# Territorial



## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Blue Flare said:


> So you're stating that we're discussing philosophy and science definitions are therefore banned? sigh, this discussion is so pointless.


Then stop propagating definitions from two different fields vis a vie philosophy and science. lol 



> Humans are technically animals, it doesn't matter if we're supposed to be intelligent, humans can be still be base and wild. Really if you're denying your own nature, they you would need to introspect a bit, my friend.


You're not being relevant here.


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## Saira (Feb 2, 2012)

ROAR!!! Don't fight on my thread or else:





Flatlander said:


> How did you build up your wall? Why did you build it? What exactly is it protecting in you?


Interesting questions. The wall I have while talking to people about myself is there, I guess, because I don't want people to learn too much about me. I like being in complete control over myself and the face I show to the world. I only show them parts of me I want them to see. There are parts of me which are private, my own business, and I don't see why would people have to know about them. Now, I've no idea how or why, but it's been there forever. I've had this barrier between me and other people since the earliest childhood.



MNiS said:


> Respecting personal property is another matter. Otherwise, being territorial especially when it comes to encroachment is dog behavior, not human.


Arf, arf! I disagree that being territorial isn't human behavior. I'm more territorial than my dog, although I do not pee on trees. To me, territorial means being acutely aware of and respecting yours AND other people's time and space. You certainly don't like it when strangers jump into your face or having guests who stay so long you start wandering whether they plan to spend a winter in your house. Things like that make me extremely irritable and boiling with anger.



Inguz said:


> It is all pointing towards 3w4. Just saying!


How come, Inguz?



Blue Flare said:


> About being territorial, I'm no type 8, but as an introvert I'm not fond of seeing people invading my personal space, and if they push my limits too much, I can be rather aggresive, but I would associate such reaction more to having inferior Se, plus all the anger that I've repressed before can surface at such moment.


This also makes lots of sense. But, damn, it's hard to say whether introversion plays a role when you're an ambivert xD Do you always feel and react this way or only when your energy needs to be replenished by being alone?


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

Saira said:


> How come, Inguz?


Just everything together. Emotionally withdrawn, scared of showing vulnerability, yet is as you say it is shameless. If you do not show your sensitive side and hide your vulnerability then what you are doing behaviorally cannot possibly give you much shame, right?

3w4 is imo quite fascinating in this regard. The 4 wing adds some feelings of inferiority, adds extra emphasis on that people will not accept and love the 3w4 if they cannot do or achieve something worth of recognition. Like some sort of internal void where the self-worth is supposed to be and instead is overcompensated for by trying to prove to others that this is not the case. The only problem is that this does not match how others will assume that the 3w4 is like. It's more of an internal struggle being displayed outwards. At times this can very easily be confused with 8, but at the same time it stems from something similar to "I will show the world that I am not how I perceive myself to be!" This can easily take the form of aggressive displays and shamelessness in the struggle for approval, and don't get me wrong here, acts like an 8 because they want to be as grounded as they are idealized by the 3w4. The 8 isn't fixated on shame like the 3 is, and this is why I assume that 8 is sometimes idealized by the 3w4. But at the same time the 3w4 lives in a world where their image is what they will be loved for, and somewhere here the 3w4 seems to forget that even an 8 has just as many insecurities.


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## Saira (Feb 2, 2012)

Thank you so much for your answer, @Inguz. You've explained it beautifully; it definitely sounds like I have 3w4 somewhere in my tritype.  It was always hard for me to connect to the heart types, but I guess there is a lot more I need to learn and think about. 

But, it doesn't explain the physical side - the animalistic guarding of the personal space and objects - unless there are other factors like the instinctual variants or introversion (or maybe it's just some quirkiness of mine). The territoriality I was thinking about includes getting furious at people when they physically intrude into something you're doing. A small example: I'm typing on the keyboard and someone jumps in to type instead of me. RAGE MODE.


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

Saira said:


> Thank you so much for your answer, @_Inguz_. You've explained it beautifully; it definitely sounds like I have 3w4 somewhere in my tritype.  It was always hard for me to connect to the heart types, but I guess there is a lot more I need to learn and think about.


Thanks. And yes, some solid introspection is useful, and asking close ones can actually be quite rewarding. Getting your type right is often very unpleasant.

Feel free to send a PM if there's something that you wonder about.



Saira said:


> But, it doesn't explain the physical side - the animalistic guarding of the personal space and objects - unless there are other factors like the instinctual variants or introversion (or maybe it's just some quirkiness of mine). The territoriality I was thinking about includes getting furious at people when they physically intrude into something you're doing. A small example: I'm typing on the keyboard and someone jumps in to type instead of me. RAGE MODE.


It feels to me that you are well aware of the fact that this is just a detail in the larger scope.


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

Saira said:


> This also makes lots of sense. But, damn, it's hard to say whether introversion plays a role when you're an ambivert xD Do you always feel and react this way or only when your energy needs to be replenished by being alone?


Well, it's worse when I need to recover when I feel too tired, but still I don't like when my mom suddenly appears on my room or when I'm busy writing something, then the least that I do is to give a death glare or some pissed off statements. My worst reactions would be triggered if the person insists on invading my space, and I'm also defensive when people wants to know about my inner world, but I refuse to do it, because I feel vulnerable and exposed.


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

Saira said:


> Interesting questions. The wall I have while talking to people about myself is there, I guess, because I don't want people to learn too much about me. I like being in complete control over myself and the face I show to the world. I only show them parts of me I want them to see. There are parts of me which are private, my own business, and I don't see why would people have to know about them. Now, I've no idea how or why, but it's been there forever. I've had this barrier between me and other people since the earliest childhood.


Exactly how tight is your control here? You say complete control, what does that entail - how much of yourself are you really capable of hiding, and how do you do it?

You say you don't see why people would have to know about them - well, can you think of reasons they might? Can you think of circumstances in which you would let down your barriers voluntarily? 

What were you protecting in childhood? Why do you want people not to learn too much about you now, and why didn't you want it then? I mean it seems like it makes you feel vulnerable, I get that, but why? Is it an image issue, like you wouldn't want them to know who you really are because it would ruin the way you look to others, or is it that you don't know how to deal with your inner substance in your own right, or what?


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Saira said:


> During my noble and perilous quest to find my Enneagram type, I got completely entangled. I've mostly been stuck between 5 and 8. Thinking about my core characteristics, I've realized a very pronounced one is being extremely *territorial*. Imagine a wild rhinoceros, thick skinned and horned, ready to attack anyone who invades their personal space or time; someone recklessly protective of the things and people they care about; someone guarded, emotionally withdrawn and careful, scared of showing their vulnerable side.


Nice image. 

I relate more to the independent, passionate TIGER, although lately I have taken quite a liking to the Jaguar. Both can climb trees and swim in water, but tiger is not as great of a climber as the jaguar. I also love that Jaguar crushes the skull between its teeth whereas tiger, like most cats, bites the neck. That being said I am personally quite similar to a tiger, in that I'm more likely to find the most vulnerable spot and go straight to it when I'm ready to feed. I'm also flashy, passionate and independent as fuck, but if you fuck with me or mine- at best you no longer exist to me; at worst, you are sorry that you ever met me.



> I'm not thinking about shyness; I'm very outspoken and pretty much shameless. Nor is it aggression (though I do enjoy conquering people and objectives)  it's more like the feeling is just _there_, a wall nothing must break or else I'll become a weak little child.
> This is an instinctual, gut reaction, subconscious and very strong, and definitely coming from being in tune with the boundaries between myself and the outside world. Is that pointing to 8, a gut type?


Hmm, I'm not exactly scared of showing my vulnerable side. My vulnerability issue is a bit different than that.

- I feel emotions and reactions easily, but I don't often feel _truly_ vulnerable. 
- To me, true vulnerability means that I will be affected very deeply by the other person's actions which are out of my control. This hardly ever happens. When it does, I alternately withdraw or find a way to get in control. I don't need to control everything - by any means - in fact, I never think before I talk or type, put my foot in my mouth constantly, and take major risks without a second thought - but I have the control that is most important. I pick my battles.
- I enjoy making myself vulnerable and then beating the odds. For instance I function best in crises and extreme circumstances. I can be sloppy and unthoughtful, but when I'm in danger I'm quick on my feet, twice as strong, ten times as fast, slick as fuck. I might not be the slickest person day to day, but an adrenaline rush does the trick. I also wrote the most powerful papers in school if I waited til the very last minute. This is part of why I trust myself to always be in control, without having to control everything; and also why experiences that some people might consider 'vulnerability' don't scare me. I know that in most cases, if danger happens, I will find a way to either escape, or get on top.
- People think I show my vulnerability easily, but what they don't understand is, when you have no shame and you let it all hang out, they can't do anything to hurt you. Because it's all right there; you have nothing to hide. That doesn't mean that I actually have nothing to hide, it just means that I'm not prone to hide things that other people do; I pick and choose, and protect only what is most sacred and tender. I don't waste my efforts pretending I have no feelings, pretending I have more feelings than I do, trying to seem tough, scaring people, coddling people, sucking up, or putting on demonstrations to protect myself. I am confident that when I need control, I can get it.



> Can you connect to this? Are you a territorial animal?


I am possessive and territorial. Where the invasion of my territory is concerned, I am anything from a savage beast to a wounded kitten burrowing under the bed, depending on the hour. Much like a cat, when I'm wounded, I keep to myself.



> Which types do you think are most likely to be this way?


Not sure *shrug*
In and of itself, I don't know if territorialism is type-related, but I am watching this thread to see how the inquisitions and idea-bouncing pans out. 

The one thing I can say is that possessiveness and territorial behavior/ mindset is one of many reasons that I mistyped at 8, and I do think this mindset is overly attributed to 8 and can also belong to other types. In my case, what looked like an integrated 8 - on so many levels - ended up being a bloodthirsty 4.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Saira said:


> ROAR!!! Don't fight on my thread or else:


You got it. 



> Arf, arf! I disagree that being territorial isn't human behavior. I'm more territorial than my dog, although I do not pee on trees. To me, territorial means being acutely aware of and respecting yours AND other people's time and space. You certainly don't like it when strangers jump into your face or having guests who stay so long you start wandering whether they plan to spend a winter in your house. Things like that make me extremely irritable and boiling with anger.


Ah, well then you and I are thinking of different territorial behavior. If you're assigned a work space or purchase a parcel of land then it is fully within your rights to defend it from any and all outsiders. 

I was thinking more along the lines of a group of people who get together and occupy a public space and claim it theirs through means of intimidation. Much like how street gangs 'claim' the street they live on or a large group of people can claim a park for the day by crowding everyone else out due to the size of their group.

Which is why I wrote that private property rights are another matter, and I should've included personal space.


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

MNiS said:


> Then stop propagating definitions from two different fields vis a vie philosophy and science. lol


so you live in a universe where it's either philosophy or science? on planet Earth, the two don't contradict one another's existence. but you fail to understand the basic nature and extent of either. philosophy is how you choose to interpret things (essentially it's just some mindless blabber, unless it actually leads to a useful end, like the Enlightenment era ideas did). science is what the world and life actually is. or do you think airplanes fly on philosophy? if you're not animal, then next time you contract some illness, you shouldn't let the doctor treat your e.g. ion channels (that you inherited from bacteria, by the way), or whatever else is wrong with you, and just tell him you'd like to be healed through spiritual powers. medicine only works on biological animal organisms.

in the end, philosophy only gets you so far. it never overrides the actual physics. you may choose to interpret planet Venus in the sky as a star all you want, but there is a unanimous reality to what Venus is, and philosophical interpretations do not influence its nature in any form. all your philosophizing doesn't turn a planet into a natural thermonuclear fusion reactor.

philosophy is the limited subjective interpretation. science is the actual reality. it's a no-brainer which one takes precedence.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

meridannight said:


> so you live in a universe where it's either philosophy or science? on planet Earth, the two don't contradict one another's existence. but you fail to understand the basic nature and extent of either. philosophy is how you choose to interpret things (essentially it's just some mindless blabber, unless it actually leads to a useful end, like the Enlightenment era ideas did). science is what the world and life actually is. or do you think airplanes fly on philosophy? if you're not animal, then next time you contract some illness, you shouldn't let the doctor treat your e.g. ion channels (that you inherited from bacteria, by the way), or whatever else is wrong with you, and just tell him you'd like to be healed through spiritual powers. medicine only works on biological animal organisms.


Choosing to be willfully ignorant of the overlapping and discrete nature of science and philosophy doesn't add any weight to your argument. Does science handle issues of morality or ethics especially when it comes to experimentation on other living beings? There are two different domains of knowledge and thus two differing definitions. This should be obvious.



> in the end, philosophy only gets you so far. it never overrides the actual physics. you may choose to interpret planet Venus in the sky as a star all you want, but there is a unanimous reality to what Venus is, and philosophical interpretations do not influence its nature in any form. all your philosophizing doesn't turn a planet into a natural thermonuclear fusion reactor.


I don't disagree. The fundamental questions that both fields answer is "Why?" and "How?" respectively.



> philosophy is the limited subjective interpretation. science is the actual reality. it's a no-brainer which one takes precedence.


Then you would be mistaken. One of the most fundamental aspects of science is that it always be conducted ethically. The Nazis and Japanese conducted thousands of experiments on live humans during WWII which would be considered crimes against humanity today. Science without a moral compass is blind.


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

MNiS said:


> There are two different domains of knowledge and thus two differing definitions. This should be obvious.


this is where you and i will forever disagree. you see philosophy as ''knowledge''. i don't. there is only one kind of knowledge, because there is only one indispensable physical reality. not two. Venus is not a planet and a star, both at the same time. you can have differing interpretations on it when you lack understanding of the underlying phenomena, but you don't really have different types of knowledge on it at any given point. you have different types of ''possible'' knowledge, or possibilities. once you buy a telescope the possibilities reduce to one singular knowledge. it's undeniable basics of life.



> Then you would be mistaken. One of the most fundamental aspects of science is that it always be conducted ethically. The Nazis and Japanese conducted thousands of experiments on live humans during WWII which would be considered crimes against humanity today. Science without a moral compass is blind.


i'm not saying science has never done a ''bad'' thing (it did invent the atomic bomb), and i am not up for such a discussion since i don't care about the moral implications side of it. this is where you are delving into the ethics. i was only talking about the physical reality in existence (the knowledge, to use your term), not the quality of that reality (the philosophical interpretation/morals/ethics). the latter is not knowledge. it's a questionable point of view that you will never get every person in the world to agree on. ergo, it's not knowledge. and most importantly, it doesn't have an actual palpable physical existence to it, so it can't by any stretch of imagination be described as ''knowledge'', or reality. philosophy is ephemeral. it doesn't actually exist. 

the actual lab experiments are not conducted in two different reality mediums (to produce two different types of knowledge as you put it). they are conducted in one integral physical world. and the results will be what they are in that physical world, whether the experiments are done ethically or unethically. i.e. science without a moral compass still yields the same results as when conducted when more morally-minded. ethics is not any kind of aspect of science at all. ergo, there is only one kind of reality.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

meridannight said:


> this is where you and i will forever disagree. you see philosophy as ''knowledge''. i don't. there is only one kind of knowledge, because there is only one indispensable physical reality. not two. Venus is not a planet and a star, both at the same time. you can have differing interpretations on it when you lack understanding of the underlying phenomena, but you don't really have different types of knowledge on it at any given point. you have different types of ''possible'' knowledge, or possibilities. once you buy a telescope the possibilities reduce to one singular knowledge. it's undeniable basics of life.


Spoken like someone who hasn't been exposed to science their entire life. I'll assume you understand the difference between empiricism and rationalism, correct? If not, then please educate yourself first before trying to start a conversation about this topic as anyone with such a background would find you to be woefully ignorant.



> i'm not saying science has never done a ''bad'' thing (it did invent the atomic bomb), and i am not up for such a discussion since i don't care about the moral implications side of it. this is where you are delving into the ethics. i was only talking about the physical reality in existence (the knowledge, to use your term), not the quality of that reality (the philosophical interpretation/morals/ethics). the latter is not knowledge.


Someone comes into your home, rapes your wife, kills your children and steals everything you own. The police capture the man and upon interrogation is asked why he did it to which he responds, "If I didn't get caught it would've improved my situation." Going by your logic, that man was just trying to improve his situation and ethics or morality have nothing to do with the situation, correct? The clear answer is no, he broke the law. Therein lies the analog. Justice involves adhering to laws and sound Science involves adhering to ethics and or morality. Your views on knowledge or completely tangential to this point.



> it's a questionable point of view that you will never get every person in the world to agree on. ergo, it's not knowledge. and most importantly, it doesn't have an actual palpable physical existence to it, so it can't by any stretch of imagination be described as ''knowledge'', or reality. philosophy is ephemeral. it doesn't actually exist.


Knowledge is ephemeral too. How do you know you really exist and you're not just living in someone's dream?



> and the results will be what they are in that physical world, whether the experiments are done ethically or unethically. i.e. science without a moral compass still yields the same results as when conducted when more morally-minded. ethics is not any kind of aspect of science at all. ergo, there is only one kind of reality.


Oh yes, how about we nominate you for aspiring war criminal while we're at it.


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

MNiS said:


> Spoken like someone who hasn't been exposed to science their entire life. I'll assume you understand the difference between empiricism and rationalism, correct? If not, then please educate yourself first before trying to start a conversation about this topic as anyone with such a background would find you to be woefully ignorant.



no, actually that's you in this conversation. i'm doing just fine on the topic of science with my friends who have background in aviation, aerodynamics, engineering, physics, astronomy, and medicine; thank you very much.




> Someone comes into your home, rapes your wife, kills your children and steals everything you own.


i'm gay. no kids ever. but if anyone raped my partner their reason wouldn't matter. rape still happened whether they did it because they got carried away in passion, or because they wanted to cause hurt. that's been my stance all along. you're the one who keeps saying reality and its subjective interpretations are on equal footing with one another. they are not. 



> The police capture the man and upon interrogation is asked why he did it to which he responds, "If I didn't get caught it would've improved my situation." Going by your logic, that man was just trying to improve his situation and ethics or morality have nothing to do with the situation, correct? The clear answer is no, he broke the law. Therein lies the analog. Justice involves adhering to laws and sound Science involves adhering to ethics and or morality. Your views on knowledge or completely tangential to this point.


this paragraph has no sense to it whatsoever. no analog, no parallel, not even an resemblance of being connected to what we've been talking about. it's just a string of nonsense. you're just creating a completely abstract scenario with increased complexity/entropy and expect me to fall for its being applicable to what i've been saying. not falling for it. next time, put some actual effort into it.



> Oh yes, how about we nominate you for aspiring war criminal while we're at it.


nominate me for whatever the hell you want. doesn't change the reality of who i am not one single bit.


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## HellCat (Jan 17, 2013)

MNiS said:


> Spoken like someone who hasn't been exposed to science their entire life. I'll assume you understand the difference between empiricism and rationalism, correct? If not, then please educate yourself first before trying to start a conversation about this topic as anyone with such a background would find you to be woefully ignorant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just curious. Are you trolling or just picking at him to see what hes made of? Not meant in judgement.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

LeoCat said:


> Just curious. Are you trolling or just picking at him to see what hes made of? Not meant in judgement.


He doesn't see the value of ethics in science so I was providing an analogy in terms he would more likely understand/appreciate. I'm offended that you think I'm trolling.


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## HellCat (Jan 17, 2013)

MNiS said:


> He doesn't see the value of ethics in science so I was providing an analogy in terms he would more likely understand/appreciate. I'm offended that you think I'm trolling.


Its okay. I am sure its not the first time someone considered. You'll make it.


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## Saira (Feb 2, 2012)

Flatlander said:


> Exactly how tight is your control here? You say complete control, what does that entail - how much of yourself are you really capable of hiding, and how do you do it?
> 
> You say you don't see why people would have to know about them - well, can you think of reasons they might? Can you think of circumstances in which you would let down your barriers voluntarily?


I don't think I have particularly good control here. The only emotions I accept and openly show are happiness and anger. I hide everything else behind a calm facade, but I think the tension is visible. Sometimes I feel like I'm crackling with energy sparks. My face and body language are calm and content, but I've had people say to me they can feel how highly strung I am. At those moments I feel artificial... It's not natural for me to hide my emotions, but I do it anyway. The reason is that I don't want others to see me being, well, human. I'm much more sensitive than I want to be, and I hate it. So I don't let it show. I don't think there are any circumstances in which I'd voluntarily let my guard down, I'd rather just internally stuff away my emotions, keep my head high and go on with my life.



> What were you protecting in childhood? Why do you want people not to learn too much about you now, and why didn't you want it then? I mean it seems like it makes you feel vulnerable, I get that, but why? Is it an image issue, like you wouldn't want them to know who you really are because it would ruin the way you look to others, or is it that you don't know how to deal with your inner substance in your own right, or what?


You've hit a couple of points here, and thank you for that, because I probably wouldn't be able to do it on my own.  I've thought about this now, and I think it's both an image issue (I want to appear strong and flawless, inspiring respect rather than empathy) and my own immature inability to accept that I _do_ feel something other that happiness or anger. I fight my negative emotions with a focused will, feeling like an old warrior who's lived through hell and now there's not much that can disturb him. This mechanism is natural to me and it makes me feel good, much more than the acceptance of some emotions.

I don't think I was protecting anything in childhood except my pride. My family has lived through a decade of wars and poverty, and they became a little loco, to the point of being psychologically abusive. Even as a child, I had to be the strong one, since my father is emotionally infantile and spoiled, like a little girl (making his abusiveness look even sillier). It always made me sick, so I became the opposite. When it comes to hiding my vulnerable side from peers, I've just always had this feeling I'm gonna lose their respect if I weren't a strong person.


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## Saira (Feb 2, 2012)

@Animal, I can identify with so many of your points. We're both kittens (I'm a rhino, but also a leopard, elegant, solitary and fierce). @LeoCat is also feline :kitteh:



Animal said:


> I enjoy making myself vulnerable and then beating the odds. For instance I function best in crises and extreme circumstances. I can be sloppy and unthoughtful, but when I'm in danger I'm quick on my feet, twice as strong, ten times as fast, slick as fuck. I might not be the slickest person day to day, but an adrenaline rush does the trick. I also wrote the most powerful papers in school if I waited til the very last minute. This is part of why I trust myself to always be in control, without having to control everything; and also why experiences that some people might consider 'vulnerability' don't scare me. I know that in most cases, if danger happens, I will find a way to either escape, or get on top.


This inspired me to take a little risky endeavor! I also function a thousand times better in a crisis; I'm practically a zombie until I feel some adrenaline in my body. And I guess showing vulnerability - allowing people get into my territory - would put me into a same state as a skydive jump.  I never thought about it before... I'm gonna try it out when the right situation comes.



> People think I show my vulnerability easily, but what they don't understand is, when you have no shame and you let it all hang out, they can't do anything to hurt you. Because it's all right there; you have nothing to hide. That doesn't mean that I actually have nothing to hide, it just means that I'm not prone to hide things that other people do; I pick and choose, and protect only what is most sacred and tender. I don't waste my efforts pretending I have no feelings, pretending I have more feelings than I do, trying to seem tough, scaring people, coddling people, sucking up, or putting on demonstrations to protect myself. I am confident that when I need control, I can get it.


You are invincible, my dear Animal. This is beautiful. Have you always accepted yourself so completely, or was it something you had to work on?


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## HellCat (Jan 17, 2013)

Saira said:


> @_Animal_, I can identify with so many of your points. We're both kittens (I'm a rhino, but also a leopard, elegant, solitary and fierce). @_LeoCat_ is also feline :kitteh:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Prepare to have a lot of fucking vodka or whiskey on hand when you do. For the tremors after.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Saira said:


> @_Animal_, I can identify with so many of your points. We're both kittens (I'm a rhino, but also a leopard, elegant, solitary and fierce). @_LeoCat_ is also feline :kitteh:


Purr... roar. 



> This inspired me to take a little risky endeavor!


Oh really?? That makes me happy. I'm so curious what the endeavor is.. :kitteh:




> You are invincible, my dear Animal. This is beautiful.


Not invincible. Romantic love is my achilles heel. 



> Have you always accepted yourself so completely, or was it something you had to work on?


I started writing good songs when I was very young, and wrote my first 400 page sci-fi/ fantasy book by the time I was 12. That was not exactly 'good,' lol. I didn't discuss it with anyone else for years. My parents knew I was locked in my room writing but I would get feisty when they wanted to know more. I have only shown that particular book to only one person. Still, I did it, which gave me a sense of purpose.

As for the music.. I was very, very good at it young. Full songs were practically writing themselves through me at age 8. I never learned how to read notes, though I tried & had private lessons - but once I learned chord theory at age 11 (all I needed was someone to tell me what a C chord is, and then I knew all the others from logic) ... I could sight-read any chord chart and transpose it into any key at the same time, on piano, while singing. I also was amazing at all matters of academics until 8th grade when science became difficult. I never did get any better at science. Up until my illness destroyed my brain at 16, I was also a math wiz and remembered everything I read so I could argue with the history teachers.

All that being said, I was naturally a person of low self-esteem, believe it or not. I knew I had all these assets, and my parents made sure I knew.. but I hated them because I felt replaced when my brother was born & I was 2.5 years old. I was confident on stage, but I could never bring myself to believe a boy liked me. I was naturally brave, and when me & two other friends had a crush on a boy in 4th grade, they dared me to write him a note, and I did, and I got a call from a popular girl pretending to be him, asking me embarrassing questions, and I heard all the other girls - and the boy - laughing in the background. I decided after that I would never make a move again; I would make sure I was in control and the man showed his feelings first. I kept this promise until I was 29, when I was madly obsessed with a close friend and his sister told me that he loved me, but he was 7 years younger.. so I decided to just make the move. I don't drink but I had to get very drunk and then I jumped in his lap. I also asked him to commit to me the next day.. this was the bravest thing I've done in my whole life. However, a year into our relationship, we were fighting a lot and I told him I need him to change xyz. I asked him if there's anything I'm doing that he'd like me to change. He said, simply, "I need you to believe I love you." Then, "I know I'm not perfect, and I make these mistakes, but it's not because I don't love you - it's because I am imperfect."

This was like a dagger to the heart because he was right about me. I never believed any man loved me. Or if he did, I was certain he would find someone better and I would be replaced. With my friends I'm fine, because they are free to have other friends, so I don't need to be perfect or 'the best.' With a boyfriend I need to be 'the best' or else he will leave. And I am so hyper-aware of all the ways in which I fall short, and all the things someone could want that I can't provide, that I end up shooting myself in the foot.

Prior to age 29, as i'm sure you can imagine, I lost a lot of great opportunities because of my absolute inability to show vulnerable feelings, to make a move first, to put myself on the line. 95% of my lyrics pertain to this issue.

So despite tremendous life-long confidence in some areas - namely, my talent and my mind - I have almost zero confidence in the romantic arena. I am confident in my looks when it comes to photos & stage. I am confident that I'm a great friend. I am confident that I'm interesting and intelligent enough that people love my creative work. I get fan mail regularly, but even if I didn't, I know the strength of my work. however somehow, this does not add up to making me feel like I could be a man's everything, like he will love me despite my flaws, etc. I also doubt my ability to be compassionate and do 'teamwork' because I am inordinately, hopelessly independent, and my primary dedication is to my craft. And I am certain that no kind sensitive guy (which is the only guys I'm attracted to) will accept that. They will want more doting & love than I can give. They will seek a wife, and I am not a wife; I am a tornado. So I am convinced deep down, that even if someone is obsessed and starstruck by my talents and mind, he will be gone once the deeper stuff becomes clear. For that reason, I let men know EVERYTHING that's wrong with me from the get-go, wanting to be loved as I am, not as an illusion of something I'm not. I over-emphasize my faults and spend a lot of time withdrawing, feeling too exposed and anticipating rejection. I have nightmares and lose my appetite and even get fevers. Then I feel like I have to be alone to protect myself. And then if he still chases after me, I wonder whether he's sane. And thus the push-pull begins.


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## Saira (Feb 2, 2012)

@Animal, I understand that feeling about having to be perfect in a romantic relationship. But you've got so many fucking qualities that it's - no offense meant - stupid to lack confidence in that area. I don't know you, but from what I know from here, you are one of the most impressive people I've come across in my life. You are beautiful and your personality is, yeah, like a tornado - breathtakingly strong. There are people who are both sensitive and tough, and being so open about what and how much you can give, you're going to attract only those who deserve you, who can accept you completely. Think of it as a filter for the weak. A survival game.

I'm striving towards the acceptance of my complete personality. There's so much I need to become aware of before I even begin accepting it. I think I'm on the right path, and I wanna thank you for being so open, it's very inspiring. I'm not ready and able to share myself with the world, even anonymously on the forum, but I'm beginning to open up to myself.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@Saira 
Thank you  That's very sweet.

Intellectually I know you're right (not that it hurts to hear it from you, mind you..)  and I always feel like next time will be different. But then, when I'm face to face with true passion and vulnerability, I fall apart.. *physically* .. I mean I have nightmares, can't eat, can't sleep, get fevers. I am subject to absolute overwhelm. And the only way I can breathe is if he shows me affection... or he's kind enough to reject me completely and not be ambivalent. It's absolutely awful. My fate ends up in someone else's hands and I can't stand that. I feel so out of control & helpless, but I don't want to walk away and lose my chance. I really wish that knowing it's psychotic would help me change it - and I've been writing about it and trying for YEARS.. like since I was 12...and became aware of the problem. But it's not much better than when I was 12, internally. It's just that I have developed action-strategies. I can't control my feelings but I can control my actions, so I try my best to follow the protocol that I have laid out for myself, until the storm passes and I start to trust that I won't be tossed out at any moment. 

I wrote a lot of music about this, but one song in particular really gets to the bottom of the issue.. I can share it with you if you'd like.

Also I know what you mean about not opening up. I am open about some things, but it took me a long time to be open about some issues even on PerC, and definitely prior to that, I never even came close. You will get there if it's something you're aiming for. <3 <3


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## HellCat (Jan 17, 2013)

@Animal Hi Tornado, meet Tempest. Shes right you are fucking amazing and need to tell yourself daily!


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

LeoCat said:


> @_Animal_ Hi Tornado, meet Tempest. Shes right you are fucking amazing and need to tell yourself daily!


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

Saira said:


> I don't think I have particularly good control here. The only emotions I accept and openly show are happiness and anger. I hide everything else behind a calm facade, but I think the tension is visible. Sometimes I feel like I'm crackling with energy sparks. My face and body language are calm and content, but I've had people say to me they can feel how highly strung I am. At those moments I feel artificial... It's not natural for me to hide my emotions, but I do it anyway. The reason is that I don't want others to see me being, well, human. I'm much more sensitive than I want to be, and I hate it. So I don't let it show.


Interesting. I see you have yourself typed as an ENTP, I'd certainly agree you seem ExTP, which would be tertiary Fe; that cognitive ordering probably also plays into why expression of emotion is a tricky point for you. 

I get where you're coming from here; a display of emotions is a display of raw humanity. I used to also be of a mind that being human is weakness, though the front on which I have dealt with this has been more material than emotional. What I think you are saying here is that displays of your humanity make you feel exposed and helpless, and so you learned to control the way you seem as a defense, while it was my very substance that gave me problems and there's very little one can do to hide substance, simply work from within it to build power that gets hidden from others' view.



> I don't think there are any circumstances in which I'd voluntarily let my guard down, I'd rather just internally stuff away my emotions, keep my head high and go on with my life.


Life can be surprising, though, if you are strong enough to let it, and wise enough to see the best timing.



> You've hit a couple of points here, and thank you for that, because I probably wouldn't be able to do it on my own.  I've thought about this now, and I think it's both an image issue (I want to appear strong and flawless, inspiring respect rather than empathy)


What does this image achieve for you with others? What do you get out of their respect, as opposed to their empathy?



> and my own immature inability to accept that I _do_ feel something other that happiness or anger.


That's fair.



> I fight my negative emotions with a focused will, feeling like an old warrior who's lived through hell and now there's not much that can disturb him. This mechanism is natural to me and it makes me feel good, much more than the acceptance of some emotions.


What is the root of why it makes you feel good?



> I don't think I was protecting anything in childhood except my pride. My family has lived through a decade of wars and poverty, and they became a little loco, to the point of being psychologically abusive. Even as a child, I had to be the strong one, since my father is emotionally infantile and spoiled, like a little girl (making his abusiveness look even sillier). It always made me sick, so I became the opposite. When it comes to hiding my vulnerable side from peers, I've just always had this feeling I'm gonna lose their respect if I weren't a strong person.


And there's the clencher: if you didn't maintain a strong facade, you perceived that you would lose others' respect.

It's twisted and cruel, because there isn't a human that has no weakness. Enneagram is all about exploring weakness and the inherent potential contained in it for strength - but before you get to that point, you must know your flaws and accept them for what they are. Ironically, the enneagram defenses protect you from doing just that - in this case, your image defense, you even said above that you have come to prefer it over actually accepting the range of your emotions, while you would probably only gain in your appeal to people, and garner more sincerity from them, if you allow yourself to simply be yourself. I would draw a parallel with myself and seeking understanding - I seek it to the point of not experiencing life in the moment, and think it's great to do this because of the benefit I appear to derive, while I would be able to live a better life and understand more if I allowed myself raw experience.

I don't really care about putting numbers to people anymore, but I think you might gain from investigating type 3.


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## Bay (Oct 25, 2013)

Saira said:


> During my noble and perilous quest to find my Enneagram type, I got completely entangled. I've mostly been stuck between 5 and 8. Thinking about my core characteristics, I've realized a very pronounced one is being extremely *territorial*. Imagine a wild rhinoceros, thick skinned and horned, ready to attack anyone who invades their personal space or time; someone recklessly protective of the things and people they care about; someone guarded, emotionally withdrawn and careful, scared of showing their vulnerable side.
> 
> I'm not thinking about shyness; I'm very outspoken and pretty much shameless. Nor is it aggression (though I do enjoy conquering people and objectives)  it's more like the feeling is just _there_, a wall nothing must break or else I'll become a weak little child.
> This is an instinctual, gut reaction, subconscious and very strong, and definitely coming from being in tune with the boundaries between myself and the outside world. Is that pointing to 8, a gut type?
> ...


Yeah well, I get the lingering sense that you're playing on buzz words and over-analyzing them. 

That being said, I can identify with themes of instinctual protection of certain boundaries. I've noticed I'm a character of momentum, once I get started on something it is difficult to stop -- it takes energy for me to change course. For this reason, I can get fairly offensive when people or things get in the way of what I'm doing. 

Furthermore, I don't really have a system to what it is that boils my blood but there are certain things that people do either to myself or others which rile me up and push me to action.


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## The Wanderering ______ (Jul 17, 2012)

Saira said:


> During my noble and perilous quest to find my Enneagram type, I got completely entangled. I've mostly been stuck between 5 and 8. Thinking about my core characteristics, I've realized a very pronounced one is being extremely *territorial*. Imagine a wild rhinoceros, thick skinned and horned, ready to attack anyone who invades their personal space or time; someone recklessly protective of the things and people they care about; someone guarded, emotionally withdrawn and careful, scared of showing their vulnerable side.
> 
> I'm not thinking about shyness; I'm very outspoken and pretty much shameless. Nor is it aggression (though I do enjoy conquering people and objectives)  it's more like the feeling is just _there_, a wall nothing must break or else I'll become a weak little child.
> This is an instinctual, gut reaction, subconscious and very strong, and definitely coming from being in tune with the boundaries between myself and the outside world. Is that pointing to 8, a gut type?
> ...


Sounds like Self-preservation dominancy to me. It depends on why you are being territorial in the first place to differentiate enneagram type.


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## The Wanderering ______ (Jul 17, 2012)

Flatlander said:


> I don't really care about putting numbers to people anymore, but I think you might gain from investigating type 3.


I think personally from that particular statement he made, he should probably research type 6 as well. Feeling afraid of losing others respect could be 6 insecurity just as well as it could be 3s fear of losing validation.


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## Saira (Feb 2, 2012)

Thank you for answering, @_Flatlander_! I think I know what you mean by the "material" drawbacks of being human. You can mold your personality to whatever the hell you want (if you know how), but physical limits are too damn confining. I've always been childishly annoyed over the fact that I was born in a futureless mess of a country instead of some rich family on Hawaii. Not the mention my struggle with body dysmorphic disorder. But at the same time I'm happy I have those boundaries, because they are giving me a purpose to fight. One day I'm gonna smile at my old self from my tropical villa. ^^



Flatlander said:


> What does this image achieve for you with others? What do you get out of their respect, as opposed to their empathy?


I'm not the most empathetic person, so I don't value it as much as some other people do. People I have the best opinion of are those who inspire respect in me. It's only logical I would want to inspire the same thing in others. Being respected means being a valuable human being.



> What is the root of why it makes you feel good?


Interesting question to think about... I'd say it's because I get lots of positive energy from overcoming obstacles. When I fight something and get out victorious, it makes me feel alive and invincible. Actually, I don't even have to fight, simply keeping my head high and moving on makes me feel like a winner. Besides, too much introspection - especially analyzing my emotions - is exhausting to me. I'd much rather go kick-boxing and let the mess in my head settle down on its own.



MainCoon said:


> Yeah well, I get the lingering sense that you're playing on buzz words and over-analyzing them.


Yeah, I do tend to over-analyze some unimportant things and forget about the main points. I've even managed to completely derail the thread, from "Territorial" to "What's My Type". xD



The Wanderering ______ said:


> I think personally from that particular statement he made, he should probably research type 6 as well. Feeling afraid of losing others respect could be 6 insecurity just as well as it could be 3s fear of losing validation.


It occurred to me I could be a 6, especially the cp6, so I read about it a lot. I'm not a 6. I'm still open to the possibility of being a 3, though. It's unlikely, but possible.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

i think 3 is possible. 6 not so much. Most people are insecure about losing someone else. Even 7s 

6 is about a search for faith and truth, a need for answers. That is what gives them security. They want to trust in something so they question everything. It can extend to relationships but fear of abandonment etc. Can also be attributed to any reactive type, type 2, and so on. It's also simply .. Human


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## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

The Wanderering ______ said:


> I think personally from that particular statement he made, he should probably research type 6 as well. Feeling afraid of losing others respect could be 6 insecurity just as well as it could be 3s fear of losing validation.


where does the fear of losing respect come in for a 6? ... the only thing i can think of is that if it was tied to something else of importance--as in, losing respect of others will cost you something that is actually valuable. ('respect' seems much more image-oriented, so under stress, while a 6 doesn't have their head on right--if we ever do--they may mistakenly place importance on something that isn't truly important to them... something i can definitely see in the type, but that has more to do with anxiety in general and a transference of security in order to find security, and not so much on what is actually used in order to find it). 

in fact, i find it much easier to sometimes actively degrade the image others have of me, as it gives me something of a wall to push off from. it also takes the benefit of "easy security" away from me, and without that option, it's like a breath of fresh air has just swept through me. 

the only 3-like/image-like/respect-like tendency i have is to be really good at something i'm doing, and to have others seek me out as a form of guidance (mainly school-related)--but even then, as i'm descending from my own sense of being centered and would like to be noticed for this, i make light of others noticing and distance myself from the praise, trying to make it clear that they're making me uncomfortable (and in the process, i alienate them from myself). which makes it easier to break away from the need to be noticed for something that i don't see as being intrinsically "worthy" of praise, or something that's inherently "me", or on my vague, fuzzy path of finding substance in life--which in itself, makes it easier to really not care whether they like me or not. 

in fact, i'd say that in almost everything i'm involved in, half the people pretty much can't stand me while the other half really enjoy my being there--which is a fracture i subconsciously create in order to create a sense of tension; without that tension, i really have no direction whatsoever... so no, respect, or caring about it, is just a "descenscion" point on my way to losing it in order find my center once again, in the hopes of not needing to enter into such idiotic behavior in the future.

edit: although, there is something to be said of actually being an aid to another person, and seeing them learn something that they are about to give up on (or offering aid in any way that necessary to that person). i do really enjoy that... actually helping people. there is a sense of intimacy, of bonding. to me, that's far more important than how others come to see me for the act.


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## The Wanderering ______ (Jul 17, 2012)

Saira said:


> It occurred to me I could be a 6, especially the cp6, so I read about it a lot. I'm not a 6. I'm still open to the possibility of being a 3, though. It's unlikely, but possible.


Umm... I wouldn't rule out the possibility of being a 6. Everyone at some point or another doesn't think there is any 6 in them, until they realize that enneagram 6 is the most human enneagram type on the system and that everyone EVERYONE has at least a little bit of it inside of them.

Also 6s get the short end of the stereotype pool unfortunately.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Donovan said:


> where does the fear of losing respect come in for a 6? ... the only thing i can think of is that if it was tied to something else of importance--as in, losing respect of others will cost you something that is actually valuable. ('respect' seems much more image-oriented, so under stress, while a 6 doesn't have their head on right--if we ever do--they may mistakenly place importance on something that isn't truly important to them... something i can definitely see in the type, but that has more to do with anxiety in general and a transference of security in order to find security, and not so much on what is actually used in order to find it).
> 
> in fact, i find it much easier to sometimes actively degrade the image others have of me, as it gives me something of a wall to push off from. it also takes the benefit of "easy security" away from me, and without that option, it's like a breath of fresh air has just swept through me.


Great description 


The anxiety is about finding truth & answers. Security in having faith in something. Faith doesn't need to be in "God" but it can be in some type of absolute, something that will guide the 6. That is why the 6 pushes against EVERYTHING and questions it to see if they can truly believe it.

This has nothing to do with anxiety about social acceptance in and of itself, though every type has a gut, heart and head and of course we are all social creatures - that's human - so anyone who says "I DONT CARE IF ANYONE ACCEPTS ME" is probably some sort of 4 "pushing against" this idea or a sp-3 "self-image of no-image" .... someone doesn't need to point out how 'shameless' they are, if they are at ease with their shame. So a 6 is more likely to acknowledge, yes I care about people accepting me. However this is not the central focus for a 6


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## The Wanderering ______ (Jul 17, 2012)

Donovan said:


> where does the fear of losing respect come in for a 6? ... the only thing i can think of is that if it was tied to something else of importance--as in, losing respect of others will cost you something that is actually valuable. ('respect' seems much more image-oriented, so under stress, while a 6 doesn't have their head on right--if we ever do--they may mistakenly place importance on something that isn't truly important to them... something i can definitely see in the type, but that has more to do with anxiety in general and a transference of security in order to find security, and not so much on what is actually used in order to find it).
> 
> in fact, i find it much easier to sometimes actively degrade the image others have of me, as it gives me something of a wall to push off from. it also takes the benefit of "easy security" away from me, and without that option, it's like a breath of fresh air has just swept through me.
> 
> ...


This..
THIS
Everything you said emulated enneatype 6 insecurity perfectly. Someone needs to tell everyone that being a 6 has nothing to do with being a coward. 6 is about insecurity and doing things to quell that insecurity.


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## Saira (Feb 2, 2012)

The Wanderering ______ said:


> Umm... I wouldn't rule out the possibility of being a 6. Everyone at some point or another doesn't think there is any 6 in them, until they realize that enneagram 6 is the most human enneagram type on the system and that everyone EVERYONE has at least a little bit of it inside of them.
> 
> Also 6s get the short end of the stereotype pool unfortunately.


This doesn't make much sense. No E type is the most _human_ type. Or are you saying 5s are less human than 6s? I do think there's some 6 in me, just as I think there is a bit of every other type in me (and in everyone else). What I want to know is which fears are my core fears and why does my mind to work the way it does. 6 simply doesn't answer those questions to me. But I do agree with your second point. I'll never understand why it happens.


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## The Wanderering ______ (Jul 17, 2012)

Animal said:


> This has nothing to do with anxiety about social acceptance in and of itself, though every type has a gut, heart and head and of course we are all social creatures - that's human - so anyone who says *"I DONT CARE IF ANYONE ACCEPTS ME" *is probably some sort of 4 "pushing against" this idea or a sp-3 "self-image of no-image" .... someone doesn't need to point out how 'shameless' they are, if they are at ease with their shame. So a 6 is more likely to acknowledge, yes I care about people accepting me. However this is not the central focus for a 6


Actually, responding to the statement in bold, any type can say the above for different reasons.

1s- They are very non-conformative with their ideals because they have strong ideals that other people won't accept. They usually press on with their ambitions as they try to reform the world towards their ideal(especially if social or sexual)

2s- This one is a toughy. If the two has a beloved whom they feel strongly intertwined with and their beloved isn't accepted by others they may act this way.(Most likely Sexual dom)

3s- Highly Unlikely they will say this unless they are 3w4 and really want the image of sticking out which can look very core 4ish but its more polished and usually based on something external instead of something subjective like it is for 4s.

4s- I agree with you. Very Likely to say this, but may also dramatize sticking out when they go introspective. (sexual and self preservation especially. The social may want this but deep down they still crave some form of acceptance)

5s- Most likely won't say it out loud, but will reinforce in their day to day activities. 5s prefer to share knowledge with others and operate as a sort of advisor of a group more so than they want to be accepted by a group.

6s- Combative 6s who don't feel like they need people, or feel more secure if people aren't around will say this. 6s who do get their security from others most likely won't.

7s- Much like 5s most likely won't say this out loud, but will probably reinforce it(Social 7s may actually want to be accepted to some extent though)

8s- Just as likely as 4 to say this and even moreso than 4s to mean it. Will probably deny the need to fit in with others and go about their daily lives not caring until they meet people they actually connect with and probably have some kind of turbulence towards actually completely connecting with that group of people(unless they are social dom).

9s- Most likely won't say it. They will care to some extent whether or not they fit in others. Than again I have a friend whom I sure is a 9w8 and he says that he doesn't care what people think about him, but he lies to his friends all the time because he doesn't want to feel bad about doing less than they are doing.


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## The Wanderering ______ (Jul 17, 2012)

Saira said:


> This doesn't make much sense. No E type is the most _human_ type. Or are you saying 5s are less human than 6s? I do think there's some 6 in me, just as I think there is a bit of every other type in me (and in everyone else). What I want to know is which fears are my core fears and why does my mind to work the way it does. 6 simply doesn't answer those questions to me. But I do agree with your second point. I'll never understand why it happens.


I would definitely say that 5s are less human than 6s. Stereotypically and in reality. Honestly though I'm sure they like it that way. 5s need to operate from a position of strength in order to feel secure. They NEED to distance themselves from the rest of society in order to feel safe. This doesn't mean 5s never socialize because they do. They just don't want to be fully immersed in anything external. 5s don't want to be overwhelmed by anything outside of themselves. 7s are the polar opposite. We love being overwhelmed, by everything. Its how I get my buzz. An intense investigation on various websites about Celtic religions while listening to Indie artists pouring out their ideas and emotions through song, is just as stimulating as having a pleasant flirtatious conversation with a beautiful woman for me.

Anyway. Honest to God I can't tell you what your core fears are. You should no them to some extent and if you don't then its time to introspect/meditate and reach inside you to find them. Trust me they're in there.


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## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

The Wanderering ______ said:


> This..
> THIS
> Everything you said emulated enneatype 6 insecurity perfectly. Someone needs to tell everyone that being a 6 has nothing to do with being a coward. 6 is about insecurity and doing things to quell that insecurity.


then let me emulate it even more by "fighting" you on the work 'insecurity' (lol). 

there's a difference between insecurity (which is inherently human), and feeling as if nothing is keeping you weighted or grounded--like there's nothing to pull from within. which is confusing, because you know there is a solidity to draw from--as it comes out full force when you have something to push against--but drawing upon it without an external catalyst is near impossible (for me) because it's... like the "will" is always behind me, stepping out when it needs to, but then quickly jumping behind once it's no longer needed; or something on the edge of your periphery, something you can glance at from the corner of your eye but can never fully see. 

even the drive to confront, or to create a tension in your surroundings so that you have a feeling of "actual living", is relying on the external for the focus of bringing this other side into being at will. 

you (i) can't see this entity, but we also can't see what is causing it to remain hidden until needed either. the insecurity is usually a fable anyhow, a problem that is latched onto in order to solve, so that something real can be found in it's place--but after solving, you realize that it wasn't an actual insecurity, but a made-up belief of something "wrong" that could be fixed in order to "fix" you. 

i balk at the word "insecurity" (i know, i'm arguing semantics, ;-]) because it's a facade that keeps one from applying their own will upon them self. after facing it, you (i) realize that it never actually mattered to begin with, and yet the feeling of floating through life meaninglessly still exists. 

true security for me is surrendering to "not having to know", and allowing myself to continue to float into darker waters, and letting the mind to takes it's focus off of life long enough to actually apply one's will in life, in a way that genuine. 

kind like, "not looking ahead, but looking at _now_".


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

The Wanderering ______ said:


> 3s- Highly Unlikely they will say this unless they are 3w4 and really want the image of sticking out which can look very core 4ish but its more polished and usually based on something external instead of something subjective like it is for 4s.


I think it depends. Like @Animal said, sp 3 has an "image of not having an image." Although that might not be true of every sp 3, it does sound kind of "counter-vanity" so they very well might pretend not to care. Deception and all that.


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## The Wanderering ______ (Jul 17, 2012)

Nonsense said:


> I think it depends. Like @_Animal_ said, sp 3 has an "image of not having an image." Although that might not be true of every sp 3, it does sound kind of "counter-vanity" so they very well might pretend not to care. Deception and all that.



Its not true. My dad is a Sp3 (3w4 sp/sx) he doesn't act vain but he cares a lot about what he looks like and his image. I also have a friend who the same way 3w4 sp/sx. They are both hard working individuals but they do subtley flaunt their self-worth not even jokingly like I do, its more random "Hey look at me, I'm awesome at this" kind of things but they are so subtle that you might not catch it unless you are psychoanalyzing them. They also are both very materialistic (as most Sp doms are) and very concerned with real world tasks and responsibilities. However they both seem to have a kind of bold nature when it comes to talking about sex or potentially attractive females. Its like they feel the need to make sure you know they are straight.


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## Saira (Feb 2, 2012)

The Wanderering ______ said:


> I would definitely say that 5s are less human than 6s. Stereotypically and in reality. Honestly though I'm sure they like it that way. 5s need to operate from a position of strength in order to feel secure. They NEED to distance themselves from the rest of society in order to feel safe. This doesn't mean 5s never socialize because they do. They just don't want to be fully immersed in anything external. 5s don't want to be overwhelmed by anything outside of themselves. 7s are the polar opposite. We love being overwhelmed, by everything. Its how I get my buzz. An intense investigation on various websites about Celtic religions while listening to Indie artists pouring out their ideas and emotions through song, is just as stimulating as having a pleasant flirtatious conversation with a beautiful woman for me.


Haha, we were arguing about semantics! I hate when it happens.  My definition of the word "human" encompasses everything a human being can be or do, while yours isn't so simplistic. I get your point.

And that is a great description of 5/7 difference and how it relates to the question of territoriality.


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