# Exploring my type, yet again.



## Sporadic Aura (Sep 13, 2009)

Gray Romantic said:


> Like pretty much everyone in this thread, I agree that you are indeed an ExFP.
> Now, the rest is more complicated.
> 
> Try reading about inferior Si and Ni and tell us what you find more relatable?
> Socionics - the16types.info - MBTI: Form of the Inferior Function


When I'm stressed, I want to just be by myself. Escape into my own world for awhile. Shut out everything else. I do feel lethargic or lacking in motivation. The inferior Si one I can relate to in some ways, I think I tend to ruminate or obsess over a few pointless details when I'm stressed. 

The inferior Ni one was interesting. I wish they gave more examples of what the "grandiose visions" would be. It seemed to be talking about taking insignificant details and adding some cosmic meaning to them. I guess I'm prone to that from time to time, but not really when I'm stressed out. 

Hmmm.


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

Sporadic Aura said:


> Right?! I was thinking how you kind of did the same thing. Go from an ENTP to an ESFP.
> 
> What do you think? Can you see me as an ESFP?


I went from ENTP >> ENFP >> ENTJ >> ESFP

The first two were based on stereotypes and the last two were based on functions. So really I would try to buckle down and understand the functions as best you can. For me it was necessary to really understand the functions, because I usually don't fit the mold of the types.

For me the functions I had the easiest time discerning between is Fi/Fe and Si/Se. The ones I have a harder time discerning between is Ni/Ne and Ti/Te. Ironically enough, Fi and Se are my two top functions.


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## Adena (May 14, 2014)

Sporadic Aura said:


> When I'm stressed, I want to just be by myself. Escape into my own world for awhile. Shut out everything else. I do feel lethargic or lacking in motivation.
> .


I say ESFP, because that sounds a lot like inferior Ni rather than Si- escape into your own world is more Ni than Si.


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## Mac The Knife (Nov 5, 2014)

Loved reading this post, someone suggested I may be ISFP and actually the Ni vs Si as well Se vs Ne is what I'm really trying to be honest with myself about. I hate using things like 'I use to skateboard and was good at it so that's Se! But it's hard to ignore them when questioning reflecting.' More I look at this tread and some of the posts it's helping me grasp it although frustrating, Little bit of a masochist since I was sitting really well with INFP and decided to take another questionnaire even though I knew it'd probably end up making me obsess again lol


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Sporadic Aura said:


> Anyways, I'm not sure if my enjoyment for physical highs correlates to Se cognition or not, actually. _*What I enjoy about them most is the challenge and the rush, its about pushing what I think I'm capable of doing. Skiing is an example, I ski pretty intense terrain. If I see a trail I think might be slightly above my skill level I have an intense urge to try it anyways. I enjoy having to exert all my energy and effort and the adrenaline rush that comes with it. Which seems more focused on a personal challenge than a desire to explore the immediate environment. On the other hand it still does require an immediate manipulation of the environment. I need to be constantly aware of the lay out of the trail and make snap decisions about my best path down, which is something I enjoy, and there are aspects of the experience such as the view from the top of a mountain or the feeling of my skis slicing through the snow that I also enjoy, which come from the immediate environment.
> *_
> If I'm an ExxP, which seems like the consensus and I think is pretty likely anyways, that means my lead function is a perceiving function (Ne or Se), the judging function pair will be in the middle of my stack. Which might be why its pretty hard for me to determine which pair I use. I've read descriptions trying to compare the "obvious" differences and it just left me more confused. I'd relate equally to both. I feel like saying I favor Fi because I value individuality or similar reasons might be too simple, might be just typing based off of stereotypes.


I don't know you at all, so I don't have an opinion on your type; but what you wrote (in bold) caught my attention. It actually could pass as a very good description of how Se-dominants throw and immerse themselves in their experiences, wanting to "push" the boundaries, which I strongly relate to

I have noticed Se-dominants talk a lot about wanting to take on "challenges," to face things "head-on." They want to dive right into the immediate and the concrete, and embrace "reality." This often gives gives them a particular kind of "energy" and charisma. Of course, any type can appreciate these things too; it's just an interesting pattern I have noticed.


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## Sporadic Aura (Sep 13, 2009)

@arkigos?

I summon you forth. Why hath you abandoned me!


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

Sporadic Aura said:


> Authenticity and individuality are pretty important to me. At times I find myself relating to Fi/Te as much if not more than Ti/Fe.


That's very very weird to me because 

1) they're like NOTHING alike.
2) see 1.



> Also, I'm socially introverted. I spend lots of time on my own, and have no problem with it. I could say I'm even unsure about being an Ne-dom. Honestly, I think my personality has a lot of contradictory aspects to it, which makes it pretty tough to pin down a type. I do get energized from being where lots of stuff is going on, or from meeting new people, its fun for me, but on the other hand like I said I can spend lots of time on my own and be completely content. I enjoy theoretical conversations and philosophy as much as the next self proclaimed N on this site, but I equally enjoy sports and physically challenging activities like rock climbing and mountain biking. I have a bit of an adrenaline junky side, an Se side. But perhaps that is a product of where and how I grew up and not my personality type. I grew up in Maine, my family was always camping, hiking doing something outside, I was also always playing sports as a kid.


It's absolutely not a product of how you were raised. That's your personality.

My parents raised me on many sports--I did dancing, gymnastics, soccer, baseball, track and cross country.

I hate sports. And physical activity of any kind.

You're strong Se. Plain and simple.

And, okay, about the introversion/extraversion. You could be an Enneagram sp dom. And this would explain why you're so quiet despite being so social. (social =/= talking). Or you could simply be an introvert.



> *2) What do you yearn for in life? Why?*
> 
> I don't know if I have a direct answer to that.
> 
> One side of me yearns for excitement, novelty and adventure. I'm happy when I can look forward to something new or interesting. Its about putting myself in positions where things will not get stale or I won't feel trapped.


Well that seems quite Enneagram 7, doesn't it?



> I'd also say I have a yearning for not only interesting experiences but also interesting people. If I find someone I think is interesting I tend to form a friendship with them quickly, and with an intensity.


^



> I have a bit of a yearning to see what my full potential is. I don't think I've come close to it in my life, so theres a bit of a yearning to start working towards it with more consistency.


Again, more 7.



> I also don't really know how to describe this one, but I'd say I have a yearning to assert myself into the world. Its like, if the world is a swimming pool where the water is still, I want to be a rock dropped into it that causes ripples throughout.


This makes me think Se/Fe. Don't know if you meant emotional ripples. Or if you simply meant it in an Se way.



> Also what jumps out now are certain conversations I've had, the type where you both lose track of time, it could be with good friends or someone you just met. They go all over the place, they jump from philosophy to the goofiest things in the world and back again. And when you're done you feel like you've actually gained a different and interesting perspective. Those conversations are rare as fuck, but super satisfying.


This makes me happy to read    



> I make small decisions on the fly. Whether its gut feeling or just quickly going through all my options. This actually isn't how I always was, there have been times when I've been pretty indecisive even about small decisions. But I've come to realize that just going with a first instinct with those decisions usually works out best anyways, and I don't want to labor over every single decisions.


Okay this is probably the last Se snippet I'm going to leave in. If I leave out stuff, it's because it's just super Se and we've already established that you're super Se.



> I don't make pros and cons lists, I think that inevitably misses the heart of the issue. Not every decision is going to be something you can you can calculate just by seeing if there are more pros or cons.


This is anti- Je. I think you're talking about it from an anti-Te perspective, though.



> For big decisions I like to spend some time, maybe a couple hours just completely by myself analyzing all sides of the decisions. I can be a bit of an over analyzer. Then, there will be inevitably things I'm still unsure about, and I'll talk it through with someone else, bounce my ideas off of them.


I think you prefer Ti.



> I definitely consider other people in my decision making process. But if someone offers unsolicited advice to me when I didn't ask for it sometimes I can get stubborn and go the opposite way with it, and either completely disregard their advice or do something contrary to it. I like having full control over what I'm doing in my life, and other people trying to push me in a certain direction is a massive turn off.


Ya, I'm gonna go with Ti/Fe. And probably introverted. (wanting to be yourself and go against what outside sources tell you is an introverted attitude. It's often attributed to Fi because Fi is also very like that, but so are just introverts in general).



> If its a project in a subject I'm interested in, or I like the teacher or class then I will be far more invested. I'm not overbearing when it comes to projects or group work, though. I don't have to be the leader of the project, although I don't mind if I am either. My emphasis would be on getting to know the people I'm working with and seeing what cool ideas they have that could make the project awesome.


This, again, makes me want to say Fe. But I could be misinterpreting it.



> I can believe in things that aren't really substantiated by external evidence as long as they have a basis of sound logic. Its much more interesting for me to pick apart the logic anyways, instead of researching facts.


Okay I'm very confident in Ti for you.


I promise that I read the rest of your questionnaire, but I don't see any reason to keep posting more comments on it. I would say with confidence *ISTP*.

[hr][/hr]


Mactheknife said:


> Loved reading this post, someone suggested I may be ISFP and actually the Ni vs Si as well Se vs Ne is what I'm really trying to be honest with myself about. I hate using things like 'I use to skateboard and was good at it so that's Se! But it's hard to ignore them when questioning reflecting.' More I look at this tread and some of the posts it's helping me grasp it although frustrating, Little bit of a masochist since I was sitting really well with INFP and decided to take another questionnaire even though I knew it'd probably end up making me obsess again lol


Being good at something doesn't make you Se. I was good at lots of Se activities (drawing and acting and running, as examples), but hate doing those things, despite being good at them. 

It's about what you LIKE to do. (this is what a preference means). Se people LIKE to skateboard. And move their bodies. And act in the moment (be spontaneous). And things like this. They have a preference for those things based off of their cognitive wiring.

(see this thread: http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/536409-things-remind-you-se.html)


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

After reading @arkigos's post, I totally see how he could think Te.

But I almost wonder if he's confusing Ti for Ti with an intuitive preference. And neglecting Ti in combination with a sensing preference. I know that when I personally try to define Te, I make the mistake of talking mostly about my experience and neglecting the experience of those who have Te mixed with other functions.

I would expect everyone else runs into this same issue. I would think an INTP would be most knowledgeable of how Ti manifests in INTPs, and so would write with that bias.



Sporadic Aura said:


> Anyways, I'm not sure if my enjoyment for physical highs correlates to Se cognition or not, actually. What I enjoy about them most is the challenge and the rush, its about pushing what I think I'm capable of doing. Skiing is an example, I ski pretty intense terrain. If I see a trail I think might be slightly above my skill level I have an intense urge to try it anyways. I enjoy having to exert all my energy and effort and the adrenaline rush that comes with it. Which seems more focused on a personal challenge than a desire to explore the immediate environment. On the other hand it still does require an immediate manipulation of the environment. I need to be constantly aware of the lay out of the trail and make snap decisions about my best path down, which is something I enjoy, and there are aspects of the experience such as the view from the top of a mountain or the _feeling_ of my skis slicing through the snow that I also enjoy, which come from the immediate environment.


I _guess_ I could see an argument here for Fi. You are talking about what you _like _to do (which is full of value judgments). But that's such a stretch of logic when you consider the context (a "type me" thread). (I realize Arkigos already addressed that, but I am struggling to agree)



> If I'm an ExxP, which seems like the consensus and I think is pretty likely anyways, that means my lead function is a perceiving function (Ne or Se), the judging function pair will be in the middle of my stack. Which might be why its pretty hard for me to determine which pair I use. I've read descriptions trying to compare the "obvious" differences and it just left me more confused. I'd relate equally to both. I feel like saying I favor Fi because I value individuality or similar reasons might be too simple, might be just typing based off of stereotypes.


There's not an Ne bone in your body. That much is clear.



Sporadic Aura said:


> *16) What makes you dislike the personalities of some people?*
> 
> People who are too self assured. *People who are histrionic*.


Comments like this, assuming they are genuine, make me think Fe inferior. Have you ever met an ESFP? The only people more histrionic than that are ESTPs, in my experience. Probably due to the Fe.



Sporadic Aura said:


> Unfortunately its fairly rare that I actually get the chance to talk about philosophy. I have a small group of friends that are game, plus my brother and my grandfather, but its still rare. I'd say my biggest priority is just expanding my perception. For example awhile ago my buddy and I were talking about free will, and if there was a way to prove it existed, he brought up some ideas I never considered before. Thats what I'm after. I want something new and interesting to digest. It also really helps me to bounce my thoughts off of other people. I'll explain some half-baked idea I've been working on by myself. They will be like "hmm, but what about this, this and that", then we'll have a debate back and forth until it is more refined. I have 1 friend who is very well versed in philosophy, and its especially helpful talking with him, because sometimes my half-baked theories that I came up with kind of on my own actually relate to actual philosophical concepts.


I don't see how this is representative of someone who prefers subjective values and objective logic to subjective logic and objective values.

This seems to be written by someone who prefers subjective logic. Especially if this is a common preference of his.

No?

[hr][/hr]


arkigos said:


> In a sense, the abstract internalized logic of Ti is used to manipulate or justify the system to fit whatever ideas of it the person already has... such as stereotype or whatever. "My friend is so sensitive and INFPs are so sensitive so he is SUCH an INFP.. I'll tell him that and it will really help him with X or Y." or, "My mom is such an X, so she must be an ESFJ because Y".


Totally. You are very astute and make very keen observations here.



> Te is totally different. They are just painfully objective and face-value. "Everyone said that Se was this, so I typed myself Se based on that. Are you saying it is different now?" and Te types can be quite impatient when things get too meanderingly abstract or inapplicable. Delving into the abstract system is all well and good, but could you just give it to me straight?


You are 100% correct. 

Is he being like that? I haven't seen him do that a single time (at least not on this thread. I haven't read every post he's ever written, so maybe he has done it before, but I haven't seen it).

Use him as a comparison to Moonious:
http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...oonious-type-moonious-type-moonious-type.html

Or any of the other 99% of NTPs on here who re-think their type every single day.

He's not really saying "okay, do the work for me" (right?) but rather, he's just getting opinions, no?

It seems typical Ti to explore every angle despite their better judgment. It appeared to me that that was what he was doing.



arkigos said:


> If you were an ENFP, your response would be as I said above, jumping ahead and moving the conversation


I would argue that this is, in part, due to Te being so goal-focused and unneeding of fleshed out jabber that Ti is so attracted to talking about and pondering about.

But rather, Te just wants things to move forward. Quickly. Simply results. Don't even write subjects in your sentences. Just get the point across and hit enter. Morse Code.

If I were OP, I would be coming up with a new determination after every single post. And keep changing my answer until we found one that couldn't have holes poked into it. Or at least one that had the fewest.



> I think you will just be ever thirstier for content to absorb.


As, it seems to me, that Ti preferrers often always are.

(By the way, I really want to say thank you, to you, Arkigos, because those descriptions of Se and Ne were seriously some of the most beautiful descriptions I have ever read.

So goddamn insightful and beautiful. I'm going to have to bookmark them.)
[hr][/hr]


Sporadic Aura said:


> I feel like saying I favor Fi because I value individuality or similar reasons might be too simple, might be just typing based off of stereotypes.


I agree because often Fe inferior is like this, but ultimately you have met you and I haven't.

So I would recommend figuring it out for yourself






If you cannot determine which one you are through this ^, you're probably Fe inferior.

I would think it would be very obvious to you if you were Fi. It was for me. But then you could argue that it should have been easy for me due to Fe PoLR. But stop arguing and watch the video.


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## Sporadic Aura (Sep 13, 2009)

Thanks for your posts, they've been insightful. Given me some things to think about. I'm really hoping arkigos returns now.

I'm about to watch the Fe vs Fi video to see what I think.



emberfly said:


> There's not an Ne bone in your body. That much is clear.


So this is obvious to you? Is it just because you see a ton of Se? Or anything in particular that seems anti-Ne?


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## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

I saw Te _but_ I've spent few months mistyping my ENTJ cousin, whom I knew for literally 25 years, as ISTP and mistyped ISTP and NTJ before. Apparently I fall face down when it comes to Se+Tx.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

Sporadic Aura said:


> So this is obvious to you? Is it just because you see a ton of Se? Or anything in particular that seems anti-Ne?


There just seems to be a lack of an intuitive preference in your posts. As well as, yes, the stark Se preference implies weak Ne.

I think Arkigos did a very good job of explaining how Se and Ne are not alike. (here: http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...ploring-my-type-yet-again-2.html#post16742049)

Frankly, if you wanted a super sexy explanation, I would ask him. He's WAY WAY WAY WAY better at explaining things than I am.

And, actually, while you're waiting for Arkigos to come back, here's another Ti preferrer who's great at explaining things:


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

A band of coyotes are doing battle outside my window. It is time I return. 



Sporadic Aura said:


> @_arkigos_
> 
> I think I now have a more complete understanding of Se. Se devours, that is its essence. It devours experiences, ideas, content, that’s what it does. It wants to take something interesting and explore it completely. Explore the entirety of it, until something more interesting comes along and then it wants to explore the entirety of the new thing.


Well, it WANTS to, but so often fails to do so because the urge for NEW (and shiny) is often stronger than any sort of urge for completion or depth. So, yes, it devours until it has experienced the thing to its satisfaction and then typically discards that thing until it offers the possibility of new or more dynamic experience. Se types are the quintessential gamers for this reason. The whole video game market caters to the Se cognitive process. 

It is also perhaps more passive than I may have painted it. It is devouring of content, but it is more just being present for that content, getting to that content.... and once there I find that SPs, even STPs are not inclined to help that content along to give them a good experience. They are very objective in that way. They'll not try to find the best in the content, but if it is good it will engage them and if not it will not. 



Sporadic Aura said:


> What is the Ne contrast to that? Wanting to take something interesting, use bits and pieces of it, discard the rest and use the bits and pieces to create something new? The essence of Ne is not devouring, its morphing? How does this play out in an Ne-doms approach to life? If the example of an Se-dom is a garage full of half abandoned hobbies, what is the equivalent example of an Ne-dom?


The Ne dom wouldn't have a garage full of abandoned hobbies, because that is mostly about things experienced and then abandoned. Ne doesn't really deal in content. Ne types are far more interested in just raw mutation. 

Let me give you an example that is perhaps a little odd, but it is a good one. Take a card game. I mentioned Magic the Gathering before. If you don't know, it is a card game where you basically fight someone else with your cards until you deal enough damage to them to kill them. The reason it makes for a good example is because there are a lot of different kinds of cards and mutations and combinations that make the game anything but straightforward. Se types and Ne types play the game completely differently, and it is fascinating. Very very telling. 

So, the Se wants to have the best experience possible. This usually means they want to succeed, and do well, and win, and compete well, and feel all of that good stuff. They want a good fight, a hard fight, an exciting fight. The best experience, the best content. So, typically they are more focused on winning (though that isn't ALWAYS the best experience, just usually) and taking the more direct route to doing that. The best cards are the best, the worst are the worst and there is a strong feeling of 'it is what it is' and so they are super focused on finding the best and shiniest and using that to get the best experience. 

Ne is totally different. They are not interested in the best experience, but in possibilities. So, they will trigger on anything that offers possibility. This does not mean the best experience (often quite the opposite) and it is more detached from the idea of winning or getting a good result. So long as a new avenue is opened, they are satisfied. The best avenue isn't the best because the scope of it is known, and thus it is morbid to the Ne. 

So, say you had two people getting into the game.. and you hand one a set of cards that are the best, the Se would instantly snatch them up because that is what will promise the best experience... where the Ne would find it lacking in scope for the imagination, and would be fairly passionless about it... instead wondering what other variant options there were, even if those were sub-par. The promise of discovering a new possibility would be so enticing that they'd want to go with that route... and the most important part... the Ne would be HAPPY even if that possibility failed to provide an ideal experience. For the Se, that would be utterly distasteful and pointless in the extreme. They'd only allow it, or seek it out in a desperate bid for a better experience.



Sporadic Aura said:


> The thing is part of the Se description does fit me. At times I’ve been a bit of a devourer of content and experiences. I like to soak things up, as you put it. Although the idea of Se doesn’t resonate with me. It feels _empty_ in a sense. I think strong Se-users have a similar style of engaging with the world. I was flooded with examples of strong Se-users I knew in real life, it was an epiphany of sorts, "aha! that is what Se looks like, that person is clearly a strong Se-user". They all have a similar way of engaging with the world. I'd describe it as _expansive_, but also an element of _emptiness_. Its as if they got lost in the content they are devouring. I don't know if describing it as empty will make sense to you, but that is what came to mind. More importantly the idea of Se doesn't really resonate with me. Although I completely realize some of the aspects describes parts of how I tend to be.


Then you are likely not a super-strong Se. This sounds like a tinge of introversion and feeling here. Searching for something more soulful. More of a hesitation at extraversion than an argument against Se, per se. 



Sporadic Aura said:


> When I'm stressed, I want to just be by myself. Escape into my own world for awhile. Shut out everything else. I do feel lethargic or lacking in motivation. The inferior Si one I can relate to in some ways, I think I tend to ruminate or obsess over a few pointless details when I'm stressed.


That is mostly just introversion. Inferior Si is a whole different beast, and deals with how you perceive sensory stimulus. Si types abstract it and pull it away from particulars. This leads to a tendency to stereotype on the one hand, and sort of mythological thinking on the other... being detached from the world, you start seeing the world through a tribal lens. A private fantasy world... really. A person in their private home in their private village with their private god. My world, not yours. Also, I once said that for an Si the nostalgic touch of a well-worn book is more real than the book itself.. which isn't an object to them, but the impressions it holds. 



Sporadic Aura said:


> The inferior Ni one was interesting. I wish they gave more examples of what the "grandiose visions" would be. It seemed to be talking about taking insignificant details and adding some cosmic meaning to them. I guess I'm prone to that from time to time, but not really when I'm stressed out.
> 
> Hmmm.


Conspiracy theories tend to come from this (though Jung might have associated that more with Thinking). The ideas of 'destiny', too. I have seen this stuff manifest in the craziest of ways. An ESTP I know is the king of the inferior Ni grandiose visions. He has lost millions (not kidding, like, 10 million dollars) on these nonsensical visions. Their unconscious mind is looking for meaning in the things they have done that are either luck or otherwise out of their control, and start assigning meaning to them... making it all part of something that was meant to be, or is charmed, or cursed or whatever... it is basically just giving grand meaning to stuff that has none. That is inferior Ni. 

You see this a LOT with big athletes... especially when they have won something big or lost something big. 

Inferior Si, if you ask me, is more about falling back into private idiosyncrasies and a private world. Falling back into that which is comfortable, into private mythologies about the world, and other neurotic tics. I have often wondered if Howard Hughes isn't a good example of the extreme ravages of an inferior Si. I've seem a similar implosion in an ENTP, and have meant to consider it further. Maybe I will. Anyway, for an Ni inferior, there is a mystical symbolic big picture vibe to the madness, where with an Si there is a very impressionistically sensory vibe to it... freaking out about the size of peas and things like that. Jung said something to that effect when discussing the dark side of Ne when the sensory boils up:



> He rids himself of the restrictions of reason, only to fall a victim to unconscious neurotic compulsions in the form of oversubtle, negative reasoning, hair-splitting dialectics, and a compulsive tie to the sensation of the object. His conscious attitude, both to the sensation and the sensed object, is one of sovereign superiority and disregard. Not that he means to be inconsiderate or superior—he simply does not see the object that everyone else sees; his oblivion is similar to that of the sensation-type—only, with the latter, the soul of the object is missed. For this oblivion the object sooner or later takes revenge in the form of hypochondriacal, compulsive ideas, phobias, and every imaginable kind of absurd bodily sensation.


Whereas for Se he said this:



> But, above all, the repressed intuitions begin to assert themselves in the form of projections upon the object. The strangest conjectures arise; in the case of a sexual object, jealous phantasies and anxiety-states play a great role. More acute cases develop every sort of phobia, and especially compulsive symptoms. The pathological contents have a remarkable air of unreality, with a frequent moral or religious colouring. A pettifogging captiousness often develops, or an absurdly scrupulous morality coupled with a primitive, superstitious and 'magical' religiosity, harking back to abstruse rites. All these things have their source in the repressed inferior functions, which, in such cases, stand in harsh opposition to the conscious standpoint; they wear, in fact, an aspect that is all the more striking because they appear to rest upon the most absurd suppositions, in complete contrast to the conscious sense of reality. The whole culture of thought and feeling seems, in this second personality, to be twisted into a morbid primitiveness; reason is hair-splitting sophistry—morality is dreary moralizing and palpable Pharisaism—religion is absurd superstition—intuition, the noblest of human gifts, is a mere personal subtlety, a sniffing into every corner; instead of searching the horizon, it recedes to the narrowest gauge of human meanness.


Simply put, in both cases, either crappy archaic abstract sensing or crappy archaic abstract intuition. 
@_emberfly_ - though I think I still lean toward ESFP, I had not and have not removed the possibility of Ti/Fe. You may prove correct. I am not sure I have much more to add on the subject.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

arkigos said:


> @_emberfly_ - though I think I still lean toward ESFP, I had not and have not removed the possibility of Ti/Fe. You may prove correct. I am not sure I have much more to add on the subject.


No, no, don't be that way. Your understanding is way more in-depth than mine.

I was wondering if you could pretty please talk about Ti in how it manifests in ESTPs. I would really like to know your understanding of that.

To me it seems intrinsically unakin to Ti in INTPs. In that Ti/Se is more interested in logical systems of practical matters.

You often see Ti/Se going into trades like auto mechanic and hairdresser. They pick a practical niche and specialize in it. 

Which I think is so characteristic of Ti--specialization. Wouldn't you agree? It seems Ti really prefers to understand everything about something. Like taking a watch apart to see how it works. No Te would ever do that. What a waste of time! Who would put it back together? I can't be arsed to do that!

Watch mechanic is another good example of Ti/Se. Politics seems to really draw Ti in as well. Moreso Se/Ti, I would imagine (and from my own experience). Or perhaps Ti/Ne are your political theorists and Se/Ti are your politicians.

And to me it seems as though Ti in NTPs is more interested in _im_practical matters. Matters of life and philosophy and origins of the universe and things like this.

Everyone is interested in those things ^ to some extent, but no one is more interested in this than the INTP. INTPs commit their entire lives to thinking about things like this and coming up with their subjective philosophies on life.

One thing I want to point out about your writing is that you seem to write from a place of taxonomic perspective. 

You write about people in such a detached way like you're writing about other species of animals. You write about what makes them function (the mechanics behind them) instead of about how they manifest.


I find this so interesting. It seems hugely detached from reality.

Like you're describing another planet that you created yourself and how you designed each of the individual characters within it.

I mean, you did use some examples from reality--the video game example was really solid--but I wonder if you were pandering to the crowd there.

Is seems to me as though Ti is not concerned with actual reality (as Jung would call it: _ob_jective reality). It couldn't care less about that. But rather, it cares about its own personal reality. The reality within its head of subjective logic. It puts its own spin on reality and often comes off as some sort of alien. (what planet are you from? Surely not planet Earth.)


(I'm not at all trying to criticize you, by the way. I find it so incredibly fascinating that we are so different. That humans can have _such_ crazy differences in their cognitive preferences.

It makes me actually wonder, though, how Ti evolved. Because it seems so un-useful in a more primitive world. I totally get how Ti has led to crazy innovations such as FACTORIES and OPERATING SYSTEMS and these things that still baffle me. Anything to do with machines baffles me greatly. I am so jealous of people who can understand those things.

But, pre- industrial revolution, what the fuck was Ti doing? It seems to me to be a recent innovation in cognitive development).

edit:

Sorry that I edit my posts 5,000 times after submitting them. That was my last edit, promise ;o
[hr][/hr]
Actually, I lied, sorry, I edited about 12 times after that, and here is another one:

It makes me see how Ti could totally view Te as super "shallow" and lacking any sort of brain function wink.

I find that so interesting and HILARIOUS because that's exactly what I think of Fe.

And we're both right--well--sort of.

Te does lack depth, but not because it is shallow--it isn't shallow at all actually because that would imply that it has a depth--but rather, Te is a reflective surface--a mirror--that merely shows you what already exists in the world.

I think that's beautiful. I'm kind of having an "aha!" right now. I didn't even realize this before (even though now it seems so obvious). But wow this really explains extraverted functions so much more clearly for me. I get now why introverts often describe extraverts as lacking depth. Because it's true!! That's what extraverted MEANS! Extroversion isn't interested in biasing things with their own subjective interpretations--but rather, extroversion is more interested in the objective. Things that come from outside of itself.

This makes me feel bad for all those times that I thought negatively of Fe :laughing: because I totally get it now. It makes so much sense to me.

edit:

I swear that was the last edit. Please read everything all over again from the top :laughing: god I'm a goober.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

You know--I just thought about something.

I wonder if I prefer to hit submit prematurely because then I can go over it and re-read it. And in that way, it's objective. Because it's out in the world and no longer inside the subjective realm of my brain and my thoughts. And in that way, I can make rather more objective changes to what I have written and see where information is lacking that needs to be added.

I wonder if conglomerating your thoughts into a big post BEFORE putting it out into the world is more of a Ti thing. Because Ti is so much more interested in ruminating in that subjective realm. And not posting it out there. It prefers to stockpile its thoughts into megaposts of detail and understanding that it will then submit all at once.


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

emberfly said:


> ...


Haha, most of my examples are pandering to the crowd. No other way about it. Otherwise it is too meandering and abstract. 

But, you are right in all of your observations. I look at people like they are in my terrarium. I've said before, perhaps tongue in cheek, "can't you all see you are just rats in a cage to me?" My benevolence, however, knows no bounds. I love my rats more than I have words to say.

I traveled through Asia, met countless people, did so many great things but to hear me talk about it... you'd think it was an anthropological research project. In every moment I was an anthropologist. I am shambling drunk down a dirt road in a remote village, dressed in the local clothes, speaking the local language, with local people ... and I feel so connected with them, but I am still profoundly alien. I am still the scientist and they are still the specimens. I am inside my own body in a little spaceship, noting behaviors and mannerisms and subtle ideologies and cultural idiosyncrasies and commonalities, and the effects of poverty and westernization and war and religion...and... and ..and. ... I sing myself to sleep with what it all means, or where they all fit in my ever-evolving framework for understanding and explaining their culture and how it came to be or where it is going. 

It is profoundly detached from, but also incredibly attracted to, people. They are the most interesting specimens. HAHA!

----

Interesting that you mentioned hairdresser for Ti/Se. Why? 

My best ISTP friend longs to be an underwater welder... lol, which baffles me. Sounds terrible. He also wants to build a blacksmithery. Is that what you call that? I told him I was super excited to help him with the smeltery, but if he wanted to hammer metal for hours on end, he was on his own. I don't know that Ti is the source of innovation, but of technical design. We love to reinvent the wheel from scratch. To break it all apart and put it back together.... we are focused on process rather than result. We abstract things. We love blueprints more than what they help us make. 

We THINK in blueprints. The abstracter the better.

Hairdresser? Not sure how that appeals to Ti. I know one hairdresser personally. She is an ESTJ. My wife says her hairdresser (who is excellent and costs like 100 dollars) is an ISFP. She is usually right about people's types so he probably is. I dunno. STPs definitely do gravitate to mechanics, though, because it is all systems and juryrigging and taking things apart. They dig that. 

Ti in ESTPs? Depends on the ESTP.. some of them have conscious use of Ti and some don't. 

..and, yes, Te types, as far as I can tell, don't think. They observe and state. That isn't thinking by my estimation, but it results in factual and thus logical statements. But, then they do sometimes think as well, just like I can also observe and state... but for the most part it isn't abstracting and thus isn't THINKING. Thinking requires detachment from the object, rumination, abstraction. Te types avoid that and thus avoid thinking. But, they call that observe and state thing 'thinking', so I guess it is a failure of terminology.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

arkigos said:


> Interesting that you mentioned hairdresser for Ti/Se. Why?


I knew that was coming :laughing:

Professional hairdressing involves a lot of knowledge of chemistry and hair products and biology and knowledge of how hair functions in order to know how to make it look beautiful. You see famous hairdressers being ESTPs sometimes for this reason (like this guy):


* *
















> Hairdresser? Not sure how that appeals to Ti. I know one hairdresser personally. She is an ESTJ. My wife says her hairdresser (who is excellent and costs like 100 dollars) is an ISFP. She is usually right about people's types so he probably is. I dunno. STPs definitely do gravitate to mechanics, though, because it is all systems and juryrigging and taking things apart. They dig that.
> 
> Ti in ESTPs? Depends on the ESTP.. some of them have conscious use of Ti and some don't.


I have no doubt that fields can draw people of a wide array of personality types. One sees this all the time.

I would expect an ISFP to be interested in hairdressing for the artistic/creative aspect of hairdressing. Making things look purdy and having fun.

ESTP seems, to me, to be much more interested in understanding how the field of hairdressing actually works and understanding how products interact with each other and the way highlighter and toner and dyes interact with each other and heat and curly hair and straight hair and Afro hair . . . 

It's a lot more complex than just cutting hair.

Or at least it _can be_ if that's what you're interested in. Some people aren't and just cut hair to make it look purdy.


I've also seen Ti being really drawn to professional makeup artistry. Seems like the majority of youtube makeup gurus are Ti.

(examples):
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC255iTGVmvApdxyACyp87Hg
https://www.youtube.com/user/MichellePhan
https://www.youtube.com/user/MakeupGeekTV/videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/CosmeticConsultant/videos
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJz3WuXcsB-1KAeWOSfhY0Q


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## Sporadic Aura (Sep 13, 2009)

I do not think I'm an Se-dom. ISxP is a distinct possibility. Fi-dom seems a bit of a stretch, however. My Fe is not strong at all, but I could see it in the inferior position for ISTP. I'm not convinced of Se/Ni, but everyone else seems to be.

This is where I'm at right now. Definitely leaning ISTP over ESFP.


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## Sporadic Aura (Sep 13, 2009)

I want to continue exploring this, but I don't really know where to go from here. 

Reading descriptions of the functions or watching videos doesn't help me out a ton. I end up relating to them all, for some reason its really tough for me to discern which ones I use.


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## Sporadic Aura (Sep 13, 2009)

thinking about this recently

*bump*


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