# ENTP or ESTP? Help me type DH for once and all.



## reas (Jan 7, 2013)

We've been together 13 years. For most of that time I've believed DH to be an ENTP. Recently, though, I'm wondering if he's an ESTP. I think he's either a _very_ sensual ENTP, or a _very_ eccentric ESTP. 

E, T, and P are all incredibly obvious. But the S/N decision is hard for me to make. I'm hoping someone here will see something I'm missing in the bigger picture.

(I haven't described him in terms of cognitive functions partly because I'm not convinced of the validity of the model. But feel free to talk about his Ne or Se if you like.)

I apologize in advance for the long post. Thanks for taking the time to help me think about this. 


What makes me think ESTP (or just S):What makes me think ENTP (or just N)He loves working in the yard and gardening.He designed and built his own composter from two garbage cans and some other parts; he uses his own diluted pee as fertilizer.He loves cooking and preserving food. He adores eating.He enjoys cooking with unusual ingredients and making unusual foods. He will literally eat anything: he’s eaten preserved chrysalis and crab-infused Schnapps. For lunch, he’ll drive around in weird neighborhoods looking for the weirdest eateries he can find.He loves hiking, camping, and roughing it.He hates – _hates _– organized sports. Thinks they’re for stupid conformist meatheads.He loves making music and listening to music.He enjoys learning to play unusual instruments, like the didgeridoo. He prides himself on his eclectic musical taste. There is no genre he doesn’t like, and he delights in mixing genres: he has a great acoustic version of Method Man’s “Bring the Pain.”When he feels bad, his solution is to do something – anything. Taking action of any kind makes him feel better.He says “What if I,,,” or “Is it possible that…” about ten times a day.He thinks winging it is stupid when there are known workable methods for a project. He happily reads instructions, watches video tutorials, and asks for advice.The projects for which he does all of this research are often bizarre. For example, he spent hours reading articles and interviewing people all over the country before he began his project of collecting waste vegetable oil from local restaurants, filtering it in the backyard, and using it as fuel for our diesel Mercedes.He lives by the Rule of Fs: Farts are F***ing Funny. Poop is also hilarious.But he mostly enjoys ironic, sarcastic, smart or irreverent humor. He loves 30 Rock, Chappelle’s Show & Archer.He pretty much never reads.But when he used to read books, he preferred sci-fi. Also, he majored in literature.He loooooooves kung fu movies.He considers himself an expert in the genre. Hello, it’s not mindless entertainment – it’s art. Kurosawa, people.He loves building and fixing things.As a younger man, he wrote a lot of poetry and song lyrics.He doesn’t want our kids to grow up feeling different or weird. He cares about family traditions.He deliberately cultivates an unconventional persona. He hates being categorized and loves defying people’s expectations. He gets off on shocking people.He isn’t particularly interested in scientific theory or philosophy or psychology. He's not a spiritual or mystical person.He’s _very_ into politics and loves arguing his beliefs, especially with people who disagree. He’s a passionate agnostic who sees organized religion as full of hypocrisy & corruption, and he preaches against it any chance he gets.He tries to sell his beliefs, ideas and methods to anyone who will listen.He’s not smooth or suave. He walks around with his foot in his mouth constantly.Misc.: He generally seems to me to be mostly interested in what he can touch and see. He lives very much in the physical world.He is consumed with curiosity about the world. And being different from everyone else is his raison d’etre.


----------



## Stickman (Sep 30, 2012)

It's hard to tell, I believe him to be an S. I also think some of the traits listed aren't S/N specific.


----------



## Velasquez (Jul 3, 2012)

Why do you think that he's not an ENTJ?


----------



## Raichu (Aug 24, 2012)

I would guess N.


----------



## Ellis Bell (Mar 16, 2012)

oh, goodness, you did this in an Excel spreadsheet, right? Anyways, a lot of what you've described is surface behavior; it doesn't explain thought processes or point to specific functions. 

He sure is full of contradictions, though--

Being different from everyone else is his raison d'être... yet he doesn't want your kids to be the same way?

Also, as a person who positively inhales books, I also have to wonder what led a former literature major (there has to be some reason why he chose to study that in the first place) to stop reading completely.


----------



## currentlybusy (Dec 15, 2012)

Velasquez said:


> Why do you think that he's not an ENTJ?


Yea he seems N to me, but he actually finishes stuff. So I'd guess ENTJ as well.


----------



## reas (Jan 7, 2013)

Thanks, everyone. 

I didn't want to bore you all with the abundant evidence of DH's E-ness, T-ness, and P-ness (ha ha), but since you're wondering about ENTJ: For every project my guy completes, there are many more that never get off the ground or are partially complete. He owns ten of everything because he loses everything. He's late to all appointments, he refuses to wear a watch, he's perfectly happy to change plans at the last minute, only about 10% of the things he promises to do actually happen, he loves temporary solutions (gah! - every time I hear him say "just for now" I want to tear my hair out!)... I hope I don't sound too bitter! I don't mean to hate on Ps either. Sorry if it sounds that way. I try not to dwell on DH's P-ness (ha ha) too much because if I do I start to feel my J blood boil. 

Also, I know he's not ENTJ because he's soooo not suited to leading or managing. In any bossing situation he gets confused and vacillates between weak and mean. The art of parental discipline, he's learned by following my lead - but his instincts aren't truly there, and he's much better at bringing the fun.


----------



## reas (Jan 7, 2013)

Yes, Excel. I can't tell if you're making fun of me. I heart Excel. 

I still don't know myself why DH majored in literature but is not a reader now. We met just after he graduated. (Which took 6 universities and 6 years, omg.) He owns tons of Asimov and Vonnegut and I think he's read it all... I suspect it's his ADHD. Probably he took enough meds in college to get through the assigned reading, but since then has nothing pushing him to finish novels and several strong somethings (work, kids, the ADHD) compelling him not to finish them. He loves great narrative in tv and film, and he likes me to read to him... He's a story person, for sure. Just can't read the books.


----------



## Velasquez (Jul 3, 2012)

In that case, ENTP.


----------



## reas (Jan 7, 2013)

Thank you! So, does it seem possible then for an NT to be such a sensual creature? That's what's been tripping me up. He's so NT in a lot of ways - curious, mastery-oriented, a big know-it-all - but then he's also so present in physical reality all the time. He's very much a doer. I don't know a lot of NTs IRL, so I don't know how common this is.


----------



## DiamondDays (Sep 4, 2012)

I'd say ENTP. He just seems like the kind of "rebel" an ENTP would be, even though i clearly see where you'd get ESTP from.


----------



## Poetic_Anarchy (Aug 13, 2012)

reas said:


> Thank you! So, does it seem possible then for an NT to be such a sensual creature? That's what's been tripping me up. He's so NT in a lot of ways - curious, mastery-oriented, a big know-it-all - but then he's also so present in physical reality all the time. He's very much a doer. I don't know a lot of NTs IRL, so I don't know how common this is.


He's probably just more balanced and mature. I actually finish projects I care about and I'm only 17. So by 37(?) he should be more well rounded. Also, he's extroverted. So the world is interesting to him. The "head-in-the-clouds" NT stereotype applies more to INTs (no offense to any INTs).


----------



## Ellis Bell (Mar 16, 2012)

reas said:


> Yes, Excel. I can't tell if you're making fun of me. I heart Excel.
> 
> I still don't know myself why DH majored in literature but is not a reader now. We met just after he graduated. (Which took 6 universities and 6 years, omg.) He owns tons of Asimov and Vonnegut and I think he's read it all... I suspect it's his ADHD. Probably he took enough meds in college to get through the assigned reading, but since then has nothing pushing him to finish novels and several strong somethings (workADHD) compelling him not to finish them. He loves great narrative in tv and film, and he likes me to read to him... He's a story person, for sure. Just can't read the books.


Sorry if it came off that way; I didn't mean it like that. That it was in Excel format was actually the first thing I noticed actually, before I read any of the lists.


----------



## reas (Jan 7, 2013)

'sok. I get teased a lot for my obsession with Excel. I like to think it's a quirkily endearing trait.


----------



## Stickman (Sep 30, 2012)

Raichu said:


> I would guess N.


She says N. That means that the person is an N from her(S) point of view, so he's more N then her.
I say S. That means that the person is an S from my(N) point of view, so he's less N then me.

Maybe he's in(or near) the middle.


----------



## reas (Jan 7, 2013)

Stickman said:


> She says N. That means that the person is an N from her(S) point of view, so he's more N then her.
> I say S. That means that the person is an S from my(N) point of view, so he's less N then me.
> 
> Maybe he's in(or near) the middle.


This is a good point. Ns will notice his S-ness, Ss will notice his N-ness. 

Huh. Does anyone see something they _recognize?_


----------



## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

i didn't see anything that made him an ENTP. I saw everything made him an S.
Does he wear plaid? 
Does he CARE what he wears? 
Does he ever wash his car? 
Does he care what ANYTHING looks like?
DOes he follow rules?


----------



## reas (Jan 7, 2013)

Hmm...

He doesn't own much plaid, but then again I do most of his shopping for him. He has certain things he knows he looks good in and he tends to mostly wear that stuff. But he also seems frequently unaware of holes and stains in his clothes. He's definitely not as particular and careful about grooming and hygiene as he could be, ha ha.

He washes the cars if he is meeting a client or wants to make a good impression on someone. Inside, his cars are disasters. But he's totally on top of car maintenance (fixing stuff and so forth). Cars are one of his passions.

He does care what stuff looks like, but the interest is variable and idiosyncratic. I would say he's not nearly as sensitive to the beauty /ugliness of an environment as I am. But when he has an opinion about how something should look, it's a strong opinion.

He hates rules and breaks them whenever he can.


----------



## reas (Jan 7, 2013)

Do we have an opinion about Robert Downey Jr.'s Sherlock Holmes? I would say that character resembles how my husband sees himself in the world.


----------



## DiamondDays (Sep 4, 2012)

reas said:


> Do we have an opinion about Robert Downey Jr.'s Sherlock Holmes? I would say that character resembles how my husband sees himself in the world.


All Robert Downey Junior characters seem to be ENTP


----------



## Poetic_Anarchy (Aug 13, 2012)

reas said:


> Do we have an opinion about Robert Downey Jr.'s Sherlock Holmes? I would say that character resembles how my husband sees himself in the world.


I'd go INTP for R. D. Jr.'s portrayal. He's sloppy, but precise in his observations and he sees the connections. He also has no idea what not to say in a social situation.


----------



## Stickman (Sep 30, 2012)

Poetic_Anarchy said:


> I'd go INTP for R. D. Jr.'s portrayal. He's sloppy, but precise in his observations and he sees the connections. He also has no idea what not to say in a social situation.


I disagree, it seems to me that he does know what isn't very appropriate to say in a social situation, but he chooses to ignore that knowledge.


----------



## Poetic_Anarchy (Aug 13, 2012)

Stickman said:


> I disagree, it seems to me that he does know what isn't very appropriate to say in a social situation, but he chooses to ignore that knowledge.


Good point, I phrased that wrong. But since I believe most INTPs DO know what to do, my opinion still stands. You guys know, you just couldn't possibly care less. ENTPs are similar, but it's a lot easier for us to use our social skills.


----------



## Stickman (Sep 30, 2012)

Poetic_Anarchy said:


> Good point, I phrased that wrong. But since I believe most INTPs DO know what to do, my opinion still stands. You guys know, you just couldn't possibly care less. ENTPs are similar, but it's a lot easier for us to use our social skills.


That is accurate. However, I still believe R.D.Jr. as S.H. is an ENTP. Just because ENTPs in general use social skills more often doesn't mean every ENTP does so(even if they can). Having social skills isn't just knowing what to say, but knowing how to say it and that is something what S.H. does really well.


----------



## Poetic_Anarchy (Aug 13, 2012)

Stickman said:


> That is accurate. However, I still believe R.D.Jr. as S.H. is an ENTP. Just because ENTPs in general use social skills more often doesn't mean every ENTP does so(even if they can). Having social skills isn't just knowing what to say, but knowing how to say it and that is something what S.H. does really well.


Hmm... That's a good point. Maybe an INTP with social skills, or an ENTP who's a "half-functioning sociopath" (as stated by S.H. in the British Sherlock TV series). He really lacks a lot of feeling. Not trying to stereotype you guys, but if we're heartless with tertiary Fe and you have it as inferior...


----------



## ENTPreneur (Dec 13, 2009)

Quite a typical, mature, rounded ENTP. It blurs a bit when older: we learn to enjoy the S part.... He also sounds happy. That is nice.


----------



## Stickman (Sep 30, 2012)

Poetic_Anarchy said:


> Hmm... That's a good point. Maybe an INTP with social skills, or an ENTP who's a "half-functioning sociopath" (as stated by S.H. in the British Sherlock TV series). He really lacks a lot of feeling. Not trying to stereotype you guys, but if we're heartless with tertiary Fe and you have it as inferior...


I think the label half functioning sociopath is also applicable to the S.H. in the movie.


----------



## Poetic_Anarchy (Aug 13, 2012)

Stickman said:


> I think the label half functioning sociopath is also applicable to the S.H. in the movie.


I think it half applies to half of all INTPs. But I can certainly see him as an ENTP.


----------



## Stickman (Sep 30, 2012)

Poetic_Anarchy said:


> I think it half applies to half of all INTPs. But I can certainly see him as an ENTP.


I hope you're joking(about the sociopath thing)roud:


----------



## Poetic_Anarchy (Aug 13, 2012)

Stickman said:


> I hope you're joking(about the sociopath thing)roud:


Well, okay, but you guys seem like it sometimes.


----------



## Stickman (Sep 30, 2012)

Poetic_Anarchy said:


> Well, okay, but you guys seem like it sometimes.


Sometimes.

Sometimes it's hard to see if someone is joking when it's in writing.


----------



## Poetic_Anarchy (Aug 13, 2012)

Stickman said:


> Sometimes.
> 
> Sometimes it's hard to see if someone is joking when it's in writing.


Please don't track me down and make me disappear. 
(Joking)

Seriously, if offended you, I am very sorry. It was totally unintentional.


----------



## reas (Jan 7, 2013)

As a person with an academic interest in psychopathy, I do believe that many ENTPs (and perhaps ESTPs, and some ISTPs and INTPs as well) exhibit traits that can overlap with or be mistaken for psychopathic traits. They can come across as callous, grandiose, glib, irresponsible, antisocial, etc., etc. 

But that absolutely doesn't mean they fundamentally lack a conscience, as psychopaths do. Huge diff. My DH offends people all the time, acts like a ginormous prick on kind of a regular basis, and has to appear in court for various misdemeanors and code violations probably four or five times a year. But he'll go to almost any length to make his children happy. (Or me happy, I begrudgingly admit.) 

A psychopath only pleases others for personal gain.


----------



## Poetic_Anarchy (Aug 13, 2012)

reas said:


> As a person with an academic interest in psychopathy, I do believe that many ENTPs (and perhaps ESTPs, and some ISTPs and INTPs as well) exhibit traits that can overlap with or be mistaken for psychopathic traits. They can come across as callous, grandiose, glib, irresponsible, antisocial, etc., etc.
> 
> But that absolutely doesn't mean they fundamentally lack a conscience, as psychopaths do. Huge diff. My DH offends people all the time, acts like a ginormous prick on kind of a regular basis, and has to appear in court for various misdemeanors and code violations probably four or five times a year. But he'll go to almost any length to make his children happy. (Or me happy, I begrudgingly admit.)
> 
> A psychopath only pleases others for personal gain.


I know. One of my closest friends regularly says I'm a sociopath, so I'm used to it. I forget that it can offend other people if you joke like that.

By the way, what does DH stand for?
Because my guesses are 'Dumb Husband' or 'Darling Husband'.


----------



## Stickman (Sep 30, 2012)

Poetic_Anarchy said:


> Please don't track me down and make me disappear.
> (Joking)
> 
> Seriously, if offended you, I am very sorry. It was totally unintentional.


You didn't offend me. I just wanted to know if you really thought that about INTPs, just curious.


----------



## Poetic_Anarchy (Aug 13, 2012)

Stickman said:


> You didn't offend me. I just wanted to know if you really thought that about INTPs, just curious.


No, but I do think many of you have a tendency to display a stark lack of emotion or caring. Like me! roud:
Given your inferior Fe, it is understandable, especially in younger INTPs.


----------



## reas (Jan 7, 2013)

Poetic_Anarchy said:


> By the way, what does DH stand for?
> \.


"Dear husband." I actually find it an incredibly dumb abbreviation and I annoy myself every time I type it. Feels so phony. (Says this NF.) But I use it nonetheless because it's the accepted convention on the interwebs, and I don't want to seem rude in my virtual conversations. (Says my Fe.)


----------



## Poetic_Anarchy (Aug 13, 2012)

reas said:


> "Dear husband." I actually find it an incredibly dumb abbreviation and I annoy myself every time I type it. Feels so phony. (Says this NF.) But I use it nonetheless because it's the accepted convention on the interwebs, and I don't want to seem rude in my virtual conversations. (Says my Fe.)


I was close(ish). I find IRL more annoying; I always think they typoed 'URL'.


----------



## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

you guys make sociopath out to be a bad word.

we have feelings you know.


----------



## princessJAY (May 25, 2011)

reas said:


> We've been together 13 years. For most of that time I've believed DH to be an ENTP. Recently, though, I'm wondering if he's an ESTP. I think he's either a _very_ sensual ENTP, or a _very_ eccentric ESTP.
> 
> ...


None of these clearly illustrate N or S. They are values & preferences, and do not indicate cognitive style.

The major difference between ENTP & ESTP is Extroverted Intuition versus Extroverted Sensing. Observe how he primarily receives information and you will have your conclusion.

IME, Ne is more agile at talking and wordplay than Se, who is more direct and to-the-point in their communication, even when joking around or shooting the breeze. ESTP tend to be more physical in general, hands-on, quick to immediately start doing /experimenting, whereas ENTP more likely to juggle multiple tangentially-connected ideas first. Se has more energetically-intense physical presence, while Ne is more laid back & fluid because it has difficulty being completely present to the Here and Now.

Ne is loopy, idiosyncratic, great for producing out-of-the-box ideas when brainstorming, unrestrained by realistic limitations, therefore mostly silly, occasionally brilliant. Pushing an idea to its ludicrous extreme IS my sense of humor. Most people find it random, pointless, or absurd, but other Ne-users will play along. The _extent _to which they play along will measure the strength of their Ne.


----------



## Dhavin (Jan 22, 2013)

reas said:


> So when I talk to DH about things I find interesting, it's often stuff like my psychoanalysis of an acquaintance's behavior, or something I think I just figured out about some social system, or my interpretation of an awesome poem I just discovered. And I think I tend to go on a bit, and probably use a lot of jargon, and I also think what I'm trying to communicate is usually pretty complicated.
> 
> And when I am telling him this stuff (usually while we're driving somewhere), a lot of times he's texting or interrupting me or looking out the window. And sometimes he's rolling his eyes.
> 
> ...


One of the greatest challenges an ENTP has is to communicate efficiently without accidentally trashing the other person's feelings. It's honestly not like we're doing this on purpose; I certainly don't think to myself - What an idiot, it's blatantly clear to me that x + y = z. I do it sometimes though, I am working on it and getting better, but I do it because I _assume _that everyone can put the pieces together as quickly and intuitively as I can. Generally when I state it, I'm honestly just making an observation but it's often executed poorly and comes across as condescending or judgmental.. Lately, instead of dissecting something that someone says and returning it as a neat filet on their lap, I try to ask (as non-judgmentally as possible) why and how they came to the conclusion. It's a lot more fun than hurting people's feelings.


----------



## Dhavin (Jan 22, 2013)

reas said:


> Hope I'm not cutting you off by cross-posting with you before you finish your thought. But this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are an INFJ. My perfect-everything-wife is also an INFJ.


----------



## reas (Jan 7, 2013)

Dhavin said:


> I'd love to be a lawyer or psychologist but going to school that long would be an enormous drag.


DH could have written this, except perhaps replace psychologist with engineer.


----------



## reas (Jan 7, 2013)

Dhavin said:


> ...dissecting something that someone says and returning it as a neat filet on their lap...


Love this metaphor - it beautifully expresses exactly what DH loooooooves to do.

Actually, I get a sadistic pleasure from doing this as well, but only when I'm ril mad, and I'm not proud of it. When I do it, I'm being mean - but it's how DH talks, like, every day.


----------



## Dhavin (Jan 22, 2013)

reas said:


> Love this metaphor - it beautifully expresses exactly what DH loooooooves to do.
> 
> Actually, I get a sadistic pleasure from doing this as well, but only when I'm ril mad, and I'm not proud of it. When I do it, I'm being mean - but it's how DH talks, like, every day.


When I do it, I think I'm being helpful to the person. I'm doing it to further their understanding because one of the biggest turn-ons for an ENTP is teaching someone something new or showing them a different facet of something they already know. So now, when I get that Oooooh! I can be HELPFUL tingle, I stop and mentally count to five and remember to soften what I say (if it's a conversation with someone that softening is warranted).


----------



## reas (Jan 7, 2013)

Based on the feedback I've gotten from all you helpful folks, I am leaning back toward ENTP for DH. I am so grateful to everyone who is taking the time to help me work this out.  Though this man drives me nuts, I also love him, and (as you can probably tell) I very much want to understand him better so I can be a better partner to him.



Dhavin said:


> one of the biggest turn-ons for an ENTP is teaching someone something new or showing them a different facet of something they already know...


Holy moly, so glad you wrote this. This explains why DH loves to lecture to me - and why he seems mad and disappointed when I react defensively. (Which I always do. Which is ironic, since I also love to lecture.) Oh, now I feel sad. I had no idea I could have been making him happy this whole time by letting him teach me stuff. 

Urg, this isn't going to be easy - like a lot of teachers, I'm a very cranky student. I much prefer teaching myself than having to listen to someone. Well, whatev. Starting today, I am going to try to feel and act interested when DH tries to teach me something.

In the spirit of making this ENTP happy, I am also starting a new habit of sending him emails during the day that I think he'll find funny. For the last several years I have mostly not been laughing at DH's sarcastic or mean or inappropriate humor, mainly because I have been afraid that encouraging it would set a bad example for the kids. But you ENTPs have made me recall that this side of DH is one of the reasons I fell in love with him, and I realize that he's not going to change. So I might as well laugh along with him. Just not in front of the kids.

Here's what I sent him today. I found it here in a thread of images for each type. 

View attachment 59794




He loved it. His response was "exactly how I feel a lot of the time when I am actually speaking to people.".


----------



## GoldenApple (Nov 7, 2012)

reas said:


> I very much want to understand him better so I can be a better partner to him.


You're pretty awesome. Just saying.



reas said:


> This explains why DH loves to lecture to me - and why he seems mad and disappointed when I react defensively. (Which I always do. Which is ironic, since I also love to lecture.) Oh, now I feel sad. I had no idea I could have been making him happy this whole time by letting him teach me stuff.
> 
> Urg, this isn't going to be easy - like a lot of teachers, I'm a very cranky student. I much prefer teaching myself than having to listen to someone. Well, whatev. Starting today, I am going to try to feel and act interested when DH tries to teach me something.


I never thought about what it would be like to have two teachers in a relationship. I LOVE to teach people, but not everyone likes to be taught. Fascinating!



reas said:


> For the last several years I have mostly not been laughing at DH's sarcastic or mean or inappropriate humor, mainly because I have been afraid that encouraging it would set a bad example for the kids. But you ENTPs have made me recall that this side of DH is one of the reasons I fell in love with him, and I realize that he's not going to change. So I might as well laugh along with him. Just not in front of the kids.


You haven't been laughing? :crying: That would suck the joy out of life!

My parents never cracked inappropriate jokes around me as a kid, but I developed a crude sense of humor anyway. It's hardwired and innate imho. Ironically, if I had been surrounded by my style of humor more as a kid, I wouldn't have went wild with it later. I'm just now getting off the high that is offensive/shocking humor!


----------



## Dhavin (Jan 22, 2013)

reas said:


> Here's what I sent him today. I found it here in a thread of images for each type.
> 
> View attachment 59794
> 
> ...


I clicky, but get no joy. Please re-post the attachment?


----------



## reas (Jan 7, 2013)

Dang it. Try this?


http://www.atheistmemebase.com/wp-c...lt-because-youre-a-fucking-idiot.-e-cards.jpg


----------



## themartyparade (Nov 7, 2010)

Poetic_Anarchy said:


> There are 8 functions, but yes, you'd mainly use the dominant and auxiliary in typing.


I meant Ne and Se as she seems confident that he's an ETP.


----------



## Poetic_Anarchy (Aug 13, 2012)

themartyparade said:


> I meant Ne and Se as she seems confident that he's an ETP.


Okay, thanks for clarifying.


----------



## Dhavin (Jan 22, 2013)

reas said:


> Dang it. Try this?


Yup, love it.


----------

