# Why depression is more common in women than men



## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

First just want to acknowledge that yes, it might just be the diagnosis which is more common. However, it seems to be well known that women are more likely to either experience or be diagnosed with a mental health problem, such as depression or an anxiety disorder [x]. The Big Five theory also perhaps supports this, as women have higher scores in the neurotisicm trait than men based on research [x]. There is also stereotype that women are typically more "emotional" while men are more "logical". 

There could be many factors influencing this (lifestyle, hormones, negative experience, genetics) but I'm going to focus on why men and women on average have this biological difference. I will link as many of the sources I can as evidence of the statements I will make (and have already made) to support the theory as well, even though my explanation is quite a one simple anyway.

Depression has actually been linked with the inflammatory response. Studies have found that those suffering with clinical depression had higher concentrations of the inflammatory bio-markers by up to 50% (Biomarkers are genes that indicate a biological disease or process). There are many articles and sources that suggest this. Inflammation is a mechanism in the body that fights against infection. Another reason for this link is that the symptoms of depression are similar to when you have an infection or virus; you tend to sleep more, become less sociable, there is a loss of appetite, etc. 

Women are actually thought by some researchers to have a more responsive immune system, the genetics responsible being in the X-chromosome[x] This may not be an actual scientific fact, but it makes sense. It could be there to protect the fetus during pregnancy and the mother who becomes vulnerable to infection during this time. It prevents the harm of both the mother and child, and ensures her genes will be passed on through generations successfully.
I've also found articles that suggests the same idea;


> In a new study, researchers found that women’s immune systems responded more strongly than men’s to flu vaccine. Old and young women alike produced both more antibodies and a higher inflammatory cytokine count — one sign of potential immunological overreaction — than male participants.


By now you must have realised where i'm going with this. I think women are more prone to depression because of this higher immune response. Of course I don't think that men cannot be affected by depression to any less extent than women. Depression can indeed be caused by poor lifestyle, therefore is probably not always genetic or anything to do with the genetic bio-marker nonsense you've been reading. However, I would guess this is only true for mild depression. Treatments such as medication are not used for someone who only has a mild case of depression, as it can go away over time and through improving lifestyle. I have also considered hormone differences and believe this might also be a contributing factor. 

Here are a few more sources>>

* *




Immune system differences - https://www.livescience.com/16268-female-immune-system-stronger-males-genetics.html and 
Why Women's Immune Systems Are Stronger Than Men's - D-brief
Depression and the inflammatory response - https://www.you tube.com/watch?v=2X4qySqsYP8 and https://www.you tube.com/watch?v=fqyjVoZ4XYg



Actually wasn't sure which forum to post this in. Thanks for reading if you did, I hope you at least found it interesting and I'm curious to hear your thoughts.


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## Cal (Sep 29, 2017)

Actually, women having higher depression rates(or at why it seems to be this way) may be due to how both men and women express symptoms of depression. A study found that there where no significant differences between the rates of depression among men and women, once taking into account differences in the symptoms of depression expressed between both genders, and using a gender inclusive scale, rather than a traditional scale.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2015/12/numbers.aspx


> The percentage of men who have suffered from a period of depression in their lifetime, when measured by a "gender inclusive depression scale" that includes symptoms such as rage and risk-taking, according to a 2013 study in JAMA Psychiatry[SUP]*[/SUP]. The study found no significant difference between the rate of depression in men and in women. Studies that use traditional depression scales, in contrast, found that depression is more common in women than in men.


So in turn, the theory may not work if the rates are similar to one another. Rather, I think a theory into the differences between why certain symptoms are more prevalent among one sex in comparison to the other maybe better...

Now, if you need me, I got a pineapple pizza eater to defeat...

* *





*PIZZAMAN IS OFF, TO FIGHT THE EVIL LIKINGS OF MR. PINEAPPLE!*


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Cal said:


> Actually, women having higher depression rates(or at why it seems to be this way) may be due to how both men and women express symptoms of depression. A study found that there where no significant differences between the rates of depression among men and women, once taking into account differences in the symptoms of depression expressed between both genders, and using a gender inclusive scale, rather than a traditional scale.
> 
> http://www.apa.org/monitor/2015/12/numbers.aspx
> 
> ...


The symptoms are sometimes said to vary with each individual, and in general everyone deals with their issues differently. I've seen one person who talked about their struggles with clinical depression and how he described that experience was exactly how I experienced it. Anger and risk taking might be symptoms of a person who doesn't seek help and attempts to mask depressive symptoms. Men who are concerned with masculinity and social norms probably show those symptoms, as sources such as this seem to suggest, which calls it "masculine depression" .

It's possible that the symptoms are different though.. That source also acknowledged this;


> The study found no significant difference between the rate of depression in men and in women. Studies that use traditional depression scales, in contrast, found that depression is more common in women than in men.


This was what I was thinking of, the typical symptoms of depression; low mood, activity, appetite etc. It's probably what is meant by the traditional scale. 

However, it is questionable why such gender norms exist in the first place. Genders might have developing such roles because they do actually have those differences on an average scale. The issue of gender roles is when some individuals don't fit that norm, because nothing is ever one size fits all. The logical vs emotional stereotype does seem stupid, but maybe there is some truth to it. It might explain why those stereotypes developed in the first place. What if it's not a masculine thing for men to show depressive symptoms because of both biological and societal differences?

I'm not sure if that source really proves that the sexes suffered depression at equal rates, as it doesn't have an awful lot of information. how did they measure those statistics and what was the nature of the test that was used? Also, if using a gender inclusive scale is more accurate, then why does the diagnostic criteria still use the traditional symptoms and not point out these differences?


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## Aiwass (Jul 28, 2014)

How do we reconcile the fact that depression is more common in women and the fact that men die by suicide more often?


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Aiwass said:


> How do we reconcile the fact that depression is more common in women and the fact that men die by suicide more often?


Because apparently women attempt suicide more. The link in Cal's post also mentioned that, but I've read that before somewhere.


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## Paulie (Jun 23, 2011)

Very interesting, and you can't help but think that women's stronger immune systems are responsible for their ability to live longer than men. Unfortunately, as regards depression, it seems to be a two edged sword. It's also amazing, I think, how many diseases are linked to inflammation of one type or another. (I suspect also that depression in men is reported less for social reasons, but that's an entirely different argument for another day.) 
@Cal, just tell them to step away from the pineapple pizza, and nobody will get hurt. Whew.


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## crazitaco (Apr 9, 2010)

Apparently asprin also dulls emotional pain. Curious


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## Aiwass (Jul 28, 2014)

Wisteria said:


> Because apparently women attempt suicide more. The link in Cal's post also mentioned that, but I've read that before somewhere.


Anyway your initial hypothesis is very interesting. Never head of that. 

I swear I was expecting to read something along the lines of "women are depressed because they don't want to work" when I clicked on the thread.


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## chad86tsi (Dec 27, 2016)

Wisteria said:


> First just want to acknowledge that yes, it might just be the diagnosis which is more common. However, it seems to be well known that women are more likely to either experience or be diagnosed with a mental health problem, such as depression or an anxiety disorder [x]. The Big Five theory also perhaps supports this, as women have higher scores in the neurotisicm trait than men based on research [x]. There is also stereotype that women are typically more "emotional" while men are more "logical".
> 
> There could be many factors influencing this (lifestyle, hormones, negative experience, genetics) but I'm going to focus on why men and women on average have this biological difference. I will link as many of the sources I can as evidence of the statements I will make (and have already made) to support the theory as well, even though my explanation is quite a one simple anyway.
> 
> ...


7 years ago I had a very traumatic and nearly fatal back injury. I was on lots of meds to cope with recovery, and eventually I was able to taper off to just taking large doses of NSAID's to manage the chronic pain. About 7 or 8 months later I was able to start living a normal life again, but I noticed my previously chronic depression has been absent since my injury. A year post injury I was still pretty much free of it. I asked my physician if there were any links to my large dose of NSAID's and my now absent chronic depression. He knew of none. Several years later I progressed in my recovery to the point that I could take far less NSAID's. After 4 years post injury I had some titanium hardware removed due to chronic pain in that site. After recovery from that, I was able to completely stop my NSAID's. Within 2 weeks my depression returned. I experimented for about 6 months, I could easily and predictably modulate my depression with NSAID dosage alone. For me, it's clearly linked. I take 220 mG a day in the evenings, it's been all I need to keep it manageable. 440 mG works better, but I prefer minimal dosage for other health reasons, I can cope at 220.

I have since found other studies that back this finding, it was gaining momentum about the time I was injured, but only recently has it been making the rounds.

For me, anxiety is a typical symptom of depression rather than it's own condition. It's often the first thing I notice before I see my own depression. I feel it's linked and directly predictive of underlying unmitigated depression. If I act on the anxiety, I don't get to the depression stage.


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## Denature (Nov 6, 2015)

Here's my theory.

In the past, women were largely taken care of by men. This meant little to no stress regarding career, education, etc.
However, now, women have equal rights and are finding that they are taking on more responsibility. So all that stress of balancing work, education, a boyfriend, marriage, kids, etc. is huge for women today.

I think there are two ways this can go. The world/market/culture whatever you want to call it, is still adjusting to women's participation and it'll be awhile before women as a group _find their groove_. This means perhaps at some point, the rates of depression will even out some more as we progress away from tradition.

The other idea is that women are simply biologically wired to be more stressed and self-conscious. An evolutionary reason for this could be that women are weaker than men physically, so any advantage mentally in regards to where you stand in a social hierarchy was selected for the female sex to be successful. This would mean that on an equal playing field, women will always be more stressed/depressed than men on average.

Depending on the results we see, it might hint towards one direction. Personally, I think it's the second (biological) option as there's already studies showing women exhibit higher rates of neuroticism.


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## islandlight (Aug 13, 2013)

Aiwass said:


> How do we reconcile the fact that depression is more common in women and the fact that men die by suicide more often?


Yes, and men seem to "drink to forget" more.

My depression lasted from puberty to menopause, so I guess it was hormone related (although at the time I wasn't aware of having the typical menstrual problems, PMS, etc.). Plus, I wasn't depressed during my pregnancy, even though I didn't want to be pregnant.

Studies all measure different things and take different approaches. So it might be helpful to use certain "findings" to help us understand a given situation, person, demographic, etc., or to allocate hospital beds or public health funding. But probably no study (or statistic or anecdote) has the absolute answer.


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## chad86tsi (Dec 27, 2016)

One other possibility is how statistics work. 

An example of suicide statistics:

One woman in in a group of 100 women kills herself after trying (unsuccessfully) 9 times. This is a "suicide attempt rate" of 1:10

ten men in a group of 100 men kills them selves on the first try. THis is a "suicide attempt rate" of 1:10 also

It has been shown that men are far more likely to succeed at killing themselves than women are, where women are more likely to attempt and fail (intentionally or otherwise, doesn't matter in the statistics) than men. The statistics rarely measure this disparity. 

If men and women are equally depressed to the point of suicidal thinking, the "attempt rate" will be higher among women for the reasons stated above, even when the subject individuals are balanced 50/50 by gender.



Statistics relating to depression among genders is also subject to data analysis/manipulation. Are men really less depressed, or just not measured/reported the same? Is it because depressed men are shorter on this earth (due to successful suicide) and thus aren't there to be counted any longer?


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## InfiniteLightvoid (Jul 11, 2018)

You're not going to like my answer... The difference is Strength.

This is coming from someone who has struggled with depression from childhood till age 18. I'm a true success story, despite being diagnosed with full on /clinical depression/ aka the /physiological/ disorder. I was one of the worst cases imaginable that depression can get to. But despite that I overcame it completely, and am genuinely /cured/.

The only thing I did was make a choice... a choice in my life to turn things around for myself. To stop wallowing in pity. I had cried so hard for so long, but it didn't get anywhere. So I woke up from the illusions and self-hatred, and started facing the facts. I stopped crying and started getting up, because that was undoubtably more productive and successful at solving my problems.

At some point you're going to have to admit that you really deep down want to be somewhere better and be someone better. When you admit that to yourself, and you feel like you have nothing to lose because you just have no fucks left to give... give TRYING a real chance. A chance where you won't give up, but instead you'll put all of yourself in it at any cost to beat the shackles and shatter them by pulling harder than they can handle through sheer willpower.

Now to tie this in with, on topic. I'm not saying women are inherently weak. I would actually consider that an insult because I started out as one of the most pansy ass emotional men there can be. To think that it was because I was a man, that I changed it... is blasphemous to me. To suggest that I wouldn't have done the same if I was the same soul in a woman's body, is the greatest personal insult you could dish out to me.

However, culture is against women here. You will find that the world does everything it can to cultivate that you take the /easy/ path. So it's going to be even harder for you to take the hard path. As a male I can say, the world doesn't make it hard... for you to have it hard. It always holds you to a higher standard, and even in the face of absolute harshness will still tell you to "suck it up".


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

chad86tsi said:


> Statistics relating to depression among genders is also subject to data analysis/manipulation. Are men really less depressed, or just not measured/reported the same? Is it because depressed men are shorter on this earth (due to successful suicide) and thus aren't there to be counted any longer?


That isn't scientifically possible, as the gender ratio on this planet will always be 50-50 in each generation. If thousands of men or women were wiped out from the population, the ratio would begin to balance itself when all the existing generations die out.



Denature said:


> Depending on the results we see, it might hint towards one direction. Personally, I think it's the second (biological) option as there's already studies showing women exhibit higher rates of neuroticism.


It's not clear how higher neuroticism itself would benefit their survival though. There's no reason why strong feelings of anxiety and fear would not benefit anyone's survival. That reason is more psychological than biological I'd say.



InfiniteLightvoid said:


> However, culture is against women here. You will find that the world does everything it can to cultivate that you take the /easy/ path. So it's going to be even harder for you to take the hard path. As a male I can say, the world doesn't make it hard... for you to have it hard. It always holds you to a higher standard, and even in the face of absolute harshness will still tell you to "suck it up".


Perhaps men are more pressured by this expectation, but both genders have societal expectations. Many people can't fight depression or any severe mental illness with sheer willpower. People with clinical depression don't wallow in self pity, and I don't believe men posses more strength or willpower.


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## chad86tsi (Dec 27, 2016)

Wisteria said:


> That isn't scientifically possible, as the gender ratio on this planet will always be 50-50 in each generation. If thousands of men or women were wiped out from the population, the ratio would begin to balance itself when all the existing generations die out.


The annual age-adjusted suicide rate is 13.42 per 100,000 individuals. *Men die by suicide 3.53x more often than women*.
https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

Which is why I wrote this factitious example to demonstrate getting parity through statistical data manipulation:


> An example of suicide statistics:
> 
> One woman in in a group of 100 women kills herself after trying (unsuccessfully) 9 times. This is a "suicide attempt rate" of 1:10
> 
> ten men in a group of 100 men kills them selves on the first try. THis is a "suicide attempt rate" of 1:10 also


Statistics are not always valuable unless you understand how they are calculated.

_There are 3 kinds of lies"
Lies
Damn Lies
Statistics_

Mark Twain


While females show higher rates of non-fatal suicidal behavior and suicide ideation (thoughts),[11][14] and reportedly attempt suicide more frequently than males do,[9][10] males have a much higher rate of completed suicides.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide


This is not unique to culture:

The incidence of completed suicide is vastly higher among males than females among all age groups in most of the world. As of 2015, almost two-thirds of worldwide suicides (representing about 1.5% of all deaths) are committed by men. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide





I believe there are more women living with depression then men in part because there are more men dying from depression. There are many factors, but that is one of them. Another is that many men disassociate or refuse to accept their depression as depression, they call it something else, and it goes unrecorded.


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## Dragunov (Oct 2, 2013)

Wisteria said:


> That isn't scientifically possible, as the gender ratio on this planet will always be 50-50 in each generation. If thousands of men or women were wiped out from the population, the ratio would begin to balance itself when all the existing generations die out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If 3/10 depressed men die from by suicide and 1/10 depressed women die by suicide then there are 9 depressed women vs 7 depressed men. This would make it look like women are more depressed when not counting completed suicides.

Higher neuroticism can be linked to better threat detection.

People with clinical depression do wallow in self pity, everything is about the self and how bad it is. Its the opposite of narcissism.


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## Aiwass (Jul 28, 2014)

islandlight said:


> Yes, and men seem to "drink to forget" more.
> 
> My depression lasted from puberty to menopause, so I guess it was hormone related (although at the time I wasn't aware of having the typical menstrual problems, PMS, etc.). Plus, I wasn't depressed during my pregnancy, even though I didn't want to be pregnant.
> 
> Studies all measure different things and take different approaches. So it might be helpful to use certain "findings" to help us understand a given situation, person, demographic, etc., or to allocate hospital beds or public health funding. But probably no study (or statistic or anecdote) has the absolute answer.


Another thing is, how do we even measure something like happiness/depression? Can you measure it like you would measure kilowatts or fahrenheit? We can't really verify if men are less depressed/don't suffer as much. We can't experience the inner world of every man in the world to know that. We can only make deductions based on a few signs/indicators.


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## incision (May 23, 2010)

https://journals.lww.com/psychosoma...ure_and_Response_to_Emotional_Stimuli.10.aspx



> *Brain Structure and Response to Emotional Stimuli as Related to Gut Microbial Profiles in Healthy Women*
> 
> *Objective *Brain-gut-microbiota interactions may play an important role in human health and behavior. Although rodent models have demonstrated effects of the gut microbiota on emotional, nociceptive, and social behaviors, there is little translational human evidence to date. In this study, we identify brain and behavioral characteristics of healthy women clustered by gut microbiota profiles.
> 
> ...


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## flamesabers (Nov 20, 2012)

Aiwass said:


> Another thing is, how do we even measure something like happiness/depression? Can you measure it like you would measure kilowatts or fahrenheit? We can't really verify if men are less depressed/don't suffer as much. We can't experience the inner world of every man in the world to know that. We can only make deductions based on a few signs/indicators.


I think suicide attempts and success rates are the closest we can get to measuring the prevalence and intensity of depression. Suicidal acts are measurable while happiness is very subjective. 

Based on the statistics of women attempting suicide more often while men being more likely to die from suicide, we could hypothesize that women are more likely to suffer from depression overall whilst men are more likely to suffer from severe depression. This hypothesis could be supported by the fact women are more likely to seek medical care then men, thereby lowering the odds of women resorting to the most lethal forms of suicidal behavior. If women sought medical care as often as men or less, it's possible the successful suicide rates between the two sexes might not be as different as it is currently.


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## InfiniteLightvoid (Jul 11, 2018)

Wisteria said:


> Perhaps men are more pressured by this expectation, but both genders have societal expectations. Many people can't fight depression or any severe mental illness with sheer willpower. People with clinical depression don't wallow in self pity, and I don't believe men posses more strength or willpower.


The expectation for women is to take the easy and weak path. That's an undeniable fact. So yes, men are cultivated to be strong whereas women aren't which means on average men will be stronger.

You can see it in every example. Emotionally men are forced by society to repress EVERY emotion except happiness and anger, whereas women are taught to go GUNG HO on expressing emotion. You can cry like a little baby, despite being 28 years old. A man can't, so he's going to be drastically more emotionally reserved and thus containing the plethora of human emotion inside of himself and not letting it out.

War Veterans, the majority of which are male historically speaking, are the best survivors in emergency medical procedures. The rank goes something like Veteran > People who are in a relationship > People who are single. The only explanation for this is willpower, people who are single but haven't live as hard of a life as a War Vet won't have as much willpower or reason to live. Someone in a relationship will have someone else to live for and thus don't need much willpower unto themselves. etc.

The only thing I can say that is hard, is when women have to raise kids all on their own. But that's not something that was originally intended anyways, and I don't really think you can count parents anyways because I doubt a parent is going to kill themselves. It does happen, but again the whole "having someone to live for" applies here even more so than a lover. Not only do they have willpower, but ALSO the motive to live for someone else. So those aren't your suicide examples.

People with depression DO wallow in self-pity, that's exactly what depression is. Sorry if that sounds offensive to you for me to say, but it's the truth. Depression, as in the actual psyiological disorder(which is the one that actually matters, otherwise it's just a temporary mood/is purely psychological) is a chronic haunting inability to care about yourself beyond self-hatred. It's not just being very sad, tho feelings of sadness tend to be invoked by the lines of thought that depressed people express.

Just for the record, I'm NOT saying that we should break depression peeps down and make them feel like they are crap. To the contrary, you still have to uplift people and make them feel better about themselves to actually move them towards seeing their irrationality for what it is. But that is very parallel to nurturing Strength within people, anyways. So my point ultimately is that, Women aren't given the right kind of encouragement. They are told that they are SUPPOSED to have emotions, with no real limit to what is "healthy". In other words, most often, women will be /enabled/ in their mental disorder. This is true for many kinds of mental disorders, and Depression is no exception.

Instead of saying "You can be strong and capable, you can stand up and be a little more masculine. Just enough to not stay stuck in this pit trap."


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## chad86tsi (Dec 27, 2016)

Wisteria said:


> I've never heard of those terms. The symptoms of depression seems to be the same throughout all sources. I mostly use sources from my national health organisations for reference.
> 
> To me your approach seems more biased, as I pointed out in a post earlier. Why should the symptoms of a mood disorder be different based on race, gender, and experience? You're making it more complicated than it is. And besides, race and gender doesn't determine who you are.


You are focused on symptoms, I'm focused on who reports symptoms. You want to look at the data, I ask where does it come from? how was it qualified? Was it self reported?

You are correct that the symptoms don't change because of bias, but the weighting of it should. y gender, age, and even to some degree culture.


If I were to go to a prison and take a depression inventory, I'd likely find 100% of all men are depressed. True data or not, is it reflective of reality in a general sense : all men are depressed? or is it a biased data sample? 

If I go to a university and set up a blind depression test and study 100 men and 100 women and find that women are 150% more likely to identify as depressed, but I don't tell you what questions I asked, do you just conclude women are 150% more depressed than men? I'm skeptical of statistics with no basis for how the data was collected. What if I told you that I that I put "Mood swings" is a symptom on the depression inventory list, would you expect men to identify with that trait at a similar rate to women in this age group? Mood swings are a symptom of depression, but I think men are not as prone to it, or not as well adept at identifying it when present. Women are not intrinsically "moody", but as comapred to men they are more so, and it's stygmatizing : https://health.usnews.com/health-news/health-wellness/articles/2015/03/04/why-women-are-moody

Raw data can be unreliable, and analysis of raw data is easy to manipulate. Culture and stigma helps amplify the inaccuracy of study in such topics.



Men won't self report as much <-- there is where a large gap reveals itself in the data. Is the data itself the cause of the gap, or individual behavior? Is the data accurate when some people have a bias? Everyone has a bias, they are just different bias's. Some correlate to specific groups, such as gender.

If there is a bias in my approach, my bias is to eliminate bias factors. 

If there is no bias to your approach, that it's just data collected under "x" circumstance and we don't get to know what x is, then it's not very useful because bias is there in the individual providing the data whether you accounted for it or not.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Found this;



> Abstract
> Women become depressed more frequently than men, a consistent pattern across cultures. Inflammation plays a key role in initiating depression among a subset of individuals, and depression also has inflammatory consequences. Notably, women experience higher levels of inflammation and greater autoimmune disease risk compared to men. In the current review, we explore the bidirectional relationship between inflammation and depression and describe how this link may be particularly relevant for women. Compared to men, women may be more vulnerable to inflammation-induced mood and behavior changes. For example, transient elevations in inflammation prompt greater feelings of loneliness and social disconnection for women than for men, which can contribute to the onset of depression. Women also appear to be disproportionately affected by several factors that elevate inflammation, including prior depression, somatic symptomatology, interpersonal stressors, childhood adversity, obesity, and physical inactivity. Relationship distress and obesity, both of which elevate depression risk, are also more strongly tied to inflammation for women than for men. Taken together, these findings suggest that women’s susceptibility to inflammation and its mood effects may contribute to sex differences in depression. Depression continues to be a leading cause of disability worldwide, with women experiencing greater risk than men. Due to the depression-inflammation connection, these patterns may promote additional health risks for women. Considering the impact of inflammation on women’s mental health may foster a better understanding of sex differences in depression, as well as the selection of effective depression treatments.


Can read the whole page here if you want;https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4869519/

Also found more research about injections producing more anti-bodies in women, and the higher amount of anti-bodies has been associated with the increased risk for developing autoimmune disease. Sex hormones are also thought to be a cause as some play a role in the immune system. Female immunity is generally considered to be more superior or sophisticated, but also have a higher risk to develop those diseases involving inflammation.

Lifestyle factors that increase the risk for depression are apparently more common in women, such as obesity and physical inactivity.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Duo said:


> No, it's a measure of serum serotonin aka serotonin levels in the blood stream.


Oh ok. Does that indicate how it works as a neurotransmitter though? The brain is highly complex, and the reason I ask is because SSRI's (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors) are supposed to work by releasing the neurotransmitter into the body, and preventing the first neuron from reabsorbing serotonin before it's received by the second neuron that passes it on as a signal. So it doesn't seem to be about the quantity of the serotonin that causes the imbalance, but the mechanism of how it's released. 

Basically it's not clear if the levels of serotonin affects depression, because there is no way of measuring a chemical in the brain. It's not actually known if the deficiency of it causes depression or not.



chad86tsi said:


> You are focused on symptoms, I'm focused on who reports symptoms. You want to look at the data, I ask where does it come from? how was it qualified? Was it self reported?


Researches are aware of variables affecting the results. I doubt they would use mood swings as a symptom, because this is more associated with something like bi-polar disorder, not depression. I trust that they used the symptoms, like this page shows here: https://www.psnpaloalto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Depression-Diagnostic-Criteria-and-Severity-Rating.pdf

In research that they presumably agreed to participate in, why would men not report those symptoms? In science when you conduct research, one of the primary goals is to minimise errors and other factors as much as possible. These include gender, culture, age, etc.


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## incision (May 23, 2010)

Wisteria said:


> Oh ok. Does that indicate how it works as a neurotransmitter though? The brain is highly complex, and the reason I ask is because SSRI's (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors) are supposed to work by releasing the neurotransmitter into the body, and preventing the first neuron from reabsorbing serotonin before it's received by the second neuron that passes it on as a signal. So it doesn't seem to be about the quantity of the serotonin that causes the imbalance, but the mechanism of how it's released.


The study was absent the impacts of SSRIs since their sample size was meds free, including SSRIs.

But that's largely irrelevant to the fact that women organically produce more serotonin than males, pre and post menopause. Also, you're conflating the impacts of SSRIs with the discussion of women more prone to depression, since most women don't take SSRIs.


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## chad86tsi (Dec 27, 2016)

Wisteria said:


> Found this;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Here is the source that the study you cite used:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3163615/

The average weighted response rate was 71.7%, meaning about 30% of people didn't respond. This is ofcourse normal, but who didn't participate?

_The results reported here have several other limitations, relating more generally to the WMH findings [30]. Some of the most important of these issues involve sampling. The response rates varied widely. Although the response rates did not appear to be related to depression prevalence, it is possible that in some settings, particularly those where treatment is unavailable, the most depressed people were unable to participate. Some surveys only included metropolitan areas, whereas others involved national samples. This too may have affected estimates of cross-national variation in prevalence. In addition, the surveys did not include institutionalized patients, people in jails and prisons, people in the military, people who were too intoxicated to be interviewed, or people with severe cognitive or physical disabilities._

The response rate may not capture those it was after, only those that were willing and able to participate.

Also:

_A final noteworthy sample bias is that South Africa was the only African country included in this report [32] even though the WMH survey was also conducted in Nigeria [33]. Nigeria was excluded because of the extremely low prevalence of MDE (3.1% lifetime; 1.1% 12-month) and other disorders. *These low prevalence estimates raise questions about the willingness of respondents in the Nigerian survey to disclose symptom*s to strangers or lay interviewers, and the appropriateness of the CIDI structure for that setting [34]. They also reduced our statistical power to examine the associations of depression considered in the Nigerian data_

The study made a clear note of a factor, a bias. So clear they ruled it out. Is that present between men and women in general, across all nations/cultures? Is there a difference in willingness to report between genders? It was not discussed, and thus not ruled out.


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## Buttahfly (Jul 30, 2013)

Men don't like to admit feelings. They don't like to admit that they feel bad, depressed, unmotivated. 
Men have a harder time even noticing those feelings and states themself. That's how they were raised. 

Today my psychologist said that when she asks women to write down feelings she has to tell them to stop at 30. And she has to tell men to at least get 10. 

Look at the suicide rates. Men commit suicide much more often. Because they will notice and admit it whenever it is too late or they stay silent until it is too late.

Luckily that's changing a little. But now we have all those soooo manly men saying that men these days are all women and pussies and *******. Sad. It must be hard for them to keep up their facade.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Duo said:


> The study was absent the impacts of SSRIs since their sample size was meds free, including SSRIs.
> 
> But that's largely irrelevant to the fact that women organically produce more serotonin than males, pre and post menopause. Also, you're conflating the impacts of SSRIs with the discussion of women more prone to depression, since most women don't take SSRIs.


I was just pointing out that low serotonin isn't necessarily the cause of depression. It's unknown whether low serotonin levels is the cause or just a result of depression. Also it's not the only neurotransmitter that affects your mood. 

The research showing that women produce more serotonin in the body doesn't affect how it works as a monoamine neurotransmitter in the brain. I just brought up SSRI's to explain how neurotransmitters work. They don't give your body serotonin, they just make it more available to pass on as signals. All that is known is that serotonin is linked with depression. Depression is said to be caused by a serotonin deficiency but it's more complex than that.


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## incision (May 23, 2010)

Wisteria said:


> I was just pointing out that low serotonin isn't necessarily the cause of depression. It's unknown whether low serotonin levels is the cause or just a result of depression. Also it's not the only neurotransmitter that affects your mood.
> 
> The research showing that women produce more serotonin in the body doesn't affect how it works as a monoamine neurotransmitter in the brain. I just brought up SSRI's to explain how neurotransmitters work. They don't give your body serotonin, they just make it more available to pass on as signals. All that is known is that serotonin is linked with depression. Depression is said to be caused by a serotonin deficiency but it's more complex than that.


I don't have a strong opinion of what causes chronic depression, only wanting to clarify that the statement made by the other member of males having twice as much serotonin than females, was blatantly false. It was a way to shortcut any meanderings down a false path.


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## chad86tsi (Dec 27, 2016)

Looking through data sources that were cited prior, I found the data referencing a full article I could not read because it was behind a pay wall, but here is an abstract:

_This paper examines gender socialization processes during childhood that may contribute to a higher incidence of depression or depressive symptoms in females than in males. It is argued that because of the actions of socialization agents and the impact of gender stereotypes on a child's construction of gender identity, girls may exhibit higher levels of self-evaluative concerns that increase vulnerability to depression. Indeed, a review of the literature on sex differences in self-evaluation suggests that girls may be more susceptible than boys to self-evaluative concerns, particularly as reflected in lower expectations for future success, more maladaptive causal attributions for success or failure outcomes, and negative behavioral and evaluative reactions to failure. Moreover, an examination of the literature on sex differences in depressive symptoms leads to questions about previous conclusions that girls do not exhibit higher levels of depressive symptoms prior to adolescence. Finally, we present some recent original data that support the contention that sex differences in vulnerability to depression may be evident prior to adolescence._

the last sentence helps emphasize hormones was an unlikely factor, it's possibly just the way we raise girls, in addition to their innate gender differences from boys.

Another abstract from the same set of citations:

_Basic epidemiologic prevalence data are presented on sex differences in DSM-III-R major depressive episodes (MDE). The data come from the National Comorbidity Survey (NCS), the first survey in the U.S. to administer a structured psychiatric interview to a nationally representative sample of the general population. Consistent with previous research, women are approximately *1.7 times as likely as men to report a lifetime history of MD*E. Age of onset analysis shows that this sex difference begins in early adolescence and persists through the mid-50s. Women also have a much higher rate of 12-month depression than men. *However, women with a history of depression do not differ from men with a history of depression in either the probability of being chronically depressed in the past year or in the probability of having an acute recurrence in the past year*. This means that the higher prevalence of 12-month depression among women than men is largely due to women having a higher risk of first onset. The implications of these results for future research are discussed in a closing section of the paper._

Depressed men are depressed about as much as depressed women, it seems it's just more common for women to become depressed in the first place.

And an abstract use from this data source:

_Although there has been much productive research in neuropsychology on the topic of depression, *rarely has the issue of gender differences been taken into consideration.* It is not uncommon for researchers investigating the neuropsychological concomitants of depression to test only women, or far more women than men, making it impossible to examine the prospect that there might be differences between these two groups. This article is an attempt to integrate research from two areas of neuropsychology: (1) gender differences in neuropsychological functions and (2) neuropsychological functions in depression. *Since so few studies have examined gender differences in depression and their relation to neuropsychological patterns, there will be few firm conclusions to be drawn*. However, some speculations will be offered, and some suggestions outlined for potentially fruitful future research._


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

chad86tsi said:


> Here is the source that the study you cite used:
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3163615/
> 
> The average weighted response rate was 71.7%, meaning about 30% of people didn't respond. This is of course normal, but who didn't participate?


That link is the first reference on the article I posted. It wasn't even highlighted as_of importance_ or _of major importance_, meaning they didn't take as much interest in this reference as they did for those highlighted references. There is nothing in the page saying they used the results of this page. Is this really relevant to the conclusion of the article I posted?


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## chad86tsi (Dec 27, 2016)

Wisteria said:


> That link is the first reference on the article I posted. It wasn't even highlighted as_of importance_ or _of major importance_, meaning they didn't take as much interest in this reference as they did for those highlighted references. There is nothing in the page saying they used the results of this page. Is this really relevant to the conclusion of the article I posted?


It was the first sentence of the introduction. Is this to say it's irrelevant or de minimis? It was the very premise that started the discussion, with citation to support the premise. The article you used thought it was relevant enough to cite. Shall we set it aside?


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

I remember in a psych class in undergrad it was mentioned that autoimmune disorders are more common in females. However, that's also speculated to be due to fetal development. The same reason learning disabilities and ASD are over-represented in males. (I think the latter has something to do with the blood-brain barrier, but I don't recall exactly now). 

Something I've heard a lot about is that women are also more responsive to SSRI's than men, and men may have more of a problem with dopamine rather than serotonin function (actually, a lot of SSRIs can decrease dopamine activity). I've even heard that "depression" might actually refer to like 5-6 different diseases, or at least sub-types of depression with different etiologies - another one being dysregulation of the HPA axis (basically, your fight or flight system and the brain circuit that controls it are dysfunctional).


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

chad86tsi said:


> It was the first sentence of the introduction. Is this to say it's irrelevant or de minimis? It was the very premise that started the discussion, with citation to support the premise. The article you used thought it was relevant enough to cite. Shall we set it aside?


You're very eager to set it aside. Are you suggesting that those who didn't answer were men who weren't admitting a mental illness? The reasons listed were said to possibly due to being hospitalised, depression being too severe and/or untreated, cognitive impairments, and many more reasons. 

This whole topic is clearly a theoretical perspective, as it's all based on research. I was sharing the source because it also makes the same link I did, that gathered raw data.


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## chad86tsi (Dec 27, 2016)

Wisteria said:


> You're very eager to set it aside. Are you suggesting that those who didn't answer were men who weren't admitting a mental illness? The reasons listed were said to possibly due to being hospitalised, depression being too severe and/or untreated, cognitive impairments, and many more reasons.
> 
> This whole topic is clearly a theoretical perspective, as it's all based on research. I was sharing the source because it also makes the same link I did, that gathered raw data.


I'm not eager to do anything, I asked you a question.

The whole topic is "why?" I'm studying the premise, and that includes the data itself. It feels like you accept the data as fact and only want to find supporting theories, rather than seeing data collection itself as a potential factor for the disparity. 

If we were able to study it to the fullest extent possible and come to a true, factual, irrefutable conclusion, I'd say the question would have multiple correct answers rather than just one.

I'll leave with this, which was in another source of the study:

_Since so few studies have examined gender differences in depression and their relation to neuropsychological patterns, there will be few firm conclusions to be drawn_

If this is an exercise from a theoretical perspective, I would have thought the data (collection) could be examined more as factor than as a fact.


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

@Wisteria you're right that NSAIDs aren't a viable option for long term treatments even if there could be a link between depression and inflammatory response. I only take them when I really feel pain or deal with cramps, otherwise I avoid them thanks to the risk of kidney damage in the long run, bleeding and stuff like paracetamol damages the liver in high dosis. If you take those longer, you need to be checked by a doctor for being sure your body isn't showing signs of secondary effects.

Now about neurotransmitters, there's still much stuff unknown so I've even read that at times is questioned if SSRIs have any effect besides placebo for milder depressions. For major depression they usually have more impact, but is true that serotonin isn't the only issue as dopamine as well contributes to your well being. Also, I've read that therapy is very important, as the meds only can patch your problems unless is some depression that's completely caused by a biochemical problem (like it runs in your family, those definitely could need more medication), but in general if it's a reactive kind of depression (of the adjustment disorder kind as far as I know, as I'm no specialist so this is mainly from a few biochem courses and personal experiences with anxiety) then is important to see if you can remove the source of the depression, in the case it is caused by family issues, work, college or other external incidents that drove you to it. 

Now if it's more common in women, as far as I remember women seek more for help compared to men, but really that falls on the cultural part and not the neurological one. So dunno about stats for it, but if the symptoms differ between women and men, then it means that the checklist for it's diagnosis should be improved.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Dragheart Luard said:


> @Wisteria you're right that NSAIDs aren't a viable option for long term treatments even if there could be a link between depression and inflammatory response. I only take them when I really feel pain or deal with cramps, otherwise I avoid them thanks to the risk of kidney damage in the long run, bleeding and stuff like paracetamol damages the liver in high dosis. If you take those longer, you need to be checked by a doctor for being sure your body isn't showing signs of secondary effects.
> 
> Now about neurotransmitters, there's still much stuff unknown so I've even read that at times is questioned if SSRIs have any effect besides placebo for milder depressions. For major depression they usually have more impact, but is true that serotonin isn't the only issue as dopamine as well contributes to your well being. Also, I've read that therapy is very important, as the meds only can patch your problems unless is some depression that's completely caused by a biochemical problem (like it runs in your family, those definitely could need more medication), but in general if it's a reactive kind of depression (of the adjustment disorder kind as far as I know, as I'm no specialist so this is mainly from a few biochem courses and personal experiences with anxiety) then is important to see if you can remove the source of the depression, in the case it is caused by family issues, work, college or other external incidents that drove you to it.
> 
> Now if it's more common in women, as far as I remember women seek more for help compared to men, but really that falls on the cultural part and not the neurological one. So dunno about stats for it, but if the symptoms differ between women and men, then it means that the checklist for it's diagnosis should be improved.


I use them occasionally for the same reasons. Unfortunately painkillers and medicines are used as a solution to health problems more than necessary, rather than looking into lifestyle causes, underlying health conditions or letting the patient recover from the symptoms naturally. 

I've read a lot about neurotransmitters as well, apparently there are four hormones responsible to mental wellbeing (along with other bodily functions such as appetite and arousal). As another member mentioned, dopamine is definitely an issue as well, particularly with schizophrenia and ADHD. Also found a few theories of how SSRI's work, and noticed a lot of it was unknown.

It's more complicated when there are many possible causes of depression/anxiety. You can have both a family history and a currently stressful situation. I would recommend a person to try both therapy and medication and find out which is more beneficial to them personally.

I'm very sceptical about the symptoms differing between men and women. If men are showing anger or risk taking behaviours, but none of the typical symptoms of depression, then it's probably another issue. I would say the same about a woman who shows those behaviours. Every guy who has described depression has never spoken about rage, or taking huge risks. Same goes for women who show severe moods swings. This is not a gender specific symptom of depression, it's something else. In that instance they should consider bipolar disorder.

It does seem likely that men will be less likely to consult someone about depression, but there are still many reasons that explain why it it would be more common for women - they tend to ruminate more, fluctuating hormones, as adults women are more often victims of abuse, etc. It's stereotypical, but as I said before there is probably a reason why those gender norms exist in the first place.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

I doubt that it is more common in women than men. It may be more commonly diagnosed in women than men because we already know that women are more likely to seek support while men are more likely to go it alone when they're depressed. 

Men have a suicide rate that's 4 times higher than that of women. That should give anyone pause with regards to the accuracy of this statistic. I'm guessing it's more likely that men are much less likely than women to _report _that they have depression even when they do, or fail to recognize the signs in themselves, or just bury everything and make a good show of hiding it, because we all know that boys don't cry. We still haven't moved on from that nature of ourselves.


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## dizzycactus (Sep 9, 2012)

Not going to read the whole thread, but I'd note to those who assume some kind of social cause that I've heard of there being potentially more biological causes e.g. stories about FtM transgender people who say their thoughts suddenly became clearer and more decisive after starting testosterone treatment, which is interesting.


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## Saskopia (Aug 9, 2018)

Looking at the evidence from typology we learn that men are more likely to be Thinkers and women more likely to be Feelers. Feelers are more likely to be overcome by their emotions, while Thinkers avoid them. However, avoiding them can lead to a serenity now, insanity later issue, which would explain a higher suicide and homicide rate in males. The ideal place is in the middle where you're feeling and processing your emotions without letting them control you, but who is perfect?


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## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

I suppose this is debatable. 
I don't know if I quite agree, lots of men suffer from depression but they don't talk about it, however, I do see your argument as valid.
Interesting nonetheless.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

InfiniteLightvoid said:


> You're not going to like my answer... The difference is Strength.
> 
> This is coming from someone who has struggled with depression from childhood till age 18. I'm a true success story, despite being diagnosed with full on /clinical depression/ aka the /physiological/ disorder. I was one of the worst cases imaginable that depression can get to. But despite that I overcame it completely, and am genuinely /cured/.
> 
> ...


I have a similar story as a female so no need for blasphemy.  I struggled with clinical depression, OCD, and severe anxiety from an early age and one day decided enough was enough and pulled out of it by the bootstraps. No fucks left to give, as you say. Although the inspiration was an emotional trauma that exhausted the remaining fucks. 

My thought on it is that children tend to be more resilient and able to adapt than adults - they are still growing and developing physically, and the brain is more plastic. I have met a fair number of people that had very happy childhoods but tanked into depression as adults - and I think that experience is quite different. Learning to cope with and overcome adversity when you never learned to do so early makes it much harder later. I don’t think that has so much to do with gender.


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## HIX (Aug 20, 2018)

Because they have to put up with men


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## InfiniteLightvoid (Jul 11, 2018)

Squirt said:


> I have a similar story as a female so no need for blasphemy.  I struggled with clinical depression, OCD, and severe anxiety from an early age and one day decided enough was enough and pulled out of it by the bootstraps. No fucks left to give, as you say. Although the inspiration was an emotional trauma that exhausted the remaining fucks.
> 
> My thought on it is that children tend to be more resilient and able to adapt than adults - they are still growing and developing physically, and the brain is more plastic. I have met a fair number of people that had very happy childhoods but tanked into depression as adults - and I think that experience is quite different. Learning to cope with and overcome adversity when you never learned to do so early makes it much harder later. I don’t think that has so much to do with gender.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not actually saying that when it comes to physiological predisposition... that men are predisposed to being the superior ones here. Women are the ones designed for both physical and mental /endurance/.

Testosterone is not a emotionally driven chemical, it has only 2 drives: Fuck it or kill it. Hence why men seem much more indifferent to romantic aspirations, more liable to just be involved with another person "intimately" for the physical pleasure. By and large men have the larger issue with, genuine intimacy. Estrogen on the other hand, makes the person more emotionally moody. Oxytocin, another Female dominant chemical, is very Bond/Intimacy oriented. So it makes sense that women's physiology, is wired to handle emotional processing.

Men on the other hand have a higher risk of Heart Disease and Strokes, most likely because their physiological system both physically and psychologically isn't wired to deal with "stress" as much. In other words, we aren't built to cry, because Crying kills us more so than it does women. It is literally more toxic to our physiology. This then makes sense WHY men just seem to jump straight to "Get the fuck up and stop crying." because for them... it's literally Fatal. Heartbreak can kill a person, it can kill women too but here's the kicker: Women are proven to be significantly faster at moving on than Men are. So while a woman can die from heartbreak if she endures is, she is much less likely to be stuck in it enough for that to happen. Making it much more likely for Men to die from it, as it's more of a pit trap for them. Even without outright killing, enduring heartbreak leads to self-destructive behavior such as drinking alcohol, rage, etc.

So basically, women all around have the inherent upper hand here. It's just that men have been CONDITIONED, to be the ones to get up and stop crying and to be "strong". Despite the fact that they are the ones with the handicap in this regard. That's all I meant. I mean by example of their behavior, the solution to Depression is simply to get up and stop crying. As insensitive as it sounds, that's basically the point. Depression is a mental disorder formed from imbalanced emotional expression, in other words... technically too much emotional sensitivity.

We've been conditioned to think the exact opposite, because we don't want to put more "weight" onto people who are psychologically weighed down. We think it will do the opposite and only hurt them further. Which is... dumb. We aren't breaking them down, we are lifting them up... literally because we are telling them to /stand up/.


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## Aiwass (Jul 28, 2014)

Hook said:


> Because they have to put up with men


Lmao


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## Kittyalert (Sep 11, 2018)

Menstrual cycles 

Sent from my SM-J327T1 using Tapatalk


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## WhatIsYourConfirmationBias (May 10, 2018)

If Depression were a song, it would be this: (Nice song, though)


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

Is this even true? There are higher and harder exceptions on men from society, family, friends, spouse and sometimes work.

If true then women are simply more emotional and decide to whine, worry and be depressed than figure out a way to get through w/e it is thats causing them distress. 

Simply look at each and every problem in your life, dissect it, put solutions to each dissected portion of the issue and put fourth a plan to resolve then execute with a reasonable timeline, do this every time without exception and you won't be depressed.


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## morgandollar (Feb 21, 2018)

Interestingly, depression is extremely prevalent among people with autism, even though something like 80% of autistic people are male.


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## Looniemoon (Jul 31, 2018)

Men are more motivated to solve problems on their own and women are more likely to rely on others. Both tendencies have their advantages and disadvantages.


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## ukulele (Jan 3, 2017)

a) hormones + hormonal imbalance (and having more "occasions" to get depressed like postpartum, menopause or even PMS/PMDD)
b) thyroid diseases are also more common in women, and they're a frequent cause of depression
c) women tend to ruminate more than men
d) they also could be less resilient to stress (because of c?), at the same time messing with their stress hormones


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

ENTJudgement said:


> Is this even true? There are higher and harder exceptions on men from society, family, friends, spouse and sometimes work.
> 
> If true then women are simply more emotional and decide to whine, worry and be depressed than figure out a way to get through w/e it is thats causing them distress.
> 
> Simply look at each and every problem in your life, dissect it, put solutions to each dissected portion of the issue and put fourth a plan to resolve then execute with a reasonable timeline, do this every time without exception and you won't be depressed.


Wow how ENTJ of you! If only it occurred to me to realise all the problems in my life and causes of my depression! That would make it all go away!

Already went through this, but it's too simple to state that men have more demanding expectations. Both genders have hardships and inequalities related to their roles. For example, women often have to work and raise a household at the same time, in many families and cultures. 

Your post also seems slightly sexist.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Kittyalert said:


> Menstrual cycles
> 
> Sent from my SM-J327T1 using Tapatalk


Women definitely get depressed/sad during menstrual cycles but I have reasons to doubt this is an ongoing thing like depression is. Even after using SSRIs, they still don't prevent me from feeling really sad before my period xD (then feeling more euphoric than usual a few days later, perhaps due to the NSAIDs that I take). This made me realise that my depression and PMS mood changes are actually quite separate. 

In short, the moods swings during PMS are quite temporary, and my SSRIs which relieve depressive symptoms have _no effect_ on PMS, which for me is a very brief depressive episode. 

This is perhaps because the cause of mood changes is different (for PMS it's hormonal) and in depression it is not usually linked to hormones unless due to hormone related problems like thyroid issues.


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## Paulie (Jun 23, 2011)

Brett slimeball Kavanaugh. That's why.


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## morgandollar (Feb 21, 2018)

ukulele said:


> a) hormones + hormonal imbalance (and having more "occasions" to get depressed like postpartum, menopause or even PMS/PMDD)
> b) thyroid diseases are also more common in women, and they're a frequent cause of depression
> c) women tend to ruminate more than men
> d) they also could be less resilient to stress (because of c?), at the same time messing with their stress hormones


Are OCD-like thoughts more common in women than in men? I've heard the disorder is slightly more common in female adults, but is actually more common in boys than in girls. But I think the gender disparity is small for the full-blown condition. I do wonder if women have more OCD-like tendencies in general though, eating disorders for example seem to be closely related to OCD.


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## HAL (May 10, 2014)

If women are statisically more likely to have depression, it's because they're more inclined to speak up about it, which bumps their numbers up.

But let's look at much harder statistics for a moment.










Darker green means a higher ratio of men than women commit suicide annually.

So women may speak up about their percieved sadness, but that doesn't mean men aren't suffering too. Indeed, the stats say men are suffering a rather worse fate overall.


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## ukulele (Jan 3, 2017)

morgandollar said:


> Are OCD-like thoughts more common in women than in men? I've heard the disorder is slightly more common in female adults, but is actually more common in boys than in girls. But I think the gender disparity is small for the full-blown condition. I do wonder if women have more OCD-like tendencies in general though, eating disorders for example seem to be closely related to OCD.


I have no idea, but it could be. ED, body dysmorphic disorder, they all seem to be more in common in women.

------
About suicides it could be because if you're in a deep(lethargic) depression you're unlikely to act. I think it's more likely to commit suicide when you manage to get out of that state/act/function with it. Which seems more common in men. They cope with it, till they don't.


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## ShashaCruz (Jul 20, 2018)

physical abuse


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## GoodOldDreamer (Sep 8, 2011)

It comes down to reporting and diagnosis. Societal norms/expectations. That kind of thing. Men don't have access to the support systems that women do, and are looked down upon for even needing them, let alone seeking them out. Women, on the other hand, are not only encouraged to seek help, but even without going to the pros, they tend to have friendship circles among them to get them through hard times.

I feel like depression is roughly the same among people, regardless of gender. It's just that women get reported for it more. Meanwhile, guys tend to die from it more and no one realizes until its too late. Also, men tend to attempt suicide with real purpose, where women will often attempt it, but not follow through all the way.

And then it's more likely that even if a man and a woman each get diagnosed by a doctor, the woman is more likely to follow the advice and the man is more likely to ignore the advice of the doc and not take the meds or whatever because he doesn't want to feel 'weak' or some silly thing. I mean, I've known guys who would never go to the doctor if not for their wives setting it all up and dragging them there, lol.


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## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

InfiniteLightvoid said:


> You're not going to like my answer... The difference is Strength.
> 
> This is coming from someone who has struggled with depression from childhood till age 18. I'm a true success story, despite being diagnosed with full on /clinical depression/ aka the /physiological/ disorder. I was one of the worst cases imaginable that depression can get to. But despite that I overcame it completely, and am genuinely /cured/.
> 
> ...


Totally ^^ this.

I have worked with many women who were in the same situation and men also. Often the men make the CHOICE to stop wallowing and on the average the women do not. Men own their feelings and women feel as if they have no choice in their feelings. This is the quintessential difference.

It is rooted in the default gender tendencies towards fear and order for men and towards desire and chaos for women. Even if things go very well for a woman amid default desire there can still be a choice, and often there is one, that things are not as cool and wonderful as they SHOULD be.  This delusion causes depression. It is a choice. Even if things go very badly amid default fear for a man there is the tacit ownership of choice and empowerment via accepting blame. This is strengthening. It allows one to choose to transcend (the) delusion (of freedom and desire). 

It is choice.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

It's not a choice. That is a ridiculous assumption and anyone can wallow in self pity. Anyone would be mentally healthy if they had the choice. 



HAL said:


> If women are statisically more likely to have depression, it's because they're more inclined to speak up about it, which bumps their numbers up.
> 
> But let's look at much harder statistics for a moment.
> 
> ...


The suicide rates argument is too simple. It is well known that men are more likely to use violent methods, while women used methods that are more likely to result in a failed attempt - a deliberate overdose is probably the most common method for women. When you ever heard about a female victim who jumped of a bridge? You don't, because it's more often who use these violent attempts that have a very low chance of surviving. 



GoodOldDreamer said:


> It comes down to reporting and diagnosis. Societal norms/expectations. That kind of thing. Men don't have access to the support systems that women do, and are looked down upon for even needing them, let alone seeking them out. Women, on the other hand, are not only encouraged to seek help, but even without going to the pros, they tend to have friendship circles among them to get them through hard times.



This is wrong. What gives you the impression that women are offered more support? There are helplines exclusively for men. How are women specifically encouraged to seek help? I did not have a friendship circle or anyone I trusted enough to tell. I never told my family, have never ever spoken to anyone about it except my doctor. Just because you're a woman doesn't mean you're going to talk to everyone about it. In many cases (like mine) they will keep it to themselves and try to hide it. Most people wait a while before seeking help for depression.


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