# ESFJ or ESTJ? J or P?



## dasch (Dec 6, 2009)

I've always been wondering whether I'm an F or a T, a J or a P for quite sometime. The test would always say I'm an ESTJ or an ESTP rather an ESFJ.


I'm outgoing and love to go out with a few friends but at the same time, I don't like to socialize. I would rather prefer one on one communications with people than a huge group of different people. I prefer to take small classes compared to bigger classes. I don't need an "alone" time and I don't feel drained after meeting a friend or being outside.
I'm not talkative, which is why I get along with introverts for some reason.
I'm friendly and I like to be friends with everyone.
I never talk about emotions or how I "feel" not unless talking about emotions would solve a misunderstanding or a problem, considering the other person and not only myself.
I always consider about the other person's feelings only if it's reasonable. Everything I do has to be because of a "reason" or it being "reasonable". If its a close or a close family member, I always consider their feelings regardless of it being reasonable or not.
I love keeping a long term friendship with a few people.
I've been told that I always don't show an emotion but rather an "unemotional" face.
I would rather cry alone when no one else is around but never if someone is around.
I show a lot of anger when fighting with a friend. I want things solved right here and there and nothing left unsolved.
I prefer to always do everything that's considered reasonable or has purpose to it, otherwise it's pointless.
I'm observant. I like to observe my surroundings before making a move for example.
I'm a matter of fact person. I always point out the fact whenever I'm in an argument for an example.
I have the tendency to be controlling, only because I know what's right and I want others to follow by it. Especially if I care for them.
Sometimes I come off too honest, but I sugar coat when I'm with my close ones. People always tell me "its not what you say, but how you say it"
I'm not at all aggressive, I like to hug and show affection but not too much.
I only show my affection to my family if I hug them or smile or if I do something nice. I'd rather show it by actions than say it.
I plan what to do for entire day and plan when I eat and sleep and on the weekend but never on-the-go
I finish my essays conclusion in the last minute only because I think it's going to be okay and in my mind, I'd at least get a good grade for at least finishing 10 pages.
I multi task, both work and play at the same time while doing my English essay. I'd finish the body paragraph plus the conclusion 30 minutes before the class starts only because I didn't finish it the day before.
I'm always late to my classes on purpose, but I'll never be late to appointments or any big events, it'll put a strain to my reputation if ever i'm late to any important events.
Hope I said enough already.

Help's appreciated! :happy:


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## Grey (Oct 10, 2009)

From the description offered, you strike me as more of an ESTJ than an ESFJ - and, if it amounts to anything, I can relate to some of the issues you listed. Have you considered trying a function approach? In the end, the types don't purely boil down to simply being organized vs. sloppy, or emotional vs. cold-hearted.


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## TreeBob (Oct 11, 2008)

Grey said:


> From the description offered, you strike me as more of an ESTJ than an ESFJ - and, if it amounts to anything, I can relate to some of the issues you listed. Have you considered trying a function approach? In the end, the types don't purely boil down to simply being organized vs. sloppy, or emotional vs. cold-hearted.


for sure an SJ, but if she is an E she is very low. From her description maybe an T but who knows. 
I would be fine with ESFJ or ESTJ.

By the way Mochi, are you from Quebec?


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## Grey (Oct 10, 2009)

I find that, from her list, a lot of it seems to relate to the ESTJs' sense of pride, which may make them come off a low introvert (for example, not being as talkative or not wanting to be emotional in front of others). That may 'overrule' the extroversion due to dominant Te.


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## kept81213 (Dec 7, 2009)

Ya you sound to me like an ESTJ which is what I am. The controlling thing is a J trait, and the settling things right here and right now is a extroverted T trait. Basically if you dont mind dealing with conflict straight on then you're a T. I understand about the introverted pride thing. I dont typically raise my hand in class because I am afraid that I might be wrong. I really wont say things out loud if i think they're wrong especially around people i dont know. I prefer smaller classes because then I have more control over what is going on around me. I absolutely hate crying in front of other people and almost really am not able to. I am not aggressive either. But I tend to show a lot of anger in a fight because then i feel less vulnerable and I tend to criticize others more than i should. I dont mean to sound heartless, i just am saying what seems logical, but especially to F's it comes off as very heartless.

The controlling thing you said was dead on. If I believe someone's doing the wrong thing for them it takes so much energy to hold me tongue and not be controlling of them. Also, I show my love through actions. I dont really like talking about feelings and so I'll say very objective nice things to people but nothing that mushy if I can help it. I show people i care by being there for them, helping them out in some way. Like recently I thought my friend was an alcoholic and he wasn't listening to me so I called his brother and told him what was going on. I could have easily lost a friendship, but to me it was more important that my friend was safe. He was getting way out of control so I had to do something.


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

ESTJ, you sound a lot like my boyfriend. I wouldn't just go off that though, like Grey suggested, look at the functions.


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## kept81213 (Dec 7, 2009)

oooo you have a ESTJ boyfriend? Because I have a best guy friend who is a ISFP and our relationship is the strangest connection i've ever had with someone. I mean like in a good way. Do you guys work well together? What problems do you have?


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## dasch (Dec 6, 2009)

Grey said:


> From the description offered, you strike me as more of an ESTJ than an ESFJ - and, if it amounts to anything, I can relate to some of the issues you listed. Have you considered trying a function approach? In the end, the types don't purely boil down to simply being organized vs. sloppy, or emotional vs. cold-hearted.


I don't quite understand as of now how the function approach works. Overall, I only have a little understanding of how the function works. I will look more to it and have an understanding of it. Though it seems since I'm not very extroverted, it make sense why I avoid social events and talking to a lot of people. I don't mind having a huge circle of acquaintances and talking to a lot of people that I know, it can be fun but it can be discomforting when there's a lot of strangers surrounding you. Thank you for your input.



TreeBob said:


> for sure an SJ, but if she is an E she is very low. From her description maybe an T but who knows.
> I would be fine with ESFJ or ESTJ.
> 
> By the way Mochi, are you from Quebec?


Interesting

and no, I'm from British Columbia now living in California :happy:

and to Kept, surprisingly, I can relate to a lot of that as well. I don't mind conflict to a certain extent, if it's not out of control. I never speak up in class because I'm afraid of my answer being wrong and I hate being wrong and corrected afterwards by a teacher or another student. I'd feel stupid for getting my answer wrong and speaking up, it's very discouraging. Only recently, my friend and I had an argument. We make sure we get to the bottom of our argument and solve every problems and misunderstandings we had. The problem is, he says that I'm not very easy to talk to and at the same time, he thinks I'm also controlling and want to handle the problem my way rather than having to handle the problem our way. Another problem is, he always has to prove to me what he has to say and his point and make me feel how he feels by making me feel how he feels. For example, when he offends me, and I tell him he offended me earlier. Of course he says sorry, I push guilt on him after he says sorry to make him realize his mistake and avoid the same mistake from happening again. The next day, he makes me feel how he felt when I pushed the guilt on him and always focus on him and his mistakes rather than focusing on me and my mistakes. This is the only time I understand how he feels, which he does often. Otherwise, I dismiss his feelings as "you're nagging at me too much, calm down". Which is why he sees me as careless. He's an ISFP by the way. We're close friends but we definitely have communication problems. I never admit to my wrong doings or say sorry, it's definitely something I should work on. Can anyone else relate to this problem?

Thanks everyone!


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

kept81213 said:


> oooo you have a ESTJ boyfriend? Because I have a best guy friend who is a ISFP and our relationship is the strangest connection i've ever had with someone. I mean like in a good way. Do you guys work well together? What problems do you have?


Hopefully this doesn't go on to long, it's off topic but... We do, although we are quite different, i'm more carefree, while he likes a to work, then play. I couldn't think of all the differences at the moment, but we are similar in many ways as well, we do have some similar future goals. 

We have been friends previously for 2 years, so it's pretty easy to talk to him, and I have explained to him that he should open up more, because he doesn't really say anything about his feelings or dreams, he likes to look strong emotionally. He has been working on that lately, and it doing very well, I should add. :tongue: I think his problem with me is that I like to be independant, and spend time alone. He likes buying me things and taking care of me, and wants to be around me as often as he can. 

Nothing more has really merged problem wise, we have only been dating for four months though. But it does seem like forever, but of course, that isn't meaning that is it bad.


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## kept81213 (Dec 7, 2009)

to inebriato, thanks for sharing! For me and my ISFP I do have to constantly remind myself to back off of him so he can have space, but its very difficult because I love talking to him and being around him. Its very hard for me also to share my emotions because it makes me feel really vulnerable and its hard for me to ask for help with any part of my life. However, I learned that once i opened up to my ISFP I feel absolutely no judgement from him or pressure which makes me want to do it again so that's good that your ESTJ is also working on it. I hope you guys last a really long time!

To mochi, that is so funny that you mention that because I have so much I could say back! Also, I haven't ever met a girl ESTJ who is friends with a guy ISFP like I am! So this is very exciting for me! I literally just got out of another fight with my guy friend like 30 minutes ago. We continue to have the same problems over and over again, but it gets better and better every year (we've known each other for 5 years now). He would do things that I would consider careless or like he didn't care, and in turn it would make me upset and I would yell and tell him that he was doing these wrong things. What i didnt realize at the time is that because of the yelling and telling him all these bad things he was doing, he eventually started to shut me out. He also would just think that I thought he was a terrible person/friend. What I learned is that if I was hurt I needed to tell him directly and say exactly why i was hurt and how it made me feel. And i needed to say it right away, without yelling. ISFP dont like conflict so they will do everything to escape the yelling including just shutting you out completely. He and I actually had to go on a huge break for 2 years because we got into such a bad pattern. The other thing I did, which is very typical ESTJ behavior is do what you said you do, which is not admit to anything wrong I did. After losing him for two years I needed to look back and see the mistakes that I made so that I could apologize for them. Relationships are made of two people so both are really responsible for the relationship. (believe me though this took me 4 years to recognize). I will say though that this year when we became good friends again that i felt like he was telling me i was nagging him when i said i was upset. It made me feel really silly and weak which I hate. 

It seems to me that you need to have the talk with your friend that I just had with mine. You each need to say what makes you upset about the other person and you both need to try and change that. I know at least for me and other ESTJ's i know, that if I found out an action of mine really hurts someone I will try really hard to change. So I stopped yelling. If my friend did something like, for example said he was going to show up and then didn't, which hurts me and makes me furious, i take a step back and calm myself down and give him a chance to explain himself without yelling. Then I tell him, you know that really hurts me and I feel like i cant trust you. It takes a lot of courage for me to say how i feel, because it does make me feel vulnerable, but he doesn't want to hurt me, so he's ok to listen to me. When I go on upset rants, i think that he just completely ignores me. But he told me that he just doesn't know what to say to that and so he doesnt say anything. 
the reason we used to go full circle is because i would get angry he'd stop talking to me, I'd calm down and tell him i was upset and that he was wrong, he'd put up a wall but apologize, then he'd think he was an awful person, i would feel badly and take it all back and then we'd come full cycle again. It's unhealthy. It's better if you say "When you did this, it hurt me a lot, and here's maybe how you can fix it..." but very calmly. And then ask him if you're doing anything that hurts him. Trust me you dont want to push anyone away by being to coldhearted or yelling. But you can work through it if you both really want it to work out. Try to also listen very carefully to what he has to say without interrupting and tell him that what he says is important to you, it'll make it easier for you guys to get along. Try to ask him if you upset him in anyway, and once you know make sure you work on trying to stop that. ISFP's sometimes tend to put others feelings way before there own and so it's important for your relationship if he knows that his feelings are important too, and that you both make mistakes. 

Okay i just wrote a ton lol. But if you have any questions feel free to ask me. My ISFP and I have been having communication problems forever about different things, but I think we've finally (after 5 years) come to an understanding. I dont know about you guys, but my friend and I know that these problems and struggles are worth it because of our amazing connection.


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## dasch (Dec 6, 2009)

kept81213 said:


> To mochi, that is so funny that you mention that because I have so much I could say back! Also, I haven't ever met a girl ESTJ who is friends with a guy ISFP like I am! So this is very exciting for me! I literally just got out of another fight with my guy friend like 30 minutes ago. We continue to have the same problems over and over again, but it gets better and better every year (we've known each other for 5 years now). He would do things that I would consider careless or like he didn't care, and in turn it would make me upset and I would yell and tell him that he was doing these wrong things. What i didnt realize at the time is that because of the yelling and telling him all these bad things he was doing, he eventually started to shut me out. He also would just think that I thought he was a terrible person/friend. What I learned is that if I was hurt I needed to tell him directly and say exactly why i was hurt and how it made me feel. And i needed to say it right away, without yelling. ISFP dont like conflict so they will do everything to escape the yelling including just shutting you out completely. He and I actually had to go on a huge break for 2 years because we got into such a bad pattern. The other thing I did, which is very typical ESTJ behavior is do what you said you do, which is not admit to anything wrong I did. After losing him for two years I needed to look back and see the mistakes that I made so that I could apologize for them. Relationships are made of two people so both are really responsible for the relationship. (believe me though this took me 4 years to recognize). I will say though that this year when we became good friends again that i felt like he was telling me i was nagging him when i said i was upset. It made me feel really silly and weak which I hate.
> 
> It seems to me that you need to have the talk with your friend that I just had with mine. You each need to say what makes you upset about the other person and you both need to try and change that. I know at least for me and other ESTJ's i know, that if I found out an action of mine really hurts someone I will try really hard to change. So I stopped yelling. If my friend did something like, for example said he was going to show up and then didn't, which hurts me and makes me furious, i take a step back and calm myself down and give him a chance to explain himself without yelling. Then I tell him, you know that really hurts me and I feel like i cant trust you. It takes a lot of courage for me to say how i feel, because it does make me feel vulnerable, but he doesn't want to hurt me, so he's ok to listen to me. When I go on upset rants, i think that he just completely ignores me. But he told me that he just doesn't know what to say to that and so he doesnt say anything.
> the reason we used to go full circle is because i would get angry he'd stop talking to me, I'd calm down and tell him i was upset and that he was wrong, he'd put up a wall but apologize, then he'd think he was an awful person, i would feel badly and take it all back and then we'd come full cycle again. It's unhealthy. It's better if you say "When you did this, it hurt me a lot, and here's maybe how you can fix it..." but very calmly. And then ask him if you're doing anything that hurts him. Trust me you dont want to push anyone away by being to coldhearted or yelling. But you can work through it if you both really want it to work out. Try to also listen very carefully to what he has to say without interrupting and tell him that what he says is important to you, it'll make it easier for you guys to get along. Try to ask him if you upset him in anyway, and once you know make sure you work on trying to stop that. ISFP's sometimes tend to put others feelings way before there own and so it's important for your relationship if he knows that his feelings are important too, and that you both make mistakes.
> ...


I could definitely relate to a lot of what you said and I thought I was the only one who was having this communication problem with a friend of the same personality! and yes, yelling at him was one of the problems that he told me about yesterday. We argued yesterday and argued again today. I'm starting to think our relationship's like a rollercoaster and very unpredictable. He thought maybe we could solve our problems through communicating more, which was his idea. We've communicated more ever since, we used to lack of communication which results in running around in a circle and repeat the same problems because of misunderstandings, and that same day, our problem's solved by the end of the day. I encourage our argument to end whenever one of us leaves, and not have it fixed tomorrow while he encourages us to communicate more and to let him know how I feel and understand how he feels. In 2 weeks time, the same problem would become a problem again along with another problem. My problem with him is how he rebels or jokes too much and almost take anything seriously while we talk. Often times, he feels that I'm controlling him or if I have a double standard, he starts to rebel or resist me. 

I admit to having a hard time telling how I feel, it makes me feel as if I'm weak and in disbelief that I told him how I felt! I would never do that, not to my parents or anybody. I didn't want him to know anything related to how I feel. Months ago he wanted us to make a compromise to be honest with each other, so I've been trying my best to let him know how I feel even though I'm struggling to tell him how I'm feeling. He'd constantly ask me what's wrong with me, he can obviously tell if there's something wrong and if I say nothing, he'd always pull it out of me and make me say what was wrong. I'm slowly learning how to tell him how I feel and how he's feeling. We're dealing with problems that's repeating in a circle, it's happening a lot recently. We argued earlier today about how he wouldn't talk to me yesterday. He shut me off and didn't talk to me because I've been angry and yelling at him recently or I made him wait along with another problem.

We almost reached the point that we both decided to go apart from each other, we talk a lot basically. Almost everyday if not every other day. We had too much problems and our arguments would get intense. I've always been one sided with him until I read about what I can do and what he's told me today. He's told me a lot of times that what I say hurts like a knife, which I didn't even mean or realize. I'd tell him I was sorry. A lot of our arguments are based on "small" problems, and he'd get offended and argue how our problems aren't small to him or measurable even which I understand. I let go of what more he has to say or it'll most likely lead to another argument.

He does put other people's feelings in front and tells me how I should watch what I say and that I could say it more caring and at the same time appear honest. I stopped yelling at him, it would only make our conversation worse 

None of us has had it and I'm staying so is he. He's a great friend to have but a lot of problems. I told him earlier, we have to understand each other and accept our differences. He promised me we'd be friends forever, which made me smile at first. I value long term friendships and this made me happy for quite sometime.

Anyway, hope you two are also doing well! Best wishes to your friendship! and 5 years is a long time already! I hope we won't argue by the time we've been friends for 5 years. We've only been friends for 2 years going 3 this year. Our friendship's still progressing most definitely now that we're both pitching in and it's not a one sided relationship like how I desired it to be. Conflict's solved, everything's going great, as of now. It's all good! :happy:


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## Blissfulwish (Jul 7, 2009)

Mochi said:


> I've always been wondering whether I'm an F or a T, a J or a P for quite sometime. The test would always say I'm an ESTJ or an ESTP rather an ESFJ.
> 
> 
> I'm outgoing and love to go out with a few friends but at the same time, I don't like to socialize. I would rather prefer one on one communications with people than a huge group of different people. I prefer to take small classes compared to bigger classes. I don't need an "alone" time and I don't feel drained after meeting a friend or being outside.
> ...


Mochi, you sound like my long lost twin o.o!

The only thing that I can't identify with is "I've been told that I always don't show an emotion but rather an "unemotional" face."
I guess I have one of those faces where you can see what i'm thinking in my mind >_> I think sometimes when I am feeling more than one emotion, the wrong one shows on my face and it creates more tension more than necessary. 

The rest is very similar to how I think, handle others, and also, how I present myself.

On the whole thing about crying... The main reason why I don't like to cry in front of others might be these reasons;
1. I don't want to bother them with my problems when I know they have their own to deal with (make the situation worse)
2. I don't want to give them the wrong impression that I am using a trump card against them
3. Most people don't know how to handle a girl crying properly. I don't want to be told "everything is ok" , "calm down, calm down", or anything that is basically "fluff" when i'm looking for someone to just hold me even if I try to thrash away from them. I want reality, not some fantasy that things will get better or be better eventually.
4. it's not lady like behavior

But yeah, basically... I know that this may be weird but I know that sometimes I can be intimidating when my Feelings go into overdrive, even so I just feel like a stray cat sometimes when it comes to retracting my claws toward my S.O.


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## dasch (Dec 6, 2009)

Blissfulwish said:


> Mochi, you sound like my long lost twin o.o!
> 
> The only thing that I can't identify with is "I've been told that I always don't show an emotion but rather an "unemotional" face."
> I guess I have one of those faces where you can see what i'm thinking in my mind >_> I think sometimes when I am feeling more than one emotion, the wrong one shows on my face and it creates more tension more than necessary.
> ...


Our results are almost the same which is why we can somewhat relate to one another and cross off most of what we can relate to in our list. The test I took determines that I'm either one of the other, a low Thinker or a low Feeler. I'm starting to think I'm a share of both if that's even possible. You're not a high extrovert either and neither am I. I'm also tested as a low extrovert ranging from 50 to 60%, almost to the same range as yours so It's not surprising. 

I should've shortened that to having a poker face or a straight face if that makes sense. 
Sure I have emotions, I'm a person too!:happy:

and crying's being human. In my case, I don't cry in front of people neither do I tell people that I cried last night for example. I'd think I'd look pathetic(in my view) in front of that person. Not unless that friend knows that there's definitely something wrong by the way I'm acting today, I'm less talkative than usual and not very exciting to talk to, then I'd eventually have to spit it out or I'd be lying if I said nothing was happening. 

if I'm close to a person and I feel that he understands me, I would at least attempt to tell him my problems or why I cried that other day only if he shows that he wants to know or is interested to know otherwise forget about it.


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