# INFJ or INTJ? Would like to settle it once & for all & for now. Speak! Help!



## MaggieMay (Dec 27, 2014)

I have been labeled both INFJ and INTJ whilst testing. 
I see correlations and similarities towards both. I am fairly positive I am INFJ, but I'd like some confirmation from others. Thank you!
-MJ:kitteh:
*
1) What aspect of your personality made you unsure of your type?
*
When I first began my small quest to find out my true personality stance, I immediately got INFJ. 
Most everything I related to, down to the "just knowing" instincts and feelings. However, when I took the test again I received INTJ; I can be very jaded with people and I do not feel as fragile as the descriptions of INFJ. I feel out-spoken about things that I value and sometimes I will argue great lengths to see that those convictions are not infringed. I also rationalize my feelings- if someone upsets me I try to view the why behind what they are doing, I don't immediately act on my feelings unless I feel the heat of the moment strongly. Inwardly, I feel intellectual- I love the big questions of life. 
*
2) What do you yearn for in life? Why?*

Understanding. 
For those in my life to make wise decisions. I hate seeing smart people make dumb choices on purpose. 
I long for someone to appreciate what I do and how I think, to be acknowledged. I yearn for adventure most of all. I've always been a homebody & I do love my family and the idea of a family unit- but I crave adventure like water. 

I feel it is necessary to my existence that I protect those I love and that I make an impact on the world. I long to be loved for everything I am, even the bad parts, but sometimes I am too shy to admit that I *need* to be loved- it makes me feel a sense of weakness. It's odd.

*3) Think about a time where you felt like you were at your finest. Tell us what made you feel that way. *

Proving a point well and proving myself right. I don't like when people look or talk down to me. People who try to intimidate me lose all of my respect. 

I love to help others, especially in dire needed emotional crisis's; but I also find people extremely draining and I need to be alone a lot, in my own thoughts. 

*4) What makes you feel inferior?*

Being left out or not being listened to. 
When my wounds are only dressed by myself. 
When I question what I have accomplished; my husband tells me I am a perfectionist & set my standards too high for myself but I feel I am obligated to be *more*. I'm not sure if that makes sense.

*
5) What tends to weigh on your decisions? (Do you think about people, pro-cons, how you feel about it, etc.)*

I always strive for the truth and what will better me and those around me. If it will become a solution or a problem. 
Mostly though, I go with what my gut tells me to; I have learned to always trust my instincts- they've yet to misinform me. 

*6) When working on a project what is normally your emphasis? Do you like to have control of the outcome?*

I like to do it well, if that's the drift. If it has my name I want it to be my best efforts. 
There's something about uncertainty that scares me and excites me all at once, I like to think it is a game of fate's hand. I usually like to know of the outcome but something in me always tells me to let it be and I will have whatever my efforts are worthy of. So that would tend to be a no, I think. 

*
7) Describe us a time where you had a lot of fun. How is your memory of it?*

Walking on the railroad tracks with friends in high school. 
I remember laughing, thinking to myself how in just a few hours it would only be a memory (if we weren't killed by a train, of course, and I reminded them how they say you cannot hear a train from behind you! Lol.)
I remember their faces and how care-free it felt, I was content, I was happy. 
*
8) When you want to learn something new, what feels more natural for you? (Are you more prone to be hands on, to theorize, to memorize, etc)*

Hands on all the way. Someone could tell me 10x how to do something or to go get something but if they are not completely exact then I will pretend to know what they are talking about in an attempt to not look incompetent but I will be back defeated in 10 minutes to ask them to show me or for more information on what I was supposed to be doing. I must see and do it myself. 
*
9) How organized do you to think of yourself as?
*
I feel odd with this one because I can be very very OCD but only about certain things- color coding M&Ms, how I put dishes on the rack, how groceries go on the conveyer belt at the grocery and in the cart, ect. 
But I tend to be a "messy" housekeeper; once I've had enough I will clean it all in one night and not do it again for a week and a half. 

*10) How do you judge new ideas? Do you try to understand the principles behind it to see if they make sense or do you look for information that supports it?*

I would think those go hand in hand. Normally when presented with a new idea I question it's authenticity and if it makes sense. I will listen to it and may ask questions to help me further understand the idea, I look inwardly to my thoughts to see if I can support it. 

*
11) You find harmony by making sure everyone is doing fine and belonging to a given group or by making sure that you follow what you believe and being yourself?*

I've always been the odd one out so I will watch over people and that gives me a sense of harmony when they belong but more so the latter- my convictions drive me in everything. 
*
12) Are you the kind that thinks before speaking or do you speak before thinking? Do you prefer one-on-one companionship? *

I think before I speak, almost always. I am a quick thinker though so I feel like I tend to come off differently. Yes, I will take one on one over any crowd. 

*13) Do you jump into action right away or do you like to know where are you jumping before leaping? Do actions speak more than words?*

Depends on the situation. 
I like to act fast but I must know where I am jumping before leaping. 
Yes, words are cheap and can be taken back and promises broken- prove what you say by your actions. They make a bigger statement, anyway.


*14) It's Saturday. You're at home, and your favorite show is about to start. Your friends call you for a night out. What will you do?*

Make an excuse to stay at home, unless for some speacial reason I am feeling particularly partial to a night out. 

*15) How do you act when you're stressed out?*

I go crazy. I reiterate my list of things to do- both out loud and pages of lists on paper. 
I make a plan to do everything I can to eliminate whatever is stressing me out. I get cranky and over-whelmed. 
Most days I will want to nap instead but I forge ahead because I feel an obligation to prove that I can handle myself. I become very high-strung and feel "annoying" because the stress drains me and I tend to nag and worry.
*
16) What makes you dislike the personalities of some people?*

Their unwillingness to admit defeat when they are wrong. How materialistic they can be. People who talk down or back to elders infuriates me to the point I want to backhand them. People who try to use force or intimidation to get what they want. Entitlement kills me. People who talk but have no idea what they are talking about. Irrational personalities- the kind that get angry without trying to understand. People whose fun is at other people's expense. I cannot stand a stupid person. Someone who is idiotic to the point of me wanting to smack them. People who are insecure about who they are. Again, I cannot say it enough: stupid people. 
*
17) Is there anything you really like talking about with other people?*

Personalities and how different people are and why they act the way they do. But I enjoy a healthy dose of politics when discussed maturely and properly. Travel wishing. Jesus (which I suppose would be categorized as "religion"). 
The future (assuming they are close to me). I really enjoy conversations about who we are as people and when someone else joins in and understands where I am coming from and I relate to them, those are the best. 
*
18) What kind of things do you pay the least attention to in your life?*

Where I am right now. Socially, what people think of me is irrelevant. 
I guess I can't name a lot because I haven't payed attention to them haha.
I tend to remember small details; eye colors, the fuzz on the carpet, ect.

*19) How do your friends perceive you? What is wrong about their perception? ? What would your friends never say about your personality? *

I think they would say understanding. Supportive. I've been called gentle, loyal, and strong-willed more times than I can count. Artsy. Family-oriented, perhaps. Someone who will listen, they come to me for advice a lot. People tell me I am "wise beyond your years." My true friends call me hot-headed, they know I am feisty but know I always have a reason, especially when it comes to those I love. 

I think a lot of people, when they first encounter me, think I am extroverted because of how I easily I can talk with people that I am unfamiliar with. But after awhile, they realize that I do not intend to become "friends" with everyone I meet and I keep to myself. I only talk out of politeness or seeking a good conversation among others. 
People who do not know me well I think would see me as extremely opinionated and maybe slightly arrogant. I am fairly straight-forward and if I do not like someone they will know it. I don't back down easily. When it comes to my family, I can get very fiery and direct- if I find they are mistreated...God help you. 

Things I don't think they'd say: 
That I am inconsiderate. 
Impolite. 
Disrespectful. 
Nitwit.
Disloyal.
Someone who just does whatever they please because they want to. 
Someone who doesn't count casualties. 
Someone who isn't careful. 
Someone weak. 
Someone who is mousy. 
Someone who abandons their convictions.
Someone hesitant. 
Someone who disregards others for their personal gain. 

*20) You got a whole day to do whatever you like. What kind of activities do you feel like doing?*

-Bubblebath
-Turn on some melodic music & think. 
-Maybe nap. 
-Write & then go for a walk. 
-Draw faces.
-Go horseback riding and maybe even camp out and star-gaze. 




I hope this helps. Thank you for any and all responses!


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## ruskiix (Sep 28, 2013)

DEFINITELY more INFJ than INTJ. INTJs don't doubt themselves as much because of how other people view them. And they don't care what other people think of them this much, I don't think.


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## somnuvore (Sep 27, 2013)

INTJ

INFJs simply don't have the same drive you do for proving yourself right and seeking the truth; as a rule, ethical types prefer to use persuasion, not argumentation; ethical types prove you to be good or bad, not right or wrong. To do it the other way around is as alien to them as it would be for you to use persuasion over argumentation; while they're not incapable, it's simply not preferred. You fit the INXJ structure (esp. with thoroughly disliking aggressiveness) for certain, but the T element is definitely stronger than the F.

For example, take this phrase of yours:



> People who talk down or back to elders infuriates me to the point I want to backhand them.


Had you been an F type, you would have assessed this statement here; instead, you simply expressed it, and let it be. The reason I bring this up is because there's no definitive reason why you feel this way, just that you feel it; what logical types do is they take from example whatever F-influences were around them and assume they're true (because, as stated, considering ethical positions by oneself is uncomfortable for the logical type; they need help in this area, just like F-types need help in areas of logic.) Because you don't naturally critically observe your F-functions, it would be very hard to say you're an F-type (that is, unless you just happen to be having a very very off day when you wrote this, put it out of your mind.)
@ruskiix if you think he's an INFJ because you identify with him, you're very likely an INTJ as well. Being an INTJ is not about never doubting oneself, they just happen to be typically confident in themselves, as all TJ types typically are; it's not a guarantee however, we get slumps too.


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## ruskiix (Sep 28, 2013)

somnuvore said:


> INTJ
> 
> INFJs simply don't have the same drive you do for proving yourself right and seeking the truth; as a rule, ethical types prefer to use persuasion, not argumentation; ethical types prove you to be good or bad, not right or wrong. To do it the other way around is as alien to them as it would be for you to use persuasion over argumentation; while they're not incapable, it's simply not preferred. You fit the INXJ structure (esp. with thoroughly disliking aggressiveness) for certain, but the T element is definitely stronger than the F.
> 
> ...


Drive for being right and seeking truth can come from enneagram, 1 or 5. But using it to perfect yourself is more 1. I've heard other INFJs who prefer using logic to get people to the same point their Fe got them, because if someone doesn't have strong enough Fe to get there already, logic is the only way we know how to fix it. We use Ti for that, and can have very strong Ti. Fe means we want people to understand, and we can't do that without understanding something ourselves. Ti with Fe lets us talk people through understanding in a way they can respond to. So an INFJ who doesn't think someone's Fe will work will explain to someone how they're wrong, when we think something they think is bad.

I may go see if I can an find some INFJ 1 threads. There's an e1 Fe thread where someone else mentioned being really into finding more Te/Ti based reasons for people who do things other people consider "wrong." Mental health issues, social context issues, etc. INFJ 1s can be extremely focused on refining our Ti until we look like INTJs because Fe is messy and leads us to do things that we later think are mistakes. It's reflexive for us. Ti isn't. That makes Ti much easier to control in a way we have better perspective on. We learn to rely on it to monitor the blindspots in our Ni and the reactions we think our wrong that come from our Fe. We definitely use Ti and not Te, although I often go through Te-ish objective information research when I need direction. It feeds my Ni, then I branch off with Ni and Ti to decide for myself. Te feels incomplete for me, though. It isn't the whole picture. My Fe dislikes it sometimes, but I reference it anyway to make sure my Fe really IS seeing a legitimate nuance, and not just biased.


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## ruskiix (Sep 28, 2013)

My last function test was:
Fe (44.3)
Ti (42)

Ni (35.1)
Ne (30.7)
Te (29.7)

Si (25.9)
Se (21.8)

Fi (10.5)


My Ni tested inaccurately low because the questions phrased it in mystical terms, and Ni with strong Ti absolutely does NOT feel magical or supernatural or anything fluffy like that. My Ni is probably about on par with Fe and Ti, probably a little higher, and much higher with the ways I phrase it (deeper meaning through subconscious pattern recognition).


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## somnuvore (Sep 27, 2013)

ruskiix said:


> Drive for being right and seeking truth can come from enneagram, 1 or 5. But using it to perfect yourself is more 1. I've heard other INFJs who prefer using logic to get people to the same point their Fe got them, because if someone doesn't have strong enough Fe to get there already, logic is the only way we know how to fix it. We use Ti for that, and can have very strong Ti. Fe means we want people to understand, and we can't do that without understanding something ourselves. Ti with Fe lets us talk people through understanding in a way they can respond to. So an INFJ who doesn't think someone's Fe will work will explain to someone how they're wrong, when we think something they think is bad.
> 
> I may go see if I can an find some INFJ 1 threads. There's an e1 Fe thread where someone else mentioned being really into finding more Te/Ti based reasons for people who do things other people consider "wrong." Mental health issues, social context issues, etc. INFJ 1s can be extremely focused on refining our Ti until we look like INTJs because Fe is messy and leads us to do things that we later think are mistakes. It's reflexive for us. Ti isn't. That makes Ti much easier to control in a way we have better perspective on. We learn to rely on it to monitor the blindspots in our Ni and the reactions we think our wrong that come from our Fe. We definitely use Ti and not Te, although I often go through Te-ish objective information research when I need direction. It feeds my Ni, then I branch off with Ni and Ti to decide for myself. Te feels incomplete for me, though. It isn't the whole picture. My Fe dislikes it sometimes, but I reference it anyway to make sure my Fe really IS seeing a legitimate nuance, and not just biased.


I see where you're coming from but I must remind you that many logical types mistype as INFJ (I was one of them for a few months, myself.) So my apologies for skewing the image of the INFJ but I must insist that the INFJ will always try persuasion over everything else, because once they switch to logical mode they stop actually thinking for themselves and resort only to what they've heard logical types come up with in the past, which is more so a sign of distress than of normal function usage, assuming the individual is not mistyped. As is the same with my example of the OP listing an ethical principle without evaluating it, it's simply something someone else--perhaps another logical type repeating something they heard, perhaps an ethical type inventing the information--had done, and she doesn't want to cross these borders as they make her uncomfortable so she sticks with the principle of not treating the elderly poorly.

I can understand if an ethical type is actually under distress and resorting to logical arguments, but this is not the norm; what the OP has presented here is (supposed to be) the norm, and if this is the norm, then she's naturally logical, not resorting to another's arguments for help.


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## MaggieMay (Dec 27, 2014)

As I've said I relate to both, I just know that I do use more logical thinking rather than feelings but I still relate a lot to INFJ- the older I get the more I feel driven to be more...intellectual, I guess is the word. My friends I keep very few and my family is everything, protecting my family is something that I feel has a big part of who I am- I am always called deeply loyal and have always felt the need to be protective of my family. Do other people have killer instincts besides INFJs? 

If I could get past my need to pick apart things with logic when things happen (high-emotion fights and such) than I could call myself an INFJ with confidence. Do INFJs get burnt out with people and just not want anything to do with anyone besides family? Because I feel that way now, and I haven't always been like that.

Also, @somnivore it's *she


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## with water (Aug 13, 2014)

MaggieMay said:


> As I've said I relate to both, I just know that I do use more logical thinking rather than feelings but I still relate a lot to INFJ- the older I get the more I feel driven to be more...intellectual, I guess is the word. My friends I keep very few and my family is everything, protecting my family is something that I feel has a big part of who I am- I am always called deeply loyal and have always felt the need to be protective of my family. Do other people have killer instincts besides INFJs?
> 
> If I could get past my need to pick apart things with logic when things happen (high-emotion fights and such) than I could call myself an INFJ with confidence. Do INFJs get burnt out with people and just not want anything to do with anyone besides family? Because I feel that way now, and I haven't always been like that.
> 
> Also, @somnivore it's *she


Claim both. If you fit both, it isn't helpful to prune off one side.


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## somnuvore (Sep 27, 2013)

ruskiix said:


> My last function test was:
> Fe (44.3)
> Ti (42)
> 
> ...


Also, I did read your questionnaire; you do sound like an INTj (in the very least, you are certainly in the Ij temperament, as you are a very static individual), which would explain why your Fe/Ti pair is much higher than everything else. I don't personally like to type by function in the MBTT system, it's just way too messy with all the mistypings and whatnot, so I'm afraid I can't provide any insight beyond this.
@MaggieMay sorry, my brain is going a mile a minute; I caught myself a few times but I suppose I forgot somewhere lol. I don't think you're ever going to stop being nitpicky and logical tho, TJ types are simply like this. You can try--I know I have--but I'm still the same as I've always been. AFAICT one's functional preference just doesn't change; if it does, it happens too slow to recognize it.


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## Windblownhair (Aug 12, 2013)

somnuvore said:


> So my apologies for skewing the image of the INFJ but I must insist that the INFJ will always try persuasion over everything else, because once they switch to logical mode they stop actually thinking for themselves and resort only to what they've heard logical types come up with in the past, which is more so a sign of distress than of normal function usage, assuming the individual is not mistyped.


Wow. This is so wrong it's ridiculous. Heaven forbid we have an original logical thought of our own. Last I checked, the definition for Ti was not "mindlessly regurgitates the logical arguments of others."


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## ruskiix (Sep 28, 2013)

MaggieMay said:


> As I've said I relate to both, I just know that I do use more logical thinking rather than feelings but I still relate a lot to INFJ- the older I get the more I feel driven to be more...intellectual, I guess is the word. My friends I keep very few and my family is everything, protecting my family is something that I feel has a big part of who I am- I am always called deeply loyal and have always felt the need to be protective of my family. Do other people have killer instincts besides INFJs?
> 
> If I could get past my need to pick apart things with logic when things happen (high-emotion fights and such) than I could call myself an INFJ with confidence. Do INFJs get burnt out with people and just not want anything to do with anyone besides family? Because I feel that way now, and I haven't always been like that.
> 
> Also, @_somni_vore it's *she


We absolutely do get burnt out, especially when under a lot of stress. I have a chronic health condition that requires a lot of to us on Si and attempts to control Se better, and find that I don't have much energy to spare for Fe. I have to be extremely selective with how I use it or I can't really access any kind of sensing and lose weeks in an Ni haze.

Ti is an INFJ's tertiary function so it's normal to want to develop it more the older you get. Other types have the same protective instincts, though. Do you find that you mirror body language a lot without meaning to? While watching TV or talking one-on-one? That seems to be a dom and aux Fe thing. Aux Fe also makes me literally feel a spasm of actual pain when I see someone else get hurt or see an injury. We can also want to nitpick other people, especially when stressed. I think our Ni is less monitored by Fe, so we can't stand to not point out when people are wrong.

Do you know your enneagram type or have a few you're torn between? That would help a lot. If you're a 2, you're probably an INTJ. If you're a 1 or 5, you're an INFJ, I think.


I absolutely understand people thinking I'm an INTJ. It's usually my second highest result. I live with an ENFJ (my mom), though, and I'm very familiar with Fe. I'm also really certain I use Ti--my INTP grandfather and I process things in very similar ways and he's surprised by how "intelligent" I am, just because we think in similar ways. Mine is always filtered through Fe, though. I test more as ENFJ than INTJ. My mother also believes I have Fe in my top two, despite being the person I bounce my Ti off of the most.

I believe INFJs are the most common thinking type with 1s, alongside mostly thinking types. It is a confusing combination. But the way we mirror people via Fe is incredibly distinct and not something Fi users do at all. Even ENFPs, who are the most empathetic of the Fi users to me, don't do it.


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## somnuvore (Sep 27, 2013)

Windblownhair said:


> Wow. This is so wrong it's ridiculous. Heaven forbid we have an original logical thought of our own. Last I checked, the definition for Ti was not "mindlessly regurgitates the logical arguments of others."


This would be an example of persuasion. I'm not saying ethical types can't do it, I'm saying they prefer not to, like you just showed me.


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## MaggieMay (Dec 27, 2014)

Quite alright @somnivore lol. 

I've read weird circumstances where INTJs had empathic-like abilities but it's rare. That is why I felt so drawn to INFJ even after I had tested as one. I've grown up with a distinct ability to read people the instant I see them & be correct. Even down to strong feelings of predicting things just by feelings or a "knowing". I don't find INTJs with this so it leaves me questioning. Everything I do is for others and I do not care if people don't see my reasoning. 
@Windblownhair do you relate? And agreed!

Not sure what to think but I appreciate everyone's input very much!
@ruskiix Sorry just seen your comment! Thanks for replying!
Oh good. That helps, thank you. I have been quite burned out here lately & I do nitpick a lot when stressed. 

Yes, when talking to people socially, I will tend to cross my arms if they are doing so or however they are positioned I try to convey the same message back, if that makes sense. 
I relate to the feeling when seeing injury (or even thinking about it!) as well. 

Me ennegramm, when I tested is 6w5 2w1 1w9


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## ruskiix (Sep 28, 2013)

somnuvore said:


> This would be an example of persuasion.


If that's what you mean by persuasion, then I absolutely use that too. It just isn't what I intend to use--it's a last resort. So it isn't what I'd describe myself as. My ISFJ cousin and I both resort to passive aggressive Fe social shaming when we can't convince someone in other ways. Although it's her first attempt, I only use it when Ti doesn't work. But maybe that's just because of the S v N communication gap. It's silly when we duel each other with it.

Also, OP, you have a 5 and a 1 INFJ in here. If you have any questions for intellectual INFJs, ask away. This probably doesn't happen often.


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## somnuvore (Sep 27, 2013)

ruskiix said:


> If that's what you mean by persuasion, then I absolutely use that too. It just isn't what I intend to use--it's a last resort. So it isn't what I'd describe myself as. My ISFJ cousin and I both resort to passive aggressive Fe social shaming when we can't convince someone in other ways. Although it's her first attempt, I only use it when Ti doesn't work. But maybe that's just because of the S v N communication gap. It's silly when we duel each other with it.
> 
> Also, OP, you have a 5 and a 1 INFJ in here. If you have any questions for intellectual INFJs, ask away. This probably doesn't happen often.


Yes, this is what I mean; logical types don't prefer to use persuasion, it's a last resort sort of thing; the reverse is true for ethical types. This is why I'm saying you're a logical type; @Windblownhair was using an emotional tactic to get me to change my mind (and it works well on logical types, I'll say that much); she starts off not with facts or reason, but mere disapproval: she wanted me to feel like I'd done something bad. This is the fundamental difference: logical types think on right/wrong, ethical types think in good/bad. What the OP and you express is logic, not ethics.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to drop out of this thread before any more ethical types get upset about not being perfectly ethical and logical all at once


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## TyranAmiros (Jul 7, 2014)

I'd also vote for INFJ>INTJ. 

I have a good INFJ friend who's in Physics--he doesn't use Te, he gets extremely frustrated by Te, but boy, has he developed his Ti in an attempt to mimic Te. Ni-Ti makes INFJs very good at grasping the entirety of a system without Te's need for evidence. However, the Ni-Ti process can be highly idiosyncratic to the INFJ, so the INFJ's logic may rely on arguments made via Ti that are confirmed by Ni that may not be substantiated. It works great for my friend because he's in theoretical physics where evidence is very theoretical, but our INTJ friends tend to dismiss his work because of the lack of testable propositions. ISTPs also tend to struggle with this. 

The difference between the logic of an INTJ and an INFJ (in addition to the Ti/Te thing) is that the INTJ directly expresses their logic through Te, while the INFJ expresses their Ti logic through Fe. So rather than the direct, in-your-face, here-are-the-facts Te logic you'll get from the INTJ, you get Fe's indirect, let me adjust based on what you need approaches. For example, if you ask an INTJ about what to look for in a new computer, you'll get a list of features. If you ask an INFJ, you'll get a bunch of questions about what you need.

Here's a few things I look for in INTJ vs INFJ:
1. Direct (INTJ) vs indirect (INFJ) approach to giving advice.
2. Universal (INTJ) vs personalized/contextual (INFJ) suggestions
3. Empirical (INTJ) vs purely theoretical (INFJ) evidence 
4. Cynical/skeptical (INTJ) vs hopeful/credulous (INFJ) when approaching new ideas ("Prove it" (INTJ) vs "Tell me about it" (INFJ))

Another example: Nietzsche (INTJ) vs. Plato (INFJ) on the existence of a higher power: Both start with Ni conceptions about the structure of the universe, but while Nietzsche dives into the historical/literary/philosophical evidence, Plato starts with setting up the terms of his system. Thus, while Nietzsche uses others' logic to reject their own conclusions, Plato uses his own logic (the logic of his system) to reject others' conclusions.


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## Windblownhair (Aug 12, 2013)

Had Somnuvore merely expressed his second idea that in the first place, I wouldn't have had a problem.


> logical types don't prefer to use persuasion, it's a last resort sort of thing; the reverse is true for ethical types


However, his original assertion was that feeler types are unable to use original logical thought is something else entirely. 


> So my apologies for skewing the image of the INFJ but I must insist that the INFJ will always try persuasion over everything else, because *once they switch to logical mode they stop actually thinking for themselves and resort only to what they've heard logical types come up with in the past,* which is more so a sign of distress than of normal function usage, assuming the individual is not mistyped.


He doesn't 'prove' anything when he changes his argument midstream.


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

MaggieMay said:


> I have been labeled both INFJ and INTJ whilst testing.
> I see correlations and similarities towards both. I am fairly positive I am INFJ, but I'd like some confirmation from others. Thank you!
> -MJ:kitteh:
> *
> ...


I haven't read your questions but I find seeing the difference between INTJ or INFJ easy beause are the jugdging functis that are different, and the judging functions always stand out more in an individual.

The No.1 INTJ or INFJ question: Are you expressive ?
- INFJ are expressive, they have Fe, they like to use their hands when talking and are facially expressive.
- INTJ are stoic, they only use their hands when talking if they really have to and have no facial expression.
_You can't be both, you either are expressive or aren't, if you answer is "not too much" define "not too much".
saying "not too much" would still mean expressive but that would be an inferior Fe case, and neither has inferior Fe._









_I know some real life INTJs, and even when they're laughing they don't seem to move their face._

Additional info if that's not enough:
- Fe looks at people.
- Te looks at an impersonal factual reality.
- Fe sacrifices the self for the sake of the group.
- Fi is about self's uniqueness and dignity.
- Te is very factual, dragons don't exist, stories with things that don't exist are stupid.
- Ti is very imaginative, what if dragons had 6 wings, 3 heads and 7 tails.
- Te naturally prefers to have conventional methods “the scientific method".
- Ti naturally prefers to have highly personalized methods or strategies.
- Fi subjective preference on a way of dealing with people.
- Ti subjective preference on a way of making sense of things.

- Fi naturally looks more at individual tastes, affections, and causes “My child deserves the world’s best medical care.”
- Fe naturally place greater emphasis on general human welfare and distribute their F concerns more broadly “Why does your child deserve expensive, specialized medical care when there are children in other countries receiving no care at all.”

I hope this helps


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## Windblownhair (Aug 12, 2013)

MaggieMay said:


> I've read weird circumstances where INTJs had empathic-like abilities but it's rare. That is why I felt so drawn to INFJ even after I had tested as one. I've grown up with a distinct ability to read people the instant I see them & be correct. Even down to strong feelings of predicting things just by feelings or a "knowing". I don't find INTJs with this so it leaves me questioning. Everything I do is for others and I do not care if people don't see my reasoning.
> @_Windblownhair_ do you relate? And agreed!


I can relate to that. Knowing my own motivations in helping others is enough; I don't need others to understand it.


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## MaggieMay (Dec 27, 2014)

I was curious about specific differences so that cleared up a lot, @TyranAmiros, thanks!

Thanks as well, @Dezir!


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## ruskiix (Sep 28, 2013)

Yeah, @Dezir, that post is enough to make me think you might be an INTP. Haha. So good at describing the differences, you and @TyranAmiros both!

I think Sam Harris is another high Ti INFJ. Ni+Fe+Ti is an excellent combination for neuropsychiatry. And he loves the neurological side of things like spirituality and meditation--a very INFJ science angle.

And, @somnuvore, I am flattered that I don't seem to use persuasion. But I do think that's an e1 thing for me. I don't think it's acceptable to use Fe to convince people because it doesn't help them and it's manipulative and kind of bullying. I want to explain things to people to help them, and using Fe that way doesn't. The reason I try to be logical is purely Fe, even if it's buried under an unhealthy level of self control. The two INTPs explained the difference well. I base my logic on what a person is looking for. I try not to explain more than they need to know if it'll overwhelm them (I'm bad at this--seems to be an intuitive Ti weakness), I try to understand exactly where they're disagreeing and understand where they're coming from, if they really need to understand, etc. 

If I'm even a little frustrated, any semblance of Te goes out the window and I quickly devolve into Fe arguments. I had a relative post on a cousin's shared Facebook status about Obama. Distant relative has a huge rant about how anyone who agrees with that is drinking the koolaid and not using their brain. My first response was just "Right, everyone who disagrees with you is just drinking the koolaid. Obviously." Then added that it's generally considered rude to assume people must not be using their brains when they disagree with you. He asked a question missing the point again, so I just told him it's inappropriate to say things like that to family. My ENFJ mom was giddy she liked the exchange so much. That kind of thing makes me sort of blind with annoyance--I can't focus on using Te or even Ti at all. I have to be calm for it. 1w9 helps there because I try very hard not to get angry and to hide it when I do, but. When I crack, I'm as IFJ as the rest. The Fe persuasion duels with my ISFJ cousin need to be filmed. Seriously. The time she kept insisting flu vaccines make you sick.. Gah. I got really rude and condescending to make her stop. It didn't work, and her ENFP husband joined in and then my ENFJ mom got swept up. I tried to just leave immediately it annoyed me so much. I also can't at all remember facts in situations like that. I have to go back and reference them constantly. Their meaning sticks, but not their details.


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## sereneone (Aug 1, 2013)

MaggieMay said:


> I have been labeled both INFJ and INTJ whilst testing.
> I see correlations and similarities towards both. I am fairly positive I am INFJ, but I'd like some confirmation from others. Thank you!
> -MJ


Remember that INTJ and INFJ are practically the same type, with some important nuances:

INFJ makes decisions based on feelings. So if you have a friendship that gives you a bad feeling, an INFJ is willing to act on that feeling and use it as a basis for walking away from the relationship. To contrast, INTJ is more like a logic machine and will weigh pros and cons of the relationship, and then INTJ will use the net weight of those points to make a decision. So INTJ will overcome bad feeling with good facts if good facts exist.

Having now listened to your videos and read your blogs, you come across to me as an very INFJ. I don't hear INTJ. I hear plenty of good thinking but your thinking is Ti and you tend to follow a path from A to B and B to C and you tend to think about the whole system and supporting it. INTJ is an optimizing machine and just wants to state A=C and doesn't want to enumerate the middle steps. INTJ is all about logical efficiency and speed of decisions.

The most important thing we need to investigate you further is your cognitive functions test results. Do you have that? If you talked about that and I missed it sorry. I did not read the entire post.


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