# The INFP male and manliness. Experimental credo.



## Hero of Freedom (Nov 23, 2014)

fresh said:


> I have yet to meet an INFP male IRL, but there are a few videos on YouTube about how INFPs have a stereotype of being weak, when they're actually strong and can be just as masculine as any other type. DJArendee had a video on that, so did MBTV. These were done by an ESTP (I think) and ENTJ.
> 
> I understand your frustration. I think this has more to do with gender stereotypes at large, and thus MBTI stereotypes act on them too. Thankfully, there's a large crack in gender stereotypes, at least in the West. I'm hoping that this continues, and that people think critically about false standards applied to both men and women. I also hope more men defend themselves simply by being who they are, and accepting their emotions if they do not. It's so sad to see men in my life completely ignore this side of themselves...it seems to make situations more painful in the end for everyone involved, only provoking more misunderstanding. I think many would argue that "real men" have a sensitive side and empathy. So, while any type can be capable of this, male INFPs have a natural one-up in that department.
> 
> ...


Gender expectations differ from time periods, 500 or 1000 years ago it was considered a "masculine" quality moreso to be a "feeler" person. ISFJs today would have been associated with knights were expected to be, but not anymore now. If you think INFP is at the peak of 'stereotypically feminine' well you haven't really been contrasted to ISFJs much who are "neater, has less boundaries and more nuturing" than all of us in general. ENFP, ISFP and ISFJ males have it harder in terms of the challenge to not be stigimitised by those. INFPs could even potentially ignore risks if really absorbed enough in a certain passion?

An INFP male can conceal his emotions(To the point of seeming ice-cold/distant sometimes) from people easier than those guys when not comfortable expressing them infront of people due to being introverted. Infact most express them quite alot in private when feeling safe to do so. Same with INFJs, though they can do it better.

What happens when society tries to crush a IxFx male's sensitive side is they will not actually conform(Even if it seems like that) but instead really turn to the qualities on the inside that society associates(stereotypes) with the "darker qualities of feminity" if they knew how it worked. Are you familiar with Kylo Ren-ish characters or close in fiction? In which half the time they are focused on trying to 'emotionally manipulate' others into seeing them as what they qualify to be "masculine".


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## fresh (Jul 3, 2011)

Chara said:


> Gender expectations differ from time periods, 500 or 1000 years ago it was considered a "masculine" quality moreso to be a "feeler" person. ISFJs today would have been associated with knights were expected to be, but not anymore now. If you think INFP is at the peak of 'stereotypically feminine' well you haven't really been contrasted to ISFJs much who are "neater, has less boundaries and more nuturing" than all of us in general. ENFP, ISFP and ISFJ males have it harder in terms of the challenge to not be stigimitised by those. INFPs could even potentially ignore risks if really absorbed enough in a certain passion?
> 
> An INFP male can conceal his emotions(To the point of seeming ice-cold/distant sometimes) from people easier than those guys when not comfortable expressing them infront of people due to being introverted. Infact most express them quite alot in private when feeling safe to do so. Same with INFJs, though they can do it better.
> 
> What happens when society tries to crush a IxFx male's sensitive side is they will not actually conform(Even if it seems like that) but instead really turn to the qualities on the inside that society associates(stereotypes) with the "darker qualities of feminity" if they knew how it worked. Are you familiar with Kylo Ren-ish characters or close in fiction? In which half the time they are focused on trying to 'emotionally manipulate' others into seeing them as what they qualify to be "masculine".


I am unsure of what part of my post specifically you are responding to..? I personally don't believe that INFPs peak in having a "stereotypically feminine personality", that is why I put it in quotes. This is something I read on many MBTI websites, and I think it also become a stereotype in MBTI, much as all Feeling types become characterized as "more feminine". That is an interesting tidbit about the ISFJ knight, but I don't see how this applies to what I wrote? 

I don't see the point in comparison, touting males of one type as more feminine than another. Perhaps male ISFJs can be seen as less feminine for that nurturing quality, but isn't this type of action just perpetuating more stereotypes and more unwanted modern gender roles? Nurturing is not exclusively completed by females, even if it is seen as feminine. Many fathers are just as, sometimes more-so, nurturing than mothers. I think the point of @*TheNomad*'s "Manliness Credo" is that any trait can be seen as masculine, with more masculinized intentions too. An argument can be made for both, and that it doesn't simply lean one way, which is the bias we have as a society.

Do you identify with Kylo-Ren? And yes, I do see this all the time, which is also what I mentioned in my original post on this thread. Many of the men in my life feel like they have to make up for their "perceived" lack of masculinity, often repressing their emotions. Most men I've come to know repress their emotions, of any type. However, this isn't exclusive to men, and I think we generally have an overall negative view of emotions. We could be more accepting of them, as a whole. 

I'm not sure what you mean by the "darker qualities of femininity"? How would that manifest?


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## Hero of Freedom (Nov 23, 2014)

fresh said:


> I am unsure of what part of my post specifically you are responding to..? I personally don't believe that INFPs peak in having a "stereotypically feminine personality", that is why I put it in quotes. This is something I read on many MBTI websites, and I think it also become a stereotype in MBTI, much as all Feeling types become characterized as "more feminine". That is an interesting tidbit about the ISFJ knight, but I don't see how this applies to what I wrote?
> 
> I don't see the point in comparison, touting males of one type as more feminine than another. Perhaps male ISFJs can be seen as less feminine for that nurturing quality, but isn't this type of action just perpetuating more stereotypes and more unwanted modern gender roles? Nurturing is not exclusively completed by females, even if it is seen as feminine. Many fathers are just as, sometimes more-so, nurturing than mothers. I think the point of @*TheNomad*'s "Manliness Credo" is that any trait can be seen as masculine, with more masculinized intentions too. An argument can be made for both, and that it doesn't simply lean one way, which is the bias we have as a society.
> 
> ...


My point was to give off examples that they can change all the time to agree with what you said, but add a bit more you know? Also just to add I think ISFJs and the ENFPs have it harder than us probably so to say maybe it's not so bad for us afterall versus society's perception.

And no I don't identify with so although I myself was raised without any "male" figures in my life. I think I'm "balanced" or atleast a 70-30% ratio. My 'worst' experience was I couldn't get along with "masculine" or wannabe minded boys in school and they left me out of whatever they did. But that was about it mostly I think.

Well a bit complicated to explain but I mean think of how introverted feelers act when they are bitter, in conflict or how the not so nice ones among us do so. But yeah probably delved too deep into the stereotypes themselves when writing that.


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## fresh (Jul 3, 2011)

Chara said:


> My point was to give off examples that they can change all the time to agree with what you said, but add a bit more you know? Also just to add I think ISFJs and the ENFPs have it harder than us probably so to say maybe it's not so bad for us afterall versus society's perception.
> 
> And no I don't identify with so although I myself was raised without any "male" figures in my life. I think I'm "balanced" or atleast a 70-30% ratio. My 'worst' experience was I couldn't get along with "masculine" or wannabe minded boys in school and they left me out of whatever they did.
> 
> Well a bit complicated to explain but I mean think of how introverted feelers act when they are bitter, in conflict or how the not so nice ones among us do so. But yeah probably delved too deep into the stereotypes themselves when writing that.


Ohhhh okay, cool! At first I thought you found fault in my post but now I see you were just adding on to it. Thank you for that


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## Fjong86 (Feb 9, 2017)

Tbh, don't care too much about society's opinion of what is manly or not. As a second gen immigrant I grew up in the middle of two different cultures. 

Came to the conclusion that one should just be oneself. Not what society or what your culture tells you to be. Be proud that you are an introverted feeler and know yourself. Your capability to put yourself in other people shoes.


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## FrootyMadness (Feb 10, 2017)

I, myself, wasn't raised to fit any speciffic gender roles. I'm a guy who grew up and spent most of his life with a mother figure, without a father. I was always encouraged to listen to my heart and do as my inner flame demands. I am not masculine or feminine, I am who I am.


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## Football43 (Nov 8, 2016)

Would you say that creating something for others is 'manly?" Creating opportunities for others? I mean this goes without saying for adults. Children consume while adults produce but as an INFP, whose prone to wanting to be creative, wouldn't that mean their 'more manly?


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## Ald52OnMyTonguePleas (Mar 3, 2017)

fresh said:


> I don't see the point in comparison, touting males of one type as more feminine than another. Perhaps male ISFJs can be seen as less feminine for that nurturing quality, but isn't this type of action just perpetuating more stereotypes and more unwanted modern gender roles? Nurturing is not exclusively completed by females, even if it is seen as feminine. Many fathers are just as, sometimes more-so, nurturing than mothers. I think the point of @*TheNomad*'s "Manliness Credo" is that any trait can be seen as masculine, with more masculinized intentions too. An argument can be made for both, and that it doesn't simply lean one way, which is the bias we have as a society.
> 
> Do you identify with Kylo-Ren? And yes, I do see this all the time, which is also what I mentioned in my original post on this thread. Many of the men in my life feel like they have to make up for their "perceived" lack of masculinity, often repressing their emotions. Most men I've come to know repress their emotions, of any type. However, this isn't exclusive to men, and I think we generally have an overall negative view of emotions. We could be more accepting of them, as a whole.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by the "darker qualities of femininity"? How would that manifest?



Hello again, Fresh.

All these supposed qualities are arbitrary and divisive. Everyone has them and some are good, others are shit. For instance the only "western masculine" qualities I identify with are loyalty and chivalry ... and these aren't exclusive to people that identify as masculine. I read somewhere of some intellectual egg head trying to defend gender roles as necessary and natural and had a laugh. So were do the hijra in India come from? Is this some anomaly put here by an alien overlord for shits and giggles? And transgender individuals? Where does all these prescribed social norms leave them?

To me the main thing that separates humans from other animals is our ability to define ourselves in anyway we see fit. And yet many are perfectly comfortable to hand that awesome freedom over to some bearded thunder god or an antiquated social system ... Shit just reading those last two sentences maybe a large swath of "humans' ain't Human at all.

Should blonde people act in a predefined way? Red heads? My in seam is 32" so I have to behave in this way? Apply these roles in this way and the joke reveals itself. 

Idealist through and through here. And the changes will never occur in a time frame that would suit me. But I have a strong hope that a large spiritual awakening like the 60's will happen again. It has to. 

"If we had any nerve at all, if we had any real balls as a society, or whatever you need, whatever quality you need, real character, we would make an effort to really address the wrongs in this society, righteously."--Jerry Garcia


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## fresh (Jul 3, 2011)

Hello @Ald52OnMyTonguePleas :kitteh:

YUP. Agreed. Many cultures have their own version of hijiras as well, not just India, which refutes that guys argument even more. In Polynesian culture (specifically Tahiti, where much of my family is from) we call them mahu. Men accept them, women accept them. Unlike hijeras, they don't play a specific role in society except being themselves 



Ald52OnMyTonguePleas said:


> *And the changes will never occur in a time frame that would suit me. But I have a strong hope that a large spiritual awakening like the 60's will happen again.* It has to.


Interesting, you don't see this happening now? I think it's totally the start of one.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

@Chara You said that you think that ENFPs have it tougher? What do you think makes the difference between INFP and ENFP males to increase the pressure of masculinity?


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## Hero of Freedom (Nov 23, 2014)

Falling Foxes said:


> @Chara You said that you think that ENFPs have it tougher? What do you think makes the difference between INFP and ENFP males to increase the pressure of masculinity?


I think it could be a possibility due to ENFPs being more emotionally expressive and have a 'sensitive' side more easier for others to see. Whereas INFPs tend to be more reserved including about things like that unless we can't contain it anymore?

So most of the time people might get lumped together with your typical ISTX and INTx types or the average joe that keeps to himself in labeling sometimes at first glance in public. Introversion of emotions is also seen as a quality associated with IxTx individualistic tendencies.

At worst most of the time my INFx-ness tendencies got me called things like "retarded" or made fun of for being "clueless" sometimes from my experience.

Overall I think our ISFJ counterparts have it the worst. We NF types in general tend to have boundaries but that of which are invisible, and would be more than glad to force others out of our spaces if they messed with us but they put up none sometimes being taken advantage of by everybody.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Chara said:


> I think it could be a possibility due to ENFPs being more emotionally expressive and have a 'sensitive' side more easier for others to see. Whereas INFPs tend to be more reserved including about things like that unless we can't contain it anymore?
> 
> So most of the time people might get lumped together with your typical ISTX and INTx types or the average joe that keeps to himself in labeling sometimes at first glance in public.
> 
> ...


Aha, yeah I agree with you there. ENFPs express things a little more loudly I guess. I don't hide my 'feels'.

And I am thinking the extraverted feeling probably makes the pressure of masculinity more of an issue, so that conflicts for ISFJs. I think despite not coming across as your typical guy Fi means I'm less likely to care about it, but I think that's the case for you INFPs too.

I think it's also telling that Fe is more likely to be uncomfortable with the idea of accepting it as the OP worked out he's actually an INFJ when his feelings about this issue seem to contrast with the other posters in here.


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## Ald52OnMyTonguePleas (Mar 3, 2017)

fresh said:


> Hello @Ald52OnMyTonguePleas :kitteh:
> 
> YUP. Agreed. Many cultures have their own version of hijiras as well, not just India, which refutes that guys argument even more. In Polynesian culture (specifically Tahiti, where much of my family is from) we call them mahu. Men accept them, women accept them. Unlike hijeras, they don't play a specific role in society except being themselves
> 
> ...


Thanks for proffering some knowledge on cultures. I only assumed that third genders exist in other cultures, but wasn't certain. Again thanks for sharing as this has started to become a topic of interest for me as of late.

And yeah I do see an awakening of sorts happening, but I don't see the lessons/revelations being applied like they where in the 60's. Seems to be an intellectual wellspring rather than a spiritual one--at least for the time being. I do have hope as I said. I don't buy into this but there is the Sekhmet Hypothesis. Then again maybe I am just an aging, jaded asshole. Or maybe we need a catalyst like LSD in the 60's and MDMA in the late 80's-early 90's. Hopefully the dark age of heroin use will subside because that is pretty much all that the streets provide in the way of chemicals in my area for the past seven years. And this isn't to say that a drug is necessary, I just feel there needs to be a push or maybe a strong shove to take it out of the classroom and into the streets, so to speak.

Just had a thought that it may not be as visible due to the powers-that-be being that much more sophisticated ... actually I'll go with that. But still a song unheard, a painting unseen?


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## fresh (Jul 3, 2011)

Ald52OnMyTonguePleas said:


> Thanks for proffering some knowledge on cultures. I only assumed that third genders exist in other cultures, but wasn't certain. Again thanks for sharing as this has started to become a topic of interest for me as of late.
> 
> And yeah I do see an awakening of sorts happening, but I don't see the lessons/revelations being applied like they where in the 60's. Seems to be an intellectual wellspring rather than a spiritual one--at least for the time being. I do have hope as I said. I don't buy into this but there is the Sekhmet Hypothesis. Then again maybe I am just an aging, jaded asshole. Or maybe we need a catalyst like LSD in the 60's and MDMA in the late 80's-early 90's. Hopefully the dark age of heroin use will subside because that is pretty much all that the streets provide in the way of chemicals in my area for the past seven years. And this isn't to say that a drug is necessary, I just feel there needs to be a push or maybe a strong shove to take it out of the classroom and into the streets, so to speak.
> 
> Just had a thought that it may not be as visible due to the powers-that-be being that much more sophisticated ... actually I'll go with that. But still a song unheard, a painting unseen?


Interesting, I've never heard of the Sekhmet Hypothesis before. I wonder if that works for the world at large or for each culture specifically. Like in Japan, they seem to often have revivals of different archetypes and rebellious groupings of people that counter the status quo. 

I guess that's true that this current phase isn't spiritual, although I'd be interested to know the ways in which the 60s was...I do think that this phase is more analytical, whereas then it was purely demand and called for.

Btw, I started a thread in the INFP forum that talks about some of this stuff...mostly gender roles and feminism, if you'd like to share some of your thoughts there! It's not exactly the same as this one, but I'm really curious what INFPs have to say about this stuff specifically.


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## Ald52OnMyTonguePleas (Mar 3, 2017)

fresh said:


> Interesting, I've never heard of the Sekhmet Hypothesis before. I wonder if that works for the world at large or for each culture specifically. Like in Japan, they seem to often have revivals of different archetypes and rebellious groupings of people that counter the status quo.
> 
> I guess that's true that this current phase isn't spiritual, although I'd be interested to know the ways in which the 60s was...I do think that this phase is more analytical, whereas then it was purely demand and called for.
> 
> Btw, I started a thread in the INFP forum that talks about some of this stuff...mostly gender roles and feminism, if you'd like to share some of your thoughts there! It's not exactly the same as this one, but I'm really curious what INFPs have to say about this stuff specifically.


I will definitely find my way to your thread Fresh. 

The sixties seems spiritual to me because a section of people question the entirety of what they had been brought up to believe. You don't see students, at least in the States, staging walkouts from classes and protesting the very institutions that claim to be for freedom of thought and information. They aren't shit canning the Protestant work ethic to seek whatever. I don't see a mass disaffection now that was taking place then. Sure a lot of people are railing to expand freedoms and cultural hegemony, but it is in cyber space. I don't see it at the street level like what happened in my parents heyday. Just an example that made me laugh was the protests that took place after Trump was officially elected. Glad people still do march but to me that was like protesting who won prom Queen. Yeah Trump is a blowhard, narcissist who is not fit to govern but the real work lies ahead. And what is going on now? Just complaints. Sure there was Wall Street takeover, but once the cops started busting heads, away they run never to return to the stage. Again I only speak about what I see on the streets as I am about as computer savvy as a chimp. Also I wasn't even a thought in my parents eyes then, so I only have second hand accounts such as my folks tales of being on campus at Kent State on May 4, 1970 and the calamity that transpired.

I could very well be completely off with these observations. I COULD BE WRONG. I offer no facts and truth is an abstraction.

Don't know if that makes any sense.


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## fresh (Jul 3, 2011)

Ald52OnMyTonguePleas said:


> I will definitely find my way to your thread Fresh.
> 
> The sixties seems spiritual to me because a section of people question the entirety of what they had been brought up to believe. You don't see students, at least in the States, staging walkouts from classes and protesting the very institutions that claim to be for freedom of thought and information. They aren't shit canning the Protestant work ethic to seek whatever. I don't see a mass disaffection now that was taking place then. Sure a lot of people are railing to expand freedoms and cultural hegemony, but it is in cyber space. I don't see it at the street level like what happened in my parents heyday. Just an example that made me laugh was the protests that took place after Trump was officially elected. Glad people still do march but to me that was like protesting who won prom Queen. Yeah Trump is a blowhard, narcissist who is not fit to govern but the real work lies ahead. And what is going on now? Just complaints. Sure there was Wall Street takeover, but once the cops started busting heads, away they run never to return to the stage. Again I only speak about what I see on the streets as I am about as computer savvy as a chimp. Also I wasn't even a thought in my parents eyes then, so I only have second hand accounts such as my folks tales of being on campus at Kent State on May 4, 1970 and the calamity that transpired.
> 
> ...


Haha no I think it's a really good point and it makes sense. Especially about our current cultural conversations only really taking place online, not in person, and definitely not with the passion that went into it during the 60s. Though, to be fair, they didn't have cyberspace back then. I wonder how differently it would have gone down then... I actually see a lot of this stuff being something that is going to massively change with incoming generations. I'm in my mid-twenties, but I can already see kids these days growing up to be more accepting of anyone different then them and I pray that this is something they bring with them in adulthood. One can only hope. In that though, the change is subtle and gradual, not like a high-stakes battle.

I do think there have been a few recent moments that are comparable to what happened in the 60s, such as all the protests and rallies at the airports when the muslim ban was enacted. And the women's march was inspiring, since it occurred worldwide and hundreds of thousands (millions? idk the exact figures) of people partook in it. But it's true, especially with a leader like Trump, it seems like some are okay with him, some deplore him, while many are just neutrally watching the whole ordeal pan out. There isn't as strong of a feeling of unity...although I have no idea if that was the case back then either, although I like to imagine there was.


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