# Guys and Sex in a Relationship



## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

Regardless that many women enjoy sex, it is commonly viewed as more necessary for men. Guys are typically the ones viewed as "only wanting one thing." There are many jokes and anecdotes implying such. But even besides guys wanting sex with no strings attached there is still a lot of it in established relationships. Going to a chick flick so he'll "get some" later. Women withholding sex when they are angry. All kinds of things. I'd even say that most sexual conflicts within relationships fit in this theme. My wife, for example, has a low sex drive, and everything has to be perfect for it to happen. She seems to resent me for wanting or needing it, grouping me in the category of "men" and ridiculing the group for it being such a big deal to them. It is kind of viewed the same as men playing video games. Like it is a sign we are immature. It is obvious to me that she and probably many other women don't understand what sex is for us. It is certainly not just physical lust.

After the last time we had sex, I realized what it meant to me in a way I could put into words. So I wrote a short poem-like thing about it:



> When you kiss me,
> when you hug me,
> when you lay your head on me,
> when you caress me,
> ...


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

Elaminopy said:


> Regardless that many women enjoy sex, it is commonly viewed as more necessary for men. Guys are typically the ones viewed as "only wanting one thing." There are many jokes and anecdotes implying such. But even besides guys wanting sex with no strings attached there is still a lot of it in established relationships. Going to a chick flick so he'll "get some" later. Women withholding sex when they are angry. All kinds of things. I'd even say that most sexual conflicts within relationships fit in this theme. My wife, for example, has a low sex drive, and everything has to be perfect for it to happen. She seems to resent me for wanting or needing it, grouping me in the category of "men" and ridiculing the group for it being such a big deal to them. It is kind of viewed the same as men playing video games. Like it is a sign we are immature. It is obvious to me that she and probably many other women don't understand what sex is for us. It is certainly not just physical lust.
> 
> After the last time we had sex, I realized what it meant to me in a way I could put into words. So I wrote a short poem-like thing about it:


Your poem is beautiful.

And I'm sorry about what is going on. I would never withhold sex from my partner. I know that it's one of the most validating acts you can give to your partner.

I personally get crushed if I get rejected physically.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

^ Agree with pink on this.

Also, different people have different intensity and frequency of sex-drive. I don't think that its a 'bad' 'male' thing, to have a higher sex-drive than your partner. I don't think that it makes one typical, low-brow, whatever the stereotypes are. Clearly from what you expressed in that poem you wrote, its deeper than just satisfying a physical need anyway, (and not that theres anything wrong with satisfying physical needs), just that I think this situation is so far removed from simply that stereotype. So, theres just no need to harbor guilt - if thats what this is about.

I'm a female, and I have often fit this more male role in being more sexually aggressive and demanding. Some can handle it, others cannot. I have had significant others with higher sex-drives, lower. My point is that its not necessarily a male/female divide. Its an individual thing.

Anyway, yes, sex is often about more than satisfying some physical need -- its about connecting. There are perfectly legit scientific reasons why this is so, as well as all of the spiritual and emotional reasons that vary in nuance from person to person. Its sometimes hard to communicate one's feelings, what something -means- to you, to another who may have a different meaning tied into the thing you are discussing. Communication is always important, obviously important here - have you tried to explain _to her_ what sex means to you?


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## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

Promethea said:


> So, theres just no need to harbor guilt - if thats what this is about.


No, there's no guilt. Just trying to communicate it in a comprehensive way, particularly to other people in my wife's position who maybe have my wife's view.



> Communication is always important, obviously important here - have you tried to explain _to her_ what sex means to you?


Yes, but never this eloquently. So far it seems lost on her. I think she knows I need it and even feels guilty about providing it. I don't think she withholds it from me on purpose most of the time, just that it's hard for her to get in the mood and thinks I'm being selfish for wanting it when she's not. I think she doesn't understand my need and possibly thinks I'm exaggerating or making excuses. She says for her it is only physical.


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## SublimeSerendipity (Dec 30, 2010)

@Elaminopy, your poem is beautiful, and so true. I'm sorry you feel like she is withholding sex and I'm sorry that she feels like you are being too demanding. I agree, I think that sex is one of the most intimate ways to show how much you love a person and that by her withholding it she is negating that understanding. 

My boyfriend told me that his one ex-gf played the game of withholding sex when she was mad, telling him he wasn't welcome in bed or in her apartment when she was mad. He learned to rely on sex as a barometer for the health of his relationship. 

With us it's the opposite, I have a higher sex drive than he does so he knows I'm always up for sexy time! And sometimes I want it and he does too but physically he just can't (he has to give 100% to everything and to him quality is more important than quantity so if he can't be in it 100% he doesn't want to at all). 

But I would NEVER use sex (or lack thereof) as a form of manipulation, or currency, or punishment.


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## Shinji Mimura (Aug 1, 2012)

You sound deeply in need of a divorce.


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## Cristy0505 (Oct 8, 2012)

There are some relations that are very sex based and others lack desire between one of sides or both which doesn't mean one side don't love another and such.

I've been on this kind of relationship where I liked other very much but didn't had any desire to kiss or go bed but I liked him very much. And also been in relationships where I liked less and had alot of chemestry, it was a thing of touch from both sides.

Second mentioned relationship is more enjoyable, you have more fun it's like passion of begin but after being together for long time a fira that doesn't burn out. But it's doesn't mean first example isn't good neither or that you will love/like less (in some cases the male side even get even more excited as it's rare thing ) it's more a sweet friendship with occasional sex.

Also there are womans that don't like to have much sex. Like not all the people like to hug alot or kiss alot, etc.


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## Kyandigaru (Mar 11, 2012)

Im with the few women on here and will say that, withholding sex is a weird idea. To me personally, its a form of control. Its like saying, _I'm not going to let you love me, until you do something right. _and that to me is not playing your part as a partner. I'm not saying, I'd divorce however, it would put a damper on my ego if my guy told me, No! 

Pay attention to your wife and how she's feeling, what she's saying and most of all, DO-ing.


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## Siren (Jun 25, 2011)

I feel like could have written that poem.

I would never use sex as a weapon, but I would withhold sex IF my partner was not making me feel loved and cared for in our relationship in general (as opposed to because of one specific event I was mad about). My sex drive is through the roof, so it would be meaningful if I didn't want to be intimate. Sex is very important on many levels.


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## JoanCrawford (Sep 27, 2012)

What is it exactly that needs to be "perfect" for her? Is she one of those woman that need mood-lighted candles to get horned up?


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## Cristy0505 (Oct 8, 2012)

I would not have sex if I'm not in the mood.

Things must happen not because one side or another *have* to do it but because both sides are wanting this. There many things involved. It sucks when you do it just for other pleasure.

Best thing is when there's a different touch -or at least you feel it different than usual-, different look, different body heat... Both in tune...

We people from south america use to say that's a thing from skin (touch of skin) , chemestry between two bodies. Like an magnetic thing you just can't control.

And I don't know about other womans but I just feel what I described when I like very much somebody.


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## mental blockstack (Dec 15, 2011)

Well yeah, it's a prize to be won, among other things.

It's only immature when you blame or smash the game for being too difficult to play.


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## 626Stitch (Oct 22, 2010)

> You sound deeply in need of a divorce.


why? because they have mismatched sex drives? 

Its quite common for partners to have a high sexual intensity in the begining before a difference of libido asserts itself. I know from other posts that none of your relationships have lasted the amount of time this procces usually takes to happen.


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## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

JoanCrawford said:


> What is it exactly that needs to be "perfect" for her? Is she one of those woman that need mood-lighted candles to get horned up?


Hmm, well no period of course. She can't get turned on if she's sick, like even a cold. The kids have to be asleep. She has to have had a good day and she can't be too tired. But she doesn't want to go to bed until she's too tired. It has to be at night because the kids wake up before we do and are bugging us for breakfast at 8 in the morning on a Saturday. She can't be upset at me in the least. And she can't be in pain, which she usually is.

From my experience, if all those factors are met, then it's a toss-up if she will be in the mood or not. Of the times she has and hasn't, besides the above things, I haven't been able to find any pattern. If we're gone on a vacation away from the kids she is much more apt to. I used to think that it had to do with how much I helped her around the house and how many shows of love I gave her, but even when I seem to dedicate my whole day to her, doing things for her, helping her with everything, offering to do things, spending time with her, she goes to bed in a better mood but it hasn't seemed to affect _that_​ mood.


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## JoanCrawford (Sep 27, 2012)

Elaminopy said:


> Hmm, well no period of course. She can't get turned on if she's sick, like even a cold. The kids have to be asleep. She has to have had a good day and she can't be too tired. But she doesn't want to go to bed until she's too tired. It has to be at night because the kids wake up before we do and are bugging us for breakfast at 8 in the morning on a Saturday. She can't be upset at me in the least. And she can't be in pain, which she usually is.
> 
> From my experience, if all those factors are met, then it's a toss-up if she will be in the mood or not. Of the times she has and hasn't, besides the above things, I haven't been able to find any pattern. If we're gone on a vacation away from the kids she is much more apt to. I used to think that it had to do with how much I helped her around the house and how many shows of love I gave her, but even when I seem to dedicate my whole day to her, doing things for her, helping her with everything, offering to do things, spending time with her, she goes to bed in a better mood but it hasn't seemed to affect _that_​ mood.


Maybe you should try masturbation instead? It's consistent, you can do it whenever you want. You can even get some pleasurable toys for yourself. Of course, you will not get the emotional factor that you do with your partner, but the same stimulation can be simulated.
EDIT:
Found this sight for masturbatory sex toys, view at your own discretion. Men's Sex Toys at SexToy.com


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## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

JoanCrawford said:


> Maybe you should try masturbation instead? It's consistent, you can do it whenever you want. You can even get some pleasurable toys for yourself. Of course, you will not get the emotional factor that you do with your partner, but the same stimulation can be simulated.
> EDIT:
> Found this sight for masturbatory sex toys, view at your own discretion. Men's Sex Toys at SexToy.com


lol, thanks. Already do that (not with the toys). Once in a while she helps. That is nice. It's halfway there.


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## Vivid Melody (Apr 25, 2011)

I suggest seriously trying to fully appreciate her for all the other things she provides for you. You listed a lot of the physical ones (non sexual) but you consider them to be of lesser value than her fulfilling your sexual needs. When she is providing for your "lesser" physical needs she is also showing you she loves you but you don't perceive it to be so. How is her loving you in those ways less valid? It is only less valid because you consider it to be so. But you have the ability to view things in a different way if you choose. I say this for your own sake. 

You should not help someone in order to get something. That is not loving them. You should help someone because it gives you joy and in turn it also brings them joy. You must find the joy in those things and accept her the way she is or you will never be satisfied with her. Ever. But of course, that is your choice.


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## Zletta (Sep 25, 2012)

I might suggest getting creative.
Think of ways in which she would be willing to somehow be involved while you masturbate, for example.

Communicate with her as much as you can.
Explain your feelings to her.
Tell her how much you value intimacy with her and that you want to be near her even if she's not up for sex.
Come up with ways to comprimise.
If it isn't too weird and if you and her are "list" people, write down all the intimate activities that you enjoy that possibly don't require her to have a sex drive for or that might not use up much of her energy for. Then, maybe, she could underline anything on the list that she might consider.
I don't know... maybe something as simple as her holding onto your upper thigh or kissing you or intertwining her legs with yours would mean a lot to you while you're doing your thing? Whatever works for the two of you.
Good luck!


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## Das Brechen (Nov 26, 2011)

By seeing how much you crave physical intimacy, that's just ammunition to manipulate you into doing whatever she wants. If she even notices you're jumping through hoops to please her and doesn't seem to reciprocate in kind, makes it seem kind of suspect. I hope this doesn't turn into deep-seated resentment later because the kids will pick up on that.


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## NT the DC (May 31, 2012)

You should tell your wife:
Sex is natural, sex is fun, sex is best when it's one on one.

Then shake your ass in tight denim jeans.

And say:

C-c-c-c-c-come on


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## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

Vivid Melody said:


> I suggest seriously trying to fully appreciate her for all the other things she provides for you. You listed a lot of the physical ones (non sexual) but you consider them to be of lesser value than her fulfilling your sexual needs. When she is providing for your "lesser" physical needs she is also showing you she loves you but you don't perceive it to be so. How is her loving you in those ways less valid? It is only less valid because you consider it to be so. But you have the ability to view things in a different way if you choose. I say this for your own sake.
> 
> You should not help someone in order to get something. That is not loving them. You should help someone because it gives you joy and in turn it also brings them joy. You must find the joy in those things and accept her the way she is or you will never be satisfied with her. Ever. But of course, that is your choice.


It feels less valid. I show her I love her by complimenting her often. She doesn't think of that as showing love nearly as much as other things. I can't change my needs. I can tell myself that she is showing love all I want, but in the end it is just trying to convince myself. I know she loves me and I know when she does things that show she loves me, but I don't feel it.

And I very rarely do things so that she will reward me with what I want. I started doing a lot more because it became apparent that it was a source of unhappiness for her. I do them for her so she can relax and not be as stressed and be happier. I don't enjoy doing them, but I enjoy thinking that maybe it will help her to be happier. But looking back, I can also notice that it hasn't affected what she does for me at all. She just thanks me for doing things for her and appears happier. I don't ask anything in return, but I don't get anything, either. Then, one time I slacked off, back to how I used to be, one day, and she was upset. And that night she just happened to be really cuddly and seemed in the mood. When she then said she was tired and going to sleep and noticed I was unhappy, she attacked me for only caring if I got sex, then went and slept on the couch and proceeded to ask how I can expect her to "fuck" me when I didn't do what she expected me to do that day. This was after several weeks of no sex when she seemed happy. I said that sex was a reward and she said that it was as far as she was concerned.


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

Elaminopy said:


> Hmm, well no period of course. She can't get turned on if she's sick, like even a cold. The kids have to be asleep. She has to have had a good day and she can't be too tired. But she doesn't want to go to bed until she's too tired. It has to be at night because the kids wake up before we do and are bugging us for breakfast at 8 in the morning on a Saturday. She can't be upset at me in the least. And she can't be in pain, which she usually is.
> 
> From my experience, if all those factors are met, then it's a toss-up if she will be in the mood or not. Of the times she has and hasn't, besides the above things, I haven't been able to find any pattern. If we're gone on a vacation away from the kids she is much more apt to. I used to think that it had to do with how much I helped her around the house and how many shows of love I gave her, but even when I seem to dedicate my whole day to her, doing things for her, helping her with everything, offering to do things, spending time with her, she goes to bed in a better mood but it hasn't seemed to affect _that_​ mood.


You need to work your ass off to take her out of the mom role. If she is devoted to the marriage, she will commit to letting you take her out of the mom role at least once a week.

You need to take her out away from the kids . It's going to take her a bit to let go, so give it time . I'm sure any couples' therapist will tell you this. It's worth money to pay on dates and baby sitters. _It will save your marriage if you date her again._



Elaminopy said:


> It feels less valid. I show her I love her by complimenting her often. She doesn't think of that as showing love nearly as much as other things. I can't change my needs. I can tell myself that she is showing love all I want, but in the end it is just trying to convince myself. I know she loves me and I know when she does things that show she loves me, but I don't feel it.
> 
> And I very rarely do things so that she will reward me with what I want. I started doing a lot more because it became apparent that it was a source of unhappiness for her. I do them for her so she can relax and not be as stressed and be happier. I don't enjoy doing them, but I enjoy thinking that maybe it will help her to be happier. But looking back, I can also notice that it hasn't affected what she does for me at all. She just thanks me for doing things for her and appears happier. I don't ask anything in return, but I don't get anything, either. Then, one time I slacked off, back to how I used to be, one day, and she was upset. And that night she just happened to be really cuddly and seemed in the mood. When she then said she was tired and going to sleep and noticed I was unhappy, she attacked me for only caring if I got sex, then went and slept on the couch and proceeded to ask how I can expect her to "fuck" me when I didn't do what she expected me to do that day. This was after several weeks of no sex when she seemed happy.


Wow. This is not okay for her to do. It is abusive to withhold sex. It's not a reward when _both of you get off having sex._ She needs to be reminded of that by a therapist or something. She is not just doing you a favor by having sex with you, _she is also doing herself a favor._ She doesn't realize that. She needs to work with a really good therapist. This can destroy a marriage and it does all the time. It's not okay to lock someone into monogamous celibacy. 

But unfortunately, if you were to tell her any of that, she will just argue it. So the two things that are really within your control are to 1. Take her out, away from the kids and date her again. 2. Suggest couples' counseling.

However, I think it's really individual counseling that would really help her. She is destroying her marriage and doesn't realize it. Those are really her issues that are affecting you.

I could suggest some books that couples can do together. But you really need a willing party. Your wife has to want to change. That's why I think going to couple's counseling and you taking her consistently out of the mom role will help tremendously. She is fighting for control inappropriately so anything else you suggest is going to be met with resistance.

If she is a stay-at-home mom, _really_ be supportive if she is talking about a career or a part time job, or working from home, etc. This will help her to feel much more in control if she feels she is contributing and in control of her life.


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## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

pinkrasputin said:


> You need to work your ass off to take her out of the mom role. If she is devoted to the marriage, she will commit to letting you take her out of the mom role at least once a week.
> 
> You need to take her out away from the kids . It's going to take her a bit to let go, so give it time . I'm sure any couples' therapist will tell you this. It's worth money to pay on dates and baby sitters. _It will save your marriage if you date her again._
> 
> ...


Wow, lots of good relevant advice. But it certainly gives me some things to say.

First of all, I forgot to add that during the night she slept on the couch, she also said, "I don't need sex to be happy. You do." Granted, I was part of the argument and kept it going. But she initially got upset when she realized I was unhappy that I wasn't going to get any.

I get paid twice a month and we set aside $20 for Entertainment and $10 for babysitting from each paycheck. We usually go out to dinner, like Olive Garden or Red Lobster, then go to a movie. We have good movie prices around here, so the $20 just barely covers the 2 tickets and popcorn and drinks. My sister babysits for the $10. Usually she's tired when she gets home and either wants to go to bed or get on Facebook. Sometimes she would rather do something else like miniature golf or pool or bowling. Those are her 3 ideas besides going dancing at a bar. Her hips are messed up from her last pregnancy, so it's painful for her to dance or bowl. Miniature golf isn't usually open that late, but pool works. The times we've done those other things she says she had a lot of fun, but I've noticed it doesn't translate into horny.

She is a stay-at-home mom and recently took on our friend's 2 boys Mon, Wed, and Fri while their mom works. She's getting really into photography and I support her all I can. Even bought her a nice camera and lens. I watch the kids while she has photo shoots on weekends, which she's been having frequently. She's trying to learn Photoshop now. It's tiring her out more, so I've been helping out around the house more.

Lastly, we've actually been going to couple's counselling for a couple months now, once a week. So far the counselor's focus seems to be more on me and understanding her emotions and attending to them, since my emotional awareness seems to need some work. And helping her around the house and stuff. I honestly think she sides with my wife to give her an ally since I seem to be so intense.


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

Elaminopy said:


> Wow, lots of good relevant advice. But it certainly gives me some things to say.
> 
> First of all, I forgot to add that during the night she slept on the couch, she also said, "I don't need sex to be happy. You do." Granted, I was part of the argument and kept it going. But she initially got upset when she realized I was unhappy that I wasn't going to get any.
> 
> ...


Honey, you are not being validated. Can you get individual counseling?

Your wife is trying to also test you to make sure you love her beyond the sex. This is crazy. You are not the man who needs to do this. You are not some man she just slept with who she just met from a bar and now needs to question his intentions. _You are the man who married her, who devoted his life to her, who raises children with her, who has seen her body go through all kinds of physical changes, yet is *still sexually attracted to her.*_

She isn't thinking logically that the quickest way to throw her husband into the arms of someone else, is to consistently deny him sex.

She can't change unless she wants to.

And I feel your pain when it comes to couple's counseling. I believe my exhusband's and my couple's counselor wanted to sleep with my ex. She even wrote the court letters on his behalf during our divorce. I would at the very least, suggest switching counselors. In hindsight, I totally wish I had done this. It is imperative that you both feel like you are receiving unbiased advice. It is unethical for a couple's counselor to side with one party, but unfortunately they do.

How did I know your wife was stay-at-home? Because this is a common dynamic that happens. 

The only thing you can do is find yourself an individual counselor who can give you support and recomendations. You need someone on your side.

I cannot relate to your wife at all because when I saw my sex drive waning in my marriage, out of my own drive, went to a therapist with the goal of "I want to learn how to want sex with my husband all the time." And I worked HARD on myself and all kinds of personal issues. If there is anyone who could use "excuses", it would be me. I've had many traumas in my past, but I didn't let them stop me from becoming healthy and having a healthy sexual relationship.

I just don't know what to do in your situation. She needs to want individual therapy so she can stop trying to passively take control. Books like "For Yourself" and "For Each Other" by Lonnie Barbach will only help if she is willing to read them according to her own willingness. 

Right now, she is being selfish. Very selfish. You have a right to be upset, but you can't FORCE a person to do something they don't want to do, which is a lesson your wife needs to learn herself as well.

Get yourself individual counseling. You need to be supported. Not even your couple's counselor is supporting you. No wonder you're reaching out here. Maybe read "For Each Other" on your own? So you at least learn why the sexual dynamic is a microcosm for your entire relationship. Good luck.


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## Vivid Melody (Apr 25, 2011)

Elaminopy said:


> It feels less valid. I show her I love her by complimenting her often. She doesn't think of that as showing love nearly as much as other things. I can't change my needs. I can tell myself that she is showing love all I want, but in the end it is just trying to convince myself. I know she loves me and I know when she does things that show she loves me, but I don't feel it.
> 
> And I very rarely do things so that she will reward me with what I want. I started doing a lot more because it became apparent that it was a source of unhappiness for her. I do them for her so she can relax and not be as stressed and be happier. I don't enjoy doing them, but I enjoy thinking that maybe it will help her to be happier. But looking back, I can also notice that it hasn't affected what she does for me at all. She just thanks me for doing things for her and appears happier. I don't ask anything in return, but I don't get anything, either. Then, one time I slacked off, back to how I used to be, one day, and she was upset. And that night she just happened to be really cuddly and seemed in the mood. When she then said she was tired and going to sleep and noticed I was unhappy, she attacked me for only caring if I got sex, then went and slept on the couch and proceeded to ask how I can expect her to "fuck" me when I didn't do what she expected me to do that day. This was after several weeks of no sex when she seemed happy. I said that sex was a reward and she said that it was as far as she was concerned.


What kinds of things do you compliment her on? Nearly as much as other things? So in what way does she herself feel loved? Sounds corny but everyone really does have a different love language. Of course we express all of them to varying degrees but we have a main one that we tend to "speak" in regularly which is connected to personality.

All right, then you do not know she loves you. As you said, you're just trying to convince yourself. You don't feel it, you don't think it. Therefore, you do not know it. One only knows what they understand. If you can't reason out why she loves you or even feel it then you believe she does not love you and that may be so. I am not sure but then, she probably feels much the same about you from the sound of it. Anyway, nothing wrong with admitting that you don't know or feel or think she loves you. First step is in acknowledging that and not in denying it so you can improve (feel happy inside of yourself despite that fact) and move on. You cannot control others after all, only your own behavior.

That may be so but in this particuliar instance it seemed to be the case - "I used to think that it had to do with how much I helped her around the house and how many shows of love I gave her, but even when I seem to dedicate my whole day to her, doing things for her, helping her with everything, offering to do things, spending time with her, she goes to bed in a better mood but it hasn't seemed to affect that​ mood." - you were measuring her sexual mood. You must learn to not seek it if you want to feel fulfilled in this particular marriage. You must find fulfillment in other areas - other hobbies which you are interested in as an individual.

You say it was a source of happiness for her but was doing things for her bringing you happiness as well? that is what I mean by love. Pleasure is found in both roles when love is involved. It is okay to admit that you have not been loving or feel loved. We've all been there. You can't progress until you admit that. And honestly, I can relate to both of you at various times. It has nothing to do with being male or female. It has to do with the state of one's own heart.

Okay, maybe you are not verbally asking for anything in return but in your heart you still have these expectations. It is all the same. We act and speak out of what is on our hearts.

I don't feel like you feel it's okay to be REALLY honest with her because you know she will reject you if you are. I think you need to be honest with yourself. This woman doesn't make you feel loved. Now you need to figure out how to deal with that knowledge, accept it and learn to love yourself in a way that is separate from her or you will be trapped in this cycle of not feeling loved forever and therefore not really be able to give true love either. We can only truly love when we ourselves believe that we are loved.

Well it sounds like she gets off on ordering you around. I guess her love language is acts of service. Does she enjoy being dominant in the bedroom? The woman wants to be valued for more than her physical attributes. To you, sex is clearly more than physical - it is an expression of your love for her. I guess your love language is physical touch. However, she perceives sex completely differently (only physical) and so she probably thinks (I'm guessing) that you perceive it the same way as she does. Projection. 

Personally I think you are BOTH too focused on your own love languages. There is much pleasure to be had in other areas that you probably have not discovered yet because you don't believe pleasure can be found in other pleasures that rival physical pleasure. 

Well I think you need to attend to your own emotions. You keep trying to satisfy your needs and desires through her while neglecting your own self it would seem. She makes you feel badly about playing video games too? This is something non sexual which brings you pleasure. She has no business telling you you cannot enjoy this kind of activity unless it is SERIOUSLY getting in the way of taking care of her needs or the kids' needs. She's on a power trip. She needs to learn to love her own self too instead of trying to sap all your energy because she feels stressed out. She places expectations on you just as much as you place them on her. You both do it. This does not make you bad people. It just makes you human. 

You both have areas you need to work on. Her emotional awareness needs just as much help as yours. I think you both need to learn how to forgive each other. Forgiving someone does not require that the other change. it only requires that you fully understand what they did to you and you are choosing to let it go and learn how to love you and her equally next time. I'm not telling you to become a doormat. Just learn to meet your own needs and desires in a way that does not require sex because right now, she is unable to give that to you without feeling like she had something stolen from her (this is not an expression of love). Maybe one day she will be there though. People change their minds all the time. My husband once told me he doesn't need sex to be happy either which is true - he does not. However, he genuinely loves having sex with me (which he is well aware of). So both can be true at the same time. 

Sex is a kind of reward. There is truth in this. A reward is not a bad thing. A reward is something to be happy about so what's the sense in getting upset over it? I don't think either one of you understand what the other is trying to say. Her body is just as sacred as is yours. But then, everything about you two is sacred - your inner thoughts and feelings - all of it. So it is not right to cherish one part of yourself or herself over another part - (example - physical over emotional/mental and in her case emotional/mental over physical). I know they all interconnect and most people would agree that this is true and yet they do not act like this is true so they do not really know this is true. Living life to the fullest involves knowing this is true in full.

Obviously divorce should be a last resort when kids are involved and I credit you two for going to marital counseling.


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## 626Stitch (Oct 22, 2010)

> You need to work your ass off to take her out of the mom role. If she is devoted to the marriage, she will commit to letting you take her out of the mom role at least once a week.
> 
> You need to take her out away from the kids . It's going to take her a bit to let go, so give it time . I'm sure any couples' therapist will tell you this. It's worth money to pay on dates and baby sitters. _It will save your marriage if you date her again._


So he does everything and she just puts out lol. This thread is making me feel really cynicall about marrige.


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

626Stitch said:


> So he does everything and she just puts out lol.


No, that is completely opposite of what I'm saying. Wow, you really misread that.


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## MelissaC (May 23, 2012)

I feel your pain. Mismatched sex drives was a major--MAJOR--instigating factor in my divorce (he was low-drive, I was relatively high). It cheapens sex when you begin to feel like it's something that has to be earned, and that's an understatement. It absolutely strips sex of its positive attributes, belittles it to a purely physical "favor" or "deed". So then even when you do have sex, it feels meaningless. 

The sex I had in my marriage felt exponentially more empty than any casual "hook-up" sex I've ever had. Truly. At least fucking is never approached as a chore (in my experience) in casual circumstances, whereas with my ex-husband there was always the acute sense that he was simply going through the motions to appease me. 

If she's willing to try counseling and it works, fantastic. Otherwise I'd suggest exploring other options, of which there are many. Obviously sex means next to nothing to her so she has no solid ground from which to object an open relationship, for instance. 

In my case the only way to get my husband to not walk all over me anymore was to walk out on him. 

Also, the masturbation suggestions were laughable. In what world does masturbation stand as a substitute for intimate, human-to-human connection? 

Best of luck to you.


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## 626Stitch (Oct 22, 2010)

> Originally Posted by *626Stitch*  So he does everything and she just puts out lol.
> No, that is completely opposite of what I'm saying. Wow, you really misread that.


I didn't read the second half when I posted this. My apolagies, the post was more of a gratuitous swipe than a contribution.


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## sparkles (Mar 2, 2011)

No one brought up love languages? OP yours is probably physical touch as a primary.... and if your wife doesn't respond to affirming words, but does respond to you helping out, maybe her primary language is acts of service?

Or wait. Does she get more cuddly when you buy her stuff? Then her main language is likely receiving gifts. 

You two need to talk about love languages, and see whose is what, and you both need to be committed to speaking the other's language. Right now it sounds like your wife is complacent, and has all the power because she doesn't need what you need in the same way. But she needs to understand how HURTFUL it is for her to hold it over your head like that. That's really rather cruel.

I have a higher sex drive than my partner (sort of... I still need to be warmed up but I'm always willing). But even if it were reversed I would not withhold sex. I made the mistake of doing so in a past relationship, but now I see it was just my way of avoiding emotional closeness. I was afraid I would lose my individuality so I put up obstacles. I won't do that again. I will instead just talk about the fear if it is there. 

I agree with pinkrasputin that you need to work at helping your wife feel like a wife, not just a mother. And she needs to get over herself and her attitude of "I don't need this and you do and whatever." And it probably goes without saying but if you're trying to get physical intimacy more often, you need to be absolutely sure you warm her up adequately. And use lube anyway


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

One of the reasons why marriage always sounds like a bad idea. And no, masturbation isn't a substitute for sex.


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## Cristy0505 (Oct 8, 2012)

Like to be honest when a couple doesn't get in tune about sex thing they can work as harder as they can and it won't get better.

I've lived with a bf and we were like this we've been together for many years and we liked each other very much but sex wasn't good. I was never in the mood last years we been together we did like twice in a year. He seemed to want it but I never wanted. Like your wife told you I didn't feel the need of sex indeed.

It seems like from her part there's no physical attraction -when I say physical I mean sexual.

I thought every long relationship was like this after few months we get used to each other and lose interest but then after I been in a 1 year relationship that been all the time just like begin we had much physical attraction for each other we always were in the mood... People have to match I guess.


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## StaceofBass (Jul 1, 2012)

I can't withold sex from my partner...he'll actually usually withold sex from me which will make me frustrated and get me all sorts of bitchy (and he may just end up on the couch for the night).

I am extremely passionate and sexual when I am in love with a man. I hope for his sex drive to match or exceed mine or I'm left feeling disappointed and unwanted.


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## Sapphyreopal5 (Jun 11, 2012)

Elaminopy said:


> Regardless that many women enjoy sex, it is commonly viewed as more necessary for men. Guys are typically the ones viewed as "only wanting one thing." There are many jokes and anecdotes implying such. But even besides guys wanting sex with no strings attached there is still a lot of it in established relationships. Going to a chick flick so he'll "get some" later. Women withholding sex when they are angry. All kinds of things. I'd even say that most sexual conflicts within relationships fit in this theme. My wife, for example, has a low sex drive, and everything has to be perfect for it to happen. She seems to resent me for wanting or needing it, grouping me in the category of "men" and ridiculing the group for it being such a big deal to them. It is kind of viewed the same as men playing video games. Like it is a sign we are immature. It is obvious to me that she and probably many other women don't understand what sex is for us. It is certainly not just physical lust.
> 
> After the last time we had sex, I realized what it meant to me in a way I could put into words. So I wrote a short poem-like thing about it:


I can relate to having some bitter feelings about sex, even though I have never been married (and am relatively young [21]). The first guy I had sex with (and my first real relationship in that) was very deceptive, manipulative, and well I was in a bad place while dating him (I dated him for most of high school). He did some pretty bad things that is a whole other topic. I will say that those negative experiences (and that toxic relationship in that) really made me feel bitter about sex for quite a while and even relationships generally speaking, although I have worked on changing that (still a little work to do but I’m getting there :happy: )

Point being, I have to wonder why she has such a horrible attitude about sex. I mean I know she’s tired and such a lot from being a stay at home mom and such, I get that. Yet at the same time, why is her attitude towards sex SO bitter? Was she always this way? Why is she making it *your* problem if things don’t go perfect in her world? I can understand that if she is in pain then sex isn’t the best idea, yet I think that if it’s really that much of a problem and is constant, it needs to be looked into *asap*. 

As usual, @pinkrasputin creates posts that make so much sense! I definitely agree that you need to date your wife and make her feel like more than just a mother but a wife too. And quite frankly, I would probably get another couple’s counselor if you feel she is just siding with her instead of actually helping, which doesn’t seem to be the case.

To be honest, I think a week or two long vacation sounds like a good idea (doesn’t matter where, just somewhere a ways away). Have the kids be watched by someone else. Get away from your guys’ responsibilities for some time. Heck, pay for her to have a trip to a spa and/or salon just to be pampered (and get yourself pampered too!). 

I think many people here have pretty sound advice, so to avoid redundancy, I won’t restate the wonderful advice others have already given. 



android654 said:


> One of the reasons why marriage always sounds like a bad idea. And no, masturbation isn't a substitute for sex.


I could not agree more. I mean sometimes we just want to get our business done more quickly and on our own terms (having sex whenever we're horny is a lot of work!), but as a substitute because a SO refuses to have sex so often for whatever reason? Come on, that is kind of pathetic if you ask me. Honestly, in a relationship I am sexually active in, if it occurs rarely like seems to be the case for the OP, THAT is a problem that needs tending to IMO. The last thing I want is to have my SO run to others for support they should be getting from me in the first place.

If they feel they're not getting the support they need from me however, they should be talking to me about it in the first place...


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## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

Vivid Melody said:


> What kinds of things do you compliment her on? Nearly as much as other things?


My typical compliments are like, "Wow, you look good today" or "hey there pretty girl". She doesn't find "girl" degrading. I compliment her cooking sometimes. Usually it's her looks.

@_Vivid Melody_, @_sparkles_, @_Sapphyreopal5_:

Regarding love languages, we both took the test. "Quality Time" was her first one. I thought about it a lot last night and that makes sense. Here's a typical weekday for me after work:

I work until 6 pm, usually more like 6:30. I listen to music and walk home for 10 minutes. I come in the door and am usually greeted by our 7-year-old daughter and 3-year-old son, with enthusiasm. My wife is either making dinner, eating dinner, or on the computer. I find her and hug/kiss her and say hi, asking how her day was. The answer is usually very short. If I had something happen at work that I want to vent about or just tell her about, I do it then. Depending on her mood, she either listens without comment or becomes upset that I'm talking about work. I feel a need to tell these things, though. I try to minimize it.

Then if she's making dinner and there's nothing I can do to help, I do whatever it is I'm into at the time. Reading a book, playing a video game, reading something online... At most I get half an hour. I eat dinner if it's ready. Conversation during dinner is limited because she and I don't find the same kinds of things enjoyable to talk about. I want to talk about a cool thing that happened on the video game I played or the newest progress on the card game I'm designing or the funny or interesting thing I read today or the latest thing Obama or Romney said or "why do those people over there always look upset?" and I'll make up some story or reason. She, on the other hand, wants to talk about what I want for dinner tomorrow or if I can unload the dishwasher after dinner or "can we spend $4 for our daughter's field trip?" or "I'm thinking I'm going to watch so-and-so's kids on these days because of this and this" or "we need to do this tomorrow."

After dinner it's time for the kids to get ready for bed and for dinner cleanup. We just start doing one while the other does the other things. Once the kids are in bed, I continue doing what it is I'm currently into. Usually she's still busy doing something. When she's done with that and comes out and sees me, she does 1 of 3 things. Earlier in our relationship she did the first one a lot more. She immediately goes and does something else. Dishes, laundry, folding... And then I see her later in the night and she tells me she's going to bed because there's nothing else to do and I'd rather do what I'm doing than spend any time with her. I tell her that she was doing other things and she says she was only doing them because I was still doing my thing. Nothing I do after that can convince her otherwise.

The 2nd thing she does is show disapproval at what I'm doing. When I ask why she doesn't like it, she says I'd rather do that than spend time with her. I either stop and spend time with her right away or have her give me a half an hour to an hour and then we do something.

The 3rd thing is a more recent trend. She'll do something she's into as well, like most recently reading "The Hunger Games" and the "Twilight" series before that. Or editing photos. Or something on Facebook or Pinterest. This either lasts until we go to bed or until one of us decides to stop and do something together.

When we do something together, it depends on the day. We share a love of certain TV shows, which are "Once Upon a Time", "Person of Interest", "The Mentalist", and recently "Evolution" and "Elementary". If those shows are on, we watch them. Otherwise, we usually watch whatever movie we have from Netflix. Once in a while we'll do something like play cards or a board game. She doesn't like my card game I made because she says it's too complicated and hard, so we usually play Rummy or Skip-Bo. Then she wants to watch the news for the weather, which is always toward the end, and then it's time for bed and she's ready to go to sleep.

And now I must be honest. For most of my life a relationship has always been a means to an end for me. I mean, at first it was because I wanted to experience it. I didn't have any girlfriends or even any girls like me all through school and I always wanted someone to cuddle with and spend time with. When I got my first girlfriend after moving out on my own, I realized that I quickly got over that. She was a self-proclaimed nymphomaniac and I agree with her. Most of the time I didn't want to have sex and she did. She wanted it at least once a day. We did probably 3-5 times a week and even that was a little much for me.

After her I wanted someone because I was lonely and I wanted sex. That's it. That's all I really wanted a relationship for. I was happy with everything else in my life. I've realized that "love" for me is someone who is interested in what you're interested in, will try it out even if they aren't, likes spending time with you, is attracted to you, and wants to have sex with you. I know that's a pretty shitty description of it, but I've never desired anything more and if I felt anything more, it was lost on me. Of course I would feel bad when she felt bad and hated doing things to make her upset or hurt. I would try to make her feel better and happy. But I think my wife was right all those times she said I only really show I care when she's upset.

My wife was my 2nd girlfriend. We went out because she thought I was cute, I was tired of being alone and was willing to take any opportunity I got. I was 25 and had only had 1 girlfriend despite the many girls I had crushes on and tried to go out with. Beggars can't be choosers, I thought. I started defining my taste in women as women who liked me. We went out one night, she spent the night. I liked the company and the sex. We had sex more often than I did with my ex-girlfriend, but I liked it more and it seemed sweeter. I'm not sure what she liked in me. I guess just being with someone she thought was cute and nice. She had just gotten out of a bad 12-year relationship and was actually still married I found out later. She and her daughter moved in with me and she quit her job.

Then we conceived our son and I realized that this was for real. I looked down the line and decided that I was never going to desert them and have my son be victim to a split family like his sister is, so that logically meant I'd spend the rest of my life with her. Having decided that, I realized that marriage is the best way to do that and dedicated myself to trying to make it work and work happily. I later found out that she married me because of our son as well. After our son she started having more physical ailments. Her hips are sort of loose and they hurt all the time. The only remedy is these exercises that she hates doing. Her feet and legs hurt all the time. She has headaches often. Her back hurts often. Her sex drive has gone down and down. It bugs her at how low it is. We have sex probably once a month now. The only thing that I can see that has changed since we had sex often, besides the physical things in her, is that I'm much more attentive to the family and her than I used to be and much more willing to do things for her. I used to spend most of my time on the computer or playing video games, thinking that my work was at work. So I'm not sure why she seemed happier then. She's said many times that she thinks I'm only with her because of the kids and that I'm settling for her because I don't want to be lonely. She doesn't want anyone to settle for her. She wants to be wanted.

I see it as similar to an arranged marriage. Arranged marriages can work and they can grow to respect and love each other. I more and more feel I love her as we go on and I'm trying more and more to do things that will make her happy. And I'm finding I'm becoming happier just being with her and spending time with her and just at the whole idea of us together. And more and more I love our kids.


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

Elaminopy said:


> My typical compliments are like, "Wow, you look good today" or "hey there pretty girl". She doesn't find "girl" degrading. I compliment her cooking sometimes. Usually it's her looks.
> 
> @_Vivid Melody_, @_sparkles_, @_Sapphyreopal5_:
> 
> ...


Why did your wife quite her job if she "didn't have money of her own"?

I'm sensing your wife has a huge fear of abandonment or has abandonment issues (these are two different things). This is the reason she couldn't be alone for too long. She is also setting up ways to test you and make sure you'll stay "in spite of". Her original abandonment issues may not be from her earlier marriage, it could stem from something earlier in her history. Doesn't matter. She has them. If you leave her because she is not giving you sex, it will be a self fulfilling prophecy for her. You are picking up other men's (her father?) tab in her past. She needs you to adore her. Right now, she is finding out all the ways in which you don't love her and will abandon her.

Be careful. Every time your focus is not on her, it's a sign you will leave her. 

I don't think she knows what sex is for outside of procreation. Do you know if she was molested when younger? What religion was she raised?

Women with abandonment issues will feel more comfortable being with men before they live with them. They subconsciously like it when men are unavailable to them. They are more comfortable doing things when they have to _work_ to get them. Similarly women who were molested as children _especially_ incest survivors, may have a great and healthy sex drive before living together with their mate, or when having sex to get pregnant, but after that- their appetite wanes. They may even find sex disgusting once they live with their partner because they are reminded of their molestation trauma when young and still feel dirty inside.

This is a tricky situation because your wife is not seeking individual counseling on her own to work on her issues. I think your couple's counselor is trying to get you to validate your wife more. But what might frustrate you is that, without your wife having her own awareness on areas in which she needs to work on, you DO have to work harder as a significant other of a survivor and you're not being validated for it. 

I still think you need individual counseling for yourself, simply because I believe you need support BIG TIME.


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## Sapphyreopal5 (Jun 11, 2012)

Elaminopy said:


> My typical compliments are like, "Wow, you look good today" or "hey there pretty girl". She doesn't find "girl" degrading. I compliment her cooking sometimes. Usually it's her looks.
> 
> @_Vivid Melody_, @_sparkles_, @_Sapphyreopal5_:
> 
> ...


I too was trying to get at what @_pinkrasputin_ did about the sexual abuse in the past. Although we are getting just your side of the story (and of course a limited picture in that), I almost feel like she does have some serious insecurity issues one way or another. Were they actually separated/in the process of divorcing when you met? The reason I ask is because to be honest, who knows if the next man comes along who shows her “desire” or who “wants” her more than you do in her eyes? Now I don’t know the details to that but to me that would’ve raised a red flag or two from the start. 

Wait, so she’s complaining you’re only with me for the kids (which you admitted is a primary reason why you two got married in the first place), yet you found out she married you for the same reason in the first place as well? It’s okay for her to do that but not you? Come on now, double standards = not cool! 

IMHO, based on your views of love I almost feel like you have bent your views to “fit” your personal experience rather than what you really want deep down (almost to justify your unhappiness in your marriage in a sense). Yes “arranged marriages” _can_ work… but just because it works and the 2 may have mutual respect for each other and “love” each other, but does that mean they are truly happy or are they just “settling” because they believe they must? Please correct me if I'm wrong at all. 

Again as pink said, you need to be careful with this situation because if she’s right, then things are pretty tricky with her… view of things. Either way, I believe both of you need to really sort out your priorities and see what it is you both really want out of yourselves and even each other. The way things are going now quite frankly is not working for you and it’s not working for her. 

I still say you 2 need a good vacation, as I think it would be highly beneficial to you both to just get away from all your responsibilities for a while and just focus on each other, even if it’s temporary.


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## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

pinkrasputin said:


> Why did your wife quite her job if she "didn't have money of her own"?


Well, she worked where I worked. I met her when I started working there. This was almost exactly 5 years ago. She later got an offer to provide child care for one of her best friends who used to work there with us but quit. My wife, who was then my girlfriend and living with me, took the offer and quit. After a bit, her friend moved out of state. By that time we had our son and we agreed it was best for her to stay at home and raise him. I was raised in a home with 5 younger siblings and my dad was always the sole financial provider. I believed it was right and although my wife was used to being the main financial provider as well as housekeeper and child raiser, she felt it was the best thing to do as well. She always referred to the money as my money, though, even when I insisted it was ours. She had a bad habit, in the beginning, of apologizing for spending my money. I was trying to be a family, I'm sure emulating the environment I grew up in, and it felt like she was always trying to draw a line between us. It seemed like she felt like I was being delusional. I finally convinced her to let me pay for the divorce, despite her insisting she didn't want me paying for her problems, by saying that it is preventing us from being happy and comfortable together as well.



> She is also setting up ways to test you and make sure you'll stay "in spite of".


That's interesting. When we first slept together, she ended up getting pregnant. She didn't know it in time and kept taking some medication she was on and she ended up losing it. But before that, she had a discussion with me about it. She asked if I wanted her to have an abortion. I hadn't even considered it, but thought she was giving me a choice. I didn't want to make that kind of decision, but she kept putting it on me to decide. So I considered our situation and said that we barely know each other, we haven't been together for very long, we don't even know if this is going to work, and she's still married to "him". What kind of a home life is this child going to have? I certainly don't feel ready to have a child, but that's not a good reason on it's own. But coupled with everything else, an abortion seems like the best thing to do. We brought this up to our counselor recently and she surprised me with her interpretation. She said that she was testing me at the time to see if I loved her and would stay with her despite the pregnancy, and that my answer told her she couldn't depend on me and everything since then is going through that filter. I had never thought about abortion before then. I am pro-life now, even more so than my wife, but at the time I was making a cold, logical decision based on too little information.



> Do you know if she was molested when younger?


I know that when she was in high school she was dating her ex-husband and one of his friends liked her. He forced himself on her, then later one of my wife's "friends" who had a crush on the guy who did that became jealous and started spreading rumors that they were sleeping with each other. It got to my wife's grandparents, who were raising her, and they kicked her out to live with her uncle.

She was living with her grandparents because she first met her real dad at 12 and her mom died when she was 14. She lived with her grandparents off and on while her mom was alive because her mom had several abusive partners. My wife's an only child as well.



> What religion was she raised?


Her grandparents raised her in non-denominational Christianity. Her mom wasn't religious.



> This is a tricky situation because your wife is not seeking individual counseling on her own to work on her issues. I think your couple's counselor is trying to get you to validate your wife more.


In our last session our counselor recommended my wife have a session with an individual counselor to determine if she is depressed. My wife's frequently high emotions has been a common theme in our sessions.



> But what might frustrate you is that, without your wife having her own awareness on areas in which she needs to work on, you DO have to work harder as a significant other of a survivor and you're not being validated for it.


That's funny. This whole time it has seemed like I needed to work on things. From my counselor to my wife. When we had that argument and she slept on the couch, she mentioned how I didn't do the chores I said I would do and even though I did them after she came home from her photo shoot, "it doesn't mean shit. All it tells me is that you're still the man I married." She's said several times since we've started going to counseling that she doesn't think I'll ever change. And that only I can change myself and why don't I just do it already. I finally said, "What about the things you need to change?" She said, "What do I need to change? Why did you marry me if you didn't like how I was?" When I asked her why she agreed to marry me, that's when she said it was because of our son.



Sapphyreopal5 said:


> Were they actually separated/in the process of divorcing when you met? The reason I ask is because to be honest, who knows if the next man comes along who shows her “desire” or who “wants” her more than you do in her eyes? Now I don’t know the details to that but to me that would’ve raised a red flag or two from the start.


Well, she was tired of putting up with his manipulation and always turning things around to make her feel guilty and apologize for getting upset at him. He also lied a lot and smoked both cigarettes and pot when he said he wasn't. During the end of her time there, she was working days while he worked nights, so they didn't have to see each other very often. They fought a lot, though. She said the last year she lived there she didn't even consider them a couple anymore, just roommates. When I met her and then soon went out with her, she had only moved out of his house and back in with her grandparents a week prior. She didn't tell me that or that she was still married until a couple weeks later. She and her daughter were living in a tent trailer on her grandparents' property and it was a pretty long drive to work each morning. I live less than half a mile from where we worked, plus I had my own apartment with 2 bedrooms, and we were seeing each other pretty heavily, so I asked her to move in. She had the divorce paperwork and was trying to get him to sign it, but didn't have the money to file it. It took a year or 2 for her to let me pay for it.

When she has been upset and said she wants a divorce, she's said that she doesn't want a relationship with anyone. She just wants to be on her own because she's the only person she can depend on. One time recently she said she would rather die than live like this anymore, and that she doesn't care whom it would hurt if she died because people would have to care about her to be hurt and no one cares about her, but then later calmed down and told me not to tell the counselor because she probably won't do anything to hurt herself.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Your wife either isn't attracted to you, or she's an ISFJ.

Just kidding about the ISFJ part. Sort of.

I think it's ridiculous that men presume all women have a low sex drive. If anything, I get angry at any partner who isn't considering the fact that I'm here to get off too. I'm not just here to make you have an orgasm, stupid, I want one too.

However, I am not going to have sex with someone I'm angry with. Why would I? I mean think about the ludicrousness of what you're saying. "You're acting like a douchebag, I can barely stand to be in the same room with you, and you want to touch me, seriously?" 

I think with some women it's not manipulation, it's just a natural response to their authentic feelings. 

An immature man will fantasize in a childish, narcissistic manner about a woman who is there to serve his every need, and some are so infantile but logical that they actually procure prostitutes or mail-order-brides because they understand that they want a servant, not an equal partner. 

An emotionally evolved adult will understand that his partner has needs too, whether they be physical or emotional. 

However, your wife sounds extreme. Have you considered the possibility that she married you for security or money?


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## Das Brechen (Nov 26, 2011)

From what you wrote earlier OP, you married her out of desperation and she is possibly there because of abandonment issues. Desperation and low self-esteem are not good qualties to go into a legal contract with someone you'll have to support for the rest of your life. This whole situation sounds like it was a ticking time bomb and now both of you have to deal with inner demons. I don't know if you can rectify the situation with romance especially if she's only with you for the security and money now.

I don't advocate marrying solely for love as to me it's one of the most reckless things you can do as a man. I would find out what her true intentions are if both you are indeed going to spend eternity together. You two have some significant differences and I believe you both can overcome if the effort is there. I think the quality time mentioned before will be key in rekindling the old flame.

A lot of work will be required to rebuild the foundation here, I hope that it's worth it. Just know when to cut your losses.


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## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

Elizindrhythm said:


> 1) if she is in pain, trust me, sex is SO the last thing on her mind. What has happened from the pregnancies? Has she seen a doctor about the pain? Is she in chronic pain? Is she on any medicine? This can all biologically impact her sex drive and her ability to orgasm. And let me tell you, if you can't orgasm, you don't want anything.


Well, the pregnancy only affected her hips. The things that hold her hips in (ligaments?) have been over-stretched and so they pop in and out sometimes. It is a form of chronic pain. The physical therapist said they could shorten the ligaments, have a hip replacement, or do certain exercises multiple times a day. The first 2 they wouldn't even consider for someone her age and she hates doing the exercises and so never does them, even though they helped and she was even pain-free for a while when she was first doing them. She takes Acetaminophen or sometimes Vicodin if the pain gets bad. This has not affected her ability to orgasm.



amanda32 said:


> Perhaps if you want her to fulfill your needs you might want to also try harder to fulfill hers? (examples)


Those sound like good things to do. I've been trying to be more of that mind lately. We'll see how it goes.



MelissaC said:


> Okay, this is getting ridiculous. Granted I'm a bit biased in your favor in this, but really...how many ways do you have to bend over backward for a woman who apparently is willing to put in only minimal effort in return? You're not her slave boy. You have needs too. Stop being a spineless doormat, obviously it's not working for either of you. I apologize for the harsh wording but I mean, for fucksake.


Are you saying that I'm being a spineless doormat or that following amanda32's suggestions would be? I'm not a doormat right now, but I'm not going to force myself on her. When I try to talk to her about these things, she just becomes quiet and further talking gets her emotional. In her own words and from my experience, she can't take any kind of criticism well at all and she hates any kind of conflicts or confrontations. The therapist explained it as her being a "cave-dweller" and I'm the saber-toothed tiger that attacks her whenever she comes out of the cave. At least that's how it feels to her. The way it feels to me, the more I press, the more she crouches in the corner and covers her head. To me, the "pressing" is just the natural way I try to resolve conflicts or clear up misunderstandings, but I'm trying to find different ways of going about it and I don't think it is spineless to do so.



amanda32 said:


> Perhaps this is judgemental of me, but I get the impression from what he writes that he is painting himself in a holy light -- even when he conceeds something might be his fault -- and that makes me want to hear her side very much.


I suppose the therapist is right that no one can be unbiased when talking about themselves. It would be obviously impossible to depict every single thing that she and I do, so one must pick and choose and perhaps I focused on her negative aspects and my positive ones to paint an inaccurate picture. I don't try to do that and I certainly don't see myself as having no faults, but I naturally agree more with my view of things, having the most experience with it, and it is admittedly hard for me to understand where she is coming from, especially when she is so reluctant to speak her side other than defensive insults. I would like to hear her side as well and am hoping going to counselling will reveal that more, but I think it is especially unlikely that someone on a forum such as you will ever hear from her since she finds not only conversing with strangers on a forum a waste of time, but also the concept of personality types in any form.



pinkrasputin said:


> Regardless, the facts are- she is withholding sex and he is expected to validate her feelings.
> 
> Seems like a shitty, almost castrating way to prove your point in a marriage.


I don't really believe she is purposely doing it to prove a point. I think it takes a huge effort on her part right now to go through with sex and the idea of it, especially when she isn't feeling loved by me. Whenever the subject comes up, she becomes very humble like everything is her fault and she's letting me down, but also hopeless like she can't do anything about it. I get the same impression as if a kid was being scolded for being clumsy.


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## Vivid Melody (Apr 25, 2011)

I think once she learns how to love/forgive herself - accept herself for who she is - seeing the beauty within herself - she will most likely be interested in sex. So I don't think it's the fact that you don't love her enough. Seemed also like she is dissatisfied with the fact that you don't display much vulnerability in the realm of emotions? You can correct me if I am wrong. She sounds very expressive with her emotions and faults (even if she doesn't explain them). Did you or someone else say it seems to her that it is easy for you? perhaps she is envious of you so she doesn't feel like she deserves you because you seem to have it all together most of the time? Not saying there's anything wrong with the way you express yourself - just trying to understand the situation better.

Just sounds like she really can't forgive herself - feels like she took advantage of you and now she will never believe that you actually really want her - perhaps. So maybe she feels like she is stealing from you whenever you have sex with her and not the other way around. Just some thoughts. They may be off.


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## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

Vivid Melody said:


> Seemed also like she is dissatisfied with the fact that you don't display much vulnerability in the realm of emotions? You can correct me if I am wrong. She sounds very expressive with her emotions and faults (even if she doesn't explain them).


Yes, this has cropped up before. She dislikes how her emotions well up so easily and quickly and overwhelm everything else and how I seem to have them under control so easily. She said since meeting me she has changed a lot and shown her emotions less because it appears weak to her compared to me and fears that I would consider it weak as well. She has been trying to be more like me and as a side effect, made it much harder for me to read her and respond appropriately.



> Did you or someone else say it seems to her that it is easy for you? perhaps she is envious of you so she doesn't feel like she deserves you because you seem to have it all together most of the time? Not saying there's anything wrong with the way you express yourself - just trying to understand the situation better.


I've said that she and my ex-girlfriend have said that before. They hated how I could so easily describe my thoughts and feelings on things and they can't, especially when I'm questioning them and trying to find out what's wrong.



> feels like she took advantage of you and now she will never believe that you actually really want her - perhaps. So maybe she feels like she is stealing from you whenever you have sex with her and not the other way around. Just some thoughts. They may be off.


Hmm, not really sure I understand this. How could she be stealing from me when I want it?


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## Vivid Melody (Apr 25, 2011)

Elaminopy said:


> Yes, this has cropped up before. She dislikes how her emotions well up so easily and quickly and overwhelm everything else and how I seem to have them under control so easily. She said since meeting me she has changed a lot and shown her emotions less because it appears weak to her compared to me and fears that I would consider it weak as well. She has been trying to be more like me and as a side effect, made it much harder for me to read her and respond appropriately.


Well I assume you don't see it as a sign of weakness but just in case that is not the case I will ask you, do you honestly see it as a sign of weakness? If not, have you made it clear to her that you do not only see it as a sign of weakness but you appreciate it when she makes herself vulnerable to you (big emotional shows)? Whether they be manipulative or not she needs to see the beauty in being emotionally open in front of you. You express vulnerability in different ways I would imagine? That is something she is going to have to learn to accept as well as her own expressions of emotional vulnerability. 

You are good for her because you bring something different to the table - a cool head in times of trouble. She is good for you because she also offers something new to the table - intense emotional expression - which can easily be turned into compassion. I imagine you consider yourself more intense in the way that you express thought? Is that what you meant when you said you were intense?




Elaminopy said:


> Hmm, not really sure I understand this. How could she be stealing from me when I want it?


While it is quite clear that you desire sex, it is not clear to her that you desire HER. She knows you want it - does not believe you want the person attached to it - her. She probably holds herself accountable for past faults in her previous marriage as well but doesn't know how to let that go either because that marriage is over. She held the truth from you at the beginning of your relationship (that she was already married). She did take advantage of you and she knows that. She's having a hard time accepting that's the case I think. When she starts feeling better about herself she'll probably also naturally want to take care of her physical problems again. Just right now, all this counseling has opened up all these wounds that's she held onto for so long and she can't decide whether to forgive herself and move on or to wallow in self pity. Just a guess.


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## goodgracesbadinfluence (Feb 28, 2011)

Shinji Mimura said:


> But men don't need sex more than women. There is no biological evidence that supports this idea.
> 
> If you really want to try and argue for one sex over the other, I advise you look more into psychology, wherein you'll find the "need" factor lies more heavily in the female area, whereas the "want" factor, more than likely, in the male area.


Need wasn't the best choice of words. I was just too lazy to think of a better one, which is why it was in quotes.


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## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

Vivid Melody said:


> Well I assume you don't see it as a sign of weakness but just in case that is not the case I will ask you, do you honestly see it as a sign of weakness?


I know I'm probably off-base with this, but this is how emotions have always been to me. I view them as reactions to things, byproducts, mind you. Side effects. Like you're doing some fine, detailed work that needs your whole concentration like trying to thread a thread through a needle and your long hair keeps falling in your face and getting in the way. You need to tie your hair back to keep it out of your face. Your hair is emotions for me. Only I don't have long hair, so I normally don't experience that, but once in a while someone puts a wig on me out of the blue while I'm doing something, so I totally don't expect it and don't know what it is at first.

That's how _my_ emotions are to _me_. There is no association of my emotions with weakness because I usually don't think about them, just as I don't think about having long hair much. As far as my view of others' emotions, I suppose it would be like this. You witness someone slip and fall in the middle of the floor, yet you don't see anything that caused it. Then you see them drop a cup because it just slipped out of their hands. You start to notice a pattern of this slipping and dropping for no apparent reason and you start to wonder what is wrong with them. You walk where they walked and do the same things they do and don't have any difficulty at all and they see you and talk as if you have unnatural grace and finesse. You wouldn't think of yourself as exceptionally balanced, but them as clumsy. You can see how they might think that you think of them as weak. You finally see their hands and feet and notice they are completely smooth and perpetually moist. No wonder, but how did they get like this? As you get to know more people, you realize that this is actually commonplace and you are viewed as weird. Then you see them having fun by sliding down hills and they can slide around any surface on their hands or feet and they are having a blast and you sort of wish you could do that, but wouldn't want to give up the ability to walk without slipping and carry things without worrying about dropping them.



> If not, have you made it clear to her that you do not only see it as a sign of weakness but you appreciate it when she makes herself vulnerable to you (big emotional shows)? Whether they be manipulative or not she needs to see the beauty in being emotionally open in front of you.


I've tried to tell her with my words, but I suspect my involuntary reactions and tone of voice and everything else she reads in me she has experienced throughout our relationship has told her otherwise. The person in the above example would probably feel pretty dumb and clumsy always slipping and falling when you don't. And even though you help them up, they still see the frown of confusion on your face as they fall. I honestly don't think I'm good at handling big emotional shows. I think I just sit there and stare like a deer in headlights. My mind goes blank. I can only say something insignificant and then worry that I'm greatly letting the person down, like they just typed as much as I have in this thread and I'm only responding with one sentence. I've learned more that she just needs support and validating, possibly not even words. Just holding and small replies of confirmation. If I can remember that, it feels like a burden off my shoulders.



> You express vulnerability in different ways I would imagine? That is something she is going to have to learn to accept as well as her own expressions of emotional vulnerability.


I try to be honest and explain how I feel to her. I'm not sure if that's vulnerable or not. I think it's something that would probably appear vulnerable to others because it would make them vulnerable, but I don't feel vulnerable when I do it. Like everything I've said about myself, especially about when I met her, I actually feed off the idea that people will see me doing something that would take great courage for them to do and so probably apply those attributes to me. I'm still not sure how to be vulnerable to her. I don't know what would make me feel vulnerable. I suppose the only thing I worry about is how she will react to knowing some of my thoughts, like she would be disgusted with me and it would disturb her. I don't see any benefit in that.



> You are good for her because you bring something different to the table - a cool head in times of trouble. She is good for you because she also offers something new to the table - intense emotional expression - which can easily be turned into compassion.


This is something I frequently remind myself of after conflicts.



> I imagine you consider yourself more intense in the way that you express thought? Is that what you meant when you said you were intense?


Yes, more intense in the way I express them, the amount of words I say, my persistence in pursuing something, and my often pointed-out ability to "beat a dead horse".



> While it is quite clear that you desire sex, it is not clear to her that you desire HER. She knows you want it - does not believe you want the person attached to it - her.


Ah, I see. That makes sense. She's alluded to that before. She says I don't want her, I just want a girlfriend or wife, but would't care who it was.



> Just right now, all this counseling has opened up all these wounds that's she held onto for so long and she can't decide whether to forgive herself and move on or to wallow in self pity.


Heh, that's what the therapist said. That her wounds have always been there and they scabbed over but were all infected and stuff. We first had to rip the scabs off and clean it so it can heal, but even once it heals correctly, it will always be an ugly scar.


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## amanda32 (Jul 23, 2009)

pinkrasputin said:


> Regardless, the facts are- she is withholding sex and he is expected to validate her feelings.
> 
> Seems like a shitty, almost castrating way to prove your point in a marriage.


I agree witholding sex is shitty and should never be done. It's not something I would ever do for instance but I do know that some women do it.

However, he did say he started helping her more when she did -- which tells me two things: 

1. He's selfish: because he only started helping her as a way to get something he wanted -- not because he genuinely felt bad that she was tired and in pain. Would you want to sleep with someone who you knew didn't care how you felt except when it affected them?

2. It works: however wrong it might be, it works. Spanking your child isn't the best way to motivate the child to do what is right or keep them from doing what is wrong most of the time but it works and parents do it for that reason. It's a quick and easy solution. 

I personally think, that in the long-run it does more harm than good and is the wrong "solution" but maybe that's the only "power" or "motivating force" she thinks she has.

Also, he wrote that his wife complains that he doesn't spend time with her and that he only married her because she was pregnant. He wrote that he dated her in the first place because he was "lonely" and "wanted sex" and that "beggers can't be choosers". She probably feels that this isn't the love she hoped to find. Granted, he also said he has come to love her and the children very much but I wonder if it's the kind of love that makes a wife feel like a woman.

In the relationships I've seen come and go, the absense of sex is an indicator of what is going on outside the bedroom--emotionally between the two. As one (because in 2 instances I know of it was the man who stopped wanting sex) becomes emotionally distant they become uninterested in sex.

The sex isn't the problem, it's the symptom of the problem and maybe it's the only one he's heard so far. 

I wonder how many times she asked to spend time with him before and he kept blowing her off. I wonder how many times she told him she wanted to get away for the weekend and he ignored it. How many times she asked him to do something for him and he didn't do it before she began to withdraw.

And once she saw that witholding sex 'worked' how resentful she may have become -- to imagine that that was the only thing he responded to.


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## Vivid Melody (Apr 25, 2011)

@Elaminopy

Can't be off base when this is your own personal view point. Emotions do not have a base when they are not grounded in reason and yes, the two can fit together. Sometimes you just need to set your emotions free like birds and observe where they go in order to understand them. I found your analogies to be very beautiful.

Well that is the beauty of emotions - they are unexpected - they surprise you - either in a good way or a bad way depending on the type of attitude you attach to the emotion you are perceiving.

This is also a very good analogy. I like it a lot. Yes (just to add to the analogy) - I think true grace and finesse would come when you are so in tune with the person, you can tell when the person is about to fall and so you catch them right before they start to fall. It's like a dance, like music - love is. The black keys are the reasons or the sharp questions and the white keys are the innocent questions or answers. They sound best together - when they understand how they fit together and it turns into a song - where the two meet and become one. 

She has already developed some of your traits within herself because she admires you. This is what naturally happens when a couple loves each other - they naturally start picking up each other's traits. On a grander scale - you can do this with anyone you love but a marriage is meant to be the most intimate of relationships - so this is where the two should really become one in every sense. This is only disrupted when there is a lack of understanding or just out right refusal to understand. But I would say you both wish to understand the other so it's not refusal.

I will give you another analogy. She is the flower, you are the vase but you both desire to switch roles sometimes which should take place. She wants to comfort you mentally and emotionally but it's hard when you don't reveal any hidden pain. Vulnerability just means that you open yourself up to the other person - you give them the chance to cause you pain (this can be done in various ways). It comes with the territory of loving someone and allowing yourself to be loved.

Well one way to be vulnerable in front of someone is admitting when you are wrong or unsure. You could say - I don't know how to feel right now. I feel really inadequate because you just expressed all of these intense emotions to me that I don't understand yet. Could you help me understand? I want to understand what it's like to be you so I can know you better. Something like that...or you can choose to withdraw if it's too overwhelming for you at the moment and return to it later when you've made sense of it but don't forget to empathize while you are away and when you return. Stay connected to the emotions. When you understand, the ones that don't belong - confusion - the feeling of being overwhelmed (the heaviness) will dissolve.

Well it's hard to confirm/validate something (if not impossible) that you do not understand or know. You have no idea what it is you are confirming/validating though I think holding her and small replies are a good start. You can learn how to do this on a much deeper level if you want. The way I see it - the pleasure that comes from understanding your own pain and/or the pain of others is the equivalent of an orgasm. An orgasm is a representation of something much deeper. It's what makes you feel alive. It's like feeling the crisp cold on your warm skin or taking in a soothing warmth (you don't want to become numb so you go inside if you get too cold or cool off when the heat becomes to oppressive . It's like feeling that on your external skin but it's been transferred to the skin of your heart and your mind - your soul if you believe in such a thing. Doesn't really matter. All the same thing. 

I will give you another example. Remember when you were a kid and you hit that cat on the head repeatedly to the point where you killed it? In your attempt to understand/experience something, you killed it. You killed this beautiful and innocent creature. That is heartbreaking for both the cat and for you. 

When I see someone splattering their emotions all over the place or even myself (misplaced emotions) I see a bird flying into a mirror over and over and over again to the point where it kills itself. Something so beautiful (meant to fly - dance) - banging it's head against it's own reflection because it doesn't understand reality, doesn't recognize it's own reflection.

Well as I already said, she's tried to apply your attributes to herself because she just thinks that much of you. There is a time for everything though - a time to be courageous, a time to break down and a time to be at ease. All three of these are necessary if you want to truly feel alive and have your relationships thrive.

What about your thoughts exactly do you think she would find disgusting or disturbing(without going into specific personal detail if you are uncomfortable with doing so here)?

Well that's good that you consider how it might make her feel. I don't think it's wise to share EVERY waking thought you have with someone because a lot of them you will learn in time are simply illusions of your own making. You could really hurt someone. You just have to make sure your heart is in the right place before sharing your thoughts with someone (which you already naturally do). And humility is the right place to be. Sometimes this requires you to examine why you think something (refining your thoughts) because maybe you don't know yet. If you meant it for their own good (or the good for you both) then that would be something that is worth sharing. You could ask her first if she's interested in hearing about some of your less expressed thoughts before you dive right into them so as not to overwhelm her. You can give her an idea of what they are about before fully sharing to determine whether this would make her uncomfortable or not. That way she feels like she has a choice in the matter - you show her that you take her own thoughts and feelings into account. You feel the emotional waters.

*This is something I frequently remind myself of after conflicts.*
Good 

Well we all beat a dead horse sometimes when we don't understand something whether that be with our emotions or our questions. It's all the same I suppose. So you both do it in different ways.

*Ah, I see. That makes sense. She's alluded to that before. She says I don't want her, I just want a girlfriend or wife, but would't care who it was.

*Would you say that is true or false (keeping in mind that whatever is true right now can always be changed in time)? You only have a problem when something is subconscious - unable to grasp at the moment.

*Heh, that's what the therapist said. That her wounds have always been there and they scabbed over but were all infected and stuff. We first had to rip the scabs off and clean it so it can heal, but even once it heals correctly, it will always be an ugly scar.*

Well I would say that depends on how you perceive a scar. Everyone has internal scars whether they care to admit it or not. Sometimes they are not aware of their scars. Scars can be perceived as beautiful when you understand that scars are there to remind you of something - the painful place you were in - how you climbed out of that - where you are now - healed and now you have the power to help heal other people's wounds. Maybe some of your own wounds need opening.

People keep bringing up the fact that you are selfish or she is selfish and all this. The fact is, you were both selfish at the beginning of your relationship. You both used each other in different ways. She says "you are cute" I will have sex with him all I want and everything will be rainbows and butterflies lalalala I won't think about my husband who I am hurting - probably doing this to hurt him and I won't think about how I am using this person I am sleeping with to some degree too because this makes me feel good. I will think about that later. And maybe you were too weary to really feel or give so you just let it happen to you without a question. But I would say that doesn't matter now because that's not where you two are now - though understanding that certainly helps. You two are attemping to reach a much higher place now. And while that is the basis of your relationship, as you said -relationships always have room to grow into love. This is true if you are both willing (which you both are). You just have to get to know the one you are with on a more intimate level first.


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## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

amanda32 said:


> I agree witholding sex is shitty and should never be done. It's not something I would ever do for instance but I do know that some women do it.
> 
> However, he did say he started helping her more when she did -- which tells me two things:
> 
> 1. He's selfish: because he only started helping her as a way to get something he wanted -- not because he genuinely felt bad that she was tired and in pain. Would you want to sleep with someone who you knew didn't care how you felt except when it affected them?


If this was how it sounded, I didn't make it clear. The relationship started with plenty of it, slowing down a little but still frequent enough for me toward the middle, until our son was born and a little after that is when it almost ground to a halt. I was more verbal about it then and she was defensive, saying that I sound like her ex. As time went on, it became even less frequent and we both seemed unhappy and we got into arguments frequently. Tired of the arguments, which she always claimed I liked, I would ask advice and got lots of people saying to seek counselling. Finally, after more arguments and me without a clue about how they even started and much less how to stop them, and not getting much from my wife since she claimed there was no point in telling me because I wouldn't get it, I sought counselling. She was reluctant at first, saying that a divorce is cheaper. In counselling I learned that her frequent pain means her tolerance of everything is greatly lessened and that I should start asking her what her pain number is each day. If it was higher than 5 (she said it normally stays at a 4), it was time for me to take over.

I had always viewed helping around the house as doing favors for her. That's how my dad was and my house growing up was one of the happiest I've ever seen. My wife's 2 friends told her how lucky she was that I was so willing to help as much as I do, and this was before I started helping out more like I am now. Well, the therapist said to view it more as something that we are both equally responsible for, and therefore it isn't doing her a favor, but doing my equal share. Once I started viewing it that way, I automatically started just doing things that I saw needed to be done. Shortly after this change, the therapist asked my wife what her happiness in the marriage was, not specifically related to my helping out, just overall, and she said a 9 out of 10. When asked what her happiness was a couple weeks ago, she said about a 4.

This was done without any thoughts of me getting anything in return besides my wife being happier. I feel negative when she feels negative and she seems that way more often than not. I love it the few times she is silly. It happens so rarely and she usually apologizes for being silly and I always tell her not to be sorry, I love it when she is because it means she's in a good mood and I wish I saw it more from her. But I started doing it to because I hadn't considered it and it sounded like a good idea. And I found I liked doing it, looking forward to her seeing it and smiling, actually giving a tired "aww" and thanking me usually. *But afterward, looking back*, I noticed that while she seemed happier and I was doing a lot more, it didn't have any effect on her willingness to have sex. She seemed to feel bad about it, though. I never pushed. I usually wouldn't even verbally ask except for during the day, something like, "So we can do this, then this, then make love, then this..." in a kind of joking way and she would agree that it sounds good. I wouldn't seriously be expecting it. The way it would usually go was we'd be in bed rubbing each others' backs and cuddling, I'd massage parts that hurt she would seem to be happy and content and feeling romantic toward me. Just when I was starting to think that sex might be an option and beginning to test to see how she would respond to things, and sometimes she'd seem to respond well, she would say that she was getting sleepy and tell me "goodnight" and turn over. I would just halt for a moment in disbelief, then turn onto my back and stare at the ceiling. She would sometimes ask me if I was mad. It's always "are you mad?" I'd say I wasn't mad, just frustrated. She would say she was sorry. Depending on if I tried to express my feelings or not, we either would or wouldn't get into an argument. The last time it happened she slept on the couch.

It was after realizing this that it seemed like I was making all the effort to make her happier but she must not have been realizing that I was also feeling without, so I wrote the OP poem. Still not wanting to push her, still not wanting her to feel bad, I wrote it with the intent of helping her to see how sex was to me. My helping around the house has not diminished and I still don't do it to get something in return. I do it to give her more free time and to have less stress and be able to rest and be happier, which I'm hoping will ultimately help her to be in a good mood more often and we'll have arguments less and less and as a natural result of all that, I'll also get more sex. But at the same time, despite doing more, I'm still aware that I'm doing most of the extra effort. Perhaps I'm just finally evening the score and catching up to her.

@Vivid Melody
Lots of good reading. Thanks for all that. The whole emotional/reason dance thing sounds intimidating and unobtainable, honestly. Right now at least.



Vivid Melody said:


> I will give you another example. Remember when you were a kid and you hit that cat on the head repeatedly to the point where you killed it? In your attempt to understand/experience something, you killed it. You killed this beautiful and innocent creature. That is heartbreaking for both the cat and for you.


Who are you? Who do you work for!?

So you found that, eh. I don't remember where I posted that. Yeah, I still somewhat have those urges, but they take the form of playfully teasing the kids now. My son's afraid of the vacuum and consequently my wife never has to ask me twice to do it. But I make sure to spend time with him and show him I love him afterward.



> What about your thoughts exactly do you think she would find disgusting or disturbing(without going into specific personal detail if you are uncomfortable with doing so here)?


Well, just random thoughts that come into my head. I'll see an old person wearing sandles with very sensitive-looking feet, like blue or red colored, and immediately imagine stomping on them cutting off the toes and imagining the blood oozing out and wondering how it would look. Then imagining their reaction and what they would think about me, especially if they are someone I've only been nice to before and who probably views me in very high regard. What shock of betrayal would they feel? That's just an example. Even much more mild musings make her frown and she doesn't want to hear any more, like "that guy's TV must have cost an arm and a leg, or at least a leg". She looks over and sees a guy in a wheelchair with one leg. My favorite comedy websites contain lots of dry and dark humor and lots of picking things apart like holes in movie plots or making fun of things. She hates it, especially when it is about something she likes, like a movie. It doesn't matter that I like it just as much as she does, she doesn't understand how I can like making fun of it. It just ruins it for her.



> *Ah, I see. That makes sense. She's alluded to that before. She says I don't want her, I just want a girlfriend or wife, but would't care who it was.
> 
> *Would you say that is true or false (keeping in mind that whatever is true right now can always be changed in time)? You only have a problem when something is subconscious - unable to grasp at the moment.


I think I would be happy with anyone I was attracted to and who was attracted to me and provided what I wanted. She's not the only person who could fit that role, especially with how many times we clash. Most women would be capable of fitting that. But she's the only one I'm focusing on right now and that will remain true until death or something else separates us. If she can be happy with me, I'm sure she could be at least as happy with many other guys. It's not even an issue with me. I just automatically assume that any person I'm with could be just as happy or more with other people. But what matters is that they picked me and are happy staying with that choice. I think the person would have to have a very unhealthy disorder to _only_ be able to be happy with me. I picked my wife and I'm staying with her. I want a wife and I'm happy with her being it.


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## amanda32 (Jul 23, 2009)

@Elaminopy

If she's 9/10 happy with her marriage then I've no idea why she doesn't want to have sex with you. The only other thing I can think of is that she is on some pain medications or anti-depressants that have killed her sex drive.


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## 626Stitch (Oct 22, 2010)

> If she's 9/10 happy with her marriage then I've no idea why she doesn't want to have sex with you. The only other thing I can think of is that she is on some pain medications or anti-depressants that have killed her sex drive.


Maybe she just has a low drive. people seem so judgmental of naturel human variation. I would like people to understand me that I have a fairly high drive so I try and understand that not everyone is the same way.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

626Stitch said:


> Maybe she just has a low drive. people seem so judgmental of naturel human variation. I would like people to understand me that I have a fairly high drive so I try and understand that not everyone is the same way.


But if drives are so highly disproportionate between two people, then a relationship is going to be problematic, as we're seeing here.


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## Vivid Melody (Apr 25, 2011)

^Just to add to that, sex drive can easily change over time (either a little or a lot) depending on one's age and many many many other factors. People are complex.



Elaminopy said:


> The whole emotional/reason dance thing sounds intimidating and unobtainable, honestly. Right now at least.


Well that's understandable and to be expected. You must learn to walk before you can run and you must learn the moves before you can dance.




Elaminopy said:


> Who are you? Who do you work for!?
> 
> So you found that, eh. I don't remember where I posted that. Yeah, I still somewhat have those urges, but they take the form of playfully teasing the kids now. My son's afraid of the vacuum and consequently my wife never has to ask me twice to do it. But I make sure to spend time with him and show him I love him afterward.


This is God speaking  Honestly, what kind of person do you take me for?  I don't have to go scrounging about for information  You told me about it a while ago in another thread (gently mistyped revelation thread or whatever - I don't visit there any more). I just have a good memory when it comes to details about people I guess. Probably because I care about people and that particular image stuck with me as well because it was just so devastating. And now that you mention it, that vaccumn story sounds familiar too. That's really cute. I understand the desire to see your wife silly like a little kid. Yes, it is sad that she won't let go of control long enough most of the time to just let her inner kid out. I believe everyone should hold onto their inner child (innocence)



Elaminopy said:


> Well, just random thoughts that come into my head. I'll see an old person wearing sandles with very sensitive-looking feet, like blue or red colored, and immediately imagine stomping on them cutting off the toes and imagining the blood oozing out and wondering how it would look. Then imagining their reaction and what they would think about me, especially if they are someone I've only been nice to before and who probably views me in very high regard. What shock of betrayal would they feel? That's just an example. Even much more mild musings make her frown and she doesn't want to hear any more, like "that guy's TV must have cost an arm and a leg, or at least a leg". She looks over and sees a guy in a wheelchair with one leg. My favorite comedy websites contain lots of dry and dark humor and lots of picking things apart like holes in movie plots or making fun of things. She hates it, especially when it is about something she likes, like a movie. It doesn't matter that I like it just as much as she does, she doesn't understand how I can like making fun of it. It just ruins it for her.


Now I remember you saying this too. Well have you ever come up with why you like to entertain such thoughts?




Elaminopy said:


> I think I would be happy with anyone I was attracted to and who was attracted to me and provided what I wanted. She's not the only person who could fit that role, especially with how many times we clash. Most women would be capable of fitting that. But she's the only one I'm focusing on right now and that will remain true until death or something else separates us. If she can be happy with me, I'm sure she could be at least as happy with many other guys. It's not even an issue with me. I just automatically assume that any person I'm with could be just as happy or more with other people. But what matters is that they picked me and are happy staying with that choice. I think the person would have to have a very unhealthy disorder to _only_ be able to be happy with me. I picked my wife and I'm staying with her. I want a wife and I'm happy with her being it.


Right. Regardless of who could have fit the role it's irrelevant now because now she is the one you have chosen. Just explaining that to someone can sound a bit...callous - like you don't think they are special. Everyone wants to feel special. But anyway, not really a criticism. Just an observation.

Maybe the massages relax her to sleep more than excite her - which isn't bad - you relieved her pain. Try to be patient in the area of sex (especially through all this counseling). She probably feels spent most of the time from all the energy she is expending from thinking and feeling. All that intensity is focused on expressing, understanding herself -frustration that it's probably hard for her to build up the momentum that is required for sex (at least right now). I understand the urge, the desire for it and I don't think you did anything wrong by the things you did or said - just trying to lessen your torment here (and in turn, lessen hers). You are in control of your every emotion, every urge - they are not in control of you - or at least it does not have to be that way (otherwise we'd all go around humping each other - which I guess some people do). But I guess some people might see that as radical.

As I already said, the pleasure found from giving can equal to the pleasure you get from receiving. Do you enjoy giving her massages? And if so, why? You can get to the point where you enjoy giving in and of itself. And while it is always nice to receive it's like giving any gift. Do you like giving your son gifts for his birthday? If so, why? Does the smile on his face not tickle you inside? A wife is a blessing and a gift to be opened, understood and cherished just as much as a husband is. We are like plants. We water and feed ourselves and each other when needed and there is joy to be found in all of it if and when you choose to see it. There is no pressure where joy is concerned. Just another analogy for you there.


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## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

Vivid Melody said:


> Now I remember you saying this too. Well have you ever come up with why you like to entertain such thoughts?


Nah, but I don't mind it. It doesn't bug me. I just know it would probably bug others to know.



> As I already said, the pleasure found from giving can equal to the pleasure you get from receiving. Do you enjoy giving her massages? And if so, why? You can get to the point where you enjoy giving in and of itself. And while it is always nice to receive it's like giving any gift. Do you like giving your son gifts for his birthday? If so, why? Does the smile on his face not tickle you inside?


I don't particularly enjoy giving her massages, no. Although I happily do it and have joy in my voice. I like knowing I'm doing something to make her feel better, but I wish I could fast-forward to when it was done. I would rather do dishes, but of course I would pick massage if she gave me a choice. I think physical touch is lower on the love language list for me, except when sexually motivated, it drives it straight to the top. When I'm turned on, massaging her sounds great because I get to touch her. It makes me put all my focus on her and happy to do anything she asks, not so she'll give me something in return, just that it makes me enjoy doing things for her. When sex doesn't result, though, the motivation goes away and so does any joy. I still do what she asks and never turn her down, but it only benefits her at that point. If I felt there was a good chance of having sex, or if she seemed turned on ever or even sexually attracted to me at any time during the day, I would enjoy spending time with her and doing things with her massively more. It would be like we were dating.

Before she moved in, we would call each other after work. Whenever she was going to come over, I couldn't do anything but stand in the back room by the window and watch down where the road was to see would be coming from. Nothing else mattered. I still do that once in a while when I'm home and she's gone and I know she'll be coming home soon. And then I happily greet her at the door. Unfortunately, most of the time I'm greeted with her sort of irritated that I'm in her way and she's yelling at the kids to do what she asked them to do and asking me to help get stuff out of the car in a frustrated voice. I understand that she is coming from a completely different situation than I am at that point, but at those times I wish it would be like when she would visit and be just as happy to see me.

And lastly, she had a doctor's appointment today. He said he completely agrees with her seeing the therapist that will determine her need for depression medication. He noticed that she even seemed stressed there in the room. But apparently it is less depression and more high anxiety. Also, she tested her blood sugar level this morning for the first time in a long time, despite her doctor saying she needs to do it regularly. She hates doing it because it hurts. She says it sucks having to poke her finger. Well, her blood sugar was around 170 this morning even without having any breakfast and it is supposed to be below 80. He is going to be increasing her diabetes medication dosage. He also said she needs to lose 50 lbs. If she did that, her feet pain would go away, her legs wouldn't hurt, her hips wouldn't hurt, her back wouldn't hurt, her diabetes wouldn't be nearly as hard to control, it would fix all kinds of things.


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## Vivid Melody (Apr 25, 2011)

Elaminopy said:


> Nah, but I don't mind it. It doesn't bug me. I just know it would probably bug others to know.


That makes sense. Well I think if you ever did want to know the reason - you are perfectly capable of figuring it out. I guess I am just being a stereotypical INFJ though with asking "why?" to everything.



Elaminopy said:


> I don't particularly enjoy giving her massages, no. Although I happily do it and have joy in my voice. I like knowing I'm doing something to make her feel better, but I wish I could fast-forward to when it was done. I would rather do dishes, but of course I would pick massage if she gave me a choice. I think physical touch is lower on the love language list for me, except when sexually motivated, it drives it straight to the top. When I'm turned on, massaging her sounds great because I get to touch her. It makes me put all my focus on her and happy to do anything she asks, not so she'll give me something in return, just that it makes me enjoy doing things for her. When sex doesn't result, though, the motivation goes away and so does any joy. I still do what she asks and never turn her down, but it only benefits her at that point. If I felt there was a good chance of having sex, or if she seemed turned on ever or even sexually attracted to me at any time during the day, I would enjoy spending time with her and doing things with her massively more. It would be like we were dating.
> 
> Before she moved in, we would call each other after work. Whenever she was going to come over, I couldn't do anything but stand in the back room by the window and watch down where the road was to see would be coming from. Nothing else mattered. I still do that once in a while when I'm home and she's gone and I know she'll be coming home soon. And then I happily greet her at the door. Unfortunately, most of the time I'm greeted with her sort of irritated that I'm in her way and she's yelling at the kids to do what she asked them to do and asking me to help get stuff out of the car in a frustrated voice. I understand that she is coming from a completely different situation than I am at that point, but at those times I wish it would be like when she would visit and be just as happy to see me.
> 
> And lastly, she had a doctor's appointment today. He said he completely agrees with her seeing the therapist that will determine her need for depression medication. He noticed that she even seemed stressed there in the room. But apparently it is less depression and more high anxiety. Also, she tested her blood sugar level this morning for the first time in a long time, despite her doctor saying she needs to do it regularly. She hates doing it because it hurts. She says it sucks having to poke her finger. Well, her blood sugar was around 170 this morning even without having any breakfast and it is supposed to be below 80. He is going to be increasing her diabetes medication dosage. He also said she needs to lose 50 lbs. If she did that, her feet pain would go away, her legs wouldn't hurt, her hips wouldn't hurt, her back wouldn't hurt, her diabetes wouldn't be nearly as hard to control, it would fix all kinds of things.


Poor thing. She (your wife) needs to start taking care of herself or nobody else will. Hopefully the meds will give her some sort of relief. 

Well that makes sense. So I guess maybe acts of service tops the charts for you? Hmm or perhaps quality time.

Reading that whole middle part made me very sad. I hope things get better for you two.


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## amanda32 (Jul 23, 2009)

@Elaminopy OMG, don't let her go on meds. Or at least, if you do be informed of the dangers:

SSRI Stories

2 university studies have shown that exercise is more helpful in curbing depression than medication -- without any negative side effects like the horror list you'll find with anti-depressants.


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

Kyandigaru said:


> Im with the few women on here and will say that, withholding sex is a weird idea. To me personally, its a form of control.


Oh definitely. It's very very common to hear in marriage counseling with struggling marriages that the woman has been exerting that kind of control over the man -- it's one of the few things that typically gets his attention, that she can easily leverage to get what she wants.

Of course, it's pretty destructive for the marriage (along with a bunch of other games that people play).



amanda32 said:


> Perhaps this is judgemental of me, but I get the impression from what he writes that he is painting himself in a holy light -- even when he conceeds something might be his fault -- and that makes me want to hear her side very much.


I don't know if I have time to read everything in this thread, it's pretty extensive and I just found it a few minutes ago, but yeah... that's just something that readers have to assume and parse. Especially with someone who is a decent writer and sounds balanced and reasonable.... it doesn't mean their private emotional life is balanced. 

I know I've been capable of sounding mentally reasonable and balanced (I know what I SHOULD be doing to make the relationship work, from a rational POV), while emotionally and relationally I was not nearly as up to snuff as my ideas and manner suggested. I was neglectful of my own spouse with the typical failings of being INTP, even when I did my best, when I was married, but I could still provide the kind of analysis I've seen by the OP in this thread. 

In any case, it's safe to assume there is his story, there is her story, and then there is the truth, even if both are doing their best to be kind and fair.


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## waterviolet (Apr 28, 2010)

Same side of the coin except I'm a woman. I agree it's very frustrating. Everything else is wonderful but when it comes to the physical side of things he just doesnt understand how important it is to me to still make that connection and to be found attractive in that way. I unfortunately don't have any answers for you. In any case, ignore the jokesters who tell you to get a divorce...in the end they will be the ones not having a partner they can talk to when sex is no longer something they are physically capable of.


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## kudi (Sep 27, 2011)

> I was neglectful of my own spouse with the typical failings of being INTP


What are the typical failings of INTP you talking about? I'm interested to know.


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## TWN (Feb 16, 2012)

Before you agree to a partnership make it known that you need sex, and if they dont participate you will go elsewhere or break up with/divorce them.

Im a big fan of poly relationships. If one of your partners is tired, go fuck another one.

I need sex just as much as men do, physically, but I would never back myself into a corner again by choosing to pick one sex partner, without a way out. 

I tried that once, and unfortunately or me the guy was horrible in bed. Ill never do that again. 

*You have needs and it is your job to provide this info before you make a commitment. 
*

And also, please dont imply that most sexual conflicts are due to women not wanting sex. 

*From a sexually active woman's point of view:
*
* Sometimes we dont want to have sex because you are bad in bed. Or you have a small penis and it doesnt hit our g-spot right. Or you roll over and go to sleep after your orgasm.*

There are many reasons, so please dont make that assumption, because it makes you look like an ass.

*So many men want the shy, reserved woman that doesn't like sex. Then get angry when she... DOESN'T want to have SEX.*

Dont blame her for your lack of sound judgment.


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## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

pinkrasputin said:


> What about just individual counseling for you and forego the couple's counseling? I really think that's healthier in your situation.


Yeah, I've been considering that. Not quite sure how to approach my wife with that, yet. "You need help!" And if we both need it, how would we work that into an every other week thing?


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

Elaminopy said:


> Yeah, I've been considering that. Not quite sure how to approach my wife with that, yet. "You need help!" And if we both need it, how would we work that into an every other week thing?


Stop worrying about her. Get individual counseling for yourself. Wasn't the couple's counseling your idea anyway? It shouldn't be too hard to shift the focus. Look, you can't make a person do _anything_ they don't want to do. You need to have some support on your side. Plus, your own therapist will give you tips on how to take care of your marriage. 

The effort in your marriage has gotten _very_ lopsided. This isn't good for anyone.


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## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

pinkrasputin said:


> Stop worrying about her. Get individual counseling for yourself. Wasn't the couple's counseling your idea anyway? It shouldn't be too hard to shift the focus. Look, you can't make a person do _anything_ they don't want to do. You need to have some support on your side. Plus, your own therapist will give you tips on how to take care of your marriage.
> 
> The effort in your marriage has gotten _very_ lopsided. This isn't good for anyone.


That's the other thing. Her insurance makes the counselling half as much as mine. And if she wants to, we wouldn't be able to afford us both doing it. But she won't want to without it being couples. At least this way we're both getting something and able to hear what the other has to say more. It's invaluable to me to hear her concerns and desires in a way I can understand and it's only happening so far in the couples counselling.


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

Elaminopy said:


> That's the other thing. Her insurance makes the counselling half as much as mine. And if she wants to, we wouldn't be able to afford us both doing it. But she won't want to without it being couples. At least this way we're both getting something and able to hear what the other has to say more. It's invaluable to me to hear her concerns and desires in a way I can understand and it's only happening so far in the couples counselling.


Well CODA meetings are free. You can look up your local chapter on the net for you.


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## Sapphyreopal5 (Jun 11, 2012)

Elaminopy said:


> Yeah, we're already having to cut back from once a week to once every other week due to finances. That's even with my wife's insurance cutting it down to $20 visits. We also need childcare for our son during it and the extra gas. I bring home about $1,300 twice a month. We don't qualify for food stamps. My insurance from work sucks. We get no financial help from our daughter's father. At least the state pays 100% of our kids' medical. That's what states should do. Federal shouldn't have any part of that.


I think that either doing what pink suggested or at least getting a different marriage counselor would help. To me, it sounds like the current marriage counselor is seeking only to "side" with her, which seems to be hurting more than it is helping. Getting her to go to an individual counselor I think would be very helpful but Idk if she actually wants to help _herself_. 

My parents paid about that much for every visit, which really does add up rather quickly. It definitely sounds like a good idea for you to cut down on your visits for those reasons. I can't imagine how much it would cost without your wife's insurance. I think it's a shame that the help people very much need from counselors gets so expensive to the point of it being not so affordable, especially for those who need it the most.


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

Sapphyreopal5 said:


> I think that either doing what pink suggested or at least getting a different marriage counselor would help. To me, it sounds like the current marriage counselor is seeking only to "side" with her, which seems to be hurting more than it is helping. Getting her to go to an individual counselor I think would be very helpful but Idk if she actually wants to help _herself_.
> 
> My parents paid about that much for every visit, which really does add up rather quickly. It definitely sounds like a good idea for you to cut down on your visits for those reasons. I can't imagine how much it would cost without your wife's insurance. I think it's a shame that the help people very much need from counselors gets so expensive to the point of it being not so affordable, especially for those who need it the most.


I'm surprised that @Elaminopy hasn't actually perused this thread: http://personalitycafe.com/sex-rela...es-councelling-who-has-tried.html#post3074904

One person can actually be mistreated in couple's counseling in certain circumstances. I would never do couple's counseling with someone who hasn't at least taking accountability in individual counseling, especially with his wife's level of unworked-on-baggage. Many problems, including power trips and manipulation could arise. I don't know how that is an even playing field in their couple's counseling. It's dangerous.


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## Intricate Mystic (Apr 3, 2010)

Elaminopy said:


> So far the therapist has said that 90% of women's low sex drives are based on not feeling loved or in a good relationship. So it's our relationship that is mostly to blame and so what we're already trying to work on will deal with that.


I agree with this. I had the same lack of motivation for sex and physical pain when I was married to an IxTP that you describe from your wife. He criticized me often, had to constantly prove how smart he was, and didn't listen to me or give me the attention I needed. I felt love-starved. My IxTP had the same complaints about me that you have. He thought I was the one with the problem. All I wanted was for him to _listen_ to whatever thoughts, wishes, fears, and concerns I had floating around my psyche on any given day. After our marriage was over, I met a man who gave me tons of emotional support and listened to me. I had _plenty_ of sex drive with him. We had sex every day when we were together. I got in another relationship in which the man was an STP, so not so good with feelings but he somehow _understood _that the key to a good sex life with me was to FIRST ask me about how I was doing and listen patiently to my response. He somehow _knew _I needed that to be able to relax and have sex. I had a great sex life with him, too. 

Do you ever take the time to ask your wife how she's doing and _let her speak for as long as she wants to_, from the heart, uncensored, without interruption, and no problem solving from you allowed?


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## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

Intricate Mystic said:


> Do you ever take the time to ask your wife how she's doing and _let her speak for as long as she wants to_, from the heart, uncensored, without interruption, and no problem solving from you allowed?


I do, but I fear I already ruined it in the past. Whether I did or didn't, she doesn't like talking about her thoughts or feelings because they cause anxiety for her. She's used to pushing thoughts out of her head that she doesn't like. She was also raised not to complain, and she thinks a lot of her thoughts and feelings fall into that category.


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## Intricate Mystic (Apr 3, 2010)

Elaminopy said:


> I do, but I fear I already ruined it in the past. Whether I did or didn't, she doesn't like talking about her thoughts or feelings because they cause anxiety for her. She's used to pushing thoughts out of her head that she doesn't like. She was also raised not to complain, and she thinks a lot of her thoughts and feelings fall into that category.


How did you ruin it in the past? So, she's bottling everything up inside. That's got to come out somewhere, even if it's expressed as physical pain. Since she was raised to not complain, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if she also married someone who behaves in ways (consciously or unconsciously) that tend to discourage their partner from expressing thoughts and feelings.


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## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

Intricate Mystic said:


> How did you ruin it in the past?


I don't know that I did, but it's possible that I was much less aware of how easily she was discouraged from talking about her thoughts and feelings. I grew up in an environment where it was normal to have to make yourself heard.

Like we had a sort of argument last night over the TV. I was watching the show "Big Bang Theory", which is not something I normally like watching. She was in the kitchen making salsa. She came out into the living room, took the remote, and started looking through the list of channels while she said, "Let's see what else is on."

*Me:* Well, what if I wanted to watch that?
*Her:* (stops abruptly and puts the remote down) I thought you didn't like that show.
*Me:* I don't normally, but I was watching it now, so I might have wanted to this time.
*Her:* Well how was I supposed to know that?
*Me:* You couldn't have before asking.
*Her:* Fine. Watch your stupid show. I don't know what your problem is. But mine is you right now. Besides, you always do that to me.
*Me:* Um, no, I don't.
*Her:* Yes you do, all the time.
*Me:* No, that's a lie because I never do that.
*Her:* Then that's a lie.
*Me:* When's the last time I did that?
*Her:* Why are you being such a jerk? You do it whenever we watch TV. You always mute the commercials without asking what I want, for example. What if I wanted to hear it?
*Me:* What? I mute the commercials because you used to always tell me to. I'd rather hear them, but I mute them because you always said to mute them and I just do it without being asked now. If it was up to me, I'd never mute them.
*Her:* If it was up to you, you'd never let me have any say about anything with the TV.
*Me:* I'm talking about what _I_ do.
*Her:* Yeah, so am I.
*Me:* And you can talk about what _you_ do. You can't say what intentions I have or what I want. Only I can.
*Her:* Are we done?
*Me:* If you want to be, sure.

I turned off the TV and went to finish my dinner in the kitchen.

*Her:* What do you want?
*Me:* Nothing.
*Her:* Then why are you in here?
*Me:* I'm eating my dinner.
*Her:* Why aren't you in there watching the show?
*Me:* I don't want to.
*Her:* I came in here to get away from you. But I can't concentrate with you having this negative vibe around you. I can just feel it, like you're standing there just waiting to say something.
*Me:* Well, I'm sorry you're feeling that. I don't have anything else I want to say and I'm not feeling anything negatively. You asked if we were done and I agreed to end it. So I'm done with it. I'm just finishing my dinner now because the table is a better place than in front of a blank TV.

I later found out she thought I was in a bad mood since I came home and it affected everything after that. I was in a perfectly fine mood all evening until the argument, so I didn't know how I gave off that impression, but apologized for giving it off. After a little while she started talking about something else and all feelings were good after that, at least from what I can tell.


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## Intricate Mystic (Apr 3, 2010)

@Elaminopy

Wow, some of the stuff your wife said seems a bit harsh. There are probably underlying issues here that go beyond what TV shows you do or don't watch. It seems like she has some built up resentments towards you. Maybe her life has become unbalanced by staying at home full-time with the children and not having a job/career outside of the home. The fact that she spends time in the evenings pursing photography interests with the computer suggests that she may feel a need for more adult work-world challenges than she's currently getting.


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