# Victim and infantile relationship



## Jamaia (Dec 17, 2014)

I've tried looking around this forum and the internets, but the information seems sparse and scattered. Can you guys provide tips on finding more information or elaborate on this: Victim - Wikisocion ? Comic and tragic victims? Especially in relation to Childlike type? Please, do tell more about childlike too. 

I'm not very familiar with Socionics unfortunately, but I relate a lot with the Ne-ILE description by V. Meged and A. Ovcharov. My SO is an INTp and victim (pseudo-aggressor) x childlike dynamic seems to be a recurring source of misunderstandings. I've got a rough idea of the issue but I was hoping there might be more detailed information available to make it click for me. 

Thanks in advance!


----------



## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

You mean this? Socionics Romance-styles


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart (Aug 18, 2015)

You may want to think about this from another perspective. How about you answer these questions?

1: Describe your ideal mate. What qualities does this mate have? Are they wealthy? Poor? Supportive? Strong? Intelligent? Physically fit? What attracts you, and why does it attract you?

2: Describe the most successful relationship you have had. What were the good points? The bad points? What did your mate do that drives you up the wall and down the creek? What did they do that made your heart melt?

By looking through this, you will see what things you value and what you don't. Then have your mate answer the same questions. See how they are different and how they are similar. This will tell you a lot. It will also give you solid examples of the differences between these behavior types! roud:


----------



## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

@Fenix Wulfheart

*1: Describe your ideal mate. What qualities does this mate have? Are they wealthy? Poor? Supportive? Strong? Intelligent? Physically fit? What attracts you, and why does it attract you?*

Kind of hard for me to answer this, as I hate listing superficial qualities. It's almost easier for me to list what I don't like rather than what I do like.

But, I don't care if a man is wealthy or not. Material things like a man having a nice car doesn't matter at all to me. I only require that he's not, ya know, a freeloader. I've always been attracted to men that were intelligent. Not even going to lie, but if his grammar sucks, it's a bit of a turn off. No matter how physically attractive he is. A good sense of humor is appreciated as well. Most of all, he has to have a kind heart. I can't list physical qualities because I've been attracted to men with quite a variety of appearances. 
*
2: Describe the most successful relationship you have had. What were the good points? The bad points? What did your mate do that drives you up the wall and down the creek? What did they do that made your heart melt?

*I've never been in a real relationship before. The closest I had was with a guy I met when I was quite young, only 13. The good points? Well, he was sweet and there was no question that he liked me. But... the bad outweighed the good. Everything I liked, he hated and would always reprimand them. Hardly had any mutual interests. We had very different life goals and I just can't be with someone whom I don't think will fit in with my goals or lifestyle. He would really piss me off when he didn't want to go do anything. I would want to, say, go see a movie or hang out together but him? He always wanted to stay home. Not that I don't enjoy quality time at home at all, but all the time is bound to get very boring for me.


----------



## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

ShieldMaiden said:


> He would really piss me off when he didn't want to go do anything. I would want to, say, go see a movie or hang out together but him? He always wanted to stay home. Not that I don't enjoy quality time at home at all, but all the time is bound to get very boring for me.
> [/COLOR]


Lol i had a bf like that, he sucked. I threw obvious hints that it would be nice if we went did something instead of just lying in bed all day every day because i already do that all the time. And when i asked like "can we go do something" hed be like "well what do you want to do?" just ARUGRGHH figure something out ffs. Take me somewhere. Fucking annoying.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart (Aug 18, 2015)

ShieldMaiden said:


> 1: Kind of hard for me to answer this, as I hate listing superficial qualities. It's almost easier for me to list what I don't like rather than what I do like.
> 
> But, I don't care if a man is wealthy or not. Material things like a man having a nice car doesn't matter at all to me. I only require that he's not, ya know, a freeloader. I've always been attracted to men that were intelligent. Not even going to lie, but if his grammar sucks, it's a bit of a turn off. No matter how physically attractive he is. A good sense of humor is appreciated as well. Most of all, he has to have a kind heart. I can't list physical qualities because I've been attracted to men with quite a variety of appearances.
> 
> 2: I've never been in a real relationship before. The closest I had was with a guy I met when I was quite young, only 13. The good points? Well, he was sweet and there was no question that he liked me. But... the bad outweighed the good. Everything I liked, he hated and would always reprimand them. Hardly had any mutual interests. We had very different life goals and I just can't be with someone whom I don't think will fit in with my goals or lifestyle. He would really piss me off when he didn't want to go do anything. I would want to, say, go see a movie or hang out together but him? He always wanted to stay home. Not that I don't enjoy quality time at home at all, but all the time is bound to get very boring for me.


Sounds like Aggressor to me, but with some other elements too. Wanting sweetness/kindness isn't aggressor, that seems more Caregiver or Infantile types. Otherwise, though, here: 

" *no doubts about own interest in another person*
*not prone to hesitation about whether or not to reveal that interest* (Probably, sounds like it)
focus is more on own interest than whether or not the other person might reciprocate
*romantic interaction is more about "toughness" than "tenderness"* (You want tenderness to come to you, not to dish it out yourself. Or so I gathered)
needs to feel some sense of "superiority" over the partner, but worthwhile only if the partner is seen as able to largely "keep up"
this takes the form of power games, which others might regard as cruel or bitchy
*in the case of female Aggressors with male partners, the above tends to assume the characteristic of a woman expecting total * devotion from the partner, rather than her being "bossy"* (Total is exaggeration here, but this does seem to be the dynamic you have going)
little inclination to externally admit not having been the one to end a relationship, unless if adopting a "who cares" front simultaneously

This romance style is defined by focus on Se which is static, irrational, and extroverted. This means that an Aggressor sees attraction to another person as *a static state, which he feels it is up to him to change in the direction more in agreement to his preference*. This accounts for an Aggressor's inclination to take the initiative in approaching the object of his interest and being "relentless" in his pursuit, as well as, even during an established relationship, *continuing to try to "shake things up" or "get things moving"*. If his partner is not receptive to such behavior, *this discourages the Aggressor, and results in his interest cooling off."*
Aggressor: Aggressors tend to perceive other Aggressors as exciting partners worthy of admiration and respect, but ultimately unsatisfactory due to a sense of never-ending competition for an ill-defined "upper hand", which becomes frustrating.
Victim: Aggressors tend to perceive Victims simultaneously as pleasantly able to "keep up" regarding more "intensive" interactions, and also as not annoyingly prone to always wanting "to win". *Aggressor women perceive Victim men as totally devoted yet reassuringly "strong".* (It sounds like this is what was missing from your relationship, and that you wanted. You wanted him to keep up with you, to go do things, to basicly be strong. This is why Aggressors go after Victims (I still hate that word...Victim grr))
Caregiver: Aggressors tend to perceive Caregivers as somewhat boring and patronizing.
Infantile: Agressors tend to perceive Infantiles as too goofy and unexciting, ultimately not taking them seriously as partners"


----------



## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Yeah, I have to agree. That sounds like Aggressor. I think the name confuses people in today's culture, because it seems like a "man word" and doesn't do due diligence to 50% of the population. The link I provided earlier has female version descriptions or something like that, I think. Victim Male I think it calls a "Loyal Knight." In your type's version, I think this would be like that cool, ethereal wisdom kind of Knight.


----------



## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Fenix Wulfheart said:


> ShieldMaiden said:
> 
> 
> > 1: Kind of hard for me to answer this, as I hate listing superficial qualities. It's almost easier for me to list what I don't like rather than what I do like.
> ...


I have a couple more examples to give you, will be back later though. It's time for dinner and my favorite show XD


----------



## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

@_ShieldMaiden_

Fwiw, before I met my current partner (ILI "victim"), I used to always end up dating either infantiles or caregivers. I think part of this was just due to me not really knowing what it as that I _really _wanted. I think I also used to try and act more like an "infantile" type because I assumed that was what men wanted. *faceplam*

When I first read the Socionics Romantic styles I was pretty sceptical. However, when I look at it now I can see how it does accurately describe certain patterns I've had in my relationships. The Agressor/victim dynamic (from a Gamma perspective) for me is very playful. There is a lot of tickling, poking, teasing each other, and playful name-calling, lol. It's very flirty. ILIs really appreciate the "force" of Se. In the past when I've been like that with infantiles or caregivers, they have sort of tried to get me to "tone it down", whereas Ni-types seem to be drawn to it and want more. It's very satisfying, lol.

EDIT: The best thing about Gamma "victims" is that it's so much fun breaking down their "walls." They won't make it easy for you either, it's always a challenge. They are a worthy "opponent". :blushed:


----------



## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

@The Perfect Storm

Yes. That sounds so perfect! You lucky duck. XD Never let your ILI go, okay? For me.
@Fenix Wulfheart

Mmm'kay, now I'll elaborate!

This guy would never want to do anything. Like, for example, my friends would invite me to go out to the movies, to the mall, etc. I would text him and ask him if he wanted to go. But he always said no. Usually said basically he would rather stay home and fix up his car. UGH. This hurt me. Bad. I felt like he didn't want to be part of my life. Of course, my friends told me that I needed to drop him. I kinda-sorta did. He decided one week that he was going to ignore me and pursue his ex girlfriend. After that, I cut him off. I literally shut off my feelings for him and I told him this, too. This was 5 years ago and you know what? HE STILL HAS MY NUMBER. He's married and has a kid now and everything, but he literally could not let me go. Not a chance, bub. But that's another conversation..

I want a guy that I can have experiences/fun with. I want something playful. I think at times I was "too much" for him. In fact, he admitted that I was "intimidating" to him. As in, he felt like I was the only girl he'd met that actually listened to him, that wanted to do things with him, and be loyal (Ugh) but he didn't know how to deal with that. I also want someone whom I know is going to be loyal. Disloyalty results in me cutting you off. For good. I don't do second chances.

THE SECOND EXAMPLE IS...

There was one guy I was nearly in a relationship with too. Our relationship could be summed up in this gif here...










LOL.

But for real. I was attracted to him because he was funny and active like me. We were very flirty and playful with one another. Play-fighting, joking around, very energetic sort of deal but... sometimes we were a bit much for each other. Like he would do something that pissed me off and then I would yell at him and it would completely take him off guard. Sometimes I felt like he was controlling. We were both very jealous for one another. (I'll admit, I'm the jealous sort. "Mine." )


----------



## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

In my experience with Infantiles, the challenge has been initiating a more formal relationship. 

Because it's Intuitive with Intuitive, there isn't an immediate formal or concrete initiative to anything more than sharing ideas or discussing topics in an offhand way, and someone needs to act out of their type in order for the relationship to be based on anything more than just "hanging out." 

Even bigger, and this is definitely paradoxical, but for me a sense of mutual "meanness" is absolutely required for me to take the relationship seriously. I need to be able to feel comfortable being an outright asshole and the girl either playing back, or not caring/not being swayed by it. It's not a personal or vindictive type of mean, but more like being able to handle extremely sarcastic comments without being offended - which Infantiles fundamentally _cannot_ do. Infantiles actually become very offended by this behavior, may take it personally, and tend to scold it for being "mean" whereas Aggressors will then engage directly (which I really like). SEE's get a kick out of making people feel the way they want them to feel, and acting the way I do offers them a challenge to doing so, with so much resistance to being pressured put in your face. Hilariously, if I'm being nice, polite, and agreeable to a girl, I'm 100% not even remotely interested in anything other than chatting whereas if I'm mocking your abilities (or lack thereof) I may be looking to see if you can hold your own. 

With Infantiles, I have to really water down this habit which I can do, but it makes the relationship seem a lot less serious to me. I can try to play "caregiver" by taking care of practical concerns or trying to keep everyday life in order but it's not like I'm going to get a kick out of jogging everyday at 5AM and making organic smoothies together afterwards - or whatever creature comforts the Si types enjoy doing.


----------



## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Figure said:


> Even bigger, and this is definitely paradoxical, but for me a sense of mutual "meanness" is absolutely required for me to take the relationship seriously. *I need to be able to feel comfortable being an outright asshole and the girl either playing back, or not caring/not being swayed by it. It's not a personal or vindictive type of mean, but more like being able to handle extremely sarcastic comments without being offended* - which Infantiles fundamentally _cannot_ do. Infantiles actually become very offended by this behavior, may take it personally, and tend to scold it for being "mean" whereas Aggressors will then engage directly (which I really like). SEE's get a kick out of making people feel the way they want them to feel, and acting the way I do offers them a challenge to doing so, with so much resistance to being pressured put in your face. Hilariously, if I'm being nice, polite, and agreeable to a girl, I'm 100% not even remotely interested in anything other than chatting whereas if I'm mocking your abilities (or lack thereof) I may be looking to see if you can hold your own.


Very interesting! Do you have actually examples of the bold comment? Namely because I have two definitions for asshole. One is the funny kind, the other is the kind that I'll likely have to kick their behinds.


----------



## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

ShieldMaiden said:


> Very interesting! Do you have actually examples of the bold comment? Namely because I have two definitions for asshole. One is the funny kind, the other is the kind that I'll likely have to kick their behinds.


So, I have a very close IEE friend who can appear very scattered when she is trying to get ready to go do something and gets kind of frazzled looking for things to take with her. I find this to be funny, and may even laugh at her for looking like a clueless bimbo, or hide something important to prolong the time I have to laugh. She actually gets really hurt by this and gives me this sulky, put out facial expression (which just makes me laugh more) whereas I would prefer if she actually got mad. 

Also, as Feeling-weak, I have a hard time managing my own emotions and have a habit of just going off on metaphor-laced tirades about the person of the day who is irritating me and how much I hate them, etc. Infantiles (especially Ne/Fi) will hear it out, but actually take that seriously and think they need to do something thoughtful to make me feel better (which is really really nice of them), whereas what I actually need is to be heard out, but afterwards have the topic shifted forcibly to something else that would make my mood better and establish a more stable relational kind of discussion. 

Does that make sense?


----------



## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

LOL @ organic smoothies. That cracked me up. xD

@_ShieldMaiden_

Se and Fi all over that. The second relationship you described sounded like the dude might have been a fellow "aggressor"? No idea. 

Btw, in romantic relationships with infantiles they often call me "agressive", whereas caregivers just find me a little hopeless and abrasive. They try to take care of things that I'm just not that focused on and then eventually they get pissed off at me because they think I'm being ungrateful.


----------



## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Figure said:


> So, I have a very close IEE friend who can appear very scattered when she is trying to get ready to go do something and gets kind of frazzled looking for things to take with her. I find this to be funny, and may even laugh at her for looking like a clueless bimbo, or hide something important to prolong the time I have to laugh. She actually gets really hurt by this and gives me this sulky, put out facial expression (which just makes me laugh more) whereas I would prefer if she actually got mad.


So evil. Lol. When I get frazzled and lose something, for example, I know good and well I've made a clueless bimbo of myself. I'm quite aware of my quirks so I don't get offended when someone makes a sarcastic comment. Or two. So long as they can take a couple quips in their direction as well. If you're easily offended, it's best to stay away from me.



> Also, as Feeling-weak, I have a hard time managing my own emotions and have a habit of just going off on metaphor-laced tirades about the person of the day who is irritating me and how much I hate them, etc. Infantiles (especially Ne/Fi) will hear it out, but actually take that seriously and think they need to do something thoughtful to make me feel better (which is really really nice of them), whereas what I actually need is to be heard out, but afterwards have the topic shifted forcibly to something else that would make my mood better and establish a more stable relational kind of discussion.


Yeah, definitely. I don't think I would be good with an Infantile. Seriously. Don't expect me to be terribly coddling. I rant about people I hate, too. It's more so I just want to complain about them rather than someone assuming I need cheering up. 



> Does that make sense?


Clear as a whistle.


----------



## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

@The Perfect Storm



> *Se and Fi all over that*. The second relationship you described sounded like the dude might have been a fellow "aggressor"? No idea.


Bolded comment. How so?

Yup. I think he might have been an SLE. We were a little perplexed about each other at times.



> Btw, in romantic relationships with infantiles they often call me "agressive", whereas caregivers just find me a little hopeless and abrasive. They try to take care of things that I'm just not that focused on and then eventually they get pissed off at me because they think I'm being ungrateful.


Hopeless, eh? It's funny, when I asked that one guy if he wanted to go to a movie with me, I was expecting/hoping for him to say yes rather than phrasing it asking if he REALLY wanted to go. XD


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart (Aug 18, 2015)

ShieldMaiden said:


> @The Perfect Storm
> 
> Yes. That sounds so perfect! You lucky duck. XD Never let your ILI go, okay? For me.
> @Fenix Wulfheart
> ...


Your second almost-relationship sounds like Aggressor with Aggressor.


----------



## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

@ShieldMaiden

will answer in PM as not to derail thread further! (probably tomorrow though as I need to cook dinner xD)


----------



## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

The Perfect Storm said:


> @ShieldMaiden
> 
> will answer in PM as not to derail thread further! (probably tomorrow though as I need to cook dinner xD)


Cooking? Ugh XD

It's cool though. I can wait!


----------



## Jamaia (Dec 17, 2014)

Thanks for answering, guys! I know I said you can talk about Aggressors too, so I can't really complain that you all are doing exactly that :tongue: . Thanks at @Figure and @The Perfect Storm for your posts. I understand and recognise what you are saying about infantiles. I mentioned pseudo-aggressor and that is what got us together, we've been together for many years now. I'll reply in more detail later.

Am I right, it seems like there is no more pre-existing material about these romance styles and dynamics? 
@Jeremy8419 The link you provided is the same information except shorter than what is found in WikiSocion (link in the OP) so yes, that is what I mean. I've read this too because these are what easily come up when looking for information: Socionics - the16types.info - Socionics Romancing Styles 

Do you guys think Socionics information about INTp-ENTp relationship in general (w/ or w/o Romance/Erotic style keywords) will take into account this victim-infantile conflict in one way or the other? It should, shouldn't it, if the Romance styles are derived from Ni and Ne?


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart (Aug 18, 2015)

Here is a link more detailed than the one Jeremy dropped:
Socionics - the16types.info - Socionics Romancing Styles

EDIT: Hah, you posted it first.


----------



## Jamaia (Dec 17, 2014)

@Fenix Wulfheart I did say I've searched! I mean it !

***

But ILE-ILI relationship things I haven't much looked into. Some but not much.

Errr... Except can't say that I'd _much looked into_ this Romance style thing either, but that is because it seems to be the same texts (links in this thread) over and over again. If there is anything that is not exactly the same, I'll be really happy if you can guide me to it.

For example it is mentioned that the short text by Gulenko doesn't go into detail, does anyone know more about the Comic and Tragic victim types mentioned?


----------



## Jamaia (Dec 17, 2014)

Ok real quick, I'll try to get into more detail by replying to posts by @The Perfect Storm and @Figure. What I'm looking for with this is finding the right words to describe the dynamics I guess.



The Perfect Storm said:


> @_ShieldMaiden_
> 
> Fwiw, before I met my current partner (ILI "victim"), I used to always end up dating either infantiles or caregivers. I think part of this was just due to me not really knowing what it as that I _really _wanted. I think I also used to try and act more like an "infantile" type because I assumed that was what men wanted. *faceplam*


Can you describe more how you'd pretend to be a Childlike type? Because even though I recognise these types, I don't really see how I am.



> When I first read the Socionics Romantic styles I was pretty sceptical. However, when I look at it now I can see how it does accurately describe certain patterns I've had in my relationships. The Agressor/victim dynamic (from a Gamma perspective) for me is very playful. There is a lot of tickling, poking, teasing each other, and playful name-calling, lol. It's very flirty. ILIs really appreciate the "force" of Se. In the past when I've been like that with infantiles or caregivers, they have sort of tried to get me to "tone it down", whereas Ni-types seem to be drawn to it and want more. It's very satisfying, lol.
> 
> EDIT: The best thing about Gamma "victims" is that it's so much fun breaking down their "walls." They won't make it easy for you either, it's always a challenge. They are a worthy "opponent". :blushed:


There is tickling, poking, he laughs like those tiny albino hedgehogs when they are tickled. But I don't necessarily appreciate it if he was as physical with me, and usually he is not. Also I never really know if it is actually ok.



Figure said:


> In my experience with Infantiles, the challenge has been initiating a more formal relationship.
> 
> Because it's Intuitive with Intuitive, there isn't an immediate formal or concrete initiative to anything more than sharing ideas or discussing topics in an offhand way, and someone needs to act out of their type in order for the relationship to be based on anything more than just "hanging out."


Well he was very decisive but in a non-threatening way, I think that is the pseudo-aggressor thing. I agree with you, that without it nothing would have come out of our relationship, I would've just let it slip.



> Even bigger, and this is definitely paradoxical, but for me a sense of mutual "meanness" is absolutely required for me to take the relationship seriously. I need to be able to feel comfortable being an outright asshole and the girl either playing back, or not caring/not being swayed by it. It's not a personal or vindictive type of mean, but more like being able to handle extremely sarcastic comments without being offended - which Infantiles fundamentally _cannot_ do. Infantiles actually become very offended by this behavior, may take it personally, and tend to scold it for being "mean" whereas Aggressors will then engage directly (which I really like).


This I see as him provoking me, and also him wanting me to see behind the "meanness" and understand where he is coming from, and I guess be more powerful than him. But I can at most take a caregiver approach to him I think, and that is only when there is no evident tension or hostility. If he is acting out I get confused and think why does he have to do this again. Every now and then I can deal with it, but if he does it often I start feeling he must deep down hate me to be like this. And then he is hurt and confused that I would think that of him.



> SEE's get a kick out of making people feel the way they want them to feel, and acting the way I do offers them a challenge to doing so, with so much resistance to being pressured put in your face. Hilariously, if I'm being nice, polite, and agreeable to a girl, I'm 100% not even remotely interested in anything other than chatting whereas if I'm mocking your abilities (or lack thereof) I may be looking to see if you can hold your own.


I feel like he is arrested to having to be nice and polite with me. However I'm not incredibly sensitive, the mocking just doesn't make me feel very special I guess. 



> With Infantiles, I have to really water down this habit which I can do, but it makes the relationship seem a lot less serious to me. I can try to play "caregiver" by taking care of practical concerns or trying to keep everyday life in order but it's not like I'm going to get a kick out of jogging everyday at 5AM and making organic smoothies together afterwards - or whatever creature comforts the Si types enjoy doing.


Hahaha, I wouldn't like that either, but then again I'm confused as to what are the things he wants me to make him do. And yes I can see he is trying to play the caregiver sometimes and I appreciate that.

********

I've got to go now, I'll continue this later... Anybody feel free to comment!


----------



## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Jamaia said:


> Can you describe more how you'd pretend to be a Childlike type? Because even though I recognise these types, I don't really see how I am.


Sure! ^_^

This is specifically related to a very short relationship/fling I had with a guy who I believe was an EII (possibly IEE)...

We met during our first year studying together at University. I had never really even noticed him before until one day he stated making conversation and playfully teasing me in a cute way after class. There was something about his awkwardness that drew me to him (I also grew more and more physically attracted to him as time went by as well). 

I remember finding it really difficult to read him. He had this pattern of being almost hot/cold with me, and at times I wondered if he might just be confused about his feelings. I am a pretty direct person, so I made it quite clear from the moment I considered him a potential partner, that I was game. When I did this he seemed to back off suddenly, almost as if he needed time to collect his thoughts and process his feelings about it all (which frustrated the hell out of me because we had been quite obviously flirting with each for about a month by this point. My patience was wearing thin). 

In the end we ended up having one of those relationships that wasn't quite "official" yet there was definitely something going on. I was always very taken in and attracted to his emotional honesty and creativity, but I was also very irritated by what I felt was passive-aggressive and dishonest behaviour. I think, at one point I actually started subconsciously acting like an xSTJ because the guy was so chaotic he needed someone to give him structure in his life. >_>

One day I had literally had enough of his odd behaviour and asked him up front what his problem was. I also gave him a bit of a lecture about how he needed to pull himself together if he was ever going to survive in the "real world" (probably hit his Se PoLR there >_<). This did NOT go down well. He ended up pushing me away and claiming that I had "aggression" issues and that I was too much of a lose canon for him. It was at that point that I realised we were simply incompatible and I ended it with him shortly after.

I think what he said got to me more than I realised (the part about me being aggressive, and a few indirect comments he made about me being more "masculine" than "feminine" when it came to affection and sexual stuff). After that relationship I went through a period of thinking I should be more goofy, cute, and "girly" if any guys were going to like me. That was more related to self esteem issues more than anything though. >_>

When I first got into typology I typed as an ENFP in the MBTI system and I did play up to that stereotype. I actually met my fiancée around this time (ILI), and not long after we started interacting I felt comfortable enough to reveal my "natural" self to him, and was surprised and pleased by his response (he loved it, lol xD).

My ILI calls me "cute" all the time and he always makes me feel super feminine and attractive (so I guess a lot of it comes down to perception and likes/dislikes). 

(Sorry for the tangent, no idea if I answered your question properly. )


----------



## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

The Perfect Storm said:


> I remember finding it really difficult to read him. He had this pattern of being almost hot/cold with me, and at times I wondered if he might just be confused about his feelings. *I am a pretty direct person, so I made it quite clear from the moment I considered him a potential partner, that I was game. When I did this he seemed to back off suddenly, almost as if he needed time to collect his thoughts and process his feelings about it all (which frustrated the hell out of me because we had been quite obviously flirting with each for about a month by this point. My patience was wearing thin).*


This reminds me... that first guy I was talking about, the guy that didn't want to do anything? I'll give him a name. We'll call him Mr. B. That was the mocking name my sister and I gave him. I remember asking him why he hadn't breathed a word of me wanting to be his legit girlfriend. He blew it off and tried to cover it up with a joke, it was obvious it was something he didn't want to talk about. this hurt me. Deeply. You see, when I'm considering dating someone, I'm thinking they would be someone legit. I don't do flings. When he decided he was still hooked on his ex, I was done with him. As I stated before, I literally severed my feelings for him. Thank goodness the night this happened, I had a martial arts class and was really able to get out my aggression. With me, hurt manifests in the form of anger. I didn't cry over him. I beat the shit out of a punching bag and well, gods protected the person I had as a sparring partner that night. XD



The Perfect Storm said:


> I think what he said got to me more than I realised (the part about me being aggressive, and a few indirect comments he made about me being more "masculine" than "feminine" when it came to affection and sexual stuff). After that relationship I went through a period of thinking I should be more goofy, cute, and "girly" if any guys were going to like me. That was more related to self esteem issues more than anything though. >_>


... this part hit home for me. In my younger years, boys made fun of me for being to rough/aggressive. I was the definition of a tomboy. I was also very outgoing. I never hesitated to engage in a person I thought was cool. My family said I even had a gift for being a strong leader. But, I got called a "dike" and a "lesbian" all the time by the boys in a mocking way (NOT that being a lesbian is an insult at all. But they intended it to hurt me.) They always favored the girly-girls. This is may be why I'm so socially awkward with my true self now. By my peers I was told I was "too much." I mean, I like makeup and stuff now because I think it's creative/pretty, but I really got into it because I thought that in order to be accepted I had to be girly. I stopped speaking up and kept telling myself I needed to tone it down. It's still sort of stuck around. But, I think I'm starting to slowly bring back me. 




The Perfect Storm said:


> My ILI calls me "cute" all the time and he always makes me feel super feminine and attractive (so I guess a lot of it comes down to perception and likes/dislikes).


Once again, darling, hold onto that. Something like that is hard to find. ♥


----------



## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

Jamaia said:


> Ok real quick, I'll try to get into more detail by replying to posts by @_The Perfect Storm_ and @_Figure_. What I'm looking for with this is finding the right words to describe the dynamics I guess.


Do you see a lot of your reactions within the intertype descriptions for Extinguishment? 

I noticed you asked earlier about how the different Romance Styles interact, and if there are any additional sources than what's been tossed around here. Unless there's something floating around in Russian, or something someone has translated from Russian to English that nobody has dug up yet, I don't _believe_ there is much more written on that topic. 

That said, there was a set of articles on actual sex styles between Dual types somewhere around here which may be an approximation of what you're looking for. I'll post it if I can find it.


----------



## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

ShieldMaiden said:


> ... this part hit home for me. In my younger years, boys made fun of me for being to rough/aggressive. I was the definition of a tomboy. I was also very outgoing. I never hesitated to engage in a person I thought was cool. My family said I even had a gift for being a strong leader. But, I got called a "dike" and a "lesbian" all the time by the boys in a mocking way (NOT that being a lesbian is an insult at all. But they intended it to hurt me.) They always favored the girly-girls. This is may be why I'm so socially awkward with my true self now. By my peers I was told I was "too much." I mean, I like makeup and stuff now because I think it's creative/pretty, but I really got into it because I thought that in order to be accepted I had to be girly. I stopped speaking up and kept telling myself I needed to tone it down. It's still sort of stuck around. But, I think I'm starting to slowly bring back me.


I relate to this problem but for different reasons. People complain about me being aloof, nerdy, grumpy, unemotional and a party pooper. I've also getting shit when others claim that it's impossible to know what I really think, to the point that some classmates thought that I was against moving a test, when I actually also wanted to shove it away.

I refuse to use makeup as I find it a waste of time to be honest. But really, it sucks that society tends to either push the girly-girl or the childlike stuff as the ideal, throwing anything else under the bus by labeling it as weird, macho like and other insults. Thanks to this BS I've avoided dating like a pest, besides of being busy with university. So while Se types (both beta and gamma) may get crap for being too direct, NTs and STs in general tend to get shit for being too logical, because women are supossed to have no ability of reasoning at all.


----------



## Jamaia (Dec 17, 2014)

Figure said:


> Do you see a lot of your reactions within the intertype descriptions for Extinguishment?
> 
> I noticed you asked earlier about how the different Romance Styles interact, and if there are any additional sources than what's been tossed around here. Unless there's something floating around in Russian, or something someone has translated from Russian to English that nobody has dug up yet, I don't _believe_ there is much more written on that topic.
> 
> That said, there was a set of articles on actual sex styles between Dual types somewhere around here which may be an approximation of what you're looking for. I'll post it if I can find it.


Yeah, the Extinguishment is very accurate too. We don't always work very smoothly together, and especially if there are other people involved we can get snarky with each other if we don't deliberately try to be cautious about it. And that is very different from how we interact when we are alone. I liked the descriptions by V.V. Gulenko. But it seems to me like this difference in Romance style is a different thing.


----------



## Rabid Seahorse (Mar 10, 2015)

Well my insights aren't going to be great as most of my relationships were short-lived but I do have experience with IEI's and ILI's and in both cases they come off kinda paranoid. A lot of times they over-think things or when there's a part of my lifestyle that gets on their nerves, they wait forever to tell me and that irks me. The most passionate relationship I had was with an IEI but again, those issues came up. Like "I'm scared you're gonna do something rash and end up _______". I've had a few experiences with SEI's and although I never had those issues, the romance kinda cooled off quickly. 



Victim-Childlike is supposedly the worst type of romance dynamic. I don't completely agree because as both are N types, I related more to Victims than Caregivers or Aggressors, but like any relationship there are hurdles to overcome. My advice for the Childlike partner would be to be more decisive and action-oriented; for the Victim it would be to be more direct with your relationship concerns.


----------



## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Rabid Seahorse said:


> Well my insights aren't going to be great as most of my relationships were short-lived but I do have experience with IEI's and ILI's and in both cases they come off kinda paranoid. A lot of times they over-think things or when there's a part of my lifestyle that gets on their nerves, they wait forever to tell me and that irks me. The most passionate relationship I had was with an IEI but again, those issues came up. Like "*I'm scared you're gonna do something rash and end up _______".* I've had a few experiences with SEI's and although I never had those issues, the romance kinda cooled off quickly.


Bolded comment. What do you mean by that? As in, they are afraid you will leave them or something?


----------



## SheWolf (Apr 17, 2015)

Mordred Phantom said:


> I relate to this problem but for different reasons. People complain about me being aloof, nerdy, grumpy, unemotional and a party pooper. I've also getting shit when others claim that it's impossible to know what I really think, to the point that some classmates thought that I was against moving a test, when I actually also wanted to shove it away.
> 
> I refuse to use makeup as I find it a waste of time to be honest. But really, it sucks that society tends to either push the girly-girl or the childlike stuff as the ideal, throwing anything else under the bus by labeling it as weird, macho like and other insults. Thanks to this BS I've avoided dating like a pest, besides of being busy with university. So while Se types (both beta and gamma) may get crap for being too direct, NTs and STs in general tend to get shit for being too logical, because women are supossed to have no ability of reasoning at all.


Yeah. I've heard some Enneagram 5's complain about that sort of thing too.

I was bullied because I wasn't feminine. I was loud, raucous, and rough-and-tumble. They would've thought I was pretty cool if I was in a male's body, I bet. Some of them ended up knowing me on a personal level and found that I was actually a really cool person. I consider myself very well-rounded now. I can be rough as any alpha male type but I can also be ethereally feminine. I love being both.


----------



## Rabid Seahorse (Mar 10, 2015)

ShieldMaiden said:


> Bolded comment. What do you mean by that? As in, they are afraid you will leave them or something?


If I'd say I was going to a party they'd think something bad's gonna happen like I'd end up driving home or get in trouble somehow. They'd sometimes think the relationship wasn't worth it all of a sudden so I guess that's kinda on the same page with being afraid I'd leave.


----------



## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

ShieldMaiden said:


> Yeah. I've heard some Enneagram 5's complain about that sort of thing too.
> 
> I was bullied because I wasn't feminine. I was loud, raucous, and rough-and-tumble. They would've thought I was pretty cool if I was in a male's body, I bet. Some of them ended up knowing me on a personal level and found that I was actually a really cool person. I consider myself very well-rounded now. I can be rough as any alpha male type but I can also be ethereally feminine. I love being both.


Damned bullies have to pick on anyone that isn't seen as 'normal'. I also had trouble with them but for being boring, a nerd, sucking balls at sports and having too good marks. Luckily I met people that got along with me at college, and most of my friends are likely gamma or delta. I'm almost sure that one is IEE, and she studies even if she's braindead or extremely tired. Reading about weak Si issues reminded me a lot of her issues managing her time and overloading herself with way too many tasks.

I also suspect that I wouldn't get that much crap if I was a dude, as at least they have a free pass for being grumpy and aloof.


----------



## Jamaia (Dec 17, 2014)

Figure said:


> Also, as Feeling-weak, I have a hard time managing my own emotions and have a habit of just going off on metaphor-laced tirades about the person of the day who is irritating me and how much I hate them, etc. Infantiles (especially Ne/Fi) will hear it out, but actually take that seriously and think they need to do something thoughtful to make me feel better (which is really really nice of them), whereas what I actually need is to be heard out, but afterwards have the topic shifted forcibly to something else that would make my mood better and establish a more stable relational kind of discussion.


Hey, I actually exercised this yesternight when he got home all agitated about this injust thing that had happened to him. I sat down to listen to him (not paying a lot of attention but still), and after one round (I'm sure it would've gone on for many more rounds and he would've gotten really worked up about the issue) I got up and told him we've got things to do, he'll feed the baby while I prepare the food and then we will all jadajadajada. I was expecting him to bring the agitating topic up again as soon as there is a quiet moment, but he didn't, he was a happy camper feeding the baby and seemed to remain on a good mood. Until later, when a friend called him, he was back going on and on about the issue, but I got him out of it by telling him (not asking) to take care of the kids who are spreading soap all over the bathroom. He actually said mid-sentence to his friend: "Oops, gotta go now, I got ordered back in line." What a victim! But he wasn't upset about it, he stayed with the kids and was very calm and attentive and actually initiative, cleaned up the bathroom too. After the kids were asleep he got another phone call about the issue, I told him to stop it it's late, he didn't so I just went to bed, but surprisingly quickly after that he ended the call and was apologetic about it and actually talked about my feelings, which is super-unusual. (I wasn't upset about it at all, it was an experiment, but he thought I was angry at him.)

This was different from normal. Normally I probably would have thought that this is clearly such an important subject to him, I should show that I am interested by engaging him in a conversation about it and help him by taking care of most things. My expectation: He'll notice and appreciate the effort, he will figure out a solution to this issue, and he will try to focus on helping me as much as he can. 

And by the time he was on the phone leaving the kids alone to wreck the bathroom, I normally wouldn't have interrupted but I would've thought it must be something really urgent because he is leaving me to deal with this mess, so I'll take care of the kids and let him have the phone conversation in peace, because certainly he will notice it is inconvenient for me and he will end the phone call as soon as he possibly can and come back to help me. 

But in reality what would've happened is that his phone conversation would've gone on and on, he would've vaguely noticed I'm handling the kids and he would've maybe gone off to do other things, and I would've been really disappointed that he thinks all that is more urgent but then I would've thought that he must be really tired so... back to I'll help him out and let him rest and then he'll feel better and help me in turn. Or he would've vaguely noticed I'm getting annoyed for some unknown reason and he would've popped in to ask for instructions which would've annoyed me much more (because don't ask me to take the time to think about and explain to you how you can help me step by step, when you're supposed to deal with this and I'm the one helping you!).



Rabid Seahorse said:


> Well my insights aren't going to be great as most of my relationships were short-lived but I do have experience with IEI's and ILI's and in both cases they come off kinda paranoid. A lot of times they over-think things or when there's a part of my lifestyle that gets on their nerves, they wait forever to tell me and that irks me. The most passionate relationship I had was with an IEI but again, those issues came up. Like "I'm scared you're gonna do something rash and end up _______". I've had a few experiences with SEI's and although I never had those issues, the romance kinda cooled off quickly.


This hasn't happened with us. Unless it is the same thing that was described in the Extinguishing pairs, the introvert assuming the extravert's projects will fail, nothing good will come out of them. 



> Victim-Childlike is supposedly the worst type of romance dynamic. I don't completely agree because as both are N types, I related more to Victims than Caregivers or Aggressors, but like any relationship there are hurdles to overcome. My advice for the Childlike partner would be to be more decisive and action-oriented; for the Victim it would be to be more direct with your relationship concerns.


If this is the worst there is, that would mean relationships in general are a stroll in the park, on a sunny afternoon, on a Segway. This isn't so bad, in my opinion. There may be other opinions ofc.

I think that is good advice, and I see I'm behaving more like an Aggressor with him. Damn it.


----------



## Jamaia (Dec 17, 2014)

Oh and another thing just in, he was reading useless news on his mobile just a moment ago, I went and took it away from him because he was supposed to be doing some other stuff, and he seemed delighted and happy and did not try to get it back! This is scorcery!


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

I've been discussing this with @Goldberry because I've been trying to understand how an IEE works at work, and one thing that really bothers me is how he's so ambiguous in how he expresses himself concerning relationships, often leaving things up for interpretation. I often make quite cutting sarcastic remarks and he may react to them by trying to joke back at me, but usually they're done in a light that seems to suggest that perhaps I went a little too far and he often seems to try to set the tone to a more light-hearted manner. It's difficult to describe because I never remember any concrete examples of what he does or what he says, but I suppose that from one perspective, his commentary can seem a little passive-aggressive. I may for example leave some snarky remark about how I don't like X, but he often shifts the focus away to some potential positive aspect of X which for the lack of a better way to phrase it, really softens the blow. To clarify; when I mean by softening the blow, I often make snarky remarks by commenting on how I could feel but I do not e.g. I really love Y about X, when I mean it the other way around. He understands what I'm trying to express but he doesn't really jump on the train of being snarky back but instead blows it off with something positive rather than being harsh in return. 

In general, what happens is that I wonder if he's secretly disapproving of what I just said, but because he won't explicitly tell me that he liked or disliked it etc., it's way too ambiguous and up for interpretation. Apparently this would be favorable in the Si-Ne dyads, because that way you can avoid conflict or something.


----------



## infinity paradox (Dec 7, 2013)

@Figure


Figure said:


> In my experience with Infantiles, the challenge has been initiating a more formal relationship.
> 
> Because it's Intuitive with Intuitive, there isn't an immediate formal or concrete initiative to anything more than sharing ideas or discussing topics in an offhand way, and someone needs to act out of their type in order for the relationship to be based on anything more than just "hanging out."
> 
> Even bigger, and this is definitely paradoxical, but for me a sense of mutual "meanness" is absolutely required for me to take the relationship seriously. I need to be able to feel comfortable being an outright asshole and the girl either playing back, or not caring/not being swayed by it. It's not a personal or vindictive type of mean, but more like being able to handle extremely sarcastic comments without being offended - which Infantiles fundamentally _cannot_ do. Infantiles actually become very offended by this behavior, may take it personally, and tend to scold it for being "mean" whereas Aggressors will then engage directly (which I really like). SEE's get a kick out of making people feel the way they want them to feel, and acting the way I do offers them a challenge to doing so, with so much resistance to being pressured put in your face. Hilariously, if I'm being nice, polite, and agreeable to a girl, I'm 100% not even remotely interested in anything other than chatting whereas if I'm mocking your abilities (or lack thereof) I may be looking to see if you can hold your own.


Very interesting. I do a very similar sort of thing by being sarcastic and even "dickish" to the people I like more, because I need the people who are close to me to be able to joke around and have a relationship where we are at least somewhat able to take out our cruelty on one another in a way that demonstrates true trust and closeness. (I guess in my opinion everyone has a bit of brutality and I prefer for it to poke out to the surface instead of finding it buried under 10 layers of crap later on.) 

However, I also tend to want to care for and be cared for in a gentle, almost childlike way at times. I have no idea of my type at all or if I'd register as a childlike type but I remember on one type of test (BDSM/sexual) I got boy/girl play in my top 5 (not top 2, though) and I would say this is true and permeates into my self as a person. I like cartoons, dress-up, being pampered (emotionally, not in a stereotypical way like needing to have doors opened and chairs taken out or getting my hair and nails done or money spent on me, but REAL stuff like making sure I am fed, and so on). I have to be able to cry and rage in front of the person who loves me, because while I sometimes have righteous anger, I don't often show my underbelly to most people. 

I wonder where that leaves me, heh, or if it's hypocritical. I DO accept both readily in others. I'd had my boyfriend lash out at me for something that wasn't my fault and I'd yelled back in the moment but then later I might be fine while he laments that he was mean to me and I'm all like "eh, I already felt this and moved on." Other times I might cry over a mean comment and they might get pissed or annoyed that I was so sensitive, and I might stay in that state (and need to withdraw from a harsher type of person for a while) or I might cry for a minute and be over it, while they are puzzled and I go back into cynical sarcasm. I don't mean in a crazy, manic way but sometimes it's that quick: I was feeling sensitive, you hurt my feelings, now it's over, as long as you are sorry or are more careful next time (even sometimes if you aren't if I rationally figure out that I was being over-sensitive) I am capable of bouncing right back. If I'm in a regular mood, I might simply bounce back or show calculated rage, at times with the need to inflict something back if I've been hurt but feel predatory. At times this has scared me but I think it serves me well with the right type of person who can appreciate my complexity.


----------



## infinity paradox (Dec 7, 2013)

Mordred Phantom said:


> I relate to this problem but for different reasons. People complain about me being aloof, nerdy, grumpy, unemotional and a party pooper. I've also getting shit when others claim that it's impossible to know what I really think, to the point that some classmates thought that I was against moving a test, when I actually also wanted to shove it away.
> 
> I refuse to use makeup as I find it a waste of time to be honest. But really, it sucks that society tends to either push the girly-girl or the childlike stuff as the ideal, throwing anything else under the bus by labeling it as weird, macho like and other insults. Thanks to this BS I've avoided dating like a pest, besides of being busy with university. So while Se types (both beta and gamma) may get crap for being too direct, NTs and STs in general tend to get shit for being too logical, because women are supossed to have no ability of reasoning at all.


I relate to this so much :frustrating: I know I use Se but not exactly in what context, lots of men and women have thought I was "too" much or "too aggressive" even though I've rarely if not never chased someone down, usually it is someone who expresses interest in me and I'm like "Well there's this, this and this about me and it's really intense and strong" and them going "oh yeah, I love that don't worry" and later down the line they don't :bored: 

I also am usually more logical in my reasoning than most people I have been with, and I think especially men who are not educated on these subjects tend to place women as the "emotional reactors" by default without managing to think about motivation or psychology much. Annoying!


----------



## Jamaia (Dec 17, 2014)

Update, it seems like this approach is working. He seems much more relaxed and happy, and has spoken about _feelings_ three times within less than a week, which is a lot.
@Entropic I don't know if I understand what kind of interaction you mean, but sometimes when my ILI complains about something, I get anxious, feel like it's my fault, I should fix this issue, why else would he bring this to me. I think it's the childlike-caretaker interpretation of the situation, if someone is clearly unhappy, that person is assuming a childlike status and expecting others to be the caretakers. I would need some more affirmation that everything is ok, this burst is not actual aggression towards me, and ILI does not naturally do that because they don't want to soften the blow. ENTPs can complain and be snarky, but I think we do it a bit differently and follow it with diffusive elements so that others surely get that it's a joke and we don't expect anyone to get worried. I don't know how IEEs work though. I think the IEE is trying hard to balance your bursts. Maybe if you want him to be snarky back, you could try to be more positive when you're not being snarky. I know it's not ideal to you, but it might make him more comfortable and tolerant of your snarky bursts.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Jamaia said:


> Update, it seems like this approach is working. He seems much more relaxed and happy, and has spoken about _feelings_ three times within less than a week, which is a lot.
> @Entropic I don't know if I understand what kind of interaction you mean, but sometimes when my ILI complains about something, I get anxious, feel like it's my fault, I should fix this issue, why else would he bring this to me. I think it's the childlike-caretaker interpretation of the situation, if someone is clearly unhappy, that person is assuming a childlike status and expecting others to be the caretakers. I would need some more affirmation that everything is ok, this burst is not actual aggression towards me, and ILI does not naturally do that because they don't want to soften the blow. ENTPs can complain and be snarky, but I think we do it a bit differently and follow it with diffusive elements so that others surely get that it's a joke and we don't expect anyone to get worried. I don't know how IEEs work though. I think the IEE is trying hard to balance your bursts. Maybe if you want him to be snarky back, you could try to be more positive when you're not being snarky. I know it's not ideal to you, but it might make him more comfortable and tolerant of your snarky bursts.


Well he's more goofy and carefree in a way, but he won't be direct or blunt. He's also terrible about taking initiative and action and like many other Ne bases I've met they often suggest a lot of things to do, but they don't so to say, make you do it. There are a lot of Se bases and egos in general at my other office where both of us work and you can tell the difference because they are much more "grabby", fixating on goals or things to strive towards that should be attained. He understands it but doesn't really care for it. I can get quite motivated if there are tangible things to do and goals to strive towards as I've always been a very competitive person; he seems to value being productive but it's more at his own pace at a comfortable level. Both of us discuss productivity a lot at work though, and he can be snarky back but as I said, he often seems to try to soften the blows.


----------



## inabox (Oct 3, 2015)

Ah, my eldest sister and her husband are in an extinguishment relationship, they have kids. She's an Ni-INTp and he's an Ne-ENTp; I suppose what makes them work is well ... some of it is convenience (second marriages for both), chemistry and well ... idk honestly, I look at a lot of marriages and think that well, even if you're an atheist, you gotta admit some things are meant to be (for those who believe in divinity, it's because of God; I think my areligious fellow people would think that it is because of randomness, which yaaaay, Ne).

@Jamaia , I know you made this thread ages ago but I suppose you wouldn't mind my observations. There are certain things that make my sibling's relationship work:

- support for each other: logistical, financial, otherwise
- allowing each other freedom and independence, especially with regards to career
- knowing that they cannot do some things together and thus not pushing each other to become what they normally are not

Things they could obviously work on:

- my sister has that problem that I've seen jackasses with Fe polr have (that includes my duals) like yes, I know you don't like it when somebody does something you don't like but don't have outbursts in group gatherings; the rest of us have feelings, too and we're not always in the mood to take inferior Se displays in stride. She has learned with time not to snap at someone when we're hanging out in groups but she needs to make more of an effort; he has Fe HA and he's hurt by her displays of brashness especially in settings where we're smiling, taking photos. Also, she acts like his need for Si (birthday get togethers) doesn't matter which upsets him, she tries to make it up to him but an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

- my BIL needs to learn that my sister (who sometimes won't speak up because idk victim issues) needs to have her Fi respected and not have to conform to his standards of Fe, which are frankly speaking often superficial and stupid. Yes, you think just because we're keeping our voices down and we're not making faces means that we have to carry out the group agenda because that's what will keep us _all_ from making faces, but really sweetheart, it's not that simple. He has issues with understanding when he's crossing a line (you're not always funny, Fi polrs) but he needs to learn that just because something is not important according to his own/'general' standards doesn't mean that it's not relevant or yes, even sacred. I think _some_ ExTps _sometimes _need to rethink their Fe standards eg don't expect someone to be nice to you after you've been a dick to them (loljk doesn't fix everything) and you're not doing the world a major favour by being decent, especially in situations where your involvement was unnecessary and probably self serving.

(Wow, I sound very mean  but there are obviously many virtues I see in all types.)


----------



## Jamaia (Dec 17, 2014)

@inabox much appreciated! Sounds like us! How long have your sister and her husband been together?


----------



## inabox (Oct 3, 2015)

My personal experience with victims, which I am relating for the benefit of posterity, before it is mercifully burned down to ashes in the apocalypse:

I've dated an Ni-INFp (former fiance, yay shitty love life) and a Te-INTp.

The Ni-INFp made me want to tear my hair out because I think they need serious Se-Ti discipline sometimes (make of that what you will) and I feel very, very, very stressed when someone wants/needs very consistent Se from me. I can forget the pain I went through of having to do Se things if you appreciate me (like this one Ni-INTp lady friend) but I guess because Se was his DS function he kept asking it from me (ditching me every time he felt there was a power imbalance between us, hello my ex's wretched 2 fix, expecting me to uproot my life to be with, push and pull, no I'll move back for you, you move here for me, blah blah) and honestly, I couldn't tolerate it towards the end. Also, asking Fe from me? Eww; look yes I talk about my feelings but it's not because I *deeply* care about shared emotional atmospheres, it's because often I'm expecting Ti demonstrative/Te to tell me how to get out this; it's solid, practical advice, silence, tight hugs, ice cream or all four for this Fi-IEE. Fe demonstrative is often just me discharging discomfort/joy/what have you, it doesn't always have a deeper meaning. There is nothing like an extinguishment to make you yell out: OH MY GOD, IS THIS HOW PEOPLE FEEL ABOUT ME? I WANT TO APOLOGIZE TO EVERYONE I HAVE EVER INTERACTED WITH EVEN IF IT WAS A MERE 20 SECONDS.'

There were similar problems with the Te-INTp guy I dated in that I believe we irritated each other every time we asked for the other's DS. Funnily enough, I have read threads in the past where the faults of ENFPs were listed by our mirages and sometimes, it would make me sad 'LIKE HOMG WHAI DO WE SUCK, WHAI R WE FOREVER ALONEEE'; now, though, I'm like, 'Oh you think *we* have problems like verbal diarrhoea, WAIT till you hear all the things we don't tell you ^_^.' My relationship with the Te-INTp ended the way the second relationship did in this Stratievskaya article (Socionics - the16types.info - Mirage Relations INTp and ENFp by Stratiyevskaya). I don't know if I would have had as intense dislike for a Te-INTp of another enneagram tritype: he was 8-5-2 sp/so and generally I've wanted to smack around people of that tritype, my duals, included (why you guys, we both 8 fixes, how can you suck this much? And not even in a good way :'( ). I remember snapping at the Te-INTp a lot towards the end because I didn't like being stranded (in that hey I'd like to move on if you aren't interested in anything more since I don't have any interest in being d**ked around). He, in turn, instead of ending things in a clear manner (he'd make himself pitiable to prevent me from losing interest, boo hoo, I am tragic), posted a bitchy comment about me on FB about how I was annoying, animalistic (v. v. flattered, lol) and that God gave us all reason so we that we could act civilized (fantastic coming from someone who had an incredibly superficial understanding of decorum). I didn't mind being rejected, I'm all for individual choices and preferences; but being kept on a leash and then being treated like that after rightfully wanting to know where things were going ... eh, shrugs. Plus, the pettiness of some member of the Ni-Se quadra is often repulsive to me; yes what a big man/woman you are with your childish BS, how impressed I am that you possess the maturity and the civilization to think daily interactions are war. I (now, after embarrassments, lol) have zero time for conman like tactics (which some Ni guys have).

I like playing around with my role. I enjoy makeup, swimming etc but having to be super creative (when do you want Se from me? how much Se do you want? what am I doing wrong and how can I change it?) with that is not my forte. My sister and my Ni-INTp friend both want Se from me when they are well ... let's say, debating with me. And then it's kind of hurtful because I believe in Ne-Si cooperation and although, Se is not necessarily a destructive force, I find that those who use it in the context of arguments sometimes those who use it forget the damage they can do. And no they were not expecting Te from me, they weirdly expect force or determination from me and I was like whuuuuh? O_O

I do find victims weirdly confusing, except for the Fe-ENFj bestie I have but hey, I haven't fantasized about f**king her ... much. I had a huge crush on this Te-ENTj who appeared to be super uncomfortable with my advances (hi, poor role function) and our mutual Se-SEE male friend would be like, really, him? because of masculinity issues (the aggressor friend thought my victim crush was strange with his awkwardness about initiating things with ladies). He'd be really rude with me and he'd blush and look away; honestly, I thought he didn't like me at all. But for some reason, he'd always knock me on FB. Years later after my crush had died down, he'd aggressively flirt with me (which is kind of weirdly cute, I can't take HA Se very seriously most of the time); once, we were speaking to each other and heavily flirting, when he asked me if I ever liked him for real, he backed off then and was like, nooo, I'm just kidding and I was like, no, I liked you for real. It was sweet. The point of this story is, I understand now that he may have wanted a more aggressor stance from me (which is strange, because hey I probably did everything short of sitting on his lap). Which you know, I wish he had asked, lol.

I think a relationship of benefits is smoother than mirage relationships (I have read accounts of happy, lasting marriages between INTjs and INFps and ENTjs and ENFps).

For all my complaints about Victim guys, I honestly find the Se needs of a Victim type cute sometimes; I think I jokingly called it 'subby' in front of my friends and it's weird but sometimes they do bring out my role in a way that's not unpleasant *coughs*Idliketoroughyouupnom*coughs* . Ni dom victims I find more irritating (I'd say they think likewise) whereas Ni auxes I like better (*coughs*IcouldroughyouupheyIdonttakeyouseriouslyatalllol*coughs). Ni doms have this thing where they can temporarily forget that the world exists outside their head; it can be crushing to those around them. Similarly, I (royal I, royal we?) think I (Ne doms) get on their nerves because of our impatience. Ironically, Se types are more patient in similar situations, which is pretty beautiful if you think about it .

I don't really fancy dating another victim, even a Gamma victim, because I feel like they try to control me (I assume the feeling is mutual); their romancing style often creeps me out (see: Gamma Quadra: The Complex of Tied Hands by Stratiyevskaya - Wikisocion). As I've told friends about these situations, 'Use things, not people. I'm not a toy you can play with.' What aggressors naturally see as fascinating and exciting, I think of as wearisome and I move on; gratifying, lateral thinking \O/. What aggressors perceive as unique, I (I meaning infantiles) find redundant; whom they see as needing their worthy protection, I see as someone warranting pity. It's ... strange that they perceive my relationship with caregivers in a similarly disapproving light.

(Furthermore, victims are generally frustrated by our need for 'care' ; we get pissed off when this ethereal-ish person who needs so much of our energy, I know infantiles are perceived as needy and entitled but I find that victims, themselves, can be so entitled like it should always be the other person's, who is usually more interested, responsibility to begin or end a relationship, that too respectfully.)

(If I sound mean, I'm not, really. I think it goes without saying I have <3 for the Ni-Se quadra, even if it's just for the ones whom I love.)

(On a sidenote, I enjoy the assholery for Gamma Victims if we are close; I have on many occasions told my INTp ladyfriend that if anyone else said the shit you do, I would have hated them. We do bitch on each other a lot and it has improved with time, the meanness exchange that is <3 . )

It's not obviously not always terrible; victim/infantile relationships that is (Andy Samberg/Joanna Newsom make a very beautiful ENTp/INFp couple).


While it seems that benefit relationships between victims and caregivers go better than those of mirages, I think there can be something beautiful about your illusionaries.* Yes, it's disappointing and disheartening that expectations crash. Mirages have that thing that reminds me of my extinguishers: disappointment in expectations and lack of fulfillment regarding needs; however, where my extinguishers are different is that they will do what I had expected only later than I had wanted them too and sadly by that time it is often too late; they are like my semiduals, only worse.

My illusionaries are especially beautiful when they really do care about me. For me, personally, I value shared judging functions because it is the language of reconciliation and relief after devastating arguments. (Underneath the spoiler, you'll find a lot of sappy, irrelevant, pointless nonsense that details the bittersweetness of mirage relationships, and hi, I am lonely and pathetic.)


* *




Yes, there is bitter disappointment. Castles turn to dust and blow away with the wind. You want to leave but where do you go now? You gave it everything you could but it was never appreciated; it was never enough. But then. They'll do something. Here you thought you were all alone, abandoned for so very long in the time of your dire need, but what's this rhythm of weary feet? You'll turn around and find yourself catching your breath. It is. Them. You had gone the extra mile for them. And you see that they have come the extra mile for you; you expected a minute, you received a month; later, when you tell others this, you will say that you had received a millenia. They had observed the sweat on your brow and now they have gifted you with the blood on their feet. You want to, long to wipe each other clean. Somehow, all that ugliness of exerting your role function is forgotten, even if temporarily. It was ... worth it, though ... at least, that's how it seems (no feels!) for now. Your understanding is renewed and it is fragile, you don't know how the long this reversal of fortune will last ... but there is here and there is now. Your hands join together; you leave behind anxiety in the anticipation of meeting hope.




*due credit and reference goes to this article: (http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/165-Classification-of-Intertype-Relations)


----------



## inabox (Oct 3, 2015)

@Jamaia , they've been together for around 9 years  .


----------



## inabox (Oct 3, 2015)

* I meant benefit relationships between victims and infantiles, where the irrational (and ethical) partner is the benefactor

(I've heard of some successful INTp/INFj relationships and some that ended (or haha, worse, continued) quite sadly; have not heard of as many ENTp/ENFj relationships, hmm ...


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart (Aug 18, 2015)

Oh dear god. This post is...so much. I think if I heard you saying this out loud in real life, I would be seriously struggling to follow it. As it stands, it took me 25 minutes of reading and rereading before I felt like I understood all the things said here. You...you can certainly communicate a lot really really quickly. 

It sounds like you have seen a lot of the intertype theory at work. Would you say that intertype is more accurate for romantic relationships than for friendships, and if so - by how much? And in what ways? I have been trying to investigate it, but alas the roadblock of not being sure of the types of others makes this difficult.

Could you clarify this for me?


inabox said:


> but I guess because Se was his DS function he kept asking it from me (ditching me every time he felt there was a power imbalance between us, hello my ex's wretched 2 fix, expecting me to uproot my life to be with, push and pull, no I'll move back for you, you move here for me, blah blah) and honestly, I couldn't tolerate it towards the end.


What is "ditching me every time he felt a power imbalance"? He like, literally left you stranded somewhere? Disappeared into his head? I'm confused.



inabox said:


> Plus, the pettiness of some member of the Ni-Se quadra is often repulsive to me; yes what a big man/woman you are with your childish BS, how impressed I am that you possess the maturity and the civilization to think daily interactions are war. I (now, after embarrassments, lol) have zero time for conman like tactics (which some Ni guys have).


Heh. I would argue that an interaction is a lot like a war. Everyone has their agenda, even if the agenda is just to survive, or to just get along with others. Its easy to describe it in terms of seeking, and to seek is to exert upon the world. Is it that it bothers you to see things in that way, or...that it bothers you when it is manipulative?



inabox said:


> My sister and my Ni-INTp friend both want Se from me when they are well ... let's say, debating with me. And then it's kind of hurtful because I believe in Ne-Si cooperation and although, Se is not necessarily a destructive force, I find that those who use it in the context of arguments sometimes those who use it forget the damage they can do. And no they were not expecting Te from me, they weirdly *expect force or determination from me* and I was like whuuuuh? O_O


I fucking love to debate with people. No one ever wants to take it all the way though. People invariably back down. Meh. I try to keep quiet these days, let people debate each other and throw in a comment here and there. I can keep it going if I don't get too expressive, but as soon as I throw myself in fully, people back down. Kinda sucks. Last time I had a good debate was with someone I think may be xSTP. Heh. Online formats are much easier to get a real debate going, I think. 

Especially yes to the bold. If someone is not determined enough to stand up for their beliefs, then why debate them? It's strange to me. I don't always have the energy or drive to do that myself, but if it truly matters I can buck up and do it anyway. :/



inabox said:


> Years later after my crush had died down, he'd aggressively flirt with me (which is kind of weirdly cute, I can't take HA Se very seriously most of the time); once, we were speaking to each other and heavily flirting, when he asked me if I ever liked him for real, he backed off then and was like, nooo, I'm just kidding and I was like, no, I liked you for real. It was sweet. The point of this story is, I understand now that he may have wanted a more aggressor stance from me (which is strange, because hey I probably did everything short of sitting on his lap). Which you know, I wish he had asked, lol.


OMG this story is soooo cute! I wish you'd gone for it - or on second thought, maybe not, given your experiences dating Ni types. Hrm. Too bad. 



inabox said:


> Ni doms have this thing where they can temporarily forget that the world exists outside their head; it can be crushing to those around them. Similarly, I (royal I, royal we?) think I (Ne doms) get on their nerves because of our impatience. Ironically, Se types are more patient in similar situations, which is pretty beautiful if you think about it .


...yes. And when being in the head for a long time translates to not calling loved ones, it can breed alienation. Sometimes...just so distant.



inabox said:


> Furthermore, victims are generally frustrated by our need for 'care' ; we get pissed off when this ethereal-ish person who needs so much of our energy, I know infantiles are perceived as needy and entitled but I find that victims, themselves, can be so entitled like it should always be the other person's, who is usually more interested, responsibility to begin or end a relationship, that too respectfully.


I don't much care for caregiver types, personally. Particularly the persistent ones. Here, have a biscuit. Want some chocolate? I'm making sandwiches, how many do you want? You got enough sleep, right? Well we need to get that wrapped up right away And I'm over here muttering "...I can take care of myself. I'm OK. I got it. I'm not hungry. No, really, I'm not hungry. Just...leave me alone. please. Go away, dammit." 

I know several people I expect are Ne doms or auxes. Your verbal barrage post I am quoting reminds me of them XD. I can say, sometimes they overwhelm me. I feel like sometimes they need more energy from than I can give. Like a friend of mine who reads dozens of magic the gathering cards at me for hours, expecting input for each one, and how they are all awesome because of how they can be used with this other card....It's wearing. I can keep up, but it slowly irritates more and more.



inabox said:


> For me, personally, I value shared judging functions because it is the language of reconciliation and relief after devastating arguments.


This is a fascinating piece of input, actually. Do you think relationships with shared judging functions go over better overall? What about with different perception functions, though? If a person sees the world in a way fundamentally different from yours but has the same judging functions, I'd imagine they can communicate to you how they see it, but that breeds understanding more than it does trust or acceptance. I'd imagine some compatibility of belief structures would be needed to bridge the gulf, such as sharing more traits in the theory (like Process/Result) or having similar pasts.



inabox said:


> I don't know if I would have had as intense dislike for a Te-INTp of another enneagram tritype: he was 8-5-2 sp/so and generally I've wanted to smack around people of that tritype, my duals, included (why you guys, we both 8 fixes, how can you suck this much? And not even in a good way :'( ).


Do you think there could be intertype of Enneagram? I haven't studied the 'gram much.

Some other notes:


inabox said:


> Fe demonstrative is often just me discharging discomfort/joy/what have you, it doesn't always have a deeper meaning.


Emotional expression that lacks a deeper meaning? That's heresy!


----------



## inabox (Oct 3, 2015)

@Fenix Wulfheart, hey there!  Well, buddy regarding the IEI ex thing and how he left me stranded or whatever, well, the details are things that I don't want to talk about in the forum, which I know is totally hypocritical and logically inconsistent (haha oh  ). If you are interested in learning more about my dynamics, I can PM you, in which case let me know  .

You know, I felt very sad when you said that I was saying a lot because it reminded me of my ex-fiance; him and all my Ni confidants have joked about the same thing that I say a lot in short space and I understand it's a lot to digest; 'immature' Si dom/auxes and Ni-Se users are overwhelmed by it while other Si users seem to enjoy it. 

Also, I know I have said mean/harsh things about my ex in the forums in the past but he had, God bless him, many virtues and I hope he finds everything good that he desires in this life. Not that me saying this was necessary but hi, I'm an emotional subjectivist  . )

As for every interaction being like war, it's not that I don't understand where you're coming from (neither Ni, nor Se are my polrs), it's just I believe not everything is war but war is war. I ... uh think you understand me on some level?  Again, it's not that I don't objectively appreciate Ni-Se (as any sane person should appreciate any function) but it still feels unpleasant to me, at times *shrugs*. Maybe, it bothers me. I think Figure mentioned early on in this thread that he irritates his ENFP friend because he wants her to get angry. If that's not Se seeking, I don't know what is. I swear, I know infantiles (especially the ethical ones) get a lot of shit for being needy but whenever I'm in similar situations with my Ni friends and families, I get really irritated like, 'OH GOD, THIS AGAIN? REALLY? REALLY? REALLY?' XD I don't so much mind providing Se to gamma victims as much as I do with beta victims (hao u Ti? :'( , I dunnooo ); I see my Ti-ISTj friend get pissed off her beta victim boyfriend for victim-ish behaviour (making excuses not to meet her not because he doesn't care but he really likes her shows of Se like 'chasing' him or forcing him to fix dates or what have you; they both liked each other and he was like, please ask me out, and she was like why can't you and he was like, please do it for me) but she's not exactly upset by it like I would be in her place. 

Now regarding what you said about debates, I'm there with you to an extent. Sure, ethical infantiles we might seem 'soft' because we don't push agendas much, mostly because we don't care about it, but yeah be sure when something matters a lot to us, we will speak up. I do agree with, 'if you have beliefs, you should stand up for them' but again, it's just tiring sometimes. I think perhaps EIIs can do it better or I am an exceptionally stupid person using socionics as an excuse (or both!)  ; debate is tiring for me because of well ... use of Ti, I need a lot of time to come up with coherent and logically foolproof thoughts about logically complex issues, like I'll know right about something but it's hard to convey that *sighs* . And we can push, only it's often irritating unless it's for let's things with more real life consequences (let's say I take measures like protesting for the sake of making my local government pass a bill); it's unpleasant even in those circumstances but we understand that it's necessary and practical (valued Si-Te).

Your lack of interest in caregivers reminds me of how I feel with aggressors, like dude, stop bothering me, I don't need you to push me to do s**t; I suppose subconsciously they expect someone to enjoy the energy (Se-Ni) exchange but I don't care for it, much. One of the reasons, even Se demonstrative sometimes, get on my nerves, it's like I know you're not being pushy but trust me, that's how you can come off sometimes.



> OMG this story is soooo cute! I wish you'd gone for it - or on second thought, maybe not, given your experiences dating Ni types. Hrm. Too bad.


Lol; now I might be a silly, head in the clouds, naive person who never learns from anything but hey, you know, I don't know if me dating an ENTJ would have been the worst *shrugs*  . I personally know an ENTJ/ENFP couple IRL. They care for and love each other. For what it's worth, in relationships that are successful, I think that things beyond socionics are at work. Now, extinguishment is supposed to be one of the worst and yet, Paul Dano/Zoe Kazan (Fi-IEE/Ni-INFp) have together for like 9 years (I don't know them personally but they appear to be fulfilled enough) ... in a world, that's so cruel, I hope they can maintain whatever happiness they have and find even more.



> This is a fascinating piece of input, actually. Do you think relationships with shared judging functions go over better overall? What about with different perception functions, though? If a person sees the world in a way fundamentally different from yours but has the same judging functions, I'd imagine they can communicate to you how they see it, but that breeds understanding more than it does trust or acceptance. I'd imagine some compatibility of belief structures would be needed to bridge the gulf, such as sharing more traits in the theory (like Process/Result) or having similar pasts.


You know, I have no idea about whether or not relationships with shared judging functions are better overall *shrugs*. I know a lot of people say that shared perceiving functions are much more important for long term success in relationships while I have seen others who disagree, saying that for example in the case of relationship of benefits, it is better that one partner is ethical and the other is logical. I have never been in a asymmetrical relationship (I'm queen of the world, lol) so well ... here's my experience as such. It's nice being benefactor to my beneficiary, I mean jeez who wouldn't want ENTjs to appreciate them  ; generally, my ENTj friends have been lovely people who make me feel good about myself and I, them. If we do have disagreements or such, it usually doesn't last very long. As for ESFJs, well ... here's where it is upsetting for me. I know ENFp/ESFJ couples who do well (bless <3 ) and yet, honestly, it hurts me a lot to be around them during ethical disagreements. They use Ti to justify their points (and it feels like such a cruel and detached thing, even when it clearly isn't) and they are absolutely immune to Fi justifications; I'm a Fi subtype and I tell you, it _hurts to the point of tears_. When you don't share judging functions, things are painful. When someone is deaf and blind to your emotional pleas, the ones you make to sustain a relationship, it aches. You know how you mentioned if other dichotomies in socionics theory were important, as well? Well, my benefactor and I are both obstinate: not the most fun relationship for settling disagreements, I tell you. I had a huge crush on an ESFJ friend (I believe @kittenmogu, hiya girl, sorry to be random, may have had a similar experience with her benefactor who was ISTp, even though, she and ISTps have the same judging functions); and the truth is while we were encouraged to date, I ... just never could bring myself to do it, one of the reasons being that I felt that he always picked Fe issues '_over me_' . The group was always more important; it could have been a clash between so/sx (him) and sx/sp (me) values but I have read of couples of other instinctual subtypes having similar problems  . Emotional atmospheres are not really a shared thing for me; hence, my ignoring them at the expense of Ti (every system, even fun social groups have an internal logic, obviously) made me look foolish and destructive in front of him and I suppose he thought I was unworthy as a partner shrugs. Me and mutual friend of ours, who was Si-ESTJ, we both talked to each other about how our friend's Fi-ignoring hurt us. This is a problem we had with our ESFJ friend: it's not so simple for us to say talk about something difficult and then once it's over, it's just over. I'm not explaining this very well but Fi bonds are like this, you tell me about your problems, I tell you about mine, we talk about it in a pretty nonemotional way because to an extent, we're responsible for managing our own feelings and unless we're really dumb, we'll show major to minor signs of empathy but mostly it's quiet listening and offering practical advice; we're not looking for our interlocutor's emotions, we don't care much if their concern is associated with emotional expressions (smiles, watery eyes). I'm not saying Fe valuers can't or don't work similarly (of course they do, we're all human) but it's still ... sighs. I'm sure someone else can and has spoken about these differences better in the past.

Despite not having judicious/decisive dichotomies in common, I believe that ENTj/ENFp and INFp/INTj have other complementary dichotomies, which help smooth out the differences over perceiving issues, thus making trust and acceptance in those relationships being easier to achieve and sustain.



> Do you think there could be intertype of Enneagram? I haven't studied the 'gram much.


Ermm, what intertype? Enneagram has instinctual subtypes and tritypes; you can look them up and maybe it will help you gain an understanding that I uhh seem to have trouble giving you  .

Fenix, I am almost done but I want to apologize for rambling or well appearing to ramble. I wish I could have answered your questions in a more concise and precise way that would have beneficial to you (((( but I do hope my poor attempt at giving some of my perspective was of some help.


----------



## inabox (Oct 3, 2015)

> Would you say that intertype is more accurate for romantic relationships than for friendships, and if so - by how much? And in what ways? I have been trying to investigate it, but alas the roadblock of not being sure of the types of others makes this difficult.


 @Fenix Wulfheart, dude I think we have successfully established that I am incapable of giving concise and precise views so ... uh, I think intertype is accurate for both romantic and platonic relationships, I can't tell by how much though or in what ways  . My experiences, while in many ways may be universal, they are also probably personal in that they are just applicable to me so I don't know how to answer that question in a 'global way' . I hope that makes sense. Honestly, I have no fucking idea, lol.

Which reminds me, I have read accounts of INFp/ISFj relationships and contrasted them with accounts of INFp/INTj relationships and honestly most if not all the accounts of the latter relationship sounded waaaaay more pleasant. Honestly, being somewhat of a dick, I read accounts of ISFj shutting down the 'drama' of INFps and I was like, 'thank God, someone can do it.' I imagine, some would feel similarly about ESFjs telling me to stop my inappropriate (too loud, too opinionated in public) 'hysterics' (ie my icky Ti polr outbursts)  .

But let's see if this can help you: so I have an Ni-INTp friend, I love her very much. She was the reason I was able to be single for years between boyfriends without feeling too sad. I loved her very much. Now, we did have Ni-Ne issues but not too often but here's what she kept doing that hurt me. If she was going through a difficult period in her life, she'd ignore me. Tell me she was going to hang out with me and then bail. I understand Ni-Fi needs to be alone in tough situations but I need to know if someone's taking time off, they'll come back or they're really thinking about not coming back. I don't like being left in the dark. Later, on, she'd come back and it would be 'fine' but it mostly sucked. It was kind of like what the last two guys I dated, did. I told her, _please_ don't make promises you can't keep and don't feel embarrassed if you have to keep telling me the same thing (I'm sad to hang out) because I'll understand but don't leave me in the dark.

But well, she had done that again; all I wanted from her was to reply to me once every month or just say hi, not even a full conversation, I think I had even tried indicating this to her these last 6 months or so. I'm not trying to say that she was a bad person or a bad friend or what have you, only that I felt like my _need_ for reassurance was not met. I know infantiles, often unfairly, get flack for being needy but we require certain displays of Si (concrete consistency) which are at the end of the day ... not too overbearing. The problem is if you have 1D (and sometimes even 2D Si for that matter), you might not need an EXCESSS of your 1D/2D function (as is perceived by nonvaluers) but you need it in some form that may actually be rather mild- a signal; but because you don't have a great use of it, it may often be hard to articulate to others just how much you need, how often you need and what _exactly_ it is that you need. I understand now how the victim guys I dated must have felt, they were probably frustrated with me in a similar way; they'd need me to wait and I'd be like fuck this (not that this was always unwarranted); I have seen aggressors handle similar situations in a way that was satisfactory for both parties (yes, many ENFps wait for their INTps and they go on to be happy and what have you; but what I have seen from my own experience, I, perhaps due to being infantile or having had previous bad experiences, don't care for waiting and sometimes, these Ni guys are just aholes who like stringing many people around; contrast this with my Se-ESTp friend who is very chill with the fact that it will take a long time for her Ni-INTp beau to properly ask her out and be serious, he is trying though to be properly worthy of her as he should; I praise her and cheer her on for being a princess cum gladiator <3 ).

But yeah. My Ni-INFp friend hadn't do what I asked her to. I don't like it when people keep repeating mistakes after I keep asking them (_pleading them_) not to. It's not that I don't have similar problems but as Stratievskaya said, somehow it is much easier to forgive in yourself what you cannot forgive in others. So, yeah, she and I talked last night and as I spoke to her, I realized that I had lost a lot of my love, faith and trust in her. One of the keys, I suppose to making INTp/ENFp relationships work is having concrete, timely sensory support without which the relationship falls apart and you start distrusting and disliking the other person (as mah supervise Stratievskaya said, lol). It was still easy to talk to her and I told her I loved her and when she was sad when she realized it was never going to be the same. Sure, I hope our friendship will be better than it is now but for now, meh. Idk, though, may be it will get better: mirage after all, is a relationship, where when it's good it's easier to accept some of the unpleasant parts of your partner and sometimes, if you're one of the lucky ones, you get better at maneuvering problems and even providing your mirage's DS needs. A part of making such a relationship (friendship included) work, of course also has to do it each other's backgrounds and pasts as it does with any relationships. Heck, the Te-ISTp (my dual) I went on a date with turned out to be a con and a cheat (ie that he asked to let me know if I wanted to be serious like riiight now and then he married someone else like 2 days later when I was like yeah I don't know I need time; sheesh, should have carried out much deeper investigations because if I had, I might have known that he had a somewhat secret fiancée whom he had planned to ditch at the slightest possibility of having a 'better option'), so yeah, me mentioning that was totally OT but yeah people's pasts and individual qualities do matter in victim-infantile relationships as with any other.

Sorry again, Felix, for babbling  . But if any of this incoherent ramble has broadened your perspectives or added to your insights, I'll be glad.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart (Aug 18, 2015)

I skipped anything I lacked a response to.



inabox said:


> Well, buddy regarding the IEI ex thing and how he left me stranded or whatever, well, the details are things that I don't want to talk about in the forum, which I know is totally hypocritical and logically inconsistent (haha oh  ). If you are interested in learning more about my dynamics, I can PM you, in which case let me know  .


Oh that is more than fair. If I ask any questions you do not wish to answer, feel free to disregard them! I don't want to pry! 



inabox said:


> You know, I felt very sad when you said that I was saying a lot because it reminded me of my ex-fiance; him and all my Ni confidants have joked about the same thing that I say a lot in short space and I understand it's a lot to digest; 'immature' Si dom/auxes and Ni-Se users are overwhelmed by it while other Si users seem to enjoy it.


I didn't mean to inspire sadness. I'm sorry. (note I used the word inspire very carefully, instead of using say..."cause". I am not trying to take responsibility for the feeling away from you! *nods*)



inabox said:


> Also, I know I have said mean/harsh things about my ex in the forums in the past but he had, God bless him, many virtues and I hope he finds everything good that he desires in this life. Not that me saying this was necessary but hi, I'm an emotional subjectivist  . )


Fair enough. I'm glad you can see the good and the bad both; it shows maturity.

What do you mean Emotional Subjectivist? Subjectivist, as in Merry Quadra? Or subjectivist, as in introverted in orientation of emotion (Fi)?



inabox said:


> As for every interaction being like war, it's not that I don't understand where you're coming from (neither Ni, nor Se are my polrs), it's just I believe not everything is war but war is war. I ... uh think you understand me on some level?  Again, it's not that I don't objectively appreciate Ni-Se (as any sane person should appreciate any function) but it still feels unpleasant to me, at times *shrugs*. Maybe, it bothers me. I think Figure mentioned early on in this thread that he irritates his ENFP friend because he wants her to get angry. If that's not Se seeking, I don't know what is. I swear, I know infantiles (especially the ethical ones) get a lot of shit for being needy but whenever I'm in similar situations with my Ni friends and families, I get really irritated like, 'OH GOD, THIS AGAIN? REALLY? REALLY? REALLY?' XD I don't so much mind providing Se to gamma victims as much as I do with beta victims (hao u Ti? :'( , I dunnooo ); I see my Ti-ISTj friend get pissed off her beta victim boyfriend for victim-ish behaviour (making excuses not to meet her not because he doesn't care but he really likes her shows of Se like 'chasing' him or forcing him to fix dates or what have you; they both liked each other and he was like, please ask me out, and she was like why can't you and he was like, please do it for me) but she's not exactly upset by it like I would be in her place.


Any sane person should appreciate every function, yet I struggle so hard with whichever function it is when people tell me that I am doing things wrong and go on to say I shouldn't even ever try as a result (Te + Low F, probably?).

War is War. I think I understand. It's like saying war is "a state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state."; therefore this is not conversation, because you are saying not all conversations should be like a conflict. You are separating the idea of conversation and armed conflicts to illustrate that they are not mutually inclusive (AKA you are saying that the two are not one and the same).

Wanting to make others angry is Se seeking? What about trolling people? I have heard that ENTps are the biggest trolls. Is trolling a form of Se seeking, which would indicate Se seekers and ENTp have this in common? Or perhaps that people that are trolls are often not ENTps? How do these two relate in your view? (I am quite a troll in real life, but I am a subtle troll. I say the things that people realize were trolling after the mental echo of it being said is dying down, and they finish processing what was meant XD)

awwww....I <3 that ISTj, she would take charge like that. I imagine that can frustrating at times. My room mate gets frustrated with me, because she asks me (for example) "What would you like for dinner" and I'm like..."I don't care, whatever sounds good". Then she is like "That doesn't help, I need ideas...". Then I go "ummm..." and then suggest something simple. I think she may be asking for Ne from me, maybe. It feels to me like the story of my life has been people asking for Ne from me. Maybe that's why people are telling me I seem like an EIE to them. I don't know. What I do know, is that I do not like pitching out ideas like that all the time. It's...disquieting. Disruptive. I'm good at it, but the more I do it the more stressed I seem to get.

I've always wished someone would ask me out, take the initiative like that ISTj friend of yours. I find that if I don't take the initiative, though, I simply don't get dates. Perhaps a side effect of culture and gender norms, I dunno. I just...I want to take the role that society sees as feminine, but I want a woman that takes the other role. Is that so uncommon? *frustration*

See what I mean? It isn't that you ramble, its that you cover so much ground in so little space. All this from one section! All these threads created from a smaller one. Expansive. This is how I see Ne, so it heartens me to see you type as an IEE. I feel like you are a good example of NeFi, and this when I need to illustrate to someone what NeFi looks like I can recall this conversation. This is so enlightening.



inabox said:


> Now regarding what you said about debates, I'm there with you to an extent. Sure, ethical infantiles we might seem 'soft' because we don't push agendas much, mostly because we don't care about it, but yeah be sure when something matters a lot to us, we will speak up. I do agree with, 'if you have beliefs, you should stand up for them' but again, it's just tiring sometimes. I think perhaps EIIs can do it better or I am an exceptionally stupid person using socionics as an excuse (or both!)  ; debate is tiring for me because of well ... use of Ti, I need a lot of time to come up with coherent and logically foolproof thoughts about logically complex issues, like I'll know right about something but it's hard to convey that *sighs* . And we can push, only it's often irritating unless it's for let's things with more real life consequences (let's say I take measures like protesting for the sake of making my local government pass a bill); it's unpleasant even in those circumstances but we understand that it's necessary and practical (valued Si-Te).


I don't think you are stupid. Also, if Socionics is your idea of an excuse for when you are a stupid person, I think you may be smarter than you think - Socionics is difficult and arduous to learn. If you can grasp it enough to use it as an excuse while being stupid, I'm a bit impressed =P



inabox said:


> Your lack of interest in caregivers reminds me of how I feel with aggressors, like dude, stop bothering me, I don't need you to push me to do s**t; I suppose subconsciously they expect someone to enjoy the energy (Se-Ni) exchange but I don't care for it, much. One of the reasons, even Se demonstrative sometimes, get on my nerves, it's like I know you're not being pushy but trust me, that's how you can come off sometimes.


I suspect my ex is a Caregiver. She seemed to want to take care of me all the time, and her interest seemed to wane when I didn't need or want it. The more she tried to do these things, the more distant I became. I eventually had to break up with her. That hurt a lot, but I think it would have hurt worse to just...let it keep stagnating. You know? It's like that thread in the relationship is a niggling little backdrop of annoyance, but it just keeps getting worse over time.



inabox said:


> You know, I have no idea about whether or not relationships with shared judging functions are better overall *shrugs*. I know a lot of people say that shared perceiving functions are much more important for long term success in relationships while I have seen others who disagree, saying that for example in the case of relationship of benefits, it is better that one partner is ethical and the other is logical.


I think each intertype and each individual pairing has a lot more going on than one of these two trait sets. Sharing Judging would help, but what if one has FeNi and the other has SiFe? The subtle arguments this can cause due to fundamental differences in worldview despite many similarities, leads to an illusionary relationship where it is hard to gain solid ground and know where one stands. That lack of certainty can be destructive on its own to some. But then, are all such Illusionary relationships the same? I think not.



inabox said:


> As for ESFJs, well ... here's where it is upsetting for me. I know ENFp/ESFJ couples who do well (bless <3 ) and yet, honestly, it hurts me a lot to be around them during ethical disagreements. They use Ti to justify their points (and it feels like such a cruel and detached thing, even when it clearly isn't) and they are absolutely immune to Fi justifications; I'm a Fi subtype and I tell you, it _hurts to the point of tears_. When you don't share judging functions, things are painful. When someone is deaf and blind to your emotional pleas, the ones you make to sustain a relationship, it aches.


It can really hurt to admit the "truth", the objective logic that one sees, the conception of what makes sense within the context of what is known and is thus believed to be true. This can hurt many times more when someone else must tell you this "truth". Saying how you feel about it is well and good, but at the end of the day, does it really change what makes sense? I can see where they come from, and where you come from. I wish we could simply change it. This power would make one able to create a world of true peace, unlike anything that has ever been seen before save in dreams and visions.



inabox said:


> Me and mutual friend of ours, who was Si-ESTJ, we both talked to each other about how our friend's Fi-ignoring hurt us. This is a problem we had with our ESFJ friend: it's not so simple for us to say talk about something difficult and then once it's over, it's just over. I'm not explaining this very well but Fi bonds are like this, you tell me about your problems, I tell you about mine, we talk about it in a pretty nonemotional way because to an extent, we're responsible for managing our own feelings and unless we're really dumb, we'll show major to minor signs of empathy but mostly it's quiet listening and offering practical advice; we're not looking for our interlocutor's emotions, we don't care much if their concern is associated with emotional expressions (smiles, watery eyes). I'm not saying Fe valuers can't or don't work similarly (of course they do, we're all human) but it's still ... sighs. I'm sure someone else can and has spoken about these differences better in the past.
> 
> 
> > " it's not so simple for us to say talk about something difficult and then once it's over, it's just over"
> ...


----------



## inabox (Oct 3, 2015)

@Fenix Wulfheart, hey sorry it took me so long to reply but yeah, I was having trouble arranging the thoughts in my head, heh.

I meant emotional subjectivist as in I value Fi- I don't deeply care for external standards regarding ethics.



> Wanting to make others angry is Se seeking? What about trolling people? I have heard that ENTps are the biggest trolls. Is trolling a form of Se seeking, which would indicate Se seekers and ENTp have this in common? Or perhaps that people that are trolls are often not ENTps? How do these two relate in your view? (I am quite a troll in real life, but I am a subtle troll.


Seeking intensity (_intelligent _ intensity tbh, lol) in interactions, I think is a sign of Se seeking  . As for trolling, I think, it's a sign of Fi polr- playing around with ethical issues to find how much is acceptable eg pushing boundaries. I do similar things with T stuff (eg can I finish assignments at the last moment lol, how much can I bail on my teammates in group work, not that I do but sometimes I'm curious).



> I've always wished someone would ask me out, take the initiative like that ISTj friend of yours. I find that if I don't take the initiative, though, I simply don't get dates. Perhaps a side effect of culture and gender norms, I dunno. I just...I want to take the role that society sees as feminine, but I want a woman that takes the other role. Is that so uncommon? *frustration*


Lol, yeah, my ISTj friend didn't take the intiative; he was the one asking for intiative and she rolled her eyes while giving it; I think he might be Fe-IEI  . I've read that in xSI/xIE relationships, the extrovert takes the intiative but the introvert directs the relationship which as is needed in victim/aggressor relationships  . I understand that my friend wishes that he'd behave more like an EIE at times (eg EIEs have Te role so they can take charge of situations superficially and show of role is important for dualization, obviously) ; the rationality/irrationality divide is sometimes also irritating for her (in this I sympathize with him; I'm Fi-IEE and my first love was Te-ESTj and whereas he wanted more predictable behaviour from me, I'd wish that he was more flexible like an ISTp). Nonetheless, of course, I do believe, she enjoys being with someone who fulfills her emotionally and that this is her most positive relationship so far; female TP/male FJ is a lovely dynamic; she has had moments of feeling bad for not being openly emotional enough (poor F) and thus not being appealing in a feminine sense but I reassured her by giving her my own example: I can and do make a show of being emotionally open and expressive but I don't look for these things in a partner (8th function) because I value other qualities; she is more than enough for him because I've come to understand that she naturally provides whatever (Se-Ti energy  ) it is that he's looking for. Fenix, fwiw, I do hope you find a nice beta ST to be with (maybe INTp, lol, honestly one of the better INFp relationships, I think) because I think lady Ts, when mature, have deep appreciation for the emotional intelligence that many F guys naturally possess  . Also as for gender roles, my Ne-LII buddy tells me similar things about how he really prefers women he dates to be more assertive (Se demonstrative; Fe role/leading) and he's become comfortable being open about it, now. I've heard similar things from a Fi-EII dude friend. I understand that while you wish that taking initiative isn't always appealing, it did work out for the beta victim, my friend is with. And who knows? There are lady xSTps who really look to take initiative so while you're waiting to find someone like them, they are probably waiting to find someone like you . You is fine, Fenix.

I can understand why you weren't into your caregiver ex; I have seen other caregivers with victims and it's usually because of matching instinctual subtypes (sx/sp with sp/sx) ; and while, being with aggressors in a romantic sense would be exhausting to me, I see my Ne-IEE working it out with her Se-SEE husband (so/sx and sx/so; however, do keep in mind, that serious quadras tend to form long term relationships on matching values, so intertype relations is often given less thought).



> I feel like you are a good example of NeFi, and this when I need to illustrate to someone what NeFi looks like I can recall this conversation. This is so enlightening.






> But then, are all such Illusionary relationships the same? I think not.


Oh, totally. You know, it's interesting, while it's been said that illusionary is usually better for the irrationals, it seems that there are a lot of INFj/ESFj and ISFj/ENFj couples (commonly where the guy's the FJ, the girl's FP) out there; complementary romance styles and all that jazz probably appeal to the introverted rational feelers (as it probably should be lol; which highly speaks of their intrapersonal intelligence, I believe)  . Your illusionary under many circumstances can look like your dual (esp when they have the same creative and demonstrative functions) so yeah while there are heartbreaks over differing values, when mirage is good, it's more (a little more? lol) than good enough.



> This power would make one able to create a world of true peace, unlike anything that has ever been seen before save in dreams and visions.


That's a nice thought but personally for me, all I know is that this world is real and I'm good with taking it as it is which is pretty delta NF thought, not that beta NFs don't reach the same conclusion in different ways. 



> I will understand. Even if it kills me.


Good luck buddy, and hopefully you'll live instead  *pats on the back*.

I'll send you a PM later (hopefully by tomorrow) regarding your questions about my ex lol and how it fits into intertype theories (along with examples of INFp drama) and what enneagram resources have to say about instinctual subtype relationships.


----------



## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

Personally i dont think these are true. A enneagram 4 SEI for example, will act like a victim.


----------



## Jamaia (Dec 17, 2014)

@karmachameleon Care to elaborate? How do you think they take the victim role? 

I don't have the introspective skills to see if I do it too, but I know I switch to Caregiving if Infantile thing doesn't seem to work. I keep seeing the victim attitude in the INTp all the time. He will argue heatedly about some stupid thing, but then all of a sudden, after reaching certain point and if I haven't given in, he'll 100% drop it and do exactly as I say and seems happy with it. It's baffling to me, I don't get what's going through his head.


----------



## karmachameleon (Nov 1, 2015)

Jamaia said:


> @karmachameleon Care to elaborate? How do you think they take the victim role?
> 
> I don't have the introspective skills to see if I do it too, but I know I switch to Caregiving if Infantile thing doesn't seem to work. I keep seeing the victim attitude in the INTp all the time. He will argue heatedly about some stupid thing, but then all of a sudden, after reaching certain point and if I haven't given in, he'll 100% drop it and do exactly as I say and seems happy with it. It's baffling to me, I don't get what's going through his head.


4s naturally take a victim role, they see themselves as victims


----------



## Jamaia (Dec 17, 2014)

karmachameleon said:


> 4s naturally take a victim role, they see themselves as victims


But could you give examples, how you think it might manifest. Because I'm thinking the kind of victim an ISFp might play is different (essentially a disappointed, frustrated Caregiver?) from the Ni-kind of Victim.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart (Aug 18, 2015)

@inabox

I will await your PM, and will address your post there too.
@Jamaia

Victim-like, Si and 4 maybe
"Nobody ever appreciates me. I want to work with what is around me to generate a good atmosphere, but no one ever listens to me. Won't someone please help me, show me the way to make the world get me?"
This shows a focus on atmosphere and on wanting someone to generate ideas for them, yet still focuses on their own specialness or differentness. Ne seeking 4ness.

vs. IEI Victim
"I can teach the world the error of their ways, as I see what others miss. All these possible negative outcomes are scary, though, oh woe is me. Won't someone help me deal with this cruel world?"
Obvious.

My examples may suck. Sorry if they do. The point, though, is that it is easily possible to be 4 and Ne seeking. But yes, as you say, they will look quite different. If you go deep into tritype and things, I would expect trends to emerge in Si-dom 4s that are not present in Ni-dom 4s, and vice versa.


----------



## Jamaia (Dec 17, 2014)

Fenix Wulfheart said:


> @inabox
> 
> I will await your PM, and will address your post there too.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I'm not that well read on Socionics, I don't know what Ne-seeking means. But I'd imagine here the difference is that Si victim comes from "I do so much and it's unappreciated" type of feeling, and they'd be happy if their partner would just accept what they have to offer and that their partner would be thankful and better for it, and the more they feel like an unappreciated victim of mean ungrateful users, the more stressed and further away from being happy they are (and closer perhaps to ending the relationship?). They are not looking for conflict. Their victimhood is not a romance style.

Where as with Ni, and this is incredibly strange to me, they want to be the victim and to get to complain about what they are forced to do, but it doesn't mean they want to get away from it. They want there to be conflict and they want their partner to not yield. The more they complain, argue and complicate things, the happier they'll be when their partner tells them to shut up, shows what needs to happen and makes them to do it. And then the victim gets to complain some more while doing what their partner wants to see done and everyone will be happy. That's victimhood as a romance style, IMO.

**

Edit, and I see only now that you @Fenix Wulfheart are a male INFJ 5, what do you think about this victim thing in the context of a relationship?


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart (Aug 18, 2015)

@Jamaia
I find that as an INFJ 5, my own romance style is often about me warning my partner of potential negative outcomes and trying to focus on the positives of what does happen when we do the things. Warn - survive - celebrate. Distant/worrisome - tense/prepared - relieved/happy. So I seesaw between cautioning them and then being swept along with them. Because of this, I need a partner that can get me out of my head. If my partner can't get me to stop focusing on avoiding dangers, then I don't end up going out and doing things. If we end up stable and sitting at home too much, I get bored (with the romance; I have enough stuff to do that I can always have something to occupy myself with at home). Basically, I just walk away and do my own shit until my partner shows some initiative. Huh. That's kind of sulking. Heh.

Oh, and I also find that a partner that never challenges me is boring as hell. So if I don't go out and do things, but I need things to happen, I get entirely stuck. I don't end up doing anything. It becomes hard to get out of bed.

As a 541 (most likely, or perhaps 594), I see my social role as the Knowledge Bringer or Shaman or Wise Man. I am the one that gains insights and then brings them down to share with my fellow man. So I bring knowledge, above all, to my partner. I am less a complainer and more a worrywart in this regard, although it still comes across as complaining I guess.

I find that when I am with a partner that does not challenge me, I always wind up testing them. I feed them information that should obviously be stupid or false, and see if they catch it. Twist their words and show how, logically, while they said one thing they also were saying another thing that could be seen as offensive. Testing to see how much they are listening to me, how much reaction I can get. I push because, somehow, I don't feel like the relationship is alive until they can push. At the end of the day, I don't need exotic adventure and unusual happenings. If a woman can just grab me, pull me close, and SHOW me I am loved...then I am.

And then I can get out of my head, if only for a while.


On the Si 4: Yeah, but the Victim Romance Style is still what people see when they look at this hypothetical person. Or, put another way, 4ishness in a Si type can look like Ni Romance Style until you dig deeper. Which means that non-4 Ni styles may also look quite different, too. A 5 may look like Infantile style because 5s want to understand deeper, and Ne wants to expand across different contexts.

So then what constitutes romance style, and what Enneagram type? Does one influence the other? How does an 8 IFNP look, for example? Do we accept this type as possible? If so, what is their Romance Style's manifestation? Faux-Aggressor? With Se PoLR? Heh, that'd be something to see.


----------



## Jamaia (Dec 17, 2014)

Fenix Wulfheart said:


> @Jamaia
> I find that as an INFJ 5, my own romance style is often about me warning my partner of potential negative outcomes and trying to focus on the positives of what does happen when we do the things. Warn - survive - celebrate. Distant/worrisome - tense/prepared - relieved/happy. So I seesaw between cautioning them and then being swept along with them. Because of this, I need a partner that can get me out of my head. If my partner can't get me to stop focusing on avoiding dangers, then I don't end up going out and doing things. If we end up stable and sitting at home too much, I get bored (with the romance; I have enough stuff to do that I can always have something to occupy myself with at home). Basically, I just walk away and do my own shit until my partner shows some initiative. Huh. That's kind of sulking. Heh.
> 
> Oh, and I also find that a partner that never challenges me is boring as hell. So if I don't go out and do things, but I need things to happen, I get entirely stuck. I don't end up doing anything. It becomes hard to get out of bed.
> ...


:´) I'm so happy to hear INxJ guys say this. It means I've understood. And this does sound so familiar. With Te (INTJ) it's more he telling me how we must do things so that it is correct, and him telling me how it is going to go awfully wrong if done my way. I don't know if I'd be able to catch that kind of Fe thing you say you might do.



> On the Si 4: Yeah, but the Victim Romance Style is still what people see when they look at this hypothetical person. Or, put another way, 4ishness in a Si type can look like Ni Romance Style until you dig deeper.


Yes, probably does look like Victim, but it should be obvious that if you get into a shouting match with an ISFJ and break the logic of everything they throw at you, you might see them submit, but it's more from broken spirit, you won't see them get all heart-eyed and smiley and happy and energized for the rest of the day from it. 



> Which means that non-4 Ni styles may also look quite different, too. A 5 may look like Infantile style because 5s want to understand deeper, and Ne wants to expand across different contexts.
> 
> So then what constitutes romance style, and what Enneagram type? Does one influence the other? How does an 8 IFNP look, for example? Do we accept this type as possible? If so, what is their Romance Style's manifestation? Faux-Aggressor? With Se PoLR? Heh, that'd be something to see.


I'll try to reply to you more in length later. It seems to me like Socionic's romance style is something more specific than Enneagram. But I'm afraid I don't know enough of either to really reply to this. I hope others will.


----------



## Jamaia (Dec 17, 2014)

Fenix Wulfheart said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, I think the romance style is not so much about what you do or think (Enneagram), it's about what kind of dynamic you are expecting in a relationship and how you react (positive/negative) to things within the relationship (your reactions are based on your expectations). Romance style means you will be responding according to what you feel is your role and you expect your partner to act according to the opposing role. If the relationship doesn't meet your expectations, the dynamic is lacking and falls or gets torn apart. 

I see an idealized view of a victim in Murad Osmann's Follow Me series. He wants her to pull him to her world, he wants to resist to get her to physically show she wants him, because he is forever unsure about her feelings for him. He is happy and feels loved if she continues to pull him without doubting his true feelings despite his act of resistance. The wrong kind of attitude from her would be interpreting the resisting as an indication of his true feelings, leading to something like "oh did you not want to go here, was there something else you prefer instead?" (worried caregiver attempting to fix the dynamics) or "damn it will you make an effort, if you don't want to come just say so, I'm not going to drag anyone around!" (annoyed infantile attitude). The worried caregiver or annoyed infantile might eventually act like what is generally understood as victim/martyr, but it's not from really wanting to be in that place, it's from disappointment and lack of romance instead of fulfilled romantic feelings.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart (Aug 18, 2015)

It being behavior people recognize as Victim-like is the point I was making. I am not saying a Si type could ever BE a victim (romance expectations of Ni in Ego), but that such an individual could appear to be because of the behaviors accompanying being type 4. 

It seems to me that you think it would be obvious/easy to see past such a veil. I am not in the same boat there, as I find that even when you know a person in real life they can act very differently from what they want in life. It seems to me that 60% of emotional stress is self inflicted entirely, due to people's poor self understanding. But I don't expect you to agree with me on that


----------



## inabox (Oct 3, 2015)

I do have a sort of victim style of romance, as an sx/sp. You know, come chase me, convince me that you would like to be with me. Sx/sos act like an aggressor and matches the intensity.

Which reminds me, so/sx and sp/sx can be a little aggressor-ish in a playful way.


----------



## Jamaia (Dec 17, 2014)

Fenix Wulfheart said:


> It being behavior people recognize as Victim-like is the point I was making. I am not saying a Si type could ever BE a victim (romance expectations of Ni in Ego), but that such an individual could appear to be because of the behaviors accompanying being type 4.
> 
> It seems to me that you think it would be obvious/easy to see past such a veil. I am not in the same boat there, as I find that even when you know a person in real life they can act very differently from what they want in life. It seems to me that 60% of emotional stress is self inflicted entirely, due to people's poor self understanding. But I don't expect you to agree with me on that


I was probably just still talking about it because @karmachameleon didn't come back to say "I see it now, I was wrong, thank you for making me believe in romance styles!"  (jk @karmachameleon). Also I'm still talking about my view on Victim because I want to explain what I've seen and how I'm understanding it and hear if it seems accurate to you guys (meaning anyone). I'm convinced this difference explains a lot in my relationship. But I haven't much thought about it the other way around, I mean to what extent we are/act out a "wrong" type. And I'm pretty blind to my own romance style and how much it might affect me.

(I think the number might be higher than 60%...)


----------

