# Let's Discuss Promises to Have Sex



## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

okay, I get it, it's not ok to rape someone who says they will let someone have sex with you, but at the same time....it's fucked up to promise to have sex with someone and then just decide "nevermind, I don't feel like it". a promise is a promise, and that should mean something. 

so whats the solution? imo, promises of sex should come with collateral, in the same way that you have to do when you take out a bank loan. if you make a promise, someone has the right to take measures to ensure that you keep it. if someone promises me they have sex, I now make them sign a piece of paper saying they will give up something in return if they don't. 

PS: this isn't really even about sex, it's about _respect_. we're all adults here, and when you make a promise, your word is your bond.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Nope. 
People shouldn't make a promise to have sex in the first place, I wouldn't take such a promise seriously, other than as a nice thought. But, even if they do, it's their bodies and their psyche and for whatever reason, if they don't want to have sex, then they shouldn't be forced to, no matter what they said.


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## 1000BugsNightSky (May 8, 2014)

How is this different from any other promise? 

What's your general stance on promises?


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## Another Lost Cause (Oct 6, 2015)

Promising someone to have sex seems a bit weird to me. For me at least, sex is one of those things that happens in the heat of a passionate moment, not something that's planned out for some day and hour next week. I guess if both people work 120 hours a week, that might have to be the way it's done, but it seems a bit sterile and too business-like for my tastes. I agree with Red Panda, moods change, and if someone doesn't feel like having sex at the appointed day and hour, then they shouldn't be pressured into it.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Red Panda said:


> Nope.
> People shouldn't make a promise to have sex in the first place, I wouldn't take such a promise seriously, other than as a nice thought. But, even if they do, it's their bodies and their psyche and for whatever reason, if they don't want to have sex, then they shouldn't be forced to, no matter what they said.


did you read what I said?


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Earthious said:


> How is this different from any other promise?
> What's your general stance on promises?


it's not, that's the point. promises are a big deal, and treating them as something that doesn't need to be kept is a sign of disrespect and extremely low character


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## Macrosapien (Apr 4, 2010)

LOL this is ridiculous, no one is obligated to bang you if they decide they no longer want to anymore after making a promise or otherwise. 

I had a girl I had sex with, whom I was totally opened with, who made a promise of sorts, to allow her to "teach me" how she really wants to be f'ed, in her words. I was down, like yeah have your way with me, teach me. but then randomly she moved and changed her mind. lol why should i hold her to that, would be silly.


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## 1000BugsNightSky (May 8, 2014)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> it's not, that's the point. promises are a big deal, and treating them as something that doesn't need to be kept is a sign of disrespect and extremely low character


I see. Then would you consider all promises verbal contacts? 


Some people also use promises as a way to say they will really try to do something (more than ordinary), not necessarily they will 100% bind themselves to it. 


As for sex itself, how do you have sex if you don't want to? That would depend on future states which you cant be certain of. The fact that sex was promised seems odd in nature in itself (cause it should be let's have sex, or just leave it up to the moment), but that can't be changed. If she changed her mind, there's nothing that can be done about it. I agree, the promise just shouldn't have been made in the first place because she can't be certain of that, but if they change their mind, you can't force them. This is one of those promises you can't guarantee, but more so means that they will really try to follow through with that decision. It's not a contract.


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> okay, I get it, it's not ok to rape someone who says they will let someone have sex with you, but at the same time....it's fucked up to promise to have sex with someone and then just decide "nevermind, I don't feel like it". a promise is a promise, and that should mean something.
> 
> so whats the solution? imo, promises of sex should come with collateral, in the same way that you have to do when you take out a bank loan? if you make a promise, someone has the right to take measures to ensure that you keep it. if someone promises me they have sex, I now make them sign a piece of paper saying they will give up something in return if they don't.
> 
> ...


Your post sounds like something a 15yr old would say. How many adults do you know that make promises to have sex ? The whole post sounds weird, and for you to be whinning over a broken promise to have sex says so much about you. You need so much help, seriously, read your post over and over and over again. People don't owe you jack shit, nothing, nodda. It is their body and they don't only not owe you sex, they don't owe you any explaination either. So what are you going to do ? Cry and beg ? Would you enjoy having sex with people you know don't want to. Get over yourself and grow up.

This post is not about respect , it is about demands and control. You want that power over people, and if they say fuck you then what. Get over yourself, you're really not that Interesting , and perhaps you are not good in bed either.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

MuChApArAdOx said:


> Your post sounds like something a 15yr old would say. How many adults do you know that make promises to have sex ? The whole post sounds weird, and for you to be whinning over a broken promise to have sex says so much about you. You need so much help, seriously, read your post over and over and over again. People don't owe you jack shit, nothing, nodda. It is their body and they don't only not owe you sex, they don't owe you any explaination either. So what are you going to do ? Cry and beg ? Would you enjoy having sex with people you know don't want to. Get over yourself and grow up.
> 
> This post is not about respect , it is about demands and control. You want that power over people, and if they say fuck you then what. Get over yourself, you're really not that Interesting , and perhaps you are not good in bed either.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Earthious said:


> I see. Then would you consider all promises verbal contacts?


yes, your word is your bond. 




> Some people also use promises as a way to say they will really try to do something (more than ordinary), not necessarily they will 100% bind themselves to it.


then that is dishonest, and they shouldn't make it to begin with



> As for sex itself, how do you have sex if you don't want to? That would depend on future states which you cant be certain of. The fact that sex was promised seems odd in nature in itself (cause it should be let's have sex, or just leave it up to the moment), but that can't be changed. If she changed her mind, there's nothing that can be done about it. I agree, the promise just shouldn't have been made in the first place because she can't be certain of that, but if they change their mind, you can't force them. This is one of those promises you can't guarantee, but more so means that they will really try to follow through with that decision. It's not a contract.


1) I'm gay, wrong gender
2) I can't force someone to have with me, but I can say "you promised me money, pay up"


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## 1000BugsNightSky (May 8, 2014)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> A.yes, your word is your bond.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A. People change their minds. 
B. People have different interpretations of how binding promises are. 

1. I realized that halfway through the last paragraph when I start using "they", lol
2. Ok. 
3. Some people borrow change and promise to pay it back. I'm sure you've had times when they didnt...then what?
4. If someone promises you a giant 5 ft rainbow koala, and you don't get it what would you do?


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

Accidentally thanked some post while reading the thread lol

Anyway, how do you even promise something like that?


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

"This isn't really even about sex." Right. So should we use this solution for all other promises as well? What if a friend promises to go grab lunch? Or buy me a movie ticket? Or my cousin promises me she'll study for her test? Can I collect collateral from them too? You seem to have only mentioned promises of sex.

Good luck getting those signatures though.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Earthious said:


> A. People change their minds.
> B. People have different interpretations of how binding promises are.


that's because society is increasingly undervaluing honesty and respect. it doesn't make their interpretation valid. either way, they're not going to have a different interpretation of a promise to me. whether we're talking sex or anything else, I enforce contracts.



> 1. I realized that halfway through the last paragraph when I start using "they", lol
> 2. Ok.


ok



> 3. Some people borrow change and promise to pay it back. I'm sure you've had times when they didnt...then what?


then I make sure they pay me interest and sit down and make them plan on how they're going to pay me back. accidents happen, but if they decide "oh, I'm just not going to pay you"....hell you. I will take that shit



> 4. If someone promises you a giant 5 ft rainbow koala, and you don't get it what would you do?


I would slap the shit out of them.


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## Wild (Jul 14, 2014)

I've noticed this pattern in a lot of people where they put a lot of emphasis on a certain moral (promises, for example) and then judge the fuck out of other people who don't take it as seriously as they do. And you know what I think? I think it's extremely foolish. People aren't here to live up to _your_ standards, because everyone has their own set. 

If someone promises you they'll have sex with you at a certain time, alright. Go ahead, expect it from them. But when the time comes and you don't get any ass, you can't physically do anything about it. You can make a mental note of it, sure. Note that this person makes promises they don't keep, and move on. It doesn't necessarily make them a person of "extremely low character", it might just mean they don't put the same emphasis on promises that you do, or that they didn't mean it as seriously as you took it. Maybe it's not that the person in question is of low character for not living up to your personal standards, but you're just foolish for expecting them to?


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Feeling sexually frustrated again? (Or still)

Don't think I would ever be comfortable to make a promise like that. I wouldn't want sex to feel like an obligation. Of course, if I'm in a relationship with someone, I'd hope that I actually feel a desire to have sex with them in the first place, and I wouldn't have to worry about it feeling like an obligation. Sounds like a sad relationship to be in.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Wild said:


> I've noticed this pattern in a lot of people where they put a lot of emphasis on a certain moral (promises, for example) and then judge the fuck out of other people who don't take it as seriously as they do. And you know what I think? I think it's extremely foolish. People aren't here to live up to _your_ standards, because everyone has their own set.
> 
> If someone promises you they'll have sex with you at a certain time, alright. Go ahead, expect it from them. But when the time comes and you don't get any ass, you can't physically do anything about it. You can make a mental note of it, sure. Note that this person makes promises they don't keep, and move on. It doesn't necessarily make them a person of "extremely low character", it might just mean they don't put the same emphasis on promises that you do, or that they didn't mean it as seriously as you took it. Maybe it's not that the person in question is of low character for not living up to your personal standards, but you're just foolish for expecting them to?


if they don't put a strong emphasis on promises, then they don't put a strong emphasis on honesty and dependability, which means they have weak character. that's hardly even a matter of opinion at that point. so yes, I am going to be patronizing and judge people, because that's called being a judge of character.


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## Toru Okada (May 10, 2011)

Why would anyone trust a promise given to fulfill anything?


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Distortions said:


> Feeling sexually frustrated again? (Or still)


love, I've been sexually frustrated as long as I can remember. even during periods where I'm getting a lot of sex. I've made no claims otherwise lol



> Don't think I would ever be comfortable to make a promise like that.


good



> I wouldn't want sex to feel like an obligation. Of course, if I'm in a relationship with someone, I'd hope that I actually feel a desire to have sex with them in the first place, and I wouldn't have to worry about it feeling like an obligation. Sounds like a sad relationship to be in.


if someone in a relationship made a frivolous promise like that, I would dump their ass.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

You need to learn that people say all sorts of crap and don't follow through on their word. That's life. Take what people say with a pinch of salt or you will be forever disappointed.


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

@Swordsman of Mana
So basically the point is that keeping promises is important and all people should be aware of that and not make promises unless they truly mean it.
And that also applies to sex.
(Although imo talking about importance of promises and sex at the same time makes it unnecessarily complicated and controversial, it's just common sense, if you value responsible promise making then you value it in all situations)


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## Alpha_Orionis (Jan 18, 2015)

A promise is a promise, no matter what is at stake. People should not trample over their words just because they do not feel like it anymore. That means that i can just stop paying off my loan to the bank just because i do not feel like it anymore. 
People should think forward, and if one think that he/she will not be able to fulfill the promise then do not make a promise.


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## ShadowsRunner (Apr 24, 2013)

Sexual _interest_


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## Gilly (Apr 22, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I'd be a little disappointed, but yes, I would walk away. I have a strong admiration for people who are willing to take responsibility for their mistakes (Lord knows I do stupid things all the time). If I made a mistake like that, I would expect the other person to hold me to it too (it's not secret that I can come across a wee bit....forceful, sometimes, so I always respect people willing to point things out. mutual respect and assertiveness are crucial in any interaction)


Agreed. Last partner I had was like this, and the offer to back off alone was enough space to feel like I could move forward.

A tricky dynamic though. So long as you have respect for each other, and understanding, it's fine. 
Some types just clash much more though, and it's also hard when a very assertive person can't understand the feelings someone more submissive can feel. They often don't want to bend, they just either don't want to stand their ground, or they don't want the more assertive person to be offended if they actually won the battle. 

The idea of winning a fight just to win it, when I don't care much about the outcome, seems silly and pointless. 
I still don't want to be walked over, so I won't back down. 

./yay for rambling


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

MuChApArAdOx said:


> Your post sounds like something a 15yr old would say. How many adults do you know that make promises to have sex ? The whole post sounds weird, and for you to be whinning over a broken promise to have sex says so much about you. You need so much help, seriously, read your post over and over and over again. People don't owe you jack shit, nothing, nodda. It is their body and they don't only not owe you sex, they don't owe you any explaination either. So what are you going to do ? Cry and beg ? Would you enjoy having sex with people you know don't want to. Get over yourself and grow up.
> 
> This post is not about respect , it is about demands and control. You want that power over people, and if they say fuck you then what. Get over yourself, you're really not that Interesting , and perhaps you are not good in bed either.


B. I. N. G. O and Bingo was his name-o. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Sygma (Dec 19, 2014)

Neverontime said:


> You need to learn that people say all sorts of crap and don't follow through on their word. That's life. Take what people say with a pinch of salt or you will be forever disappointed.












Unreliable persons can go gently toy with themselves. I put high esteem into people talking the walk - walking the talk. It's not even about respect or not feeling like it or whatever. If you make a promise simply because you wanna shut the conversation down in a nice way, just get out already.

@i cant play the piano Wonderful avatar !


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## IDontThinkSo (Aug 24, 2011)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> okay, I get it, it's not ok to rape someone who says they will let someone have sex with you, but at the same time....it's fucked up to promise to have sex with someone and then just decide "nevermind, I don't feel like it". a promise is a promise, and that should mean something.


Promises hold a moral value when they're based on conditions, not predictions. "I'll do this tomorrow" is not a moral engagment, it's a bet.. No one knows what will happen tomorrow and there's no moral obligation to win a bet. "I'll do it, *if*" is the valid form. When your conditions aren't valid, you have to inform people before theirs are. Like, you ask someone to help if you fall, that person agrees and yet knows they won't respect that condition : they have to inform you before you fall. Keeping this information secret is betrayal, traitors have no right to say "no".


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## VacantPsalm (Dec 22, 2014)

I kind of want to start making promises with the sole intention of breaking them, just to watch the world burn.


I disagree that being loosy goosy with your words is a major part of societies' problems. Bad character can exist without slouching on your words, and slouching on your words can exist without bad character. It's a side effect, not the problem. This flavor of morals just puts a curtain over the issue, as opposed to solving anything.

Words are worthless. I guess I can admire your attempt to make them have weight, but it isn't going to happen. Nor do I want it to happen.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

This thread may have just convinced me further that relationships are horrifying and not at all worth it.

I still can't shake the feeling that some of this is blowing sexual agreements out of proportion. Like Kore's post wondering how a "promise of sex" would even come about, though others demonstrated with situations like "Were gonna have fun when you get home ".

Integrity and honesty and respect and all are important, sure, but I guess this just sounds like taking an informal comment and elevating it to some sacred vow your life-binding code of honor will require you to die for not fulfilling in keeping with your honor. Yes that's an exaggeration, but still. 

I don't see a problem, actually, with doing something to make up for backing out of sex plans. I think that seems fair - though good luck getting them to pay the equivalent of a cancelation fee! But, I think I might suspect reason why some people are calling this idea childish:

I get that OP's focus is more on the integrity of a promise and the value of keeping one's word than anything sex related. Unfortunately, that was the example used, and I believe it's one where different rules may apply at times. That's a problem for a few obvious reasons, one of which, at least in my mind, is that it's a pleasure activity. It isn't something actually vital, it isn't comparable to getting an important project done (where being flaky, dishonest etc actually would be an important problem). I guess it looks to me like picking one's battles, and if you're going to crusade against the decline of integrity... sex "promises" are a pathetically minor skirmish.

Now I know some people are going to point out how much of a need sex is: fine, I'm just presenting an alternative view. Agreements about sex just seem like fairly minor, unimportant things to worry about.


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## vaira (Feb 8, 2016)

@Scientiaomniset
You already wrote everything I wanted to write.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

Sygma said:


> Unreliable persons can go gently toy with themselves. I put high esteem into people talking the walk - walking the talk. It's not even about respect or not feeling like it or whatever. If you make a promise simply because you wanna shut the conversation down in a nice way, just get out already.


There's a big difference between what people '_should_' do and what people actually do. It's something I learned the hard way and whining and moaning about it won't make any difference. 
If people were held to their word to the extent the op is suggesting, then they wouldn't make those promises and the op might just discover he gets even less sex as a result of that. It will simply be a 'no' from the outset because they're not sure enough.


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## Korra (Feb 28, 2015)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> 1) it's not one way. they can and should have the same expectations of me if I make a promise
> 2) you would be mistaken if you believe this is reserved for sexual relationships. I expect _everyone_ in my life to keep promises. there is no room in my life for people without integrity.


On point #2, you leave me a bit perplexed. Isn't having the collateral punishment stuff just unnecessary if you say you have "no room for people without integrity"? The moment a promise is broken, shouldn't that mean, to you, that a break up is in order? Collateral punishments just keeps said person in your life. 
Plus, I would imagine it be very rare if someone came into you life and was all cool with that 'contract'. If such person is cool with it, then it's not really a punishment to begin with. If the punishment serves as a punishment to said person, then it would just breed resentment and deteriorate.


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## Sunn (Mar 12, 2014)

@Korra

I was secretly hoping this was a trollthread but I've noticed it isn't. Scary stuff.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

MeteorShadow said:


> Sexual _interest_


clever :tongue:


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Red Panda said:


> Yeah but I forgot to comment on the "they will give up something in return if they don't" part, sorry. It's still the same, I consider it to be forceful if someone decides to not have sex eventually and they have to give something up. Even if it's things like, "I'll take you to dinner instead". Making it forceful and a "contract" is detrimental to the relationship and I think it will only breed resentment if things like that happen frequently. If the other person tells me on their own, that they don't feel like having sex even if they told me we would and they take the initiative to do something else instead it's fine, but I also won't accept if they tell me "I owe you a favor instead", I don't like "business-y" type of give-and-take in my relationships.


if someone feels resentment at being held to keep their word, then that person is immature. not someone I want to date (though, depending on other factors, I might still want to sleep with them lol)


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Korra said:


> On point #2, you leave me a bit perplexed. Isn't having the collateral punishment stuff just unnecessary if you say you have "no room for people without integrity"? The moment a promise is broken, shouldn't that mean, to you, that a break up is in order? Collateral punishments just keeps said person in your life.
> Plus, I would imagine it be very rare if someone came into you life and was all cool with that 'contract'. If such person is cool with it, then it's not really a punishment to begin with. If the punishment serves as a punishment to said person, then it would just breed resentment and deteriorate.


this situation does not involve people I'm officially dating. more often it's something like "I really like you, but we live like 3 hours away, so seeing you once a week is not enough for me to get tied down". things like that. if someone in a relationship doesn't want to fuck me, I don't date them.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Neverontime said:


> There's a big difference between what people '_should_' do and what people actually do. It's something I learned the hard way and whining and moaning about it won't make any difference.
> If people were held to their word to the extent the op is suggesting, then they wouldn't make those promises and the op might just discover he gets even less sex as a result of that. It will simply be a 'no' from the outset because they're not sure enough.


I don't need a definitive yes or no answer immediately (that's weird as fuck. I am far too gentle a lover to have a policy that creepy and aggressive :laughing: ). but if you're going to make a promise, back that shit up.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

VacantPsalm said:


> I kind of want to start making promises with the sole intention of breaking them, just to watch the world burn.
> I disagree that being loosy goosy with your words is a major part of societies' problems. Bad character can exist without slouching on your words, and slouching on your words can exist without bad character. It's a side effect, not the problem. This flavor of morals just puts a curtain over the issue, as opposed to solving anything.


1) just because "bad character can exist without slouching on your words" does not mean that "slouching on your words isn't a display of bad character". someone who beats his children but does not rape women has bad character. that does not mean that raping women isn't also a sign of bad character.
2) the basic assumption you're making is that society having morals does not solve anything. morals are why killing is illegal, public education is free (at least up to 18 in developed countries) and (middle class and above) people can live without the fear of people stealing their property. social/moral pressure to keep your promises has the same benefit. any kind of social interaction requires a trust that someone will, at least for the most part, keep their word. 



> Words are worthless. I guess I can admire your attempt to make them have weight, but it isn't going to happen. Nor do I want it to happen.


bullshit. words are the only means by which you can trust someone. when an employee tells her boss she will have the sales spreadsheet ready by Thursday morning, she expects him to do it. when a mother tells her son that she promises she will take him to his favorite restaurant, he expects her to do it.


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## Korra (Feb 28, 2015)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> *this situation does not involve people I'm officially dating*. more often it's something like "I really like you, but we live like 3 hours away, so seeing you once a week is not enough for me to get tied down". things like that. if someone in a relationship doesn't want to fuck me, I don't date them.


Okay okay...

I've misunderstood the context of your OP this whole time then. Er, but still, this contract stuff sounds illogical in both the dating world and this peculiar specific situation. Who in their right mind would agree to such thing if there's really nothing serious to begin with? Like, how's this obligation for sex conceived if there's not an established agreement you two are an item? 

Even more so, the other word is bond stuff (non-sex parts), doesn't sound like a pratical concept either. "Hey _friend_, if you bail on me last minute to go to the movies this Friday, I'm coming over and taking away your TV if you don't uphold your promise!" "Okay, cool, see there on Friday!"

It sounds comical to me actually. :laughing:


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Morfinyon said:


> Did someone get ditched recently? :^)
> You can't just force people to do things just because they said they'd do them. That's fucked up.


no, the government does this every day when it enforces contracts.

Edit: and to answer your question, no, not recently.


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## Morfy (Dec 3, 2013)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> no, the government does this every day when it enforces contracts.
> 
> Edit: and to answer your question, no, not recently.


A contract is much different from a promise. If you want to have sex with someone on the base of a contract you're going to have to find a prostitute.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

Sygma said:


> It almost never happen so you shouldn't make that kind of truly wrong statement. Thanks tho  it is totally about the people you're surrounding yourself with, and how you come across to them aswell.


How old are you? Seriously, I can only imagine you haven't interacted with many people. Your view is idealistic and not realistic.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Morfinyon said:


> A contract is much different from a promise. If you want to have sex with someone on the base of a contract you're going to have to find a prostitute.


from a moral perspective, there is little difference between the two other that breach of a promise entails greater disrespect.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> yup. seduction is part of the game. making false promises is not
> 
> 
> that's entirely different. romantic love is the most sacred bond you can share with a person (I don't care if you're religious or not). it is the only time when one can feel truly vulnerable, merge completely with another and experience feelings of magic. if they said that they loved me just to get me in bed, I would psychologically destroy them with the precision and sadistic pleasure of Hannibal Lecter and the vindictive wrath of Cersei Lannister. by the time I was done with them, they would be warding off invasive suicidal thoughts, riddled with existential guilt and fired from their job/failing their classes. preferably, they would be turned into an insane asylum where they would spend the rest of the miserable remnants of their life _begging_ for death, only to be denied the opportunity and shoved back into their cell, alone with their demons. death is too good for such a person. only the torment that comes from those demons eating away at his heart, his mind and, eventually, his body is hell enough on earth to repay the injustice of leading me to believe that someone _finally_ loved me the way that I've yearned for my entire life.


Whoa! 
Have you told your therapist this stuff? It's rather ott for me to discuss. :wink:


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Neverontime said:


> Whoa!
> Have you told your therapist this stuff? It's rather ott for me to discuss. :wink:


I'm going to wrap this in spoiler tags for those who want to skip over what could potentially turn into some very over-sensitive bullshit :tongue:

* *




I've spoken with friends who were psyche majors and experts in MBTI and Enneagram (we're all kind of mutual therapists for each other). it's helped tremendously, because all of us are incredibly frustrated either sexually or romantically, so it's been incredibly beneficial for us to vent and discuss possible solutions.

It's worth noting that just getting sex or dates is not hard for me. I get offers on a semi-regular basis and have been on many dates in the past 6 months or so.....but I am picky. I need more than that, and I'm constantly searching for that person which whom I can share cosmic chemistry, mutual love and respect, 3-hour weekend cuddle sessions and sex like angels dancing in a meteor shower (there is also a decent amount of anxiety and effort centered around sexual desirability, as I don't expect to get something for nothing. it needs to go both ways). 

for the most part, my external demeanor is relatively jaded, rational, even a bit rigid, but under that is a great deal of anger, frustration, desirability-related anxiety and hurt. when I was younger, I had more difficulty processing it and basically spent most of my time pissed off in my room because I was constantly pissed off and having violent thoughts, but wanted to make sure that I didn't end up hurting anyone (I kind of just accepted that no one was ever going to love me, and for the most part I didn't care....but I just wanted one person who understood me, would truly love me and whom I could love, protect and cherish in return). as I've grown more self-aware of my true feelings, regulating and coping with them has gotten easier (I've also relatively high self-esteem, which makes me a hell of a lot more stable than I would have been).


 

PS: this is why I have been trying to return my 4 fix to the Enneagram store for quite some time.....


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I'm going to wrap this in spoiler tags for those who want to skip over what could potentially turn into some very over-sensitive bullshit :tongue:
> 
> * *
> 
> ...



* *




I would suggest that you're looking outside of yourself for something which only exists inside of yourself. When you find it inside yourself, the yearning and the frustration is minimized. That's the potential solution I would offer from my experience anyway, make of it what you will :wink:


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## MaggieMay (Dec 27, 2014)

This is the silliest thing I have read today.
If you treat sex, even promises of sex, as harshly as "You owe me, pay up" then you have some serious issues you need to deal with. Treating people like objects and insisting they "owe" you an intimate part of themselves and what *should be* an intimate experience is extremely selfish and takes the intimacy right out of the experience altogether. If my husband tried to tell me I owed him my body because I changed my mind after "I promised" would make me feel like he *ONLY* values my body and not my feelings. Nobody in their right minds wants to be with someone who undermines their feelings and treats sex like an object to be obtained or acts so coldly and objective about it. Maybe they thought you weren't worthy of such a gift since you feel this way? You should check your motives because you sound like you do not value the other person very much, only your need of them. 

The human sex drive can be complicated and people aren't always in the mood even when they feel they want to be so holding someone to a promise of sex is completely ridiculous because that is not how sex drive or our sense of desire works. It's an odd thing to promise and I don't think it means a person is weak just because they choose not to have sex with you. People are allowed to change their minds, especially about sex. I don't think you can compare promises of sex with actual promises because sex contains so much more than words and it can all depend on your emotions, environment, your psychological state, and your body's ability to feel aroused in that specific moment. It's not an exchange, it's an experience. 
I would find someone to be more honest for refusing after "promising" rather than faking to appease their partner. 

Just my two cents.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I'm going to wrap this in spoiler tags for those who want to skip over what could potentially turn into some very over-sensitive bullshit :tongue:
> 
> * *
> 
> ...


Well, perhaps you should go to a therapist and have consistent sessions. Talking to others can help, but real therapy doesn't compare. It's a pity to have your issues prolonged because you don't want to go, for whatever reason, to someone who is helping people overcome such problems every day.
The way you go about this thread reminds me of my very unhealthy teen years, when my Te was all over the place making me miserable by wanting to have everything under "control" and have people act as I wanted them to, in a "perfect" way.


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## Morfy (Dec 3, 2013)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> from a moral perspective, there is little difference between the two other that breach of a promise entails greater disrespect.


Sure you could argue that it's morally wrong to break a promise but it's morally even worse to then blackmail the person just because they've changed their mind. Sexual promises should be taken with a grain of salt and since respect is really important in all sexual relationships you should respect such a decision.


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

I think it's irresponsible to promise someone else something that's at the whims of something as primal and irrational as sexuality

Solution is to not make promises that will be hell to keep


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## perpetuallyreticent (Sep 24, 2014)

See, the problem here lies within the expectation being the foremost important thing here. Of course keeping your word is a huge thing as an adult, but respecting someone's bodily autonomy is always more important than you feeling dejected because someone wasn't big enough to keep their word.

A promise becomes null and void when attached to that promise is someone's body. 

How can you take a promise like that seriously and then when a person changes their mind, it's them that's at fault? What are you going to do? Whine about how _they promised_ when they take it back? This question seriously takes me back a bit. It's really kind of outrageous.


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## perpetuallyreticent (Sep 24, 2014)

Alpha_Orionis said:


> A promise is a promise, no matter what is at stake. People should not trample over their words just because they do not feel like it anymore. That means that i can just stop paying off my loan to the bank just because i do not feel like it anymore.
> People should think forward, and if one think that he/she will not be able to fulfill the promise then do not make a promise.


well _bruh_, paying a loan isn't the same as having sexual intercourse with somebody.

that's not something that's only taught in sex ed, right? I thought it was one of those lil common sense thingies.


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## Alpha_Orionis (Jan 18, 2015)

perpetuallyreticent said:


> well _bruh_, paying a loan isn't the same as having sexual intercourse with somebody.
> 
> that's not something that's only taught in sex ed, right? I thought it was one of those lil common sense thingies.


I know it isn't the same, but in both cases there is a commitment one has to fulfill. It is a promise def. "a declaration or assurance that one will do something or that a particular thing will happen", ergo one has to fulfill it. 
It is common sense not to promise something one can not fulfill.


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## Annzihana (Jan 29, 2016)

Why would you promise sex in the first place?


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## kittenklyn (Nov 2, 2015)

MaggieMay said:


> This is the silliest thing I have read today.
> If you treat sex, even promises of sex, as harshly as "You owe me, pay up" then you have some serious issues you need to deal with. Treating people like objects and insisting they "owe" you an intimate part of themselves and what *should be* an intimate experience is extremely selfish and takes the intimacy right out of the experience altogether. If my husband tried to tell me I owed him my body because I changed my mind after "I promised" would make me feel like he *ONLY* values my body and not my feelings. Nobody in their right minds wants to be with someone who undermines their feelings and treats sex like an object to be obtained or acts so coldly and objective about it. Maybe they thought you weren't worthy of such a gift since you feel this way? You should check your motives because you sound like you do not value the other person very much, only your need of them.
> 
> The human sex drive can be complicated and people aren't always in the mood even when they feel they want to be so holding someone to a promise of sex is completely ridiculous because that is not how sex drive or our sense of desire works. It's an odd thing to promise and I don't think it means a person is weak just because they choose not to have sex with you. People are allowed to change their minds, especially about sex. I don't think you can compare promises of sex with actual promises because sex contains so much more than words and it can all depend on your emotions, environment, your psychological state, and your body's ability to feel aroused in that specific moment. It's not an exchange, it's an experience.
> ...


THIS!

Promising to have sex with someone is messed up. The whole thing is messed up- why does one need to promise that? Who is demanding that promise? Somebody has an unhealthy relationship if this is the case! It sounds like the relationship has died, pr is manipulative on one side. It's just a bad situation to be in. The biggest question is: Who would want to have sex with someone that doesn't want to have sex with them?? 

That, to me, is the biggest turn off ever. And if my partner doesn't want to make love with me for no reason, or if sex has become some sort of leverage, then its time to move on. I would never want to make Anyone promise sex to me. It feels like a bargain and not like love.


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## kittenklyn (Nov 2, 2015)

Annzihana said:


> Why would you promise sex in the first place?


Not me. It just doesn't feel like love at that point, right?


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## Annzihana (Jan 29, 2016)

@Kittenklyn I completely agree to your post above, and I find it ridiculous that this even exists to discuss.


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## PariahParty (Feb 11, 2016)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> strawman, I would demand the money, not the sex. I don't want sex from someone like that, I want to make an example of them


Swordsman, you yourself said that the promise of sex was analogous to a bank loan, and that collateral should be taken to make sure the other party pays up. This quite clearly implies that you would use collateral to force sex on someone. You talk about disrespect and making examples out of people, suggesting your entitlement to hold power over people, which just screams insecurity. This is about you trying to punish someone for the humiliation you feel at being rejected, and justifying it with puerile, quixotic delusions about "words being bonds".


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

PariahParty said:


> Swordsman, you yourself said that the promise of sex was analogous to a bank loan, and that collateral should be taken to make sure the other party pays up.


good so far. 



> This quite clearly implies that you would use collateral to force sex on someone.


no, it implies "you made a promise to pick one of two options. the choice is up to you" (at that point, I'd prefer the money)



> You talk about disrespect and making examples out of people, suggesting your entitlement to hold power over people, which just screams insecurity. This is about you trying to punish someone for the humiliation you feel at being rejected, and justifying it with puerile, quixotic delusions about "words being bonds".


by that definition, pretty much every every banker, every mob boss, 95% of rappers and anyone else interested in (justified or unjustified) power is "insecure". if that's the case, I'm hardly insulted, because that would basically mean being insecure was necessary in order to actually acquire power and make it to even a respectable standard of living. 


on a totally non-sex related note, I am interested on elaborating on this general life philosophy :happy:
I have beaten people up on more than one occasion (though none for sexually related reasons. I would have no interest sexually in such a person and am probably the most mellow lover you will ever meet) when they decided they could get away with not upholding promises, and I would enjoy do so again. fortunately, I seldom have to for several reasons
- making an example of people is quite effective. people who don't understand respect understand fear quite well
- in the business world, shitty credit and seizure of bank collateral are enough to make most people pay up =)
- if you don't pay your bills, no one will want to do business with you
- most high-performing individuals have a solid concept of respect and tend to honor their agreements (as opposed to low performers, who make excuses)
- my high standards of character and intolerance of disrespect may leave me with few friends, but that's a good thing, because the ones I have left are amazing, virtuous people with whom I can share relationships of mutual support and respect. never waste your time associating or interacting with trash unless it's 100% necessary.

of course, I'm a fairly understanding person. if you get have unexpected medical expenses, get your hours cut or have a car repair, of course I can wait a little while longer _if you tell me_. but whether you are relieved from your promise or not is up to me, not you. if you just decide "I'm not going to pay up", then you have decided to disrespect me, and if I don't punish you, you will make me an example of someone who allows people to be flaky, unreliable and irreverent. I will never allow that. you will respect me or you will fear me. whether you choose the Dark Side or the Light Side is entirely up to you.

_"A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back. "
~Proverbs 26:3_


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## Flamme et Citron (Aug 26, 2015)

Sounds like you made a girl feel uncomfortable and you’re butthurt because you didn’t get the sex you were "promised". Which if anything proves you’re a selfish douchebag and she was right not to bang you. If you actually liked her you would want her to feel comfortable and safe.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

kittenklyn said:


> THIS!
> Promising to have sex with someone is messed up. The whole thing is messed up- why does one need to promise that? Who is demanding that promise?


as assumption posed as a question is still an assumption...
a promise which is coerced is not a promise at all. it's saying what you need to say to survive or avoid serious injury. _however_, if you make a promise freely of your own volition, then you have incurred the responsibility which comes with that promise.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Flamme et Citron said:


> Sounds like you made a girl feel uncomfortable and you’re butthurt because you didn’t get the sex you were "promised". Which if anything proves you’re a selfish douchebag and she was right not to bang you. If you actually liked her you would want her to feel comfortable and safe.


.........more projection. you should read more careful before you jump to lulzy moralistic conclusions
PS: I'm gay


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## kittenklyn (Nov 2, 2015)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> as assumption posed as a question is still an assumption...
> a promise which is coerced is not a promise at all. it's saying what you need to say to survive or avoid serious injury. _however_, if you make a promise freely of your own volition, then you have incurred the responsibility which comes with that promise.


You and I both know I'm referencing a situation that doesn't involve a rapist or anything nonconsensual.

My question still remains at "who would ever want to even have sex with someone who promises them sex?" And "who would even promise sex to anyone?" The only contexts that make that sensible s if one or both parties have something wrong going on. 

I just do not understand that. I would NEVER want to have someone promise sex to me, I would just feel weird or gross. And then if they did (I would never take that promise seriously because it makes me very uncomfortable, nor would I ever ask that someone promise me that) I would never take them seriously. 

Can you give me tue context of when this happened to you or another person?


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

kittenklyn said:


> You and I both know I'm referencing a situation that doesn't involve a rapist or anything nonconsensual.


I didn't really know that (it makes you a minority in this thread), but I'm glad we're on the same page there. 



> My question still remains at "who would ever want to even have sex with someone who promises them sex?" And "who would even promise sex to anyone?" The only contexts that make that sensible s if one or both parties have something wrong going on.


and my answer is: "not me". the cancellation fee is a means of 
1) getting them to take it seriously if they decide to make a serious promise
2) making an example of them
and
3) let's be honest, a bit of revenge 



> I just do not understand that. I would NEVER want to have someone promise sex to me, I would just feel weird or gross. And then if they did (I would never take that promise seriously because it makes me very uncomfortable, nor would I ever ask that someone promise me that) I would never take them seriously.
> Can you give me tue context of when this happened to you or another person?


one example for several years back: a suave British boy and I had been talking for about 2 years online. it wasn't sexual at first, but he was so suave, well spoken, a great conversationalist (and yes, the posh accent helped.....). in retrospect, it was kind of pathetic to fall for someone online, but we talked for hours, had tons of overlapping interests and even had the same political views (which doesn't sound shocking until you consider how many gay men are Marxist enough to make Barack Obama look like Milton Friedman :dry: ). then one day, he said "I don't say this often....but I love you, and one way or another, I promise I'll find a way to consummate it"......eventually I realized he simply used me as a combination of entertainment and living vicariously through me the relationship he never got to have with his father (who was a rather ruthless Sp 8w7 businessman and almost never around when he was a boy).


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## kittenklyn (Nov 2, 2015)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I didn't really know that (it makes you a minority in this thread), but I'm glad we're on the same page there.
> 
> 
> and my answer is: "not me". the cancellation fee is a means of
> ...


Okay cool, thank you for the example! Before I get to that: I think all three of your reasons for wanting someone to pay up on their promise are not alright. People are jerks sometimes, but you have to deal with it personally and not become aggressive with them, otherwise you're just as bad as they are. Whatever wrong they do to you, (and believe me If anyone knows what that feels like, its me), you have to be the better person, no matter how hard you think that is. Getting revenge, teaching them a lesson, or any other reason like that only shows ones desire to be in control. It shows manipulative behaviors, not loving ones. 

As for your example; yeah that sucks. And that guys a douche if he was just playing you around. Of course, id say you might have been naive, but the ultimate fault lies with this British kid. It was wrong of him to say things like that and not mean it, and for anyone that has been burned like that I'm sure they are just as angry as you are. But in this scenario, there is still no reason to ever make that boy follow through with what he said unless the reason is malicious. But once anything is done for that reason, the perpetrator loses all of my respect. They become the same person: Equal parts victim and criminal.

The only righteous option is to move on. Forgiveness makes that easier too, but you have to drop them out of your life and leave the past with them. Otherwise, revenge will sweetly roll around in your mouth until you act on it- but everyone will tell you the same thing: Getting then to "pay" for hurting you will not make you feel any better. I know this very well. 

My conclusion remains: You shouldn't promise to have sex with someone, and if someone promises sex to you you shouldn't be upset when they take it back. I think your example has much less to do with sex as it does with heartbreak. And I know what that feels like: You're not alone there.


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

Who in the fucking world are the people promising sex and taking such promises seriously lol. The fuck? Oh Lord preserve me...


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

kittenklyn said:


> Okay cool, thank you for the example! Before I get to that: I think all three of your reasons for wanting someone to pay up on their promise are not alright. People are jerks sometimes, but you have to deal with it personally and not become aggressive with them, otherwise you're just as bad as they are. Whatever wrong they do to you, (and believe me If anyone knows what that feels like, its me), you have to be the better person, no matter how hard you think that is. Getting revenge, teaching them a lesson, or any other reason like that only shows ones desire to be in control. It shows manipulative behaviors, not loving ones.
> 
> As for your example; yeah that sucks. And that guys a douche if he was just playing you around. Of course, id say you might have been naive, but the ultimate fault lies with this British kid. It was wrong of him to say things like that and not mean it, and for anyone that has been burned like that I'm sure they are just as angry as you are. But in this scenario, there is still no reason to ever make that boy follow through with what he said unless the reason is malicious. But once anything is done for that reason, the perpetrator loses all of my respect. They become the same person: Equal parts victim and criminal.
> 
> ...


.....this is where we are different. there is a difference between justified vengeance vs hurting and innocent person.


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## kittenklyn (Nov 2, 2015)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> .....this is where we are different. there is a difference between justified vengeance vs hurting and innocent person.


Justified vengeance? That doesn't exist. And I do a lot of activist work with human trafficked survivors, I know a thing or two about revenge. Your experience, even though it may be painful for you, does not merit any sort of revenge. The very fact that your impulse is to attack them (which is what your suggesting) shows how little you actually cared for them anyway. It's just childish to feel like you are entitled to anything at all, even if its promised to you. This is real life man, Grow up and leave your pity party- otherwise you'll be pretty miserable. 

Conclusion: No one owes you crap; the sooner you accept this, the better.


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

kittenklyn said:


> Justified vengeance? That doesn't exist. And I do a lot of activist work with human trafficked survivors, I know a thing or two about revenge. Your experience, even though it may be painful for you, does not merit any sort of revenge. The very fact that your impulse is to attack them (which is what your suggesting) shows how little you actually cared for them anyway. It's just childish to feel like you are entitled to anything at all, even if its promised to you. This is real life man, Grow up and leave your pity party- otherwise you'll be pretty miserable.
> 
> Conclusion: No one owes you crap; the sooner you accept this, the better.


I would normally agree, but when you get into social contracts, those are a choice and it's ethically a shitty thing to do to make promises if you can't keep them.

I think seeking to make an example of someone who makes an ethical trespass a perfectly valid option. If you're doing it to "Get over something" emotionally, then-- no-- it's likely not going to help you. But, if it's for a sense of "I did my best to remedy this or prevent this or make a public example of someone": Yes, that sort of "vengeful" act can be justified.


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> .....this is where we are different. there is a difference between justified vengeance vs hurting and innocent person.


Ah, but what of the vengeance they may turn on your? Is the eye for the eye Ok with you? Justified vengeance upon justified vengeance! Wow, that's one hell of a show! I don't think you should meet your match in this belief of yours.

I, so, disagree. It's not worth the energy the anger uses with vengeance. It only hurts more.

Sounds like you really need to figure out exactly why you're so angry with your self, since you feel vengeance is justifiable. You say you have a soft side too. Well, if that's true, don't you think that you will pay one hell of price within your self, if you were ever to act out your vengeance... exactly who will be hurting more? Cause, guess what, the other person will walk away sooner than you. Hell, they're going to run from what I read in this thread.


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Kerik_S said:


> I would normally agree, but when you get into social contracts, those are a choice and it's ethically a shitty thing to do to make promises if you can't keep them.
> 
> I think seeking to make an example of someone who makes an ethical trespass a perfectly valid option. If you're doing it to "Get over something" emotionally, then-- no-- it's likely not going to help you. But, if it's for a sense of "I did my best to remedy this or prevent this or make a public example of someone": Yes, that sort of "vengeful" act can be justified.


You mean shaming is ok?


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

Dalien said:


> Ah, but what of the vengeance they may turn on your? Is the eye for the eye Ok with you? Justified vengeance upon justified vengeance! Wow, that's one hell of a show! I don't think you should meet your match in this belief of yours.


What kind of ethic uses retaliation to _justify_ retaliation...?

I think he's talking about creating an overarching system of accountability and basically shaming the people for breaking it in order to instill social order.

It's no different than retributive justice.

　


Dalien said:


> I, so, disagree. It's not worth the energy the anger uses with vengeance. It only hurts more.


That whole "anger = makes it worse" thing is such bullshit to me. We're on a website that's predicated on the speculated existence of at least 16 different personality types, so this is the last place to assume that (A) Anger hurts, or (B) Anger is simply masked pain.

　


Dalien said:


> Sounds like you really need to figure out exactly why you're so angry with your self, since you feel vengeance is justifiable.


Is the fact that I'm peeved at you having such an easily-cheap-shot'able view on anger indicative of some deep-seated character-flaw-level anger?

Where does it end?

At what point are your beliefs about anger just tools you use to dismiss other people who are more assertive than you? or even those that just maneuver their boundaries between people differently than you do?

　


Dalien said:


> You say you have a soft side too. Well, if that's true, don't you think that you will pay one hell of price within your self, if you were ever to act out your vengeance... exactly who will be hurting more? Cause, guess what, the other person will walk away sooner than you. Hell, they're going to run from what I read in this thread.


Your beliefs are just as self-serving as his. Get off your high horse.


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

Dalien said:


> You mean shaming is ok?


Yes. If you can't live with other people having an opinion about your actions, you may as well just live in a hole.

I'd pick shame as a social control mechanism over this guilt bullshit that assigns intrinsic character flaws to things, like you're doing.

All you're doing is guilting him using armchair psychology.

　
Shame = Having the person acknowledge that they've broken a social contract (Fe)

Guilt = Trying to force the person to believe that what they've done is intrinsically wrong (Fi)


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Kerik_S said:


> I would normally agree, but when you get into social contracts, those are a choice and it's ethically a shitty thing to do to make promises if you can't keep them.
> 
> I think seeking to make an example of someone who makes an ethical trespass a perfectly valid option. If you're doing it to "Get over something" emotionally, then-- no-- it's likely not going to help you. But, if it's for a sense of "I did my best to remedy this or prevent this or make a public example of someone": Yes, that sort of "vengeful" act can be justified.


exactly 



kittenklyn said:


> Justified vengeance? That doesn't exist. And I do a lot of activist work with human trafficked survivors, I know a thing or two about revenge. Your experience, even though it may be painful for you, does not merit any sort of revenge. The very fact that your impulse is to attack them (which is what your suggesting) shows how little you actually cared for them anyway. It's just childish to feel like you are entitled to anything at all, even if its promised to you. This is real life man, Grow up and leave your pity party- otherwise you'll be pretty miserable.
> Conclusion: No one owes you crap; the sooner you accept this, the better.


several things are wrong with this
1) most notably, pacifism is the pinnacle of slave morality and fair world fallacy. if you want to make someone respond, reward and punishment usually work best
2) it's also incredibly _boring_. life offers few justifications to indulge our primitive desires, and such times should be enjoyed rather than avoided (within proportion. the punishment has to fit the crime, but enjoying the punishment is a good thing, not a bad thing). 
3) it's true that I would not want to have sex with someone I didn't care about, but saying "you want to hurt someone, therefore that shows you cared". I have wanted to beat the piss out of countless rapists and child abusers, but I can promise you I did not care for them.
4) if someone makes me a promise to do something, then yes, they do owe it to me. it doesn't have anything to do with "pity", it's called fairness and expecting personal responsibility (I gave you the benefit of the doubt previously about understanding what I was saying, it appears I was mistaken...).


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## BlackDog (Jan 6, 2012)

You can't really promise something like sex the way you'd promise to take the garbage out tomorrow. It shouldn't be a tedious chore you have to partake in. If someone says "I'm too tired, I promise we'll have sex tomorrow" I'm afraid you really can't hold the person to that. You should probably treat it as an intention, rather than a literal promise. You can always masturbate or something. 

Having sex with someone who doesn't want to or demanding reparations of some kind when they reneg on their word rubs me the wrong way. Sounds like a very strange relationship, that's bordering on prostitution.


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Kerik_S said:


> Yes. If you can't live with other people having an opinion about your actions, you may as well just live in a hole.
> 
> I'd pick shame as a social control mechanism over this guilt bullshit that assigns intrinsic character flaws to things, like you're doing.
> 
> ...


I see. Just one thing... this is where we are going to differ. I, personally, would discuss the situation but would not expect/demand a change. Shaming, guilt, nor vengeance, will change nothing, except damage the relationship even further. Live and learn, eh.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Dalien said:


> Ah, but what of the vengeance they may turn on your? Is the eye for the eye Ok with you? Justified vengeance upon justified vengeance! Wow, that's one hell of a show! I don't think you should meet your match in this belief of yours.


.....thank you for demonstrating that you (like almost everyone else), does not get the very thing you are trying to respond to.




> I, so, disagree. It's not worth the energy the anger uses with vengeance. It only hurts more.


you make it sound like being vengeful takes so much "energy". yes, if you're stupid and obsess over it it does, but _repression_ of anger takes about 10X more energy (I have a strong 1 fix. I could write books on repression......). 



> Sounds like you really need to figure out exactly why you're so angry with your self, since you feel vengeance is justifiable. You say you have a soft side too. Well, if that's true, don't you think that you will pay one hell of price within your self, if you were ever to act out your vengeance... exactly who will be hurting more? Cause, guess what, the other person will walk away sooner than you. Hell, they're going to run from what I read in this thread.


while we're on the subject of "expending energy", I'm sure your thinly veiled attempt to seem spiritually/emotionally superior to me took quite a bit out of you. :laughing:


since you don't seem to be getting it though, I will explain it more simply:
1) I have a soft side for people who display high character and real kindness 
2) I do NOT have a soft side for people with low character (including breaking promises nonchalantly and acting as if they should not be held accountable), people who are passive-aggressive, people who are fake, people who about the innocent or, especially, people who abuse children. going with the most extreme of these: I would not feel a fucking _drop_ of remorse or internal loathing if I hurt someone who abused children. If I could make a living being a bounty hunter who killed child abusers for a living, I would be proud of my work and enjoy the shit out of it :laughing:

being "soft" with everyone does not make you more emotionally mature, more enlightened or more happy, it makes you a doormat for other people's actions and energy to hurt you because you lack solid boundaries and it means you are casting pearls before swine.


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

Dalien said:


> I see. Just one thing... this is where we are going to differ. I, personally, would discuss the situation but would not expect/demand a change. Shaming, nor vengeance, will change nothing, except damage the relationship even further. Live and learn, eh.


What if you're more interested in society-at-large adhering to the ethic, rather than just the micro relationship? You'll certainly feel better about your presence as a social creature through shaming if you're more macro-oriented.

Discussion is for reconciliation, not retribution.

If you want retribution, you're not going to feel that the damage to the relationship creates such cognitive dissonance for you that you would feel unjustified.

　
I think you may be conflating "shaming" in the Fe sense with the colloquial version of "shaming" that is common in social justice discourse that is heavily influenced by _guilt culture_.

Having someone recognize that they broke an ethic that exists for the good of all (or at least the agreed-upon good of the majority) in a context that you established was open to punitive measures-- why bother with an explicit promise if you're not making it known that there may be a sense of failure attached to a lack of follow-through?--...

... That's not the same thing as what people are calling "shaming" left and right.

　
"Fat shaming" for example, is actually closer to "fat guilting".

"You should feel ashamed of yourself because being fat is the result of a character flaw" = basically, "You should feel guilty that you let yourself get fat."

Very Fi.

　
I don't have a problem with enforcing "Fe" shaming because it's agreed-upon before hand, or by a tacit enough agreement to constitute adherence (like laws, for example: tacit agreement upon them by making any appeals to its authority in your nation-state).


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

BlackDog said:


> You can't really promise something like sex the way you'd promise to take the garbage out tomorrow. It shouldn't be a tedious chore you have to partake in. If someone says "I'm too tired, I promise we'll have sex tomorrow" I'm afraid you really can't hold the person to that. You should probably treat it as an intention, rather than a literal promise. You can always masturbate or something.
> Having sex with someone who doesn't want to or demanding reparations of some kind when they reneg on their word rubs me the wrong way. Sounds like a very strange relationship, that's bordering on prostitution.


I don't recall putting a time frame on it. I can't just wake someone up in the middle of the night whenever I want and be like "you promised me sex! I want it NOW!!! :angry: ", that would be bloody ridiculous. I simply want them to mean what they say and be careful before they lead people on.


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> .....thank you for demonstrating that you (like almost everyone else), does not get the very thing you are trying to respond to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Enlightened, spirituality and superiority? What the hell? 

Nothing better to say?

I'm just going to chuckle and walk away and probably piss you off even more.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Dalien said:


> You mean shaming is ok?


in many instances, yes, absolutely. some examples include
- shaming people for groping women
- teachers shaming students who were lazy and didn't do their homework
- shaming children when they attempt to bully other children
- shaming people who say racist or homophobic bullshit**

**actually, this one is kind of an exception. imo, the goal here is to simply allow them to debate and make them realize their opinions are stupid. they will be much more likely to change that way (shaming people for personal beliefs doesn't usually work as well, especially if they're deeply held. what you have to do is shove it in their face that what they're doing is clearly not working, presenting a double standard and interfering with other value they hold like fairness)


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## johnnyyukon (Nov 8, 2013)

what the hell.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Dalien said:


> Enlightened, spirituality and superiority? What the hell?
> Nothing better to say?


...you responded with zero content and ask me why I have nothing better to say? 



> I'm just going to chuckle and walk away and probably piss you off even more.


that's generally a prudent thing to do when you've just been called out on particularly egregious levels of passive-aggression and false-helpfulness


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## piano (May 21, 2015)

johnnyyukon said:


> what the hell.


right


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I don't recall putting a time frame on it. I can't just wake someone up in the middle of the night whenever I want and be like "you promised me sex! I want it NOW!!! :angry: ", that would be bloody ridiculous. I simply want them to mean what they say and be careful before they lead people on.


Well, now, I finally understand your point, but it is not what you said through out the thread. I agree leading people on is wrong, but to exact revenge doesn't change it. Damn!


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Dalien said:


> Well, now, I finally understand your point, but it is not what you said through out the thread.


progress has been made. 



> I agree leading people on is wrong, but to exact revenge doesn't change it. Damn!


it can't change the past, but it incentivizes people to think twice before crossing you in the future (and it's also fun).


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> ...you responded with zero content and ask me why I have nothing better to say?
> 
> 
> that's generally a prudent thing to do when you've just been called out on particularly egregious levels of passive-aggression and false-helpfulness


It wasn't false. It's how I felt. I honestly felt I was helping. Yes, I'm very different then you... so what! But, hey, to each his own.


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)




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## Korra (Feb 28, 2015)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> in many instances, yes, absolutely. some examples include
> - shaming people for groping women
> - teachers shaming students who were lazy and didn't do their homework
> - shaming children when they attempt to bully other children
> ...


I get where you're going with this, but thought I chime in on how, for example, students whom are shamed for being lazy most likely stay that way throughout school. The shaming doesn't really teach them to go beyond it and most likely further discourages them to stop being "lazy". Then such students start to see that they'll only get attention by doing the things they shouldn't do (i.e. not do homework/study/not give a shit in general about school). 

Just from my observations at least of how teachers mocking lazy students didn't really absolve the behavior and probably made it worse. Looking too much into that one example, I know, but felt compelled to offer that perspective.


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> in many instances, yes, absolutely. some examples include
> - shaming people for groping women
> - teachers shaming students who were lazy and didn't do their homework
> - shaming children when they attempt to bully other children
> ...


This is a new thread. The above has nothing to do with your OP. This is a point I was going to make with @Kerik_S until we started conversing more.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Dalien said:


> It wasn't false. It's how I felt. I honestly felt I was helping. Yes, I'm very different then you... so what! But, hey, to each his own.


since this conversation is moving in a more polite direction, if you intend to help people, you should probably consider giving advice based on the other person's personality rather than what will work for _you_. you have strong Fe and are (given the assumptions you made about how I would respond to things) likely an empath (if you don't know what that is, basically it's someone who takes on the feelings of other people and is strongly affected by the joy and suffering of others due to extremely high levels of mirror neuron activity). I am not. I'm a Te-heavy 7w8 and really have a very easy time cutting off the connection I have with someone if they prove to be immoral, malicious, etc (more specifically, I don't really have a connection to begin with. it's something which needs to be formed more slowly). fighting for something I believe is just or punishing something (with a sense of proportion) which is unjust is not something I do because I "hate myself". it's actually a source of energy and, sometimes, a source of inspiration. 

if I were the stewing, constantly angry, vengeful person you seem to be under the impression I am, your advice would be a little more fitting, but the truth is that I'm extremely relaxed and mellow about 95% of the time (of the other 5%, 4% is intense moralistic bitching and maybe 1% is severely angry). much of the time, the people who are the most relaxed are the ones who are _willing_ to be ruthless at the right time and smart enough to know when that is.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Korra said:


> I get where you're going with this, but thought I chime in on how, for example, students whom are shamed for being lazy most likely stay that way throughout school. The shaming doesn't really teach them to go beyond it and most likely further discourages them to stop being "lazy". Then such students start to see that they'll only get attention by doing the things they shouldn't do (i.e. not do homework/study/not give a shit in general about school).
> Just from my observations at least of how teachers mocking lazy students didn't really absolve the behavior and probably made it worse. Looking too much into that one example, I know, but felt compelled to offer that perspective.


shaming is a lot like spanking: extremely effective when used properly, but extremely counter-productive is utilized too frequently. it's the difference between "I feel bad about that, next time I'll do better" vs "I _am_ a bad person? why am I so defective?"


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## Clyme (Jul 17, 2014)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> okay, I get it, it's not ok to rape someone who says they will let someone have sex with you, but at the same time....it's fucked up to promise to have sex with someone and then just decide "nevermind, I don't feel like it". a promise is a promise, and that should mean something.
> 
> so whats the solution? imo, promises of sex should come with collateral, in the same way that you have to do when you take out a bank loan. if you make a promise, someone has the right to take measures to ensure that you keep it. if someone promises me they have sex, I now make them sign a piece of paper saying they will give up something in return if they don't.
> 
> PS: this isn't really even about sex, it's about _respect_. we're all adults here, and when you make a promise, your word is your bond.


Interesting case. There are two aspects to consider here. The first is the ethics of maintaining one's agreement. The second is the type of agreement. Underlining both of these is your belief about what ethics is and why one should follow your definition of ethics.

I will explore these areas all soon, but the ethical underpinning must be explored first, and to this there are two questions that come to mind: what makes something ethical? Why should someone conform to what you believe is ethical, or ethical behavior at all?

Also, when I ask about what is ethical, I mean to ask what is the quality of that which is ethical. I am not asking about what things are ethical, such as respect, which merely point in the direction of those qualities. When I ask the latter question, I mean to say: so what if respect for agreement is ethical? Why should someone respect their agreement?


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## johnnyyukon (Nov 8, 2013)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> progress has been made.
> 
> 
> it can't change the past, but it incentivizes people to think twice before crossing you in the future (and it's also fun).


so, what's up homie? this thread, some guy leave you with blue balls?


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

johnnyyukon said:


> so, what's up homie? this thread, some guy leave you with blue balls?


not recently, no. it was more like I saw a similar situation which made me remember it and thing "wtf.....that's messed up, why is society ok with this?"


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## Maxxie (Nov 29, 2014)

You're really funny, dude.


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## Mzku (Nov 4, 2015)

Wild said:


> I've noticed this pattern in a lot of people where they put a lot of emphasis on a certain moral (promises, for example) and then judge the fuck out of other people who don't take it as seriously as they do. And you know what I think? I think it's extremely foolish. People aren't here to live up to _your_ standards, because everyone has their own set.
> 
> If someone promises you they'll have sex with you at a certain time, alright. Go ahead, expect it from them. But when the time comes and you don't get any ass, you can't physically do anything about it. You can make a mental note of it, sure. Note that this person makes promises they don't keep, and move on. It doesn't necessarily make them a person of "extremely low character", it might just mean they don't put the same emphasis on promises that you do, or that they didn't mean it as seriously as you took it. Maybe it's not that the person in question is of low character for not living up to your personal standards, but you're just foolish for expecting them to?


^this.

plus or minus some flavor jargon

but the main point is spot on.

"everybody gets one" would be my paraphrase. i, personally, would be hella grateful somebody gave me an open clear cut window into "my word doesnt mean shit"

likewise i couldnt ever really truly be mad at somebody for not wanting to have sex... you (the OP) ever been married, fella? i suggest you get used to it. shit comes up. things happen. moods change. but wait! there's also this little gem 



MuChApArAdOx said:


> ...and perhaps you are not good in bed either.



because that was my fiiiiiiiiirst thought. well, no i take that back my first thought was 'what the fuck is a sex promise? is that a thing now? have i been single that long???' and then 'maybe he couldnt think of a more direct way of saying "nuh uh" without him throwing a hissy fit about it on PerC later hurting his feelings?'

in any case. what wild said pretty much covered it




Swordsman of Mana said:


> not recently, no. it was more like I saw a similar situation which made me remember it and thing "wtf.....that's messed up, why is society ok with this?"


iiiii dont really know that society is "ok with this" per say. more like nobody but sick, sick individuals are ok with ...well sex promises and thinking people 'owe' them sex. perhaps.


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> since this conversation is moving in a more polite direction, if you intend to help people, you should probably consider giving advice based on the other person's personality rather than what will work for _you_. you have strong Fe and are (given the assumptions you made about how I would respond to things) likely an empath (if you don't know what that is, basically it's someone who takes on the feelings of other people and is strongly affected by the joy and suffering of others due to extremely high levels of mirror neuron activity). I am not. I'm a Te-heavy 7w8 and really have a very easy time cutting off the connection I have with someone if they prove to be immoral, malicious, etc (more specifically, I don't really have a connection to begin with. it's something which needs to be formed more slowly). fighting for something I believe is just or punishing something (with a sense of proportion) which is unjust is not something I do because I "hate myself". it's actually a source of energy and, sometimes, a source of inspiration.
> 
> if I were the stewing, constantly angry, vengeful person you seem to be under the impression I am, your advice would be a little more fitting, but the truth is that I'm extremely relaxed and mellow about 95% of the time (of the other 5%, 4% is intense moralistic bitching and maybe 1% is severely angry). much of the time, the people who are the most relaxed are the ones who are _willing_ to be ruthless at the right time and smart enough to know when that is.


Oh, my, thanks for the empath definition. Hun, I already know it and thank you any how. I went by what I read in this thread that you posted. So, my Fe woke up. Excuse me.
My post wasn't an attack on you. You really don't know me either. We just see things differently. I have my boundaries and I'm, also, smart enough to walk away. Don't go there, because you (whom ever) would be really shocked. Nope, this isn't a threat. Just how I am. Some can handle and some can't. In the grand scheme of things it makes no difference to me. I know how to fucking walk and know that for some people they can't stand that. They want to exact their whatever you want to call it. I don't have to deal with it, so I don't. Simple as that. And, no I'm not just an Fe. 
But, anyway, thanks for taking the time and telling me more about you.


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## johnnyyukon (Nov 8, 2013)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> not recently, no. it was more like I saw a similar situation which made me remember it and thing "wtf.....that's messed up, why is society ok with this?"


well, if ya know me, I probably won't dig through, but give me the quick and dirty......what situation? 




Maxxie said:


> You're really funny, dude.


I have no idea who you're talking to but thanks!


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## Roland Khan (May 10, 2009)

This just seems like a twisted sort of priorities really. Some "promises" are probably more important to hold somebody to sure, but this isn't one of them and I'd hardly consider breaking this kind of "promise" as a lack of respect or as a sign of society losing "honor" or whatever it was that was attributed to people not keeping their "promises". 


The whole OP just reads as if from a sexually frustrated teen who can't just rub one out for whatever reason. Get it over with and move on. Such a petty thing really for one to get so upset over and to think that somebody should be obligated to keep their word...it's just sex. 

Be different if they promised something that was actually important in some way and then decided to bail and actually screw over the person they made the promise to.

Just masturbate, don't exacerbate.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Mzku said:


> because that was my fiiiiiiiiirst thought. well, no i take that back my first thought was 'what the fuck is a sex promise? is that a thing now? have i been single that long???' and then 'maybe he couldnt think of a more direct way of saying "nuh uh" without him throwing a hissy fit about it on PerC later hurting his feelings?'
> 
> in any case. what wild said pretty much covered it
> 
> ...


projecting person #562. if you read the OP, the tone is relatively calm. maybe a little intense, but intense and "throwing a hissy fit" are not synonymous. you had a strong reaction to my post because you didn't like the message and it was therefore more convenient to jump to conclusions.

this topic aside, this is a specific type of projection I've becoming increasingly irritated with and have seen used against almost everyone I know who is even remotely assertive. basically, if you say anything with any degree of passion or conviction (or even a relatively neutral opinion delivered with some degree of weight), people assume you are "throwing a tantrum" because they are incapable of handling an opinion they don't like delivered with any degree of intensity. it's an overt form of proxy recruiting used by people who think "I want to make this guy look like an insecure cock slinger so that I don't have to actually address anything he has to say" (with the female friends I've seen this happen to, it might be something more along the lines of "she's PMSing all over the place" or something like that) 

now, to answer your question, a sex promise is relatively simple: someone simply says "I promise I will have sex with you". it's the same as a promise to do anything else.


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

Why tho would anyone promise to have sex. Why wouldnt this just be going with the flow. Seems like something that should maybe not be promised and should be dismissed if promised. I would not really want someone to promise that myself. I would rather have it out of desire not obligation.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Roland Khan said:


> This just seems like a twisted sort of priorities really. Some "promises" are probably more important to hold somebody to sure, but this isn't one of them and I'd hardly consider breaking this kind of "promise" as a lack of respect or as a sign of society losing "honor" or whatever it was that was attributed to people not keeping their "promises".
> 
> 
> The whole OP just reads as if from a sexually frustrated teen who can't just rub one out for whatever reason. Get it over with and move on. Such a petty thing really for one to get so upset over and to think that somebody should be obligated to keep their word...it's just sex.
> ...


for the millionth time, this is not about sex.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

the reason this thread is pissing me off doesn't even have to do with anything related to the OP (people have disagreed with me in the past, that's not a big deal). what _is_ pissing me off is that people keep parroting the same 5 or so comments despite the fact that I've explained them on several occasions, including the OP and continually make the same antithetical projections because it's inconvenient to actually try to understand what I'm really saying. then when I address it, they have greater room to label me "defensive" because I had contention with a false claim. I have a great deal of patience for genuine misunderstandings and things getting heated in a debate, the same cannot be said for willful ignorance and proxy-recruiting tactics (which become increasingly possible when you can't determine the tone of what the person is saying). 

if anyone has anything they wish to specifically refute or ask for clarification on, you're free to mention me, but other than that, this has gone far past the point of productivity.....


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## Sunn (Mar 12, 2014)




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## Roland Khan (May 10, 2009)

I was simply replying to the OP, sorry, I wasn't going to read 16 pages after that OP, lol. And that OP clearly _is _about sex and the promise of somebody to let somebody else do it to them.


Maybe if it's not supposed to be about _sex_, don't title the thread "Let's Discuss Promises to have Sex" and follow it up with an OP that's very much complaining about being promised sex then not getting it. 

If one really just wanted to discuss the idea of "promises" and how despicable people are for breaking them, one could have made that much clearer.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Roland Khan said:


> I was simply replying to the OP, sorry, I wasn't going to read 16 pages after that OP, lol. And that OP clearly _is _about sex and the promise of somebody to let somebody else do it to them.
> Maybe if it's not supposed to be about _sex_, don't title the thread "Let's Discuss Promises to have Sex" and follow it up with an OP that's very much complaining about being promised sex then not getting it.
> If one really just wanted to discuss the idea of "promises" and how despicable people are for breaking them, one could have made that much clearer.


I was very clear about that here: 


> PS: this isn't really even about sex, it's about _respect_. we're all adults here, and when you make a promise, your word is your bond.


another example of someone who didn't listen to a word I was saying.....


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## Roland Khan (May 10, 2009)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I was very clear about that here:
> 
> 
> another example of someone who didn't listen to a word I was saying.....


That hardly made it seem any different. After that OP, it didn't seem at all about actual "respect" other than in regards to a promise of sex. 

Again, one could have made it much clearer that one just wanted to talk about promises in general and their relations to respect; this however just implied that one was referring to the respect one owes somebody when making a promise of sex.


Maybe make another thread where it's clear that it's just about promises and respect, and leave sex out of it...especially in the title, as that's probably what throws everybody off, as I'm obviously not the only one to have made this "mistake".


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Roland Khan said:


> That hardly made it seem any different. After that OP, it didn't seem at all about actual "respect" other than in regards to a promise of sex.
> 
> Again, one could have made it much clearer that one just wanted to talk about promises in general and their relations to respect; this however just implied that one was referring to the respect one owes somebody when making a promise of sex.
> 
> Maybe make another thread where it's clear that it's just about promises and respect, and leave sex out of it...*especially in the title, as that's probably what throws everybody of*f, as *I'm obviously not the only one to have made this "mistake*".


people make assumptions based off of titles all the time. that doesn't make such misreads valid and it is neither my responsibility nor indicative of the clarity of any of my points.


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## Roland Khan (May 10, 2009)

Well okay then, but from the title and OP, can't really blame people for not being able to read your mind and figure out the intent behind it that didn't show at all in those two things. Rest of this thread pretty much shows my point.


Best of luck though.:kitteh:




ps: I get that it's mostly a misunderstanding and you're not really meaning what people are reading it as, so not really holding anything against you, it's just a simple misunderstanding. Thing is though, it's hardly our fault when the OP and title read the way that they do. A clearer thread start would have prevented all of this and we could have been having a coherent discussion on promises and respect without it seeming to focus so strongly on the aspect of the obligated sex. :wink:


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## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

what would you ask for? gas for the trip up to their place...? okay sure. why not? i mean, if that's the only reason you're going to see them, and wouldn't have wasted that resource in the process of seeing them under false pretenses... 

it technically fits in some way... it's also a petty way to deal with being denied something you really want, or feeling rejected in some fashion (hurt on some level). it's understandable to feel that way, and to vent it even, but do you think you'd actually be satisfied after the fact?


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Donovan said:


> *what would you ask for? gas for the trip up to their place...? okay sure.* why not? i mean, if that's the only reason you're going to see them, and wouldn't have wasted that resource in the process of seeing them under false pretenses...
> 
> it technically fits in some way... it's also a petty way to deal with being denied something you really want, or feeling rejected in some fashion (hurt on some level). it's understandable to feel that way, and to vent it even, but do you think you'd actually be satisfied after the fact?


- travel expenses
- compensation for lost time
- a little extra for good measure


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## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> - travel expenses
> - compensation for lost time
> - a little extra for good measure



hahahahahahahaha... you're brazen, i have to give you that much . 
i can imagine being like, "grrra! where's all that great puss at...? oh, okay, fine bitch" _*rubs fingers together in her face, to indicate the encroaching penalty*_.


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

People break promises all the time. Deal with it. Someone saying they will have sex with you doesn't mean they have to nor does it give you any right to demand it from them.


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## Fredward (Sep 21, 2013)

Do people actually do this? Like "I promise to have sex with you on the 19th of February 2016." Or is it implied? Cuz if it's implied that's an entirely different tin of tuna.

As for the topic itself... meh. Not everyone values promises the same way, not everyone values all promises the same way. Promising to show up at the appointed time might not be seen the same way as promising to spread your ass. As for the idea of reparations, I wanted to compare it to paying for a lottery ticket and then being miffed that you didn't win and demanding recompense in some fashion. But that's not entirely it, it'd be more like someone telling you you won the lottery and then saying "nah."

And I can get the frustration in that case. That's kinda a shitty thing to do. Re-orientating this back to sex though. It's sex, right? Not lying about a lottery ticket. It's their bodies. It's a consensual act. It's something you want. It's not something they want (anymore). That's about it, really. You have given them power by desiring something they have, or should have, full control over. If they decide they no longer want it, your card is up. Your only avenue for redress is taking back that interest that imbued their choice with any kind of influence over you, if this is the kind of thing that's a deal breaker for you. 

The idea that they should repay you something tangible feels like it crosses boundaries when it comes to personal choice over what you choose to do with your own body. Their is no tangible loss here, this isn't a building contract where lots of investors are gonna lose cash if the contract isn't completed. You get some mild sexual frustration, at the most [and prepping/traveling fees if they apply]. It seems more disrespectful to me to imply that someone owes you something for doing something fundamentally human, like choosing what they do with their bodies. You're disappointed? Leave. They aren't entitled to your time or interest just like you aren't entitled to having sex with them [even if they said they were DTF before].

And this is completely shelfing the interplay here, if this person _was _down with sex before you came together but changed their mind when you actually showed up what changed? Is it something with them? Or something with you? Do you have bad breath? Did you not wash your hair? Do you come off too strong/psycho sex killer in person? Are you actually boring as fuck in person? etc. Whose really responsible for the breach in expectation/respect then?


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Doge Precedes said:


> People break promises all the time. Deal with it. Someone saying they will have sex with you doesn't mean they have to nor does it give you any right to demand it from them.


read my previous posts. I'm not repeating myself again


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

I think this situation is kinda complicated.

First of all, I think making "promises" to have sex with someone is just a huge no-no (something I would definitely not recommend unless you have an above average sex drive and know yourself well enough to determine that you will be up for it when the time comes to ensure that no one is left feeling disappointed). Equally, I would see it as a red flag if someone asked me to promise them that we would have sex. For me, this would be a violation of my personal boundaries, as I do not like feeling pressured in this way (not saying this is wrong for everyone, I'm sure there are some people that might get turned on by that kinda thing. Maybe in a BDSM context, for example). 

As for the breaking the promise part. Well, this is also pretty complex. Yes, there are many legitimate reasons why someone might change their mind at the last moment, and I think that those decisions should be respected. Having said that, I do know of abusive relationships where an individual has used sex as a way to manipulate and control another person (i.e. the "hot/cold" approach, using sexuality to coerce someone to do something with the promise of sex, and then withholding these as a means of passive-aggressively punishing them). I actually think this is a big issue that a lot of people are afraid to talk about because people immediately assume that the person wanting sex is automatically at fault. 

So, context is everything. In normal circumstances, you have every right to feel frustrated/angry above not getting your sexual needs met (after it was promised), but if the person has a genuine reason why then punishing them would be kinda abusive, imo (basically, take responsibility for your emotions). If, however, you legitimately feel like someone is purposely doing it to mess with you, then you have every right to feel disrespected.


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> read my previous posts. I'm not repeating myself again


if you didn't mean exactly what you originally posted, then why post at all? Post everything you want people to know so I don't have to read through 5 pages.

In any case, you just sound like an entitled jerk. 

"I had to drive here thinking i'd get laid. *waaaa* give me my gas money *waaaa*"

Grow the fuck up.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Doge Precedes said:


> if you didn't mean exactly what you originally posted, then why post at all? Post everything you want people to know so I don't have to read through 5 pages.
> In any case, you just sound like an entitled jerk.
> "I had to drive here thinking i'd get laid. *waaaa* give me my gas money *waaaa*"
> Grow the fuck up.


I did mean what I said in the OP, you just didn't seem to comprehend it. now that you're done insulting me, I'd appreciate it if you at least attempted to make some vestige of a point


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Fredward said:


> Do people actually do this? Like "I promise to have sex with you on the 19th of February 2016." *Or is it implied?* Cuz if it's implied that's an entirely different tin of tuna.


heavens no! that's an example of either
a) leading someone on due to poor communication
b) wishful thinking on the part of the other person
or
c) (most likely) some combination of a or b 

a promise is a commitment, it can never be implied or assumed.


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## Purple Skies (Aug 31, 2015)

People break promises all the time, and about worse things.


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## Noctis (Apr 4, 2012)

Promises to have sex sounds like rape imo. Sorry, a promise to have sex doesn't sit too well with me.


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

@Swordsman of Mana - 

Interesting thread. I've read about 90% of the posts.

At first, I thought you made an unfortunate choice by bringing sex up as the point of reference for the importance of keeping a promise, but after reading many of the responses, it may be a stroke of brilliance in that it seems to have disarmed people into being truly honest. 

In actuality, you are right to expect that every promise, regardless of context, be honored. However, the attempt to tie non-performance to a monetary compensation is misguided. The currency of such a transaction is really trust.

Some have asked, "Who promises sex?" the answer to that is "people." Even as a married person, sometimes that is a promise that SWMBO and I have made to each other. If something develops that prevents the promise from being fulfilled within a specific time frame, one of us will beg off with the question, "Will you take a rain check?" it allows us to recognize that the other party regrets the situation, but extenuating circumstances have arisen. 

Some have asked, "But isn't sex about going with the flow, or yielding to passion?" The answer is, "Yes and no." Sure sex involves passion, but passion is something that can be cultivated. Think of all of the affairs you've heard about...clandestine meetings at out of the way motels under the pseudonym of Mr. and Mrs. Smith. These trysts are planned well in advance - much to long for passion to be maintained, yet such encounters are often filled with passion and longing. 

Since all of the defenses can easily be shut down in similar manner, the issue is really about keeping your word. Reading over the responses, what I kept wondering was, "Does this poster really believe that promises are this insignificant?" And more importantly, "Do they break promises that they make to their self?"

This last question is so important. If a person lacks the integrity to keep promises made to themselves, then it is almost certain that they will treat others similarly. Integrity starts with ourselves and goes out from there. If we tell ourself lies, we will struggle with being truthful with others. We have damaged our trust in our own internal relationship with our self, so we base our interactions with others on that damaged relationship, expecting that others will treat us in a manner similar to how we treat our self. Therefore, everyone is doing it, so the expectation is lowered to where we believe that we simply can't trust anyone to actually keep their word. Sad, really.

As an aside, I harbor no illusions that this is always the case, but it has been my experience that ENFP's tend to have a great tendency to having personal integrity in keeping their promises to themselves, and by extension, to others.

Thanks for a thought provoking thread.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

niss said:


> Some have asked, "But isn't sex about going with the flow, or yielding to passion?" The answer is, "Yes and no." Sure sex involves passion, but passion is something that can be cultivated. Think of all of the affairs you've heard about...clandestine meetings at out of the way motels under the pseudonym of Mr. and Mrs. Smith. These trysts are planned well in advance - much to long for passion to be maintained, yet such encounters are often filled with passion and longing


I completely agree with this. Reminds me of a TED talk about sustaining desire in a long-term relationship:

"Erotic couples also understand that passion waxes and wanes. It's pretty much like the moon. It has intermittent eclipses. But what they know is they know how to resurrect it. They know how to bring it back. And they know how to bring it back because they have demystified one big myth, which is the *myth of spontaneity*, which is that it's just going to fall from heaven while you're folding the laundry like a deus ex machina, and in fact they understood that *whatever is going to just happen in a long-term relationship, already has.*

Committed sex is premeditated sex. It's willful. It's intentional. It's focus and presence."


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## spiderfrommars (Feb 22, 2012)

niss said:


> Some have asked, "Who promises sex?" the answer to that is "people." Even as a married person, sometimes that is a promise that SWMBO and I have made to each other.


Well, the answer isn't "all people," since several posters asked that question. I think what they were really asking was, "why would somebody promise another person sex?" I think that's been preventing many people from engaging in the conversation SOM wants to have, since the conversation started in a place alien to their own experience.

I've never given nor received a promise of sex, and I have indeed been wondering, "Who does that?" Especially since SOM made it clear he was only referring to an explicit promise.

So in your case, if you don't mind sharing, why do you do that?


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Purple Skies said:


> People break promises all the time, and about worse things.


I'm going to repost a vent I made about this a few days ago in Spam World. ( @Doge Precedes this also applies to your previous post)



> .....I fucking hate it when people use this as if they're trying to make some sort of logical point. hint: it's called *bandwagon fallacy*. you wanna know what else happens all the time?
> 1) men getting raped in prison
> 2) lesbians being "cured" of homosexuality via "corrective rape"
> 3) cops beating the shit out of/shooting unarmed black teens
> ...


promises, respect, integrity and accountability are import for society to be able to conduct honest business. this isn't an opinion, it's a fact, and frankly, the liberal attitude of "it's oppressive to expect people to honor their word even if they don't feel like it" displays a lack of principle that is rapidly resulting in society become more passive-aggressive, entitled and adolescent in its communication.


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

spiderfrommars said:


> Well, the answer isn't "all people," since several posters asked that question. I think what they were really asking was, "why would somebody promise another person sex?" I think that's been preventing many people from engaging in the conversation SOM wants to have, since the conversation started *in a place alien to their own experience.*


Precisely! The bold text explains their whole issue - they lack enough life experience to have placed them there. So, instead of accepting that it is possible, or even probable - in the right circumstances - they immediately go to the question that isn't being asked.



> I've never given nor received a promise of sex, and I have indeed been wondering, "Who does that?" Especially since SOM made it clear he was only referring to an explicit promise.
> 
> So in your case, if you don't mind sharing, why do you do that?


Time is in short supply. A lingering kiss can turn into, "I've got to be somewhere, but I'll make a date with you..."

HTH


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

I swear, Steven Covey would be ashamed of most of you mutha fuckaz :laughing:


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I swear, Steven Covey would be ashamed of most of you mutha fuckaz :laughing:


IKR?

BTW, he is one of my favorite authors.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

niss said:


> IKR?
> 
> BTW, he is one of my favorite authors.


same. old fashioned but still adaptable


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## Purple Skies (Aug 31, 2015)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I'm going to repost a vent I made about this a few days ago in Spam World. ( @Doge Precedes this also applies to your previous post)
> 
> 
> 
> promises, respect, integrity and accountability are import for society to be able to conduct honest business. this isn't an opinion, it's a fact, and frankly, the liberal attitude of "it's oppressive to expect people to honor their word even if they don't feel like it" displays a lack of principle that is rapidly resulting in society become more passive-aggressive, entitled and adolescent in its communication.


Well thanks for all those examples because yeah, stuff like that happens all the time yet here you are complaining about people not keeping their promises on sex. You know how pathetic that sounds against what you've listed? I'm not saying you shouldn't be mad or whatever, you have a right to be, if you were that desperate for it in the first place but it's not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. If someone changes their mind on having sexual relations with you, then they've changed their mind. Plus, why would you want them to keep their promise when they don't even want to do it anymore? It's lame having sex with someone who would rather be somewhere else or doing something/someone else.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Purple Skies said:


> Well thanks for all those examples because yeah, stuff like that happens all the time yet here you are complaining about people not keeping their promises on sex. You know how pathetic that sounds against what you've listed? I'm not saying you shouldn't be mad or whatever, you have a right to be, if you were that desperate for it in the first place but it's not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. If someone changes their mind on having sexual relations with you, then they've changed their mind. Plus, why would you want them to keep their promise when they don't even want to do it anymore? It's lame having sex with someone who would rather be somewhere else or doing something/someone else.


you are trying to turn a moral issue into a personal one because that's the only way you can win anything for your case. how do you even know how angry I am? I honestly haven't even experienced anything like this for quite some time.


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## Purple Skies (Aug 31, 2015)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> you are trying to turn a moral issue into a personal one because that's the only way you can win anything for your case. how do you even know how angry I am? I honestly have experienced anything like this for quite some time.


I don't know whether you're angry or not. I said you have a right to be mad about it, as in generally. I didn't turn it into a personal issue but you've just revealed to me that it is.

I get that promises (morally) are supposed to be kept. But when it comes to sex, first of all, who the hell promises that. Second, if they change their mind and you want them to make it up to you another way, then do the same for all promises that have been broken to you. Just the thought of chasing up people who have broken a promise to go to the movies, or take your shift, is a joke. I'm sure no one is bothered enough to that cause they'll be doing it every other week. The same goes for sex. If they break a promise, don't trust their word the next time.

Btw, I don't wanna win shit. This isn't a case. I'm just talking and responding to what you've said.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Purple Skies said:


> I don't know whether you're angry or not. I said you have a right to be mad about it, as in generally. I didn't turn it into a personal issue but you've just revealed to me that it is.


no, I didn't. 
Edit: oh, whoops, that was a typo. whoops lol



> I get that promises (morally) are supposed to be kept.


good, you're in the minority on this thread if that's the case, but good 



> But when it comes to sex, first of all, who the hell promises that.


this is a continued deflection throughout this thread which I should have addressed earlier. who promises sex is not relevant, it's only relevant that they do it. I can answer that anyway though
1) people who are impulsive and mistake feelings of lust in the moment for real love
2) people who want to lead someone on
3) people who make promises frivolously in general 

so yeah, lots of people



> Second, if they change their mind and you want them to make it up to you another way, then do the same for all promises that have been broken to you. Just the thought of chasing up people who have broken a promise to go to the movies, or take your shift, is a joke.


I do do the same if people break promises to me. if they speak to me before hand about a logistical issue that came up, cool, but you don't get to just say "I don't feel like it", and not hold up a promise. that's not how any commitment works.



> I'm sure no one is bothered enough to that cause they'll be doing it every other week. The same goes for sex. If they break a promise, don't trust their word the next time.


if you truly care about each other, sex and a weekly trip to the movies cannot be compared. either way, yes, I do have a sense of proportion with these things, but I would still expect the person to make it up to me in some way.


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## Purple Skies (Aug 31, 2015)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> no, I didn't.
> Edit: oh, whoops, that was a typo. whoops lol


OK. 



Swordsman of Mana said:


> this is a continued deflection throughout this thread which I should have addressed earlier. who promises sex is not relevant, it's only relevant that they do it. I can answer that anyway though
> 1) people who are impulsive and mistake feelings of lust in the moment for real love
> 2) people who want to lead someone on
> 3) people who make promises frivolously in general
> ...


I cannot imagine an adult saying to another adult -I promise I will have sex with you. Which is how promises are made. Leading someone on is not a promise, although it can look like that on the outside. A promise is a verbal declaration and what you've listed aren't.




Swordsman of Mana said:


> I do do the same if people break promises to me. if they speak to me before hand about a logistical issue that came up, cool, but you don't get to just say "I don't feel like it", and not hold up a promise. that's not how any commitment works.


That's not how it works for you maybe, but the truth is you can't control people and promises can't control people. So yes they can say they don't feel like it cause really, what are you gonna do. That's just a sign of their bad character more than anything.




Swordsman of Mana said:


> if you truly care about each other, sex and a weekly trip to the movies cannot be compared. either way, yes, I do have a sense of proportion with these things, but I would still expect the person to make it up to me in some way.


Movies was just an example. Maybe I should have said promising to pay a bill instead. My point was there's many things people make promises on and break them. Is it wrong, yes, I think everyone agrees. You can expect them to make it up, true but you could also be waiting for a long time and they may not even make it up, so what then. Nothing. I don't get what the discussion is on cause that's what it boils down to in the end. People doing whatever the fuck they want to do.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Purple Skies said:


> OK.
> I cannot imagine an adult saying to another adult -I promise I will have sex with you. Which is how promises are made. Leading someone on is not a promise, although it can look like that on the outside. A promise is a verbal declaration and what you've listed aren't.


I don't care if you can/can't imagine that it would happen (I had trouble imagining racism happening in the northern US just a year ago). it does happen, and I've seen many examples of it that didn't involve me (and one or two that did, but as I said in previous comments, that was awhile ago, and not the reason I felt compelled to make this thread).



> That's not how it works for you maybe, but the truth is you can't control people and promises can't control people. So yes they can say they don't feel like it cause really, what are you gonna do. That's just a sign of their bad character more than anything.


no, breaking promises is a sign of bad character. expecting other people not to is not bad character. it's called expecting to be treated with respect and expecting people to mean what they say and say what they mean. 



> Movies was just an example. Maybe I should have said promising to pay a bill instead. My point was there's many things people make promises on and break them. Is it wrong, yes, I think everyone agrees. You can expect them to make it up, true but you could also be waiting for a long time and they may not even make it up, so what then. Nothing. I don't get what the discussion is on cause that's what it boils down to in the end. People doing whatever the fuck they want to do.


every conversation technically involves being boiled down to "people doing whatever the fuck they want to", that doesn't mean we should have discussions about rape, cheating on partners, being deceitful or neglecting children.


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## Purple Skies (Aug 31, 2015)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I don't care if you can/can't imagine that it would happen (I had trouble imagining racism happening in the northern US just a year ago). it does happen, and I've seen many examples of it that didn't involve me (and one or two that did, but as I said in previous comments, that was awhile ago, and not the reason I felt compelled to make this thread).


I'm confused. Did you not say that was a typo? So it did happen to you, which makes it personal. You say it's not the reason behind creating this thread, but I can't really take your word on that, you may be lying.. but whatever, it's none of my business plus I don't care.



Swordsman of Mana said:


> no, breaking promises is a sign of bad character. expecting other people not to is not bad character. it's called expecting to be treated with respect and expecting people to mean what they say and say what they mean.


This is what's making me think this is emotionally fuelled, cause you're not even reading what I said. I said ''That's just a sign of *their* bad character more than anything.''



Swordsman of Mana said:


> every conversation technically involves being boiled down to "people doing whatever the fuck they want to", that doesn't mean we should have discussions about rape, cheating on partners, being deceitful or neglecting children.


The difference is rape, cheating and neglecting children are all serious issues with serious consequences. It's also more complex than not keeping a promise on sex. Not tryna knocking you down for wanting to have a discussion, but that's why I only had one fucking sentence to say about the whole thing, the only reason I'm still on this thread is cause I'm replying to you.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Purple Skies said:


> I'm confused. Did you not say that was a typo? So it did happen to you, which makes it personal. You say it's not the reason behind creating this thread, but I can't really take your word on that, you may be lying.. but whatever, it's none of my business plus I don't care.


perhaps I'm not being clear. my point was: "yes, it has happened to me, but personal experience is not the driving force for making this thread" (I seldom make threads primarily based on personal experience. I make threads as the result of seeing trends I find unacceptable and wish to address). 




> This is what's making me think this is emotionally fuelled, cause you're not even reading what I said. I said ''That's just a sign of *their* bad character more than anything.''


"emotional" in the sense of it angers my sense of fairness, yes. "emotional" in the regular sense of the word, not really (since you appear to have some knowledge of Enneagram, it's 1-ish emotional, not 6-ish, 4-ish or 2-ish emotional)




> The difference is rape, cheating and neglecting children are all serious issues with serious consequences. It's also more complex than not keeping a promise on sex.


I have accounted for this previously. if there is an issue and you don't think you can hold up your commitment, talk to the person about it, don't just say "well I don't feel like it, so I don't care about previous commitments I've made".



> Not tryna knocking you down for wanting to have a discussion, but that's why I only had one fucking sentence to say about the whole thing, the only reason I'm still on this thread is cause I'm replying to you.


very well, you are under no obligation to continue responding


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

niss said:


> Time is in short supply. A lingering kiss can turn into, "I've got to be somewhere, but I'll make a date with you..."
> 
> HTH


You consider that as a promise? I beg to differ; I would consider that as a possibility. Nowhere was a promise made in that scenario. Good to know how men think...


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

Dalien said:


> You consider that as a promise? I beg to differ; I would consider that as a possibility. Nowhere was a promise made in that scenario. Good to know how men think...


Notice the ellipses at the end of my post? That means that there is more to the conversation that was omitted. I was not expecting to have to fill in the blanks for you by finishing a conversation that basically lists a date and time.

I'll refrain from making a sexist comment about thinking, even though you've left the obvious opportunity.


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

niss said:


> Time is in short supply. A lingering kiss can turn into, "I've got to be somewhere, but I'll make a date with you..."
> 
> HTH





Dalien said:


> You consider that as a promise? I beg to differ; I would consider that as a possibility. Nowhere was a promise made in that scenario. Good to know how men think...





niss said:


> Notice the ellipses at the end of my post? That means that there is more to the conversation that was omitted. I was not expecting to have to fill in the blanks for you by finishing a conversation that basically lists a date and time.
> 
> I'll refrain from making a sexist comment about thinking, even though you've left the obvious opportunity.


Oh, I did see the ellipses at the end of your post. I'm going to say it again; it's still not a promise. What if the date happens and sex doesn't happen? I get one will be ticked due to frustration stemming from a possibility in your scenario. The heat of a moment doesn't make a guarantee. So, how does one handle that is really the question in this thread; even though, SOM is taking it further about integrity. Still, expectations are not promises.


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

Dalien said:


> Oh, I did see the ellipses at the end of your post. I'm going to say it again; it's still not a promise. What if the date happens and sex doesn't happen? I get one will be ticked due to frustration stemming from a possibility in your scenario. The heat of a moment doesn't make a guarantee. So, how does one handle that is really the question in this thread; even though, SOM is taking it further about integrity. Still, expectations are not promises.


Your word is your bond. If I tell SWMBO that I'll meet her for lunch at a specific time and place - that's a promise. If a conflict occurs, then I owe her an explanation, apology, and a rescheduling of the appointment. 

You don't have to say, "I promise..." for it to be a commitment.


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## Derange At 170 (Nov 26, 2013)

I think this thread is an interesting thought experiment, which is what I think it was intended to be in the first place.

People have this odd relationship with sex; strictly held moral positions stop being of importance once sex is involved. Silly when you think about it. Swordsman of Mana is correct; word is bond. Yes, people can break their promises. But for them to break a promise is still a nasty thing to do. Regardless whether that promise involves helping someone move, or sex (both activities that promise a bodily act to someone else; both are promises where the person making the promise is voluntarily diminishing their physical agency. Whether that physical agency is sexual or not should be irrelevant).

This is why I rarely promise anything concretely. I only promise to try my best. Which in most circumstances, is the only thing people should ever promise.


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

niss said:


> Your word is your bond. If I tell SWMBO that I'll meet her for lunch at a specific time and place - that's a promise. If a conflict occurs, then I owe her an explanation, apology, and a rescheduling of the appointment.
> 
> You don't have to say, "I promise..." for it to be a commitment.


I think Dalien's point was that you can't do that with sexual commitment because you can easily be reading a consent that isn't there.

Unless someone says, "I promise to have sex with you later" (or "I'll have sex with you later" in a way that is clearly not meant to mean "I'll _try_ to have sex with you later"), then it's too laden with human desire for you to be able to say that you can be the arbiter of whether or not consent was truly given.

I think Dalien assumed that you were saying that "the date promise" was somehow an automatic implied promise for sex.

If your spouse *(*not a fan of SWMBO-- it seems like sexism waiting to happen, on reserve as a friendly diminutive that can easily be turned against her using lame sexist tropes about being "bossy"*)*... if she implies commitment to a date, that date does not mean "date with sex" unless she outlines that separately.

I think Dalien believes you were somehow reading sexual consent in where it wasn't given


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

niss said:


> Time is in short supply. A lingering kiss can turn into, "I've got to be somewhere, but I'll make a date with you..."
> 
> HTH





Dalien said:


> You consider that as a promise? I beg to differ; I would consider that as a possibility. Nowhere was a promise made in that scenario. Good to know how men think...





niss said:


> Notice the ellipses at the end of my post? That means that there is more to the conversation that was omitted. I was not expecting to have to fill in the blanks for you by finishing a conversation that basically lists a date and time.
> 
> I'll refrain from making a sexist comment about thinking, even though you've left the obvious opportunity.





Dalien said:


> Oh, I did see the ellipses at the end of your post. I'm going to say it again; it's still not a promise. What if the date happens and sex doesn't happen? I get one will be ticked due to frustration stemming from a possibility in your scenario. The heat of a moment doesn't make a guarantee. So, how does one handle that is really the question in this thread; even though, SOM is taking it further about integrity. Still, expectations are not promises.





niss said:


> Your word is your bond. If I tell SWMBO that I'll meet her for lunch at a specific time and place - that's a promise. If a conflict occurs, then I owe her an explanation, apology, and a rescheduling of the appointment.
> 
> You don't have to say, "I promise..." for it to be a commitment.


I see. Integrity is important. I never argued against this. The OP is an issue to do with sexual promises. Your original scenario was sex related and then you wrote of a lunch date scenario. No, in a committed relationship, such as marriage, one doesn't necessarily need to say, "I promise". Yet, even in marriage making a sex date doesn't necessarily mean that it will transpire just like your lunch date scenario. Correct me if I'm wrong, marriage its self is the promise. There fore, within daily life, expectations are not promises no matter the type of date. Yes, there is a big difference between a sex date and lunch date... one is so much more, well, personal... that connection that's found with no one else. One whom is married can have lunch dates with others and it wouldn't be considered as losing integrity because of the marriage promise. (And, no, I'm not saying sex time (making love) is more important than spending time with that loved one.)

Now, within the dating world, a sexual promise is quite different. There is no marriage promise. I'm going to express it again, because it's truly simple, expectations are not promises. If someone promises to have sex with another, and I mean literally promises, there are still chances that it won't happen. Making a promise gives a failure to come through more anger because of integrity. Expectation falls that much harder. Eluding to a promise creates expectations, as well. But, integrity would lose less face. Either way, promising sex should not be made. And, in reality, people place expectations on other people with or without promises. Does another really lose their integrity when an expectation can't or isn't met? Sure, but in who's eyes? 

So, how does one deal when a sexual promise is made or presumed is the freaking question of this thread. 

My points are:
Don't make promises (sexual)
Expectations aren't promises
When let down because of your own eyes, keep your own integrity by either talking with other and working it out or simply walk away.

@niss this entire post is not fully directed at you. Part of it yes, but not all.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Derange At 170 said:


> I think this thread is an interesting thought experiment, which is what I think it was intended to be in the first place.
> 
> People have this odd relationship with sex; strictly held moral positions stop being of importance once sex is involved. Silly when you think about it. Swordsman of Mana is correct; word is bond. Yes, people can break their promises. But for them to break a promise is still a nasty thing to do. Regardless whether that promise involves helping someone move, or sex (both activities that promise a bodily act to someone else; both are promises where the person making the promise is voluntarily diminishing their physical agency. Whether that physical agency is sexual or not should be irrelevant).
> 
> This is why I rarely promise anything concretely. I only promise to try my best. Which in most circumstances, is the only thing people should ever promise.


The simple, mature solution is to not promise, or accept promises of sex, not demand compensation. Sexual desire is not the same as choosing to help with moving because it depends on factors like mood that are fleeting and not easily under control and sex is a process that is very intensely sensual and being in mood is very important. Which I think is why most people here don't take the whole topic seriously. 
I don't want to accept promises of sex because sometimes, some people may keep their word simply as a favor, because they promised it and not because they really want it. Or they will simply break that promise. Both are just not nice, so I prefer to not have such kind of business-y arrangement in my relationships. I kinda did it during my teen years so it's not completely foreign to me and it's just something I believe immature.


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## Derange At 170 (Nov 26, 2013)

Red Panda said:


> The simple, mature solution is to not promise, or accept promises of sex, not demand compensation. Sexual desire is not the same as choosing to help with moving because it depends on factors like mood that are fleeting and not easily under control and sex is a process that is very intensely sensual and being in mood is very important. Which I think is why most people here don't take the whole topic seriously.
> I don't want to accept promises of sex because sometimes, some people may keep their word simply as a favor, because they promised it and not because they really want it. Or they will simply break that promise. Both are just not nice, so I prefer to not have such kind of business-y arrangement in my relationships. I kinda did it during my teen years so it's not completely foreign to me and it's just something I believe immature.


You're projecting your own values onto the issue.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Derange At 170 said:


> You're projecting your own values onto the issue.


This thread is all about anyone's values so I don't see the problem with that. Even the word=bond thing is a personal value as is obvious in this thread. There's no objectivity in this.


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## Sygma (Dec 19, 2014)

Neverontime said:


> How old are you? Seriously, I can only imagine you haven't interacted with many people. Your view is idealistic and not realistic.


I'm 29 and been educated that way. Just so you know my field of work is with kids, so I do interact with a lot of people quite regularly. I just dismiss those who don't do what they say, it's that simple really. I can completely "door slam" someone even if he's right in front of me and trying to interact or be considerated. 

For example, if twice in a row a coworker or whatever tell me he's in charge of things but nothing ever come up and I continuously have to wait for his royalty to deliver, I'm just doing his job, take evidence of me doing so, go to the hierarchy and bang.

I'm not one to actually accept laziness or false expectations. As said before I'm blunt, straightforward, very much a doer and I take everyone up to their words. Acceptation of everything when words are just words is weakness and I ain't weak, nor should I accept that the person in front is especially if I've been tolerating excuses for a little while. I'm known to be reliable, that doesn't mean I'll bend over.


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

Kerik_S said:


> I think Dalien's point was that you can't do that with sexual commitment because you can easily be reading a consent that isn't there.


This is incorrect. BTDT. It can and has been done.



> Unless someone says, "I promise to have sex with you later" (or "I'll have sex with you later" in a way that is clearly not meant to mean "I'll _try_ to have sex with you later"), then it's too laden with human desire for you to be able to say that you can be the arbiter of whether or not consent was truly given.


Wrong again. If you say that you will do something, regardless of what that thing is, you are capable of setting aside personal desires to go and do said thing. I am the arbiter of nothing when it is clearly stated.



> I think Dalien assumed that you were saying that "the date promise" was somehow an automatic implied promise for sex.


In the context of my statements, that would be a correct assumption.



> If your spouse *(*not a fan of SWMBO-- it seems like sexism waiting to happen, on reserve as a friendly diminutive that can easily be turned against her using lame sexist tropes about being "bossy"*)*... if she implies commitment to a date, that date does not mean "date with sex" unless she outlines that separately.


Arrogance abounds. You have - literally - no idea of what you are discussing. I am not speaking hypothetically. I was asked for an example, which I gave, but with severe limitations, since I am not comfortable sharing more than that on an internet forum. I expected people reading this to take into account that I expect them to respect that this is my personal experience, and that I am not going to give them a graphic blow by blow account of conversation and activities surrounding the event.

Whether or not you are comfortable with my use of SWMBO for my wife is really of little relevance. You don't know enough about her, me, or our relationship to comment on my use of the term. I think you would do well to stick to the topic in this instance.



> I think Dalien believes you were somehow reading sexual consent in where it wasn't given


It has always been a promise, within the context I've provided. And it has been given by both of us. 

I hope I have been clear.



Dalien said:


> I see. Integrity is important. I never argued against this. The OP is an issue to do with sexual promises. Your original scenario was sex related and then you wrote of a lunch date scenario. No, in a committed relationship, such as marriage, one doesn't necessarily need to say, "I promise". Yet, even in marriage making a sex date doesn't necessarily mean that it will transpire just like your lunch date scenario. Correct me if I'm wrong, marriage its self is the promise. There fore, within daily life, expectations are not promises no matter the type of date. Yes, there is a big difference between a sex date and lunch date... one is so much more, well, personal... that connection that's found with no one else. One whom is married can have lunch dates with others and it wouldn't be considered as losing integrity because of the marriage promise. (And, no, I'm not saying sex time (making love) is more important than spending time with that loved one.)


While there is a general implied consent, marriage is not an automatic consent to sex on demand. What I was sharing for the poster who asked, was a general idea of how a promise has been made within the confines of our marriage. Each time it was a promise, whether given by SWMBO or by myself.

The lunch date was merely another example, used to help clarify what we are discussing. I am very well aware of the differences in the two occasions.



> Now, within the dating world, a sexual promise is quite different. There is no marriage promise. I'm going to express it again, because it's truly simple, expectations are not promises. If someone promises to have sex with another, and I mean literally promises, there are still chances that it won't happen. Making a promise gives a failure to come through more anger because of integrity. Expectation falls that much harder. Eluding to a promise creates expectations, as well. But, integrity would lose less face. Either way, promising sex should not be made. And, in reality, people place expectations on other people with or without promises. Does another really lose their integrity when an expectation can't or isn't met? Sure, but in who's eyes?


Expectations are certainly not promises. No one has said that. Expectations are what are fostered by the giving of a promise.

Word given is a bond. Say what you mean, mean what you say, or say nothing at all.



> So, how does one deal when a sexual promise is made or presumed is the freaking question of this thread.


Incorrect. That is where so many have erred. It is about more than just a sexual promise; it is not a presumption, but is an actual promise.



> My points are:
> Don't make promises (sexual)
> Expectations aren't promises
> When let down because of your own eyes, keep your own integrity by either talking with other and working it out or simply walk away.
> ...


I don't agree with all of your points, but so be it. Where it was directed to me and where it wasn't was not clear. Hence my response to all of it.


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## Starry Eyed (Jan 15, 2016)

If it's about respect perhaps one should respect the other party's decision to break their promise and move the fuck on.
"Held accountable, like a bank loan." Pfft that's some Merchant of Venice shit right there.
Unless you paid for the sex, a person is certainly not obligated to fulfill their 'promise.'
Make 'promises' with men/women who will actually want to have sex with you cause lemme tell you if I have to 'promise' to have sex with you it's likely I lost a bet/game of some kind and I don't want to have sex with you...


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

CaptainAnon said:


> If it's about respect perhaps one should respect the other party's decision to break their promise and move the fuck on.


this is the problem I have with today's culture: a promise is seen as something that is casual and which comes with no level of accountability. people who break promises deserve to be criticized and afforded less respect. expecting someone to show you respect after you break a promise with zero hesitation or regard for the other party is hypocritical and entitled. 



> "Held accountable, like a bank loan." Pfft that's some Merchant of Venice shit right there.


it's also some "21st century business 101" shit and "basic life lessons your mother was supposed to teach you at age 10" shit.



> Unless you paid for the sex, a person is certainly not obligated to fulfill their 'promise.'
> Make 'promises' with men/women who will actually want to have sex with you cause lemme tell you if I have to 'promise' to have sex with you it's likely I lost a bet/game of some kind and I don't want to have sex with you...


then don't make that promise. this is irrelevant to the person on the other end.


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## Starry Eyed (Jan 15, 2016)

@Swordsman of Mana

Listen, it's 2016 not 1542 and let's face it even then humans broke promises. I do however agree it says a lot about a person's character. But in this scenario it says a lot about your character as well.
Who makes 'promises' for sex other than prostitutes or people who lost a bet/game?
And if you lose said bet it is likely that you were intoxicated in which case their promise means nothing and you would have the mindset of a rapist if you think they should fulfill their promise.

Also a person's 'word' is not a binding legal contract. It's irrelevant to me what you think is morally fair or right. Sex is tricky that way, people are in no way obligated to give their body to you even if they 'promised' to.

Again it's utterly strange that anyone would make a promise to have sex anyway. Please give me a scenario or two because all I am imagining is some drunk chick promising some dude she'll fuck him if he beats her in a game of pool. -__-


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

CaptainAnon said:


> @Swordsman of Mana
> *Listen, it's 2016 not 1542 and let's face it even then humans broke promises.* I do however agree it says a lot about a person's character. But in this scenario it says a lot about your character as well.
> Who makes 'promises' for sex other than prostitutes or people who lost a bet/game?
> And if you lose said bet it is likely that you were intoxicated in which case their promise means nothing and you would have the mindset of a rapist if you think they should fulfill their promise.


appeal to Fe. what is right/wrong does not change depending on the time period or social norms. 



> Also a person's 'word' is not a binding legal contract. It's irrelevant to me what you think is morally fair or right. Sex is tricky that way, people are in no way obligated to give their body to you even if they 'promised' to.


legality and morality are not and have never been the same, or even strongly correlated



> Again it's utterly strange that anyone would make a promise to have sex anyway.


someone who leads you on to believe they really like you, then moves along when the next thing that catches their interest walks by a few weeks later. 



> Please give me a scenario or two because all I am imagining is some drunk chick promising some dude she'll fuck him if he beats her in a game of pool. -__-


if she were sober, that would be a perfectly acceptable scenario (and I would not have any sympathy for her because she would have been very stupid to make that kind of bet if she was uncomfortable)


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

@niss , you chose to be vague, so excuse me more being confused.

That wasn't an _excuuuuuuussseee meeee_.

Literally, do please excuse me for being confused.


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## Starry Eyed (Jan 15, 2016)

@Swordsman of Mana



> appeal to Fe. what is right/wrong does not change depending on the time period or social norms.
> 
> 
> legality and morality are not and have never been the same, or even strongly correlated


I didn't say it did. But what I did say was my own perception. That verbal promises are meaningless in any time period. That's what contracts are for. People are not held accountable for their word in a casual setting. If sex is not their job/obligation they are not required to fulfill it.
I beg to differ on the second statement, it depends on the issue at hand but this is another topic I don't feel like discussing.



> Someone who leads you on to believe they really like you, then moves along when the next thing that catches their interest walks by a few weeks later.


I mean, this is just a 'too bad' situation. Should people be held accountable, if so in what way?
And what about the men and women who promise that they aren't just using you for sex and they won't cheat, etc. and they do just that?
I call these 'shitty people.' You learn how to spot them, it's actually quite easy.

The whole problem with this thread is that it's unrealistic. We can't police everyone's actions we don't have enough time or equality for that. Promises mean different things to different individuals. I take my promises seriously unless I am intoxicated. This is just me, others can be quite different. If you don't like that the women/men you have talked to don't follow through on their teasing implications then find some different women/men, simple as that.


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