# Figuring out dimensionality, weak functions and associated fears.



## Pavel (Aug 8, 2015)

To_august said:


> PoLR creativity aspect was strange though. It can work of course in a sense that experience is very personal and unique type of dimensionality, but from the POV of 4D it still will seem as falling into banalities.


It could work. Article states that this 4D thing is refined, objective, and is personal experience. It's important for creator as thing that he experienced, he knows and maybe want to discover more. Or make it more refined or find more information on it. The best way to train in something or pay attention to something important - is through creative process.


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## The Exception (Oct 26, 2010)

Based on the lists of common fears, I relate to Fi and Fe the most followed by Ne and Fe. 

I expected to relate most to Se since I type as LII.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

@To_august

I relate to Fi > Ne > Fe in this order. Whatever this may mean. 

As for Ne and Fe, I didn't relate to all of it, just a couple of them,


For Ne these are never a problem: 

_"fear that you wouldn’t be understood the way you want to be understood, or you would be understood in the wrong way;
fear of "desperate worthlessness", fear of inability to do anything or achieve anything, fear of incapacity;"_

For Fe I'm unclear on one thing;

What do you mean by _"fear to get into situations abundant in strong negative emotions or inadequate positive ones, without ability to escape such situations"_? The part that's unclear is the "inadequate positive" stuff. Explain more please.


And the Ti themes you listed, I focus on that a lot in general except for the first one in the list (no such kind of confusion or freezing), also no worry about mental abilities. So, that focus on the Ti themes may not be actual fears like for the 1D functions, I simply have a need to clarify these things and I sort out these questions on my own.

I don't at all relate to worries on Ni, Te, Si, Se. 


I also had a thought for determining which functions are 1D: 1D functions would see the 2D normative ability in others as awesome and almost envying it.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

The Exception said:


> Based on the lists of common fears, I relate to Fi and Fe the most followed by Ne and Fe.
> 
> I expected to relate most to Se since I type as LII.


Fi > Fe > Ne or what?

How do you relate to the Ne ones?


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## The Exception (Oct 26, 2010)

myst91 said:


> Fi > Fe > Ne or what?
> 
> How do you relate to the Ne ones?


*
fear of deception, uncertainty
***I don’t really fear deception that much. I do fear uncertainty somewhat in situations where there could potentially be a very bad outcome that I don’t feel equipped to handle.

fear that you wouldn’t be understood the way you want to be understood, or you would be understood in the wrong way.
***Very much so.

fear of "desperate worthlessness", fear of inability to do anything or achieve anything, fear of incapacity.
***I often worry that I haven’t accomplished much of real significance in life, that I’m just boring and ordinary, that when I die I’m just going to fade into oblivion. I worry a lot about how competent I am at something. It hurts when people think I’m incompetent at something of importance to me. 

fear of evaluation ("I shouldn’t be evaluated!").
***Of negative evaluation, yes. 

fear of own unpredictability.
***Not that much. Occasionally, I might fear emotionally losing control- like when someone is angry at me, I could do or say something I regret later. Otherwise, no. I have good self-control most of the time.

*


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

The Exception said:


> *
> fear of deception, uncertainty
> ***I don’t really fear deception that much. I do fear uncertainty somewhat in situations where there could potentially be a very bad outcome that I don’t feel equipped to handle.
> 
> ...


A lot of this sounds like enneagram type 3 worries when placed in this context, though.


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## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

myst91 said:


> @_To_august_
> For Fe I'm unclear on one thing;
> 
> What do you mean by _"fear to get into situations abundant in strong negative emotions or inadequate positive ones, without ability to escape such situations"_? The part that's unclear is the "inadequate positive" stuff. Explain more please.
> ...


I think it means exaggerated emotions of any kind. For example being loud, or obtrusive, or overly emphasize open expression of emotional aspect (these can be positive emotions too). Fe PoLR particularity isn't supposed to like it. Fe DS - not so much, I think.

Yeah, I think it is just focus on themes if we remove the "fear" word, because they basically describe traits of the element mentioned. If you don't like to do the thing listed, or think about doing it and already feel uncertain about your abilities in that area, or think right off about inability to do it, or uncertain because can't compare yourself to others in that area and how it should be done (because 1D lacks norms), then negative aspects or fears may arise.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

To_august said:


> I think it means exaggerated emotions of any kind. For example being loud, or obtrusive, or overly emphasize open expression of emotional aspect (these can be positive emotions too). Fe PoLR particularity isn't supposed to like it. Fe DS - not so much, I think.


Fe DS would only dislike it a little or what did you mean?

So inadequately positive means it's positive emotions but exaggerated so not truly positive?




> Yeah, I think it is just focus on themes if we remove the "fear" word, because they basically describe traits of the element mentioned. If you don't like to do the thing listed, or think about doing it and already feel uncertain about your abilities in that area, or think right off about inability to do it, or uncertain because can't compare yourself to others in that area and how it should be done (because 1D lacks norms), then negative aspects or fears may arise.


Yeah but this wasn't made very clear originally. Though it's basic logic that it's supposed to mean this, of course.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

The Exception said:


> *
> fear of deception, uncertainty
> ***I don’t really fear deception that much. I do fear uncertainty somewhat in situations where there could potentially be a very bad outcome that I don’t feel equipped to handle.*


*

Maybe you just have too good Ne that will easily think of bad outcomes too (and not just those, of course) 





fear that you wouldn’t be understood the way you want to be understood, or you would be understood in the wrong way.
***Very much so.

Click to expand...

I'm not seeing how this is Ne specific. Me with Ne PoLR, I don't relate to this.





fear of "desperate worthlessness", fear of inability to do anything or achieve anything, fear of incapacity.
***I often worry that I haven’t accomplished much of real significance in life, that I’m just boring and ordinary, that when I die I’m just going to fade into oblivion. I worry a lot about how competent I am at something. It hurts when people think I’m incompetent at something of importance to me.

Click to expand...

Again I don't relate.





fear of evaluation ("I shouldn’t be evaluated!").
***Of negative evaluation, yes.

Click to expand...

I don't care for any sort of evaluation.*


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## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

myst91 said:


> Fe DS would only dislike it a little or what did you mean?
> 
> So inadequately positive means it's positive emotions but exaggerated so not truly positive?


It can depend I think. Probably depends on maturity and awareness of the ego and personality. As much as Fe DS may reject or dislike it, inasmuch it can actually seek and like it, or even subconsciously provoke people to get emotional response they seek. It varies and is tricky, since it operates within a single dimension of experience, so can be very peculiar depending on that.

Positive/negative means things like laughing vs. crying for example, or excitement vs. screaming. The former is "positive", the latter is "negative". Emotions that refer to creation of "positive" atmosphere vs. emotions that refer to creation of "negative" atmospheres. Does it make sense? So, for instance, Fe PoLR can see open emotional exchange as "exaggerated" (it is exaggerated from Fe PoLR point of view), while Fe DS may actually enjoy it and find it appealing or think that's exactly the way emotions should be expressed, so everything is clear and they don't have to guess what others feel.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

To_august said:


> It can depend I think. Probably depends on maturity and awareness of the ego and personality. As much as Fe DS may reject or dislike it, inasmuch it can actually seek and like it, or even subconsciously provoke people to get emotional response they seek. It varies and is tricky, since it operates within a single dimension of experience, so can be very peculiar depending on that.


How do you relate to this yourself?




> Positive/negative means things like laughing vs. crying for example, or excitement vs. screaming. The former is "positive", the latter is "negative". Emotions that refer to creation of "positive" atmosphere vs. emotions that refer to creation of "negative" atmospheres. Does it make sense?


I know. That's rather basic. That's not what I was asking about. 




> So, for instance, Fe PoLR can see open emotional exchange as "exaggerated" (it is exaggerated from Fe PoLR point of view), while Fe DS may actually enjoy it and find it appealing or think that's exactly the way emotions should be expressed, so everything is clear and they don't have to guess what others feel.


So what does *inadequately *positive means then?


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## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

myst91 said:


> How do you relate to this yourself?


I'm not an active Fe seeker, that's for sure. If someone, while interacting with me, sets an emotional tone, I just pick it up and follow the flow they provide. I have zero abilities to "set the mood" myself, so just follow whatever others offer in this respect. It's not a conscious effort though, not something I control, it just happens this way. Low awareness it is, anyway.



> So what does *inadequately *positive means then?


Oh, guess I got what you mean now. It should be "inadequate" (without 'ly' at the end). "Inadequate" doesn't negate or diminish "positive" in any way. Emotion is still perfectly positive just expressed in an inadequate way from the Fe PoLR point of view.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

To_august said:


> I'm not an active Fe seeker, that's for sure. If someone, while interacting with me, sets an emotional tone, I just pick it up and follow the flow they provide. I have zero abilities to "set the mood" myself, so just follow whatever others offer in this respect. It's not a conscious effort though, not something I control, it just happens this way. Low awareness it is, anyway.


Out of curiosity, what kinds of emotional tones do people set? Are there unspoken social rules regarding these tones? I'm not sure if I ever notice this type of thing.


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## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

Recede said:


> Out of curiosity, what kinds of emotional tones do people set? Are there unspoken social rules regarding these tones? I'm not sure if I ever notice this type of thing.


Hm, dunno about the rules. I certainly don't think about them in terms of rules. What I mean is that, for example, someone approaches me, and begins telling something enthusiastically about a thing that happened to them, or something funny, or sarcastic, or sad, and whatever tone they offer I just follow it in a similar vein. It's toned down for sure in comparison to them, yet still the matching reaction is there.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

To_august said:


> I'm not an active Fe seeker, that's for sure. If someone, while interacting with me, sets an emotional tone, I just pick it up and follow the flow they provide. I have zero abilities to "set the mood" myself, so just follow whatever others offer in this respect. It's not a conscious effort though, not something I control, it just happens this way. Low awareness it is, anyway.


Same for me.




> Oh, guess I got what you mean now. It should be "inadequate" (without 'ly' at the end). "Inadequate" doesn't negate or diminish "positive" in any way. Emotion is still perfectly positive just expressed in an inadequate way from the Fe PoLR point of view.


I still don't follow what you mean by the Fe PoLR thinking it's inadequate, can you rephrase this?




To_august said:


> Hm, dunno about the rules. I certainly don't think about them in terms of rules. What I mean is that, for example, someone approaches me, and begins telling something enthusiastically about a thing that happened to them, or something funny, or sarcastic, or sad, and whatever tone they offer I just follow it in a similar vein. It's toned down for sure in comparison to them, yet still the matching reaction is there.


Yeah, the same.


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## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

myst91 said:


> I still don't follow what you mean by the Fe PoLR thinking it's inadequate, can you rephrase this?


I think it means just exaggerated, or too strongly expressed, or too emphatically expressed and it is inadequate in a sense that Fe PoLR may not like such strong, open expression of emotions at all, 'cause it may imply they need to emotionally respond to them and due to poor Fe they can't adequately do it.

List of fears is from the Russian source, and probably "inadequate" term doesn't fully captures what is meant in original, but that's the best way I can explain it.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

To_august said:


> I think it means just exaggerated, or too strongly expressed, or too emphatically expressed and it is inadequate in a sense that Fe PoLR may not like such strong, open expression of emotions at all, 'cause it may imply they need to emotionally respond to them and due to poor Fe they can't adequately do it.
> 
> List of fears is from the Russian source, and probably "inadequate" term doesn't fully captures what is meant in original, but that's the best way I can explain it.


Shouldn't the same be true for DS since it's also 1D? I personally don't mind strong expressions but they should be backed up by sincerity or it holds no meaning, imo. Then it's just expression for expression's sake and I don't see the purpose of that. I can't take that kind of emotion seriously because I am not even sure if they actually at some level genuinely feel that way or not. It's more of a distrust towards that person's emotional experience not being real or not, whether it is truly sincere. This mostly applies to Fe leads rather than creatives who are much better at being sincere since their Fi is demonstrative over ignoring.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

To_august said:


> I think it means just exaggerated, or too strongly expressed, or too emphatically expressed and it is inadequate in a sense that Fe PoLR may not like such strong, open expression of emotions at all, 'cause it may imply they need to emotionally respond to them and due to poor Fe they can't adequately do it.
> 
> List of fears is from the Russian source, and probably "inadequate" term doesn't fully captures what is meant in original, but that's the best way I can explain it.


OK. Though I think the difference is that Fe PoLR can't respond because they are not open to the Fe in the same way as Fe valuing types are. If they try to respond it will be by some really unnatural consciously forced way, via Te rather than Fe. But by default they don't even respond, I think. DS on the other hand may also not respond directly via Fe but via Ti instead, depending on situation. But the Fe information isn't fully rejected and Fe response -if there is one- will be less consciously calculated, not forced.





Entropic said:


> Shouldn't the same be true for DS since it's also 1D? I personally don't mind strong expressions but they should be backed up by sincerity or it holds no meaning, imo. Then it's just expression for expression's sake and I don't see the purpose of that. I can't take that kind of emotion seriously because I am not even sure if they actually at some level genuinely feel that way or not. It's more of a distrust towards that person's emotional experience not being real or not, whether it is truly sincere. This mostly applies to Fe leads rather than creatives who are much better at being sincere since their Fi is demonstrative over ignoring.


Lol funny how we see this differently... Fe leads are the more sincere emotionally in a sense, at least from my POV. Fe creatives are way too flexible and adaptable with their Fe which leads me to trust it less. In the case of Fe leads it's damn obvious that it's a real emotional experience, I can tell more easily if they are sincere or they are just trying to put on a mask etc. And that sincerity isn't about Fi, either. It's just about how well the outward expression matches with the inner dynamic emotional experience, which is still Fe, not Fi.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

myst91 said:


> Lol funny how we see this differently... Fe leads are the more sincere emotionally in a sense, at least from my POV. Fe creatives are way too flexible and adaptable with their Fe which leads me to trust it less. In the case of Fe leads it's damn obvious that it's a real emotional experience, I can tell more easily if they are sincere or they are just trying to put on a mask etc. And that sincerity isn't about Fi, either. It's just about how well the outward expression matches with the inner dynamic emotional experience, which is still Fe, not Fi.


lol, really? I never think of too much Fe that you see from leads as sincere since it often seems to be emotions for emotion's sake, and it definitely to me oftentimes, look like they are putting on a mask more so for the sake of entertainment but there is no real inner conviction to their words and their expressiveness. At best with some EIEs, I see them as trolls and I cannot take them seriously because they keep throwing around all these fancy words but it doesn't amount to anything. Even Fe creatives can pull that card and it's so easy for me to see when they are putting on a mask which I find mind-boggling since their duals do not seem to be able to do that but assume the expression must be sincere simply because they expressed at all. 

There's a lack of belief, in a sense. To use a stereotype Fe buzzword such as passion for example, means nothing to me, unless it is backed up by one's actions and conviction to be a passionate person or seeking to be a passionate person which is something I often find that Fe leads specifically err a lot on because they talk a lot about their feelings but rarely do they in actuality actually act on them or try to do something with them. I just really don't like, to me, vacuous expressions of feelings in a bubble.

Also, how do you determine whether some inner dynamic emotional experience matches the outer without an emotional conviction or belief to support that expressiveness?


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## Mr inappropriate (Dec 17, 2013)

I agree with @Entropic on Fe leads. They seem to be saying stuff because its how they see from others. Like they see being passionate is cool and fancy on internet and then they start talking about such stuff. 

However, its the same for Te leads, imo. I've seen too many Te leads or Te HA's (specifically SEEs) who just say the same things like parrots. At the same time they believe they are being logical yet they say the same things everybody says lol. There doesnt seem any kinda of real understanding in their minds about what they are talking about. Just copy paste.

Related to OP: I wonder if my story is an example of Se-Polr? (I type as LII for now, btw).

Me and a couple of friends went to a villa of a friends and were just chilling and guy fun and all. They started a pillow fight, where people get aggressive with each other and you know hand jokes and stuff. I avoided angaging and they didnt do that to me until one guy who didnt know me so well threw at my face. Then I punched him in face lol and tried to beat the fuck outta him. Because I didnt understand how what they were doing are just friendship, having fun. But other people were fine with it even if they werent enjoying it as much perhaps but I'm the only one who reacted like that.
Not sure if you guys can understand but it really seems 1-D Se and especially Polr. It maybe an atypical example for Se polr because its protrayed in opposite direction as being very soft and shit. But in real its just a very personal and twisted way of seeing Se stuff ?


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## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

crashbandicoot said:


> I agree with @Entropic on Fe leads. They seem to be saying stuff because its how they see from others. Like they see being passionate is cool and fancy on internet and then they start talking about such stuff.
> 
> However, its the same for Te leads, imo. I've seen too many Te leads or Te HA's (specifically SEEs) who just say the same things like parrots. At the same time they believe they are being logical yet they say the same things everybody says lol. There doesnt seem any kinda of real understanding in their minds about what they are talking about. Just copy paste.


Fe-lead do not hold any agenda within their Fe but accept Feeling exactly as it is and nothing else. You can say it is shallow because it does not offer any explanation. It is very exact and does not lie. Actually where they lack might be within their Ti.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

Entropic said:


> lol, really? I never think of too much Fe that you see from leads as sincere since it often seems to be emotions for emotion's sake, and it definitely to me oftentimes, look like they are putting on a mask more so for the sake of entertainment but there is no real inner conviction to their words and their expressiveness.


I guess you are looking for the Fi type of convinction, I don't. So yes it can be sincere when you don't deem it sincere.




> At best with some EIEs, I see them as trolls and I cannot take them seriously because they keep throwing around all these fancy words but it doesn't amount to anything. Even Fe creatives can pull that card and it's so easy for me to see when they are putting on a mask which I find mind-boggling since their duals do not seem to be able to do that but assume the expression must be sincere simply because they expressed at all.


Actually yeah I'm surprised at how SLEs just assume that. I don't work in that way myself.




> There's a lack of belief, in a sense. To use a stereotype Fe buzzword such as passion for example, means nothing to me, unless it is backed up by one's actions and conviction to be a passionate person or seeking to be a passionate person which is something I often find that Fe leads specifically err a lot on because they talk a lot about their feelings but rarely do they in actuality actually act on them or try to do something with them. I just really don't like, to me, vacuous expressions of feelings in a bubble.


Yes, I expect it to be backed up by actions when applicable. Not all Fe expressions are vacuous, I guess some of your view is influenced by Fe PoLR.




> Also, how do you determine whether some inner dynamic emotional experience matches the outer without an emotional conviction or belief to support that expressiveness?


Hard to say, I just can see if the expression is forced/faked/manipulative in the wrong way. The situation itself also determines it. Their actions as well, over time the consistency of what they say and do.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

Captain Mclain said:


> Fe-lead do not hold any agenda within their Fe but accept Feeling exactly as it is and nothing else. You can say it is shallow because it does not offer any explanation. It is very exact and does not lie. Actually where they lack might be within their Ti.


Yeah, Fe creatives can come closer to "lying" in terms of being less consistent.


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## Mr inappropriate (Dec 17, 2013)

Captain Mclain said:


> Fe-lead do not hold any agenda within their Fe but accept Feeling exactly as it is and nothing else. You can say it is shallow because it does not offer any explanation. It is very exact and does not lie. Actually where they lack might be within their Ti.


You have misunderstood. I implied they were being naive(stupid) not liars. :happy:


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## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

myst91 said:


> Yeah, Fe creatives can come closer to "lying" in terms of being less consistent.


I think "lying" is very poorly used here. Fe creative basically use their Fi demonstrative function as a explanation model for their Fe. Idk why you use lying but yea, lead function is like something we take very seriously and consider carefully.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

crashbandicoot said:


> I agree with @Entropic on Fe leads. They seem to be saying stuff because its how they see from others. Like they see being passionate is cool and fancy on internet and then they start talking about such stuff.
> 
> However, its the same for Te leads, imo. I've seen too many Te leads or Te HA's (specifically SEEs) who just say the same things like parrots. At the same time they believe they are being logical yet they say the same things everybody says lol. There doesnt seem any kinda of real understanding in their minds about what they are talking about. Just copy paste.


You automatically seeing it as bullshit depends on how much you value Fe for its own sake and for what it can achieve, I guess.

The same for your Te example.




> Related to OP: I wonder if my story is an example of Se-Polr? (I type as LII for now, btw).
> 
> Me and a couple of friends went to a villa of a friends and were just chilling and guy fun and all. They started a pillow fight, where people get aggressive with each other and you know hand jokes and stuff. I avoided angaging and they didnt do that to me until one guy who didnt know me so well threw at my face. Then I punched him in face lol and tried to beat the fuck outta him. Because I didnt understand how what they were doing are just friendship, having fun. But other people were fine with it even if they werent enjoying it as much perhaps but I'm the only one who reacted like that.
> Not sure if you guys can understand but it really seems 1-D Se and especially Polr. It maybe an atypical example for Se polr because its protrayed in opposite direction as being very soft and shit. But in real its just a very personal and twisted way of seeing Se stuff ?


I have a hard time seeing you as LII for now.. but we'll see. 

Your story does sound like Se PoLR of LII more than Se PoLR of EII, anyway, EII's Se is the real soft one.


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## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

crashbandicoot said:


> You have misunderstood. I implied they were being naive(stupid) not liars. :happy:


Then IEE are more naive. :happy:


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

Captain Mclain said:


> I think "lying" is very poorly used here. Fe creative basically use their Fi demonstrative function as a explanation model for their Fe. Idk why you use lying but yea, lead function is like something we take very seriously and consider carefully.


Do you not notice that I used quotation marks for that word?

We are on the same page otherwise about difference between lead and creative. Suggest a better word please.


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## Mr inappropriate (Dec 17, 2013)

Captain Mclain said:


> Then IEE are more naive. :happy:


maybe. they are not very into copying others though. :wink:


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## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

crashbandicoot said:


> maybe. they are not very into copying others though. :wink:


That is quite offensive to say. Everyone is copying their DS.


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## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

myst91 said:


> Do you not notice that I used quotation marks for that word?
> 
> We are on the same page otherwise about difference between lead and creative. Suggest a better word please.


More-open-to-interpretation?


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## Mr inappropriate (Dec 17, 2013)

myst91 said:


> You automatically seeing it as bullshit depends on how much you value Fe for its own sake and for what it can achieve, I guess.
> 
> The same for your Te example.
> 
> ...


I'm not seeing it as bullshit. Thats their natural way, Fe lead. In more general Je leads. They automaticaly assume what they see as right, desirable. Especially in young age I assume. Later, probably, they gather enough experience from their Suggestive to be more selective about what to copy. :stupid:

What has it got anything to do with achieving and/or valuing Fe ?

Come on, now ! LII is the steorotypical "bullied geek", no ? 



Captain Mclain said:


> That is quite offensive to say. Everyone is copying their DS.


I know, socionics says so.


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## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

crashbandicoot said:


> I know, socionics says so.


Also you confirmed it in your post about Fe-leads copying others. I just find it that all people are copycats. ;p


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## Mr inappropriate (Dec 17, 2013)

Captain Mclain said:


> Also you confirmed it in your post about Fe-leads copying others. I just find it that all people are copycats. ;p


No other type is than Fe-leads, is more inclined to do it, though. Every EIE I've came across talk about energy or aura. 

btw, you make me confused. My point was more or less


> ...I cannot take them seriously because they keep throwing around all these fancy words but it doesn't amount to anything...


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## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

crashbandicoot said:


> No other type is than Fe-leads, is more inclined to do it, though. Every EIE I've came across talk about energy or aura.
> 
> btw, you make me confused. My point was more or less


You just seem very one-sided thats all. :kitteh:


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

myst91 said:


> I guess you are looking for the Fi type of convinction, I don't. So yes it can be sincere when you don't deem it sincere.


Yes, I am. 


> Actually yeah I'm surprised at how SLEs just assume that. I don't work in that way myself.


What would you say the difference is? Dimensionality of Fi alone? But how do you determine that then? 


> Yes, I expect it to be backed up by actions when applicable. Not all Fe expressions are vacuous, I guess some of your view is influenced by Fe PoLR.


No, I'm aware. I speak from personal experience/perception, it may not be shared by other people and I realize that. It's actually funny watching this anime show with an ESE in it and NH dislikes this character more than I do, actually, I think. I feel mostly sympathetic towards this character though I do find her annoying she doesn't bother me much in the sense that I just overlook and ignore her, whereas NH thinks she keeps ruining the mood of the show or something like that, and how her zaniness is just overall disruptive. She seems to mostly take issue with the Ne, I think. 


> Hard to say, I just can see if the expression is forced/faked/manipulative in the wrong way. The situation itself also determines it. Their actions as well, over time the consistency of what they say and do.


So ok, you look for consistency in expression? But how can Fe be consistent? I mean, isn't the very point of Fe is that it's anything but? I remember working in a group with this EIE earlier this year and we had to map out how certain key phrases were applicable to a specific category so it was overall a very Ti kind of exercise imo, and she just didn't manage to understand anything from my perspective, pretty much. It was pure guesswork and I found it very tiring because I came to see her mind as extremely unstructured but whereas I think a Ti lead would appreciate to structure that "chaos", I don't. I don't mind if the person is an emotional person because I do appreciate emotionality from others because I'm shit at feels myself, but I do seek some kind of inner consistency in the feelings that are being expressed or whatever, like a consistent ethical framework or something like that. It's different from how ExEs are chaotic and lacking in consistency anyway, though I realize that xEEs can lack consistency too.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

crashbandicoot said:


> I'm not seeing it as bullshit. Thats their natural way, Fe lead. In more general Je leads. They automaticaly assume what they see as right, desirable. Especially in young age I assume. Later, probably, they gather enough experience from their Suggestive to be more selective about what to copy. :stupid:
> 
> What has it got anything to do with achieving and/or valuing Fe ?


If you don't value Fe you won't see how certain things are achieved through Fe.




> Come on, now ! LII is the steorotypical "bullied geek", no ?


Read up on the differences between -Se PoLR and +Se PoLR, instead of these crappy stereotypes.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

Entropic said:


> What would you say the difference is? Dimensionality of Fi alone? But how do you determine that then?


That too, yes but not just Fi. SLE for sure focuses much more on Fe over Fi compared to me, not that I care much about Fi but at least it's not a complete blind spot to me. If I think what the Fe creative is doing doesn't fit the Fi social norms in a realistic way (some Ti may contribute here), I will notice that, e.g. Fe creative trying to close the distance too fast. Also SLE doesn't look for logical consistency of situations over time (3D Ti only, not 4D), while I use that a lot to determine if things are OK. I basically follow everything someone says and does and will notice if things don't match up somewhere.




> So ok, you look for consistency in expression? But how can Fe be consistent? I mean, isn't the very point of Fe is that it's anything but?


I don't mean this one in a logical sense, more like, I can see it's not going to change every single second just to adjust to whatever other agenda, it's taken more seriously as that, as it's inert and absolute and not overly creative, I guess. Just as Captain Mclain said. (Post #45)




> I remember working in a group with this EIE earlier this year and we had to map out how certain key phrases were applicable to a specific category so it was overall a very Ti kind of exercise imo, and she just didn't manage to understand anything from my perspective, pretty much. It was pure guesswork and I found it very tiring because I came to see her mind as extremely unstructured but whereas I think a Ti lead would appreciate to structure that "chaos", I don't.


Yeah, I wouldn't mind fixing that. 

What was pure guesswork to you?




> I don't mind if the person is an emotional person because I do appreciate emotionality from others because I'm shit at feels myself, but I do seek some kind of inner consistency in the feelings that are being expressed or whatever, like a consistent ethical framework or something like that. It's different from how ExEs are chaotic and lacking in consistency anyway, though I realize that xEEs can lack consistency too.


I actually see ExI as more consistent in Fi than the xEE's... I guess what you are looking for is just the emotionality being personalized enough and in that personalization it would be true to itself or something like that? Even if otherwise it'd appear overly flexible from my viewpoint. I understand Fi only on a basic level and I can easily notice it in Fi egos but otherwise it's quite a foreign perspective to me so that's why I'm uncertain there about how you experience looking for Fi.


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## Mr inappropriate (Dec 17, 2013)

myst91 said:


> If you don't value Fe you won't see how certain things are achieved through Fe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Which are ... actually what ? Never heard of such and i think i value Fe over Fi.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

crashbandicoot said:


> Which are ... actually what ? Never heard of such and i think i value Fe over Fi.


Search for PoLR threads here where they describe the difference between Se PoLR of LII and EII.

The "you" was a general you.


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## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

Entropic said:


> Shouldn't the same be true for DS since it's also 1D? I personally don't mind strong expressions but they should be backed up by sincerity or it holds no meaning, imo. Then it's just expression for expression's sake and I don't see the purpose of that. I can't take that kind of emotion seriously because I am not even sure if they actually at some level genuinely feel that way or not. It's more of a distrust towards that person's emotional experience not being real or not, whether it is truly sincere. This mostly applies to Fe leads rather than creatives who are much better at being sincere since their Fi is demonstrative over ignoring.


Yes, it can be true in a sense. As I mentioned it's not an axiom, or a cast-iron rule, and greatly depends on personal experience and self-awareness. DS Fe also may have the same fears, but, for example, it may have a different focus, as in actually wanting to respond adequately to Fe, but feeling that it's their weak area, and fearing they won't be able to do it and be on the same level as people, who have strong Fe.

I don't think Fe is insincere. It's only insincere if the person is. It's in the same vein as, Ne is silly, or Te can't think for themselves. Emotions are just that, emotions, they can be sincere and can be insincere, but the former is not the sole property of Fi, and the latter is not the sole property of Fe. I think Fe valuing quadras can be described in terms of emotions as ones who during interaction just pay attention to emotional tones and atmospheres, seek to influence them, enjoy them, seek them, want to get emotional response from others and exchange it between people. It's important part of communication for them. While, Fi valuing quadras, think it's something secondary, unimportant, and what is more important is the deep personal connection, psychological distance, relationships they have with people, and they don't mind if outward emotional aspect is absent from the communication completely. They just don't think about it as if it were something important or desirable. They hold other things in higher regard. That's the difference between the two, I think. Sincere-insincere are subjective/biased terms imo.



myst91 said:


> OK. Though I think the difference is that Fe PoLR can't respond because they are not open to the Fe in the same way as Fe valuing types are. If they try to respond it will be by some really unnatural consciously forced way, via Te rather than Fe. But by default they don't even respond, I think. DS on the other hand may also not respond directly via Fe but via Ti instead, depending on situation. But the Fe information isn't fully rejected and Fe response -if there is one- will be less consciously calculated, not forced.


Yeah, I agree. Fe PoLR responding through Te makes sense. It's like they can try consciously calculate how they are expected to respond. Can you say more on what you meant by DS responding through Ti? I relate to the last part - if there is any emotional response, it's automatic. I'm not trying to be polite, or thinking about how to emotionally respond, or what is expected of me. Response just naturally happens, without conscious control.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

To_august said:


> Yeah, I agree. Fe PoLR responding through Te makes sense. It's like they can try consciously calculate how they are expected to respond. Can you say more on what you meant by DS responding through Ti? I relate to the last part - if there is any emotional response, it's automatic. I'm not trying to be polite, or thinking about how to emotionally respond, or what is expected of me. Response just naturally happens, without conscious control.


Yeah that unconscious automaticity sounds like your Fe is in vital ring 

Btw I agree with the rest of what you said about Fe in your post

As for the Ti response, it just means you logically evaluate and make sense of what the other person is saying/doing and this will also be factored in your response.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

To_august said:


> I don't think Fe is insincere. It's only insincere if the person is. It's in the same vein as, Ne is silly, or Te can't think for themselves. Emotions are just that, emotions, they can be sincere and can be insincere, but the former is not the sole property of Fi, and the latter is not the sole property of Fe. I think Fe valuing quadras can be described in terms of emotions as ones who during interaction just pay attention to emotional tones and atmospheres, seek to influence them, enjoy them, seek them, want to get emotional response from others and exchange it between people. It's important part of communication for them. While, Fi valuing quadras, think it's something secondary, unimportant, and what is more important is the deep personal connection, psychological distance, relationships they have with people, and they don't mind if outward emotional aspect is absent from the communication completely. They just don't think about it as if it were something important or desirable. They hold other things in higher regard. That's the difference between the two, I think. Sincere-insincere are subjective/biased terms imo.


At some level yes, but at some level no. I understand that what Fe types think of sincerity it's more related to the strength of expression so the stronger the expression the more genuine or sincere it is, but I don't evaluate sincerity of expression that way. I also think it is equally wrong to say that Ne is never silly or Se is never forceful in the same vein, because the question here imo, isn't what they are, but how they are perceived to be in the eyes of the other. Therefore claiming that an IE are never these things is also inaccurate because it is an accurate perception of that person who is experiencing that IE. It's like saying that Ti is never nitpicky; perhaps that is so for a Ti-valuing type, but for a Ti PoLR, Ti can certainly come across as being nitpicky. 

That is simply true to their experience and to devalue that an IE is never these things is inaccurate because while there may be no objective property that makes Ne itself silly, it is certainly experienced as silly by certain people and therefore silliness becomes a property of Ne, even if that property is something applied rather than something intrinsic.

I for example this entire disagreement here could be attributed to differences in IE values for example and stating so would imo, not be an in accurate observation of the situation.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

myst91 said:


> That too, yes but not just Fi. SLE for sure focuses much more on Fe over Fi compared to me, not that I care much about Fi but at least it's not a complete blind spot to me. If I think what the Fe creative is doing doesn't fit the Fi social norms in a realistic way (some Ti may contribute here), I will notice that, e.g. Fe creative trying to close the distance too fast. Also SLE doesn't look for logical consistency of situations over time (3D Ti only, not 4D), while I use that a lot to determine if things are OK. I basically follow everything someone says and does and will notice if things don't match up somewhere.


So that makes you uncomfortable if it goes too fast? 



> I don't mean this one in a logical sense, more like, I can see it's not going to change every single second just to adjust to whatever other agenda, it's taken more seriously as that, as it's inert and absolute and not overly creative, I guess. Just as Captain Mclain said. (Post #45)


Tbh, I am not sure if I follow at all. 



> Yeah, I wouldn't mind fixing that.
> 
> What was pure guesswork to you?


Essentially, it was akin to her pulling out notes from a hat and hoping it'd be the right one because she had no clue wtf she was doing or why and she kept commenting on how I seemed to know what I was doing compared to her which I found even further disheartening since I found her to be overly unproductive; I wish she would at least have tried to contribute on her own instead of entirely relying on me to do all the work in the group we were in (we were working in pairs). I mean, at some level if you keep doing it of course you're gonna guess it right at least once but from that point of view it was not a very enjoyable experience and because I'm task-oriented, I have no interest to per se explain the entire process from the ground-up. I expect people to follow the rules laid out for the assignment as I found them fairly straight-forward. Overall I found our work relationship very stressful, I think, because I felt she was just entirely unreliable and I didn't like that. 



> I actually see ExI as more consistent in Fi than the xEE's... I guess what you are looking for is just the emotionality being personalized enough and in that personalization it would be true to itself or something like that? Even if otherwise it'd appear overly flexible from my viewpoint. I understand Fi only on a basic level and I can easily notice it in Fi egos but otherwise it's quite a foreign perspective to me so that's why I'm uncertain there about how you experience looking for Fi.


Sure, ExI is more consistent due to role Ti and I can find that base Fi can get a bit oppressive after a while like it's just too much. I like the flexibility of the creative more. Yes, I do like it personalized but I find that Fi egos still have their own Fi systems they follow in how they gauge the relationship development of a situation but that Fi creative does it more based on the situation. 3D incorporates a normative level though, and norms are inert in the sense that they are applied universally or it wouldn't be a norm. 3D Fi knows how to apply norms to different situations instead of applying the same norm across all contexts which is what makes 2D really inflexible, imo. If I learn that X behavior is rude in situation A, I'll think the same behavior is rude in all other situations that resembles A. 

I think at some level it's unfair to say that Fi has no system because it does, but it does not do it based on logic, simply. It seeks consistency in relationships as opposed to logic. 

I guess that's kind of what I was trying to say before. ExEs don't do that either since Fe is dynamic over static.


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## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

Entropic said:


> At some level yes, but at some level no. I understand that what Fe types think of sincerity it's more related to the strength of expression so the stronger the expression the more genuine or sincere it is, but I don't evaluate sincerity of expression that way. I also think it is equally wrong to say that Ne is never silly or Se is never forceful in the same vein, because *the question here imo, isn't what they are, but how they are perceived to be in the eyes of the other*. Therefore claiming that an IE are never these things is also inaccurate because it is an accurate perception of that person who is experiencing that IE. It's like saying that Ti is never nitpicky; perhaps that is so for a Ti-valuing type, but for a Ti PoLR, Ti can certainly come across as being nitpicky.
> 
> That is simply true to their experience and to devalue that an IE is never these things is inaccurate because while there may be no objective property that makes Ne itself silly, it is certainly experienced as silly by certain people and therefore silliness becomes a property of Ne, *even if that property is something applied rather than something intrinsic*.
> 
> I for example this entire disagreement here could be attributed to differences in IE values for example and stating so would imo, not be an in accurate observation of the situation.


Yes. This. The bolded parts are exactly what I see differently. If application of the property depends on the point of view of the person who observes the given element, it bears no true significance in terms of describing the element for me. It's like such bias makes elements sort of unequal or skewed and it doesn't feel right or just. Don't think I see any element in negative light by default, but as you said, this might be difference in how we approach this issue due to different valued IEs.


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## Typhon (Nov 13, 2012)

What can I say? I relate totally to the ID Fi. I relate to Se, Fe, and Si somewhat as well. I feel like Se and Fi and are desires, whereas Fe and Si are stuff I try to avoid.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

Entropic said:


> At some level yes, but at some level no. I understand that what Fe types think of sincerity it's more related to the strength of expression so the stronger the expression the more genuine or sincere it is


Lol what? That's not what sincerity of expression depends on whatsoever, no, not on the strength of it.




Entropic said:


> So that makes you uncomfortable if it goes too fast?


Not uncomfortable per se; more like I don't find it realistic and I may even find the person doing that untrustable.




> Tbh, I am not sure if I follow at all.


Hard to explain better than that.




> Sure, ExI is more consistent due to role Ti


No, not due to role Ti, because I was talking about Fi specifically.




> and I can find that base Fi can get a bit oppressive after a while like it's just too much. I like the flexibility of the creative more. Yes, I do like it personalized but I find that Fi egos still have their own Fi systems they follow in how they gauge the relationship development of a situation but that Fi creative does it more based on the situation.


Sure that makes sense.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

myst91 said:


> That too, yes but not just Fi. SLE for sure focuses much more on Fe over Fi compared to me, not that I care much about Fi but at least it's not a complete blind spot to me. If I think what the Fe creative is doing doesn't fit the Fi social norms in a realistic way (some Ti may contribute here), I will notice that, e.g. Fe creative trying to close the distance too fast. *Also SLE doesn't look for logical consistency of situations over time (3D Ti only, not 4D), while I use that a lot to determine if things are OK. I basically follow everything someone says and does and will notice if things don't match up somewhere.*


Ahh, is that what that is? This could well be the missing time dimension (in my case). I'm not able to like track people's actions/expressions over time to see if they are inconsistent. I also have problems like, I cannot remember what I did in previous instances with Ti (e.g. troubleshooting/deep-diving problems) and too often repeat the same mistakes or go through the same trial-and-error process time and time again. I often rediscover the same solutions over and over again, only to find documentation of that solution that I wrote 3 months ago but could not remember. Even in my own thread I would contradict myself several days/weeks apart and not notice while you would notice.

And yeah that psychological distance/closeness kinda stuff is more or less a blind spot to me, lol, I might be able to tell how close I am to someone at some point in time but cannot tell if that has changed - I can actually get kinda neurotic about it at times (has it changed? has it not? are we growing apart? etc.) This is the root of the problems I have in close relationships - at a superficial/distant level I'm fine, it's with forming close relationships that I struggle. I always attributed that to not-good Fe but it looks like it could indicate Fe > Fi (and possibly Fi PoLR specifically) after all. Interesting.

P.S. I know we kinda reconciled on the other forum but if you don't want to respond to me again I totally understand.
P.P.S. I changed my username from coagulate, so this is still the same person. lol
P.P.P.S. I'm sorry for being a jerk/asshole.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

counterintuitive said:


> Ahh, is that what that is? This could well be the missing time dimension (in my case). I'm not able to like track people's actions/expressions over time to see if they are inconsistent. I also have problems like, I cannot remember what I did in previous instances with Ti (e.g. troubleshooting/deep-diving problems) and too often repeat the same mistakes or go through the same trial-and-error process time and time again. I often rediscover the same solutions over and over again, only to find documentation of that solution that I wrote 3 months ago but could not remember. Even in my own thread I would contradict myself several days/weeks apart and not notice while you would notice.
> 
> And yeah that psychological distance/closeness kinda stuff is more or less a blind spot to me, lol, I might be able to tell how close I am to someone at some point in time but cannot tell if that has changed - I can actually get kinda neurotic about it at times (has it changed? has it not? are we growing apart? etc.) This is the root of the problems I have in close relationships - at a superficial/distant level I'm fine, it's with forming close relationships that I struggle. I always attributed that to not-good Fe but it looks like it could indicate Fe > Fi (and possibly Fi PoLR specifically) after all. Interesting.


Yes, Ti not being 4D does contribute to that Fi PoLRish issue with relationships.


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

The tea analogy, christ that was good


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## Lord Fenix Wulfheart (Aug 18, 2015)

Bump

How on earth is this discussion not stickied? I think it should at least be one of the things linked to in our sticky threads or something. 
@To_august
Dayum, but this breakdown is good. I think you did a fantastic job.

I'll read the rest of the thread responses tomorrow, see if I can add anything insightful myself.


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## Lord Fenix Wulfheart (Aug 18, 2015)

Apple Pine said:


> I can fully relate to Si only.
> 
> I don't know. It's mixing with enneagram in my mind.
> 
> ...


I think this in particular is a good question.

My take on it? I think that an INTJ 4 would be afraid of these things and yet want them at the same time. So they would stand on the outside looking in, all the time. Then they would flee from others, and internalize their fears and negative emotions instead. So an INTJ 4 would be angsty and more of a loner I'd think, which would manifest in NiFi activities like writing emo poetry or something like that. (Don't hit me INTJs, the emo poetry was a joke! Ow. That hurt...)


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## Lord Fenix Wulfheart (Aug 18, 2015)

Entropic said:


> I think this article is kind of so-so in the first place. It got some stuff right, but also a lot of stuff not so right. I for example think that 1D isn't so much a fear though of course we can experience fear due to a sense of inadequacy, as much as it is a complete de-valuing in the sense of the PoLR.
> 
> I was talking to NH the other day about how I think I tend to have a default state of not taking exaggerated emotional expressions seriously, so when people are emoting a lot but they actually mean it instead of doing it kind of knowingly tongue-in-cheek which I think Fe demonstratives tend to do it, it tends to annoy me because I think I unconsciously see it as them doing it the wrong way. That's not how you should use Fe.
> 
> So I think that dimensionality and each functional attitude is just that, an attitude. I have a hard time seeing how 1D should elicit some sense of fear. I don't fear heavy Fe environments or conversations that places value on Fe content; *it just annoys me because the rigidity of 1D makes me think that it's not the way the world ought to be like.*


Hmm...Perhaps it is more an anxiety than a fear? Like, you receive input from that function, and it is irritating or disturbing and provokes a reaction of some kind. It could be fear, it could be anger, and so on. But if it manifests into anger or fear, that would usually be after it was disturbing initially - so the initial disturbance could be anxiety. Or perhaps there is a better word for it I am not thinking of right now.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Fenix Wulfheart said:


> I think this in particular is a good question.
> 
> My take on it? I think that an INTJ 4 would be afraid of these things and yet want them at the same time. So they would stand on the outside looking in, all the time. Then they would flee from others, and internalize their fears and negative emotions instead. So an INTJ 4 would be angsty and more of a loner I'd think, which would manifest in NiFi activities like writing emo poetry or something like that. (Don't hit me INTJs, the emo poetry was a joke! Ow. That hurt...)


Well, ask @Verity.


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## ShuttleRun (Jan 5, 2017)

What's with this dimensionality... I haven't bothered with Socionics in a while.



To_august said:


> To sum the fears up:
> *
> List of common fears experienced in low-dimensional functions:
> *
> ...


I feel like I relate to Fi the most, though I am a Fe type (I'll bold the ones that I relate to).



> *Fe*
> 
> fear of being captured by strong emotions,
> fear to get into situations abundant in strong negative emotions or inadequate positive ones, without ability to escape such situations;
> ...


Not me at all, I love most of those. I only don't like overt anger, aggression and violence.



> *Ti*
> 
> confusion, insecurity and "freezing" in case you have to do something within Ti aspect, and you can’t;
> uncertainty: Do I have the right? What rights do I have? What are the rules in here? How do the rules interpret this situation?
> ...


Not really me.



> *Te*
> 
> fear of incompetence;
> fear of starting a new business;
> ...


Somewhat me.



> *Ni*
> 
> fear of non-occurrence of events;
> fear of unpredictability;
> ...


Not me at all.



> *Ne*
> 
> fear of deception, uncertainty;
> *fear that you wouldn’t be understood the way you want to be understood, or you would be understood in the wrong way;*
> ...


Not really me.



> *Si*
> 
> *fear of disease (sense of discomfort);
> [*]fear of appearance assessment;
> ...


Applies to me mostly.



> *Se*
> 
> fear of inability to stand up for oneself;
> *[*]fear of unwarranted aggression, especially from the group of people;
> ...


Not really me.

I can see that I have strong Ni Fe. I have the most neurotic Si and Fi. But this might explain why I'm not so much afraid of being rejected by masses, but more afraid of being rejected 1-on-1.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Relate to all of the fears from that list except the Si ones.

I wouldn't say it's accurate to associate fears with 1D functions because people can have fears or a feeling of uncertainty of a situation for many reasons. Also some of the fears in this list seem like things that every average person would fear. I get why they have been associated with these functions and why perhaps a type with a high dimensional function wouldn't though.

Fears are more related to the individual, including their personal experiences maybe.


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## LightYellow (Apr 22, 2018)

VERY IMPORTANT INFO:
Extraverted functions have no fear, they are pleasure seeking only. Fear is avoidant. Introversion is avoidance.

If you try to cover the fears of an extaverted function, say "Ne", then you are just covering the fears of its possible second function Ti/Fi.

Ti fears/avoids wrong logic (it solves it)

Fi fears/avoids the plan of the enemy (it blocks it)


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## 0wl (Mar 12, 2018)

I also relate to all the fears lol  I must be everything polr. But honestly the worst ones for me is most definitely Si closly followed by Fi and Te. The only one I couldn't relate to was Fe because intense emotions are all I do.


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