# Model D (mk5)



## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

"Mirror neurons have been interpreted as the mechanism by which we simulate others in order to better understand them..." (Fi)

"Mirror neurons are proposed to be a basis for understanding the actions of others by internally imitating the actions using one's own motor control circuits."

"The mirror neuron system (MNS), comprising premotor cortex, inferior parietal lobe, and motor and somatosensory cortex, is engaged when one performs a motor action or views another person perform the same action, thus providing a potential neural mechanism by which we understand other's action goals."

Se is directly related to the premotor cortex and the parietal lobe.

Se and Fi are blocked together because they are essentially doing the same thing.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Tellus said:


> "Mirror neurons have been interpreted as the mechanism by which we simulate others in order to better understand them..." (Fi)
> 
> "Mirror neurons are proposed to be a basis for understanding the actions of others by internally imitating the actions using one's own motor control circuits."
> 
> ...


Define Se. Define Fi.


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

https://www.herrmann.com.au/what-is-whole-brain-thinking/

I think Herrmann Brain Dominance Instrument is oversimplified, but they have also concluded that a person can be task-oriented (see DISC) without being logical/analytical.


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

Si interprets the meaning of visual stimuli and establishes object recognition. Si also forms new memories and recalls memories.

Fe interprets the meaning of visual stimuli and establishes object recognition (only facial expressions, body language and tone of voice).

Se simulates an interaction between objects ... and knows an object's position in space (i.e. direct interaction between objects).

Fi simulates an interaction between subjects (i.e. people).


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

Fi is related to the orbitofrontal cortex and Fe is related to the cingulate cortex.


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

Fi also includes ventromedial prefrontal cortex.

"involved in the cognitive evaluation of morality"


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

Si and Fe are ultimately about pattern recognition. Both functions form new memories and recall memories. Fe focuses on facial expressions, body language and tone of voice.

Se and Fi perceive/simulate an interaction between a person (i.e. a subject) and objects/subjects. Both functions cause (and are caused by) emotions, but only Fi reflects upon emotional responses.


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

It is very likely that facial expressions etc cause emotions, so I think Fe also reflects upon emotional responses.


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## Cacaia (Feb 5, 2018)

Fascinating. As stated before on a different post, I wish I could be one of Dario Nardi's test subjects precisely because of this...further studies about how each personality uses their brain, which parts are stimulated, and when each type achieves flow....I could delve into this all day 😊


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

Si interprets the meaning of visual stimuli and establishes object/pattern recognition. It forms new memories and recall memories.

Se perceives/simulates an interaction between a person and objects/people.

Both functions cause emotions and are caused by emotions. Fe and Fi reflect upon those emotional responses. They combine perception (=sensation+cognition) and emotion.

Fe focuses on facial expressions, body language and tone of voice.


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

There is an alternative way of defining Se, Si, Fe and Fi.

Se/Si: a subject observes objects

Fe/Fi: a subject observes a subject who observes objects

"V.S. Ramachandran has speculated that mirror neurons may provide the neurological basis of human self-awareness."


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

There could be a connection between the functions and the basic emotions.



Se- maximize anger, minimize fear

Se+ minimize not anger, maximize not fear



Si+ maximize anticipation, minimize surprise

Si- minimize not anticipation, maximize not surprise (tradition, custom...)



Fi- maximize trust, minimize disgust

Fi+ minimize not trust (i.e. distrust), maximize not disgust



Fe+ maximize joy, minimize sadness

Fe- minimize not joy, maximize not sadness




IF this is accurate then I must change the model:


INTJ

Introvert

*Si+* Fe- // *Se+* Fi-

*Fi+* Se- // *Fe+* Si-


... which is similar to Model D mk4.


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

"Anger, when viewed as a protective response or instinct to a perceived threat, is considered as positive. The negative expression of this state is known as aggression. Acting on this misplaced state is rage due to possible potential errors in perception and judgment."

Anger is always caused by an obstacle (including a threat).

Fear is always caused by an "inverse obstacle" ... i.e. he/she (or it) wants to remove _you._


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

Intelligence is directly related to logical reasoning, but it is only somewhat related to creativity/imagination (or Intuition). So '+' = abductive/inductive reasoning could be inaccurate.


I will temporarily use these descriptions instead:


'+' = "abstract, imaginative, absentminded, impractical, absorbed in ideas" ... "open to change, experimental, liberal, analytical, critical, freethinking, flexibility"


'-' = "grounded, practical, prosaic, solution oriented, steady, conventional" ... "traditional, attached to familiar, conservative, respecting traditional ideas"










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'+' = many connections between the frontal lobe and the other lobes (?)

logical reasoning (including working memory) = similarities/differences between objects ... the prefrontal cortex (?)


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

This is also possible:

INTJ

Introvert

*Si+* Se- *Fi+* Fe- // *Se+* Si- *Fe+* Fi-



1. INTJ's Si+ and Se+ are strong functions, and Fe- and Fi- are weak functions.

This is based on MBTI, Socionics (duality etc.), observations (physics, mathematics, chess etc.) and symmetry.

2. Imagination/Intuition (or '+') is always dependent on Se, Si, Fe and Fi. So if '+' is strong, then all '+' functions are strong.

INTJ prefers Si with Intuition, i.e. Si+ is a strong function. Si without Intuition (Si-) must be a weak function.

3. INTJ _is _sensitive to criticism from ESFJ and ISFJ, so Fe- should be a Mental (i.e. conscious) function.

4. INTP's Fe+ is clearly a Mental function (watch superseniorsydney on Youtube).

5. INTJ's Se+ is a Vital function.

*Si+* Fe- *Se+* Fi- // ... This is not possible. If both Fe- and Fi- are Mental functions, then we cannot explain duality. Also, Si+ and Se+ don't complement each other.

6. Si+ and Se- are more conscious than Fi+ and Fe-.


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

*Si+* Se- *Fi+* Fe-
*Fe+* Fi- *Se+* Si-

Si+ _is_ assisted by Fe+ (like mk5). Why? Because Fe needs input from Si, but Si+ and Fe- do not process the same kind of information.

An INTJ usually focuses on objects (in his/her work), but there is always some awareness of himself/herself as a subject or other people who might be affected by his/her work. That awareness is Fe+ (and Fi-). This probably means that there are two rings or tracks: Si+, Se-, Fe+, Fi- and Fi+, Fe-, Se+, Si-.

I think Fe+ is more important in INTJ than INTP, but as a Vital function it is mostly an individual/private process. Therefore it is much more obvious in INTP.

If there are two tracks, then it is easy to understand why INTJ and ESFP are duals. Fe+/Fi- is the audience, so to speak.


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

Si interprets the meaning of visual stimuli and establishes object/pattern recognition. It forms new memories and recall memories.

Se perceives/simulates an interaction between a person and objects/people.

Fe = awareness that one specific pattern causes one specific emotional state (?)

Fi = awareness that one specific interaction causes one specific emotional state (?)


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

"The super-ego can be thought of as a type of conscience that punishes misbehavior with feelings of guilt. For example, for having extra-marital affairs. Taken in this sense, the super-ego is the precedent for the conceptualization of the inner critic..."

*Fi+ *Fe-
*Se+* Si-

Is this ILI's super-ego?


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

"In psychoanalysis, preconscious is the loci preceding consciousness. Thoughts are preconscious when they are unconscious at a particular moment, but are not repressed. Therefore, preconscious thoughts are available for recall and easily 'capable of becoming conscious'—a phrase attributed by Sigmund Freud to Joseph Breuer."

Yermak:

"Some socionists suppose that the functioning of the superblock of personal life is unconscious. It is incorrect. Founders of psychoanalysis differently considered the concept of the "unconscious". The term "preconscious" is appropriate to the content of processes, which take place in the superblock of personal life. In normal conditions, the preconscious processes function out of consciousness, automatically. But these processes can become conscious, if there is a need. In turn, functioning of the superblock of social life is obviously conscious."

Another way of looking at it is that one function is active (i.e. temporarily conscious) and all other functions are inactive (i.e. temporarily unconscious). So there are no Vital functions and information is never processed automatically.

But then why do INTJ and INFJ look so different? Because the functions are still blocked: Si+ (Fe+) vs. Fe+ (Si+). Fe+ is an auxiliary function which motivates the INTJ to work. INFJ, on the other hand, focuses on the motivation itself, so his/her auxiliary function provides the facts.

The question is whether INTJ can process Fe+ (Si+) or not.

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INTJ's Fe+ (Si+) is either rare or non-existent, otherwise we would not be able to differentiate between INTJ and INFJ.

*Fi+* Fe-
*Se+ *Si-

... or: *Fi+ (Se+)* Fe- (Si-)

This is what we see when INTJ focuses on people/motivation. He cannot (?) process Fe+ (Si+) and Fi- (Se-), so he must process Fe- (Si-) and Fi+ (Se+).


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

'ENTJs (or LIEs) are often "larger than life" in describing their projects or proposals. This ability may be expressed as salesmanship, story-telling facility or stand-up comedy. In combination with the natural propensity for filibuster, our hero can make it very difficult for the customer to decline.'

This is a good example of LIE's Fe+/Fi-.


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

This is the difference between Si-/Se+ and Si+/Se-.

Si- recognizes an object (or pattern).

Se+ tries to interact with an object (i.e. a detailed interaction ... surgery etc.) OR interacts with an object and wants to interact with it in a different way (i.e. Ne). This is about known objects, so the interaction is usually processed automatically.

Si+ tries to recognize an object OR recognizes an object and wants to know even more about the object.

Se- interacts with an object. The object is barely identified, so he/she just wants to interact with it in the usual way.


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

This is perhaps a better interpretation (Si-/Se+ vs. Si+/Se-). 

Si- known object/pattern ... he carefully interacts with an object (Se+), so he can memorize a pattern

Se+ known structure/interaction ... he knows the details (Si-), so he knows exactly how to interact with the object ... he associates the structure with another structure (Ne)

Si+ unknown object/pattern ... he tries to find a pattern ... he imagines a scenario (Ni) and simulates a dynamic interaction (Se-)

Se- unknown structure/interaction ... he builds something, but the structure is not clear yet ... it's a dynamic interaction (policeman, football player etc.), so he imagines the next move (Si+)


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

"In addition, users of type often forget that inferior or unconscious functions are inferior to consciousness* not in inferior in strength* in the psyche (Jung, 1971 p.450)."

If this is accurate then Mental/Vital and Strong/Weak contradict each other.

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My current view is that ILI prefers (or prioritizes) Si+ over Fe+, but they are equally conscious.

ILI, introvert:

*Si+ (Fe+) Se- (Fi-) // Fi+ (Se+) Fe- (Si-)*


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

Si-/Se+ ... a general pattern and a specific/detailed interaction

Si+/Se- ... a specific/detailed pattern and a general interaction


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

https://imgur.com/bGKiONz

You cannot associate the suitcase (i.e. the object/pattern) with a mug. Why? Because the suitcase includes a context (a traveler or a train etc). But you can associate the suitcase with a new/different context (Si+).

It is possible that Se+ (or Ne) does not associate between objects (or the structure of objects). Instead, it carefully examines the structure (rotates it etc) and Si- then recognizes a "new object".


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

Si-/Se+ ... the fundamental structure is changed, so the context (or object/pattern) is also changed ... pattern + change = new pattern (i.e. known pattern or previously non-existent pattern)

"What's the only difference between a vacuum and a Harley? Where the dirt bag sits." ... the object and the context have changed, i.e. dirtbag now describes a dirty person (with a different context)



Si+/Se- ... the object is moved to a new/different context, which is added to the object (and gives it a deeper meaning) ... pattern + pattern = different pattern

Ni/Si+ you visualize a big parachute on top of a Boeing 737 ... the objects/patterns have not changed, but there is an additional pattern

Se- assembles a product ... every part of the product is an object/pattern ... pattern + pattern + pattern + pattern etc. = different pattern (Si+)


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Si+ combines known objects (or patterns) and creates a different object (or a new/different context), so Se- cannot change the fundamental structure.

Se- can saw a plank in half since the fundamental structure is the same.



Se+ changes the fundamental structure (or shape), so Si- must provide known/actual objects.

Se+ cannot change the structure of an unclear/unfinished object.



SLI / ISTJ (or ISTp) _is_ an "Ne user" (when Si- leads).


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

Si-/Se+ ... the object/pattern is static, the fundamental structure is dynamic

Si- zooms in on an object/pattern ... Se+ moves geons (or other 3D shapes) and changes the fundamental structure ... engineering



Si+/Se- ... the object/pattern is dynamic, the fundamental structure is static

one object/pattern always moves towards another pattern/context ... nuts and bolts etc --> machine ... or this particle --> these particles?


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

Ni Te Fi Se etc (Grant) is not possible. Why? Because you need a starting point (i.e. a "scene"), so Ni is always preceded by a memory (Si).

Si: "Episodic memory is defined as the ability to recall and mentally reexperience specific episodes from one's personal past"

Ni: "Episodic future thinking refers to the capacity to imagine or simulate experiences that might occur in one's personal future."


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

An object is always related to other objects (i.e. it must be placed somewhere). If it is a useful relation/pattern, then you want to memorize it.

There are two questions (Si and Se): What objects are included in the pattern? (What is the pattern?) and Where is the object located (in relation to the other objects)?

If you are unsure about the pattern or find it useless, then you can change it by using Intuition/PFC (or trial-and-error). You can add a new object or a new context (Ni/Si+), and you can change the structure/interaction (stretch it, rotate it etc ... Ne/Se+).


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5382157/

The medial temporal lobe (MTL) includes the hippocampus, amygdala and parahippocampal regions, and is crucial for episodic and spatial memory. MTL memory function consists of distinct processes such as encoding, consolidation and retrieval. Encoding is the process by which perceived information is transformed into a memory trace. After encoding, memory traces are stabilized by consolidation. Memory retrieval (recall) refers to the process by which memory traces are reactivated to access information previously encoded and stored in the brain. Although underlying neural mechanisms supporting these distinct functional stages remain largely unknown, recent studies have indicated that distinct oscillatory dynamics, specific neuron types, synaptic plasticity and neuromodulation, play a central role. The theta rhythm is believed to be crucial in the encoding and retrieval of memories. Experimental and computational studies indicate that precise timing of principal cell firing in the hippocampus, relative to the theta rhythm, underlies encoding and retrieval processes. On the other hand, sharp-wave ripples have been implicated in the consolidation through the “replay” of memories in compressed time scales.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occipital_lobe

The first functional area is the primary visual cortex. It contains a low-level description of the local orientation, spatial-frequency and color properties within small receptive fields. Primary visual cortex projects to the occipital areas of the ventral stream (visual area V2 and visual area V4), and the occipital areas of the dorsal stream—visual area V3, visual area MT (V5), and the dorsomedial area (DM).

The ventral stream is known for the processing the "what" in vision, while the dorsal stream handles the "where/how." This is because the ventral stream provides important information for the identification of stimuli that are stored in memory. With this information in memory, the dorsal stream is able to focus on motor actions in response to the outside stimuli.



https://www.jneurosci.org/content/32/24/8107

The idea of a division between a dorsal and a ventral visual stream is one of the most basic principles of visual processing in the brain (Milner and Goodale, 1995). The ventral stream originates in primary visual cortex and extends along the ventral surface into the temporal cortex; the dorsal stream also arises in primary visual cortex, but continues along the dorsal surface into parietal cortex. The ventral stream (or “vision-for-perception” pathway) is believed to mainly subserve recognition and discrimination of visual shapes and objects, whereas the dorsal stream (or “vision-for-action” pathway) has been primarily associated with visually guided reaching and grasping based on the moment-to-moment analysis of the spatial location, shape, and orientation of objects. It has been proposed, however, that the dorsal stream also processes tools as a category, so that manipulable objects would be processed by those brain regions that are important for the execution of actions. However, because dorsal and ventral visual regions are heavily interconnected, it is difficult to tell in healthy subjects whether information is processed along the dorsal stream only, or whether it is fed to parietal cortex via ventral visual regions.








Spontaneous (real-time) brain activity using tNLM filtering of fMRI data


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

Why are there mental and vital functions? Because two functions must process information simultaneously. You cannot observe structural differences (Se: longer, higher, fewer...) without being somewhat aware of the object (Si).


ILI

Si+ (Fe+) // Se+ (Fi+) ... strong (ego)

Se- (Fi-) // Si- (Fe-) ... weak
________________

Fi+ (Se+) // Fe+ (Si+) ... strong (super-ego)

Fe- (Si-) // Fi- (Se-) ... weak


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

Here's a visualization of the functions.


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

"Why are there mental and vital functions? Because two functions must process information simultaneously."

Is this correct? hmm...


ILI

Si+ (Fe+) // Se+ (Fi+) ... strong (ego)

Se- (Fi-) // Si- (Fe-) ... weak
________________

Fi+ (Se+) // Fe+ (Si+) ... strong (super-ego)

Fe- (Si-) // Fi- (Se-) ... weak


OR


ILI

Si+ (Se-) // Fe+ (Fi-) ... strong (ego)

Se- (Si+) // Fi- (Fe+) ... weak
_________________

Fi+ (Fe-) // Se+ (Si-) ... strong (super-ego)

Fe- (Fi+) // Si- (Se+) ... weak


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

Tellus said:


> There could be a connection between the functions and the basic emotions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here's an example:

Se+ ... math --> engineering --> a bridge --> no need to climb --> he or she avoids dangerous situations

I think robots are the ultimate expression of Se+.


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

_Si interprets the meaning of visual stimuli and establishes object/pattern recognition. It forms new memories and recall memories.
_
_Se perceives/simulates an interaction between a person and objects/people.
_
_Fe = awareness that one specific pattern causes one specific emotional state (?)
_
_Fi = awareness that one specific interaction causes one specific emotional state (?)_


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I think Se and Si are accurately defined, but Fe and Fi have to be modified.

We interact with objects and we identify objects (Se and Si), and we interact with subjects and we identify subjects (Fi and Fe). But what does the latter mean? We can move an object but we (usually) cannot move another person. Instead, Fi and Fe deal with social relationships and _cooperation_. We need other people to hunt, to farm, for protection etc. That is why Fi is directly related to mirror neurons. Fi imitates another person, which is essential for cooperation, and builds a (new) relationship. Fe identifies a relationship via facial expressions, tone of voice and body language.


"The original role of emotions was to motivate adaptive behaviors that in the past would have contributed to the passing on of genes through survival, reproduction, and kin selection."

Joy informs a person that he/she is on the right track: _Keep identifying a useful relationship._


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## overkiller123 (Mar 8, 2020)

Too hard.


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterior_cingulate_cortex

"The ACC area in the brain is associated with many functions that are correlated with conscious experience. Greater ACC activation levels were present in more emotionally aware female participants when shown short 'emotional' video clips. Better emotional awareness is associated with improved recognition of emotional cues or targets, which is reflected by ACC activation."

Fe is definitely related to the cingulate cortex.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron

"Stephanie Preston and Frans de Waal, Jean Decety, and Vittorio Gallese and Christian Keysers have independently argued that the mirror neuron system is involved in empathy." (mainly Fi+)

"David Freedberg and Vittorio Gallese have also put forward the idea that this function of the mirror neuron system is crucial for aesthetic experiences." (mainly Fi- ... ESI: art, fashion etc)


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

Here's a clarification on Te and Ti. Te is about a) logical reasoning and b) facts, technology, effectiveness etc. Ti is about a) logical reasoning and b) size, direction, angle, quantity etc.

b) in Te is included in Si and b) in Ti is included in Se.

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However, FPN includes the frontal lobe and the parietal lobe. So when Se is activated, logical reasoning is activated as well. (IQ measures how efficiently a person uses logical reasoning).

Hence, logical reasoning (i.e. comparing objects/patterns and extracting information) is also included in Se and Si.

It is a process: sensation --> perception --> cognition ... OR ... sensation --> cognition --> perception

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Intelligence/IQ is a part of our personality but it is not a part of our personality type.


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-cognition-and-perception

"Perception is a process: first comes sensation, then comes cognition; perception is sensing influenced by cognition. For example, if someone calls you a name:

1. you hear it, then

2. you think about it (whether quickly or not), then

3. what you were thinking affects how you perceive what was said."

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This means that Thinking and Sensing cannot be two separate functions.


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

It is possible that the functions correspond to (large-scale) brain networks.

The motivation network, Fe/Fi (?):


View attachment 840797


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Si + F = Fe (?)

Se + F = Fi (?)

Nardi's brain maps do not support this, though. They look more like Se -- Si -- Fe -- Fi, so Se types show the least empathy (Fi).


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