# Frustration vs. Rejection types - "What do I want?" vs. "What do they want?"



## Tater Tot (May 28, 2012)

*Frustration vs. Rejection types - "What do I want?" vs. "What do they want?"*

Found a new pattern, y'all. :crazy:

It's pretty much exactly what it sounds. The Frustration triad is oriented towards their own needs and desires, while the Rejection Triad is oriented towards the kinds of demands and expectations that will be made upon them.

Frustration Triad:
1: What does their superego want/not want, what is good and what is bad, what internal standards do they hold for themselves, etc.
4: What do others have that they do not, what would be necessary for them to feel 'fully functional' or 'complete' or 'okay' or whatever wording would be correct.
7: Most straightforward manifestation. What do they need to escape from anxiety, what will bring them satisfaction, etc.

Rejection Triad: 
8: What has the potential to hurt them, what challenges are they going to have to face, overcome, etc.
2: What is wanted from them in their community, what qualities are desirable, what will earn them love and attention..
5: What are they not capable of handling, what are they missing, (similar to 4) what should they be prepared for.

I don't have too keen of an understanding of most of the types in depth, so the descriptions aren't great, but you should get the gist. I still haven't really found a pattern like that for the Attachment Triad. :laughing:

What do you think? Accurate? Too much of a stretch?


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## hal0hal0 (Sep 1, 2012)

This is a good outline of object relations: Directional Theory

Remember that the frustration triad is also called the "ideal seeking" triad. 1s, 4s, and 7s can often set themselves up for failure with unrealistic expectations, standards, or needs. Shakespeare's line: "expectation is the root of all heartache" rings especially true for these types because their fixation is often centered around the anticipation of whatever they are trying to achieve/get, and these goals are often unrealistic and unattainable. For a 1, this tends to be a set of principles/standards to live by, with the hopes that doing so will ensure the 1's self-worth and survival. For a 4, this is often in the context of some "ideal self" that the 4 fantasizes about which actually ends up fueling the 4's envy or sense of emptiness. The 4 is obsessed with what it does not have (similar to 5, the 2 are "empty" types). And the 7 is so fixated on obtaining more and more experiences that, ironically, it totally lacks presence, in spite of being considered the [stereo]type that "lives in the moment."

The power-seekers 258 are seeking some level of control or mastery over their respective objects. I think you are right that they *may* seek to meet the demands expected of them, but it's ultimately a strategy of control/power.

For the 2, its "helpful" persona, to simplify, is a means to an end... it is ultimately of the belief/compulsion that "owning" people via guilt, excessive modesty, and being able to collect on social debt/obligation, etc., will ensure its safety. For the 5, its detachment belies its desire for total control of resources (i.e., I tend to envision type 5 as the miserly mountain king... very reluctant to either open up or ration its hoardings of material, emotional, and psychic treasure). And type 8, I think, is sort of reacting against its soul-child of 2. Type 8s dislike seeing themselves as vulnerable because being vulnerable means giving up control... vulnerability is about shedding the armor that 8s are especially known to cling to.

I actually don't understand type 8 or 5 as well as I'd like... um, @Animal ?

One can see object relations triads as a long-term goal that attempts to satisfy whatever fixation the type has. This goal, however, only provides the illusion of security. I believe it to be some sort of reaction to the soul-child's fear (growth line):



1s: The ideal set of standards is ultimately revolting against the soul-child of 7.
2s: The desire for mastery through other people is a rejection of the unique, needy, speshul-snowflake of 4.
4s: The creation of an ideal self that simply reminds the 4 of what they don't have is a rejection of the 1 soul-child's need to be good.
5s: The detachment is perhaps a fear of the inner 8's sadism?
7s: The gluttony is a need to "fill up" the emptiness of 5.
8s: Overt power-seeking is a way of rejecting the vulnerable, sensitive soul-child of 2.

And dare I try the inner triangle (the types I have the poorest understanding of, in terms of connection points)?



3s: Perhaps the "Achievement Get!" sort of trophy-hunting helps try and reject the inner 6's doubt and fear? I know that 3s can be quite confident (especially Sp 3).
6s: The 6 fears its inner 9's laziness/sloth so it reacts against that complacency via hyper-vigilance and never letting down its guard.
9s: The inner 3 causes the 9 to just "shut-down" because the demands of success are too much to handle ("I don't wanna deal with all that!")


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## Tater Tot (May 28, 2012)

@hal0hal0



> Remember that the frustration triad is also called the "ideal seeking" triad. 1s, 4s, and 7s can often set themselves up for failure with unrealistic expectations, standards, or needs. Shakespeare's line: "expectation is the root of all heartache" rings especially true for these types because their fixation is often centered around the anticipation of whatever they are trying to achieve/get, and these goals are often unrealistic and unattainable.


I think this ties in well with the "What do I want?" description.



> The power-seekers 258 are seeking some level of control or mastery over their respective objects. I think you are right that they *may* seek to meet the demands expected of them, but it's ultimately a strategy of control/power.


I wouldn't say 8's seek to meet the demands expected of them, more that they see it as an obstacle.  And for the 5's it's more like an awareness/preparedness of what might require their energy and effort. Actually meeting the demands is more of a 2 thing.



> For the 5, its detachment belies its desire for total control of resources (i.e., I tend to envision type 5 as the miserly mountain king... very reluctant to either open up or ration its hoardings of material, emotional, and psychic treasure)


I've always envisioned 5's as hibernators. Gathering resources, saving energy, preparing for the "winter" that could be coming. 



> 3s: Perhaps the "Achievement Get!" sort of trophy-hunting helps try and reject the inner 6's doubt and fear?


I've always pictured 3's as types that substitute real, close relationships, feelings, etc. that a 6 might experience, for superficial substitutes. (wanting applause instead of love, illusion of being okay instead of acknowledging problems, rejection of fear as you said, blahblahblah)

And one of the patterns I've noticed between 6 and 9 is the doubtfulness. I think it may have something to do with the 9's indecisiveness and lack of awareness.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Tater Tot said:


> I still haven't really found a pattern like that for the Attachment Triad. :laughing:


Attachment triad is quite simple: How can I find what I want?


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

> 5: What are they not capable of handling, what are they missing, (similar to 4) what should they be prepared for.


Out of all of those, the type 5 one is what fits the most. Especially the first part. 



> 2: What is wanted from them in their community, what qualities are desirable, what will earn them love and attention..


This one doesn't really work for me, though the last part fits somewhat. I would say I'm more focused on whether I'm being respected and appreciated. Does this person really care about me? How can I get this person to care? And I also focus somewhat on my image. Is it okay to say this, or would it just make me look bad/weird/annoying/etc.? 



ephemereality said:


> Attachment triad is quite simple: How can I find what I want?


Seems like that might overlap a bit with the frustration triad. Maybe something like "How can I preserve what I have?" Three wants to preserve their image, six wants to preserve their security, and nine wants to preserve their peace.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Silveresque said:


> Seems like that might overlap a bit with the frustration triad. Maybe something like "How can I preserve what I have?" Three wants to preserve their image, six wants to preserve their security, and nine wants to preserve their peace.


The problem is that they operate on that they don't have it though. And how would you differentiate this from sp as an instinctual variant? There is an existential search in all the attachment types in a need to find something within themselves that is seen as stable. Their specific attachments revolve around the method of doing this.


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## rajAs (Sep 14, 2012)

I'll share my point of view on triads, mostly based on my own experience rather than on studies, so I could be wrong 

I think about the attachment triad types as people who forgot early in the past about their own self and quickly started to look for answers in the outer world. They (we) started then to adapt more and more to society and completely forgot at a certain point the reason for which we've been *constantly looking to fit in the world*.

Frustration triad: their focus is on the *lacking of something. 
*1: what lacks to reach perfection, 
4: what is lacking in general, 
7: what is lacking to fully enjoy life

Rejection: their focus is on the *feeling they're somehow "bigger"* than the world. Respectively they express that in their own way. 
8: I reject other people's power and think I can do it better (against), 
2: I can help people better than they can help themselves (toward), 
5: I can understand everything by just not getting involved too much (away)

These are just schemes and I don't like to go in further depth about this triad division: beyond a certain point the meaning of "frustration" and "rejection" would be lost and would become more specific issues.

It would be interesting to set correspondences with Gurdjieff's Law of Three, but it could be a bit hazardous


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## Tater Tot (May 28, 2012)

rajAs said:


> It would be interesting to set correspondences with Gurdjieff's Law of Three, but it could be a bit hazardous


I tried understanding the law of three stuff... :bored: I gave up. And it all seemed to cult-like to me.


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## SharkT00th (Sep 5, 2012)

@hal0hal0

I love your post, it summed up the triads quiet well. I do relate to what you say about the 5, but I find that detachment is a defense against Lust and directly going into the world and fully engaging with it since I feel that I would be overwhelmed by that approach. Instead being on the sidelines is what happens when I detach to focus on what is going on around me which paradoxically cuts me off from my other two centers, those being the heart and body.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

rajAs said:


> Frustration triad: their focus is on the *lacking of something.
> 
> 4: what is lacking in general,
> 7: what is lacking to fully enjoy life*
> ...


I definitely relate to 5; I am far more comfortable with observing than being actively involved.

As far as 4 and 7 are concerned: I want to understand what is lacking in ME, in order to be happy, because I don't believe that ANYTHING in the external world, can ever make me happy. I feel that there is something fundamentally missing in ME; if I did, then I would KNOW what would make me happy. I am not at all depressed BTW, far from it and I don't know if the reason for my frustration is; because of *my need to remain detached* or *if nothing is really worth it*?

:dry:



rajAs said:


> I think about the attachment triad types as people who forgot early in the past about their own self and quickly started to look for answers in the outer world. *They (we) started then to adapt more and more to society and completely forgot at a certain point the reason for which we've been constantly looking to fit in the world*.


I can honestly say that I have never done that; I have _refused_ to adapt from a very early age - for better or worse. I have always insisted on being true to myself, no matter what. I don't even have a clue, _how_ I would do this; even if I actually wanted to.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Tater Tot said:


> Found a new pattern, y'all. :crazy:
> 
> It's pretty much exactly what it sounds. *The Frustration triad is oriented towards their own needs and desires, while the Rejection Triad is oriented towards the kinds of demands and expectations that will be made upon them*.
> 
> ...


I totally relate to this.


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## 0+n*1 (Sep 20, 2013)

I am a 6w7 and I relate more to the frustration triad than to the attachment triad in descriptions I have read online (I haven't read many though) and I think the reason for that could be because it's highly expectable to feel frustrated when we're trying to find something stable, unchangeable in an ever-changing world. I think one difference is that in the back of my head there's this idea, that's pretty silly, that I'd be fine if I have what I want. There's a certain limit to it because finding something stable consumes all our attention and that's because there's more focus on the state of change of things. And things change. We know it and still you have me there. For example, I want to feel 100% independent and I want to say I'm self-reliant but when I think about it, my mind takes me to my insecurities, the moments I depended on someone else, the instability of it. And that's why it's hard for me to confidently say I am self-reliant. That's why 6s are well-known for wanting to prove themselves, without any doubt, that they are something (specially strong, independent and whatnot). I think there's some blindness to it, where you cannot see you have what you want because there's this uncertainty of it's truly there because it's not stable (well, this seen from a 6 perspective). The same goes for something negative. The dark side of attachment is probably getting stuck in a place where you focus more on making or finding something stable instead of moving on. One thing at a time. And that thing must be stable. Maybe that's why we're called attachment types. We get attached, even if we do not acknowledge it. Do any attachment triaders relate?


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## rajAs (Sep 14, 2012)

@TreasureTower

In your last quote I was talking about the attachment triad (3-6-9): so it's not strange if you don't relate 

Thanks for your insights about type 4


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

rajAs said:


> @TreasureTower
> 
> In your last quote I was talking about the attachment triad (3-6-9): so it's not strange if you don't relate
> 
> Thanks for your insights about type 4


I relate strongly to both 4 and 5 but Naranjo's description of 5 - with the exception of being "cold" eerily fits me, far more than I'd like to admit. I relate to 4 as well but I really believe that my main problem and they are lots ^_^; is the difficulty I have, actively engaging in life.


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## rajAs (Sep 14, 2012)

I somehow remember that he (Naranjo) is a 5 as well


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## Tater Tot (May 28, 2012)

rajAs said:


> I somehow remember that he (Naranjo) is a 5 as well


I thought he was a 9. 0_0


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## 0+n*1 (Sep 20, 2013)

Tater Tot said:


> I thought he was a 9. 0_0


I have seen him typed by supposed experts as a 5 (Ichazo in the other hand is typed as a 9). Just looking at some pictures Ichazo strike me more as a 5 and Naranjo as a 9.


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## Tater Tot (May 28, 2012)

Oh, here's why I thought he was a 9:



> _I recall somebody who may be called a “TV addict” who listened to_
> _the news during mealtimes. I mostly thought of it as distracting from the personal situation_
> _around the table, but occasionally my attention would be roused by some particularly_
> _important piece of international news. Yet I soon observed that every time that something_
> ...


For some reason every single time I've read that I've read it as HIM describing HIMSELF as a TV addict and not 'somebody.' T-T No wonder I don't like reading.


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