# I lost my friends.



## laylay918 (Jul 23, 2012)

WickedQueen said:


> *facepalms*
> 
> Remember, I do not apologize for wrong perception of other person, which created by his own false assumption and wrong conclusion of my intention. Although, it shows me a glimpse of why your friends leaving you.


>you say i need to stop lying to myself
>i read the sentence after that demand & logically argue against it, which according to you, i interpreted it wrongly
>you castigate & proceed to say i interpret it wrongly without implying your proper meaning (you dont say what im lying to myself about)
>






also, ad hominem. Try again.


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## Brian1 (May 7, 2011)

laylay918 said:


> Im sorry, I didn't have the answers in the beginning, but after contemplation, I figured it all out, along with the help of hailfire's encouragement



Okay, I've found your problem, you questioned your friends sense of worth, now you're making analytical arguments against us PerC members,a group you joined and asked for help. My advice,and I really have been down your road before, close your mouth and open your ears. I hate Christianity, however, the Christians on this board seem like good people. I also have a good friend who is from the Unity church. There are lots of Pat Robertsons out there, and I think the US Media has a stake in just covering the wacko evangelical Christians, and just the atheist backlash, to make ill informed viewer think that's all there is. I would go to your former Christian friend and quote the Jesus line about taking the blank out of your own eye before you criticize another, and apologize. And just like that he'll be your friend again...miracles can happen. First even if you don't like Christianity, your friend does, so by quoting Jesus you're taking an interest in the interests of your friend. If the rift wasn't that big, that should speack volumes. The second think it will do is show a more humble side of you. 

This is #12 Let others be "right" most of the time
#29, Become a better Listner
# 30 Choose your battles wisely
and #21 Imagine Yourself at your own funeral

among others in Dr. Richard Carlson's book, _Don't Sweat the Small Stuff And it's all small stuff. _ And join the chess club.


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## laylay918 (Jul 23, 2012)

Brian1 said:


> Okay, I've found your problem, you questioned your friends sense of worth, now you're making analytical arguments against us PerC members,a group you joined and asked for help. My advice,and I really have been down your road before, close your mouth and open your ears. I hate Christianity, however, the Christians on this board seem like good people. I also have a good friend who is from the Unity church. There are lots of Pat Robertsons out there, and I think the US Media has a stake in just covering the wacko evangelical Christians, and just the atheist backlash, to make ill informed viewer think that's all there is. I would go to your former Christian friend and quote the Jesus line about taking the blank out of your own eye before you criticize another, and apologize. And just like that he'll be your friend again...miracles can happen. First even if you don't like Christianity, your friend does, so by quoting Jesus you're taking an interest in the interests of your friend. If the rift wasn't that big, that should speack volumes. The second think it will do is show a more humble side of you.
> 
> This is #12 Let others be "right" most of the time
> #29, Become a better Listner
> ...


This hardly has anything to do with christianity. The intention of my post was to find out what i could do, and i figured that upon viewers of this post reading my friend's "worth", that being, nothing at all, they wouldn't even bother to try to tell me to reconcile with him. After all, who wants to be friends with his type of mindset? (recapitulation of his mindset: he's a hateful prick because he is too stupid to understand things. He hates every single god damned thing) In addition to his stupidity, i have also mentioned that he and i shouldn't even be considered friends to begin with, because he and i never really connected (we never spoke on a deep level). If you would have said: reconcile with friend "y" only in order to attain "z's" friendship again, it would have made more sense, but even so, having "z" as a friend wouldn't be worth "y's" stupidity, because "z" & "y" are now incessantly around each other. Best of friends. 

Also, i have never "bashed" any christian on this board. In fact, the topic never even came up, and for your information, when i "bash" christianity, it is not the christians i bash, it's the illogical claims and nonsensical faith that religion has to offer.


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## Brian1 (May 7, 2011)

laylay918 said:


> This hardly has anything to do with christianity. The intention of my post was to find out what i could do, and i figured that upon viewers of this post reading my friend's "worth", that being, nothing at all, they wouldn't even bother to try to tell me to reconcile with him. After all, who wants to be friends with his type of mindset? (recapitulation of his mindset: he's a hateful prick because he is too stupid to understand things. He hates every single god damned thing) In addition to his stupidity, i have also mentioned that he and i shouldn't even be considered friends to begin with, because he and i never really connected (we never spoke on a deep level). If you would have said: reconcile with friend "y" only in order to attain "z's" friendship again, it would have made more sense, but even so, having "z" as a friend wouldn't be worth "y's" stupidity, because "z" & "y" are now incessantly around each other. Best of friends.
> 
> Also, i have never "bashed" any christian on this board. In fact, the topic never even came up, and for your information, when i "bash" christianity, it is not the christians i bash, it's the illogical claims and nonsensical faith that religion has to offer.


I never said you were bashing Christians on this board. Open your mind and free yourself from your ego. I'm saying the Christians on this board aren't the bogeymen the media claims they are. Also you're missing my point, I'm saying you're attacking something someone hold dear, who happens to be your former friend. I am finding out why I alienated people, in my own life, no one is going to tell why or how, you've got to figure that for yourself. Your in denial right now, that's why you argue with my help. Pretend everyone else in the room is enlightened except you. Your job is to find enlightenment. We are all our own worst enemy...hint, hint.


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## laylay918 (Jul 23, 2012)

Brian1 said:


> I never said you were bashing Christians on this board. Open your mind and free yourself from your ego. I'm saying the Christians on this board aren't the bogeymen the media claims they are. Also you're missing my point, I'm saying you're attacking something someone hold dear, who happens to be your former friend. I am finding out why I alienated people, in my opwn life, no one is going to tell why or how, you've got to figure that for yourself. Your in denial right now, that's why you argue with my help. Pretend everyone else in the room is enlightened except you. Your job is to find enlightenment. We are all our own worst enemy...hint, hint.


I'm still not sure why you feel the need to mention christians on this board as being good people. i never made any claims that they weren't.


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## Brian1 (May 7, 2011)

laylay918 said:


> From the very start of the 11th grade, up until two weeks ago, i've lost one of them, "y", due to an argument pertaining to religion. *Although i never really took that discussion or debate seriously, it happened to have offended him and now he refuses to speak with me. He has told me that i consistently "bashed" christianity, and i do admit to that, since i am, in all candor, an antitheist.* Nevertheless, along with the loss of that friendship with "y", my other friend, "z", took his side and dissevered his relationship with me as well.
> 
> Upon breaking the bonds with these two people, i have come to the realization that "y", has one of those mindsets which hates mostly everything, and is, i presume, one of those types who thinks that it is "cool" to hate everything so much because he perceives every single symbol as a sign of conformity, *yet, he told me in a discussion that i had with him a short while ago, that his vindication for being a christian is because the majority of the people who partake in religion are christian, therefore, christianity must be the most valid. Ironic, isn't it? As i have stated before, i have never questioned his worth before, and coming upon this epiphany (after our friendship has been broken, of course), i realize that he should have been nothing to me from the very beginning. *
> 
> ...


The bold parts is where I'm getting my conclusions from Christianity on. I get them from you, these are your words. What I am saying with my talk on Christianity, wake up and smell the coffee, if you attack everyone who disagrees with you, you'll have no friends. And right now, from my personal reading, you're attacking everyone who disagrees with you. People don't like that. And I think if these are people you care about, research what the word means, then you'll know why they left you.


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## FlaviaGemina (May 3, 2012)

laylay918 said:


> Also, i have never "bashed" any christian on this board. In fact, the topic never even came up, and for your information, when i "bash" christianity, it is not the christians i bash, it's the illogical claims and nonsensical faith that religion has to offer.


And you don't see how Christians would be offended if you bash the "illogical claims" and "nonsensical faith" their religion has to offer? Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of Christianity myself, but I can see how they would take that personally. Plus, there is no point in this whole Christians vs. atheists debate. All that can be said about the matter has already been said, and it has been said by people who are a lot cleverer than any of us on this forum. 
Some people know how to behave out of rationality, some people need to believe in a god in order to behave. If it makes them feel better and helps them cope with life, why ever not? Some people just go to church as a social event. Yes, of course they could join a pigeon fanciers club instead, but if they are familiar with going to church and that gives them a sense of belonging in their life, why ever not?
Of course there are all kinds of religious nutters and bigots, but you can't lump everyone together.

Also, scientists work with many concepts that they don't fully understand themselves. E.g.


wikipedia said:


> In physics, *energy* is an indirectly observed quantity that is often understood as the ability of a physical system to do work on other physical systems
> 
> Therefore, in the words of Richard Feynman, _"It is important to realize that in physics today, we have no knowledge what energy is._


There you go, even physicists have no idea what energy is, they can only describe its effects and believe that it is there because they can study its effects. Is it really that surprising that religious people observe the same phenomena as scientists do and then conclude that it is a deity that makes things happen? Scientists say that everything in the universe was created out of nothing in the Big Bang. Fair enough, sounds good to me. But now that our universe is here, we've got the law of conservation of energy. So... energy cannot be destroyed or created.... but in the Big Bang it _was_ created out of nothing. How does that go together? Is it really that surprising that some people want to believe that a god created the universe?

Granted, scientists don't invent rules for human behaviour and say "Thou shalt not XYZ, because ENERGY demands it." In this respect they are, of course, far more rational (or whatever you want to call it) than religious people but there are far more things in this universe than any individual can ever understand. In fact, there are so many things that we as a species can't explain or haven't even discovered yet that a bit of modesty wouldn't do us any harm.

Just think of the Voyager probes that are currently approaching the outer perimeter of our solar system. Scientists had an idea of what the heliopause should be like.... and what do you know? It turns out it's different than what they expected. And that's _within_ _our own solar system_. Now scientists are looking for ways to explain why gravity is a such a weak force compared to the other fundamental forces and they say there might be additional dimensions and most of gravity goes into these dimensions. Have they got any proof for that? No. Do they claim to have any proof? No. But for the moment it's a neat idea. For Christians, God is a neat idea. And why ever not?


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## laylay918 (Jul 23, 2012)

Brian1 said:


> The bold parts is where I'm getting my conclusions from Christianity on. I get them from you, these are your words. What I am saying with my talk on Christianity, wake up and smell the coffee, if you attack everyone who disagrees with you, you'll have no friends. And right now, from my personal reading, you're attacking everyone who disagrees with you. People don't like that. And I think if these are people you care about, research what the word means, then you'll know why they left you.


With that being said, i feel the need to mention again that i never attacked him personally, just his religion. It's his own stupidity for taking it so seriously, and people this stupid, i believe, deserve to be castigated. It is within my intention that i don't befriend another religious person, because i have a propensity for attempting to cause other people to renounce their religion. Regardless, I never called him stupid, although i think he is. No directly personal attacks were ever made towards him from me. However, what i did tell him was that i thought christianity is stupid, and pointed out countless flaws. 
Also, i honestly don't view my disputes as "attacks" unless i insult them. If the people i befriend are so sensitive as to perceive mere arguments as "attacks", then i don't think i would want to be around that person. I'll just look for an ENTP friend, someone who loves to debate. 
By the way, the only person who i really attacked was wickedqueen, but only because she provoked me first, but according to some other person on this forum, they said it was just queen's style of confrontation.


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## laylay918 (Jul 23, 2012)

FlaviaGemina said:


> And you don't see how Christians would be offended if you bash the "illogical claims" and "nonsensical faith" their religion has to offer? Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of Christianity myself, but I can see how they would take that personally. Plus, there is no point in this whole Christians vs. atheists debate. All that can be said about the matter has already been said, and it has been said by people who are a lot cleverer than any of us on this forum.
> Some people know how to behave out of rationality, some people need to believe in a god in order to behave. If it makes them feel better and helps them cope with life, why ever not? Some people just go to church as a social event. Yes, of course they could join a pigeon fanciers club instead, but if they are familiar with going to church and that gives them a sense of belonging in their life, why ever not?
> Of course there are all kinds of religious nutters and bigots, but you can't lump everyone together.
> 
> ...


As i said to Brian, i don't care much if the christians i have spoken with are offended by what i have to say, as the ones who i talked to are stupid anyways. And yes, i do believe it is important to debate against religion. I don't like having to live in a world where atheists get executed because they are not of a certain religion (i.e. middle east). Religion causes people to do immoral things, and if you wish me to prove it, just go to the reddit.com/atheism section and view all the immoral acts in which religious people indulge themselves in. Granted, i know not all religious people partake in immorality, but the fact that religion can elicit immorality in the first place is what i despise. As well as this, i feel the need to bring up the topic of religion to the people i care about, as i feel it is important to share my views on the world with them. 

The problem with your 3rd paragraph, speaking of how scientists can't come to a conclusion, is that although science cannot YET come to a conclusion, they work and research to find out, whereas religion pulls their own answers out of their *** and say that it is the absolute truth, thus indoctrinating others and deluding others. (something else which i despise of religion)

God is most certainly not a neat idea. If you believe that living to serve a masochistic (he sent himself to earth to get tortured), sadistic (he roasts people alive in hell for even petty crimes), ego-maniacal (he NEEDS to be worshipped), and just so many more atrocious and dreadful adjectives, is the meaning of your life, then you have a pretty cruddy existence to me. Religion teaches you to be emotionally satisfied, not wanting to find out answers because the delusion of god is already there. There are just so many more arguments against religion that i don't feel the need to go any further than what i have given you. 

Science may be wrong at times, yes, but the wrong is not permanent. Science works to fix its previous errors, and we learn from our mistakes, whereas religion is upright wrong and teaches you not to question its merits, rendering the majority of religious people to not question a false claim.


Edit: i don't necessarily take back what i said about reddit.com, but i just thought of a more appropriate source which validates the immorality of religion: http://www.evolbiol.ru/large_files/hitchens.pdf

It is a book written by christopher hitchens, late journalist, titled: god is not great.


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## hailfire (Dec 16, 2012)

I have been lurking briefly through all the posts that have shown up here, as lurking is my game 

What I gather: You should really take in and heed some of the advice @WickedQueen, @FlaviaGemina, @Moss Icon, and @Brian1 gave you. They are (or were) trying to help you, and they did hand you some very valuable and insightful advice. It would be wise to listen to what they said. Sometimes the best advice is the shit you don't want to hear because you think it's stupid. You may think differently one day in retrospect and wish you did while you had the chance. I'm not saying that you must listen to and agree with everything they have said, but they have offered you great stuff and you should not wear blinders.

Also, I would advise you to be mindful of how you can sound in some of your arguments. Once again, by no means am I telling you what to do, and you have every right not to listen to me (or most of the other posters here, for that matter) and do whatever the hell you want because this is your life after all.

And I just realized that all of the above of what I just said is probably the nicest way it could be put. I didn't know that it was all gunna come out that way XD

Anywho, that is all.


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## Selene (Aug 2, 2009)

laylay918 said:


> As i said to Brian, i don't care much if the christians i have spoken with are offended by what i have to say, as the ones who i talked to are stupid anyways. And yes, i do believe it is important to debate against religion. I don't like having to live in a world where atheists get executed because they are not of a certain religion (i.e. middle east).
> 
> Religion causes people to do immoral things, and if you wish me to prove it, just go to the reddit.com/atheism section and view all the immoral acts in which religious people indulge themselves in. Granted, i know not all religious people partake in immorality, but the fact that religion can elicit immorality in the first place is what i despise. As well as this, i feel the need to bring up the topic of religion to the people i care about, as i feel it is important to share my views on the world with them.
> 
> ...


These are some things that I think you've either said or hinted at that I can agree with, and that I think many religious people might be able to agree with also.



Some religious people believe things without really knowing why, except that it has been told to them. 
Some religious people are very anti-scientific, and it can be difficult to be around them if you value reasoning, fair and open investigation, and everyone having an equal right to assert what truth is. 
It is wrong for a person to be executed because of their religious beliefs or lack thereof. 
History has many examples of heinous actions committed in the name of religion. 
In the present day, vocally religious people are not always very tolerant or open-minded on social issues; often it is vocally secular people embracing humanistic values against religious opposition. 
There are some things in religious texts which, if understood literally, are nonsensical or immoral. 
Based on the reasons above, it seems like religion understood a certain way can influence people negatively. 
Faith, understood a certain way, might cause a person to be blindly accepting or conforming. 
Some organized groups (religious ones in this case) put pressure upon people to accept beliefs or ideas in such a way that it discourages and stunts people's ability to trust themselves and find their own answers that feel right in their own experience. 
Considered literally or in everyday terms, the myth of Christianity may seem a bit absurd. 
Considered literally or crudely in everyday terms, the depiction of God in the Old Testament can seem a bit barbaric. 
 
Despite all of this, I view religion very positively.


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## hailfire (Dec 16, 2012)

@Selene, I meant to mention you in my previous pot along with the others, but I had failed to do so because I forgot. My apologies. And your above post gives more reason to have you mentioned, because I agree with what you just said 
I am Catholic and understand and agree with all of what you said. You can still have a faith and be reasonable with it.


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## FlaviaGemina (May 3, 2012)

laylay918 said:


> *because i have a propensity *for attempting to cause other people to renounce their religion. .


No you don't. It's a choice. You can't blame your behaviour on a "propensity". Having said that, I can't tell you that you _must_ make friends with religious people, because that's entirely up to you and it's probably best if you don't make friends with such people at the moment. 
As I said, I'm somewhat of an atheist myself and I am familiar with all the arguments you listed. However, if you want to go around calling people stupid and blaming people for crimes that they neither personally committed nor support, ... well, that's up to you. One can only wish you good luck.


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## EbonyTigger (Apr 13, 2012)

I've only scan-read this thread because I'm too tired to read it properly, the only idea I've come up with is doing something you enjoy and making new friends doing whatever you enjoy?

Sorry if this post isn't even coherant I need to go back to bed even though it's lunchtime


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## laylay918 (Jul 23, 2012)

FlaviaGemina said:


> No you don't. It's a choice. You can't blame your behaviour on a "propensity". Having said that, I can't tell you that you _must_ make friends with religious people, because that's entirely up to you and it's probably best if you don't make friends with such people at the moment.
> As I said, I'm somewhat of an atheist myself and I am familiar with all the arguments you listed. However, if you want to go around calling people stupid and blaming people for crimes that they neither personally committed nor support, ... well, that's up to you. One can only wish you good luck.


i don't blame people for the crimes which religion causes, i blame religion for causing those crimes.


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## laylay918 (Jul 23, 2012)

Selene said:


> These are some things that I think you've either said or hinted at that I can agree with, and that I think many religious people might be able to agree with also.
> 
> Despite all of this, I view religion very positively.


i don't see why you would. religion has done absolutely no good for mankind.


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## Selene (Aug 2, 2009)

laylay918 said:


> i don't see why you would. religion has done absolutely no good for mankind.


The atheist pantheon (hehe) talking about numinous experiences:





What they seem to say is that there are certain spiritually significant experiences that are very meaningful. Their point in a nutshell is that religion legitimizes itself by being the only game in town that acknowledges those experiences and takes them seriously. But, these experiences need not be interpreted within religious language in order to be meaningful (just as religion doesn't have a monopoly on morality.) I agree with this idea that spiritual experiences and personal development don't need to be described within a religious context.

However, I feel that religions set themselves apart by the fact that they provide a systematic framework for developing and describing these experiences and altering the basic architecture of one's personality. Religion operates on many levels (e.g. cultural, social, moral, existential, psychotherapeutic, spiritual), but I see mysticism as the main/unique thing it has to offer.

If you look at some of the medieval Christian texts like The Ascent of Mount Carmel or Theologia Germanica, they're describing a systematic process for purifying one's consciousness -- with the idea that there is something special or powerful that one can perceive and understand when this practice is taken to its limit. These texts take much of the allegory and symbolism in the Bible and unpack it.

I went to a Catholic church service this morning. (I'm not really Christian, it just so happened that a friend of mine wrote a hymn that was being performed by the choir at his church.) And, it just kind of struck me that...here's a place where it's okay to sit still, to be polite, to show reverence and respect, and to let go of so many of the expectations and thoughts of everyday stuff. Here's a place where everyone is gathered to praise and glorify what they see as the pinnacle of human perfection and the possibility of transcending our limitations. Some places and people are just cleaner than others, and simply by being around them or absorbing them, you feel like a better person. And, I just felt much fresher and calmer when I left. It was nice.

If you do a ritual or observe a symbol with certain feelings over and over, that conditions an emotional connection with that object in which the mere presence or thought of that object brings you back into that same state of mind. (Progressive relaxation, autogenics, and autohypnosis operate on this same principle.) I feel like prayer or meditation is putting yourself into a certain state of mind, and then gradually strengthening and extending that until it becomes part of your nature and happens spontaneously and continuously.

I don't think the origin of religion is people trying to control others. I think the origin of religion is rare instances where a person has some amazing experience that gives them some kind of universal insight. So then they become a prophet or teacher and try to share what they have learned with other people so that they too can reach the same heights. (This is ideal religion...of course people aren't so perfect in reality, just like not all atheists are completely selfless saviors trying to rescue humanity from ignorance because they are so caring and wise. ^_^)


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## Narrator (Oct 11, 2009)

laylay918 said:


> With that being said, i feel the need to mention again that i never attacked him personally, just his religion. *It's his own stupidity for taking it so seriously*, and people this stupid, i believe, deserve to be castigated. It is within my intention that i don't befriend another religious person, because i have a propensity for attempting to cause other people to renounce their religion. Regardless, I never called him stupid, although i think he is. No directly personal attacks were ever made towards him from me. However, what i did tell him was that i thought christianity is stupid, and pointed out countless flaws.
> Also, i honestly don't view my disputes as "attacks" unless i insult them. If the people i befriend are so sensitive as to perceive mere arguments as "attacks", then i don't think i would want to be around that person. I'll just look for an ENTP friend, someone who loves to debate.
> By the way, the only person who i really attacked was wickedqueen, but only because she provoked me first, but according to some other person on this forum, they said it was just queen's style of confrontation.


Your thread title really contradicts the notion that you're happy to wipe your hands of friends x, y and z to me. It doesn't focus on moving forwards and finding new ones, it's about them. I think this is partly why WQ brought up what she did, among other things in your post.

You actions towards your religious friend communicated your lack of respect for him, moreover you criticised a core belief he holds, for some people those things are connected with their emotions. He's different to you, not inferior. People arn't -you-, nor are they telepathic. Don't you think it's a bit harsh to be so cutting about them for not being on the same emotional or mental wavelength?

...And "deserve to be castigated" If he's not talking to you now...surely any castigation would have to come before that point?


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