# Ketosis



## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Recently I've experienced a change in my anxiety/depression levels. Three days took me into a happier mindset with my anxiety levels depleted to it's normal level and I felt happier. This was a paleo diet. Just curious, is this ketosis feeling from paleo safe long term? Are there any studies on this? Thanks.


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## Blystone (Oct 11, 2012)

I've been paleo for 2 years, in an almost constant state of ketosis (the only exception are cheat days or when I'm bulking). I had bloodwork done 1 year ago, perfect results. I haven't had any negative experience thus far, in fact I've only seen improvements in my self-esteem and general well being.


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

One question, how can you have a paleo diet when paleolothic humans had very varied diets that depended on so many circumstances? They still did not even grow crops. Sometimes they survived on berries for weeks and suddenly found a huge ass mammoth to feast on for a few days... Anyway, If it makes you feel better, keep it on, but I'd say it's just a placebo effect. Also, did you go to therapy? How is your husband?

BTW.... Ketosis is just your body using fat for energy... there is no feeling


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## Blystone (Oct 11, 2012)

Diligent Procrastinator said:


> One question, how can you have a paleo diet when paleolothic humans had very varied diets that depended on so many circumstances? They still did not even grow crops. Sometimes they survived on berries for weeks and suddenly found a huge ass mammoth to feast on for a few days... Anyway, If it makes you feel better, keep it on, but I'd say it's just a placebo effect. Also, did you go to therapy? How is your husband?
> 
> BTW.... Ketosis is just your body using fat for energy... there is no feeling


Sounds like you don't understand what the placebo effect is.


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

JSRS01 said:


> Sounds like you don't understand what the placebo effect is.


Sounds like you don't. It is feeling better after taking something under the assumption that it will make you feel better, but it in fact had no properties to do so. Placebo effect.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

@chip, I think a good person for you to talk to is @bromide. If I'm not mistaken, she's been doing this for a while now


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Diligent Procrastinator said:


> Sounds like you don't. It is feeling better after taking something under the assumption that it will make you feel better, but it in fact had no properties to do so. Placebo effect.




I'm thinking I'm going to feel better after I eat this donut. Mm, it tastes SO good. Chocolate, too. I FEEL GREAT. I FEEL HIGH. *20 minutes pass* Oh god. My heart..it's palpitating, I feel so weak, pale, and sweaty. I don't know how much longer I can stand. I have white tunnel vision. What the hell is going on??? I thought the placebo effect would save me. I thought it would make me feel better!


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Ace Face said:


> @_chip_, I think a good person for you to talk to is @_bromide_. If I'm not mistaken, she's been doing this for a while now



I'm a little scared to. Not because she's scary or anything or mean etc, but I'm tired of asking for advice and being told that it's all in my fucking head. Sorry for cussing. Something is wrong with me, and I am not up to homeostasis and I really want to be.


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Listen, this isn't a placebo effect. This effects me in every way because I'm hypoglycemic for one. I don't have anxiety disorder, I'm reactive hypoglycemic and you can research on google about this. There are so many people who experience this. Look at the forums.


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

chip said:


> I'm thinking I'm going to feel better after I eat this donut. Mm, it tastes SO good. Chocolate, too. I FEEL GREAT. I FEEL HIGH. *20 minutes pass* Oh god. My heart..it's palpitating, I feel so weak, pale, and sweaty. I don't know how much longer I can stand. I have white tunnel vision. What the hell is going on??? I thought the placebo effect would save me. I thought it would make me feel better!


It's not saying it. It's actually BELIEVING it. Give an ill person a donut, telling them it is used to make the taste of the medicine less noticeable, and they would actually feel a bit better from it.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

chip said:


> I'm a little scared to. Not because she's scary or anything or mean etc, but I'm tired of asking for advice and being told that it's all in my fucking head. Sorry for cussing. Something is wrong with me, and I am not up to homeostasis and I really want to be.


Fuck anyone who says it's all in your head. Your know yourself way better than anyone else--that's for damn sure! And bromide wouldn't treat you like that. She only treats me like that  ...kidding. Jokes aside, I know what it feels like to think people aren't taking your problems seriously. For me, it was, "Oh, no way... she's too happy to have those kinds of issues." Pfft, for fuck's sake @[email protected] Even those close to me were completely fucking clueless. In any case, don't let the haters and nay-sayers get you down, homes <3 There are people out there who understand. Sometimes, they can be hard to find though <3


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Diligent Procrastinator said:


> It's not saying it. It's actually BELIEVING it. Give an ill person a donut, telling them it is used to make the taste of the medicine less noticeable, and they would actually feel a bit better from it.


I've believed that before because every doctor has told me the same thing. "If your blood sugar goes too low, eat something with a very high GI. Eat a donut. Eat a piece of candy." And I do, believing it will make me feel better, and it does, and then it makes me feel like shit. It's a rollercoaster of sugar highs and lows, all day long. Whether people want to believe it or not, what you eat effects you.


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Ace Face said:


> Fuck anyone who says it's all in your head. Your know yourself way better than anyone else--that's for damn sure! And bromide wouldn't treat you like that. She only treats me like that  ...kidding. Jokes aside, I know what it feels like to think people aren't taking your problems seriously. For me, it was, "Oh, no way... she's too happy to have those kinds of issues." Pfft, for fuck's sake @[email protected] Even those close to me were completely fucking clueless. In any case, don't let the haters and nay-sayers get you down, homes <3 There are people out there who understand. Sometimes, they can be hard to find though <3



You're so sweet. You are right, they are hard to find. Most people actually listen to what their doctors say. The same people who don't even research, listening to doctors who don't know jack shit about nutrition because they would have to actually take a private separate class for that, and they don't. Because a lot of doctors are in it for the money. I can't thank your post, so thank you, that's better saying it than clicking a button I think. <3 <3 <3 the funny thing is, when I ask for advice, people tell me I am only nice to those who tell me what I want to hear. Nope, I'm just not agreeing with people who don't know my body and think they do.


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

chip said:


> I've believed that before because every doctor has told me the same thing. "If your blood sugar goes too low, eat something with a very high GI. Eat a donut. Eat a piece of candy." And I do, believing it will make me feel better, and it does, and then it makes me feel like shit. It's a rollercoaster of sugar highs and lows, all day long. Whether people want to believe it or not, what you eat effects you.


Maybe you have bad reactions to gluten. Eat other sweets if your blood sugar is low.


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Diligent Procrastinator said:


> Maybe you have bad reactions to gluten. Eat other sweets if your blood sugar is low.


You weren't trying to tell me it's just a placebo effect or was the other person doing that? I think I got confused.


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

chip said:


> You weren't trying to tell me it's just a placebo effect or was the other person doing that? I think I got confused.


What? No, I wasn't saying it is, I was saying I _think_ it is. Because of the questions I asked...


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Diligent Procrastinator said:


> What? No, I wasn't saying it is, I was saying I _think_ it is. Because of the questions I asked...


Well, it's totally not a placebo effect with me.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

chip said:


> I'm thinking I'm going to feel better after I eat this donut. Mm, it tastes SO good. Chocolate, too. I FEEL GREAT. I FEEL HIGH. *20 minutes pass* Oh god. My heart..it's palpitating, I feel so weak, pale, and sweaty. I don't know how much longer I can stand. I have white tunnel vision. What the hell is going on??? I thought the placebo effect would save me. I thought it would make me feel better!


I have only recently started looking into paleo, but what you are describing sounds like reactive hypoglycemia. It seems like your sugar levels crash after eating carby food, in this example anyway.


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## Devin87 (May 15, 2011)

I've lost about 90 pounds eating primal and I've been able to go off all my medication. If it's a placebo, my mind is more powerful than I thought (and like every other ENTP, I pretty much think my mind is God's gift to humanity...).


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## Devin87 (May 15, 2011)

Boss said:


> I have only recently started looking into paleo, but what you are describing sounds like reactive hypoglycemia. It seems like your sugar levels crash after eating carby food, in this example anyway.


A lot of it is not being used to the blood sugar roller coaster anymore. Most people have been on that roller coaster their entire lives and don't feel the effects. Once you cut back on your sugars and start keeping your levels steady, you just feel the effects more. Everyone's body reacts negatively to those spikes and drops, they're just used to it and don't recognize it. The other night I had a bacon milkshake at Denny's (I couldn't NOT try it) and I was shaking after from all the sugar in that thing. My body's just not used to that junk anymore.


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## Blystone (Oct 11, 2012)

Diligent Procrastinator said:


> Sounds like you don't. It is feeling better after taking something under the assumption that it will make you feel better, but it in fact had no properties to do so. Placebo effect.


No. Food is essentially a drug. What you consume affects your body in a very real way. Placebo effect invalid.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Devin87 said:


> A lot of it is not being used to the blood sugar roller coaster anymore. Most people have been on that roller coaster their entire lives and don't feel the effects. Once you cut back on your sugars and start keeping your levels steady, you just feel the effects more. * Everyone's body reacts negatively to those spikes and drops, they're just used to it and don't recognize it.* The other night I had a bacon milkshake at Denny's (I couldn't NOT try it) and I was shaking after from all the sugar in that thing. My body's just not used to that junk anymore.


It's possible that after going paleo for a while a person's body may become more sensitive to spikes and drops (I'll have to research this more). Though, recurrent symptomatic hypoglycemia in non-paleo and even paleo folk is likely to indicate issues with carb metabolism, because everyone doesn't react "negatively" to spikes and lows, not assuming special circumstances like heavy exercise or something like consistent overeating. For instance, I have been testing pp blood sugar out of interest. And there's no abnormal spike/low following carb ingestion at the 1, 2 and 4 hour marks or even later. I have monitored myself for well over a month. I have a normoglycemic response to an OGTT. I don't experience hypoglycemia, not because I am "used to" spikes and lows but because I don't experience crashing lows. I can eat a donut just fine, and check my pp blood sugar and find it in the normal range. I have eaten worse things than donuts lol and still had normal blood sugar numbers.


Some people just have impaired first phase insulin response, for a variety of reasons including abdominal surgery etc., whether or not they're on a paleo regimen. Symptomatic hypoglycemia should be investigated, like I said. The key would be to look into how often these episodes take place, whether they've been taking place since before paleo or not, and whether they resolve upon ingesting simple carbs following the low. If it resolves this way, it indicates further investigation. It's why I told OP that the one instance seemed like reactive hypoglycemia, whether or not that's the case can only be discovered with proper testing.


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

JSRS01 said:


> No. Food is essentially a drug. What you consume affects your body in a very real way. Placebo effect invalid.


Yeah, like the diet that paleolithic humans ate. oh, right, they had no specific diet! The name alone would be cause for a placebo effect.


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## Blystone (Oct 11, 2012)

Diligent Procrastinator said:


> Yeah, like the diet that paleolithic humans ate. oh, right, they had no specific diet! The name alone would be cause for a placebo effect.


Your own presumption is invalid. Everything has a diet, a specific diet. Quite obviously you don't eat photons, likewise plants do not eat meat. Absurd generalization such as that do not validate your position. 

But more importantly, whether the presumption that paleolithic man primary ate meat is valid or invalid is irrelevant. What is relevant is the results and effects of current man consuming meat. Which has been empirically observed to provide excellent results.


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

JSRS01 said:


> Your own presumption is invalid. Everything has a diet, a specific diet. Quite obviously you don't eat photons, likewise plants do not eat meat. Absurd generalization such as that do not validate your position.
> 
> But more importantly, whether the presumption that paleolithic man primary ate meat is valid or invalid is irrelevant. What is relevant is the results and effects of current man consuming meat. Which has been empirically observed to provide excellent results.


Nice try. lol


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## Blystone (Oct 11, 2012)

Diligent Procrastinator said:


> Nice try. lol


No rebuttal?


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

Diligent Procrastinator said:


> One question, how can you have a paleo diet when paleolothic humans had very varied diets that depended on so many circumstances? They still did not even grow crops. Sometimes they survived on berries for weeks and suddenly found a huge ass mammoth to feast on for a few days...


The scientific basis behind "paleo" diets is basically pseudoscience. Like part of a paleo diet is not eating grains, but there's evidence that paleolithic peoples did eat grains at various times and places. There's lots of other factors that explain paleolithic peoples not suffering from contemporary disease as well besides their diets. Also in the modern era it gets sort of ridiculous because people will talk about "eating the way our ancestors did" when they're going to the supermarket and buying chicken pumped full of hormones and antibiotics and produce sprayed with pesticides shipped from the other side of the country. It's based on a specific gene-centered view of evolution that is controversial in the scientific community. The notion that the human body has not evolved and adapted for new diets in the ~10,000 years since the Paleolithic era is not supported by the evidence. All that being said though I don't doubt certain people have health benefits from doing it. Modern diets are overly heavy on carbohydrates (speaking about US specifically here) and any diet that has you cut down on those is probably going to result in health benefits if you're already eating an excess of carbs like most people. Diets also in general make people more conscious about the food they're eating, regardless of the validity of the diet itself. So I don't doubt a lot of people have been benefited by switching to a "paleo" diet but a lot of the scientific reasoning behind such a diet is pretty dubious, if you're seeing benefits from it its not because you're eating the way your body has naturally evolved to eat or whatever.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

so now we have 2 threads discussing about paleo, great :tongue:


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

The reason people don't get so sensitive when it comes to insulin is because some people are still resilient to the refined and processed carbs. There are three types of carbohydrates and the best ones are complex. Over time, you use up your 'carb points' as in, you fill your bucket too high and it starts to over flow with insulin. This creates a reaction so we become diabetic or hypoglycemic. The cause of this are the white starches and sugars and cave men didn't eat this bull shit back then. They had better foods. Some doctors diagnosis people as dysglycemic. This is hypoglycemia or pre diabetic. 

This is why a lot of people when they're older will get diabetes. Also, I've known people who ate healthily and reversed their diabetes/hypo by getting rid of gluten in their diet, because gluten can cause a host of problems in the gluten sensitive individual. 

All I was asking in my original post was: Is paleo good long term?


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Diligent Procrastinator said:


> Nice try. lol


I hate to point this out but if you want to debate with people, then take it to the debate forum and stop making my thread into a joke, please and stop being immature.


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

chip said:


> I hate to point this out but if you want to debate with people, then take it to the debate forum and stop making my thread into a joke, please and stop being immature.


Wow. Look who's calling someone immature. BTW, in case you didn't notice, we stopped talking hours ago, AND it was about the diet.


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Diligent Procrastinator said:


> Wow. Look who's calling someone immature. BTW, in case you didn't notice, we stopped talking hours ago, AND it was about the diet.



I didn't know you were speaking for everyone else when it comes to the time frame for responses. I guess everyone stopped responding. It seems like you're the only one stirring things up here, though and I'm asking you nicely to stop doing it. 

Here:

The Debate Forum

Ask "Is paleo placebo effect only?" if it makes you upset that other people here have differing views.


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

chip said:


> I didn't know you were speaking for everyone else when it comes to the time frame for responses. I guess everyone stopped responding. It seems like you're the only one stirring things up here, though and I'm asking you nicely to stop doing it.
> 
> Here:
> 
> ...


Me and whom I was talking to, genius.


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Diligent Procrastinator said:


> Me and whom I was talking to, genius.


Can you please stop derailing this thread?


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

chip said:


> Can you please stop derailing this thread?


Ketosis (pron.: /kɨˈtoʊsɨs/) is a state of elevated levels of ketone bodies in the body. It is almost always generalized throughout the body, with hyperketonemia, that is, an elevated level of ketone bodies in the blood. Ketone bodies are formed by ketogenesis when liver glycogen stores are depleted. The ketone bodies acetoacetate and β-hydroxybutyrate are used for energy.


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

Diligent Procrastinator said:


> Ketosis (pron.: /kɨˈtoʊsɨs/) is a state of elevated levels of ketone bodies in the body. It is almost always generalized throughout the body, with hyperketonemia, that is, an elevated level of ketone bodies in the blood. Ketone bodies are formed by ketogenesis when liver glycogen stores are depleted. The ketone bodies acetoacetate and β-hydroxybutyrate are used for energy.



I know what ketosis is. You're still derailing. If you don't stop, I'm going to ask an admin/moderator to make a separation agreement between us.


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

chip said:


> I know what ketosis is. You're still derailing. If you don't stop, I'm going to ask an admin/moderator to make a separation agreement between us.


Okay. I await the message. I already agree.


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

*Unhealthy metabolic state (ketosis). Low-carb diets can cause your body to go into a dangerous metabolic state called ketosis since your body burns fat instead of glucose for energy. During ketosis, the body forms substances known as ketones, which can cause organs to fail and result in gout, kidney stones, or kidney failure. Ketones can also dull a person's appetite, cause nausea and bad breath. Ketosis can be prevented by eating at least 100 grams of carbohydrates a day.

*Low-Carb, High-Protein Diets: Risks (Ketosis) and Benefits


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

JSRS01 said:


> I've been paleo for 2 years, in an almost constant state of ketosis (the only exception are cheat days or when I'm bulking). I had bloodwork done 1 year ago, perfect results. I haven't had any negative experience thus far, in fact I've only seen improvements in my self-esteem and general well being.


Sorry I am responding so late about this. What is your diet plan like? I have been trying very very hard not to eat sugar of any kind, even fructose. Do you eat any sugar?


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## Blystone (Oct 11, 2012)

chip said:


> Sorry I am responding so late about this. What is your diet plan like? I have been trying very very hard not to eat sugar of any kind, even fructose. Do you eat any sugar?


Not a problem. 

I do eat sugar, but it is entirely from vegetable sources.

My stats: Male 5'9 147 lbs. 10% body fat.
My diet is fairly simple: 1lb grass fed steak, 1 dozen eggs, and 1 1/2 cups of tomato sauce (I prefer Ragu Tradiontional). 
This runs me ~62g carbs, 21g sugar, 178g protein, 106g fat. 1950 calories.


I do want to note that I'm looking to build about 1 1/2lb muscle over the next 2 months, so my diet is suited to that goal.

I assume you're looking to lose weight. So if I were in your position, I would cut the tomato sauce in half, increase my fat intake by ~20-40g, and drop my protein intake by ~30g.


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