# Writer's Corner (Inspiration and Discussion for Writers-- all types welcome)



## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Hello, fellow writers!
I want this to be a place for us to discus our writing process, share writer's tips, and maybe do some inspiration kind of exercise things like "writer's prompts" and other games to get us limbered up for writing our masterwork! 

Every few days there will be:
#1 A writer's discussion topic. There could possibly be a link to a blog, video, or podcast., but doesn't have to be. 
#2. A writer's prompt. These are meant to be spring-boards for a short paragraph or short story or poem, something to get you loosened up for writing those masterworks. 

The more we all post and share ideas with each other the better.


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## Dissenter (Jul 31, 2017)

You be careful, Alesha, or you're going to cure me of my writer's block. It has been keeping me from going back to my novel for months now.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Dissenter said:


> You be careful, Alesha, or you're going to cure me of my writer's block. It has been keeping me from going back to my novel for months now.


Cure yours and mine! We will find an antidote! Any ideas of what you want from a writer's corner? We can make it what we want. Please feel free to message any fellow writers about this. Summon them here!


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## Dissenter (Jul 31, 2017)

Alesha said:


> Cure yours and mine! We will find an antidote! Any ideas of what you want from a writer's corner? We can make it what we want. Please feel free to message any fellow writers about this. Summon them here!


INFJ writers are very stingy with their work. I only know of @odinthor from our forum.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

@angelcat @IssaVibe @odinthor @PurpleKitti Come and join in-- if this is your writer's corner, what do you want to see? Also, bring in other writers that you know of...


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## raschel (Apr 8, 2014)

What about a separate spot for poems? A writer's prompt etc for poets.

Is there anyone who is learning poetry from scratch? I am doing that with a book, lesson by lesson. 
It is great if we reallylearn something. 

Maybe we can even publish them on a website.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

raschel said:


> What about a separate spot for poems? A writer's prompt etc for poets.
> 
> Is there anyone who is learning poetry from scratch? I am doing that with a book, lesson by lesson.
> It is great if we reallylearn something.
> ...


Yes, I don't see why not. I used to use a website to get my poetry brain going... lets see if I can find the link....

This isn't that one I used to use. The one I liked had words that looked like poetry magnets. 
But maybe it's helpful...https://www.robertpeake.com/prompts


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## raschel (Apr 8, 2014)

Alesha said:


> Yes, I don't see why not. I used to use a website to get my poetry brain going... lets see if I can find the link....
> 
> This isn't that one I used to use. The one I liked had words that looked like poetry magnets.
> But maybe it's helpful...https://www.robertpeake.com/prompts


That is neat! When I was a child my teacher would give my friend and I extra assignments. She'd give us a large picture and we'd write about it. I think I used to do stories...

Is this what you're looking for? BBC - Arts - Poetry
I only started to find these 'games' online recently. :courage:


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Okay, @raschel lets think this one out. I'm thinking of every few days putting up 3 things. 
#1 a link to a writing topic video or a writing topic podcast or blog with a topic for us to discuss. 
#2 Posting a (prose) writing prompt
#3. Posting a poem writing prompt. 
In some ways this is tough to have on the NF forum, usually people just got to their 4 tyoes... but I want as much diversity as possible. That way we get more writing stimulation. 
What do you think?


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## raschel (Apr 8, 2014)

@Alesha

Btw, the BBC game does not work for me as I use my phone... but wish i could-- the page looks awesome..

Can I see an example of a video topic?

I realize you have the word discussion in the thread title, not exactly sure what that would entail. Maybe critique like a film..
But anyway I was thinking of a place where we all just learn together and get down to work and produce some things. 
We would share what we write or works we really like, according to whatever lesson or theme we are working on at that time.

The person who picks the theme could change each week. 
It is nice to do it for fun, something silly. Short, exercises, games...
or serious I suppose =)
almost for children...
(In fact this BBC poetry kit is a real physical thing! It's what I was searchingfor before I got to the online version. I was specifically checking out the French magnetic poetry kit.)


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

I think these are great ideas @raschel. Yes, I would love for help with the topics, discussion, prompts. Since this thread is kind of continuous and it's got to be something where people just jump in... I think it's got to be just a continuous "writer's discussion" and "prompts". Very fluid, since there can't be any sub-subjects or whatever... But we will all get to know each other and get to encourage each other and bounce ideas off of each other... or try lines out...get critique on things that are tough or if we're stuck...


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

*First topic: What makes a good first paragraph... a good first chapter? * 
Look here for a few ideas if you would like: Writing Excuses Episode 4: Beginnings | Writing Excuses

*First writing prompt: "He/she looked at his/her face in the mirror...." * Use this to describe a character... just a writer's exercise.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

*First topic: What makes a good first paragraph... a good first chapter? *

I do think it's like the first chapter is the promise of what the whole book is going to entail. Like you get to know WHO you're dealing with, introducing characters. Then you should get a sense of what we're dealing with like... is there political intregue? war? magic? love? If so, all of that needs to have a part in that first chapter. 
I heard about a book getting accepted based on the author's first chapter and then rejected later. The first chapter was about a character never seen again, and the publishers were like, "Hey we wanted that book, the funny one about a goofy boy. Not the one about the tough mountain man" 
What do you think?


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## Asmodaeus (Feb 15, 2015)

This turned out to be truly inspirational, even though I’m not a poet in any way, shape or from.


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## Windblownhair (Aug 12, 2013)

Currently in the throes of Nanowrimo. Fun but exhausting. Looking forward to tackling something shorter come December. Love all the stuff you’re posting! Very inspirational.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Windblownhair said:


> Currently in the throes of Nanowrimo. Fun but exhausting. Looking forward to tackling something shorter come December. Love all the stuff you’re posting! Very inspirational.


Are you doing the national novel month? What's your word count at? Has it been a good experience for you?


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## Windblownhair (Aug 12, 2013)

Alesha said:


> Are you doing the national novel month? What's your word count at? Has it been a good experience for you?


I am! I’m currently at 45k, and par is 40k, so I’m a little ahead. This generally happens to me towards the end. I stick to the word count for most of the month and at the end I get excited and pull ahead.

I adore Nanowrimo. It’s been a game changer for me. I did my first one November 2015, and I’ve done every Nanowrimo and Camp Nanowrimo since then. 

For me, the big difference was learning to stop editing and rewriting my stories into oblivion. I would spend an hour on a paragraph, or rewrite the same scene over and over, and in general make very slow progress in the search for perfection. The insane daily word count for Nanowrimo didn’t allow for that kind of writing...the entire first draft was down before I even thought about editing or rewriting. Writing was exhilarating. I learned to push through the parts I usually skipped, to keep going at the point I liked abandoning stories, and just to write more and finish more. I know it isn’t the process for everyone, but for me it helped me find the groove I needed to become a finisher.


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## Fennel (Jan 11, 2017)

The crazy thing is that the first paragraph/ chapter isn't necessarily the first thing you write.

I haven't written any story/ poem in a long while, but I edit for my writer friend. We'd finished working on his latest short story when he came up with a cool first paragraph. A quick background about the story because it's a sci-fi. The magazine editor was so impressed, she had it published immediately, both in the magazine and a spreadsheet.

The funny part is, it was already published before I could see the first part, and there were some grammatical errors in it. 


* *




Shameless self-promotion of sorts.
https://businessmirror.com.ph/cyns-dream


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

I can definitely see the merits of going forward with writing and then going back and adding to the beginning.


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

I'm a poet, but I really really need help from story writers. I notice creative writers are naturally either inclined to write poetry, or stories, but will feel the other is their Achille's heal. I've honed my poetic skill since I was a child, yet I have so many ideas for stories, I feel I could do so much with stories and find ways to add my love of poetry into it to make it even more meaningful to me

I have a hard time knowing how to start. I judge myself too harshly. I think that's a trait every artist has. It's just that with poetry, I understand the core of it already. If my poetry is bad, I know why and how to change it. If I'm freewriting or writing drafts and the writing is bad, it's ok because I know where I'm going with it. But I'm 24 just now trying to start writing stories and it's like I have to start from the perspective of an elementary kid

I realize that stressing myself out will only prevent me from being able to write at all. We can't let stress get us down. We have to just sit down and write. But these ideas I have, I have no idea where to start...I have concepts for stories, vignettes, characters, themes, and I feel like I could one day be good at writing stories, but how does one start?

So I'm asking you story writers, how do you personally start writing a story? When you have that concept in mind, where do you go from there? What exercises help inspire you further?

maybe I'm hurting myself by looking at them as so vastly different. Though the way I see it, story is the drawing, poetry is the whitespace. I have to find a way to enter into story writing in a way that stirs my passion for poetry at the same time


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## Windblownhair (Aug 12, 2013)

Alesha said:


> New post: What writers do you try to emulate? Feel free to discuss poets, novelists or non-fiction writers. Feel free to bring quotes to the board. Why? What do you get out of it?


I don’t try to emulate anyone. Which is not to say that I don’t feel like certain authors haven’t influenced my work... in the words of Richard Peck, “We write by the light of every story we have ever read.” But I feel like it’s taken time and trial-and-error to develop my own style, and so I shy away from knowingly borrowing from anyone else. 

For me, the most memorable authors were those whose thought processes I understood and identified with. There’s something exhilarating about realizing someone else out there thinks similarly to you.

The list of authors I’ve felt that kinship with includes: Patricia C. Wrede, Neil Gaiman(more philosophically than stylistically), Max Tegmark, Jane Austen, James Thurber, M. Night Shyamalan, Robin McKinley, Malcolm Gladwell, and Chandler Burr.


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

Alesha said:


> New post: What writers do you try to emulate? Feel free to discuss poets, novelists or non-fiction writers. Feel free to bring quotes to the board. Why? What do you get out of it?


I don't think I have the talent or patience to emulate any author - even if I tried. I do notice that when writing I tend to write about characters first before starting the story ( funny thing is most of the character I created are not in my story ) anyhow- this will sound silly, I notice my writing style is kinda similar to Rl Stine ( I wish I could say Neil Gaimon or Alexandre Dumas) 

In terms of play writing - I believe I have my own style- but I can relate it to pseudo science humor or romance comedy - 
Come to think of it - stories I write and made up are nothing like books or novel I'm intrigued by ..how about you ? 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

NEW TOPIC:
When should you use 3rd person and when should you use 1st person? What is your experience with writing in each? What do you prefer to read, books in 1st person or 3rd?


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

Alesha said:


> NEW TOPIC:
> When should you use 3rd person and when should you use 1st person? What is your experience with writing in each? What do you prefer to read, books in 1st person or 3rd?


When writing I'm always using first person- never thought of it before 

In terms of reading- either or, I think I prefer 1st person because I enjoy seeing what's going through in their mind- also it's easier for me to disappear into the character's mind
What about you? 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## 68097 (Nov 20, 2013)

> When should you use 3rd person and when should you use 1st person? What is your experience with writing in each? What do you prefer to read, books in 1st person or 3rd?


There's more than that on the offer.

There's 1st person.
There's 3rd person limited, which is like Harry Potter, where you get all his thoughts but it's not from an "I" perspective.
There's 3rd person expanded, which means you are with / inside the head of whomever is before you on the page, for a limited time.
There's 3rd person, God complex, which means you can read everyone's mind, all the time.

Anyway...

I've written in all of them. I usually pick third person but limited perspective; I find internal thoughts in fiction difficult and/or tedious to write, so I choose to express most of their motives through their actions, irregardless of the perspective.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

And the few (very) short-story pieces I've read in 2nd person were interesting too. 3rd person omniscient. 
So here's what I've heard from a few writers. I've heard if you write in 1st person that you very often write yourself into a corner if there are pieces of the plot that the main character doesn't know about and you want to show-- that's how it was explained to me. To write in 1st person you have to almost have a reason to do so, like that their thoguhts are important to the plot or message. 

But I really love reading books in first-person. If it's in 3rd person I like it if they give me lots of thoughts/feelings-- unless it serves a purpose not to. I do like books like Faulkner's _As I Lay Dying_ where you get 3rd person expanded very clearly. Tolstoy had an interesting style with this as well, with his third person expanded. You got a sense of each distinct person, not just an array of thoughts from members of a group which I don't like as well. Maybe thats because of my Fi?


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## Fennel (Jan 11, 2017)

With stories, I don't consciously try to emulate anyone. I prefer to experiment with short pieces though. A story of mine is in letter format. One of my unfinished works is a diary.

With poetry, it is most often songwriters that I like that I try to emulate, not the classic poets.



Alesha said:


> NEW TOPIC:
> When should you use 3rd person and when should you use 1st person? What is your experience with writing in each? What do you prefer to read, books in 1st person or 3rd?


I'm more used to and comfortable reading 3rd person stories. But I find myself writing in first person, haha. Probably because of my journals and message-email writing. I edited a short story in the 2nd person, that was a bit challenging.

For poetry, whatever works. More auditory than visual. More internal than anything.

Question. Do you always use past tense in your writing? When do you use present tense?


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## 68097 (Nov 20, 2013)

> Question. Do you always use past tense in your writing? When do you use present tense?


I used to write primarily in past tense, but I started writing in present tense a couple of years ago. I love it. It makes for such a cleaner reading experience for me -- it also uses fewer words, and you cannot be certain the narrator will make to the end. So, I use it on everything now.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

@angelcat, that would make for a unique reading experience. I’ve only read a few short pieces in present tense and it seemed tricky and it was very memorable! I remember I think Wuthering Heights used past and present tense, I think. It’s hard to even imagine writing whole book in it. Neat,


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)




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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)




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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

I'm not really into Stephen King books, except for this book "On Writing" "Stay ahead of the doubt," he says. I love this about time acting like a sieve where the good ideas are big and stay in the sieve and the bad ideas fall through the cracks..

What do you guys think? How do you get an idea that you really want to write?


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## raschel (Apr 8, 2014)

I quite liked hearing Stephen King, thanks a lot =) i never thought to search him on writing
Interesting thing to say... character versus plot. 
Why did the audience laugh when he said plot? Hmm...

I think I am or have always been on that search. On that idea 
And I think King had given the answer...
Basically I write or draw, and I sort of leave it and start another. I have an idea and then I start another. 
But I realize there are ideas that do repeat themselves. I just hadn't thought of them really connecting together 

I also have ideas that I thought were not helpful but could probably be turned around. 

I personally need a physical item. A notebook or something. So I don't forget the idea no matter how important it is. 

What is this 'stay ahead of the doubt?'

I liked Gaiman on trends too. Do you believe it? I remember being surprised when a lot of fairytale and fantasy related dramas were showing up as TV series. I thought it came out of the blue actually.


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## Micky1994 (Mar 7, 2017)

Finally, i have found you guys! It's great that writers can chat on here. I do like to write myself. Mainly short stories, but love writing prose poems aswell. Have any of you guys written any prose poems?


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## 7rr7s (Jun 6, 2011)

Omg I love this thread!!! I'll add some stuff in a little bit. .


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## 7rr7s (Jun 6, 2011)

Alesha said:


> *First topic: What makes a good first paragraph... a good first chapter? *
> Look here for a few ideas if you would like: Writing Excuses Episode 4: Beginnings | Writing Excuses
> 
> *First writing prompt: "He/she looked at his/her face in the mirror...." * Use this to describe a character... just a writer's exercise.


Something that's going to draw you in and set the tone for the rest of the work. However, I hate when it sounds like they made it interesting just because their MFA instructor told them they need to have a bold interesting opening line. I don't really know how to explain it, but you know it when you read it and can tell when it feels forced. What's more important that the opening line is the opening paragraphs. It's like in chess, or in boxing, how you open, how you start the fight sets the tone for the rest of it. You gotta take some risks sure, but not just for the sake of taking risks and making it bold. I think good diction plays a big role in it. 

Something I've noticed is sometimes, you can try cutting the first few opening lines. Do that and see if the paragraph still works. Sometimes it's better, and you realize it actually starts halfway through the paragraph. 

"It was cool and windy on the porch. The stars had come out and I was the only one still up. Then I heard a howl that sent a chill through my bones and I was terrified." 

VS. 

"I heard a howl that sent a chill through my bones and I was terrified." 

Both can work, but the second one seems like a stronger opening line. 


Writing prompt: 

His face looked like a Picasso painting in the mirror, and he saw the stubble on his face, the black hair, an eye, reflected back to him in shards of broken glass that still hung to the wood. There were still cuts on his knuckles from where he had punched it the other night, and his head pulsed. He was still drunk. And he was still angry. 




Vaka said:


> I'm a poet, but I really really need help from story writers. I notice creative writers are naturally either inclined to write poetry, or stories, but will feel the other is their Achille's heal. I've honed my poetic skill since I was a child, yet I have so many ideas for stories, I feel I could do so much with stories and find ways to add my love of poetry into it to make it even more meaningful to me
> 
> I have a hard time knowing how to start. I judge myself too harshly. I think that's a trait every artist has. It's just that with poetry, I understand the core of it already. If my poetry is bad, I know why and how to change it. If I'm freewriting or writing drafts and the writing is bad, it's ok because I know where I'm going with it. But I'm 24 just now trying to start writing stories and it's like I have to start from the perspective of an elementary kid
> 
> ...


I focus only on short stories, though I do have a very early draft of a novel, and a nonfiction book in the very early stages. I've heard that short story writers should write poetry alongside short stories though, so I want to develop that more since it's way more challenging than a short story or a novel. 

As for starting a story, I start with a theme or some sort of meaning. I figure out what I want the story to say, and I think of either the ending or the most powerful emotional scene. I have a solid vision of what I want it to be, and I write that. Then I focus on characters, plot, point of view, and setting. Tone is something I'm always thinking of too, since tone really ties the whole thing together. Then I kind of just write. 



Sei35 said:


> Poetry and flash fiction are my thing, as they are quite similar. I hadn't any creative writing for years though. It was around the time I seriously considered my real world situation (went to school, thought about my career, lovelife, etc.).
> 
> About your previous post, I find that poetry is about one subject/ feeling/ image while a story is about a series of events. With longer stories, plot matters a lot to me, but shorter works work much like poetry. Seemingly unrelated question, but what is your learning style? I find that mine is verbal and auditory. I like to hear the words in my head. When I think of a story, it's usually plain dialogue. I suck at descriptions though. That stopped me from becoming a serious story writer. I think a visual person would be great with descriptions of settings and people. Kinesthetic learners would do action very well. The best writings would have a nice mix of all styles, unless they're going for something extreme.
> 
> ...


I focus on feelings, tone, and character the most. I'm pretty good with descriptions, but tend to struggle with dialogue and plot. I think all aspects of a story need to be there to support them, though. You can have everything going write, but if it has shit dialogue it's going to be a bad story. Or you can have it all together, but the plot is weak, or maybe it's the characters, or whatever. All things need to be working together alongside each other. 



angelcat said:


> I find an idea (a climax, a character, an arc, a symbolic theme) and just... sit down and start writing. The beginning is usually the hardest since I'm shuffling a lot of potential ideas in my mind and trying to find a direction; that's why my books usually have four drafts -- the first one is a total mess, but has the bones of a good novel; the second is more streamlined but still founders; the third I've figured out the entire arc and written each chapter to be more concise; and the fourth focuses on the editing aspect / tightening / bringing the word count to a reasonable size and ensuring characters are well-developed.
> 
> When I was young, I used to take a scene from a movie and practice by writing it; recounting the dialogue, weaving actions around it, so it wasn't a page of description or dialogue. Figuring out how to put a different slant on it, or describe the sunlight arcing through the window. It was good practice for sensory description and also helped me figure out the rhythm of dialogue.
> 
> Mostly tho, you just have to... do it. Like, sit down, and write. And write more, even when inspiration isn't there.


Yeah, half the battle is jsut sitting down and writing. That's kind of why I like contests or deadlines. I'm a very competitive person and it kind of puts a fire under my ass to excell and make good work. 



Alesha said:


> *Today's thought: * What do you guys think makes a good opening for a book? Something that pulls you in?
> I think the following video (next post) is a bit cut-throat and long, but it helped me form my opinion and ends with a great point on growth mind-set. Basically that idea that you can figure out your writing weaknesses and learn to make them strengths.
> He says the way to tell a good book is if there is good conflict development. Do you agree or disagree? When you're at a library what is it on that first page that makes you take it home rather than put it back on the shelf?
> 
> ...


I'll look at the video later, but I kind of answered that above. Good diction, good use of sentences and interesting descriptions. Not necessarily a bunch of tension and a bold hook just for the sake of having one, and especially not right away, although I can see how that's more of a thing in genre than in literary.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

@Blue Christmas I hope you post a ton. I like even that little example of writing that you gave us. @Sei35 maybe writing is what you truly need to do. Maybe you need to quit your day job eventually and write. What about plays or screen writing if dialogue is the thing that draws you? That sounds awesome.


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## 7rr7s (Jun 6, 2011)

Sei35 said:


> It would be fun to write a story around characters with different typology. I only know my own personality though, haha! Like, what would happen if PersonalityCafe were a real cafe with all sorts of people in it?
> 
> One of the story ideas I'm playing around with now is ISIS: the Inter-Scholastic Introvert Society. It's a group of idealistic introvert friends who decided to create their own club because they don't have friends in their own schools. They're not a legit club, and most are shy so it's a lot of struggle... I just don't know how to make a plot out of that image in my head.


I'd change the name of that if I were you, otherwise people will think you're writing about terrorists. As for the story, You could have one event and tell it from the POV of two or more characters, but making it completely different. Or have something exertnal happen that forces them to interact, like the building gets shut down due to an emergency or something, and they are forced to open up and talk to one another, or help each other out in some way. 



Alesha said:


> Also... another topic. Who would you rate as the best poets ever in the English language? My old professor used to say that the concensus is the top 4: Do you agree? But who do you like? Any other poets in other languages that you would rank around the same?
> 
> William Blake
> William Shakespeare
> ...


Not all are in English, but my favorites are Byron, Neruda, Rimbaud, and Whitman. 



Alesha said:


> NEW TOPIC:
> When should you use 3rd person and when should you use 1st person? What is your experience with writing in each? What do you prefer to read, books in 1st person or 3rd?


1st person demands a unique perspective and voice. It's also pretty personal. Of the 12 stories I'm working on for my collection, only three are in first person, and one is in kind of a mix between 2nd and 3rd person. I find 1st person lends better to more genre stuff, although that's not to say it can't be done well in literary stuff. _The Adventures Of Huckleberry Finn, Moby Dick, The Great Gatsby,_ and _Lolita_ are all phenomenal examples of 1st person done well. But I think what makes them well is the unique voice. Huck Finn, this young American kid, or Ishmael the lone survivor telling the tale, or Humbert Humbert confessing his wicked ways. Nick Carraway is a little different in that he's an unreliable narrator, which is also something that helps make 1st person work sometimes. I guess you could also argue Humbert is too. 

Anyways, I find writing in 3rd person easier. I think I prefer reading 3rd person though. I feel like since Carver used 1st person alot, and he's taught widely in MFAs and writing programs, people feel like they need to write in some interesting 1st person. And then, like what I said above about making them have a unique voice, they just make these unnecessarily quirky characters that sound like they made them quirky just to make them quirky. I don't know, I think if it's done in a realistic way that's well written, 1st person can work. You can also get a deeper level of intimacy with the character, reading their thoughts, or even their stream of consciousness stuff. That being said, Henry Miller is one of my favorite authors, and his stuff is 1st person. 



angelcat said:


> There's more than that on the offer.
> 
> There's 1st person.
> There's 3rd person limited, which is like Harry Potter, where you get all his thoughts but it's not from an "I" perspective.
> ...


Yeah the action thing can be tough. I think you have to know what you're doing, and write it more like a screen play or a play. Otherwise it can get boring real fast. And even then, some people still don't get Hemingway, or Carter for that matter because they don't really understand what they're doing by just showing actions. I don't know, it's a hard line to balance. 



Alesha said:


> And the few (very) short-story pieces I've read in 2nd person were interesting too. 3rd person omniscient.
> So here's what I've heard from a few writers. I've heard if you write in 1st person that you very often write yourself into a corner if there are pieces of the plot that the main character doesn't know about and you want to show-- that's how it was explained to me. To write in 1st person you have to almost have a reason to do so, like that their thoguhts are important to the plot or message.
> 
> But I really love reading books in first-person. If it's in 3rd person I like it if they give me lots of thoughts/feelings-- unless it serves a purpose not to. I do like books like Faulkner's _As I Lay Dying_ where you get 3rd person expanded very clearly. Tolstoy had an interesting style with this as well, with his third person expanded. You got a sense of each distinct person, not just an array of thoughts from members of a group which I don't like as well. Maybe thats because of my Fi?


There's other ways you can do it too, like switching POV at certain times to get into a character's head, or heighten some sort of scene in the story. Although you have to really know what you're doing otherwise it will just come off like you forgot what POV you were writing in. 



Sei35 said:


> With stories, I don't consciously try to emulate anyone. I prefer to experiment with short pieces though. A story of mine is in letter format. One of my unfinished works is a diary.
> 
> With poetry, it is most often songwriters that I like that I try to emulate, not the classic poets.
> 
> ...


I ususally use past and present and switch back and forth. 

Story 1: Present.
Story 2: Present, with flashbacks.
Story 3: Present, with flashbacks. 
Story 4: Past, ending in present. 
Story 5, Present, with flashbacks. 
Story 6: Past. 
Story 7: Present, with flashbacks.
Story 8: Present with flashbacks. 
Story 9: Present. 
Story 10: Present. 
Story 11: Present, with flashbacks.
Story 12: Present. 

Hmmm. I guess I do use present alot, and flashbacks. 



angelcat said:


> I used to write primarily in past tense, but I started writing in present tense a couple of years ago. I love it. It makes for such a cleaner reading experience for me -- it also uses fewer words, and you cannot be certain the narrator will make to the end. So, I use it on everything now.


I feel like you always know the first person makes it out, otherwise how are they telling the story? I still think it works better for genre though. What works good is switching between present and past, retelling it, then bringing the events to the present shortly before the main climax.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

@Blue Christmas There's also kind of a companion thread to this one. it's the "Writer's Prompts" thread. Also, someone started an empathy game, but it's actually like writing prompts: 

http://personalitycafe.com/nfs-temp...76578-writer-s-challenge-writer-s-prompt.html

http://personalitycafe.com/nfs-temperament-forum-dreamers/1185457-empathy-game.html

The poetry thread in the INFJ forum is frequented fairly often if you're looking to get more into poetry.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

*New topic: Do you like description? How much is too much? How much is too little?*
Bring out examples if you can think of them.


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## Windblownhair (Aug 12, 2013)

Links to poetry threads and prose threads:
 http://personalitycafe.com/infj-forum-protectors/76387-infj-poetry-thread.html
 http://personalitycafe.com/infj-forum-protectors/1060842-infj-prose-corner.html

******

I’m not huge on description. I like description that is either plot important, or that contributes something specific to the vibe. I’d rather the author err on the side of scarcity. I enjoy filling in the blanks in my own mind.

Description from description’s sake drives me nuts. It’s the sort of thing I skim when I’m reading. 

Example of too much: L.M. Montgomery 
Example of just enough: Ernest Hemingway
I’m having a hard time thinking of an example of too little!


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## Fennel (Jan 11, 2017)

@*Blue Christmas* thanks for the input. We would love to have you here more often.
@*Alesha* quit my day job? I would starve!
I'm not that good at writing. Yes, I'm a proofreader/editor and words flow like water when I'm asked questions about myself. But as for writing fiction that comes out of nowhere, I have no clue. Sorry I hadn't gotten to any writing prompts. Some don't apply to me - thanksgiving, snow.

I guess I'd be able to get a lot of creative work done collaborating with someone I'm close to.

btw, off topic but how can we write in strikethrough on here? There's some poetry I'd like to share on the forum but it has different fonts, one of which is strikethrough.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Windblownhair said:


> Links to poetry threads and prose threads:
> 
> Description from description’s sake drives me nuts. It’s the sort of thing I skim when I’m reading.
> 
> ...


LOL A kindred spirit. L.M.Montgomery is exactly who I was thinking of when I wrote the post. Total description overkill and I read all her books while a teenager and I did skim all the sunset descriptions!

Too little? That is a tough one. Hemmingway is leaner in description for sure. Theres got to be enough that you can "be there". I personally didn't get enough from Stephanie Myers-- or maybe its that I didn't get the right kind of description for me? It felt wantng to me, like she was telling us about Edward instead of showing. She was mostly plot with a smattering of Belle musing, but kind of sparse in description, imo.


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## 7rr7s (Jun 6, 2011)

Alesha said:


> New post: What writers do you try to emulate? Feel free to discuss poets, novelists or non-fiction writers. Feel free to bring quotes to the board. Why? What do you get out of it?


I don't reall try, it just kind of happens by osmosis. I've had people tell me my writing sounds like Fitzgerald, and Hemingway though. Some of it sounds kind of like Carver or Cheever though. I don't know. Henry Miller was the writer who made me want to write though. Fitzgerald is the only one I've actually written stuff of his out though to get a feel for it. In general though, I like different things about different writers and take what I can from them. I prefer stuff more along the lines of Fitzgerald, Woolf, James, Joyce, and Faulkner, vs. Hemingway or Carver, although I do like the tone Hemingway and Carver manage to achieve through minimalism. 

If we look at sentence structure as compared to the aspect line in say, music or art, I'm more drawn to stuff by Coltrane or Pollock than I am to Miles or Rothko. In the same way, I enjoy stuff that may be a bit more challenging when it comes to literature. _Ulysses_, or _The Sound and the Fury_, are both challenging reads for instance, especially for modern readers who are used to the trimmed down prose of contemporary fiction, but they're some of the most rewarding reads in all of literature. I forgot where I heard this, but I heard somewhere that when people think of someone like Hemingway or Carver, they remember the voice, but not the characters or stories. I can kind of see that, how their voice can overshadow their work at times, and modern writing is still very much living in their shadow. That being said, Hemingway's _The Garden of Eden_ and Carver's _What We Talk About When We Talk About Love_ are amazing reads. 

Anyways, this is something helpful I read. After you've completed a decent edit, where you've worked out your characters, tightened up the sentences, fixed any plot issues, and strengthened all of your scenes, take a clean copy, and write the name of your story at the top but write an author's name you really admire. Then read the first few paragraphs. Would you stop reading, or keep going? It's an interesting exercise. 

Another thing you can do, is take two of your favorite writers, and try to write one scene you like out of theirs in the voice of the other. This is good because it forces you to think critically about what it is in each one that makes their voice unique. Syntax, diction, what they tend to focus on or leave out, sentence length, ect. 



raschel said:


> I quite liked hearing Stephen King, thanks a lot =) i never thought to search him on writing
> Interesting thing to say... character versus plot.
> Why did the audience laugh when he said plot? Hmm...
> 
> ...


Stephen King's _On Writing_ is a pretty valuable read for writers. Also check out Sol Stein's _On Writing_, Knight's _Writing Short Fiction_, and McCann's _Letters To A Young Writer_. I'll add more when I get a chance to review all of my writing books, loll. 



Micky1994 said:


> Finally, i have found you guys! It's great that writers can chat on here. I do like to write myself. Mainly short stories, but love writing prose poems aswell. Have any of you guys written any prose poems?


Nice!!! What kind of stories, and what are some of your favorite short stories of all time? 



Alesha said:


> @*Blue Christmas* I hope you post a ton. I like even that little example of writing that you gave us. @*Sei35* maybe writing is what you truly need to do. Maybe you need to quit your day job eventually and write. What about plays or screen writing if dialogue is the thing that draws you? That sounds awesome.


Thanks, I plan to!!! . 



Alesha said:


> *New topic: Do you like description? How much is too much? How much is too little?*
> Bring out examples if you can think of them.


Yes. When it focuses on one thing for too long it ca be a bit much, but when it moves around to different things to bring a scene to life it's much more effective. 

"The man drove his car to work." Too little. 

"The big portly man with dirty, long brown hair, who was wearing his grey uniform that was missing a button, drove his '92 Chevy down the interstate where he got stuck in traffic and thought about how the car needed new brakes, and he didn't like that it was rusted and smelled like cigarette smoke and had seats that were falling apart and the air conditioning didn't work." Too much. 

"The man lit a cigarette and tossed the pack of Malboros on the seat of his beat up '92 Chevy. He was stuck in traffic and was pissed he'd be late for work." Right amount. 



I think alot of time what makes good description work is having the right word for what you're trying to say. Or trying to see somthing new in the ordinary. Also, using all 5 or even 6 senses to your full advantage. Smell seems to be underutilized in alot of writing descriptions, for example. 



Sei35 said:


> @*Blue Christmas* thanks for the input. We would love to have you here more often.
> @*Alesha* quit my day job? I would starve!
> I'm not that good at writing. Yes, I'm a proofreader/editor and words flow like water when I'm asked questions about myself. But as for writing fiction that comes out of nowhere, I have no clue. Sorry I hadn't gotten to any writing prompts. Some don't apply to me - thanksgiving, snow.
> 
> ...


Thanks!!! I know what you mean about the prompts, too. 

Hmmm, maybe try these: 

Think of someone you hate, your worst enemy, someone you can't stand. Now write a short scene with them as the main charachter and write them in a sympathetic light. 

Describe the room you're in as if the person you're into just told you they love you for the first time. Now describe the same room as if you're on the run for a serious crime and someone is coming to get you. 

Describe a man watching the sun rise, except yesterday he burried his only son. You can't mention the death of his son in the description though.


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## Micky1994 (Mar 7, 2017)

> Nice!!! What kind of stories, and what are some of your favorite short stories of all time?


I mainly write short stories that are surreal but have deeper meanings. I also like to practise poetry even though I'm not good at it, mainly because I like the way you don't have to explain things in it. It can be open to interpretation which I love stories that have that. My biggest influence, creatively, is probably David Lynch. If I'm ever struggling with a stories world or the tone of a piece, re-watching Lost Highway always sparks my creativity off. 

My favourite short stories are anything by Nic Pizzolatto, or the Town Manager by Thomas Ligotti. I don't usually like reading weird fiction too much as it creeps me out haha, but The Town Manager was just too intriguing to put down. 

Also, I just wanted to answer that question about what makes a good first paragraph? 

I personally think something that can set a pretty clear tone and voice, and something that avoids the usual cliches like opening with bad weather or 'Hi, my name is John Apples, and this is my story'. I'm not even joking I have seen this opening line quite a few times in writing forums. Unless the cliched opening line manages to twist it into something new of course. I definitely agree that sometimes it seems that writers go for a shock effect with the first line just to grab the reader, which is a shame because sometimes that kind of shock opening doesn't suit the tone or style of the piece.

I've really enjoyed reading this thread so far, it's the first writing discussion I've ever properly got into, I usually just post my stories on Writing Forums and that's it. So I hope to be able to post quite a bit in here. Thanks!


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

@Micky1994 Welcome. I'm also a David Lynch fan! @Blue Christmas I love the examples of "too much" and "too little" and "just right." It's very helpful and fun to read.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

*Next Topic: How do you create a mood? How do you create a tone? Give some ideas out on creating somber or playful. *


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## Micky1994 (Mar 7, 2017)

Alesha said:


> *Next Topic: How do you create a mood? How do you create a tone? Give some ideas out on creating somber or playful. *



I don't know if my answer will give much insight, but as far as I am consciously aware, I create a tone or mood by first either diving into the work through a first person voice. Usually it's a narrator who I just instantly am able to put on the page. For instance, I wrote a story about an incompetent boxer, and his voice just suddenly came to me. It's hard to describe lol. But most of the time I will create a mood by spending a lot of time in that world in my head first. I usually gather songs that are part of the mood I want to create. I usually get some kind of hunch when an idea fits a certain story. 

Often I can keep a reign on the tone by having an idea if the story world is a harsh world or a forgiving world. Also, the way humour is used in the story can be a great way controlling tone. Is it dry, slapstick, dark? 

That's as about as best I can do to describe it. Thanks!


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

*NEW TOPIC: Do you write on paper? Or do you type? Do you think your book might be different if you did it the other way?

*Here's a podcast all about how this kind of thing affects the flow of your book. 
Blubrry PowerPress Player


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Alesha said:


> *NEW TOPIC: Do you write on paper? Or do you type? Do you think your book might be different if you did it the other way?
> 
> *Here's a podcast all about how this kind of thing affects the flow of your book.
> Blubrry PowerPress Player


I write with pen and paper and strike out stuff and add stuff in margins. When I read it over to edit then I can see my original thought process and still add or subtract on a second draft. Then (in theory lol) I type it. I think the podcaste was really interesting in examining the process of writing and how this kind of thing can influence your writing.


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## 7rr7s (Jun 6, 2011)

Alesha said:


> *Next Topic: How do you create a mood? How do you create a tone? Give some ideas out on creating somber or playful. *


Usually through setting. Tone is probably the hardest to explain. Alot of the time, it's more about what's not said, or what's implied. Hemingway's short story _Hills Like White Elephants_, for example is about a man trying to convince his girlfriend to have an abortion, but it's never really mentioned directly. 

Or, over the course of a story or a collection, you're exposed to a certain vision that the author has. _In A Moveable Feast_, there's a lot of scenes with people eating, and he talks about being a young unknown writer when he was living in Paris. On the surface, yeah he's talking about people eating or being hungry, but he's actually talking about the hunger to write. Or in _The Great Gatsby_, with the green light. On the surface it symbolizes Daisy and what he had to do to try and get her, but on a deeper level, it's symbolizing American ambition and Gatsby becomes more of an archetype for the self made man, a uniquely American theme. 

Tone though can represent a time and place too. The roaring 20s in _Gatsby_, for instance, Joyce's Ireland, or Faulkner's south. You get a sense for the place after reading those stories. It's more than just setting or description. Tone is about the revelation behind those things.

Metaphor, symbolism, imagery can all be used to bring out tone. Colors in _Gatsby_, for instance, or the skull in _To The Lighthouse._ The whale in _Moby Dick_, or The Judge in _Blood Meridian. _

Sometimes, I think just voice can bring out tone, too. This is probably the most apparent in genre stuff, especially romance and noir. 

Some ideas for Somber. This is a scene from one of my stories. A couple who's broken up but still living together prepare for Hurricane Katrina. 


* *






“My grandmother stayed and waited out Betsy. This can't be worse than that. And where would we even stay? Every place from here to Galveston is booked solid. Being stuck in this house with you is bad enough, I'm not getting into a traffic jam with you.” 

Anthony could see it was no use arguing with Carla. She was adamant about staying. 

“Alright, well I'm boarding up the windows just in case.” 

Carla sighed and went to the fridge to open a bottle of wine. Might as well, she thought. When Anthony was done with the windows, she checked her phone. There was a message from her mother and father saying they were heading to the Superdome. She looked at the time. It was five-o-clock. 

Anthony had left the TV on and on the screen the news showed the freeways choked with traffic, everyone deciding at the last minute to not try and risk it. They showed the people all huddled in the Superdome. They looked scared, shaken.

“I don't want to go out in this, Anthony, but I'm worried about them,” Carla said, distressed. 

“The Superdome is safe, otherwise they wouldn't be telling people to go there. They'll be fine Carla.” 

“Even if I went down there how would I find them? I just hope they're safe.” 

“They're safe,” Anthony reassured her. “Try not to worry,” he said as he hugged her. 

“Don't. We're still broken up,” Carla said as she left the room. 

Anthony hadn't forgotten. What had started as a plan to move into their own place after six months of being together had dissolved into bickering, constant fights, and long silences between them. They had broken up a week earlier, and she was waiting for her friend's lease to run out so she could move in with her. They still had a week left, and it had been the worst one yet. Where they used to cuddle and watch movies on the couch now became a battleground where conversations ended with the other one storming away in anger and resentment. She had started to move her stuff into boxes, but there was still remnants of her everywhere. Hair on the pillow, her coffee mug in the drawer, her shampoo and soap in the bathroom. But none of it felt good anymore, and Anthony felt tense whenever he was around her now. He looked at some boxes she had lying out. One of them read Mardi Gras '04. He opened it and pulled out doubloons and different colored beads. He smiled to himself, but he knew that the nights on St. Charles he and Carla spent that first year in New Orleans, and the drinking, the beads, the loud jazz, the costumed revelry was now only just a memory. Things were different now, and he knew there was no going back. It made him sad in a sense, but he was happy that he had gotten to experience it with her. He turned his attention now to the TV. 


“Katrina is now a Category 5 and heading further into the Gulf Coast.” 


Anthony opened the door, and the hot salty air felt wet against his face. He could feel the wind now. This is it, he thought. He looked at the windows. He hoped the boards would hold. 

“Here, have one,” Carla said, handing him a Budweiser. “I feel weird drinking alone.” 

“This is the real deal, Carla,” he said, shutting the door. 

“I hope not. I hope it just fizzles out.” They sat down and sipped their drink. Anthony turned up the volume on the TV and they both sat side by side on the couch not talking.





Another idea for somber from one of my stories: A man writes to a woman he convinced to have an abortion when they were younger, before she left him.

* *






My wife is calling me to dinner now. I hear my girls still playing and watching TV. I think you'd like them. They always ask me why daddy writes so many postcards. Sometimes I'll let them pick them out. When they get older they'll ask me why I spend so much time alone in my study, why I slur my words after I come out, why I fall asleep on the couch with all the lights on watching Travel Channel, and why I am so involved in Right To Life when our parish does fundraisers. 

And it's on nights like these, when I am feeling especially morose, when there's no one to hold me and I've had a few too many, that I wipe away a tear and think of all the ways I miss you and all the things I never got to know. My memory of you diminishes now with every passing year, softened by every fleeting drama, the luster of it worn and faded, the meaning cryptic, vague. The picture of you browns with time and I pull it out sometimes and wonder about all the things that could have been. My heart sits snug in my throat and beats achingly so, but it's like hoping for a rainbow that I know will never come. Where are those Spring rains? Where is that orange glow of summer? I put those questions aside for I'm too old to dwell on such things now. I close my eyes and picture Spring. I picture you smiling somewhere and this makes me smile. I sit down and write another postcard. I tell you how my life is, and I ask about your own. I wish you well and sign my name. And then I throw it in a box, with the rest I never sent you.










Some ideas for playful. This is a scene from one of my stories. Most of my stories are more serious, but this one was a love story.


* *






His loft was only a few blocks away; they were holding hands as they walked towards it. Their talk became very animated and they laughed now and then. The streets were saturated with twilight and promise and when he squeezed her hand she squeezed it in return. When they reached his loft, he walked in and went to the cabinet above the stove. Pulling two glasses, he grabbed a bottle of wine and began to pour. She took a seat on the sofa, setting her small purse alongside her, admiring the furnishings and looking at the pictures he had displayed.

"This is a nice place. You definitely have good taste."

"Yeah, I'm proud of it,” he said handing her a glass. 

"You're well off." 

"What do you mean?"

"Money is not really important to you, not how it is for most people."

He took a sip of his wine. "You think you have me all figured out, is that it?"

"Not quite. I'm just ...very intuitive."

"Well, what have you intuited so far?"

"I'm not sure if I should say."

"Go on, tell me. I'm a big boy, I can take it."

She paused for a second and then spoke. "You don't feel you're as great as you project yourself to be. You chase things because you feel inadequate. But you're not. There's more to you than you let on, but it's not the things you think."

She had his attention now. "Go on."

"You flaunt things but you don't need to. And you're really a sweetheart. Deep down you believe in things. Like love. You're a romantic at heart."

Damien smirked. “I can assure you I'm quite the cynic."

"You say that, but I think underneath, there is something ‒ I don't know, soft about you."

"Well I won't lie, there is a soft side of me, although not everyone see's it. I sense that there are parts of you that you don't reveal either. There's a wild side to you. There's a part of you that you haven't discovered yet."

"A wild side?" 

"Pretty sure about it. You are full of surprises."

"I guess I'll have to keep that up then, surprising you."

"I'd like that. I need someone to keep me on my toes."



. 






Alesha said:


> *NEW TOPIC: Do you write on paper? Or do you type? Do you think your book might be different if you did it the other way?
> 
> *Here's a podcast all about how this kind of thing affects the flow of your book.
> Blubrry PowerPress Player


I type. I can't read my own handwriting because when the ideas start coming to me, I can't write hem down fast enough. So it ends up really sloppy and I can never make it out, loll. So yeah I usually type, although sometimes I will write down words and kind of brain storm stuff for the stories. It's also easier for me to see how they are all connected too. 

I think I talked about this earlier, how if you have a collection of 12 stories, the collection itself should really be the 13th story. I kind of view it like that. And that goes back to tone too, it's like, all of the stories are all saying something, and they can all stand on their own, but the stories as a whole serve to heighten the meaning.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

@Blue Christmas I really appreciate you bringing in your own writing. I think Katrina coming in and the uncertainty of the relationship and what would happen played super well together for a very precarious feeling in that one-- a really good example of mood and each noun you talked about seemed to also hold that precariousness since all of it would be gone. Each example was very readable--- I want to know what happens next! Thank you!


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## raschel (Apr 8, 2014)

@Micky1994 this is my first time hearing this term: _prose poem_. So thanks. Love some of what I came across on google images. I realise my journals from back in the day would probably be prose poetry. At that time I hadn't learned about poetry at all but my writing had the cadence that I've been reading about in books.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

raschel said:


> @Micky1994 this is my first time hearing this term: _prose poem_. So thanks. Love some of what I came across on google images. I realise my journals from back in the day would probably be prose poetry. At that time I hadn't learned about poetry at all but my writing had the cadence that I've been reading about in books.


Raschel, do you want to try to help out with some poetry info on here? It sounds like some people would like to try but don't know where to start. I wrote a poem that I wasn't TOO attached to that we could "tweek" if needed it's posted on the INFJ poetry. If it helps to try to have everyone "change this poem" depending on whatever aspect of poetry you want to bring up. I think you said you were taking a course in poetry?


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## Fennel (Jan 11, 2017)

So many questions, so little time...

There are some samples of my writing in INFJ Poetry, 2 or 3 pieces, months ago. Not sure which ones I posted though. I hadn't written anything seriously in a while.
*New topic: Do you like description? How much is too much? How much is too little?
*
Haha. No. Personally I don't like descriptions but most of the time they are necessary.

I prefer the kind of wordplay found in haiku that kinda gets lost in translation. Take Basho's frog-pond haiku for example:
5 Translations of the Frog Pond Haiku by Matsuo Bashō — Beechwood Review 

*Next Topic: How do you create a mood? How do you create a tone? Give some ideas out on creating somber or playful.*
I have no idea. You tell me.

*NEW TOPIC: Do you write on paper? Or do you type? Do you think your book might be different if you did it the other way?

*Ideally I'd write everything on paper, usually scratch paper. I had poems that took months to write. Months of notes put together. If they were typed and saved on a computer, it would be harder for me to collect my thoughts. I do write some stuff purely by typing. Mostly schoolwork or for my job. I type when I have to force myself to come up with ideas in a short period of time, so the quality is a bit different. I'm not satisfied but people are usually okay with what I write. I just don't like the idea of writing on demand, I'm too lazy to do that often.

The notable exceptions to the writing-on-paper thing are my poetry based on chats. In many parts, they are copy-pasted word for word from actual chats. These people will not be named. I have yet to save any conversation of mine on Discord though.

I have no book. As for my poetry collections, they have never been published. I suppose they weren't interesting enough. And the experimental ones are an editor's nightmare.


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## Micky1994 (Mar 7, 2017)

raschel said:


> @Micky1994 this is my first time hearing this term: _prose poem_. So thanks. Love some of what I came across on google images. I realise my journals from back in the day would probably be prose poetry. At that time I hadn't learned about poetry at all but my writing had the cadence that I've been reading about in books.


Yeah prose poetry is an interesting little way of writing stories. Sometimes it's just nice to write a prose story with poetry thrown in, and I used to assume neither could blend, but when I found out about the form I was over the moon lol. I've written a few prose poems, but not sure if I should post them anywhere on this sight as they are quite dark. But I definitely encourage any writer to try writing one. It doesn't matter if it leans more toward poetry or prose, it's more about the experimentation. I kind of like to think of it as the art house films or writing haha.


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

Alesha said:


> *NEW TOPIC: Do you write on paper? Or do you type? Do you think your book might be different if you did it the other way?
> 
> [/url]*


*

I write free hand , it's easier for me to write free hand for my thoughts flows out more freely and I have a love for paper and pen . With typing - I can't concentrate too long without feeling a bit distracted 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk*


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## raschel (Apr 8, 2014)

Alesha said:


> Raschel, do you want to try to help out with some poetry info on here? It sounds like some people would like to try but don't know where to start. I wrote a poem that I wasn't TOO attached to that we could "tweek" if needed it's posted on the INFJ poetry. If it helps to try to have everyone "change this poem" depending on whatever aspect of poetry you want to bring up. I think you said you were taking a course in poetry?


Yep, I have just got one-two books on beginning poetry inkface:

If people want to begin from scratch, I'd say a simple starter book is great 
One of the things I have come across surprised me... 
(So you may learn things about poetry you never seen before)

It said that you read a poem over and over. Don't give up on it if it doesn't make sense. Give it time. The words don't necessarily mean what they say, they may mean something once you mull it over in your mind (and your feelings). Especially as a whole 

I have a few anthologies of poetry and I get frustrated sometimes. Mostly because i dont relate or dont understand it completely. But when I'm relaxed I may read poems I've read earlier and found I do quite enjoy them. Such on a long train ride home.
I also thought I should know the meaning but at least from my books, it says no. You bring your own meaning. I haven't quite read anything like that yet.

It kind of reminds me of reading a book in a different language. You will lose your flow if you stop, paying attention to every odd verb or grammatical structure
You can understand pretty easily without doing that.

I'm too early in the stages to edit anything I think. But I would say you are experienced! Your descriptive words are quite colourful 
Again I'd probably add that I'd need to read it over and over...


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## raschel (Apr 8, 2014)

Blue Christmas said:


> ...


Great post :tongues: on collections, on symbols and imagery...and your examples especially for sombre. it is nice to see this, as although you are referring to writing stories it also applies to poetry. And I love when I find it in film, a little more artistic licensing...
I have not read enough fiction to experience this but I would like to. I am very interested right now in symbolism. Particularly for me if it reaches that level as in poetry. You clearly know something _else _is being referred to. Maybe a better term for that is allusion.


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## 0rgans (Jul 23, 2017)

EEEEEEE I like this thread. :crazy:

*Do you like description? How much is too much? How much is too little?*

Yes, I love relevant description. And if it's not relevant, then make it beautiful. 

*How do you create a mood? How do you create a tone? Give some ideas out on creating somber or playful.*

I think the main question is - how do you NOT create mood or tone? Surely that is the backbone of all written pieces. If it didn't have emotion, then it would just crumble onto the floor. Or it would be like a Haynes automobile manual.... 

*Do you write on paper? Or do you type? Do you think your book might be different if you did it the other way?*

I write on paper and on the computer. It's weird, I do think it has an effect. I even think the type of notebook or pen you're using has an effect. I have honed my notebook preference, and currently I am massively into wire bound, squared paper notebooks that are sectioned by colour. The one I am using at the moment is a mathematics project book from paperchase. It's £5. Even the fact it's £5, a rounded up, not too expensive price, helps me. I write on one side of the page, so each new page is fresh and clean. Very satisfying. 
I used to have a moleskine - I love the small feint lines but I don't like the fact it's not wire bound and the fact it's extortionately priced. It makes me afraid to write freely as I feel like I am wasting money. 
I only really write on the computer once I have an idea written in freehand. I am more creative and can brainstorm better in freehand. Writing on the computer is great for editing the ridiculous nonsense into some sort of sense. 

---

Anyway, I am reading Zen in the Art of Writing by Ray Bradbury. I recommend this x1000. I think Ray was either INFP or ENFP with very developed Si. 
Whenever I read it, I feel it slightly pushes open the door to my room of memories. That lost, strange room that I always neglect. I'm sure it's full to the brim with all sorts of objects and memorabilia. 
The thought of sitting down and working through all that; going in and dealing with the musty smell and dust up my nose - the thousands of bulging cardboard boxes; sifting through and opening up each one, one by one... Would be a mammoth task that I don't think my whole life would be long enough to do it all in, to the depth it deserves. 

Mmm.. Having NF, for me, is like experiencing life through the perspectives of all beings that live, have lived and will live. Through mine and their dreams, through mine and their hallucinations. Through mine and their imaginations. 
When I consider an action, especially in art or writing, I take into account my reality, my imagination, my dreams, my memories and my values. I also take into account those said things of my friends and family. Of people I have never met. Of animals and how my choices will affect them. How it will make them feel, if they read it. Sometimes I feel like writing is like trying to edit an epic movie, using footage from every second of my and everyone else's realities, dreams, memories and imaginations. Yea, thats a lot of footage...

Anyway.... Can anyone recommend any books that trigger a writing monsoon?


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## Micky1994 (Mar 7, 2017)

I do like to write on paper first. I think it's because most of the time my writing is done in short spurts. I can't sit at a desk and just write sometimes, unless I am free writing or writing poetry. Usually I like to write in drips and drabs. Forming the story and its world wheni catch an idea I like. Most of the writing is done in my head, as is the same for most writers! 

I'm certainly not against starting a story on my computer but always find I feel more free from ctricising myself when I write on the page because I can't go back an edit my first draft straight away like you can on the computer. And usually, if I start editing straight away I get caught in perfectionist traps lol.


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## Windblownhair (Aug 12, 2013)

0rgans said:


> Anyway.... Can anyone recommend any books that trigger a writing monsoon?


For me, the 2 most impactful books were:
1)Heinlein’s Rules - 5 Simple Business Rules for Writing, by Dean Wesley Smith
2)Writing Into the Dark, by Dean Wesley Smith

The point of them is pretty simple: write consistently and freely, don’t edit your work into oblivion, and don’t stop when you’ve written yourself into a corner. Trust that your brain has a plan.

It was interesting, because without ever putting it in those specific words, it was very much about trusting your intuition and learning to work with it. 

I liked the point that if you abandon a story once you hit a rough patch (writer’s block, writing into a corner, losing enthusiasm, etc.), you’ll never learn how to get yourself out of trouble. You’ll never develop problem-solving abilities or tenacity. 

Bradbury wasn’t so far off that message, himself. I love how simply he expressed the idea that one learns to write by WRITING.

“Just write every day of your life. Read intensely. Then see what happens. Most of my friends who are put on that diet have very pleasant careers.”

“The only good writing is intuitive writing. It would be a big bore if you knew where it was going. It has to be exciting, instantaneous and it has to be a surprise. Then it all comes blurting out and it’s beautiful. I’ve had a sign by my typewriter for 25 years now which reads, ‘DON’T THINK!’”

“Write a short story every week. It’s not possible to write 52 bad stories in a row.”

“Write a thousand words a day and in three years you will be a writer.”


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Windblownhair said:


> For me, the 2 most impactful books were:
> 1)Heinlein’s Rules - 5 Simple Business Rules for Writing, by Dean Wesley Smith
> 2)Writing Into the Dark, by Dean Wesley Smith
> 
> ...


Wow..I love all of this!


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## Micky1994 (Mar 7, 2017)

Hi guys hope you have had a good Christmas and new year. Just messaging here because I'm going to off until next month as I am moving house and won't have Internet until Feb lol. Will miss this thread!


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## 7rr7s (Jun 6, 2011)

*New Topic: Are there any recurring themes or symbols in your stories or poems? Are they conscious ones or unconscious ones? *


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Blue Christmas said:


> *New Topic: Are there any recurring themes or symbols in your stories or poems? Are they conscious ones or unconscious ones? *


What a good question. =)

Redemption and forgiveness are really powerful themes for me to read and my story ideas usually reflect that. 
Objectivism about cultures and thinking patterns is another for me--- basically independent thought 
Isolation but then becoming socially accepted while still maintaining independent thought and decision-making.
Slavery and freedom


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## 0rgans (Jul 23, 2017)

Blue Christmas said:


> *New Topic: Are there any recurring themes or symbols in your stories or poems? Are they conscious ones or unconscious ones? *



The moon. Attics. Suburban towns. Hallucinations. Empty vast fields. Seaweed. Tarmac. Navy night sky. Teeth and bones. Fire and blood. Bedsheets. Tungsten lightbulbs. Inhalers. Comets. Creeks and estuaries. Chipped nail varnish...

Definitely and always unconscious. Writing is the only way I can figure my reality out.


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## raschel (Apr 8, 2014)

When I write, the themes are more conscious because I need to know my themes if I want to create something fulfilling.

The unconscious activity of mine is in collecting items, whether I am buying something or saving a picture/story on my hard drive. With that I like to find the themes by skimming over what I have.

One of the strangest themes I found is on let's say, oppressed women or women in oppressed times. Such as a Victorian time. The woman and her own life, then her husband and acquaintances...

It's a fun activity seriously... like self-psychoanalysis. I have not gone deep into Carl Jung's work but I believe he has touched up on recurring symbolism and imagery.


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## 7rr7s (Jun 6, 2011)

I think mine is mostly unconscious, but there's a lot of pain in my writing. Themes of struggle, loss, regret, lost love, wasted lives and broken people. Also, seasons and weather are a recurring theme.


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## Fennel (Jan 11, 2017)

Usually conscious. I don't write unless I really have to, and then I procrastinate until something is almost fully formed in my conscious mind.


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## Windblownhair (Aug 12, 2013)

Blue Christmas said:


> *New Topic: Are there any recurring themes or symbols in your stories or poems? Are they conscious ones or unconscious ones? *


Redemption. Love of learning. Libraries. Time travel. Scent and memory. Inevitability. Falling apart and coming together.

Definitely all unconscious themes. I’m not one to tackle themes consciously. I enjoy surprising myself when I write.


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## Micky1994 (Mar 7, 2017)

Stable Genius said:


> *New Topic: Are there any recurring themes or symbols in your stories or poems? Are they conscious ones or unconscious ones? *


Nice question! I've actually never really been conscious of recurring themes in my stories until I read your question ha. But I guess I am drawn to write stories of worlds that are just off centre from our world. I love surrealism and metaphor so I guess they are recurring themes. 

I like to write about characters who are struggling to find the right way to act in the world. For instance I wrote a story about a young adult struggling to find his father in a world where nature was dying out. He was a character who had never worked in his life, and soon realised that all the workers who had died were growing plant life, but he couldn't grow anything. It was a metaphor of the fear of not doing enough in your life before you die. 

I also like to write about manipulative characters, I guess they are just fun to write x-D


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## 7rr7s (Jun 6, 2011)

HOTT NEW UPDATE!!! I just finished the first draft of a story I've been writing for years. AND I DID IT ALL IN ONE SITTING!!! .


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## Fennel (Jan 11, 2017)

I need some help. My INTJ, the one I proofread for, is depressed. I don't know how to help him anymore.
He doesn't like to talk about feelings... writing is pretty much his only outlet, and he's good at it.
I hope he gets inspired again so he could continue.


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## Windblownhair (Aug 12, 2013)

Stable Genius said:


> HOTT NEW UPDATE!!! I just finished the first draft of a story I've been writing for years. AND I DID IT ALL IN ONE SITTING!!! .


Congrats! That’s an awesome achievement 



Sei35 said:


> I need some help. My INTJ, the one I proofread for, is depressed. I don't know how to help him anymore.
> He doesn't like to talk about feelings... writing is pretty much his only outlet, and he's good at it.
> I hope he gets inspired again so he could continue.


Poor guy. I can relate to engaging better with my feelings on paper than verbalizing. That artificial distance of writing characters instead of analyzing yourself allows for a level of objectivity (or at least lesser subjectivity).

For me personally, engaging Fe or Se are the things that can pull me out of my head and out of a funk. I’d think for an INTJ, this might hold true from engaging Te/Se. I don’t know if you’re in a position to effect change in that way or not...

I hope your friend finds a way back to a healthy place and his writing habit.


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## Dissenter (Jul 31, 2017)




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## 0rgans (Jul 23, 2017)

Dissenter said:


>


This is interesting. I have been pretty much obsessed with music since I was a child, for no real reason. No one in my family was that interested in music. It started becoming a very strong obsession once I got to 11 years old. I discovered Nirvana, and the rest is fucking history. Nirvana were like the gateway drug to other bands and artists from all sorts of genres and eras. 
It's strange, I started learning guitar when I was about 23. My housemate had an electric guitar. My friend put a tab up for "Here comes your man" by The Pixies and then they left to get some food from a shop down the road. By the time he had came back, I had learned the intro to the song, with no help from anyone. 
I realised then that I could achieve anything if I tried. My artistic interests evolved, some things fell away, other things emerged. It took me a very long time to realise that writing is the greatest "medium" for me to convey my ideas. I would write about how stunted I felt with art, as I couldn't express the idea properly in drawing or painting, not realising I was writing away, for hours and hours, and enjoying it.

I think if you're going to be interested in writing fiction, you're going to burst out with poetry every now and then. And if you're good at writing poetry, it seems fit that you would excel in music. Writing has a rhythm, a beat and flow, moments of quiet and then climaxes, much like music. Both writing and music tell a story.


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## Yami no Yume (Oct 31, 2017)

Do any of you struggle with the anxiety that anything you come up with might already be there, be just a copy, or will already be published before you publish your writing? How do you deal with that?

It really bothers me everytime I come up with some new ideas and it blocks me immediately


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## 0rgans (Jul 23, 2017)

Yami no Yume said:


> Do any of you struggle with the anxiety that anything you come up with might already be there, be just a copy, or will already be published before you publish your writing? How do you deal with that?
> 
> It really bothers me everytime I come up with some new ideas and it blocks me immediately




This is a poem from ancient egypt, complaining about how they believe everything they write has been done before.. In 19th century BC. 

That should add some perspective...

The only story you can tell is the one that lives inside you. It has never been told before, as it is your own personal story. 

Find that place where it lives. That is where you pull your words from.


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## Fennel (Jan 11, 2017)

I am proud of this little bit of the latest story my INTJ wrote (with my help, of course). Read it fast out loud if you dare.



> Lo and behold, the moment I opened the merciful doors, right off the bat, like a freshly brewed _Kapeng Barako_ hitting your nasals with its aroma—swiftly putting me in a trancelike state and I, readers, humbly submit in a dashing fashion—teetering, stuttering in confusion, dizzying, overwhelming menus in the background, and she—she handling the impossible coffee machines, a cup of cappuccino please—swept by the way she tied her hair, by how her strong and piercing voice uttered “not available” and how her feline eyes looked at you waiting for your next order with a sweet, even if mandatory, smile—pounding, grinding your coffee bean like heart to bits, the petite Coffea grower of your romantic plantation, the pony tailed heroine of your career defining story! No you don’t want a latte but that’s what you ordered anyway. Then a ham and egg sandwich please…and carbonara, you said. You swayed your way through the amusing set of tables—each one of them differs from color, size, theme and shape, heck, there was even a Lolita themed bed! It wasn’t openly indicated but you read the vile yet enchanting novel and can easily identify with the subtle Enchanted Hunters reference and the simulated gifts from H.H. resting at the bedside. You decided to sit in the Haruki Murakami themed table in the quiet corner, there’s a picture frame of him petting a cat, a couple of references from his books drawn in the table. God, you love this place, and now you’re speaking to yourself in second person you literary fool!


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

0rgans said:


> This is a poem from ancient egypt, complaining about how they believe everything they write has been done before.. In 19th century BC.
> 
> That should add some perspective...
> 
> ...


That is so darn cool, 0rgans!


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

This thread has a sister thread:

http://personalitycafe.com/nfs-temp...76578-writer-s-challenge-writer-s-prompt.html


NEW TOPIC: What is your type and do you enjoy reading novels written in first person?

So it's by far my favorite. I have a favorite author (Mary Stewart, I believe a INTJ) who has written in both third and first person and I enjoy the books in first person much more. I feel like I can feel exactly what the character is thinking and feeling and this translates as clearer and funner for me... and almost somehow as a relief. Do I love it because I'm Fi-aux? Or is it just me that wishes every book were in first person? But of course it's not my only criteria for liking a book or anything, I just notice with the authors that switch around that I have a clear preference. 
Do you guys find that you have a preference on tense? What type are you and do you think its related?

I also enjoy Tolstoy and John Cooper Powys' and William Faulkner's way of writing 3rd person from one person's point of view and then switching.


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## Windblownhair (Aug 12, 2013)

How’s everyone been doing these days?

I feel like I’ve been trapped in editing land for ages. My Nanowrimo book should wrap just in time for Camp Nanowrimo in April. I am excited to hit the ground running and sort of dive in without a plan. :ninja:

On the downside, I usually have plenty of company from my writing group during these things, and I don’t think much of anyone is doing it this time. Not their fault...meetings keep getting held up by Nor’easters...but still a bummer, all the same :sad:


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## Windblownhair (Aug 12, 2013)

Alesha said:


> This thread has a sister thread:
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/nfs-temp...76578-writer-s-challenge-writer-s-prompt.html
> 
> ...


Ohhhhh! We must both be in a writing mood at the same time. Fun fun.

First person is my preference. That said, when I talk to myself, it’s generally in second person, so I can relate to first person characters addressing themselves in this manner. My personal attempt at a poll found that Fe/Ti tended to address itself in second person while Fi/Te used first person, but the correlation wasn’t 100%.

As far as tense, present tense is my favorite. It helps maintain the urgency and suspense.


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## 0rgans (Jul 23, 2017)

Alesha said:


> NEW TOPIC: What is your type and do you enjoy reading novels written in first person?


HULLO! 

ENFP and Yes. 

There is something oddly indulgent about reading a book that is written in first person. Most of my favourite books are written in that way. Namely; The Catcher in the Rye, So The Wind Won't Blow It All Away, Jane Eyre, The Secret History, Hunger, A Girl is a Half-formed Thing...

The Collector by John Fowles is a good one to look at regarding first person writing. The book follows two main characters, the first half is the captors perspective, and the second is the captive's perspective... 

I think reading/writing in first person is definitely an Fi thing as it's a "personal" perspective. Third person is almost like a Ti way of writing. Just generally speaking, though. I don't want to make assumptions ^_^


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## raschel (Apr 8, 2014)

_First person_ makes a great feeling-adventure imo :redface-new: I have not read a lot of them for adults, but I have liked the ones I have read/watched as movies, comics.
Actually in the movie _The Hours_ there is a character I liked but which they did not go into that far, so I went off to borrow Michael Cunningham's book. Unfortunately I didn't get what I thought I'd find =P but that's how good characters can be! Other first-person books I have read and liked are by John Porcellino and OBOM. They are more autobiographies and I think this genre is just naturally rich and a pleasure to read. As they say, fact is stranger than fiction...

Recently when I have time, I've begun to read books called "Readers". And I've got more of a chance to read first-person. Even the ones that are not about a person, but just about something they think about I really enjoy.
A reader is a collection of writings and stories under a theme(s) and there are chapters on studying what you've read, along with assignments or questions.


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## ENFPurpleKitti (Mar 20, 2017)

Alesha said:


> This thread has a sister thread:
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/nfs-temp...76578-writer-s-challenge-writer-s-prompt.html
> 
> ...


Love first person. I also like limited third-person. The fewer clues I have into other people's minds and actions, the more intriguing it is for me, as it gives me more of a chance to unravel them for myself. I also don't like going into too many POVs because it loses depth for me and they all get kinda muddled together after a while.

I don't remember whether I've already commented in this thread, but I have been meaning to. I've read a few pages of it, though. Been dying to be involved in it more.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

@Tridentus and I were talking about how some of the books you read when young are basically some of the biggest influences on who we are and our thought processes (both of us agreed). Also that re-reading these books is a pleasure and validating. What are some books that you may feel had this affect on you?


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

You know, I realize it's not the super impressive books. I mean, these are children's books mostly and some of them are actually fantasy books, and it really doesn't matter. I mean they kind of molded my writing style and they just feel like home. Maybe it's my baby Si. Anyway, these are the ones that I loved at that impressionable age: Little Women, A Lantern in Her Hand, The Forgotten Beasts of Eld, The Crystal Cave Series, The Anne of Green Gables and Emily of New Moon series, a book called The Lark and the Laurel, The Witch of Blackbird Pond, Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of Nihm. 
I was an adult with Harry Potter, so I can't count it really, although it also influences me. 
Also.... I SO SO love reading books to my kids. Some of the ones I wanted to read to them were ones I loved my mom reading to me. 
I wanted to read them "Down the Long Trails" when they were 7, since the protagonist is a 7 year old boy. But they were too young. 
I wanted to wait until they (my kids are twins) were 11 before reading Harry Potter to them but I got impatient and couldn't help it and tried with they were 6. So I'm reading the Sorcerer's Stone to them and I'm on the last chapter when they meet Voldemort and all of a sudden my 6 year old son says, "Wait! Who is Hermione?" I mean!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm on the LAST chapter! LOL 
Okay, so learn something from me. Also I had an ideal that we wouldn't watch the movies first, but since I couldn't successfully read them the books, obviously, then I got impatient again and they saw them all. We still love it all and they have now read them themselves several times through. =)


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## Windblownhair (Aug 12, 2013)

Anne Shirley (Anne of Green Gables series by L.M. Montgomery) - Another kid with a big imagination that didn’t really fit in, writer, and I liked the playful dynamic with Gilbert. 

Cimorene (Enchanted Forest Chronicles by Patricia C. Wrede) - I appreciated her spunkiness, quietly doing her on thing, creativity.

Beauty (Beauty by Robin McKinley) - Love of learning and language.

It was comforting to find pieces of myself in the characters.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Windblownhair said:


> Anne Shirley (Anne of Green Gables series by L.M. Montgomery) - Another kid with a big imagination that didn’t really fit in, writer, and I liked the playful dynamic with Gilbert.
> 
> Cimorene (Enchanted Forest Chronicles by Patricia C. Wrede) - I appreciated her spunkiness, quietly doing her on thing, creativity.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing, Windblownhair, I need some more books! Okay, I also love Robin McKinley, what a beautiful writer. I'm really affected by Patricia McKillip--like probably more than any other writer if you haven't tried her out. Those 2 are usually on the same shelf, it's kind of still where I walk straight to in a library. 
Oh, also Mary Stewart. You see I put Anne of Green Gables too. 
But Cimorene I know nothing about! Sounds like something to look up for me and my sweet daughter!


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## Windblownhair (Aug 12, 2013)

Alesha said:


> Thank you for sharing, Windblownhair, I need some more books! Okay, I also love Robin McKinley, what a beautiful writer. I'm really affected by Patricia McKillip--like probably more than any other writer if you haven't tried her out. Those 2 are usually on the same shelf, it's kind of still where I walk straight to in a library.
> Oh, also Mary Stewart. You see I put Anne of Green Gables too.
> But Cimorene I know nothing about! Sounds like something to look up for me and my sweet daughter!


I remember reading a McKillip series as a kid - riddle master I think? But it was right before I fell down the Diana Wynne Jones hole, so I think those were the only McKillips I read. Mary Stewart was another one I hit a trilogy of and then nothing else (Merlin for her). 

I’ll have to add them both to my future reading list. :heart:

Forgot about the NIMH series! Reminds me I also liked the Redwall series...Summer of the Monkeys...Wind in the Willows...Watership Down...although those are on the ‘enjoyment’ list more so than having an effect on me.

L.M. Montgomery is one of those funny authors I am _very _torn about. I adored her for creating Anne...her humor was spot on...and she tried so hard to make every kind of person sympathetic. I appreciated all of those qualities. On the other hand, there wasn’t enough character development for people other than Anne, IMO. It’s like they were all around to direct the light toward her. And after the first read through, I flat out skipped the endless nature descriptions. Now my INFP bestie thinks the nature descriptions are the best parts, so definitely just a matter of taste.:laughing:

Your stories about reading with your kids are cracking me up. So admirable the enthusiasm you have more sharing books with them.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

What do you guys think about different ways to publish or get your name out there? Lately I’ve been thinking of fan fiction and then saying “read more of my stuff here...” and link to something like kindle. How are you guys thinking and going about publishing please? 
Found... 
https://www.google.com/amp/s/sunnym...ing-as-a-career-and-five-things-it-didnt/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.inverse.com/amp/article/28107-how-to-make-money-writing-fan-fiction


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## Marvin the Dendroid (Sep 10, 2015)

Alesha said:


> What do you guys think about different ways to publish or get your name out there? Lately I’ve been thinking of fan fiction and then saying “read more of my stuff here...” and link to something like kindle. How are you guys thinking and going about publishing please?


I am a dedicated fan of the Emily Dickinson style of publishing. The only problem with it is finding a way to fund your life that isn't too time- or energy-consuming, since there will be no proceedings from your writing.

Emily wasn't entirely free of sin of course - she did send out some manuscripts, and some things were published while she was alive. I forgive her - she did try.


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## Marvin the Dendroid (Sep 10, 2015)

Alesha said:


> NEW TOPIC: What is your type and do you enjoy reading novels written in first person?


INFJ. First person can work, but all of my favourite books are probably in 3rd person. I certainly "impersonalise" my own experiences when I write, and tend to aim for the underlying symbolism rather than any kind of full-blood experience. I rarely relate to characters anyway, mostly as some kind of abstraction of carefully distilled elements - say, Alyosha in _The Brothers Karamazov_. My book ideas tend not to have any characters in them, and I'm currently exploring a storyline where all the characters are pure abstractions.

I have always found the likes of Tolstoy shallow in their approach to subject matter, too focused on the web to catch the spider. Then again, perhaps I am simply blind to much of what makes social intrigues interesting. I have, for example, attempted to read _Pride and Prejudice_ no less than four times, and only made it about 1/4 in. I recently attempted _Persuasion_ instead, and haven't been able to get past the first 100 pages. It seems I simply can't make my brain summon any interest in the fates of the characters, which is a pity since Austen was doubtlessly a great writer. I will probably try again at some point, if I can get my Fe up & running.

The kind of books I really love tend to focus on some impersonal but universal human quality, like _Lord of the Flies_, _The Heart of Darkness _ or anything by Dostoevsky. None of the characters in those books will make your heart bleed ... they are about something less flesh-and-blood and more ... symbolic perhaps.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Marvin the Dendroid said:


> I am a dedicated fan of the Emily Dickinson style of publishing. The only problem with it is finding a way to fund your life that isn't too time- or energy-consuming, since there will be no proceedings from your writing.
> 
> Emily wasn't entirely free of sin of course - she did send out some manuscripts, and some things were published while she was alive. I forgive her - she did try.


Huh? Not get money! lol Elaborate, please. 
I heard a street musician say (I think this was in a documentary of sorts, he was from India, I believe) say "Music is like a prayer. It should be free." 
But you have to live and sometimes support a family, and if you're spending most of your time writing and don't have a trust fund to live off of...well, I have no problem spending money on books. It's the thing I feel the best about spending my money on, actually. 
Plus think of how much more could be written if people were able to support themselves? Franz Kafka comes to mind who was always grinding away during the day and writing in spare time at night... I will gladly pay for a book. Too bad the proceeds would no longer benefit him.
=) Thoughts?


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## Marvin the Dendroid (Sep 10, 2015)

Alesha said:


> Huh? Not get money! lol Elaborate, please.
> I heard a street musician say (I think this was in a documentary of sorts, he was from India, I believe) say "Music is like a prayer. It should be free."
> But you have to live and sometimes support a family, and if you're spending most of your time writing and don't have a trust fund to live off of...well, I have no problem spending money on books. It's the thing I feel the best about spending my money on, actually.
> Plus think of how much more could be written if people were able to support themselves? Franz Kafka comes to mind who was always grinding away during the day and writing in spare time at night... I will gladly pay for a book. Too bad the proceeds would no longer benefit him.
> =) Thoughts?


Not enough gets written, but far too much ends up being published.

One should write tons, but only publish the absolutely best of it. Maybe 1% of it at most. Ideally posthumously.

Like I said, the obvious challenge is financing your existence while not publishing anything. Emily was lucky, but it isn't impossible if you're careful.

Edit: It isn't wrong to make a living from books, and ideally great writers would be free to create. However it is often the very adversity of their existence that forces them to produce the best of their work. For example, Anna Akhmatova is one of my favourite poets, and although I can see the skill in her acclaimed pre-Stalin works, they have absolutely nothing to say to me. Post-Stalin, everything is covered in immense suffering and _that's_ when her voice achieves true greatness. One simply cannot read her _Requiem_ (in the original Russian anyway) without having one's soul torn to bits.

I detest inheritance and believe proceedings from books should only ever go to their creators, never their children or estate. Also detest publishing houses and everything they stand for. Amazon is doing something similar to the e-book market, Bezos be cursed.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Marvin the Dendroid said:


> INFJ. First person can work, but all of my favourite books are probably in 3rd person. I certainly "impersonalise" my own experiences when I write, and tend to aim for the underlying symbolism rather than any kind of full-blood experience. I rarely relate to characters anyway, mostly as some kind of abstraction of carefully distilled elements - say, Alyosha in _The Brothers Karamazov_. My book ideas tend not to have any characters in them, and I'm currently exploring a storyline where all the characters are pure abstractions.
> 
> I have always found the likes of Tolstoy shallow in their approach to subject matter, too focused on the web to catch the spider. Then again, perhaps I am simply blind to much of what makes social intrigues interesting. I have, for example, attempted to read _Pride and Prejudice_ no less than four times, and only made it about 1/4 in. I recently attempted _Persuasion_ instead, and haven't been able to get past the first 100 pages. It seems I simply can't make my brain summon any interest in the fates of the characters, which is a pity since Austen was doubtlessly a great writer. I will probably try again at some point, if I can get my Fe up & running.
> 
> The kind of books I really love tend to focus on some impersonal but universal human quality, like _Lord of the Flies_, _The Heart of Darkness _ or anything by Dostoevsky. None of the characters in those books will make your heart bleed ... they are about something less flesh-and-blood and more ... symbolic perhaps.


Sacrilege of so many of my favorite authors! lol Oh, we could talk all day, this is great!
What about the exploring the human condition? No? That's my purpose in exploring books.... and most everything.. I love characters that make my heart bleed. And Dostoevsky seems remote and removed for me, the ideas always kind of alarmed me. There wasn't enough.. I'm searching for a word...humanity, I guess, maybe hope or conscientiousness-- the connections between us as humans and how our actions affect those connections and humans. Maybe intimacy. I love _The Heart of Darkness_, though.
I have no idea what a story with characters who were abstractions would be like, got a comparison? Although, I think some myths might be like that, maybe, but because we are humans we are usually drawn to stories and putting a name and face to the hero. That sounds very interesting. I'd like to see a sample of that to get an idea for it. You wouldn't use archetypes or would you? 
There's also a writer's prompts thread, btw.


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## Marvin the Dendroid (Sep 10, 2015)

Alesha said:


> Sacrilege of so many of my favorite authors! lol Oh, we could talk all day, this is great!
> What about the exploring the human condition? No? That's my purpose in exploring books.... and most everything.. I love characters that make my heart bleed. And Dostoevsky seems remote and removed for me, the ideas always kind of alarmed me. There wasn't enough.. I'm searching for a word...humanity, I guess, maybe hope or conscientiousness-- the connections between us as humans and how our actions affect those connections and humans. Maybe intimacy. I love _The Heart of Darkness_, though.
> I have no idea what a story with characters who were abstractions would be like, got a comparison? Although, I think some myths might be like that, maybe, but because we are humans we are usually drawn to stories and putting a name and face to the hero. That sounds very interesting. I'd like to see a sample of that to get an idea for it. You wouldn't use archetypes or would you?
> There's also a writer's prompts thread, btw.


Humans are monsters, and I guess only exploration of the monster in us really does it for me in literature. Everything else feels ... pointless in comparison. We are not _only_ monsters of course, but I guess I am mostly drawn to darkness. Why do we perpetuate suffering? What is it in us that makes us construct torture chambers, mental and physical, for ourselves and our fellow man? Why do we exist if much of our raison d'être requires others to suffer? Yours, too, no matter how nice you mostly are. You can't even eat these days without perpetuating destruction on much of our planet, no matter how hard you try. Every fiber of your existence is tied to structures of death spanning the width, depth and length of mankind.

I can't quite describe the kind of characters I have in mind. My mind constructs stories layer by layer, not piecemeal. First, thin contours of the entire landscape appear, and detail then gets added over the entire painting layer by layer. My INFP friend, by contrast, mostly thinks and writes individual scenes which appear in her mind in great detail, like photographs.

I feel the ... cognitive entities that the characters would represent, but they have no shape yet that I can capture on paper. Layers are being added, and maybe the whole thing will be published some decades from now.

Edit: I can't think of any author or book with the kind of story/characters that seem to be spawning in my mind. Kafka probably comes closest, but even his milieus are a bit too fleshy. However it is possible, maybe likely even, that mine will acquire some flesh as well once all the layers are in place. They're not heroes at all, but rather ... imagine what it feels to have a loveless parent who has no emotional presence, then imagine what that lovelessness _feels_ like, then imagine that lovelessness as a character ... though with complex reasons for being thus, not fleshy reasons but ... eternal traits of **** sapiens, perhaps of existence itself. Not a real person, but an abstraction of ... the painful and complex reasons that make a parent loveless, not present, ephemeral - a shadow. 

Something like that. Definitely not a real person, nor a hero, nor something you can quite picture. Only something terrible you feel in the parts of your soul that you'd rather pretend do not exist. A shadow you could be if you weren't as lucky as you are.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Marvin the Dendroid said:


> Humans are monsters, and I guess only exploration of the monster in us really does it for me in literature. Everything else feels ... pointless in comparison. We are not _only_ monsters of course, but I guess I am mostly drawn to darkness. Why do we perpetuate suffering? What is it in us that makes us construct torture chambers, mental and physical, for ourselves and our fellow man? Why do we exist if much of our raison d'être requires others to suffer? Yours, too, no matter how nice you mostly are. You can't even eat these days without perpetuating destruction on much of our planet, no matter how hard you try. Every fiber of your existence is tied to structures of death spanning the width, depth and length of mankind.
> 
> I can't quite describe the kind of characters I have in mind. My mind constructs stories layer by layer, not piecemeal. First, thin contours of the entire landscape appear, and detail then gets added over the entire painting layer by layer. My INFP friend, by contrast, mostly thinks and writes individual scenes which appear in her mind in great detail, like photographs.
> 
> I feel the ... cognitive entities that the characters would represent, but they have no shape yet that I can capture on paper. Layers are being added, and maybe the whole thing will be published some decades from now.


 What do you think humanity's raison d'etre is? You could argue gluttony? I agree life is based on death. 
As for the way you write, this must be is a Ni and Ne comparison for sure. I will get full scenes, I will get a full world and the premises it operates on all at once. I often don't concentrate on shaping and fleshing out more than the main character, though. That's a weakness of mine. The other characters in my stories are in existence mainly to subject the main character to a hero's journey. I don't consciously write a hero's journey, though, it just is what comes to me. But then I muse on all of it, don't write it out like I "should", waste time, and I often wonder what my greater point is. There seems to always be emotional and/or moral value in the story, but not a greater purpose or point. I thoroughly admire a book that is like a good allegory and I think INFJs might excel at that. I also associate the best books with having a greater point, allegory, or symbolism.

In my small experience, INFPs often write for many and various characters, like Tolstoy does and like Shakespeare does. I admire both very much. Here again with Tolstoy there is emotional/moral value. With Shakespeare there is emotional value, but Shakespeare does not moralize. He does not have a point, that I can tell. Instead, there is a great exploration of the human condition. 

I can admire both ways of writing very much. I do think Ni tends to write with more symbolism. Nathaniel Hawthorn, F. Scott Fitzgerald.

The monster in us. What is the best book for that? I love "A Woman in Berlin" It's a true journal of what happened to women during the Russian occupation of Berlin and it really sheds some light onto the range of human behavior. I find it fascinating and also the book's reception after the war fascinating.


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## ENFPurpleKitti (Mar 20, 2017)

angelcat said:


> I'm actually curious about NanoWriteMo.
> 
> What about it appeals to people?
> Is it the actual challenge of writing a book in a month?
> ...


All of the above, depending who you are. For me, it's the bottom two in your list.


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## Windblownhair (Aug 12, 2013)

angelcat said:


> I'm actually curious about NanoWriteMo.
> 
> What about it appeals to people?
> Is it the actual challenge of writing a book in a month?
> ...


For me, it’s a great Ni trust exercise. I start the month with only the vaguest concept of what the book will be (for instance, this year is ‘alien invasion buddy comedy’). I’ll have a few post-it notes jotted down - maybe a line of dialogue, the title or lyric of a song, or a random word or phrase. 

As the month wears on, I start to get *nervous.* The first few times I include details I don’t understand, it’s easy to dismiss them as something I’ll easily wrap up later. But as the book wears on and on (usually at about the 50-60% mark), I find that there are a lot of loose threads. It’s a terrifying yet exhilarating feeling...writing myself into a corner at a hundred miles an hour. But as I find the corner, I also find that Ni had a plan all along. 

Seeing the threads tie themselves back together...the random bits that seemed like disconnected nothing actually becoming a unified something...it’s amazing. It really is watching my subconscious unfolding because frankly there isn’t time to be that conscious about it. It’s a very cool feeling and the largest part of why I enjoy Nanowrimo.


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## 68097 (Nov 20, 2013)

Windblownhair said:


> But as I find the corner, I also find that Ni had a plan all along.
> 
> Seeing the threads tie themselves back together...the random bits that seemed like disconnected nothing actually becoming a unified something...it’s amazing. It really is watching my subconscious unfolding because frankly there isn’t time to be that conscious about it. It’s a very cool feeling and the largest part of why I enjoy Nanowrimo.


That's almost exactly what an ENFJ friend told me about how she writes things. Since she's Ni-aux, she doesn't feel a need to have everything worked out in her head ahead of time -- she just lets it all put itself together, and it's fun to see how it all connects in ways she was not consciously aware of! So, that's a cool reason to enjoy Nano. 

For me, in writing, Ne sees what's going on and how it's threading together throughout the entire process, even though I don't know how it will all end. It's almost like, chapter by chapter, Ne gives me what I will need next, continually, all the way to the end, sometimes in short term flashes and sometimes in longer term "aha, that's what this character is doing" motivations. 

Writing is fun, especially when you're observing HOW you write.


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## Windblownhair (Aug 12, 2013)

angelcat said:


> That's almost exactly what an ENFJ friend told me about how she writes things. Since she's Ni-aux, she doesn't feel a need to have everything worked out in her head ahead of time -- she just lets it all put itself together, and it's fun to see how it all connects in ways she was not consciously aware of! So, that's a cool reason to enjoy Nano.
> 
> For me, in writing, Ne sees what's going on and how it's threading together throughout the entire process, even though I don't know how it will all end. It's almost like, chapter by chapter, Ne gives me what I will need next, continually, all the way to the end, sometimes in short term flashes and sometimes in longer term "aha, that's what this character is doing" motivations.
> 
> Writing is fun, especially when you're observing HOW you write.


Oh that’s awesome! I love getting to compare technique. Finding differences or similarities that are more reflective of brain wiring than learned technique is absolutely fascination.


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## ENFPurpleKitti (Mar 20, 2017)

angelcat said:


> For me, in writing, Ne sees what's going on and how it's threading together throughout the entire process, even though I don't know how it will all end. It's almost like, chapter by chapter, Ne gives me what I will need next, continually, all the way to the end, sometimes in short term flashes and sometimes in longer term "aha, that's what this character is doing" motivations.
> 
> Writing is fun, especially when you're observing HOW you write.


That is exactly how it goes for me. I just constantly throw things in, thinking, this might be useful later, then later I discover it was so revolutionary to my plot and pulled so many things together neatly. I love my process. ^_^


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## Gossamerlike (Nov 11, 2018)

A little background, since I am new here. 

I am currently doing a final edit on a novel I got the rights back to on a book I published in 2002. (I didn't publish the second book until last year and with all that time between publications I am finally giving these books the attention they deserve with second editions before I finish the trilogy.) In fact, I just took a break after making editing changes in chapter ten to come here before I go back to work on a short story in another book series.

I do not like the concept of forcing anything in life - especially something emotional, personal, or important. If you write to prove something, I can sort of see why...but I feel like writing is something that either comes naturally, or you simply aren't meant to be a writer - which isn't good or bad. 

I don't write in a lost, dreamy-eyed, romantic way. I'm focused. I write because I love it - I have to do it for my soul - my true bliss, and when I step away, I come right back to it. A magnetic sense, I suppose. I was born to write - to tell stories of the imagination. I am passionate about my characters and their adventures. I go there with them because my world lights up when I do!

I let it all just flow naturally, and then make edits so the whole thing feels as fluid as my original intention.

Now that I am completely devoted to my bliss, I am learning to trust that process. To just let it happen. Not easy for me, but it is getting easier.

Widblownhair and angelcat - I totally get your process. It is like exploring a cave. And when it is all mapped out and there's no more to explore... it is on to the next one!


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Welcome @gossimerlike. It will be cool to hear from you and how your writing is going.


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## Gossamerlike (Nov 11, 2018)

Llyralen said:


> Welcome @gossimerlike. It will be cool to hear from you and how your writing is going.


Thank you! I wrote today until I couldn't tell if it was making any sense! (which is a good time to quit and see how it looks tomorrow) The writing is going better after a few weeks of...difficulty - you know, swearing, feeling like no one understands, thoughts of stabbing myself to end it all - the life of a poet... *laughs* But this rewrite of The Dreamer is going great and should be available by the end of the year at all on-line bookstores.

I had a learning experience with publishers and now I am my own boss. As both a graphic designer and writer, I got this.

On a side note, one of my biggest issues is forgetting that the shit I write is FUN! 'It doesn't have to be perfect to be great.' A current saying of mine that helps.


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## Gossamerlike (Nov 11, 2018)

Just finished the editing changes in chapter 12 (of 18). Feels good to be back on track and should have an updated galley on the way next week!


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

@gossimerlike. I’d like to hear about your experiences with publishers too. That’s exciting about your book!


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## Belledonna (Mar 7, 2018)

Can I join??


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Belledonna said:


> Can I join??


Please do, dear.


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## Gossamerlike (Nov 11, 2018)

Llyralen said:


> @gossimerlike. I’d like to hear about your experiences with publishers too. That’s exciting about your book!


I don't know a lot. But I know that it isn't something I want to pursue ever again. Instead of rejection slips, horrible contracts, and unneeded deadlines, I am going to continue to be my own publisher until circumstances change. It did pay to have some experience with how they work, but only to show that they do almost nothing and take most of the $$$. Seems to be the case in most artistic fields - where companies take advantage of artists.

Is there anything specific you would like to know?


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## 68097 (Nov 20, 2013)

I'm about 11 chapters into a novel, and there's always a point near the end where I think this is a total mess, it's never going to stitch itself all together -- and it always does, but at the moment of crisis I start panicking and trying to figure out how to ... well, wrap it up. Even though I know darn well it will wrap itself up. LOL

That being said -- do you ever go back and read some of your older stuff and realize... "dang, this is good"? I kind of, once I'm away from something for awhile, assume it was rubbish. And then I go back and read it and think, "You know, my technique has improved a lot, and I'm now better at [insert thing here] but the bones of this story is actually... great."

It helps remind me, in a way, that I've done this before successfully and I should stop freaking out about chapter 12, coz it'll all be fine. And if it's not, that's what rewriting is for.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

angelcat said:


> I'm about 11 chapters into a novel, and there's always a point near the end where I think this is a total mess, it's never going to stitch itself all together -- and it always does, but at the moment of crisis I start panicking and trying to figure out how to ... well, wrap it up. Even though I know darn well it will wrap itself up. LOL
> 
> That being said -- do you ever go back and read some of your older stuff and realize... "dang, this is good"? I kind of, once I'm away from something for awhile, assume it was rubbish. And then I go back and read it and think, "You know, my technique has improved a lot, and I'm now better at [insert thing here] but the bones of this story is actually... great."
> 
> It helps remind me, in a way, that I've done this before successfully and I should stop freaking out about chapter 12, coz it'll all be fine. And if it's not, that's what rewriting is for.


I found something I’d forgotten completely about last month and it’s awesome when it feels like something you haven’t read before, but then this “kind of familiar” feeling comes in and I’m like, “I actually like this!” And then I bombard someone else to read it and then I need to actually finish it..... 
But... but I could have said what you just did and it is so awesome fun and comforting too.... May it always happen that way for us, hun. .

Oh, also I don’t remember plot lines worth a darn so a lot of old episodes of Malcom in the Middle seem fresh to me and my kids were always crazy annoyed when I said, “Oh, I don’t think I’ve ever seen this one.” 
“Mom, we watched it last week”. 
But for some reason this week they’ve started to envy me for it and talk cute about me with it. LOL.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Gossamerlike said:


> I don't know a lot. But I know that it isn't something I want to pursue ever again. Instead of rejection slips, horrible contracts, and unneeded deadlines, I am going to continue to be my own publisher until circumstances change. It did pay to have some experience with how they work, but only to show that they do almost nothing and take most of the $$$. Seems to be the case in most artistic fields - where companies take advantage of artists.
> 
> Is there anything specific you would like to know?


How do you get your book name out there? My husband's 1st book is going to be ready pretty soon...


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## Gossamerlike (Nov 11, 2018)

angelcat said:


> I'm about 11 chapters into a novel, and there's always a point near the end where I think this is a total mess, it's never going to stitch itself all together -- and it always does, but at the moment of crisis I start panicking and trying to figure out how to ... well, wrap it up. Even though I know darn well it will wrap itself up. LOL
> 
> That being said -- do you ever go back and read some of your older stuff and realize... "dang, this is good"? I kind of, once I'm away from something for awhile, assume it was rubbish. And then I go back and read it and think, "You know, my technique has improved a lot, and I'm now better at [insert thing here] but the bones of this story is actually... great."
> 
> It helps remind me, in a way, that I've done this before successfully and I should stop freaking out about chapter 12, coz it'll all be fine. And if it's not, that's what rewriting is for.


Yep. I do this all the time. I am so happy that I can now just walk over to a bookshelf, pull off one of my books, and read a few pages. Then I just nod and say, "This shit is good." And then off I go to write some more!

When I am on my third or fourth edit/draft - THAT is when I am at my worst. I've noticed in the last few days that everything I do is better if I am working on one or two novels and a few short stories at the same time. I can bounce around from day to day so there is always something fresh in my head. Helps take the "perfectionist" attitude away from that fourth edit.


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## Gossamerlike (Nov 11, 2018)

Llyralen said:


> I found something I’d forgotten completely about last month and it’s awesome when it feels like something you haven’t read before, but then this “kind of familiar” feeling comes in and I’m like, “I actually like this!” And then I bombard someone else to read it and then I need to actually finish it.....
> But... but I could have said what you just did and it is so awesome fun and comforting too.... May it always happen that way for us, hun. .
> 
> Oh, also I don’t remember plot lines worth a darn so a lot of old episodes of Malcom in the Middle seem fresh to me and my kids were always crazy annoyed when I said, “Oh, I don’t think I’ve ever seen this one.”
> ...


My partner is an ENFP and you guys sound quite similar! :tongue:


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## Gossamerlike (Nov 11, 2018)

Llyralen said:


> How do you get your book name out there? My husband's 1st book is going to be ready pretty soon...


Remember that I am just one guy with a specific set of experiences. And I also think that ALL THINGS are energy and create their own energy fields - including books.

My first novel was published in 2002 and I paid a publisher to print it. I learned never to do this again, so I guess it was a learning experience and not the nightmare my brain tells me it was. But, it was really hard on me for 16 years with extreme stress that caused some serious damage - until the company went out of business a couple years ago and the publisher passed away. I pounded the pavement for it - did readings at schools, libraries, cons and all that for about ten years. I ended up spending thousands of dollars and now I have COMPLETELY re-written the book so all that work since 2001 lead me to here - with a book I think is one of the best books ever written. You can shout from the rooftops, get reviews, do readings, and end up where I am. You can also write a book, hand it to a couple of people, and one of them spreads your book like wildfire. You can look up my name and gets hits for my work, but getting sales hasn't been great. I'm doing my best to not dwell on that right now for a few different reasons.

First, I am focusing on publishing the best stories I am capable of.
Second, I think that the "invisible hands" that Joseph Campbell talks about in "The Power of Myth" will guide me and the sales will take off when the time is right.
Third, I am recovering from stage four burnout and learning how to live a relaxed life and trust the process.

Is your husband going through a specific publisher?


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Gossamerlike said:


> Remember that I am just one guy with a specific set of experiences. And I also think that ALL THINGS are energy and create their own energy fields - including books.
> 
> My first novel was published in 2002 and I paid a publisher to print it. I learned never to do this again, so I guess it was a learning experience and not the nightmare my brain tells me it was. But, it was really hard on me for 16 years with extreme stress that caused some serious damage - until the company went out of business a couple years ago and the publisher passed away. I pounded the pavement for it - did readings at schools, libraries, cons and all that for about ten years. I ended up spending thousands of dollars and now I have COMPLETELY re-written the book so all that work since 2001 lead me to here - with a book I think is one of the best books ever written. You can shout from the rooftops, get reviews, do readings, and end up where I am. You can also write a book, hand it to a couple of people, and one of them spreads your book like wildfire. You can look up my name and gets hits for my work, but getting sales hasn't been great. I'm doing my best to not dwell on that right now for a few different reasons.
> 
> ...


He has just focused on finishing it which is hard enough for him (and harder for me in my writing— I usually peder out after the first chapter or so.). 

Check out my signature, I’m a fellow “The Power of Myth” lover. Joseph Campbell is supposedly an ENFP too.  or usually listed as such, but I like to think so. 

He does want to send it to publishers. But if rejected or we don’t find a good literary agent, then I guess online publishing is what we will do. It’s hard to know.,, does Goodreads work for online books? I can imagine it being difficult to get the word out.


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## Aizar (Mar 21, 2011)

Llyralen said:


> --New Topic--
> 
> I have an idea that each type probably gets their inspiration differently and I'd like to hear what that is like.
> 
> ...


Hm. I get an idea for a scene, usually an emotional one, and often (not always) an emotion I'm feeling and want a colorful outlet for. I can see it playing like a movie in my head, and I just write what I see. The text takes on a rhythm like music and it just "feels" right. Then more builds off the scene, little mentions here or there of possible side stories, I think "what if the character did this or this or that?" and it just keeps going, until there's little strings attached everywhere, that each then keep going down a rabbit hole if I follow them.

A second pass then starts tying the strings together and knotting others off. That's the most frustrating part, getting everything to "fit" just right. Sometimes makes me wonder if I'm an actually INTP with Ne and Ti.

It's much harder to write stories on demand, because I can't always recreate that emotional "feel", and to me at least, if the feel isn't there, the piece is flat, mechanical, boring, and/or disjointed. Even months later (to truly judge the quality of the piece I have to wait months to re-read it), those pieces come out awful.

At other times, when writing meditative pieces, I start with a detail. Like I have this one character thinking about his life, with the start of the scene focusing on the watchman the character can hear making his rounds on the street outside. He thinks about the stacato of the footsteps, what the watchman is feeling, what the watchman is seeing, graduating to the lives of the people in the houses the watchman passes, to eventually the character's own thoughts about those people and their interactions in his life, and so on. I'm not sure if those scenes make for good, tight stories, though. It's often just as much for me to meditate on and get my thoughts in an order, through the use of the character as a proxy to give me a new perspective on things.

It also works well in action scenes, though, the focus on the sensory details and feelings. I get bogged down when authors try to write out combat scenes with "and then he tamped down his left foot and pivoted and threw a punch with his right arm...", but if it turns into... "his foot shifted. He felt the stability through the sole of his boot, heard the crunch of the gravel under his heel. Then came the crunch of his opponent, the sudden jarring up his knuckles and wrist, as he knocked the other man to the ground..." I'm focusing on the feels and the experiences, not the technical stuff. I get mixed up with left and right in real life with my own two hands up front of me, so tell me to picture it in a book, and it's just a bunch of text to glance through until I get to the meaty part again.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

@Aizar thank you for replying! It's nice to hear how it unfolds for you and I especially liked and identified with the "little strings everywhere". =) I like just this that you wrote! Make sure to keep writing!


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

How you guys use any specific methods when you are writing from the perspective of the opposite gender than you? I wonder how I do writing "as a man". I haven't often. My husband writes very real, strong women. There's nothing more annoying to me than when I'm into a book but the women aren't written well-- might as well be cardboard cut-outs--- and I don't want to do the same to men! 

Any ideas on the subject? I bet a lot of you are very good at this.


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## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

Any tips for writing romance/angst/drama fiction? And tips for writing about stuff like abductions/murder/rape etc?


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## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

Yes I have plenty of stories in my head but putting them onto paper is a task in itself. Plus I get bored with writing quite quickly.


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## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

Maybe write these women in a way you would write about yourself or other women/girls you know.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Hiya. There's some info in this thread... the "Writing Excuses" podcast has some episodes on specific areas like you’re asking. I believe there is one where a martial artist talks about writing fight scenes, for instance. 

Everyone... I find this series of videos super helpful for writing!


Especially this glimpse into the CIA!!!


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Thread bump! 

Is anyone in the middle of writing something that needs a brainstorm? 

Actually... I wouldn’t mind getting input on one of mine... @burningsoul You?


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## burningsoul (Jun 23, 2012)

The narrative takes place across four years at a prestigious engineering college. The college has a deeply misogynistic culture. There are many characters with small plot lines. For instance, Ajit and Deepak are rivals in hostel politics. Themes of friendship and betrayal are in action here. Themes of alienation also exist. Some students struggle with existential dilemma as well.

At the heart, however, the story is about two friends, Rajesh and Subhash. Both feel deeply discouraged by the culture and the people. Rajesh takes on a rebellious attitude while Subhash takes on a receptive attitude towards the people around him. Rajesh is reclusive with an intense focus. Subhash is social at large but he is out of touch with his own self.

Rajesh is a flat arc character, who does not change. He challenges professors, college politics, the system, job placement and the people around him, sometimes in ethical and sometimes in unethical ways. 

Subhash is deeply disillusioned. He wants to write. However his belief in ideas around originality and uniqueness stop him from exploring writers and the craft of writing. He does not believe there is any such thing as craft to writing. At a deeper level his resistance to learning the craft comes from his pessimism that rose out of the disappointment of engineering.

As Rajesh clashes with the system, Subhash tries to stop him. At times Rajesh inspires him as well. But never to an extent that Subhash would take a leap of faith. Until the end where Subhash finds clarity in himself that he needs to redeem himself.

Let's discuss Subhash's character. We were all of us there at one point in life.


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## burningsoul (Jun 23, 2012)

Eren Jaegerbomb said:


> Yes I have plenty of stories in my head but putting them onto paper is a task in itself. Plus I get bored with writing quite quickly.


If you are not in love with words, the sound, the feel of words, it'd be hard to write anything. Words have a physical reality to them. Ideas without words do not really amount to anything, do they?


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## burningsoul (Jun 23, 2012)

Llyralen said:


> How you guys use any specific methods when you are writing from the perspective of the opposite gender than you? I wonder how I do writing "as a man". I haven't often. My husband writes very real, strong women. There's nothing more annoying to me than when I'm into a book but the women aren't written well-- might as well be cardboard cut-outs--- and I don't want to do the same to men!
> 
> Any ideas on the subject? I bet a lot of you are very good at this.


Write about the men you really admire. It shouldn't be hard. Also, what is your process of writing a character? How do you get your head around a character that this person, with this name, is a real character and not a made up one? I am curious because I do not differentiate between men and women character. You must be seeing something more to the man-woman dimension of human existence than I do, I suppose. I am curious what it is.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

burningsoul said:


> Write about the men you really admire. It shouldn't be hard. Also, what is your process of writing a character? How do you get your head around a character that this person, with this name, is a real character and not a made up one? I am curious because I do not differentiate between men and women character. You must be seeing something more to the man-woman dimension of human existence than I do, I suppose. I am curious what it is.


I write in first person usually. The last time I wrote a man my husband said to me on page 1 “Most guys wouldn’t use that word, it sounds effeminate.” So I guess he would correct me if needed. The word was “odd” which I guess if a girl uses it, it seems kind of antiquated, so that problem is likely my tendency to use slightly antiquated words until I want a really down to earth feel to something. Then I’d write slang. 

But it is true that many B-rated male authors have troubles writing women. I remember watching a Dwayne Johnson movie a few years ago and when the character names were scrolling at the end it read something like “Pete Norling, Jessica, Frank Jones, sexy girl 1, Thomas Dearden, sexy girl 2, Robert Rubio, Girl 1, Girl 2. Girl 3. “ Only 1 girl got a first name in that movie. That’s an example. But sometimes I will be reading through a book and the character definition is good, many male characters have interesting plots and motivations and the girls they meet might as well be “the blonde one” and “the brunette one”. Basically outer descriptions of them is all we’ve got and for the place that they fill in the story that’s all we needed, if that. You get me? When you know where to look for misogyny then it’s right there— and basically everywhere. 

Good writers don’t usually have that problem. Sometimes. I personally think it was intended in The Forsyte Saga is that you HAD to realize a woman’s humanity who you actually understood nothing about. I felt like it was a test. Basically, can you realize that you’re doing something wrong to someone even when you do not identify with them? But Virginia Wolfe ran him into the ground for it, saying she did not hear the woman’s voice.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

burningsoul said:


> The narrative takes place across four years at a prestigious engineering college. The college has a deeply misogynistic culture. There are many characters with small plot lines. For instance, Ajit and Deepak are rivals in hostel politics. Themes of friendship and betrayal are in action here. Themes of alienation also exist. Some students struggle with existential dilemma as well.
> 
> At the heart, however, the story is about two friends, Rajesh and Subhash. Both feel deeply discouraged by the culture and the people. Rajesh takes on a rebellious attitude while Subhash takes on a receptive attitude towards the people around him. Rajesh is reclusive with an intense focus. Subhash is social at large but he is out of touch with his own self.
> 
> ...




Interesting, I read this after I wrote the above on misogyny. So let me ask you to step back for a second. What are you hoping to teach your audience? Is your book anti-misogynistic at its core? Do you show the impact of this culture on women characters? Do you show Subhash allowing things that are dangerous to women to happen? How does Rajesh push back against this culture? Does anything he does actually help any women? Are the impacts of this shown through any women characters. What is it that you want to show? What does one character do right and the other wrong? Is their resistance really to the misogyny of the culture or to other points you are more interested in? Is there consistency between Subhash’s refusal to learn from others and his attitude to people around him? Does he just go along with people he meets but then won’t learn from literature? I think you have some decisions to make about what you’d like the characters to learn.


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## burningsoul (Jun 23, 2012)

Llyralen said:


> I write in first person usually. The last time I wrote a man my husband said to me on page 1 “Most guys wouldn’t use that word, it sounds effeminate.” So I guess he would correct me if needed. The word was “odd” which I guess if a girl uses it, it seems kind of antiquated, so that problem is likely my tendency to use slightly antiquated words until I want a really down to earth feel to something. Then I’d write slang.


Whenever I make a mistake, of any kind, I remember what James Joyce said - Genius makes no mistakes. Mistakes are the portals of self-discovery. I find that same thing echoed in Neil Gaiman's words as well. So, whenever you make a mistake rejoice! Your mistakes are the most original creations of yours. Talking about an effeminate and a slang using character, why not write those too. Write a man who uses much feminine vocabulary. I think your man will also enjoy reading this character. You should also write a slang speaking character while you are at it. Most other characters of your will fall somewhere in between the two.



> But it is true that many B-rated male authors have troubles writing women. I remember watching a Dwayne Johnson movie a few years ago and when the character names were scrolling at the end it read something like “Pete Norling, Jessica, Frank Jones, sexy girl 1, Thomas Dearden, sexy girl 2, Robert Rubio, Girl 1, Girl 2. Girl 3. “ Only 1 girl got a first name in that movie. That’s an example. But sometimes I will be reading through a book and the character definition is good, many male characters have interesting plots and motivations and the girls they meet might as well be “the blonde one” and “the brunette one”. Basically outer descriptions of them is all we’ve got and for the place that they fill in the story that’s all we needed, if that. You get me? When you know where to look for misogyny then it’s right there— and basically everywhere.
> 
> Good writers don’t usually have that problem. Sometimes. I personally think it was intended in The Forsyte Saga is that you HAD to realize a woman’s humanity who you actually understood nothing about. I felt like it was a test. Basically, can you realize that you’re doing something wrong to someone even when you do not identify with them? But Virginia Wolfe ran him into the ground for it, saying she did not hear the woman’s voice.


For the Dwayne Johnson movie I think all characters have very bad characterization. There would be extremely few men out there who would be able to relate with a character Dwayne Johnson plays.  I haven't read The Forsyte Saga to comment. But if Woolf objected to it, I suppose something else must be amiss. I hold Virginia Woolf virtually in reverence. But I might be willing to disagree with her in this case. You have read the series. How was it?


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

burningsoul said:


> Whenever I make a mistake, of any kind, I remember what James Joyce said - Genius makes no mistakes. Mistakes are the portals of self-discovery. I find that same thing echoed in Neil Gaiman's words as well. So, whenever you make a mistake rejoice! Your mistakes are the most original creations of yours. Talking about an effeminate and a slang using character, why not write those too. Write a man who uses much feminine vocabulary. I think your man will also enjoy reading this character. You should also write a slang speaking character while you are at it. Most other characters of your will fall somewhere in between the two.
> 
> 
> 
> For the Dwayne Johnson movie I think all characters have very bad characterization. There would be extremely few men out there who would be able to relate with a character Dwayne Johnson plays.  I haven't read The Forsyte Saga to comment. But if Woolf objected to it, I suppose something else must be amiss. I hold Virginia Woolf virtually in reverence. But I might be willing to disagree with her in this case. You have read the series. How was it?


The Forsyte Saga is mostly a fantastic work that did a great deal of good at its time, I believe especially to further the compassion for people still under colonial British rule. The character I’m speaking of’s story is an allegory for how countries were being treated under colonialism. Basically should they be happy to be in a forced relationship? He does get weird about his villain in the end and wanted some redemption for him. 

I think because Virginia Wolfe was the only male-approved-of woman’s voice of her day about literature that anything she said about women got scrambled over by the men as their prime source of knowledge about a woman’s mind. I think it is very hard to have 1 speaker for women and I disagree with her. I also think her opinion sullied the author’s Nobel prize and I think he soundly deserved it. I think the Forsyte Saga should be read more. I would have disagreed with Virginia and we would have had a decent argument. I think the author felt like it wasn’t his place to speak for the woman. The main plot is about her, yet the story is basically never told from her point of view. It almost seemed like he thought it would be like playing someone in black-face. I do see it as a test. Stories about colonialism only get told from the victor’s side and can we learn to see and find compassion for the victim when the story never comes from their point of view? I think it’s fascinating and I think she assumed it was not a deliberate choice on his part, but it seems to me that it obviously was. It is not easy to write a story from everyone else’s point of view and still you knew the author had the deepest sympathy for the woman character. I can imagine that at this time in history his way of doing this might not have seemed helpful in Virginia’s eyes. We needed more voice at the time, but.. I think he might have just been that conscious of not trying to speak for someone whose shoes he had not exactly been in and still teach others to try. 

Very true, Dwayne Johnson does not play realistic characters for men either, but look at those names. The writer cared about writing the men. The women might as well have been living props. 
I’m interested to hear what you’ll say about misogyny in your story. I didn’t realize when I started talking about it that there would be that component in your story.


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## burningsoul (Jun 23, 2012)

Llyralen said:


> Interesting, I read this after I wrote the above on misogyny. So let me ask you to step back for a second. What are you hoping to teach your audience?


What I hope to teach the audience is that all that glitters is not gold - when it comes to career in engineering. It is a terrifying craze in the country and perhaps in the world at large as well. The question is - how to bring about the lesson.



> Is your book anti-misogynistic at its core? Do you show the impact of this culture on women characters?


No. there are no woman characters in this one.



> Do you show Subhash allowing things that are dangerous to women to happen? How does Rajesh push back against this culture?


Initially it was a long stretched plot spanning a long time. But then I realize I have been too badly influenced by David Mamet already and I like to start my stories right in the middle of the action rather than building and developing stories to a point first. And I am writing film. The time is the first semester of the third year, the night before some exam. In the opening sequence, three friendships fall apart. In the midst of this, Subhash and Rajesh go out for tea to a stall near their hostel. They are friends. They talk about events around leading to dramatic falling apart of friendships in the campus at large. Subhash also brings up existential question in a light way. My experiment here is can I give these two characters two distinct voices. Sitting at the stall, Subhash asks Rajesh what is new with him. Has he planned to harass some other professor anytime soon? Rajesh says nonchalantly something big is just round the corner. Rajesh turns the discussion to Subhash's interest in writing. Subhash says he doesn't want to read books. Books will corrupt his 'original voice'. Subhash also says what is the purpose of writing really. The world is the way it is. What can one person, one book, or one writer really do? If you really think that way then your existential question is a farce. Subhash agrees that it is. Everything about us all is just farce. They walk a little in silence. Subhash shares a plot he has been working on. (I can break the fourth wall and foreshadow the second act here. I want to do that. I haven't really planned it yet.) But he doesn't know the purpose to it. "I can write drama but it always fizzles out in the last act. Like most films."

Towards the end of the semester, in a departmental meeting, Rajesh takes on a bunch of professors questioning every single column of the edifice of their prestigious institution. Generally professors would ignore such a student. But Rajesh has acquired some notoriety for this. Prof. Khatri is prepared for him. There is a face off between the two at the end of which the professor threatens Rajesh with suspension. Rajesh is not deterred. He smirks at the suspension and provokes the professor further. Prof. Khatri declares that he is terminated from the college. Rajesh takes out some documents from his bag. These are proof that all the research that has taken place in the department for last 3 years has been either blatantly plagiarized or copied in a twisted way. You terminate me, I will send these documents to the department of education, government of India. And to the press. A fright runs through the professors present and it shows on their faces.

Cut to the third scene. Night time, Subhash walks to the tea stall alone. He reminisces things Rajesh had said to him. People say he has been terminated. He had some documents to prove some research fraud. But nobody knows where he went afterwards. People call him a psycho. As he returns to his room, he finds an email in his inbox. It is from Rajesh. It reads - I took me two years to gather those documents. The work is called investigative journalism. I am going to do that. I will send the documents to the press once I make sure that the news will not be thrown in the corner without use. The world is not a meaningless place my friend and stories can have meaningful ends too. Leave that world and all its forced learning. Come to my office. It's in Connaught Place. A person's work should be relevant to the society. Only then can there be a sense of duty. Otherwise there is mere existential crisis.

The next morning, Subhash gets ready, packs his stuff and leaves for his friend.



> Does anything he does actually help any women? Are the impacts of this shown through any women characters. What is it that you want to show? What does one character do right and the other wrong? Is their resistance really to the misogyny of the culture or to other points you are more interested in? Is there consistency between Subhash’s refusal to learn from others and his attitude to people around him? Does he just go along with people he meets but then won’t learn from literature? I think you have some decisions to make about what you’d like the characters to learn.


The misogyny part was an initial remark. The real challenge is to bring credible voices to Rajesh and Subhash and to create an entire college universe through only conversations between the two. Misogyny runs as an undercurrent in Subhash's language. Deep down even he has aversion to it. But his language has been corrupted in such a way that there is much he ends up allowing in his words and even his understanding.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

@burningsoul. There is no unusual rush to engineering fields in the USA, no more than usual anyway. Will we be left out? Likely. 

It sounds like the strongest impact of what is happening with the plot is to show that journalism and the written word and idealism can and does make an impact. You can use the medium of current trends in engineering to do so. Rajesh should have to stand up for something. What is he challenging his teacher about? Is he just being challenging as a point of pride or is there something he really wants to change? Showing correction in his field.. does he deeply care about this corruption? Does it extend to other areas of what is going on in the country? What does he think should change? 

What does Rajesh as a more mentor figure want to see from Subhash? It sounds like he thinks Subhash’s writing shows promise? What else does he see in Subhash? Yeah.. it’s Subhash’s character that I think you’ll need to work on... he’s your main character? Just went through change to support his friend? Does he have idealism but that he has just decided doesn’t matter? That he shouldn’t fight for it? If so... I’d make him a deeply idealistic soul that Rajesh SEES in his friend and have him do some quiet acts of good service but need to learn to stand up to the establishment and the conflict could all be about his reluctance to stand up to his parents, the school, etc. what do you think?


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

@burningsoul. There is no unusual rush to engineering fields in the USA, no more than usual anyway. Will we be left out? Likely. 

It sounds like the strongest impact of what is happening with the plot is to show that journalism and the written word and idealism can and does make an impact. You can use the medium of current trends in engineering to do so. Rajesh should have to stand up for something. What is he challenging his teacher about? Is he just being challenging as a point of pride or is there something he really wants to change? Showing correction in his field.. does he deeply care about this corruption? Does it extend to other areas of what is going on in the country? What does he think should change? 

What does Rajesh as a more mentor figure want to see from Subhash? It sounds like he thinks Subhash’s writing shows promise? What else does he see in Subhash? Yeah.. it’s Subhash’s character that I think you’ll need to work on... he’s your main character? Just went through change to support his friend? Does he have idealism but that he has just decided doesn’t matter? That he shouldn’t fight for it? If so... I’d make him a deeply idealistic soul that Rajesh SEES in his friend and have him do some quiet acts of good service but need to learn to stand up to the establishment and the conflict could all be about his reluctance to stand up to his parents, the school, etc. what do you think?


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## burningsoul (Jun 23, 2012)

Llyralen said:


> I think because Virginia Wolfe was the only male-approved-of woman’s voice of her day about literature that anything she said about women got scrambled over by the men as their prime source of knowledge about a woman’s mind. I think it is very hard to have 1 speaker for women and I disagree with her. I also think her opinion sullied the author’s Nobel prize and I think he soundly deserved it. I think the Forsyte Saga should be read more. I would have disagreed with Virginia and we would have had a decent argument. I think the author felt like it wasn’t his place to speak for the woman. The main plot is about her, yet the story is basically never told from her point of view. It almost seemed like he thought it would be like playing someone in black-face. I do see it as a test. Stories about colonialism only get told from the victor’s side and can we learn to see and find compassion for the victim when the story never comes from their point of view? I think it’s fascinating and I think she assumed it was not a deliberate choice on his part, but it seems to me that it obviously was. It is not easy to write a story from everyone else’s point of view and still you knew the author had the deepest sympathy for the woman character. I can imagine that at this time in history his way of doing this might not have seemed helpful in Virginia’s eyes. We needed more voice at the time, but.. I think he might have just been that conscious of not trying to speak for someone whose shoes he had not exactly been in and still teach others to try.


It slipped your mind and it slipped my mind as well. Sitting here idle at my desk, I recalled something bothered me about your post here. I am one of the colonial subjects that Galsworthy talked about or at least my ancestors were. It made me curious because back in the days of studying literature post-colonialism and post-colonial theory used to be quite a passionate interest of mine. I also recalled that while we read criticisms of authors like Joseph Conrad and Rudyard Kipling, the name Galsworthy never turned up. Then I saw that he had won the Nobel prize as well, which is a considerable feat. But then, is it?

Without really experiencing the plight of the colonized people how well can a writer write about the exploitation? I wonder. There are people suffering and dying from corona virus out there right now, the lot poorer than me. Can I really write about them sitting comfortably right here? I generally do not go this route to find out about a writer but I googled the reception of Galsworthy's work here. His writing has been characterized by a sentimental indulgence in his characters. It would definitely suit a white audience to read about colonization in a novel, sympathize a little with the people who are nowhere present around them, get to blame the world around them a bit and then get on with their lives as if colonization was little more than fiction.

At this point, I guess I can understand why Virginia Woolf tried to drive him into the ground as you put it. If he exploited colonial subjects to fill in his characters, he might as well have done the same with his women characters as well. And that is why Woolf must have felt a bitter disagreement with him that his women characters do not sound like women characters at all. You can deny Virginia Woolf many things but earnestness is something you cannot deny her. It is a travesty indeed that she did not get the Nobel prize. But then from time to time I find out about others who did and I feel if nothing can stand beyond mistake in this world, then how come the Nobel prizes be fault-free.

If one wants to read about the colonial exploitation, the real authors to read would be Chinua Achebe, N'gugi Wa Thiongo even Rushdie for that matter. I haven't gotten to read the others. And of course, Edward Said's essay on Orientalism is not to be missed. That if you are interested.

By the way, you never responded to the visitor message I posted on your profile the other day. I wonder what happened there.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

I did not forget where you live when I was writing, and I’m saying the opposite. I’m saying Virginia Woolf wanted him to write from the victim’s perspective, but I believe he felt that he could not assume to. He took great pains to show her story but not write from her perspective and Yet to demand his readers to feel sympathy anyway for someone whose emotions were not known to them. He wanted the perpetrators to realize their follies— even without truly understanding what it was like to be in the victim’s shoes. It would seem to.me that he was ahead of his time. I see Virginia’s point. As I tell it, she had fought hard to have a voice in this world. She wanted people to better understand the impact of what they do. She wanted people to hear the victim’s voice. However, I believe he didn’t feel that he could possibly supply it accurately. But he still wanted perpetrators to develop sympathy. It’s very interesting. Can you have compassion when you don’t understand someone’s plight? This is more how we view causes that we haven’t experienced now in the USA which is why white actors no longer try to play minorities— but it used to be totally acceptable in this country. Also writers often don’t write about plights that are not about their ethnic background... although to some degree it’s a shame to be limited to your own experiences, and I don’t know if writers are exactly limited in the same way yet. I think I would take strong criticism if I wanted to write about, say, Cherokee genicide, since I’m not American Indian/Native American... but I also suppose it would be accepted by some if well done and there are plenty of stories that need and needed a voice... a documentary would be better accepted. It’s interesting, our views of how to bring societal problems to the table changes with society as the majority society accept or reject their own actions as wrong doing.


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## burningsoul (Jun 23, 2012)

I don't know how deeply you see writing as political action. I do. I feel all literature is at once political manifesto. Assume the following scenario - one community oppresses another. Now someone from the oppressor community starts voicing opinions that the oppressed community needs compassion. What does it do? It gives platform for the oppressors to reject the idea that oppression is going on. Because it is a call for compassion it will not be fierce enough. The need is not of compassion but of justice. And only a person who has been oppressed had the right to ask for justice. Nobody should encroach that space that fundamentally belongs to the oppressed. Compassion is quite useless in the context of colonialism. Virginia Woolf's specific disagreement might not stand this thesis but I want to categorically assert here that compassion for the oppressed by someone in the oppressor class does not make an iota of a difference.

Point in case - British war effort in WW2 was heavily sustained by both manpower and resources from India. No matter how much the British population feels compassion for the man-made famine their government caused in India in 1940s, it would not make the British government pay India back what it looted from the country. The reality of compassion is not much more than a feel good emotion. The actual thing that would work is justice. And that is a much harder idea to wrap one's head around.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

@burningsoul. Sorry to get back to you late, I hope you didn’t think I disagree with you. I agree. I do realize justice is key. Justice is the hardest part, though. It’s the price most perpetrator groups won’t commit to. Giving back land that was taken and then used? Giving back livelihoods and incomes? And how would justice come about? Willingly? By force? If willingly, then what we talked about before (compassion/understanding) is likely an essential step, penitence moving to compensation and atonement. If given unwillingly, taken back by force by the victim, then where does the violence end? 

There is some precedent for people realizing what they’ve done to others and atoning— not enough— but I find what i find fascinating. For instance, watching Germany hamper feelings of national pride (they even took historical heros like Arminius out of their history books for a bit) and rejecting leadership positions in the EU. Meanwhile America shrugs about the genocide of Native Americans and begrudgingly keeps some food and shelter programs for Indian Reservations that are managed by our military still. Palestine and Israel I bet we could discuss for hours. I know less about how all of this is viewed in India and Pakistan. I heather people take personal responsibility to clean up the playground that their parents ruined but that they now rule... well... it’s interesting. It’s interesting seeing some people take blame and do what they can to atone and others not and I think the difference is still if there are enough people to make you take responsibility or not. Yeah, there’s a lot to talk about here.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

I was helping my INFP husband outline his book now that it’s almost all written to show him just the few places I thought would take it from good to great... and I kind of came up with a system. 

It is a grid. I wrote each character’s name from top to bottom leaving plenty of room between each character. I then wrote the emotional and learning arch (their dynamics?) going from left to right, also giving at least an inch to each word. I wrote the scenes that taught them each of these things and I draw lines in between the character scenes to show which ones were connected, showing that the characters had learned these together and also the reader can be written down just like a character showing what the overall effects the reader will learn. My husband had been having a hard time seeing these links and when he had thought of each character he felt like it was all disjointed. By writing it this way you basically get a map of the whole effect of the book on the reader over time until the end of the book. The parts that needed scenes then became obvious. 
I don’t know. It worked! He said there were a lot of things that I tied together that he didn’t realize he had tied together. I said “Your subconscious knew!


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## burningsoul (Jun 23, 2012)

Llyralen said:


> Sorry to get back to you late, I hope you didn’t think I disagree with you. I agree. I do realize justice is key. Justice is the hardest part, though. It’s the price most perpetrator groups won’t commit to. Giving back land that was taken and then used? Giving back livelihoods and incomes? And how would justice come about? Willingly? By force? If willingly, then what we talked about before (compassion/understanding) is likely an essential step, penitence moving to compensation and atonement. If given unwillingly, taken back by force by the victim, then where does the violence end?


I don't think willing acceptance of fault would happen. I do not have that kind of faith in people who are dedicated to systems. Even if someone, after substantial effort, convinces one or a few individuals to agree that exploitation did take place, the entire system would work against these individuals and nothing would be accomplished. I am not asking that the return/compensation happen by force. I am saying that compensation/return should happen through law. That is why we have due processes.



> There is some precedent for people realizing what they’ve done to others and atoning— not enough— but I find what i find fascinating. For instance, watching Germany hamper feelings of national pride (they even took historical heros like Arminius out of their history books for a bit) and rejecting leadership positions in the EU.


I am not saying that good work is not happening or good and effective people have vanished. But human race is too keen on turning a blind eye to injustice. Watch the 2014 German film Phoenix on the subject of people who returned from the camps. Splendid work.



> Meanwhile America shrugs about the genocide of Native Americans and begrudgingly keeps some food and shelter programs for Indian Reservations that are managed by our military still.


I have been to Canada once. I saw how agonized the rehabilitated Indian in America is. The same is going on right now with the tribes in India. One of the horrors is that women with ********* features are automatically assumed prostitutes. Many do engage in prostitution. And I don't consider prostitution as an unethical profession. But many do. Especially down here. I remember a classmate complain to me that he was moving in a market area in Delhi with his girl friend and a passing guy commented to his friend that anyone can afford her for a couple hundred rupees.



> Palestine and Israel I bet we could discuss for hours.


Yes.



> I know less about how all of this is viewed in India and Pakistan. I hear the people take personal responsibility to clean up the playground that their parents ruined but that they now rule... well... it’s interesting. It’s interesting seeing some people take blame and do what they can to atone and others not and I think the difference is still if there are enough people to make you take responsibility or not. Yeah, there’s a lot to talk about here.


Civil awareness has risen a bit in recent times, yes. But passions are untamed in this country especially around justice. I was vindictive too in my twenties. It is infused in the culture. Very hard to grow out of. This culture cannot differentiate between communal vengeance and justice. I am not exaggerating. This is the ground reality down here. I look at the United States of America and I find idols people praising, aspiring towards. There are no popular role models in India. A woman named Irom Sharmila protested for social issues for a very long time in a place. She kept fast for 16 years. After seeing the government not move at all, she decided to contest elections herself. In a constituency of 30,000 voters she got only 90 votes. That's India for you.

By the way, I discarded the plot I talked about a few days back. Have started to work on the story from scratch once again.


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## poetrea13 (May 4, 2020)

Ok, seriously random question here for the INTJ writers, but here we go:

I'm writing a musical that's based on the story of Joseph from the Bible (Genesis 37- 46), but it's got some pretty big changes to the story right off the bat. It's going to be set in America in the 1940s and 50s, most likely, and I'm going to write it as a story with 12 sisters instead of 12 brothers. The more research I'm doing into this story, the more I am very sure that the main character, Jo, is an INTJ. So I have a few very specific questions on how you would/she would react to a few specific things in the story.--->

1.) How would you react if you were favored unfairly in your family (basically, if your mother or father saw you are the golden child that could do no wrong and you saw that this was happening at the detriment of your other siblings)?

2.) What are your thoughts about dreams? Do you think dreams have any basis in fact (i.e., do you think you could have a dream warning you ahead of time about something so you can prevent it)? How would you react if you had a dream, and that dream came true shortly?

3.) Are you naturally drawn to leadership positions, or do people naturally suggest or nominate you to lead?


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

poetrea13 said:


> Ok, seriously random question here for the INTJ writers, but here we go:
> 
> I'm writing a musical that's based on the story of Joseph from the Bible (Genesis 37- 46), but it's got some pretty big changes to the story right off the bat. It's going to be set in America in the 1940s and 50s, most likely, and I'm going to write it as a story with 12 sisters instead of 12 brothers. The more research I'm doing into this story, the more I am very sure that the main character, Jo, is an INTJ. So I have a few very specific questions on how you would/she would react to a few specific things in the story.--->
> 
> ...


Sounds interesting and I wish you success with this! 
I would cut/paste if I were you and make a new thread in the INTJ forum specifically on this since right now this thread has gotten less attention and even less INTJ attention lately. I would think their answers on their forum would be interesting.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

burningsoul said:


> I don't think willing acceptance of fault would happen. I do not have that kind of faith in people who are dedicated to systems. Even if someone, after substantial effort, convinces one or a few individuals to agree that exploitation did take place, the entire system would work against these individuals and nothing would be accomplished. I am not asking that the return/compensation happen by force. I am saying that compensation/return should happen through law. That is why we have due processes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why did you discard the plot? I would think it would be a good plot, especially if one of the strongest themes you would like to write about is the importance of journalism.


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## burningsoul (Jun 23, 2012)

Llyralen said:


> Why did you discard the plot? I would think it would be a good plot, especially if one of the strongest themes you would like to write about is the importance of journalism.


Subhash and Rajesh drift apart as they are very different characters. Subhash is deeply empathetic while Rajesh gets consumed by competition. Rajesh sees himself as a very competent person (He is INTJ).

A group of final year students have come together only recently to cheat the job placement cell. They wish to secure jobs for themselves despite lacking merit. They have all cheated their friends to improve their resumes across their four years of education.

Ajit is rather domineering. He likes to invade people's personal space. Saurabh is a mocking bird who laughs in a pretentious way. Sarika is a girl who is casually promiscuous and scheming. She knows that there are only six job openings available and their group consists of eight. Two will have to be kicked out. Another girl, Savita, is loyal to Ajit. Ajit and Savita tried intimacy once but it didn't work. They became fast friends to cover-up their mutual awkwardness. He covets Savita now and a flirtation game has been going on between them. Rajesh has already secured a job. But he is keen on this one. How many so far? Five. Then there is one who goes by the philosophy of 'cunning is the way of the world' and at once has a sensitivity to questions on his conscience. Lastly there are two scheming friends who also know about the lacking number of jobs and are concerned about it.

These students have gathered together to celebrate at a restaurant. At the same restaurant, on another table, Subhash is drinking alone. The bitterly competitive place has torn him down. A part of him drives him to write something, his response to the place, his life. Another part of him struggles with the futility of the exercise, futility of any action. What can anything change anyways? Least of all writing. He teaches for the exam that got him into this college. It gets him some money that he spends in drinking.

At the opening of the screenplay, Ajit has poked someone and two who know about the lack of job openings, Sarika and the conscientious one argue against him. Savita defends Ajit. Saurabh sings his mocking tune. Rajesh sits silently observing. Ajit notices Subhash drinking there and pulls him in to support his argument.

Subhash's opinions contrast with what Ajit expected. People find relief and laughter in Subhash's disagreement with Ajit. Ajit doesn't let go and interrogates Subhash about what his plans with his life are. Subhash has no plans. He laughs at the questions and Ajit gets offended. Slowly others also find his remarks offensive. Subhash wants to retreat and apologizes for his intervention. Ajit takes objection.

Somehow all this would link with the problem of missing jobs. Haven't imagined all of it. As the evening progresses, Subhash becomes increasingly inspired and animated. At one point, he reveals he wants to write. Ajit takes a dig at writing and writers and Subhash agrees with him and laughs. Others take objection to this. Someone says writing takes talent. The conscientious one joins the mocking one to tell Subhash has no talent. By this time, Sarika is allured by the writer in the making and she rises to his defense.

Plot development is intricate and will involve a lot more detail. I am sorry this is really a very rough sketch. I hope it makes sense.

As they all reach a point to celebrate Subhash, Rajesh objects to Subhash as an idea of a person. He says, look at him. He is just a loser with a big mouth. That's all. Subhash smiles at this. A light gleams in his eyes. The group bickers whether it was appropriate what Rajesh said. Subhash asks for permission to speak about Rajesh. Rajesh says indifferently, sure. Subhash goes, I am a failure. It is not as bad as you think. It is worse. But it is on me. What about the burden of your success? 

My success is a burden? Who is it a burden on? Me? My family? My friends?

The world. The world at large. The world is full of successful people who don't know, don't understand the meaning of their success. They pick up a petty thing, become successful and become like a pest around it. What is this failure that is too much of a burden for me? Have you ever thought? Did you ever remember me after the first year when we used to have those talks about things in the world and the meaning of it all at large? What is my failure? I could not convey to you that you are meant for bigger, better things. The way you can influence people to get these jobs for them even when they are not eligible even for the interviews, you can influence a lot more. I saw so much bright possibility for you. Your celebration of your success is my celebration for my failure.

Now, let me go and celebrate my failure, at my table, all by myself.

This is the climax. 

At different points in the plot the deception of all except Rajesh and Ajit will be revealed. They cheat Ajit out of the the job offers. Rajesh opts out himself. Nothing is coming to mind about how to conclude the narrative. Needs more development.

I hope you will be interested to know about the story as it develops. I really have nobody who would review my progress.

W.B. Yeats said in The Second Coming, _The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity. _I want to set the two face to face with each other and see how it turns out.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

burningsoul said:


> Subhash and Rajesh drift apart as they are very different characters. Subhash is deeply empathetic while Rajesh gets consumed by competition. Rajesh sees himself as a very competent person (He is INTJ).
> 
> A group of final year students have come together only recently to cheat the job placement cell. They wish to secure jobs for themselves despite lacking merit. They have all cheated their friends to improve their resumes across their four years of education.
> 
> ...


I am very interested. This plot does show Yeats’ idea. It’s very interesting, especially since I would disagree with Yeats in that, but your story does show it. Very interesting, Yes please keep me posted!


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)




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## dulcinea (Aug 22, 2011)

Lately I've been exploring both character and story archetypes.
People seem to believe that you should create something entirely new without regard for what's been done before to be original, I believe that archetypes endure for a reason.
Generally when people subvert the traditional story dynamic, it comes with more criticism than praise from the general public.
I believe that archtypes exist, because they resonate with humanity at both a societal and individual level. When you subvert it, you often create something less fundamentally human.
The hero's journey, for instance, I believe is representational of just growing up and becoming your own person. The hero, just like the general protagonist of a story, is someone who isn't in the same place at the end, as he is in the beginning, just as most people aren't after they've grown up.

I'm writing a novel, a series of novel rn, but I'm not sure whether or not I want to make them available in the end. I might just make this particle novel as a reference for other series'. It's about a young man who creates a sort of tangible virtual reality--something like Star Trek's holosuites, who is drawn into a quest to save the galaxy when he finds out some of his technology was stolen to enact a plot to destroy most life in the galaxy. If I can polish up the final draft, I might present it to a wider audience. I'll be honest, both the plot and the character arcs are a mess right now, but I do think it can be polished to become something greater...


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

@dulcinea that sounds like a really fun idea and it seems fresh to me. I don’t think I’ve heard of that idea being done. Nice!


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

What do you guys think about subtext? 

And have you ever read Checkoff where you knew that what a person was saying was the exact opposite of what they felt, but was more like what they wanted to feel? I remember a heroine... can’t remember which... who was saying how happy she was when you actually knew her heart was completely breaking. He was a master at subtext. 

I seem somewhat drawn to the writers who are really good at it... it creates this state of tension or a space of aloneness where you feel that you and the character are the only people who understand them. I’m trying to think of other examples of subtext and why it’s important in writing and why it makes things much more interesting. There are some YouTube things about it...


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## Windblownhair (Aug 12, 2013)

Llyralen said:


> What do you guys think about subtext?
> 
> And have you ever read Checkoff where you knew that what a person was saying was the exact opposite of what they felt, but was more like what they wanted to feel? I remember a heroine... can’t remember which... who was saying how happy she was when you actually knew her heart was completely breaking. He was a master at subtext.
> 
> I seem somewhat drawn to the writers who are really good at it... it creates this state of tension or a space of aloneness where you feel that you and the character are the only people who understand them. I’m trying to think of other examples of subtext and why it’s important in writing and why it makes things much more interesting. There are some YouTube things about it...


I love subtext when used properly. Conversations taking place on a different level than they sound. Conflict that isn't actually about the thing they're arguing about. That's a big one, I think, because it's such a mirror to everyday life. People that perceive the aspirational version of themselves or their lives instead of reality. Veering into unreliable narrator territory, I guess, but I think it's interesting all the same.


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## dulcinea (Aug 22, 2011)

Llyralen said:


> @dulcinea that sounds like a really fun idea and it seems fresh to me. I don’t think I’ve heard of that idea being done. Nice!


Thank you.


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## dulcinea (Aug 22, 2011)

Llyralen said:


> What do you guys think about subtext?
> 
> And have you ever read Checkoff where you knew that what a person was saying was the exact opposite of what they felt, but was more like what they wanted to feel? I remember a heroine... can’t remember which... who was saying how happy she was when you actually knew her heart was completely breaking. He was a master at subtext.
> 
> I seem somewhat drawn to the writers who are really good at it... it creates this state of tension or a space of aloneness where you feel that you and the character are the only people who understand them. I’m trying to think of other examples of subtext and why it’s important in writing and why it makes things much more interesting. There are some YouTube things about it...


This is an interesting idea,but it seems to be a bit difficult one to pull off well.
Makes me think of the film, _Love in the Afternoon_. I believe Audrey Hepburn's character in there often did that.


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## Windblownhair (Aug 12, 2013)

Is anyone doing Nanowrimo next month?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Windblownhair said:


> Is anyone doing Nanowrimo next month?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was so excited about it... but I am getting so much less time than I thought. How is yours going?


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## Windblownhair (Aug 12, 2013)

Llyralen said:


> I was so excited about it... but I am getting so much less time than I thought. How is yours going?


It’s coming! Just recently crossed the 20k threshold, and I should hit the halfway mark by the end of this weekend. It’s exciting being so fully immersed in a new world 😍


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Windblownhair said:


> It’s coming! Just recently crossed the 20k threshold, and I should hit the halfway mark by the end of this weekend. It’s exciting being so fully immersed in a new world 😍


It sOunds like that the world you built is interesting and exciting! I’d love to hear how it all panned out! Send me an email or pm because.


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