# Healthy NF vs Unhealthy NF



## janeavr (Jan 13, 2014)

FearAndTrembling said:


> He was like a kid playing dress up, or in his father's suit. Again, he thought ideas were enough to carry his cause alone. But he was wrong, it also takes tactics and strategy. Which we suck at. And that is where Hitler failed.


So now I am curious. Are you saying NF's fail at this, INFJ's, NFJ's, or…? The thing is, I do a lot of delegating in my line of work. I realized a few years ago that, while I have quite a bit of technical expertise, my skill is much more in sort of organizing everyone into a coherent flock and letting the individuals do the things they're best at. I am going to hate myself for saying this, but "tell me how Hitler could have done better as an NF."


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## candiemerald (Jan 26, 2014)

FearAndTrembling said:


> *I am not at all interested in the occult & mysticism. I mean, I think the study of it is interesting, like Jung did. But I don't believe any of it.
> *
> Yes, I agree that INFJ usually work outside power structures and political apparatus. They are outsiders. They react to the world that somebody else created. bin Laden wasn't actually a boss for example, neither was Gandhi. They were more spiritual leaders. INFJ are ideas people, not strategists or technicians. And this shows why Hitler was INFJ even more. Because he tried to micromanage everything, and INFJ aren't actually good leaders. Bin Laden let the guys who had expertise, do their thing. He delegated. Hitler acted like was actually a military tactician. He wasn't. He involved himself in things way over his head. Hitler was an ideas person, who failed when he tried to implement and manage them. Like most INFJ would. We need others for that shit. And you could tell Hitler was a phony in that military uniform. It was just part of his mystique as a soldier in this grand battle. He was like a kid playing dress up, or in his father's suit. Again, he thought ideas were enough to carry his cause alone. But he was wrong, it also takes tactics and strategy. Which we suck at. And that is where Hitler failed.


Exactly: I like to study the stuff, but I don't subscribe to it much - in that way I'm almost more logical than my brother.

Good points. I know most people do agree that he's INFJ, but I tend to sympathize with INFJs, and I never did with Hitler. For instance, the way he speaks to crowds puts me off - he seems too cold, he doesn't really seem to be _connecting_ with his audience, which is always the most important thing for me. However, this is probably due to the way he is portrayed by history, my subjective way of looking at things, and my lack of knowledge. I mean to read Mien Kampf and a biography or two and see how I feel about him then.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

janeavr said:


> So now I am curious. Are you saying NF's fail at this, INFJ's, NFJ's, or…? The thing is, I do a lot of delegating in my line of work. I realized a few years ago that, while I have quite a bit of technical expertise, my skill is much more in sort of organizing everyone into a coherent flock and letting the individuals do the things they're best at. I am going to hate myself for saying this, but "tell me how Hitler could have done better as an NF."


I prefer the same thing. I like organization and order a lot. I love efficiency. I know how things should be done, and who should be doing them. But I am not actually comfortable in that role. I keep quiet. 

I'm speaking particularly of INFJ, though I don't think INFP are good leaders either. ENFJ would probably be better. INFJ are too awkward and intuitive to really be a true leader. We need a mediator to connect us to the public and the details. ENFJ are more Earthly.


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## googoodoll (Oct 20, 2013)

candiemerald said:


> I tend to sympathize with INFJs, and I never did with Hitler.


I'd be surprised if you did sympathize with him :shocked:


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## Realpeopleonly (Jan 16, 2014)

Iam am def more on the healthy side of nf more then I ever have been and iam going up and onward from here ..... An unhealthy nf is very self centred ,manipulative for self gain ,untrustworthy, controlling,depressed,lonley while being surrounded by many,lazy and lacking in levels of commitment from everything from relationships ,work,and daily thoughts .....
The key to being a healthy nf I believe is to take your hands off the wheel don't control things that are out of your control trust intuition and always try and be a better human don't lie as it always comes back to haunt u be true to self and others . Work on bettering the world and In turn you will better your self, give without expecting in return and u will experience true compassion . Let go of resentment ,fear,guilt,and anger replace these empty holes with love ........ Breath in love breath out love and help the world to be a better place rather then trying to always work against the grain


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## candiemerald (Jan 26, 2014)

googoodoll said:


> I'd be surprised if you did sympathize with him :shocked:


Hahaha! :laughing: Heaven forbid.
No, what I should have said was I almost always can understand other NFs point of view immediately, why they did something. If it was something wrong I'll think "drat. I know I would have done that in that situation, too." But I don't understand the need to take over the world and eliminate an ethnic group.


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## DustyWind (Dec 18, 2013)

Does this make Lars Von Trier an INFJ?


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## googoodoll (Oct 20, 2013)

candiemerald said:


> I don't understand the need to take over the world and eliminate an ethnic group.


He had severe daddy issues apparently, his dad was a jew?


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## candiemerald (Jan 26, 2014)

DustyWind said:


> Does this make Lars Von Trier an INFJ?


Note: empathize and sympathize are different.
As an INFJ I tend to try to see other people's point of view. Hitler didn't seem to see the Jews point of view at all?


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## janeavr (Jan 13, 2014)

DustyWind said:


> Does this make Lars Von Trier an INFJ?


Gaffe aside, I love the man's films. I watch them with my wife and she just rolls her eyes because she understands why I like them so much. That's really interesting.


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## candiemerald (Jan 26, 2014)

googoodoll said:


> He had severe daddy issues apparently, *his dad was a jew?*


Oh...I still don't think I would revenge myself upon an entire class of people just because my father and I had issues. But I'm probably underestimating myself...I should get more in touch with my dark side.


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## googoodoll (Oct 20, 2013)

candiemerald said:


> Oh...I still don't think I would revenge myself upon an entire class of people just because my father and I had issues. But I'm probably underestimating myself...I should get more in touch with my dark side.


I'm not giving you reason to sympathize with him, it just may have been the reason why he did it, i misread the tweet it wasn't his dad, it was his first love.
https://twitter.com/UberFacts/status/285343768532615168


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

candiemerald said:


> Hahaha! :laughing: Heaven forbid.
> No, what I should have said was I almost always can understand other NFs point of view immediately, why they did something. If it was something wrong I'll think "drat. I know I would have done that in that situation, too." But I don't understand the need to take over the world and eliminate an ethnic group.


Why did Darth Vader have to take over the galaxy? I have made a long post about this, but I gotta go.

I'll just give the short, short version. 



> "The psychological rule says that when an inner situation is not made conscious, it happens outside, as fate.
> 
> That is to say, when the individual remains undivided and does not become conscious of his inner opposite, the world must perforce act out the conflict and be torn into opposing halves.


-Jung

Jung believed that every person must reckon with themselves. Stare down who they really are, and accept it, or fight it. This reckoning will happen, either inside of you, or outside of you. If you don't reckon with yourself, you will reckon with the world. Reckoning with yourself is one of the hardest things to do, and most people prefer to reckon with the world. Hitler couldn't reckon with himself, so he had to reckon with the world. His inner conflict had to be played out on the world stage. 

That's why Luke Skywalker was a true hero. He faced down himself. Luke enters the cave, to face his worst fear. And of course we all know that Vader is his worst fear, and sure enough Vader appears. They fight, and Luke strikes Vader down. But when Vader's helmet comes off, it reveals Luke inside. And then we finally realize what Luke's worst fear REALLY is. Not Vader, but turning into Vader. The recognition that he was capable of being Vader. At any second. That is very important self knowledge, and the rock that Luke uses to propel him to stand against the world. Self knowledge is basis of all goodness, of all righteous action.. Reckoning with the world is easy, it is reckoning with yourself that is difficult. That is why Vader and Hitler are bad guys, and Skywalker is a good guy. He did it the hard way, the right way. 

As someone said:

*The Emperor wants to control outer space, Yoda wants to explore inner space. That's the fundamental differences between the good and the bad sides of the force.*


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## DustyWind (Dec 18, 2013)

googoodoll said:


> He had severe daddy issues apparently, his dad was a jew?


No, his father was not Jewish. Hitler's paternal grandfather probably was though. And his daddy issues stemmed from his fear that people would find out that his dad was committed in an insane asylum, hence making Hitler a carrier of a mental illness.


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## candiemerald (Jan 26, 2014)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Why did Darth Vader have to take over the galaxy? I have made a long post about this, but I gotta go.
> 
> I'll just give the short, short version.
> 
> ...


Good points. However, I find INFJs tend to explore the internal space...or is that just me?


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

candiemerald said:


> Good points. However, I find INFJs tend to explore the internal space...or is that just me?


Yes, we do. Of course we do. lol. We spend more time in our heads than in the real world. The real world is just some temporary dull thing that bothers us once in a while. It's like work or a job or something. You have to do it, or interact with it. But it's not where we want to be. I think this is why we don't like detail. Because it pulls us out of dream land and makes us focus on reality. In most cases, we can pay attention to something and still dream. Fine detail doesn't really allow that. So it frustrates us.


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## candiemerald (Jan 26, 2014)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Yes, we do. Of course we do. lol. We spend more time in our heads than in the real world. The real world is just some temporary dull thing that bothers us once in a while. It's like work or a job or something. You have to do it, or interact with it. But it's not where we want to be. I think this is why we don't like detail. Because it pulls us out of dream land and makes us focus on reality. In most cases, we can pay attention to something and still dream. Fine detail doesn't really allow that. So it frustrates us.


Yep. Sometimes I think I have an attention disorder because clutter drives me crazy - I want to see everything as a whole and cut through all the useless rubble (though I obsess over details, too).

Anyway, about Hitler: I'm probably just living in denial. Maybe I just don't like the thought that I could become as obsessively destructive as he was (generally my unhealthy tendencies don't tend that way) - repressing, as Freud would probably say  I should probably do more research on him before I make any judgements.


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## DustyWind (Dec 18, 2013)

candiemerald said:


> Anyway, about Hitler: I'm probably just living in denial. Maybe I just don't like the thought that I could become as obsessively destructive as he was (generally my unhealthy tendencies don't tend that way) - repressing, as Freud would probably say  I should probably do more research on him before I make any judgements.


Heaven forbid! I guarantee you that you will not end up like Hitler. He had a severe issue with his mental health, plus life conditioned him to be that way. Personality is one thing, the events of your life is another. Denial of the existance his father, a feeling of constant rejection, paranoia, general unhappiness, and a number of other wonderful things bothered him. 

Plus, he wore short shorts. I'm not kidding.


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## candiemerald (Jan 26, 2014)

DustyWind said:


> Heaven forbid! I guarantee you that you will not end up like Hitler. He had a severe issue with his mental health, plus life conditioned him to be that way. *Personality is one thing, the events of your life is another. Denial of the existance his father, a feeling of constant rejection, paranoia, general unhappiness, and a number of other wonderful things bothered him. *
> 
> *Plus, he wore short shorts. I'm not kidding*.


Hehe.
Yeah, I don't have a fear of becoming a Hitler. I guess the fact that if I was put in the same situation as he I could have become like him bugs me (I probably shouldn't hypothesize as much as I do). Still, obviously all of us have the ability to go bad, and I guess it's better to know how I could go bad than not.
I suppose I've always just thought that no matter how bad things got I would still retain my empathetic/compassionate instincts (Hitler obviously felt none for the Jews) - is my ego showing?


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

candiemerald said:


> Hehe.
> Yeah, I don't have a fear of becoming a Hitler. I guess the fact that if I was put in the same situation as he I could have become like him bugs me (I probably shouldn't hypothesize as much as I do). Still, obviously all of us have the ability to go bad, and I guess it's better to know how I could go bad than not.
> I suppose I've always just thought that no matter how bad things got I would still retain my empathetic/compassionate instincts (Hitler obviously felt none for the Jews) - is my ego showing?


Exactly. The first step to preventing yourself from going bad, is realizing that you are capable of going bad. The easiest people to fool, are those who think they can't be fooled.


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## candiemerald (Jan 26, 2014)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Exactly. The first step to preventing yourself from going bad, is realizing that you are capable of going bad. The easiest people to fool, are those who think they can't be fooled.


Well said my friend 

"Know thyself."


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