# What does the ego mean to you?



## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

In what ways do you feel threatened when your typing is questioned? Specially when you are personally settled with you type? How does it feel and what do you think? What is your instinctive reaction? Why do you think it feels this way, and do you think this is what they call the "ego" being threatened? That is, you whole sense of self. How do you deal with it? Why are you afraid of it, does it remind you of fear of death?


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Well, when I think ego I think... conscious awareness and sense of self. Which is important of course. As for the question about typing though...

When I first got into enneagram, I mostly found typing suggestions fun or interesting, but these days it makes me more anxious and uncomfortable. I've also been unhealthy lately, so that's part of it, but the main problem is when someone sees me as a type for reasons I don't feel are very good. Because they can type me whatever they want, but it's really bothersome when they keep insisting for example, that I have x trait therefor I am y type, but I don't feel that trait is really relevant. And maybe that trait isn't really the most relevant part of that type anyway, but they keep insisting I am that type for stupid reasons, which gives me an aversion to the type. Especially if I thought they were an ass about it too, because then it's extra annoying that someone who is that stupid and an ass, could be right in any way. Even though they aren't really, because it's for the wrong reasons, but it's still as if they are proven right. So it's like no, fuck them. So basically it's really bothersome to my ego if I "prove" someone I dislike right. 

Aside from that, I can feel really insecure, because I might relate to a type, but maybe I'm not x enough to "claim" that type, and I'm scared of saying something that will make me look stupid, so I'm hesitant to say I'm considering a type if there's a chance they might be like LOL NO, THAT'S A RIDICULOUS IDEA. So instead I might try to mention things I think might be related to that type without actually saying that's what I have in mind, to see if they bite first. I might even go "is this type X" when I have a different type in mind. So in a way I can be sneaky.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

Rose for a Heart said:


> In what ways do you feel threatened when your typing is questioned?


 Ah yes... I should understand this struggle because people often question any eight's typing...

To be completely honest... My typing is not questioned anywhere nearly as frequently as other eights on this forum. People who question my typing do so because _their_ eight typing is under scrutiny. And furthermore, nobody who was persistent in publicly questioning my typing has _ever_ gotten away with it. I never ask for people's opinions on my typing, and therefore, any commenting on my typing breaks the first rule of this forum by default.



> Specially when you are personally settled with you type?


 Be like an eight and _expand_. Don't just settle for one core typing or a tritype. For good measure, go for all nine.



> How does it feel and what do you think?


 It's a pleasure to not be a living stereotype. Something tells me I'm still a stereotype... my excessive abuse of spoiler tags?

But I would suggest, and I'm saying this with full acknowledgement that I've been guilty of this in the past, and profoundly thankful for the mercy shown to me for this...

Especially for eights, whoever publicly question another person's typing first loses. 

Take a leaf from five's book and keep that info to yourself for competitive advantage. Things to consider: whether the person genuinely think of themselves as that type. If so, it might be worth it to interact with them in intellectual/social spheres where type do not matter (sphere/world navigation is _completely_ within a body type's domain). However, if you have reasons to believe that the person _knows_ they're "undercover", think of it as "shame center 101".
Take a leaf from two's book and keep that info to yourself for "manners" and "not blatantly breaking the first rule of this forum" reasons. "Limitations inspire creativity", so think of this as training grounds to learn the valuable skill of emotional manipulation. I mean, what? Anyway, be open to the possibility of "losing the battle in order to win the war". Depending on your ego-vengeance-inspired goals, having your typing be questioned might be an incredibly cheap price to pay for results.
Take a leaf from seven's book and encourage them to expand their horizons.
Or take a leaf from nine's book and not give a fuck.



> What is your instinctive reaction?


 Hit that "Report this post" button.



> Why do you think it feels this way,


 I'm feeling very secure. And I do believe the mods have been very merciful and fair. <3



> and do you think this is what they call the "ego" being threatened? That is, you whole sense of self. How do you deal with it? Why are you afraid of it, does it remind you of fear of death?


 My typing being questioned is literally (think physical/body center) *not* a "life or death" situation. I'm considerably more likely to die from my alcoholism than strangers on the internet questioning my typing.

Anyway, eights tend to have huge egos... you know, lust and all. What's the point of having a huge ego/armor if we don't take it into situations where it'll be dented? I mean, seriously, our egos are big enough, it can afford to take quite a few hits. *throws shade at the nine wing* If you could choose to have a clean and shiny armor which shows a peaceful and lack of excitement in your life, or a messy and dirty armor which shows evidence that a defensive mechanism has been stress-tested, which offers opportunities for armor reconfiguration... I would feel more secure with the second option. 
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Personally, I don't mind that other people mistype themselves as eights. Quite frankly, and I do admit to acting in bad faith when I genuinely suspect that someone is mistyped, but I do like the freedom to "take my gloves off"... or really, "take a set of gloves off". If you're going to identify yourself as _any_ "power-seeking" type, I would expect that you can stomach some aggression heading your way. Lust: aggression is love! <3

Life would be easier if people were just like me. Learning about how people are different is _hard_. It requires a lot of mental and emotional resources to process and keep track of ALL the things.

And fuck that! Aha! I found it! The technically-correct, efficient, and lazy solution to this problem! We have all nine types within us! It's just easier to reach out and connect to people's "latent eight'ness".


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

I am not sure if it has to do with "ego" but, I have always been very scared when people don't see how I feel because it kind of feels like I don't exist. There are other things that could trigger me but this has always been my main focus.
It feels...cruel, no more than that, it feels sociopathic (not calling anyone a sociopath, just trying to convey how it feels) to feel like you are screaming and garbled words are the only things that come out and no one can hear, they think it means something it doesn't. Like you are not able to properly convey that you EXIST, it's very scary. That is usually what I meant when on here I have before said that something feels "dangerous," because of someone's attempt to not see or squelch vulnerability. People have told me repeatedly that these people are just "different from me," I guess the 9 in me wanted badly to come to a common ground, a place we could all understand each other but that doesn't always happen. The 6 in me can get paranoid that people will deliberately ignore how I feel or not see me. It's a form of attack by not attacking. The 1 in me is angry when people behave in ways I find despicable, when they leave someone bleeding or worse hurt them more. 

It doesn't make any logical sense because what am I exactly afraid of? All I feel is the fear, and then I return, because it's too scary. I am not actually going to die, so why? I exist whether people see me or not, but I am not sure my body *realizes *that.


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## Dare (Nov 8, 2016)

Rose for a Heart said:


> In what ways do you feel threatened when your typing is questioned? Specially when you are personally settled with you type? How does it feel and what do you think?


Someone wants to strip me bare in public. Kinky. Curious.



> What is your instinctive reaction?


Dive in.



> Why do you think it feels this way, and do you think this is what they call the "ego" being threatened? That is, you whole sense of self.


Receiving information is not what constitutes as personal to me. I'm open to it. If it's bad information it gets treated as trash and is put out. Not me. If it's good, I'm grateful.



> How do you deal with it?


Show me yours and I'll show you mine (thoughts/reasons). It will soon enough be established who is teaching whom. 



> Why are you afraid of it, does it remind you of fear of death?


I forgot to pick up my fear of death. This makes this part awkward. Suddenly _feeling_ naked.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

Rose for a Heart said:


> I am not sure if it has to do with "ego" but, I have always been very scared when people don't see how I feel because it kind of feels like I don't exist. There are other things that could trigger me but this has always been my main focus.


 Check this table out. The "basic desire" column? I gave an "egos are a defensive mechanism" answer. I would suspect people would give a type-related answer because we all see egos as different things.

So if you gather all nine sets of defensive mechanisms, people questioning your type stops mattering as much. This is a problem that solves itself out.



> It feels...cruel, no more than that, it feels sociopathic (not calling anyone a sociopath, just trying to convey how it feels) to feel like you are screaming and garbled words are the only things that come out and no one can hear, they think it means something it doesn't. Like you are not able to properly convey that you EXIST, it's very scary.


 Yeah... I cut people out of my life. I feel like there should be some kind of context or "line" though before it's into "sociopathic" territory. Here's my side of the story:

_I've_ been called a "psychopath", a "sociopath", an "aloof bitch", etc, because I "treated people like their feelings didn't matter". It always came from people who thought we were closer than we really were! I have a very strong sense of boundaries, and I'm sensitive to people who are trying to emotionally manipulate me to be closer than what I am comfortable with. It's invasive, deceptive, and what they're trying to do is bypass my consent, betraying their disrespect, that _my feelings of comfort_ isn't important to them. It automatically destroys any trust I will have in these kinds of people.

I have the right to decide for myself who I want to associate with. If certain people cannot respect their places in my life and did something to violate my trust, then they just won't be in my life. Needless to say, they're as good as dead to me.



> That is usually what I meant when on here I have before said that something feels "dangerous," because of someone's attempt to not see or squelch vulnerability.


 *cough* In my case, I wouldn't say it's a _conscious_ attempt to ignore vulnerability... that's definitely unconscious. It takes a lot of _conscious_ effort for eights to truly understand what "vulnerability" is, because that would require them to feel their own weakness.



> People have told me repeatedly that these people are just "different from me,"


 Does the three in you see that people _value_ different things than you?



> I guess the 9 in me wanted badly to come to a common ground, a place we could all understand each other but that doesn't always happen. The 6 in me can get paranoid that people will deliberately ignore how I feel or not see me. *It's a form of attack by not attacking.* The 1 in me is angry when people behave in ways I find despicable, when they leave someone bleeding or worse hurt them more.


 I know! It made me incredibly angry when I was on the receiving end of it! Then when I was cooling off, I begrudgingly found it incredibly impressive! Then, because I'm a vengeful bitch, I stole created my own copy of that defensive mechanism.

Actually, this time, this asshole was the one who cut me off... first. I killed him in my memories, and then I mourned the death of the part of me that was invested in this person. "I'm not the same person anymore". Then I moved on. Then this asshole had the gall to ruin my birthdays by reminding me of his existence (WITHOUT an apology for his asshole'ish behavior). The last time, he said some shit like "I'll never forget who you are", and I'm like, to myself, "YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW ME ANYMORE! PLEASE FORGET ABOUT THAT PERSON AND MOVE ON ALREADY!" *creates an email filter to forward his emails to the trash* "YOU WON'T DISRUPT MY INNER PEACE EVER AGAIN!" :angry:



> It doesn't make any logical sense because what am I exactly afraid of? All I feel is the fear, and then I return, because it's too scary. I am not actually going to die, so why? I exist whether people see me or not, but I am not sure my body *realizes *that.


 If I had to guess... that no one is emotionally invested in your well-being? That no one cares enough to come check if you're alive? That your life is so meaningless, if you died, no one would feel a sense of loss?

I don't go to bed every night freaking out that I won't wake up the next morning, so I hope to peacefully die in my sleep, in the loving comfort of my bed and blanket.


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

cir said:


> Yeah... I cut people out of my life. I feel like there should be some kind of context or "line" though before it's into "sociopathic" territory.


Well if it's cruel to someone, it still will be, whether or not you see it. 



> If I had to guess... that no one is emotionally invested in your well-being? That no one cares enough to come check if you're alive? That your life is so meaningless, if you died, no one would feel a sense of loss?


Um no, that's not what I meant lol. I was thinking about actually experiencing something versus just thinking about it as something out there instead of feeling it in your body. 

And no I don't think "people wouldn't care if I died" that makes no sense to me since of course they would care.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

Rose for a Heart said:


> Well if it's cruel to someone, it still will be, whether or not you see it.


 I find acceptance that I can be a cruel person. Shame is the emotion of disconnection, and that includes social disconnection. People can only "cry wolf" so many times before their words start to have no value. Violating people's trust _should_ have social consequences, so they are free to pity themselves and call it cruel all they want. It won't change that they're dead to me and I will feel no guilt over it.



> And no I don't think "people wouldn't care if I died" that makes no sense to me since of course they would care.


 Meh. When I'm dead, I won't care. Hopefully I'm not a source of too much sadness.


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

cir said:


> I find acceptance that I can be a cruel person. Shame is the emotion of disconnection, and that includes social disconnection. People can only "cry wolf" so many times before their words start to have no value. Violating people's trust _should_ have social consequences, so they are free to pity themselves and call it cruel all they want. It won't change that they're dead to me and I will feel no guilt over it.


Oh I wasn't commenting on your stance/values in personal relationships, I was just objecting to the idea that there is something "objective" about what cruelty should be. If someone feels that way, it's definitely real to them. 



> Meh. When I'm dead, I won't care. Hopefully I'm not a source of too much sadness.


:sad:


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

Rose for a Heart said:


> Oh I wasn't commenting on your stance/values in personal relationships, I was just objecting to the idea that there is something "objective" about what cruelty should be. If someone feels that way, it's definitely real to them.


 Premeditated murder, drugging with a psychedelic that amounts of psychic rape, inducing an opiate dependency, capture/rape/torture...

If ignoring your existence is on the same level as _literally_ murdering you or turning you into a hollow shell of your former self with permanent physical/chemical damages in the body and brain... I don't know... something a bit... disproportionate...

In comparison, people have more control over their own feelings. In the situations I listed, they wouldn't even have control over how they die. So on the spectrum of objectivity to subjectivity... you wouldn't think these things lean more towards "objectively" evil?

Oh my god, it's horrible! I think I developed something resembling a conscious! *shame and horror*



> :sad:


 Different personal values.


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

cir said:


> Premeditated murder, drugging with a psychedelic that amounts of psychic rape, inducing an opiate dependency, capture/rape/torture...
> 
> If ignoring your existence is on the same level as _literally_ murdering you or turning you into a hollow shell of your former self with permanent physical/chemical damages in the body and brain... I don't know... something a bit... disproportionate...
> 
> ...


I actually had no intention of turning this into an argument at all. No it's not, but that doesn't mean it should be ignored since it can take a serious emotional toll on the person. That's all I have to say about this, don't really want to continue this anymore.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

I guess when I use the term "ego" I am thinking about self-concept. Almost like a self-ideology, if you will. I don't think ego is a bad thing, I completely disagree with the idea that in order to find enlightenment we must completely rid ourselves of "ego" (sounds like dissociation to me). I believe there are unhealthy and healthy aspects of ego. Ego can be too rigid, but it can also be too unstable - both are detrimental in their own way.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

Rose for a Heart said:


> I actually had no intention of turning this into an argument at all. No it's not, *but that doesn't mean it should be ignored since it can take a serious emotional toll on the person.* That's all I have to say about this, don't really want to continue this anymore.


 I acknowledge your desire to end this conversation, so this will just be my closing statement.

Shame: If someone has done something to cause distrust, then the "serious emotional toll" is the consequences of their actions. They have no moral high ground to obligate others to care for their emotional well-being after they've acted deceptively and in bad faith. The "serious emotional toll" is fully justified. They can take responsibility for their own emotions and find a way to get over it.

Good night!


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

cir said:


> I acknowledge your desire to end this conversation, so this will just be my closing statement.
> 
> Shame: If someone has done something to cause distrust, then the "serious emotional toll" is the consequences of their actions. They have no moral high ground to obligate others to care for their emotional well-being after they've acted deceptively and in bad faith. The "serious emotional toll" is fully justified. They can take responsibility for their own emotions and find a way to get over it.
> 
> Good night!


I don't know what you mean by shame here, but like I have said before I wasn't talking about it in the context of your relationships, or in the context of anything at all, just a general thing...



The Perfect Storm said:


> I guess when I use the term "ego" I am thinking about self-concept. Almost like a self-ideology, if you will. I don't think ego is a bad thing, *I completely disagree with the idea that in order to find enlightenment we must completely rid ourselves of "ego" *(sounds like dissociation to me). I believe there are unhealthy and healthy aspects of ego. Ego can be too rigid, but it can also be too unstable - both are detrimental in their own way.


I didn't know that was a thing. I think it makes more sense to understand the ego than to get rid of it.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Rose for a Heart said:


> I didn't know that was a thing. I think it makes more sense to understand the ego than to get rid of it.


Unfortunately it is! It's a manifestation of spiritual bypassing, I believe. Seems more prevalent these days, perhaps because things like yoga and new-age "self-help" quick-fixes are all the range.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

I see it as a habitual psychological process that defines our sense of self (often unconsciously). The problem it can create is that it both separates us from our connection to the world or universe (this is me vs. that's not me) and limits our ability to be all that we are (I am this vs. I am not that). The Enneagram types were originally used to point to that process so that we could see life without the bias and limitations of it, but somehow the types instead became a way to more closely identify with it instead of less ("I'm this type, what type are you?").

I don't see it as something to get rid of, society demands a sense of self. I do think becoming aware of how it works and what reality looks like without it allows you to respond to _it_ as you choose ("there _it_ goes again, do I want to go along with _it_ or not?") instead of being used by _it_ without a choice ("I can't help myself, that's just who I am").


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

Still trying to understand what that means to me, but I was wondering about it in context of Personality Disorders (I would be very interested if anyone else has something to say on this as well). It feels to me like a personality "disorder" is when you are stuck in that place where the ego is threatened, for pretty much most if not all of your life. That's why they get "triggered" easily, because the anything could remind them just how fragile it is, just how close they are...to something. I don't know what exactly. I may be biased towards one understand of it since I had Borderline PD, so I am curious if someone else has something to say on this. It's when you start being comfortable and safe in your personality (as opposed to believing that you are worthless, everything about you is worthless, no one loves you - rejection doesn't mean he just doesn't like you, it means he finds you repulsive, that people might think you are stupid or foolish, and just in general feeling like not only is there an absence of love, there is a presence of hatred if you do something people don't like about you). You can imagine why that would feel pretty insecure in and of itself. Like if you have your identity formed around something like that.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

I'm just going to throw this out there as "food for thought". Anyone is free to ignore this if they do not find it relevant.

The construction of this response will be a bit different. I'm replying twice. The first portion is based on my experiences on the matter. The second portion is based on quotes I pulled out of Almaa's book.

[HR][/HR]


enneathusiast said:


> I see it as a habitual psychological process that defines our sense of self (often unconsciously).


 I'm going to follow up on @The Perfect Storm 's comment that ego can be too rigid, and that ego can be too fluid (and hence, unstable). I also happen to recall, in an older thread somewhere, that @Figure specifically mentioned to you (paraphrasing) loosening and tightening that ego/box.

Many threads, one conversation: @Strontphite : Hey! It just so happens that I was wrapping up this answer when I got your reply... in that other thread... where I was also talking about the ego. Here's my fusion of mixed Jungian/enneagram perspective. I'll get back to you in a bit. I need a break. @[email protected]

Ego exists in a spectrum of solidity to fluidity. As far as I know, we're all speaking from our personal experiences with this process.


* *







> The problem it can create is that it both separates us from our connection to the world or universe (this is me vs. that's not me) and limits our ability to be all that we are (I am this vs. I am not that).


 Yes, when the ego is too rigid, it can create the problems in which you stated.

However, when the ego is fluid enough, it can _facilitate_ our connections to the world/universe. Instead of "limiting our ability to be all that we are", a more fluid ego makes it possible to form genuine/authentic connections with others (as opposed to connecting to our _images_ of others) and explore new facets of ourselves, which is what makes actualizing all nine types within us possible.

An ego that's _too_ fluid gets you a type nine. Congratulations. Hence, "all nine types are variations of type nine" and "we have all nine types within us".

When it's possible to explore new facets of ourselves, the duality of "this is me vs that's not me" or "I am this vs. I am not that", the duality enforced by the body center, is resolved because we can recognize, "it's possible I am like that" or "it's possible I can be like that".



> The Enneagram types were originally used to point to that process so that we could see life without the bias and limitations of it, but somehow the *types instead became a way to more closely identify with it instead of less* ("I'm this type, what type are you?").


 It's not a crime to adapt and use something in a different way from its originally intended purpose. You assert this preconception very strongly, and in the process, you trivialized the trials, complexities, and nuances of the shame/image center.

Not to mention, your conclusion/assertion continue to reinforce the problem you stated/created. "Types instead became a way to more closely identify with it instead of less" -> "more identification to a type" vs "less identification to a type" -> "I am this" vs "I am not that".

Did you know that in Jungian psychology, the "shadow" and the "persona" are "opposites"/"dual"? The self-deception of "ego-vanity" is that we believe we are our personas/masks, our personas/masks represent the entirety of who we are, and that our shame/shadows are _not_ a part of us. "I am this" (persona/mask) vs "I am not that" (shame/shadow).

One could have found a solution to that duality in the shame center. It's in the definition of the emotion itself. Shame is disconnection, in this case, the disconnection between our personas/masks and our shadows/shame. What if we tried _connecting_ them (and endure the existential pain that follows)? Perhaps, if we could loosen our egos enough to start connecting/accepting our shame/shadows, a life-long process, we can find "shadow gold", otherwise known as the "virtues", the perspective of the higher heart/image center.

When we loosen our egos enough to be able to accept our shame, we undergo a process call "individuation", which involves integrating the (personal and collective)x(consciousness and unconscious). And when you assert so crudely and strongly that we ought to identify with types less instead of more, you completely miss the rewards of the heart center. And that's a shame.



> I don't see it as something to get rid of, society demands a sense of self. I do think becoming aware of how it works and *what reality looks like without it* allows you to respond to _it_ as you choose ("there _it_ goes again, do I want to go along with _it_ or not?") instead of being used by _it_ without a choice ("I can't help myself, that's just who I am").


 Reality looks like *nothing* without the ego. Without the ego, you are staring at the void. Are you happy now?




[HR][/HR]
For each quote/response pair, match up the colors. Red is used in two sets, and they refer to the same concept.


* *







enneathusiast said:


> I see it as a habitual psychological process that defines our sense of self (often unconsciously). The problem it can create is that it both *separates* us from our connection to the world or universe (this is me *vs.* that's not me) and *limits our ability to be all that we are* (I am this *vs.* I am not that).





Facets of Unity said:


> Ordinarily, *we do not experience the true nature of our souls* because we have defined ourselves vis-à-vis the boundaries of our bodies. We have taken these boundaries to define our identity, believing that these physical boundaries are a fundamental and intrinsic aspect of who we are when, in fact, they are the most superficial aspect of who we are. *This conviction that the body boundary defines us actually solidifies the sense of separateness* by creating a layer of surface tension in the skin. When we actually experience the body boundary, we feel it as tension on the periphery of the body.






enneathusiast said:


> The Enneagram types were originally used to point to that process so that we *could see life without the bias and limitations* of it,





Facets of Unity said:


> It is not that physical boundaries don’t exist—if that were the case, there would be no differentiation, no color, no action. *They do exist, but not as partitioning walls; seen through the fact of Holy Omniscience, they exist as differentiating outlines, articulating many different tastes, textures, and colors, without obscuring the underlying nature of everything as One.* It is as though you have dropped different colors of dye into a fluid; many colors are swirling around, but it is still all the same fluid.






enneathusiast said:


> but somehow *the types instead became a way to more closely identify with it instead of less* *("I'm this type, what type are you?")*.





Facets of Unity said:


> One way of putting it is that the boundaries define a difference, but not a separateness. *So I am different from you, but I am not separate from you; people are different from each other, but they are not separate from each other.* *The existence of boundaries, then, does not negate the underlying unity.* Boundaries are characteristic of the objective concepts or noetic forms, relevant on the level of creation and existence. Boundaries and the forms they define are characteristics of the thoughts of God, as it were. This is why we call the universe a mind.






enneathusiast said:


> I don't see it as something to get rid of, society demands *a sense of self*. I do think becoming aware of how it works and what reality looks like without it *allows you to respond to it as you choose* ("there _it_ goes again, do I want to go along with _it_ or not?") *instead of being used by it without a choice *("I can't help myself, that's just who I am").





Facets of Unity said:


> *To the ego, separateness means impermeable boundaries, or isolation,* but real separation is something quite different. Real separation means *particularization out of the unity or, for human beings, individuation.* *It means recognizing that your true nature is not determined by external influences.* At a deep unconscious level, it involves separating from your mother—separating in the sense that who you take yourself to be is not determined by her. This is not isolating yourself, but rather recognizing your uniqueness and individuating.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Rose for a Heart said:


> In what ways do you feel threatened when your typing is questioned? Specially when you are personally settled with you type? How does it feel and what do you think? What is your instinctive reaction? Why do you think it feels this way, and do you think this is what they call the "ego" being threatened? That is, you whole sense of self. How do you deal with it? Why are you afraid of it, does it remind you of fear of death?


The ego is in large a set of identifications.
Objects of past that are stored to keep the id from going wild in sorrow over their loss.
I think if you disturb enough of the identifications, the pain may very well feel like you are about to die.

Now lately I don't care much for my enneagram type getting questioned.
After all I find the enneagram a bit lacking.
My Jungian type is more complicated.
Throwing it in doubt, will evoke the idea of them being wrong.
Depending on my state of conciousness I might have several emotions emerge.
When I remember that whatever state of conciousness is a reflection on the operation of my defence mechanisms,
I usually feel better.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

@*cir*

I'm guessing the spoiler at the end of your last post was directed to me. I didn't see anything cogent to reply to. It just read like an attack or an attempt to tell me how I'm wrong about my own opinion. I don't really know what to do with it, nor do I want to do anything with it.


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

Rose for a Heart said:


> Asking this one more time - does anybody know how the ego might be different in someone with a personality disorder compared to a healthy individual?


So, to preface:
1) I have no idea where I'm going with this.
2) I have no experience with _personality_ disorders. (Mood? Physical? Got you covered. Just not personality.)

To me, these questions always... require a touch of doublethink, I guess. You don't want to ignore the effect any disorder has on your personality, but you also don't want to say it controls everything you do. It's a fine line between being ruled by disordered thinking and "embracing" the symptoms. 

So, the most obvious with me, I have a severe physical disability. Should I ignore that when trying to type myself? No. I can't deny the experiences my disability "gave" me have made me partly into who I am. On the other hand, I refuse to base my entire concept of identity on it (that is, I am a disabled person, but I am not my disability). An easy example is assuming my physical disability means I must be SP-first: it doesn't, it simply modifies how I might manifest as an SP-first. I _could _be anything, it's just the _manifestation _that may change.

The main problem is if you start assuming disorder = identity, it implies assuming everyone with those disorders must be similar. And to an extent, they are - I mean, they do share symptoms - but there's such a wide variety in the human spectrum that not everyone is going to manifest the same. A depressed ENTP isn't going to be the same as a depressed ISFP, that's just how it is. A BPD 7 isn't the same as a BPD 4, and so on. The experiences we all face and the genetics we're born with mean not everyone is the same.

Am I making sense? Those with disorders do have extra legwork to do, but that doesn't make the legwork impossible. It just requires a tad more introspection, usually.

(Edit: I also have ADHD and depression, so I had to factor those in, too. I had to look sideways at half my crap to figure some stuff out.)


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

Paradigm said:


> So, to preface:
> 1) I have no idea where I'm going with this.
> 2) I have no experience with _personality_ disorders. (Mood? Physical? Got you covered. Just not personality.)
> 
> ...


The person isn't always going to be aware that they are under the influence of disordered thinking. That's why it's a personality disorder. No amount of "you're doing this to yourself" is going to break through to them unless they decided to truly be vulnerable. If that makes sense. I would imagine it in enneagram terms, being caught up so desperately in what your ego believes it needs that you are unable to look outside of your "self" at all. It could even be so debilitating or painful people might even want to give up on life entirely, because you can't see if or not it will get better when you are in the clutches of it.


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

Rose for a Heart said:


> The person isn't always going to be aware that they are under the influence of disordered thinking. That's why it's a personality disorder. No amount of "you're doing this to yourself" is going to break through to them unless they decided to truly be vulnerable. If that makes sense. I would imagine it in enneagram terms, being caught up so desperately in what your ego believes it needs that you are unable to look outside of your "self" at all. It could even be so debilitating or painful people might even want to give up on life entirely, because you can't see if or not it will get better when you are in the clutches of it.


No, sorry, I realize that. I'm not saying everyone (PD or not) is going to be aware of how things affect them - most aren't, me included on many, many things. I'm also mildly confused on the usage of ego in this thread, as it feels like a nebulous term. 

I wasn't trying to dismiss the difficulty of introspection or PDs. It's hard! It's like asking me to run (lol) or "just be happy" (...srs?). I guess that I was trying to say that, ideally, judgement shouldn't be placed upon the disorder itself. It's kinda, vaguely like one of my "mottos" (I hate the word motto), "all feelings are valid but not all actions are." Your (anyone's) disorder isn't a bad thing and it doesn't inherently make you a bad person - but you can do "bad" things because of it. 

Maybe that's what the ego is about? Your ego is trying to defend itself by making bad decisions, but that's also not... evil. It's just a defense. Sometimes you can't help it. That's fine. The war is about learning when your brain (ego?) is lying to you. I imagine the coping mechanisms of each disorder varies, as it does from person to person. (Since it's all I have experience with: one depressed person might find comfort in a support group, another might find support groups more depressing.)


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

Paradigm said:


> Maybe that's what the ego is about? Your ego is trying to defend itself by making bad decisions, but that's also not... evil. It's just a defense. Sometimes you can't help it. That's fine.* The war is about learning when your brain (ego?) is lying to you.* I imagine the coping mechanisms of each disorder varies, as it does from person to person. (Since it's all I have experience with: one depressed person might find comfort in a support group, another might find support groups more depressing.)


Yes, I agree, it's a journey


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## shazam (Oct 18, 2015)

Something small that can be broken.


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