female and woman/man the same thing?" I've written down the current title, and yeah, maybe not the smartest move...
> 
> Anyway, for some reason that I still ignore, in english, people may use male or female to describe human populations in the everyday life, while this isn't the case in my native language at all. And I would clearly reject to be called by the corresponding term of female in my own language. While in english, and maybe because I'm a bit fluent with it, I just can't feel being excluded of the group of female, while I'm not female on a biological level. That's mind-boggling for me, and because of the visibility of trans people, I was wondering if people did actually choose to be more careful about it, and, surprisingly, that doesn't seem so. Wether people are willing to exclude trans people or not. I just don't know what to do about it.
> 
> People may invert male and man, while actually thinking that trans men aren't really men, and another just in front of them, may also invert while including trans in their mind, and unless you force people to state their mind explicitly, which you actually don't really want to. And an observer who is trans may feel included by both in their speech... I'm like: "What?" That's crazy! Isn't it? It's like language is failing us.


I feel like you're assuming English people are far more careful and thoughtful about their language usage than they actually are. When in truth when most people speak they tend to be careless and negligent with the words they choose to use, because it's still relatively easy to get the main thrust of your thoughts across even when you're being careless. And it strains people's brains less.

I use male/female pretty interchangeably with man/woman. I call FTM trans people male. I assume they know they likely were not born with XY chromosomes, or a penis. I don't need to reiterate it for them. To me that kind of pedantry seems an asshole move, which would likely be covering some form of transphobia. Like, "oh you can pretend you're a man, but you'll never actually be truly male". I would never do that to my friends. They're men. They're also male. I guess they're not scientifically, biologically male, but what does that even mean? I don't care about their ovaries, I'm never gonna see them, and their chromosomes mean less than nothing to me too, except insofar as those things (and society) cause them pain.


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## Innocentia (Jun 30, 2019)

Vesh said:


> I feel like you're assuming English people are far more careful and thoughtful about their language usage than they actually are. When in truth when most people speak they tend to be careless and negligent with the words they choose to use, because it's still relatively easy to get the main thrust of your thoughts across even when you're being careless. And it strains people's brains less.


Well, yes ^^, I kinda assume that a lot, because that's what I do in my everyday life as an amateur political anthropologist. Being as careful as I can with my words with the political consequences they can have always in mind, and while also looking for any ambiguities in everyone speech ^^. (Less with my speech sadly...) A passion going a bit too far ^^.



> I use male/female pretty interchangeably with man/woman. I call FTM trans people male. I assume they know they likely were not born with XY chromosomes, or a penis. I don't need to reiterate it for them. To me that kind of pedantry seems an asshole move, which would likely be covering some form of transphobia. Like, "oh you can pretend you're a man, but you'll never actually be truly male". I would never do that to my friends. They're men. They're also male. I guess they're not scientifically, biologically male, but what does that even mean? I don't care about their ovaries, I'm never gonna see them, and their chromosomes mean less than nothing to me too, except insofar as those things (and society) cause them pain.


And thanks for those words, any trans person would be glad to hear those, it brings joy to my heart, really ^^. :heart:


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## Surreal Breakfast (Oct 24, 2008)

Gender = internal sex.
Sex = external sex.
I would say the internal overrides the physical.


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## cosmoetic (Mar 24, 2020)

Sex: The biological designation determined by what sex organs you have.

Gender: The social construct that determines what behaviors and roles a person of your sex have within society.


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## Suntide (Dec 22, 2018)

Gender and sex are different. Everyone knows what biological sex is, everyone defines gender differently, and far, far too many people care about those of us who define ourselves differently than they do, or in a way that doesn't quite fit in nicely with their definition of gender. Why they think I care about their opinion in the first place, or why they care so much about how other people completely unrelated to them live their lives and find their own happiness, is beyond me. *shrug*

My gender, as I define it, doesn't match my biological sex. I don't give people a hard time over it. I don't get mad at people for accidentally misgendering me. If they do it intentionally, I just ignore/block them and move on. None of my friends, family, or coworkers have ever had an issue with it, or if they do, they keep it to themselves because my body is none of their business anyway. Actually, I never even came out at work or asked people to use my pronouns, people just started gendering me correctly on their own, because we're all pleasant people who aren't assholes.

My 3rd anniversary of starting HRT is two weeks from today. Even if someone refuses to acknowledge my gender identity, there's no arguing that my body has made changes now that make me biologically ambiguous because of the hormones. Facial hair--even if I stopped taking hormones, it would still grow. Once hair starts growing somewhere, it doesn't stop growing there. Bottom growth--also permanent. The cessation of my menstrual cycles. Fat redistribution to a more masculine shape. My regular blood tests indicate that my testosterone levels are well within the range of a biological man's.

In the end, I don't give a shit if some insecure, pathetic little stranger has a problem with how I define myself and how I live my life. I'm not hurting anyone, and I'm doing what makes me happy. My depression and anxiety have lifted significantly in the past 3 years. They don't have to respect me, and I don't want fake, forced respect anyway, but if they have a problem with me, they can just fuck off and leave me alone, and then we'll both be better off for it.

Since it's been a few years since I began my transition, gender isn't actually something I spend much time thinking about anymore, because I was able to make the changes I needed to make to feel comfortable in my own body. I've always had a gender non-conforming personality, and my personality hasn't changed pre- or post-transition. I'm the exact same person, just happier and more comfortable in my own skin. I don't have the time to waste on anyone in my life who thinks that's a problem. You have a problem with how I identify because you think it's bullshit? Cool that's nice, idgaf, bye. I've got better things to do than listen to your insecure driveling.

I know the premise of this thread is more about the semantics of man vs male and woman vs female, but it always comes back to the idea of sex vs gender, and I already typed this all out, so. Lol.


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

I honestly have no fucken clue anymore 

What I mean is I have my kids who grow up being edumacated with ‘proper’ pronouns and labels, telling me how politically incorrect and offensive I am in some of my mis labels 

Well fuck sorry I went to school in the 90s we never had anyone teaching us proper pronouns and labels to not offend everyone.

I most certainly do believe people should be do what they want and let live and let be. 
But I told my kids I sorta draw the fucken line on expecting me to keep up with political correctness terminologies that change every few years

My view how bout be and do whatever the fuck ya want but don’t shove terminologies and nit pick 

Gender, sex etc etc 
In eye of beholder


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## Pretender (Apr 27, 2016)

Funny how it went from "gender is a social construct" to "you must respect a person's chosen gender" - from one absurdity to another. First it "it doesn't exist" and now "you must respect whatever exists in my head." Legislating or enforcing feelings is absurd. If you got a sex change and changed your birth certificate, then sure, you are now legally another gender. Until then, it's just your feelings and they are no more valid than mine.


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## Innocentia (Jun 30, 2019)

So first thing for both of you, it's off-topic, it's about semantics of the use of the terms female/male and man/woman, and if you interchange them when you speak in your everyday life.

You're not the first to do that, but the others weren't irrespectful, we even got a testimony which is courageous from his part, cause we expose ourselves to exactly that kind of irrespectuous stances.

I find that kinda blundering to come in a thread, to not read what the poll is about (or to read but choosing anyway to go off-topic) and then expressing an off-topic stance about how "PC" you're not.



Sensational said:


> I honestly have no fucken clue anymore
> 
> What I mean is I have my kids who grow up being edumacated with ‘proper’ pronouns and labels, telling me how politically incorrect and offensive I am in some of my mis labels
> 
> ...


No comment...



Pretender said:


> Funny how it went from "gender is a social construct" to "you must respect a person's chosen gender" - from one absurdity to another. First it "it doesn't exist" and now "you must respect whatever exists in my head." Legislating or enforcing feelings is absurd. If you got a sex change and changed your birth certificate, then sure, you are now legally another gender. Until then, it's just your feelings and they are no more valid than mine.


Because social construction exists, none is denying that, it's not because it's a social construction that we don't constantly use gender as a social marker, it's actually because it's a social construction that it is constantly used as a social marker.

And it's not about enforcing feelings, autists have feelings and particular ways of dealings with expressions and language and perceptions. Does that mean that you have to expect them to act and think and express themselves like you do? No, because they either can't or will require a lot more energy to do that and will be exhausted far more quickly. And like autism, there's also a determinism behind the condition of trans people, we don't choose to be trans, thus to deal with our condition. It's, first, to accept ourselves as being a gender we weren't assigned at birth. Then, what's asked is to respect how we function and what kind of care we require, and we don't require that much, like: not trying to make inquiries on our bodies and intimate parts wether verbaly or physicaly (which is just a follow-up of sexist inquiries of female bodies), correct yourself when you misgender someone, particularly when suddenly they look bleak or astonished or exasperated or dissociated.




Misgendering and being irrespectuous towards trans* hurts, telling you to respect us doesn't hurt. Mind you that if you do not agree with that, you're basically throwing your insecurities on trans people. If you do that, there's no surprise that you may be butthurt everytime the subject is brought up... (and that doesn't mean that trans* are never insecure or butthurt, they've as much as you do the right to be so, but you can't make trans* not trans*, while you can become respectuous of the condition of other people. Or do you also laugh at people in wheelchair because they can't walk? And because I have to be particularly careful with that subject, it's not the degree of disability which I'm comparing, it's the determinism of the condition, we didn't choose.)


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## Pretender (Apr 27, 2016)

Innocentia said:


> Misgendering and being irrespectuous towards trans* hurts, telling you to respect us doesn't hurt.


If you're demanding that people who do not conform to your wishes get punished, that's not only dishing out hurt, that's demanding someone else dish out hurt on your behalf. If you're a biological man with a 5 o'clock asking me to refer to you as "ma'am" I might do it if I am willing to indulge you, but if I decide not to and you get me fired for it, well then screw you. 



> Or do you also laugh at people in wheelchair because they can't walk?


I don't laugh at people in wheelchairs and I don't laugh at trans people. I imagine it's pretty fucked up being convinced you're trapped in a different body. All I said was, legislating the contents of what's going on in your head is bullshit. Laws are supposed to be objective and the contents of your head are subjective.


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