# How Do Relations of Duality Work?



## holysouljellyroll (May 9, 2013)

Trying to understand how relations of duality work. I'll use ENFp and ISTp as an example.
Block 1Functions you value and use consciously)
Ne, Fi vs. Si, Te
Block 2Functions you value and don't use consciously)
Se, Ti vs. Ni, Fe
Block 3Functions you don't value, but use consciously)
Te, Si vs. Fi, Ne
Block 4Functions you don't value or use consciously)
Ni, Fe vs. Se, Ti

So it seems like the functions in the second block would be kind of exalted, like things you admire and don't feel very capable of, the third block being functions that you look down upon because you understand them but don't value them highly, and the fourth block would be sort of baffling to you?
So if someone is leading with something you look down on, if they admire something that makes no sense to you, don't think highly of your point of confidence, and don't understand something you look up to, why is it that you'd have this amazing dynamic with them?
It seems like an ENFp would have a great relationship with ESTp since it leads with what ENFp admires, admires what ENFp is good at, doesn't value the part of its functions that ENFp would struggle most to relate with, and might not notice the functions that ENFp uses and doesn't value(so its focus would be on what ENFp is good at)?

Anyway, I'm asking because I know some element of my understanding must be off here so I'm just looking for you to correct it...
Like if you take relations of benefit it makes more sense.
Block 1:
Ni, Te vs. Fi, Ne
Block 2:
Si, Fe vs. Ti, Se
Block 3:
Fi, Se vs. Te, Si
Block 4:
Ne, Ti vs. Fe, Ni
Because the INTp understands the INFj's dominant function and doesn't value it that highly, whereas the INFj wouldn't be able to understand the INTp's dominant function at all. Plus the INTp would value Si highly so it would see something worthwhile in the INFj that the INFj doesn't see in itself.
Is my understanding of the meaning of the blocks off? I haven't read all the kinds of relations carefully but I've read about benefit and duality and benefit seems to make sense but not duality? In fact when I first read about relations of benefit it was because the person I love is INTJ and I am INFP so I looked up the kind of relationship INTj has with INTp and thought "This sounds like us." then realized I got beneficiary and benefactor mixed up and got confused because I thought it was really fitting so obviously the reverse wouldn't make sense, haha, but with INFj as beneficiary it does make sense and in terms of the blocks as I understand them it makes sense. I don't mean to try to understand socionics in terms of MBTI but I have a firmer grasp on MBTI and they are similar so it helps me.


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## Dedication (Jun 11, 2013)

I'll translate Socionics to MBTI and it will make sense. (I do this because I'm a baller like that).

Socionics ENFp + ISTp equals MBTI ENFP + ISTJ.

ENFP uses: Ne-Fi-Te-Si
ISTJ uses: Si-Te-Fi-Ne

Both types use the same functions only in complete different order and strength, the ISTJ is strong where the ENFP is weak and vice-versa.


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## vosquoque (Jul 26, 2012)

You got blocks 2 and 3 mixed up. SeTi is the superego and TeSi is the superid of ENFps.


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## Sol_ (Jan 8, 2013)

holysouljellyroll said:


> Block 2Functions you value and don't use consciously)
> Se, Ti vs. Ni, Fe


nop. block 2 is not valued. Valued blocks are 1 and 3. ENFP has valued functions Ne, Fi, Si, Te.



> Block 3Functions you don't value, but use consciously)
> Te, Si vs. Fi, Ne


"conscious"... I suppose it's wrong translation here, not exact term by Augustinavichute or her mistake. "conscious" is about strong functions, according to Jung. 2 and 3 blocks have weak functions.



> It seems like an ENFp would have a great relationship with ESTp


super-ego are one of the worst relations. my experience confirms this


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## holysouljellyroll (May 9, 2013)

Dedication said:


> I'll translate Socionics to MBTI and it will make sense. (I do this because I'm a baller like that).
> 
> Socionics ENFp + ISTp equals MBTI ENFP + ISTJ.
> 
> ...


I guess I can understand that but in MBTI those are generally the exact types that would get along the least and that seems to ring true so I guess that's where my confusion was, along with not understanding what block 2 is about.


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## holysouljellyroll (May 9, 2013)

Sol_ said:


> nop. block 2 is not valued. Valued blocks are 1 and 3. ENFP has valued functions Ne, Fi, Si, Te.
> 
> 
> "conscious"... I suppose it's wrong translation here, not exact term by Augustinavichute or her mistake. "conscious" is about strong functions, according to Jung. 2 and 3 blocks have weak functions.
> ...


Thanks, I was definitely confused about this! Can you help me understand what the functions in the second block are? Like, how do they compare to the functions in the fourth block?


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

Duality is the favorable part of Mirage (Creative and Hidden Agenda) + the favorable part of Semidual (Lead and Suggestive). It works as the following:

[HR][/HR]LEAD and SUGGESTIVE:




The Lead function of any type takes little to no effort to use, and is free-flowing, strong, and natural
The Suggestive function of any type is underdeveloped and weak, but highly valued and subconsciously expected from others

The Lead function of your Dual and Semidual is your Suggestive function, and same with you or them. Result is that there is two-way, attractive communication, and you can help in each others' weak but desired spot without putting much effort into doing so. You can inadvertently solve each others' unsolvables without putting any effort into it. 

[HR][/HR]CREATIVE and HIDDEN AGENDA:




The Creative function of any type is the mode through which the concerns of the Lead function become practically applicable. It's valued and easy to use, but because it only serves the purpose of the Lead, too much emphasis is seen as missing "the point."
The Hidden Agenda function of any type is weak, unstable, and less-expressed, but valued. While you have trouble verbalizing matters in this function, you subconsciously expect others to pick up on it and deal with them efficiently.

The Creative function of your Dual and Mirage is your Hidden Agenda function, and same with you for them. Result is that there is typically shared preferences on how to cooperate in a practical setting. Your partner will apply their base in a way that you expect without necessarily asking for it, and likewise. 


As an aside, I attest that although this sounds amazing from a verbal POV, in reality Duality is just a very natural relationship, with kinks worked out quickly and efficiently. It isn't "perfect," it's just very comfortable. They _do _stick out among other people, and they are stimulating, but I find it difficult to compartmentalize the relationship to micro function details - if it's romantic, you still have to find the other person attractive in other ways, and if it isn't, you still have to share non-socionics values, be healthy within your type, and spend enough time together to establish the bond. Duality has plenty of room to fail, it's just that when it doesn't, it's a very smooth, comfortable relationship communication-wise.


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## vosquoque (Jul 26, 2012)

The suggestive function acts like a basis, justification or continuation of the base function (the functions are operations of processing, of course, not actual qualities). Your dual extends your base with his and you with yours. That allows for the formation of a common medium of communication. Your dual also takes care of your weak points without making you feel inferior (as in supervision) because your PoLR is his demonstrative (which he is competent in but but ridicules it when it is taken seriously) and your role (which you can do for short periods, making you feel disoriented) is his ignoring (what he feels to be an annoyance). That minimizes the feeling of misalignment and separation in communication.


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

holysouljellyroll said:


> For ENFp (IEE)
> 
> *Block 1: EGO (Functions ENFp's values* and uses consciously.)
> Ne and Fi
> ...


I've expanded on your duality scheme and fixed a few things. The Superego functions are NOT valued. The Superid functions ARE valued. You've had this written wrong originally. ENFp is part of Delta Quadra which means that both Si and Te located in the Superid block are valued information elements for the ENFp.



holysouljellyroll said:


> So it seems like the functions in the second block would be kind of exalted, like things you admire and don't feel very capable of, the third block being functions that you look down upon because you understand them but don't value them highly, and the fourth block would be sort of baffling to you?
> So if someone is leading with something you look down on, if they admire something that makes no sense to you, don't think highly of your point of confidence, and don't understand something you look up to, why is it that you'd have this amazing dynamic with them?


It's not the second block but the third block functions that a type seeks in others.


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

holysouljellyroll said:


> I guess I can understand that but in MBTI those are generally the exact types that would get along the least and that seems to ring true so I guess that's where my confusion was, along with not understanding what block 2 is about.


How do you know that these types would get along the least? Only yesterday I was talking to three of my friends types SLI, IEE and IEE. They much enjoy each other's company. The SLI doesn't go out that often and declines many invitations. If she learns that the ENFps will be there, she almost always shows up to the meetings.


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## holysouljellyroll (May 9, 2013)

Figure said:


> Duality is the favorable part of Mirage (Creative and Hidden Agenda) + the favorable part of Semidual (Lead and Suggestive). It works as the following:
> 
> [HR][/HR]LEAD and SUGGESTIVE:
> 
> ...


So, lead function would be the dominant function here, suggestive is secondary, creative is tertiary, and hidden agenda is inferior? I really appreciate your description and I can tell it would be helpful except that I really don't know any of these terms you're using... I really don't know anything about socionics besides the incorrect bit I opened up with here.


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## holysouljellyroll (May 9, 2013)

cyamitide said:


> How do you know that these types would get along the least? Only yesterday I was talking to three of my friends types SLI, IEE and IEE. They much enjoy each other's company. The SLI doesn't go out that often and declines many invitations. If she learns that the ENFps will be there, she almost always shows up to the meetings.


I don't mean I know it to be the case or anything. It's just that I learned MBTI first and some people have told me socionics is better so I'm trying to get a grasp on it. Like, I think I'm INFJ in socionics just based on the cognitive functions because I'm INFP in MBTI and I can't fathom the ideal person for me to get along with being ESTJ but on the other hand it makes sense to me that the worst person for me to work with would be an ESTJ. That doesn't mean I would avoid people of this type/not give them a chance or think that INFJs and ESTJs who get along well are somehow wrong for it. Just trying to understand it in a way that makes sense to me because usually Te and Si don't make me get along swimmingly with somebody.


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

holysouljellyroll said:


> So, lead function would be the dominant function here, suggestive is secondary, creative is tertiary, and hidden agenda is inferior? I really appreciate your description and I can tell it would be helpful except that I really don't know any of these terms you're using... I really don't know anything about socionics besides the incorrect bit I opened up with here.


That's how I learned it and I think it works fine that way, but other people swear that you can't superimpose them that way so I usually try to explain them separately. 

But essentially, yes, it goes like this:

(1) Dominant function = Base/Lead function
(2) Auxiliary function = Creative function
(3) Tertiary function = Hidden Agenda function
(4) Inferior function = Suggestive function

Those are the four explained above. Socionics also explains the way the other 4 operate in your type, but it's probably easier to just learn those first four to begin with, and see if you think they match well to the MBTI functions.


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## intp_gurl (Mar 8, 2014)

You partner is strong in the areas you are not. So you become a team to get things done. They do the heavy lifting in their strong skills, and you in yours.


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## Kizuna (Jul 30, 2011)

[No message]


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

@_Miya_ >_>...

That's not true at all.


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## intp_gurl (Mar 8, 2014)

MNiS said:


> @_Miya_ >_>...
> 
> That's not true at all.



Yeah, they work. I've experienced it. So, yeah, I'm a fan.
Experienced both dual and conflict. Experienced semi dual and illusionary. So socionics works for me. Not theoretical, but my personal, real life experience. I love theories, didn't believe this one though. But it works.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

intp_gurl said:


> Yeah, they work. I've experienced it. So, yeah, I'm a fan.
> Experienced both dual and conflict. Experienced semi dual and illusionary. So socionics works for me. Not theoretical, but my personal, real life experience. I love theories, didn't believe this one though. But it works.


Do you want to describe your dual? Also your conflictor, semi-dual and illusionary in separate threads, please? 

I'm glad the theory is applicable to you though! : )


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## intp_gurl (Mar 8, 2014)

I really don't want to create a seperate thread for each. So I'll give you a brief overview.

my dual----it took about two years before I realized he was a dual. Didn't even know what a dual was until I started researching. 
Basically with my dual, I'm good at all the things he isnt good at. One online page says:



" Not all duals are created equal

Each socionic type contains a wide variety of people. Some duals you will be physically attracted to immediately, some gradually, and others never. Some will share your interests, your lifestyle, or your body type, while others will not.

In popular socionics literature you will find statements like "duals don't attract each other at first." This is often true, but not always. Sometimes the chemistry can be instantaneous if partners have "just the right look," or say certain "code words" or share a key interest. Other duals may seem uninteresting because they lack all of these things. Such people are still easy to work and interact with, but there may seem to be no real basis for a more serious relationship. The most compatible duals seem to have lots in common."


I find this to be true. I've had other people of the same type who liked me, but I never even cosidered them. Now, I know myself and my dual type better.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

intp_gurl said:


> I really don't want to create a seperate thread for each. So I'll give you a brief overview.
> 
> my dual----it took about two years before I realized he was a dual. Didn't even know what a dual was until I started researching.
> Basically with my dual, I'm good at all the things he isnt good at. One online page says:
> ...


So nothing useful. Thanks.


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## Astrid Von M (Jun 16, 2014)

well, ideal duality relationship should work as a jigsaw puzzle in a sense - your dual (ideal partner, your other half or whatever) is the person that is almost the same as you at the first glance but has well developed cognitive functions that you mayot have. kinda like you two arrived at the same place by the use of different means and precisely cause of that you function so well together as you share your visions but complement eachother by filling eachother's weak spots with the use of different cognitive skills. twin souls explained through psychoanalysis, in a nutshell


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Astrid Von M said:


> well, ideal duality relationship should work as a jigsaw puzzle in a sense - your dual (ideal partner, your other half or whatever) is the person that is almost the same as you at the first glance but has well developed cognitive functions that you mayot have. kinda like you two arrived at the same place by the use of different means and precisely cause of that you function so well together as you share your visions but complement eachother by filling eachother's weak spots with the use of different cognitive skills. twin souls explained through psychoanalysis, in a nutshell


Why a jigsaw puzzle? Would complementary pair be a more complete way to explain it? Twin souls? >____> Do you believe people have souls and why or why not?


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## Astrid Von M (Jun 16, 2014)

MNiS said:


> Why a jigsaw puzzle? Would complementary pair be a more complete way to explain it? Twin souls? >____> Do you believe people have souls and why or why not?


it was just a choice of wording I chose to paint a more statement-y picture!  complementary pair is exactly what I thought of when I said jigsaw puzzle. and if you do embrace the notion of twin flames then jigsaw description fits perfectly as the twin flames are said to be literally one soul split into two parts  yes I really do! why? that's easy - as long as we can feel deep emotions we are spiritual beings and spirituality requires having a soul for starters  (this is the awkwardest most shortest description I ever gave about souls I swear haha )


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Astrid Von M said:


> it was just a choice of wording I chose to paint a more statement-y picture!  complementary pair is exactly what I thought of when I said jigsaw puzzle.


A two-hundred and fourty piece jigsaw puzzle won't take long to complete though. 



> and if you do embrace the notion of twin flames then jigsaw description fits perfectly as the twin flames are said to be literally one soul split into two parts


Ehhhh. 



> yes I really do! why? that's easy - as long as we can feel deep emotions we are spiritual beings and spirituality requires having a soul for starters  (this is the awkwardest most shortest description I ever gave about souls I swear haha )


I think a scientist in the early 20th century had proven that the a person's body loses a slight amount of weight when they die and he could explain it as no other way than to say that people do have souls. That begs the question what happens to that soul or spiritual energy? Some believe it floats up to heaven but I think the reality is it simply enters another human being that has just been conceived.


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## Astrid Von M (Jun 16, 2014)

MNiS said:


> I think a scientist in the early 20th century had proven that the a person's body loses a slight amount of weight when they die and he could explain it as no other way than to say that people do have souls. That begs the question what happens to that soul or spiritual energy? Some believe it floats up to heaven but I think the reality is it simply enters another human being that has just been conceived.


21 grams?  yes i know 

we kinda share quite a bit of views regarding this topic,huh? 

what happens is (and this is only my vision of what happens) you really do enter another human body to complete the other set of tasks you failed/ didn't need to fulfill in your previous/current life. new life - new obstacles - one level closer to self liberation


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Astrid Von M said:


> 21 grams?  yes i know
> 
> we kinda share quite a bit of views regarding this topic,huh?


Seems so. 



> what happens is (and this is only my vision of what happens) you really do enter another human body to complete the other set of tasks you failed/ didn't need to fulfill in your previous/current life. new life - new obstacles - one level closer to self liberation


I don't think it happens for any other reason than it's boring being a ghost because a person's previous life is as complete or incomplete or successful or as much of a failure as they choose to believe.


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## Astrid Von M (Jun 16, 2014)

MNiS said:


> I don't think it happens for any other reason than it's boring being a ghost because a person's previous life is as complete or incomplete or successful or as much of a failure as they choose to believe.


omg that can't be your legit reason why you think reincarnation happens? but okay sure - everyone's entitled to their own opinion )
i don't think there's such thing as ghosts tbh spiritual energies yes - but full blown white sheet ghosts- naah haha


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Astrid Von M said:


> omg that can't be your legit reason why you think reincarnation happens?


It is. I think I'd prefer to haunt people I didn't like though. XD

Well, at least for a while before I grew bored of it. 



> but okay sure - everyone's entitled to their own opinion )
> i don't think there's such thing as ghosts tbh spiritual energies yes - but full blown white sheet ghosts- naah haha


Ah, so that's where we're divergent.


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## Astrid Von M (Jun 16, 2014)

MNiS said:


> It is. I think I'd prefer to haunt people I didn't like though. XD
> 
> Well, at least for a while before I grew bored of it.
> 
> Ah, so that's where we're divergent.


haha lol I can quite relate to that haha 

yeah it seems so - dammit whyyy :jk: haha 
but it's good tho - it wouldn't be interesting if we all had exactly the same mental processes and ideas


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Astrid Von M said:


> haha lol I can quite relate to that haha


Yeah. Hahah. XD



> yeah it seems so - dammit whyyy :jk: haha


For a bunch of reasons leading to a meta-reason. 



> but it's good tho - it wouldn't be interesting if we all had exactly the same mental processes and ideas


Yes, I completely agree with you.


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## Astrid Von M (Jun 16, 2014)

MNiS said:


> For a bunch of reasons leading to a meta-reason.


haha hmmm deceptionally careless remark at first glance! dare I analyze it deeper?


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Astrid Von M said:


> haha hmmm deceptionally careless remark at first glance! dare I analyze it deeper?


Careless remark? You equate casualness to be carelessness?  You're analyzing me? I didn't know I needed a therapist.


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## Astrid Von M (Jun 16, 2014)

MNiS said:


> Careless remark? You equate casualness to be carelessness?  You're analyzing me? I didn't know I needed a therapist.


haha relaaaax I was being just my usual -STJ investigator self  and I was analyzing the statement not you xD


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Astrid Von M said:


> haha relaaaax I was being just my usual -STJ investigator self ** and I was analyzing the statement not you xD


A wink smiley??? Why do I get the impression that you're toying with me?  I'm just participating in honest conversation.


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## Astrid Von M (Jun 16, 2014)

MNiS said:


> A wink smiley??? Why do I get the impression that you're toying with me?  I'm just participating in honest conversation.


haha omg the panicccc! not the wink smiley! oh no!  
yeaaah, I like to toy with people and to be a horrible person 

( i hope you get that i'm joking lol don't want you to panic or anything haha) )


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Astrid Von M said:


> haha omg the panicccc! not the wink smiley! oh no!
> yeaaah, I like to toy with people and to be a horrible person
> 
> ( i hope you get that i'm joking lol don't want you to panic or anything haha) )


Okay, because when people tell me something about themselves very directly I take them at face value and don't second guess them. That usually leads to some major midunderstandings online because I can't read a person's body language or facial expression as they're saying it. :\ So it's a good thing you told me you were joking. 

Okay, so back on topic. How would you describe duality compared to activity?


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## Astrid Von M (Jun 16, 2014)

MNiS said:


> Okay, because when people tell me something about themselves very directly I take them at face value and don't second guess them. That usually leads to some major midunderstandings online because I can't read a person's body language or facial expression as they're saying it. :\ So it's a good thing you told me you were joking.
> 
> Okay, so back on topic. How would you describe duality compared to activity?


that's so ..nice of you to actually not second guess the people but sometimes people are gonna be sarcastic so you'll have to not take them so seriously  
but good, crisis averted! glad I clarified it now even more so)


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Astrid Von M said:


> that's so ..nice of you to actually not second guess the people


Thanks. I tend to trust people if they seem kind and nice. 



> but sometimes people are gonna be sarcastic so you'll have to not take them so seriously


Yes I know. Good thing I can pick up sarcasm well.  How about yourself?



> but good, crisis averted! glad I clarified it now even more so)


Thanks for doing so.


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## Astrid Von M (Jun 16, 2014)

MNiS said:


> Yes I know. Good thing I can pick up sarcasm well.  How about yourself?


you mean you can pick it up in real life convos, right?  
haha I have a radar for sarcasm and I spot it immediately! guess cause i'm an avid user of it myself haha  tho i'm never mean to people unlike some of them are :/


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Astrid Von M said:


> you mean you can pick it up in real life convos, right?


Yes. I'm terrible at detecting sarcasm on the internet though. 



> haha I have a radar for sarcasm and I spot it immediately! guess cause i'm an avid user of it myself haha


Oh awesome! I'm really an ironic person but irony and sarcasm angers a lot of people where I live so I typically keep a lid on it.



> tho i'm never mean to people unlike some of them are :/


Yup.


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