# Does no active sexual or love life make me a loser?



## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Am I a loser for sticking to my values and waiting to get married again before I have sex? Even though I will probably never meet anybody ideal and worthy enough for me? Even though I dump them for not meeting my demands or scare them away by revealing my intensity as soon as we get started?


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## gravitate (Apr 13, 2010)

First of all, you are a loser if you think you are one. To me, a loser is someone who doesn't care. If you have your beliefs and values, I believe you care, and you can't be a loser.

As I myself has also been single since I was born...I also wonder if I'm a loser! I also "scare them away by revealing my intensity as soon as we get started"...Now, although we are not losers, we can always work on something. If you feel that your intensity is an obstacle, see how you can turn it into something that is more favourable. (I know it's hard, I'm figuring it out as well. Sometimes I just don't care and think, well that special someone will be able to tolerate my intensity! But this is rather self-centred I realize.)


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Well I think only the wrong guys see my intensity in a bad way. Like when they start to leave me feeling uncared for or jealous. I can't take those feelings. I would just rather end the relationship than to deal with that. On the other hand, I don't want someone who isn't a challenge for me.


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## kittychris07 (Jun 15, 2010)

I think you're fine about waiting until you find the right person (or to get married) before you have sex. 

But are you exaggerating when you say that you are not going to meet anybody ideal and worthy of you? I'm sure you can. It might take you awhile. But please don't look down on other men in general (not to say that you are, just saying that maybe you are, and I don't know you well enough to tell).


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

kittychris07 said:


> I think you're fine about waiting until you find the right person (or to get married) before you have sex.
> 
> But are you exaggerating when you say that you are not going to meet anybody ideal and worthy of you? I'm sure you can. It might take you awhile. But please don't look down on other men in general (not to say that you are, just saying that maybe you are, and I don't know you well enough to tell).


No I don't mean that I look down on them at all. I mean that I tend to only become attracted to selfish sleezbags. I think the more attractive men do tend to be taken and if they aren't they often either feel to eager for me or maybe not enough of a challenge. Something... I could be attracted to a guy with good values if he had a lot of sex appeal, just hard to find that combo.


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## Mr.Xl Vii (Jan 19, 2011)

I dont really believe in the institution of marriage to any degree really, but if it's what you want to do, then whatever. Personally I think you're wasting your time by waiting, but whatever. You're not really a loser. 

I'm more of a loser. I'm attractive enough to have sex, but I dont have that drive to pursue someone I find uninteresting or too much work. So in the end I sit around and not get laid because I'm picky or dont feel like putting in the work emotionally.

We all have our issues.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Mr.Xl Vii said:


> I dont really believe in the institution of marriage to any degree really, but if it's what you want to do, then whatever. Personally I think you're wasting your time by waiting, but whatever. You're not really a loser.
> 
> I'm more of a loser. I'm attractive enough to have sex, but I dont have that drive to pursue someone I find uninteresting or too much work. So in the end I sit around and not get laid because I'm picky or dont feel like putting in the work emotionally.
> 
> We all have our issues.


interesting... maybe you need an alcoholic beverage, a blue pill, and then to get yourself... somewhere where these girls are. Look at me... I shouldn't be encouraging people to do things I wouldn't do. Sorry.


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## Mr.Xl Vii (Jan 19, 2011)

Cleo said:


> interesting... maybe you need an alcoholic beverage, a blue pill, and then to get yourself... somewhere where these girls are. Look at me... I shouldn't be encouraging people to do things I wouldn't do. Sorry.


I mean when I have alcoholic beverages in me then it's a different story, but I'm not currently in school right now and I'm under the legal drinking age and living with my parents. So no intercourse for me. And I dont really want to pick up high school girls.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Mr.Xl Vii said:


> I mean when I have alcoholic beverages in me then it's a different story, but I'm not currently in school right now and I'm under the legal drinking age and living with my parents. So no intercourse for me. And I dont really want to pick up high school girls.


I cannot believe I just talked to a minor this way.


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## Mr.Xl Vii (Jan 19, 2011)

Cleo said:


> I cannot believe I just talked to a minor this way.


I'm not a minor, I'm almost 20. America just has bullshit alcohol laws.


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## Cover3 (Feb 2, 2011)

at least you're not a guy


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Mr.Xl Vii said:


> I'm not a minor, I'm almost 20. America just has bullshit alcohol laws.


ok, as long as you are not under eighteen I feel better. How scary is that? How there really isn't that boundary between adults and minors on the internet. You could walk yourself in to kinds of trouble without even realizing it.


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## Hosker (Jan 19, 2011)

Of course not. You're only a loser if that's what you consider yourself to be.


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## Sanjana03 (Jun 3, 2010)

No? Everyone has their own priorities and values in life. Stick to those you've chosen for yourself. At least you're interested in relationships.

The whole loser concept is pure bull anyway. Fuck the pressure, just do what you think that's right.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

Cleo said:


> Am I a loser for sticking to my values and waiting to get married again before I have sex? Even though I will probably never meet anybody ideal and worthy enough for me? Even though I dump them for not meeting my demands or scare them away by revealing my intensity as soon as we get started?


No, if anything you are a winner for sticking to your values. If some people can't tolerate your values, you shouldn't take that to mean that your values are wrong.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

Cover3 said:


> at least you're not a guy


Why does that matter?


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

Just find a guy that values what you do and wants to resist as well.

That way you can play a game of trying to get the other one to give in, lol.

If he holds out, you've got a keeper for marriage, if not, you've at least had the most built up intense sex ever.

As far as intensity, its good, as long as it has some faith in it, and isn't all insecurity.

Good luck 



Cleo said:


> No I don't mean that I look down on them at all. I mean that I tend to only become attracted to selfish sleezbags. QUOTE]
> 
> Lol. You want the passion, but need to find a guy with your values who understands God and Passion.


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## Miles (Jun 22, 2011)

Cleo said:


> Am I a loser for sticking to my values and waiting to get married again before I have sex? Even though I will probably never meet anybody ideal and worthy enough for me? Even though I dump them for not meeting my demands or scare them away by revealing my intensity as soon as we get started?


No, you are not a loser for believing in what you want to believe in. Losers are those who would make fun of people with such beliefs. If you are that dead set on not finding someone who is ideal and worthy enough for you that's to your own and should be looked at as a strength and not a weakness, but you still aren't a loser even then. If you dump people before you let them get to know you instead of forcing yourself or your views upon them, chances are you might have gotten dumped sooner or later anyways, but no, you still wouldn't be a loser.


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## apprehended (Sep 24, 2010)

Cleo said:


> Am I a loser for sticking to my values and waiting to get married again before I have sex? Even though I will probably never meet anybody ideal and worthy enough for me? Even though I dump them for not meeting my demands or scare them away by revealing my intensity as soon as we get started?


As others have already said, no you are not a loser for sticking to your values. I look at this way: the person that will belittle you for sticking to your values will probably also be the one belittling you for not sticking to them if you did compromise them. Better to be hated/belittled for holding to your values rather than be loved (or hated) for compromising them imo.

Life can change incredibly fast and you never know what tomorrow will hold. The person you are waiting for could very well walk into your life tomorrow. An example from my own life: I was talking to this girl I met while she was in town for a few months a couple of years. She was going through a rather rough time, so I was talking to her and trying to encourage her. Anyway, I am at her Dad's house (who lives in my town) a few days later and I see her there. A few weeks later her and I are good friends. We never made it to the dating phase, but I realized just how incredibly quickly life can change without any warning.

Speaking from personal experience though, starting to believe that you will never find someone for whatever reason is a dangerous path to start down. It can get very lonely and depressing very quickly.

If it matters, married people have more sex anyway: Global study dispels common myths about sex


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

apprehended said:


> As others have already said, no you are not a loser for sticking to your values. I look at this way: the person that will belittle you for sticking to your values will probably also be the one belittling you for not sticking to them if you did compromise them. Better to be hated/belittled for holding to your values rather than be loved (or hated) for compromising them imo.
> 
> Life can change incredibly fast and you never know what tomorrow will hold. The person you are waiting for could very well walk into your life tomorrow. An example from my own life: I was talking to this girl I met while she was in town for a few months a couple of years. She was going through a rather rough time, so I was talking to her and trying to encourage her. Anyway, I am at her Dad's house (who lives in my town) a few days later and I see her there. A few weeks later her and I are good friends. We never made it to the dating phase, but I realized just how incredibly quickly life can change without any warning.
> 
> ...


These articles almost always point towards disease being a problem with sex, like that is the only thing society should be worried about. What ever happened to mental health concerns in regards to sex? Has society just decided that one doesn't have to do with the other. But I get what your were trying to say, just had to put in my two cents.


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## apprehended (Sep 24, 2010)

Cleo said:


> These articles almost always point towards disease being a problem with sex, like that is the only thing society should be worried about. What ever happened to mental health concerns in regards to sex? Has society just decided that one doesn't have to do with the other. But I get what your were trying to say, just had to put in my two cents.


I linked it mainly for people who want/require proof of the claim that married people have more sex.

I agree with you though that disease isn't the only thing that society should be worried about regarding sex.


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## Mr.Xl Vii (Jan 19, 2011)

Cleo said:


> These articles almost always point towards disease being a problem with sex, like that is the only thing society should be worried about. What ever happened to mental health concerns in regards to sex? Has society just decided that one doesn't have to do with the other. But I get what your were trying to say, just had to put in my two cents.


I dont really see how sex can affect your mental health. Maybe emotional health. But aside from the whole "yay, I can cross this off my list" feeling, my mind registered it as any other physical activity. Oh and I guess there was a minor shift in how I began to view my interaction with the opposite sex. I realized I had too many platonic female friends and I sort of stopped that (it distorts how girls view you)


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## La Belle Dame Sans Merci (Jun 20, 2011)

Cleo said:


> Am I a loser for sticking to my values and waiting to get married again before I have sex? Even though I will probably never meet anybody ideal and worthy enough for me? Even though I dump them for not meeting my demands or scare them away by revealing my intensity as soon as we get started?


 
I totally feel where you're coming from on this one. I'm very very picky and don't expect to ever be married. There are men around all the time (being an attractive woman, this is not difficult to get) but none of them are really lifetime material. But I'd still recommend considering sex outside of marriage. I think its healthy. I don't sleep around--I have serious relationships in which sex is a factor most of the time--but the more experience you have from healthy relationships like that, the more you have to bring to the bedroom of your future husband. Its important to know what you like and figure out what makes a man tick as well. 

Also, if a man doesn't love your intensity, he isn't the man for you. I don't know what you mean by "exposing" it immediately, if you're pulling a crazy, I wouldn't expect a man to stick around for more. But I don't consider my intensity nutty. Just, I'm passionate about everything I do or feel. I'd be concerned if by intensity you meant you fall madly in love with every man you like in less than a month, but it doesn't sound like you have that problem.

Don't give up hope. I've met one man who made all the pain from the other relationships worth it. Its ok to not be ready for anything serious but being INFJ, you'll need people in your life, you aren't the type who is happy alone for long. Just don't let your fear and values get in the way of your living your life to the fullest. Even if you don't want sex outside of marriage, try to get out and do things. I know its hard when you're an introvert, but trust me, meeting people and making friends will make you feel really good about your life.


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## NekoNinja (Apr 18, 2010)

It depends on whos standards we are talking about. In terms of Charlie Sheen - yes you are a loser. In my own terms - you are a winner. Better yet you are Bi-Winning!!!

=D

<33


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Mr.Xl Vii said:


> I dont really see how sex can affect your mental health. Maybe emotional health. But aside from the whole "yay, I can cross this off my list" feeling, my mind registered it as any other physical activity. Oh and I guess there was a minor shift in how I began to view my interaction with the opposite sex. I realized I had too many platonic female friends and I sort of stopped that (it distorts how girls view you)


Good move on your part.  Emotional health is mental healthy... Am I missing something?


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## Mr.Xl Vii (Jan 19, 2011)

Cleo said:


> Good move on your part.  Emotional health is mental healthy... Am I missing something?


but I mean, your emotional health only really suffers if you put yourself in shitty sexual relationships.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Lauren Gooch said:


> I totally feel where you're coming from on this one. I'm very very picky and don't expect to ever be married. There are men around all the time (being an attractive woman, this is not difficult to get) but none of them are really lifetime material. But I'd still recommend considering sex outside of marriage. I think its healthy. I don't sleep around--I have serious relationships in which sex is a factor most of the time--but the more experience you have from healthy relationships like that, the more you have to bring to the bedroom of your future husband. Its important to know what you like and figure out what makes a man tick as well.
> 
> Also, if a man doesn't love your intensity, he isn't the man for you. I don't know what you mean by "exposing" it immediately, if you're pulling a crazy, I wouldn't expect a man to stick around for more. But I don't consider my intensity nutty. Just, I'm passionate about everything I do or feel. I'd be concerned if by intensity you meant you fall madly in love with every man you like in less than a month, but it doesn't sound like you have that problem.
> 
> Don't give up hope. I've met one man who made all the pain from the other relationships worth it. Its ok to not be ready for anything serious but being INFJ, you'll need people in your life, you aren't the type who is happy alone for long. Just don't let your fear and values get in the way of your living your life to the fullest. Even if you don't want sex outside of marriage, try to get out and do things. I know its hard when you're an introvert, but trust me, meeting people and making friends will make you feel really good about your life.


I do know men that value women who don't act like experienced sex animals because they know it was learned with someone else. That is if they care. Your experience in bed doesn't raise your value and a lot of men appreciate innocence.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Mr.Xl Vii said:


> but I mean, your emotional health only really suffers if you put yourself in shitty sexual relationships.


I don't know what you mean by that. It would feel pretty shitty to me if I was sharing myself with someone and we claimed to be in a committed relationship and then change their mind later. They have every right to.


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## Optimal Lanzar (Jun 13, 2011)

I'll let you in on a little secret - society has a word for people that do what they want, it's called being a selfish loser. You haven't joined in on the bandwagon, you're holding out, you value yourself and your life - and they have something to say about that. You don't think you were flawed? Think again. People will find flaws you never knew existed.

And you know what? Fuck 'em. Seriously. It's your life. You do what you want with it.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

NekoNinja said:


> It depends on whos standards we are talking about. In terms of Charlie Sheen - yes you are a loser. In my own terms - you are a winner. Better yet you are Bi-Winning!!!
> 
> =D
> 
> <33


Hahaha, that was halarious.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Yozuki Ri said:


> I'll let you in on a little secret - society has a word for people that do what they want, it's called being a selfish loser. You haven't joined in on the bandwagon, you're holding out, you value yourself and your life - and they have something to say about that. You don't think you were flawed? Think again. People will find flaws you never knew existed.
> 
> And you know what? Fuck 'em. Seriously. It's your life. You do what you want with it.


I don't think I am flawed? I don't get that?


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## Optimal Lanzar (Jun 13, 2011)

Cleo said:


> I don't think I am flawed? I don't get that?


 You aren't flawed.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Yozuki Ri said:


> You aren't flawed.


Wow, I really don't understand. Are you being sarcastic?


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## Optimal Lanzar (Jun 13, 2011)

Cleo said:


> Wow, I really don't understand. Are you being sarcastic?


 Sarcasm - Do I look like an ENTP to you?


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Yozuki Ri said:


> Sarcasm - Do I look like an ENTP to you?


Ok, then I will take it as a compliment? Thanks.


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## Optimal Lanzar (Jun 13, 2011)

Cleo said:


> Ok, then I will take it as a compliment? Thanks.


Cleo has just made my friends list.


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## La Belle Dame Sans Merci (Jun 20, 2011)

Cleo said:


> I do know men that value women who don't act like experienced sex animals because they know it was learned with someone else. That is if they care. Your experience in bed doesn't raise your value and a lot of men appreciate innocence.


 
I don't act like an experienced sex animal because I've had a man or two in bed. I'm just glad I've had the different experiences because to be quite frank most of my early sex experience was terrible and if that was my only experience I never would've had a fulfilling sex life with any man, much less my future husband--and in my experience men tend to like when you're actually fulfilled by what they're doing. Of course experience with sex does not raise one's value, but I'm telling you it is more fulfilling in the end. You don't have to sleep around to get this. But I don't believe in waiting until marriage if you're in love. That sounds more like a fear of sex than a moral obligation. Two people who are married in their hearts should not feel bad for being involved physically. And I don't feel bad for enjoying my life every once in a while and being sexually responsible in doing so. 

The idea of a man who values my "innocence" kind of bothers me. He's free to have all the sex he wants but I have to be a virginal flower? Or do you mean virginal on both sides? I knew a couple who never had sex before they got married and they have no idea what they are doing and have had a very unfulfilling sex life as a result. Different experiences helped me to figure out what feels good and what makes men feel good. And because of this, I will one day be a better wife to any husband of mine.


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## Mr.Xl Vii (Jan 19, 2011)

Cleo said:


> I don't know what you mean by that. It would feel pretty shitty to me if I was sharing myself with someone and we claimed to be in a committed relationship and then change their mind later. They have every right to.


I mean relationships come and go. Sort of like friendships. Just because two people grow apart it doesn't necessarily mean it's a negative experience and that it'll negatively affect your emotional health. If anything it will help you grow, but hey what do I know.


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

Cleo said:


> Am I a loser for sticking to my values and waiting to get married again before I have sex? Even though I will probably never meet anybody ideal and worthy enough for me? Even though I dump them for not meeting my demands or scare them away by revealing my intensity as soon as we get started?


Absolutely not. If something should happen to my partner, i could spend the rest of my days using a vibrator, seriously, or at least until i found a new man who i could see a future with.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Mr.Xl Vii said:


> I mean relationships come and go. Sort of like friendships. Just because two people grow apart it doesn't necessarily mean it's a negative experience and that it'll negatively affect your emotional health. If anything it will help you grow, but hey what do I know.


But it can.


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## Mr.Xl Vii (Jan 19, 2011)

Cleo said:


> But it can.


not doing something because something can possibly go wrong doesn't seem like a good way of going about things. You can get hit by a car the next time you cross the street. You can choke the next time you eat a piece of food. I personally think that you shouldn't let that hinder you, but again this is your decision, but I just have a compulsion to argue.


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## Cloudlight (Jan 5, 2011)

Hey there,
I have spent years single and alone because so many around me don't meet what I need. Its not that nobody can meet a standard of yours, just that nobody has offered what you need. My most fulfilling relationship was with an INFJ and i loved the intensity and playful challenging we had. I have gone more than a year and a half without sex and its so incredibly discouraging, but it never makes you a loser or anything less than another.
If anything i think that staying true to your convictions is cool and inspiring, not make you a loser


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Mr.Xl Vii said:


> not doing something because something can possibly go wrong doesn't seem like a good way of going about things. You can get hit by a car the next time you cross the street. You can choke the next time you eat a piece of food. I personally think that you shouldn't let that hinder you, but again this is your decision, but I just have a compulsion to argue.


Its not about something possibly going wrong, it will. I choose to make an emotional attachment with the people I am close to, and especially sex. And honestly, I don't think it is necessarily a choice, but I could take away the emotion by devaluing the act.


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## Mr.Xl Vii (Jan 19, 2011)

Cleo said:


> Its not about something possibly going wrong, it will. I choose to make an emotional attachment with the people I am close to, and especially sex. And honestly, I don't think it is necessarily a choice, but I could take away the emotion by devaluing the act.


I mean something doesn't necessarily have to go wrong. Emotional scars really aren't a bad thing. They toughen you up and let you know what you shouldn't put up with when it comes to your real long term commitment.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Mr.Xl Vii said:


> I mean something doesn't necessarily have to go wrong. Emotional scars really aren't a bad thing. They toughen you up and let you know what you shouldn't put up with when it comes to your real long term commitment.


I don't know about that...


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## La Belle Dame Sans Merci (Jun 20, 2011)

Cleo said:


> I don't know about that...


 
The man I loved most in the entire world left me before we ever got the chance at a relationship and I haven't formed an attachment to any man since then that was more than a fleeting interaction to put a temporary band-aid on the loneliness and I wouldn't take back a single moment of it. I'd be in pain for the rest of my life over him before I'd take back loving him. 

I don't think true love is exactly like they say in the story books these days. But I do believe there is always a happy ending, even if it takes a lifetime to get there.


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## Synthetik (Jun 17, 2011)

Personally, I think that the importance placed on having sex in our culture is ridiculous. This doesn't mean I haven't had it or that I think it isn't important. For me having sex with my ex was placing the ultimate trust in her. To me it is saying here is a piece of me and I am sharing it with you, I am connecting us on an extremely deep level that I won't do with other people. That probably sounds kooky or dumb but having sex with someone is a big huge ginormous deal in my eyes. 

I can not stand how people hook up. This may sound pretty terrible but when I know a person that hooks up on a regular basis I lose a lot of respect for them because they can't respect them self enough to keep their legs closed. 

Since I give sex such a deep meaning it really, really tears me up when that person I gave the ultimate trust to and shared myself with leaves. This is what happened in my most recent relationship. She left to go crazy and hook up. I felt betrayed and it still really bothers me. If you want to read the story it is in the INFJ subforum. its a very very long read though.

I don't think you are a loser for not having a sexual/love life. I really respect you for waiting to find someone that you think will be "the one" If I had any advice about the intensity part it would be don't push it too much in the beginning. Wait to see if it lasts and that you should remember all of us have made mistakes and you shouldn't hold peoples past against them. After All if you really love someone you can get past what they have done and still love them.


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## Bogspirit (Jun 24, 2011)

HELL no! I have been more miserable in "rebound relationships" that were poorly thought out than being alone!
I am watching my ex become more closely involved with the "opposite of me" right now, and they are having foolish teenybopper happy days at the moment, but man, I can see the train wreck it is going to be in about 2 years. *facepalm*


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## Cookie Monster (Nov 6, 2009)

Cleo, thanks for posting this. You are not alone in feeling how you do. It is really hard to meet quality men...I have started easing my way into the dating scene, joined an online dating site...the guys all just seem "OK" but I don't want to settle for "OK" just so I can have a boyfriend, etc...however, it gets lonely sometimes, and as I am approaching 30, it gets harder and harder to meet single people. I had to "friendzone" a guy this week for various reasons (he was OK, but not the right fit for me relationship-wise), and it tore me up because it made me feel like I was being unrealistic...but I would rather be single and lonely at times rather than compromising in a miserable relationship, like my father has done. 

You are not a loser. I have friends who are my age who have never been on a date, and are saving themselves for the right person. I personally do not know how they do not get down about it because I never hear them whine about it. But they are so faithful they will meet the right guy in due time. But they are certainly not losers . I am not the kind of person either who gets frisky real early in a relationship...my goal is to hold out til marriage as a good Christian...but I don't know if I have the strength for that, as my values really waver in that area considering I have seen so many traditional marriages fail and so many unconventional relationships blossom.


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## Paradox of Vigor (Jul 7, 2010)

A loser is someone who loses. If you have not lost, what does that make you?


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## Yardiff Bey (Jun 5, 2011)

Cleo said:


> Am I a loser for sticking to my values and waiting to get married again before I have sex? Even though I will probably never meet anybody ideal and worthy enough for me? Even though I dump them for not meeting my demands or scare them away by revealing my intensity as soon as we get started?


Your values are more important to you than sex with someone who is not ideal or worthy enough for you. Admirable.

Betraying those values would make you a loser. Nothing else will do so.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Lauren Gooch said:


> I don't act like an experienced sex animal because I've had a man or two in bed. I'm just glad I've had the different experiences because to be quite frank most of my early sex experience was terrible and if that was my only experience I never would've had a fulfilling sex life with any man, much less my future husband--and in my experience men tend to like when you're actually fulfilled by what they're doing. Of course experience with sex does not raise one's value, but I'm telling you it is more fulfilling in the end. You don't have to sleep around to get this. But I don't believe in waiting until marriage if you're in love. That sounds more like a fear of sex than a moral obligation. Two people who are married in their hearts should not feel bad for being involved physically. And I don't feel bad for enjoying my life every once in a while and being sexually responsible in doing so.
> 
> The idea of a man who values my "innocence" kind of bothers me. He's free to have all the sex he wants but I have to be a virginal flower? Or do you mean virginal on both sides? I knew a couple who never had sex before they got married and they have no idea what they are doing and have had a very unfulfilling sex life as a result. Different experiences helped me to figure out what feels good and what makes men feel good. And because of this, I will one day be a better wife to any husband of mine.


I don't know how it is more fullfilling to learn it before getting married, when you can learn it when you are married.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Lauren Gooch said:


> I don't act like an experienced sex animal because I've had a man or two in bed. I'm just glad I've had the different experiences because to be quite frank most of my early sex experience was terrible and if that was my only experience I never would've had a fulfilling sex life with any man, much less my future husband--and in my experience men tend to like when you're actually fulfilled by what they're doing. Of course experience with sex does not raise one's value, but I'm telling you it is more fulfilling in the end. You don't have to sleep around to get this. But I don't believe in waiting until marriage if you're in love. That sounds more like a fear of sex than a moral obligation. Two people who are married in their hearts should not feel bad for being involved physically. And I don't feel bad for enjoying my life every once in a while and being sexually responsible in doing so.
> 
> The idea of a man who values my "innocence" kind of bothers me. He's free to have all the sex he wants but I have to be a virginal flower? Or do you mean virginal on both sides? I knew a couple who never had sex before they got married and they have no idea what they are doing and have had a very unfulfilling sex life as a result. Different experiences helped me to figure out what feels good and what makes men feel good. And because of this, I will one day be a better wife to any husband of mine.


I never said he is free to have all of the sex he wants. Never once said that. But I do feel that there is a certain pride in being a woman and keeping our innocence, even to some degree after being married.


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

Of course you're not a loser! Sometimes great people do have trouble finding the right partner for a variety of reasons. Most people wouldn't be able to stand being in a relationship with me, I am sure. I'm in a relationship with someone whose issues are compatible with mine. I also originally thought I would wait until marriage to have sex, but like you, I had doubts I would find someone to marry. I eventually started having sexual relationships before marriage because I had major fears of sex and a lot of sexual issues and I wanted to start working on overcoming them. To me that was easiest by having sexual relationships and working on them, but it was always with someone I loved.


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## La Belle Dame Sans Merci (Jun 20, 2011)

Cleo said:


> I don't know how it is more fullfilling to learn it before getting married, when you can learn it when you are married.


 
You don't learn it as well from one person as you would from different people. Thats what I'm getting at. And I'd highly recommend this for a man as well. If I'd married the first man I had sex with, neither of us ever would've had a fulfilling sex life because both of us didn't have the first clue what we were doing and never would've figured it out by ourselves. Not to mention that man and I were a terrible match sexually--the compatibility just wasn't there. So it would've been a constant problem in the marriage.


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## La Belle Dame Sans Merci (Jun 20, 2011)

Cleo said:


> I never said he is free to have all of the sex he wants. Never once said that. But I do feel that there is a certain pride in being a woman and keeping our innocence, even to some degree after being married.


To be honest, the idea of being "innocent" is disturbing to me. I wouldn't want to have to be innocent. I'd rather match my husband as an equal in the bedroom and otherwise. I've never heard a man declare he'd rather have his woman innocent and pure--and if he did I'd wonder at his motivation. I am not to be controlled. And not being perfectly innocent does not make one a tramp. 

Its good to have values and stick to them, but in my opinion, yours are very youthful. They remind me of how I thought when I was fifteen. Not just the values themselves, but the way you argue them. You will not have my sympathy.


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## RRRoooaaaRRR (Jun 18, 2011)

> But I do feel that there is a certain pride in being a woman and keeping our innocence,


I find this strange. It makes it sound like a woman should be innocent - and (that implies) subservient - to a man. I will speak my truth. I adore having a sexual relationship within a commited relationship - in this sort of scenario the depths of passion when met with an intellectual connection are mind blowing. 
I have absolutely no interest whatsoever and place no value on innocence. I have had long term relationships that have been relatively mediocre sexually, no sensuality. I have had long term relationships that have been sexually very powerful. And I have had short term relationships that have been a wow sexually and very satisfying.
I have also chosen at times to be celibate. I would never marry someone before checking them out sexually end off )


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

I personally don't have an issue with the word "innocent" and see it as a positive quality -- I just don't associate it with sexuality, I associate it with a pureness of heart. Some of my friends I think are very innocent -- both male and female.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Lauren Gooch said:


> To be honest, the idea of being "innocent" is disturbing to me. I wouldn't want to have to be innocent. I'd rather match my husband as an equal in the bedroom and otherwise. I've never heard a man declare he'd rather have his woman innocent and pure--and if he did I'd wonder at his motivation. I am not to be controlled. And not being perfectly innocent does not make one a tramp.
> 
> Its good to have values and stick to them, but in my opinion, yours are very youthful. They remind me of how I thought when I was fifteen. Not just the values themselves, but the way you argue them. You will not have my sympathy.


Sympthathy? Sympathy for what? That was rude. I don't know why you are bringing up words like tramp. That is one example of what I am referring to when I say innocent, as in to not hold the weight of being hostile towards somebody who wants to maintain their youth.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

unico said:


> I personally don't have an issue with the word "innocent" and see it as a positive quality -- I just don't associate it with sexuality, I associate it with a pureness of heart. Some of my friends I think are very innocent -- both male and female.


Wow Unico, you said it.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

RRRoooaaaRRR said:


> I find this strange. It makes it sound like a woman should be innocent - and (that implies) subservient - to a man. I will speak my truth. I adore having a sexual relationship within a commited relationship - in this sort of scenario the depths of passion when met with an intellectual connection are mind blowing.
> I have absolutely no interest whatsoever and place no value on innocence. I have had long term relationships that have been relatively mediocre sexually, no sensuality. I have had long term relationships that have been sexually very powerful. And I have had short term relationships that have been a wow sexually and very satisfying.
> I have also chosen at times to be celibate. I would never marry someone before checking them out sexually end off )


I can see by the confidence in some men and their level of passion that I wouldn't have to worry about checking them out first. I guess you and me differ in that I would love to be subserviant to a man. Men love it. They might say they don't, but when they experience let me tell you... It makes them feel masculine and powerful and gives a feeling that they are trusted. To some degree I try to make all men around me feel that way.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Lauren Gooch said:


> You don't learn it as well from one person as you would from different people. Thats what I'm getting at. And I'd highly recommend this for a man as well. If I'd married the first man I had sex with, neither of us ever would've had a fulfilling sex life because both of us didn't have the first clue what we were doing and never would've figured it out by ourselves. Not to mention that man and I were a terrible match sexually--the compatibility just wasn't there. So it would've been a constant problem in the marriage.


So your concern is more so the physical act?


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## La Belle Dame Sans Merci (Jun 20, 2011)

Cleo said:


> I can see by the confidence in some men and their level of passion that I wouldn't have to worry about checking them out first. I guess you and me differ in that I would love to be subserviant to a man. Men love it. They might say they don't, but when they experience let me tell you... It makes them feel masculine and powerful and gives a feeling that they are trusted. To some degree I try to make all men around me feel that way.


 
I find subservience to a man kind of offensive. I love going out of my way to cook and care for the men in my life--but thats because I love them. Not because they're my master.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Lauren Gooch said:


> I find subservience to a man kind of offensive. I love going out of my way to cook and care for the men in my life--but thats because I love them. Not because they're my master.


Never said master.


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## RRRoooaaaRRR (Jun 18, 2011)

Cleo said:


> I can see by the confidence in some men and their level of passion that I wouldn't have to worry about checking them out first. I guess you and me differ in that I would love to be subserviant to a man. Men love it. They might say they don't, but when they experience let me tell you... It makes them feel masculine and powerful and gives a feeling that they are trusted. To some degree I try to make all men around me feel that way.


I am not interested in a man who is not stronger than me - but that is different from subservience. I see men and women as equal overall but also having complimentary differences .. and I say vive la difference. I wouldn`t marry a man without having `tested` them sexually. Men often appear strong but are not - it is just bravado and men can be physically and mentally strong but hopeless sexually. Lots of men do indeed love women to be subservient - and that`s because they can`t hack it with a woman who isn`t. In any case they can love subservient women all they like - they don`t get me though  .. I`m out of reach for them.


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## La Belle Dame Sans Merci (Jun 20, 2011)

Cleo said:


> So your concern is more so the physical act?


I don't know what you mean by this exactly.

Sex is an important component of long lasting relationships. Physicality is an important component of relationships as well. Pardon my vulgarity here, but if you lay there and let him have what he wants but he can't make you finish or you fake enjoyment, it is not as enjoyable to the man. Better to have an equal partnership where you meet each other's needs. 

If a man enjoys your subservience, I tend to think he's not right in the head. And wanting to be subserservient doesn't strike me as healthy mentally either. I just don't think this is a healthy expression of love.


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## La Belle Dame Sans Merci (Jun 20, 2011)

Cleo said:


> Never said master.


Subservience implies the "master" of the household, doesn't it? The woman does the cleaning and cooking and child rearing and defers to her man for the decisions.


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## La Belle Dame Sans Merci (Jun 20, 2011)

Cleo said:


> Sympthathy? Sympathy for what? That was rude. I don't know why you are bringing up words like tramp. That is one example of what I am referring to when I say innocent, as in to not hold the weight of being hostile towards somebody who wants to maintain their youth.



I used this word because I feel like that was the point of this whole post. I could be wrong. But my INFJ sense is tingling and it said this post was more for getting attention for being "innocent" than for actually hearing views and opinions. I was trying to find the least rude way possible to state this. It is the language you use that gives me this impression. And the way you listen when you read gave me the impression of youth.

Your attitude to me implied that you are the sort who would think it "trampish" to have sex with a man you're not passionately miserably in love with. If I was wrong in using that word, I apologize, but this is the judgement I have for this whole post.

"Not hold the weight of being hostile toward somebody who wants to maintain their youth"? I'm not sure what that sentence was supposed to mean or what it has to do with innocence. I don't really think I'm "hostile." I just think you're dead wrong and unwilling to hear anything against your decisions which devalues this whole post to my mind.


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## RRRoooaaaRRR (Jun 18, 2011)

unico said:


> I personally don't have an issue with the word "innocent" and see it as a positive quality -- I just don't associate it with sexuality, I associate it with a pureness of heart. Some of my friends I think are very innocent -- both male and female.


There is nothing innocent in ignorance. There is innocence in experience though. 
A metaphor: There were two monks living in a monastry and they had sworn celibacy. This initial commitment had a spiritual base to it, that is to say sexuality is distracting. However, as happens with virtually all second hand faiths it turns into a dogma, gets twisted and loses its essence of truth and original intention. This monastry became fearful of even setting eyes on a family photo that had a woman on it. One day two of these monks were out walking, then passed through a small wood and turned to walk along the stream. As they turned a woman called to them `oh than god, thank god, I desperatly need to get to the other side of the stream, my mother is dying and I am so small and I can`t swim. I prayed to god for help and there you came. Please help me to the other side.

One of the monks walked over to her swept her up in his arms and waded across the stream and set her down the other side. On his return the other monk was hysterical `how could you do that?` ... everything we stand for, have you no shame? on and on he went, chastising this monk ... he continued for 30 mins until the time came were they usually turned round and walked back to the monastry. By this time the monk who was hysterical had run out of insults and chastisements. Up until then the other monk had just nodded. When finally the other monk was quiet the monk who had helped the woman said to him `You have been carrying that woman for 30 mins and continue to carry her - I put her down half an hour ago`


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Lauren Gooch said:


> I don't know what you mean by this exactly.
> 
> Sex is an important component of long lasting relationships. Physicality is an important component of relationships as well. Pardon my vulgarity here, but if you lay there and let him have what he wants but he can't make you finish or you fake enjoyment, it is not as enjoyable to the man. Better to have an equal partnership where you meet each other's needs.
> 
> If a man enjoys your subservience, I tend to think he's not right in the head. And wanting to be subserservient doesn't strike me as healthy mentally either. I just don't think this is a healthy expression of love.


Where do you get the idea that because other people's desires are different from your's that it is unhealthy? Whoever said that I would lay there and let him do it and then need to fake it? It starts with passion and the rest follows, but you can't get passion from skills.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

RRRoooaaaRRR said:


> There is nothing innocent in ignorance. There is innocence in experience though.
> A metaphor: There were two monks living in a monastry and they had sworn celibacy. This initial commitment had a spiritual base to it, that is to say sexuality is distracting. However, as happens with virtually all second hand faiths it turns into a dogma, gets twisted and loses its essence of truth and original intention. This monastry became fearful of even setting eyes on a family photo that had a woman on it. One day two of these monks were out walking, then passed through a small wood and turned to walk along the stream. As they turned a woman called to them `oh than god, thank god, I desperatly need to get to the other side of the stream, my mother is dying and I am so small and I can`t swim. I prayed to god for help and there you came. Please help me to the other side.
> 
> One of the monks walked over to her swept her up in his arms and waded across the stream and set her down the other side. On his return the other monk was hysterical `how could you do that?` ... everything we stand for, have you no shame? on and on he went, chastising this monk ... he continued for 30 mins until the time came were they usually turned round and walked back to the monastry. By this time the monk who was hysterical had run out of insults and chastisements. Up until then the other monk had just nodded. When finally the other monk was quiet the monk who had helped the woman said to him `You have been carrying that woman for 30 mins and continue to carry her - I put her down half an hour ago`


That is so rude. I can't even believe you are using that story in relation to this topic. I wonder why people are so hostile with this topic... Could it be hitting an insecurity, jealousy, rejection?


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## La Belle Dame Sans Merci (Jun 20, 2011)

Cleo said:


> Where do you get the idea that because other people's desires are different from your's that it is unhealthy? Whoever said that I would lay there and let him do it and then need to fake it? You've got me all wrong, but I am trying not to brag. It starts with passion and the rest follows, but you can't get passion from skills.


I agree that the best sex starts with passion. Unfortunately I never had the experience of sex with the man I felt most passionately about whom I felt stood the best chance of showing passion for me. Its possible I have simply misunderstood you. But this is the impression you are putting out. Subservient is a pretty nasty word to my mind.


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## La Belle Dame Sans Merci (Jun 20, 2011)

Cleo said:


> That is so rude. I can't even believe you are using that story in relation to this topic. I wonder why people are so hostile with this topic... Could it be hitting an insecurity, jealousy, rejection?


 
I believe this is much more rude and a less educated statement than the one RRRoooaaaRRR was kind enough to share.


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## RRRoooaaaRRR (Jun 18, 2011)

Cleo said:


> That is so rude. I can't even believe you are using that story in relation to this topic. I wonder why people are so hostile with this topic... Could it be hitting an insecurity, jealousy, rejection?


How is that rude and what is wrong with using this metaphor in this topic?


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Lauren Gooch said:


> I used this word because I feel like that was the point of this whole post. I could be wrong. But my INFJ sense is tingling and it said this post was more for getting attention for being "innocent" than for actually hearing views and opinions. I was trying to find the least rude way possible to state this. It is the language you use that gives me this impression. And the way you listen when you read gave me the impression of youth.
> 
> Your attitude to me implied that you are the sort who would think it "trampish" to have sex with a man you're not passionately miserably in love with. If I was wrong in using that word, I apologize, but this is the judgement I have for this whole post.
> 
> "Not hold the weight of being hostile toward somebody who wants to maintain their youth"? I'm not sure what that sentence was supposed to mean or what it has to do with innocence. I don't really think I'm "hostile." I just think you're dead wrong and unwilling to hear anything against your decisions which devalues this whole post to my mind.


Actually, I made this post because I was feeling down and hopeless. I may have a tendency to judge people for their decisions, but for the most part I would say no, I could have considered you a friend either way, until you became rude. But yes I do take some pride in the decisions that I make and the fact that nobody can call me derrogatory sexual names and worry that it may be true. I am not willing to take anything you say seriously, because you have been insulting from the get go. What would be wrong with wanting sympathy? But then you say attention. I am confused, but either way, the post did no harm to you, so you really have no excuse. Your insecurities should not be used to offend others. The fact that I don't want to listen to every person's response does not devalue the entire post, because I did get some helpful answers.


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## Optimal Lanzar (Jun 13, 2011)

Hey Cleo, you wanna go out on a date later?


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Lauren Gooch said:


> I believe this is much more rude and a less educated statement than the one RRRoooaaaRRR was kind enough to share.


Oh, because you have shown yourself to be very educated and insightful. And how is it uneducated? The fact that I am curious to know why someone would be this way. This is halarious.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

RRRoooaaaRRR said:


> How is that rude and what is wrong with using this metaphor in this topic?


You just referred to someone else's choices which makes them feel good and causes no harm as ignorant. Are you serious...?


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## NekoNinja (Apr 18, 2010)

I'm too lazy to read the entire thread and someone asked me to give my opinion... so what exactly is the problem here? It doesn't seem like this is the same as what was being discussed originally.....


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## RRRoooaaaRRR (Jun 18, 2011)

> You just referred to someone else's choices which makes them feel good and causes no harm as ignorant. Are you serious...?


I most certainly did not. Read the quote I was refering to.


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## RRRoooaaaRRR (Jun 18, 2011)

unico said:


> I think the issue is different interpretations of the word innocence. I do not see your view of the word innocence as a more accurate view than mine. If you can quote a good dictionary stating that innocence only applies when ignorance applies or not helping applies, I will reconsider my view.


Indeed and it is the context of the use of the word innocent by Cleo that is relevant and what you were responding to and what I then went on to respond to:



> Cleo: But I do feel that there is a certain pride in being a woman and keeping our innocence,





> unico: I personally don't have an issue with the word "innocent" and see it as a positive quality -- I just don't associate it with sexuality, I associate it with a pureness of heart. Some of my friends I think are very innocent -- both male and female.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

RRRoooaaaRRR said:


> Indeed and it is the context of the use of the word innocent by Cleo that is relevant and what you were responding to and what I then went on to respond to:


You are right, in that specific statement I made only. Intimacy can be one aspect of innocence, which is part of the bigger picture.


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## RRRoooaaaRRR (Jun 18, 2011)

Cleo there is nothing wrong in anyone deciding to remain celibate until marriage and also there is nothing wrong with someone deciding not to. It is not a right or wrong - it is a choice. My concern is that you don`t look to build up your own strength and self assurance so that you can fulfil all that you dream of. 
Your emphasis on your looks again is a choice - and I certainly admire anyone - male or female - who looks after their appearance - but I am aware that I see hints of you using that as your face to the world when I would like to feel more that you felt fully able to manifest completely who you are - whatever that may be. Trust your own inner core and counsel and adjust it as you see fit. 
By all means marry someone who is the breadwinner and you are the homekeeper - absolutely nothing wrong with that in my book. My concern is that you will end up marrying someone who will take advantage and use you. That is me just voicing my concern and it doesn`t mean what I think I sense is what is.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

RRRoooaaaRRR said:


> Cleo there is nothing wrong in anyone deciding to remain celibate until marriage and also there is nothing wrong with someone deciding not to. It is not a right or wrong - it is a choice. My concern is that you don`t look to build up your own strength and self assurance so that you can fulfil all that you dream of.
> Your emphasis on your looks again is a choice - and I certainly admire anyone - male or female - who looks after their appearance - but I am aware that I see hints of you using that as your face to the world when I would like to feel more that you felt fully able to manifest completely who you are - whatever that may be. Trust your own inner core and counsel and adjust it as you see fit.
> By all means marry someone who is the breadwinner and you are the homekeeper - absolutely nothing wrong with that in my book. My concern is that you will end up marrying someone who will take advantage and use you. That is me just voicing my concern and it doesn`t mean what I think I sense is what is.


I disagree that there is nothing wrong with it, of course, but I will definately accept your take.


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## Optimal Lanzar (Jun 13, 2011)

Cleo, if you keep this up your wings will turn black.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Yozuki Ri said:


> Cleo, if you keep this up your wings will turn black.


They already are, that is a photocropped.


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## Optimal Lanzar (Jun 13, 2011)

Cleo said:


> They already are, that is a photocropped.


 Take my hand and walk with me in the valley of shadow.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Yozuki Ri said:


> Take my hand and walk with me in the valley of shadow.


"...the shadow of death"? Where does that question mark go in this situation?


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## La Belle Dame Sans Merci (Jun 20, 2011)

Cleo said:


> Actually, I made this post because I was feeling down and hopeless. I may have a tendency to judge people for their decisions, but for the most part I would say no, I could have considered you a friend either way, until you became rude. But yes I do take some pride in the decisions that I make and the fact that nobody can call me derrogatory sexual names and worry that it may be true. I am not willing to take anything you say seriously, because you have been insulting from the get go. What would be wrong with wanting sympathy? But then you say attention. I am confused, but either way, the post did no harm to you, so you really have no excuse. Your insecurities should not be used to offend others. The fact that I don't want to listen to every person's response does not devalue the entire post, because I did get some helpful answers.


 
It was more the way that you responded to me rudely from the start because I disagreed with you and you're young and judgmental. I'm older and judgmental. I am trying to impart to you what I know from my experiences. You can call them insulting if you wish, but I believe you are the one who is insecure, and probably lonely, and probably in high school or middle school with nobody to speak to because you're quiet and the other kids are cruel or ignore you entirely. I was there once. I have my own breed of insecurity but it is not this. And I don't believe you should hold yourself in such high esteem for being sexually pure. If anything, hold yourself in high esteem for being INFJ and a kindly individual. But you would come off more intelligent to my mind if you were a better argumentative writer. I understand this topic is personal, but being able to argue well is a strong sign of intelligence to me.

I think your having morals is a wonderful thing, but I believe you are taking it too far. If you're as young as I imagine you to be, thats alright--being that age one shouldn't be very sexually experienced, its too young. But don't judge the rest of us cruelly for it. You might just be one of us one day. And if not, I wish you'd at least consider the notion that sex is not evil or impure. Its a lovely interaction that can be as meaningful as you make it and is a normal delightful part of life when viewed from a healthy standpoint. 

You personalize a lot of things RRRoooaaaRRR and I have said that would have been impersonal otherwise. This is part of what makes me dissuaded by your argumentative capacity.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Lauren Gooch said:


> It was more the way that you responded to me rudely from the start because I disagreed with you and you're young and judgmental. I'm older and judgmental. I am trying to impart to you what I know from my experiences. You can call them insulting if you wish, but I believe you are the one who is insecure, and probably lonely, and probably in high school or middle school with nobody to speak to because you're quiet and the other kids are cruel or ignore you entirely. I was there once. I have my own breed of insecurity but it is not this. And I don't believe you should hold yourself in such high esteem for being sexually pure. If anything, hold yourself in high esteem for being INFJ and a kindly individual. But you would come off more intelligent to my mind if you were a better argumentative writer. I understand this topic is personal, but being able to argue well is a strong sign of intelligence to me.
> 
> I think your having morals is a wonderful thing, but I believe you are taking it too far. If you're as young as I imagine you to be, thats alright--being that age one shouldn't be very sexually experienced, its too young. But don't judge the rest of us cruelly for it. You might just be one of us one day. And if not, I wish you'd at least consider the notion that sex is not evil or impure. Its a lovely interaction that can be as meaningful as you make it and is a normal delightful part of life when viewed from a healthy standpoint.
> 
> You personalize a lot of things RRRoooaaaRRR and I have said that would have been impersonal otherwise. This is part of what makes me dissuaded by your argumentative capacity.


Once again, that was really rude. And still, I do not see how my response was rude. Now, I am definately going to push it though. 

I should learn to be a better arguer and a nicer INFJ like yourself? 

Nobody liked you when you were younger? 

I really don't care if you think I should hold myself in high esteem or not, because as you can see, I will anyway, at least in comparison to some people. 

Never said sex was evil or impure. 

I like how you say what people should or shouldn't do. Based on what?

I personalize things, but you are the one throwing around insults. So I should consider having sex? Oh but then you say not to, because I am so young. Which is it? Or is it being used as an opportunity to provide another offense. I can't even take what you are saying as personal, because I have no respect for it. I probably shouldn't add this because it is just going to throw fuel to the fire, but I want to show you how you are acting. I thought you sounded like an insecure girl in her early twenties maybe a teenager when you were talking about how being skilled will bring more to a marriage. It just sounded like some girls gone wild comment. But I must not have been too unkindly of an individual if I didn't say it, but you did take a punch at maturity. 

It is good etiquette to be asked for a critique before you provide.


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## La Belle Dame Sans Merci (Jun 20, 2011)

Cleo said:


> Once again, that was really rude. And still, I do not see how my response was rude. Now, I am definately going to push it though.
> 
> I should learn to be a better arguer and a nicer INFJ like yourself.
> 
> ...


 

You asked for a critique the moment you cast your personal issues onto an online forum. 

Pardon me, oh wise and pure lady, for disagreeing with your obviously well thought out and charming opinion. And with respect, I will now decline to continue this conversation.

Have a lovely evening, and get bent.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Lauren Gooch said:


> You asked for a critique the moment you cast your personal issues onto an online forum.
> 
> Pardon me, oh wise and pure lady, for disagreeing with your obviously well thought out and charming opinion. And with respect, I will now decline to continue this conversation.
> 
> Have a lovely evening, and get bent.


Didn't ask for a critique. Maybe you should learn to read better. Thank you for finally leaving.


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## Eerie (Feb 9, 2011)

Lauren Gooch said:


> You asked for a critique the moment you cast your personal issues onto an online forum.
> 
> Pardon me, oh wise and pure lady, for disagreeing with your obviously well thought out and charming opinion. And with respect, I will now decline to continue this conversation.
> 
> Have a lovely evening, and get bent.


Just curious....is that really your name?


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Eerie said:


> Just curious....is that really your name?


Hahahahhahaha. It's on the worldwide web! Sorry, I'll stop.


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## Eerie (Feb 9, 2011)

Cleo said:


> Hahahahhahaha. It's on the worldwide web! Sorry, I'll stop.


lulz, were you thinking what I was thinking?


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Eerie said:


> lulz, were you thinking what I was thinking?


I think so.


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## soulsearch (Apr 6, 2011)

Hey.. There's quite a few pages here but I didn't bother flicking through them all. All I saw was a little bit of arguing, and I dislike that for you were only asking a question. Personally, I dont find anything you said in your original post bad... You have high idealistic views, want something/someone worth while, have morals... Thats not wrong. I too have been considered picky when it comes to relationships, don't feel horrible for dumping them because it would have ended anyway if it wasn't right. I admire you for holding yourself back, even in this society. If you fall in love, then you fall in love.. You don't have to have relationships for the heck of having one. However, If you fear being alone then get to meet new people and potential partners without making a commitment or doing anything with them. Thats all, hope what I said was still somewhat relevant.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

RRRoooaaaRRR said:


> I am not interested in a man who is not stronger than me - but that is different from subservience. I see men and women as equal overall but also having complimentary differences .. and I say vive la difference. I wouldn`t marry a man without having `tested` them sexually. Men often appear strong but are not - it is just bravado and men can be physically and mentally strong but hopeless sexually. Lots of men do indeed love women to be subservient - and that`s because they can`t hack it with a woman who isn`t. In any case they can love subservient women all they like - they don`t get me though  .. I`m out of reach for them.


How can a woman who is subserviant to her husband not hack it with women who aren't? I have a powerful and dominant role in what I do now for a living, something that most women I work with have not even tried to achieve. That has to do with confidence, not personal relationships.


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## Arbite (Dec 26, 2010)

Cleo said:


> I can see by the confidence in some men and their level of passion that I wouldn't have to worry about checking them out first. I guess you and me differ in that I would love to be subserviant to a man. Men love it. They might say they don't, but when they experience let me tell you... It makes them feel masculine and powerful and gives a feeling that they are trusted. To some degree I try to make all men around me feel that way.


I don't love having a woman who is subservient to me. I abhor the idea actually, I want a partner who is my equal, who I can ask to do things for me, and who can ask me to do things for them. I don't feel the need for a woman to make me feel masculine, that implies a certain insecurity on the mans side if he needs a woman to make him feel that way.



Cleo said:


> It starts with passion and the rest follows, but you can't get passion from skills.


Not all relationships start with passion. My current one started with two awkward people who were afraid to approach one another and then we went for a date and it grew from there. To quote scrubs: "Like can lead to _like_ like, and _like_ like can lead to love".

I would also say that skills in bed can help with passion. From the fumbling around in bed of two teenagers to the passionate experience that two experienced lovers can share.



Cleo said:


> I disagree that there is nothing wrong with it, of course, but I will definately accept your take.


What would you percieve as wrong with sex before marriage?


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## Optimal Lanzar (Jun 13, 2011)

Cleo said:


> How can a woman who is subserviant to her husband not hack it with women who aren't? I have a powerful and dominant role in what I do now for a living, something that most women I work with have not even tried to achieve. That has to do with confidence, not personal relationships.


 You claim power and dominance, but you also use rapport and assertiveness, both of which are considered key traits in a relationship. However, you also claim power and dominance. You assume the role of husband and wife.

What role could a husband in your life possibly fill?


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Yozuki Ri said:


> You claim power and dominance, but you also use rapport and assertiveness, both of which are considered key traits in a relationship. However, you also claim power and dominance. You assume the role of husband and wife.
> 
> What role could a husband in your life possibly fill?


Well, I don't take that power trip home. I try not to go too far with it at work either. Ideally I would like to have a job where I can maintain a steady nurturing role in society and at home. Like social work or counseling. So he would still be the head honcho. I would look to him to give me encouragement, to build my confidence, and I would only marry him if I trusted him, therefore I would do whatever he tells me to do. I would also only marry him if I know he will listen to my concerns, care for me, and more so make good decisions that are in our best interest. So we will have to have mostly the same life goal, but contribute differently. We both have to know where we are willing to compromise and where we can't.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Arbite said:


> I don't love having a woman who is subservient to me. I abhor the idea actually, I want a partner who is my equal, who I can ask to do things for me, and who can ask me to do things for them. I don't feel the need for a woman to make me feel masculine, that implies a certain insecurity on the mans side if he needs a woman to make him feel that way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The fact that you are sharing yourself with someone, and then your future wife having to take that burden. The fact that you make yourself idle in a sexual relationship, that may be preventing you to go further in your life and may keep you from meeting someone who is exceptionally perfect for you. The fact that there is a woman out there that may really need you, but you are tied down to something that isn't really going anywhere.

Okay, I guess in my situation, passion is my priority. I will not be interested in someone if their is no intense mutual passion. It happens for me pretty quickly if it happens at all. So in your type of situation, if that is not your first priority or pattern you see in yourself, then for the moment I don't have an answer.

I didn't say I couldn't ask for something back. As a matter of fact, I can be quite demanding, but I have a way of going about it.

So maybe not all men like someone who is subserviant, but the type of man I like does. Just because it is something that you do not find joy in, doesn't mean it is an insecurity. Also, I can't tell you how many men probably think that, but don't realize... Do you like to open doors? Do you like when she waits for you take the lead, and lets you take charge of the things going around you two?


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## Optimal Lanzar (Jun 13, 2011)

Cleo you're leaking.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Also, when I say subserviant, I do not mean that he will just abusively boss me around all day. I mean that I will respect him for the hard work he does and show him appreciation by doing whatever I can to help. 

Whether you are Christian or not you can find wisdom in the Bible just like you can from other religions and great philosophers. I can't remember where I read this, I think it was in Isaiah. It says that women want to be loved and men want to be respected. I think about that a lot.


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## Optimal Lanzar (Jun 13, 2011)

Cleo said:


> Also, when I say subserviant, I do not mean that he will just abusively boss me around all day. I mean that I will respect him for the hard work he does and show him appreciation by doing whatever I can to help.
> 
> Whether you are Christian or not you can find wisdom in the Bible just like you can from other religions and great philosophers. I can't remember where I read this, I think it was in Isaiah. It says that women want to be loved and men want to be respected. I think about that a lot.


 Are you done going off on a tangent?


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Yozuki Ri said:


> Are you done going off on a tangent?


Well I don't think I was on a tangent, but whatever you want to call it, I suppose so.


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## Arbite (Dec 26, 2010)

Cleo said:


> Do you like to open doors?


Not at all. In fact, when I build my house I'm putting revolving doors EVERYWHERE!



Cleo said:


> Do you like when she waits for you take the lead, and lets you take charge of the things going around you two?


I can honestly say I don't enjoy doing that. I'm incompetant when it comes to doing that stuff.


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## Optimal Lanzar (Jun 13, 2011)

Cleo said:


> Well I don't think I was on a tangent, but whatever you want to call it, I suppose so.


Good, I'm going to bed. Don't make an ass of yourself while I'm gone.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

Yozuki Ri said:


> Good, I'm going to bed. Don't make an ass of yourself while I'm gone.


Yes Daddy, I'll try... to not help someone else make an ass of theirself. Hahahaha


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## mgilmartin (May 13, 2011)

Cleo said:


> Am I a loser for sticking to my values and waiting to get married again before I have sex? Even though I will probably never meet anybody ideal and worthy enough for me? Even though I dump them for not meeting my demands or scare them away by revealing my intensity as soon as we get started?


Maybe you are. But if you are, then that makes me a loser too. But I'm an INTJ, so I rarely even have reason to consider jumping into the dating world, much less the world of casual sex. So at least you're not alone. I'm a Christian and I really believe human sexual instinct is corrupted. I'd rather do sex the way I believe is right than another way that society thinks I should do it.


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## wikitiki10 (Jun 26, 2011)

Well if your goal is to have a love life but give up, forever, in trying to attain one then that makes you a loser. Because you lost...

However, that is not your goal so you're not a loser. You didn't "lose" anything.


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## ProfessorLiver (Mar 19, 2011)

Cleo said:


> I never said I wasn't married... Are you gettin upset?


Not really. I'm getting amused. Because the word "again" implies...yeeeeeeeah.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

MisterLiver said:


> Not really. I'm getting amused. Because the word "again" implies...yeeeeeeeah.


What are you talking about? Again what? Why are you worried about a previous marriage, especially in this thread? Plenty of people have screwed up like that or worst and made the same mistake over and over again and get up and move on. Who cares. This isn't an invited topic.

Are you still following me?


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## ProfessorLiver (Mar 19, 2011)

Cleo said:


> What are you talking about? Again what? Why are you worried about a previous marriage, especially in this thread? Plenty of people have screwed up like that or worst and made the same mistake over and over again and get up and move on. Who cares. This isn't an invited topic.
> 
> Are you still following me?


So is English not your first language? If it is, then


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

MisterLiver said:


> So is English not your first language? If it is, then


You are still following me. Is that the best you could do to make up for not making sense?


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## ProfessorLiver (Mar 19, 2011)

Cleo said:


> You are still following me. Is that the best you could do to make up for not making sense?


Oh, I see.


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## barathrum (Jun 6, 2011)

I held off on sex for a long time for a few reasons:
1) fat kid when young
2) nerdy/introvert
3) with ridiculously high standards (I like good people, how rare)

When I got older and grew out of baby fat into my adult form, I still viewed the world through the eyes of a nerdy fat kid. When I was 22, I met some people who thought it was absolutely insane that I was a virgin (I was open about it when asked). They asked for what reason did I hold out for so long, religion? No, it wasn't that. It was hard to explain that I was picky to a vault about the people I let in and wanted the first person I was with to be something special, at least a person I was attracted to. They proceeded to try and get me laid in the most awkward series of events for the next few months. I eventually found a girl, randomly by myself, who I thought was cool like myself (into books and indie music) but turned out to be crazy. I think the threesome experiment was were it all went wrong (she had a girlfriend on the side after I pushed her away a few times), too many drugs and bad decisions...but I digress.

It was getting to be extremely stressful being on the outside of what most people consider normal, so finally being with someone made me feel like I "fit in" more. In the end, I was grateful for the experience if only to know what I never want again. First person I slept with, I thought I had a common thread (books, intelligence, logical thinking) but no...there was no common thread. I only regret that of all the persons I have slept with, I have connected with none of them. They were only in my life for sex and most didn't like me bluntly saying so any time they asked.


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## RRRoooaaaRRR (Jun 18, 2011)

Cleo said:


> How can a woman who is subserviant to her husband not hack it with women who aren't? I have a powerful and dominant role in what I do now for a living, something that most women I work with have not even tried to achieve. That has to do with confidence, not personal relationships.


Where have I said that? You quote the following post by me: 



> I am not interested in a man who is not stronger than me - but that is different from subservience. I see men and women as equal overall but also having complimentary differences .. and I say vive la difference. I wouldn`t marry a man without having `tested` them sexually. Men often appear strong but are not - it is just bravado and men can be physically and mentally strong but hopeless sexually. Lots of men do indeed love women to be subservient - and that`s because they can`t hack it with a woman who isn`t. In any case they can love subservient women all they like - they don`t get me though  .. I`m out of reach for them.


Where in there does it say what you say I said ?


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## RRRoooaaaRRR (Jun 18, 2011)

Originally Posted by *Cleo*  
Hahahahhahaha. It's on the worldwide web! Sorry, I'll stop.






Eerie said:


> lulz, were you thinking what I was thinking?


 
I will be very blunt: I find both of your attitudes and joking back and forth on this abhorent and totally lacking in style, common decency and trustworthiness. This interaction between you both about another member I find sickening.


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## scarygirl (Aug 12, 2010)

A person with values is not a loser.


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

Ooookay time to get back on topic.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

RRRoooaaaRRR said:


> Nope don`t need my approval and that is you yet again projecting your own stuff onto the situation. I found your interaction with EErie on this unaceceptable. You obviously think it ok and so does Eerie - I don`t.
> 
> Cleo I have made it clear I am not interested in your posts anymore. I responded to this OP and another OP because I found the question(S) interesting. Since then I have learnt that they are not questions at all, just statements of your view - which is of course (as I have stated before) your choice and not right or wrong. Nobody here has said you were wrong to hold that view but some have given a different view. Given that you asked a question on the OP it is reasonable that people assume you want a take on it. If you don`t want a take then state it as your confirmed belief and don`t invite discussion around it. You asked a question you got views and answers in response. You will be pleased to know that you can post and ask away anything from here on in and know that I won`t be interested in contributing.


Circles and circles and circles. I am tempted to respond for any readers who chime in last minute, but just look back to the past five pages.


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## cheyenna (Jan 23, 2011)

Loser, winner, etc.. it's not a game really is it? It seems a little self-victimizing to even put it that way. It's not really something you have to look down on OR be proud of. Just think of it as more like a long term goal. If sex can wait (shu'p clowns!) and you can wait and it doesn't bother you, why does that make you anything other than just you? It doesn't define YOU does it? So it can't really MAKE you anything. Oh the technicalities...

The innocence thing was a little creepy though. Babies and kids are innocent, well in reality no one is truly innocent. I think that sexuality is the opposite of being innocent, since it's "carnal knowledge" and all, and there's nothing wrong with it. It's natural and well.. it's part of being human. Why deny it? Nothing wrong with waiting for the right mate or whatever you want to call it, but it's still just a physical act (sure, go ahead and have emotions about it, it's your experience, up to you) and I think if you place too much emphasis on NOT having sex, you're going to end up with some really bad tension headaches, haha.. joking, sorry..

Okay, but about the ideal person.. this really is _probably_ something that just can't happen and eventually it will be the 'compromised' ideal person. You should try going out with someone who has even higher standards to even things out, haha.. Okay no, but there could always be a sort of okay looking guy with an amazing personality who's open to having plastic surgery, yaaay! :laughing: My real point is, there is no gun to your head forcing you to settle for something you don't want, so you don't really have to worry about it do you? It's probably not going to have too many negative repercussions on your life that I can think of, unless you miss an opportunity of getting to know someone because of a possibly small perceived flaw.

About the intensity thing, not everyone is going to be bothered by this, depending on what you mean by it. But before you mother, smother, or lay it on too thick, just try thinking of how you would react if it was coming from the other direction (the other person I mean, haha..) Personally, I know I can get intense with people right away, but that's with friends for me. When intensity is directed towards me though, I usually find the nearest hiding place and nail the door shut, not emmerging for months, looking like the people under the stairs. Intensity can be scary early on, because it's too much too soon, the same way you feel about sex is the same way a lot of people feel about emotional intensity in relationships. Though it may be easier for _some_ to let those emotions come and go, for others _that_ is the part that lingers, not the time they spent being physically active with the other person. 

I think most people think about waiting for someone special. Everyone has standards. A lot of people will wait forever until they meet the perfect Swedish guy with long strawberry blonde hair who plays professional air guitar. You know, everybody's wants are different, but we all have them just the same.

FYI.. no one has to take anything I said TOO seriously, ftlog please...


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

cheyenna said:


> Loser, winner, etc.. it's not a game really is it? It seems a little self-victimizing to even put it that way. It's not really something you have to look down on OR be proud of. Just think of it as more like a long term goal. If sex can wait (shu'p clowns!) and you can wait and it doesn't bother you, why does that make you anything other than just you? It doesn't define YOU does it? So it can't really MAKE you anything. Oh the technicalities...
> 
> The innocence thing was a little creepy though. Babies and kids are innocent, well in reality no one is truly innocent. I think that sexuality is the opposite of being innocent, since it's "carnal knowledge" and all, and there's nothing wrong with it. It's natural and well.. it's part of being human. Why deny it? Nothing wrong with waiting for the right mate or whatever you want to call it, but it's still just a physical act (sure, go ahead and have emotions about it, it's your experience, up to you) and I think if you place too much emphasis on NOT having sex, you're going to end up with some really bad tension headaches, haha.. joking, sorry..
> 
> ...


Thanks, I have been thinking about this standards issue. I don't know. There was someone I cared for deeply and I thought he was good enough for me, but I think he is like me, having high standards, only he has achieved more than me, possibly making his options better and you see where I am going with this. It really hurts.

You can be a complete adult and have an aura of innocence. I have innocence, because even with the mistakes I have made, I have been forgiven and I have mostly erased it from my mind. I have an innocence about me, because I am not bitter. Because I am not shamed from meaningless sex. I am innocent in that I can hold my head high for not being angry, used, or exploited. Some innocence is sexual in nature, some of it is not. The sexual side of it does not need to be made in association with being a child, however, some men are not able to make that distinction. Hence, why some men date younger girls, not realizing that they have to keep doing the "in with the new out with the old" strategy. They are looking for the wrong kinds of innocence, perverting and ruining everything that comes in a one mile radius of them, therefore it is no longer any good.


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## Ubuntu (Jun 17, 2011)

Cleo said:


> Am I a loser for sticking to my values and waiting to get married again before I have sex? Even though I will probably never meet anybody ideal and worthy enough for me? Even though I dump them for not meeting my demands or scare them away by revealing my intensity as soon as we get started?


No (you aren't a loser) and maybe you would be happier in the long run if you maintained your current values but I don't think it would be a bad idea to reconsider your stance. I'm sure there are some benefits to having had sex with someone, or sexual experience in general, before you marry them.


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## FreeSpirit (Jun 1, 2011)

@Cleo, you are not a loser, you are a romantic!
There is a HUGE and much more attractive difference.


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

FreeSpirit said:


> @Cleo, you are not a loser, you are a romantic!
> There is a HUGE and much more attractive difference.


Thanks. I am starting to feel weird about taking compliments, because I don't know if people are just being rude or they really believe my motivation is to get complimented. I really was throwing myself a pitty party when I made the thread.


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## error (Feb 10, 2011)

If being a virgin automatically qualified one for loserdom than call me a loser! I think the difference is, is it intentional or not? For me it's not really intentional, I wouldn't care if I lost my virginity... but it would have to be at the right time, with the right person I guess. I don't consider myself a loser, sure socially awkward, reclusive, naive from a sheltered existance perhaps... but a loser? I've never LARPed, so I'm still good right?

Also I'm sure plenty of people have already told you that you're not a loser. It's all about self image really, maybe something about confidence. Stick to your convictions and you can't go wrong.


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## FreeSpirit (Jun 1, 2011)

Cleo said:


> Thanks. I am starting to feel weird about taking compliments, because I don't know if people are just being rude or they really believe my motivation is to get complimented. I really was throwing myself a pitty party when I made the thread.


No worries. The only parties I want to go to are online. Where would I go if no one threw any?


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## chickydoda (Feb 12, 2010)

I don't have a love life and I don't think I'm a loser. I get checked out when I leave the house even though I'm obese, I've found that dressing nicely does alot for how others think of you. Not having a love life does make me feel like less of a person though, its like, why doesn't anyone want to date me? I'm sure I'll be fighting off the boys with a stick once I lose weight ;-)

If you watch the Jeremy Kyle or Jerry Springer show you'll see that even people with the shittiest personalities and appearances have lovers and boyfriends. I guess its just about finding someone you're compatible with. Having standards is important too, if you're going to wait, you might as well find someone worth waiting for, its better to have one amazing incredible husband and a few boyfriends, then 45 shitty boyfriends over the period of your life. 

Don't give up hope!!!


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## Cleo (Jan 31, 2011)

chickydoda said:


> I don't have a love life and I don't think I'm a loser. I get checked out when I leave the house even though I'm obese, I've found that dressing nicely does alot for how others think of you. Not having a love life does make me feel like less of a person though, its like, why doesn't anyone want to date me? I'm sure I'll be fighting off the boys with a stick once I lose weight ;-)
> 
> If you watch the Jeremy Kyle or Jerry Springer show you'll see that even people with the shittiest personalities and appearances have lovers and boyfriends. I guess its just about finding someone you're compatible with. Having standards is important too, if you're going to wait, you might as well find someone worth waiting for, its better to have one amazing incredible husband and a few boyfriends, then 45 shitty boyfriends over the period of your life.
> 
> Don't give up hope!!!


Oh, thank you. 

Oh, dear, don't be too hard on yourself. Just give yourself some time and I hope you find the right inspiration. I wish you well with your goal.  

You are right that anybody could have a "love life." I'm glad you said that. It is a good reminder. And don't let my pitiful thread get you down.


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## chickydoda (Feb 12, 2010)

Cleo said:


> Oh, thank you.
> 
> Oh, dear, don't be too hard on yourself. Just give yourself some time and I hope you find the right inspiration. I wish you well with your goal.
> 
> You are right that anybody could have a "love life." I'm glad you said that. It is a good reminder. And don't let my pitiful thread get you down.


Hard on myself? About what?


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## William I am (May 20, 2011)

Cleo said:


> Am I a loser for sticking to my values and waiting to get married again before I have sex? Even though I will probably never meet anybody ideal and worthy enough for me? Even though I dump them for not meeting my demands or scare them away by revealing my intensity as soon as we get started?


1) No, but those sound like some pretty stupid values. Not having sex is a pretty arbitrary thing to choose. You could live with someone and buy a house together or even adopt a kid together without having sex, but those are all way more serious than having sex. 
2) Lower your standards. People are imperfect, including you and me.
3) No problem dumping people who don't meet your standards, unless they're unreasonable - and if you can find no one after years, they are almost definitely unreasonable. The intensity.. Eh. Some people like intensity. Most people don't like unnecessary intensity about mundane things. I'm not sure what you mean by it, but it's always worth talking to a therapist if you do things repeatedly that scare people away. "Intensity" sounds like intense rapid emotional attachment, which sounds like boundary issues, but maybe not. 

Those are my brutally efficient, scientific answers. Sorry, I'm not feeling very considerate right now. I sincerely believe that sex is a human need and that anyone denying themselves that is a stupid thing to do. It's like being a shut in because you want to find perfect friends before you go out.
These words and judgments are just about the ideas you brought forward and have no bearing on how I feel about you. I'm just answering questions about ideas in general. Cheers


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