# How to tell Fi from Ti?



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Peter said:


> You are still confused. :smile:
> 
> The first 4 functions tell someone is an INFJ. The second 4 functions are the dark side of the force. When you´re in destress that's the personality that appears. Basically it means changing the first and the last letter of your type. So your dark side is a bad ENFP.
> 
> But that doesn't mean that Fi is an important function in your type and your personality. It is not. Unless you are in a negative depressed mood most of the time. But under normal conditions, Fi means nothing to an INFJ. An INFJ's Fe is way too important. An INFJ's interest in change the moods of other people (the way they feel they should be feeling) goes above any kind of personal moral an INFJ may have. They don't have too many personal morals anyway. They do have morals of course, but nothing that is true just for themselves. Their morals apply to people, not to an Fi type of right vs wrong.


Hey cheers, should have clarified - I am in a negative/depressed mood at the moment and have been for the last month or so.

I've read up on Fi being a "critical parent" role for INFJs and how that would affect them, it makes sense for me.
I also read that stellamaze article I linked and that made sense to me too.

I think everyone has morals that are true just for themselves.

Hey while you're here - how would you imagine an INFJ to appear, when they're not satisfying their Fe?
Stuck in an Ni-Ti loop.

That article I linked to goes into precisely that and it says that's basically how Fi begins to creep in and it nails a load of what's going on in my head.


I'm also thinking INFJs are very logical, I think I am anyway, and will likely mistype as thinkers a fair bit.
The way you describe T in post #14 isn't me at all. Yet on tests, I'll pick the logical (to me) answers and depending on how a question is phrased, this might give me INTJ.

In normal every day life, outside of the last month or so.. no I'm not nearly as critical of myself, I'm actually usually full of confidence which fits with Fi being a 'critical parent' role.

This thread sorta sums up how I feel about myself, about everything, lately:
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...feel-like-a-total-hack-live-on-stage.1829221/

Don't have to read the whole thing just the first post.
I feel that way about everything. Work. Homelife. Being a parent. Being a guitarist. 
Feel like the worst friend because I've barely been seeing my mates lately.
Too stuck trying to earn money and dig us out of a hole (lost my job earlier in the year and fell behind on bills, got a new job now, but, it's an uphill battle trying to catch up on everything and it's getting me down).

I'm not usually like that.


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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

silver lining said:


> I LOVE how you've said this. I'm a dominant Fi user and didn't quite understand it myself. I thought I was too logical and ''cold'' to even be a feeler, but i always do what i believe is right. I'm usually the one to give people objective advice, solutions to problems etc, sometimes I have to stop myself with that and just be an emotional support which I find harder because I see it as useless most of the time (I value efficiency, improvement, problem solving...). An ENTJ before he got to know me a little better thought I was very similar to him :'D
> @MusiCago described exactly how i sometimes feel about Ti. My best friend is an ENTP and I really do think he goes too deep into things. I don't see a point in that, although I love the thought process. It's just not efficient in my opinion, it delves too much into the theory of things and frequently postpones any action. However, because of the depth it goes into, it's usually a lot less judgemental than Fi and more objective.


Cheers.. but don't take my word as gospel, if anything this thread is exposing how little I know about all of this.
I'm picking it up as I go, I've read a few books on it now.. but yeah.

There's some far far far more knowledgeable people on it here than me and some of my interpretations of the functions aren't as accurate as I seem to think they are, yet.


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## silver lining (Sep 8, 2016)

I've read it all, haven't seen anything I haven't heard before, it's just *so* good when I see someone not underestimating Fi. A lot of people have wrong perception about it and INFPs in general. As much as i like typology, it gives some people reason to judge others/assume they are unable to do something and some to give excuses to themselves as well as others (ex. I can't be a leader because I'm an INFP, you are insensitive to other people's feelings because you're an ENTJ so it's fine).


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## Mr Castelo (May 28, 2017)

Turi said:


> In normal every day life, outside of the last month or so.. no I'm not nearly as critical of myself, I'm actually usually full of confidence which fits with Fi being a 'critical parent' role.
> 
> This thread sorta sums up how I feel about myself, about everything, lately:
> https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...feel-like-a-total-hack-live-on-stage.1829221/
> ...


It seems that you're suffering from Imposter Syndrome, it's pretty common, especially when you feel under pressure in life to meet everyone's expectations of you. I think you should try to relax more, maybe try reaching out to your friends/loved ones even if you feel like you don't have the time to, maybe open up to them about how you feel. You may need to become more aware that you're not alone in life and put more worth on yourself. I'm sounding preachy here and I'm still just a kid, but that's what I would try to do if I were in your situation.


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## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

Turi said:


> Hey cheers, should have clarified - I am in a negative/depressed mood at the moment and have been for the last month or so.
> 
> I've read up on Fi being a "critical parent" role for INFJs and how that would affect them, it makes sense for me.
> I also read that stellamaze article I linked and that made sense to me too.
> ...


Your dark side Fi isn't really good Fi. It's Fi in a bad way. It looks like Fi but I can't imagine it "feeling" like Fi because you can't really feel any function. Functions don't feel they process information and the result of that information processing you become aware of, can be through a feeling or simply as awareness or knowledge. When you are feeling troubled and your dark side type shows up, in INFJ case that's an ENFP, it doesn't mean you´re like a normal ENFP.

So you may think Fi is in your system, but what you´re really are experiencing is depression or something similar. Fi seems negative to you, but it isn't a negative thing. And don't say it seems like a positive thing to you because if one of your main functions is Fe, Fi does not make sense to you. It goes against everything you consider "normal".


But you can still be an INFJ,... I would suggest however to find the confirmation of that through Ni and Fe and not through negative mood experiences. That's not the right way to go about it.


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## Errant (Sep 7, 2014)

Ti: How does it work?
Fi: What is it worth?

Ti measures the logical consistency between parts, Fi measures the moral integrity of a whole.


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## MusiCago (Jan 3, 2017)

Peter said:


> You are still confused. :smile:
> 
> The first 4 functions tell someone is an INFJ. The second 4 functions are the dark side of the force. When you´re in destress that's the personality that appears. Basically it means changing the first and the last letter of your type. So your dark side is a bad ENFP.
> 
> But that doesn't mean that Fi is an important function in your type and your personality. It is not. Unless you are in a negative depressed mood most of the time. But under normal conditions, Fi means nothing to an INFJ. An INFJ's Fe is way too important. An INFJ's interest in change the moods of other people (the way they feel they should be feeling) goes above any kind of personal moral an INFJ may have. They don't have too many personal morals anyway. They do have morals of course, but nothing that is true just for themselves. Their morals apply to people, not to an Fi type of right vs wrong.


I beg to differ. Yes Fi does show under times of distress, but it is actually stronger than Fe in the INFJ. However, it is unconscious so the INFJ consciously chooses to "wield" Fe, and tries to consciously suppress Fi. However, becauss Fi is indeed stronger than Fe in the INFJ, their facial expressions kind-of "spill" what their subconsciously feeling, even when their conscious words/actions say otherwise. When an INFJ is burned out, they get tired of Fe and then retreat into the Ni-Ti loop and then eventually into Fi.

Sources: 
http://personalitycafe.com/infj-forum-protectors/877042-strong-6th-function-introverts-fi-infj.html

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ipNez-r5QKA

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WPMhQz-Ln8s


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## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

MusiCago said:


> I beg to differ. Yes Fi does show under times of distress, but it is actually stronger than Fe in the INFJ. However, it is unconscious so the INFJ consciously chooses to "wield" Fe, and tries to consciously suppress Fi. However, becauss Fi is indeed stronger than Fe in the INFJ, their facial expressions kind-of "spill" what their subconsciously feeling, even when their conscious words/actions say otherwise. When an INFJ is burned out, they get tired of Fe and then retreat into the Ni-Ti loop and then eventually into Fi.
> 
> Sources:
> http://personalitycafe.com/infj-forum-protectors/877042-strong-6th-function-introverts-fi-infj.html
> ...


Nice theories, but it makes no sense that Fi is stronger than Fe in an INFJ.

That's not the MBTI anymore. That's a totally different personality theory that just uses terms of the MBTI.


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## MusiCago (Jan 3, 2017)

Peter said:


> Nice theories, but it makes no sense that Fi is stronger than Fe in an INFJ.
> 
> That's not the MBTI anymore. That's a totally different personality theory that just uses terms of the MBTI.


That's because mbti is stupid and has been proven wrong. Stick to original Jung psychology and Socionics  and correction, this theory doesn't use MBTI terms, MBTI is using Jung terms and distorting them. MBTI comes from a Jung copycat who knew nothing about psychology.

Also, Fe _is_ stronger than Fi on a conscious level, but subconsciously Fi over-rides Fe in INFJs, research it and look at the links I gave, they're very informing.


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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Peter said:


> Your dark side Fi isn't really good Fi. It's Fi in a bad way. It looks like Fi but I can't imagine it "feeling" like Fi because you can't really feel any function. Functions don't feel they process information and the result of that information processing you become aware of, can be through a feeling or simply as awareness or knowledge. When you are feeling troubled and your dark side type shows up, in INFJ case that's an ENFP, it doesn't mean you´re like a normal ENFP.
> 
> So you may think Fi is in your system, but what you´re really are experiencing is depression or something similar. Fi seems negative to you, but it isn't a negative thing. And don't say it seems like a positive thing to you because if one of your main functions is Fe, Fi does not make sense to you. It goes against everything you consider "normal".
> 
> ...



I understand what you're saying, I also relate to how the links above describe Fi in an INFJ.

I had this weird thought earlier, that the feelings I'm feeling atm (they're going away atm, been consciously doing some Fe things, like helping out a mate move house, helping out people at work today, just generally being more useful yesterday and today, and I'm feeling better.. doesn't make the money trouble disappear but it'll be better to sort that in a healthier state of mind..)... anyway, I thought, the feelings I feel, what I described in that link I linked you to about me feeling like a hack guitarist.. is this Fe?

Can Fe manifest backwards, into a negative fashion, when an INFJ is feeling down.

Because that's kinda how it feels. When I read it all it's like.. I'm feeling shit because I feel like.. I'm not as good as the punters at pubs etc deserve, I feel like a hack on guitar because I feel like they deserve better.

I feel like I'm a bad worker because I'm not getting the results the company expects (and what I legit want to give them), I feel like a bad friend because I'm not getting out and seeing my mates - letting them down.


This weird thought popped in my head that maybe what I'm thinking is Fi in myself is actually like.. bad Fe.
It all stems from feeling like I'm failing other people, anyway. Like my family, work, audience, etc etc.. it's not about me, so much, as it is about them.

That failure makes _me _feel like a total hack.


I don't know, I might be off, but it just popped in my head and I thought oh sheeet that makes sense.


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## MusiCago (Jan 3, 2017)

Turi said:


> I understand what you're saying, I also relate to how the links above describe Fi in an INFJ.
> 
> I had this weird thought earlier, that the feelings I'm feeling atm (they're going away atm, been consciously doing some Fe things, like helping out a mate move house, helping out people at work today, just generally being more useful yesterday and today, and I'm feeling better.. doesn't make the money trouble disappear but it'll be better to sort that in a healthier state of mind..)... anyway, I thought, the feelings I feel, what I described in that link I linked you to about me feeling like a hack guitarist.. is this Fe?
> 
> ...


Well there are two versions of Fe/Fi from what I've read. One version is that emotions have nothing to do with the cognitive functions and Fe vs Fi is about what is ethically and morally right. 
The other version is where Fe and Fi have everything to do with emotions, and Fe is about others' emotions While Fi is about your own emotions. So whatever your feeling, good or bad, all has to do with Fi (whether conscious or unconscious); others believe your emotions are just emotions and have nothing to do with Fe/Fi. It's really up to you to decide.


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## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

Turi said:


> I understand what you're saying, I also relate to how the links above describe Fi in an INFJ.
> 
> I had this weird thought earlier, that the feelings I'm feeling atm (they're going away atm, been consciously doing some Fe things, like helping out a mate move house, helping out people at work today, just generally being more useful yesterday and today, and I'm feeling better.. doesn't make the money trouble disappear but it'll be better to sort that in a healthier state of mind..)... anyway, I thought, the feelings I feel, what I described in that link I linked you to about me feeling like a hack guitarist.. is this Fe?
> 
> ...


I read that guitarist story and I understand what you mean. And with this post I now understand why you think this is Fi.

And that amazes me!

You think that Fi is about what you feel about yourself. But that's not what Fi is about. Fi is about morals and ethics that are based on internal rules. Things you've learned during your life become rules and they are very rigid rules. This is one of the differences between Fi and Fe. Fe is considering the circumstances, the situation and applies it's morals and ethics to that. Fi has it's morals and ethics, and regardless of the situation, will apply them.

(if you remember some MBTI questions like: Justice or Mercy,...... Fi prefers Justice, Fe prefers Mercy.)


So you feeling bad because you believe you´re not doing what you should be doing, regardless of whether that is true or not, is the result of your Fe. You´re not living up to what you normally believe is your duty. Your Fe tells you you should be doing a lot of stuff while you believe what you´re doing is not enough, not even close to enough.

Now, why you believe you´re not doing enough, that's another question. A question to which you have to find the answer yourself. (though it seems like you already answered that question in your post.)

This is not an Fi thing at all. It's just Fe that doesn't get to express itself enough. Not doing Fe does not mean doing Fi.


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## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

MusiCago said:


> That's because mbti is stupid and has been proven wrong. Stick to original Jung psychology and Socionics  and correction, this theory doesn't use MBTI terms, MBTI is using Jung terms and distorting them. MBTI comes from a Jung copycat who knew nothing about psychology.
> 
> Also, Fe _is_ stronger than Fi on a conscious level, but subconsciously Fi over-rides Fe in INFJs, research it and look at the links I gave, they're very informing.


Alright, you do have a point there. But I don't agree with these theories that go against the MBTI because the MBTI "has been proven wrong". That's just nonsense. The MBTI is a framework, a choice to order the functions in a certain way.

Now Jung may not agree with the MBTI, or maybe he does, I don't know. But Fe and Fi both active at the same time, just like Ne and Ni, or any other combination like that,... that's just nonsense.


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## frigus (Oct 4, 2015)

To put it in (perhaps overly) simplified terms:

*Is this right or wrong?*
Fi - checks within itself
Fe - checks outside itself

*Is this correct or incorrect?*
Ti - checks within itself
Te - checks outside itself


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## MusiCago (Jan 3, 2017)

Peter said:


> Alright, you do have a point there. But I don't agree with these theories that go against the MBTI because the MBTI "has been proven wrong". That's just nonsense. The MBTI is a framework, a choice to order the functions in a certain way.
> 
> Now Jung may not agree with the MBTI, or maybe he does, I don't know. But Fe and Fi both active at the same time, just like Ne and Ni, or any other combination like that,... that's just nonsense.


You're completely ignoring any evidence I've shown to you in defense that it's all "nonsense". I mean I respect your opinion, but don't try to pass it off as fact if you dont have anything to back it up..

https://www.google.com/amp/thoughtc...e-myers-briggs-test-is-absolute-nonsense/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ps...201402/the-truth-about-myers-briggs-types?amp


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## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

MusiCago said:


> You're completely ignoring any evidence I've shown to you in defense that it's all "nonsense". I mean I respect your opinion, but don't try to pass it off as fact if you dont have anything to back it up..
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/thoughtc...e-myers-briggs-test-is-absolute-nonsense/amp/
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ps...201402/the-truth-about-myers-briggs-types?amp


Your proof is that the MBTI is no good. But that doesn't mean that Fe and Fi can then be active together in one person. That still is nonsense.

I don't care if you disagree with the MBTI. It doesn't predict job performance. And so doesn't every other type of test. The only thing that predicts job performance is the job itself and previous experience in a similar job.

The MBTI should be taken for what it is. Not for what you want a personality theory to be.

Jung's definition of Fe: "Extraverted feeling (Fe) is the feeling function that is primarily concerned with connection and commonality to others."

Jung's definition of Fi: "Introverted feeling (Fi) is the feeling function that is primarily concerned with authenticity, personal values and individuality."

Please explain how you can be concerned with connection and comonality to others AND with authenticity, personal values and individuality.... both at the same time? Or perhaps not at the same time, but sometimes Fe and sometimes Fi. It doesn't make sense because you'll be constantly going against the preferences of the other function. WHile in Fe mode, you will have to break your Fi preferences and while in Fi mode you will have to break your Fe preferences. These 2 simply don't go together.

It seems logical if you ask me, because Jung noticed there is a difference between projecting things inwardly and outwardly and if you're doing both than as a result you're not doing anything.

That said, ofcourse you can and even have to do project inward and outward,....... there has to be input and output. But not from the same function. (maybe Meyers and Briggs understood Jung's functions a lot better than most people that disagree with them.)


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## The red spirit (Sep 29, 2015)

Peter said:


> Your proof is that the MBTI is no good. But that doesn't mean that Fe and Fi can then be active together in one person. That still is nonsense.
> 
> I don't care if you disagree with the MBTI. It doesn't predict job performance. And so doesn't every other type of test. The only thing that predicts job performance is the job itself and previous experience in a similar job.
> 
> ...


and what happens if Fi user values making individual connections with others and his values are to make those happy? Seems like Fi+Fe combo.


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## MusiCago (Jan 3, 2017)

Peter said:


> Your proof is that the MBTI is no good. But that doesn't mean that Fe and Fi can then be active together in one person. That still is nonsense.
> 
> I don't care if you disagree with the MBTI. It doesn't predict job performance. And so doesn't every other type of test. The only thing that predicts job performance is the job itself and previous experience in a similar job.
> 
> ...


My proof is MBTI is no good, _and_ that is the reason why I don't like it; which is why I stick to Jung Psychology and Socionics!

Also, I never said Fe + Fi can/cannot be active together at the same time, that is irrelevant to my point. My point is that INFJs have a stronger Fi than Fe, but because it is all in the *unconscious* psyche, Fe is *consciously* chosen over Fi, however in some cases this does not work and therefore is the reason why INFJs get caught up in Fi.

I will repeat myself for the _third_ time, check my sources from my first reply to you. It talks about Fi in INFJs, the strong 6th function in all introverts. and INFJs vs ENFJs (specifically Fi and Fe in those types.)

Your defense to this given information was that it is nonsense and it has nothing to do with MBTI; I prove to you that MBTI is nonsense, and you still ignore what I've presented to you and pass it off as useless.

At this point it's clear there's no point in reasoning with you, and like I said, I respect your opinion. _However_, the moment you want to pass it off as fact is where I will say "hey, you're wrong and this is the reason why." Thus far you have provided 0 evidence to support your reasoning as to why the theory I've shown to you is nonsense, and any logic you've presented diverges from the real argument. I'm sorry if I offend you or anything, that is not my intention. My intention is to educate you about the 6th function in introverts and how it works, and that you shouldn't stick to MBTI because it is utterly useless. MBTI hardly even goes into cognitive functions let alone into the conscious and subconscious personality, as well as how each function reacts depending on the subjective user. Socionics covers all of this, and Jung psychology was the creator of these functions. So, if anyone's allowed to really say that two functions couldn't be used at the same time (this part is irrelevant to my main point), it would be Jung only (unless you can prove to me otherwise.)


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## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

The red spirit said:


> and what happens if Fi user values making individual connections with others and his values are to make those happy? Seems like Fi+Fe combo.


Well, I'm an Fi user in third position. My main 2 functions are Ni and Te and the last function is Se ofcourse. So no Fe at all. But I also value making individual connections with others, From your point of view I'm using Fe for that..... But I don't. It's hard to understand for Fe people I guess, but Te, dominant or Auxiliary,... we don't make individual connections with others for the same reason as Fe dominant / auxiliary people do. The point is: We do make these connections but we value them completely different than Fe does.

So just because someone does make individual connections with others, does not mean that's Fe at work.




You see,.. Te makes connections with others because he wants to accomplish some goal....... which is,.... exactly the same thing as Fe does. The difference is the motivation. Fe motivation is different from Te, but the process is pretty much the same.


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## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

MusiCago said:


> My proof is MBTI is no good, _and_ that is the reason why I don't like it; which is why I stick to Jung Psychology and Socionics!
> 
> Also, I never said Fe + Fi can/cannot be active together at the same time, that is irrelevant to my point. My point is that INFJs have a stronger Fi than Fe, but because it is all in the *unconscious* psyche, Fe is *consciously* chosen over Fi, however in some cases this does not work and therefore is the reason why INFJs get caught up in Fi.
> 
> ...


How Each Cognitive Function Manifests Based On Its Position In Your Stacking | Thought Catalog

This may help.

for example: Fe in second position (INFJ): "I will analyze the information that is available to me and then see how I can use it to achieve interpersonal peace."

That can be confused for Fi if you want to believe it's Fi.

You see, the usual description of Fe is: "I will make those around me feel comfortable and happy in a cohesive manner, by identifying what we are all mutually striving for."
But this is actually just Fe in the dominant position.


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