# What is the difference between the 4's fantasizing and the 9's daydreaming?



## Felipe (Feb 25, 2016)

So the ego fixation looks the same to me in both this types. Can someone explain the difference?


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## Felipe (Feb 25, 2016)

I see...


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## sloop (Jan 19, 2015)

They are actually very different. It's all about the motivation.

The 4 fantasizes to reinforce his self-image, whatever it may be. But I would also think that a 4 might fantasize about what he is lacking, the object of his envy that everyone else seems to possess, but eludes him. Maybe fantasizing about a life in which he's finally attained what he's been deprived of for so long. A 4 may also fantasize as a way to escape the mundane aspects of outer reality, instead preferring to cultivate and delve into a rich inner life. Now that I'm typing this, I'm seeing that the 4's motives for fantasizing are quite widespread...

The 9 daydreams to block out his environment, from any negativity to simply anything that might overstimulate him. The daydreams are positive and comforting to the 9, as a way to maintain his inner sanctum and avoid being overwhelmed by his environment and any aggressive impulses it may stir up in him.


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## Felipe (Feb 25, 2016)

fringe said:


> A 4 may also fantasize as a way to escape the mundane aspects of outer reality
> 
> The 9 daydreams to block out his environment, from any negativity to simply anything that might overstimulate him.


So again I ask: what is the difference?


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## sloop (Jan 19, 2015)

I thought the difference was quite clear. Mundane and negative are two completely different motivations for fantasizing/daydreaming.

As an image type, the ego fixation is "how will this reinforce my self-image?" As a 4, it's "how will this reinforce/sustain my uniqueness?"

As a gut type, the ego fixation is "how can I influence my environment without it influencing me?" As a 9, it's "how can I create/maintain harmony in my environment without it disturbing my inner sanctum?"

A 4 fantasizing to escape a mundane outer reality is due to the 4 seeing himself as unique. The outer reality may not actually be mundane, but because the 4 views himself as inherently different/special, he rejects the outer reality as too ordinary. And the 4's fantasy life sustains his creativity, which he is neurotic about losing. The 4's mentality is something along the lines of: "Outer reality is too ordinary to nurture me, who is too different, or my creativity - so I'll create my own reality." The basis of the 4's fantasizing. @Animal can provide some helpful insights as a 4.

A 9 daydreams because he fears that the vitality of the environment and the resulting id impulses that it triggers will consume him - which would inevitably disturb the 9's inner peace. The 9 also fears that the aggressive impulses that the outer environment incites in him would cause him to react aggressively, which would create discord with others to the point of losing others or being separated from them - the 9's basic fear. That is why the 9 sees daydreaming as the better alternative, as it maintains his inner sanctum and the outward peace. The 9's mentality is something like: "The environment produces strong impulses within me that would threaten both my inner peace and harmony with others. Therefore I must block it out to preserve all peace."


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## Dyidia (May 28, 2010)

Well, I see it as disassociation (9) vs association (4). 9s' daydreaming covers a wider range can even look like musing about an intellectual issue. When carefully examined it may not even reveal much about the 9 herself. 4s otoh tend to have a specific fantasy that centers around themselves, and I'd imagine stays hyperfocused even when visiting the painful aspects of themselves. The 9 vice is to gloss over issues, while the 4 vice is to make a big deal of them, and you can typically see this by digging into the contents of the fantasy.

There are overlaps though, because a 9 may be motivated to intensify the daydream to create further distance, and most people have an ideal self-image that can seem to include "negative" aspects from the outside. The differences between the two also start to vanish the more healthy the fantasizing becomes.


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## bruh (Oct 27, 2015)

fringe said:


> I thought the difference was quite clear. Mundane and negative are two completely different motivations for fantasizing/daydreaming.
> 
> As an image type, the ego fixation is "how will this reinforce my self-image?" As a 4, it's "how will this reinforce/sustain my uniqueness?"
> 
> ...


Another difference, I found myself doing the same as you say 9 blocks everything that will change them. As a 4, I block out anything that wants to change my self image, this is because I'm attached to maintaining past emotional states. Example: not changing daily routines, repeated unnecessary rituals, wearing same style, same color. Do you think this is more of a 4 or 9? Something interesting I found..


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## sloop (Jan 19, 2015)

bruh said:


> Another difference, I found myself doing the same as you say 9 blocks everything that will change them. As a 4, I block out anything that wants to change my self image, this is because I'm attached to maintaining past emotional states. Example: not changing daily routines, repeated unnecessary rituals, wearing same style, same color. Do you think this is more of a 4 or 9? Something interesting I found..


I think that's more of a 4 thing because of the fact that you do it to maintain past emotional states. Do you use these emotional states to fuel your creativity? That would make sense because you would view outer reality as too boring/repetitive to sustain your fluid emotions, the basis of your creativity.

If anything, a 9 would _want_ to engage in routine/habitual tasks. Less healthy nines tend to go on "autopilot," completing tasks while seemingly unconscious of their participation. If these repetitive duties comfort the 9 and give him a sense of peace, then he will want to do them and will do them in the place of anything that he feels will overwhelm him. Because these repetitive duties require no engagement for the 9, no vitality - hence "autopilot."


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## Philathea (Feb 16, 2015)

Hah. I mistyped at 9 when I first discovered the enneagram and for awhile I was going back and forth, trying to figure out if I was a 4 or 9, and I remember looking up the differences between the two and coming across something like this:

*4 vs. 9
4 - Fantasizes
9 - Daydreams*

Which is.. the most unhelpful distinction ever :laughing:. Because.. I do both? And they kind of sound the same?? Ultimately I don't think your fantasies/daydreams are the best way to determine your type though what @fringe said is all true. 4s build up their self-image in their fantasies.. while 9s are kind of trying to tune out reality.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

fringe said:


> @*Animal* can provide some helpful insights as a 4.


Hehe.

Well - I just wrote this post in someone's typing thread which might be pertinent, so I'll share the relevant bit here.



Animal said:


> I spent most of my teens, 20s and early 30s single (by choice) and focused on my music primarily. If you added up all the time I spent in committed relationships between the ages of 11 and 34, it probably added up to less than 5 years. I will do the math later, but 5 years is probably being generous.
> 
> I felt like I needed to establish my identity, self-expression, passion and purpose before I could attract the kind of love that would fulfill me. And that is exactly what happened. There was a romanticism to it, but arguably a tragic romanticism. I hoped that "he" - my soulmate - would hear my songs and fall in love with the depths of my soul. I fantasized that my music - which exposes my deepest flaws and my humanity, but also my personal vision and passion for it - would lure "him" one day - yet at the same time, I felt like I could not really be loved, or even seen for who I am. That is part of why I wrote novels and music too; to resurrect those few moments of passion I experienced, or to create the passion I yearned for through characters. I had to live vicariously through characters who were healthier and more lovable and beautiful than I could ever be. Or in some cases, the characters were an exaggerated version of my own flaws - yet they could still be accepted and loved by someone else equally flawed but equally passionate.
> 
> ...



Also to add to that..

I put up several pictures in my most recent "vote on my core type" poll. It's not really a typing thread, as I'm settled on 4, but more of a social experiment - so feel free to vote! Though I'm also reconsidering wings, so insights are nice. 


Anyhow - the two links I provided above are self-explanatory. If you click on them, you can see the immersion in my utopia. It's also covered in greater detail in the blog in my signature.

There were also two more links in which I posted photos of myself immediately after trauma, and some of the art I did during that time. You can see me dressed up as Marilyn Manson in the link. It was Halloween when I dressed up as him, but there was a huge part of "living vicariously." I had lost my singing voice, and he was the artist I related to most at that time... he was living the life I was meant to live, and that I was on my way to living when I got sick. My album was being recorded in NYC and so forth at age 15, and then at age 18 (the time of these photos) I was chronically ill and without a voice. So you can see the "fantasizing" element there. There's also a fuck-you letter / photo in this post, for Trent Reznor, which I made in 2002... because he was so brilliant and was doing so much with machines. I was always a naturalist - pianist and singer. But I knew full well if I had Trent's talent, I could also record an album, even with my whispery voice, and "doctor it." But I didn't have his skills, his mastermind brilliance. I can cover most songs on first listen, but his are nearly impossible to figure out, with all their complexities. So a lot of my art and fantasizing for a few years was about music and musicians.

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/874482-animals-core-type-vote-2.html#post29102930

I'll include this post too, to show how I expressed my feelings through clothing. I lived my life as art. I was so broken and traumatized and you can see it - not only in my expressions, but in the way I dressed, the jewelry.. everything had meaning. For me, part of fantasizing is becoming, embodying. Living my life as art - BEING art.

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/874482-animals-core-type-vote-2.html#post29102738


__

In the two posts that I linked in the long quote above, you can see my male and female manifestation, each of which have their own facebook. Another example of living my life as art. I see no distinction between the two.

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/874482-animals-core-type-vote-2.html

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-enneagram-type/874482-animals-core-type-vote-2.html#post29113378


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Honestly, I don't think the types can be distinguished simply by looking at how or why they daydream. My daydreams are really dark, certainly not the comforting kind described for Nines. I daydream for entertainment, escaping boring situations, feeling intense emotion, and for introspection. 

I think it's better to look at Envy and Sloth, which are more central to the types anyways. Envy can involve fantasizing and longing, but Sloth really has little to do with literal daydreaming. It's more about dissociating from the core of oneself. I'd imagine there are Nines who never daydream, but are nonetheless Slothful and self-forgetting.


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## raskoolz (May 26, 2014)

Enneagram 9s are part the gut/instinctive triad, meaning that their core traumatic emotion is hyperfocused on anger (along with Ennea 8 and 1).

Specifically though for 9s, the means by which they try to deal with their trauma when they are triggered/neurotic is by repression. 9s usually take on a passive role and try to opt for the path of least resistance because they despise showing their own anger. Even 9s themselves are usually unaware of the extent of their internal rage because they set up mental blocks to prevent them from directly experiencing it. Usually, a 9 daydreams as a psychological automatism that helps them avoid their more repressed turbulent nature.

Enneagram 4s on the other hand are part of the heart/self-image triad, (along with 2 and 3) meaning that their core trauma is hyperfocused on the emotion of shame. 

For 4s, the way they specifically deal with shame is through internalization, meaning that they like to turn the emotion of shame in on themselves and experience it internally. This is what famously leads to the "melancholic" temperament of the 4. 4s subconsciously project an aura of aloofness and try to make themselves unique as a defense mechanism. Their envy predisposes them to see the world based on what they lack, rather than what they have. 4s internalize their shame based on a feeling of missing out on something. Most of their fantasies are about "what they could have" or about their own perceived "tragedies of being misunderstood".


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## Felipe (Feb 25, 2016)

Dyidia said:


> The differences between the two also start to vanish the more healthy the fantasizing becomes.


fantasizing isn't healthy


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## Felipe (Feb 25, 2016)

fringe said:


> If anything, a 9 would _want_ to engage in routine/habitual tasks. Less healthy nines tend to go on "autopilot," completing tasks while seemingly unconscious of their participation. If these repetitive duties comfort the 9 and give him a sense of peace, then he will want to do them and will do them in the place of anything that he feels will overwhelm him. Because these repetitive duties require no engagement for the 9, no vitality - hence "autopilot."


It is starting to make more sense, thanks.


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## Felipe (Feb 25, 2016)

raskoolz said:


> For 4s, the way they specifically deal with shame is through internalization, meaning that they like to turn the emotion of shame in on themselves and experience it internally.


It's hard to believe anyone "likes" to experience shame internally but ok, I think I got what you meant.



raskoolz said:


> Most of their fantasies are about "what they could have" or about their own perceived "tragedies of being misunderstood".


Ok, that is the 4's fantasies/daydream. But what are the 9's fantasies/daydream about?


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## Dyidia (May 28, 2010)

Felipe said:


> fantasizing isn't healthy


Well hopefully you can understand that a habit can become more healthy while still being itself unhealthy.

And unfortunately I don't think focusing on what the 9s' daydreams are about will be very helpful, but if you're looking for rough trends you can look for narratives that avoid painful realities.


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## Felipe (Feb 25, 2016)

Dyidia said:


> Well hopefully you can understand that a habit can become more healthy while still being itself unhealthy.
> 
> And unfortunately I don't think focusing on what the 9s' daydreams are about will be very helpful, but if you're looking for rough trends you can look for narratives that avoid painful realities.


I'm not looking for rough trends, I'm just looking for the difference between 4's and 9's and no one seems to be able to explain it simply... go figure, I guess it's the side effect of trying to understand something that isn't math based (1+1 = 2 the end!)


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

I am not sure if I made it clear in my last post - for me it's not a matter of daydreaming. I don't "daydream" as in idle thoughts don't pass through my mind. Once in a while perhaps, although I can't think of the last time that happened. 

I have more explicit fantasies.. like several-years-long obsessions that I constantly obsess about, write songs about, etc. I take long walks with rage-music, heartbreak-music and poor-me music in my headphones and fantasize about swordfights with exes, men who I perceive rejected me, or someone else who also wants the guy I want. I also fantasize about excessively emotional, passionate, intense scenes in my book. I fantasize about very explicitly emotional, pointed things... but not random things. So I would not call them daydreams. They are scenarios that stem from emotions that I can feel in a very physical way... based on people I yearn for, or people I long to destroy.

My mind does not really "wander" as much as "obsess." And obsess. And obsess. Andobsessandobsessandobsess and *obsess.*


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

To frame it another way, I don't 'escape' through my fantasies, but rather, I fantasize in order to dig deeper into whatever is hurting me the most.

Not a very nice habit. But I can't imagine being another way. Even though it might have made other people who love me feel more at ease about my well-being if I would "lighten up" or "get my mind off it" or whatever. 

Sometimes I don't socialize for long periods because I can't stop obsessing over that one thing and I'd rather not annoy anyone or feel forced to make casual conversation about other things. My friends have been hurt by this. :sad: Escapism is just not how I work. Though, if I do need to do something, like work or get something done, I can force my mind away from the problem knowing that I'll go back and obsess over it more later on.


I can't "escape" things..it just doesn't register to me. Maybe a 4 with a 9 fix might feel differently though. :happy:


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## Philathea (Feb 16, 2015)

Animal said:


> To frame it another way, I don't 'escape' through my fantasies, but rather, I fantasize in order to dig deeper into whatever is hurting me the most.
> 
> Not a very nice habit. But I can't imagine being another way. Even though it might have made other people who love me feel more at ease about my well-being if I would "lighten up" or "get my mind off it" or whatever.
> 
> ...


I am not 7-fixed but I am 9-fixed, and I do relate to wanting to escape from pain. But I don't know how much of this is type related. Does anyone like being in pain? I can foster some pain.. like obsessing over a crush, but other pain is more unbearable. I don't know why exactly. 

I do things like drink or listen to deafening music to distract myself from my mind and from suicidal thoughts. But I have a history of clinical depression. How much of that is coping and how much of that is 4, or 9-fixed 4, I don't know.. I do know that when I was younger, I never distracted myself from pain at all, though I may have avoided shame-related pain by feeling superior to others. (I often felt superior to others.. then inferior, then mostly superior again.. then inferior and on and on and on)

Regarding fantasizing/daydreaming specifically, all my daydreams involve me or my fictional characters from my stories, embodying the way I want to be seen somehow. Literally every single one. No exception. I fantasize about crushes seeing me and my pain and who I am. I fantasize about fictional characters battling their demons and generally dying, lol. (And their demons are MY demons.) I don't think I have ever tried to tune out reality in that way.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Philathea said:


> I am not 7-fixed but I am 9-fixed, and I do relate to wanting to escape from pain. But I don't know how much of this is type related. Does anyone like being in pain? I can foster some pain.. like obsessing over a crush, but other pain is more unbearable. I don't know why exactly.


There's a level of trauma that is simply unbearable to everyone. When I was traumatized I couldn't cry without taking copious amounts of LSD and sitting at a piano and failing to sing. Then I woudl break into tears and release all my pain and anger and agony alone in the dark for hours. And I would feel so much better. But without the LSD and the piano.. I could not..cry. 

I wrote my post more about crushes and obsessions..rather than serious life tragedies. Even I have my breaking point there.. 



> I do things like drink or listen to deafening music to distract myself from my mind and from suicidal thoughts. But I have a history of clinical depression. How much of that is coping and how much of that is 4, or 9-fixed 4, I don't know..


I've only briefly had depression or suicidal thoughts. I'm sorry you had to go through that. 

During the one time in my life when I was traumatized though (which includes that time), I did a lot of drugs, immersed myself in rage-music while developing photos in my school's darkroom, working out heavily, walking, cleaning, rearranging my room or blowing off physical steam in some way. Or expressing myself..writing in diaries, painting, playing music even if I couldn't sing, etc. One year a couple years after that I created more art than is healthy, all of which nobody will ever see except the teachers at an art school I went to briefly, and myself. That was how I processed my pain. The teachers on the panel were worried that I was on coccaine or "had no friends" (well that part was true but why would I need friends?) and that I was overworking myself and they weren't allowed to give me as many credits as my artwork merited, which would have been enough for 2 years of work if I'd divided it up over that time span, according to them.. yeek.



> I do know that when I was younger, I never distracted myself from pain at all, though I may have avoided shame-related pain by feeling superior to others. (I often felt superior to others.. then inferior, then mostly superior again.. then inferior and on and on and on)


I do this too. :/



> Regarding fantasizing/daydreaming specifically, all my daydreams involve me or my fictional characters from my stories, embodying the way I want to be seen somehow. Literally every single one. No exception. I fantasize about crushes seeing me and my pain and who I am. I fantasize about fictional characters battling their demons and generally dying, lol. (And their demons are MY demons.) I don't think I have ever tried to tune out reality in that way.


This is exactly me. And now I'm mad at you because you got it in better words than I did. Grr. roud:

Just now, I was fantasizing about showing you specifically, the intro chapter I just wrote to my fantasy series. I was fantasizing about showing it to you because it's so motherfucking tragic 4ish that it's almost too explicit and will probably make some people (like 3 fixers and thinkers) shift uncomfortably in their seats. (teasing!)

But based on your recent posts I thought you might find the humor in it like I do. Although it also makes me want to claw my eyes out. It's a scene I've been fantasizing between two characters (who are both 4s, as it turns out) for years, over and over and over.. I've listened to so many songs and pictured this.. but I just decided to put it at the beginning.


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## Philathea (Feb 16, 2015)

Animal said:


> There's a level of trauma that is simply unbearable to everyone. When I was traumatized I couldn't cry without taking copious amounts of LSD and sitting at a piano and failing to sing. Then I woudl break into tears and release all my pain and anger and agony alone in the dark for hours. And I would feel so much better. But without the LSD and the piano.. I could not..cry.
> 
> I wrote my post more about crushes and obsessions..rather than serious life tragedies. Even I have my breaking point there..
> 
> I've only briefly had depression or suicidal thoughts. I'm sorry you had to go through that.


Yes, some things are definitely beyond typology; just human issues.. :sad: I am very sorry about what you had to go through as well.



> Just now, I was fantasizing about showing you specifically, the intro chapter I just wrote to my fantasy series. I was fantasizing about showing it to you because it's so motherfucking tragic 4ish that it's almost too explicit and will probably make some people (like 3 fixers and thinkers) shift uncomfortably in their seats. (teasing!)
> 
> But based on your recent posts I thought you might find the humor in it like I do. Although it also makes me want to claw my eyes out. It's a scene I've been fantasizing between two characters (who are both 4s, as it turns out) for years, over and over and over.. I've listened to so many songs and pictured this.. but I just decided to put it at the beginning.


I would love to see it.. :blushed: though I know these things are very personal so don't feel any pressure.

That reminds me though, writing scenes that you've imagined for years are the absolute worst.. it NEVER comes out the way you want, there is nothing in the world more frustrating then putting the scene you've shaped and perfected in your mind onto paper where it is.. very flawed =( *Hate* that feeling. And I have so many songs dedicated to certain scenes as well; I create playlists and tumblr pages for certain characters because I become so obsessed with them (but so UNABLE to write them) that the only option left to me is to find things in reality that remind me of them.


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## Dyidia (May 28, 2010)

Felipe said:


> I'm not looking for rough trends, I'm just looking for the difference between 4's and 9's and no one seems to be able to explain it simply... go figure, I guess it's the side effect of trying to understand something that isn't math based (1+1 = 2 the end!)


Okay, I think I get what you're seeking.

The way I see it is -- and I'd be skeptical of anyone who _largely_ disagrees with this -- descriptions that say "9s daydream" or "4s fantasize" are painting general portraits of what the types _tend_ to look like -- and that's more apt the more literal you try to take them. A lot of people don't like the idea of having type descriptions that include general trends -- it can feel like stereotyping, or seem too wishy-washy -- but the flipside is we can move freely beyond the cut and cauterized "9s have the passion of Sloth" "4s have the passion of Envy" and so forth. Ultimately, yes, every trait is a manifestation of the core type-mechanism, but since not everyone manifests the core complex in the same way, very few traits are going to be completely universal.

People can and do write type descriptions from a more structural angle, though approaching it this away means you basically have to skip the surface behaviors entirely -- sort of a catch22 for people who want both a concrete and precise description. I don't know a good one like this for 4, but I (and many, many others) thought this one about 9s was pretty good: http://personalitycafe.com/type-9-forum-peacemaker/148336-type-9-down-rabbit-hole.html. I guess you can just contrast that with what 4s are saying here. :kitteh:


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Philathea said:


> Yes, some things are definitely beyond typology; just human issues.. :sad: I am very sorry about what you had to go through as well.


*e-hug*




> I would love to see it.. :blushed: though I know these things are very personal so don't feel any pressure.


I'll PM you with a long list of disclaimers and then the file. 



> That reminds me though, writing scenes that you've imagined for years are the absolute worst.. it NEVER comes out the way you want, there is nothing in the world more frustrating then putting the scene you've shaped and perfected in your mind onto paper where it is.. very flawed =( *Hate* that feeling. And I have so many songs dedicated to certain scenes as well; I create playlists and tumblr pages for certain characters because I become so obsessed with them (but so UNABLE to write them) that the only option left to me is to find things in reality that remind me of them.


Rrrrrrrrg. I remember writing long posts about this in the "meaning vs. uniqueness" thread. I have to find it now..

Yay found it!



Animal said:


> Also, I should add that embodying one's ideals will involve tremendous humility. Because I know from experience - when you make something real, it's never quite the way we imagined it. My album will never sound the way it did in my head before I recorded it. Likewise, my actual presentation will never be fully in line with my ideal self, the way I imagined it. My image of my ideal self will never quite come to fruition, because once you enact those ideals and dreams within the world's limits.... you cannot retain the parts that are simply impossible or beyond you. So, embodying ideals means experiencing a loss that is painful and soul-crushing in some ways. It means that you lose the 'dream' as it becomes real; you lose the imagination... there is an acceptance involved, that who you want to be, simply doesn't exist and never will... but you can strive to get closer to it, and that is truly the best you can do. That is why integrating is so difficult... we have to let go.
> 
> It's easier, and more comfortable, to hang onto this fantasy of yourself that you've had all your life. It's easier to feel angry or sad that you don't live up to it, and not even bother trying, because then, at least you have your fantasy, and nobody can take it away from you. It's actually more difficult to try to bring it to fruition and watch the fantasy fall apart along the way. At every turn, you want to go back to your fantasy and just forget about ruining it by tainting it with reality. There is a lot of resistance. Integrating might seem as simple as "taking action" when someone is looking at us from the outside, but on the inside, taking action means losing aspects the dream. Taking action means accepting that our fantasy is not possible. Taking action is more than blood, sweat and tears... it is sacrifice. It is subjecting our ideal - the only thing we have - to the possibility of complete failure... and also, to the inevitability of incompleteness. It is proving that our ideal was - in some ways - meaningless all along. The meaning has to be in the pursuit, rather than in the end result of becoming exactly what we imagine. That's where "finding meaning in the mundane" becomes crucial.
> 
> That is why many of us don't pursue our most obsessive crushes - because the reality of a relationship is never the way we envision it. That is why we don't record our albums, why we don't write our books, why we don't pursue our ideal jobs or family situations, why we don't work out. Our body, our relationship, our parenthood, our art, our vision.. will never match the purity of the "sense of origin." We begin to integrate when we accept that, and decide that it's worth the loss in order to gain a presence in the world - a life that we believe in, that really belongs to us, and brings some aspect of our ideals out into the world to connect us.



But yeah.....* so true*.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Dyidia said:


> Okay, I think I get what you're seeking.
> 
> The way I see it is -- and I'd be skeptical of anyone who _largely_ disagrees with this -- descriptions that say "9s daydream" or "4s fantasize" are painting general portraits of what the types _tend_ to look like -- and that's more apt the more literal you try to take them. A lot of people don't like the idea of having type descriptions that include general trends -- it can feel like stereotyping, or seem too wishy-washy -- but the flipside is we can move freely beyond the cut and cauterized "9s have the passion of Sloth" "4s have the passion of Envy" and so forth. Ultimately, yes, every trait is a manifestation of the core type-mechanism, but since not everyone manifests the core complex in the same way, very few traits are going to be completely universal.
> 
> People can and do write type descriptions from a more structural angle, though approaching it this away means you basically have to skip the surface behaviors entirely -- sort of a catch22 for people who want both a concrete and precise description. I don't know a good one like this for 4, but I (and many, many others) thought this one about 9s was pretty good: http://personalitycafe.com/type-9-forum-peacemaker/148336-type-9-down-rabbit-hole.html. I guess you can just contrast that with what 4s are saying here. :kitteh:


This description by @*Recede* is awesome! And yes, we are much in need of good 4 descriptions like that. I'm horrible at structural breakdowns though. Damn my inf-Te. I need to find an INTJ 4. Or several INFPs and INFJs who can put our shitty Ti and Te together and still suck compared to people who do this well. >.<


And yeah I agree completely with the sentiment of your post as well. People like to latch onto key phrases and compare and contrast how someone says certain key-words rather than think about underlying mechanisms. For instance, some 4s are blatant about their envy while others are ashamed of it. Many other types will also be blatant or ashamed of their envy, but there's a level of complexity around shame and envy that would be missing from those types, even if they can write a few sentences about it. They might even have complex relationships with shame and envy, but it's not a fixation so it may even be laid out more clearly and obviously whereas a 4 might start quirking at the mention of those concepts.


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## Felipe (Feb 25, 2016)

Dyidia said:


> A lot of people don't like the idea of having type descriptions that include general trends -- it can feel like stereotyping, or seem too wishy-washy -- but the flipside is we can move freely beyond the cut and cauterized "9s have the passion of Sloth" "4s have the passion of Envy" and so forth.


Ok, but those are the passions (basically the 7 sins plus fear and deceit) . The fantasizing and daydreaming are "ego fixations". I'm not sure if they are the same as passions. Another description for the 4's fixation is "melancholy" and for 9's "indolence". Here is where I have a problem: I can see indolence being the same as procrastination/daydreaming, etc. But melancholy doesn't have much to do with fantasizing, unless 4's are daydreaming with nostalgic feels and 9's are daydreaming 'cause they don't give a sh.t about what is going on outside maybe? I just find it strange they are different types with almost identical fixations.


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## Dyidia (May 28, 2010)

Felipe said:


> The fantasizing and daydreaming are "ego fixations". I'm not sure if they are the same as passions. Another description for the 4's fixation is "melancholy" and for 9's "indolence". Here is where I have a problem: I can see indolence being the same as procrastination/daydreaming, etc. But melancholy doesn't have much to do with fantasizing, unless 4's are daydreaming with nostalgic feels and 9's are daydreaming 'cause they don't give a sh.t about what is going on outside maybe? I just find it strange they are different types with almost identical fixations.


Well, whether you describe the 4's ego fixation as fantasizing or melancholy, if you want to talk about the ego fixation specifically you have to limit the boundaries of what the words "fantasizing" or "melancholy" mean. Language is inherently vague, and for whatever reason Enneagram authors chose not to coin new words, but to reappropriate nearby ones. So to be more precise, it isn't fantasizing but specifically 4-fantasizing. A bit nitpicky, but I think this'll help you get the clarity you want.

In that sense, I think it'd be simplest to think of the type as having a dual locus -- both an emotional passion and a mental (ego) fixation -- which reinforce one another. So whether you describe it as 4-fantasizing or 4-melancholy, the 4's mental fixation creates more of the emotional problem of Envy. Fantasizing, in so far as it is the 4's ego fixation, means fantasies that cause a greater feeling of lack, of feeling lesser than, which causes a deep craving for what is lacking -- 4-Envy. Same with melancholy -- insofar as it is the 4's ego fixation, it is the type of melancholy that highlights the sense of being lacking, which directly rebounds into the 4's emotional passion.

And with 9, insofar as the mental fixation is "daydreaming," it is a mental state which fuels Sloth -- an emotional "sloth" mind you, since we're talking about the 9's emotional passion here. I personally would prefer to reappropriate the word "indolence" rather than "daydreaming" because I don't think 9's mental fixation is to actually daydream. At most it is to look at the world through a daydreamy filter, washing out the painful aspects of their experience, but even this seems to miss the mark, as in many cases when I notice my mental fixation creeping in I don't gloss over my pain at all, I just refuse to care or do anything about it.


IOW:

4: 
--part of the Shame Triad (2,3,4) because the ego-fixation causes self-image problems that lead to shame
--the mental fixation is rumination on what is lacking in the self, which creates an emotional craving
--this mindset has similarities with fantasizing and melancholia, but does not directly correspond to any given English word
--for any given person aptly described as 4, any 9ish habits are less central

9:
--part of the Anger Triad (8,9,1) because the ego-fixation rejects realities (internal or external) that can't be controlled
--the mental fixation denies key problems, which creates an emotional (if not intellectual) unconsciousness
--this mindset has similarities with daydreaming and indolence, but does not correspond to any standard English word
--for any given person aptly described as 9, any 4ish habits are less prominent

And we could go on and on to distinguish every type from every other, but bottom line is these two types aren't the same and any apparent similarities between "fantasizing" and "daydreaming" are a fault of the authors who chose to describe the fixations with those words. 

Anyway, that's all I care to explain. If it still doesn't make sense, I suggest picking up Naranjo's Character & Neurosis. A lot of people don't like him, but I do, and the way he addresses type seems like it'd be right up your alley.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@*Dyidia*
Amazing post..... every word was so spot on. *Bookmarking*

/when "thank" just isnt enough/


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## Dyidia (May 28, 2010)

Animal said:


> @*Dyidia*
> Amazing post..... every word was so spot on. *Bookmarking*
> 
> /when "thank" just isnt enough/


Yeah, sometimes I wish I had a box of thanks I could shower over particular posts. But this way is much nicer. :kitteh:


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

I'm thinking the difference might be that 4 tries to find themselves through their imagination, while 9 tries to escape from themselves. But maybe not.


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