# I'm unsure of my gender... is such a thing possible?



## Miss Keks (Nov 7, 2010)

DJArendee said:


> What society dictates men and women should do is wrong, and shouldn't be taken into any consideration (if that's what's causing you any confusion).


This I consider true.



DJArendee said:


> If you're male, you could have very low testosterone levels.
> 
> If you're a woman, you could have very low estrogen levels.
> 
> Otherwise there could be some science that explains some sort of 50/50 chromasome thing as "1987" posted already.


This I consider very false.

That thing with not being sure of your gender or being "transgender" (gender between male and female) is not caused by hormones or Sex-Chromosomes. The last makes e.g. intersexed people. And the first, well, women have after menopause very low hormone levels, and also during the monthly bleeding. Are women at that times gender-confused? I don't think so or at least I haven't experienced such an effect.


But why I'm posting is, is that I'm also empathizing with you, I can understand how you are feeling. And to say so, nothing is wrong with you.

Gender, for me, has different layers. I.e. the how-you-see-your-body, the inner-instincts, the family-model, the kind-of-sexuality, the gender-role-you-like, the how-you-work-in-social, the how-you-peer-with-others and so on.
I think it's very possible all these layers have different amounts of typical-male/female or both or nothing.

There are psychological studies that claim there is a continuum of brain sex with two peeks at 75% female and 75% male, overlapping in between. Like two Gaussian curves that overlap between the two peaks. (picture in the attachment)

So it's completely normal if you're in between, like everyone has somehow both.

Try finding your point in this continuum in the different layers of gender and just be how you are. Whatever other say you have to be like, you are you and gender and stuff won't change for them.

And as long as you are not "gender-role" disphoric or body-sex-disphoric then everything is fine, isn't it?

hugs

edit: The picture shows the distribution of brain sex. It's taken from a psychology book (sorry it's in German, but only the graph is important)
a) the real brain sex distribution. You can see that almost nobody is 100% male or female and it's pretty overlapping in the middle
b) however is, how sex is viewed in society. (much more less overlapping)

ps: I've shortened this posting, personal reasons


----------



## Anhedonic Lake (May 9, 2010)

Yes, there is overwhelmingly strong evidence for brain sex. See the case of David Reimer also.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
Evidence shows male to female transgenders have female neurons in their brains. There is also evidence for gene which is linked to gender dysphoria.

Male-to-female transsexuals have female neuron num... [J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2000] - PubMed result

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7689007.stm

However a persons brain sex isn't always either simply male or female. Some identify as androgenes (gender neutral) others as bi gender and gender fluid. If you are happy with you physical body and gender identity, or lack of, don't feel the need to conform or label yourself to anything.


----------



## Anhedonic Lake (May 9, 2010)

brightteyes said:


> I think it is obvious to tell your own gender by your personal apperance, let alone by your body parts.


It is? Christmas must have come early then.


----------



## Miss Keks (Nov 7, 2010)

Tank you, Anhedonic Lake, I also wanted to bring up that thing with the BSTc region and transsexualism etc.

Maybe for everyone this document might be interesting:

Pacific Center for Sex and Society - Sex and Gender are Different

It describes the difference between gender-identity and sexual-identity and also gives examples of transsexuals, intersexuals, transgender etc.
(The author of this is Milton Diamond, the man who brought the case of David Reimer into publicity. He is a professor at the Pacific Center for Sex and Society in Hawaii)

I know it might be extreme talking about gender identity disorder, transsexualism and stuff if one just suggests to have a ambiguous gender-identity which I consider relatively "normal"...


----------



## Tkae (Oct 15, 2009)

Not to be insensitive by overly simplifying it, but...

Check your pants :mellow:

Seriously lol

It's entirely possible for you to be a masculine woman or a feminine man, and there's nothing wrong with that. The gender you identify most closely with mentally is whatever it is. In the same way, the gender you are biologically is whatever you are. Both of those aren't things you can change.

You can't change being black or white.
You can't change having wisdom teeth or not.
You can't change what's in your pants. 

There are black people who act "white", there are white people who act "black". If you're gay, if you're straight, if you're an effeminate man who has sex with women, if you're a masculine woman that has sex with men, that's what you are. Don't overthink it.

Step book, look at what you're given to work with in this life, and develop yourself using those pieces. Don't overcomplicate it and try to change what's not meant to be, because it's way too expensive and it's dangerous and it's really not all that effective in the long run. 

Be true to who you are. 

And if that means you're mentally neither man nor woman, but somewhere along the line between the two, then that's fine. You can't change what's in your pants though, and that's an easy answer so you don't have to write an essay explaining a simple question roud:

Believe me, it gets annoying after the hundredth time :mellow:


----------



## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

Tkae said:


> Not to be insensitive by overly simplifying it, but...
> 
> Check your pants :mellow:
> 
> Seriously lol


You're not only overly simplifying it, but you're actually completely incorrect. What is in your pants relates to your biological sex, not your gender.



> It's entirely possible for you to be a masculine woman or a feminine man, and there's nothing wrong with that. The gender you identify most closely with mentally is whatever it is. In the same way, the gender you are biologically is whatever you are. Both of those aren't things you can change.


Again, biological sex and gender are very different things.



> You can't change being black or white.
> You can't change having wisdom teeth or not.
> You can't change what's in your pants.


Firstly, have you never heard of sex reassignment surgery?

Secondly, for many transgender people it doesn't matter what is in their pants.



> There are black people who act "white", there are white people who act "black". If you're gay, if you're straight, if you're an effeminate man who has sex with women, if you're a masculine woman that has sex with men, that's what you are. Don't overthink it.


You're oversimplifying. People are far more individual than just being black, white, male or female.



> Step book, look at what you're given to work with in this life, and develop yourself using those pieces. Don't overcomplicate it and try to change what's not meant to be, because it's way too expensive and it's dangerous and it's really not all that effective in the long run.


Do you have any idea what transgender and transsexual people often go through? For some people, they can't just accept what they have and work with it.



> Be true to who you are.


That contradicts what you are saying in your post. How can they be true to who they are if they only work with what they have got?



> And if that means you're mentally neither man nor woman, but somewhere along the line between the two, then that's fine. You can't change what's in your pants though, and that's an easy answer so you don't have to write an essay explaining a simple question roud:


Again, have you never heard of sex reassignment surgery?



> Believe me, it gets annoying after the hundredth time :mellow:


Do you have any issues regarding your gender identity or sex?


----------



## Miss Keks (Nov 7, 2010)

Tkae said:


> Not to be insensitive by overly simplifying it, but...
> 
> Check your pants :mellow:
> 
> Seriously lol


It's not insensitive because it's overly simplified, but insensitive because you hit some peoples hearts with that like crushing what they believe and feel from inside into thousand pieces.



Tkae said:


> You can't change being black or white.
> You can't change having wisdom teeth or not.
> You can't change what's in your pants.


You can, look at Micheal Jackson.
You can take them away.
You can reassign that, it's neither expensive (€10T for the best one) nor dangerous nor it's worse than the original genitalia.

I don't wanna discuss that in detail, but you just don't see the real weight of it. If you are white but believe in your heart that you are black and you see yourself as black, but everytime you look in the mirror you are white, that makes you sad. You just cannot look at you, you cannot touch yourself, you are not able to do that, sometimes you even break out in tears. The people around you react to you like they would to a white, but you feel that as being wrong. (I'm not talking about discrimination) You need others to think you are black and reacting to you as if you were. You cannot even have a relationship because it's all just wrong to you. The whole world, you, others, even god seems so wrong to you. You cannot imagine living any further like this, you feel misunderstood and depressed. It's all a single misery.
But then you hear that there is a way to make you black! This grabs your interest and you just can't think of anything else. You even dream about that and your heart suddenly drops imagining living as black. So you work hard to get this treatment and then you got it and you just think: Oh my gosh, oh my gosh, ohmygosh ohmygosh and you feel relieved and your heart is pounding like that of a little girl unpacking a huge present, it's just overwhelming you.
Now the time has come you can look in the mirror and say, yes that is you, you look good, you are funny, you are sexy and you can interact with people and feel right. This is freaking you out, you cannot believe your deepest wish came true.
So you live and get happy and everything is fine. Life is hard, still, but you have the strength to get what you need and want. You made it, you can live a normal life!

That's the thing with sex reassignment surgery*. I hope you got that, it's about hating yourself and your body and it's about depression and not being able to live socially and last but not least suicide. It's not an easy topic, at least for the ones who relate to that.

* and the other stuff, like hormonal treatment, laser epilation, mastectomy etc.


----------



## Tkae (Oct 15, 2009)

Miss Keks said:


> You can, look at *Micheal Jackson*.


Yeah, because people thought it was _totally_ normal and realistic when he did it :dry:

Comedians were right there supporting him, weren't they?



> You can take them away.


Which belies the argument that you didn't have them to begin with



> You can reassign that, it's neither expensive (*€10T* for the best one) nor dangerous nor it's worse than the original genitalia.


Okay, I'm a poor college kid, so forgive me for thinking that enough money to pay for my entire four years isn't "expensive" :mellow:

My entire point is that it's _best_ to come to grips with the things that you can't change. Loving what you have instead of dreaming about what you don't is far healthier and leads to much less disappointment in life. Thinking that a sex reassignment surgery or a changing your skin color will solve all your problems and make things better is setting yourself up for disappointment, and it's a damn good thing the Black Rights movement and Gay Rights movement don't subscribe to your philosophy. 

Searching for the personal meaning behind why you have what you have, why you are what you are, mentally, physically, or otherwise is the only way to learn who you are as individual, and fixing these sort of things surgically is just yet another symptom of our 21st century silicon-breasted face-lifted liposucked world. 

Love who you are. Be who you are. You are what you are, so embrace it. 

_That's_ what I'm saying.

God forbid I not say the politically correct thing and enable an unhealthy escapism from reality by pushing them to spend $10k on something that will only give them a world of new problems :dry:


----------



## Miss Keks (Nov 7, 2010)

Tkae said:


> Yeah, because people thought it was _totally_ normal and realistic when he did it :dry:
> 
> Comedians were right there supporting him, weren't they?


I'm sorry I don't know that much about him or his motives, I just know that he did it.



Tkae said:


> Okay, I'm a poor college kid, so forgive me for thinking that enough money to pay for my entire four years isn't "expensive" :mellow:


It's as expensive as a car, and it is a benefit you have for the rest of your life. Imaging you can't pee normally, you can't have sex, arousal feels wrong and you cannot go swimming or anything. For your whole life. (You can, technically do that, but your heart will break into pieces and it's just very unhealthy for your psyche. It will always lead to depression and escapism and maybe also suicide. And that's the point you might cannot empathize but for the ones who have it it's most cruel.)

PS: In states like Germany you only pay some costs for the hospital stay (~€300), the rest (~€30k for a surgery in Germany) pays your health-insurance.




Tkae said:


> My entire point is that it's _best_ to come to grips with the things that you can't change. Loving what you have instead of dreaming about what you don't is far healthier and leads to much less disappointment in life. Thinking that a sex reassignment surgery or a changing your skin color will solve all your problems and make things better is setting yourself up for disappointment, and it's a damn good thing the Black Rights movement and Gay Rights movement don't subscribe to your philosophy.


It's right you go best when you accept what you've got and how you are. You cannot change that, it's true.
But for transsexuality, like homosexuality or intersexuality you are born with, you cannot change that fact. If you ignore it, it will haunt you for the rest of your life. It's not believing you can make a surgery and your life will be happy, it's about you make a surgery and you will be able to live normally.

And I very appreciate the Black/Gay Rights Movement, or the Trans Rights Movement (sadly nobody knows it).



Tkae said:


> Searching for the personal meaning behind why you have what you have, why you are what you are, mentally, physically, or otherwise is the only way to learn who you are as individual, and fixing these sort of things surgically is just yet another symptom of our 21st century silicon-breasted face-lifted liposucked world.


Again, transsexuality is not a lifestyle choice. You are born with that. And the surgery is there to enable you a normal life. I don't like the cosmetic-surgery-trend, too. But if you really suffer under some parts of your body, and it's not for a simple cosmetic reason, I think that then surgery can enable you a happier life. It's two different things.



Tkae said:


> Love who you are. Be who you are. You are what you are, so embrace it.
> 
> _That's_ what I'm saying.


And _that's_ what is my point, too.


----------



## Tkae (Oct 15, 2009)

Miss Keks said:


> It's as expensive as a car,


Another thing that I can't afford.



> and it is a benefit you have for the rest of your life.* Imaging you can't pee normally, you can't have sex, arousal feels wrong* and you cannot go swimming or anything. For your whole life. (You can, technically do that, but your heart will break into pieces and it's just very unhealthy for your psyche. It will always lead to depression and escapism and maybe also suicide. And that's the point you might cannot empathize but for the ones who have it it's most cruel.)


It won't _always_ lead to suicide if we help people learn to _accept_ it.

People have lived as intergenders for thousands of years without changing their bodies. They're happy, they're functional, and they don't think, "Gee, why wasn't I born the way I was supposed to have been?"



> It's right you go best when you accept what you've got and how you are. You cannot change that, it's true.
> 
> But for transsexuality, like homosexuality or intersexuality you are born with, you cannot change that fact. If you ignore it, it will haunt you for the rest of your life. It's not believing you can make a surgery and your life will be happy, it's about you make a surgery and you will be able to live normally.


You're born with what you're born with. Surgery to give you what you weren't born with or changing what you were born with isn't the answer to anything. That, again, is the unhealthy manifestation of 21st century cosmetic surgery idealism that drives all people to be physically some kind of concept that they "should be" or "should have been".

It's a good thing Helen Keller didn't think, "Gee, I'm blind, I'm deaf, but I can have surgery to make me a 'normal' person, because that's what I was meant to be when I was born."

Normal is arbitrary. None of us are normal.

You were born the way you were for a reason. Slicing and dicing your body isn't the answer.

I could sit around all day and think, "Gee, why wasn't a born a woman so it'd be more accepted for me to have sex with men?", "Gee, why couldn't I have been born into a more tolerant world?", "Gee, life sucks, why am I still here?"

It's not healthy, it's not productive, and it just drives you further down into depression. But if I say, "I am what I am, and I'll find my niche in this shithole of a world because I was born into it with unique traits that make me who I am just like everybody else who's ever been born has been," then you're far happier with yourself and with your life.

No surgery or medication required.

So why aren't we leading them down this road of self-acceptance and loving ourselves and are instead saying, "You're right, you were born a mutant and we need to fix you,"?

_Everybody_ lives with something wrong with them. There's _always_ some kind of surgery that can make us more "ideal". That's the mark of a human. And the entire point of life is to live it and grow as a person, flaws and all. Because by the end of it you realize that all the time you've spent trying to "fix" yourself is wasted, and you could have been enjoying life as what you are instead of what you "should be". 

And if you want to have gender reassignment surgery, more power to you. But it is _not_ any kind of solution, no more than facelifts or breast enhancements are solutions.


----------



## Miss Keks (Nov 7, 2010)

Somehow I get the feeling you miss my point completely. When talking about transsexuals it doesn't mean we're talking about a lifestyle-choice, nor about society-pressure or whatever. The psychic stable need to get your sex changed doesn't have anything to do with how you are perceived by others, it has nothing to do with beauty, nor anything else than the need to live without psychic pain.



Tkae said:


> People have lived as intergenders for thousands of years without changing their bodies. They're happy, they're functional, and they don't think, "Gee, why wasn't I born the way I was supposed to have been?"


Reassignments have always been there. I.e. over 2000 years ago surgeries have been practiced in Roman Empire or India, and I believe it is even older than that.

It is NOT a thing that is new. Transgenders/Transsexuals have always tried to flee their body condition, and pursuit to live as the gender they wish.



Tkae said:


> You were born the way you were for a reason. Slicing and dicing your body isn't the answer.


You were born for a reason? Now tell me what is it?



Tkae said:


> It's not healthy, it's not productive, and it just drives you further down into depression. But if I say, "I am what I am, and I'll find my niche in this shithole of a world because I was born into it with unique traits that make me who I am just like everybody else who's ever been born has been," then you're far happier with yourself and with your life.


It's true that you can only accept how you are. But I guess you miss the point that transsexuals are born with a different sexual identity compared to what their body tells them.

And if being as nature made you is just a major pain to you, how would you not get depressed from it? If you need glasses, if you have wrong teeth positions, if you suffer from PMDD or if you have GID, if you always fail to get pregnant because of some hormone insufficiency or you have osteoporosis, periodic depressions, schizophrenia or are born with muscular dystrophy ...

Is it better to accept how you are born and suffer or to get treatment and are able to live with less pain or even a healthy life?

I don't get your point, for me it is completely legitimate to change your body with medication or surgery if you suffer.



Tkae said:


> And if you want to have gender reassignment surgery, more power to you. But it is _not_ any kind of solution, no more than facelifts or breast enhancements are solutions.


Again, a sex reassignment surgery has nothing to do with cosmetic surgery. And stop talking about gender, it is about your body sex! Gender is what is between your ears, and sex what is between your legs. Sounds easy, mh?
It's about obtaining the feeling to feel home in your body and has nothing to do with how people should see you. A surgery won't change any gender or the way you live or are perceived, it's just for your personal happiness and psychic-pain reduction.

To conclude, I see that you don't really get the point why transsexual people need to do that. You should just accept that this pain they suffer from is real. Being between genders or sexes is fine, you should live the way you don't suffer from it. But for transsexuals they even suffer from it when they accept the body they are given (then they often do even more) so there is only one way to get to a state where they don't suffer: To alter their body.

And I didn't say a surgery can heal you, there is nothing in the world that just suddenly heals you and makes you happy for the rest of your life. And that should everyone know.


----------



## prplchknz (Nov 30, 2010)

go to typec and seek out Jennifer, she might be able to help you.


----------



## nevermore (Oct 1, 2010)

Labrandy said:


> I don't know, it's really confusing. Being an INTP, I've always been really sensitive to people, and kinda-over sensitive myself. I've never really thought of myself much as what you might define 'masculine', as a matter of fact the general idea if it tends to disdain me.(Mainly the concepts of competition, aggression, and the like )


Oh boy, can I relate to this one! I've always kind of resented cultural masculinity and found it emphasised not only the_ wrong_ things, but things that were sort of harmful to the individual. So I had to try to be something I'm not, and on top of that, something that I found boring, inane, and ultimately dangerous to my well being.

I think a lot of it might come from being INTP. We are perhaps the least "bodily" of all types, as Ti is the most introverted and because it is suppoted by our Ne, concerned with the physical world. Most stereotypical masculine interests are very sensory. So despite having very masculine brains in many ways because our logical proclivities (more men are T's), many of us still have difficulty relating to men at large.


----------



## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

prplchknz said:


> go to typec and seek out Jennifer, she might be able to help you.


If that's the same person as @Jennywocky, she's a member here.

(Hope you don't mind me connecting those profiles if you are, Jenny).


----------



## Anhedonic Lake (May 9, 2010)

Tkae said:


> Not to be insensitive by overly simplifying it, but...
> 
> Check your pants :mellow:
> 
> ...


Not wanting to sound insensitive by being frank but you obviously do not know anything about gender dysphoria. Did you even read the links? Do you believe you know more about this subject than a professional biologist? 
I guess you can't change some peoples minds with evidence, some people are just willfully ignorant.
Believe me it gets annoying after awhile .Oh, just realised you're gay. Transphobia,double standards and hypocrisy amongst the gay community, well that's nothing new...especially amongst the younger gay males these days.

Be aware there are people out there who consider homosexuality a mental illness, a depravity and recommend "reparitive therapy" to return them to their "natural sexual orientation". Essentially transsexuals are treated as poorly today as homosexuals were forty years ago. So you believe in gay rights and societal respect for gays but not for transgenders? That's essentially what you're saying. There is at least the same amount of evidence for gender dysphoria having a strong biological element as there is for homosexuality. See this is why I have nothing to do with the LGBT scene and why most of my non transgender friends are straight. They tend to be more open minded. Sad but true.



Tkae said:


> God forbid I not say the *politically correct thing* and enable an unhealthy escapism from reality by pushing them to spend $10k on something that will only give them a world of new problems :dry:


Oh the irony! I bet if someone referred to you as a "***", a "sexual deviant" "Pervert" or an "abomination" you'd be the first one to scream for political correctness on the forum.


----------



## Tad Cooper (Apr 10, 2010)

I have to say I can understand this very well. I always thought I was a boy when I was younger, then realised I was a girl, acted like a tomboy, then had the teen period of being confused and trying to be girly, now I'm just confused haha. It's a real pain. I didn't know what it was called until I was in psychology class and we studied gender dysphoria and I felt really weird thinking about the idea.
I personally wouldn't recommend surgery, it's dangerous etc etc, but maybe counselling will help? It can sort out your thoughts and you can get advice about things (only if its actually a problem though)


----------



## Anhedonic Lake (May 9, 2010)

tine said:


> I personally wouldn't recommend surgery, it's dangerous etc etc, but maybe counselling will help? It can sort out your thoughts and you can get advice about things (only if its actually a problem though)


There's no way the OP would be allowed to have SRS. Hell the OP wouldn't even be allowed to legally go on hormones going by what he/she said. You need to be diagnosed as TS (Gender identity dysphoria/disorder) in order to get hormones. After that you need to be studied carefully by psychiatrists for years, to rule out a differential diagnosis, before even being considered for SRS.

Going by what the OP said, I am pretty certain he/she is not a transsexual. I knew something was amiss since I was a child-I never had any doubts. My guess is the OP is an androgene or bi-gender-if you want to put a label on it.


----------



## Tad Cooper (Apr 10, 2010)

Anhedonic Lake said:


> There's no way the OP would be allowed to have SRS. Hell the OP wouldn't even be allowed to legally go on hormones going by what he/she said. You need to be diagnosed as TS (Gender identity dysphoria/disorder) in order to get hormones. After that you need to be studied carefully by psychiatrists for years, to rule out a differential diagnosis, before even being considered for SRS.
> 
> Going by what the OP said, I am pretty certain he/she is not a transsexual. I knew something was amiss since I was a child-I never had any doubts. My guess is the OP is an androgene or bi-gender-if you want to put a label on it.


That's true, there is alot of stuff before you can do it. It might just be something as simple as not fulfilling the image of a woman/man and so not feeling like they can relate to said gender.


----------



## Aiam (May 30, 2010)

Labrandy, I recently found this site, and I found it enormously encouraging. You're not alone. 

Genderfork


----------



## Miss Keks (Nov 7, 2010)

tine said:


> That's true, there is alot of stuff before you can do it. It might just be something as simple as not fulfilling the image of a woman/man and so not feeling like they can relate to said gender.


Well it's not that complicated getting hormones/SRS, you only need 1-2 experts recommendations. However you at least just shouldn't go on hormones etc. if you are not sure. Experts can't tell you who you really are, it's only you who can decide that. I know people who went the way back, because they overstepped a line and felt not well anymore.

As you said, gender is not the crucial point with transsexualism. The point is, if you can't accept your body's sex and out of that want to change it. Though there are people doing it out of gender but are happy with their new sex. And others do it because of their sex and then also might be happy with their new gender, or not or are genderqueer or whatever.


----------

