# SP Dominant people, how do YOU know your primary instinct is Self-Preservation?



## Karkino (May 25, 2017)

Hi folk!

I'm going off a new tangent here and want to ask people on why they think they are this type/instinct/tritype etc.

So, this thread is all about you SP doms! Regardless of your core enneatype/MBTI/Tritype/etc., why do you think you're an SP dom?

Not SP so I'm gonna skip my two cents on that one...

Thanks in advance!


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## Handsome Dyke (Oct 4, 2012)

I don't really look at deciding on my type as "knowing." I look at it as choosing the most relevant category. 

I'm sure that I'm an Sp dom because I can trace almost everything I get riled up about to concern about individual survival.


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## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

I look very, very Sp/Sx.

Also: boundaries, walled up, retentive of energy.


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## Janna (Aug 31, 2018)

I'm perhaps exaggerating a bit, but you could say that my first reaction to any suggestion is to be concerned about its possible interference with my individual freedom and independence.

It doesn't mean that I don't eventually want to do the things - I may be very happy to do them, but guarding my personal space is my first reaction. For instance, when my son developed a passion for football: my first instinct was to mourn for the time I'd have to spend enabling this hobby. The second reaction was to be really happy for him for finding a new passion, and of course I encouraged him to pursue this interest.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Idk I feel like I'm dying pretty much all the time


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

My husband is a very clear Sp dominant. He knew immediately when I described the instinct variants to him, and I easily concurred. His major concerns are his home being secure and comfortable, having stable finances and stable work, and maintaining being independent and free to pursue his personal interests. Basically having all his life resources being stable and well-maintained so he can do what he wants to do.


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

angelfish said:


> My husband is a very clear Sp dominant. He knew immediately when I described the instinct variants to him, and I easily concurred. His major concerns are his home being secure and comfortable, having stable finances and stable work, and maintaining being independent and free to pursue his personal interests. Basically having all his life resources being stable and well-maintained so he can do what he wants to do.


What is his MBTI type? I’m just trying to determine if there’s Si at play in this sp since they can overlap, but overall this is what I do see important to sp-doms. I actually don’t think being retentive of energy or guarding one’s personal space is necessarily sp, more introversion and related to core type/wing (Type 5 concerns, for instance). Though, sp-last might expend more energy/resources without realizing the effect it has on their well-being.


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

mistakenforstranger said:


> What is his MBTI type? I’m just trying to determine if there’s Si at play in this sp since they can overlap, but overall this is what I do see important to sp-doms. I actually don’t think being retentive of energy or guarding one’s personal space is necessarily sp, more introversion and related to core type/wing (Type 5 concerns, for instance). Though, sp-last might expend more energy/resources without realizing the effect it has on their well-being.


Si indeed. He's ISFJ. And a 9 also - tendency towards body grounding, comfort seeking, etc. 

FWIW I believe both of my parents are also sp-dominant (ESFJ 2w1 sp/soc mom, INTP 5w6 sp/sx dad). Of course they manifest sp a little differently. Mom is very much the resource provider and dad the guardian, designer, and groundskeeper of his castle.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

@angelfish my Ex (also likely Sp-first).

At first I got confused because Sp is so SJ-like in many ways - my ex is very far from that stereotype, very much INTJ in every aspect, lol.

Security comes first, it's paramount. I actually learnt a lot from being with them and I'm forever grateful for that. I also discovered I'm just a bit waywardly intense to keep up with them. I think I also caused a lot of stress


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## 74893H (Dec 27, 2017)

Because I know I'm So-last and out of the Sp/Sx and Sx/Sp descriptions Sp/Sx seems the most likely, but I don't really know for sure. Instincts are confusing.


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## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

mistakenforstranger said:


> I actually don’t think being retentive of energy or guarding one’s personal space is necessarily sp


It is quite naive to think that the impulse towards preserving the self does not involve an increases awareness of boundaries and energy expenditure. It's in the name.


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## ComingInClutch (Jul 15, 2019)

From an early age, even though I consider myself sociable and personable, I've been acutely aware of boundaries and was EXTREMELY sensitive to feeling like my privacy was invaded.


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## Coburn (Sep 3, 2010)

All the things sp can't help but be concerned about I'm concerned about. Those areas or topics I find necessary or worthwhile for living are all sp-related.

I also know an sp-last person and it baffles me to this day how she survives. She de-prioritizes literally everything sp I hold sacred.


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Daeva said:


> It is quite naive to think that the impulse towards preserving the self does not involve an increases awareness of boundaries and energy expenditure. It's in the name.


Nice selective quoting...



mistakenforstranger said:


> I actually don’t think being retentive of energy or guarding one’s personal space is necessarily sp, *more introversion and related to core type/wing (Type 5 concerns, for instance)*.


Introverts naturally retain their energy. 

Here's Jung saying it. 



> At this point a mere general indication must suffice; on the one hand, I need only point to the peculiarity of the extravert, which constantly urges him to spend and propagate himself in every way, and, on the other, *to the tendency of the introvert to defend himself against external claims, to conserve himself from any expenditure of energy directly related to the object, thus consolidating for himself the most secure and impregnable position.*


Guarding one's personal space can be related to 5, which was also written earlier by a sp-5, who is also an introvert, so I think that needs to be taken into account. 



Janna said:


> *I may be very happy to do them, but guarding my personal space is my first reaction.* For instance, when my son developed a passion for football: my first instinct was to mourn for the time I'd have to spend enabling this hobby. The second reaction was to be really happy for him for finding a new passion, and of course I encouraged him to pursue this interest.


Would say an extroverted sp-2 "guard their personal space" as their first reaction? Do extroverted Type 2s even have boundaries? :laughing: 

Why not any mention here (besides angelfish's post) of what you actually need to preserve the self? Money, employment, food, health, shelter, etc. These are what sp-doms are concerned with/neurotic about.


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## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

mistakenforstranger said:


> Nice selective quoting...


Oh bite me. My response was written with your entire post in mind.



> Introverts naturally retain their energy. Here's Jung saying it.


What Jung has to say is irrelevant. He does not know the Enneagram - his ideas do not apply here.



> Guarding one's personal space can be related to 5, which was also written earlier by a sp-5, who is also an introvert, so I think that needs to be taken into account.


The language you use here is important: "can be." Even if other types "can" be self-protective, the Self Preservation type will always be.

Yes, even when said type is an 'extroverted 2'... Personal space includes the home and hearth (family); a concept vital to the Self Pres domain.



> Would say an extroverted sp-2 "guard their personal space" as their first reaction? Do extroverted Type 2s even have boundaries? :laughing:


I know this wasn't in response to something I said, but on face value this is incredibly typist and highly inaccurate. Yes, they have boundaries, especially so when Sp is in the dominant position.



> Why not any mention here (besides angelfish's post) of what you actually _need_ to preserve the self? Money, employment, food, health, shelter, etc. These are what sp-doms are concerned with/neurotic about.


_Myopic_, is all I have to say about this. The world is larger than how you choose to perceive it.


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Daeva said:


> What Jung has to say is irrelevant. He does not know the Enneagram - his ideas do not apply here.


How is it irrelevant? Someone's personality doesn't change depending on which lens you look through it. It's quite naive that you think Jung's ideas have no bearing on one's Enneagram type. Even Naranjo/Riso-Hudson correlated Jungian functions to Enneagram types. 



> The language you use here is important: "can be." Even if other types "can" be self-protective, the Self Preservation type will always be.


Always? No, a sp-5 is one of the most self-protective types, being a withdrawn type whose fixation is around hoarding their space/energy. Other sp-types are not as self-protective. So the core type needs to be taken into account, which often isn't in these discussions. 



> Yes, even when said type is an 'extroverted 2'... Personal space includes the home and hearth (family); a concept vital to the Self Pres domain.


Now you're saying "family" is a sp-concept when it pertains to 2s? I'll agree with you about the home.



Daeva said:


> Think about it, what Social-last is invested in family, an inherently Social group?


By the way, if you want to see an excellent post on sp, read @*Lady of Clockwork*'s in that thread: https://www.personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/1308909-sp-instinct-thread.html



> I know this wasn't in response to something I said, but on face value this is incredibly typist and highly inaccurate. Yes, they have boundaries, especially so when Sp is in the dominant position.


If you say so, but Enneagram types influence expression of instincts (and vice-versa). 



> Myopic, is all I have to say about this. The world is larger than how you choose to perceive it.


Same to you. It's basics about sp, but whatever...


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## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

mistakenforstranger said:


> How is it irrelevant? Someone's personality doesn't change depending on which lens you look through it. It's quite naive that you think Jung's ideas have no bearing on one's Enneagram type. Even Naranjo/Riso-Hudson correlated Jungian functions to Enneagram types.


You are using one system to explain another. It is begging for misconceptions. If you can actually demonstrate that Jung's ideas have bearing on the Enneagram, you'd be the first. Naranjo and RH made loose and incredibly brief connections, but no actual correlation was ever established. As such, this is no place to discuss Jung's types.



> Always? No, a sp-5 is one of the most self-protective types, being a withdrawn type whose fixation is around hoarding their space/energy. Other sp-types are not as self-protective. So the core type needs to be taken into account, which often isn't in these discussions.


Of course the instinct never operates independently from core type. That's not at all what I'm arguing.

You say that "Other sp-types are not as self-protective." I wager you think Sp5 is more self-protective than Sp7. You'd be correct, in some aspect. However, both being Sp, both are self-protective.



> Now you're saying "family" is a sp-concept when it pertains to 2s? I'll agree with you about the home.


Family is strongly connected to home/hearth. Family, while a social concept abstractly, has inseparable ties to Sp in reality. Self Pres 2 is known to be extremely protective of its _cubs_.

You 'quote' me without actually sourcing the original post. Come on, don't be so dishonest. When did I write this post? It sure isn't from this thread. People's ideas evolve over time, you should try it instead of stalking my old posts just to "get me." Learn. Adapt. Grow. You are reminding me why I stopped responding to your posts in the first place.

In case it isn't clear:
_Family _is both Social and Self Pres, and can be interpreted in light of either instinct. In this case, I emphasize family + home/hearth. 



> By the way, if you want to see an excellent post on sp, read @*Lady of Clockwork*'s in that thread: https://www.personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/1308909-sp-instinct-thread.html


Thanks, I already read it.



> If you say so, but types influence expression of instincts (and vice-versa).


I never claimed otherwise...



> Same to you. It's basics about sp, but whatever...


You are being myopic in that you only accept the definitions as outlined by the authorities ("basics about sp") while bristling at the thought that self preservation is about preserving the self: preserving one's energy, preserving one's boundaries,... Self Pres last, even a 5, will just suck at this.


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Daeva said:


> You are using one system to explain another. It is begging for misconceptions. If you can actually demonstrate that Jung's ideas have bearing on the Enneagram, you'd be the first. Naranjo and RH made loose and incredibly brief connections, but no actual correlation was ever established. As such, this is no place to discuss Jung's types.


On the contrary, it needs to inform the discussion because people often mistake their cognitive functions/Jungian type for instinctual behavior leading to misconceptions. Personalities are not isolated systems, so saying it has no place here is what's that word? Myopic.



> Of course the instinct never operates independently from core type. That's not at all what I'm arguing.
> 
> You say that "Other sp-types are not as self-protective." I wager you think Sp5 is more self-protective than Sp7. You'd be correct, in some aspect. However, both being Sp, both are self-protective.


Being self-protective isn't the same as self-preservation, so I see self-protection as more 5, which was what I was originally responding to in terms of "guarding one's space" and its relation to 5, since it was stated by a 5 in this thread.



> Family is strongly connected to home/hearth. Family, while a social concept abstractly, has inseparable ties to Sp in reality.


I think family, if anything, is related to Social. I don't see how it has "inseparable ties" to sp besides that you claim it does. Your original post that I quoted from discussing why it makes you Social-last made more sense. 



> Self Pres 2 is known to be extremely protective of its _cubs_.


In general, most 2s are, especially with their arrow to 8, so I don't see how it's relevant to sp-2 specifically.



> You 'quote' me without actually sourcing the original post. Come on, don't be so dishonest. When did I write this post? It sure isn't from this thread. People's ideas evolve over time, you should try it instead of stalking my old posts just to "get me." Learn. Adapt. Grow. You are reminding me why I stopped responding to your posts in the first place.


Please. It's from your post in "that thread" with Lady of Clockwork's post, so the source is right there. It's one of your most recent posts, and I only saw it because I was re-reading posts from that thread during this discussion. It can strike one as inconsistency rather than evolution, if your position changes, or at least, has a different shade of meaning across separate threads within a reasonable span of time.



> You are being myopic in that you only accept the definitions as outlined by the authorities ("basics about sp") while bristling at the thought that self preservation is about preserving the self: preserving one's energy, preserving one's boundaries,... Self Pres last, even a 5, will just suck at this.


I don't bristle at the thought, and see why you claim it does; however, my main point, which you have now made into something else entirely, is that other factors of one's personality should be taken into account when assessing instincts. I appreciated Lady of Clockwork's post because she does a good job of speaking to the sp-instinct without clouding it with her Enneagram/Jungian type.


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## Janna (Aug 31, 2018)

mistakenforstranger said:


> Would say an extroverted sp-2 "guard their personal space" as their first reaction? Do extroverted Type 2s even have boundaries? :laughing:
> 
> Why not any mention here (besides angelfish's post) of what you actually need to preserve the self? Money, employment, food, health, shelter, etc. These are what sp-doms are concerned with/neurotic about.


I don't know, I wasn't trying to sum up all sp dominants. It's a fair guess that a sp extrovert Two would indeed have very different motivations, instincts and fears than I do. 

I'm also concerned about employment, money and shelter, although only to a degree that doesn't really set me apart from other people in a very visible way. To me, the point of money is not to buy expensive stuff, but to be independent (~ guard my personal space) and not having to ask others for anything. For money I need employment, because unfortunately I don't have any other source of income. The point of shelter is fairly obvious (who's not concerned about having shelter?), but my home doesn't have to be especially grand. For instance, I've never for a second grieved for the nicer two-income apartment that I've lost because of leaving an unsatisfactory relationship. Personal space first, always.

I wish I was obsessed with health, I'd live a lot longer. Unfortunately that's the part of sp I'm missing.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

mistakenforstranger said:


> Would say an extroverted sp-2 "guard their personal space" as their first reaction? Do extroverted Type 2s even have boundaries? :laughing:





Daeva said:


> I know this wasn't in response to something I said, but on face value this is incredibly typist and highly inaccurate. Yes, they have boundaries, especially so when Sp is in the dominant position.


Obviously a joke because of the laughing face, but I don't find it typist, _or_ inaccurate, 'lack of boundaries' (or something like that) is as important for Type Two as 'maintaining boundaries' is for gut types (including sp-last gut types, obviously), I think that goes down to core of the type, I think type 2 is a good type to look at to see wtf sp even is

(not that 2s don't have any boundaries, obviously everyone does, but I'd posit that 2 actually borrows theirs from one of their wings(1 gut boundaries, 3 attachment-type boundaries) or line to 8, or non-Enneagram actual person things, imo 2 ~as a type~ doesn't have boundaries)

I'm really an instincts atheist now, but I find it fun to talk about nonetheless :laughing: 

anyways



> I actually don’t think being retentive of energy or guarding one’s personal space is necessarily sp


energy seems like a very specific concept to me and I'd need to hear it discussed as regards all the instincts to formulate an opinion (it seems that 'where you get your energy' is the extrovert/introvert question and that can get translated into instincts but that just makes sx and so extroversion and sp introversion), so I want to know what sp does with energy that is different from so or sx, and that means all the instincts are energy-related


And I don't think 'guarding one's personal space' is necessarily sp, but maybe being particularly cued into personal space is a sp thing? except it's also bit of a 5, 6ish thing too, think even say so/sx cp 6s might be territorial at times for example and every 5 needs _their space_ 

just hoping i'll say something that'll make someone else say something and keep the conversation going, I have no idea what sp is, never have understood, ultimately I think it's just a flawed concept

edit: theory - the 'counter-type' can be the type working against the instinct?

i.e. could sp 2 be self-destructive, opposite of self-guarding, 'it's ok you can hurt me'? or using self-destructive behavior to gain love and attention (a la Lana del Rey*), i.e. the instinct isn't the goal, but the means?

*or Aurora is a sp 4 and think it describes disintegration to 2 'I went too far when I was begging on my knees
When I cut my hands, so you could stand and watch me bleed'

that kind of thing seems stereotypically sp 2 but it's very much 'unhealth'

edit ii: i just find the concept of sp 2 very confusing, makes sense to see a sx 2 looking for love from a lover primarily, so 2 from a group primarily, but sp 2...from bread primarily??? can never quite make it work


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## Dare (Nov 8, 2016)

Nissa Nissa said:


> Obviously a joke because of the laughing face, but I don't find it typist, _or_ inaccurate, 'lack of boundaries' (or something like that) is as important for Type Two as 'maintaining boundaries' is for gut types (including sp-last gut types, obviously), I think that goes down to core of the type, *I think type 2 is a good type to look at to see wtf sp even is*
> 
> *just hoping i'll say something that'll make someone else say something and keep the conversation going*, I have no idea what sp is...


In the spirit of keeping the conversation going... 

Fwiw my homemaker mother was a 2 SP. From one perspective she had zero boundaries within our family (she had plenty of boundaries beyond the property line/my father/me though). She was incapable of even directly setting a boundary to her own child; "wait until your father gets home!" was what I'd hear if I ever sufficiently displeased her. If it was my (also SP) father himself who was behaving in a questionable manner, there was no recourse available to dependent/soft her -- she just swallowed it, perhaps silently growing a seed of resentment or 'distancing' herself. 

By comparison, no-boundaries-in-a-romantic-relationship SX me would never tolerate out-there behavior from my future husband -- I will speak my mind (even if I prefer to think on it first). In a way, speaking creates intimacy which reduces boundaries being held. Not saying something, even if you carry on in behavior, is very much placing a wall there (or perhaps is done due to the wall there). It's not always obvious what precisely people mean when they talk about boundaries/walls/distance. In one sense my dutiful mother was truly selfless, in another sense she very much held herself back.

And the latter wasn't lost on me as a child. The crusts-cut-off lifestyle while my workaholic, savings-obsessed father earn$ away, was lovely & all, but let's get real. From my perspective it was as if two people got together and agreed to run a business called 'homemaking'. It was formal, cool like clockwork. No complaints, but no kisses either. My mother's behavior screamed 'devoted' but she never ran to the door upon his return. He was even more formal/colder (sp/so vs sp/sx). If these were Russian sleeper agents using this rouse as cover, that would have explained everything perfectly to my SX mind (somehow that would have been a relief). But no doubt they were just as baffled by my just-warming-up-here early SX antics (fortunately my mother had a sense of humor).

It's interesting to note that it was only in SP things where it appears my mom had no boundaries. Really, it's just her currency, and of course it is -- she's SP. So, no surprise she gave materially ("you got caught in the rain? Let me make you something hot to eat"). Note that SP is the countertype for 2. 

I'm fascinated by where people put their boundaries both in terms of against what but also the position in relation to themselves (far out or not). My SP 6 father has walls in every direction, right up at the perimeter. Since I'm a 5 sx/sp I have quite a bit of variance in wall placement (it can be more like a gate with me). It's curious how 'instinctive' this is in people -- it doesn't seem either highly controllable or consciously chosen. 

I see enneagram instincts as fundamentally about boundaries & focus (walls could be considered a subset of focus -- like blinders that keep you from focusing on the 'wrong' thing). All SP, no matter what their core type is, are 'self' bounded -- they aren't fundamentally identified with anything beyond the self. My mom was a homemaker, she was giving -- but she was getting something out of it, it was still about her, it was still about SP. I don't discount what she did, I admire her very much (and SP generally), I just know the type 2 routine: 'doing it for you, for me.' Don't let appearances fool you. 

I also think that while core type very much influence the instinct we are talking ocean vs river here, hence this situation where a 5 daughter can look at her 2 mother and say, "my, what a large wall you had there mom"  Not that I should talk -- I just wall up in a different context. All instinctual types do.

Beatrice Chestnut says she's a SP 2 so hopefully her description of the type is reliable (even though there will still be variance, especially in regards to health level):

* *




The Self-Preservation Two - "Privilege" (Countertype)

This "cute" Two expresses pride and a need for protection through youthful ways of gaining attention and affection. The unconscious strategy the Self-Preservation Two employs is to "seduce" like a child in the presence of grown-ups. This represents both an unconscious need to be taken care of and a sense that children are naturally loveable, inherently deserving of affection, and usually more readily liked than adults. This Two has a childlike quality in presentation and emotional expression-no matter how old they are, this Two looks youthful or young. While the Sexual Two can seem overly adult, wild, and seductive in the usual sense of the term, the Self-Preservation Two unconsciously aims to attract love and attention through being cute and expressing a childlike sense of need.

As humans, we have a natural love of children, a biological imperative that ensures that we will care for children who are dependent on us for their survival. Children want and need to be loved not for what they do for others, but for who they are. This is a basic need of any child. So what is prominent in the Self-Preservation Two is this pure, young need for love. This Two "remains little" as a way of evoking care from others without having to ask for it, just as children shouldn't have to ask for love and care or aren't mature enough to articulate this kind of request directly.

Self-Preservation Twos thus unconsciously draw on the universal love of children by adopting the stance of a cute, youthful person. This presentation is a way of inviting people to like them and take care of them, just as a child's "cuteness" inspires people to love them. This is their way of expressing the idea that, deep down, they want to be loved not for being pleasing or giving to others, or because of qualifications, performance, or achievements, but just because of who they are; they want to be loved for just existing. This Self-Preservation Two pattern has this person taking the position of the child in the family because a child's needs naturally come first.

The name for the Self-Preservation Two, "Privilege," refers to the idea suggested by this personality: "I’m young, and therefore I'm the most important." This reflects this subtype's (unconscious) assertion of a kind of childlike priority, wanting others to place a special emphasis on meeting his or her needs. These Twos don't want to have to prove their importance to be important. Despite wanting to be the center of attention, they experience no accompanying feeling of having to do anything for it. They want to be seen without showing themselves.

Self-Preservation Twos need to feel unique and special-they have a compulsion about being the "cute" girl or boy who is liked by everybody. They charm or "give themselves" to others to remain the favorite. They excel at being the teacher's pet.

It's less easy to see pride in this type. *The Self-Preservation Two is the countertype of the Twos; it's a Two that doesn't look like a Two. While the energetic direction of the flow of the Two personality (with its focus on seduction) is up and out toward others, the self-preservation instinct this Two has causes them to express more ambivalence about relationship. This Two moves toward others, but also has a "counter-move" away from others out of a need for self-protection. This Two is tender and sweet, but more guarded than the other Twos.* [The underlined describes how my mother was perfectly]

*As might be expected from a more childlike character, the Self-Preservation Two is more fearful, less trusting, and more ambivalent about connections with others. Although these Twos may not be aware of how fearful they are-all Twos repress feelings-they may have a more pronounced need than other Twos to protect themselves in the presence of others, which might be perceived by some as an invisible "wall." The ambivalence about connection experienced by this type takes the form of mixed or conflicting feelings about establishing close connections with others, especially important or intimate others.

Like other Twos, Self-Preservation Twos focus on meeting others' needs as a way of gaining love, but they also feel a strong opposing pull to hide or withdraw in light of the threat of disapproval and rejection inherent in interacting with others. On the one hand, people and relationships feel compelling and important, but on the other hand, being close to people seems fraught with danger because it includes the possibilities of losing oneself or being judged, taken advantage of, humiliated, or rejected.*

In this "youthful" Two, self-importance, irresponsibility, humor, playfulness, and charm are in the foreground. Until they engage in self-awareness work, this Two can be easily hurt and is hypertensive to slights or anything that might sound like criticism or disapproval. They may have tantrums or sulk or withdraw when upset. Feeling hurt can result in pouting, angry recriminations, or childish accusations. They may manipulate through an expression of feeling instead of stepping up and saying what they want or what they dislike.

Dependency is prominent in this subtype, but mostly unconscious. These Twos, like other Twos, don't want to see themselves as needy or dependent on others, and yet they can engage in a pattern of remaining unconsciously dependent, wanting someone to take care of them, or engineering situations in which people end up taking care of them. Because of this childlike stance of (unconscious) dependency, the Self-Preservation Two has less freedom; a child, after all, is rarely, if ever, completely free. So these Twos often yearn to be free while at the same time yoking themselves to people in unhealthy or unconscious ways.

Although, like other Twos, Self-Preservation Twos can be very competent, on a deeper level they don't want to have to take responsibility for themselves. The thought of taking charge of themselves fills them with anxiety. They can wonder: "What am I to do with myself?" They have an underlying desire to be a child who will be excused for their ignorance, innocence, and the feelings they might express on a whim or "just because." In more mature Self-Preservation Twos, however, their need for structure can make them more methodical and more organized than other Twos.

Self-Preservation Twos can be self-indulgent and hedonistic. They are drawn to cultivate a sense of "euphoria" through parties, shopping, drinking or indulging in food and fun-anything to distract themselves from having to contact themselves. They are sensation-seeking, and they look for pleasurable experiences to distract themselves from feelings of self-abandonment and inner deprivation.

This Two fantasizes a lot (about being loved or admired) and idealizes people, especially in the early stages of relationships. They unconsciously project their power onto others whom they see as all-good as a way of not having to be "good enough" or responsible themselves, which can make it hard for them to own their own power or have equal and truly contactful relationships.

The Self-Preservation Two can look like a Self-Preservation Six in that they are fearful and ambivalent about relationships, but in the Six the emphasis is on a more generalized fear, while this Two's fear mainly manifests in relationships. This Two can also resemble a Type Four in that they express more emotionality and a longing for love, but they repress their needs and feelings and focus on others more than Fours do.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

What does it mean to have boundaries?


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

@*Nissa Nissa*



> Obviously a joke because of the laughing face,


Thanks for recognizing the "social" cues. :wink: I was joking, but that doesn't mean there isn't some truth to it. By the way, you're Social last now? :thinking2: 



> but I don't find it typist, or inaccurate, 'lack of boundaries' (or something like that) is as important for Type Two as 'maintaining boundaries' is for gut types (including sp-last gut types, obviously), I think that goes down to core of the type, I think type 2 is a good type to look at to see wtf sp even is


Ah, interesting, since I did search "Enneagram Type 2 boundaries" before I made the comment, so as not to offend or be inaccurate, and here were some of the results!



> Twos excel at making connections and empathizing with the needs and feelings of others. Focused on relationships, they are good at supporting others, but find it difficult to turn their attention toward themselves and their own needs. Emotionally sensitive, they want to be accepted and liked by others, and will adapt or change to earn this approval. *Setting personal boundaries can be challenging*, and they sometimes relieve the pressure through emotional outbursts.


https://www.enneagramworldwide.com/types/the-giver/



> *Set clear boundaries with the Two in your life.* If they are over-giving, firmly and gently assure them you know what you need and can give it to yourself. This can break the trance of over-giving. You also model grounded self-care.


https://lesliehershberger.com/type-2-the-giver/



> Twos get into difficulty, however, when they begin to attend to others' needs without adequately dealing with their own. They can get into denial about the extent of their own needs while insisting that their only concern is taking care of others. *At such times, Twos may develop "boundary problems." They disregard their own boundaries, doing things for others that take them away from what they need to do for themselves, and they disregard the boundaries of others, doing things for others that they do not necessarily want done. When others feel crowded by the Twos' efforts to help, and try to set boundaries with them, Twos can feel hurt and insecure about the relationship and feel rejected.*


This is Riso-Hudson's content: https://sites.google.com/site/upatel8/personlitytype2

So, using "boundaries" as criteria for sp-doms can be complicated, which is why I brought it up in 2s, and therefore is it a reliable measurement for determining if one is sp? That's all. I'm glad you understood. 

I also think other instincts can have "boundaries" too, but it really depends on the context. Of course, with sx, they won't want boundaries between themselves and their partner because then how can you get close, but that doesn't mean a sx-dom will be boundary-less with others/everyone they know who they have no connection with, right? Couldn't they be very guarded in general to many others who they feel no sx connection with? I could also see the case where Social and Sexual types might have been hurt in social situations or past relationships and would therefore enact boundaries as a defense mechanism too. 



> anyways
> 
> energy seems like a very specific concept to me and I'd need to hear it discussed as regards all the instincts to formulate an opinion (it seems that 'where you get your energy' is the extrovert/introvert question and that can get translated into instincts *but that just makes sx and so extroversion and sp introversion*), so I want to know what sp does with energy that is different from so or sx, and that means all the instincts are energy-related


Yes, you see the dilemma. I do think Social being in one's stacking (as either dominant/secondary) might make an Introvert who is comfortable appear Extroverted from time-to-time. Stephen Colbert is a so/sx Introvert, for example. Introverts, in general, need to recharge their energy away from others after a certain period of time too, but if they're Social or Sexual they'll feel that pull to want to engage again in others or their significant other, as I can't imagine that going away (i.e instinctual). I think the Jung quote is telling from this perspective, where if we're thinking in these terms many so and sx Introverts could mistake themselves for sp.



> And I don't think 'guarding one's personal space' is necessarily sp, but maybe being particularly cued into personal space is a sp thing? *except it's also bit of a 5, 6ish thing too*, think even say so/sx cp 6s might be territorial at times for example and every 5 needs their space


Exactly. Also, introverts need their alone time/space, regardless if they're sp or not. 



> just hoping i'll say something that'll make someone else say something and keep the conversation going, I have no idea what sp is, never have understood, ultimately I think it's just a flawed concept


LOL



> edit: theory - the 'counter-type' can be the type working against the instinct?
> 
> i.e. could sp 2 be self-destructive, opposite of self-guarding, 'it's ok you can hurt me'? or using self-destructive behavior to gain love and attention (a la Lana del Rey*), i.e. the instinct isn't the goal, but the means?


Hmm, I actually think Lana del Rey is sx/so at this point, which may be why she's that way. She's always seemed sx-dom to me.



> *or Aurora is a sp 4 and think it describes disintegration to 2 'I went too far when I was begging on my knees
> When I cut my hands, so you could stand and watch me bleed'


Oh wow, and yes, that makes sense. I don't know if she's sp-4, as I'm not familar with her work, but that sounds like unhealthy 2-ish disintegration. Thanks for your thoughts.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

mistakenforstranger said:


> Thanks for recognizing the "social" cues. :wink: I was joking, but that doesn't mean there isn't some truth to it. By the way, you're Social last now? :thinking2:


Yeah, I'm not sure, I was really sad when I decided it :laughing: 



> I also think other instincts can have "boundaries" too, but it really depends on the context. Of course, with sx, they won't want boundaries between themselves and their partner because then how can you get close, but that doesn't mean a sx-dom will be boundary-less with others/everyone they know who they have no connection with, right? Couldn't they be very guarded in general to many others who they feel no sx connection with? I could also see the case where Social and Sexual types might have been hurt in social situations or past relationships and would therefore enact boundaries as a defense mechanism too.


good point

and presumably sx builds boundaries against unwanted sexual connections, so boundaries against unwanted social connections (classic exclusivity)



> Hmm, I actually think Lana del Rey is sx/so at this point, which may be why she's that way. She's always seemed sx-dom to me.


I don't know what to think about her anymore, I remember thinking sx for a long time but I apparently reverted right to sp 2


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## Marvin the Dendroid (Sep 10, 2015)

I have a hard time maintaining an active interest in people, face to face. Especially groups of them, but even individuals ... I am endlessly more interesting.


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## Karkino (May 25, 2017)

Most of the folks I'm close from are Sp dom (unsurpisingly). Even though their types and tritypes are vastly different, I see a big difference with me when prioritizing needs. They all seem to naturally cling to material possessions and are definitively more in touch with their own body. Some instinctively like to test out their physical limits and some love to talk about health fads and new recipes. Most regularly keep their finances in check (especially if SJ) and are conservative about money. I know many of them like getting the most out of a buck and are quite savvy when going to the grocery store.

When unhealthy, they keep hoarding unecessary things like food, collectables even money. I've seen some of them self-medicating with natural stuff or even giving them a quick high with shopping therapy. Some obsess over being robbed and check/mention their door locks frequently.

Being Sp blind, I do none of that. I don't understand their motive emotionally, only rationally.


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## Scruffy (Aug 17, 2009)

Sp/Sx 3w4 with 5 and 8.

When you look back and realize that throughout your entire life, you've never looked outwards for support. I'm nothing if not incredibly sure of myself and what I need to do to take care of myself. I don't consider other people when I do anything involving my comfort/health/finances etc. 

Not ever truly feeling like you are a part of a community (sp/sx directly), or even need to bother with the idea of groups. I see the world as made up of individual people, doing their own thing. Sure you can co-operate and do things together, but that sense of connection never jived with me. 

The Sx comes out when I've got my own bases covered, and desire other people on a deeper level than just my extroversion can pull. I haven't been unhealthy in a pretty long time, so I don't really relate to material obsession or things like that. Sp is just about making sure that you are on top of your own shit and not looking outward. 

In closing, I know I'm Sp first because of everything said prior. I simply don't look outward to a group, or individual people, I look to me.


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

Coburn said:


> All the things sp can't help but be concerned about I'm concerned about. Those areas or topics I find necessary or worthwhile for living are all sp-related.
> 
> I also know an sp-last person and it baffles me to this day how she survives. She de-prioritizes literally everything sp I hold sacred.


I'm sp last and survived. :smug:

I found this thread interesting.


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## Merkurin (Aug 21, 2018)

I always wonder how this plays out in different MBTI types. I , as example, am an Infp and I'm currently torn between sp/sx or sx/sp for myself. 
Why i think i could be sp first: I never really depended on others - groups or individuals - and I always tried my best not to do so. So I've awlways been pretty self sufficient in this sense, oftentimes to the point of refusing any help or support from the outside. ( I notice while writing that this might be rather a SO blindspot thing than SP first in itself but whatever). I 'm also rather tight with money and I tend to highly value and take care of my possesions. I'm concerned about avoiding seriously dangerous or harmful situations in the sense that I prefer not to risk my life or happines for whatever.
On the other hand, I can sometimes be rather detached from material possesions and things, just from the material world in general and I'm definitely not very in touch with my body. Sometimes simply noticing if I'm hungry or not can be a real struggle, and that is just one example. Also, I can easily forget bodily needs as such if i don't pay concious attention to it, or I just neglect them. I've noticed that I am not that concerned about - or sensitive to - environmental factors, e.g. lightning, heat, humidity or food/ food quality compared to others as well. In general, I sometimes find it hard attending and paying attention to the "basics" in life. That's what makes me think SP doesn't fit me that well. But then, all the latter things I mentioned are pretty typical for Infps imo or just an Intuitive vs Sensor thing and therefore maybe don't have to do with instinct, in this contex at least; being a bit unpractical, being a bit detached from the pysical world or concrete physical reality, being more about ideas/theory/possibility vs being more practical, more about immediate actual reality and real things.
What do you think?


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## Marvin the Dendroid (Sep 10, 2015)

Merkurin said:


> I always wonder how this plays out in different MBTI types. I , as example, am an Infp and I'm currently torn between sp/sx or sx/sp for myself.
> Why i think i could be sp first: I never really depended on others - groups or individuals - and I always tried my best not to do so. So I've awlways been pretty self sufficient in this sense, oftentimes to the point of refusing any help or support from the outside. ( I notice while writing that this might be rather a SO blindspot thing than SP first in itself but whatever). I 'm also rather tight with money and I tend to highly value and take care of my possesions. I'm concerned about avoiding seriously dangerous or harmful situations in the sense that I prefer not to risk my life or happines for whatever.
> On the other hand, I can sometimes be rather detached from material possesions and things, just from the material world in general and I'm definitely not very in touch with my body. Sometimes simply noticing if I'm hungry or not can be a real struggle, and that is just one example. Also, I can easily forget bodily needs as such if i don't pay concious attention to it, or I just neglect them. I've noticed that I am not that concerned about - or sensitive to - environmental factors, e.g. lightning, heat, humidity or food/ food quality compared to others as well. In general, I sometimes find it hard attending and paying attention to the "basics" in life. That's what makes me think SP doesn't fit me that well. But then, all the latter things I mentioned are pretty typical for Infps imo or just an Intuitive vs Sensor thing and therefore maybe don't have to do with instinct, in this contex at least; being a bit unpractical, being a bit detached from the pysical world or concrete physical reality, being more about ideas/theory/possibility vs being more practical, more about immediate actual reality and real things.
> What do you think?


SP all the way. I am completely detached from my body and have never given a rat's arse about possessions, I really don't think those things are SP-related in intuitives. Sensors maybe, or some sensors anyway.

What kind of an INFP handles the day-to-day admin of life well anyway?


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

Coburn said:


> I also know an sp-last person and it baffles me to this day how she survives. She de-prioritizes literally everything sp I hold sacred.


Yeah I honestly wonder that for myself sometimes too. But if it says anything I lived with my two sp-first parents till college, and they still supported me through college, and then almost immediately after college I met my sp-first husband. So... 

But for what it's worth I really admire sp-first-ness. I just can't make sp stuff more of a pressing concern in my mind. I love sp-first energy though. It's comfortable, healing. I guess that's why I like surrounding myself with it. 



Dangerose said:


> edit ii: i just find the concept of sp 2 very confusing, makes sense to see a sx 2 looking for love from a lover primarily, so 2 from a group primarily, but sp 2...from bread primarily??? can never quite make it work


I'm fairly well convinced that my mom is sp/so 2w1 and I think you're totally right that sp 2 is countertype. When she took the Enneagram test at work she came out a 9, which I think was a logical result, but she said herself that some of the things about it didn't really click. The most distinctive factor is how _active_ her energy is. She is always on the move, assertive, protective, independent, engaging, sociable, dynamic. She's also very compassionate, modest, and humble, but she has a hard time being still, which IMO is pretty much an immediate dealbreaker for 9. She also related more to the role of "Helper" than "Peacemaker", though she definitely advocates for harmony and I'm sure 9 is in her tritype (I think she's 279). I see her sp-ness in her way of being a resource provider. She just helped my brother move into college by driving to his dorm with supplies, going shopping for necessities, and getting his room set up. She did something very similar when she helped me move not long ago. She helps my (INTP sp/sx 5) dad with the day-to-day practicalities - clothing, food, household supplies, and generally coordinates anything planning-related (conference trips, vacations, etc.) for him. She really picks up on things people like and always keeps an eye out for them - she even will buy my husband's favorite mustard if she knows he's coming over. _I_ don't know my husband's favorite mustard. She's a special education teacher with young kids and helps determine their challenges and works on addressing them through play. She's really not that touchy-feely, even though she's an ESFJ. She's warm and attentive and caring, but she's a doer, not an emoter. But she absolutely reads people's needs and meets them through resources, and uses that to stay close with the ones she loves. (And she's affiliative, cooperative, strategic, group/social-politics-aware - that social-second at play.)

Edit to add - my mom is a giver, always, but she makes me think of the airline advisory about putting your oxygen mask on first before you help your kids secure theirs. My mom does this in everyday life. If she needs sleep, she goes to bed. She packs herself lunch. She takes breaks at work. She takes space and time for herself. Even when my brother was extremely sick and possibly not going to make it in the hospital, she told me that we needed to go get rest at the hotel and to take care of ourselves. I was having a hard time with that and she reminded me that we weren't any good for him if we weren't functional. And that he wouldn't want us to be miserable, either. (And I'm so glad she had us do that - she was right - the small things like showering and eating were our lifelines at that point.) She absolutely circles her life around others and taking care of them but she makes sure that she is up and running and she seems to have little problem stepping away to care for herself. I admire this in her. 



Dare said:


> From my perspective it was as if two people got together and agreed to run a business called 'homemaking'. It was formal, cool like clockwork. No complaints, but no kisses either. My mother's behavior screamed 'devoted' but she never ran to the door upon his return. He was even more formal/colder (sp/so vs sp/sx). If these were Russian sleeper agents using this rouse as cover, that would have explained everything perfectly to my SX mind (somehow that would have been a relief). But no doubt they were just as baffled by my just-warming-up-here early SX antics (fortunately my mother had a sense of humor).


LOL! It's great to read this because I had such a similar experience with my sp parents. I wouldn't really call my parents' relationship cool or formal - it was warm, and practical, and with gentle humor - but it often just seemed not-quite-there to me. Not nearly the amount of kisses, or physical touch, or just overall "oozing" that even as a young age I apparently was looking for. Now as an adult I see and understand it, of course, but total mindf*ck as a kid. And equivalently so for them with me, probably, with my fiery outbursts and single-minded tracking and kamikaze emotional tactics. Now that I look back on it, it's interesting that while my mom (sp/so) was closer and warmer, I think my dad (sp/sx) probably understood me better in ways.


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## Merkurin (Aug 21, 2018)

Marvin the Dendroid said:


> What kind of an INFP handles the day-to-day admin of life well anyway?


Haha yes, that always confused me about the instinct descriptions of Sp, I mean you would have a hard time finding any Infp who will be preoccupied with practical basic, day to day stuff, etc. Always left me wondering how Infps could identify with SP, while at the same time it makes sense as Sp is about how you deal with yourself and so on to a big extent.


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## Karkino (May 25, 2017)

Merkurin said:


> I always wonder how this plays out in different MBTI types. I , as example, am an Infp and I'm currently torn between sp/sx or sx/sp for myself.
> Why i think i could be sp first: I never really depended on others - groups or individuals - and I always tried my best not to do so. So I've awlways been pretty self sufficient in this sense, oftentimes to the point of refusing any help or support from the outside. ( I notice while writing that this might be rather a SO blindspot thing than SP first in itself but whatever). I 'm also rather tight with money and I tend to highly value and take care of my possesions. I'm concerned about avoiding seriously dangerous or harmful situations in the sense that I prefer not to risk my life or happines for whatever.
> On the other hand, I can sometimes be rather detached from material possesions and things, just from the material world in general and I'm definitely not very in touch with my body. Sometimes simply noticing if I'm hungry or not can be a real struggle, and that is just one example. Also, I can easily forget bodily needs as such if i don't pay concious attention to it, or I just neglect them. I've noticed that I am not that concerned about - or sensitive to - environmental factors, e.g. lightning, heat, humidity or food/ food quality compared to others as well. In general, I sometimes find it hard attending and paying attention to the "basics" in life. That's what makes me think SP doesn't fit me that well. But then, all the latter things I mentioned are pretty typical for Infps imo or just an Intuitive vs Sensor thing and therefore maybe don't have to do with instinct, in this contex at least; being a bit unpractical, being a bit detached from the pysical world or concrete physical reality, being more about ideas/theory/possibility vs being more practical, more about immediate actual reality and real things.
> What do you think?


Instincts are basically all about what makes us tick. Our dominant instinct is what we most pay attention, so much so that it almost become impossible to see for an untrained eye. We also tend to become obsess with areas of our life pertaining to our dominant instinct and especially neglect the last preferred one, hence the blindspot.

You're absolutely right when you say that MBTI (and Enneagram type) plays a big role in SP's manifestation. since SP is all about personal survival, health and well-being, a dominant or auxiliary intuitive MBTI type might use it a bit differently than Sensors. Likewise, they are also Enneatypes that are more naturally associated with certain instincts, like social or sexual for TWOs, self-preserving for SIX, sexual for FOUR, etc. Finally, there's also this important concept of mental health when looking at dominant instincts. An unhealthy SP-dom is most likely to neglect their physical health, have an irregular shedule or very predictable one, etc. 
On the other hand, a healthy SP-dom will effectively manage their body and schedule in a natural and balanced rhythm. So how can we differenciate an unhealthy SP-dom with an unhealthy SP-blind (last)? The focus of attention and the need to fix the problem. SP-dom need to be in-sync with their body-awareness in order to feel comfortable and elated. Chaos is this area of life (health, finances, security, etc.) will feel extremely unconfortable and will greatly affect their work performance and overall demeanor. Self-preservation is literally a big deal to them.


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## Merkurin (Aug 21, 2018)

Karkino said:


> Finally, there's also this important concept of mental health when looking at dominant instincts.


Yes, I know that. But with me, pretty much all of my instincts are fucked up to some extent and have been so in the last couple of years 😂😅. That' s also said to be likely if you're mentally or psychologically in a low state. It doesn't necessarily just mess up your doninant, but actually all of your instincts.That's what I read somewhere at least, however, for me it holds very true.


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Marvin the Dendroid said:


> SP all the way. I am completely detached from my body and have never given a rat's arse about possessions, I really don't think those things are SP-related in intuitives. Sensors maybe, or some sensors anyway.
> 
> What kind of an INFP handles the day-to-day admin of life well anyway?


How would you say Sp instinct, or your own, manifests in intuitive types? I mean, that is besides having a love for durian, or wait, is that your sx? h:

I always said I was the least practical person I know and always found it hard to relate to sp in general even though I was typing myself first as sp/so, but I just attributed my terrible use of sp to inferior Se. Now I’m not so sure that’s all it was, and reading more people talk about sp, I’m not sure why I ever did type as sp-dom, besides the fact I was typing myself as that based on Chestnut’s subtype description for sp-4. One thing I can say I’m not that seems common to sp-doms is being self-sufficient. I’m pretty clueless when it comes to taking care of myself, and usually have to seek the advice of those better equipped with sp to know what to do.

I think one thing about instincts that seems to get lost when we focus on the “instinctual” quality of it is that it’s not necessarily about “survival”, but also what gives you satisfaction in a way too. When you meet that need, it also feels good to do so, which can also lead to a “neuroticism” of overindulging in it too. I mean, that seems pretty obvious, but I see Enneagram teachers always giving it ironically this sp-focused angle to it, which makes sense too since sp is in some sense everyone’s primary instinct. At a base level, everyone has to have some level of self-preservation. Social and Sexual in general could be seen as less necessary to fulfill, or even accessible in some cases (You’re never guaranteed friends or a romantic partner, for instance, but you’re always stuck with yourself), but then I’d imagine a so-dom or sx-dom not fulfilling their primary instinctual need to be a very unhappy person.


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## Marvin the Dendroid (Sep 10, 2015)

mistakenforstranger said:


> How would you say Sp instinct, or your own, manifests in intuitive types? I mean, that is besides having a love for durian, or wait, is that your sx? h:


Equating survival with SP never made any sense to me. The instincts only make sense to me as a way to explain what kind of energy you instinctively focus on, something like...

SP = your own energy
SO = group energy
SX = sexual energy (which doesn't have to be sexual ... it's based on sexuality but could focus on work etc.)

I can imagine how an SP-first ISTP might focus on survival and possessions and whatnot, but to me as an INFJ, it's more about being focused on what my Ni is up to, that internal universe of dazzling lights.


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## Marvin the Dendroid (Sep 10, 2015)

SP being equated with possessions is BS. This is all I own. I've never cared about things. They weigh me down; the less I have, the lighter I feel. I don't care to own nice things. I would probably be happy as a hermit in a cave if it was sufficiently warm and I had a decent bed. I am mainly focused on myself, but couldn't care less about _things_ and _possessions_. Fuck 'em.










(I don't own the car, it was a rental.)


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Marvin the Dendroid said:


> Equating survival with SP never made any sense to me. The instincts only make sense to me as a way to explain what kind of energy you instinctively focus on, something like...
> 
> SP = your own energy
> SO = group energy
> SX = sexual energy (which doesn't have to be sexual ... it's based on sexuality but could focus on work etc.)


:thinking2:



> I can imagine how an SP-first ISTP might focus on survival and possessions and whatnot, but to me as an INFJ, it's more about being focused on what my Ni is up to, that internal universe of dazzling lights.
> 
> SP being equated with possessions is BS. This is all I own. I've never cared about things. They weigh me down; the less I have, the lighter I feel. I don't care to own nice things. I would probably be happy as a hermit in a cave if it was sufficiently warm and I had a decent bed. I am mainly focused on myself, but couldn't care less about _things_ and _possessions_. Fuck 'em.
> 
> ...


Have you seen this movie? I believe the main character is sp/sx. 


* *



















> SP being equated with possessions is BS. This is all I own. I've never cared about things. They weigh me down; the less I have, the lighter I feel. I don't care to own nice things.


I don't really care about "things" either and go without a lot, but I don't think I have the perspective of "They weigh me down; the less I have, the lighter I feel." 



> I would probably be happy as a hermit in a cave if it was sufficiently warm and I had a decent bed.


And this is how I know I'm not social-last. As hermity and cut off as I am already from a lot of people, I wouldn't want to be _that_ cut off.


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## Marvin the Dendroid (Sep 10, 2015)

mistakenforstranger said:


> Have you seen this movie? I believe the main character is sp/sx.


Yes. I'm a fan. Apart from dying alone in Alaska, I dig the lifestyle.



> I don't really care about "things" either and go without a lot, but I don't think I have the perspective of "They weigh me down; the less I have, the lighter I feel."


It's not so much a perspective as a visceral feeling for me. It really feels heavy.



> And this is how I know I'm not social-last. As hermity and cut off as I am already from a lot of people, I wouldn't want to be _that_ cut off.


Absolutely. I have next to no SO-instinct. If I had a good partner, I don't think I'd need to see anyone else. Would probably talk to a few people online in addition and be content with that. I do miss that SX-connection very palpably when I don't have it, but SO... Just no.

But I think it makes more sense to talk of SP/SX/SO as percentages, mine are probably 60/40/0 (or maybe 55/40/5).


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## AnneM (May 29, 2019)

Marvin the Dendroid said:


> I would probably be happy as a hermit in a cave if it was sufficiently warm and I had a decent bed.


Marvin, why does it have to be warm, and why do you need any bed, let alone a decent one? 

I'm ahead of you in this regard.


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## Marvin the Dendroid (Sep 10, 2015)

AnneM said:


> Marvin, why does it have to be warm, and why do you need any bed, let alone a decent one?
> 
> I'm ahead of you in this regard.


I like my creature comforts up to a point. A 4-inch futon is plenty. I grew up someplace ball-freezing and have grown to appreciate warmth.


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## AnneM (May 29, 2019)

Marvin the Dendroid said:


> I like my creature comforts up to a point. A 4-inch futon is plenty. I grew up someplace ball-freezing and have grown to appreciate warmth.


I shall be the better saint.


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## Marvin the Dendroid (Sep 10, 2015)

AnneM said:


> I shall be the better saint.


Tbh I don't avoid possessions and comforts to be saintly, I just plain don't like them. I like beauty you can't own - landscapes, sea shores, cityscapes, women. 

My saintly qualities are entirely non-physical. Cleaning your bathroom while you're away visiting in-laws, listening quietly so you get to talk, looking you in the eyes so you feel a little less lonely. Not to mention hugs.


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## AnneM (May 29, 2019)

Marvin the Dendroid said:


> Tbh I don't avoid possessions and comforts to be saintly, I just plain don't like them. .


Oh, I'm totes in it for the glory and that golden crown, not to mention an incorruptible body so I can freak people the fuck out:


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## Marvin the Dendroid (Sep 10, 2015)

AnneM said:


> Oh, I'm totes in it for the glory and that golden crown, not to mention an incorruptible body so I can freak people the fuck out:


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

Marvin the Dendroid said:


> Equating survival with SP never made any sense to me. The instincts only make sense to me as a way to explain what kind of energy you instinctively focus on, something like...
> 
> SP = your own energy
> SO = group energy
> ...


So this is what makes most sense to me and how I usually think of instincts, more or less.

Heart types make it really confusing though, even the most introverted INTJ sp/sx 3w4 will still be essentially focused on who they are in eyes of other people, focus on themselves as someone who can get validation rather than just on themselves by themselves and for themselves.
The problem gets even worse with 2 and 4, especially 2.

I feel like I understand the way it works, how the self focused energy can apply regardless of type, but only in very vague terms and pretty much just enough to know that according to every other sp definition I'm sp blind and according to this particular one my gut tells me I'm sp even though it's difficult to directly experience my own sp-ness in sp-ish terms, ultimately what I can say about it is:
a)As a child I was sp, don't even need to define sp to know it
b)So dom seems ridiculous when I think about it more and sx seems like it should be right, but it just feels kinda meh and insubstantial, I mean there is a definite string of sx woven throughout my entire life but it doesn't feel like _the thing_ (so I guess by process of elimination it's sp?)


Would be great if someone with better Ti than mine could sort out my thoughts for me :frustrating:


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## Marvin the Dendroid (Sep 10, 2015)

sweet morphine said:


> Would be great if someone with better Ti than mine could sort out my thoughts for me :frustrating:


Maybe you have a fairly even distribution of them, 40/30/30 SP/SX/SO? 

It is difficult enough for me to fathom what life looks like for an extrovert, never mind an SP-first extrovert. I guess there must be a contradiction in there somewhere, some conserving of your energy and prioritising your own needs over those of others. Although the instincts, enneatypes and MB types are separate layers, they tend not to be entirely randomly combined - there's a reason you won't find many INFP 8s or ESTJ 2s.


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## Marvin the Dendroid (Sep 10, 2015)

Merkurin said:


> Where did you find those gifs, if you don't mind me asking?


tenor.com


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## Merkurin (Aug 21, 2018)

Marvin the Dendroid said:


> Merkurin said:
> 
> 
> > Where did you find those gifs, if you don't mind me asking?
> ...


Thanks


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## Merkurin (Aug 21, 2018)

mistakenforstranger said:


> :thinking2:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know this movie too and it highly resonated with me. Also always wanted to pack up and live alone somewhere alone in nature for a while. It`s still something I wanna do someday, just not as long as he did, maybe for one or two monts or so. 

But I think the main character could as well be a so called "antisocial" social subtype, because he seems to still be quite concerned about what is going on in society, how it is doing and so on, I could easily see him as a social 4, which is a type very critical and possibly resentful and hateful of society, defining themselves as outside the system whilst simultaneusly constantly tracking society and its actions. But then again, I could see him as SP as well and, also, it`s a long time since I watched this movie, so I don`t remember the plot exactly.


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## Merkurin (Aug 21, 2018)

Marvin the Dendroid said:


> I would probably be happy as a hermit in a cave if it was sufficiently warm and I had a decent bed.


I'm pretty introverted and I might be Sp as you suggested earlier in this thread, but just the thought of living this way forever is quite disturbing and terrifying to me. For a certain period of time, like maybe half a year as its longest I would love this way of living, but eventually it would become draining and just simply lonely. 
I love and need my alone time and to get away from people to be by myself, and when people don't respect my personal space and my privacy, I get highly irritated and annoyed on the inside. I get really exhausted after too much interaction/time spent with with others too, when there hasn't been an opportunity to get away from time to time. But on the other hand, if this style would become my way of living, being a hermit living alone in his cave, I would be utterly miserable. I still crave and need some amount of interaction/ inclusion with others and the outer world, I really don't want to be completely cut off from that.
If I had to choose between "being forever together with or surrounded by people" and "living forever alone as hermit cut off from everyone", I would choose the first (allthough it would depend on who these people were, of course), it would be a nasty option though. 
As I said, if I don't see or if I'm not involved with people to some extent at least, it eventually drives me insane.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

They like their little nest's of wondrous treasures










I love the energy style of SP's, pretty hawt. The earthy groundedness is just really sexy, idk

Excuse me :laughing:


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## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

Because I'm always alone and pretty happy about that beyond the fact I sometimes would like to get laid and do something stupid like be in love. (ideally with someone who isn't clingy or high maintenance).


edit: I just found the most relatable picture.


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## Merkurin (Aug 21, 2018)

Kintsugi said:


> They like their little nest's of wondrous treasures
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No need to excuse:wink:


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## Merkurin (Aug 21, 2018)

So do I sound more like Sp or not?


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## VoodooDolls (Jul 30, 2013)

I assume I'm ISFP cuz I'm not ISFJ. ISFJ have Fe which is mindhive thinking, group values, etc. Also J implies being on top of things. I procrastinate and people have said I'm self absorbed.
I could be an intuitive granted but that's just because I'm on holiday.


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## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

Merkurin said:


> So do I sound more like Sp or not?


You sound introverted but not so sure about an SP-dom type of introversion if the idea of being alone for too long terrifies you. The hermit life sounds ideal to me.


@VoodooDolls SP = Self-preservation instinctual variant, not SP as in Sensor Perceiver.


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## VoodooDolls (Jul 30, 2013)

Hexigoon said:


> You sound introverted but not so sure about an SP-dom type of introversion if the idea of being alone for too long terrifies you. The hermit life sounds ideal to me.
> 
> 
> @VoodooDolls SP = Self-preservation instinctual variant, not SP as in Sensor Perceiver.


Oh ok. I haven't read about this. I'm clearly sexual variant.


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## Lunatics (Jun 20, 2015)

Erm, I think it plays out differently for every type.

As a SP 4 I'm not considered as intense and overtly showing my emotions to others. I often suffer in silence sharing my pain with a few trusted people. I do not seek out social situations(or belonging) and edgy experiences as much as maybe a SO or a SX 4 would. Also despite that I'm creative I don't really look to share my artistic side with everyone and I'm more private about it. Last but not least, I love homemaking and 'nesting', making my living space beautiful and cosy(oh, love me some hygge, too), spending lots of time in it. I feel most comfortable at home, relaxing with a book, a movie or YouTube, napping(lol). When I feel more expressive I do solo karaoke and dancing at home. ;3 I'm really like a lone wolf and fine with less human interaction. Pretty withdrawn at times and fantasize/live in my head a lot. 

However, when I do crave human interaction I like having a friend or a few people over for some board games, painting, cooking or a movie night. I don't mind going out to meet friends but it makes me feel much more sensory stimulated and I can't be as focused(or relaxed) on the person/people I'm with as I would have been if they were my guest(s) at home.


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## Merkurin (Aug 21, 2018)

Lunatics said:


> Erm, I think it plays out differently for every type.
> 
> Last but not least, I love homemaking and 'nesting', making my living space beautiful and cosy(oh, love me some hygge, too), spending lots of time in it. I feel most comfortable at home, relaxing with a book, a movie or YouTube, napping(lol). When I feel more expressive I do solo karaoke and dancing at home. ;3 I'm really like a lone wolf and fine with less human interaction. Pretty withdrawn at times and fantasize/live in my head a lot.


Interesting, I always thought Sp 4's would still be somewhat outwardly oriented as part of the so called "image" - or "heart" - types and therefore be somewhat more oriented to relationships and interactions with others, to some degree at lesst. I'm really starting to doubt if I am Sp first(I'm a 9 though), also taking into account what the others have brought up here. I seriously start thinking if I might actually be Sx last.

The wing, however, does certainly play a role in here too, as 4w3's regardless of instinct will always be more "extraverted" or externally oriented than the 4w5 obviously. Do you know your wing?


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## Marvin the Dendroid (Sep 10, 2015)

Merkurin said:


> As I said, if I don't see or if I'm not involved with people to some extent at least, it eventually drives me insane.


It's all energy. Some percentage SP, some percentage SX, some percentage SO. With some fluctuation.


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## Lunatics (Jun 20, 2015)

Merkurin said:


> Interesting, I always thought Sp 4's would still be somewhat outwardly oriented as part of the so called "image" - or "heart" - types and therefore be somewhat more oriented to relationships and interactions with others, to some degree at lesst. I'm really starting to doubt if I am Sp first(I'm a 9 though), also taking into account what the others have brought up here. I seriously start thinking if I might actually be Sx last.
> 
> The wing, however, does certainly play a role in here too, as 4w3's regardless of instinct will always be more "extraverted" or externally oriented than the 4w5 obviously. Do you know your wing?


My wings are pretty balanced but do lean more towards a 5 wing. I used to be more 3-wing oriented in my teenagehood and early 20s when I was trying to seek validation from the public more and impress strangers with my style too much, lol. Usually there's a counter-type for each enneagram energy; a SP 4 is the counter-type, thus more subdued version of the 4 family and so is the SX 9 more intense and unlike the usually mild-tempered 9 family. Also if you're more assertive and impatient as a 9 you may be a 9w8. If you're more patient and rule-mindful you should be a 9w1.

Last but not least, the fact that I'm a SP 4 doesn't mean that I still don't do things out of an image-conscious perspective. When I decorate my home I'm always mindful how that would represent me and 'speak' to my visitors, lol. Also I'm still conscious of how I dress(much less avant-garde, but chic now that I'm older) and how I express myself when I speak to other people, particularly people who are not close to me. In order for a 4 to grow and become healthier getting away from its 'image', being more accepting and present is what's recommended. This is where, thankfully, I'm finally slowly moving towards in life and it's really freeing to do things fully authentic to me without caring as much how the public eye would see me and if they'd find me significant or not. I'm SX second and if I do seek validation then I look towards my closest friends, family and partner for that.


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## Merkurin (Aug 21, 2018)

Merkurin said:


> I seriously start thinking if I might actually be Sx last.


Sorry. Just noted a little mistake in here. I meant to say that I start thinking *wether I might actually be SP - last* and not SX lasth::frustrating:.


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## Lunatics (Jun 20, 2015)

Seriously, go with what feels right to you in the end of the day.  Even if you're not 'correct' initially and change eventually that's absolutely fine as well. It's taken me time(years) to really raise my self-awareness and figure out stuff for myself.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Karkino said:


> Hi folk!
> 
> I'm going off a new tangent here and want to ask people on why they think they are this type/instinct/tritype etc.
> 
> ...


SP doms tend to stockpile TP. It's a pretty good sign.


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## 74893H (Dec 27, 2017)

Pizzafari said:


> Because I know I'm So-last and out of the Sp/Sx and Sx/Sp descriptions Sp/Sx seems the most likely, but I don't really know for sure. Instincts are confusing.


Now that I know I'm a 1 not a 9 and understand the instincts better I can give a better answer... I know I'm Sp because my perfectionism is turned mostly on myself. I'm a repressed boi in more ways than I can possibly list and any mistakes I make in anything I do frustrate the ass out of me, I have to keep fixing and fixing and fixing and fixing everything I do and I'm never fully satisfied, and whenever I do anything I feel a constant anxiety over whether I'm doing it the way I should be. My 9 wing usually overtakes my Sx-second need to reform my intimates, I usually don't want to risk he fallout of telling them what they should or shouldn't do, but I do worry a lot about it and have to really bite my tongue if I think they're doing things badly, but sometimes if I'm feeling confident enough or a conversation segways in that direction I can't help myself, though I think I'm pretty tactful about it. Think my Sp repression plays in too. And I don't really relate to the So need of being an example for society to follow at all, I know I'm not as perfect as I try to be. Fix yourself before you try to fix the world, to paraphrase a certain controversial psychotherapist.

Sp/sx descriptions also say that in ennea-1 the Sx instinct below the Sp surface wants you to throw out all of your repression and just live, and that's something I relate to a lot. I've often seriously considered throwing it all out and just being the person I feel like in reality I'm _supposed_ to be but I just can't bring myself to do it.


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## blue70rose (Apr 22, 2016)

Honestly, I wouldn't know without my core Enneatype. And, for that matter, wasn't completely sure of my core Enneatype without the synergy of instincual subtypes, either. Looking at just SP, SO, and SX, I could make a case for or against each one. And my thoughts used to change depending on which quiz I took, or what I read about the instincts.
Then when I discovered the Enneagram countertypes, and how they can show up very differently than the stereotypes for their respective core types--especially in 6's and 4's-- and read and heard about what a SP 4 was like, it finally all clicked into place.


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## blue70rose (Apr 22, 2016)

...ok but to actually answer the question as asked, I thought of this: the prevalent stockpile of a wide variety of vitamins, supplements, and natural care products might be some kind of indication. Although then again, it might not be. And actually, I couldn't swallow pills until I was almost 18 years old, which seemed to be due to some kind of SP-related anxiety.


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## HolyMoony (Mar 11, 2021)

Karkino said:


> Hi folk!
> 
> I'm going off a new tangent here and want to ask people on why they think they are this type/instinct/tritype etc.
> 
> ...


I'm sp dom because I put myself first.


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## Sily (Oct 24, 2008)

I’m hyper-vigilant about anything that is going to mess my world up. From creature comforts to the idea of safety and intrusion from humans. I love safety, comfort and ....... wait for it ...... SELF preservation. I love my comfort zone. Some humans will f you up 7 ways to Sunday, if given the chance.


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