# Are Fe dominants more manipulative?



## Mimi_2 (Apr 29, 2013)

I've known 2 ESFJs who used their Fe to manipulate others. They both would say things in a very emotional manner, like they were extremely hurt or like their feelings were extremely strong, but actually they weren't really that deeply affected, but they knew that others would react to it, by feeling bad, intimidated or becoming nicer, thus doing what the ESFJ wanted in the first place. I've also seen in INFJs and ISFJs how they would try to manipulate with Fe for example: "this thing you did makes me feel absolutely _devastated _and I can't cope with it, it was so aweful!!" To get you to appear like the bad guy unless you do what they want. 
So are strong Fe users more manipulative?
And 2.) I have a hypothesis that healthy Fe is when the user is emotionally healthy and gives others many tips on emotional health, compliments, or just simply creates comfortable emotional environments. Unhealthy Fe on the other hand, is when the user has bad emotional health and thus just screams things out unobjectively and seems biased: "This is terrible, you're all not doing any of what you're supposed to do, I'm the only one doing what I should here!!" rather than "I need help with something". 
Maybe you have something to add to my hypothesis?


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

No, it's just easier to spot when they're being manipulative. All types manipulate all types, there are just different ways of doing it.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Mimi_2 said:


> I've known 2 ESFJs who used their Fe to manipulate others. They both would say things in a very emotional manner, like they were extremely hurt or like their feelings were extremely strong, but actually they weren't really that deeply affected, but they knew that others would react to it, by feeling bad, intimidated or becoming nicer, thus doing what the ESFJ wanted in the first place. I've also seen in INFJs and ISFJs how they would try to manipulate with Fe for example: "this thing you did makes me feel absolutely _devastated _and I can't cope with it, it was so aweful!!" To get you to appear like the bad guy unless you do what they want.
> So are strong Fe users more manipulative?
> And 2.) I have a hypothesis that healthy Fe is when the user is emotionally healthy and gives others many tips on emotional health, compliments, or just simply creates comfortable emotional environments. Unhealthy Fe on the other hand, is when the user has bad emotional health and thus just screams things out unobjectively and seems biased: "This is terrible, you're all not doing any of what you're supposed to do, I'm the only one doing what I should here!!" rather than "I need help with something".
> Maybe you have something to add to my hypothesis?


Some will see this behavior as manipulative (those that value Fi-Te) and some will not see it like this at all but might see it as genuine emotional expressions (Fe-Ti). My grandma is an ESFJ 2w3 and she does what you describe to a degree but it's more directed at you than about herself (type 2s ignore their own needs) and I find it incredibly manipulative. Some of my family members don't see it this way at all.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Depends on what you see as manipulative, I guess. Personally I can't act so if I'm being emotional it's pretty legit, but I'm sure it can still come across that way. Part of why I try to be less emotional, since I don't want to come across as the "emotionally manipulative woman"-stereotype. :bored:


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

l've seen this trick before.

l think inferior Fe would be the least likely to see through it, for me it's that l will see through behaviors like this but still give the person the benefit of the doubt and risk being wrong.

lf it turns out they were being manipulative we will never speak again lol, l wouldn't be that shocked by it though. ITP's seem to want to invest more trust in the person and don't want to believe they were manipulated.



Eh, l wouldn't say all dominant Fe types will continue with this behavior, my experience has been that when they're caught ''Fe trolling'' they generally stop or the people around them stop talking to them and no longer trust them. The inclination to manipuilate that way in the first place is concerning, but will vary from person to person.


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## Griffith (Mar 26, 2012)

Everyone manipulates.Communication is manipulating and being manipulated.

Fe are seen as manipulative because emotional manipulation is commonly considered the most frightening way of influencing someone.It's aiming at the limbic system and unconscious mind.


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## nevermore (Oct 1, 2010)

OMG WTF BRO said:


> l've seen this trick before.
> 
> l think inferior Fe would be the least likely to see through it, for me it's that l will see through behaviors like this but still give the person the benefit of the doubt and risk being wrong.
> 
> ...


I think it depends on the sort of Ti dom you are. Up till recently I was like this but more personable ITP's also are victims of this trick more, and become good at picking it up out of necessity.

I think we tend to be less sensitive and trusting too, and more likely to dig in our heels when we feel we're being treated unfairly, or when others' emotions are "misplaced". It all depends on how socially confident the ITP is; if they feel very insecure about their Fe, they might feel they need to keep as many people "on their side" as possible, which leads some to being doormats.


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## Cellar Door (Jun 3, 2012)

Mimi_2 said:


> I've known 2 ESFJs who used their Fe to manipulate others. They both would say things in a very emotional manner, like they were extremely hurt or like their feelings were extremely strong, but actually they weren't really that deeply affected, but they knew that others would react to it, by feeling bad, intimidated or becoming nicer, thus doing what the ESFJ wanted in the first place. I've also seen in INFJs and ISFJs how they would try to manipulate with Fe for example: "this thing you did makes me feel absolutely _devastated _and I can't cope with it, it was so aweful!!" To get you to appear like the bad guy unless you do what they want.
> So are strong Fe users more manipulative?
> And 2.) I have a hypothesis that healthy Fe is when the user is emotionally healthy and gives others many tips on emotional health, compliments, or just simply creates comfortable emotional environments. Unhealthy Fe on the other hand, is when the user has bad emotional health and thus just screams things out unobjectively and seems biased: "This is terrible, you're all not doing any of what you're supposed to do, I'm the only one doing what I should here!!" rather than "I need help with something".
> Maybe you have something to add to my hypothesis?


I'm not entirely convinced that what you're describing is even Fe dom behavior. Fe types don't emote to demand a response to their feelings, that's something an Fi user would do. They're only going to give you a hard time if you've broken some kind of pre-esablished social rule that creates an uncomfortable environment. ESTJs are like this, they like to get on their soap box and complain about how cruel and awful the world is and if you say anything to suggest "you know" because you've heard them a million times it personally hurts them. They're just not confident in their Fi. On the other hand an Fe user would stop what their rant or guilt trip and or tone it down and emphasize their closeness with the person. The difference between Fe and Fi is that Fe aims to actively take care of others emotional feelings (not environmental discomfort) and foster connections as their first priority, and speak their mind based on what truly makes sense second (Ti). Fi types like to emote regardless of the value or how it makes others feel, and I know their a very "pure" feel to this when seeing it in person. However, this could be considered equally manipulative because these types may not be showing enough restraint from an Fe point of view, and therefor doing it to manipulate people.


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## uncertain (May 26, 2012)

Mimi_2 said:


> I've known 2 ESFJs who used their Fe to manipulate others. They both would say things in a very emotional manner, like they were extremely hurt or like their feelings were extremely strong, but actually they weren't really that deeply affected, but they knew that others would react to it, by feeling bad, intimidated or becoming nicer, thus doing what the ESFJ wanted in the first place. I've also seen in INFJs and ISFJs how they would try to manipulate with Fe for example: "this thing you did makes me feel absolutely _devastated _and I can't cope with it, it was so aweful!!" To get you to appear like the bad guy unless you do what they want.
> So are strong Fe users more manipulative?
> And 2.) I have a hypothesis that healthy Fe is when the user is emotionally healthy and gives others many tips on emotional health, compliments, or just simply creates comfortable emotional environments. Unhealthy Fe on the other hand, is when the user has bad emotional health and thus just screams things out unobjectively and seems biased: "This is terrible, you're all not doing any of what you're supposed to do, I'm the only one doing what I should here!!" rather than "I need help with something".
> Maybe you have something to add to my hypothesis?


That's sound manipulative, and yes Fe-user are said to be more manipulative.

But how do you know that they are not as deeply hurt as they sound? How can you fake your feelings like that? Is that intentional manipulation? I don't quite understand how one can do that without being intentional, but I have read somewhere that an Fe can do such without meaning to manipulate you, so I am not sure.

For me, if I am deeply hurt, I only confess to one or two best friends cuz I don't have many to begin with. I can confess it like, I don't know how to describe it, just really badly. But I don't think I ever make it sound the most terrible thing in the world. My words don't match well with my feeling even if I try to describe my feeling well. It's usually like 50% of how strongly I feel. With acquaintances or strangers I simply don't bring up any of those.



> this thing you did makes me feel absolutely _devastated _and I can't cope with it, it was so aweful!!


Sounds terrible, but also not very convincing. I mean, really? Come on, how often can that happen?


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## userslon (Jan 29, 2013)

sux, I think manipulators are the most unhappy people.


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## elixare (Aug 26, 2010)

Both External Judging functions Fe/Te are "manipulative" in a sense that they both seek to bend/change/alter/modify/manipulate/control the external world. It's just that Fe seeks to do these to other people's subjective/emotional/affective states, which is why they come across as "manipulative". 

Te also seeks to manipulate the external reality however due to a more objective stance/less caring about other people's feelings, Te comes across as more direct as opposed to Fe's "manipulativeness" despite the fact that Te is just as hell bent on "manipulating/controlling" the external world, including other people


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## yarrboots (Mar 6, 2013)

From my experience Fe doms are more likely to use emotional blackmail on you. Sneaky MFs.
Then they over-think the experience and re-interpret it over and over until they come to terms with a conclusion they're satisfied with.

Although Te users are equally likely to utilize this, they're less sensitive to the emotional repercussions, making Fe recipients fairly vulnerable to off-the-cuff statements made by the former.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

I find ENFJs in particular rather manipulative, though I don't think they really INTEND to be. Or, it's not conscious. I just mean, it seems they like to try to create certain reactions or influence the interaction to go a very specific way. Which, that's just human, we all do that... but their method of achieving this kind of strikes me as particularly manipulative because as a Fi-dom I'm often gauging things by my feelings or internal systems of judgment. And to have my feelings kinda "messed with" like that, even if it's just on a surface or immediate level... eh, I'm a little defensive. But that's just how they relate I guess.

The ESFJs I know tend to also evoke or promote certain emotional reactions but that seems more like trying to cultivate an atmosphere than anything. I dunno what I'm even saying anymore.


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## kadda1212 (Sep 21, 2012)

I'm not a very manipulative person, I think. At least not anymore. I think, I can remember that I acted very manipulative as a child in order to have some amount of control over my friends. But usually when they did something that hurt me.
But because of the resonance I received whenever I for example explained my feelings to them, explained that they hurt me in an emotional way in order to receive an apology - and that resonance was very bad - I completely stopped doing that. Today it's so hard for me to even say that I'm hurt. I just keep quiet, while there's a storm of emotions going on inside of me.
My grandma however is very manipulative. She's an ESFJ and she really wants to take control over the whole family.


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## SuperSoaker (Aug 19, 2013)

My experience says they do. 

I think they need to feel that they are better than others in their social environment and one way to do so is by manipulating people. It's easier to change other people than themselves, takes less effort and fits better with their cognitive functions.

I think this is kind of connected to that at least some of them view their partner as an extension of themselves, which also means they can 'change' themselves by changing their partner or kids or...
Everything other than looking inwards feels OK.

Yeah, and maybe Te is the same, just different languages.

Don't think there's bad intention behind - at least I hope not, but the results are the same.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

In my experience Fe doms arn't more manipulative.
I've met several very manipulative people of all types. 
What they have in common is a disregard for other people.
I think it is too easy to blame all our problems on these functions.
However I will not deny that the conflicts spurred by them are very significant.
Manipulation often is just one person doing the only thing they can do from where they stand,
and another feeling trapped and trampled by that action.


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## SuperSoaker (Aug 19, 2013)

For me I want to know why certain types act in a certain way, not to blame any function or group. 

In my understanding and experience esfj live through others. When their boundries are not clear they see people as a part of themselves and that can be both good and bad depending on the circumstances. They also invest a lot in others which makes them demanding and prone to manipulation. I don't say it's evil though. Most often I think they have good intentions, but the result may vary.


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## SuperSoaker (Aug 19, 2013)

I do believe that they think that if they do x to you, you should respond with y and if you don't like x and won't respond with y then the problem starts because they can't handle it and take it personal.

Like respect me for not wanting x and not wanting to do y. Respect me as a person with my own interests and decisions.


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## Griffith (Mar 26, 2012)

SuperSoaker said:


> I do believe that they think that if they do x to you, you should respond with y and if you don't like x and won't respond with y then the problem starts because they can't handle it and take it personal.
> 
> Like respect me for not wanting x and not wanting to do y. Respect me as a person with my own interests and decisions.


I think this is less the case with NFJ, but since the % of SFJ is way higher, people tend to associate Fe with Si related behaviour.I guess SFJs are more likely to act like this, they internalise habits and rules, the combination of Fe+Si = moral code and if you don't respect this they will go mad against you.I've experienced this shit with many ESFJs.Ni users have a very personalised view, independant and timeless perspective on how people should behave with each other, they are not bound to traditions (see the life of Jesus).NFJs will dig into your character and find excuses (your background, personal story) for your behaviour, and they will treat you like trash only if they guess something is really wrong with you, or if their internal map of reality is already fucked up.


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## Surreal Snake (Nov 17, 2009)

No,just more annoying:crazy:


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## toma (Sep 18, 2013)

If one suggested! you need to..pull (x)...the rip cord ...on your parachute after jumping out from a plane. What happens if you do not like x and y?..lol

If one is in a life and death situation such as addiction for instance, one soon learns to think carefully when one suggests things that just may save his/her life. I always say "it is your choice I am only suggesting" If your choice is to not pull the rip cord I can live with that. If you are not given a choice then you are being manipulated. My thoughts only.


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## Mimi_2 (Apr 29, 2013)

Griffith said:


> Everyone manipulates.Communication is manipulating and being manipulated.
> 
> Fe are seen as manipulative because emotional manipulation is commonly considered the most frightening way of influencing someone.It's aiming at the limbic system and unconscious mind.


It's more Ti hiding sneaky plans behind the friendly outer Fe mask that makes it appear manipulative. To me, Te doesn't have potential for hidden agendas as much as Ti. That doesn't turn all Te users into saints, it's just a preference.
Also, Ti dominants don't come across like this as much because of their supressed Fe.


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## Mimi_2 (Apr 29, 2013)

Griffith said:


> I think this is less the case with NFJ, but since the % of SFJ is way higher, people tend to associate Fe with Si related behaviour.I guess SFJs are more likely to act like this, they internalise habits and rules, the combination of Fe+Si = moral code and if you don't respect this they will go mad against you.I've experienced this shit with many ESFJs.Ni users have a very personalised view, independant and timeless perspective on how people should behave with each other, they are not bound to traditions (see the life of Jesus).NFJs will dig into your character and find excuses (your background, personal story) for your behaviour, and they will treat you like trash only if they guess something is really wrong with you, or if their internal map of reality is already fucked up.


Yes, not only fussy about the Si habits and rules being followed but what I find more ridiculous, something I've seen in quite a few of them: That they will bicker, criticize and try to get you to follow their traditions oftentimes through emotional manipulation, sometimes even bullying (laughing at those who don't do so, putting people who don't do it down behind their backs, trying to guilt trip, intimidate, etc etc). Yet, if you criticize, attack, etc them in the same way, they will throw a temper tantrum at the slightest _almost _hurt feeling. Extremely sensitive to others showing them respect at all times, while they don't care how their tantrums affect others (since they feel entitled to enforce Si). 
<There may be ESFJs this doesn't apply to, but I have observed the same thing in quite a few of them>


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

ISFJ aren't Fe dominant. Fe is auxiliary. I don't see my husband as any more manipulative than other types. 

I see him using Fe in positive ways and I've never seen him be sneaky with it. 


This all seems very paranoid to me.


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## KraChZiMan (Mar 23, 2013)

I have an INFJ brother and an ISFJ mother, and they both have Fe auxillary, while my step-dad is an ISFP. It's funny to observe how my mother and brother descend into longer rants when they want me to agree on some offer, while my step-dad rashly wants to know if I agree or not, and only explains the offer in more detail if I have agreed with it. If not, he turns passive-aggressive and maybe throws a random insult before apologizing and accepting my decision.


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## thinking_one (Jun 26, 2013)

KraChZiMan said:


> I have an INFJ brother and an ISFJ mother, and they both have Fe auxillary, while my step-dad is an ISFP. It's funny to observe how my mother and brother descend into longer rants when they want me to agree on some offer, while my step-dad rashly wants to know if I agree or not, and only explains the offer in more detail if I have agreed with it. If not, he turns passive-aggressive and maybe throws a random insult before apologizing and accepting my decision.


Wow, I find that really interesting, your family arrangement, all of the introverted feelers in mbti.


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## LittleOrange (Feb 11, 2012)

I feel like Fe types can be manipulative without saying anything....with emotional communication....has anyone experienced it?


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## SuperSoaker (Aug 19, 2013)

After reading more about enneagram it must be that most of my experience comes from unhealthy/average enneagram type 2 ESFJs. 

And they seem to fit the manipulating part quite well: 2 - Enneagram Type Two: The Helper

I would really want to meet some healthy ones to see the difference and make me think in different ways.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

SuperSoaker said:


> After reading more about enneagram it must be that most of my experience comes from unhealthy/average enneagram type 2 ESFJs.
> 
> And they seem to fit the manipulating part quite well: 2 - Enneagram Type Two: The Helper
> 
> I would really want to meet some healthy ones to see the difference and make me think in different ways.


What percentage of types do you have a problem with? In a previous post you said all the ESTP's you've encountered were bullies. The ESFJ's you've met were manipulative. Not to pick on you personally, you're not the first. There seem to be some posters that just have issues with types that don't tend post on MBTI forums. 

I have difficulty believing that people aren't meeting healthy versions of these other types. I suspect they meet healthy versions of these types and mistype them.


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## SuperSoaker (Aug 19, 2013)

monemi said:


> What percentage of types do you have a problem with? In a previous post you said all the ESTP's you've encountered were bullies. The ESFJ's you've met were manipulative. Not to pick on you personally, you're not the first. There seem to be some posters that just have issues with types that don't tend post on MBTI forums.
> 
> I have difficulty believing that people aren't meeting healthy versions of these other types. I suspect they meet healthy versions of these types and mistype them.


I think it's easier to type unhealthy versions and I know that my first mission is to understand the unhealthy ones. The entire reason for my interest in MBTI and psychology is unhealthy people around me. This is a flaw in me, but I will move pass that when I can understand the flaws that has been.

I haven't even begun typing the healthy ones in my life (well my current closest, closest friends).

As for ESTPs the ones I've been able to type has acted like bullies towards me. I do think that it is because they are afraid of me at first, but when we get to know each other we usually connect real good. For instance at my current job an ESTP acted like a dick towards me when I was really stressed out from all the new stuff. When he learned that I was useful and wouldn't steal his place he became friendly towards me. Se without Fe I feel can be bully material.


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## SuperSoaker (Aug 19, 2013)

I do have problems with INFPs because of communication as well, but it's getting better as I understand more.


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## SuperSoaker (Aug 19, 2013)

What I meant about the post about enneagram type 2 is that already at level 4 to me it's kind of prone to manipulation. And if many Fe doms are enneagram type 2 that could explain this in some way.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

SuperSoaker said:


> I think it's easier to type unhealthy versions and I know that my first mission is to understand the unhealthy ones. The entire reason for my interest in MBTI and psychology is unhealthy people around me. This is a flaw in me, but I will move pass that when I can understand the flaws that has been.
> 
> I haven't even begun typing the healthy ones in my life (well my current closest, closest friends).
> 
> As for ESTPs the ones I've been able to type has acted like bullies towards me. I do think that it is because they are afraid of me at first, but when we get to know each other we usually connect real good. For instance at my current job an ESTP acted like a dick towards me when I was really stressed out from all the new stuff. When he learned that I was useful and wouldn't steal his place he became friendly towards me. Se without Fe I feel can be bully material.


I don't think ESTP's are any more prone to being bullies than other types. I've never been a bully. At worst, if I'm having difficulty figuring someone out, I'll push a few buttons to see what they do. I learn best through interaction. If they get butthurt, then I know better than to waste anymore time on them. If they tell me to fuck off, I'm amused but respect their clearly defined boundaries. If they have a sense of humour, they'll poke fun back and we have banter! Yes! I have a playmate! If they retaliate, it's on! Competition! If they don't react, then I get annoyed and keep poking with a stick. 

Most people, I get a general sense of right off the bat. No button pushing required. Some perk my interest because I really don't know what to make of them. In no way, would I say I'm a bully.


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## SuperSoaker (Aug 19, 2013)

monemi said:


> I don't think ESTP's are any more prone to being bullies than other types. I've never been a bully. At worst, if I'm having difficulty figuring someone out, I'll push a few buttons to see what they do. I learn best through interaction. If they get butthurt, then I know better than to waste anymore time on them. If they tell me to fuck off, I'm amused but respect their clearly defined boundaries. If they have a sense of humour, they'll poke fun back and we have banter! Yes! I have a playmate! If they retaliate, it's on! Competition! If they don't react, then I get annoyed and keep poking with a stick.
> 
> Most people, I get a general sense of right off the bat. No button pushing required. Some perk my interest because I really don't know what to make of them. In no way, would I say I'm a bully.


The button pushing can be viewed as bullying. I almost smashed an ESTPs face in because he wanted to test some of my buttons... After that I guess I got respect, but I hate for it to go that far. Let my buttons be! 

I also like to test people, but I do it way more subtle. I think it's your lack of Ni, you have to see what happens.


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## SuperSoaker (Aug 19, 2013)

monemi said:


> I don't think ESTP's are any more prone to being bullies than other types. I've never been a bully. At worst, if I'm having difficulty figuring someone out, I'll push a few buttons to see what they do. I learn best through interaction. If they get butthurt, then I know better than to waste anymore time on them. If they tell me to fuck off, I'm amused but respect their clearly defined boundaries. If they have a sense of humour, they'll poke fun back and we have banter! Yes! I have a playmate! If they retaliate, it's on! Competition! If they don't react, then I get annoyed and keep poking with a stick.
> 
> Most people, I get a general sense of right off the bat. No button pushing required. Some perk my interest because I really don't know what to make of them. In no way, would I say I'm a bully.


Thank you, by writing that I understand more why I see you as bullies at first.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

SuperSoaker said:


> The button pushing can be viewed as bullying. I almost smashed an ESTPs face in because he wanted to test some of my buttons... After that I guess I got respect, but I hate for it to go that far. Let my buttons be!
> 
> I also like to test people, but I do it way more subtle. I think it's your lack of Ni, you have to see what happens.


That's not bullying, that's curiosity. And no, I'm not particularly good at guessing what's going to happen when I do things. I'm well aware my intuition isn't so good. Can you blame a person for leading with their strengths? 

If you had punched the ESTP's lights out, I'm sure they would have been happy to oblige with a grin. Not that I like seeing people get hurt, but a little adrenalin is good for you. Wouldn't be the first time an ESTP pushed the wrong button or did something impulsive. We learn from experience. Life is a harsh teacher, she gives the test first and the lesson afterwards.


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## SuperSoaker (Aug 19, 2013)

monemi said:


> That's not bullying, that's curiosity. And no, I'm not particularly good at guessing what's going to happen when I do things. I'm well aware my intuition isn't so good. Can you blame a person for leading with their strengths?


For YOU it's curiosity I get that. For the other one well... If you press the launch nuclear missile guess what's gonna happen?
You like to play that game and most don't like it when you do, that's why they think you're a bully.

The ESTP didn't smile at that time, trust me.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

SuperSoaker said:


> For YOU it's curiosity I get that. For the other one well... If you press the launch nuclear missile guess what's gonna happen?
> You like to play that game and most don't like it when you do, that's why they think you're a bully.
> 
> The ESTP didn't smile at that time, trust me.


It's not often that I don't get along with people. Maybe it's because I'm a woman and my default facial expression is 'about to laugh'. Women can get away with stuff men can't and vice versa. 

The ESTP didn't smile when you hit him? Or he didn't smile when you threatened to hit him? He probably wasn't aware that you were that annoyed, it was news.

ETA: Yeah, I've definitely pushed the wrong buttons sometimes. Hasn't everyone and don't we have the scars to show for it?


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## PaladinX (Feb 20, 2013)

In this clip you can find many examples of Fe manipulation:


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## SuperSoaker (Aug 19, 2013)

monemi said:


> It's not often that I don't get along with people. Maybe it's because I'm a woman and my default facial expression is 'about to laugh'. Women can get away with stuff men can't and vice versa.
> 
> The ESTP didn't smile when you hit him? Or he didn't smile when you threatened to hit him? He probably wasn't aware that you were that annoyed, it was news.
> 
> ETA: Yeah, I've definitely pushed the wrong buttons sometimes. Hasn't everyone and don't we have the scars to show for it?


That's the thing. People notice that you push buttons just to push buttons and get irritated by it. Intent is very important for most people. Also that you don't seem to care that you hurt people by pushing their buttons makes you a bully.

As I said I understand why and I think you should understand why some people think that ESTPs are bullies.

In some ways this feels like talking Ti to an ESFJ, but I think you should be able to connect in some way.


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## Empress Appleia Cattius XII (Dec 22, 2010)

I often have to stop myself being manipulative from time to time. 
I find it very easy to portray myself as a victim, and to make people feel sorry for me. 
It's not really a quality I like about myself.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

SuperSoaker said:


> That's the thing. People notice that you push buttons just to push buttons and get irritated by it. Intent is very important for most people. Also that you don't seem to care that you hurt people by pushing their buttons makes you a bully.
> 
> As I said I understand why and I think you should understand why some people think that ESTPs are bullies.
> 
> In some ways this feels like talking Ti to an ESFJ, but I think you should be able to connect in some way.


If I didn't care, I wouldn't bother responding to your posts. Not many people react negatively to my methods. I've never been accused of bullying, I've never led a clique or anything of the sort. It's possible some ESTP's button pushing is bullying or perceived to be bullying. But generally speaking, as a type, ESTP's put a lot of effort into being socially acceptable. Bullying won't endear you to others. Maybe a few get irritated by us, but we wouldn't be known for charm if most people interpreted our behaviour as annoying.


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## SuperSoaker (Aug 19, 2013)

monemi said:


> If I didn't care, I wouldn't bother responding to your posts. Not many people react negatively to my methods. I've never been accused of bullying, I've never led a clique or anything of the sort. It's possible some ESTP's button pushing is bullying or perceived to be bullying. But generally speaking, as a type, ESTP's put a lot of effort into being socially acceptable. Bullying won't endear you to others. Maybe a few get irritated by us, but we wouldn't be known for charm if most people interpreted our behaviour as annoying.


Maybe we should start a new thread about this? Yes you put a lot of effort into being socially acceptable and that's what lets you get away with it.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

PaladinX said:


> In this clip you can find many examples of Fe manipulation:


Yeah, but it's far from sneaky. It's so obvious that it's funny.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

SuperSoaker said:


> Maybe we should start a new thread about this? Yes you put a lot of effort into being socially acceptable and that's what lets you get away with it.


Get away with it? All it takes to make us stop is to tell us to stop. It's not that complicated or terrible.


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## SuperSoaker (Aug 19, 2013)

monemi said:


> Get away with it? All it takes to make us stop is to tell us to stop. It's not that complicated or terrible.


I think I'll say the same to the next person I punch in the face.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

SuperSoaker said:


> I think I'll say the same to the next person I punch in the face.


If you go around punching people in the face whenever you have a problem with them, it reflects badly on you, not them. Grow up.


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## SuperSoaker (Aug 19, 2013)

monemi said:


> If you go around punching people in the face whenever you have a problem with them, it reflects badly on you, not them. Grow up.


They like to project as well "it's not my problem if I hurt other people, it's my right to push other peoples buttons". You wanted to know and now you know, what you choose to do with the information is up to you.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

SuperSoaker said:


> They like to project as well "it's not my problem if I hurt other people, it's my right to push other peoples buttons". You wanted to know and now you know, what you choose to do with the information is up to you.


ESTP's are always going to be prone to pushing buttons here and there. There's no ill-intent. People push my buttons. My recourse isn't to punch them or throw a temper tantrum. Other types are going to annoy you as well. You're going to need to develop better coping mechanisms. Every human interaction requires defined boundaries. Clearly define yours and you won't need to freak out about people overstepping them.


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## SuperSoaker (Aug 19, 2013)

monemi said:


> ESTP's are always going to be prone to pushing buttons here and there. There's no ill-intent. People push my buttons. My recourse isn't to punch them or throw a temper tantrum. Other types are going to annoy you as well. You're going to need to develop better coping mechanisms. Every human interaction requires defined boundaries. Clearly define yours and you won't need to freak out about people overstepping them.


I'm trying to be objective and you're not. I don't throw temper tantrum but if someone wants to test me by being physical with me I will respond in the same manner. You wanted to know why some people find ESTPs to be bullies and now you know.

What's interesting to me is how you talk about how others should cope with what you do instead of you thinking on how to act in a better way. I guess this could be a extroverted vs introverted thing.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

SuperSoaker said:


> I'm trying to be objective and you're not. I don't throw temper tantrum but if someone wants to test me by being physical with me I will respond in the same manner. You wanted to know why some people find ESTPs to be bullies and now you know.
> 
> What's interesting to me is how you talk about how others should cope with what you do instead of you thinking on how to act in a better way. I guess this could be a extroverted vs introverted thing.


Where did I allude to anything physical? It doesn't take a genius to know better than to touch someone you don't know in anything more than a handshake. Are you sure this was an ESTP that did this or was it a kid or an ESTP with a decidedly low IQ?


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## KraChZiMan (Mar 23, 2013)

thinking_one said:


> Wow, I find that really interesting, your family arrangement, all of the introverted feelers in mbti.


Thank you :tongue:

What about introverted feelers? Because ISFJ and INFJ are extroverted feelers..


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## thinking_one (Jun 26, 2013)

KraChZiMan said:


> Thank you :tongue:
> 
> What about introverted feelers? Because ISFJ and INFJ are extroverted feelers..


Oh, I meant IXFXs not Fi.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

I have had two ESFJs, one a young man, the other a middle age woman, both of considerable intelligence and curiosity, explain their thought processes to me.

In both cases they admitted to or even bragged about their abilities to make other people feel guilty, to squelch their own true feelings in the name of the goal of.manipulation of the desired other, showed impatience with me for being less artful with feeling, and seemed perplexed because as an SP I can indeed be a good spontaneous adapter when I see an advantage, and they mistook this for a similarity of mind (in fact in Socionics ESFj and ESFp are something like false reflection).

I think other types are manipulating in different ways, to be manipulating is to be human, we all want things, they just raise it to an ethically justifiable art form.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

SuperSoaker said:


> That's the thing. People notice that you push buttons just to push buttons and get irritated by it. Intent is very important for most people. Also that you don't seem to care that you hurt people by pushing their buttons makes you a bully.
> 
> As I said I understand why and I think you should understand why some people think that ESTPs are bullies.
> 
> In some ways this feels like talking Ti to an ESFJ, but I think you should be able to connect in some way.


Yes I find EXTPs to be button pushers, but without the finesse or ethical reasoning of an EXFJ...even when I disagree with an Fe dom reasoning, they are sure to themselves they have an ethically sound reason for doing so. The EXTP may just do it to see what happens or for the lulz.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Mimi_2 said:


> Yes, not only fussy about the Si habits and rules being followed but what I find more ridiculous, something I've seen in quite a few of them: That they will bicker, criticize and try to get you to follow their traditions oftentimes through emotional manipulation, sometimes even bullying (laughing at those who don't do so, putting people who don't do it down behind their backs, trying to guilt trip, intimidate, etc etc). Yet, if you criticize, attack, etc them in the same way, they will throw a temper tantrum at the slightest _almost _hurt feeling. Extremely sensitive to others showing them respect at all times, while they don't care how their tantrums affect others (since they feel entitled to enforce Si).
> <There may be ESFJs this doesn't apply to, but I have observed the same thing in quite a few of them>


I am going to have to agree they are like this at low points. My ESFJ friend will put on the hugest and most manipulative theatrical moves to get you to conform to her game plan, usually something insinuating or outright declaring you a bad person, but not amiss are tears, "you shouldn't feel that way" and so forth.

Two ESFJ males I knew, one my live in bf of six years, the other a gay friend, both were unperturbed about the laughing, the shaming, the gossip, etc. To try to get their way.

However all three are also warm, affectionate, generous, loyal, and charming talkative companions.

All types have their good and bad points.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Cellar Door said:


> I'm not entirely convinced that what you're describing is even Fe dom behavior. Fe types don't emote to demand a response to their feelings, that's something an Fi user would do. They're only going to give you a hard time if you've broken some kind of pre-esablished social rule that creates an uncomfortable environment. ESTJs are like this, they like to get on their soap box and complain about how cruel and awful the world is and if you say anything to suggest "you know" because you've heard them a million times it personally hurts them. They're just not confident in their Fi. On the other hand an Fe user would stop what their rant or guilt trip and or tone it down and emphasize their closeness with the person. The difference between Fe and Fi is that Fe aims to actively take care of others emotional feelings (not environmental discomfort) and foster connections as their first priority, and speak their mind based on what truly makes sense second (Ti). Fi types like to emote regardless of the value or how it makes others feel, and I know their a very "pure" feel to this when seeing it in person. However, this could be considered equally manipulative because these types may not be showing enough restraint from an Fe point of view, and therefor doing it to manipulate people.


Actually yes and no. The Fi type emotes without artifice so they may emote to their shame and detriment, as well as to the discomfort of others. An Fi scene is more authentic, but for the same reason may be viewed as inappropriate, pathetic, or even dangerous in the case of a pissed off limbic Se type.

Fe intentionally embarrasses you. Fi unintentionally may embarrass everyone.


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## KraChZiMan (Mar 23, 2013)

thinking_one said:


> Oh, I meant IXFXs not Fi.


Ah, yeah . Interesting indeed. :tongue:

It's just that my actual dad is an INTJ, and our family maintained itself pretty well. Since my stepdad is an ISFP, it's little more different, because he is an obvious extroverted sensor, and it's something little different to our introverted-sensing-based family to handle.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Hornet said:


> In my experience Fe doms arn't more manipulative.
> I've met several very manipulative people of all types.
> What they have in common is a disregard for other people.
> I think it is too easy to blame all our problems on these functions.
> ...


Oh certainly, for example, an Se dom may manipulate you to achieve an end, like sex or money, and use Te or Fe to support this kind of spontaneous manipulation of the environment.

And this can come across as a complete disregard for other people. Because it is.

However I have had multiple Fe doms take me in as a confidant and explain themselves to me. They do manipulate people. But their motives are ethical or social control. They think it's for the best when they are healthy and mature. They think it makes them superior or popular when immature or unhealthy.


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## SuperSoaker (Aug 19, 2013)

fourtines said:


> Oh certainly, for example, an Se dom may manipulate you to achieve an end, like sex or money, and use Te or Fe to support this kind of spontaneous manipulation of the environment.
> 
> And this can come across as a complete disregard for other people. Because it is.
> 
> However I have had multiple Fe doms take me in as a confidant and explain themselves to me. They do manipulate people. But their motives are ethical or social control. They think it's for the best when they are healthy and mature. They think it makes them superior or popular when immature or unhealthy.


I've actually heard an immature (but old) ESTP boast about beeing a bully and that he always has been. And yeah he took pride in that.

Maybe this is an immature/average extrovert thing?


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