# Part III: Psychopathy & Empathy



## Parrot

_*This is part III. Feel free to discuss this particular topic, independent of Parts I & II. Those links are at the bottom. The purpose of this thread is to debate if psychopathy serves a purpose and the pros and cons of empathy._

Harken back to art class and the color wheel, with this metaphor. My emotions are perhaps in 8 different colors. I've noticed that normal people have many different colors. A common theme I've read from self-described psychopaths is that they believed the emotional exchange was faked and a game. A person couldn't possibly care that much, but it was what people do in society and I was expected to do it too. That is why I am Drunk Parrot. A parrot copies the words of its owner, but doesn't necessarily understand what they mean. Parrots are not dumb, but the depth of saying "I love you" is lost on a parrot. Drunk refers to the normative state of enthusiasm that I exist in. It also describes the depressant qualities that alcohol plays on the brain. For the most part, I am numb. I do not feel much. When I drive an hour to work, I drive in silence. I am mostly in my mind and I do not have many different moods. Rather, I wake up pretty consistently content unless I feel excitement about the day.

Do psychopaths intentionally disregard empathy and morals?



> So far, the dominant understanding of psychopathy was that they basically lack emotions such as fear or distress. If you clap your hands behind someone’s back, she will startle, and you can measure how her palms get sweaty. If you do that with individuals with psychopathy, experiments have shown that their response is flattened. They barely startle and their hands stay dry. Now imagine, if you had never felt real fear or distress, how could you empathize with the fear or distress of others?
> Empathy is key to our normal moral development. As kids, we are told not to hurt others, and we are told not to speak with our mouth full. Kids quickly come to feel very different about violating these two types of rules. Empathy is what makes the difference. Each time you hurt someone, that person’s distress becomes your pain, and you start to associate your vicarious pain with harming others. Violence then starts to feel intrinsically bad. Helping others, on the other hand, makes you feel their happiness, and will start to feel good.
> If you were to lack empathy, this would never happen. Hurting others would leave you numb, and be as trivial as eating with your mouth full - just another convention. In that case, the only reason for doing neither would be fear of punishment – not guilt or compassion. If such an unempathic man would be alone in a dark alley with an attractive women and no one to punish him what would stand in the way of his lust?
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-empathic-brain/201307/inside-the-mind-psychopath-empathic-not-always


I have, at times, delighted in hurting someone else. Maybe it's the ENTP side, but the pain I inflicted was more through words or non-violent actions. Mostly, however, I am completely unaware if I am causing others pain. If someone does something offensive, I get over it quickly. How can empathize with people, Fi & Fe users in particular, who hold onto a grudge or stay in their feelings? I've noticed that most people have trouble with empathy, anyways. Te wants to get things done and does not empathize with Fe who thinks they're being rude, or Fi who thinks Te is mean. I've read that empathy is a skill, of some sorts. A highly empathetic person tries to experience a wide range of emotions and can thus empathize with a variety of people. This is my understanding, anyway. Most of my friends are Te & Ti users, so I'm not expected to be too empathetic, as being rational and objective is more valued.

Still, Empathy appears to go much deeper than that. Most people it seems, feel guilt, although in different levels. One of the universal displays of empathy is the guilt from killing someone. I remember reading that in the history of war, most fighters were simply trying to survive and protect their fellow soldier. It was something like only 20% of rifles were ever fired, and even melee combat had fewer casualties than I would have expected. I guess that across all cultures, and all people, empathy is the one thing that unites people as humans. I think it is a beautiful thing, and I respect those who are truly empathetic. I might even consciously try to not hurt a kind-hearted person, although I have done so, probably more than I even realize. I do not feel guilt beyond slight disappointment in myself. In Part I, I describe life as a game, and I'm trying to win points for being "good", as it's Fable III. I actually do play video games, that often, as I don't find them as immersive as normal people do. After all, I live in a game, so I don't need to escape or distract myself with them, although I enjoy them from time to time.

With a "path", there's a reason they might ruin your life. It could be because you impeded them, challenged them, or even for their amusement. Obviously, the more narcissistic a "path" is, the high chance that they are irrational or deranged. The average sociopath or psychopath, however, is trying to survive and get what they can or want from the world. If you ignore one, they ignore you. *Quick Tip: Do not ever challenge a Sociopath or Psychopath unless you're willing to do what it takes to win.* If you're lucky, they might be high-functioning, like me, and be more likely to let it go. Even then, there are certain things that demand a response, from me, and I will not be provoked. With a low-functioning one, if you poke a wild animal, it will attack. I can sympathize and say "yeah, it sucks" when they unleash consequences, but it would not have happened if it was left alone. 

One of the traits of psychopathy is "callousness" towards others emotions. If you were color blind, would you not be annoyed if people made fun of you for it? (_Note: People who are color blind are not psychopaths, it is just an analogy_). Now imagine if being colored blind had serious ramifications like being socially ostracized. The natural response for psychopaths is callousness, because explaining that you cannot feel other's emotions is akin to admitting you're not human. The other response is to hide it. That is the reason we must wear a mask, because we need others to accept us in order to survive. Of course, if everything is going smoothly, I actually enjoy the company of friends and I like people. But when life or a situation is on edge, survival mode kicks in and I must do whatever it takes to manipulate the situation so that I am not revealed nor harmed. If I am, though, callousness is what's rational. When being jeered or condemned, it is a harsh feeling. I've never had a prison sentence, nor run afoul with the law. But I have been fired, before, or accused of being a heartless jerk. When cover is blown, the natural response is apathy. A psychopath is quick to accept consequences, internally. That is because the rational mind sees the writing on the wall and has already accepted the fate. It is why you see emotionless faces, from a psychopath criminal, when sentenced to life or death. I can empathize with that subtle feeling. It's basically a feeling that the world demands penance and the best way to respond is defiance displayed as apathy; ie "You will not break me". But why not just feel guilty? I cannot, that's why. Honestly, I wouldn't mind if I could feel guilty, as I'm not _proud_ of the fact. But cannot and I don't know how to. The closest I can feel to remorse is regret. 

I am critical of empaths, though. With their wonderful ability to connect and build others up also comes their power to "turn it off" and destroy someone. They do it in the name of morals, but I do not see how they are better for it. Many people expect others to follow the "rules". They cannot stand the idea that some people do not think the "rules" apply to them. Reality check, you're not going to be able to call me up to talk to the "path" and rationalize with him. You have to be aware, yourself, because laws might apply to everyone, "social norms" are not followed by everyone. Write a blog, cry to your friends, listen to Def Jam, whatever. It is your fault for being emotional; you suffer, they get revenge. Example: Someone cuts you off in traffic. You speed up and cut them off. Turns out they're a sociopath who responds by running you off the road. They get away, and you're in the hospital. You might demand justice! (Looking at you type 1s ;p) Empaths rally to each other and tell you that the guy is an asshole and going to hell. Yet, are you not accountable for cutting him off back? As I said, I appreciate Empathy and the depth that it provides people in life. I just find it to be highly inconsistent.

What I fear most about empathy, is it how quick it can shut off. Empathy seeks to emotionally sync with others, which unites people as human. Yet, I have watch countless news stories of someone that was deemed to be unworthy of empathy. Whether it was Ray Rice hitting his wife or the CEO of Mozilla who donated money to Prop 8. The mass of noble empaths decides someone is unworthy of their precious empathy. I'll admit that I am bitter, because of this. Why should I even try to be kind to the very people who are capable of destroying someone's life. In the past, the town could gather to execute someone. It's probably a psychopath, sociopath, or dutiful ISTP  who does the killing, but the crowd watches, flips off their empathy, because someone does not deserve it. I'm not clamoring against the death penalty, but rather I'm pointing out the inconsistency with which people display empathy. The only people I respect, as far as their empathy goes, is the one who empathizes with the unempathizable.

I am not religious, but I do believe God might exist. I even believe it is probable that life is more than just meaningless. By that, I mean a soul exists. I grew up Baptist, so that belief has been ingrained in me even if I reject most of it. Even so, I respect the man that is Jesus, in the Bible. It is oddly comforting that he could die for the world, including me. Yet, God can send people to hell without feeling remorse. Genesis says "Let us make man in our image". If this is true, then I believe both empathy and psychopathy are divine traits, on opposite ends of the spectrum. I am but human, but psychopathy is part of the human experience. I fear Hell, yet I accept it is the fate I deserve. I am callous, but I wish it was not my fate. Still, how could I love God if I cannot love my fellow man? The Hidden Suffering of the Psychopath | Psychiatric Times

I have read that a psychopath is incapable of empathy; That is not true. All people are capable of empathy, but they can only feel what they've felt, before. It is why Former alcoholics run AA and rape victims become counselors to other rape victims. Personally, I would like to someday become a therapists for psychopaths and others in Cluster B. In Part II, I mentioned the few deep feelings I've ever experienced. What I value most is to see into someone's soul. This quote is from Ender's Game and is my favorite quote:


> “In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love him. I think it’s impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves. And then, in that very moment when I love them.... I destroy them.”


Most emotions that normal people feel seem unnecessary, to me. The depth of feeling that comes from despair or self-actualization, however, is beautiful to me. When a person is broken and full of despair, then empaths can be there to build the person up. But there are moments when a person denies the darkness and clings to the lie of their false ego. The role of psychopathy, the purpose of what I am, is to break the person (Note: I'm not suggesting psychopaths should go out murdering and robbing people). If God exists, then that is why psychopaths exist. Maintaining a wonderful life is not the path to enlightenment. A muscle grows after tearing first. Your soul cannot grow unless it has first been broken. If you have been seriously hurt by a psychopath/sociopath/narcissist, then wrap yourself up in the pain. Contemplate it, brood on it, become it...then release it. Only through real suffering can real joy be experienced. Because, if it isn't real, then I don't care nor respect it.

http://personalitycafe.com/general-...psychopathy-machiavellian-ism-narcissism.html
http://personalitycafe.com/critical-thinking-philosophy/656250-part-ii-removing-mask.html


----------



## castigat

This doesn't sound a single bit abnormal to me.

I guess that depends upon how one defines "abnormal" and within what parameters.


----------



## Evolvenda

I find you most interesting! 
There is no progress without sacrifice. Pain and suffering are cruel parents, but effective teachers. 

I am new to this, so I was wondering have you ever experienced bloodlust? I can't find much information on this. Have you ever thought or fantasized about slicing the carotid arteries of a beautiful neck and watch the blood come out in squirts based on the systolic pressure, and then revelling in the gore? Or something along those lines?


----------



## Metalize

birdie borracho does it again

i fucking love this text, so much black and white pixelated electrons glaring flaring burning staring into my eyes, which are also electrons, so it's like we're superconnected

psychopath is the predator and empaths are the juiciest prey

^.^





Make no mistake. I would fix or eliminate them all, had I the opportunity. There is no God here, no reason, no purpose, nothing but a vessel with which to extract the maximal amount of pain.


----------



## Parrot

Rydark said:


> I find you most interesting!
> There is no progress without sacrifice. Pain and suffering are cruel parents, but effective teachers.
> 
> I am new to this, so I was wondering have you ever experienced bloodlust? I can't find much information on this. Have you ever thought or fantasized about slicing the carotid arteries of a beautiful neck and watch the blood come out in squirts based on the systolic pressure, and then revelling in the gore? Or something along those lines?


I have had that metallic taste in my mouth, but it is rare. As my tritype suggests, 9w8 has me mostly avoid anger. I have considered murder when angry, but ultimately, I think I'd screw it up and I find there is little value in being a murderer. It is not a fantasy, for me, although it is for some. I find murder or torture to be pathetic. Any coward can tie someone up and torture them to death. I do not respect those people. What I have fantasized about, is being in the thrill of battle. If I were to kill a man, I'd want a fight, on the field of battle, and die to go to Valhalla. Haha, actually I met a guy at the bar who called himself Psycho "Nick" or something like that. He told me he worships the Old Gods and said "Thor Motherfucker". It was amusing, but slightly horrifying that this guy could kidnap me and sacrifice me in the name of an obsolete deity.
@castigat really, not abnormal at all?


----------



## Parrot

Metasentient said:


> birdie borracho does it again
> 
> i fucking love this text, so much black and white pixelated electrons glaring flaring burning staring into my eyes, which are also electrons, so it's like we're superconnected
> 
> psychopath is the predator and empaths are the juiciest prey
> 
> ^.^
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Make no mistake. I would fix or eliminate them all, had I the opportunity. There is no God here, no reason, no purpose, nothing but a vessel with which to extract the maximal amount of pain.


You sound like a good time. Do go on, this is good stuff.


----------



## Metalize

Drunk Parrot said:


> You sound like a good time. Do go on, this is good stuff.


I agree empaths are annoying, hypocritical, and unnecessarily needy sometimes; however, that example of petty revenge could happen with anyone. Actually, someone on the "high" end of empathy probably wouldn't engage the other person since they're more inclined to let it slide. A more aggressive/domineering temperament would likely engage. The idea of using social connections/cohesion to launch an attack on someone is also something that is stereotypically associated with ASPDs, to my knowledge.


----------



## Metalize

Why do ASPDs like me so much?


----------



## Parrot

Metasentient said:


> I agree empaths are annoying, hypocritical, and unnecessarily needy sometimes; however, that example of petty revenge could happen with anyone. Actually, someone on the "high" end of empathy probably wouldn't engage the other person since they're more inclined to let it slide. A more aggressive/domineering temperament would likely engage.


That best part about this reply is how you went from seemingly deranged to focused and logical haha.



> The idea of using social connections/cohesion to launch an attack on someone is also something that is stereotypically associated with ASPDs, to my knowledge.


Sure, if we're talking a smear campaign or a drive by. What I'm referring to is when the moral mob seeks out an "evil-doer" to execute them. The modern day example is outcry on social media for someone to lose their job. Then again, I consider a single "oops, my B" is good enough to get out of things. If someone stabbed my foot and then said 5 minutes "Hey remember when I stabbed your foot, I didn't mean that". I'd be like "Ya know, we all make mistakes." If they then stabbed by other foot, I'd then have to learn to walk on my hands so I could go to them to bite their ankles.


----------



## Metalize

umm can i put that in my sigg

yess okay


----------



## castigat

Drunk Parrot said:


> @_castigat_ really, not abnormal at all?


What am I trying to compare it to when it comes to "abnormal"?
On an intellectual level, I understand why society might balk at it because psychopathy could, in principle, be "detrimental" to society, but otherwise I don't understand why it _should_ be demonized. I hear or read about these things and the first (and main/major) response I have mentally is ". . .and?" I don't mean that to devalue anyone's experiences, but I have a hard time fully understanding why a person should see a huge problem with these things, i.e. a reason why to see someone who is also a human being as a callous, heartless bastard. (On a core, fundamental level.)

Another reason is because on some levels, I see your point. "Callousness", "turning off" one's empathy (and the fear involved with that), the fact that emotions seem unnecessary, the beauty of despair and self-actualization (the entire spiel about that actually), etc.


----------



## Metalize

Castigat has very nice points that it's a shame I can't comprehend bc el stupido


----------



## castigat

Metasentient said:


> Castigat has very nice points that it's a shame I can't comprehend bc el stupido


Elaborate on this and I might be able to change gears a bit lol.


----------



## Metalize

oh haha i realized you said something before that i didn't read, so i had to reread that


----------



## Parrot

Metasentient said:


> oh haha i realized you said something before that i didn't read, so i had to reread that


I won't accuse you of being ASPD, but you are the type of person who responds to people without quoting or mentioning them.
@castigat that is the reason I can live peacefully with people like you, but the world is filled with different temperaments. I have been studying Enneagram, mostly to learn how to apply it in the real world. If I recognize someone's type, I know their core motivations and can manipulate them, although my main goal is to avoid unnecessary conflict. Life sucks when people hate you. I once went to a camp, in HS, and came off as arrogant and phony. By the end of it, most of the people didn't like me. It doesn't bother me much, now, but humans are social creatures. I have presented myself as high-functioning Asperger's at work, because Asperger's people are seen a victims while psychopaths are predators. I, and they, are neither, but perception is reality.


----------



## castigat

Drunk Parrot said:


> I won't accuse you of being ASPD, but you are the type of person who responds to people without quoting or mentioning them.
> 
> @_castigat_ that is the reason I can live peacefully with people like you, but the world is filled with different temperaments. I have been studying Enneagram, mostly to learn how to apply it in the real world. If I recognize someone's type, I know their core motivations and can manipulate them, although my main goal is to avoid unnecessary conflict. Life sucks when people hate you. I once went to a camp, in HS, and came off as arrogant and phony. By the end of it, most of the people didn't like me. It doesn't bother me much, now, but humans are social creatures. I have presented myself as high-functioning Asperger's at work, because Asperger's people are seen a victims while psychopaths are predators. I, and they, are neither, but perception is reality.


.
Yeah, like I said, I understand the intellectual reasons as to why these things are seen as abnormal. Perception is reality and preconception is king; anyone can listen to whatever a person tells them, especially if it's fed to them in their own resonance; "psychopath" has a negative connotation in itself and tends to make people think of serial killers because correlation is obviously causation. . .etc. lol

It's a bit like why I can't fathom how some people just can't do math. I come along these things I don't understand and have a burning need to ask every question necessary to understand it (or sit there ruminating on it for ages). I suppose I am just unwilling to accept that even I might be an outlier in the ways in which I view and analyze emotion and morality (and the world at large), although I do know it contributes heavily to my neutral response to things others might see as strange or (god forbid) "abnormal", as in this thread.


----------



## redneck15

Drunk Parrot said:


> Life sucks when people hate you. I once went to a camp, in HS, and came off as arrogant and phony. By the end of it, most of the people didn't like me. It doesn't bother me much, now, but humans are social creatures. I have presented myself as high-functioning Asperger's at work, because Asperger's people are seen a victims while psychopaths are predators. I, and they, are neither, but perception is reality.


Is that your Fe that makes you not like people hate you? Because I've known Te people who are normal average guys who don't care if certain people hate them. At work, say. It's not even that they're hurt deep down, they don't care. They really do care about not being listened to and being ignored because they are sometimes ham-handed by applying a hammer to every problem, which is as annoying as anything I've ever seen, and they are usually hurt deep down over this, but it comes out way more with certain people. Like an SO. I don't see this coming out with people they have a right to boss, like at work. 

I'm assuming you don't see Te as psychopathic, lol. Because they so aren't. I've known some Te people to be very fragile and weak on the inside, like an eggshell. 

And if psychopaths are as you say, they kind of are predators. Because the thing that makes someone aligned with the group is a certain empathy. Common kinship. If they lack this, they are free to lash out at the group or its members at any time for no good reason, i.e. hurt, and generally be unpredictable. Wouldn't they basically be the perfect tactician? Not strategist because too short term. It isn't good enough to say that you have good intentions when those could realign at any time. For example, if you ran into a guy with a suitcase with a million dollars, wouldn't tactics tell you to take it at all costs? Because you'll never have better odds to get successful fast. But empathetic considerations are meant to slow something like that down so that people in society aren't constantly turning on one another over trivial reasons. Being part of society is what makes you different from a predator.

I kind of don't think I'm the kind of person you're outlining here. I can understand your world, but it isn't mine. Because to me it doesn't make sense, what gives you a reason to live? Not being offensive, but the world you are showing is dark and hopeless, like how Darwininism paints a picture of life from the outside as the survival of the few, without showing you all the bright parts experienced from the inside. If I was in that state of mind, I don't think I could take it. I'd toss everything over and start over as someone else. 

Is this really what your mind feels like inside? Kind of like Light in Death Note minus the Narcissism that lead him to want to be God? I think it has to be a projection, not a constant. What _I _said was a projection I was encouraging because I thought it was going to make me logical, but _you_ made it sound horrible and like a crab, so I've had to start over. I can imagine that it's kind of like you are in an evil trance which you need to be woken out of.


----------



## Shroud Shifter

Drunk Parrot said:


> _*This is part III. Feel free to discuss this particular topic, independent of Parts I & II. Those links are at the bottom. The purpose of this thread is to debate if psychopathy serves a purpose and the pros and cons of empathy._
> 
> Harken back to art class and the color wheel, with this metaphor. My emotions are perhaps in 8 different colors. I've noticed that normal people have many different colors. A common theme I've read from self-described psychopaths is that they believed the emotional exchange was faked and a game. A person couldn't possibly care that much, but it was what people do in society and I was expected to do it too. That is why I am Drunk Parrot. A parrot copies the words of its owner, but doesn't necessarily understand what they mean. Parrots are not dumb, but the depth of saying "I love you" is lost on a parrot. Drunk refers to the normative state of enthusiasm that I exist in. It also describes the depressant qualities that alcohol plays on the brain. For the most part, I am numb. I do not feel much. When I drive an hour to work, I drive in silence. I am mostly in my mind and I do not have many different moods. Rather, I wake up pretty consistently content unless I feel excitement about the day.
> 
> Do psychopaths intentionally disregard empathy and morals?
> 
> 
> 
> I have, at times, delighted in hurting someone else. Maybe it's the ENTP side, but the pain I inflicted was more through words or non-violent actions. Mostly, however, I am completely unaware if I am causing others pain. If someone does something offensive, I get over it quickly. How can empathize with people, Fi & Fe users in particular, who hold onto a grudge or stay in their feelings? I've noticed that most people have trouble with empathy, anyways. Te wants to get things done and does not empathize with Fe who thinks they're being rude, or Fi who thinks Te is mean. I've read that empathy is a skill, of some sorts. A highly empathetic person tries to experience a wide range of emotions and can thus empathize with a variety of people. This is my understanding, anyway. Most of my friends are Te & Ti users, so I'm not expected to be too empathetic, as being rational and objective is more valued.
> 
> Still, Empathy appears to go much deeper than that. Most people it seems, feel guilt, although in different levels. One of the universal displays of empathy is the guilt from killing someone. I remember reading that in the history of war, most fighters were simply trying to survive and protect their fellow soldier. It was something like only 20% of rifles were ever fired, and even melee combat had fewer casualties than I would have expected. I guess that across all cultures, and all people, empathy is the one thing that unites people as humans. I think it is a beautiful thing, and I respect those who are truly empathetic. I might even consciously try to not hurt a kind-hearted person, although I have done so, probably more than I even realize. I do not feel guilt beyond slight disappointment in myself. In Part I, I describe life as a game, and I'm trying to win points for being "good", as it's Fable III. I actually do play video games, that often, as I don't find them as immersive as normal people do. After all, I live in a game, so I don't need to escape or distract myself with them, although I enjoy them from time to time.
> 
> With a "path", there's a reason they might ruin your life. It could be because you impeded them, challenged them, or even for their amusement. Obviously, the more narcissistic a "path" is, the high chance that they are irrational or deranged. The average sociopath or psychopath, however, is trying to survive and get what they can or want from the world. If you ignore one, they ignore you. *Quick Tip: Do not ever challenge a Sociopath or Psychopath unless you're willing to do what it takes to win.* If you're lucky, they might be high-functioning, like me, and be more likely to let it go. Even then, there are certain things that demand a response, from me, and I will not be provoked. With a low-functioning one, if you poke a wild animal, it will attack. I can sympathize and say "yeah, it sucks" when they unleash consequences, but it would not have happened if it was left alone.
> 
> One of the traits of psychopathy is "callousness" towards others emotions. If you were color blind, would you not be annoyed if people made fun of you for it? (_Note: People who are color blind are not psychopaths, it is just an analogy_). Now imagine if being colored blind had serious ramifications like being socially ostracized. The natural response for psychopaths is callousness, because explaining that you cannot feel other's emotions is akin to admitting you're not human. The other response is to hide it. That is the reason we must wear a mask, because we need others to accept us in order to survive. Of course, if everything is going smoothly, I actually enjoy the company of friends and I like people. But when life or a situation is on edge, survival mode kicks in and I must do whatever it takes to manipulate the situation so that I am not revealed nor harmed. If I am, though, callousness is what's rational. When being jeered or condemned, it is a harsh feeling. I've never had a prison sentence, nor run afoul with the law. But I have been fired, before, or accused of being a heartless jerk. When cover is blown, the natural response is apathy. A psychopath is quick to accept consequences, internally. That is because the rational mind sees the writing on the wall and has already accepted the fate. It is why you see emotionless faces, from a psychopath criminal, when sentenced to life or death. I can empathize with that subtle feeling. It's basically a feeling that the world demands penance and the best way to respond is defiance displayed as apathy; ie "You will not break me". But why not just feel guilty? I cannot, that's why. Honestly, I wouldn't mind if I could feel guilty, as I'm not _proud_ of the fact. But cannot and I don't know how to. The closest I can feel to remorse is regret.
> 
> I am critical of empaths, though. With their wonderful ability to connect and build others up also comes their power to "turn it off" and destroy someone. They do it in the name of morals, but I do not see how they are better for it. Many people expect others to follow the "rules". They cannot stand the idea that some people do not think the "rules" apply to them. Reality check, you're not going to be able to call me up to talk to the "path" and rationalize with him. You have to be aware, yourself, because laws might apply to everyone, "social norms" are not followed by everyone. Write a blog, cry to your friends, listen to Def Jam, whatever. It is your fault for being emotional; you suffer, they get revenge. Example: Someone cuts you off in traffic. You speed up and cut them off. Turns out they're a sociopath who responds by running you off the road. They get away, and you're in the hospital. You might demand justice! (Looking at you type 1s ;p) Empaths rally to each other and tell you that the guy is an asshole and going to hell. Yet, are you not accountable for cutting him off back? As I said, I appreciate Empathy and the depth that it provides people in life. I just find it to be highly inconsistent.
> 
> What I fear most about empathy, is it how quick it can shut off. Empathy seeks to emotionally sync with others, which unites people as human. Yet, I have watch countless news stories of someone that was deemed to be unworthy of empathy. Whether it was Ray Rice hitting his wife or the CEO of Mozilla who donated money to Prop 8. The mass of noble empaths decides someone is unworthy of their precious empathy. I'll admit that I am bitter, because of this. Why should I even try to be kind to the very people who are capable of destroying someone's life. In the past, the town could gather to execute someone. It's probably a psychopath, sociopath, or dutiful ISTP  who does the killing, but the crowd watches, flips off their empathy, because someone does not deserve it. I'm not clamoring against the death penalty, but rather I'm pointing out the inconsistency with which people display empathy. The only people I respect, as far as their empathy goes, is the one who empathizes with the unempathizable.
> 
> I am not religious, but I do believe God might exist. I even believe it is probable that life is more than just meaningless. By that, I mean a soul exists. I grew up Baptist, so that belief has been ingrained in me even if I reject most of it. Even so, I respect the man that is Jesus, in the Bible. It is oddly comforting that he could die for the world, including me. Yet, God can send people to hell without feeling remorse. Genesis says "Let us make man in our image". If this is true, then I believe both empathy and psychopathy are divine traits, on opposite ends of the spectrum. I am but human, but psychopathy is part of the human experience. I fear Hell, yet I accept it is the fate I deserve. I am callous, but I wish it was not my fate. Still, how could I love God if I cannot love my fellow man? The Hidden Suffering of the Psychopath | Psychiatric Times
> 
> I have read that a psychopath is incapable of empathy; That is not true. All people are capable of empathy, but they can only feel what they've felt, before. It is why Former alcoholics run AA and rape victims become counselors to other rape victims. Personally, I would like to someday become a therapists for psychopaths and others in Cluster B. In Part II, I mentioned the few deep feelings I've ever experienced. What I value most is to see into someone's soul. This quote is from Ender's Game and is my favorite quote:
> 
> Most emotions that normal people feel seem unnecessary, to me. The depth of feeling that comes from despair or self-actualization, however, is beautiful to me. When a person is broken and full of despair, then empaths can be there to build the person up. But there are moments when a person denies the darkness and clings to the lie of their false ego. The role of psychopathy, the purpose of what I am, is to break the person (Note: I'm not suggesting psychopaths should go out murdering and robbing people). If God exists, then that is why psychopaths exist. Maintaining a wonderful life is not the path to enlightenment. A muscle grows after tearing first. Your soul cannot grow unless it has first been broken. If you have been seriously hurt by a psychopath/sociopath/narcissist, then wrap yourself up in the pain. Contemplate it, brood on it, become it...then release it. Only through real suffering can real joy be experienced. Because, if it isn't real, then I don't care nor respect it.
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/general-...psychopathy-machiavellian-ism-narcissism.html
> http://personalitycafe.com/critical-thinking-philosophy/656250-part-ii-removing-mask.html



You are a good writer, I give you that. And you make a compelling case that you know what you are talking about. I would like to ask you a question.

I have met a lot of people in my life I would call "psychopathic" myself, even "high-functioning" in the sense that they are not overtly criminal. Typically they have made a lot of effort to create this image of themselves as a pillar of the community - a religious family man, goes to church every Sunday and is the president of every local social committee, a real stand-up guy, often even a bit overplayed, almost like a parody character of sorts, a mockery of what a stand-up guy really represents for them. But when you get to know them a little better, some things will bleed through, no matter how hard they try to hide it. Things like how they essentially consider everyone they meet a sucker or a fool, and how they take so much pride out of getting something for free.

Someone like me is inclined to forgive them many of these faults, mainly because they make such an interesting conversationalists. They have a wonderful systemic intelligence, they know how things work and immediately figure you out so they are not trying to sell you stuff you're not interested in. Only thing that seems lacking is their ability to understand how others may see them, or how easily others can see through their crap sometimes. And consequently their severe underestimation of just about everyone in their lives.

But then comes the mind-boggling part, at least to me. At some point in their lives many of these people get overwhelmed by this strange urge to completely wreck their lives in a matter of a few frenzied seconds. "Let's whip out the ol' johnson and wiggle it in front of this 15-year old girl in a public beach in the middle of the day." "Let's steal a small sum of money (which I don't need) from my employer in the most obvious way possible." "Let's get rip-roaring drunk and drive our car into the side of the police car in the middle of the parking lot of the local police station." You get the picture - always something with little to no benefit to the perpetrator, but the maximum damage to their lives and careers, especially considering the time and effort they have spent honing that silly mask of theirs. Their lives will be completely devastated, even if the legal repercussions remain small, their families, their careers will be blown to bits. So they will move in another town far away, where they will again spend years trying to rebuild what they destroyed. They might not ever amount to what they had previously (because word spreads around) but they may get close, mainly because of their superb people skills. Until the urge hits to wreck it all again.

So my question is why? Why do they do this? Is it just so hard to keep on the mask and play the (grossly exaggerated) parody character they have created for themselves for eternity?


----------



## Parrot

Shroud Shifter said:


> You are a good writer, I give you that. And you make a compelling case that you know what you are talking about. I would like to ask you a question.
> 
> I have met a lot of people in my life I would call "psychopathic" myself, even "high-functioning" in the sense that they are not overtly criminal. Typically they have made a lot of effort to create this image of themselves as a pillar of the community - a religious family man, goes to church every Sunday and is the president of every local social committee, a real stand-up guy, often even a bit overplayed, almost like a parody character of sorts, a mockery of what a stand-up guy really represents for them. But when you get to know them a little better, some things will bleed through, no matter how hard they try to hide it. Things like how they essentially consider everyone they meet a sucker or a fool, and how they take so much pride out of getting something for free.
> 
> Someone like me is inclined to forgive them many of these faults, mainly because they make such an interesting conversationalists. They have a wonderful systemic intelligence, they know how things work and immediately figure you out so they are not trying to sell you stuff you're not interested in. Only thing that seems lacking is their ability to understand how others may see them, or how easily others can see through their crap sometimes. And consequently their severe underestimation of just about everyone in their lives.
> 
> But then comes the mind-boggling part, at least to me. At some point in their lives many of these people get overwhelmed by this strange urge to completely wreck their lives in a matter of a few frenzied seconds. "Let's whip out the ol' johnson and wiggle it in front of this 15-year old girl in a public beach in the middle of the day." "Let's steal a small sum of money (which I don't need) from my employer in the most obvious way possible." "Let's get rip-roaring drunk and drive our car into the side of the police car in the middle of the parking lot of the local police station." You get the picture - always something with little to no benefit to the perpetrator, but the maximum damage to their lives and careers, especially considering the time and effort they have spent honing that silly mask of theirs. Their lives will be completely devastated, even if the legal repercussions remain small, their families, their careers will be blown to bits. So they will move in another town far away, where they will again spend years trying to rebuild what they destroyed. They might not ever amount to what they had previously (because word spreads around) but they may get close, mainly because of their superb people skills. Until the urge hits to wreck it all again.
> 
> So my question is why? Why do they do this? Is it just so hard to keep on the mask and play the (grossly exaggerated) parody character they have created for themselves for eternity?


Brilliant question and the answer does not have to make empirical sense for it to make sense. The answer lies in the beauty of life. For others, it might be the American/typical dream of family, friends, career, etc. For me, there is such beauty in both building a dream and destroying it. There's a certain amount of power that comes with knowing that I can destroy or create what I've built as well as what others have built. While a normal person does see any person in such annihilation, I see beauty in it. I have abruptly quit a job, told my Aunt to go fuck herself, and driven blackout drunk for a hour drive. In the last example, I was completely willing to destroy my life by wrecking or getting pulled over. Of course, I am glad neither of those happened, but there exists certain brief states where destruction is beautiful. 
I think these moods and consequent assumption of other's moods are strong, yet temporary. I can make a wild claim about @URLteenth and later admit I might be incorrect. The potential fallout or realization that I should "feel" bad is tertiary to me. Life contains so many moments of uncertainty that I either grab popcorn to watch or I hop right into the scene and cause havoc. To answer URL, life might seem depressing at times, but there is another power that motivates me and others life me: defiance. Sometimes, people get caught in expecting traditional reactions that they forget that not everyone is bound by the same rules. I can feel absolutely miserable, one moment, but then fart and laugh because it smells so bad. Speaking of which, I farted, not too long ago, and was disappointed that nobody else could smell that absolute wretchedness that came from my butt. Whether it's the simple things, like that, or contemplating the vastness of the universe, I am under no obligation to be miserable because life _might _lack meaning. 

That lack doesn't even guarantee it does. When I go to work, I can run into one of my coworkers who is an ESFP type 2. Maybe she changed her hair? I can tell her I love it or I don't like it and know that my statement can influence her entire day. At this moment, I will probably tell her I love it (or tell her I like something about her look) just because her happiness is useful, to me. I might even live vicariously through her happiness, although I can hop off at any time or just simply forget I told her that, the next day. It is highly inconsistent yet so hilarious, to me. The knowledge that I can influence so many aspects of other people's lives, unbeknownst to them is comical, simply because others allow everyone else to do the same. The difference, with a psychopath life me, is I'm not scripted. Everyone else seems to be, in my observation. When I know someone's MBTI, Enneatype, and instinctual variant, I find so much of what they do to be predictable. I'm not suggesting that people don't think for themselves, but rather their thoughts often conclude what I'd expect them to conclude, although I'm occasionally surprised.

To me, that is the purpose I serve in life; to shake things up. The world does not admit it, but we keep things exciting. Taking out my johnson and wagging it at a 15 year old is such a wonderful way to say "Betcha didn't see that coming!" Some people are horrified while others might be secretly amused. The 15 year old will get over it, or she might be traumatized and become a little slut or a lesbian. I don't know, although I probably won't ever do that. People like the idea that someone will go off script, but they never want to be the ones who do it. It is why movies and shows that feature psychopaths often have such good ratings, because people are captivated by someone who does not follow conventional rules.

Hell, I might even join a cause or a group. In Julius Caesar I love the part about "Hail Caesar, we who are about to die salute thee!" I could totally see myself being in the Legion and charging to my death. I'd be willing to fight and die, for a larger than life cult of personality. Why not? But if I saw Caesar fall, on the battlefield, and saw my fellow soldiers begin to surrender, I'd quickly throw on some barbarian garb and learn to speak German. I will blend, adapt, and live vicariously through others because I find it so interesting and intriguing. Life might be meaningless, but it is so deep and intrinsic at the same time.

So URL & Shroudy, I am not depressed because the show must go on! Remember, life is such a wonderful game and journey that I cannot possibly be depressed about it. If I were ever sent to jail, I would learn to like sucking dick and I'd probably become the activities coordinator for the prison. I would put on a production of Romeo and Juliet where a member of Aryan nation falls for a member of the Crips. It would be beautiful, and after the show, a Latin King would come up and stab me. As I lay bleeding, I would die happy because my masterpiece was crafted and perfected, and the criminals are cheering because the show was so good AND they get to watch a guy die. Life is beautiful and I like living it that way.


----------



## redneck15

Drunk Parrot said:


> Hell, I might even join a cause or a group. In Julius Caesar I love the part about "Hail Caesar, we who are about to die salute thee!" I could totally see myself being in the Legion and charging to my death. I'd be willing to fight and die, for a larger than life cult of personality. Why not? But if I saw Caesar fall, on the battlefield, and saw my fellow soldiers begin to surrender, I'd quickly throw on some barbarian garb and learn to speak German. I will blend, adapt, and live vicariously through others because I find it so interesting and intriguing. Life might be meaningless, but it is so deep and intrinsic at the same time.


Slightly off-topic, but I love Caesar. My favorite historical figure by a long shot. Or anyways a favorite. But you don't think you'd become a genuine heart-felt convert to the cult of Caesar? Not even when he always produced the results to back it all up?


----------



## Parrot

URLteenth said:


> Slightly off-topic, but I love Caesar. My favorite historical figure by a long shot. Or anyways a favorite. But you don't think you'd become a genuine heart-felt convert to the cult of Caesar? Not even when he always produced the results to back it all up?


More like I would go along with it like a game. I'd probably never buy into the belief, but I would fight for it because "fuck it". "Fuck it" is often by excuse for doing things.

Btw, @Shroud Shifter too, my description of life is probably more how a psychopathic type 7 views life. A psychopath 3 or 8, might do things differently. Also, maybe a psychopath can be the other 6 types, too, I just have a hard time visualizing it.


----------



## Shroud Shifter

Great answer. Your style of thinking definitely rings a bell when I think of some people I've known, but never before have their inner world been explained to me in such depth. And it makes sense, in a way. Interesting read, for sure.


----------



## Parrot

Shroud Shifter said:


> Great answer. Your style of thinking definitely rings a bell when I think of some people I've known, but never before have their inner world been explained to me in such depth. And it makes sense, in a way. Interesting read, for sure.


I think our inner world is one thing we might keep censored, because we do not expect anyone to ever understand it; hence the callousness. I really don't think I could ever convey it vocally, which is why a forum like this is such a great way to represent it. My ISTP friend is the only one I can explain things to because it's like talking to a pet iguana, who just happens to be human.


----------



## Shroud Shifter

It must feel good though to have somebody you can confide at least parts of your inner world with.


----------



## Parrot

Shroud Shifter said:


> It must feel good though to have somebody you can confide at least parts of your inner world with.


It does and I only have to pay him in candy.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

You've indulged in a mischaracterization of psychopathic empathy. 

So there are broadly two kinds of empathy: cognitive (knowing/understanding the pain someone is in) and affective (appropriate emotional response to another person's pain)

Psychopaths are incapable of affective empathy, though, they can trick themselves into thinking they have it, as well as love (which needs an inherent capacity for affective empathy) if it feeds another motive. I have a good example:

_Say a guy in his teens is a psychopath has a younger brother and that younger brother is being bullied. That psychopath finds out and hits the roof. "How the FUCK dare you touch my brother?" He goes absolutely berserk defending/protecting his brother, ripping the bullies life to shreds over weeks and months of vicious attacks, all in the name of love. Of course, anybody looking at this from the outside can see there is nothing noble about what the psychopath is doing. He rationalizes his want to hurt somebody (and further, establish his dominance over his brother - like a possession) in the way normal people do. There are no normal emotions being processed here except possessive aggression and sadism (which isn't entirely a function of psychopathy, though I'll get into that another time)_

Other than in this specific scenario, even if the psychopath has experienced a pain before, he won't feel empathetic towards somebody else by virtue. This would be a function of defunct cognitive empathy (like the autistic), since it takes an enhanced 'understanding' of the pain somebody is going through before you feel it too -- the psychopath has no problem comprehending pain. There is just not feeling towards the person there. People see images of people getting hurt or cringe when watching somebody get hit in the nads. The psychopath doesn't have that same automatic cringe. If you feel empathy at that point you are not a psychopath (at least, not a primary psychopath). Autistic/psychopath misidentifications are common and I'd encourage you to read the literature online regarding it.

I'll look over your other threads tomorrow but this point in particular stood out as important.

What would really interest me is your response regarding fear. Do you ever get get your heart racing? Do you feel... vulnerable, ever? Anything make you panic?


----------



## Parrot

Occams Chainsaw said:


> What would really interest me is your response regarding fear. Do you ever get get your heart racing? Do you feel... vulnerable, ever? Anything make you panic?


I enjoy your input, although I do not necessarily think you're correct. Like I say in my first thread, this topic is not very well developed. Most research has been done on the criminal population and does not address the sub-clinical. Anyway, as far as fear, it is rare that I am ever afraid. If I've been in a dangerous situation, I more feel my instincts kick in. I guess my heart is pounding, but I'm in survival mode aka fight as opposed to flight. However, the other day, my friend was driving, we passed a car on a solid double yellow, and around the curve a truck came. I remember being disappointed that there was a truck, and my friend told me that my calm allowed him to dodge the truck and keep us safe. He said he was shaking the rest of the day although I remember it as an adrenaline rush and very exciting. I don't necessarily want to do it again but the thrill was amazing.



> Autistic/psychopath misidentifications are common and I'd encourage you to read the literature online regarding it.


I've seen articles comparing the two, specifically Aspergers, and I lean a lot more towards psychopath. 



> Psychopaths are *incapable* of affective empathy, though, they can trick themselves into thinking they have it, as well as love (which needs an inherent capacity for affective empathy) if it feeds another motive. I have a good example:


Maybe it's my Ti, or perhaps I don't want to think I'm a hopeless monster. I just find it difficult to agree with a term like "incapable". I will agree with highly unlikely, although the way you describe it makes sense. I once was in a situation where my friend was in danger of being legally bullied by this sociopath girl (She was going to claim that she hit him and call the cops). I stood my ground and kept her from doing anything that night. Nobody is going to fuck with a guy that I've invested 6 years of friendship into. But then again, out of sight, out of mind. His mom died and I remember thinking, "She sucked, anyway." I owe him some money and I'll pay it back on my time. If he died, I'd be disappointed but I wouldn't even want to go to the funeral. I would, sense he's one of my best friends, but I just don't feel as strongly about it. But that night, I would have killed for him. I guess I can cognitively relate to him and say I wouldn't want some bitch to ruin my life, and I can play the role of anti-sociopath better than most. I would have fought her, but it's probably because he's an extension of me. I think that's more narcissism than affective empathy, but it feels like "love" to me. Which means, perception is reality, so even if any "love" I feel doesn't qualify as love, it's the most I'd be capable of. Believe it or not, but a lot of self-diagnosed psychopaths are pretty disappointed by this. Everyone wants to be love, and being told we're incapable is quite depressing, even if it's true. Still, it's not depressing enough to make me or others suicidal, simply because that feeling is not strong enough to warrant action.


----------



## Rhonda Rousey

Psychopathy is biological, they have something going on with their Monoamine oxidase(enzyme that breaks down serotonin)so they can't experience joy or positive emotions or something like that, they like dopamine enhancing activities like winning mind games. idk much about biochemistry, but their minds are wired differently than most people's.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Rhonda Rousey said:


> Psychopathy is biological, they have something going on with their Monoamine oxidase(enzyme that breaks down serotonin)so they can't experience joy or positive emotions or something like that, they like dopamine enhancing activities like winning mind games. idk much about biochemistry, but their minds are wired differently than most people's.


Uh huh. It's MAO-A (3R) allele that's the issue. It's shorter than usual and so produces less MAO enzyme meaning less serotonin and dopamine and other neurotransmitters can be broken down


----------



## Rhonda Rousey

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Uh huh. It's MAO-A (3R) allele that's the issue. It's shorter than usual and so produces less MAO enzyme meaning less serotonin and dopamine and other neurotransmitters can be broken down


Ya. I'm completly noob with biochemistry. Thx for the correction.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Rhonda Rousey said:


> Ya. I'm completly noob with biochemistry. Thx for the correction.


No, you were more or less right. Certainly more informed than most. Wasn't meant to be a correction as much an elaboration.


----------



## Parrot

A friend talked to me today about the spectrum and made me realize some things.

1. Neither he, nor I, are evil psychopaths. He tested to show he has the brain chemistry of one and I believe my brain is probably similar, although not extreme. He describes himself as having the emotional depth of a 4 year old, while I describe myself as 6. It is pure speculation but it seems like a reasonable prediction, to me. For the sake of understanding myself, I call myself a psychopath. Partly because it helps me understand who I am at my core, but the other part is because I am in control of the label I place upon myself. A label does not confine to a small space, but rather shows that I have a radius from which to work from. I will never be a man of morals, but I can be "good" or "bad" depending on my choices. I am not burdened by a conscience that causes me to feel guilt. Despite that, I enjoy being "good". It is enjoyable when people like me, trust me, and I have my life together.
2. I have emotions but they are not strong. I once heard from a colleague that my brilliant boss said of me "His brain has to give him permission to feel." This statement is true as I can feel the emotion of a song and immediately turn off emotion after it's over. As I type, I am listening to a bunch of sad songs, and I'm not really too immersed into them. (_For example, I am listening to Meatloaf's "Two out of Three". It's funny how focused I am. I'm actually disappointed that I can't enjoy that song, right now, but I have typing to do._) This might be a sign of secondary psychopathy in that I have an empathy switch. I am glad that I have one, although the only empathy I usually feel is for those similar to me. Simply put, I have love for those of us who are unlovable. I remember being happy for the two convicts that escaped prison in NY, and feeling disappointed when they were caught. I would like to learn how to better love those around me. It does seem impossible, as I do not feel guilted towards doing so. Rather, it's just something that seems would make life more fulfilling.
3. I am capable of being evil and that does not bother me. I do not want to be, but I will if I am compelled. Perhaps it is the cynicism of psychopathy, but I do not see a world deserving of love. I see fragility and brokenness mixed hope. Squashing hope serves a purpose, which is why I'd prefer to be a necessary evil, at times. Truth is more important than someone's feelings. Like I said in the OP, most feelings are unnecessary to me. Not suggesting people shouldn't have them, but I do not feel compelled to acknowledge them. Feelings come and go, so hurting feelings is just a part of life. 
4. I am capable of being good. As I said, being good usually makes life more enjoyable. In the OP, I mentioned God and I how I do see the existence of something greater to be unreasonable. That belief allows me to accept that life might have a purpose. Morality is unimportant to me, but meaning is something I value. If I cause pain to someone else, then perhaps they can grow from it. I do not care if they do, but I would vote yet, if asked. 
5. Life is beautiful and painful, both in union with each other. I have been lonely and I have been happy. Mostly, I have been numb. My likely neurology does not dictate my destiny, but understanding who I am allows me to take off the mask, when I can. I hate having to wear a mask, but it is necessary to get through life. I guess one of my "morals" is that I will not back down from someone attacking my lack of morality. I should not have to hide, anything, but I will if I must. Someday, I hope that I will be free to be myself, which is why I allow the label psychopath to be attached to myself. This is because, with proper awareness and understanding, we should not fear those who are different. I am not a martyr, because I am not driven by emotion. Rather, being rational is what creates understanding.
6. The world is full of broken people seeking meaning. Why can I not be one of them. The success of their journey matters little to me. In fact, I expect most to fail and I have no pain for them. Still, I "feel" compelled to aid the journey in life. I am not sure why I like helping people, even though I rarely do. Perhaps it is because of narcissism? My mom/family would tell me it's Jesus knocking on my heart. Although I am not sure, I do believe it might be because deep down, I am still human. I might feel like an outsider to the rest of humanity, but even on the fringes, people can still exist. I am not a monster. 
7. For the sake of casual conversation, I am NOT a psychopath. I just struggle with empathy, determining morality, and feeling emotions. In my mind, I know what I am, and I am not driven by any fear of that knowledge. Someday, I might go to a psychologist, maybe get brain scans done. I doubt I'd be surprised by what I see. It's not like I just settled on this after a day of reading. I have put a lot of research into this and even more introspection. I am excited to find out the truth and I encourage everyone to do the same. 
8. To empaths out there, don't be so greedy with your empathy. Why would someone like me ever want to be empathetic if most empaths are equally horrible people? To the closet psychopaths/sociopaths, learn the truth about yourself and make decisions that better yourself. You might be surprised to find that many of the most logical decisions coincide with what normal people decide is right or wrong. We do not need morality to make the most of life. Finally, find some purpose in life. Cynicism and Nihilism destroy us. I prefer to be a jovial stoicist. I am content with what life as given me and I do not allow outside influences to make me angry. After all, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. Basically, be a Jedi.


----------



## Shroud Shifter

Drunk Parrot said:


> Someday, I might go to a psychologist, maybe get brain scans done. I doubt I'd be surprised by what I see. It's not like I just settled on this after a day of reading. I have put a lot of research into this and even more introspection.


Would you be disappointed if you went to take a brain scan and the shrink told you there was nothing out of the ordinary there?


----------



## Thalassa

> God exists, then that is why psychopaths exist. Maintaining a wonderful life is not the path to enlightenment. A muscle grows after tearing first. Your soul cannot grow unless it has first been broken. If you have been seriously hurt by a psychopath/sociopath/narcissist, then wrap yourself up in the pain. Contemplate it, brood on it, become it...then release it. Only through real suffering can real joy be experienced. Because, if it isn't real, then I don't care nor respect it.


What a crock of shit. You should all be removed from the gene pool for the betterment of mankind. You exist because Satan exists, not just because God exists. If anyone in this thread admires you for this manipulative pseudo-poetry, then they've also lost my respect. I'm immune to this garbage.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Thalassa said:


> What a crock of shit. You should all be removed from the gene pool for the betterment of mankind. You exist because Satan exists, not because just because God exists. If anyone in this thread admires you for this manipulative pseudo-poetry, then they've also lost my respect. I'm immune to this garbage.


Psychopaths have driven the progression of humanity for millennia. Their barbaric acts have resulted in globalisation among other things.

Whether you think they are a good or bad force is ultimately irrelevant.


----------



## Thalassa

Shroud Shifter said:


> Would you be disappointed if you went to take a brain scan and the shrink told you there was nothing out of the ordinary there?


Maybe he just needs an exorcist.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Thalassa said:


> Maybe he just needs an exorcist.


Stop being so facile. You demonise him for being biologically incapable of empathy. It makes no sense.


----------



## Thalassa

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Psychopaths have driven the progression of humanity for millennia. Their barbaric acts have resulted in globalisation among other things.
> 
> Whether you think they are a good or bad force is ultimately irrelevant.


Bullshit. They're a flaw in evolution, or they're evil. They feed on the empathy of normals and anyone who oohs and aahs and dances around feeling sorry for these people, saying we should save them or we need them, are the idiots who perpetuate their terror.

Yeah we have psychopaths to thank for globalization - you mean global destruction on a massive scale. What I think is completely relevant. We have to get rid of them.


----------



## Thalassa

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Stop being so facile. You demonise him for being biologically incapable of empathy. It makes no sense.


Stop being such a pawn. You're enabling a psychopath. It makes no sense.

FacIle indeed...you're so pliable.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Thalassa said:


> Stop being such a pawn. You're enabling a psychopath. It makes no sense.
> 
> FacIle indeed...you're so pliable.


 I'm enabling my self-interest, just as you are by encouraging the psychopathic demise.


----------



## redneck15

Drunk Parrot said:


> @_URLteenth_ This is what @_Occams Chainsaw_ posted on a previous page and I would say it is very true for me.
> 
> 
> 
> I would not consider you to be NPD, as you're more rational and soul-searching. I do, however see you as falling somewhere in cluster B, specifically as similar to me, whatever I "officially" am. Perhaps I could just be delusional and I'm trying to project myself into you. I am much more rational than that, so I put some thought into it, before I said my piece.


Well, I do feel like there are some similarities. But I don't know, it seems like a lot of the description is pretty vague, it could apply to a lot of people. I mean, don't lots of us have romantic ideals? And it's not too hard to project if you want to; I can see myself a lot of ways. Some of which are untrue. Others of which are partially true. The self is too complex to really nail down ime. Psychology takes a shot at it, but cognitive functions are nothing like enough. 

I think I was exploring a certain pov when I filled out those questionnaires, as I have done repeatedly in the past. You could call that emotionally impoverished, or you could call it emotionally deep because of the capacity to explore so many different perspectives. 

I will say that I was on the verge of some big life changes when I wrote that. Now I've made them, and I feel much better. I was probably in denial of some stuff at that time. Specifically, I had the feeling that I was too dramatic about myself, so I should try to cut down and simplify myself by using some functional definitions and saying that was me. It was a perspective, but it isn't all that fulfilling, and definitely not motivating. So it's a bad perspective I won't revisit.

I'm leaning towards thinking that I'm a feeling type traumatized by logic I can't live by. It really does make me miserable. I've always grown up around that my whole life though. All my male peers were Se types, Te was our ideal, and so there was just a bunch of steel I internalized. So I did a bunch of self-discovery for a long time, why I am I unhappy about what I think I believe? It makes me feel wooden or made of metal. I like to think I spit it out now, maybe it will be a process, but it starts small. 

What you said at first I didn't really believe because it looked to me like my own delusions. So you were right that I had some delusions, I think the bit about hope and the self was true, but the rest was wrong. 

On the other hand, I don't see you shifting in your image here. I mean, some slight changes but that's just acclimating and your mood and so on. 

I am giving a confirmed ENTP 'therapy' right now, and actually I know I was wrong now. You aren't deluded or anything. I'd say you have a stronger image of yourself than I do, by far. So does she. You both have a stable self image, maybe based on the Ti? 

I've known two ENTPs in real life well now, both female, and you guys have some similarity. I've known another female ENTP slightly who I suspected of being a psychopath, if those exist, and I could tell by the reptilian use-and-throw-away mindset she betrayed in her conversation. You could tell she saw people as just assets to be sucked dry. I was very repulsed by her. 

The other two are not attractive in a feminine kind of way, I think the Ti kills femininity for me at least. That's why I thought I was the right person to help them; if I'm not attracted to them there's no way I'll be cynical about it deep down.

Kind of stream of consciousness, but I guess I'm saying your mind doesn't feel that different from the one I'm 'therapizing'. She feels a lack of emotion, but thinks it's because she's just slow to get there. Which could be true, I don't know. 

You just don't seem like the psychopathic people I've known. They felt evil. Other people thought they were evil. Or else they were shallow success people, and still no one liked them, but we didn't criticize them because they had a title and all.


----------



## 66393

Drunk Parrot said:


> Thank you


Don't mention it.


----------



## Shroud Shifter

You guys are probably confusing malignant narcissist with a psychopath. All the psychopaths (or what I understand by the term) do not have an "evil" feel to them, on the contrary they appear very charismatic, energetic and entertaining people. Very sensitive people dislike them, because according to them (Fi types, mostly) they feel very cold and uncaring, but that's not readily apparent to everyone.

In fact all psychopaths I've met have been very distinct ESTP types, almost caricatures in a way. In my opinion a psychopath is an ESTP with overly developed Se, or underdeveloped Ti and Fe, so it's just extroverted sensing all the way. They act impulsively and irrationally and their inferior functions are not strong enough to keep them in check. They can't handle routine or boredom, it drives them nuts.

So in a way what some people might call a "high-functioning sociopath" is actually a healthy ESTP. While ENTP's are more like narcissists in their many forms, some of them may appear quite evil because they take pride in manipulating people etc. While a psychopath is not prone to introspection at all, they just do and never stop to think about consequences or anything at all.


----------



## Parrot

Shroud Shifter said:


> You guys are probably confusing malignant narcissist with a psychopath. All the psychopaths (or what I understand by the term) do not have an "evil" feel to them, on the contrary they appear very charismatic, energetic and entertaining people. Very sensitive people dislike them, because according to them (Fi types, mostly) they feel very cold and uncaring, but that's not readily apparent to everyone.


I would say this part is close to accurate, in that your understanding isn't far off.



> In fact all psychopaths I've met have been very distinct ESTP types, almost caricatures in a way. In my opinion a psychopath is an ESTP with overly developed Se, or underdeveloped Ti and Fe, so it's just extroverted sensing all the way. They act impulsively and irrationally and their inferior functions are not strong enough to keep them in check. They can't handle routine or boredom, it drives them nuts.
> 
> So in a way what some people might call a "high-functioning sociopath" is actually a healthy ESTP. While ENTP's are more like narcissists in their many forms, some of them may appear quite evil because they take pride in manipulating people etc. While a psychopath is not prone to introspection at all, they just do and never stop to think about consequences or anything at all.


This is where you're incorrect. A psychopath is not simply an ESTP with higher functional use. It is a neurological condition where any type, theoretically, can be one. That being said, there are plenty of times where I appear ESTP to be more charming and down to Earth. Hell, I'll act high Fe ESFJ, high Ti INTP, life of the party ESFP, or running the show ENTJ. I can shift my identity, because I have no strong ties to any identity.

I think you're grossly over stereotyping what a sociopath is and not doing anybody a favor if they were to interact with a sociopath who does not meet your arbitrary criteria. I only care, because my alternate ego is a clinical psychologist.


----------



## Shroud Shifter

That's where we differ then. My criteria is not all that arbitrary; it's based on what Robert Hare and Harvey Cleckley have written about the topic and the behavior I've witnessed in people who seem to possess a lot of the traits the aforementioned authorities have identified as "psychopathic", while your interpretation seems to be grounded on introspection and intuition alone. But I'm not just gonna take your word for it, that only because you strongly believe yourself to be a "psychopath", you know everything there is to know about the topic. I've strongly believed stuff about myself too, that have later been proved false, so it's not very compelling argument, no matter how skillfully you present your points. Your definitions of what you see as "psychopathy" have so far seemed more like a philosophy or general outlook towards life than a neurological condition.


----------



## Parrot

Shroud Shifter said:


> That's where we differ then. My criteria is not all that arbitrary; it's based on what Robert Hare and Harvey Cleckley have written about the topic and the behavior I've witnessed in people who seem to possess a lot of the traits the aforementioned authorities have identified as "psychopathic", while your interpretation seems to be grounded on introspection and intuition alone. But I'm not just gonna take your word for it, that only because you strongly believe yourself to be a "psychopath", you know everything there is to know about the topic. I've strongly believed stuff about myself too, that have later been proved false, so it's not very compelling argument, no matter how skillfully you present your points. Your definitions of what you see as "psychopathy" have so far seemed more like a philosophy or general outlook towards life than a neurological condition.


Fair, but the neurological condition only being found in ESTPs in pure speculation, on your part. No authority has said that.


----------



## Tetsuo Shima

xxTJ= Psychopath
xxTP= Sociopath
xxFJ= Empath
xxFP= HSP


----------



## Shroud Shifter

If it even is a neurological condition. Hare simply presents is as a cluster of personality traits, some of which are found in everyone in usually low degrees. Psychopathy has not been identified as a disorder or neurological condition by anyone. Hare's check-list is simply applied to criminals, as scoring high on pcl-r usually predicts high risk of recidivism.


----------



## Shroud Shifter

Tetsuo Shima said:


> xxTJ= Psychopath
> xxTP= Sociopath
> xxFJ= Empath
> xxFP= HSP


If we used this criteria to define these words, it would certainly change a lot of what I've said before. In that case I would say that the people I've defined as "psychopaths" before are actually "low-functioning sociopaths". While the majority are definitely high-functioning, as xxTP type makes up closer to 20 percent of the population. TJ closer to 25 %.


----------



## Parrot

Shroud Shifter said:


> If it even is a neurological condition. Hare simply presents is as a cluster of personality traits, some of which are found in everyone in usually low degrees. Psychopathy has not been identified as a disorder or neurological condition by anyone. Hare's check-list is simply applied to criminals, as scoring high on pcl-r usually predicts high risk of recidivism.


If it IS a neurological condition, I'm trying to figure off if I have the neurology. As far as the PCL-R is concerned, I'd probably show up in the 20s, like I said before.



> If we used this criteria to define these words, it would certainly change a lot of what I've said before. In that case I would say that the people I've defined as "psychopaths" before are actually "low-functioning sociopaths". While the majority are definitely high-functioning, as xxTP type makes up closer to 20 percent of the population. TJ closer to 25 %.


Let's NOT use that criteria. What a joke to call almost half the population psychopaths and sociopaths.


----------



## Shroud Shifter

I have read a lot about psychopathy and all kinds of personality disorders in the past, but MBTI is a very new tool for me. While I have sometimes played around with the 4-letter descriptions in the past, I didn't delve into the cognitive functions theory until very recently. Now that I have done so, I'm beginning to see an interesting pattern.

It's not very uncommon these days to find people in the internet who identify themselves as "psychopaths", "sociopaths" etc., even if they don't really manifest too many psychopathic traits in their actual behavior. But I have noticed that people who often are suspected by others and/or themselves being in the "continuum" almost always seem to be ENTPs, INTPs, ESTPs or ISTPs. What's in common with these four types? They all have very high introverted thinking function. That cold, logical, unemotional Ti that often gives bad vibes in particular to people with high Fi, it's polar opposite. I admit that I myself entertained the notion of maybe being some kind of a psychopath when I was younger, just because I didn't seem to feel that affective empathy everyone was talking about. It didn't take me too long to rule out the possibility, though, when I found out that psychopathy is not synonymous with lack or low amount of affective empathy. It's a constant behavioral pattern which is harmful to those around them. I also learned that lack of affective empathy is not uncommon in people, so it doesn't make me all that special or unusual either.

However, the people who come up with fanciful theories about "high-functioning sociopathy" and the like in internet forums always strike me as either ENTP or INTP types. So that seems to an Ne thing. Isn't that how extroverted intuition works? Spinning novel ideas and fanciful theories out of nowhere?

Just food for thought.


----------



## Hero of Freedom

Included three to not bother putting them into separate posts to take up less space:

Research shows that people with psychopathy are capable of feeling normal empathy like other people, but their mind is wired in a way in which its like an on-off switch: Psychopaths Can Feel Empathy Too, When They Try

Thoughts on people with Autism/Asperger's Syndrome?(And I don't mean in a bad way). Most are actually frighteningly intelligent. They are said to have difficulty connecting emotionally to other people, living things and etc around them + are often extremely mathematically and rational minded? Therefore unknowingly offending people in some occasions, feeling like they are "outsiders" and having to see everything analytically/scientifically.

As for your desire for war. There is one weird phenomena that happens in the entire human population in cycles probably. Before World War 1 or World War 2 broke out, humans in general were less happier with worse off emotional well-being. Issues like Depression, PTSD or etc becoming more common. Then suddenly when the people with those issues go into a real battle/war these suddenly all dissapear. In some cases even those that are Fi are affected, making them want to go out and shoot people for a cause as shown in this thread. Some people in the military have this desire of war and become restless when not exposed to it for awhile, you are not alone(people without sociopathy/psychopathy have this desire too, infact maybe all humans have it hidden in them which is how so many teens or etc willingly + desperately joined up in WWI) but its not publicly expressed by them. Infact somebody on here has it too despite being or leaning more to INFP like me(And I don't mean it in a bad way but as an example). People for some reason all of a sudden have high emotional well-being after the said world war or big war ended never seen before in their lifetime:

http://personalitycafe.com/current-events/667970-war-russia-8.html

http://personalitycafe.com/current-events/667970-war-russia-9.html


----------



## Parrot

Dawn of the Light said:


> Included three to not bother putting them into separate posts to take up less space:
> 
> Research shows that people with psychopathy are capable of feeling normal empathy like other people, but their mind is wired in a way in which its like an on-off switch: Psychopaths Can Feel Empathy Too, When They Try
> 
> Thoughts on people with Autism/Asperger's Syndrome?(And I don't mean in a bad way). Most are actually frighteningly intelligent. They are said to have difficulty connecting emotionally to other people, living things and etc around them + are often extremely mathematically and rational minded? Therefore unknowingly offending people in some occasions, feeling like they are "outsiders" and having to see everything analytically/scientifically.


I've considered Asperger's but I identify more with the psychopathic traits. Psychopathic Writings: Psychopaths & Asperger's Syndrome.
@Shroud Shifter
The blog writer scored as a 37 when he takes the test. Here's mine, self-assessed, considering my late teens/early 20s:

glib and superficial charm: 2/2-*Was always trying to be charming. Was very 3w2-like with first impressions*
grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self: 2/2-*Was, and still am, at times, very full of myself.*
need for stimulation: 1.5/2-*Not fully sure, I could be content at times.*
pathological lying:2/2 - *I lied all the time just for the hell of it. I would tell the truth, too, but I've noticed that my physical "tells" that are usually attributed to lying, often come out when I'm telling the truth. Telling a lie that I've prepared for can come out effortlessly.*
cunning and manipulativeness: 1.5/2-*I didn't know it was manipulation but I sure did it a lot. Now, I don't care if I have to do it, but I avoid it just because people get pissed off if you do it too much. And pissed off people are not as fun or useful as happy people.*
lack of remorse or guilt: 2/2-*I could feel regret for suffering consequences but the concept of morally wrong just seems subjective and useless. I'll even admit if I did something wrong if there is a rationale behind it. But being wrong for something purely moral is/was a useless concept to me.*
shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness): 2/2-*I've never known how to deal with people displaying strong emotions. I just say something and hope they forget about me if they're sad.*
callousness and lack of empathy: 2/2 - *I thought I was empathetic, but rather I just "understood" at times. I've never really felt burdened for anyone.*
*Primary*: 13/16
parasitic lifestyle: 2/2 *I am constantly taking advantage of people mostly because I'm unaware of it. Since I'm never considering other's emotions or needs I just always do what's advantageous to me.*
poor behavioral controls: 0/2 *I think this is the Ne vs Se in display. Never did too many egregious actions*
sexual promiscuity: 1/2 *Don't care for this as being equal to "Shallow affect", for example. Looking back, I would be really creepy, that it doesn't sound others did the same. I was never really a man-whore though.*
early behavior problems: 1/2 *I was raised pretty well, despite my presumed neurology. I was a terror as a child, but calmed down around age 7.*
lack of realistic long-term goals: 2/2 *I do not have any real goals past 3 months, and most of mine are week to week. I have a narcissistic 30-40 year concept of being rich but no idea how to make it happen*
impulsivity: 2/2 *I blow money and make stupid decisions as if I'm a sail in the wind.*
irresponsibility: 1.5/2 *I was pretty irresponsible in College, always skipping class, never studying, abusing adderall, and never cleaning up after myself. *
failure to accept responsibility for own actions: 1/2 *If it's a logical mistake, I'll accept it because I don't fear the consequences.*
many short-term marital relationships: 0/2 *Why is this an equally weighted criteria?*
juvenile delinquency: 0/2
revocation of conditional release: 1.5/2 *I went "back on my word" all the time, but mostly with my parents. It was/is very difficult to alter my behavior unless I experience enough consequences to change it.*
criminal versatility: 0/2 *Haven't committed too many crimes. No felonies, just some minor theft and drunk driving. Never got pulled over though, amazingly.*
*Secondary: 13/24*
*Total: 25/40*

Hare Psychopathy Checklist - define, person, people, used, personality, score, traits, Definition, Purpose

Obviously this was self-diagnosed, but it's not like I randomly decided I was a psychopath, at least neurologically, not criminally. 30+ qualifies a criminal diagnosis which is why I would say I'm pro-social or a light psychopath. The three parts I posted were impulsive after an appointment with a psychologist was canceled (By the psychologist). I'm not "proud" or "happy" to one. In some ways it sucks, but I can't muster a strong enough feeling either way. Being so/sx with the more "inclusive" Ne probably makes me people-friendly but it doesn't change the fact that I feel pretty disconnected from the world. As I've said before, I need sympathy in order to survive, but I want understanding, personally. I would avoid, although not guarantee, abusing someone's trust if they show understanding. Otherwise, it's free game in this world. Being aware of consequences and knowing boundaries of what is permissible is more useful to me than knowing someone's feelings. That being said, I guarantee I can read someone's type, in person, way better than 99.371% of people. It's because I'm always having to study them. When I know what type of person someone is, I know how to influence them as well as knowing what to avoid that'd cause them to negatively view me; which can be quite harmful if enough people have that view.


----------



## Hero of Freedom

The extreme opposite of "sociopathy/psychopathy" are people with psychosis apparently btw but its only SOME and not all are that bad just like your claim of those who have the non-emotional counterpart of it(sociopathy/psychopathy). They are capable of carrying out the exact same acts of torture and etc on the exact same level of some people with sociopathy/psychopathy did, more common in ancient times(eg. the Roman Soldier who exploded in rage and killed Archimedes or vengeance based torture executions in earlier times during history). Bad acts or sudden violent acts based on psychosis(eg. if it is driven on rage/anger) can be linked to zeal for anything or an extreme emotional reaction for uncontrolled ones sometimes. Those with it can also keep it hidden but go a great length in pursuing whatever it is they want but driven by emotions. Do you believe they can be mistaken for you guys since if somebody strongly believes an act they committed was morally justified, guilt would be absent.


----------



## Parrot

Dawn of the Light said:


> The extreme opposite of "sociopathy/psychopathy" are people with psychosis apparently btw but its only SOME and not all are that bad just like your claim of those who have the non-emotional counterpart of it(sociopathy/psychopathy). They are capable of carrying out the exact same acts of torture and etc on the exact same level of some people with sociopathy/psychopathy did, more common in ancient times(eg. the Roman Soldier who exploded in rage and killed Archimedes or vengeance based torture executions in earlier times during history). Bad acts or sudden violent acts based on psychosis(eg. if it is driven on rage/anger) can be linked to zeal for anything or an extreme emotional reaction for uncontrolled ones sometimes. Those with it can also keep it hidden but go a great length in pursuing whatever it is they want but driven by emotions. Do you believe they can be mistaken for you guys since if somebody strongly believes an act they committed was morally justified, guilt would be absent.


Yes, I once told someone I lived with that "I Think I have the neurology of a psychopath". That is an safe prediction, because until the words are defined, it's best to avoid saying I actually am one. Anyway my roommate (also house owner) never treated me the same, afterwards. Eventually, she wanted to get me out and at one point started combining the two psychos. I wanted to explain to her that being a psychopath does not mean someone is insane and mentally unstable. Unfortunately, I couldn't debate the semantics with her because she was "psychotic" or something like that during the time. The story still hasn't been resolved, after she locked me out (which is highly illegal) and I had to find a new place. The thing was, I never wanted her to be afraid of physically, although I'm much bigger than her. Rather, I wanted her to be afraid of the legal consequences if she kept being a bitch to me. The important lesson, though, is don't tell people I'm a psychopath. I can tell people I don't feel empathy, I'm highly impulsive, I struggle with being honest, I struggle with staying loyal, I sometimes feel like I'm wearing a mask etc. Most people will actually respond sympathetically because they think I'm trying to better myself. I am, just not for the same motivation as they'd assume. But the second I drop the "P-Bomb" and I guess it's like flight or fight in some people's minds? I started the three threads simply because I like talking about it and learning about myself. Sure, the context revolves around my narcissistic ass haha, but I really do want to read open dialogue.

I do think those with strong emotion can cause greater damage, simply because there's so many normal empaths with conflicting emotions. I guess some psychopaths are out there being violent, but I think a lot of it is being in bad situations during their younger years. I suppose some psychopaths are driven by sadistic desires, too, as well as many sociopaths and narcissists. But then many normal empaths are driven by selfish desires. It's mind-boggling to me that people will tout how great empathy is and willingly shut it off on many people who could use their empathy. It is uncommon, in my observation, to find truly caring empaths. I guess they'd be the people who are at the healthiest levels of the Enneagram. *_Narcissistic Idealism Alert_* If everyone or even half the people in this world were as caring as these individuals, I doubt many psychopaths would be as cynical, predatory, or parasitic. Since most people aren't, it's easy to cynically see most people as emotional, but selfish. They care about their feelings, and maybe their loved ones. I don't care if someone is sad because they saw news of a mass shooting, their temporary display of empathy is soon replaced by thinking of dinner. I'm critical because objectively measuring other's empathy has shown that it generally isn't that great, in my perception. Sure, the concept of empathy is fantastic, but the actual application is pitiful, many times. And then these same selfish empaths get riled up about a cause that is important to them, or they're simply offended, and lash out with rage or pettiness. The same people who can feel other's pain are just as quick to inflict it upon those they deem unworthy. Ok, fun rant over

As far as the article you posted about an empathy switch, I've read it before and it makes sense. I'd say it isn't a normal switch where all I have to do is turn it on. Rather, it has to be held down in order to use it and the second I take my "finger" off, I lose it. Basically, I have to give myself permission to consider emotions. Usually it's selfish, like I want to enjoy a song or have fun. On rare occasion, I've tried to put myself in other people's shoes. When I do that, though, I still think like me. I can logically understand why they are feeling that way, but since I do not maintain feelings, it's impossible to actually empathize on the concept of what's being "endured". When someone is told about a personal tragedy (like a death or a break-up), I can understand their emotion within the first couple of minutes. Even if I'm not empathizing, per se, I'd at least be sympathetic and give them their space, if it's just a normal situation. 

I'm rambling. Anyway DotL, yes, pretty much all violent crime, crazy people, acts of insanity or selfishness are tied to sociopathy or psychopathy, in pop culture or the media. It is much easier to say someone is a deranged psychopathic lunatic than to ever try to understand why they committed that crime and how we can prevent those, ethically, in the future. Or at the very least, how about people doing research before they mislabel someone? Not like it matters, because we can't even agree on the labels in this damn thread. I've been considered an outright psychopath by some, and a "look how cool I am" try-hard by others. There's simply no immediate solution so as always, my best course of action is to just continue living exactly how I want to live.


----------



## Shroud Shifter

Drunk Parrot said:


> @Shroud ShifterThe blog writer scored as a 37 when he takes the test. Here's mine, self-assessed, considering my late teens/early 20s:


I'm well acquainted with the Psychopathic Writings blog, it's been around for a few years and I believe the blogger to be a fraud. He (or she) has extensive knowledge about the subject and is clearly obsessed by the topic, and writes interesting fiction about psychopath's "point of view", but I fully believe it to be just a character. There's a lot of those around in the internet.

About your own scores, I would rather if it was done by someone else because people tend to be subjective and read way too much into things if they have gotten in their heads that they are a certain way. I've definitely done it myself. I'm pretty certain your score would be considerably lower if done by someone else. Maybe higher than most of the people you meet every day, but still.

I would also advise you against telling people of your suspected psychopathic or narcissistic traits, you will only hurt yourself that way. People tend to react negatively to those words and will want you out of their lives, whether it's true or not.

As for the getting rich in 30-40 years, I suggest you put some money from your paycheck regularly into low to moderate risk stocks or funds. Diversify, and don't take too big a risk unless you can afford to lose it. Maybe you will not get a filthy rich multimillionaire, but in 30-40 years you should have enough saved not to worry about your pension anymore.


----------



## Parrot

Shroud Shifter said:


> I'm well acquainted with the Psychopathic Writings blog, it's been around for a few years and I believe the blogger to be a fraud. He (or she) has extensive knowledge about the subject and is clearly obsessed by the topic, and writes interesting fiction about psychopath's "point of view", but I fully believe it to be just a character. There's a lot of those around in the internet.


I could see that. I've read about 10-15 posts, but I just assumed it was honest. If anything, I could see the writer being a psychopath but not nearly as intense as he/she projects. A questionable source doesn't automatically negate what's in the objective source material. By that, I mean the post I shared about the differences between Asperger's & Psychopathy might provide an accurate differentiation. At least, based on my research, I would agree what is in that post.



> About your own scores, I would rather if it was done by someone else because people tend to be subjective and read way too much into things if they have gotten in their heads that they are a certain way. I've definitely done it myself. I'm pretty certain your score would be considerably lower if done by someone else. Maybe higher than most of the people you meet every day, but still.


I tried to be objective in analyzing how I was when I was 19-22 years old. I'm 26, now, I would guess my score, from a clinician, might be high teens or low 20s, depending on how honest I care to be, at the time. The first 8 questions are the most important determination in assessing if someone is a psychopathic at their core. Even though my assessment seeks to "show" that I have many psychopathic tendencies, I am not clinging to the label in order to feel like a badass or special. Rather, I just seek to understand who I am, at my core, and why I do things the way I do. That is why I identify with what I believe the root cause of psychopathy is.



> I would also advise you against telling people of your suspected psychopathic or narcissistic traits, you will only hurt yourself that way. People tend to react negatively to those words and will want you out of their lives, whether it's true or not.


Ni likes to be the one to say "I told you so" and your tertiary sure is showing haha. I guess it's part ignorance as words do not generate a strong reaction from me. I guess my Ne had to test it out myself before coming to a conclusion. I just assumed I could talk to people about it, and they would seek to understand, rather than judge. At least, that is what I would do in the situation. Anytime I've ever told someone, they mostly respond with a nervous laugh, followed by a confused look. My friends and immediate family were more accepting, but I guess that'd be because they love or care for me? I've started to learn why people react the negative way, although it's still annoying. I would think, logically, that revealing my perceived identity would be seen as an honest, non-threatening gesture. That's why I might just give away all the traits I have, but most people don't know what those traits means so they're less likely to judge me.



> As for the getting rich in 30-40 years, I suggest you put some money from your paycheck regularly into low to moderate risk stocks or funds. Diversify, and don't take too big a risk unless you can afford to lose it. Maybe you will not get a filthy rich multimillionaire, but in 30-40 years you should have enough saved not to worry about your pension anymore.


Sound practical advice. When I say I have a 30 year goal, it's more a fantasy that I'm not doing anything to actively achieve.

I appreciate your honest response. This is the debate forum, so I expect disagreement as long as they aren't a pompous asshole about it.


----------



## Shahada

coy said:


> Only needed to read a few sentences to realize this is simply another wannabe playing psychopath on the internet. lame. Nice attempt to shroud the whole, "recognize me as a psychopath please" as a debate.


Being a psychopath is badass and allows you to view the world through the lens of True Logic without having your perfectly immaculate reasoning abilities clouded by weak emotions, which are for losers.


----------



## 66393

Shahada said:


> Being a psychopath is badass and allows you to *view the world through the lens of True Logic without having your perfectly immaculate reasoning abilities clouded by weak emotions*, which are for losers.


Lmao. The bolded fragment is the notion of enlightenment for at least half of the NT's on this site. Always _completely _impartial when debating, and nothing you can say hurts their feelings because THEY HAVE NONE! Just like OP has no feelings! His name is Parrot, get it? He has no understanding of feelings and human emotions, so he is forced to undergo the task of parroting normal people. But as he grew older he began to embrace his true nature. He started to treat the world like a chess game. Parrot is very smart; he has an IQ of 140. So don't be surprised when he bellows out, "CHECK MATE MOTHAFUCKA!" The plebeian emotion harborers are at the mercy of his whims and, being a psychopath, he is _very_ impulsive! The world trembles in fear, and so should you. 

...Coming to a theatre near you on October 31st.


----------



## Parrot

coy said:


> Lmao. The bolded fragment is the notion of enlightenment for at least half of the NT's on this site. Always _completely _impartial when debating, and nothing you can say hurts their feelings because THEY HAVE NONE! Just like OP has no feelings! His name is Parrot, get it? He has no understanding of feelings and human emotions, so he is forced to undergo the task of parroting normal people. But as he grew older he began to embrace his true nature. He started to treat the world like a chess game. Parrot is very smart; he has an IQ of 140. So don't be surprised when he bellows out, "CHECK MATE MOTHAFUCKA!" The plebeian emotion harborers are at the mercy of his whims and, being a psychopath, he is _very_ impulsive! The world trembles in fear, and so should you.
> 
> ...Coming to a theatre near you on October 31st.


I would hope the story has a happy ending; I sure do like a happy ending. So are you and @Shahada transitioning this topic towards the concept that I'm a wannabee badass? I like a good debate and since we're all NTPs we know the rules: Cite many sources and philosophical structure is **more* important as concrete data.

*Edit: Let's be honest; abstract>concrete


----------



## shazam

@Occams Chainsaw Yeah I was slightly hesitant going all in honesty from the story but then I realised I'm not the dad. I don't know if I'd adopt the all in approach, I get the feeling after I'll be walking on egg shells. I met somebody I believed to be a sociopath and our interaction to the shops ended in a battle of wits and almost physical violence. It certainly was not an enjoyable experience and I would gladly pass if I had the option of doing it again. But I can't make a judgement on one person alone. When I first met this person I had some sort of pity for him, but I heard they prey on that too as a last resort. Tis a windy road this one. My brain is on fire, thanks


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

spidershane said:


> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=203746" target="_blank">Occams Chainsaw</a></i></span>
> <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention --> Yeah I was slightly hesitant going all in honesty from the story but then I realised I'm not the dad. I don't know if I'd adopt the all in approach, I get the feeling after I'll be walking on egg shells. I met somebody I believed to be a sociopath and our interaction to the shops ended in a battle of wits and almost physical violence. It certainly was not an enjoyable experience and I would gladly pass if I had the option of doing it again. But I can't make a judgement on one person alone. When I first met this person I had some sort of pity for him, but I heard they prey on that too as a last resort. Tis a windy road this one. My brain is on fire, thanks


You see, the problem with going all in is you have a bigger investment in the relationship than them. That's exactly where they want you. Truth is it's a bad idea. As a parent, you're probably already completely invested which is why it's not such a stretch to go for it. Without that relationship, though, it really just makes sense to stay away. Curiosity and the personal magnetism no fear, absolute self-confidence, etc. all draw people in. 

Somebody posted this on a psychopath recovery website (I kinda stalk them for entertainment), relating Edward the Princess Vampire to a psychopath. Just imagine the character as a metaphor for psychopathy - his physical feats, translate those to psychopathic strengths. It's actually not a bad comparison, in fairness : 




 (just having a bit of fun there).


----------



## Parrot

@Occams Chainsaw great scenario that answered @spidershane 's question better than I would have. I really don't have the interest in doing a long con, like the 14 year old. Of course, if I was the dad, I'd see right through that little shit's game and then we can make our own games together. 

The main thing that prevents me from being considered a psychopath is I don't really have a predatory nature. Well, I guess I do but I'm more likely to latch into someone and manipulate them into being more successful and mature. Maybe being superficially altruistic makes me the worst psychopath, ever, but I enjoy development more than I enjoy destruction. Unlike the common psychopath that might enjoy breaking their toys or blowing things up, as kids, I tended to create narratives and valued my toys. I'd say that has translated into the narcissistic attachment style. My friends, family, random co-workers affectively feel just like the toys I played with at age 6. I don't control most aspects of their life, (out of sight, out of mind) but I do manipulate them into doing and understanding the things I want them to. Objectively, many of those things are positive, but I like being able to influence those decisions. I don't particularly care to manipulate, but the problem is people don't do what I want them to do if I don't manipulate.

Crushing someone, down to their soul, is very rewarding though. However, I see little purpose in destroying someone for no reason, Shane. My method of destruction, is similar to your "four words" you told your friend. I wouldn't be likely to do anything that would give me a criminal record. Instead, I just sense where their emotional jugular is and rip it out. I don't do it often, but I most certainly enjoy the opportunity when someone "deserves it". For example, I made one of my friends break down and cry 6 months ago. He's an alcoholic but I would like to see him finish his degree. He was in denial about his alcoholism, so with another friend observing, I carved into him verbally, until he was sobbing. He's still an alcoholic, though, so I guess that didn't work. If someone isn't moving forward in the way I want them to, I just erase them from my mind. Sure, if I'm around that guy I'll enjoy his company and have a good time. But I do not have the patience, empathy, or expertise to fix his problems. He'll probably die soon and it'll be disappointing. But my life goes on and I already tried to fix him. 

Another example is the thread you posted about career advice. For me, it was an opportunity to share my opinion, but also invest a little in your future. If you manage to find a good job, then I'd like to know and live vicariously through the experiences. If you continue to not secure your future, then I'd lose any interest in your well-being. Idealistically, live your own life regardless of what I or anyone else thinks. Realistically, be aware that many people do not care about your well-being if you are not productive or useful.

Anyway, that was just an example of the narcissistic attachment style that cluster B types share. I'm way to self-aware and behind the scenes, though, to have NPD. I was officially diagnosed as a light narcissist but not NPD, 3 years ago and 2 years ago. How does that this style style in with Occam's scenario? The teen is looking to live life without being controlled. For him, "playing with toys" is tormenting people and making their lives miserable. If someone, like the dad, attempts to disrupt the teen's lifestyle, then that person must be destroyed, in the teen's view.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Hmm. I don't think that anybody really bought that was just a random made-up scenario, do you?

Lol.


----------



## Parrot

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Hmm. I don't think that anybody really bought that was just a random made-up scenario, do you?
> 
> Lol.


:shocked:

Well for the sake of discussion I wasn't going to make any assumptions. But damn, your Ni really does have to be in control haha.


----------



## Parrot

@Occams Chainsaw objectively, could we be friends in real life where the interaction is independent and mutual or would you feel the need to have total control? Maybe somewhere in between? I don't mind Ni being in control, like with my current INTJ boss, but at least be competent when exercising the control.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

What does control mean? It's not like I do t on purpose or consciously most of the time. I've become partially self aware of tactics I've used throughout my life but only through seeing patterns emerge from repeated experience and then reading, for instance, books neant for avoiding manipulation and thinking "oh. That's a thing?" Most of it is instinctive and not premeditated. This is why therapy is dangerous for this kind of person. One becomes self aware and systemises manipulation. Learns how to behave, what people look for, etc. 

I want to say I don't need control but it's fairer to say I don't always conscoiusly seek it.
Even the events in the story earlier were kind of done without thought about why. Clearly I had a clear idea of what I wanted and how to get it but I wasn't consciously thinking "I'm going to gaslight you". I just did. Another common misconception of narcissistic personalities (third time I've done this disclaimer. Not NPD exclusively) is that everything is calculated. It takes a hell of a lot of self awareness to do that. Most do these things he naturally and a lot of the time just as "reactions".


----------



## Parrot

Occams Chainsaw said:


> What does control mean? It's not like I do t on purpose or consciously most of the time. I've become partially self aware of tactics I've used throughout my life but only through seeing patterns emerge from repeated experience and then reading, for instance, books neant for avoiding manipulation and thinking "oh. That's a thing?" Most of it is instinctive and not premeditated. This is why therapy is dangerous for this kind of person. One becomes self aware and systemises manipulation. Learns how to behave, what people look for, etc.


Maybe not therapy, per se, but awareness is probably a good thing. Most of the manipulation I do is just going through the motions of everyday life. Me being so/sx doesn't make it too difficult, but I do have to logically process how a a normal person acts in different scenarios. This is useful if you're doing a long con to manipulate your way to power. Or in my case, it's useful to just make a living and avoid negative consequences. Life sure is tougher when people dislike me. Acting sympathetic and being agreeable probably makes me more ethical than a lot of people considering it doesn't come naturally to me. And yes, for all of those following along, I will gladly rub one out to the thought that I'm such an ethical person.

Anyway Occam, sounds like we'd make great friends! :happy:


----------



## Metalize

my pheels!


----------



## Parrot

Just read through this thread again: http://personalitycafe.com/myers-br...-test-how-will-different-types-answer-23.html

The concept of empathy sounds great but the application is often piss poor. For those who say they'd save him, without a thought, I respect those people. For those who say they wouldn't because they have no reason to care about the man, I also respect that person. It's the self-righteous assholes who have to weigh it on their shit conscience, deciding to not save him, that annoy me for their existential gymnastics. Either have empathy or don't. Yet, these are the same people who'd lecture me on right and wrong.

Other shit sippers include: 
-The people who'd save it for a loved one or the first dying child they see. These people should not be in charge of decisions beyond Panera or Chilis for lunch.
-The ones who save the guy, in order to pursue criminal justice. You just saved him from dying, going to jail isn't that bad.
-Most of the people who say "no" justify their answer by saying they'd do it for the greater good of saving millions with this magic pill. They do this after the fact, as this scenario doesn't really allot time for careful planning, and there isn't anything to verify it can be done.

I replied to the thread, in August, in a tongue in cheek manner. I'd probably save the guy based on my reasoning being "fuck it". If I don't, whatever. Seeing the diversity of judgment in these scenarios is probably what makes psychopaths so cynical. When half the answers are "no blah blah blah he's not worthy/he is evil". Why should I ever give a damn about others' feelings, when many of them are no better than a psychopath, except they have the feelz?


----------



## Metalize

Do psychopaths experience depression? How about learned helplessness?


----------



## Parrot

Metasentient said:


> Do psychopaths experience depression? How about learned helplessness?


Probably not in the traditional sense. 4 years ago, however, I did get on Wellbutrin. I wasn't actually depressed but I did lack a lot of motivation and was taking advantage of staying at my grandma's. I had just graduated and I wanted a decent job. I went without 8 months of working after graduation. I borrowed money from my dad, that I never planned to pay back, and refused to do any retail/restaurant work. Meh, I'm doing fine, now.

The Wellbutrin made me act like a crazed person, in weeks 2-3. I remember actually feeling upset about things. It was definitely chaotic. I'm not on it now, because I realized I'm not depressed. I just acted that way for sympathy,.


----------



## mangodelic psycho

Drunk Parrot said:


> I'm way to self-aware and behind the scenes, though, to have NPD. I was officially diagnosed as a light narcissist but not NPD, 3 years ago and 2 years ago.


What do you think you have?


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Metasentient said:


> Do psychopaths experience depression? How about learned helplessness?


Not clinical depression: 



Have a look at how it works in that video and I'm sure you can make an educated guess as to why (key focus on neurotransmitters).

Lack of motivation, yes. Learned helplessness, more tricky. I've read H. J. Eysneck talk about partial helplessness in the psychopath but we're not really sure whether that was a clinical term or not.


----------



## series0

I agree that your revelations do not sound so abnormal to me. As an ENTP as well I can and have in the past turned my empathy on and off at will. As an older wiser man I do not allow myself the luxury of disregarding it, but I still can. I think most people possess the gear whether they have learned to use it or not, especially all Ts.


----------



## series0

Drunk Parrot said:


> Probably not in the traditional sense. 4 years ago, however, I did get on Wellbutrin. I wasn't actually depressed but I did lack a lot of motivation and was taking advantage of staying at my grandma's. I had just graduated and I wanted a decent job. I went without 8 months of working after graduation. I borrowed money from my dad, that I never planned to pay back, and refused to do any retail/restaurant work. Meh, I'm doing fine, now.
> 
> The Wellbutrin made me act like a crazed person, in weeks 2-3. I remember actually feeling upset about things. It was definitely chaotic. I'm not on it now, because I realized I'm not depressed. I just acted that way for sympathy,.


Yes, this. Acting that way. 

I think a ton of supposed psychopaths are just acting out. Drama queens. I've seen it in so many cases. And these histrionics are drugged as-if they suffered physiological conditions they do not have. Then, psychologically they cannot admit the truth or they would look really foolish and lose their crutch. Consider yourself lucky.


----------



## Ulyana

Some people have suppressed empathy caused by their environment and experiences with traumas. They can seem narcissistic or psychopathic, but the true psychopath in fact is lacking human empathy. This article complicated psychopathy and doesn't seem to reflect the nature of true psychopathic individuals.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Ulyana said:


> Some people have suppressed empathy caused by their environment and experiences with traumas. They can seem narcissistic or psychopathic, but the true psychopath in fact is lacking human empathy. This article complicated psychopathy and doesn't seem to reflect the nature of true psychopathic individuals.


What is 'human empathy'? The empathy psychopaths lack is affective/emotional empathy (a normal emotional response to an other's pain or suffering) which isn't exclusive to humans. Further, this isn't the only kind of empathy that we have. We also all have cognitive empathy (the ability to understand pain and suffering on an intellectual level). Autistics have a lack of this, meaning it takes more for them to fully understand others' pain but when they do understand they have a normal emotional response. A psychopath, on the other hand, is very aware of others' pain and suffering but has no emotional response.

I feel that, while you think the article complicates things, you are over simplifying.


----------



## Ulyana

Occams Chainsaw said:


> What is 'human empathy'? The empathy psychopaths lack is affective/emotional empathy (a normal emotional response to an other's pain or suffering) which isn't exclusive to humans. Further, this isn't the only kind of empathy that we have. We also all have cognitive empathy (the ability to understand pain and suffering on an intellectual level). Autistics have a lack of this, meaning it takes more for them to fully understand others' pain but when they do understand they have a normal emotional response. A psychopath, on the other hand, is very aware of others' pain and suffering but has no emotional response.
> 
> I feel that, while you think the article complicates things, you are over simplifying.


Definitely complicating.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Ulyana said:


> Definitely complicating.


You might find it more complicated. I prefer to see it as more accurate.


----------



## Parrot

To answer a point that a hypothetical strawman has proposed: "You're clearly just an Aspie obsessed with this topic and the idea of being a psychopath". I've only done basic research on this topic. I'm only interested because it's directly relevant to me and this thread is my only pathway to talk honestly.

Here's the topics that I've greatly researched and memorized useless bits of trivia:
1. The American Civil War. I've memorized random Corps formations, Regiment names, and leaders. Gettysburg is a fun place to visit. But so is Stones River.
2. Etymology of ethnic last names. Slavic names are difficult to differentiate as they name them based on gender, dammit. Haven't started on African names, yet.
3. Geography of the United States: Physical location as well as ethnic, socioeconomic, and political demographics.
4. Mathematical patterns: I will think about fitting 6 numbers between 87 and 99, for example, in my head all day, some days. 87, 89, 92, 94, 97, & 99 seems to be the most logical numbers.

There's a couple more. Typically Asperger's people highly focus on 1-2 topics. I'm not pure aspie, but I can be obsessive about some topics. I think that's common in NTPs, in general. It seems that these obsessive hobbies are only maddening to those who observe it as it feels comfortable to me, learning this useless trivia.

Psychopathy, is just a part of my identity. I'm not even that thrilled to claim it, but I accept it. I wouldn't regard myself as typical, though, but I can't ignore the fact that my core seems to be operating on the psychopath neurological system. At a red light, today, I'm in the right turn lane. The car in front of me could have gone, but waited. When we finally went, I wanted to run her off the road. I didn't, though, because I didn't feel _that_ angry about it, I knew that there'd be no purpose in doing so, and I was almost back to my apartment. It was just an annoyance and I stopped thinking about it 15 seconds later. Weak impulses, weak boundaries.


----------



## Fish Launcher

Drunk Parrot said:


> Anyway, Fishy, you can embrace the idea of whatever you want. Concerning yourself with weakness is not something I can wrap my head around. It just seems unnecessary. I am not weak. I am not a badass, nor do I care if people consider me one. My narcissism wants me to be praised and considered intelligent. I don't really need that anymore than I need cake after a meal. It's just enjoyable.


Likewise, I never understood people's craving for admiration. Who cares about compliments? They're just the noises people make when you walk by. :tongue:





> If you have the chance to leave your sociopathic tendencies behind, do it. Or don't do it. I don't see any reason to be a narcissistic sociopath. I don't see any reason why being a psychopath is great either. It's just the hand I was dealt so I can't really change it. If someone is born blind, they can learn to use their ears and become a great musician, or learn another non-visual skill. Sociopaths might have bad vision but they aren't blind.


I don't believe I have possession of any sociopathic traits. It was probably some of the kinks in the test. Though I do consider myself a narcissist, and am trying to leave that behind. Actively so. Which is why I forced myself to write the previous post, even though (or because) it made me feel vulnerable.


----------



## sinaasappel

are you sure you're not going through a stressful time??


----------



## Parrot

Fish Launcher said:


> I don't believe I have possession of any sociopathic traits. It was probably some of the kinks in the test. Though I do consider myself a narcissist, and am trying to leave that behind. Actively so.


I've never liked the cliche that "A this would never know they were a this". I see this a lot with psychopath and sociopath commentary. I think it's mostly true for a narcissist. AN ENTP might be an exception as Ne considers external factors rather than perceiving within. A J-type narcissist would probably be clueless as their perception of themselves is cemented. ENTPs take a much longer time to perceive their identity, so narcissism is much more fluid.



> Which is why I forced myself to write the previous post, even though (or because) it made me feel vulnerable.


So narcissistic 
@GIA Diamonds my life is pretty alright right now. Stable job, income, friends, etc. I've had these conclusions for months. However, I could see a stressed person expressing this, although I think it'd be much more erratic. I find it interesting how people project normal emotion into me. Hell, I do the same, sometimes, but later recognize it was just a shadow.


----------



## sinaasappel

Drunk Parrot said:


> I've never liked the cliche that "A this would never know they were a this". I see this a lot with psychopath and sociopath commentary. I think it's mostly true for a narcissist. AN ENTP might be an exception as Ne considers external factors rather than perceiving within. A J-type narcissist would probably be clueless as their perception of themselves is cemented. ENTPs take a much longer time to perceive their identity, so narcissism is much more fluid.
> 
> 
> 
> So narcissistic
> @GIA Diamonds my life is pretty alright right now. Stable job, income, friends, etc. I've had these conclusions for months. However, I could see a stressed person expressing this, although I think it'd be much more erratic. I find it interesting how people project normal emotion into me. Hell, I do the same, sometimes, but later recognize it was just a shadow.


I'm puzzled that's why
You don't seem like a psychopath 
 and I'm not talking about the Hollywood versions either


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


----------



## Parrot

GIA Diamonds said:


> I'm puzzled that's why
> You don't seem like a psychopath
> and I'm not talking about the Hollywood versions either


Hollywood's versions range from decently accurate to bizarre fantasy. Many psychopaths are idiots. Get released from jail and immediately steal a car. I think just as many psychopaths are well hidden. So well hidden that they might even fool themselves.

From what I can tell, the scientific community is not really sure what constitutes a psychopath. The PCL-R is used for clinically evaluating a criminal to see if they are a psychopath. Personally, I find it to be too Te heavy and arbitrary. After all, having multiple short term marital affairs is weighted the same as being glib, pathological lying, or callous. I fit many of the traits for primary, but not as many for secondary. Basically, I might not care about people but I'm not compelled to be anti-social and ruin lives. Psychopathy isn't in the DSM, but is instead "replaced" with ASPD or dissocial. Cynically, I believe this is because society doesn't give a shit about what's internal, they care more about behavior. If I'm not an aggressive asshole, am I disqualified? I wouldn't care if I was, but it objectively does not change the fact that I have shallow emotions, among other traits. Psychopathy is the label I identify as, unless a more accurate term is presented.

As far as the forum, enjoy my posts and our conversations for what they're worth.


----------



## redneck15

Fish Launcher said:


> So what now? I suppose, if I am to get anywhere, I need to embrace the idea of being weak, and helpless, and totally out of control. Thus the whole spirituality thing. And thus this little rant.


No man, you need to forget the whole thing. I don't think you know what you're talking about. It doesn't matter what goes on in your head. Forget all that. Power isn't a personal quality! It just means that you get what you want in a certain situation. The same person will be powerful in some situations and very weak in others. That's life. If you want to control it all you're wasting your time because most situations don't matter to your goals.


----------



## Parrot

URLteenth said:


> No man, you need to forget the whole thing. I don't think you know what you're talking about. It doesn't matter what goes on in your head. Forget all that. Power isn't a personal quality! It just means that you get what you want in a certain situation. The same person will be powerful in some situations and very weak in others. That's life. If you want to control it all you're wasting your time because most situations don't matter to your goals.


That was a subjective view. The strong pull to have power and control is not simply "in your head". I don't crave power over others, but I'd rather die than subject myself, unwillingly, to be controlled by others. I'd rather the entire world die than that happen to me. Life is not worth living if I have no control over what I do. What @Fish Launcher describes is a very powerful and instinctual emotion. For me, it is the only thing I feel strongly about, although Fishy's core motivations are different than mine.


----------



## drmiller100

Howdy, 

I JUST found this thread. There are others like you. I am one. @_Aha_ was another. @_ver_una is another. @_Roady82_ a third. All of us in much different stages of life, all of us recognize each other. 

When done, we are uber rational. We are oblivious to most feelings. People call us callous, and we get shit done and hurt people in the middle of it.

perhaps you cannot see how we have trained ourselves to be invulnerable. Someone might destroy me physically, but NO ONE can hurt me emotionally. How I am wired is no male can ever hurt me, and I'll never be vulnerable or under the control to another male, but females I can trust at varying levels, and I can be vulnerable to a very few females. I have had to work on this, and continue to work on it.

Empaths read emotions, and feel other people's feelings. I have done a LOT of research on these people. 

The vast majority of truly great empaths are INFP's. An INFP is wired to use Fi. Because of our common Ne, we bounce off each other well, and the passion is great. 
I have fallen in love with a couple of INFP empaths who told me I am an emotionless, cold, heartless bastard incapable of feeling. 

I am ENTP. My feeling STARTS with Fe, and my emotions are invisible to most INFP's. ENFP's often can't "feel my feelings." 

I have found validation in INFJ's and ENFJ's. Some of them are also empaths, and their path is different. They can feel my feelings, and they can help me find my own feelings. 
Once upon a time I ran across a brilliant ESTP who had incredibly well developed Fe, and she saw and felt my feelings. And she loved me, and I felt it. 

One lesson I learned from her is my greatest gift is my Truth. I value Truth. A great friend gives me Truth so I can improve and grow and be the best I can. The ESTP's greatest gift was to not hurt. She would couch her words to never offer offence. My gift was Truth. I hurt her with my Truth. I hurt her unintentionally. She was a good enough friend she let me know in her own way what I did to her. 

I feel bad I hurt her, and she has forgiven me.

I have feelings. You have feelings. Our easiest feeling is anger or rage, and with that comes happiness and purpose. 

Outside of that rage, we have feelings, but it takes us time and practice to "hear" them. 

I did the numbing thing. I used to drink a fair amount. Then I quit, and started living again.

I still numb myself. It is a weakness, but beyond that it limits me. 

I have found friends on this site who have helped me understand me, who have offered compassion, and patience, and understanding, and friendship.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

La chateau de autiste

What is this - Pretator support group? Free coffee and donuts? Lmao


----------



## drmiller100

Drunk Parrot said:


> That was a subjective view. The strong pull to have power and control is not simply "in your head". I don't crave power over others, but I'd rather die than subject myself, unwillingly, to be controlled by others. I'd rather the entire world die than that happen to me. Life is not worth living if I have no control over what I do. What @_Fish Launcher_ describes is a very powerful and instinctual emotion. For me, it is the only thing I feel strongly about, although Fishy's core motivations are different than mine.


A friendly offer - Every one of the people I mentioned are 8's, most are 8w7 Sx. 

I'd invite you to consider whether your greatest fear is being controlled or whether it is to be in pain.

The ESTP is a 7, and she hates for others to be in pain. As an 8, I hate for those I love to be controlled or powerless.


----------



## drmiller100

Occams Chainsaw said:


> La chateau de autiste
> 
> What is this - Pretator support group? Free coffee and donuts? Lmao


Predator. 

https://drmiller100.wordpress.com/2015/05/12/thing/

I have a strong touch of sadist in me. thing likes to come dance, but my heart and brain have figured out it is best if thing only gets to dance on the faces of predators who would hurt the vulnerable, the weak, those without defense. 

One of my hobbies is I help ladies and kids move out of the homes of abusers who commit DV. I'm not capable nor equipped to provide the emotional support, but I am capable and equipped to help the ladies find safety and encourage the abusers to move along and not come back. 

Another hobby is Search and Rescue. I am very good at leading teams to find lost people. The people on my teams know I'm an emotionless, heartless bastard who ABSOLUTELY protects my searchers, does not waste their time, and has a VERY high success rate in a very short period of time.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Should read through the thread. Its been interesting.

Nonetheless, the amount of NPD diagnoses on this thread that could be made is about 3 now.

In fairness, as I said earlier, Hare's psychopath is much more narcissistic that Cleckley's. In a very different way to the narcissit, though.


----------



## Parrot

Occams Chainsaw said:


> La chateau de autiste
> 
> What is this - Pretator support group? Free coffee and donuts? Lmao


Come on OC, let your feelings out.



Occams Chainsaw said:


> Should read through the thread. Its been interesting.
> 
> Nonetheless, the amount of NPD diagnoses on this thread that could be made is about 3 now.
> 
> In fairness, as I said earlier, Hare's psychopath is much more narcissistic that Cleckley's. In a very different way to the narcissit, though.


Hmmm, according to you, the Doc, Fishy, and ... our banned friend? Unless I'm the third, which I'd say you're just as much a narc as me haha.


----------



## Parrot

drmiller100 said:


> Predator.
> 
> https://drmiller100.wordpress.com/2015/05/12/thing/
> 
> I have a strong touch of sadist in me. thing likes to come dance, but my heart and brain have figured out it is best if thing only gets to dance on the faces of predators who would hurt the vulnerable, the weak, those without defense.
> 
> One of my hobbies is I help ladies and kids move out of the homes of abusers who commit DV. I'm not capable nor equipped to provide the emotional support, but I am capable and equipped to help the ladies find safety and encourage the abusers to move along and not come back.
> 
> Another hobby is Search and Rescue. I am very good at leading teams to find lost people. The people on my teams know I'm an emotionless, heartless bastard who ABSOLUTELY protects my searchers, does not waste their time, and has a VERY high success rate in a very short period of time.


I'm not one to limit "psychopathy" to a set criteria of what it has to look like. Interesting perspective about how you feel the burn to help others or control your world. Interesting perspective. I'm not sure how that would be defined. It sounds like you're self-aware NPD with psychopathic traits. I'd say through our interactions you sound like a healthy individual, for who you are. However...



> I have feelings. You have feelings. Our easiest feeling is anger or rage, and with that comes happiness and purpose.
> 
> Outside of that rage, we have feelings, but it takes us time and practice to "hear" them.


Experiencing genuine feelings, though, is rare for me. Mostly my feelings are just silhouettes of normal feelings. Soon, I promise, I shalt reveal my newest project I've been working on: The Psychoneagram. 

As for me, anger or rage is rare for me. *Sneak Peak* my primary emotion is what I'd call Type 0, which is nothing. It's just default and I'm just thinking. I feel tired, right now, but emotionally, I guess the closest thing I could describe would be content. I worked hard today and I'm looking forward to eating Jimmy John's soon. Publicly, glib is the best way to describe me, with "aloof" being a close second. The latter is tied to me just thinking.



> I'd invite you to consider whether your greatest fear is being controlled or whether it is to be in pain.


It's both, although I can't say their fears because I never think they'll happen. If an attempt is made to control me, I don't get afraid, I just instinctually resist it. As far as pain avoidance, I don't drive my car head-on into traffic. I don't think too long term about pain avoidance. Thankfully, I've learned to take an Uber or Taxi, when drinking. I'm lucky I never got a DUI.


----------



## drmiller100

Drunk Parrot said:


> I'would be defined. It sounds like you're self-aware NPD with psychopathic traits
> 
> As for me, anger or rage is rare for me. *Sneak Peak* my primary emotion is what I'd call Type 0, which is nothing. It's just default and I'm just thinking. I feel tired, right now, but emotionally, I guess the closest thing I could describe would be content. I worked hard today and I'm looking forward to eating Jimmy John's soon. Publicly, glib is the best way to describe me, with "aloof" being a close second. The latter is tied to me just thinking.
> 
> It's both, although I can't say their fears because I never think they'll happen. If an attempt is made to control me, I don't get afraid, I just instinctually resist it. As far as pain avoidance, I don't drive my car head-on into traffic. I don't think too long term about pain avoidance. Thankfully, I've learned to take an Uber or Taxi, when drinking. I'm lucky I never got a DUI.


I don't think I'm NPD. the psychopathic thing given the definitions bantered about in this thread I'll own....... One thing worth pointing out. People like me, when we get lit up, DON"T FUCKING QUIT. I'm smart enough I never get violent, I just make shit happen. 

Treebob on this site once mentioned when you have ENOUGH power you don't ever have to get caught exerting it. You just quietly go about making shit the way you want it. Treebob is NOT anything like me, but he is an 8, who is very bright, and he does understand power and how to use it effectively. I have a lot of respect for him and how he has this site set up and the good it does for people. 


so......... My thought is this is kind of a "type me" thread. I do NOT want to overstep my bounds in offering unsolicited advice on typing. If you tire of me, tell me, and I'll shut up. 

I think you are massively depressed and numb. I've been there. I have a small dose of this at the moment, but it is very short term. I've had long term versions of this. 

"afraid". I've had times in my life when I was a bit nervous, and I light up. My energy goes astronomical, the world slows down, and people back the fuck away from me. I get space. Fear? I do not like heights, and I used to ride avalanche chutes on a snowmobile. When I got to the top, and had to ride off the cliff, I'd get really anxious. Scared???? even. Racing cars up hills would make my heart pump faster. 

driving drunk. I used to drink 12 to 24 beers a night, or a fifth of vodka. for about 12 years. I never drove drunk. 

Imagine some 16 year old driving along and you are drunk and break her neck and she is a paraplegic. Not fair to her. 

anger and rage are rare for me. but when I need it, it FUELS me, gives me POWER, gives me energy. Greatest feeling in the whole fucking world when it is "justified."


----------



## Parrot

drmiller100 said:


> so......... My thought is this is kind of a "type me" thread. I do NOT want to overstep my bounds in offering unsolicited advice on typing. If you tire of me, tell me, and I'll shut up.


I enjoy this topic. It's the only place I can discuss it with people who understand the full context. I even get some narc supply from seeing this topic has over 6k views on the debate forum. As long as we're debating, we're good. When I initially posted this, I guess I pictured a debate on the topic. I like talking about me, although I'll talk about you if the _you_ is something that the _me_ is interested in. (That sounded so pretentious) 



> I think you are massively depressed and numb. I've been there. I have a small dose of this at the moment, but it is very short term. I've had long term versions of this.


That does seem to be the typical answer. I don't blame people for diagnosing me this way. What kind of attention whore goes online begging people to accept him as a psychopath? I'm not depressed nor numb really. The past year has been one of my happiest and I'm not really repressing emotion. Rather, I'm curious to discover what emotions I might have...well occasionally. Emotions are a fun luxury, when I don't have anything I need to think about.

This is one of my favorite songs: 





20% of the time I play it, I can actually get into it. For me, it accurately represents the duality of the cynical aspects of life (lyrics) mixed with the sheer bliss of not a care in the world (melody). The ending where it breaks into the sax solo is my favorite. The dude dies, yet it's the happiest sounding moment, to me. The sweet release of death yields to a new wonderful world of choreographed dancing. That being said, I have no desire to die, I just don't fear the idea of it.



> Imagine some 16 year old driving along and you are drunk and break her neck and she is a paraplegic. Not fair to her.


The main thing that turns me off about this scenario is knowing that everyone who hears the story will hate me and expect me to show deep remorse. I can logically see how it would be my fault, but I can't fake guilt for the rest of my life.


----------



## drmiller100

Drunk Parrot said:


> I
> The main thing that turns me off about this scenario is knowing that everyone who hears the story will hate me and expect me to show deep remorse. I can logically see how it would be my fault, but I can't fake guilt for the rest of my life.


I almost NEVER feel guilt. And shame is a trigger. I will NOT be shamed, and when someone else shames, it is play time. 

beyond guilt, I have a sense of "justice", a sense of wanting to protect the weak, the vulnerable. 

I'm not seeing you as a 7. maybe a 9? 
Do you actually DO things for entertainment?


----------



## Parrot

drmiller100 said:


> I almost NEVER feel guilt. And shame is a trigger. I will NOT be shamed, and when someone else shames, it is play time.
> 
> beyond guilt, I have a sense of "justice", a sense of wanting to protect the weak, the vulnerable.
> 
> I'm not seeing you as a 7. maybe a 9?
> Do you actually DO things for entertainment?


Unfortunately, I don't do too many social activities, although I'd like to. I take adderall. It helps me with work although I know I don't _need_ it. It just makes work seem more like play than work. The entertainment I look forward to is going out on the weekend to get drunk. I'm also planning to go to the strip club, soon. I love strippers as going to the club is like going to an adult amusement park. I like riding a lot of rides, although I inwardly crave for a stripper to seduce and "steal" my money. I'm not actually giving up control, but it's a game for me. I'd take seductive banter and lap dances over generic sex, any day. Blowjobs are nice, though.
-I have several extensive Excel projects that I'm working on.
-I like to watch football and soccer, on occasion.

I remember you saying you were in a fraternity. I was in one too (Unfortunately can't list it here as they probably don't want to be identified as a cess pool of psychopaths). I'm almost 27 so I don't miss it as much, but being an undergrad certainly saw more activities. Nowadays, though, I enjoy my excel projects and this website, during the week.

*Sneak peak* In the Psychoneagram, a psychopath's type is more a silhouette of that type. Type 7 is driven by overcoming their fears by seeking excitement and approaching life with enthusiasm. I act the same way, but the core motivation isn't there. I'm more just a motor of energy, without much purpose. I'm okay with that, though. I enjoy life, for what it's worth, on a day to day basis.


----------



## drmiller100

9. the sloth.


----------



## redneck15

Drunk Parrot said:


> It's a very specific scenario, not one that I am currently in. It would be solitary confinement where the entire world hates me and my soul seems destined for hell.


Oh, gotcha.


----------



## redneck15

Drunk Parrot said:


> Everything else can be taken away but defiance and our own control is all we have left at that one point. People simply cannot empathize with that raw emotion, because it is so foreign. I can, however, and it's profound, to me..


I don't know, I can empathize with the guy kind of. I don't know the details of what he did, but I can imagine doing what he did after I did something wrong. But what I'd tell him is what I also feel to be true: at that point, the clean thing to do is to submit. You screwed up, so reform and let everyone know it. Don't be proud. You'll be able to respect yourself more, and it'll feel like you aren't dirty with the corruption of what you did, and you'll at least know you're doing your best to make things right. That's the truly powerful thing to do too. If you are trying to reform, then to a decent person that means you're entitled to something at least. Whereas the 'fuck you' attitude means the public doesn't give it a second thought when they hear you got put down.


----------



## Parrot

Shroud Shifter said:


> But then comes the mind-boggling part, at least to me. At some point in their lives many of these people get overwhelmed by this strange urge to completely wreck their lives in a matter of a few frenzied seconds. "Let's whip out the ol' johnson and wiggle it in front of this 15-year old girl in a public beach in the middle of the day." "Let's steal a small sum of money (which I don't need) from my employer in the most obvious way possible." "Let's get rip-roaring drunk and drive our car into the side of the police car in the middle of the parking lot of the local police station." You get the picture - always something with little to no benefit to the perpetrator, but the maximum damage to their lives and careers, especially considering the time and effort they have spent honing that silly mask of theirs. Their lives will be completely devastated, even if the legal repercussions remain small, their families, their careers will be blown to bits. So they will move in another town far away, where they will again spend years trying to rebuild what they destroyed. They might not ever amount to what they had previously (because word spreads around) but they may get close, mainly because of their superb people skills. Until the urge hits to wreck it all again.
> 
> *So my question is why? Why do they do this*? Is it just so hard to keep on the mask and play the (grossly exaggerated) parody character they have created for themselves for eternity?


I've thought about this question since you first asked it. I don't think my first answer did it justice as I didn't really know the answer. Although it might not seem like it, this thread has created quite a bit of self-awareness in me.

To answer why, it comes from disillusionment. Every decision has a utilitarian one. Of course, it's easy to say that a psychopath stealing money is because the money provides value and the psychopath wanted it. But a psychopath is not simply a robot. Utilitarian reasons make it practical, but a hedontic reason is what makes it a fantasy or a reality. There's practical reasons for everything we do, but the core of our thoughts points us in the path we choose. 

For example, perhaps I will be late to work. I can either tell my boss a lie to get it excused or tell them the truth. Being late was not something I planned, but I didn't hear the alarm, so I will be late. Utilitarian wise, there is a benefit in lying, so that it doesn't affect my status at the company. There is also a utilitarian benefit to telling the truth and saying I overslept, because people do not like liars. Both have benefits, so which one do I choose? It's easy to say the only motive a psychopath has is selfish but so many life decisions have multiple answers with exclusive benefits. I respect my boss to know that my tardiness is a result of poor planning, but not indicative of disrespect. I tell my boss I was late because I overslept and I get to work right away to make up for it. I am not fazed by whether I'm justified or whether she perceives me to be "sorry." I know I made a mistake and I'm accountable for them. I do not fear the consequences, but I strive to be there ontime/early for the benefits.

So why does a psychopath decide it isn't worth the mask? It happens when cynicism overtakes optimism. I live pro-socially by calling my grandma once a week, have high work productivity, do things for friends, pay rent on time, etc. because I see a positive purpose in doing so. But if thoughts that everyone is fake, the world is all liars, and no one deserves anything from me, take root, then cynical thoughts lead to anti-social behavior. As I've stated much later in the thread, I think the cause of this comes from the lack of cognitive empathy. Wearing a mask, it feels like we're the only ones putting forth any effort to empathize with others. Affective empathy seems fake because it isn't what we experience. Because it might seem like we're the only ones trying, it's not hard for a psychopath to determine that everyone is fake and might as well take what I can. _After all, it isn't like anyone was empathizing with me!!?_ <--- I heard that in another interview I watched with a psychopathic child molester. I take those words seriously because they come from a psychopath's perspective. If affective empathy is perceived as fake and no one is cognitively empathizing with each other or the psychopath, then living selfishly is the only thing that makes sense.

I only recently learned that affective empathy is a real thing. It always seemed fake to me, and I find it personally unnecessary. If someone says they "love me" then I expect them to understand me. I recognize that most people do not view it this way, simply because I am wired differently. Because I understand this, I am not cynical. I am not wholly optimistic either, as I don't care for what most people feel. The ones who understand, though, I respect enough to not hurt them, intentionally. But in the scenarios you present, those psychopaths probably don't think anyone understands so it boils over into a brief moment to unleash all the pent up rage. Taking out the ol' johnson is a beautiful moment because it disturbs and rattles everyone around them. Their pain is fuel and destroying years worth of relationships is not a problem because "It's not like they ever cared about me". I do care to defend the behavior, but I don't think anyone has the right to criticize the motive, unless they can understand it first.


----------



## Roland Khan

Wow, 27 pages...really not about to read all that, lol. But just felt the need to tell you that the OP was just about beautiful, enjoyed it and even relate to many aspects of it myself.

Have dealt with the idea that I may be on the autistic spectrum myself, not sure about psychopathy but have been able to relate to this OP pretty strongly throughout so not sure. Not sure if there's actually a test or something to firmly determine such a thing. 

And Part II, which I've subscribed to the thread but haven't actually read it yet but from the title can already tell I'll relate to it being that it's dealing with the wearing of the mask....assuming it's probably very similar to the asperger's mask which I can remember wearing throughout my entire life in most situations. In my younger years there was only one person who I felt I could go without the mask, but everywhere else even around my friends and immediate family I've had (or at least felt the need) to wear it.


Anyway, just wanted to say thanks for the read.:wink:


----------



## Parrot

URLteenth said:


> I don't know, I can empathize with the guy kind of. I don't know the details of what he did, but I can imagine doing what he did after I did something wrong. But what I'd tell him is what I also feel to be true: at that point, the clean thing to do is to submit. You screwed up, so reform and let everyone know it. Don't be proud. You'll be able to respect yourself more, and it'll feel like you aren't dirty with the corruption of what you did, and you'll at least know you're doing your best to make things right. That's the truly powerful thing to do too. If you are trying to reform, then to a decent person that means you're entitled to something at least. Whereas the 'fuck you' attitude means the public doesn't give it a second thought when they hear you got put down.


I respect your view on it, but I'll respectfully say I don't think your suggestion is practical. Note: Richard Ramirez killed and raped lots of people and was to be executed; died from health issues first.

URL, you have great advice to give and would make a great therapist. I just don't see you being a psychopath's therapist, yet. Without realizing it, your input does not empathize with him at all. That is because cognitive empathy is about understanding without judgment. I wouldn't tell Ramirez what to do, at all. I would simply tell him I understand. Believe it or not, a psychopath can make the "right" decisions, but it won't happen if it feels like our back is against the wall.


----------



## Parrot

Khrakhan said:


> Wow, 27 pages...really not about to read all that, lol. But just felt the need to tell you that the OP was just about beautiful, enjoyed it and even relate to many aspects of it myself.
> 
> Have dealt with the idea that I may be on the autistic spectrum myself, not sure about psychopathy but have been able to relate to this OP pretty strongly throughout so not sure. Not sure if there's actually a test or something to firmly determine such a thing.
> 
> And Part II, which I've subscribed to the thread but haven't actually read it yet but from the title can already tell I'll relate to it being that it's dealing with the wearing of the mask....assuming it's probably very similar to the asperger's mask which I can remember wearing throughout my entire life in most situations. In my younger years there was only one person who I felt I could go without the mask, but everywhere else even around my friends and immediate family I've had (or at least felt the need) to wear it.
> 
> 
> Anyway, just wanted to say thanks for the read.:wink:


Thanks, post your replies on this thread, so we can keep it under one thread.


----------



## Roland Khan

Drunk Parrot said:


> Thanks, post your replies on this thread, so we can keep it under one thread.


Sure thing, sure I'll have something more to say/contribute during the afternoon tomorrow after some sleep later in the morning and after I've had to time to read through more of them :kitteh:. Certainly find these aspects of psychology highly fascinating and relatable.


----------



## drmiller100

@Aha thinking of you........


----------



## Parrot

Khrakhan said:


> Sure thing, sure I'll have something more to say/contribute during the afternoon tomorrow after some sleep later in the morning and after I've had to time to read through more of them :kitteh:. Certainly find these aspects of psychology highly fascinating and relatable.


So did you have anything or did we scare you off?


----------



## Roland Khan

No didn't scare me off  Just kinda chillin today not getting into a lot of writing, lol


----------



## Bunny

So, this is where the psychopaths hang out.


----------



## Parrot

Wytch said:


> So, this is where the psychopaths hang out.


Nah, this thread is mostly me just talking to myself.


----------



## Bunny

Drunk Parrot said:


> Nah, this thread is mostly me just talking to myself.


You have a lot of different accounts.


----------



## Parrot

Wytch said:


> You have a lot of different accounts.


Unfortunately, I'm not that impressive haha


----------



## Bunny

Drunk Parrot said:


> Unfortunately, I'm not that impressive haha


I commend the effort


----------



## drmiller100

Drunk Parrot said:


> Unfortunately, I'm not that impressive haha


I am!!


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Hey, guys - need your help!

As an aspiring psychopath, how should I take my coffee?

Black, two sugars?


----------



## drmiller100

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Hey, guys - need your help!
> 
> As an aspiring psychopath, how should I take my coffee?
> 
> Black, two sugars?



I don't give a fuck.


(GRINS!!!!!!!!!!!! It was there!!!!!!!!) smiles


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

drmiller100 said:


> I don't give a fuck.
> 
> 
> (GRINS!!!!!!!!!!!! It was there!!!!!!!!) smiles


I tried being subtle. Must be losing your touch in your old age!


----------



## Bunny

Although I am not a psychopath, I say put some whipped-cream on top.
Live a little.

Your thanks are bothering me btw :fixes it:


----------



## drmiller100

I went to dinner with a good friend. She is QUALIFIED to evaluate me for psychopath dsm stuff.

I told her I think I have traits along these lines and she LAUGHED AT ME. like full on belly laugh in the middle of the restaurant. 

Apparently I'm not. She explained a few things to me.


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

Interesting read. Makes me think. A lot.


----------



## Roland Khan

Drunk Parrot said:


> This thread IS the subforum haha. It's beautiful how it sticks out like a big ugly wart within the Debate forum. But hey, we have debates within this thread. My favorite topics are "Derp, you're a fake" and "Burn in Hell!"


No, I'm talking about an actual sub-forum of sorts where we can post multiple threads within one area for us to exchange personal experiences and what it's like to live with these kinds of conditions; the "abnormals" and "anti-socials", can help clear up some stereotypes or give more specific ins and outs of what it's like and where people like us are coming from in certain "normal" situations.

Lot of misunderstandings of what it's like to live with pschopathy and on the autistic scale...most people today *still* reject it and basically pass it off as fake due the overall ignorance within our society in regards to mental health/illness.

Just thought it'd be a good idea to get a separate sub-forum (outside of the debate forum:wink for us to gather and discuss things, and for others who don't fall into these conditions to ask questions and scrub away their ignorance on mental health.


----------



## Parrot

@drmiller100 what did she say?


Khrakhan said:


> No, I'm talking about an actual sub-forum of sorts where we can post multiple threads within one area for us to exchange personal experiences and what it's like to live with these kinds of conditions; the "abnormals" and "anti-socials", can help clear up some stereotypes or give more specific ins and outs of what it's like and where people like us are coming from in certain "normal" situations.
> 
> Lot of misunderstandings of what it's like to live with pschopathy and on the autistic scale...most people today *still* reject it and basically pass it off as fake due the overall ignorance within our society in regards to mental health/illness.
> 
> Just thought it'd be a good idea to get a separate sub-forum (outside of the debate forum:wink for us to gather and discuss things, and for others who don't fall into these conditions to ask questions and scrub away their ignorance on mental health.


I know what you're suggesting, I just don't see it as feasible. Too many disorders to consider plus others will have ethical objections to spreading misinformation for non professionals. I really don't want to spread misinformation either, although it'd be funny to convince someone they're a potato.

@Winter Moon please continue.


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

@ Dp, I'll get to it, eventually. 

(Just posting to let you know I'm not ignoring your mention)


----------



## Bunny

Potatoes are delicious.


----------



## Parrot

Just watched _Seven Psychopaths,_ again. Love that movie. One of my favorite lines, from Walken's character: "You were the one so fascinated by psychopaths; they get tiring after awhile."


----------



## Parrot

drmiller100 said:


> mostly cuz i worry too much about it, and she's seen me cry.
> 
> i can't actually type her. I think she is infj or intj. probably infj.
> 
> she gets lost a lot.


I'm talking about on this thread. Like right here:



> I went to dinner with a good friend. She is QUALIFIED to evaluate me for psychopath dsm stuff.
> 
> I told her I think I have traits along these lines and she LAUGHED AT ME. like full on belly laugh in the middle of the restaurant.
> 
> Apparently I'm not. She explained a few things to me.


Also, here's a fun new thread along the lines of this topic: http://personalitycafe.com/debate-forum/728073-can-psychopath-good.html


----------



## TimeWillTell

@Drunk Parrot, I know you stalked me 

How much would you grant me on a 0-10 psychopathy scale pls?


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

drmiller100 said:


> I went to dinner with a good friend. She is QUALIFIED to evaluate me for psychopath dsm stuff.
> 
> I told her I think I have traits along these lines and she LAUGHED AT ME. like full on belly laugh in the middle of the restaurant.
> 
> Apparently I'm not. She explained a few things to me.


Did this make you embarrassed?


----------



## drmiller100

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Did this make you embarrassed?


context. I imagine you are trying to learn about people for various reasons, and you'd appreciate a serious answer.

I'm embarrassed by very little. Shame is something I really dislike, and I'll react readily to someone attempting to shame me or anyone else. 

For sure this touches on vulnerability however. I was a bit annoyed the parrot quoted that into this thread. I didn't put it in here on purpose, and upon reflection, the purpose was to avoid vulnerability. 

I'm actively working on listening to my feelings. Some feelings are more valid or useful or interesting than others. Sad, love, vulnerable, anger, hurt, those feelings are worth feeling. 

Shame, embarrassment, not so much. 

I trust HER with that view into me. I don't trust any of you.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

drmiller100 said:


> context. I imagine you are trying to learn about people for various reasons, and you'd appreciate a serious answer.
> 
> I'm embarrassed by very little. Shame is something I really dislike, and I'll react readily to someone attempting to shame me or anyone else.
> 
> For sure this touches on vulnerability however. I was a bit annoyed the parrot quoted that into this thread. I didn't put it in here on purpose, and upon reflection, the purpose was to avoid vulnerability.
> 
> I'm actively working on listening to my feelings. Some feelings are more valid or useful or interesting than others. Sad, love, vulnerable, anger, hurt, those feelings are worth feeling.
> 
> Shame, embarrassment, not so much.
> 
> I trust HER with that view into me. I don't trust any of you.


There seems to be a little bit of miscommunication here, since what I quoted is something you posted in this thread and not something Parrot quoted from somewhere else: http://personalitycafe.com/debate-forum/656258-part-iii-psychopathy-empathy-33.html#post23680514

What I'm asking, just to clarify, is whether her laughing at your comment about psychopathic traits embarrassed you a little. Maybe made you feel a little silly for getting it into your head that your a psycho when somebody who supposedly knows you quite intimately - given she's seen you crying, etc. (as per the bit Parrot quoted into this thread) - and is supposedly qualified in this area tells you you're not what you think. I wonder how that feels.


----------



## Parrot

drmiller100 said:


> For sure this touches on vulnerability however. I was a bit annoyed the parrot quoted that into this thread. I didn't put it in here on purpose, and upon reflection, the purpose was to avoid vulnerability.


For context, it didn't occur to me that moving a quote would bother you nor does it register why. It does register that my intent was not to annoy you, and I guess it would if you didn't want to reveal vulnerabilities. My goal was just to ask more about your previous interaction with this lady, with whom you seem fond. I am not sure of what extent psychopaths are capable of having emotional attachment, but it sounds like you have it with her. I have cried, for selfish narcissistic reasons so that others would notice. Or, in the case of some deaths, I got very drunk just so that I could feel something. I'm still curious if you think you're truly psychopathic.


----------



## Parrot

WikiRevolution said:


> @Drunk Parrot, I know you stalked me
> 
> How much would you grant me on a 0-10 psychopathy scale pls?


6-7 which means you're normal, with a slight tendency for mischief.


----------



## TimeWillTell

Drunk Parrot said:


> 6-7 which means you're normal, with a slight tendency for mischief.


lol @ normal  I'm coming at you! :angry:

Would you mind sharing with us where you'd place yourself on the same scale?


----------



## Bunny

WikiRevolution said:


> @Drunk Parrot, I know you stalked me
> 
> How much would you grant me on a 0-10 psychopathy scale pls?


Lol, why the sad puppy face when asking?


----------



## TimeWillTell

Wytch said:


> Lol, why the sad puppy face when asking?


Inside joke with him 

And cuz it's a fun trigger to ask someone I consider an expert on the matter of psychopathy to rate my level of psychopathy with a heart-breaking puppy.


----------



## Parrot

WikiRevolution said:


> lol @ normal  I'm coming at you! :angry:
> 
> Would you mind sharing with us where you'd place yourself on the same scale?


9/10. On my personal 1-10 scale, for all things, I view it like this:

1: <.1%
2: 1%
3: 1-10%
4: 11-25%
5:25-50%
6: 50-75%
7: 75-90%
8: 90-99%
9: 99%
10: >99.9%

The truly fucked up are the destructive criminal psychopaths as "10s" while the subclinical psychopaths are "9s". Both are in the top 1%. People who are "8s" are other cluster B types.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Crying and having emotional attachment to people isn't non-psychopathic. Self-pity is something they're capable of. 

The emotional attachment is just.. different. And I struggle to really pinpoint the difference because I'm sure all relationships function in this way on some level- but basically it's 'What do you do for me?' Which set of reasons seems more psychopathic to you?:

She makes me laugh; He makes me feel safe; They are so interesting to talk to; I feel loved by them;
I like the sense of control; She's a good fuck; He's got lots of money; They'll do anything I want.

At a first glance, you might say the second. The truth is, they are all capable of being experienced by the psychopath. What makes the second list seem so sinister is that it's self-centred in focus: We've decided to talk about how you can *use* them rather than the qualities that you *use*. It's a case of objectification. The personalised first list of traits is no less true, though, and for any one of those reasons listed, the psychopath may feel attached and even upset if they have to lose a person who does one of those things for them. Though, I wonder how this really differs from normal people. I'd say not at all!

So what is different is the nature of the requited feelings. Fundamentally, even if a psychopath enjoys someone's company and cares for them, hurting them to get what they want isn't out of the question. That person's pain isn't really an issue*. If something better comes along, there is an ability to drop somebody instantly and without looking back. A psychopath's attachment is a function of utility: Be valuable to them, even in conventional ways like making them feel loved and they will want to protect you to maintain that.... At least in theory. Their destructive habits tend to meddle with maintaining healthy relationships. Normal people actually feel guilty when they hurt somebody to gain something. A psychopath doesn't. That's the disconnect. 

*Though it can be if it gets in the way of a psychopath's wants and/or they feel it's a violation of their ownership of said person, such as somebody disrespecting them: "That's my girlfriend...", etc. This is the narcissistic element of their attachment - possessive.


----------



## Bunny

WikiRevolution said:


> Inside joke with him
> 
> And cuz it's a fun trigger to ask someone I consider an expert on the matter of psychopathy to rate my level of psychopathy with a heart-breaking puppy.


Okay :tongue: fair enough.

I suppose a sad little puppy would be a good ploy for a psychopath to use against someone.


----------



## Parrot

WikiRevolution said:


> Inside joke with him
> 
> And cuz it's a fun trigger to ask someone I consider an expert on the matter of psychopathy to rate my level of psychopathy with a heart-breaking puppy.


It didn't faze me. I don't care much for animals...but this puppy is cute.


----------



## TimeWillTell

Drunk Parrot said:


> It didn't faze me. I don't care much for animals...but this puppy is cute.


It's a reference to some time in the past when you asked for my opinion on something with a cute puppy. I found it hilarious first, then I still had some urge to answer nicely. I hope it doesn't make me weird


----------



## Parrot

@Occams Chainsaw I noticed that our "thanks received" to "thanks given" ratio is the same: 5:2. Surely we are selfish bastards.


----------



## Parrot

WikiRevolution said:


> It's a reference to some time in the past when you asked for my opinion on something with a cute puppy. I found it hilarious first, then I still had some urge to answer nicely. I hope it doesn't make me weird


It's what makes you a 6-7


----------



## TimeWillTell

Drunk Parrot said:


> It's what makes you a 6-7


Don't you think it'd be a cool idea to create a thread where you rate ppl's psychopathy levels?


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

WikiRevolution said:


> Don't you think it'd be a cool idea to create a thread where you rate ppl's psychopathy levels?


Only if you make an official diploma certifying Parrot a professional forum psychopathy diagnostic expert.


----------



## Bunny

Drunk Parrot said:


> It didn't faze me. I don't care much for animals...but this puppy is cute.


I was thinking of it being used against a more "normal" person because they would like puppies more.


----------



## Parrot

WikiRevolution said:


> Don't you think it'd be a cool idea to create a thread where you rate ppl's psychopathy levels?


No, because I do that automatically. And @Occams Chainsaw we don't need your Te standard operating procedures. We can make up whatever we want!


----------



## TimeWillTell

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Only if you make an official diploma certifying Parrot a professional psychopathy typist.


Thanks for your opinion. I assumed 1-, but you made me think about 2- 

1- But if ppl really want professional advice, they're free to consult. 

2- People who ask for this should know this isn't 'officially approved' as per the OP, but just some psychopathy enthusiast's input.


----------



## Parrot

Wytch said:


> I was thinking of it being used against a more "normal" person because they would like puppies more.


On occasion, I've sent a collection of cute animals to a co-worker to cheer her up (ISFP). Sure, I know that it perks her up knowing that I "care for her and my utilitarian purpose is her good mood and favor towards me is beneficial. So remember, anyone who uses cute puppies to entice you is a bloodthirsty psychopath!


----------



## Bunny

Drunk Parrot said:


> On occasion, I've sent a collection of cute animals to a co-worker to cheer her up (ISFP). Sure, I know that it perks her up knowing that I "care for her and my utilitarian purpose is her good mood and favor towards me is beneficial. So remember, anyone who uses cute puppies to entice you is a bloodthirsty psychopath!


Thank you for the heads up :tongue: although... I have done that for people before in order to cheer them up.

Wouldn't thanking more people be beneficial to you too? Lol.


----------



## Parrot

WikiRevolution said:


> Thanks for your opinion. I assumed 1-, but you made me think about 2-
> 
> 1- But if ppl really want professional advice, they're free to consult.
> 
> 2- People who ask for this should know this isn't 'officially approved' as per the OP, but just some psychopathy enthusiast's input.


To be fair, he knows more than me. I am the Darth Vader to his Emperor Palpatine. And by that, it means I have a little good in me and he's capable of using lighting hands.


----------



## Parrot

Wytch said:


> Thank you for the heads up :tongue: although... I have done that for people before in order to cheer them up.
> 
> Wouldn't thanking more people be beneficial to you too? Lol.


Like real life, I thank enough to show that I care, but mostly I just forget. I get complemented more in real life, too, than I give out. It's not like I consciously decide "fuck other people", I'm just rarely thinking about their needs. I complement or thank if it's useful or if I actually like what they did/typed. I told my friend of 7 years, with whom I work, that he deserved his promotion because he's competent. If I didn't think that, then I would just tell him congrats or something empty.


----------



## Bunny

Drunk Parrot said:


> Like real life, I thank enough to show that I care, but mostly I just forget. I get complemented more in real life, too, than I give out. It's not like I consciously decide "fuck other people", I'm just rarely thinking about their needs. I complement or thank if it's useful or if I actually like what they did/typed. I told my friend of 7 years, with whom I work, that he deserved his promotion because he's competent. If I didn't think that, then I would just tell him congrats or something empty.


I thank something if I like it too, I don't really thank in order for people to like me.
I'm just a thank whore XD
I'm not great at compliments either but it's only because I'm bad at them. 
I try but unless I'm being truly genuine, they usually come out awkward.

Well, that's not necessarily different than someone complimenting someone just to get their approval.
It's probably better I would think, rather than people giving empty compliments.



Edit: Lightning hands would be so cool


----------



## Animal

I love this thread, and the OP post. It is informative and honest, and great insight into a sociopath's mind. But I wanted to explain one facet of the OP which was not addressed.

Disclaimer: I did not read the responses, so I apologize if this issue has been addressed already.



Drunk Parrot said:


> The only people I respect, as far as their empathy goes, is the one who empathizes with the unempathizable.


I agree that empathy is inconsistent. Empathy also comes in higher doses where people we love, or know well, are concerned. Most people, if placed into a position of power, have an easier time dismissing 'statistics' than dismissing a person before their face who is suffering. This is part of why I am an advocate of small, localized governments having more power than a huge, central one.

I am an extreme empath. I will not claim that my empathy is consistent. I have tremendous empathy for the suffering of strangers as well as friends. I can go on facebook and see a post about a starving child or a lost dog and cry. I can also cry hearing the struggles of my friends, and be touched enough to incorporate them into my novels or songs. No matter how angry I am at someone, when I hear their side of the story, I feel a sensation in my heart.. I feel like I am that person, and I too am suffering. It is a great burden to bear. This is why, when I got to know a sociopath locally, I wrote a song about how I envied his existence and wished I could be like that. I wished I could use people and think nothing of it.. I would have given anything at that time to get rid of all my shame, guilt and feelings and just, for one day, be free of it. Sometimes, it is overwhelming. 

I felt empathy reading your post. I felt like it must be lonely or, a dry feeling inside, what it must be like to watch everyone else connecting on a level that you can't. I might not have experienced it the same way you do, but in my own mind, I was inside your 'heart' at that time. It evokes actual images and memories for me, and makes me feel a certain way physically.

I'm putting my extreme empathy to use, channeling it creatively - I am writing a novel in which a major character might be a sociopath; is definitely a narcissist. He becomes a powerful person and does a lot of awful things, but he's a sympathetic character, because I wrote him and I feel his pain. It confuses and upsets some of my readers, that they can feel it too, that they LOVE this character.


So, being that I am such an extreme empath... I can comment on this.


I do empathize with the unempathizable. _I can't help that_ - it's a natural part of my existence. It's as natural as breathing for me. Or seeing color, since you used that analogy.


The problem is, because of my empathy, narcissists and sociopaths have preyed on me several times throughout my life. I've had the life drained out of me being the support system for a lonely narcissist. I've had to fight hard not to lose valuable friendships, relationships and resources, including my living situation, due to the actions of sociopaths who , at one time, triggered tremendous empathy in me.

So how do I survive this way? I shut off empathy. That doesn't mean I want to watch them get stoned to death, or I wish them harm. It just means I want them the fuck away from me, but I realize it won't be as simple as telling them or asking them. WHat I have to do is wall off my heart and make it unavailable to them. I have to shut off empathy in order to hold on to my health, my resources, my good friendships, my life. I have a chronic illness and stress can make a person sicker. Having someone feed off me emotionally, use me, trample on me and care nothing for my feelings, creates stress, and can leave me feeling drained and physically ill. I have the kind of empathy that makes me physically ill, which is why I have to be in a certain state of mind to even read a book or watch a movie, so it won't hurt my heart.


I'm 35 years old and I am a trauma survivor. I should have died from illness at 16 but I am thriving. I've lived in dangerous situations by myself, even though I speak in a whisper and have other physical symptoms, and depend on medicine to survive. I'm a small woman but I have scared off attackers on the street by simply looking too fucking scary when they tried to take me down. They saw I wasnt going down without a fight and left me alone.. I wasn't worth the trouble. I have that kind of look in my eyes. And I have tremendous strength of character. My empathy has not weakened me. I have learned to use it as a tool to figure people out. At times, I even asked myself if that makes me a sociopath.


So, to address this concept you introduced - about empathizing with the unempathizable - I don't anymore. It's not that I can shut off my empathy, but I have a brain, and I can force myself to shut off to them. I only need to do this if someone is too close: family, roommates, co-workers, etc. If I can't get them out of my proximity, I have to shut off my empathy to them so taht they can't take advantage of me and drain the life from me (or my other loved ones). This requires tremendous resources for me to do. It creates anger, hostility, coldness. It grates on my freedom to be the open, loving person that I am. It forces me to shut them out, at the sacrifice of my very soul... my tremendous automatic empathy for all living beings. It creates tension inside my stomach that never goes away until that person is out of my life. And sometimes, I can't get rid of that person, due to circumstances out of my control, so I simply have to be on edge. If the choice is letting them drain my lifeblood or shutting off part of myself, then I will choose shutting off every time. They are not worth the consequences it causes to empathize with them; yet my empathy is like seeing color. So I have to tell myself when I look at them that they are not in color; that they are black and white. I have to shut off a function inside myself. This is very hard to describe, but it's difficult. And it's depressing.

I'm very good at shutting people out, and turning off my empathy out of necessity. And often, narcissists (as opposed to sociopaths) are really good at guilt tripping and shoving their pain at people, glorifying their own suffering, really pulling heart strings to induce guilt and empathy. So I really have to be OFF, to protect myself from slowly being consumed by them, like vampires.

Some people might see me as being harsh. They can be shocked how angry, unforgiving and cold I can be to these people. I will say again, I never HARM them, I simply stop them from harming me. I don't buy into their shit.


But it comes at a great cost to me. I shut them out, but there are so many energy-vampires, narcissists, sociopaths and the like in the world. waiting to feed off empathy like mine. It costs me something to have to shut off a very real part of myself. It also costs me socially, because other people don't get why I don't give any shits about this person's pain and suffering. It's not that I don't give any shits, it's that I have to say that, over and over, and convince myself of it, so that they can't destroy me. It depresses me that I feel like this is necessary in order to survive; that I've had to do it so many times in my life; that I've had to convince others to do it in order to save themselves. That has caused me a lot of suffering. 

So, when you say that people can't empathize with the unempathizable, thus you don't respect them because it's inconsistent.. it might help to factor in the cost that 'shutting off' has on them. I'm not talking about people who cheer while a stranger is being stoned to death, or 'groupthink' - that disgusts me too. I'm talking about people who prioritize their own life force over someone who wants to drain it from anyone they can. People who are strong enough to defend what is theirs..who have enough self-respect to protect their lifeblood from vampires. That takes tremendous STRENGTH for an empath to do, and I respect it.


----------



## Bunny

Since I cannot edit for some reason... I was also going to say that I do sometimes "thank" a post if I feel there's no reason to reply to it but I thank it so that they know I read it.


----------



## drmiller100

@Animal

>>>I felt like it must be lonely or, a dry feeling inside, what it must be like to watch everyone else connecting on a level that you can't.

It be Normal. 

I wonder what it is like to be such an emotional roller coaster and making decisions based upon how you FEEL about someone. Fucking crazy to me, but oh so fascinating to watch.

As you grow older, and work to learn to turn the empath off, and build guards, and protections, and use (for lack of a better word) logic to make decisions, I'm likewise trying to tear down my walls, open ******, and allow people in, to make decisions on feelings. 

For awhile I let too many of the wrong types of people in. They stepped into my soul and called me passionless and robotic and trampled about, and I wondered, but at least I "felt". 

lately I've been MUCH better at recognizing some people will try not to hurt me as they wander my soul. 

To be fair, I only let females into my soul. Never a male. 

As always Animal, nothing but respect for you, and I do much appreciate your help and advice and friendship over the years. You are definitely a part of the reason I am a better person than I was 5 years ago.


----------



## drmiller100

Occams Chainsaw said:


> There seems to be a little bit of miscommunication here, since what I quoted is something you posted in this thread and not something Parrot quoted from somewhere else: http://personalitycafe.com/debate-forum/656258-part-iii-psychopathy-empathy-33.html#post23680514
> 
> What I'm asking, just to clarify, is whether her laughing at your comment about psychopathic traits embarrassed you a little. Maybe made you feel a little silly for getting it into your head that your a psycho when somebody who supposedly knows you quite intimately - given she's seen you crying, etc. (as per the bit Parrot quoted into this thread) - and is supposedly qualified in this area tells you you're not what you think. I wonder how that feels.



yes, Occam didn't bring another thread in, yes, Parrot did. yes, my comments were directed at parrot, not you. yes, i used an example of how i FELT about parrot's deed bugged me, and why. 

No, i'm not annoyed or anything at parrot. 

I'm not embarrassed by much. Certainly not by her. I am truly clueless about some things, and if I don't have good friends to help me, how else am I going to learn?

It was dispassionate. It was learning a new way of looking at special relatively paradoxes. It was a perspective shift. 

It didn't "Feel" anything.


----------



## drmiller100

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Normal people actually feel guilty when they hurt somebody to gain something. A psychopath doesn't. That's the disconnect.
> 
> *Though it can be if it gets in the way of a psychopath's wants and/or they feel it's a violation of their ownership of said person, such as somebody disrespecting them: "That's my girlfriend...", etc. This is the narcissistic element of their attachment - possessive.


the tests I posted earlier suggest psychopath is actually two scales, both of which are sliding. I'm further along on one of them than the vast majority of people. The reading I did suggests my scale is "learned behavior", and I know why and how I got where I am, and I know how and why I'm crawling back up that scale. 

I RARELY feel guilt. Shame, I explode back at. These are defense mechanisms learned at a very young age, and I'm not really interested in changing this about me. 

What I CAN do is take the hard path. I can try to help those who wish my help, in the ways which will help them. Sometimes I help someone and they end up hating me. An example is a friend who was a victim of DV, and I sent his sad little ass away, and she hates me to this day for that, and I'm ok. 

The hard path is letting those I love make their own mistakes. The hard path is following the rules and succeeding anyway. The hard path is forging the self deceipt and excuses and denials out of my soul. 

The hardest part of all is listening to my heart, and letting it be loved. I have found satisfaction in helping someone without them knowing. I have found satisfaction in making an evil go away from an innocent. 

making evil go away from an innocent is a pretty goddamn fun fucking hobby.


----------



## Parrot

Animal said:


> I love this thread, and the OP post. It is informative and honest, and great insight into a sociopath's mind.


First thing, semantics. I am a psychopath. A sociopath has repressed emotions, except positive ones like anger or happiness, in order to live a guilt free, self-centered life. I've never repressed emotions. I have narcissistic attachments so I might get angry if someone challenges my ego. The real emotions I have are subtle, fleeting, and I usually can't repeat them. I occasionally love my mother, but could go weeks without thinking about her. Talking to her on the phone feels no different than talking to a customer service rep, somewhere, except my mother knows me (exponentially) better. I _know_ I love her I just rarely _feel_ it, which means my behavior towards her is not motivated by emotions. Also, part of being a psychopath is knowing that I'll never be able to change it. I can adapt behavior but I can't force myself to feel more than the 1% of the time I do. Well, maybe I can bump it to 2%.



> I agree that empathy is inconsistent.


Pretend I quoted the rest. Honestly, from the OP and your words, we are using 2 different definitions of what empathy is. I didn't necessarily know it, 3 months ago, but my idea of empathy was cognitive. When I say the "unempathizable", I am referring to when people cognitively view someone as a monster or subhuman. I might emotionally perceive someone as an object, but objects have value. Do people not view lint differently than a basketball? I view all people as human, even murderers, rapists, and democrats . The point is, I can't stand it when people turn off their cognitive empathy. I can't criticize how affective empathy works. I don't care if someone feels bad for me, but they better either try to understand or admit they can't dammit. 



> So, to address this concept you introduced - about empathizing with the unempathizable - I don't anymore.


I agree that you shouldn't, with affective empathy. If someone is constantly taking advantage of you, feeling sorry for them just enables them. Attempting to understand their motivation and behavior, however, is something I think you_ should_ do. Also, their behavior doesn't eliminate them as a human. 

To summarize, a murderer deserves execution. But I hate it that people have to view the murderer as subhuman in order to carry out the execution. They are still human, but they lost their right to live and society taking care of them. It is neither sad nor joyous to watch them die. That disconnect is what makes a psychopath's life frustrating as emotional inconsistency makes "good" people view other humans in a worse lens than a psychopath's. As far as the color imagery, I'd say a psychopath is color-blind. I can perceive the shapes and the shade, but the diversity of colors (emotions) is not important to me.


----------



## sinaasappel

You have completed the Levenson Self-Report Psychopathy Scale. 

The LSRP measures two scales. 

Scores range from 1 (low) to 5 (high). 

Your score from primary psychopathy has been calculated as 2.5. Primary psychopathy is the affective aspects of psychopathy; a lack of empathy for other people and tolerance for antisocial orientations. 

Your score from secondary psychopathy has been calculated as 3.8. Secondary psychopathy is the antisocial aspects of psychopathy; rule breaking and a lack of effort towards socially rewarded behavior. 

With two scores, results of the LSRP are very suitable for being plotted. Below is the distribution of how other people who have taken this test have scored. 


You score for primary psychopathy was higher than 64.41% of people who have taken this test. 

You score for secondary psychopathy was higher than 92.14% of people who have taken this test. 










Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


----------



## sinaasappel

I don't know if I should take this with a grain of salt


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


----------



## TimeWillTell

GIA Diamonds said:


> I don't know if I should take this with a grain of salt
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


You surely identified room for improvement 

We seem pretty similar aahahaa. Good job crazy! <3


----------



## sinaasappel

WikiRevolution said:


> You surely identified room for improvement
> 
> We seem pretty similar aahahaa. Good job crazy! <3


Thanks nutty
It's just so conflicting with what I believe I do and what is being portrayed it makes me wonder if I use fe at all


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


----------



## TimeWillTell

GIA Diamonds said:


> Thanks nutty
> It's just so conflicting with what I believe I do and what is being portrayed it makes me wonder if I use fe at all
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


Or if it's just a tertiary shit


----------



## sinaasappel

WikiRevolution said:


> Or if it's just a tertiary shit


You just literally solved my problem
Thanks


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


----------



## TimeWillTell

GIA Diamonds said:


> You just literally solved my problem
> Thanks
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


Most probably not solved, but rather pointed out. 

Good luck!


----------



## sinaasappel

WikiRevolution said:


> Most probably not solved, but rather pointed out.
> 
> Good luck!


Don't make me question 


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


----------



## TimeWillTell

GIA Diamonds said:


> Don't make me question
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


lol, cuz you wanna sleep?


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

You have completed the Levenson Self-Report Psychopathy Scale. 

The LSRP measures two scales. 
Scores range from 1 (low) to 5 (high). 

Your score from primary psychopathy has been calculated as 5. Primary psychopathy is the affective aspects of psychopathy; a lack of empathy for other people and tolerance for antisocial orientations. 
Your score from secondary psychopathy has been calculated as 1.4. Secondary psychopathy is the antisocial aspects of psychopathy; rule breaking and a lack of effort towards socially rewarded behavior.

You score for primary psychopathy was higher than 98% of people who have taken this test. 
You score for secondary psychopathy was higher than 4.60% of people who have taken this test.

@GIA Diamonds
Lack of Fe doesn't mean a high Factor 2 score.


----------



## sinaasappel

Occams Chainsaw said:


> You have completed the Levenson Self-Report Psychopathy Scale.
> 
> The LSRP measures two scales.
> Scores range from 1 (low) to 5 (high).
> 
> Your score from primary psychopathy has been calculated as 5. Primary psychopathy is the affective aspects of psychopathy; a lack of empathy for other people and tolerance for antisocial orientations.
> Your score from secondary psychopathy has been calculated as 1.4. Secondary psychopathy is the antisocial aspects of psychopathy; rule breaking and a lack of effort towards socially rewarded behavior.
> 
> You score for primary psychopathy was higher than 98% of people who have taken this test.
> You score for secondary psychopathy was higher than 4.60% of people who have taken this test.
> 
> @GIA Diamonds
> Lack of Fe doesn't mean a high Factor 2 score.


Jeez! dude, I don't even know what to say to your score for primary psychopathy


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

GIA Diamonds said:


> Jeez! dude, I don't even know what to say to your score for primary psychopathy
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


I don't know but you our secondary psychopathy score is higher than 92% of test takers. Surely that's just as bad. Certainly, it's much higher than mine. Congratulations, I guess!


----------



## sinaasappel

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Congratulations?
> 
> Your secondary psychopathy score is higher than 92% of test takers. Surely that's just as bad. Certainly, it's much higher than mine!


The shock factor is just there


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

GIA Diamonds said:


> The shock factor is just there
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


Its a self report. It's more or less meaningless and based on your own perception of yourself.


----------



## sinaasappel

O ccams Chainsaw said:


> Its a self report. It's more or less meaningless and based on your own perception of yourself.


all just have self esteem issues then



Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

GIA Diamonds said:


> all just have self esteem issues then
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


If you look at the quiz after the official test, you'll see they're looking to weed out socially isolated teens with questions like : 'Do you collect trading cards?', etc. They realise it makes up a lot of the test and skews it with 'I'm a psychopath, AMA'-types.


----------



## sinaasappel

Do you collect trading cards???


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


----------



## Parrot

_You have completed the Levenson Self-Report Psychopathy Scale. 

The LSRP measures two scales. 

Scores range from 1 (low) to 5 (high). 

Your score from primary psychopathy has been calculated as 4.8. Primary psychopathy is the affective aspects of psychopathy; a lack of empathy for other people and tolerance for antisocial orientations. 

Your score from secondary psychopathy has been calculated as 2.7. Secondary psychopathy is the antisocial aspects of psychopathy; rule breaking and a lack of effort towards socially rewarded behavior. 

You score for primary psychopathy was higher than 96.79% of people who have taken this test. 

You score for secondary psychopathy was higher than 58.86% of people who have taken this test. _

Let's look at some questions. Note: after taking the test, I went back and changed answers for the different questions to see how they're scored.


> PRIMARY: Success is based on survival of the fittest; I am not concerned about the losers.


I scored myself 4/5. There are many factors for success. I don't hate the "losers of success", just don't care to think about them.



> PRIMARY: For me, what's right is whatever I can get away with.


5/5. I'm not out committing felonies, but perception is reality when it comes to everyday life. I wouldn't stress about things people don't know about.



> PRIMARY: Making a lot of money is my most important goal.


5/5 It's not even _that_ important to me. But it's my only real measurable goal. I was sometimes broke, in college, and had to charm my way into getting others to buy me beer, for example, on some weekends. I wouldn't be the only sober one at the frat house. Although it was fun at times, to be wheelin' & dealin', paying for my own things is much simpler.



> In today's world, I feel justified in doing anything I can get away with to succeed.


5/5. I'm not that adamant about it as if it's me vs the world. I justify all that I do, however, so fully agree.



> SECONDARY:I quickly lose interest in tasks I start.


2/5 I usually only "start" tasks that I want to so I can complete them. Things like cleaning or taking care of responsibilities, I just generally avoid. I wouldn't have "interest" in them anyway.


> SECONDARY: I am often bored.


3/5 I can amuse myself within my mind. Sensor psychopaths really got it rough.


> PRIMARY: I let others worry about higher values; my main concern is with the bottom line.


5/5 I'm not saying ethics is worthless, it's just not my focus. 


> PRIMARY: People who are stupid enough to get ripped off usually deserve it.


5/5 I'm thinking of terms of basic scams. People who are constantly being fooled might want to figure things out sooner rather than later. Or with bad psycho/socio relationships, many of the victims were low hanging fruit to begin with.


> PRIMARY: Looking out for myself is my top priority.


5/5


> SECONDARY: I have been in a lot of shouting matches with other people.





> SECONDARY: When I get frustrated, I often "let off steam" by blowing my top.


1/5 for both. Anger is rare and people probably wouldn't notice if I was.


> PRIMARY: I often admire a really clever scam.


5/5 Gotta respect a masterpiece. I also read this as quality trolling or any other anti-social behavior.


> PRIMARY: I enjoy manipulating other people's feelings.


5/5 It's interesting to see the effect I have on others. Hell, after learning Enneagram, I've been trying to manipulate others into moving towards integration. Sure it might help them, but my motive is scientific curiosity and destiny what I can control.
@GIA Diamonds you're jealous that OC is an A+ student while you flunked out of primary school.


----------



## sinaasappel

Drunk Parrot said:


> _You have completed the Levenson Self-Report Psychopathy Scale.
> 
> The LSRP measures two scales.
> 
> Scores range from 1 (low) to 5 (high).
> 
> Your score from primary psychopathy has been calculated as 4.8. Primary psychopathy is the affective aspects of psychopathy; a lack of empathy for other people and tolerance for antisocial orientations.
> 
> Your score from secondary psychopathy has been calculated as 2.7. Secondary psychopathy is the antisocial aspects of psychopathy; rule breaking and a lack of effort towards socially rewarded behavior.
> 
> You score for primary psychopathy was higher than 96.79% of people who have taken this test.
> 
> You score for secondary psychopathy was higher than 58.86% of people who have taken this test. _
> 
> Let's look at some questions. Note: after taking the test, I went back and changed answers for the different questions to see how they're scored.
> 
> 
> I scored myself 4/5. There are many factors for success. I don't hate the "losers of success", just don't care to think about them.
> 
> 
> 
> 5/5. I'm not out committing felonies, but perception is reality when it comes to everyday life. I wouldn't stress about things people don't know about.
> 
> 
> 
> 5/5 It's not even _that_ important to me. But it's my only real measurable goal. I was sometimes broke, in college, and had to charm my way into getting others to buy me beer, for example, on some weekends. I wouldn't be the only sober one at the frat house. Although it was fun at times, to be wheelin' & dealin', paying for my own things is much simpler.
> 
> 
> 5/5. I'm not that adamant about it as if it's me vs the world. I justify all that I do, however, so fully agree.
> 
> 
> 2/5 I usually only "start" tasks that I want to so I can complete them. Things like cleaning or taking care of responsibilities, I just generally avoid. I wouldn't have "interest" in them anyway.
> 
> 3/5 I can amuse myself within my mind. Sensor psychopaths really got it rough.
> 
> 5/5 I'm not saying ethics is worthless, it's just not my focus.
> 
> 5/5 I'm thinking of terms of basic scams. People who are constantly being fooled might want to figure things out sooner rather than later. Or with bad psycho/socio relationships, many of the victims were low hanging fruit to begin with.
> 
> 5/5
> 
> 
> 1/5 for both. Anger is rare and people probably wouldn't notice if I was.
> 
> 5/5 Gotta respect a masterpiece. I also read this as quality trolling or any other anti-social behavior.
> 
> 5/5 It's interesting to see the effect I have on others. Hell, after learning Enneagram, I've been trying to manipulate others into moving towards integration. Sure it might help them, but my motive is scientific curiosity and destiny what I can control.
> @GIA Diamonds you're jealous that OC is an A+ student while you flunked out of primary school.


 @Drunk Parrot you are always coming at me sideways:laughing::laughing:


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

Parrot, how psychopathic would you rate OC on a scale from 1-10?^^


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

WikiRevolution said:


> Interesting, isn't he more of a primary psychopath?


Depends on what you mean. There are very muddled definitions even in academia right now, since it's had a bit of an overhaul recently with the introduction of new epigenetic theory.


----------



## TimeWillTell

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Depends on what you mean. There are very muddled definitions even in academia right now, since it's had a bit of an overhaul recently with the introduction of new epigenetic theory.


True that psychopathy studies seem to have a hard time harmonizing. What an irony 

Some refer to it as psychopath (primary) vs sociopath (secondary).


----------



## Parrot

Occams Chainsaw said:


> While we're at it, lets discuss other psychopaths in the media. Any takers?


I remember chefs as a top 10 psychopath career. Guy seems like a solid Te psychopath.

Martin Shkreli
Turing Pharmaceuticals CEO Martin Shkreli defends 5,000 percent price hike on Daraprim - CBS News
comedian Anthony Jeselnik





No one good video for him. Some comedians play the heartless asshole card. He actually is and comedian is a positive outlet haha. His shtick is so outlandishly offensive, which is great because he doesn't even have to hide the fact it's real.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

@WikiRevolution
Other reasons: 
-Preemptive strike - "Told you... Only got yourself to blame; You still carried on with me anyway-- You wanted this.";
-Indulging someone's fantasies - Some like that dark romance trope: being dominated and owned by somebody who could hurt them if they wanted. This only tends to work in the girl's mind because "Well, he won't hurt me... I'm his precious.";
-Nothing to lose - It's interesting to see how people react. Internet is a big one;
-Chateau de la Narcissus au Autiste - "I have no feelings. I'm an apex predator. Fear me."


----------



## TimeWillTell

@Occams Chainsaw

Do you have any interesting resource on the latest development of psychopathy studies? Cuz I've read a lot of unsatisfying stuff 

Any important research? I've seen that Hare was influential, but it's quite old. Anything more up to date would be appreciated.

Also, are psychopaths capable of self-diagnosis? (Apparently they're not irrational, so could they measure the difference between what's socially accepted and moral and what's not?)


----------



## sinaasappel

WikiRevolution said:


> @Occams Chainsaw
> 
> Do you have any interesting resource on the latest development of psychopathy studies? Cuz I've read a lot of unsatisfying stuff
> 
> Any important research? I've seen that Hare was influential, but it's quite old. Anything more up to date would be appreciated.
> 
> Also, are psychopaths capable of self-diagnosis? (Apparently they're not irrational, so could they measure the difference between what's socially accepted and moral and what's not?)


I would assume it depends 


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

WikiRevolution said:


> @Occams Chainsaw
> 
> Do you have any interesting resource on the latest development of psychopathy studies? Cuz I've read a lot of unsatisfying stuff
> 
> Any important research? I've seen that Hare was influential, but it's quite old. Anything more up to date would be appreciated.


Frontiers | Epigenetic regulation of the oxytocin receptor gene: implications for behavioral neuroscience | Neuroendocrine Science

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?aid=9155035


> Child conduct problems (CPs) are a robust predictor of adult mental health; the concurrence of callous–unemotional (CU) traits confers specific risk for psychopathy. Psychopathy may be related to disturbances in the oxytocin (OXT) system. Evidence suggests that epigenetic changes in the OXT receptor gene (OXTR) are associated with lower circulating OXT and social–cognitive difficulties. We tested methylation levels of OXTR in 4- to 16-year-old males who met DSM criteria for a diagnosis of oppositional–defiant or conduct disorder and were stratified by CU traits and age. Measures were DNA methylation levels of six CpG sites in the promoter region of the OXTR gene (where a CpG site is a cytosine nucleotide occurs next to a guanine nucleotide in the linear sequence of bases along its lenth, linked together by phosphate binding), and OXT blood levels. High CU traits were associated with greater methylation of the OXTR gene for two cytosine nucleotide and guanine nucleotide phosphate linked sites and lower circulating OXT in older males. Higher methylation correlated with lower OXT levels. We conclude that greater methylation of OXTR characterizes adolescent males with high levels of CU and CPs, and this methylation is associated with lower circulating OXT and functional impairment in interpersonal empathy. The results add genetic evidence that high CU traits specify a distinct subgroup within CP children, and they suggest models of psychopathy may be informed by further identification of these epigenetic processes and their functional significance.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3970241/


> Facial expressions play a critical role in social interactions by eliciting rapid responses in the observer. Failure to perceive and experience a normal range and depth of emotion seriously impact interpersonal communication and relationships. As has been demonstrated across a number of domains, abnormal emotion processing in individuals with psychopathy plays a key role in their lack of empathy. However, the neuroimaging literature is unclear as to whether deficits are specific to particular emotions such as fear and perhaps sadness. Moreover, findings are inconsistent across studies. In the current experiment, eighty adult incarcerated males scoring high, medium, and low on the Hare Psychopathy Checklist-Revised (PCL-R) underwent fMRI scanning while viewing dynamic facial expressions of fear, sadness, happiness and pain. Participants who scored high on the PCL-R showed a reduction in neuro-hemodynamic response to all four categories of facial expressions in the face processing network (inferior occipital gyrus, fusiform gyrus, STS) as well as the extended network (inferior frontal gyrus and orbitofrontal cortex), which supports a pervasive deficit across emotion domains. Unexpectedly, the response in dorsal insula to fear, sadness and pain was greater in psychopaths than non-psychopaths. Importantly, the orbitofrontal cortex and ventromedial prefrontal cortex, regions critically implicated in affective and motivated behaviors, were significantly less active in individuals with psychopathy during the perception of all four emotional expressions.


[Psychopathic personality in women. Diagnostics and experimental findings in the forensic setting and the business world]. - PubMed - NCBI


> Highly psychopathic women are rare in the context of forensic psychiatry; however, the concept of psychopathy plays an important role in diagnostics, for court expertises as well as for treatment. Another so far neglected yet relevant field is the business world. The so-called successful female psychopaths are characterized by highly psychopathic traits but low antisocial behavior, at least with reference to criminal behavior. The basis for investigating and interpreting gender differences is the assessment of psychopathy. Gender differences have been repeatedly demonstrated, especially in the assessment of antisocial behavior and the differentiation of borderline personality disorder and psychopathy which have to be addressed. Group comparisons based on these diagnostic methods found lower inhibitory deficits but less aggressive behavior in female participants with respect to the first main symptom category. For the second symptom category, emotional detachment, so far there are almost no findings reporting gender differences but only few direct gender comparisons have been carried out. However, highly psychopathic women from the general population demonstrate a stronger correlation between psychopathic traits and self-perception as negotiation partner compared to men: they make more use of manipulation and perceive themselves as more powerful in negotiation situations. Future studies should address the diagnostic variability, direct gender comparisons in experimental tasks and the relationship between psychopathic traits, the core symptom categories and career-related success.


Particularly interesting because it discusses psychopathy vs antisocial behaviours ^



> Also, are psychopaths capable of self-diagnosis? (Apparently they're not irrational, so could they measure the difference between what's socially accepted and moral and what's not?)


They're not absolutely rational either, whatever that means. They're not insane, we can say. So yes, possible. They'd need to know what psychopathy is first, of course. How many really know? Academics would say noone does!

Morality is an easy enough construct to understand intellectually - there's just no reason for them to abide by it without a conscience.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Drunk Parrot said:


> I think that is a main difference between psychopaths and sociopaths. The latter group is much more intentional as if they seek their identity from it.


Left this alone because I have no clue. Wish I were an expert.

I tend to like to attribute these things to the style of narcissism the person has. When you know which way his ego is oriented, you can predict a lot about their relationships/attachments.

What about sociopaths makes you think they'd do this?


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

GIA Diamonds said:


> I would assume it depends
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


My first answer actually started like that. Introspection is key here. 

People attribute this to introversion (Ji or Pi) but Jung says introspection is a function of intuition. Maybe intuitive psychopaths are more likely to know than sensor ones.

As unpopular as this will be, Jung's comments about introspection and intuition imply that intuitives are more sentient than sensors and in turn we can say sensors are more animal-like/primitive


----------



## TimeWillTell

OC:
Epigenetic mutation: Are there any hypothesis on the causes of such an epigenetic mutation? It's interesting that psychopathy was thought to be linked with childhood events. OMG, I should stop my train of thoughts now  (but epigenetics seem passionating)

Facial expression: reminds me of mirror neurons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron

I m curious, since you said that having a poor Fe wasn't the cause of being a "secondary" psychopath according to the PCL-R scale. 

Even though I know it's not the whole picture and that it's just my unrefined opinion, it seems to me that Te>Fi lean more towards primary psychopathy and Ti>Fe more secondary. Granted we talk about the psychopathy scale and not the clinical cases, wouldn't that mean that with improving the F counterpart to the T function, the psychopathy score would decrease?


----------



## Parrot

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Left this alone because I have no clue. Wish I were an expert.
> 
> I tend to like to attribute these things to the style of narcissism the person has. When you know which way his ego is oriented, you can predict a lot about their relationships/attachments.
> 
> What about sociopaths makes you think they'd do this?


Actually you're probably right about narc styles playing more of a factor. I just assumed since sociopaths have a stronger emotional capacity they'd have stronger urges.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

WikiRevolution said:


> OC:
> Epigenetic mutation: Are there any hypothesis on the causes of such an epigenetic mutation? It's interesting that psychopathy was thought to be linked with childhood events. OMG, I should stop my train of thoughts now  (but epigenetics seem passionating)


To trigger psychopathy, we think abuse/neglect. You'll note that you need the relevant gene to trigger the psychopathy in the first place, as per epigenetics. Tells you that even with perfect environmental conditions you might just produce somebody with PTSD if they don't have the correct biology.



> Facial expression: reminds me of mirror neurons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron
> 
> I m curious, since you said that having a poor Fe wasn't the cause of being a "secondary" psychopath according to the PCL-R scale.


Was just a joke about being INTJ and in turn trying to make out that GIA doesn't have an excuse for her psychopathy in MBTI. I mirror just fine. People comment on it. "You've gotten into my head"; "We're soul mates [also kindred spirits recently]"; "I feel like I've known you forever" ... etc. 



> Even though I know it's not the whole picture and that it's just my unrefined opinion, it seems to me that Te>Fi lean more towards primary psychopathy and Ti>Fe more secondary. Granted we talk about the psychopathy scale and not the clinical cases, wouldn't that mean that with *improving the F counterpart to the T function*, the psychopathy score would decrease?


No idea how that would work but I doubt it.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Drunk Parrot said:


> Actually you're probably right about narc styles playing more of a factor. I just assumed since sociopaths have a stronger emotional capacity they'd have stronger urges.


Ah. Narcissists are the worst. They'll suck everything out of you. Everything. And then when you're on the floor begging, weeping and crying, they won't throw you away out of disgust like a psychopath, they'll keep you on the floor because it makes them feel powerful. And when you finally get away from them they'll keep drifting back into your life to check in on their hold on you.


----------



## sinaasappel

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Ah. Narcissists are the worst. They'll suck everything out of you. Everything. And then when you're on the floor begging, weeping and crying, they won't throw you away out of disgust like a psychopath, they'll keep you on the floor because it makes them feel powerful. And when you finally get away from them they'll keep drifting back into your life to check in on their hold on you.


That's me low key

Happy holidays everyone

I'm at a Christmas party


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

GIA Diamonds said:


> That's me low key
> 
> Happy holidays everyone
> 
> I'm at a Christmas party
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


Put that 92nd percentile psychopathy to use, GIA Jane. I wanna see you wreck havoc/


----------



## TimeWillTell

^
Pegi 18 humor there


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

I was conscious that the chicken man might come in and correct my purposely miscorrect spelling joke again like when I wrote 'pretator' and he came in like "Yeah, boy, who's your daddy psychopath?!" Glad you caught it before he did[n't]. Thanks.


----------



## Bunny

You have completed the Levenson Self-Report Psychopathy Scale.

The LSRP measures two scales.

Scores range from 1 (low) to 5 (high).

Your score from primary psychopathy has been calculated as 3.9. Primary psychopathy is the affective aspects of psychopathy; a lack of empathy for other people and tolerance for antisocial orientations.

Your score from secondary psychopathy has been calculated as 4. Secondary psychopathy is the antisocial aspects of psychopathy; rule breaking and a lack of effort towards socially rewarded behavior.

With two scores, results of the LSRP are very suitable for being plotted. Below is the distribution of how other people who have taken this test have scored.


You score for primary psychopathy was higher than 89.78% of people who have taken this test.

You score for secondary psychopathy was higher than 94.64% of people who have taken this test. 


^
Haha.
Oh, please.


----------



## TimeWillTell

Another test:

Dark Triad Personality Test









I m either a very nice person or I can lie pretty well, even to myself... Or I could have 2 different modes and ramp up my game. Idk.

Damn, that was narcissistic :shocked:


----------



## sinaasappel

................
I'm fairly crazy
................
Some of the questions are a bit....I don't even know, of course I'm going to want to affiliate with important people I'm a senior in high school, there isn't time for wrong decisions; also I'll give the credit to those who've helped me.


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


----------



## TimeWillTell

GIA Diamonds said:


> ................
> I'm fairly crazy
> ................
> Some of the questions are a bit....I don't even know, of course I'm going to want to affiliate with important people I'm a senior in high school, there isn't time for wrong decisions; also I'll give the credit to those who've helped me.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


I agree, questions are just shit and depending on how much you value specific words like always/never/best... it can screw the results 

You're still machiavellic


----------



## drmiller100

Narcissist are indeed nasty. Present and former addicts exhibit strong narcissistic tendencies. Beware them. 

BPD is a red herring. That is a different issue. BPD is not from lack of emotion, it is an overabundance of emotion, and no way to moderate it like "normal" people. BPD often marry sociopaths. They are opposites, and attract, and actually can "balance" each other out until it all implodes badly. 

I'm teaching ethics next quarter, and the book starts off looking at Kegan's stages of moral development, which I thought was an interesting path. 

In the middle is a stage where you follow the masses, you fit in, you agree with whatever the the "group" does. Laws are there for a reason, and there is rarely a reason to question them or disobey them. This is generally middle/young adult hood for most people. 
I never had that desire to agree with the group. I make up my own mind, my own morals. They change, and evolve, and grow over time, but they are never tied at all to what the group thinks. 
Some of that is being an ENTP and our natural flow, but I'm on the far edge fo ENTP's even in this regard.


----------



## Treat me like Im human

Drunk Parrot said:


> _*This is part III. Feel free to discuss this particular topic, independent of Parts I & II. Those links are at the bottom. The purpose of this thread is to debate if psychopathy serves a purpose and the pros and cons of empathy._
> 
> Harken back to art class and the color wheel, with this metaphor. My emotions are perhaps in 8 different colors. I've noticed that normal people have many different colors. A common theme I've read from self-described psychopaths is that they believed the emotional exchange was faked and a game. A person couldn't possibly care that much, but it was what people do in society and I was expected to do it too. That is why I am Drunk Parrot. A parrot copies the words of its owner, but doesn't necessarily understand what they mean. Parrots are not dumb, but the depth of saying "I love you" is lost on a parrot. Drunk refers to the normative state of enthusiasm that I exist in. It also describes the depressant qualities that alcohol plays on the brain. For the most part, I am numb. I do not feel much. When I drive an hour to work, I drive in silence. I am mostly in my mind and I do not have many different moods. Rather, I wake up pretty consistently content unless I feel excitement about the day.
> 
> Do psychopaths intentionally disregard empathy and morals?
> 
> 
> 
> I have, at times, delighted in hurting someone else. Maybe it's the ENTP side, but the pain I inflicted was more through words or non-violent actions. Mostly, however, I am completely unaware if I am causing others pain. If someone does something offensive, I get over it quickly. How can empathize with people, Fi & Fe users in particular, who hold onto a grudge or stay in their feelings? I've noticed that most people have trouble with empathy, anyways. Te wants to get things done and does not empathize with Fe who thinks they're being rude, or Fi who thinks Te is mean. I've read that empathy is a skill, of some sorts. A highly empathetic person tries to experience a wide range of emotions and can thus empathize with a variety of people. This is my understanding, anyway. Most of my friends are Te & Ti users, so I'm not expected to be too empathetic, as being rational and objective is more valued.
> 
> Still, Empathy appears to go much deeper than that. Most people it seems, feel guilt, although in different levels. One of the universal displays of empathy is the guilt from killing someone. I remember reading that in the history of war, most fighters were simply trying to survive and protect their fellow soldier. It was something like only 20% of rifles were ever fired, and even melee combat had fewer casualties than I would have expected. I guess that across all cultures, and all people, empathy is the one thing that unites people as humans. I think it is a beautiful thing, and I respect those who are truly empathetic. I might even consciously try to not hurt a kind-hearted person, although I have done so, probably more than I even realize. I do not feel guilt beyond slight disappointment in myself. In Part I, I describe life as a game, and I'm trying to win points for being "good", as it's Fable III. I actually do play video games, that often, as I don't find them as immersive as normal people do. After all, I live in a game, so I don't need to escape or distract myself with them, although I enjoy them from time to time.
> 
> With a "path", there's a reason they might ruin your life. It could be because you impeded them, challenged them, or even for their amusement. Obviously, the more narcissistic a "path" is, the high chance that they are irrational or deranged. The average sociopath or psychopath, however, is trying to survive and get what they can or want from the world. If you ignore one, they ignore you. *Quick Tip: Do not ever challenge a Sociopath or Psychopath unless you're willing to do what it takes to win.* If you're lucky, they might be high-functioning, like me, and be more likely to let it go. Even then, there are certain things that demand a response, from me, and I will not be provoked. With a low-functioning one, if you poke a wild animal, it will attack. I can sympathize and say "yeah, it sucks" when they unleash consequences, but it would not have happened if it was left alone.
> 
> One of the traits of psychopathy is "callousness" towards others emotions. If you were color blind, would you not be annoyed if people made fun of you for it? (_Note: People who are color blind are not psychopaths, it is just an analogy_). Now imagine if being colored blind had serious ramifications like being socially ostracized. The natural response for psychopaths is callousness, because explaining that you cannot feel other's emotions is akin to admitting you're not human. The other response is to hide it. That is the reason we must wear a mask, because we need others to accept us in order to survive. Of course, if everything is going smoothly, I actually enjoy the company of friends and I like people. But when life or a situation is on edge, survival mode kicks in and I must do whatever it takes to manipulate the situation so that I am not revealed nor harmed. If I am, though, callousness is what's rational. When being jeered or condemned, it is a harsh feeling. I've never had a prison sentence, nor run afoul with the law. But I have been fired, before, or accused of being a heartless jerk. When cover is blown, the natural response is apathy. A psychopath is quick to accept consequences, internally. That is because the rational mind sees the writing on the wall and has already accepted the fate. It is why you see emotionless faces, from a psychopath criminal, when sentenced to life or death. I can empathize with that subtle feeling. It's basically a feeling that the world demands penance and the best way to respond is defiance displayed as apathy; ie "You will not break me". But why not just feel guilty? I cannot, that's why. Honestly, I wouldn't mind if I could feel guilty, as I'm not _proud_ of the fact. But cannot and I don't know how to. The closest I can feel to remorse is regret.
> 
> I am critical of empaths, though. With their wonderful ability to connect and build others up also comes their power to "turn it off" and destroy someone. They do it in the name of morals, but I do not see how they are better for it. Many people expect others to follow the "rules". They cannot stand the idea that some people do not think the "rules" apply to them. Reality check, you're not going to be able to call me up to talk to the "path" and rationalize with him. You have to be aware, yourself, because laws might apply to everyone, "social norms" are not followed by everyone. Write a blog, cry to your friends, listen to Def Jam, whatever. It is your fault for being emotional; you suffer, they get revenge. Example: Someone cuts you off in traffic. You speed up and cut them off. Turns out they're a sociopath who responds by running you off the road. They get away, and you're in the hospital. You might demand justice! (Looking at you type 1s ;p) Empaths rally to each other and tell you that the guy is an asshole and going to hell. Yet, are you not accountable for cutting him off back? As I said, I appreciate Empathy and the depth that it provides people in life. I just find it to be highly inconsistent.
> 
> What I fear most about empathy, is it how quick it can shut off. Empathy seeks to emotionally sync with others, which unites people as human. Yet, I have watch countless news stories of someone that was deemed to be unworthy of empathy. Whether it was Ray Rice hitting his wife or the CEO of Mozilla who donated money to Prop 8. The mass of noble empaths decides someone is unworthy of their precious empathy. I'll admit that I am bitter, because of this. Why should I even try to be kind to the very people who are capable of destroying someone's life. In the past, the town could gather to execute someone. It's probably a psychopath, sociopath, or dutiful ISTP  who does the killing, but the crowd watches, flips off their empathy, because someone does not deserve it. I'm not clamoring against the death penalty, but rather I'm pointing out the inconsistency with which people display empathy. The only people I respect, as far as their empathy goes, is the one who empathizes with the unempathizable.
> 
> I am not religious, but I do believe God might exist. I even believe it is probable that life is more than just meaningless. By that, I mean a soul exists. I grew up Baptist, so that belief has been ingrained in me even if I reject most of it. Even so, I respect the man that is Jesus, in the Bible. It is oddly comforting that he could die for the world, including me. Yet, God can send people to hell without feeling remorse. Genesis says "Let us make man in our image". If this is true, then I believe both empathy and psychopathy are divine traits, on opposite ends of the spectrum. I am but human, but psychopathy is part of the human experience. I fear Hell, yet I accept it is the fate I deserve. I am callous, but I wish it was not my fate. Still, how could I love God if I cannot love my fellow man? The Hidden Suffering of the Psychopath | Psychiatric Times
> 
> I have read that a psychopath is incapable of empathy; That is not true. All people are capable of empathy, but they can only feel what they've felt, before. It is why Former alcoholics run AA and rape victims become counselors to other rape victims. Personally, I would like to someday become a therapists for psychopaths and others in Cluster B. In Part II, I mentioned the few deep feelings I've ever experienced. What I value most is to see into someone's soul. This quote is from Ender's Game and is my favorite quote:
> 
> Most emotions that normal people feel seem unnecessary, to me. The depth of feeling that comes from despair or self-actualization, however, is beautiful to me. When a person is broken and full of despair, then empaths can be there to build the person up. But there are moments when a person denies the darkness and clings to the lie of their false ego. The role of psychopathy, the purpose of what I am, is to break the person (Note: I'm not suggesting psychopaths should go out murdering and robbing people). If God exists, then that is why psychopaths exist. Maintaining a wonderful life is not the path to enlightenment. A muscle grows after tearing first. Your soul cannot grow unless it has first been broken. If you have been seriously hurt by a psychopath/sociopath/narcissist, then wrap yourself up in the pain. Contemplate it, brood on it, become it...then release it. Only through real suffering can real joy be experienced. Because, if it isn't real, then I don't care nor respect it.
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/general-...psychopathy-machiavellian-ism-narcissism.html
> http://personalitycafe.com/critical-thinking-philosophy/656250-part-ii-removing-mask.html


I have one thing to say in response to this entire rant and one thing only: You, Sir, have a beautiful mind.


----------



## Treat me like Im human

Drunk Parrot said:


> That best part about this reply is how you went from seemingly deranged to focused and logical haha.


LOL I noticed that too. Caught me off guard.


----------



## sinaasappel

@drmiller100
merry Christmas


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


----------



## sinaasappel

@occamschainsaw 
Merry Christmas


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


----------



## drmiller100

an interesting exchange between someone and me.

a favor to ask: . Please don't contribute to the derail on that thread. 

http://personalitycafe.com/sex-rela...t-how-impacts-mbti-relationships-life-35.html


----------



## Parrot

drmiller100 said:


> an interesting exchange between someone and me.
> 
> a favor to ask: . Please don't contribute to the derail on that thread.
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/sex-rela...t-how-impacts-mbti-relationships-life-35.html


The interaction confirms you are the Platypus of Cluster B types.

On another note, had a convo with my uncle this Christmas weekend. He was under the impression that sociopaths are vipers born without a moral conscience while psychopaths just have some missing wires (like schizophrenics). He's a smart guy, just not well researched on the topic. Creating dialogue on the topic is impossible if nobody knows how to define terms.

Bonus: My uncle is a pastor. I asked him why God would create psycho/sociopaths. He said it's because of sin nature and that they would represent the justice of God on Judgment Day. So if I was born to be damned, why would I not wreck as much havoc as possible. If Hell is my only time share, then making others absolutely miserable to temporarily provide myself pleasure is the only logical way to live my life.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Psychopaths of the internet, 

You are supposedly pragmatic individuals devoid of shame, guilt and embarrassment. Thus, I ask, would you sell your bodies in an unfavourable way (meaning in the style of a sexual orientation you're not comfortable with) and if so for what arbitrary price?


----------



## Parrot

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Psychopaths of the internet,
> 
> You are supposedly pragmatic individuals devoid of shame, guilt and embarrassment. Thus, I ask, would you sell your bodies in an unfavourable way (meaning in the style of a sexual orientation you're not comfortable with) and if so for what arbitrary price?


I'd suck a dick for as low as $1000. Swallowing makes it $2500. No tiny peckers, though, I want a real thing! I'd like to think I'd make money as a deep throat queen if I was a chick. Having sex with an ugly fat chick would probably cost more. I'm not skinny (6'4" 245 lbs) but fat chicks are gross.


----------



## sinaasappel

Drunk Parrot said:


> The interaction confirms you are the Platypus of Cluster B types.
> 
> On another note, had a convo with my uncle this Christmas weekend. He was under the impression that sociopaths are vipers born without a moral conscience while psychopaths just have some missing wires (like schizophrenics). He's a smart guy, just not well researched on the topic. Creating dialogue on the topic is impossible if nobody knows how to define terms.
> 
> Bonus: My uncle is a pastor. I asked him why God would create psycho/sociopaths. He said it's because of sin nature and that they would represent the justice of God on Judgment Day. So if I was born to be damned, why would I not wreck as much havoc as possible. If Hell is my only time share, then making others absolutely miserable to temporarily provide myself pleasure is the only logical way to live my life.


you're uncle, I can't even respond to his way of judgement..... its so harsh. To say that some were born damned... harsh
also the reason why I don't like to talk to some Christians. ( i'm usually the damned one in the conversations though so maybe that is just a personal bias.)



Drunk Parrot said:


> I'd suck a dick for as low as $1000. Swallowing makes it $2500. No tiny peckers, though, I want a real thing! I'd like to think I'd make money as a deep throat queen if I was a chick. Having sex with an ugly fat chick would probably cost more. I'm not skinny (6'4" 245 lbs) but fat chicks are gross.


I'm going to hell for laughing at this post 

and you are tall yeesh!


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Drunk Parrot said:


> I'd suck a dick for as low as $1000. Swallowing makes it $2500. No tiny peckers, though, I want a real thing! I'd like to think I'd make money as a deep throat queen if I was a chick. Having sex with an ugly fat chick would probably cost more. I'm not skinny (6'4" 245 lbs) but fat chicks are gross.


So 10 minutes of your time is worth $1000, huh? Looks like I'm making a bad career move in going into finance; Data scientists out of Tennessee is where it's at!


----------



## Parrot

I'm demanding quite a high price, I admit, as an unproven cock sucker.

I would make up for lack of experience with dirty talk and psycho eye contact. I'd make them cum before I even got past the tip.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

How do you give a hand job if you haven't evolved opposable thumbs yet? Should write a guide - The Nashville Method :laughing:

You're right, of course, in that only peasants get paid for their time instead of the job done. Knowing how much to charge for your service is far more tricky than establishing how much your time is worth though.


----------



## Parrot

If I were a chick I'd totally be a stripper.

I should look into being a boyfriend for hire. Like seriously, when people need to go see their parents and they need someone to pretend they have a boyfriend.


----------



## Parrot

Basic supply and demand, OC. If there is a strong demand for psycho gay HJs, then I have every right to demand a high price. Currently, lap dances go between 20-30 at strip clubs for 3 minutes. Surely a psycho gay 10 minute HJ is worth 3-4 times more per minute. I'm thinking $750-$1000 is a fair price for a top notch HJ. My problem is I need to be able to provide high quality service to justify the price.


----------



## drmiller100

Drunk Parrot said:


> The interaction confirms you are the Platypus of Cluster B types.


???????????????


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

I did laugh at Parrot's phrasing there when I came across it. Put me in a good mood.

On an unrelated side note, there's nothing more insufferable than a stupid narcissist. Clever narcissists bring out my masochistic side that just wants things to be entertaining. Poke and wait for the backlash.


----------



## sinaasappel

Occams Chainsaw said:


> I did laugh at Parrot's phrasing there when I came across it. Put me in a good mood.
> 
> On an unrelated side note, there's nothing more insufferable than a stupid narcissist. Clever narcissists bring out my masochistic side that just wants things to be entertaining. Poke and wait for the backlash.


you're crazy


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

GIA Diamonds said:


> you're crazy
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


Just call me Cindy






Could totally see me dressed in drag in my house dancing/singing along to this while my son is locked up in his bare room upstairs with inappropriate toys for his age and gender.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Drunk Parrot said:


> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=203746" target="_blank">Occams Chainsaw</a></i></span>
> <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention --> what do you, as a Brit, think of Donald Trump? As I've observed the election cycle I think there's a strong case he's a psychopath. He's glib, a pathological liar, and callous towards accusations. He's also cunning and ruthless in business. He's full enough of himself yet also doesn't give a shit at the same time. I get the impression that he'd like to be president but his main joy is just fucking around in the media. For now, he just loves the spotlight and unlike a true NPD, he's not concerned with negative publicity. He just brushes it off as whatever. I think he's ESTP 8w7 with that 8 being more a lust for control rather than the typical desire to protect.


ESFP NPD, from what I knew about him before this campaign.





 < certainly called a pathological liar here but I haven't seen enough to really say.

That he doesn't want to show weakness on TV (admit the public opinion does affect him) is not not indicative of NPD. 

A lot of his strategy is down to his campaign team. Difficult to say what in politics is his thinking and his team's reasoning. I haven't followed it much, tbh.


----------



## Parrot

MuChApArAdOx said:


> Respectfully disagree, I believe he does use Te, however because of his pathology + being the ultimate extrovert he is, he is too good for facts, everything is beneathe DT, because he truely believes he knows all. Sociopaths and Psychopaths would look very different than the average person using the same functions. This is why they are so easy to spot, but not so easy to always type.


Sociopaths and psychopaths use functions just as normally as anyone. They are cognitive functions which are thoughts. Detecting emotion is what's difficult. I should be pretty easy to spot since I don't care to wear a heavy mask. Most people don't spot it because they don't know anything about it. If someone "figures me out" though, I don't really care. Trump has that same ambivalence. He knows he's narcissistic yet doesn't let things bother him. 
@Occams Chainsaw the NPD people I know care quite a bit about their image. Trump is image conscious yet doesn't give a shit at the same time. You never did address my question about psychopathy = frontal lobe ADD + Amgydala narcissism. I am very hurt by that :crying:


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

So I spent a couple of days laughing at Martin Shkreli then realised that he plays all the same games as me (chess, civ 5, agar.io, LoL, etc.) has the same professional interests (finance/medicine), makes the same stupid faces as me, etc. 

TIL I am Martin Shkreli. Makes me wanna go kill the guy. I hate it.


----------



## mangodelic psycho

Just as long as your hair looks better than that....thing.


----------



## Parrot

He's got a pig nose, too. Civ V bores me every time I get to the middle ages. Most games bore me quickly, at this point.


----------



## Parrot

Also, most people get along with others who have similar interests. Even psychopaths have casual friends based on mutual interests. Occam is a one of a kind *psychoDIVA!!!*


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Ego didn't like that I found him pathetic then realised the comparability. That's all. His interests are in good taste.


----------



## Parrot

He's only pathetic because he got busted by the feds.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

I found his documentation of his life through YouTube live stream pathetic. Clearly seeking some sort of connection with people. And then the irony of being the guy who does the same on a forum hit me.

Being annoyed at him was just a case of projective identification. Don't like that I need connection.


----------



## Parrot

I just get illusions of grandeur thinking hundreds of psychologists are studying this thread and realizing they have the most brilliant discussion on psychopathy ever. Especially that parrot! Then I realize our conversation might have 6 people following along at most.


----------



## sinaasappel

Drunk Parrot said:


> I just get illusions of grandeur thinking hundreds of psychologists are studying this thread and realizing they have the most brilliant discussion on psychopathy ever. Especially that parrot! Then I realize our conversation might have 6 people following along at most.


*Delusions of grandeur :laughing:


>.<


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

I don't want to be examined anymore


----------



## mangodelic psycho

Occams Chainsaw said:


> I found his documentation of his life through YouTube live stream pathetic. Clearly seeking some sort of connection with people. And then the irony of being the guy who does the same on a forum hit me.
> 
> Being annoyed at him was just a case of projective identification. Don't like that I need connection.


Ooor you're an extrovert that needs the projection because it makes you more real (like me and drunkbirk. I don't see the analogy and I think the word projection is overused.


----------



## sinaasappel

psychedelicmango said:


> Ooor you're an extrovert that needs the projection because it makes you more real (like me and drunkbirk. I don't see the analogy and I think the word projection is overused.


Sassy *snaps fingers*


>.<


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

psychedelicmango said:


> Ooor you're an extrovert that needs the projection because it makes you more real (like me and drunkbirk. I don't see the analogy and I think the word projection is overused.


This was a lot of words..

Projective identification is not projection in the sense that is usually (mis)used.


----------



## mangodelic psycho

psychobird:










occamz:










me and gia:


----------



## mangodelic psycho

Occams Chainsaw said:


> This was a lot of words..
> 
> Projective identification is not projection in the sense that is usually (mis)used.


I'll extensively google it later then, but it still means you have a wrapped self image doesn't it?
I had a very interesting coversation today, lots of topics covered, one of them entjs. I know how your minds work now MUAHAHAHA. I think.


----------



## mangodelic psycho

Drunk Parrot said:


> I just get illusions of grandeur thinking hundreds of psychologists are studying this thread and realizing they have the most brilliant discussion on psychopathy ever. Especially that parrot! Then I realize our conversation might have 6 people following along at most.


Do you think it's entirely impossible that there are some "psychopaths" watching or will watch at some point this thread and think you were interesting? I don't think it's impossible. Why are you so self deprecating?


----------



## mangodelic psycho

I should be at work really uffer:


----------



## sinaasappel

psychedelicmango said:


> psychobird:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> occamz:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> me and gia:


that is exactly the face I gave when I saw that XD


----------



## piano

geez. we are literal opposites.


----------



## MuChApArAdOx

Wanna bees 

Rolls eyes


----------



## Parrot

spidershane said:


> The more honest you are the more comfortable the individual around you. I also should have said "why should what?"


Correct which is why I say: "Honesty is best if it produces the best result."

I'm honest with you, my friend, because I like you. If I'm at a job interview, I might not prefer to be honest.


----------



## Parrot

MuChApArAdOx said:


> Wanna bees
> 
> Rolls eyes


Drunk Bee is my friend


----------



## shazam

Drunk Parrot said:


> Correct which is why I say: "Honesty is best if it produces the best result."
> 
> I'm honest with you, my friend, because I like you. If I'm at a job interview, I might not prefer to be honest.


It depends on the interview. Some interviewers are specially trained to spot liars.


----------



## Parrot

spidershane said:


> It depends on the interview. Some interviewers are specially trained to spot liars.


I know, that's why I practice to spot them. Pretty good at hide and seek, now, doncha know. I've decided with my next round of interviews I'll say the company let me go. I think they'll respect me for my "honesty".


----------



## shazam

Drunk Parrot said:


> I've decided with my next round of interviews I'll say the company let me go. I think they'll respect me for my "honesty".


I don't understand what you're saying.


----------



## Parrot

spidershane said:


> I don't understand what you're saying.


I will say, in interviews, that my previous company got rid of me. I'll phrase it like it was because of differences of opinion, which is mostly truth. Telling 2/3 of the truth sounds like the truth.


----------



## shazam

Drunk Parrot said:


> I will say, in interviews, that my previous company got rid of me. I'll phrase it like it was because of differences of opinion, which is mostly truth. Telling 2/3 of the truth sounds like the truth.


Depending on how high a profile the job, they'll find out anyway.


----------



## Parrot

spidershane said:


> Depending on how high a profile the job, they'll find out anyway.


Yeah, obviously got to keep it cool. Around here, though, they do "neutral" referrals. When they call my previous company, they'll simply confirm the dates I work there. Other former colleagues will give me a good referral. After all, it isn't like people hated me at work nor that I was bad at my job. I did a damn good job.


----------



## Old Intern

Drunk Parrot said:


> Sadly this thread hasn't attracted the influx of psychopaths that I hoped for. Occam was probably arrested and executed for British high treason. @_drmiller100_ is just old and senile. I guess we're not as popular as we had hoped. Might need to recruit and allow dorks like @_psychedelicmango_ to join our ranks.


Here I am. Can we get the party started now?


----------



## Parrot

Old Intern said:


> Here I am. Can we get the party started now?


We sure can, old friend. :cheers2:

Careful, though. Some people on this thread assume we're faking it. It's like they can't contain their disappointment that most psychopaths aren't like what they see on the movies.


----------



## Old Intern

:ninja:


----------



## Parrot

Any great stories about apathy you can share with us. Or perhaps you can tell us how you're secretly M.E. Thomas?


----------



## Old Intern

I had to google that one. 

I'm not sure I'm a path but I recently recognized I may have no appreciation for poetry - at all.

Being a path might explain why even though I was a smart kid who liked to read, I was surprised to find Shakespeare (in High School) was so difficult I thought it might make me flunk a class.

It might explain why the XSO kept telling me over, and over, and over, and over, and over, that I was not caring enough. Then again, maybe he was secretly gay and trying not to be. I don't read people well enough to have that figured out.

But I seem to read people quite well in other situations, so the low feeling others emotions, and high cognitive empathy might fit me.

I have affection for free markets. By definition that alone makes me a path to all the socialists on perC?


----------



## Old Intern

I dunno if this would be ENTP or more to it than that . . . . .

A while back I binge watched a 90's legal show. It had a lot of episodes and I broke it up over a few evenings. I found myself really looking forward to it and when it was over I had an experience of loss. I really missed that show, and it made me think. . . I've never had this experience before, of looking forward to time in a "relationship". Or a sense of missing anybody really. When I sort of did the ENTP fade out, to move on to other things, I might have felt guilty, or more like concerned that I was supposed to feel something. But all I felt was relief that I wasn't pushing myself to act nice to that person anymore.

That sound path? or something else?

Thing about perC, sometimes it seems people are going through a real crisis point and I don't think I fake interest here. But most people in real life are so full of fear and whining about little things?


----------



## Parrot

Old Intern said:


> I dunno if this would be ENTP or more to it than that . . . . .
> 
> A while back I binge watched a 90's legal show. It had a lot of episodes and I broke it up over a few evenings. I found myself really looking forward to it and when it was over I had an experience of loss. I really missed that show, and it made me think. . . I've never had this experience before, of looking forward to time in a "relationship". Or a sense of missing anybody really. When I sort of did the ENTP fade out, to move on to other things, I might have felt guilty, or more like concerned that I was supposed to feel something. But all I felt was relief that I wasn't pushing myself to act nice to that person anymore.
> 
> That sound path? or something else?
> 
> Thing about perC, sometimes it seems people are going through a real crisis point and I don't think I fake interest here. But most people in real life are so full of fear and whining about little things?


It's narc vs emotional attachment. I can look forward to things I personally enjoy but normal emotional attachment with people doesn't happen. I don't find myself missing people or getting attached to "things". I'd miss that show, like you did, because it was stimulating, but then I'd quickly move on.


----------



## drmiller100

some of this is we are NT. Further, we are ENTP. To me, we recognize we are supposed to care, but are unsure exactly how to go about it. Further, posters to this thread are pretty bright compared to the general population.

I've had a few TV shows I really looked forward to. one is Dexter. Another is Hell on Wheels. Another is the modern version of Sherlock.

Commonality? I think so.


----------



## Parrot

drmiller100 said:


> some of this is we are NT. Further, we are ENTP. To me, we recognize we are supposed to care, but are unsure exactly how to go about it. Further, posters to this thread are pretty bright compared to the general population.
> 
> I've had a few TV shows I really looked forward to. one is Dexter. Another is Hell on Wheels. Another is the modern version of Sherlock.
> 
> Commonality? I think so.


That's why, I'm the only one on this thread, currently, whom I'd definitively consider a psychopath. I've read Old Intern's posts before, and it's kind of vague with her, as well as you. Since you two are older, at this point you all might have learned to cope to where it's hard to distinguish. I'm young and quite dysfunctional. Not saying your life is perfect, but seems less like a disorder when you describe it.


----------



## drmiller100

Drunk Parrot said:


> That's why, I'm the only one on this thread, currently, whom I'd definitively consider a psychopath. I've read Old Intern's posts before, and it's kind of vague with her, as well as you. Since you two are older, at this point you all might have learned to cope to where it's hard to distinguish. I'm young and quite dysfunctional. Not saying your life is perfect, but seems less like a disorder when you describe it.



"disorder." lack of order or regular arrangement; confusion:_Your room is in utter disorder._


2.an irregularity:_a disorder in legal proceedings._


3.breach of order; disorderly conduct; public disturbance.

4.a disturbance in physical or mental health or functions; malady ordysfunction:_a mild stomach disorder._





Ummm,. No. Perhaps with age I found acceptance of me. And part of that acceptance is a sense of narcissism - I'm different than most everyone else, and that is fucking awesome for me!


----------



## MuChApArAdOx

My problem with threads such as this one is this. PerCafe is so filled with generalizations and stereotypes that it is very difficult to take what anyone say serioiusly. Yes, I take post I read as fiction, it's like reading a novel by people who are passing their day away. I dont' believe anything anyone says, reads like made up stories from peope who enjoy writing.

Because of this I don't have the movation to help anyone when they are looking for advice, I don't beleive their story to begin with.

Anyone can claim to be anything they choose online. Nothing I have read in this thread leads me to beleive there is anything real about it. You can google and find everything you need to know about Psychopathy ....one thing you won't find is a psychopath who has remorse, or empathy. So the title itself is bogas as a real psychopath or sociopath don't have empathy or anything related. No such thing as a special snowfake in terms of psychopaths, unless you are the only one in the world, hum, no. Are you in the book of world records ?


----------



## drmiller100

MuChApArAdOx said:


> My problem with threads such as this one is this. PerCafe is so filled with generalizations and stereotypes that it is very difficult to take what anyone say serioiusly. ?



Irony.


----------



## Old Intern

MuChApArAdOx said:


> My problem with threads such as this one is this. PerCafe is so filled with generalizations and stereotypes that it is very difficult to take what anyone say serioiusly. Yes, I take post I read as fiction, it's like reading a novel by people who are passing their day away. I dont' believe anything anyone says, reads like made up stories from peope who enjoy writing.
> 
> Because of this I don't have the movation to help anyone when they are looking for advice, I don't beleive their story to begin with.
> 
> Anyone can claim to be anything they choose online. Nothing I have read in this thread leads me to beleive there is anything real about it. You can google and find everything you need to know about Psychopathy ....one thing you won't find is a psychopath who has remorse, or empathy. So the title itself is bogas as a real psychopath or sociopath don't have empathy or anything related. No such thing as a special snowfake in terms of psychopaths, unless you are the only one in the world, hum, no. Are you in the book of world records ?


Some people seem to think Steve Jobs was a psychopath. I took an interest in the latest or last movie made about him. It seemed to me that the writer (or director) of the script intended to slant things in ways I would have interpreted differently. My point is that humans and interpretations of humans - not black and white. The brain is one body part we know we don't know. So that makes it interesting.

One nice thing about being anonymous, is the freedom to be honest or to explore without any real world consequences.

In case you missed it, we discussed a difference between cognitive empathy and emotional empathy. Another brain twister is "if we are not in touch with our feelings - does that mean we don't have them? I think that is not as simple as it sounds. The other level is sympathy vs empathy. And what about the damage people do to each other because of emotional reactionary-ism and emotional investment. Maybe it is kinder, to "see" somebody, than be all wrapped up in ones own experiences about the others experiences.

Just because these topics are talked about elsewhere, it should be a problem if we talk about them here? It's no problem to me, for you to take what you read any way you like.


----------



## Parrot

MuChApArAdOx said:


> My problem with threads such as this one is this. PerCafe is so filled with generalizations and stereotypes that it is very difficult to take what anyone say serioiusly. Yes, I take post I read as fiction, it's like reading a novel by people who are passing their day away. I dont' believe anything anyone says, reads like made up stories from peope who enjoy writing.


I disagree. On PerC, I think there is some truth in what people say. Even if the details are wrong, the general theme is there. People who go online to talk about being a psychopath are probably at least sociopaths. The difference is 1%, of the population, is born as the former and 4% becomes the latter. 

As far as why I, specifically, might be a psychopath on this site, consider these aspects of personality. I'm Social instinct first, so focusing on psychopaths in society is natural. Also, my learning style is interpersonal. I learn best by receiving feedback from others. Finally, I can stay within the rules, of PerC, because I enjoy the topics here. Weak impulses, weak boundaries, and I have no impulse to do anything stupid.



> Because of this I don't have the movation to help anyone when they are looking for advice, I don't beleive their story to begin with.


This is in the debate forum. I didn't start this to ask for advice.



> Anyone can claim to be anything they choose online. Nothing I have read in this thread leads me to beleive there is anything real about it. You can google and find everything you need to know about Psychopathy


Sometimes I'm tired of being a psychopath. Having a persona where I'm incapable of emotional attachment might be fun, but in real life it's exhausting. PerC is my outlet where I can tell the truth, as I can't do it in real life.



> ....one thing you won't find is a psychopath who has remorse, or empathy. So the title itself is bogas as a real psychopath or sociopath don't have empathy or anything related. No such thing as a special snowfake in terms of psychopaths, unless you are the only one in the world, hum, no. Are you in the book of world records ?


Psychopaths are going to have narcissistic tendencies, at the very least, and full blown narcissism at most. Of course, I think I'm special in some ways. Also, the title is meant to contrast. Also, psychopaths can have affective empathy it's just rare. I'd say I only have it when there's no reason to be logical. So like I said pretty much never.


----------



## Parrot

Let's recap the main traits of a primary psychopath. These have nothing to do with the PCL-R, which, imo, is a Te system that doesn't accurately pinpoint who a psychopath is. It does accurately portray a _criminal_ psychopath, which is probably 10% of psychopaths.

1. A need for stimulation.
2. Shallow effect
3. Rare internal emotions
4. Shallow capacity for empathy
5. Narcissistic traits
i. Narc attachment
ii. Desire for narc supply (not need, however)
iii. Illusions of grandeur
6. Tendencies toward cynicism


When I read the neurological traits, the main things that stick out to me are ADD + NPD, with neither being fully realized. The frontal lobe deals with emotional consistency and allows satisfaction. ADD, from a diminished frontal lobe, makes it to where there's a constant need for stimulation. The right Amygdala deals with emotional learning, among other things. NPD is a result of a diminished right Amygdala. Emotional learning doesn't take place beyond mostly selfish emotions.

For psychopaths, narcissistic emotions inconsistency connect with the frontal lobe meaning they are narcissists that forget to be. It's the reason psychopaths often have a blank stare as nothing is being felt. On occasion, emotions are felt, but they are fleeting and cannot be easily duplicated, as emotional learning does not take place at a normal rate.


----------



## MuChApArAdOx

Drunk Parrot said:


> I disagree. On PerC, I think there is some truth in what people say. Even if the details are wrong, the general theme is there. People who go online to talk about being a psychopath are probably at least sociopaths. The difference is 1%, of the population, is born as the former and 4% becomes the latter.
> 
> As far as why I, specifically, might be a psychopath on this site, consider these aspects of personality. I'm Social instinct first, so focusing on psychopaths in society is natural. Also, my learning style is interpersonal. I learn best by receiving feedback from others. Finally, I can stay within the rules, of PerC, because I enjoy the topics here. Weak impulses, weak boundaries, and I have no impulse to do anything stupid.
> 
> 
> 
> This is in the debate forum. I didn't start this to ask for advice.
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes I'm tired of being a psychopath. Having a persona where I'm incapable of emotional attachment might be fun, but in real life it's exhausting. PerC is my outlet where I can tell the truth, as I can't do it in real life.
> 
> 
> 
> Psychopaths are going to have narcissistic tendencies, at the very least, and full blown narcissism at most. Of course, I think I'm special in some ways. Also, the title is meant to contrast. Also, psychopaths can have affective empathy it's just rare. I'd say I only have it when there's no reason to be logical. So like I said pretty much never.


*I disagree. On PerC, I think there is some truth in what people say. Even if the details are wrong, the general theme is there. 
*

If this was true people wouldn't get Infractions. People get Infractions ( especially people like me ) because I express my truth, it is a no no, truth is only acceptable when NFJ's are not offended. Offend an NFJ no matter what the topic, no matter how much truth you tell, you will get an Infraction due to personal offense.

*People who go online to talk about being a psychopath are probably at least sociopaths.*

I could buy into sociopaths lerking around the web, they are a dime a dozen it seems. Psychopaths are not as common.

A*s far as why I, specifically, might be a psychopath on this site, consider these aspects of personality. I'm Social instinct first, so focusing on psychopaths in society is natural

*

I'm also a Social Instrinct first and pretty sure I don't fit as as psychopath.

*Finally, I can stay within the rules, of PerC, because I enjoy the topics here. Weak impulses, weak boundaries, and I have no impulse to do anything stupid.*

Obviously you have never offended an INFJ, I promise you if you ever do, you will be put in the corner and get a spanking, haha! so fuking lame.

*This is in the debate forum. I didn't start this to ask for advice.*

I didn't mean this thread in general, I was speaking about all the forums in general.

*Psychopaths are going to have narcissistic tendencies, at the very least, and full blown narcissism at most. Of course, I think I'm special in some ways. Also, the title is meant to contrast. Also, psychopaths can have affective empathy it's just rare.*

I have narcissistic tendencies, probably more than the average person, it doesn't make me pathalogical. I also think I'm speical in more than some way, actually many ways, still, I'm not pathalogical. I really don't think psychopaths can have any real affective empathy, less than sociopaths, and they have O none zilch, OO, nope, not even a single drop.

I've always been Interested in pathology and how the mind works. I think because I seem to draw them too me, IDk, I tend to find them where ever I go. Sociopaths are not unusal in my life, however I don't know any psychopaths that I am aware of. I keep sociopaths close because they are so distructive to themselves and those close with them. And as much as I know that they are plotting my death at worse, and doing whatever they can to destroy my life at best, I still keep them close to keep an eye of them. So fuking stupid because they will plot my demise whether I am close or not- no regrets, no remorse, just evil little pricks.


----------



## Parrot

MuChApArAdOx said:


> If this was true people wouldn't get Infractions. People get Infractions ( especially people like me ) because I express my truth, it is a no no, truth is only acceptable when NFJ's are not offended. Offend an NFJ no matter what the topic, no matter how much truth you tell, you will get an Infraction due to personal offense.


I'm glad you feel comfortable expressing your disdain on the thread.



> I could buy into sociopaths lerking around the web, they are a dime a dozen it seems. Psychopaths are not as common.


This is my first thread: http://personalitycafe.com/entp-for...-narcissism-sociopathy-narcissist-supply.html

If you notice my first reply, to the question regarding my age, I lied. I was 25 at the time but I did not want to be perceived as another dumb, young, sociopath. At the time, I thought I was a sociopath and I just assumed psychopaths were the killers. Sometime around May/June, I realized that I was born the way I am. I never had a reason to repress emotions. I've reviewed my life and noticed that I was always different. Had a great family, childhood, so I never assumed I was different.



> I'm also a Social Instrinct first and pretty sure I don't fit as as psychopath.


I'm also ENTP, yet the majority of ENTPs are not psychopaths. So/Sx explains why I would create this thread, as Sp dom/2nd would probably be more cautious.



> Obviously you have never offended an INFJ, I promise you if you ever do, you will be put in the corner and get a spanking, haha! so fuking lame.


I mostly stick to Joke or Spam threads. When I debate, I am logical and impersonal, so there's no reason I would deserve an infraction.



> I didn't mean this thread in general, I was speaking about all the forums in general.


Fair enough



> I have narcissistic tendencies, probably more than the average person, it doesn't make me pathalogical. I also think I'm speical in more than some way, actually many ways, still, I'm not pathalogical. I really don't think psychopaths can have any real affective empathy, less than sociopaths, and they have O none zilch, OO, nope, not even a single drop.


I never assumed you were a psychopath.

I generally don't have affective empathy in real life situations. They might happen in private, but don't materialize when I'm interacting with others. Psychopaths Can Feel Empathy Too, When They Try

On Saturday, I felt some empathy watching NFL Honors. As I listened to Eric Berry's story, there was nothing that I could logically criticize. I felt happy for him and I felt his pain. If I ran into him, somewhere, I would probably be more calculated and logical, instead of gushing over him. Yet, at that moment, I felt empathy for him.








> I've always been Interested in pathology and how the mind works. I think because I seem to draw them too me, IDk, I tend to find them where ever I go. Sociopaths are not unusal in my life, however I don't know any psychopaths that I am aware of. I keep sociopaths close because they are so distructive to themselves and those close with them. And as much as I know that they are plotting my death at worse, and doing whatever they can to destroy my life at best, I still keep them close to keep an eye of them. So fuking stupid because they will plot my demise whether I am close or not- no regrets, no remorse, just evil little pricks.


It's sad why sociopaths are the way they are. My cognitive empathy can deduce that they are broken down. Of course, I prefer to not be friends with too many of them. Psychopaths have much weaker impulses than sociopaths. A psychopath would only ruin your life for a reason, and shits & giggles is often to costly. A _sociopathic_ psychopath, is the scariest of all, though. They are the +30 on the PCL-R.

Edit: This was another speech where I felt empathy for someone. There are very few moments where I feel empathy for someone. Yet, I'm not cynical enough to think no one is worthy of empathy. I just don't give it, face to face.


----------



## MuChApArAdOx

Drunk Parrot said:


> I'm glad you feel comfortable expressing your disdain on the thread.
> 
> 
> 
> This is my first thread: http://personalitycafe.com/entp-for...-narcissism-sociopathy-narcissist-supply.html
> 
> If you notice my first reply, to the question regarding my age, I lied. I was 25 at the time but I did not want to be perceived as another dumb, young, sociopath. At the time, I thought I was a sociopath and I just assumed psychopaths were the killers. Sometime around May/June, I realized that I was born the way I am. I never had a reason to repress emotions. I've reviewed my life and noticed that I was always different. Had a great family, childhood, so I never assumed I was different.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm also ENTP, yet the majority of ENTPs are not psychopaths. So/Sx explains why I would create this thread, as Sp dom/2nd would probably be more cautious.
> 
> 
> 
> I mostly stick to Joke or Spam threads. When I debate, I am logical and impersonal, so there's no reason I would deserve an infraction.
> 
> 
> 
> Fair enough
> 
> 
> 
> I never assumed you were a psychopath.
> 
> I generally don't have affective empathy in real life situations. They might happen in private, but don't materialize when I'm interacting with others. Psychopaths Can Feel Empathy Too, When They Try
> 
> On Saturday, I felt some empathy watching NFL Honors. As I listened to Eric Berry's story, there was nothing that I could logically criticize. I felt happy for him and I felt his pain. If I ran into him, somewhere, I would probably be more calculated and logical, instead of gushing over him. Yet, at that moment, I felt empathy for him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's sad why sociopaths are the way they are. My cognitive empathy can deduce that they are broken down. Of course, I prefer to not be friends with too many of them. Psychopaths have much weaker impulses than sociopaths. A psychopath would only ruin your life for a reason, and shits & giggles is often to costly. A _sociopathic_ psychopath, is the scariest of all, though. They are the +30 on the PCL-R.
> 
> Edit: This was another speech where I felt empathy for someone. There are very few moments where I feel empathy for someone. Yet, I'm not cynical enough to think no one is worthy of empathy. I just don't give it, face to face.


Why would a psychopath bother with making connections with other people knowing all their emotions are shallow, hollow, or superficial. What is in it for you ? I would think people would grind on your gears, because they would be beneathe you. It makes more sense to me that psychopaths would be lone wolves who kept to themselves and not bother with anyone.


----------



## Parrot

MuChApArAdOx said:


> Why would a psychopath bother with making connections with other people knowing all their emotions are shallow, hollow, or superficial. What is in it for you ? I would think people would grind on your gears, because they would be beneathe you. It makes more sense to me that psychopaths would be lone wolves who kept to themselves and not bother with anyone.


I am mostly a lone wolf. It's a cruel paradox where I cannot connect deeply with others, yet long for some connection. Most connections are because they are useful. One of my favorite relationships is with this Indian gas station owner. He seems like an ENTP, like me. I don't know his name, when I go in, I shoot the shit for 15 seconds and go on my way. Some of my "best friends" I just sporadically enjoy their company. We have similar interests, get drunk together, and we share some good laughs.

Psychopaths do pursue narc supply, though, so people affirming me or complimenting me is always enjoyed. And as sad as it is that I don't connect with people, it is not sad :bored:

By that, I mean I can't be depressed about it because I don't feel depressed. Instead, I try to conserve energy so that when I'm around people I can enjoy myself, even if it's just glib. I do have emotional attachment, it's just shallow. Like with the gas station owner, meeting someone a couple of times and liking them is about the extent of friendship for me. As I allude to in the OP, however, sometimes I do try to get deep, which is probably NP of me. I love breaking down someone's barriers to see the "real them". Although this isn't for emotional connection, but rather for curiosity. Still, some interactions can be magical, in their own way, as I'm being fed narc supply from their honest answers, and I can peer into who they really are. It's the same joy a scientist gets from an experiment.

Finally, there are some relationships that I maintain, although they feel like chores. Keeping up with my mom can be annoying at times, but she is useful, in terms of being able to provide if I hit rock bottom. Beyond that, I've reasoned that she did well, raising me, and I know she really loves me. She doesn't understand everything, but she's try to listen as I feed her basic information about who I think I am. I also reason that if I wasn't a psychopath, I'd probably love her, so I'm ok with at least covering the basics. With talking to her, some friends, and on PerC, I've come to realize that I _do_ desire connection. I have cognitive empathy, so for me, being understood is the same as love. Empathizing with me is less wet emotions, and more subtle, like two bees buzzing at each other. I have connections with others, when they understand where I'm coming from and they don't judge me. Hence, the contrasts of psychopathy & empathy I presented in the title.


----------



## mangodelic psycho

I've always sorted out people in my life in my head according to usefulness. I have thought that it might not be "normal", a psychopathic or narcissistic trait, but I really think it's honesty. Most relationships are give and take, that's the nature of a relationship isn't it? You give and you take, they're useful to you in some way and you're useful to them. I have a list of all kinds of things that I need from people, and different people will satisfy different needs. Regardless of how much I actually care and have empathy towards those people, at the very least, those kinds of relationships that are an exchange of goods, unlike user-victim relationships where you only take or give.


----------



## Parrot

psychedelicmango said:


> I've always sorted out people in my life in my head according to usefulness. I have thought that it might not be "normal", a psychopathic or narcissistic trait, but I really think it's honesty. Most relationships are give and take, that's the nature of a relationship isn't it? You give and you take, they're useful to you in some way and you're useful to them. I have a list of all kinds of things that I need from people, and different people will satisfy different needs. Regardless of how much I actually care and have empathy towards those people, at the very least, those kinds of relationships that are an exchange of goods, unlike user-victim relationships where you only take or give.


I think that is very much a 7w8 trait.


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

Go to sleep parrot, it's late D:


----------



## piano

psychedelicmango said:


> I've always sorted out people in my life in my head according to usefulness. I have thought that it might not be "normal", a psychopathic or narcissistic trait, but I really think it's honesty. Most relationships are give and take, that's the nature of a relationship isn't it? You give and you take, they're useful to you in some way and you're useful to them. I have a list of all kinds of things that I need from people, and different people will satisfy different needs. Regardless of how much I actually care and have empathy towards those people, at the very least, those kinds of relationships that are an exchange of goods, unlike user-victim relationships where you only take or give.


i had an epiphany related to this a few years ago. i always thought of it as a negative or "harsh" reality but over time i started to see that it wasn't necessarily negative, nor was it positive. it was just natural. it's only after you're in a relationship where all you do is give, that you realize how utterly pointless these relationships are. before this epiphany i never realized how damaging these relationships, or even just interactions, were on my psyche and emotional/mental reserves. i used to get offended when i noticed people drifting away from me when i was going through a rough patch because i didn't understand how anyone could do that, and then it hit me that it was probably because all i ever brought to the table was negativity... then i started to find myself on the other side of these friendships, with people who did fuck all but drain me, and i was just like "what am i doing here?" and then the epiphany hit. i've had so many random people cling to me in the past and they would sort of force me into these weird one-sided friendships i wanted no part in because they did absolutely nothing for me but my guilty conscience made it impossible for me to leave. i don't mean they were abusive or anything. they just didn't provide me with anything that i needed or wanted. why should i ever put someone i barely know before me?


----------



## FluffyTheAnarchist

i cant play the piano said:


> i had an epiphany related to this a few years ago. i always thought of it as a negative or "harsh" reality but over time i started to see that it wasn't necessarily negative, nor was it positive. it was just natural. it's only after you're in a relationship where all you do is give, that you realize how utterly pointless these relationships are. before this epiphany i never realized how damaging these relationships, or even just interactions, were on my psyche and emotional/mental reserves. i used to get offended when i noticed people drifting away from me when i was going through a rough patch because i didn't understand how anyone could do that, and then it hit me that it was probably because all i ever brought to the table was negativity... then i started to find myself on the other side of these friendships, with people who did fuck all but drain me, and i was just like "what am i doing here?" and then the epiphany hit. i've had so many random people cling to me in the past and they would sort of force me into these weird one-sided friendships i wanted no part in because they did absolutely nothing for me but my guilty conscience made it impossible for me to leave. i don't mean they were abusive or anything. they just didn't provide me with anything that i needed or wanted. why should i ever put someone i barely know before me?


i don't so much mind giving without expecting to receive something back, because giving can also be a guilty pleasure, seeing a situation improve or a person smile or a conflict disappear can be very satisfying, what i do mind, however, is being taken for granted and _*expected*_ to give... it's the expectation that drives me nuts, or when somebody invades my physical, emotional territory and imposes/demands something on/of me, makes my blood boil every time... pretty much sums up most of my relationships with xSFJs... especially if the demand and/or expectation is either "for my own good" or "because we are friends/family [which assumes that i am bound by some invisible friend/family contract that i never signed]".... ugh. Typical E-2 issues? Or is it what the E-7, E-2 split may look like @_Drunk Parrot_? :wink:

@_i cant play the piano_, but yeah, at the end of the day, there has to be some sort of satisfaction for both parties, however uneven it may appear on the surface... even if one side derives pleasure and meaning from accumulating the "martyrdom" points


----------



## FluffyTheAnarchist

drmiller100 said:


> Irony.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *MuChApArAdOx*
> _My problem with threads such as this one is this. PerCafe is so filled with generalizations and stereotypes that it is very difficult to take what anyone say serioiusly. ?_
Click to expand...

:laughing:


----------



## FluffyTheAnarchist

MuChApArAdOx said:


> My problem with threads such as this one is this. PerCafe is so filled with generalizations and stereotypes that it is very difficult to take what anyone say serioiusly. Yes, I take post I read as fiction, it's like reading a novel by people who are passing their day away. I dont' believe anything anyone says, reads like made up stories from peope who enjoy writing.
> 
> Because of this I don't have the movation to help anyone when they are looking for advice, I don't beleive their story to begin with.
> 
> Anyone can claim to be anything they choose online. Nothing I have read in this thread leads me to beleive there is anything real about it. You can google and find everything you need to know about Psychopathy ....one thing you won't find is a psychopath who has remorse, or empathy. So the title itself is bogas as a real psychopath or sociopath don't have empathy or anything related. *No such thing as a special snowfake in terms of psychopaths, unless you are the only one in the world, hum, no. Are you in the book of world records?*


marvelous, coming from an E-4w5! :tongue:


----------



## Old Intern

psychedelicmango said:


> I've always sorted out people in my life in my head according to usefulness. I have thought that it might not be "normal", a psychopathic or narcissistic trait, but I really think it's honesty. Most relationships are give and take, that's the nature of a relationship isn't it? You give and you take, they're useful to you in some way and you're useful to them. I have a list of all kinds of things that I need from people, and different people will satisfy different needs. Regardless of how much I actually care and have empathy towards those people, at the very least, those kinds of relationships that are an exchange of goods, unlike user-victim relationships where you only take or give.


I've been told that I take and don't give, more than once. I don't know what that means. Most social situations feel like filler activity to me. I know the procedure where I ask them enough questions to keep people talking about themselves. I try to act polite by using reflective listening. If I said what I really thought they would get angry. If I say anything that my mind wandered into, just an interesting aside, that something reminded me of something I'd read - they tell me I'm being a snot or a know it all - really. So I just do the filler activity. I thought letting them tell the same story for the millionth time WAS giving.

The most baffling thing is when, people want to tell you that work is superficial but relationships are what have meaning, but somehow this is just not true for me. Creative work means being my full real self. I don't mean expressing my taste or art, even if that figures into what I do. Work is real because a customer is giving me the problem to solve, something for me to chew on, something that gets my gears going and I'm expected to say what I actually think.

I don't know how for relationships to not be filler activity where all I am trying to do is avoid awkward silence. Thing is, Its not like I'm such an exciting person so I want others to step up and be more interesting. I can't blame people that all they do is talk about themselves. Just a simple example since parents were mentioned, I already know the only things my mother likes to talk about is her latest shopping or a romance novel she is reading. This is just the honest truth, I'm not disparaging her for that, I recognize if i visit with her this is about her, no problem for me to do that.

I don't feel empty, if left to my own devices to learn things or do things, or fix something. But I have nothing to connect about? People want me to invent drama or gossip? I don't know what a good relationship is because other than people to stay away from, everyone else - it's just going to be the same procedure for me to do. I don't know what is wrong with me but something is messed up.?


----------



## piano

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> i don't so much mind giving without expecting to receive something back, because giving can also be a guilty pleasure, seeing a situation improve or a person smile or a conflict disappear can be very satisfying, what i do mind, however, is being taken for granted and _*expected*_ to give... it's the expectation that drives me nuts, or when somebody invades my physical, emotional territory and imposes/demands something on/of me, makes my blood boil every time... pretty much sums up most of my relationships with xSFJs... especially if the demand and/or expectation is either "for my own good" or "because we are friends/family [which assumes that i am bound by some invisible friend/family contract that i never signed]".... ugh. Typical E-2 issues? Or is it what the E-7, E-2 split may look like @_Drunk Parrot_? :wink:
> 
> @_i cant play the piano_, but yeah, at the end of the day, there has to be some sort of satisfaction for both parties, however uneven it may appear on the surface... even if one side derives pleasure and meaning from accumulating the "martyrdom" points


it's only when it gets to a point where that's all i ever do in a relationship, that i start to take issue with the other person, but i agree. i don't mind the act of giving itself, it is when you aren't appreciated (which, in its own way, is them giving back? feeding our egos) or when they expect it from you that i start to mind. i wonder if the reason i stick around is because, subconsciously, i feel like i'm collecting "martyrdom" points... or perhaps it's because i'm terrified of the opposite happening, of me losing points, of being viewed as a selfish cunt? i do like to help people (when in the right mood) and when i do help them i like to do it with no expectations in mind - meaning that i don't expect them to thank me, nor appreciate me, for it - but don't ever make it sound as if i'm obligated to help you, regardless of who you are... just kidding. i am weak. i will help most anyone who asks and it stems from my extremely low sense of self-worth and a total absence of self-preservation instincts. it's a serious personal problem that i need to work on.


----------



## Old Intern

i cant play the piano said:


> it's only when it gets to a point where that's all i ever do in a relationship, that i start to take issue with the other person, but i agree. i don't mind the act of giving itself, it is when you aren't appreciated (which, in its own way, is them giving back? feeding our egos) or when they expect it from you that i start to mind. i wonder if the reason i stick around is because, subconsciously, i feel like i'm collecting "martyrdom" points... or perhaps it's because i'm terrified of the opposite happening, of me losing points, of being viewed as a selfish cunt? i do like to help people (when in the right mood) and when i do help them i like to do it with no expectations in mind - meaning that i don't expect them to thank me, nor appreciate me, for it - but don't ever make it sound as if i'm obligated to help you, regardless of who you are... just kidding. i am weak. i will help most anyone who asks and it stems from my extremely low sense of self-worth and a total absence of self-preservation instincts. it's a serious personal problem that i need to work on.


I suppose you might be (in real life) somebody who might feel I took advantage of them? I try not to. I mean I try not to make anybody feel obligated, or to have them do anything out of being worried about me, or anything like that (I mean I recognize people who seem to be kind souls who worry about everyone and I do try to not use that about anyone). But I naturally spot what people's talents are. People offer to do something for free sometimes, and I let them. One problem might be, for me there seem to be occasionally things I can do for someone, but its easy for me so I do it. I don't do things for others based on trying to build a relationship i guess. I do something because the opportunity was just there, it made sense or something. 

So the problem (for me) is that I don't deliberately keep a scoreboard? And maybe for you, you don't say no when you want to say no?
------------

It just cured to me why I like business better than relationships; because the scoreboard is spelled out. I don't understand what a relationship scoreboard IS other than a list of a couple procedures I use to just stay out of trouble?

Im not even saying that like "oooh i'm so afraid of conflict". I'm not sure what the goal is?


----------



## sinaasappel

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> personally, i ain't no groupie, got an e-7 in me tritype is all. :wink:


Lol I agree, I'm a 3w4 it'll ruin my reputation :laughing:


Sent from Mini-Mangos iPod touch using Tapatalk


----------



## Parrot

Oh @PariahParty why don't you come out to play. I notice you lurking in this thread. Are you looking for old posts of mine to attack me? Are you angry? Whenever you tucker yourself out we can have a real conversation concerning the topic.


----------



## TimeWillTell




----------



## Jippa Jonken

My impression is that PariahParty is superior at keeping his cool and is the one owning this thing.

Drunk Parrot displays telltale signs of desperation. I will elaborate if beckoned.


----------



## Parrot

Jippa Jonken said:


> My impression is that PariahParty is superior at keeping his cool and is the one owning this thing.
> 
> Drunk Parrot displays telltale signs of desperation. I will elaborate if beckoned.


*sigh* beckon

You know, I'll add more before you begin.

My impression of you is you're very full of yourself, which is why I said you belong on this thread. It's the reason you decide to give an opinion, starting with "my impression". It protects you because it's not factual but the inference is that it's infallible. Jesus, man desperation? And keeping cool by not replying?

Why would me getting slightly riled up make me less of a psychopath? After all, affecting my ego is a prime stimuli to incite action from me. This thread is about that topic, not who's cooler than the other side of the pillow. Do I need your elaboration? Of course not. But like a petulant 5 year old who wants to tell us he found a baby bumble bee, go ahead.


----------



## Jippa Jonken

Drunk Parrot said:


> *sigh* beckon


The most obvious sign is your willful ignorance of the phrase "medically uncharacteristic", the reference of which was clear. In other circumstances, you would've had no trouble recognizing that it refers to the discrepancy between alleged psychopathy and helpful, sympathetic behavior.

Then there is the directionless, far-fetched, abundant joking, and the poor attempts at defamation via highlighting of things like poor etiquette, imagined hypocrisy and megalomania, as well as inert nit-picking. Your conduct and priorities have shifted drastically; the above mentioned points of defamation pertain to moralities you normally would take pride in standing firmly above. I suppose you may be granted a loophole from the shame by claiming that your reaction to PariahParty is a charade with parodic intent, but i don't believe that is truly the case. I believe you feel threatened by the challenge he offers. You want the summit of cool for yourself.


----------



## PariahParty

Drunk Parrot, is this indignant, insecure, overcompensating reaction of 6 posts in a row about me and obsessively scouring my other conversations supposed to convince me that I was wrong about you being bullied? Can you justifiably say that any of this behavior can't be fairly described as histrionic? How is anyone supposed to take your self-diagnosis seriously when you display such a stunning lack of self-awareness?

Passive aggressively insinuating that I should be banned for insulting someone's type in a thread asking you to insult peoples' types is as petty as it is foolish. When Old Intern directly confirmed my assumptions they became facts. The rest is just pathetic quibbling.


----------



## Parrot

Jippa Jonken said:


> The most obvious sign is your willful ignorance of the phrase "medically uncharacteristic", the reference of which was clear. In other circumstances, you would've had no trouble recognizing that it refers to the discrepancy between alleged psychopathy and helpful, sympathetic behavior.
> 
> Then there is the directionless, far-fetched, abundant joking, and the poor attempts at defamation via highlighting of things like poor etiquette, imagined hypocrisy and megalomania, as well as inert nit-picking. Your conduct and priorities have shifted drastically; the above mentioned points of defamation pertain to moralities you normally would take pride in standing firmly above. I suppose you may be granted a loophole from the shame by claiming that your reaction to PariahParty is a charade with parodic intent, but i don't believe that is truly the case. I believe you feel threatened by the challenge he offers. You want the summit of cool for yourself.


Yes I am challenged. I am in control of my thread. If you come in here wanting to be the alpha, you will deal with a challenge back. If you come in, like Old Intern, Occam, and drmiller100 wanting to discuss a topic on equal footing, then of course I'm more egalitarian. Defending turf is not desperation. Psychopaths aren't robots, I react to things and I have no problem going after a hot shot outcast who thinks he has a bigger Pness than me? 

:laughing: Fuck that. I win at what I do. I'm going out soon to get drinks and have a squaking good time. I'm not some loser who must desperately defend his thread because it's all he has. No I defend it because it's mine.

Medically uncharacteristic? What does the doc have cancer, which I'm sure our young antagonist is familiar with? Perhaps neurologically inconsistent. Then again, as discussed in this thread, psychopaths, like all other people, are not one trick ponies. Also, the doc's supposed sympathy was actually just giving advice to the wild outcast. Such advice like being a dick is a good way to not be taken seriously. Most psychopaths learn that and I'm sure he follows that in real life. Typing under an avatar, however, is a good way to act mysterious. The truth gets out though.


----------



## Parrot

PariahParty said:


> Drunk Parrot, is this indignant, insecure, overcompensating reaction of 6 posts in a row about me and obsessively scouring my other conversations supposed to convince me that I was wrong about you being bullied? Can you justifiably say that any of this behavior can't be fairly described as histrionic? How is anyone supposed to take your self-diagnosis seriously when you display such a stunning lack of self-awareness?


It means you're my new toy to play with.



> Passive aggressively insinuating that I should be banned for insulting someone's type in a thread asking you to insult peoples' types is as petty as it is foolish. When Old Intern directly confirmed my assumptions they became facts. The rest is just pathetic quibbling.


After I posted that I realized what thread it was. I hope you're having fun, though. PerC is such a great place to meet new people.


----------



## Jippa Jonken

Drunk Parrot said:


> keeping cool by not replying?


I didn't say that.


----------



## Parrot

Jippa Jonken said:


> I didn't say that.


How else would he keep cool when I went on the attack. We only had one direct interaction prior to that?


----------



## PariahParty

Jippa, he does try, though, doesn't he? :laughing:


----------



## Parrot

PariahParty said:


> Jippa, he does try, though, doesn't he? :laughing:


You keep replying. Are you trying?


----------



## PariahParty

Drunk Parrot, the fact that you believe there's such a thing as an _alpha_ on an internet message board is mind-boggling. This thirst for even the most inane dominance lends itself to my assumption that you were bullied as a child, as do remarks aimed at securing the social validation of complete strangers. I don't know why you'd even put up the pretense that my initial impression wasn't true when everything you say bolsters it despite yourself. How could anyone not notice that you had no cogent response to my rhetorical questions concerning the implications of your behavior?

Aptly put, you sound like you still smell like a high school toilet to this day.


----------



## Old Intern

Pariah, might have done what I do, leave the page open but not on top, - working on something else.
@Drunk Parrot getting impatient and wanting center-stage, ADHD jokes and songs to keep the page active - mildly amusing and in character.
@PariahParty don't feel like you have to analyse me to come back. I might just be normal for my age. I need to stop procrastinating on a couple things and be okay with being okay about not dating - for now. I've read a few other women on-line (not perC) my age are thinking the same way. 

But Do come back to harass the parrot. :jumpingout:

I get to go be boring now and stream a movie.


----------



## PariahParty

Drunk Parrot said:


> You keep replying. Are you trying?


Trying is a rather strong word.


----------



## Parrot

PariahParty said:


> Trying is a rather strong word.


"Rather" is also a word. I like words, how bout you my Canuck friend? Are PP & JJ trying to DP me? Keep going, your analysis is great.



Old Intern said:


> But Do come back to harass the parrot. :jumpingout:


I always need some excitement


----------



## Jippa Jonken

I don't wish to harm anyone. Clearly i'm not enough of a psychopath to continue this.


----------



## Parrot

PariahParty said:


> Drunk Parrot, the fact that you believe there's such a thing as an _alpha_ on an internet message board is mind-boggling. This thirst for even the most inane dominance lends itself to my assumption that you were bullied as a child, as do remarks aimed at securing the social validation of complete strangers. I don't know why you'd even put up the pretense that my initial impression wasn't true when everything you say bolsters it despite yourself. How could anyone not notice that you had no cogent response to my rhetorical questions concerning the implications of your behavior?
> 
> Aptly put, you sound like you still smell like a high school toilet to this day.


Blah blah. You're a one trick diagnostic pony. Got anything else?



Jippa Jonken said:


> I don't wish to harm anyone. Clearly i'm not enough of a psychopath to continue this.


It's only harm when someone takes it personally.


----------



## Jippa Jonken

Drunk Parrot said:


> It's only harm when someone takes it personally.


DP sounds like harm to me. I was referencing that comment.


----------



## Parrot

Jippa Jonken said:


> DP sounds like harm to me. I was referencing that comment.


:laughing: JJ = You PP = Pariah DP = Double Penetration, yet is also my initials. See, it was a clever pun and I deserve only thanks for such clever wording.


----------



## italix

Old Intern said:


> okay, I can go back on topic maybe, and not talk about boyz.
> 
> Ne-Ti gets in the way of empathy. Some people might use the characterization of being ENTP (even if they aren't one), calling themselves ENTP being a way to excuse being myopic, or socially clueless. But if whenever you encounter an unpleasant or undesirable, situation, your first inclination is Ne-Ti, it is hard to relate to a lot of things many people complain about. ?
> 
> A real life example from a million years ago: an acquaintance of mine says she is sad about her husband not liking what she made for dinner the other day. To be fair, English was not her first language so maybe a word other than sad would have been more appropriate. My guess at where she was going with this? Maybe she would like me to say "Oh, I know men are such ungrateful bastards" but . . . . . this is not even remotely true in my experience. My first inclination, my immediate gut reaction was - how is this possibly something to think about beyond about two seconds that day at their mealtime? Why is she telling me this? I used reflective listening technique and said "you were disappointed?" I didn't do this to be sweet. I remember an almost sense of panic or a stuck moment because anything I could think of to say (that would be honest) would sound hostile. I had no hostility toward her, I just knew I didn't relate, and it was on me to fill some silence.


Apologies I skipped reading most of this thread. 

So I react the same way as you in your example, the "why did I get told this" and initial confusion having to think about what to say to react appropriately. But I do have maybe 2 people which I am close to and these kind of interactions are normal and I confide in them the same. I'd tell these 2 people that so and so didn't like the supper I prepared, (the person would have to be close to me for it to bug me and I'd take it as me not being competent in a skill). They'd tell me their problems and I don't have the usual what do I do scare like with everyone else.

So I'm curious, you are saying that you never have the initial empathy to help you relate, not even to a select few? You call this person an acquaintance in your example, do you react the same way with people closer to you? There was some talk of different kinds of empathy but I didn't really know every was going on..... You're welcome to call me lazy and say the answer is somewhere behind me


----------



## Parrot

Mjezen said:


> Apologies I skipped reading most of this thread.
> 
> So I react the same way as you in your example, the "why did I get told this" and initial confusion having to think about what to say to react appropriately. But I do have maybe 2 people which I am close to and these kind of interactions are normal and I confide in them the same. I'd tell these 2 people that so and so didn't like the supper I prepared, (the person would have to be close to me for it to bug me and I'd take it as me not being competent in a skill). They'd tell me their problems and I don't have the usual what do I do scare like with everyone else.
> 
> So I'm curious, you are saying that you never have the initial empathy to help you relate, not even to a select few? You call this person an acquaintance in your example, do you react the same way with people closer to you? There was some talk of different kinds of empathy but I didn't really know every was going on..... You're welcome to call me lazy and say the answer is somewhere behind me


There is a lot of irrelevant clutter in this thread so we can't expect you to have read it all. OI might agree, but it's logical to put more effort into caring about someone closer, but it still takes effort. The emotional component isn't natural either. People are generally just acquaintances, with some I like more than others.
@Old Intern neither of us have kids. I've considered, narcissistically, that in some ways I'd make a decent father. Objectively, I think I'd mostly be awful unless I'm raising a young psychopath. In that case, I might be a decent father, of course many would call for me and my spawn to be eradicated haha. Would you have made a good mother?


----------



## Old Intern

Drunk Parrot said:


> There is a lot of irrelevant clutter in this thread so we can't expect you to have read it all. OI might agree, but it's logical to put more effort into caring about someone closer, but it still takes effort. The emotional component isn't natural either. People are generally just acquaintances, with some I like more than others.
> @_Old Intern_ neither of us have kids. I've considered, narcissistically, that in some ways I'd make a decent father. Objectively, I think I'd mostly be awful unless I'm raising a young psychopath. In that case, I might be a decent father, of course many would call for me and my spawn to be eradicated haha. Would you have made a good mother?


When i was young, the biggest thing I would think of when I felt under pressure like somebody expecting me to have a doctors excuse or deep dark secret as a reason to not be enthused about kids - the thing that seemed real or important to me was that as a young person, I didn't know enough about life yet to be thinking about what to pass on to another generation.

I remember saying to the xso, that if I learn a lot or try things until I get old, then I can always find some way to be part of something because I will have learned a lot; so why be worried about when I get old? I've even wondered if some people have kids to grow their own brood, because it is too hard for them to meet people and get along with others - so this way they train their own club members.

Most of my beginning to think, or feel like I may know a thing or two (about life) has only kicked in, in recent years.

I was 27 or so before It even occurred to me that anybody has kids on purpose. 

Also, I believed that if you got married and or have kids, it obligates you to be normal and do whatever is the safest thing(s). As a single person, however, I live in ways that make sense to me with risks or priorities I don't have to justify. I don't know if kids of mine would have been really messed up or fine, but I remember thinking as a teenager that I, was not like an aunt of mine. This aunt thought of her kids like they were her career, family was her whole world and I just didn't have that in me.


----------



## Parrot

Old Intern said:


> When i was young, the biggest thing I would think of when I felt under pressure like somebody expecting me to have a doctors excuse or deep dark secret as a reason to not be enthused about kids - the thing that seemed real or important to me was that as a young person, I didn't know enough about life yet to be thinking about what to pass on to another generation.
> 
> I remember saying to the xso, that if I learn a lot or try things until I get old, then I can always find some way to be part of something because I will have learned a lot; so why be worried about when I get old? I've even wondered if some people have kids to grow their own brood, because it is too hard for them to meet people and get along with others - so this way they train their own club members.
> 
> Most of my beginning to think, or feel like I may know a thing or two (about life) has only kicked in, in recent years.
> 
> *I was 27 or so before It even occurred to me that anybody has kids on purpose. *
> 
> Also, I believed that if you got married and or have kids, it obligates you to be normal and do whatever is the safest thing(s). As a single person, however, I live in ways that make sense to me with risks or priorities I don't have to justify. I don't know if kids of mine would have been really messed up or fine, but I remember thinking as a teenager that I, was not like an aunt of mine. This aunt thought of her kids like they were her career, family was her whole world and I just didn't have that in me.


I laugh at the bolded, yet I've had dumb thoughts. It never occurred to me, until recently, that emotions corresponded with actual physical feelings. Like being angry means you feel you heart beat and feel...whatever else you feel. I would say words like "feel" and never knew what they meant. Saying I feel is interchangeable with saying I think. They're meaningless words to me, but I feel sounds more sincere.


----------



## Old Intern

Mjezen said:


> Apologies I skipped reading most of this thread.
> 
> So I react the same way as you in your example, the "why did I get told this" and initial confusion having to think about what to say to react appropriately. But I do have maybe 2 people which I am close to and these kind of interactions are normal and I confide in them the same. I'd tell these 2 people that so and so didn't like the supper I prepared, (the person would have to be close to me for it to bug me and I'd take it as me not being competent in a skill). They'd tell me their problems and I don't have the usual what do I do scare like with everyone else.
> 
> So I'm curious, you are saying that you never have the initial empathy to help you relate, not even to a select few? You call this person an acquaintance in your example, do you react the same way with people closer to you? There was some talk of different kinds of empathy but I didn't really know every was going on..... You're welcome to call me lazy and say the answer is somewhere behind me


This experience stuck with me, maybe because this girl was a young married and I was a little older (many years ago), with a boyfriend, though I was not intending marriage or kids. I wasn't intending any antagonism or unfriendliness toward her, someone I worked with who had been friendly to me - but wherever she was coming from seemed foreign. I was kind of aware that some women seem to love playing martyrs or something like that. My putting myself n her place wasn't gong to work because this problem doesn't seem like a feeling problem to me, any more than fixing a drain leak from the bathroom sink.

So this is what I mean by Ne-Ti difference; a problem, several possible meanings (none of which I would be taking personally). I did a quick rundown in my mind, if I'd had this problem. Was it an ingredient he just didn't like, like olives? Did I fudge something and I knew too, that something hadn't turned out great? Was he being overly fussy, in which case he can start doing more cooking instead of me? Is he just in some kind of pissy mood which may have nothing to do with me?............ So this is why I'm thinking this seems like such an easy problem to solve; "I don't want to sound snotty or rude to her". . . . "what am I missing?".

No problem with whatever you did or didn't read in the thread, as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## sinaasappel

BlackFandango said:


> Porque no quiero. Lo siento.
> 
> Sent from my Z936L using Tapatalk


¡Participantes en la graveyard!



Drunk Parrot said:


> That being said, this is an English-Only psychopath thread. Take your espanyol shit, somewhere else.
> 
> Why don't you play mafia?
> Because I don't want to, sorry.
> 
> Such riveting conversation from some dried up hacks.


 ¿tú prefiéres francais?


----------



## Old Intern

Drunk Parrot said:


> I laugh at the bolded, yet I've had dumb thoughts. It never occurred to me, until recently, that emotions corresponded with actual physical feelings. Like being angry means you feel you heart beat and feel...whatever else you feel. I would say words like "feel" and never knew what they meant. Saying I feel is interchangeable with saying I think. They're meaningless words to me, but I feel sounds more sincere.


I can feel anger or irritation, tense, stuck on something like "how can this person believe this?" But I had an ESFJ roommate years ago that, I swear, she was like a walking feelings diary? I mean she would come home from work and it would be a replay hour by hour of this feelings diary! 

I'm not putting the roommate down but my unwinding at the end of the day is more like I give myself a report card, with gold stars or areas of "needs improvement". I don't have to unwind verbally to a person either, but this is what I mean about the xso not wanting me to talk about work - but I don't divide life into job in one corner and life in another corner. I stopped talking about anything that was actually on my mind. I don't even think this means i don't think about other people, but I don't dwell on things that are not in my hands?

Mostly, for me feelings are not complicated and I mostly have high gear or low gear. If I'm in low gear I need food or sleep or I need to do something to change scenery, take a break. I don't understand making these things as complex or drawn out the way many people do?


----------



## italix

Old Intern said:


> This experience stuck with me, maybe because this girl was a young married and I was a little older (many years ago), with a boyfriend, though I was not intending marriage or kids. I wasn't intending any antagonism or unfriendliness toward her, someone I worked with who had been friendly to me - but wherever she was coming from seemed foreign. I was kind of aware that some women seem to love playing martyrs or something like that. My putting myself n her place wasn't gong to work because this problem doesn't seem like a feeling problem to me, any more than fixing a drain leak from the bathroom sink.
> 
> So this is what I mean by Ne-Ti difference; a problem, several possible meanings (none of which I would be taking personally). I did a quick rundown in my mind, if I'd had this problem. Was it an ingredient he just didn't like, like olives? Did I fudge something and I knew too, that something hadn't turned out great? Was he being overly fussy, in which case he can start doing more cooking instead of me? Is he just in some kind of pissy mood which may have nothing to do with me?............ So this is why I'm thinking this seems like such an easy problem to solve; "I don't want to sound snotty or rude to her". . . . "what am I missing?".
> 
> No problem with whatever you did or didn't read in the thread, as far as I'm concerned.


It's interesting to me because what you describe I relate to, on some level anyway, but I do not have a lot of problems coming off the wrong way socially. I read some of Drunk Parrots posts and he described having to _guess_ at first what people wanted to hear because of lack of empathy (sorry if I got that wrong, like I said skimmed through all lot of this). I go through the mental steps as you have described, but I usually know what kind of response people want to hear. So I give them that because it's way easier than saying my own opinion and causing a fuss. I am taking away that it must be the Ne-Ti I am relating to but because I do not have the lack empathy that I can determine the right response easier. 

Please correct me if I am wrong, I don't feel like I have a good grasp of all this yet :laughing: meaning this topic and mbti/cognitive functions etc. I mostly post when I am confused ha I actually look at PerC daily but never feel like responding.


----------



## Old Intern

Mjezen said:


> It's interesting to me because what you describe I relate to, on some level anyway, but I do not have a lot of problems coming off the wrong way socially. I read some of Drunk Parrots posts and he described having to _guess_ at first what people wanted to hear because of lack of empathy (sorry if I got that wrong, like I said skimmed through all lot of this). I go through the mental steps as you have described, but I usually know what kind of response people want to hear. So I give them that because it's way easier than saying my own opinion and causing a fuss. I am taking away that it must be the Ne-Ti I am relating to but because I do not have the lack empathy that I can determine the right response easier.
> 
> Please correct me if I am wrong, I don't feel like I have a good grasp of all this yet :laughing: meaning this topic and mbti/cognitive functions etc. I mostly post when I am confused ha I actually look at PerC daily but never feel like responding.


You said something quite significant, and it might tie into things i've read (and relate) to that are characteristic of ENTP's (my being one). One sociopathic trait is lying, but one "credo" of ENTPs is not lying. I'm flexible rather than rigid on many moral issues but not lying is the one strong or stable component, or moral compass for me. Not that I don't understand that many or most people say things to not hurt feelings and things like that. I don't think I'm a social retard. But something makes me angry or disrespecting toward someone if I think I need to lie to them? What I normally do is exactly like I said - reflective listening, and this usually works fine. I don't give them my opinion, I do a procedure to encourage them to say whatever they are going to say.

Knowing what someone wants to hear, is cognitive empathy, which I have as much as anybody. Knowing what someone wants to hear, (and not feeling what they feel, or remembering ever feeling that way) can put you in a position of being an outsider, like you are gaming the other person? So this experience was a walk through of what that dilemma is like for me. I've always felt like if I flat out let myself lie to people, that would be crossing some point of no return.
----------
So summary, Ne-Ti, my inclination to do problem solving as a first instinct, routes me off course from emotional experiences. I just handle something. This eliminates a lot of what people seem to bond over? Result, I get along with all kinds of people but don't much value people I've known for many years over people I've known only a few months. I don't mean to sound like a bad person saying I don't value people, but I guess I mean I don't miss them or need to keep special people around me for my own benefit. I'm not saying this is a good way to be - this is why I'm here exploring this.


----------



## italix

Old Intern said:


> You said something quite significant, and it might tie into things i've read (and relate) to that are characteristic of ENTP's (my being one). One sociopathic trait is lying, but one "credo" of ENTPs is not lying. I'm flexible rather than rigid on many moral issues but not lying is the one strong or stable component, or moral compass for me. Not that I don't understand that many or most people say things to not hurt feelings and things like that. I don't think I'm a social retard. But something makes me angry or disrespecting toward someone if I think I need to lie to them? What I normally do is exactly like I said - reflective listening, and this usually works fine. I don't give them my opinion, I do a procedure to encourage them to say whatever they are going to say.
> 
> Knowing what someone wants to hear, is cognitive empathy, which I have as much as anybody. Knowing what someone wants to hear, (and not feeling what they feel, or remembering ever feeling that way) can put you in a position of being an outsider, like you are gaming the other person? So this experience was a walk through of what that dilemma is like for me. I've always felt like if I flat out let myself lie to people, that would be crossing some point of no return.
> ----------
> So summary, Ne-Ti, my inclination to do problem solving as a first instinct, routes me off course from emotional experiences. I just handle something. This eliminates a lot of what people seem to bond over? Result, I get along with all kinds of people but don't much value people I've known for many years over people I've known only a few months. I don't mean to sound like a bad person saying I don't value people, but I guess I mean I don't miss them or need to keep special people around me for my own benefit. I'm not saying this is a good way to be - this is why I'm here exploring this.


It's hard for me to convey exactly how I am concerning this. It has only been the last few years that I have been discovering myself and letting myself be who I was meant to be. What I mean by that is that I tried to fit in with social norms and my mother's expectations for me. She was rather controlling with how I should behave growing up.. 

Also it's hard for me to compare myself because our standards are different from one another. What we are comparing is not quantifiable but rather subjective.

Another example -- I'm still a student and I work on campus in an office setting. The gal who works in the same office as me vents always - looking at that, I find myself doing a lot of reflective listening as you call it. But I have also been trying to relate, however it's not working very well. She says something and I try to think of something where I'd felt the same way but it comes out and it's just not quite there. I get so flustered trying to find something. The whole office is mostly a bunch of older women with stupid problems.. _she won't comply with the rules because I was the one who initiated it and she doesn't like me_ GAH idk what to do with that. 

I've also come to realize that I don't see people they way most people do. If I put energy into forming a relationship with someone it's usually because I see some value in being friends with them. It hardly is some emotional bond with them, it's because I gain something from hanging out with them. They are funny, or they are knowledgeable, they like to go workout and I need someone to kick me in the butt to get me there. Stuff like that. Not saying that I never value anyone more than that, there are a handful of people that would fit into what "friends" are to everyone else. Sometimes I wish I was more introverted because if I go too long without people I start to feel depressed. People energize me but I feel like I could be using my time better than having to make friends.


----------



## Old Intern

@Mjezen you are young; so it sounds like what you are doing is mostly working for you in your life. PerC is a good place to learn about yourself and how different people focus on different priorities or process information differently. I recommend studying the (8) Jungian cognitive functions as a starting point (of perC).

I might be over-analyzing myself or getting too detailed at times. Middle-age evaluation.


----------



## italix

Thanks, ya I've been studying the cognitive functions. I still don't understand Fi and Ni but I have a decent grasp on the others. I guess I wasn't trying to say I was having problems with my life that needed fixing, just saying that I still don't feel like I truly know myself. I find myself just wanting to relate to people on here. I think I am still getting out of my "it's ok that I don't fit in with the norm and I can be who I need to be." I guess I'm using relating to people on here as a way to justify that. I've accepted my differences but still finding myself wanting to relate to people.


----------



## drmiller100

Mjezen said:


> So I'm curious, you are saying that you never have the initial empathy to help you relate, not even to a select few? You call this person an acquaintance in your example, do you react the same way with people closer to you? There was some talk of different kinds of empathy but I didn't really know every was going on..... You're welcome to call me lazy and say the answer is somewhere behind me



The other day a good friend (ENFJ) saw a dog get run over and die the other day. she showed up, and was crying. I went into "pretend to care" mode. She is a really nice lady, she is a great friend, and obviously it upset her, so it costs me nothing to give her a hug.

Last December a good friend died. I went to the funeral and helped the family. THey are nice people, they were nice to me, she was nice to me, and it costs me nothing to show up at the funeral and be there and it seems to help them. 
Am i sad? No, she had horrible healthy, advanced dementia, smoked a lot, refused to take any medication (I did try to help her.)


----------



## drmiller100

Old Intern said:


> YoI'm flexible rather than rigid on many moral issues but not lying is the one strong or stable component, or moral compass for me. Not that I don't understand that many or most people say things to not hurt feelings and things like that. I don't think I'm a social retard.
> 
> 
> 
> Knowing what someone wants to hear, is cognitive empathy, which I have as much as anybody.


The first paragraph I TOTALLY relate to. the second paragraph is an acquired pretend thing for me which I do sometimes.


----------



## Parrot

Haha I lie all the time. It seems I _have_ to lie. PerC is the one place I don't have to lie.


----------



## drmiller100

Drunk Parrot said:


> Haha I lie all the time. It seems I _have_ to lie. PerC is the one place I don't have to lie.


i clear assholes out of my life by being honest.

it is pretty easy and effective. All that ends up left are interesting people.


----------



## Parrot

drmiller100 said:


> i clear assholes out of my life by being honest.
> 
> it is pretty easy and effective. All that ends up left are interesting people.


I cozy up to assholes and mock self-proclaimed interesting people. Interesting is subjective. If I find assholes interesting and ethical people a bore, then I'm doing the same thing you do, by opposite means.


----------



## drmiller100

Drunk Parrot said:


> I cozy up to assholes and mock self-proclaimed interesting people. Interesting is subjective. If I find assholes interesting and ethical people a bore, then I'm doing the same thing you do, by opposite means.


I'm almost a half century old. I've had my fill of mocking pompous people. 

BTDT. Boring.

Btw. I teach ethics sometimes. It is kind of interesting. People who sort of know me snicker. Those who know me well want to know how much to attend the class. 

I'm a consequentialist.


----------



## Old Intern

drmiller100 said:


> The first paragraph I TOTALLY relate to. the second paragraph is an acquired pretend thing for me which I do sometimes.


I don't think its messed up or anything to not cry at every funeral. It's not like I think it's too much to listen to other people either. I think it might be messed up to feel like people are interchangeable and it's all the same amount of effort. This wasn't something I gave a lot of thought to before perC.


----------



## Parrot

drmiller100 said:


> I'm almost a half century old. I've had my fill of mocking pompous people.
> 
> BTDT. Boring.
> 
> Btw. I teach ethics sometimes. It is kind of interesting. People who sort of know me snicker. Those who know me well want to know how much to attend the class.
> 
> I'm a *consequentialist*.


That means you believe in cause and effect. In fact everything in life would be based on that. Supposedly psychopaths view life the same. It's the reason for stunted speech and careful wording..."sounding like a serial killer." Hard to converse when everything you say affects the desired outcome. 

I'm watching House of Cards, again, and the dramatic music is really building up what I'm typing.


----------



## Psychophant

That's not really what it means.


----------



## Parrot

Psychophantic said:


> That's not really what it means.


Do continue


----------



## Old Intern

I'd be interested in an ethics discussion and I wouldn't attack anything. I have all I can do with my simple rules for managing my own life. Consequentialism, as ethical theory . . . . . . .





-----------------
Here is a decent link about Ethics Theories @Drunk Parrot

http://www.iep.utm.edu/ethics/#SSH1b.i


----------



## drmiller100

three main schools of thought. 
virtues. live a virtuous life, and you will be a virtuous person, and by definition you do virituous things and are ethical. virtues examples include 10 commandments, golden rule, etc.
deontology. rules are good. follow the rules and you will be ethical. rules include laws, policies, social norms and rules, etc. cops doing their jobs are being ethical as they are following the rules.
consequentialist means you look at the consequences of your actions or inactions, and it is somewhat situation dependent. this has issues in it becomes a personal choice and you can't make rules for society to get along.


----------



## chanteuse

*Moderator Checks In

I've received derailing report. Please be mindful to stay on the topic. 

Thanks *


----------



## Old Intern

^  ........ But we have at least three ENTP's doing most of the posting. 

I did see a tie-in about ethics, psychopathy, and empathy, and how ENTP's are viewed as less moral sometimes. Or even what empathy is and how it gets used, being tied to ethics.

@drmiller100 , your preference of theory is where we get the trolley car dilemma?
Was it Kant, somebody, said the guiding principle should be for persons, people, to be the end not the means. So most of us don't like the idea of being thought of as a user - but this idea, of using people is done on levels "nice" people don't admit to, and is necessary in any group of people past an immediate family unit.

If we say (as a society) it's never moral to use people - this is just not being honest about real life. Part of ENTP's being categorized as nearer to amoral, is because we lean toward thinking about those trolley car moral questions, plus we just see people's potential or talents. When people only see people as people, for themselves, and not how they fit some end goal - what are they really saying?

I hope my connection of ethics relating to OP makes sense with this post.


----------



## Parrot

Old Intern said:


> ^  ........ But we have at least three ENTP's doing most of the posting.
> 
> I did see a tie-in about ethics, psychopathy, and empathy, and how ENTP's are viewed as less moral sometimes. Or even what empathy is and how it gets used, being tied to ethics.
> 
> @drmiller100 , your preference of theory is where we get the trolley car dilemma?
> Was it Kant, somebody, said the guiding principle should be for persons, people, to be the end not the means. So most of us don't like the idea of being thought of as a user - but this idea, of using people is done on levels "nice" people don't admit to, and is necessary in any group of people past an immediate family unit.
> 
> If we say (as a society) it's never moral to use people - this is just not being honest about real life. Part of ENTP's being categorized as nearer to amoral, is because we lean toward thinking about those trolley car moral questions, plus we just see people's potential or talents. When people only see people as people, for themselves, and not how they fit some end goal - what are they really saying?
> 
> I hope my connection of ethics relating to OP makes sense with this post.


I made the derailing report. You're fine, want to focus on topic that's all.

Anyway, going to a psychologist, in an hour. Trying to decide how much "truth" to reveal. I'm supposed to go, anyway, as my regular doctor needs a psychological evaluation in order to keep prescribing me this medicine.


----------



## Old Intern

It did occur to me that @Drunk Parrot might be missing the sense of being center of attention. Let us know how the doctor went, if you want.

I'm only hogging up space because the topic triggers things I'm thinking about for my own life, and . . . . it started to seem like maybe the Parrot was running out of material.

One connection I'm making is that "using" of people seems to get focused on as an evil - love of money. People use people for attention, and "social capital". What about moral or immoral using of people on social media? You can't say that money did this - because social capital existed before social media and before capitalism.

And where does empathy go in social media - is it more empathy? I'll bet some of the biggest psychopaths are having a hay-day in non-profit organizations today. - Just a thought. Being caring is a popular thing to be right now. Just because you know what people care about doesn't mean you have the emotional empathy that others seem to want to get behind, even while you DO nothing.


----------



## PariahParty

Drunk Parrot said:


> @PariahParty this is cool and all that you're helping @Old Intern with her relationship problems but that isn't the point of this thread. To what regard would you consider OI to be just lonely while other aspects make her a psychopath? Do you even know how to define what a psychopath is? Otherwise, you two should continue this discussion is a more appropriate forum: http://personalitycafe.com/sex-relationships/


Psychopathy, as a disorder defined by social behavior, is intrinsically tied to how individuals view and experience relationships. We were largely discussing feelings dissociation, which is a hallmark of the disorder. How blatantly must I relate whatever I say to psychopathy for you to stop ignorantly whining to moderators?


----------



## Old Intern

@PariahParty other things were also going on in the thread. You and I handled discussion okay so don't worry about it.


----------



## drmiller100

Old Intern said:


> @drmiller100 , your preference of theory is where we get the trolley car dilemma?
> .


The dilemma exists. 

HOW YOU ANSWER the dilemma will be based on your ethical choices. 

I don't know what I'd do. I do know if someone else pushed the fat man under the trolley to derail it, I'd understand.

I know I'd have a LOT more respect for the person who DID something to alleviate death/suffering than the person who did nothing and declared themselves in the right.


----------



## Parrot

PariahParty said:


> Psychopathy, as a disorder defined by social behavior, is intrinsically tied to how individuals view and experience relationships. We were largely discussing feelings dissociation, which is a hallmark of the disorder. How blatantly must I relate whatever I say to psychopathy for you to stop ignorantly whining to moderators?


Like @Old Intern said, nothing to do with you. I enjoyed our little interactions, despite the superficial nature of my feisty comments. I would disagree that the disorder is based on interpersonal interactions. I believe that has more to do with sociopaths. Psychopaths are much more internal as the deviation is due to neurological components. There is nothing therapy could ever do to make me not a psychopath.

Went to the psychologist, today. After 35 minutes discussing ADHD, I said "You ready for the plot twist". She was captivated, at times, and I could see the look of discomfort on her face, on occasion. Mostly when I made violence jokes and reassured her I wasn't violent. After all, why would I pay money to go to a psychologist to threaten them? That makes no sense. I tried to explain I'm not anti-social, just don't care about other's feelings. It was difficult and I found myself sounding like I was Dahmer or Bundy haha.


----------



## shazam

drmiller100 said:


> The dilemma exists.
> 
> HOW YOU ANSWER the dilemma will be based on your ethical choices.
> 
> I don't know what I'd do. I do know if someone else pushed the fat man under the trolley to derail it, I'd understand.
> 
> I know I'd have a LOT more respect for the person who DID something to alleviate death/suffering than the person who did nothing and declared themselves in the right.


I've heard of that "would you push the fat man off the bridge to save the 5 people" dilemma. The dilemma as a whole is great to ask someone in a face to face interaction. Apparently, a psychopath wouldn't think twice about pushing the fat man off the bridge, but when asking someone with more empathy you will literally see them hesitate and ponder in thought over the choice presented in front them. 

I would assume with a psychopath there wouldn't be much of a response, and it would be noticeable in their reaction. But if I were to use this dilemma on somebody who knew the answers, and they lied about not knowing about the dilemma, but matched up to the psychopathic response, does that make them a psychopath?


----------



## Parrot

spidershane said:


> I've heard of that "would you push the fat man off the bridge to save the 5 people" dilemma. The dilemma as a whole is great to ask someone in a face to face interaction. Apparently, a psychopath wouldn't think twice about pushing the fat man off the bridge, but when asking someone with more empathy you will literally see them hesitate and ponder in thought over the choice presented in front them.
> 
> I would assume with a psychopath there wouldn't be much of a response, and it would be noticeable in their reaction. But if I were to use this dilemma on somebody who knew the answers, and they lied about not knowing about the dilemma, but matched up to the psychopathic response, does that make them a psychopath?


I just read the fat man dilemma. I wouldn't push him as I wouldn't want to be charged with murder. If I knew I wouldn't, then I would push him. I doubt I'd know that the fat man would effectively stop the trolley, so in real life, I doubt I'd do anything.


----------



## Old Intern

Drunk Parrot said:


> I just read the fat man dilemma. I wouldn't push him as I wouldn't want to be charged with murder. If I knew I wouldn't, then I would push him. I doubt I'd know that the fat man would effectively stop the trolley, so in real life, I doubt I'd do anything.


For the purpose of the exercise you are supposed to assume sacrificing the fat man will save the others. . . . . . Or maybe that is a measure of psychopathy too? The person who takes *more* risk with collateral damage, is more psychopathic than the person who would sacrifice one for the absolute certain safety of five? 

I watched a movie about Margaret Thatcher last night, never saw it before. She compared the Falkland Islands to Hawaii and Pearl Harbor. She cried about casualties and wrote letters to parents of dead solders, but still . . . . . . she made the call to go for it when her advisers were against it.


----------



## shazam

Drunk Parrot said:


> I just read the fat man dilemma. I wouldn't push him as I wouldn't want to be charged with murder. If I knew I wouldn't, then I would push him. I doubt I'd know that the fat man would effectively stop the trolley, so in real life, I doubt I'd do anything.


There's that logic! With me everything is feel orientated. I never thought about the fact I'd be charged with murder. I was too preoccupied in finding the best outcome for everyone involved. You were probably thinking what's the best outcome for me, which at the end of the day is right. I associate the dilemma with being at a funeral. I feel powerless knowing there's nothing I can do but be there. 

Another question is on animal rights. It's also a good question to ask a vegetarian: Here's a chicken...you eat this, or we kill another chicken. What would you do?
Compliments to Ali G.


----------



## Parrot

spidershane said:


> There's that logic! With me everything is feel orientated. I never thought about the fact I'd be charged with murder. I was too preoccupied in finding the best outcome for everyone involved. You were probably thinking what's the best outcome for me, which at the end of the day is right. I associate the dilemma with being at a funeral. I feel powerless knowing there's nothing I can do but be there.
> 
> Another question is on animal rights. It's also a good question to ask a vegetarian: Here's a chicken...you eat this, or we kill another chicken. What would you do?
> Compliments to Ali G.


I like chicken so I would eat it. If I was full, I'd say kill another chicken. They're just chickens; hundreds of thousands die every day. And it's more efficient to keep them cooped up, instead of wasting resources on free range chickens. For the life of me, I cannot understand the logic of ethical treatment followed by selfish consumption. I don't support waste, though, so a chicken farm that raised chickens just for the wings would bother me. I don't think farms do that, though, as it's more efficient to sell other parts of the chicken. 

It's the same reason why I find no fault with bull fighting. Occasionally, the bull wins. And when the bull loses, the village eats it. If the bull didn't fight, it would go to waste. While the fight commences, vendors & ticket sales produce profit. It would be different if the bull was tied down and just tortured to death. But the bull is running; the bull can win.

For an entirely different reason, I don't have any problems with animal fighting, including dogs but... it's not worth debating anyone over haha. I make some logical points and come off as terrible.



Old Intern said:


> For the purpose of the exercise you are supposed to assume sacrificing the fat man will save the others. . . . . . Or maybe that is a measure of psychopathy too? The person who takes *more* risk with collateral damage, is more psychopathic than the person who would sacrifice one for the absolute certain safety of five?
> 
> I watched a movie about Margaret Thatcher last night, never saw it before. She compared the Falkland Islands to Hawaii and Pearl Harbor. She cried about casualties and wrote letters to parents of dead solders, but still . . . . . . she made the call to go for it when her advisers were against it.


If I knew for certain that pushing the fat man would save 5 people's lives, then I would push him. The scenario is unrealistic, though, as I'd have no way of knowing I should do that.


----------



## drmiller100

Drunk Parrot said:


> They're just people; hundreds of thousands die every day. And it's more efficient to keep them cooped up, instead of wasting resources on free range chickens. For the life of me, I cannot understand the logic of ethical treatment followed by selfish consumption. I don't support waste, though, so a farm that raised people just for the wings would bother me. I don't think farms do that, though, as it's more efficient to sell other parts of the people.
> .


now read the previous paragraph.....


----------



## Parrot

drmiller100 said:


> now read the previous paragraph.....


I was confused for a second. Thought I had made a typo with 'people' instead of 'chickens'. Well your edit certainly would change the tone of that paragraph. In a way, the edit is more sobering, yet still slightly true. As people, we couldn't possibly live a fulfilling life if the weight of thousands dying weighed on us every day. Your edit brings to mind historical slavery, and the mindset that went with it. Of course, America has its own history with the institution, while the rest of history had even more barbaric practices. The idea was the slaves were a fixed asset designed to produce the maximum amount of output, with the least amount of upkeep.

I don't knock empathy as a concept. After all, without it, the world would not develop in a positive way. Certainly there's a reason why the majority of people are empathetic, or at least capable. But I don't think psychopathy is flawed. It probably isn't best to be the prevailing thought, but operating within the confines of empathetic restrictions, psychopathy/narcissism keeps the world turning. While it is important for idealists to constantly seek to improve humanity, the realist understands that thousands die everyday.

One thought I had a while back was on how SJWs can make positive changes. Basically, if they want to improve *whatever, part of their argument should be designed to convince a psychopath, or convince everyone but psychopaths. After all, psychopaths & narcissists are disproportionately represented in leadership positions. When they focus on pure ethical reasons, I think they meet the most resistance, as it lacks logic. The reason why slavery needed to die and people should be treated as more than chickens is rational. The emergence of industry & better farming inventions obviously helped. 

But other variables factored in as well. For example, Granting universal male suffrage, for former slaves, was beneficial to the historic Republican party which could use the extra votes to insure power, which the Republicans enjoyed for 3 quarters of a century before FDR's revolution. In modern days, African Americans, as well as other minorities, can enjoy their right to vote. I support their right to vote as it's part of the American system (Although I lean GOP haha). That right, by the 15th Amendment, was not powered by ethics. As a psychopath, all my decisions come with a 'public' quasi-ethical rationale. I recognize the importance that people place in justifying actions. Any justification, however, must be preceded by a utilitarian need. Such is the world of cause and effect.


----------



## Old Intern

@Drunk Parrot another angle or irony, on your mention of slavery; it could be said that the industrialized north, had nothing to loose and everything to gain with abolishment of slavery. They had no empathy with "States Rights" to maintain a way of life, and how the south wouldn't have known any real alternative in those days. I'm not endorsing slavery, just in case anyone misreads me. My point is that people can be so focused on empathy as a good thing, they can fail to recognize how empathizing could lead to supporting bad behavior too.


----------



## drmiller100

Drunk Parrot said:


> I As people, we couldn't possibly live a fulfilling life if the weight of thousands dying weighed on us every day. .



BBBBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZTTT

You flunk as a psychopath.

Now go back and read it one more time. This time, for cooped up, think apartments and meaningless jobs as bureaucrats and kids dying of dissentary and starvation because politics. 

Remember there are 7 BILLION (with a B) people on this earth. If we say average life expectancy is 100 years, 
7 billion / (365*100) = 200,000 die each day.

You are welcome.


----------



## shazam

Drunk Parrot said:


> I like chicken so I would eat it. If I was full, I'd say kill another chicken. They're just chickens; hundreds of thousands die every day. And it's more efficient to keep them cooped up, instead of wasting resources on free range chickens. For the life of me, I cannot understand the logic of ethical treatment followed by selfish consumption. I don't support waste, though, so a chicken farm that raised chickens just for the wings would bother me. I don't think farms do that, though, as it's more efficient to sell other parts of the chicken.
> 
> It's the same reason why I find no fault with bull fighting. Occasionally, the bull wins. And when the bull loses, the village eats it. If the bull didn't fight, it would go to waste. While the fight commences, vendors & ticket sales produce profit. It would be different if the bull was tied down and just tortured to death. But the bull is running; the bull can win.
> 
> For an entirely different reason, I don't have any problems with animal fighting, including dogs but... it's not worth debating anyone over haha. I make some logical points and come off as terrible.
> 
> 
> 
> If I knew for certain that pushing the fat man would save 5 people's lives, then I would push him. The scenario is unrealistic, though, as I'd have no way of knowing I should do that.


Or you could say "I'll eat the chicken then. One chicken is already dead, so if I really cared about the well being of animals I'd eat this dead chicken to save the other". When I think about cooped up animals I think of all the diseases that may come from them being in that environment. In some places or maybe most, the chickens are given steroids and over fed. So if you can imagine a 2 year old boy weighing three hundred pounds. The chickens size is supposedly equivalent to that. They basically collapse under their own feet. But it's still more chicken...I just don't want dirty chicken. A happy chicken would be a bonus. 

I didn't know the village ate the bull after the fight? I think it's banned now. Been banned for a while. El Senyor apprentice of Zorro, maracas and castanets chatter in the distance. 

I'm not much on the dog fighting. It has no choice in matter, it seems.


----------



## Old Intern

A bull fight somehow seems different - a lot, compared to a dog fight.

I can't stand those animal abuse commercials, I have to look away, it gets me, really.

I had a kitty cat for near 18 years. I cried when Punky died; and my Dad said "wow you *are* human".


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

I was advised recently by a psychologist that in a prison environment I'd be labeled a psychopath.

Some interesting stuff has come up when talking to her. She believes that because it represents intensity, I am attracted to and try to induce emotional turbulence. I play along. I try to surround myself with unstable people and repeat their behaviour. I described the way when in a fight I'll match somebody's energy and then for seemingly no reason just stop - asking whether this is really consistent with the profile. She thinks it's because (in failing) to emote in the way I want I also signal loss of control which I don't like so short-circuit it.

In the discussions, I mentioned the enneagram and said it sounds like like the type 3 trying to fulfil some image and, to my surprise, though she doesn't endorse the system completely, we found it a useful framework to compare against. By explaining why I didn't think I was this or that, etc., we were able to have a structured discussion about my core motivations which is interesting. I was set the goal of trying to stop myself getting caught up in this infatuation with emotional intensity before going to extremes to try to achieve them because I won't. So... No more playing pretend with myself. My next question was "What about with other people" and, as much as she didn't really like the question, that's not harmful to me because I'm "wearing them as a glazing and not trying to infuse them" which one is always glad to hear. 

Also showed her my personalitycafe account which was entertaining. She pointed out common themes. We discussed her tentative opinions on other members which turned out very differently to expected in some cases. Provided some insight into why I interact with certain people in the way I do.


----------



## Parrot

Fun fun, that must have been a long meeting or you met with her several times. When I met the most recent psychologist, we could barely cover ADHD, which was the reason I was there. (To get an update to date diagnosis for my meds).



> I was set the goal of trying to stop myself getting caught up in this infatuation with emotional intensity before going to extremes to try to achieve them because I won't. So... No more playing pretend with myself.


The hard part about change is I think psychopaths are more creatures of habit then people give them credit for. To change behavior, we must come up with a definitely logical reason to do so. It's tough, because one of the most compelling reasons not to change is "meh".


----------



## Old Intern

Drunk Parrot said:


> Fun fun, that must have been a long meeting or you met with her several times. When I met the most recent psychologist, we could barely cover ADHD, which was the reason I was there. (To get an update to date diagnosis for my meds).
> 
> 
> 
> The hard part about change is I think psychopaths are more creatures of habit then people give them credit for. To change behavior, we must come up with a definitely logical reason to do so. It's tough, because one of the most compelling reasons not to change is "meh".


I remember having plateaus, where I needed to be able to verbalize a new self improvement, or something like that. Typically, if I could get clear in my mind something I was going to start focusing on, its like I could just make up my mind and make a change, or learn a new skill and just make something happen - because I decided to. But often it (change or accomplishment) happened because there was some logical epiphany, something I learned or saw that opened my mind.

It could just be an excuse for procrastination, but I find myself looking for some kind of revelation, but I've heard most of it before? And then there is my ability to rationalize . . . . . .


@Drunk Parrot , do you stumble over your own *ability to rationalize*? I found this link (below) because of something in YouTube, recommendations - you know how they (youTube) keep track.

This would fit in your monster thread but I thought it might be more useful to us in present company or context of this thread

Forbes Welcome


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Drunk Parrot said:


> The hard part about change is I think psychopaths are more creatures of habit then people give them credit for. To change behavior, we must come up with a definitely logical reason to do so. It's tough, because one of the most compelling reasons not to change is "meh".


People misuse this 'logic' and 'rationality' when talking about psychopaths. It's self interested insofar that they don't have affective/emotional considerations of others removed from their own agenda and that's it. That doesn't make them 'logical', else we'd see self-preserving adaptive behaviours when this isn't the case-- There is absolutely an expansive mindset founded on high risk of 'losing it all'. Psychopaths are not game theorists, seeing the logical conclusions to every scenario. They just use all of their resources towards doing whatever arbitrary thing they want. Quite often it's illogical, insomuch that it's a really dumb idea, but this is the consequence of chasing dopamine. Addicts are idiots. Even when the psychopath knows they are probably not in an optimum situation, that "Meh" feeling is in the way. This is where the 'psychopaths don't learn from mistakes' mantra comes from-- It's not strictly true; They just don't really care enough about it to not have their fix.

Like I said before in the thread, psychopathic urges have always been defined as weak urges held back by weaker barriers. The only thing that really gets a psychopath to cross the boundary is dopamine.


----------



## Parrot

Occams Chainsaw said:


> People misuse this 'logic' and 'rationality' when talking about psychopaths. It's self interested insofar that they don't have affective/emotional considerations of others removed from their own agenda and that's it. That doesn't make them 'logical', else we'd see self-preserving adaptive behaviours when this isn't the case-- There is absolutely an expansive mindset founded on high risk of 'losing it all'. Psychopaths are not game theorists, seeing the logical conclusions to every scenario. They just use all of their resources towards doing whatever arbitrary thing they want. Quite often it's illogical, insomuch that it's a really dumb idea, but this is the consequence of chasing dopamine. Addicts are idiots. Even when the psychopath knows they are probably not in an optimum situation, that "Meh" feeling is in the way. This is where the 'psychopaths don't learn from mistakes' mantra comes from-- It's not strictly true; They just don't really care enough about it to not have their fix.
> 
> Like I said before in the thread, psychopathic urges have always been defined as weak urges held back by weaker barriers. The only thing that really gets a psychopath to cross the boundary is dopamine.


I said this on another thread:

"Meh, you're completely wrong haha. Decisions are made based on either personal emotions or personal logic. This does not mean the decisions are ethical or rational, respectively. For example, self destructing can be either emotional and/or logical. For me, I've self-destructed before based on not changing habits. Those decisions were based on the logic that change was too difficult, etc. This does not mean I was being rational, but my decisions were logical. Someone else could criticize my logic using an ethics appeal or more refined logic. Simply put, I consider logic to be building blocks, like Legos, for example. I can craft something up, call it a fort, and you think it is a shitastrophe. As terrible as I did, this does not change the fact that I built something using Legos. We could also point out when someone used a logical fallacy. This does not mean they weren't using logic, it means their logic sucked. In the vernacular, calling myself "logical" implies that I make rational decisions based on objectively sound logic. Like I said, I personally define logic as thoughts, in general.

So with my original statement, being devoid of empathy means someone relies on logic. Their logic might be batshit insane, but it is still logic."


----------



## FluffyTheAnarchist

Drunk Parrot said:


> I said this on another thread:
> 
> "Meh, you're completely wrong haha. Decisions are made based on either personal emotions or personal logic. This does not mean the decisions are ethical or rational, respectively. For example, self destructing can be either emotional and/or logical. For me, I've self-destructed before based on not changing habits. Those decisions were based on the logic that change was too difficult, etc. This does not mean I was being rational, but my decisions were logical. Someone else could criticize my logic using an ethics appeal or more refined logic. Simply put, I consider logic to be building blocks, like Legos, for example. I can craft something up, call it a fort, and you think it is a shitastrophe. As terrible as I did, this does not change the fact that I built something using Legos. We could also point out when someone used a logical fallacy. This does not mean they weren't using logic, it means their logic sucked. In the vernacular, calling myself "logical" implies that I make rational decisions based on objectively sound logic. Like I said, I personally define logic as thoughts, in general.
> 
> So with my original statement, being devoid of empathy means someone relies on logic. Their logic might be batshit insane, but it is still logic."


So what is motivating you in this situation? 
Is it the thrill-hunt rationalized by "logic", or is it "logic" triggering a thrill-hunt?
What comes first?


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> So what is motivating you in this situation?
> Is it the thrill-hunt rationalized by "logic", or is it "logic" triggering a thrill-hunt?
> What comes first?


I don't wish to speak for Parrot but the psychopath is motivated by the thrill-Hunt. If the logic came first (read: Not the dopamine chase), they'd be schizoid. Like Dexter. Dexter is a logic->thrill/hunt, where the logic is warped by his early childhood experience. He also has Schizoid Personality Disorder.


----------



## Parrot

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> So what is motivating you in this situation?
> Is it the thrill-hunt rationalized by "logic", or is it "logic" triggering a thrill-hunt?
> What comes first?


Are you talking about literally posting in this thread? I'm sharing an enjoyable conversation with my dear psychofriend about a relevant topic.

As far as in general, I am motivated by a need, which might be a need for a thrill. From there, I rationalize it using logic and sometimes an ethical appeal as well, in case I had to convince others. On the boring side, I was hungry, an hour ago. I decided to go to Krystal because a) it's close b) it's cheap c) it's happy hour, now, so I could get my food cheaper. I wasn't feeling Krystal, and it tasted like the same boring shit as always. On the more exciting side, I've bought and sold pills, before. My justification is that drugs should be legal and that morality shouldn't be legislated. But the thrill is what motivated me.


----------



## FluffyTheAnarchist

Occams Chainsaw said:


> I don't wish to speak for Parrot but the psychopath is motivated by the thrill-Hunt. If the logic came first (read: Not the dopamine chase), they'd be schizoid. Like Dexter. Dexter is a logic->thrill/hunt, where the logic is warped by his early childhood experience. He also has Schizoid Personality Disorder.


interesting! thanks!


----------



## FluffyTheAnarchist

Occams Chainsaw said:


> I was advised recently by a psychologist that in a prison environment I'd be labeled a psychopath.
> 
> Some interesting stuff has come up when talking to her. She believes that because it represents intensity, I am attracted to and try to induce emotional turbulence. I play along. I try to surround myself with unstable people and repeat their behaviour. I described the way when in a fight I'll match somebody's energy and then for seemingly no reason just stop - asking whether this is really consistent with the profile. She thinks it's because (in failing) to emote in the way I want I also signal loss of control which I don't like so short-circuit it.
> 
> In the discussions, I mentioned the enneagram and said it sounds like like the type 3 trying to fulfil some image and, to my surprise, though she doesn't endorse the system completely, we found it a useful framework to compare against. By explaining why I didn't think I was this or that, etc., we were able to have a structured discussion about my core motivations which is interesting. I was set the goal of trying to stop myself getting caught up in this infatuation with emotional intensity before going to extremes to try to achieve them because I won't. So... No more playing pretend with myself. My next question was "What about with other people" and, as much as she didn't really like the question, that's not harmful to me because I'm "wearing them as a glazing and not trying to infuse them" which one is always glad to hear.
> 
> Also showed her my personalitycafe account which was entertaining. She pointed out common themes. We discussed her tentative opinions on other members which turned out very differently to expected in some cases. Provided some insight into why I interact with certain people in the way I do.


speaking of intensity, dopamine, thrill/reward-seeking, image displays (aka e-3), emoting, and attachment, here is a fun read:
http://evolution.binghamton.edu/evos/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/fisher01.pdf

makes me wonder if empathy/intimacy/attachment can be "injected"


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> makes me wonder if empathy/intimacy/attachment can be "injected"


Goodness only knows what you meant by those inverted commas :wink:


----------



## Parrot

@Occams Chainsaw if there was a procedure to cure/fix our neurology to where we could experience emotions and empathy, would you be interested? Part of me says yes as it would be great to connect with others and experience love. I suppose it'd be nice to actually care about something and feel fully committed to an ideal. The other part says no as I don't want to experience the negative emotions. 

Every once in awhile, I feel guilt. It will last a couple of minutes and I just ignore it until it goes away. It isn't very intense, but I can imagine that typical feelings of guilt are quite intense, considering it actually motivates people. My bi-monthy episode of guilt or even shame is but an ant bite, by others describe intense emotion, like a dagger to the heart. If I were "cured", I'd probably be driven to suicide as the weight of guilt, from how I've acted in the past, buries me.

It's also nice, also, to not experience anxiety, to be pretty agreeable without anger, and not be self-conscious as motivated by shame. The choice would be the difference from choosing to live in limbo or alternating between heaven or hell. At this point, I'd refuse such treatment as I at least know what I have, now.


----------



## FluffyTheAnarchist

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Goodness only knows what you meant by those inverted commas :wink:


 i guess, no matter how realistic that may sound, it's still hard for me to compute that an abstract concept can be physically injected into one's body... for some reason it was more compelling to stress the verb inject, than the noun(s) (the abstract concepts themselves)... because the actual act of physically injecting an emotion feels absurd.


----------



## FluffyTheAnarchist

Drunk Parrot said:


> @_Occams Chainsaw_ if there was a procedure to cure/fix our neurology to where we could experience emotions and empathy, would you be interested? Part of me says yes as it would be great to connect with others and experience love. I suppose it'd be nice to actually care about something and feel fully committed to an ideal. The other part says no as I don't want to experience the negative emotions.
> 
> Every once in awhile, I feel guilt. It will last a couple of minutes and I just ignore it until it goes away. It isn't very intense, but I can imagine that typical feelings of guilt are quite intense, considering it actually motivates people. My bi-monthy episode of guilt or even shame is but an ant bite, by others describe intense emotion, like a dagger to the heart. If I were "cured", I'd probably be driven to suicide as the weight of guilt, from how I've acted in the past, buries me.
> 
> It's also nice, also, to not experience anxiety, to be pretty agreeable without anger, and not be self-conscious as motivated by shame. The choice would be the difference from choosing to live in limbo or alternating between heaven or hell. At this point, I'd refuse such treatment as I at least know what I have, now.


It would be lovely if you were in control, with a reliable on and off switch, otherwise, you are just trading one mixed set of cards for another. 

intimacy is great, but so is peace of mind.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Drunk Parrot said:


> @Occams Chainsaw if there was a procedure to cure/fix our neurology to where we could experience emotions and empathy, would you be interested?


No. I don't want it. 

I'd like to feel content. I'd like for what I have to be enough. I'd like to feel attached to the things I have and not see my life, what I earn, what I do as an arbitrary accumulation of no significance to me. Philosophers advocate letting go of attachment to 'things' I have this naturally but I also have this urge to accumulate just for the sake of it, because nothing else compels me - losing it all just isn't something that worries me, but nothing else fills the gap. I want to be a full glass but I'm a bottomless barrel. I'd like something to compel me. I'd like a force; Passion. I'd like to feel that something was my life goal. I want something that isn't a function of power or narcissism or hedonism. I try, but really I only create the illusion of depth beyond my extremely shallow self. I'd like to have somebody that I love, if only in the sense that I want to keep them around because we're comfortable together. I want them to love me in the same sense. I want to feel intimacy like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerence I want to feel fulfilled.

All this said, I have no particular want to have empathy. I don't know why you would. I don't feel guilty like you. It never creeps in. I feel emotional sometimes. Just not for others. It's an advantage with no real detriment to me. If you told me I had to give it up to get everything else I want, I'd have a tough time deciding. Probably I'd take it right now but with the knowledge of the disgust and contempt I feel for those kinds of emotions people feel, I'd probably turn my nose up at the offer at other times when I'm not feeling so sorry for myself. Give it an hour and I'll laugh at it. My perception of emotion, like I said earlier, is conflicted by the reality of them and my warped obsession with whatever others are feeling and so my view isn't very stable.


----------



## mangodelic psycho

Fi suks bruh.


----------



## Parrot

@Occams Chainsaw I'd want empathy for certain people. Also, part of love is empathy. You can't love something unless you empathize with it. I seriously doubt I could ever be an objectively good father. Well, I could never be the primary caretaker. I'd be best if the kids visited me every other weekend or something like that. That way we'd just do fun shit and I'd have the energy to engage them. Same way, if I were to have a "soul mate". We'd need to see each sporadically so that our interactions are ideal. After all, narcissism values the ideal and seeing my woman at her dirtiest would be a huge turn-off. Look pretty and focus on me. I could date a morally dubious girl if it was more a friendship. I'd probably lose interest in sex though. But that would be my preferred relationship, if the idea is our relationship is completely open. That also makes me, as most people would describe, an awful, horrible person, who should never get married. You shouldn't either haha. 

Anyway, it's nice not to be bothered by the plight of others. Like @FluffyTheAnarchist said, peace of mind is important.


----------



## Old Intern

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Today, the psychologist gave me a new challenge:* To accept people as they are and, in cases where they are struggling, support their progress towards what they want without judgement. *I'm faking it right now and I think it's coming out a little. I mean, I'm not being passive-aggressive, but I think probably those who know me better know it's insincere. Something similar happened through the week when I was apologising for upsets I didn't mean to cause. I really didn't mean to cause them so I don't think any of them were insincere - that was the point - but those who I've hurt before saw them as empty. Boy who cried wolf, yada yada.
> 
> She's not said it yet but this is an attempt to explore healthy ways to shift my perspective. She's clearly trying to find a vagueness somewhere in my interactions with people that can be exploited for a more progressive relationship with them. I guess I'm okay with that. Often I'm dubious of shrinks- I don't like the idea of some idiot screwing around in my head- but this one is smart.


I relate to the bold part - exactly.
I don't look at it as being fake, but this is why I often prefer business? This is what I called babysitting further up in the thread. It's not that I even feel any need to tell people what to do instead of what they might be doing - but I'm aware this is a game of keeping the peace?

Sounds like an improvement for you though if you have to smooth over some old hostilities between you and important people in your life. Sounds normal (to me) if this is takes a little time going by, before making things better.


----------



## Parrot

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Hehe. This is a HPD male. They come in two varieties. This is the more cliched kind.
> 
> Today I'm thinking about what I like that isn't... 'bad', in whatever arbitrary sense of the word:
> -Sleep
> -Dreaming (in sleep)
> -Food
> -Sex
> .. So, with the base desires out of the way:
> - ?
> 
> lol. This may just be a lack of introspection. The day before yesterday I found out that my favourite animal is the mantis shrimp. I guess that's a start  Though is that an arbitrary thing? I think the way I chose it was pretty arbitrary. I got asked what my favourite animal was and couldn't answer. Why would I have a favourite animal? So I spent a good 2-3 minutes thinking about what I liked most as a kid and nothing came to mind, until I remembered all the cool facts about the mantis shrimp and I guess I was happy to settle on it. Maybe I just don't spend enough time thinking about my preferences but I think I was just happy to have an 'acceptable' answer. In MBTI terms, would we call this T>F? I'd probably consider this to be inf. F (and probably inf. Fi) because generally their value system is very underdeveloped. So this might be unrelated to the thread - Just a thought I had.
> 
> What is your favourite animal?


Read this right after you posted it. Still cannot think of a good answer. As far as the persona, I like the fox. If I were to have a pet, I'd choose a cat, but I'm allergic. Just don't like animals.



> Today, the psychologist gave me a new challenge: To accept people as they are and, in cases where they are struggling, support their progress towards what they want without judgement.


Why do you have to support them. Is not judging them not enough?



> She's not said it yet but this is an attempt to explore healthy ways to shift my perspective. She's clearly trying to find a vagueness somewhere in my interactions with people that can be exploited for a more progressive relationship with them. I guess I'm okay with that. Often I'm dubious of shrinks- I don't like the idea of some idiot screwing around in my head- but this one is smart.


I must have missed it from an earlier post, but why are you seeing one? Is it on your own accord, doctor ordered, or court ordered?


----------



## Parrot

This thread currently has +22k views. I've gotten more narc supply from that then I get from real life haha.

Below me watch Earthious add nothing.


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

Macaws
Hyacinth macaws ^_^


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

Drunk Parrot said:


> Below me watch Earthious add nothing.


It was enough to get you to change your post :tongue:

:dry:


----------



## Old Intern

@Drunk Parrot I'd say "your" readership is because of *me*.

But then again . . . . . . . how do you think you get so many likes?


----------



## Parrot

Old Intern said:


> @Drunk Parrot I'd say "your" readership is because of *me*.
> 
> But then again . . . . . . . how do you think you get so many likes?


Only 1 view per IP address. Doesn't matter how many times you click on the page.


----------



## Old Intern

Drunk Parrot said:


> Only 1 view per IP address. Doesn't matter how many times you click on the page.


I'm saying I've guided your thread part of the time and I bring views here! But you get liked more than me. Why do you think you get more likes?


----------



## Parrot

Old Intern said:


> I'm saying I've guided your thread part of the time and I bring views here! But you get liked more than me. Why do you think you get more likes?


Alright, take credit.

As far as likes, I'm more charming than you.


----------



## Parrot

@Psychopomp I'm hijacking you to this thread as I didn't want to derail the other thread. Welcome. Here's your reply to my post from this thread: http://personalitycafe.com/guess-type/27881-donald-trump-9.html#post25946970

My initial post:


> All types can be genetic narcissists. He's more of a psychopath, though.
> 
> Trump ESTP 8w7 3w4 7w8 so/sp which is a about as assertive a person can be and certainly is great for the political arena.





> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think he is a psychopath.
> 
> Psychopaths lack empathy, urge control, prone to violence and lacking in foresight. A perfect example of a psychopath is Tuco from Breaking Bad. Highly aggressive, socially assertive, violent, impulsive, etc.
> 
> You might be willing or able to stretch Trump into this, but I think it is a mistake. Rather, what he very likely is would be a narcissist:
> 
> 
> Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements).
> Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.
> Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions).
> Requires excessive admiration.
> Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations.
> Is inter-personally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends.
> Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others.
> Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her.
> Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.
> 
> (from DSM IV via Wikipedia)
> 
> See, there's Trump. Narcissist. That handles pretty much all of it and makes psychopath not really be necessary or fit at all.


Half of the traits for narcissism describe psychopaths as well. Clearly, the two are related. That being said, psychopaths abound plenty is regular society and many also enjoy positions of power. Tuco is a great representation of a psychopath but he is far from the common example. This is simply because psychopathy is not one size fits all. Also my good INTP, don't relegate yourself to relying of diagnosis criteria from the DSM. Certainly you can think for yourself.
@Ixim hijacking you as well. From the same thread in response to my post:



> Why exactly couldn't he be both? NPD and PPD are different disorders after all.


The two are listed as separate categories under Cluster B. By that, I'd argue psychopaths have narcissistic tendencies but not always the other way around. Interesting use of terms with 'PPD'. I'm used to seeing it written as ASPD, which I don't think is accurate, or just psychopathy.

Anyway, if Trump is a psychopath, as I would claim, then he would also be narcissistic. Being a psychopath automatically means a person is also narcissistic. The difference is that he doesn't take himself as seriously as a typical narcissist.


----------



## Psychopomp

Drunk Parrot said:


> @_Psychopomp_ I'm hijacking you to this thread as I didn't want to derail the other thread. Welcome. Here's your reply to my post from this thread: http://personalitycafe.com/guess-type/27881-donald-trump-9.html#post25946970
> 
> My initial post:
> 
> Half of the traits for narcissism describe psychopaths as well. Clearly, the two are related. That being said, psychopaths abound plenty is regular society and many also enjoy positions of power. Tuco is a great representation of a psychopath but he is far from the common example. This is simply because psychopathy is not one size fits all. Also my good INTP, don't relegate yourself to relying of diagnosis criteria from the DSM. Certainly you can think for yourself.
> @_Ixim_ hijacking you as well. From the same thread in response to my post:
> 
> The two are listed as separate categories under Cluster B. By that, I'd argue psychopaths have narcissistic tendencies but not always the other way around. Interesting use of terms with 'PPD'. I'm used to seeing it written as ASPD, which I don't think is accurate, or just psychopathy.
> 
> Anyway, if Trump is a psychopath, as I would claim, then he would also be narcissistic. Being a psychopath automatically means a person is also narcissistic. The difference is that he doesn't take himself as seriously as a typical narcissist.


Well, I think that while the DSM is anything but perfect, it has the virtue of being a standard from which to operate. If you can't be correct, at least be coherent. I'd rather that then people being able to define psychopathy willy nilly however they choose. 

Like the idea of psychopaths being in positions of power. I don't think that is true and cannot be true but I guess it depends on your definition of psychopath... and if psychopath can be so broad as to include a functional big-wig and also Tuco, then it is just too broad.

Anyway, narcissism lacks the violent/aggressive spiteful tendencies of psychopathy (here I mean antisocial personality disorder) and I do think that narcissists do feel empathy but that they simple aren't able to recognize signals and needs in others. Their empathy is completely mitigated and obfuscated by the symptoms of the disorder. It is not missing, but misdirected and ineffectual. I might be biased because I am close with a TEXTBOOK narcissist. Basically I know a Donald Trump (in a thousand ways - this person got rich and conducts business like Trump does - is superficial like Trump - and even had delusions of grandeur and spent millions of dollars running for congress [and almost winning] on his own grandiose delusions and need). 

Anyway, Trump is a TEXTBOOK DSM Narcissist. He isn't at all an antisocial 'psychopath'. He just isn't. He isn't violent, he does show forethought, and while impulsive it isn't an aspect of his disorder, he doesn't de-sync with social norms (rather, he taps into them), etc, etc, etc. 

The idea of the secret sociopath manipulator is a romantic notion that is probably not real, but if it is, Trump isn't it. I can think of no examples of a psychopathic CEO. I don't think it would work out. Psychopaths are far too impulsive. Again, think Tuco. He is what a psychopath is. I can think of a lot of people in business, however, who are Narcissists.


----------



## sinaasappel

I totally read trump is a textbook bdsm narcissist 


Sent from Mini-Mangos iPod touch using Tapatalk


----------



## drmiller100

GIA Diamonds said:


> I totally read trump is a textbook bdsm narcissist
> 
> lk


as is ANY politician at the national level over the past 50 years...............


----------



## sinaasappel

drmiller100 said:


> as is ANY politician at the national level over the past 50 years...............


Lmfao 


Sent from Mini-Mangos iPod touch using Tapatalk


----------



## Parrot

Psychopomp said:


> Well, I think that while the DSM is anything but perfect, it has the virtue of being a standard from which to operate. If you can't be correct, at least be coherent. I'd rather that then people being able to define psychopathy willy nilly however they choose.


I completely agree that definitions are important. Currently, psychopaths' neurological activity shows deficiencies in the frontal cortex and the Amygdala. Outwardly those deficiencies are expressed as a need for stimulation and narcissistic tendencies. Psychopathy is NOT defined as ASPD, nor considered interchangeable by experts. One describes personality type while the other describes behavior. Obviously, psychopaths can be anti-social and the ones who are can certainly be described as the most lethal.



> Like the idea of psychopaths being in positions of power. I don't think that is true and cannot be true but I guess it depends on your definition of psychopath... and if psychopath can be so broad as to include a functional big-wig and also Tuco, then it is just too broad.


Psychopaths are uncommon but 1% is not exactly _rare_.

* *




The most startling finding to emerge from Hare's work is that the popular image of the psychopath as a remorseless, smiling killer -- Paul Bernardo, Clifford Olson, John Wayne Gacy -- while not wrong, is incomplete. Yes, almost all serial killers, and most of Canada's dangerous offenders, are psychopaths, but violent criminals are just a tiny fraction of the psychopaths around us. Hare estimates that 1 percent of the population -- 300,000 people in Canada -- are psychopaths. Psychopaths Among Us, by Robert Hercz



Psychopaths definitely find themselves in positions of power. Hell, I was Vice President of my fraternity.

* *




The corporate lexicon is full of bloodthirsty metaphors. Business is cutthroat; those who succeed are sharks; and they make a killing. What better place for a psychopath to really shine? Lots of CEOs are perfectly lovely, I’m sure, but study after study suggests that 4 percent of them—four times as many people as in the general population—qualify as psychopaths.
10 Careers With the Most Psychopaths | Alternet






> Anyway, narcissism lacks the violent/aggressive spiteful tendencies of psychopathy (here I mean antisocial personality disorder) and I do think that narcissists do feel empathy but that they simple aren't able to recognize signals and needs in others. Their empathy is completely mitigated and obfuscated by the symptoms of the disorder. It is not missing, but misdirected and ineffectual. I might be biased because I am close with a TEXTBOOK narcissist. Basically I know a Donald Trump (in a thousand ways - this person got rich and conducts business like Trump does - is superficial like Trump - and even had delusions of grandeur and spent millions of dollars running for congress [and almost winning] on his own grandiose delusions and need).


You are biased, and that's fine. I'll agree that narcissism, by itself, is not inherently violent. I'd argue that psychopaths aren't inherently violent either. But engaging in violent activity, not feeling remorse, and failing to learn emotional lessons means the violence can grow. That is why some narcissists are malignant narcissists. They are the ruthless Frank Underwoods of the world who still have a weak need for narc supply. Some psychopaths, like yours truly, are not prone to violence simply because there isn't a reason to do so. (Well I did throw a guy on top of his car one time)



> Anyway, Trump is a TEXTBOOK DSM Narcissist. He isn't at all an antisocial 'psychopath'. He just isn't. He isn't violent, he does show forethought, and while impulsive it isn't an aspect of his disorder, he doesn't de-sync with social norms (rather, he taps into them), etc, etc, etc.


I agree he isn't anti-social. Again, ASPD is how we define sociopaths, not psychopaths. Both narcissists and psychopaths can be sociopathic.



> The idea of the secret *sociopath* manipulator is a romantic notion that is probably not real, but if it is, Trump isn't it. I can think of no examples of a psychopathic CEO. I don't think it would work out. Psychopaths are far too impulsive. Again, think Tuco. He is what a psychopath is. I can think of a lot of people in business, however, who are Narcissists.


You're interchanging terms. One of the above links suggest 4% of CEOs are psychopaths. At that level of power, they're so good at hiding it that even they might not realize they're a psychopath.


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

> James Fallon [...] accidentally discovered that he was a*psychopath*and then he*wrote a book*about the experience.


Things you don't hear everyday :laughing:

I am surprised to see accountants in the least ten chart, but it makes sense, I think, understanding the motivations of the psychopath.


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

How do you recognize a psychopath in real life?
I think I might know one that I worked with on a class project (because there are some very obvious signs, which I don't want to share just because they are more specific)but you're obviously not always going to get that from everyone, especially upon brief interaction. So I'm just curious, what specific features should you look for? 
And how would you distinguish psychopathic behaviors from people with just similar characteristics (again upon brief encounters or limited interactions )?


----------



## Psychopomp

Drunk Parrot said:


> I completely agree that definitions are important. Currently, psychopaths' neurological activity shows deficiencies in the frontal cortex and the Amygdala. Outwardly those deficiencies are expressed as a need for stimulation and narcissistic tendencies. Psychopathy is NOT defined as ASPD, nor considered interchangeable by experts. One describes personality type while the other describes behavior. Obviously, psychopaths can be anti-social and the ones who are can certainly be described as the most lethal.
> 
> 
> 
> Psychopaths are uncommon but 1% is not exactly _rare_.
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The most startling finding to emerge from Hare's work is that the popular image of the psychopath as a remorseless, smiling killer -- Paul Bernardo, Clifford Olson, John Wayne Gacy -- while not wrong, is incomplete. Yes, almost all serial killers, and most of Canada's dangerous offenders, are psychopaths, but violent criminals are just a tiny fraction of the psychopaths around us. Hare estimates that 1 percent of the population -- 300,000 people in Canada -- are psychopaths. Psychopaths Among Us, by Robert Hercz
> 
> 
> 
> Psychopaths definitely find themselves in positions of power. Hell, I was Vice President of my fraternity.
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The corporate lexicon is full of bloodthirsty metaphors. Business is cutthroat; those who succeed are sharks; and they make a killing. What better place for a psychopath to really shine? Lots of CEOs are perfectly lovely, I’m sure, but study after study suggests that 4 percent of them—four times as many people as in the general population—qualify as psychopaths.
> 10 Careers With the Most Psychopaths | Alternet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are biased, and that's fine. I'll agree that narcissism, by itself, is not inherently violent. I'd argue that psychopaths aren't inherently violent either. But engaging in violent activity, not feeling remorse, and failing to learn emotional lessons means the violence can grow. That is why some narcissists are malignant narcissists. They are the ruthless Frank Underwoods of the world who still have a weak need for narc supply. Some psychopaths, like yours truly, are not prone to violence simply because there isn't a reason to do so. (Well I did throw a guy on top of his car one time)
> 
> 
> 
> I agree he isn't anti-social. Again, ASPD is how we define sociopaths, not psychopaths. Both narcissists and psychopaths can be sociopathic.
> 
> 
> 
> You're interchanging terms. One of the above links suggest 4% of CEOs are psychopaths. At that level of power, they're so good at hiding it that even they might not realize they're a psychopath.


I don't know what your symptoms are, so I can't comment until I hear them, but I think disorders are those things which make you unable to function or make you do harm or unable to gain self-awareness, etc. Short of that, I guess it is murkier. 

There is an anthropic/darwinian principle involved in the idea of someone who doesn't feel empathy being in a position where they exploit people. I was once interviewed for a job by people who make websites that were deeply unscrupulous and they didn't care at all.... but they weren't really psychopaths. They just had problems with empathy. If you want to call that 'psychopath', I guess you can. 'High functioning sociopath'? I don't know. It is a gamut, I am sure. 

But, we have to be clear with terms. There is a big difference between feeling disconnected from people and unconcerned with their well-being ... and being an actual psychopath. A difference between "i don't feel empathy for people" and destructive insane behavior. I don't know the best way to delineate these things but they must be delineated better than 'some psychopaths aren't violent' or whatever.

If I should differentiate sociopath and psychopath, you'll have to help me know how to do so. There does not seem to be a clear consensus on that differentiation.


----------



## Parrot

Earthious said:


> How do you recognize a psychopath in real life?
> I think I might know one that I worked with on a class project (because there are some very obvious signs, which I don't want to share just because they are more specific)but you're obviously not always going to get that from everyone, especially upon brief interaction. So I'm just curious, what specific features should you look for?
> And how would you distinguish psychopathic behaviors from people with just similar characteristics (again upon brief encounters or limited interactions )?


What good is it to tell you how to spot one? Psychopaths aren't animals, like bears, where if you spot one, there's certain things to do. Of course, some people suggest "run like hell". Run to where? Besides, if a psychopath sees you running they might take off after you for fun.

Anyway, there is nothing to gain by just spotting one. The key is how you interact. Currently, I live with 3 random guys in a 4 bedroom apartment. We do our own thing and I leave them alone, vice-versa. What good would it be to learn I'm a psychopath. All that would do is make them paranoid, without changing my plan to _not_ bother with them. So learning to spot one is less about spotting a psychopath and more about spotting if someone is trying to take advantage of you. 

*Traits to look for:*
1. Narcissism - Look it up. Watch movies/shows. House of Cards, Arrested Development, Always Sunny, etc show solid examples of narcissistic tendencies. They take situations, where most people learn a valuable lesson, and flip it to where everyone else is at fault.
2. Need for stimulation - Does someone seem ADD? Even though they might not be hyper, do they get distracted easily and look for new opportunities?
3. Shallow Effect - Very little emotional response to most issues that do not pertain to themselves.

These are some ways to spot psychopaths, malignant narcissists, and sociopaths. Without the knowledge, you won't be able to differentiate. All three, however, are different and the diversity continues within each category.

*If you do spot one of them:*

1. Act like you belong - Showing fear is a way to become a target. Think about it, I'm still human. It's kind of offensive if someone were to recoil in horror at the knowledge of me and I hadn't even done anything. Ironically, it makes a 'path' more likely to fuck with you by drawing attention to yourself.
2. Stick to logic - don't make emotional appeals. If you do, back it up with logic.
3. Don't expect emotional attachment - You aren't expected to offer profound emotions. For me, a friendship is formed quickly and it's shallow. I don't need people to get close. If you do get close, understand that dark secrets are swapped as collateral. 
4. If you're going to challenge, prepare to win - Let them do their thing, otherwise. If you find yourself vying for control, then it's no holds barred.
5. Be useful - Have something about you that is useful. If a psychopathic colleague, you consider a friend, is up for promotion, they wouldn't be offended if you tried to ride their coattails. After all, they'd do the same. They just wouldn't help you because you're a work friend. After all, there never was a real connection. They'd help you because you're good at what you do. Psychopaths see life, and people, as assets and liabilities. There's a reason they often become successful in business.


----------



## drmiller100

anyone seen Dead Pool?

Best
Movie
EVER


----------



## drmiller100

Old Intern said:


> I
> 
> As for your argument about most beneficial, by your logic, in some conditions, for a while, in some societies - being dumb is a good breeding trait.


have you seen the movie Idiocracy? Dumb is the MOST successful breeding trait in the developed world today.


----------



## Old Intern

drmiller100 said:


> have you seen the movie Idiocracy? Dumb is the MOST successful breeding trait in the developed world today.


Haven't seen it but have heard about it. 

This comment was really a side thing to my main point that you can't separate evolution from things like history and politics. At least for humans (and maybe birds) and a few animal social structures I don't know that much about, societies as a whole group also play a part in what survives or gets prioritized into future generations. So of course cooperation matters as a strategy, but I think you can't write off that regardless of how psychopathy works for the individual, it also contains traits that society needs, if only for **specific situations.

I have to say though, from some of your comments here I'm glad to have not become prey.:whoa:

**In a prev. post I was using Genghis Khan as an example of situation in history.


----------



## sinaasappel

drmiller100 said:


> yeah, I'm just a regular uneducated dumbass incapable of following a discussion regarding techniques for evolutionary success given a Darwinian or social model.
> 
> Let me put the dots closer together for you.
> I impregnate 10 women, and leave. sometimes Hubby knows I banged his woman, sometimes she doesn't mention it to him. Maybe only 1/2 grow up. I repeat that across 20 tribes scattered hither and yon.
> You act as gamma male, and don't get laid, and maintain the social order. Maybe you get one woman pregnant, maybe you do your duty and raise my kids.


XD wat? Is this how you treat your women :tongue::laughing:



drmiller100 said:


> have you seen the movie Idiocracy? Dumb is the MOST successful breeding trait in the developed world today.


Duh!


Sent from Mini-Mangos iPod touch using Tapatalk


----------



## drmiller100

GIA Diamonds said:


> XD wat? Is this how you treat your women :tongue::laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> Dk



smiles........ Oh no sweety, I was just demonstrating how some OTHER jerk could be successful with a non empathic attitude in propagating genes...........


----------



## Parrot

Alright, you damn INTP, you sure type a lot haha. @drmiller100 summed it up well with "blah blah blah". I wouldn't say that you were spouting off nonsense, however. You clearly gave a lot of thought and provided reasonable analysis so it deserves an insightful reply.



Psychopomp said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Antisocial behavior, and lack of empathy would be aggressively and universally selected against in the development of the species. Lack of empathy for one's mate, kin, and children is a massive disadvantage. High trust retaliator strategies would wipe out even the most capable psychopath. Live together or die alone, as it is said.


This assumes the natural selection is much smarter than it really is. Beneficial traits aren't selected because they're better in the long run. So it's not like natural selection would weed people out. Also, your bias on the topic shows when you consider Tuco to be the prototypical psychopath. He is not so please do not picture me or other psychopaths as little Tucos.



> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But, with the numbers you are suggesting, psychopathy as you describe it is still thriving in small numbers. The only way this seems possible is a scenario in which those psychopaths who were best able to emulate normality and exist within normal boundaries for long enough to breed were highly selected for relative to other psychopaths. This is actually a strong argument for the idea of the 'hidden' or high-functioning psychopath. ASPD would have been powerfully mitigated in the development of the species, but 'recessive' psychopaths... that is, psychopaths whose symptoms did not get them attacked by retaliators (again, it is inevitable that most humans are natural retaliators against anti-socials, because this strategy performs better than non-retaliators [either altruistic or apathetic] - ostracizing or punishing deviants is an IDEAL social strategy that pretty much all successful social species embody). ASPD as described in the DSM is about as bad as it can get and still remain viable even in very very small numbers.


As drmiller100 pointed out, sex/procreation does not need to happen as a result of love and intimacy. Genghis Khan is the ancestor to millions of people and he probably didn't have the courtesy to get consent from most women he slept with. Besides, psychopaths can often be great at sex and provide a lot of excitement. Also, like I've mentioned before, psychopathy does not automatically translate into anti-social behavior. There is correlation, but not causation.

Also psychopaths can be great actors. The ones who were "destroyed" as you assume would not have been so great. Perhaps they were ejected from the gene pool?



> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It occurs to me, though, that this strategy would only survive well in men. In the development of the species, men could get away with lacking empathy for their own children. Not women. Even hidden or high-functioning psychopathy would be aggressively selected against in women. It highly likely, then, that if hidden or high-functioning psychopathic traits were to survive, it would be mainly in men. Even then, the lack of empathy for mates and for kin is a huge disadvantage and would require and highly favor those who could emulate empathy, who were 'effectively' empathic... who would feel compelled to fit into society despite the lack of empathy. An alternate strategy that might have worked is highly sexually aggressive psychopaths... who were able to procreate before being destroyed by the group. But that would be a terrible strategy compared to the 'hidden' or high-functioning one.... though it seems inevitable that among those without empathy, sexually aggressive/promiscuous strategies would crop up and be successful - but would have to be paired with some other strategy.


This might be, but men can have daughters. Part of psychopathy is high testosterone and thinking cognition. The latter is my personal bias, but Feelers with similar neurology are...something else. I am not sure what that would be. They probably just get lumped in with narcissists.



> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any open or perceivable psychopathic strategy would have to surround itself somehow with a cohesive group that tolerated their behavior, in whom they could compel altruism (by force or deceit), or, again, the altruistic groups would destroy them (really, there is no way even such forced altruism groups could survive in anything but the most fringe situations, because high empathy strategies are just way way more successful - they cannot compete in any extended contest). It seems that they would do well in gangs and in military situations, where violent retribution could replace natural altruism. This would allow the psychopath to be tolerated and to protect themselves. Obviously, again, this profoundly favors men. The result would be 'gang' genes. Psychopathic men who were naturally capable of creating packs, and inclined to militaristic mentality to create and justify a social group that tolerated them or was unable to retaliate against them.


Reasonable enough.



> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: I don't think this could work in a corporate environment, though. Psychopaths just don't seem to be ideal in this scenario. Narcissists would do so much better... that is, those who have low empathy whose strategy is strongly oriented toward social approval and grandiosity. Psychopaths are at a net disadvantage unless they can compensate with Narcissistic traits. They are all around at a disadvantage unless they can create a gang of some kind. A group that does not require empathy and favors those who are not hindered by empathy. Corporations with empathic leaders and an environment of empathy will unilaterally outperform psychopathic ones... and while psychopaths could hide in such an organization, they don't have any advantages there. Everything works against them. They are having to fake something that comes naturally to everyone else. If they step out of bounds, they will be retaliated against by the group. The only advantage they could leverage would be a 'junta' of some kind... but this relies on social instability and/or a great deal of corruption. Hostile takeovers, or some external or situational advantage that required their lack of empathy to capitalize on. An example of this would be HIGHLY unethical businesses, like drug cartels, but these are essentially gangs, not corporations. The best they could hope for is a Stalin scenario, but you see what he had to do to maintain his advantage over empathic strategies. Only with that level of aggression and terror can the psychopath stave off the retaliation of the social group. It cannot last, mainly because it is an inferior strategy. They never last. Corporations run by a psychopath will not last and will not do well in the long-term. They will self-destruct.


This shows your bias that psychopaths=Tuco. Others assume all psychopaths are like Ted Bundy.



> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Someone has probably written a book about this? Psychopathy must be viewed first from an evolutionary perspective, I think, and game theory. The above are just some 'from the hip' ideas for how it might play out.
> 
> But, anyway, your OP struck me as containing a lot of implied empathy. Social condemnation of the CEO who supported prop 8.. that alone was highly social. The consternation at the idea of empathic people suddenly turning off. I asked myself, 'why would a psychopath care at ALL?' yet you offhandedly did care. Maybe it wasn't an emotion, maybe you didn't or couldn't feel anything, but you nevertheless seemed to make a moral judgement in both cases, and were invested enough to bring it up as if had occupied you. Why is that? Again, why would a psychopath care?


Good questions. If a psychopath didn't care about anything, why would they even continue to live? Psychopaths can be robotic, at times, but aren't actually robots. In my signature, it shows that I am social instinct first. I am interested in society and I think that trait makes me more pro-social. The inferior self-preservation makes me highly parasitic, though, with individual people. I type/speak well, but I've taken advantage of many people's generosity. As far as the moral judgment, I am definitely against people playing God's mouthpiece, which is why I play devil's advocate. I may not feel strongly enough to die for that, but it doesn't mean I can't believe in it.


----------



## Parrot

Psychopomp said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that empathy itself is not required... but I'd argue that having empathy grants an advantage in a highly social environment. That is to say, the natural instinct and urge for selective altruism is an advantage. If it were missing, we'd have a problem.
> 
> More importantly, if a society lacking in empathy were truly as or more viable than one with it, then our species would not be full of empathic people. The reason we show empathy is BECAUSE it is the superior strategy. It is the last man standing in a pool of competing strategies. *We won.*


In regards to empathy, it is a great thing if you have it. If someone is capable of empathy, they are a piece of shit if they don't use it. For psychopaths, they are a piece of shit if they are more liability than asset. Many psychopaths have done important things in history. Morally questionable, sure, but they are movers and shakers. In regards to the bold, please don't picture life as empaths vs psychopaths. The latter is on the fringe of society's problems, not the root cause.



> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I agree with that... still, it is a disadvantageous situation on the whole. It is very niche without many obvious advantages at all. It is no wonder that psychopaths are so rare.
> How would a lack of empathy be an advantage for any of this? Psychopathy is obviously an inferior strategy that only works as an extreme minority that only thrives in very niche situations.
> 
> It isn't enough to have sex. How are you going to compete against a man who picks a girl, pops 7 kids out of her and provides for all of them? His kin-oriented empathy is an advantage. You have to have multiple children, care for them, and not be destroyed by social retaliation against your behavior. These things are more difficult or less natural for psychopaths and thus they are at a disadvantage.


You're delving into game theory. Anyway, in the OP, I mention my belief in God. I am not devout, religious, pious, etc. I simply believe that God exists. With such, there is a reason psychopaths exist. If God doesn't exist, then why give one iota of a fuck about the concept of empathy? After all, how can love/empathy have deeper intrinsic meaning than the world it is a product of?

For example, if a movie shows a couple falling in love while protecting the "Ancient Sword of Eternal Power", the audience perceives the love as real while the sword is part of the plot. It doesn't matter if the sword can heal souls, in that movie, the audience doesn't perceive it as a real part of the world. Similarly, if love is a concept created by our world, then it has no real meaning. Across the world, people find meaning in empathy and love, because they believe to do so is define. Whether or not it is will be always up for debate. But if it isn't, then empathy is no more important to society than any other evolutionary benefit. Defending it's use is no more magnanimous that defending our abilities we have with thumbs.



> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right, but there won't be any kids. There are a few reasons for this. First, it screws over the woman so back in the good ol' days you either:
> 
> 1) Couldn't engineer this scenario in the first place. The only reason girls are promiscuous now is because they can prevent childbirth.
> 
> 2) Would get tracked down by their male relatives and either castrated or killed. If you don't think that is a real thing, you are mistaken. It is almost universal that a man would be retaliated against for such antisocial behavior, ESPECIALLY dealing with sex and DOUBLE ESPECIALLY if a child came of it. More than one with more than one girl? If they caught you you were in for a world of hurt.
> 
> Child support and alimony go back to the freaking Code of Hammurabi. One of the early stories in the bible is of a man raping a girl and her brothers massacred his entire tribe. The point is that there is intense incentive to prevent and retaliate against 'cuckoo' behavior. Trying to get other people to raise your kids. Those people who didn't put up with it and were able to prevent it and punish it were the ones that thrived, and so most people are strongly inclined this way now.
> 
> But, nowadays we are more civilized. Instead, if you have kids and leave you are taken to court and strapped with crushing child support bills. Apparently averaging $450 a month for one kid. They garner wages. They take tax returns. They are deadly serious about it.
> 
> It is a misconception that empathic people are pushovers. Actually, evolutionarily, they cannot be. Otherwise cheaters would overwhelm them strategically and the whole thing would collapse. No, it is Retaliators that perform best. Most people are strong social retaliators. They trust by default, and give you enough rope to hang yourself, but if you step out of bounds they pull out the torches and pitch forks... in our modern society, it is fines or jail time.
> 
> There is not and has never been such a thing as knocking up a few girls and walking away. At best you can knock up one girl and disappear forever. That is your best option. You will be hunted... then by family with violent intent... now by the courts with the intent to crush you financially. From all that you get 1 measly kid. High empathy Greg Flanders can have all he wants and doesn't have to go on the lam.
> 
> You think the system isn't built to handle you? Of course it is. If that weren't true, there'd be more psychopaths around.


You're just speculating. Also, psychopaths are not another species. Finally, if I, a psychopath, impregnate my cousin's wife, neither psychopaths, would he be able to tell that the child is not his?

You seem to perceive psychopath as a viral strain that can be contained. That is not what it is. In your last post you say this:



> Psychopathy is less viable as a strategy, which is abundantly proven by its rarity, but it is not so bad as to be truly wiped out. If homosexuality isn't wiped out, psychopathy certainly won't be.


At this point, all of mankind contains genes that can translate into psychopathy. Sociopaths are people who would be otherwise normal if not for trauma. The idea to place psychopathy in the Punnett square is obsolete.


----------



## daleks_exterminate

I'm autistic and don't understand people. 
Also adhd. 
And I run experiments on my friends....

do do I get to join the club?
whatever fuckers. I'm staying.


----------



## Parrot

daleks_exterminate said:


> I'm autistic and don't understand people.
> Also adhd.
> And I run experiments on my friends....
> 
> do do I get to join the club?
> whatever fuckers. I'm staying.


It's not like if we were to subtly make fake of you that you'd understand our intentions, so sure you can stay.


----------



## daleks_exterminate

Drunk Parrot said:


> It's not like if we were to subtly make fake of you that you'd understand our intentions, so sure you can stay.


Theres also the level of me legitimately not caring if I found out. So eh. 
Win/win. You seem fun.


----------



## Parrot

daleks_exterminate said:


> Theres also the level of me legitimately not caring if I found out. So eh.
> Win/win. You seem fun.


We've interacted many times on this site before. You already know I'm fun.


----------



## daleks_exterminate

Drunk Parrot said:


> We've interacted many times on this site before. You already know I'm fun.


What? I've seen you before? Must not have left that great of an impression. 







Hmmm


----------



## Old Intern

@Psychopomp makes several references to game theory? What I think is mistaken here is that just because you may not feel other people's feelings much, doesn't mean you aren't good at game theory. You can get a good understanding (cognitive empathy) of which buttons you can push or how far you can go with people, without much emotional empathy. If anything a sociopath is quite good at the cooperation/retaliation game. The main thing for a sociopath today would be if or how strong a problem they have with self control or impulsive actions. A person who is not overtly destructive can do a lot of covert manipulation and be "evil in plain sight and not be made - for quite a while". Maybe like Bernie Madoff?


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Old Intern said:


> @Psychopomp makes several references to game theory? What I think is mistaken here is that just because you may not feel other people's feelings much, doesn't mean you aren't good at game theory. You can get a good understanding (cognitive empathy) of which buttons you can push or how far you can go with people, without much emotional empathy. If anything a sociopath is quite good at the cooperation/retaliation game. The main thing for a sociopath today would be if or how strong a problem they have with self control or impulsive actions. A person who is not overtly destructive can do a lot of covert manipulation and be "evil in plain sight and not be made - for quite a while". Maybe like Bernie Madoff?


http://personalitycafe.com/debate-forum/656258-part-iii-psychopathy-empathy-77.html#post25721898


----------



## Old Intern

Occams Chainsaw said:


> http://personalitycafe.com/debate-forum/656258-part-iii-psychopathy-empathy-77.html#post25721898


I think you are assuming a certain combination of traits, maybe ones you were diagnosed with. But the definition of psychopath and what causes it is not exact; our knowledge of the brain and nurture and epigenetics is blurry at best. And people behave and test along a spectrum.

However, what you say might align with other things I've read about how a psychopath may only be able to imitate high performing behavior. The example, don't remember where I read it was that a psychopath can do well in a corporate structure because manipulation and imitation can be substituted where performance would be measured more accurately in other scenarios. ?


----------



## Old Intern

Even the definition of conscience seems to be a complicated and somewhat disputed term.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscience

If you scroll to Darwinian area - _A requirement of conscience, in this view, is the capacity to see ourselves from the point of view of another person. _How well do any of us do this, even if we think we do? And couldn't we do this without experiencing actual emotions? How many times do people imagine someone feeling the way they themselves would feel, not recognizing the other person doesn't care about the same things - and this comes from empaths?


----------



## daleks_exterminate

This thread actually reminded me that my old poli science professor (who I often went drinking with) gave me his copy of the Prince. He said it was his favorite book and I would love it. I need to get on reading that. So thanks for that ^_^


----------



## Old Intern

daleks_exterminate said:


> This thread actually reminded me that my old poli science professor (who I often went drinking with) gave me his copy of the Prince. He said it was his favorite book and I would love it. I need to get on reading that. So thanks for that ^_^


Yes, Machiavelli. It is interesting to note that the guy writing _The Prince_ never had real power himself (or not much for long) but was more of a victim of war and politics. Still, certain things are undeniably true. For example, it doesn't do any good to focus on how "people" or anybody "should" be. You don't get anywhere until you deal with people the way they actually are.

Does Machiavelli have too much self knowledge and awareness of other people to be considered sociopathic? Probably.


----------



## Parrot

I thought the Prince was a boring read. Of course that didn't stop myself from bragging that I was Machiavellian, when I went through a phase. It wasn't until years later that I recently realized why some people found that horrifying. They were probably thinking "Get this sick sociopath away from me".


----------



## Parrot

For our psychopathic thread of the month we have @School with http://personalitycafe.com/advice-center/787954-i-just-want-play-dead-animals.html

Of course she's not necessarily a psychopath as in her words on page 8:



> I don't really care what they call me, I've heard it all before anyway. Just a quick look at a list of symptoms for psychopathy should let them know that I simply can't be a psychopath, but for some reason people tend to ignore that.
> I don't think it's weird to be fascinated by such things, it's common to be fascinated by nature and life in general.


What fascination? Try this:



> Slicing up parts of a dead animals and squeezing the lungs with my hands... it was just right. We were supposed to be careful and all that, but after a while the rest of the group gave up and let me do whatever I wanted.
> 
> I have considered taxidermy, hunting and being a butcherer. They all require patience and being careful, following a few steps to achieve a goal - I don't want that. I just want to put on some gloves, pick up a scalpel and have fun.





> I am aware of the connection between animal torture and serial killers, but I don't think it applies because I'm not really talking about torturing animals. I'm talking about playing with animals that are already dead and would not continue to suffer. While I have obviously also thought about harming humans, even playing with their dead bodies, I know I'm never going to do that simply because it's against the laws. I don't particularly care about the societal rules, I only follow them when necessary. I think that the laws in my country are mostly good enough and I follow them to avoid trouble, but also because I believe most of them are reasonable and made to protect us from ourselves and others.


I cherry picked these quotes, from her thread. Anyway, School, the topic has been broached that you might be psychopathic. You prefer to discuss practical solutions to your need on your thread, so on this thread, can you share why you would not consider yourself to be a psychopath?


----------



## School

@Drunk Parrot
For example: I have a lot of empathy, I sometimes have remorse if I've done something wrong (though I rarely do anything wrong, so I don't really know), I follow the laws, I'm rarely angry, I'm very honest, I'm not too impulsive and I can be shy. Does this sound like a psychopath? No, not at all.


----------



## redneck15

drmiller100 said:


> reading the teen's posts with all the answers on how the world works..........


This is the internet. What do you expect?


----------



## Old Intern

URLteenth said:


> Oh, I think it's useful propaganda. And if it was being used that way here I wouldn't have mentioned it. But I saw people being called out, and I thought 'now that's just not right'. Being labeled by a self appointed professional bothered me, although I was arguably fair game in a typing thread, but this person apparently got picked out at random. That's just not right you know?


I have no idea what you are trying to say here.


----------



## Bunny

I knew this CEO once, he was a serial killer and he also played tennis.


----------



## redneck15

Old Intern said:


> I have no idea what you are trying to say here.


If you want to call yourself a psychopath, fine. Not really because it's an ego trip I think but oh well. But don't go calling others out as psychopaths.


----------



## Parrot

Old Intern said:


> I have no idea what you are trying to say here.


 @URLteenth is referring to me asking @School about this topic, by bringing her to this thread. I had mistakenly labeled him as a psychopath, 6 months ago, because I could detect a lack of affective empathy. I was wrong, of course, but at the time I was just trying to make sense of how it is defined. I did that on his own "Type me" thread. Contrast that with School's thread where assumely, she wasn't asking for a diagnosis. URL is asking for confirmation that what I did is not right, in an ethical sense.


----------



## redneck15

Wytch said:


> I knew this CEO once, he was a serial killer and he also played tennis.


I saw an episode of America's Most Wanted where there was this doctor who was gambling into the wee hours of the morning, and ultimately he became an important witness to a fight between a woman and man which mattered because the woman ended up dead and on the doctor's evidence the man was put away. In combination with other evidence; for example he was caught buying clean up stuff at a Home Depot on camera. And there were scratches on him. But they never found the body.


----------



## redneck15

Drunk Parrot said:


> @_URLteenth_ is referring to me asking @_School_ about this topic, by bringing her to this thread. I had mistakenly labeled him as a psychopath, 6 months ago, because I could detect a lack of affective empathy. I was wrong, of course, but at the time I was just trying to make sense of how it is defined. I did that on his own "Type me" thread. Contrast that with School's thread where assumely, she wasn't asking for a diagnosis. URL is asking for confirmation that what I did is not right, in an ethical sense.


Well when you put it that way . . . I guess I can't really say it's unethical exactly. Because who is to say what's ethical? But I do think there should be some conflicting voices on the other side of the argument, if you know what i mean. Because it could intimidate some people if they think that this is an authoritative kind of thing where everybody agrees and there isn't too much disagreement. You know what I mean? Vs. a regular conversation kind of thing where some people say 'that's very true' and someone else says 'that's total bullshit'. So I'm trying to create more diversity of opinions anyway. But yeah I take back anything I said that suggested you were doing something wrong, I don't think that holds water. You see my point though?


----------



## Parrot

URLteenth said:


> Well when you put it that way . . . I guess I can't really say it's unethical exactly. Because who is to say what's ethical? But I do think there should be some conflicting voices on the other side of the argument, if you know what i mean. Because it could intimidate some people if they think that this is an authoritative kind of thing where everybody agrees and there isn't too much disagreement. You know what I mean? Vs. a regular conversation kind of thing where some people say 'that's very true' and someone else says 'that's total bullshit'. So I'm trying to create more diversity of opinions anyway. But yeah I take back anything I said that suggested you were doing something wrong, I don't think that holds water. You see my point though?


Haha, not really. I just defended you and your post by clarifying what you've been trying to say. As a result, you seem to be backpedaling in your accusations. Yes, this thread, and all threads with this subject, need objective analysis with all viewpoints included. Those viewpoints can include that I'm just making everything up and someone else is just enabling me. I don't see how that viewpoint is right, either. Am I a sad, pitiful individual looking for attention online to escape from the crushing reality of how worthless my life is? You bet your ass I am haha.


----------



## redneck15

Drunk Parrot said:


> Haha, not really. I just defended you and your post by clarifying what you've been trying to say. As a result, you seem to be backpedaling in your accusations. Yes, this thread, and all threads with this subject, need objective analysis with all viewpoints included. Those viewpoints can include that I'm just making everything up and someone else is just enabling me. I don't see how that viewpoint is right, either. Am I a sad, pitiful individual looking for attention online to escape from the crushing reality of how worthless my life is? You bet your ass I am haha.


Well if your goal was to make me feel like shit you succeeded. But when you claim to have all these nefarious powers, you have to expect some people to be like 'hang on, we gotta snap the magic so no one gets hurt'. If you've ever seen the anime Shiki, it's a perfect stand-in for the plight of the psychopath (if they exist). 

That depresses me. I liked that anime, and I had to admit that the Shikis were basically right. It was an irreconciliable conflict. If your nature is to be a certain way, then you have a right to act that way. But by the same token, your prey has a right to stop you. And whoever wins, it's kind of tragic in a way.

But no one's life is worthless. So for that reason psychopathy can't be allowed to exist. It will harm you far more than it will help you. Take being gay. Having a separate category for gay and straight was very dangerous for gay people. But since it's about sex and you can't function really in denial about something so important, we had to fight to get gay people treated decently. But I don't think it's the same for psychopaths. It's not just about sex, it's about reptile vs mammal. You can empathize with a gay person pretty easily because sex is sex either way. But if you say 'no don't put yourself in my shoes, I see the world fundamentally differently' then you're actively disabling the only pathway to acceptance a minority has in the eyes of the majority. The ONLY way the minority gets acceptance is through the empathetic pathway. Same with slavery; the Southerners tried to pretend African Americans were animals because then that removes them from empathy, whereas the abolitionists emphasized the common humanity of us all. 

I think the whole Derrida 'me vs the other' movement in literature is about this as well. The first thing you do if you want to brutalize a group is to otherize them. So it's INSANELY twisted to create a group of humans that are inherently 'the other'. You're setting yourself and others up for persecution.

Oh my gosh this frustrates me so much. Don't you see what you're doing? Psychopaths CANNOT be allowed to exist, and anyone who wants to do them a favor will never mention the name again. The more you define them, and especially if you build them up, the more you'll get hostile responses because people respond to threats. Just look at some of the irrational hate you've gotten in this thread already.


----------



## Parrot

Being disallowed to exist does not prevent existence. Denying who I am denies any reason to learn. Willful ignorance is not how to improve the situation.

I never claimed to be a psychopath to be cool or hip. There are times where I wish I wasn't one. It doesn't matter what I wish, though. I created this thread and discuss the topic elsewhere, because denying it is more unhealthy than admitting it. When I said "intra-species" predator, I said that in quotes. Simply because I find that to be an unfair stereotype.


----------



## redneck15

@Drunk Parrot ; I suppose our difference is more philosophical then. We don't possibly have the time to pay attention to everything. So I prefer to look at the categories that are positive and hold out hope, and deemphasize the categories that do not. If you believe you're doomed, then you're doomed. Your language sets you up for exclusion and defeat because you don't even believe right is on your side. I know that right is on my side, and so anything that tells me I innately have the properties of something evil is incorrect. I can admit flaws and errors in my methods but fundamentally I'm a good person going in the right direction. This means I have hope. Life without hope is not life.


----------



## Bunny

URLteenth said:


> I saw an episode of America's Most Wanted where there was this doctor who was gambling into the wee hours of the morning, and ultimately he became an important witness to a fight between a woman and man which mattered because the woman ended up dead and on the doctor's evidence the man was put away. In combination with other evidence; for example he was caught buying clean up stuff at a Home Depot on camera. And there were scratches on him. But they never found the body.


K.


----------



## drmiller100

URLteenth said:


> Well if your goal was to make me feel like shit you succeeded. B


Maybe.............

he doesn't really give a shit how you feel. I know I don't.


----------



## Parrot

drmiller100 said:


> Maybe.............
> 
> he doesn't really give a shit how you feel. I know I don't.


Haha. I never wanted to make him feel bad or good. The thought never crossed my mind.


----------



## drmiller100

Drunk Parrot said:


> Haha. I never wanted to make him feel bad or good. The thought never crossed my mind.


you are an uncaring bastard.


----------



## Parrot

*Why a Psychopath can never be in Love*

I'm listening to cheesy love songs right now. I like them, but I don't find them overly moving. They're just enjoyable to listen to every once in a while. One of the most difficult things to accept, by identifying myself as a psychopath, is knowing that I'll never be in love. It sucks because love is such a key part of our culture. The rush and experience of falling in love, maintaining it, and the image of dying together, like at the end of the Notebook. But as a psychopath, I will never be ever to experience that. 

Well, I can experience the rush of falling in love, temporarily. It wouldn't last though. That feeling I have towards someone will get lost and I'll forget that I even felt that way. I'll begin to see imperfections and become critical of the person. That's why many psychopaths, in relationships, just control the person just so they can experience some benefit to the relationship. But the feeling gets lost. It doesn't mean it was never there. It had to be there. The problem is that a psychopath won't remember it and can't regenerate it.

"I want you, I need you, but there ain't no way I'm ever going to love you". One of my favorite songs "Two out of three ain't bad". It's true in a psychopath's case. The websites dedicated to recovering from psychopathic relationships point to this. The crushing reality for these former partners is recognizing that the psychopath in their life doesn't love them. They might occasionally have affection for them, but overall, they don't love them. For a psychopath, losing their partner sucks like finding out their T.V. was stolen. Psychopaths, like any other person, don't want to lose a possession. After that fleeting feeling dissipates, a psychopath views their love interest as a prize to be won and then maintained. Of course, most people don't want to be viewed as property, even if they're treated well. Thus, a conflict of interest and perception exists.

If I were to love, I would need to segment the typical needs provided by love. I'd want a business partner to live with and multiple sexual partners around the world (or at least an "ideal" one). I can feel, right now, that I could be wholeheartedly devoted to one person, but I know it'll never last. It doesn't matter if that sucks or not, it's a reality. And as our previous conversation about psychopaths and breeding points out, most of history never worried about if a couple was in love.


----------



## Old Intern

What do you think about people suggesting you (or someone else) have trust issues?

When this has been said, I wonder If I know what they mean. I think I'm pretty good at boundary setting. I think most of the time I'm open to other people? Well, I'm not open in the sense that I don't automatically respect people or an opinion, just because it might be popular or have backing from "authority".

Is this an automatic disrespect of others, or just a trust in your own mind to be able to get to the bottom of things? What about lack of fear? Maybe lots of people just have way tooooo much fear and insecurity? Or maybe I associate with fearful people because I am comfortable with being in charge?

I'm still wondering if I am emotionally shallow or not. Maybe I am. Maybe that is why relationships of all kinds are somewhat unsatisfying to me. Even as a kid, I definitely remember neighbor girls getting into a big stink and division over unbelievably trivial stuff, and I would walk away because it seemed like pointless noise.

I don't know if this could be sorta like a brain chip missing. But . . . . . path? I don't think so, I just don't know what it is, something I don't quite "get" about what good relationships are supposed to be. I don't connect. ? I might not even be thinking about this but for a work-life shift that seems like you *have* to do social media and be a personality.

I wondered about this with Donald Trump, I mean some of this is a perceiver (extroverted) thing? I thought of how he chose to do a press conference style "acceptance speech" - every time instead of a speech. I could see being that same way because I have to be responding to something to come alive? Kinda like not having "material" of my own. Not sure what this is. I have my own mind when there are choices to make or fires to put out.

I may not quite get it when people talk about "being" or trusting. I don't think people are out to do harm to me - unless there is some reason for it. But I don't understand the big whoopie-do people make when they talk about "trusting" relationships where it doesn't seem to me there are any practical consequences in the first place?


----------



## Parrot

Old Intern said:


> What do you think about people suggesting you (or someone else) have trust issues?


I'm actually pretty trusting as the emotion of being fearful of their intentions never crosses my mind. I can't stand the idea that my behavior is a result of deep-seeded issues. I've lived a charmed life and have no reason to be different from my peers.



> When this has been said, I wonder If I know what they mean. I think I'm pretty good at boundary setting. I think most of the time I'm open to other people? Well, I'm not open in the sense that I don't automatically respect people or an opinion, just because it might be popular or have backing from "authority".
> 
> Is this an automatic disrespect of others, or just a trust in your own mind to be able to get to the bottom of things? What about lack of fear? Maybe lots of people just have way tooooo much fear and insecurity? Or maybe I associate with fearful people because I am comfortable with being in charge?
> 
> I'm still wondering if I am emotionally shallow or not. Maybe I am. Maybe that is why relationships of all kinds are somewhat unsatisfying to me. Even as a kid, I definitely remember neighbor girls getting into a big stink and division over unbelievably trivial stuff, and I would walk away because it seemed like pointless noise.
> 
> I don't know if this could be sorta like a brain chip missing. But . . . . . path? I don't think so, I just don't know what it is, something I don't quite "get" about what good relationships are supposed to be. I don't connect. ? I might not even be thinking about this but for a work-life shift that seems like you *have* to do social media and be a personality.


Missing brain chip...I like that. Something has to have happened to be that way



> I wondered about this with Donald Trump, I mean some of this is an perceiver (extroverted) thing? I thought of how he chose to do a press conference style "acceptance speech" - every time instead of a speech. I could see being that same way because I have to be responding to something to come alive? Kinda like not having "material" of my own. Not sure what this is. I have my own mind when there are choices to make or fires to put out.


I'm still on the fence on whether or not he's a psychopath or just a regular narcissist.


----------



## Parrot

@Old Intern I have a question about emotions for you. If I ever want to experience emotions, I find that it's easy to experience the enthusiastic ones, in regards to 7w8. But if I ever experience anything sad, I need something really heavy. It's like emotional *hot sauce.* I can listen to songs or watch videos that would cause someone to be bawling. For me, they just might generate some emotion. For example, I just started playing "Don't Take the Girl" - Tim McGraw. That song would cause most people to break down, but just makes me a little sad.

Btw, for those wondering why a psychopath would think about this, know that even serial killers gotta find ways to pass the time in between their monthly fun times.


----------



## Old Intern

*@*Drunk Parrot I'm not sure he (Trump) is either or any of that. I think dominant Se and Ne thinkers might come across that way? So I'm wondering about that, about myself. Like where is the line? There have been more than a few threads about ENTP's being referred to as uncaring.

And my guess it that the trust thing comes from desperate feelers who live their lives saying "oooohhhhh pleeeeeaaaseeee tell me i'm okay, tell me I'm good enough, tell me I'm normal pleeeeaassee pleeeaaase push yourself in my face and prop me up with approval, constantly" - over dumb stuff. ?

I don't have confessions like most "girls" seem to get into. But maybe this is not me without conscience, just I look like the women who are overly people pleaser types?


----------



## Bunny

Drunk Parrot said:


> Um, that isn't the narc supply that I was looking for. Thanks for nothing.
> @Wytch, some people just don't know how to flatter.


I think he's just shy :kitteh: he is intimidated by you.


----------



## Parrot

Wytch said:


> I think he's just shy :kitteh: he is intimidated by you.


 @URLteenth I'm actually pretty cuddly. Kind of like how a mouth drooler squeezes a bunny.


----------



## Bunny

Maybe @URLteenth should try imagine DP as a bunny.









He's eating popcorn 

That's not scary.


----------



## drmiller100

every time I see "DP" it takes me 3 reclutches to figure out DrunkParrot...... 

DP as a bunny is non sequiter in either case.


----------



## Parrot

drmiller100 said:


> every time I see "DP" it takes me 3 reclutches to figure out DrunkParrot......
> 
> DP as a bunny is non sequiter in either case.


You doing a DP with a bunny is just business as usual for you.

Great, I'm derailing my thread.


----------



## Bunny

drmiller100 said:


> every time I see "DP" it takes me 3 reclutches to figure out DrunkParrot......
> 
> DP as a bunny is non sequiter in either case.


I like using DP :shrugs: and I'm an SP = lazy.
I found it quite funny personally :tongue:

He's eating _popcorn_, I mean come on.


----------



## Bunny

Drunk Parrot said:


> You doing a DP with a bunny is just business as usual for you.
> 
> Great, I'm derailing my thread.


XD maybe he just wanted to be the bunny.

and I would think you'd be fond of the double entendre that is DP.


----------



## drmiller100

Drunk Parrot said:


> You doing a DP with a bunny is just business as usual for you.
> 
> Great, I'm derailing my thread.


I've never fucked a bunny. Ex bud girl? sure. ex hooker? yup. dancer? sure. someone studying to be a priest? Yup, but to be fair, she gave up her calling.

No bunnies, and certainly never a dp on a bunny.


----------



## Parrot

drmiller100 said:


> I've never fucked a bunny. Ex bud girl? sure. ex hooker? yup. dancer? sure. someone studying to be a priest? Yup, but to be fair, she gave up her calling.
> 
> No bunnies, and certainly never a dp on a bunny.


You're such an amateur hack. You AND the bunny are Double penetrating a girl, together. Jesus, what's with you and your animal fetish?


----------



## Bunny

Haha, I am having some hilarious thoughts right now.

A bunny DP sounds kinda hot.


----------



## Inveniet

@Drunk Parrot
You have made an interesting set of threads about this topic.
To me psychopaty is a culturally constructed stereotype.
It is what people use then someone has the ability to break the normative web without effort.
I've met a few of the people you would coin as psychopaths myself.
I find the term lacking the precision I prefer so I don't really use it.
Jungian psychology is much more useful, all the word psychopath seems to be about it stigma and control.

You seem to have developed quite a strong identity around this, with a strongly assimilated scheme in place.
Does it work for you?
Or are these threads an attempt to figure a way out of the rational hole you have dug for yourself?


----------



## Parrot

Saw you lurking the past hour haha



hornet said:


> @Drunk Parrot
> You have made an interesting set of threads about this topic.
> To me psychopaty is a culturally constructed stereotype.
> It is what people use then someone has the ability to break the normative web without effort.
> I've met a few of the people you would coin as psychopaths myself.
> I find the term lacking the precision I prefer so I don't really use it.
> Jungian psychology is much more useful, all the word psychopath seems to be about it stigma and control.


I completely agree that the current understanding of psychopathy is very confined and 2 dimensional. The idea seems to be placing someone into a confined box that acts out predestined algorithms of behavior. That is not how people work, so part of this thread is to introduce the concept that actual people are psychopaths and we are sentient, like every other person. Occam reflects a more clinical understanding of the term, I provide a good example of the sub-clinical, drmiller100 is...something, old intern has some traits. The point is that there's no clear way to define the term so part of the thread's purpose is developing informed clarity. I would only trust a small fraction of psychologists to actually be able to comprehend the diverse nature of the term. What can be asserted, is if .8-1% of the population is psychopaths, as Dr Hare believes, then there's certainly going to be some diversity in how traits manifest.



> You seem to have developed quite a strong identity around this, with a strongly assimilated scheme in place.
> Does it work for you?
> Or are these threads an attempt to figure a way out of the rational hole you have dug for yourself?


If you're thinking that I limit myself to a single direction, based on my self-diagnosis, that is not the case. I can acknowledge reality while also recognizing that the understanding of that reality does not confine a person to a singular character arc.


----------



## Inveniet

Drunk Parrot said:


> Saw you lurking the past hour haha


Yes it took a while, I still only got a partial take of what you where about.



> I completely agree that the current understanding of psychopathy is very confined and 2 dimensional. The idea seems to be placing someone into a confined box that acts out predestined algorithms of behavior. That is not how people work, so part of this thread is to introduce the concept that actual people are psychopaths and we are sentient, like every other person. Occam reflects a more clinical understanding of the term, I provide a good example of the sub-clinical, drmiller100 is...something, old intern has some traits. The point is that there's no clear way to define the term so part of the thread's purpose is developing informed clarity. I would only trust a small fraction of psychologists to actually be able to comprehend the diverse nature of the term. What can be asserted, is if .8-1% of the population is psychopaths, as Dr Hare believes, then there's certainly going to be some diversity in how traits manifest.


Yes, very confined and it always will be confined until someone makes a new label without collective baggage.
Maybe "Juvenile callous syndrome" (juvenile means that it starts before the age of 16)
You change the wording and all the negativity and fear evaporate.
In a Jungian sense that is because Fe has a certain stickyness to it, it glues itself onto words.
That is why idealist tend to cycle through disability terms every decade or so,
cause after 10 years of being associated with having an impairment 
the negativity of the impairment sticks on collective conciousness.
Hence the only way to not stigmatize the handicaped is to invent a new term for them.
It is sort of like having to change dipers every now and them, the shit keeps on coming.
Same with the word psychopath, it is better to just throw the whole thing away,
every other approch is going to be a messy filthy affair.



> If you're thinking that I limit myself to a single direction, based on my self-diagnosis, that is not the case. I can acknowledge reality while also recognizing that the understanding of that reality does not confine a person to a singular character arc.


I see, then I misunderstood you.


----------



## Parrot

hornet said:


> Yes, very confined and it always will be confined until someone makes a new label without collective baggage.
> Maybe "Juvenile callous syndrome" (juvenile means that it starts before the age of 16)
> You change the wording and all the negativity and fear evaporate.
> In a Jungian sense that is because Fe has a certain stickyness to it, it glues itself onto words.
> That is why idealist tend to cycle through disability terms every decade or so,
> cause after 10 years of being associated with having an impairment
> the negativity of the impairment sticks on collective conciousness.
> Hence the only way to not stigmatize the handicaped is to invent a new term for them.
> It is sort of like having to change dipers every now and them, the shit keeps on coming.
> Same with the word psychopath, it is better to just throw the whole thing away,
> every other approch is going to be a messy filthy affair.


In the conventional sense, it would make sense to change the term. But the funny thing about psychopaths is we don't always want to do what's rational. I don't give a rats ass about public perception. I wear a mask, anyway, so it's not like I'm worried what people think of me. As far as they know, I'm a bit of an asshole, but a decent guy. Which is true, because actions speak louder than diagnoses. Anyway, I prefer the term psychopath because it's both accurate and provocative. Unlike the mentally retarded, psychopaths aren't offended by being referred to as psychopaths...well publicly it might be a big deal if it ruins a career, but it's not like it hurts feelings. No other term will do as it cheapens the reality of the good, bad, and terrifying of what it means to deal with/be a psychopath.


----------



## Inveniet

Drunk Parrot said:


> In the conventional sense, it would make sense to change the term. But the funny thing about psychopaths is we don't always want to do what's rational.


Do you mean to say that you don't want an objective result?
How does this align with your awareness agenda?
To me, what you are saying is that you prefer to wash the dipers by hand.



> I don't give a rats ass about public perception. I wear a mask, anyway, so it's not like I'm worried what people think of me. As far as they know, I'm a bit of an asshole, but a decent guy. Which is true, because actions speak louder than diagnoses. Anyway, I prefer the term psychopath because it's both accurate and provocative. Unlike the mentally retarded, psychopaths aren't offended by being referred to as psychopaths...well publicly it might be a big deal if it ruins a career, but it's not like it hurts feelings. No other term will do as it cheapens the reality of the good, bad, and terrifying of what it means to deal with/be a psychopath.


To take the diaper methaphor further, now you are saying that you prefer them to be dirty.
You like the burning feeling of the shit on your red swollen butt.
Whatever makes you happy.

To clarify my position it is pretty clear to me that this is partly about devaluing certain other perspectives in a Jungian sense.
Hence to other types you embracing what is viewed as negative is seen as disturbing.
Just as disturbing as someone who kept walking around in a messed up diaper.

To me this is just a manifestation of shadow repression.
You hate the Fi (empathy) in yourself and hence embrace the most unempathic icon you can find.
No wonder you hate Fi as it is your PoLR.
Still running from your shadow won't make it go away.
No one is telling you to lie down on the ground and cuddle with it either.
But all that running does seem a bit tiring.


----------



## Parrot

hornet said:


> Do you mean to say that you don't want an objective result?
> How does this align with your awareness agenda?
> To me, what you are saying is that you prefer to wash the dipers by hand.
> 
> 
> 
> To take the diaper methaphor further, now you are saying that you prefer them to be dirty.
> You like the burning feeling of the shit on your red swollen butt.
> Whatever makes you happy.
> 
> To clarify my position it is pretty clear to me that this is partly about devaluing certain other perspectives in a Jungian sense.
> Hence to other types you embracing what is viewed as negative is seen as disturbing.
> Just as disturbing as someone who kept walking around in a messed up diaper.
> 
> To me this is just a manifestation of shadow repression.
> You hate the Fi (empathy) in yourself and hence embrace the most unempathic icon you can find.
> No wonder you hate Fi as it is your PoLR.
> Still running from your shadow won't make it go away.
> No one is telling you to lie down on the ground and cuddle with it either.
> But all that running does seem a bit tiring.


I'm really not sure what you just told me. Was that advice? Or perhaps a scathing review? Do you have hopes of being a psychologist someday? Haha, you won't strike a heart of gold deep down. Thanks for trying, though.


----------



## Inveniet

Drunk Parrot said:


> I'm really not sure what you just told me. Was that advice? Or perhaps a scathing review? Do you have hopes of being a psychologist someday? Haha, you won't strike a heart of gold deep down. Thanks for trying, though.


A heart of gold?
I never expected that you to have much Au in your physical body nor in your psychology.

What I'm doing is challenging you scheme of the world.
As it is a tightly assimilated structure, I didn't expect it to be much impacted by a different assimilated scheme.
Namely my scheme.
However the echo of the impact did impart a very significant telltale sign of the internal structure of your scheme.
Much like a radar signal bouncing off something.

In psychology I would be termed a dilettant, cause after all I have no person with a reputable title to vouch for my knowledge.

I find it funny that your interpretation of my motives seem to be that I want to help you as an individual.
There is no such motive, you are more like a case study.
A specimen of an interesting subject area that I can analyze to later deal with other similar cases.
Since there are thousands upon thousands of psychopaths I don't see the value of helping anyone psychopath in particular.
As I am a type with a far reaching vision, I will only be content if I can cure psychopathy in general.
I would only do that if society would give me significant reward in terms of money.
This is but a very curious step to see if you guys are even worth my time.


----------



## Parrot

hornet said:


> A heart of gold?
> I never expected that you to have much Au in your physical body nor in your psychology.
> 
> What I'm doing is challenging you scheme of the world.
> As it is a tightly assimilated structure, I didn't expect it to be much impacted by a different assimilated scheme.
> Namely my scheme.
> However the echo of the impact did impart a very significant telltale sign of the internal structure of your scheme.
> Much like a radar signal bouncing off something.
> 
> In psychology I would be termed a dilettant, cause after all I have no person with a reputable title to vouch for my knowledge.
> 
> I find it funny that your interpretation of my motives seem to be that I want to help you as an individual.
> There is no such motive, you are more like a case study.
> A specimen of an interesting subject area that I can analyze to later deal with other similar cases.
> As I am a type with a far reaching vision, I will only be content if I can cure psychopathy in general.
> I would only do that if society would give me significant reward in terms of money.
> This is but a very curious step to see if you guys are even worth my time.


Well when you put it forth as assets and liabilities, then you're talking my language. Although you have such a weird typing style. Like an INTJ/Weird Euro hybrid? As far as your amateur status, I'm not knocking it. I've been a clinical psychologist for 14 years, according to credentials I made up. Wouldn't give a shit if someone told me that I lack proper credentials, wouldn't do the same to you. I would just criticize what you're actually saying. How the hell am I hiding? Since you're curious as if I'm a test subject, I'm remarkably more ok with that. Like I said, assets and liabilities, don't want a kumbaya lesson.

-As far as a cure, we've discussed this on the thread. Not sure I'd, nor others, want a neurological cure. Behavioral therapy is much more practical.



> Since there are thousands upon thousands of psychopaths I don't see the value of helping anyone psychopath in particular.


This line, in particular, is such a psychopathic thing to say, you sick fuck. :laughing:

Haha, as you can see from my signature, I know I'm not a unique snowflake. I'm special, though, just thousands of other dipshits.


----------



## Inveniet

Drunk Parrot said:


> Well when you put it forth as assets and liabilities, then you're talking my language.


Yeah I figured as much, my hypothesis was that either you react like this, or you would be a pretence who would get insulted.



> Although you have such a weird typing style. Like an INTJ/Weird Euro hybrid?


Hmm, I enter words into my keyboard and hit post reply.
How it is weird or how it is somehow connected to europe evades me.



> As far as your amateur status, I'm not knocking it. I've been a clinical psychologist for 14 years, according to credentials I made up. Wouldn't give a shit if someone told me that I lack proper credentials, wouldn't do the same to you. I would just criticize what you're actually saying.


Yes, NTPs seem to be bent on critique.



> How the hell am I hiding?


I'm unsure what you are asking me here, could you elaborate?



> Since you're curious as if I'm a test subject, I'm remarkably more ok with that. Like I said, assets and liabilities, don't want a kumbaya lesson.


Kumbaya lesson.
Hehe kumbayalesson and earlier heart of gold.
Your patterns of resistance is interesting.



> -As far as a cure, we've discussed this on the thread. Not sure I'd, nor others, want a neurological cure. Behavioral therapy is much more practical.


Well as I've pointed out earlier I hold the POV that this is a purely cultural construct, 
any manifestation of it must then be purely psychologic.
An organic cause was never entertained.


> This line, in particular, is such a psychopathic thing to say, you sick fuck. :laughing:


I see.
This further confirms how shallow the whole thing is.
From a Jungian standpoint all I'm doing here is devaluing certain perspectives and valuing other perspectives.
Psychopathy is then just a definitional powerplay from people who are afraid of my perspective.
They fear the power potential of raw unrestrained intuitive thinking and hence move to stigmatize it.
After all we all know that Fe-Si, Fi-Se, Fi-Ne or Fe-Ni isn't nice.
Feeling with intuition is willing to tear the world apart for their visions and ideals.
Feeling wih sensation is willing to throw everything away for a moment of extacy.
Anyone who has delved deep enough into Jung know that human society is just *a war of perspectives.*



> Haha, as you can see from my signature, I know I'm not a unique snowflake. I'm special, though, just thousands of other dipshits.


No one is born special.
You make yourself as special as you want to be, trough your actions.
If you become too special, other people might take action to stop your movment in your special direction.
Hence one of the greatest skill someone with special ambitions can have is diplomacy.
Diplomacy is basically making other people feel good about you getting your way.


----------



## Parrot

@hornet now I see the fissure of our mindset. I didn't understand your intent in our conversation, as I assumed you were familiar with the clinical understanding. However, it seems you're convinced psychopathy is all in someone's head, as explained through Jungian psychology, and not neurological based. As I've already explained to our URL friend, psychopathy is neurological based with actual brain deficiencies that cannot be cured by simply "trying harder". If you think it's a head thing, then you would never find a cure, much less understand what it is. 

Quick run down of other points:


> Hmm, I enter words into my keyboard and hit post reply.
> How it is weird or how it is somehow connected to europe evades me.


You have a weird typing style. Or maybe it's distinct. Calling it Euro is just me making fun of you.



> I'm unsure what you are asking me here, could you elaborate?


In regards to the hiding, I was perceiving that you were making that comparison. If you need me to elaborate...no.



> I see.
> This further confirms how shallow the whole thing is.
> From a Jungian standpoint all I'm doing here is devaluing certain perspectives and valuing other perspectives.


I'm making jokes. You're making shit up.


----------



## Parrot

URLteenth said:


> @Drunk Parrot : Okay that answers my objections. I basically misunderstood you. The jury is out on whether neurological psychopaths exist, scientifically speaking, but at least in theory it works to make sense of what you guys are talking about. Tbh, I would rather pretend it doesn't exist even if it does because it makes me uncomfortable, and I think that's the main reason I was arguing against it. It's like discussing gender differences in ability; yeah maybe it is true in this area or that, but do we need to talk about it? I feel like erasing differences should be the emphasis so we all get along better. Or worse are racial differences; there is NOT good evidence for that, but if there was we know how people have used it in the past.


When I said most psychologists disagree with you, I was referring to the understanding that it's biological. To what extent the neurology influences behavior is up for debate, but the shallow effect, thrill seeking, cockiness is guaranteed. (High testerone is another biological trait associated with psychopathy).

As far as whether you want it to exist, let's discuss that ethically. If you believe in God or a higher power, then psychopathy exists for a reason. If no such power exists, who gives a shit, as your view of ethics/morals isn't even real. Psychopaths can put forward the same argument as homosexuals saying it doesn't matter if you think we exist or not, we do, get over it. After all, it's not like we affect your life...which is where the argument breaks down as psychopaths probably affect more people than homosexuals haha.

One last thing, most psychopaths aren't going to know they're a psychopath. They might know they're different, but probably just assume it's because they're more gifted/advanced then their peers. I do not represent the typical viewpoint of a psychopath as my self-awareness is much more advanced than most people's.


----------



## redneck15

Drunk Parrot said:


> When I said most psychologists disagree with you, I was referring to the understanding that it's biological. To what extent the neurology influences behavior is up for debate, but the shallow effect, thrill seeking, cockiness is guaranteed. (High testerone is another biological trait associated with psychopathy).
> 
> As far as whether you want it to exist, let's discuss that ethically. If you believe in God or a higher power, then psychopathy exists for a reason. If no such power exists, who gives a shit, as your view of ethics/morals isn't even real. Psychopaths can put forward the same argument as homosexuals saying it doesn't matter if you think we exist or not, we do, get over it. After all, it's not like we affect your life...which is where the argument breaks down as psychopaths probably affect more people than homosexuals haha.
> 
> One last thing, most psychopaths aren't going to know they're a psychopath. They might know they're different, but probably just assume it's because they're more gifted/advanced then their peers. I do not represent the typical viewpoint of a psychopath as my self-awareness is much more advanced than most people's.


Awww, you've won me back over with that display of reasonableness. I feel like you win this exchange frankly. How's that for narc supply! Now until I fall into another fit of righteous rage at psychopaths, I will exit your thread *bows out* *calls for a round of applause for DP from behind the curtain*


----------



## Parrot

> I feel like* you win* this exchange frankly. How's that for narc supply! Now until I fall into another fit of righteous rage at psychopaths, I will exit your thread *bows out* *calls for a round of applause for DP from behind the curtain*


----------



## Parrot

*Rock, Paper, Scissors between Psychopaths, Narcissists, and the Moral Mob.*

This goes both ways, where each group can trump the other.

In Public
*-Psychopaths ---> Narcissists* Psychopaths are immune to narcissists' manipulation tactics. As a regular person, psychopaths can convince others to resist manipulation.
*-Narcissists ---> Moral Mob* Narcissists manipulate the moral mob and often lead them. People are drawn to cults of personality and provide legitimacy to their plans.
*-Moral Mob ---> Psychopaths* The Moral Mob will destroy the life of anyone they deem immoral. If outed as a psychopath, the mob will ruin their career and/or ensure longer jail sentences.

Covertly
*-Narcissists ---> Psychopaths* For regular people, in general, narcissists might obsessively plot to destroy someone's life. Psychopaths can do the same but the impulse for narcissists is much stronger.
*-Moral Mob ---> Narcissists* Public opinion influences decisions and narcissists are held captive by what the public wants. They can try to manipulate, but some causes are greater than narcissists' influences.
*-Psychopaths ---> Moral Mob* Psychopaths are excellent at wearing a mask, as being undetected is essential to life. The mob cannot destroy someone if their behavior does not reveal their internal process.


I'm playing a video game, which inspired me, so I posted this for shits and giggles.


----------



## piano

Borderline Personality Disorder as a Female Phenotypic Expression of Psychopathy?


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

That article is very poorly peer reviewed.

An interesting probable BPD/Psycho:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Travis_Alexander
reference for facts of murder

watch her. (4m6s onwards particularly).








whoopsies. very sloppy.


----------



## piano

jxsilicon95 days ago
She looks pissed. That reporter would be a dead man if he was alone with her and a weapon.﻿

i agree... the second interview was a lot better. she's going to lie no matter what (though i think there may be an element of truth to some of what she's said in regard to what their relationship was like behind the scenes) but if you want to catch her in a lie, you can't be asking leading or (somewhat) close-ended questions like "bringing up x and x is trivial, don't you think?" or "oh, why'd you dye your hair?" because 1. it makes you look like a spiteful fool and thus results in you losing credibility as a journalist and 2. it doesn't take a genius to fabricate answers to such simple, mindless questions.

the second interviewer asked her open-minded questions that were actually relevant to the case... and directly referenced past cases, as well as past lies she's been caught in. they caught jodi off guard and, as a result, there were lengthy pauses in the space between the interviewer's questions and jodi's answers. the interviewer had an idea in mind of which direction she wanted the interview to go but instead of just firing them off, one by one, like the first interviewer, she went with the flow and readjusted her questions to fit the new (mis)information jodi fed her. she prodded but it was calm and actually kinda sneaky, _not_ (unnecessarily) accusatory and aggressive. i just skimmed both interviews so i'm probably way off base here but whateva.

i found this gem on the INTJf though...

"Also, to add, jealously is completely normal. Even murder out of jealously is also normal, though extreme. *If he was really using her for sex and made it seem like there was a future between them*, then he deserved what he got. I mean, they were fucking right up until the minutes he died. What did he expect? Sex is expensive. Pay with your life or pay with your life."

i thought he was being sarcastic at first and hey you know maybe he was but a lot of this information actually checks out. he admitted to his friends that the relationship wasn't serious ("we didn't see much of a future in it and i don't believe he did either") and in this youtube clip, as well as others, it's heavily implied that he was probably just using her for sex.






"she slashed his tires. she sent herself texts from his phone telling her how beautiful she is... that he still loved her..."

"he prophesized his death by her by saying that 'if you don't find me or if i don't show up to dinner, you might find me dead someplace.'"

so she stalked and harassed him (refer to quote 1) and on top of that, he predicted that she was going to kill him (refer to quote 2) but when she shows up at his door _in the middle of the night_, what does he do?

A. he calls the cops
B. he kicks her out
C. he takes nude photos of her, lets her take nude photos of him, has sex with her

he had it coming but man, what a way to go out. laid before he was laid to rest. also, i found their nudes.


----------



## Parrot

Occams Chainsaw said:


> That article is very poorly peer reviewed.
> 
> An interesting probable BPD/Psycho:
> 
> whoopsies. very sloppy.


I agree on the combo. That's why in my biological vs environmental thread, I said a psychopath/narcissist can also be anti-social, borderline, histrionic. They aren't mutually exclusive. She definitely had a mix of something as well as a bangin' body


----------



## Parrot

carpe omnia said:


> Borderline Personality Disorder as a Female Phenotypic Expression of Psychopathy?


I can see it. I consider psychopaths to be only thinker types, in terms of Jungian typology. Still, Feelers might have similar neurology, but it wouldn't be psychopathic. Narcissist or Borderline is how I'd sum it up.


----------



## piano

Drunk Parrot said:


> I can see it. I consider psychopaths to be only thinker types, in terms of Jungian typology. Still, Feelers might have similar neurology, but it wouldn't be psychopathic. Narcissist or Borderline is how I'd sum it up.


any cognitive functions in particular you'd associate with psychopathy? because i could potentially see an INFJ being psychopathic, especially after reading the IEI female socionics portrait.


----------



## Parrot

carpe omnia said:


> any cognitive functions in particular you'd associate with psychopathy? because i could potentially see an INFJ being psychopathic, especially after reading the IEI female socionics portrait.


I just think a feeler would have certain ethical perceptions that make them less morally bankrupt and more morally skewed/self-absorbed. Hence narcissist or borderline. As far as cognitive traits, I would say ESTP represents the most common type to be a psychopath, with ENTP & ENTJ, next, then ISTP, INTP, , and INTJ coming in. ESTJ and ISTJ is also possible. Even then, it'd only be like 2% of ESTPs are psychopaths and perhaps .5% of ISTJs. This is just speculation, as I have no way to prove this. 

I would think the xxTJs are more likely to be pure narcissist. xxTP provides the best combination of functions with judgment and perception. There's several factors that make a psychopath based on neurology. Again, as far as clinical proof, very little has been observed about the common psychopath, in a clinical setting. Most clinical studies are done on the criminals, which do not make up the majority of psychopaths.


----------



## Parrot

*Scene from Mad Men*

The main character, Don Draper, represents an accurate portrayal of a sociopath in everyday life (Not convinced he's a psychopath). He (show's writers) made some remarks that I think sum up the shallow effect that is common with both psychopaths and sociopaths. In Season 6 Episode 4, MLK is shot and people deal with the aftermath. Don's wife confronts him and tells him he doesn't express his feelings to his kids. Says he bottles up feelings with alcohol. She says "Is this what you really want to be to them, when they need you?" 

_He replies: "No...I don't think I ever wanted to be the man who loves children. But from the moment they're born, that baby comes out, and you act proud and excited; hand out cigars. But you don't feel anything...especially if you had a difficult childhood. You want to love them but you...don't. And the fact that you're...faking that feeling...makes you wonder if your own father had the same problem. *sigh* And one day they get older... and you see them do something...and you feel....that feeling....you were pretending to have....and it feels like your heart is going to explode."_

The one thing I'd add to that is after you feel that feeling, it goes away and you might never feel it again.


----------



## Old Intern

Drunk Parrot said:


> *Scene from Mad Men*
> 
> The main character, Don Draper, represents an accurate portrayal of a sociopath in everyday life (Not convinced he's a psychopath). He (show's writers) made some remarks that I think sum up the shallow effect that is common with both psychopaths and sociopaths. In Season 6 Episode 4, MLK is shot and people deal with the aftermath. Don's wife confronts him and tells him he doesn't express his feelings to his kids. Says he bottles up feelings with alcohol. She says "Is this what you really want to be to them, when they need you?"
> 
> _He replies: "No...I don't think I ever wanted to be the man who loves children. But from the moment they're born, that baby comes out, and you act proud and excited; hand out cigars. But you don't feel anything...especially if you had a difficult childhood. You want to love them but you...don't. And the fact that you're...faking that feeling...makes you wonder if your own father had the same problem. *sigh* And one day they get older... and you see them do something...and you feel....that feeling....you were pretending to have....and it feels like your heart is going to explode."_
> 
> The one thing I'd add to that is after you feel that feeling, it goes away and you might never feel it again.


I love don Draper. I don't mean a crush, I mean I sort of identified with him, or wanted to. Everybody's got a theory for the "deeper meanings" of the show. But I've heard people describe him as repressed. I think Repressed makes sense for a diagnosis of him because it explains how he is tightly controlled in spots but then bungles through something of a mess he knows he got himself into. Repression also fits with the end show where he decides to join a meditation/ support group thing where he is "finding himself".

As far as the episode you mention, I have heard other men say that at first a baby is this thing that screams and poops and they don't automatically want to be involved (or they don't feel anything) until some point latter where a baby or child, seems to interact more.

If I was repressed like Don, maybe that would mean I have something to fix and life would be better, but I don't think that quite fits my case. Could be that I'm just depressed or stuck, but work used to be my high and my low, and everything else is/was kinda like going through the motions. I don't mean to be a bad person. It disturbs me that the quality of being *parasitic (in "relationships") might be true of me.

*Parasitic lifestyle was listed as sociopathic quality. I'm not sure if I know the difference between this or just being sensible? Maybe I've always been a user because I don't know what it would mean to be anything else? I mean if I was truly altruistic I'd find some handicapped guy or something. *this came up in my mind today because one of those xso emails appeared again. I thought I officially ended that. He used to complain that I took and never gave. I don't know what the hell that means. He might be right; he called, he planned, I went along with it. I mean in the past, not now.


----------



## drmiller100

Drunk Parrot said:


> *Scene from Mad Men*
> 
> 
> _He replies: "No...I don't think I ever wanted to be the man who loves children. But from the moment they're born, that baby comes out, and you act proud and excited; hand out cigars. But you don't feel anything...especially if you had a difficult childhood. You want to love them but you...don't. And the fact that you're...faking that feeling...makes you wonder if your own father had the same problem. *sigh* And one day they get older... and you see them do something...and you feel....that feeling....you were pretending to have....and it feels like your heart is going to explode."_
> 
> The one thing I'd add to that is after you feel that feeling, it goes away and you might never feel it again.


I have two kids. When they were born, I didnt' feel much, especially compared to how everyone else seemed to act. 
as they grew older, starting about age 4 or 5, I started to feel.... They turned into "people", and they were pretty cool.

My son is off to college. I love seeing him. Daughter lives with me. very very proud of her. she's pretty cool.


----------



## Parrot

Old Intern said:


> I love don Draper. I don't mean a crush, I mean I sort of identified with him, or wanted to. Everybody's got a theory for the "deeper meanings" of the show. But I've heard people describe him as repressed. I think Repressed makes sense for a diagnosis of him because it explains how he is tightly controlled in spots but then bungles through something of a mess he knows he got himself into. Repression also fits with the end show where he decides to join a meditation/ support group thing where he is "finding himself".
> 
> As far as the episode you mention, I have heard other men say that at first a baby is this thing that screams and poops and they don't automatically want to be involved (or they don't feel anything) until some point latter where a baby or child, seems to interact more.
> 
> If I was repressed like Don, maybe that would mean I have something to fix and life would be better, but I don't think that quite fits my case. Could be that I'm just depressed or stuck, but work used to be my high and my low, and everything else is/was kinda like going through the motions. I don't mean to be a bad person. It disturbs me that the quality of being *parasitic (in "relationships") might be true of me.
> 
> *Parasitic lifestyle was listed as sociopathic quality. I'm not sure if I know the difference between this or just being sensible? Maybe I've always been a user because I don't know what it would mean to be anything else? I mean if I was truly altruistic I'd find some handicapped guy or something. *this came up in my mind today because one of those xso emails appeared again. I thought I officially ended that. He used to complain that I took and never gave. I don't know what the hell that means. He might be right; he called, he planned, I went along with it. I mean in the past, not now.


The show is interesting, psychologically, which is generally what attracts me to shows. I keep watching it even though I don't like most of the characters, including Don. Has nothing to do with morals, I just think they're idiotic. Can't say I'd do much better in business. For example, January Jones is a great actress while Betty such a shitty person. At least Roger's* shittyness is charming, Betty is just useless. I guess I keep watching because it seems accurate and their shittyness produces the expected consequences.

As far as repression, it directly translates into a sociopathic/borderline hybrid for Don. He doesn't make any damn sense, as it's a TV show. Many of the online "diagnoses" of him were useless. They focus on his alcoholism. Anyone can be a damn alcohol.

*Roger is my favorite character


----------



## Parrot

drmiller100 said:


> I have two kids. When they were born, I didnt' feel much, especially compared to how everyone else seemed to act.
> as they grew older, starting about age 4 or 5, I started to feel.... They turned into "people", and they were pretty cool.
> 
> My son is off to college. I love seeing him. Daughter lives with me. very very proud of her. she's pretty cool.


You're such an enigma. Can't wait to see you type "smiles..."


----------



## Old Intern

Drunk Parrot said:


> The show is interesting, psychologically, which is generally what attracts me to shows. I keep watching it even though I don't like most of the characters, including Don. Has nothing to do with morals, I just think they're idiotic. Can't say I'd do much better in business. For example, January Jones is a great actress while Betty such a shitty person. At least Roger's* shittyness is charming, Betty is just useless. I guess I keep watching because it seems accurate and their shittyness produces the expected consequences.
> 
> As far as repression, it directly translates into a sociopathic/borderline hybrid for Don. He doesn't make any damn sense, as it's a TV show. Many of the online "diagnoses" of him were useless. They focus on his alcoholism. Anyone can be a damn alcohol.
> 
> *Roger is my favorite character


I like how Roger seems to know how to steer people, especially Don. I get more out of this show than you because I was born in 1961. A lot of this is about how people behaved in that time, the whole martini thing . . . . and the long hair guy (in the art department) and Peggy. Peggy and Joan are iconic "types" of the times, women in the workforce back then. My Dad smoked a pipe and wore one of those (will you be my neighbor type) sweaters when I was a kid.


----------



## Bunny

I find Mad Men to be a bit drab at times but Roger really is cool :kitteh:


----------



## Parrot

Old Intern said:


> I like how Roger seems to know how to steer people, especially Don. I get more out of this show than you because I was born in 1961. A lot of this is about how people behaved in that time, the whole martini thing . . . . and the long hair guy (in the art department) and Peggy. Peggy and Joan are iconic "types" of the times, women in the workforce back then. My Dad smoked a pipe and wore one of those (will you be my neighbor type) sweaters when I was a kid.


It's a foreign world to me, as I was born in '89. Peggys and Joans are the minority, but always memorable.


----------



## Old Intern

I couldn't find the right clip but my favorite Don scene is when he is in a 60's beatnik poetry place, and he calmly tells off the ENFP (save the whales kind of guy), saying that he (Don) blows up bridges for a living and sleeps on a bed of money.


----------



## Old Intern

Drunk Parrot said:


> It's a foreign world to me, as I was born in '89. Peggys and Joans are the minority, but always memorable.


Peggy and Joan are sort of like the plot within the plot (the politics) - but that's my interpretation.


----------



## Parrot

Old Intern said:


> Peggy and Joan are sort of like the plot within the plot (the politics) - but that's my interpretation.


Michael Ginsburg is a rare ENTP 1w2. Everyone else is a psychopath haha


----------



## Old Intern

Drunk Parrot said:


> Michael Ginsburg is a rare ENTP 1w2. Everyone else is a psychopath haha


I forgot about him. I was thinking of the guy with the beard who was the art director - he reminds me of my uncle who was only eight years older than me and went to art school. I recognize all the drawing tools and I had one of those drafting tables.

Ginsberg plays an SJW - dejavu?


----------



## Parrot

Kids like Sally (ENFP) are the ones who grow up with a Cluster B parent and hate any sign of immorality, especially the thought of sociopaths/psychopaths/narcissists existing. *Just watched the episode where she catches him cheating. She has a sociopath father and an NPD mother* I imagine that a portion of the thousands who visited this thread probably read my/our words in absolute disgust. No doubt they probably hate @Occams Chainsaw on sight, haha. And wish me to go to hell.

I wish more people would express their rage/hatred. I find it intriguing and wish to learn more about the void that rots their soul.



Old Intern said:


> I forgot about him. I was thinking of the guy with the beard who was the art director - he reminds me of my uncle who was only eight years older than me and went to art school. I recognize all the drawing tools and I had one of those drafting tables.
> 
> Ginsberg plays an SJW - dejavu?


Ginsburg, high morality, but not an SJW. Peggy's move-in boyfriend was an SJW


----------



## Old Intern

Drunk Parrot said:


> Kids like Sally (ENFP) are the ones who grow up with a Cluster B parent and hate any sign of immorality, especially the thought of sociopaths/psychopaths/narcissists existing. *Just watched the episode where she catches him cheating. She has a sociopath father and an NPD mother* I imagine that a portion of the thousands who visited this thread probably read my/our words in absolute disgust. No doubt they probably hate @_Occams Chainsaw_ on sight, haha. And wish me to go to hell.
> 
> I wish more people would express their rage/hatred. I find it intriguing and wish to learn more about the void that rots their soul.
> 
> 
> 
> Ginsburg, high morality, but not an SJW. Peggy's move-in boyfriend was an SJW


I thought Ginsburg was the dark haired live-in boyfriend. The art directory guy was Peggy's work colleague, but I think he always hoped to be more than that? I don't remember if they had any Romance or not. I'm not talking about the married guy she had an affair with either. This guy, the nice guy co-worker actually subordinate, but personal adviser, shoulder, (mra's might call him emotional tampon?) was blue eyed, beard, casual................. sweetie pie type who ends up hating my guts . . . . . . . .


----------



## Old Intern

I'm not sure about Sally, she goes through a teenager phase but she seems to handle things okay. I mean she manages emotions, but I didn't get the sense that she was disproportionately self interested. She seems to know when to come through for people, and she has times where her emotions rule. This seems normal responsible, not compensating or overly manipulative?

I thought Betty chose to be a product of her environment, more than I had any sense that anything was different about her. I think near the end (later near-end episodes) she steps up to doing what she thinks is best for her kids. Most of the time she just acts the way a lot of 1960's housewives acted. I don't think that means they all had NPD.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Cluster B?


----------



## Parrot

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Cluster B?
> 
> 
> * *


Wow, that was wilder than I expected. I initially listened and didn't give in much thought, but I look up the lyrics and followed along. Definitely much deeper than the video *Ok the video was deep, in its own way: Big head, hazy camera shots, and ending with looking into the mirror*. As far as Cluster B, the winner is *Histrionic!*...or perhaps vulnerable narcissism. The latter as it's a typical Fi lament about the human cost of the rock star lifestyle. 

It's funny how cognitive empathy works. I can completely understand the mindset and thoughts of the singer's persona. I don't feel sorry for them as their life is still objectively better than most people's. However, neither would I belittle their experience. As it turns out, I expect the same from others. Leave your pity at the door but leave your judgment as well.

He kind of sounds like a tard. Anyway, ISFP 9w8. *3rd edit, apparently he was high as shit in this interview. He still sounds autistic, but less so in other interviews.*





*Another edit: I don't think Mike Posner is Cluster B, but I was just providing confirmation bias and I can see how it could define a histrionic's inner dialogue. He talks about dealing with depression...yes I've been listening to this interview way to long.*


----------



## Old Intern

Drunk Parrot said:


> It's funny how cognitive empathy works. I can completely understand the mindset and thoughts of the singer's persona. I don't feel sorry for them as their life is still objectively better than most people's. However, neither would I belittle their experience. As it turns out, I expect the same from others. Leave your pity at the door but leave your judgment as well.


See, this doesn't sound anything but sane and reasonable to me - to view life this way, not a disorder.
Btw, I didn't listen to the video or click it because I assumed it was not worthy of my time. Not a value judgement of goodness or badness, just a choice of where my time goes.

At what point is it sociopathic to simply consider where your time goes, and not tie yourself up with things that you don't control and have no intent of doing anything about? 

I honestly do wonder at what point am I simply freer to be more honest with myself, and most people lie to themselves..... social intimidation where it doesn't make sense?

I'm not saying I was obligated to click the video, just my mind rambled from that to other things in life that might be similar where thinkers just don't see the point to invest effort in some things.


----------



## Desthro

Drunk Parrot said:


> I wish more people would express their rage/hatred. I find it intriguing and wish to learn more about the void that rots their soul.


Thanks for pointing me into this thread.

I personally love stories where the depths of human depravity are fully explored and lain out for all to see. Seeing what we are really capable of, that's good stuff.

All of the feel-good crap that people watch is nice and all, but it feels like self-delusion.


----------



## Parrot

@Desthro welcome to the thread where emotions go to die.




Old Intern said:


> See, this doesn't sound anything but sane and reasonable to me - to view life this way, not a disorder.
> Btw, I didn't listen to the video or click it because I assumed it was not worthy of my time. Not a value judgement of goodness or badness, just a choice of where my time goes.
> 
> I'm not saying I was obligated to click the video, just my mind rambled from that to other things in life that might be similar where thinkers just don't see the point to invest effort in some things.


You know that saying "I didn't feel like watching the video" would suffice haha. 



> At what point is it sociopathic to simply consider where your time goes, and not tie yourself up with things that you don't control and have no intent of doing anything about?
> I honestly do wonder at what point am I simply freer to be more honest with myself, and most people lie to themselves..... social intimidation where it doesn't make sense?


That's more a machiavellian trait that is a key ingredient of both ASPD and psychopathy, as it is rooted in narcissism. What you described is a worldview created by realism, cynicism, and self-preservation. In other words, the world can be a cruel place, there's no reason to concern myself with the plight of others, and I need to make sure I'm taken care of first, by any means necessary.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

NPD: https://soundcloud.com/heestin/sophie-the-way-i-am

I get everything I want;
It's just the way I am.
I get everything I need;
It's just the way it is.


----------



## Bunny

Old Intern said:


> See, this doesn't sound anything but sane and reasonable to me - to view life this way, not a disorder.
> Btw, I didn't listen to the video or click it because I assumed it was not worthy of my time. Not a value judgement of goodness or badness, just a choice of where my time goes.
> 
> At what point is it sociopathic to simply consider where your time goes, and not tie yourself up with things that you don't control and have no intent of doing anything about?
> 
> I honestly do wonder at what point am I simply freer to be more honest with myself, and most people lie to themselves..... social intimidation where it doesn't make sense?
> 
> I'm not saying I was obligated to click the video, just my mind rambled from that to other things in life that might be similar where thinkers just don't see the point to invest effort in some things.


I can relate to this in some ways. 
There have been many times where I just cbf to deal with something if it didn't benefit me.
I sometimes think it's just because I can be lazy and unless I feel it's a "must" then I don't even attempt to do/read/watch whatever it is.
Even if it's really important to others, I can just sort of shrug it off and think nothing of it.
I want to feel bad about it but I don't.

Although if I respect someone enough (which is rare) then I will give my time to them but only them.

It's difficult to keep my attention, I'm not even sure why that is.
I don't necessarily have a short attention span because if I find the topic intriguing enough then I will immerse myself in it.

However, if I find something that interests me more, then I will drop the other and move onto whatever has newly piqued my interest. Then if that starts to bore me, I may go back to the other again.

Of course there are subjects that I never seem to find boring but there's only a handful of them.

I'm not sure if that makes sense because it's still early here lol but I get what you are saying.


----------



## Parrot

Wytch said:


> I can relate to this in some ways.
> There have been many times where I just cbf to deal with something if it didn't benefit me.
> I sometimes think it's just because I can be lazy and unless I feel it's a "must" then I don't even attempt to do/read/watch whatever it is.
> Even if it's really important to others, I can just sort of shrug it off and think nothing of it.
> I want to feel bad about it but I don't.
> 
> Although if I respect someone enough (which is rare) then I will give my time to them but only them.
> 
> It's difficult to keep my attention, I'm not even sure why that is.
> I don't necessarily have a short attention span because if I find the topic intriguing enough then I will immerse myself in it.
> 
> However, if I find something that interests me more, then I will drop the other and move onto whatever has newly piqued my interest. Then if that starts to bore me, I may go back to the other again.
> 
> Of course there are subjects that I never seem to find boring but there's only a handful of them.
> 
> I'm not sure if that makes sense because it's still early here lol but I get what you are saying.


This is about the most you ever type haha.

Did you and @Old Intern listen to the music video? It's so damn catchy. Also the lyrics are so basic that everyone can attach themselves to it.


----------



## Bunny

Drunk Parrot said:


> This is about the most you ever type haha.
> 
> Did you and @Old Intern listen to the music video? It's so damn catchy. Also the lyrics are so basic that everyone can attach themselves to it.


Right? XD
I was going to put a "tl;dr" at the end of it in order to sum up what I said but then I couldn't be bothered.
I do actually have more to say sometimes :tongue:
I just wrote an even longer :gasp: post earlier in the ISTP part of the forum.
It just depends on the subject and my mood.

I did indeed watch the music video and the beat was catchy.
Although the lyrics were basically just him complaining and feeling sorry for himself.
Bleh.


----------



## Bunny

Oh, I forgot to mention this earlier but I was out today looking at necklaces and I saw one with a pendant of a red macaw.
Just like in your avatar =D the parrot was bejeweled and it had a silver chain. 
It made me think of @Drunk Parrot and I wondered when they started making necklaces in his honour lol.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

And I was doing so well...


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Hehe


----------



## Bunny

:kitteh::tongue:roud:


----------



## Metalize

Still interested in the link between psychopaths and BPD.

"Borderline" women actually psychopaths, researchers suggest | Examiner.com

What I would really like is, instead of a superficial list of "traits in common" (which one can do with just about anything), would be an examination of the brains/active regions involved in response to some stimulus.


----------



## Parrot

"Shut your fucking mouth" *proceeds to shut it with dollar bill*


----------



## piano

thoughts on ellen page's character in hard candy?


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

carpe omnia said:


> thoughts on ellen page's character in hard candy?


Is it a good film? Besides the point really but other than seeing you mention it on the other thread I'd not heard of it before. Looks like Cyberbully which was a disappointment. I was hoping she'd commit suicide but it seems the message of it was that you can just shut your laptop and the problem goes away (haha. *knowing smile*).

But if you recommend it I might give it a go tonight.


----------



## piano

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Is it a good film? Besides the point really but other than seeing you mention it on the other thread I'd not heard of it before. Looks like Cyberbully which was a disappointment. I was hoping she'd commit suicide but it seems the message of it was that you can just shut your laptop and the problem goes away (haha. *knowing smile*).
> 
> But if you recommend it I might give it a go tonight.


yes watch it


----------



## Bunny

Drunk Parrot said:


> They may not say that out loud but might think it, especially if the woman doesn't suspect anything. Doing anything serial, as a psychopath, is a gradual addiction. Stimulation is needed, but narc supply is enjoyed too. So a psychopathic serial killer might go out, change his mind, and feel great about himself. Until they kill again, theoretically they might never do it again.
> 
> Now if she knew he was going to kill her, he can't just spare her, if she's seen his face. It's not like when he does, she'd be grateful. No the bitch would go to the cops. Should have kept your eyes closed, lady.


True, I have read about serial killers who take very long breaks in between their killings (or just stop).
I forget which serial killer it was but I know he took a break for a long time because he was married.
But after the divorce is when he started up again.

That reminds me of this one case I read about as to where this guy broke into these two girls' apartment as they were sleeping.
He raped the one girl and she pretended she really liked it and him.
So, once he went over to the other girl, the first girl told the other to basically relax. Saying how good he was and everything. The first girl told him he should come back again even.
Which actually saved their lives and he ended up not killing them.

I just meant that after they killed someone and the person was known to be very kind.
There's always people who just cannot fathom why they would have killed such a pleasant person.

That's true too about many killers in general who simply must kill their victim if they saw them.
It's like there's no way out of it after that. It's their own fault =/ heh.


----------



## Parrot

*Psychopaths and the Serial Storm*
@Wytch, I can describe the psychopath's serial craving in my experience. I was on adderall for a 2 years in college and then went a year without, due to having abused it. Being off it, I was mostly fine and could function normally.

Every once in awhile I'd want it. It got bad when I knew some people I could get it from. When the craving set in (Every 2-4 weeks), I'd get very myopic. All I could think about was getting some pills. The idea of not being able to get them was like imagining a dagger to the heart. In that window of time, it was an obsession. Most of the time, I could get them. Once or twice, I couldn't get them and the self-placed feeling of impending doom quickly went away. I'd feel silly about wanting them that bad and go about my life.

I imagine serial killers want that ultimate high that comes from murder, like Tommy Lynn Sells described. Every month or so they become obsessive enough to find anyway to get that rush. Serial killers are a small fraction of psychopaths, but more common "drugs" would be gambling, sexcapades, drugs, controlling someone. The psychopath knows they don't need it, but I'm guessing they aren't getting enough dopamine from their everyday routine. As in my case, when their failure to obtain results in no outright consequences, a psychopath could come down off that cloud and go back to business as usual. But when the object beckons, the storm subjectively feels unstoppable.

That is why I am hesitant to end my current prescription cycle, despite knowing that they're not helping me like they should. For the rest of my life, I'll have that craving. Shouldn't be a surprise as amphetamine produces 4 times the amount of dopamine in a psychopath, then a normal person. Psychopaths’ brains wired to seek rewards, no matter the consequences | News | Vanderbilt University As of now, I have no solutions to fix my serial addiction. It could be a problem as the punishment for illegally buying pills is hefty jail-time thanks to America's idiotic judicial process.

I'm guessing that the psychopaths who stopped murdering, compulsively gambling, abusing drugs etc., accidentally stumbled upon a solution. I figure if my life became more interesting, I wouldn't want the pills, or at least keep the impulse to every so often...Which is still a problem as society would expect me to _never_ do it, if it's illegally obtained. My "crime" doesn't have a real victim, but I imagine other psychopathic criminals run into this obstacle all too often, hence the high recidivism. It's much harder to justify only "one murder a year", after all.

I'm sure 99% of psychopathic serial killers would agree that murder is not beneficial to society. Hookers and the homeless as common targets reflects that even psychopaths are at least trying to be socially conscious hahaha. But so far, there has been little to improve the coping mechanisms of psychopaths with their serial addictions. And that is because the barriers to overcome are larger than perceived.

Support groups don't work the same as psychopaths lack the ability to form regular emotional attachment. Programs like AA can be successful as fellow alcoholics learn to better empathize with each other and believe staying sober is for more than just themselves. When the "Serial Storm" approaches a psychopath, the decision is between acknowledging potential consequences and obtaining their reward. Between "Boo Rules!" and "Yeah Fun!" The choice isn't that difficult.


----------



## drmiller100

Drunk Parrot said:


> *P* accidentally stumbled upon a solution. I figure if my life became more interesting, I.


motorsports is a big one. I bought a dual sport bike last fall, and been putting on a bunch of miles. Dopamine fix for sure, and run into quite a few selfish assholes. some psychos. 

i used to ride snowmobiles. 200 horsepower, 500 pound sled, light off avalanches............

and there is sex. Does sex give dopamine? How about with different women and variety?

Smiles...........


----------



## drmiller100

10 Crazy Facts About Psychopaths - Listverse


----------



## sinaasappel

^^:ninja:


 #teamalmost @Apple Pine I'm mentioning you :dry:


----------



## Parrot

drmiller100 said:


> 10 Crazy Facts About Psychopaths - Listverse


The link's comments sum up my thoughts. Nothing new was added and it mostly served to reinforce stereotypes, that are based more in fantasy than reality.


----------



## Parrot

I got a fancy new nickname. Other psychopaths wish they had so much Flounce. Much better than being some boring "Special Character".


----------



## The Lawyer

Eh you seem alright Drunk Parrot. I'm not a fan of psychopaths, but I appreciate your honest contribution to understanding the mind of a psychopath at the very least.

With that said and keeping in mind that this is a thread about psychopaths and that it seems to have turned into a popular chat lounge, I'd like to dedicate this wonderful song, especially the line "My mama don't like you and she likes everyone", to all the sex-crazed psychopaths that _tried_ to manipulate their way into my panties with no regard for the consequences of their actions.


----------



## Parrot

The Lawyer said:


> Eh you seem alright Drunk Parrot. I'm not a fan of psychopaths, but I appreciate your honest contribution to understanding the mind of a psychopath at the very least.
> 
> With that said and keeping in mind that this is a thread about psychopaths and that it seems to have turned into a popular chat lounge, I'd like to dedicate this wonderful song, especially the line "My mama don't like you and she likes everyone", to all the sex-crazed psychopaths that _tried_ to manipulate their way into my panties with no regard for the consequences of their actions.


You should be honored that getting into your panties is considered psychopaths' boss level. Or maybe you just have a habit of being "right there" so taking a swing at you is routine?


----------



## Tucken

I have a question, Parrot. 

A psychopath, as it is understood by people, is someone without a conscience. 

Yet ordinary people are just the same. They have very little of this. 

Does this mean that ordinary people are psychopathic? How do you see that you're different from most people?


----------



## Parrot

Tucken said:


> I have a question, Parrot.
> 
> A psychopath, as it is understood by people, is someone without a conscience.
> 
> Yet ordinary people are just the same. They have very little of this.
> 
> Does this mean that ordinary people are psychopathic? How do you see that you're different from most people?


According to your logic, there is no difference. Your logic is wrong, though. Ordinary people have emotions that give them a conscience. Their moral parameters might be idiotic, but they still exist. I would say the main conclusion to make is that your social observation is flawed.


----------



## Tucken

Drunk Parrot said:


> According to your logic, there is no difference. Your logic is wrong, though. Ordinary people have emotions that give them a conscience. Their moral parameters might be idiotic, but they still exist. I would say the main conclusion to make is that your social observation is flawed.


Would a psychopath lie to have what it wants? People are like this, too.


----------



## Parrot

Tucken said:


> Would a psychopath lie to have what it wants? People are like this, too.


No they aren't. But if you believe all people are, then being bitter towards humanity is inevitable. Most people are naively honest, and when they lie, it's obvious.


----------



## Tucken

Drunk Parrot said:


> No they aren't. But if you believe all people are, then being bitter towards humanity is inevitable. Most people are naively honest, and when they lie, it's obvious.


You have much more faith in humanity than I do, isn't that ironic?


----------



## Parrot

Tucken said:


> You have much more faith in humanity than I do, isn't that ironic?


It would be if my view was based on faith in humanity. Instead, it's based on observation. I don't have faith in the goodness of mankind. I find them to be naively trusting, forgiving to a fault, strangely believing mankind is good, believing that empathy is greater than a neurological function, and blissfully ignorant of how life works.

You see others as wolves, I see blind sheep whose actions are predictable. You see, I don't have more faith than you do in humanity. I'm just less impressed by their nefarious abilities.


----------



## The Lawyer

Drunk Parrot said:


> You should be honored that getting into your panties is considered psychopaths' boss level. Or maybe you just have a habit of being "right there" so taking a swing at you is routine?


I don't work in a prison, if that is what you meant


----------



## drmiller100

People are stupid. Three people were working a desk. I needed information. 
The first person made shit up to make me happy. I questioned her, and she made up more shit. So, I asked a question, sort of nicely, to where it was obvious I knew more than her, but not enough, and she's an idiot, and I knew she was making shit up.

The second person pulled the third into the convo, who was smart enough to tell me what she knew and not lie. 

All typical.


----------



## Parrot

The Lawyer said:


> I don't work in a prison, if that is what you meant


That's not what I meant at all. Most psychopaths are not in prison, shit.

I meant that your persona + hypothetical good looks make you a difficult lay.


----------



## drmiller100

one of my gigs is i have a mechanic shop. some dude wanted 1000 bucks of work on his van, and picked me.

parts girl shows up. SMOKIN' hot. "Love" tattooed on her inner fore arm. 

I said "Looking for love?" with a smile.
Her response: "To find love you first must love yourself."
My response: "I've got that covered. I'm not short on self love."

Think I have a chance?


----------



## Parrot

drmiller100 said:


> one of my gigs is i have a mechanic shop. some dude wanted 1000 bucks of work on his van, and picked me.
> 
> parts girl shows up. SMOKIN' hot. "Love" tattooed on her inner fore arm.
> 
> I said "Looking for love?" with a smile.
> Her response: "To find love you first must love yourself."
> My response: "I've got that covered. I'm not short on self love."
> 
> Think I have a chance?


You're totally going to nail her!


----------



## puzzled

Tucken said:


> How do you see that you're different from most people?


Just a disclaimer: _I am *not* answering as parrot_; this is me answering. 

I'd say most 7 year olds don't decorate the living room with the family cat's entrails.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Why are animals often first? Do we feel there is a discrete difference between them and us? Is it a matter of humans just being more difficult to hurt or get rid of? What about children?

I poisoned a dog at 4 but never tried that with my annoying siblings as a kid. Did I sense that the dog would be easier to get away with?


----------



## sinaasappel

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Why are animals often first? Do we feel there is a discrete difference between them and us? Is it a matter of humans just being more difficult to hurt or get rid of? What about children?
> 
> I poisoned a dog at 4 but never tried that with my annoying siblings as a kid. Did I sense that the dog would be easier to get away with?


I would hope not


----------



## Parrot

puzzled said:


> Just a disclaimer: _I am *not* answering as parrot_; this is me answering.
> 
> I'd say most 7 year olds don't decorate the living room with the family cat's entrails.


Haha, this is not me. I have no idea who this gifted young art prodigy is. Did you at least make a pattern or picture? Or was the spreading more important?


----------



## puzzled

Drunk Parrot said:


> Did you at least make a pattern or picture?


I did not. It's a shame. In those days I did not revel in the beauty of patterns and puzzles.



Drunk Parrot said:


> Haha, this is not me.


Indeed. By being obnoxiously clear, my goal was to preclude other users from making false presumptions on your behalf.


----------



## Parrot

puzzled said:


> I did not. It's a shame. In those days I did not revel in the beauty of patterns and puzzles.
> 
> Indeed. By being obnoxiously clear, my goal was to preclude other users from making false presumptions on your behalf.


:welcome:

We've been looking for new psychopaths to grace this thread. Tell us, besides killing a cat, your resume?


----------



## puzzled

Drunk Parrot said:


> :welcome:
> 
> We've been looking for new psychopaths to grace this thread. Tell us, besides killing a cat, your resume?


Would you prefer that I address you as officer, or is Parrot okay?


----------



## Parrot

puzzled said:


> Would you prefer that I address you as officer, or is Parrot okay?


Um, I haven't referred to you by name. When you quote someone, you just say "you". Otherwise, parrot is fine.


----------



## The Lawyer

Drunk Parrot said:


> You're totally going to nail her!


Judging by that 1 sentence that she said, everyone will


----------



## Parrot

@Wytch I got 2000+ views in 4 hours with 38 current lurkers. How's that for narc supply?
http://personalitycafe.com/intp-forum-thinkers/818938-entp-seducing-intps-invasion-thread.html


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

Drunk Parrot said:


> @Wytch I got 2000+ views in 4 hours with 38 current lurkers. How's that for narc supply?
> http://personalitycafe.com/intp-forum-thinkers/818938-entp-seducing-intps-invasion-thread.html


This is a psychopathy thread. I suggest you create a narcissism thread where you (and others) can post things like this.


----------



## Parrot

Earthious said:


> This is a psychopathy thread. I suggest you create a narcissism thread where you (and others) can post things like this.


3300+ views now. Imagine how many enjoyable activities have been started simply because someone was feeling a bit narcissistic. So many people have a great time at a place, because someone wanted the attention. Narcissism makes the world go around and everyone else can ride on the coattails for non-narc reasons.


----------



## drmiller100

Drunk Parrot said:


> everyone else can ride on the coattails for non-narc reasons.


I call those people "codependent." 

a counselor once told me she thinks of a spectrum with codependent on one end, and narcisssism on the other. 

There is a middle ground populated by no one.

Where do you fit? Your ultimate soul mate is equidistant on the ohter side of the balance point.

We're all just lookin' for a little luuuuuuvvvvvv


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

I got told today that I have some schizoid-type traits. In hearing it, I beamed from ear to ear and cheered "Yesssss!". It's been a running gag with metalize that they are superior-- and here we have it! 

She's trying to make an artful diagnosis because I don't fit AsPD nor NPD very well by themselves or comorbidly. At this point I'm just indulging her because she talks out loud about her thoughts about me and I like that.

My traits, if we ignore things not in DSM, take clusters from AsPD, SPD, NPD and OCPD. Which is interesting because this is how we often describe the traits of a psychopath anyway. I'm worried we're completing a self-fulfilling prophecy and knowledge of a 'diagnosis' (I suppose categorisation would be more accurate) is clouding judgement. Perhaps talking to somebody without a history would be be useful. But what for? A badge? I think our theory is in learning where my traits lay, we can look at how to manage them if/as/when they get progressively worse. But mostly I think she's just curious about me which is both flattering and disappointing.


----------



## Parrot

Occams Chainsaw said:


> I got told today that I have some schizoid-type traits. In hearing it, I beamed from ear to ear and cheered "Yesssss!". It's been a running gag with metalize that they are superior-- and here we have it!
> 
> She's trying to make an artful diagnosis because I don't fit AsPD nor NPD very well by themselves or comorbidly. At this point I'm just indulging her because she talks out loud about her thoughts about me and I like that.
> 
> My traits, if we ignore things not in DSM, take clusters from AsPD, SPD, NPD and OCPD. Which is interesting because this is how we often describe the traits of a psychopath anyway. I'm worried we're completing a self-fulfilling prophecy and knowledge of a 'diagnosis' (I suppose categorisation would be more accurate) is clouding judgement. Perhaps talking to somebody without a history would be be useful. But what for? A badge? I think our theory is in learning where my traits lay, we can look at how to manage them if/as/when they get progressively worse. But mostly I think she's just curious about me which is both flattering and disappointing.


What schizoid traits did the psychologist suggest?


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Drunk Parrot said:


> What schizoid traits did the psychologist suggest?


There are a few. But ones that stuck out to me in particular that we discussed are

*Avoidant and Apathetic relationship style*: An example we talked a bit about about a strange instance in my teens where I was was to go on a date with a girl I'd been seeing approx 3-4 weeks intensely and she messaged to say she wan on her way. I said I was too, while laying on my bed. She arrived, I texted I was on my way, having not moved, then again 20 minutes later, then I fell asleep. I woke up to a tonne of messages asking where I was almost two hours later. I never responded and didn't speak to her throughout the summer. When school started back up in the September, I continued as if the relationship and that incident had never happened.

I apparently exhibit intensity and then display odd apathetic behaviours for seemingly no reason. I joked that it sounds pretty Borderline, but my view of the person nor myself nor the situation hasn't actually changed, which it would in the borderline idealisation and devaluation splitting, etc. 

*Inner vs Outer world* I've written a lot about my yearn for emotional intensity and my futile attempt at it. But she thinks this is my exhibiting of a _schizoid fantasy_. Interestingly, I'd compare this to what we'd call in MBTI an Ni-Fi loop. But the point is I have a tendency to prefer this inner world and so close myself off into it, living it online or in private on my own, having kind of accepted it won't happen in reality.

*My ego style* isn't typical of what we expect from NPD or AsPD, nor my aggression.


----------



## Parrot

@Occams Chainsaw You've posted this, before, but I'm confused by the "Neural pathways for these things never created since the switch has always been turned 'on'." Psychopaths can feel empathy, it's just short-lived and not replicated. When I have had empathy, it felt like a neural override where I couldn't find a reason _not_ to have empathy. And that's just been in the last couple of years as Fe has developed. Most emotions are more narc based, as we've discussed the Amygdala and frontal lobe deficits.

Is MAO-A, in terms of a warrior gene, necessary for psychopathy, in the academic sense? I'm not a real aggressive guy, but I'd kill if necessary. Martin Shkreli, whom we agree is a psychopath, didn't seem violently aggressive, but more shrewd and amoral. I'm just trying to understand this gene as it seems to correlate with type 8 as a core or fix. Or anti-social tendencies. Even then, it sounds like it can be triggered in certain sociopath individuals, but isn't defined by all those who are anti-social. At least it doesn't directly reflect in their main personality. Some of the sociopaths I've known were just charming liars, not dominant warriors.


----------



## ShadowsRunner

Can someone show multiple characteristics of a "psychopath" but not be? I think I've grown up and been in environments where people display or had personality disorders that bordered on psychopathic, but I never could say or not.

I think to some degree, it must be learned or taught and is not outright genetic. 

Honestly, it's really hard to tell with some people. I've always thought that much of the world almost borders or seems in the range of "psycho or socio" lol, the lack of empathy, caring or concern; like it seems REALLY common.

Anyway, I am of the mind that you can at least create or turn somebody into one, even if some people just naturally are. I think I almost displayed some tendencies as well one I was younger, everyone sort of wondered and worried about me...I seemed to have a profound interest in the darkside.


----------



## Parrot

Meteoric Shadows said:


> Can someone show multiple characteristics of a "psychopath" but not be? I think I've grown up and been in environments where people display or had personality disorders that bordered on psychopathic, but I never could say or not.
> 
> I think to some degree, it must be learned or taught and is not outright genetic.


I just think your definitions aren't correct. Psychopathy is neurological and sociopathy is behavioral. Psychopaths exhibit sociopathic traits, to a degree. For example, lying is sociopathic as it's a behavior. A psychopath, though, doesn't have an internal moral reason not to lie, so lying is seen as psychopathic or both. But I'd argue that someone showing psychopathic traits is actually showing sociopathic traits. Psychopathic neurology is much harder to detect as they're unlikely to invite someone into their inner mind.

This is just me, Occam might disagree.



> Honestly, it's really hard to tell with some people. I've always thought that much of the world almost borders or seems in the range of "psycho or socio" lol, the lack of empathy, caring or concern; like it seems REALLY common.


You strike me as some kind of cluster B, maybe BPD. I think the opposite and see that most people are naively "good" and situationally hypocritical. But the idea that most people are more sociopathic is a stretch.



> Anyway, I am of the mind that you can at least create or turn somebody into one, even if some people just naturally are. I think I almost displayed some tendencies as well one I was younger, everyone sort of wondered and worried about me...I seemed to have a profound interest in the darkside.


Anyone can become a sociopath, BPD, narcissistic.

But there's a certain brand of human that must be born as a narcissist or psychopath. Just like ADHD, as a brain neurology, is biological but certain aspects of society have caused attention deficits to increase.


----------



## sereneone

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Epigenetic mutation, and two instances:
> 
> First, we must note that the expression of the gene that is activated in psychopathy is not available to everyone and is in fact a heritable mutation. This clearly helps us understand why some abusive environments result in PTSD victims rather than psychopaths.
> 
> It seems this environment, when the correct phenotype of MAO-A (3R allele) is available, because it is shorter than usual, produces less MAO enzyme meaning less serotonin and dopamine and other neurotransmitters can be broken down, often leading to aggression and other behavioral differences.
> 
> This doesn't change the gene sequence. Epigenetic mutation is the switching of expression of a particular phenotype of a gene. When people say they have the warrior gene, probably the warrior phenotype is more correct.


That was a nice discussion of genetics, epigenetics, and environment related to psychopathy. Do you have a degree in a biological science or you just do this for fun?

Do you think the genetics part of this is ready for prime time? I had several doctors look at my 23andme for MTFHR variations, and honestly I thought that was the amateur hour. There are too many feedback loops, and there is very little understanding of how these things work in a bigger context. Even worse, they treat your MTFHR deficiencies by loading you up on vitamins, and then they never adequately test after dosing to understand the follow-on effects. I'm pretty negative on the experience and the vitamins did me much more harm than good.


----------



## Bunny

Drunk Parrot said:


> Yes, except I'm not actually blowing up apartment buildings. I wouldn't hang around if I did that, and I don't know why I even would do that. My strategy is more a) befriend the immigrants b) help them feel comfortable in their community c) tax them for protection, which is ok because they felt befriended.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds accurate for the psychopath with anti-social behavior.


You beat me to it :tongue:, I was also going to say to @sereneone that what they were describing was more-so sociopathic behaviour.



> @Wytch you typed a lot :bored:


XD I should have put a "tl;dr" but hey I haven't been able to post in weeks.
 I was going through withdraw.
Now I will post something even longer :kitteh:!
(Just kidding)



> 1. The serial killer was looking for the dopamine high, not an emotional fix
> 2. The Purge is a terrible idea haha
> 3. I do want to appear perfectly normal and successful. Otherwise, people get paranoid and assume I'm blowing up apartments
> 4. Not sure the animal factor. My friend just got an aussie shepherd. Hate that dog...well it just gets too jumpy. Although this might sound empathetic, I wouldn't secretly do anything to the dog. I don't want to deal with my friend and his gf upset. Besides the dog isn't bad, it's just annoying, I can ignore it, so I've never given hurting it a serious thought. I'm guessing a younger psychopath doesn't think those things true so they just experiment to find out what might happen.
> 5. I have my own metric for narc supply. I am on this website waaayyy more than before. Since I ran out of adderall, as I'm going to "quit"? I need to be stimulated, so the invasion threads were actually ways to sustain energy and keep my attention.


Right, yes, dopamine. I sometimes confuse that with an emotional fix but I do understand the difference.
Will remember that.

The Purge would be fun, to a point, I think.

I suppose that's kind of general "predator" behaviour, in a way?
Blending in with your environment, trying to not startle the prey and all of that kind of stuff.

Well, I didn't think psychopaths lacked all empathy but I would imagine it's not as frequent.
I actually get that, I used to pet sit for my Father and Step Mother.
They have a dog and a cat, the dog is awesome he's really smart and laid-back but the cat... I cannot stand it.
It's not smart at all, it tries to scare the dog & it never listens.
I had a cat growing up but I liked that one.
I'm actually surprised the dog hasn't killed it yet XD I wouldn't hurt this cat but yeah... I've thought about it.

As for a young psychopath, I think curiosity has a lot to do with it as well.
I mean all kids are curious but this would be on a different level.

Aha, I see.
Does it really help you as much as the adderall did?

tl;dr - A fun gif.

* *


----------



## ShadowsRunner

Drunk Parrot said:


> I just think your definitions aren't correct. Psychopathy is neurological and sociopathy is behavioral. Psychopaths exhibit sociopathic traits, to a degree. For example, lying is sociopathic as it's a behavior. A psychopath, though, doesn't have an internal moral reason not to lie, so lying is seen as psychopathic or both. But I'd argue that someone showing psychopathic traits is actually showing sociopathic traits. Psychopathic neurology is much harder to detect as they're unlikely to invite someone into their inner mind.
> 
> This is just me, Occam might disagree.
> 
> 
> 
> You strike me as some kind of cluster B, maybe BPD. I think the opposite and see that most people are naively "good" and situationally hypocritical. But the idea that most people are more sociopathic is a stretch.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone can become a sociopath, BPD, narcissistic.
> 
> But there's a certain brand of human that must be born as a narcissist or psychopath. Just like ADHD, as a brain neurology, is biological but certain aspects of society have caused attention deficits to increase.


Erm, so I am Borderline because I have thought that much of the world portrays traits that seem only socio or psychopathetic to me? really? oh, because obviously I must be histrionic and a manipulative liar to think such a thing, lol.


Meh, the consensus is still out, the evidence has not really been able to proof the science or existence of "mental illness" no matter what the pharmaceutical industry would have everyone believe. It is a behavior problem, but very heavily related to and based off of societal customs and belief systems for whatever may seem to us as "abnormal" or "strange" 

The more we push the idea and prevalence of "mental illness" on the masses and populace, the more fear will arise from disobeying, looking foolish, and not "conforming" and thus, a society taught to do exactly as it's told.

Don't shoot the messenger!


* *


----------



## Bunny

sereneone said:


> With a psychopath, how do they get to the point that they are emotionally numb? I have seen studies where they associate this condition with environmental conditions like having a convicted parent, being physically neglected, coming from a disrupted family, etc. So I am imagining someone with so much trauma in their early emotional life that they turn to psychopathic behavior to give them some kind of satisfying release.
> 
> Then again, psychopathy apparently has strong genetic ties, and children of psychopaths often are psychopaths, so who knows.


As @Drunk Parrot and others have mentioned on here.
Psychopaths are born, not made so... it's kind of just already there without any help needed.
They just are.

I'm pretty sure but anyone can correct me if I am in the wrong here.

Sociopaths are a product of their environment though and they are made in the ways you've described.

Sociopaths are a lot more common (though not common as a whole) and therefore people may see these sociopaths as psychopaths. Because I would imagine it is a lot rarer to run into a psychopath.
Also psychopaths can (usually) just be seen as a "normal" person.
You may have met one but you never knew it.

I think psychopaths are more aware of how they are than sociopaths.
Which makes it easier for a psychopath to get by without anyone knowing what they are.

_Or_ it's just that psychopaths like blending in more than sociopaths do.


----------



## Parrot

1. The Purge is dumb but does highlight the theory that crime is an important part of the economy for all the jobs it helps create. It also gives cities a chance to point their usefulness to the people and can make or break politicians. I'm so/sx so thinking in terms of society is natural. Giving a fuck about someone else's or my personal property is not my strong suit.
2. I mean I guess it's wolf in sheep clothing. But there's a difference between actively preying, like a serial "______" and just being a dick at times. I take advantage of people's good will on a micro scale. Haven't bought toilet paper in awhile as I just "borrow" from my roommates who are always empathetic to understand my shitty situation.
3. Don't care for any animals. But I like a laid-back animal, alright. I just don't like the dogs/cats that try to climb on me. If it just lazes there, I'll actually pet it and even play with it. But hate when they try to make me love them. Maybe that triggers my inner need to not be controlled and a docile pet is something I'm in control of?
4. I would imagine curiosity or a utilitarian purpose is the reason. The media and populace perceive it as pure evil hate. People are more complex than that which is why I created this thread to show psychopath's a 3 dimensional, like everyone else.
5. My invasion threads have provided plenty of dopamine. Basically I want to be able to type, click reply and have a new notification to respond to. Not being able to do so bores me so I might go smoke. I just want the constant mental activity.
6. That's a nice ass.



> I think psychopaths are more aware of how they are than sociopaths.
> Which makes it easier for a psychopath to get by without anyone knowing what they are.


 @Wytch I'd argue that unless I'm committing serious crimes, there's no reason for people to know I'm a psychopath. What good does it do to identify me as one if I'm just ordering a burger? I've manipulated plenty of people but I doubt I've caused a lot of harm. If so...fuck it.



Meteoric Shadows said:


> Erm, so I am Borderline because I have thought that much of the world portrays traits that seem only socio or psychopathetic to me? really? oh, because obviously I must be histrionic and a manipulative liar to think such a thing, lol.


My bad, should have said histrionic for you. Not insulting you just proposing since you're on this thread that discusses Cluster B.



> Meh, the consensus is still out, the evidence has not really been able to proof the science or existence of "mental illness" no matter what the pharmaceutical industry would have everyone believe. It is a behavior problem, but very heavily related to and based off of societal customs and belief systems for whatever may seem to us as "abnormal" or "strange"


Which is why my definitions have just as much worth as anyones



> The more we push the idea and prevalence of "mental illness" on the masses and populace, the more fear will arise from disobeying, looking foolish, and not "conforming" and thus, a society taught to do exactly as it's told.


Are you angry at the world?


----------



## Bunny

Drunk Parrot said:


> 1. The Purge is dumb but does highlight the theory that crime is an important part of the economy for all the jobs it helps create. It also gives cities a chance to point their usefulness to the people and can make or break politicians. I'm so/sx so thinking in terms of society is natural. Giving a fuck about someone else's or my personal property is not my strong suit.
> 2. I mean I guess it's wolf in sheep clothing. But there's a difference between actively preying, like a serial "______" and just being a dick at times. I take advantage of people's good will on a micro scale. Haven't bought toilet paper in awhile as I just "borrow" from my roommates who are always empathetic to understand my shitty situation.
> 3. Don't care for any animals. But I like a laid-back animal, alright. I just don't like the dogs/cats that try to climb on me. If it just lazes there, I'll actually pet it and even play with it. But hate when they try to make me love them. Maybe that triggers my inner need to not be controlled and a docile pet is something I'm in control of?
> 4. I would imagine curiosity or a utilitarian purpose is the reason. The media and populace perceive it as pure evil hate. People are more complex than that which is why I created this thread to show psychopath's a 3 dimensional, like everyone else.
> 5. My invasion threads have provided plenty of dopamine. Basically I want to be able to type, click reply and have a new notification to respond to. Not being able to do so bores me so I might go smoke. I just want the constant mental activity.
> 6. That's a nice ass.


1. I'll agree with that. I do wonder though if it would actually stop people from committing more crimes than they normally would. Because of The Purge, they just wait until that particular day and that day only.
:shrugs:

2. I didn't mean that you were actually preying on anyone in a serial killer way but I thought the analogy fit.
Haha, hey that's no a bad thing. I mean if you can get something for free then why not. :imo:

3. It very well could be and I'm not saying I'm like you but I do feel that same way. I do not like animals that get "all up in my business" either. I'm actually quite stern with animals, make sure they listen to me and do what I say.
I hate anyone or anything forcing me to do something (outside of the bedroom) heh.

4. People overuse the word "evil" WAY too much, I have actually talked on this before.
People always say how "evil" someone is after they've committed certain crimes.
It's really wrong to think in those terms. It's very black and white.
I don't like it at all, I definitely think there needs to be more understanding on this topic as well.

5. This place is great for that. Notifications are fun :kitteh:

6. Ikr?

Here's another XD

* *


















> @Wytch I'd argue that unless I'm committing serious crimes, there's no reason for people to know I'm a psychopath. What good does it do to identify me as one if I'm just ordering a burger? I've manipulated plenty of people but I doubt I've caused a lot of harm. If so...fuck it.


Oh I know, and that is why I said what I said.
Perhaps I worded that wrong.
I don't think of psychopaths as constantly harming people physically or mentally.
I just meant that most people probably will not recognise a psychopath when they see one and simply that.
Not that they _need_ to identify one.


----------



## Bunny

Drunk Parrot said:


> I've talked about mine. Tell us about your mother.
> 
> Already heard that your dad seemed to have a problem with hitting you. Not sure what the cause of that was...:tongue:
> 
> .


I first read that as "hitting on you".
Haha.


----------



## ShadowsRunner

@_Drunk Parrot_ 


A mixture of things...

Honestly, I'm just flailing my arms around, and trying to dance as freely to the beat inside as I can possibly fluster; but I guess I bump into other dancers in the ballroom way too much then I should.


----------



## Parrot

1. Serial killers do it monthly not yearly, a lot of the time. Besides, I can't imagine most people being cool with this as it makes everyone a target. Also, I would get some pretty intense bombs. Basically, 1 purge is all society could ever have.

2. It does make sense, I can be parasitic without realizing it

3. I'm just apathetic with animals. I don't want them to look at me. Ok, I do like corgis, though.

4. It's a type 1 core/fix thing. I recognize that kind of thinking can help society. But it also hurts it, especially considering the American prison system. Occam would be doing 10 years for some of his shit, but Britain is responsible and sends him to a psychologist.

5. Formal will be a notifications orgy for me. I'm excited

6. She's for the tits guys. Her ass is just complementary but not a world class ass.

7. Semantics are important for us NTPs.



Meteoric Shadows said:


> A mixture of things...


Of course so, I expected that. Not criticizing you, as it's not like it's your fault.


----------



## ShadowsRunner

only in japan


----------



## Bunny

Drunk Parrot said:


> 1. Serial killers do it monthly not yearly, a lot of the time. Besides, I can't imagine most people being cool with this as it makes everyone a target. Also, I would get some pretty intense bombs. Basically, 1 purge is all society could ever have.
> 
> 2. It does make sense, I can be parasitic without realizing it
> 
> 3. I'm just apathetic with animals. I don't want them to look at me. Ok, I do like corgis, though.
> 
> 4. It's a type 1 core/fix thing. I recognize that kind of thinking can help society. But it also hurts it, especially considering the American prison system. Occam would be doing 10 years for some of his shit, but Britain is responsible and sends him to a psychologist.
> 
> 5. Formal will be a notifications orgy for me. I'm excited
> 
> 6. She's for the tits guys. Her ass is just complementary but not a world class ass.
> 
> 7. Semantics are important for us NTPs.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course so, I expected that. Not criticizing you, as it's not like it's your fault.


1. True but I would think it could help somewhat to _some_ people but I doubt we'll ever know.

2. I think certain people really like giving, it's a boost to their ego but either way.
Yay for free stuff. 

3. XD Cute.

4. I agree, truly.
No one seems to really want to understand, they just want to condemn.
It's sad.

5. Woohoo XD :kitteh:

6. I wanted to show a topside since I already showed a bottom-side lol.
Her ass is nice but the other ass is way better :nods:
Her boobs are fantastic though.

7. :tongue: Oh you NTPs.


----------



## Parrot

Wytch said:


> 1. True but I would think it could help somewhat to _some_ people but I doubt we'll ever know.
> 
> 2. I think certain people really like giving, it's a boost to their ego but either way.
> Yay for free stuff.
> 
> 3. XD Cute.
> 
> 4. I agree, truly.
> No one seems to really want to understand, they just want to condemn.
> It's sad.
> 
> 5. Woohoo XD :kitteh:
> 
> 6. I wanted to show a topside since I already showed a bottom-side lol.
> Her ass is nice but the other ass is way better :nods:
> Her boobs are fantastic though.
> 
> 7. :tongue: Oh you NTPs.


I say take the Purge enthusiasts, put them in a televised match Colosseum and let them kill each other. Not really practical to force all of society to participate to help some weirdos blow off steam. That's what GTA is for. I do recognize that my impact on others ranges from helpful to shitting on them, metaphorically of course (semantics). I often do both. As I posted a page or two ago, the expectations for how psychopaths operate is really high. The reason psychopaths go unnotice is because people are looking for Ted Bundy, not the dude behind them in line who just wants a burger. Psychopaths might not care about others, but that doesn't mean they automatically wish to hurt them. Well, it might be an amusing thought but my goal, everyday, is to receive as much output on as little input as possible. Ruining other people's lives just seems like too much work. Poor Richard Ramirez, if he had the internet, he would just troll online, instead of murdering/raping. Seriously, I bet the internet has greatly helped in pacifying psychopathic needs for stimulation.


----------



## Parrot

The ENTPs are having an intense conversation about free will: http://personalitycafe.com/entp-forum-visionaries/829281-free-will.html I argued that the concept is dependent on the existence of a higher power, of sorts, that gives the term legitimacy. Otherwise, free will, love, empathy, etc. has just as much meaning as a fart.

I also think that in a pure evolutionary world system, then psychopaths are the only ones that truly have free will as we aren't bound my an arbitrary moral conscience. I think God might exist, so my thoughts aren't as certain regarding free will. But if he doesn't, then morality is such a huge waste of time.


----------



## drmiller100

Drunk Parrot said:


> The ENTPs are having an intense conversation about free will: http://personalitycafe.com/entp-forum-visionaries/829281-free-will.html I argued that the concept is dependent on the existence of a higher power, of sorts, that gives the term legitimacy. Otherwise, free will, love, empathy, etc. has just as much meaning as a fart.
> 
> I also think that in a pure evolutionary world system, then psychopaths are the only ones that truly have free will as we aren't bound my an arbitrary moral conscience. I think God might exist, so my thoughts aren't as certain regarding free will. But if he doesn't, then morality is such a huge waste of time.



i did that shit in college. yawn.

i like boobs.


----------



## Felipe

Drunk Parrot said:


> I also think that in a pure evolutionary world system, then psychopaths are the only ones that truly have free will as *we* aren't bound my an arbitrary moral conscience.


we?


----------



## Parrot

drmiller100 said:


> i did that shit in college. yawn.
> 
> i like boobs.


I'm more of an ass man. I agree with *yawn* which is why I said that universal morality has the same worth as a fart.



Felipe said:


> we?


Yes, we as in the psychopaths who frequent this thread including this user who created it.

*Not all commenters are psychopaths


----------



## Felipe

Drunk Parrot said:


> Yes, we as in the psychopaths who frequent this thread including this user who created it.
> 
> *Not all commenters are psychopaths


I suspect 2 of them in the entire forum, not you though. Which means either you're doing a good job of hiding it or..ah whatever I don't wanna go into that.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

xrx said:


> I also disliked the actor who played Kevin. Idk why. I just didn't like his face. Altogether it was better than I thought it would be but I wanted more psychological analysis.


I enjoyed the way it played around with perception though, you have the actor for kevin becoming less pretty through out the movie. I think most the analysis is through visual cues, I liked it because of the comparative subtly of it slowly building to the eventual conclusion.

I don't think it was necessarily the actor so much as the character and his various experiences that I related to.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

@vimalahot I'm guessing your addressing the title of the thread

I think that's fair since anything about psychopathy is so vague and there are so many variations thought to be of (like even being able to turn empathy on and off?). It's a box, because bitches be afraid of hedonistic robots.


----------



## Mange

To Kill for Sport said:


> I enjoyed the way it played around with perception though, you have the actor for kevin becoming less pretty through out the movie. I think most the analysis is through visual cues, I liked it because of the comparative subtly of it slowly building to the eventual conclusion.
> 
> I don't think it was necessarily the actor so much as the character and his various experiences that I related to.


I'm into watching a lot of non fiction /documentary style shit on apd and when he did that monologue at the restaurant with his mom that just totally turned me off to the whole rest of the movie because I knew it was just acting... I could relate to some of his attitudes but I just.. I don't know, I wasn't impressed. At times it seemed corny. 

Lucky for me it was free on Hulu so no complaints there.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

***I am posting stuff that I am very sensitive about, so please don't be mean. I am not interested in dealing with ableist or hateful statements.**
*


Drunk Parrot said:


> A common theme I've read from self-described psychopaths is that they believed the emotional exchange was faked and a game. A person couldn't possibly care that much, but it was what people do in society and I was expected to do it too. That is why I am Drunk Parrot. A parrot copies the words of its owner, but doesn't necessarily understand what they mean. Parrots are not dumb, but the depth of saying "I love you" is lost on a parrot. Drunk refers to the normative state of enthusiasm that I exist in. It also describes the depressant qualities that alcohol plays on the brain. For the most part, I am numb. I do not feel much. When I drive an hour to work, I drive in silence. I am mostly in my mind and I do not have many different moods. Rather, I wake up pretty consistently content unless I feel excitement about the day.


*tbh, I become numb in response to extremely upsetting event. Because my body can't cope with it. And it's the happiest I have ever been. I wouldn't want to stay there forever tho.

*


> _If you were to lack empathy, this would never happen. Hurting others would leave you numb, and be as trivial as eating with your mouth full - just another convention. In that case, the only reason for doing neither would be fear of punishment – not guilt or compassion. If such an unempathic man would be alone in a dark alley with an attractive women and no one to punish him what would stand in the way of his lust?
> _


*First of all, the fear of punishment thing stands out to me. Because empathy is such a complicated but touchy topic no one wants to talk about what is important. There are cluster B PDs, BPD for example - or forget PDs, ANY person who is so paranoid and distrustful of the world he cannot see what the other person's intention is, will act out of fear of punishment. Doesn't make him a psychopath. With BPD for example, I read one study where it said that BPD have trouble with cognitive empathy, which is understanding the intention of others, versus emotional empathy, which is feeling what others feel. In fact, they have higher emotional empathy. But because they are unable to reason their way out of the fear inducing circumstance by truly understanding why the other person is behaving that way, they stay stuck in this awful fear loop. People who have been (or just people with prejudice) personally wronged by someone with BPD with wrongly condemn the BPD of being "sociopathic." Which only makes the BPD more distressed, desperate and suicidal. It can, in my experience anyway, be resolved when the person starts to accept themselves. 

Which brings me to the next topic, and that is I find it very hypocritical when someone who condemns ableism as morally reprehensible uses "sociopathic," as an insult. And I have encountered people who do that. 

As for what that quote is suggesting at the end, it does sound very dangerous.
*


> Do psychopaths intentionally disregard empathy and morals?
> 
> Mostly, however, I am completely unaware if I am causing others pain.


*This can be dangerous (psychologically) to others around you.
*


> One of the traits of psychopathy is "callousness" towards others emotions.


*I really wonder if it comes from, or is followed by, callousness to your emotions. I have found that often the way you treat the world reflects the way you treat yourself.
*


> If you were color blind, would you not be annoyed if people made fun of you for it? (_Note: People who are color blind are not psychopaths, it is just an analogy_). Now imagine if being colored blind had serious ramifications like being socially ostracized. The natural response for psychopaths is callousness, because explaining that you cannot feel other's emotions is akin to admitting you're not human. The other response is to hide it. That is the reason we must wear a mask, because we need others to accept us in order to survive. Of course, if everything is going smoothly, I actually enjoy the company of friends and I like people. But when life or a situation is on edge, survival mode kicks in and I must do whatever it takes to manipulate the situation so that I am not revealed nor harmed. If I am, though, callousness is what's rational. When being jeered or condemned, it is a harsh feeling. I've never had a prison sentence, nor run afoul with the law. But I have been fired, before, or accused of being a heartless jerk. When cover is blown, the natural response is apathy. A psychopath is quick to accept consequences, internally. That is because the rational mind sees the writing on the wall and has already accepted the fate. It is why you see emotionless faces, from a psychopath criminal, when sentenced to life or death. I can empathize with that subtle feeling. It's basically a feeling that the world demands penance and the best way to respond is defiance displayed as apathy; ie "You will not break me". But why not just feel guilty? I cannot, that's why. Honestly, I wouldn't mind if I could feel guilty, as I'm not _proud_ of the fact. But cannot and I don't know how to. The closest I can feel to remorse is regret.


*I cannot relate to the rest of it, only the red, and even for that we probably experience it very differently. For me, when I am distressed I will do everything - including ignoring my own needs and desires to make sure the other person doesn't leave me. Which is obviously bad because at the heart of it, it feels like they don't even care if I am dead or alive, and I am not even allowed to show it or else they leave me. It may make me "manipulative" but in a frenzied, child-like way. It is not sophisticated and cold. 
*


> I am critical of empaths, though. With their wonderful ability to connect and build others up also comes their power to "turn it off" and destroy someone. They do it in the name of morals, but I do not see *how they are better for it. Many people expect others to follow the "rules". They cannot stand the idea that some people do not think the "rules" apply to them.* Reality check, you're not going to be able to call me up to talk to the "path" and rationalize with him. You have to be aware, yourself, because laws might apply to everyone, "social norms" are not followed by everyone. Write a blog, cry to your friends, listen to Def Jam, whatever. It is your fault for being emotional; you suffer, they get revenge. Example: Someone cuts you off in traffic. You speed up and cut them off. Turns out they're a sociopath who responds by running you off the road. They get away, and you're in the hospital. You might demand justice! (Looking at you type 1s ;p) Empaths rally to each other and tell you that the guy is an asshole and going to hell. Yet, are you not accountable for cutting him off back? As I said, I appreciate Empathy and the depth that it provides people in life. I just find it to be highly inconsistent.


*They do not stand it because it's not something to be tolerated. I am all about personal psychological freedom, because I do believe that those who are truly free don't think they have to follow the rules, but that they should.
As for "their fault for being emotional" - if you are comparing psychopathy to a congenital condition, wouldn't that be true for empathy as well? They hardly have a choice. And empathy imo, is not a "fault."
*


> What I fear most about empathy, is it how quick it can shut off. Empathy seeks to emotionally sync with others, which unites people as human. Yet, I have watch countless news stories of someone that was deemed to be unworthy of empathy. Whether it was Ray Rice hitting his wife or the CEO of Mozilla who donated money to Prop 8. The mass of noble empaths decides someone is unworthy of their precious empathy. I'll admit that I am bitter, because of this. Why should I even try to be kind to the very people who are capable of destroying someone's life. In the past, the town could gather to execute someone. It's probably a psychopath, sociopath, or dutiful ISTP  who does the killing, but the crowd watches, flips off their empathy, because someone does not deserve it. I'm not clamoring against the death penalty, but rather I'm pointing out the inconsistency with which people display empathy. The only people I respect, as far as their empathy goes, is the one who empathizes with the unempathizable.


*Drunk Parrot, empathizing "with the unempathizable" almost made me suicidal. I mean, it triggered a bunch of other stuff that contributed too, but it is highly, highly, dangerous to empathize with someone who will not take accountability. I ended up thinking I was at fault for everything, and I was responsible for hurting them very badly, and it ripped me apart. 

That being said, yeah it sounds very awful when most people choose to shun you or even be apathetic about the fact that you exist and that's honestly very psychologically violent thing to do to someone. I admire people who are brave enough to face something like this. I also know for a fact that there are professionals willing to work with the most hated, rejected people in the society - so I do know its possible for these people to be cared for. *

*My comments for the last two are the ones BOLDED in red. 
*


> I have read that a psychopath is incapable of empathy; That is not true. All people are capable of empathy, but they can only feel what they've felt, before. ***Just wanted to remark that this is a very Fi thing to say*** It is why Former alcoholics run AA and rape victims become counselors to other rape victims. Personally, I would like to someday become a therapists for psychopaths and others in Cluster B. In Part II, I mentioned the few deep feelings I've ever experienced. What I value most is to see into someone's soul. This quote is from Ender's Game and is my favorite quote:
> 
> Most emotions that normal people feel seem unnecessary, to me. The depth of feeling that comes from despair or self-actualization, however, is beautiful to me. When a person is broken and full of despair, then empaths can be there to build the person up. But there are moments when a person denies the darkness and clings to the lie of their false ego. The role of psychopathy, the purpose of what I am, is to break the person (Note: I'm not suggesting psychopaths should go out murdering and robbing people). If God exists, then that is why psychopaths exist. Maintaining a wonderful life is not the path to enlightenment. A muscle grows after tearing first. Your soul cannot grow unless it has first been broken.* **Dangerous attitude to have for a psychopath because he does not understand the nuances, the complexities of someone's very soul - their feelings. The way they react to the world around them. People are very sensitive, and no one who is not acquainted well with this should go around "breaking someone." You could make them suicidal. You could traumatize them.***If you have been seriously hurt by a psychopath/sociopath/narcissist, then wrap yourself up in the pain. Contemplate it, brood on it, become it...then release it. Only through real suffering can real joy be experienced. Because, if it isn't real, then I don't care nor respect it.


----------



## Parrot

@Azalea I posted this 9 months ago, originally. A lot of my opinions and perceptions have evolved since then.



> This can be dangerous (psychologically) to others around you.


In regards to being unaware, maybe it is "dangerous", but it doesn't bother me, emotionally. I hope you realize that prematurely condemning cluster B types is also dangerous, and can lead to counter offensive behavior. Treat someone like a monster, don't be surprised if they act like one.



> As for "their fault for being emotional" - if you are comparing psychopathy to a congenital condition, wouldn't that be true for empathy as well? They hardly have a choice. And empathy imo, is not a "fault."


It is congenital, and developing empathy, neurologically, probably is too, in some degree. Which is the problem I have with a lot of empaths who are disgusted to find people don't care like they do, yet ignore the fact that the lack of emotional depth is not a choice.



> Drunk Parrot, empathizing "with the unempathizable" almost made me suicidal.


I realize this which is why I'd say it's better to cognitively empathize, rather than affectively. The emotional demonstration in a psychopath can rapidly change and is often shallow. The mindset, though, is consistent, and "empathizing" with that is more valuable than relating to emotions.



> That being said, yeah it sounds very awful when most people choose to shun you or even be apathetic about the fact that you exist and that's honestly very psychologically violent thing to do to someone. I admire people who are brave enough to face something like this. I also know for a fact that there are professionals willing to work with the most hated, rejected people in the society - so I do know its possible for these people to be cared for.


I get along pretty well in society and I'm not an outcast. People just don't know that I'm different from them.


----------



## Parrot

So I was thinking by to the OP, in regards to my analogy about the color wheel. I think a psychopath experiences the same emotions, but the intensity and duration is significantly less than someone who is neurotypical.

*Rage* vs Annoyance
*Remorse/Guilt* vs Regret
*Sadness* vs Disappointment
*Fear* vs slight nervousness

They often aren't significant enough to be remembered, which is why psychopaths might often describe themselves as unemotional. If anything, feeling regret would be brief and might not actually be recognized. With this in mind, empathy is also impossible, unless the emotional depth is more shallow. That's probably why psychopaths are more glib in their conversations. They see everyone else expressing what they think is light blue, when really it's dark blue. Next thing they know, they're called "fake" or insincere which leads to actual intense emotion solely tied to narcissism.

-Cold anger
-Envy/Jealousy
-Hate

These, and maybe some others, might be the only ones intense enough to be remembered and acted upon.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

I am not trying to be mean or anything, I was genuinely curious: Do you think that being distant from your emotions creates this "seeing light blue where there is dark blue" and the "narcissism" is in response to the acute sense of self-abandonment that comes from ignoring your self?
@Drunk Parrot


----------



## Parrot

Azalea said:


> I am not trying to be mean or anything, I was genuinely curious: Do you think that being distant from your emotions creates this "seeing light blue where there is dark blue" and the "narcissism" is in response to the acute sense of self-abandonment that comes from ignoring your self?
> @Drunk Parrot


No, it's just biological so it's not like I'm ignoring anything or repressing anything. Biological narcissists and psychopaths have a diminished amygdala. So it means that intense emotions, that are rarely felt, are related purely to ego and everything else is lightly felt.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "biological narcissism"?


----------



## Parrot

Azalea said:


> Can you elaborate on what you mean by "biological narcissism"?


Some narcissists and all psychopaths are born that way, where the amygdala is underdeveloped, among other things. Essentially, it's an atypical neurology, as opposed to a "choice" to be that way. Others become narcissistic due to environmental factors. It's the difference between an elitist/biological narcissist and a compensatory narcissist. Same way psychopaths are biological but sociopaths arise from their environment.

My dad is an elitist narcissist. Combine that with ADD factors, and some other traits, I've self-diagnosed as a psychopath.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

But brain develops well into adulthood, so couldn't early life experiences shape biology? A lot of "neuro-divergents" weren't born that way. That's not to say it isn't "had-wired," but...yeah


----------



## Parrot

Azalea said:


> But brain develops well into adulthood, so couldn't early life experiences shape biology? A lot of "neuro-divergents" weren't born that way. That's not to say it isn't "had-wired," but...yeah


I mean, I guess so. At a certain point, there may not be much superficial difference between a psychopath, a sociopath, and a malignant narcissist.


----------



## drmiller100

>>>***I am posting stuff that I am very sensitive about, so please don't be mean. I am not interested in dealing with ableist or hateful statements.**
**
I read your post, and appreciate your time and energy you put into it. Several things you pointed out to me are helpful.


**>>>>First of all, the fear of punishment thing stands out to me. Because empathy is such a complicated but touchy topic no one wants to talk about what is important. There are cluster B PDs, BPD for example - or forget PDs, ANY person who is so paranoid and distrustful of the world he cannot see what the other person's intention is, will act out of fear of punishment. 

Kegan, Piaget, etc. point out a young teen does EVERYTHING for fear of punishment. As we grow and mature, we find other intrinsic means of negative reinforcement. In other words, some of us grow up. The "healthier" and smarter and the better life we have, the faster and deeper we grow. 


>>>>With BPD for example, I read one study where it said that BPD have trouble with cognitive empathy, which is understanding the intention of others, versus emotional empathy, which is feeling what others feel. In fact, they have higher emotional empathy. But because they are unable to reason their way out of the fear inducing circumstance by truly understanding why the other person is behaving that way, they stay stuck in this awful fear loop. 

Fascinating insight into BPD, and I believe you entirely. BPD people Cognitive: no, emotional: Incredible strong. I agree entirely.

>>>People who have been (or just people with prejudice) personally wronged by someone with BPD with wrongly condemn the BPD of being "sociopathic." Which only makes the BPD more distressed, desperate and suicidal. It can, in my experience anyway, be resolved when the person starts to accept themselves. 

For context, my mother is BPD. For me to survive, I had to realize I can't fix her, nor cure her, nor help her. 
However, I have had several friends over the years with BPD. For me, personally, a hard boundary is I will hang out with those with BPD who acknowledge they have BPD. Few can. For me, personally, I think it takes incredible courage and work for someone to grow to the point they can recognize and admit they have BPD, and if they have reached this point, I can sometimes be a good friend to them. 
Like you say, there is a cycle in there with BPD, and I'm not equipped to help someone who hasnt' moved to a higher cycle. Once they are at the higher cycle, they absolutely have good days and bad days, but in general the issues are different.

**>>I really wonder if it comes from, or is followed by, callousness to your emotions. I have found that often the way you treat the world reflects the way you treat yourself.
*
Absolutely. But emotions don't rule me. They empower me when I choose, or they are buried when I want. 

*>>>>I cannot relate to the rest of it, only the red, and even for that we probably experience it very differently. For me, when I am distressed I will do everything - including ignoring my own needs and desires to make sure the other person doesn't leave me. Which is obviously bad because at the heart of it, it feels like they don't even care if I am dead or alive, and I am not even allowed to show it or else they leave me. It may make me "manipulative" but in a frenzied, child-like way. It is not sophisticated and cold. 
*
I have seen this. And calling it what it is, that is codependent tendencies. And, calling it what it is, I have some narcissistic tendencies. A gifted counselor once told me there is a spectrum with codependent on one side, and full blown narcissistic on the other, and a line down the middle. We are all on one side of the line or the other, and the distance from middle is important. We seek and are attracted to someone equidistant from the center on the other side - narcissistist indeed like codependents. 

We can also choose to grow, and work on that, and we can recognize our blind spots, and find better people to hang out with who don't feed our bad traits. 


*>>>And empathy imo, is not a "fault."

Indeed. I'll go one further. Empathy is feeling someone else's emotions. I can love freely, I can love unconditionally. Feeling LOVED is an entirely different monster. I long for it, and those with the loudest emotions I can hear whispers of. 
*

*>>>Drunk Parrot, empathizing "with the unempathizable" almost made me suicidal. I mean, it triggered a bunch of other stuff that contributed too, but it is highly, highly, dangerous to empathize with someone who will not take accountability. I ended up thinking I was at fault for everything, and I was responsible for hurting them very badly, and it ripped me apart. 


That is a bad place. 

>>>>That being said, yeah it sounds very awful when most people choose to shun you or even be apathetic about the fact that you exist and that's honestly very psychologically violent thing to do to someone. I admire people who are brave enough to face something like this.

ahhhh, but do I have feelings? and I am enough of a narcissist I don't care a whole lot whether people shun me. 
*
I have friends who are counselors, or could be, or are deep and rich and giving. They know me well. I asked them, and they told me I do feel deeply, and I do love, and they do feel my love easily. and they hug me, and love me, and sometimes I feel whispers.....
There was a lady last year who's love I felt deeply and openly and without pain. She's not crazy, she's not bpd, and she knows me for what I am. Her love means a lot to me. Come to think of it, she's not particularly empathic either.


----------



## drmiller100

Azalea said:


> But brain develops well into adulthood, so couldn't early life experiences shape biology? A lot of "neuro-divergents" weren't born that way. That's not to say it isn't "had-wired," but...yeah


BPD is thought to be learned behaviors, which is why no meds really help with core issues.


----------



## Parrot

*Sociopaths...*

Sociopaths are hit or miss. First off, most people seem to think of Hannibal Lecter, when they reference a sociopath and combine it with the psychopath. Sociopaths, however, become that way as a result of their environment while psychopaths are born with atypical neurological development. As far as why sociopaths become a sociopath, It's hard to tell for each individual. Often times, they don't even know why they turned out that way. Here's some example of sociopaths I've known or spotted.

-Guy comes up to me in parking lot, starts going into story how he needs money to get his prescription for his inhaler. I actually gave him 5 bucks out of amusement. What annoyed me, though, was afterwards, he asked for a cigarette. Then he asked for another cigarette right afterwards for his friend. I gave him one, but the 2nd was like "No...have a great day". Sociopaths always seem to have an agenda, and in my opinion, they're not too good at hiding the fact. Like, what their agenda is may not be obvious, but their intention to get what they want follows them everywhere.
-This girl I knew in college. Slept with a lot of dudes, including dudes with girlfriends. She technically raped one of my friends. Lots of fun to hang out with, but our friendship was always based on mutual benefits (She comes to our frat's parties, she DD's one night, I buy her alcohol before she was 21). She really was a bitch and so many people hated her. I suppose I would have too if those things bothered me.
-INFP friend, who is actually a sociopath. His anti-social traits is his pathological lying. He does tell the truth, just fine, but if he does lie, he easily does it with a straight face.
-I worked with a guy at Amazon fulfillment center. Horrible attitude everyday, sloppy work ethic, and quick to anger. ESTJ 8w7 whose idea of Te is 'Only do things my way'. He liked me though and came up to me all the time to shoot the shit. As usual, everyone else hated him but me.
-Currently, I work with a sociopath and everyone hates him. I do a kitchen job on weekends and work as a line cook. The sociopath, Jay, is good at what he does and is easy to get along with while we're cooking. But when it's time to close, he becomes a prima donna and is very agitated. Last night, I cut some chicken up and threw the knife in a bus to be taken back to dishes. He needed to cut some food that was ready to be served and asked me where the knife is. I told him it's in the bus and said I just cut raw chicken with it. He rolled his eyes, got the knife out, cut the food, and served it. I may not care if someone got sick, but I do try to be sanitary for the sake of professionalism. I thought to myself 'If I were strongly emotional, I would have blown up on him". When we close, getting him to cooperate and work in tandem in like pulling teeth. 

So recap, one thing I've noticed is psychopaths can often be way more cooperative in a team environment, as they chameleon to their surroundings. Sociopaths, on the other hand, seem to flaunt their anti-social ways, even if it's subtle. Jay is an ISTx, so he's not in your face or anything. But still, in a lot of these cases, everyone hated the sociopaths, but I get along with everyone just fine.


----------



## drmiller100

met a guy over the weekend. he gave me the creeps. like strong. he was running from something, car broke down in front of a place i was staying at. he had a gun on the front seat. 
I helped him fix the car to get him 5 miles down the road....... later saw his car abandoned 6 miles down the road.

he had really bad energy. I wonder who he killed.


----------



## drmiller100

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/arti...y-friends-with-their-exes?utm_source=vicefbus


----------



## Bunny

So, I was watching this show on The Iceman (that Mafia hitman dude) and in one part of the interview he was talking about how he wanted to try out a crossbow.
Since he was looking to find different ways of killing people besides just a gun.
In order to see how well it worked he went up to a guy and popped him in the forehead.
(He was in his car and pulled up to him, pretending he needed directions somewhere.)

The interviewer then asks why he did it, like if he was mad at the guy or if maybe it was a hit.

I was thinking "Lady, he just wanted to see if it worked, there was no other reason behind it."

& After she was finished asking her question, he basically said what I did. He wanted to see if it worked and it did.
He didn't know the guy at all, he just picked him at random.

Any way, I wondered if this is a F vs T thing.

Meaning: Would a Feeler be more inclined to think there had to be another reason behind him killing the guy.
An emotional reason and/or that he had to for his job.


----------



## drmiller100

Wytch said:


> S
> 
> Any way, I wondered if this is a F vs T thing.
> Would a Feeler be more inclined to ask such questions.


Wondering it if would work seems like a T thing.

Wondering how someone feels as they die seems like an F thing. Wondering if you can manipulate someone seems F.


----------



## Bunny

drmiller100 said:


> Wondering it if would work seems like a T thing.
> 
> Wondering how someone feels as they die seems like an F thing. Wondering if you can manipulate someone seems F.


Yes, my bad.
I meant if a Feeler would be asking if there was more of a reason to kill him.
More than just testing out a weapon that is.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

Wytch said:


> I meant if a Feeler would be asking if there was more of a reason to kill him.
> More than just testing out a weapon that is.


I was just thinking about what I would ask him in the interviewers place, since it seems like an exceedingly cruel and wasteful way to try out a crossbow. To be honest I would assume he was a narcissist who wanted to show off his skill like a child, or a man utterly assuming he is above retribution to the extent of delusion. I'd prefer him to give an emotional reason to kill, because otherwise his reality is too chilling.


----------



## Parrot

To Kill for Sport said:


> I was just thinking about what I would ask him in the interviewers place, since it seems like an exceedingly cruel and wasteful way to try out a crossbow. To be honest I would assume he was a narcissist who wanted to show off his skill like a child, or a man utterly assuming he is above retribution to the extent of delusion. I'd prefer him to give an emotional reason to kill, because otherwise his reality is too chilling.


I agree, his answer wasn't sufficient. There's plenty of ways to test it out without a live subject. Nah, he just wanted *To Kill for Sport* :tongue:


----------



## Bunny

To Kill for Sport said:


> I was just thinking about what I would ask him in the interviewers place, since it seems like an exceedingly cruel and wasteful way to try out a crossbow. To be honest I would assume he was a narcissist who wanted to show off his skill like a child, or a man utterly assuming he is above retribution to the extent of delusion. I'd prefer him to give an emotional reason to kill, because otherwise his reality is too chilling.


Well, he obviously had some problems and he admits to that himself.

Giving someone an "emotional reason" to kill is just a way to make others feel better about it. imo.
Like - "He killed that guy with a crossbow because he looked like his Dad and he hated his Dad."
Somehow it's an excuse that people can accept easier. If there was a more meaningful/deeper reason behind the kill.
It's just not always the case.

He could have also been lying, who knows but either way.
I don't see why there _has_ to be such a reason for it.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

Drunk Parrot said:


> I agree, his answer wasn't sufficient. There's plenty of ways to test it out without a live subject. Nah, he just wanted *To Kill for Sport* :tongue:


Oh you cheeky Parrot, wot are you like!

or maybe he was really drunk and too embarrassed to say it.

"nah mate I'm such a stone killa"

Wot a little diva, Ice Man was putting more then bodies on dat Ice :wink:

Also just to save space @Wytch , I don't think you need an emotional or any other kind of reason to kill someone. But to me the prospect that someone might randomly kill me is scary because I've got stuff to do and I don't believe in an afterlife. I don't think that's a feeling thing as much as a survival thing.


----------



## Parrot

To Kill for Sport said:


> Oh you cheeky Parrot, wot are you like!
> 
> or maybe he was really drunk and too embarrassed to say it.
> 
> "nah mate I'm such a stone killa"
> 
> Wot a little diva, Ice Man was putting more then bodies on dat Ice :wink:
> 
> Also just to save space @Wytch , I don't think you need an emotional or any other kind of reason to kill someone. But to me the prospect that someone might randomly kill me is scary because I've got stuff to do and I don't believe in an afterlife. I don't think that's a feeling thing as much as a survival thing.


I'm just saying the real answer is not he wanted to test it out, but that he thought it'd be *fun* to test it out. It would be illogical to risk getting caught if he wasn't doing it for the thrill. Psychopaths might forget that feeling, though, so looking back, it just seems like he did it to test it out, rather than a way to do it with pleasure, as well.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

@Drunk Parrot Yeah probs, but to do something for fun is different from doing it for nothing. I'd say that would be an emotional reason to do something, but I feel like this context could probably be found in his interview in how he said this. He wouldn't be sadistic it would be something more simple and assumed in his tone I suppose.

Also even if he was doing it for fun wouldn't he have found a smarter way to do it? Or have some sort of coping mechanism...just seems really sloppy.

Hhmmm...there's so much anarchy it makes me wonder if order is even worth the effort we all put into it.

@Wytch BTW depending how much your into witches and mildy erotic animation you might enjoy a really beautiful film named "Belladonna of Sadness".


----------



## Parrot

To Kill for Sport said:


> @Drunk Parrot Yeah probs, but to do something for fun is different from doing it for nothing. I'd say that would be an emotional reason to do something, but I feel like this context could probably be found in his interview in how he said this. He wouldn't be sadistic it would be something more simple and assumed in his tone I suppose.
> 
> Also even if he was doing it for fun wouldn't he have found a smarter way to do it? Or have some sort of coping mechanism...just seems really sloppy.
> 
> Hhmmm...there's so much anarchy it makes me wonder if order is even worth the effort we all put into it.


It doesn't have to be sadistic. People hunt deer for fun, but not to see an animal die. Same way he could have thought it was fun to fire a crossbow into someone's skull, while not necessarily doing it to enjoy the death. Rather, the death was a byproduct of taking the shot.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

Drunk Parrot said:


> It doesn't have to be sadistic.


Oh opps that was just me imaging how he would say he was testing his crossbow, what tone the would use. I continue in that sentence to disagree with myself...also in my timezone its quite a bit past bedtime. 

But this is hard without he original interview to examine, and I'm to lazy to look it up.


----------



## Parrot

At around 5:30, you can actually see pain in his eyes as he knows what the psychologist says is true.

Only lasted for a moment, though

Around 9:00 "Because there is no love in my life, I must replace it with hate, constant hate"

@To Kill for Sport there we are, his reason for killing was a way to unleash the hatred he had for humanity, in general.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

@Drunk Parrot Yep seems so according to this quote from wikipedia 

"The killing for me was secondary. I got no rise as such out of it…for the most part. But the figuring it out, the challenge—the stalking and doing it right, successfully—that excited me a lot. The greater the odds against me, the more juice I got out of it."

As well as to practice and perfect murder, so I guess to hone his art. But that kill still seems sloppy from what I've read on him...no planning, nor preparation. I get it was probs just from excitement an for a short satisfaction. OVER and OUT


----------



## Parrot

To Kill for Sport said:


> @Drunk Parrot Yep seems so according to this quote from wikipedia
> 
> "The killing for me was secondary. I got no rise as such out of it…for the most part. But the figuring it out, the challenge—the stalking and doing it right, successfully—that excited me a lot. The greater the odds against me, the more juice I got out of it."
> 
> As well as to practice and perfect murder, so I guess to hone his art. But that kill still seems sloppy from what I've read on him...no planning, nor preparation. I get it was probs just from excitement an for a short satisfaction. OVER and OUT


The diagnosis is interesting. For me, I read it more as he was born a psychopath and his upbringing caused him to have a narc complex. In the full interview, he talks about how easily agitated he'd get when people offended him.


----------



## Bunny

Drunk Parrot said:


> The diagnosis is interesting. For me, I read it more as he was born a psychopath and his upbringing caused him to have a narc complex. In the full interview, he talks about how easily agitated he'd get when people offended him.


That is the conclusion I came to as well after watching an interview on him.
It was different than the one you posted, I may watch that one too.

He had friends but he ended up killing them all in the end for some reason or another.

His best friend threatened him once and he actually let it go because he trusted the guy.
He figured he was just upset and later he asked him if he was being serious.
(His friend basically threatened to hurt his family if he told on him for the crimes he'd committed.)
This friend told him he was serious about hurting them and that is how he ended up dead.

He didn't like loud people at all. Anyone who reminded him of his Father.
One guy borrowed money from him and never paid him back so he killed him.

The way he talks about it all is very matter-of-fact.

I'm not sure if this is still true but at the time of the interview his brother was actually staying in the same prison as him.



To Kill For Sport said:


> @Wytch BTW depending how much your into witches and mildy erotic animation you might enjoy a really beautiful film named "Belladonna of Sadness".


Thanks  I am into them quite a bit. I'll have to see this film.


I don't think the crossbow incident was sloppy per se. 
I mean I'm sure much of it was for the challenge but if you think about it.
The best way to test out a new weapon for killing someone, is to kill someone.
Not everyone is going to go this length obviously but it would be the surest way to see how it works on a person.
:shrugs:


----------



## Parrot

Wytch said:


> That is the conclusion I came to as well after watching an interview on him.
> It was different than the one you posted, I may watch that one too.
> 
> He had friends but he ended up killing them all in the end for some reason or another.
> 
> His best friend threatened him once and he actually let it go because he trusted the guy.
> He figured he was just upset and later he asked him if he was being serious.
> (His friend basically threatened to hurt his family if he told on him for the crimes he'd committed.)
> This friend told him he was serious about hurting them and that is how he ended up dead.
> 
> He didn't like loud people at all. Anyone who reminded him of his Father.
> One guy borrowed money from him and never paid him back so he killed him.
> 
> The way he talks about it all is very matter-of-fact.


I'd say he made some of the stuff up, for attention


----------



## Bunny

Drunk Parrot said:


> I'd say he made some of the stuff up, for attention


I wouldn't put it past him for sure.
Just to make himself look better.

Some of the killings that they suspect he's done, he won't fully admit to. Just hints around at it.
I'm sure he wants the credit/fame for it even if he didn't actually do it.


----------



## Parrot

Wytch said:


> I wouldn't put it past him for sure.
> Just to make himself look better.
> 
> Some of the killings that they suspect he's done, he won't fully admit to. Just hints around at it.
> I'm sure he wants the credit/fame for it even if he didn't actually do it.


He talked about how he executed someone by having rats eat the person. He said he did that a few times but it made him uncomfortable. He looked like he was lying a little. I bet he started to do that, once, and then killed the person because of how nauseating it'd be. Especially since he's doing a contract killing and wouldn't actually hate the person he's killing, the live rat torture would just be unnecessary. Shotgun to the face is the politest way to do things.


----------



## Bunny

Drunk Parrot said:


> He talked about how he executed someone by having rats eat the person. He said he did that a few times but it made him uncomfortable. He looked like he was lying a little. I bet he started to do that, once, and then killed the person because of how nauseating it'd be. Especially since he's doing a contract killing and wouldn't actually hate the person he's killing, the live rat torture would just be unnecessary. Shotgun to the face is the politest way to do things.


That could be more likely. :nods:
I mean even putting aside how it would look. I imagine that it would take a long time for someone to die that way.
With contract killing, he would probably try an be the most efficient, I'd think?
Unless by some form of events he knew the guy he was suppose to kill and hated him but... still.
That was his job and all so, an impersonal shotgun makes more sense. Cleaner too.


----------



## Parrot

Wytch said:


> That could be more likely. :nods:
> I mean even putting aside how it would look. I imagine that it would take a long time for someone to die that way.
> With contract killing, he would probably try an be the most efficient, I'd think?
> Unless by some form of events he knew the guy he was suppose to kill and hated him but... still.
> That was his job and all so, an impersonal shotgun makes more sense. Cleaner too.


Well he said that part of the contract was to make them suffer. Either way, he clearly was a special case of psycho. Constant abuse growing up turns a regular psycho into an ice cold rage machine psycho.


----------



## Bunny

Drunk Parrot said:


> Well he said that part of the contract was to make them suffer. Either way, he clearly was a special case of psycho. Constant abuse growing up turns a regular psycho into an ice cold rage machine psycho.


Oh I see, I didn't know that part about 'making them suffer'.
That would definitely be one sure way to torture someone before death.
As to whether he actually did it :shrugs:.

Yes, definitely.
It was like a made breeding ground for a professional killer.

I wonder what his brother was seeing as they grew up in the same house and both have killed.
I barely know anything of his brother except that he went to prison as well for murder (but in a much different fashion).
& He also got caught right away and confessed.


----------



## Parrot

Wytch said:


> Oh I see, I didn't know that part about 'making them suffer'.
> That would definitely be one sure way to torture someone before death.
> As to whether he actually did it :shrugs:.
> 
> Yes, definitely.
> It was like a made breeding ground for a professional killer.
> 
> I wonder what his brother was seeing as they grew up in the same house and both have killed.
> I barely know anything of his brother except that he went to prison as well for murder (but in a much different fashion).
> & He also got caught right away and confessed.


I think the guy was a loser. Sad childhood, but pathetic ego.


----------



## Ride

This was a very interesting thread! Very fascinating!

So I did the test just to see what I get and it's aight 

Your score from primary psychopathy has been calculated as 2.4. Primary psychopathy is the affective aspects of psychopathy; a lack of empathy for other people and tolerance for antisocial orientations.

Your score from secondary psychopathy has been calculated as 2.9. Secondary psychopathy is the antisocial aspects of psychopathy; rule breaking and a lack of effort towards socially rewarded behavior.

With two scores, results of the LSRP are very suitable for being plotted. Below is the distribution of how other people who have taken this test have scored.


You score for primary psychopathy was higher than 62.34% of people who have taken this test.

You score for secondary psychopathy was higher than 67.52% of people who have taken this test.


----------



## Bunny

Drunk Parrot said:


> I think the guy was a loser. Sad childhood, but pathetic ego.


So, just simply a product of his childhood?


----------



## Parrot

Wytch said:


> So, just simply a product of his childhood?


Well yes & no. There's still an aspect of free will. Perhaps being a mafia hitman was a likely career path, but he talks about murdering just because someone looked at him wrong. IDK, though, how it happens but he had a really fragile ego. Someone on one of the videos typed him as ENTJ 8w9. I think he was more ISTP 6w5, CP 6 to be exact.


----------



## Bunny

Drunk Parrot said:


> Well yes & no. There's still an aspect of free will. Perhaps being a mafia hitman was a likely career path, but he talks about murdering just because someone looked at him wrong. IDK, though, how it happens but he had a really fragile ego. Someone on one of the videos typed him as ENTJ 8w9. I think he was more ISTP 6w5, CP 6 to be exact.


I see, I understand now.

He doesn't seem like a Te user, especially not a dominant one.
Like with the way he kept on wanting to try out new killing methods and weapons.
He literally seemed like he enjoyed working out the mechanics of it all.
That appears Ti.
Also, I would think if he was an ENTJ he would care about being more than a hitman.
ISTPs don't really care about climbing the ladder as much or status.
(This is generalising of course.)
Fe is commonly more dramatic too.

You know I've actually read that some unhealthy CP 6s can be mistaken for 8s.
So, that's interesting.

I would say sp/so as well.


----------



## Parrot

Not sure if I posted this one, before.






It's interesting the candor he speaks with.


----------



## Parrot

Also, Ed Kemper is quite interesting. Sad about his BPD mother and the abuse he suffered. Strikes me as an ENTP type 5, as well....Maybe INTP, but I hear some Fe rationality and Ne curiosity.










https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Kemper

Was diagnosed as schizophrenic, too, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was wrong at the time


----------



## Clayfighter

Hey @Drunk Parrot I was interested to see you write all this out. I have actually come to terms with the fact that I am a psychopath as well, only recently.... within the past month or so..... as well Ive been denying it for a while, and would even pretend or fake negative emotional experiences such as depression or anxiety just to relate to other vulnerable people and appear normal. But the truth is Im largely unaffected by any of it, although I do believe a lot of your points about empathy and whatnot. Ive found its lack of ability to recognize the emotional stimuli a lot of the time(not paying attention to allow the feeling to surface). and ive been in the presence of close family or friends attempting suicide and I showed no emotional response, despite the fact that I stopped them. Only emotion I exhibited was anger that they were behaving that way.

I can break down and cry in front of someone to put on a show, but I feel nothing while doing it.

I also have come to realize that I mindfucked and manipulated everyone for the past 25 and a half years of my life.(not including infancy hehe)

Not only that but my speech has all the psychopathy "tells" from videos I made going from now and dating back to teenage years, and possibly earlier, Its cool to see you come out and explain yourself on here. We're a type of people that are largely misunderstood. It was chilling to watch my old videos as I never realized how I spoke.

edit: When I was less than a year old I almost died and needed surgery, so im thinking that might have triggered lack of empathy, either that or I was born that way. When I ended up going to school, fights insults anything of the like did not ever hurt me(I was good at playing the victim though), so im inclined to believe something was messed up early on.


----------



## Clayfighter

Oh and one other thing...While I recognize psychopathy as a spectrum, I wont claim to know where you are on it, from my standpoint its something thats difficult to pinpoint for most people, but I seem to be the typical standard view of one. I cant really say I differ much. No clue what its like in other peoples shoes so I wont claim to know.


Edit: I want to address the point quoted about fear of punishement or guilt/shame and the woman in the alley. Im not tempted by sex because im unable to experience the emotional high of sex or relate to the other person. So the act in and of itself is kind of flat for me....you get off then its over....big deal

Its the one thing im not controlled by my impulses, but I dont experience learning from any form of punishment at all. When I was a kid I laughed when I had the belt taken to me.

I can however maintain a rational construct and reason why I wouldnt want to go to jail. But fearing anything? I dont even fear my own death. Id jump of the side of a bridge for fun. and I have before.(it wasnt a major height, but you get the point)


----------



## Parrot

Blind Traveler said:


> Hey @Drunk Parrot I was interested to see you write all this out. I have actually come to terms with the fact that I am a psychopath as well, only recently.... within the past month or so..... as well Ive been denying it for a while, and would even pretend or fake negative emotional experiences such as depression or anxiety just to relate to other vulnerable people and appear normal. But the truth is Im largely unaffected by any of it, although I do believe a lot of your points about empathy and whatnot. Ive found its lack of ability to recognize the emotional stimuli a lot of the time(not paying attention to allow the feeling to surface). and ive been in the presence of close family or friends attempting suicide and I showed no emotional response, despite the fact that I stopped them. Only emotion I exhibited was anger that they were behaving that way.
> 
> I can break down and cry in front of someone to put on a show, but I feel nothing while doing it.
> 
> I also have come to realize that I mindfucked and manipulated everyone for the past 25 and a half years of my life.(not including infancy hehe)
> 
> Not only that but my speech has all the psychopathy "tells" from videos I made going from now and dating back to teenage years, and possibly earlier, Its cool to see you come out and explain yourself on here. We're a type of people that are largely misunderstood. It was chilling to watch my old videos as I never realized how I spoke.
> 
> edit: When I was less than a year old I almost died and needed surgery, so im thinking that might have triggered lack of empathy, either that or I was born that way. When I ended up going to school, fights insults anything of the like did not ever hurt me(I was good at playing the victim though), so im inclined to believe something was messed up early on.


Hey BT, thanks for sharing. Were you raised in a non-abusive home?

Interesting, too, about not pleasure from sex, do you get any sexual pleasure? Do you think you could have other conditions like Schizoid?


----------



## Clayfighter

@Drunk Parrot No I can get lots of sexual pleasure, its just a crap shoot. and I can act really extroverted-like at times. But I mostly dislike others. I dont view Schizoid as anything real to me. but you could say some traits are there.

I think it is a primary type 1 im classified as for psychopathy? But I cant remember. Ive done various criminal activities in my younger years but now im mostly high functioning. The only reason I dont actively break the law is from an intellectual construct of reason. However I do get tempted to act on situations that present themselves to me and since I have learned over the years that certain causes produce certain results, my mind has naturally learned to use everyone around me like a sockpuppet. Because I have no empathy I just simply behave in whatever way comes out of my head and mouth, and that is almost always somehting which produces a favorable outcome for me.

Higher end spectrum psychopaths have nearly no control over their manipulative processes. We just learn what benefits us. We cannot actively filter out behavior because half the time we dont even know how our behavior is beneficial. Real fullblown psychopathy is very scary for the people around you. its no joke.

Another thing I do is always get names wrong so I try to refrain from using peoples names when addressing them, I keep calling a sister by the other sisters name and so on and so forth. Its not by choice, I just see no difference in them as people. Most people think Im a piece of shit, but I cant help it half the time.


Also to answer about the abuse. No my home was not abusive, I dont want to state the circumstance of my family and genes possibly inherited for their sake not mine on security....but Besides the instance before 1 yr old. I was a nonsocial child in school who was repeatedly attacked for being different. As early as 1st grade I had to deal with being thrown onto the pavement and punched everyday. I also would get punched just for picking something up for someone. Like a hacky sack that got kicked my way.

When a girl saw that happen she said OH NO ARE YOU OK? I looked at her and smiled. Hahaa you didnt think that would actually hurt me did you? I have a pain tolerance so high most people probably wouldnt believe it. I often cut and burn myself without noticing. Im assuming I creeped out the girls too. except for a few that seemed to be into that weird shit.

my intelligence was that of a middle schooler, in elementary school, so I viewed everyone as inferior. I could read a novel and none of them could read a picture book properly. And English is my worst subject.


----------



## Parrot

Blind Traveler said:


> @Drunk Parrot No I can get lots of sexual pleasure, its just a crap shoot. and I can act really extroverted-like at times. But I mostly dislike others. I dont view Schizoid as anything real to me. but you could say some traits are there.
> 
> I think it is a primary type 1 im classified as for psychopathy? But I cant remember. Ive done various criminal activities in my younger years but now im mostly high functioning. The only reason I dont actively break the law is from an intellectual construct of reason. However I do get tempted to act on situations that present themselves to me and since I have learned over the years that certain causes produce certain results, my mind has naturally learned to use everyone around me like a sockpuppet. Because I have no empathy I just simply behave in whatever way comes out of my head and mouth, and that is almost always somehting which produces a favorable outcome for me.
> 
> Higher end spectrum psychopaths have nearly no control over their manipulative processes. We just learn what benefits us. We cannot actively filter out behavior because half the time we dont even know how our behavior is beneficial. Real fullblown psychopathy is very scary for the people around you. its no joke.
> 
> Another thing I do is always get names wrong so I try to refrain from using peoples names when addressing them, I keep calling a sister by the other sisters name and so on and so forth. Its not by choice, I just see no difference in them as people. Most people think Im a piece of shit, but I cant help it half the time.


An INTJ 7w8 Psychopath, btw, interesting. No sarcasm, you really are a special snowflake haha.

I understand you're in that contemplative phase, where you're trying to make sense of yourself. You might be surprised to realize you're not as shallow as you think, but still have shallow affect. Sure, everything is manipulative because nothing is said with conviction. However, for me, that doesn't mean I'm actively not telling the truth. I actually tell the truth, most of the time, but it still usually feels like I have to manipulate for people to believe me. I guess that's so when I lie, it's more believable.

I don't understand the names thing. I always call people by their correct name.


----------



## Clayfighter

@Drunk Parrot Its because I have such little empathy for them my mind doesnt even sort it in the right schema. I dont care enough to categorize the information properly in my head. Its another tell for high-end psychopaths...at least im pretty sure it is, because I should know their name and I do, but if I dont think about it, it always comes out wrong.

also I edited that post to answer your question about the abuse.

another example of the name thing. When I was typing your name in the mention @ part of my post, I typed blind parrot first. Its weird, I do stuff like that on accident because Other people are extensions of myself I think, not separate entities. at least thats why I think I do that. Because its always a slap to the face when I do it.


----------



## Parrot

Blind Traveler said:


> *Also to answer about the abuse. No my home was not abusive, I dont want to state the circumstance of my family and genes possibly inherited for their sake not mine on security*


Why can't you speculate? My dad is a narcissist, my granddad had some traits, and that's where I inherited that aspect from.



> ....but Besides the instance before 1 yr old. I was a nonsocial child in school who was repeatedly attacked for being different. As early as 1st grade I had to deal with being thrown onto the pavement and punched everyday. I also would get punched just for picking something up for someone. Like a hacky sack that got kicked my way.


Wow, that's crazy.



> When a girl saw that happen she said OH NO ARE YOU OK? I looked at her and smiled. Hahaa you didnt think that would actually hurt me did you? I have a pain tolerance so high most people probably wouldnt believe it. I often cut and burn myself without noticing. Im assuming I creeped out the girls too. except for a few that seemed to be into that weird shit.


Yeah, creeping out women until you get older and you finally learn how to talk to them; sounds about right haha



> my intelligence was that of a middle schooler, in elementary school, so I viewed everyone as inferior. I could read a novel and none of them could read a picture book properly. And English is my worst subject.


Did you like school?


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Seeing people as extensions of oneself is a classic trait of narcissism.


----------



## Parrot

Blind Traveler said:


> @Drunk Parrot Its because I have such little empathy for them my mind doesnt even sort it in the right schema. I dont care enough to categorize the information properly in my head. Its another tell for high-end psychopaths...at least im pretty sure it is, because I should know their name and I do, but if I dont think about it, it always comes out wrong.
> 
> also I edited that post to answer your question about the abuse.
> 
> another example of the name thing. When I was typing your name in the mention @ part of my post, I typed blind parrot first. Its weird, I do stuff like that on accident because Other people are extensions of myself I think, not separate entities. at least thats why I think I do that. Because its always a slap to the face when I do it.


I have no clue why you can't remember names haha. I like getting along with people and want them to like me. Remembering their name is 101 on winning people over. 

As far as the extensions, it's both. You can intellectually recognize others as separate, but only think about them if they're right in front of you. I might live like I'm the center of the universe, but I know better than to actually believe it.



Occams Chainsaw said:


> Seeing people as extensions of oneself is a classic trait of narcissism.


See what I wrote above. I suppose a psychopath might believe others are just extensions.


----------



## Clayfighter

Drunk Parrot said:


> Why can't you speculate? My dad is a narcissist, my granddad had some traits, and that's where I inherited that aspect from.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, that's crazy.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, creeping out women until you get older and you finally learn how to talk to them; sounds about right haha
> 
> 
> 
> Did you like school?


School was boring, I never did homework aced tests never studied got As and B's on all the senior finals ended up with a b- average probably from not doing homework and even one final I skipped.

I enjoyed dodgeball, and the few times I went fight or flight and beat the fuck out of some people. As far as family is concerned, Im not publicly posting anything since after a day I have no control over its deletion if it were necessary. Its a power and vulnerability thing.

While I dont have empathy for my family I love them as extensions of me concerning dna and relation. cant explain it. Basically if anything happens to them, it better be my fault and not anyone elses or theyre dead.

its also like cognitive empathy. I have cognitive respect for certain people in my family and im not going to go labeling them. When I cant say I know for sure.

Its not "Hot" respect, its just "cold"


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Drunk Parrot said:


> See what I wrote above. I suppose a psychopath might believe others are just extensions.


Nah, the pathology of narcissism is that which blends the lines between themselves and others and it allows, for instance, a narcissistic parent to take credit for their child's achievements. Their child is a reflection/extension of them. The narcissist can take credit for 'group' achievements by membership alone, etc. Narcissistic relationships tend to evolve into Fusion Delusion which is an obliterating of autonomy in somebody partnered with a narcissist. They literally become an extension of them, slave to the narc supply. If you fuel it (or are 'useful' as most narcs say) you may as well be a part of them, if you don't, you may as well not exist at all.

Antisocials have an object-relationship with other people in relationships. I described how it works before in the thread with how we can actually perceive their wants as pretty normal but because there is an egocentric focus it becomes depersonalised and even cold/calculating in nature. There tend to always be discrete lines drawn between people and themselves.

I think this is seen quite nicely when we compare 'the world revolves around me' vs 'it's a dog-eat-dog world' in NPD and AsPD respectively.


----------



## Clayfighter

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Seeing people as extensions of oneself is a classic trait of narcissism.


No its a classic trait of egocentrism, you experience this after you're born when your brain schema is not properly ordered. Mine just never organized.

I can assure you it might be shared, but it doesnt stem from that.

its not about getting credit, I dont actually care about credit, I care about what they give me and what they represent.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Blind Traveler said:


> No its a classic trait of egocentrism.


Can you source your rebuttal? I'm quite sure.


----------



## Clayfighter

You must understand that lack of empathy in all dark personalities produces some shard similarities. They are not the same though. For example. I will realize my faults and inferiority in some circumstances and it doesnt bother me when I do so if its in my best interest. Does this mean I have NPD still, no. But could I be narcisssistic in the psychopathic sense where I have a large sense of self-worth. Yes.

There is a difference.


----------



## Clayfighter

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Can you source your rebuttal? I'm quite sure.


heres one

Egocentrism | Education.com

its something I was born with.


----------



## Parrot

Blind Traveler said:


> I know what I did, but I wasnt flirting, I was intentionally trying to be weird. It was funny to me. Make people uncomfortable. I had no intention of talking to that person. beyond being silly.


But could you see, from my point of view, that I just assumed you were a regular guy hitting on a girl?


----------



## Clayfighter

Drunk Parrot said:


> But could you see, from my point of view, that I just assumed you were a regular guy hitting on a girl?


I can, but it largely uninterests me, to the point I wonder what the point is to this conversation or even repeating and explaining what happened when I basically stated I had the memory firmly within my head, and I definitely didn't or even need to click that link to remember it as I already had. 

But yes I know what I did, A funny display of flirtation, something I almost never do, or waste time doing. Any other charm I give to people is often because they're so insecure I have to talk them back up from any possible thing I might've said in dialogue. Unfortunately this produces a rollercoaster of up and down emotions, and some women get addicted to that shit. So its not unusual for me to accidentally acquire people who chase or follow me to an extent.


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

Occams Chainsaw said:


> I have a debilitating nothing but those things I need to get myself out are ridiculous. In that same convo, she told me that it isn't so bad and I've controlled myself well but at that point it was enough. Just laughed in her face. If only she knew. Lol I had a fantasy about just laying it all out on the table. Maybe she already has guesses. Certainly, knowing what my pathology is, she probably expects the worst, but to have me just spit it all out and watch her reaction would be satisfying. Just at the bursting point now. Wonder if she can tell.


What things do you need?

And what do you mean by worst?


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Earthious said:


> What things do you need?
> 
> And what do you mean by worst?


Tacos, pizza, bagels , a man that loves and cares for me, somewhere to call my own - same as everybody else 

That I might be an INTP.


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Tacos, pizza, bagels , a man that loves and cares for me, somewhere to call my own - same as everybody else
> 
> That I might be an INTP.


😛

Can you imagine a world where tacos were the main stimulant for Psychopaths? Those poor, poor Mexican shop owners. However the imagine of this is ridiculous to have in the first place.

If that's your worst, it may not be so bad after all ^_^


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

I had a dream about psychopaths last night. Was pretty good.


----------



## Clayfighter

Earthious said:


> &#55357;&#56859;
> 
> Can you imagine a world where tacos were the main stimulant for Psychopaths?


Thats the way the world already is.


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

Blind Traveler said:


> Thats the way the world already is.


Well, lucky for you, I have decided to pursue a food free diet, so there should be plenty of excess


----------



## Clayfighter

Read this today, thought it was really funny. Mainly because the conclusions missed the point entirely, people are so interested in knowing whether or not a psychopath can care, that they miss the point to why they do the things they do in the first place.

The point and the conclusion to the study should have been that if showing we care leads to significantly greater possibility of gain, and if serving our own self-interests produce a guaranteed lose-lose scenario. We show that we care. The only relevant point to a team identity here is that we know how others will act in a group, so we do what we have to do.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201305/despite-popular-opinion-psychopaths-can-show-they-care


----------



## Clayfighter

Earthious said:


> Well, lucky for you, I have decided to pursue a food free diet, so there should be plenty of excess


lol, I can eat a taco even if I feel sick. It is strange even to me. I can always eat them.


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

Blind Traveler said:


> lol, I can eat a taco even if I feel sick. It is strange even to me. I can always eat them.


I've eaten a form of tacos everyday for a period of my life simply because it was the most optimal option. Sprinkle pizza in there as well.


----------



## Parrot

Earthious said:


> &#55357;&#56859;
> 
> Can you imagine a world where tacos were the main stimulant for Psychopaths?





Blind Traveler said:


> Thats the way the world already is.





Earthious said:


> I've eaten a form of tacos everyday for a period of my life simply because it was the most optimal option. Sprinkle pizza in there as well.


Earthious is a psychopath! :shocked:


----------



## Clayfighter

Drunk Parrot said:


> Earthious is a psychopath! :shocked:


well theres only one way to find out. We need to ask her what her monopoly stats are.

Psychopaths will always have a better win-lose ratio in my opinion :angry:


----------



## Parrot

Blind Traveler said:


> well theres only one way to find out. We need to ask her what her monopoly stats are.
> 
> Psychopaths will always have a better win-lose ratio in my opinion :angry:


I lack the attention span and interest to play a game :crazy:


----------



## Clayfighter

Drunk Parrot said:


> I lack the attention span and interest to play a game :crazy:


but its monopoly.....

Edit: oh by the way I dont pay attention to the game really either. I roll dice while talking to people. Thats all it is. xD


----------



## Clayfighter

I'm curious as to what other people will say to these questions. Give it your best shot.


Can a psychopath feel empathy for another psychopath if empathy is just feeling what the other person does? Theoretically wouldnt we be able to understand know and feel since we are that way? Or would we just not have the attention to care or feel it?

Do psychopaths lie so much because they think about the correct answer to a situation which is considered the truth? Does truth=correct or right answer to the situation? Is it in terms of defining win=goal.

I am trying to achieve X goal therefore action Y is truth because it leads to a win they are a necessary part to cause and effect or an equation.

Action + Truth(Z) ----> Goal(x)
Truth=whats necessary
Whats necessary=what is correct
Action=means to an end
Truth=No value when assigned to our identities consistency only when assigned to the circumstances, also can be assigned to defining ontology of something which bears no causal relation to any circumstance.

In other words, lies continue to be used because they are not lies, they are the correct response, we dont necessarily pay attention to the identity of ourselves and whether or not it is accurate or consistent with the correct response.

Is that why we're so convincing? We believe it is true because the context is different? Is this where the superficial charm came to be a part of Hares checklist?

Im beginning to believe an old friend of mine was a psychopath because he could admit that his lies were not consistent with himself, but he refused to admit they were lies and said he always told the truth. Do you think all of us do that? I know I have thought this way my whole life.




I dont think there is anything human about our perspective. When I read something about psychopaths being genderless once, I tended to agree with it, the only purpose I label myself male is because it is due to what sex organs I have. Edit: (agreed with genderless only in the sense of being under the subcategory human)

Do psychopaths view males and females as being equally alien to themselves?


----------



## Clayfighter

Also a followup thought that I think is extremely interesting and I want to see what other people think.

I still have trouble identifying myself as anything, even a psychopath because my identity seems to change depending on the circumstances. But when I come back to the topic of psychopaths I instantly know and assume I am one.

I have assumed and said I had every personality and mood disorder in the world at one point, but only because I was around someone that had the disorder and I was making them feel they could relate to me, or I used the disorder as an excuse to produce a consequence. I never actually believed I was that way.

In this way I almost feel the psychopath label is pointless to assign to myself, but at the same time I find it useful in being self-aware.

EDIT: I believe that being a psychopath (an actual fullblown psychopath) means that you are aware of not having an identity in relation to the universe. You know that you are just physical material in motion.


----------



## Parrot

Blind Traveler said:


> I'm curious as to what other people will say to these questions. Give it your best shot.
> 
> 
> Can a psychopath feel empathy for another psychopath if empathy is just feeling what the other person does? Theoretically wouldnt we be able to understand know and feel since we are that way? Or would we just not have the attention to care or feel it?
> 
> Do psychopaths lie so much because they think about the correct answer to a situation which is considered the truth? Does truth=correct or right answer to the situation? Is it in terms of defining win=goal.
> 
> I am trying to achieve X goal therefore action Y is truth because it leads to a win they are a necessary part to cause and effect or an equation.
> 
> Action + Truth(Z) ----> Goal(x)
> Truth=whats necessary
> Whats necessary=what is correct
> Action=means to an end
> Truth=No value when assigned to our identities consistency only when assigned to the circumstances, also can be assigned to defining ontology of something which bears no causal relation to any circumstance.
> 
> In other words, lies continue to be used because they are not lies, they are the correct response, we dont necessarily pay attention to the identity of ourselves and whether or not it is accurate or consistent with the correct response.
> 
> Is that why we're so convincing? We believe it is true because the context is different? Is this where the superficial charm came to be a part of Hares checklist?
> 
> Im beginning to believe an old friend of mine was a psychopath because he could admit that his lies were not consistent with himself, but he refused to admit they were lies and said he always told the truth. Do you think all of us do that? I know I have thought this way my whole life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I dont think there is anything human about our perspective. When I read something about psychopaths being genderless once, I tended to agree with it, the only purpose I label myself male is because it is due to what sex organs I have.
> 
> Do psychopaths view males and females as being equally alien to themselves?


Yeah, I can definitely feel empathy towards another psychopath. I find it's actually more natural to do so. Regular people, and their crazy emotions, though, I cannot relate. But apparently I can to serial killers haha.

I just see lying as a tool to use when necessary. Sometimes I do it unnecessary, but I try to avoid being pathological about it. I'm more likely to user half-truths as I argue my point and manipulate a conversation. But still, it's better to tell the truth because it's less to remember.

I'm a male and do not consider myself genderless. Other people are alien, somewhat, because of reasons that have nothing to do with gender.


----------



## Clayfighter

Drunk Parrot said:


> I'm a male and do not consider myself genderless. Other people are alien, somewhat, because of reasons that have nothing to do with gender.


I meant in terms of the fact that your gender is almost that of another species gender, my bad I used wrong wording. I edited my post to refer to the category and subtype


----------



## Bunny

Earthious said:


> I've eaten a form of tacos everyday for a period of my life simply because it was the most optimal option. Sprinkle pizza in there as well.


That made me think of taco pizza ^^ yum.


----------



## Clayfighter

Ill just say I agree with @Drunk Parrot as well

Psychopaths all across the spectrum can understand the concept of friendship and helping people and why someone would want to be a good friend to them. There is just always the possibility of someone being hurt. It took me 2 years to develop a friendship with a particular person till we reached a point where I stopped hitting his triggers and he stopped pissing me off.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Drunk Parrot said:


> In regards to being unaware, maybe it is "dangerous", but it doesn't bother me, emotionally. I hope you realize that prematurely condemning cluster B types is also dangerous, and can lead to counter offensive behavior. Treat someone like a monster, don't be surprised if they act like one.


I don't know what exactly I called dangerous, but I didn't mean to say you are a monster, but that you could be abusing people around you, or hurting them very very badly. Yes, that is incredibly dangerous. Also I have a Cluster B disorder, FYI. So I disagree? Personally I was hurt when someone called something I did dangerous, but now I see what they meant, and don't take it personally so much anymore.


----------



## Parrot

Rose for a Heart said:


> I don't know what exactly I called dangerous, but I didn't mean to say you are a monster, but that you could be abusing people around you, or hurting them very very badly. Yes, that is incredibly dangerous. *Also I have a Cluster B disorder, FYI.* So I disagree? Personally I was hurt when someone called something I did dangerous, but now I see what they meant, and don't take it personally so much anymore.


I posted my other comment before reading this, on the Shame thread. Are you BPD or Histrionic?


----------



## Zelz

omit post


----------



## Parrot

@ursi apparently psychopaths are your guardian angels.


----------



## Zelz

omit post


----------



## Aladdin Sane

Drunk Parrot said:


> _the CEO of Mozilla who donated money to Prop 8_


_

The empaths should've cut off his head instead of just cry about it._


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

I am feeling a psycopathly taco deficiency.


----------



## Parrot

Aladdin Sane said:


> The empaths should've cut off his head instead of just cry about it.


I, uhh, don't know how to take this.

1. Are you passionately for gay rights and think anyone opposed should die?

2. Or do you find neurotypical people to be hypocrites that don't have the gumption to fight for what they really care for and if they really cared, they'd kill anyone who disagrees?


----------



## Clayfighter

@Drunk Parrot

I just took it to be humorous.

Not really much meaning beyond that.


----------



## Parrot

Blind Traveler said:


> @Drunk Parrot
> 
> I just took it to be humorous.
> 
> Not really much meaning beyond that.


I didn't think it was funny, just bizarre


----------



## Clayfighter

@Drunk Parrot

Yeah, same thing.

I laugh at things that dont make sense and are bizarre. I laugh and say _*"why does this exist?"*_ That makes it funny to me.


----------



## Felipe

Blind Traveler said:


> @Drunk Parrot
> 
> Yeah, same thing.
> 
> I laugh at things that dont make sense and are bizarre. I laugh and say _*"why does this exist?"*_ That makes it funny to me.


Out of curiosity: Do you laugh watching horror movies?


----------



## Clayfighter

Felipe said:


> Out of curiosity: Do you laugh watching horror movies?


isnt that the point of a horror movie?

Im pretty sure I know what I want to do for a job too

crime scene clean up. I wont mind it and it pays good.


----------



## Felipe

Blind Traveler said:


> isnt that the point of a horror movie?
> 
> Im pretty sure I know what I want to do for a job too
> 
> crime scene clean up. I wont mind it and it pays good.


I met a guy who worked with these things (actually he worked with a lot of other things). It's definetly not the same as fake gore, but he seemed to enjoy it. It's hard to say if he was a psychopath but he definetly, had a "screw loose".


----------



## Parrot

I don't watch horror movies. Don't find them enjoyable, at all.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

I was attracted to CSI, forensics, etc. for a while. Did some optional modules in analytic chemistry and forensic pathology and my research year was focussed on forensic/criminal psychiatry. Was tempting. Also a bad cliche  Criminal profiling looks fun but not too many high profile, prolific serial killers floating around and so not as sexy as it seems.

Also a hobbyist in cyber/network security. Played around a little with that for a while now. Had a summer job at a penetration testing firm doing the social aspects (phishing phone calls, gaining physical entry). Really enjoyed the con aspect of that but realised only in small doses. Prefer a backseat than being on the front lines, for the most part. Spying on / investigating people is more fun over extended periods haha. I like watching people.

Security and related areas has always been something I've liked. When I was in school, I did a couple of engineering-related projects for physical security which were pretty cool. Designing buildings to disorient people (I would (and have, but only for games of 'manhunt' with friends) make incredible saw mazes), prevention tactics for homes - I'd built a homemade door alarm for my bedroom as a kid, got involved in landscaping our property so I could play with defence mechanisms there, etc. My dad gave me a Chinese puzzle box when I was a kid (got to solve the puzzle to unlock it) and was really taken with it. Learned to pick locks when I was a teen - had my first kit at 13 and really got my money's worth out of them. Have been messing around with that ever since really.

It's an odd fascination to have. Something about being able to break in, I guess, and knowing the detection procedures maybe. What to look for? I don't know.


----------



## Clayfighter

I actually cant remember the last time I watched a horror movie. But some of the scenes are comical when I watch them. Its kind of like a bad comedy to me though. Its not actually funny, its just kinda funny.

I just want to do crime scene cleanup because it requires very little education, you just need a certification or something and your on your way.

I cant say I would enjoy that shit, but I wouldnt mind it. I mean no one wants to deal with dead bodies who have been dead for a while and whatnot.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Felipe said:


> Out of curiosity: Do you laugh watching horror movies?


Laugh at the movies and, more commonly, at the reactions of the people around me - that's what is priceless . Seldom do I watch them on my own, since the comedic value is how silly they are.


----------



## Felipe

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Laugh at the movies and, more commonly, at the reactions of the people around me - that's what is priceless . Seldom do I watch them on my own, since the comedic value is how silly they are.


I remember one time, a teacher told how she laughed so much watching the exorcist and I was like...wtf, that movie was so disturbing to me. Now I kinda see why she thought was funny but at the time I just thought she was actually scared but wouldn't admit it (she's not a psychopath though)


----------



## Clayfighter

@Drunk Parrot I added an edit, but yeah people do get to me sometimes, it's just so shallow and I'm over it usually 10 seconds later.

but if we were to talk about cracking my ego, I don't know if those were the choice words I'd use.


----------



## Parrot

Blind Traveler said:


> @Drunk Parrot I added an edit, but yeah people do get to me sometimes, it's just so shallow and I'm over it usually 10 seconds later.
> 
> but if we were to talk about cracking my ego, I don't know if those were the choice words I'd use.


Ok, agree on the ten seconds part. But that's why I don't "blow my top" usually. But cracking my ego is like cracking an egg and pure hatred comes out. It means they got to me and now verbal assault and the fantasy of physical assault is on my mind.


----------



## Clayfighter

@Drunk Parrot have you ever seen the movie nightcrawler? Jake Gyllenhaal plays a psychopath in that movie, how he gets angry the few times he does reminds me of me, it's usually anger that serves a purpose or is to make a point.


----------



## drmiller100

To Kill for Sport said:


> Most of the time things slide with me since its not worth the effort to tutor stupid people. But nothing can crack your ego like being patronised and seen as second class, we are not in control of how we are born and to be assumed inferior due to this makes me angry and sad. Because it isn't logical and its something I have no control over, the way I can calm myself is imaging to kill them (I know this isn't healthy) and thinking about the consequences and clean up stops me.
> 
> And every year I feel myself become more twisted and hateful because of things like these, and I'm worried I'll lose control one day.


you reach a peak. HINT: the serenity prayer. 

And you realize there are more stupid fucks in the world than you can EVER make a difference with. So, become a sarcastic asshole with a level of insult such that smarter people realize what you are doing and giggle. 

the goal isn't to teach the dumb fucks. The goal is to find the interesting people and make sure the dumb fucks wander away quickly.


----------



## Parrot

Blind Traveler said:


> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> @<b><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=223529" target="_blank">Drunk Parrot</a></b>
> <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention --> have you ever seen the movie nightcrawler? Jake Gyllenhaal plays a psychopath in that movie, how he gets angry the few times he does reminds me of me, it's usually anger that serves a purpose or is to make a point.


Nah, I'll watch a clip.










Interesting plot. Yeah, sounds like a psychopath.

Edit: Just finished the top one, such a creepy guy haha.

Edit2: Seems a little co-morbid with something else.


----------



## Clayfighter

@Drunk Parrot yeah he is pretty creepy lol. the movie is available to watch on Netflix and I think it won some type of film award. all in all its a pretty good thriller.


----------



## Parrot

Blind Traveler said:


> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> @<b><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=223529" target="_blank">Drunk Parrot</a></b>
> <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention --> yeah he is pretty creepy lol. the movie is available to watch on Netflix and I think it won some type of film award. all in all its a pretty good thriller.


Law abiding citizen is good, too


----------



## castigat

how many people have come in here asking you to diagnose them
you know it happened
i want to know how many lmao


----------



## Clayfighter

castigat said:


> how many people have come in here asking you to diagnose them
> you know it happened
> i want to know how many lmao


lol Doctor Parrot?

lmao better put in for the name change....before it's taken:laughing:


----------



## To Kill for Sport

drmiller100 said:


> the goal isn't to teach the dumb fucks. The goal is to find the interesting people and make sure the dumb fucks wander away quickly.


I totally agree, but you can't avoid all the dumb fucks. Only once have I lost composure and proper shouted at a creep, but I think reacting will only lead to worse.

I don't really want to become more cynical and sarcastic, because there are things I truly care about, and I wish to be taken seriously sometimes. I do not wish for beautiful things to become any less so due to poison in my breast from the casual cruelty of others. So I keep a special piece of myself hidden so I can be sincere when and see with wonder at times.

@Blind Traveler To be honest for me violence would be the bottom of my list on reactions, probs because I'd lose. But also since its a big red flag, self control is a vital part for any friend of mine to have.

@Drunk Parrot Pure hatred is a substance best kept to ones self, till cool enough to be tempered and sharpened and used with precision rather than losing composure and wacking madly with a mallet.

@castigat umm...mate this is literally an entire forum made up of self diagnosed people, pot kettle much. 
But to be honest I'm not convinced I'm a psychopath, but there is something off with me and it is cathartic to speak here since it is a safe space and there's a lot of stuff I would't of been able to share otherwise. So this is not necessarily a quack's office but a circle talk with biscuits and if there's someone who seems to fit invite them over.


----------



## Parrot

castigat said:


> how many people have come in here asking you to diagnose them
> you know it happened
> i want to know how many lmao


I've had six people PM me to ask me various questions. But can't think of any people that have messaged me to ask if they're a psychopath. That conclusion seems to come from them.

@To Kill for Sport psychopaths are supposed to represent 1% of the population, so it's not exactly rare. It's just that many of the online reviews of psychopaths paint them as robotic ego machines that have no purpose in living. I usually find it difficult to relate to most amateur descriptions.

@Blind Traveler I do just assume I have a PhD and been practicing psychotherapy for 25 years.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

Drunk Parrot said:


> psychopaths are supposed to represent 1% of the population, so it's not exactly rare. It's just that many of the online reviews of psychopaths paint them as robotic ego machines that have no purpose in living. I usually find it difficult to relate to most amateur descriptions.


Parrot I'm just saying, that there's a wide spectrum of stuff. I think I might have some antisocial personality disorder, but I would not draw my conclusions from an discussion with a couple of people. I agree with you most of the writing on psychopaths is both amateur and biased, but in that case how can I inform myself accurately as to what I am? I do not wish to see a therapist nor talk in my personal life about this. I don't mean to alienate you DP, but if I was to confine myself to one thing I would need a higher grade of evidence than the majority which is readily available. I do not wish to label myself, since as a human being I am soft and malleable, my memory subjective to the thought of the moment, I don't wish to make myself into something I am not.

Parrot I know you do not wish this either, otherwise you would be guilty of what castigat implies. I feel you personally wish to inform those with questions, but this must always be a consideration.


----------



## Clayfighter

psychopathy is no longer considered a medical diagnosis. only antisocial personality disorder.

everyone that Says they are a psychopath is self diagnosed regardless of what they say.

some are diagnosed with ASPD and then they just self diagnose the added psychopathy label.

despite it no longer being a medical term, it is relevant in some respects.




*edit:* @Drunk Parrot so out of all the registered members on perc 1,160 are estimated to be psychopaths.

and out of all the members that are currently active(633) 6-7 are estimated to be psychopaths.

(multiply each of those numbers by 7 and you get the number for ASPD, as it is estimated at 7%)


----------



## Parrot

Blind Traveler said:


> psychopathy is no longer considered a medical diagnosis. only antisocial personality disorder.
> 
> everyone that Says they are a psychopath is self diagnosed regardless of what they say.
> 
> some are diagnosed with ASPD and then they just self diagnose the added psychopathy label.
> 
> despite it no longer being a medical term, it is relevant in some respects.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *edit:* @Drunk Parrot so out of all the registered members on perc 1,160 are estimated to be psychopaths.
> 
> and out of all the members that are currently active(633) 6-7 are estimated to be psychopaths.
> 
> (multiply each of those numbers by 7 and you get the number for ASPD, as it is estimated at 7%)


I've read ASPD is 3-4% of males while cluster B is 10% of the population between AsPD, BPD, Histrionic, and narcissist. But 6-7 active psychopaths sounds about right and I'm sure I've noticed most of them. Those of us on this site, anyway, are likely to be well socialized, so discussing the topic isn't too uncomfortable.

@To Kill for Sport all I'm saying is it's a spectrum and being one doesn't make you a blight on society or diminish your right to exist and pursue your goals. To tell, I would just say try to figure out if it's more genetic causes or environmental in regards to AsPD traits. Mine are all genetic as I was raised in a good home.


----------



## Clayfighter

@Drunk Parrot I think you are right it is 3-4% diagnosed. The figure I think I read was total estimated. As in diagnosed and undiagnosed.

But statistics we read online are mostly made up these days -_-

So I cant trust what I read.


----------



## Parrot

Blind Traveler said:


> @Drunk Parrot I think you are right it is 3-4% diagnosed. The figure I think I read was total estimated. As in diagnosed and undiagnosed.
> 
> But statistics we read online are mostly made up these days -_-
> 
> So I cant trust what I read.


Well some narcissists and BPD can be anti-social, but 3% is the estimate for true AsPD. Also, the fact remains that the majority of AsPD aren't been anti-social everyday. If that were the case, the world would be in flames.

Of the AsPD, it's divided between primary and secondary. And probably another 10% of people are sociopathic, in some regard.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

Drunk Parrot said:


> all I'm saying is it's a spectrum and being one doesn't make you a blight on society or diminish your right to exist and pursue your goals. To tell, I would just say try to figure out if it's more genetic causes or environmental in regards to AsPD traits. Mine are all genetic as I was raised in a good home.


I don't think having an APD makes me a blight on society, it takes all sorts to make a world, I know there are a lot of ways it makes me more resilient than others as well as more objective. There's plenty of other stuff for people to be dicks about, and also I can be pretty abrasive. 

I also had a nice childhood on the whole, I think my dad has some form of genetic APD and I've inherited it.


----------



## Parrot

To Kill for Sport said:


> I don't think having an APD makes me a blight on society, it takes all sorts to make a world, I know there are a lot of ways it makes me more resilient than others as well as more objective. There's plenty of other stuff for people to be dicks about, and also I can be pretty abrasive.





> I also had a nice childhood on the whole, I think my dad has some form of genetic APD and I've inherited it.


Same. Father is narcissistic, but not really anti-social. He's an ESTJ so follows rules pretty well.


----------



## castigat

Blind Traveler said:


> lol Doctor Parrot?
> 
> lmao better put in for the name change....before it's taken:laughing:
> 
> View attachment 579922


drunk parrotmedic

@*To Kill for Sport* i wouldn't be here if i wasn't abnormal myself. after all, it takes a certain type of person/people to get along swimmingly with people with (possible?) aspd. we're all mad here

i said it mostly because it's quite popular to flock toward someone that talks openly about it in order to gain some form of informal diagnosis, which is understandable but amusing nonetheless. a lot of symptoms for other illnesses run parallel to or are comorbid with others that might display as something else entirely. someone could be SPD and/or (C-)PTSD and appear to be ASPD as a result of it.

i'm not telling you not to share.


----------



## Clayfighter

@castigat

You're very right about that. There are a lot of instances of PTSD where people misdiagnose themselves with ASPD as a result. PTSD can shut off emotions and cause people to distance themselves with others causing lack of empathy. A lot of people wont trust others as a result of trauma.



If we're going by how a lot of people identify themselves as sociopaths, meaning they had traumatic experiences which led them to be ASPD, a lot of those self-proclaimed sociopaths are indeed afflicted with PTSD.

They may enjoy their condition, but ive heard that a lot of them break down crying when they finally figure out they have PTSD. Its almost like they feel ok about releasing their emotions now that they know they have them.



Although, In my opinion, people who are completely emotionless are autistic in some aspect, not necessarily psychopathic. Psychopaths may not feel most emotions and be emotionless most of the time, but they can tune into them to a very small degree.


From my current understanding and own personal experience, I think the large degree of cognitive empathy that psychopaths have comes from the fact that they have access to mostly all the emotions, but they are just extremely shallow. The one thing I know I cant experience is pity/guilt/love and I cant really recall feeling a specific instance of shame. Instead of feeling shame I do this thing where I experience anger in order to intimidate the person from behaving that way towards me again, but I dont really feel angry while im doing it. Its kind of strange.

I can see why a lot of people would want to message @Drunk Parrot though. I mean when I first stumbled past the topic I found myself wanting to talk to other people about it. Not because I cared about them or wanted to be social. I just wanted more information that was not textbook. I wanted to talk to someone that lived and breathed it to see if the experiences were similar to confirm.

It mostly was intellectual curiosity.


*tl;dr So besides the PTSD, I think psychopaths that say they dont understand neurotypicals or have any emotions at all(besides the few emotions they dont experience) might have some type of autism or this........ "alexithymia" Completely different from ASPD, but I can see how some might be mistaken*

BBC - Future - What is it like to have never felt an emotion?


----------



## castigat

@*Blind Traveler* there are so many different options that it takes a lot of work to pinpoint a specific cause, and a number of different comorbid conditions can present as something else. as an example, the aforementioned SPD (schizoid) can be mistaken for ASPD. hell, ADHD could be as well (and that's without even getting into the idea of ADHD being comorbid with it and its precursors!). context and intensive study is required to get a definitive answer—and although we know ourselves more and better than anyone else, and have the capacity to introspect, we also possess biases and the ability to misinterpret them. 

i do know what alexithymia is, actually. i've had a few professionals mention it to me when i state that i feel quite flat much of the time and that what i do 'express' is ingrained/instinctual and habitual. for the most part, though, they hinged on the fact that i cannot pick out and identify or articulate the emotions that i do have. i might intellectually understand a certain set of emotions and state that i might have them or be feeling them, but i am unable to parse them. same goes for a number of different emotions. it spreads into relationships, because i don't 'physically' understand what sort of emotions i'm supposed to feel or direct toward people, or what distinguishes different levels of relationships, since—outside of my fantasy, maybe, since i understand it with thought—when it comes to practice, i fail to differentiate them. the easiest i can do is try to translate physical sensations and frame them in how another person might experience them based on common trends.

i've come to accept this, honestly, and say 'it is what it is'. it's also an interesting phenomenon to begin to try to describe; the deeper i get into it, the more mangled and unrecognizable it becomes.

“I can put up with an awful lot of pain or unpleasant experiences because I know very shortly I won’t have an emotional memory associated with it,” he says. “But it means that positive memories get washed away too.” same dude, same


i get why people ask questions. the earlier comment about the pot and kettle is quite accurate; my comment was tongue in cheek because i do know of a lot of people that search out ASPD because it may provide an easy explanation, but for many it also offers a certain level of uniqueness despite the stigma. we're all possessed with a need to put a name to things we experience.


also, the cognitive empathy bit could also be owed to observation of people and acknowledgement that they possess feelings and whatnot. you observe people long enough and you begin to have astute predictions and thoughts about people and how they do things, with or without being beholden to them. i know that's my case; i'm a fantastic analyst :crazy:


same with the guilt and shame, though. the only guilt and shame i've felt i was trained to feel, and that i naturally take on because i failed my own expectations. in retrospect, i can't remember much i regret or feel remorseful about, either. that could be part of amnesia, though; a lot of my experiences slough off as soon as i go through them, so naturally if i'm not ruminating on something i did 'wrong' (that i regret doing because it's 'not like me' or went below expectations or something), i hardly remember it at all.

high five for that. we're a big group of like-minded misfits no matter what our possible (or diagnosed) disorders are.


----------



## Clayfighter

@castigat

Yes, I understand that bit about cognitive empathy as well. In fact when I was in first grade I was largely watching everyone, their expressions, and how they reacted. Because really, I had no clue as to what to expect. I might as well have been taking notes. Being able to feel emotions, or at least when I describe feeling them, is really hard to describe. Because I dont mean feeling emotions like other people do. It is a different experience, and there is no attachment to it.

You're right, SPD is a popular misdiagnosis too as you pointed out, the ADHD point you brought up makes for an interesting other point I like to bring up.

I dont know if you're familiar with attention theory, or how it is related to psychopathy, but its said that may play a role too. Sounds kinda ADHD like to me. haha.

I think psychopathy is a lot like all of those things.

But I think the major difference is the damage to (a part of the brain I forgot its name) which deals with morals. Psychopaths have difficult regulating morality, and a lot of SPDs and others dont seem to have those psychopathic tendencies or moral problems.

I have always been a moral nihilist nearly my whole life so it makes sense for me. I think the major thing to look at was whether or not there was some form of conduct disorder early on.

I know there was for me, when I was teen I was cunning manipulative bastard haha. I was ready to do a lot of shit that I cant really, or even want to describe on here.

There was another thread someone started called whats the worst thing youve ever done or something along those lines....and one poster commented....what are you all a bunch of psychopaths or something?!?!?
http://personalitycafe.com/general-psychology/895378-whats-worst-thing-youve-ever-done.html

Well the amount of felonies I committed that violated other peoples lives was a laundry list i'll tell you that much.

Now that I am 25 I have learned how to fit in with others a little more and have been able to control the impulsive side to me.

Im fairly certain most psychopaths are going to be criminals at an early age.


----------



## castigat

@*Blind Traveler* i was not cunning or manipulative in youth, but i do subscribe to moral nihilism/skepticism/relativism as well. (it's a horribly convoluted mix of those lmao.) it's rather fun going through moral issues with more 'morally-minded' people, because i end up coming off as a heartless pedant with all of the 'well, _technically_' that goes on. it's rather entertaining seeing people's horrified reactions when you say that really, nothing is intrinsically moral or immoral and it only is so because people place subjective value on it, not because the action (or thought, or whatever) is so by itself—then if something 'is' or 'isn't' moral according to a certain person or group, it isn't to another, which begs the question that nothing is inherently moral or immoral. . .it goes in a rather entertaining circle.


i mentioned ADHD for the most part because it's not uncommon to have it diagnosed with something like ODD or conduct disorder with kids, both of which can be the first and second step up to an adult diagnosis for ASPD, depending upon how things go. there's also the attention theory, the impulsivity, the fact that the prefontal cortex is affected by both, etc. one could feasibly look like the other and vice versa, whether one, both, or neither of them exist in the individual. 

tl;dr the brain is wild


i don't subscribe to the objective and imminent criminality of ASPD or psychopathy, because it is not unheard of for people with the diagnosis to not be violent or criminal. the studies produced based on small samples of criminals don't give an accurate representation of the general public, even if (especially if) criminality is a part of the diagnostic criteria. 

i do know someone diagnosed (young, 19, but diagnosed) who has had a good life and fits everything except the criminal criteria; i've also talked to other older people with the diagnosis that weigh the disadvantages of acting on their impulses as too high. the consequences and likelihood of punishment are more of a deterrent than any effect it might have on the people/property/whatever is—but there is the 'impulsive' bit as well, which can lead to the criminal acts. . .and manifest itself in other ways lmao. 

i'd agree with them; logistically and practically, committing crime is usually of more risk than it's worth. personally, my willpower and shitty attention span overcomes any urges i have because 'it's more trouble than its worth' and i'd rather keep my record clean so i don't lock myself out of opportunities.


----------



## Clayfighter

@castigat Right well I guess all I would say is as I have gotten older and more intelligent, I dont really commit crimes. I think this is the difference between low functioning psychopathy and high functioning. Its really all just intelligence and the ability to foresee things to regulate impulsiveness.

I mention criminality, because I believe at some point such as 14-15 Most people will see something they want and there will be nothing stopping them from taking it. Now I know some people can become highly matured at a young age and this might stop them from the conduct disorder.

My point was largely I think to describe effectiveness in diagnosis. If the criminality is present, its really easy to diagnose psychopathy because it weeds out a lot of other diagnosis if the person also contains the traits.

But yes, I agree there are some pro-social high functioning psychopaths that are the exception to the rule. I also just think it would be damn hard to diagnose themselves in that instance, and hard for a psychologist too. They would probably need an fmri and other scans to complete the whole picture.


----------



## castigat

@*Blind Traveler* my environment was a pile of shit so i matured _fast._ that doesn't say much of anything, but i do acknowledge your comment about having to mature. there's also the fact that different people have different temperaments. the whole environment thing won't always cause the same result, though i doubt you need to be told that.

i do think the criminality bit might be partly hare's fault and an intrinsic bias toward people that propose some form of 'danger to society' or themselves, as with other PDs. as such, people who might fit a lot of the criteria but aren't particularly _violent_ or haven't committed (m)any crimes or didn't get caught may not matter much in the eyes of psychology because they aren't actively fucking shit up. they aren't proposing an overt detriment to their surroundings, so there's no need to try and correct them. it's also very easy to lie, and anyone that has particularly violent urges—but haven't committed any crimes or gotten caught—may know that they shouldn't admit to what they've done or think because it could endanger them or their integrity. so the literal only way they would end up getting a proper diagnosis, if it's even necessary, was if they fucked up and got a court order or got arrested or something. (which is why self-diagnosis is understandable, whether or not i agree with it lol.)

i mean, it's not an illogical way to approach it, since the more important thing is to weed out people that endanger society, as you've said, but it does lock out a lot of people. of course, with that, there are a shitload of other disorders that could be diagnosed if psychologists saw a need to do so. ADHD and SPD together could possibly present as ASPD enough to warrant a misdiagnosis.


----------



## Clayfighter

@castigat Right. I guess if someone has a good understanding of psychology they would know how to weed out a lot of those diagnosis. For example, a psychopath may be antisocial, but they will not limit their social interactions because it is beneficial to them. Someone with SPD would not do this. They would avoid social relationships. An ASPD doesnt necessarily avoid them, but they might be destructive to them.

Also the conduct of a person does not necessarily need to be criminal, in fact some form of manipulative tendencies a person exhibits could be legal, but still engaged in. Later that person could be a CEO, who knows? They wouldnt need to be a criminal.

Like you, I hate self-diagnosis. I hate it with a passion. But knowing what I know, I know what I probably am. Knowing this makes me never want to get diagnosed though, theres no way in hell im going on paper.

That being said, I dont really care to have a label. I dont really want one to be honest, but its nice to make sense of things sometimes.

I look at it like this. I understand the nature of myself, and then I use that as a tool to better myself and avoid negative behaviors. Its mostly beneficial in that respect. I dont necessarily treat myself for a condition, but work on the symptoms and how they could manifest. Embrace and accept myself so to speak. I dont really get the emotional aspect of embracing myself, but I get the logical benefit of being a better me.

Basically, I really like being a better version of myself haha. Im working on my ability to actually follow through with my planning and have a good career and better future, because before I had way too impulsive of a lifestyle to engage in anything with a delayed reward. My attitude was all now now now.


----------



## Parrot

@Blind Traveler I don't mind self-diagnosis as long as it can be peer reviewed. In other words, I created this thread as a way to guage others' opinions on the subject which is how I've been able to reasonably conclude that I qualify as a psychopath, but a more under the radar version. I'm generally harmless, which is why I could have the confidence to create this thread. It's also annoying because, like a small dog, I want to loudly bark and proclaim to others "FEAR ME!"

I suppose my ego wants to see myself as a potential vessel of destruction and ignore my history of being the opposite. Oh well, like my signature says, I'm just another dumb fuck, anyway.

In regards to alexithymia, I can see how people mistake it. Psychopaths don't lack emotional affect, it's just shallow, with some ego-centric emotions being felt strongly. Maybe it's co-morbid for some, but over the past year I've paid much more attention to my emotions and have tried not to suppress them. I've found I'm capable of empathy and sympathy, but only in specific scenarios when doing so is not a threat to me and I allowed myself to express it. I've also paid attention to feelings like joy, sadness, anger, fear, etc. What I've noticed is they can be rewarding to have experienced. They don't last long, and they're very inconsistent. That's probably why the average psychopath might say they've never been afraid, because if fear is triggered, it's so diminished and temporary, that it has little effect on decision making. Same with other "negative" emotions like guilt and sadness. Happens so rarely and randomly, that it might as well not exist. Right now, the only emotion I feel is interest, as I'm discussing a topic I feel is relevant. This weekend, I watched football and felt some joy after both my teams won.

Because the emotions are some fleeting and not as strong, it makes it difficult to form emotional memories, which of course leads to lack of a moral conscience. Still, I'd say I have some sort of conscience, in that I have logical opinions on what's right and wrong. But I don't feel strongly about any of those opinions unless a conversation on the topic leads to a challenge on my ego. Then, I'll argue to prove I'm right rather than believing I'm right.


----------



## Clayfighter

@Drunk Parrot

I think James fallon actually did the same thing on a Tv show, where many other psychologists came on to gauge whether or not he was a psychopath. Although, most of them just said he wasnt lol. I think they said they were more convinced he was an adhd narcissist that might be autistic.(I also heard he has OCD, so that would be one hell of a diagnosis.)

I think this is mostly because when they asked him to try and do a repeat of the brain scans he dodged. It was also because they were trying to go by Hares PCL-R checklist. And fallon scored under 25 on that so, they didnt want to diagnose him I guess.

I personally wouldnt mind getting another round of MRI's and all that jazz to see if I really am one, but simply hearing there were some abnormalities or reduced volume in the regions associated with psychopathy was good enough to hear for me. I dont really want to spend 1k just to verify my own self-diagnosis, thats not practical for my taste at all, and it would just be so I could hold the label which wouldnt even matter(because I cant really tell anyone). I wasnt even getting those scans for the reasons of psychopathy either, so I was kind of like wtf?


So in that sense I dont really mind diagnosing myself, even though my neurologist told me that the brain abnormalities were not conclusive because I still had 3 years till I was 25(im 25 now), so I try and refrain from shouting it from the mountains. Basically if there is an internet forum or Q and A site asking about psychopathy, I will answer, but I always answer (or try to) in the third person and say this is what a psychopath will probably do. I never say oh I do this!

Except for on this forum, that was kind of the point to it.


----------



## Parrot

@Blind Traveler I identified with Dr Fallon quite a bit; I consider him a psychopath and high functioning. The PCL-R checklist is mostly to determine if a criminal should be readmitted back into society. A criminal psychopath should not be, objectively. But the first 8 questions are more relevant to psychopathy, anyway, as it's primary. Besides, I score 4.9 on primary and like 3.0 on secondary. Simply means I'm a psychopath in the academic sense, which represents 1% of the population. I view criminal psychopaths as a minority, anyway, and they usually became that way as a result of a tough upbringing that often causes people to become sociopaths.


----------



## Clayfighter

@Drunk Parrot 

I agree that a lot of psychopaths are pretty much harmless(criminally), but like I said for some reason those psychologists were going by Hare's checklist and that's why they were hesitant to consider him a psychopath.

Just thought id clarify that is all.

and you're right, it is intended for the prison population.

Psychopathy as a biological or physical condition is proven mostly from the lack of empathy, and then the glibness/superficial charm, grandiose sense of selfworth and etc are usually considered necessary additional characteristics.

An fmri scan to test for psychopathy measures emotive responses to imaging, that is generally how they try and demonstrate it. This is basically measuring empathy.


----------



## Parrot

@Blind Traveler I think you know this already but I'll say this for anyone else, too: This thread was designed to talk about the neurological affect of people who are psychopathic, according to primary criteria. Has nothing to do with the pop culture understanding or the criminology understanding of the term. Instead, I'm focusing on otherwise normal people who live day to day lives but are psychopaths. Many of them might "hurt" others around them, even if it's just emotional/unethical but not illegal. Some people have mistaken my presentation as an appeal for others to sympathize with psychopaths. Fuck their sympathy, haha. I care more about understanding.

Ok, now that I clarified that, I would like to take an fMRI for understanding, but I also don't want to be under watch or some shit. '


----------



## Clayfighter

@Drunk Parrot

Right, itd be an interesting experience and stimulate intellectual curiousity. But I would avoid it personally. Its not a good idea to be a psychopath on paper, due to the misconceptions about it.

as far as psychopathy and hurting people. Neurotypical people hurt others just as much I think, the only difference is they have to deal with the guilt afterwards, or they are actually oblivious to the fact they are hurting others and dont deal with it.

Psychopaths may have a brain hard-wired to manipulate(depending on who they learned from growing up), but they can learn to avoid manipulative tendencies, just like a neurotypical can.


----------



## drmiller100

Blind Traveler said:


> Psychopaths may have a brain hard-wired to manipulate(depending on who they learned from growing up), but they can learn to avoid manipulative tendencies, just like a neurotypical can.


or, they can choose to only fuck with people they decide are assholes. 

what's your IQ? think it matters?


----------



## Clayfighter

drmiller100 said:


> or, they can choose to only fuck with people they decide are assholes.
> 
> what's your IQ? think it matters?


Yes, but I more-so was just stating that within context to drunk parrots comments as they concerned criminality. I was merely stating that they dont necessarily have to be any which way.

What is my IQ. No clue, I'm sure there are mixed results. I dont think it matters much anyways. Why would it?

My IQ is a bit different depending on the type of test. If we were to talk about math/logic etc I tend to score really high. I'm pretty sure my IQ was at least 140 under a certain type of testing. Dont know what it was though, it was a while ago. As in, I never had to study or try in any math class I ever had in my entire life. I understand how to do most math without having it explained to me and etc.

When it comes to english and language, I tend to probably score at average. Mediocre really. I would probably only have an IQ of 100 or 95 regarding certain fields. So probably average or even below average in some areas.

I really am a fish trying to climb a tree concerning specific types of intelligence.

In others im a monkey leaping from tree to tree.

I assume this is the way it is for most people.


----------



## drmiller100

Blind Traveler said:


> As in I never had to study or try in any math class I have ever had in my entire life. I understand how to do most math without having it explained to me and etc.
> 
> .


wow. that is really good. I had to work pretty hard in math. 

i can agree you aren't very good at really good at the written word.


----------



## Clayfighter

drmiller100 said:


> wow. that is really good. I had to work pretty hard in math.
> 
> i can agree you aren't very good at really good at the written word.


What is the point in confirming something negative about a person, if they already are aware of it?

Nevermind I got the joke, I AM A RETARD. LOL. Good one. You really got me there. I truly got fucked with haha.


----------



## drmiller100

Blind Traveler said:


> I could say something negative about you, but I choose not to because I understand that most people dont enjoy that very much. I also never viewed you as an enemy so I don't really need to be hostile.
> 
> Covert narcissist by chance? Or did something I say irritate you, and it is in your subconscious/unconscious causing some type of Freudian slip?


Covert? Not hardly. Enemy? No.

Not my subconscious. I'm fully conscious of it. 

When I followed the proof for the Lagrangian points, I was able to rationalize the existence of exactly TWO such points for the Earth/sun. I have a son, and a daughter, and they seem firmly convinced they are at those points. 

Therefore, you are not.


----------



## Clayfighter

drmiller100 said:


> Covert? Not hardly. Enemy? No.
> 
> Not my subconscious. I'm fully conscious of it.
> 
> When I followed the proof for the Lagrangian points, I was able to rationalize the existence of exactly TWO such points for the Earth/sun. I have a son, and a daughter, and they seem firmly convinced they are at those points.
> 
> Therefore, you are not.


I already edited my post, that post was an accident from not reading your post properly. I got it now.


----------



## drmiller100

Blind Traveler said:


> What is the point in confirming something negative about a person, if they already are aware of it?
> 
> Nevermind I got the joke, I AM A RETARD. LOL. Good one. You really got me there. I truly got fucked with haha.



curious. which joke did you get? there were several.


----------



## Clayfighter

drmiller100 said:


> curious. which joke did you get? there were several.


the one where I had bad english and you copied that part.

Also the part where you used bad grammar and then mocked mine.

It was classic irony.


----------



## Parrot

Blind Traveler said:


> @Drunk Parrot
> 
> From my experience in dealing with a father, I usually forgive right away, but dont forget. I think you are wise to not hate him. Or at least try not to as it seems that is what you are saying. It's usually in my best interest to forgive, even though im not a forgiving person. It just helps mute some of my behavior.
> 
> If I made my father even slightly angry, he had no empathy holding him back, he would rather have me homeless than make him slightly irritated. It was always get out, fuck you, and leave the key behind you. My mom was probably the only reason I wasnt homeless at age 18. By age 19 I had moved out though.


Being calm, cool, and collected helps. Had to learn that. I'll just wait it out and shoot the shit with him on occasion. I only brought it up because it was fresh, anyway.


----------



## Clayfighter

Drunk Parrot said:


> I only brought it up because it was fresh, anyway.


Its all good. 

It Seems relevant too. 

By the way. How did you get post rank: Birdie Borracho

is that a name that was given to you? Or do you choose a name when your post rank is high.


----------



## Parrot

Blind Traveler said:


> Its all good.
> 
> It Seems relevant too.
> 
> By the way. How did you get post rank: Birdie Borracho
> 
> is that a name that was given to you? Or do you choose a name when your post rank is high.


Once someone gets to 6500 posts, they can choose their own post rank. And if you go to page 1 of this thread, you can see where I got that nickname from another user.


----------



## Clayfighter

Drunk Parrot said:


> Once someone gets to 6500 posts, they can choose their own post rank. And if you go to page 1 of this thread, you can see where I got that nickname from another user.


Yeah, I already read through the first part of this thread.

That's actually why I asked you, because I saw the user comment about it and then saw it on your post rank.

I was just curious if that user gave you the idea or if it was just given to you without choice.


----------



## Parrot

Blind Traveler said:


> Yeah, I already read through the first part of this thread.
> 
> That's actually why I asked you, because I saw the user comment about it and then saw it on your post rank.
> 
> I was just curious if that user gave you the idea or if it was just given to you without choice.


Yeah I liked the nickname


----------



## To Kill for Sport

castigat said:


> i said it mostly because it's quite popular to flock toward someone that talks openly about it in order to gain some form of informal diagnosis, which is understandable but amusing nonetheless. a lot of symptoms for other illnesses run parallel to or are comorbid with others that might display as something else entirely. someone could be SPD and/or (C-)PTSD and appear to be ASPD as a result of it.
> 
> i'm not telling you not to share.


 @castigat Like a spatula under soapy water I emerge once again...
I feel my initial reply to you might have been a bit harsh, I got most of the context for it from your avatar going "Barf". Hi.
I'm gonna be honest I used to be a Nihilist, but its too much fucking drama.

But now I've swung back from a big dark hole of boredom. Ha ha hah...work gives my life meaning.

@Drunk Parrot I did read something a while ago talking about Psychopaths being able to turn empathy on and off (or rather a subject concentrated on a video and gave an emotional response). 

Oi! Blind Traveler/what ever tags not working for either name.

HAHA academic stuff...I'm gonna be honest I could only do like that there geometry, but also my maths teacher got into a car crash so we had substitutes for a year. As well as being pretty dyslexic. 
Though I did get fast tracked for a load of other stuff, I was also put into gifted and talented programs in school (getting free trips to university's and that). 

So I guess I am reasonably smart...but then again I have an art degree.


----------



## Clayfighter

To Kill for Sport said:


> =
> Oi! Blind Traveler/what ever tags not working for either name.


my name is now clayfighter. Just tag me using that name


----------



## Clayfighter

@To Kill for Sport

Why is nihilism drama?

It is the most logically sound ethical position.

It also allows you freedom in your behavior and influences cognitive thought.

A lot of people dont realize the implications of nihilism, but almost all of them are positive.


----------



## Parrot

Clayfighter said:


> my name is now clayfighter. Just tag me using that name


What a dumb name


----------



## Clayfighter

Drunk Parrot said:


> What a dumb name


Its based on a video game I used to play as a kid.

Thanks by the way.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

Clayfighter said:


> @To Kill for Sport
> 
> Why is nihilism drama?
> 
> It is the most logically sound ethical position.
> 
> It also allows you freedom in your behavior and influences cognitive thought.
> 
> A lot of people don't realize the implications of nihilism, but almost all of them are positive.


Because most Nihilists are 15 years old...no but, I do generally agree with Nihilism but some people use it as a victim hood/entailment thing opposed to just not trusting anything thing. 

I personally live by the rule that nothing is true, there is only the most logical guess/hypothesis (ah! just like science). Where as there's a lot more to Nihilism than that.


----------



## Clayfighter

To Kill for Sport said:


> Because most Nihilists are 15 years old...no but, I do generally agree with Nihilism but some people use it as a victim hood/entailment thing opposed to just not trusting anything.
> 
> I personally live by the rule that nothing true, there is only the most logical guess. Where as there's a lot more to Nihilism than that.


Nihilism is all about freedom.

There are no 'oughts'

This doesnt mean you should kill people or kill yourself because you're depressed.

In fact no nihilist would.

only an 'ought' would imply one must kill themselves.

You can be anything you want to be. Thats what nihilism is about. The 15 year olds dont matter in my opinion.

They can tarnish the image of nihilism if they want to. Why would I care what others think about my beliefs? I may act like I care, but whatever.... no one seems to realize when they're getting sandbagged. Including on this thread. Im done pretending on that account.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

Clayfighter said:


> This doesnt mean you should kill people or kill yourself because you're depressed.
> 
> In fact no nihilist would.
> 
> only an ought would imply one must kill themselves.


?

I personally have a much stronger science background than philosophy. So I use objectivity as my sliding scale, it has always seemed to me that nihilism has branched out from this. 
Of course organised society is weird and abstract. Language is really abstract, religion pretty abstract. When ever I've read Nihilist works they've never really said anything new to me. 

But nihilism is almost its own form mortality, it's an idea with a lot of baggage. Becoming almost a parody of itself, resembling the society/religion it criticizes, with outdated notions and cancerous ideals attached to it.

I'm not saying objectivity is a holy grail of any sort, but I have a problem with people just accepting a Philosophy as a whole with out nitpicking it (and therefor going against the principle of Nihilism itself). 

Which is why I say Nihilism is drama, because there's alot of it and its all over the place. 

Lots of sticky fingerprints.

But I appreciate you probs get it alot better than most peeps. Live free Clayfighter!


----------



## Clayfighter

To Kill for Sport said:


> ?
> 
> I personally have a much stronger science background than philosophy. So I use objectivity as my sliding scale, it has always seemed to me that nihilism has branched out from this.
> Of course organised society is weird and abstract. Language is really abstract, religion pretty abstract. When ever I've read Nihilist works they've never really said anything new to me.
> 
> But nihilism is almost its own form mortality, it's an idea with a lot of baggage. Becoming almost a parody of itself, resembling the society/religion it criticizes, with outdated notions and cancerous ideals attached to it.
> 
> I'm not saying objectivity is a holy grail of any sort, but I have a problem with people just accepting a Philosophy as a whole with out nitpicking it (and therefor going against the principle of Nihilism itself).
> 
> Which is why I say Nihilism is drama, because there's alot of it and its all over the place. Lots of sticky fingerprints.


you are describing individual behavior mannerisms, and connecting it to nihilism.

Nihilism has no baggage.

Happy to hear your thoughts on if im wrong. Happy to be advised to the contrary.

I just dont think its the case.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

Clayfighter said:


> Happy to hear your thoughts on if im wrong. Happy to be advised to the contrary.


No, its good to have a conversation about this. I don't think either of us are wrong since we perceive the same thing in different ways. We both subscribe to different philosophies so we each see are own and others in a distinct light. To be honest how you talk about Nihilism is refreshing compared to most other people. But for me you represent a part of a whole, and there's a lot of factors in your cooking pot according to my personal ideas.

Ahhhhh! Why subjectivity?


----------



## Clayfighter

To Kill for Sport said:


> No, its good to have a conversation about this. I don't think either of us are wrong since we perceive the same thing in different ways. We both subscribe to different philosophies so we each see are own and others in a distinct light. To be honest how you talk about Nihilism is refreshing compared to most other people. But for me you represent a part of a whole, and there's a lot of factors in your cooking pot according to my personal ideas.
> 
> Ahhhhh! Why subjectivity?


Why subjectivity?

Because anything can be perceived in a subjective context.

Perception is everything.

Most people dont know the difference between objectivity and subjectivity because they are unable to detach their self-construct from the facts.

I let them wallow in it, I might laugh when they try and re-write the script, but I rarely question it unless that question can lead to knowledge. i.e. Socratic method

Its best to recognize subjectivity and embrace it. This way you wont inhibit thought and rationale.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

Clayfighter said:


> Its best to recognize subjectivity and embrace it. This way you wont inhibit thought and rationale.


Good conversation, since I don't think we've proper chatted before. 
But now its (way past) time to sleep, 
so I must retreat.
Have a good night all, 
and into slumber pleasantly fall.


----------



## Clayfighter

To Kill for Sport said:


> Good conversation, since I don't think we've proper chatted before.
> But now its (way past) time to sleep,
> so I must retreat.
> Have a good night all,
> and into slumber pleasantly fall.


always a pleasure.

It is beneficial to provoke thoughts. 

We can grow from this. It is a gift. Take care.


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

Today we did dark triad in school but skipped psycopathy :sad:

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


----------



## Clayfighter

Moonious said:


> Today we did dark triad in school but skipped psycopathy :sad:
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


Maybe you can watch random youtube videos of a lecture instead. 

That may compensate.


----------



## Red Panda

Drunk Parrot said:


> It could be but that's on the extreme end. The typical sociopaths I've met are usually lazy in the relationship. Often they create a form of co-dependency from their partner as their partner attempts to "change" them. I know two guys I consider to be sociopaths, who are very sweet to their girlfriends (At least as far as I can see). But they'll be generally anti-social in public with their attitude and demeanor. It's a spectrum so a sociopath can just be your friend who is a dick to most people to someone who killed a guy and is in jail. They're 4% of the population.


The person I have in mind, his main drive in life is to have power of the others (not necessarily to harm them) and he will engage in all sorts of behaviors (suitable to the group) to garner attention and power, so basically will change himself into what others appreciate so he can be on top. But now he feels like an empty shell, doesn't know who he is or who he can be in life. Is that something you've heard of before? 



> Yes, sociopaths are quite diverse as it's just a catch all label for anyone who is anti-social in behavior. And by that, I mean their behavior holds their own interests in mind without regard to others.
> 
> Sociopaths generally have a quick temper, especially type 8 and CP 6 sociopaths. Type 3 sociopaths are typically vain, type 7 are flakey, etc.
> 
> I've known people, especially those from my recovery group, who _were_ sociopaths. Traditional therapy usually can't fix sociopathy, but it can be fixed in other ways.
> 
> But yes, depression can exist with anyone, to some degree, as well as being self critical.


That person has a lot of anger and disappointment as a result of things not going his way, however he blames himself as well (after a lot of thought). He is a very strategic and calculating INTJ with tons of perfectionism and will foresee behaviors and dynamics months before.


----------



## Clayfighter

@RedPanda

I think this is fairly accurate. It is just an illustrated comparison, but it says it's sourced from James Fallon. 










Sociopaths are fairly versatile in mood and emotion, because they are more-so a product of their environment and genetics play less of a role. 

Mood disorders, anxiety, depression etc; they _*can *_fall victim to it just as hard as a normal person. The only thing they lack is a conscience(if I am not mistaken). They technically still have the capability for empathy, although it almost never registers. It especially doesn't for strangers.

In my opinion, due to their circumstances they have started to treat life like a game, because they don't trust normal people anymore. They've basically stopped playing by the rules, because the rules screwed them over.


----------



## CrystallineSheep

It is probably easy to confuse narcissists with psychopaths? I can see how some of the behaviors can overlap. I wouldn't want to be too keen to label people as psychopaths. The people that I know that seem to fit the psychopath model, even somewhat, are probably more than likely just narcissists.


----------



## Clayfighter

IndustrialClef said:


> It is probably easy to confuse narcissists with psychopaths? I can see how some of the behaviors can overlap. I wouldn't want to be too keen to label people as psychopaths. The people that I know that seem to fit the psychopath model, even somewhat, are probably more than likely just narcissists.


psychopaths are a bit narcissistic by nature. Not completely, but they have high self-esteem and confidence.

Narcissists as in NPD is a whole different pathology based on upholding a false sense of self and getting supply to validate it.

*Edit:* you're right though, sometimes its hard to tell what people are. That's why it is best not to speculate much about it. If someone is toxic avoid them. if they aren't, then cool. You don't need a word or a label for that.


----------



## Rabid Seahorse

IndustrialClef said:


> It is probably easy to confuse narcissists with psychopaths? I can see how some of the behaviors can overlap. I wouldn't want to be too keen to label people as psychopaths. The people that I know that seem to fit the psychopath model, even somewhat, are probably more than likely just narcissists.


Yes. Psychologists have even conceptualized a "Psychopathy Spectrum" characterized by varying severity. Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is at the "mild" end, malignant narcissism (mixture of NPD and antisocial PD traits) in the middle, and at the most severe end: full-blown psychopathy.

Narcissistic personality disorder and antisocial personality disorder are strongly correlated with each other. Neither of them are capable of mature relationships or empathy, and both wreak havoc on the well-being of those around them.

Be careful about jumping to conclusions about people though- not all scumbags are narcissists or sociopaths. I've seen plenty of scumbags but I've only known one person with confirmed, diagnosed NPD and he did not seem normal at all. I wouldn't have pegged him as specifically having a PD but it was clear from a far distance something about him wasn't right.


----------



## Parrot

Rabid Seahorse said:


> Yes. Psychologists have even conceptualized a "Psychopathy Spectrum" characterized by varying severity. Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is at the "mild" end, malignant narcissism (mixture of NPD and antisocial PD traits) in the middle, and at the most severe end: full-blown psychopathy.


This isn't true at all. Psychopathy and Narcissism are two different spectrums. 



> Be careful about jumping to conclusions about people though- not all scumbags are narcissists or sociopaths. I've seen plenty of scumbags but I've only known one person with confirmed, diagnosed NPD and he did not seem normal at all. I wouldn't have pegged him as specifically having a PD but it was clear from a far distance something about him wasn't right.


I don't get the impression that you know what you're talking about at all.


----------



## Clayfighter

Drunk Parrot said:


> I don't get the impression that you know what you're talking about at all.


Now, now. Don't scare away our potential friends, Parrot. :crazy:


----------



## drmiller100

Red Panda said:


> So could it be in the form of an extreme BDSM type of Master/slave relationship where they want the other person to be their servant and shower them with affection and servitude 24/7? Doesn't mean they don't want to offer what they can to them in return, but they deeply desire such a degree of admiration from the other.
> 
> I know, but I think this is the best place to ask about it, no?
> 
> Also, is it possible for a sociopath to be very self-critical and fall into depression and anxiety from feeling like a failure?


Masters are invariably narcissists. Doms can be narcissists or sociopaths or just Sx stacking with control issues.


----------



## Parrot

Clayfighter said:


> Now, now. Don't scare away our potential friends, Parrot. :crazy:


But these friends are just talking out of their ass, Sir Clayfighter. I can't allow misinformation to spread. After all, this is how wide spread panic occurs.


----------



## drmiller100

Drunk Parrot said:


> But these friends are just talking out of their ass, Sir Clayfighter. I can't allow misinformation to spread. After all, this is how wide spread panic occurs.


careful. you'll hurt his feelers and then you will feel bad also.


----------



## Parrot

Red Panda said:


> The person I have in mind, his main drive in life is to have power of the others (not necessarily to harm them) and he will engage in all sorts of behaviors (suitable to the group) to garner attention and power, so basically will change himself into what others appreciate so he can be on top. But now he feels like an empty shell, doesn't know who he is or who he can be in life. Is that something you've heard of before?
> 
> 
> 
> That person has a lot of anger and disappointment as a result of things not going his way, however he blames himself as well (after a lot of thought). He is a very strategic and calculating INTJ with tons of perfectionism and will foresee behaviors and dynamics months before.


Yeah, anyone can deal with situational depression. I've felt it, before, when life isn't fulfilling. I think it correlates to a lack of either dopamine or narc supply.



drmiller100 said:


> careful. you'll hurt his feelers and then you will feel bad also.


Sorry dad, I'll play nice. 

roud:


----------



## Clayfighter

Drunk Parrot said:


> this is how wide spread panic occurs.


Lol :wink:



Drunk Parrot said:


> Sorry dad, I'll play nice.



You better, I might get my feelings hurt lol. That would be so unfortunate :laughing:


----------



## CrystallineSheep

Can people with low intelligence and who are, in general, just complete dumbasses lack empathy? Without necessarily being psychopathic?


----------



## drmiller100

IndustrialClef said:


> Can people with low intelligence and who are, in general, just complete dumbasses lack empathy? Without necessarily being psychopathic?


Apparently.


----------



## Clayfighter




----------



## Red Panda

Drunk Parrot said:


> Yeah, anyone can deal with situational depression. I've felt it, before, when life isn't fulfilling. I think it correlates to a lack of either dopamine or narc supply.



Might be both of them in this case. I met him online in a chat room a few months back and he opened up with me in private, but recently he felt that people don't appreciate him anymore as they did before (not getting the same replies) and he doesn't feel he can control the environment as he did before, so he decided to leave and I probably will never speak with him again, as he feels he's opened too much with me (which has me left quite sad). Grew a lot of jealousy, resentment, anger and general frustration with the whole situation and he hated himself for feeling that way. He does believe he is sociopath and there are a lot of factors that point that way, I just wondered about those specific ones that seemed to me not very characteristic of sociopathy from what I've read online. Tho it seems to me online sources are very limited and usually biased against these people, which I find a little extreme.

So maybe he is more narcissistic than sociopath?


----------



## Parrot

IndustrialClef said:


> Can people with low intelligence and who are, in general, just complete dumbasses lack empathy? Without necessarily being psychopathic?


Without another disorder, this is not normal. Intelligence doesn't affect empathy. The range of empathy can be affected, but generally a typical person, sans disorder, should be able to feel some empathy for at least those closest to them like family. They might not feel deep compassion for those suffering around the world, though. Emotionally unhealthy people won't feel empathy, as their feelings are self-absorbed based on their "struggles". Intelligence isn't going to affect that...actually dumb people are probably less likely to be neurotic and develop disorders.



Red Panda said:


> Might be both of them in this case. I met him online in a chat room a few months back and he opened up with me in private, but recently he felt that people don't appreciate him anymore as they did before (not getting the same replies) and he doesn't feel he can control the environment as he did before, so he decided to leave and I probably will never speak with him again, as he feels he's opened too much with me (which has me left quite sad). Grew a lot of jealousy, resentment, anger and general frustration with the whole situation and he hated himself for feeling that way. He does believe he is sociopath and there are a lot of factors that point that way, I just wondered about those specific ones that seemed to me not very characteristic of sociopathy from what I've read online. Tho it seems to me online sources are very limited and usually biased against these people, which I find a little extreme.
> 
> So maybe he is more narcissistic than sociopath?


Probably more sociopathic as he seems self aware. Don't assume that because you liked him he'd be more narcissistic than sociopathic. The latter, I'd say, is often in a more sympathetic position. Doesn't mean they don't take advantage of people.


----------



## Red Panda

Drunk Parrot said:


> Probably more sociopathic as he seems self aware. Don't assume that because you liked him he'd be more narcissistic than sociopathic. The latter, I'd say, is often in a more sympathetic position. Doesn't mean they don't take advantage of people.


Nah, he's taken advantage of people many times, especially in the past that he had more social connections. Something came over him and spilled the beans to his family a few years back tho. He's definitely self aware, which is indeed not exactly a usual trait in narcissists. Between the two I'm not sure which I'd prefer him to be, narcissist seems more volatile and dangerous to others since it's very emotional based, but his need for control and admiration and how angry and frustrated he gets after feeling like he's lost them (which was likely only in his eyes) seemed particularly characteristic of that. Maybe he is sociopathic with narcissistic traits or something. /shrug 
Thanks for the replies.


----------



## Parrot

Red Panda said:


> Nah, he's taken advantage of people many times, especially in the past that he had more social connections. Something came over him and spilled the beans to his family a few years back tho. He's definitely self aware, which is indeed not exactly a usual trait in narcissists. Between the two I'm not sure which I'd prefer him to be, narcissist seems more volatile and dangerous to others since it's very emotional based, but his need for control and admiration and how angry and frustrated he gets after feeling like he's lost them (which was likely only in his eyes) seemed particularly characteristic of that. Maybe he is sociopathic with narcissistic traits or something. /shrug
> Thanks for the replies.


Sociopathic/Borderline/psychopathic/histrionic imply narcissistic traits. Narcissism is at the core of Cluster B. There's also a difference between compensatory vs elitist narcissism.


----------



## Red Panda

double post


----------



## drmiller100

RobynC said:


> LOL are you serious?


that was last month. now I'm an unemployed bum touring the western US riding my scooter.


----------



## RobynC

@drmiller100

But don't you see the irony? You seem to be an NPD case teaching a course on ethics


----------



## Parrot

RobynC said:


> @drmiller100
> 
> But don't you see the irony? You seem to be an NPD case teaching a course on ethics


What makes you think he has NPD? @drmiller100 is far from insufferable.


----------



## drmiller100

RobynC said:


> You seem to be an NPD case teaching a course on ethics


Fuck you.

You don't get to diagnose me. I'm not NPD. 

I'm not a "case." I'm a human being. 

In my ethics class we talk about Kegan, and his orders of consciousness growth. 

What level do you think you are at?

If you are offering unsolicited diagnostics then surely you are familiar with Kegan, Piaget, Maslow et al.


----------



## Parrot

drmiller100 said:


> Fascinating. Te, strong Si, inability to respect a separate opinion separate from your's, and unfailing belief in something written.
> 
> Associates in Criminal Justice recently earned in a dual enrollment program?


That did stink of myopic Te. A smarter Te user would recognize that I have some knowledge of this topic.



drmiller100 said:


> Fuck you.
> 
> You don't get to diagnose me. I'm not NPD.
> 
> I'm not a "case." I'm a human being.
> 
> In my ethics class we talk about Kegan, and his orders of consciousness growth.
> 
> What level do you think you are at?
> 
> If you are offering unsolicited diagnostics then surely you are familiar with Kegan, Piaget, Maslow et al.


Hmmm, the unsolicited part shouldn't be a problem. Calling you NPD or a psychopath is fine if the shoe fits. What I don't care for is the lack of individual perception towards your ability to teach ethics. She makes quick assumptions based on a preconceived label, which does strip you of your humanity.

Besides, I can support ethics without feeling a need for morality. Surely, you can do the same.


----------



## RobynC

drmiller100 said:


> You don't get to diagnose me. I'm not NPD.


You said you don't have empathy... isn't that basically the definition of narcissism?



> I'm a human being.


I never said you weren't a person



> What level do you think you are at?


I never said I taught ethics: I just thought it was ironic


----------



## Parrot

RobynC said:


> You said you don't have empathy... isn't that basically the definition of narcissism?


Lack of empathy is correlated with Cluster B as well as several other disorders. NPD is a specific disorder.


----------



## drmiller100

Drunk Parrot said:


> T
> 
> Hmmm, the unsolicited part shouldn't be a problem. Calling you NPD or a psychopath is fine if the shoe fits. What I don't care for is the lack of individual perception towards your ability to teach ethics. She makes quick assumptions based on a preconceived label, which does strip you of your humanity.
> 
> Besides, I can support ethics without feeling a need for morality. Surely, you can do the same.


Unsolicited typing is against the rules on this site. 

Her logic was "I think I read somewhere (but I can't find it anywhere) he said he has no empathy, and MY version of ethics revolves MY empathy for others, so how can HE teach ethics without MY empathy." And, she called me a "case." 

In other news, I ran across this:

able to construct "durable categories"-classifications of objects, people, or ideas with specific characteristics (Kegan, 1994). As a result, their thinking becomes more logical and organized, their feeling are more enduring, and they relate to others as separate and unique beings. Kegan and others (2001) noted that at this time, "rules, sets of directions, and dualisms give shape and structure to one's daily activity" (pp. 4-5). In this order, individuals develop a sense of who they are and what they want. "Competition and compromise" (Kegan, 1982, p. 163) are characteristic themes of the second order and are often played out within peer group settings. Support at this stage requires confirmation of the person the child has become. Challenge to develop further involves encouragement to take into consideration the expectations, needs, and desires of others.


----------



## Parrot

drmiller100 said:


> Unsolicited typing is against the rules on this site.


Who cares? It's only bad if it's based on bad information. I diagnose people all the time.

But...



> Her logic was "I think I read somewhere (but I can't find it anywhere) he said he has no empathy, and MY version of ethics revolves MY empathy for others, so how can HE teach ethics without MY empathy." And, she called me a "case."
> 
> In other news, I ran across this:
> 
> able to construct "durable categories"-classifications of objects, people, or ideas with specific characteristics (Kegan, 1994). As a result, their thinking becomes more logical and organized, their feeling are more enduring, and they relate to others as separate and unique beings. Kegan and others (2001) noted that at this time, "rules, sets of directions, and dualisms give shape and structure to one's daily activity" (pp. 4-5). In this order, individuals develop a sense of who they are and what they want. "Competition and compromise" (Kegan, 1982, p. 163) are characteristic themes of the second order and are often played out within peer group settings. Support at this stage requires confirmation of the person the child has become. Challenge to develop further involves encouragement to take into consideration the expectations, needs, and desires of others.


I agree her perception of you was wrong.


----------



## Clayfighter

Glad to see everyone has their feathers ruffled.


----------



## Parrot

Clayfighter said:


> Glad to see everyone has their feathers ruffled.


Great analysis as always, there.


----------



## Clayfighter

Drunk Parrot said:


> Great analysis as always, there.


Not really an analysis. More so an observation that there was an entire page of bird avatars.


----------



## Parrot

Clayfighter said:


> Not really an analysis. More so an observation that there was an entire page of bird avatars.


How astute. This thread has also had entire pages of only psychopaths posting.


----------



## Clayfighter

Drunk Parrot said:


> How astute. This thread has also had entire pages of only psychopaths posting.


That's because its a psychopath thread. It is not a bird lovers thread. Nice comparison. Even more astute.


----------



## drmiller100

Clayfighter said:


> That's because its a psychopath thread. It is not a bird lovers thread. Nice comparison. Even more astute.


and you are here and add value because...........


?????????

Ah. You have a keyboard and internet.


----------



## Clayfighter

drmiller100 said:


> and you are here and add value because...........
> 
> 
> ?????????
> 
> Ah. You have a keyboard and internet.


Don't forget the mouse.


----------



## drmiller100

I watched slingblade last night for the first time. 

I got teary in a few places. Carl qualifies as sociopath. 

Today a guy I thought I was getting along with laid into me, angry. don't know what it was about, but know the results. I let him rant, adn I'll get out of his life (which is what he wants). The whole thing made me kind of sad.


----------



## Parrot

drmiller100 said:


> I watched slingblade last night for the first time.
> 
> I got teary in a few places. Carl qualifies as sociopath.
> 
> Today a guy I thought I was getting along with laid into me, angry. don't know what it was about, but know the results. I let him rant, adn I'll get out of his life (which is what he wants). The whole thing made me kind of sad.


Why was he yelling? I would just be confused.

Don't remember the last time a person I know well yelled at me, though.


----------



## drmiller100

Drunk Parrot said:


> Why was he yelling? I would just be confused.
> 
> Don't remember the last time a person I know well yelled at me, though.


didn't yell, just hella angry - get outta my life, you don't belong here anymore, blah blah blah. 

Meh. over it.


----------



## Parrot

drmiller100 said:


> didn't yell, just hella angry - get outta my life, you don't belong here anymore, blah blah blah.
> 
> Meh. over it.


Are you telling me you're a toxic person? Haha

Can't say I've had a movie moment like that as if I was a horse being told to leave the farm.


----------



## Parrot

*Halloween*

This time of year is always great because so many articles come out about real life stories and movies featuring bloodthirsty psychopaths. I remember last year that Cracked.com did an article about 5 scary realities about psychopaths. It basically describes how psychopaths are among us, just waiting to pounce. Needless to say, the comments section was awesome.

Don't care much for scary stories/movies. I'm not obsessed by murder mysteries or serial killers, either. The latter is only interesting if there's a recorded interview. For me, Halloween is fun for candy and slutty outfits. But I suppose fear is a real factor, although I've never understood why fear is entertaining. Those situations are annoying, why would anyone want to be in them? I've made other people afraid and that was fun. Thankfully, I never got a big enough kick out of it to become addicted to the rush.

Anyway, happy Halloween.


----------



## Clayfighter

Drunk Parrot said:


> I've never understood why fear is entertaining.


Fear plays a role in intermittent reinforcement. We like to feel emotional highs and lows. You create a problem just to solve it. That triggers a dopamine release.


----------



## castigat

sup, everyone.

kinda curious what people have to say about this, but mostly it's just for @*Drunk Parrot* lmao


* *




[15:10:25] monarch of mixed messages: anyway this has me reflecting on affective vs. cognitive empathy again
[15:10:31] schizoid dickhead memelord: same
[15:10:40] monarch of mixed messages: cognitive empathy is easy
[15:10:43] monarch of mixed messages: affective, not so much
[15:12:06] monarch of mixed messages: cognitive empathy seems more important anyway
[15:12:16] monarch of mixed messages: if you're running off your instincts all the time, you can't really make rational decisions.
[15:13:55] monarch of mixed messages: is this abnormal or what
[15:14:08] monarch of mixed messages: because i'm like. _feeling_ other people's emotions seems. . .counterproductive, most of the time
[15:14:11] monarch of mixed messages: what is that going to solve
[15:14:30] monarch of mixed messages: coming from someone that doesn't actively feel other people's emotions arbitrarily, but only as a result of cognition, if felt at all
[15:14:51] monarch of mixed messages: like how can people physically share the upset of another person
[15:15:05] monarch of mixed messages: i would need to know how or why before i even come _near_ 'sharing' it
[15:15:38] monarch of mixed messages: and then like, it's easy to 'turn off' empathy
[15:16:17] monarch of mixed messages: i get understanding how and why someone feels a certain way, but viscerally feeling others' emotions, all the time? i don't get it.
[15:16:49] monarch of mixed messages: i thought i used to because i was always anxious and didn't know what cognitive empathy was, so i just assumed that my anxiety about people and groups was me naturally reading their emotions as a result of being 'empathetic', not hypervigilant and scared.
[15:17:00] schizoid dickhead memelord: >>> i thought i used to because i was always anxious and didn't know what cognitive empathy was, so i just assumed that my anxiety about people and groups was me naturally reading their emotions as a result of being 'empathetic', not hypervigilant and scared.
*SAME.*
[15:17:02] schizoid dickhead memelord: FUCKING *SAME.*
[15:17:28] monarch of mixed messages: now i know that i don't have as much 'physical' empathy as i thought, because it was all fueled on a fight or flight instinct based in survival, not actually giving a shit.


----------



## Parrot

@castigat I'd say a lot of thinkers perceive empathy that way, but psychopaths are on a far end of the spectrum. Narcissists aren't particularly good at either but are great at demonstrating it and attracting people, anyway.


----------



## Clayfighter

I think it's still possible to feel empathy in a non-contagious way through cognitive empathy. It wouldn't be affective empathy, but it could still be felt through a cognitive simulation perhaps.


----------



## Parrot

Clayfighter said:


> I think it's still possible to feel empathy in a non-contagious way through cognitive empathy. It wouldn't be affective empathy, but it could still be felt through a cognitive simulation perhaps.


Yeah, I'd say sympathy. I've actually practiced it, for temporary situations. It's a great way to develop Fe. The thing is, however, that it's not really maintained. It's in the moment and doesn't really spur me into action.


----------



## doris88

I'm not sure if you are a normal representative of psychopaths, but maybe you could answer my dilemma.

Basically, I don't understand why won't psychopaths at least try to train themselves to be decent people. I don't understand, for example, scam artists - what is the joy of destroying lives of many families, causing them distress, just for the money, a piece of paper, something so stupid and irrelevant, and with high risk of being caught at some point or otherwise taking some unpleasant consequences. We all have just one short life. Why on Earth would living like this be a best use of it?

I'm a sensitive person, but I'm self-centered and flawed. I would trade so much to be better to other people, especially those who are close to me. I try therapy from time to time mostly for my partner who will be with me anyway, but I want things to be easier to him. I feel like I'm working on my 256 colors every day. I envy so much people who are more developed than me, naturally very empathetic, loving, who can enjoy closeness with others and create a more beautiful world thanks to their gifts. I'm ashamed of myself every time I act like a jerk. If there was a brain operation to be a 100% good person from now on, I would gladly risk it.

So I don't understand, not as much people incapable of recognizing emotions, but these deliberately hurting people over and over, including people who love them. Why not go through hell of therapy and intense self-reflection, but then at the end be finally able to look at yourself in the mirror. If I knew I tend to destroy people who love me just because they're vulnerable and I have a compulsion, I would pack my things and become a hermit. I don't understand why would someone voluntarily missed on the most beautiful things a human being can experience in this life (like vulnerability or connection) and satisfy themselves with inflicting pain whenever they can. Spiritually speaking, it's like choosing to be a mockery of a human being.

Is there some explanation you could provide to this phenomenon? I'm asking out of curiosity, I don't know if it's related to you or not, since I don't know anything about your actions towards other people.


----------



## Parrot

@doris88 hey I'm fairly normal and fairly healthy. For the most part, I am a decent person, although my motivation to become so was not for the sake of being decent. I've just found being decent to be positive. If anything, I'm a bit of a method actor when I am. I can completely adapt and believe it, but I can break character and realize it was an act, which I believed at the time. Ultimately, decent for the sake of decent is not a motivation. Treating others well yields positive benefits. People return the favor, it's narc supply, and life is easier when people like me.

As far as others, they may not see a motivation to be decent. Hurting others yields very little guilt to where it isn't a deterrent. I was raised in a good environment and I've learned to get along well. But there is a burning desire, at times, to hurt specific people. Usually against people whom I feel slighted me.

The appeal to decency and morals doesn't work on a psychopath. Clearly you aren't one so you can't relate. You can judge, but understanding is difficult. Some people take real pleasure from the pain they cause. In fact, I'd say being nice/kind produces the same psychological reward as causing someone else sorrow, for a psychopath. There has to be a reason to tip towards good behavior, otherwise anti-social behavior might be easier. I have a reason and I rarely hurt people. But I'd have no problem in tearing someone down if I felt I must.


----------



## drmiller100

doris88 said:


> Basically, I don't understand why won't psychopaths at least try to train themselves to be decent people.
> 
> I would trade so much to be better to other people, especially those who are close to me. I try therapy from time to time mostly for my partner who will be with me anyway,
> 
> .


You'd "trade so much to be better to people" except more time and some actual effort. 

You wonder why a psychopath don't "train themselves" to be decent to people, yet you don't think you are decent to others?

cuz it takes work to grow and change and the vast majority of people are content to keep on keepin' on.


----------



## camous

I don't know if that's the place but i'll give it a shot. over the summer I realized that my brother shows most of the signs of being a psychopath or a sociopath. However unlike you, he is not balanced at all. he is actually very dangerous and totally delusional. How do I know of his danger? Because I was one of his first victim and I also have some family members telling me some of his worst confessions. Now I don't know if all that he admitted to them is true or not. But one thing I wonder is why he was so abusive to me; I mean I am 5 years younger and all the memories I have of childhood with him was abuse: physical psychological and even worse that I don't feel like sharing here. I am just unsure about his motivation. Is it just pleasure? Also he seems pretty unhappy and disconnected from everyone. I was just wondering what you think of this, and what would be the features of an unhealthy psychopath. Personally I don't think psychopath are "a problem" like most think of them as crazy lunatics, yet if your surgeon is a psychopath you'll probably be thankful that he can so focused and not empathize with you while operating because this coldness allows for them to be effective, but I am getting sidetracked here.


----------



## Parrot

@camous the reason why would be temporary power as a form of relief from other struggles. Hurting others allows him to forget his problems.



> I mean I am 5 years younger and all the memories I have of childhood with him was abuse: physical psychological and *even worse that I don't feel like sharing here.*


You just did.

Your brother needs help, but a very specific type of help. First thing would be he'd need a reason to even consider help. That starts with a worldview. If his worldview can't be change, he'll see no reason to change. And he might be able to keep living in a manner that is highly unethical, but is legal, so he sees yet another reason not to change.

Best thing, for you, is to keep your distance and find the support you need to properly heal. Trauma like what you experience can take years to recover from, properly.


----------



## camous

Drunk Parrot said:


> @camous the reason why would be temporary power as a form of relief from other struggles. Hurting others allows him to forget his problems.
> 
> 
> 
> You just did.
> 
> Your brother needs help, but a very specific type of help. First thing would be he'd need a reason to even consider help. That starts with a worldview. If his worldview can't be change, he'll see no reason to change. And he might be able to keep living in a manner that is highly unethical, but is legal, so he sees yet another reason not to change.
> 
> Best thing, for you, is to keep your distance and find the support you need to properly heal. Trauma like what you experience can take years to recover from, properly.


Well I agree with what you say. I am getting support, but I am very frustrated because I do not know what to do so my brother is not a danger to people (and what he does is actually illegal and pretty serious) my mom especially is in total denial and says that she has tried everything when he was a kid and now he is an adult so what is she supposed to do. which is not totally wrong, but when you know your son is a danger to society I think denial is not the best answer. His worldview is that people are dumb and fucked up and justice does not exist so he needs to do it himself (even though he has a specific idea of what justice is, because so far he has no punish himself to what he did to me but oh well...)

Thanks for your answer though


----------



## Parrot

camous said:


> Well I agree with what you say. I am getting support, but I am very frustrated because I do not know what to do so my brother is not a danger to people (and what he does is actually illegal and pretty serious) my mom especially is in total denial and says that she has tried everything when he was a kid and now he is an adult so what is she supposed to do. which is not totally wrong, but when you know your son is a danger to society I think denial is not the best answer. His worldview is that people are dumb and fucked up and justice does not exist so he needs to do it himself (even though he has a specific idea of what justice is, because so far he has no punish himself to what he did to me but oh well...)
> 
> Thanks for your answer though


Your profile lists you as 26, which means he's 31. There probably won't be a change any time soon or ever. If he's hurting people, try to get him caught and sent to jail.

Or kill him yourself :tongue:


----------



## doris88

@Drunk Parrot 


Thanks for explaining. I just think not striving to be decent is such a waste of this short time on Earth. And for example, how is it possible to feel self-respect if someone constantly abuses someone who loves them? Don't they feel like a waste of a person?


It's also not about the guilt - regular people also enjoy hurting others and not always feel guilt (it's very situational). I think non-psychopathic people can also be not moral. But I don't see the point of being a ball of destruction instead of a positive force in the universe. It's like spending life acting like an Alien from the movie Alien instead of any human character from the franchise. Who would do that and why


----------



## doris88

StMiller100 said:


> You'd "trade so much to be better to people" except more time and some actual effort.
> 
> 
> You wonder why a psychopath don't "train themselves" to be decent to people, yet you don't think you are decent to others?
> 
> 
> cuz it takes work to grow and change and the *vast majority *of people are content to keep on keepin' on.



...Huh? All I'm saying it's not like striving to be decent is a piece of cake for regular people and I wish there was a shortcut, but there's only the hard way, two-step-forward-one-step-back. But it's still absolutely worth the effort. So I don't understand why psychopaths are not even trying since not having natural empathy is not enough of excuse - many people don't have it easy.

And in my opinion you have unrealistically negative opinion about other people.


----------



## Parrot

doris88 said:


> @Drunk Parrot
> 
> 
> Thanks for explaining. I just think not striving to be decent is such a waste of this short time on Earth. And for example, how is it possible to feel self-respect if someone constantly abuses someone who loves them? Don't they feel like a waste of a person?
> 
> 
> It's also not about the guilt - regular people also enjoy hurting others and not always feel guilt (it's very situational). I think non-psychopathic people can also be not moral. But I don't see the point of being a ball of destruction instead of a positive force in the universe. It's like spending life acting like an Alien from the movie Alien instead of any human character from the franchise. Who would do that and why


I see your viewpoint and there's nothing wrong with it. I'm just saying a psychopath doesn't view life with the same motivations. It's a results based mindset based on cause and effect. Especially the "short time on earth" thing. A psychopath sees that and says they're going to gain as much for themselves as possible, like a hedonist. A psychopath also doesn't make the same emotional connections, so instead of viewing those around them with love, it's often an empty feeling. Effort can be put in to make that feeling seem somewhat permanent, but people are easily forgotten. Which means, by default, a psychopath naturally lives to boost only themselves, because their happiness is all they know to be real, due to lack of empathy. Taming a psychopath is like taming a lion. Both can learn to be domesticated, but it goes against instinct. A mindset can be trained to think otherwise, but it's not natural. And such taming needs a reason to be accepted by a psychopath. Being good for the sake of being good, quite frankly, isn't good enough.


----------



## doris88

Thanks that's pretty helpful.

I always tend to think people who claim to be psychopaths & spend many hours educating people about psychopaths to kind of warn them and make it easier for them to interact with psychopaths, are not really psychopaths but maybe aspies  Anyway, I appreciate the effort you're putting in this thread.


----------



## ShadowsRunner

Drunk Parrot said:


> I see your viewpoint and there's nothing wrong with it. I'm just saying a psychopath doesn't view life with the same motivations. It's a results based mindset based on cause and effect. Especially the "short time on earth" thing. A psychopath sees that and says they're going to gain as much for themselves as possible, like a hedonist. A psychopath also doesn't make the same emotional connections, so instead of viewing those around them with love, it's often an empty feeling. Effort can be put in to make that feeling seem somewhat permanent, but people are easily forgotten. Which means, by default, a psychopath naturally lives to boost only themselves, because their happiness is all they know to be real, due to lack of empathy. Taming a psychopath is like taming a lion. Both can learn to be domesticated, but it goes against instinct. A mindset can be trained to think otherwise, but it's not natural. And such taming needs a reason to be accepted by a psychopath. Being good for the sake of being good, quite frankly, isn't good enough.


Why do so many people illicit psychopathic traits for are themselves not "psychopaths" and would this fall under the "dark triad" concept?

I mean I don't know, I'm going to risk offending many here and say that much of it is are society and culture; which can be very conducive to developing psychopathy traits and fostering them in the young.

It's the people who are "maladjusted" and have difficulty coping that seem to have the greatest difficulty excelling in this environment.

I also have a feeling many people who turn into psychopath's grow up in an environment where they are not shown very much empathy or care when they are younger and as well, where the biggest priority is having to only know survival and fending primarily for themselves. There's also some studies been done that show those who grew up in really low income and/or crime ridden areas show some difference in brain activity; especially those who later turned to crime. Which, many criminals tend to grow up like I suppose. (The study was basically conducted on criminals)


----------



## Parrot

@ShadowsRunner I see your point that society can breed some anti-social traits. But for the purpose of clarification, within this thread, the understanding is psychopathy is a genetic neurological trait, that has nothing to do with behavior. It's just that being a psychopathic increases the probability of being anti-social. What you're referring to is people who are otherwise neurotypical, that become *sociopathic* in their environment.


----------



## ShadowsRunner

Drunk Parrot said:


> @*ShadowsRunner* I see your point that society can breed some anti-social traits. But for the purpose of clarification, within this thread, the understanding is psychopathy is a genetic neurological trait, that has nothing to do with behavior. It's just that being a psychopathic increases the probability of being anti-social. What you're referring to is people who are otherwise neurotypical, that become *sociopathic* in their environment.


You can't really differentiate from nurture versus nature though. Whose to say there is even such a thing?

The very concept itself I wonder is a little anti-socialist in it's nature. Why care about others well being? for all we know, just as many are naturally psychopathic! ad nauseam: "Human beings are selfish and greedy!"


----------



## m1khv11d

@Drunk Parrot

What do you want out of life? achieving recognition (game master)?


In our time it's best for you to hide the fact that you're a psychopath;

Do you think you can turn your condition into something positive for other humans? Do you believe psychopaths can be looked at in a different, positive way in the future?


----------



## Parrot

mikkelhv11d said:


> @Drunk Parrot
> 
> What do you want out of life? achieving recognition (game master)?
> 
> 
> In our time it's best for you to hide the fact that you're a psychopath;
> 
> Do you think you can turn your condition into something positive for other humans? Do you believe psychopaths can be looked at in a different, positive way in the future?


Did you read anything I wrote beyond the OP? As far as "in our time" that is meaningless. There is never a good time. And since I'm not a wanted criminal, why should I have to hide? I've actually talked to family and friends, too.

Anyway, what do I want in life...to enjoy it, not be bothered with too many difficulties, and make enough money to not worry about money.

Psychopaths are just as much a part of the human experience. As talked about in the thread, being a psychopath is not automatically anti social. It's an internal thing that might manifest as anti social.


----------



## Kaboomz

Drunk Parrot said:


> There is never a good time.


well that's just not true

pre anglo saxon europe
ancient gaul
the silk road during temujin's family reign

...eastern europe in the 21st C 

and any other era where violence and disorder allowed for the easy exploitation and abuse of those around you


----------



## Parrot

Kaboomz said:


> Drunk Parrot said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is never a good time.
> 
> 
> 
> well that's just not true
> 
> pre anglo saxon europe
> ancient gaul
> the silk road during temujin's family reign
> 
> ...eastern europe in the 21st C
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and any other era where violence and disorder allowed for the easy exploitation and abuse of those around you
Click to expand...

Do you feel better after having posted that? Thanks for contributing nothing to the conversation beyond some brief stereotypes.


----------



## Kaboomz

Drunk Parrot said:


> Do you feel better after having posted that? Thanks for contributing nothing to the conversation beyond some brief stereotypes.


psychopathy is a stereotype

sorry for raining on your absolutist statements 

want an umbrella?


----------



## Parrot

Kaboomz said:


> Drunk Parrot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you feel better after having posted that? Thanks for contributing nothing to the conversation beyond some brief stereotypes.
> 
> 
> 
> psychopathy is a stereotype
> 
> sorry for raining on your absolutist statements
> 
> want an umbrella?
Click to expand...

Nah, just want you to go away.


----------



## Kaboomz

Drunk Parrot said:


> Nah, just want you to go away.


understandable...just realized you've been feeding off this thread for over a year 

happy gobbling


----------



## Parrot

It's the best damn thread on this forum. Greatest of all time. There is room to feed for everyone, though.


----------



## m1khv11d

Drunk Parrot said:


> Did you read anything I wrote beyond the OP? As far as "in our time" that is meaningless. There is never a good time. And since I'm not a wanted criminal, why should I have to hide? I've actually talked to family and friends, too.
> 
> Anyway, what do I want in life...to enjoy it, not be bothered with too many difficulties, and make enough money to not worry about money.
> 
> Psychopaths are just as much a part of the human experience. As talked about in the thread, being a psychopath is not automatically anti social. It's an internal thing that might manifest as anti social.


You're scared(or whatever logical reason) of opening up to the real world, so you go in this forum and post all day? Do you believe it's supposed to be that way? (i'm sorry if this is not the reason you're posting here, then just ignore it)

You say you want to enjoy life - then you worry about making enough money. When the money is made then what?  

I ask these questions because my value in life comes from the empathy and understanding of other people. So i'm genuinely interested in you viewpoint.


----------



## Parrot

mikkelhv11d said:


> You're scared(or whatever logical reason) of opening up to the real world, so you go in this forum and post all day? Do you believe it's supposed to be that way? (i'm sorry if this is not the reason you're posting here, then just ignore it)
> 
> You say you want to enjoy life - then you worry about making enough money. When the money is made then what?
> 
> I ask these questions because my value in life comes from the empathy and understanding of other people. So i'm genuinely interested in you viewpoint.


I talked about opening up to others in real life. But I can be more in depth here. The only thing I'd be afraid of is professionally. Don't want to be judged as a liability, even though I'm usually a quality employee.

When money is made, I'll enjoy other things. I like my friends and spending time with people.

I'm not motivated to be good for the sake of being good. And I waver between decency and internal narcissistic rage.


----------



## Kaboomz

Drunk Parrot said:


> It's the best damn thread on this forum. Greatest of all time. There is room to feed for everyone, though.


that's the spirit roud:

so do you really think demographic has no bearing on psychological disorders? when social anarchy or draconian rule take precedent the social classes tend to create environments devoid of authority or law within their own system, which can only encourage those predisposed to criminal behavior. 

i have no idea about the prevalence of mental disorder in tribal societies that exist outside of our culture, but in any dominant social structure there is a distinct resistance to authority. i think ASPD is most predominant in e. europe and south america as of the new century, and both places represent the fringe of western civilization, where authority is still present, but not strong enough to maintain control. the result is poor living standards, low law enforcement, lack of work and general social despondence. that's the general environment that originates most personality disorders. kids with no authority figures, no future and a social structure that rewards kill or be killed. such an environment seems naturally advantageous to someone who's basic psychology follows the same logic

maybe you've already mentioned this...i'm reading this thread backwards


----------



## m1khv11d

@Drunk Parrot

Ok, ty 

So you like spending time with friends and people. 
When I spend time with people, I like it because I relate and understand how they feel. That's my enjoyment. 
I'm not really sure where the empathy cuts for you.

When you converse, do you put yourself in their position, think about how they feel in the moment you talk together?
What makes you feel good about talking to someone?

I'm sorry if these questions seem stupid. I just don't have much knowledge at all about your condition.


----------



## Parrot

Kaboomz said:


> Drunk Parrot said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's the best damn thread on this forum. Greatest of all time. There is room to feed for everyone, though.
> 
> 
> 
> that's the spirit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so do you really think demographic has no bearing on psychological disorders? when social anarchy or draconian rule take precedent the social classes tend to create environments devoid of authority or law within their own system, which can only encourage those predisposed to criminal behavior.
> 
> i have no idea about the prevalence of mental disorder in tribal societies that exist outside of our culture, but in any dominant social structure there is a distinct resistance to authority. i think ASPD is most predominant in e. europe and south america as of the new century, and both places represent the fringe of western civilization, where authority is still present, but not strong enough to maintain control. the result is poor living standards, low law enforcement, lack of work and general social despondence. that's the general environment that originates most personality disorders. kids with no authority figures, no future and a social structure that rewards kill or be killed. such an environment seems naturally advantageous to someone who's basic psychology follows the same logic
> 
> maybe you've already mentioned this...i'm reading this thread backwards
Click to expand...

Personally, I don't view psychopathy as a disorder any more than Aspergers. So it's more an alternate neurological processing.

You seem to be confusing it with anti social behavior, sociopathic traits, which any person is capable of. It's just that psychopaths are capable of a special kind of anti social that takes horrifying to another level. But anti social is not exclusive to psychopaths nor are psychopaths automatically anti social. 1% of the population is psychopaths and if they were all committing regular crimes, the world would be in disarray.


----------



## Parrot

mikkelhv11d said:


> @Drunk Parrot
> 
> Ok, ty
> 
> So you like spending time with friends and people.
> When I spend time with people, I like it because I relate and understand how they feel. That's my enjoyment.
> I'm not really sure where the empathy cuts for you.
> 
> When you converse, do you put yourself in their position, think about how they feel in the moment you talk together?
> What makes you feel good about talking to someone?
> 
> I'm sorry if these questions seem stupid. I just don't have much knowledge at all about your condition.


That's very much a feeler trait, you sound Fi dom, perhaps. Thinkers, in general, aren't as emotionally invested.

I enjoy the attention, the topics of conversation. I like when people like me and sometimes I'm helpful so that they'd like me. I can gain pleasure from building someone up just as much as tearing someone down. So in some ways, it feels like I'm interacting with objects, but I'm not inherently destructive.

The mindset isn't consistent, though. Sometimes "empathy" flips on and I feel invested in someone. Other times, I'm manipulating. It's something I have to turn on and I have to have a reason to do so, such as not needing anything to gain.


----------



## Kaboomz

Drunk Parrot said:


> Personally, I don't view psychopathy as a disorder any more than Aspergers. So it's more an alternate neurological processing.


are we discussing them from a meta psychology point of view? because clinically they are both disorders. they are clinically defined by their pervasive and intransigent features, not exempt from them because of a relative point of view



> You seem to be confusing it with anti social behavior, sociopathic traits, which any person is capable of. It's just that psychopaths are capable of a special kind of anti social that takes horrifying to another level. But anti social is not exclusive to psychopaths nor are psychopaths automatically anti social. 1% of the population is psychopaths and if they were all committing regular crimes, the world would be in disarray.


no, i'm just observing that from a _statistical_ pov, demographics seem to be extremely relative to one's psychic equilibrium. horror is relative. anyone is capable of atrocious behavior, but as you said, some are more predisposed to it and will thrive when the level of social harmony is compromised. there are definitive moments in human history when such predilections would be notably advantageous. the one's that allow for extreme levels of human behavior that tickle the chronically bored pickle, for example


----------



## drmiller100

Drunk Parrot said:


> It. There is room to feed for everyone, though.


no. stupid people are not worth feeding on. 

don't encourage the stupid trolls.


----------



## drmiller100

mikkelhv11d said:


> So you like spending time with friends and people.
> When I spend time with people, I like it because I relate and understand how they feel. That's my enjoyment.
> .



that is the definition of an "empath" someone who feels other people's emotions. 

that makes up less than 10 percent of the population btw, so saying someone doesn't feel emotions as well as you hardly makes someone else weird. And like Parrot said, mostly Fi people, and usually NFp. There are some infj's who are empaths and sane. ENFJ's who are empaths have huge problems developing boundaries and can sometimes be neurotic and codependent.

Parrot talks about tearing people down vs building them up. I'm REALLY good at tearing someone down. It is pretty trivial. I've gotten better about ratcheting negativism until annoying people go away without me getting in trouble. However, at a party if a pompous asshole annoys me it can be great fun to make fun of him/her to their face. 

It is MUCH harder to build people up. Therefore, it is a worthy challenge. Further, growing them up the stages of moral development is even harder yet - and interesting.


----------



## m1khv11d

@StMiller100

Ah. I'm not really an expert in personalities, I just live out of my own bubble, trying to learn though. Thank you for informing me.

Do you have the same traits as Drunk Parrot?

Anyway if you personally can 'build up' someone, you're not *really* building them up. Because you're probably able to destroy them afterwards. If someone's truly built up, they cannot be destroyed by someone else. You can give them some sort of fake confidence.

That's my theory. Maybe you can fake it till you make it though.


----------



## Parrot

Kaboomz said:


> Drunk Parrot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I don't view psychopathy as a disorder any more than Aspergers. So it's more an alternate neurological processing.
> 
> 
> 
> are we discussing them from a meta psychology point of view? because clinically they are both disorders. they are clinically defined by their pervasive and intransigent features, not exempt from them because of a relative point of view
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You seem to be confusing it with anti social behavior, sociopathic traits, which any person is capable of. It's just that psychopaths are capable of a special kind of anti social that takes horrifying to another level. But anti social is not exclusive to psychopaths nor are psychopaths automatically anti social. 1% of the population is psychopaths and if they were all committing regular crimes, the world would be in disarray.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> no, i'm just observing that from a _statistical_ pov, demographics seem to be extremely relative to one's psychic equilibrium. horror is relative. anyone is capable of atrocious behavior, but as you said, some are more predisposed to it and will thrive when the level of social harmony is compromised. there are definitive moments in human history when such predilections would be notably advantageous. the one's that allow for extreme levels of human behavior that tickle the chronically bored pickle, for example
Click to expand...

Well, that's just like your opinion, man. Haha

What point are you trying to make?


----------



## drmiller100

mikkelhv11d said:


> Anyway if you personally can 'build up' someone, you're not *really* building them up. Because you're probably able to destroy them afterwards. If someone's truly built up, they cannot be destroyed by someone else. You can give them some sort of fake confidence.
> 
> That's my theory. Maybe you can fake it till you make it though.


strangely enough, other people are capable of doing things you can't. 

do you dream of finding your soul mate to complete you, or are you still finding independence given your own understanding of how important you are to the world?


----------



## Kaboomz

Drunk Parrot said:


> Well, that's just like your opinion, man. Haha
> 
> What point are you trying to make?


my point,



Drunk Parrot said:


> Did you read anything I wrote beyond the OP? As far as "in our time" that is meaningless. *There is never a good time*. And since I'm not a wanted criminal, why should I have to hide? I've actually talked to family and friends, too.


is that the above seemed stupid and dismissive, and i was interested in whether you would discuss it for it's own sake, or if doing so would threaten your self image too much 

jury's still out


----------



## Parrot

Kaboomz said:


> Drunk Parrot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that's just like your opinion, man. Haha
> 
> What point are you trying to make?
> 
> 
> 
> my point,
> 
> 
> 
> Drunk Parrot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did you read anything I wrote beyond the OP? As far as "in our time" that is meaningless. *There is never a good time*. And since I'm not a wanted criminal, why should I have to hide? I've actually talked to family and friends, too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> is that the above seemed stupid and dismissive, and i was interested in whether you would discuss it for it's own sake, or if doing so would threaten your self image too much
> 
> jury's still out
Click to expand...

Looks like it damages too much so your case has been dismissed.


----------



## Kaboomz

Drunk Parrot said:


> Looks like it damages too much so your case has been dismissed.


that's ok, i probably made up the statistics anyway

and no need to continue dismissing me, when you get bored, you can just stop replying


----------



## m1khv11d

@StMiller100
I agree that you have to mirror yourself through other people to be built up, but: I don't believe that you can TRULY built up someone, to a place where they trust and are at peace with themselves. They have to trust it also, without you

If you're 'built up', you're confident in yourself no matter what someone else does or says. 

If you're built up you're not reliable on _one_ persons opinion. If it's a boyfriend who leaves his girl and she breaks down, she wasn't truly 'built up'. She didn't trust herself already. She counted on the boyfriend.

So of course you need other people, but first of all you need yourself.


----------



## Parrot

Kaboomz said:


> Drunk Parrot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like it damages too much so your case has been dismissed.
> 
> 
> 
> that's ok, i probably made up the statistics anyway
> 
> and no need to continue dismissing me, when you get bored, you can just stop replying
Click to expand...

I'm not bored, this is my thread, good sir! I just don't think your points are important enough for a long reply, since I'm on my phone. You're operating on confirmation bias and seem to be insisting your argument based on limited information.

And dismissing you in fun. You're like a battered dog who keeps coming back for more.


----------



## drmiller100

Kaboomz said:


> that's ok, i probably made up the statistics anyway
> 
> and no need to continue dismissing me, when you get bored, you can just stop replying



actually, there is a really cool button at the bottom of each post. what it does is invite volunteers to come along and read the post, and decide if the post violates the rules on this site.

One of the rules involves something called "trolling." I invite you to go read it.

The Parrot is all involved in "entertainment" as he is a 7. 

I have issues of control. Part of the whole 8 thing.

Have a great day!!!!


----------



## Parrot

@StMiller100 , Kaboomz is _my_ guest. He's not an idiot, I just don't like his argument. Seems heavily biased and predetermined. It's my fault for being dismissive, but alas, don't have the full energy to dedicate.

Now where did you come up with 10% are empaths? That doesn't sound right.


----------



## Kaboomz

Drunk Parrot said:


> Seems heavily biased and predetermined.


setting a standard for debate requires someone to maintain bias. it's not an attack on your intellect, it's simply an agonist to discussion. my personal opinion on the matter is redundant since the thread is already full of them 

why you think limited information is grounds for unwarranted credence, i don't know. all information is limited, especially the anecdotal type that surrounds this topic





> You're like a battered dog who keeps coming back for more


you see right through me...and my emotional investment in this thread


----------



## Parrot

Kaboomz said:


> setting a standard for debate requires someone to maintain bias. it's not an attack on your intellect, it's simply an agonist to discussion. my personal opinion on the matter is redundant since the thread is already full of them
> 
> why you think limited information is grounds for unwarranted credence, i don't know. all information is limited, especially the anecdotal type that surrounds this topic


I just have no desire to dignify your assumptions. Thus, I ridicule them like a 4 year old covering his ears screaming "I CAN"T HEAR YOU!"


----------



## Kaboomz

Drunk Parrot said:


> I just have no desire to dignify your assumptions. Thus, I ridicule them like a 4 year old covering his ears screaming "I CAN"T HEAR YOU!"


yes i've noticed

how magnanimous of you 

how would you prefer i offer an argument?


----------



## Parrot

Kaboomz said:


> Drunk Parrot said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just have no desire to dignify your assumptions. Thus, I ridicule them like a 4 year old covering his ears screaming "I CAN"T HEAR YOU!"
> 
> 
> 
> yes i've noticed
> 
> how magnanimous of you
> 
> how would you prefer i offer an argument?
Click to expand...

I would prefer not to argue over a topic I know way more about. Now, we can discuss things but...

1. ASPD is a disorder. Psychopathy is not classified in the DSM.
2. People have done harm to others for years. Admitting to having no emotional attachment and being naturally selfish has never been popular. A certain amount of loyalty has always been expected among one's own people.
3. Don't presume to know how I operate. Psychopaths, like all people, are a diverse group. The categorization is based on having a similar brain function. 
4. Studies have mostly been done on CRIMINAL psychopaths which is a fraction of all psychopaths.
5. Thus, this thread is designed around speculation and personal anecdotes, because there aren't many first person sources out there.
6. And thus, this thread is designed to provide information. I have learned from others and vice versa.

Just got off work, time to drink!


----------



## Kaboomz

Drunk Parrot said:


> I would prefer not to argue over a topic I know way more about. Now, we can discuss things but...
> 
> 1. ASPD is a disorder. Psychopathy is not classified in the DSM.
> 2. People have done harm to others for years. Admitting to having no emotional attachment and being naturally selfish has never been popular. A certain amount of loyalty has always been expected among one's own people.
> 3. Don't presume to know how I operate. Psychopaths, like all people, are a diverse group. The categorization is based on having a similar brain function.


aye aye, cap'n



> 4. Studies have mostly been done on CRIMINAL psychopaths which is a fraction of all psychopaths.
> 5. Thus, this thread is designed around speculation and personal anecdotes, because there aren't many first person sources out there.
> 6. And thus, this thread is designed to provide information. I have learned from others and vice versa.


why do you differentiate? aspergers isn't an official disorder anymore either yet the traits remain as diagnostic criteria. i mean, what sets the two apart? (aspd vs psychopathy / aspergers vs asd etc) the majority of people with aspd get diagnosed because they were either court ordered or forced into therapy via institutionalization, for demonstrating behavior that is associated with that dark triad stuff you posted. where is the distinction between aspd and this thing that is not classified in the dsm any longer?

is it not more rational to assume that everyone is capable of such behavior because we are inherently amoral animals, but that people who get caught or make careers out of crime have become dependent on it as a means of survival? rather than prosocial behavior that is associated with conscience and empathy? it's amazing how easily people abandon their morals, for example, simply because they confuse their wants with their needs. differentiating seems redundant. like you said yourself, we're all human




> Just got off work, time to drink!


yo ho


----------



## Parrot

Kaboomz said:


> why do you differentiate? aspergers isn't an official disorder anymore either yet the traits remain as diagnostic criteria. i mean, what sets the two apart? (aspd vs psychopathy / aspergers vs asd etc) the majority of people with aspd get diagnosed because they were either court ordered or forced into therapy via institutionalization, for demonstrating behavior that is associated with that dark triad stuff you posted. where is the distinction between aspd and this thing that is not classified in the dsm any longer?
> 
> is it not more rational to assume that everyone is capable of such behavior because we are inherently amoral animals, but that people who get caught or make careers out of crime have become dependent on it as a means of survival? rather than prosocial behavior that is associated with conscience and empathy? it's amazing how easily people abandon their morals, for example, simply because they confuse their wants with their needs. differentiating seems redundant. like you said yourself, we're all human


This is where you are confused. ASPD is about behavior. Psychopathy is about neurology. A psychopath's neurology makes us more predisposed to certain anti-social behavior as emotions are shallow, thus making morals more relative. There's also a natural need for higher levels of dopamine which causes more impulsivity. But, as I said, it's outward behavior vs internal mindset. I, and many other psychopaths, might have certain anti-social mindsets and fantasies; but may not manifest. For example, it's more likely that Christian Bale in American Psycho probably fantasized about everything. Someone doesn't make it to his position by getting away with murdering. But he could fantasize about it.

So, again, anyone can exhibit anti-social behavior just like any telephone can call someone. But psychopathy is a unique operating system, just like Aspergers/Schizophrenia/Schizoid/Narcissists (Who can also be anti-social)


----------



## Kaboomz

Drunk Parrot said:


> This is where you are confused. ASPD is about behavior. Psychopathy is about neurology. A psychopath's neurology makes us more predisposed to certain anti-social behavior as emotions are shallow, thus making morals more relative. There's also a natural need for higher levels of dopamine which causes more impulsivity. But, as I said, it's outward behavior vs internal mindset.


so delusional vs behavioral? all psychology is about neurology. aspd generally demonstrates low reactivity to dopamine, noradrenaline and sometimes an impaired amygdala caused by poor upbringing/trauma or a birth defect. schizo affective disorders are a result of cnvs mutations compromising neural dna and people with autism have been shown to have an excess of mirror neurons, overloading affective empathy at the cost of making them "face blind". even seasonal affective disorder is caused by too much serotonin being created during stress caused by no calcitriol. neuroplasticity doesn't make a disorder unique. it makes the human brain unique. psychopathy/aspd has been a clinical definition for impulsive anti social _behavior_ and it has been for like 200 years back when pinel first defined it from more delusional forms of anti social behavior such as schizophrenia 



> I, and many other psychopaths, might have certain anti-social mindsets and fantasies; but may not manifest. For example, it's more likely that Christian Bale in American Psycho probably fantasized about everything. Someone doesn't make it to his position by getting away with murdering. But he could fantasize about it.


american psycho was a parody of narcissistic personality disorder meeting capitalism. narcissists are fantasists. they are dangerous because they lack empathy and self awareness, but they are still fantasists. they create facades and use them for social validation while devaluing and discarding anything that threatens said supply, repeating ad nauseum. what's curious is that i was skipping through some earlier pages in this thread and noticed you already mentioned this mechanism...though only to assure those reading, that you weren't doing that 

why did you assume you exhibit "psychopathy" over something more clinical like run of the mill narcissism? i mean, yes, aspd have big egos...but they aren't easily threatened and not to point fingers, but people have been pushing your buttons in this thread for a good six months 

granted i haven't read through it all yet so that's not really THAT odd, i'm just curious why you self diagnosed? personality disorder runs in my family. my father was diagnosed dyssocial PD (aspd) while he was in prison, my mother had bpd (she's dead), my sister joined the police force so she could enjoy controlling others, and i was diagnosed with conduct disorder after i burnt down a show house lol. you can understand my interest?



> So, again, anyone can exhibit anti-social behavior just like any telephone can call someone. But psychopathy is a unique operating system, just like Aspergers/Schizophrenia/Schizoid/Narcissists (Who can also be anti-social)


the difference is that personality disorders are pervasive to the point that they affect your behavior in a chronic manner. they are all coping mechanisms caused by dysfunctional neurology , demonstrated via poor adaptation to their environment.

i do hope you lend credence to my pov. i stand to learn a lot when people have a point to prove, and you seem like you may be able to prove it...so if i antagonize you, take it as a compliment and an effort to milk your brain for my morning coffee 

is this more acceptable discussion? full disclosure


----------



## Parrot

@Kaboomz I suppose I associate myself differently from ASPD. Part of the discussion is to focus on those that won't be officially diagnosed. It also relays my own experiences and others have done the same. My official diagnoses are Bipolar II, moderate narcissism, and ADHD. Never had much conduct disorder. I relate more to the psychopathy definitions, though, rather than other cluster B.

So this thread is one of the therapeutic things I do, as well as going to a recovery group for amphetamine addiction.


----------



## Kaboomz

Drunk Parrot said:


> @Kaboomz I suppose I associate myself differently from ASPD. Part of the discussion is to focus on those that won't be officially diagnosed. It also relays my own experiences and others have done the same. My official diagnoses are Bipolar II, moderate narcissism, and ADHD. Never had much conduct disorder. I relate more to the psychopathy definitions, though, rather than other cluster B.
> 
> So this thread is one of the therapeutic things I do, as well as going to a recovery group for amphetamine addiction.


that's cool. i have bad attention problems too...let's call it life in hindsight 

are you selling them meth, or are you an addict?


----------



## Parrot

Kaboomz said:


> Drunk Parrot said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Kaboomz I suppose I associate myself differently from ASPD. Part of the discussion is to focus on those that won't be officially diagnosed. It also relays my own experiences and others have done the same. My official diagnoses are Bipolar II, moderate narcissism, and ADHD. Never had much conduct disorder. I relate more to the psychopathy definitions, though, rather than other cluster B.
> 
> So this thread is one of the therapeutic things I do, as well as going to a recovery group for amphetamine addiction.
> 
> 
> 
> that's cool. i have bad attention problems too...let's call it life in hindsight
> 
> are you selling them meth, or are you an addict?
Click to expand...

I was regularly taking 2-3 times more adderall/Vyvanse per day than prescribed and staying up days at a time. I used to sell but became more of a buyer as I'd run out after 17-18 days and had to buy from others the last 12 days.

Tbh, I don't have the same anti social views and traits as I used to. I'm much more calm. If anything, no one in real life should be able to see anything wrong with me. I have what's in my mind, but I'm fairly normal in behavior. And my mind isn't consistent. I think having an online platform to discuss would be good for anti social types whether psychopath or sociopath. After all, many criminals/serial killers didn't have an outlet thus they brood Ed on it.


----------



## Kaboomz

Drunk Parrot said:


> I was regularly taking 2-3 times more adderall/Vyvanse per day than prescribed and staying up days at a time. I used to sell but became more of a buyer as I'd run out after 17-18 days and had to buy from others the last 12 days.
> 
> Tbh, I don't have the same anti social views and traits as I used to. I'm much more calm. If anything, no one in real life should be able to see anything wrong with me. I have what's in my mind, but I'm fairly normal in behavior. And my mind isn't consistent. I think having an online platform to discuss would be good for anti social types whether psychopath or sociopath. After all, many criminals/serial killers didn't have an outlet thus they brood Ed on it.


i can't imagine brooding on my behavior, i'm just a product of the environment 

sometimes i wonder whether regular folk aren't half as asleep as they seem, and if they're just far more consistently self-deceptive. how about you?


----------



## Parrot

Kaboomz said:


> i can't imagine brooding on my behavior, i'm just a product of the environment
> 
> sometimes i wonder whether regular folk aren't half as asleep as they seem, and if they're just far more consistently self-deceptive. how about you?


I don't brood. Nothing wrong with self-reflection, though

I don't think people are that way. Some might be, but I think they believe the things they say.


----------



## Kaboomz

Drunk Parrot said:


> I don't brood. Nothing wrong with self-reflection, though


nothing wrong with masturbation either, but it's far less fun than a three way. 



> I don't think people are that way. Some might be, but I think they believe the things they say.


how idealistic of you 

how do you see yourself, when you perform this self reflection?


----------



## Kaboomz

To Kill for Sport said:


> Hmm...fair enough. Yes brain pain is horrid, I basically either have to injure myself otherwise I loose control of my temper and easily get to red rage.


yeh, though i sort of like getting mad in a way. it's cathartic, like bleeding a refrigerator. my dad gets it too. he has tons of diagnoses but the big one he had even before prison was intermittent explosive disorder. i remember he tried to explain how he couldn't control his temper at all and was sorry for always beating us, but i knocked over his beer half way through the lecture and he beat the shit out of me before he could finish lol. definitely not fun if it's caused by pure frustration though. that sort of stuff puts me in to a self destructive cycle where i'd rather knock myself out than let it continue :S



> The internet is my main vent. Because although most people have bad thoughts whenever I've been frank they've just seemed quite scared (so edgy right).


"I never gave anybody hell! I just told the truth and they thought it was hell." - Harry S Truman





> Also BTW I believe in empathy as much as I believe in logic. Both are pretty abstract ways of essentially processing the world, and are not exclusive. I think it is important to be aware that they both also draw on a wide range of knowledge and some instinct. To be emphatic without understanding the situation can come across as patronising, and to be logical without considering the others emotions can be ineffective and boorish.
> 
> I'm not sure I have empathy as a default but its definitely something I use a lot, and there are things I will do to genuinely try and make the world a better place.


sentiment is far more acceptable. we are social creatures and people will draw their own conclusions based on heuristic experiences, but it's still a calculated response. logic is useful, empathy is useful, objective experience is real though, and i don't understand why someone who professes to have shallow effect/poor stimulus to social castigation would fall further towards the sentiment side of things. why would someone who grows up in the jungle come out and start talking latin, sort of thing

i think empathy is intrinsic to the human experience, but emotion clouds it in the moment and provides clarity via hindsight


----------



## Tsubaki

Hm, this is a very interesting topic and I would like to throw something in. I am personally by no means a psychopath, but I have been in therapy for some other issues that are more along the lines of histrionic and narcissistic.

I personally think that every person has a natural inclination about being affected by others' emotions or not. For example, while a very empathetic friend of mine was already really uncomfortable and feeling guilty when I feigned sadness as a joke, I tend to look at the person, maybe get a few physical responses like a slight tightening feeling around the chest or stomach area, but usually react fairly calmly, just a little less contained than usual).

On the other hand, I have a psychopath friend and we had a lecture by a war journalist about refugees in the middle east. I was sitting in the front row, listening to him, being mostly annoyed at the stupidity of a lot of people in his stories and actually getting some sick satisfaction from parts of it. I did not empathize with the people, but in the end, it still had some sort of effect on me. My friend used the time to study biology and told me that the whole thing was just boring as hell.

Aside from that natural inclination to empathize with others, I think that a lot of it is learned behavior as well. Of course, if you are naturally empathetic, it will be very normal for you to consider others and learn to care about them and I think that many kids also learn it on their own. When I was young, I took my self-centered choleric dad as a role model and since I was not naturally inclined to care about others, I never learned it up to the point where I was about 13. The interesting thing is that even though i was always able to feel empathy and identify with others, in most situations, the thought just never came up. Others were - and still are - no "real people" to me. In my book, nobody had a reason to complain when I was acting selfish and aloof. Everyone was just hostile towards me when I was not put in the spotlight and it was completely natural that my company had the highest priority over anything else to other people. Basically, others turned into actual human beings as soon as I put myself in their shoes which I just hardly did since it was just like: "Why would I try to put myself in the shoe of a bed, a table or a book? That's basically the same"

However, later on, I was forced to consider other people's feelings and sort of developed a routine with it. I actually started caring, even though it was just due instrumental conditioning and it's basically more of a reminder that gets activated in my brain in certain situations.

What I am trying to say is that empathy and care for others really is a spectrum and it's easier for some people to learn it than for others. If you are handicapped in that area, you can still learn how to act and what to consider, but I am unsure if that would ever reach the level of someone who is truly empathetic.


----------



## Clayfighter

Winter Moon said:


> I'm talking about *you* not contributing, not me. I also never expressed it as a concern and also clarified that in case you assumed so.
> 
> What I did was call out the irony of calling out another person's posts a waste of time when your post itself did not contribute much to the topic at hand.


Its not really that ironic if DP himself asked me to come on the forum to read it. You just dont understand the context. Not my problem. Bye.


----------



## Clayfighter

Kaboomz said:


> that's sort of funny mate. unlike the OP i got diagnosed for constant retarded behavior because i can't help it. i'm just trying to figure out how someone who looks like a chicken, acts like a chicken, thinks like a chicken and treats other chickens with respect, is actually a fox because he has some subjective baseline for comparison that no other fox could possibly have.
> 
> what do you think?


What do I think?

Lol, funny you should ask. I don't think anything about it. I dont actually bother with categorizing humans into labels or trying to figure out if they fit. Labels are descriptive of people after we have observed them. I find it somewhat useless to categorize an entire group of people with a label and assume they are all the same thing. 

What I do instead is look at the behavior and try to form a conclusion about that behavior irrespective of _personality, behavioral, or neurobiological disorder / label / MBTI / and etc_

Psychopathy is a list of traits. There are a few major hallmarks of the condition, but its more or less a spectrum of traits that rests on a continuum. In other words each psychopathic trait is on a sliding scale and all the dials can be turned all the way up, or they can be moderate to severe or they can be barely/slightly existent.

If any of us had the dials turned all the way to max we would be in prison. Hardcore psychopaths are different from even other psychopaths. 'Shock Richie' would be an example of that.

Literally everyone is somewhere on the psychopathic continuum and I really don't care to discuss the exact place they fall on said scale. Not only that but high scoring psychopaths can be very different from each other as some traits can not be expressed and others can show more prevalence. 

So if you want to ask me what I think about all this.....then I would have to say I find psychopathy to be an interesting topic, but I don't care to spend all day trying to figure out just exactly how psychopathic someone is. Its a futile effort. I'm psychopathic myself, but personally I try to distance myself from the label, because psychopathy is not exactly something you are or you aren't. Id rather not have others form conclusions on me based on that label.


----------



## Luckyshot

Drunk Parrot said:


> I'm just used to people like you coming in the thread, offering nothing, and then leaving. Do you have anything insightful to offer or are _you_ going to tell _ME_ how things work??


Simply calling you out on your bullshit hombre. 
This subject indeed is fascinating but you need some serious fact checking .I bet you are not anywhere near psychopath, somewhat disturbed at most.


----------



## Kaboomz

Clayfighter said:


> What do I think?
> 
> Lol, funny you should ask. I don't think anything about it. I dont actually bother with categorizing humans into labels or trying to figure out if they fit. Labels are descriptive of people after we have observed them. I find it somewhat useless to categorize an entire group of people with a label and assume they are all the same thing.


isn't that what you just did by labeling "humans"? why label yourself differently? i mean what makes you sit down and analyse your behavior relative to things you can't even relate to? isn't it like defining your behavior via something like a tree or a bus stop? why do you care how you behave relative to other people?




> Psychopathy is a list of traits. There are a few major hallmarks of the condition, but its more or less a spectrum of traits that rests on a continuum. In other words each psychopathic trait is on a sliding scale and all the dials can be turned all the way up, or they can be moderate to severe or they can be barely/slightly existent.
> 
> If any of us had the dials turned all the way to max we would be in prison. Hardcore psychopaths are different from even other psychopaths. 'Shock Richie' would be an example of that.
> 
> Literally everyone is somewhere on the psychopathic continuum and I really don't care to discuss the exact place they fall on said scale. Not only that but high scoring psychopaths can be very different from each other as some traits can not be expressed and others can show more prevalence.


do you think it is something distinct to human beings, or are animals on this scale too?




> So if you want to ask me what I think about all this.....then I would have to say I find psychopathy to be an interesting topic, but I don't care to spend all day trying to figure out just exactly how psychopathic someone is. Its a futile effort. I'm psychopathic myself, but personally I try to distance myself from the label, because psychopathy is not exactly something you are or you aren't. Id rather not have others form conclusions on me based on that label.


distancing yourself? by associating and defining yourself directly with it? 

i do agree it's a smoke and mirrors term, i just like to understand why certain people view themselves as personifying it relative to others. back to cats and dogs, i see no difference between a lizard, a man and an ostrich in terms of self interest, except the man is most capable of cognitive dissonance toward it. if someone like ted bundy was used as an example of someone with an ostrich mind, i don't expect many people would be sticking their heads in the sand, but because there is no other point of reference, people can play the game of confirmation bias in their own mind. however if they do have a point of reference, that is something worth talking about, isn't it? because how often do you get to chat with someone so one dimensional? it's like giving doug the dog the ability to speak. it's new and exciting and worth discussing. like this thread, it's like discussing art with a blind man. you aren't gonna find such a unique perspective in an art gallery, know what i mean?



Tsubaki the Reindeer said:


> What I am trying to say is that empathy and care for others really is a spectrum and it's easier for some people to learn it than for others. If you are handicapped in that area, you can still learn how to act and what to consider, but I am unsure if that would ever reach the level of someone who is truly empathetic.


i also think that it's impossible to truly care about other people, to even really _see_ them, if you're preoccupied with what they might think of you, which is really funny, considering most people think not caring about their opinion is the height of arrogance


----------



## Clayfighter

Kaboomz said:


> isn't that what you just did by labeling "humans"? why label yourself differently? i mean what makes you sit down and analyse your behavior relative to things you can't even relate to? isn't it like defining your behavior via something like a tree or a bus stop? why do you care how you behave relative to other people?


Its a reference point and its convenient most of the time. Human is just a term for our species. You don't have much of an argument there as psychology is not taxonomy, but whatever you can waste my time with incorrect analogies. I don't mind.





Kaboomz said:


> do you think it is something distinct to human beings, or are animals on this scale too?


Maybe, in other primates. I don't really care to think about that though.



Kaboomz said:


> distancing yourself? by associating and defining yourself directly with it?


This is an online forum. I don't care about you or anyone here, and none of you will ever get to know me personally. I interact with people online, but I don't have much to hide here so I can associate with certain terms for convenience and a reference point for the sake of the discussion, but in real life I would not be talking like this. I would be singing a completely different tune. Also for the sake of discussion I can grant certain premises that I don't necessarily care to normally espouse. 

Don't try to read much into my words or psychoanalyze me based on something as stupid and trivial as that. If you are supposedly an ENTP (as I think ive seen you labeled elsewhere) you should understand this mindset better than anyone.... being an NE dom. 

But see what I mean about classifying people? I just did it by assuming I know how you should act based on an ENTP label.... Not everyone is the same. 

Once again don't try and read too much into that, you might hurt your brain. I was just using that as an example.





Kaboomz said:


> i do agree it's a smoke and mirrors term, i just like to understand why certain people view themselves as personifying it relative to others. back to cats and dogs, i see no difference between a lizard, a man and an ostrich in terms of self interest, except the man is most capable of cognitive dissonance toward it. if someone like ted bundy was used as an example of someone with an ostrich mind, i don't expect many people would be sticking their heads in the sand, but because there is no other point of reference, people can play the game of confirmation bias in their own mind. however if they do have a point of reference, that is something worth talking about, isn't it? because how often do you get to chat with someone so one dimensional? it's like giving doug the dog the ability to speak. it's new and exciting and worth discussing. like this thread, it's like discussing art with a blind man. you aren't gonna find such a unique perspective in an art gallery, know what i mean?
> 
> 
> 
> i also think that it's impossible to truly care about other people, to even really _see_ them, if you're preoccupied with what they might think of you, which is really funny, considering most people think not caring about their opinion is the height of arrogance


You have actually just highlighted the very reason I distance myself from such a term. Thanks, now I don't have to explain it. I don't need people like you playing 100 questions poking and prodding me like a science project. That's why I try not to refer to myself under such criteria. 

And if you try and do that to me (or again.... besides this last post) I will ignore you.


----------



## Kaboomz

Clayfighter said:


> Its a reference point and its convenient most of the time. Human is just a term for our species. You don't have much of an argument there as psychology is not taxonomy, but whatever you can waste my time with incorrect analogies. I don't mind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe, in other primates. I don't really care to think about that though.
> 
> 
> 
> This is an online forum. I don't care about you or anyone here, and none of you will ever get to know me personally. I interact with people online, but I don't have much to hide here so I can associate with certain terms for convenience and a reference point for the sake of the discussion, but in real life I would not be talking like this. I would be singing a completely different tune. Also for the sake of discussion I can grant certain premises that I don't necessarily care to normally espouse.
> 
> Don't try to read much into my words or psychoanalyze me based on something as stupid and trivial as that. If you are supposedly an ENTP (as I think ive seen you labeled elsewhere) you should understand this mindset better than anyone.... being an NE dom.
> 
> But see what I mean about classifying people? I just did it by assuming I know how you should act based on an ENTP label.... Not everyone is the same.
> 
> Once again don't try and read too much into that, you might hurt your brain. I was just using that as an example.


i'm just interested in learning the ins and outs. you came here, told everyone you were this and that, later redefined the term to include everyone in the human race, and told anyone questioning you to stfu lol. it's turning into a theme here. people shout "look at me" then get all weird when someone does, trying to turn attention to something they feel is more in their control. i get it, i just wish you'd feel comfortable sharing. i'd be happy to share, but you've already pointed out you don't give a shit, so why bother?




> You have actually just highlighted the very reason I distance myself from such a term. Thanks, now I don't have to explain it. I don't need people like you playing 100 questions poking and prodding me like a science project. That's why I try not to refer to myself under such criteria.


you're not trying very hard. you've been doing it for like 60 pages 





> And if you try and do that to me (or again.... besides this last post) I will ignore you.


threatening me with the silent treatment already? at least that parrot dude tried to shame me first haha. that's the problem with social validation. people who rely on it think it's a weapon rather than a weakness  anyway, i'll assume this is the point of no return for us, mate. so thanks for your point of view regardless.

all the best


----------



## Clayfighter

@Kaboomz I'm not redefining the term. You just don't think things through before you post. Psychopathy has always been on a spectrum and everyone has some degree of certain traits. You act like you can't comprehend this or anything else and the reason I 'threatened' the silent treatment was because I read parrot and your conversation and it seemed to be a complete joke. This is just a courtesy reply as it will be my last post towards you. If you want to understand the term as I've defined it you can Google it and see that I'm not redefining anything. If you want to learn, the resources are out there. I'm not going to play your bait and switch game.


----------



## Kaboomz

Clayfighter said:


> @Kaboomz I'm not redefining the term. You just don't think things through before you post. Psychopathy has always been on a spectrum and everyone has some degree of certain traits. You act like you can't comprehend this or anything else and the reason I 'threatened' the silent treatment was because I read parrot and your conversation and it seemed to be a complete joke. This is just a courtesy reply as it will be my last post towards you. If you want to understand the term as I've defined it you can Google it and see that I'm not redefining anything. If you want to learn, the resources are out there. I'm not going to play your bait and switch game.


as you've defined it, or as you've defined your perception? because the two aren't in sync. you said you see other people as extensions of yourself. that's atypical narcissism and has next to nothing to do with anti social behavior. it's codependent psychology at it's very core. so you see why i find it difficult to "comprehend" things like this when you say one thing yet do another? 

i understand why our discussion seemed like a joke. let me put it in perspective. if we go back to the blind man and art analogy, it's probably advisable to find out whether the dude's actually blind, or just refusing to open his eyes, wouldn't you agree? i had absolutely no reason to think one way or another about the OP except his initial reaction to my post was akin to the blind man making fun of my appearance. back to this problem of synchronization, then

anyways, all the best. again


----------



## Mirkwood




----------



## Parrot

Luckyshot said:


> Simply calling you out on your bullshit hombre.
> This subject indeed is fascinating but you need some serious fact checking .I bet you are not anywhere near psychopath, somewhat disturbed at most.


Thanks bud.

@Kaboomz those things aren't off limits, just done talking to you, for now. Your interaction with Clayfighter just proved you're not here to contribute anything worthwhile.

@To Kill for Sport Dealing with the consequences is no fun. I prefer taking verbal swipes at people but I rarely intend to actually hurt them.


----------



## Kaboomz

Drunk Parrot said:


> Your interaction with Clayfighter just proved you're not here to contribute anything worthwhile.





kaboomz said:


> my personal opinion is that empathy is a human delusion people feel when their self interest is threatened. sort of like when people hold their breath on a precipice. it's internal projection, requiring a deep level of emotional investment in whatever is threatened, so in a sense they may feel dread if someone is put in mortal danger...or they may feel dread if i burn their house down. the mistake is assuming it comes from the external world and is somehow relevant to anyone besides themselves. like you mentioned in your original post, people "turn off" empathy when it's inconvenient...or most do anyway. sometimes you meet people with true compassion, but it's rare. most of the time the group delusion is just set aside so the mob can tear whatever it needs to apart, and continuing living in dreamland, where everyone is basically nice





kaboomz said:


> why do you differentiate? aspergers isn't an official disorder anymore either yet the traits remain as diagnostic criteria. i mean, what sets the two apart? (aspd vs psychopathy / aspergers vs asd etc) the majority of people with aspd get diagnosed because they were either court ordered or forced into therapy via institutionalization, for demonstrating behavior that is associated with that dark triad stuff you posted. where is the distinction between aspd and this thing that is not classified in the dsm any longer?
> 
> is it not more rational to assume that everyone is capable of such behavior because we are inherently amoral animals, but that people who get caught or make careers out of crime have become dependent on it as a means of survival? rather than prosocial behavior that is associated with conscience and empathy? it's amazing how easily people abandon their morals, for example, simply because they confuse their wants with their needs. differentiating seems redundant. like you said yourself, we're all human





kaboomz said:


> so do you really think demographic has no bearing on psychological disorders? when social anarchy or draconian rule take precedent the social classes tend to create environments devoid of authority or law within their own system, which can only encourage those predisposed to criminal behavior.
> 
> i have no idea about the prevalence of mental disorder in tribal societies that exist outside of our culture, but in any dominant social structure there is a distinct resistance to authority. i think ASPD is most predominant in e. europe and south america as of the new century, and both places represent the fringe of western civilization, where authority is still present, but not strong enough to maintain control. the result is poor living standards, low law enforcement, lack of work and general social despondence. that's the general environment that originates most personality disorders. kids with no authority figures, no future and a social structure that rewards kill or be killed. such an environment seems naturally advantageous to someone who's basic psychology follows the same logic


i'm perfectly happy to contribute, i just don't see the point when you completely ignore anything i say that isn't complimentary to your ego. in fact, worse than this - you take it as a personal insult that anyone would even question your absolutist perspective, even when you admit that you were being stupid and dismissive (and still failing to even consider the point)



Drunk Parrot said:


> Kaboomz is _my_ guest. He's not an idiot, I just don't like his argument. It's my fault for being dismissive, but alas, don't have the full energy to dedicate.


so what option is left to me? i don't mind abandoning the topic and talking about you instead. we got a good six pages out of that (despite your lack of energy). i guess you figured i wasn't taking it seriously, which is a little sad, since you genuinely had my full interest for every post. like i said, i think it made you a little uncomfortable. i wish this thread was more than a circle jerk, but when in rome!



Mirkwood said:


>


compassion is a reflection of intelligence imo






wise old dumbo


----------



## drmiller100

To Kill for Sport said:


> Also BTW I believe in empathy as much as I believe in logic. Both are pretty abstract ways of essentially processing the world, and are not exclusive. I think it is important to be aware that they both also draw on a wide range of knowledge and some instinct. To be emphatic without understanding the situation can come across as patronising, and to be logical without considering the others emotions can be ineffective and boorish.
> 
> I'm not sure I have empathy as a default but its definitely something I use a lot, and there are things I will do to genuinely try and make the world a better place.


I read somewhere here there are two flavors: those born to lack of empathy, and those who were trained from an early age to not have empathy. 

The former is much harder to learn empathy, the latter, it depends. The spectrum comments make sense to me. 

I know I have less empathy than most. I'm an NT, and I was raised to guard my emotions. There is a term somewhere which is "cognitive empathy". To me, this is using Logic or T to remember others have emotions and feelings, and trying to figure them out. Logic is a HORRIBLE tool to unravel feelings, but if it is all ya got, you use it.

Some people I consider Empaths. They actually FEEL other people's feelings. I believe in it. I made a stat up saying 10 percent of people are empaths, and by my definition, it is true - there is indeed a top 10 percent of empathic people. And many of them can't imagine other people can't feel other people's feelings. 
Hell, I barely notice my own.

FWIW, Sport, I think you confuse sympathy with empathy. Brene Brown has some Ted Talks and books about this subject. 

As for violence, I'm an NT with some self preservation skills. I try pretty hard to get the other guy to swing first. I haven't been in a violent altercation since junior high, but I have looked at a few people with a smile on my face, and hope, but no one ever wants to play. 
I've also just sent people away out of my life who annoy me or someone I protect. 

Pain and pleasure are very close together in the brain. pretty common people self harm to manage stress and pain. not totally healthy, but it is what it is. 
I don't get pleasure from inflicting pain. Most of me is not a sadist. If someone hurts someone under my protection, or I deem a total asshole, the anger does bring me energy and power, and I do amp up. To me, that is part of being an enneagram 8, and that understanding has helped me a lot. I now like that about me, where before I was embarassed, and a bit afraid of it.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

@StMiller100 Opps, sorry mate I'm a butt dyslexic I get very easily muddled. 
When I do anything to myself I am careful, because I don't want to become ill or noticed (so hidden bruises). Its like how crying can feel very good at times, but its no where near as much effort nor as evident. Its not healthy but it's not anyone elses buisness, and before I used to drink alot but that made me very ill (and was expensive) I used to burn plastic and inhale the fumes as well. I'm so frugal.
My parents aren't super emotional, but it would never have been punished. I think I was born this way. When I was alot younger I had a lot of trouble connecting with people, and in my friends I do seek logic in them. With feeling people I too easily offend, so they dislike me. But I struggle to make deeper bonds, because I do not share how I feel and easily get bored.

@Drunk Parrot I've only once hurt someone without permission (I was like six and punched an older boy, and I guess me and my brother used to fight all the time but TBH he got into trouble for it). 

I do alot of film work on mental illness an terrorism. I make everything too close. I find if someone describes to me how they feel I can vividly imagine it, touch, smell, fear, exhalation. And I've always been able to think from a lot of different viewpoints.

I am very bound up in my own morals and the notion of control. But I do start to breakdown very quick if I don't keep very busy. If I feel without purpose I regress into bulemia and hurting myself (its like I'm my own tiger mom), I don't think I'd ever commit suicide, but I do seek constant validation and nowdays I tend to get it.

If I am actually pschopathic then I've tied myself in all kinds of knots. but TBH I can't be bothered with an exitential crisis, back to work I go. I'll probs be burnt out by 40 and smoking 40 a day, but hey then will be the time for me to all the drugs and drinking and glue sniffing I want, then jump off a bridge (sweet release) and have a bad ass legacy. 

This was a joke but it sounds pretty great, put that in the calender. God I hope ethenasia becomes legal.


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

Clayfighter said:


> Its not really that ironic if DP himself asked me to come on the forum to read it. You just dont understand the context. Not my problem. Bye.


Ok not your problem. Never was my problem. 
Have fun wherever you're going.


----------



## 1000BugsNightSky

Here's a rest for different types of empathy:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...ggfMAA&usg=AFQjCNERuZ0zK-_iOFKiluz8QBfGspIoNg

Read after taking test:

* *





Cognitive empathy is like perspective taking whereas emotional empathy is more so feeling others' emotions. 
Two types of cognitive include perspective taking and fantasizing. PT is like understanding another person's POV. F is imagining yourself in another person's situation, such as imaging yourself to be the main character of a book our movie. Emotional empathy types include emotional concern and personal distress. EC sounds like traditional empathy, where you feel the emotions another person may be feeling. PD is very related to selfs problems but idr exactly. 

I scored very high on pt, next highest on F,decent on EC, and very low on PD, which sounds about right.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

Winter Moon said:


> Here's a rest for different types of empathy:
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...ggfMAA&usg=AFQjCNERuZ0zK-_iOFKiluz8QBfGspIoNg [/Spoiler]


I scored really high on PT then exactly half on everything else, what can I say...I literally have no idea about the implication of this, but since I had to grade it myself I care a bit. Oh time I would of, could of wasted on other things.


----------



## Tsubaki

Winter Moon said:


> Here's a rest for different types of empathy:
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...ggfMAA&usg=AFQjCNERuZ0zK-_iOFKiluz8QBfGspIoNg


This test was pretty interesting and I might look into that topic a little more. My results were pretty underwhelming with merely 50% at FS as my highest, followed up by PT with 35%, PD with 28% and EC with 14%.

I think that this really proves the point about differences “learned empathy“ and actual empathy. I am very well able to put myself in the shoes of others and if it serves my needs, I will do it, but there is no real emotional response. My therapist called some of my behavioral patterns histrionic and from what I understand, that holds some truth for myself. For example, whenever I accidently hurt someone, it's my trained instinct to say something like “Oh my god, I am so sorry, are you okay?“ But it's basically just me trying to get myself out of the situation without being blamed for it. A concrete example was when some relatives that I hardly know where ober with their children and I played with them in the pool in the garden. The girl was pretty hyperactive and I proposed to her a few genuinely stupid ideas just for fun. She did it and accidently hit her head and started crying. Immediately, I knew what to do, took her out of the water, hugged her, asked her where it hurt and if I should get her mum over. When she came, I said in my most concerned voice that the girl was getting a little too adventurous, that I wasn't sure if I should still let her do it, but she had so much fun and it was really an unfortunate accident. She thanked me for taking care of her daughter and trying to help and I had nothing more to do.

There are countless times when it just seems like others would feel something. Like when a girl collapsed next to me and had an epileptic shock. I just looked down at her and thought: “Well, they're going to have fun cleaning that up“.

Interstingly, I do experience that kind of empathy a bit when someone is crying really heavily. However that varies in odd ways. One time, I was really irritated after I saw a woman crying on the street and felt sort of bad for not walking up to hera and asking what was up, however, when my best friend cried at school one time, I thought to myself: “okay, so either her parents got divorced or one of her dogs died. I'm betting on the dog“


----------



## piano

Winter Moon said:


> Here's a rest for different types of empathy:
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...ggfMAA&usg=AFQjCNERuZ0zK-_iOFKiluz8QBfGspIoNg
> 
> Read after taking test:
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cognitive empathy is like perspective taking whereas emotional empathy is more so feeling others' emotions.
> Two types of cognitive include perspective taking and fantasizing. PT is like understanding another person's POV. F is imagining yourself in another person's situation, such as imaging yourself to be the main character of a book our movie. Emotional empathy types include emotional concern and personal distress. EC sounds like traditional empathy, where you feel the emotions another person may be feeling. PD is very related to selfs problems but idr exactly.
> 
> I scored very high on pt, next highest on F,decent on EC, and very low on PD, which sounds about right.


PT = 4+3+3+2+4+4+3=23 (82%)
FS = 3+4+3+4+3+3+4=24 (86%)
EC = 4+3+4+3+4+4+4=26 (93%)
PD = 2+3+4+3+2+2+1=17 (61%)

cognitive empathy is more cerebral in comparison to emotional empathy. FS and PD are self-oriented whereas PT and EC are other-oriented. FS is fictional perspective-taking accompanied with secondhand feelings. PD is less rational and more instinctual, akin to self-preservation. PT is a more realistic and rational approach to perspective-taking. EC is empathy in its purest form.

i feel like those who score high on PT but low on everything else are more inclined to use it as a manipulation tactic, which is an interesting, albeit more sinister, take on how we traditionally view empathy. so, *tl;dr* i'm a crybaby with a bleeding heart and zero self-preservation instincts.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

@Razorsharp I'm I guess a bit Psychopathic (but it's a sliding scale TBH), but lets not box stuff up to make it manageable. Because most psychopaths make themselves a strict set of rules out of fear (of being imprisoned or ostracized) that allows them to function socially. I do think about killing, including myself, but I won't do it and I've got a good grip on my anger so it wouldn't be an in the moment thing either. If I find someone boring I just won't socialise with them, some people are genuinely interesting I will respect that and enjoy their company (this is pretty much exclusively NT's I guess but there's an F or two who I'm fond of, lol boxing). I've never seen anyone as a toy, probably because I've got better things to do and I'm a workaholic. Unless someone was terrible I would not mistreat them because that is a stupid thing to do, and I don't get off on petty cruelty. I like being validated and meaningful interaction, so I like other people. But I'm fine being alone for a week or two, but after a while I get bored. I think most people have "dark" thoughts, it's just how you manage them. Admitting them to yourself is healthy, because otherwise it'll eat away at you. I don't think emotions are a detriment, but that the should be tempered with objectivity because that is also a way to further one understanding and to broaden one's perspective so it is not just based around a couple of people or your own experiences. I am not content with only knowing myself, but that's because nothing is simple and the world is interesting. I genuinely try to make the world better through my lifestyle (as much as I can afford) and through informing people of the motives of others, whether it be terrorism, mental health, sexism, or racial inequality. Because I firmly believe that to see one's own ills as a fault of an oppressed group is naive, and to be moved by the words of a single other person is a great disservice to one's self. Objectivity does not nesscerilly mean you see people as objects, in fact it is a basic function within all human's, it can just mean you are not as emotionally affected by certain things and therefore push past common morality. This can both be to hurt or to help, depending on your opinion of others and your own personal morality. So you could see people as toys I guess? But to be honest anyone who could be a "toy" would probably be pretty boring. 
I am a bit calculating, but I don't think it is unwise to consider your actions, also I am a woman so it really doesn't hurt. To do something with out knowing why or considering the consequences is stupid, I might put my neck out but only if it was for something I truly cared for.


----------



## drmiller100

To Kill for Sport said:


> . Unless someone was terrible I would not mistreat them because that is a stupid thing to do, and I don't get off on petty cruelty. I like being validated and meaningful interaction, so I like other people. But I'm fine being alone for a week or two, but after a while I get bored. I think most people have "dark" thoughts, it's just how you manage them. Admitting them to yourself is healthy, because otherwise it'll eat away at you. I don't think emotions are a detriment, but that the should be tempered with objectivity because that is also a way to further one understanding and to broaden one's perspective so it is not just based around a couple of people or your own experiences. I am not content with only knowing myself, but that's because nothing is simple and the world is interesting. I genuinely try to make the world better through my lifestyle (as much as I can afford) and through informing people of the motives of others, whether it be terrorism, mental health, sexism, or racial inequality. Because I firmly believe that to see one's own ills as a fault of an oppressed group is naive, and to be moved by the words of a single other person is a great disservice to one's self. Objectivity does not nesscerilly mean you see people as objects, in fact it is a basic function within all human's, it can just mean you are not as emotionally affected by certain things and therefore push past common morality. This can both be to hurt or to help, depending on your opinion of others and your own personal morality. So you could see people as toys I guess? But to be honest anyone who could be a "toy" would probably be pretty boring.
> I am a bit calculating, but I don't think it is unwise to consider your actions, also I am a woman so it really doesn't hurt. To do something with out knowing why or considering the consequences is stupid, I might put my neck out but only if it was for something I truly cared for.


I relate to some of what you write. As I get older, I want to help others more, and I stick my neck out too much. Someday it may get chopped upon again, but meanwhile I'm fucking ALIVE and living life.

You would be soooooo much fun to date if you were near my age.


----------



## Parrot

drmiller100 said:


> You would be soooooo much fun to date if you were near my age.


I'd date you if you were female, lived near me, were my age, good looking, and with a completely different personality :tongue:

Just kidding, you're charming just the way you are :laughing:


----------



## To Kill for Sport

drmiller100 said:


> You would be soooooo much fun to date if you were near my age.


I hate dating younger people though
@Drunk Parrot Sthaaappp :blushed:


----------



## MollyG

To Kill for Sport said:


> @MollyG It's interesting to see how they react, to others emotions laid bare. There is nothing so personal as vulnerability, and no greater undermining of it when you cannot hope to see it a way which is not objective. Emotions are like a drug, sometimes I feel them, but they also release my worst tendencies since I mainly feel anger or crippling sadness, but are still complexly enjoyable. But to be told to have empathy but not be abe to comprehend it is alienating. It does not excuse their mistreatment though, and I am sorry if you have suffered unfairly. I'm pretty f**ked up so I'd never have a child, also my mom almost died having my brother so it scares me...also I like gurls 80% of the time, but everyone I go out with is crazy and I get bored after 2 weeks.
> 
> BTW guys I wasn't having a psychotic break I was eating a load of nutmeg over about a month, I didn't think it had much of an effect, but in fact I was having auditory hallucinations from it building up in my system and became a lot more suggestable. I've stopped now.


This actually kind of makes sense so thank you. I'm sorry about your mother xx


----------



## To Kill for Sport

MollyG said:


> This actually kind of makes sense so thank you. I'm sorry about your mother xx


Aww cheers kitten, you know shes fine now. Just owned cancer. She's my favourite parent. I'm glad it was helpful roud:


----------



## drmiller100

Drunk Parrot said:


> I'd date you if you were female, lived near me, were my age, good looking, and with a completely different personality :tongue:
> 
> Just kidding, you're charming just the way you are :laughing:


Do you know how to keep a parrot from exploding when you fuck it?

Wrap it with duck tape.


----------



## drmiller100

To Kill for Sport said:


> I hate dating younger people though
> :blushed:


LOL The age of consent is 18 here in the states. You probably can't legally date anyone much younger than you!


----------



## Razorsharp

To Kill for Sport said:


> @Razorsharp I'm I guess a bit Psychopathic (but it's a sliding scale TBH), but lets not box stuff up to make it manageable. Because most psychopaths make themselves a strict set of rules out of fear (of being imprisoned or ostracized) that allows them to function socially. I do think about killing, including myself, but I won't do it and I've got a good grip on my anger so it wouldn't be an in the moment thing either. If I find someone boring I just won't socialise with them, some people are genuinely interesting I will respect that and enjoy their company (this is pretty much exclusively NT's I guess but there's an F or two who I'm fond of, lol boxing). I've never seen anyone as a toy, probably because I've got better things to do and I'm a workaholic. Unless someone was terrible I would not mistreat them because that is a stupid thing to do, and I don't get off on petty cruelty. I like being validated and meaningful interaction, so I like other people. But I'm fine being alone for a week or two, but after a while I get bored. I think most people have "dark" thoughts, it's just how you manage them. Admitting them to yourself is healthy, because otherwise it'll eat away at you. I don't think emotions are a detriment, but that the should be tempered with objectivity because that is also a way to further one understanding and to broaden one's perspective so it is not just based around a couple of people or your own experiences. I am not content with only knowing myself, but that's because nothing is simple and the world is interesting. I genuinely try to make the world better through my lifestyle (as much as I can afford) and through informing people of the motives of others, whether it be terrorism, mental health, sexism, or racial inequality. Because I firmly believe that to see one's own ills as a fault of an oppressed group is naive, and to be moved by the words of a single other person is a great disservice to one's self. Objectivity does not nesscerilly mean you see people as objects, in fact it is a basic function within all human's, it can just mean you are not as emotionally affected by certain things and therefore push past common morality. This can both be to hurt or to help, depending on your opinion of others and your own personal morality. So you could see people as toys I guess? But to be honest anyone who could be a "toy" would probably be pretty boring.
> I am a bit calculating, but I don't think it is unwise to consider your actions, also I am a woman so it really doesn't hurt. To do something with out knowing why or considering the consequences is stupid, I might put my neck out but only if it was for something I truly cared for.


Thank you for your reply. When I mentioned "toy" I realize it was maybe not the best way to phrase it. What I mean by objectifications is that other humans are like a dog, stereo, TV or car. It can be greatly appreciated, complex and enjoyable. But the relationship between the psychopath and other human is not fundamentally different from that of a psychopath and a car. Or do you relate to other humans "as humans"? Like equals where their life, experience and existance is almost as important as your own? I think in general psychopaths do not. And humans does not fill an "ego-filling purpose" like for a narcissist. Or they are not automatic enemies like for the sociopath. They are objects.

Obviously the most vicious serial killers tends to be psychopaths and they often collect trophies of their victims in an act of ultimate objectification. However these guys are outliers and I dont for a moment suggest that they are representative of the average psychopath. I mention this but I want to stay clear of the outlier analysis in this case. 

For a sociopath the view is that that every other human is an enemy or someone to be overtake/defeat/destroy. But they are fundamentally different to animals and objects. They are enemies to varied degrees.

A Narc would see humans as functions. In most cases as potential agents for self-gratification.

This is the basic premise I suggest. Then of course things like impulse control, purpose, personal drive etc will play a large roll in how that person shows up the world. Helpful or harmful. Kind or cruel. Your post focuses most on this part. Also on the fact that boring toys have little value. But that line of reasoning strengthens my point about objectification..


----------



## To Kill for Sport

Razorsharp said:


> Thank you for your reply. When I mentioned "toy" I realize it was maybe not the best way to phrase it. What I mean by objectifications is that other humans are like a dog, stereo, TV or car. It can be greatly appreciated, complex and enjoyable. But the relationship between the psychopath and other human is not fundamentally different from that of a psychopath and a car. Or do you relate to other humans "as humans"? Like equals where their life, experience and existance is almost as important as your own? I think in general psychopaths do not. And humans does not fill an "ego-filling purpose" like for a narcissist. Or they are not automatic enemies like for the sociopath. They are objects.


I understand a bit more what you mean about how people are viewed. And I'd say that's fairly true of how I see others, but TBH humans are animals and I think the changes in our style of interaction (so say chats like this) can change a complex device into a more potentially emotionless substitute for another human and therefor a channel for emotion. But I'm pretty excited about sentient AI's, even if they do kill us all.

I think you should also bear in mind objectivity can also be how you see yourself. I've injured and cut myself experimentally, had various eating disorders, seriously thought about killing myself so I wouldn't have to think anymore...I take pretty bad care of myself. I don't see myself as superior to others. I'm more driven than most, but that's because I need a sense of purpose and I don't get that from relationships although I do enjoy them.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

drmiller100 said:


> LOL The age of consent is 18 here in the states. You probably can't legally date anyone much younger than you!


Who says I'm not underage and just lied to be able to use the forums. Maybe I'm a twelve year old girl and you've all corrupted me terribly.


----------



## drmiller100

To Kill for Sport said:


> Who says I'm not underage and just lied to be able to use the forums. Maybe I'm a twelve year old girl and you've all corrupted me terribly.


shouldn't you be in school? 
Maybe you could talk to your school counselor and she can fix you.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

drmiller100 said:


> shouldn't you be in school?
> Maybe you could talk to your school counselor and she can fix you.


School can suck my **** and so can your mum.

I am actually a 10 year old boi, can't believe you were hitting on me...gross! You better be rich otherwise I'm gonna sue

TBH Wot is my profile picture...f**king disney


----------



## drmiller100

To Kill for Sport said:


> ! You better be rich otherwise I'm gonna sue
> 
> y


you have that backwards. sue the rich bastards. 

the poor ones have not money. 

I'm a poor one.

Alas.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

drmiller100 said:


> you have that backwards. sue the rich bastards.
> 
> the poor ones have not money.
> 
> I'm a poor one.
> 
> Alas.


That's a shame I was looking for a new sugar daddy. Dr I guess your just not my fix...I'll take your money and go to China where an older man can appreciate my milky white thighs and I can be his little princess.


----------



## Parrot

To Kill for Sport said:


> That's a shame I was looking for a new sugar daddy. Dr I guess your just not my fix...I'll take your money and go to China where an older man can appreciate my milky white thighs and I can be his little princess.


Haha your new signature. Like, Daddy issues :wink:

Love it, keep up the good work.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

Drunk Parrot said:


> Haha your new signature. Like, Daddy issues :wink:
> 
> Love it, keep up the good work.


My new avatar is Shinji from Evangelion...so yes...please validate me...daddy :blushed:

My work computer isn't working...oh windows 10

I feel weirdly committed to this now, I was gonna change my username...but I love my username.


----------



## Parrot

To Kill for Sport said:


> My new avatar is Shinji from Evangelion...so yes...please validate me...daddy :blushed:
> 
> My work computer isn't working...oh windows 10
> 
> I feel weirdly committed to this now, I was gonna change my username...but I love my username.


Yeah don't do it. You look like someone who is going to troll and get banned, despite never earning an infraction (I don't think, at least)


----------



## To Kill for Sport

Drunk Parrot said:


> Yeah don't do it. You look like someone who is going to troll and get banned, despite never earning an infraction (I don't think, at least)


Yeah TBH I'm bored now. I like to think I'm classier than this. Still got some patches to put on so I'm gonna transform back into a grown up.

Going undercover as a man for a bit though, could be fun :wink: keep it on the down low parrot, since this page'll be finished soon. Wow I come across as a really angry white man...eeee reminds me of a super right wing housemate I used to have.


----------



## Clayfighter

Razorsharp said:


> My own experience of narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths are that they have fundamentally different views on what other people are. Somewhat simplified:
> Narcissists view people as functions. Extensions of themselves with the purpose of aiding them. A function is used but not thanked. A function is expected to work without questioning. A function should be explioted for personal gain.
> Sociopaths view people as enemies. They are to be dominated sexually, financially or by means of outsmarting or outmanipulating them.
> Psychopaths consider people to be objects. Treated like objects and used like objects for the pleasure of the psychopath.
> 
> Narcissists and Sociopaths must be in contact with other people because they need functions/enemies to drive them forward. A psychopath is perfectly happy alone. Lack of people is a lost and missed toy, but in principle they can find other "toys".
> 
> Does this resonate with you guys here in this thread? Is this also your experience or are your view different?


I agree with what you said about sociopaths. I knew a sociopath, they have trust issues and strike first and ask questions later. Some sociopaths warm up to you if you get past the initial attack, make them believe you're a friend, and then refuse to fall for anymore of their BS. A sociopath might consider you a potential friend, but sometimes their ego gets in the way, and they have to see if they can take advantage of you. Sometimes it's not about gaining anything other than respect. Some people don't want to associate themselves with you if you're weak.

Psychopaths do not technically consider people to be objects. I have probably said similar things before, but its really just a metaphor. A psychopath will not get upset about losing a person in their life anymore than they will get upset about losing a prized possession, but they never consider or perceive the person to be a thing. Sometimes they will view certain types of people as "lesser people" but those types of people are viewed more like an insect or bug. They have no problem milking a bee for its honey, because its just a bee. They don't care about the bees feelings.

Psychopaths don't use people for self-gratification. Actually narcissists mostly do. A narcissist uses other people for his own emotional health. It's a way of getting supply. Supply is all about self-gratification at someone else's expense and a malignant narcissist will take it a step further and treat someone like a "toy" as you said. They toy with people to feel in control and the feeling of power they get from someone can be supply.

It's a bit difficult to be a malignant narcissist without being psychopathic, so people tend to view malignant narcissists as psychopaths, but psychopathy has nothing to do with the behavior a malignant narcissist displays. The level of psychopathy only allows the malignant narc to behave impulsively, unrestrained, and without remorse.

Psychopaths use people for their own purposes. The purpose depends on the psychopath. Every human has a multi-faceted personality, and psychopathy is just an added bonus. They are all individuals with different goals, interests, wants, and pursuits. Lacking empathy and a conscience isn't what determines behavior, other traits do.


----------



## Doll

To Kill for Sport said:


> Doll came to stigmatize people who cared, and asked for an opinion. This is was not a spontaneous comment.


Nah. I don't really care enough to stigmatize anything or anyone. To each their own.

I don't remember asking for your opinion. Did you have an imaginary conversation or just make assumptions on my intentions and tone? Because lol.


----------



## Parrot

drmiller100 said:


> OKCupid is the best of the dating sites. answer 200 questions. spend a bitof time on profile.
> 
> look for 85 percent matches who have been online in the past 7 days within xx miles.


And they're all ugly :frustrating:


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Doll said:


> I wouldn't consider myself a psychopath or a sociopath.
> 
> I just eyeroll when when people talk about how messed up they feel because of events that don't directly affect them, as you said. I don't get that.


Why do you eyeroll? Is it because of a lack of capacity to imagine what that is like? Is it a moral position that one should only be affected that which is directly their business? In either or neither case, could you extrapolate?


----------



## Kaboomz

Choking Hazard said:


> Why do you eyeroll? Is it because of a lack of capacity to imagine what that is like? Is it a moral position that one should only be affected that which is directly their business? In either or neither case, could you extrapolate?


it seems immoral to express outrage about something and do nothing to change it; yet such behavior is considered normal, acceptable and healthy. sometimes i'm not sure if i'm amoral or just apathetic. in the end it amounts to the same thing. i nod and agree because i'm perfectly content being a hypocrite, but i don't instigate or express opinion on ethical issues because i feel a little sick listening to people do the same thing while wondering if they realize they're hypocrites or actually consider themselves decent people. 

there's an old adage that everyone considers themselves a good person, but i've never understood it. it requires contrast to those around you, and at some point a moral judgement in which you deem yourself worthy by some arbitrary standard. both pre-requisites are absurd and futile unless you benefit from delusions of social validation, which many do

the few who don't tend to transcend popular morality and actually affect the world in a meaningful way...but on the other hand, we tend to kill those people in the name of whatever, because it must be unpleasant being exposed as a hypocrite by someone who is by your own standard, better than you. gandhi, jesus, malcolm x etc.


----------



## drmiller100

Kaboomz said:


> i
> 
> there's an old adage that everyone considers themselves a good person, b.



Ummm.....I'm an asshole. 

I've got references. I'd name them, but, well, you know.......


----------



## Doll

Choking Hazard said:


> Why do you eyeroll? Is it because of a lack of capacity to imagine what that is like? Is it a moral position that one should only be affected that which is directly their business? In either or neither case, could you extrapolate?


Because I don't understand it, probably. I don't really judge them for it. I imagine they are sincere, or might be, but my empathy is lacking.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

@Clayfighter Sorry I didn't mean to bite your head off there, but I do think a vital part of living in a privileged society is to be aware and claim some responsibility in making it a better and more sustainable place, taking action if necessary. But these are my personal views so I know they are insular to me

For social context, I'm not from the USA nor have ever visited (so it basically looks like a massive mess right now/all the time) and have done work in documentary and for charities on a variety of stuff. I understand I'm a privileged position so I would like to give back. But I get this is my choice, and people are free to do as they want. 
@Doll Mate I shouldn't have gotten as wound up, but simultaneously when you posted I thought you had asked for an opinion since this is mainly how this thread works. And although you are in no way obligated to follow feedback, to me it seemed you completely disregarded it when I had tried to answer you sincerely and thoughtfully. There for wasting my time.

But this should probably end this segment, since its meandering in neither a scintillating nor an amusing way.


----------



## Parrot

@To Kill for Sport yeah you got riled up for nothing. Good job.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

Drunk Parrot said:


> @To Kill for Sport yeah you got riled up for nothing. Good job.


Don't poke the tiger


----------



## Doll

@*To Kill for Sport* - I enjoy reading others' opinions. I post on threads and read threads in order to take in a variety of views. I may or may not adopt those point of views, but they are never disregarded. I was just being honest about my "do nothing" stance since I'm lazy af. I don't engage with people because I already know that, at the heart of it, they just care more than I do and it's senseless to argue about feelings.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

Doll said:


> @*To Kill for Sport* - I enjoy reading others' opinions. I post on threads and read threads in order to take in a variety of point of views and to better understand. I may or may not adopt those point of views, but they are never disregarded. I was just being honest about my "do nothing" stance since I'm lazy af. I don't engage with people because I already know that, at the heart of it, they just care more than I do and it's senseless to argue about feelings.


Fair enough its good to fish for opinions :chat02:


----------



## Doll

To Kill for Sport said:


> Don't poke the tiger


----------



## Parrot

I only hate it when someone comes in this thread and either starts judging people or making shit up. Those people are gross.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

Doll said:


>


WHAT EVER IT TAKES

<3 thats why I smoke


----------



## To Kill for Sport

Drunk Parrot said:


> I only hate it when someone comes in this thread and either starts judging people or making shit up. Those people are gross.


I'm sorry about saying I was a ten year old boy who was looking for a sugar daddy, I know I let a lot of people down...in different ways.


----------



## Parrot

To Kill for Sport said:


> I'm sorry about saying I was a ten year old boy who was looking for a sugar daddy, I know I let a lot of people down...in different ways.
> 
> Truce


When the.. FUCK... were _we_ ever fighting? Get back to your job!

Damn underage boys


----------



## To Kill for Sport

Drunk Parrot said:


> When the.. FUCK... were _we_ ever fighting? Get back to your job!
> 
> Damn underage boys


I'm always fighting...for our love XD

You play hard to get Parrot, you're such a tease I love it! 

Also I was rendering...it takes ages...........


----------



## Clayfighter

Drunk Parrot said:


> I only hate it when someone comes in this thread and either starts judging people or making shit up. Those people are gross.


Why hate? That's pretty normal human behavior. When someone acts as such they are giving up power by making an investment in the situation. If you hate them back, then that's just making the playing field even.

It's fairly easy to steer the situation as you please when it happens. They're the ones making themselves vulnerable by putting themselves out there. 

Its a source of amusement and nothing more. I have no interest in changing the opinion of others, so it's more or less a non-issue for me.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

Out of interest were any of you sexually assaulted when you were young, so age 14 and below I guess? If so how has it affected you?

I was groped up a couple of times between 8-12, I completely forgot about it until the other day. I don't have any feelings about it, but I'd be annoyed if it had contributed to who I am in any way. It was all gross old men and once a dwarf who was working at a funfair near my school bus stop. I started carrying a knife, but never used it, its a stupid thing to do since I got into trouble for having it in school.

I definitely become colder with each year though, and I don't really enjoy gentle touching. I hope it's not because of that...and a bit more general mental issues. I don't really even think of myself as a person, just a collection of functions. I would rather be valued for what I can do than what I am. 

Everyone I've ever had any feelings for has been unattainable or just a really bad idea, so I never have any meaningful relationships which aren't platonic...I'm so numb, since otherwise I just feel sadness twisting.

When you read twisted erotica...and you realise you're literally the really messed up person it.


----------



## drmiller100

To Kill for Sport said:


> Out of interest were any of you sexually assaulted when you were young, so age 14 and below I guess? If so how has it affected you?
> 
> I was groped up a couple of times between 8-12, I completely forgot about it until the other day. I don't have any feelings about it, but I'd be annoyed if it had contributed to who I am in any way. It was all gross old men and once a dwarf who was working at a funfair near my school bus stop. I started carrying a knife, but never used it, its a stupid thing to do since I got into trouble for having it in school.
> 
> I definitely become colder with each year though, and I don't really enjoy gentle touching. I hope it's not because of that...and a bit more general mental issues. I don't really even think of myself as a person, just a collection of functions. I would rather be valued for what I can do than what I am.
> 
> Everyone I've ever had any feelings for has been unattainable or just a really bad idea, so I never have any meaningful relationships which aren't platonic...I'm so numb, since otherwise I just feel sadness twisting.
> 
> When you read twisted erotica...and you realise you're literally the really messed up person it.


i have never been assaulted sexually. I love gentle touching ,I love holding a lady when she wiggles and squirms. I hold her close, and hear her FEEL. 

I've been a Dom. there is intensity and feeling in that.


----------



## Parrot

drmiller100 said:


> i have never been assaulted sexually. I love gentle touching ,*I love holding a lady when she wiggles and squirms. I hold her close, and hear her FEEL.*
> 
> I've been a Dom. there is intensity and feeling in that.


That's _sooo_ creepy haha.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

drmiller100 said:


> i have never been assaulted sexually. I love gentle touching ,I love holding a lady when she wiggles and squirms. I hold her close, and hear her FEEL.
> 
> I've been a Dom. there is intensity and feeling in that.


HHMMMM...oh doctor please thoroughly inspect me every inch...orally...as in my dick 

I don't mind doing it to other people, it can be pretty cute, like butter melting. But TBH I like being mean sometimes, you know compromise. Luckily people don't bother me as much now I'm not a sexy tween (I wasn't I actually don't understand...like my school uniform wasn't even sexy, massive fleeces), but also because I'm a vampire and will live for ever to exact revenge.

It didn't really occur to me that most of the regulars here are male so its less common (unless your catholic).


----------



## shazam

I once killed a guy... with this thumb.


----------



## To Kill for Sport

shane2 said:


> I once killed a guy... with this thumb.


I once found a rat in my toilet, hired two hookers. Mutilated them with acid, then put a clear section of plastic pipping into one of them, put the rat in. She got eaten out from the inside.

Oh mate 100th post!


----------



## shazam

To Kill for Sport said:


> I once found a rat in my toilet, hired two hookers. Mutilated them with acid, then put a clear section of plastic pipping into one of them, put the rat in. She got eaten out from the inside.
> 
> Oh mate 100th post!


...


----------



## To Kill for Sport

shane2 said:


> ...


It's from american psycho (the book)

Although I think the guy in that's schizophrenic or maybe just done too much cocaine


----------



## To Kill for Sport

shane2 said:


> ...


It's from american psycho (the book)

Although I think the guy in that's schizophrenic or maybe just done too much cocaine

I HATE MY INTERNET, argh double posting


----------



## shazam

To Kill for Sport said:


> It's from american psycho (the book)
> 
> Although I think the guy in that's schizophrenic or maybe just done too much cocaine


Ah.


----------



## shazam

To Kill for Sport said:


> It's from american psycho (the book)
> 
> Although I think the guy in that's schizophrenic or maybe just done too much cocaine
> 
> I HATE MY INTERNET, argh double posting


Mines from Ratatouille :laughing:


----------



## drmiller100

To Kill for Sport said:


> HHMMMM...oh doctor please thoroughly inspect me every inch...orally...as in my dick
> 
> I don't mind doing it to other people, it can be pretty cute, like butter melting. But TBH I like being mean sometimes, you know compromise. Luckily people don't bother me as much now I'm not a sexy tween (I wasn't I actually don't understand...like my school uniform wasn't even sexy, massive fleeces), but also because I'm a vampire and will live for ever to exact revenge.
> 
> It didn't really occur to me that most of the regulars here are male so its less common (unless your catholic).




hmmmm...I'm not sure I understand your post, but I was not making fun of you. 

I was trying to say I like to hold a lady close, in a gentle way. It wasn't directed at you, but rather to say waht I like in general.


----------



## Eren Jaegerbomb

To Kill for Sport said:


> @Razorsharp I'm I guess a bit Psychopathic (but it's a sliding scale TBH), but lets not box stuff up to make it manageable. Because most psychopaths make themselves a strict set of rules out of fear (of being imprisoned or ostracized) that allows them to function socially. I do think about killing, including myself, but I won't do it and I've got a good grip on my anger so it wouldn't be an in the moment thing either. If I find someone boring I just won't socialise with them, some people are genuinely interesting I will respect that and enjoy their company (this is pretty much exclusively NT's I guess but there's an F or two who I'm fond of, lol boxing). I've never seen anyone as a toy, probably because I've got better things to do and I'm a workaholic. Unless someone was terrible I would not mistreat them because that is a stupid thing to do, and I don't get off on petty cruelty. I like being validated and meaningful interaction, so I like other people. But I'm fine being alone for a week or two, but after a while I get bored. I think most people have "dark" thoughts, it's just how you manage them. Admitting them to yourself is healthy, because otherwise it'll eat away at you. I don't think emotions are a detriment, but that the should be tempered with objectivity because that is also a way to further one understanding and to broaden one's perspective so it is not just based around a couple of people or your own experiences. I am not content with only knowing myself, but that's because nothing is simple and the world is interesting. I genuinely try to make the world better through my lifestyle (as much as I can afford) and through informing people of the motives of others, whether it be terrorism, mental health, sexism, or racial inequality. Because I firmly believe that to see one's own ills as a fault of an oppressed group is naive, and to be moved by the words of a single other person is a great disservice to one's self. Objectivity does not nesscerilly mean you see people as objects, in fact it is a basic function within all human's, it can just mean you are not as emotionally affected by certain things and therefore push past common morality. This can both be to hurt or to help, depending on your opinion of others and your own personal morality. So you could see people as toys I guess? But to be honest anyone who could be a "toy" would probably be pretty boring.
> I am a bit calculating, but I don't think it is unwise to consider your actions, also I am a woman so it really doesn't hurt. To do something with out knowing why or considering the consequences is stupid, I might put my neck out but only if it was for something I truly cared for.


I have pretty violent, twisted and dark thoughts. Only reason why I haven't done them is because I don't want to be in jail or be in any one's bad books. And I'm just a 'normal' person with empathy, if you will.

I wonder if genetics has anything to do with it. My ancestors are mostly Scottish. Going way back, some were mercenaries and freedom fighters. Scots were a pretty violent people.

Maybe I'm getting violent mixed up with passion.

If I ever did a crime, it'd probably be one of passion...

Eh.

Actually, I watched this interesting news segment once. This prison guard, warden, or whatever you want to call him;.has been working in prisons for 30+ years. He said he's worked in some high security prisons too with all the really 'high risk' criminals. He said, about the rehabilitation programme, the only people that didn't want to try and 'get better', or 'better themselves' were pedophiles...

It seems like we have to watch out for the pedophiles more.

I don't believe all psychopaths are 'bad people'. As you and others are saying, some 'function' (for a lack of a better word) quite well.


----------



## Clayfighter

To Kill for Sport said:


> Out of interest were any of you sexually assaulted when you were young, so age 14 and below I guess? If so how has it affected you?


No, nothing happened to me. I was the problem for everyone else. I got girls in my neighborhood to take off their clothes in my room and I embarrassed other kids by making them go nude in front of each other. I would just say "take off your pants and show us what you got. Don't be the only one who's too afraid to do it, everyone's doing it." Then I would reassure them and tell them how what they did wasn't a big deal, just to make them do it again some other day.

It's kind of amazing how easily people will comply if they think they are behaving outside social norms or group behavior. That was just growing up stuff though. I didn't know what I was doing was considered a violation of rights or anything. 

I didn't sexually assault anyone though, and I never was sexually assaulted. No physical contact to my memory.


----------



## Clayfighter

ArminMuffinArlert said:


> I have pretty violent, twisted and dark thoughts. Only reason why I haven't done them is because I don't want to be in jail or be in any one's bad books. And I'm just a 'normal' person with empathy, if you will.
> 
> I wonder if genetics has anything to do with it. My ancestors are mostly Scottish. Going way back, some were mercenaries and freedom fighters. Scots were a pretty violent people.


The genetics to my mother's side is filled with a bunch of violent Scottish folk, and I had a lot of violent thoughts growing up. It was more curiosity than anger or aggression. I wanted to know what it would be like and I was curious. I would plan out all of my impulses in great length to the point of losing any interest I had in it. I became bored before I carried any of it out. Now I don't have the thoughts. Seemed to take care of it, and it was healthy for me. 

What wasnt healthy was when my parents found all the evidence to my planning and freaked the fuck out. Had a relatively short talk about it. I dont know if I quickly diffused their concerns, or they just HAD to believe that everything was okay.


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

I was PMed about a post I'd made recently and it got me thinking about if there is a code of conduct that I maybe adhere to. My first instinct was that it relates to honour but that's not it. 



Choking Hazard said:


> Precisely. There's nothing worse than a rude person who understands the rules of etiquette, courtesy and manners yet does not possess the grace to act by them. There is a way to be antisocial and a way to circumvent them cleverly. There is also the ignorance and bastardisation of the rules which is disgusting and classless. There is a function of civility, even if only in veneer, that I find important. I don't care what you do so long as it is done with appreciation of the codes that make it civilised. We are not apes and we are not barbarians. Don't act like it, else be treated with disdain.


There is set of rules I set loosely in place for myself and others in certain fields. To not play by those rules seems against the spirit of the game, I suppose. It appeals to what I value and in that sense there is a kind of valuing of behaviour that is not necessarily unscrupulous.


----------



## Kaboomz

Choking Hazard said:


> There is set of rules I set loosely in place for myself and others in certain fields. To not play by those rules seems against the spirit of the game, I suppose. It appeals to what I value and in that sense there is a kind of valuing of behaviour that is not necessarily unscrupulous.


sounds like basic human behavior. instead of taking what you want when you want, you process it through your social programming like every other prosocial creature


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Kaboomz said:


> sounds like basic human behavior. instead of taking what you want when you want, you process it through your social programming like every other prosocial creature


You see, that's not it! It's actually what they commented on in the PM: They said I create this abstraction and 'playground' set of rules, where I want to find beauty in the mechanics of it and have a structure to the game. Outside of that mode of thought, this kind of elitism doesn't even get a thought in for me.

I can turn this off in an instance but the point is there is a valuing codes of conduct in a symbolic sense even if not in a moral one. The feelings of disgust are not ones at them having no morality. That's not my issue.

What I _want_ is to play


----------



## Kaboomz

Choking Hazard said:


> You see, that's not it! It's actually what they commented on quite insightfully in the PM. I create this abstraction and 'playground' set of rules, where I want to find beauty in the mechanics of it. Outside of that mode of thought, this kind of elitism doesn't even get a thought in for me.
> 
> I can turn this off in an instance, but I wouldn't inside the game because it defeats the point of it.


what's the point of it? adding layers of abstraction onto basic instinct? if you want sex, fuck someone. why abstract? why stop and consider the other side? what possible use are they beside gratification? if you need to pretend for their sake to avoid rape, that just demonstrates intelligence. if you need to pretend for your own, that demonstrates delusion


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Kaboomz said:


> what's the point of it? adding layers of abstraction onto basic instinct? if you want sex, fuck someone. why abstract? why stop and consider the other side? what possible use are they beside gratification? if you need to pretend for their sake to avoid rape, that just demonstrates intelligence. if you need to pretend for your own, that demonstrates delusion


I like abstraction and I like sophistication of basic desires. It's pretty. We get to turn then into ideal forms. Was talking somebody about BDSM recently and said that this is the draw to it, in elaborate, grandiose gestures of the same impulses and desires, brought to fruition intensely through formalisation of it. Codifying the power dynamics allows you to experience them more significantly. There _is_ something to be said for stripping down layers of abstraction and getting 'to the core', as it is, but that's another conversation.

Fucking somebody isn't often the goal by itself. The want is to engage in some kind of power play and the abstraction allows us to do that more meaningfully. Often my gratification is psychological or cerebral in nature so I think the idea of people being clever and sophisticated is an important aspect of that.


----------



## Kaboomz

Choking Hazard said:


> There _is_ something to be said for stripping down layers of abstraction and getting 'to the core', as it is


yes, it's called psychotherapy. very useful for people suffering from psychological disorders



> Fucking somebody isn't often the goal by itself. The want is to engage in some kind of power play and the abstraction allows us to do that more meaningfully. Often my gratification is psychological or cerebral in nature so I think the idea of people being clever and sophisticated is an important aspect of that.


power play implies ego, finding fulfillment in another through contrast. i don't understand this at all. power is a relative term that allows people to feel strong or weak via hierarchy. your bdsm for example. a masochist is beaten, humiliated and egotistically violated by a sadist, but the sadist needs the masochist and the masochist allows the sadist to indulge forwhatever reason. it is delusional behavior. do you imagine creatures in the wild engage in sex in order to feel powerful, or because they are horny and found something too weak to stop them indulging?

if you constantly play power games, it's because you require the cooperation of others. like i said, instead of taking what you want, you process it through your programming/social conscience


----------



## Occams Chainsaw

Kaboomz said:


> power is a relative term that allows people to feel strong or weak via hierarchy. your bdsm for example. a masochist is beaten, humiliated and egotistically violated by a sadist, but the sadist needs the masochist and the masochist allows the sadist to indulge forwhatever reason. it is delusional behavior.


I'm not convinced that this is correct. You're right when saying when one is playing a role for a scene that there is a 'delusional' quality -- Probably calling is pretend is more accurate here but we'll go with delusion -- in that it's contained to this bubble, this drama and act. I mean, the word _scene_ depicts this well. After the play, control is returned. There is nothing really real about it in itself. The aspect of the culture that appeals to me in act isn't where people 'play' their roles but essentially find them. You feel out the partner, fight for the control, and try to get the other to fall first. It's fun. There is an _actual_ power exchange going on here. The acting of it through scenes then is just, like I say, formalising it. Why I like it may indeed be a function of ego. Probably also of searching for intimacy and finding only a perverse way to explore it.



> do you imagine creatures in the wild engage in sex in order to feel powerful, or because they are horny and found something too weak to stop them indulging?if you constantly play power games, it's because you require the cooperation of others. like i said, instead of taking what you want, you process it through your programming/social conscience


We haven't decided on what I want. Is fucking your only motivation? What is your intention here today with me? I trust it's not hook up. Comparing our wants/desires to animals in the wild seems like a mistake and reducing us to reproduction is just lazy. Your self-image is tied in being primal or animalistic but it's clearly contrasted here by the debate.

I'm not sure why this is a function of social conscience. Would you explain it?


----------

