# Advice or experience developing discipline



## SpeedTheRacer (11 mo ago)

I have a fair amount of discipline, it seems like by observation I possess more self control and discipline then most of the people that I know around me. I can get up to 8 hours a day on my own with my chosen pursuits (which I do a lot because I am quite independent wit my goal or whatever) and...it’s just a serious struggle sometimes. It has been a while since I have really locked myself into a block or period of time for lengthy periods of time and I was just wondering, it stops hurting so much correct?

I was just wondering if anyone had any tips or strategies to deal with it. I will just keep pushing though probably but is it normal to take time getting used to going like 12 hours a day for example? It’s so easy to whittle away time it makes me feel a little on edge and like there is added pressure. I felt agony a few times and I try to channel those feelings and it does help a lot.

It has usually gone away for me and I get more used to it but I have never really been conscious of it in the past like I have been lately I just feel extra nervous like I really want to do the best that I can, I don’t know if anyone has any experience with this experience independently on their own with anything. I’m going to try again for 12-15 I just get so frustrated and mad the pain hurts so much it makes me feel like crying I am used to ignoring my feelings but gosh it’s really hard sometimes.

I started doing cardio for 30-60 minutes every day and it helps a lot with things but I hardly have time for that even as an example, it all just takes up time. 
I can get going for a while and be pretty on course and productive but then I just get those frustration feelings always and it’s hard to know how to adequately solve them because they can be really distracting and irritating and I falter. I just really, really want to achieve my goals and not falter anymore.


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## SpeedTheRacer (11 mo ago)

I hope this doesn’t seem arrogant or self grandiose somehow it is not really intended to be.


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## Celtsincloset (Feb 17, 2014)

I have no idea what you're asking. Please be more concise!


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## JimT (May 31, 2010)

SpeedTheRacer said:


> I have a fair amount of discipline, it seems like by observation I possess more self control and discipline then most of the people that I know around me. I can get up to 8 hours a day on my own with my chosen pursuits (which I do a lot because I am quite independent wit my goal or whatever) and...it’s just a serious struggle sometimes. It has been a while since I have really locked myself into a block or period of time for lengthy periods of time and I was just wondering, it stops hurting so much correct? [...snipped]


You're talking about having difficulty staying concentrated and focused on a single task for long periods of time?

Short answer: Take breaks and give your brain a rest.

Long answer: Your brain has two modes of thinking:

1) So-called Right-brain thinking (also called System 1 thinking) is your autopilot mode of thinking for repetitive, mundane tasks that don't require a lot of attention and focus. For example, driving, simple mathematics, game play, etc., in other words, things that you do so often and repetitively that they "come naturally" to you.

2) So-called Left-brain thinking (also called System 2 thinking) is more controlled, slower, more deliberative, more logical. It's the center for your executive functions: Attention and focus.

Here's the big difference between the two:
--System 1 is an auto-function that requires little or no energy. It's always cranking along at full speed, and it never tires or takes a break.
--By comparison, System 2 is a massive energy hog. When you use it, it burns down energy fast. And once it becomes depleted, it shuts down. Once it becomes depleted, you feel exhausted, burnt out, and spent. You find it difficult to focus on anything.

So if you're using a lot of Left-brain/System 2 thinking, then the answer is to take frequent breaks to allow it to rest and recharge. Work in 20-minute segments and then take 5-minute breaks to do light (System 1) chores. Or work in 2-hour segments, then take a longer break to hit the gym and do a work-out or some other large daily task. Whatever works for you.

Kahneman has a good explanation for this stuff in his book "Thinking, Fast & Slow." (Kahneman is a psychologist who was awarded a Nobel Prize for ground-breaking work on how our brain works and makes decisions, etc.)

Also check out two posts I made on the subject:

The Expansion & Contraction Cycle (E&C cycle)

The Expansion & Contraction Cycle (E&C cycle)


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

The problem lies in the assumption that spending 12-15 hours daily for "achieving some goal" is a natural and reasonable thing to do. No one should be used to doing that.

Have you ever wondered that the pain and resistance your body exerts might exist for a reason?
Maybe instead of fighting against yourself, you might consider fighting against whatever stupidity forced you to burn your life away for those "goals". Unless your goals directly relate to your survival or of others.


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## Tsubaki (Apr 14, 2015)

I'm a master's student and work part-time in research with a completely flexible schedule (mostly from home) so since I always have to motivate myself to actually do something, those thoughts about "not doing enough" obviously come up for me as well.

The thing is, though: It's actually a blessing to be able to determine my own schedule, because I simply _don't _have to have traditional workdays of 8 to 12 hours but I can usually get everything done in 30 hours a week perfectly fine (also distributed over saturday and sunday). In that time, I do the work that is usually designated for around 50 hours a week.

In a normal job, you usually have some down-time or your brain just starts to wander after a few hours. I remember how much time I spent talking to my colleagues and drinking tea back when I was at the office for my (old) job and while I miss that, it meant that I spent more time overall at work because of course I still had to get my stuff done.

When I study for an exam, I also only do an absolute maximum of 5 hours distributed over the course of a day and I usually get more out of it than a lot of other people who study for 10 hours. I just break it up into reasonable segments of about half an hour to an hour and like that the information really sticks with me.

Another plus is that I can occupy my hands with something during online lectures. I often draw, crochet and sometimes even play minecraft (usually in peaceful mode) because it's easier for me to pay attention that way.


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## SpeedTheRacer (11 mo ago)

Tsubaki said:


> I'm a master's student and work part-time in research with a completely flexible schedule (mostly from home) so since I always have to motivate myself to actually do something, those thoughts about "not doing enough" obviously come up for me as well.
> 
> The thing is, though: It's actually a blessing to be able to determine my own schedule, because I simply _don't _have to have traditional workdays of 8 to 12 hours but I can usually get everything done in 30 hours a week perfectly fine (also distributed over saturday and sunday). In that time, I do the work that is usually designated for around 50 hours a week.
> 
> ...


I always suspected that but a lot of jobs I had I was pushed really hard I wasn’t allowed any breaks I had to constantly be productive somehow. 

I can get five hours pretty easily and 8 isn’t too much of a struggle but I dunno , I think this documentary I saw of China where this girl was forced to practice some type of dancing for the Olympic as a child she was forced to have so much discipline that it made her cry out of frustration.
I really want to get like 15 hours a day though. I have found that taking meditation breaks really help a lot. It’s just hard for me to relax normally and play video games or watch television all I really want to do is work towards my goals so it doesn’t make sense to do it only for a limited time period.


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## SpeedTheRacer (11 mo ago)

Allostasis said:


> The problem lies in the assumption that spending 12-15 hours daily for "achieving some goal" is a natural and reasonable thing to do. No one should be used to doing that.
> 
> Have you ever wondered that the pain and resistance your body exerts might exist for a reason?
> Maybe instead of fighting against yourself, you might consider fighting against whatever stupidity forced you to burn your life away for those "goals". Unless your goals directly relate to your survival or of others.


You’re not American enough to understand.


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## Tsubaki (Apr 14, 2015)

SpeedTheRacer said:


> I always suspected that but a lot of jobs I had I was pushed really hard I wasn’t allowed any breaks I had to constantly be productive somehow.
> 
> I can get five hours pretty easily and 8 isn’t too much of a struggle but I dunno , I think this documentary I saw of China where this girl was forced to practice some type of dancing for the Olympic as a child she was forced to have so much discipline that it made her cry out of frustration.
> I really want to get like 15 hours a day though. I have found that taking meditation breaks really help a lot. It’s just hard for me to relax normally and play video games or watch television all I really want to do is work towards my goals so it doesn’t make sense to do it only for a limited time period.


What life goal is it that requires 15 hours a day? It sounds like a completely arbitrary goal which is going to burn you out. I used to have a restrictive eating disorder and "I have to work 15 hours a day" has a similar feel of ridiculousness to me as "I have to eat only 800 calories today"


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## SpeedTheRacer (11 mo ago)

I am a three though and these apparent differences make me laugh. 

I read about Hailee Steinfield how during the pandemic she used to volunteer for 12-15 hours when it still broke out and things like that. Everyone just thinks I am a loser as well and I am sick of feeling stuck in purgatory and languishing in negativity I just really, really want to accomplish my goals. I really want to
be a musician so badly and I love music I wasn’t making as much progress doing 4-6-to 8 hours. I have mastered the guitar and I think sing okay but it still isn’t really enough. 

I honestly don’t have much else to fall back on, and I can’t handle a lot of regular jobs and a lot of people despise and hate me because am a musician and I am sick do being treated that way. There’s this woman that I really, really like and I desperately want to prove myself to her by playing her music which is kind of ridiculous but that’s one reason. I am not trying to become famous, but I have thought about moving to New York and Los Angeles and I would like to make something of myself there, I think I could be one of the better guitarists out there and that’s kind of crazy to me, but I still have to learn theory. 

It feels really relieving to hear that 3 and five hours is a long time to a lot of people, I thought I just wasn’t doing well enough. 

I think now in retrospect I wish that I had a more normal and regular life, but hints just haven’t worked out for me in that way. I have thought about normal jobs but it has just been slightly out of my grasp.


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## SpeedTheRacer (11 mo ago)

Tsubaki said:


> What life goal is it that requires 15 hours a day? It sounds like a completely arbitrary goal which is going to burn you out. I used to have a restrictive eating disorder and "I have to work 15 hours a day" has a similar feel of ridiculousness to me as "I have to eat only 800 calories today"


I think I can do it, it’s just really, really hard. I am a three I guess I just want to be successful so badly it’s hard to explain, I don’t think it’s really bad. Like I said I just get weird emotions sometimes like these extreme feelings of frustration and I feel like screaming out loudly.

I think Steve Aoki said said in a documentary he does like 12 hours a day so it’s not that strange, I just wonder what others experiences with it are.

The ingest I have been able to get is like 10 hours and hen afterward my brain refuses to concentrate so I don’t know. I have known people who work like 12 hour shifts it’s not that unheard of.


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## JimT (May 31, 2010)

SpeedTheRacer said:


> [...snipped] I really want to get like 15 hours a day though. I have found that taking meditation breaks really help a lot. It’s just hard for me to relax normally and play video games or watch television all I really want to do is work towards my goals so it doesn’t make sense to do it only for a limited time period.


Just to add to what I said above:

It's a question of body chemistry. You're always going to be limited by your production and expenditure of glucose.

To spell it out:

Your body turns food into glucose (so-called "blood sugars"). And every organ in your body uses glucose for fuel.

Most of your organs use glucose sparingly: Maintenance stuff like breathing and heartbeat, light brain activity (System 1), light physical activity (like strolling in a park). Your body can easily produce enough glucose to keep up with those demands.

But some body activities burn glucose fast: Heavy brain activity (System 2), and heavy athletic activity. Your body can't keep up with those demands, and sooner or later the amount of glucose in your blood gets depleted and you have to take a break and rest until your body can produce more glucose.

You can't really teach your body to produce glucose faster; your body tends to produce it at a set rate. So all you can do is be efficient in your use of glucose: If you're going to do heavy brain or athletic activity, then pace yourself so that you don't burn down your glucose too quickly. And/or take breaks to allow your body to produce more glucose.

The other alternative is to consume lots of sugary foods and drinks to artificially keep your glucose levels up in your blood. (Glucose = sugar, hence the name "blood sugars.") But that has long-term negative affects: Weight gain, diabetes, etc. Same thing for stimulants and amphetamines: Short-term boost, but long-term damage to your system.


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## Tsubaki (Apr 14, 2015)

SpeedTheRacer said:


> I am a three though and these apparent differences make me laugh.


For context, I needed to work myself into two almost-burnouts (the first was averted by an injury that could have cost me a foot, the second by the first lockdown) until I first tried to take it easier. I found out that the quality of my work actually improved and I could be so much more impactful by diversifying my attention. What I have to add, though, is that I am in a position where I already "made it" (Graduated for my bachelor's degree at the top of the year at my university and just won several prizes for my research) so I obviously don't really know what it's like to be in a less privileged position. 



> I read about Hailee Steinfield how during the pandemic she used to volunteer for 12-15 hours when it still broke out and things like that.


I also pumped out work like a maniac at the beginning of the pandemic, because it was a distraction from all the shit going on. What I want to say is that that time was not "regular daily life".



> I honestly don’t have much else to fall back on, and I can’t handle a lot of regular jobs and a lot of people despise and hate me because am a musician and I am sick do being treated that way. There’s this woman that I really, really like and I desperately want to prove myself to her by playing her music which is kind of ridiculous but that’s one reason. I am not trying to become famous, but I have thought about moving to New York and Los Angeles and I would like to make something of myself there, I think I could be one of the better guitarists out there and that’s kind of crazy to me, but I still have to learn theory.


It sounds like that's where your main issue is. You have no safety net for your _self esteem. _Is there nothing that you can learn on the side which might give you some feeling of self-worth back? Any course which would give you a safe and tolerable job to fall back on which other people "respect"? I am educated as a nuclear safety manager which is really random, but it's a cool thing to have and if I desperately needed a job right now and didn't get anything in my field (highly unlikely, but theoretically), I could still always work at a lab or a power plant. 
It's an extremely common prejudice that if you're an artist, you're basically worth nothing until you "made it", but if it's not the only thing you can do, also doing music or art on the side is "cool and inspiring".
Pushing yourself from the first to the second category could make your life a lot easier.


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## thedazzlingdexter (12 mo ago)

SpeedTheRacer said:


> I have a fair amount of discipline, it seems like by observation I possess more self control and discipline then most of the people that I know around me. I can get up to 8 hours a day on my own with my chosen pursuits (which I do a lot because I am quite independent wit my goal or whatever) and...it’s just a serious struggle sometimes. It has been a while since I have really locked myself into a block or period of time for lengthy periods of time and I was just wondering, it stops hurting so much correct?
> 
> I was just wondering if anyone had any tips or strategies to deal with it. I will just keep pushing though probably but is it normal to take time getting used to going like 12 hours a day for example? It’s so easy to whittle away time it makes me feel a little on edge and like there is added pressure. I felt agony a few times and I try to channel those feelings and it does help a lot.
> 
> ...


I learned discipline since if I messed up I got beat. If I did not display the correct emotion or do anything make family look bad I got had major consequences. So you learn to behave and blend in. Like a good little citizen.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

SpeedTheRacer said:


> I have a fair amount of discipline, it seems like by observation I possess more self control and discipline then most of the people that I know around me. *I can get up to 8 hours a day on my own with my chosen pursuits (which I do a lot because I am quite independent wit my goal or whatever) and...it’s just a serious struggle sometimes. *It has been a while since I have really locked myself into a block or period of time for lengthy periods of time and I was just wondering, it stops hurting so much correct?
> 
> I was just wondering if anyone had any tips or strategies to deal with it. I will just keep pushing though probably but is it normal to take time getting used to going like 12 hours a day for example? It’s so easy to whittle away time it makes me feel a little on edge and like there is added pressure. I felt agony a few times and I try to channel those feelings and it does help a lot.
> 
> ...


Do you follow some kind of routine or schedule?

Take breaks. It really will increase your performance to give yourself a short cool-down period to take a walk or play a relaxing game (20 minutes let's say) every so often. It's not just how much time you spend on your goals, but the quality of the focus you bring to it, that will move you forward.

I can get that anxious feeling if I'm not progressing as fast as I think I should or if I don't take care of my body well enough. It might require an adjustment of expectations if you're being too unrealistic about what you can achieve (how quickly). You don't want to burn out.


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## SpeedTheRacer (11 mo ago)

I was experimenting with a medication and it seems like it helps with the more extreme anger and agitated feelings I experience though not majorly only slight which seems to make it easier to relax and practice and get into the mind frame of practicing I guess slightly along with lots of cardio. I am quite surprised by this.

I am going to try and write down and keep progress to see if it gets easier over time because it's I got back up to 4 hours and I have experienced this before where I used to do like 6-8 hours all day. But I have changed somewhat and it's not as easy.

I have this weird issue with location as well if I am going to practice somewhere I want the room to feel and be a certain way and I don't like certain decor or aspects of a room and clutter. But that's just me I dunno. It feels contrived talking about that if you really like music and the guitar a lot it just seems like something you do a lot of and not to make it into some type of monumental or work like feeling activity but it's like that with everything, I feel like it's just some weird psychological thing...


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

SpeedTheRacer said:


> You’re not American enough to understand.
> I feel like it's just some weird psychological thing...


You are a Three. As, probably, the entire American culture in general, if we would try to classify the common values/traits/motivations that curculate in its environment.

Your motivations pretty much confirm that :


> Everyone just thinks I am a loser
> I desperately want to prove myself to her
> I would like to make something of myself there


And now you are planning to waste a solid chunk of your life and health just to prove something to others, to impress some woman (what do you even expect out of that in the best scenario, in the long term? that she will fall for you? how are you going to build a connection based on the impression from your music, why go to such great lengths just for some superficial impression?)

You are asking the wrong questions, you will just keep "racing" away from your sense of worthlessness, of this feeling of being a loser all your "life" at this rate (It is hard to call this a "living") and never will be happy.


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

The most Three-est Three who I ever saw swore by the 8 hour rule (8 hours of sleep, 8 hours of work, 8 hours of free time including exercise, social life and whatnot); wasn't able to keep up with it because his work swallowed up his whole life, became a burnout and bit of a social reject. Never wiped away that pained smile from his face tho.


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## JimT (May 31, 2010)

I'm retired, so my days are wide open. I have some paperwork and book projects that I have been working on for several years in my retirement. I put in probably a total of 8-10 hours each and every day on them comfortably. But I spread the work out across the entire day (from first thing in the morning to last thing at night) and pace myself and take breaks.

Here's how I break it up:

I do the hardest and most creative work in the mornings when my energy levels are high. At that time I can often work for a few hours straight on some really tough material and have some good creative "breakthroughs."

Then in the afternoon I do repetitive grunt work on the project: Stuff that is maybe more repetitive or more boring but doesn't actually require a lot of creative insight or thought. And around that time I start taking breaks to do regular housework and errands (clean-up, hit the gym, shopping, etc.).

Then in the evening, when I'm tired, I do light back-up or administrative work related to the project - stuff like filing, making copies, taking notes, preparing the next day's work, etc. And I take lots of breaks for other stuff (bills and light admin stuff).

That's pretty much it.

I've been working on some of these projects for years, and I feel very productive on them. The best part is always the morning, when I do my most creative work and have the biggest "breakthroughs." And then during the rest of the day, after the excitement and creativity of the morning's work, I don't mind slowing down and alternating between more routine project work and household chores and errands.

It helps that I love working on my projects; I get a lot of reward and satisfaction from them. So I don't mind coming back to them repeatedly during the day, even after breaks. It's just a question of energy level: As the day goes on, I start burning out and needing more breaks; eventually I need to just put the projects away for the night.

I've read that a lot of book authors follow a similar schedule: Doing their heavy creative writing first thing in the morning, then doing lighter work (editing, rewrites, etc.) later in the day.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Tsubaki said:


> What life goal is it that requires 15 hours a day?


The American dream...



> It sounds like a completely arbitrary goal which is going to burn you out.


...and you're not wrong.


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