# SLE with high Ne ... possible?



## randomki11s (Nov 6, 2013)

So I'm an SLE - Ti ... and I think I have higher Ne than normal ... how does that work? ... ideas?

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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

No. Ne is in superego block for the SLE making it not only weak but also devalued. Maybe @itsme45 or @Diphenhydramine can explain.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

Nope its not possible since SLEs are Se base, which means Ne role, which means when Ne is active Se is inactive, when Se is active Ne is inactive.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

Re the signature - you can't re-order IME blocks. That's basically not the point of the system.

Also as FreeBeer pointed out, Base/Role are binaries, although it's not necessarily true that one has to spend all their time in the base. The idea about the role is that it's triggered for some reason so if you are around a lot of triggers then you might have to use it a lot, however - that would have obvious negative effects on your psyche.

If you think you're an SLE with "high" Ne you're probably just an ILE. The idea is that Se and Ne interpret information in directly clashing ways so one of them is suppressed and devalued, so the theory doesn't really have space for someone to be both psychologically healthy and to use as much of their role as they do their base. 

Note that SLE's intertype relation to ILE (a most similar type, but with the base/roles reverted) the relation is Business, which means that types of both Se and Ne base get along on a psychologically weak level - they get on well but don't care about each other that much. It seems unlikely for someone to have a powerful role compared to their base. If Socionics was a wide-ranging theory it could suggest schizophrenia (because the point of Business relations is that the people are too psychologically contrasting to care about one another personally or emotionally) but let's not go that far.


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## randomki11s (Nov 6, 2013)

Interesting. Maybe my Ne isn't as high as I thought, at least not in terms of socionics. I've tested SLE most of the time ... so do you have any socionics tests I could take for comparison? Could subtypes be affecting it?


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

Incidentally, the use of something isn't necessarily as useful as knowing how you feel about it. People are forced to receive information in ways they wouldn't themselves prefer all the time, but usually they hate it. Se base devalues Ne. How do you feel about it personally?


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## randomki11s (Nov 6, 2013)

Diphenhydramine said:


> Incidentally, the use of something isn't necessarily as useful as knowing how you feel about it. People are forced to receive information in ways they wouldn't themselves prefer all the time, but usually they hate it. Se base devalues Ne. How do you feel about it personally?


How would you feel about Ne? Or, what is your understanding of Ne? My understanding of it is probably flawed, so I figure I can use your's for a baseline.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

randomki11s said:


> Interesting. Maybe my Ne isn't as high as I thought, at least not in terms of socionics. I've tested SLE most of the time ... so do you have any socionics tests I could take for comparison? Could subtypes be affecting it?


The tests are a waste of time. They give people scores that aren't their type constantly, so who knows if the score you get is the right one.

Understand the system, the types, then decide your own type. 

What you think is a use of Ne could be something else, assuming you are actually Se dom. I don't know anything of you yet so I don't know.. but tests aren't the way to go, and as everyone said Se and Ne don't coexist as functional pieces together in a way that you'd really be 'using' both. 

I for example, have some Ti Ni loop going on that made me think I was an int/Ti Ne type. I realized I obviously use Ni though, not Ne. 

Some fundamentals:
http://techhouse.org/~nietzsche/


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## randomki11s (Nov 6, 2013)

Promethea said:


> ... Ti Ni loop going on that made me think I was an int/Ti Ne type. I realized I obviously use Ni though, not Ne ...


So are you saying Ti and Ni can resemble Ti and Ne? Don't think I'm following, can you explain that more?


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

randomki11s said:


> So are you saying Ti and Ni can resemble Ti and Ne? Don't think I'm following, can you explain that more?


I'd mistaken my Ni for Ne. 

I have seen things like people confusing Fe for Ne.. 

Various other examples I'm sure.

So.. its possible what you think is Ne, is something else.


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## randomki11s (Nov 6, 2013)

Ok, first off, thank you guys for your help ;D ...

... I believe I'm a great deal more Se than Ne. I think I do have a one-track mind for the most part and a lot of willpower. If I realize I want to get a cheeseburger for lunch, I'm darn well going to get one. I heard battlefield 4 was released, went straight to the store to buy it within the hour. That was the only thing I wanted from the mall, and I left right after I bought it. I don't have a problem willing myself to do things I don't like doing in order to accomplish what I want: last week I willed myself to plank 45 minutes (25 minutes more than I usually do) because I wanted to break 35 minutes and I didn't really care that it hurt like hell.

I realized recently that I like this girl, and I've devoted a large chunk of my free time to talking with her for an hour or more everyday, and now that I think about it, nearly all my effort at the moment is geared in one sense or another towards my interest in her. 

I have a list of goals on my desktop, and I've realized the amount of goals that is piling up kinda annoys me ... just deleted all but two in fact. In university, I think I do lack imagination when approaching problems and tend to go for the most straightforward way not caring as much about efficiency. 

... I think those things are very Se heavy right? ... Any additional input would be appreciated :happy: 



Promethea said:


> ... I have seen things like people confusing Fe for Ne ...


That might be it ... Can you give an example?


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

randomki11s said:


> Ok, first off, thank you guys for your help ;D ...
> 
> ... I believe I'm a great deal more Se than Ne. I think I do have a one-track mind for the most part and a lot of willpower. If I realize I want to get a cheeseburger for lunch, I'm darn well going to get one. I heard battlefield 4 was released, went straight to the store to buy it within the hour. That was the only thing I wanted from the mall, and I left right after I bought it. I don't have a problem willing myself to do things I don't like doing in order to accomplish what I want: last week I willed myself to plank 45 minutes (25 minutes more than I usually do) because I wanted to break 35 minutes and I didn't really care that it hurt like hell.
> 
> ...


Fe can often have those 'aha!' moments, where they just have a connection form from seemingly out of nowhere because they have the same broadness and expansiveness of Ne. Their focus has a far reach, and within that focus, there is information that manifests without the deliberateness of some other types. 

I knew an sle who made an interesting point about sle's. He said that because of his Se and Fe, he had this uncanny ability to size people up.. things about them would just click in his head. 

Its possible that some of this is going on and it seems like Ne. 

But, if it doesn't seem familiar, there are other possibilities.


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## randomki11s (Nov 6, 2013)

Promethea said:


> ... Its possible that some of this is going on and it seems like Ne ...


So, sizing people up. I think I do that, and the way I approach people changes based on that.



Promethea said:


> ... But, if it doesn't seem familiar, there are other possibilities ...


Oh? I want to get to the bottom of this once and for all lol XD.


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## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

randomki11s said:


> So I'm an SLE - Ti ... and I think I have higher Ne than normal ... how does that work? ... ideas?
> 
> [see signature]
> |
> ...


It doesn't!

At least not within the MBTI but I think also not within Jung's theories. There is a lot of debate about how Jung exactly saw this, but from what I understand from it, the dominant and auxiliary functions can not be of the same attitude.

So if you believe that your dominant function is Se and your auxiliary is Ne,.. that's not possible. Within the MBTI and Jung's theories it means you would never stop to reflect. The mere fact that you actually came up with your own theory/logic, though faulty, already shows you do reflect.


Using the building blocks of one system to build a new system seems like a bad idea. I'm not against different systems. The MBTI is just one system and Jung's theory is also just one theory. But if you really want to focus on this EEII idea, you need to figure out a completely new system that has it's own building blocks as well.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

randomki11s said:


> How would you feel about Ne? Or, what is your understanding of Ne? My understanding of it is probably flawed, so I figure I can use your's for a baseline.


As a starting point, this seems like a typical asker way of approaching conversation (asking a question for oneself, stating an answer to it instead of simply declaring one's opinion), suggesting you could be an asker in Reinin, thus resulting in the likely types of ILE, LII, EIE, IEI, SEE, ESI, LSE, SLI.


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## randomki11s (Nov 6, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> As a starting point, this seems like a typical asker way of approaching conversation (asking a question for oneself, stating an answer to it instead of simply declaring one's opinion), suggesting you could be an asker in Reinin, thus resulting in the likely types of ILE, LII, EIE, IEI, SEE, ESI, LSE, SLI.


haha, well ... I was confused about Ne, so I "declared" that my knowledge of Ne was faulty. I saw @Diphenhydramine was an SLE so I figure I'd ask straight up to get a straightforward answer. Are you saying an SLE can't ask questions? :wink: I have no idea how I'm supposed to ask a question by stating an opinion ... XD ...


Declaring (SLE) / Asking (ILE):
http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/dichotomies/r4t1

1. I monologue a lot. [Declaring] 
2. I don't see how I can ask questions by declaring anything. [Declaring]
3. I grunt/ nod silently [???]
4. I engage any one person, or a couple people (addressing one at a time) usually, even in presentations, I tend to focus on certain people scattered in the audience more than the audience as a whole. [Declaring]
5. I definitely talk assuming people are already paying attention. I say "hey" before I start conversations quite a lot. [Declaring]
6. Interrupt sometimes (I'd see a lull or opening, motion that I'm about to say something and start talking) [???]
7. I ask questions, but if what you're saying helps me to figure out by myself, I'll catch your attention with an "ohh i see, so ..." etc. [???]
8. I mainly ask questions specifically to get an answer. Even just making conversation I ask people questions that end up giving me answers i.e. asking someone about their work I only ask specifics I'm actually curious about finding out. [Declaring]


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## randomki11s (Nov 6, 2013)

Other Reinin Dichotomies that were decisive and unambiguous...

Strategic (SLE) / Tactical (ILE):
Socionics Dichotomies: R2t4

1. I always have a goal in mind. [Strategic]
2. I change how I approach things all the time. If it doesn't get me where I want to go i.e. results, I'm trying something else. But the goal doesn't change. [Strategic]
3. I hate giving up. Having too many options doesn't help me, I just pick one and go. [Strategic]


Results (SLE) / Process (ILE)
Socionics Dichotomies: R3t4

1. Randomly: i.e. homework problems. [Results]
2. I have a single goal. I'd rather do everything I can at the same time. [Results]
3. End results are key.[Results]
4. Searching for answers on the internet: I ctrl-F stuff and definitely dont bother readng the whole thing.[Results]
5. I always check to see if my answer is correct first, that's what I care most about.[Results]


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

The important ones are: Merry/Serious, Judicious/Decisive and Aristocratic/Meritocratic (they're usually easier than the others, too.) 

Alpha quadra types are Merry, Judicious, and Democratic - Betas are Merry, Decisive and Aristocratic.

Briefly:

Merry/Serious: 
Merry types have clear delineations between "emotional" and "non-emotional" backgrounds. Serious types are unable to do this and perceive everything as one, objective thing, whereas reality folds between subjective states for Merry types. 

Judicious/Decisive
This hypothesises that people are either "demobilised" or "mobilised" - not ready or ready for action. The switch between these is the conscious factor of Judicious/Decisive. Judicious types must put conscious effort to mobilise in preparation for a thing, whereas Decisive types must put conscious effort into relaxing and unwinding. 

Aristocracy/Democracy
A tendency to group people and material assets under categorisations, as opposed to weighing each on its individual values.

I can't tell you anything about yourself, unfortunately. However SLE and ILE is not too hard of a difference to work out, when you come around to it.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

randomki11s said:


> haha, well ... I was confused about Ne, so I "declared" that my knowledge of Ne was faulty. I saw @Diphenhydramine was an SLE so I figure I'd ask straight up to get a straightforward answer. Are you saying an SLE can't ask questions? :wink: I have no idea how I'm supposed to ask a question by stating an opinion ... XD ...
> 
> 
> Declaring (SLE) / Asking (ILE):
> ...


Asking/declaring are two different ways of holding a conversation. Declaring types tend to turn everything into statements. I'm a declaring types for example, so what you see here is that I am stating this as it seems like a form of fact. There is a simple clarity to declaring types. What you did in your previous post was a perfect example of how askers engage in conversation, something I have recently observed a lot in my SEE friend. She may for example state things when asked a question, "What should I tell you about? Maybe I should tell you about X" and then proceed to explain X. 

The important thing to differentiate between is that asking/declaring has nothing to do with asking questions per se, but it's a specific way of holding a conversation. 

Anyway, I actually kind of misread your post, likely because I was tired, because it appeared you were writing to yourself rather than directing it to Diphenhydramine for some reason. However, I might honestly not rule out Fe ego for you because there is just something that irks me out.


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## itsme45 (Jun 8, 2012)

randomki11s said:


> So I'm an SLE - Ti ... and I think I have higher Ne than normal ... how does that work? ... ideas?


Which test gave you that function order in your signature? That matters more than you'd think!

And no it doesn't really work according to theory. In reality, maybe someone's brain is just like that. Or maybe just Se quick mind is mistaken for Ne.

Tell me what you think Ne is, what is it in yourself that you see as high Ne? Or is it just the test result in your signature? If it's just that....well.... but do let us know.




randomki11s said:


> (...) I have a list of goals on my desktop, and I've realized the amount of goals that is piling up kinda annoys me ... just deleted all but two in fact. In university, I think I do lack imagination when approaching problems and tend to go for the most straightforward way not caring as much about efficiency.
> 
> ... I think those things are very Se heavy right? ...


For godssake why are you even considering ILE? 

Cool though you're so willing to admit you lack imagination for university tasks  I prefer to say, I do these things from IQ instead of whatever the stupid creativity tests measure. (And I do have imagination for other things)




Diphenhydramine said:


> Re the signature - you can't re-order IME blocks. That's basically not the point of the system.


Maybe that's not the point of the system but reality > system, not system > reality. I'm not going to exclude someone like that exists until I know why exactly it cannot exist. (I do not find this theory deep enough to properly exclude that.)




> Also as FreeBeer pointed out, Base/Role are binaries, although it's not necessarily true that one has to spend all their time in the base. The idea about the role is that it's triggered for some reason so if you are around a lot of triggers then you might have to use it a lot, however - that would have obvious negative effects on your psyche.


For me that's true, btw. I was talking to some guy yesterday who's a strong Ne ego type and I was able to maintain the conversation but god yes it wasn't as effortless lol. Ducking all that Ne shit.




> If you think you're an SLE with "high" Ne you're probably just an ILE. The idea is that Se and Ne interpret information in directly clashing ways so one of them is suppressed and devalued, so the theory doesn't really have space for someone to be both psychologically healthy and to use as much of their role as they do their base.


Why does ILE have to be more likely? Because then, you see it would be an ILE with high Se... So that idea of preferring ILE choice is not making any sense to me here.




> Note that SLE's intertype relation to ILE (a most similar type, but with the base/roles reverted) the relation is Business, which means that types of both Se and Ne base get along on a psychologically weak level - they get on well but don't care about each other that much. It seems unlikely for someone to have a powerful role compared to their base. If Socionics was a wide-ranging theory it could suggest schizophrenia (because the point of Business relations is that the people are too psychologically contrasting to care about one another personally or emotionally) but let's not go that far.


Socionics has got nowhere near enough depth about the brain's workings to even start considering it in relation to schizophrenia.




Promethea said:


> Fe can often have those 'aha!' moments, where they just have a connection form from seemingly out of nowhere because they have the same broadness and expansiveness of Ne. Their focus has a far reach, and within that focus, there is information that manifests without the deliberateness of some other types.


That doesn't quite make a lot of sense to me; Any extraverted function is broad and expansive, so can Se or Te do the same then?

I always thought "aha" moments were Ni, though.




ephemereality said:


> As a starting point, this seems like a typical asker way of approaching conversation (asking a question for oneself, stating an answer to it instead of simply declaring one's opinion), suggesting you could be an asker in Reinin, thus resulting in the likely types of ILE, LII, EIE, IEI, SEE, ESI, LSE, SLI.


I don't believe in Reinin that much... I *seem* Asker 50% of the time, Declarer the other 50% of the time. 




randomki11s said:


> Declaring (SLE) / Asking (ILE):
> Socionics Dichotomies: R4t1
> 
> 1. I monologue a lot. [Declaring]
> ...


Haha, just saying, I relate to some of this. I'm Declaring on points 1, 2, 4, 5, sometimes 6, 7, 8. Asking on point 3 because I find I absolutely need to receive such signals from others so I do it too because I assume others need it too. As for point 6, I can interrupt then go on, I will always return later though, need closure. 

But it's my tendency to ask a lot of questions to understand something that specifically makes me look like an Asker type quite often. Most of those questions have the goal of wanting to understand something specifically and I will get tired of asking so many questions after a while so that's actually Declaring but I've seen myself forget at times the goal temporarily and only return later for the needed closure. 

I have a friend who's quite crazy about asking, always asking. I can keep up with her, answering all the questions, I can go on forever, why not, it's just a bit effortful.




Diphenhydramine said:


> The important ones are: Merry/Serious, Judicious/Decisive and Aristocratic/Meritocratic (they're usually easier than the others, too.)
> 
> Alpha quadra types are Merry, Judicious, and Democratic - Betas are Merry, Decisive and Aristocratic.
> 
> ...


Right, it's not hard to differentiate ILE from SLE once you understand what Ne is or what the lack of Ne is. 

Btw, how do you analyse procrastination in terms of Judicious/Decisive dichotomies?

I still have an issue with clearly placing myself under either Aristocrat or Democrat...

Merry/Serious was absolutely easy though. Note though that what you wrote here is only one side of that dichotomy, the Fe/Fi side; the other side is Ti/Te-related more, about subjectivity vs objectivity. Ti types will be okay with relative truths of the situation, Te types nope. Supposedly.




ephemereality said:


> Anyway, I actually kind of misread your post, likely because I was tired, because it appeared you were writing to yourself rather than directing it to Diphenhydramine for some reason. However, I might honestly not rule out Fe ego for you because there is just something that irks me out.


Maybe it's the Fe mobilizing; types who don't value it, would be irked by it.


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## randomki11s (Nov 6, 2013)

itsme45 said:


> ... Which test gave you that function order in your signature? ...
> 
> ...Tell me what you think Ne is, what is it in yourself that you see as high Ne? Or is it just the test result in your signature? ...


Look up towards the very top of the page, the vial/test-tube shaped icon thing. Found out about it recently. I don't think its very accurate, but the fact that Ne showed up was why I asked in the first place.



itsme45 said:


> ... And no it doesn't really work according to theory. In reality, maybe someone's brain is just like that. Or maybe just Se quick mind is mistaken for Ne ...


Yea, I saw that it lacked cohesion with the theory. Yes, I think I have a very quick mind, I like to debate and I'm good at debates. My impression of Ne is very hazy, so forgive me if I spout nonsense haha XD. 

So ... quick thought processes. I have an SEE brother and while he is pretty smart (gets way better grades than I did when I was his age), I can dance circles around him in pretty much any argument. When something is being explained to me, I'm thinking along (keeping up logically) and sometimes understand the concept before the person is finished explaining (not sure if it's just fast-logic or intuition or a combination of the two). I sometimes use analogies or allude to similar ideas/past-experiences/obvious-truths when I explain stuff to people. I make analogous connections between new ideas and what I know. I'm intellectually curious and google/wiki whatever specific thing I am curious about atm. That's my impression of how I think Ne manifests. Feel free to dissect it, I just want to get to the bottom of it.



itsme45 said:


> ... Cool though you're so willing to admit you lack imagination for university tasks  I prefer to say, I do these things from IQ instead of whatever the stupid creativity tests measure. (And I do have imagination for other things) ...


Well I have a decent imagination otherwise, what I meant was in terms of thinking laterally (outside of the box ... I'm majoring in Mechanical Engineering, so I'm trying to make myself thing outside the box more XD but yea ...) I find myself going for the most obvious straightforward route ... not sure how to explain this ... I have trouble with math proofs ... say you have to integrate (1/sinx): it's completely garbage to me because it requires you to use sin(2t) = 2sin(t)cos(t) ... and throw a tan(t) or something in there ... point is ... all I ever see is a sin(x) ... (I see exactly what's there and only what's there, and rarely see anything past that). Those kinds of things make me think I'm probably not an intuitive. 



itsme45 said:


> ... Maybe that's not the point of the system but reality > system, not system > reality. I'm not going to exclude someone like that exists until I know why exactly it cannot exist. (I do not find this theory deep enough to properly exclude that.)... Why does ILE have to be more likely? Because then, you see it would be an ILE with high Se... So that idea of preferring ILE choice is not making any sense to me here ...


Yea that's exactly why I didn't rule out ILE altogether.



itsme45 said:


> ... Asking on point 3 because I find I absolutely need to receive such signals from others so I do it too because I assume others need it too ...
> 
> ...But it's my tendency to ask a lot of questions to understand something that specifically makes me look like an Asker type quite often ...


... See, I don't really understand why 3 is even a thing! Cuz it's conversation-101 to acknowledge what the other person is saying, and I do it because i.e. in an interview you're not going to get a job if you just stare at them blankly and don't actively engage the other person. I've done the staring/quiet stuff before, doesn't work! :laughing: Same applies to regular conversations ... 

... I ask a ton of questions, because I WANT specific ANSWERS to what I ask, and you can't get answers if you sit around twiddling your thumbs! Most of my conversations start with me asking a specific question (I have a goal in mind of getting an answer to that question). Even when I start conversations just for the sake of conversing, I ask specific questions to find out more about them, because my "goal" is to know more about the person. I wouldn't bother talking to people if I could read their minds! ;D


... On a related note, you consider yourself an SLE-Ti ... I think I am also, but I'm not positive ... what sites (that you think is reliable) should I be looking at?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

@itsme45 I don't notice it as strongly in SLEs because Ti suppresses the behavior. In general though, there is something about the op's cognition that irks me and it makes me hesitant to see SLE. I am honestly not sure I see the Se base here. 

As for function test results, I used to think like you but I have ruled out them as bullshit because there is simply no way a function test can even humanly accurately test you on functions. I can get INFP like on Nardi's test because I score like an idiot on Fi and one reason is because his Ni definition is shit. Function tests rely on you being able to actually tell who you are in an objective sense which might be impossible, and that the test itself is actually accurate. None of these can apply and the latter because of the nature of functions. So he took a test and got high on Se and Ne. What this says to me is that he just happened to fit that particular test author's definition of the functions and on the Internet they are more often than not extremely lacking.

In other words it means nothing.


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## itsme45 (Jun 8, 2012)

randomki11s said:


> Look up towards the very top of the page, the vial/test-tube shaped icon thing. Found out about it recently. I don't think its very accurate, but the fact that Ne showed up was why I asked in the first place.


Ah, that one... It's actually an MBTI test, not socionics. Though the Ne in it isn't too bad for socionics.


How did you interpret the following questions in it?

I see the world as...
1) ...a bundle of possibilities to be explored and unraveled.

Which of these qualities best helps you understand the world?
14) The ability to see and pursue new possibilities.

I get the most energy when...
23) I'm free to explore new possibilities in my life.


How true are the following statements?
28) I don't like to waste time speculating about things that may or may not exist.






> Yea, I saw that it lacked cohesion with the theory. Yes, I think I have a very quick mind, I like to debate and I'm good at debates. My impression of Ne is very hazy, so forgive me if I spout nonsense haha XD.
> 
> So ... quick thought processes. I have an SEE brother and while he is pretty smart (gets way better grades than I did when I was his age), I can dance circles around him in pretty much any argument. When something is being explained to me, I'm thinking along (keeping up logically) and sometimes understand the concept before the person is finished explaining (not sure if it's just fast-logic or intuition or a combination of the two). I sometimes use analogies or allude to similar ideas/past-experiences/obvious-truths when I explain stuff to people. I make analogous connections between new ideas and what I know. I'm intellectually curious and google/wiki whatever specific thing I am curious about atm. That's my impression of how I think Ne manifests. Feel free to dissect it, I just want to get to the bottom of it.


Well okay this question will be pretty simplistic, but, what do you enjoy more, going out to get your Se stuff or making these connections between ideas in the fashion as above?

I don't really like making connections in this way, I like logical connections and reject most analogies as superficial in a logical sense. Depends. That's where our thinking processes seem to differ.

I'm also intellectually curious but that's not exclusive to Ne 

Btw SEE is Se base so still supposed to have a quick mind but maybe not when they'd need to dial into Ti. Sorry, that sounds like a terrible stereotype there. But clearly this is something independent of intellectual ability...




> Well I have a decent imagination otherwise, what I meant was in terms of thinking laterally (outside of the box ... I'm majoring in Mechanical Engineering, so I'm trying to make myself thing outside the box more XD but yea ...) I find myself going for the most obvious straightforward route ... not sure how to explain this ... I have trouble with math proofs ... say you have to integrate (1/sinx): it's completely garbage to me because it requires you to use sin(2t) = 2sin(t)cos(t) ... and throw a tan(t) or something in there ... point is ... all I ever see is a sin(x) ... (I see exactly what's there and only what's there, and rarely see anything past that). Those kinds of things make me think I'm probably not an intuitive.


Yeah, I don't do the lateral thinking much, I just go where my logic leads me. It can look pretty creative in the end but it's done out of IQ if you know what I mean.

Funnily enough, I don't have that problem with maths stuff. I do only see what's there but I also have the sense of knowing what direction to go for the solution. I dunno, maybe not function related. -.- 

Straightforward route is good though.




> Yea that's exactly why I didn't rule out ILE altogether.


Or SLE  at this point anyway...




> ... See, I don't really understand why 3 is even a thing! Cuz it's conversation-101 to acknowledge what the other person is saying, and I do it because i.e. in an interview you're not going to get a job if you just stare at them blankly and don't actively engage the other person. I've done the staring/quiet stuff before, doesn't work! :laughing: Same applies to regular conversations ...
> 
> ... I ask a ton of questions, because I WANT specific ANSWERS to what I ask, and you can't get answers if you sit around twiddling your thumbs! Most of my conversations start with me asking a specific question (I have a goal in mind of getting an answer to that question). Even when I start conversations just for the sake of conversing, I ask specific questions to find out more about them, because my "goal" is to know more about the person. I wouldn't bother talking to people if I could read their minds! ;D


Haha yeah, I get what you mean.




> ... On a related note, you consider yourself an SLE-Ti ... I think I am also, but I'm not positive ... what sites (that you think is reliable) should I be looking at?


Subtypes are on wikisocion and there's something about them on the16types site as well. (Let me know if you can't find the relevant pages)

I went for Ti subtype for several reasons; lots of Ti; also because I relate more to weak-ish Ne than SLE-Se would. According to description anyway. Though it doesn't help the case for Fi much -.- 

Other than that, I can sometimes look like Se subtype too. Some people don't even subscribe to the subtypes system. For me it's more like the Ti subtype fits me more in general.


Why do you not relate so much to Se subtype?




ephemereality said:


> @_itsme45_ I don't notice it as strongly in SLEs because Ti suppresses the behavior. In general though, there is something about the op's cognition that irks me and it makes me hesitant to see SLE. I am honestly not sure I see the Se base here.


Are you thinking EIE then by any chance? 

I was thinking, Se could be there but some stuff could fit Ti superid and less emphasis on Se too. Not sure.




> As for function test results, I used to think like you but I have ruled out them as bullshit because there is simply no way a function test can even humanly accurately test you on functions. I can get INFP like on Nardi's test because I score like an idiot on Fi and one reason is because his Ni definition is shit. Function tests rely on you being able to actually tell who you are in an objective sense which might be impossible, and that the test itself is actually accurate. None of these can apply and the latter because of the nature of functions. So he took a test and got high on Se and Ne. What this says to me is that he just happened to fit that particular test author's definition of the functions and on the Internet they are more often than not extremely lacking.
> 
> In other words it means nothing.


Oh maybe you misread what I posted, I was actually dismissive of the idea of deciding functions based just on one function test. That particular one the OP took is especially terrible it being an MBTI test.


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## itsme45 (Jun 8, 2012)

randomki11s said:


> Look up towards the very top of the page, the vial/test-tube shaped icon thing. Found out about it recently. I don't think its very accurate, but the fact that Ne showed up was why I asked in the first place.


Ah, that one... It's actually an MBTI test, not socionics. Though the Ne in it isn't too bad for socionics.


How did you interpret the following questions in it?

I see the world as...
1) ...a bundle of possibilities to be explored and unraveled.

Which of these qualities best helps you understand the world?
14) The ability to see and pursue new possibilities.

I get the most energy when...
23) I'm free to explore new possibilities in my life.

How true are the following statements?
28) I don't like to waste time speculating about things that may or may not exist.




> Yea, I saw that it lacked cohesion with the theory. Yes, I think I have a very quick mind, I like to debate and I'm good at debates. My impression of Ne is very hazy, so forgive me if I spout nonsense haha XD.
> 
> So ... quick thought processes. I have an SEE brother and while he is pretty smart (gets way better grades than I did when I was his age), I can dance circles around him in pretty much any argument. When something is being explained to me, I'm thinking along (keeping up logically) and sometimes understand the concept before the person is finished explaining (not sure if it's just fast-logic or intuition or a combination of the two). I sometimes use analogies or allude to similar ideas/past-experiences/obvious-truths when I explain stuff to people. I make analogous connections between new ideas and what I know. I'm intellectually curious and google/wiki whatever specific thing I am curious about atm. That's my impression of how I think Ne manifests. Feel free to dissect it, I just want to get to the bottom of it.


Well okay this question will be pretty simplistic, but, what do you enjoy more, going out to get your Se stuff or making these connections between ideas in the fashion as above?

I don't really like making connections in this way, I like logical connections and reject most analogies as superficial in a logical sense. Depends. That's where our thinking processes seem to differ.

I'm also intellectually curious but that's not exclusive to Ne 


Earlier you said:



> I think I do have a one-track mind for the most part


But what you said here doesn't sound like a one-track mind. How can you reconcile the two?




> I have a list of goals on my desktop, and I've realized the amount of goals that is piling up kinda annoys me ... just deleted all but two in fact.


Another comment on this. You didn't really care about doing those goals if you deleted them based on the length of the list? Not sure how that fits with Se base though it doesn't have to exclude it.


Btw SEE is Se base so still supposed to have a quick mind but maybe not when they'd need to dial into Ti. Sorry, that sounds like a terrible stereotype there. But clearly this is something independent of intellectual ability...




> Well I have a decent imagination otherwise, what I meant was in terms of thinking laterally (outside of the box ... I'm majoring in Mechanical Engineering, so I'm trying to make myself thing outside the box more XD but yea ...) I find myself going for the most obvious straightforward route ... not sure how to explain this ... I have trouble with math proofs ... say you have to integrate (1/sinx): it's completely garbage to me because it requires you to use sin(2t) = 2sin(t)cos(t) ... and throw a tan(t) or something in there ... point is ... all I ever see is a sin(x) ... (I see exactly what's there and only what's there, and rarely see anything past that). Those kinds of things make me think I'm probably not an intuitive.


Yeah, I don't do the lateral thinking much, I just go where my logic leads me. It can look pretty creative in the end but it's done out of IQ if you know what I mean.

Funnily enough, I don't have that problem with maths stuff. I do only see what's there but I also have the sense of knowing what direction to go for the solution. I dunno, maybe not function related. -.- 

Straightforward route is good though.




> Yea that's exactly why I didn't rule out ILE altogether.


Or SLE  at this point anyway...




> ... See, I don't really understand why 3 is even a thing! Cuz it's conversation-101 to acknowledge what the other person is saying, and I do it because i.e. in an interview you're not going to get a job if you just stare at them blankly and don't actively engage the other person. I've done the staring/quiet stuff before, doesn't work! :laughing: Same applies to regular conversations ...
> 
> ... I ask a ton of questions, because I WANT specific ANSWERS to what I ask, and you can't get answers if you sit around twiddling your thumbs! Most of my conversations start with me asking a specific question (I have a goal in mind of getting an answer to that question). Even when I start conversations just for the sake of conversing, I ask specific questions to find out more about them, because my "goal" is to know more about the person. I wouldn't bother talking to people if I could read their minds! ;D


Haha yeah, I get what you mean.




> ... On a related note, you consider yourself an SLE-Ti ... I think I am also, but I'm not positive ... what sites (that you think is reliable) should I be looking at?


Subtypes are on wikisocion and there's something about them on the16types site as well. (Let me know if you can't find the relevant pages)

I went for Ti subtype for several reasons; lots of Ti; also because I relate more to weak-ish Ne than SLE-Se would. According to description anyway. Though it doesn't help the case for Fi much -.- 

Other than that, I can sometimes look like Se subtype too. Some people don't even subscribe to the subtypes system. For me it's more like the Ti subtype fits me more in general.


Why do you not relate so much to Se subtype?




ephemereality said:


> @_itsme45_ I don't notice it as strongly in SLEs because Ti suppresses the behavior. In general though, there is something about the op's cognition that irks me and it makes me hesitant to see SLE. I am honestly not sure I see the Se base here.


Are you thinking EIE then by any chance? 

I was thinking, Se could be there but some stuff could fit Ti superid and less emphasis on Se too. Not sure.




> As for function test results, I used to think like you but I have ruled out them as bullshit because there is simply no way a function test can even humanly accurately test you on functions. I can get INFP like on Nardi's test because I score like an idiot on Fi and one reason is because his Ni definition is shit. Function tests rely on you being able to actually tell who you are in an objective sense which might be impossible, and that the test itself is actually accurate. None of these can apply and the latter because of the nature of functions. So he took a test and got high on Se and Ne. What this says to me is that he just happened to fit that particular test author's definition of the functions and on the Internet they are more often than not extremely lacking.
> 
> In other words it means nothing.


Oh maybe you misread what I posted, I was actually dismissive of the idea of deciding functions based just on one function test. That particular one the OP took is especially terrible it being an MBTI test.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

itsme45 said:


> Are you thinking EIE then by any chance?
> 
> I was thinking, Se could be there but some stuff could fit Ti superid and less emphasis on Se too. Not sure.


Not sure what I think, but something doesn't add up to me about SLE. There is a striking difference in quality and eagerness between Fe in ego and super-id. Especially some of your exchanges showed a lot of Fe from the OP that didn't seem to behave the way it does when it is suggestive or mobilizing since there was no "activation" trigger from either of you. It came out randomly and spontaneously but it wasn't awkward (the way I read it). Another thing I noticed is that the OP doesn't seem to judge my posts based on logical content but mere social participation in this thread? He's doing the behavior I described to Diph earlier where I have noticed Fe bases tending to thank posts for you merely posting and contributing, something I haven't quite seen Ti ego types do either. I am personally not ruling out alpha. 



> Oh maybe you misread what I posted, I was actually dismissive of the idea of deciding functions based just on one function test. That particular one the OP took is especially terrible it being an MBTI test.



Ok sorry lol, I shouldn't read people's posts on a small phone past 4 AM!


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## randomki11s (Nov 6, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> ... Especially some of your exchanges showed a lot of Fe from the OP that didn't seem to behave the way it does when it is suggestive or mobilizing since there was no "activation" trigger from either of you. It came out randomly and spontaneously but it wasn't awkward (the way I read it). Another thing I noticed is that the OP doesn't seem to judge my posts based on logical content but mere social participation in this thread?
> 
> ... He's doing the behavior I described to Diph earlier where I have noticed Fe bases tending to thank posts for you merely posting and contributing, something I haven't quite seen Ti ego types do either. I am personally not ruling out alpha ...


... Oh I can assure you I'm not an Fe Dom ... I definitely judge your posts by logical content (notice that I pointed out what I thought was flawed in a previous reply) ... If i don't think it makes sense sometimes i will just move on to the next idea, I just find being a dick about it doesn't get me anywhere. 

... Have you ever read "Getting More: How to Negotiate to Achieve Your Goals in the Real World" - Stuart Diamond ? ... Being courteous/friendly/appreciative gets results, so I force myself to use more Fe on a daily basis.

... Also, do SLE's not have any charm? Is that what you're saying? ;D



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

I _highly_ doubt @randomki11s is an EIE. 


In regards to the original question:

You cannot be strong in Se and Ne at the same time, as they are rejected alternatives to each other. Se doms essentially focus on Se at the total expense of Ne, and likewise with Ne doms and Se. An SLE would see Ne as having value in some situations, or as a way of fixing certain specific problems situationally, but would ultimately not be able to hold focus on the IE. To do so, they'd have to trade their straight-forwardness, impositions, and sense of simplicity and immediacy (lead Se) for seeing areas of "potential," searching for all sorts of connections between unrelated things as a way of seeing a "different side," and novelty for its own sake. 

It's not that an SLE wouldn't or couldn't do this for a short time or find them situationally useful, but ultimately they are not a type to care much about it. In my experiences, they tend to respond to Ne as if they don't really understand what the person is trying to get at, and proceed to either continue on with their business, or at best treat the Ne "connection" as a simple piece of input as to whatever actions they were doing before. They will not sit and fandangle a bunch of new connections or possibilities with you, because they do not tend to see them as being the most important focus here and now to whatever their directives are.

The Ne person would see them as being too simplistic, limited, not seeing all of the abstract "potential" or potential outcomes or ways of seeing of something, etc.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

randomki11s said:


> ... Oh I can assure you I'm not an Fe Dom ... I definitely judge your posts by logical content (notice that I pointed out what I thought was flawed in a previous reply) ... If i don't think it makes sense sometimes i will just move on to the next idea, I just find being a dick about it doesn't get me anywhere.
> 
> ... Have you ever read "Getting More: How to Negotiate to Achieve Your Goals in the Real World" - Stuart Diamond ? ... Being courteous/friendly/appreciative gets results, so I force myself to use more Fe on a daily basis.
> 
> ...


I honestly don't give two fucks about being courteous more than I must as a means of necessity. And it's posts like these that I react against. I don't think EIE but I am not sure I see SLE either.

Also, you have yet to address a post in an attempt to logically dissect it. That is curious aside that you just suggested that I should Fe. I fucking won't.


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## randomki11s (Nov 6, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> I honestly don't give two fucks about being courteous more than I must as a means of necessity. And it's posts like these that I react against. I don't think EIE but I am not sure I see SLE either.
> 
> Also, you have yet to address a post in an attempt to logically dissect it. That is curious aside that you just suggested that I should Fe. I fucking won't.


Whoa buddy! Are you actually getting mad at this? ... *looks around* ... I rly don't see anyone else getting mad ... Also ... I have read the stuff, but I've been in classes pretty much all day except for when I made that last reply so ill be happy to "dissect" w/e when I'm done for the day don't worry.

Also, I think you misunderstood. I wasn't suggesting you should use Fe at all. I was merely explaining that I'm not actually using Fe as much as you think, as well as positing an alternative reason why I might seem to have high Fe. 


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## electricky (Feb 18, 2011)

How "high" are we talking here? And are we talking purely the socionics conception of Ne?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

randomki11s said:


> Whoa buddy! Are you actually getting mad at this? ... *looks around* ... I rly don't see anyone else getting mad ... Also ... I have read the stuff, but I've been in classes pretty much all day except for when I made that last reply so ill be happy to "dissect" w/e when I'm done for the day don't worry.
> 
> Also, I think you misunderstood. I wasn't suggesting you should use Fe at all. I was merely explaining that I'm not actually using Fe as much as you think, as well as positing an alternative reason why I might seem to have high Fe.
> 
> ...


It's irrelevant if others are or not. I don't like when people suggest what you did and it doesn't matter why. Also, even Fe ego types might find it useful to read what you suggest. 

And what you do is in my opinion more important than what you say you do. A lot of people say they do things but when people are observed in reality we might see them do the exactly opposite they claim they are or do or to be. One of those is that you Fe a lot in your posts.


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## Snow (Oct 19, 2010)

@randomki11s , I think what @ephemereality is really getting at--but for whatever reason not saying--is that you seem to be focusing on a detail instead of looking at the big picture. As a few have already stated, you may want to fill out a questionnaire for others to get a better, more objective perspective of you as a whole.

I'm still learning socionics, so am no expert here, but I have never seen an actually effective "test" for socionics.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Revenant said:


> @randomki11s , I think what @ephemereality is really getting at--but for whatever reason not saying--is that you seem to be focusing on a detail instead of looking at the big picture. As a few have already stated, you may want to fill out a questionnaire for others to get a better, more objective perspective of you as a whole.
> 
> I'm still learning socionics, so am no expert here, but I have never seen an actually effective "test" for socionics.


Well, just because I'm an ILI doesn't mean I actually know how to vocalize what I am trying to express well to others lol. I guess you are somewhat accurate in what you are trying to express about what I am trying to express, though I wasn't perhaps thinking exactly in those terms. My meta think was elsewhere, more focused on the OP than my own thinking.


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## randomki11s (Nov 6, 2013)

itsme45 said:


> I see the world as...
> 1) ...a bundle of possibilities to be explored and unraveled.
> Which of these qualities best helps you understand the world?
> 14) The ability to see and pursue new possibilities.
> ...


1. I think I "like the existence of possibilities" more than actually being able to see them, now that I think about it. I've always had a lot of confidence in being able to tackle anything I encounter, so I may have misinterpreted the questions a bit heh.

... I usually just do stuff I usually do ... I actually don't mind routine, and I'm almost always punctual.

... Sometimes, I'd be talking to an friend about something, and she'd say something about how she's doing something differently: ... "why don't you do ... blah blah... instead?" or like "have you thought about ... blah blah ... ?" ... and I'd think ... "huh ... never thought about that possibility, that way is better. I'm going to do that instead."

... I think I enjoy those moments where I'm shown new possibilities than actually thinking of it myself. 

14) How that I've thought more about it. I'm good at "pursuing" specific "goals" aggressively ... not actually good at "seeing possibilities".

23) I don't know, I like deciding on doing something and going at it as soon as possible. Is that "exploring new possibilities"?

28) I don't really feel very comfident with ambiguity. Had to take an english class for the last time last semester, thank god, and while the books were fine, the analysis was very annoying for me (a lot of speculating about "things that aren't explicit" ... like ... what the author "means" or was "trying to convey" ... to me a lot of it is plain BS, the events happened. The end. The secrets of the universe are NOT hidden in the pages somewhere XD). I don't like poetry either for the same reason ... god english is annoying XD.




itsme45 said:


> I went for Ti subtype for several reasons; lots of Ti; also because I relate more to weak-ish Ne than SLE-Se would. According to description anyway. Though it doesn't help the case for Fi much -.-
> 
> Other than that, I can sometimes look like Se subtype too. Some people don't even subscribe to the subtypes system. For me it's more like the Ti subtype fits me more in general.


Beta Subtypes - (
I connect more with the Ti subtype because I do prefer to remain in the shadow if given the choice, i.e. in a leadership position where I can get things done outside of public/moral scrutiny etc. In a group I have a good sense of power dynamics, and usually place myself so that I'm directing a smaller group. In university, I'm not the brightest or most imaginative nor do I always come up with outside-the-box solutions, and I rely on my groupmates on that more (pick their brains). As much fun as R&D might be, I find I probably would gravitate towards a manageral role after finishing my Bachelor's.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/14-Type-and-subtype-descriptions-Meged-Ovcharov

Relate to Se subtype: "Notably resourceful, they are able to manifest vindictiveness in doses that make life for their ill-wishers simply intolerable." I'm pretty vindictive, and if something/someone pisses me off I grind them into dust if I have to, I like to get even. I can be very pushy about getting what I want. I've since learned, and now remind myself to use the carrot (Fe) to get more out of life.

Relate to Ti subtype: I definitely keep people at a distance (Very few people know me in detail. Even those that do mostly only pieces) "... impression of quiet force and confidence ... " that describes me a lot.

... Also, I thought that the Ti subtype means you would have lower use of the left block (1st, 4th, 6th, 7th) and higher (2nd, 3rd, 5th, 8th). That would mean you should have a higher Ne use than a Se subtype since Ne is the role (3rd).

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/149-Vertical-Subtypes-Meged-Ovcharov


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## itsme45 (Jun 8, 2012)

ephemereality said:


> Not sure what I think, but something doesn't add up to me about SLE. There is a striking difference in quality and eagerness between Fe in ego and super-id. Especially some of your exchanges showed a lot of Fe from the OP that didn't seem to behave the way it does when it is suggestive or mobilizing since there was no "activation" trigger from either of you. It came out randomly and spontaneously but it wasn't awkward (the way I read it). Another thing I noticed is that the OP doesn't seem to judge my posts based on logical content but mere social participation in this thread? He's doing the behavior I described to Diph earlier where I have noticed Fe bases tending to thank posts for you merely posting and contributing, something I haven't quite seen Ti ego types do either. I am personally not ruling out alpha.


Alright, I see. I dunno really, I can still accept Se valuing type; I can see the SLE too in some parts but OP should fill out a questionnaire, yeah.




Figure said:


> I _highly_ doubt @randomki11s is an EIE.



Yeah, that was just pulled out of my ass, quick equation of strong Fe keeping the Se valuing. (Doesn't seem Se DS for sure, so didn't mention IEI)





> In regards to the original question:
> 
> You cannot be strong in Se and Ne at the same time, as they are rejected alternatives to each other. Se doms essentially focus on Se at the total expense of Ne, and likewise with Ne doms and Se. An SLE would see Ne as having value in some situations, or as a way of fixing certain specific problems situationally, but would ultimately not be able to hold focus on the IE. To do so, they'd have to trade their straight-forwardness, impositions, and sense of simplicity and immediacy (lead Se) for seeing areas of "potential," searching for all sorts of connections between unrelated things as a way of seeing a "different side," and novelty for its own sake.
> 
> ...


That's all a pretty logical view; I just wish there was a proper explanation for the underlying reasons for function preferences  because without knowing that, this theory can still be twisted to include NeSe type. But that underlying neurological/cognitive explanation is outside socionics' reach.

By the way it's a simplification too, saying that SxE is all about straightforward immediacy, well sure a lot of the type is, but I wouldn't want to forget the role of the Ni DS for example 

Contrasted with Ne though, it's fine. I like your description  Of course, above mentioned twist is that if Se type is capable of withholding from always interacting with environment directly, then there *isn't* anything known currently that would exclude ability to get into Ne. Though, I'm sure Ni is still better suited here.

(If you - or anyone else - disagree(s) about how there isn't anything known about that, do let me know.)




randomki11s said:


> 1. I think I "like the existence of possibilities" more than actually being able to see them, now that I think about it. I've always had a lot of confidence in being able to tackle anything I encounter, so I may have misinterpreted the questions a bit heh.


Yes, I also found it hard to interpret the word possibility correctly. I tend to interpret it as opportunity that can be capitalized on for a goal. That's then no longer Ne possibility. A possibility but not in service of Ne ego. That for me took a long time to understand.

So are you trying to say here that you are not great with _actually _thinking up possibilities? It's more of an openness to what may come and readiness to respond to? That would be Se, not Ne.




> ... I usually just do stuff I usually do ... I actually don't mind routine, and I'm almost always punctual.


Ehh, stereotypical ILE would never say this.




> ... Sometimes, I'd be talking to an friend about something, and she'd say something about how she's doing something differently: ... "why don't you do ... blah blah... instead?" or like "have you thought about ... blah blah ... ?" ... and I'd think ... "huh ... never thought about that possibility, that way is better. I'm going to do that instead."
> 
> ... I think I enjoy those moments where I'm shown new possibilities than actually thinking of it myself.


The question though is, why do you enjoy being shown the new possibilities? I don't really enjoy that myself if I can't use them. Either for doing something or sometimes for some logical issue.




> 23) I don't know, I like deciding on doing something and going at it as soon as possible. Is that "exploring new possibilities"?


No, as that means you are not keeping options open. No more possibility thinking, you are executing one option instead.




> 28) I don't really feel very confident with ambiguity. Had to take an english class for the last time last semester, thank god, and while the books were fine, the analysis was very annoying for me (a lot of speculating about "things that aren't explicit" ... like ... what the author "means" or was "trying to convey" ... to me a lot of it is plain BS, the events happened. The end. The secrets of the universe are NOT hidden in the pages somewhere XD). I don't like poetry either for the same reason ... god english is annoying XD.


Well I dunno this sounds a bit like Ni devaluing... or just weak Ni. I sometimes can say this myself though about some stuff. I mean, I don't mind the idea of events being meaningful in a Ni way but I myself am useless at reflecting on events in such a way. So sometimes I can seem dismissive of that approach but if it makes some sense to me then I don't have a problem.

As for poetry, I don't like conventional poetry but some other poetry I do like... just don't ask me to analyse it for the life of me 




> I connect more with the Ti subtype because I do prefer to remain in the shadow if given the choice, i.e. in a leadership position where I can get things done outside of public/moral scrutiny etc. In a group I have a good sense of power dynamics, and usually place myself so that I'm directing a smaller group. In university, I'm not the brightest or most imaginative nor do I always come up with outside-the-box solutions, and I rely on my groupmates on that more (pick their brains). As much fun as R&D might be, I find I probably would gravitate towards a manageral role after finishing my Bachelor's.
> 
> Relate to Se subtype: "Notably resourceful, they are able to manifest vindictiveness in doses that make life for their ill-wishers simply intolerable." I'm pretty vindictive, and if something/someone pisses me off I grind them into dust if I have to, I like to get even. I can be very pushy about getting what I want. I've since learned, and now remind myself to use the carrot (Fe) to get more out of life.
> 
> Relate to Ti subtype: I definitely keep people at a distance (Very few people know me in detail. Even those that do mostly only pieces) "... impression of quiet force and confidence ... " that describes me a lot.


Ah, I see. I guess I relate to the remaining in the shadows in a sense, keeping people at a distance and confidence . Picking brains is good too 

I'm not as vindictive as you sound here (?), only in the heat of the moment. Sounds like you learned more Fe than me though...  (I'm not hinting at Fe ego type here)





> ... Also, I thought that the Ti subtype means you would have lower use of the left block (1st, 4th, 6th, 7th) and higher (2nd, 3rd, 5th, 8th). That would mean you should have a higher Ne use than a Se subtype since Ne is the role (3rd).


I wondered who was going to notice that first in my post! Hahaha.

So that theory about inert/contact subtypes necessarily strengthening those other functions in that order, no, that makes no sense to me. Give me a reason why it must be that way? Also, LSI has Ne PoLR and the Ti-SLE description has less Ne than Se-SLE description (limiting options more, checking variables more before jumping in - SLE subtypes - Wikisocion).




> http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/149-Vertical-Subtypes-Meged-Ovcharov


That's the sort of article that builds too much on theoretical assumptions without checking how things really work. A few logical jumps as well. The kind of reasoning where you just need to use some slightly different assumptions - which are still based on nothing - to end up with different conclusions.


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

itsme45 said:


> Yeah, that was just pulled out of my ass, quick equation of strong Fe keeping the Se valuing. (Doesn't seem Se DS for sure, so didn't mention IEI)


Fair enough. 



> That's all a pretty logical view; I just wish there was a proper explanation for the underlying reasons for function preferences  because without knowing that, this theory can still be twisted to include NeSe type. But that underlying neurological/cognitive explanation is outside socionics' reach.


By "proper" do you mean biological/neurological/cognitive? I think, unfortunately as you've started to unearth, socionics as a theory doesn't translate well into words. Part of that may be the Russian translations, but even beyond that it seems like the theory is always gesturing to something instead of defining it as properly as we'd like. 



> By the way it's a simplification too, saying that SxE is all about straightforward immediacy, well sure a lot of the type is, but I wouldn't want to forget the role of the Ni DS for example


Agreed  It's, again, challenging to pull descriptors of an IE and put them in place of what the concept of an IE is pointing to without making it sound like something else (i.e. for Se, enneagram 8). 



> above mentioned twist is that if Se type is capable of withholding from always interacting with environment directly, then there *isn't* anything known currently that would exclude ability to get into Ne. Though, I'm sure Ni is still better suited here.


This took me a sec, but I see what you're saying now. If you aren't exerting use of the IE, then how can it be at the expense of another one if that's the "principle" of the tradeoff.

That's interesting. My only explanation for that is that your ego block is by definition, impulsively a center of constant focus, and that being Se base involves more than the stereotypical "commander" mentality minute to minute. There wouldn't be a lot of shifting away from it, at least not long term. If you consider the IE's as a bias in taking in certain kinds of information and NOT as behavioral traits, it makes this a bit easier to see - Se base not always as mere "blunt force" or whatever, but something else that is perceivably almost always a focus for Se base types, even when they aren't out and about pushing their way. 

IDK where I'm going with that. It's a good question.


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## randomki11s (Nov 6, 2013)

itsme45 said:


> Yes, I also found it hard to interpret the word possibility correctly. I tend to interpret it as ... _opportunity that can be capitalized on _ ... for a goal.


YES! This. Is. Brilliant.



itsme45 said:


> That's then no longer Ne possibility. A possibility but not in service of Ne ego. That for me took a long time to understand. So are you trying to say here that you are not great with _actually _thinking up possibilities? It's more of an openness to what may come and readiness to respond to? That would be Se, not Ne.


Ohhh.



itsme45 said:


> Ehh, stereotypical ILE would never say this.


Yea, funny how that works ... once in a while, not all that frequently, I'd get the idea of trying something new ... i.e. new takeout ... and I'd like it, and not long after the first time ... I'm getting the exact same thing again, and it becomes routine, and I'm fine with it  . That's pretty much how me "doing new things" ends up being most of the time lol ... Getting to classes I'm always there at least 10 minutes before class starts.



itsme45 said:


> The question though is, why do you enjoy being shown the new possibilities? I don't really enjoy that myself if I can't use them. Either for doing something or sometimes for some logical issue.


I mean ... I enjoy eating good takeout, so I guess that's me _using_ the new stuff ... Prime Example: I saw you using the italics operator for text ... and I'm loving it cuz it helps me _emphasize my point_ ... like that ... I'm going to start using the italics thingy a lot now thanks! 

I think the reason I like learning more about personality theory is mainly because I like to apply what I learned to real life (figure out what makes people _tick_ and how to make them tick), and I don't really go for new/obscure theories ... like when people mentioned Reinin Dichotomies before ... unless I see a great deal of use for it (a lot of it - Dichotomies - seems very ambiguous to me)



itsme45 said:


> I'm not as vindictive as you sound here (?), only in the heat of the moment.


Oh it's definitely in the heat of the moment lol ... rarely long term vindictiveness ... A long while ago, a buddy of mine did something ... told me my group would never win the game we were playing in history class or something (we were guessing what pictures relate to certain historical people/events ... grand prize being donuts and coffee for the whole group ... yea I know it's petty ... but he rly rly pissed me off somehow) ... I made it my personal business to compile a long list of random pictures from google, memorize them, made sure my teamates memorized them ... beat the literal crap out of his team hands-down for a week and got the prize mostly out of pure tenacity and spite > 
... When my SEE brother and I fight, we're at eachother's throats in an instant (flashes of fury, and we're both liable to break stuff XD), and I can be vindictive in the short term (I can think up a battleplan on the fly to make his life absolute hell). An hour later, at the most, we're usually cool, and I usually ditch the plan.



itsme45 said:


> Sounds like you learned more Fe than me though...


Dunno, I'm still a jerk a lot of the time, but I see the utility in consciously trying to be rly nice to people. It definitely pays off  . Seriously, check out Getting More - Stuart Diamond. Very useful.



itsme45 said:


> Give me a reason why it must be that way? Also, LSI has Ne PoLR and the Ti-SLE description has less Ne than Se-SLE description.


*shrugs* hell, beats me lol. I didn't even read the whole article, just skimmed it. :laughing:



itsme45 said:


> That's the sort of article that builds too much on theoretical assumptions without checking how things really work. A few logical jumps as well. The kind of reasoning where you just need to use some slightly different assumptions - which are still based on nothing - to end up with different conclusions.


Yea, the inherent ambiguity in these theories annoys me, but people don't always fit the mold.


----------



## Gadiou (Nov 18, 2012)

randomki11s said:


> So I'm an SLE - Ti ... and I think I have higher Ne than normal ... how does that work? ... ideas?
> 
> [see signature]
> |
> ...


Doesn't work as SLE you have 2 dimensional Ne


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## itsme45 (Jun 8, 2012)

Figure said:


> By "proper" do you mean biological/neurological/cognitive? I think, unfortunately as you've started to unearth, socionics as a theory doesn't translate well into words. Part of that may be the Russian translations, but even beyond that it seems like the theory is always gesturing to something instead of defining it as properly as we'd like.


Yes, I meant that.  And yes, that's true too, what you say about socionics.




> This took me a sec, but I see what you're saying now. If you aren't exerting use of the IE, then how can it be at the expense of another one if that's the "principle" of the tradeoff.
> 
> That's interesting. My only explanation for that is that your ego block is by definition, impulsively a center of constant focus, and that being Se base involves more than the stereotypical "commander" mentality minute to minute. There wouldn't be a lot of shifting away from it, at least not long term. If you consider the IE's as a bias in taking in certain kinds of information and NOT as behavioral traits, it makes this a bit easier to see - Se base not always as mere "blunt force" or whatever, but something else that is perceivably almost always a focus for Se base types, even when they aren't out and about pushing their way.
> 
> IDK where I'm going with that. It's a good question.


Well would be good to know what "something else" is meant there 

I think this is where it would be good to have some better basis for all this than the observations by socionists.




randomki11s said:


> YES! This. Is. Brilliant.


Glad someone understands me 

Anyway that reminds me, you forgot to reply to a few points that I believe were/are pretty relevant to the topic. I'll just copypaste here:

_Well okay this question will be pretty simplistic, but, what do you enjoy more, going out to get your Se stuff or making these connections between ideas in the fashion as above?_

_I don't really like making connections in this way, I like logical connections and reject most analogies as superficial in a logical sense. Depends. That's where our thinking processes seem to differ._

_But what you said here doesn't sound like a one-track mind. How can you reconcile the two?_

_Another comment on this. You didn't really care about doing those goals if you deleted them based on the length of the list? Not sure how that fits with Se base though it doesn't have to exclude it._

(From this post.)




> Yea, funny how that works ... once in a while, not all that frequently, I'd get the idea of trying something new ... i.e. new takeout ... and I'd like it, and not long after the first time ... I'm getting the exact same thing again, and it becomes routine, and I'm fine with it  . That's pretty much how me "doing new things" ends up being most of the time lol ... Getting to classes I'm always there at least 10 minutes before class starts.


Eh I have a strange relationship with routine; I can spontaneously get into a habit within 3 days and later get off it in 3 days. None of that is ever planned.

With the food stuff, if it was really good, I would keep eating it for a while then get bored of it and drop it all quickly. Later return to it perhaps. But what I said about spontaneous habit-switching, applies to other things more.

I'm not as punctual as you are... depends on how much I care. If I care, I'm usually there right on time, not before not later. Otherwise will be terribly late.

And okay you don't sound like Ne ego here. At all. (Ni either lol ) So, either Ne superid or Se ego.




> Oh it's definitely in the heat of the moment lol ... rarely long term vindictiveness ... A long while ago, a buddy of mine did something ... told me my group would never win the game we were playing in history class or something (we were guessing what pictures relate to certain historical people/events ... grand prize being donuts and coffee for the whole group ... yea I know it's petty ... but he rly rly pissed me off somehow) ... I made it my personal business to compile a long list of random pictures from google, memorize them, made sure my teamates memorized them ... beat the literal crap out of his team hands-down for a week and got the prize mostly out of pure tenacity and spite >
> ... When my SEE brother and I fight, we're at eachother's throats in an instant (flashes of fury, and we're both liable to break stuff XD), and I can be vindictive in the short term (I can think up a battleplan on the fly to make his life absolute hell). An hour later, at the most, we're usually cool, and I usually ditch the plan.


Hahah so much fun. ;P

I used to be like this with my brother (SLE too? not sure whatsoever though, someone suggested xIE for him before), now we matured a little bit perhaps. A little bit.  There is still a lot of loudness heh.




> Dunno, I'm still a jerk a lot of the time, but I see the utility in consciously trying to be rly nice to people. It definitely pays off  . Seriously, check out Getting More - Stuart Diamond. Very useful.


You sound like my brother :/

He's got all these books like that. I only like to read them for funny anecdotes lol. I'm not the type to follow generic tips laid out in a book like that. I go more by my experience and observation/analysis/understanding.




> Yea, the inherent ambiguity in these theories annoys me, but people don't always fit the mold.


Ambiguity doesn't have to be inherent but in these personality theories here yeah...


----------



## randomki11s (Nov 6, 2013)

itsme45 said:


> Anyway that reminds me, you forgot to reply to a few points that I believe were/are pretty relevant to the topic. I'll just copypaste here:
> 
> Well okay this question will be pretty simplistic, but, what do you enjoy more, going out to get your Se stuff or making these connections between ideas in the fashion as above?


Well, I've never quite liked math classes ... and in class I follow the chain of reasoning, make connections etc. but in the end I really don't give a hoot about the ideas or w/e beyond getting a good grade on the tests (I don't see it as very useful to me ATM XD ). I think I definitely enjoy going out and taking advantage of an opportunity (which I mistook for enjoying having _possibilities_ ). 



itsme45 said:


> _I don't really like making connections in this way, I like logical connections and reject most analogies as superficial in a logical sense. Depends. That's where our thinking processes seem to differ._


I don't really know why I'm good at analogies. Analogies to me are just logical connections. I just kinda "logic" my way through them. I think about it like in a logical process. Maybe it's fast logic or Ni ... I just looked up some sample questions ...

most cases I deal with analogies like this ... logically
...CHERRY : ROUNDED :: thread : _____ 1. weaving 2. needle 3. thin
-I'm picturing a cherry ... "rounded" is the shape ... picturing thread ... shape is "thin" ...

...ARCHIPELAGO : ISLAND :: CONSTELLATION : ____
-Well, Archipelago = group of islands, constellation is a group of ... stars ...

but this one came out of nowhere ... so I dunno ...
...100 : C :: 1,000 : ____ ... 1.M 2.D 3.L 4.R
-I have no idea if it's right (there was no answer key) but I'd say 1.M because 100 ~= C-ent, 1000 ~= M-il. Don't know what made me think that tbh. Just popped in my head after staring at it a bit. I don't think it makes me an intuitive though, because it's rare.



itsme45 said:


> Another comment on this. You didn't really care about doing those goals if you deleted them based on the length of the list? Not sure how that fits with Se base though it doesn't have to exclude it.


Well, I think of goals, then I think of specific steps towards that ultimate goal, I have it in bullet points. When I have too many options goals I feel like I'm spreading my resources too thin, and narrow it back to my overarching goal. I still have all the steps in my head mind you, but seeing all of them on paper makes me lose focus. Having one or two things on the list keeps the course of action clear.


----------



## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

Ananael said:


> Spiders and insects are too disgusting for me to kill myself. Therefore I get someone else to do it for me. I've worked with animals in labs before. They are bred for the purpose of research. When they need to be killed so that their organ tissues can be extracted to make slides or something, it's not a shock. I don't really think about it in terms of is it right or wrong, but mostly what's necessary.
> 
> Even as far as falsifying data goes, it's more about not wanting to yield inaccurate results rather than the moral implications of doing so. That being said, this view is probably colored by some moral principles I may hold.


I sometimes asked my mom to kill those spiders, but now I'm brave enough for doing that job by myself. I don't touch them, because I use a shoe or pesticide for that purpose.

I know that those animals are specifically bred for experiments, but to be honest I wouldn't be able to kill an animal for extracting their tissues without feeling like crap later, so I prefer that someone else deals with that process. 

About falsifying data, those alterations were done after knowing that they didn't agree with the theoretical results, thing that I find bad because you aren't recognizing that you did some failure during the experiment, or the instruments weren't working properly to begin with, so I prefer to deal with crappy data, explaining that something went wrong during the experiment. I also think that I'm altering reality when I change that information, as there is no other record of the things that I did at that moment for noticing that I manipulated my results.


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

Blue Flare said:


> I know that those animals are specifically bred for experiments, but to be honest I wouldn't be able to kill an animal for extracting their tissues without feeling like crap later, so I prefer that someone else deals with that process.


Why feel like crap later? You don't just brutally slaughter them. 



> About falsifying data, those alterations were done after knowing that they didn't agree with the theoretical results, thing that I find bad because you aren't recognizing that you did some failure during the experiment, or the instruments weren't working properly to begin with, so I prefer to deal with crappy data, explaining that something went wrong during the experiment. I also think that I'm altering reality when I change that information, as there is no other record of the things that I did at that moment for noticing that I manipulated my results.


Well repeating experiments is meant to maintain the credibility of the theoretical expectations. It's almost expected that in some cases, factors beyond human error influenced the deviant results. It also helps people observe the limitations within certain experimental setups. So I agree that crappy data is better than altering data. 

Altering reality, you say? 
*holds self back from rant on skepticism*


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

Ananael said:


> Why feel like crap later? You don't just brutally slaughter them.


I know, you can use some injected substance for killing those animals quickly, so they won't suffer too much. Stil it isn't something that I would like to do, as I prefer to work on chemistry experiments.



> Well repeating experiments is meant to maintain the credibility of the theoretical expectations. It's almost expected that in some cases, factors beyond human error influenced the deviant results. It also helps people observe the limitations within certain experimental setups. So I agree that crappy data is better than altering data.
> 
> Altering reality, you say?
> *holds self back from rant on skepticism*


Yeah, that happens frequently, specially when you're an undergraduate student, because you only have access to cheap instruments that tend to fail a lot. I recall that I had to study those deviations on instrumental analysis, where the main thing was to learn how to use the instruments and how they worked.

The other thing of altering reality wasn't meant to be taken literally, as I used it as an exaggeration of my reasons for not liking to alter crappy results. If reality trolls you, you only have to accept it.


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## randomki11s (Nov 6, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> ...I don't like too large groups, ideally 4-5 people including myself at most, though smaller is always better to me, and I rather have some connection to these people already than being entirely new. I don't mind meeting new people but then not too many at a time, but more like 1-2 people maybe so I can get used to them etc...


Right, I'll keep that in mind. I was actually toying with the idea of just going as a smaller group. I recall last year we went with a larger group to ice skate at Citi Pond in NYC (about 10 people in the group ... and a couple hundred strangers on the ice) and he kinda just stuck with like the couple of people he knew the whole time. Do you think it was more so the amount of new people or just the crowd in general?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

randomki11s said:


> Right, I'll keep that in mind. I was actually toying with the idea of just going as a smaller group. I recall last year we went with a larger group to ice skate at Citi Pond in NYC (about 10 people in the group ... and a couple hundred strangers on the ice) and he kinda just stuck with like the couple of people he knew the whole time. Do you think it was more so the amount of new people or just the crowd in general?


Both. I also always stick to people I know in those situations part because I don't like large crowds, but mostly because I just like to be with people I know well and have personal attachments to.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

@ephemereality

The head/gut thing is kind of interesting. Hadn't thought of it that way. It's quite interesting because I think @itsme45 and I are pretty different, and we don't (as far as I can see) try to term these differences in type of Socionics type (I see a lot of people include/exclude people from interaction based on whether or not they think they're part of their own type) so I think it's just an acceptance that socionics doesn't provide for all factors in a person. I actually think it may be interesting to see - especially if @randomki11s turns out to be a heart type (like a 3 for example) - a comparison between the similarities and differences in cognition-personality-behaviour between enneagram types and socionics types. (Although I feel that I have a 1ishness to myself and that 6 isn't certain.)
@Ananael

I never poured salt on a snail or slug but: I did used to play with woodlice to see how much pressure you have to apply to get one to fold and I did fight a pretty extensive battle with ants in our garden. Unfortunately I had my weapon of mass destruction so they always lost (i.e. I stuck a hose down the hole where they were coming from and flooded them.) 

When I was extremely young I had a fascination with red ants. We had a red ants nest in our house in M'sia and I was fascinated with following them back to their nest - which are basically leaves folded and glued into position. The gardener had to burn it though, which made me sad ): Another time when I was much older I watched ants construct a nest methodically day to day and applied heat to the nest to see how much force one would have to use to get them to mobilise in full force. Eventually though I just burned it because they are a pest, after all.


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## itsme45 (Jun 8, 2012)

ephemereality said:


> I think I should at least invest in an UV alarm clock. I feel so much better waking up to sunshine than I do when it's dark, and I definitely need less sleep during the summer as well.


Yeah it sounds like a good idea then, hope it will work for you 




> lol. I think your interest in valuing what one should focus on in general seems to reflect the difference between gut and head energy. I agree with Diph. I don't care about physical reaction time. I'm so fucking suck at it I just gave up anyway. There was a time when I used to play RTS actively, especially SC2, in a very competitive way, where I was considering trying to train my APM above 60 because it was clear to me that it was the thing holding my progression back at the time, but I just gave up. I didn't even know how to approach the damn thing more than just keep playing the game which got frustrating because I didn't feel I progressed anywhere.


Uhhmm so why didn't you go and train it that way in the end? I don't know what APM means but I assume it's something specific and effective for this goal...?




> Interesting. Never considered the ethical outcome of your actions? As a kid I didn't either. It came as I grew older. I think it was also part a result of increased Fi awareness in general.


I'll be honest, I fail to see the ethical outcome about killing insects. I sometimes jokingly say I'm a real bad "racist" in terms of valuing people consciously over quite some animals. There's many exceptions sure  But insects aren't part of them.

Why I go with people over insects? I haven't analysed it deep but I came up with the following before; I can interact/communicate with them in a more satisfying manner. Humans have a special cognitive intelligence as well, well, at least compared to most animals. 




> Because he felt bad over what he did? If he's a doctor, aside his moral creed as a doctor he has to take upon himself when he graduates, I assume he felt his job was to save lives, not to take them more than what's necessary anyway. He lost his own rational sense, I think Jung would have a field day with this one acting out one's shadow, so doing something that he considered to be so wrong put him in a psychological position I assume he just likely couldn't handle. Again, perfect Jungian material lol.


Yes I get that he felt bad over what he did. But this bad?  It looks like it's beyond a normal reaction. I do see he felt it important to save lives as that's what made him so frustrated in the first place. Oh well, some cognitive dissonance but that doesn't explain it that well to me. Yes it would be interesting to analyse that mind. 

I also find the death sentence wrong btw. Simply because it's something you cannot undo. (Not only because sometimes the person might be innocent... but that too.) And also, if we are so intent on caring about human rights in a fair way, why should we have the right to kill someone? That is, why doesn't the person have the right to life?

(Of course, to protect yourself or someone else, etc. you can kill, that's different obviously)

You could surely argue that the person killed someone else already so you have the right to kill this person because of that. But then someone else can kill you - you, the executioner or the commander for the execution etc - using that reasoning  Soo, overall I find it better to limit the availability of such severe actions. And, in a practical sense, to avoid further issues about this person existing inside society, you can just lock up the person.

I can imagine that in some extreme cases execution isn't a bad idea (e.g. it can depend on an arbitrary idea of who's human enough and who is not.) But I'm not going to get into this right now...

Oh well, moral systems still aren't too logical to me on the whole :/ I do try to use logic and practical sense where I can but that's not always enough to answer every question.




vosquoque said:


> I once stepped on a snail as a child for that same reason and spent the rest of my day bummed about it.


Wow so sensitive. 

(EDIT: don't take that the wrong way please)

Btw I think I have done that accidentally but usually I try to save snails by pulling them off the road. I kind of like them since I once tried to kill one just to get its shell. If that makes any sense 

With that snail, as a kid, I was almost done with the job when it somehow hit me what I was doing. A kind of physical connection was suddenly becoming conscious for me. I can't put that into better words. I left the snail alone after that. 




Ananael said:


> No, I did not. The suggestion of a type stuck in the superego seems to be a possible explanation for my typing dilemma.


Ahh, I see.  That's now starting to sound interesting!




> Spiders and insects are too disgusting for me to kill myself. Therefore I get someone else to do it for me.


Interesting sensitiveness to Si there.




> As a child I poured salt on a snail and was intrigued at how it just disintegrated into nothing. It was impressive.


Hmm despite what I said above, I think I would've watched with interest too in this situation. 



Ananael said:


> Altering reality, you say?
> *holds self back from rant on skepticism*


Hey don't hold yourself back. 




randomki11s said:


> Makes sense, and my buddy is the same way. So I was thinking I'd just keep on inviting him to stuff, sooner or later he's gonna come right? Would you?


Just make sure he doesn't fed up with your idea of inviting him out. 




> Well when I was like 7, I killed a mouse that was running by and freaking people out (you know how people freak out about mice) ... I chucked a rock and hit it smack in the side of the head at 8 yards ... and the mouse was a pretty small target as you can imagine ... luckiest throw i've ever made ;D. I don't think it's a big deal though. I don't feel bad about it or anything: it's a nuisance and I took care of it.


More anecdotes  We had a lot of mice going around up in the attic in my parents' house. We'd periodically catch them by using traps then my father would drown them in water or feed them to the neighbour's cats.  The latter, that was a really interesting sight... Cat would sit contently on the terrace, we'd walk up to it with the bottle containing the mouse, cat would perk up at it, my father would start to open the bottle to release the mouse, cat would still be sitting there, mouse would start running and boooom, in maybe one single millisecond, mouse was inside the cat's mouth and then simply disappeared.  
I just really marvelled at how these cats would be so efficient at this hunting job...




ephemereality said:


> Heh. I would if I have to but I would probably feel bad about it now as I'm older. Also, unfortunately mice are cute opposed to other critters and vermin. I might send a cat or similar predator after it if possible though, since they don't feel guilt and they are doing what they are supposed to do.


Ohh yeah cuteness is a deciding factor too. 

Btw, I don't understand this about how it's better to have someone else execute the action that you consider morally bad? You simply just want to avoid the automatic feeling of guilt? Interesting... A pretty practical approach in that case I would say 

But that kind of automatic guilt doesn't make a lot of sense to me either. I'm not saying I'm a sociopath or anything, just this sort of guilt seems really useless to me. I had it myself about certain people related things before but that was a really useless version too because it was not about something actually "bad". 




Blue Flare said:


> I sometimes asked my mom to kill those spiders, but now I'm brave enough for doing that job by myself. I don't touch them, because I use a shoe or pesticide for that purpose.
> 
> I know that those animals are specifically bred for experiments, but to be honest I wouldn't be able to kill an animal for extracting their tissues without feeling like crap later, so I prefer that someone else deals with that process.


I'm asking you too, just want to avoid feeling crap regardless of how you think of the issue in a moral sense?

And kudos on finally getting to man up about those spiders. 




Diphenhydramine said:


> The head/gut thing is kind of interesting. Hadn't thought of it that way. It's quite interesting because I think @_itsme45_ and I are pretty different, and we don't (as far as I can see) try to term these differences in type of Socionics type (I see a lot of people include/exclude people from interaction based on whether or not they think they're part of their own type) so I think it's just an acceptance that socionics doesn't provide for all factors in a person. I actually think it may be interesting to see - especially if @_randomki11s_ turns out to be a heart type (like a 3 for example) - a comparison between the similarities and differences in cognition-personality-behaviour between enneagram types and socionics types. (Although I feel that I have a 1ishness to myself and that 6 isn't certain.


Yes I do think we are different but I have no idea what the cause of that is. You seem more rational in a sense, and you of course have some different interests, that's to be expected. I find it interesting though 

As for the rationality thing, I can see what you mean about Enneagram 1, maybe a strong gut fix for you there and it would explain a lot yes.

@_randomki11s_ could be a type 3, yep. And maybe 7 for head fix if not his core type. 

I would be certainly interested in seeing such an exhaustive comparison myself.

And duh, I could go on about ants myself.  We would've had a lot of fun playing


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

itsme45 said:


> Yeah it sounds like a good idea then, hope it will work for you


Which I've btw have planned to do the past 3-4 years... lol. 



> Uhhmm so why didn't you go and train it that way in the end? I don't know what APM means but I assume it's something specific and effective for this goal...?


Actions per minute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It means the ability you can perform an action in a game per minute like the amount of clicks you do on the keyboard, sends out orders, builds stuff etc. Very relevant in RTS where a great ability to multitask is needed, both in terms of being able to accurately micro units in combat but also because in order to not fall behind the opponent to keep up production etc. 

And I don't know. It just felt like I couldn't progress anymore though I definitely could if I bothered to put sufficient effort into it. The goal did however not feel reachable within the casual playtime I spent into the game since I wasn't playing it 8+ hours a day pros do, or even those who play more hardcore. I played maybe 2-3 hours a day. And while it was enough for me to progress up to a certain point, I just felt like I hit a brickwall that was difficult to overcome and would only be possible with extreme dedication over a very long period of time. 

It happens a lot when I pick up things. I pick up basics very fast and progress quickly but only up to a certain point where my own, usually physical limitations now when I think of it, just entirely disencourage me because I feel like it's not something I'm capable of doing without having to have this extreme passion of wanting to spend every waking hour of my life improving my skills and I have yet to feel that for anything I've done. I guess that's why these things ultimately become hobbies as opposed to professions. As an example, I used to play the guitar for many years and I picked it up fast enough but only up until a certain point where I began to become more frustrated because it required more effort to play how I wanted and at this particular skill level than I was honestly willing to invest into. So I tried to set up practice times but eventually I just lose interest because I don't play to improve my game for these things, I don't like such repetition that must constantly be practiced every day, as soon as it becomes routine I lose interest and it's extremely difficult to maintain it. I don't play the guitar to practice finger exercises. I play the guitar because I like expressing myself through music. 



> I'll be honest, I fail to see the ethical outcome about killing insects. I sometimes jokingly say I'm a real bad "racist" in terms of valuing people consciously over quite some animals. There's many exceptions sure  But insects aren't part of them.
> 
> Why I go with people over insects? I haven't analysed it deep but I came up with the following before; I can interact/communicate with them in a more satisfying manner. Humans have a special cognitive intelligence as well, well, at least compared to most animals.


Well tbh, I used to be much more uncaring one could say up until my late teens or so when something happened and I just became more empathic overall, though I have honestly always cared a lot, sometimes more, about animals than I do humans. Simply because to me humans are dicks and during my teens when I was depressed, I was extremely misanthropic and thought the world would be better off we had a great nuclear war and bombed all of us off this planet. I just couldn't reasonably justify why we are and why we are destroying ourselves the way we do. Now that I'm not an emo depressed teen I don't quite think like this as often anymore, but I don't think I'll ever truly lose my misanthropic streak. I often want to think good about humans and have some kind of faith in humanity where I can say I value the human race as a whole, but I can't. In the end we're all fucked up and we are fucking ourselves up so all I can think about then well then just fuck it. Why even bother trying to save ourselves when we are intent on making sure we'll die in the future. At least the spider did nothing more bad than being a spider. 



> Yes I get that he felt bad over what he did. But this bad?  It looks like it's beyond a normal reaction. I do see he felt it important to save lives as that's what made him so frustrated in the first place. Oh well, some cognitive dissonance but that doesn't explain it that well to me. Yes it would be interesting to analyse that mind.


Well, he clearly had other issues likely that were underlying this, and perhaps also greater likelihood of developing psychosis etc. Plus, being in a warzone in general is very psychologically taxing even if you are not exactly out on the field. It doesn't make the experience any worse as a doctor who has to live under this constant stress and treat wounded soldiers. Even if doctors are trained to see mutilated bodies and such, they're not superhuman. So I can see a lot of reasonable reasons why he snapped in a double sense. 

I also find the death sentence wrong btw. Simply because it's something you cannot undo. (Not only because sometimes the person might be innocent... but that too.) And also, if we are so intent on caring about human rights in a fair way, why should we have the right to kill someone? That is, why doesn't the person have the right to life?



> (Of course, to protect yourself or someone else, etc. you can kill, that's different obviously)
> 
> You could surely argue that the person killed someone else already so you have the right to kill this person because of that. But then someone else can kill you - you, the executioner or the commander for the execution etc - using that reasoning  Soo, overall I find it better to limit the availability of such severe actions. And, in a practical sense, to avoid further issues about this person existing inside society, you can just lock up the person.
> 
> ...


And this is exactly my reasoning regarding killing animals as well. If we apply it to humans, then why are animals or even plants of less value? To me life is life regardless of what kind of life. I see it as a great moral hypocrisy to value one's own species over the other, especially when it's clear that we need other species in order to survive. It's one thing killing for food - then it's survival between the two of us, but in situations where we as sentient beings are capable of making aware choices of our actions, I think it is a responsibility to minimize suffering. 

With that said, I have _a lot_ to say about the ills of charity and other similar systems meant to help people in need, but I won't go into that here as it could turn into a debate I am not quite sure I am willing to have (for one I have a feeling all of you will disagree with me). 



> Ohh yeah cuteness is a deciding factor too.
> 
> Btw, I don't understand this about how it's better to have someone else execute the action that you consider morally bad? You simply just want to avoid the automatic feeling of guilt? Interesting... A pretty practical approach in that case I would say
> 
> But that kind of automatic guilt doesn't make a lot of sense to me either. I'm not saying I'm a sociopath or anything, just this sort of guilt seems really useless to me. I had it myself about certain people related things before but that was a really useless version too because it was not about something actually "bad".


Because the only responsibility I need to take in this situation is the action allowing the cat kill the mouse, whose outcome I will not be able to predict anyway. Perhaps the mouse got away. We don't know. But essentially, I cannot hold a cat in the same moral regard as a human being in this situation because a cat is a cat. It's innate instinct is to hunt its predators, mice being one of them. It doesn't feel guilt or regret like I do or can (and yes, I do think it's kind of dumb in some situations like I can feel bad after swathing a fly and I really think about the outcome of my action even though I know it's a fly and one of its survival mechanisms is mass-reproduction exactly because they so many of them die to similar events every day, so the consequence of dying easily is even built into the species) so even if I am responsible for letting the cat chase the mouse, this is my only responsibility. I do however not have direct responsibility over whether the mouse lives or dies. Since I will be happily unaware about the outcome (though dying is likely a greater possibility than living), I can deal with it better I guess.



Diphenhydramine said:


> @ephemereality
> 
> The head/gut thing is kind of interesting. Hadn't thought of it that way. It's quite interesting because I think @itsme45 and I are pretty different, and we don't (as far as I can see) try to term these differences in type of Socionics type (I see a lot of people include/exclude people from interaction based on whether or not they think they're part of their own type) so I think it's just an acceptance that socionics doesn't provide for all factors in a person. I actually think it may be interesting to see - especially if @randomki11s turns out to be a heart type (like a 3 for example) - a comparison between the similarities and differences in cognition-personality-behaviour between enneagram types and socionics types. (Although I feel that I have a 1ishness to myself and that 6 isn't certain.)


And I think you are correct to not do so. There's a limit to what socionics can and is meant to explain. If we want to explain every little detail of why people of the same type may still be so different (and ultimately, type is a form of psychological cognition, nothing more, though it may have some outcomes of our behavior etc) we need to turn to other systems that are capable of explaining such aspects such as enneagram. Enneagram explains why people are motivated to think in certain ways as opposed to how they _reason _when they think about these ways, so I think it is definitely a legitimate possibility to describe your differences in enneagram. And I agree, you aren't very much alike lol. I would for example consider itsme45 more "chill" in that she's less about morals, moral standards, living up to ideals that you are. 

I see why you consider type 1 but I think based on what I've observed, CP6 seems right to me. Your energy seems more nervous than the uptight righteousness of 1, and I've noticed how you sometimes start prematurely building defenses when we've argued about things in the past that strikes me as extremely CP6-like. Not quite to the degree where you lash out at people that I associate very strongly with CP6, but almost. 1 for gut seems about right. As a point of curiosity, do you know your heart fix if you believe in tritype? 

And yes, you are correct that people tend to create niche groups based on how well they jive with people without quite realizing how they jive and why they jive. I am prone to this to to a degree where I might rethink someone's type if I don't feel we jive particularly well, but I try to avoid such bias much as possible simply because it isn't sound reasoning. Ultimately what matters when it comes to sociotype is how you reason about the world around you. I do find that it's easy to over-ascribe a theory to explain everything. I have for example seen these weird attempts to merge the four humors, enneagram and MBTI into _one_ system (guess what type came up with that idea) and then I think one is trying a bit too hard. There is a similar system to that in Korea though, actually. It started as a system of health awareness, studying body type and linking this to personality traits (a little similar to socionics VI), and apparently it's extremely popular over there where you can get university degrees in the subject etc. It's too bad most of the information is in Korean and if it is in English it's usually poorly translated. I'm very interested to see how similar or different that system is to socionics in particular.

Here's an introduction: http://www.chaelab.org/SasangTypology.htm


----------



## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

@ephemereality

You basically need to play full time as a job to be super good at starcraft, otherwise you reach the upper limit. I was never good at starcraft but I am pretty good at less micro intensive online RTS.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Diphenhydramine said:


> @ephemereality
> 
> You basically need to play full time as a job to be super good at starcraft, otherwise you reach the upper limit. I was never good at starcraft but I am pretty good at less micro intensive online RTS.


It definitely does to a degree, and likely a lot more training put into it than I was willing to put into it as well. Some people are innately better though. I have a friend, I think Se base or creative, and he was just innately better and I got jealous. Yes, he was a spam clicker, but usually ranged around 120 APM or so and it was noticeable in his play as well. He simply got more shit done even if that shit was not always effective shit and of course he was therefore also higher ranked than me.

I often find that I develop a great awareness of game theory but actually practicing and utilizing this is another matter. I have for example been playing League of Legends for over a year and a half now roughly, and I think in terms of how deep my understanding is of game mechanics I think I'm around the same level as the top tier 5% players, but in actual playing I'm just average (well, close to almost above average). That's just frustrating when I feel one portion of myself lags behind. With that said, I feel LoL is easier to practice since while APM matters there too, the strategic awareness is a little different compared to SC and strategic awareness is more mental than physical, so still easier to utilize in a sense.


----------



## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

@ephemereality

I think you're right about the CP6 thing and the 1 thing, definitely even I can feel the sort of nervousness you're talking about. A fun extract: when I was younger I had a really bad fear of plastic toy spiders and snakes, I dunno what or why - one day I asked my mother to buy me a plastic spider and she was like er, are you sure? I was like yeah, and then I took it home and threw it repeatedly against the wall until I decided I wasn't afraid of it anymore. I also used to be very afraid of gas masks - I got over that by just googling "gas mask" and staring down all the pictures, lol. My heart fix would be 3. 

Thanks for the korean link.

As for RTS, it seems you can be very aware of the metagame while still being bad at the game: A lot of people learn to play simply by learning trial and error and watching others play replays etc, which is sort of how one learns a language I guess - but it is possible to know the meta very exactly but be unable, for whatever reason, to enact it in game.


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## itsme45 (Jun 8, 2012)

ephemereality said:


> Which I've btw have planned to do the past 3-4 years... lol.


Lol why doesn't that surprise me? 




> It means the ability you can perform an action in a game per minute like the amount of clicks you do on the keyboard, sends out orders, builds stuff etc (...)
> 
> And I don't know. It just felt like I couldn't progress anymore though I definitely could if I bothered to put sufficient effort into it. (...)


Yeah ok makes sense.




> Well tbh, I used to be much more uncaring one could say up until my late teens or so when something happened and I just became more empathic overall, though I have honestly always cared a lot, sometimes more, about animals than I do humans. Simply because to me humans are dicks and during my teens when I was depressed, I was extremely misanthropic and thought the world would be better off we had a great nuclear war and bombed all of us off this planet. I just couldn't reasonably justify why we are and why we are destroying ourselves the way we do. Now that I'm not an emo depressed teen I don't quite think like this as often anymore, but I don't think I'll ever truly lose my misanthropic streak. I often want to think good about humans and have some kind of faith in humanity where I can say I value the human race as a whole, but I can't. In the end we're all fucked up and we are fucking ourselves up so all I can think about then well then just fuck it. Why even bother trying to save ourselves when we are intent on making sure we'll die in the future. At least the spider did nothing more bad than being a spider.


Oh we have very different views. I can't say I'm the typical humanist either but I was never misanthropic and I wouldn't like to become that like a girl I know recently did - she turned into a misanthropic over the course of a year or so nearing age 30.  I read it's relatively common though that misanthropics like animals, she is like that too.

As for the argument for the spider having done nothing wrong. Well it invaded my territory!  Spiders also kill other animals to eat them. I kill spiders for similar instinctual reasons, not to eat them, though. So anyway I don't see myself as being of a "worse" character than the spider. 

So yeah... I keep hearing this about how people are dicks and recently I started thinking about how animals are dicks too actually  Not being serious about this at all though.

As for us fucking up ourselves - I'm not quite decided on that. It's hard to truly see what the world is heading towards. I would like to be ready for anything though, except for extinction of our race of course...




> Well, he clearly had other issues likely that were underlying this, and perhaps also greater likelihood of developing psychosis etc. Plus, being in a warzone in general is very psychologically taxing even if you are not exactly out on the field. It doesn't make the experience any worse as a doctor who has to live under this constant stress and treat wounded soldiers. Even if doctors are trained to see mutilated bodies and such, they're not superhuman. So I can see a lot of reasonable reasons why he snapped in a double sense.


Yeah, of course, he probably did have issues. Yep I'm sure being in a warzone is taxing too.




> And this is exactly my reasoning regarding killing animals as well. If we apply it to humans, then why are animals or even plants of less value? To me life is life regardless of what kind of life. I see it as a great moral hypocrisy to value one's own species over the other, especially when it's clear that we need other species in order to survive. It's one thing killing for food - then it's survival between the two of us, but in situations where we as sentient beings are capable of making aware choices of our actions, I think it is a responsibility to minimize suffering.


Yes see I told you how I don't see any moral system as truly logical. 

Right, I didn't say it was great in a moral sense, valuing one kind of living being over the other; I just freely admit that I'm a "racist" in this sense 

Btw of course I don't go out of my own way to torture animals or anything.




> With that said, I have _a lot_ to say about the ills of charity and other similar systems meant to help people in need, but I won't go into that here as it could turn into a debate I am not quite sure I am willing to have (for one I have a feeling all of you will disagree with me).


Do say it  At least I won't have a problem, at worst I disagree, so what 

But sure, if you don't feel like discussing it, no worries.




> Because the only responsibility I need to take in this situation is the action allowing the cat kill the mouse, whose outcome I will not be able to predict anyway. Perhaps the mouse got away. We don't know. But essentially, I cannot hold a cat in the same moral regard as a human being in this situation because a cat is a cat. It's innate instinct is to hunt its predators, mice being one of them. It doesn't feel guilt or regret like I do or can (and yes, I do think it's kind of dumb in some situations like I can feel bad after swathing a fly and I really think about the outcome of my action even though I know it's a fly and one of its survival mechanisms is mass-reproduction exactly because they so many of them die to similar events every day, so the consequence of dying easily is even built into the species) so even if I am responsible for letting the cat chase the mouse, this is my only responsibility. I do however not have direct responsibility over whether the mouse lives or dies. Since I will be happily unaware about the outcome (though dying is likely a greater possibility than living), I can deal with it better I guess.


Ah, I see your reasoning here. I guess we don't work the same here but I get your reasoning at least, a lot more logical than what it seemed on the surface .




> And I think you are correct to not do so. There's a limit to what socionics can and is meant to explain.


Exactly!

I find it fun anyway that we are different even being the same type 




> And yes, you are correct that people tend to create niche groups based on how well they jive with people without quite realizing how they jive and why they jive. I am prone to this to to a degree where I might rethink someone's type if I don't feel we jive particularly well, but I try to avoid such bias much as possible simply because it isn't sound reasoning.


I agree, it's affected by a lot more than type. 




> Here's an introduction: ChaeLab - Sasang Typology


Oh not another system!


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## itsme45 (Jun 8, 2012)

Diphenhydramine said:


> I think you're right about the CP6 thing and the 1 thing, definitely even I can feel the sort of nervousness you're talking about. (...)


God you sound so similar to a guy I know... not just your writing style, then.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

itsme45 said:


> God you sound so similar to a guy I know... not just your writing style, then.


 LOL it would be funny if I knew you in real life. I don't think so tho 

edit - actually, what type is he, lol?


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## itsme45 (Jun 8, 2012)

Diphenhydramine said:


> LOL it would be funny if I knew you in real life. I don't think so tho
> 
> edit - actually, what type is he, lol?


No, I doubt it heh 

I don't know his type. Maybe LSI. Or LIE. Some Se/Ni rational it seems. That's not necessarily why you remind me of him, just the writing style and the fear stuff.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Diphenhydramine said:


> @ephemereality
> 
> I think you're right about the CP6 thing and the 1 thing, definitely even I can feel the sort of nervousness you're talking about. A fun extract: when I was younger I had a really bad fear of plastic toy spiders and snakes, I dunno what or why - one day I asked my mother to buy me a plastic spider and she was like er, are you sure? I was like yeah, and then I took it home and threw it repeatedly against the wall until I decided I wasn't afraid of it anymore. I also used to be very afraid of gas masks - I got over that by just googling "gas mask" and staring down all the pictures, lol. My heart fix would be 3.


LOL. This actually reminds me a lot of my SLE cousin who is also likely 6 or 3 but after reading this I might actually think she's a 6. She did exactly the same thing but with darkness. She was afraid of the dark for some reason, so went into the cellar which is one of these old-fashioned traditional ones with a big wooden door located underground with wonky lightning etc, kind of like out of a horror movie lol, and locked herself inside until she decided she wasn't afraid of darkness anymore. I always found this logic of her extremely perplexing and irrational. How does that solve anything? I suppose if one supports CBT way of curing phobia, I guess it does. I don't know. 



> Thanks for the korean link.


No problem. 



> As for RTS, it seems you can be very aware of the metagame while still being bad at the game: A lot of people learn to play simply by learning trial and error and watching others play replays etc, which is sort of how one learns a language I guess - but it is possible to know the meta very exactly but be unable, for whatever reason, to enact it in game.


Pretty much. 



itsme45 said:


> Lol why doesn't that surprise me?


Because I suppose it actually shouldn't? I mean, I'm the master of procrastination. I don't seem to do anything else in life. 



> Oh we have very different views. I can't say I'm the typical humanist either but I was never misanthropic and I wouldn't like to become that like a girl I know recently did - she turned into a misanthropic over the course of a year or so nearing age 30.  I read it's relatively common though that misanthropics like animals, she is like that too.
> 
> As for the argument for the spider having done nothing wrong. Well it invaded my territory!  Spiders also kill other animals to eat them. I kill spiders for similar instinctual reasons, not to eat them, though. So anyway I don't see myself as being of a "worse" character than the spider.


Yes, that's fair reasoning, though one could argue that if you got a spider in your home, it means it found munchy stuff to eat so it might actually not be beneficial to kill it even though I don't like spiders. 



> So yeah... I keep hearing this about how people are dicks and recently I started thinking about how animals are dicks too actually  Not being serious about this at all though.


lol, I have a great almost literal example of this the other day. My was doodling with my phone in my bed with my female cat lying there with me, and then my male cat comes and does his male cat thing on her for reasons I have no clue, and she got so pissed off she left both of us and he himself took her place LMAO. 



> As for us fucking up ourselves - I'm not quite decided on that. It's hard to truly see what the world is heading towards. I would like to be ready for anything though, except for extinction of our race of course...


I have actually observed a pattern where the political and cultural aspect seems to becoming beta-like. Not sure how others agree on that though. 

Yes see I told you how I don't see any moral system as truly logical. 



> Right, I didn't say it was great in a moral sense, valuing one kind of living being over the other; I just freely admit that I'm a "racist" in this sense
> 
> Btw of course I don't go out of my own way to torture animals or anything.


Well, I don't think they can be logical in the same sense or standard an impersonal system can be logical, but I think we can still develop some kind of logical outcomes of what's fair etc. 



> Do say it  At least I won't have a problem, at worst I disagree, so what
> 
> But sure, if you don't feel like discussing it, no worries.


Another day maybe? I have a feeling Diph might react to what I express if anything 



> Ah, I see your reasoning here. I guess we don't work the same here but I get your reasoning at least, a lot more logical than what it seemed on the surface .


lol, so why did it seem illogical/irrational?




> Exactly!
> 
> I find it fun anyway that we are different even being the same type


Tbh, I am not sure how I'd react to an exact copy of myself anyway. I find that sharing cognitive type helps communication a lot though, because there's a sense of mutual agreement in how we conceptualize the world and understand it, so we can easily move on to discussing what we find to be the core issues.


----------



## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

@ephemereality

wrt the whole counterphobia thing, it only works for things which are an irrational fear, if you're afraid of being killed for instance then being shot at won't help cure your fear (tho it may make you courageous: but courage is not absence of fear, but triumph over it) because you force yourself to see that your fear is irrational, you intentionally expose yourself to it to show that after all, there's nothing to be scared about. 

also I have two minds about charities so I amstillinterested in hearing what you've to say about them. tho I am doing work atm (at 2145 -_-) so


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## itsme45 (Jun 8, 2012)

ephemereality said:


> LOL. This actually reminds me a lot of my SLE cousin who is also likely 6 or 3 but after reading this I might actually think she's a 6. She did exactly the same thing but with darkness. She was afraid of the dark for some reason, so went into the cellar which is one of these old-fashioned traditional ones with a big wooden door located underground with wonky lightning etc, kind of like out of a horror movie lol, and locked herself inside until she decided she wasn't afraid of darkness anymore. I always found this logic of her extremely perplexing and irrational. How does that solve anything? I suppose if one supports CBT way of curing phobia, I guess it does. I don't know.


If you are willing to face the problem, whatever problem it is, you've solved half of it already, if not all. Actually when she took the first step towards that cellar, she already solved her fear issue, by believing in herself conquering it. Well that's how I see these things anyway, I just imagine her walking down there with confidence and the determination to finish what she started. 




> Because I suppose it actually shouldn't? I mean, I'm the master of procrastination. I don't seem to do anything else in life.


That's what I meant  Get your SEE friend to talk you into loading up a website and getting the order placed. 




> lol, I have a great almost literal example of this the other day. My was doodling with my phone in my bed with my female cat lying there with me, and then my male cat comes and does his male cat thing on her for reasons I have no clue, and she got so pissed off she left both of us and he himself took her place LMAO.


Lool haha. 




> I have actually observed a pattern where the political and cultural aspect seems to becoming beta-like. Not sure how others agree on that though.


Topic for some other thread ? 




> Well, I don't think they can be logical in the same sense or standard an impersonal system can be logical, but I think we can still develop some kind of logical outcomes of what's fair etc.


Yes we're mostly on the same page there. 




> Another day maybe? I have a feeling Diph might react to what I express if anything


Or we can talk about it in private too 




> lol, so why did it seem illogical/irrational?


I originally saw it as just trying to get rid of the feeling of guilt. Well it's still that but it at least makes sense how you can achieve that. 




> Tbh, I am not sure how I'd react to an exact copy of myself anyway. I find that sharing cognitive type helps communication a lot though, because there's a sense of mutual agreement in how we conceptualize the world and understand it, so we can easily move on to discussing what we find to be the core issues.


Goddamnit, I want to try that experience of meeting myself. 

I agree on the rest


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Diphenhydramine said:


> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=39512" target="_blank">ephemereality</a></i></span>
> 
> wrt the whole counterphobia thing, it only works for things which are an irrational fear, if you're afraid of being killed for instance then being shot at won't help cure your fear (tho it may make you courageous: but courage is not absence of fear, but triumph over it) because you force yourself to see that your fear is irrational, you intentionally expose yourself to it to show that after all, there's nothing to be scared about.
> 
> also I have two minds about charities so I amstillinterested in hearing what you've to say about them. tho I am doing work atm (at 2145 -_-) so


As a starter, I agree with Zizek:


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

itsme45 said:


> If you are willing to face the problem, whatever problem it is, you've solved half of it already, if not all. Actually when she took the first step towards that cellar, she already solved her fear issue, by believing in herself conquering it. Well that's how I see these things anyway, I just imagine her walking down there with confidence and the determination to finish what she started.


That's true.


> That's what I meant  Get your SEE friend to talk you into loading up a website and getting the order placed.


She almost did lol, but then I felt guilty over wasting money I feel I really could live without spending -.-


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

itsme45 said:


> I'm asking you too, just want to avoid feeling crap regardless of how you think of the issue in a moral sense?
> 
> And kudos on finally getting to man up about those spiders.


I think it's a mix of guilt and moral sense, which I could derive from my Fi and the fact that my core type is 1w9, so there's some compulsion behind those ideas and the fact that I want to live to my internal standards. I also think that living with an EII could create a greater awareness of such issues, as my mom is rather moralistic and judgemental (plus she's a lawyer, so it seems like a bad mix), idk her subtype, but I'm pretty much sure that she's Fi base, as I notice as well her weak Te, which creeps me sometimes, plus she tends to deflect most of my arguments that are Ni based, it's like she only listens to Te or Fi arguments that have some Si information behind. Plus her humour seems to be random.

Thanks, it was a bit difficult, as I don't like spiders lol


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

Diphenhydramine said:


> @_Ananael_
> 
> I never poured salt on a snail or slug but: I did used to play with woodlice to see how much pressure you have to apply to get one to fold and I did fight a pretty extensive battle with ants in our garden. Unfortunately I had my weapon of mass destruction so they always lost (i.e. I stuck a hose down the hole where they were coming from and flooded them.)
> 
> When I was extremely young I had a fascination with red ants. We had a red ants nest in our house in M'sia and I was fascinated with following them back to their nest - which are basically leaves folded and glued into position. The gardener had to burn it though, which made me sad ): Another time when I was much older I watched ants construct a nest methodically day to day and applied heat to the nest to see how much force one would have to use to get them to mobilise in full force. Eventually though I just burned it because they are a pest, after all.


There's nothing like flooding out ants with water or soda, or trying to see how many ants you could kill by squishing them with your shoes, or poking their larvae with sticks. The summer camp nostalgia. Texas fire ants are a force to be reckoned with though. After being bit so many times, I learned to stay away from them.


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## randomki11s (Nov 6, 2013)

Dang! I feel like I'm missing out on a lot! XD I don't have my laptop with me ... So imma have to type out quotes on my phone and post it later ...This is going to be painful ... *eye twitches in annoyance*



Diphenhydramine said:


> The head/gut thing is kind of interesting. Hadn't thought of it that way. It's quite interesting because I think itsme45 and I are pretty different, and we don't (as far as I can see) try to term these differences in type of Socionics type (I see a lot of people include/exclude people from interaction based on whether or not they think they're part of their own type) so I think it's just an acceptance that socionics doesn't provide for all factors in a person. I actually think it may be interesting to see - especially if randomki11s turns out to be a heart type (like a 3 for example) - a comparison between the similarities and differences in cognition-personality-behaviour between enneagram types and socionics types.





itsme45 said:


> ... randomki11s could be a type 3, yep. And maybe 7 for head fix if not his core type.


Uh for enneagrams (last I remember anyways) I had 7 highest, 3 second highest, 8 and 9 were relatively close for third highest.



itsme45 said:


> I can imagine that in some extreme cases execution isn't a bad idea (e.g. it can depend on an arbitrary idea of who's human enough and who is not.) But I'm not going to get into this right now...
> 
> ... Oh well, moral systems still aren't too logical to me on the whole ...


... Reminds me of my Fi Dom buddy who won't ever even consider the possibility of taking a life ( I.e. execution or the death penalty ) ... even in a hypothetical sense ... while at the same time he is perfectly fine hypothetically torturing people who've committed horrible crimes because "they deserve it for what they've done" ... Cracks me up everytime XD ... Thoughts?



itsme45 said:


> Just make sure he doesn't fed up with your idea of inviting him out.


Oh, I don't think there's any danger of that ;D . I get fed up with being turned down a lot quicker than he gets fed up with me inviting him out haha. 



itsme45 said:


> ... mouse was inside the cat's mouth and then simply disappeared.
> I just really marvelled at how these cats would be so efficient at this hunting job...


I would have loved to see that lol! I like cats, and I think if I were to be compared to any kind of animal I would be most like some form of cat ... If not then probably like a wolf or something ... Seeing as your avatar is a picture of a tiger ... I'm guessing you think that too lol ;D.


Question for Everyone: If you compared yourself to any kind of animal what would you be most like?




itsme45 said:


> ... As for us fucking up ourselves - I'm not quite decided on that. It's hard to truly see what the world is heading towards. I would like to be ready for anything though, except for extinction of our race of course ...


I think apocalyptic scenarios are kinda cool tbh. To an extend, I think life is too "tame" nowadays ... You work, you eat, you sleep ... There's no "fight to survive". I wouldn't mind being in an apocalyptic scenario because I think I'd do well, and I relish the challenge. Nothing like facing extinction to make you feel alive ;D ... Maybe I'm just crazy haha XD ... Anyone ever have any near death experiences? ... I've had a couple close calls ... 

@Diphenhydramine, have you ever played Sins of a Solar Empire (relatively slower paced RTS, macro intensive, but fun)? I used to play that, and Starcraft (never got beyond gold because I didn't want to devote more time to it) along with my shooters. @ephemereality, my roommate actually got me into League of Legends like a week ago. Pretty fun , but I'm a noob and I suckass haha. I honestly didn't think I'd like it as much as I do considering I usually gravitate towards shooters. I think it's a lot less macro intensive, and you don't have to multitask nearly as much as in Starcraft. I'm thinking it places a lot more emphasis on individual tactical positioning and survivability than Starcraft, and those things are things I want to be better at with respect to shooters also, which is great IMO.


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## itsme45 (Jun 8, 2012)

ephemereality said:


> She almost did lol, but then I felt guilty over wasting money I feel I really could live without spending -.-


But if you do get more energy by using it how is that a waste of money?




randomki11s said:


> ... Reminds me of my Fi Dom buddy who won't ever even consider the possibility of taking a life ( I.e. execution or the death penalty ) ... even in a hypothetical sense ... while at the same time he is perfectly fine hypothetically torturing people who've committed horrible crimes because "they deserve it for what they've done" ... Cracks me up everytime XD ... Thoughts?


What's his argument for no death penalty?

Does he think that torture is still better than no life at all? Or rather, that torture is *worse* and these people deserve worse punishment than death?




> I would have loved to see that lol! I like cats, and I think if I were to be compared to any kind of animal I would be most like some form of cat ... If not then probably like a wolf or something ... Seeing as your avatar is a picture of a tiger ... I'm guessing you think that too lol ;D.


Yes, good guess 




> I think apocalyptic scenarios are kinda cool tbh. To an extend, I think life is too "tame" nowadays ... You work, you eat, you sleep ... There's no "fight to survive". I wouldn't mind being in an apocalyptic scenario because I think I'd do well, and I relish the challenge. Nothing like facing extinction to make you feel alive ;D ... Maybe I'm just crazy haha XD ... Anyone ever have any near death experiences? ... I've had a couple close calls ...


Sure it would be interesting, I just don't want *actual* extinction.

Near death experience, well, I was 14, and after getting off the bus, still behind the bus I stepped out to the road without looking around. I always paid attention to it after that incident.

I'm kindof sure my head surgery was near death experience too lol, I was after all put to sleep for 5-6 hours or so and it was a bit weird in the next few days after waking up. I'm told that maybe unconsciously it was a trauma for me, I dunno, consciously it wasn't.

What kind of close calls did you have?


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## randomki11s (Nov 6, 2013)

itsme45 said:


> What's his argument for no death penalty?
> Does he think that torture is still better than no life at all? Or rather, that torture is *worse* and these people deserve worse punishment than death?


Uh, I think he thinks the same as @ephemereality that "a life is a life is a life and we don't have a right to end it" type deal. He can be rather sadistic sometimes though, kinda amusing. 



itsme45 said:


> Yes, good guess


Am I right in saying your last post was during your lunch break? 



itsme45 said:


> Sure it would be interesting, I just don't want *actual* extinction.
> 
> Near death experience, well, I was 14, and after getting off the bus, still behind the bus I stepped out to the road without looking around. I always paid attention to it after that incident.
> 
> ...


That's pretty interesting, were you hit by a car? Me, I've been hit by a motorcycle when I was a kid and probably narrowly missed losing my left eye (I still have a scar on the eyelid - on the eyelash line actually - so ... pretty close call XD). I've also almost drowned at a water park (I was in the deep end of a pool away from the crowd and I was trying to dive and touch the bottom of the pool - not a smart idea considering I didn't really know how to swim at the time) ... I blacked out 3 feet from the surface, but somehow floated to the surface and regained consciousness. It's a pretty eye-opening experience accepting that you're going to die, and then not dying XD.

Reason I brought it up was that I was wondering whether it's a SLE thing to like risks/challenges/pushing-limits or it's more a personal thing? Like ... I act like a cat sometimes around my siblings when I'm at home XD ... I'd be around you, and want your attention (this happens when I get bored XD) ... and if I don't get it I keep pushing till you get angry or annoyed (a part of me just wants to get a reaction bad or good - to find a limit of how much you would tolerate). A lot of mistakes I've made, positive and negative experiences, become integrated in the same way. I consider mistakes to be a learning experience.


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## itsme45 (Jun 8, 2012)

randomki11s said:


> Am I right in saying your last post was during your lunch break?


No and I don't get the joke here  ???





> That's pretty interesting, were you hit by a car?


Nooo.




> Me, I've been hit by a motorcycle when I was a kid and probably narrowly missed losing my left eye (I still have a scar on the eyelid - on the eyelash line actually - so ... pretty close call XD). I've also almost drowned at a water park (I was in the deep end of a pool away from the crowd and I was trying to dive and touch the bottom of the pool - not a smart idea considering I didn't really know how to swim at the time) ... I blacked out 3 feet from the surface, but somehow floated to the surface and regained consciousness. It's a pretty eye-opening experience accepting that you're going to die, and then not dying XD.


Wow crazy things 

That reminds me, as a kid I had two such experiences about nearly drowning in water. (I couldn't swim yet)

One of them did involve some blacking out too, I think someone else pulled me out then. That one was in a swimming pool, I was taking my first swimming lesson heh. First one was in natural water, I was five years old running after my siblings (older than me), in shallow water and suddenly I stepped into some deep hole underwater. Like you, I somehow managed to get out of it in time. I don't think I even mentioned it to anyone afterwards? 

Then I had an incident with 220V AC, but I don't know if that'd have killed, I got lucky anyway, lost part of my consciousness but luckily my muscles in my hand couldn't hold the AC adapter anymore and it fell out of my hand and I was OK. 




> Reason I brought it up was that I was wondering whether it's a SLE thing to like risks/challenges/pushing-limits or it's more a personal thing? Like ... I act like a cat sometimes around my siblings when I'm at home XD ... I'd be around you, and want your attention (this happens when I get bored XD) ... and if I don't get it I keep pushing till you get angry or annoyed (a part of me just wants to get a reaction bad or good - to find a limit of how much you would tolerate). A lot of mistakes I've made, positive and negative experiences, become integrated in the same way. I consider mistakes to be a learning experience.


I'm like that too. 

As for risks though, I don't like to take unnecessary risks in some cases. It depends on how I perceive my own limits at the time. I usually perceive them well (this doesn't mean they can't be improved ), so that's when I decide I don't want to take a risk when I feel it's beyond limits.


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## randomki11s (Nov 6, 2013)

itsme45 said:


> No and I don't get the joke here  ???


Dammit I was wrong. I saw you posted at roughly 5AM my time, which is around noon in europe. I made an inference that it was lunchtime because I'm guessing you work, thus if you're replying at around noon must be lunchtime/lunch-break. Obviously I was wrong. Oops. :laughing:



itsme45 said:


> One of them did involve some blacking out too, I think someone else pulled me out then. That one was in a swimming pool, I was taking my first swimming lesson heh. First one was in natural water, I was five years old running after my siblings (older than me), in shallow water and suddenly I stepped into some deep hole underwater. Like you, I somehow managed to get out of it in time. I don't think I even mentioned it to anyone afterwards?


Yea I never told my parents (still haven't), or anyone else till in recent years. Lucky you had people to pull you out ;D.



itsme45 said:


> Then I had an incident with *220V AC*, but I don't know if that'd have killed, I got lucky anyway, lost part of my consciousness but luckily my muscles in my hand couldn't hold the AC adapter anymore and it fell out of my hand and I was OK.


Whoa that's pretty intersting. We don't get 220V here in the U.S. only 120V. Another guess (because I like the challenge): Are you from Moldova or Belarus? (I don't think Ukraine is a "small" country, and Turkey isn't technically all in Europe).


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## itsme45 (Jun 8, 2012)

randomki11s said:


> Dammit I was wrong. I saw you posted at roughly 5AM my time, which is around noon in europe. I made an inference that it was lunchtime because I'm guessing you work, thus if you're replying at around noon must be lunchtime/lunch-break. Obviously I was wrong. Oops. :laughing:


No, I don't work at an office if you meant that 




> Yea I never told my parents (still haven't), or anyone else till in recent years. Lucky you had people to pull you out ;D.


I just didn't think of mentioning it I guess. I forgot about the whole thing next second  I'm like that... I bet you too 




> Whoa that's pretty intersting. We don't get 220V here in the U.S. only 120V. Another guess (because I like the challenge): Are you from Moldova or Belarus? (I don't think Ukraine is a "small" country, and Turkey isn't technically all in Europe).


No. I'm not in Eastern Europe


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## GreenCoyote (Nov 2, 2009)

In my opinion you can totally have a high Ne being SLE. its your role function so according to text... you can periodically work on it. its just that it is something you forget about from time to time and go back to Se or it manifests as simple versus complex. a Ne user might come up with grand idea A! and you might come up with weak idea b... wahhh wahhh. ha ha

yeah. but totally possible. don't listen to the haters.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

Diphenhydramine said:


> the point of Business relations is that the people are too psychologically contrasting to care about one another personally or emotionally


I find this disturbing. Does the theory really dictate to me who I am capable and incapable of caring about based on our valued functions? That's horrifying.

My cat is not even a human, she doesn't have any valued functions as far as we know. We are extremely psychologically contrasting, far more than one would be with one's conflictor, even. So by this rationale, I am incapable of caring for my cat. That is utterly fucking disturbing. I'm sorry.


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## Raawx (Oct 9, 2013)

randomki11s said:


> So I'm an SLE - Ti ... and I think I have higher Ne than normal ... how does that work? ... ideas?
> 
> [see signature]
> |
> ...


It doesn't.

You're probably not an SLE.


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## MightyLizardKing (Jun 7, 2014)

randomki11s said:


> So I'm an SLE - Ti ... and I think I have higher Ne than normal ... how does that work? ... ideas?
> 
> [see signature]
> |
> ...


If Ne is your role (which it would be if you're SLE) you may just be more aware of when you're using Ne compared to, say, Se and Ti, and falsely estimate the 
amount you actually use it?

There was a point back in the day where I thought I was an EII, but it actually had to do with the fact that I was incredibly (and unhealthily) obsessed with Fi (which is my actually my POLR)


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

counterintuitive said:


> I find this disturbing. Does the theory really dictate to me who I am capable and incapable of caring about based on our valued functions? That's horrifying.
> 
> My cat is not even a human, she doesn't have any valued functions as far as we know. We are extremely psychologically contrasting, far more than one would be with one's conflictor, even. So by this rationale, I am incapable of caring for my cat. That is utterly fucking disturbing. I'm sorry.


A theory never dictates anything, it's just a theory, not a dictator.  Anyway, I don't agree that people can't care for each other in Business relations. I'm quite fine with ESIs in terms of that.

Also, in general I would say that except for the most simple types of relations (intraquadra and superego/conflictor), there are too many factors involved to show simple clear patterns like that. And even where patterns can be shown it's never about emotional factors such as ability to care for each other. It's about understanding or not understanding each other in certain ways.


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## Rabid Seahorse (Mar 10, 2015)

It's possible although it'd be a strange combo. Ne is in the Superego so yes it is unvalued and "weak" but it's also a 2-dimensional function so in a way it's "stronger" than your dual-seeking function. A lot of SLE's I know in real life are better at Ne tasks (idea-generating, seeing opportunities and hidden potentials) than at Ni tasks like predicting consequences (although they _prefer_ predicting consequences more).


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