# Creativity and S vs N



## musicalmeggie (Sep 26, 2011)

I feel like sometimes N's have a reputation for being the most creative, the "think outside the box" kind of people, but I think that a lot of the most creative people I have met are S's. The ones who are crafty and artsy and musical and very successful in these things, are typically S's. I suppose that there are different types of creativity. I don't consider myself a very creative person just because I have never been very artistic, and while I love music and singing (see my username =P) I don't write songs or anything as well as my S friends. Also, that being said, I think often times people mistype because of these stereotypes. 

Anyway, sorry for my rambling, but I was just wondering your thoughts on creativity and how it relates to these cognitive functions. 

Thanks


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## PinkDolphin (Jul 7, 2012)

musicalmeggie said:


> I feel like sometimes N's have a reputation for being the most creative, the "think outside the box" kind of people, but I think that a lot of the most creative people I have met are S's. The ones who are crafty and artsy and musical and very successful in these things, are typically S's. I suppose that there are different types of creativity. I don't consider myself a very creative person just because I have never been very artistic, and while I love music and singing (see my username =P) I don't write songs or anything as well as my S friends. Also, that being said, I think often times people mistype because of these stereotypes.
> 
> Anyway, sorry for my rambling, but I was just wondering your thoughts on creativity and how it relates to these cognitive functions.
> 
> Thanks


I think you're right! My Mom is an S, and one of the most creative people I know. In fact, her job is one that requires great creativity and people enjoy seeing her crafts.


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## Emerson (Mar 13, 2011)

Outsie the box thinking is more Ti than N of any form. Or Pe functions as a whole.


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

Why wouldn't a preference toward Sensing help when creating art or music?


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## reckful (Jun 19, 2012)

My understanding is that, if you distinguish _art_ from _crafts_ – to use a familiar distinction – then, statistically speaking, most types of creative artists (using that term broadly) are disproportionately populated by N's. Browsing the statistics in the MBTI Manual, it looks like maybe a P preference has the 2nd-biggest influence on artistic interests, with F in 3rd place.

Of the 114 professional fine artists in one study shown in the second edition of the MBTI Manual, 91% of them were N's (65% NF and 26% NT). More specifically, 25 were INFP and only one was ISFP.

The list of occupational rankings along the SN dimension at the back of the MBTI Manual (based on a variety of studies in the MBTI database) includes the following entries:


Photographers: 73% N
Teachers of art, drama & music: 71% N
Artists & entertainers (broad category): 69% N
Musicians & composers: 65% N
Designers: 58% N

There are _no_ artistic occupations that are majority S.

And all these N majorities are particularly noteworthy in light of the fact that N's are typically reported to make up only around 25-30% of the general population.

Focusing on NFs in particular, Keirsey says: "Although [NFs] make up only about 12 percent of the general population, ... their influence on the minds of the populace is massive, for most writers come from this group. Novelists, dramatists, television writers, playwrights, journalists, poets, and biographers are almost exclusively NFs."

There's another complication, though. The neurotic (_aka_ Limbic) side of the fifth Big 5 temperament dimension that doesn't have a corresponding MBTI dimension (sometimes called "neuroticism" or "emotional stability") also seems to correlate with artistic interests and abilities.

Here's a Big 5 personality test by a Berkeley psychologist, and it uses artistic interests to test for three out of the five Big 5 dimensions.


"Has few artistic interests" is used to test for Extraversion.
"Values artistic, aesthetic experiences" is used to test for Openness to Experience/Intellect (the Big 5 version of N).
"Is sophisticated in art, music, or literature" is used to test for Neuroticism.

If there's a single type that deserves to be viewed as the _quintessential_ "creative artist" type, it's arguably the neurotic INFP.


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## StellarTwirl (Jul 1, 2012)

reckful said:


> "Has few artistic interests" is used to test for Extraversion.



Wow, really?? I wonder why that is.

When they say artistic interests, do they mean actually MAKING art, because then maybe an extrovert might be less likely to focus.

Or do they mean APPRECIATING art? That one is puzzling. Maybe they see people as more interesting than art. But people express the core of themselves through art, so if you're interested in people, it would seem easy to be interested in art. Weird.


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## reckful (Jun 19, 2012)

StellarTwirl said:


> When they say artistic interests, do they mean actually MAKING art, because then maybe an extrovert might be less likely to focus.
> 
> Or do they mean APPRECIATING art?


The way the test is written, each choice is preceded by "I see myself as someone who...", and then you have five choices, ranging from Strongly Disagree to Strongly Agree.

It seems like it pretty much goes without saying that a person who actually _makes_ art to any significant extent is going to strongly disagree with "has few artistic interests," and I'd also think someone who just significantly _appreciates_ art to any significant extent is also going to either disagree or strongly disagree. And if you figure the former group is mostly a limited subset of the latter group, then it's probably fair to say that the question is mostly going to distinguish people who appreciate art (including makers of art) from people who aren't even interested in art from an appreciation standpoint.


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## StellarTwirl (Jul 1, 2012)

reckful said:


> The way the test is written, each choice is preceded by "I see myself as someone who...", and then you have five choices, ranging from Strongly Disagree to Strongly Agree.
> 
> It seems like it pretty much goes without saying that a person who actually _makes_ art to any significant extent is going to strongly disagree with "has few artistic interests," and I'd also think someone who just significantly _appreciates_ art to any significant extent is also going to either disagree or strongly disagree. And if you figure the former group is mostly a limited subset of the latter group, then it's probably fair to say that the question is mostly going to distinguish people who appreciate art (including makers of art) from people who aren't even interested in art from an appreciation standpoint.


Do you think the extrovert might be less interested in art because they see it as not being experiential enough? Maybe, in a way, they see it as more of a monologue than a dialogue? That art is more thinking about existence instead of existing? (which is very different from my view of it)


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

I dunno. In my experience having grown up in the business, a lot of Hollywood, especially when you get down to the below-the-line positions are very, very S, but perhaps that doesn't count as art ;-). Same goes with fields like interior design and _some_ architecture (but admittedly many architects are thinking-intuitive).


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## electricky (Feb 18, 2011)

At first when these topics come up I'm inclined to say "okay, maybe yes there is something sort of _creative_ about the intuitive process" but then I remember when most people think about creativity they think of art. Like real, tangible, actually-working-with-stuff art. 

No wonder sensing rules so much there....


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## reckful (Jun 19, 2012)

StellarTwirl said:


> Do you think the extrovert might be less interested in art because they see it as not being experiential enough? Maybe, in a way, they see it as more of a monologue than a dialogue? That art is more thinking about existence instead of existing? (which is very different from my view of it)


I think I'd frame it a little differently and say that maybe the biggest E/I factor is that appreciation of art is a passive activity that you engage in primarily for the impact that it has on your own inner world (feeding your head, if you will) and, all other things being equal, a typical extravert is going to tend to be more interested in doing things where they're an active participant.


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## reckful (Jun 19, 2012)

ElectricSparkle said:


> At first when these topics come up I'm inclined to say "okay, maybe yes there is something sort of _creative_ about the intuitive process" but then I remember when most people think about creativity they think of art. Like real, tangible, actually-working-with-stuff art.
> 
> No wonder sensing rules so much there....


As I understand it (and consistent with the statistics I described), the fact that an artist is working with physical "stuff" (e.g., paint) doesn't really favor an S preference. In discussing the fine arts study I mentioned (where the fine artists were 91% N's), the MBTI Manual explains: "Because true creativity in the arts requires highly differentiated use of tools and materials, one might expect artists to prefer sensing perception rather than intuition. Empirically, N types outnumber S types in art students and among artists. The theoretical explanation is that the insights and inspirations provided by intuition are more important, but true artistic skill requires the development of S skills for use in the service of N inspirations."


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## TaylorS (Jan 24, 2010)

S & N have nothing to do with creativity, intelligence, or open-mindedness.

According to Carl Jung Sensation is the psychological function dealing with conscious perception while Intuition deals with unconscious perceptions filtered through the Collective Unconscious and come into consciousness as gut-level "just knowing".

When you have a "gut feeling" that something bad happened, that's Intuition. When you say the right answer and don't know how you got it, that's Intuition.


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## blueandviolet (Feb 13, 2012)

StellarTwirl said:


> Do you think the extrovert might be less interested in art because they see it as not being experiential enough? Maybe, in a way, they see it as more of a monologue than a dialogue? That art is more thinking about existence instead of existing? (which is very different from my view of it)


I definitely agree with your hypothesis here. My Mom (an ESFJ) for example, would prefer to say "oh that's an interesting/good painting," appreciate for a moment, and then move on to having lunch and conversing. Whereas I as I want to sit there with the painting and let it sink in and feel how it relates to my experiences and wonder about the artists influences. I may get lost in my head, and be either moved or off in my thoughts based on how the art affected me. The depth for my Mom would be in talking about the museum and how the day is going, planning ahead. The depth for me would be in feeling moved/changed by the art. 
With relation to the N thought, my brother might be an ENFJ, and is the outgoing entertainer type, but feels extremely moved by music (celtic, Enya) and LOTRs movies. I dunno, just a thought about the differences in experience based on my _observation_ of differences in my own family. I'm obviously not in the head of an ESFJ, but that would be my read on how my Mother sees it.


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## Wakachi (May 24, 2012)

I personally frown at the idea of creativity being related to the "arts" exclusively because it's not the tangible product, but the idea of what makes you feel like a human being. As a person who goes to art school, I see many people whose life is on the line based on what's on their mind. Does it make them any different that they're trying to communicate to people at all? If it makes you feel like a human being, it is practical, and it is art. Being able to invite novelty is a survival skill, if not just for the emotions of boredom. It does not matter if it is "objectively novel" - should the people in the east consider western ideas and vice versa?

Society also does not accept all ideas because they are subject to values. However, it is also injustice to undermine another person's subjectivity as gooder or badder than another. 

In b4 creativety is "something the norm doesn't understand", because even if geniuses occur, we must also account all the emo-kids, punks, and hipsters who seem to do so many things for the sake of self-absorption and elitism. Art can be the kind conversation you had with a Sensing Feeling type and people are creative as they are, because people outside our bodies are mysterious. It is new, it is foreign. Right now as I'm typing this, I'm still typing to influence others in the best way I can.


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## The Nth Doctor (May 18, 2012)

blueandviolet said:


> I definitely agree with your hypothesis here. My Mom (an ESFJ) for example, would prefer to say "oh that's an interesting/good painting," appreciate for a moment, and then move on to having lunch and conversing. Whereas I as I want to sit there with the painting and let it sink in and feel how it relates to my experiences and wonder about the artists influences. I may get lost in my head, and be either moved or off in my thoughts based on how the art affected me. The depth for my Mom would be in talking about the museum and how the day is going, planning ahead. The depth for me would be in feeling moved/changed by the art.
> With relation to the N thought, my brother might be an ENFJ, and is the outgoing entertainer type, but feels extremely moved by music (celtic, Enya) and LOTRs movies. I dunno, just a thought about the differences in experience based on my _observation_ of differences in my own family. I'm obviously not in the head of an ESFJ, but that would be my read on how my Mother sees it.


I get what you're saying, but I'm an introverted intuitive too, and I don't have much depth in my appreciation of art. I think it's very nice, but if I look at it for long I'm thinking about what the artist might have been thinking when they made it, or maybe looking for interesting bits in the corners - I'm not ever actually moved by it. 

I think that would also at least partially have to do with Thinking and Feeling types.


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## blueandviolet (Feb 13, 2012)

Prof. Song said:


> I get what you're saying, but I'm an introverted intuitive too, and I don't have much depth in my appreciation of art. I think it's very nice, but if I look at it for long I'm thinking about what the artist might have been thinking when they made it, or maybe looking for interesting bits in the corners - I'm not ever actually moved by it.
> 
> I think that would also at least partially have to do with Thinking and Feeling types.


I understand what you mean here about INs not necessarily feeling moved by the art. You are probably right that the T/F makes part of the difference in terms of our felt experience of art. But I would also say that I do not as often seek out fine art, nor feel quite as moved, as I do by say music, theater, literature and film. This may be in part because of the accessibility of fine art. Between making the trip to the museum and expending some energy in the process of interpreting, fine art is a little bit more challenging for me. But i still like it, in part for those very reasons. A museum trip feels a lot more intentional and interactive than choosing something cool on netflix. 

On a side note, I wish I had more friends who were fine artists! One of my favorite people from college was an INFP and a ceramicist, definitely on my 'best people ever' list. I've never been able to "let go" enough to do ceramics!


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## nakkinaama (Jun 20, 2012)

If there was a button for favouring threads. This is the thread I would favourite. Creativity!:kitteh:
Hey, are videogames form of art? They can be...


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## Mr. Meepers (May 31, 2012)

Yeah, I agree with another poster that creativity is so much more than art. ... I think of creativity as "original" imagination ... thinking of things that no one has told you about ... I suppose how original/novel and how imaginative and/or abstract can come into question, but there are lots of types of creativity and not all creativity ever leaves the person. I also think that being open minded and willing to see new possibilities plays a big role in creativity, as it is not hard to think of new ideas, you just have to be willing to not restrain/restrict yourself to the conventional (perhaps that is one reason why kids seem to have a limitless imagination ).


An person who likes to jerry rig different items together to create a new object with a new function, a poet, a scientist creating a theory, a scientist figuring out a way to make an experiment to verify an idea that has not been verified before, someone trying to apply knowledge to a new problem .... Isn't that all creativity? ... Granted some of those maybe more "abstract" than others, but it all requires original imagination ... also some people may do lots of "original" things that don't require much imagination, while others will create few original pieces that require a lot of imagination (a lot of imagination but all added up over the course of a longer time) --- so who is more creative then? (personally I would go with the later as they put "imagination on their imaginations"  lol while the other may have the ability to be just as imaginative, but chooses to not have a connection between the imaginative thoughts)

For all I know this post I am writing has some creativity  (to be fair, I am just making this up as I go along and I type really slowly, so that gives me plenty of time to thing and attempt to remember things ... "remember things" clearly I am creative with my words XD) ... Now, I'm gonna go eat food before I make this comment have self awareness and allow it to try to take over all of PerC Muah hahaha  ^__^


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## Mizmar (Aug 12, 2009)

blueandviolet said:


> But I would also say that I do not as often seek out fine art, nor feel quite as moved, as I do by say music, theater, literature and film.


I'm equally moved by both musical and visual arts but in very different ways. With visual arts there is more of a sense of awe and wonder that is indistinguishable from that which I experience when I observe the beauty (or horrificness) of nature (the night sky, for example, or the sea). Music in contrast causes my skin to get all goosebumpy, like I'm suddenly awash in electrical bliss. 



perkele said:


> Hey, are videogames form of art? They can be...


I've always been impressed with the imagination of those who created such fantastical games as Super Mario Bros. and Sonic the Hedgehog.


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