# INFJ-Myers Briggs => ENFj-Ni Socionics ?



## westlose (Oct 9, 2014)

Hi everyone,

So, I am new to socionics, and got some weird results.
I am INFJ (Mbti) and 4w5 (Enneagramm). I know that we cannot always make correlations between different patterns.

Well, I'am pretty sure about my Mbti and ennagramm type, like 99,9%. But I cannot say that I am IEI so easily.
So I tryed some tests, and got some weird results. The first time I get ISFp, then INFp. 
I guess the ISFp is a really bad result. But I get ENFj a lot of times, and I am struggling between IEI and EIE now.

ENFj seem to be a good result, because i got it like 5 times in a row on this website : Socionics Tests



> Test Results
> 
> Your Sociotype: EIE-1Ni (ENFj)


EIE-Ni, I guess Fe Ni, but with a preference for Ni. I guess it could work, I am INFJ after all.

My question is : Is it possible to be extraverted on Socionics, and introverted in Myers Briggs ?
It sounds really weird, but i dunno why, the EIE description fits me more than the IEI one.

I saw some correlations graphs between both Socionics and MBTI, and never saw INFJ => EIE.
So I am wondering. What do you guys think ?

*EDIT :* Hmm, i just saw "cyamitide" links on the post above. So I guess I'll take a look. But I will not refuse some help


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## Hiemal (Jan 5, 2014)

Would you say that you as a person are devoted toward affecting people emotionally? Do you always need to be producing an effect out of the people around you, or at least be making a difference to them? Is understanding people through noticing their tendencies and rhythms psychologically something you do _for the sole purpose_ (i.e., you only do this because) of being able to use that information to affect others? Or, do you simply just want to understand people on a deeper level, where actually affecting them and causing change is more subdued in favor of the simple observation of people's psychology and internal rhythms?


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## westlose (Oct 9, 2014)

> Would you say that you as a person are devoted toward affecting people emotionally?


Exactly ! 100% true. That's why I am trying to make art. I want to affect people emotionally, like it affects me when I am listening to music, or watching a beautiful drawing. I don't want to live in a world full of robots, life is funnier full of colours and emotions. Being in a silent room makes me really sad. Like I said it before, I am enneagram 4, so I really need tons of emotions to feel good. And well, I also want to show people something unique, and give them my willpower.



> Do you always need to be producing an effect out of the people around you, or at least be making a difference to them?


Yea it's true. For the same reasons. There are so much things we can change in the world. And we can really affect other people. I am always trying to change my environnement, because I feel useful that way. I want to change my destiny, and I don't want to be overwhelmed by the world.



> Is understanding people through noticing their tendencies and rhythms psychologically something you do for the sole purpose (i.e., you only do this because) of being able to use that information to affect others?


Hmm well. It's more like I try to find their strengths and weaknesses. That's why I love all these personality tests, enneagram, Myers Briggs and Socionics. I value knowledge. I want to know how people works, because that's how I can act to affect them. Knowing their weaknesses allows me to help them growing. Same for their strengths, I can help them finding their purpose and perks. I can also use their weaknesses to hurt them / manipulate them, but well it's only if they are my ennemies.



> Or, do you simply just want to understand people on a deeper level, where actually affecting them and causing change is more subdued in favor of the simple observation of people's psychology and internal rhythms?


No, I dont try to understand people only for that. If I am doing this, It's because I need to understand them to act correctly. 
People are really as complexe as the universe (I think). They are all similars and different. So I have always something to learn. And I think that it is my only way to be useful. I know that I have affected some people a lot, and I felt really proud. I love teaching people stuffs. 
So yea, I feel like I am doing this for active purpose, not only for the knowledge.

Anyway, thank you for your reply, I hope my english isn't too bad this time.


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## Hiemal (Jan 5, 2014)

westlose said:


> Exactly ! 100% true. That's why I am trying to make art. I want to affect people emotionally, like it affects me when I am listening to music, or watching a beautiful drawing. I don't want to live in a world full of robots, life is funnier full of colours and emotions. Being in a silent room makes me really sad. Like I said it before, I am enneagram 4, so I really need tons of emotions to feel good. And well, I also want to show people something unique, and give them my willpower.
> 
> 
> Yea it's true. For the same reasons. There are so much things we can change in the world. And we can really affect other people. I am always trying to change my environnement, because I feel useful that way. I want to change my destiny, and I don't want to be overwhelmed by the world.
> ...


According to the information displayed here, you are an EIE, or, at the very minimum, a Fe Leading type. 

EIE care about understanding people and how they function only if it allows them to affect them in some way (emotionally or other). Perception is a slave to taking action.

IEI care about understanding people and how they function because it allows them to have deeper perceptions into human nature and the ongoing situation; they could care less about actually putting forth effort to affect people, but they will if they must.

If we were to convert this back to the other system (which I will say is inferior to Socionics), it would translate to ENFJ (assuming the Jungian Anarchic System or Jungian Cognitive Functions, and not, say, Kiersey or Myers-Briggs Dichotomies).


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## westlose (Oct 9, 2014)

Hmm... Well I may be a mistyped INFJ in Myers Briggs too. An unhealthy Extrovert i guess ? It's really possible.



> which I will say is inferior to Socionics


Yeah, Now that I am learning more about Socionics, MBTI seems ridiculous.
So much confusion in I/E and T/F.

Thanks a lot Hiemal for your help !


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

westlose said:


> Hmm... Well I may be a mistyped INFJ in Myers Briggs too. An unhealthy Extrovert i guess ? It's really possible.


Not necessarily. Socionics is built around information elements and not functions. This means that when you are focused on some kind of extroverted information (Se, Ne, Te, Fe), then you are an extra_tim_. This extratim is deliberate to distinguish it from what is otherwise generally known as extroverted, i.e. a social extrovert in the popular sense.

We can take an example. Imagine a person that is hard-working, schedules their day and loves to fix, tinker and maintain his or her house. This is in socionics extroverted since the main information element is Te (paired with Si). So in socionics this person is an extratim, but since this imaginary person prefers to much rather maintain his or her house, starting new projects surrounding it and so fourth, than to socialize, this person can easily qualify as an introvert in MBTI.


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## GnothiSeauton (Sep 11, 2011)

Inguz said:


> Not necessarily. Socionics is built around information elements and not functions. This means that when you are focused on some kind of extroverted information (Se, Ne, Te, Fe), then you are an extra_tim_. This extratim is deliberate to distinguish it from what is otherwise generally known as extroverted, i.e. a social extrovert in the popular sense.
> 
> We can take an example. Imagine a person that is hard-working, schedules their day and loves to fix, tinker and maintain his or her house. This is in socionics extroverted since the main information element is Te (paired with Si). So in socionics this person is an extratim, but since this imaginary person prefers to much rather maintain his or her house, starting new projects surrounding it and so fourth, than to socialize, this person can easily qualify as an introvert in MBTI.


This is pretty much what happens with me, expect I don't like to tinker with my house 

MBTI automatically equals cognitive extroversion with socialization, and while there's probably some amount of correlation between the two, it doesn't look like a very sound assumption to make. If I, as an extratim, am looking for information external to the self, I'll pick up a book and read it. There's no need for me to interact with anyone else while I'm doing it. Obviously I still need to interact with people after a while, but my preference definitely lies on introverted types of activities.

I think introversion/extroversion is a really interesting dichotomy, especially as it seems to be the most recognized and well-understood in the 4-letter code. When it comes to it though, the Big 5 and actual scientific _research _are much more insightful than MBTI or even Socionics IMO.


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## ruskiix (Sep 28, 2013)

westlose said:


> Hmm... Well I may be a mistyped INFJ in Myers Briggs too. An unhealthy Extrovert i guess ? It's really possible.
> 
> 
> Yeah, Now that I am learning more about Socionics, MBTI seems ridiculous.
> ...


Your responses above about needing to create art to me just sounded like a type 4 xNFJ to me. I just now started poking around in the socionics section after someone reminded me that I don't match the INFJ "translation" (IEI?). Looking at basically every description of the type or the concepts of the different types (quadras, etc) and relationships, just _anything_, I'm absolutely 100% EII--INFj. Even though I'm definitely also a Myers Briggs INFJ. But the differences in the two seem to reeeaaally sync up with what I consider my enneagram 1 habits.

The extroverted vs. introverted descriptions from the other posters sound like what I always used instinctual variants to explain. Extroverts who mostly stay home alone and introverts who socialize a lot. I always just thought of it more as self-preservation extroverts or social introverts, or something along those lines.


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## Pancreatic Pandora (Aug 16, 2013)

GnothiSeauton said:


> I think introversion/extroversion is a really interesting dichotomy, especially as it seems to be the most recognized and well-understood in the 4-letter code. When it comes to it though, the Big 5 and actual scientific _research _are much more insightful than MBTI or even Socionics IMO.


Jungian I/E, which holds kind of weak links to MBTI's I/E and moderate to strong ones with Socionics, is worlds apart from the Big 5 though. They are different things.


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## Gentleman (Jun 14, 2014)

ruskiix said:


> Looking at basically every description of the type or the concepts of the different types (quadras, etc) and relationships, just _anything_, I'm absolutely 100% EII--INFj. Even though I'm definitely also a Myers Briggs INFJ.


So it's possible to completely change your functional makeup when switching between the two systems?

This is confusing, because if you're the Ni-Fe type (MBTI INFJ/IEI) then your dual is the Se-Ti type (MBTI ESTP/SLE) and your conflictor is the Te-Si type (MBTI ESTJ/LSE). If you're the Fi-Ne type (MBTI INFP/EII) then the Se-Ti type (MBTI ESTP/SLE) is your conflictor, and your dual is the Te-Si type (MBTI ESTJ/LSE).


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## ruskiix (Sep 28, 2013)

Stampede said:


> So it's possible to completely change your functional makeup when switching between the two systems?
> 
> This is confusing, because if you're the Ni-Fe type (MBTI INFJ/IEI) then your dual is the Se-Ti type (MBTI ESTP/SLE) and your conflictor is the Te-Si type (MBTI ESTJ/LSE). If you're the Fi-Ne type (MBTI INFP/EII) then the Se-Ti type (MBTI ESTP/SLE) is your conflictor, and your dual is the Te-Si type (MBTI ESTJ/LSE).


Sort of. The functions are defined a bit differently. So depending on how and _why _you're an MBTI INFJ, you could fit some other type in Socionics because of the differences. But it's not like your functions are actually different. I actually had a 99% match with LII on the socionics test, while I'm right on the T/F line between INFJ and INTJ in MBTI. But IEI was only a 75% match.


I mean, in Myers Briggs, the INFJ functions just mean that you pick up on and understand emotional/human things easily, and you constantly analyze systems of people and can't really turn that off. Which can fit IEI _and_ EII, I think, but the difference seems to be what you do with the information. To me, it seems like IEI would be a Myers Briggs INFJ who acts mostly on Fe, while an EII would be a Myers Briggs INFJ who acts mostly on Ni. Nothing about INFJ says you have to be emotionally expressive or reserved. Most descriptions are a little half and half.


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## GnothiSeauton (Sep 11, 2011)

Pancreatic Pandora said:


> Jungian I/E, which holds kind of weak links to MBTI's I/E and moderate to strong ones with Socionics, is worlds apart from the Big 5 though. They are different things.


I admit I haven't looked into that. I surely will.



> I mean, in Myers Briggs, the INFJ functions just mean that you pick up on and understand emotional/human things easily, and you constantly analyze systems of people and can't really turn that off. Which can fit IEI and EII, I think, but the difference seems to be what you do with the information. To me, it seems like IEI would be a Myers Briggs INFJ who acts mostly on Fe, while an EII would be a Myers Briggs INFJ who acts mostly on Ni. Nothing about INFJ says you have to be emotionally expressive or reserved. Most descriptions are a little half and half.


I'm not sure how much that would work from a theoretical standpoint though. I think it all boils down to MBTI and JCF being developed as parallel systems which got sorta tied into one another, without much backing up. MBTI is originally about dychotomies, JCF is about cognitive functions, which is similar in scope to Socionics which is based on information elements. You may say that INFJ and EII can be similar in character, based on descriptions, but how does that work when you consider cognitive functions? What is the correspondence? There doesn't seem to be much consensus around that.

That being said, I'm not trying to say you're wrong about your self-typings or anything. Your point about sp extroverts is interesting, I can't seem to observe many besides myself.


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## Gentleman (Jun 14, 2014)

@ruskiix So I could potentially be an ISTP in MBTI?

This shit is so fucked up.


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## ruskiix (Sep 28, 2013)

GnothiSeauton said:


> I'm not sure how much that would work from a theoretical standpoint though. I think it all boils down to MBTI and JCF being developed as parallel systems which got sorta tied into one another, without much backing up. MBTI is originally about dychotomies, JCF is about cognitive functions, which is similar in scope to Socionics which is based on information elements. You may say that INFJ and EII can be similar in character, based on descriptions, but how does that work when you consider cognitive functions? What is the correspondence? There doesn't seem to be much consensus around that.
> 
> That being said, I'm not trying to say you're wrong about your self-typings or anything. Your point about sp extroverts is interesting, I can't seem to observe many besides myself.


The biggest thing is that Fi honestly isn't even kind of the same thing in socionics and MBTI. And that's the main difference between EII and IEI.

Fi description:

_"EIIs are very attuned to *the psychological atmosphere of interaction* and to their own feelings towards people and things. They treasure deep feelings of attachment and *strive to deepen emotional bonds between people* and harmonize relationships. When those people that the EII is close to suffer emotionally, the EII will do everything in her power to raise the emotional condition in the individual, often at the EII's expense.

EIIs are very capable of* "sizing people up"*. They rely heavily on *their instincts to understand the inner feelings of an individual*. They are very empathetic people and find it very easy to *feel with others*. This makes them *very sensitive to the moods of people*, and they treat them the way they want to be treated, that is, with respect.

- See more at: http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/types/EII-INFj/#sthash.Mjyn9ufR.dpuf"_

The bolded parts would be Fe in Myers Briggs. I mean those things aren't necessarily incompatible with Myers Briggs Fi, but if you had to sort them, they're definitely more Fe. And the socionics description of Fe seems to be more focused on action--acting to affect the emotions of people around them. Socionics Fi is recognizing and understanding, while Fe is actually getting in there and interacting more directly. I've actually wondered a bit if my shy-ish ENFJ mother would fit as a socionics INFp than ENFj, but haven't gotten around to reading much about it yet. In Myers Briggs, my ENFJ mom and I are both definitely Fe-focused. In socionics, she's more Fe and I'm more Fi.


I just don't see the cognitive functions as really matching up anywhere near enough in the two systems. Maybe with thinking types it's more clear, but Fi/Fe and Ne/Ni are too different to translate cleanly.


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## ruskiix (Sep 28, 2013)

Stampede said:


> @_ruskiix_ So I could potentially be an ISTP in MBTI?
> 
> This shit is so fucked up.


Maybe. I actually went through the rough guesses I have for my friends and family and MBTI types and compared them to socionics. And so far, all of the extroverts were the same type, and most of the introverts that I know were the same type (that is, the last letter wasn't swapped). But I didn't even try to tackle the three ISFPs I know. I think my dad is probably ISFp and my cousin and friend are ISFjs. The two cousins I think are ISFJs I couldn't even begin to guess, though, even though I should know them best. I seem to have trouble getting to know ISFxs beneath the surface.

I don't understand how INFPs are supposed to be socionics EIIs. The INFPs I know all seem to have this dreamy in-their-own-world kind of separation and independence that seems to fit IEI much better.


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## Gentleman (Jun 14, 2014)

ruskiix said:


> I don't understand how INFPs are supposed to be socionics EIIs. The INFPs I know all seem to have this dreamy in-their-own-world kind of separation and independence that seems to fit IEI much better.


Ask @Kink.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

ruskiix said:


> I don't understand how INFPs are supposed to be socionics EIIs. The INFPs I know all seem to have this dreamy in-their-own-world kind of separation and independence that seems to fit IEI much better.


That depends. Why do you think it seems to fit IEI better?


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## ruskiix (Sep 28, 2013)

Kink said:


> That depends. Why do you think it seems to fit IEI better?


Mostly because of the differences between Ni and Ne in socionics. But again, socionics Ni and MBTI Fi to me seem to overlap a ton, and I could just be biased because neither are things I relate to well at all, and the INFP I know best is probably strongest in those two functions. He's extremely creative but you never have any idea what's going to come out of him, or what's going on in there. You can see a ton simmering, it never stops, but it's just completely his own world. He doesn't seem to have any intention to keep people out, I just don't think he would even know how to share it outside of art. And he has an obliviousness that I can kind of relate to, but it's a bit different--I'm very focused on being practical and realistic, and he's more focused on being in the moment. We both suck at everything in the sensing category in general, but we're a little better in those two distinct ways, which seems to match up with EII and IEI differences.

It could just be that I don't know a decent variety of INFPs. I'm mostly going by the one I'm confident about and people I've known in the past who had the same vibe as him, and who I seemed to interact with the same way--I seem to feel like I could totally have a deep intimate conversation with INFPs, but never seem to get around to it. But they're really comfortable to be around and there seems to be a lot of understanding without saying anything, even more than I have with the other INFJs I've met. ISFPs are comfortable to be around too but there doesn't seem to be the same unspoken understanding, and they _feel_ straight-forward even though I eventually realize I've totally underestimated how much they keep hidden and private.


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## Zero11 (Feb 7, 2010)

GnothiSeauton said:


> Obviously I still need to interact with people after a while, but my preference definitely lies on introverted types of activities.


Do you have a need? Or are your forced to interact?


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## GnothiSeauton (Sep 11, 2011)

Zero11 said:


> Do you have a need? Or are your forced to interact?


Well, I'm pretty sure I have a need. But it's weak enough that when people try to drag me into social situations I often feel forced to comply.

For most of my life I wasn't even conscious of this need. My mood gradually worsened for no reason I could identify. I think it's not as much a need for interaction as it is for recognition. When I feel I have this recognition, I'm perfectly happy to go back to my aloof state, for the most part.


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