# Disprove I'm ENTP?



## orbit (Oct 19, 2012)

I’m fairly convinced I’m an ENTP though but I want further confirmation on it. And if anyone disproves my type, well then reality ensues and I learn a little more about myself. Or I die a gruesome death because the truth is too harsh for my weak soul. 

I was typed by myself, a friend, and a random stranger I’ll never see again. Another stranger typed me as ENFP, which I find interesting since I am most confident in my Ti-Fe. When I did the shadow typing tip on the stickie, I turned out to be an ISFJ which supports the “I-don’t-know-how-to-refer-to-myself-to-random-strangers-on-the-internet-but-me is an ENTP” theory. The exact results were: Introvert(33%) Sensing(75%) Feeling(25%) Judging(22%)

I’m mostly dubious about my type because I don’t relate to the descriptions I read about ENTP and how their functions act. I know I shouldn’t listen to sterotypes and blablala, but in this case, there’s no harm in testing something, is there? 

You’ll have to live with the guilt of causing me brain damage if you sincerely said ‘no’ to that very rhetorical question. 

Continuing on, the function I’m most insecure about is my supposed dominant one, Ne. I’m not very experienced in actually handling functions even though I’ve read about them. They seem to overlap each other in real life and they’re tricky to differentiate between, at least for me. 

My impression of Ne users are they come up with a lot ideas in a never-ending constant stream of ideas, even when they’re three feet under. They defy death. And they are constantly bored because they depend on mental stimulation to distract them and the only thing that can actually kill these people is boredom. They envision what could be because they’re visionaries. 
I don’t relate to this at all. Unless I’m so acclimated to coming with new ideas constantly, I don’t think I have this in my head. Or actually maybe I do because I daydream quite a bit (number one past time because it only costs time and it’s fun) and I talk constantly about what I think without any regard of what I’m saying. My bastard bio teacher turned the higher ups on me because apparently I was asking too many questions in class. He probably felt insecure about his inability to answer them. But anyway, I don't see a rundown mansion and think "I could make this into something great!" I see a rundown mansion. 
I don't get bored unless I'm being lectured about make-up of the pennies through the ages but I think that's pretty universal unless you are penny-maker. Or I'm watching a comedy or a movie. Anyway, I daydream quite a bit and I'm interested in a lot of things so no, I'm not a bored person. 
I don’t think seeing possibilities makes people idealistic, because someone could see the bad side of things as well, but I might as well mention that I’m not idealist nor cynical because they’re definitive and I’m not. 
I’m not a visionary because I see myself living a very normal life as a scientist who’s probably going to study high pressure chemistry or something along those lines. 

Ti: Since we’re assuming Ne is indeed my dominant function, I have to assume this is my auxiliary function because Fi does not go here. I think this is the function that gets stuff done because it made me realize procrastination was fruitless since doing work is inevitable and it didn’t matter when I did. I could do it in block a or block b and the result would be the same. 

Fe: I have troubles knowing what I’m feeling unless I’m writing or talking about my feelings. Also I said sorry constantly when I was younger even though I wasn’t exactly sincere about my so called remorse. I think this also causes me to do stuff because I have a weird sense of duty that I’m scared to rebel against. For example, I don’t like the way my coach expects me to drive my team forward by doing all the hard work while she lets my a handful of my teammates get scot-free and depend on me to win event X (of course this is an extreme description because some of them were decent on their own because they had their own independent coaches shoving them forward). I don’t plan to join the team again, but it makes me feel vaguely empty inside when I talk about it and I still sort of want to join the team. 

Si: I assume this is what I use when I rely on the past. I’m not going to pretend I have any further knowledge about this. 

That’s it. I’m curious to see what y’all have to say.


----------



## winterskygrey (Apr 8, 2015)

If I assume you are ne dominant the only other type you could be is an enfp.


----------



## winterskygrey (Apr 8, 2015)

Do you think of the use of something or the meaning?


----------



## orbit (Oct 19, 2012)

Very true. I could be ENFP. 

I think of both. I first think of meaning behind something or the point before I tuck it away or immediately think of a use later. At some point, most of the time that something's meaning will come in handy for a use. It's like situational awareness, unless I'm misinterpreting the question.


----------



## Blue Soul (Mar 14, 2015)

Learning through disproval... what can be more ENTP than that? This is impossible, sorry.


----------



## winterskygrey (Apr 8, 2015)

Which do you do more?

Aka f (meaning) or t (use)

(fellow science fan!)
(From a little bitofpersonality.com)


----------



## orbit (Oct 19, 2012)

You failure.
And thank you. 

Also, winterskygrey, if you mean what things relate to me personally, then I use things more, I guess. 

(Science is never irrelevant)

I take that back, I do stupid things for no reason but for the experience.


----------



## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

ENTJ. No question about it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Valtire (Jan 1, 2014)

alittlebear said:


> ENTJ. No question about it.


Are you just going to leave us hanging? I want to know your reasoning.


----------



## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

Curiphant said:


> I’m fairly convinced I’m an ENTP though but I want further confirmation on it. And if anyone disproves my type, well then reality ensues and I learn a little more about myself. Or I die a gruesome death because the truth is too harsh for my weak soul.
> 
> I was typed by myself, a friend, and a random stranger I’ll never see again. Another stranger typed me as ENFP, which I find interesting since I am most confident in my Ti-Fe.
> That’s it. I’m curious to see what y’all have to say.


I can identify with a lot of what you said. I too daydream, but I'm a realist, not an idealist. ENTPs are often focused on utilitarian tasks and overcoming them in non-conventional means. That being said, xxTPs are the most iffy when it comes to the E/I line, imo. I can be very quiet and people think I'm an introvert. But this is because I'm either analyzing the social setting or I really don't give a shit to talk to anyone. On the opposite end, IxTPs I know, can be just as friendly a jolly in social settings. Sure, some are obvious introverts, but three come to mind that can be right in the thick of the party, when they are comfortable. What doesn't change is we have a preference. I enjoy/get energized by thinking and analyzing (Ti). However, I am even more energized when I can discover new possibilities as well.

You seem more comfortable with Ti and people often interpret inferior functions as strengths. For instance, I have a great memory, and if I didn't know better, I'd say Si is a strength. It isn't, because having a good memory does not make up for my lack of detail, ambivalence towards sentimental items, and annoyance towards expectations of everyday responsibilities. Instead, some elements of Si are a skill, but it is not a trait. In the same way, Fe might be something that you have some skills in. Perhaps you aren't a great big way awkwardinity, like many introverts are. Plenty of introverts can be comfortable talking to people, the difference just might be that you might prefer to analyze more than talk. 



> I turned out to be an ISFJ which supports the “I-don’t-know-how-to-refer-to-myself-to-random-strangers-on-the-internet-but-me is an ENTP” theory. The exact results were: Introvert(33%) Sensing(75%) Feeling(25%) Judging(22%).....For example, I don’t like the way my coach expects me to drive my team forward by doing all the hard work while she lets my a handful of my teammates get scot-free and depend on me to win event X (of course this is an extreme description because some of them were decent on their own because they had their own independent coaches shoving them forward). I don’t plan to join the team again, but it makes me feel vaguely empty inside when I talk about it and I still sort of want to join the team.


The fact that you tested as ISFJ strikes me as an aspiration to fulfill Si and Fe. Your desire to be a part of the team and have a role points to developing Si. However, your dominant Ti wants to find the rationale first. I'll give you one, because playing sports were a great part of my youth: fuck it, just play. You can role your eyes at what your coach says and then go out and play.

Anyway, I would conclude you are an INTP. Unlike @alittlebear I am not 100% confident and I welcome any questions you might have.

edit* Another thing to keep in mind is gender. In society, men are expected to be thinkers and women feelers. Regardless of personal opinions, people still find themselves drifting toward the expected ideal, or they flee it. You could be drawn towards Fe/Si because those functions are dominant in nearly a third of women.


----------



## orbit (Oct 19, 2012)

alittlebear was joking by the way. She's my friend who is clearly a massive troll. You know way back when, three years ago, we were on the same forum and she caused these massive flame wars like all the time. 

I thought I was an INTP when I was younger so that doesn't surprise me that you suggest that. I read through all of that, and I just have three comments to make:

First, I don't think I cared about having a role because I played three (I don't want to make excuses but I will. We only had one challenge match and I had tendonitis) and I was fine with it, despite playing one last year. I was slightly disappointed but I knew the people who were better than me were more dedicated than me. Also, I am enjoying tennis very much. I just don't want to enjoy it on the team. My teammates make me uncomfortable because they expect to play even though they don't want to put in the work and I get the feeling I want to be ousted. We're a horrible team in terms of actually being a team (though we're not half that bad in terms of winning), especially with my coach's leadership. 
Secondly, the fact you said I tested as an ISFJ and quoted me without mention the shadow-typing part makes me nervous. I'm assuming since you said I was an INTP that you read that part, but I want to make sure you realized that. Why does (shadow)-testing as an ISFJ say that there's an aspiration for Si and Fe? Either one could be my weakest function, so that's interesting. 

Thirdly, when I'm in a discussion, I tend to dominate it.
The other day, this guest speaker came into my math class since he had been a major in math. He talked for a bit until he was like "I'll answer anything!" and then there was an awkward silence until someone asked him in the meaning of life and he was like "Well I think we need to pretend to. I read somewhere that if we realize there is no meaning then we either die a physical death or a spiritual death because we pretend or we die."
And then I raised my hand and I asked something along the lines of, "Why do we have to die either way? Can't we go on living without a purpose?" even though I think meaning of life discussions are overdone. 
And the guy was like "Well… Wait's the point in living then?" 
I then pointed out there's no point in dying either. 
Then my friend distracted me into having a discussion on why I had the freedom of speech and how the guy said he was free to discuss anything and how I was not overstepping my bounds. I think I might have gotten a little aggressive (though I was smiling and people were laughing!) which explains my friend's behavior. Anyway the arguments themselves aren't important. 

I didn't pause to think or assess everything, I just went with whatever fell out of my mouth without thinking. Or maybe this was a case of me just thinking about this before and just repeating my thoughts. I was in the moment, even though I don't like the "harsh" atmosphere of the class. 

Eh. Going in the other direction...
Judging from what I little I know from myself, I believe I analyze first and then come up with possibilities, which leads in the direction of INTP, since I don't recall coming up with many ideas when interacting with people. Would it matter that I don't ask as many questions as I did when I was younger? Or maybe that's because the education system beat that out of me (poor tragic me).
Then again, I'm not precise with what I'm saying as seen from the fact I've edited this post four times already. 

I'm getting confused. Anyway thank you for your input and advice!


----------



## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

Okay, so I've been talking with @Curiphant about what type of NTP she is. 

When we first started doing this MBTI thing, she identified as INTP. I could really see it. I met her when she was in sixth grade - and what, eleven years old? - and she was already discussing a ton of philosophical issues. She would just spout out stuff about, why is life meaningful, why is the world like this, etc. But she wasn't declaring what life was about so much as she was probing it... trying to find the true answer. 

She's also always very inclined towards self improvement, which I tend to think is fairly Ti? She is exceptionally good at analyzing herself, and she finds herself frequently asking "Why do I do this? Why do I like this, when I don't like this? Why do I want to do this, why?" (Correct me if I'm wrong. I get that from you a lot, but I could be incorrect.) 

On the other hand, she seems to have some pretty good Fe. She is kind, considerate, and does not like to cause arguments or even participate in them. While she likes discussing different topics, she shies away from them a little when feelings get strong and aggressive. She's very peaceful. 

Also, do sports correlate any with functions? I know anyone can play sports, but Curiphant is especially good at tennis


----------



## bexbun (Mar 1, 2015)

Going off of how much you typed, and how you want us to disprove, is a sure as hell sign you're an ENTP. my ex was the same exact way. You feed off of your own thoughts and stream them in a way that's almost somewhat pretentious, without meaning to be. You guys just have a natural air of being superior. INTP is more grounded. ISFJ is more cut to the chase. You're definitely and ENTP


----------



## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

@Oswin @shinynotshiny @TelepathicGoose @laurie17 @angelcat and @ anyone else who is interested in offering their typing skills and time 

This is my friend's thread. She's been fairly convinced of NTP for about a year now, but she's uncertain whether she's an INTP or an ENTP lately. Any help would be appreciated, any input about her type. I think she would also be willing to answer questions to provide further information, if the bit in her introductory post is not enough.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus (Mar 28, 2015)

@alittlebear,

This is hard. I feel as if she might be an INTP, although I don't know. @Curiphant, can you maybe list reasons why you think you might be either type?


----------



## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

ENTP seems right actually. I feel like Ti-doms are more detached, they devalue interpersonal skills.. @Curiphant has a personable writing style that suggests Fe higher than inferior. Lots of Ne, but I didn't see a good deal of Si, so I'd say...not.

What would you say your biggest weakness is? How do you approach a problem (invent or recall a problem you have to deal with and explain how you went about it)


----------



## owlet (May 7, 2010)

My comments are in bold.



Curiphant said:


> I’m fairly convinced I’m an ENTP though but I want further confirmation on it. And if anyone disproves my type, well then reality ensues and I learn a little more about myself. Or I die a gruesome death because the truth is too harsh for my weak soul.
> *Whole idea of disproving something seems pretty Ti, but I'm wondering if it's indicative of a dominant judging function.*
> 
> I was typed by myself, a friend, and a random stranger I’ll never see again. Another stranger typed me as ENFP, which I find interesting since I am most confident in my Ti-Fe. When I did the shadow typing tip on the stickie, I turned out to be an ISFJ which supports the “I-don’t-know-how-to-refer-to-myself-to-random-strangers-on-the-internet-but-me is an ENTP” theory. The exact results were: Introvert(33%) Sensing(75%) Feeling(25%) Judging(22%)
> ...


Maybe ESFP? ESTP? I think possibly Se over Ne.


----------



## Raawx (Oct 9, 2013)

I mean, she's without a doubt a declaring type. Look how she dominates conversation! (not srs, btw, but if you are one to dominate conversations, that is more evidence)



alittlebear said:


> She's also always very inclined towards self improvement, which I tend to think is fairly Ti? She is exceptionally good at analyzing herself, and she finds herself frequently asking "Why do I do this? Why do I like this, when I don't like this? Why do I want to do this, why?" (Correct me if I'm wrong. I get that from you a lot, but I could be incorrect.)


Probably Ne. I do the same thing; post action analysis. I, quite often, treat myself as my own research subject.



bexbun said:


> Going off of how much you typed, and how you want us to disprove, is a sure as hell sign you're an ENTP. my ex was the same exact way. You feed off of your own thoughts and stream them in a way that's almost somewhat pretentious, without meaning to be. You guys just have a natural air of being superior. INTP is more grounded. ISFJ is more cut to the chase. You're definitely and ENTP


Hmmmmmmmm.


----------



## orbit (Oct 19, 2012)

TelepathicGoose said:


> @alittlebear,
> 
> This is hard. I feel as if she might be an INTP, although I don't know. @Curiphant, can you maybe list reasons why you think you might be either type?


Well first off thank you for responding. Thanks to all of you. 

Second of all, I think I could be an INTP based on my childhood and how I like being around people and talking, but I prefer to be alone. Like if there were people/friends around and I would talk to them the majority of the time, but if they were to invite me to talk to them more, I'd back off and say no. If I'm not in the environment with a lack of socialization opportunities, I will not seek the opportunities out. I love being alone too. I spend the majority of my free time walking around, thinking. This may be because I'm still young and I haven't found my niche of people I connect to though. 
About my childhood, I read the Ne vs. Ti childhood description things that alittlebear (it's so strange to refer to her like that) showed me. It might have been ENXP vs. IXNP description things, but I can't find them again through google. Anyway, I related to the Ti childhood more. When I was fairly young (middle school), I was a frog and was bothered by questions like "What is reality?" and "Does the action or motive matter more? If I say something and someone gets hurt, does it matter that I didn't want to be offensive?". Of course they weren't as bluntly and neatly questioned like that, but those were things I vaguely remembering thinking about. Alittlebear has informed me that I struck her as an Ti when I was younger too because I was more interesting in theory than reality. I had a thing for color symbolism because I wanted everything to mean more than they did and color is important to mi madre. 
Also I don't feel like I'm Ne-dom. I come up with stupid jokes, random connections (my friend had a feather in her hair and we live in the Northeast, so I called her Yankee Doodle Dandy, which apparently does not make any sense at all), and people tell me that I need to develop a filter (I don't listen because they don't appear offended or hurt), but I don't see my future as a bunch of opportunities. I know exactly what I want to do with my life and how I'm going to get there. ENTPs are apparently supposed to be hilarious and witty and I'm not. I'm not a visionary. I do not see potential in people. Or at least as far as I'm aware. 

I think I'm ENTP on the other hand because when I do talk to people, I can be loud and argumentative (about small details. Talking about bigger things, I get less heated and I like discussing them instead). I love discussions in class and asking questions. I feel very comfortable doing that. I don't think there's such a thing as an extroverted INTP. I like telling people my feelings and what I'm thinking because it's therapeutic and interesting to see their responses. At first, I thought I was purely impersonal but then I started monitoring myself and that proved false. Talking is something that comes natural to me unless of course, I feel uncomfortable or feel absolutely zero connection to someone. 
And that's the only reason I see why I could be ENTP. My Fe does seem stronger than my Si to me, but that might because I grew up with a housewife with dominant Fe (and auxiliary Si… which I hated).

-----

@laurie17, thank you for your explanation of the functions. I'll have to think through your suggestions more before I respond because nobody has ever suggested ESTP or ESFP before and I'm fairly surprised. Though if we're going off first-hand impressions, from what I know about ESTPs or ESFPs which is most likely to be 90% stereotypes and vague voodoo stuff, I think I would be an ESFP. 

-----

@Oswin, my biggest weakness would depend on what age I am and what situation I am (when I was younger, it was my temper, but that mellowed out and two years ago, it was my insensitivity and carelessness, but then something kicked in and it doesn't seem to be as big of a problem anymore.), but at the moment, I think it would be my impatience. I tend to drop people and leave them hanging if I think they've brought their stupidity on themselves, which is rather jerkish and not fair 60% of the time. 

I think I can give you two examples of problems. I don't think I can give you an imaginary one because I always feel conflicted about those. Sometimes I feel like I'll coldly handle it, but then five months later, when I faced with that problem, I defrost at the last moment. I can see myself handling a problem in a lot of different ways. Like, if my friend is crying about something about I don't believe in or I think is fair (like someone yelled at her justifiably), I imagined myself coldly telling her off and kicking the dog. But then it turned out that I really hate it when people cry and I tried to make her feel better. Which I don't agree with I think. At the moment. 
And I see myself handling a situation in a lot of different ways depending on the exact circumstances and my mood. 

In lab last week, my friend/acquaintance was fiddling around with our test tubes and trying to make the solutions all exactly level with each other. I didn't think there was a point to that and labs make me anxious sometimes, because we run out of time quite often, so I made a snarky comment about how much time we had to do things and blalbala, she was wasting time. My friend looked quite offended and muttered how mean that comment was. My stomach got queasy and I immediately apologized, but she didn't respond. Then she put the test tubes in the bath and didn't meet my eye, which made me even more nervous. I apologized again but… I haven't talked to her since so I think she's still hurt. She's the type to greet someone. I was concerned until I started babbling about the incident to my other friend and then they told me not to worry about it, which I wanted to believe because I didn't think my comment was that snarky and offensive. 

Um, another problem… If I have a big math exam coming up incongruence with a Spanish exam (I'm not so talented at speaking Spanish), I may start crying and freaking out for roughly three hours (I don't always). The next morning, I'll be fine and I'll recognize I have nothing to do but prepare as much as I can, but during these three hours I'll dramatically think how I'm the biggest failure on the face of people who care about their schoolwork. I'll picture that if I don't get an A, I won't get into the schools I want to, I don't have as much work ethic or intelligence as I think I do, this will happen repeatedly until I'm a horrible student, people will think less of me and therefore I will get less opportunities, and if I don't achieve high, I'll be an average joe because this won't be the only time I have multiple exams on the same day to study along with the rest of my coursework. 

I don't think it's exactly logical, but eh. I try to listen to logic by writing everything down or writing a letter to myself, but I'm so psyched out that my feelings won't listen. Logically, I know I'm overreacting, but emotionally, everything seems to be overwhelming and do I listen to the side that's screaming and wanting to burst or the logical one that I know can hurt my emotional side and make it worse? I don't mind these freak-outs afterwards because they do feel good when I'm finished. I call it a problem because it doesn't feel good in the midst of it and ideally I wouldn't have to experience these in the first place. 

---

Hm… I wrote a bit more than average… And the topic at hand is about myself. I should be less self-absorbed.


----------



## owlet (May 7, 2010)

Comments in bold again.



Curiphant said:


> Well first off thank you for responding. Thanks to all of you.
> 
> Second of all, I think I could be an INTP based on my childhood and how I like being around people and talking, but I prefer to be alone. Like if there were people/friends around and I would talk to them the majority of the time, but if they were to invite me to talk to them more, I'd back off and say no. If I'm not in the environment with a lack of socialization opportunities, I will not seek the opportunities out. I love being alone too. I spend the majority of my free time walking around, thinking. This may be because I'm still young and I haven't found my niche of people I connect to though.
> *The E and I in MBTI terms are not the same as traditional descriptions of Extroversion and Introversion - in MBTI E = objective (or based on the outer world) while I = subjective (or based on the inner world), so you could be a traditional introvert, but an MBTI extravert.
> ...


*So, I think you're using Fi-Te, but I'm not that sure about Se/Ne. Probably some kind of ExFP though.*


----------



## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

I have read the Enneagram 5 description and thought immediately of her on several occasions. 

I wonder how @Curiphant would feel about this tritype description. (I'm ridiculous about tritypes. I love them. I know they're sort of frowned upon, but the descriptions are so wonderful to me.) 


* *






madhatter said:


> 359 Thinker Archetype
> 
> 359
> intellectual and clever, you find amiable and pleasant ways to manage difficult situations and relationships. often shy, you are slow to fully trust others and need time to more fully reveal yourself.
> ...


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

@laurie17 I just ignore Se issue and replace it with my interpretation. :laughing: I like that socionics takes its time to explore influence of all 8 functions in each type. I also like its relationship model.


----------



## Deadly Decorum (Feb 23, 2014)

laurie17 said:


> Socionics is kind of a weird system, overall. I enjoy it, but I can't quite figure out exactly how it works/how the people who made it where thinking or what they were aiming for exactly. The main thing that stands out is the Se issue, which has made many of my friends immediately deny they could be Se users because they're not aggressive like that.



I'm not sure how it works or what the aim is either, but that's a lack of effort on my part. :tongue:

Methods of Psychological Type identification

I think the majority of these methods are crap. If the relative method were reliable, typing wouldn't be a problem for people. The vocabulary method may be palpable, but I'd also imagine it's susceptible to errors. Facial typing is good for certain things (reserved facial expressions can indicate Fi, but some people take that too literally. They smile too), but I wouldn't consider it a verifiable method. I can't take this system too seriously tbh.

I think the socionic descriptions are improvements of what's been speculated in some ways, whereas some of it is off. They hit the mark with Si in some ways, and in other ways I can't relate. It does make Si doms come across as human though. Do you agree with their Ni description?



laurie17 said:


> True. I think intuitives are often portrayed as the 'weird ones', which is a bit frustrating, because it's not a weird function really. It's pretty common.



I think intuitives being weird or "high-level" is inevitable. (However, if sensors were the rarest types, this problem would be reversed. Wouldn't that be funny.)This doesn't mean sensors cannot be weird, and the eccentricities particular to intuitives are often overlooked. This causes quirky sensors to be typed as N.



laurie17 said:


> You may be right, but I think generally people who are sort of leaping to conclusions and generalisations about functions without the proper level of understanding and thought required to describe it accurately are often writing these half-hearted descriptions which are causing stereotypes and misleading people. It's kind of annoying that, due to their laziness, people have to work a lot harder.



It's great that people have to work harder. Encourages people to think about the functions more. That's probably the Ti talking. My problem is the misinformation it spreads, and the misconceptions they evoke. If you don't understand, ask questions, or at least be open to correction. Don't pretend you know shit. I've thought about writing my own definitions, but I don't know enough. personalityjunkie.com won't provide me everything I need to know about typing. Funny how quickly satisfied people are with minimal knowledge.



laurie17 said:


> Do you think the eagerness to learn about it might be enneagram 5? That would explain the being thrown off and thinking she's a Thinking type, right?


It's time to crush your dreams. I don't believe in the enneagram system. I think enneagram types can generally be tied to function types, and the majority of the time it's used as a justification to rig the typing system due to bias (uh she is so not an ESFJ she is an ENFP she looks ESFJ because she's 2w3). 

I actually think Fi is the mostly likely Feeler to consider themselves thinking types. Fi is a rational function (which people seem to forget) so it's processes can mirror logic. I'm friends with an xSFP who scored ISFP (rather rare for the test to eject your actual type) and she told me she thought she was a thinker. It's the rationality of Fi, as well as it's muted expression and of course, dat Te, that causes the misconception. And stupid shit like only thinkers can enjoy math and science.

The eagerness to learn could be either Te or Pe (in her case).


----------



## Deadly Decorum (Feb 23, 2014)

Greyhart said:


> @laurie17 I just ignore Se issue and replace it with my interpretation. :laughing:


Dat Ti tho.


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

hoopla said:


> Dat Ti tho.


There's a truth in every function theory so far I just need to take the best parts and put them together so they work even better. :happy:


----------



## UnicornRainbowLove (May 8, 2014)

I'm terribly sorry if I offended her. The heartfelt disagreements here seem to indicate it.



hoopla said:


> That makes no sense. If someone's feeling is underdeveloped, wouldn't it be more likely that they're a thinking dominate (or auxiliary, at the very least?)


You can have a preference for making feeling based judgements even though it may not be well-thought out ones. Just as an example you could be a very selfish and uncaring feeler for instance, which could be considered underdeveloped feeling. A Ti-person is likely to have a thought-out system from which actions can be evaluated while Te fokes adhere to principles a lot. She seems to figure out what she thinks depending on the situation which is more of a feeling trait.



> I wasn't aware thinkers or scientists lacked empathy (or that all scientists are thinkers). I'm interested in biology and often wish I was emotionless (which is impossible because I am not sociopathic ), but I'm a Feeler. FYI- Emotion =/= feeling. Let that sink in for a bit.


You misunderstood me. She said that she wanted to become a chemist, and I know from personal experience that they train you in thinking about what can and cannot be known to make a Thinking-like judgements about the validity of something. If she is very inspired by this it can be hard to detect Fi judgements. I was in no way implying that thinkers or scientists lacked empathy. I meant that teenagers often do, but they usually regain it somewhere in their twenties.



> Aside from the system/principle building, that description sounds like Fe to me. Correct me if I'm wrong. I agree she's not an Fe type though.


It's feeling in general to look at the impact a decision has on people over the principle of it. She often talks about things through her own experience rather than how it relates to principles or systems, and she does it to a degree that might well mean she is a feeler. 



> Who said it's a requirement?


I said it wasn't, but it's still a rarity for an ENFP to lack it



> There was no mentions of enjoying to socialize or any indication of talking before thinking. I agree she's probably a Pe dom though. I agree introverts are more interested in self evaluation (that's the definition) but I think Ji would be more inclined to do this than Pi. Pi takes in the world around them, whereas Ji evaluates it. Present your own ideas of what life is about? Who says only introverts do this (or even that they would)?


I was referring to this statement; "_I didn't pause to think or assess everything, I just went with whatever fell out of my mouth without thinking. Or maybe this was a case of me just thinking about this before and just repeating my thoughts. I was in the moment, even though I don't like the "harsh" atmosphere of the class_".
Unfortunately you're right that she never said that she liked to socialize. I misread that at some point and I apologize for that. That whole paragraph was of course just to show how show that she was an extrovert.

The reason why I treat her discussion with the teacher as an indication of being an extrovert is that she is more concerned with the ideas out there than her own relation to them. If an introvert first thinks of how she understands life, that is what would naturally come out of her mouth. Instead her first reaction was toward the teacher's ideas in their own right. It's a subtle difference that of course shouldn't be taken as the sole reasoning for her extroversion, but I'm mostly looking at indications here.



> Theoretical can easily apply to Ti. It's not intuition exclusive. I saw nothing I would consider random connections (she never called them stupid either; she simply doesn't resonate with the notion, which is actually where I could see a genuine Ne dom), and that's not what Ne is either. "Random connections" is terminology for those who doesn't grasp the concept of Ne (myself, once upon a time).


She didn't explicitly say it, but I think she meant it here; "_Also I don't feel like I'm Ne-dom. I come up with stupid jokes, random connections (my friend had a feather in her hair and we live in the Northeast, so I called her Yankee Doodle Dandy, which apparently does not make any sense at all), and people tell me that I need to develop a filter_". It indicates that she has many intuitions/ideas that people around her don't quite relate to or find weird, which is how many NPs feel and are described by others.

By theoretical I was referring to the MBTI step II facet. There they make a realistic-theoretical dichotomy. 



> That's probably thinking in general. I'd be more inclined to think Ti with that one, since it's making your own logical evaluation of a standard, but that's not necessarily true. If the grading system doesn't fit into Te's objective standards, I imagine Te would disvalue a grading system as well. Any corrections on this would be appreciated.


If you make objective evaluations you have Je as dominant or auxiliary, or in other words; you're a judger. Te-people are inclined to look at grades to have something measurable criteria to judge from. Of course often a TJ thinks that grades is the most useless idea ever, but then they often have some other standard to evaluate skill from.



> Strikes me as Te.


It's a typical perceiver mentality, but of course the logic is sound.



> Now that points at Pe dom. More likely Se than Ne in my opinion, but only time will tell.


Which also points to P.



> Empathy is not the same as sympathy. All empathy means is the ability to recognize, understand or share feelings. I think that quote implies she understands feelings or is at least motivated to pick up on them.


Did you not find the quote to be highly patronizing of Fi? My remark was meant as a sassy(in the good way) rebuttal to make her rethink the statement.


----------



## Deadly Decorum (Feb 23, 2014)

UnicornRainbowLove said:


> I'm terribly sorry if I offended her. The heartfelt disagreements here seem to indicate it.


Debate is a discussion utilized to generate more perspectives or allow people to argue a home point. Disagreeing =/= disrespect or offense. Also, how do you know the OP is offended? Have you asked? I think she's just trying to clarify some questions about her type.



UnicornRainbowLove said:


> You can have a preference for making feeling based judgements even though it may not be well-thought out ones. Just as an example you could be a very selfish and uncaring feeler for instance, which could be considered underdeveloped feeling. A Ti-person is likely to have a thought-out system from which actions can be evaluated while Te fokes adhere to principles a lot. She seems to figure out what she thinks depending on the situation which is more of a feeling trait.


Who says feelers cannot be selfish or uncaring? I've known Fe types who are selfish in their own way, and highly harsh and judgmental towards others. Selfishness is a notoriously Fi stereotype. I don't care if people are selfish or uncaring. That won't tell me anything. I want to know why they are.

Adhering to principles is probably Ti, though it depends on how one defines principle. Te adheres more to formulas, procedures or common sense from what I understand.

"Figure out what she thinks" is ambiguous. What do you mean by that?



UnicornRainbowLove said:


> You misunderstood me. She said that she wanted to become a chemist, and I know from personal experience that they train you in thinking about what can and cannot be known to make a Thinking-like judgements about the validity of something. If she is very inspired by this it can be hard to detect Fi judgements. I was in no way implying that thinkers or scientists lacked empathy. I meant that teenagers often do, but they usually regain it somewhere in their twenties.


Comprehending science strikes me as general intelligence, not cognition. You could argue Thinkers are more driven by science, but some could care less. I certainly know some Te doms that could give a rats ass about the topic, and you'd be surprised by the high amount of Ti types who find math and hard science too route. I don't see why Feelers can't be interested. 

I actually think the difficulty detecting Fi is a sign of an extrovert. It's easier to catch Fi in an Fi dom because... it's dominate. Fi is so difficult to express that many ENFPs are hella Ne-Te heavy. I'd actually argue Fi is harder to convey than Ti. 

I've read a region in the brain (I forgot which type, whoops. Brains are fascinating, but technical) causes underdeveloped decision making (aka impulsiveness) in teenagers, but I'm not sure about empathy. Show me a source?




UnicornRainbowLove said:


> It's feeling in general to look at the impact a decision has on people over the principle of it. She often talks about things through her own experience rather than how it relates to principles or systems, and she does it to a degree that might well mean she is a feeler.


I actually think talking about experience is more of a perceiving (particularly sensory) thing rather than feeling.




UnicornRainbowLove said:


> I said it wasn't, but it's still a rarity for an ENFP to lack it


I asked where you heard the notion that it's common for ENFPs to have a people focus. I don't think that's true at all.



UnicornRainbowLove said:


> I was referring to this statement; "_I didn't pause to think or assess everything, I just went with whatever fell out of my mouth without thinking. Or maybe this was a case of me just thinking about this before and just repeating my thoughts. I was in the moment, even though I don't like the "harsh" atmosphere of the class_".
> Unfortunately you're right that she never said that she liked to socialize. I misread that at some point and I apologize for that. That whole paragraph was of course just to show how show that she was an extrovert.
> 
> The reason why I treat her discussion with the teacher as an indication of being an extrovert is that she is more concerned with the ideas out there than her own relation to them. If an introvert first thinks of how she understands life, that is what would naturally come out of her mouth. Instead her first reaction was toward the teacher's ideas in their own right. It's a subtle difference that of course shouldn't be taken as the sole reasoning for her extroversion, but I'm mostly looking at indications here.


Don't apologize. At the time I posted that I only read her initial post (though I've now done some skimming). It's all good.

I agree with most of what you've said, but I think an introvert could react to someone's ideas. Why would they not? I'm reacting to yours. If you want to argue extroversion for me, give it a shot.



UnicornRainbowLove said:


> She didn't explicitly say it, but I think she meant it here; "_Also I don't feel like I'm Ne-dom. I come up with stupid jokes, random connections (my friend had a feather in her hair and we live in the Northeast, so I called her Yankee Doodle Dandy, which apparently does not make any sense at all), and people tell me that I need to develop a filter_". It indicates that she has many intuitions/ideas that people around her don't quite relate to or find weird, which is how many NPs feel and are described by others.


Uh no. It indicates being random. I actually think Ne types are likely to find that sort of shit annoying. That non-sequitur humor kinda strikes me as Se in some ways (and maybe Fe).



UnicornRainbowLove said:


> By theoretical I was referring to the MBTI step II facet. There they make a realistic-theoretical dichotomy


I don't believe in those sorts of dichotomies, if you couldn't already tell. I'm no expert, but from what I've read of Jung (and from people's knowledge of his work around here) I like his descriptions better. 




UnicornRainbowLove said:


> If you make objective evaluations you have Je as dominant or auxiliary, or in other words; you're a judger. Te-people are inclined to look at grades to have something measurable criteria to judge from. Of course often a TJ thinks that grades is the most useless idea ever, but then they often have some other standard to evaluate skill from.


How do you know she doesn't have another standard to evaluate skills from? Have you asked?



UnicornRainbowLove said:


> Did you not find the quote to be highly patronizing of Fi? My remark was meant as a sassy(in the good way) rebuttal to make her rethink the statement.


So Fi is immune to the feelings of others? Fi can pick up on externalized feelings and understand them; they just happen to internalize them. That's like saying a Ti type can't like science because science is fact based.


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

I want to say something relevant but the two of you are so deep into this.

I can't find my post because it was many pages ago somewhere but I copied it to post on tumblr at some point



> * Do you find that you tend to be concerned about what you say and its affect on others or more that you think if you say it it may have bad consequences for you?
> 
> Also, do you try and solve the problem by being sympathetic or by offering advice or by joking around?*
> 
> ...


I think the second point is the difference between _lower_ Fe and higher Fi. As I said, I am bad at actually feeling what you feel. I can understand/identify what you feel and if I care for you it'll make me feel bad that you feel bad but myself I can't seem take feeling of someone as my own.


----------



## UnicornRainbowLove (May 8, 2014)

@hoopla I'm sorry but you simply misunderstand huge parts of what I'm saying and I'm not interested in clarifying all of it. If you're still interested in discussing this, you can pick fewer topics that we can talk about in detail.

I don't blame you though because we seem to have very different knowledge, styles and understandings of typology.


----------



## orbit (Oct 19, 2012)

Edit: This turned out inconveniently long. I would not read this all so for your convenience I'll bold the general main points and make helpful subtitles.
------
*Prattling About My View of MBTI*
MBTI is very hardcore and this discussion is reminding me of that. It appears everyone has a different view of what the functions are and forgive me if I assign one attitude to the wrong person. This reminds me of the book thing where the teacher sees red and the students see blue and it's all about communication and perceptions and ballblalala. One person could be assigning the characteristics of Fi to Fe or vice versa and it'd be consistent for that MBTI system and we could all have different MBTI systems and there's really no such thing as MBTI.

Also, apparently you can't listen to descriptions because they're lazy and wrong but full of stereotypes. So it seems that you learn by example in MBTI and how each person's function works is different than another's but similar. Like I could use my Fi or Fe or whatever that indeterminable function to shoot a dog, while another person could that Fi or Fe power to become a cult leader like alittlebear. =/

Just my thoughts on MBTI because I vaguely get the sense my perception on the system also affects the way I express my thoughts in typing subconsciously (at this point I don't have a bias of a type I think. I'd be happy to be anything because I'm going to remain who I am regardless of my type and I will continue to exist outside of that judgement and I'm fairly happy with who I am) and could be a variable of influence. 

*Fi/Ti Confusion and just general confusion*

I say that because I'm getting rather confused now because apparently Fi is "Still waters running deep" and expressing how one feels is also Fi. 
There was a lot of responses that I read through and I think I'm still internalizing them. However, first impressions are always great. Not really but saying "first impressions are sometimes great" sounds off and not appropriate. 


I am further confused by the videos because INTPs systemize things but the video says that Freud who had Ti had this mind map of dreams that wasn't symmetrical. I agree with you in that I don't like putting things in boxes because I think things should exist on their own and because what if I put it in the wrong box. Boxes are arbitrary. An idea is an idea no matter how you dress it up. A human will always be a human and needed to be treated as such even if they are horrible. 

_Clarification_
It'd be ironic to say I don't like boxes because I'm definitely trying to put myself in a box here. I don't see MBTI though as boxes (though the functions might be… but they aren't boxes but tools I guess. Boxes limit you. Tools do not. At least if my conception that functions can be used in different ways) but rather like self-exploration? Like it doesn't matter that I'm XXXP but rather the process that I got to conclude that I'm XXXP. Like MBTI is too fluid to be a box. The inconsistencies make it subjective.

And I recognize I'll exist as I am without any measures of me. 

*I didn't like the videos.*
Watching the videos didn't help much for me. Can't pinpoint why but I think it may because I saw the examples (I learn through examples to see patterns and how to do things. I can't read through a packet to tell me how to do things, I need someone to show me how) and I had no idea how I'd react. 

*Fi Rambling and what I related to in the F function sense. Fi seems to win*

It also might be because I was like "yes, no, yes, no, yes" throughout all four explanations of the functions. I related to bits like the Mount Everest Fe example and the sum of people being more than important than the whole of people, but also believing that my values should come from myself and people I trust. Can Fi be influenced by close friends? I think it can. That'd be dumb if it couldn't and too rigid. I think that's where I say I can be influenced by others because I trust their experiences and their intelligence to be right and because I usually agree with them. Of course I think if I actually agree with them. 

I also agree that you should value things for your own sake not because of others. I refused to join clubs because I hated them even though colleges value them or something. 

By the way this will appear out of order because I didn't write linearly. 

*Te and Ti Rambling and sterotypes*

I related to the Te and the applications because when I was younger, I used to love theory but then I realized how limited it was and how in the real world, it… fails. They're interesting to explore in a fantasy and through daydreams and for fulfillment purposes they're great! But gold is a commodity that stands on its own and could possibly have similar properties to other precious metals (like iridium and platinum are both used as catalysts to split water because platinum is perfect for hydrogen hovering apparently as I found out a month ago!) but it's used as a source of power and wealth and to run electricity. I don't think gold and think OH HOW WONDERFUL IT IS THAT IT FITS THE PERIODIC TABLE 8D8D 

Again I think that's stereotyping though. 

*How others perceive me. I care about how my feelings project but I don't care about how my thoughts project.*
I relate to worrying about how I am perceived because I know logically, I can not mean to hurt someone but that doesn't matter because they got hurt anyways. The fact that I didn't want to hurt that person matters because it's my attitude and predicts my future actions but how I impact others is more important than what I mean.
It's the opposite for me with my thoughts. If I miscommunicate a thought, since I know what I mean, I don't care. I will continue acting with my current logic system and others should find out my inconsistency and see what I really mean and assume it's a flaw. I dislike it when I mean to write non polar and then I get a point off because I wrote polar but I got the explanation off. 

*Water, not Ice. Overarching structure. Morality. Universal disbelief kind of. *
I do not believe there is an overarching idea or structure that we all fall into, but rather we're like randomly floating hydrogen molecules that. We are water not ice. Justice and blalaba and morality is not black and white and depends on the geography you live in. There are a couple of universal ideas that should apply to everyone, but the finer details depend on your culture. 

Which is probably Fi. I think? Again I learn by example. 

*Why I thought I had been Fe: Example Competition.*
Before I forget, I remembered another example of why I thought I was Fe: I dislike competing and I always thought winning was just holding your own. I'm a tennis player and a pretty decent one by my geography's standards (I was one as a freshie) but my coaches found pretty quickly I wasn't destined to win big tournaments because I said I mostly wanted to enjoy tennis. 

*Conclusion*
So I think ENFP is a very valid idea. I don't want any bias so I'll keep my mouth shut for further ideas. 

I think I forgot to address things but that's okay because please know that I read it and it probably influenced me somehow even if it's not obvious. It would take me too long to address everything, And you guys are moving too fast for me. This is all based from page four. 

Thank you again for your help! I really appreciate your existences. 

*Not Related Idea that I felt compelled to add because I'm curious*

PS. 

Something is bothering me right now. I've had this idea that people are 100% accountable for their actions because they didn't chose to be born or chose to have the genes they had that form their personality or their environment that lead to their personality. They're just some high number percent accountable. So everyone should have a slight sense of sympathy for everyone because in a tiny, tiny, tiny way it's not their fault? But it is in current reality, 100%. Can we even judge accountability? Like nobody is truly one hundred percent hatable in reality (though the ideas of serial killers is quite detestable and I think if I met a serial killer and I knew it, I would have zero percent sympathy, violating this idea.) 

Like I think this randomness makes us human and it's why everyone should be considered human among other reasons. 

I've thinking about this again in response to alittlebear's latest discussions that's she's talked to me about but I've had this idea for a while. I don't think I truly believe in it. 
I know this is a typing thread but I don't care. There's something wrong with this idea that's not fleshed out enough and I want to know what.


----------



## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

@hoopla @Greyhart @arkigos @UnicornRainbowLove @laurie17 @TelepathicGoose @ anyone else following this thread who I have forgotten 
@Curiphant doesn't know how to contact people here (I don't think) but she did just respond ^^

Edit: oh, it's at the very bottom of page 5.


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

ENFP. U just offended my Ti. Fight me.








OK, joking but yeah, FP.

I'm gon be bowing out because 1 am.


----------



## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

@alittlebear - Enneagram is fine as long as it is not in any way applied to functions. That was a huge error and must never be done by anyone ever OR ELSE....
@Curiphant - I was actually meaning to answer this in another thread where it was being discussed, kinda, by @alittlebear. The answer, I think, is that it is not their fault but it doesn't matter if it is their fault or not. In my estimation this assignment of blame and guilt is entirely abstract and useless. Two things matter: 

1) Reasonable prevention of future harm.
2) Facilitating rehabilitation where possible, in a sensible way. It seems that proactive efforts at this are usually fruitless - but nevertheless people can flourish if removed from certain triggers or environments. 

After years of thinking about this... I realize that this is all that matters. All that matters is what comes next. The past is dead and gone. It is an abstraction that we think is real but isn't. The only thing it is useful for is in facilitating the above two points. Someone killed 200 people? It doesn't matter. What are they NOW? Who are they NOW? What will they be tomorrow? The only concern I have is who is going to kill 200 people in the future. This dwelling on the past with judgment is wrong. Punishing criminals is inane and absurd. It spits in the face of the future, and the present, and that is all that is real... all that can possibly matter. 

So, what are people accountable for? Nothing. Rather, I reject the question. If that same person were born with a perfect understanding, without mental illness, without trauma, etc... would they still be what they are? If so, why? Is it their nature? Is it the result of bad choices? You give a madman a pill and he is sane... then who committed his sins? Does that person still exist? If not, then who are you punishing? This is particularly meaningful in cases like with James Holmes. What possible worth is there in laying judgment on them. What does it serve? What does it prove? What does it change? 

Nothing. It only distracts us from the profoundly important next steps. If we could look at someone and be unable to see their past... but just have a note in our hand that says "this person may, in X or Y situation, be compelled to commit violence..." We could just say, "Okay, let's help you not get in those situations ever and explore the causes of it for good measure. Would hate for that to happen, ya know?" 

Perfect. The rest is useless and backward. 











If you ask me.


----------



## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

@arkigos I agree with what you say about what really mattering being what someone will do in the future. I'm not really one for punishment in general... It's petty, but to me if someone feels a shred of guilt, knows they were wrong, and never does it again, that's enough for me. Unfortunately it's hard to know who will do what again and what remorse they feel, but in an ideal world that I ran those requirements would be more than enough to satisfy my idea of "justice". 

(Other than that, I don't know how to respond to @Curiphant's question of responsibility at the end. It's not something I've really pondered or a matter I think I fully understand at the time.)


----------



## orbit (Oct 19, 2012)

I agree with you to @arkigos (I'm such a newbie)

What you say makes a lot of sense but if someone wronged someone else, I think there's a want for retribution and making an example of them. Like say Villian 1 kills Protagonist's parents by sending a massive fox after them and then Villain One realizes his errors... That's sending a message that it's okay to kill people as long as you realize it's wrong in the end and say "oops"

The past establishes precedence in society

I agree with responsibility not really mattering and be abstract and a social construct but I think the past does matter too

PS. 
I really liked this part. It rings with my soul if I have one. 

"If so, why? Is it their nature? Is it the result of bad choices? You give a madman a pill and he is sane... then who committed his sins? Does that person still exist? If not, then who are you punishing? This is particularly meaningful in cases like with James Holmes. What possible worth is there in laying judgment on them. What does it serve? What does it prove? What does it change?"


And about this part:

"Nothing. It only distracts us from the profoundly important next steps. If we could look at someone and be unable to see their past... but just have a note in our hand that says "this person may, in X or Y situation, be compelled to commit violence..." We could just say, "Okay, let's help you not get in those situations ever and explore the causes of it for good measure. Would hate for that to happen, ya know?" 

I don't think people would want to be regulated like this as much as I want this to happen


----------



## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

Curiphant said:


> I agree with you to @_arkigos_ (I'm such a newbie)
> 
> What you say makes a lot of sense but if someone wronged someone else, I think there's a want for retribution and making an example of them. Like say Villian 1 kills Protagonist's parents by sending a massive fox after them and then Villain One realizes his errors... That's sending a message that it's okay to kill people as long as you realize it's wrong in the end and say "oops"
> 
> ...


A massive....................... fox?


Yeah, the typical argument I hear back is 'well, if you don't punish people then anyone will think they can get away with it'. I don't think that is true at all. Encouraging a vengeful society is useless and while I agree an intense fear of pain can stop sane people... I don't think we as a society are doing that at all, nor are we willing to do it. Intense palpable fear of pain basically requires a police state and is an inferior path anyway. 
@alittlebear - I don't even care about their remorse other than that it might indicate whether or not they will be able to check themselves with empathy in the future. Their remorse will undo nothing... but, the capacity for remorse / or lack thereof, can be a tool to determine how to prevent harm in the future.. for the betterment of everyone, including that person. Again, ideally I wouldn't even want to know what they did. If it were possible to be fully informed but not laden with that abstract archaic baggage, that would be best. 


Also, Curiphant - I am still entertaining ESFP for you, and always keeping the door open to whatever else. Also keeping in mind that you are young. I don't think a discussion of functions is likely to get us anywhere... which is actually an argument for ESFP. We'll see.


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

Perceived remorse might mean "I wish I didn't get caught". I said I bowed out half an hour ago, I have no will power.


----------



## orbit (Oct 19, 2012)

I've related to ESFP characters before yay. INTP to ESFP what a great change! 

Giant fox because Naruto. The main villain is this dude named Obito who changes sides at the last moment. Everyone forgives him because he's like "yeah I really don't want to enslave the human kind actually lol." The author advocates exactly what you are saying. 

I don't think it's vengeance like that implies it's something personal. 

Anyway, how do you judge what they are going to do in the future? I agree with you in that society should not be run by fear and keeping open to love and redemption and if someone has truly changed than they will punish themselves and do what is necessary to redeem themselves

I assume that if a person remains dangerous, they stay in jail

Hm… Why are drug dealers in jail. Oh right to stop them from cooking stuff. Why are drug users in jail? They've obviously haven't hurt someone 

Is it worth the risk to assume redemption?


----------



## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

@arkigos My want for remorse I think is half self-serving but also half just the innate kindergarten teacher in me. If a child recognizes that what they did was wrong and hurt someone, they are much more likely not to do it again. Logically, though, my selfish desires and child-teaching tendencies aside, I can agree that remorse doesn't matter so long as they don't do it again. (And I'm also, of course on the excusing side that those who are incapable of remorse are not responsible for feeling remorse... If someone can feel remorse for what they did wrong I would honestly prefer that they did, and that they apologized [again my thinking like an elementary school instructor], but of course I recognize that we don't live in an ideal world. It's impossible to know if someone feels true remorse, and punishing them until they do feel remorse is in itself childish.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus (Mar 28, 2015)

@Curiphant,

After reading through this, I would say that some sort of xxFP (likely ESFP) is your type.

I apologize that this is late.

Anyway, I dislike the idea that feelers can only be artists and thinkers can only mathematicians. I'm a "feeling" type, and I plan on going into Science. Not exactly the most "feely" of subjects, is it? Thinking simply means that you utilize rational for decisions and judgements, whereas feeling utilizes value and ethics for such judgements. That is why I sort of dislike the names "thinker" and "feeler", the socionics terms "logic" and "ethics" are much more accurate.

You can go into math and science even if you're not a thinking type. I know an INFP scientist and an INTP musician. Type only indicates how you take in the world, and does not equate to your ability in a certain topic. It's as bad as saying "all INFJs have whimsical voices" or something.


----------



## orbit (Oct 19, 2012)

TelepathicGoose said:


> Well, I could burn your body with fire or with the heat of your soul. Which do you choose?


I don't believe in souls so the former


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

TelepathicGoose said:


> Time is meaning.
> Meaning is time.
> 
> Without time, there is no now, no then, no real, no fake. But time doesn't exist, so what is the meaning of life?
> ...


I take it as more of "I am The Lord of my reality" way.









My wibbily wobbly timey wimey reality... stuff.









Doctor Who is such a Ne fest of a show.


----------



## Deadly Decorum (Feb 23, 2014)

Curiphant said:


> I feel bad because if you got a record, you're doomed to not have a job and that's so sad.


Especially petty things like theft when you're 13.

Action doesn't always predetermine who we are.



Curiphant said:


> What would retribution be like? It'd have to executed by people who care… It's like teaching depressed kids that there are better ways to express your feelings instead of breaking chairs in hallways for example


Yes, this is what I'm talking about. Some people give those with afflictions leeway and excuses because that's who they are and that's all they'll be, without teaching them other strategies or solutions. This may solve the need for retribution, as it may teach people strategies that are alternatives to things like revenge.



Curiphant said:


> What would they teach? I mean they probably know crime is bad, but they just don't care. How do you make people care?


I mean in general. If a child does something wrong, faulty or ineffective, teach them why, and show them other strategies for coping with these problems. I think a lot of people are given little to no options or solutions, or are simply reprimanded without learning why or discovering an alternative for that behavior. I think this progresses into faulty coping mechanisms that can lead to larger things that currently require punishment.


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

I consider soul to be a poetic word for consciousness.


----------



## sockratees (Apr 7, 2015)

> Disprove I'm ENTP?


see, the way it usually works is, it's the task of the _proponents_ of a theory to present concrete scientific evidence of the validity of their pseudoscience


----------



## orbit (Oct 19, 2012)

hoopla said:


> Especially petty things like theft when you're 13.
> 
> Action doesn't always predetermine who we are.
> 
> ...


But they have to care to learn? I mean some people will roll their eyes and have an attitude (they're still redeemable but they think it's hopeless)


----------



## Telepathis Goosus (Mar 28, 2015)

Curiphant said:


> I don't believe in souls so the former


Alright, let me get the giant bonfire and steak.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus (Mar 28, 2015)

Greyhart said:


> I consider soul to be a poetic word for consciousness.


I agree with this.


----------



## orbit (Oct 19, 2012)

sockratees said:


> see, the way it usually works is, it's the task of the _proponents_ of a theory to present concrete scientific evidence of the validity of their pseudoscience


Hm usually. I was thinking statistically where you assume a null hypothesis and then find evidence to reject it and accept the alternative hypothesis that I'm something else

Ho: I am an ENTP
Ha: I am not an ENTP

Ho has been achieved and I no longer consider myself an ENTP. If you want to see a big long post of evidence, the bottom of page five is a great place to look. I answer everyone's questions and probing


----------



## orbit (Oct 19, 2012)

TelepathicGoose said:


> Alright, let me get the giant bonfire and steak.


Ironic. I was born a vegetarian (meaning ever since I was a toddler I've thrown a fit if I have to taste meat)


----------



## Telepathis Goosus (Mar 28, 2015)

Curiphant said:


> Ironic. I was born a vegetarian (meaning ever since I was a toddler I've thrown a fit if I have to taste meat)


Oh, I see. Well, the good news is that meat has a lot of _iron_ in it.


----------



## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

Oh my goodness. How did I miss all these responses. You weren't meant to get _this_ popular, @Curiphant.


----------



## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

TelepathicGoose said:


> Well, I could burn your body with fire or with the heat of your soul. Which do you choose?


I was going to thank this post too, but gosh. This is just violent. Wow, Telly.


----------



## orbit (Oct 19, 2012)

I think I'm more ESFP than ENFP to be honest. I'm not sure if I work on the Ne-Si axis even though I've been constantly referencing the past. I get what alittlebear's symbolism and imagery than I do the tiles and clouds. 

We decided on my Te-Fi axis before my other axis. Maybe I'm Te or Fi dominant? Probably Fi though hm. 

Or am I too young and I just haven't developed my functions and I'm just doing random decision making using random functions all the time which doesn't really make sense now that I'm writing about it?
How do people feel about the functions? 
Can someone describe like an aura because I'm having trouble navigating the descriptions because they seem to blunt and not nuanced enough. I think I'm taking them too literally and I find them contradictory and unbalanced


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

I'm lost in what aura could be. People examples? Gifs? This?









On a side note people are using Jack O'Neill on ENTP memes. What?! Have they seen the show?!!


----------



## orbit (Oct 19, 2012)

Metaphorically?

Te is the monkey that marches around and makes sure the Ti chimps are boxing their ideas properly (which is a dumb example and probably incorrect but I don't know how to do it better =/)

--- 

Anyway, I wrote a thing considering Si/Ne/Se/Ni possibilities. I lean towards the Se/Ni axis I think. 

Si
- I've referenced my past experiences in my answers. However that might be because I don't trust my judgement on what I would actually do… For example, I have no idea if I would use the past outside myself 

- I like going back to books and movies from the past and re-watching them over reading new books and stuff. Or I think I do. I'm not sure why I do this. I think I like to expand on my current knowledge and notice new things because I'm already familiar with the topic. I don't think I do the stereotypical thing though and go "Ah when I was in second grade and reading the Chamber of Secrets, I was terrified of the snake coming to get me." 

It seems like you can use different combination of functions to get the same thing and there's a conflict with unraveling what's actually going on because there's four variables at play. Like there's four pieces of yarn that are different shades of blue and all of the function strings are blue and we're colorblind and can only estimate what blues they are and then we have to determine what blue makes the bulk of the giant mess of yarn. I approve of run-on sentences. 

Ne
- I like brainstorming out loud 
- I have the "vibe" 
- I got typed ENFP by the majority
- Random connections sometimes I don't know. Not all the time. I think that's pretty normal though for the average human. 

Se
- Apparently I am a dominant perceiver. 

- I see things literally I guess maybe

- Everything I know about Se is kind of covered up in piles of stereotypes

- I enjoy sports?

- I'm energetic, I guess?

- I'm impatient idk. 

- {NOTE: this might be a bad example. I need to monitor my thinking more} I feel like I don't think at all because I don't go "lamp post: I see a sign of guidance and hope" or "I see that lamp post could be the hallmark of alien invasion" or "that was the lamp post where that dork ate a hotdog with relish." I probably don't even see the lamppost or consider it. I feel like I'm stereotyping though. 


Ni
- I like it whenever alittlebear explains stuff using her vague bubbles and imagery

- I like colors and color symbolism. (This is Te whoops?) My book shelf is kind of awesomely arranged by color. The bottom shelf is blue, then red, then yellow, then white, then orange because that's how I picture a flame. Fire because you can't really arrange it any other way and I didn't have enough colors to do it rainbow or the Kelsier (too lazy to check that spelling sorry) spectrum. If I had to be pressed for a reason why, I guess my first symbol was Rusty's fiery pelt that he was named after. "Fire Shall Save Our Clan" (But not really)
I've grown out of symbolism but I still use it as a tool to explain my thoughts sometimes like a person will be a light purple with dark blue streaks. I like Harry Potter because the wands and the way Snape says "random" potion ingredients is deliberate. (even though apparently Rowling uses Ne and Si)
Symbolism is impractical unless it's explain a concept… which is kind of the point so never mind. Symbolism is useful

Random other facts

- I need point to my conversations which might be Te I guess. I dislike being approached to engage in conversations unless you have a good reason or I really like you. I don't like "hanging out." 

- I don't read books linearly. I detest movies because I like skipping around the plot and then returning to my exact spot or spots to continue and that's rather difficult with movies. Besides I don't need the visual thing and I'm most interested in character's motivations like any decent person. With movies you just see what they do but I like hearing people's thoughts. I always look up book plots or read the ending first so I can see what's coming and analyze how it's going to happen. 

- I hate comedy. I crack jokes but I don't find them funny and I think the only time something is funny is if the situation, which I relate to personally because I'm there or blala is there, is humorous and someone points it out. Like it's not a direct fire at being funny, it just happens to be funny. Thus, I don't enjoy watching Family Guy. Of course this is not hard and fast. 

- I wish I knew why I cracked jokes. I think it's stop me from being so serious. 

- I hated being on the tennis team because my coach was crappy and corrupt mainly, but also because my fellow teammates didn't work as hard as I expected and that made me angry. I thought if you were on the tennis team you were there for the tennis and you could socialize elsewhere. Of course now I realize it's the opposite, but I'm not joining the team again. 

- I don't like competition like I mentioned. 

- One of my biggest insecurity is that I can't maintain stuff. Like if I'm on a hot air balloon and I'm going higher and higher, I think I'm closer to the ground that way because the flame might go out from oxygen deprivation. I think this is Te?

- My main past time is daydreaming and walking around. 

- I dislike MBTI descriptions because they seem contradictory and they're not supposed to be stereotypes but they kind of are stereotypes and generalizations. I learn through examples and see the nuances through that so this is probably why. I feel like the descriptions describe how they got somewhere and I feel like different functions lead to the same place. =/


----------



## orbit (Oct 19, 2012)

Whoops double post sorry. 

I bet this will all be clearer when I'm older.


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

Si Ne: this statue I bought years ago because it reminded me of Egyptian god and now when I look at it I subconsciously remember this and get "Egyptian deity" impression without consciously concentrating on the memory. Actually, it's an alligator. I can tell by the shape of its... face. Which means it should remind me of Steve Irwin, rest his soul. But it's linked to memory of the time when I was into Egyptian mythology. Thanks to my ENFJ friend who was into it. Still is, actually.

Se is a clear lens. It absorbs what you perceive without fuzzing it up with the stuff I brought up above^. It's sport related theme seem to be because of this - the desire to find limits of self. I think it can manifest itself in anything else too. Nerding, art, music.

Ni is high as hell. Love me some Ni. :th_love:

I don't know how else to describe Ne aside from the posts I've brought up. Yes, I'm noticing patterns on tiles and interpreting them as something else is something I do if there are such tiles present. And it's fun. And I sometimes get stuck staring at them because I am actually not seeing tiles anymore but the... mutated idea that they gave me. This sounds like I love tiles a lot. But it actually can be applied to anything. I love abstract art for the same reasons, for example.

My video apparently hits people in the faces with Ne under 5 seconds?



> - I need point to my conversations which might be Te I guess. I dislike being approached to engage in conversations unless you have a good reason or I really like you. I don't like "hanging out."


I've waited to use this for a long time.


----------



## Telepathis Goosus (Mar 28, 2015)

alittlebear said:


> I was going to thank this post too, but gosh. This is just violent. Wow, Telly.


roud:


----------



## Telepathis Goosus (Mar 28, 2015)

Greyhart said:


> I've waited to use this for a long time.


I've wanted to know this for a long time- do you have a thing for raccoons?


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

TelepathicGoose said:


> I've wanted to know this for a long time- do you have a thing for raccoons?


Only since recently. I realized they are a perfect animal to represent me - loves junk food, kind of an ass with questionable morals, lives in a dumpster and yet loves to wash things. Also mostly night animals.

Before that I considered foxes and deers hence my username. Although that one is a last name of an OC. Needed a posh one, thought about Earl Grey tea because it's posh but Grey isn't posh enough so then I thought Eisenhardt (one of Magneto's) and hardt sounds like heart but Greyheart is too pretentious so I thought "hart" and then it turned out it's a word for a stag so yey.


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

The raccoon on my avatar is special, though. She sat on James Gunn's shoulder. Cats, Beavers & Ducks


----------



## Telepathis Goosus (Mar 28, 2015)

Greyhart said:


> Only since recently. I realized they are a perfect animal to represent me - loves junk food, kid of an ass with questionable morals, lives in a dumpster and yet loves to wash things. Also mostly night animals.
> 
> Before that I considered foxes and deers hence my username. Although that one is a last name of an OC. Needed a posh one, thought about Earl Grey team because it's posh but Grey isn't posh enough so then I thought Eisenhardt (one of Magneto's) and hardt sounds like heart but Greyheart is too pretentious so I thought "hart" and then it turned out it's a word for a stag so yey.


Ah, I see. Hmm, as you can tell, my spirit animal is a Goose, of course.

I like your use of Posh- very British of you.


----------



## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

You can have raccoons, @Greyhart, and you can have geese, @TelepathicGoose. Just as long as I get my elephants. 










Of course I didn't know that @Curiphant would steal my animal even with her username, but... I stole her Tumblr Header Idea, so we're even.


----------



## orbit (Oct 19, 2012)

I'm a donkey. I wanted to be Curiass but I thought that was too vulgar. 

I have a question? Do Se have to strictly sensual? Like my dad loves being outside in nature and staring at machinery and hiking and visiting the Grand Canyon and biking and I'm like it's pleasant but I don't love it. I don't see what's so interesting about that mill. Like he likes looking at historical monuments and I like reading the signs beside them.

And yeah, I'm not a very fun person. I try to be sometimes but I don't think people fall for it


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

<--- Still not an expert on SPs. ISFP or ISTP can be considered if you think you aren't Pe dominant.


----------



## orbit (Oct 19, 2012)

Greyhart said:


> <--- Still not an expert on SPs. ISFP or ISTP can be considered if you think you aren't Pe dominant.


I think I'm Pe dominant but I just want to firm it up. I mean I can be totally wrong so I want to cover my bases 
ISFP is like Harry Potter?


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

Curiphant said:


> I think I'm Pe dominant but I just want to firm it up. I mean I can be totally wrong so I want to cover my bases
> ISFP is like Harry Potter?


Harry, yes, also Lana del Rey, Lorde, Arya Stark, that blonde from Powers. Probably Scarlet Witch.


----------



## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

ISTP like Indiana Jones, Han Solo, Mulan, Go Go Tomago. 

And with this actually going to sleep 2.30 am and I WILL go to bed earlier I must.


----------



## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

Greyhart said:


> <--- Still not an expert on SPs. ISFP or ISTP can be considered if you think you aren't Pe dominant.


She's definitely a Pe dominant (I think).


----------



## Deadly Decorum (Feb 23, 2014)

Curiphant said:


> I think I'm more ESFP than ENFP to be honest. I'm not sure if I work on the Ne-Si axis even though I've been constantly referencing the past. I get what alittlebear's symbolism and imagery than I do the tiles and clouds.
> 
> We decided on my Te-Fi axis before my other axis. Maybe I'm Te or Fi dominant? Probably Fi though hm.
> 
> ...


You are really smart, and are picking up on this quick. Thought you should know.

Past =/= Si. Well, in a way it does, but not in the way people think. Si is anti reality, in that it removes the immediate sensory stimulus to replace it with a subjective one. This makes Si perfectionistic, exacting and absolute on a formula of how things should be. Correlation *does* equal causation for Si.

Memory and nostalgia is not Si. Those traits are universal. Your examples to me aren't "this is how things are" like Si... but it comes across as like you need real world examples to understand things, and use these examples to explain yourself or clarify your points, and they're sort of arbitrary and not exacting... like whatever works or gets the point across. This is typical of Se imo. I liked how you were totes on board when @arkigos set up an Ne test... but you used real world examples to drive the points home. Perf example.

I don't think you're Fi dominate because Te is pretty strong, but I think the Se is winning. You're right though... you may change as you grow. Personally I think functions are like set in stone at a young age, but the ordering can change. Could be wrong though.

I could attempt to explain auras, and would probably do a passable job, but @alittlebear would probably explain it at a deeper level. P sure that's more of an Ni thing.

Also nah, Se types don't have to dig camping and stuff. My sister is an ISFP and she hates that shit (I thought she was an INFP due to that, but I was wrong). Overall Se is about the novelty of engagement and dynamics and aesthetics, and in a way, aim (though they can also be lazy af). Not all Se types are party-goers either. That's all stereotype.


----------



## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

hoopla= said:


> I could attempt to explain auras, and would probably do a passable job, but @alittlebear would probably explain it at a deeper level. P sure that's more of an Ni thing.
> 
> Also nah, Se types don't have to dig camping and stuff. My sister is an ISFP and she hates that shit (I thought she was an INFP due to that, but I was wrong). Overall Se is about the novelty of engagement and dynamics and aesthetics, and in a way, aim (though they can also be lazy af). Not all Se types are party-goers either. That's all stereotype.


It's over, Hoopla. Ni-aura explanations are on suspension from me. 

(That aside - yes, Curiphant is brilliant =) )


----------



## orbit (Oct 19, 2012)

hoopla said:


> You are really smart, and are picking up on this quick. Thought you should know.
> 
> Past =/= Si. Well, in a way it does, but not in the way people think. Si is anti reality, in that it removes the immediate sensory stimulus to replace it with a subjective one. This makes Si perfectionistic, exacting and absolute on a formula of how things should be. Correlation *does* equal causation for Si.
> 
> ...


First of all thank you so much. This made me really happy and it was very clarifying. 

I think I see what Si means now. The way I used my past is different than an Si user because like you said, it was more like using the example as a tool rather than the past as a tool to make something better for someone? 

I'm going to have a fun time looking up Se-dom, which I think does make sense for me because I seem to soak things up and then mildly judge them and dump things when I think I get it, with all of the stereotypes. And this will probably make me consider what I'm doing with my life and how I can please my Se more. Se seems very neutral and I like that. Thank you again for the clarification on the necessity of being all types of aesthetics (ex. nature and machinery but correct me if I'm misinterpreting) 

I'm sixteen and a half (sorry my half birthday is coming up soon when school is finished which is stunning me) so I think I'm set function wise. @alittlebear mentioned I probably made a switch in my teenage years? But seeing how we have no record of that person, that's impossible to know. 

We'll see what happens. And then I'll have to go through this self analysis again! Yay

Thanks again!


----------

