# NT/SJ Friction???



## XiXaXian (Jan 8, 2012)

By "enough rope", it's knowing that they have somebody that they don't like because they break the rules. So instead of dealing with the smaller violations as they happen, they wait until there are enough smaller violations or one larger violation to take it to management. IE, they allow you to break the rules temporarily knowing that at some point you will violate them in a way that is punishable and they eagerly wait and watch for the opportunity. They might even overplay/exaggerate the violation when they catch it.


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## Pinion (Jul 31, 2013)

I spend an indecent amount of time around an INTJ and ENTP, and we haven't noticed this.


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## Corporal Lance (Sep 4, 2013)

I have an ISTJ associate that I could only accurately describe as my rival at this point. We can get along in a neutral environment outside of work and we have a lot in common, but it's the same story: He's overbearing with his rules and organizational standards and I don't follow rules I don't see the point in and am completely disorganized. And it _does _get to that point: he'll attempt to bring the boss down on me at work if he feels like I'm breaking too many rules and sometimes I'll break his rules for the hell of it if I know nothing will come of it. We've managed to stay on level ground so far, but we're butting heads more and more as he recently was promoted to a higher position and hasn't learned that the best way to manage me is to step completely back and let me do my damn job my own way.

I get along with other SJs, but it's STJs where this generally happens. Not to be critical to STJs, I can be friends with them, but it's all the rules that grate on my nerves. And don't even think about attempting to get me to follow them. I understand the rules just fine, there might even be meaning to them, but I don't feel obligated to follow them if they don't serve a function or pertain to me.


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## dawilliams (May 15, 2012)

Corporal Lance said:


> I get along with other SJs, but it's STJs where this generally happens.


I have a theory that sometimes the personality types close to yours, but on the other side of the N/S spectrum, can cause the most relational friction. I've seen this happen a few times--the ISFJ and INFJ friction on this board; personal misunderstandings between me (ENFP) and ESFP...my INTJ husband and his ISTJ mom had a horrible relationship growing up--tons of friction which they blamed on one another. It's better now, but they have to work hard on it.

My theory is that the friction happens because the two sides naturally address the same sorts of things--I*TJ stuff, for example--but in completely different ways. 

It helped when my husband and his mom understood that it wasn't personal--that they were both trying to do the right thing. My husband can better appreciate his mom better knowing where she comes from and she's gotten better about staying out of his hair on the little things;-) I hope things improve for you!


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## Corporal Lance (Sep 4, 2013)

@dawilliams, thank you for your sentiment. You have some truth to your insight, but I get along with ISTPs just fine (I know MANY of them. My father, brother, and several friends and acquaintances), so I can't be too certain it's the N/S switch. I can get along with STJs just fine until they bring up rules and standards of conduct, and it's the ESTJs as well. In other areas we can generally agree and hang out until there is a job to be done or a moral quandary before us. I'll give an example:

*ISTJ and me both get a task to accomplish*
ISTJ: "Alright Lance, I need you to do A, B, and C, and don't forget to do B according to procedure."
me: "Tch, screw _that."_
ISTJ: "C'mon, you've gotta do it! It's our responsibility blah blah blah."
me: "Okay, lemme break it down for ya. 'A' isn't my problem, that's the other guy's problem, and I'm not cleaning up his mess. That's _his _responsibility and I'm not obligated to do jack for him for being lazy, let'im burn. I'll do 'B' the fast way because the 'right' way takes me 2 hours I don't have to waste."
ISTJ: "No, you gotta follow the procedure or the boss isn't gonna like it."
me: "Look, no one cares, alright? I'm saving time, which is what the boss is gonna like. Now I'm gonna go start 'C', come get me if you've got more work."
ISTJ: "You can't do C, you haven't done B yet."
me: "C is quicker, it'll take me a few minutes."
ISTJ: "But B is more important, you gotta tackle that one first."
me: "C takes like 5 minutes! I'd rather have less people waiting on me to get my stuff done."
ISTJ: *concedes because I'm a stubborn bastard* "Fine, whatever, do C. But you should really do B first, for future reference."
me: ... *I'm already gone by this point*

It's like that, but with more crap I don't need to be doing. Like pre-inspections on my work. If he doesn't like it, he'll tell me to fix it. I normally don't care because what he thinks has no impact on what the boss thinks, so I show the boss and he'll tell me it's good or send me back to work on it. Boss is looking at it either way, so I'm cutting out the middle man. And he'll often tell me I need to take it back because my formatting sucks or whatever and I'll take it to the boss and he'll approve it anyway.

As people, most STJs I can find reliable and fun to debate. But when I work with them, like I always do, the rules they enforce can be a constant headache. No, I'm not gonna label all this crap the way you want to. There's no point in your labeling system other than OCD's sake and I can already find the information I need in less than a minute anyway, and no one else is supposed to be looking at it so no one will see it but me. *sigh*


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## KaoticVoodoo (Jul 29, 2013)

I have noticed that most SJ's really appreciate NT's but have difficulty changing their ways to new ideas and theories.


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## Pyromaniac (Apr 2, 2013)

dawilliams said:


> ...a jerk NT might, for instance, humiliate the SJ by pointing out the flaws in their logic--publicly--and in such strong terms as to leave little room for doubt.


Huh, not a bad idea.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

KaoticVoodoo said:


> I have noticed that most SJ's really appreciate NT's but have difficulty changing their ways to new ideas and theories.


And you ultimately have to break the current rules to show the new rules work better.


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## Elistra (Apr 6, 2013)

For ENTJ: 

1) Befriend as many of the resident ESTJs as possible. Keep it concrete, keep it straightforward, refrain from abstractions and theory whenever possible.

2) Make dealing with the ISTJs their problem instead of yours. A well-developed ESTJ has a way of speaking to the aloof ISTJ (great work ethic though!) that can make the ISTJ loosen up a little. 

3) Let dealing with any unhealthy ESFJs be an ESTJ problem, as well. The well-developed ESTJ has a near-miraculous ability to deal with the idiotic remarks and irrational control freakery of the unhealthy ESFJ without sounding like, _"Run along and play now, the big people are talking."_ 

4) Deal with the ISFPs personally. They're a lot like INFPs, only they think very concretely.

For INTJ and xNTP:

Befriend the ENTJ who has befriended the ESTJ.

:wink:


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## affezwilling (Feb 1, 2011)

So I haven't read the entire thread, but the OP brought to mind a couple of studies that I've read. 

The first has to do with the over/under-representation of different temperaments in management. Aside from the ENTP entrepreneurs, the vast majority of managerial / CEO positions are held by XSTJs and XNTJs. These 5 types, and _only_ these 5 types, are found more frequently as CEOs than they are in the general populace. The other 11 personality types are underrepresented amongst management positions.

The other, more recent, study that I read was that once the economy started to recover people started to quit their jobs and seek employment elsewhere. The overwhelmingly # 1 reason that people quit their job is due to management. People don't quit jobs, they quit bad management. It seems that people reaaally dislike being micromanaged and / or treated as though they're menial laborers and are lucky to even have a job.

Coincidence???


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## JJkul (Oct 4, 2013)

I've come across some SJs that I love, but I have a strong aversion to some of the ESXJs I've come into contact with. They were/are loud, obnoxious, and force(d) their opinions and morals on everyone that comes under their perceived authority. 


My ESTJ brother being one of the greatest examples. Some times we can get a long fine, but that serenity tends to hang by thread. It's easy for him to get all riled up when you try to correct something of his that would be for the common good, and I've found his extreme lack of intuition impossible to stand on many occasions.


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## affezwilling (Feb 1, 2011)

JJkul said:


> I've come across some SJs that I love, but I have a strong aversion to some of the ESXJs I've come into contact with. They were/are loud, obnoxious, and *force(d) their opinions and morals on everyone that comes under their perceived authority*.


I get along well enough with my dad (ESFJ) because he does this in a more passive capacity, but the last few years I have been walking around on eggshells everywhere I go for this very reason. Between my boss (ESTJ) and my wife (ISFJ) I can't escape it. 

My boss thinks that since he's been in the industry for over 60 years that he know everything about everything. He makes snap decisions without any relevant information and then goes off on anyone who has the audacity to question his authority by presenting him with any such relevant information. He operates almost entirely on argumentum ad antiquitatem and refuses to acknowledge any wrongdoing on his behalf often even when presented with irrefutable proof. There's seriously no reasoning with the man which is why everyone just avoids dealing with him whenever possible. Unfortunately he owns 1/2 the company so unless he decides to retire (which is unlikely since he's in his 80s and has nothing better to do) or dies I'm stuck dealing with him.

Then after work I get to deal with my wife who spends all of her time chasing unobtainable wants and ignoring the obtainable needs. Then she gets all bent out of shape because she doesn't get what she wants and takes it out on me for only dropping everything for her most of the time instead of all the time. She also gets upset when I focus on anything besides her and the kids because apparently *all[\B] of my attention needs to be devoted to doing what she wants and ignoring necessities. 



Corporal Lance said:



He hasn't learned that the best way to manage me is to step completely back and let me do my damn job my own way.

Click to expand...

This sums up every issue I've ever had with anyone, ever. Since I tend to think very much in abstract terms much of what I do and say makes no linear sense so an overwhelming amount of people, especially people who don't know me well, tend to dismiss my approach to things as being nonsensical gibberish and assume (more often than not completely incorrectly) that my way won't work. I've found that SJs especially hate nonlinear approaches to things whenever it can be avoided.*


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## Strelok (Aug 16, 2013)

dawilliams said:


> Most people who dislike him do so out of disagreeing with a statement attributed to him, but which is out of context and inadequately understood.


Which statement?



dawilliams said:


> I am firmly convinced that if all the SJs were to disappear, society would break down like a printer just when you need it.


I believe that society would evolve and adapt without them


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## dawilliams (May 15, 2012)

Strelok said:


> Which statement?


I'm not thinking of a particular statement, more just a general trend I've noticed across these boards in which people misunderstand lots of nuances of lots of different theories--not just Keirsey's. Or we might understand the theory well enough ourselves, but then we (myself included in this, unfortunately) paraphrase theories badly into something that they're not and then people get all confused and switch out of English into a Mathematics major because they think some personality theory told them that it would be a good idea. 

Or dump their girlfriend because she's "the wrong type."

I dunno. Of course then, there are also bad theories which further confuse folks. 



Strelok said:


> I believe that society would evolve and adapt without them


I know that you're half joking about this, but I find it not that funny. I hate type bashing. It's so arrogant and cheeky--which, yes, is part of the appeal, but, really, I find it sort of childish to pretend that, here in our cool little N-clique, we don't need those other guys.

If our society would be forced to live without SJ's--seriously--the world would be a much messier, broken down place, and none of the printers would work. We wouldn't evolve--we would rapidly devolve into fanciful, absent-minded folks who couldn't cooperate on a chore to save a life--all naked and hungry because no one else would want to be bothered by the arduous, dreary, day-in-day-out SJ grind of textile and food production. 

Yeah, okay, I may be exaggerating a bit, but probably not that much. SJ's comprise up to 40% of the population according to Keirsey's estimate and their impact on society is larger than we at personality cafe (where SJ's are in a fractional minority) might comprehend. What do you think this hugely responsible segment of the population are doing all day? 

Probably not sitting on their butt wasting time at an online typology chat forum;-)


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

dawilliams said:


> Probably not sitting on their butt wasting time at an online typology chat forum;-)


Or they could be doing something completely inefficiently and taking 3 times the amount of time to do it so the NT is already done and using that spare time to say surf an online typology chat forum :wink:


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## dawilliams (May 15, 2012)

PowerShell said:


> Or they could be doing something completely inefficiently and taking 3 times the amount of time to do it so the NT is already done and using that spare time to say surf an online typology chat forum :wink:


Touché!


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## Judson Joist (Oct 25, 2013)

dawilliams said:


> NTs think the SJ gums up the system with inefficient rules


Sometimes they do. And Perceivers tend to change the plan every five minutes. There should always be a plan and the rules should always be consistent. A group must have a leader. A leader must be a visionary. Not merely competent, but also courageous and compassionate. And *never* a defeatist.



> SJs think the NT takes obscene pleasure in breaking their rules


The only way to make a dysfunctional (or dystopian) system function properly is by rebelling against it.



> such as *not* putting the stapler back in the *wrong* place


Don't you mean, "not putting the stapler back in the right place?" Or alternatively, "putting the stapler back in the wrong place" (w/o "not"). This is a legit complaint from the SJ's side. I might be an NJ, but I always put things where they go. That 'N' with my 'J' also drives me to find improved arrangements for things if the current position isn't as optimized as it could be.




> bad SJs (especially bad STJs) might try to get someone they don't like fired.


I've had that happen before. It was because I liked to come to work early and I had a tendency to socialize with my co-workers which the day-shift supervisor thought was distracting them. Since then, I've learned to be less social since being social with other humynz is a surefire way to get fired. And that was back in 2001.




> Have any of you been on the receiving end of this particularly evil side of the SJ temperament?


Yes (multiple times).



> What did they do?


Got me fired (multiple times). One reason why I chose not to marry or reproduce is because anybody at any time can fire me (and destroy my ability to maintain financial stability, nevermind having anything resembling a career or professional future) for any reason or for no reason at all.



> It is fascinating for me to imagine how someone as cooperative and obedient as an SJ would be able to do something so awful to another person.


It's because they worship "order." Makes them behave like fascists if the concept of "order" is interpreted in a dictatorial way instead of an ergonomic way.



> how does someone - legitimately - get someone else fired who doesn't deserve to be fired?


By making the HR person, or whoever handles the firing, believe that the accused *does* deserve to be fired. This is typically done by exaggerating minor faults (real or imagined) since outright lying can potentially result in a lawsuit (slander/libel).


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

I think it ultimately comes down to type dynamics. 

An ISTJ is a bit like an INTP, with the exception that an INTP loves nothing more than to sit you down and explain every detail of their internal Ti model of something so that you understand it. An ISTJ tends to not explain or tell you his or her model, but expect you to follow it to the letter and think according to it. If you put pressure on an ISTJ, either through Te (if you are dominant) or through their inferior (Ne), they tend to manifest through coming up with gigantic risks/negative consequences of whatever you're proposing. 

This can further manifest as pointing very stubbornly to the current reality to defend the past actions and structure, I.E. "We are where we are today (Se, concrete fact), because of doing what we have done in the past (Si)" When more pressure is added, it follows up with a combination of either Se + Ti or Si + Ti. The former manifesting as "You're saying/You said + Subjective logic". Further pressure/stress tends to lead to appeals to the population, which are then followed by appeals to extremely abstract or non-concrete interpretations of reality. 

So to do a run through:

XSTJ - The current structure needs to be followed to the letter, because this means the future will be like the past. 
XNTX - The current structure is illogical/is outdated we should do it this way instead because....
XSTJ - No, that's risky/I see a gigantic downside to doing that. 
XNTX - It's not risky because X, Y , Z, and A, B, C theory supports it. 
XSTJ - Well, we are where we are because of the existing structure, and that's proof enough that we've done it right. 
XNTX - Yes and No, it's not a given that the existing structure has lead to an optimal result, or that it's a good idea to continue to use it. 
XSTJ - You said that it's illogical and an illogical structure cannot lead to a good result, thus your conclusion is invalid. 
XNTX - That makes no sense. 
XSTJ - The existing structure has lead to X and Y for everyone and we've been hailed as A and B and thus what we've been doing is good.


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## Quinault NDN (Jan 22, 2011)

Your question made me think of the Dresden books by Jim Butcher.

The main character, Harry Dresden, had difficulty with the White Council's chief warden, Donald Morgan. Basically the conflict centered around the absoluteness of his world view...the rule was the rule, that breaking the rule made one a rule breaker with no leniency regarding context.

In a generalized way, SJ can lean toward a high degree of rigidity in a world filled with ambiguity. The variances of the color scale are ignored in favor of black and white.

Intuition strives to see between the seen toward the hidden, naturally drawn toward those things which are more ambiguous. The conflict is about certainty for certain versus certainty based on intuitive leaps which one may or may not be able to verbalize accurately. It's the inability to answer "why" sufficiently because "I'm right" doesn't cut it.


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## Judson Joist (Oct 25, 2013)

Scelerat said:


> Subjective logic


*Oxymoron detected in this sector!*
:shocked:
Autonomous units subsumed. Converge and attack.


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

Judson Joist said:


> *Oxymoron detected in this sector!*
> :shocked:
> Autonomous units subsumed. Converge and attack.


I do agree, largely. However, the term subjective logic is unfortunately used quite a bit in "type language" mostly in reference to introverted thinking, where the logic usually follows acceptable patterns, it's just applied to a highly subjective model.


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## erialClaire (Jun 6, 2013)

dawilliams said:


> bad SJs (especially bad STJs) might try to get someone they don't like fired. They might especially pick on NTs because of this friction inherent between the temperaments.



Statement of the century. 




> They play by the book, so how does someone--legitimately--get someone else fired who doesn't deserve to be fired?



There's an ESTJ manager at my workplace who's gotten many subordinates fired (for petty, illegitimate reasons). There's an interesting dynamic between her and the ENTJ boss, who seems to hold her opinions in high regard, thus fuelling and propelling her power and position, which she thoroughly abuses. 

SJs play by the book, and expect everyone else to conform and do so. If you don't, you're rebelling against their values and are dispensable.


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## Tea Path (Sep 5, 2012)

rationalization. and a knowledge in them that their way is the ONLY right way. regrettably, when someone bucks the way too much, their in the wrong.if they can't be taught, they must be excised.


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## Bahburah (Jul 25, 2013)

I have a thing with an ESFJ and we mirror each other. Probably because we share the same functions but reversed.

But there is a clear difference in morals and ethics. 

She can also be boring to text too.


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## EmmaR (Mar 21, 2021)

dawilliams said:


> For the record, most NT/SJ relationships are perfectly functional, positive, mutually satisfying. I don't want to give the wrong impression, and engender in NTs an active dislike of all SJs.
> 
> Walt Disney (ENTP) and his brother Roy (ISTJ) worked wonderfully together, a functional and complimentary team, building one of the largest entertainment empires ever. My NT husband works well with his SJ boss--he knows how to gently help her through her inefficiencies--and she knows and appreciates his strategic insight. Meanwhile, she's great at what she does, running the company, keeping it stable, and he knows and appreciates this too.
> 
> I am a writer, however, and am interested in that fractional minority of bad apples. Any insight would be much appreciated!


ENTP can get along pretty well with ISTJ IMHO. ENTP tends to hardly get along with ISFP. I might be wrong, but, you get the point.


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## sim_cherie (Sep 29, 2021)

dawilliams said:


> I am trying to find out more about the dark side of SJ (see my thread in the INTP forum). Something in particular that interests me, however, is the way bad SJs wage crusades against people they perceive to be enemies.
> 
> For reasons that Keirsey articulates, the SJ and the NT often misunderstand one another. NTs think the SJ gums up the system with inefficient rules; SJ's think the NT takes obscene pleasure in breaking their rules...such as not putting the stapler back in the wrong place for the fifth time even though I had already asked them twice!
> 
> ...


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## sim_cherie (Sep 29, 2021)

I have been on the evil side of SJ more than I have ever seen a good side. I'm an ENTJ - I find in office environments, SJ's will use political means (within the rules) to sabotage NT's because they mistrust anyone who appears subversive. 
Most of my frustration is as you say, because NT's prioritize efficiency and results when they prioritize accuracy and process/means for achieving results. However, it's also a greater ideological conflict. SJ's often respect existing systems and authority/hierarchy, and where they don't, they usually opt for gradual, compliant attempts to reform them to avoid risks and consequences - NT's find most existing authorities ripe with flaws and in desperate need of dismantling. They do not work very hard to avoid consequences and are willing to risk them to reform issues.


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