# Is it just me, or is society a pointless hellhole run by sjs?



## Tipo (Jan 12, 2017)

Maybe that's just where I live.

I love informal debating, and anytime I raise a point, my conversation partner's rebuttal is 'because those are the rules.' Is it inaccurate to expect more of them? I think not, but maybe this is just the folly of humankind. Everyone is domineering, self-righteous and pointlessly devoted to the capitalist machine. A cog doesn't deserve happiness to a machine, however. Peoples' logic is self-defeating if it is even present. Does anyone else find others exasperating and disappointing and boring? I'm looking for shared experiences and advice for how to deal with sjs, if you please. Sorry if I offend anyone. 

I can't wait to become a sheep herder.


----------



## OutsideLookingIn391 (Mar 10, 2017)

Well what do you want? The Bolshevik Red Terror? Try something new. Have faith in human beings.


----------



## Ald52OnMyTonguePleas (Mar 3, 2017)

Tipo said:


> Maybe that's just where I live.
> 
> I love informal debating, and anytime I raise a point, my conversation partner's rebuttal is 'because those are the rules.' *Is it inaccurate to expect more of them?* I think not, but maybe this is just the folly of humankind. Everyone is domineering, self-righteous and pointlessly devoted to the capitalist machine. A cog doesn't deserve happiness to a machine, however. Peoples' logic is self-defeating if it is even present. Does anyone else find others exasperating and disappointing and boring? I'm looking for shared experiences and advice for how to deal with sjs, if you please. Sorry if I offend anyone.
> 
> I can't wait to become a sheep herder.


Yes ... yes it is inaccurate to expect this from most people. Most people I want little, if nothing, to do with, but this makes life so much more bright and worth living when I stumble into intelligent, original, and free-minded people. SJs have their own thing going so I turn my back on it, say fuck it, and have a laugh. Most can be a drag, but not all--I have a few SJ friends that are atypical for the stereotype--so why dwell on it? Most people don't think because it requires work that they would rather put somewhere else. I have encountered real smart people that choose to lapse into idiocy because it is easier. Again a disheartening realization, but I laugh it off and carry on. 

Something I keep in my mind is that you can learn something from anyone. You just have to pan the nuggets from the shit.


----------



## Absentee (Dec 17, 2016)

I'm currently dealing with 2 SJs in my friend group at the moment as well. Holy shit they are annoying as hell most of the time. They can't see anything beyond what's been put directly in front of their face, and only want the things that they are told they should want lol. When I try to show them a different perspective I get replies like "I don't respect you because you don't value the important things like I do." Most closed-minded/judgmental people I've ever had the displeasure of talking to. The only way they would change their view as far as I can tell, is if you are in a position of higher authority than they are. Only then will they even give any original thought you have any chance whatsoever. If you find any other way of dealing with them then please inform me immediately.


----------



## Tipo (Jan 12, 2017)

OutsideLookingIn391 said:


> Try something new. Have faith in human beings.


I base my faith in human beings on my experiences with others, and compare them to my own motivations and what I good I know humanity could be capable of, and judge them morally based on that. I am often disappointed. I suppose this is my own fault. Lately I have been trying to accept people as they are, and in myself and others recognize the silliness characteristic of the human race, and try to laugh about it and know that I can make things better for others by just accepting it and trying to have a good time. I give my unconditional love to a few of those I find kind and thoughtful, flaws and all. However I suppose I will always carry that "we could be doing so much better" disappointment with me. I have love for humans, but never faith. I find no reason to believe we will truly change anytime soon.


----------



## Tipo (Jan 12, 2017)

@AbsenteeHaha yea I have a few sjs friends that are perfectly lovely, even if we occasionally clash. I just find it disheartening that the world is overrun with them; however, I recognize that society as we know it could not exist as it does without them. I am not entirely convinced that would be a bad thing. 

I mostly deal with sjs by arguing with them and, when that fails as it so often does, ignoring them. Not sure if either is helpful for myself or others.


----------



## lookslikeiwin (May 6, 2014)

Where I live at least half the population is socialist and loves implementing new and creative (!) rules and if you are capitalist you are automatically less enlightened than the almighty city council, who actually had to get banned from banning things, like ecigarettes. If you believe in anything "traditional" you are silly and uneducated and only believe what your parents told you, and evidently never think things through, because you did not reach the same conclusions as the all-powerful local college professors. If you complain about things enough though, in a loud voice, and your opinion is supported by CNN, you are definitely super duper cool and righteous in your cause because you are angry and use popular phrases. 

But there are a few rare people too, who actually listen, even if they disagree. And there are a number of unique places in a small area.

I don't think it's just SJs. A lot of other types can be idiots in charge. SJs just get a bad rep.


----------



## Simpson17866 (Dec 3, 2014)

Tipo said:


> Maybe that's just where I live.
> 
> I love informal debating, and anytime I raise a point, my conversation partner's rebuttal is 'because those are the rules.' Is it inaccurate to expect more of them? I think not, but maybe this is just the folly of humankind. Everyone is domineering, self-righteous and pointlessly devoted to the capitalist machine. A cog doesn't deserve happiness to a machine, however. Peoples' logic is self-defeating if it is even present. Does anyone else find others exasperating and disappointing and boring? I'm looking for shared experiences and advice for how to deal with sjs, if you please. Sorry if I offend anyone.
> 
> I can't wait to become a sheep herder.


 The most common Alignments are Lawful Neutral and Lawful Evil, and the most common MBTI personalities are the SJs.

I don't know how strong the correlation is between the two, but it's not 100%: there are Lawful Neutral/Evil NPs who only care about The Rules (albeit not normally the *same* rules), and there are Chaotic Good SJs who don't care.

Society is a pointless hellhole run by *Lawful Neutrals/Evil* who happen to be SJ, not SJs who happen to be Lawful Neutral :wink:


----------



## starscream430 (Jan 14, 2014)

Humanity is both terrible and amazing...in my opinion.


----------



## RoboticForest (Feb 12, 2017)

Heh. I guess that does suck pretty badly. I'm not sure you can ever change someone's mind if they're that close minded. They're more likely to change their mind when it becomes something important to them. Like the mother who stopped believing that vaccines cause autism when she wanted to find other options because her kids were getting sick. I guess all you could do is suggest them and hopefully when they change enough in their life, they'll change their minds too. You could push for them to not be so close minded, but often that results in them believing even more in their beliefs. Though, you'd probably get more of a chance of convincing them if you take time to listen to their thoughts and act like you're considering them before suggesting your ideas. Because without that, you'd seem more like the close minded ones to them. It probably won't work all the time, but it helps in convincing people. 

I wouldn't call it exactly a hellhole even when I do consider the flaws but now I think they have their place in society. Often people tend to judge other people by what they're good at. People like us would stress objectivity and skepticism when judging others because we value it in ourselves. Others would value reliability and discipline in judging others because they have it in themselves. But with this view, we limit ourselves to seeing what other strengths other people have that we often can lack.

SJs are called guardians because that's what they tend to be. They maintain ideas rather than forge new ones. While that may seem close minded, it also allows ideas to be implemented and maintained. Which intuitives in general can have trouble doing. All the little practical details we NTs tend to find annoying come more easily to them. And they have their roles maintaining order to follow in everyday life. Obedience in a bad light and to an extreme can be blind faith but used well, it can actually allow ideas to be implemented well in people's lives. I see this at times in a small scale in my own life. I can make more and more ideas and innovate new solutions to things but I can have trouble maintaining and following through with these ideas. So after seeing these "boring" skills like discipline and detail work as actually valuable, I actually was able to gain something from their perspective by working on these traits in my life. Maybe I can't change them, but maybe I can learn from them something I can change in myself. 

Okay. I'm not saying that their lack of skepticism does not suck. It sucks and they should change. But I do still have patience with these traits because after all, they're not necessarily bad people. Just people with different strengths and weaknesses. Even if people are in the end wrong in their perspectives, there tends to be some amount of truth and value in ideas sometimes. It gets easier to be patient when you figure out that things higher Ne users tend to find hard like repetitve but needed work and small details is the same with SJs having difficulty in creating their own novel ideas and open mindedness that comes with higher Ne. Or maybe with NT's general value on skepticism.


----------



## stathamspeacoat (Dec 10, 2016)

Tipo said:


> I love informal debating, and anytime I raise a point, my conversation partner's rebuttal is 'because those are the rules.' Is it inaccurate to expect more of them?


They love they rules, those SJs haha (my sister is an ESFJ)

The biggest thing that works for me (and discovering MBTI helped tremendously) is there are times you should only have a certain level of expectation for people. I think of the types as dog breeds. They're hardwired for certain attributes and are often times not even cognizant that others differ in mindset. I know I wasn't. I thought everyone else was overly emotional, lazy, inconsiderate instead of understanding that others are comfortable with spontaneity and keeping options open or get some kind of enjoyment/have a necessity to be emotionally expressive. Still boggles my mind but now I understand it's not by choice. 

I have intelligent friends (SPs especially) who don't like arguing/discussing because my thoughts are "too deep/abstract" (this is how they'll shut down/redirect our convo.) No fault of theirs, they are simply wired to respond to tangible/"real" issues. And honestly, it goes both ways. When my ISTP friend talks about machining issues, I listen but I have no reference point and tend to nod while I am mentally somewhere else. I know he sees my eyes glaze over or if I "mmm hmm" at the wrong time or if I hear the inflection in his voice that he asked me a question and I do not know what he asked but am aware he would only ask me something he felt I was capable of replying to. Busted! 

It is what it is. I save my good arguments/musings for my NT friends who are always game and generally lack/require explorative, abstract interaction as much as I do.


----------



## Simpson17866 (Dec 3, 2014)

stathamspeacoat said:


> They love they rules, those SJs haha (my sister is an ESFJ)


 Lawful NP: abstracting and disorganized about enforcing the rules

Chaotic SJ: practical and organized about breaking them :wink:

I've written 31 fictional characters according to their combined MyersBriggs type and D&D alignment  would you like to see the chart I made?


----------



## stathamspeacoat (Dec 10, 2016)

Simpson17866 said:


> Lawful NP: abstracting and disorganized about enforcing the rules
> 
> Chaotic SJ: practical and organized about breaking them :wink:
> 
> I've written 31 fictional characters according to their combined MyersBriggs type and D&D alignment  would you like to see the chart I made?


I actually would. 

I hope you're not toying with me


----------



## Simpson17866 (Dec 3, 2014)

stathamspeacoat said:


> I actually would.
> 
> I hope you're not toying with me


 In the past 4 years, I have written a 63k word Doctor Who fanfiction, a 5.5k word Lovecraftian horror story, a 25k word YA horror novella, and I am about 41k words into an Urban Fantasy novel about a gang of villain protagonists who discover the existence of the supernatural when a vampire's reign of terror claims them as collateral damage.










Any questions


----------



## stathamspeacoat (Dec 10, 2016)

Simpson17866 said:


> Any questions


No questions - only comment: that's awesome


----------



## Tamehagane (Sep 2, 2014)

I think the problem is actually...

Extroverts


----------



## Simpson17866 (Dec 3, 2014)

Tamehagane said:


>


 I do generally portray the non-human species in my SciFi/Fantasy as being better on average than humanity :wink:

I don't remember exactly the numbers I came up with for my Doctor Who fanfiction, but the baselines in the Urban Fantasy novels I've started are:


* *




*Dragons – 75% Chaotic, 65% Good*

Chaotic Neutral first
Chaotic Good / True Neutral tied for strong seconds

*Orcs – 65% Lawful, 55% Good*

True Neutral first
Lawful Neutral a strong second
Neutral Good third

*Half-Human Half-Orcs – 75% Lawful, 55% Evil*

Lawful Neutral first
True Neutral as a strong second
Lawful Evil third

*Psoglavs – 55% Chaotic Evil*

near exclusively True Neutral
Neutral Evil / Chaotic Neutral tied for weak seconds

*Humans – 85% Lawful, 65% Evil*

Lawful Neutral first
Lawful Evil as a strong second
True Neutral third

*Vampires – 65% Chaotic, 90% Evil*

Neutral Evil first
Chaotic Evil as a strong second
True Neutral as a very weak third

... Which is actually kind of funny because my most strongly aligned species *and* my most neutral species are both technically in the Chaotic Evil corner.


----------



## deviants (Dec 16, 2016)

Simpson17866 said:


> The most common Alignments are Lawful Neutral and Lawful Evil, and the most common MBTI personalities are the SJs.
> 
> I don't know how strong the correlation is between the two, but it's not 100%: there are Lawful Neutral/Evil NPs who only care about The Rules (albeit not normally the *same* rules), and there are Chaotic Good SJs who don't care.
> 
> Society is a pointless hellhole run by *Lawful Neutrals/Evil* who happen to be SJ, not SJs who happen to be Lawful Neutral :wink:


Now imagine if it was run by all the Chaotic Neutral/Good xxFP and xxTPs?


----------



## Simpson17866 (Dec 3, 2014)

deviants said:


> Now imagine if it was run by all the Chaotic Neutral/Good xxFP and xxTPs?


 What about the Lawful Good xSxPs and the Chaotic Good xxTJs :wink:


----------



## sriracha (Sep 19, 2010)

SJs get shit done. 

Maybe if Ns put more of their ideas and dreams into action, then society would be run by Ns.


----------



## Tipo (Jan 12, 2017)

sriracha said:


> SJs get shit done.
> 
> Maybe if Ns put more of their ideas and dreams into action, then society would be run by Ns.


This is the problem isn't it.
Maybe if we did we'd just become sjs


----------



## Ald52OnMyTonguePleas (Mar 3, 2017)

Tipo said:


> This is the problem isn't it.
> Maybe if we did we'd just become sjs


No no no ... her comment has merit, she should just get back to work, implement Ns ideas, and stop griping. Hahaha.


----------



## Tipo (Jan 12, 2017)

Ald52OnMyTonguePleas said:


> No no no ... her comment has merit, she should just get back to work, implement Ns ideas, and stop griping. Hahaha.


If i was an sj I'd make a vent post like this one but about flaky ns and how pretentious they are, and how they pan all the work onto us, lol.


----------



## sriracha (Sep 19, 2010)

According to this poll, people think that INFP is the type most likely to be communist. If this truly reflects how the world is, then Russia, China, and North Korea must have their societies run by INFPs. So, no. Not all pointless hellhole societies are run by SJs. :tongue:


----------



## atamagasuita (May 15, 2016)

Nopes we need them as pawns


----------



## Ald52OnMyTonguePleas (Mar 3, 2017)

sriracha said:


> According to this poll, people think that INFP is the type most likely to be communist. If this truly reflects how the world is, then Russia, China, and North Korea must have their societies run by INFPs. So, no. Not all pointless hellhole societies are run by SJs. :tongue:


If that poll had any statistical merit, i.e. was worth a shit, you might have a point, but alas. "I reads it on the interwebs so it must be truths." Now please kindly get back to work.


----------



## sriracha (Sep 19, 2010)

Ald52OnMyTonguePleas said:


> Now please kindly get back to work.


I am doing my work. My work involves annoying Ns.


----------



## Ald52OnMyTonguePleas (Mar 3, 2017)

sriracha said:


> I am doing my work. My work involves annoying Ns.


To you I say,


----------



## reptilian (Aug 5, 2014)

I don't want to to post a wall of text so I'll be quick, make what you will of it.

SJ Norm abiding
ISP Norm adjusting
ESP Norm exploiting
NFJ Norm rebelling
ENP Norm ignoring
INP Norm fearing
NT Norm confusing


----------



## Navvy Jay (Mar 21, 2017)

probably


----------



## how beautiful (Jul 12, 2016)

Of course it's a hellhole because rationalists haven't figured out how to make things work better. But it's actually not your fault. It's the idealists fault who haven't defined the perfect values for you rationals to work with and construct the society on. 

SJs get shit done. The problem with the world isn't that shit isn't done. The problem is what shit is done and why.

So Idealists have to first enslave rationalists. Then rationalists put SJs to do their work. SPs are free to do whatever they want, because they are free birds.


----------



## stathamspeacoat (Dec 10, 2016)

And the civil war rages on


----------



## TwoStepsAhead (Feb 21, 2017)

*Society is bad*

don't do Society kids... uuumkey


----------



## OdinsVardogr (Mar 21, 2015)

Pretty much. In our current state of affairs there is only so much one can divulge to inferior N's without getting a raised eyebrow, and at worst exiled for thinking outside the box. It's surprising at the rate so many young SJ/SP Snapchat Yeezus wearing hipsters are walking their minds into a digital slumber where critical thinking becomes a myth, and trend setting becomes the new life aspiration. I wish them sweet dreams.


----------

