# The dark side of porn



## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

I think one of the main problems with porn is that it conditions people to be aroused by voyeurism and unending novelty, and away from first person interaction.

Also mainstream porn is getting more and more inclined towards mixing in violence and sex. There's a mainstream site that features very popular pornstars and basically shows simulated rape scenes, but I think it has mainstream acceptance because the women don't verball protest; they may fight, or say 'what are you doing?' but they never say 'no', 'stop' or 'please don't do this'. And the women eventually begin to get aroused and orgasm by what initially started as out as rape.

Another genre of porn that's gaining popularity is 'gagging', this genre is explicity about using a woman as a sexual object that deserves no empathy. Often the women will gag, become teary eyed, and have difficulty breathing.

Recently I quit porn after I realized that porn was supernormal stimuli, and that I was conditioning myself away from genuine sensation and physical contact. And one of the things that disturbed me about my porn use is that I realized I was increaslingly becoming aroused by female discomfort. 

I think the movie surrogates with Bruce Willis is a good allegory for porn's effect on society. 






Basically I think porn is to sex, what Mcdonalds is to nutrition.

Myths of Porn

Articles on Porn Addiction & Sexuality | Your Brain On Porn






Please share your thoughts.


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## alexande (Jan 8, 2012)

Yeah I'm not sure who the target audience for porn is, but as a 21 yr old man I certainly think its trash. I much prefer my imagination to watching some woman be gagged or raped. Also all the weird fetish shit that's in porn these days wtf?


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## GoodOldDreamer (Sep 8, 2011)

Where there's a demand, there's a market to exploit. Greed is known to override anything resembling ethics.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

ALOT of porn is smut and I can't stand it. I can't watch gagging, or gangbangs, or humiliations of men or women. Its disgusting and animialistic. I stick to normal people having normal sex which is why if I do watch porn, it will be amateur or homemade stuff. What I hate the most about modern porn is that it is convincing men and women that its normal. Its not. I'd break up with someone if they asked me to ever do most of that stuff. Anal isn't even daring anymore. People are trying anal before vaginal. Because of porn and the sex driven media, I've actually considered becoming celibate for a few years. It just gets to be too much after a while. Makes a person need a damn detox.


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## sprinkles (Feb 7, 2010)

From what I can see, companies rushed to cash in on things that used to be niche stuff. I can still remember a time when this trash wasn't commonly accepted, but a market grew out of it due to shady companies realizing there are people out there who will pay money for stuff that they'd otherwise have a hard time getting - problem is that so many companies had the same idea that they've flooded the market with garbage and it's prevailing now.


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## knittigan (Sep 2, 2011)

I agree with your basic argument (re. voyeurism and novelty), but it's unclear to me why voyeurism is an inherently unhealthy sexual practice. Obviously if someone _wants_ to be aroused by their partner but is unable to because of the amount of porn they consume, there is a "problem". But people are attracted to voyeurism for all sorts of reasons and I'm not sure that porn does condition people into voyeuristic sexuality to that extent: there are lots of things about first person interaction that porn will always, by nature, lack and many of them are more exciting than the novel expression of voyeurism that porn provides, e.g. smell, taste, touch.

One of the problems with making any kind of argument about what porn is or isn't or what porn does or does not do is that defining pornography is notoriously difficult. There are many, _many, many, *many*_ things that can be considered pornographic and the distinction itself is largely subjective. Yes, violent porn exists, but so do many other genres and not everyone enjoys or watches violent porn, women and men included. 

It's also worth pointing out that people consume porn in different ways. Queuing up several clips at once and skipping ahead to the most explicit parts is drastically different than watching something from start to finish is, and in the case of the latter, I can't see how it's really any different than reading erotica or something of a similar nature. Some people watch porn alone, others watch it with their partners. Although the voyeurism aspect remains, there is a difference between watching something alone and watching something with other people -- depending on how you watch, the latter can more or less be a social activity. 

I would also point out that the violent sexuality that is expressed against women in "mainstream" porn also shows up in a lot of other places -- advertising, music, film, television, theatre, literature -- so I don't know how useful it is to point a finger at porn specifically. I agree that that kind of violence is highly problematic and disturbing, but I don't think that it's possible to assign strict causality between what happens in pornography and what happens in the real world. Although it's tempting to think that we all consume media like passive drones, most people do engage with the things that they see, as is evidenced by your analysis of the porn you used to watch. And I think that it's really great to think critically about these things, but I don't think that it's fair to suggest that people who watch porn don't do the same. I'm not trying to say that we aren't influenced by the media, but it is to point out that you can be aroused by something as a fantasy that you would never act on in reality (for many reasons, but one of them is that it simply isn't appealing).

Pornography has been around for centuries, although in different forms, and I don't know if it's possible to make the argument that it has been denigrating 'natural' sexuality since its creation (and how do we begin to define natural sexuality?), so I think that it's worth pointing out that the problem may not be with porn in and of itself but with the form that porn takes under capitalism, especially in the age of the internet.


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## JoetheBull (Apr 29, 2010)

I am a porn addict with social anxiety disorder, depression, and generally bad mental health. I think I would still have the same problems even if I wasn't addicted to porn. I have tried to quit because I do waste too much time on porn and it does get me depressed reminding me this is the closest to sex I get to experience(once again my fault completely. Porn isn't the cause of my complete abstence of luck with dating and relationships). I have tried limited porn to hentai since I tend to be very picky about what hentai I read or look at and usually more attracted to or critical of the artwork.

Not a very big fan of a lot of the really hardcore porn. Which is why looking up porn takes up so much time. Really hard to find ones that aren't that hardcore. lol


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## SenhorFrio (Apr 29, 2010)

Rough sex does not equate to simulated rape, almost all the porn I see has a little interview beforehand where the girl says that they want to do this and that they enjoy it. I happen to personally know a girl who has a gagging fetish, and their are plenty of girls and guys who enjoy rough sex.

People have their own sexual preferences and aslong as they are not actually raping people it isn't wrong, I reject the notion that soft "normal" sex is the only right way.

It is hypociritcal, why doesn't anyone ever complain that femdom is degrading to men?


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## dalsgaard (Aug 14, 2010)

I've also quit porn after hearing Gary Wilson's arguments. But we ought to remember that his argument is less about porn itself, and more about overstimulation. The mammalian brain we're all equipped with, is easily aroused by various supersized natural stimuli. We're wired to be aroused when we eat high-energy foods, but in no way are we genetically predispositioned to eat McDonalds, and therefore we get fat. The same kind of addiction to overstimulation, binging, and generally overindulging can happen in pretty much all areas of life. We think of addiction as something requiring a drug, but the brain can get drugged up and dependant on its own chemicals.

After I quit porn, I've come to realize that I was a sex addict. It took that long to realize it, partly because I was in denial, but also because people don't talk about it. "Sex is good for you!", "Masturbation is good for your health!", "Sexual release decreases blood-pressure!". Everyone's constantly talking about how good an active sex-life is, but they neglect to mention that it's only good to a certain extent. My overactive porn and masturbation habits, have made me depressed, lethargic, chronically bored, anxious and socially awkward for must of my life.

Porn, sex and masturbation is perfectly okay for most people, by the way. I just know that I have issues with it, and have made a personal choice to cut down severely for my own personal health reasons.


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## knittigan (Sep 2, 2011)

SenhorFrio said:


> It is hypociritcal, why doesn't anyone ever complain that femdom is degrading to men?


Probably because femdom is considered a fetish/niche/novelty, whereas violence against/degradation of women is found in "mainstream"/"normal" porn.


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## Everyday Ghoul (Aug 4, 2009)

I like violent and abusive pornography. I love porno where the woman abuses the fuck out of the guy. More towards the psychological end, but I certainly like to see slapping, spanking, hitting, pinching, biting, burning with cigarettes, etc. My favorites are wives sleeping with another man, while verbally degrading the fuck out of the husband and forcing him to "clean up" afterward. This comes from real life sexual experience. If I could find a woman willing to dominate me in these ways, in real life, I'd be in fucking heaven. Sadly, it's not yet happened. All of the women I've been with, have wanted to be dominated. I do find it odd, that I'm actually disturbed by pornography, that depicts violence and degradation towards women, when I love porn, that depicts all these things towards men. I'll admit there's some sort of conditioning at hand, there. I've had a few partners, who openly expressed being displeased with my inability to pull their hair, bite them, and slap their ass hard enough. It's very hard to be a submissive, masochistic male.


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## Paradox1987 (Oct 9, 2010)

I'm relatively ambivalent towards pornography. In the same way I'm ambivalent towards McDonalds. They have pros and cons, and I try and run my life by the policy of "nothing to excess." I know where my one-on-one interaction sexual lines are, both in what I will do, and what I allow to be done to me. However, if a partner was to harbour a fantasy which crossed one of my lines and pornographic material satisfied that fantasy, I'd probably not care. In fact, it would make sense to me; again, provided the fantasy isn't indulged in to the point of excess.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

knittigan said:


> I would also point out that the violent sexuality that is expressed against women in "mainstream" porn also shows up in a lot of other places -- advertising, music, film, television, theatre, literature -- so I don't know how useful it is to point a finger at porn specifically. I agree that that kind of violence is highly problematic and disturbing, but I don't think that it's possible to assign strict causality between what happens in pornography and what happens in the real world. Although it's tempting to think that we all consume media like passive drones, most people do engage with the things that they see, as is evidenced by your analysis of the porn you used to watch. And I think that it's really great to think critically about these things, but I don't think that it's fair to suggest that people who watch porn don't do the same. I'm not trying to say that we aren't influenced by the media, but it is to point out that you can be aroused by something as a fantasy that you would never act on in reality (for many reasons, but one of them is that it simply isn't appealing).


Sorry if I gave you the impression that I believe watching rape simulation and gagging caused men to what do go out and do those acts - I don't believe that. 

I simply find it disturbing that explicit female discomfort is mainstream porn. 



> Pornography has been around for centuries, although in different forms, and I don't know if it's possible to make the argument that it has been denigrating 'natural' sexuality since its creation (and how do we begin to define natural sexuality?), so I think that it's worth pointing out that the problem may not be with porn in and of itself but with the form that porn takes under capitalism, especially in the age of the internet.


Yes I agree. I actually should have made that clear - the form of porn that is now prevalent is the problem.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

SenhorFrio said:


> Rough sex does not equate to simulated rape, almost all the porn I see has a little interview beforehand where the girl says that they want to do this and that they enjoy it. I happen to personally know a girl who has a gagging fetish, and their are plenty of girls and guys who enjoy rough sex.


My argument wasn't that I found rough sex disturbing, it was specifically against simulated rape. 

Like I said; there is an extremely popular porn site that is self-proclaimed 'the worlds best porn site' (I'm sure you know which one I'm talking about now). And one of their most successful sub-sites involves simulated rape scenarios where the women doesn't explicitly ask the man to stop, and eventually begins to enjoy it (I'm sure you know what site I'm talking about now). There's a difference between simple rough sex and the context of those scenes - it's simulated rape.

If someone is turned on by simulated rape, that's their business. However I think many men would be shocked if they read genuine rape testimonies, and then re-watched the scenes on those sites - because they didn't realize that they were watching simulated rape. 

Femdom isn't the most prevalent form of porn IMO and IME.

I disagree that professional porn is sex - it's a product.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Darth Nihilus said:


> I like violent and abusive pornography. I love porno where the woman abuses the fuck out of the guy. More towards the psychological end, but I certainly like to see slapping, spanking, hitting, pinching, biting, burning with cigarettes, etc. My favorites are wives sleeping with another man, while verbally degrading the fuck out of the husband and forcing him to "clean up" afterward. This comes from real life sexual experience. If I could find a woman willing to dominate me in these ways, in real life, I'd be in fucking heaven. Sadly, it's not yet happened. All of the women I've been with, have wanted to be dominated. I do find it odd, that I'm actually disturbed by pornography, that depicts violence and degradation towards women, when I love porn, that depicts all these things towards men. I'll admit there's some sort of conditioning at hand, there. I've had a few partners, who openly expressed being displeased with my inability to pull their hair, bite them, and slap their ass hard enough. It's very hard to be a submissive, masochistic male.


Excellent trolling.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

dalsgaard said:


> I've also quit porn after hearing Gary Wilson's arguments. But we ought to remember that his argument is less about porn itself, and more about overstimulation.


My personal decision wasn't just based on Gary Wilson, it was also based on Robert Jenson's arguments. And actually an Andy Thomson lecture on religion, in which he talked about how and why fast food is supernormal stimuli - it helped me to realize that porn is supernormal stimuli.

Also it was based on transactional analysis - the parent-child ego state dynamics that I often saw depicted in scenario based porn made me increasingly uncomfortable.


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## jeffbobs (Jan 27, 2012)

strangestdude said:


> I think one of the main problems with porn is that it conditions people to be aroused by voyeurism and unending novelty, and away from first person interaction.
> 
> Also mainstream porn is getting more and more inclined towards mixing in violence and sex. A mainstream site that features very popular pornstars and basically shows simulated rape scenes, but I think it has mainstream acceptance because the women don't verball protest; they may fight, or say 'what are you doing?' but they never say 'no' 'stop' or 'please don't do this'. And they the women eventually begin to get aroused and orgasm but what initially started as out as rape.
> 
> ...






 
it is a 3 parter, watch it all if u want to learn, Don't watch it if you tend to ignore any facts presented to you that prove you wrong


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

jeffbobs said:


> it is a 3 parter, watch it all if u want to learn, Don't watch it if you tend to ignore any facts presented to you that prove you wrong


I watched it. I generally like Penn and Teller, but you have to remember that in order to make their show entertaining they find the most 'extreme' arguments against something that they support. But they are generally insightful. 

If you think that 3 parter debunks my perspective, you've either strawmanned me or haven't read anything I've written. 

I haven't stated that I desire legislation against porn - and I don't. You can dislike or believe that something is harmful without demanding legislation against it.

Nor have I stated that porn causes people to be sexual criminals, and I don't - I already stated that explicitly in a previous post.

I haven't stated that my perspective is based on scientific research - it's based on introspection and contemplation.

For example; Would you want your daughter or sister to be a porn star? And if not why? (I'm not asking about other career choices, I'm specifically asking about professional porn).

Professional porn is a marketed and tailored product - I don't think there is anything wrong with contemplating and discussing the effects of this products effect on ourselves and society.


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## knittigan (Sep 2, 2011)

strangestdude said:


> Sorry if I gave you the impression that I believe watching rape simulation and gagging caused men to what do go out and do those acts - I don't believe that.
> 
> I simply find it disturbing that explicit female discomfort is mainstream porn.


No, I know you didn't. I wasn't accrediting that to you, I was just thinking out loud because it's an argument that often gets brought up in discussions of porn and I wanted to talk about it :tongue:

My main point was that it seems a bit disingenuous to target porn in terms of explicit visual representations of women being hurt, raped, beaten, etc. in porn when there are visual representations of women being hurt, raped, beaten, etc. *everywhere*. By all means, it's something that we ought to be concerned about, but the scope is a lot larger than porn.

High fashion advertising is probably where it becomes most explicit, but it also is a prevalent theme in television, film, regular advertising, and music videos. I'm going to post some photos under spoiler tags because they're quite upsetting. Feel free to skip over them if it bothers you, but I'll make the point that that these pictures aren't exceptional by any means for high fashion ads.


* *









































As Marina Delvecchio points out, "[Artistic teams] argue that this is creative expression, but it surely isn’t. And if it is, then what are they creatively expressing—that violence and brutality become women? That it is OK and commonplace to fantasize over dead or assaulted women? That they’re sexier and hotter when they’re dead, lying in a pool of their own blood?"

It's strong language, but it's a very valid point. Dead women are everywhere in the media. Battered women are everywhere in the media. And the question that really begs to be asked, is why. Why do advertisers think that we would buy a product when our only association to it is that of graphic violence against women? Why do screenwriters and directors and producers think that we want to see women raped, beaten, tortured, and killed while we're unwinding in front of the television after work? 

The Parents Television Council found that there’s been a 400 percent increase in the depiction of teen girls as victims across all networks from 2004 to 2009. Incidences of violence against women on ABC, CBS, Fox and NBC rose 120 percent from 2004 to 2009, while other types of violence during the same time frame increased only 2 percent. The most frequent type of violence shown is beating (29%), followed by credible threats of violence (18%), shooting (11%), rape (8%), stabbing (6%), and torture (2%). Violence against women tends to be depicted rather than just described, and that of the above violent storylines, the acts resulted in the woman’s death 19 percent of the time.

Like I said before, I more or less agree with you, but what I'm trying to get at is that violence against women is a much more widespread problem than simply what is depicted in mainstream porn. It happens in the media literally everywhere, and more importantly, it happens in real life -- and so it's really important not to present what happens in porn as an isolated incident. Sorry for the slight derail and I apologise for beating the dead horse, but I wanted to make my point more clearly since it seems like you only responded to the last sentence of what you quoted.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

@knittigan

Thanks for your posts, and I agree that the topic of female depictions in advertising is a topic worthy of discussion.

TBH your sentiment is a pretty common one that I've observed in numerous discussion, a person bring up a topic and someone complains that they are ignoring related issues.

My basic reply is; for the purposes of constructive discussion we have to have a foundational context/topic, without it we would literally talk about everything - because everything is literally interconnected. If we didn't limit our focus discussions would become incredibly convoluted and devoid of context.


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## SenhorFrio (Apr 29, 2010)

strangestdude said:


> I personally haven't come across a leftist critique of amateur pornography.
> 
> I don't get why you don't apply the same leftist analysis of corporate culture and consumerism to the pornography industry?
> 
> From the same article;


 Pornography isn't really "marketed" in the convetional sense, it can't be advertised in most form of media, both modern and tradtional. The only place you see in marketed is on other pornsites for the most part.

Most of the time pornography is free, sure you can pay to get the better quality stuff, but alot of the time people don't do so it doesn't really tingle my anti-capitalist senses.

I don't think that pornography is an exploitive industry, because people have the free will to particapape or not, if an educated who has options wants to be a in porn why not? This isn't pimps forcing people into sexual slavery. I don't understand how a woman sucking a man's dick is some symbol of sexist opression. Some women enjoy the act of it, and as i have said i personally know a girl who has a gagging fetish.

I part with the left on issues of the media shaping culture,It's not really a debate for this thread, but i don't agree wth the whole social constructionist views that many on the left hold.


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## SenhorFrio (Apr 29, 2010)

strangestdude said:


> But I think you're naive if you believe that the majority of orgasms and professed sexual gratification from females in porn is genuine. (if you are using that as a basis for believing that the majority of them enjoy their job).


I don't believe the majority are real, and TBH i try not to think about that while i'm watching.

I'm not going to claim that the majority enjoy their job, i have no statistics what so ever to make such a claim. 

I would say however that the best porn performers do enjoy their job and clearly have very high sex drives.


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

SenhorFrio said:


> I don't really connect my politcal views with my views about pornography, My views about pornography stem more from personal experience and epicurean philosophy that is things that pleasureable and produce little harm are good.


I don't think anyone would disagree that things that are pleasurable and produce little harm are good. I think people disagree with your assertion that pornography necessarily causes "little harm." I'm sure it causes little harm to you personally, but I am more concerned with the exploitation that goes into producing it. One could also say an iPad is good because it is pleasurable and produces little harm, as long as they ignore the millions of Chinese slaves who produce the iPad. Again, please keep in mind I am not trying to police your personal habits: I'm obviously posting this from some sort of electronic device produced by slave labor so I have little room to talk. I am just saying that just because the harm is not visible does not mean it's not there. For every performer who genuinely enjoys the work there's others who put up with it for the money or who have little other choice, or who has plenty of terrible things to say about the industry (see Jenna Jameson - I always find it curious that porn defenders seem to completely ignore people who actually worked in the industry when they say these things).



SenhorFrio said:


> It is quite a personal issue for me, I used to feel like i was so kind of freak for having a high sex drive and watching porn alot, or that I people would think i was sexist or just not a good person because of it. But i have since learned otherwise and I want to remove the unjustifed guilt associated with it from myself and others.


I can understand that and I just want to repeat I'm not judging you or trying to police your personal habits. I have my own preferences that I've been made to feel ashamed of in the past so I can relate. I'm just criticizing pornography as an institution and industry itself, not its consumers. 



SenhorFrio said:


> I don't really agree that these "multibillion dollar conglomerates" are shaping culture either intentionally or accidently. I don't see how it would be a barrier to sexual freedom, it exposes people to all sorts of diffrent types of sexualities and people can find their own preferences


I think this is a really strange position for a leftist to have. Do you not think marketing and advertising and the media shape the culture? Obviously they do. So why wouldn't pornography, which is a multibillion dollar industry, and a huge part of the media in general? 

The reason it's a barrier to sexual freedom is that you are giving a few conglomerates run by a few very wealthy people the power to shape the culture. Pornography can restrict and shame as much as it can be freeing, think about the oft-used example of the porn fan boyfriend trying to talk his partner into doing all sorts of things he saw in porn that she may not want to do. I think the way to sexual freedom is to destroy this industry and to let people produce the kind of erotic art and media that they want to produce, not what they can make the most money off of.



SenhorFrio said:


> Pornography isn't really "marketed" in the convetional sense, it can't be advertised in most form of media, both modern and tradtional. The only place you see in marketed is on other pornsites for the most part.


I think you're using too narrow a definition of "marketing" here. Tons of people know who porn stars are, understand porn terminology, etc. without really watching porn. Porn stars appear on talk shows, they get talked about on Entertainment Tonight, they get retweeted, all of that is marketing.



SenhorFrio said:


> I don't think that pornography is an exploitive industry, because people have the free will to particapape or not, if an educated who has options wants to be a in porn why not? This isn't pimps forcing people into sexual slavery. I don't understand how a woman sucking a man's dick is some symbol of sexist opression. Some women enjoy the act of it, and as i have said i personally know a girl who has a gagging fetish.


Do you not think wage slavery is exploitative in and of itself? What definition of exploitation are you using here? 

You say it's not pimps forcing women into sexual slavery but I mean...it's not as black and white as you're making it out to be either. Lots of times performers can be pushed beyond their limits of what's comfortable but they have little legal recourse after they sign the contract, since legally that's "consent." Does that make it okay? Should she have just read the contract more carefully before she signed? 

I don't think you understand our objections here, no one thinks a woman having sex with a man is exploitative or oppressive or sexist. That's not related to anything here at all. I also don't think anyone here denies that some performers genuinely enjoy the work. I mean, I don't even mind a woman deciding that, given a choice between pornography and Wal-Mart, she'd rather work in porn because she finds that more enjoyable/rewarding/tolerable. What I and others object to is the fact that women are put in a position where they are forced to make that choice in the first place!

EDIT: I missed some of your responses so sorry if I'm repeating questions others asked you. Quick question - why do you part from the left on the capacity of media, marketing, etc to shape culture? What's your basis for this?


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

SenhorFrio said:


> Pornography isn't really "marketed" in the convetional sense, it can't be advertised in most form of media, both modern and tradtional. The only place you see in marketed is on other pornsites for the most part.


There are many porn programmes on commercial TV - seymour butts reality show, playboy mansion, etc. 

And playboy is worldwide brand, I've even seen someone get a playboy tattoo (I thought it was insane to get a corporate logo tattooed on your body, but I later realized the power of marketing; bonding a brand with a set of values/lifestyle).



> Most of the time pornography is free, sure you can pay to get the better quality stuff, but alot of the time people don't do so it doesn't really tingle my anti-capitalist senses.


The next time you're on the free sites check out the amount of advertisements on the site - it's not free, it's paid for by advertisments. 



> I don't think that pornography is an exploitive industry, because people have the free will to particapape or not, if an educated who has options wants to be a in porn why not? This isn't pimps forcing people into sexual slavery. I don't understand how a woman sucking a man's dick is some symbol of sexist opression. Some women enjoy the act of it, and as i have said i personally know a girl who has a gagging fetish.


Some mainstream porn titles, and scenarios are inherently sexist and racist IMO. 

Look at how non-white people are framed in pornography titles and interracial website titles. 

I personally think there's there is doublethink in people who claim that porn isn't a sexist. They ignore mainstream porn's language; slut, whore, dirty bitch, dirty slut - why are the women being called these derogatory terms? 

I don't consider sex 'dirty' or a women who enjoys sex a 'slut' yet that's the language routinely used. 

Would you consider a white MMA promoter who routinely called black athletes '*******' or '*****' as non-racist? Then why can male producers and male performers routinely frame women who engage in sex acts as 'dirty' or 'sluts' - and not be considered sexist? 

I think there is a normalization of patriarchy in porn.



> I part with the left on issues of the media shaping culture,It's not really a debate for this thread, but i don't agree wth the whole social constructionist views that many on the left hold.


That's a shame. I'm not leftist (I'm in political limbo) but I agree with Neil Postman and leftists critiques of the media's effect on culture.


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## SenhorFrio (Apr 29, 2010)

@_Shahada_ & @Strangest dude
I'm starting to have to repeat some of my anwsers in my replies to each of you, refer to some of my previous post for replies on certain ponts



> That's a shame. I'm not leftist (I'm in political limbo) but I agree with Neil
> Postman and leftists critiques of the media's effect on culture.


If you want to understand my perspective on this i recommend reading _The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature_ by Steven Pinker, but like i said that not a debate for this thread.




> Some mainstream porn titles, and scenarios are inherently sexist and racist
> IMO.
> Look at how non-white people are framed in pornography titles and
> interracial website titles.


TBH I mostly agree with you about the racist point, it can go pretty overboard in that regard.



> I personally think there's there is doublethink in people who claim that porn
> isn't a sexist yet ignore mainstream porn's language; slut, whore, dirty bitch,
> dirty slut - why are the women being called these derogatory terms?


From a purely pragmatic sense these words are used correctly in porn, those word mean a woman who has alot of sex, I don't deny there is negative connotation though.



> Do you not think wage slavery is exploitative in and of itself? What definition
> of exploitation are you using here?


If you want to get technical, all work is wage slavery.

Exploitation: Utilization of another person or group for selfish purposes(from thefreedictionary.com)

Porn performers benefit from their actions they are paid for it, if some were secretly filming people having sex and making money that would be exploitation

P.S sorry that these are somewhat out of order.


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## dalsgaard (Aug 14, 2010)

Shahada said:


> At the same time I do agree it is not useful or worthwhile to try to police people's sexual tastes or preferences. I don't think @strangestdude is trying to do that and most people making the arguments he's making don't really either, but it is a sort of thin line. I think a lot of times people take criticism of pornography too personally and think their own sexuality is being attacked or criticized. Personally I've learned that, especially when it comes to sex, people like what they like and there's not a lot of use trying to talk them out of it, and I'm totally okay with that. I do think the modern pornography industry has a lot to do with shaping modern sexual attitudes (particularly among men), but I find this troubling mostly because of the huge amount of power this gives to the industry and the people who run it. It's just another (significant) piece in the huge desire-manufacturing society that we live in today. The pornography industry creates demand and desire for certain things (that can be commodified and sold, of course) just as every other industry creates demand and desire for certain things, and when we see certain trends emerging in this industry (and I do think @strangestdude is correct that the amount of violent pornography in the mainstream is a clear trend) I think it behooves us to question why these trends are appearing. I also think "well people just like it" is not a convincing explanation.
> 
> I feel like I made this clear enough but just in case: None of the above is an argument against rough sex or unusual/taboo sex in any way, assuming all parties are consenting and so on of course. I also think I made this clear but this is not exclusive to the porn industry either, not even the violence against women part, as @knittigan covered earlier. In particular I have to say I was quite shocked at the prevalence of violence against women in high fashion. I first read about the phenomenon probably a few months ago and as a person who's not normally exposed to/very interested in that industry I was genuinely shocked at how explicit and violent some of those press photos are.
> 
> EDIT: To address something that came up in the last couple of pages: I don't necessarily think exposure to porn "damages" people, and I think that's a problematic way of looking at it anyway. But I think if you are a male who spent a significant amount of time of your sexually formative years looking at pornography (and probably even if you didn't, but consumed a significant amount of pornography as an adult - sexuality is pretty fluid IMHO) then it has certainly shaped your sexuality in _some_ way, for better or for worse. Again, no judgments, not saying anyone who looked at porn as a teen is fucked up or gross or can't have sex the right way or hates women or anything like that, I'm just saying it likely heavily shaped your sexuality as it exists today. And if you didn't consume a lot of porn, then whatever else you may have done likely shaped your sexual being. That's just the nature of the beast.


Not only are mens desires and sexual habits shaped by the pornography they watch, women are indirectly shaped as well. While still more men are suffering from porn-induced erectile dysfunction, their fetishes are growing more and more outlandish. I'm not sure I agree with the general consensus, that porn escalation necessary moves in the direction of more violent material. But it definitely does put a huge foot on the sexual selection accelerator. Women today have to compete with insane ideals. Huge breasts, being completely shaved... She has to perform and look like the porn stars that all men are used to seeing on screen. That has to create a lot of pressure.

Meanwhile, here's a good fashion-tip for the women reading this thread:


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

We should take pornography into context. Many people feel like masturbation is a release. Porn is a visual aid. I don't think people suddenly acquire fetishes on the internet, as commonly believed. I think they've had these fetishes all along and the internet provides an indulgence. If you look at the Victorian era, there was a lot of erotica. And among some of the stuff was what you would see in 4chan. There's been BDSM, incest, rape, pedophilia and apparently that was the tame stuff. You see, porn nuanced to certain "tastes" is nothing new.

As for the labeling of women who are porn stars "sluts" and "whores", it's really more a representation of society than pornography specifically. The only word we have for a woman who has lots of sex is a "slut" or a "whore". Men are similarly called "studs" or "jerks", although at least "stud" has a more positive connotation. Instead of making porn not use these words, I think time would be better constructed into removing the taboo on casual sex for women, and to some degree, men.

As for the body image issue, I think I agree on this one. First of all, porn stars are nothing to aspire to in terms of looks. I find most of them ugly, while I find most average girls attractive. I think the idealized body image is pushed by media, because there's profit to gain from it. Men really don't like the skinny stick figure, like women really don't like the giant muscular guy. But it sells products. It works, because the most common weight-related health problem in our Western society isn't starvation, it's obesity. Men have been affected to a degree by media in terms of how they find women, but you'll consistently find that women's ideal weight is much lower than men's ideal weight for women.

Call me crazy, but I think the availability of pornography has actually de-conditioned the male side of body weight issue to a degree. On the internet, you can find women with different types of body weight. Before, you probably had to settle for the average airbrushed model.

The sad thing, is you can't find any reliable studies about the issue, because everyone on the subject of anything porn-related has an agenda. There's just too much studies from both sides. Although, I would think that the anti-porn people probably like to focus on addiction, even though I would think most people who view porn aren't addicted.

Although porn can contribute to a lot of relationship problems (as with any sort of addiction), it's one of those things that we shouldn't make illegal. It's not going to keep the people who are addicted from looking at it. And, besides, that would make people taking naked pictures of their girlfriends or boyfriends and keeping those to themselves illegal. It's a private and personal issue if someone chooses to look at pornography. Seriously, what is with the law and getting in people's crotches?

The best thing to do would be to keep it legal and regulate it through bureaucracy. Define what is legal and illegal and let there be actual reputable pornography businesses.


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## DarkyNWO (Mar 21, 2011)

SenhorFrio said:


> It is hypociritcal, why doesn't anyone ever complain that femdom is degrading to men?


Cause it's only sexist when men do it.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

@Torai thanks for your contribution, but I really don't know how many times I have to keep saying I wasn't arguing for legislation against porn.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

DarkyNWO said:


> Cause it's only sexist when men do it.


Mainstream porn isn't femdom.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

strangestdude said:


> @Torai thanks for your contribution, but I really don't know how many times I have to keep saying I wasn't arguing for legislation against porn.


Sorry if I sounded misconstrued. I wasn't really talking to anyone specifically, I was mainly just expressing my views. Some people do argue for legislation against pornography, and the legislation argument was just to further clarify my viewpoint.


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## EyeEnEffPee (Apr 21, 2012)

Thanks for that educational video. The more evidence I'm exposed to the easier it becomes for me to stop watching that shit. When I take real objective look at my life It's hard not to admit that internet porn does have a negative impact on my sex life.


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

SenhorFrio said:


> Pornography isn't really "marketed" in the convetional sense, it can't be advertised in most form of media, both modern and tradtional. The only place you see in marketed is on other pornsites for the most part.
> 
> Most of the time pornography is free, sure you can pay to get the better quality stuff, but alot of the time people don't do so it doesn't really tingle my anti-capitalist senses.
> 
> ...


/Agree

My take on this issue

1- Avoid videos where women aren't enjoying the experience (easy to tell, at least for me). Bookmark videos where women are cumming out of their minds and fucking loving it. 

2- Some women enjoy spanking, choking, hair-pulling, and rough sex. I've dated a few girls who've demanded it. Don't try to force everyone to conform to your own sexuality. I don't bust down people's doors who do only missionary and give them shit. 

3- If I do it too much, I quit it for a week and go natural. If my penis is a little desensitized I loosen my grip. Little thing called self control. . . 

4- Liberals on a mission to force everyone to accept your values. Stop it.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

@_Btmangan_ Is your post isn't directed at me? If it is please read my replies to others to get further clarification on my perspective. 

Noone here is giving people crap who enjoy rough sex, we are talking about a mutli-billion dollar industry that's part of our media and influences our culture. Let's say someone hates romantic comedies, it doesn't mean they are against dating. Nor is someone against eating, because they propose there is a problem with mcdonalds.

I'm not liberal, Michael Shermer who is a libertarian expresses his concerns about mainstream pornography in the book the science of good and evil. You can dislike something without desiring legistation (I assume that's what you mean by force, because voicing an opinion isn't force), and there is nothing wrong with voicing an opinion. 

I think it's dangerous to not examine cutural trends - we've seen, and are experiencing the affects of not questioning the infinite growth paradigm of modern economics and consumerism.


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## Liontiger (Jun 2, 2009)

Personally, I prefer to watch gay male porn despite being a lesbian, and my girlfriend feels the same way. It's much easier to find videos where the participants look like they're genuinely enjoying themselves, instead of either over-exaggerating or being abused. I also appreciate that often times, both partners are allowed to orgasm. There are so many male/female vids that don't show any indication of the woman reaching climax. Instead, the sex often ends when the man pulls out and ejaculates, and the woman just seems so _elated_ to have him come all over her. Nevermind the fact that she never came. This is a general trend that I have seen and obviously not the only possible course of events, but I definitely think the main focus is men's pleasure. Which is why in gay porn, you tend to see more equality regardless of sexual position. 

I only watched the first few minutes of the video from the OP, and I skipped around a little bit after that. The most glaringly obvious issue I had with it was: he makes no mention of women who watch porn. I realize that porn is largely targeted at men and considered more socially acceptable for men. But there are plenty of women who watch porn, and these numbers have likely increased with the amount of porn available for free on the internet. I realize that porn will likely affect men and women in different ways, but to not study women is to miss out on a large piece of the overall picture.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Liontiger said:


> There are so many male/female vids that don't show any indication of the woman reaching climax. *Instead, the sex often ends when the man pulls out and ejaculates, and the woman just seems so elated to have him come all over her. Nevermind the fact that she never came. This is a general trend that I have seen and obviously not the only possible course of events, but I definitely think the main focus is men's pleasure. *


That's a very good point, and that's an incredibly common trend in mainstream porn. 

A question to the dudes here who watch Femdom; does the scene generally end after the male performer orgasms?


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## dalsgaard (Aug 14, 2010)

Liontiger said:


> Personally, I prefer to watch gay male porn despite being a lesbian, and my girlfriend feels the same way. It's much easier to find videos where the participants look like they're genuinely enjoying themselves, instead of either over-exaggerating or being abused. I also appreciate that often times, both partners are allowed to orgasm. There are so many male/female vids that don't show any indication of the woman reaching climax. Instead, the sex often ends when the man pulls out and ejaculates, and the woman just seems so _elated_ to have him come all over her. Nevermind the fact that she never came. This is a general trend that I have seen and obviously not the only possible course of events, but I definitely think the main focus is men's pleasure. Which is why in gay porn, you tend to see more equality regardless of sexual position.
> 
> I only watched the first few minutes of the video from the OP, and I skipped around a little bit after that. The most glaringly obvious issue I had with it was: he makes no mention of women who watch porn. I realize that porn is largely targeted at men and considered more socially acceptable for men. But there are plenty of women who watch porn, and these numbers have likely increased with the amount of porn available for free on the internet. I realize that porn will likely affect men and women in different ways, but to not study women is to miss out on a large piece of the overall picture.


Lack of sensitivity is one. If you masturbate a lot regardless of your gender, you're going to need more stimulation to reach climax. Female masturbation also seems to be more encouraged. When men masturbate it's seen as dirty and disgusting, but when women do it it's sexy.


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## dalsgaard (Aug 14, 2010)

strangestdude said:


> That's a very good point, and that's an incredibly common trend in mainstream porn.
> 
> A question to the dudes here who watch Femdom; does the scene generally end after the male performer orgasms?


A lot of the time, the scene continues. He'll get forced to lick it up, or maybe they'll continue the act in spite of it.

EDIT: Actually, feel free to ask me more about it. I've watched pretty much every type of femdom video there is, as this was one of my biggest fetishes.


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## Liontiger (Jun 2, 2009)

dalsgaard said:


> Lack of sensitivity is one. If you masturbate a lot regardless of your gender, you're going to need more stimulation to reach climax. Female masturbation also seems to be more encouraged. When men masturbate it's seen as dirty and disgusting, but when women do it it's sexy.


...I'm confused how this relates to what I said. Definitely feel free to explain, I'm just confused. As for my own masturbation habits, I might do it once a day during a busy week or not at all for a month. I'd say that's a moderate amount, and I haven't noticed any desensitization at all. Takes just as long as it always has. 

As for whether or not it's acceptable for women to masturbate, I think you should ask women that question. I can't tell you the number of women and girls I have met who can't even say the word masturbation seriously, fervently deny that they masturbate on the grounds that it's disgusting, or wouldn't even know how to masturbate if they tried! If you look into the media for whether it is acceptable for men and boys, you'll notice that masturbation is considered a normal practice. Sure, it might be shown for humor, but it's still there and it's visible. Even in my middle school health class, where I went to a school with all girls, we learned about how boys start to masturbate, but there was nothing similar for girls. I think this is the general experience in terms of health education. So I'm going to have to disagree with you in that regard. The only time it's acceptable for women to masturbate is in the context of sexual fantasies and the like. Someone hears that their mother or daughter masturbates? "Good lord, no! That's horrible. Why would you even suggest that?" 

But even more than that, as you said, "but when women do it it's sexy." Sexy to whom? It is implied here that women masturbate only for the viewing pleasure of their (presumably male) partner. When in fact, masturbation is often performed for one's personal pleasure alone. When you're getting off by yourself, you're not particularly concerned about whether you look sexy or not. I think what you were inadvertently getting at is that people don't generally want to _watch_ men get off, but they want to watch women. If a woman should masturbation for herself and no one else, then it is seen as dirty.


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## Antipseudonym (Mar 3, 2012)

It's not real.


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## dalsgaard (Aug 14, 2010)

Liontiger said:


> ...I'm confused how this relates to what I said. Definitely feel free to explain, I'm just confused.


I apologize. I just honed in on this sentence: "I realize that porn will likely affect men and women in different ways".



> As for my own masturbation habits, I might do it once a day during a busy week or not at all for a month. I'd say that's a moderate amount, and I haven't noticed any desensitization at all. Takes just as long as it always has.


I'm happy to hear that.



> As for whether or not it's acceptable for women to masturbate, I think you should ask women that question.


I have, and I was basically parroting her answer. I guess it differs a lot.



> I can't tell you the number of women and girls I have met who can't even say the word masturbation seriously, fervently deny that they masturbate on the grounds that it's disgusting, or wouldn't even know how to masturbate if they tried! If you look into the media for is acceptable for men and boys, you'll notice that masturbation is considered a normal practice.


Yes, I've always wondered why that is. 



> Sure, it might be shown for humor, but it's still there and it's visible. Even in my middle school health class, where I went to a school with all girls, we learned about how boys start to masturbate, but there was nothing similar for girls.


I can't imagine that at all. When I had sex education classes, we were told that both masturbate and that it's fine.



> I think this is the general experience in terms of health education.


I keep forgetting that Americans are a lot more hung up on sex then we are here in Denmark.....



> The only time it's acceptable for women to masturbate is in the context of sexual fantasies and the like. Someone hears that their mother or daughter masturbates? "Good lord, no! That's horrible. Why would you even suggest that?"


To be fair, they'd say the same thing about fathers and sons. Maybe we just don't like to think about it?



> But even more than that, as you said, "but when women do it it's sexy." Sexy to whom? It is implied here that women masturbate only for the viewing pleasure of their (presumably male) partner. When in fact, masturbation is often performed for one's personal pleasure alone.


I don't see how that's implied. Bottomline: If you are a woman who acknowledge the fact that you masturbate in a social context, then you're going to get applauded. It's sexy. But if you're a male and do the same thing, people will tend to be disgusted. A guy who wacks it off is seen as a loser. That's not so for women, not by a long shot.


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## Liontiger (Jun 2, 2009)

dalsgaard said:


> I keep forgetting that Americans are a lot more hung up on sex then we are here in Denmark.....


Ah. I've been operating under the assumption that we're both from America, which is probably an important distinction to make. There are bound to be cultural differences, as you've pointed out here.



dalsgaard said:


> I don't see how that's implied. Bottomline: If you are a woman who acknowledge the fact that you masturbate in a social context, then you're going to get applauded. It's sexy. But if you're a male and do the same thing, people will tend to be disgusted. A guy who wacks it off is seen as a loser. That's not so for women, not by a long shot.


I hadn't considered that, but you're right. Men who masturbate are viewed as doing so because they can't get women, or are losers. I think, then, that it's equally negative for men (for the reason you argued) and for women (for the reason I argued). When it comes to masturbation, you're kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't.


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## HarMlesS (Apr 23, 2012)

How does sitting in class with a boner help your concentration?


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

strangestdude said:


> That's a very good point, and that's an incredibly common trend in mainstream porn.
> 
> A question to the dudes here who watch Femdom; does the scene generally end after the male performer orgasms?


Not a direct answer to your question but I have to say the "what about femdom?" has to be the "why isn't there a WHITE entertainment television!?!" of pornography debates (not directed at you, I know you didn't bring it up), people really need to think about this sort of thing in context. 

Mainstream pornography of the type discussed in the OP = Women being subjected to degrading sexual treatment for the pleasure of male viewers.

Femdom pornography = Men being subjected to degrading sexual treatment for the pleasure of male viewers.

What do they have in common? They are both made primarily for men! The basic problems with femdom porn are the same as in other types discussed in this thread, the main differences are merely aesthetic. As has been discussed throughout the thread, some people see a concern with certain types of sex, specifically sex that is violent and at best ambiguously consensual, being normalized through cultural exposure via pornography. Femdom porn isn't comparable because there aren't millions and millions of women masturbating to femdom porn on a regular basis and conditioning themselves to be aroused by causing men pain and degradation, and even if there were, there's no overarching matriarchal culture to protect and normalize those desires. To echo what you and I have said throughout this thread, the issue is not any certain kind of sex but rather the huge amount of cultural capital held by the pornography industry, and femdom porn is just not really on the radar as far as that discussion goes.


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## JerseyDevil (Jul 18, 2010)

This is an intriguing topic for me for a few reasons. First of all, I've looked at/watched porn since I was able to get on the internet around the time I was 12 or so. I've also worked on porn websites before, having entered working in the industry through my ex-wife who runs over 100 websites, and have even had writing published in a low-budget porn magazine (a 'behind the scenes' piece on a movie she produced).

I do not think porn should be illegal, but I think it is an incredibly slippery slope. I no longer do any work involving porn, and I rarely watch it, and am about to further remove it from my life just to 'reset' myself as talked about in the Gary Wilson video.

I was basically about to bring up all the points Gary made before I watched the video. I'm glad I watched it since it just really re-affirmed what I had known through experience as well as knowing the direction the industry has gone in. Guys get hooked, and like with any addiction you need bigger, better, and more to continue feeling the same effects. To compare it to weed, after awhile you can no longer just get high on one or two hits. You need to start buying better stuff and smoking more of it to get high.

Besides that, you then start being dependent on sexual acts that simply aren't the norm. You don't start off looking at crazy niche/novelty stuff, but eventually simply watching a guy and girl go for 15 minutes until he shoots his load is not going to cut it - even skipping just to the money shot starts to not cut it unless there is another girl there to lick it all up off girl #1. Then you have to go even further. For the most part, that is simply not going to happen on a regular basis in real life, so you start getting frustrated and then need to turn stuff that used to be novelty into the norm.

I won't go so far as to say that just by watching porn, the lines of reality get blurred and suddenly things like rape become OK. I think a person who was already mentally ill and predisposed to raping women for whatever reason might get their fix or be further emboldened to try it by these types of porn, but for the general population I think it is just a matter of guys needing something harder to get off to. With only very, VERY few exceptions, I think most people do not become rapists solely because of watching porn.

I don't really care about the 'exploitation' of women in the industry itself because, from the viewpoint I had actually working in the industry, that is just bull. The girls are treated great off camera. Even the no-name ones aren't treated 'poorly' even if they don't get the VIP treatment that the stars do. Yes, there are scumbag managers who rip the girls off or producers who are jerks and try to not pay - there are always exceptions.

Generally speaking though, the talent is treated well and they wouldn't do these scenes if they were uncomfortable with them (and there are many behind-the-scenes examples of girls stopping when the roughness of the scene was too much for them). Also, most of these girls who are really popular and doing the really hardcore pain/domination/humiliation types of porn are nymphomaniacs themselves and they enjoy it. I've never heard of a popular porn star who didn't really enjoy her work - this is because you can tell if they are enjoying it or not in the filming, and no one becomes a hit with the fans if they look bored or miserable. Moreover, on some of the most hardcore types, they even do a short interview at the end with the girl where she talks about what she liked about it and shows that she was a happy willing participant.

As far as just general violence being brought into sex because of porn, I think it might be more popular to do now as people become more sexually liberated, but I don't think there is anything wrong with it nor do I think today's porn is the cause of it. We have tons of soccer moms talking about exploring whips and bondage because of "Fifty Shades of Gray" as opposed to some hardcore website (in fact I listened to two women in our group, one in her 30s, and one in her 50s, talking about it together while on vacation as a good way to spice things up in the bedroom), so saying porn is the culprit to blame really isn't fair in my opinion. For most of the population, men still enjoy a dominant role and female enjoy a submissive one...

...before I continue, please spare me that I'm some male pig. "Masculine/dominant" and "feminine/submissive" roles aren't just defined by society alone, they are biologically built into most of us. Yes, I'm sure both men and women will read this and it won't apply to them, but you aren't the majority and there isn't anything wrong with the majority just because you don't fit the stereotypical roles. I'm not trying to be sexually oppressive towards women, and more power to you if you are a woman and like to be the dominant one or just a neutral partner. Whatever works for you is great.

Anyway, as I was saying, most of the population still has these gender roles that they enjoy, and there is always going to be a bit of kinkiness revolving around those roles. I know perfectly normal people who enjoy either slapping, lightly choking, or spanking, and similarly being on the receiving end of those things too. And now as mentioned above you have middle-aged women going above and beyond that into the territory of being bound and forced/used as a turn on. Yes, there is violence to it, but I think this kind of stuff was around long before today's porn because sex is inherently an animalistic act. After all, a little bit of choking or spanking is really just the next step after really rough/fast normal sex.

Because of this, I don't fully agree that porn sets a standard for how men are treating women, both in and out of the bedroom. To suggest that men objectified or used women only recently because porn came around seems asinine to me. Men were pigs long before porn. I'm not saying it is necessarily right, I'm saying porn isn't the culprit, and I think any effect where men are 'rougher' in the bedroom because of today's porn is negligible. Besides, a lot of women seem to be on board with this kind of roughness when Oprah is talking about these BDSM books on TV anyway.

In summary, I think pinning everything on porn or proclaiming it to be evil is wrong, just as much as saying it is perfectly fine and nothing bad ever happens is wrong too. Each issue surrounding porn should all be looked at independently, whether it is the effect it has on most 20-something men, to how well the women are treated by the industry, or even to blurring the lines between fantasy and reality.


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## ilphithra (Jun 22, 2010)

Is it just me that took a look at several types of porn and after a couple of each type went like: _"hmm... seen 1, seen them all"_ and just decided to toss the whole thing as uninteresting?


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## metalme (Jan 5, 2012)

Darth Nihilus said:


> I like violent and abusive pornography. I love porno where the woman abuses the fuck out of the guy. More towards the psychological end, but I certainly like to see slapping, spanking, hitting, pinching, biting, burning with cigarettes, etc. My favorites are wives sleeping with another man, while verbally degrading the fuck out of the husband and forcing him to "clean up" afterward. This comes from real life sexual experience. If I could find a woman willing to dominate me in these ways, in real life, I'd be in fucking heaven. Sadly, it's not yet happened. All of the women I've been with, have wanted to be dominated. I do find it odd, that I'm actually disturbed by pornography, that depicts violence and degradation towards women, when I love porn, that depicts all these things towards men. I'll admit there's some sort of conditioning at hand, there. I've had a few partners, who openly expressed being displeased with my inability to pull their hair, bite them, and slap their ass hard enough. It's very hard to be a submissive, masochistic male.


Why does anyone need to be degraded during sex? It's not a healthy turn on... what happened to making love?

Ever experienced that?

Not saying it's wrong if you haven't , just genuinely curious.


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## Master Mind (Aug 15, 2011)

JerseyDevil said:


> "Masculine/dominant" and "feminine/submissive" roles aren't just defined by society alone, they are biologically built into most of us. Yes, I'm sure both men and women will read this and it won't apply to them, but you aren't the majority and there isn't anything wrong with the majority just because you don't fit the stereotypical roles.


Yet, conversely, the majority has no problem with impressing upon the minority that there _is_ something wrong with *them* because they don't fit stereotypical roles. I've always found it funny how that works. And that's not confined to this particular topic, but is true in general.


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## JackParrish (May 5, 2012)

The dark side of porn is not what most think it is. It is the implications of what it means that we even have it in the first place. 

Pornography exists, at least in it's current ubiquitous form, mostly because sexuality is so undervalued and underrepresented in our current society. It goes back to the early western roots that the body is temporal, the soul is eternal, and therefore anything associated with the body is evil and should be hated. Early church fathers even castrated themselves to keep earthly desires at bay (one example is Origen). In America we also had a strong puritanical foundation that believe that even if married spouses enjoyed their sex together they were disobeying God. Over time this morphed and changed, but the foundations are there.

It also, by the way, led to the fear and hatred of the female body that still undercuts a lot of our modern society. Even the most vile words in the english vocabulary generally reference female genitalia. 

So in our daily course of life--watching media, working out, going to the beach, looking at/creating art, etc--we have this huge division still between body parts and sex (lower forms of human behavior) and everything else (higher forms). What should be a regular part of life and add richness and flavor is bottled up and kept in a state of prohibition. This not only removes it from daily life, but it makes it forbidden fruit. 

So instead of sex adding color to every part of life in a balanced way, we get this poor substitute which is only about the friction of body parts. Cultures that integrated sexuality more fully tended to have very little pornography, and instead had rich erotica. But when sexuality and bodies are hidden, we get these spikes in pornography which are more objectified and friction oriented. Most of the emotional, literary, and cultural flavor has been removed. 

Is porn better than nothing at all? Sure, if not at cost and harm to others. Sexuality is important. But the "dark side" is that it exists at all in our culture. I would much rather a more fully integrated culture that values sexuality in an integrated way and for prohibition to end.


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## CrabbyPaws (Mar 5, 2012)

I personally find that area of porn rather arousing. Mainly because the videos are mirroring my original fantasies, not because I am being brain-washed into liking those sort of things. I realise it is just acting and because I've personally explored a lot with my boyfriend, I know things can look worse than they are. However I don't linger for long as I do have a real sexual-relationship, but I always find myself coming back to it every now and then for some solitary inspiration. I didn't know there was such a thing as 'quitting porn'. I don't think I could ever do that, even if I was not aroused by it, my curiosity does always get the better of me. Then again I don't think I ever made that much of a connection to it.


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## Mutatio NOmenis (Jun 22, 2009)

Oh dear God, not this bullshit again...


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## Nackle1 (Apr 26, 2012)

Ironically "The Dark Side of Porn" sounds like it could be the name of an inter-racial porno flick lol.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Mutatio NOmenis said:


> Oh dear God, not this bullshit again...


Please read my thread before posting in it. Somebody already posted that link, and the post apologized after I explained and showed that none of the points in the Pen and Teller vid apply to my OP. Please re-read the OP, I never called for legislation against porn.


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## DemonD (Jun 12, 2012)

I can see the point of OP. I have quite recently found the site x-art, which suits me much better than the slightly insane regular stuff. x-art I find has a much better view on women and their treatment. Though it is still porn, so I'm sure many won't like that either.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

DemonD said:


> I can see the point of OP. I have quite recently found the site x-art, which suits me much better than the slightly insane regular stuff. x-art I find has a much better view on women and their treatment. Though it is still porn, so I'm sure many won't like that either.


Though I'm off porn, for personal reasons... That site was like watching a dream.


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## Temur (Jun 14, 2012)

The dark side of sexual repression....


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## Noumenon (Jun 23, 2012)

I generally agree with the position of the OP, however I think that in many ways porn also normalise certain sexual acts and in doing so liberates a general public. I am specifically referring to anal sex and cunnalingus. There was a period wear it was seen as emasculating to go down on a woman, the fashion of cunnalingus in porn has changed the perception for the better. Also I am not convinced by the pro feminist position (please not I identify as a feminist) that equates anal sex with misogyny. Anal sex is the only sexual act that can be experienced by both genders - if anything anal sex is an equaliser. Further more no one complains about conspicuous anal sex in gay porn. I am yet to read a journal that stats "gay porn actively encourages young men to degrade themselves with anal sex", its considered normal and if your not homophonic its consider a form of healthy sexual bonding.

Over all the concerns about porn in general are valid, but we would be blind to just completely right of porn as a totally negative influence.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Temur said:


> The dark side of sexual repression....


Huh?


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

It's been a few months since I made this thread, and after the last post I hadn't thought much about the cultural influence of porn. But I've been thinking alot about it recently due to some business opportunity that has been presented to me (nothing like money to make you reexamine your perspective). I now have a more 'balanced' view of porn as an industry. I don't think it's inherently negative or positive - like most industries - but trends within the industry can be negative or positive IMO.

But I don't think that the understanding that porn can be as addictive as alchohol or gambling is acknowledged in our culuture, and I think that is what has been bothering me. When I wrote the OP I was too influenced by frequenting the no fap group on reddit, and a porn addict forum - it has a sub-culture (i'm exagerrating of course) where people think that everyone is destined to become addicted to porn, or masturbate excessively. When the reality is that the majority will enjoy porn and masturbation in moderation, just like I drink and smoke occassionally but I've never become addicted due to consciously moderating my consumption.

And one of the positives that I have seen and experienced like @Noumenon points out is that it leads to experimentation and the acceptance of expressions of sexuality that were previously seen as 'wrong'. Largely due to reflecting my porn tastes I've come to realize that I'm pansexual.

Thanks for the contributions everybody, and special thanks to @JerseyDevil (for his insider perspective - PM inbound). I think it's always important to critique trends in society. And I think it's healthy to discuss trends in porn from time to time - like trends in hollywood - because media influences society.

Regarding current trends; from what I've seen there seems to be increasing trends in porn towards amateur/quasi-amateur porn, and webcams. And I was surprised to discover that the incredibly popular 'world's best pornsite' that I referred to in a previous post has shelved their 'simulated rape' sub-site - for unknown reasons, but I take that as a good sign.


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

Darth Nihilus said:


> I like violent and abusive pornography. I love porno where the woman abuses the fuck out of the guy. More towards the psychological end, but I certainly like to see slapping, spanking, hitting, pinching, biting, burning with cigarettes, etc. My favorites are wives sleeping with another man, while verbally degrading the fuck out of the husband and forcing him to "clean up" afterward. This comes from real life sexual experience. If I could find a woman willing to dominate me in these ways, in real life, I'd be in fucking heaven. Sadly, it's not yet happened. All of the women I've been with, have wanted to be dominated. I do find it odd, that I'm actually disturbed by pornography, that depicts violence and degradation towards women, when I love porn, that depicts all these things towards men. I'll admit there's some sort of conditioning at hand, there. I've had a few partners, who openly expressed being displeased with my inability to pull their hair, bite them, and slap their ass hard enough. It's very hard to be a submissive, masochistic male.


Try the Folsom Street Fair, in Cali. It is an adult fair that caters to alternative lifestyles. You get to see lots of bondage, S and M apparatus and also of course cards and numbers of professional Doms. Many males do desire this type of treatment and there are professionals that cater to it.


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