# Help me! (Advice on...advice!)



## 480 (Jan 22, 2009)

Been doing some thinking.

I've seen talk of drama.... when people reach out for help. Asking for help can come in many forms. It can be an outright admission of "hey... things are screwed up in my life, and I need a hand."

It can be "drama" in the form of tears, and threats or talk of suicide. It can be emotional withdraw. 

In fact asking for help can present in many different ways. And whatever we may think of a person's method... the end result is the same. They are asking for help.

But... that is not really the point of my thread. It's more about why people choose the methods of asking they do. And what it all means in the end. Even if it's just "drama".

If a person is really emotionally sensitive. It's really easy for people to say, "you're fine, get over it". It's really easy to get bored with, or frustrated with a person who is always sensitive about everything. Maybe you wish you could shake them, and tell them to grow up. It turns into "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" And the story has a point. But it also is kind of trite and overlooks something beyond a boy yelling wolf. The kid had a problem. In the story it was a minor one. He was bored. Didn't know how to entertain himself. Thought what he was doing was good clean fun. If he knew better, he did it anyway... which means he really didn't know better. Either way, if a person spends all their time crying wolf, or trying to sell drama--they have a problem. Because that is no way to live, they dont know how to or they dont want to live any differently. That-- is a problem. One for which they might need help. Something is wrong when someone feels that is how they must, or wish to live.

How did they get that way? I don't know for sure in every case. But I find knowledge and methods typically find their way into our heads because we learn them. And to learn something, something else teaches. Environment, other people, etc. It's a pretty standard and simple process. What would you do, if every time you've asked for help, you were told "you're fine" or "get over it" or "grow up"? Keep it to yourself? Find another way to ask for help when it got to much? Resort to more drastic measures? Look at what happens when you go to extremes. ACTION! A flurry of activity. People get really concerned. They scramble. They "act" like they care. You get "help". You learn... when you need something from someone... you have to be extreme; drastic--you have to resort to drama. You, have a problem. At a critical point in your life, you dealt with people who didn't know how to help you when you needed it, they were not self aware enough to tell you "I don't know how to help you" or perhaps they knew, and just didnt care. 

So what sparks our apathy? Why do we brush people off? Fear, of not knowing what to do? Being ignorant of how to help, we seek to push it away and ignore it and hope the problem or the person goes away? To busy? To many of your own problems?

I think if when people ask for help... if others were able to understand; I dont know how to deal with this, and that is what is making me irritated. Making me want to brush the person off. And then, realize they can help the person find someone who does know how to help. We might see less "drama". People will learn they can just speak plainly and get what they need. They wont grow up thinking in order to get attention and care from people they have to go to extremes. If people would just ask each other "why" a little more often, encourage people to dig inside themselves to find the root of what is bothering them. People would know how to ask for what they need, or want. Understand why things are the way they are.

If you really don't care, that's fine too. But at least know you don't care, and tell the person. "Hey, its not that I dont believe you. I just dont care". Then maybe they'll find someone who does.

Going to extremes like the boy who cries wolf is dishonest. Then again so is putting the problem back off on someone else and dismissing it as drama, and telling them they are fine. That's a lie. They're not fine, and chances are, it's not their fault. Pushing them off only leads to more extreme behavior, and keeps the cycle going. It teaches and reinforces bad behavior.

EDIT BY KEVINASWELL: Yoyoyoyo this is a good thread and offers shit ton of insight, so I'm gunna sticky it in the Advice section (appropriately). Maybe it'll get more hits then, too  LESS THAN TWO PAGES FOR A TOPIC THIS GOOD, COME ON PEOPLE.


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## TurranMC (Sep 15, 2009)

Excellent post. I really have nothing to add that wouldn't just be repeating what you've already said. Everything you said is very true.


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## PeacePassion (Jun 9, 2009)

I suppose the other side of this is the importance of knowing when you can help and when you can't, what you can do and what you can't, no matter how much you care. Trying to help when it's not your place to help, or if you start to get into the realms of trying to do for someone what they need to do for themselves, you end up hurting more than helping. I don't know what the answer is.


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## CreativeDreams (Oct 18, 2009)

PeacePassion said:


> I suppose the other side of this is the importance of knowing when you can help and when you can't, what you can do and what you can't, no matter how much you care. Trying to help when it's not your place to help, or if you start to get into the realms of trying to do for someone what they need to do for themselves, you end up hurting more than helping. I don't know what the answer is.


If you care, you can help. Help can come in many ways. You can help by saying nothing, or by smiling when you walk by a stranger. 
The problem is we are living in a world where people do not care anymore. Or they think about theirselves first. The only message that we are giving others is that it is NOT ok to ask for help. 
We are all so concerned about the big chaos that we avoid the little as much as possible.
So what do we do? We blow it up, because that is the only way to get some attention. 

Sorry this triggered a long rant inside me but I tried to summon it up. I hope I was not too brief.


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## decided (May 17, 2009)

I don't know if this is just an INFJ thing, but I am usually specific about who I ask for help. I go to people that will be most understanding of me, and best suited to give me what I need.

I really dislike my problems becoming a topic of conversation for lots of people. I like to resolve things quietly with those that are involved. For me, it feels like a drama when lots of people get involved. People are usually well-meaning, but sometimes they overreact. Sometimes the best thing they can do is just say something nice and leave it at that.


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## PeacePassion (Jun 9, 2009)

CreativeDreams said:


> If you care, you can help. Help can come in many ways. You can help by saying nothing, or by smiling when you walk by a stranger.
> The problem is we are living in a world where people do not care anymore. Or they think about theirselves first. The only message that we are giving others is that it is NOT ok to ask for help.
> We are all so concerned about the big chaos that we avoid the little as much as possible.
> So what do we do? We blow it up, because that is the only way to get some attention.
> ...


I agree one should do what they can do, appropriate to the situation. But it is possible to be well meaning but not really be helping at all, or even making a situation worse, which is what i was trying to refer to. Though I suppose you're right, that's hardly a problem compared to most people simply not caring at all.


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## WickedQueen (Jun 1, 2009)

I'll add Grim's thread with something I familiar with through my life experience. There are many kind of ways people asking for help.

*Venting*
There are 4 kinds of venting.
 

Venting for the purpose of venting. People who vent mostly just need someone to listen. They don't need any further help because they already know how to deal with it. All you have to do to help the person is simply by listening to them. The consequence is, if the person feels comfortable with you, there's a possibility that the person will come to you again... and again... and again... to vent. You'll be his/her venting trash can.
Venting for the purpose to gather allies. The person who vent feels/thinks that he/she is right and they have been treated unjusticely. So he/she will try to influence you to be on his/her side, in order to gather the allies to defend the person. There's a possibility that the person will lie or hide some of the truth from his/her vent to make you believe in him/her and agree to be his/her ally. This is where your objectivity will be tested. The decision you made will bring you into different consequences.
Venting for the purpose of seeking for attention. The person who did this doesn't really want a solution, or ear, or ally. He/she simply just need an attention. The more you feel sorry for his/her bad situation, the more he/she feels happy. This kind of person mostly are deceivers. Their real problem is lack of confidence. They hate themselves. What you should do is help him/her to get the confidence back, like compliment him/her when you feel/think the person is being honest. The consequence is, if you involve yourself too much, you'll reach some point where you can't separate the truth from the lies any longer. Everything is mixed up. When you have reached that point, I suggest you to get away from the person before he/she totally screw up with your mind.

Venting for the purpose of asking help. The sign is clear. He/she will ask questions like "What do you think?", "What should I do?", and "Will you help me?". This is where you decided whether or not you want to jump to help the person. If you can't, try to find someone else who could.

*Common* *Signs*
If the person doesn't vent or doesn't want to talk about his/her problem, there are common signs that you could see which shows that he/she is crying for help. Pay attention.


Feelings of helplessness and hopelessness. A bleak outlook. Nothing will ever get better and there’s nothing you can do to improve the situation.
Loss of interest in daily activities. No interest in or ability to enjoy former hobbies, social activities, or even sex.
Appetite or weight changes. Significant weight loss or weight gain.
Sleep changes. Either insomnia, especially waking in the early hours of the morning, or oversleeping.
Psychomotor agitation or retardation. Either feeling “keyed up” and restless or sluggish and physically slowed down.
Loss of energy. Feeling fatigued and physically drained. Even small tasks are exhausting or take longer.
Self-loathing. Strong feelings of worthlessness or guilt. Harsh criticism of perceived faults and mistakes.
Concentration problems. Trouble focusing, making decisions, or remembering things.
 Thoughts of death or suicide. Most people who are suicidal don't want to die, they just want to stop hurting. Take any suicidal talk or behavior seriously.
Other signs include anger, aggression, violence, reckless behavior, and substance abuse.


.


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## MrFixit (Oct 24, 2009)

I like this post, it asks deep rooted and important questions of individuals and society with regards to the notion of help. I myself am pretty good at getting to know everyone wherever i am, (work, social circles etc) making it easier to notice and understand peoples feelings when something is wrong and i will always want to ease their discomfort, partly because of my nature and partly because i have got to know them and so feel driven to because i care. 

However if i was randomly approached by a stranger asking for help who i did not know, trust or feel at ease with i think it would be harder for me to help them because id feel wary and uncertain. I'd still care on a human level, but i might not commit all that i could. I think this is because of comfort zones and unfortunately lots of people will dismiss people in need due to some sort of self-preservation notion that it might be dangerous somehow.


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## CreativeDreams (Oct 18, 2009)

PeacePassion said:


> I agree one should do what they can do, appropriate to the situation. But it is possible to be well meaning but not really be helping at all, or even making a situation worse, which is what i was trying to refer to. Though I suppose you're right, that's hardly a problem compared to most people simply not caring at all.


Ok I understand what you are saying. 
I do not see how this is possible, but I understand. 




MrFixit said:


> However if i was randomly approached by a stranger asking for help who i did not know, trust or feel at ease with i think it would be harder for me to help them because id feel wary and uncertain. I'd still care on a human level, but i might not commit all that i could. I think this is because of comfort zones and unfortunately lots of people will dismiss people in need due to some sort of self-preservation notion that it might be dangerous somehow.


You know, when I am shouting that people should care more, I can honestly tell you I would probably not have helped that man either. I see it like this.

You should help those that deserve your help. 
WickedQueen summons it up clearly. Not everybody deserves your help. 
There are 3 very different ways of helping. You can help someone before they need it. This is the easiest way of helping which everybody can do. Also you can do this to anyone.
Then you can help people with small problems. Nothing drastic or lifechanging. Usually friends, family, connections, ... People you like, or are ok with. 
I also include venting types 1 and 3 in this category. Types 1 you should confront. They will most likelly find somebody else to vent to but in the best case, they come to common sense.
Types 3 are a challenge. But you can really help these people by listening what is going on under the surface. You have to help them understand theirselves.
And then there are people that really need help. Help which can change a life. In this case you really need to know if you can help. Do not help in order to help. Sometimes no help is also help if help means worse.
This is why I understand, but do not see how it is possible.


(OMG This post took me like...forever.)


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## StephAnne04 (Oct 19, 2009)

Very interesting post, Grim. It made me think about things. Very cool.

Part of your post reminds me of a child throwing tantrums. I have a 4 year old daughter and man she used to throw the WORST tantrums. She did it for attention. I knew this. At the time, I was working all the time to support her and didn't spend enough time with her. Then things got better and I had time to spend with her, but the tantrums continued because it was a learned behavior. She knew from the past if she screamed loud and long enough, I would give to what she wanted. So I had to change things. When she started a tantrum, I would tell her when she was ready to stop screaming and wanted to talk to me I would be there to listen. And I ignored her tantrum until she calmed down. It took a while for her to learn that I meant that, but she did. And she would come and talk to me and I would tell her why I said no, or why she couldn't have what she wanted. I've always talked to her like an adult. She needs to know the why just like we do.

But your example made me realize that if I_ hadn't_ stopped these tantrums, thy would have carried over to adult life. She would have thrown 'tantrums' (and believe me I have seen MANY adults do this) until she gotten what she wanted instead of talking it out calmly and rationally. 

I think that maybe that is the learned behavior of some. They create drama because its the only way to get someone to listen. I do agree that people like that shouldn't just be ignored. They obviously have a problem that needs to be heard. If we can look past the_ way_ they are asking for it, then we can truly listen and give them what they need.

Again, aweosme post.


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## SeekJess (Nov 1, 2009)

Grim said:


> So what sparks our apathy? Why do we brush people off? Fear, of not knowing what to do? Being ignorant of how to help, we seek to push it away and ignore it and hope the problem or the person goes away? To busy? To many of your own problems?


What really sparks my apathy when it is the same dance, just a different song scenario. I feel like half of the time, people could fix their lives, or problems.. if they would just buckle down, and listen to some good ol'wisdom. I can't tell you how many times I have predicted in my head outcomes.. of how things will play out. And I warn people "hey don't do this.. you're going to fall on your face. I love you, please listen to me". And of course they don't listen, and the things that I predict come true.. I just keep my mouth shut because I am done exhausting the issue, and done trying to fix it, because I believe it is a lost cause. And I don't like telling people "I told you so!".

Sometimes I think people like being stuck in constant misery..


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## Evolution (Nov 1, 2009)

Excellent post. I can't say I disagree with any of it, very true stuff


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## Kevinaswell (May 6, 2009)

Nice work, Grim 

Very insightful, and appropriately ironically helpful 

I agree it's completely twisted that such a simple thing as seeking out help gets so bloated and distorted negatively by all the things you described....and it's a huge shame, isn't it?

It reminds me of when I preach about honesty to people. I think honesty is THE most important thing in regards to relating with other humans. I think it's so strange that the idea that everyone is an individual and unique in their own ways is so incredibly widespread throughout culture...yet somehow tactics like this arise when the individual needs to confront a negative aspect of themselves. 

It's incredibly self defeating...and I think it's incredibly interesting that it occurs at all. 

Like....WHY did the boy cry wolf? How is it his boredom, to him, justified such dishonest behavior? So far we got 1. Boy feels unfulfilled, and 2. because of such, is dishonest to fill the gap. 

I think this suggests a powerful underlying link between whether our life goals are accomplished or not, and our opinion of humanity in general. Because SOMEHOW.... experiencing discontentment justifies behaving in negative ways, which is undeniable on a global scale. 

Does this suggest a bitterness towards fellow humans, from within the condition of an unsatisfied experience? I think it does. 

What makes us feel bitter, usually? When we've been wronged. 

What has exactly wronged the boy who cried wolf here? He's just bored. No one did anything super terrible by any means. 

The world has wronged him. Existence has wronged him. Humanity has wronged him. Even though his boredom is an experience for himself alone, he only had a certain amount of options given his circumstance. So being human, he naturally did what he could.

This means that his dishonesty was not a reflection of his own character, but instead maybe of the many shortcomings of society as a whole and it's tendency to largely be inconsiderate to the individual (opting instead, for society as a whole. AKA, no one gave a shit to consider the fellas actions until a real wolf showed up, only to lead to accusations of dishonesty--which were appropriate, but not the end of the reasoning by a long shot). 

The lesson to walk away with:

Shortcomings from within an individual is a manifestation of the shortcomings of society itself, and displays of individual shortcomings (no matter what the tactic, bitching, venting, lying, suiciding) can be considered as a cry for universal unhappiness that the individual is experiencing on a personal level. They CAN'T fix their lives, because the problem doesn't originate from within them (in most cases).

Help society.


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## TurranMC (Sep 15, 2009)

Kevinaswell said:


> The lesson to walk away with:
> 
> Shortcomings from within an individual is a manifestation of the shortcomings of society itself, and displays of individual shortcomings (no matter what the tactic, bitching, venting, lying, suiciding) can be considered as a cry for universal unhappiness that the individual is experiencing on a personal level. They CAN'T fix their lives, because the problem doesn't originate from within them (in most cases).
> 
> Help society.


What a great post man. It should be its own thread its such a great post I think. I agree entirely.


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## 480 (Jan 22, 2009)

SeekJess said:


> Sometimes I think people like being stuck in constant misery..


No doubt... however a big part of the theme of my original post is the fact that this kind of mentality is a problem. No one should have to live like this. A person who prefers constant misery needs help. Instead of being a one time, acute problem... it's a chronic problem.

Alcoholics probably really enjoy getting drunk, should we then say they're not worth helping?


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## snail (Oct 13, 2008)

What if things actually are chronically more miserable for some people, and the need for emotional support is greater based on that increased capacity for suffering? People who don't cry out for help often have problems such as a fear of how others will perceive them, a belief that talking about the source of discontent will make it worse, or apathy. They know that others tire of having to fulfill their basic human duty of caring, so some pretend they don't hurt, just in case the person they confide in will make them hurt worse by invalidating their pain. The ones who do repeatedly open up about their feelings are then more likely to be treated like drama junkies, and to be looked down upon, because they are contrasted against the "normal" fearful people who keep their pain private and deal with it in isolation. Those who have the courage to be open about their emotional needs seem abnormal for it. Some fail to help others because of a corrupt moral philosophy that is based on selfishness. This causes them to think they are only responsible for themselves, and creates a sense of being separate and disconnected. Some fail to help because they can't relate to having strong emotional needs, and think the person who does is just overreacting to something that couldn't possibly hurt as much as he says. Some refuse to help because they have no answers and think it is only good to offer practical solutions. They devalue the support they could give by caring. Sometimes practical advice is an invalidation of feelings, and is destructive. When I am overwhelmed I need validation and comforting so I can restabilize enough to find my own answers, after I am no longer in pain. Instead, I get criticisms about how I need to change in order to fix things I am too distraught to even think about. My inability to process advice in this worsened state is misinterpreted as wallowing, and the hurtful helper becomes suspicious that I must not really want help so much as attention. Help=comforting, NOT advice.


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## 480 (Jan 22, 2009)

snail said:


> Help=comforting, NOT advice.



I can't say I agree with this. Food can be pretty comforting... but it's not actually much help for solving any problem but hunger. Drugs can dull the senses... that seems pretty comforting, but again doesn't help with issues at hand and can actually be part of the problem.

Not liking advice is ok. Detesting unwanted advice is ok. But invalidating advice as a whole because you don't like it or recognize it, or it has value to you; is no better than people invalidating your pain because they don't recognize it, like it, or it has no real value to them.

Now, if a constant supply of fuzzy hugs fixes whatever problem you perceive yourself to have, that's wonderful. If not... following some appropriate advice might help.


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## snail (Oct 13, 2008)

I was only speaking about my own needs, since Wicked Queen already offered the opposite opinion. I was disturbed when I saw her statement about how you can tell who really wants help by the way they ask for it. She seemed to falsely believe that the needs of those who seek solutions to external problems are more valid than the needs of people like me who seek the comfort to deal with internal problems first. It was important to reveal that her ideas do not apply universally, to clear up a common misunderstanding that is a frequent source of distress, and leads to much misjudgment. I wasn't saying that all comforting things were helpful, but when I am in pain, the first necessity is dealing with the feeling itself. Then I will be in the right state of mind to deal with the external problem. Comparing food and drugs with more appropriate forms of comfort like validating words is setting up the same kind of straw man as I would be setting up if I only described irrational or inapplicable advice when talking about whether advice is useful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StephAnne04 (Oct 19, 2009)

There is a time to give advice and a time to validate feelings. If a person comes to you when the wound is fresh, that is not the time to tell them everything they did wrong. You need to let that person get their feelings out. Let them know that feeling is ok to have. Just be there for moral support. After they are calm, if they come to you again, THEN give advice. Most people already know what they need to do (ok I do lol) but they just want someone to understand them and sympathize. If they do start to wallow (and I define this as ignoring practical advice for a long time after the fact) then you can get blunt. Kick their ass a bit To just feed their self pity will not help them. A good friend (in my head) comforts, but does not let their friend wallow in self pity. You need a mixture of both.


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## snail (Oct 13, 2008)

Who determines how long a person is allowed to work through feelings before he or she is supposed to be ready for a productive solution? We all heal at different rates, and as a slow healer, I know that one of the worst things a person can do is tell me to "get over it" before I have processed the feelings completely. It undoes everything and makes me have to start all over again, like ripping a scab off of a wound, making it bleed again. It's not anyone else's place to tell me "you should be better by now, and thinking about your feelings in order to work through them is just selfish wallowing." I believe "tough love" is both a misnomer and an oxymoron.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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