# Why Is There No Sympathy For Those In The Friend Zone?



## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

Tristan Rhodes said:


> You think they don't try? You think they don't think about how they can make themselves better? You think they just embrace with open arms their bad qualities? Of course it boils down to what they think of themselves, but it's not easy changing and how do they know how to begin such a process if someone doesn't tell them? Alot of times, the first step of the process sounds alot like " Think better of yourself! " Oh yeah, so easy. So they dismiss what you say because they think you lack credibility for downplaying their suffering.


Lol, you're saying all of this as if I've directed it at you. I'm aware of when people are trying; it tends to show in their actions. If you want to have an actual discussion about this that's not rude and accusatory in nature, I would be more than glad to do that. Of course, at the moment I'm trying to figure out why I feel the need to explain myself to a complete stranger that started crap with me to begin with. I know who I am and I know what I'm about. Think whatever you will about me and make all the accusations you want. It really makes me no difference.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

Duck_of_Death said:


> Because you're insulting yourself by remaining in this situation. Cut your losses, move on.
> 
> I don't know guys make such a big deal about this. Women make up half of the population in the world. So where's the problem? Why do you get stuck on one?
> 
> Find another one.


 The reasons why guys do this have been speculated, debated, scorned, and defended many times before. That's not the point here. I want to know why so many people look at a person in an unhealthy and painful state and judge, ridicule, presume, and reject them instead of being compassionate and sympathetic. The object of the guy's desires is not the subject, but rather all those who comprise the third person on the outside looking in.


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## Tristan427 (Dec 9, 2011)

Ace Face said:


> Lol, you're saying all of this as if I've directed it at you. I'm aware of when people are trying; it tends to show in their actions. If you want to have an actual discussion about this that's not rude and accusatory in nature, I would be more than glad to do that. Of course, at the moment I'm trying to figure out why I feel the need to explain myself to a complete stranger that started crap with me to begin with. I know who I am and I know what I'm about. Think whatever you will about me and make all the accusations you want. It really makes me no difference.


Most of the "accusations" I have made have been directed at people in general. The "you" is usually plural when I say it in debates. At times it has been singular, but that is is because I have gotten a little carried away. And for that I apologize. This is a sensitive topic for me. 

I don't hate you, nor do I see you as a bad person. I just think you are trivializing something that can be very debilitating to some people and that is extremely frustrating.


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## WolfStar (Aug 18, 2009)

You seem to be getting very defensive. Just relax.


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

marked174 said:


> The reasons why guys do this have been speculated, debated, scorned, and defended many times before. That's not the point here. I want to know why so many people look at a person in an unhealthy and painful state and judge, ridicule, presume, and reject them instead of being compassionate and sympathetic. The object of the guy's desires is not the subject, but rather all those who comprise the third person on the outside looking in.


That question has already been answered.
It is human nature to harass and bully people lower down the hierarchy.

The common person figures this out in secondary school.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

I have sympathy for people in the friend zone.

HOWEVER, I will try to talk some sense into people objectively, if it seems like they're lying to themselves, or if they're irrationally bashing women (for example) by suggesting that women always do this, and men never do.

My comments in that thread had less to do with lack of sympathy, and more to do with the analysis of specific situations. 

It's because I realize that sometimes men who cry about being stuck in the friend zone and women never loving them...will ignore the girls who actually want to date them. 

The thread is actually titled "there is no friend zone" and I believe my first comment merely addressed the absurdity of the idea that every opposite sex friend a woman has is dick under glass to be accessed in emergency.

I actually have deep empathy for someone who was in a very truly close intimate friendship with someone for a long period of time, especially where some flirting, expression of attraction, confusing midnight sexting, or even minor touching or whatever may have taken place. A situation like that is deeply complicated for both parties involved and borders on a relationship in all but title.

I also have sympathy for those when no attraction was expressed, and they still clung to their dream of loving a very close intimate friend. However, those people need the tough love of being told to move on, _for their own good. _

Lastly, casually hanging out with girls in hopes of dating them isn't the same as getting rejected in a close friendship.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

Duck_of_Death said:


> That question has already been answered.
> It is human nature to harass and bully people lower down the hierarchy.
> 
> The common person figures this out in secondary school.


 Maybe it's about time for us to get out of secondary school, and maybe learn some more mature lessons.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

Tristan Rhodes said:


> Most of the "accusations" I have made have been directed at people in general. The "you" is usually plural when I say it in debates. At times it has been singular, but that is is because I have gotten a little carried away. And for that I apologize. This is a sensitive topic for me.
> 
> I don't hate you, nor do I see you as a bad person. I just think you are trivializing something that can be very debilitating to some people and that is extremely frustrating.


 
Well, I have explained my statements enough. If you don't like it, oh well.


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## Tristan427 (Dec 9, 2011)

WolfStar said:


> You seem to be getting very defensive. Just relax.


Everyone gets defensive with something. I just know what it feels like to feel so bad about yourself because just a year ago I was depressed and irritated constantly. Seeing people trivialize the things I felt just a year ago makes me so angry. They don't understand. People are stigmatized for self esteem issues, depression, anxiety, awkwardness, and it just enrages me. Some here have gone though what has been discussed, but most of the people here doing the trivializing have either never been through these issues, or they went through them for such a short period of time it was easier to fix things.

When someone has had self esteem issues for years, it's harder to fix things and people don't seem to get that. I have begun to fix mine these past few months, and that has been difficult and time consuming. Very rewarding and totally worth it, but not as easy as some make it out to be.

@Ace Face: You have made several statements which imply things, and then state actions as if they prove otherwise. Actions do not disprove those things. Plus, you can end the hostility now. I've vented, my mind is clearer now. However I still think you are trivializing the issues of others. "Who's fault is it really that they lack confidence and belief in themselves? Yes, people go through bad shit. EVERYONE goes through bad shit. It's no excuse not to keep pressing on, and it's not a good reason not to believe in yourself. In that sense, I don't feel sorry for them because they have the capacity to turn it around." 
Like that.

They CAN fix things. Some of them don't believe that, they need evidence that someone felt the same way they did and fixed it. You say you know it isn't easy, but I don't think you fully grasp how hard it really is.

When I had really low self esteem, I said some things I knew weren't 100% true about myself. But I said them because I felt so bad. At times Sarah has remarked " It seems like you enjoy making yourself feel like crap. " I really don't, but I have thought some things for so long that saying them is like letting hot steam out. The effect isn't immediate, but the more I let out and the more Sarah shows the negativity about myself was unfounded, the better I feel.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

marked174 said:


> The reasons why guys do this have been speculated, debated, scorned, and defended many times before. That's not the point here. I want to know why so many people look at a person in an unhealthy and painful state and judge, ridicule, presume, and reject them instead of being compassionate and sympathetic. The object of the guy's desires is not the subject, but rather all those who comprise the third person on the outside looking in.


People do this in a myriad of situations, including mocking the mentally ill, and other kinds of bullying. It's a social phenomenon. 

Also certain individuals may have strong compassion for one type of suffering, but not for another, because of their own life experience or their value system.


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## Mendi the ISFJ (Jul 28, 2011)

i think there IS a friend zone but that its not necessarily a permanent place. Once you start thinking of someone a certain way its hard to see them as anything else. As to feeling sympathy/empathy i do, but then again i empathize quite a bit.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Duck_of_Death said:


> That question has already been answered.
> It is human nature to harass and bully people lower down the hierarchy.
> 
> The common person figures this out in secondary school.


That's some nasty inferior Fe you're showing, bro.


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## Mendi the ISFJ (Jul 28, 2011)

Oh and PS are you expecting NTs to feel sympathetic? dont waste your time. They want to solve the problem (by you looking for someone new) they wont necessarily understand your emotional attachment.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

fourtines said:


> People do this in a myriad of situations, including mocking the mentally ill, and other kinds of bullying. It's a social phenomenon.
> 
> Also certain individuals may have strong compassion for one type of suffering, but not for another, because of their own life experience or their value system.


 This is very true. And I'm glad you brought it up. Is the "friend zone guy" bullied disproportionately, or is hr equally represented when observing this phenomenon? I understand that the answer to this question is incredibly hard to discover objectively.


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## WolfStar (Aug 18, 2009)

Tristan Rhodes said:


> Everyone gets defensive with something.


Implying that it is okay, which it is not. I care not what everyone else does, I only care what you are doing right now. No one is out to get you. I don't think most here are readily saying that improving oneself when one is going through serious self-made problems is difficult, merely that it is as difficult as you make it.


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## Tristan427 (Dec 9, 2011)

WolfStar said:


> Implying that it is okay, which it is not. I care not what everyone else does, I only care what you are doing right now. No one is out to get you. I don't think most here are readily saying that improving oneself when one is going through serious self-made problems is difficult, merely that it is as difficult as you make it.


As difficult as you make it...? 

Hm...I will have to ponder that.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

I feel sympathy for someone who is experiencing unrequited love. 

What I don't feel sympathy for is a person who is too spineless to make their romantic intentions known and so they glom onto someone under the pretense of being a friend and then complain when that person doesn't want to sleep with them & is attracted to someone they don't like. 

However, in the case of someone who unexpectedly finds themselves attracted to an established friend, but the friend does not return the feeling? Yes, I might feel sympathy for them.

Or someone who makes their intentions known from the get-go, but is still rejected & designated as "just a friend"? Yes, I might feel sympathy for them.

I also don't feel sympathy when they refuse to look at themselves and see where they could improve instead of choosing to blame a whole gender on their romantic failures. I don't feel sympathy when they are also rejecting people who don't meet their too high standards but complain when someone rejects them for a similar reason. 

So not everyone in the "friend zone" will not receive sympathy from me, but it seems those who get placed there repeatedly have unattractive qualities they don't want to work on which erodes any sympathy I might otherwise have.


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## WolfStar (Aug 18, 2009)

Tristan Rhodes said:


> As difficult as you make it...?
> 
> Hm...I will have to ponder that.


You can be whoever you want to be. The only person stopping you is yourself. No one else is forcing you to be anything. You are responsible for your own life and thus, if you have confidence problems there can clearly be a reason that pushed you into developing them, but you are the only person stopping yourself from getting out.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

marked174 said:


> This is very true. And I'm glad you brought it up. Is the "friend zone guy" bullied disproportionately, or is hr equally represented when observing this phenomenon? I understand that the answer to this question is incredibly hard to discover objectively.


I've noticed that people like to make fun of weird or sensitive people, basically showing vulnerability in public is like waving a bloody tampon in front of a shark...they start to swarm and show their teeth and eventually bite if they can get close enough. Duck of Death is factually correct in noticing this ugly aspect of human nature, but to almost state it flatly as if it's simply common sense to be accepted is another matter entirely...I don't think it should necessarily happen, and I don't think that because people do this, that everyone should repress their sensitivity and pain lest they be mocked. It can almost take the shape of "hey you show vulnerability, you deserve to be mocked, you should have known better!" 

Like I've had experiences with people expressing they were perfectly within their rights to be cruel and insulting if witnessing a public argument or break-up between two individuals. Basically "you should have known better to keep it completely private, discussing this in public is fair game to act like Romans in a Colosseum cheering on the lions eating the Christians." 

However, I mean, when it's not happening to you, sometimes it looks funny from a distance, but if the same thing happened to that person, they probably wouldn't be laughing at all. It's simple lack of empathy. They have no sense of it could happen to them, so they shouldn't go out of their way to make fun of others.

Meh - it's pretty complicated. Like some people have value systems where a certain kind of complaining looks entirely unacceptable and babying that person would be "enabling" their behavior and not helping them at all. Enabling is bad. 

I don't think I'm some gleaming bastion of compassion on the Intertardz, I mean I know there are situations where I've been less than sympathetic, and it's usually because I reason through my value system that sympathy really isn't the best course of action in that situation.

We're all human, we all make mistakes, but you are right to point out the lack of compassion in people sometimes toward people who are hurting. However, we also need to examine the specifics of their own situation before just saying we should just pity everyone who complains.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

WolfStar said:


> You can be whoever you want to be. The only person stopping you is yourself. No one else is forcing you to be anything. You are responsible for your own life and thus, if you have confidence problems there can clearly be a reason that pushed you into developing them, but you are the only person stopping yourself from getting out.


Telling an upset or defensive person to snap out of it just makes them more defensive. It doesn't work. Inefficient in handling said person.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

snail said:


> I'm glad it has helped you, but the approach that has liberated you is highly destructive to those of us whose needs are different. What nourishes you just happens to be toxic to people like me, and trying to force feed it to those of us who are damaged by it, promoting it as the only acceptable remedy, would end up annihilating us, the same way that forcing someone to live the rest of his/her life behaving as his/her opposite type would eventually cause that person's spirit to die.


Thank you for putting it that way. I see what you're saying now. I'm sure you know that if I knew that's how I was coming off that I wouldn't have presented it to begin with. Like I said though, nobody has to accept it or put it into practice. I would feel bad, though, if I knew that people were going through what I had been through and I did nothing to try to help. It was not my intention to come off as smug or condescending. I'm not that type of person. I wanted to help by presenting what worked for me; it could work for someone else who's desperate for an answer. I also find it incredibly disheartening when I actually open up and get shat on. I might be an ENFP, but I don't open up very easily when it comes to personal information and experiences. This is something that I feel very deeply about, and I shared this firmly believing that it could help. If you don't like it, that's okay. I do see where you're coming from now, but I'd also like to know that you see where I'm coming from as well. If you don't, that's fine, too. It's whatever.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

snail said:


> I'm glad it has helped you, but the approach that has liberated you is highly destructive to those of us whose needs are different. What nourishes you just happens to be toxic to people like me, and trying to force feed it to those of us who are damaged by it, promoting it as the only acceptable remedy, would end up annihilating us, the same way that forcing someone to live the rest of his/her life behaving as his/her opposite type would eventually cause that person's spirit to die.


Could you explain to me how it's destructive? To me it looks very effective for me as an SFP type to strengthen my Ni to step back and reassess and re-evaluate the same situation and see it from different angles so I refrain from black and white thinking, blame, and personalization.

It reminds me of what I've (at least intellectually, at this point, if not yet in the very fiber of my being) absorbed from Taoism, and a little of what a Buddhist nun was referring to in a speech I watched on youtube. 

As a reactive counterphobic 6 I also think it could improve my health levels.

I'm being completely sincere when I'm asking you to explain what is destructive about it, so that I can understand.

I understand that "confrontation" therapy doesn't work for everyone, but why is this form of therapy destructive?


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Tristan Rhodes said:


> Obviously. They should do what all sane people do, look in the mirror and smile, walk out that door and magically feel better no mater how long they have felt bad or how long they have been called pathetic.
> 
> Changing how someone perceives themselves isn't some magical thing where they can snap their fingers and change themselves around. People do the same with overweight people. " Stop eating. " They shout.
> 
> ...


your defeatist ranting is not helping your case.


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## bromide (Nov 28, 2011)

I have a lot of empathy for people who develop a romantic interest in a friend are afraid to express their emotions for fear of rejection. Having a lack of self-worth is a very painful and difficult thing and the situation is further complicated when you value that friendship and don't want to lose it. It's a terrible place to be.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

snail said:


> I suppose it is because people tend to lack compassion in general, for anyone who is suffering from emotional pain. Sometimes it has to do with the "just world" fallacy, where in order to feel empowered, many people imagine that all suffering is deserved by the person experiencing it. Sometimes it comes from being prejudiced against those who heal slowly or are more emotionally sensitive than they are. I notice that people who place excessive value on independence tend to have the least compassion or mercy when others need help. I believe this is a very serious problem, and that teaching people empathy as children can keep them from invalidating other people's pain when they are adults.
> Aside from this, placing less value on emotional suffering than on physical suffering, or blaming the person who is already feeling harmed, is evidence of materialism. In order to be taken seriously, pain must leave visible marks on the body. If emotional pain were valued as highly as physical pain, there would be no suicide, because people would be eager to comfort those in need.


what are you saying? that people are obligated to experience everyone else's pain for them? I deal with enough pain myself thank you very much


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

GoodOldDreamer said:


> To the OP: It's a simple lack of empathy. Or, for those types who do have empathy but still do not sympathize, it's a bias based on personal history.
> 
> And let's face it, some people will always prefer to be jerks. I don't really get that, but that's how it is. Kinda makes life suck for those of us with Fe, but whatever. They are the ones with the issues.
> 
> Anyway, as far as my personal take, I have sympathy for anyone who falls for another and their affections aren't returned in kind. It's a really sucky situation. It doesn't matter if they're direct or not, if they're flat out rejected or not. No matter the case, lost love hurts and I feel for anyone in it. When you put yourself out on that limb, sometimes that limb breaks. Some people will tell you to just "suck it up, man up, and move on" for all the good that'll ever do. I'll hold out my hand and help lift you up and remind you that there'll be another go-round, and not all is lost. )


I could turn around and say that all Fe users may Fi users' lives hard by
- suffering and feeling offended that everyone else is not suffering with them
- place harsh critiques and expectations on people who are successful and strong
- expecting love and emotional support from everyone like an emotional vampire and labeling them as a "jerk" when they feel imposed on and ignore them
- thinking that it is the obligation of people they don't even know to take care of them rather than taking responsibility for their lives and actions

...but I would prefer not to generalize.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Tristan Rhodes said:


> You may not treat them badly, but your posts show you think lesser of them. Pick them up? What do you mean pick them up?
> 
> Do I know who I'm talking to? I'm sure your username is Ace Face. Forgive me if I seem frustrated, just last week I was picked on by an entire group for being awkward. I'm getting tired of people looking down on others for not being perfect, or "healthy".
> 
> You can want a healthy partner, but perhaps help your friend build themselves up so they become someone else's healthy partner? Friends don't let friends stay in their vicious cycle. Don't condemn someone for not being as good as you are at something. Everyone has personality flaws and issues and making it look like something trivial that can be fixed in a heartbeat is absurd.


- no one is expecting them to change immediately, what we (Ace Face and I at least) are expecting is that they are making an effort to change and better themselves and their situation. 
- don't confuse those who pick on others with those you focus their attention elsewhere. they are not the same thing
- friends "let" friends do whatever they want. that's called respect. no one has the authority to not "let" someone do something. everyone has the right to do as they please. I won't be friends with anyone who tries "won't let" me do something


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## dejavu (Jun 23, 2010)

Ugh, friend zone. I'll be honest, I get a little bit pissed off when I think about it, but I realize that I'm thinking of a particular kind of friend-zoned guy. There are others that I'm sure are a little more pitiable.

I don't feel any sympathy for this particular kind because they are dishonest. The guys who befriend a girl, never once letting her know that he has a motive, that he wants to date her. He behaves like a friend, and only like a friend. Never asks her out. Yet somehow, he still feels like he is owed something by this girl he befriended and listened to. It's gross, and the fact that guys bitch about the _girl_ in this scenario is especially annoying. Sure, there comes a problem when the girl realizes the guy's intentions and yet keeps him around anyway...but that's not the issue at hand. And I will probably never feel any kind of pity for a guy behaving like I described.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> - n*o one is expecting them to change immediately, what we (Ace Face and I at least) are expecting is that they are making an effort to change and better themselves and their situation. *
> - don't confuse those who pick on others with those you focus their attention elsewhere. they are not the same thing
> - friends "let" friends do whatever they want. that's called respect. no one has the authority to not "let" someone do something. everyone has the right to do as they please. I won't be friends with anyone who tries "won't let" me do something


The bolded, especially. I don't know if this frustrates people with more obvious Te or what, in any varying situation.

Like I cannot bear when a person's subjective situation isn't really that dire, but they won't take practical steps to help themselves. Even baby steps.

That's why I like what @Ace Face posted about rewiring your thinking. For some people that can be as simple as looking out rather than being so immersed in their own subjective experience. And yes, I think teaching a man to fish is probably more noble than simply continuing to make him a fish dinner every night (though making him a fish dinner WHILE you're teaching him to fish is the decent thing to do).

There's this guy who drove me BATSHIT for years, he self-types as INTP and I agree he's an INTP, and essentially he's from an upper-middle class family, very intelligent, not lacking in resources...but with an unbelievable victim complex, I'm not going to go into detail, but I remember one time a few years ago I was like look, dude, if *I* can pick myself up and go forth, so can you. In fact, for all objective intents and purposes, he should have an easier time of it.

I honestly think some people are coddled into weakness, and allowing them to remain coddled isn't helping them, it's keeping them disempowered.

I just wonder how much Te factors into profound irritation with this kind of mentality, whether it is about being in the friend zone or whatever else.

We all have moments where we need sympathy, but there comes a point when action is really the only solution, and continuing to spin your wheels could actually make you weaker and sicker.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

GoodOldDreamer said:


> To the OP: It's a simple lack of empathy. Or, for those types who do have empathy but still do not sympathize, it's a bias based on personal history.
> 
> And let's face it, some people will always prefer to be jerks. I don't really get that, but that's how it is. Kinda makes life suck for those of us with Fe, but whatever. They are the ones with the issues.
> 
> Anyway, as far as my personal take, I have sympathy for anyone who falls for another and their affections aren't returned in kind. It's a really sucky situation. It doesn't matter if they're direct or not, if they're flat out rejected or not. No matter the case, lost love hurts and I feel for anyone in it. When you put yourself out on that limb, sometimes that limb breaks. Some people will tell you to just "suck it up, man up, and move on" for all the good that'll ever do. I'll hold out my hand and help lift you up and remind you that there'll be another go-round, and not all is lost. )


Well, as a Fi type, I don't condone EVIL through sympathy. I don't say, "EVIL, I'm sorry you're having a bad day; come here & let me give you a hug so you feel better!". I may be able to empathise in the sense that I can understand what led the person to their evil action or attitude, but I will not sympathize with it. 

What does this have to do with the "friend zone"? I will explain.

First, as I said in my first post in here, I absolutely have sympathy for those who are experiencing unrequited love, and this includes the vast majority of situations. 

However, there is a common theme with men on the internet when it comes to complaining about being a nice guy stuck in the friend zone because women supposedly prefer to date jerks. With the anonymity of the internet, their nice guy mask slides off and their misogynistic true face begins to show. 

With that said, consider this analogy:
A person is starving! But why? Because they don't want to go to the nearby fully stocked kitchen and make themselves some food. In fact, they have begun to blame and criticize another person in the room for not making them food, even though that person owes them nothing & they may not have even asked the person to make them food. Yet, they blame this person for their starvation and for their hunger pains because they are not eating. Then, they go on to blame the entire gender of the person who did not make them food for their starvation.

Does this person deserve sympathy? Or is this person acting entitled and playing victim and blaming someone for their situation who does not deserve such blame?

Now in the case of love, I realize that a person often does not get up and make something happen for themselves because of emotional obstacles that are hard to overcome. It's not as simple as making a sandwich. It is not mere laziness. There are insecurities and interpersonal dynamics and other things to complicate the situation.

My sympathy, at this point then, remains intact. But where it begins to erode is the next factor that sometimes comes into play...

The man begins to blame the woman he is attracted to for not choosing him over some other guy, even though he never indicated his attraction to her. Or maybe he did, but she simply does not return the attraction. He implies she has been using him emotionally and that she is mean and stupid for not choosing to date him. Or he says she enjoys being treated badly and that's why she chooses other guys that he thinks are jerks or less desirable than him. 

At this point, I may have sympathy for a guy if he has truly been led on and used emotionally because the woman knew he wanted more but she strung him along as a friend. However, this is often NOT the case. It is often the case that the man has some sense of entitlement that makes him think being nice to woman means she should put out for him, as if she owes him something because he chose to give her friendship. Now my sympathy has waned considerably.

Then the man may take it further.... because of his experience with this one woman, or maybe a few, he begins to paint the entire female gender as selfish users or maybe as irrational whiners who like being treated badly by men. In short, these men develop a misogynistic attitude. They use these beliefs to blame all women for their romantic failures instead of looking inward to see how they could improve.

At this point, my sympathy has completely eroded, because whatever heartbreak they feel does NOT justify their hatred and prejudice. I am not going to sympathize with them and in effect condone their twisted ideas.


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## BroNerd (Nov 27, 2010)

OrangeAppled said:


> With that said, consider this analogy:
> A person is starving! But why? Because they don't want to go to the nearby fully stocked kitchen and make themselves some food. In fact, they have begun to blame and criticize another person in the room for not making them food, even though that person owes them nothing & they may not have even asked the person to make them food. Yet, they blame this person for their starvation and for their hunger pains because they are not eating. Then, they go on to blame the entire gender of the person who did not make them food for their starvation.


I see where you are going with this analogy and I agree with you that it is foolish to generalize a whole gender over a few bad experiences or other emotional problems you are facing. 

However, you can always find food..you can't always find love [regardless of how great of a person you actually are], the truth is that sometimes it just doesn't happen..and even if it did, it usually takes much longer for a typical person to find love than to find a sandwich. Also, you can live without love but you can't live without food. There isn't a fully stocked kitchen of potential partners for most people.


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## BroNerd (Nov 27, 2010)

Person A: "Man, I hate that this bitch friend-zoned me and I've been so nice to her. She's my best friend but I think she's being unfair. Girls must only like jerks."
Person B: "At least you have a best friend."
P.S: I do have close friends but just saying that things could be worse.


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## Zster (Mar 7, 2011)

Please pardon my not wading through all 10 pages of replies (I gave up by page 7).

First, OP, generalize much? News flash, some folks DO empathize with the frustration of repeated rejection, finding one's self alone yet again etc... I think the issue lies with anyone who assumes that EVERYONE is against him, and is therefore an enemy.

For the record, I find myself alone - and have been for 6 years. This is partly by choice and largely by circumstance. That said, however, I am NOT "mad at the world" for my circumstances. In fact, while some unstated empathy is tolerable, I dislike pity, even if the person means it kindly.

And, to point out the obvious: you do realize that the ONLY person anyone can change is his or herself, right? It's not MY job to change anybody, and would be unkind for me to try. To lay a guilt trip on others for not changing one's self is absurd, and unfair.

If you wonder where the sympathy is, I agree with the poster quoted, below. I don't sympathize with the self-proclaimed "nice guy" martyr who blames female kind for every personal failing and yet still feels entitled to her body. These jerks are liars and bullies to my way of thinking. 



dejavu said:


> I don't feel any sympathy for this particular kind because they are dishonest... Yet somehow, he still feels like he is owed something by this girl he befriended.


We are not all programmed to be able to mate bond with everyone else. There are a LOT of mismatches along the way and finding any one person to connect with can take a frustratingly large amount of time. Being aggravated by the dating rat race in no way makes anyone terminally unique. We ALL go through it. Some just take it in stride better than others. Of course, lashing out in self serving anger is bound to draw 'em in like bees to honey.


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## Eerie (Feb 9, 2011)

Ok, all arguing aside in this thread. I think there is sympathy. I have friendzoned guys. I felt bad that they liked me, but at the same time liking me isn't my only requirement for dating someone. I am not just going to go, oh hey you have a crush on me let's totally go out some time! I have a lot of standards that need to be met in order to be in a relationship with someone, and all of those come from learning the hard way. So yeah, I feel for people who might be in love with someone but will only get to be their friend, but I know that's not the end of the world. There are so many people out there, to get out and get to know. So I think if someone stays friendzoned it's probably their choice when they can move on and meet someone else.


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## Paradox1987 (Oct 9, 2010)

I can't *sympathise* with people in this position. I can *empathise* with them sure. That's a passive commitment. It sucks being friend zoned. But what the hell should I do about it? I can't do anything about it. I am not going to invest my time and energy into a problem that has no solutions that I can provide. 

My sympathy is earned. Only my close friends and family earn my sympathy. Sympathy requires my active support, an emotional and time commitment. So I think people can empathise with folk who get friend zoned; but if they want sympathy... Gosh, it's asking for a lot. What precisely do they think we can do to change the situation? I can understand how it feels, I can understand that unrequited love hurts like hell. However, to actually take up arms and actively take steps for them? Not a chance. My sympathy is reserved for where it could actually make a difference rather than in an area where it'll likely be counter-productive and is almost certainly going to be ineffective. Empathy is all they deserve in my opinion. Sympathy is a dangerous thing to give to people.


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## snail (Oct 13, 2008)

fourtines said:


> Could you explain to me how it's destructive? To me it looks very effective for me as an SFP type to strengthen my Ni to step back and reassess and re-evaluate the same situation and see it from different angles so I refrain from black and white thinking, blame, and personalization.
> 
> It reminds me of what I've (at least intellectually, at this point, if not yet in the very fiber of my being) absorbed from Taoism, and a little of what a Buddhist nun was referring to in a speech I watched on youtube.
> 
> ...


I guess the best way to explain it would be to think of having an "interpersonal" coping style as being as different from an "independent" coping style as extroversion is from introversion. Just as extroverts seek out the company of others in order to feel energized and deal badly with being isolated for long periods of time, people with "interpersonal" coping styles seek out comfort from others in order to rebalance our feelings. We, as people, can be either introverts or extroverts, but regardless of which we are, our coping style is extroverted. 

Imagine telling an extrovert that the best way to deal with feeling drained and lethargic would be to stop hanging out with people. If the person were an introvert, this would be true. As an introvert, being around people takes energy, so it seems like reasonable advice. Now imagine being super pushy about it, making a kind of hate campaign against extroverts, saying that anyone who needs to be around others in order to reach his/her potential is inferior because it means they are weak and dependent, which are words that have been given negative connotations in a society that overvalues isolation. Imagine saying that all extroverts need to be punished by being forced into isolation, because as an introvert, you know what works best. 

If you were to do so, I doubt anyone who knew the differences between extroversion and introversion would support your approach. It would be recognized as highly damaging to the extrovert.

While this is not actually about introversion and extroversion, it is about having needs that involve connecting instead of disconnecting. It is very closely related. What I see is that people who need validation in order to thrive, who need to feel less alienated, who seek security and nurturance from others to get to a point where they are able to process their own feelings, are being treated as though we shouldn't be allowed to need what we need, as though we should be forced to accept the cure that would work for people whose methods of coping were the exact opposite of ours. Such methods poison us and cause us to whither away.

As for why Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is toxic to some of us, if we need to have our feelings validated in order to process them effectively, "Your situation doesn't matter. Your feelings are what need to be changed because they are wrong," is the very worst thing a person could say. It adds to the suffering rather than empowering us to eliminate it and further cripples us. I have known people, besides myself, who have been driven nearly suicidal by this approach. That is what happens when our coping mechanisms are stolen from us while our pain is increased.


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## Misha (Dec 18, 2011)

I don't think I've offered as many "like" posts under a single thread. So many beautiful thoughtful insights to share.

Most posters have shared many valuable points. I do have sympathy for those who didn't _intend_ to be in the friend zone. It is the place no person wants to be stuck in when it comes to relationships. But when we find ourselves in it all to often not knowing which way to go.

Those who have been in the friend zone at least once with high hopes of becoming more than friends. It’s a scary place especially when things aren’t going as you planned.

It is heart-breaking to listen to the person you love talk about finding their true love when you’re right in front of them with a sign on your forehead that says, “I Love You”.

Is it right to categorize someone into the friend zone if that person wants more than to be friends? The statement, “All is fair in love and war” would say it is. In this case, I agree with Ace Face and fourtines that the best way to get out of this rut you find yourself trapped in is to be straight forward with that person. If you don’t tell them how you really feel, you can’t blame them for not knowing. You can’t live your life thinking, “What if?”

If you end up being the exception and things work out for you, congratulations. If it doesn’t, at least you can say you tried your best and that that person didn’t deserve your love.

In all honesty, I thought Tristan Rhodes took everything a little too personally. I consider bluntness in criticism can be seen as a mean of hurting or insulting for the weaker souls. However, bluntness in honesty as Ace Facehas delivered to offer you her views should be taken as a form of exchanging values with sincerity as that's what ENFP do best in helping others to develop a stronger mindset.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

BroNerd said:


> I see where you are going with this analogy and I agree with you that it is foolish to generalize a whole gender over a few bad experiences or other emotional problems you are facing.
> 
> However, you can always find food..you can't always find love [regardless of how great of a person you actually are], the truth is that sometimes it just doesn't happen..and even if it did, it usually takes much longer for a typical person to find love than to find a sandwich. Also, you can live without love but you can't live without food. There isn't a fully stocked kitchen of potential partners for most people.



You didn't read my whole post apparently....


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## BroNerd (Nov 27, 2010)

OrangeAppled said:


> You didn't read my whole post apparently....


....you're right, I didn't. I take back my previous comments.


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## Tristan427 (Dec 9, 2011)

Misha said:


> I don't think I've offered as many "like" posts under a single thread. So many beautiful thoughtful insights to share.
> 
> Most posters have shared many valuable points. I do have sympathy for those who didn't _intend_ to be in the friend zone. It is the place no person wants to be stuck in when it comes to relationships. But when we find ourselves in it all to often not knowing which way to go.
> 
> ...


Help them develop a stronger mindset? You are assuming the ENFPs are the ones with stronger mindsets to begin with, or are in the right. 

I took things personally at first, but then I became frustrated at them for trivializing things they don't understand. They claim to understand, but if they did understand they would not have trivialized these things in the first place.


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## MyName (Oct 23, 2009)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> because the guy in the friend zone has no balls
> 
> he should go up to her and either say
> - I am attracted to you, but we can still be friends
> ...


I'm glad that you specifically said "guy" because I was going to point out that women get all the sympathy in the world in this situation. People are only rude when it happens to men.


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## Harley (Jul 5, 2009)

Stop derailing people.

Anyways, I don't have sympathy for people who are friend-zoned. I'm too cool for sympathy.


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

snail said:


> *Different people have different methods of coping with things.* I'm tired of seeing people who don't understand this telling us that we all need to deal with our problems the same way, and that the only way that is valid is the way that disconnects us from others instead of the way that resolves the problems through interpersonal connection. Your bias is no different from typism, except that there is no specific classification system yet to show that people are equally valuable despite their required coping styles.
> 
> It isn't a matter of the strong versus the weak. There is a reason Cognitive Behavioral Therapy causes more damage than good for some of us. *We are made differently, to need different things.* Criticizing those of us who don't fit neatly into the mold you personally prefer is unfair.


I agree that different people have different ways of coping and different needs. 
So just a person needing what they need isn't wrong; another person offering what they offer is also not wrong.

The fact that there may be a mismatch is unfortunate.

The people who want sympathy may give it more readily. Whereas people who are more pragmatic, don't.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

snail said:


> I guess the best way to explain it would be to think of having an "interpersonal" coping style as being as different from an "independent" coping style as extroversion is from introversion. Just as extroverts seek out the company of others in order to feel energized and deal badly with being isolated for long periods of time, people with "interpersonal" coping styles seek out comfort from others in order to rebalance our feelings. We, as people, can be either introverts or extroverts, but regardless of which we are, our coping style is extroverted.
> 
> Imagine telling an extrovert that the best way to deal with feeling drained and lethargic would be to stop hanging out with people. If the person were an introvert, this would be true. As an introvert, being around people takes energy, so it seems like reasonable advice. Now imagine being super pushy about it, making a kind of hate campaign against extroverts, saying that anyone who needs to be around others in order to reach his/her potential is inferior because it means they are weak and dependent, which are words that have been given negative connotations in a society that overvalues isolation. Imagine saying that all extroverts need to be punished by being forced into isolation, because as an introvert, you know what works best.
> 
> ...


Okay I see what you are saying.

Personally, I looked into CBT and I think if I were undergo this as an actual therapy, I would prefer to undergo Taoist CBT rather than regular CBT (there is also Christian and Muslim versions of CBT) ... because for me, the reason why I am able to interpret this not as invalidating my feelings or telling me that I'm "wrong" is because of Taoism. It's because of what I now understand about Taoism (and even a tiny bit about Buddhism) that I don't see it as threatening.

For all I know, the purely Westernized versions of this therapy are harsher, I don't know.

I do understand what you saying, and respect what you're expressing. 

Don't take this as "evangelizing" (it's not, I'm not even a Buddhist) but this Buddhist nun explains how you still feel and acknowledge and experience your feelings, without identifying your ego too much with external events and changing feelings, if you feel like watching this (it's about an hour long...)


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

Zster said:


> Please pardon my not wading through all 10 pages of replies (I gave up by page 7).
> 
> First, OP, generalize much? News flash, some folks DO empathize with the frustration of repeated rejection, finding one's self alone yet again etc... I think the issue lies with anyone who assumes that EVERYONE is against him, and is therefore an enemy.
> 
> ...


 I am aware that the OP has some generalizations. I wanted to discuss whether or not those generalizations have valid merits and what would be the causes and effects of having no sympathy for these individuals. Also, just because someone is spoiled and has entitlement issues doesn't mean that I can't feel for them. About an hour ago, while I was paying for gas, the guy in front of me was dealing with his spoiled son. He gave the kid a yellow icee, and he wanted a red one. The kid started throwing a tantrum and I felt sorry for him; not because he didn't get what he wanted, but rather because he didn't know how to be grateful for what he had.


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## Invidia (Feb 26, 2011)

BroNerd said:


> Person A: "Man, I hate that this bitch friend-zoned me and I've been so nice to her. She's my best friend but I think she's being unfair. Girls must only like jerks."
> Person B: "At least you have a best friend."
> P.S: I do have close friends but just saying that things could be worse.


Thank you.

My thoughts on this whole topic are largely irrelevant because I am married. But when I was younger, awkward, self-loathing, shy, what have you... I would have given anything just to have a best friend. Now I have him, and he is also much more - and I recognize how blessed I am.

As for the original topic, I do not have sympathy for those who are in the supposed "friend zone", but I do have empathy for those who are lonely. Loneliness is something I understand, but I do not have a personal vested interest in every lonely person. The world is a lonely place. I have never expected sympathy/empathy/what have you, and feel it should not be expected of me. That isn't me being unkind, it is simply my honest reaction to the entire concept of feeling sorry for a group of people that are supposedly more lonely than another.

2 cents here: My own observations with guys who got friendzoned (not necessarily by me) have been this: they came across as clingy, transparently needy, and overall gave off a "creepy" vibe. I obviously cannot state this is the case with every guy who gets "friendzoned", just my own experience and/or observation.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

marked174 said:


> I am aware that the OP has some generalizations. I wanted to discuss whether or not those generalizations have valid merits and what would be the causes and effects of having no sympathy for these individuals. Also, just because someone is spoiled and has entitlement issues doesn't mean that I can't feel for them. About an hour ago, while I was paying for gas, the guy in front of me was dealing with his spoiled son. He gave the kid a yellow icee, and he wanted a red one. The kid started throwing a tantrum and I felt sorry for him; not because he didn't get what he wanted, but rather because he didn't know how to be grateful for what he had.


How strange. I would have thought "that kid needs his ass busted."

Actually, no. 

On second thought, the best way to handle that would to be to take the icee away completely. You don't want the yellow one? 

Fine. No icee.


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## x__moonlight (Jan 27, 2012)

I usually sympathize with people who are in my friend zone, because I have my share of times where I have been in the friend zone.
sometimes though, they lose my sympathy. One example: a little after my friend told me he liked me (I told him i didn't like him back), he confessed that every time I talked to him about guys (when I didn't know he liked me), it was as if I stabbed him in the heart with a knife. Also, he kept telling me how much he liked me and stuff even after I told him I didn't like him back.

now...the reason he lost my sympathy? It was like he was asking for sympathy. I sympathize because I understand where he is coming from, but it's like he wanted ME to feel bad that I didn't return his feelings. And so...no sympathy for him anymore.


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## Erbse (Oct 15, 2010)

Ace Face said:


> Here's my take on it: people that are frequently thrown into the friend zone are usually lacking in confidence, and self-love/self-respect. Nobody wants to be in a relationship in which they have to play parent. I personally don't want to be in a relationship in which I have to be my partner's daily pick-me-up, and I would assume it's the same way for a lot of other women.


This.

Thus also saying that a 'friendzone' doesn't really exist, but is a byproduct of people's behavior, or lack of action for that matter.

No sympathy for a self-inflicted state of mind here.


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## The Shaktus (Apr 19, 2010)

This has been a interesting top to read so far. Great answers from everyone.

Personally, I can understand why someone would be apprehensive in trying to take a friendship further- shyness, not wanting to ruin a perfectly good friendship, fear of rejection, etc.- and I can sympathize with them.
However, I cannot *CANNOT* sympathize with someone who had ulterior motives going into a friendship. If a guy is attracted to a person and thinks "If I become friends with this person and be nice to them, they'll HAVE to have sex with me" is despicable and gets no sympathy from me.

Also, women are not above doing underhanded things like "friend-zoning"
a guy for the same reason, or if the guy has something she wants- money, power, celebrity status, etc....
There is article here on PerC on something similar happening to NBA star Dirk Nowitzki a while back...

Speaking of which, there have primarily been example of guys being "friend-zoned..."
What about women? Are they likely to gain more or less sympathy for whatever reasons anyone can think of?


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

The Shaktus said:


> Speaking of which, there have primarily been example of guys being "friend-zoned..."
> What about women? Are they likely to gain more or less sympathy for whatever reasons anyone can think of?


 This is an excellent question. I certainly think that friend zone girl cases are not as often discussed. I don't know if it's because they are less frequent or less severe or if guys are just more vocal about it or whatever. Perhaps that in and of its self shows a lack of sympathy.


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## Psilo (Apr 29, 2009)

marked174 said:


> This is an excellent question. I certainly think that friend zone girl cases are not as often discussed. I don't know if it's because they are less frequent or less severe or if guys are just more vocal about it or whatever. Perhaps that in and of its self shows a lack of sympathy.


There's this thing with teenage guys I've noticed in that they assume by virtue of being women, all men want to hook up with them and therefore they are never in he friend zone. I think it stems from being on the pursuing side of things and seeing the competition you have for the more "desirable" women and extrapolating that onto all girls ever. 

If there were no female friend zone, I wouldn't have had to listen to that Taylor Swift song over and over and over again not too long ago. It became so popular with the teens, because so many girls could relate to the main character "I've been here the whole time and why can't you see, you belong with me?"

The difference is "She only wants to be friends, thus I feel rejected" and "We seem to get along, why won't he notice me?"


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

Yes a woman can be friend-zoned.

It's when guys see you as 'one of the guys' or as a 'sister'.

But for me it's usually a mutual situation. . .


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## Rachel Something (Jan 30, 2012)

Here's my two cents. Sorry if it's already been covered...

I do feel sympathy for those who are lonely. Moreover, it would be painful to have your feelings go unrequited, and I can sympathize with that as well. I can also sympathize with those who lack self-confidence and therefore find it difficult to confess their feelings. I'm not exactly a paradigm of self-confidence myself...

However, I believe that people allow themselves to be stuck in that proverbial "friend zone" that they hate so much. And instead of taking responsibility for themselves, a lot of these people just get angry and blame other people for what is clearly _their_ problem. That is where my sympathy ends. 

See, it's pretty simple. If you're not going to come out and make your interests known, then you can either let it go and learn to live with being "just friends" or, if you can't handle that, you end the friendship and move on. The same principles apply if you make a move and get rejected. But don't just stay there hopelessly waiting for a moment that may never come to pass, and then bitch and moan and call for sympathy (and possibly even grow bitter and resentful towards your friend, who was never obligated to return your feelings in the first place.) It doesn't matter how much of a "friend" you are, or how "nice" you think you are. You can't always get what you want, and you are not entitled to anyone. No one can read your mind, so if you don't make your interests known, then most likely he/she will not know how you feel. And if that person has already rejected you, then you're most likely only making matters worse for yourself by clinging to some vague chance of getting together someday.

Even worse are the guys who complain about being "friend-zoned", because they _pretended_ to be interested in friendship with a woman, in hopes that she would reward them with an all-access pass to her vagina. If she doesn't give them what they want then she gets called a "bitch" behind her back (and possibly even to her face when they finally decide that they're done with her.) And so, I have absolutely no sympathy for them either. More often than not, those guys _love_ to complain about how "nice guys finish last" and "women only like assholes". They complain that the woman is knowingly taking advantage of them (and sometimes she is,) but at times the woman does not even know what's really going on.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

The answer to the friend zone:


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## daydr3am (Oct 20, 2010)

What The Fuck, "Nice Guys"?

This blog pretty much sums up how I feel about the friend zone and "nice guys."


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## BroNerd (Nov 27, 2010)

daydr3am said:


> What The Fuck, "Nice Guys"?
> 
> This blog pretty much sums up how I feel about the friend zone and "nice guys."


I think that the only annoying "nice guys" are those who claim that they are nice and all girls want are jerks.
I've been called nice by girls who aren't interested in me romantically but I don't go about whining about how all they want are jerks..to be frank, I don't think I'm really that nice of a guy. 
I can understand how the whole "nice guy's plight" comes about though.


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## traceur (Jan 19, 2012)

marked174 said:


> This is an excellent question. I certainly think that friend zone girl cases are not as often discussed. I don't know if it's because they are less frequent or less severe or if guys are just more vocal about it or whatever. Perhaps that in and of its self shows a lack of sympathy.


because we (guys) tend to be idiots. as the persuers we automatically assume all girls could easily get any unattatched (or unfaithful) guy they wanted, not because we are the persuers, but because most of the times we only really notice the girls who can, which in reality are maybe 10%-20% of the world's female population (statistics brought to you as a cortusy of numbers pulled from my ass).

where in reality, that girl who isn't getting all the attention is in a much more dire situation: she isn't getting asked, and society has deemed her the gender that isn't supposed to ask. its not that she'd get refused neccessrily, its that nobody is there to tell her that she should, all the ideals around her that she's exposed too are getting attention without doing much, so society isn't really offering her any solutions or telling her what is she supposed to learn how to do. so she'll sit there in the friendzone hearing her buddies complain about how the hot girl they want is putting them in the friendzone.


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## she_sells_seashells (Nov 13, 2010)

Here is my point of view on it, having 'friend zoned' many of my male friends in the past: When I seek a friendship with someone it is just that; I'm very outspoken about my intentions and I try to let others know to the best of my ability whether I want to be romantically involved with someone or not. In my mind there's never any confusion about feelings or whether we could be together eventually and all that. In the past I've had guys become my friends, pretend they wanted be close to me and that they loved me platonically, only to one day confess their feelings for me. To me that constitutes a betrayal because if I am clearly not interested in such attention, why would you dump all that on me? Especially being 'a friend' of mine, why would you pretend to be my friend when you have ulterior motives? I know I sound really harsh and probably like a crazy bitch but I've had a few incidents where people would spend years gaining my trust, knowing I wasn't interested (or that I have been in a loving relationship for a long time now) just in hopes I would one day reciprocate their gross feelings and it sucks and has made me paranoid of every man that might approach me. It also puts me in an uncomfortable position AND my boyfriend at that. If it's always a no, why would someone's icky outpouring of inappropriate feelings change that all of a sudden?


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## Elyasis (Jan 4, 2012)

owlwaltz said:


> Here is my point of view on it[snipped]



What if they had developed feelings after becoming your friend? I've had this happen to me before. Also, just because they feel romantically for you does not mean they are acting upon it sexually. Even so thoughts in and of themselves are not of concern to me. Actions are. If they don't act untoward then they can think whatever the hell they want. It's only a fantasy and it's not actually harming anyone but themselves.

Things change, I've changed my opinion about if someone was suitable for me after they displayed a different asset to their character that I never noticed before. When people open themselves up to you and show off their vulnerabilities you find yourself feeling new things about them. For me relationships are fluid. Sometimes we may be in different streams. Or we never noticed the other person until our streams merge/cross paths. Sometimes we diverge when we must take separate paths to where we want to go in life. Some streams are turbulent and rocky, some are mellow but hold deep waters.


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