# Help an INxx Out!



## whisperlumos (Apr 28, 2015)

I'm going to keep this brief. I've been quite heavily into MBTI for the past four years or so, and perhaps I'm taking this way too seriously, but I cannot for the life of me determine which type I am. I started out thinking I was an INTJ for a year or two, before I "converted" to INTP - which is what I've believed I am for a good two years now. However, if I am totally honest with myself, something has always felt just a bit off about it. I'm 99% sure I'm INxx and perhaps 80% sure I'm not an INFP. But I also feel I'm not emotional and caring enough to be an INFJ? Anyway, I thought that instead of just listing self-perceived characteristics, I would ask you all (very kindly) to read a philosophical ramble of mine and see which type "feels" right to you. I'm eighteen years old, by the way, if that's of any help (yes, I realise I'm young).

So, here's a look into my mind:

"Every so often, I am struck by this intense feeling, or sensation rather, of derealisation. It strikes me at the most inopportune times, hands cupping a hot cup of tea or when writing a paper for school. What is it that we're all doing here? What even is this? Reality seems to drop away. Or rather, I seem to drop away, and the world is but a mirage, a dream. Lucid dreaming. When you know you're dreaming, you know that none of it matters anyway. I feel disillusioned. Tricked. And coupled with that indescribable sensation of derealisation, comes a certain dread: Why is it that we do what we do? We go about our daily routine, our tasks and chores, our commitments—but for what? In the end, it is all for naught, right?
These thoughts usually come to me at night, and I can't help but feel that this is when my mind is the clearest, talking to me with candour, when all my barriers are down. It's almost as though the shields my brain has put up to protect me, come down, and in floods the truth, filling me paradoxically with both crippling hopelessness and immense hope. Another metaphor: Your life and your mind, your existence, is a darkened house. There are windows, but they're covered by shutters. There might be a few candles here and there, but they don't illuminate the whole house, and you're left mostly in the dark. You find meaning in the menial tasks you perform in this house, since you don't know any better. At night, however, the someones or somethings holding the shutters in place, get tired, and so the shutters fall away, and in spills the light, the truth. You catch a glimpse of the outside and realise how limited you are in your silly house. It might be warm and comfortable, but when you've realised there's more to life than that humdrum house, it feels almost unbearable. Everything is covered in a thick layer of dust and the miserable linoleum floor (orange and brown) is littered with garbage. The ambiguous outside is tantalising, albeit scary and confusing. (I just realised that this in many ways resembles Plato's cave allegory.) Anyway, when we sleep, the "people" whose job it is to hold the shutters in place, rest with us, and in the morning, they're yet again strong enough to hold the shutters in place for another day, and in the dark again (literally), we return to our ignorance, our routine. Perhaps this is why I feel so englightened now—for lack of sleep?
Putting these feelings and thoughts into text somehow minimalises them, weakens them, as language has the tendency to do with our thoughts and feelings. But I must do it still. It seems important, and there is something rare and palpable about text that cannot be found many other places. 
It seems that most of the time, we do things to avoid something and not to actually accomplish anything. Our thoughts are almost always focused on the things we must avoid. Have you noticed that? We act according to societal norms to avoid rejection, becoming outcasts. We're always afraid of something, that's what it is. Naturally, on the opposite side of this fear, is the thing we we want, but the more I think about it, I realise that I don't really wish for the approval of total strangers or other things of that nature. Not rationally. They're just getting in the way of the things I actually want, cluttering my mind with their incessant primitive babble of fear. 
We walk through life mostly oblivious of why we do the things we do. Because we just have to, we say, defending our petty chores, our narrow, boring routine. We try to acommodate the people around us, become one with the others. That's what life is all about, like it or not. In order to have that hour in front of the television after work, those two weeks of relaxation in the summer, playing beached ways in some warm climate, we must all do this boring stuff 90% of the time. How sick is that! What a cruel game!
And at the end, lying on our deathbed, with a lot of past and an ever-shrinking future, some might feel bitterness, regret, others contentedness—and most will agree upon the fact that those who feel content have somehow won at this thing we call Life. Contentedness? Is that what this will amount to? We look at that clouded, dreamlike (or nightmarish) Past and think, Huh, I did an okay job at this. Not too bad. I'll give myself a pat on the shoulder! Is that all we get? It seems like some kind of sick practical joke, really, and I am certainly not content with that. I feel a bit cheated, and as I'm writing this, I resolve to do something about it. But of course, the shutters might be slammed back in place any moment, and I'll go back to my mostly mindless existence, worrying, doing to avoid and not to accomplish.
I'm also struck by the fleetingness of the present, of the moment. Does the moment even exist? I mean, it seems to me more like this: The past continuously swallowing the future. With each word I write, the past grows larger, the opportunities diminishing. The present doesn't actually exist—it's just the edge of the bloated, and ever-swelling, past.
This is my view of time: We pace the timeline, never able to stop, forced forward by the invisible force called Time, but perhaps able to slow down or speed up (?), very rarely conscious of time itself, the mounting Past and the shrinking Future. Walking through life trying to be as comfortable as possible. Because that's what life is about for most people. Comfort. (Tangent: Comfort?! I for one believe we only have one chance at this thing called Life, and we spend it trying to be as comfortable as possible. What a waste! Or?) Anyway, back to the cloudy Past, the fleeting or perhaps non-existent Present (depending on your view), and the uncertain Future. We go about life, often trying to make time pass, as we wait for something (Waiting for Godot grows with meaning as I write this!), Past mounting, Future shrinking with each passing moment. 
I see the past in two ways: First, the depressing metaphor: the past is a cloudy, not quite palpable substance, tailing us and growing larger with every moment, not quite real, but still there, slowing us down, showing in our grey hair, wrinkled skin, murkiness of our eyes and general decay. Not really a part of us, but still tainting us, altering what we will do in the future. Events that might seems important at the time, wane, becoming one with the cloudy Past, everything flattening, becoming unimportant, monotonous—it's not much in the big picture, people will say, as time passes and that embarrassment they felt when tripping in front of a crowd, no longer makes them cringe—no, I disagree; it has nothing whatsoever to do with "the big picture", instead it has everything to do with the present, the very small picture, the tiniest, most subjective picture possible! Seen clearly, the past is a terrifying thing, and isn't it interesting that it is at night (when your mind is clearest, but also most vulnerable), that your past also becomes clearest, when your daily routine gives way to the truth. You are perhaps filled with regret at those times, cringing at past embarrassments. Our mind protects us against this thing called the Past. If it didn't, we would go insane. Or would we? Isn't it just keeping us in check, stopping us from really seeing things in perspective? Realising with full clearity how oblivious we actually are?
The second, slightly more optimistic metaphor describing the past is as follows: We are born, continuously pacing the timeline, but as we walk, the past doesn't tail us; we swallow the past as we go, like some weird video game (Pac-Man, basically), and it's all about picking out what one wants to include in one's mind. We choose the past by controlling the fleeting present and the uncertain future. Or, the three control each other in a way. It's very confusing. A sort of snowball effect.
Anyway, something else, that to me seems fundamentally wrong: Since we are always doing things to avoid, life is always about maintaining things. Maintaining our health, social circle, family, what have you. As our snowball grows and things get stuck to it (new friends, new hobbies), we fight to keep them all stuck to the damn snowball. Life is essentially about getting a really big snowball. So when the Grim Reaper comes knocking, you'll have something to show for your endavours. I realise how crazy this sounds, but in a general sense, it is very true. 
And those who don't maintain all those things that get stuck to their snowball are frowned upon by society. Those who don't juggle a million balls at once. People who can't keep friends, people who neglect their health and home and garden, and who jump from one thing to another. We tend to think that those who aren't in the business of Maintaining the Different Aspects of Their Life, live a pointless life, nothing ever amounting to anything. But how are the people who maintain any different? Why are we maintaining these things in the first place? To look back on life with contentedness? For fear of that final regret, perhaps? There it is again—fear, permeating ever nook and cranny of our life. There's a sort of desperation to it, a desire to fill every moment with something productive, something that will amount to something, but that never does—and if it does, what does it matter if it doesn't lead to happiness? We are simultaneously trying to pass time and clinging to it with every fibre of our being. 
But why am I bothering with these thoughts? Is it even possible to escape the house that is our humdrum existence? It is the possibility of escape that fills me with hope, but if this isn't possible, I think perhaps I prefer the ignorance and oblivion of the snug, dimly lit house, the safety of small dreams, comfortable warmth and routine. Living with the constant temptation of the grand outside—the drabness of the house harshly contrasted against it—seems almost unbearable in the long run. Perhaps it's time for the shutters to be put back in place so I can return to Maintaining."

Thanks!

- whisperlumos


----------



## Simpson17866 (Dec 3, 2014)

I'm not sure about T/F yet, so I'll have to keep reading this, but the fact that you chose to post this _as a ramble_ instead of trying to tidy it up and make it more focused tells me that you're probably a far stronger Perceiver than you are a Judger, so now we're down to INxP.

Does that sound right?


----------



## whisperlumos (Apr 28, 2015)

Hm, perhaps. But this isn't usually how I write texts; I wrote it in a burst of inspiration a little while ago and never really edited it. Also, can't INxJs appear even more-so on the perceiving side though text due to their Pi functions? 

Thanks for your answer!


----------



## Ermenegildo (Feb 25, 2014)

*I​"Every so often, I am struck by this intense feeling, or sensation rather, of derealisation. *It strikes me at the most inopportune times, hands cupping a hot cup of tea or when writing a paper for school. What is it that we're all doing here? What even is this? Reality seems to drop away. Or rather, I seem to drop away, and the world is but a mirage, a dream. Lucid dreaming. When you know you're dreaming, you know that none of it matters anyway. I feel disillusioned. Tricked. And coupled with that indescribable sensation of derealisation, comes a certain dread: Why is it that we do what we do? We go about our daily routine, our tasks and chores, our commitments—but for what? In the end, it is all for naught, right?

These thoughts usually come to me at night, and I can't help but feel that this is when my mind is the clearest, talking to me with candour, when all my barriers are down. It's almost as though the shields my brain has put up to protect me, come down, and in floods the truth, filling me paradoxically with both crippling hopelessness and immense hope. Another metaphor: Your life and your mind, your existence, is a darkened house. There are windows, but they're covered by shutters. There might be a few candles here and there, but they don't illuminate the whole house, and you're left mostly in the dark. 

You find meaning in the menial tasks you perform in this house, since you don't know any better. At night, however, the someones or somethings holding the shutters in place, get tired, and so the shutters fall away, and in spills the light, the truth. You catch a glimpse of the outside and realise how limited you are in your silly house. It might be warm and comfortable, but when you've realised there's more to life than that humdrum house, it feels almost unbearable. 

Everything is covered in a thick layer of dust and the miserable linoleum floor (orange and brown) is littered with garbage. The ambiguous outside is tantalising, albeit scary and confusing. (I just realised that this in many ways resembles Plato's cave allegory.) Anyway, when we sleep, the "people" whose job it is to hold the shutters in place, rest with us, and in the morning, they're yet again strong enough to hold the shutters in place for another day, and in the dark again (literally), we return to our ignorance, our routine. Perhaps this is why I feel so enlightened now—for lack of sleep? Putting these feelings and thoughts into text somehow minimalises them, weakens them, as language has the tendency to do with our thoughts and feelings. But I must do it still. It seems important, and there is something rare and palpable about text that cannot be found many other places. 

*II​**
It seems that most of the time, we do things to avoid something* and not to actually accomplish anything. Our thoughts are almost always focused on the things we must avoid. Have you noticed that? We act according to societal norms to avoid rejection, becoming outcasts. We're always afraid of something, that's what it is. Naturally, on the opposite side of this fear, is the thing we we want, but the more I think about it, I realise that I don't really wish for the approval of total strangers or other things of that nature. Not rationally. They're just getting in the way of the things I actually want, cluttering my mind with their incessant primitive babble of fear. 

We walk through life mostly oblivious of why we do the things we do. Because we just have to, we say, defending our petty chores, our narrow, boring routine. We try to accommodate the people around us, become one with the others. That's what life is all about, like it or not. In order to have that hour in front of the television after work, those two weeks of relaxation in the summer, playing beached ways in some warm climate, we must all do this boring stuff 90% of the time. How sick is that! What a cruel game!

And at the end, lying on our deathbed, with a lot of past and an ever-shrinking future, some might feel bitterness, regret, others contentedness—and most will agree upon the fact that those who feel content have somehow won at this thing we call Life. Contentedness? Is that what this will amount to? We look at that clouded, dreamlike (or nightmarish) Past and think, Huh, I did an okay job at this. Not too bad. I'll give myself a pat on the shoulder! Is that all we get? It seems like some kind of sick practical joke, really, and I am certainly not content with that. I feel a bit cheated, and as I'm writing this, I resolve to do something about it. But of course, the shutters might be slammed back in place any moment, and I'll go back to my mostly mindless existence, worrying, doing to avoid and not to accomplish.

*III​
I'm also struck by the fleetingness of the present, of the moment.* Does the moment even exist? I mean, it seems to me more like this: The past continuously swallowing the future. With each word I write, the past grows larger, the opportunities diminishing. The present doesn't actually exist—it's just the edge of the bloated, and ever-swelling, past.

This is my view of time: We pace the timeline, never able to stop, forced forward by the invisible force called Time, but perhaps able to slow down or speed up (?), very rarely conscious of time itself, the mounting Past and the shrinking Future. Walking through life trying to be as comfortable as possible. Because that's what life is about for most people. Comfort. (Tangent: Comfort?! I for one believe we only have one chance at this thing called Life, and we spend it trying to be as comfortable as possible. What a waste! Or?) Anyway, back to the cloudy Past, the fleeting or perhaps non-existent Present (depending on your view), and the uncertain Future. We go about life, often trying to make time pass, as we wait for something (Waiting for Godot grows with meaning as I write this!), Past mounting, Future shrinking with each passing moment. 

I see the past in two ways: First, the depressing metaphor: the past is a cloudy, not quite palpable substance, tailing us and growing larger with every moment, not quite real, but still there, slowing us down, showing in our grey hair, wrinkled skin, murkiness of our eyes and general decay. Not really a part of us, but still tainting us, altering what we will do in the future. Events that might seems important at the time, wane, becoming one with the cloudy Past, everything flattening, becoming unimportant, monotonous—it's not much in the big picture, people will say, as time passes and that embarrassment they felt when tripping in front of a crowd, no longer makes them cringe—no, I disagree; it has nothing whatsoever to do with "the big picture", instead it has everything to do with the present, the very small picture, the tiniest, most subjective picture possible! Seen clearly, the past is a terrifying thing, and isn't it interesting that it is at night (when your mind is clearest, but also most vulnerable), that your past also becomes clearest, when your daily routine gives way to the truth. You are perhaps filled with regret at those times, cringing at past embarrassments. Our mind protects us against this thing called the Past. If it didn't, we would go insane. Or would we? Isn't it just keeping us in check, stopping us from really seeing things in perspective? Realising with full clarity how oblivious we actually are?

The second, slightly more optimistic metaphor describing the past is as follows: We are born, continuously pacing the timeline, but as we walk, the past doesn't tail us; we swallow the past as we go, like some weird video game (Pac-Man, basically), and it's all about picking out what one wants to include in one's mind. We choose the past by controlling the fleeting present and the uncertain future. Or, the three control each other in a way. It's very confusing. A sort of snowball effect.

*IV​
Anyway, something else, that to me seems fundamentally wrong:* Since we are always doing things to avoid, life is always about maintaining things. Maintaining our health, social circle, family, what have you. As our snowball grows and things get stuck to it (new friends, new hobbies), we fight to keep them all stuck to the damn snowball. Life is essentially about getting a really big snowball. So when the Grim Reaper comes knocking, you'll have something to show for your endavours. I realise how crazy this sounds, but in a general sense, it is very true. 

And those who don't maintain all those things that get stuck to their snowball are frowned upon by society. Those who don't juggle a million balls at once. People who can't keep friends, people who neglect their health and home and garden, and who jump from one thing to another. We tend to think that those who aren't in the business of Maintaining the Different Aspects of Their Life, live a pointless life, nothing ever amounting to anything. But how are the people who maintain any different? Why are we maintaining these things in the first place? To look back on life with contentedness? For fear of that final regret, perhaps? There it is again—fear, permeating ever nook and cranny of our life. There's a sort of desperation to it, a desire to fill every moment with something productive, something that will amount to something, but that never does—and if it does, what does it matter if it doesn't lead to happiness? We are simultaneously trying to pass time and clinging to it with every fibre of our being. 










But why am I bothering with these thoughts? Is it even possible to escape the house that is our humdrum existence? It is the possibility of escape that fills me with hope, but if this isn't possible, I think perhaps I prefer the ignorance and oblivion of the snug, dimly lit house, the safety of small dreams, comfortable warmth and routine. Living with the constant temptation of the grand outside—the drabness of the house harshly contrasted against it—seems almost unbearable in the long run. Perhaps it's time for the shutters to be put back in place so I can return to Maintaining."

Thanks!

- whisperlumos


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

@Ermenegildo









Beautiful.







You should take formatting texts professionally. 


@whisperlumos INFP


----------



## whisperlumos (Apr 28, 2015)

Wow! That's beautiful. Thank you for tidying up the mess I posted!


----------



## whisperlumos (Apr 28, 2015)

@Greyhart May I ask what led you to that conclusion?


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

whisperlumos said:


> @Greyhart May I ask what led you to that conclusion?


Lots of Ne rambling but not Ti "systematic" style. Rather spirited and very personal. Could be ENFP too but I didn't notice much Te there. 

Inferior=weak function that is always there as a background nice but one can become too preoccupied with it so it becomes a problem.

For ENxP

* *




These sociotypes always move in the direction of places where there is physical comfort and constancy, pleasant sensations, and cannot deny themselves in this. Where they are physically comfortable, such places are good, even if they are very expensive. Love fine food, massage, rubbing. Having found one place where they feel comfortable, such as a restaurant - could go there for dinner across town. Avoid places which lack all of his needed physical facilities. Food lovers, slaves to their preferences and habits. If they have a sweet tooth, will consume sweets by kilograms. Often determines the state of their physical being by the words of others, easily suggestible by this. Sometimes can try to recreate at home the elements of the place where they felt most comfortable physically. Quickly become accustomed to the "good" and this becomes their weakness in the future - without it they cannot endure. Suggestible by authorities on issues of health - if he is told that he needs to have something treated, he will easily believe it. In this context, can fall prey to "snake oil physicians". May forget to eat on time or to take medicine, to sleep, thus are in need of caring parents or spouses. 

_and ENFP specifically_

The IEE tends to be chronically unaware of his own bodily processes, including physiological sensations and a sense of balance and alignment with one's true desires. He sometimes has peculiar preferences or tastes, which he himself is unable to understand or fulfill. In terms of physical sensations, an IEE will almost always choose the familiar over the novel, because they know that the familiar is reliable in the positive sensation it delivers. An IEE will typically have a single item he orders at certain restaurants without fail; if he isn't in the mood for that item he doesn't eat there. He will stubbornly refuse to eat anything that he knows he does not like, refusing to try a "new recipe" of anything that he did not like before. The IEE would much rather sleep in his own bed than anywhere else as a matter of familiarity, but this preference never enters his mind when a friend invites him to stay the night, sometimes resulting in a lack of quality sleep that the IEE will forget about the next time around. IEEs almost never emphasizes his attractiveness or sexuality overtly and publicly, but dreams of being pleasing to the senses to at least a small circle of trusted friends and partners who are able to develop and enhance his sexuality and attractiveness in a trusting atmosphere. He often will obsess about his looks in front of the mirror, trying to get the right combination of preparedness and liberated comfort. It is embarrassing to come to an event overdressed, as the IEE would rather look like they simply came on a whim rather than over-prepared. They will usually undermine the time spent in preparation and will avoid speaking on the topic altogether. When getting sick, the IEE may stubbornly refuse or "conveniently forget" to take any sort of medicine. Their chosen method of dealing with sickness and physical discomfort is ignoring it until it can no longer be ignored. An IEE will frequently forget meals and sleep when excitedly working on a new project or in some sort of social gathering. Exhaustion, hunger, thirst, and full bladders will be ignored until the need is overwhelming and affects the IEE's concentration.




For IxFPs

* *





This person easily believes in facts and figures, often turn a deaf ear to everything but these. Keeps to places where he knows what to do in every situation. Suggestible by the external order of things, which is often the order that was in place during his upbringing: the political system, social norms, etc. Reacts sensitively to social changes: "God grant you do not live in an era of change." Always moves in the direction of highest order and carefully avoids chaos, is inspired by this order and worries that in future it might change. In this regard, may gravitate towards work in the military, which has the force of statute. It is important to him that the environment is always organized in accordance to rules and laws that he is accustomed to, that this order does not contradict the facts of objective reality. It is also important to know who should be in what position, what needs to be done, what documents must be collected, for what purpose, where they should be submitted, what is the correct way to fill them out. Feels most comfortable in situations where there is only one interpretation of correct action, without any admixture with elements of subjectivity: "in this such case, this should be done". Knowledge of the facts of the situation often replaces true understanding of the underlying problems. Understanding becomes superficial, simply a collection of surface data and statistics, laws and regulations. He does not like long and detailed explanations, will immediately interrupt and say: "So what is this in actuality?". He wants to get a working solution or order right away, not the rationale behind it. For example: "2x2=4." This is an already established rule. Likes terminology, you can sometimes talk to him only using some accepted terms and this will be sufficient. Does not like those who destroy the norms of behavior, for example, those who break the chain of command. Especially gets influenced by the facts that he sees with his own eyes or can touch with own hands. Thus he can fall victim to scams that provide specious claims and facts, especially if the scam is done out in the open ("simple dexterity of hands and no tricks"). 

_And INFPs specifically_

EIIs have a great admiration for people who are able to get things done neatly and efficiently in the outside world. They themselves consistently forget to consider whether their activities are actually achieving their intended goal, whether their time spent is bringing worthy proceeds, and whether their activities are organized in the most rational way. They subconsciously expect and appreciate it when others take interest in the effectiveness of their activities and helps to take an objective look at what they are doing.

EIIs are usually very curious and thirsty for information. When they have an interest in a particular topic or subject, they will try their best to read anything and everything about it in order to gain a thorough understanding.

They are willing to listen to anyone who is knowledgeable or has a brilliant idea to share regardless of whether that individual is an expert or authority in his/her field since they strongly believe that there are many perspectives in an issue.


----------



## whisperlumos (Apr 28, 2015)

@Greyhart

I absolutely see your point. However, the INFP description isn't the best fit for me. I actually struggle very much with values and value-based decisions. I struggle to feel more, not less, and truth has always been of much greater importance to me than values. Could I still be one?


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

Truth is a value.


----------



## whisperlumos (Apr 28, 2015)

@Greyhart

Aren't INTPs known for their "truth at all costs" outlook on life? Where do we draw the line between Thinking and Feeling if not there? As humans, the way in which we interact with the world will inevitably be subjective, regardless of how "rational" you deem yourself. If one values rationality, logic, truth, and careful contemplation over emotions and "gut feelings", wouldn't that make you a thinker? Without a single value (even "truth at all costs"), we wouldn't be able to make decisions at all. Right?


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

Truth is subjective as well. Hmm, this makes me think, though.


* *




Tries to find a place where he is treated well by everybody. If someone expresses negative feelings towards him (for example, in a domestic fight his wife says, "I hate you"), then he takes this literally and tries to get out of there immediately and find another place where he is treated better. Therefore, they find it extremely difficult to be in places where they do not know how others are predisposed towards them. Appearance of someone who readily welcomes them is perceived as "the appearance of Christ to the people." Very suggestible when someone tells him about what relations exist between people. He likes positive emotions of other people, becomes as if charged up by them. Moves in overall direction of prevailing positive tone in emotions and avoids places with negative emotional charge. He does not like intrigue and gossip, feels uneasy in such situations since here he can easily fall victim and be put at a disadvantage. Therefore, he is critical of those who are not direct in communication, who speak in private and not openly, is suspicious of this. Relations between people should always be open, honest, and kind. What is said about one's relations should coincide with one's actions, and if not - then something is wrong. Saying that you love a person it should be demonstrated in action as well, and if your words are not visible - then they are not true. Very suspicious about predisposition of others towards him, suspects some kind of conspiracy. Even if suspicions are due to small detail, he either immediately tries to break off relations with a person or to exclude his or her from his inner circle, reducing contact with them to a minimum. Because of this he can considered a defector - if he finds people who treat him better he may ally with them, finding this a substantial enough argument to change sides. May fall victim to sycophancy. 

or

These people are always moving in the direction of greatest strength, wealth, success, reliability, suggestible by the external form, appearance. They try to live a beautiful life, whatever it costs them. One gets the impression that they always manage to be on the winning side, on the side of the strongest party. If the balance of forces is switched, likewise they will change their direction. Often attracted to strong people. They are easily put into optimistic state of mind if "shaken up" a little - immediately become charged by the received pulse. They constantly try to be in environment where they has a sense of omnipotence: money, power, honor, glory, medals, etc. If they are at the the bottom of social hierarchy, will attempt to climb up by any means necessary. If something is being imposed on them, they are often not able to resist and oppose it, easily suggestible by force. Thus they may act cold, distant and aloof, just in case, as to not fall into such circumstances. A good place for him is where there is some kind of action, active work, turbulent life. He becomes unconsciously "plugged in", involved in it, and then later is surprised to discover himself where he did not expect himself to be. For this reason, they need to be careful not to get involved by chance in some business or project with which he had no desire to have an association. They are very easy pushed into something, moved towards some solution, because these people are easily manipulated by someone's force and suddenly find themselves besides such a person. Often they do not take offense at the sarcastic jokes made in their own address, as they also contain an element of force, may even perceive this as a hidden compliment. Respond to this sarcastically as the situation in principle implies he needs to reply with something for it. However, being drawn to strength and constantly going in the same direction, sooner or later he may actually reach it, and not just try to discover and obtain it. Sometimes they may try to provoke someone to use their force, for example, offer to arrange a tournament in arm wrestling.

I should probably warn that those "wall of text" function descriptions of specific types include negative aspects as well as positive. Every type can fall into "unhealth" so it describes negative tendencies as well.


----------



## whisperlumos (Apr 28, 2015)

@Greyhart

You didn't mention which type was described here.


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

whisperlumos said:


> @Greyhart
> 
> You didn't mention which type was described here.


That's to eliminate prejudice  It's an inferior function description.


----------



## whisperlumos (Apr 28, 2015)

I see. Well, I hardly relate to it at all.


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

whisperlumos said:


> I see. Well, I hardly relate to it at all.


That takes out IxTPs and INxJs.







* *




The individual is attracted to people seen as knowledgeable, as well as truthful and willing to share that knowledge, in matters seen as interesting and useful to the individual towards achieving productivity and efficiency. Reliable information rather than the finished analysis is what attracts the individual; facts and explanations, not answers limited to the conclusions. For the same reason, the individual avoids people who are inclined to give out unreliable or simply untruthful information.

The individual tends to neglect to think about the productivity of his actions and unconsciously relies on others to give him directions and advice about the best, most productive ways of doing things. He has difficulties measuring how much work he has done, whether it is sufficient, and how much it is actually worth. The individual admires people who are aware of the productivity of their actions and are always trying to do something rational and worthwhile.




If that doesn't fit either

* *




These sociotypes always move in the direction of places where there is physical comfort and constancy, pleasant sensations, and cannot deny themselves in this. Where they are physically comfortable, such places are good, even if they are very expensive. Love fine food, massage, rubbing. Having found one place where they feel comfortable, such as a restaurant - could go there for dinner across town. Avoid places which lack all of his needed physical facilities. Food lovers, slaves to their preferences and habits. If they have a sweet tooth, will consume sweets by kilograms. Often determines the state of their physical being by the words of others, easily suggestible by this. Sometimes can try to recreate at home the elements of the place where they felt most comfortable physically. Quickly become accustomed to the "good" and this becomes their weakness in the future - without it they cannot endure. Suggestible by authorities on issues of health - if he is told that he needs to have something treated, he will easily believe it. In this context, can fall prey to "snake oil physicians". May forget to eat on time or to take medicine, to sleep, thus are in need of caring parents or spouses.




If that doesn't fit, what are your thoughts on your type and your weak point?


----------



## whisperlumos (Apr 28, 2015)

@Greyhart

I struggle to see how IxTPs and INxJs would relate to the descriptions you posted of the inferior function. I found the description quite extreme and it seems only to be of relevance to poorly developed IxTPs and INxJs. If I am in fact an INTP (which after careful contemplation and further research I do lean towards), the reason I struggle to decide is because my T/F is very balanced. 

Here I've written why/why not I have Fi as my dominant function. Do you still think I could be an INFP?

In favour of Fi:

- Fi-like interests, such as reading and writing fiction
- finely tuned personal taste and strong attraction to everything that is beautiful
- highly value my personal feelings and prefer to keep them private + express them artistically
- bursts of nostalgia (could just be Si?)
- places subjective value on objects
- can at times be somewhat sensitive to criticism (though usually about for instance my writing, not my personality)
- strive to be authentic

Against Fi:

- generally have difficulty relating to Fi subjects
- repulsed by sentimentality
- pragmatic Fe approach in terms of tragedy -> sickened by people who obsess over a single tragedy (such as a kidnapping case) when much more severe (in terms of numbers) problems are at hand
- truth is incredibly important to me, and dealing with right vs. wrong is of very little interest (Richard Dawkins is one of my favourite people ever)
- I have a tendency to rationalise most everything
- public display of emotion makes me extremely uncomfortable
- prone to unexpected bursts of Fe that humiliate me to no end
- attracted to Nietzsche's amorality + amoral characters in fiction
- I see Te as a greater "enemy" than Fe
- more often than not slightly detached from my emotions, don't feel a strong connection to a certain cause (helping the weak and whatnot)


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

I INTP F/T are _not_ balanced - one is dominant the other is inferior. IxFJ on the other hand has x-Fe-Ti-x which indeed balance each other out. Questionnaire would be useful so I could summon FJ experts.

As for extreme cases - I keep saying it brings up unhealthy tendencies too. This is inferior Te and inferior Si. Neither struck you? Inferior Si description is spot on.


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

I INTP F/T are _not_ balanced - one is dominant the other is inferior. IxFJ on the other hand has x-Fe-Ti-x which indeed balance each other out. Questionnaire would be useful so I could summon FJ experts.

As for extreme cases - I keep saying it brings up unhealthy tendencies too. This is inferior Te and inferior Si. Neither struck you? Inferior Si description is spot on.

P.S. Nietzsche is much more likely Fi INTJ. The philosophy that you find fascinating isn't a type indicator. Also I am beginning to think I actually mistyped INFJ as INFP because of my own prejudice. and laziness

I'll go ahead and bother @alittlebear and @angelcat Sorry gals, I think I've made a grave mistake. Help. :th_woot:


----------



## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

whisperlumos said:


> @Greyhart
> 
> I struggle to see how IxTPs and INxJs would relate to the descriptions you posted of the inferior function. I found the description quite extreme and it seems only to be of relevance to poorly developed IxTPs and INxJs. If I am in fact an INTP (which after careful contemplation and further research I do lean towards), the reason I struggle to decide is because my T/F is very balanced.
> 
> ...


Hmm. What I'm immediately seeing is confusion about the functions (which is okay -- we all start like that, and even the most experienced typers are still learning, but I think it's something that is limiting you a little here). 

For example... (I see quite a few misunderstandings but here are some obvious ones):

- Fi isn't the only one that likes to write and read fiction! Anyone can do that. Some types do it more than others, but still I know quite a few ISTJ writers, and I know ESTJs who _love_ to read. That's not solely an Fi thing  

- Strong attraction to everything that is beautiful? Fi? Fi does that, yes, but I think N, S, and Fe can do that as well. 

- strong reaction to criticism? That's an F thing in general... and obviously a human thing, ha 

- Sentimentality is Si, not Fi. It's especially strong in, say, INFPs, but it's not necessarily an Fi trait. 

- Public display of emotion making you uncomfortable would actually be an Fi thing (or a T thing)... I mean I'm hesitant to say that because even as an Fe dom I feel uncomfortable when someone cries publicly or expresses love inappropriately or something, but I think that disliking public displays of emotion tends to be more Fi. 

- Ha, Fe feels ridiculously tied to altruistic causes. We don't focus on one that is personal to us like Fi (I mean we do, like I'm especially an advocate for people with disabilities and against ableism, but I'm still just as upset by other injustices), but we tend to be very passionate about standing up for people. Fi does this too though, so it's hard to differentiate. 

I'm mostly commenting so I can subscribe to this thread... haven't even read your OP honestly, so I don't know what your type is, but thought I would clear up some of those misunderstandings. I'll be back soon, so hang in there.


----------



## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

whisperlumos said:


> @Oswin
> 
> Thank you for your feedback! I've never considered ISFJ to be an option - I know plenty of ISFJs in real life and I am very, very different from them. I'm very anti-tradition, have very poor memory, and in general have difficulties learning from past experiences. Also, the word "dutiful" would probably be the worst possible word to describe me. But I find it fascinating that you landed on ISFJ.


Well, I'm not sure; I won't try to argue that you are ISFJ if you aren't) But I would at least consider it) I wonder if you could expand on your reasons though. Why are you anti-tradition? What does that mean to you? What do you have a poor memory for? etc. 
I'm trying to think of some good questions to determine if your Ne or Si is higher but I'm blanking. I'm really tired so I think I'll be heading to bed.
The only thing I can think of is, can you do a little analysis on a favorite song/book/show? For instance, say what you like about it, what it means (to you), how you interpret it? That might help a bit, but you don't have to of course.


----------



## whisperlumos (Apr 28, 2015)

@Greyhart

@alittlebear

Did you watch the video? I've been reading some more and generally thinking a lot about typology, and I'm at a complete loss as to what my type is.


----------



## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

I don't think your tags went through: @Greyhart @alittlebear 
Is that better?


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

*I'M SO SORRY I FORGOT.* 










Not FP, not TJ. Not Se or Ne dom. Not Te dom. Fe and Ti likely. I don't see IxTP, I don't think you are Ni & Se. ISFJ is the likeliest. Sounds like Ne kicking in.

About Si and the "tradition" association, if a tradition to be used with Si description _at all_ I would go with "rituals holding importance to the individual" than generic "my grandpa did it and I will do it". I have a very close and dear ISFJ friend. She is a complete geek, anime fan and a gamer. Nothing stuffy or "traditional" about her or her frankly really adorable family.

@angelcat & @hoopla Si experts. If you guys could help here? I could be wrong about Ni vs. Si here.


----------



## whisperlumos (Apr 28, 2015)

@Greyhart

Thank you for your reply! Could you explain what led you to that conclusion? For the past few days, I've genuinely considered ISFJ to be an option, but I really don't relate to it at all. Basically, if I'm an ISFJ, anyone could be. I put very little emphasis on the past in general, having rituals/routine is foreign to me, and I often type people based on hunches (as opposed to sensory details, for instance).


----------



## whisperlumos (Apr 28, 2015)

@Greyhart


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

whisperlumos said:


> @Greyhart
> 
> Thank you for your reply! Could you explain what led you to that conclusion? For the past few days, I've genuinely considered ISFJ to be an option, but I really don't relate to it at all. Basically, if I'm an ISFJ, anyone could be. I put very little emphasis on the past in general, having rituals/routine is foreign to me, and I often type people based on hunches (as opposed to sensory details, for instance).


Did not see level of detachment of Ni or Ti dom. You seem to have level of sensitivity I associate with higher Fe usage. As I said I dislike tradition to be brought into Si dominance at all.

Immediate sensory details would be something I'd associate with Se. Here's a bit from recent posts. I don't have any good Si post bookmark, thus I hope hoopla and angelcat will hear the summon.

Additionally when you said about over the last couple year developing ability to see things from multiple perspectives so much that you can't pick one I'd associate with Ne maturing up which is something NP kinda roll with as default. NP grow Si or Je (Fe/Te) as they age. Si grounds Ne makes it more stable (though, I'm still not there), Fe and Te help communicating with outside world. Fe connect with people, mainly gifts level of conscious diplomacy, Te gives a drive to see their passion to come to reality.

Si is childish/unruly in NPs. It defers from how SJs use it. It's more shallow and immature in NPs.


* *




*Si as activating function of EII (INFP; Dostoevsky) and LII (INTP; Robespierre*

Many of the concerns of people center around issues of health, usefulness / harmfulness, reliability, and this is usually evident. They are often like walking medical guides - know what should be taken and when in the event of sickness. These questions serve as the foundation of their self-esteem, so in these matters they are not afraid to go too far: winter swimming, training, jogging in the morning, drinking specialized products for promotions of health. Often attracted to alternative medicine. Anything that can improve their health holds their interest. They are very weary of the slightest dangers to their physical well-being: when it's cold - they are the first to notice the need to dress warmer. May ask to reduce speed when someone is driving too fast. Any threats to their well-being are unacceptable - even if one screw comes loose they see it as a potential threat to their lives and refuse to move in a way. Always check machinery and equipment for the most trifling reasons. Never confide "packing their parachute" to someone else. If they have any health problems, for them this is a serious blow to self-esteem. In active defense of this function will seek to prove their physical soundness, to be the first to undertake physical hardships (say, the first to carry heavy furniture during community gatherings). In passive defense will say: "Yes, I am old and sick." All that can be used to confirm their physical soundness, will be given priority. So they like to exercise as a way to prove that they are still capable. The most terrible punishment for them is to lay helplessly ill in bed in the presence of other people. They like to be confident in the medical plan of the organization for which they are working. They often become hostages of the word "beneficial" especially if it relates to health. Usually demonstrate a lot of care about social security, debt to the people by the government. They fear of getting into a situation where there is no one around to give a glass of water. To convince themselves that their health is ok, for them it is desirable to periodically somehow "feel" their body strength: hiking, rock climbing, marathons, triathlon, etc. If the test is passed, then their physical well-being is considered to be fine.

*Si as suggestive function in ILE (ENTp; Don Quixote) and IEE (ENFp; Huxley)*

These sociotypes always move in the direction of places where there is physical comfort and constancy, pleasant sensations, and cannot deny themselves in this. Where they are physically comfortable, such places are good, even if they are very expensive. Love fine food, massage, rubbing. Having found one place where they feel comfortable, such as a restaurant - could go there for dinner across town. Avoid places which lack all of his needed physical facilities. Food lovers, slaves to their preferences and habits. If they have a sweet tooth, will consume sweets by kilograms. Often determines the state of their physical being by the words of others, easily suggestible by this. Sometimes can try to recreate at home the elements of the place where they felt most comfortable physically. Quickly become accustomed to the "good" and this becomes their weakness in the future - without it they cannot endure. Suggestible by authorities on issues of health - if he is told that he needs to have something treated, he will easily believe it. In this context, can fall prey to "snake oil physicians". May forget to eat on time or to take medicine, to sleep, thus are in need of caring parents or spouses.




I also took your emphasis on intelligence as tert Ti agenda.

* *





SEIs seek clarity in their system of beliefs and understanding. This can lead to them compulsively questioning or simply having a thirst for gaining knowledge. They are able to read much information on subjects relating to their daily lives, and if questioned on why they read, they would say something akin to "knowledge is power". With this knowledge, the SEI is able to build/edit his/her personal world.

SEIs enjoy entertaining new concepts and being included in philosophical discussions where new concepts and systems of thought are introduced and developed. SEIs are aware that they are somehow limited in discovering knowledge on their own, so they search for catalysts to help them gain it. Finding these modes of learning and communication clarify what the SEI believes in, and fulfills their inner desire. 

_And for both ISFJ and INFJ:_

It is very important for such person to understand everything. If you inquire about some difficult question from him, you may hear that he understands it, but only in a very peculiar way. If he is unable to understand something, it lowers his self-esteem, thus he doesn't like to admit that he hasn't understood something. He enjoys being praised for his logic, likes to boast that he has thought up of something himself. Often likes to refer to some stories from everyday life, because nobody would think of checking their validity. In general, likes to make references to somebody else as a way of protecting his arguments (since then the responsibility for objectivity is passed on to this person). Realizes himself in areas that do not require factual confirmation. In passive self-defense he will admit to not understanding something, call himself stupid, or complain that no one understands him. In active self-defense he will argue that he understands everything correctly. His logic is the logic of common sense and everyday life, so it is difficult to argue with it. Everything that comes into his life must be understood and comprehended. And he, coming into other people's lives, hopes to be understood by them. Afraid to be mistaken in his understanding of something, but on occasion can very easily change his explanation, but so that it is not very conspicuous ("sure crocodiles can fly, but very, very close to the ground"). Worries often and tries to clarify matters of mutual understanding with others, "you did not understand me, I hoped it would be better this way". Wants to be appreciated for his sincerity. 




Or something I wrote in other thread about NPs and SJs in my life.

I could be wrong and you are actually IxxP. I still don't think INTP, though.


----------



## whisperlumos (Apr 28, 2015)

@Greyhart 

Being as young as I am, wouldn't my Ne be relatively immature if it were my auxiliary function (and hardly developed at all if it were my inferior)?


----------



## 68097 (Nov 20, 2013)

Posting this for now; I'll watch the video and then do another post.

It's easier for me to speak in the realm of Ne than Si, but I'll try and mesh them in a way that makes sense.

Everyone assumes that Si-doms/auxes/users need to love the same things, or feel the same way, and that is fundamentally untrue. Si creates a framework within its environment, a "safe happy place" as it were, a coloring of events, that is unique to the individual, and pulled away from what exists around it. What it encounters frames it, but Si takes reality, subverts it, personalizes it, and chooses to keep only what it likes. 

Thus, what you might call your stereotypical ISFJ would be ... a loving wife and mother type, fiercely loyal, totally resistant to change, mostly comfortable with things that are ... eternal, that have been built to last. That's something odd about Si ... it essentially likes knowing that it is a part of something that will last forever; it likes the idea of an epic mythology woven throughout time. Thus, Si respects things that are very old, and the lower Si is in the stack, the more ... romanticized those things become. 

For example, an ENFP friend recently told me about a room in France preserved from WWI after the death of a couple's son. They, when they sold the house, insisted a clause be inserted that nothing be changed about that room -- it was to be immortalized forever in memory of their son. They never cleaned it out. Never moved anything. I sat there, staring at her, as she waxed poetic about the incredible, profound history of that room, and how she hoped that if were ever (tragically) dismantled that they would move the entire thing -- including the wall boards -- into a museum.

Now, I am not opposed to moving it into a museum. I would be all for that. It would certainly make more sense than selling and re-selling a house in which the homeowners are not allowed to touch the room of a dead person they had never even seen. But when it reached the point about removing the actual walls to do it, one of those ENFP "removed from reality, seeing only the raw possibilities" things, I thought: that's nuts. That is not remotely feasible and she has no idea. It's the same intense sentimental "we must keep things as they are" lower-Si that has her preserving things from her family's past, but that are not directly connected to her. That makes her care very much about immortalizing people and remembering them, and tending old sunken graveyards. It's all part of that ... hunger to think we are part of something much bigger than ourselves, an ancient cycle of growth. 

But, back to Si-dom/aux. Much less ... immature about our Si than that, much more aware of reality, while still standing just outside it. As I said, environment influences it, so Si will soak up what it cares about most from its childhood experiences. I have an ISFJ friend, and we're really nothing alike. She very much fits the ISFJ profiles -- loves pictures, and crafting things, and kids, and is resistant to change, and likes to cook and bake and is somewhat gushy, and God forbid you mess with her family, and let's do the same things every year, without fail! And I look at her mom, and she's exactly the same way, so I know where she learned it. And then she comes out to visit me, and it's like night and day. Why are there no photographs on your walls? Eh, we don't care about photographs. Why don't you want to go the same places all the time? Eh, it's boring. Why don't you learn to cook? Why would I want to learn to cook? Don't you want kids? No, not really. She's so much more "relive favorite experiences" Si, and I'm so much more ... mythological, history-inclined Si. 

The kind of Si that cracks open a biography about some monarch from the 1500's and becomes enormously excited, because it's feeding more details I have into this epic internal tapestry of history that I have inside my head. Larger pieces fill in the gaps, and I get a sense of the profoundness of time, and how every monarchy infringed upon another, and what caused them conflict. And my Ne kicks in and romanticizes things, and sees how they could be idealized, and constantly gets bigger, pulling me further and further away from the mundane reality into a fascination with the past and an extensive knowledge of it. 

But for me, personally, I can't explain Si. I can say what it does -- that I hear a subtle tenor in a voice and know who it belongs to, even if it is disguised; that I can recall conversations word for word a decade later; that returning to an item, or a picture, or a song, or a piece of entertainment, or a place, can unlock a vault of memories and spill forth impressions and sensations to go with them. That people are more ... impressions to me, built up over time, than anything tangible, and anything that doesn't match what I have experienced is challenged, questioned, and sometimes rejected, because my own worldview colors every conclusion I make.

Yet, my Si is different from another person's Si. My mythology, my preferred way of seeing reality -- and that's really what it is, a filter against life, is nothing like theirs, but... we both do it. Filter things. Choose things. Personalize things. 

Si is how you wind up with people in intense denial about reality, because they're twisting it to fit a warped impression in their head. I've seen that on a mega level, with an ESFJ who refuses to leave her lout of a husband and her inability to see that he's emotionally isolating her in a very predatory manner, because what she wants from him, what she's projecting onto him, isn't the reality -- and on a much smaller level, with Si users obsessively hording things. 

It's not an easy thing to explain, but ... it's kind of easy to sense in others once you abstractly comprehend it, although it usually takes different forms in most of them.


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

whisperlumos said:


> @Greyhart
> 
> Being as young as I am, wouldn't my Ne be relatively immature if it were my auxiliary function (and hardly developed at all if it were my inferior)?


I don't believe that Ne and Ji in NPs are ever not err equal to your age. They become stronger, mature and powerful as you grow but me and my INFP bff always were Ne & Ji (I knew her since grade 1). With the age I grew out of a-hole-ness, she became more stable and organized (though she struggles with later one). Unfortunately I did not know my ISFJ friend as a kid but she told me that she was a quiet kid who loved to read and draw, and that she was in her head daydreaming more often than not.

As I said I understand that my opinion is subjective but I don't see an INTP.



> Si takes reality, subverts it, personalizes it, and chooses to keep only what it likes.


^Subjective function. It's not about sensory data but about persona interpretation of it.

@angelcat








^Not a sarcasm. I see it in my SJ friends and family but I can't explain it and the "tradition/past/repeat things" shit doesn't cover it because that is not what I see in them.


----------



## whisperlumos (Apr 28, 2015)

All I can say is, I'm not an ISFJ. I got a few family members to read a few type descriptions of the ISFJ and they all agreed that it couldn't be more wrong. In my mother's words (she knows me very well), "this is the opposite of you". Personally, I find the functions to be the most interesting part of MBTI, but it's almost comical how differently they're all defined from one person to the next - and we must all remember that this is a pseudoscience, and even if we go back to Jung, it isn't even close to objective truth. I think I've simply read too much at this point; I'm tempted to give up on typology all together.


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

whisperlumos said:


> All I can say is, I'm not an ISFJ. I got a few family members to read a few type descriptions of the ISFJ and they all agreed that it couldn't be more wrong. In my mother's words (she knows me very well), "this is the opposite of you". Personally, I find the functions to be the most interesting part of MBTI, but *it's almost comical how differently they're all defined from one person to the next* - and we must all remember that this is a pseudoscience, and even if we go back to Jung, it isn't even close to objective truth. I think I've simply read too much at this point; I'm tempted to give up on typology all together.


It's not about what you do it's about why and what motivates you. And yes of course they differ greatly and that's the fun part! Otherwise it would be simply "Now everyone goes into one of 16 groups" and everyone would be like clearly "Yup, I'm XXXX, easy-peasy". There's also enneagram at play that dictates behavior. I'm trying to find good ways to explain it without going into the rant about majestic diversity of the Universe and a miracle of sentient life. Think of how many millions and millions (and billions if you count birth of the Universe) of years of evolution went into us being able to sit here and talk across the globe using those space and time denying machines? OK, this is rant. Back on track. Functions are something you are born with - a specific brain structure, environment you grow in ultimately makes at least a half of your behavior. There's 7 billion of people on Earth, each living in their culture, family, undergoing different hardships. Is there's a wonder that our appearance and behavior differs so much?

As for descriptions, most of people on this forum do not read and do not consider descriptions as anything more than Zodiac sort of generalization. I would suggest to avoid these as well as simple "5 sentence" explanations of functions themselves.

I now understand that I'll need years for get this on a deeper level but then isn't it great? You have a subject that is deep and expansive enough that you can spend years and still be unsure. :crazy:

Maybe to try to gauge more. Why did you get interested in function theory to begin with? What do you expect to gain? What interests you in it?


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

@whisperlumos Have I tried the simple way? Sorry I am in so many threads I forget which ways I tried.

So how do you relate to these?

1.

* *




For this person it is important that everyone is positively predisposed towards him. He does not like ambiguity in this matter and will strive to clarify the situation: "Lets get this straight - do you respect me or not?" Even small changes can bring about these clarification attempts: different facial expression, gaze, and so on. Often with age he becomes a good psychologists as it allows him to keep up his self-esteem. Fixed on the attitude of certain people and ignores the "public opinion". Very fond of social recognition: honor, glory, respect, diplomas, regalia, etc. For the sake of good relations can even work for free. Can offer to help out of sense of camaraderie. If there is someone in his surrounding who shows negative feelings towards him, it decreases his self-esteem. In active defense, he will try to win the good attitude of this person at any cost, in passive defense, on the contrary, may admit to behaving poorly. If positive relations do not exist, he can try to fix them at any price, or conversely, fall into avoidance upon realizing the impossibility of changing anything. Fond of flattery, is ready to support any opinion as well as come to compromise only to keep the positive predisposition towards himself. If he does not agree with someone, can conduct conversation very diplomatically. Communicating with people of this type one can feel internal tension associated with fear of evoking negative response. Often they will think ten times before saying anything, as if it is an important task. Move up the career ladder often due to their ability to be considerate of others. 

vs.

Tries to find a place where he is treated well by everybody. If someone expresses negative feelings towards him (for example, in a domestic fight his wife says, "I hate you"), then he takes this literally and tries to get out of there immediately and find another place where he is treated better. Therefore, they find it extremely difficult to be in places where they do not know how others are predisposed towards them. Appearance of someone who readily welcomes them is perceived as "the appearance of Christ to the people." Very suggestible when someone tells him about what relations exist between people. He likes positive emotions of other people, becomes as if charged up by them. Moves in overall direction of prevailing positive tone in emotions and avoids places with negative emotional charge. He does not like intrigue and gossip, feels uneasy in such situations since here he can easily fall victim and be put at a disadvantage. Therefore, he is critical of those who are not direct in communication, who speak in private and not openly, is suspicious of this. Relations between people should always be open, honest, and kind. What is said about one's relations should coincide with one's actions, and if not - then something is wrong. Saying that you love a person it should be demonstrated in action as well, and if your words are not visible - then they are not true. Very suspicious about predisposition of others towards him, suspects some kind of conspiracy. Even if suspicions are due to small detail, he either immediately tries to break off relations with a person or to exclude his or her from his inner circle, reducing contact with them to a minimum. Because of this he can considered a defector - if he finds people who treat him better he may ally with them, finding this a substantial enough argument to change sides. May fall victim to sycophancy.




2.

* *




These people are afraid of missing something in life, of not keeping up with the possibilities of the external world. They run forward just to stay in place. Their self-esteem depends on the "wholeness" of the external situation - they become upset if this wholeness is upset: for example, someone in the family just had a fight so it is necessary to "extinguish" the conflict, to reconcile all, even if it was for good reasons and everyone will be better off he will "ruffle and shuffle" within the situation to prevent the conflict from happening. Cling to the relationships until the last moment, even if they have been exhausted by them, so as to not to destroy this wholeness. At the same time they can completely forget about themselves as to not destroy the status quo. If their neighbor has a garden, they need to start one up immediately; if there was a new movie, they make sure to watch it - to keep up with the world they keep chasing after novelties and new fashions. Thus is not just the desire for external wholeness - but a marathon. He likes to be outdoors, because it is stable and harmonious at the same time. He does not like external inconsistencies, uncertainty in situations, will be constantly trying to clarify in such cases. Seeks to preserve the constancy in life situations, even when it is clearly not possible. In active defense, this function simply upgrades and modernizes, constantly adapts to changing of the world, so that all may continue to remain unchanged for some time and question of keep up with external situations is successfully resolved. In passive defense, the man resigns himself to the fact that keeping up is not possible and lets things take their course, falls short from the flow of life and recognizes the impossibility of preserving his ideas about the ideal world in the environment. Often, these people like holidays and traditions, as they have a stabilizing function in society. Want to be like everyone else is, have what everyone else has. Try to give objective form to their ideals: create a perfect, fairy-tale world where everything will be good and perfect. To recognize the impossibility of this - means to kill self-esteem, so they often believe in fairy tales, like movies with happy endings, to experience this state of the external "wholeness". Often pay attention to signs, horoscopes, tarot cards, are often religious - all that can give at least some measure of assistance in building an ideal world. Magical worlds can be built only through magical methods.

vs.

The person looks for a place to stay where there is external stability, harmony in the flow of things, positive atmosphere, and avoids places that are lacking in this. According to this principle he builds his personal life and work. Becomes inspired by bold innovative ideas, sometimes can get involved with unexpected, original proposals. Loves nature because it is constant, not changing, always calm and harmonious. Suggestible by external harmony and does not like sudden interruptions. If such interruptions happen, he simply leaves and goes to where it's more harmonious without trying to change anything. Often harmony for him is where he feels himself to be in the center of a situation, where everything revolves around him. Likes to attend carnivals, festivals, holiday, since they bring an external harmony, holiday atmosphere. Usually these types of people absorb the atmosphere, the settings, and the situations which prevailed at the time when they were small, and then attempt to reproduce it throughout their life. In general, they are very fond of remembering their childhood as something that they would want to come back to. Very fond of talented people: artists, musicians, poets, and sometimes even ready to support them financially for the opportunity to be in their company, often dragging them to their home so that the place lights up. Look for people who believe that everything will be fine, who believe in a positive future. Do not like the unpredictability, the chaos of the future, when someone has to help them find the right options, to catch the right opportunity, so he is very trusting and suggestible in decision-making. Likes predictability, moving "from one milestone to another." If this sequence is disrupted and an unexpected event happens, he may fall into "stupor", thus they are trying to take precautions, to provide for in advance, to cover for all contingencies. A good place for him is where is external wholeness, some orientating marks for the general movement, some suggested schedule and course of action. For example: 1) go to college 2) take these courses 3) finish it in 4 years. If he falls into some schedule, some routine, then to leave it is difficult for him due to difficulty in seeing options. Instead he may suddenly switch to another, more advanced schedule, with a guaranteed "bright future".




And 3.

* *




For this individual knowledge is paramount, a measure of worth: "If there is something I don't know - I'm inferior". Therefore, very often they claim they know how something is done, while in reality not knowing it (often in hopes that they will research it later, and that no one will suspect that they were bluffing). Sometimes, in self-defense, you can hear them say "I don't know", shamefully admitting to their weakness. It is also important for them to have some personal territory, a place where they have the opportunity to be in charge. They love to learn, because acquired knowledge increases their self-esteem. Nothing pleases them more as to receive a high mark on some subject. Such person is very attentive to objective reality: any violation in the order of things stresses him. He likes to reinforce own claims with links to an authoritative sources, statistics and facts, but cannot analyze them in terms of understanding. His vocation: the keeper of factual knowledge. Can't stand any measure of chaos in information, when nothing is clear. In such situations, tries to simplify the information: "Do we have any actual, concrete facts and figures? Lets start with these. " "If there is order in my world - then I am good, if not - then I'm bad." Have a tendency to idealize their "objective" picture of the world and authoritative figures. That is, they view it as what actually exists, even if they are in error and many of their facts are specious. Often become followers of something, of some "order of things" and attempt to implement this order everywhere. Getting promoted to higher position usually recruit "their" people who accept their "order of things" and their actions. Very important concept for them: "If I am the owner, I am the boss in my territory." It does not matter what the size of this territory is: a room or an entire state, as long as their authority has been accepted by everyone. Sometimes this takes a comical shape: a guard of some area considers himself to be in the right to decide whether or not to let you in based on his personal whims. In personal life, this can lead to elevated demands placed on potential partners: it is necessary to fully accept all of their outward actions, but this can be done only up to certain extent. Often they are aware that finding such ideal in principle not possible. Violation of the order of things by their subordinates is a serious offense - have you arrived too late? Thus you destroyed his order. If he is not the boss, then it is important for him to know exactly the extent of his responsibilities, otherwise he may not take up someone else's "order of things." Love to order people around if opportunity presents itself: relatives, subordinates, depending on how far their concept of territory extends itself.

This person easily believes in facts and figures, often turn a deaf ear to everything but these. Keeps to places where he knows what to do in every situation. Suggestible by the external order of things, which is often the order that was in place during his upbringing: the political system, social norms, etc. Reacts sensitively to social changes: "God grant you do not live in an era of change." Always moves in the direction of highest order and carefully avoids chaos, is inspired by this order and worries that in future it might change. In this regard, may gravitate towards work in the military, which has the force of statute. It is important to him that the environment is always organized in accordance to rules and laws that he is accustomed to, that this order does not contradict the facts of objective reality. It is also important to know who should be in what position, what needs to be done, what documents must be collected, for what purpose, where they should be submitted, what is the correct way to fill them out. Feels most comfortable in situations where there is only one interpretation of correct action, without any admixture with elements of subjectivity: "in this such case, this should be done". Knowledge of the facts of the situation often replaces true understanding of the underlying problems. Understanding becomes superficial, simply a collection of surface data and statistics, laws and regulations. He does not like long and detailed explanations, will immediately interrupt and say: "So what is this in actuality?". He wants to get a working solution or order right away, not the rationale behind it. For example: "2x2=4." This is an already established rule. Likes terminology, you can sometimes talk to him only using some accepted terms and this will be sufficient. Does not like those who destroy the norms of behavior, for example, those who break the chain of command. Especially gets influenced by the facts that he sees with his own eyes or can touch with own hands. Thus he can fall victim to scams that provide specious claims and facts, especially if the scam is done out in the open ("simple dexterity of hands and no tricks").




And last but not least

* *




It is very important for such person to understand everything. If you inquire about some difficult question from him, you may hear that he understands it, but only in a very peculiar way. If he is unable to understand something, it lowers his self-esteem, thus he doesn't like to admit that he hasn't understood something. He enjoys being praised for his logic, likes to boast that he has thought up of something himself. Often likes to refer to some stories from everyday life, because nobody would think of checking their validity. In general, likes to make references to somebody else as a way of protecting his arguments (since then the responsibility for objectivity is passed on to this person). Realizes himself in areas that do not require factual confirmation. In passive self-defense he will admit to not understanding something, call himself stupid, or complain that no one understands him. In active self-defense he will argue that he understands everything correctly. His logic is the logic of common sense and everyday life, so it is difficult to argue with it. Everything that comes into his life must be understood and comprehended. And he, coming into other people's lives, hopes to be understood by them. Afraid to be mistaken in his understanding of something, but on occasion can very easily change his explanation, but so that it is not very conspicuous ("sure crocodiles can fly, but very, very close to the ground"). Worries often and tries to clarify matters of mutual understanding with others, "you did not understand me, I hoped it would be better this way". Wants to be appreciated for his sincerity.

vs.

Deliberately searches for a place where everything is clear and avoids those places where something remains unclear, primarily from the point of view of common sense. Needs people who know how to make complicated things more understandable and becomes attached to such people. If you tell him that something is going to be difficult to understand, then he won't even make attempts. If you tell him that it will be easy to understand, he will become inspired by this. Very suggestible by understanding of other people and, in general, by any logic, thus can easily believe in the most bizarre and unrealistic things, very easy to convince. Loves to learn, but to those courses where everything is explained in meticulous detail. Lectures where instructor simply gives terms and facts repel him, as each term must be explained to him in detail. Can easily get tricked because of this suggestibility through logic. Wherever someone gives them explanations so that everything is simple and clear, they will favor such place. In situations where he doesn't understand something, may pretend to be stupid, uninterested, or bored. Becomes angry with those who know but refuse to explain what it is not clear to him; believes that they are mocking him. The best environment for him is where everything is 100% understandable.




Could you write what resonates with you and what doesn't?


----------



## whisperlumos (Apr 28, 2015)

@Greyhart

I understand everything that you're saying, though I'm not sure I fully agree. Of course it shouldn't be simple, but shouldn't it at the very least be grounded in reality? You say we're born with these functions, but in what way? According to whom? Honestly, I think people (including myself) may be taking MBTI a little too seriously. To me, it's frustrating, because I relate somewhat to every single function - in equal measure. I read your inferior function descriptions, and I relate somewhat to all of them; there isn't one that stands out. Maybe it's because I'm young, and some may say I don't know myself well enough, but I'm the most introspective, and quite frankly, self-absorbed, person I know. I don't think it's meant to be this difficult to figure out your MBTI type.

I don't have time this second, but I'll highlight what resonates with me from the inferior function descriptions and post it here.


----------



## whisperlumos (Apr 28, 2015)

@Greyhart

1. 

For this person it is important that everyone is positively predisposed towards him. *He does not like ambiguity in this matter* and will strive to clarify the situation: "Lets get this straight - do you respect me or not?" *Even small changes can bring about these clarification attempts: different facial expression, gaze, and so on. Often with age he becomes a good psychologists as it allows him to keep up his self-esteem. Fixed on the attitude of certain people and ignores the "public opinion". *Very fond of social recognition: honor, glory, respect, diplomas, regalia, etc. For the sake of good relations can even work for free. Can offer to help out of sense of camaraderie. If there is someone in his surrounding who shows negative feelings towards him, it decreases his self-esteem. In active defense, he will try to win the good attitude of this person at any cost, in passive defense, on the contrary, may admit to behaving poorly. If positive relations do not exist, he can try to fix them at any price, *or conversely, fall into avoidance upon realizing the impossibility of changing anything.* *Fond of flattery,* is ready to support any opinion as well as come to compromise only to keep the positive predisposition towards himself. *If he does not agree with someone, can conduct conversation very diplomatically. Communicating with people of this type one can feel internal tension associated with fear of evoking negative response.* *Often they will think ten times before saying anything, as if it is an important task.* Move up the career ladder often due to their ability to be considerate of others.

vs.

*Tries to find a place where he is treated well by everybody.* If someone expresses negative feelings towards him (for example, in a domestic fight his wife says, "I hate you"), then he takes this literally and tries to get out of there immediately and find another place where he is treated better. Therefore, they find it extremely difficult to be in places where they do not know how others are predisposed towards them. Appearance of someone who readily welcomes them is perceived as "the appearance of Christ to the people." Very suggestible when someone tells him about what relations exist between people. He likes positive emotions of other people, becomes as if charged up by them. Moves in overall direction of prevailing positive tone in emotions and avoids places with negative emotional charge. He does not like intrigue and gossip, feels uneasy in such situations since here he can easily fall victim and be put at a disadvantage. *Therefore, he is critical of those who are not direct in communication, who speak in private and not openly, is suspicious of this. Relations between people should always be open, honest, and kind.* *What is said about one's relations should coincide with one's actions, and if not - then something is wrong. Saying that you love a person it should be demonstrated in action as well,* and if your words are not visible - then they are not true. *Very suspicious about predisposition of others towards him, suspects some kind of conspiracy.* *Even if suspicions are due to small detail,* he either immediately tries to break off relations with a person or to exclude his or her from his inner circle, *reducing contact with them to a minimum.* Because of this he can considered a defector - if he finds people who treat him better he may ally with them, finding this a substantial enough argument to change sides. May fall victim to sycophancy. 


2.

*These people are afraid of missing something in life, of not keeping up with the possibilities of the external world.* They run forward just to stay in place. Their self-esteem depends on the "wholeness" of the external situation - they become upset if this wholeness is upset: *for example, someone in the family just had a fight so it is necessary to "extinguish" the conflict, to reconcile all, even if it was for good reasons and everyone will be better off he will "ruffle and shuffle" within the situation to prevent the conflict from happening.* Cling to the relationships until the last moment, even if they have been exhausted by them, so as to not to destroy this wholeness. At the same time they can completely forget about themselves as to not destroy the status quo. If their neighbor has a garden, they need to start one up immediately; if there was a new movie, they make sure to watch it - to keep up with the world they keep chasing after novelties and new fashions. Thus is not just the desire for external wholeness - but a marathon. *He likes to be outdoors, because it is stable and harmonious at the same time.* He does not like external inconsistencies, uncertainty in situations, will be constantly trying to clarify in such cases. Seeks to preserve the constancy in life situations, even when it is clearly not possible. In active defense, this function simply upgrades and modernizes, constantly adapts to changing of the world, so that all may continue to remain unchanged for some time and question of keep up with external situations is successfully resolved. In passive defense, the man resigns himself to the fact that keeping up is not possible and lets things take their course, falls short from the flow of life and recognizes the impossibility of preserving his ideas about the ideal world in the environment. Often, these people like holidays and traditions, as they have a stabilizing function in society. Want to be like everyone else is, have what everyone else has. *Try to give objective form to their ideals: create a perfect, fairy-tale world where everything will be good and perfect.* To recognize the impossibility of this - means to kill self-esteem, so they often believe in fairy tales, like movies with happy endings, to experience this state of the external "wholeness". Often pay attention to signs, horoscopes, tarot cards, are often religious - all that can give at least some measure of assistance in building an ideal world. Magical worlds can be built only through magical methods.

vs.

*The person looks for a place to stay where there is external stability, harmony in the flow of things, positive atmosphere, and avoids places that are lacking in this. According to this principle he builds his personal life and work. Becomes inspired by bold innovative ideas, sometimes can get involved with unexpected, original proposals. Loves nature because it is constant, not changing, always calm and harmonious. *Suggestible by external harmony and does not like sudden interruptions. If such interruptions happen, he simply leaves and goes to where it's more harmonious without trying to change anything. Often harmony for him is where he feels himself to be in the center of a situation, where everything revolves around him. Likes to attend carnivals, festivals, holiday, since they bring an external harmony, holiday atmosphere. Usually these types of people absorb the atmosphere, the settings, and the situations which prevailed at the time when they were small, and then attempt to reproduce it throughout their life. In general, they are very fond of remembering their childhood as something that they would want to come back to. *Very fond of talented people: artists, musicians, poets,* and sometimes even ready to support them financially for the opportunity to be in their company, often dragging them to their home so that the place lights up. Look for people who believe that everything will be fine, who believe in a positive future. Do not like the unpredictability, the chaos of the future, when someone has to help them find the right options, to catch the right opportunity, so he is very trusting and suggestible in decision-making. Likes predictability, moving "from one milestone to another." If this sequence is disrupted and an unexpected event happens, he may fall into "stupor", thus they are trying to take precautions, to provide for in advance, to cover for all contingencies. *A good place for him is where is external wholeness, some orientating marks for the general movement, some suggested schedule and course of action. For example: 1) go to college 2) take these courses 3) finish it in 4 years.* If he falls into some schedule, some routine, then to leave it is difficult for him due to difficulty in seeing options. Instead he may suddenly switch to another, more advanced schedule, with a guaranteed "bright future". 

3.

For this individual knowledge is paramount, a measure of worth: "If there is something I don't know - I'm inferior". Therefore, very often they claim they know how something is done, while in reality not knowing it (often in hopes that they will research it later, and that no one will suspect that they were bluffing). Sometimes, in self-defense, you can hear them say "I don't know", shamefully admitting to their weakness. *It is also important for them to have some personal territory, a place where they have the opportunity to be in charge.* They love to learn, because acquired knowledge increases their self-esteem. *Nothing pleases them more as to receive a high mark on some subject.* Such person is very attentive to objective reality: any violation in the order of things stresses him. He likes to reinforce own claims with links to an authoritative sources, statistics and facts, but cannot analyze them in terms of understanding. His vocation: the keeper of factual knowledge. *Can't stand any measure of chaos in information, when nothing is clear. In such situations, tries to simplify the information: "Do we have any actual, concrete facts and figures? Lets start with these. " "If there is order in my world - then I am good, if not - then I'm bad." Have a tendency to idealize their "objective" picture of the world* and authoritative figures. That is, they view it as what actually exists, even if they are in error and many of their facts are specious. Often become followers of something, of some "order of things" and attempt to implement this order everywhere. Getting promoted to higher position usually recruit "their" people who accept their "order of things" and their actions. Very important concept for them: "If I am the owner, I am the boss in my territory." It does not matter what the size of this territory is: a room or an entire state, as long as their authority has been accepted by everyone. Sometimes this takes a comical shape: a guard of some area considers himself to be in the right to decide whether or not to let you in based on his personal whims. In personal life, this can lead to elevated demands placed on potential partners: it is necessary to fully accept all of their outward actions, but this can be done only up to certain extent. Often they are aware that finding such ideal in principle not possible. Violation of the order of things by their subordinates is a serious offense - have you arrived too late? Thus you destroyed his order. If he is not the boss, then it is important for him to know exactly the extent of his responsibilities, otherwise he may not take up someone else's "order of things." Love to order people around if opportunity presents itself: relatives, subordinates, depending on how far their concept of territory extends itself.

vs.

This person easily believes in facts and figures, often turn a deaf ear to everything but these. *Keeps to places where he knows what to do in every situation. *Suggestible by the external order of things, which is often the order that was in place during his upbringing: the political system, social norms, etc. Reacts sensitively to social changes: "God grant you do not live in an era of change." Always moves in the direction of highest order and carefully avoids chaos, is inspired by this order and worries that in future it might change. In this regard, may gravitate towards work in the military, which has the force of statute. *It is important to him that the environment is always organized in accordance to rules and laws that he is accustomed to, that this order does not contradict the facts of objective reality. It is also important to know who should be in what position, what needs to be done, what documents must be collected, for what purpose, where they should be submitted, what is the correct way to fill them out. Feels most comfortable in situations where there is only one interpretation of correct action, without any admixture with elements of subjectivity: "in this such case, this should be done".* Knowledge of the facts of the situation often replaces true understanding of the underlying problems. Understanding becomes superficial, simply a collection of surface data and statistics, laws and regulations. He does not like long and detailed explanations, will immediately interrupt and say: "So what is this in actuality?". He wants to get a working solution or order right away, not the rationale behind it. For example: "2x2=4." This is an already established rule. Likes terminology, you can sometimes talk to him only using some accepted terms and this will be sufficient. Does not like those who destroy the norms of behavior, for example, those who break the chain of command. Especially gets influenced by the facts that he sees with his own eyes or can touch with own hands. Thus he can fall victim to scams that provide specious claims and facts, especially if the scam is done out in the open ("simple dexterity of hands and no tricks").

4. 

It is very important for such person to understand everything. If you inquire about some difficult question from him, you may hear that he understands it, but only in a very peculiar way. If he is unable to understand something, it lowers his self-esteem, thus he doesn't like to admit that he hasn't understood something. *He enjoys being praised for his logic, likes to boast that he has thought up of something himself. *Often likes to refer to some stories from everyday life, because nobody would think of checking their validity. In general, likes to make references to somebody else as a way of protecting his arguments (since then the responsibility for objectivity is passed on to this person). Realizes himself in areas that do not require factual confirmation. In passive self-defense he will admit to not understanding something, call himself stupid, or complain that no one understands him. In active self-defense he will argue that he understands everything correctly. His logic is the logic of common sense and everyday life, so it is difficult to argue with it. Everything that comes into his life must be understood and comprehended. And he, coming into other people's lives, hopes to be understood by them. *Afraid to be mistaken in his understanding of something, but on occasion can very easily change his explanation, but so that it is not very conspicuous *("sure crocodiles can fly, but very, very close to the ground"). *Worries often and tries to clarify matters of mutual understanding with others, "you did not understand me, I hoped it would be better this way". Wants to be appreciated for his sincerity.
*
vs.

Deliberately searches for a place where everything is clear and avoids those places where something remains unclear, primarily from the point of view of common sense. Needs people who know how to make complicated things more understandable and becomes attached to such people. If you tell him that something is going to be difficult to understand, then he won't even make attempts. If you tell him that it will be easy to understand, he will become inspired by this. Very suggestible by understanding of other people and, in general, by any logic, thus can easily believe in the most bizarre and unrealistic things, very easy to convince. Loves to learn, but to those courses where everything is explained in meticulous detail. Lectures where instructor simply gives terms and facts repel him, as each term must be explained to him in detail. Can easily get tricked because of this suggestibility through logic. Wherever someone gives them explanations so that everything is simple and clear, they will favor such place. In situations where he doesn't understand something, may pretend to be stupid, uninterested, or bored. Becomes angry with those who know but refuse to explain what it is not clear to him; believes that they are mocking him. The best environment for him is where everything is 100% understandable. 

(Actually didn’t relate to anything from the last one!)


----------



## whisperlumos (Apr 28, 2015)

I'm pretty sure I'm an enneagram 5w4, by the way, if that's of any help.


----------



## robert666 (Mar 18, 2015)

@whisperlumos here are some questions for you. Please elaborate in your answers.





> Everything is covered in a thick layer of dust and the miserable linoleum floor (orange and brown) is littered with garbage. *The ambiguous outside is tantalising, albeit scary and confusing.*


Would you say that the ambiguous is tantalising to you in general? Please elaborate.



> Naturally, on the opposite side of this fear, is the thing we we want, but the more I think about it, I realise that I don't really wish for the approval of total strangers or other things of that nature. Not rationally. *They're just getting in the way of the things I actually want*, cluttering my mind with their incessant primitive babble of fear.


Tell us about what it is that you actually want.



> generally have difficulty relating to Fi subjects


What kinds of subjects are these?



> repulsed by sentimentality


What is so repulsive about it?



Around 6:00 in your video. You say that you value truth above anything. What kind of truth? Please tell us more.

Around 6:20 in your video. You say that you value when someone really strives to understand something. What is it that you would like them to strive to understand?

Around 7:30 in your video. You say that you value rationality, but not rationality to a fault. What do you mean by rationality in this case, since you value it but only up to a limit.

Around 7:43 in your video. You say that you value contemplation. What is it that you contemplate?

Around 8:35 in your video. You say that if someone said something completely illogical, it would upset you more than if they said something immoral or cruel. Could you clarify what would be illogical.

Around 9:35 in your video. You say that you are energized when talking to someone who not just understands you, but strives to understand you. Please tell us more about why the "striving" is important.

Around 10:05 in your video. You say that you are energized by solitary activities such as reading and writing. How does paying attention to, and understanding your feelings as an activity compare when it comes to energizing activities?

Around 13:10 in your video. You say that some of your strengths are autonomy and rationality. What do these words mean to you in this context?

Around 13:20 in your video. Right after you mention rationality as a strength you say that you don't believe in it. Please clarify.

Around 13:40 in your video. You say that independence is very important and that peer pressure does not affect you at all. Why is it important to be immune to peer pressure?

Around 14:48 in your video. You say that you have developed the ability to see something from every possible angle and that it is a strength as well as a weakness. Please tell us more about what it is like for you.

Around 16:10 in your video. You say that you can be quite harsh on yourself and perfectionistic. You have visions of how things should turn out and if they don't, then you are quite disappointed. Please tell us more about your expectations of how things should turn out.

Around 19:40 in your video. You say that you like your "social goodness". Please explain this social goodness.

Around 20:15 in your video. You say that if someone is annoyed by you messing up something simple such as ordering coffee, it can affect you in a really strange way. Please elaborate on how it affects you.



Do you prefer to make decisions as soon as possible or put them off as long as possible?

You have been given the "Most valuable person on earth" award. What did you do to deserve the honour?

You are at a social event and notice that one of the people there seems depressed. What is your impression of the situation? Do you feel the urge to do anything? Why or why not?

To what extent do your or other people's feelings play a part in your decisions?


----------



## whisperlumos (Apr 28, 2015)

@robert666

Thank you for your detailed response. I'll have to think about the questions for a bit before I respond. 

One thing, though, I'm pretty sure I said "social awkwardness", not "social goodness".


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

The problem is that you are highlighting positive aspects of the tertiary and inferior functions I brought up there. Inferior is about finding constant weak point. Look for weakness, for bad habits, for badly controlled urges. For example here's Si in ENPs


* *




These sociotypes always move in the direction of places where there is physical comfort and constancy, pleasant sensations, and cannot deny themselves in this. Where they are physically comfortable, such places are good, even if they are very expensive. Love fine food, massage, rubbing. Having found one place where they feel comfortable, such as a restaurant - could go there for dinner across town. Avoid places which lack all of his needed physical facilities. Food lovers, slaves to their preferences and habits. If they have a sweet tooth, will consume sweets by kilograms. Often determines the state of their physical being by the words of others, easily suggestible by this. Sometimes can try to recreate at home the elements of the place where they felt most comfortable physically. Quickly become accustomed to the "good" and this becomes their weakness in the future - without it they cannot endure. Suggestible by authorities on issues of health - if he is told that he needs to have something treated, he will easily believe it. In this context, can fall prey to "snake oil physicians". May forget to eat on time or to take medicine, to sleep, thus are in need of caring parents or spouses.




I am poor, I eat mainly potatoes, pasta and oatmeal but I buy expensive black tea blends and lots of sweets and chocolate because I can't go without those. No way I'm drinking sub-par tea. I am also allergic but I keep overeating sweets because it's just too pleasant. My flat is a dumpster, I leave trash in places trash shouldn't be, I don't clean my pots and rarely wash floor, none of this bothers me because as long as I am comfortable I don't notice my surrounding. I hate to travel because I can't stand lack of hot water, not-perfect mattresses and public restrooms. I am hypochondriac, recently I saw one of my moles and decided it changed it's size, run to oncology hospital and practically bullied doc into lasering-out my 1 mm mole while he was saying that the mole is fine. If am told that am I might have this or that I almost instantly start feeling unease in whatever organ could be ill - did it always feel like this or it didn't? At the same time I neglect my health and don't go to doctor unless it really hurts and painkillers don't help. I also often don't eat 20+ hours because I am too engrossed in something to notice it. Inferior and tert Si are also sentimental/nostalgic kind, I wrote something in the other thread to bring an example. At the same time I resent delving into the past events (including the good ones) and only recently started trying to retrospect, mostly because of my interest in typology. I don't collect regrets and future always seems brighter and more promising so I often don't take into consideration my past mistakes since I see them as irrelevant for current and future me.

Tert Fe description is also me, good and the bad. As an example of tertiary Fe being in asshole stage until recent years, 4-5ish years ago you could find me gleefully telling my 80 years old grandma with a heart condition that her religion is not only false and illogical but also harmful for the future of humanity, that it was used as a tool of oppressing and controlling population and frankly speaking should be outlawed. For me it was making a logical sense and for the good of everyone's future, freedoms of minority (since this is how I viewed religions people) should be sacrificed. Now I cringed over that so hard that I could die from self-second-hand embarrassment I would. 

I realized I didn't try the Se to here it is also


* *




For these people the most important thing in life is to be rich, powerful, beautiful, successful, skillful. Perceives this as a challenge and ties his self-esteem to such things, so worries a lot about them. If something does not come together, it becomes almost as if a catastrophe. Often likes to dress to catch an eye, brightly, defiantly, as a way to challenge others and prove their own beauty and success. Ruin, old age, lack of social success, ugliness in terms of social standards for such a person can even become a motive for suicide. In passive self-defense they may, on the contrary, cease to monitor the appearance and go unkempt. In general, they tend to believe that a profession one must leave on time, so as not to disgrace themselves. Afraid to look weak and like to present themselves as bold, strong. For this reason they may, for example, engage in martial arts, for "the show", to learn some tricks and dangerous maneuvers and show them off wherever possible, as well as sports. Such a man needs to be constantly taking to new heights and this, strangely enough, is also his weak point. Sometimes, if everything is going smoothly in his life, at some point he can drop everything and go to another town to "start over", thus increasing self-esteem. Very strongly socially conditioned. If someone needs something - then automatically it becomes necessary for him, and he will start trying to get it, too, using any method. What is intended for him and lies within his reach bores him, if he doesn't need to win it over, to conquer it. Hence there may be similar problems in personal relationships, that become a constant race for the unattainable. And as soon as it becomes reachable, then all interest is lost - this is the paradox.To be able to overcome everything and win is the main motive of their activity. The worst thing for them - to lose, this means disgrace. Because of this, do not like to get involved in those businesses where it is too difficult to win. On this function there cannot be any large risks, thus he typically comes up with difficult, even very complex tasks, but that are solvable and achievable. These tasks are most often associated with existing skills, rather than requiring the development of new ones. They need social success, a universal recognition of their victory. Can come up with an unusual way to improve his self-esteem: suddenly fall ill, then go in for heavy treatment, recover, and take this as his own achievement and victory.

vs.

These people are always moving in the direction of greatest strength, wealth, success, reliability, suggestible by the external form, appearance. They try to live a beautiful life, whatever it costs them. One gets the impression that they always manage to be on the winning side, on the side of the strongest party. If the balance of forces is switched, likewise they will change their direction. Often attracted to strong people. They are easily put into optimistic state of mind if "shaken up" a little - immediately become charged by the received pulse. They constantly try to be in environment where they has a sense of omnipotence: money, power, honor, glory, medals, etc. If they are at the the bottom of social hierarchy, will attempt to climb up by any means necessary. If something is being imposed on them, they are often not able to resist and oppose it, easily suggestible by force. Thus they may act cold, distant and aloof, just in case, as to not fall into such circumstances. A good place for him is where there is some kind of action, active work, turbulent life. He becomes unconsciously "plugged in", involved in it, and then later is surprised to discover himself where he did not expect himself to be. For this reason, they need to be careful not to get involved by chance in some business or project with which he had no desire to have an association. They are very easy pushed into something, moved towards some solution, because these people are easily manipulated by someone's force and suddenly find themselves besides such a person. Often they do not take offense at the sarcastic jokes made in their own address, as they also contain an element of force, may even perceive this as a hidden compliment. Respond to this sarcastically as the situation in principle implies he needs to reply with something for it. However, being drawn to strength and constantly going in the same direction, sooner or later he may actually reach it, and not just try to discover and obtain it. Sometimes they may try to provoke someone to use their force, for example, offer to arrange a tournament in arm wrestling.




Also Fe, do you relate to this? The whole thread turned out pretty good.

As for _"I understand everything that you're saying, though I'm not sure I fully agree. Of course it shouldn't be simple, but shouldn't it at the very least be grounded in reality?"_ I don't see this is a problem. The system is working and I can see patterns of this in people around me. 

_"To me, it's frustrating, because I relate somewhat to every single function - in equal measure. I read your inferior function descriptions, and I relate somewhat to all of them; there isn't one that stands out." _ People use all of 8 functions. No one is half-brained. (ok well some probably are but you know generalizing) This is why I like socionics interpretations since they take into account influence of all 8.

_"You say we're born with these functions, but in what way? According to whom?"_ Jung and well, variety of researches afterwards. Closes we have to proof is Nardi's research. I see it working in me and others, and I greatly enjoy typing people around me, looking for the ways our types influence interactions and tastes. I don't see a problem here. If you dislike it, do not get into it. Cognitive function isn't the only system out there, if it doesn't satisfy your... whatever you are interested in it for. Many prefer enneagram. Most seem to like big five too. This confuses me because if you do not believe in this theory then there's no point of getting to learn any of this.

Also, as for your age, generally people agree that we should be typed 18+. Personally I'd go 20+.


----------



## whisperlumos (Apr 28, 2015)

@Greyhart

I certainly don't think I highlighted the positive aspects. I sincerely considered each sentence and asked myself earnestly if I related to it. And of course I'm interested in typology! As I mentioned in my OP, I've been into MBTI for the past four years. By "into it", I mean utterly obsessed to the point where it has become a bit of an annoyance to the people I surround myself with.

I'm very much aware of my weaknesses, but when reading the inferior function descriptions, there isn't one that resonates strongly with me. I certainly lack motivation and I'm perfectionist to a fault; I can at times be oblivious of others feelings, and when it comes to practical application, I'm utterly useless; I tend to miss details that appear obvious to others; and some may say I live too much in my head.


----------

