# I am a lawyer, AMAA



## anarchitektur

I get a lot of PM's from people asking what it is like to be a lawyer, so I am creating this thread to answer general questions that you may have about: going to law school, working as a lawyer, clearing up misconceptions, etc. What I won't do is give you specific legal advice about what you can do about your neighbor who lets his dog shit all over your lawn.

So, some general information: I am licensed to practice in Texas, and I am federally licensed in the Southern and Western Districts of Texas and the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit. I am one of two managing partners in a small law firm that focuses primarily on civil litigation, but we also do a bit of criminal defense on a case-by-case basis. My personal areas of expertise are bankruptcy and consumer protection. My partner is a certified mediator (I'm not, because I think mediation is for pussies), and we're both certified _ad litems_, which means we can represent people in proceedings where someone is trying to establish a guardianship over them, as well as mental commitment hearings.

So, go ahead... ask me almost anything.


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## Coburn

What are the biggest differences between a career as a prosecutor and as a defense attorney?


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## anarchitektur

Marlowe said:


> What are the biggest differences between a career as a prosecutor and as a defense attorney?


That's a really complex question to answer, but I'll do the best I can.

Most people who become prosecutors do so simply as a way to get a lot of trial experience, and then they switch to private practice after five years or so. Very few of them start out wanting to make a career of it. Most of the ones who do start out wanting to make a career of it get burned out about the same five year mark, too, and end up going into private practice as well. The ones who remain prosecutors usually either have political ambitions, or they just have a serious chip on their shoulder and enjoy sending people to jail... it's never a pleasure to deal with either type, honestly.

The first obvious difference between the two is their role in the adversarial process. The job of a prosecutor is to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that every element of a particular crime has been committed by the defendant. A defense attorney does everything within the bounds of the law and rules of ethics to make the prosecutor's job as difficult as possible... they do this by suppressing as much evidence as possible prior to trial, so that by the time the case is ready for trial, the prosecutor doesn't have enough to prove one or more elements of the crime. For instance, if someone gets arrested because a police officer found a bag of weed in their car, you'd try to suppress the admission of any reference to the marijuana as evidence because the driver didn't consent and the officer lacked probable cause to perform the search, thus anything gained as a result of that is inadmissible. If you're successful, it's hard to charge someone with possession of marijuana when all evidence of the marijuana's existence has been excluded.

Another key difference is how you get paid. Prosecutors get a steady paycheck, and they only care about winning cases insofar as it improves their record and opens up opportunities for advancement. Defense attorneys have to bill hourly-- they live and die by how many clients they can get.


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## Gossip Goat

I don't know if this is the kind of question I should ask but what do you think on the whole "There are more law students than lawyers in the world" thing and how do you think the future job prospects in this career will be? I've also heard people say "You could be a lawyer and never practice a day in your life." 

Thoughts on that too?


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## cosmiccapricorn

Are you Jewish or regular?


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## anarchitektur

Paris Geller said:


> I don't know if this is the kind of question I should ask but what do you think on the whole "There are more law students than lawyers in the world" thing and how do you think the future job prospects in this career will be? I've also heard people say "You could be a lawyer and never practice a day in your life."
> 
> Thoughts on that too?


The American Bar Association releases a lot of bleak statistics every year.

I can't speak for the world, but law schools across the US churn out approximately 46,000 graduates every year. The legal market is oversaturated, and has been for quite some time. That doesn't mean it is impossible to find work, just that there's a lot of competition for desirable positions. Personally, I always wanted to be my own boss, so I never was interested in working for a large firm-- which is where most of the competition is. Due in large part to the economic recession, the competition for these positions is even more fierce because many large firms are feeling the crunch because their clients don't want to spend the big bucks that law firms grew accustomed to during the 80's and 90's... which means there's not as much money to hire new associates.

My personal opinion is that large law firms are a dying breed. In the past, they existed as a result of necessity... but with the drastic advancement of technology, smaller boutique firms are able to compete with larger ones because they can utilize that technology to do more with less... which means they have lower overhead costs, which frees up their operating budget and means the savings get passed on to the clients. Without their high billables, large law firms have had to implement hiring freezes, layoffs, or even close their doors completely.

All of that creates a "perfect storm" of a really crappy job market for new lawyers-- particularly the ones who just want to work for someone else and collect a paycheck rather than striking out on their own and only eating what they kill.

It is not at all uncommon for people with a law degree to work in other fields-- in Texas, the easiest example of this is in the oil and gas industry-- these companies love to hire JDs for landman positions, because their knowledge of deeds, recording statutes, estates, mineral rights, etc. are invaluable.


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## anarchitektur

cosmiccapricorn said:


> Are you Jewish or regular?


My partner is Jewish, I'm a WASP. :tongue:


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## Gossip Goat

Differences between solo practice and working in a firm? Pros & Cons?


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## anarchitektur

Paris Geller said:


> Differences between solo practice and working in a firm? Pros & Cons?


The biggest difference in terms of how the two operate comes down to their resources. Law firms have more money and manpower, which means they are better equipped to handle long, drawn-out litigation. Big cases require a big bankroll to fund them... filings, experts, depositions, etc. all cost money, and unless your client has deep pockets and will cover the costs as they arise, the firm needs to be able to front those long enough to see the case through to a recovery and still remain afloat.

The pros and cons of both are subjective, but here's my take on each:

*Solo*
Pros: You are your own boss, you can choose what cases you want to take, and you reap all the rewards.

Cons: You have to do all the work (unless you hire a paralegal or legal secretary). You have to wear a lot of different hats... not only are you a lawyer, but you have to worry about running a profitable business. You've got to market yourself, bring in clients, and keep up with all the overhead of keeping your office supplied and functional.

*Small/Medium Firm*
Pros: More resources than being a solo, but there's less of a rigid hierarchy than in big firms. The atmosphere tends to be more collaborative than competitive, since there's only so high you can rise in the ranks.

Cons: Kind of a mix between the cons of the solo practice and the big firm.

*Big Firm*
Pros: You get a steady paycheck, you have guidance available from senior attorneys, you can get some nice amenities without being the one to pay for them, and (in a big enough firm) you can specialize. All you have to worry about is being a lawyer and making your billables.

Cons: If a case gets dumped on you, it's yours and it's tough titties if you don't like it. Advancement is at someone else's discretion, and you have to play politics to get ahead. Many firms have an "up or out" policy, which means you need to go from being an associate to being a partner within so many years, or your ass is out on the street. Big firms tend to have a high concentration of super-competitive Type A assholes.


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## DualGnosis

Does the school you graduated from greatly affect the perception of which firms would hire you upon graduating? Or does it depend more on grades?


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## Falling Leaves

Would you recommend studying law purely, or getting a separate degree first and converting? 

Also, how many goats did you have to slaughter in the ritual to transfer your soul over to Satan?


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## Dashing

What case has made the most impact on you personally? Are there any that spring to mind? 

Also; weirdest case up until now? You don't have to be very specific. Just wondering! Thanks!


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## anarchitektur

DualGnosis said:


> Does the school you graduated from greatly affect the perception of which firms would hire you upon graduating? Or does it depend more on grades?


Yes, there's a lot of snobbery about schools and grades. Mostly this kind of perception only exists because it is perpetuated by the people it benefits. Some firms will only hire candidates who went to a "First Tier" school, some are even more stringent and will only hire someone whose school is within the top 14 nationally ranked schools, and some are even more picky and will only hire Harvard grads. Some still will only hire people who were top of their class, top 5%, etc. Personally, I'm of the opinion that you should stand on your own reputation and the quality of your work... if you need to puff yourself up with what school you went to, what your rank was, etc., there's probably nothing remarkable about you personally.


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## anarchitektur

Falling Leaves said:


> Would you recommend studying law purely, or getting a separate degree first and converting?
> 
> Also, how many goats did you have to slaughter in the ritual to transfer your soul over to Satan?


In the US, you need to have an undergrad degree to be admitted to law school. If you're asking if that undergrad degree should be in pre-law or something similar, it really makes no difference. The only time your undergrad degree really matters is if you decide to do patent law, as there are some STEM requirements to be eligible to take the patent bar exam to practice before the USPTO.

Two goats and a chicken.


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## anarchitektur

Dashing said:


> What case has made the most impact on you personally? Are there any that spring to mind?
> 
> Also; weirdest case up until now? You don't have to be very specific. Just wondering! Thanks!


Right now, we are involved in several lawsuits against corrupt officials... it's very big news around here. We're going after the sheriff's department, the district attorney, a mayor, a school district, and the list goes on and on. It's all very interesting, and we get enough death threats that we each carry a gun.

Weirdest case I ever had was a mental commitment hearing for a bipolar schizophrenic teenager who told me he wasn't _attacking _his father with a shard of broken glass, he was trying to protect him from the demons that were trying to possess him.


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## PowerShell

Do you think it's bogus you need a law degree to be able to take the bar exam? I know some states allow you to sit the exam and become a lawyer by doing an apprenticeship instead of getting a law degree. Do you think a law degree should be required if someone could self-study and pass the bar exam without the law degree?


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## anarchitektur

PowerShell said:


> Do you think it's bogus you need a law degree to be able to take the bar exam? I know some states allow you to sit the exam and become a lawyer by doing an apprenticeship instead of getting a law degree. Do you think a law degree should be required if someone could self-study and pass the bar exam without the law degree?


I think ultimately requiring a law degree prevents more harm than it causes, so I don't really put much thought into the plight of those who want to practice law but can't go to law school for whatever reason. I'm sure plenty of people could self-study and be just as competent as anyone else, but, I think you have to design the system based on realistic probabilities and try to minimize the most likely harm. In this case, the most likely harm is that someone who has not undergone 3 years of lectures, studying, writing, testing, etc. will screw up something that a person who has done all those things would not.

School is as much a screening process as it is an educational one... you have to submit to a pretty thorough background check and character evaluation to be admitted to the bar. So, there's that, too. They try to limit people with really shady pasts from being put into sensitive positions where someone's life could potentially be at stake.


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## Golden Rose

Like you said, there are many areas of expertise in law. What drew you to your specific field(s)?


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## xisnotx

Should you go to law school if you're not sure you want to be a lawyer?

How easy or common is it to transfer from one law school to another? Say you get into a top 25 but wanted a top 14, is transferring into a top 14 improbable?

The rumor is, the LSAT is getting harder and harder as the years go by as more and more people are able to hack it with some practice. True or false?

How many hours of study before the LSAT is prudent?

How to ace the logic games portion of the test?

What is the reputation of Howard University's law program in the field? 

How would you design a prosecution of the three years of law school before bar eligibility requirement, if you were pushed? 

What exactly gives a judge the right to rule for/against anything? Isn't he just some guy? "By the powers invested in him by the State of wherever"...what if my own beliefs state that no individual, acting for a majority or not, is any more valid in his assessment of right and wrong than anyone else? What gives a judge authority? Or should I just keep my mouth shut?

Do lawyers hate cops? Because I hate cops...so that would be a nice bonus.


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## DualGnosis

One more question. In your opinion, would experience in the military a.k.a. a former JAG officer, be beneficial for being hired in private law firms? I've heard government positions really view military experience positively but not sure about the non-public sector.


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## noz

^imo, this guy seems much more like the cast/characters from Suits. Better not piss him off.


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## anarchitektur

iHeartCats said:


> do u feel good when u stand in the courtroom and present ur arguments like VIP and slam ur briefcase like a boss:


First of all, that suit is hideous... what was the costume designer thinking?

Anyway, I'm generally a soft-spoken person and I don't like to raise my voice. I don't slam my fist, make impassioned speeches, or any of that other theatrical crap you see on TV. Most of your arguing as an attorney is done through written motions... but that makes for boring television. Occasionally I make subtle jokes at the other side's expense, but that's only if I'm in a catty mood over something they've done. For instance, I'm defending a criminal case and the prosecutor is a real douche. He said to me, "I think I have a strong case." I replied, "If everything I thought was true, you'd have three copies of chromosome 21." I don't think he got it.


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## poodiepie

One time i told my mom i wanna be a lawyer. She said dont. I asked why. She said being a lawyer is to keep telling lies to earn money, which i think is an extreme saying. Idk why, i just think what she said doesnt make too much sense and doesnt really match my perception of an lawyer - smart, intellectual etc. 
the second thing she told me about lawyer is that they have to deal with dirty stuffs of human.
I asked "how so?" She said "dont ask me. Ask a lawyer."
So i brought my question here


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## anarchitektur

poodiepie said:


> One time i told my mom i wanna be a lawyer. She said dont. I asked why. She said being a lawyer is to keep telling lies to earn money, which i think is an extreme saying. Idk why, i just think what she said doesnt make too much sense and doesnt really match my perception of an lawyer - smart, intellectual etc.
> the second thing she told me about lawyer is that they have to deal with dirty stuffs of human.
> I asked "how so?" She said "dont ask me. Ask a lawyer."
> So i brought my question here


I don't see an actual question...


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## poodiepie

anarchitektur said:


> I don't see an actual question...


Oh i'm sorry XDD i was too excited to type the saying between me and my mom.

Actually, i'd like to have some opinions of my mothers' saying from a lawyer's perspective. I know this is not a legitimate question. But i'd really like to know what are the potential "dirty" things that a lawyer will see? The thing comes to my head is sth like helping murders to defense.


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## thereshegoes

Hey! thanks for doing this AMAA haha.
Sorry if this has been previously answered but I'm too lazy to go through all 7 pages.
Do you have any advice for me as I want to go to law school and will be entering undergrad this fall as a freshman in arts?
Thanks a bunch


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## anarchitektur

poodiepie said:


> Oh i'm sorry XDD i was too excited to type the saying between me and my mom.
> 
> Actually, i'd like to have some opinions of my mothers' saying from a lawyer's perspective. I know this is not a legitimate question. But i'd really like to know what are the potential "dirty" things that a lawyer will see? The thing comes to my head is sth like helping murders to defense.


It's no secret that there are crooked lawyers. But there are also crooked doctors, teachers, priests, salesmen, etc. Name a profession, there's someone in it who is dishonest. The honest ones are the majority, though, and we remain that way by not asking questions that we don't need to know the answers to. When I am defending someone on a criminal charge, I never ask, "Did you do it?" because I don't want to know. What I want to know is whether or not the prosecution has enough evidence to prove that my client did it. Those are two very different things.


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## anarchitektur

thereshegoes said:


> Hey! thanks for doing this AMAA haha.
> Sorry if this has been previously answered but I'm too lazy to go through all 7 pages.
> Do you have any advice for me as I want to go to law school and will be entering undergrad this fall as a freshman in arts?
> Thanks a bunch


You're very welcome!

My advice is this: if you're too lazy to read 7 pages of a forum thread, strongly reconsider your desire to go to law school. :happy:


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## poodiepie

anarchitektur said:


> and we remain that way by not asking questions that we don't need to know the answers to. When I am defending someone on a criminal charge, I never ask, "Did you do it?" because I don't want to know. What I want to know is whether or not the prosecution has enough evidence to prove that my client did it.


Oh :/ my mother will consider that "dishonest" already 'cause she can't persuade herself to help criminals to defense. So the first thing she concern is whether the accused is really innocent, if yes, there's no problem to help. If no but chose to help is "crooked" in her concept :/
But I think she make sort of sense too cuz no one wants to defend for people like oj simpsons :/
Sorry, I'm kinda turning this into a conversation, u can ignore me if you're too busy :XD


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## anarchitektur

poodiepie said:


> Oh :/ my mother will consider that "dishonest" already 'cause she can't persuade herself to help criminals to defense. So the first thing she concern is whether the accused is really innocent, if yes, there's no problem to help. If no but chose to help is "crooked" in her concept :/
> But I think she make sort of sense too cuz no one wants to defend for people like on simpsons :/
> Sorry, I'm kinda turning this into a conversation, u can ignore me if you're too busy :XD


Well, hopefully your mother never finds herself in a situation where she is innocent and everyone else believes she is guilty. If everyone knew who was guilty or innocent before the trial, there'd be no point to any of it. The whole system (in America, anyway) is designed as a barrier to prevent the state from exercising its power to take life or liberty without due process.


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## poodiepie

anarchitektur said:


> Well, hopefully your mother never finds herself in a situation where she is innocent and everyone else believes she is guilty. If everyone knew who was guilty or innocent before the trial, there'd be no point to any of it. The whole system (in America, anyway) is designed as a barrier to prevent the state from exercising its power to take life or liberty without due process.


Well, she will avoid any chances of helping the bad people. consider the number of cases, it's not surprising that experienced lawyers have unwittingly helped the bads. Therefore, not knowing the "truth" before helping is unacceptable to her. :/


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## anarchitektur

poodiepie said:


> Well, she will avoid any chances of helping the bad people. consider the number of cases, it's not surprising that experienced lawyers have unwittingly helped the bads. Therefore, not knowing the "truth" before helping is unacceptable to her. :/


I guess it depends on where you draw the line on who is a "bad person." Personally, I have not handled any murder cases and I don't have any desire to do so. The only violent criminal case I've had was an aggravated assault + possession of prohibited weapon (brass knuckles) + resisting arrest. Basically it was a stupid teenager who got into a fist fight with another stupid teenager and then ran from the cops. Pretty much everything else has been DWI's, public intoxication, drug possessions, disorderly conduct, etc.


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## iHeartCats

Your occupation sounds pretty interesting to me.


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## anarchitektur

iHeartCats said:


> Your occupation sounds pretty interesting to me.


It definitely can be, but it can also be incredibly frustrating. It has its trade-offs, just like anything else.


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## zobot

Just the sheer amount of detailed knowledge you possess, at your age, is enough to make me wish I had followed my pre-law ambitions. 

I wish I could spout of Latin terms and reference specific court cases, on-call. I'm jealous, I really am.


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## Darkstar

zobot said:


> Just the sheer amount of detailed knowledge you possess, at your age, is enough to make me wish I had followed my pre-law ambitions.
> 
> I wish I could spout of Latin terms and reference specific court cases, on-call. I'm jealous, I really am.


You could learn all of that yourself without getting a legal degree and crushing debt. 

Google Scholar.


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## Gentleman

Are you a good liar? Are you rich? If you could press a button and get ten trillion dollars, but ten trillion people would suffer in horrible agony for ten trillion years as well, and no one would know about it other than yourself, would you press the button?


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## gbboone

Have many of your lawyer peers gone into politics?


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## Autumn_Fairy

poodiepie said:


> One time i told my mom i wanna be a lawyer. She said dont. I asked why. She said being a lawyer is to keep telling lies to earn money, which i think is an extreme saying. Idk why, i just think what she said doesnt make too much sense and doesnt really match my perception of an lawyer - smart, intellectual etc.
> the second thing she told me about lawyer is that they have to deal with dirty stuffs of human.
> I asked "how so?" She said "dont ask me. Ask a lawyer."
> So i brought my question here





poodiepie said:


> Oh i'm sorry XDD i was too excited to type the saying between me and my mom.
> 
> Actually, i'd like to have some opinions of my mothers' saying from a lawyer's perspective. I know this is not a legitimate question. But i'd really like to know what are the potential "dirty" things that a lawyer will see? The thing comes to my head is sth like helping murders to defense.


I'm not answering your question, but Im adding another vote for this concern.

My husband just finished law school. He is currently studying for the Bar exam. When I met him, he was a computer guy. Exactly what I always a wanted - a computer geek. But He wanted to become a lawyer and went back to school. 

I don't want him to forget morals in the interest of winning a case. With law its not just black and white right or wrong, but I worry that he will get in the habit of taking advantage of grey areas for personal gain.


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## Reanna

Thank you so much making for this thread! I apologize in advance for my questions, I'm young and stupid. 

Do you think going to law school will help me make a career in lobbying? More knowledge, better jobs, etc. Is it worth the money if your goal is a career in lobbying?

I plan on joining the army after college before going to law school and either stopping after one eight years or making a career out of it. Do you think eight years is too big of a gap between education and I'll never make it to law school? I read that the longer you take off, the less the chance that you'll ever go to law school.

Is it true that law schools don't like polisci or criminal justice majors? I'm very interested in both and am considering double majoring, but if it lowers my chance on being admitted to law school do you think I should change my major? 

Advice in taking out loans?


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## VinnieBob

my question is as follows
in'' plato's republic'' he states that in order for a law to be just the law must favor the people and governing body equally if said law favor one side more then the other then it becomes unjust 

based on that statement in your opinion are there more just laws then unjust or visa versa?


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## anarchitektur

Stampede said:


> Are you a good liar? Are you rich? If you could press a button and get ten trillion dollars, but ten trillion people would suffer in horrible agony for ten trillion years as well, and no one would know about it other than yourself, would you press the button?


No (but maybe that's a lie?), No, There aren't that many people in the world.


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## anarchitektur

gbboone said:


> Have many of your lawyer peers gone into politics?


None that I'm aware of. I try to associate with a higher caliber class of people who wouldn't whore themselves out to the legislative or executive branches.


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## anarchitektur

Autumn_Fairy said:


> My husband just finished law school. He is currently studying for the Bar exam. When I met him, he was a computer guy. Exactly what I always a wanted - a computer geek. But He wanted to become a lawyer and went back to school.
> 
> I don't want him to forget morals in the interest of winning a case. With law its not just black and white right or wrong, but I worry that he will get in the habit of taking advantage of grey areas for personal gain.


I started off as a computer geek and I'm still a computer geek. The only thing that's changed is now I'm a computer geek with a law degree.

If you're a shitty person with no morals, you'll be a shitty attorney with no morals. There is nothing about being a lawyer that is inherently corrupting.


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## anarchitektur

Reanna said:


> Thank you so much making for this thread! I apologize in advance for my questions, I'm young and stupid.


No need to apologize, that's what this thread is for!  

*Do you think going to law school will help me make a career in lobbying? More knowledge, better jobs, etc. Is it worth the money if your goal is a career in lobbying?*

Yes, absolutely. I don't have any statistics, but I'm sure most lobbyists have law degrees.

*I plan on joining the army after college before going to law school and either stopping after one eight years or making a career out of it. Do you think eight years is too big of a gap between education and I'll never make it to law school? I read that the longer you take off, the less the chance that you'll ever go to law school.*

I was out of college for five years before I went to law school, so three extra years isn't a big deal. The real question is how you spend that time... I had three different full-time jobs in that time span and got lots of experience in the "real world," which I think was invaluable. Personally, I think it should be a _requirement _for law school that you work for a few years prior, because the kids who went straight from college to law school were pretty clueless about how the world works and I had a constant advantage over them just from that alone. I also had several classmates who were 40+ who had been out of school for decades... they were definitely in the minority, but they graduated and got jobs just like everyone else. The only problem with going to law school that late in your life is that you won't see the same return on investment.

Also, if you wanted to become a JAG officer, a military background prior to law school would help you a lot!

*Is it true that law schools don't like polisci or criminal justice majors? I'm very interested in both and am considering double majoring, but if it lowers my chance on being admitted to law school do you think I should change my major? *

I'm not aware of any stigma toward any undergrad degree, unless you do Basket Weaving or something equally ridiculous. I went to law school with people who had the degrees you mentioned, so I think either one would be fine.

*Advice in taking out loans?*

Take out as few as possible. Study hard in undergrad and get good grades so you can get at least a partial scholarship.


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## Gentleman

anarchitektur said:


> No (but maybe that's a lie?), No, There aren't that many people in the world.


I know, I was referring to the people living on Uranus.


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## anarchitektur

vinniebob said:


> my question is as follows
> in'' plato's republic'' he states that in order for a law to be just the law must favor the people and governing body equally if said law favor one side more then the other then it becomes unjust
> 
> based on that statement in your opinion are there more just laws then unjust or visa versa?




I don't think this country's legislators have read Plato... there's definitely more unjust (or at least _stupid_) laws.


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## anarchitektur

Stampede said:


> I know, I was referring to the people living on Uranus.


Yes, the Hemorrhoids of Uranus are a proud people.


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## Autumn_Fairy

anarchitektur said:


> I started off as a computer geek and I'm still a computer geek. The only thing that's changed is now I'm a computer geek with a law degree.
> 
> If you're a shitty person with no morals, you'll be a shitty attorney with no morals. There is nothing about being a lawyer that is inherently corrupting.


This is comforting to know. Thank you 

In the past three years, I've sort of come to terms with my husband's new career path, but I still get worried sometimes. I imagine that being exposed to corrupt people or events regularly will desensitize one to these things.


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## anarchitektur

Autumn_Fairy said:


> This is comforting to know. Thank you
> 
> In the past three years, I've sort of come to terms with my husband's new career path, but I still get worried sometimes. I imagine that being exposed to corrupt people or events regularly will desensitize one to these things.


Be more worried about depression than corruption. Being a lawyer is a difficult and often thankless job full of stress and frustration because we wade through the cesspool of society's shit every day. The best thing you can do for him is continue to be a source of love and support... lacking those things, it can be very easy to get burned out. Don't let him forget who he is at home, and that'll help him remember who he is at work.

Also, I know he's probably stressing out because the bar is at the end of this month, but the waiting around til November for the results is going to be even harder. Try to help him stay positive... I would have gone batshit crazy during that time without the support of my girlfriend.

Also, kudos to you for not strangling him to death while he was a law student. :tongue:


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## Autumn_Fairy

anarchitektur said:


> Be more worried about depression than corruption. Being a lawyer is a difficult and often thankless job full of stress and frustration because we wade through the cesspool of society's shit every day. The best thing you can do for him is continue to be a source of love and support... lacking those things, it can be very easy to get burned out. Don't let him forget who he is at home, and that'll help him remember who he is at work.
> 
> Also, I know he's probably stressing out because the bar is at the end of this month, but the waiting around til November for the results is going to be even harder. Try to help him stay positive... I would have gone batshit crazy during that time without the support of my girlfriend.
> 
> Also, kudos to you for not strangling him to death while he was a law student. :tongue:


Yeah, not strangling to _death_ - I'll take credit for that much 

Just waiting to find out semester grades was a stress. He's usually very pessimistic and some grades always came in really late. The bigger stress now is that we are planning a move and he realized getting work lined up before he knows the bar results will be difficult. I have to be in Colorado for grad school and am moving to an apartment by myself mid august. We have a house to sell and have to find a new one since we have to many pets for renting. I won't be around him much while the wait for test results comes in 
But I think he will survive. Less risk of strangling when I'm not around, lol.


----------



## anarchitektur

Autumn_Fairy said:


> Yeah, not strangling to _death_ - I'll take credit for that much
> 
> Just waiting to find out semester grades was a stress. He's usually very pessimistic and some grades always came in really late. The bigger stress now is that we are planning a move and he realized getting work lined up before he knows the bar results will be difficult. I have to be in Colorado for grad school and am moving to an apartment by myself mid august. We have a house to sell and have to find a new one since we have to many pets for renting. I won't be around him much while the wait for test results comes in
> But I think he will survive. Less risk of strangling when I'm not around, lol.


Oh, _some _amount of strangling goes without saying when you're the significant other of a law student... but just like alcohol, you have to know when to say when. 

And, yes, getting work without bar results is very hard. I wasn't able to do it. I had stuff lined up prior to graduation, but they fell through due to the economy tanking. So... best laid plans of mice and men, and all that.


----------



## baby blue me

Wow this is such a cool thread, thanks. I just can't help but think about this: I saw a 60-year old man in the bank, inquiring something about his account over the counter. So he asked the teller/lady and the lady was being polite all through out while answering him. He sounded so frustrated and he was easily frustrated while she checked his ID. The lady went like "I appreciate you showed me as much ID as you can, I know it's not so easy for some people..."And he was like, "I don't like being appreciated. Don't tell me that you appreciate me!". 

So they finished the convo and the lady was still polite even when the guy was reiterating "I am a lawyer" and he said that around 4-5 times. In the end, he thanked the girl, said she was very nice and he went like "Do you want to have coffee with me?". I didn't hear what she said but it seemed like a no. LOL.

That being said, what are your thoughts about the aforementioned "lawyer"? I know this may be a personality issue but I just wonder if you've seen a lot of lawyers act this way. Also I find it hard to fathom how he went from "I don't like to be appreciated" to "Do you want to have coffee with me". Is he lonely and just longing to be valued? I really can't say.


----------



## Darkstar

baby blue me said:


> Wow this is such a cool thread, thanks. I just can't help but think about this: I saw a 60-year old man in the bank, inquiring something about his account over the counter. So he asked the teller/lady and the lady was being polite all through out while answering him. He sounded so frustrated and he was easily frustrated while she checked his ID. The lady went like "I appreciate you showed me as much ID as you can, I know it's not so easy for some people..."And he was like, "I don't like being appreciated. Don't tell me that you appreciate me!".
> 
> So they finished the convo and the lady was still polite even when the guy was reiterating "I am a lawyer" and he said that around 4-5 times. In the end, he thanked the girl, said she was very nice and he went like "Do you want to have coffee with me?". I didn't hear what she said but it seemed like a no. LOL.
> 
> That being said, what are your thoughts about the aforementioned "lawyer"? I know this may be a personality issue but I just wonder if you've seen a lot of lawyers act this way. Also I find it hard to fathom how he went from "I don't like to be appreciated" to "Do you want to have coffee with me". Is he lonely and just longing to be valued? I really can't say.


We were told repeatedly in law school that telling people you were a lawyer five times fast meant you would get what you wanted. Kind of like a wishing fountain a la Bloody Mary.


----------



## baby blue me

Darkstar said:


> We were told repeatedly in law school that telling people you were a lawyer five times fast meant you would get what you wanted. Kind of like a wishing fountain a la Bloody Mary.


Seriously? Hm. Good tactics. Does it work for you? Have you tried it before? I wonder what lawyers feel while saying those. Is it proudness and arrogance? Just so you know, I don't find those words negative.


----------



## Darkstar

baby blue me said:


> Seriously? Hm. Good tactics. Does it work for you? Have you tried it before? I wonder what lawyers feel while saying those. Is it proudness and arrogance? Just so you know, I don't find those words negative.


Of course it works, don't be silly. I'm a lawyer. Of course I've tried it before. I'm a lawyer. I feel greatly empowered like I'm driving a car while everyone is trying to figure out what the wheel is. I'm a lawyer. I can't be arrogant, that means I'm making myself to be more than I am. I'm a lawyer. Let's get coffee and then married. I'm a lawyer.


----------



## baby blue me

Darkstar said:


> Of course it works, don't be silly. I'm a lawyer. Of course I've tried it before. I'm a lawyer. I feel greatly empowered like I'm driving a car while everyone is trying to figure out what the wheel is. I'm a lawyer. I can't be arrogant, that means I'm making myself to be more than I am. I'm a lawyer. Let's get coffee and then married. I'm a lawyer.


Ahahahahahaha. You're a lawyer. I didn't think lawyers were funny until you, a lawyer, got me giggling. Hahahaha. You're a lawyer, a funny one that is. Hahaha. 

No we're not getting married. Ahahaha.


----------



## Darkstar

baby blue me said:


> Ahahahahahaha. You're a lawyer. I didn't think lawyers were funny until you, a lawyer, got me giggling. Hahahaha. You're a lawyer, a funny one that is. Hahaha.
> 
> No we're not getting married. Ahahaha.


Damn, can't blame a guy for trying.


----------



## Alles_Paletti

What does a lawyer do all day, at "concrete activities" level? Is it mostly reading? 

Does your career allow for a life? Or is it only work work work?

Do you only wear suits or is the dress code becoming more flexible?

Any recommended reading for non-lawyers? Are there some things non-lawyers are not aware of that they could benefit from?

Can you name three assumptions the general public has that you now know are untrue because of being a lawyer? 

Is there any movie/series that comes close to giving an accurate portrayal of the profession?

Can you emotionally distance from your work? (like that glass shard kid, wow... that would haunt my dreams)


----------



## Darkstar

*What does a lawyer do all day, at "concrete activities" level? Is it mostly reading? *
I am reading this post ... damnit.
*
Does your career allow for a life? Or is it only work work work?*
Boss ... is that you? No sir, I'm not not working. This website ... it's for research purposes. 
*
Do you only wear suits or is the dress code becoming more flexible?*
I love the feel of spandex. I am Lawyer Man.
*
Any recommended reading for non-lawyers? Are there some things non-lawyers are not aware of that they could benefit from?*
No - everything on the law has been overcomplicated so that laypersons cannot understand it. It's why you pay us to interpret it for you. Good thing we were the ones who drafted these laws to be overly complex and nonsensical in the first place. Score.
*
Can you name three assumptions the general public has that you now know are untrue because of being a lawyer? *
We are rich (I can barely afford cocaine each day, it's tough). 
We don't cry (I cry to the movie Her frequently)
We are dramatic (WE ARE NOT ... asshole)

*Is there any movie/series that comes close to giving an accurate portrayal of the profession?*
Instead of watching dramatized versions, why not just sit in on any courtroom and observe the day? Hearings are open to the public so you can observe just how stupid the whole thing is.

*Can you emotionally distance from your work? (like that glass shard kid, wow... that would haunt my dreams)
*I use the money I get to build a wall between me and the poorer clientsand then also to hire a homeless man to feel on my behalf.


----------



## Alles_Paletti

@Darkstar

This is probably an innocent attempt at being funny. But to me it reads like a sarcastic response that makes me feel treated like an idiot. Not appreciated.

I was actually interested in legitimate answers from the OP.


----------



## Darkstar

Alles_Paletti said:


> @_Darkstar_
> 
> This is probably an innocent attempt at being funny. But to me it reads like a sarcastic response that makes me feel treated like an idiot. Not appreciated.
> 
> I was actually interested in legitimate answers from the OP.


You make me laugh. I like it. I'm sure OP will have decent answers for you. I would heed the advice given on attending a public hearing though rather than watching a movie or TV to get the feel of law.


----------



## anarchitektur

Alles_Paletti said:


> What does a lawyer do all day, at "concrete activities" level? Is it mostly reading?


My "to do" list varies day to day, which is probably the biggest selling point for me of this career, because too much routine gets me feeling very depressed. Today I had two hearings, which took all morning. Then I had lunch. Now I'm about to type up a Rule 11 agreement pertaining to one of those hearings. After that, I have to return all the calls and emails that have been piling up. Other days, I'm researching, drafting motions, etc. Other days, it feels like I don't have a thing to do... in which case, I take care of the backlog of personal errands...

*Does your career allow for a life? Or is it only work work work?*

I touched on this in an earlier post, but I do get to have time to myself. I could be busy all the time, but I choose not to be.

*Do you only wear suits or is the dress code becoming more flexible?*

On average, I'd say I wear a suit four days out of the week... sometimes every day, sometimes only a couple times. It just depends on what I have on my schedule for the day.

*Any recommended reading for non-lawyers? Are there some things non-lawyers are not aware of that they could benefit from?*

Even the most incompetent lawyer is better than no lawyer. Never plead guilty to anything without representation-- even in the worst-case scenario, they can at least get you a better deal than what you could get _pro se_.

*Can you name three assumptions the general public has that you now know are untrue because of being a lawyer?*

1. That cops know the law (they don't), 2. That judges know the law (they don't), 3. Fighting over trivial things "out of principle" does not make you William fucking Wallace.

*Is there any movie/series that comes close to giving an accurate portrayal of the profession?*

_My Cousin Vinny_

*Can you emotionally distance from your work? (like that glass shard kid, wow... that would haunt my dreams)*

I'm an INTP, so I'm emotionally distant from pretty much everything, my work included.


----------



## anarchitektur

baby blue me said:


> Wow this is such a cool thread, thanks. I just can't help but think about this: I saw a 60-year old man in the bank, inquiring something about his account over the counter. So he asked the teller/lady and the lady was being polite all through out while answering him. He sounded so frustrated and he was easily frustrated while she checked his ID. The lady went like "I appreciate you showed me as much ID as you can, I know it's not so easy for some people..."And he was like, "I don't like being appreciated. Don't tell me that you appreciate me!".
> 
> So they finished the convo and the lady was still polite even when the guy was reiterating "I am a lawyer" and he said that around 4-5 times. In the end, he thanked the girl, said she was very nice and he went like "Do you want to have coffee with me?". I didn't hear what she said but it seemed like a no. LOL.
> 
> That being said, what are your thoughts about the aforementioned "lawyer"? I know this may be a personality issue but I just wonder if you've seen a lot of lawyers act this way. Also I find it hard to fathom how he went from "I don't like to be appreciated" to "Do you want to have coffee with me". Is he lonely and just longing to be valued? I really can't say.


I worked with a lawyer for a while who once said to me, "As a lawyer, everyone but your clients should hate you." I don't subscribe to that mentality. I'm not afraid to have people hate me, and I do not shy away from conflict... but there is something to be said for humility.

I dislike lawyers that constantly point out that they are lawyers, as if that should impress people or grant them special treatment. The only time I bring it up is when I'm making a phone call and I need to let people know who I am (e.g. "Hi, my name is [ ], and I'm the attorney for so-and-so...") or when someone asks me what I do for for a living. This has led to some particularly amusing conversations, when people argue with me about "the law" and aren't aware that I am a lawyer.


----------



## theflame

anarchitektur said:


> Right now, we are involved in several lawsuits against corrupt officials... it's very big news around here. We're going after the sheriff's department, the district attorney, a mayor, a school district, and the list goes on and on. It's all very interesting, and we get enough death threats that we each carry a gun.
> 
> Weirdest case I ever had was a mental commitment hearing for a bipolar schizophrenic teenager who told me he wasn't _attacking _his father with a shard of broken glass, he was trying to protect him from the demons that were trying to possess him.


This is definitely one of the reasons why I've never wanted to be a lawyer, lol, the unwarranted threats for doing my job. I used to work at one of the best law schools for eight years as a Media Technician and would record law student speeches. It was fascinating watching them. I've often been told I've got pretty good deducting skills etc. and watching them made me want to become one, but I don't know if I could handle the more serious threats like that.

Have you ever ran into a sleazy lawyer who would take advantage of people's situations to make more money? (I know of two right now that I've personally heard of, but I don't know how to go about reporting them to officials. I heard the lawyers I know people personally who they're dealing with would make people do illegal things and if they got caught they would get fined, basically giving his clients bad advice just so he could charge them to use his services every time.) Would you report him if you knew of someone behaving immorally and not doing their duties being a lawyer to his clients -- innocent or not, but in this case the person I know who has a lawyer is innocent and he isn't defending his client properly.) I'm not saying all lawyers are like that obviously since I know there are good and bad lawyers and good and bad workers in every profession.


----------



## anarchitektur

thelostxin said:


> Have you ever ran into a sleazy lawyer who would take advantage of people's situations to make more money? (I know of two right now that I've personally heard of, but I don't know how to go about reporting them to officials. I heard the lawyers I know people personally who they're dealing with would make people do illegal things and if they got caught they would get fined, basically giving his clients bad advice just so he could charge them to use his services every time.) Would you report him if you knew of someone behaving immorally and not doing their duties being a lawyer to his clients -- innocent or not, but in this case the person I know who has a lawyer is innocent and he isn't defending his client properly.) I'm not saying all lawyers are like that obviously since I know there are good and bad lawyers and good and bad workers in every profession.


I know a lawyer whom I consider to be a sleazy person because he constantly cheats on his wife and always talks about sleeping around, which I find morally repugnant. I also don't consider him to be a particularly talented attorney. However, I don't have any personal knowledge of him taking advantage of clients or otherwise engaging in illegal activity (though, allegations have been made), so there is nothing to report. If I did have personal knowledge of unethical conduct, I'm supposed to report him to the state bar.

Likewise, if the person you know has a legitimate complaint about a lawyer, the best thing s/he can do is file a grievance with your state bar. Usually their websites have a link about how to do this. Some leeway should be given to the lawyer as to what is the "proper" way to represent the client. Sometimes clients just have unrealistic expectations, and second-guessing the lawyer in those cases really isn't justified. If the client is legitimately unhappy, s/he can always fire the attorney and retain other counsel. If the lawyer is objectively just doing a bad job, then the grievance process is justified.


----------



## Donkey D Kong

I broke a mirror and got seven years of bad luck. Do you think you could get me down to three years?


----------



## Gossip Goat

Is being in a lawyer in a courtroom as heated as some people think? (Given there is a trial taking place)


----------



## anarchitektur

Donkey D Kong said:


> I broke a mirror and got seven years of bad luck. Do you think you could get me down to three years?


That depends... do you have any priors? If there's a pattern of mirror breaking, it'll be much more difficult to work out a deal. Also, was it your mirror or someone else's? Finally, and most importantly, can you pay my $2,500 retainer?


----------



## anarchitektur

Gossip Goat said:


> Is being in a lawyer in a courtroom as heated as some people think? (Given there is a trial taking place)


On rare occasions, it can be. Usually, though, it's pretty drab. I was in court for 4 hours this morning, and most of it was spent staring at the ceiling and waiting for my case to be called. In that time, though, it did get a little heated between two female attorneys, and every male in the court room perked up a bit. I guarantee everyone (probably even the judge) was thinking, "Ohhhh... cat fight!!!"


----------



## Donkey D Kong

anarchitektur said:


> That depends... do you have any priors? If there's a pattern of mirror breaking, it'll much more difficult to work out a deal. Also, was it your mirror or someone else's? Finally, and most importantly, can you pay my $2,500 retainer?


I don't have any priors and it was my own mirror! I believe I can pay the $2,500. This is important because I can't afford to have 7 years of bad luck.


----------



## Gossip Goat

What's your opinion on people want to be lawyers only because of the money or because they claim they are good at argumentation? Do you need to be good at being argumentative?


----------



## anarchitektur

Gossip Goat said:


> What's your opinion on people want to be lawyers only because of the money or because they claim they are good at argumentation? Do you need to be good at being argumentative?


I don't need a crystal ball to foresee disappointment in their future.

Being argumentative isn't hard... all you have to do is say "nuh uh" after everything someone says. So, there's a big difference between being argumentative and being able to win arguments.


----------



## Gossip Goat

How did you know you wanted to be a lawyer? What sparked your interest?


----------



## anarchitektur

Gossip Goat said:


> How did you know you wanted to be a lawyer? What sparked your interest?


The money and being argumentative. :wink:


Serious answer: I wanted to do challenging and intellectually-stimulating work because I felt like what I was doing in the IT industry was trite and meaningless. In retrospect, it was kind of a hackneyed reason, but I'm relatively satisfied with how things have turned out.


----------



## baby blue me

Darkstar said:


> Damn, can't blame a guy for trying.


You're toooo funny. Hahaha! A lawyer who's funny. Are you real? LOL!


----------



## Darkstar

baby blue me said:


> You're toooo funny. Hahaha! A lawyer who's funny. Are you real? LOL!


Geppetto always tells me I'm real so I sure hope so!


----------



## Korpasov

@anarchitektur -

I'm a recent grad and aspiring lawyer. Know any good internships for people like me? My background is in bio and the plan is patent law, but I haven't started law school yet.


----------



## conscius

anarchitektur, thank you for making this thread.

I am an INFP and I am in a difficult position because I value harmony and loving relationships and cooperation; but also social justice, which means being exposed to conflict and challenges, and sometimes the very ugly side of humanity. I suppose it would be fine if I could, assuming I could become a lawyer, bring people together and also make good money (to help myself and my family...I come from poverty and money is quite important to me) but having spoken to a lawyer online, apparently you have leave values by the door when you go into law. Is this true? 

He told me my views and beliefs don't matter, that as a lawyer I'm always representing SOMEONE ELSE and what matters is _that person_'s values or beliefs or interests. In other words, if a woman wants to screw her poor husband out of his savings, that should be my focus. If a sadistic guy wants to get full custody of his kids and torture his sickly wife, then that should be my focus. If a company wants to lay off most workers in a way to protect itself but screw the worker, then that should be my focus. That it all depends on my client and what they want. This disturbed me. So what is your view on this. Thank you.


----------



## Darkstar

Korpasov said:


> @_anarchitektur_ -
> 
> I'm a recent grad and aspiring lawyer. Know any good internships for people like me? My background is in bio and the plan is patent law, but I haven't started law school yet.


(1) Make sure you satisfy the requirements of the patent bar: Limited Time $495 - Patent Bar Exam - Patent Bar Review Course - Patent Bar Study Materials
(2) If you don't want to go straight to law school, considering work for the U.S. Patent Office or working for a pharmaceutical company for a few years.
(3) Due to an overabundance of life science majors seeking patent positions, consider getting a PhD or obtaining a second BS (or MS) in electrical engineering/mechanical engineering.


----------



## anarchitektur

Korpasov said:


> I'm a recent grad and aspiring lawyer. Know any good internships for people like me? My background is in bio and the plan is patent law, but I haven't started law school yet.


It really depends on where you live. Most people get an internship after their first year of law school, but it is possible to do it beforehand if you are extremely qualified for something... a friend of mine from law school has a background in biology and got snatched up real quick by MD Anderson Cancer Center, but he also has a PhD in Virology and Gene Therapy.


----------



## anarchitektur

conscius said:


> anarchitektur, thank you for making this thread.
> 
> I am an INFP and I am in a difficult position because I value harmony and loving relationships and cooperation; but also social justice, which means being exposed to conflict and challenges, and sometimes the very ugly side of humanity. I suppose it would be fine if I could, assuming I could become a lawyer, bring people together and also make good money (to help myself and my family...I come from poverty and money is quite important to me) but having spoken to a lawyer online, apparently you have leave values by the door when you go into law. Is this true?
> 
> He told me my views and beliefs don't matter, that as a lawyer I'm always representing SOMEONE ELSE and what matters is _that person_'s values or beliefs or interests. In other words, if a woman wants to screw her poor husband out of his savings, that should be my focus. If a sadistic guy wants to get full custody of his kids and torture his sickly wife, then that should be my focus. If a company wants to lay off most workers in a way to protect itself but screw the worker, then that should be my focus. That it all depends on my client and what they want. This disturbed me. So what is your view on this. Thank you.


I touched on this earlier, but it bears repeating. Yes, it is true that it is your job to represent your client. However, a job is not some Faustian covenant where you are obliged to do whatever evil thing your client's heart desires. For one thing, you are not only allowed, you are also _encouraged _to try talk clients out of bad decisions, regardless of whether those decisions are bad for financial, legal, ethical, or moral grounds. And if they don't want to listen to you and still want to pursue a path that you don't feel comfortable going down, just withdraw from representing them. Clients can fire attorneys, attorneys can fire clients. Simple.


----------



## Darkstar

anarchitektur said:


> I touched on this earlier, but it bears repeating. Yes, it is true that it is your job to represent your client. However, a job is not some Faustian covenant where you are obliged to do whatever evil thing your client's heart desires. For one thing, you are not only allowed, you are also _encouraged _to try talk clients out of bad decisions, regardless of whether those decisions are bad for financial, legal, ethical, or moral grounds. And if they don't want to listen to you and still want to pursue a path that you don't feel comfortable going down, just withdraw from representing them. Clients can fire attorneys, attorneys can fire clients. Simple.


Most problems may arise where you are not your own boss (see lowly associate with great power disparity to superiors), the particular client happens to be a significant portion of your book of business, you're desperate for clients. At the end, you just have to decide what is more important - your dignity and morality vs. money to either pay back your loans or fund your current level of living (golden handcuffs).


----------



## PowerShell

What do you think of Hamline University (I considered going there but have foregone law school for the time being)?


----------



## anarchitektur

PowerShell said:


> What do you think of Hamline University (I considered going there but have foregone law school for the time being)?


Never heard of it.


----------



## anarchitektur

Darkstar said:


> Most problems may arise where you are not your own boss (see lowly associate with great power disparity to superiors), the particular client happens to be a significant portion of your book of business, you're desperate for clients. At the end, you just have to decide what is more important - your dignity and morality vs. money to either pay back your loans or fund your current level of living (golden handcuffs).


This is very true, but in that respect it is no different than any other industry.


----------



## Darkstar

PowerShell said:


> What do you think of Hamline University (I considered going there but have foregone law school for the time being)?


No. 

For the love of God no. These days I say it's not worth it unless you get into a school ranked in the top 14 and even then hopefully with some scholarship money. Anything outside of top 14 and you'll likely have to be in the top 5%-10% of your class (and even then additional factors like where you want to work, your interviewing skills, etc. play a great deal into it) and that's way too difficult/unpredictable to guarantee. If you went that route, I hope you have a full scholarship (or something along those lines). Since you mentioned Hamline, I'm assuming you might be from Minnesota. If that is the case and you want to stay close to home, consider U. Chicago, Northwestern, U. Michigan (Washington Univ. in St. Louis is just outside top 14). 

For Hamline Law in particular, the tuition of $19,095 alleviates the risk somewhat, but then you have to consider the cost of living expenses for those three years (say you add another $15,000) for a total of $35,000 each year and nearly $100,000 for the entire experience. You could work during the school year to reduce the debt, but that may detract too much from your studies (and for the most part the available legal internships/work for students during the school year don't really pay). Hamline is also ranked #126 (6 way tie though) among the 144 law schools that is ranked by US News. That is definitely not good news. Additionally, only 44.8% of the Class of 2013 obtained full-time, long-term employment requiring a J.D. nine months after graduation. So we're there you're looking at more than half of your class being unemployed or doing part-time work while the rest are likely mostly small firms and government with some non-profit (not very good pay).


----------



## Darkstar

anarchitektur said:


> This is very true, but in that respect it is no different than any other industry.


Yes, definitely. I think the kicker is the debt that saddles a newly minted lawyer as compared to what entrants into other industries have. The fear of not being able to pay your loans that can't be discharged through bankruptcy is a very big motivator.


----------



## PowerShell

Darkstar said:


> No.
> 
> For the love of God no. These days I say it's not worth it unless you get into a school ranked in the top 14 and even then hopefully with some scholarship money. Anything outside of top 14 and you'll likely have to be in the top 5%-10% of your class (and even then additional factors like where you want to work, your interviewing skills, etc. play a great deal into it) and that's way too difficult/unpredictable to guarantee. If you went that route, I hope you have a full scholarship (or something along those lines). Since you mentioned Hamline, I'm assuming you might be from Minnesota. If that is the case and you want to stay close to home, consider U. Chicago, Northwestern, U. Michigan (Washington Univ. in St. Louis is just outside top 14).
> 
> For Hamline Law in particular, the tuition of $19,095 alleviates the risk somewhat, but then you have to consider the cost of living expenses for those three years (say you add another $15,000) for a total of $35,000 each year and nearly $100,000 for the entire experience. You could work during the school year to reduce the debt, but that may detract too much from your studies (and for the most part the available legal internships/work for students during the school year don't really pay). Hamline is also ranked #126 (6 way tie though) among the 144 law schools that is ranked by US News. That is definitely not good news. Additionally, only 44.8% of the Class of 2013 obtained full-time, long-term employment requiring a J.D. nine months after graduation. So we're there you're looking at more than half of your class being unemployed or doing part-time work while the rest are likely mostly small firms and government with some non-profit (not very good pay).


I'm originally from Wisconsin (close enough) and what attracted me to Hamline was the weekend program they have. I'm in Austin, TX now so it's a little out of the question. I know if I ever became rich off one of my ideas, I'd get a law degree for the heck of it. Maybe I'd fly back to the Twin Cities or open an office there with my business. I'll also be starting my MBA in September so that will be a big focus for a while.


----------



## anarchitektur

Darkstar said:


> Yes, definitely. I think the kicker is the debt that saddles a newly minted lawyer as compared to what entrants into other industries. The fear of not being able to pay your loans that can't be discharged through bankruptcy is a very big motivator.


I certainly don't disagree with that. I graduated with very little debt, so in that respect I am very fortunate. The burden of debt is something that should be planned for _prior _to attending, not afterward. The fact that many students do not do this is primarily the fault of law schools, in my opinion, because of the way they present their employment statistics (or outright fabricate them), as well as their tendency to offer scholarships to incoming students who will likely not be able to maintain that scholarship past their first year, due to GPA requirements (i.e. maintaining a 3.5 or higher, etc).

In my case, I worked for five years prior to attending law school and saved up a lot of money to put toward my tuition and living expenses. I don't remember exactly how much I had saved, but it was roughly $90,000. In addition to this, I took only subsidized loans (which are now no longer available for graduate-level students), and had a sizable scholarship for the first two years. After my Federal Tax Law class screwed me over and dropped my GPA to 3.2, I lost the scholarship, but at that point I was able to cover the difference with savings. I graduated with $17,000 in debt, versus the $100,000+ of many of my classmates. That made a significant impact on the decisions I was able to make upon graduation about the direction I wanted to go with my career.


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## Darkstar

anarchitektur said:


> The fact that many students do not do this is primarily the fault of law schools, in my opinion, because of the way they present their employment statistics (or outright fabricate them), as well as their tendency to offer scholarships to incoming students who will likely not be able to maintain that scholarship past their first year, due to GPA requirements (i.e. maintaining a 3.5 or higher, etc).


Isn't that the truth. Too bad the law suits against the schools for fabricating their employment statistics were dismissed with prejudice or never went anywhere.


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## anarchitektur

Darkstar said:


> No.
> 
> For the love of God no. These days I say it's not worth it unless you get into a school ranked in the top 14 and even then hopefully with some scholarship money. Anything outside of top 14 and you'll likely have to be in the top 5%-10% of your class (and even then additional factors like where you want to work, your interviewing skills, etc. play a great deal into it) and that's way too difficult/unpredictable to guarantee. If you went that route, I hope you have a full scholarship (or something along those lines). Since you mentioned Hamline, I'm assuming you might be from Minnesota. If that is the case and you want to stay close to home, consider U. Chicago, Northwestern, U. Michigan (Washington Univ. in St. Louis is just outside top 14).
> 
> For Hamline Law in particular, the tuition of $19,095 alleviates the risk somewhat, but then you have to consider the cost of living expenses for those three years (say you add another $15,000) for a total of $35,000 each year and nearly $100,000 for the entire experience. You could work during the school year to reduce the debt, but that may detract too much from your studies (and for the most part the available legal internships/work for students during the school year don't really pay). Hamline is also ranked #126 (6 way tie though) among the 144 law schools that is ranked by US News. That is definitely not good news. Additionally, only 44.8% of the Class of 2013 obtained full-time, long-term employment requiring a J.D. nine months after graduation. So we're there you're looking at more than half of your class being unemployed or doing part-time work while the rest are likely mostly small firms and government with some non-profit (not very good pay).


As a counter-point to this, I did not go to a T14 school. I had no desire to leave Texas, and so I only applied to Texas schools. There is only one T14 school in Texas, and since I am not a minority or insanely wealthy, my 170 LSAT score wasn't enough to get me in. So, I worked with what I had available to me. I believe my school was tied for #59 at the time I went.

Whether or not it is worth it to you to do as I did and go to a lower-ranked school requires a lot of consideration of various factors, such as your finances, future plans, family status, career goals, etc. It is not impossible to be successful, regardless of what school you go to. Just realize that the odds are stacked against you, but that's true these days even if you go to a T14.


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## Darkstar

anarchitektur said:


> Just realize that the odds are stacked against you, but that's true these days even if you go to a T14.


Yes, unless you're at Yale or Harvard, it's still an upward climb. Pre-recession (before 2007), most of the T14 could place a comfortable 75% of their students in well-paying jobs. In today's world, I would say that's down to 40%-50% or so. Also, you have to consider that going to a T-14 also means your tuition will be much higher than outside of the T-14. For example, Cornell Law's tuition is $59,360 a year, Columbia Univ.'s tuition is $58,292. So your chances of getting a good paying job might increase, but so does your debt.


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## anarchitektur

Also, another factor to consider is where you're going to live after you graduate. Competing in big cities is very, very difficult, even if you have a degree from a T14. Likewise, the political leanings of your state and the judges of the courts in your area can also affect your ability to strike out on your own.

For instance, I was always more interested in being a plaintiff's lawyer than a defense lawyer. Texas is a very republican state over all, which is synonymous with "plaintiff loses." However, to get my firm started, I relocated to an area of Texas that is very plaintiff-friendly, so that I could win cases more easily and thus start to make money.


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## Darkstar

2: Number of attorneys I know who have cried in their offices due to the stress of the job. 
1: Number of attorneys I know who have died from the stress of the job (heart attack).
32: Age of attorney who died from the stress of the job. 
100: Hours a week the attorney was working when death came a knocking.


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## anarchitektur

I handle stress the healthy way: by verbally lashing out at those around me.


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## Darkstar

anarchitektur said:


> I handle stress the healthy way: by verbally lashing out at those around me.


Oh definitely. I love giving my secretary a tongue lashing. It builds character.


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## PowerShell

What do you think of the market in the Texas Triangle mega-region for technology law (patents, etc). I know at a meetup here in Austin, I was told that it might be a good idea to pursue a law degree since all the tech companies are fleeing California for Texas but still have a lot of their legal teams in California so there is a huge demand for good tech law lawyers here.


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## Razare

I have a bachelor's in accounting. I have toyed with the idea of becoming a tax attorney. Do you have any experience with tax attorneys? Just kind of would like to know what their job is like.


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## anarchitektur

PowerShell said:


> What do you think of the market in the Texas Triangle mega-region for technology law (patents, etc). I know at a meetup here in Austin, I was told that it might be a good idea to pursue a law degree since all the tech companies are fleeing California for Texas but still have a lot of their legal teams in California so there is a huge demand for good tech law lawyers here.


I know a lot of patent lawyers in Houston. Mostly they do stuff related to petrochemical and mechanical engineering patents, since Houston is basically the world's energy capital, but there's also a fair amount of tech patenting going on, too. I'm sure it pales in comparison to the volume out of Silicon Valley, though.


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