# dating your opposite: yes, no, whatever?



## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

mirrorghost said:


> because i thought i may have misread and then made a completely pointless response!
> 
> i still don't get your response, but that's ok  i haven't had a chance to go re-read yet.


o.o oh, ok, have fun then :3


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

intp_gurl said:


> Well there are different subtypes. One entp is different from another. Socionics takes this into account.
> 
> right dual type, but wrong subtype leads to more misunderstandings.





intp_gurl said:


> In socionics, Esfj is the dual for intj.


Just accept that MBTI is simply less accurate than Socionics and post here!: Socionics Forum


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## Stasis (May 6, 2014)

intp_gurl said:


> In socionics, Esfj is the dual for intj.


Oh, thanks for informing me.

I get along well with ESFJs so I guess it could work for me but I still prefer ENTJ or ESTJ.


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## Stasis (May 6, 2014)

Bugs said:


> I'm not sold on socionics. It seems like a theory constructed on the saying ' opposites attract'. Sure there can be some initial attraction but I always ask myself the question ' do couples tend to split up more because they are too similar to too different?' Socionics just switches some letters and says viola , a match!


Not sure about actual stats but I know I would be more tempted to end a relationship if we had too many differences. 

I don't think opposites attract for me.


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## Bugs (May 13, 2014)

EDLC said:


> Not sure about actual stats but I know I would be more tempted to end a relationship if we had too many differences.
> 
> I don't think opposites attract for me.


I agree with you.


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## intp_gurl (Mar 8, 2014)

Yes, thats why duals who have the most in common, last.

a dual is a complement, not an opposite.

its like your the right hand, the dual is the left. It seems like the opposite, but in reality the left assists the right. Like when buttoning a shirt.

its not that you are incapable or incomplete as a righthand. Your a complete individual on your own. But with your left hand you feel more whole.

hey, im a very skeptical intp. So if I didnt experience it, then socionics would have remained a theory for me. Once you attract one dual, then you know for next time. Also, dualizing takes time. It took me two years to dualize. It starts off usually with you discounting the other person, whereas other relationships start strong and fizzle.

That's just my personal experience. Others may have had something different.


Bugs said:


> I agree with you.


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## Bugs (May 13, 2014)

intp_gurl said:


> Yes, thats why duals who have the most in common, last.
> 
> a dual is a complement, not an opposite.
> 
> ...


You can use the hand example for any partner really. For me I would prefer she perceives and judges the world much the same way I do. I also think shared core values are a must. Recently I was fortunate enough to find this partner and she is actually the same type as me! ( go figure) I've dated my dual before according to what socionics would suggest and I've felt nothing special there. 

Speaking from experience I think the biggest problem I have with socionic dual suggestions are the 'S' when I am an 'N'. Please understand this isn't typism as I have nothing against S but to be in a close intimate relationship it starts to become something of a problem. The fact that we fundamentally perceive the world differently is huge. Not only do I have to deal with the fact that she may judge matters differently than I or that she may be more cautious and planning rather than spontaneous but I also have to explain how I see the world because its so different!


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## intp_gurl (Mar 8, 2014)

Before you experience it it is hard to conceive. Like I said, explaining a color to someone who is blind.

once you get over the fact that this person is a sensor, and your an intuitive, then the barrier is lifted. You then know what your duals are and you can attract one much easier, if you want to.

you perceive the world differently, yes....but you perceive the same things.

like two people describing an elephant from different perspectives. Less misunderstandings happen because you are on two sides of the same animal, so to speak.

so unless you go through it.....it's hard to explain. Once you do, then you can relate. It usually takes a long time getting of the ground for most people.


a partner who is the same type as you is called your identity. Less misunderstandings also. But the easiest, most therapeutic is the dual.


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## intp_gurl (Mar 8, 2014)

If your in a relationship, then you work it out, and you stick together. 

If you're not in a relationship, then what's the harm of trying to find a dual. Worst case you break up, best case you don't. Either way, you live learn, and adapt.


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## Gentleman (Jun 14, 2014)

EDLC said:


> Oh, thanks for informing me.
> 
> I get along well with ESFJs so I guess it could work for me but I still prefer ENTJ or ESTJ.


If you have no issues with translating, MBTI INTJ's dual would be MBTI ESFP. The idea is that you use the same functions with a different priority. You compliment each other and you're similar enough to understand, respect, and coexist with one other. Socionics doesn't say that your opposite is your ideal match; MBTI "opposites" aren't really opposites.

INTJ functions:








ESFP functions:









Your truest "opposite" would be ISFJ, who extroverts what you introvert, introverts what you extrovert, and does so in an opposite order:









I could never see myself getting along with an ESFJ. They're uncomfortable when I don't use Fe, and I'm uncomfortable when I use Fe. Nothing personal, our types just aren't compatible and we drive each other nuts. Are you certain that you're an INTJ? Are you certain that the people you were interacting with were ESFJs? INFJs and INTPs frequently mistype as us. If you're an MBTI INTP, your dual would be MBTI ESFJ, so you getting along with ESFJs would make sense. If you're an MBTI INFJ, your good relations with ESFJs would still make sense, because you'd be the ESFJ's "supervisor", meaning you're always in a more favorable position in respect to them.

This guy has a pretty interesting description of it:





Personally I'm not sure if I buy the theory, as I don't have much experience with my supposed "dual", the ESFP. I do know that I never get along with SFJs. It seems like sound reasoning, though.


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## sacrosanctsun (May 20, 2014)

dandere said:


> I agree, but when things fall into place after everything happens naturally, it's soothing. But, depending on the person, it could ruin it.
> 
> ''OH, So that's why they like me?! Because mbtimbtimbtimbtimbtimbtimbti?!''


For overall chemistry between types, I agree. 
Personally, I think the best part about dating people is getting to know an individual specifically. Their quirky likes, dislikes, what they daydream/fret about, how they communicate, ect...

The movie Amelie does a great job of portraying these. I can't seem to find clips of the video that explain other people's odd yet simple life pleasures.


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## intp_gurl (Mar 8, 2014)

I'm intp in both socionics and mbti. So if you understand functions, then you can use that. If you don't then you will have to go by description. I've been with my conflict before, and somehow even the way I walk is upsetting to my conflict. On the other hand, my dual doesn't even notice I'm odd.



Stampede said:


> If you have no issues with translating, MBTI INTJ's dual would be MBTI ESFP. The idea is that you use the same functions with a different priority. You compliment each other and you're similar enough to understand, respect, and coexist with one other. Socionics doesn't say that your opposite is your ideal match; MBTI "opposites" aren't really opposites.
> 
> INTJ functions:
> 
> ...


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## intp_gurl (Mar 8, 2014)

Yeah, dual is like I'm from mars, your from mars ....holy sh*t, I'm in love. Like a soul mate feeling. A deep soul to soul bonding.

Each dual pair is different, some even bicker alot but are inseperable. Some never bicker at all. Each person has their own feeling regarding duality........the rest of humanity is mute.....the dual understands you. The dual says and does the right thing when you need it.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

intp_gurl said:


> Yeah, dual is like I'm from mars, your from mars ....holy sh*t, I'm in love. Like a soul mate feeling. A deep soul to soul bonding.
> 
> Each dual pair is different, some even bicker alot but are inseperable. Some never bicker at all. Each person has their own feeling regarding duality........the rest of humanity is mute.....the dual understands you. The dual says and does the right thing when you need it.


Well said.


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## Doc Dangerstein (Mar 8, 2013)

> May I suggest you try and meet a nice comfortable artisan ISFP girl next time? Give it a shot, nothing to lose.


... dude! That's the thing ... I love smart, witty SP girls. 

... some of my closest friends growing up were SJs ... they were amazing friends but I could never see myself dating any of them. Okay they were guys, but even if they were women and had the most perfect bodies I could see myself losing interest after the thrill of initial attraction faded. Maybe things would be different were I do meet an SJ who believed in conserving the same thoughts and values I was interested in exploring. But I could see that becoming a business relationship quickly. What really confused my is ... well, my introverted sensing being different from an ISFJ/ISTJs and closer to ISFP/ISTP after the port to socionics. And let's not kid ourselves, we don't have the official MBTI manuals and the definitions floating around the internet are vague. I remember Jung's own definition of Si also being incomplete in many respects. I could see his talk of lucidity and surrealism being closer our experience NPs rather than SJs. Dali, Matta, Braque, Mehoffer ... musically, I was always the one wanting to play the ethereal composers (Debussy, Scriabin, John Ireland) or the strictest of classicists (Haydn, Mozart). Very much attuned to thinking this was about the senses. Then you had the guardian's Si which is ... well, a mystery almost. Measuring and collecting data, remembering how things were, stasis ... definitely not me. When I think of comfort I think of life affirming indulgence and not security (not compulsion, there is a difference. Compulsion being a life denying path to slavery).

... but yeah. SPs are great ... they really get me out of my head and DOING stuff. I had a friend tell me that I need to find someone to help me get structured and organized ... truth is I would only get frustrated and them to please stop acting like my parents. Because they tried and failed. I often hear the guys talking about INxJs, ENFPs or INTPs. Totally down for that too ... but yeah, that exactly why I started really questioning everything because I noticed that no one shared my preference until you've nailed it down.

Speaking of which I'm still interested in reading some Kempinski ... I'm really curious how much is inspired by Claude Shannon's theory of information and his logarithmic calculations of efficiency, content and redundancy. Because it makes sense to think of human contact in terms of sender-medium-receiver.


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## Stasis (May 6, 2014)

@Stampede Thanks for the insight and the video. I'll definitely check it out.



> I could never see myself getting along with an ESFJ. They're uncomfortable when I don't use Fe, and I'm uncomfortable when I use Fe. Nothing personal, our types just aren't compatible and we drive each other nuts. Are you certain that you're an INTJ?


We know different ESFJs. That may be the main difference. 

The ESFJs I know are mature and healthy. I'm not saying we agree on everything and that our communication is ideal (it took quite some time to even figure out HOW to communicate) but there is respect and that's always a good thing in a relationship. 

I'm certain that I'm an INTJ but if you want to make a case for another type, I'm open. 



> Are you certain that the people you were interacting with were ESFJs? INFJs and INTPs frequently mistype as us. If you're an MBTI INTP, your dual would be MBTI ESFJ, so you getting along with ESFJs would make sense. If you're an MBTI INFJ, your good relations with ESFJs would still make sense, because you'd be the ESFJ's "supervisor", meaning you're always in a more favorable position in respect to them.


They are ESFJs and I'm an INTJ. 

It's funny that you mention INFJ because I'm very bothered by their use of Fe. 

I guess it comes down to actual real life experiences. On paper, I should dislike ESFJs but the ones I know are loyal, strong, and not as irrational as they are rumored to be. These qualities do not merit dislike.

The INFJs I know are manipulative and emotionally unstable. 

So I guess I don't fit the stereotypical mold for an INTJ when it comes to who I should and shouldn't get along with. I don't think this means that I'm not an INTJ though.


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## Gentleman (Jun 14, 2014)

EDLC said:


> @Stampede Thanks for the insight and the video. I'll definitely check it out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How do you internalize information? Do you internally analyze things using cold hard objective logic, or do things have a subjective meaning to them?

If someone asked you to define "lighthearted", would your instinctual response be to think "What does he mean by lighthearted?" or would you immediately think *dictionary definition of lighthearted*?

Do you appear to be more cold and logical than you actually are on the outside, while internally you're more soft and emotional, or do you appear to be more soft and emotional on the outside, while internally you're judging everyone objectively and logically? Neither INTJs nor INTPs have very strong Fe, but one appears to be more accommodating than the other.

If you believe the statistics, female INTJs make up around 0.8% of the female population. If you're an MBTI INTP, INFJs are your "benefactors" so your attitude towards them would make sense. And ESFJs are your duals, so that would make sense as well.


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## intp_gurl (Mar 8, 2014)

Yeah, on paper your dual seems like nothing you would want. In real life, it's a different story.



EDLC said:


> @Stampede Thanks for the insight and the video. I'll definitely check it out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Stasis (May 6, 2014)

Stampede said:


> How do you internalize information? Do you internally *analyze things using cold hard objective logic*, or do things have a subjective meaning to them?


This.



> If someone asked you to define "lighthearted", would your instinctual response be to think "What does he mean by lighthearted?" or would you immediately think **dictionary definition of lighthearted**?


This.



> *Do you appear to be more cold and logical than you actually are on the outside, while internally you're more soft and emotional*, or do you appear to be more soft and emotional on the outside, while internally you're judging everyone objectively and logically? Neither INTJs nor INTPs have very strong Fe, but one appears to be more accommodating than the other.


This. I have a soft spot inside for people I trust but I'm not one to express emotion often. 



> If you believe the statistics, female INTJs make up around 0.8% of the female population. If you're an MBTI INTP, INFJs are your "benefactors" so your attitude towards them would make sense. And ESFJs are your duals, so that would make sense as well.


I've met some INFJs that are unworthy of my time or friendship and I've met some worthy ESFJs. It's not impossible.

What's the verdict?


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## Stasis (May 6, 2014)

intp_gurl said:


> Yeah, on paper your dual seems like nothing you would want. In real life, it's a different story.


Good point.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

Tbh I find Se so draining and annoying, and Se doms wear me the fck out.

I don't know about dating an ESFP. That would be overbearing.

I feel like we would have vastly different interests and ways we enjoy to spend our time. And I feel as though our communication would suck -- we would both have unfulfilled needs.

They would need to extravert Se stuff and I wouldn't want to listen to it, and I would need to extrovert my Te and they would not want to listen to it.

It just would not work out at all.


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## intp_gurl (Mar 8, 2014)

Very cute stampede and edlc. You had each other's backs, just like a dual would. You cover for each other. But since your the same type, socionics calls that identity. Duals are the most therapeutic, identity, the second.


I really liked that.


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## Gentleman (Jun 14, 2014)

emberfly said:


> Tbh I find Se so draining and annoying, and Se doms wear me the fck out.
> 
> I don't know about dating an ESFP. That would be overbearing.
> 
> ...


That's my instinctual reaction as well, but I've never really had one in my life so I can't say definitively that we wouldn't get along. My mother is one, but we haven't interacted much in a long time. They seem to be so rare on the internet, and I spend most of my time on the internet.


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## Chest (Apr 14, 2014)

still think it's bad idea, when was the last time you saw an INTP date an ESFJ for fuck's sake?


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## Gentleman (Jun 14, 2014)

Chest said:


> still think it's bad idea, when was the last time you saw an INTP date an ESFJ for fuck's sake?


Yeah, I'm skeptical. You'd think that identical relations would be ideal.


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## intp_gurl (Mar 8, 2014)

Chest said:


> still think it's bad idea, when was the last time you saw an INTP date an ESFJ for fuck's sake?


Hilarious.


well let's put it this way. If you have experienced your conflictor and understand that its like hitting your head against a wall......the experiencing your dual is like falling from heaven. You do get that I wish I had known you before or sooner with your dual.

you just have to make sure your a socionics intp.....your dual is esfp
If your socionics intj.....your dual is esfj. The difference is one is your dual, the other your conflictor.


I'm mbti and socionics intp. My dual is esfp. Some people are different in the different systems I guess.


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## Chest (Apr 14, 2014)

intp_gurl said:


> Hilarious.
> 
> 
> well let's put it this way. If you have experienced your conflictor and understand that its like hitting your head against a wall......the experiencing your dual is like falling from heaven. You do get that I wish I had known your dual before or sooner.
> ...


I was talking in MBTI terms, so let me rephrase it, when was the last time you saw an LII date.....wait a minute


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## Gentleman (Jun 14, 2014)

intp_gurl said:


> Hilarious.
> 
> 
> well let's put it this way. If you have experienced your conflictor and understand that its like hitting your head against a wall......the experiencing your dual is like falling from heaven. You do get that I wish I had known you before or sooner with your dual.
> ...


The consensus is that when you translate from MBTI to socionics, you always switch the last letter for introverts. I.E socionics INFp would be most similar to MBTI INFJ. Socionics INTj would be most similar to MBTI INTP. It's odd that you would score as INTP in both. That makes me even more skeptical of everything.

From what you're saying, we have the same conflictor/dual, even though you're an MBTI INTP and I'm an MBTI INTJ. That doesn't make any sense. I'm confused.


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## intp_gurl (Mar 8, 2014)

T.v example of duals: big bang leonard & penny ( nerd to cheerleader)
identity: amy & sheldon. ( nerd to nerd)


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## Chest (Apr 14, 2014)

intp_gurl said:


> T.v example of duals: big bang leonard & penny ( nerd to cheerleader)
> identity: amy & sheldon. ( nerd to nerd)


leonard INTP (myers briggs)>>INTj socionics
penny ESTP (myers briggs)>>ESTp socionics

edit: or maybe... 

leonard INFJ (myers briggs)>>INFp socionics
penny ESTP (myers briggs)>>ESTp socionics...if this is the case they're duals


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## intp_gurl (Mar 8, 2014)

Chest said:


> leonard INTP (myers briggs)>>INTj socionics
> penny ESTP (myers briggs)>>ESTp socionics


I don't know what their exact types are. What I'm trying to point out is.....the one person you think is plain, dull, and would not get you. That person you passed by because you thought isn't your mind mate, your league status, your whatever you value.....is probably your dual. This person opens to you a whoke world of possibilities that even your own mind can't dream, because that's not how you think. Their the sensor, your the intuitive or vice versa.

duals seem like they shouldn't work, but they do. You need to find the right one, experience it, the you can decide what you like best. If you haven't gone through it, then its just an on paper type thing. If you have experienced it....even if you have experienced a conflictor relationship.........then you at least have given credibility to socionics. It's like yeah....I was with a conflictor....this is my experience. So if you experience conflict and its right, there was conflict....why is it so hard to believe the opposite is also true. The belief in duality. That there is someone out there who is very different from me, but understands me like no other.


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## Chest (Apr 14, 2014)

intp_gurl said:


> I don't know what their exact types are. What I'm trying to point out is.....the one person you think is plain, dull, and would not get you. That person you passed by because you thought isn't your mind mate, your league status, your whatever you value.....is probably your dual. This person opens to you a whoke world of possibilities that even your own mind can't dream, because that's not how you think. Their the sensor, your the intuitive or vice versa.
> 
> duals seem like they shouldn't work, but they do. You need to find the right one, experience it, the you can decide what you like best. If you haven't gone through it, then its just an on paper type thing. If you have experienced it....even if you have experienced a conflictor relationship.........then you at least have given credibility to socionics. It's like yeah....I was with a conflictor....this is my experience. So if you experience conflict and its right, there was conflict....why is it so hard to believe the opposite is also true. The belief in duality. That there is someone out there who is very different from me, but understands me like no other.


sorry I edited, check it out I think leonard may be INFp in socionics and penny ESTp which would make them duals


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## intp_gurl (Mar 8, 2014)

Its just clear to me on the show one is an intuitive, the other a sensor. One lives in the present, the other in the future and past.


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## Gentleman (Jun 14, 2014)

intp_gurl said:


> Its just clear to me on the show one is an intuitive, the other a sensor. One lives in the present, the other in the future and past.


What I don't get is, you're an MBTI INTP. You're saying you were with an ESFP and it was great. You're saying you were with an ESFJ and it was horrible. As an MBTI INTP, your conflictor is supposedly ESFP, and your dual is supposedly ESFJ. You're telling me the opposite is true. *My* dual is supposed to be ESFP.

So from my understanding, one of three things must be true:

1. You mistyped on the socionics test. You're actually a socionics INTj, MBTI INTP. 
2. You mistyped the ESFP and the ESFJ in question. The ESFP was actually ESFJ, and the ESFJ was actually ESFP. If this is true, the sociotypes theory still makes sense.
3. The sociotypes theory doesn't make sense.


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## Aelthwyn (Oct 27, 2010)

I think perhaps some types would handle their opposite better than others. Personally I think it would be a pretty bad idea for most INFPs since we tend to relate to others by identifying with them, focusing on similarities if we can find them - someone who is too different will result in feeling the gap between us, and that's not cozy. Also, given the idea that our culture is mainly ESTJ-ish, many of us have had about enough of that and are sick of dealing with our opposite, so it'd be nice to have someone similar for our nearest&dearest/home-life. 

Personally I think it's more practical to be 'ballanced' by your opposite in friendships rather than a romantic relationship, because the constant closeness tends to turn into a lot of chaffing, and it's easy to start taking for granted the good stuff and just keep arguing over all the little issues that you get tired of having to put up with. A close relationship with your opposite could be good, but I think it would take a considerable amount of effort to maintain it healthily, while relationships with people who are closer to your type are likely to be less difficult. 

A lot of it depends on what the individuals are looking for in a relationship, what aspects are the most important. There are things your opposite can give, and things they can't - you have to determine which you can live without in a partner, and which personality clashes you can put up with for the long term in close quarters.


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## Doc Dangerstein (Mar 8, 2013)

Aelthwyn said:


> I think perhaps some types would handle their opposite better than others. Personally I think it would be a pretty bad idea for most INFPs since we tend to relate to others by identifying with them, focusing on similarities if we can find them - someone who is too different will result in feeling the gap between us, and that's not cozy. Also, given the idea that our culture is mainly ESTJ-ish, many of us have had about enough of that and are sick of dealing with our opposite, so it'd be nice to have someone similar for our nearest&dearest/home-life.


... that's a really good point. Do you think it makes more of a difference because Fi/Te and Ti/Fe are opposing judging functions? I can't say I can see myself with an MBTI defined ISxJ but I'm not negating the possibility. Maybe there's just less friction in opposing perceiving functions. Interesting I always felt Canadian culture is too ISFJ/ESFJ in many respects and I don't see Ontarians being that different from Americans and we're about 40% of Canada population wise. You think we might be projecting our weaknesses onto our culture?




> Personally I think it's more practical to be 'ballanced' by your opposite in friendships rather than a romantic relationship, because the constant closeness tends to turn into a lot of chaffing, and it's easy to start taking for granted the good stuff and just keep arguing over all the little issues that you get tired of having to put up with. A close relationship with your opposite could be good, but I think it would take a considerable amount of effort to maintain it healthily, while relationships with people who are closer to your type are likely to be less difficult.
> 
> A lot of it depends on what the individuals are looking for in a relationship, what aspects are the most important. There are things your opposite can give, and things they can't - you have to determine which you can live without in a partner, and which personality clashes you can put up with for the long term in close quarters.


Again, true ... that's exactly the main point I want to make with this thread. The theories are great and I love talking about them, but no one ever asked the most important question "So, who exactly do you want to be with?" And regardless of who you choose it's not exactly fair to your partner to have to fulfil all your emotional and social needs. But, that could be the extrovert talking.


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## ALongTime (Apr 19, 2014)

I personally subscribe to the dual theory, based on experience.

I've never had a romantic relationship with an ESTJ, but I worked closely with one once, and it was really successful. We seemed completely different, but both seemed to instinctively be able to help each other in exactly the way each other wanted to be helped. We never had any conflicts, even though it seemed that we would being totally different on the surface, we always managed to avoid annoying each other. It was only years later that I learnt about socionics and it occurred to me that he was an almost textbook LSE and I'm sure now that's what a dual relationship is. I would definitely go for an ESTJ as a relationship.

But I don't consider ESTJ to be our opposite, I think probably xSTPs are the most different and difficult to get on with for me (but I wouldn't avoid a relationship based on personality type alone, it would just be more effort). A healthy ESTJ is actually really comfortable to be around, as an INFP.


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## NatureChaser (May 22, 2014)

As long as he's not a TJ I'd try it. I wouldn't mind ENFP


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## Aelthwyn (Oct 27, 2010)

Spastic Origami said:


> Do you think it makes more of a difference because Fi/Te and Ti/Fe are opposing judging functions? I can't say I can see myself with an MBTI defined ISxJ but I'm not negating the possibility. Maybe there's just less friction in opposing perceiving functions.


In my experience T vs. F causes the most damaging clashes. Arguments between the two tend to spiral out of control, each side provoking the other, often unintentionally, while attempting to sort things out. Opposite sides are more likely to truly consider the other side as 'wrong', and to take things more personally and become more deeply 'scarred'. 

While S vs. N clashes are simply confusing and make for a sense of disconnect even if exactly what's going on isn't apparent. Often an 'argument' turns out to be a case of talking about two different things and once this becomes clear the argument ends. While differing approaches in this realm can be uncomfortable to work with they somehow seem to be taken a little less personally than T/F differences (not that they can't be taken personally, just... less often/strongly). It also seems to me that this difference is more likely to prevent people from becoming close in the first place, while the T/F one seems more likely to seem okay when you're not that close but then becomes a serious problem once you're already invested in eachother and your expectations for the relationship shift a bit. 

This _could_ also be because my dominant is a judging function making those seem more personal, while my auxiliary is a perceiving function making those a bit less 'core' traits. 



> Interesting I always felt Canadian culture is too ISFJ/ESFJ in many respects and I don't see Ontarians being that different from Americans and we're about 40% of Canada population wise. You think we might be projecting our weaknesses onto our culture?


I've just heard it said by others. Personally I can see several different ones in different areas of the culture, of course I could be wrong but how I perceive it is:
ESTJ is the business/school side of things - how we're 'supposed' to 'run' our lives - how we're supposed to deal with hardship (suck it up and don't make a scene)
ESFP is the young social side of things - we're supposed to be outgoing, playful, and seek vivid sensory experiences and risks
ESFJ is the mature social side of things - we're supposed to have full calendars, actively support important causes (fly the right banners), keep up with trends, know the social rules



> ...the most important question "So, who exactly do you want to be with?" And regardless of who you choose it's not exactly fair to your partner to have to fulfil all your emotional and social needs. But, that could be the extrovert talking.


Yep, you can't expect one person to be everything you need, all the time. I think it works better to consider what traits you need specifically in your SO and which kinds of interaction can be fullfilled through friends and family.


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## Gentleman (Jun 14, 2014)

Aelthwyn said:


> I think perhaps some types would handle their opposite better than others. Personally I think it would be a pretty bad idea for most INFPs since we tend to relate to others by identifying with them, focusing on similarities if we can find them - someone who is too different will result in feeling the gap between us, and that's not cozy. Also, given the idea that our culture is mainly ESTJ-ish, many of us have had about enough of that and are sick of dealing with our opposite, so it'd be nice to have someone similar for our nearest&dearest/home-life.
> 
> Personally I think it's more practical to be 'ballanced' by your opposite in friendships rather than a romantic relationship, because the constant closeness tends to turn into a lot of chaffing, and it's easy to start taking for granted the good stuff and just keep arguing over all the little issues that you get tired of having to put up with. A close relationship with your opposite could be good, but I think it would take a considerable amount of effort to maintain it healthily, while relationships with people who are closer to your type are likely to be less difficult.
> 
> A lot of it depends on what the individuals are looking for in a relationship, what aspects are the most important. There are things your opposite can give, and things they can't - you have to determine which you can live without in a partner, and which personality clashes you can put up with for the long term in close quarters.


The thing is though, what MBTI makes out to be your opposite isn't really your opposite. As an INFP your opposite would be ISTP, speaking in cognitive functions.

INFP functional stack:









ISTP functional stack:










So yeah, socionics doesn't really say that "absolute opposites are ideal". That's a misconception.


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## Gentleman (Jun 14, 2014)

ALongTime said:


> I personally subscribe to the dual theory, based on experience.
> 
> I've never had a romantic relationship with an ESTJ, but I worked closely with one once, and it was really successful. We seemed completely different, but both seemed to instinctively be able to help each other in exactly the way each other wanted to be helped. We never had any conflicts, even though it seemed that we would being totally different on the surface, we always managed to avoid annoying each other. It was only years later that I learnt about socionics and it occurred to me that he was an almost textbook LSE and I'm sure now that's what a dual relationship is. I would definitely go for an ESTJ as a relationship.
> 
> But I don't consider ESTJ to be our opposite, I think probably xSTPs are the most different and difficult to get on with for me (but I wouldn't avoid a relationship based on personality type alone, it would just be more effort). A healthy ESTJ is actually really comfortable to be around, as an INFP.


I'll be honest, my mother is my dual, and she's always been my best friend in life. We seem to be totally different; she's a wild emotional extrovert and I'm a heavy stoic introvert, but we just "click" in some way that I can't describe. It seems like it'd be horrible, but it isn't in my experience.


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## intp_gurl (Mar 8, 2014)

Yes, I have experienced the ease of working together. It took some time for me, but you come to realize you make this amazing team, like a right hand and a left hand. This person without really putting effort knows how to help you in ways you personally would have never considered. There is an ease of relating to each other that doesn't happen with other relationships. In other relationships you have to put in more work.



ALongTime said:


> I personally subscribe to the dual theory, based on experience.
> 
> I've never had a romantic relationship with an ESTJ, but I worked closely with one once, and it was really successful. We seemed completely different, but both seemed to instinctively be able to help each other in exactly the way each other wanted to be helped. We never had any conflicts, even though it seemed that we would being totally different on the surface, we always managed to avoid annoying each other. It was only years later that I learnt about socionics and it occurred to me that he was an almost textbook LSE and I'm sure now that's what a dual relationship is. I would definitely go for an ESTJ as a relationship.
> 
> But I don't consider ESTJ to be our opposite, I think probably xSTPs are the most different and difficult to get on with for me (but I wouldn't avoid a relationship based on personality type alone, it would just be more effort). A healthy ESTJ is actually really comfortable to be around, as an INFP.


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## Gentleman (Jun 14, 2014)

intp_gurl said:


> Yes, I have experienced the ease of working together. It took some time for me, but you come to realize you make this amazing team, like a right hand and a left hand. This person without really putting effort knows how to help you in ways you personally would have never considered. There is an ease of relating to each other that doesn't happen with other relationships. In other relationships you have to put in more work.


As an MBTI INTP, your dual should be ESFJs though.


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## champion god flow (Jul 10, 2014)

I think I could date an ISFJ. They are by far the most tolerable SJs.


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## intp_gurl (Mar 8, 2014)

No, I always test as mbti intp regardless of what I do. Some people test same in both. I have lived with an esfj family member. Even my walk annoys this person. My esfp family member steps in usually to stop the misunderstandings. 


Stampede said:


> As an MBTI INTP, your dual should be ESFJs though.


my esfp family member and I never fight. We either come to an agreement or somehow work it through. With the esfj I just can't get through no matter how hard I try.


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## Gentleman (Jun 14, 2014)

intp_gurl said:


> No, I always test as mbti intp regardless of what I do. Some people test same in both. I have lived with an esfj family member. Even my walk annoys this person. My esfp family member steps in usually to stop the misunderstandings.


That's really weird. Aren't INTPs and INTJs different? Shouldn't our duals be different? I think either something is going wrong with our typing somewhere, or something is wrong with sociotypes.


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## intp_gurl (Mar 8, 2014)

Yes intj's and intp's are different. We have different processing styles.

I learned my type intially through mbti.....always comes out intp
then I learned socionics.....intertype relations....how I interact with others......still intp or ILI
then I discovered what subtype of ILI I am

now I understand myself better. Also I learn who are my best matches and who I'm more likely to conflict with.

the socionics website talks about switching from mbti to socionics types. Some people are the same in both.


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## Gentleman (Jun 14, 2014)

intp_gurl said:


> Yes, I have experienced the ease of working together. It took some time for me, but you come to realize you make this amazing team, like a right hand and a left hand. This person without really putting effort knows how to help you in ways you personally would have never considered. There is an ease of relating to each other that doesn't happen with other relationships. In other relationships you have to put in more work.


I just thought of a good analogy. If you've ever seen the anime The World God Only Knows, my relationship with my mother (my dual) is quite similar to the relationship between Keima and Elsie.


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## ALongTime (Apr 19, 2014)

intp_gurl said:


> my esfp family member and I never fight. We either come to an agreement or somehow work it through. With the esfj I just can't get through no matter how hard I try.


Yes, and what I found is even if we were opposed on something (the values of this ESTJ were sometimes really in conflict with mine!) it never lead to an open conflict or even annoyance. I even didn't always admire him as a person, but the relationship was always good.



intp_gurl said:


> Yes intj's and intp's are different. We have different processing styles.
> 
> I learned my type intially through mbti.....always comes out intp
> then I learned socionics.....intertype relations....how I interact with others......still intp or ILI
> ...


Yes... I never understood why that is and can't find a good explanation. MBTI INTP usually comes out as LII in socionics (or INTj as it's sometimes known, but that's just pointlessly confusing, I just stick to the three-letter names when talking about socionics). But sometimes it can be different and it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.


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## Aelthwyn (Oct 27, 2010)

Stampede said:


> The thing is though, what MBTI makes out to be your opposite isn't really your opposite. As an INFP your opposite would be ISTP, speaking in cognitive functions.


Yeah, I was thinking about mentioning the various interpretations of 'opposite' - to what degree or in which ways are we talking opposites. I know ESTJ has the same functions as INFP but in a different order, as opposed to types that don't share any functions. I just went with the ESTJ 'opposite' idea as it's what's usually suggested, and still doesn't sound like a good match to me. 

As someone else mentioned, though, STPs can seem exceptionally alien in their approach to life. Yet there are still some areas where i sense commonality which may override the specific functions. I've had an ISTP friend and sharing Introversion (regardless of Ti vs. Fi) we experienced a similar pace and focus of conversation, similar expectations for socializing - something I don't experience with the couple people I suspect are ESTJs. I think I would find _E_STPs much harder to deal with. Similarly, the ISTP has a kind of flexibility or willingness to not follow all the rules and expectations if they seem stupid - also something ESTJs have a harder time understanding about me (and which I'm reaally tired of fighting them on). But then when you focus on functions, I can enjoy Si reminiscing about experiences, while not really getting the Se enthusiasm over novel/extreme experiences. In my experience while Ti may be foreign it doesn't naturally attempt to invade my Fi the way Te and Fe both seem to, it feels less pushy so it can be easier to deal with. I think I would probably also have a hard time with ENFJs. It's a complicated thing.


my general theory on good types for INFPs (or at least me) goes something like this
Best possibilities: INFP, ENFP, ISFP, INTP, ENTP, (usually sense a connection with these, though can of course be exceptions)

Decent possibilities: ISTJ, INTJ, ESFP, INFJ, ISFJ, ISTP, (have been able to get along pretty well with some individuals)

Not-Likely possibilities: ENFJ, ESFJ, ESTJ, ENTJ, ESTP, (have naturally avoided these, usually seem intimidating and I sense a clash early on)


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## Alex Chan (Jun 17, 2014)

iHeartCats said:


> The opposite of me = INTP
> 
> Portrait of an INTP
> "INTPs live in the world of theoretical possibilities. They see everything in terms of how it could be improved, or what it could be turned into. They live primarily inside their own minds, having the ability to analyze difficult problems, identify patterns, and come up with logical explanations. They seek clarity in everything, and are therefore driven to build knowledge. They are the "absent-minded professors", who highly value intelligence and the ability to apply logic to theories to find solutions. They typically are so strongly driven to turn problems into logical explanations, that they live much of their lives within their own heads, and may not place as much importance or value on the external world. Their natural drive to turn theories into concrete understanding may turn into a feeling of personal responsibility to solve theoretical problems, and help society move towards a higher understanding."
> ...


I feel so rejected ;_;


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## iHeartCats (Jun 19, 2014)

Alex Chan said:


> I feel so rejected ;_;


Dnt cry we caen b friendz I dnt daet femalez anyway


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## Doc Dangerstein (Mar 8, 2013)

Aelthwyn said:


> In my experience T vs. F causes the most damaging clashes. Arguments between the two tend to spiral out of control, each side provoking the other, often unintentionally, while attempting to sort things out. Opposite sides are more likely to truly consider the other side as 'wrong', and to take things more personally and become more deeply 'scarred'.



... oh, that's just people being jerks to one another. Most of the time I can't tell whether someones T/F. I'm also very close to being a feeler myself and have tested as such in the past. It's usually a case of not listening, self righteousness and playing the victim card. Perhaps I'm an odd type; most of my clashes are often with Fe/Te dominants. Both can be very overwhelming and get on my nerves expecially when I want to step back and just think for a moment or two. Fi and Ti dominants I never had much of a problem with. Sometimes the hardest bridge to cross between myself and strong feelers is their need for cuddles. I much rather acknowledge someone's feelings by making them laugh, or making them tea or something so that we could talk about things once we both calmed down. People don't often see it, but this IS empathy. 

Sulking in foul emotion is reliving foul emotion and breeding more foul emotion. Sometimes I find it easier to understand ISFPs about emotional matters. I don't understand why. Maybe I'm expecting her Ne to be neutral and go a certain direction while she's expecting my intuition to flow from a place of feelings and morality ... that's just confusion. 



> While S vs. N clashes are simply confusing and make for a sense of disconnect even if exactly what's going on isn't apparent. Often an 'argument' turns out to be a case of talking about two different things and once this becomes clear the argument ends. While differing approaches in this realm can be uncomfortable to work with they somehow seem to be taken a little less personally than T/F differences (not that they can't be taken personally, just... less often/strongly). It also seems to me that this difference is more likely to prevent people from becoming close in the first place, while the T/F one seems more likely to seem okay when you're not that close but then becomes a serious problem once you're already invested in eachother and your expectations for the relationship shift a bit.


... true. Except I don't like how many SJs keep a running score on relationships. If I show kindness to somebody, it is my own choice and they don't owe my anything. If they show me kindness, it is their choice and have no right to demand things from me. Many relationships, dating and otherwise, I had with xSFJs eventually lead to this. Emotional bookkeeping is a huge turn off for me. I understand it might be necessary to call people out when they're taking advantage of you and those you care about but that is a specific case which demands action. I find it strange that those with whom I have a long history of annoyance would also be my dual ... hence the confusion and the thread. ISFPs/INFPs, I don't always notice at first but grow to really like them in spite of us being different. It's interesting that FreeBeer pointed out the incongruency of the functions because they've always been my soft spot.



> This could also be because my dominant is a judging function making those seem more personal, while my auxiliary is a perceiving function making those a bit less 'core' traits.


... and many Fi-dominants are also enneagram 4s. I'm 7-4-9, and still take many things personally ... I really don't but into the phrase: nothing personal, just business. Of course it's personal, and it's more personal because there's profit involved. ... anyway, I imagine a core 4 and an IxFP would feel more strongly about many things than I do. 



> I've just heard it said by others. Personally I can see several different ones in different areas of the culture, of course I could be wrong but how I perceive it is:
> ESTJ is the business/school side of things - how we're 'supposed' to 'run' our lives - how we're supposed to deal with hardship (suck it up and don't make a scene) : *micromanagers of any type can just leave, sucking it up never really accomplished anything. But if I'm getting a nice fat paycheck at the end of the month I could handle an occasional difficult client.*
> ESFP is the young social side of things - we're supposed to be outgoing, playful, and seek vivid sensory experiences and risks : *sure, so long as I do the things I want. Most parties/nightclubs are quite boring though.*
> ESFJ is the mature social side of things - we're supposed to have full calendars, actively support important causes (fly the right banners), keep up with trends, know the social rules :* long live the resistance. Can't be bothered with any of this.*
> ...


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## pukeyshibas (Dec 10, 2013)

It's weird. I can see myself being really good friends with an ESFJ. But I could never date one, I don't think it would work very well. I doubt most people could date their opposite.


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## intp_gurl (Mar 8, 2014)

Spastic Origami said:


> ...
> 
> Sulking in foul emotion is reliving foul emotion and breeding more foul emotion. Sometimes I find it easier to understand ISFPs about emotional matters. I don't understand why. Maybe I'm expecting her Ne to be neutral and go a certain direction while she's expecting my intuition to flow from a place of feelings and morality ... that's just confusion.


entp....isfp
intp....esfp
your complementary personality type (dual)


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## Doc Dangerstein (Mar 8, 2013)

intp_gurl said:


> entp....isfp
> intp....esfp
> your complementary personality type (dual)


... right. Here's where I'm lost. An ISFp in socionics is Si/Fe and an ISFP is MBTI is Fi/Se. I feel more in tune with MBTI ISFPs, that is Fi/Se than I do with MBTI ISFJs, meaning Si/Fe. Maybe Si/Fe has come to mean a different thing in socionics as MNiS or FreeBeer suggested. I started this thread thinking "Wait a sec, I really like a lot of Keirsey Artisans (SPs) I wonder why MBTI matches me with INFJs/INTJs and socionics with ISFJs. I don't see many people talking ENTP/ISxP and I wonder why that is the case." 

SEI in MBTI is closer to? and I'm weirdly compelled to hug one.

and reading this in ESI




> Many ESIs are inclined to see themselves as morally immaculate, and to behave as such whenever they can. They may pride themselves on their emotional sincerity, and when dealing with individuals they respect, they typically try to work out clashes through honest and forthright discussion. However, their sense of principled candor is sometimes marred by the conflicting emotions they experience.





> ESIs can also be rather traditional and conservative in their life outlook. They may tend to see others who interfere with the stability of their lifestyle as untrustworthy and flighty.




is ... well, enough reason to go home. I'm also reading this and thinking Keirsey's Guardians yet the functions spell Artisan. I noticed in talking to the Guardians in their forums their understand of Si and Ne are very different from my own. Also when talking in the ENxP forums about being in the inferior grip I completely understand and relate to what is being said. It seems there might be a gap in definitions. That said I'm willing to give MBTI the benefit of the doubt because I don't have their official manual.

Was it you who suggested ISFP qua Artisan as a good match over in the ENTP forum? Because I agree.


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## intp_gurl (Mar 8, 2014)

Yeah, on paper it may seem like your dual is too different from you to work. But when you find one who matches your personal criteria, like values and goals, it works in real life.


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