# Do you use wing? If so, how important do you think it is?



## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Given I've been looking more into Naranjo recently, it's been brought to my attention that most of his practitioners do not even use wings in their typing systems :shocked:

imo
- after reading up more on subtypes, I feel like they explain a lot more than I initially thought. however, I feel like it is more prevalent than Naranjo admits 
- as far as usefulness goes, I don't think wing is particularly useful in most cases. it's fun to contemplate, but unless the wing is very strong and one is struggling from it's fixation, it doesn't do much for personal growth other than explain differences between two people of otherwise the same type (I use it for this purpose because I find typing people, both real and fictional, to be extremely entertaining)
- the wing system as most people present it is a little too black/white for my tastes. I think some people have a VERY strong wing (two of my best friends, a 6w7 and an 8w7, both have very strong wings which can throw people off who are trying to type them), others (such as myself) have a little bit of both and some people barely have any influence from either wing. 

what are you thoughts?


----------



## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> Given I've been looking more into Naranjo recently, it's been brought to my attention that most of his practitioners do not even use wings in their typing systems :shocked:
> 
> imo
> - after reading up more on subtypes, I feel like they explain a lot more than I initially thought. however, I feel like it is more prevalent than Naranjo admits
> ...


Hm, I've used the wing system, but right now I'm not taking it into account as I'm trying to figure out if my current type is right or not, so in that circumstance the wings may be misleading. Anyway I agree that it seems more like a continuum than a black/white thing, as strong wings may make everything more confusing, but still the relevance is lesser compared to the main type.

So yeah it can be fun, but you won't get too much extra information if you apply that system.


----------



## Blystone (Oct 11, 2012)

No. 

Wing theory is a frivolous idea that does little more than convolute the Enneagram and confuse new comers. The more acquainted one becomes with the Enneagram, the quicker they realize there's no fundamental difference between any of the alleged wing types.


----------



## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

I don't use wings for myself usually. If I throw one out there for others on here, it's usually a 6 wing because it seems less threatening, though it's not necessarily more accurate. Wing, for me, seems more dependent on my mindset at any given time to be truthful. I honestly don't personally place too much importance on wings. The core is the core no matter what way it happens to manifest.


----------



## Dalton (Jun 10, 2013)

(I'm a newcomer, but) I use wings -- not because they seem functional, but because the tritype+wing format is the common language here. Although I haven't done enough research and soul-searching to be sure of this, I consider my 3-wing to be stronger than my 9-wing, although my core type is 1, not 4. As far as I understand as of yet, tritype and wings don't seem important. It's just whether you embody the fundamental traits of more than one type. 1w9 4w3 6w7 is slightly more palatable than 143967, but I would prefer the latter for its more honest representation of the individual. If I could go farther, I would just represent it in bar graph form, because the distance between my 1 & 4 is not the same as the distance between 9 & 6. However, the process of sharing a .jpg of your type isn't nearly as simple as the "normal" method.

This is the method that I'm considering:

* *





1 ||||||||||||||
4 ||||||||||||
3 ||||||||||
9 ||||||||
6 |||
7 ||



Of course, my opinion of Enneagram has yet to immature.


----------



## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

I find it extremely useful but not in the traditional sense.

The wings indicate to me variations in type but not influences upon personality. For example, I find 9w8 to be very different from 9w1 but not because of an 8 or 1 influence. The wing may or may not have an influence. In other words, I use the wing notation to indicate a type variation but don't take it literally as an indicator of the wing type's influence. 

Unfortunately, most people do take it literally and that's very inconsistent (the wing type may or may not have an influence) and often confusing or inaccurate.


----------



## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

enneathusiast said:


> I find it extremely useful but not in the traditional sense.
> 
> The wings indicate to me variations in type but not influences upon personality. For example, I find 9w8 to be very different from 9w1 but not because of an 8 or 1 influence. The wing may or may not have an influence. In other words, I use the wing notation to indicate a type variation but don't take it literally as an indicator of the wing type's influence.
> 
> Unfortunately, most people do take it literally and that's very inconsistent (the wing type may or may not have an influence) and often confusing or inaccurate.


What _does _​the wing mean, then? I'm not sure I understand.


----------



## Dyidia (May 28, 2010)

I don't use wings. I think most of the differences within a type come out of the type itself. Like how there's phobic 6 and counterphobic 6.

Btw, I see the difference between 9w8 and 9w1 being emphasized a lot, more than most other wing subtypes. There's probably a better name for the difference actually being seen, but I haven't really looked into it enough to say what it'd be exactly.


----------



## SharkT00th (Sep 5, 2012)

I think all types have both of their wings and seeking which wing one uses more won't lead to real discovery. The wing theory does more harm than good since I see a lot of people go on and on about how they are Type X but relate a lot to their Y wing. Certainly Type X can relate to its wings, or see traits of the wing, but if the focus is on the traits of the wing than its more probable that the wing is your type. It is easier to deal with a fixation coming form our wing rather than from our core type. On the same logic, I also put the tri-types in the same boat.


----------



## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Nonsense said:


> What _does _​the wing mean, then? I'm not sure I understand.


Sorry for the confusion. I told myself I'd stop doing that but I guess I can't help myself. The wing does mean to most people what you probably think it means. 

Most people look at an Enneagram concept and either use it or throw it out. I tend to see the concepts as pointing to something useful, just not what they're being described as pointing to.

For me (doubtful if it means the same for many other people), you aren't a type 6 and then decide whether you have a 5 wing or a 7 wing - you're either a 6w7 or 6w5. The wing doesn't identify a secondary type. It identifies your primary type variation (kind of like Naranjo uses subtypes where you're not a type but a particular subtype). I think this sort of distinction with type 6 was noticed when someone originally came up with the idea of phobic vs. counter-phobic, but that distinction doesn't work for me (people can actually alternate between the two to varying degrees). So, I just use the wing identifiers as labels to indicate to myself these variations because they often (but not always) line up with the wing distinctions people make using the traditional approach (people who identify as 6w5 often match the 6 variation that describes to me and likewise with people who identify with 6w7).

If this is confusing then just ignore it because it is in no way mainstream but only my interpretation and usage.


----------



## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

enneathusiast said:


> For me (doubtful if it means the same for many other people), you aren't a type 6 and then decide whether you have a 5 wing or a 7 wing - you're either a 6w7 or 6w5. The wing doesn't identify a secondary type. It identifies your primary type variation (kind of like Naranjo uses subtypes where you're not a type but a particular subtype).


Hmm, so basically people treat 6w5 and 6w7 as if they're separate types? Sorry if I'm still not getting it. =P

Out of curiosity, how do you see those variations? Like 6w5 vs 6w7 for example.


----------



## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Nonsense said:


> Hmm, so basically people treat 6w5 and 6w7 as if they're separate types? Sorry if I'm still not getting it. =P
> 
> Out of curiosity, how do you see those variations? Like 6w5 vs 6w7 for example.


No, people don't treat 6w5 and 6w7 as if they're separate types, I do. I don't know of any other people that do this.

Just touching on it regarding the self:

6w5 - duty, obligation

6w7 - what the other feels, thinks about me


----------



## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

enneathusiast said:


> No, people don't treat 6w5 and 6w7 as if they're separate types, I do. I don't know of any other people that do this.
> 
> Just touching on it regarding the self:
> 
> ...


I see.


----------



## Sixty Nein (Feb 13, 2011)

Dying Acedia said:


> I don't use wings. I think most of the differences within a type come out of the type itself. Like how there's phobic 6 and counterphobic 6.
> 
> Btw, I see the difference between 9w8 and 9w1 being emphasized a lot, more than most other wing subtypes. There's probably a better name for the difference actually being seen, but I haven't really looked into it enough to say what it'd be exactly.


Fast and Slow 9? I heard about the theory before, but I forgot what those types mean.


----------



## Dyidia (May 28, 2010)

Sixty Nein said:


> Fast and Slow 9? I heard about the theory before, but I forgot what those types mean.


idk either. I've not heard about fast/slow 9s. I'd have to see what it's about.

Basically I see some 9s as overtly invested in maintaining peace of mind and tending towards strong attachments which they idealize. Can be superficially mistaken for 4, what with having feelings of "longing," though with an underlying refusal to see. The fantasies/illusions buffer away reality and are defended when threatened.

The other sort of 9 I see is the one that is overtly apathetic and detached. Often appears to lack substance; blank, "hole in the soul" quality. Difficult to motivate or fluster. Has a tendency to be self-deprecating or self-doubting as a way of avoiding problems. Reality is buffered away through not getting invested.

And as with p/cp6 there's often a mixture of both tendencies in any given person with type 9, but people tend to fall into one or the other rut.


It's not a clear divide yet, as I don't know the basis of it. It *looks* like it'd be attached vs detached, but idk yet.


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> Given I've been looking more into Naranjo recently, it's been brought to my attention that most of his practitioners do not even use wings in their typing systems :shocked:
> 
> imo
> - after reading up more on subtypes, I feel like they explain a lot more than I initially thought. however, I feel like it is more prevalent than Naranjo admits
> ...


This question made me think very hard about my wing and how it came into play when I first joined the forum a while ago. I typed myself as a 4w5, after breaking away from type 9, but after interacting with other 4w5s on the forum I felt like I didn't quite fit in with their temperament. It took me a long time to really understand why, or grasp the concept of wings as firmly as I eventually did, but at some point I was told to look into 4w3 (I think @kaleidoscope was the first person who urged me to do this). 4w3 was a particularly difficult subtype for me to consider, because I attributed that type to an ex and saw a 3 wing as "undesirable" for those reasons. It "wasn't me." 

However, I have to admit that the 3 wing does alter my "4-ness", at least enough to make me different from 4s with a heavier influence of a 5 wing. I definitely don't feel the influence of my 3 wing as strongly as 4, not nearly - I think it's just a coloration; a hint of something different. I would definitely never be mistaken as a type 3. Most of type 3s qualities I can't relate to by themselves, but blending them with a 4 fits me more than incorporating the more withdrawn type 5. As much as I love the term "investigator", I can't apply it to myself in this circumstance.

I would like to think I have a little of the type 5 in me, though - however small.  I like the idea that everyone has both wing influences and one is simply stronger. I've heard someone else say that before, but haven't ever considered it. For me, wings don't play a huge role in my personality. I could probably be satisfied with just claiming to be a 4, the end, but the added layers of complication are also intriguing in explaining why certain reactions I have are different than those of other 4s.


----------



## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

I guess I use them myself, but I'll agree that they can get overused easily. And it can be easy to get focused on superficial similarities/differences. Like if you have problems telling 3w4 and 4w3 apart, for example, it might be a good idea to put wings away for a bit and just focus on the core. Yeah I don't know.

I also think not everyone has a super-pronounced wing. Both wings influences the core-type anyway.


----------



## Aha (Mar 6, 2014)

Tritype is much more useful. 

I can't be described by one enneagram only. And wings do nothing to help

Like with 4 humours, you cannot be described by one temperament. It is a mix of them. 

As for the head triad, I have almost equal 7 and 5. But 5 does not fit me because it is introverted. So I should choose between 7w8 and 5w4. The first one fits better, but it means that I do not describe myself in full detail even in tritype. So there is the integration and disintegration points. Well, now, 7 integrated to 5 and 8 disintegrated 5. Does it make my 5w4 match an effect of those connections? 

The "theory" has so much holes... They should have thought about that better. Wings are nonsense. Tritype, fivetype. Maybe system like 8:90% 7:86% 4:80% would work better (if the % is the number of type match)


----------



## Sonny (Oct 14, 2008)

As others have said, the difference between wings for 9s is significant.

Naranjo's 9s are pretty 9w1 imo, as are most of the 9s that Enneagram teachers write about.




Sixty Nein said:


> Fast and Slow 9? I heard about the theory before, but I forgot what those types mean.


Not imo, it's about 1 or 8 specifically, I've found no use in the fast/slow division.


----------



## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

Aha said:


> Tritype is much more useful.
> 
> I can't be described by one enneagram only. And wings do nothing to help
> 
> ...


Problem being, this system is not about what you look like or relate to, it's about what core identifies the bulk of your potential from this perspective. This could be determined in patterns and tendencies over time, or what holds the most weight to your existence looked at as a whole, or whatever - but there's a need for balancing subjectivity and objectivity carefully in this system that many do not seem to find, hence missing the point from one angle or the other.

I "use" wing. I find actual wing more important than people tend to give it credit for, but at the same time, people make too much of wing in all the wrong ways, with superficial perspectives and tropes.


----------

