# Black Sheep In Temperaments?



## Clare_Bare (Apr 6, 2015)

Are a quarter of us Black Sheep?

Something i've noticed over time with Temperaments is that at least one type in each Temperament category 'expresses' in a way that is sigmificantly different to their three contemporary's.

In other words, there is an aspect to their type which makes them unique compared to others in their Temperament and thus not aligned with the usual identifiers for that temeperament - at least superficially.

It's difficult to explain, but I will use myself as an example.
Being an ENTP, I am a member of the NT Temperament. They are commonly referred to as the 'Rationals' and usually more logically orientated. NT's are also known to be independant and focussed on their specific interests.
Although I totally relate to the Rational aspect, I am extremely socially inclined and not so distracted by anaylsis and detail.

Why am I - an ENTP, the only one of the NT Temperaments to have this differentiation?
The other three NT types appear to be closely aligned in their expressions as far as temperaments go.
Oddly, I think my peers (INTP, INTJ and ENTJ) are recluses compared to my outgoing nature!

And i've noticed similar attributes with one type from each of the other Temperaments.
In my estimation, I think their Black Sheep are:

SJ = ESTJ.
SP = ESFP.
NF = ENFP.
NT = ENTP (me)

Yes, i'm aware in my assessment that they are all 'E' types and mostly perceivers also.
Not sure if that is definately a common factor amongst the Black Sheeps, or i've just got it wrong perhaps?

Endorsement or constructive critiscism is welcome on my hypothesis ...


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## Monroe (May 13, 2016)

It would help me to understand if you go through with the other outliers? How is ENFP different from INFP, INFJ, ENFJ? How do you account for the confusion among typing (aka ENFJ/ENFP confusion)?


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## puzzlepieces (May 29, 2016)

Interesting post. I know that in the Enneagram system there is a "black sheep" in each type, which is the counter subtype of the type. I wouldn't reject your hypothesis outright because I'm open to it, but I don't see how you got your specific black sheep types. From my perspective ENTP is the only obvious black sheep,and the other types fit their temperaments. Baah.


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## Clare_Bare (Apr 6, 2015)

puzzlepieces said:


> From my perspective ENTP is the only obvious black sheep,and the other types fit their temperaments.


Because I was able to articulate how the ENTP is different to the other NT's?
Or is it something that appears obvious to non NT people?

I wonder if the atypical sub-types in the other temperaments are aware that they 'express' differently?
(on the basis that black sheep actually exist ...)

It's a fascinating concept to me ...


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## puzzlepieces (May 29, 2016)

Clare_Bare said:


> Because I was able to articulate how the ENTP is different to the other NT's?
> Or is it something that appears obvious to non NT people?
> 
> I wonder if the atypical sub-types in the other temperaments are aware that they 'express' differently?
> ...


For the reasons you stated, which also align with my impression of ENTPs. I find them very charming and hilarious and they go towards people more than to information like the other rationals. I think it's a pull between getting ideas and possibilities (Ne) and wanting to encourage and help others (Fe). The Ti seems to take a backseat to Ne and Fe and it serves to help them assess the information coming in. NTs, in general, think "outside the box", and it makes sense that within a group of people who are original thinkers that one of those types is even more outside the box than the rest. I'm just not sure if the other temperaments have an obviously different subtype. 

ESTJs, to me, seem very SJ because they want to uphold and enforce the rules. All the SJs are providers/protectors in my mind. ENFPs can be very idealistic (the ones I've met) but they may be less interested in helping society over finding themselves, so I can see a difference there. ESFPs are just very experience-oriented. They want to experience everything right now, which I think is an artisan trait. Maybe ISFPs are less obvious in desire to experience things because they are so introverted but they are usually good with tools, which is another artisan quality.


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## goodthankyou (Mar 25, 2016)

Interesting observation! I think it works for the NT and NF types, but not really for the SJ and SP types. I would list them as such:

ST: ESTP
SF: ESFP
NT: ENTP
NF: ENFP

It is because Se and Ne are the agents of chaos!


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## Carpentet810 (Nov 17, 2013)

ENTP aren't black sheep! 

This is an ENTP sheep!!!!


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## goodthankyou (Mar 25, 2016)

@Carpentet810

It is the sheep of chaos!


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## Highway Nights (Nov 26, 2014)

For the sake of stereotypes, based on my observations

NTs: ENTPs, depending on enneagram. Type 5s are more typical NTs, type 7s are pretty much honorary SPs.
NFs: ENFJs. Come off much more grounded than the other NFs, and usually lack the fierce individualism the temperament is given. Male ENFJs also often have a pseudo SP vibe, female ENFJs sometimes have that too, to a lesser extent. The ones I've met have significantly more in common with ESFJs than INFJs or xNFPs. Probably the most blatant black sheep out of all the types I'm listing here. They just look so, so, so different to me.
SPs: ISFPs. Reminds me more of the NF temperament. A little less grounded, and more fantasy prone. Surprised to see ESFPs as the black sheep. They've always seemed like the most SPish SP to me.
SJs: ESTJs seem more impulsive than the general perception of SJs. I've also seen an uncharacteristic tendency toward reckless behavior among younger ESFJs, but not in older ones.


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## Clare_Bare (Apr 6, 2015)

Rebelgoatalliance said:


> NTs: ENTPs, depending on enneagram. Type 5s are more typical NTs, type 7s are pretty much honorary SPs.
> 
> NFs: ENFJs. Come off much more grounded than the other NFs, and usually lack the fierce individualism the temperament is given.
> Probably the most blatant black sheep out of all the types I'm listing here. They just look so, so, so different to me.
> ...


Thanks Rebel.
I like your selections and reasoning.

As an ENTP, my Enneagram Type is 7w8, although sometimes I think I should be a 6 wing?

I can see where you're going with the ENFJ, but I felt the ENFP was more inclined to be practical and effective than other NF's in terms of their idealism?

I did consider ISFP as a potential, but they seem to be quiet and ... disinterested even?
The ESFP is a way-out-there personality and very much a centre of attention type. The other SP's seem more content to be quiet achievers?

Agree with your assessment of ESTJ's.

Really appreciate your thoughts on this topic Rebel.


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## Clare_Bare (Apr 6, 2015)

goodthankyou said:


> Interesting observation! I think it works for the NT and NF types, but not really for the SJ and SP types. I would list them as such:
> 
> ST: ESTP
> SF: ESFP
> ...


I understand your references to the Dominent functions of Se and Ne, and it does generally seem representative of the black sheep list I came up with.

But you haven't really addressed the SJ temperament?
My pick of ESTJ has auxillary Si, so I may need to reconsider that?

Which SJ type would you select based on Se or Ne expressions?
None of the SJ's have Se and their Ne are all tertiary or inferior in the function stack.

I would have expected a black sheep to reflect a Dom or Aux trait?


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## goodthankyou (Mar 25, 2016)

Clare_Bare said:


> But you haven't really addressed the SJ temperament?
> My pick of ESTJ has auxillary Si, so I may need to reconsider that?


Um I don't know. The 'black sheep' pattern doesn't seem to work if you divide the personalities into SJ,SP,NT,NF. But it does seem to work if you divide the personalities into ST, SF, NT and NF.

And in fact, you get other kinds of 'black sheep' for each category if you go by the ST, SF, NT, NF pattern.

For example:

The 'chaotic' category: ESTP, ESFP, ENTP, ENFP
The 'leader' category: ESTJ, ESFJ, ENTJ, ENFJ
The 'servant' category: ISTJ, ISFJ, INTJ, INFJ
The 'individualist' category: ISTP, ISFP, INTP, INFP

So there you go! 4 categories of 'black sheep'!

But um ... if you really want me to pick one for the SJ types, I would uh pick ... um ... I dunno. I guess ESTJ stands out as the most authoritative but ... he's more like the leader sheep instead of the black sheep


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## Clare_Bare (Apr 6, 2015)

goodthankyou said:


> And in fact, you get other kinds of 'black sheep' for each category if you go by the ST, SF, NT, NF pattern.
> 
> For example:
> 
> ...


Love it !!!


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## Toroidal (Apr 14, 2016)

Monroe said:


> It would help me to understand if you go through with the other outliers? How is ENFP different from INFP, INFJ, ENFJ? How do you account for the confusion among typing (aka ENFJ/ENFP confusion)?


As an ENFP I do think the ENFP is oddball of the NF group.

INFJ and ENFJ both share Fe and tend to come off as very "nice" people. So does the INFP because although they have strong Fi, the weak Te means they tend to dislike forcing Fi onto the world. Even the names kinda of imply it. Healer, Counselor, Teacher vs Champion.


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## Monroe (May 13, 2016)

Toroidal said:


> As an ENFP I do think the ENFP is oddball of the NF group.
> 
> INFJ and ENFJ both share Fe and tend to come off as very "nice" people. So does the INFP because although they have strong Fi, the weak Te means they tend to dislike forcing Fi onto the world. Even the names kinda of imply it. Healer, Counselor, Teacher vs Champion.


Hmmmm. Well, I don't know if I agree, only because I know some aspects of Fe can be ....pretty.....intense and active. And not nice, sometimes. It does depend. I can't speak to it as I am not a part of that group (NFs). I do respect that ENFPs are active in creating (the Ne-dom). Are we saying that than ENFP is more akin to ENTP anyway?


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## Toroidal (Apr 14, 2016)

Monroe said:


> Hmmmm. Well, I don't know if I agree, only because I know some aspects of Fe can be ....pretty.....intense and active. And not nice, sometimes. It does depend. I can't speak to it as I am not a part of that group (NFs). I do respect that ENFPs are active in creating (the Ne-dom). Are we saying that than ENFP is more akin to ENTP anyway?


ISTPs have inf. Fe so they are closer to the Fi user than other Fe users. Steve Jobs is the best example of an ISTP and he could very mean or harsh at times. 

ENFP are very similar to ENTPs IMO because we both like to theorize a lot. But our thought process and actions are completely different. I actually get kind of annoyed by ENTPs and INTPs because their thinking lacks human nature. I find in terms of judgement and action the ENFP is closer to the ESFP or even INTJ.


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## DuCiel (Jul 24, 2014)

If you're going to say that ENFPs are more like ENTPs (which they are, they're both Ne-doms) you'll have to do the same with everyone else too. INFPs are more like ISFPs (Fi-dom), INFJs are more like INTJs (Ni-dom), etc. etc. From this view, most types are black sheep except ESTPs and ESFPs. 

Also, ENFPs simply aren't more practical than xNFJs are (not to say they aren't effective, the two ENFPs I know are both very active but lack focus, whereas xNFJs are going to have intense focus and productivity on a more narrow field, causing the xNFPs to think they don't get much done because they don't have many different projects and the xNFJs to think the xNFPs have no follow through). The focus of the J type is on resolution so they will always be pretty effective people, either way. It's an Fi trait to want to be very unique and different though, so ENFPs are likely to SEE themselves as black sheep (INFPs too).


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

goodthankyou said:


> The 'chaotic' category: ESTP, ESFP, ENTP, ENFP
> The 'leader' category: ESTJ, ESFJ, ENTJ, ENFJ
> The 'servant' category: ISTJ, ISFJ, INTJ, INFJ
> The 'individualist' category: ISTP, ISFP, INTP, INFP


Yeah, this definitely needs to be the new category breakdown. In everyday life I mistake personalities much more with this breakdown than I do with the current one. Although I kinda take offense at the IJ's being called ''servants''.

I'm sure a lot of people would say no because some personalities within these groups share literally no functions in common, but let's face it, in the real world Si/Ni Se/Ne Te/Fe and Ti/Fi pairings can be very hard to tell apart.


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

Nah. Nice way to make yourself think you're special, though.


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## peter pettishrooms (Apr 20, 2015)

I don't know. I've always seen the ENTJ's as sort of the odd ones of the NT's. While INTJ's and XNTP's are often stereotyped as being scientists, the ENTJ's are often underestimated in terms of their intelligence and are labeled the businessman type. Even in my experience with ENTJ's, they can come off as somewhat professional when meeting people, but once you get closer to them, they are playful as hell.


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## Clare_Bare (Apr 6, 2015)

DuCiel said:


> ... ENFPs simply aren't more practical than xNFJs ...
> The focus of the J type is on resolution so they will always be pretty effective people ...





Rebelgoatalliance said:


> ENFJs come off much more grounded than the other NFs, and usually lack the fierce individualism the temperament is given.
> Probably the most blatant black sheep out of all the types ... They just look so, so, so different to me.


I accept both of these observations. The NF's are generally extremely idealistic and the ENFP seems to be more aligned to the idealism aspect of their temperament. The ENFJ appears to be a better fit to my 'black sheep' scenario in this regard.






goodthankyou said:


> Interesting observation! I think it works for the NT and NF types, but not really for the SJ and SP types.
> It is because Se and Ne are the agents of chaos!





Clare_Bare said:


> I understand your references to the Dominent functions of Se and Ne, and it does generally seem representative of the black sheep list I came up with.
> I would have expected a black sheep to reflect a Dom or Aux trait?


  And the penny drops!
If you expand the idea of the Dom's all being extroverted, but rather than just Se or Ne only, use one of each of the preferences, you end up with the following types:

ENTP = Ne
ENFJ = Fe
ESFP = Se
ESTJ = Te

This makes more sense to me.
From each of the four temperaments, you get one type that expresses a specific extroverted preference that is not repeated by the other three types. ie; Se occurs just once in the group of black sheep.

And the result also includes 2 x P'S and 2 x J's which is more consistant than my original list which had 3 perceivers and just one judger.


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## goodthankyou (Mar 25, 2016)

Stevester said:


> Yeah, this definitely needs to be the new category breakdown. In everyday life I mistake personalities much more with this breakdown than I do with the current one. Although I kinda take offense at the IJ's being called ''servants''.


No offence meant! I was trying to come up with the right word for it. My other option was 'henchman' 

But I felt that servant had a more positive connotation especially if you look at it from a Christian point of view.

Some other possibilities are 'assistants' or maybe 'dependables?'


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## Pinina (Jan 6, 2015)

Clare_Bare said:


> Are a quarter of us Black Sheep?
> 
> Something i've noticed over time with Temperaments is that at least one type in each Temperament category 'expresses' in a way that is sigmificantly different to their three contemporary's.
> 
> ...


Interesting. I've thought of something similar before, with each temperament (say SJs) have one type closer to NTs, one closer to NFs, one to SPs, and one "perfect" SJ. 

In my mind, it'd look something like this. 

SJ:
ESTJ - NT
ISFJ - NF
ESFJ - SP
ISTJ - SJ

NT:
ENTJ - SJ
ENTP - SP
INTJ - NF
INTP - NT

SP:
ISTP - NTe
ISFP - SJ
ESFP - NF
ESTP - SP

NF:
ENFJ - SJ
INFJ - NT
ENFP - SP
INFP - NF

But then again, the whole Keirsey temperament system sucks to start with, and is hardly relatable to MBTI... Especially not CF...


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## AtomicalEntropy (Jun 6, 2016)

*nt*: Intp
*s*j: Isfj
*nf*: Enfp
*s*p: Isfp


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## Loaf (Mar 27, 2014)

I'm ISTP, and considered the black sheep of my family, due to being stupid when younger, ...and having run ins with the law etc.


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## Toroidal (Apr 14, 2016)

Pinina said:


> But then again, the whole Keirsey temperament system sucks to start with, and is hardly relatable to MBTI... Especially not CF...


I agree. I really dislike the temperament groups. For instance XNFJs seem much more comfortable living in the "SJ" world. ESTJs like you said act very "NT" like. The groups are just bad imo @goodthankyou list is actually more representative of how the types behavior IRL.


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## IceCreamSundae (Mar 6, 2016)

goodthankyou said:


> No offence meant! I was trying to come up with the right word for it. My other option was 'henchman'
> 
> But I felt that servant had a more positive connotation especially if you look at it from a Christian point of view.
> 
> Some other possibilities are 'assistants' or maybe 'dependables?'


What about:

Explorers
Leaders
Achievers
Individualists

At least everyone has a positive name, though I do like "henchmen."


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

Yeah the temperaments are pretty pointless by today's standards and somewhat arbitrary. Why would INTJs be in the same group as ENTPs but not as INFJs? Why are the sensors divided by P and J but the intuitive divided by feeling and thinking? At the very least be consistent and use the same separation for everyone.

That being said, yes, let's go back to this current breakdown we're working on....

IJs (The defenders): Reserved, dutiful, strive for structure, contribute to society any way they can

EJs (The leaders): Energetic, sociable, strive to manage things and people, value competency and results

IPs (The individualists): Live life according to their own terms, value self-expression and freedom above everything else. Generally secretive

EPs (The enthusiasts): Gregarious, fun, action-oriented live for experiences and need other people to share them with

Like I said in my other post, some of them don't even share any functions in common and I'm sure people will oppose to the fact that introverts are not even in the same category as their extroverted counterparts. But when you look at them ''behaviorally'' it just makes sense.


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