# Thoughts on racism?



## SoSaysSunny (Oct 24, 2009)

*On Racism and "Politically Correct"*



3teal2penguin6 said:


> So, I'm an NT in the middle of a huge anxiety crisis over racism and the N word. Why the NT forum? Because I am an NT, so a generic "Racists are bad!" won't convince me... I need the logic of other NTs!


I was thinking through my answer but it appears *Azrae*l stole my thoughts before I had them ...



Azrael said:


> Of course, one must always be aware when using generalities or stereotypes that they do _not _apply universally, and therefore cannot be used to judge individuals.


There are statistical facts about groups of people but they cannot be applied to specific individuals.

Most INTPs are male (~80%) ... as a matter of fact, only one other MBTI type (INTJ) has a smaller percentage of females ... nevertheless, I am a female INTP.

So I would say that most racism and prejudice falls into the category of poor reasoning.

On the other hand, in daily life we often have to act with only partial information. We create stereotypes and generalities. So if a guy is following me down a dark alley, I get scared (regardless of race) because most violent crimes are committed by men.Do I think that all men are violent? No.
Do I think I have nothing to fear from women? No.
Does this make me prejudiced against men? No. 

I'm just being practical with the information on hand.​


3teal2penguin6 said:


> Honestly, I don't spend much time thinking about how I hate a certain ethnic group. I just spend my time thinking about how it's unfair that I'm not allowed to hate them.


Darling, you're 100% allowed to hate them ... it is just illogical ... but to us NTs, that is absolutely abhorrent ... so you're not likely to feel good about hating them.

I have an unusual background with racism ...When I was in third grade my mom got a HUD house. We fixed it up and I started going to a school where I was the only white kid (other than one wheel-chair-bound, non-verbal, Special-Ed kid). I wasn't really the object of any racism but never really fit in. The black girls liked to braid my waist-length hair. 

The only racism I saw was against the mixed-race kids. The first time I heard a person use the N-word at someone else, it was a black lady scolding a black boy for getting in a fight with me (he probably had a crush on me but I wasn't really aware of that sort of thing at the time).​My beef with being "Politically Correct" (and its enforcers) is that it doesn't bother to consider the intentions of the speaker.In college, a sweet friend of mine, head of the judicial branch of student government and a fellow physics major, had a bad brush with PC-Think. At our college there was a voluntary hazing of the Juniors by the Seniors called "capping". Your anonymous "capper", typically one of your friends, made you do silly things and dress in silly costumes, etc. 

Because she loved Marvin the Martian, my friend's capper created a make-shift costume for her to wear. It involved a giant salad bowl with yarn attached for the helmet, Marvin bedroom slippers, a Roman gladiator style "leather" skirt made of felt, and some black makeup (Marvin is jet black). She borrowed my elbow-length black gloves, added her black leotard and tights, and went to class.








She was having a great day until some black girls said they felt offended because she was wearing "black face". No one would have to tell her to take off the costume ... she was shattered and burst into tears that she could have offended anyone ... she took it all off and never said a word about it.

The Racism Free Zone group had a "community meeting" to allow people to talk about the "incident". I went and expressed my frustration that a few girls could make such a big deal about something that was CLEARLY not about race (unless, that is, you think that black folk walk around with bowls on their heads, dressed in black head-to-toe, with Marvin the Martian bedroom shoes and a felt skirt).​It is the cry of "Racism!" when it is unwarranted that drives me up the wall !

Here it is ... an hour after I was going to sign off ... 
I'm sorry I wrote so much ... this is just one of my major pet peeves ...


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## SoSaysSunny (Oct 24, 2009)

*On Fixing People and OCD*



retypepassword said:


> So... how do we go about fixing the people who are wrong? :-D


We don't. It isn't our responsibility to "fix" people and, even if it were, it woldn't work unless they wanted to be "fixed".

The best we can do is be clear in our logic and show them their fallacy. But don't expect change.



3teal2penguin6 said:


> Please de-quote me.
> 
> I have serious anxiety about this issue. I am driven to do things I am not allowed to do, even if they're things I don't want to do. It's kind of a compulsion. I have a lot of trouble with OCD.
> 
> I don't want to be an evil racist, but I don't want to have to comply with society's rules.


I am OCD.
Curious about your OCD ...
Are you on meds?
What's your fixation?
Do you think OCD is tied to personality type?
INTPs, for instance, tend to be perfectionists and see patterns / breaks in patterns.
Do you think that you observed a pattern that could have led to your racist views?​


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## zorro (Apr 9, 2010)

> She was having a great day until some black girls said they felt offended because she was wearing "black face". No one would have to tell her to take off the costume ... she was shattered and burst into tears that she could have offended anyone ... she took it all off and never said a word about it.
> 
> The Racism Free Zone group had a "community meeting" to allow people to talk about the "incident". I went and expressed my frustration that a few girls could make such a big deal about something that was CLEARLY not about race (unless, that is, you think that black folk walk around with bowls on their heads, dressed in black head-to-toe, with Marvin the Martian bedroom shoes and a felt skirt).
> It is the cry of "Racism!" when it is unwarranted that drives me up the wall !


AGREED. if a person is wrong to make incorrect assumptions based on flawed logic about another person because of the colour of their skin, surely it is just as wrong to make incorrect assumtions that a person is deliberatly behaiving in a hurtful manner just because you percieve their behaviour to be hurtfull based on your own internal flawed judgement process.
two wrongs dont make a right!

edit
unless you follow the political correctness theory


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## NeedsNewNameNow (Dec 1, 2009)

I don't think it's surprising that NTs would have problems with political correctness. As one person said, PC doesn't even take the intentions of the perp into account, it's like a form of intellectual bullying.

As for racism itself--

well, it seems that many humans are hardwired to prefer the company of our own kind. In evolutionary terms, probably a survival instinct left over from our tribal days. Not only do we prefer our own, we often fear those not like us (opposing tribes who may be after our lands, food, etc)

But this instinct doesn't just translate into racism. If you look at so many aspects of our society, you can see the dynamic at work. It's why cliques form. If you look at most political issues, you can see this "us vs them" dynamic at work. Union members vs non-union. Christian evangelicals vs others. Urbanites vs suburbanites, etc. Often each group fears a perceived threat posed by the other.

I have met very few people who show no signs of bigotry whatsoever. Even the ones who hand-wring about it the loudest often have their own groups of people that they despise b/c they believe they are the biggest threat to their ideal society. The same instinctual hatreds, it's just directed at a different group, with different lines distinguishing what separates them.

Even we as NTs.. How often have we not been accepted b/c we're 'different'? Same thing.

I'm not defending racism, or saying we have to like it. I just don't think we're ever going to see it go away, not unless these instincts have been bred out of us, and how's that going to happen?


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## zorro (Apr 9, 2010)

as for teal's initial concern about the whole issue i think what she's saying is she see's a system (political correctness) society has adopted to combat an effect/event/mindset (racism), that is now deemed incorrect/standing in the way of progress, and that system, while adressing the initial problem, just creates new inequalities. why should she adhere to the new system simply because society says you have to? 

IMO the answer is you dont have to and probably shouldnt (if only for your own sanity), however you dont actively have to promote the opposite of what that system is trying to achieve you can also try to promote the third option, the better solution by everyone. 
Rather than simply fighting against a practice you dont agree with, why not study the practice and improve it to become something you do agree with.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

As cliche as it sounds, I don't consider myself racist, but I accept I have particularly ... traditional or conservative views, and I'm probably Islamophobic -- for personal reasons (not DEM TERRISTS or anything stupid), but I wouldn't say I actively discriminated against people based on something they didn't choose. 

OTOH, I seriously do not believe in cultural relativism and generally am of the opinion that an over-arching English-speaking culture is the world's most superior cultural entity. But a white working class male born in Dagenham is no more a part of that than Baroness Warsi.

I love racist jokes and use racist language casually amongst those who I know will not be offended at it, for instance if my white friend fails to do something and I call him "the N word" then he knows I'm not being racist, it's just a term of expression.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Interesting conversation so far. The original prompt has been pretty thoroughly answered that yes, racism is illogical but being a logical thinker doesn't make one an unfeeling robot. If anything, a logical person is the most likely to rationalize and justify racism due to understanding the logical reasoning of an argument but not being able to discern from a misguided use of logic. Indeed, the intelligent youth are likely to be swayed by misguided ideals and history shows several instances, like a person with a high iq deciding to join a terrorist cell. If I'm not mistaken, Timothy McVey was a perfect example, as he was a highly intelligent person but his views were twisted by anti-government propaganda and hate speech which eventually led to him blowing up buildings. The Columbine teens would be another example of otherwise intelligent kids glamorizing violence and being pushed to shoot a school full of kids and teachers.

Another likely factor is that children can be raised to be racist from parents, community figures or from any individual with influence over impressionable minds. However, the positive is that any kind of negative behavior like racism is learned and can thus can be unlearned with enough effort. 



SoSaysSunny said:


> I have an unusual background with racism ... When I was in third grade my mom got a HUD house. We fixed it up and I started going to a school where I was the only white kid (other than one wheel-chair-bound, non-verbal, Special-Ed kid). I wasn't really the object of any racism but never really fit in. The black girls liked to braid my waist-length hair.
> 
> The only racism I saw was against the mixed-race kids. The first time I heard a person use the N-word at someone else, it was a black lady scolding a black boy for getting in a fight with me (he probably had a crush on me but I wasn't really aware of that sort of thing at the time).


Your experiences were unusual indeed. I think it's important to realize though that mixed race children from black and white couples are unfairly stigmatized due to a long history of animosity between the two races in the US. The mixed race stigma isn't universal among all races though. Where I live, there are several half asian and half caucasian children and if anything, they're accepted by both race groups.

In the US, most overt forms of racism have been fairly well addressed due to advancements in civil rights. However, institutionalized racism, is a whole 'nother can of worms.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Diphenhydramine said:


> As cliche as it sounds, I don't consider myself racist, but I accept I have particularly ... traditional or conservative views, and I'm probably Islamophobic -- for personal reasons (not DEM TERRISTS or anything stupid), but I wouldn't say I actively discriminated against people based on something they didn't choose.


unleashthehounds addressed this. It's an evolutionary trait from tribal times. The "us" versus "them" mentality is an evolutionary mechanism to ensure survival of the group. Unfortunately, society has evolved much more quickly than biology has and fearing people who are different (or in your case, having Islamophobia) is almost instinctual. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that, as the world isn't a safe place and that adaptation makes you someone who desires to protect a group. However, you may benefit from re-centering your views on what constitutes your "group" and perhaps not limiting it to just race.



> OTOH, I seriously do not believe in cultural relativism and generally am of the opinion that an over-arching English-speaking culture is the world's most superior cultural entity. But a white working class male born in Dagenham is no more a part of that than Baroness Warsi.


I agree that cultural relativism has a fundamental problem due to its self-defeating nature but you're making an assumption that popularity proves superiority which itself is a logical fallacy.



> I love racist jokes and use racist language casually amongst those who I know will not be offended at it, for instance if my white friend fails to do something and I call him "the N word" then he knows I'm not being racist, it's just a term of expression.


Yes, it does make you a racist. That doesn't put you on the same level as someone that kills black people due to hatred of the race, so it may not make you an extreme racist but in my opinion, it does make you a mild racist.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

MisterNi said:


> unleashthehounds addressed this. It's an evolutionary trait from tribal times. The "us" versus "them" mentality is an evolutionary mechanism to ensure survival of the group. Unfortunately, society has evolved much more quickly than biology has and fearing people who are different (or in your case, having Islamophobia) is almost instinctual. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that, as the world isn't a safe place and that adaptation makes you someone who desires to protect a group. However, you may benefit from re-centering your views on what constitutes your "group" and perhaps not limiting it to just race.


 I don't limit what my "group" is on race at all; I believe I stressed that my distinctions fall into religious or cultural grounds. Anyway I reject that the "Us and them" mentality has no basis. It does. There are substantive differences between cultures that allow us to make distinctions between us and them. The tribe that lives in huts is not the same as the tribe that lives in suburbs. I don't care for fuzzy language about world unity. It doesn't, can't, and won't exist. 



MisterNi said:


> I agree that cultural relativism has a fundamental problem due to its self-defeating nature but you're making an assumption that popularity proves superiority which itself is a logical fallacy.


 It's not the most popular culture, though, so I don't know where you got this from, or why you thought that I assumed that it was, or why you thought I assumed that popularity = superiority. 



MisterNi said:


> Yes, it does make you a racist. That doesn't put you on the same level as someone that kills black people due to hatred of the race, so it may not make you an extreme racist but in my opinion, it does make you a mild racist.


 If you say so.

Wrong time to mention I own a Rhodesian flag and a CSA battle flag?


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Diphenhydramine said:


> I don't limit what my "group" is on race at all; I believe I stressed that my distinctions fall into religious or cultural grounds. *Anyway I reject that the "Us and them" mentality has no basis. It does. There are substantive differences between cultures that allow us to make distinctions between us and them.* The tribe that lives in huts is not the same as the tribe that lives in suburbs. I don't care for fuzzy language about world unity. It doesn't, can't, and won't exist.


I'm not saying there's absolutely no basis, I was trying to say there are reasons to segregate but I just don't agree with them because I don't find them to be very reasonable but that's just my opinion. I'm not the kind of person that thinks there's ever going to be global unity, but I'd love to be proven wrong about that. 



> It's not the most popular culture, though, so I don't know where you got this from, or why you thought that I assumed that it was, or why you thought I assumed that popularity = superiority.
> 
> If you say so.


Ah, I used the word popular in the sense that it's the English language is the most wide-spread which means it's the most popular. I was trying to say that popularity != superiority but at the same time, I was saying you may be right about cultural relativism not being 100% accurate.



> Wrong time to mention I own a Rhodesian flag and a CSA battle flag?


Well, I can't comment about owning a Rhodesian flag, but owning a Confederate flag is controversial to say the least. :tongue:


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## SoSaysSunny (Oct 24, 2009)

*On the Confederate Flag and the Civil War*



MisterNi said:


> Well, I can't comment about owning a Rhodesian flag, but owning a Confederate flag is controversial to say the least. :tongue:


I'm no racist but I am a _Daughter of the American Revolution_ and one of the _United Daughters of the Confederacy_.

The Confederate flag is not necessarily a racist flag ... just as the American flag is not an anti-British flag ...

It is a historical heritage ...


The vast majority of Confederates didn't own slaves and slavery as a whole was already on the decline ...


They fought for states' rights, a battle still raging today in the health care debate ...


They fought against a distant government telling them how to live, the same reason the Revolution was fought.
 Don't get me wrong: Slavery is an awful thing and should never exist ... But it _was_ the way the world worked back then.


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

retypepassword said:


> She wants a logical, well reasoned-out proof that racism is bad. Without a good, logical reason, she feels that her freedom to express herself is stifled because she believes she's been indoctrinated with the idea that racism is bad. She's also saying that the reasons MLK, Jr. gives in my signature's quote are inadequate because just doing the right thing without a logical reason isn't good enough for her.
> 
> @3teal2penguin6: Sorry if it sounds like I put you or your post in a negative light. Totally unintentional; just trying to be informative.





3teal2penguin6;361701[B said:


> ]Alright, now I am starting to regret posting. I feel evil. Oh my god. Pinkrasputin, please delete the quote. I am terminating this thread[/B].


Okay, but you do understand I have been quoted and later referred to as well. So first you will need to ask retypepassword to take off my quote as well as it is a response to your OP. 

In addition, I will eventually have to take off my latter posts as well, since they won't make sense either. I think a few people's responses were pertaining to original OP. But oh well. 

But yes, I could completely censor and remove myself from this entire thread if that will put you at ease. 

What happened to closing this thread? Do you need my help asking?


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## Blackbeard (Mar 13, 2010)

I can't say that I have come across a lot of racism, other from within my own race. To get a understanding of what I'm talking about, I live in the "hood" or "ghetto", but my personality greatly differs from mostly every black person I have met. Some can just let me be, but then the rest is always criticizing the way I dress, talk, what music I listen to etc. Every time I come to a disagreement about anything with some from my area I always get hit with "you ain't a hood *****, so you don't get it" while I understand just fine, I just think most of my people could do better, but they simply just don't want in fear of not being a "real *****". 

Me? I love everybody, even the ones who scorn me for being different. I have had relationships ended simply because the girls parents didn't like me...because I was black. I think if people would move past the color and look inside at a person's true value then issue's such as race wouldn't matter. I am a shinning example of not all black people are into the same way of thinking, so I know there are people of all races who think as I do. I really don't look at a race anymore, I look at the person as a human being. So even if a black, white, hispanic etc person is racist I don't think of saying all of their race is racist, but as human beings they are just narrow minded humans. I love all people!


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## TreeBob (Oct 11, 2008)

You cannot delete your messages after responses have been given. I will issue warnings next time. Post closed as the OP asked.


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