# Dear INFx men



## Blue Ribbon (Sep 4, 2016)

I was inspired by this thread to make this post: 

http://personalitycafe.com/infj-forum-protectors/960369-there-something-wrong-me-women.html

Dear INFx men: 

I love how kind and sensitive you guys are. I love how gentle and caring you guys can be. In a world where I'm surrounded by strong domineering sensing people, being in the company of someone who is quiet and understanding is like a breath of fresh air. I love your depth and emotional intensity. These qualities in a man make him stand out in a world where these qualities aren't traditionally masculine. 

A man who can speak from his heart is one who doesn't look away from himself. He knows his demons, he knows how to navigate the harsh inner landscapes of his mind. And better yet, he knows how to do so for his partner as well. He isn't afraid of emotional intesity, no that's his strength - that he can understand his partner better than she understands herself. He knows what it means to truly care - he knows real empathy. And that is very attractive. 
@witchhaven 

If you're an INFx who thinks he's lacking something, understand there is nothing wrong with you. But also understand that not every woman can learn to appreciate you as well. There is nothing wrong with you. You are a beautiful individual. And if a woman can't see that, there'snothing wrong with her either. It's just that it takes someone equally special to understand and appreciate you. 

Also ladies, what do you think of INFx men?


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## lavendersnow (Jan 13, 2016)

Empathy is attractive, it's as simple as that and INFX men have it in bucket-loads. What's not to like?


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## TheJ (Aug 3, 2015)

lavendersnow said:


> Empathy is attractive, it's as simple as that and INFX men have it in bucket-loads. What's not to like?


This is true. I'm an INFP male and I have a bucket of empathy right here. It's usually full of tears of self pity though.


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## Blue Ribbon (Sep 4, 2016)

TheJ said:


> This is true. I'm an INFP male and I have a bucket of empathy right here. It's usually full of tears of self pity though.


This post is trying to be uplifting...


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## TheJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Blue Ribbon said:


> This post is trying to be uplifting...


I find cynical humor uplifting between the bouts of crippling anxiety and depression.
Haha sorry, I'll go away now. You're very kind, I do appreciate the effort.


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## cozmicjack (Aug 29, 2016)

thanks

10th post woo 5 more to go


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## Belzy (Aug 12, 2013)

TheJ said:


> This is true. I'm an INFP male and I have a bucket of empathy right here. It's usually full of tears of self pity though.





Blue Ribbon said:


> This post is trying to be uplifting...


His response is similar to mine though, hehehehe. Oh 

But I have more issues/problems than just being overly sensitive and empathic.


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## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

lavendersnow said:


> Empathy is attractive, it's as simple as that and INFX men have it in bucket-loads. What's not to like?


Empathy and kindness are distinct. I think this is a common misconception around here.

You can empathise with somebody without actually doing anything to help them. At the same time, you can perform good deeds independent of empathy - you might feel obliged to help someone out of duty, or religious principles. Maybe a few of you think I've been beating this drum a little too often over the last few weeks, but it is easy for NFs to absorb somebody else's feelings, feel hurt, then stand up on their high horse and make some self-righteous comment that pisses everyone else off. 

I am a male NF. I am attracted to women who are stylish, creative, sensual and irreverent. Almost nothing about a woman will turn me off faster than a tendency to be offended about everything. Authenticity and ambition are much more valuable than virtue-signalling. After all, you only live life once...









@witchhaven

Do you have a pattern of ending up with the "wrong" kind of women again and again? Women who frustrate you, who can't relate to you and end up coming into conflict with you? If so, it is worth stepping back to assess whether your current tastes match up with what you actually _need_. 

You may need to change your technique, or move to another crowd/clique.


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## lavendersnow (Jan 13, 2016)

Rock Of Ages said:


> Empathy and kindness are distinct. I think this is a common misconception around here.
> 
> You can empathise with somebody without actually doing anything to help them. At the same time, you can perform good deeds independent of empathy - you might feel obliged to help someone out of duty, or religious principles. Maybe a few of you think I've been beating this drum a little too often over the last few weeks, but it is easy for NFs to absorb somebody else's feelings, feel hurt, then stand up on their high horse and make some self-righteous comment that pisses everyone else off.
> 
> ...


I didn't say nor imply that empathy makes a person good or kind. And I have no idea how your comment pertains to me.


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## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

lavendersnow said:


> I didn't say nor imply that empathy makes a person good or kind. And I have no idea how your comment pertains to me.


You said that INFx men have empathy in "bucketloads".

I am an xNFJ. I guess what I wanted to point out is that you're unintentionally stereotyping NF men, and this happens on the forum quite a lot. There are nuances within a type and understanding this will help you refine your own preferences. I mean, I sense that you and I probably wouldn't get on, but that doesn't mean that NF men in general are a bad fit for you.

While all Fe dom/aux feel empathy easily, we don't always _value_ it highly. My motives and fears will differ enormously from those of other posters in this thread, yet there's an assumption that we're all equally likely to be idealistic flower children. I have seen enough of the world to realise that humanity is not one and we are a weak, self-hating people. Right now, strength is direly needed. Compassion is not.

So you see, I am not an idealist. Instead, I am a creator. I absorb, put together and craft feelings into an objective work or set of ideas. I want to make this happen; it's not enough to simply dream. Everybody dreams, but only a few people have the drive to make those dreams real. So what matters to me is the ability to express myself in a way I feel is important. I want to make my mark on the world and be admired, even worshiped as a heroic figure during my life and after my death. Strong moral values can be a threat to my freedom, and this is why I often clash with 9s and 1s like yourself.

Basically there are NF men for many different sorts of women. I hope the women who read this post will take this principle to heart. The stereotypes of us all being effeminate, permanently offended moral policemen are simply not true. Take a chance on us, ladies. We will transform your world.


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## ShadowsRunner (Apr 24, 2013)

This is very nice but it's hard for me to believe anymore.

I just feel cascade of backwards rolling dark crash of emotions and spite for some reason. The world is ugly crass, cold, dark, selfish and always with a smile on it's face. It only ever pushes a nerve that strikes a button that only creates some internal malfunction and disbelief. 

"True self, thee, not mean for this world" 

But one for only lies and deceit; the celebration of empty promises and resolutions that I beholden from a wine that has been tainted.

A hail storm of tears, forever beckon and follow stead to trace the barren land.


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## helloimrachel (Sep 1, 2015)

INFx men, to me, are magical. I can't explain the amount of love I feel for them. What I most find beautiful it's the fact that they are different from the "typical male behavior". INFx men are innocent, quiet, kind, emotional, funny, reserved and the most important: empathetic. It's the type of guy that can sit with you, be in silence and enjoy it. Talk about deep stuff and reflect on this with you. They're the type of people who don't need too much stuff to feel entertained or to have fun. They don't need alcohol and party all night to have a great time. Idk if that's just me, but it seems that INF people need to feel protected and I've always wanted to protect people and help them. It's even better when this feeling is reciprocated. Whatever, I love even their style lmao... It's a shame I didn't find a lot of INF guys in my life, but I know that if I found one (please God), I'll feel happy and lucky aND I'LL HUG HIM NON STOP. They are the best. :love_heart:


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## lavendersnow (Jan 13, 2016)

Rock Of Ages said:


> You said that INFx men have empathy in "bucketloads".
> 
> I am an xNFJ. I guess what I wanted to point out is that you're unintentionally stereotyping NF men, and this happens on the forum quite a lot. There are nuances within a type and understanding this will help you refine your own preferences. I mean, I sense that you and I probably wouldn't get on, but that doesn't mean that NF men in general are a bad fit for you.
> 
> ...


So NF men don't have lots of empathy, is that what you're telling me?

You've said you want to dispel the points I have made, whilst suggesting that you can speak for all NF men, as varied as they are. Don't see an issue with that? Just because you are an NF male doesn't mean you know yourself more than I have known NF males in my life. Plus, you will in fact, if you actually paid attention, that this thread was clearly about INFX men, not an ENFJ like yourself.

It doesn't exactly make me receptive to discussing this matter with you when you've already pointed out that you don't think we'd get along, simply because of my enneagram type - which I'll add, has perfectionism and efficiency as our defining traits - not morality, which comes later. And considering _you_ brought this argument to me, did you seriously expect me to have any other reaction? Perhaps you need to reconsider your part in not getting along with 1s and 9s - the common thread amongst all these disputes is you.

Do not talk down to me.

You've made a huge number of assumptions about what I feel and think without asking for clarification. I know what I said and I stand by it. NF men have a lot of empathy - empathy doesn't make a person good, or nice or actively helpful but the empathy alone is attractive. 

Every NF is an idealist and I did not say that we were all equally empathetic. If you want to take up your issues with stereotypes, do it with someone else and stop projecting them onto me. You've created a one-sided debate by assuming you know everything that I'm thinking, and I do not appreciate it. And I can assure you, nothing you have written sounds attractive or alluring - no matter which way you intend to 'transform' a woman's world. Instead of trying to tell everyone how to think, and assuming that you know how they feel entirely about NF men, you should perhaps be more open to discussing a topic instead of ramming your view down someone's throat. Someone, I might add, who has said nothing that you implied and is done with this conversation.


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## Shodan (Nov 17, 2016)

Rock Of Ages said:


> The stereotypes of us all being effeminate, permanently offended moral policemen are simply not true. Take a chance on us, ladies. We will transform your world.


During my lurking days on this forum I noticed quite a few INFJ males complaining how society sees them as effeminate (all the time or sometimes). Wait, since when is that a bad thing? It's only bad if you care what society thinks and you wish to be a hardcore alpha, something you're not.

There's definitely a better, more humane way to present this but it's still too early over here, not enough coffee. Let's say that life is this huge, intricate machine with many mechanical parts. If you only have a screwdriver in your pocket, you're going to have a hard time trying to fix that machine once it starts to break down. But if you have a screwdriver, a hammer, a pair of pliers and so on, it will be much easier. You have the whole toolset.

You still won't be able to, say, chop as much wood as that other guy - you're perfectly able to do all such things, just not as efficient. But once he's done killing trees and he goes back inside to his woman, he won't be able to understand her on a deep level like you do, he'll only have a vague idea. You're at an advantage, you can do both things.

So, if a guy is already aware of his feminine side, he should embrace it and utilize it, not be ashamed of it. That's what makes him more complete as a human being.


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## Another Lost Cause (Oct 6, 2015)

People accuse NF males of being wet noodles loathed by all women, but I think a lot of them have a hidden Che Guevara side that can lead them to kill and maim their enemies with an efficiency and fanaticism that would cause most manly ST men to run for their godforsaken lives.


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## TheJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Shodan said:


> During my lurking days on this forum I noticed quite a few INFJ males complaining how society sees them as effeminate (all the time or sometimes). Wait, since when is that a bad thing? It's only bad if you care what society thinks and you wish to be a hardcore alpha, something you're not.
> 
> There's definitely a better, more humane way to present this but it's still too early over here, not enough coffee. Let's say that life is this huge, intricate machine with many mechanical parts. If you only have a screwdriver in your pocket, you're going to have a hard time trying to fix that machine once it starts to break down. But if you have a screwdriver, a hammer, a pair of pliers and so on, it will be much easier. You have the whole toolset.
> 
> ...


The problem I see is this: 
It has been my experience that women are infact often not attracted to sensitive men, and other men also expect a certain male T-type behavior out of other males. Males who are not inline with that and seem to want to cater to others needs are often dismissed as weak, are ignored, or bullied.
The NF type male who gets this sort of treatment is trapped between two opposite poles, one of wanting and caring about other people's needs, feelings and wishes of him- and the fact that what others seem to wish of him is to be more manly, strong, not easily shaken, protective, sure of himself etc... It leads to a paradox- conform to being a nonconformist.

When one is sure of oneself one often makes social mistakes, he hurts others and thinks he did nothing wrong or cannot comprehend what he did wrong- after all he followed what he deemed to be right, the fact people got their feelings hurt matters not, or it couldn't have been done any other way anyway, as it doesn't seem "rational".

When one is sensitive to others wishes or views- he has the choice, either give up what he thinks is right and replace it what others think is right- in order to not upset others, or fake your reactions and behavior, concealing what you actually think- to cater to what others want.
The first gets you targeted as weak or unworthy, unable to fight for yourself and your beliefs, the latter gets you seen as two-faced, a liar, unreliable, says one thing and does another.

The pros of being a sensitive/feminine male seems to be vastly outweighed by the cons, especially when most women I've seen do not seem to appreciate it. 

Sensitive in theory sounds great when you're thinking it aligns with words like passionate, caring, gentle, considerate because that's all the good sides that focus on you and your female needs (not talking about you Shodan, but rather the girls on this thread), but it also aligns with inconfident, weak-willed, easily demotivated, easily hurt. And I've yet to hear a girl mentioning "inconfident" in her list of attractive traits she wants in a guy.

And while I do appreciate this thread trying to boost up morale, it kind of pales in comparison to the average NF male life experience which seems to shout from all angles- start caring less or no one will care for you.


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## Hero of Freedom (Nov 23, 2014)

Shodan said:


> During my lurking days on this forum I noticed quite a few INFJ males complaining how society sees them as effeminate (all the time or sometimes). Wait, since when is that a bad thing? It's only bad if you care what society thinks and you wish to be a hardcore alpha, something you're not.
> 
> There's definitely a better, more humane way to present this but it's still too early over here, not enough coffee. Let's say that life is this huge, intricate machine with many mechanical parts. If you only have a screwdriver in your pocket, you're going to have a hard time trying to fix that machine once it starts to break down. But if you have a screwdriver, a hammer, a pair of pliers and so on, it will be much easier. You have the whole toolset.
> 
> ...


"Masculine/Feminine" are socially constructed labels made by the weak minded/easily manipulated. Look at Augustus/Octavian who was very emotional and cared for his looks heaps. They can change all the time overtime. In the height of the Roman Times to the Middle Ages it was for example considered "masculine" to show emotion. Passive-Aggression was everywhere in Roman politics.

I consider myself "just me" and neither on the label. If I did not need them I shouldn't have to completely transform myself or pretend to transform myself as a person in order to cater to the will of fallible beings called humans/mortals and only answer to something like a deity or righteousness/virtue and justice. As a "biological male" in school I was rejected by boy social groups and was a "lone wolf" but teamed up with the school staff/authority and always got the upper hand over them if they caused trouble. But I will still protect oppressed groups like the males you see as "feminine" because in my vision for a world it would be a more tame/peaceful one if those guys were more abundant with less need to use force. 

If I ran a society I would basically get the science division to work on an ethical eugenics program in order to research ways to make the human species in general more empathic, because men are "more influential" or make up a large portion it's important to improve them to be more virtuous. If there are more of them then something like "socialism" could work better because they are more cooperative/virtuous. We especially need more ISFJ males.

But kinda sad that civilized traits are jammed into gender labels or expectations. When they should be for people of all genders among all of humanity. What you would call "cowardice" I would call being logical. NT males also know this better than most, they won't listen if you shout "Filthy Coward!" at them and continue to pursue whatever they see as efficient lol.

What do you think robots replacing all the "masculine" jobs/tasks in the future for free/very cheaply btw would do?


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## Shodan (Nov 17, 2016)

TheJ said:


> The problem I see is this:
> It has been my experience that women are infact often not attracted to sensitive men, and other men also expect a certain male T-type behavior out of other males. Males who are not inline with that and seem to want to cater to others needs are often dismissed as weak, are ignored, or bullied.


That's true to some extent re:women, but one way to deal with that is *not* showing your hand straight away. One card at a time. That way you won't provoke the reaction which is a product of years of social programming - instant rejection of something that deviates from the supposed norm. It's not like sensitive men are only that - sensitive. It's not their only defining trait, they're not by default some teenager sulking in a dark corner who cries at the sight of kitties while listening to Coldplay.

It usually works if you initially show some universally acceptable cards which we all possess. When they accept you as "normal", *then* you show the entire hand, that's when you introduce sensitivity and they realize there's so much more than just "normal", a whole new dimension. You're not lying, you're not wearing a mask, you're simply showing some other aspects of your personality before you get to sensitivity. Peeling the onion layer by layer, tears don't start until you remove the outer layers. After all, it's only when the battle really gets serious that we introduce the heavy artillery :bwink: Nobody wants to see the climax of the movie as soon as the opening credits are over.

I couldn't care less what other males expect of me. It's their opinion and expectation, not mine; it's in their heads, not mine. They may have a problem with me, but I don't have a problem with myself and they will never convince me I have a problem because I *know* I don't. There's nothing wrong with me and everything wrong with them because some of them expect me to be like them. I don't expect of anyone to be like me.



> The NF type male who gets this sort of treatment is trapped between two opposite poles, one of wanting and caring about other people's needs, feelings and wishes of him- and the fact that what others seem to wish of him is to be more manly, strong, not easily shaken, protective, sure of himself etc... It leads to a paradox- conform to being a nonconformist.


That's only if he chooses to let it affect him in such a way. It's not a given. There's no rule that says their opinions are valid and you have to follow or agree with them. If you're trapped, it's because you trapped yourself by accepting the value system which doesn't align with your own. It doesn't have to lead to that paradox, just that goals have to be slightly rearranged. Yes, care about other people, but not by doing what they say; care implies doing things for others, but molding yourself according to someone's ideas of what you should be like is a disservice to yourself first and foremost, but also to them because the lie you become also extends to them. It's actually a closed circuit, a Moebius strip.



> When one is sure of oneself one often makes social mistakes, he hurts others and thinks he did nothing wrong or cannot comprehend what he did wrong- after all he followed what he deemed to be right, the fact people got their feelings hurt matters not, or it couldn't have been done any other way anyway, as it doesn't seem "rational".
> 
> When one is sensitive to others wishes or views- he has the choice, either give up what he thinks is right and replace it what others think is right- in order to not upset others, or fake your reactions and behavior, concealing what you actually think- to cater to what others want.
> The first gets you targeted as weak or unworthy, unable to fight for yourself and your beliefs, the latter gets you seen as two-faced, a liar, unreliable, says one thing and does another.


That's why you have to bring both and apply each according to the situation; more often than not you have to combine them. Some degree of maturity is required to be able to understand the consequences of social mistakes; that doesn't mean that being sure of yourself is the wrong approach. It also means that someone isn't as sure of themselves as they think. When you combine both views, the outcome is the only fair and reasonable one: "I understand your needs and I want to satisfy them; now, take a look at my needs because I have them, too."



> The pros of being a sensitive/feminine male seems to be vastly outweighed by the cons, especially when most women I've seen do not seem to appreciate it.


That's where the fault is, it's your own (still very limited) perspective/experience. I don't mean that as an insult, honestly. I went and checked out your age, I hope you don't mind. There's so many women out there that you still have to meet, but only if you want to. Plenty of opportunity, but you need to keep looking. Of course you're going to get hurt along the way, we all go through that, regardless of gender or type. But you can't expect to discover some buried treasure if you give up and drop the shovel after the first few hits. Hypermaterialistic women or those who don't care about sensitive men are not an axiom. If you accept them as a rule, if you implement that constructed rule into your system, then you have already defined your own future in a bad way.



> Sensitive in theory sounds great when you're thinking it aligns with words like passionate, caring, gentle, considerate because that's all the good sides that focus on you and your female needs (not talking about you Shodan, but rather the girls on this thread), but it also aligns with inconfident, weak-willed, easily demotivated, easily hurt. And I've yet to hear a girl mentioning "inconfident" in her list of attractive traits she wants in a guy.


It sounds like all those negative traits are exclusive to females. Those hardcore alphas can be weak-willed, easily demotivated or hurt just as well, they just don't show it because they're unable to express it. Or if they are, they do it far away from the eyes of the world. Personally, I'd never consider sharing my life with a girl who'd set a condition such as "I don't want you to be inconfident." I'm sorry, I don't want it either, but it happens to everyone at some point.



> And while I do appreciate this thread trying to boost up morale, it kind of pales in comparison to the average NF male life experience which seems to shout from all angles- start caring less or no one will care for you.


That's not the point. Start caring less about what others think or expect of you, start caring about yourself and what *you* want. It won't make you selfish, you'll still care about others but in a very different, healthier way.

Sorry if it's all a bit incoherent or if I strayed offtopic, still not enough coffee ._. halp


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## Belzy (Aug 12, 2013)

TheJ said:


> The problem I see is this:
> It has been my experience that women are infact often not attracted to sensitive men, and other men also expect a certain male T-type behavior out of other males. Males who are not inline with that and seem to want to cater to others needs are often dismissed as weak, are ignored, or bullied.
> The NF type male who gets this sort of treatment is trapped between two opposite poles, one of wanting and caring about other people's needs, feelings and wishes of him- and the fact that what others seem to wish of him is to be more manly, strong, not easily shaken, protective, sure of himself etc... It leads to a paradox- conform to being a nonconformist.
> 
> ...


Nice conclusion (and whole post as well), but I've figured the same


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## Shodan (Nov 17, 2016)

Chara said:


> "Masculine/Feminine" are socially constructed labels made by the weak minded/easily manipulated. Look at Augustus/Octavian who was very emotional and cared for his looks heaps. They can change all the time overtime. In the height of the Roman Times to the Middle Ages it was for example considered "masculine" to show emotion. Passive-Aggression was everywhere in Roman politics.
> 
> I consider myself "just me" and neither on the label.


Exactly. I use the terms masculine/feminine because people are used to them, it's easier for them to understand what I'm talking about. I don't see those manifestations of human behavior as two separate groups, they're parts of the same "toolset" I mentioned earlier.



> If I ran a society I would basically get the science division to work on a eugenics program in order to research ways to make the human species in general more empathic, because men are "more influential" or make up a large portion it's important to improve them to be more virtuous. If there are more of them then something like socialism could work better because they are more cooperative.


I'd never run a society or try to influence things globally. In macrosopic scale everything happens for a reason, and the system regulates itself. I'd never want to change all the people I dislike or disagree with. The system would mutate into something horrible, and I'd be effectively dead. There'd be nothing left to challenge me, no reason to be alive.



> What do you think robots replacing all the "masculine" jobs/tasks in the future btw would do?


It would probably make all the superhardcore manly men go insane and spontaneously combust. I doubt they'd suddenly start being more sensitive and caring because they're not used to weilding those tools, they're not even aware of them. It would be a catastrophic scenario, because *we need them*. Just like the world needs us, even if it doesn't always seem like it. Everything and everyone has a purpose.


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