# INTX ... (two complete opposites), or anything else?



## bionic (Mar 29, 2010)

Describe your thought process as if you've never known about the cognitive functions.


----------



## caramel_choctop (Sep 20, 2010)

listentothemountains said:


> My thought process normally goes like this: I don't understand (this/why this is the case/why I am feeling this way) and then I start thinking about it and bringing up connections and further internal analysis to see if I can figure out what the truth is.
> 
> We have huge math problems to do, and I don't remember how to do them in detail, but rather just the overall idea. Instead, I learn how to derive the system and I tend to do the entire question by scratch on the second or third try.
> 
> ...


All that quoted text screams Ni to me. I have an INTJ friend (online) who said once that she didn't want specifics or minute details of something explained to her, only the general concept. I know that's not good evidence, and I can't give further examples - you'll have to read up on Ni - but all that you wrote is Ni rather than Ti. That's what Ni does, that's how it operates.

Ti absolutely _thrives_ on detail. It loves to lay out every infinestimal detail, which to a non-Ti user would seem excruciating. 
But to an INTP or ENTP it's perfectly logical. Not sure now where I saw it, but a user on a forum posted that when they wrote an email or something explaining their thoughts, they rambled on not because they saw it as unnecessary information but because, on the contrary, they wanted the person reading to see how everything was connected and how each point logically flowed from the previous one.

Sigh. Not a very good explanation, sorry: I can't find the original post.  That'd work better than my sitting here and trying to paraphrase and making a butchery of it.


----------



## slyspy (May 18, 2011)

caramel_choctop said:


> All that quoted text screams Ni to me. I have an INTJ friend (online) who said once that she didn't want specifics or minute details of something explained to her, only the general concept. I know that's not good evidence, and I can't give further examples - you'll have to read up on Ni - but all that you wrote is Ni rather than Ti. That's what Ni does, that's how it operates.
> 
> Ti absolutely _thrives_ on detail. It loves to lay out every infinestimal detail, which to a non-Ti user would seem excruciating.
> But to an INTP or ENTP it's perfectly logical. Not sure now where I saw it, but a user on a forum posted that when they wrote an email or something explaining their thoughts, they rambled on not because they saw it as unnecessary information but because, on the contrary, they wanted the person reading to see how everything was connected and how each point logically flowed from the previous one.
> ...


To put it simply, those with Ne want all the information, including all the little details, before making a decision while Ni just wants the general concept.


----------



## caramel_choctop (Sep 20, 2010)

slyspy said:


> To put it simply, those with Ne want all the information, including all the little details, before making a decision while Ni just wants the general concept.


Oh, that's Ne?  My bad, I thought Ti.
But anyway, they work in conjunction with each other.

EDIT: Oh, wait, Ti filters all that info that Ti receives. Nm, I get it now.


----------



## luemb (Dec 21, 2010)

bionic said:


> Describe your thought process as if you've never known about the cognitive functions.


Good advice. I remember doing this, but perhaps I didn't post it.


----------



## luemb (Dec 21, 2010)

slyspy said:


> I can tell where you are using Ni but not Te. How much do you relate to extroverted thinking?


Extroverted thinking is definitely my weak point. I have been best friends with an INFP for about 7 years, so my Fi is probably more developed than my Te. I do use Te though, but I've been suppressing it, except when trying to explain things to other people.


----------



## slyspy (May 18, 2011)

listentothemountains said:


> Extroverted thinking is definitely my weak point. I have been best friends with an INFP for about 7 years, so my Fi is probably more developed than my Te. I do use Te though, but I've been suppressing it, except when trying to explain things to other people.


I think that's why it is so difficult to type you. I'm guessing your Fe is even less developed than your Te otherwise I would suggest INFJ. Though if you have Fi than you have Te.....though INTPs usually report having a well developed Fi....this is really confusing. I'm sure you will figure it out.


----------



## luemb (Dec 21, 2010)

slyspy said:


> I think that's why it is so difficult to type you. I'm guessing your Fe is even less developed than your Te otherwise I would suggest INFJ. Though if you have Fi than you have Te.....though INTPs usually report having a well developed Fi....this is really confusing. I'm sure you will figure it out.


My apologies... once again I miscommunicated. I mean that, compared to the "normal" INTJ profile, I don't express a lot of extroverted thinking. However, in real life, I think I use extroverted thinking, as shown by my enjoyment of organizing and explaining things to other people. However, my Fi is probably stronger than my Te.


----------



## slyspy (May 18, 2011)

listentothemountains said:


> My apologies... once again I miscommunicated. I mean that, compared to the "normal" INTJ profile, I don't express a lot of extroverted thinking. However, in real life, I think I use extroverted thinking, as shown by my enjoyment of organizing and explaining things to other people. However, my Fi is probably stronger than my Te.


Well then I would suppose you would be an INTJ.


----------



## luemb (Dec 21, 2010)

ok. A little bit about how I think without using MBTI descriptions. (the word intuition doesn't count, I've known about intuition for a long time.)

When thinking about things, I often manage to confuse myself. Sometimes it feels like I live in one of those infinite mirror rooms, where every argument has a counter argument. I want to make sure I am making the right choice, so I try to be sure I consider every possible angle and counter-angle to my arguments. Infinity is fascinating. When dealing with other people, I always try to see things from their perspective, including their objectives, their present state of mind, and their amount of knowledge. When dealing with concrete problems I am much happier, and I am especially happy when it is something that I can visualize and refer back to that visual understanding of the problem as I am working through it. I love problem-solving. I am able to work through it linearly in order, although my mind is jumping all over the place and might be 10 steps ahead, or questioning something I did 10 steps previously. I don't remember the details of the problem, or what numbers I had for an answer, although I remember vaguely the type of problem, or the layout of the page. 

I have an example of something I was trying to remember earlier today. I was studying for an exam about a month ago, and I had a question that I asked my teacher. Now I cannot remember what the details of the question were, although I remember what type of question it was about, and that the question itself was about a detail in the theory that I needed to use. I also remember trying to work through the question myself and getting stuck and realizing that I was missing a vital piece of information. If I go look at the page, I will be able to remember everything. Right now I cannot. Then, after he filled in that one piece of information, I was able to solve the rest of the problem myself. 

Some things about how I learn.
- I learn best if I can work through a problem on my own. 
- I am often distracted, with multiple threads running in my head at the same time (it actually works best this way.)
- I take notes on whatever details I think I might forget between now and the exam, but in the meantime I am building up an intuitive model in my head that incorporates whatever ideas we are learning.
- Organizing my thoughts with other people or for other people helps me learn it myself. 
- I always ask "what does this really represent" and until I have something to go along with the math or the process, the math means nothing. I wish I could say that the math, in and of itself, made sense to me, but rather the math makes sense because it represents something, and I know how that something works, so I can figure out how the math must work, and re-derive it if I forget it. 

I am often focused on whatever idea I have before me, sometimes say an idealization of the way government should work, or what a democracy is, or how a computer program should work overall, and I compare the way things really are to the way these ideas/idealizations say they should be. 

With concrete things, like experiments, or, say, building a popsicle bridge, I have a visual of how it should be, and then watching it play out in real life with imperfections was/is a bit disheartening. I've since learned that it is possible to be very close to perfect, but there will always be imperfections, and that bothers me.

EDIT
Also I love challenge. It can be frustrating if it is something way above my skill level, but then I really want to learn it. In the mean-time, if it is something that I can do, but I've never done anything like it before, then I am so game for it. Or if someone wants to race me on a math problem, I will take you up on it so fast. Also, I keep long-standing friendly challenges with people over who can get the best marks. I don't care about winning, (and will never crow about it, except in teasing) but the fun is in the game. 

Also, I should touch on my sense of humour. It is mainly based on when my vision of the way things normally are is conflicted with the way things appear to be. (I don't think that differentiates INTP vs INTJ though )

EDIT: Thanks again everyone for your input, I really appreciate it. Most everything I have added in this post is information that I don't know how to classify, but is definitely me. Hopefully it is easier classified by someone else.


----------



## Sherbet Lemon (Sep 16, 2011)

listentothemountains said:


> When thinking about things, I often manage to confuse myself. Sometimes it feels like I live in one of those infinite mirror rooms, where every argument has a counter argument. I want to make sure I am making the right choice, so I try to be sure I consider every possible angle and counter-angle to my arguments. Infinity is fascinating. When dealing with other people, I always try to see things from their perspective, including their objectives, their present state of mind, and their amount of knowledge.


Ok this is the problem with typing you. Before it sounded like you were using Ni but now you sound more Ti Ne. I think you are more of an INTP whose Ti Ne comes across as Ni. When you talk about trying to see different angles, infinity, and counter-arguments that sounds Ne. 



listentothemountains said:


> When dealing with concrete problems I am much happier, and I am especially happy when it is something that I can visualize and refer back to that visual understanding of the problem as I am working through it.


.....and then it just got more confusing. What exactly do you mean by concrete problems?



listentothemountains said:


> I love problem-solving. I am able to work through it linearly in order, although my mind is jumping all over the place and might be 10 steps ahead, or questioning something I did 10 steps previously. I don't remember the details of the problem, or what numbers I had for an answer, although I remember vaguely the type of problem, or the layout of the page.
> 
> I have an example of something I was trying to remember earlier today. I was studying for an exam about a month ago, and I had a question that I asked my teacher. Now I cannot remember what the details of the question were, although I remember what type of question it was about, and that the question itself was about a detail in the theory that I needed to use. I also remember trying to work through the question myself and getting stuck and realizing that I was missing a vital piece of information. If I go look at the page, I will be able to remember everything. Right now I cannot. Then, after he filled in that one piece of information, I was able to solve the rest of the problem myself. Some things about how I learn.
> - I learn best if I can work through a problem on my own.
> ...


I relate a lot to this. I don't know if that means something or not.



listentothemountains said:


> With concrete things, like experiments, or, say, building a popsicle bridge, I have a visual of how it should be, and then watching it play out in real life with imperfections was/is a bit disheartening. I've since learned that it is possible to be very close to perfect, but there will always be imperfections, and that bothers me.


I'm pretty sure this is introverted judging.

I'm gonna say that you use Ne instead of Ni and you are confusing Ni with Ti. Personally, I think you are an INTP.
I know the cognitive tests are not always accurate but have you taken one before?......what are usually your results? I just relate so much to what you are saying that if you are an INTJ than I think I might be one too lol.


----------



## luemb (Dec 21, 2010)

Sherbet Lemon said:


> What exactly do you mean by concrete problems?


I had a description, and then forgot. Hang on. By concrete I mean things that are physical and real-world as opposed to social or metaphorical or ethics based. While I can visualize both, real-world is testable, whereas with social constructs I step back and say "Wait, I might be completely wrong." and then the infinity thing takes over. With my schooling (I'm in engineering school) the questions are physical and grounded in the physical world. I'm pretty confident the physical world is a certain way, and that Newton's laws apply, so I don't have to worry about being completely wrong, or another perspective being equally valid. 



> I know the cognitive tests are not always accurate but have you taken one before?......what are usually your results?


In the past it was Ti - Ne - Ni - Te and then some mix of the rest when I thought I was an INTP and so answered questions to make it work out that way. (" yeah I'm an INTP so I must do this" sort of thought process.) Now, some of the questions, especially the Ti ones, don't make any sense to me. Recently I read a quote that your main function should be the one that makes the most sense to you, the one that you understand. I've never understood Ti, and always assumed that it was because, as my main function, I was so used to using it that I never knew how to compare it to other functions. My sister is an INFJ and has Ti moments. Today she was commenting on how multiple choice questions where the "correct" answer is "none of the above" can be incorrect if the question is worded in a certain way. I mean, I know that, but I also know that that isn't what the test writer really meant, so it didn't bother me. That's the way I think. I always go with an assumption about what is really meant, rather than the exact logical correctness of the statement. Things bother me when there are multiple possible correct assumptions about what could be meant without any clue as to what is right, or when people say things that are contradictory to what I think they really meant (and weren't aware that what they said didn't match). 

So yeah, either Ni, or a very closely-connected Ti-Ne system. According to Occam's Razor, I should go with the first.


----------



## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

who's to say that its impossible to have an "even" interplay between between each type of function (intro/extroversion)? who's to say that its impossible to have a well developed function that should be in your shadow set of functions for that matter? who's to say the mbti is an "end-all-be-all" to the "genetic makeup" of someone's personality--and by that i mean it may be a good model on which to learn how an "average" person works, but it doesn't disprove that your particular brain isn't causing you to grow in a certain way, or, that you were introduced into an environment that used what your potental strengths were to produce "you", and that what your special skills are, don't necessarily match up with the aforementioned model...? 

think about people who are closer to the middle on certain letters--for example, my T/F and P/J are closer to the middle than my I/E and N/S (much, in comparison). and after reading certain examples or definitions of the functions that i was interested in, i identify with Fi and Ti (i also recognize Te, which i would, seeing how it's a modified version of something that i deal with on a constant basis--not to mention that our society demands a certain level of it anyhow)--i see them both as tools that can help me, i.e., use them when it's appropriate. as far as Ni and Ei, the main difference i can see between the two is that Ni is independent of stimuli, whereas Ne needs it, regardless of the fact that the stimuli can originate within the mind itself (plus, the general approach of the two start on almost opposite sides; ending v.s. search, leading to search v.s. ending). but, if you are highly intuitive you may have learned to exercise both methods.


----------



## Timo (Aug 4, 2011)

Your initial post was just screaming of INTP for me, but as I read through all the thread it got more confusing.




listentothemountains said:


> 2) What do you yearn for in life? Why?
> I really just want to be confident in myself right now, because I want to have a solid base so that I can learn new things. In life, I want to learn everything I can about everything.


As far as I understand, self-confidence should come naturally to INTJs, and sometimes they even have too much of it. At the same time many INTPs seem to have lack of confidence. At least I feel I do, sometimes. Can any INTJs relate to wanting to be confident? I thought that they normally just are confident without thinking about it. For me your answer to 2) is actually quite INTP, ESPECIALLY the understanding everything about everything part, very INTP in my eyes. I can relate very much to your answer to this question, I feel the same way about myself. 



listentothemountains said:


> 3) Think about a time where you felt like you were at your finest. Tell us what made you feel that way.
> When I am solving a problem that I had no idea how to solve before, and then the answers just kept showing up, and I knew how to keep moving forward with it.


That looks kind of like Ni, but then again not necessarily. It's like that for me sometimes.. I work on something hard, get stuck.. go to sleep, and wake up with fresh ideas. This answer doesn't necessarily favour either of the types.



listentothemountains said:


> 4) What makes you feel inferior?
> The feeling that my intelligence may be fake. Actually, that is what scares me. I feel inferior when... wait, I don't think I ever have. I might feel inferior when talking to someone who is smarter than me.


I feel inferiour when someone is more competent than me, especially when he just learns things faster than me and with ease and is creative in the process, while I just struggle. Not sure if that answer indicates INTJ or INTP either, some things just seem to depend on the person.




listentothemountains said:


> 6) When working on a project what is normally your emphasis? Do you like to have control of the outcome? My emphasis is on getting it done to a good enough standard, and correctly.


Hard to say again. If you answered that you like to control the outcome, it would probably indicate INTJ, but you didn't. I as INTP would answer that I just want to do my part well enough, do what is needed, maybe even give an innovative touch to it if I knew what I was doing. Your answer looks more INTP to me, but I'm not sure.




listentothemountains said:


> 7) Describe us a time where you had a lot of fun. How is your memory of it?
> I have a lot of fun when I am spending time with people who can make me laugh, mostly ISTPs who say silly things.


My INTJ friend prefers to have fun this way, I don't even know how I prefer to have fun. Maybe it just depends on the person.



listentothemountains said:


> 8) When you want to learn something new, what feels more natural for you? (Are you more prone to be hands on, to theorize, to memorize, etc)
> I love to learn on my own, and to come up with the results myself, and then compare with other people.


I think that is more INTJ, hard to tell. I prefer to get very interactive when learning something. But other INTPs might not agree with me for example.



listentothemountains said:


> 9) How organized do you to think of yourself as? Not very. My room is a mess.


INTP INTP INTP. Are there any INTJs who don't care if their room is messy? Please destroy my stereotype. For me: INTPs, messy. INTJs: cleaning and organizing "freaks" (I actually value it in them a lot).



listentothemountains said:


> 10) How do you judge new ideas? You try to understand the principles behind it to see if they make sense or do you look for information that supports it? I will look at it and see if it makes sense. Sometimes things just don't make sense, or seem ridiculous, but I can't explain why without more thought. Other times, I can. If I can't explain it, then I don't know it ~ Einstein.


That sounds like INTP to me. I like to believe that INTPs know what they don't know, and INTJs sometimes just fill the gaps (not sure on this one). Tell me if i'm wrong. In general, INTPs want to understand things, INTJs want to know as much as they need in order to get results. One is understanding oriented, another result oriented (like, coming up with relativity theory vs cure for cancer). Btw, Einstein is considered INTP.




listentothemountains said:


> 11) You find harmony by making sure everyone is doing fine and belonging to a given group or by making sure that you follow what you believe and being yourself?
> I strongly believe that individuals should be independent (and should stop looking to me for guidance!)


I don't like when people look to me for guidance as if I knew what advice to give them, because I don't. But I like when people want my ideas or my insight or just some kind of help. Not sure if your answer suggests either type.



listentothemountains said:


> 12) Are you the kind that thinks before speaking or do you speak before thinking? Do you prefer one-on-one communication or group discussions? I prefer one-on-one, and on trivial things I think before speaking. More complex things I think about first, and then I am ready to explain.


*shrugs*



listentothemountains said:


> 13) Do you jump into action right away or do you like to know where are you jumping before leaping? Does action speaks more than words? I think about consequences most of the time. Words speak more than actions in my books, because people sometimes don't show emotions, but it is much harder for them to lie about what they are thinking in words.


I think about consequences too much sometimes. I can't really say more on this one. Not sure if your answer is towards either type.



listentothemountains said:


> 14) It's Saturday. You're at home, and your favorite show is about to start. Your friends call you for a night out. What will you do? I would rather stay home than go out.


You introvert. It really depends on the friends, doesn't it?



listentothemountains said:


> 15) How do you act when you're stressed out? I retreat into hiding, and try to analyze myself and determine where the stress came from. I can get sensitive, and defensive, until I step back and tell myself to look at it clearly. When I'm really stressed out, I feel smothered and it might take me a couple days or a week to work things through.


Analyzing oneself is very INTP in my book. My INTJ friend is confused and baffled how much I can overanalyze myself, she doesn't seem to do that much. Not in this way. But then again " might take me a couple days or a week to work things through" actually looks more like INTJ to me, but maybe not really. When I analyze something, then at one point I realise I'm getting nowhere with it and look for some kind of activity instead.



listentothemountains said:


> 16) What makes you dislike the personalities of some people? People who are arrogant, people who cannot see the other side of the argument, people who get upset easily, people who are too needy.


While INTJ and INTP are very different from the outside, they both come to that conclusion. At least from my experience. But INTP is considered one of the least needy types, having very simple daily needs. Depends in which context you meant that.



listentothemountains said:


> 17) Is there anything you really like talking about with other people? Yes. Quantum physics, and higher math, and programming are my favourites, but anything nerdy will do.


<3 Love these. While these topics are kinda INTPy, an INTJ can be very easily interested in these too. NT stuff. I find myself naturally interested in these topics.



listentothemountains said:


> 18) What kind of things do pay the least attention to in your life? The least? Hm, how do I know, I don't pay attention to it :crazy:. In my physical world, I don't pay much attention to objects like walls and often collide with them. In my mental world, I don't pay much attention to my own needs and view myself as expendable, if the other person will benefit.


I would say INTP. It is more important for INTJs to stand out for themselves (and others) and also pay attention to their surroundings.



listentothemountains said:


> 19) How do your friends perceive you? What is wrong about their perception? ? What would your friends never say about your personality? Lol my one friend said I was a robot, and others have pointed out that my emotions don't normally show. Others have warned me that if I'm not careful people would think I am always obnoxious, and some people think I'm angry and try to tread carefully to prevent my "wrath." I never personally criticize people, and I am fine with people being who they are. I am always willing to help people, in fact, I love helping people. I am sometimes afraid that I am not able to help, or that my method of helping people is incorrect or not working, but somehow I find myself trying anyway :tongue: I think the last thing any of them would say would be "warm." Although many of them would say "friendly."


Can be either type. I can relate to all of it, but also INTJs can be like that. Stereotypically not critisizing people and being happy with who they are is more of a P thing, but in reality I am not so sure it always works like that.



listentothemountains said:


> 20) You got a whole day to do whatever you like. What kind of activities do you feel like doing? :laughing: What an awesome question, so glad you asked. I have tons of things on the go, so I would probably work on one of my own personal projects. However, that doesn't feel like much of a vacation. On vacation, I would love to request an entire day of "alone time" to think.


Can be either I think. Even though "thinking" as Ti is the INTP thing, it doesn't mean that INTJs don't sit around and think, they just do it differently. I have a feeling INTJs might actually even need more time for themselves to think over time, while INTPs need to use Ne to actively keep thinking up and thus engage more in something to clear their minds. But it's just a guess.

Hard to say, but I would say INTP. But you don't come off clearly as one of the types for sure.


----------



## Timo (Aug 4, 2011)

listentothemountains said:


> - Organizing my thoughts with other people or for other people helps me learn it myself.


INTP.



listentothemountains said:


> - I learn best if I can work through a problem on my own.


INTJ.

I think what you are actually trying to say is that you learn something through and through yourself so that it makes sense to you, rather than just blindly listening to what others say. But in that learning process you interact with others a lot if there is any confusion for you. That is actually rather INTP. 
In my eyes INTJs just learn on their own and "get the point" fantastically well without talking about the topic at hand with others.



listentothemountains said:


> When thinking about things, I often manage to confuse myself. Sometimes it feels like I live in one of those infinite mirror rooms, where every argument has a counter argument. I want to make sure I am making the right choice, so I try to be sure I consider every possible angle and counter-angle to my arguments. Infinity is fascinating. When dealing with other people, I always try to see things from their perspective, including their objectives, their present state of mind, and their amount of knowledge.


I have not heard anything more INTP in ages. For me that statement alone makes you INTP. It would be an unusual thing to say for an INTJ.


----------



## luemb (Dec 21, 2010)

thanks @Timo I appreciate your perspective. Some of the things you said stereo-typically about INTJs are incorrect, like them all having perfectly clean rooms. Also, I'm finding that some things I said are true, but only in the context I meant them in, and, as such, some of them needed further evaluation. 

many thanks to @celticstained. I appreciate the reminder that, obviously, in my case, i'm probably not using the functions in the "normal" order. I really should work through this the other way and find out which functions I favour, whether they fit a pattern or not.


----------



## Timo (Aug 4, 2011)

listentothemountains said:


> Some of the things you said stereo-typically about INTJs are incorrect, like them all having perfectly clean rooms.


Yeah, I want to know more about INTJs, this far I only know one well. The rest is just off forums and descriptions.


----------



## luemb (Dec 21, 2010)

Timo said:


> Yeah, I want to know more about INTJs, this far I only know one well. The rest is just off forums and descriptions.


Not a problem, I just feel obliged to analyze your comments with respect to my own findings about INTJs concerning what is stereotype and what is not. For the most part, a lot of it is stereotype  PS - They are an awesome bunch and you should spend time on the forum. Just stay objective and you'll be fine.


----------



## Timo (Aug 4, 2011)

listentothemountains said:


> Not a problem, I just feel obliged to analyze your comments with respect to my own findings about INTJs concerning what is stereotype and what is not. For the most part, a lot of it is stereotype  PS - They are an awesome bunch and you should spend time on the forum. Just stay objective and you'll be fine.


I know one INTJ person really well.. But the problem with one is that sometimes it's hard to say what is the character and what is the personality. I know I threw a few stereotypes around, but I mentioned it when doing that. I have a good glimpse on what INTJs are like and what makes them different from INTPs. It's hard to tell if you are an INTP or just an INTJ who acts quite INTP'ish (maybe by believing for some time as that you are an INTP it affected your behaviour by projecting it's image on yourself?). I stand by my points, and by a lot of these I already mentioned that it's hard to say what is just character rather than the type itself.

EDIT: Btw you say you hardly understand Ti, but actually it's hard for me to understand that too. Even though I am using it a lot, it's hard to say what makes it tick or what is exactly going on in my head. It's easier to grasp in the combination with Ne. Ti+Ne can have that brainstormy effect, where all these ideas pop into your head, and then you start validating them with your Ti (it's what I'm doing, not saying you are an INTP, maybe, maybe not). It's easier to keep on track of it when writing all these ideas down, and especially in a conversation. But it's not a 24/7 thing, only if there is something what really sets it off, like thinking about MBT sometimes for me in past month.
But don't even get me started on Ni, that's a mystery for me.


----------



## Timo (Aug 4, 2011)

listentothemountains said:


> One of my close friends is an ENTP and when I was having a conversation with him recently he was talking about the political situation in his home country and he was laying out all the details and how everything was connected. As we were conversing I kept wanting to draw conclusions.


Ok, in this context you look like an INTJ. I even said a few days ago in another thread that the differences come out best from interaction with the other types (INTP or even ENTP being ideal for you). I'm just reading through this thread again, your text does have a certain INTJ touch to it, but some things you say are very similar to things an INTP would. A lot of the information is also irrelevant for trying to differentiate between the types (maybe a really good eye would make a good use of that information, but a lot of it I can't at least).


----------



## luemb (Dec 21, 2010)

Thanks @Timo I saw you going through the threads as you thanked some of my comments on your way past. 

I can't say anything about my type right now, neither feels right, and there are a lot of things that don't make sense from either perspective. I'm not sure how much I said elsewhere, but I'm working on it from a different direction: I'll figure out who I really am first, and then find my type. Knowing who I am is more important than fitting into a box.


----------



## luzluna (Apr 7, 2011)

I think you mentioned that you've already dismissed INFJ, but I think you should reconsider. Fe isn't necessarily about "people pleasing" and operating under "societal norms", especially in INFJ's with strong Ti. Ni +Ti very easily sees completely through socially imposed morality to create it's own ideal, which is expressed through Fe. 

Reasons I think you're an INFJ and not INTJ or INTP:
- The functions you use and don't use. Your intuition is entirely within yourself, and you use it to build internal streams of thought (Ni + Ti). Neither thinking nor intuition seems to be directed outwardly, which would rule out both Te and Ne. What IS directed outwardly is evident in your politeness and thoughtfulness in your comments regarding your observations of others. Your consideration of others in more that one way seems indicative of Fe, in particular Ni+Fe. 

- Your seeming displeasure in Fe. Many people with a strong tertiary function can feel as though they don't relate with their secondary functions as much as their tertiary. This happens because the tertiary is oriented in the same direction (introverted or extraverted) as the dominant function, thus the individual feels that it is more "them". (If, in your case, you feel you can relate strongly to both Ti and Ni dominant types and also claim that you have a hard time figuring out which is your dominant function, it's likely that you use both and one of the functions is dominant. That would narrow it down to ISTP or INFJ. Your paragraph about how you experience your Sensing function mentions that you enjoy slipping into the moment, but you can't stay there for very long. This is indicative of Se inferiority, narrowing it down further to INFJ.)

- The way you describe your thinking process is familiar to me. I could, of course, be mistaken in my interpretation and have been looking through INFJ goggles, but much of what you've said sound like similar ways to describe a similar thought process to my own. I could rummage through here and pick out exact examples, but you've given us a lot of information to interpret and I'm just too lazy at the moment to sift through it all. 

- INFJ's mistype themselves as INTP's and INTJ's all the time, especially male INFJ's and INFJ's with strong Ti.


----------



## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

listentothemountains said:


> Thanks @Timo I saw you going through the threads as you thanked some of my comments on your way past.
> 
> I can't say anything about my type right now, neither feels right, and there are a lot of things that don't make sense from either perspective. I'm not sure how much I said elsewhere, but I'm working on it from a different direction: I'll figure out who I really am first, and then find my type. Knowing who I am is more important than fitting into a box.


The important thing is to separate tendencies from cognitive order. That's how I arrived at the conclusion of being ENTP instead of INTP. Life had constantly taught me to suppress my Ne until I knew was right. It wasn't until I looked back on my childhood and teenage years that I realized that I got in trouble so much because of my Ne. Having two J parents, they told me to think about what I do before I do it. I adopted it too religiously because the getting in trouble stopped. As such, I would suggest that you connect the dots from early childhood until now in order to figure out why you are the way you are, and figure out if that's because of your cognitive order or upbringing.


----------



## Timo (Aug 4, 2011)

@luzluna, these are some pretty interesting points. Definitely gives a new perspective and possibility. I just wanted to say that..


----------



## PlushWitch (Oct 28, 2010)

Remember in the type 6 identity thread where you could relate so well to what I wrote (it was you, wasn't it)? It seemed like only Ni dominant 6s could really relate to having several "me"s. I know, this is bad evidence (haha), but imo this points further into INFJ direction since you have also been (mis-?)taken for an INTP because of your use of Ti. This happened to me as well because of how I'm interested in researching things and because of the way I presented some polls. xD However, in real life nobody would mistake me for an INTP.


----------



## luemb (Dec 21, 2010)

luzluna said:


> I think you mentioned that you've already dismissed INFJ, but I think you should reconsider. Fe isn't necessarily about "people pleasing" and operating under "societal norms", especially in INFJ's with strong Ti. Ni +Ti very easily sees completely through socially imposed morality to create it's own ideal, which is expressed through Fe.
> 
> Reasons I think you're an INFJ and not INTJ or INTP:
> - The functions you use and don't use. Your intuition is entirely within yourself, and you use it to build internal streams of thought (Ni + Ti). Neither thinking nor intuition seems to be directed outwardly, which would rule out both Te and Ne. What IS directed outwardly is evident in your politeness and thoughtfulness in your comments regarding your observations of others. Your consideration of others in more that one way seems indicative of Fe, in particular Ni+Fe.
> ...


Thank you.

Yesterday I realized that I might be being too narrow-minded and blocking ideas. The only way to get to the answer is to be open-minded about the possibilities. 

When I read this though I had that feeling of knowing this was right, of relief. 



PlushWitch said:


> Remember in the type 6 identity thread where you could relate so well to what I wrote (it was you, wasn't it)? It seemed like only Ni dominant 6s could really relate to having several "me"s. I know, this is bad evidence (haha), but imo this points further into INFJ direction since you have also been (mis-?)taken for an INTP because of your use of Ti. This happened to me as well because of how I'm interested in researching things and because of the way I presented some polls. xD However, in real life nobody would mistake me for an INTP.


Yeah I agree with Ni being the one that causes people to feel like there are several me's.

So, a few more INFJ things about me
- extremely nice in real life.
- I have always been more interested in people than an INTJ would be, I rationalized it by saying that people are the most complicated systems that exist. (although now I think that computer programming is up there  )

So, my cog functions are Ni-Ti-Fe-Se + shadows in some order. That seems right. 

The only thing that seems weird is that my sister, and brother, might be INFJs as well, and they seem different than me, although typing by comparison is not a good idea.


----------



## PlushWitch (Oct 28, 2010)

listentothemountains said:


> So, a few more INFJ things about me
> - extremely nice in real life.
> - I have always been more interested in people than an INTJ would be, I rationalized it by saying that people are the most complicated systems that exist. (although now I think that computer programming is up there  )


Ok, just to bring back some confusion :wink: : 

- I know an INTP who thought he were an INFJ who can be considered extremely nice.

about the second point:
- Did this rationalisation of people come naturally to you? Or was it just caused by the fact that you thought you are an NT and needed to defend yourself in the face of INTJs adapting to their ways? 



> The only thing that seems weird is that my sister, and brother, might be INFJs as well, and they seem different than me, although typing by comparison is not a good idea.


The funny thing is that once I thought I'm an INFJ I started seeing INFJs everywhere at first. But only few of them turned out to really be INFJs. One was an ISFJ, one was an ISFP one of them might be an INTJ etc.

And actually I do think that typing by comparison is a great idea. You only have to be careful what exactly you compare. If you compare things that are Enneagram related while you're trying to find out an MBTI type, It won't work... you might either come to believe that they're the same MBTI type because you relate Enneagram-wise or you could come to believe you're different types just because your Enneagram is different.

But of course, it's even more difficult to type by comparison when you're not even sure about your own type. But then again, you could start messing around with logic and think stuff like "His way of thinking is more like Si than what I do, so I do have less Si than he does..." etc. ...just an example.


----------



## luzluna (Apr 7, 2011)

listentothemountains said:


> - I have always been more interested in people than an INTJ would be, I rationalized it by saying that people are the most complicated systems that exist. (although now I think that computer programming is up there  )


I think you're absolutely right. INTJ's are systems builders, but INFJ's are "people-systems builders". That's why so many of us go on to study psychology, sociology, anthropology, etc.

In fact, the first bell that went off in my head that you might possibly be INFJ is one of your posts in one of those INTP vs INTJ threads, where you left a comment about the differing styles of humor between each type and how they clash. You had an accurate and descriptive summation of your observations of each _system of humor_ within those two types of _people_. (Of course, not only INFJ's could seek and find those patterns, but INFJ's search for and study these kinds of things naturally, without provocation. We have a keen eye for understanding and appreciating all the different shades of humans. ^_^)

Also, I'm glad @PlushWitch and I could help you out.  She's right about "seeing INFJ's everywhere". Some (if not most) will turn out not to be INFJ's, but some might. I personally don't believe we're as rare as some statistics say we are.


----------



## slyspy (May 18, 2011)

Can I also throw in a vote for INFJ? INFJs and INTPs are difficult to tell apart from my own experience but I have related a lot to what you have said.....except for your use of Ni. I don't think you use Te-Fi. 

The first time I read this I saw Fe. 

"In my mental world, I don't pay much attention to my own needs and view myself as expendable, if the other person will benefit."-OP
which made me think INTP but then you also described Ni in your actions so I thought well maybe you are confusing Ti-Ne for Ni but no INFJ makes more sense.

This: "Lol my one friend said I was a robot, and others have pointed out that my emotions don't normally show. Others have warned me that if I'm not careful people would think I am always obnoxious, and some people think I'm angry and try to tread carefully to prevent my "wrath." I never personally criticize people, and I am fine with people being who they are. I am always willing to help people, in fact, I love helping people. I am sometimes afraid that I am not able to help, or that my method of helping people is incorrect or not working, but somehow I find myself trying anyway I think the last thing any of them would say would be "warm." Although many of them would say "friendly.""-OP

is also a lot like my INFJ friend.


EDIT: Also, I'd like to add that INFJs come across as more serious than INTPs at least from my own experience.


----------



## Kilgore Trout (Jun 25, 2010)

I'm curious whether you relate to Ni or Ne more, Listentothemountains.

Definitions of Ne:

"Extraverted Intuition (Ne) is the attitude that the unknown is filled with wonderful things. To make use of them, you must be flexible in your goals. If you try to set things up so that only something known to be good can happen, you close your eyes to the zillions of opportunities that you can't know or define in terms of what you know now. As more of the unknown becomes clear, the more it changes your understanding of the (currently) known.

To live, then, you need to continuously welcome the unknown, by always being ready to adjust in unanticipatable ways. What seems like a mistake is not a mistake when viewed in a larger pattern--and it's your job to find that larger pattern."

*Auxiliary: Extraverted intuition for INTPs*

"Ne finds and interprets hidden meanings, using “what if” questions to explore alternatives, allowing multiple possibilities to coexist. This imaginative play weaves together insights and experiences from various sources to form a new whole, which can then become a catalyst to action. Ne gives INTPs a grasp of the patterns of the world around them. They use their intuition to amalgamate empirical data into coherent pictures, from which they can derive universal principles. INTPs frequently puzzle over a problem for hours on end, until the answer suddenly crystallizes in a flash of insight."

*Definitions of Ni:*

"Introverted iNtuiting involves synthesizing the seemingly paradoxical or contradictory, which takes understanding to a new level. Using this process, we can have moments when completely new, unimagined realizations come to us. A disengagement from interactions in the room occurs, followed by a sudden “Aha!” or “That’s it!” The sense of the future and the realizations that come from introverted iNtuiting have a sureness and an imperative quality that seem to demand action and help us stay focused on fulfilling our vision or dream of how things will be in the future. Using this process, we might rely on a focal device or symbolic action to predict, enlighten, or transform. We could find ourselves laying out how the future will unfold based on unseen trends and telling signs. This process can involve working out complex concepts or systems of thinking or conceiving of symbolic or novel ways to understand things that are universal. It can lead to creating transcendent experiences or solutions."

*Dominant: Introverted Intuition for INFJs:*

"Introverted intuitives, INFJs enjoy a greater clarity of perception of inner, unconscious processes than all but their INTJ cousins. Just as SP types commune with the object and "live in the here and now" of the physical world, INFJs readily grasp the hidden psychological stimuli behind the more observable dynamics of behavior and affect. Their amazing ability to deduce the inner workings of the mind, will and emotions of others gives INFJs their reputation as prophets and seers. Unlike the confining, routinizing nature of introverted sensing, introverted intuition frees this type to act insightfully and spontaneously as unique solutions arise on an event by event basis."

*If you have the chance, take this cognitive functions MBTI test:*

Understanding the Eight Jungian Cognitive Processes / Eight Functions Attitudes

*Or this MBTI test:*

Advanced Enneagram Personality Test


----------



## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

I could see INFJ. Some of the more 'Te-ish' things listed could me more Se-related. I _do_ think you have Ni though.

Though I would say that INTJs who choose to study people can be very good with people-systems; in that case though it is excelling at an interest rather than a natural aptitude.


----------



## luemb (Dec 21, 2010)

Thanks everyone for more thoughts and ideas. 

I say my sister and brother are INFJs because they have both tested as INFJs. They are both quite similar in their personalities and sense of humour. Both of them are much more personable than me, and love to joke around with people. 

I want to make sure that I never say anything that would in any way harm, hurt or offend anyone around me. I feel awful if there was even a possibility that that might have happened. If I don't know what I should say, or how I should act, (which tends to happen a lot) I tend to retreat. I care a lot about my close friends, even if they don't know it. I always try to be helpful, and I'm always trying to make sure that other people don't feel like I am any better than them. Betterment in some areas leads to weakness in others. 

Other times, though, I know what the correct behavior is, but there is a voice in my head laughing at how ridiculous and illogical my actions are. I've already ran through the entire process in my head, I know where it's going, and it just seems like a pointless waste of time. "Why are we confirming our friendship in this way? Can't you see this is pointless to show that I'm friends with you? I'm friends with you whether I say the right things or not. (Though you would be offended if I didn't say the right things.)" Sometimes I say the wrong things just because I get exasperated by it all, and try to snap other people out of their expectations/fears. For example, my friend always says "Can I as a really dumb question?" and every time I try to tell her, via sarcasm or straight up, that there is no such thing as a dumb question! 

People are easy to study, they are all around. I'm not sure how much of my interest in people-systems is natural and how much is because I was bored with other things and math/physics didn't keep my stimulated enough. I'm aware, intuitively, of how other people think, what motivates them, what their connections are with other people in the room. (Especially people who are dating, or are interested in someone else. I usually know. There are tons of clues.) I am no good at using this information for myself though. It's there, it's visible, I just don't do much with it. I usually just observe, smile to myself, and get back to working out the forces on a concrete beam or whatever school work I have to do. 

To be busy thinking about some problem that is not people-related requires that it be something really complicated, something that needs thinking about, and also something that I can solve. I want to get back to theorizing about non-people-related things, but I tend to solve those problems really quickly.  However, I think I'm going to start on something big, as of today.


----------



## Navis Amoris (Feb 21, 2010)

Well, maybe you are over-thinking things and/or letting preconceived notions of how certain types 'should' act overrule the fact that a MBTI type is nothing but their functions (it seems to me that the type descriptions out there are usually tailored to people who only have reasonably developed dominant/auxiliary functions). When I look at your signature I see the 4 INFJ functions as the functions you identify with most. You seem to relate to Ni and Ti especially (as do I). Those two functions suggest INFJ or ISTP (dom/tert reversed). 

With Si being the function you identify with least, I would say that INTP is out of the window by process of elimination. This despite the fact you seem to have a strong preference for Ti. In the same way, being a Ti-user excludes you from being an INTJ who use Te (which you have listed as your second-lowest function).

This leaves me with INFJ and ISTP. INFJ being the more likely one.

edit: INFP seems incredibly unlikely because they use the 4 functions you identify with least.


----------



## luemb (Dec 21, 2010)

Well, in light of that comment, I should add that I'm slowly learning which ones I identify with the most in real-time action. Sitting back and thinking "oh that would be a cool function to use" or, as I actually think, "I see myself in this, a little" does not equate to use in real-life. 

Today I learned I'm an Fi user, and not an Fe user. Therefore INFJ is out. I'm not really sure that I use Ti, although my Te isn't very strong either.


----------



## slyspy (May 18, 2011)

listentothemountains said:


> Today I learned I'm an Fi user, and not an Fe user. Therefore INFJ is out. I'm not really sure that I use Ti, although my Te isn't very strong either.


Are you sure about using Fi over Fe? Everything you have written so far suggests the other way around but I don't know you in real life let alone how you normally act but what makes you think so?


----------



## luemb (Dec 21, 2010)

slyspy said:


> Are you sure about using Fi over Fe? Everything you have written so far suggests the other way around but I don't know you in real life let alone how you normally act but what makes you think so?


In the past, when I was in grade 8, I characterized myself as empathetic over sympathetic. That still holds true.
Secondly, I have an internal set of morals of what is right that does not come from outside sources and is not influenced by what others think. It comes up like "wow, that is wrong!" It's my own personal conviction.
Thirdly, doing things just because others expect it, or to satisfy other people's needs, feels completely fake to me. I will do things for people that I care about because I care, but not just because that is the socially accepted thing to say. 

I could be an Fe user if Fe was my inferior function, otherwise not at all. 

Anyhow, I'll let you judge: is this post Fe or Fi?


----------



## slyspy (May 18, 2011)

listentothemountains said:


> In the past, when I was in grade 8, I characterized myself as empathetic over sympathetic. That still holds true.
> Secondly, I have an internal set of morals of what is right that does not come from outside sources and is not influenced by what others think. It comes up like "wow, that is wrong!" It's my own personal conviction.
> Thirdly, doing things just because others expect it, or to satisfy other people's needs, feels completely fake to me. I will do things for people that I care about because I care, but not just because that is the socially accepted thing to say.
> 
> ...


If this is true, then I think you are an INTP because if you are an INTJ you wouldn't be having such personal convictions. That is either an Fi or Ti dom. type statement just based off that post. Though, on the other hand, you could be an INTJ that has a strong Fi....so you are either an INTP that has Ni, an INFJ that has strong Ti, or an INTJ that has strong Fi and not as good Te....good luck with that. :frustrating: :mellow:


----------



## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

slyspy said:


> If this is true, then I think *you are an INTP because if you are an INTJ you wouldn't be having such personal convictions*. That is either an Fi or Ti dom. type statement just based off that post. Though, on the other hand, you could be an INTJ that has a strong Fi....so you are either an INTP that has Ni, an INFJ that has strong Ti, or an INTJ that has strong Fi and not as good Te....good luck with that.


Not... really. An INTJ can have a strong tert function, thus have strong convictions. That doesn't mean it's always healthy or well-developed, but it can be obvious. Plus there's theories about dom-tert loops and tertiary temptation. In general, it's ten times harder to access your inferior function than your tertiary function, so if he started claiming ExTJ then this would hold some merit. But as it is, I could see it.
*speaking as an INTJ with strong Fi*

An INTP with strong Ni is... really rare, though, because for them Ti+Ne is often the real cause for what looks like Ni.



listentothemountains said:


> In the past, when I was in grade 8, I characterized myself as empathetic over sympathetic. That still holds true.
> Secondly, I have an internal set of morals of what is right that does not come from outside sources and is not influenced by what others think. It comes up like "wow, that is wrong!" It's my own personal conviction.
> Thirdly, doing things just because others expect it, or to satisfy other people's needs, feels completely fake to me. I will do things for people that I care about because I care, but not just because that is the socially accepted thing to say.
> 
> ...


This all sounds pretty Fi, to me.

FWIW, LttM, I always figured you were one of the "friendly INTJs," which is a compliment, I promise. As such, you might want to consider that your Enneagram (which you seem to have a grasp on?) might be affecting your probable-INTJ-like behavior. Another thing that could help tons is reading Beebe's model.


----------



## luemb (Dec 21, 2010)

slyspy said:


> If this is true, then I think you are an INTP because if you are an INTJ you wouldn't be having such personal convictions. That is either an Fi or Ti dom. type statement just based off that post. Though, on the other hand, you could be an INTJ that has a strong Fi....so you are either an INTP that has Ni, an INFJ that has strong Ti, or an INTJ that has strong Fi and not as good Te....good luck with that. :frustrating: :mellow:


Those strong personal convictions always show up out of the blue. I've had two this past week, and maybe 1 in the past 2 months preceding this. most of the time I'm pretty chill about things. 


@Paradigm I've read beebe's model, and it was really helpful. 
Would enneagram 6 be conflicting with INTJ? Suggesting INTP instead? I've always thought my E6 just made it more difficult for me to settle on one answer 

EDIT: Enneagram is a different part of the personality IMO. Here's how it works for me. As an 6w5 so/sx, I'm anxious about society and I tend to retreat rather that go to a support group. I also want to figure things out to make my life more secure. People puzzle me and scare me, so I spend time thinking about them and trying to figure them out in order to keep myself safe. I don't enjoy it, or don't have pleasure associated with thinking about people (such as Beebe's model would suggest if Fe was one of my main functions). Instead, I'm most content when solving impersonal problems, and trusting my intuition to guide me through the problem. When I'm organized, working fast and solving complex problems on my own I'm really happy and gain energy exponentially. 

So Enneagram is motivations and fears. Cognitive functions is handling, processing and judging information.


----------



## slyspy (May 18, 2011)

listentothemountains said:


> Would enneagram 6 be conflicting with INTJ? Suggesting INTP instead? I've always thought my E6 just made it more difficult for me to settle on one answer


I know a lot of INTJs that are 6w5. I don't think they are conflicting at all. 

@_Paradigm_http://personalitycafe.com/members/paradigm.htmlThat is what I was saying that (s)he could be an INTJ that has strong Fi. I don't agree that it is ten times harder to access your inferior than tertiary but then I have a stronger inferior than tertiary but whatever. I am an INTP and I seem to have strong Ni and from what I have seen from other INTPs a lot of them relate to Ni and Fi which makes this even more confusing. Like I said before (s)he *could* be INTJ with strong Fi, INTP who relates to Ni and Fi, or an INFJ with stronger than normal Ti.


----------



## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

listentothemountains said:


> @_Paradigm_ I've read beebe's model, and it was really helpful.
> Would enneagram 6 be conflicting with INTJ? Suggesting INTP instead? I've always thought my E6 just made it more difficult for me to settle on one answer
> 
> EDIT: Enneagram is a different part of the personality IMO. Here's how it works for me. As an 6w5 so/sx, I'm anxious about society and I tend to retreat rather that go to a support group. I also want to figure things out to make my life more secure. People puzzle me and scare me, so I spend time thinking about them and trying to figure them out in order to keep myself safe. I don't enjoy it, or don't have pleasure associated with thinking about people (such as Beebe's model would suggest if Fe was one of my main functions). Instead, I'm most content when solving impersonal problems, and trusting my intuition to guide me through the problem. When I'm organized, working fast and solving complex problems on my own I'm really happy and gain energy exponentially.
> ...


Nah, 6 isn't really conflicting with anything. Literally. Anyone can be a 6. So in that sense, yes, it does make it harder 

I wouldn't say it's a different part so much... I mean, you're right, the Enneagram does handle motivation and the MBTI handles information processing. That's a given. But I would ask how you can separate the two in your daily life. Motivation affects judgement; fear affects what you focus on. 

Okay, that's a bit of a long jump. My point is, Enneagram and MBTI alone, neither equals behavior, so if you're looking to see if you're stereotypically INTP or INTJ, you won't get it unless you're a 5w6 and even then it's a bit iffy. (I admit, however, I am a bad person and didn't read the majority of the thread.)

If you feel like the impersonal is easier and less anxiety-inducing, you're probably a T...  Not really cut-and-dry, of course, but going by your signature and that, you're more INTJish. In my experience, INFJs want to solve people, INTJs want to solve problems.



slyspy said:


> @_Paradigm_That is what I was saying that (s)he could be an INTJ that has strong Fi. I don't agree that it is ten times harder to access your inferior than tertiary but then I have a stronger inferior than tertiary but whatever. I am an INTP and I seem to have strong Ni and from what I have seen from other INTPs a lot of them relate to Ni and Fi which makes this even more confusing. Like I said before (s)he *could* be INTJ with strong Fi, INTP who relates to Ni and Fi, or an INFJ with stronger than normal Ti.


Apologies, I probably read your message wrong.

But... I'm not really sure how one has a stronger inferior than tertiary, since most theories about order say we ignore our inferior and go to our tertiary for defense. Though, IxTPs (INTPs especially) seem to have unusually high affinity for Fe.

And Fi/Ti are often confused for each other, given they're both internal judgement systems. They both react against violations of their held beliefs.

My suspicion is that what looks like strong Ni in INTPs is Ti+Ne... I say this only because when INTPs describe their "AH HA" moments, it's not like how INTJs describe them. I do, however, believe that we use all 8 functions, so not discounting that part of it.


----------



## luemb (Dec 21, 2010)

Just to revive a really old thread: This suits me perfectly: Intuitive Logical Introtim - Wikisocion

It is fascinating how two different methods can take apart people's minds and separate the ideas/functions in two different ways. They are basically two different sets of boxes, two different sorting methods, that cover exactly the same ground. Pretty cool.


----------



## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Paradigm said:


> Not... really. An INTJ can have a strong tert function, thus have strong convictions.


No frikkin kidding.


----------



## luemb (Dec 21, 2010)

name said:


> 2) I needed time apart from him to think about him. I know that sounds weird, but I had to sort of create an "idea" of him in my head separate from the reality of him and give myself time to process what we'd be like in a relationship together.


Yeah I grabbed this snippet and brought it here. I hope you don't mind. I'm trying to piece together my personality. Is this Ni? I ask because I have to do this too... strange though it seems. (It must be, this does not fit anything else.) 



lirulin said:


> Re Si vs Ni
> 
> - for me, I remember past _conclusions_ and _interpretations_ and _meanings_ rather than events. The details I remember have to be tied to a meaning/interpretation/etc. for me to remember them. Hence why I always like to come to a conclusion - it is part of how I perceive and store information. Hence why I don't take conclusions too seriously. I imagine Si remembers the events more directly.


Thanks for this post. I was going to say that I relate to this very closely, except I also have a good memory of things when I am half-way through them. Ex. I am learning particle physics, but I stopped reading the book probably 6 months ago. However, I could pick it up today and keep going from where I left off. Albeit, I was coming to conclusions all the way along. 

hm.. interesting... a conclusion vs a decision.


----------



## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

Could be Ni. By its very nature as a subjective perceptive function Ni is next to impossible to quantify. Every Ni user experiences it differently. 

I generally don't have a hard time coming to a conclusion about something, but I do have a hard time actually deciding. I can get it down to a couple of well considered options, but then it's basically a coin-flip or I appeal to some other function like Fe, Te or Se to help me out ("will people like it, does it look cool, does it serve a purpose?"). I think this might be common of all perception types.


----------



## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

Hey! Are you still confused about your type? Perhaps I could offer some words about Ni from personal experience? I'm 95% sure about my type, though I don't tend to fit in with some of the people on this forum (I suspect some are ISTJ's!)


----------



## luemb (Dec 21, 2010)

Spades said:


> Hey! Are you still confused about your type? Perhaps I could offer some words about Ni from personal experience? I'm 95% sure about my type, though I don't tend to fit in with some of the people on this forum (I suspect some are ISTJ's!)


Sure, I'll take any and all advice/comments/criticisms/valuable insights/words of wisdom/personal life experiences via here, pm, my page, or even african swallow.


----------



## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

listentothemountains said:


> Sure, I'll take any and all advice/comments/criticisms/valuable insights/words of wisdom/personal life experiences via here, pm, my page, or even african swallow.


Well, let's see...
Are you for sure an I, and N, and a T? Try to think of their opposites. If you had to be an Extrovert, how would you act? Ne/Se/Fe/Te? If you had to be a Sensor, how would you perceive? Se/Si? If you had to be a Feeler, would you adopt Fi or Fe? If you take your answers to those, you could perhaps come up with a type containing them. Personally, my initial suggestion would be "determine if you are a J or a P", but that seems to be the main issue here, so I'm not going to ask you that =P And I'm assuming you've already tried endlessly to determine if you're Ni or Ne.

Something else I've noticed. INTJ's could have a very strong Fi, which is not something they openly publicize, but it's there. It probably contributes to the "stubbornness" because they may feel their values are violated. This happens to me often.

To me, Ni gives me a drive of always improving and growing. Ne seems to be more stationary, taking what is and seeing what could be, but not with a particular drive to actualize the "could be". Ni takes what could be and narrows it down to something particular to _move forward_, in either a Te or Fe fashion.


----------



## luemb (Dec 21, 2010)

Spades said:


> Well, let's see...
> Are you for sure an I, and N, and a T? Try to think of their opposites. If you had to be an Extrovert, how would you act? Ne/Se/Fe/Te? If you had to be a Sensor, how would you perceive? Se/Si? If you had to be a Feeler, would you adopt Fi or Fe? If you take your answers to those, you could perhaps come up with a type containing them. Personally, my initial suggestion would be "determine if you are a J or a P", but that seems to be the main issue here, so I'm not going to ask you that =P And I'm assuming you've already tried endlessly to determine if you're Ni or Ne.
> 
> Something else I've noticed. INTJ's could have a very strong Fi, which is not something they openly publicize, but it's there. It probably contributes to the "stubbornness" because they may feel their values are violated. This happens to me often.
> ...


Thanks Spades.

Yes, I am sure on I, N and T. 

Part of my problem, I think, comes from not knowing which part of myself to look for the functions acting in. I know how enneagram works, and how it is related to motivations and anxieties, but I'm not sure where cognitive functions play a role. I guess they would be in the decision-making process, as in, what guides decisions (for the judging functions), although enneagram plays a role there as well. The perceiving functions would be involved in taking in new information I guess, and how we pay attention to the world around us. So, I should notice how I learn (and yet, the process of learning is a very complicated one!), how I interact with others, how I expect other people to be, ect? 

However, all of the functions are useful and have uses. So, if I'm dealing with concrete facts like when trying to problem-solve, I wish to use Te. If I'm dealing with abstract reasoning, like philosophy, I wish to use Ti. 

The other part of my confusion arises from being on the inside. However, if I know what I'm looking for, perhaps I can sort through what is important and get to a solution. However, I've started paying attention to what my friends say about me. My close INFP says that I'm a lot like my father (who I think is an INTJ), that I'm quite cold, that I look angry (more than I would have said for myself), and jokes that I'm a robot. My INTJ friend said, once, that I scared/intimidated him, and, on another occasion, said that I was probably smarter than him (at something he is really good at! I doubt the accuracy of his statement a lot... but I know he would never say something like that just to make someone feel good. He must have been over-inflating his idea of my ability.). When I first met him, I was surprised by how easy he was to understand. Over time, he often hinted that we think a lot a like. My ENTP friend says:


> Of all the people i've met in my life you are definitely one of the strangest.


Sorry for the mind-dump. I think this will be more effective than me trying to self-analyze yet again... perhaps after some of these questions are sorted out I can look into your questions to help me sort out which functions are my preferred.


----------



## luemb (Dec 21, 2010)

I will add this here: might give some insight to who I am, even though I'm talking about something completely different.


----------



## PlushWitch (Oct 28, 2010)

listentothemountains said:


> I will add this here: might give some insight to who I am, even though I'm talking about something completely different.


INTJ! :kitteh:
INTPs have a bit more structured way of telling things and it's much easier to follow what they're saying with a lot less pauses. The way you're talking reminds me of other Ni dominant people - including myself (minus Fe). :kitteh:


----------



## luemb (Dec 21, 2010)

PlushWitch said:


> INTJ! :kitteh:
> INTPs have a bit more structured way of telling things and it's much easier to follow what they're saying with a lot less pauses. The way you're talking reminds me of other Ni dominant people - including myself (minus Fe). :kitteh:


 Thanks for your input. I headed over to the INFJ forum and watched some of their videos and thought wow that sounds like me, except much more caring. 

Also, one of my biggest weaknesses is real-time decision-making. I've always been bad at team sports for this reason, especially things like soccer. I have this plan in my mind, but then things change, so it no longer works. This also applies when driving. I come up to make a left turn. I have all of these possibilities in my head of what do do in case of cars coming straight, cars turning, pedestrians, ect. however, the lady on the other side is making a right turn, and stops at the intersection for some reason. All of the sudden, things didn't go as planned, I have no idea what to do, and that's when I make stupid decisions. (Not that anything bad happened this time, or has happened yet. I just need to be more careful, because that is a major weakness of mine.)


----------



## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

listentothemountains said:


> Thanks Spades.


No problem! I actually don't know how to start recognizing functions either. I'm pretty sure I see myself using all of them. People on the site insist we only consciously use 4, but I tend to disagree. Regardless, I chose INTJ because I think I prefer Ni above all, Te for my extroverted process, and definitely Fi above Fe and Se above Si.

Edit: Watched the video. It definitely seems to have more of a J look to it, but I don't want to jump to that conclusion too fast. But definitely looks more J than P. The pauses seem to be where you use Ni and translate to Te. If Ti was your dom, the pauses would be much shorter.


----------



## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

After watching your video I would say INTJ too. The INTPs I know are far more into expanding the ideas and giving the detailed analysis rather than encompassing the ideas into a broad stroke. Also they are more dynamic when the focus is on them. It actually looked more like you were about the ideas and the expressing of the ideas alone. The fact that I didn't get bored with the ideas and insist (in my head) that you "get to the point" seems a pretty important point to me.


----------



## luemb (Dec 21, 2010)

bethdeth said:


> After watching your video I would say INTJ too. The INTPs I know are far more into expanding the ideas and giving the detailed analysis rather than encompassing the ideas into a broad stroke. Also they are more dynamic when the focus is on them. It actually looked more like you were about the ideas and the expressing of the ideas alone. The fact that I didn't get bored with the ideas and insist (in my head) that you "get to the point" seems a pretty important point to me.


And I would agree as well. I went back to that video challenge thread, the one you posted in @Spades (interesting video, you are a lot more confident than me, but otherwise similar). I watched XLPilot's video and it sounds similar yet again, and I also took a look at a few of the INTP videos, including EmotionallyTonedGeometry's (who is an INTP 6w5, so he would be very similar to me, if I was an INTP). Last time I watched his video I thought I didn't relate to him that much, he is older than me, and reminds me of my brother (my brother is an INFJ so I'm not sure how that ties in) and once again I can see how much smoother an INTP appears on the outside, and how much more comfortable and fluid they are. They actually like attention! And, they repeat themselves (for clarification I guess). I'm the sort of person that will force all the concepts into one short sentence if possible. (But not this time! ) I'm probably just writing to myself more than anyone else at this point, in case I doubt this again. Also, I too find myself tuning out the INTPs after a short while. XLPilot was really easy to listen to, and kept me interested. 

So, thanks everyone, looks like we can call this a case closed. I'm an INTJ.


----------

