# Type nine: Bigger assholes than you may think



## Masterpiece (Jul 17, 2016)

Lurking around these forums, I'm flabbergasted that there seems to be little mention of the nine assholery. I've seen explanations of how the other types can be assholes (yes, even 2s), but for nines, there seems to be little to nothing. However, I do think that they can potentially be the biggest assholes on the enneagram wheel.

The truth is, unhealthy nines are more selfish than all the other types put together. Now all of you may think I'm sputtering bullshit here, (as they are known for being selfless), but think about it; unhealthy nines tend to disengage with their external environment, and that includes the people around them. They numb out, and withdraw, in an effort to maintain their peaceful state. With the other unhealthy types, yes, they may lash out, they may project themselves onto you, they may become obsessive. But at least you know where they stand and what they want, and above all, you know where you stand with them. They at least engage with you, so it's much less ambiguous with them. With unhealthy nines, though? You have absolutely no idea. When you interact with them, they won't be fully present to you or themselves, they don't fully engage in the conversation. Why? Because they don't want to be affected by the external world, because being affected invites the risk of ruining their peaceful state. But they won't express that sentiment directly; instead, they put on the facade of nodding and agreeing, closing off all opportunities for both parties to fully engage in the conversation. When they agree with you, they may not even have listened to what you've been saying the whole time. Their agreement is intended to shoot down any path ways to a deep, intimate/genuine conversation/relationship, because such conversations invite the potential conflict which they try so hard to avoid. In a way, it's kind of like when someone sends you a passionate message filled with walls and walls of text, and you just reply "OK." to shut off the conversation. Conversations with unhealthy nines thus feel extremely one-sided; they just don't make the effort to participate in it. And remember what I said about preserving inner peace? Now imagine someone putting it into words: "I'd much rather keep my inner peace than engage with you and let your words affect me." or "I refuse to take your words seriously because they may ruin my inner peace, and my inner peace is much more important." Or even, "I'm just nodding and smiling here so that you won't bother me." If that isn't selfishness at it's finest, then I don't know what is.

And I know fives are seen as the masters of emotional detachment. But the thing is, unhealthy nines don't just detach, they become genuinely apathetic. There's a difference. Fives wouldn't like to admit it, but internally they do care. They do care about their stance in the world, they are afraid of the effects the world may have on them, so they _detach on purpose_. And as long as they're afraid, it means that they are not fundamentally apathetic at their core, no matter how much they may try to disengage from their environment. They purposefully isolate themselves behind glass walls and view their external environment through it, while they obsessively obtain knowledge so that they can remain safely behind it. Yes, they are greedy when it comes to obtaining knowledge, but again, this means that they are not fundamentally apathetic; this greed creates a drive within them, a motivation to perform self-voluntary actions independent of external effects. Unhealthy nines, on the other hand, are easily swayed by their external environment. But why would I say this when I had just said that they refuse to be affected by the external world? It's here that we should know something: Being swayed by their environment doesn't come from a place of willingness; it comes from a place of apathy. They are easily swayed because they can't be bothered enough to have a firm stance of their own; all the conflict that comes with having one just isn't worth the sacrifice of their peaceful state. And as long as they remain apathetic at their core, their external environment will never truly affect them on a fundamental level, despite them going along with the 'currents'. This is where their accommodating demeanor comes from, and while you may think of it as pleasant as first, you should be reminded that the driving force behind it is _apathy_. And it rears it's ugly side when you need them to actually _care_. I've seen my type 9 father display this ugly side of it before -- he is usually very receptive to our desires and wants -- almost to the point of being a pushover. But when family issues arises and my mom starts venting her unhappiness to him, he occupies himself by looking at his phone/television/staring off into space. He blocks her out, he refuses to be present to her unhappiness because he doesn't want it to leave a stain on his peaceful blank slate. He doesn't care enough to either engage in _or_ mediate the conflict, so he disassociates and withdraw. This is an example of a pleasant, accommodating person in one moment turning into an uncaring, apathetic one the next. And you know what? You wouldn't even see it coming.

Another matter here is the well-hidden controlling undertone of nines. People often accuse eights and ones for being controlling, and I don't blame them, because they _can_ be. But nines -- they control on a whole other level. People say ones control by enforcing discipline/order onto their environments, while eights control by threatening others with their heavy/overwhelming presence. But nines? These little motherf*ckers don't even _have_ to get off their seats. In fact, they control others by just SITTING there. Whenever they're forced unwillingly into a situation, they slow it/others down by putting the situation on 'pause', by not taking _any_ action. Pull them into a situation and they'll nod and say 'sure' at first. _Then_ when you're just about to be off on your merry way, you turn your head back only to see them slowing the entire process/plan down by doing absolutely _nothing_. Nines are stubborn. They LOATHE obligation in any form; they value their autonomy. Shove anything that even _smells_ like obligation in their face, and you can bet they'd shut it out from their system faster than you can think. And the worst part? They don't even give you the chance to confront them about their unwillingness, because they don't even express it outwardly. Internally they may have already decided that they are _not_ going to be involved in any way, but they nod and agree anyway so that you can't argue with them about it. Their outward agreement shoots down any possibilities of their unwillingness being called out, and this allows for them to continue on with their inaction; this is how they remain unaffected by their environment. They don't _bother_ protesting outwardly, because deep down, they KNOW that there is no way you can force them into doing anything they don't want to do. And they KNOW you can't do _shit_ about it. _This_ is how nines 'take control' of the situation.

It may seem like I'm bashing nines here ('hell am I talkin' 'bout? I AM bashing them), so to level things out, I'm going to say that nines also have a level of badassery that's also been _sorely_ underestimated (yes, this even applies to unhealthy nines). First off, all the nines I know are tough as hell -- all of them have managed to outlast various adversities that would make others break. There's just something about the lack of focus on themselves, combined with the general low maintenance and go-with-the-flow-attitude that creates a sort of 'sturdy' undertone to them. They are the only people I know to enjoy the smell of their coffee while a shitstorm fucking brews outside. They are the only people I know to tell self-deprecating jokes _while_ being walked on all over by others. They are literally the human punching-bags; they take shit like no others -- they walk through hell with a fucking smile.

Then there's the inertia. Yeah, inertia plays a part in their inaction, but once they _do_ get going......there's just no stopping them. One does not simply 'stop' them when they're in _these_ states; it's just impossible. They get stuck in the zone; they become one with their environment, they become one with their movements/bodies, and they just keep going. It doesn't matter if a hurricane appears before them; they freaking charge through it. From an outsider's perspective, they resemble a bull charging towards the red cloth; but from their own, everything is moving swiftly around them and they are at complete peace with themselves -- yes, _even_ when they're charging through the hurricane. And that's admirable as hell.


(Also, I'm currently considering nine as my type, if that helps to smoothen things out. Heh.)


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## 000 (Jul 3, 2016)

I love nines! And although I agree with much of this, why do you think anyone owes you their presence, or participation in conversation, or action? For example, if you don't reply, I won't be all butthurt, lol. The exception being in workplace environment when I need their action and presence do my job, but they tend not to take positions where pressure on them is constant. My dad has had unhealthy periods as a 9w8 and it is frustrating. What works for me is to slow them down even more when that's possible, then the dynamic changes, and plans and decisions get made.


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## Buttahfly (Jul 30, 2013)

Sometimes I go play ranked games on League of Legends only to troll people. 
I will play support role and instead of supporting I will either afk 50% of the time or steal the gold from my carry. Whenever my team complains I will act very innocent in chat and grin or laugh in real life. 
It's a way to vent my anger and frustration in a weird way instead of doing it in the actual situation. Nobody's perfect.

Me, a bigger asshole than you may think.


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## Masterpiece (Jul 17, 2016)

000 said:


> I love nines! However, I agree with some of this but why do you think anyone owes you their presence, or participation in conversation, or action?


I don't think anyone owes me their presence or participation; it's about opening doors to a more genuine relationship/conversation. The nines I know tend to keep things at a very surface level, and I suppose they fear going deeper than that because it may invite more potential for conflict. But then again, that's only with the nines I know. Now, there's nothing wrong with that, but it does make you seem a little shut off. But I'm like this myself, and I might also be a nine, so I can't really judge them for it. I'm just saying how they can come across as 'cold' to others by doing this.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

This is so true! *two shots of vodka*

The thing is, when nines won't do something so simple as _keep their words_, it destroys trust. When they aren't present when their presence is expected, and they refused to see anything wrong with that when confronted, then people start to lose their trust in those nines. Ironically, for the type whose Holy Idea is "All is One", they sure are good at dividing.

When nines have internally decided _not_ to do something, but on the outside, they say whatever it takes to get you off their back, they're straight up liars. If you need to rely on them to pass a message along, they might not. If you remind them to pass a message along to someone else, then they get internally pissed and start refusing. In the event they that pass a message along, there's a good chance that the message was butchered. They exploit people's trust in them and no one would know until it's too late. In this way, they are exceptionally capable at manipulating a group of people behind their backs. I fear/hate being controlled, but I have to admit, I was pretty impressed...

My favorite is when they do the "follow the letter of the law but violate the spirit of the law" thing. If they do agree to go along with something, they might only do so _physically_. Their emotions, attitude, and engagement are so shitty that it sabotages any effort to establish good will. Like, "hey, let's go to this festival!" They could agree but then bitch on the entire ride there, ruining the positive mood for everyone.

There's also the "daydreaming" aspect of them, which I guess is part of the "inner peace". My ex (9w1/4/5) wasn't very healthy, and he preferred his picture-perfect ideal relationship more than the real relationship. Last I checked, he kept trying to relive his idealized, completely-divorced-from-what-actually-happened past, filled with images of people he deliberately misrepresented in his fantasy state. It always escapes his reach, he becomes disappointed, and then numbs.

In his internal world, all of anything that makes me human gets stripped out. Along with the inertia thing, he absolutely feared and hated change. I'm someone who embraces personal growth opportunities that change offers, and he didn't. He specifically told me that he couldn't trust me _because_ I changed so much. And yet, he had the gall to become indignant when I told him that I couldn't trust him because he never meant the words he said. 

I mean, _really_, in the _same_ conversation: he straight up told me he couldn't trust me, then told me he wanted me trust him, and when I pointed out that this was incredibly unfair and one-sided, he said he thought the arrangement was completely fair because I'm untrustworthy and he's trustworthy, and when I asked him whether he thought a relationship between us could work like that, he responded "yes". Ok... In hindsight, I'm not sure why I stuck around for so long, but I did grow to become a lot more patient, so I got that going for me...

Meanwhile, he put himself in a state of arrested development, and he likes it that way, goddamnit. _Still_ constantly replaying the same video games from his childhood over and over again. Oh! And when he lent some of his favorite video games to his nephews, and through some misunderstanding and losing track of things, his sister (the nephews' mother) sold the video games. Then my ex became pissed and refused to talk to his sister for months. By all accounts I heard, his sister didn't know the video games belonged to my ex and my ex didn't keep track of his things. But when other family members told him to get over it, he became even more angry/numb by continuing to refuse to talk to them. 

Basically, nines, at their worst, employ the silent treatment to control anyone and everyone around them. They won't speak to others, and when others are trying to reach them, it's like talking to a black hole. A wall would actually have structure, but a black hole doesn't. They weren't paying any attention to what was said to them and they refuse to start. 

I've been hurt and burned so badly by this that I became really impressed, so I tried to learn their secret to becoming the biggest assholes in existence. From what I can tell, how numb nines are is directly proportional to how angry they are. The more stationary/inert they are, the more pissed they are. Somewhere in my journey of self-discovery, my "inner observer" stumbled onto an unfamiliar pool of formless anger that I think is where nines tap into, (and I bet is where ones try to chuck their anger into and that's why it backfires on them,) and holy shit, there was like an infinite amount of it! *taps into it*

I'm _such_ a vindictive bitch, so I felt the need to "clean myself" and destroy any semblance of sentimentality and connection with this person. Nines are associated with forgetting and self-forgetting, so memories. Every time you recall a memory, you end up changing it. So for good measure, I try to recall as many memories as I can and then infuse it with negative, heart-breaking emotions, which isn't hard to do when I realized how much of a liar he is. I noticed all of those times that I've been micro-transaction lied to and changed the importance and context of those memories. Whatever sweet, agreeable person facade he puts on, all I can see are the reasons I couldn't trust him. I "corrupt" those memories, or perhaps, I restored the truth to those memories, to the point where _I_ become numb. 

It's because of these people that the best form of vengeance is moving on, living well, and forgetting about them... Ya know, be angry, stop talking, and then forgive and forget? Why would I forgive him? Because in the end, I pitied him. In his world, and what he told his friends, he's always the victim. He's never taken responsibility for his life, and refused to take responsibility for his role in broken relationships. _Because_ he's so numb, he'll never feel happiness. I don't really want to see him ever again, because there's a good possibility I might be incredibly disappointed that he didn't grow up or change, and then I become sad for humanity and then _my_ inner peace gets ruined.


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## Stellafera (Jan 19, 2015)

This thread is brutal. I love it. We should have a thread as brutal as this for all the types.

Except maybe 2s. Everyone already knows they're manipulative a-holes.


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## Dyidia (May 28, 2010)

Yep, I'm a 9 and this seems pretty accurate.

And if it helps, basically I don't like having to explain stuff. Most of my friends if they offer a suggestion or ask if I'm down to do something and I say "eh, no thanks/not really," they'll leave it. But some people wanna try to sell you on stuff -- try to get you to justify things. And sure, usually it's not that hard to come up with an explanation, but the more someone tries to push the more I'm just gonna end up being like "OK." Much less troublesome when I know bringing up one thing doesn't mean I'll have to bring up a bunch of others with it.


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## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

Masterpiece said:


> I've seen explanations of how the other types can be a**holes *(yes, even 2s)*




I'll refer to the following post...



Stellafera said:


> This thread is brutal. I love it. We should have a thread as brutal as this for all the types.
> 
> *Except maybe 2s. Everyone already knows they're manipulative a-holes.*


I hope you don't think all twos are like that..


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

I really like this thread. Enneagram's about faults but the 9 faults I think are hard to get into words. When I talk to my 9 mother about Enneagram her response is like, "But it sounds like all these other types have these faults but what's actually the problem with 9? I'm too...easygoing and peaceful?" next time I can read this to her 

And I agree with most of the points made. I think the 'following the letter of the law but breaking the spirit of the law' thing is huge. Like on the surface there's nothing wrong with mentally checking out; you're not going to get in trouble for 'seeming like you're not paying attention' or whatever but the problem you should be fixing/the event you should be engaging in/whatever-it-might-be still exists, because the external expectations have been 'answered' does not mean that there are not real, internal or actual expectations that need to be met; sending a check doesn't count if you don't sign it.



Stellafera said:


> Except maybe 2s. Everyone already knows they're manipulative a-holes.


:kitteh:

I think 9s and 2s need to hear about their faults the most though - pride and sloth take a lot to be chipped away at


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## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

Phoenix Virtue said:


> :kitteh:
> 
> I think 9s and 2s need to hear about their faults the most though - pride and sloth take a lot to be chipped away at


Indeed - how else do we progress out of our blind spots? Criticism is very valuable.


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## Malandro (Jul 17, 2014)

Asshole nines are irresponsible. They make decisions so that they don't have to take responsibility for anything. People who aren't too sharp will see that as them being 'caring' but really, they're just being lazy arseholes.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Well, you're not the first person I've seen pointing out how 9s can be assholes. Or how they can be problematic anyway.


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## sometimes (Dec 26, 2013)

I think worse than the avoidance/ignoring is some of them tend to deny that anything bad ever happened or they did anything wrong. Which can then end up by shifting blame on to the other person instead for being too 'negative'.


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## O_o (Oct 22, 2011)

That unique blend of asshole 9 is more likely to frustrate some types over others, as well. 

My best friend and an ex are 9s. When it's fine, it's very fine, all until an issue comes up. And this type of calm apathy or 'casual' mental wall hits me harder than any overreaction, anxiety or neuroticism. I would rather get into a raging or hysterical shout fight with someone than get faced with that wall. 

For people who expect the direct and a reaction, engagement, that wall can be one of the most frustrating things to face. Very impressive, for sure. But it always makes me want to dig in harder rather than back off. Angered by the fact that I can't get through with something that I think is important. That effect of one pushing and pushing forwards as the other retreats further is unhealthy for both.


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## Malandro (Jul 17, 2014)

pippylongstocking said:


> I think worse than the avoidance/ignoring is some of them tend to deny that anything bad ever happened or they did anything wrong. Which can then end up by shifting blame on to the other person instead for being too 'negative'.


This is literally what my mum does. 18 years of that bullshit XD

(Oh no, I'm that one who brings up their mum... Ah well)


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## Stellafera (Jan 19, 2015)

He's a Superhero! said:


> I hope you don't think all twos are like that..


Oh, no, not at all. I was just being cheeky.


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## bruh (Oct 27, 2015)

I just want to say being ignorant is like denying your own existence in this physical world which is very wrong, no energy already there can disappear, your physical body holds power in this universe no matter how much you hate yourself and want to disappear, you have value and that value was given to you by the Universe


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## Malandro (Jul 17, 2014)

bruh said:


> I just want to say being ignorant is like denying your own existence in this physical world which is very wrong, no energy already there can disappear, your physical body holds power in this universe no matter how much you hate yourself and want to disappear, you have value and that value was given to you by the Universe


Why does that sound like a quote from End of Evangelion?


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

bruh said:


> you have value and that value was given to you by the Universe


That strikes me as fucked up though I'm struggling to put it into words. 

Forced value.


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## bruh (Oct 27, 2015)

Distortions said:


> That strikes me as fucked up though I'm struggling to put it into words.
> 
> Forced value.


Hmm? What is forced about physics?


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## bruh (Oct 27, 2015)

sharlzkidarlz said:


> Why does that sound like a quote from End of Evangelion?


Because you've probably watched the movie


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

bruh said:


> Hmm? What is forced about physics?


Well, did you pay attention to your own words, or did you just write something random that sounded deep?


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Distortions said:


> Well, did you pay attention to your own words, or did you just write something random that sounded deep?


The way I interpret what he said is that we all have value by virtue of existing and being able to accomplish things/have an impact on the world, so ignoring our problems and refusing to take action is somehow a denial of that presence and capability (?). And we must own our personal power or something.


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## bruh (Oct 27, 2015)

Distortions said:


> Well, did you pay attention to your own words, or did you just write something random that sounded deep?


We both looking confused. I think Night Huntress explained my point better than me :3


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## Masterpiece (Jul 17, 2016)

Okay, I'm just going to clarify something here -- this isn't meant to be a type 9 bash thread; I was just putting into perspective how the _worst_ traits of UNHEALTHY nines tend to play themselves out, as I feel they tend to be overlooked. I've known a number of healthy nines who aren't like this at all, so this definitely doesn't apply to all of them.


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## Elscar (Jul 23, 2016)

Pretty much all the 9's I've known have fit the stereotype of being very accommodating and conflict-avoidant to a point where it's been exhausting to interact with them because they feel so fragile and scared. It's nice to know, though it's not new information for me, that not all 9's are like that. Also, the 9's I've been closest to have shared similar instinctual stackings (so/sp & sp/so) which could have something to do with their more stereotypical behavior of their type.


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## psyche (Jan 5, 2011)

I know it's not a shame type, but I do think a lot of the less fortunate behavior has something to do with believing you don't deserve very much, deep down. A lot of people (fairly) compare bringing up a conflict with a 9 to banging on a wall, but I think 9's feel the effects of the wall themselves. Imagine taking every legitimate desire you feel and both repressing that _and_ erecting a wall that will keep out anyone trying to pull you out of your shell... Maybe it seems like a silly thing to do, but maybe the person feels like if they didn't do it themselves, someone else would knock them down first. And maybe even that seems silly because, hey, just fight back, but if it's so deeply ingrained in you that you have to be a rock or you can't rock the boat, that is just going to seem to require an enormous reservoir of energy you don't even really feel the capacity to acknowledge, much less use.

With all that said, though, I know it all sucks. That's why it's so important to integrate to 3, you can't really call yourself humble or easygoing if you don't recognize that you have value, so that you can utilize those traits. You can't be a peacemaker if you don't step up to the plate and help to settle differences or put others at ease.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

Masterpiece said:


> Okay, I'm just going to clarify something here -- this isn't meant to be a type 9 bash thread; I was just putting into perspective how the _worst_ traits of UNHEALTHY nines tend to play themselves out, as I feel they tend to be overlooked. I've known a number of healthy nines who aren't like this at all, so this definitely doesn't apply to all of them.


 Like night and day! I feel a little bad for being so negative, so I'm going to try to balance out my previous portrayal a little bit.

Healthy nines are more likely to be able to tell the difference between "peace"/"harmony" and "apathy". If there's ever a party or group event, healthy nines definitely understand who would harmonize well with whom, and they would be able to figure out the most optimal seating arrangement to suit a variety of people, where everyone was always in close proximity to at least one other person they knew and got along well with.

Unhealthy nines are not as likely to notice the awkwardness resulting from the huge clashes of familiarity. While it's expected that we're mostly meeting strangers at public events, the fact that we're at the event means we have something in common. For unhealthy nines, there's not as much sensitivity to the degrees of separation/connection people have with other, so they either wouldn't notice or acknowledge the awkwardness in a party with a group of people who already know each other + people who don't know anyone else there.

Unhealthy nines take advantage of other's desires to have healthy, functional relationships, and then preemptively, passive-aggressively hold the relationship hostage whenever anything goes wrong. Combined with the silent treatment, they can be quite emotionally abusive. They set relationships up to fail, dangle others along, and then place the blame on others when the relationship finally crumbles. When people start to notice and react negatively, _that_ is used as justification for the unhealthy nine's decisions. They might say something like, "I didn't want to cooperate, because I knew you'd act like this". They would never consider the possibility that other people _wouldn't_ react like that if they _did_ cooperate in the first place.

Healthy nines are like everyone's BFFs. It seems like e_veryone_ wants to be their friend! As they get older, they _still_ have their relationships from high school, college, from volunteer activities, work places over the years, etc. And when they have so many friends already, what's one missing person? During those times when I don't feel great and withdraw, my healthy nine BFF would actually notice and contact me. *feels loved* :crying: Healthy nines are more willing to admit that things didn't work out because they were being assholes or that they didn't uphold their end of the bargain. When they feel like they're being taken for granted, they're more likely to be honest and upfront about the stipulations over the extra chances they're giving, and then follow through with cutting off a toxic relationship if it doesn't improve.

At the end of the day though, I think most nines are probably somewhere in the average range, and not in the extremes that are illustrated here. Healthy nines actually *are* patient. Unhealthy nines are so impatient they never gave you a chance to work things out in the first place. I feel like unhealthy nines approach life like, "one bad apple spoils the whole bunch", whereas healthy nines would actually pick the rotten apple out.


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## sometimes (Dec 26, 2013)

sharlzkidarlz said:


> This is literally what my mum does. 18 years of that bullshit XD
> 
> (Oh no, I'm that one who brings up their mum... Ah well)


Haha don't worry. 

It's what my ex boyfriend used to do. Not sure how many other 9's do it too. But I can imagine unhealthy 9's doing it to some degree or another.

Unhealthy 9 behaviour or 9's being assholes is basically passive aggressive/covertly aggressive behaviour which can actually worse/more damaging than overtly aggressive behaviour because you it's harder to know what's going on and in some cases make you think you're to blame whilst not realising what they're doing/it's effects.


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## No_this_is_patrick (Jun 27, 2016)

I'm glad someone was able to put this in words better than I can. I totally agree. It is a little known fact that nines can be the biggest assholes in the world. My younger sister is a 9w8 sp/sx and although I love hanging out with her on neutral territory, she can be a huuuuge asshole. Territorial, selfish, prone to rage, and certainly passive aggressive. She will agree to do things to shut you up and then blow you off last minute. (tbf, I've actually witnessed this in other sp types as well.) She will completely cut family members out of her life if she thinks they wronged her in some way. Extremely stubborn and actually does not really give a shit about other people at all. She puts on a happy face and acts nice and sweet but seriously wouldn't care if most people disappeared from the face of the earth.


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## inabox (Oct 3, 2015)

No_this_is_patrick said:


> I'm glad someone was able to put this in words better than I can. I totally agree. It is a little known fact that nines can be the biggest assholes in the world. My younger sister is a 9w8 sp/sx and although I love hanging out with her on neutral territory, she can be a huuuuge asshole. Territorial, selfish, prone to rage, and certainly passive aggressive. She will agree to do things to shut you up and then blow you off last minute. (tbf, I've actually witnessed this in other sp types as well.) She will completely cut family members out of her life if she thinks they wronged her in some way. Extremely stubborn and actually does not really give a shit about other people at all. She puts on a happy face and acts nice and sweet but seriously wouldn't care if most people disappeared from the face of the earth.


(LOL HOMG I laughed when you talked about the sp habit of ditching people and hey, isn't your sister an SEI? I love that they can be people who are extremely nice to your face but wouldn't give a fuck if you died in a fire XD ... which can also interestingly enough be a 9ish quality and I should know I have a strong so w9 )


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## Masterpiece (Jul 17, 2016)

psyche said:


> I know it's not a shame type, but I do think a lot of the less fortunate behavior has something to do with believing you don't deserve very much, deep down.


Yes, I agree. The core belief of nines is that love is ultimately conditional, and it is due to this belief that they had come to the conclusion that if they _were_ to truly be themselves, they would never be loved. Thus they have learned from a young age to erase their own individuality in order to mold themselves into another's identity (thus the merging). After all, if you were to merge with another's identity, you will never have to worry about standing on opposing ends with them, as it is impossible for us to stand opposed to our _own_ identity. But why do nines fear standing on opposing ends with others in the first place? I theorize that the reason _is_ the very fact that they had spend so much of their lives merging with others. They had become so accustomed to merging with another's identity, that they had forgotten to take a stance in their own, therefore when the time comes for them to stand opposed to others, they just can't do it. Standing opposed to others requires us to be in full possession of our _own_ individuality, as we are then pushing it against the opponent's. However, it is in these moments that nines find that they don't _have_ an individuality to possess; as it has been erased over a lifetime of molding and merging. I believe this is the root cause of their fear of conflict, not merely because they want to 'keep the peace' or whatever; it runs far deeper than that.

It's kind of like a vicious cycle, in a way; they believe love is conditional, so they undermine their own identities in order to meet the requirements for superficial love via merging, and the merging ends up undermining even _more_ of their own identities, which causes their fear of separation to intensify as they grow further and further away from their own identities, which urges them to merge even _more_.  

The interesting thing is, all of this would make nines seem like a 'weak' type. Hell, even the 9's holy idea -- "Holy Love", seemed weak and codependent to me at first. But then when you think about it, those 'asshole' tendencies of theirs that I mentioned are actually products of this very innocent belief itself.

Also, at first, the other types may appear more......'respectable', as their core motivations seem more driven and self-focused in comparison; while the 9's core fear and motivation are basically about losing themselves to meet the requirements of surface-level love; much less driven. But if you think about it this way, the other types are actually much more likely to fall harder due to their drives not being met/core fears being triggered, and it is precisely _because_ they are self-focused. While 9s on the other hand.....it's like they have nothing to lose. Whatever they're currently comfortably clinging onto gets removed from their grasp and....they just retreat into their state of peaceful apathy, which would, at the moment, probably be just as comfortable to them as whatever they were clinging onto mere seconds ago.

Either way, it's an interesting perspective to consider. Type 9 sure does fascinate me.


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## Stellafera (Jan 19, 2015)

Masterpiece said:


> Yes, I agree. The core belief of nines is that love is ultimately conditional, and it is due to this belief that they had come to the conclusion that if they _were_ to truly be themselves, they would never be loved.


Maybe I misunderstand the type, but I thought this was more 2's thing? 

_We can look at pride (as each of the passions) as a compensation for a perceived lack of value which goes hand-in-hand with an obscuration of the sense of one’s being—the natural, original, and truest support for one’s sense of personal value. - Naranjo_​


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

@Stellafera : In enneagram theory, "all types are variations of type nine". Therefore, the conditional love problem applies to all of the types, but on its own, especially more so for type nine. Two's variation of this focus concerns their self-value: if other people love the two, then the two is worthy of love.

[HR][/HR]
I _totally_ agree and think what you're saying is accurate. Now I'm going to react and point out how the underlying assumptions for type nine can cause conflict...



Masterpiece said:


> After all, if you were to merge with another's identity, you will never have to worry about standing on opposing ends with them, as it is impossible for us to stand opposed to our _own_ identity.


 I know this is the underlying assumption, and I've also seen type threes employ a very similar strategy. "Standing opposed to our own identity" is part of the underlying shame problem in type threes, and thus "self-deception" was born. It starts with self-deception, and then it spreads to deceiving others.

Body types have a preoccupation with boundaries, and type nine's boundaries are fuzzy, almost nonexistent. Type eight likes strong boundaries, and hmm... I wonder if that has anything to do with a corresponding fear of being violated. In order for nines to "merge" with me, either I have to let my guard down or they would have to violate my boundaries. Nines, healthy and unhealthy, *can* tell whether my guard is up or not. The strategy of unhealthy nines and unhealthy threes *is* boundary violation. When interacting with me, I've seen _both_ types do the "why are you so guarded? I'm harmless" tactic that I've seen attributed to sixes.

Let's say I let my guard down and allowed a nine to "merge" with me. This opens me up to one of type eight's fundamental fears of betrayal, because betrayal is just heart crushing. Let's say I'm either too dumb or too foolhardy and continued to put my guard down and continued to allow them to merge with me. Eventually, after the final detachment, while I feel incredibly heart-broken about a failing relationship, I managed to get a _lot_ of information about the nine's internal world, the "inner peace" fantasy-land they escape to. (And from threes, the things they are ashamed about.)

Merging is bi-directional. Other than easy, conflict-free, perfect relationships where the nines can be rewarded without having to do anything on their ends, I'm still unsure what else nines are trying to get by merging, but I know what I can get: their weaknesses. Type eight's dominant defensive mechanism is "denial", and I can use the merging to find the things the nine is in denial about. Hint: the things they are in denial about have _extra_ levels of numbness and disconnection from reality. Eight and nine are adjacently in the same triad, so our defensive mechanisms will have areas of overlap and similarities. I use the heart-broken emotions from the constant betrayals to fuel my memory rewrites. Eventually I get _tired_ of feeling heart-broken and that's when the numbness sets in. 

Moral of the story: *boundaries are important and should be respected*. In addition, my image fix is 3w4. *I* don't react very well to attempts to counterfeit my identity or "identity theft", and I tend to have these kinds of problems from other threes.



> It's kind of like a vicious cycle, in a way; they believe love is conditional, so they undermine their own identities in order to meet the requirements for superficial love via merging, and the merging ends up undermining even _more_ of their own identities, which causes their fear of separation to intensify as they grow further and further away from their own identities, which urges them to merge even _more_.


 There's also a current of resentment when nines undermine their own identity. I mean, yes, there's "fear of separation", but it's nowhere near the amount of the anger and resentment that comes from not being recognized as their own individual. Above all else, nines numb awareness to their own anger, which then leads to even more merging, which leads to even more resentment... until they explode.

Threes, on the other hand, "undermine their own identities in order to meet the requirements for superficial love". If they meet that requirement, then they are valuable (basic desire); if they don't, then they are worthless (basic fear). They feel shame that their "real selves" are not valuable, so they undermine their own identity (induce deception) to get value, but the disconnect between their false selves and their real selves further induce shame, so they further undermine their own identity to get value, which further induces shame, etc.

"Fear of loss/separation/fragmentation" could apply to "from others" (type six's fear), "from their true selves" (type three's fear), or both (type nine's fear). Loss/separation/fragmentation are also ways to say "disintegrate" or "become less whole". "Integrate" means "to become whole" (type nine's basic desire).



> But if you think about it this way, the other types are actually much more likely to fall harder due to their drives not being met/core fears being triggered, and it is precisely _because_ they are self-focused.


 No risk, no reward. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. 

Falling comes with picking myself up again. The more I fall, the more experience I get from picking myself up again. Eventually the consequences of falling become so manageable that I can even land on my feet and bounce back up, and so apathy/an internal deadening sets in.

I'll fall, but I'll live.



> While 9s on the other hand.....it's like they have nothing to lose. Whatever they're currently comfortably clinging onto gets removed from their grasp and....they just retreat into their state of peaceful apathy, which would, at the moment, probably be just as comfortable to them as whatever they were clinging onto mere seconds ago.


 Their inner peace isn't that peaceful because there's a tension that comes from their needs/desires being unmet. Nines have needs/desires; they just do their best to repress their own awareness of them, and with it, the discontent from having those needs/desires unmet... which means they _unconsciously_ try to get what they need/want. Unconscious. Nines represent "how we fall asleep to ourselves". This is why there's often a stark contrast between what outside observers see them doing, and what the nines themselves will admit to doing.

Threes want inner peace so that they can live with themselves.


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## Vivid Melody (Apr 25, 2011)

Ha, I enjoyed reading that  Interesting though because I never believed that type 9's were inherently selfless by nature. I always saw some of those passive behaviors as...passive aggressive as others are saying. Or yes, sometimes just selfish in general. 



> And I know fives are seen as the masters of emotional detachment. But the thing is, unhealthy nines don't just detach, they become genuinely apathetic. There's a difference. Fives wouldn't like to admit it, but internally they do care. They do care about their stance in the world, they are afraid of the effects the world may have on them, so they detach on purpose. And as long as they're afraid, it means that they are not fundamentally apathetic at their core, no matter how much they may try to disengage from their environment. They purposefully isolate themselves behind glass walls and view their external environment through it, while they obsessively obtain knowledge so that they can remain safely behind it. Yes, they are greedy when it comes to obtaining knowledge, but again, this means that they are not fundamentally apathetic; this greed creates a drive within them, a motivation to perform self-voluntary actions independent of external effects. Unhealthy nines, on the other hand, are easily swayed by their external environment. But why would I say this when I had just said that they refuse to be affected by the external world? It's here that we should know something: Being swayed by their environment doesn't come from a place of willingness; it comes from a place of apathy. They are easily swayed because they can't be bothered enough to have a firm stance of their own; all the conflict that comes with having one just isn't worth the sacrifice of their peaceful state. And as long as they remain apathetic at their core, their external environment will never truly affect them on a fundamental level, despite them going along with the 'currents'. This is where their accommodating demeanor comes from, and while you may think of it as pleasant as first, you should be reminded that the driving force behind it is apathy. And it rears it's ugly side when you need them to actually care.


I got a little confused by this part because I thought every type had a core fear...type 9 being the fear of loss and separation; of annihilation. So by your line of reasoning, if fear is part of what makes someone NOT apathetic, then....wouldn't none of the types be truly apathetic? Or did you mean something else? Maybe they are less aware of their fears because they tune out of reality a lot?

That being said, I'm definitely no stranger to how type 9's don't seem to care about certain concrete consequences or rather, believe they will become a reality. Their attitude can sometimes seem like "meh" (at least on the outside). The irony is that the less you act and withdraw from another person (in trying to avoid conflict), the more it is likely to happen anyway but in a worse way. So it's sort of becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

Where there is fear, there is actually not much room to love someone, in my opinion. And I've tried to tell my type 9 brother this before when he gets afraid of approaching me because he thinks I'm going to be mad at him about A, B or C (in reality, I'm not mad at all, just trying to help and connect). I always just try to draw him out and make him feel safe/secure so he knows it'll be fine. I don't mean harm. I just want us to have a relationship. All in all, I feel this reassurance has done a world of good for our relationship (we are close). Just usually I'm the one that has to initiate and that's fine. It's just the way it is. Well, I'm on a tangent now so I'll end this here.


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## Masterpiece (Jul 17, 2016)

Vivid Melody said:


> I got a little confused by this part because I thought every type had a core fear...type 9 being the fear of loss and separation; of annihilation. So by your line of reasoning, if fear is part of what makes someone NOT apathetic, then....wouldn't none of the types be truly apathetic? Or did you mean something else? Maybe they are less aware of their fears because they tune out of reality a lot?


I do think you have a point about none of the types being truly apathetic. After all, to be truly apathetic would be indicative of a personality disorder, rather than type. 

However, it this context, at least, I don't exactly see core fears as literal fears; I see them as defense mechanisms -- something so deeply ingrained within our psyches that it doesn't work as a 'fear' anymore; instead it becomes the natural way we operate, our inner coding. So the five's 'fear' that I had spoken of is actually a _part_ of their defense mechanism, rather than their defense mechanism, or core fear, itself. At least, that's the way I see it.

The product of the nine's defense mechanism, on the other hand, is apathy. Of course, nines can be afraid too; but apathy is _a part_ of their inner coding, they (the unhealthy ones, at least) _have_ to remain apathetic to an extent, as it's in their inner coding to disengage to avoid loss and separation (their core fear); when we engage, we are constantly changing; our pace becomes inconsistent, we jump from one action to another in accordance to what our 'awaken' minds tells us to, thus loss and separation happens due to all that inconsistency. But if you don't engage, your mind sorts of go to 'sleep', so your actions are no longer switching constantly in accordance to it -- you either stay constantly at one spot or get caught in a rhythm -- either way, everything becomes consistent. Thus loss and separation cannot happen.

This is where the 9's "apathy" originates from; their disengagement. And this disengagement is a central part to the way their defense mechanism works in an attempt to defend them from what it fears itself; loss and separation. In the same way, the 5's fear is a central part to the way their defense mechanism works in an attempt to defend them from what it fears; being helpless and inadequate. This fear _drives_ them to _actively disengage on purpose_, whilst obsessively obtaining knowledge and clinging on to it, so that they won't have to fall into the pool of helplessness. In other words, fear becomes a driving force for them.

And of course, none of the types are truly apathetic _at their core_, as their defense mechanisms would then cease to exist. (I probably should have phrased it better in my first post).


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

Masterpiece said:


> The product of the nine's defense mechanism, on the other hand, is apathy. Of course, nines can be afraid too; but apathy is _a part_ of their inner coding, they (the unhealthy ones, at least) _have_ to remain apathetic to an extent, as it's in their inner coding to disengage to avoid loss and separation (their core fear); *when we engage, we are constantly changing; our pace becomes inconsistent, we jump from one action to another in accordance to what our 'awaken' minds tells us to, thus loss and separation happens due to all that inconsistency.* But if you don't engage, your mind sorts of go to 'sleep', so your actions are no longer switching constantly in accordance to it -- you either stay constantly at one spot or get caught in a rhythm -- either way, everything becomes consistent. Thus loss and separation cannot happen.


 HOLY LAW SHOUT-OUT!!! OMG SOMEONE GETS IT!!! *cries in happiness*



Almaas said:


> There are three ways in which we can understand the Holy Idea of ennea-type Three, and so it has three names: Holy Harmony, Holy Law, and Holy Hope. As we will see, all of these aspects of the Holy Idea are interrelated. Here again is Ichazo’s definition: “The awareness that there are no exceptions to the natural laws which govern the Cosmos, and that these laws are completely objective, operating as an interconnected unity. The highest law is the totality of Reality itself. Certitude in the objectivity and total applicability of those laws is true hope.”
> 
> *To understand what this means, we need to see that this Holy Idea is about functioning, meaning that it deals with activity, events, changes, transformations, movements, processes, the passage of time, and so on. In other words, this is the main Idea on the Enneagram that can help us understand how changes and movement actually happen.*


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## compulsiverambler (Jan 7, 2010)

A lot of insightful points and interesting perspectives here, but a lot of the interpretation of the emotion and intention behind those behaviours is wrong in my opinion and personal experience. 

I won't go through them all right now, no time, but just picking one: 

I like the observation that we dislike obligation more than most, but not the interpretation of related behaviour. Hating obligation doesn't mean we don't want to do favours asked of us or chores we're reminded of, it just means we want them to *feel* like favours or jobs we're helpfully reminded of. Resentment and stubbornness comes when the request or reminder feels accusatory. 

I am very prone to hearing "could you ____ please" as "why haven't you already ______, obviously you were not going to do it if I didn't say anything, lazy bum". My idea of which jobs are time-critical and how long they can wait is different to most people I've lived with, so most of the time I hadn't even forgotten or the considerate action had indeed occurred to me already. I have been sometimes explicitly accused of not intending to do things out of laziness, or (the ultimate insult to me personally, because I have always been PAINFULLY compassionate and extremely generous in helping others I don't even know a lot of the time and seeing it as not just its own reward but something I'm compelled to do by painful emotions) lack of caring about other people. It becomes an accusation you're always looking out for when anyone outside of a work or educational context asks you to do anything, slightly paranoid even. I perceive the person as thinking me a lazy, untrustworthy burden from not just clear nagging, but any wording or tone of voice that's pressing, pleading or buttering-up. Those are what you do when you don't trust someone. 

I instead want to be asked or reminded of something in a light, breezy manner that communicates something like "just checking you weren't going to forget and have to do it late at night again, haha". If instead I feel judged and distrusted by the requestor, I'll delay partly out of annoyance but mostly because doing it immediately would make it look like they were right that I was trying to get away with not doing it. If I did it immediately when they asked, I'd make myself look like someone guilty who just got caught being lazy, plus I'd feel like a slave jumping to their every whim. So I delay even more with "yeah I'm gonna do it later". What I'm trying to indicate in a non-confrontational manner is that I really did intend to do it, I already knew, I didn't need to be asked again, and I'm not lazy. 

Unfortunately, I will admit, this doesn't work, and when they get angry or accusatory all because from my Perceiving Nine perspective they are needlessly uptight about *when* a minor task gets done (including some 9s, like my ISFJ Nine mum), I'll eventually refuse to do it at all which just makes them even more sure I never intended to do it or that I want any excuse not to. I actually had to sit down with two people and explain all of this and have them explain their perception of what kept happening so that all sides could finally understand the motives of each other and we could devise new ways of communicating and organising chores to prevent further arguments.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

compulsiverambler said:


> *I am very prone to hearing* "could you ____ please" as "why haven't you already ______, obviously you were not going to do it if I didn't say anything, lazy bum".





> *I perceive* the person as thinking me a lazy, untrustworthy burden from not just clear nagging, but any wording or tone of voice that's pressing, pleading or buttering-up. *Those are what you do when you don't trust someone.*





> *If instead I feel judged and distrusted by the requestor*, I'll delay partly out of annoyance but mostly because doing it immediately would make it look like they were right that I was trying to get away with not doing it.


 Yeah, no one can control how you interpret things, and no one can control how you feel. If you don't already trust that person, then you have every incentive to perceive others as judging and distrusting you. As a third-party observer, meaning in conflicts that I have no involvement in, people like you will choose to perceive/interpret/twist what, to me, was a simple, reasonable request delivered in a reasonable manner as further justification as to why you will delay.



> *My idea* of which jobs are *time-critical and how long they can wait* *is different to most people* I've lived with,





> *I instead want* to be asked or *reminded* of something in a light, breezy manner that communicates something like "just checking you weren't going to forget and have to do it late at night again, haha".





> If I did it immediately when they asked, I'd make myself look like someone guilty who just got caught being lazy, plus I'd feel like a slave jumping to *their every whim.*


 But instead, you're subjecting others to your whims, your feelings and suspicions, and forcing them to comply with _your_ idea of what's time-critical. 

What if something is time-critical _for them_? And when they have to involve you or someone like you, keeping them anxiously hanging in silence, without any follow up, is actively damaging their trust in you.

In my case, things did have deadlines, and the people I had to go through prevented me from making those deadlines, all due to their whims. And when I got pissed and confronted them about it, it turns out "they were busy doing other things" or "they forgot" even though I tried to get periodic updates from them, which they ignored and didn't respond to.



> It becomes an accusation you're always looking out for when anyone outside of a work or educational context asks you to do anything, slightly paranoid even.


 In educational contexts, particular in project-based classes, I complain to fellow team members and then an authority figure with documented evidence that someone wasn't doing what they were supposed to be doing, which is holding the rest of the team up, in order to be allowed to either split the team or get those individuals replaced by someone else.

For school projects, the professors could give specifications, and the unhealthy nine members will *never* follow the specifications and won't fix their approach even after the professors talked to them about it. Keeping them on the team will just lower everyone's grades. When the professors allowed the team to be split, they definitely ended up failing the class!

If we're stuck with them, the team members who want to do the project correctly, cooperatively, and successfully have to do the uncooperative member's parts as well because the uncooperative member's contributions are completely useless. When I did their parts, I get even more pissed because what took them a month to barely get working, I managed to get working in one day. What the hell? Under shitty professors who don't give a fuck about intra-team-conflicts, it kind of sucks that the uncooperative team member gets a good grade from literally everyone else's efforts.

In work contexts, it's still infuriating, but at least it's possible to get them fired if they continually refuse to cooperate. Thank fucking god!

Seems like, outside of professional settings, there's this assumption that there's nothing at stake and that's being taken for granted. If they make cooperating with them excessively difficult, then likewise, I won't cooperate with them either. Thank goodness it's a big world out there and there are plenty of others to work with.


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## compulsiverambler (Jan 7, 2010)

cir said:


> Yeah, no one can control how you interpret things, and no one can control how you feel. If you don't already trust that person, then you have every incentive to perceive others as judging and distrusting you. As a third-party observer, meaning in conflicts that I have no involvement in, people like you will choose to perceive/interpret/twist what, to me, was a simple, reasonable request delivered in a reasonable manner as further justification as to why you will delay.
> 
> But instead, you're subjecting others to your whims, your feelings and suspicions, and forcing them to comply with _your_ idea of what's time-critical.
> 
> What if something is time-critical _for them_? And when they have to involve you or someone like you, keeping them anxiously hanging in silence, without any follow up, is actively damaging their trust in you.


There's a strong parallel here. You would perceive my claim that I feel judged by the request as *just an excuse* to delay because I already wanted to delay, rather than as the reason I delay in the first place. In the same way, before having that discussion I mentioned that got everything out in the open, I perceived those people's claims that they really felt it ought to be done sooner as j*ust an excuse* to nag or control me because they already liked nagging and controlling me, or as *just an excuse* to watch me do it there and then because they didn't trust I'd do it by the time I said I would. 

Things got a lot better when both sides agreed that although they were never going to understand why I felt genuinely offended by what *they perceived* as innocently delivered requests, and I was never going to understand why they felt genuinely distressed at the idea of the task not getting done within what what *I perceived* as an arbitrary time-frame, we were all going to do the courtesy of believing each other and respecting those feelings, rather than assuming they must be mere excuses because they seemed so ridiculous to us.



cir said:


> In educational contexts, particular in project-based classes, I complain to fellow team members and then an authority figure with documented evidence that someone wasn't doing what they were supposed to be doing, which is holding the rest of the team up, in order to be allowed to either split the team or get those individuals replaced by someone else.
> 
> For school projects, the professors could give specifications, and the unhealthy nine members will *never* follow the specifications and won't fix their approach even after the professors talked to them about it. Keeping them on the team will just lower everyone's grades. When the professors allowed the team to be split, they definitely ended up failing the class!
> 
> ...


Well as I said, the thoughts and motives I described only apply to settings *outside of* work and education. Meaning, I never feel the same way about requests at work or school. So none of that has any relevance to me. 

I don't know what was going on with those people, could be Enneagram 9 thought processes like the ones I described but it could also be many things other than Enneagram-related psychology. For example, you could be confusing Enneagram Nine with untreated ADD/ADHD. I have/am both, and behaviourally they might look the same but as someone with both I can assure you the causes of the behaviour are very different: the former is psychological, actively deciding that something doesn't need to be done yet, and Ritalin will make no difference (many of these arguments at home happened while I was medicated, because it was all Enneagram 9 stuff I described above rather than the ADHD). The latter is neuro-cognitive, preventing concentration and organisation even though the person might desperately WANT to concentrate and be organised right now, and Ritalin will make such a drastic difference you wouldn't recognise the person (e.g. my problems getting schoolwork done pre-treatment completely disappeared once I got Ritalin, so I went from an underachiever and university drop-out to, to if-I-do-say-so-myself, a consistently brilliant IT student who aced everything and whom everyone in the class wanted to work with and/or cheat from. I had work stolen by three different students, lol)


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