# "Creepy" guys



## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

VIIZZY said:


> When a guy comes across as desperate it can definitely be interpreted as creepy...
> 
> For instance your last post describing your state as 'hungry' to be touched (I'm not interpreting it as sexual) is a bit on the creepy side for me. If I were to interpret your use of touch to be mostly meant sexually the creepiness factor increases.


Yes, I was thinking the same. Of course, not everyone would agree. 

The "hungry" thing seems to be along the lines of what I was trying to explain when I said the person comes across like they want to keep you. It feels predatory.


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## VIIZZY (Mar 22, 2014)

Enfpleasantly said:


> Yes, I was thinking the same. Of course, not everyone would agree.
> 
> The "hungry" thing seems to be along the lines of what I was trying to explain when I said the person comes across like they want to keep you. It feels predatory.


Yep, unfortunately that's rather hard to explain as well...or when we do explain it our explanations get dismissed.


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

VIIZZY said:


> Yep, unfortunately that's rather hard to explain as well...or when we do explain it our explanations get dismissed.


It's hard to explain without people thinking it's a knock on shy or awkward guys...shy and awkward aren't the same thing as creepy. Shy and awkward could give you a feeling that the guy is cute in his approach. The creepy make you feel uneasy. It's not about being overly afraid. Some people give the feeling that it wouldn't be a very good idea to be alone with them. Shy and awkward doesn't give that impression, but creepy does. 

**Being alone with a shy or awkward guy=* Just more shy and awkward that might gradually go away as comfort sets in. 

**Being alone with a creepy guy= *Being aware of your exits and potential weapons to protect yourself. 

The problem is, those who come off as creepy, likely can't see that they do. 

This is directed at the people who think it's somehow wrong for a woman to judge a guy as creepy:

People aren't villains for reading others as a potential threat. Sadly, people, especially women, HAVE to do this. Women are usually not as physically strong as a man and therefore, she needs to be careful about who she allows herself to be alone with. This is different than being a snob who acts like everyone just wants to rape her. So ladies, there is no shame in being cautious. If some guy makes you feel uncomfortable, don't put his potentially hurt feelings (or ego) over your safety. 

And might as as well add that men should also be cautious.


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## VIIZZY (Mar 22, 2014)

Enfpleasantly said:


> It's hard to explain without people thinking it's a knock on shy or awkward guys...shy and awkward aren't the same thing as creepy. Shy and awkward could give you a feeling that the guy is cute in his approach. The creepy make you feel uneasy. It's not about being overly afraid. Some people give the feeling that it wouldn't be a very good idea to be alone with them. Shy and awkward doesn't give that impression, but creepy does.
> 
> **Being alone with a shy or awkward guy=* Just more shy and awkward that might gradually go away as comfort sets in.
> 
> ...


You're right; it's not meant to be prejudice towards shy/awkward guys but they can easily come across as creepy. 

A lot of women since their preadolescence to early teen years have had to deal with creepy men, catcalls, leers, inappropriate and invasive behaviors from others; even grown up men. My friend, smart as shit as she is, took some college courses at the community college at the age 14 and had many unwanted sexual advances from older male peers (20+). Unfortunately that's not rare. My point is that women have a lot of experience with creepy men and that when we try to explain what makes someone 'creepy' we're not just paranoid women.


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## Nordom (Oct 12, 2011)

-4 straight emails to someone without a response is creepy (ok 5)
-Sitting next to a stranger when there are plenty of open seats elsewhere is creepy
-Knowing what projects the Olsen Twins are working on is creepy
-Being the one guy whose expression doesn't change when a large balloon pops right next to him is creepy
-Talking to yourself in line at the grocery store about what type of bagels they're out of is creepy

Staring is sort of borderline. Staring and blushing when you're caught is fine. Unwanted flirting is borderline until you're told it isn't cool. I think this is maybe the one big thing there is a miscommunication on which @_VIIZZY_ already touched on though I think most people give you a fairly clean slate if you apologize. A lot of that depends on how mainstream or easily categorized someone looks. If you're a big athletic dude with a backwards hat and football jersey on and you approach a girl and hit on her pretty hard and she's not at all interested, you're going to get more of a break than a guy whose hair is unkempt and whose tooth decay is visible.


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## William I am (May 20, 2011)

VIIZZY said:


> When a guy comes across as desperate it can definitely be interpreted as creepy...
> 
> For instance your last post describing your state as 'hungry' to be touched (I'm not interpreting it as sexual) is a bit on the creepy side for me. If I were to interpret your use of touch to be mostly meant sexually the creepiness factor increases.


Why? People hunger for food, sleep, sex, intimacy, social acceptance.

What is creepy about wanting something you don't have? 

There is a famous (or at least I've come across it a few times) quote: "...a hungry man thinks only of bread."

Doesn't everybody feel this?

PS: The illustrated gif in your signature is beautiful. Do you know what the equations are behind it?


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## eydimork (Mar 19, 2014)

Iamtp said:


> -Sitting next to a stranger when there are plenty of open seats elsewhere is creepy
> -Being the one guy whose expression doesn't change when a large balloon pops right next to him is creepy
> -Talking to yourself in line at the grocery store about what type of bagels they're out of is creepy


Fuck. I thought I was home free. But there you are, reeling me back in.


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

Creepy is simply inappropriate.

Some things are borderline creepy, others full blown, others not at all.

walking up and grabbing a girls butt you dont know is creepy, but with a girlfriend that likes it, romantic.

Saying hey baby to a stranger might or might not be creepy depending on the girl and setting

etc..


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## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

William I am said:


> I tried doing that for a year. Didn't work. I think "you'll never find it if you're looking for it" is bollocks. More like "you'll never find it if you're not looking for it."
> 
> Shoot, the main thing I want out of sex is intimacy. I go a month or more without either and I start to get hungry just to be touched.


you can have intimacy outside of sex. and if "it's not working"... what is it supposed to do? get you laid? (no disrespect, it's just that if your mindset to "not thinking about sex" is to be disappointed when you don't get it, you were never really doing it to begin with, and can't say if it works or not). 

in most cases, i think it's actually going to be counterproductive to just look for sex (really hard to find what you're actually looking for that way, which again, from your own post is: intimacy). 


why not just go out with the intention of making friends, and nothing else (if something controls you, it doesn't really work towards your advantage)--with the mindset of "i'm just not going to have sex no matter what"--that way all of your reactions are genuine, unfiltered, and uninhibited within the context, allowing an actual connection to take place... which for me (and it is different for different people) is where sex actually begins.


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## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

Enfpleasantly said:


> It's hard to explain without people thinking it's a knock on shy or awkward guys...shy and awkward aren't the same thing as creepy. Shy and awkward could give you a feeling that the guy is cute in his approach. The creepy make you feel uneasy. It's not about being overly afraid. Some people give the feeling that it wouldn't be a very good idea to be alone with them. Shy and awkward doesn't give that impression, but creepy does.


i completely agree with this (and the notion that listening to one's warning signs is completely legitimate and well within their right to do so). 

but just to bring up the other side of the issue (which was part of my initial post) is that it can also be the female equivalent of when a guy puts down a girl for... the very same reasons as that of women: one's "social grace" vs the lack of in others= self-validation (in some warped, backwards way... also known as projection, as it--the word "creepy" and any other disparaging term--usually has some subjective meaning and intent outside of how it is normally used). 

my study group is mostly girls/women, and i see this pretty frequently (not that this one, segregated group accounts for all of humanity, but i mean c'mon, i can't be the only one noticing this). most of the people they talk about (the few who do this) are people who are just paralyzed in social situations and so ignore everyone around them... i can see how someone else's nervousness can unnerve another, but the instances i'm referring to--the person's harmless--and this same judgement can be seen in the way these select few speak about the individual: it's with spite, distaste, and complete and utter bitchiness (and their remarks, just like the remarks of others made in the very same vein, aren't restricted to just men or boys, but are aimed at anyone who doesn't fit for whatever reason, and given a convenient label that vaguely correlates to said insult--as well as to a variety of other opposing adjectives--in order to justify whatever their current issue is). 

just the other side of the coin, to fill out an answer to William's question. 

(and p.s. @William I am,

i don't think it's creepy to anonymously admit whatever it is that you feel on an internet subforum. i mean, if you can't do it here, where can you? if that's how you feel, it's how you feel, and what others attribute to it, is what others _are attributing to it_).


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Donovan said:


> i can see how someone else's nervousness can unnerve another, but the instances i'm referring to--the person's harmless--and this same judgement can be seen in the way these select few speak about the individual: it's with spite, distaste, and complete and utter bitchiness (and their remarks, just like the remarks of others made in the very same vein, aren't restricted to just men or boys, but are aimed at anyone who doesn't fit for whatever reason, and given a convenient label that vaguely correlates to said insult--as well as to a variety of other opposing adjectives--in order to justify whatever their current issue is).


Yaaahhh. These are the non-prudish self-respecting lady feminists within society though dontcha know  

Obviously some women just get creeped out, fair enough, but the above does happen to an extent, and it's annoying as fuck. ("That guy was such a creep!" "I thought he was funny!" "You can't sit with us!" "Mean girls!" "No way!" "Dude...where is Janis Ian to set this whole fucking charade straight?")

I get creeped out by the Billy Bobs. The guys who will act all women's rights but dump Angelina Jolie for being too intimidating. So many dudes like this too.


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## VIIZZY (Mar 22, 2014)

William I am said:


> Why? People hunger for food, sleep, sex, intimacy, social acceptance.
> 
> What is creepy about wanting something you don't have?
> 
> ...


Don't presume to know what others hunger for. 

Hunger implies a need for something, a hungry man thinks of bread because it's filling and the body needs subsistence to function; you won't die without sex. You _crave_ sex but don't need it; and if your main goal when approaching women is to 'sate' yourself it's very likely you're going to come across poorly/too strongly. Really the creepiest guys are the ones who come across as types with just sex on their minds; they make women feel like they're being objectified. 

I don't know the precise equation for it (if it has one) another user suggested it's a mirrored limacon pascal.


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## VIIZZY (Mar 22, 2014)

Iamtp said:


> -4 straight emails to someone without a response is creepy (ok 5)
> -Sitting next to a stranger when there are plenty of open seats elsewhere is creepy
> -Knowing what projects the Olsen Twins are working on is creepy
> -Being the one guy whose expression doesn't change when a large balloon pops right next to him is creepy
> ...


The guy you describe, muscular one, would still come across as creepy if he came on too strong; muscular men who are too forward fall into the 'sleazy' creep category. A man with unkempt hair and visible tooth decay falls into the unhinged/detached from reality creepy category.

Edit: Yeah apologizing can work especially for minor social norms being broken.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

VIIZZY said:


> The guy you describe, muscular one, would still come across as creepy if he came on too strong; muscular men who are too forward fall into the 'sleazy' creep category


Or the totally hot one. Depending on who you talk to...


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## VIIZZY (Mar 22, 2014)

Veggie said:


> Or the totally hot one. Depending on who you talk to...


Sure that's possible; unlikely but possible. 

But I must ask how many women do you actually know who go "I totally want to be in a committed relationship with that mountain of muscles who just snuck up behind me to slap my ass and comment on the roundness of it? Definitely marriage material!" 'cause I must say I'm sick of this cliche; the only physical characteristic that seems to be important to heterosexual women when it comes to men is _height which is rather weird but oh well. A man like that at best would be a one night stand or fling. If you do know a woman who totally goes for over the top approaches from muscular guys please give me her phone number so I can confirm she actually exists._


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

VIIZZY said:


> Sure that's possible; unlikely but possible.
> 
> But I must ask how many women do you actually know who go "I totally want to be in a committed relationship with that mountain of muscles who just snuck up behind me to slap my ass and comment on the roundness of it? Definitely marriage material!" 'cause I must say I'm sick of this cliche; the only physical characteristic that seems to be important to heterosexual women when it comes to men is _height which is rather weird but oh well. A man like that at best would be a one night stand or fling. If you do know a woman who totally goes for over the top approaches from muscular guys please give me her phone number so I can confirm she actually exists._


_

*Hands up*

We exist 

A lot of girls have defense mechanisms around these guys (I am powerful and I shall reject first!)...not all, but it happens (gawd, do I have some irl proof of girls who were total "anti-douchebag!" proponents...but then would fall over them more than I would (me - "girl, they're just dudes who poop and stuff, step off your platform")...). 

All of my committed relationships have been with the muscly men. I've tried giving the other guys a chance and they usually just puss out._


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## VIIZZY (Mar 22, 2014)

Veggie said:


> *Hands up*
> 
> We exist
> 
> ...


Interesting; so you go into the relationships purely for their physical appearance?


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

Typically: 
If a guy is attractive to an object of interest, his romantic forwardness is considered "_cute_"

If a guy is not considered attractive to an object of interest, his romantic forwardness is considered "_creepy_"


It's very unfair.


In terms of what I deem _creepy_? Attention that is inappropriate and causes me to feel endangered or excessively lusted over by a potentially mentally unstable human being.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

VIIZZY said:


> Interesting; so you go into the relationships purely for their physical appearance?


Not at all. It's important to me, yes, I couldn't be with somebody who I didn't find *somewhat* physically attractive...but no. 

It's a confidence thing.


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## Nordom (Oct 12, 2011)

VIIZZY said:


> The guy you describe, muscular one, would still come across as creepy if he came on too strong; muscular men who are too forward fall into the 'sleazy' creep category. A man with unkempt hair and visible tooth decay falls into the unhinged/detached from reality creepy category.
> 
> Edit: Yeah apologizing can work especially for minor social norms being broken.


I'm more referring to the tolerance level I've noticed women having with jock-type vs freakish guy. Jock-type you almost know you're going to get hit on by, and aren't really shocked when it happens. He's the guy you want to have a conversation about with your friends because you're still somewhat amused but slightly disgusted. 

Freakish guy, you avoid all eye contact with and hope to God he doesn't notice you. You avoid the establishment you're at in the future if he creeps you out enough.

I'm the same way. The cray-cray divorcee who is in work-out fiend post child mode but makes waaaay too much eye contact is going to get more leeway than 6 inch thick eyeglasses girl (I made this category up but she lives in my building).


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

Veggie said:


> I've come right out and said this...but it would depend on the guy and the situation. Obviously this is an extreme version of someone being touchy and in my space, but not one I'd immediately write off as creepy. Does he run off sticking his tongue out and winking in an oddly charming way afterwards? Is it done so ridiculously that it's almost playful?
> 
> It's not a dumb way to make the point. It's a fantastic way to make the point, because that's really how okay I am with touching and what would be deemed predatory or "creepy" by many women. If we're going to throw around the word "dumb" and talk about how we really feel, I'll add that I find *some* women who are strongly opposed to touching amongst strangers (and not women on this forum as I don't personally know them) uptight, pretentious, patronizing, hypocritical bitches (actually, not totally stating how I really feel, as I decided to edit my original word choice there) with the critical thinking capacity of eight year old children (did I go too far? Let's pretend that I'm describing a "douchebag" or an MRA though. Then I'd be allowed to say whatever I want, right?) Predator-prey is the lot that we've been handed as humans. Many will fight against this but then go have a steak. We don't *have* to love or trust each other. It gets polarizing, and these guys only become more attractive.
> 
> To me creepy = untrustworthy. I don't trust people who think that their bubbles are God given rights. I trust the people who I think would have my back if something went down or got violent, people who are more salt of the earth and laid back...but connected to the gritty aspects of life and reality at the same time. As of now I guess I've equated that with somewhat inappropriate. That's my choice and I have my reasons.


It's not about the guy being creepy, it's about him being disrespectful and violating your boundaries. I still fail to see how it depending on the guy and the situation changes that. No matter what, a fucking random stranger coming up to you and grabbing/smacking your ass is not ok. Again, ok, sure, that's really how ok you are with touching. But that's going far beyond touching. Using such an extreme example (which you've noted it is) is a poor way to prove how comfortable you are with touching and to say that some women who are strongly opposed to touching amongst strangers are uptight, pretentious, patronizing, and hypocritical bitches. 

But anyways, we seem to be missing each other's points. Is a random stranger coming up to a woman and grabbing/smacking her ass not disrespectful and a violations of their boundaries? That's all I'm saying. It being creepy is besides the point I'm making.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Gentleman Bastard said:


> It's not about the guy being creepy, it's about him being disrespectful and violating your boundaries. I still fail to see how it depending on the guy and the situation changes that. *No matter what, a fucking random stranger coming up to you and grabbing/smacking your ass is not ok.* Again, ok, sure, that's really how ok you are with touching. But that's going far beyond touching. Using such an extreme example (which you've noted it is) is a poor way to prove how comfortable you are with touching and to say that some women who are strongly opposed to touching amongst strangers are uptight, pretentious, patronizing, and hypocritical bitches.


Said who? God?



Gentleman Bastard said:


> But anyways, we seem to be missing each other's points. Is a random stranger coming up to a woman and grabbing/smacking her ass not disrespectful and a violations of their boundaries? That's all I'm saying. It being creepy is besides the point I'm making.


It would depend on the woman's boundaries. Mine would be dependent on how it's done.


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

Veggie said:


> Said who? God?


No, says most people who actually have boundaries regarding their bodies and strangers.



Veggie said:


> It would depend on the woman's boundaries. Mine would be dependent on how it's done.


How a complete, random stranger DOES IT is irrelevant. That to me sounds like you have little respect for your body and personal space. I would think differently if it were someone you knew or were friends with, but a fucking stranger? Nah. :laughing:


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Gentleman Bastard said:


> No, says most people who actually have boundaries regarding their bodies and strangers.
> 
> 
> 
> How a complete, random stranger DOES IT is irrelevant. That to me sounds like you have little respect for your body and personal space. I would think differently if it were someone you knew or were friends with, but a fucking stranger? Nah. :laughing:


Dude. You are being so ridiculously offensive. Like, do you get that? Way more so than some idiot who would smack my ass on a dare because he's drunk.

*Actually* have boundaries? I have boundaries plenty, which is why I'll go head to head with you, internet stranger, all fucking night on this if you want. Being intellectually disrespected is what makes me burn over anything.


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## johnaton smith (Jan 5, 2014)

most people tell me im creepy because i stare at... everyone, ha ha ha


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

Veggie said:


> Said who? God?
> 
> 
> 
> It would depend on the woman's boundaries. Mine would be dependent on how it's done.


I understand what you're saying, I really do but that's worrying that you don't see it as a problem tbqh.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> I understand what you're saying, I really do but that's worrying that you don't see it as a problem tbqh.


Why? Why is it worrying internet stranger? Proponent of "let it out" and "let's stop bullying!" from what I've seen of your posts?

Am I not being fucking bullied right now? It's so ridiculous.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

If you have to ask the question...that usually means something. Ever met a girl who creeped you out?


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> I understand what you're saying, I really do but that's worrying that you don't see it as a problem tbqh.


I'll add this too. What's worrying are the number of people who don't seem to understand that the world isn't full of their mommy's and daddy's. That people will go to war with and kill each other. That you would be "worried" that I don't care if a drunk guy smacks my ass when you don't even know me, are obviously projecting something personal due to that, and trying to act like whatever is egotistically going on in your head is something virtuous (if it is? Argument, please? We aren't eight. Please don't make it personal either - critical thinking and *respect* - that word that everyone loves to throw around and yet....don't seem to get...unless we're in the realm of popular opinion).


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

Veggie said:


> Dude. You are being so ridiculously offensive. Like, do you get that? Way more so than some idiot who would smack my ass on a dare because he's drunk.
> 
> 
> *Actually* have boundaries? I have boundaries plenty, which is why I'll go head to head with you, internet stranger, all fucking night on this if you want. Being intellectually disrespected is what makes me burn over anything.



Well then, it seems like you have some boundaries after all :wink: I'm glad you caught onto that. This internet stranger would be delighted to intellectually smack that ass all night long. roud:



Veggie said:


> I'll add this too. What's worrying are the number of people who don't seem to understand that the world isn't full of their mommy's and daddy's. That people will go to war with and kill each other. That you would be "worried" that I don't care if a drunk guy smacks my ass when you don't even know me, are obviously projecting something personal due to that, and trying to act like whatever is egotistically going on in your head is something virtuous (if it is? Argument, please? We aren't eight. Please don't make it personal either - critical thinking and *respect* - that word that everyone loves to throw around and yet....don't seem to get...unless we're in the realm of popular opinion).


Ahem. Que?


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Gentleman Bastard said:


> Well then, it seems like you have some boundaries after all :wink: I'm glad you caught onto that. This internet stranger would be delighted to intellectually smack that ass all night long. roud:


Lol, you're the one who caught onto it  I know that I have boundaries...and I'm honest about what they are.

All night intellectual ass smacking sounds intriguing.


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## William I am (May 20, 2011)

Veggie said:


> I'll add this too. What's worrying are the number of people who don't seem to understand that the world isn't full of their mommy's and daddy's. That people will go to war with and kill each other. That you would be "worried" that I don't care if a drunk guy smacks my ass when you don't even know me, are obviously projecting something personal due to that, and trying to act like whatever is egotistically going on in your head is something virtuous (if it is? Argument, please? We aren't eight. Please don't make it personal either - critical thinking and *respect* - that word that everyone loves to throw around and yet....don't seem to get...unless we're in the realm of popular opinion).



Because you approving of it is rare, and other women by and large don't approve of it. By condoning that kind of behaviour, you're rewarding people who do that and giving them incentive to do it to other women who are not ok with it. You're not the only one involved in the situation, like it or not. 



@_tanstaafl28_ No. Never met any woman who creeped me out. Met a couple I thought might be mentally unstable or bad to be around. 

I did once get followed around a discount grocery store by a superduper gay older guy (45?) and every time he saw me, he clicked his tongue and went "mmm mm mmmm". Then he happened to be in the checkout line when I was and came up to me and offered me a free haircut. Now THAT was creepy, but mostly because of the clucking and "mm mm"ing. I'm not sure he knew I could hear him, but that was what was creepy - plus I was feeling exceedingly vulnerable and was toootally broke at the time and almost tempted to take him up on his offer of a haircut. If he had just come up and talked to me from the get-go, that would have been better.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

William I am said:


> Because you approving of it is rare, and other women by and large don't approve of it. By condoning that kind of behaviour, you're rewarding people who do that and giving them incentive to do it to other women who are not ok with it. You're not the only one involved in the situation, like it or not.


Why in the HELL am I supposed to care about women who disrespect me? Seriously? I find that so hilarious. Men don't feel the need to care about the "douchebags" who treat them like idiots...why should I feel the need to care about women who I find to be total cunts?

I like what I like = True feminism.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Veggie said:


> Why in the HELL am I supposed to care about women who disrespect me? Seriously? I find that so hilarious. Men don't feel the need to care about the "douchebags" who treat them like idiots...why should I feel the need to care about women who I find to be total cunts?
> 
> I like what I like = True feminism.


Why am I not surprised that you're a 7? :tongue:


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Girl creep examples (again, don't love that word - but women I'd be extremely leery to trust):










(Remember when Rowling had Umbridge gang raped by centaurs? Feminism doesn't have to equal hand holding).



















(^Selma Blair)


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## William I am (May 20, 2011)

Veggie said:


> Why in the HELL am I supposed to care about women who disrespect me? Seriously? I find that so hilarious. Men don't feel the need to care about the "douchebags" who treat them like idiots...why should I feel the need to care about women who I find to be total cunts?
> 
> I like what I like = True feminism.



I think you misunderstood what I said. I'll rephrase.

You don't exist in a vacuum, so what you like is irrelevant compared to the group of people you represent - like it or not. When you reward men for doing things like that, it makes them do it to other women - most of whom would hate to be groped by a stranger. You're perpetuating rape culture.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

William I am said:


> I think you misunderstood what I said. I'll rephrase.
> 
> You don't exist in a vacuum, so what you like is irrelevant compared to the group of people you represent - like it or not. When you reward men for doing things like that, it makes them do it to other women - most of whom would hate to be groped by a stranger. You're perpetuating rape culture.


I didn't misunderstand what you said at all, and if I'm perpetuating rape culture because I don't care if a guy playfully grabs my ass if it doesn't feel demeaning to me...then I guess I'm perpetuating rape culture. What now? Am I stoned in the streets? Am I slut shamed? 

That's kind of dangerous thinking, right? Seriously, that's "marijuana is a gateway drug!" thinking, and "homosexual marriage leads to pedophilia!" thinking. I guess I think of rape as rape. (I'm not letting these guys rape me, by the way). 

Here's what's also funny - other women need to realize that they, too, do not exist in a vacuum  We all have our *own* boundaries. It's up to them to enforce those boundaries. Not me. The group of people that I "represent" is a group full of individual human beings, most of whom want equal and individual rights. That works for us all. What I like is irrelevant? So whose opinion *is* the relevant one? That's completely ridiculous. Obviously, every opinion within the group is relevant within society built on equality.

Also, if women think they can act like immature judgmental assholes (so much worse than just being catty because it's lacking in self awareness) and expect sisterhood (many do), they're completely delusional. Not everyone is going to go along with that. Especially not in a world where men are becoming increasingly cowardly, imo, and find protecting and defending women to be an archaic and sexist expectation. 

When you put on your big girl panties in the face of that, you have to put on the negative aspects as well. You don't pout about them like a child, throw temper tantrums, vilify women who won't go along with you and insist that you shouldn't have to use street smarts (well, guess what, dumbass, you might still get raped whether you feel that you "should" or "shouldn't" - deal and toughen up! <A statement meant to help, btw). If it's really bothering these women, than perhaps they should go back to behaving in a more lady-like fashion if they want men to act like gentlemen. *That's* equality. 

Making this about "women" and not myself now, I am just as concerned about the Dolores Umbridges as they probably are about me.

The Dolores Umbridge stereotype (since we've covered "douchebag" and the creepy guy categories):

Dolores Umbridges don't know that they are Dolores Umbridge. They'll often have self serving agendas that they parade as altruism (it only goes as far as said agenda and their closed mindedness), but they would sell you up the river for a dollar in a minute if their therapist or boss told them to, because they don't think for themselves. You're only as good as the last thing that you've done for them. They're often the types who would dislike Dolores Umbridge or other villains, and joke about cruel and unusual punishments served to these characters or people (since they see the world in black and white, as long as you're one of the bad guys in the black category - fuck you!) 

They act like complete and total heinous bitches to guys they've determined are misogynists (a word thrown around extremely liberally, as a general rule), only fueling the cycle of disrespect and hatred (which effects me too!) They project their own shame and guilt onto others, making them uncomfortable (that "creepy" feeling). Their thinking is about as preventative as throwing a blanket on a bull in a china shop and pretending that it isn't there (again, unsettling, untrustworthy, and creepy). 

Their rules don't allow an area for grey, and they oppress women more than they liberate them.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

@Veggie


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## Nordom (Oct 12, 2011)

I don't know what the word for Heroine of Man Rights is but I'm calling it a @Veggie.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

@FreeBeer - Thank you  @Iamtp - Haha. You're lucky you have penises. I'm a bit cynical towards everyone right now, but since I'm sexually attracted to men, you get a little more grace 

I'll add this too, that my posts are coming from someone who actually has dealt with violence and violation. I've never been raped, but I've been robbed (once of basically literally everything that I owned - luckily I got most of it back), I've been stalked (dude was waiting for me in my apartment where he had apparently been living while I was away for the weekend), I've been chased down in the city by a dude with a knife, and I've had a dude pull a knife on me and threaten to stab me in the throat because I got involved in a dangerous situation for a loved one (female). That was a turning point in my life. I'm not Mother Theresa. I pick my battles more carefully now, too.

I've lost free thinking friends to suicide, to drugs and to psych wards. Almost ended up in one myself, to be honest, and had other female friends abandon me in that time period. It was guys who weren't afraid to be a little inappropriate and honest, mostly, who pulled me out of that place. (And my mom. She acts like a demure little ESFJ, but she is one fierce and self aware lady, lol).

I like to think I at least try to be more humanitarian without the sugar coating...if anything.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

William I am said:


> I don't mean to be attacking you, but I think your expectations of other people are unrealistic


No, *yours* are.

What you're essentially telling me is that I should sacrifice myself for total strangers. Total strangers who I guarantee would not do the same thing for me. Again, I am not Mother Theresa (who was apparently existentially depressed a good bit of her life), nor am I a masochist...or Batman defending Gotham City.

What's funny is that I actually took that kind of shit seriously. I mean, really seriously. I'm still struggling with it. (A lot of these chicks will be the first to condescend my spiritual beliefs too - like in a discredit your life and make you and everyone else think that you're crazy kind of way. So now I'm just supposed to be doing this because?! Like honestly - are these chicks fucking retarded?!)

Have you seen a woman offer any support of any kind on this thread? No. Guess what? I'm used to that. I was the little weirdo who was shunned by snobby chicks as a kid, and then I was shunned because their boyfriends had crushes on me when I got older. I've had very few legitimate female friends throughout my life (most of them have been above average in attractiveness because of jealousy). Despite that? 

My brand of girl support has been more this:










...than this:










(^ Let's place her in between that couple there with a ruler)

So, the actual kind, not the imaginary, theoretical kind, that can save a life in the moment, and not some hypothetical future. It's because I know how it feels to be that person, and I have empathy for them. Something that absolutely can be abused and drained when it isn't returned, which is about where I am now.

This video is like a fantasy of mine (I probably wouldn't get past the main lining chardonnay, trying to remember fun, to the "once I let a cab driver finger me" part though...I'm more Fe in person):






Only then I'm sure I'd get a "We need to talk to you about your drinking problem" intervention (sparked by maybe, like, a glass of wine, because despite their claims that they aren't prudes - "but sometimes I use handcuffs in the bedroom!" - yea...a lot of us are doing that honey. Only some of us were brought up on the whole "lady in the streets, freak in the sheets" sort of mentality, and would have a near heart attack at the thought of our grandparents ever finding a public declaration or something...but whatever, I'm flying the freak flag from here on out), by a bunch of girls with patronizing looks on their faces, creeping me the fuck out, because obviously they don't actually care or even really know me. (Most of the fun girls have all just about totally gone nuts or reserve their socialization for play dates because they have kids, in my experience).

It's puritanical...but worse. Back in the day they weren't expected to sit in fluorescent lighting all day at desks and what not, it wasn't insult upon injury to their spirit. Women can be victim to more than rape, you know? Death gets you in many ways.

Also - to anyone who just flagrantly throws around words that hold weight without intention, that is absolutely damaging as well:

Crazy Making Emotional Abuse, Domestic Violence & Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder

So you know how we're all different and stuff? Like how typology is the premise of the site? We're all gonna have different ways of dealing, too. If some women want to cry it out on a couch or turn to prescriptions, fine, but if others want to make light and deal that way? ALSO FINE. (It's funny, because I actually have liked your posts, and I remember my very first interaction with you. You told me that you loved me on a dark humor thread, lol. (I have a bizarre memory...this was a long time ago). Getting support on a thread like that meant a lot to me, because it was this kind of (inappropriate) humor):






So what's up? Where do you really stand on all of this?


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Gentleman Bastard said:


> But @Veggie, your body is your body. If you're ok with that, alright. I still feel like your boundaries are a bit too lax but whatever. What I still disagree on though was your use of that example to criticize other women for being too uptight, prude, etc. I agree that some women out there are too averse to being touched but most women wouldn't be comfortable with what you're comfortable with. It's abnormal. I disapprove. But that's you.


My boundaries are probably a lot more common than women let on or men realize. 

That Amy Schuman video? How many times have I been the stupid girl? I wouldn't have said what she said, right? How many women are waiting to be given the green light to be more honest about this stuff?

To those who are - my posts should be refreshing. To those who aren't - if they question whether they're uptight, prude, etc...then maybe they can join the rest of us here who are insecure about being perceived as sluts or "creeps" on planet earth...off their high horse.


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## Bahburah (Jul 25, 2013)

So basically risk being creepy or don't do anything at all.


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## Winters (Apr 7, 2014)

Bahburah said:


> So basically risk being creepy or don't do anything at all.


Well yes...


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## Uncouth Angel (Nov 26, 2011)

Bahburah said:


> So basically risk being creepy or don't do anything at all.


 And often, being creepy is _worse_ than doing nothing. 

"Creepy" is my least favorite word in the English language. It has been predicated to describe me more than any other that I know of. And during none of these occasions, at any point in my life, was I ever trying to creep anyone out. 

Sometimes, this was because I was making an active effort to woo over some girl who didn't turn out to be interested in me at all. I received all sorts of contradictory advice, such as "be yourself", which is more or less the equivalent of "do nothing". Unfortunately, if you're a guy, nothing tends to come from nothing. And trying to go by the advice of someone like David DeAngelo and the various pickup artists usually required acting in a way that was contradictory to my own nature, struggling to create some other aggressive alpha male persona that wasn't me. 

Needless to say, most of my life was wretchedly lonely and ill at ease in any crowd until I met my girlfriend. At least we'd known each other online first for four years. I don't miss anything about being single at all.


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## Bahburah (Jul 25, 2013)

Uncouth Angel said:


> And often, being creepy is _worse_ than doing nothing.
> 
> "Creepy" is my least favorite word in the English language. It has been predicated to describe me more than any other that I know of. And during none of these occasions, at any point in my life, was I ever trying to creep anyone out.
> 
> ...


Well in my experience doing nothing will leave you with nothing.
I feel girls want you to be "creepy" if it's in a genuine way, since if you have the obvious knowledge of something and act like you don't, this comes off as creepy.

It's all about following your intuition, yet much easier said than done...

But you would be a fool to take advice about women from me.


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## emerald sea (Jun 4, 2011)

i have heard men labeled as "creepy" for reasons such as these:

- lewd stares that make her feel violated, unsafe, or degraded (it depends on the woman and the man involved, what emotional impact his stare will have on her)

- behavior the woman views as unacceptably perverted (women have widely varying ranges of tolerance for overtly sexual expression, it depends on the woman in question what - if anything - bothers her)

- obsessive or persistently (can't-take-no-for-an-answer) demonstrated interest from a man she either finds repulsive, or who is so much older than her that his interest feels "pedophilish" to her

- leering from a "dirty old man"

- physical appearance, bearing, demeanor, facial expression, or style of interaction that makes him seem like a threat to her safety in some way (e.g. maybe his clothes look like he just crawled out from under a bridge and he is showing interest in her or coming up to ask her a question and she clutches her purse tighter, or maybe he is acting suspiciously and she suspects he may be involved in violent crime, or maybe he has an "ax murderer" type of expression on his face that frightens her, etc.)

"creepiness" is in the eye of the beholder. 

unfortunately, some women seem to classify eligible men into two categories: "cute" and "creepy." the men in both groups could act exactly the same way towards her, but if she feels attracted towards them, they're "cute" and if she feels repulsed towards them, they're "creepy" - that's her way of saying she feels creeped out by men showing interest in her when she isn't interested in them. there is nothing about the "creepy" men that is actually "creepy" - that's just her way of stating her emotional response of lack of interest in them.


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## 626Stitch (Oct 22, 2010)

@VIIZZY I hadn't actually read your post, was justresponding to the general question. It is useful to know cultural norms. Peopleshould absolutely try and improve their communication skills by understandingthe norms you pointed out. However I think the basic ethical rule whichunderpins socialising is that if someone chooses to reject you that is theirperfect right. I also believe that if you choose to not continue socialisingwith someone and have no reason to believe they have malicious intentions you havesome responsibility to try and communicate your disinterest in a respectfulway. 

The point you made about women being penalised for communicatingovertly is a valid point. This creates a vicious dynamic where some men learnthat it pays to ignore the subtler forms of communication by the women andwomen are both empowered and compelled to defend their boundaries ever moreaggressively.


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## illow (Dec 23, 2012)

William I am said:


> What the hell are you talking about? Deal with the fact that I care about some things and show it.
> 
> @_Veggie_ - I don't mean to be attacking you, but I think your expectations of other people are unrealistic, and I do think that your attitude perpetuates rape-friendly culture. I don't think you're a bad person for it. In situations where people know other people are more flexible about that, great - good for you. But when women constantly deal with men treating them like property that they have a right to touch, play with, cat-call at, rape, beat, and so on, I think it's more important to have solidarity than to focus on individual rights and abilities that most women don't have or don't exercise.
> 
> ...


You sound passionate about it for real, only certain women fall into those common misconceptions, i dont know how you figured out my attitudes and culture, but i actually respect women.


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## SweetPickles (Mar 19, 2012)

When they stare for too long, or violate your physical space, when they show no notice or consideration of your discomfort, or say inappropriate sexual things. I don't know, some people just give off that creepy vibe and they could have done none of the above. I have encountered men who just set off my internal red flag creeper alarm. You just want to get as far away as possible, immediately.


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## eydimork (Mar 19, 2014)

Either I should be an actor or 9/10 creep-radars are whacked. Has anyone else tried being a creep on purpose? Not to anyone specific, I mean singling out one person is just mean, but in a group of people? Most people are tools. I should be the next Batman.


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## SweetPickles (Mar 19, 2012)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> Most girls in my English class call the teacher a creep. What does he do? He seems to be following every nominal social convection there is make eye contact, smile, laugh, be encouraging. It's not like he's overdoing it. I think the girls are just insecure and think anything is an advance, maybe I'm naive but I'm not seeing how a married English teacher with several children and a happy family is interested in some teenagers. It looks like they are just living in fear to me, take it easy for once I can't even tell if it's a joke or if it's serious. It comes off as downright repulsive to me when people do this.


You are naive.


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## illow (Dec 23, 2012)

MelanieM said:


> When they stare for too long, or *violate your physical space*, when they show no notice or consideration of your discomfort, or say inappropriate sexual things. I don't know, some people just give off that creepy vibe and they could have done none of the above. I have encountered men who just set off my internal red flag creeper alarm. You just want to get as far away as possible, immediately.


How do people do that without you responding, i'd take responsibility for my space...being aware ot it and making it mine. If its violated I'd state my position clearly. Its not school.


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## SweetPickles (Mar 19, 2012)

illow said:


> How do people do that without you responding, i'd take responsibility for my space...being aware ot it and making it mine. If its violated I'd state my position clearly. Its not school.


When did I say I wouldn't respond?


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## illow (Dec 23, 2012)

MelanieM said:


> When did I say I wouldn't respond?


What your describing gave that vibe.


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## Tridentus (Dec 14, 2009)

It's because the people who don't have the proper regard and awareness of social boundaries are the ones who are most likely to be a psycho.

It's a self-preservation thing.. Obviously not every guy who acts creepy at one stage or another is dangerous, but they're the ones that often are. Even if they aren't dangerous, it increases the risk that they could have other negative things for you as well, like embarrassing you in other people's company if you become associated with them, or sending your next bf/gf a warning note or something.

It's the dual threat of danger and the threat of being implicated of being associated with them (them being established now as someone who probably has low social value since they have poor social awareness).


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## Winters (Apr 7, 2014)

Tridentus said:


> It's because the people who don't have the proper regard and awareness of social boundaries are the ones who are most likely to be a psycho.
> 
> It's a self-preservation thing.. Obviously not every guy who acts creepy at one stage or another is dangerous, but they're the ones that often are. Even if they aren't dangerous, it increases the risk that they could have other negative things for you as well, like embarrassing you in other people's company if you become associated with them, or sending your next bf/gf a warning note or something.
> 
> It's the dual threat of danger and the threat of being implicated of being associated with them (them being established now as someone who probably has low social value since they have poor social awareness).


Well, dangerous is different from creepy, in the sense that most women find dangerous situations exhilarating.

On a side note, test this one day ... just star at women in a cafeteria or food court what ever. 
I like to test things, anyhow I basically stared at women like stare them down. This would be considered very very creepy yes?
Some looked at me and looked away and looked again, some smiled. I got 2 that frowned and looked up again to see if i was still looking.

It all comes back to if they think you are attractive... that all. IF i had crappy cloths on and looked like i was a drunk that would be creepy, but i had nice cloths on, hair was combed lol. It also depends on confidence, if i looked away from some of them they would think i am shady as well. 

Rambling a bit and only on my 1st coffee so but the just is there.


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## Elvish Lives (Nov 29, 2013)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> No, it's not.


Social interactions--like comedy--are all about timing and delivery. Awkwardness has everything to do with _creepy_. It doesn't have anything to do with who these guys really are because women don't really know who these guys are. The "creepy" guy who bagged your groceries might spend $100 a week feeding strays off his mom's back porch, while the suave supervisor you fantasize about at work might have a hidden camera that records every sexual encounter he has.


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

There's different types of creepy. There's the creepy guy that gives you the *****. That's typically a guy that stares at you like you're naked with a gross look like he's a dog staring at steak. But he's not dangerous. Just disgusting. 

Then there's the creepy guy who makes you scared. That's the creepy guy that looks to you like he's going to own you. And it's a flicker behind the eyes, not as apparent. 

Then there's the creepy type that's pathetic and makes you feel bad. That's the type that's really only creepy because they're like 'Johnny on the spot!" - now I'm not talking about him having his phone next to him and responding like a person who has a phone sitting next to him. I'm talking the guy who emails you the MINUTE he gets home right after seeing you (not the excited just met you phase. Like weeks down the road). I can elaborate but I'll start feeling bad which is why this type of creepy guy gets the fade treatment I presume. 

The first type gets facial expressions that look like the woman wants to barf. And the second type mentioned gets the look like pseudo confidence so he doesn't smell fear while the girl grips her keys like super shredder claws or something. 


men are scary.


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

I'll say it again. Men. Are by and large, scary. Creepy is generally the precursor behavior to that little alarm in your head that says, RUN!! ... RUN - AWAY !!! Lol! :tongue:


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## Elvish Lives (Nov 29, 2013)

NK said:


> men are scary.




_NK's Field Guide to North American Creepers_ will be appearing in local bookstores this Christmas.

It sometimes seems like a miracle that people ever get together at all...alcohol is the only plausible explanation.


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

Elvish Lives said:


> _NK's Field Guide to North American Creepers_ will be appearing in local bookstores this Christmas.
> 
> It sometimes seems like a miracle that people ever get together at all...alcohol is the only plausible explanation.


:tongue:


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## hazell (Apr 24, 2014)

VIIZZY said:


> You're right; it's not meant to be prejudice towards shy/awkward guys but they can easily come across as creepy.


Do you have any advice on a person like that could come off as less creepy ? :/ Presumably I feel "hostility" from women sometimes, I usually wouldn't have thought it's because I come off as creepy though.


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## Draco Solaris (Apr 8, 2013)

I have been called creepy, sometimes in jest, sometimes at least half-seriously. I'm guessing it's because I'm very quiet most of the time and, unless I'm comfortable around the people in question, don't usually speak unless spoken to. Also constantly staring around at others. I think I appear less creepy now though, more likely just because I'm better at not appearing so than actually having changed my habits.


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## VIIZZY (Mar 22, 2014)

hazell said:


> Do you have any advice on a person like that could come off as less creepy ? :/ Presumably I feel "hostility" from women sometimes, I usually wouldn't have thought it's because I come off as creepy though.


Broad tip? Research the fuck out of body language; if you can take a class on interpersonal relationships definitely do so. 
For now you can find a crap ton of articles on your own about body language; figure out how you're presenting yourself and whether women are giving you signs to back off. If you can figure that out then try something that is characteristically 'not you' and see how that works; I'm suggesting this as just experimenting and don't want you to change your entire being. 

Know your own values and what values you want in a partner; do you want a conservative woman? Yes? Where would you most likely find a conservative woman? Etc. Want a party-going woman? Yes? Go to clubs during your free time. Want a woman who's the same religion (or lack there of) as you? Yes? Where do you think you can meet women like that? 

Most common places that people actually meet perspective significant others is at work and school; if you're still in school join clubs that interest you and be open and sociable with others. If you're not in school look at joining community based organizations. 

In the work force when approaching a woman be casual; not nervous or aggressive, ask the woman you have in mind out for a coffee etc. Really simple things like coffee are a great way to get your foot in the door.


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## Brian1 (May 7, 2011)

I'm trying to read this right, you're saying,I don't mean to put words in your mouth,the person who wants you as a sexual partner,can be considered creepy,but there's potential there for each person to have an fulfilled time time equally, whereas can I snip some hair guy, just comes across as Norman Bates going through his Madonna/Whore struggles, red flag stay away from?



Enfpleasantly said:


> I know...it's hard to put words to it, because it's a feeling.
> 
> All I keep thinking in my head is that it's the physical form of passive aggression. And I like how you said it's about boundaries. The boundaries feel like the person wants to keep you in such a way, that even a clump of your hair would do (if that's all they could get). It's not the same feeling a person gives when they want you to be their SO or even just a sexual partner...it's like, they want to KEEP you.
> 
> Apparently creepy is greatly tied to the obsessive, the serial killers, stalker types to me.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

As an aside, l find men who weird other men out to be just as creepy so it really isn't all about 'creepy male-helpless female', especially the kind who seek to have dominance over other men in really insignificant situations.


You'd think it'd be the macho type, but l don't find that creepy as much as it's simply transparent and annoying. More so the covertly manipulative dominant vibe.

Not as easy to deal with, and probably not as often called creepy.


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

Brian1 said:


> I'm trying to read this right, you're saying,I don't mean to put words in your mouth,the person who wants you as a sexual partner,can be considered creepy,but there's potential there for each person to have an fulfilled time time equally, whereas can I snip some hair guy, just comes across as Norman Bates going through his Madonna/Whore struggles, red flag stay away from?


Yes, I think this is right. It's very hard to describe, because it's a feeling. I don't think the person has to necessarily be sexual in their actions to seem creepy. For me, the underlying factor is that you can't totally write off the idea that the person might keep you locked in their home for at least several hours and not let you go, at the very least.


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