# Why do Fi users often have problems putting their feelings into words?



## liza_200 (Nov 13, 2010)

I think this part of the Fi ness is _clearly_ visible on the thinkers who also has a Fi as their function.


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## TaylorS (Jan 24, 2010)

LiquidLight said:


> The other thing about extraverted functions is that you have an objective standard by which to measure them. You can tell if someone is on Fe-autopilot (telling everyone how nice of a day they're having even if they look like ten miles of bad road). Whereas with Fi, we have to infer it, and our judgments might be wrong. What looks like selfishness to a Fe-type might not actually be what's motivating the Fi-type.
> 
> I have a photography class and the difference between Fi and Fe is so striking. The Fe types love to articulate why they take such and such photo, what it means to them, what the space represents, and on and on and on. The Fi types say next to nothing and when asked it's like "I dunno I just liked it for some reason." Or they begin to explain it from some other perspective like Sensation (it reminds me of a place a grew up, or the colors are nice, etc). But I notice it very difficult for them to express the qualities and why they are attracted to something, its just something internal that happens for them.
> 
> It's always interesting to watch Fe and Fi types go shopping because often the Fi type might love something that the Fe-type goes "yuck!" And the Fe-type can rail off a laundry list of reasons as to why its yucky, where the Fi-type might not be able to articulate what it is about it they like. They just say "its me," or "its just my personality," or something to that effect. I get the sense that Fi types are uncomfortable explaining their evaluations and might even feel put on the spot to have to try. Similar to a Ni-dom having to explain their intuitions or a Si-dom their perceptions.


Also, our society has a strong bias towards Te and so is not good in verbalizing Fi ideas because Te and Fi oppose each other. Us westerners are good at verbalizing shared objective concepts, definitions, and models; but we are not very good at verbalizing our personal evaluations and people tend to want to cover those Fi evaluations in Te conceptualizations and definitions so as to be understood.


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## Neon Knight (Aug 11, 2010)

I tend to like using metaphors or similes when I'm expressing feelings otherwise you probably won't get too much out of me except something along the lines of "well...because I just do". Although I have caught myself on what someone here described as Fe-autopilot when on the job or I'm not feeling particulary social. Talk about awkward...
:blushed:


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

Nayru said:


> Part of Fi is about always getting closer to the essence of something or a feeling, *so it IN IT'S NATURE is always shifting and changing*. I may feel like X about something, and an hour later I might feel completely different. _So how can I give a fixed answer to my feeling that keeps changing with every moment, to something that isn't fixed?_


Yes, I've heard both Fi and Ti described in terms of "*variables*" in a situation. It' goes along with Pe's "*emergent*" data or P in general's "openness". Emergent datawill lead to "variables".


> Fe users have pretty fixed feelings it seems. Fe users would, in a situation where they believe they "should" be angry, they fire off this feeling they call "Anger" and shout it out: "I can't believe what you've done!! I am angry!!!" It is like they *play the "role" of being angry*, or the "role" of being happy.


 OK, that's an interesting way of putting it! Should help me understand my wife better. I'll have to run this by her when she gets home.



JungyesMBTIno said:


> Yup, what you're describing would be you using T on F experiences - this really doesn't look like Fi though, because Fi types are the ones who tend to be the most in touch with why they feel the way they do about something, but they tend to be resistant to explaining it in technical ways (like, they feel that doing this doesn't do the truth of their feelings justice, since Fi is subjective feeling and something they would probably be very resistant to universalizing so that they can be technically universalized as some fundamental law of nature that everyone operates on (something Ti-ish) - they would probably feel dehumanized and like their personal feelings are no longer meaningful to their life, etc. I think this would apply to any introverted function in a sense (and dominant/demonic functions), where, for instance, dominant Ni would feel undermined if their personal intuitions are refuted by demonic Si as just being their own impression of the empirical (Si), rather than something that has a purpose to subvert this and seek meaning underlying impressions and feel like they can't be taken seriously, etc.).


 I meant, it may look like Fi _from the outside_, if people are going by a "Fe=expressed values; Fi=unable to express its values" notion.


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## knittigan (Sep 2, 2011)

Nayru said:


> Feelings are much more powerful and include a lot more things, deeper things that aren't as easily articulated for someone with Fi as their primary function. If you have Fi as primary function, it is controlling your being, so with no higher function to look at the feelings with, *you can't really explain the feelings as well as someone with Fi as tertiary function for example*.


This is really interesting. I've always wondered why I'm seemingly able to talk about my feelings (while simultaneously not being able to, really) more than the ENFPs and INFPs I know.


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## Mizmar (Aug 12, 2009)

LiquidLight said:


> I get the sense that Fi types are uncomfortable explaining their evaluations and might even feel put on the spot to have to try.


You couldn't be more correct. In my case, at least.


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## Dark NiTe (Mar 5, 2012)

All I know is that it allows me to approach behavior with an intuitive sense of right/wrong as far as morality goes. I can very much see it as being "selfish" since I will rattle people's cages so hard they will victimize themselves (textbook behavior of bullies getting a taste of their own medicine, it comes out at the speed of light). I find emotional manipulation to be the one universal sign of malintent, nearly regardless of the situation; it's simply not a means I condone to reach an end, because I feel there are always far less arbitrary means available if you do have good intentions. "The introverted feeling function concerns itself with the values expressed in the archetypal aspect of situations, often relating to the actual situation by measuring it against an ideal." Sounds like me in a nutshell.


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## pneumoceptor (Aug 25, 2011)

Nayru said:


> Fe users have pretty fixed feelings it seems. Fe users would, in a situation where they believe they "should" be angry, they fire off this feeling they call "Anger" and shout it out: "I can't believe what you've done!! I am angry!!!" It is like they play the "role" of being angry, or the "role" of being happy.


I have to say, this doesn't resonate with me. My feelings do not feel fixed at all. They are very much affected by external situations, particularly relational situations. Fe, I've heard it said, views almost every action as a movement toward or away from someone (at least every relational action). Do you mean that an Fe user's reactions are predictable, and fixed in that sense? Hmm... people close to me might argue otherwise .

When I act angry or sad, it's because I genuinely feel that way. Why do you suppose it comes across as playing a role?


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## Nayru (Mar 17, 2011)

@pneumoceptor 

You know what, I'm not sure about some of that myself now that I really think it over. Thanks, I'll look into it some more.

However I was thinking about the roles of Fe, and I'd be curious to hear what you and other Fe users have to say about it:

About the role-playing of Fe: 
Fe is about the relational, right? So how do you know how to feel, act and make decisions? By knowing who you are in relation to the other person. So someone with Fe operates in different roles, which each role having a set of "rules" on what you do and don't do, also about how you should feel when something happens (and genuinely feel it).
Role examples: 
-as a good daughter (in relation to father / mother)
-as a student 
-as a sister
-as a best friend
-as the helper 
-as a teacher
-as a secretary
etc...

and a Fe user can do, act and be quite differently from role to role. Is this somewhat accurate for Fe users? I'd love to hear how you feel about this!


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

> Fi types, from my perspective anyways, you never really know where that line is - you don't know if they're mad, sad, happy, offended, oppressed, jubilant. Nothing. In terms of feelings, the other person really doesn't have much to go on - which can leave the Fe user feeling in the dark, even somewhat "alone" in a relationship setting. There's a lot of guesswork involved and, as a T-dom, I feel like I'm constantly guessing wrong with Fi. I just never know where I stand, I never know what they're feeling about me or about a given situation - even if you think the relationship is good, there's still a "void" that you can feel - a void that you can't really get closer to them even if you wanted. They'll only let you "in" so far, and it can begin to test the insecurities of an Fe user. Is the Fi user keeping secrets from me? All Fe wants to do is to make the other person happy, but with Fi, you never really know how to do that because they don't give you many clues or open dialogue about what those things are. You have to guess what will make them happy, which can make inferior Fe feel aimless and directionless. Left out in the cold so to speak.
> 
> Fe wants transparency, it wants to know what's going on. It wants to discuss things openly, and it needs feedback in regards to emotions and feelings. It wants to dialogue about such things and when Fi doesn't oblige, Fe feels "shut out" to an extent, which takes mature Fe to overcome. My Fe is still very much a work in progress, so maybe I'm more vulnerable to that. I've seen Te users say similar things about Ti too - that it's hard to "read" because it never says much.
> 
> ...


This was all the perfect explanation! I have definitely noticed that lower Fe types tend to be the most "in the dark" with Fi, compared to higher Fe types. Like, it's funny how I'm an INTJ, my mom's my true opposite, an ISFJ, and my twin is an INTP, and my mom can handle my Fi much better than my own twin, who for so many years before I ever knew about MBTI, always got very pet-peeved and insecure when I would not be "responding" to her actions to keep me entertained, etc. (to this day, she's always irritated when she can't "read" my facial expressions and feeling responses, and tends to joke about how annoyingly "neutral" I look, LOL). It's amazing how Jung can explain these things I've noticed, but didn't have a clue about for such a long time!


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## KeroPanda (Jan 8, 2010)

Nayru said:


> @pneumoceptor
> 
> You know what, I'm not sure about some of that myself now that I really think it over. Thanks, I'll look into it some more.
> 
> ...


For me, it's less focus on the role and more focus on interacting in a way that would lead to good harmony, be it how I act, or how I use my words. Of course, we're perfectly capable of being nasty as well (Figuring out what is a good way of interacting would require knowledge of what is a bad way of interacting) - Basically you'd need to look at external influences as well as your own internal feelings when deciding what is a good way to achieve harmony. Based on this idea, perhaps Fi users are labelled as selfish because they're just more inclined to place heavier emphasis on their own internal feelings first, external influences secondary (assuming their internal feelings hasn't adopted a system that closely resembles Fe). I wouldn't say that it's impossible for a Fe type to understand where the Fi individual comes from, it's more dependent on how far away they are from each other when it comes to the whole internal-external focus.

An unhealthy Fe individual might believe that specific dynamics "roles" are more benficial, which can be labelled as manipulative. However, a more mature individual will realise that authenticity is important and focus less on playing roles/control and more on interacting well (That is their authentic self).

Stuff like being a teacher, mentor etc. Those aren't really Fe. They're more of a J thing in my mind. Setting out straight forward guidelines to interact in can make social interaction a little easier but ultimately Fe is more about the harmony (or maintaining positive relations) aspect for me.

Again at least, this is how it all plays out with me. I'm not sure how well it'll apply to other FJ users.


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## Eleventeenth (Aug 24, 2011)

@KeroKai mentioned the word "authenticity". This made me think: Fi is very authentic. At least it seems so to me. It's just hard to "align" with it since you can't really "see it"...if that makes sense.


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## Eleventeenth (Aug 24, 2011)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> This was all the perfect explanation! I have definitely noticed that lower Fe types tend to be the most "in the dark" with Fi, compared to higher Fe types. Like, it's funny how I'm an INTJ, my mom's my true opposite, an ISFJ, and my twin is an INTP, and my mom can handle my Fi much better than my own twin, who for so many years before I ever knew about MBTI, always got very pet-peeved and insecure when I would not be "responding" to her actions to keep me entertained, etc. (to this day, she's always irritated when she can't "read" my facial expressions and feeling responses, and tends to joke about how annoyingly "neutral" I look, LOL). It's amazing how Jung can explain these things I've noticed, but didn't have a clue about for such a long time!


Yeah, it could be an inferior-Fe, or less developed Fe thing. But, I have seen Fe-doms and other feelers struggle with Fi as well. Maybe an Fe-dom is able to "read" the emotions of Fi much better, which gives the Fe-dom (or one with well developed Fe) insight into how the Fi user is feeling, but I have seen Fe-doms complain about the lack of communication of Fi. And I've seen Te users complain about Ti's lack of communication. I don't know...I'm able to pick up cues, but like I said, there's a lot of guesswork involved in really knowing what is going on with introverts sometimes (lead Ti/Fi/Si/Ni).


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

Eric B said:


> And by comparison, as Ti dom, it looks like Fi, because I too cannot easily articulate why I like things. I'll be looking for some technical explanation and often there won't be any; because why we like things is a humane (personal/impersonal) subject, which is not as conscious. And with Fe as inferior, even if there is an objective reason, I might fear that others will think it's silly or whatever and keep it to myself.
> 
> So this is another reason there is often confusion between Fi and Ti preference. (Especially with some authorities really emphasizing the "express or not express feelings" definitions of Fe/Fi).


I guess is why I am Ti<Fe. I just like things just because, but then can easily explain to other people why I like them. I have the best of both worlds.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

I always test INFP..its annoying and I have doubts. <===just so we are clear on this.

There is a difference between feeling and emotion imo and while I do feel emotion I will not just put it out there for everyone to see. Those things are private, and often embarrassing. For example I'd rather clench my teeth and express anger then cry (know that sadness and crying is just another form of expressing anger). Other reasons will include me having feelings that are inappropriate to the moment or not feeling anything where I should be. Expressing what I should be expressing would be fake so I chose not to express anything. Example would be old lady crying in front of me because ..well she is old and bedridden...I feel absolutely nothing apart from a bit of stress and don't know how to deal with the situation. Later on I find out she died and I feel guilt for not doing more for her...you know odd things like that. How would Fe types deal with such things?... I have no idea. I also suck at comforting others and so on..because of such things and mostly just fake it.

Caring enough to actually make me genuinely react does provoke an extroversion of the feeling. Things like confessing love, hugging a family member and calming them down, making someone threatening back off from someone helpless, getting angry..blah blah.

Now feeling is kinda difficult to express because I simply don't know exactly why I like, dislike something <__< but also I take into consideration the other person and how what i say may influence him/her. Do I want the other person to be upset because I didn't like something? <.,< no lol...so I'd rather keep it to myself if it isn't a huge deal.

Reast assured when it is a big deal, then Fi types will let others know. Don't sweat the small stuff it isn't that important.

Also I'm a guy and have been raised so I don't "show weakness" aka get emotional. I think this also has a big part to play. F is a feeling and I "just know" that I like this song, because that is what I feel...there really isn't more behind it. It is that simple. Do i need any other reason then that?


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## MilkyWay132 (Jul 15, 2010)

I can relate..I don't like expressing my emotions in front of others either; when I'm upset I don't want to talk about what I'm feeling but to simply process things on my own. Sometimes it's hard to show people I really care for them, and it's hard to put my thoughts into words at times.


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

Rim said:


> I always test INFP..its annoying and I have doubts. <===just so we are clear on this.
> 
> There is a difference between feeling and emotion imo and while I do feel emotion I will not just put it out there for everyone to see. Those things are private, and often embarrassing. For example I'd rather clench my teeth and express anger then cry (know that sadness and crying is just another form of expressing anger). Other reasons will include me having feelings that are inappropriate to the moment or not feeling anything where I should be. Expressing what I should be expressing would be fake so I chose not to express anything. Example would be old lady crying in front of me because ..well she is old and bedridden...I feel absolutely nothing apart from a bit of stress and don't know how to deal with the situation. Later on I find out she died and I feel guilt for not doing more for her...you know odd things like that. How would Fe types deal with such things?... I have no idea. I also suck at comforting others and so on..because of such things and mostly just fake it.


This makes sense to me. As an Fe user, I would have given the old lady a hug, and told her to tell me what's going on. This is proof that you are an Fi user that you felt guilty afterwards as well. You felt guilty because you felt that you acted in an immoral way by not helping the old lady.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

The Great One said:


> This makes sense to me. As an Fe user, I would have given the old lady a hug, and told her to tell me what's going on. This is proof that you are an Fi user that you felt guilty afterwards as well. You felt guilty because you felt that you acted in an immoral way by not helping the old lady.


I did help her by talking with her and doing things around the house. I guess keeping her company was the biggest help. However I did not express compassion directly by hugging or you know the compassion stuff Fe users are supposed to do. I actually am very uncomfortable doing anything like that unless it is with my girlfriend (^^ I want to do it for her..but dislike doing it for others...this includes family members).

I'm more comfortable with doing things for people, helping out, fixing the problem and so on. Expressing affection...is very difficult for me and I do come to regret not doing so...sometimes I feel I don't do enough..or I don't exactly know....but it feels like guilt.

I also don't expect people to figure it out and know that it comes across very "hidden"....still changing it and opening up feels uncomfortable.


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

Rim said:


> I did help her by talking with her and doing things around the house. I guess keeping her company was the biggest help. However I did not express compassion directly by hugging or you know the compassion stuff Fe users are supposed to do. I actually am very uncomfortable doing anything like that unless it is with my girlfriend (^^ I want to do it for her..but dislike doing it for others...this includes family members).
> 
> I'm more comfortable with doing things for people, helping out, fixing the problem and so on. Expressing affection...is very difficult for me and I do come to regret not doing so...sometimes I feel I don't do enough..or I don't exactly know....but it feels like guilt.


I wouldn't feel too bad about it. I mean often times older people don't have anyone to visit them. Just being there in that older lady's presence probably pleased her more than you know.


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## pneumoceptor (Aug 25, 2011)

Nayru said:


> You know what, I'm not sure about some of that myself now that I really think it over. Thanks, I'll look into it some more.
> 
> However I was thinking about the roles of Fe, and I'd be curious to hear what you and other Fe users have to say about it:
> 
> ...


I agree with the idea that I (as an Fe user, probably?) am very aware of the expected role I'm to play in a given relationship. And if I do not feel internally in a way that is compatible with the "status quo", I have a lot of internal conflict that has to be sorted out. That can look like changing the role I have in the relationship or changing my expectations.

How you described changing from role to role sounds chameleon-like to me. I'm not sure if I agree with it, but I'll let you judge based on my actions...

Some examples...

If I'm interacting with someone whom I'm not close to, say an acquaintance, I don't have any expectations on myself except that I be kind. If it's someone who's slighted me, I don't feel like being kind. I try to be anyway, although I fail sometimes.

If I'm interacting with say a parent, whom I love a great deal but who doesn't "get" me and isn't particularly "safe", I keep up some boundaries but express care and love towards them. I don't divulge as much about myself, but I'm happy to talk to them about their lives.

If I'm interacting with someone I love and who makes me feel loved, a "safe" relationship, I'm far more vulnerable with my own stuff, and I also express care and love towards them.

Regarding the harmony aspect, I don't think that harmony is my #1 goal. I know it's attributed to Fe, but it just doesn't play out that way for me. My #1 goal is loving people well, which requires a great deal of authenticity and intentionality. And sometimes loving others well necessitates conflict. I would rather have conflict that prompts a relationship toward restoration than keep quiet for the sake of avoiding conflict. Maybe this is simply a bigger picture version of harmony?

Does this answer your question?


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## sanari (Aug 23, 2011)

The Great One said:


> Being an ENTP with a heavy Fe, I can ALWAYS put my feelings into words. However, it seems that a lot of Fi users can't. Can someone explain this to me?


I have absolutely no problem putting my feelings into words. I just have problems actually feeling what I am feeling - as though my emotions are narration boxes in a comic strip.


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

sanari said:


> I have absolutely no problem putting my feelings into words. I just have problems actually feeling what I am feeling - as though my emotions are narration boxes in a comic strip.


Not a big surprise. Te can do that as well.


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## Mizmar (Aug 12, 2009)

sanari said:


> I have absolutely no problem putting my feelings into words. I just have problems actually feeling what I am feeling - as though my emotions are narration boxes in a comic strip.


I find that so fascinating. How do you know what you're feeling if you can't . . . _feel_ it?


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

I 100% agree with the observation that Fe sort-of becomes the feelings or role-plays them - this is actually very much like how Te pretty much "becomes" a certain methodology - Te types tend to model themselves off of certain ideologies and principles in the way that they uphold them in their lives. They are often the types who aren't going to act in ways that aren't logically consistent with their conception of what acting logically is. They are very much the types who are "true to their word" in the sense that they will respond to external expectations via logic - based on the logical truth of the situation, and they will refer to external data points to determine the most logical action at a given moment, based on how they navigate the world with logic. So interestingly enough, it's not the logic that they use that's specific in nature, but the way that they use it that is specific, since it's a more situational logic, unlike Ti. The same goes for Fe - it's not the feelings that are specific in nature, but the way that they use it that is specific, since it's a more situational feeling values judgement, unlike Fi. Fi and Ti are naturally specific in nature, since they don't adapt themselves to the outside world, but the way that they use it is more general.


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## sanari (Aug 23, 2011)

Mizmar said:


> I find that so fascinating. How do you know what you're feeling if you can't . . . _feel_ it?


Hmmm, I don't know. Like, let's say something makes me angry. I know that I am angry... but my focus is completely on finding out the reason I am angry, not being enveloped by anger. It just does not envelop me.

I analyze it for validity. "Why am I angry? Is the reason I am angry something someone else did? Is it because I have misunderstood something? Is it because there has been a breakdown in communication?" and so on.

If it is completely internal, I disregard it, and find a solution to my turmoil. If it is external, I go to the other person/stimulus and solve the issue. Either way, the feeling dissipates.

Or possibly is repressed. 

I might be a volcano if things are being repressed, though.


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## Kito (Jan 6, 2012)

I've never been able to do this easily. I'm either afraid of what response I'm going to get, or just... don't know how to describe them. Emotions are ridiculously complex things that you only feel deep inside of you. It's not like you can pull them out, analyze them, write about them and then put them back in. 

After having a pretty big argument with someone today, I decided to actually tell them how I was feeling... wow it felt weird. I felt so odd and uncomfortable explaining what I usually keep so private. It feels like I've let out vital information that I'd promised to keep secret. Also, sometimes it feels like what I'm saying will never truly represent what I'm feeling, so it's like it's not worth writing anything and it'll be more useful just to keep quiet.


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## thor odinson (May 21, 2011)

The Great One said:


> Being an ENTP with a heavy Fe, I can ALWAYS put my feelings into words. However, it seems that a lot of Fi users can't. Can someone explain this to me?


A feeling is not like logic. It's not crystcal clear.

A feeling or emotion is a complex experience, not necessarily caused by one factor but by many some of which may even contradict each other. It's asscoiated with a vibe, tone, "feel" that something gives you and that somethign could be anything i.e. single word, statement, physical location, ideology/philosophy, weather, image or picture and a picture's worth a 1000 words.

Least for Fi this is how it is, it's about how you feel internally about something it's not really for expression which seems what Fe was almost built for if you like, feeling expressed, hence why it's extraverted.

Plus sometimes it's hard to find just the right word to exactly convey the depth of the emotion and anything less will not suffice for a worthy and accurate description. Some words are just to generic and may convey the wrong idea.


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

Kitzara said:


> After having a pretty big argument with someone today, I decided to actually tell them how I was feeling... wow it felt weird. I felt so odd and uncomfortable explaining what I usually keep so private. It feels like I've let out vital information that I'd promised to keep secret. Also, sometimes it feels like what I'm saying will never truly represent what I'm feeling, so it's like it's not worth writing anything and it'll be more useful just to keep quiet.


 I know exactly what is going on internally, this is very much how it is for me too. I loved the part you described with words that will never truly represent exactly how you're feeling, its like there are no words in the English dictionary to make it crystal clear. I also feel odd and uncomfortable trying to explain, because it is so private. I usually get frustrated trying to convey exactly , yet can only get the surface of it out. It feels like my thoughts externally don't match my inner compass. My husband will say " I know there is more going on than just that" Yes, there is, just give me time in order to gasp the words that match all that. So glad i'm no the only one who struggles with this verbal affirmation of introverted feeling.

This isn't with everyone thou, i can get to the depth of what i want to say verbally with my husband, even some of my close friends. I think it comes down to trust, and people who will be patient enough to give you the time to get it just right, but is it ever just right, sigh:/...it seems satisfactory at best sometimes.



> Plus sometimes it's hard to find just the right word to exactly convey the depth of the emotion and anything less will not suffice for a worthy and accurate description. Some words are just to generic and may convey the wrong idea.


I identify with this so much also.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> This was all the perfect explanation! I have definitely noticed that lower Fe types tend to be the most "in the dark" with Fi, compared to higher Fe types. Like, it's funny how I'm an INTJ, my mom's my true opposite, an ISFJ, and my twin is an INTP, and my mom can handle my Fi much better than my own twin, who for so many years before I ever knew about MBTI, always got very pet-peeved and insecure when I would not be "responding" to her actions to keep me entertained, etc. (to this day, she's always irritated when she can't "read" my facial expressions and feeling responses, and tends to joke about how annoyingly "neutral" I look, LOL). It's amazing how Jung can explain these things I've noticed, but didn't have a clue about for such a long time!


Taking it from the view of dominant extroverted feeling, it's is about another person's feelings, so of course it's going to be more able to not only understand, but express it as well. It's how I function in the world. Coupled with Ni --- whenever I'm on my own, it's not that I'm doing relaxing activities to escape from the world --- it's where the inferior function coupled with Ni is trying to process all this new information about others' feelings and trying to come up with reasons, and potential new ways of either helping others deal with their problems, or trying to rationalize why or why not to get, or stay involved. 

Yes, others dominate my existence - and not just from a connection point of view --- but from the point of view of _their _emotional health, _their _wellness, _their _needs. My needs comes from the fulfilment of their needs. When I make a goal for myself, it's almost always from the perspective of "taking someone else along for the ride". This could be with regards to my career choices, to lifestyle choices, to something even as simple as who I'm going to go shopping with and whether that would make them happy or not. And from that, it's easy to derive my own purpose. 

Being in the dominant position ---- that's ALL that matters to me as a _preference_. However, of course, not always. Even though I'm able to "shut it off" at times, but shutting extroverted feeling off is like taking a pen and gauging my own eyes out because after some time, I start feeling like I'm blind as I'm no longer _connected_.

It can be pretty draining at times, honestly --- when one's focus is entirely external. I mean, sometimes, I can't even take the last piece of chicken from the plate without considering the feelings of others on the table


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## Anubis (Nov 30, 2011)

LiquidLight said:


> The other thing about extraverted functions is that you have an objective standard by which to measure them. You can tell if someone is on Fe-autopilot (telling everyone how nice of a day they're having even if they look like ten miles of bad road). Whereas with Fi, we have to infer it, and our judgments might be wrong. What looks like selfishness to a Fe-type might not actually be what's motivating the Fi-type.
> 
> I have a photography class and the difference between Fi and Fe is so striking. The Fe types love to articulate why they take such and such photo, what it means to them, what the space represents, and on and on and on. The Fi types say next to nothing and when asked it's like "I dunno I just liked it for some reason." Or they begin to explain it from some other perspective like Sensation (it reminds me of a place a grew up, or the colors are nice, etc). But I notice it very difficult for them to express the qualities and why they are attracted to something, its just something internal that happens for them.
> 
> It's always interesting to watch Fe and Fi types go shopping because often the Fi type might love something that the Fe-type goes "yuck!" And the Fe-type can rail off a laundry list of reasons as to why its yucky, where the Fi-type might not be able to articulate what it is about it they like. They just say "its me," or "its just my personality," or something to that effect. I get the sense that Fi types are uncomfortable explaining their evaluations and might even feel put on the spot to have to try. Similar to a Ni-dom having to explain their intuitions or a Si-dom their perceptions.


I saved this is in a document to show people... it's so true


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## KeroPanda (Jan 8, 2010)

pneumoceptor said:


> Regarding the harmony aspect, I don't think that harmony is my #1 goal. I know it's attributed to Fe, but it just doesn't play out that way for me. My #1 goal is loving people well, which requires a great deal of authenticity and intentionality. And sometimes loving others well necessitates conflict. I would rather have conflict that prompts a relationship toward restoration than keep quiet for the sake of avoiding conflict. Maybe this is simply a bigger picture version of harmony?


I personally do think love for others is a bigger view of harmony. It's not only caring about the relationship between yourself and others, but the relationship within themselves as well. There can't be harmony with another person if they themselves are suffering inside after all. Tough love does come into that equation as well.



Jawz said:


> Yes, others dominate my existence - and not just from a connection point of view --- but from the point of view of _their _emotional health, _their _wellness, _their _needs. My needs comes from the fulfilment of their needs.


The idea above, coupled with this is basically how I'd describe Fe overall in a nutshell.

Guess this is the reason that Fe individuals can sometimes come across as pretty invasive. At the same time, there are Fe individuals who don't want to get involved because caring about people requires a lot of effort, especially when they are going down what appears to be paths of destruction. There are times when watching becomes way too much.


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## KeroPanda (Jan 8, 2010)

Double Post. ^^'

Where's the delete button.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

KeroKai said:


> The idea above, coupled with this is basically how I'd describe Fe overall in a nutshell.


Yup. That's just Fe in it's purest form [as an experience, and not as a theoretical substitute], but without the interpretive "why's" and "why nots" that come from Si/Ni. 

If you notice, there's a huge similarity between the experience of Fe as well as the description of Enneagram Type 2 - which is another reason why a lot of Fe-dom's/Auxes are immediately assumed to be Enneagram Type 2's - That said, many of them are actually Type 2's .. but that's for an entirely different forum altogether 



> Guess this is the reason that Fe individuals can sometimes come across as pretty invasive. At the same time, there are Fe individuals who don't want to get involved because caring about people requires a lot of effort, especially when they are going down what appears to be paths of destruction. There are times when watching becomes way too much.


^^That's using Ni/Si to try to control the inherent pull of the Fe, honestly. The more information an Fe-user has, the broader the perspective, and the stronger the ability to detach oneself from the plights of others. Perhaps in a sense when an Fe-dom rationalizes that "No, that person doesn't need help, or should help himself/herself and is not my responsibility. People should be able to take care of themselves." then that's when it may start to sort of come close to Fi's description --- but it's not really Fi, it's still leading with Fe but allowing the rest of the functions to process the decision completely.


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## Happy about Nothing. (Mar 24, 2011)

sanari said:


> Hmmm, I don't know. Like, let's say something makes me angry. I know that I am angry... but my focus is completely on finding out the reason I am angry, not being enveloped by anger. It just does not envelop me.
> 
> I analyze it for validity. "Why am I angry? Is the reason I am angry something someone else did? Is it because I have misunderstood something? Is it because there has been a breakdown in communication?" and so on.
> 
> ...


Is this why INTJs seem very intent on immediately solving conflicts involving emotional turmoil with those close to them? Because otherwise they will keep looking for solutions until the problem has been resolved?


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## sanari (Aug 23, 2011)

Regarding anger, or injustice, for instance.

Yes. And this has been a problem in my relationships [some of them] - because the other person "doesn't want to talk right now." "I need my peace of mind, dangit" is the thought that motivates me to push the issue. If the issue isn't allowed to be broached, it WILL be suppressed [I can only say this of me] so I can have peace of mind.

Then when we're talking about it on his terms, I am very objective in my approach because the emotion is no longer..... around. But I still remember why it happened. Or I've moved on and don't care anymore.

Did you ever experience any of the above?


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## Happy about Nothing. (Mar 24, 2011)

Eleventeenth said:


> Fi types, from my perspective anyways, you never really know where that line is - you don't know if they're mad, sad, happy, offended, oppressed, jubilant. Nothing. In terms of feelings, the other person really doesn't have much to go on - which can leave the Fe user feeling in the dark, even somewhat "alone" in a relationship setting. There's a lot of guesswork involved and, as a T-dom, I feel like I'm constantly guessing wrong with Fi. I just never know where I stand, I never know what they're feeling about me or about a given situation - even if you think the relationship is good, there's still a "void" that you can feel - a void that you can't really get closer to them even if you wanted. They'll only let you "in" so far, and it can begin to test the insecurities of an Fe user. Is the Fi user keeping secrets from me? All Fe wants to do is to make the other person happy, but with Fi, you never really know how to do that because they don't give you many clues or open dialogue about what those things are. You have to guess what will make them happy, which can make inferior Fe feel aimless and directionless. Left out in the cold so to speak.
> 
> Fe wants transparency, it wants to know what's going on. It wants to discuss things openly, and it needs feedback in regards to emotions and feelings. It wants to dialogue about such things and when Fi doesn't oblige, Fe feels "shut out" to an extent, which takes mature Fe to overcome. My Fe is still very much a work in progress, so maybe I'm more vulnerable to that. I've seen Te users say similar things about Ti too - that it's hard to "read" because it never says much.


Even as dom. Fe, I really relate to this. Fi is very ambiguous to me, which makes me unaware of where I stand at any given moment. I adore Fi users, but, specifically with dom. Fi users, I get pretty scared that I'm going to get blindsided by something they feel that I wasn't aware of. It takes someone who is very confident to be able to endure with it. I almost wish I could go back to misunderstanding Fi so the nature of it wouldn't be so elusive and frightening to me.


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## TitaniaRose (Oct 27, 2011)

KeroKai said:


> I personally do think love for others is a bigger view of harmony. It's not only caring about the relationship between yourself and others, but the relationship within themselves as well. There can't be harmony with another person if they themselves are suffering inside after all. Tough love does come into that equation as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know I'm a Fi dom, but this sounds a lot like how I can be. I pretty much always come out high Fe as well(never as high as Fi though) when I take cognitive quizzes because I think I am just pretty high on both - but in terms of decisions or instincts I am Fi over Fe so I'm not entirely sure if what I say will make any sense:

I can be invasive - I want to know exactly why a person is feeling this or that and it bothers me not knowing. Sometimes it bothers me because I want to fix it so 'everyone' can be happy. For example - if one person is ruining the mood - than that puts a damper on the whole situation which I don't like. So I will want to address it. I do get to that point sometimes as well 'I can't care anymore because you're too difficult and it should be THIS way, no other way!' I get like that. I used to especially when I was younger get really annoyed when one person wasn't behaving the way we should all be behaving. It really grated on me and I'd send them dagger stares sometimes. I still feel like that a lot. But I actively go against Fe quite often. I get sick of sending Christmas cards - in fact I don't even like cards usually(except funny/clever ones) because I think they are kind of meaningless - except in certain situations - like I don't know, thank you cards can be useful if you have a lot of people to thank for something. I have a habit of tossing people's cards aside - and I have to remind myself not to do this, because it's rude. With my dad - who seems pretty Fe to me, would get mortally offended if I did this. He always makes a point to read whatever I say in the cards I give him although normally I'm just writing something to fill the space, he takes it seriously. 

I'm Fi when it comes to myself. I hate being asked to explain my feelings as if just that simple, I've even been called immature - 'adults should be able to express themselves properly.' Which drives me crazy because I don't feel it's immaturity, it's just feelings can be too complex and I normally feel a multitude of things. I have a problem where I can't even stay exactly within one feeling. But goes back and forth constantly. Today something might be tolerable - and completely intolerable another day. I will never be able to settle on an exact opinion on some things. It's just how I am I guess. 

I don't know. I don't always apply my own standards to others. I hate people prodding me to explain my feelings but I completely do this to other people. It is hypocritical I suppose.


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## Happy about Nothing. (Mar 24, 2011)

sanari said:


> Yes. And this has been a problem in my relationships [some of them] - because the other person "doesn't want to talk right now." "I need my peace of mind, dangit" is the thought that motivates me to push the issue. If the issue isn't allowed to be broached, it WILL be suppressed [I can only say this of me] so I can have peace of mind.
> 
> Then when we're talking about it on his terms, I am very objective in my approach because the emotion is no longer..... around. But I still remember why it happened. Or I've moved on and don't care anymore.
> 
> Did you ever experience any of the above?


I'm the type of person to pull away or avoid conflicts; however, I can't stand feeling like the other person is upset with me either. Undertones of passive aggression can almost completely overwhelm me. I was in a long term relationship with an INTJ, and we're still good friends. One of the things I like about him (albeit it can be exhausting at times) is that he really pushes for conflict resolution. It has actually helped me a great deal, as I no longer fear conflict as much and am much more brave when it comes to confronting others about things that upset me.

I imagine that it would be difficult to be in a situation where something continues to upset you. Do you ever get blindsided by your Fi?


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## sanari (Aug 23, 2011)

Happy about Nothing. said:


> I'm the type of person to pull away or avoid conflicts; however, I can't stand feeling like the other person is upset with me either. Undertones of passive aggression can almost completely overwhelm me. I was in a long term relationship with an INTJ, and we're still good friends. One of the things I like about him (albeit it can be exhausting at times) is that he really pushes for conflict resolution. It has actually helped me a great deal, as I no longer fear conflict as much and am much more brave when it comes to confronting others about things that upset me.
> 
> I imagine that it would be difficult to be in a situation where something continues to upset you. Do you ever get blindsided by your Fi?


Hmmm, I don't know. What do you mean by blindsided?

Like, experience an emotion I didn't know was there??


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## TitaniaRose (Oct 27, 2011)

Happy about Nothing. said:


> I'm the type of person to pull away or avoid conflicts; however, I can't stand feeling like the other person is upset with me either. Undertones of passive aggression can almost completely overwhelm me. I was in a long term relationship with an INTJ, and we're still good friends. One of the things I like about him (albeit it can be exhausting at times) is that he really pushes for conflict resolution. It has actually helped me a great deal, as I no longer fear conflict as much and am much more brave when it comes to confronting others about things that upset me.
> 
> I imagine that it would be difficult to be in a situation where something continues to upset you. Do you ever get blindsided by your Fi?



I can't stand not knowing where I stand with someone. I am the type to push for conflict resolution, absolutely and I can become kind of over bearing about it. It really upsets me if someone is upset with me. Sometimes even irrationally - like even sometimes when I am angry at someone, I don't want them to be angry at me so I will try and find a compromise. I guess the only time I'm up for out and out conflict is when my Fi comes into the picture. Then harmony can go out the window. If someone seriously steps on a feeling/issue that is important to me. 

I don't know what this is exactly - but I've tried to compromise with people on things that were of huge importance to me, and I would try and try and try. I would be nice, try to understanding and be tolerant. But then when push came to shove I couldn't do it, I had to end the relationship because as hard as I tried to meet in the middle, I really couldn't do it. Sometimes I've really struck people with this because they thought we solved the issues months ago, but we didn't really. I only tried to make it be solved - but it never really went away and for me that's a deal breaker I guess. I guess that might be trying to use my Fe, but going with Fi in the end I don't know?


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## Happy about Nothing. (Mar 24, 2011)

sanari said:


> Hmmm, I don't know. What do you mean by blindsided?
> 
> Like, experience an emotion I didn't know was there??


Yes, as in experience it out of nowhere I suppose. I've seen the explosion before, where somehow the Ni and Te are bypassed. I guess I somewhat assumed that it had something to do with the unfamiliarity of your feelings/what to do with them. I rarely feel blindsided by my emotions, because I'm pretty much always feeling _something_. I actually start to worry when I don't feel a variety of emotions for even a couple days.


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## sanari (Aug 23, 2011)

Happy about Nothing. said:


> Yes, as in experience it out of nowhere I suppose. I've seen the explosion before, where somehow the Ni and Te are bypassed. I guess I somewhat assumed that it had something to do with the unfamiliarity of your feelings/what to do with them. I rarely feel blindsided by my emotions, because I'm pretty much always feeling _something_. I actually start to worry when I don't feel a variety of emotions for even a couple days.


Hmmm. I'll have to think about this. brb

Edit:

I don't think the explosive reaction is connected to Fi. Different strokes, for different folks.

However, if I am inundated with emotion and cannot analyze it quickly enough - I WILL get overwhelmed. The reaction to being overwhelmed, most times for me, is to shut down.

"Windows will be shutting down. Please remember to save all tasks before exiting."


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## Autumn Raven (Jun 28, 2011)

For the intensity and depth of my feelings, there are no words. I am highly aware of them, but am limited by language. I am often compelled to express affection through actions for this reason. I've yet to discover a method which is completely effective for projecting these things that boil up inside of me. 
Words understate my feelings. Let 'em flow through the tips of my fingers, and hope like hell there are mind readers around.


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## Eleventeenth (Aug 24, 2011)

Autumn Raven said:


> For the intensity and depth of my feelings, there are no words. I am highly aware of them, but am limited by language. I am often compelled to express affection through actions for this reason. I've yet to discover a method which is completely effective for projecting these things that boil up inside of me.
> Words understate my feelings. Let 'em flow through the tips of my fingers, *and hope like hell there are mind readers around.*


Haha. G'luck with the bolded. Seriously though, that sounds very, very challenging and even frustrating to me. I've never been an Fi-dom so I obviously don't know what it's like, but I can't imagine not being able to articulate what I want to say. Well, actually I can because Ti is like that sometimes too, but if I'm allowed to communicate in writing, I'm usually able to articulate whatever piece of the puzzle that I wasn't able to communicate in person.

Also, I would hope that Fi'ers wouldn't get angry or upset with others when we are unable to read your mind. It's really not our fault that we can't read your mind. Most people would probably actually love to know what's brewing on the inside, if only you could articulate it.


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## pneumoceptor (Aug 25, 2011)

sanari said:


> Hmmm, I don't know. Like, let's say something makes me angry. I know that I am angry... but my focus is completely on finding out the reason I am angry, not being enveloped by anger. It just does not envelop me.


This does not ring true for me, which leads me to believe it's some combination of Te-Fi rather than Fe-Ti. I don't have a lot of anger, so I'll replace it with "sad", another intense unwanted emotion... but when I'm sad, I am enveloped by my sadness...



> I analyze it for validity. "Why am I angry? Is the reason I am angry something someone else did? Is it because I have misunderstood something? Is it because there has been a breakdown in communication?" and so on.


However, this does ring true for me! This is always what I do when I feel an intense "negative" emotion. I can't get rid of the emotion, and that can cloud my reasoning, but my ultimate goal is to understand why. This makes me think that what you're describing is Ni...



> If it is completely internal, I disregard it, and find a solution to my turmoil. If it is external, I go to the other person/stimulus and solve the issue. Either way, the feeling dissipates.


This, again, does not ring true. I can't disregard for the life of me, even if I try... 

Interesting similarities and differences between Ni-Te-Fi and Ni-Fe-Ti.


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

Eleventeenth said:


> Haha. G'luck with the bolded. [*and hope like hell there are mind readers around.*] Seriously though, that sounds very, very challenging and even frustrating to me. I've never been an Fi-dom so I obviously don't know what it's like, but I can't imagine not being able to articulate what I want to say. Well, actually I can because Ti is like that sometimes too, but if I'm allowed to communicate in writing, I'm usually able to articulate whatever piece of the puzzle that I wasn't able to communicate in person.
> 
> Also, I would hope that Fi'ers wouldn't get angry or upset with others when we are unable to read your mind. It's really not our fault that we can't read your mind. Most people would probably actually love to know what's brewing on the inside, if only you could articulate it.


The "read their mind" part is another great evidence (which I've sort of glossed over) that the Fi dom is Supine. 
The need to read one's mind is a common description of this fifth temperament The Supine Temperament (Which probably went unrecognized for all those centuries, precisely because they need people to read their minds to know their wants, making them appear like Melancholies, or maybe Phlegmatics).

I had to consider this, as on one hand, a lot of the descriptions of the temperament "Servant's heart", etc) may sounds like an Fe type (particularly ISFJ), but this is good evidence of Fi. (And as I also say, Fe and Fi can achieve the same things like empathy, etc).
INFP will be the purest Supine, and ISFP will be Supine-Sanguine, which is similar. For me, I have the Choleric (NT), which changes the dynamic completely, at least as far as the judging functions. The aggressive Choleric mixes with the passive Supine to produce an ambivalence towards expressing my feelings or needs or going for what I want, which translates to Fe in an inferior position.

Other INTP's may not relate, because they may be Phlegmatic in place of Supine. That would probably be more typical of the type. (ISFJ is the Supine-Melancholy, and that also converts the Feeling to an extraverted orientation).


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## StaggerLee (Jan 8, 2012)

Autumn Raven said:


> For the intensity and depth of my feelings, there are no words. I am highly aware of them, but am limited by language. I am often compelled to express affection through actions for this reason. I've yet to discover a method which is completely effective for projecting these things that boil up inside of me.
> Words understate my feelings. Let 'em flow through the tips of my fingers, and hope like hell there are mind readers around.


And that's why there's poetry.


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

Eric B said:


> The "read their mind" part is another great evidence (which I've sort of glossed over) that the Fi dom is Supine.
> The need to read one's mind is a common description of this fifth temperament The Supine Temperament (Which probably went unrecognized for all those centuries, precisely because they need people to read their minds to know their wants, making them appear like Melancholies, or maybe Phlegmatics).
> 
> I had to consider this, as on one hand, a lot of the descriptions of the temperament "Servant's heart", etc) may sounds like an Fe type (particularly ISFJ), but this is good evidence of Fi. (And as I also say, Fe and Fi can achieve the same things like empathy, etc).
> ...


What types would correlate with the Supine temperament?


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

ISF, INP (Inclusion), NF (Control). The "purest" one would be INFP. the others are blended with the other temperaments. (Phlegmatic could be those groups as well).


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## Tad Cooper (Apr 10, 2010)

I definitely fit with all the stuff said on here about seeming sensitive etc and the Supine temperament (it drives me family mad that I can't explain and still want the right reaction from them XD).

I think Fi is confusing for users because it's so personal and sometimes very painful or scary to look at. It feels like 'me' and so if it's damaged 'I' have been damaged.


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## Aelthwyn (Oct 27, 2010)

I've never personally had trouble communicating my feelings through words, however I do have this sense of feelings (and also ideas/thoughts) having a raw essence that is just meanings unconfined by words and which is all mixed together in a cloud with every other thought and feeling inside me, and sometimes the nuances of certain thoughts/feelings don't have convenient direct word transaltions so it can end up sounding confusing to others as I try to explain. 

Also, I can feel drained by outward expression, so often once I've expressed a feeling once to someone, I don't feel up to re-hashing it for anyone else.


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## The King Of Dreams (Aug 18, 2010)

Yeah, Fi is difficult for me to explain. It takes me like 100 years to explain it right.


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## Neon Knight (Aug 11, 2010)

When stuck I find metaphors can come in handy in some situations, especially when writing creatively.


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## Portal (Jan 3, 2012)

The Great One said:


> Being an ENTP with a heavy Fe, I can ALWAYS put my feelings into words. However, it seems that a lot of Fi users can't. Can someone explain this to me?


I don't quite know for sure so I'm just going off on what I feel is right but anyhow I think it has to do with not understanding the emotions. I believe that feelings are definitions of changes within you. From my experience, I have a vague image of how I "feel" however it's a blur image covered with thick smoke. I have a sense of how I feel at that given moment and it is good enough for me. If by some reason I were forced to share that feeling with someone I would have a hard time because I haven't been through that emotions long enough to have empirical facts to support how I feel. 

Back when I was with my ex I love her as much as I still love her now. However, whenever she would ask me about how I feel I had a hard time telling her because I don't know how to reason my love out loud. It was quite hard to sit down and talk about a cause and effect when it comes to feelings for me. The whole "you did that and it makes me feel this" was hard because when an action occurred my mind just goes blank, and it actually takes me awhile to analyze the situation and my reactions to be able to develop a definition for the alteration that occurred within me. While developing my definition I would look at the data to support and relate to my definition. For example, when my ex would ask me if I love her I have a sense that I do but I would take awhile to be fully and completely sure about my love. I would start with the vague knowledge that I love her but then I would look at my actions such as doing little things for her, making sure her life is comfortable and that she has everything she needed. All these little facts would add up and support my claim. When I'm truly sure that I do love her there's no need to say it I know and that's all that matters. What matter next is that I show it to her and prove to her without saying. 

Well that's all for now, I probably got off track somewhere if I do my apology.


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

Portal said:


> I don't quite know for sure so I'm just going off on what I feel is right but anyhow I think it has to do with not understanding the emotions. I believe that feelings are definitions of changes within you. From my experience, I have a vague image of how I "feel" however it's a blur image covered with thick smoke. I have a sense of how I feel at that given moment and it is good enough for me. If by some reason I were forced to share that feeling with someone I would have a hard time because I haven't been through that emotions long enough to have empirical facts to support how I feel.
> 
> Back when I was with my ex I love her as much as I still love her now. However, whenever she would ask me about how I feel I had a hard time telling her because I don't know how to reason my love out loud. It was quite hard to sit down and talk about a cause and effect when it comes to feelings for me. The whole "you did that and it makes me feel this" was hard because when an action occurred my mind just goes blank, and it actually takes me awhile to analyze the situation and my reactions to be able to develop a definition for the alteration that occurred within me. While developing my definition I would look at the data to support and relate to my definition. For example, when my ex would ask me if I love her I have a sense that I do but I would take awhile to be fully and completely sure about my love. I would start with the vague knowledge that I love her but then I would look at my actions such as doing little things for her, making sure her life is comfortable and that she has everything she needed. All these little facts would add up and support my claim. When I'm truly sure that I do love her there's no need to say it I know and that's all that matters. What matter next is that I show it to her and prove to her without saying.
> 
> Well that's all for now, I probably got off track somewhere if I do my apology.


This is why I was so confused about my type for so long. I can easily express my feelings, and it's not a problem at all. Sometimes it's even hard to make objective decisions because my feelings are so strong.


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## pretyhowtown (May 1, 2010)

There are too many feelings occurring at one time...and getting the description precisely right is terribly difficult. I usually have to link what I'm saying with a physical sensation to feel like I've gotten my point across.


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## Ayia (Feb 27, 2012)

I can't even explain my thoughts... fi sucks sometimes.


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

The King Of Dreams said:


> Yeah, Fi is difficult for me to explain. It takes me like 100 years to explain it right.


One ENFP recently tried to explain it to me, and he sounded like cryptic and medieval. I'm like, "Wtf are you talkin about dude?"


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

The Great One said:


> This is why I was so confused about my type for so long. I can easily express my feelings, and it's not a problem at all. Sometimes it's even hard to make objective decisions because my feelings are so strong.


Having a Feeling _preference_ entails being in more conscious control over the feelings. If you feel like they're getting in the way of Thinking (i.e. "objective decisions"), then it doesn't mean Feeling is preferred; but rather, more likely, it's less mature, from being unpreferred.


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

Eric B said:


> Having a Feeling _preference_ entails being in more conscious control over the feelings. If you feel like they're getting in the way of Thinking (i.e. "objective decisions"), then it doesn't mean Feeling is preferred; but rather, more likely, it's less mature, from being unpreferred.


In other words, it means I'm in an Ne<Fe loop with an under-developed Ti?


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## amatsuki (Apr 17, 2012)

It's because no one will understand the feeling, or they are unlikely to. There's a sense of time and place to what I feel, and it's combined with past experiences as well as physical feeling. Some feelings are almost holy, and I just find that no matter how I try to describe it, no one will understand the extent of it.

It's very frustrating


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## Knight_In_Rags (Mar 11, 2012)

The Great One said:


> Being an ENTP with a heavy Fe, I can ALWAYS put my feelings into words. However, it seems that a lot of Fi users can't. Can someone explain this to me?


_"Fi types are very close to their inner feelings, understand them, yet the objectivity of language prevents them from expressing this portion of their being"_ —@Psilo


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## lactosecat (May 29, 2011)

See, I never tell anybody about my feelings because 1) I don't know how to perfectly say it in words, 2) it's just plain awkward and dangerous to do so. I mean, I can feel the emotions heavily but when it comes to expressing them, I feel like words aren't really enough?


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## Xiong Mao (Apr 19, 2012)

Because the current system of language is not nearly as expansive and sophisticated enough for us to choose the words we need to properly express our complex Fi.


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## Xiong Mao (Apr 19, 2012)

Knight_In_Rags said:


> _"Fi types are very close to their inner feelings, understand them, yet the objectivity of language prevents them from expressing this portion of their being"_ —@_Psilo_


Well put. :wink:


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

INTJ_Eagle said:


> Because the current system of language is not nearly as expansive and sophisticated enough for us to choose the words we need to properly express our complex Fi.


Well put


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

Knight_In_Rags said:


> _"Fi types are very close to their inner feelings, understand them, yet the objectivity of language prevents them from expressing this portion of their being"_ —@Psilo


Wait, how is language objective?


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## Impact Calculus (Mar 29, 2012)

The Great One said:


> Wait, how is language objective?


The language itself is more of an outward criteria, so there is no real emotion tied into it, besides what you may or may not be trying to describe. Carl Jung notes that the introverted functions do not blend well with things that are outwardly objective because they are more of an unconscious consideration than of those with extroverted of that function. The posts above are true, also noting that people who are articulate in their feelings will be more likely to be less articulate of their thoughts for the same reason.


Edit:

The word fun is objective.

What the word fun means to you is subjective.


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

@Impact Calculus

Thank you for the imput. It's just that's hard for me to comprehend a world where I can not put things into words, flow charts, graphs, or some other type of explainable system.


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

The Great One said:


> @Impact Calculus
> 
> Thank you for the imput. It's just that's hard for me to comprehend a world where I can not put things into words, flow charts, graphs, or some other type of explainable system.


 I imagine Fi as an iceberg floating in dark deep blue water. What you see is only the tip, and there's no possible way of determining how deep it runs to the dark water. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's mysterious even to me how deep it runs, and how little I consciously express of it.


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## LimeDegree (Mar 6, 2012)

Inguz said:


> I imagine Fi as an iceberg floating in dark deep blue water. What you see is only the tip, and there's no possible way of determining how deep it runs to the dark water. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's mysterious even to me how deep it runs, and how little I consciously express of it.


So, when people grill Fi users about their inner feelings, which is the better metaphor for the intrusive questions:
1) A team of heavy equipment operators is drilling and blasting their way down
or
2) Your entire iceberg is being forcefully rolled (possibly dunking you/the upper eighth of the iceberg into the freezing water?)

I'm curious as to whether it feels more like permanent damage to the structure, or a disorienting change of environment.


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

LimeDegree said:


> So, when people grill Fi users about their inner feelings, which is the better metaphor for the intrusive questions:
> 1) A team of heavy equipment operators is drilling and blasting their way down
> or
> 2) Your entire iceberg is being forcefully rolled, (possibly dunking you/the upper eighth of the iceberg into the freezing water


 3) Pushing my boat in the direction of the iceberg. Forceful defense is taken as precaution. Letting down that defense feels risky.


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

Inguz said:


> I imagine Fi as an iceberg floating in dark deep blue water. What you see is only the tip, and there's no possible way of determining how deep it runs to the dark water. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's mysterious even to me how deep it runs, and how little I consciously express of it.


There's no Fi sonar?


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## LimeDegree (Mar 6, 2012)

Inguz said:


> 3) Pushing my boat in the direction of the iceberg. Forceful defense is taken as precaution. Letting down that defense feels risky.


I totally didn't get the person's relationship with the iceberg, but that bit helps a lot. Does this mean...that your boat is in a sea full of a bunch of different icebergs???


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

LimeDegree said:


> I totally didn't get what was going on there then, but that bit helps a lot. Does this mean...that your boat is in a sea full of a bunch of different icebergs???


I think that he was saying that the iceberg was a representative of emotions. He was saying that his emotions ran deep, he just didn't know how deep they ran. At least, that's what I got out of his post.


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## LimeDegree (Mar 6, 2012)

The Great One said:


> I think that he was saying that the iceberg was a representative of emotions. He was saying that his emotions ran deep, he just didn't know how deep they ran. At least, that's what I got out of his post.


It may seem I made a bit of a leap there, it's a habit of Ne. I was just really surprised at the separation between the Fi user and the Fi iceberg.


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

The Great One said:


> There's no Fi sonar?


 I wish there was. If I smell a scent that I haven't smelled for years and have strong emotional associations with then I don't just get nostalgic, I relive them and they surface again. It's really weird at times as it feels like I should have forgotten them, but I'm like in the past mentally instead of in the present.



LimeDegree said:


> I totally didn't get the person's relationship with the iceberg, but that bit helps a lot. Does this mean...that your boat is in a sea full of a bunch of different icebergs???


 Being controlled by it? Nah, it's just one iceberg, it's calm now but who knows how it looks tomorrow.



LimeDegree said:


> It may seem I made a bit of a leap there, it's a habit of Ne. I was just really surprised at the separation between the Fi user and the Fi iceberg.


 I personally find a bit of a separation between Me and My Feelings, but that may just be me. Nevertheless it's from that perspective that I can describe it best. But it may be due to me being Enneagram 5, not entirely sure on that part.


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

@Inguz


> I wish there was. If I smell a scent that I haven't smelled for years and have strong emotional associations with then I don't just get nostalgic, I relive them and they surface again. It's really weird at times as it feels like I should have forgotten them, but I'm like in the past mentally instead of in the present.


That sounds more like an Si function at work to me.


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

The Great One said:


> @Inguz
> 
> That sounds more like an Si function at work to me.


 I think it's some Fi/Ni stuff though.


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## HandiAce (Nov 27, 2009)

LiquidLight said:


> ...whereas Fe is "I love you and I'll make it your business."


Wow that sounds pretty harsh to me. For me, it'd be more like "I love you, but does that matter to you? Is my love for a person valid?". XD


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## shadowofambivalence (May 11, 2011)

Intoverted Feeling is almost as complicated as introverted intuiton, its all stuck in my head and the only thing I can do is contemplate about it all and write all this symbolic sort of stuff down and draw pictures and sometimes write it all down. I have a habit of baking cakes when i am happy.


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

Yes, Fi and Ni were the hardest for me to finally understand, and generally acknowledged as the most difficult to explain.
And then Ti can get confused with both of them, so it too took time to understand the concept of. 

So it's basically a thing of introverted functions being more difficult to explain and understand, because of the "deep" nature of them. Si is the one exception, because it's "concrete" or tangible, though internalized, and thus easier to understand.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

Because feelings move faster than thoughts, come in waves, varying intensities, mix and blend into each other and don't all have names. 

Trying to put my feelings into words is like trying to put an orgasm into words, you can give a general explanation of how it feels but someone who's never experienced that intensity isn't going to get it and words aren't going to do it justice. 

Then try explaining an orgasm as you're feeling it? :laughing: 

Yeah, most of us know how that works out! :wink:


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## Adasta (Nov 22, 2011)

Words do not have the capacity required to convey the meaning felt. Yet, since they are all we have, we have to attempt to choose the best words to describe something intangible.

Since INFPs are Fi+Ne, there really is no solidity at all. That's why you'll often hear us say "Yes, but you don't understand..."


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

I haven't had a chance to read through the whole thread, because it's loooong, so excuse me if I repeat anything, but I thought I'd toss my two cents in...

Personally, I find Fi easier to understand than Si & Ni, but that's likely because I am a Fi-dom. I think Jung did an outstanding job considering he is an "outsider".

To me, Fi is about making sense of everything in terms of what is important/good/necessary to being human, but using an inner gauge. The focus then is on perfecting ideas about what is most valuable to the human experience, and what is perfect is often _something that does not yet exist_. How can you communicate such a thing in a way others can see as clearly as you do?

Another issue, beyond even stating my feeling, is explaining what that gauge for it is & how I came to that conclusion - _justifying it_. My feelings (or the results of my evaluating) are often foreign to other people, but they want an explanation for why I feel that way & how I came to that conclusion. It's hard to describe the inner process because it's not even something many would consider valid. I don't use my personal emotional reactions or experience, although I don't discount them either. I have little means to connect them to something others will accept.

I don't directly approach stuff with that idea in mind though; I don't literally think "is this good in terms of being human?". It's very exploratory. If Ti is architectural, then Fi is like making an artistic sculpture. Just like an artist knows when something looks good, when it's conveying what it should, you know when you've reached a conclusion that is right for you & you know when you are conveying it properly to others.

This obviously leaves way more room for confusion from others, as they can interpret it entirely wrong; and a Fi type's "sculpture" can be completely unrecognizable to people, not because it's poorly done, but because people have no reference for it. It doesn't look like anything they've ever seen before. Ti types usually have concrete references for these "structures" they create, be it facts or whatever. Often this leads to invalidation of the feeling, something many Fi-dom experience heavily from an early age, and then you become reticent. You become extra concerned with accuracy & clarity of your expression, and you'll hold off until you find that perfect way.

The reason why art is soooooooo useful to the Fi-dom in expressing feelings is because it allows you to stir a similar feeling in other people. You have to give it some external approximation that others can relate to. Words CAN do this, but not often in direct communication. It has to be something deeper, like poetry or a story with characters & themes.

Consider this about Fi from Jung:



> However, the very fact that thoughts can generally be expressed more intelligibly than feelings demands a more than ordinary descriptive or artistic ability before the real wealth of this feeling can be even approximately presented or communicated to the world. If subjective thinking [Ti] can be understood only with difficulty because of its detachment, this is true in an even higher degree of subjective feeling. In order to communicate with others, introverted feeling has to find an external form not only acceptable to itself, but capable of also arousing parallel feeling in them. *Thanks to the relatively great inner (as well as outer) uniformity of human beings, it is actually possible to do this,* though the form acceptable to feeling is extraordinarily difficult to find so long as it is still mainly oriented to the fathomless store of primordial images.


It's kind of like, everyone has this inside themselves, but they don't live there like we do & so it's not so quickly recognized by them as a reality of the inner human landscape. When we're able to find some form that resonates with that same aspect people have within themselves, then we'll suddenly seem very articulate, and hey, even "wise". It's not just our feeling we're communicating then, but we've managed to hit on some truth about _people_. I'll tell you that I _experience_ Fi as "truth about _people_" as much if not _more so_ than "truth about _me_".

I think this is why INFPs are called "Harmonizers Clarifiers"; we spend a lot of time clarifying our own inner world in terms of feeling, harmonizing the feelings into a system of sorts that "makes sense" or has an order, and we can also do this _for others_. So even though it's HARD to express Fi a lot of the time, having to constantly be searching for the means to do it well makes you very creative. You often become GOOD at communicating feelings because you're forced to be extra articulate (in some mode; maybe not verbally, but visually or musically or whatever). It always just FEELS difficult in comparison to others, because it seems you spend a lot more time being picky about how to do it _just so_, and if you can't, then you'd rather not express at all.


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

Inguz said:


> I think it's some Fi/Ni stuff though.


Yeah, but thinking of past things, and how it relates to the present seems way more Si.


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

The Great One said:


> Yeah, but thinking of past things, and how it relates to the present seems way more Si.


 Why? It would be kinda awkward if I couldn't use past feelings as a frame of reference as ISFP.


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

Inguz said:


> Why? It would be kinda awkward if I couldn't use past feelings as a frame of reference as ISFP.


I'm not an authority on Se or Si, but I can tell you that Se is much more concerned with the present than the past.


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

The Great One said:


> I'm not an authority on Se or Si, but I can tell you that Se is much more concerned with the present than the past.


 Oh, this thread is about Si? I thought it was about Fi.


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

Inguz said:


> Oh, this thread is about Si? I thought it was about Fi.


It is about Fi. I'm just curious about all of your past experience talk. It sounds like you're using some Si mixed in.


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

The Great One said:


> It is about Fi. I'm just curious about all of your past experience talk. It sounds like you're using some Si mixed in.


 That was feelings triggered by association, not Si.


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

Inguz said:


> That was feelings triggered by association, not Si.


I can see that.


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## Jazz0101 (Sep 11, 2010)

I would say this USE to be true of me as a teenager and even into my 20s. I spent lots of time journaling to figure out how I felt about something or if I had a problem with someone..I had an ESFJ mother. However, I don't find I have as hard of a time putting my feelings into words anymore if it is necessary to communicate about a problem. I would say that it is definitely a skill I have had to learn and not something that comes naturally though..and probably after I have had a conversation in which I discuss my feelings such as in a relationship I generally have to go back to my journal and 'write it out' to come to some conclusions. but writing =words, so i dunno?


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## renna (Jan 28, 2011)

The Great One said:


> Being an ENTP with a heavy Fe, I can ALWAYS put my feelings into words. However, it seems that a lot of Fi users can't. Can someone explain this to me?



Here are the comparisons from "Gifts Differing" by Isabel Briggs Myer on Fe & Fi:

Fe: Determined chiefly by the objective factor, it serves to make the individual feel correctly, that is conventionally, under all circumstances.
Fi: Determined chiefly by the subjective factor, it serves as a guide to the emotional acceptance or rejection of various aspects of life.

Fe: It therefore adapts the individual to the objective situation.
Fi: It therefore adapts the objective situation to the individual, by the simple process of excluding or ignoring the unacceptable.

Fe: Depends wholly upon the ideals, conventions, and customs of the environment, and is extensive than deep.
Fi: Depends upon abstract feeling-ideals such as love, patriotism, religion, and loyalty, and is deep and passionate rather than extensive.

Fe: Its soundness and value do not lie in the individual, but outside int he collective ideals of the community, which are usually accepted without question.
Fi: Its soundness and value depend solely upon the individual himself, his inner wealth and his powers of appreciation and abstraction.

Fe: Its goal is the formation and maintenance of easy and harmonious emotional relationships with other people.
Fi:* Its goal is the fostering and protection of an intense inner emotional life*, and so far as possible the outer fulfillment and realization of the inner ideal.

Fe: Expresses itself easily and so shares itself with others, creating and arousing similar feeling, and establishing warm sympathy and understanding.
Fi: *May be too overpowering to be expressed at all, and so appear cold to the point of indifference, and be completely misunderstood.*

Fe: Danger lies in the tendency to suppress the personal standpoint entirely, and become a feeling process instead of a feeling personality, giving the effect of insincerity and pose.
Fi: Danger lies in tendency to find no objective fulfillment or realization, or outlet or expression and therefore to live upon sentiment, illusion and self pity.


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## The Purple Theory (Apr 4, 2012)

That's a good question.

I initially thought that my Fe was more developed than my Fi. It turned out that I was dominantly a Fi user.

As a Fi user, I have strong ideals. I'm rarely emotional but when I am, it is almost always related to disillusionment. If the beliefs that I have are constantly being proven false in the real world, then, I become frustrated. My Fe kicks in as I try to convince people. If that doesn't turn out well, I begin to reassess my ideals using my Fi and occasionally, my Ti. 

Being a Fi user equates to being stubborn. Most of the time, my head is in the clouds even if I appear otherwise. Not expressing my emotions is a defense mechanism. I rather keep silent than be proven wrong, be judged, or fall short with regard to society's standards.

If you want to hear the most emotional speech a Fi user can come up with, be hostile towards something he/she values the most. If that doesn't happen, then, be prepared to be at the other end of a cold shoulder.

Expecting a Fi user to put his/her feelings into words is like expecting a fish to breath out of the water. We just have different ways of channeling our emotions. I, for instance, express into writing what I can't express verbally. That's all.


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## cityofcircuits (Nov 8, 2010)

I second that @The Purple Theory


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## Andrew Wilson (Apr 20, 2012)

The Great One said:


> Being an ENTP with a heavy Fe, I can ALWAYS put my feelings into words. However, it seems that a lot of Fi users can't. Can someone explain this to me?


Don't know if anybody else has already answered this, because I have only read the OP so far and I am feeling lazy, besides the more perspectives the better right?
Your feelings work in the Extroverted (outer world) you get a natural charge out of communicating your feelings

Whereas my feeling work in the Introverted (inner world) I get a natural drain out of communicating my feelings


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## Adasta (Nov 22, 2011)

Andrew Wilson said:


> Whereas my feeling work in the Introverted (inner world) I get a natural drain out of communicating my feelings


That's also because it's your tertiary function, and you don't have strong interior understanding of how Fi operates.


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## Andrew Wilson (Apr 20, 2012)

Adasta said:


> That's also because it's your tertiary function, and you don't have strong interior understanding of how Fi operates.


This is true


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## DreamStepper (Feb 27, 2012)

This is the question I hate:
"How do you feel about me?"
My "boyfriend" asked me that. I ended up trying to choke out words. Then I gave up. 

My question is, when we are put on the spot, is there any way to help express our feelings?


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

For me, when I express my feelings, they always come off as shallower than what they actually are. Maybe it's because the Fe user's feelings are based on the external environment, so they wouldn't have problems expressing them externally? The Fi user's feelings emerge from internal values and principles, so translating them into an external context might take some contemplation and the usage of Te.


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## Frenetic Tranquility (Aug 5, 2011)

The Great One said:


> Being an ENTP with a heavy Fe, I can ALWAYS put my feelings into words. However, it seems that a lot of Fi users can't. Can someone explain this to me?


It's the low Ti, combined with highly subjective Fi. Basically, words were created for Ti. Objective speech. They fail to take into account subjective nuance, and therefore an Fi user will feel completely lost when trying to select a word and use, when they know the word doesn't fit quite right with the subjective feeling. It's tough to experience 15 versions of love, but only have one word for it.

I think most of us that use Ti and Fe tend to throw words around pretty liberally, hence why we are so open about them. This is primarily due to being out of touch with deeper internal emotions, them being unconscious. I love people in a shallow way fairly easily - I merely need to understand them, which is fairly simple for me. But deep, deep, nuanced love is a rarity. It's something that has only happened 2 or 3 times in my lifetime, and when it hits it's like a truck blindsiding me. As such, deep romantic love for me is like night and day, and I don't have a problem expressing it just because I don't have very many instances to compare it to. This would differ from a Fi user who experiences varying degrees of this deep love every day, and understands the nuance and levels of intensity through experience.


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