# Curious NTs Want to Know



## jendragon (Aug 28, 2012)

Would you describe yourself as fiercely individualistic? Yes, no, to what degree, why or why not?


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## Tula13 (Dec 2, 2012)

I don't know about fiercely. I value my independence and having my own mind and experience, but I love helping others and being part of a group.


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## TheDragon (Feb 21, 2011)

jendragon said:


> Would you describe yourself as fiercely individualistic? Yes, no, to what degree, why or why not?


Individualistic in what sense?


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## jendragon (Aug 28, 2012)

TheDragon said:


> Individualistic in what sense?


That's part of the question, actually. What does individualism mean to you?


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## TheDragon (Feb 21, 2011)

jendragon said:


> That's part of the question, actually. What does individualism mean to you?


Fair enough. 

individualism is difficult for me to define. It's too nebulous of a concept for me to put into words, tbh. I keep trying to type out different definitions for it, but I can't really come up with one that does the word justice. Individualism can show up in so many ways. I don't think I can consider myself "*fiercely *individualistic". I tend to prioritize harmony and understanding over most things, but that's not to say that I don't have my own identity. I'm an individual in the sense that I have my own values, opinions, and style, but not to the point where I close myself off to other viewpoints. I don't really have a strong need to extravert my 'individualism', so in that sense, I'm not 'fiercely individualistic'. My bend towards harmony and understanding kind of leads me to suppress aspects of myself in order to relate to others on their level (that darn Fe, haha). 

Do 'curious NTs' = you, btw? Do you consider yourself fiercely individualistic?


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## jendragon (Aug 28, 2012)

TheDragon said:


> Do 'curious NTs' = you, btw? Do you consider yourself fiercely individualistic?


Yep--I did an interaction vid with @MegaTuxRacer, and, being 2 ENTPs, we debated a lot of ideas. One thing that we never reached a consensus on was whether SJs would identify themselves as fiercely individualistic. I thought, hey, this is PerC, we have SJs, so I'll ask!

And, yes, I think I'd call myself fiercely individualistic. I don't base my core identity on being unique the way that some do, but I do relish and prize my uniqueness. And I'm certainly fierce about maintaining internal consistency, whether that adheres to group norms or not. That's not optional for me.


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## chaoticbrain (May 5, 2012)

Don't SJ's usually desire to belong to groups and so on ? How would individualism fit with that?


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## pizzapie (Oct 23, 2012)

chaoticbrain said:


> Don't SJ's usually desire to belong to groups and so on ? How would individualism fit with that?


Yes, that's part of being an SJ--wanting to belong. SJs are kind of seen as conformists I guess because their ideals are typically running along with society's, but I wouldn't jump so far as to say they aren't individualistic.

I don't consider myself fiercely individualistic, but I do think I am individual. If my opinion differs from someone else's, I'm not afraid to pipe in and say something. However I usually don't because I don't like being put on the spot or being thought of as stupid (which I don't think having a different view would bring on me, but rather not being able to defend it adequately). I get really nervous when a lot of people are watching me and I kind of just forget everything I wanted to say or could say.

But yes, I am an individual and I pride myself in not conforming, even though some people may see me as that way. Sucks for them!!!


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

chaoticbrain said:


> Don't SJ's usually desire to belong to groups and so on ? How would individualism fit with that?


I've had a couple conversations with an ISTJ about this. He's said he doesn't think about himself all that much and doesn't care to stand out (excluding when he stands up for his values, as he's 1w9). He belongs to our group just fine , but that seems to be a secondary desire to completing tasks efficiently.
Some SJ's seem to possess a certain endearing lack of self-awareness that accompanies their selfless work ethic. I think this is why they aren't as individualistic as, say, an INFP 4w3 that desires self-expression and self-actualization, etc.

I *know *I've been over-generalizing a bit... But isn't that what MBTI is for


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## chaoticbrain (May 5, 2012)

Who was saying SJ's are fiercely individualistic and why? Im curious about how being individualistic would fit with an SJ's desire to belong and fit with a group.


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## jendragon (Aug 28, 2012)

chaoticbrain said:


> Who was saying SJ's are fiercely individualistic and why? Im curious about how being individualistic would fit with an SJ's desire to belong and fit with a group.


MegaTuxRacer had had a conversation with an SJ who identified himself as fiercely individualistic. I contended that it probably didn't generalize to SJs as a type, and we proceeded to get into a 30-minute Ti semantics debate over what 'fiercely individualistic' means. My perception is that there exists a continuum, as follows:

1) fiercely individualistic--needing to be unique and apart from the group for purposes of self-identity. (i.e., enneagram 4)
2) individualistic--on principle, making choices without regard to group norms, whether the result is conformity or non-conformity (i.e., Ti of E5 variety)
3) cooperative--on principle, making choices with regard to group dynamics, for the purposes of efficiency (Te) or harmony (Fe)
4) co-dependent--unwilling to stand out from the group norm for any reason; irrational fear of exposure (any type, unhealthy)

I think most people of any variety would fall into groups 2 or 3. I also don't think that not being individualistic means you have to be co-dependent, or have some kind of borg-esque hive mind. It just means you prioritize efficiency or harmony over your individual ethics--which everyone has. And even though I do rather identify myself as category 1, I realize that it, too, can be unhealthy, if one makes destructive choices simply to avoid conformity. 

In fact, being a healthy group 1 is a fine line to walk. Being honest, many of us are on this forum because we have been made to feel abnormal, and are seeking a place where we either belong, or our uniqueness is validated. Obviously, I fall into this category. My strategy has been to generate my own self-esteem by embracing the 'outsider' image I'd been given by society at large. Yes. Yes, you're right, I am weird. And I'm fine with that. BUT, I have had to be careful not to cling to it in anger, or in fear of those who have written me off. In other words, 'fierce individualism' can be healthy when it is a source of joy and humor and self-acceptance. It is unhealthy when it is a result of fear or anger. 

My random NTP soap-box, ladies and gentlemen!


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

jendragon said:


> MegaTuxRacer had had a conversation with an SJ who identified himself as fiercely individualistic. I contended that it probably didn't generalize to SJs as a type, and we proceeded to get into a 30-minute Ti semantics debate over what 'fiercely individualistic' means. My perception is that there exists a continuum, as follows:
> 
> 1) fiercely individualistic--needing to be unique and apart from the group for purposes of self-identity. (i.e., enneagram 4)
> 2) individualistic--on principle, making choices without regard to group norms, whether the result is conformity or non-conformity (i.e., Ti of E5 variety)
> ...


I wish these descriptions had been in the OP. :wink:



I think for me I fluctuate between 2 and 3 depending on my mood and the situation. Generally, I want to be who I am, and I want to be accepted for who I am. I would prefer to spend time with those who are like me, though, because I enjoy that the most.

Of course, there are so many facets to who I am, so I'm never going to be able to spend time with people just like me. So, I have some friends who I connect with in some areas, and other friends that I connect with in others. So I usually end up spending times with different groups to connect with all of those different areas in some way. If I can't, then I just spend the time alone, or go on an internet forum.


So using the first definition, I would never be fiercely individualistic, because I don't have that need and personally there would be no point to it. I don't feel a need to be completely different than anyone else, because as a whole person I already am. I don't mind having things in common with others, and in general I prefer to be able to connect with others with those different commonalities.

I think it's possible for an SJ to be fiercely individualistic based on that definition, but I think it would be rare. I actually think this is probably true for all J types, actually, since extroverted judging functions tend to seek external consistency.


I think it's P types who tend to feel "trapped" more by having to be like others or having to follow rules.


I agree with you that that 4th group is not helpful for anyone, because it's someone who doesn't really know themselves or is not comofortable being different.


I think one difference with SJs, though, is our practicality. To me, there's a big difference between conforming out of comfort and comforming/cooperating to get something done. When you have a group of people and they have to complete a task together by a certain time, they're going to have to work together in some way, usually. This doesn't mean they all have to be exactly the same, but they're probably going to have some common agreements so they're not all going in completely different directions. The problem is that they probably won't all agree on some of these things, so everyone is probably going to have to compromise to a degree for the sake of completing the task.


That is the area where I think the "fiercely individualistic" person can be problematic. If their need to be an individual is so strong that they're not willing to sacrifice some of their wants in order to get something done, then they just become a hindrance.

This is also true in regards to things like common courtesy. We can't all do whatever we want all of the time or we're going to bother each other.


So I think one difference between SJs and Ns is that SJs probably tend to place the practicality of a situation over their need to be individualistic. I think Ns probably tend to focus more on the idea itself, because that's where their minds tend to stick to.


It's like you said, though...because our society is so connected now, I think the practical needs of life are thrown at Ns all of the time to where they get overwhelmed by it, so they probably feel a stronger need to get away and be more individualistic.



So it's possible that the SJ friend mentioned viewed himself as fiercely individualistic because he didn't view putting practicality first as a sacrifice of invidualism. 

I also think ESTJs sometimes have a way of putting this practicality so high that they don't really care if it makes others angry, and they may see a lot of other people who do care....so I can see an ESTJ feeling like they're more individualistic in the aspect that they're going to do what's right for them and not have a problem with others disagreeing. 


So I think that's the thing...Ns view individualism on a larger scale than SJs probably do. SJs probably tend to look at in terms of context of how they interact with others on a day-to-day basis. I think this practicality means that SJs automatically comform to certain things and don't even think about it...it's just a natural thing, so they don't really view it as conforming.


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## WickedQueen (Jun 1, 2009)

I think 'fiercely individualistic' is just another name for 'selfish'.

I'm a very independent person. 
I don't like sharing my things with others, even with my own siblings or best friends. I don't like to be a follower. And despite the fact that I usually voted/chosen for various leadership positions since kindergarten, I actually do not prefer to be a leader either, simply because I don't like the idea of taking the responsibility of other people and conforming to their wills. I just want to be left alone and doing my own thing, chasing my own goals, reaching my own dreams. I have various circles of friends. I jump from one circle to another, according to my mood. I'm welcomed in those circles, yet I'm not one of them.

I'm a very private person (despite being an extrovert). 
I don't like sharing most of my emotions and my certain thoughts. I have a high demand for personal space, to the point that I demand a separate room from my partner. I don't have the need to be understood, I just want my privacy and my freedom to be respected.

I'm an opinionated person. 
I respect other people's opinion, as long as it does not derived from close-mindedness or lack of knowledge. On the other hand, I also want my opinion to be respected, no matter how different it is from the pack. Many people IRL said I'm weird, simply because I have my own opinions and decisions that are unusual for them, sometimes even too.... _extreme _for them. A PerC member -whom I don't even know of, nor acknowledge his existence before- told another member that I have a 'confrontational style'.

I'm stubborn.
I don't compromise. It's my way or no way. Other people who stand in my way will be forced to do what I want, or else I will destroy them to ashes.


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## Pyrocide (Dec 13, 2012)

No, not really. Do you, NT?

I'm quite an individual in some ways, crowdist in others. Really, I just go with my gut ya. I don't care for individualism.


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## jendragon (Aug 28, 2012)

Pyrocide said:


> No, not really. Do you, NT?


Yeah, mostly. See previous post.


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## Pyrocide (Dec 13, 2012)

Maybe NT = fiercely individualitic, SJ = not so muchh, SP = not so much either, NF = different kind of individualist

Though these Kiersey temperaments still seem a bit strange to me.


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## jendragon (Aug 28, 2012)

Pyrocide said:


> Maybe NT = fiercely individualitic, SJ = not so muchh, SP = not so much either, NF = different kind of individualist
> 
> Though these Kiersey temperaments still seem a bit strange to me.


Somewhat, but I don't think the need for individualism is a strict corollary of Kiersey temperaments. Although I'd bet that there's a better corolation between individualism and introverting your primary judgement function--i.e., being an S/NP. Js of any type probably feel less of a need for that, in general. My guess.

What I really wanted to find out with this thread was if SJs had a different sense of what individualism was than I do, and might therefore consider themselves' fiercely individualistic' in a way that I had not imagined.


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## Pyrocide (Dec 13, 2012)

Well sure, if I can imagine a different kind of individualism which I fit fiercely, then I will say I am so.

Si dominant, very much so -> individualism through introversion. 
Irrational -> less decisive, goes with the flow
Si = has a sociail feedback portion, not so individualistic
However specialty can be very individualised.

ESTJ is fiercely individualistic in the sense that they are T dominant and so should be highly egocentric in Big 5.
ESFJ would not likely be described as fiercely individualistic, but who knows.


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## Liontiger (Jun 2, 2009)

I'd say I'm fiercely individualistic in the sense that I don't appreciate anyone dictating my life or even trying to give me too much advice when I don't ask for it (unfortunately). So I suppose the correct word isn't individualistic but _autonomous._I appreciate and strive for autonomy. Now, this doesn't have to be compromised in order to fit into a group. Ideally, anyways. If I'm with the right friends, I can feel free to go about my business as I please without anyone trying to influence me. I think associating with those kinds of people is where I really thrive. I love being part of a group and contributing to it. Just don't try to peer pressure me into anything more substantial than pigging out on cookies or procrastinating, 'else I'll get upset.

Now, considering the aspect of individualism that implies setting yourself apart from everyone else, I'm more of a conformist. I pick out my clothes with current style in mind, I look outside myself to form opinions, and I subconsciously downplay aspects of myself that I assume others won't like (until we get to know each other better). I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to draw from what's already out there or fostering connections by showing your best sides. I just have to remember to check in with myself and make sure I'm not getting too caught up in it.


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## fihe (Aug 30, 2012)

individualistic, yes. fiercely so, no. unfortunately, being too individualistic means not being accepted by society, which is no good for one trying to establish a career.


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## Devalight (May 27, 2012)

I think its a rare person that doesn't have some contradictory impulses.

Yes, I am individualistic - which to me means I don't go with what society says is popular or trendy. Just because the neighbor has something doesn't mean I want one. There is an old expression "keeping up with the Joneses" which means a materialistic kind of value system which seems to be what most people in my country do. Its proper, it seems, to want more and more stuff.

On the other hand I do like to belong to groups, but they are groups that most members of this society would never consider belonging to. I like to be with people that share a common interest with me. 

Although I am individualistic, I drop this when I am at work. I like to work in a subordinate position and not in a leadership role. It is difficult at times.


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## Mammon (Jul 12, 2012)

WickedQueen said:


> I'm stubborn.
> I don't compromise. It's my way or no way. Other people who stand in my way will be forced to do what I want, or else I will destroy them to ashes.


Wow lol that's quite the way of being ^.^

I don't know. Infact, before I knew and looked into personality types I never really thought about it o.o I just always prided myself for being me. Whenever I forced myself out of me, I was disappointed. Like I just threw myself off of a bridge. I find it important to be me and not change myself just for an applause or whatever. Because, frankly, fuck you and your applause. If it fits with the rest. Ok. If it does not. Ok.
The 'fuck you' was not directed at anyone lol it was just for trying to explain ^.^

Trying to be different for the sake of different is absurd to me. Different to me is not individual.

Hmm the mass likes and wears yellow shirts. I mustn't wear yellow shirts and hate them. -How's that individualism?

The mass likes and wears yellow shirts. I do too.
The mass says yellow shirts are for **** and shuns yellow shirts. I disagree and still enjoy wearing yellow shirts.
That, to me, is individualism. To be able to think for yourself.

In this sense, yes. I try to be fiercely individualistic.


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## Daniel_James_Maher (Feb 11, 2013)

I agree with you Fern @Fern
I wouldn't think about this kind of thing normally, but I have always considered myself normal but unusual. That is I considered others to be play acting to please others while I did what I saw as right or appropriate. The irony is that the others who were apparently trying to be individualistic and non-conformist all did it in sub-cultures, so they weren't being individualists at all. But I was trying to be proper and I was the unique one. Another irony is that teachers sometimes criticized me for this, most appreciated my obedience, but some thought I had some kind of problem.
Conforming? No way! Fiercely individualistic? No, unlike everyone else! Duty-fulfilling? Yes.


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