# What can change the nature of a man? (NF variant)



## Brainfreeze_237 (Oct 31, 2010)

This is a mirror thread of this, and is inspired by the game Planescape: Torment, one of the greatest artistic and philosophical masterpieces in gaming to date.

The title is true to the original form of the question, but I'd ask the same question here as I do in the sister NT mirror thread: *What can change the nature of a person?
*
Discuss in any framework you want, whether spiritual, artistic, metaphysical, philosophical, psychological or *gasp!* scientific. Or, _especially_, personal.

If the question seems too broad at first, try focusing on individual stories as a starting point; specifically, personal stories of meaningful change and enlightenment, the circumstances in which they arose and occurred, how the whole situation progressed, how you've gained *wisdom* and learned lessons from it, etc... 
Has anything changed your own nature, shaken you to the core so as to make you a person radically different from who you were before? If so, what was it?

if you have any stories, that is roud: If you're fresh out, I'd settle for thoughts and opinions on the issue, but try to be as expansive as you can in your explanations; I, at least, _am_ interested, and I _will_ read through it.

Disclaimer: Trolls, listen up! This is the NF variant, where I'm hoping a deeper, and as a result more emotionally charged discussion can develop, unlike the NT variant, where people are much less sensitive (if you think that's typism, I dare you to participate in a thread with either of the NTPs, and see for yourselves). As such, I won't hesitate to dispense righteous and merciless NT judgment. I mention this because a previous thread got wrecked, and I wouldn't want that to happen here.

It's a big question, and an important question.


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## Antipode (Jul 8, 2012)

Everything about the nature of man can be changed through will: forced choices; however, time will always change the nature of a person regardless of will, restraint, and negligence. It's all in due time. I guess the better question would be: how much room is there for a person to change?


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## Brainfreeze_237 (Oct 31, 2010)

Disappointing. 

I'd have expected this place to be a lot more active than the other one. Instead, it ends up with the amount of richness, content and emotional significance closely resembling that of my love life. Here's an explanation for the oh-so-complex comparative metaphor:











Oh well.

PS: no offense, @Crono91, but your reply doesn't really adress anything, not meaningfully anyway.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Brainfreeze_237 said:


> Disappointing.
> 
> I'd have expected this place to be a lot more active than the other one. Instead, it ends up with the amount of richness, content and emotional significance closely resembling that of my love life. Here's an explanation for the oh-so-complex comparative metaphor:
> 
> ...


Maybe you would get better responses if you left out the defensiveness and elitism.


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## Brainfreeze_237 (Oct 31, 2010)

Promethea said:


> Maybe you would get better responses if you left out the defensiveness and elitism.


Defensiveness? Whoah. That part was supposed to be a joke at my own expense. As for the elitism... I'm a bit lost.

edit: actually, no wait, I see what you mean. I think. Yeah, maybe I see how it would come off that way. My bad.

My cynical "charm" is all wrong that way. And it _did_ take the only INFP I know about a month to answer the question to his satisfaction, so...


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## Antipode (Jul 8, 2012)

Psh--how dare you haha--I don't answer to bluntly express a meaningful response--I answer to suggest a meaningful response. It's up to other people to take of it of what they will. 

Change is but a term of negativity or positivity. What you do with that word, and how you plan to have it influence yourself is only a choice. And that is what change is: a choice. There isn't much more to it. Now people can force change on others--but the victim must decide to accept such a change, or neglect it: if they decide the later, then usually a mask is placed upon their face. (I could go more into that, but then I'd be too blunt ^_^)

But I think another interesting question, in regards to yours, is how much a person can actually change. Is there a limit? A formula? Or are there not any rules to it?


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## Zero_Origin (Sep 29, 2010)

Well, the kind of processes/events that are necessary for someone to undergo a dramatic change are usually of an intensely personal nature so I wouldn’t expect many people to post their stories on an open thread (maybe via a PM if they know and trust you).

So, some brief thoughts and opinions I have for how someone can change include:

*More Abrupt*
Sickness/Near Death Experience/Loss of Loved One: There’s nothing like a brush with death to force you to examine how you’ve lived your life thus far. For someone who’s been living largely unconsciously it can be a major wake up call that spurs them to consider if they want to continue living the remainder of their days (which may now seem potentially shorter and more fragile than before) in the same manner they were prior to the incident. Generally speaking, someone can become much more appreciative of the little things in life through such an experience, as well as possibly altering their life pursuits to be more in line which their authentic self, rather than merely jumping through societies hoops. You only got one life to live (maybe), might as well live it well and truly.

Spiritual Emergence/Emergency: I’m not going to explain this one in detail, but you can google the terms if you’re intrigued. Basically, some people end up having a spontaneous spiritual experience (including some who were not formerly religious/spiritual) that opens them up to the possibility of greater meaning and purpose in life that involves uniting themselves to a felt higher power/force. However, if someone has a lot of psychological baggage going into the experience then it can create a number of complications that have to be worked through before a positive change can come about.


*More Gradual *
Psychological Work: Depth/Analytic/Transpersonal/Positive Psychology can bring about change in people’s lives over time by identifying “Shadow” elements in the psyche and working on releasing old emotional wounds as well working on finding healthy lifestyle changes/options etc. etc.

Spiritual (not necessarily Theistic) Practice: Meditation, contemplation, intensive yoga, and other practices that can be actively incorporated into someone’s lifestyle can effect observable changes in brain structure and (therefore) mood/behavior/character. The key word here though is _practice_. You get out of it what you put in, and a lot of people don't have the time to put enough in.


I would write a lot more about the gradual stuff, but this post is already getting long. Hope this was interesting/helpful. Let me know if you have any further questions.


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## Brainfreeze_237 (Oct 31, 2010)

Crono91 said:


> Psh--how dare you haha--I don't answer to bluntly express a meaningful response--I answer to suggest a meaningful response. It's up to other people to take of it of what they will.



Subtle as always :laughing:



> Change is but a term of negativity or positivity. What you do with that word, and how you plan to have it influence yourself is only a choice. And that is what change is: a choice. There isn't much more to it. Now people can force change on others--but the victim must decide to accept such a change, or neglect it: if they decide the later, then usually a mask is placed upon their face. (I could go more into that, but then I'd be too blunt ^_^)


Now this is much better, and I share some of your viewpoints. Perhaps we only differ on this, where I think interaction _with,_ instead of merely being the subject _of_, outside forces, can and does inevitably elicit change.

As for the "blunt" part, maybe @ZeRo Origin is right, and we should continue this one in private.



> But I think another interesting question, in regards to yours, is how much a person can actually change. Is there a limit? A formula? Or are there not any rules to it?


Now we're talking! This is _precisely_ what I'm hoping to learn.



Zero_Origin said:


> Well, the kind of processes/events that are necessary for someone to undergo a dramatic change are usually of an intensely personal nature so I wouldn’t expect many people to post their stories on an open thread (maybe via a PM if they know and trust you).


You're right about that; I mean, I was aware of that, but I didn't actually put sufficient serious thought and consideration into that, despite being a bit of a privacy nut myself :shocked:



> So, some brief thoughts and opinions I have for how someone can change include:
> 
> *More Abrupt*
> Sickness/Near Death Experience/Loss of Loved One: There’s nothing like a brush with death to force you to examine how you’ve lived your life thus far. For someone who’s been living largely unconsciously it can be a major wake up call that spurs them to consider if they want to continue living the remainder of their days (which may now seem potentially shorter and more fragile than before) in the same manner they were prior to the incident. Generally speaking, someone can become much more appreciative of the little things in life through such an experience, as well as possibly altering their life pursuits to be more in line which their authentic self, rather than merely jumping through societies hoops. You only got one life to live (maybe), might as well live it well and truly.


This is what naturally comes to mind when one considers the question, yes.



> Spiritual Emergence/Emergency: I’m not going to explain this one in detail, but you can google the terms if you’re intrigued. Basically, some people end up having a spontaneous spiritual experience (including some who were not formerly religious/spiritual) that opens them up to the possibility of greater meaning and purpose in life that involves uniting themselves to a felt higher power/force. However, if someone has a lot of psychological baggage going into the experience then it can create a number of complications that have to be worked through before a positive change can come about.


This is the part I'm most interested in personally, since I'm under the impression that I've at least begun this process. To be honest, it is _precisely_ this which made me intrigued, or rather fascinated, by the question itself.

It's also exactly why I thought posting this in the NF section mmight be a good idea.



> *More Gradual *
> Psychological Work: Depth/Analytic/Transpersonal/Positive Psychology can bring about change in people’s lives over time by identifying “Shadow” elements in the psyche and working on releasing old emotional wounds as well working on finding healthy lifestyle changes/options etc. etc.
> 
> Spiritual (not necessarily Theistic) Practice: Meditation, contemplation, intensive yoga, and other practices that can be actively incorporated into someone’s lifestyle can effect observable changes in brain structure and (therefore) mood/behavior/character. The key word here though is _practice_. You get out of it what you put in, and a lot of people don't have the time to put enough in.


This is the most prevalent form, I believe, and the most widely-known. And I hear what you're saying about practice being key, and I agree; however, what if one becomes stuck in a loop? "Garbage-in, garbage-out"?



> I would write a lot more about the gradual stuff, but this post is already getting long. Hope this was interesting/helpful. Let me know if you have any further questions.


It was, and I don't personally mind long posts, quite the contrary; you should see some of my older ones if you thought this was long :laughing: I swear, I sometimes _do not know_ when to stop.

Of course I have questions! I _always_ have questions :laughing:

However, I'm obsessing over the point you made about these things being private, so I'm a bit hesitant about that.


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## Agape (Jan 22, 2012)

Best story in a game btw...PST is really a masterpiece of storytelling . This is out of topic but if you like it..I recommend an old computer game called The longest journey..it is not as epic as PST but the story is very immersing...a good experience.

My response will be a bit unusual. I have been studying for the past year the essence of reality. I have always wanted to see things not as they appear to be but as they truly are. Nothing can actually change the nature of man. By man here I refer to the part of you that feels, think, remember and process information. What science calls consciousness and others refers as spirit, soul,etc.

Do the world happens in you or you happen in the world?. One of the biggest illusion of all time is that there exist an outside world or that reality is objective. All the information you receive through your senses is molded through the lens of perception that are shape by your culture, past experiences and set of believes. Because of that all reality is subjective. Even if two people see the same thing with their eyes, they will process that information in a different way. So what was objective became subjective.

You don't are a human, you are a consciousness having a human experience. Imagine that life itself is like the projection of a movie. No matter how much the pictures on the reflector changes, the light will stay the same. The same analogy can be applied to a paper and a pencil. No matter how much you write in a paper, the basic structure of the paper remain the same. This also happens to consciousness, to what you are in essence. Consciousness like everything else evolves and growth but what it is in essence..stays the same.


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## Brainfreeze_237 (Oct 31, 2010)

Agape said:


> Best story in a game btw...PST is really a masterpiece of storytelling . This is out of topic but if you like it..I recommend an old computer game called The longest journey..it is not as epic as PST but the story is very immersing...a good experience.


I'll check it out, thanks for the heads-up.



> My response will be a bit unusual. I have been studying for the past year the essence of reality. I have always wanted to see things not as they appear to be but as they truly are.


Heh :laughing: I can relate, and I had those thoughts too, not too long ago. Check out what happened _here_ when it came to reality, objective and subjective truths. That has to be one of _the_ most awesome threads the INTPs have produced.



> Nothing can actually change the nature of man. By man here I refer to the part of you that feels, think, remember and process information. What science calls consciousness and others refers as spirit, soul,etc.
> 
> Do the world happens in you or you happen in the world?. One of the biggest illusion of all time is that there exist an outside world or that reality is objective. All the information you receive through your senses is molded through the lens of perception that are shape by your culture, past experiences and set of believes. Because of that all reality is subjective. Even if two people see the same thing with their eyes, they will process that information in a different way. So what was objective became subjective.


Unusual? What's "usual"? :tongue: Especially when it comes to a question like this...

Concerning the "consciousness/spirit" part, I found some interesting talks or mini-lectures on _precisely_ this: perception and information processing by our "conscious self", or whatever you want to call it, in the other thread, riiight here. I've a hunch they might interest you. They're a bit long though, if you intend to watch them all together; best to consume them in small chunks, one by one. They're useful and worth it, though, especially if you're interested in this... "problem".



> You don't are a human, you are a consciousness having a human experience. Imagine that life itself is like the projection of a movie. No matter how much the pictures on the reflector changes, the light will stay the same. The same analogy can be applied to a paper and a pencil. No matter how much you write in a paper, the basic structure of the paper remain the same. This also happens to consciousness, to what you are in essence. Consciousness like everything else evolves and growth but what it is in essence..stays the same.


That's an interesting analogy, and I had similar thoughts myself. I'm actually somewhere along the middle between all of this: "personal evolution with an unchanging core" or, if you prefer "deterministic personality development" and "relativistic personality development". Couldn't resist using those terms :laughing:

I guess, to focus the question a bit more, I'd ask this: what _drives_ it? What _triggers_ it?


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## AstralSoldier (Jun 18, 2012)

Brainfreeze_237 said:


> This is a mirror thread of this, and is inspired by the game Planescape: Torment, one of the greatest artistic and philosophical masterpieces in gaming to date.
> 
> The title is true to the original form of the question, but I'd ask the same question here as I do in the sister NT mirror thread: *What can change the nature of a person? *


What can change the nature of a person? I'm glad you asked Brainfreeze; Off the top of my head, I'd say any form of psychological/emotional trauma that challenges a person's abilities to cope with based on their limited personal resources; this would include witnessing a murder, the constant knock-down dragouts of domestic violence, emotional abuse and neglect, being forced to raise yourself in a home of two adults where neither adult has the ability to understand how to raise children with love, acceptance, and security. This can turn the nature of a person if the person hasn't found either an internal means of coping, or an external way out to cope.

Ever since the age of 4, dissociation is how I dealt with my home life, and it kept me protected from the full awareness of my childhood; it has altered my entire emotional/psychological experience and to date, I currently have an EXTREMELY limited amount of memories regarding my past. Mind bending flashbacks of experiences of having to watch something you can't fully wrap your mind around, such as domestic violence by a cocaine-induced raging father, watching and hearing screams from your mother in the next room, and being powerless to do anything about it can change you at 4 years old; it can completely DESTROY any sense of security you have in the world. In God, in anything. No one came to our rescue, so I'm not interested in hearing about a God who watches over everyone, and loves us all equally; where is THAT in practice, when every night, we were fighting for our lives and sleep and sanity? Where is God when children starve to death, or husbands abuse their wives, and wives abuse their husbands, and children; we're fighting the good fight ALONE often with no counsel or aid.

The constant neglect, and emotional torture of having to come to terms with having to raise yourself, deal with poor social skills because you're ignored at home, and having to survive on your own in a war zone internally, and externally can change you, growing up in aggression, anger, and hate can change you. Constant exposure to a lack of security mentally, emotional, and physically can change you. Not having a moments peace can change you by altering you ability to self-regulate your emotions and come out of a state of chronic/permanent anxiety. Having to repress parts of your personality from emerging because of the fear of abuse, or abandonment can change you. Now all this being said, how do YOU think this can change a person if all these things were to happen concurrently? Saying it would 'change' you is an understatement; even saying it devastates you doesn't do it justice.

In short, when the basic needs of a person are frequently and consistently NOT met, it changes them on a profound level. They can become sociopaths, and their empathy may never entirely form, and they may never learn to connect to human experience to feel love, joy, sympathy; when you abuse a person, they grow angry, and vengeful, and withdrawn; they repress their emotions, and learn to survive by ANY means necessary. Holding onto years of anger, and vengeance can warp a person's mind horribly, and they may only learn to see other people as potential targets to exploit for their gain. 

So, what are the things my life has taught me? Let's list them:

1.)The only wisdom I gained is to never fully trust/turn my back to anyone.

2.)I learned that I can psychologically 'cut off' and anesthetize my psychological pain/emotions and separate them from my conscious awareness. There's no time to suffer or cry when you're father and mother are at each others throats. You're feelings no longer matter, only coming up with a rational plan to help to kill the conflict is all that matters. Sometimes you have to watch them slug it out, and just go upstairs, and not give a damn.

3.)I'm less emotional than any NT I've ever run across, and extremely sharp and rational to the point of being callous, when needed. Rationality is how I learned to survive; cut off my emotions to survive the insanity of a home life that was beyond reason.

4.)I learned that this pain I carry in another part of my mind is expressed as dissociated self-states, upon which I'm unconscious/unaware of. 

5.)The only wisdom I gained from all of this is there isn't a logical reason short of personal benefit/gain to bother myself with helping someone else.

The human race can go fuck itself to oblivion for all I care; I won't lift a finger for another person, and would step over a burning corpse if it meant getting that bag of cash next to them. I prefer the cash, and my ideas, to people which aren't really needed in my life; I've gotten over feeling lonely, and prefer to be alone. There are no heroes, there's no real ethics used by the majority of humanity, just people trying to get by if even at the expense of others. That's all there is. I don't believe in God, as it's a concept for those who were protected in life, not forced to fend for themselves...I laugh at the concept inside, but if people need something to cling to to make sense of the bad times in life, and to keep them from morally bottoming out, by all means, have at it.

I still do believe however that there is some good in people, I just don't care to deal with them aside from gaining any knowledge/wisdom in a subject I need. I have the option of having children and trying to do what is morally/emotional correct for them, and that is really a shaky issue in itself because I may not be able to have children.

This is what changes the nature of a man. This is what can fracture a personality and make an innocent child become a man overnight.


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## AphroditeGoneAwry (Jan 10, 2012)

Trauma.

Love.

God.


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