# The Passions of Lust and Gluttony



## periwinklepromise (Jan 26, 2015)

I'm a little confused by the passions of Lust (8) and Gluttony (7); I currently see them as too similar. Once one is assured that Lust is not explicitly sexual, and Gluttony is not necessarily material-based, they seem to involve the same basic drive. Both involve (cause?) obsessions with excess and intensity. In both types, wants and needs are easily confused. It also sounds like both are reactions to feelings of emptiness within the self. 


What are the key differences between Lust and Gluttony? 
The only thing I can think of is a directional clause. That is, that Lust forces the self out to the world, and Gluttony forces the world into the self. But does this hold true for how we conceive 7s and 8s interacting with the world?


How does one distinguish the two passions in a 7w8 and 8w7? Is it even necessary/helpful to do so?


And how are these passions different from the sexual instinct, to which the desire for intensity is frequently attributed?


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## kitsu (Feb 13, 2013)

Gluttony arises to fill/hide a sense of emptiness in the 7. To avoid feeling trapped and anxious, which would mean being faced with unpleasant things, the glutton fills it all with excitement and intensity and visions of a brighter future which detracts from the dreariness of right now. It's not about asserting one's space like it is for 8, it's more of a nervous/compulsive thing since it's rooted in fear.

Lust isn't there to fill emptiness, it's there to get revenge. 8s are deeply angry, they want to get back at the world by controlling, crushing, or taking from it. They feel like it's somehow against them and that they have to fight against it constantly which gets them on an "anger high", a substitute for the true vitality that we feel in Essence. I also don't see type 8 as confusing wants with needs, in fact as disintegrating to 5 I think they can be pretty reductive of their own needs, or at least the ones that they perceive as weak.

I can see how they're similar in a way, they're both using intensity to cover up an unpleasant feeling - for a 7 it's emptiness, for an 8 it's loss. On some level all people fill up with the artificial to cover the unpleasantly real though.


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## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

Lust means a desire to obtain a whole lot of one really great thing. Gluttony means a desire to sample a little bit of many different things. (at least thats what it means in Enneaspeak).

So gluttony would mean the need to have new things, and a multitude of things, whereas Lust wouldn't need that... it would just pursue one particular thing.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

The terms have to be redefined to make sense.

Gluttony for type 7 is a "gluttony of the mind" in the sense that they want to sample everything that life has to offer.

Here's an example (from 0:07 to 0:42 in the video).






Lust for type 8 is redefined as "excess" often in the sense of a big energy that can easily overwhelm others if it's allowed to express itself (though there are other ways that "excess" is defined as well).

Here's one way it might be experienced (from 0:54 to 1:54 in the video).


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

kitsu said:


> Lust isn't there to fill emptiness, it's there to get revenge. 8s are deeply angry, they want to get back at the world by controlling, crushing, or taking from it. They feel like it's somehow against them and that they have to fight against it constantly which gets them on an "anger high", a substitute for the true vitality that we feel in Essence. I also don't see type 8 as confusing wants with needs, in fact as disintegrating to 5 I think they can be pretty reductive of their own needs, or at least the ones that they perceive as weak.


I think you are seeing an 8 through a 6 filter. 

I get angry. I use anger, and rage as my most powerful weapon. Sure.

But Lust doesn't come when I'm angry. Lust comes when I feel good and want to LIVE!!!!!! I want to try things, I want to fuck, I want to make my heart beat, I want to LIVE and FEEL ALIVE!!!

And, maybe, that is the key. FEEL. I want to feel.

I'm invulnerable. I am in utter control of my emotions, and me. And when I'm feeling good, I want to FEEL.


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## kitsu (Feb 13, 2013)

drmiller100 said:


> I think you are seeing an 8 through a 6 filter.
> 
> I get angry. I use anger, and rage as my most powerful weapon. Sure.
> 
> ...


I'm willing to believe that, I only have a pretty elemental understanding of the type. I'm curious to hear if other 8s feel this way about lust too.


Under this angle I'm seeing why OP is having trouble telling the difference with Gluttony, because then it's really only a question of what the passion is fueled by. Though I still feel like what you describe is aggressive in some way, like maybe not in a domineering other people sense, but it's still kind of a generally combative/bulldozer attitude and I can see how it's still related to anger compared to 7, where it's really only a fear of stagnation. Or is this still tinted in 6-colored lenses?


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

That all makes sense to me. 
I go get what I want to try. I'm active at it.

I'm more aggressive than a 7 no doubt.


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## periwinklepromise (Jan 26, 2015)

drmiller100 said:


> That all makes sense to me.
> I go get what I want to try. I'm active at it.
> 
> I'm more aggressive than a 7 no doubt.


Do you also relate to Gluttony at all, due to your 7 wing?


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

kitsu said:


> I'm willing to believe that, I only have a pretty elemental understanding of the type. I'm curious to hear if other 8s feel this way about lust too.


Yes, I feel similarly though I wouldn't have used drmiller's words. It's not really about being a rage-fueled douchebag, it's about "lust for life" and wanting more of something you like to satisfy desire. 

In my life, to my conceptualization, the lust sort of exists due to the influence of the 9 and 7 wing--the 9ish parts of me are inert and resistant to being "moved" in any way...and the 7 part of me just chatters and thinks. So I have to do whatever I was doing, again, harder, more more more, because it doesn't get through to me any other way. 

Like I can have the music up full-blast going directly into my ears, and I'm just not attending. So I have to listen to it again. And then it wasn't good enough that time, so again; and I was spacing out that time, so again; my brain was chattering, I didn't hear, _do it again_; repeat ad nauseum. And even when my addled brain isn't distracting me, the experience just isn't overwhelming enough. Like I just can't be satisfied for whatever reason.

I _do_ feel like the world is against me, but on a daily basis, that's honestly just really galling and encumbering. It's not "fun" being angry, I don't get "a high"--I just need to discharge it. I don't need get back at the world by taking from it, taking comes from desire and revenge comes from violation. I think it's probably all _part_ of "lust" somehow, but it isn't central, at least to me. I _am_ highly reductive of my needs, you're right about that part--I live and travel on a shoe-string. I need hardly anything to get by. But lust is more about what I said before.

Gluttony, I won't talk about so much, since it's not my central fixation, but it really is closer to "wanting to try as many things as possible". I think in the above music scenario, a 7 would probably move on to another song rather than keep trying for the same thing fruitlessly and you, kitsu, have covered it well.


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## HermioneG (Jul 1, 2015)

Are you confused like George?


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

drmiller100 said:


> I think you are seeing an 8 through a 6 filter.
> I get angry. I use anger, and rage as my most powerful weapon. Sure.
> But Lust doesn't come when I'm angry. Lust comes when I feel good and want to LIVE!!!!!! I want to try things, I want to fuck, I want to make my heart beat, I want to LIVE and FEEL ALIVE!!!
> And, maybe, that is the key. FEEL. I want to feel.
> I'm invulnerable. I am in utter control of my emotions, and me. And when I'm feeling good, I want to FEEL.


the problem with 8s is that "control" over emotions often means "deadening". they want more and more because it takes more and more to give them a rush and make them feel much of anything. 
@periwinklepromise
basically
lust: "I'm bored, is that all you got?"
gluttony: "I have to do this and this and this and this and this...but what if I miss out on this?!"


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> the problem with 8s is that "control" over emotions often means "deadening". they want more and more because it takes more and more to give them a rush and make them feel much of anything.
> @_periwinklepromise_
> basically
> lust: "I'm bored, is that all you got?"
> gluttony: "I have to do this and this and this and this and this...but what if I miss out on this?!"


Total cred to SOM for this about an 8. I've gotten really good at being invulnerable, now I want to feel. 

For sure I have a huge dose of his definition of gluttony also.


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## HermioneG (Jul 1, 2015)

I guess I see lust as the want or desire for something. Gluttony is taking more than you need or is healthy. I lust after cake and penises. I am gluttonous when I have more cake or penises than is healthy or when I hoard them all for myself! 

I can see how both can be dangerous. I can't see how gluttony could be healthy. Lust can most definitely be healthy.


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## periwinklepromise (Jan 26, 2015)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> basically
> lust: "I'm bored, is that all you got?"
> gluttony: "I have to do this and this and this and this and this...but what if I miss out on this?!"



OH. For some reason, this clicked with me. I guess I was seeing both under the "I'm bored, is that all you got?" lense, and so couldn't distinguish between the two.

Do other 8s and 7s agree with this summation?


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

HermioneG said:


> I am gluttonous when I have more cake or penises than is healthy or when I hoard them all for myself!
> 
> .


You've had too much cock? Or is this a hypothetical situation......


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## HermioneG (Jul 1, 2015)

drmiller100 said:


> You've had too much cock? Or is this a hypothetical situation......


Hypothetical, sigh. I settle for cake!


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

periwinklepromise said:


> OH. For some reason, this clicked with me. I guess I was seeing both under the "I'm bored, is that all you got?" lense, and so couldn't distinguish between the two.
> 
> Do other 8s and 7s agree with this summation?


I agree with this delineation. There's a good video that summarizes lust perfectly and why 8 can be considered a sadistic type:





Notice the lust at the end when he keeps taunting to fight; let's fight more, more intense, more life and death, let's engage and wrestle until we are all beaten into a bloody pulp and then do it all over again! There's a search for intensity and total and true immersion. Lust is about losing yourself so completely in an action that it's the only thing you feel. You feel alive in the struggle and in the addiction. 7s have the opposite problem - they can never immerse and experience the depth because depth is scary to them. What if you go too deep and get stuck? 8 wants to go deep and then some.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Entropic said:


> I There's a search for intensity and total and true immersion. Lust is about losing yourself so completely in an action that it's the only thing you feel. You feel alive in the struggle and in the addiction. 7s have the opposite problem - they can never immerse and experience the depth because depth is scary to them. What if you go too deep and get stuck? 8 wants to go deep and then some.



wow. This really explains something to me. I wanted to sink deep quickly.

She wanted to float at the surface for a while. I kept pulling her down deeper....... she felt I was trying to drown her.........


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

drmiller100 said:


> wow. This really explains something to me. I wanted to sink deep quickly.
> 
> She wanted to float at the surface for a while. I kept pulling her down deeper....... she felt I was trying to drown her.........


Yeah, I think a 7 can experience things as "drowning" if it gets too deep though they can also decide to stick to their guns by avoiding the problem and pretending it doesn't exist in the sense that they float at the surface without daring to look down and see how deep the ocean really is.


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## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

sounds like... 


gluttony: fear of missing out on [X]; missed opportunities, experiences, etc.; a belief there is a void central to your being, and now you're trying to replace the gap with something else; a need for "movement" of any sort; a disquiet with one's internal sense of being; a running from one's own marred sense of self. 

lust: a gravitational connection to all, or only parts, of one's environment; a lack of repression--not of a central feeling, which will be heavily repressed--but in lacking the want or the ability to repress what that central feeling has become over time; an unaware buildup of emotion/energy that is in need of spending, but is always spent in all the wrong places, because it is never spent in its truer currency (re: what is truly is, or at least was, at one point in time); a need to expound, but without knowledge of what is needed to excise from oneself, because one is too far removed/has lost touch with their emotional center, which of course just re-inflates the need to further "expound".


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