# Redux: IxTJ, IxFP, or XXXX?



## krisp (Jul 17, 2011)

Anarchy said:


> I also noticed that my room literally falls apart when I'm stressed.The more stress I got the more P I become, the more introverted I am, more of an S and more of a T.


Yeah, me too - actually my whole house - and I'm responsible for the garden - dead dead dead garden of mine. More importantly, my SO understands this and is very forgiving.

Just wondering, if you don't mind me asking, how do you feel if someone violates one of your core principals, would you stand up for some deeply held belief? Do you think you would have a threshold where a righteous anger could outweigh the anxious shyness and you eventually spoke out with a sort of rage? Or is that just me?



Anarchy said:


> The INFP descriptions need revising, but I guess they ares so vague because INFPs have different values and different ways of seeing the world. Fi makes us very versatile, but we function in the same way.


I'm like 9/10 sure I'm INFP, someone suggested ISFP for me maybe, anyway, but I wonder if some types see so many different meanings in the one statement. Whereas others might not find the statements vague.


----------



## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

krisp said:


> Yeah, me too - actually my whole house - and I'm responsible for the garden - dead dead dead garden of mine. More importantly, my SO understands this and is very forgiving.
> 
> Just wondering, if you don't mind me asking, how do you feel if someone violates one of your core principals, would you stand up for some deeply held belief? Do you think you would have a threshold where a righteous anger could outweigh the anxious shyness and you eventually spoke out with a sort of rage? Or is that just me?
> 
> ...


Hell yes! Violating my core values will immediately get me to speak out, be assertive, total change of character. If the person doesn't back off I'll gradually show my righteous fury ^^! I'll get louder and louder and argumentative, the "Step over this line and I'll have your head!" mentality. It happened a few times on the forums as well. It kinda looks like me being angry and putting people in their place.


----------



## krisp (Jul 17, 2011)

@Anarchy 

Alice! Put the butcher knife down, and step away...


----------



## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

lirulin said:


> page ten maybe?


I'm not done reading yet--only halfway through--but I'm relating a lot to what the INTJs said, especially your and Antiant's posts. The only caveat is I think I'm _slightly_ more in touch with my feelings, but not by much. I fall into the traps other types put out there like so many INTJs have.

[INTJ says the truth innocently]
[Other person gets insulted]
[INTJ is left behind in confusion]

...Also, it makes me twitch whenever Flora says INPF... Which is _every time_...



Anarchy said:


> When I'm stressed I very much withdraw, procrastinate like there is no tomorrow, my attention span will go all over the place. I lose my ability to jump from idea to idea and feel like I need to be spoon fed bit by bit, I won't be able to concentrate at all and eventually I'll just become a sloth monster wallowing in pain. Will go numb and cold, logical, lethargic.


*INTJs *are used to living in their minds, mostly disregarding their physical and emotional needs. Therefore, love and romantic relationships can take them by surprise and the intensity of their own emotions usually represent the main factor that throws them in distress. They may feel out of control, restless and tormented, and thus respond to these feelings by dismissing their emotions and abstracting them into theoretical principles that don’t have much to do with objective reality. Idealizing their own complex concepts and ideas, they fail to recognize the importance of relationships with their peers, thus managing to isolate themselves not only from the outer world, but also from their emotional and physical self. They become misunderstood loners, cryptic and enigmatic to the rest of the world.
INTJs need to try and organize their esoteric perceptions and highly intuitive mental constructs, by applying some form of general logic to them and render them comprehensible to the world. They need to become more grounded into reality and start to appreciate and give the proper importance to the material aspects as well.

*ENFPs* in distress tend to feel overloaded and overwhelmed by too much to do. They feel they're trying to help others and make their lives better but their efforts are unappreciated and there are always more expectations and demands. In such situations, ENFPs are likely to start shirking their responsibilities, forgetting their appointments or being late for the deadlines. They perceive other people's discontentment with their inconstancy as a lack of consideration and respect for the ENFP's own rights and priorities. They want to be free to respond to possibilities as they present and change their minds whenever they want. Any requests or previous commitments that don't support their present agenda are viewed as unreasonable and limiting and will be dismissed.
ENFPs need to find out what it is that fulfills them on the long term instead of what seems attractive in the moment. By focusing on their true ideals and values and working to achieve them, they can build a consistent lifestyle that genuinely sustains their views and not merely a temporary refuge from feeling trapped by life.

*INFPs *usually dislike conflict and are prone to acting in a passive-aggressive way when they experience frustration or dissatisfaction. They are deeply dedicated to being their 'true selves', to the extent that they will avoid any people or situations that do not fit in with their inner value system, tending to become rather intolerant and hard to please. As stress increases, they may become extremely whimsical and stubborn, insisting on acting as they feel but ignoring the logical consequences and implications of their actions. Furthermore, they're inclined to use their self-experience as a standard for all the relationships and situations in their lives, adhering only to what reinforces their self-image and rejecting everything else.
INFPs can help themselves by understanding that they don't need to resist or fight reality in order to fulfill their unique vision, but instead it's better to accept reality as it is and seize its opportunities to build the life that they dream of. They need to learn to see all the possibilities without trying to filter them as right or wrong - perceiving reality as it is instead of trying to change it or ignore it.

[Source]


----------



## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Paradigm said:


> I'm not done reading yet--only halfway through--but I'm relating a lot to what the INTJs said, especially your posts. The only caveat is I think I'm _slightly_ more in touch with my feelings, but not by much. I fall into the traps other types put out there like so many INTJs have.
> 
> [INTJ says the truth innocently]
> [Other person gets insulted]
> ...


It made me twitch too...

I have to say, after getting off my meds, I am rather more in touch with my feelings now...Fi is pretty good for that, after all. I certainly don't think it is impossible to be so as an INTJ, and being off morphine helps... :tongue: And a few things changed after leaving home and actually being in a real relationship. Some of my older posts seem a bit too...cut off for me now. I felt a bit awkard giving the link because of that, but there was a lot of good discussion, so... It's not that they are _wrong_, it's just that sympathy and connection are easier when you actually have an opportunity where you want to express them - when you are surrounded mainly by people who don't matter, but think they should, as I was then, there isn't a lot of social fluffy empathy thingy stuff and you get constantly told you're incapable when, in fact, you don't try to express it. So the older posts reflect a different context that I have moved past now, mostly.

It might be that your enneagram is part of feeling less 'standard' INTJ? As far as I can tell, nothing you have said would rule you out from INTJ, despite your obviously having a lot of Fi. I guess one of the main differences I notice is that I have no Si - http, for instance, can recreate entire sensory experiences as memories and her memories have emotional resonance - I can't even picture my own face in any detail without a mirror and past memories barely make me feel anything - though they can make present experiences feel worse. I don't know if that helps at all.


----------



## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

lirulin said:


> I have to say, after getting off my meds, I am rather more in touch with my feelings now...Fi is pretty good for that, after all. I certainly don't think it is impossible to be so as an INTJ, and being off morphine helps... :tongue: And a few things changed after leaving home and actually being in a real relationship. Some of my older posts seem a bit too...cut off for me now. I felt a bit awkard giving the link because of that, but there was a lot of good discussion, so... It's not that they are _wrong_, it's just that sympathy and connection are easier when you actually have an opportunity where you want to express them - when you are surrounded mainly by people who don't matter, but think they should, as I was then, there isn't a lot of social fluffy empathy thingy stuff and you get constantly told you're incapable when, in fact, you don't try to express it. So the older posts reflect a different context that I have moved past now, mostly.


Nah, I'm actually glad you posted it, even if it's not entirely accurate today. We all change, so it's not like it's you were lying. You were posting the truth as you perceived it at the time. Besides, I can definitely relate to medications affecting moods; I lost my prescription of anti-depressants and have gone from crying in a corner to wanting to punch a little old lady on the sidewalk and back again. :wink:



> It might be that your enneagram is part of feeling less 'standard' INTJ? As far as I can tell, nothing you have said would rule you out from INTJ, despite your obviously having a lot of Fi. I guess one of the main differences I notice is that I have no Si - http, for instance, can recreate entire sensory experiences as memories and her memories have emotional resonance - I can't even picture my own face in any detail without a mirror and past memories barely make me feel anything - though they can make present experiences feel worse. I don't know if that helps at all.


You're probably right about the Enneagram. I've tried on the 6w5 hat but it feels too tight, ill-fitting. (Still considering it, but...) And I've never seen anyone else identify as an INTJ 6w7. 

Your description of not-having-Si sounds like me. I have a iconic memory, but it doesn't function like Si does (I think). I'm not aware of the past like they are; just because something happened, that's no reason to think it will happen again unless there are other clues. I can get nostalgic, and I definitely fall into the loop of "stupid, it happened again, you idiot," but it's... not the same. 

Funny you mention picturing your face; I can't do that either (in fact, when I try, it's more like the way I _feel_ I look instead of how I do in reality). I feel kinda guilty that I have a hard time remembering those kinds of things, like, "Shouldn't I be able to recall my family's faces in detail?"


----------



## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Paradigm said:


> Nah, I'm actually glad you posted it, even if it's not entirely accurate today. We all change, so it's not like it's you were lying. You were posting the truth as you perceived it at the time. Besides, I can definitely relate to medications affecting moods; I lost my prescription of anti-depressants and have gone from crying in a corner to wanting to punch a little old lady on the sidewalk and back again. :wink:


I was mostly just completely spaced. And I am used to being spaced, so it didn't seem that bad, but not _that_ spaced...



Paradigm said:


> You're probably right about the Enneagram. I've tried on the 6w5 hat but it feels too tight, ill-fitting. (Still considering it, but...) And I've never seen anyone else identify as an INTJ 6w7.
> 
> Your description of not-having-Si sounds like me. I have a iconic memory, but it doesn't function like Si does (I think). I'm not aware of the past like they are; just because something happened, that's no reason to think it will happen again unless there are other clues. I can get nostalgic, and I definitely fall into the loop of "stupid, it happened again, you idiot," but it's... not the same.
> 
> Funny you mention picturing your face; I can't do that either (in fact, when I try, it's more like the way I _feel_ I look instead of how I do in reality). I feel kinda guilty that I have a hard time remembering those kinds of things, like, "Shouldn't I be able to recall my family's faces in detail?"


I know we had a poll a while back, and there was at least one INTJ in each enneagram...I think Nonconsensus is a 6, though, so you could bug/stalk him - he may be a n00b but he seems to know what he is talking about. I cannot remember who else was in the poll who said six...I know bethdeth is 9 and I think Orion? is 2 and they are odd enneagram INTJs also.

It does sound very possible that you might be INTJ. From what I have heard, Si does seem to be a significant part of things for INFPs and the past/future focus can be a source of tension between our types.


----------



## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

lirulin said:


> I was mostly just completely spaced. And I am used to being spaced, so it didn't seem that bad, but not _that_ spaced...


Spaciness is entrenched into my personality, too... Everyone teases me about it.



> I know we had a poll a while back, and there was at least one INTJ in each enneagram...I think Nonconsensus is a 6, though, so you could bug/stalk him - he may be a n00b but he seems to know what he is talking about. I cannot remember who else was in the poll who said six...I know bethdeth is 9 and I think Orion? is 2 and they are odd enneagram INTJs also.


The only thing that annoys me is that while there are a good amount of INTJs who are 5s, 50% is _too much_. It's like IxFPs identifying as 4s and it annoys me. I'm more inclined to believe the ones who say they're 8s--though, saying that... 
(Not really looking for a debate, though.)

In other words, I'm not sure I can believe the poll results, but I'll follow it up and check out who says they're a 6. But I'm going to guess the vast majority of those are 6w5.

Btw, do you consider Bethdeth to be an "unusual" INTJ? And/or Nonconsensus?



> It does sound very possible that you might be INTJ. From what I have heard, Si does seem to be a significant part of things for INFPs and the past/future focus can be a source of tension between our types.


Yeah, I'm actually feeling more comfortable in saying I'm an INTJ. It fits so much better than INFP or anything else. I can act like I'm in an Fi-Si loop, but I think it's for different reasons the more I think about it. Can't verbalize what those reasons are, yet; haven't gotten that far.


----------



## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Paradigm said:


> The only thing that annoys me is that while there are a good amount of INTJs who are 5s, 50% is _too much_. It's like IxFPs identifying as 4s and it annoys me. I'm more inclined to believe the ones who say they're 8s--though, saying that...
> (Not really looking for a debate, though.)


There are probably a few mistypes, but this is an environment fives would seek out, I think, too, so that might skew a few things.



Paradigm said:


> In other words, I'm not sure I can believe the poll results, but I'll follow it up and check out who says they're a 6. But I'm going to guess the vast majority of those are 6w5.
> 
> Btw, do you consider Bethdeth to be an "unusual" INTJ? And/or Nonconsensus?


Probably a lot of 6w5, yeah.

Unusual...unstereotypical, perhaps. I mean, someone like Sanskrit is almost textbook INTJ, and I didn't take him seriously at first, it seemed too much so. But it does seem to work for him. Calliope in some ways too seems more typical of what outsiders see. A lot of the 8s and to a lesser extent, ones, come out that way. 

It's hard to say unusual, though, since I am so used to INTJ being more than some 'cold facade' thing. Those few seem like, sometimes, they might come out as less 'INTJ' to other people; but since I tend to not see the normal assumptions people have of INTJs, knowing how bullshit they are, it's hard for me to guess what others would see so I can't say for certain.

I guess I would consider most of the INTJs here 'unusual' compared to the standard assumptions about our type, but then I both think those assumptions are stupid and tend not to notice the markers that make people assume coldness. So it's really hard to say.



Paradigm said:


> Yeah, I'm actually feeling more comfortable in saying I'm an INTJ. It fits so much better than INFP or anything else. I can act like I'm in an Fi-Si loop, but I think it's for different reasons the more I think about it. Can't verbalize what those reasons are, yet; haven't gotten that far.


That damn Ni and its inexplicability. :tongue:
Well, welcome. :happy:


----------



## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

> That damn Ni and its inexplicability. :tongue:
> Well, welcome. :happy:


Whoops! Yes, thank you :laughing: You have been of invaluable help. When I first got into the system, I never thought I would've related to INTJs this much, let alone be one of them... 

Now I have an excuse to say, "I don't have the idea fully formed yet; it might come to me in a day or two," and be taken seriously. Huzzah!


----------



## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Paradigm said:


> Whoops! Yes, thank you :laughing: You have been of invaluable help. When I first got into the system, I never thought I would've related to INTJs this much, let alone be one of them...
> 
> Now I have an excuse to say, "I don't have the idea fully formed yet; it might come to me in a day or two," and be taken seriously. Huzzah!


Milk it!!!!! I love that excuse.


----------



## CarenRose (Aug 18, 2010)

Paradigm said:


> Funny you mention picturing your face; I can't do that either (in fact, when I try, it's more like the way I _feel_ I look instead of how I do in reality). I feel kinda guilty that I have a hard time remembering those kinds of things, like, "Shouldn't I be able to recall my family's faces in detail?"


Ok, I know it's been almost a month since you posted this ... whatever.

I really know hardly anything about the enneagram. But I'm pretty sure I'm a 6. No idea about the wing thing. But just wanted to throw that out, whether it really is informative or not.

And re: the quoted part ... I cannot recall faces either, and it seems the harder I try, the more impossible it is. Especially when I recall *everything* else in images, to the point of near-photographic memory, this strikes me as incredibly weird.

That's all.


----------



## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

CarenRose said:


> I really know hardly anything about the enneagram. But I'm pretty sure I'm a 6. No idea about the wing thing. But just wanted to throw that out, whether it really is informative or not.
> 
> And re: the quoted part ... I cannot recall faces either, and it seems the harder I try, the more impossible it is. Especially when I recall *everything* else in images, to the point of near-photographic memory, this strikes me as incredibly weird.


Thanks :happy:

About the Enneagram:
It'd be cool if there was another 6w7 INTJ, but most of them seem 6w5. Regardless, 6 INTJs are awesome!

Faces:
There's something called prosopagnosia. I don't have that, not saying you do either. But yeah, it's definitely a weird thing to not be able to picture with a photographic memory.

Ni thing, I wonder?


----------



## CarenRose (Aug 18, 2010)

I think I'd be 6w5, reading timeless' articles recently posted. (Sorry  )



Paradigm said:


> Thanks :happy:
> 
> About the Enneagram:
> It'd be cool if there was another 6w7 INTJ, but most of them seem 6w5. Regardless, 6 INTJs are awesome!
> ...


I'm familiar with prosopagnosia. (I really love neurology ...) Someone with prosopagnosia would be unable to tell people apart by seeing their face only. They rely on other features such as build or clothing or voice, but may include features that reside on the face (glasses, a prominent mole or other such feature.)
However there is something known as prosopamnesia which is the inability to *remember* faces. It's not, however, just a generic difficulty re-picturing faces that I'm sure many people have at least from time to time, but rather the deficit does lie in the initial "seeing" of the face so that it is not properly encoded into long term memory. So it is not that you can originally correctly see a face and later forget it, but it is also not the same as prosopagnosia where the brain cannot recognize "face" as "face."

This is a test. (Well, not quite. It's a page that links to tests.

Yes, I have considered this for myself. I have memories from before I was 3 years old, visual memories, and while they are not 100% accurate, they're still intact. Yet encountering a memory where there is someone's face (even in a dream) it almost feels as if there is a hole, not in that I "see" a hole in the memory, but as if when I'm trying to focus on the face (in the memory) it's as if my gaze keeps moving, I cannot focus on a face, nor any specific feature, without inordinate amount of concentration, and then it's fleeting, nearly blurry ... as if it's there in my memory but not truly there, I suppose, and there is never a similar experience with things other than a face, 

Anyways ...

But on that face test, I didn't know of half the celebrities ... but of the ones I did know or were familiar enough that I assumed I would be able to identify by face, I incorrectly identified over half.
Just re-took it. 

* *




Cher ... correct
Brad Pitt ... "didn't know"
Clinton ... correct
Tom Cruise ... "didn't know"
Arnold Swartzwhatshisname ... correct
Jerry Seinfeld ... familiar but couldn't name
Keanu Reeves ... tbh, I don't know if I could identify him if I saw him in something ... but I couldn't identify him here
Ghandi ... correctly identified because of the round glasses
Condoleezza Rice ... correct
Elvis ... "didn't know" but suspected it might have been him due to the chin 
Jennifer Anniston ... "didn't know" 
Tom Hanks ... this was the one face I was *sure* I could identify, and I saw it and I'm like ... "uhhhhh, who's that?"
Bush ... correct
Kennedy ... correct
Robin Williams ... this was the other face I was *sure* I could identify, this time I was correct
Jim Carrey ... misidentified as Walter Koenig ... it's the smile
Oprah ... correct
Patrick Stewart ... correct ... he has a very specific smile ... they really should have neutral non-smiling pics for all these



Those with particularly "stand-out" features such as wrinkle patterns or glasses or even a specific smile were much easier to identify. My relative familiarity with the person was actually *not* a contributing factor. In fact, I'm not particularly familiar with Cher, the first time taking this I didn't recognize her face as anyone I was familiar with, but after taking it once I was able to correctly identify her the second time, because of the uniqueness of her face ... three things, her eyelids, cheekbones, and jawline (esp relative to mouth size.)
I did better this time.
Out of 30 faces, you correctly identified 10.
You were familiar with 17 of the people in this test.
If we exclude the ones you were unfamiliar with, you got 59% correct.

Last time I only identified 7.

Aaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnyyyyyyyyyyyways ...



Edit:
I lol'd at this thread that I found. It's sort of embarrassing when a newer person I work with comes in with their friends (out of uniform) and I can't figure out who they are. Especially when they're asking for their paycheck, and I don't realize that they work there versus being a customer that comes in often enough that I recognize them as familiar. Hasn't happened a lot, but still ...
A couple times I've asked a customer, "Wait, were you here earlier today?" And they're like, "No ..." 

Lol, story time again ... just Friday I was sitting in the lobby after work and someone came in as a customer that I thought I recognized. I thought she was my old English teacher from 9th/10th grade (which is now 7 or so years ago) who had moved about an hour away, years ago. But I wasn't sure, I didn't think it entirely looked like her ... well she actually came over to me because she saw me, and it wasn't until she smiled and actually started talking to me that I realized she was one of the school administrators (at least, I think that was her job, anyways, I knew exactly who she was) and that I had totally misidentified her. She was someone that I knew very well while I was at that school, I saw her almost every day for four years.

Wow, and I just keep going on about this. I didn't realize I had so many examples. 

All that to say, though, it could be Ni.


----------



## CarenRose (Aug 18, 2010)

Gah. Double-post because it's not related and I've already edited the above post like 1,000,000 times.

I actually tested as an INFP once. And I'm pretty sure I acted like it, too. But that was a long time ago, now.

And I also have(had) social anxiety disorder. I may or may not be bipolar.


----------



## IDontThinkSo (Aug 24, 2011)

Paradigm said:


> I thought you were asking the OP...


And you were right, but you're there so I'm asking you as well ..


----------



## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

IDontThinkSo said:


> We use them all, everyday. Let's figure out how do you use them instead. What comes first when you make a decision ?
> 
> 1- What works or your conscience ?
> 2- Justice or empathy ?


1: First, what works. Then what is morally justifiable. _Then _what will work with the most ethics.
2: Um... both, really. I always hated the poor bread thief question because I could empathize with the guy. But I have absolutely no grief about, say, a drug addict dying from an overdose because it's like, "Well, you knew it could happen." So... I dunno, take that as you will.

Oh, and sorry about the confusion :happy:


----------



## IDontThinkSo (Aug 24, 2011)

No problem, ah, you're undoubtedly a XXTJ !


----------



## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

IDontThinkSo said:


> No problem, ah, you're undoubtedly a XXTJ !


Lol, thank you!



CarenRose said:


> Gah. Double-post because it's not related and I've already edited the above post like 1,000,000 times.
> 
> I actually tested as an INFP once. And I'm pretty sure I acted like it, too. But that was a long time ago, now.
> 
> And I also have(had) social anxiety disorder. I may or may not be bipolar.


 Sorry it took me so long to reply!

You know, I can relate to you a fair bit, actually. :happy: I found your previous post interesting, too. Thanks for sharing! I'd score even worse than you on that test (I'm very very clueless about media--the other day I asked, "Who is Harrison Ford?" and my dad stared at me, aghast), so I'm not really inclined to try 

SA sucks, I'm still struggling with it. It's good to know people "overcome" the thing. And sorry to hear about your possible bipolarness.


----------



## CarenRose (Aug 18, 2010)

Paradigm said:


> "Who is Harrison Ford?"


Uh ... who _is_ he?
Don't worry. I googled it. It's not like I've never heard of him before, though, just that I couldn't remember what his occupation was. And therefore anything he's ever been in.

Re: face test ... I think it would be better to have an assortment of mostly-average faces shown and to ask something like "have you seen this face previously (in the test)" and all with neutral expressions. Don't know how well "normal" people would do on it though, if there would be a significant difference.

Re: social anxiety ... at least, for me, the underlying thought process is still there, but the anxiety itself is gone. Even still, I prefer not to walk along a major street when a block up is not a major street, or to walk along a street where a lot of people are outside versus businesses or areas where people are clearly inside their houses. I've worked for 4 years at my current job, which is incredibly stressful and drives me crazy, because I can't bring myself to fill out applications elsewhere ... because I'm afraid of interviews. There are a million other little examples I could give, too.
Story time again. Lol ...
My junior year of high school, when I was 15, I actually started going to see a counselor about my SA issues (which didn't seem like it did any good at the time, but I can't really say if it did or didn't ...) but I eventually just kind of stopped going. But that same year they changed our club-day schedule at school to something really stupid. (Basically, one day a month we had a "club day" where we were allowed to leave class to go to our chosen club/s.) Nobody liked it and it was widely complained about by students and teachers, so I decided to make a petition and get as many people as possible to sign it. By the time I turned it in I had over 300 signatures. I had some help from friends, passing it around at lunch ... but still I approached many many people who I didn't know, asking them to sign this petition, often even getting into brief conversations about it ... 
I think ever since then, I haven't had nearly as many problems.

...


----------

