# Self-manipulation, how far can person go with it?



## Mystique93 (Apr 6, 2011)

It's something that's constantly on my mind, and I thought I should make a topic to see what others think.

It all started when I first read about ego defense-mechanisms. They _should _be unconscious, but can you actually trigger defense-mechanism, apathy for example?

By triggering apathy I mean starting long self-manipulation that begins with painful event.
Imagine that the person is X. When something painful happens, X is depressed. He decides that he'll never let anything/ anybody hurt him again and reminds himself all the time that he is indifferent and doesn't care about anything. 
If my ''theory'' is correct, in some point, X doesn't need reassurances anymore, he suddenly believes these things. 

But the reason I'm afraid I'm wrong is because I think the person might know all the time that the apathy is fake, even if he doesn't admit it. Or is it possible ''forget'' triggering it at the first place? (it doesn't seem realistic when I think about subconscious, since negative thoughts and fears stay there)
Still, I see people lying to themselves all the time, and it seems so easy. 
Maybe it also depends how painful an event is or how objective one is/ desires to be, meaning that some people are naturally better at self-manipulation than others. 

I'm sorry if all this sounds confusing or too psychological, but I'm sure there are people in PersonalityCafe who have much better understanding of how subconscious mind/ defense-mechanisms work than I do, so I look forward to others' opinions. :mellow:


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## suicidal_orange (May 6, 2010)

@Mystique93 I was going to wait for the more knowledgeable people to chime in, but I gave them all night and they didn't so you'll have to accept another untrained opinion :laughing:

If I've understood you correctly you're saying that depression starts based on a bad experience (reality), but after a while the bad experience is assumed to be inevitable causing an "active defense-mechanism" to kick in which you suggest is a conscious decision. I guess you'll need a bit of background. No sympathy is requested - my life is just a string of facts to be analysed :happy:

I consider myself a master of such self-manipulation as a result of missing my childhood to take care of my sister to make my mum's life easier while my dad worked away. I had retrograde amnesia for a couple of years which I recovered from slowly which didn't help me to know what I should have been doing as a normal teenager which probably didn't help. There are still gaps in my memory though so am unsure if I was guilt tripped into doing what I did or it was my choice. 

Anyway a year ago I'd have denied having any desire for a relationship or even friends and I'd have refused a promotion at work if there was any chance of it impacting negatively on my homelife - all to avoid inflicting the same as I'd suffered on anyone. My parents were bad, they taught me, therefor I'd be a bad parent. I still have problems believing that the persuit of wealth is healthy (because that's why my dad was away) although it's quite obvious that if I had more money I could put it to good use either through charities or just being able to support a potential family better. Yet I'm still working a dead end job because of this belief.

I'm not sure I'm even convinced that there is a clean break between conscious and unconscious thought/beliefs though. I mean, consciously you ask questions of yourself and from another area of the mind information is provided - but is this genuine memories or assumptions made on prior bad experiences? Are either of these "sources" really conscious? Maybe being an Ni dom is not helping me in this regard as it makes up the future based on the past, which is exactly what this is all about.

For me I think it comes down to one thing - why would anyone consciously act based on an assumption with little basis in reality? Are people (myself being one of them) consciously that stupid and self defeating?

Your example seems to be about relationships and even if a person has a bad couple as their first surely at a conscious level they can see that they give others pleasure and they've already admitted to themselves that they want one for whatever reason so to not continue to try is just lazy. Maybe it's the result of living in too easy times - for the first time in their life they actually have to put in some effort to get what they want, this frustrates them so any excuse is used to justify inaction on a conscious level and "it went badly last time" sounds a pretty good one until you actually think about it. Maybe this same fear is what's really behind my not seeking a decent job...

I hope I haven't deviated too far from the original question :blushed:


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## sparkles (Mar 2, 2011)

I think it is possible to use self-manipulation in the way you describe. It's arguable as to whether someone remains conscious of doing it. Sometimes if a person shuts off and disconnects, it becomes second nature. At that point they might not say they are fooling themselves. 

But it might dawn on them one day - say there's a relationship crisis and they realize they WANT to be engaged, and it becomes pretty easy to slip out of the old pattern (compared to taking on a totally foreign way of being). It's comparatively easy because they are simply discarding the defensive response pattern as a default masking over their inherent preference.

You can make a conscious choice to respond to an event with a defense. Not all defenses are unconscious though many have a strong root in being done without conscious awareness. I know I displace (lash out) if I'm stressed, or if I'm premenstrual (may not do so but there may be a desire to do so), or if I just had a crap day and someone does a certain thing to trigger it. I displace with conscious awareness sometimes. I don't know if this is the norm, though, as I do think many people who lash out don't realize they are doing it until someone else addresses it.

It's possible to consciously choose to defend yourself against future pain, and over time that can become a default. I don't think people always realize they are lying to themselves unless they have some sort of insight-promoting or transformative experience.

Does that answer your question?


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## TickTalk (Apr 20, 2011)

Mystique93 said:


> It's something that's constantly on my mind, and I thought I should make a topic to see what others think.
> 
> It all started when I first read about ego defense-mechanisms. They _should _be unconscious, but can you actually trigger defense-mechanism, apathy for example?
> 
> ...


I DID THIS IN HIGHSCHOOL. I told myself "Sad feelings are not needed for my life. I'm editing them out." Meditation + Conditioning + Convincing myself I can't get sad. I eventually came to the analogy that I was in a glass structure in a rainstorm (I can understand sadness but I don't get wet per se)

It wrecked my life xD. So I want to care about my girlfriend right? Yeah no. She cheats on me, Whatever!  No sadness here! Serious psychological problem there. Can you really care about someone if they can't hurt you? Short answer. No. You can't. And because of that I was extremely dwarfed in later relationships and only recently grasped negative emotions and their place in my life. Self manipulation can get pretty darn bad I'll tell you.

My most recent harsh realization is that my actions always do what makes me happiest *Whether I like it or not* I had the most terrible habit of making my girlfriends jealous of other girls. I told myself a thousand times to stop doing it. That it's hurting her etc. That It's not logical to do until it all hit me like a bullet train. I was insecure in the relationship. So my reaction was to make her jealous. Thus she'd have to get angry that I did it and that PROVED how much she cared about me. I lacked the constant affection showing that ENTP's need and that was the result. An unconscious effort at making myself feel secure actually ended my relationship.

I call that sort of mental standby "Autopilot" Where I don't really think about what I'm doing. I just do it and I usually end up happy.

Self manipulation goes pretty darn far. This making her jealous is actually from my *first self manipulation of not wanting to ever feel sad*. Because of that mindset my mind has been geared to only do what makes me happy no matter what. (Pretty selfish) And thus those actions occurred. I had no way of stopping myself without understanding it either because "Autopilot" doesn't work like that. I have to know WHY I'm doing something to change it. Or else I'll keep doing it naturally.

Fun times.


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

I'm kind of the opposite -- I rarely self-manipulate, don't know how to do it, and often wish I did know how to do it to lessen some of the overwhelming pain. I'm not good at compartmentalizing or dissociating from unpleasant things/situations/people. I go into very dark, almost catatonic, depressions when things go wrong. At the very least I feel quite bad about myself and shame is a common feeling. I'm more mentally healthy than I used to be, but I still feel things quite rawly and don't self-manipulate well at all.


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## absent air (Dec 7, 2010)

I think that self-manipulation goes as far as the ignorance of the individual.


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## TickTalk (Apr 20, 2011)

absent air said:


> I think that self-manipulation goes as far as the ignorance of the individual.


I believe your personality type has a lot to do with how they self manipulate but that's just my theory. Ignorance and "Tricking yourself to be happier" Are quite different. I find that statement a little closed minded


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## absent air (Dec 7, 2010)

TickTalk said:


> I believe your personality type has a lot to do with how they self manipulate but that's just my theory. Ignorance and "Tricking yourself to be happier" Are quite different. I find that statement a little closed minded


''I think that self-manipulation goes as far as the ignorance of the individual''


individual=own personality
own personality->Myer-Briggs concept
XXXX value=Ignorance potential

individual=Ignorance potential
Correlation self-manipulation and Ignorance potential=High+Present
Tricking yourself to be happier=creating an illusion
Being illusioned=Being unaware of reality
Unaware of reality=Ignorance

ig·no·rance
_''The condition of being uneducated, *unaware*, or uninformed''_


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## TickTalk (Apr 20, 2011)

absent air said:


> ''I think that self-manipulation goes as far as the ignorance of the individual''
> 
> 
> individual=own personality
> ...


I hate reading between the lines. The phrase sounded too cryptic to be that well thought out but you proved me wrong


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## xezene (Aug 7, 2010)

Pretty far, pretty far....


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