# Help please for a lost EII or IEI?



## apophenia (Sep 17, 2012)

Hello there. 









My name is Jaidyn and I am pretty new to all of this. I have been only casually familiar with the MBTI version of typology from Kiersey's PUM II. In that system I am an INFP. But I recently learned about Socionics and cognitive functions. I have taken some cognitive function tests (whatever that may be worth) and I consistently come up as an INFJ. I then decided to completely dismiss the tests and actually READ all the types and it sounds to me like INFJ fits me the most. 

Now in coming to socionics, I did take some tests, and I come up with either EII or IEI. Finally I just read all the descriptions of the types and functions on Wikisocion and other locations. In doing so, I come to EII as the most fitting type for me. However I am not sure if there is any thing to this whole J/P switch thing. If so, I suppose the IEI would be the cognitive function equivalent, but the descriptions just don't seem to mesh. 

That all being said, I really have no clue to most anything else here. I am having a difficult time finding things to really help me grasp all of this. I *hope* to basically set aside any of the little I have learned from the MBTI side of things and basically start from scratch with Socionics if possible. I think the MBTI info is just confusing me in the long run.

Is there anyone who would be willing to give me some advice or guidance on this issue? I would really feel better if I was more confident in my type.

I found Wikisocion and that is helpful but is there anything I can download like a pdf book by chance or something a beginner like me could really start with that's in English? Regrettably I think I just got lucky with the little I have found as my internet searching skills are not very good regrettably.

Anyhow, thank you all for your time and I am looking forward to a lot of good information and awesome people to meet here.


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## Navi (Jul 8, 2012)

@Boolean11 , time for you to get in here.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

Navi said:


> @_Boolean11_ , time for you to get in here.


I'm still learning my self and still trying to truly make sense of the difference closely analysing the cognitive functions, I'm like a total "P" as socionics says. 
@Jaidyn
In you are certain that you understand the cognitive functions then it makes sense that you correlate perfectly as a socionics INFj. It shares the same cognitive functions as MBTI INFP. A short story to note MBTI actually ruined their lettering system when their decided to not flip the judger perceiver dichotomy by choosing to associate introverts with their axillary function. Jung had really said otherwise which is why he so it as important to associate the type with lead function, socionics just made the logical decision to follow suit plus it makes sense since a person's lead function is their primary mode of thought. 

Because you likely have lead "Fi" if you've typed your self correctly, it truly means that you are a judger first since when you start to create your understanding, you start with a set criteria for classification. I on the other hand, lead "Ni", start by just taking in formation "perceiving" irrespective of whether it can meet classification (judgement) or not; as an actual perceiver I take in more information than I process. Hopefully that wasn't confusing but the bottom line with *socionics and MBTI is usually the judgement functions flip for introverts when translating between the two systems, if you've been typed correctly.*


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## soya (Jun 29, 2010)

I like your av, @Jaidyn.


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## apophenia (Sep 17, 2012)

soya said:


> I like your av, @_Jaidyn_.


Thank you very much.  That means a lot to me.


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## apophenia (Sep 17, 2012)

Boolean11 said:


> I'm still learning my self and still trying to truly make sense of the difference closely analysing the cognitive functions, I'm like a total "P" as socionics says.
> @_Jaidyn_
> In you are certain that you understand the cognitive functions then it makes sense that you correlate perfectly as a socionics INFj. It shares the same cognitive functions as MBTI INFP. A short story to note MBTI actually ruined their lettering system when their decided to not flip the judger perceiver dichotomy by choosing to associate introverts with their axillary function. Jung had really said otherwise which is why he so it as important to associate the type with lead function, socionics just made the logical decision to follow suit plus it makes sense since a person's lead function is their primary mode of thought.
> 
> Because you likely have lead "Fi" if you've typed your self correctly, it truly means that you are a judger first since when you start to create your understanding, you start with a set criteria for classification. I on the other hand, lead "Ni", start by just taking in formation "perceiving" irrespective of whether it can meet classification (judgement) or not; as an actual perceiver I take in more information than I process. Hopefully that wasn't confusing but the bottom line with *socionics and MBTI is usually the judgement functions flip for introverts when translating between the two systems, if you've been typed correctly.*


Thank you for all the great information.  I did do some more looking, and I am certain I am an EII in socionics. Admittedly I am still confused about my MBTI score though. Like I said, cognitive-wise, I SEEM to be an INFJ in the MBTI system... I think. But doing standard dichotomy tests, I am an INFP and that seems to make the most sense if I am an EII and the judgement function does indeed need to flip for introverts.


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## soya (Jun 29, 2010)

Jaidyn said:


> Thank you very much.  That means a lot to me.


Oh, and welcome. I think you'll fit in on these forums. There's a large range of people here (admittedly many of us are INxx personality types, though. hehe).


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## itsme45 (Jun 8, 2012)

Jaidyn said:


> Thank you for all the great information.  I did do some more looking, and I am certain I am an EII in socionics. Admittedly I am still confused about my MBTI score though. Like I said, cognitive-wise, I SEEM to be an INFJ in the MBTI system... I think. But doing standard dichotomy tests, I am an INFP and that seems to make the most sense if I am an EII and the judgement function does indeed need to flip for introverts.


So you are saying you are Ni+Fe in MBTI and INFP in dichotomy tests, that is, a P... then that should be Ni+Fe INFp in Socionics system too. Yet you are really identifying with INFj in that system so that goes to show this issue is not as simple as that.


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

Jaidyn said:


> Thank you for all the great information.  I did do some more looking, and I am certain I am an EII in socionics. Admittedly I am still confused about my MBTI score though. Like I said, cognitive-wise, I SEEM to be an INFJ in the MBTI system... I think. But doing standard dichotomy tests, I am an INFP and that seems to make the most sense if I am an EII and the judgement function does indeed need to flip for introverts.


I would expect EII to resemble MBTI's INFP most closely.
EII is Fi dominant and Ne creative
INFP is Fi dominant and Ne auxiliary


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## esq (Jun 7, 2012)

Tell me about Jaidyn. Who is Jaidyn? And why is Jaidyn an EII? 

We might as well start from scratch like you said. 

Give me your soul, Jaidyn, I'll type you here and now.


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## apophenia (Sep 17, 2012)

esq said:


> Tell me about Jaidyn. Who is Jaidyn?


Who is Jaidyn... Well I am 33yrs of age with two sons. I am epileptic so I am a stay-at-home parent. However I have always been fascinated with psychology. One of my dreams has always been to be a councilor. People have a tendency to come to me to talk and ask for advice ever since I was 17 and in high school.

I am a complete bibliophile, and is my obsession just after sex. I am very flirtatious and sincere in my flirtations but oddly enough I always am suspect when people do the same. I have a low self-image. I mean I suppose I am not unattractive but I am really not happy with how I look. Admittedly a large part of that is my gender-identity but that I don't think is important at the moment.  I am very laid back with many things in life... I mean I worry a lot... I do. But I always attempt to stay calm, just relax and figure things out because there is no point in stressing. All it does is make people and myself panic when I could just be doing what I can to resolve whatever issue there is to be dealt with. Panic only makes me freeze up.

I also love religious studies and philosophy. If I had to peg my beliefs, I would say I am a healthy mix of Taoism (pronounced "Dow-ism"), Buddhism and I often blend in the joke(?) religion of Discordianism. It just makes me happy when people gives me that "WTF?" expression. I "think" I am pretty open minded and love to study metaphysics, astrology (just for theory, I don't actually USE it), conspiracy-theories, and my most recent love of what is called "E-Prime". A manner of speech that eliminates all forms of the verb "to be" in order to help avoid contradiction and aid in clarity. Normally I would type all this in E-Prime to demonstrate what I mean, but I assume most people are not interested in that... PLUS it is not how I normally talk anyhow and would give you a false impression of my personality. 

As far as my people skills are concerned, I prefer to be in smaller groups of people socially, however I can handle large groups ok as long as I am among the crowd. If I get the spot light, I really don't do well. I stammer and stutter and almost panic. I mean I can handle it if I have to, but if I have the choice, I would rather be in the background.

I often tell people that if I ever started a group or cause for whatever, I would want to be privately the one running things, but publicly, almost a non-entity. I don't want or like a lot of attention.

Oh, I mentioned a love for sex. I am not saying that like I am always going from person to person. I actually am in a relationship but my partner and I are polyamorous. We both can be with who we want as long as there is complete honesty, communication, trust and safety. We really don't get jealous of each other and pretty much take things in stride when it comes to that subject. We are very sexually open and not shy in the least when it comes to the subject. We are tactful about it and respect those who do not want to talk about it or shy. However it is an aspect we are proud of.  

Now I am sure there is much more you may want to know to help you figure me out. If so, please feel free to ask whatever you like, no question is off-limits or too personal. However I am going to assume you likely have me pegged. I am open to hear what you think. And if I am wrong about the types I think I am/may be... I am not too stubborn to take your ideas into consideration.

Oh, and if it helps, in the Enneagram system, I am a 9w1 sx/so. If that means nothing or doesn't interest you, then no worries. 
<3


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## apophenia (Sep 17, 2012)

itsme45 said:


> So you are saying you are Ni+Fe in MBTI and INFP in dichotomy tests, that is, a P... then that should be Ni+Fe INFp in Socionics system too. Yet you are really identifying with INFj in that system so that goes to show this issue is not as simple as that.


Yeah, chances are I am still in the dark as to being an EII or IEI. Hell, I could be something else entirely. It is tricky. Since I first heard of socionics, I have taken all the tests I could find (in english) AND read the descriptions of each. By descriptions with functions, I narrowed it down to those two. Going by the tests, I get:

Sociotype: EII
Extended Socioptype: IEE
Mizami: IEE with (in order) EIE, IEI and EII
Hugo: IEI, EII
Socionictest.net: (In order) ISFP (SEI) - 310, INFP(IEI) - 255, INFJ (EII) - 250
DeLong: EII
Socionics XL: IEI
Sociotypograph: IEI

Using those results plus just the descriptions, I came to the conclusions I did.


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## apophenia (Sep 17, 2012)

Oh and for anyone trying to figure out my type if you are... I wanted to add something else. I often think of myself as an optimist believing that in most things, everything will be good and fine in the end. However when it comes to humanity in general, my optimism takes a back seat to realism bordering on pessimism. I genuinely want the best for all people. But at the same time I have the feeling of "I love people but dislike humanity" if that makes sense. Sometimes I feel almost misanthropic but not quite at that point yet. I care about people so much but I feel like other people don't care about others. So I feel kind of resigned about the whole issue. Hope that has helped some.


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## esq (Jun 7, 2012)

What are your traits that indicate one type or another? And the traits that confuse you? And any definitions that are too unclear?

Do you relate to J vs P at all? 

And definitely an introvert?


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## apophenia (Sep 17, 2012)

esq said:


> What are your traits that indicate one type or another? And the traits that confuse you? And any definitions that are too unclear?
> 
> Do you relate to J vs P at all?
> 
> And definitely an introvert?


Going by the MBTI understanding, I was always under the impression I was more P than J.

As far as being an introvert, I prefer to be either alone or in a small group at the most, however I can be extremely social and I get along with others very well. It really is varied. I have always thought I was an introvert. But again with the standard MBTI dichotomy tests, I am always scoring 56/43. So I suppose it is possible I am more extroverted than I thought.

Going with the meanings that I find on Wikisocion.org, my main issues are Ni-Fe vs Fi-Ne. I see so much of me in both sets but I am having trouble being objective. Perhaps I am "wanting" to see myself in one or more but I really don't know. Or I am not seeing everything that really is there. The definitions I don't think are causing any issues.

The meaning just for the Base and Creative functions that I am referencing are below with the bold lines being what I easily identify with.

Ne for the EII
*The individual likes to apply his insight to specific situations, relating them to the bigger picture. He also enjoys discussing idealized circumstances or what could be rather than what is*. Consequently, he usually has high standards, even unreasonably so, for those around him.
*He does not pursue ideas or new opportunities merely for their own sake, but for their application to specific questions and issues that he feels are important.*


Fi for the EII
The individual sees reality primarily through static personal ethics and stable interpersonal bonds between individuals, including himself, where the status of such interpersonal bonds is determined by his personal ethics. The individual is very confident in evaluating the ethical or moral qualities, and their consistency, of other people. This makes the individual seem "judgemental" or "self-righteous" to people less so inclined. If he has difficulty in deciding the status of a personal relationship, he will take action to try to reach a conclusion but if that continues to elude him, he will regard the relationship as not worth it. His own sense of constancy in personal ethics and in his relationships with others is a very strong factor in his sense of self-worth.
Fi in this position implies the ability to almost instantly recognize whether someone is a friend or an enemy, whether they are demonstrating good will or ill will, and whether they are drawn to or repelled by the individual.


---------------------------
Fe for the IEI
*The person is sensitive to the emotional atmosphere around him, either from an individual, or a group, or even from inanimate objects such as the landscape, the state of the physical environment he happens to be in, or his own emotional associations with the place or people around him.* *A positive emotional atmophere is essential for his sense of well being and inner peace, and he either tries to promote it himself by directly influencing it around him, or by simply moving away from the environment or the people causing a negative emotional environment in his view.*
For the SEI, this takes an on-the-spot aspect and is reflected in cracking jokes, trying to make people laugh, or simply moving away from people he perceives as affecting him negatively. For the IEI, this takes a longer-term perspective; so *the focus, rather than being on the immediate emotional environment, is on the perceived longer-term emotional state of others towards the individual, and is reflected in trying to be on good terms with those he interacts with or seeking distance or protection from, or "preventively" attacking, those he sees as irremediably hostile emotionally.*


Ni for the IEI
generally manifests itself through a lack of direct attention to the world around oneself, and a sense of detachment or freedom from worldly affairs. This can lead to a highly developed imagination and very unique mental world, but it can also result in *a great deal of laziness and apparent inactivity*. *Because the individual gets his or her primary information about the world through imagination, a person with base Ni may be able to thrive in situations where data are scarce, or where he or she lacks the usual prerequisite experience. However, this may also become a disadvantage if the person ignores real data about the world too much.* The ability to transcend the axis of time and understand the cause and effect relationships that occur is also a feature, sometimes resulting in the ability to accurately predict general future trends and outcomes of certain events.


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## apophenia (Sep 17, 2012)

Concerning P vs J or Rational vs Irrational I will try to be more specific. Again using Wikisocion placing everything that applies in bold:


Rationals
(Also called shizotymes in early socionics literature)
Tend to plan ahead, make decisions early.
Are more often rigid and stubborn.
Do not like to change their decisions.
Tend to finish what they started.
Usually have stiff movements.
Usually more 'authoritarian' leadership style.
Low stress tolerance.


Irrationals
(Also called cyclotymes in early socionics literature)
*Tend to wait and see, more spontaneous.*
*Are more often flexible and tolerant.*
*Change their decisions frequently.*
*Tend to start new things without finishing them.*
*Usually have gentle movements.*
*Usually more 'democratic' leadership style.*
*High stress tolerance.
*
Yeah, I really don't relate to the rationals at all from what I can tell. And normally I would just rule out the EII on that alone but all the other things that are causing me to doubt keep coming up which I mentioned in my OP. Namely that in MBTI dichotomy tests, I come out as an INFP. With cognitive function tests, I come out as INFJ. If there is a necessary J/P switch for introverts and I am an IEI, that translates to INFJ in MBTI. But the dichotomy tests are HEAVILY weighted towards me being a P which would put me as an EII. Even though they are cognitive tests and not socionics, would it help for me to post my results from those other tests?


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## esq (Jun 7, 2012)

Logically, you really ought to be an IEI with Ni, Fe, just from your story of how you've typed yourself: 

- You are a P on all dichotomy tests. 
- You are Ni, Fe on all cognitive functions tests. 

In MBTI, JP determines your extroverted function. I*N*F*P* gets Ne. 
In Socionics, JP determines your first function and it takes on your IE. IEI (*IN*F*p*) gets Ni. 

Common wisdom tells introverts to flip their JP. This actually only applies if:
1) You tried to type yourself by cognitive functions. 
2) You've decided to ignore JP dichotomy tests. 
3) You are introverted and intuitive. (Because Se and Si definitions are completely different between Socionics and MBTI, this applies only situationally to sensors.) 

We are of the opinion that MBTI's dichotomy tests and cognitive functions tests do not correlate. 
If you've tested P on an MBTI dichotomy test, you ought to be a P in Socionics. 
If you've tested Ni, Fe in MBTI, you ought to be Ni, Fe in Socionics. 

It might be some hidden truth about MBTI that half of the INFXs are confused as fuck about their type. Your situation might be typical.

Does this seem like a likely explanation or just an unintelligible one?

Of course, I still feel like I don't know enough about your brain to have typed you as a blank slate. I might ask more questions later. Feel free to post concerns and autobiographies.


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## apophenia (Sep 17, 2012)

esq said:


> Logically, you really ought to be an IEI with Ni, Fe, just from your story of how you've typed yourself:
> 
> - You are a P on all dichotomy tests.
> - You are Ni, Fe on all cognitive functions tests.
> ...


I actually am going to go with all of what you said, because it not only makes sense... although I was not aware of the bolded information, but because of some other reading and research I have done as well. Your information merely solidified my own reading I have done in the last hour.

What I did based on your earlier question of J vs P was I looked and decided that I was an irrational type as mentioned earler. I then went through all 4 of the quadras, put in bold everything that applied to me (attempting to be as objective as possible), concluded that the Alphas and Betas was most like me thereby automatically eliminating EII. However based on earlier testing, that left a couple others as possibilities. I right away discounted anything with a L result as in dichotomy and cognitive tests, that is just not something that registers high in any way.

Once that was determined, I looked at the IP/EP temperaments as only IP/EP are Alphas and Betas and sought out which temperament was most like me. I concluded the IP fit me best as the EP were L based. The resulting possibilities were SEI and IEI which fit the results from my Socionictest.net result and the Basic Socionic test.

I then looked at the "clubs" and seeing my only options were Humanitarians or Social, I found the Humanitarians were by and far the only one that really fit me leaving IEI as the only option remaining. Add into the information you just provided and in all the various tests I have done, 
IEI: 4 times out of 9,
EII: 2 out of nine 
EIE: 2 out of 9 and
SEI: 1 out of 9.

I am happy and assured that I am properly an IEI (INFp)/MBTI: INFJ. Thank you for all your very helpful assistance. <3


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## itsme45 (Jun 8, 2012)

Jaidyn said:


> The meaning just for the Base and Creative functions that I am referencing are below with the bold lines being what I easily identify with.


Did you just forget to bold anything in Fi-base description? Or do you really not relate to anything in it at all? 

You didn't really bold Ni-base in IEI.

Did you check Fi-creative in IEE?

Now of course these are just crappy descriptions anyway...




Jaidyn said:


> Once that was determined, I looked at the IP/EP temperaments as only IP/EP are Alphas and Betas and sought out which temperament was most like me. I concluded the IP fit me best as the EP were L based.


If you don't care about L (Logic, right?), does IP or EP fit you better?


All in all, have you ever considered IEE?


I am not saying you are IEE or not IEI or anything, I just thought IEE was something that was not eliminated in a logical way here except that you come up as Ni+Fe in MBTI Ni/Fe function tests, of course.


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## apophenia (Sep 17, 2012)

itsme45 said:


> Did you just forget to bold anything in Fi-base description? Or do you really not relate to anything in it at all?
> 
> You didn't really bold Ni-base in IEI.
> 
> ...


Actually looking back, as far as the Fi description goes, I didn't really relate to it. The Ni function I related to but apparently the bold didn't take. 

Ni for the IEI
generally manifests itself through a lack of direct attention to the world around oneself, and *a sense of detachment or freedom from worldly affairs*. This can lead to a highly developed imagination and very unique mental world, but it can also result in *a great deal of laziness and apparent inactivity. Because the individual gets his or her primary information about the world through imagination, a person with base Ni may be able to thrive in situations where data are scarce, or where he or she lacks the usual prerequisite experience. However, this may also become a disadvantage if the person ignores real data about the world too much. *

Everything else in the description of the IEI functions I could see in myself. To be fair, I had only left the Fi in there because I was going with the understanding that if I was an IEI or EII, my Fi or Ni would be the base. Plus even though on the dichotomy tests, the E/I is pretty close, on those, the cognitive tests and the majority of socionic tests suggest an introverted base function. Admittedly a lot of the IEE description does sound like me, but just as much sounds NOTHING like me.

That and going with my process of elimination regarding the rationals/irrationals, quadras, temperaments and clubs, it just came to IEI as the final result. I intentionally avoided types with the L for Logic as those scores have always been low for me. Plus the descriptions of the Deltas, the EP, the rationals and the Pragmatists further just had nothing I related to. 

Mind you, I am open to the possibility I am wrong. But add in to all the above the cognitive functions being as they are... IEI just made the most sense to me.


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## itsme45 (Jun 8, 2012)

Jaidyn said:


> Actually looking back, as far as the Fi description goes, I didn't really relate to it. The Ni function I related to but apparently the bold didn't take.


Aww, alright, then what I said is all moot. 

Also, then why not remove the EII from your signature? I guess you forgot to update it


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## apophenia (Sep 17, 2012)

itsme45 said:


> Aww, alright, then what I said is all moot.
> 
> Also, then why not remove the EII from your signature? I guess you forgot to update it


No worries. I appreciate the help in finding my appropriate type. Thank you for taking the interest. <3

And yes, I did forget. Thank ya! :-D


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## itsme45 (Jun 8, 2012)

Jaidyn said:


> No worries. I appreciate the help in finding my appropriate type. Thank you for taking the interest. <3
> 
> And yes, I did forget. Thank ya! :-D


Haha no worries  Hey you look like a cute dual you know? =P 

(Though that's just a joke... I'm not sold on duality theory)


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## apophenia (Sep 17, 2012)

itsme45 said:


> Haha no worries  Hey you look like a cute dual you know? =P
> 
> (Though that's just a joke... I'm not sold on duality theory)


All the same, I appreciate the compliment. :happy: I have no opinion one way or another on duality theory as I am still learning about everything else. However now I know someone to keep in mind. :wink: <3


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## Twoshoe (Mar 2, 2011)

If it helps you any, I'm pretty sure I'm both MBTI INFP and socionics INFp (based off both the descriptions and the socionics functions).


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## apophenia (Sep 17, 2012)

Twoshoe said:


> If it helps you any, I'm pretty sure I'm both MBTI INFP and socionics INFp (based off both the descriptions and the socionics functions).


I am glad you brought that up actually. I have heard various reasons why an INFP can be an INFp and just as many as to why it can't work. Playing devil's advocate if I may, how is that possible to be an INFp and INFP if the base functions are different? Ni-Fe vs Fi-Ne? Not saying you can't be as such but just curious how that would work. Are the functions between MBTI and Socionics that different?


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## itsme45 (Jun 8, 2012)

Jaidyn said:


> All the same, I appreciate the compliment. :happy: I have no opinion one way or another on duality theory as I am still learning about everything else. However now I know someone to keep in mind. :wink: <3


Hehe 




Jaidyn said:


> I am glad you brought that up actually. I have heard various reasons why an INFP can be an INFp and just as many as to why it can't work. Playing devil's advocate if I may, how is that possible to be an INFp and INFP if the base functions are different? Ni-Fe vs Fi-Ne? Not saying you can't be as such but just curious how that would work. Are the functions between MBTI and Socionics that different?


Yeah, they are not the exact same operational definitions so if you go by that, it's possible to have different types. @_Twoshoe_ could you describe your example of how you identify with one set here and the other set there?


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