# Crisis with racial identity



## InspectorDoohickey (Nov 12, 2012)

stultum said:


> It is wrong that you are made to suffer because of your race.
> 
> This seems to be the thought 'if everyone thinks of themselves, everyone has been thought of'
> 
> But do you really think it helps to fight fire with fire? I'm not saying that you are doing anything wrong, but is it helpful to favour your own group over another to fight a system that has other people doing the same, albeit more successfully?


Ah, I see where your understanding of our circumstances, perspectives, and expectations are broken. It's not about favoring my race over another, it's about living in a system that seeks to break every person of color, and realizing my part in destroying that system. As a Black man, I am most qualified to comment and act on my experience as a Black man. I can't speak, or act on behalf of Native Americans, or Hispanics, or Asians. Because I haven't walked a step in their shoes, I don't have the experience or the resources necessary to fight their fight on the level of someone who does. Now don't get me wrong, I march beside them as they have for me. I give as much as I can give, but I am just an ally. It's impossible for me to be more than that, and it would a hindrance to their progress if I tried.

Fighting for equality in one sphere doesn’t mean that we’ve forgotten about the others. So don't try and write this off as "Everyone thinking of themselves". It's a group project, and while we're each accountable for our own part, that doesn't mean we don't have a responsibility to help the other members of our group. And if you were out in these street, marching the miles we march, then you'd know that no one thinks otherwise.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

purplepotamus said:


> Has anyone else dealt with, or is anyone currently dealing with, issues of racial identity?


Nope, never. Although growing up around a pretty diverse group, I think the concept of calling someone a "sellout" is just way to force people to stick with whatever identity the group has in common. Race often being a common and fairly powerful theme. I've seen it happen multiple times, someone becomes too chummy with people who are outside of their perceived group and they're branded a sellout and socially shunned until they comply.

If that hasn't happened to you then consider yourself lucky because I've seen people lose all of their friends for "going against their race".

Otherwise, forget about race whenever possible and just spend time with people you get along with the best. Because at the end of the day, race identity is just how racists force non-racists to conform to their views and you wouldn't want to just be someone's tool.

Also, being realistic, there's very little you can do to fight any existing systemic racism/discrimination. Twisting your own views to right what you perceive to be wrong will only hurt you and solve nothing. The only way to rectify systemic problems is to reform whatever system that's being discriminatory to begin with. Fat chance of that ever happening though unless the problem becomes too large to ignore; so I wouldn't dedicate too much sorrow to something you have no power to change. Just keep doing what you think is the right way to behave and act because that's all you can really do.


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## InspectorDoohickey (Nov 12, 2012)

MNiS said:


> Nope, never. Although growing up around a pretty diverse group, I think the concept of calling someone a "sellout" is just way to force people to stick with whatever identity the group has in common. Race often being a common and fairly powerful theme. I've seen it happen multiple times, someone becomes too chummy with people who are outside of their perceived group and they're branded a sellout and socially shunned until they comply.
> 
> If that hasn't happened to you then consider yourself lucky because I've seen people lose all of their friends for "going against their race".
> 
> ...


Are you White?


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Amaru said:


> Are you White?


No, I'm not.


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## InspectorDoohickey (Nov 12, 2012)

MNiS said:


> No, I'm not.


Would have made your opinions a lot less dangerous


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Amaru said:


> Would have made your opinions a lot less dangerous


If you think my opinions are dangerous then there is something seriously wrong with your views.

At any rate, my views are still the same.


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

No if I did my only choice would be to identify with being a white supremacist and that's not very acceptable where I live.


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## Anihsir (Sep 18, 2014)

No, not really, but while I don't live in America, I do live in a country where there is blatant racial politics, and racism under many interactions. Foreigners who come here don't often see it, because as a whole the country and citizens hides the racism pretty well (unless you happen to look or are one of the races within our country OR you have lived here long enough to see past all the farce we all put on. Even then, expatriate packages are a pretty good deal for most foreigners, assuming that they aren't illegal immigrants).

I won't go into the circumstances and the racial issues surrounding my country as the scenario is a bit different from America, but I do agree with the majority of opinions where you should really be yourself. I think your "happy medium" scenario is really the best situation you can have, because there is little you can change about the majority of "race views", especially with things heightened up as it is. Here, whenever I have started criticising both sides of how they dealt with each other (while the favoured are blind to their benefits, the "non-favoured" hadn't exactly acted very professionally in terms of making their voices heard), my opinions has given me much hate and dislike - from the favoured race who believe I'm hating on them for benefits that they so "rightly" deserve, and from the non-favoured who think that I'm "blind" to their suffering from discrimination. For the record, I am part of the "non-favoured" race for those who wish to know. Because of this, I've simply begun to not say anything really, for the sake of keeping peace and not to cause problems for myself. 

Related in a way, I also agree with the posters who talk about conforming to race views based on your race IS truly a way to keep races separated and continuously hating on each other, because that is the case here as well. While I'm not saying that you cannot have friends with your own race (It is a given, after all, people of certain races share similar things and people gravitate to people with similar things), race views in certain countries can be so strong that it does undermine our relationships with other races. I can feel the effects of it on me and I can see the effects of it on other people. Here, the races will look as if they are getting along at first glance, but in reality many are simply only putting up with each other because we have do, and we know the other race will not agree to what we say about them (favoured or non-favoured). This actually just makes things worse, because it isolates races from each other, and it continues to fester hate and discrimination - but if no one starts making the first step by actually _accepting_ the flaws in both the system and themselves _no matter if favoured or non-favoured_, then the races will continue to be isolated forever. It's only when there is a common enemy that the races do eventually band together - but I fear that it is only because we have a common "enemy" and that we are still not realising the issues we STILL have with each other. 

I also agree with the poster about the fact that there is very little you can do against a system unless it has caused so much problems that it forces a change. Here, the problems with the system has begun to reach its peak, plus a multitude of other problems related to it, so now people are starting to truly fight against the system for real. Even then, despite many of us knowing the problems with the system for MANY YEARS now, there was never truly a strong group that really fought against it, not until now. Most people have instead decided to simply migrant to another country, as it is less of hassle than dealing with our stubborn government and it's problematic policy.

I guess if I were in your situation, I would simply continue the happy medium that you have gotten as it is; in my experience, fighting and propagating your views have only expelled more energy than necessary, and most people will beat you down for not having the "majority" opinion. If you do wish to fight - and I don't blame you so because systems of racism are very damaging to people - perhaps the best way is to really choose and pick your fights; because unless you really have the mental capacity and energy to deal with it, fighting hard all the way would be really difficult.


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## DasPhillipBrau (Apr 2, 2010)

purplepotamus said:


> WARNING: This is a highly-sensitive topic for me, and I will do my best to be open-minded to any responses, but am probably too emotionally fragile to handle any personal attacks.
> 
> Has anyone else dealt with, or is anyone currently dealing with, issues of racial identity? I'm not bi-racial, and for that reason I'm expected to have an obvious loyalty to my race. It's not that I don't, but I feel that I want to focus on finding commonalities among people I encounter and try to live a life that exhibits tolerance of all people. I've struggled throughout my life with feeling like a "sellout" among people of my race, and it's not that I am ignorant to racism still existing in the US. I guess I'm too much of an idealist and, quite frankly, ostrich to properly handle the complexities of the topic.
> 
> This has just been really heavy on my heart and mind. Just curious what others think ...


You do not owe any loyalty to your race or country, the decision is yours. If you're black and you want to marry a japanese girl and have a family with her, you can do it, you dont have to feel bad about "betraying" your race. Whatever action you feel makes you a sellout, it doesn't, you didnt chose your race or culture, those 2 are just human concepts, if you wish to abandon the one you were born in and move to another one which fits your expectations better, you're free to do so, and I'd actually encourage it. These things are just useful for keeping people in chains.


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## kismetie (Oct 17, 2013)

I'm sorry to hear that you are having this crisis ): truly I am. 

Honestly, I think it is a process everyone must go through regardless of their "racial background" or ethnicity. You being a first generation in your family, I don't have much to offer as far as knowing what it is like, but all I can do is share a little of my story in hopes to prove some sense of, "you're not alone" in feeling like maybe you don't identify enough or belong to your on ethnic background. 

I can understand the reluctance in not wanting to state your ethnic background, but it might help? There may be a person on the site who is also of the same background or at least racial background who can better identify with what you are feeling. 

I myself have never really outright stated my own ethnicity on this site or really hinted at it because rather we like it or not, opinions do tend to change for some people when they find out your ethnic background (this can be either good or bad). 

I think all over the world, the oppressed are trying their very hardest to rise and break from the chains of their oppressors. While this has been happening for decades from some and years for others, I think America is finally kind of in a way forcibly having their eyes open to the very, very large pink elephant dancing in the center of the room. Tensions are rising again because people are being forced to acknowledge things that make them uncomfortable to admit about themselves, things they can no longer try and sweep under the rug and hide.

This is a very "touchy" topic indeed and I've seen a lot of wordplay going around on some of the comments I did read and go through. 

There's a lot of things to be considered here. 

Growing up in a country that is as ethnically diverse as the United States is extremely difficult.
-You have first generation people (like yourself) who directly have to deal with issues of acculturation; there's always this conflict because there are those who choose to assimilate into the new culture (sometimes by choice and other times not so much), there are those who choose to separate themselves as much as possible from the new culture and maintain their own cultural independence, there are those who integrate and maintain a high sense of culture with both their own culture and their new culture as well, and then there are those who decide to reject both their own culture and the new and march to the beat of their own drum.

This can be especially stressful if you are a person who say decided to assimilate into the new culture (which in a sense for most first generations, if they didn't come here themselves, is the only culture they really know) or if you decided to integrate, because no matter what you do there is always going to be someone dissatisfied. You always going to be too "American" or too "ethnic." It often times feels like youre fighting a losing battle and no one can be pleased. There is no right answer. You have to start doing things for yourself and not to please others. The only thing that can happen is they disagree with you and decide to cut themselves off from you or continue to harass you because of your own opinions (in which cause, you should cut them out!) or they will disagree with you but respect your opinion and not let it get in the way of the relationship.


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## kismetie (Oct 17, 2013)

Sorry, I started out by saying I was going to share my own experience and then completely derailed (I tend to do that a lot, sorry). 

Dang it! There just so much I wanna say and share here! But I have to get ready for my dreaded job, bleh. So it'll have to wait I'm afraid ):


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## FourLeafCloafer (Aug 5, 2014)

Whatever, deleted post.


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## Lucky Luciano (Nov 28, 2013)

Just tell us what the fuck are u it´d make this easier. I live in multicultural city and I know several first generation immigrants who are fully integrated to this society. Furthermore I have lived in Turkey where I was warmly accepted by everyone although we had nothing in common culturally. But well US is US, good luck


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## InspectorDoohickey (Nov 12, 2012)

stultum said:


> Look, I know that I am neither black nor an American, but I got from your posts that you think that a black person should favour blacks above the others to fight racism, I cite,
> 
> _but *If you're black I suggest you prioritize Black opinions. If you're Asian I suggest you prioritize Asian opinions. And so on, and so forth. *Because the innumerable factors that have allowed your perspective to evolve in such a way where you're unable to process your own circumstances, and the circumstances of your people can only be counteracted through the efforts and words of kin. *In other words reject white opinions at all cost.* Consider the thoughts of your fellow minorities. And embrace the perspectives of those who share your oppression, pain for pain, word for word._
> 
> ...


*sigh*We trust Doctors with our lives, because -- at least here in the states -- they've spent at minimum a decade in school learning, and practicing medicine. When your friend lifts up his shirt to share that strange rash he's been scratching at for months, you say, "Dude you should see a Doctor". Because I'm unqualified and uncomfortable with diagnosing that for you. Well I've spent 2 decades as a black man in this school we call life. I am qualified to speak and act on the Black experience, on oppression, and on the systematic slaying of my people. Because I know it better than a doctor knows medicine, so I see no reason why my opinion on these subjects shouldn't be treated with just as much reverence. 

But I don't think you're arguing against that, I think you have a problem with my suggestion to "reject all white opinions". And really, it's my fault, I really should've chosen my words with better care. I meant to say,

"Reject the opinions of your *oppressors*, OP. Of *murderers*, and *thieves. *Reject the opinions of those who have valued your life at *0*. Who refuse us justice, and freedom. Reject the opinions of those who *profit *off of our suffering, OP. Reject the opinions of bondage"

Stultum, I appreciate the amount of care and consideration that went into your reply, I truly do, thank you for that.


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## purplepotamus (Nov 7, 2014)

I want to start by thanking everyone for their input. I may agree or disagree with parts or all of what people are saying, but I'm grateful for being able to learn from your insights in a civilized forum.

That being said, one thing that has been said by various people throughout this thread is that they don't see race. I'm posting a few links on definitions that I think relate to this topic (I can't post links because of my low post count, very annoying).

- Racism: The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races (Oxford Dictionaries)
- Power: (1) the ability or right to control people or things; (2) political control of a country or area; (3) a person or organization that has a lot of control and influence over other people or organizations (Merriam-Webster)
- Oppression: (1) the act of subjugating by cruelty, force, etc or the state of being subjugated in this way; (2) the condition of being afflicted or tormented; (3) the condition of having something lying heavily on one's mind, imagination, etc (The Free Dictionary)
- Institutional Racism: The collective failure of an organisation to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their colour, culture or ethnic origin. It can be seen or detected in processes, attitudes and behaviour which amount to discrimination through unwitting prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness and racial stereotyping (Health Service Journal, quoting Sir William Macpherson)

I've tended to think this was a good way to think as well, to see first the _person _standing before you and treating the _person _based on his or her character. I've tended to do this over the years, because, again, I've been treated shitty by people both within and outside of my race (and that means something to my personal development, so I don't want that minimized). But then I've heard people say that such a statement can be (or is) dismissive to non-"majority" races because who they have developed into is, in part, due to the fact that the average non-"majority" person have been shaped (partially, but a significant input nonetheless) as a result of the experiences related to their race. 

I readily admit to not being the most PC person, and many subliminal, covert concepts--particularly in coded language--will fly over my head mainly because I'm defaulting to assuming the best of that person's intentions. I tend to be an ostrich with many things, but over time and through some really painful experiences, I have been questioning my actions related to race. I, too, have felt and continue to feel powerless to do anything about institutionalized racism. That's likely because I tend to have a "go it alone" attitude because I am not always confident that the approach I've chosen in addressing an issue is correct (I guess my tendency to see things in black and white (no pun intended) contributes to this feeling). 

Anyway, I feel like I'm going on a tangent. Can anyone of any race be a racist? If we go by the definition above, sure. But I think the meaning of the word racism has evolved with time and believe that people of non-"majority" races ascribe it more to institutionalized racism (racism+power). I don't believe myself to be racist (probably have some prejudices within me, and even those start to fade over time) in the purest form of the definition, but in the more modern form, I see what non"majority" races say that they cannot be racists.

Well, The Man calls, so more later, cuz I do address how people in this thread believe in treating others of any race, which is how I tend to lean at this point.


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## Faiora (May 23, 2010)

purplepotamus said:


> I've tended to think this was a good way to think as well, to see first the _person _standing before you and treating the _person _based on his or her character. I've tended to do this over the years, because, again, I've been treated shitty by people both within and outside of my race (and that means something to my personal development, so I don't want that minimized). But then I've heard people say that such a statement can be (or is) dismissive to non-"majority" races because who they have developed into is, in part, due to the fact that the average non-"majority" person have been shaped (partially, but a significant input nonetheless) as a result of the experiences related to their race.


I'm not sure the "shaping" from experiences related to your race is entirely relevant when it comes to how people should treat you in person. Because the thing is, if people of your own race expect you to act a certain way because you are of their race, they're being just as racist as a person of another race who wants you to act like your own race. The expectation is being placed on you because of the colour of your skin, and for no other reason. 

There's a fuzzy line, though, if your actions are expected because of familial influence—i.e. family or friends of your family, because those are people who've been involved in your upbringing. They're the people who say "we help with the dishes after dinner" and "we go to church on Sundays" and "you're expected to respect your mother and father" and whatever else. In a lot of cases, those things aren't race-specific, but sometimes there are things that are only relevant within one cultural group. I do think it's fair to have that kind of expectation placed on you, at least while you choose to remain within that group, because it's about respect for other people and the way they choose to live.


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## Faiora (May 23, 2010)

I wanted to add another post here because of some earlier posts I've seen in this thread and found disturbing:

I think it's really unfortunate that race is a topic no-one is "allowed" to touch from the outside. 

As a writer, I feel this puts me in an awkward position. Complaints arise from the black community, or the Korean community, or whatever community about their race not being included in popular literature, and then if their race is included, the work is either racist because it addresses cultural issues and the author isn't the right colour (I'll get to experience relating to race down at the bottom), or it's empty because it doesn't address cultural issues. 

My current work mostly reflects the second concern. The royal family in my story - set in a fantasy kingdom - is black, and one of the main characters is the princess. She's resourceful, intelligent, and assertive, and I just love her to bits (which I hope is evident in my writing). But, she isn't black in the culturally black American sense. She can't be—after all, she's in a fantasy kingdom and has never been to the US. 

But despite that my character is in a fantasy kingdom, I apparently need to be more aware of stereotypes that people apply to black people. My other main character (a boy from Oregon who is not physically described in the story) does swimming races, and there is a main point in the story where he's teaching the princess to swim faster/more efficiently (she's self-taught), and my SO pointed out there's apparently a stereotype about black people not being able to swim. How on earth am I supposed to keep track of these things? He figures it's fine because I'm not saying she can't swim, just that she needs to improve. But I'm willing to bet some people will be offended. That's just the way the world works. 

I didn't add a black main character to my story because I wanted to address cultural issues, or because I wanted a token black character, or because I want to prove anything. I added her in because I like her combination of traits, and anyway blonde princesses are boring and overused. 

*Anyway here's where I'm going with this: *

In any group of people, there's a tendency to "keep to your own" which is evident just looking at movies and books that primarily consist of white main characters, sometimes to the extreme where the "enemy" in the story resembles another race or culture. 

But we're surrounded by people every day who don't look like us, and some of us want to be part of that world. 

There's a black woman I see on the bus some mornings. She's tall and thin and always looks sharp in her pantsuit. There aren't a lot of black people where I live, and my natural reaction is that I want to know how she's like me, and how she isn't, and what life is like for her. Is she just like me? Probably I'd be disappointed and find out she is. 

Half the people I see every day are from various Asian countries, and it's abundantly clear to me that despite differing cultural values, there are Chinese people with all the same flaws I have, and all of my strengths as well. That doesn't mean there aren't any differences—culturally there certainly are, and I'm fascinated by Chinese superstition and traditions. But on an individual level, Chinese people are just as boring as I am. 

I think it's harmful to say we can't understand other people because of differing cultural and historical experiences. Yes, black people in the US have a strong cultural history, and a specific cultural "image" even today. They've gone through some terrible things in the past, and terrible things still happen to black people today. But, can black people who've never been slaves really claim that experience? What about white people of Irish descent, who had family members who were enslaved? What about those with Native American family?

This inherited experience is something that influences your upbringing and ties to your culture, and certainly affects your perceptions and beliefs, but what it doesn't do is change your fundamental humanity. 

*Despite differing cultural values, experiences, and upbringing, we are all people, and we all are fundamentally the same. *

It might be difficult to put myself in a black person's shoes and imagine how it would feel to be turned away from a party because of my skin colour (something that's happened to my husband), or to have someone make assumptions about my intelligence or my trustworthiness for the same reason. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't try, and be given the opportunity to empathize.


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## Glenda Gnome Starr (May 12, 2011)

I know how it feels to have people make assumptions about my intelligence, but the cause of the negative assumptions was an undiagnosed learning disability, not race.
I actually believe that race doesn't exist as a biological reality. It is a social construct and is, therefore, artificial. Unfortunately, racism is still very real and very destructive. I hear racist attitudes from people far more often than is necessary (since racism is never necessary, any utterance of racist attitudes is more often than necessary). Usually, the racist attitudes that I hear start with the expression of "those people." "Those people" do rotten things and behave in a way that offends acceptable social mores (and the speaker is, of course, the one who gets to decide what the "acceptable social mores" would be). "Those people" sometimes are also "illegal aliens," which makes them someone less than real "people." 
When I hear these comments, I challenge myself and my own attitudes. Do I think that I am better than "those people"? Do I think that "those people" are "those people"? How can I go about changing this bad attitude? I try hard to work on my attitude and to avoid being a prejudiced person because I wouldn't want people to treat me in a prejudiced sort of way. 
Unfortunately, I don't really have a lot more to add to this that would be useful in any way.
But I am reading a book, which addresses both the issues of race and of culture. It is "Americanah," by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. The author was born in Nigeria and she now lives part of the year in the United States and part of the year in Nigeria. Here is her website: About Chimamanda | Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie


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## AuroraLight (Dec 1, 2014)

Well lets look at it this way, did you get to choose your race? The answer is no. Does your race truly force you into the person you are? Again the answer is no. You choose the person you want to be. Race really shouldn't affect you and honestly you shouldn't pay much attention to it. Regardless your race you are still human and like every other human you just want to be happy. Live your life how you want and pay no attention to those who involve themselves too much with race, honestly its pointless to create limitations just because of a persons race.
Its your life and you get to choose how you want to live it and the person you want to be.


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## InspectorDoohickey (Nov 12, 2012)

Faiora said:


> I wanted to add another post here because of some earlier posts I've seen in this thread and found disturbing:
> 
> *I think it's really unfortunate that race is a topic no-one is "allowed" to touch from the outside.* [SUP][1][/SUP]
> 
> ...



[SUP][1][/SUP] I don’t understand why you couldn’t just write what you meant. You find it unfortunate that White opinions hold no value in a conversation about the oppression, murder, and daily struggles of a given racial group.

[2] Who are you to judge the nature or the legitimacy of our complaints? The answer is nobody, you're not at all equipped to. The media doesn’t distort, demonize, or disrespect your culture every second of every day. so it's impossible for you to know what it feels like.

[3] Well it’s the truth you can’t understand. You can sympathize and empathize all you want, but you’ll never *understand*. The same way you can’t understand what it feels like to lose a child, unless you’ve lost one. Understanding the Black experience, in its entirety, is impossible for a white person.

[4] This question seems more like an attempt to dismiss my experiences than anything. I didn’t mention slavery once in this entire thread, I didn’t allude to it, or otherwise hint at it. Every aspect of the Black experience I’ve touched on are realities we deal with in the 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century.

[SUP][5] [/SUP]This has been the basis of every movement from every marginalized group ever, you’re not telling *us *anything new. Pass the word on to your policemen, your senators, your congressmen, and judges. Because they don’t exactly believe the same.


It is irresponsible of you all advise the OP, or any person of color to ignore their race. It irresponsible of you all to tell the OP that it's okay to survive without your basic human rights.


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## purplepotamus (Nov 7, 2014)

Thank you, all. After thinking about everyone's comments, the one that sticks in my mind the most is the following:



Amaru said:


> ...You can ignore the problems of those who are targeted by the system, just like you, and you'll still be Black. Thing is you'll be [of the non-"majority"], and a coward.[/COLOR]


I think I have to accept that, despite whatever painful experiences I've had with those outside of and (especially) within my race, feeling misunderstood, trying to prove my worth, etc., I got wrapped up in the fear of not being enough and the anger of not feeling valued. And it showed in everything I did. Maybe I should have viewed the bigger picture--working together to fight racial injustice in areas where I could contribute--and I thought that by getting my shit together I could demonstrate my value. But being on a quest to prove my individual value only proved that I was more focused on myself and not injustices faced by others (despite what I'd tell myself). My lack of trust in other people's intentions tended to lead me toward inaction rather than do something that would leave me feeling used. Yet, I let myself be used by those in positions of power rather than fight with those similar to me. I don't know if it's self-hate (i.e., hating my identified race) or just such deep mistrust based on past experiences that I let it cloud the bigger picture of working with other to fight for a greater cause. This is what leaves me with the most shame because I don't like to see others be hurt. But knowing that I was an unwitting participant is really painful for to acknowledge.


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## Angelic Gardevoir (Oct 7, 2010)

*slaps an ’I’m White’ disclaimer sticker on post*

I think the key here is balance. You don’t have to alienate anyone because of your race. You can be friends with anyone you want, and that doesn’t make you a sellout at all. However, your race is undeniably a part of who you are. If you hear someone (especially a white person) say or do something you or a friend that shares your race feel is prejudiced or misinformed, speak up. If said person is your friend also, they will listen to you if they are a true friend. (I’m kind of a hypocrite here myself since I lack the confidence to speak up about things and I don’t like conflict or angering people/hurting their feelings...or getting hurt myself. It’s something I need to work on.)

You should certainly focus on the commonalities we all share as human beings. There is absolutely _nothing_ wrong with that. But our differences are also what makes each person and culture special, and they should be celebrated. Acceptance of differences cannot happen, however, just by sweeping everything under the rug. That’s bascially the sort of ’tolerance’ I and many other white people were taught. Promoting peace and love is all well and good, but emphasizing it too much comes off as ignoring the truth and pretending everything is okay when it’s not. White America is more or less a bunch of Stepford Smilers when it comes to racial issues.

So...hope that helps?


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## Devrim (Jan 26, 2013)

Race is a concept that is human made,
And has only really been used to divide society into small little boxes,
And has otherwise proven to be redundant.

Define yourself by your own morals and actions,
Free of the pressures of external society


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## TurtleQueen (Nov 8, 2014)

I'm white, if that is relevant to this conversation.

I did understand where @Faiora was coming from when she brought up that story she wrote because I also like to write (more poems than stories). I wouldn't want to discriminate against anybody in my work, but it could be difficult to make sure I'm not accidentally including some stereotypical idea. It's still the responsibility of writers to do the best that they can to avoid including stereotypes in their work. I have researched the specific situation of black people and swimming and will discuss it further below. I would hope that a reader would judge that kind of situation in part by how it was handled and that a reader would keep the context of the rest of the story in mind. I certainly don't think that a reader doesn't have the right to reject or criticize a story that contained a harmful stereotype. If the author could invent some logical reason for the black character to not know how to swim such as living in a desert climate with little access to water and/or give examples of black people who know how to swim in the same story, it could also make a particular plot point seem less racist.

The idea that black people don't know how to swim has been an idea for a very long time. It is a stereotype that is probably less present in current media than the media of the past. The T.V. show _Scandal_, for instance, has shown the main character (a black woman) swimming as part of various segments on the show that include her exercise routine. Black people were discouraged historically from swimming during slavery and during times of segregation that disallowed them from using public swimming pools and public beaches. Obviously, people who learned how to swim with no obstacles as children would be more likely to try to teach their children how to swim. Statistically, fewer black people today know how to swim than white people do. In a fantasy setting that doesn't need to reflect real-world racism, it wouldn't make sense to portray a black person as not knowing how to swim more than any other character. Also, the portrayal is problematic since black people are sometimes portrayed as _incapable_ of learning how to swim due to their race (and some pseudoscientific theories exist to make this kind of claim). 

I'm going to share some interesting links that I found on the issue. I would advise a writer to avoid talking about the hair issue if they portray a black person who doesn't know how to swim since that concern seem stereotypical: 

A history behind black people not swimming: Jarvis DeBerry | NOLA.com
BBC News - Why don't black Americans swim?
How African Americans beat one of the most racist institutions: The swimmingÂ*pool | Grist
Most Blacks Don't Swim. They Need to Learn | Psychology Today


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## TurtleQueen (Nov 8, 2014)

@purplepotamus

Based on what you have said in this thread, it sounds like someone said or did something racist at your workplace against a person of your race and you didn't know how to handle that situation in the best way. I think it's important for you to realistically consider the power that you had in that situation. If you were lower on the corporate totem poll, it's harder to have someone take your concerns seriously. It's also difficult to react well in the moment to things you don't expect. I think that you should think over the situation with a view towards considering what you could do if the same thing happened again. For example, you could speak to H.R. if you would be putting yourself at great risk by speaking to the person who made the racist remark (because it victimizes your race or because the person who made the remark is your direct supervisor).

I can't speak too much about the identity issue as a white person, but I do think that people have the right to have friends who aren't the same race as them or to have personal interests that are "unusual" for their race. I consider it racist to tell someone that he or she is "acting white" just because the person doesn't fit into a racial stereotype. If it's possible that your friends reflect some kind of subconscious shame about your race or some kind of subconscious attempt to distance yourself from people of your race, it might be an issue. I don't think it's fair for people to assume a negative things about you if they only know that you happen to have a lot of white friends or have "white" interests.


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## Faiora (May 23, 2010)

At this point I'm going off thread-topic, but I don't really know where to put this...



TurtleQueen said:


> I also like to write (more poems than stories). I wouldn't want to discriminate against anybody in my work, but it could be difficult to make sure I'm not accidentally including some stereotypical idea. It's still the responsibility of writers to do the best that they can to avoid including stereotypes in their work. I have researched the specific situation of black people and swimming and will discuss it further below. I would hope that a reader would judge that kind of situation in part by how it was handled and that a reader would keep the context of the rest of the story in mind. I certainly don't think that a reader doesn't have the right to reject or criticize a story that contained a harmful stereotype. If the author could invent some logical reason for the black character to not know how to swim such as living in a desert climate with little access to water and/or give examples of black people who know how to swim in the same story, it could also make a particular plot point seem less racist.


I completely agree, and I think I said somewhere earlier that I think learning the stereotypes would make my writing better, and help me avoid pitfalls. 

I guess to be honest with myself, the reason I'd want to avoid learning stereotypes is because I'd rather not have to worry I'm going to come across as racist if I say something. And not knowing the stereotype means I can't possibly be being racist, because I'm not even associating whatever it is with a particular group of people. So it's a selfish thing in a way. 

For example, I could more comfortably talk about fried chicken in a group of black people if I didn't know there was a stereotype about black people liking fried chicken. On one hand my thought is "who on earth doesn't like fried chicken, why can't I talk about fried chicken all I want?" and on the other hand it seems like a topic to avoid completely, because I don't know who'll be sensitive about it and who won't. If I didn't know the stereotype I'd talk about fried chicken freely, without any concerns, and probably wouldn't press any buttons. But even if I did press buttons, at least I'd personally know I wasn't being racist if someone started ranting at me about it. If I was ranted at and knew the stereotype, I'd have a whole lot of self-analysis to do, to try and figure out what my real intentions were in saying whatever it is I said. I hate having to do that, but I feel like I owe it to people. >.<

I don't want to offend people. I don't think it's ever my _intention_ to offend people. So it's difficult for me to accept that I'm stepping on someone's toes by saying something I honestly meant well. 

Anyway. 

My character DOES swim, she just doesn't swim as efficiently as the other (presumably white) main character because he's on a swim team. It's sort of an integral part of my story in some places, so I don't know how to fix it. Learning to swim better/faster doesn't "save" the princess immediately, or from any prior danger, but it does help her save herself much later in the story. 

I like your suggestion about having other black characters that swim well. I might be able to integrate that in a historical sense into my story, although currently there are actually no other characters who swim in the story besides those two (at least not with a focus on them). There are two (presumably white) pirates who can't swim at all. So to some readers it might seem like the princess actually swims better than anyone else in the fantasy kingdom... with the exception of the little green guys, but they don't really swim, they just bob like corks. 

Anyway. I should probably head out of the thread now since I'm taking it so far off topic. But I liked your comment and wanted to respond. Publicly, because I think it's good for me to put my feelings out on the line even when they sometimes aren't accepted.


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## purplepotamus (Nov 7, 2014)

Thank you, all. This has been an enlightening discussion and I am grateful for all the input I received from you. 

Enjoy your weekends. :happy:


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## Glenda Gnome Starr (May 12, 2011)

I think that I understand what you're saying.
I've never heard any swimming jokes about entire ethnic groups being unable to swim.
But I have seen and read news reports of kids going fishing and falling into the water and drowning because they were never taught how to swim.
That is terrible.
The kids' families have to suffer needlessly.
I don't know where the stereotype came about that some ethnic groups couldn't swim.
But it makes no sense.
Anyone can learn to swim with the right instructor.
Maybe we won't all be Olympic athletes but everyone needs to be safe around water.
Most cities were built close to large bodies of water.
But then again, there is no racist stereotype that makes sense.



WamphyriThrall said:


> You have to take context into account. Someone teaching you to dance simply because you need the help, or they're generous enough to offer is different than someone doing it because white people don't know how, so someone had better teach them (assuming you're white). The truth is, some authors might very well make up a story like this with racist stereotypes in mind, but unless you have the power to read minds, there's no way to know, and anyone treading these lines should be aware of how it might be perceived by readers.
> 
> It has nothing to do with life saving versus non-life saving skills. Someone could say "Asian people can't jump", or allude to that stereotype somehow, but it doesn't make the idea any less offensive. As a Mexican-American, I've heard countless swimming jokes, and can tell you they're NOT compliments, and unless you get the meaning, and have them applied to you regularly, you're not going to understand just how insulting they can be.


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## Glenda Gnome Starr (May 12, 2011)

You too. I hope that you have a magnificent weekend!



purplepotamus said:


> Thank you, all. This has been an enlightening discussion and I am grateful for all the input I received from you.
> 
> Enjoy your weekends. :happy:


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## TurtleQueen (Nov 8, 2014)

@Faiora

If you would like to PM me more about your story, I'd be happy to hear more about it. Based on what you have shared in this thread, it sounds like you tried to make a potentially problematic aspect of your story sound less like a lazy racial stereotype. It's a good thing, in my opinion, that you tried to create a less stereotypical portrayal instead of ignoring the criticism entirely.


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## Glenda Gnome Starr (May 12, 2011)

I am so sorry, @purplepotamus, that you do not feel that you are valued.
I just want to tell you that you have value because you exist.
You deserve respect because you exist.
And, because you exist, you enrich the world.
You are a very thoughtful person, and I really appreciate your insights.
You have helped me so much by sharing your perspective.
Have a great weekend.



purplepotamus said:


> Thank you, all. After thinking about everyone's comments, the one that sticks in my mind the most is the following:
> 
> 
> 
> I think I have to accept that, despite whatever painful experiences I've had with those outside of and (especially) within my race, feeling misunderstood, trying to prove my worth, etc., I got wrapped up in the fear of not being enough and the anger of not feeling valued. And it showed in everything I did. Maybe I should have viewed the bigger picture--working together to fight racial injustice in areas where I could contribute--and I thought that by getting my shit together I could demonstrate my value. But being on a quest to prove my individual value only proved that I was more focused on myself and not injustices faced by others (despite what I'd tell myself). My lack of trust in other people's intentions tended to lead me toward inaction rather than do something that would leave me feeling used. Yet, I let myself be used by those in positions of power rather than fight with those similar to me. I don't know if it's self-hate (i.e., hating my identified race) or just such deep mistrust based on past experiences that I let it cloud the bigger picture of working with other to fight for a greater cause. This is what leaves me with the most shame because I don't like to see others be hurt. But knowing that I was an unwitting participant is really painful for to acknowledge.


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

walking tourist said:


> I think that I understand what you're saying.
> I've never heard any swimming jokes about entire ethnic groups being unable to swim.
> But I have seen and read news reports of kids going fishing and falling into the water and drowning because they were never taught how to swim.
> That is terrible.
> ...


Apparently, it has its roots in the era of Jim Crow, when African Americans were discouraged from using public swimming pools:

History’s Influence on the Stereotype that Black People Don’t Swim

http://http://www.theinertia.com/surf/debunking-the-stereotype-that-blacks-dont-surf-or-swim/

Why Don’t Black People Swim? | Old School 100.3


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## xisnotx (Mar 20, 2014)

You don't have to be "for black" to be "against injustice".


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## InspectorDoohickey (Nov 12, 2012)

xisnotx said:


> You don't have to be "for black" to be "against injustice".


Yes, you do.


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## Caged Within (Aug 9, 2013)

purplepotamus said:


> WARNING: This is a highly-sensitive topic for me, and I will do my best to be open-minded to any responses, but am probably too emotionally fragile to handle any personal attacks.
> 
> Has anyone else dealt with, or is anyone currently dealing with, issues of racial identity? I'm not bi-racial, and for that reason I'm expected to have an obvious loyalty to my race. It's not that I don't, but I feel that I want to focus on finding commonalities among people I encounter and try to live a life that exhibits tolerance of all people. I've struggled throughout my life with feeling like a "sellout" among people of my race, and it's not that I am ignorant to racism still existing in the US. I guess I'm too much of an idealist and, quite frankly, ostrich to properly handle the complexities of the topic.
> 
> This has just been really heavy on my heart and mind. Just curious what others think ...


The only thing you should have loyalty to is yourself, for when times get hard, for the most part, all you'll have is yourself.


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

I had an experience which may have similarities but of a different kind. 

I've had Aboriginal friends growing up and I studied the Aboriginal culture at university out of interest. I can see quite clearly the arguments, misunderstandings, the racism which goes to the institutional level as well as everyday ignorance. 

It never struck me so much until I went to an area with such a high number of Aboriginals how very racist and ignorant Australia is. There were people who identified me as white assuming that I would be bitching and moaning like everyone else about how Aboriginals ruin everything for themselves and others. I could not get on board with it. I avoided arguments by being quiet sometimes and speaking out at other times when I was addressed directly. You get arseholes and they can be any colour, any religion and any ethnicity. I felt more comfortable being called a sister by the Aboriginals when I had any real conversation, and being myself in that town (a white red headed woman) than what I did talking to any other of the locals telling me about the Aboriginal problem and calling me a lefty or a weirdo for stating any belief I held. I don't think I've ever felt so out of place by my colour. I'm glad that I was not judged as harshly by the Aboriginal people there as I was by the Euro-descent whites.


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## Lexicon Devil (Mar 14, 2014)

@purplepotamus

I'm going to out you right here and now as a member of the human race.


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## VinnieBob (Mar 24, 2014)

Geoffrey Felis said:


> @purplepotamus
> 
> I'm going to out you right here and now as a member of the human race.


this coming from some one who call's himself @Geoffrey Felis


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## Lexicon Devil (Mar 14, 2014)

walking tourist said:


> I am so sorry, @purplepotamus, that you do not feel that you are valued.
> I just want to tell you that you have value because you exist.
> You deserve respect because you exist.
> And, because you exist, you enrich the world.
> ...


Such beautiful supportive words from a very kind heart. You have touched my heart with these words as well. Thank you.


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

xisnotx said:


> You don't have to be "for black" to be "against injustice".


Technically you do. Injustice has damaged everyone.


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## southernsunflower (Nov 28, 2014)

purplepotamus said:


> WARNING: This is a highly-sensitive topic for me, and I will do my best to be open-minded to any responses, but am probably too emotionally fragile to handle any personal attacks.
> 
> Has anyone else dealt with, or is anyone currently dealing with, issues of racial identity? I'm not bi-racial, and for that reason I'm expected to have an obvious loyalty to my race. It's not that I don't, but I feel that I want to focus on finding commonalities among people I encounter and try to live a life that exhibits tolerance of all people. I've struggled throughout my life with feeling like a "sellout" among people of my race, and it's not that I am ignorant to racism still existing in the US. I guess I'm too much of an idealist and, quite frankly, ostrich to properly handle the complexities of the topic.
> 
> This has just been really heavy on my heart and mind. Just curious what others think ...


I've wanted to answer this thread ever since I saw it. But I wanted to see what you'd answer BlissfulDreams first.

I'm multi-racial. I look like a lot of things that I'm not. And when I say I belong to [x] group or whatever, I'm told I am lying. Turns me off right away. Basically. Ironically, racial identity is a strong thing for me (although I have no animosity towards other races). It's just feeling like... belonging?) To me races are like flavors. It's saying "I come with this, I get angry (sometimes super angry/passionate and without warning at times when anything is said about these subjects". That's all. And there's room for many flavors. But "my flavor matters". Don't ignore it, you know? I can be the Black person that loves metal or the White person that loves rap. Whatever. I can be me darn it. (I'm making it way to easy by bringing out to music but you know).

As for being "loyal" to a race... I say you should have a freedom to be a sub-flavor. You are you. I'm in a country where I am constantly told I'm too [something] to belong (although I do). I want things to happen, therefore I'm "way too American"... LOL Also, I do belong (or feel strongly about belonging to a group) that I am not considered as able to affiliate to. What this has taught me? People have some darn friggin' rigid ideas of what it means to be 'anything'. And I just hate being forced into things. No one can told me what I can belong to (or just be open to). NO ONE!  Soooooo. I say do you. Be open. Listen to all. And be you  

I've got a motto, and this serves as well for belief systems: "If it makes you BOTH stronger and a better person, do it... people will always whine about how you don't conform... let them. They have a box... They're just getting irritated because you don't fit in it." Fine. it's less of a motto, more something I mutter to myself when I get irritated by anyone trying to fit anyone into any box (including me) 

The ultimate fantasy is when we are all who we are meant to be (and want to be) and say it out loud, and we can shut the voices that say all the things we should be really. Because, if I use the parallel of a song, that's when we sing out our note, and somehow, we find our songs... 

I'm tipsy at this point. Ignore if need be. Sorry. Going offline. For at least a week. Promise!


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## xisnotx (Mar 20, 2014)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> Technically you do. Injustice has damaged everyone.


black injustice isn't any more a problem than religious injustice, sexual injustice, [insert random group here] injustice...
and is, in my opinion, less of a problem than economic injustice...

the fact of the matter is, wealth is transferred, significantly at least, through familial lines. the common political rhetoric of recent elections was "starting on third base" as a way of expressing the economic gap people from different social groups face. it's not uncommon to hear the saying that "you have to be twice as good to have half as much" in black communities. it is known that blacks don't typically come from wealth and the money you get won't be handed down to you from your parents or grandparents. blacks don't have a history of wealth, typically, and it makes it that much harder for them to live the good life. and not just blacks, but people of all races, should they be black or white or asian. it just so happens, as a function of history, that "marginalized groups" find themselves in that situation in larger #s than non marginalized groups...that's what it means to be marginalized in the first place. and it makes people angry or desperate. 

though it seems like the recent insecurity america has faced is racially based, it's actually an economic problem. it falls in line with the ows movements, the great recession, and the culture of crime groups have turned to in order to improve their economic situation. that the system profiles certain people as more likely to commit crimes and responds to that how it does is neither surprising nor damnable. but what is is that people have to turn to such actions as a way of surviving in this world in the first place...as a way of eating, and supporting themselves, or their families. there is moral behavior, yes, but what supersedes moral behavior is the ability to behave in the first place! there is no morality in turning over and dying. 

that injustice has damaged everyone, a claim that isn't even true...(i'm talking about war profiteers here), as a counter claim to injustice not being the exclusive domain of black people is faulty reasoning. you can be "for justice" without being "for black" and i'd add that actual justice wouldn't be racially biased, rather racially conscious. 

the bigger travesty being, in my opinion anyway, economic injustice. that money trickles down from those who have it to those who don't is laughably absurd. as a half outsider, i just sit back and let the american people do whatever it is they want to. perhaps it isn't my place to speak out. plus, glass houses and stones. but, through an objective lens, i think that the elites of american society are playing a very dangerous game. the attitude people have is one of "then let them eat cake!" and no one needs to be told how that ended up going. but, i'll just keep on watching from the sidelines and nursing my own economic situation. every empire is destined to fall from grace. i'd rather america age like great britain, dignified..but it will need to allow people to allow it to do that. and the insecurity that has been going on....isn't particularly promising.


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## InspectorDoohickey (Nov 12, 2012)

xisnotx said:


> black injustice isn't any more a problem than religious injustice, sexual injustice, [insert random group here] injustice...
> and is, in my opinion, less of a problem than economic injustice...
> 
> the fact of the matter is, wealth is transferred, significantly at least, through familial lines. the common political rhetoric of recent elections was "starting on third base" as a way of expressing the economic gap people from different social groups face. it's not uncommon to hear the saying that "you have to be twice as good to have half as much" in black communities. it is known that blacks don't typically come from wealth and the money you get won't be handed down to you from your parents or grandparents. blacks don't have a history of wealth, typically, and it makes it that much harder for them to live the good life. and not just blacks, but people of all races, should they be black or white or asian. it just so happens, as a function of history, that "marginalized groups" find themselves in that situation in larger #s than non marginalized groups...that's what it means to be marginalized in the first place. and it makes people angry or desperate.
> ...


I can't really understand your post, but I think I get the sentiment.. and you're just soo wrong, in soo many ways. No, you cannot be for justice without being for black, you cannot be against injustice without being for black. You can't pick and choose which crimes, and oppression you acknowledge, and brand it justice. Because at that point it's a lie, it's a lie you tell yourself to hide the fact that you're racist scum. That's the reality

I'm not going to even mention the economics referenced in your post, because it'd just derail the thread. But you're wrong about that too, and if you want to make a fresh thread, I'd be glad to educate you on the connections between racism and economic inequality in the U.S.


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## witchy_fingers (Dec 2, 2014)

"Racial identity"? I'm not convinced that this is a thing, unless we are speaking genetically. For the record, I'm white. I would never unconditionally support someone of my race or expect them to do the same to me because of that fact, but I'm also not going to be more or less sympathetic with minorities over my own race. I can't understand why you would feel like a "sellout" unless you are conscious of a bias you have against your race, since you come across as being hyper-aware of race in general and are worried about not being viewed by others as "tolerant and accepting", causing you to pay special attention to other races. Why not just be fair to individuals without concerning yourself over how racists or entitled people will judge you?


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## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

purplepotamus said:


> WARNING: This is a highly-sensitive topic for me, and I will do my best to be open-minded to any responses, but am probably too emotionally fragile to handle any personal attacks.
> 
> Has anyone else dealt with, or is anyone currently dealing with, issues of racial identity? I'm not bi-racial, and for that reason I'm expected to have an obvious loyalty to my race. It's not that I don't, but I feel that I want to focus on finding commonalities among people I encounter and try to live *a life that exhibits tolerance of all people*. I've struggled throughout my life with feeling like a "sellout" among people of my race, and it's not that I am ignorant to racism still existing in the US. I guess I'm too much of an idealist and, quite frankly, ostrich to properly handle the complexities of the topic.
> 
> This has just been really heavy on my heart and mind. Just curious what others think ...


Eh...I don't get this?

I actually don't get it on more than one level, but I'd firstly like to clear up what you mean by "tolerance to all peoples"? As in if you look up the meaning of the word "tolerance" it makes what you said sound racist (not that you are, but it's something you should be aware of): *Tolerance* - "the ability or willingness to tolerate the existence of opinions or behaviour that one dislikes or disagrees with"

Ok, so now that that's out of the way, I'm not sure I get what you mean what what you said. What is a "crisis with racial identity"? I've been taught thru my religion that everyone is just humans, not different races - it's not like there are elves or dwarves in real life, which would constitute as actual races (namely that they are not related). The entire human species are all related, whether distantly or closely, and are all still the same species despite slight variations in outward appearances.

That aside, attempting to put myself in your shoes isn't seeming to work this time...Ok, so you worry about being loyal to your "race", do you feel that being nice to those you see as another race as being disloyal? Or do you think it's possible to associate too much with what you see as "racial groups"? :S

This is giving me a headache..


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