# Limits on developing last two functions



## nevermore (Oct 1, 2010)

How far can you "push" you tertiary and inferior?

Doing so too much would of course cause great stress and is probably not advisable, but what are the "limits" on personality, as it were? Is there a point where your last two functions just can't develop anymore? What about the secondary, for that matter? Can it "rise" to be almost equal to the dominant or is it stuck as a slave? Would working on your tertiary/inferior diminish your first two in any way, or would it strengthen them because they have more of a base? How exactly does one go about purposely developing them anyway???


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

Oooh, this is interesting.

I've been hoping to get around to reading more about the dominiant-tertiary loop, and this connect to it.

But I think I'll just stop talking for now, and listen to people who know this stuff first.


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## nevermore (Oct 1, 2010)

penchant said:


> Oooh, this is interesting.
> 
> I've been hoping to get around to reading more about the dominiant-tertiary loop, and this connect to it.
> 
> But I think I'll just stop talking for now, and listen to people who know this stuff first.


I had heard that loops are actually a _bad_ thing. I'm really lonely and introverted right now...I go through tons of Ti-Si loops, and they really suck. I never get anything done - and worse, they suppress my imagination. Just an endless analysis of common sense choices. Booooring. But that's just in my case; I'm sure an Ni-Ti loop would be wicked...or at least it sounds like it would.

Yeah, I think I have at least a half-decent Si...I have a head for facts that rivals Sensors'. I am more interested in the real holy grail which is developing the inferior but I am worried about it doing something to my Ti/and or being hopeless. Ne-Fe makes an INTP go into chameleon mode which I consider a form of treachery to myself, but I am worried that is the only way to develop it.

For that matter I want to maximize my potential with Ne...I worry i may have hurt it with my looping, and besides...intuition is _so _much cooler than thinking!:tongue: I constantly find myself wishing I was an ENTP... 

Looking forward to hearing some real professional advice as well.:happy:


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

nevermore said:


> I had heard that loops are actually a _bad_ thing. I'm really lonely and introverted right now...I go through tons of Ti-Si loops, and they really suck. I never get anything done - and worse, they suppress my imagination. Just an endless analysis of common sense choices. Booooring. But that's just in my case; I'm sure an Ni-Ti loop would be wicked...or at least it sounds like it would.
> 
> Yeah, I think I have at least a half-decent Si...I have a head for facts that rivals Sensors'. I am more interested in the real holy grail which is developing the inferior but I am worried about it doing something to my Ti/and or being hopeless. Ne-Fe makes an INTP go into chameleon mode which I consider a form of treachery to myself, but I am worried that is the only way to develop it.
> 
> ...


Well, I'll keep babbling, because I don't feel like going to bed, and I might just as well use up some electrons while we're waiting for the rest to join in...

From my personal experience, the Ni-Ti loop seems to give about the same result as you are describing for your loop. A lot of thinking, but nothing gets done. In my case, it's like a very bad writer's block. So, it's really nothing to vie for.

I've heard that the inferior function doesn't get much use before the age of 40... I hope that's not true - it would be quite sad, I think...


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## nevermore (Oct 1, 2010)

Even more depressingly, I've heard 50, but I don't think that's destiny. I think it depends on how you live your life.

Means there's something to look forward to as you get older at least...:tongue:

EDIT: Checked again. You start being somewhat competent in it at the age of 35, but because it directly opposes the dominant, it is usually not completely mastered until the age of 50. I find it quite unfortunate that a function as conducive to success in life as Fe is in last place for me...:frustrating:


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## alionsroar (Jun 5, 2010)

I currently think that you can only easily develop your tertiary function once you have fully developed both your dominant and auxiliary functions.
Also you can only easily develop your inferior function once you have developed your tertiary.

For example for me:
Without well developed Ti and Se, my Ni is hard to develop since it relies on data from the outside world as well as some internal logic to figure out the patterns.
Without well developed Ti, Se, and Ni, my Fe is hard to develop since I have less data from the outside world, I won't know what the logical thing is, I won't be able to see things from other points of view or intuit what the correct thing to do is when Se is lacking.

Or maybe I'm just talking rubbish again but I think I need to work on my Se so that it's not just a passive sucking in of information from the environment but a more forceful interacting with the environment.


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## nevermore (Oct 1, 2010)

That makes sense...I feel my Fe is defined by tradition and past experience of what works...I thought it was because I was weak in it and so fell back on "good old, safe methods", but now that you put it that way it could be my Si. Thanks a lot.

Yeah, I totally agree about using the secondary as more than just an information gatherer. It's about freeing it from the clutches of the first function...mind you it is a lot harder to do this with the tertiary because it is of the same orientation as the first. The inferior also gets enslaved to the 2nd very easily. I try to come up with creative ideas when I write an essay instead of just discussing a theory or connecting data points to make sure my Ne stays powerful and as independent as it can possibly be...one of my favourite hobbies is creative writing which I think is particularly great for it. Si I honestly think is coming into it's own now, and not just through loops. It's not as exciting as Ne but the payoff is of course getting to the inferior, which I am in dire need of...


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## alionsroar (Jun 5, 2010)

I just feel like the last two functions are limited by your top two functions. The more developed the top two are, the more the others can be developed. 

Like say inferior Fe wants you to pay attention to people's feelings but that is exactly opposite Ti that wants to pay attention to your own thoughts. Maybe the older you get, the more developed Ti becomes so since you already know what your own thoughts are, you don't need to pay them so much attention and can work on Fe.

Or say Se is suddenly captivated by that flashy light over there but since you already know what it is, you can ignore it and think about how it relates to other things with Ni.


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

pc3000 said:


> I just feel like the last two functions are limited by your top two functions. The more developed the top two are, the more the others can be developed.
> 
> Like say inferior Fe wants you to pay attention to people's feelings but that is exactly opposite Ti that wants to pay attention to your own thoughts. Maybe the older you get, the more developed Ti becomes so since you already know what your own thoughts are, you don't need to pay them so much attention and can work on Fe.
> 
> Or say Se is suddenly captivated by that flashy light over there but since you already know what it is, you can ignore it and think about how it relates to other things with Ni.


But wouldn't they operate in very different contexts? I still don't see your reason for the two top functions determining the two inferior... As I learn to use more of one function, I do not necessarily use less of another. One reason some people are difficult to type is that they are well balanced in that they use many functions well at the same time. A function being dominant doesn't mean imply that that functions always gets the most use in every situation.

I think you need to distinguish clearly between tertiary and inferior, as they are quite different in use and development.


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## alionsroar (Jun 5, 2010)

penchant said:


> But wouldn't they operate in very different contexts? I still don't see your reason for the two top functions determining the two inferior... As I learn to use more of one function, I do not necessarily use less of another. One reason some people are difficult to type is that they are well balanced in that they use many functions well at the same time. A function being dominant doesn't mean imply that that functions always gets the most use in every situation.
> 
> I think you need to distinguish clearly between tertiary and inferior, as they are quite different in use and development.


I don't totally know what I am talking about.

I just don't see how it is possible to use the inferior properly without the dominant being as well-developed. How can I go around shaking hands and kissing babies when I don't have a Ti reason to do so? I could try for a bit but then eventually my Ti will scream and say why am I doing this illogical thing? Then I need to go get a reason before I can carry on my merry way. 

And the dominant cannot develop properly without the auxiliary being developed because of how one function is orientated to the outer world and one to the inner world.

Actually... what would operate in what different contexts?


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

pc3000 said:


> I don't totally know what I am talking about.
> 
> I just don't see how it is possible to use the inferior properly without the dominant being as well-developed. How can I go around shaking hands and kissing babies when I don't have a Ti reason to do so? I could try for a bit but then eventually my Ti will scream and say why am I doing this illogical thing? Then I need to go get a reason before I can carry on my merry way.
> 
> ...


Sorry if sound confusing. This is not exactly my expertise either, but I felt you might be generalizing too much, so I just wanted to ask some clarifying questions.

I very much agree with you that the inferior function is tricky. But don't totally write off the possibility that you could find a Ti logic to using your Fe, as soon as you are aware of your Fe. Actually, many consider the inferior function to be an aspirational function, so that it is actually something which you admire in others. But, not everyone likes babies, so YMMV. For me the reason to actively try to develop my inferior function is that I know that it would make me a more balanced person. Don't you think there could be expressions of Fe that you would think would make you a more well-rounded person?

I don't think that it happens very often that any function becomes more developed than the dominant, but at least in theory it should be possible, since the MBTI type only signifies preference among functions, not abilities or talent. In some circumstances it seems obvious to me that the tertiary can be more developed than the auxiliary for instance.

The tertiary, being of the same attitude as the dominant (introvert or extravert) will have the support of the dominant in its attitude, and if the context heavily favours introversion or extraversion, it seems to me reasonable that the auxiliary will be comparatively less developed. Of course the inferior doesn't have the same relation to the dominant, so that's a different issue.

I think you are right in one sense though, namely that it takes time for the use of any function to develop, which explains why normally the tertiary doesn't develop much until in your 20s and the inferior until your 40s. But that is a generalization which isn't valid for every single individual. There is, as I understand it, nothing intrinsic in the MBTI system that rules out exceptions in this case.

As for the parallell development of dominant and auxiliary, I agree that it would make a person more well balanced to have equally strong dominant and auxiliary. But not everyone does... An introvert with a weakly developed auxiliary will be very shy, so it's not healthy, but still possible. Again, maybe this was your point as well...

Coming back to my point about contexts again, what I was thinking of was the fact that perceiving and judging functions as well as introverted and extraverted functions do different things. As an example with the tertiary, it is in my case Ti, which I can use for judging as opposed to my dominant Ni which is a percieving function. In your example of Fe vs. Ti, both are judging, and admittedly Fe will not get much attention unless your Ti lets it, but since Ti's and Fe's strenghts are different, in some situations (think social interaction) that could be preferable even if your Fe is less developed than your Ti.

But obviously it would be a scary thing and require you to recognize your true self as not being identical with your dominant in order to acknowledge your inferior and give it space to function.

And if I still don't make sense, ask again.... As I said, I'm not that into this either yet... I just like to try to make sense of it. :happy:


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

I'm Ne-Fi-Te-Si. I believe my inferior kicked in before my 40s. And it came in, in a big way. I fought it, but it was happening never-the-less. I don't feel like I had a choice. It grounded me for a while and I felt "stuck". I didn't recognize the person I was at first. My way of perceiving the world was being challenged by Si. But as I learned more about it and learned to channel it and allow for it, I feel like my Si now balances out my Ne. My Ne is very dominant too so I needed it balanced.

Now I recognize how Si was always there in some ways.


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## nevermore (Oct 1, 2010)

I am 20 and I found that Si actually had the same effect on me. Is that why this has been happening to me?

I too found Si was always there, but it wasn't really doing anything practical. It mostly manifested itself as a fondness for tradition and unusually intense feelings of nostalgia. This tells me it was bringing out my Fe. I romanticized it before because it brought out string feelings, but now it is jostling with my Ne for power which is quite a painful experience. It won't make me any less imaginative, will it? But I guess I do need to be grounded as well...


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

nevermore said:


> I am 20 and I found that Si actually had the same effect on me. Is that why this has been happening to me?
> 
> I too found Si was always there, but it wasn't really doing anything practical. It mostly manifested itself as a fondness for tradition and unusually intense feelings of nostalgia. This tells me it was bringing out my Fe. I romanticized it before because it brought out string feelings, but now it is jostling with my Ne for power which is quite a painful experience. It won't make me any less imaginative, will it? But I guess I do need to be grounded as well...


Actually, I think it opens you up a bit more. You can see things from a different angle and deal with them accordingly. There is no way your dominant function is going to die. It will be as strong as ever. But as inferior grows stronger, the dominant may think it's dying. 

I believe my dominant _decision_ making function (Fi) continues to hold it's position and was/is essential in the process of building my inferior functions. Te (tertiary) will support and carry out the decisions I've made with my Fi when necessary. However, Te was not the function that made way for Si. So I don't believe my tertiary (Te) grew strong and then went directly to inferior (Si). That may have been the biggest struggle. But I finally realized I needed Fi to allow for my Si. I don't think it could have happened any other way.


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## Linnifae (Nov 13, 2009)

pinkrasputin said:


> I'm Ne-Fi-Te-Si. I believe my inferior kicked in before my 40s. And it came in, in a big way. I fought it, but it was happening never-the-less. I don't feel like I had a choice. It grounded me for a while and I felt "stuck". I didn't recognize the person I was at first. My way of perceiving the world was being challenged by Si. But as I learned more about it and learned to channel it and allow for it, I feel like my Si now balances out my Ne. My Ne is very dominant too so I needed it balanced.
> 
> Now I recognize how Si was always there in some ways.


Pink, do you ever experience a Ne/Te loop? I think I do but I'm unsure of what one would look/feel like. (I'm still trying to master function application even though I do strongly relate to what I read about Ne and Fi and even Te I think..)


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## nevermore (Oct 1, 2010)

pinkrasputin said:


> Actually, I think it opens you up a bit more. You can see things from a different angle and deal with them accordingly. There is no way your dominant function is going to die. It will be as strong as ever. But as inferior grows stronger, the dominant may think it's dying.
> 
> I believe my dominant _decision_ making function (Fi) continues to hold it's position and was/is essential in the process of building my inferior functions. Te (tertiary) will support and carry out the decisions I've made with my Fi when necessary. However, Te was not the function that made way for Si. So I don't believe my tertiary (Te) grew strong and then went directly to inferior (Si). That may have been the biggest struggle. But I finally realized I needed Fi to allow for my Si. I don't think it could have happened any other way.


I meant more the Si oppressing the Ne but I guess you're assuring me there no danger of that happening either.

Yeah...I guess that makes sense. My Fe usually needs the Ne to bring it out, because even though they don't go together as well since Ne is an "energizing" function, whereas Si is draining, if less draining than Fe. And Ti opresses Fe, so it's no good relying on it. I just don't like giving in to chameleon mode...as I said, it's so...ugh. Like a denial of my self. Though I do like to project an ideal image to the world it still relects at least a part of who I really am.

I think there must be way around it. I've used Fe without chameleoning before, in fact probably more often, but...blech, I just really resent it.


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

Linnifae said:


> Pink, do you ever experience a Ne/Te loop? I think I do but I'm unsure of what one would look/feel like. (I'm still trying to master function application even though I do strongly relate to what I read about Ne and Fi and even Te I think..)


I think this happened quite a bit on my youth when I was running around not trusting myself (Fi). I call this "lack of inner voice". But really, it was seeking more feedback from others. 

For instance, once I realized that I had an acting career built on the need for feedback from others, I had to stop and listen and find out if my Fi was okay with it. Once my Fi became stronger, I no longer cared about aligning my life with what I read, or what I'd been told, instead I cared more about how I _felt_ about things.

When I am in a leadership position (especially in groups), my students mostly see Ne and Te. However, I don't believe this is the same as looping because I'm not using Ne or Te to replace my Fi. My outward expression, how I come up with new ideas, and how I organize others, is with Ne Te. However, I am not using Ne Te to see myself that way.


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## Trainwreck (Sep 14, 2010)

I feel like my Fe has recently come about (age 25). I used to think tact was superfluous and "for pussies" but now I'm starting to try and enjoy "fluffy" conversations with people and just mirror their emotions and throw something back even though it's not my cup o' tea for the most part. I've found establishing rapport through pandering to feeling types tends to be extremely beneficial in my job, maybe that's not true Fe, but I suddenly have stopped saying offensive things just to make waves as I used to like doing.


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## nevermore (Oct 1, 2010)

Trainwreck said:


> I feel like my Fe has recently come about (age 25). I used to think tact was superfluous and "for pussies" but now I'm starting to try and enjoy "fluffy" conversations with people and just mirror their emotions and throw something back even though it's not my cup o' tea for the most part. I've found establishing rapport through pandering to feeling types needs to be extremely beneficial in my job, maybe that's not true Fe, but I suddenly have stopped saying offensive things just to make waves as I used to like doing.


Well I have never been the sort to say offensive things just to make waves, but I'm pretty good at faking Fe at least. I've actually been good at it all my life. I have this terrible addiction to finding out personal details about people's lives and having people tell me dark secrets that have been troubling them. For quite selfish reasons probably. The feeling that someone would trust me THAT much is quite flattering to me and makes me feel beloved. I have noticed I have a greater need than most INTP's to "have my Fe stroked"...like I hate any type of social disharmony and constantly need to be told I am appreciated. But I am certainly no good at using the real Fe...I can't manipulate a social situation to my advantage at all, though that is partly because I am really too scared to try...


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## myjazz (Feb 17, 2010)

nevermore said:


> How far can you "push" you tertiary and inferior?
> 
> Doing so too much would of course cause great stress and is probably not advisable, but what are the "limits" on personality, as it were? Is there a point where your last two functions just can't develop anymore? What about the secondary, for that matter? Can it "rise" to be almost equal to the dominant or is it stuck as a slave? Would working on your tertiary/inferior diminish your first two in any way, or would it strengthen them because they have more of a base? How exactly does one go about purposely developing them anyway???


Calling the functions inferior an such can be misleading in some way. The limits of our functions is determined by each individual ability to use them. Cognitive is our process of thought as to how we think, acquiring our perception of the world, etc. etc. There is no limit for our ability to think.
My cognitive function order is Ni-Fe-Ti-Se...how good is my Ni/Fe if I don't use Ti or Se. I myself have developed my Ni and strengthened it since I was young. My Ni takes little requirement for me to use, just as looking both ways when crossing the street as a child we are taught to do so after a while you don't even think(consciously) about it you automatically look both ways. The same with my Fe. The first two functions if properly developed should be like a natural state by the time we reach adult hood or late teens. Then our second set begins to get focused on more. For me I started to focus on Ti about the age of 15 then Se got more focus. Later I was able to use all four of my main functions properly.

If your first two functions is properly developed then the last two will not diminish them, instead strengthen them along with your personality.

This is my take on it that is........


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## myjazz (Feb 17, 2010)

I wanted to add my Ni/Fe or anybody else's first two functions is okay to use by themselves when we are a child while allowing our last two functions to kinda simmer. When reach life in adulthood it is important to grow our last two functions.


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