# Intuition from an SJ perspective



## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

Sigh...

And this thread was doing so well...


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## 90626 (Apr 17, 2014)

I enjoy the company of my NF and NT friends .....a lot of the conversation is comprised of ideas and what they want to accomplish...but it almost never gets accomplished. It's very frustrating to watch them bounce from idea to idea and spend countless hours talking about them but there is no progress. I have spent many hours working with them to improve their health or diet at their request and my reluctance. Appearing so interested and determined to literally save their health but they never make any changes. They love being inspired, talking thinking but not so much action. I don't spend as much time in introspection, but I like to get stuff done...sometimes I'm on autopilot and that's not great either but I get a lot accomplished in a day and don't need to analyze it all.


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## Epicyclic (Aug 7, 2014)

What I respect about intuition:

- Ability to understand abstract stuff. + 1 on the college homework, especially in subjects like physics and engineering. 
- Ability to see possibilities in things. 
- Big picture planning

What I don't like about intuition:

- Lack of practicality. 
- Implementation woes
- Refusal to make practical compromises. 

As a hardcore ISTJ myself, I know well the SJ tendency to only bother at things from the perspective which one is seeing things from, which is rooted in the present. I used to be like that myself. I used to hate NFs especially, since they didn't seem to care about logic and reality. 

However, after experiencing a bit of life, I realise well that intuition itself is a valid viewpoint, no matter how much impractical crap I hear. There are places where focusing on getting things done efficiently - the SJ's strength - just has its limits. Exploring new possibilities, winning over people, teaching them, etc. I've been put in these positions myself, and being an SJ sure didn't help in any of these. 

So I've tried to adopt the best of both practices, and am still learning. I try to plan the big picture beforehand, and then devise ways to implement it. Instead of trying to keep rules at all costs, I aim to achieve objectives at all costs instead and then tweak the methods to achieve it. 

That said, I am still a pretty hardcore ISTJ, and big pictures get planned out from a SJ point of view. But I have learned quite a bit.


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## Jonn (Mar 17, 2014)

Through my perspective Intuition is the same as instinct. Though my perspective is far too simplified for the function to come into details.

I'll attempt my best at explaining my view in details as well.
Remember this is an opinion/guess/idea of how this could be. It is a detailed perspectivical idea of what could be.
Do not use this as a fact or as a basis for understanding. It is a concept of imagination and therefore only a shared thought.


Intuition, is in many ways the same as instinct. Intuition is based on the essential human function of remembrance and understanding. The connection is complex, though many will see the connection as the mental function of insight.
A remembrance or understanding of finding the information hidden inside one self. 
Unlike sensing it is focusing on a larger portion of information. Sensing might focus on one single piece of information gained, what you saw, heard, felt, tasted, smelled.
Whereas Intuition uses the information obtained by instinctive responses. Senses(but in a wider perspective) thought trains(meaning what things might lead to) abstract information(books, codes, music, etc.) indirect information(meaning information, senses, abstract things which hasn't yet been fully received)

Intuition to me. Is the abstract way of gaining information. While sensing is the practical way of gaining information.
Intuition gains information, from nearly everywhere the users knowledge, might hold any insight. It is buying a box of legos, with to make an airplane. Intuition lets you build the airplane, with only the picture of the plane as reference.

Sensing is the practical way of gaining information.
Your sensing will not allow you to go straight at building the airplane figure. It'll have you look at the building manual first.
If you do not read or look at the manual, you'll never have a clue how to build the plane.


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## ENFPhedgehog (Aug 20, 2014)

chimeric said:


> Often when I'm trying to explain a connection, I'm talked over and non sequiturs related to the details I'm presenting are nitpicked instead of someone being patient and first waiting to see how things fit into the larger picture. When I'm being derailed and doubted at every turn, that causes me to lose patience, get frustrated, and throw up my hands thinking "oh forget it." This particularly has surfaced in work environments, and I've lost morale as a result, feeling that it's pointless for me to even try to improve things.


HAHAHA! Holy cow have my ESTJ and I ridden THIS merry-go-round for the last ten years! @WickedQueen and others have it spot on that we (ENFP) can be so bad at executing that they stop listening- it doesn't actually apply, so why bother. And, they are right- to an extent! In the personal realm, honestly, you just have to find someone you can talk to- as totally unsatisfying as that sounds! Your wild ideas are so big that they stress your loved one out because all they see is another adventure they are going to be picking up the pieces on... again. I laugh sometimes because my wife and I do have very similar values, but the roads we take to get there could not possibly be more different! Personally I find S concrete details tedious and boring. 

BUT, your question is specifically in a work environment, and I think I have a few suggestions for you. It boils down to this- break up the tasks! This will help you AND the Ss. In my office I have a giant "good ideas" white board. Each idea has two columns the first is the "good idea" the second is "Next steps for implementation". The trick here is that the next step has to be small enough that it isn't a sudden shock to the SJ and it offers a CLEAR improvement- or at least not a HUGE "efficiency tax." Also, when the tasks are small enough you can properly LISTEN TO WHAT THE Ss ARE TELLING YOU. They have the mind to point out the problems or the tweaks to make your implementation better! They will save your a.. because I will bet my paycheck you haven't thought about how to make the small things better like they have! If you find yourself getting overwhelmed by the objections they are raising YOUR STEP IS TOO BIG. The step has to be small enough that you can deal with the detail but big enough that they can see a positive impact. Realize that just like it doesn't help you to know in painful detail all of the roadblocks they don't need to see the bigger picture to help you implement so stop talking at them and go DO. Pick improvements that you are certain will work- build the trust level between you, then ONCE IN A WHILE when they trust you you can say, "Trust me on this- I know it seems weird and it is more inefficient or it seems silly in the short-term but it will help us all out" they feel they CAN trust you, because you are a DOER and your ideas WORK. But DO NOT abuse this trust- EDIT YOUR IDEAS.

If you just cannot get the Ss behind the next step no matter how you try, don't be afraid to let the idea die, it probably was overboard anyway! 

Is it difficult? Yes, it can be- especially when you are dropped into a new job often and have to go through the wickets to prove yourself to a new group of Ss, but with practice you will find that your ideas get better and implementation gets easier. I find that it helps to write an email, give them a little time to read it and develop their thoughts before I talk to them in person. Give them a little room!!! As a feeler this is key for me- because every little eye roll crushes my spirit. And, I get a lot more eye rolling when I ambush people with ideas- they need a little time to come up with a way to adjust their rhythm. For the P in me this is important. You cannot keep knocking them off balance and expect good results- no matter how much you like that in your own world- unpredictability is the enemy.

One thing that both Ns and Ss do- that drives me up the wall is when they ADMIRE THE PROBLEM. Yep, you can tell me in your Concrete Tedious Detail or in your Grand Theory of Everything why everything is all screwed up BUT NOW OFFER A SOLUTION. Have a solution focused mindset. 

So, in summary- SLOW DOWN THE IDEA TRAIN, break up the tasks into chunks that allow you to understand the detail and allow them to see the benefit, build trust, and allow the group to return to equilibrium before you start the next step. Have a long view, be patient. If your idea isn't one that can be implemented slowly it is probably a bad idea, honestly (or at least not developed enough yet).

WOW 1000 ideas just flooded into my brain- seriously- cynefin framework- idea implementation- long view of change- WOW all of a sudden I have just felt a Grand Theory of Everything enter my brain and I have to run off an catch it! Seriously, I love my brain but damn... squirrel!


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## ENFPhedgehog (Aug 20, 2014)

Ok, now I feel I must add a PS to you, @chimeric, keep a "good idea file". Just now when all of those ideas hit me I opened my good idea file and wrote down as much as I could think. Then, I hit save and I will return to it later. If an idea really is good, let it marinate, soak around with the other good ideas and get ripe enough for further development. Then you wont feel so much like you are losing all of your Great Ideas, but at the same time you aren't introducing a new disruption every damn time the squirrel runs through your head. In the Army we call it the "Good Idea Fairy" and that s%&t is disruptive as hell. Enough to even drive an ENFP crazy (because I might even agree with the Good Idea, but it is either not implementable or the implementation causes a lot of pain and a lot of wasted work.) Ss are much more disrupted by the GIF, and honestly that is because we Ns rely on them so much for implementation.

Read "On Intellectual Craftsmanship" Can't remember the author right now and I have no time to google it again. Read, implement, re-read, implement a little more. That document will help more in the control of your own Good Ideas than anything else and that will allow you to build trust with the SJs at work...


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## jcal (Oct 31, 2013)

ENFPhedgehog said:


> HAHAHA! Holy cow have my ESTJ and I ridden THIS merry-go-round for the last ten years! @_WickedQueen_ and others have it spot on that we (ENFP) can be so bad at executing that they stop listening- it doesn't actually apply, so why bother. And, they are right- to an extent! In the personal realm, honestly, you just have to find someone you can talk to- as totally unsatisfying as that sounds! Your wild ideas are so big that they stress your loved one out because all they see is another adventure they are going to be picking up the pieces on... again. I laugh sometimes because my wife and I do have very similar values, but the roads we take to get there could not possibly be more different! Personally I find S concrete details tedious and boring.
> 
> BUT, your question is specifically in a work environment, and I think I have a few suggestions for you. It boils down to this- break up the tasks! This will help you AND the Ss. In my office I have a giant "good ideas" white board. Each idea has two columns the first is the "good idea" the second is "Next steps for implementation". The trick here is that the next step has to be small enough that it isn't a sudden shock to the SJ and it offers a CLEAR improvement- or at least not a HUGE "efficiency tax." Also, when the tasks are small enough you can properly LISTEN TO WHAT THE Ss ARE TELLING YOU. They have the mind to point out the problems or the tweaks to make your implementation better! They will save you because I will bet my paycheck you haven't though about how to make the small things better like they have! If you find yourself getting overwhelmed by the objections they are raising YOUR STEP IS TOO BIG. The step has to be small enough that you can deal with the detail but big enough that they can see a positive impact. Realize that just like it doesn't help you to know in painful detail all of the roadblocks they don't need to see the bigger picture to help you implement so stop talking at them and go DO. Pick improvements that you are certain will work- build the trust level between you, then ONCE IN A WHILE when they trust you you can say, "Trust me on this- I know it seems weird and it is more inefficient or it seems silly in the short-term but it will help us all out" they feel they CAN trust you, because you are a DOER and your ideas WORK. But DO NOT abuse this trust- EDIT YOUR IDEAS.
> 
> ...


Fair assessment and some good ideas. One I would like to particularly point out is the part about offering solutions. I was fortunate to have a boss early in my career that always emphasized this point. Noting problems was fine... but be specific about the problem and offer an alternate solution. I was always naturally adept at finding the potential problems... this policy trained me to more fully evaluate the problems I found so that I could offer positive advice/solutions rather than just being a Negative Nancy. This has served me well over the years.


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