# Who pays on a first date?



## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

WickerDeer said:


> It depends.
> 
> This is sort of a rant about trying to figure that out, and how it's more difficult to figure out when the man is more wealthy (based on personal experience, especially one person who was wealthy and enjoyed going out a lot):
> 
> ...


I actually agree with you here. Many young people submit to the extensive pressure from popular culture, which is to abandon good taste and spend beyond their means in order to show off, and they are heavily in debt as a consequence. While I am not poor, I prefer to invest what I save in the stock market, instead of shelling out $100 for a meal every week that I could create in my apartment for a fifth of the price. Does that make me cheap? Possibly some might view it that way - but not I. I pride myself on being as physically and mentally independent from the machinations of a mediocre society as possible.

My greatest fear is falling into a situation, whether by chance or design, in which I am made subordinate to someone else, held hostage emotionally, and forced to "prove myself", to suffer and erase my own dignity or be denied their praise and affection. I have a strong sense of honor and feel visceral abhorrence for sadism, emotional manipulation, deceit, intrigues, and schemes of any nature. Love should be a gift, not a prize to be won - yet time after time, I meet women with exploitative tendencies, who view me more as a money tree and biological dildo than as a person with my own needs and desires.

The men I know who buy into the loathsome knight-in-shining-armor nonsense have all unwittingly fallen into servitude and been castrated by women in their romantic relationships. She makes the rules, he pays the bills, and if he does not obey, she'll go on a sex strike. My brother is depressed and becoming an alcoholic as a result of this abuse - yet he still refuses to see cause and effect, stand up for himself, and leave the relationship. I want to avoid that happening to me and thus maintain my dignity as a man.

To end, I will quote another post I've made:



> Sex for me is primarily a source of pleasure and it's also a safe way to release emotional tension. As all I want is to have a good time with whoever I'm having sex with, power dynamics are irrelevant. However, I do think a lot of women do see sex as a means to power - and not incorrectly so, as there are so many thirsty men out there who have no boundaries and will do anything to get laid, regardless of how debased and humiliating it may be.
> 
> *The easiest way to tell if a woman respects men, is if she chooses not to use her sexuality as leverage to exploit male thirst for personal gain*.


----------



## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

Meliodas said:


> *I have begun to realize that I'm a psychological sadist of sorts *- but nothing too crazy, and it is all done in good humor.





Meliodas said:


> I have a strong sense of honor and* feel visceral abhorrence for sadism, emotional manipulation *and deceit of any nature.


Really? These two statements conflict.


----------



## Penny (Mar 24, 2016)

Meliodas said:


> This topic was prompted by an experience I had last night. I find this to be easily the most awkward part of going on a date with a woman.
> 
> I am going to blunt here - I find it extremely disrespectful for a woman to expect me to pay for her food and drinks on a date. I can understand a man paying if the two of you are already in a relationship and he has a lot more disposable income than you do, but if you wouldn't expect a friend or colleague to pay for you, it's hypocritical to expect a potential boyfriend to do it. Men are not walking ATMs. While I agree that men are not entitled to sex from women, many ignore the corollary, which is that women are not entitled to my time and money. If I go out on a date with someone, it's important that they want to get to know me better and are not just after a free meal.
> 
> ...


In my mind, whoever suggests the date should pay unless they cant afford to and state that a condition of the date is that the other party would have to pay for themselves. This goes for any kind of date.


----------



## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

Penny said:


> In my mind, whoever suggests the date should pay unless they cant afford to and state that a condition of the date is that the other party would have to pay for themselves. This goes for any kind of date.


If your friend invited you out to a pub, would you expect him or her to pay for your drinks? Of course not.

So, don't expect that to happen on a date.


----------



## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Edit:


----------



## Penny (Mar 24, 2016)

Meliodas said:


> If your friend invited you out to a pub, would you expect him or her to pay for your drinks? Of course not.
> 
> So, don't expect that on a date.


i suppose you're right in a case like that and if a guy asked me on a date I'd only accept if I was prepared to pay for myself or if I didnt have enough money to then I'd make sure to let that be known, but generally if I invite someone out with me I'll pay unless I can't afford them. (I'm not a drinker lol so that has never come up for me.) I mean, there's a difference between want go to the juice bar with me and let me take you out to the juice bar, my treat? I mean it all probably depends on how you word your invite. I mean, I wouldnt expect someone to pay for my coffee, or dinner, but if he offers to pay it's always appreciated. If he offers to pay then it's assumed he is interested in a "relationship". If we each pay our own way then we're just hanging out as friends or possible fwb that could turn into a relationship. That's just how it is. Women are in a vulnerable position as childbearers. We need to know that we could be taken care of if we got impregnated or something. In a case where that's not an issue I wouldn't know. 

So, I think it would depend on your approach and/or wording of the invite.


----------



## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

WickerDeer said:


> I think it's important to be a bit relaxed about principles unless they are really important.
> 
> So while I prefer to gain skills and knowledge before something fleeting like a fancy meal, I think it's good to be open to that type of experience.
> 
> ...





Penny said:


> i suppose you're right in a case like that and if a guy asked me on a date I'd only accept if I was prepared to pay for myself or if I didnt have enough money to then I'd make sure to let that be known, but generally if I invite someone out with me I'll pay unless I can't afford them. (I'm not a drinker lol so that has never come up for me.) I mean, there's a difference between want go to the juice bar with me and let me take you out to the juice bar, my treat? I mean it all probably depends on how you word your invite. I mean, I wouldnt expect someone to pay for my coffee, or dinner, but if he offers to pay it's always appreciated. If he offers to pay then it's assumed he is interested in a "relationship". If we each pay our own way then we're just hanging out as friends or possible fwb that could turn into a relationship. That's just how it is. Women are in a vulnerable position as childbearers. We need to know that we could be taken care of if we got impregnated or something. In a case where that's not an issue I wouldn't know.
> 
> So, I think it would depend on your approach and/or wording of the invite.


Perhaps you misunderstand - I've never said that I am implacably opposed to eating out, in fact, I do so several times a week precisely for the reason you mentioned - to discover new dishes and refine my palette. I attend opera and travel around the country for the same reasons. Also, I said that _after_ a relationship is established, I would be happy to offer some financial support to my girlfriend if she lacked the means to entirely pay for these pleasures. I am not senselessly cruel or a miser. I just don't want the possibility of a relationship to be contingent on me shelling out money - because if I wanted to do that, I'd just hire an escort.

Also, it is unreasonable to have the rule that who asks, pays, when 99% of the time it is the man who asks the woman out. To me that's just sophistry.


----------



## aurora-rosa (Apr 11, 2021)

The person who invited.


----------



## Summer70 (Feb 27, 2021)

I always offered to pay the meals on my first dates, despite me being a woman. Any man I date is my potential « Best Friend Forever », so it just seems normal to want to offer the meal.

Inviting the other person over, is one way among many to shower the person with care and affection.

Someone insisting to go split before the first date even begins... well of course I would pay my part, but it sounds so dry to me. It doesn’t foster trust and connection at all.

note: I only dated people I already knew and liked. I have no experience with strangers.


----------



## Queen of Cups (Feb 26, 2010)

Me and my friends actually do routinely pay for each other. Kind of “I get it this time, you get it next time.”

Once my best friend and I were out for breakfast and I was paying while he was in the bathroom and some dude said “A gentleman should never make a lady pay. You need to find a better dude.”

I just laughed.


----------



## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

aurora-rosa said:


> The person who invited.


If you expect to be financially compensated just for turning up on a date, the only thing that differentiates you from a whore is that the latter will at least make an effort to give pleasure to the man who pays for her company. What do you offer?

Sincere relationships are built on mutual affection, not transfers of money, so if you want to be treated with dignity please don't take other people for granted.


----------



## Penny (Mar 24, 2016)

Meliodas said:


> If you expect to be financially compensated just for turning up on a date, the only thing that differentiates you from a whore is that the latter will at least have sex with the men who pay for their company.
> 
> Sincere relationships are built on mutual affection, not transfers of money.


I think it's your attitude that's the problem. It's not being financially "compensated" getting your dinner paid for, it's being taken care of in a gentlemanly fashion. How do you know if some woman is just using you for a free meal lol? Well, that should be estimated _before_ inviting someone out for a date.


----------



## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

Penny said:


> I think it's your attitude that's the problem. It's not being financially "compensated" getting your dinner paid for, it's being taken care of in a gentlemanly fashion. How do you know if some woman is just using you for a free meal lol? Well, that should be estimated _before_ inviting someone out for a date.


You do not need to spend money in order to treat someone with care and kindness. I think that expressing warmth, excitement, and good humor on a date, and showing genuine interest in his or her life through what you discuss, is so much more important.

If you genuinely think that paying for your own food and drinks means that you haven't been treated well, you are entitled and a part of the problem.


----------



## Dreamcatcherplaceboeffect (Dec 24, 2020)

Pre-marriage I kind of had a system. I’d always offer to split the check, or if it was a longer date... then maybe one person buys dinner and the other person pays for the activity.

If my date insisted on paying, I tended to view him more favorably, although splitting the cost wasn’t a dealbreaker.

If the date was _not_ going well, or I was not attracted to my date, I _always_ insisted on paying so I didn’t have to worry about my date feeling used after the fact. So, if I was pretty adamant about paying for all of it, that was usually a very bad sign. 😂 

As a general rule of thumb, I do believe the asker should pay. If I initiated hanging out with a friend (male or female) and I knew that money was tight for them, I would always just pay for whatever it was I suggested we go do. In terms of dating; however, I seldom made the first move, but if I did, I expected that I would pay.


----------



## Penny (Mar 24, 2016)

Meliodas said:


> If you wouldn't pay for me, why should I be expected to pay for you?


If I asked you I would though. I don't honestly expect guys to pay, especially since I seem to have a thing for poor guys lol, but a lot of women do and a lot of women are gold diggers too, but in all honesty even the poor guys insisted on paying if only for the first date so I dont have a proper framework for this conversation I think. If you're so cheap you cant shell out like 20 bucks to try and win a girls favor, then you may as well go for the escort. (though hopefully they would be much more expensive.) If it's because youre broke then you need to find a way to get more money or use what you do have more wisely. Women can earn just as much as any guy and especially nowadays where most men have turned into gold diggers as well you better believe we're on the lookout for getting gold dug too. No woman wants a stingy guy. An alternative is to ask them over for like a dvd viewing and popcorn or something. A perfectly good humble date that wouldnt cost much and would be just as appreciated by some.


----------



## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Edit: sorry, I don't think my contributions are that helpful and its not a topic I'm knowledgeable about.


----------



## Penny (Mar 24, 2016)

Meliodas said:


> You do not need to spend money in order to treat someone with care and kindness. I think that expressing warmth, excitement, and good humor on a date, and showing genuine interest in his or her life through what you discuss, is so much more important.
> 
> If you genuinely think that paying for your own food and drinks means that you haven't been treated well, you are entitled and a part of the problem.


no you dont need to spend money to show someone care and kindness, but you do need money to take someone out to eat. if you two agree to go out to eat and each pay your own way thats fine, but if the woman you ask isnt interested in paying her own way then it doesnt automatically make her a whore or a gold digger. maybe shes just looking for someone who is either financially secure or not a miser. is that really too much to ask of some guy who wants to get into your pants?


----------



## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

Penny said:


> If I asked you I would though. I don't honestly expect guys to pay, especially since I seem to have a thing for poor guys lol, but a lot of women do and a lot of women are gold diggers too, but in all honesty even the poor guys insisted on paying if only for the first date so I dont have a proper framework for this conversation I think. If you're so cheap you cant shell out like 20 bucks to try and win a girls favor, then you may as well go for the escort. (though hopefully they would be much more expensive.) If it's because youre broke then you need to find a way to get more money or use what you do have more wisely. Women can earn just as much as any guy and especially nowadays where most men have turned into gold diggers as well you better believe we're on the lookout for getting gold dug too. No woman wants a stingy guy. An alternative is to ask them over for like a dvd viewing and popcorn or something. A perfectly good humble date that wouldnt cost much and would be just as appreciated by some.


I strongly object to the idea that (1.) I need to "win a girl's favour" in the first place, and (2.) that this requires me to spend money on her.

I object to the first condition because it immediately places me in an inferior psychological position to her - that of a mistress and her vassal - where I must "prove myself worthy" while she sits back and judges my efforts. In such a dynamic, she sets all the rules, and I cannot allow someone to have that kind of power over me. As I have said before, this attitude is very destructive to genuine intimacy because it implies that love is a prize that men must "win" through pain and suffering, instead of a gift that you give someone freely. If I'm required to spend money on a woman to somehow "earn" her affection, then I would much rather opt out of dating entirely and stay single.


----------



## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

" "


----------



## aurora-rosa (Apr 11, 2021)

Meliodas said:


> If you expect to be financially compensated just for turning up on a date, the only thing that differentiates you from a whore is that the latter will at least make an effort to give pleasure to the man who pays for her company. What do you offer?
> 
> Sincere relationships are built on mutual affection, not transfers of money, so if you want to be treated with dignity please don't take other people for granted.


But this applies to meetings between friends as well.
Imagine: You invite your friend to eat at home, watch a movie, and ask him to bring something. '-'


----------



## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Bella2016 said:


> If he randomly contacts me on a dating site and wants to meet me, even if he dislikes me a lot on the date, he should definitely pay, because he's the one who initiated it, and I was responding to his interest. Who says I would even go out for a meal myself? Maybe I haven't been able to afford to eat out for years. So if he doesn't pay, that's downright rude in that instance and even though he never wants another date, he doesn't deserve to date anyone if he behaves in that manner.


Wow. Entitled much? As long as you agree to the date you're showing interest in him as well and are just as good a candidate to pay for your own meal that you BOTH agreed to get together for.


----------



## Six (Oct 14, 2019)

Fru2 said:


> 6 is a nice number, the number of humans, isn't it? For in the 6th day man was created perfect in the image of god, but then the creation of Eve ruined everything. This is the same belief that moneye encourages, the one eye, Sauron, the ruler of the dead, who leads the mass to fulfill his prophecy through unconscious action. I know that only a fool can tell that the emperor has no clothes, but perhaps only a fool can see? If so, then don't mind a fool such as me.







No, how much can you see?


----------



## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

Six said:


> No, how much can you see?


Eye, the designer of the system. Did you know that everything comes in threes? So do the layers of reality.


----------



## Six (Oct 14, 2019)

Fru2 said:


> Eye, the designer of the system. Did you know that everything comes in threes? So do the layers of reality.


The deadlights!


----------



## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

Six said:


> The deadlights!


He's IT!
Getting people blinded by the light of the Sun is an old trick of the priests.
Edit: Not to mention the stars!


----------



## eeo (Aug 25, 2020)

Meliodas said:


> Also, I can count the number of times I've been asked out by a woman on one hand. Very few women will initiate any sexual interest with a man, simply because they know that if they look pretty and wait, eventually a man will come along and do all the hard work for them.
> 
> So again, it's not spending money that bothers me, but the entitlement of women who expect me to give them something, whether it's money, time or energy, for no other reason than that they are women. They are spoiled and lack any sense of humility or gratitude.


Would the kind of women you've been interested in ask men out and initiate sexual interest first? If they have, then you just haven't met enough of them. But if they haven't then your expectations for the kind of women you like and the kind of women who express themselves like that might not really match. Dominant women may also have different criteria than what you seem to offer at first glance, so that may be reason you haven't been approached by many as well.

But sexual double standards exist. A lot of the times women asking men out and initiating sexual interest are not exactly seen favourably by a lot of men. So the majority of women might not express themselves like that out of fear of being seen as something they are not and don't want to be mistaken as. And a lot of women are aware that men could expect them to give them something for no other reason than that they are men.

Edit: There is absolutely nothing wrong with women asking men out on dates or initiating sex. I'm just saying there might be serious reasons behind why they don't, and not only that they're spoiled and lazy.


----------



## Six (Oct 14, 2019)

Fru2 said:


> He's IT!
> Getting people blinded by the light of the Sun is an old trick of the priests.
> Edit: Not to mention the stars!


Well this was weird.


----------



## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

Six said:


> Well this was weird.


Anytime!


----------



## Penny (Mar 24, 2016)

Meliodas said:


> I would be less prickly about the idea of paying for a date if more women walked the talk. Not once has a woman offered to pay for me, even when the cost of the date was like $3, for a cup of coffee. Also, I can count the number of times I've been asked out by a woman on one hand. Very few women will initiate any sexual interest with a man, simply because they know that if they look pretty and wait, eventually a man will come along and do all the hard work for them.
> 
> So again, it's not spending money that bothers me, but the entitlement of women who expect me to give them something, whether it's money, time or energy, for no other reason than that they are women. They are spoiled and lack any sense of humility or gratitude.


Just the fact that you are generalizing and calling all women spoiled and lacking in humility or gratitude leads me to believe that the problem is not with the women's attitudes but possibly yours. I'm not trying to start a fight or insult you but what we often accuse in others is what we are most guilty of. (That's a quote of sorts) They are spoiled. You have money to invest. How many women do you know have enough funds to invest? They probably spent all their money trying to attract you. They lack any sense of humility. Yes the pleasure of your company is so great that they should forego everything that they are taught and accept your offer of "splitting the bill" so while they get a salad you order the steak and lobster and expect them to pay for half. Gratitude. Essentially you would be thanking them for accepting your offer to go out with you by paying for their meal. Do you expect them to be grateful you asked them out? Especially since it seems you are asking women on dates that you don't know very well. This puts them in a vulnerable situation. You could be an ax murderer and as a man are usually much stronger and they are trusting you. Is that not worth treating them to a meal? What I think you might underestimate is your competition. If three guys asked them out, who will they choose? The one who said a condition of the date is that we split the bill? You say youd be willing to pay later, but you already blew your chance to make a good first impression. Which is usually very important. Also just because a woman expects you to pay for the first date doesnt mean she will always expect you to pay. It goes both ways.


----------



## attic (May 20, 2012)

When I first saw the title of this thread it didn't seem so interesting, but it really ties in to a lot of aspects of society, and attitudes around equality, generosity, property...

The part about being practical and wanting someone who can provide for a child was a bit eyeopening for me. I mean, I know social security nets are not great in many places, but that giving birth to a child can literally cost a fortune... The emphasis many have on financial security as one priority they look for in a partner makes more sense to me now. I feel privileged in not having to give that stuff much thought at all.

-------
I think it becomes rather symbolic of foundational values when thinking more about it. For me some of them conflict. There are the power balances, and it seems to me the wish to split the bill comes from a wish to be the equal of the partner in some way? That both should make an effort to contribute. But then there is also other power balances, and I think that is where the custom, that is often unclear though I think, of the one inviting being the one to pay, comes from, as the one who asks out and choose the place to go then get the power to decide how much is being spent, more or less, as if going to a fancy place, and in that kind of situation it might be difficult for the other person to change plans and ask to cancel the reservation and go have the 1 euro chips to go and have a walk instead. There might also be power imbalance in that there is stigma about not having money, and people might not want to reveal that so early on, or are proud and don't want to remind about it all the time, or force the other person to miss out on fun things they want to do. I have been in that kind of situations several times, though not dates, it is tricky, and makes me feel both ashamed and a bit angry about how things are. Then there is the powerbalance with debt of gratitude...

Part of it seems more to do with values around generosity, and around property. My ideal is a gift economy, that if something is needed and someone can provide it without much problem, it is given, very simplified. Part of that is that things that are sort of "registered" as belonging to someone, is rarely fully or even mostly the product of their own work(when you start to try to bring in all things that lead up to something, it gets really difficult to keep track of what each person has really earned), and even when it is, it is not always possible for other's to do the same, but the world is better if people get what they need whatever their ability. In closer relationships, I think many have a somewhat similar ideal, people contribute best they can, and we do our best to help, whether it is with money or other things that take time, effort or energy. I could imagine, that the insistance on shared bills even before a date, could be seen as a warning sign, of having a more transactional view of relationship and not one based in solidarity. Not showing much generosity could be because one doesn't want to be taken advantage of, or because of not having much and being protective of what little one has, but if able to, showing generosity in various ways can sometimes give a sense of the person realizing what is one's is not set in stone, and that people have different abilities and circumstances that limit them. But it depends on how it is done and expressed, sometimes it comes off as "there's money/food here, so lets use/eat some", without emphasis on the giving, and sometimes it can be more with a feeling of... charity, that the giving increase the status of the person, hierarchical, or that there is a debt of gratitude. I am talking in a more general sense, but I think some of this might influence how one see the matter of who pays on dates.

----------------

The point about men making more money in general, and that them paying makes up for a little of that sort of, I think I need to think a bit more about. It makes sense, but instinctively, it seems like a trap of some kind... I guess it draws my thoughts to old times, and the idea that men should have much higher wages than women as they are providers. It becomes a circle of sorts, if men are expected to pay because they make more, it can then be argued they need to make more as they are expected to pay for things, and women are then continually disadvantaged and dependent.


----------



## lilysocks (Nov 7, 2012)

I always think the biological-foresight rationale is silly. People imo have far simpler, more emotional and more immediately personal reasons for most of the stuff that they do. 

When I was in my late 20s and using a phone-based 'date' line to make a few platonic friends, I had a lot of conversations with a lot of men around topics like this. I made it clear as a bell in my profile that I was NOT in the partner market and I stuck to it. So I was kind of a neutral party, I guess, where there was nothing to win or lose by discussing concepts. 

A few things came clear out of it. One was how many men both resented and yet relied on this simplistic system for signalling 'worth'. 'women are all materialistic and shallow, but let me tell you again how much money I make. ' and this to a woman who didn't want them, and who they didn't want their own selves. A reflex. 

I'd point out how that was a double standard, and the ones who didn't cop attitude were people I kept talking to.


----------



## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

Since red pills guys are so miserable and lonely, they need to lose some weight, get ripped, cut their long hair and beards, learn to dress, become chivalrous, become more masculine and pay for dates. /oh yes I went there and yes, this is deliberate irony


----------



## Queen of Cups (Feb 26, 2010)

This thread made me think of the song No Scrubs. And it’s stuck in my head.

A plague on all y’all’s houses.


----------



## aurora-rosa (Apr 11, 2021)

eeo said:


> Would the kind of women you've been interested in ask men out and initiate sexual interest first? If they have, then you just haven't met enough of them. But if they haven't then your expectations for the kind of women you like and the kind of women who express themselves like that might not really match. Dominant women may also have different criteria than what you seem to offer at first glance, so that may be reason you haven't been approached by many as well.
> 
> But sexual double standards exist. A lot of the times women asking men out and initiating sexual interest are not exactly seen favourably by a lot of men. So the majority of women might not express themselves like that out of fear of being seen as something they are not and don't want to be mistaken as. And a lot of women are aware that men could expect them to give them something for no other reason than that they are men.
> 
> Edit: There is absolutely nothing wrong with women asking men out on dates or initiating sex. I'm just saying there might be serious reasons behind why they don't, and not only that they're spoiled and lazy.


best argument so far.

It's funny that he complains about women not having initiative, but he is interested in women like that. 😂


----------



## aurora-rosa (Apr 11, 2021)

on dates the man and woman sit facing each other, when they should sit next to each other..


----------



## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

Penny said:


> Just the fact that you are generalizing and calling all women spoiled and lacking in humility or gratitude leads me to believe that the problem is not with the women's attitudes but possibly yours. I'm not trying to start a fight or insult you but what we often accuse in others is what we are most guilty of. (That's a quote of sorts)


I never said that all women were spoiled and lack gratitude, but it is a common problem and this thread has unfortunately shown that.



Penny said:


> They are spoiled. You have money to invest. How many women do you know have enough funds to invest? They probably spent all their money trying to attract you. They lack any sense of humility. Yes the pleasure of your company is so great that they should forego everything that they are taught and accept your offer of "splitting the bill" so while they get a salad you order the steak and lobster and expect them to pay for half. Gratitude.


I have said in previous posts that the date options I've chosen are inexpensive, precisely because I didn't want the girl to feel uncomfortable. Why do you keep ignoring that?



Penny said:


> Essentially you would be thanking them for accepting your offer to go out with you by paying for their meal. Do you expect them to be grateful you asked them out?


Yes, I do expect a girl to be grateful that I've asked her out, as it's an opportunity for her to learn something new and possibly start a romantic relationship as well. I would hope that pleasant and entertaining company would be a reward for her in its own right (it certainly is for me), but if it is not, we have incompatible perspectives on life and no amount of money I give her is ever going to change that.



Penny said:


> Especially since it seems you are asking women on dates that you don't know very well. This puts them in a vulnerable situation. You could be an ax murderer and as a man are usually much stronger and they are trusting you. Is that not worth treating them to a meal? What I think you might underestimate is your competition. If three guys asked them out, who will they choose? The one who said a condition of the date is that we split the bill? You say youd be willing to pay later, but you already blew your chance to make a good first impression. Which is usually very important. Also just because a woman expects you to pay for the first date doesnt mean she will always expect you to pay. It goes both ways.


It all comes down to trust: do you assume the best in someone you meet or assume the worst? The probability of being murdered by your date, while you meet for a coffee over lunch, is so low that it's laughable you would ever consider it. Ironically, by speaking about the importance of first impressions you've also proven my point about superficiality - if a girl reacts negatively because I didn't pay for her meal, even if we had discussed a range of interesting topics and had sexual chemistry, then what does that tell me about her motives? Think carefully about that before you decide to lecture me again.

Also, other men are not necessarily my rivals or enemies, so I don't feel envious if I see a man with a girl around his arm; good for him. I live life according to my own rules. You can choose to accept or reject me, but either way, I know what I want and I am not going to abandon my principles just to get my dick wet.


----------



## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

eeo said:


> Would the kind of women you've been interested in ask men out and initiate sexual interest first? If they have, then you just haven't met enough of them. But if they haven't then your expectations for the kind of women you like and the kind of women who express themselves like that might not really match. Dominant women may also have different criteria than what you seem to offer at first glance, so that may be reason you haven't been approached by many as well.


Reciprocity - as well as taking responsibility for your own feelings - is a big part of growing up and being an adult. I don't expect a woman to do all of the hard work in a relationship for me, as that would be unfair on her, but I dislike the implicit expectation that one party - me - is always expected to initiate, contribute and push things along, while she remains merely a passive recipient of that. This suggests to me that she's a leech and my needs aren't that important to her.

I don't desire to be dominated, sexually or otherwise, nor do I desire to dominate someone else. What I want is a woman who I can respect.



eeo said:


> But sexual double standards exist. A lot of the times women asking men out and initiating sexual interest are not exactly seen favourably by a lot of men. So the majority of women might not express themselves like that out of fear of being seen as something they are not and don't want to be mistaken as. And a lot of women are aware that men could expect them to give them something for no other reason than that they are men.


I cannot comment on what you've experienced, but almost every single man I've talked to has said he wished women would be more direct about their interest (or lack of interest). This doesn't mean you should grab a guy's crotch and pull his pants down on a date. It just means being up front about how he makes you feel. If you like him and want to see him again, just tell him. Be respectful of his time and energy, and don't play games.


----------



## Ssenptni (Mar 26, 2021)

I'll pay for the date, the uber, the babysitter, and give her some walking around money too.


----------



## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

Bella2016 said:


> If he randomly contacts me on a dating site and wants to meet me, even if he dislikes me a lot on the date, he should definitely pay, because he's the one who initiated it, and I was responding to his interest. Who says I would even go out for a meal myself? Maybe I haven't been able to afford to eat out for years. So if he doesn't pay, that's downright rude in that instance and even though he never wants another date, he doesn't deserve to date anyone if he behaves in that manner.


Sweetheart, the only kind of men who are going to tolerate such astronomical vanity on a date are emotional masochists. I wish you good luck. 😂


----------



## Astrida88 (Jun 6, 2019)

Meliodas said:


> I cannot comment on what you've experienced, but almost every single man I've talked to has said he wished women would be more direct about their interest (or lack of interest). This doesn't mean you should grab a guy's crotch and pull his pants down on a date. It just means being up front about how he makes you feel. If you like him and want to see him again, just tell him. Be respectful of his time and energy, and don't play games.


Wishes and reality don't go together.
I am direct and I will say what I think/feel about the guy. But they get hurt and tell me goodbye then. Just because I said something along the lines "You know, you are not really my type, but I like your personality and we seem to have common interests so it's not a lost case". This is exactly what I mean (I am demisexual so I can see myself potentially falling for them later if we start as friends even if I don't like them physically at first) but they read it as "You got friendzoned". Even if I try to explain the demisexual thing they no longer listen.
Which makes me think all they wanted was sex.
Well, I don't mind casual sex (I did it on a second date before, after confirming some intellectual connection at the first one) but I won't do that with someone who I don't like physically for a while, unless there is a deep intellectual/emotional connection first.

I also wonder if some guys are not aware how physically repulsive they are.

Would you go for someone fat, with body hair in random places and a weird haircut or bald head that makes his head look like mishaped egg and spreading some weird odor? (I am more sensitive to smells than most people so I can smell various things even if people bathe, especially people who smoke, drink alcohol or have underwear dirty with precum are disqusting to me, as well as people who try to hide their body odor with strong perphumes).
Guys really have no self awareness.

Women like this happen too, but they are rare because we actually own and make proper use of mirrors and cosmetics and we are not afraid of having hair on our heads, making up for head shapes with various haircuts. Although sometimes even we also smell funny, especially during menstruation or ovulation.

I am not saying everyone should go to gym regulary and use a lot of cosmetics - I don't like it either.
But if you are not good looking enough and not even trying to fix that because you are "a guy and not gay" you need to show other qualities (such as money of personality) to be consideres a potential romantic interest. That's normal.


----------



## marybluesky (Apr 23, 2012)

I always offer to split the bill and am ready to use my bank card.

But many girls are pissed off if a boy expects them to go Dutch. Not only that, I've met boys who believe that it's better to have a financially demanding GF as if makes them work more and be more successful. Some think that if a girl doesn't make you pay, she should have a secret defect & is compensating by not taking your money.


----------



## Bella2016 (Mar 5, 2013)

Ock said:


> Wow. Entitled much? As long as you agree to the date you're showing interest in him as well and are just as good a candidate to pay for your own meal that you BOTH agreed to get together for.


I haven't really found that guys are consistently great at knowing what they're looking for (unless they're older), and I'm a lot more discerning now myself after wasting time and money while giving guys the benefit of the doubt (when they don't give me the option of working out whether we're a good match because they won't communicate enough on-line before-hand). Conclusion was that dating sites are the worst thing anyone can do to themselves, and the best way to meet someone is to have real life friends and meet someone through those friends. There's a lot more chance it will work out for so many reasons and then sure, happy to pay for myself because I'm actually going to enjoy myself (and chances are that it has been mutual interest in meeting up given that you both have enough information about each other to go by).


----------



## Bella2016 (Mar 5, 2013)

Allostasis said:


> The problem with this standpoint, as I see it, is that your response to his interest already makes it "mutual".
> Anything less than that sort of makes you "rented" and puts him into an unequal position where he has to not only pay for you, but also convince you to be interested in him, since you are not.
> Not the best way to start things going between two equal independent beings, imo.


Meet on-line. He refuses to communicate on-line. What am I supposed to do? Not meet up with him. I've learnt that, no need to tell me.


----------



## Bella2016 (Mar 5, 2013)

impulsenine said:


> lol.
> You can say you can't afford to eat there, where he invited you.
> Or if you are afraid to be honest, you can say that you are not used to eating in the city (or in that place), because you do not consider it worth the expense / you make better food / you like it elsewhere cheap.
> And you can suggest better meeting places.
> ...


That's what I learnt. And then after that I learnt to avoid dating sites altogether and never to go on a date with a stranger who I knew almost nothing about.


----------



## sandras (Jul 8, 2018)

Definitely the males...


----------



## Bella2016 (Mar 5, 2013)

Andy 8184 said:


> Do you also believe that a woman that contacts a man on a dating site and asks him out should pay for his meal even if she doesn't like him, and if she doesn't pay she is a horrible person that doesn't deserve to date anyone?


I can't imagine a guy being so easily swayed to go on a date with me or any other woman unless he really did see something in her. I used to be more willing to trust a guy's judgement on whether he was interested in me or not, but since realised that was a huge mistake.


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

sandras said:


> Definitely the males...


Why.


----------



## marybluesky (Apr 23, 2012)

@Astrida88 
The direct approach with guys hasn't worked for me either.

Despite you, I'm the type who places the guy in attractive/unattractive categories right from the start, as I know my sense won't change over time. Have tried it before, it doesn't work. Then I decide not to go on the second date. I don't tend to say directly that I haven't been sexually attracted to him, as many people imply it themselves & I know it's not pleasant to hear such a comment; but if the guy insists on asking why & I say the reality, he gets upset/ enraged, and accuses me of being superficial/entitled. 

It's the consequence of the direct approach.


----------



## Andy 8184 (May 24, 2021)

Bella2016 said:


> I can't imagine a guy being so easily swayed to go on a date with me or any other woman unless he really did see something in her. I used to be more willing to trust a guy's judgement on whether he was interested in me or not, but since realised that was a huge mistake.


Is that a no?


----------



## Behnam Agahi (Oct 27, 2020)

Whoever invited the other for a date 🤔
But it's really good to always pay for your own dinner, I don't remember someone else paying for me and not returning the favor by paying for them later.


----------



## Bella2016 (Mar 5, 2013)

Andy 8184 said:


> Is that a no?


I guess you're talking about a woman who is 10/10 in looks and personality and can therefore get a date by asking, in which case, if she gets it so wrong and chooses someone she doesn't find attractive in either looks or personality and therefore hates the date, she is obviously severely lacking in judgement and deserves to make up for her mistake by having the courtesy to pay for the date to at least compensate slightly for her mistake.


----------



## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

Always seemed self-evident to me that each person pays for their own food and drinks, unless one person specifically offers to pay or you agree to take turns in paying.


----------



## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

Astrida88 said:


> Wishes and reality don't go together.
> I am direct and I will say what I think/feel about the guy. But they get hurt and tell me goodbye then. Just because I said something along the lines "You know, you are not really my type, but I like your personality and we seem to have common interests so it's not a lost case". This is exactly what I mean (I am demisexual so I can see myself potentially falling for them later if we start as friends even if I don't like them physically at first) but they read it as "You got friendzoned". Even if I try to explain the demisexual thing they no longer listen.
> Which makes me think all they wanted was sex.


If you give a man mixed, contradictory messages about how you perceive him, he has good reason to believe that you are leading him on and/or are incurably passive and will never make up your mind. I would have reacted in the exact same way the guy you met did - I'd cut my losses, grumble and sulk for a few days, and then move on to the next girl once I am in a more sprightly mood. Also, the "all they wanted was sex" complaint completely ignores the fact that most men require a physical, sexual connection with a woman in order to feel love for her. Words mean nothing to us unless they are entirely congruent with actions.

Therefore, if you are demisexual, I would make this clear early on, ideally before you go on a date. That way, the guy will have a much better idea of what you expect, and is less likely to lose interest in you.



Astrida88 said:


> I also wonder if some guys are not aware how physically repulsive they are.
> 
> Would you go for someone fat, with body hair in random places and a weird haircut or bald head that makes his head look like mishaped egg and spreading some weird odor? (I am more sensitive to smells than most people so I can smell various things even if people bathe, especially people who smoke, drink alcohol or have underwear dirty with precum are disqusting to me, as well as people who try to hide their body odor with strong perphumes).
> Guys really have no self awareness.
> ...


There are a large number of young women in my vicinity who have unnaturally dyed hair, thick-rimmed glasses, are covered with dreadlocks, tattoos and piercings, bark and swear like a drunken sailor, smell of vape smoke and stale African semen, and have the intellectual curiosity of a geriatric gnat with advanced Alzheimer's disease - yet they expect to be treated with deference on a level that, in the past, would have only been shown to a princess of the realm. Slovenly aesthetics may affect both sexes, but men are at least more realistic about what they have to offer.

As Polish culture differs somewhat from my own, I cannot speak for the men whom you have dated, but I at least am 6 ft 2, have long blonde hair, defined facial features, and a toned physique. I do not smoke or drink alcohol, and I always take care to shower, to dress tastefully, and to speak with clarity, wit and elegance. Therefore, I don't believe for a moment that my appearance holds me back. You do not have to take me at my word about this either, as I've posted pictures on the site that you can see for yourself.


----------



## Andy 8184 (May 24, 2021)

Bella2016 said:


> I guess you're talking about a woman who is 10/10 in looks and personality and can therefore get a date by asking, in which case, if she gets it so wrong and chooses someone she doesn't find attractive in either looks or personality and therefore hates the date, she is obviously severely lacking in judgement and deserves to make up for her mistake by having the courtesy to pay for the date to at least compensate slightly for her mistake.


No, I'm not talking about a woman like that. I'm talking about average women. It's FAR easier to get a date as a woman, what are you talking about? You can see that on any statistic from dating sites and in real life too.

But no matter what gender invites the other out, expecting them to pay is a bad idea. By that logic they should choose what you get to eat. What if you order the most expensive thing on the menu? Or if you just go out with them because you want a free meal?


----------



## Bella2016 (Mar 5, 2013)

Andy 8184 said:


> No, I'm not talking about a woman like that. I'm talking about average women. It's FAR easier to get a date as a woman, what are you talking about? You can see that on any statistic from dating sites and in real life too.
> 
> But no matter what gender invites the other out, expecting them to pay is a bad idea. By that logic they should choose what you get to eat. What if you order the most expensive thing on the menu? Or if you just go out with them because you want a free meal?


Well I must be well below average, because I wouldn't be able to get a date with a guy I was interested in if I asked him out. Of course I order the most expensive thing on the menu, but it's only a few dollars difference. Why would I choose something that I either can't eat or don't want to eat to save a few dollars? And who in their right mind suffers a terrible date with a stranger just to get a free meal?


----------



## Andy 8184 (May 24, 2021)

Bella2016 said:


> Well I must be well below average, because I wouldn't be able to get a date with a guy I was interested in if I asked him out. Of course I order the most expensive thing on the menu, but it's only a few dollars difference. Why would I choose something that I either can't eat or don't want to eat to save a few dollars? And who in their right mind suffers a terrible date with a stranger just to get a free meal?


Depends on your standards. If they're too high of course you won't. But same goes for guys and they have it kind of worse. Don't you get messages on dating sites? 

Idk, if I asked someone on a date and they ordered the most expensive thing on the menu, didn't even offer to pay for it or split the bill and instead told me that I have to pay because I picked them and I have to make up for my mistake there wouldn't be a second date. Are you sure it's not your attitude?


----------



## Bella2016 (Mar 5, 2013)

Andy 8184 said:


> Depends on your standards. If they're too high of course you won't. But same goes for guys and they have it kind of worse. Don't you get messages on dating sites?
> 
> Idk, if I asked someone on a date and they ordered the most expensive thing on the menu, didn't even offer to pay for it or split the bill and instead told me that I have to pay because I picked them and I have to make up for my mistake there wouldn't be a second date. Are you sure it's not your attitude?


Just work with your standards and I'll work with mine. Thanks.


----------



## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

marybluesky said:


> I always offer to split the bill and am ready to use my bank card.
> 
> But many girls are pissed off if a boy expects them to go Dutch. Not only that, I've met boys who believe that it's better to have a financially demanding GF as if makes them work more and be more successful. Some think that if a girl doesn't make you pay, she should have a secret defect & is compensating by not taking your money.


The behavior of the men you describe is so foreign to me, that I cannot help but wonder if they and I belong to different species.


----------



## Penny (Mar 24, 2016)

@Melodias

"So again, it's not spending money that bothers me, but the entitlement of women who expect me to give them something, whether it's money, time or energy, for no other reason than that they are women. They are spoiled and lack any sense of humility or gratitude."

Okay so perhaps I read it wrong, you are referring to women who are like that, not saying all?


----------



## Penny (Mar 24, 2016)

Meliodas said:


> This topic was prompted by an experience I had last night. I find this to be easily the most awkward part of going on a date with a woman.
> 
> I am going to blunt here - I find it extremely disrespectful for a woman to expect me to pay for her food and drinks on a date. I can understand a man paying if the two of you are already in a relationship and he has a lot more disposable income than you do, but if you wouldn't expect a friend or colleague to pay for you, it's hypocritical to expect a potential boyfriend to do it. Men are not walking ATMs. While I agree that men are not entitled to sex from women, many ignore the corollary, which is that women are not entitled to my time and money. If I go out on a date with someone, it's important that they want to get to know me better and are not just after a free meal.
> 
> ...


so just to quote the original post. I've never had this issue so I cant say lol. But I agree it is disrespectful but at the same time the man paying for the first date is like a societal norm. Its a societal expectation that the man should pay so you are up against a lot. Just saying. In my opinion it's a courtesy that is not expected but appreciated. I wouldnt think less of a guy that accepted my offer to pay for my half of the meal, but to have him state that before going out I think would be a turn off. It's a matter of delicacy I think. How much I liked him would depend on my acceptance of the date or not or if I went back for a second. Maybe you saved yourself from a bunch of gold diggers with this policy. 🤷‍♀️

eta-all men are ax murderers until proven elsewise


----------



## VinnieBob (Mar 24, 2014)

Often the male 
I am a boomer gen
it should be the person who asked


----------



## Fennel (Jan 11, 2017)

If I may ask, what do you want to offer to someone you're dating?
And how about in the context of a relationship? What do you want to be when you're with someone special?


----------



## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

Fennel said:


> If I may ask, what do you want to offer to someone you're dating?
> And how about in the context of a relationship? What do you want to be when you're with someone special?


I have answered the question about what I have to offer a woman in another thread, so check my posting history in S&R if you are interested.

Your second and third questions are difficult for me to answer, because my relationship goals are continually modified as I gain experience and discover new information. I also don't think that there is one, single way to love.



Six said:


> @Meliodas
> 
> Hidden Self-Portraits in Paintings, from the Renaissance to Today - Artsy
> 
> ...


I don't know whether the "you" here is directed at me, personally, or if it is being used in a more abstract sense, but I will assume the former as you have quoted me. I am not going out of my way to find mentally ill girls, quite the opposite. Unfortunately, you usually don't know whether someone is mentally ill or not until you meet them in person and talk for a while.

I am first and foremost a tactician - I don't have fixed long-term goals. On first dates, my objective is to get some idea about my date's worldview, personality, strengths, and weaknesses, and then figure out how compatible they are with my own. A secondary objective, if the first has been met, would be to generate some sexual attraction and set up a second date. On the second date, my objective is to escalate that attraction and create a concrete, physical connection. The exact methods I use to achieve an objective are always adjusted, as best I can, to suit the situation that I'm in (unless I _want_ to create some tension, which happens occasionally) along with any cues that I receive from the girl. If I make a mistake, it is usually because the girl hasn't expressed what she wants from me, which forces me to make a guess and hunches are not always going to be correct.

I don't agree with the dichotomy you have created of my needs vs her needs. My aim is to create a situation that is mutually beneficial.

If I can think of the reasons that a date hasn't worked out for me, the most common among them are:

1. Conflicting relationship objectives (e.g. one person wants to have sex now, and the other feels unsure about it and wants to wait indefinitely)
2. Conflicting relationship expectations (e.g. one person thinks a man should always place a woman's needs above his own, the other thinks whose needs take priority should depend on the situation)
3. Conflicting priorities (e.g. one person thinks that jokes about sex, race, and religion are great, whereas the other feels that they are offensive and inappropriate)

If I feel frustrated, it is because most people where I live - men as much as women - are comfort seekers who don't share my interests and worldview. They struggle with directness, avoid impersonal and abstract conversation topics, are very reluctant to commit to anything, have a tendency to be sentimental, and don't express much if any emotion overtly. This creates obvious issues, as I usually don't know how someone really feels about me unless I push them very hard. What I don't want is to be three or four dates in, having spent a lot of time (and money) on the girl, and _still_ have no clarity. The principles that I mentioned earlier in the thread were designed to prevent me from being strung along.

Because much of the above is at heart a cultural problem, and I'm unwilling to change my image to fit in better here, the most prudent course of action would be to leave the country. Unfortunately, I have committed to completing my degree in NZ, so I will be stuck in a shitty situation for a couple more years at least.


----------



## Six (Oct 14, 2019)

Meliodas said:


> I have answered the question about what I have to offer a woman in another thread, so check my posting history in S&R if you are interested.
> 
> Your second and third questions are difficult for me to answer, because my relationship goals are continually modified as I gain experience and discover new information. I also don't think that there is one, single way to love.
> 
> ...


Ah, well.

Nobody's saying the game isn't fucked up at the moment - but at the same time I can't help but feel that sort of circumstance allows the innovative to thrive.

It's not good in the long term obviously and I'd love to know what recipe is necessary to fix all this decay in Western civilisation - however I have increasingly started to think if it isn't just harsh, harsh f-ing consequences it's going to take people accurately figuring out the void which has been left by religion and coming up with a codified answer to it.


----------



## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

Meliodas said:


> This topic was prompted by an experience I had last night. I find this to be easily the most awkward part of going on a date with a woman.
> 
> I am going to blunt here - I find it extremely disrespectful for a woman to expect me to pay for her food and drinks on a date. I can understand a man paying if the two of you are already in a relationship and he has a lot more disposable income than you do, but if you wouldn't expect a friend or colleague to pay for you, it's hypocritical to expect a potential boyfriend to do it. Men are not walking ATMs. While I agree that men are not entitled to sex from women, many ignore the corollary, which is that women are not entitled to my time and money. If I go out on a date with someone, it's important that they want to get to know me better and are not just after a free meal.
> 
> ...


So far, I had the luck of no girl ever expecting me to pay for her food and drinks on a date.

But if it came down to it, I would have considered a lot more factors. It depends on my level of interest in the girl, if I like her a lot, I would definetly pay her on a first date, if not and she's just an interest, someone that I would like to get to know but may or may not want to be with, I would expect to split the bills.

Telling to a girl that you expect to split the bill may be honest but also sounds rude.

We no longer live in the 20th century when women couldn't get a job, a house or any form of private property and had little rights, today women can do as much as a man. Isn't equality in rights suppose to go hand to hand with equality in responsability? Otherwise, you're not really equal, or you are but some are more equal than others.

So women, can theoretically pay for the bill, which is why I expect the default stance to be _"we split the bill"_ unless discussed otherwise. In my first dates, I always expected to be the one who paid for the bills, not because I considered it normal but because I had an interest in the girls I dated, so far I had no date out of mere curiosity, to see what that person is like, when I asked for a date I was already interested in that person and had a fairly good idea about what is the other person like.

However, although I expected to be the one who pays and had no issues with it because of my level of interest in that date, they offered to split the bill. At first I rejected, using the same logic that I'm the one who invited them, but after they insisted I gave up.


----------



## ESFJMouse (Oct 13, 2020)

I'm a lady and regardless of who I was with I would probably just pay out of politeness (friend or whoever). In terms of dating..at least for women it is a good idea to split it or arrange to pay for another aspect of the date. I'm pretty sure there is no such thing as a 'free date'. The more expensive the more expectations (I would think??)Also, this is unfair to men as they have many expenses too. (especially young college men or starting their careers). But unless I was in a very serious relationship I would just keep it to very reasonably affordable stuff. Now... if you want things to be more serious than maybe change your perspective a bit, but first few dates/months I think 100% splitting by taking turns paying for different aspects. i.e. dessert at a very nice cafe after dinner or something. splitting can feel weird so maybe have a two part date? If she can't meet you halfway that says a lot about the tragetory.


----------



## SgtPepper (Nov 22, 2016)

Meliodas said:


> This topic was prompted by an experience I had last night. I find this to be easily the most awkward part of going on a date with a woman.
> 
> I am going to blunt here - I find it extremely disrespectful for a woman to expect me to pay for her food and drinks on a date. I can understand a man paying if the two of you are already in a relationship and he has a lot more disposable income than you do, but if you wouldn't expect a friend or colleague to pay for you, it's hypocritical to expect a potential boyfriend to do it. Men are not walking ATMs. While I agree that men are not entitled to sex from women, many ignore the corollary, which is that women are not entitled to my time and money. If I go out on a date with someone, it's important that they want to get to know me better and are not just after a free meal.
> 
> ...


The best approach to this, and relationship issues in general, is understanding that none of these online responses matter. All that matters is the agreement and attitude of the person you're currently dating. Don't see it as "girls", see them individuals, not because it sounds nice but because you'll run into issues if you forget they don't function as a collective. Develop your filter and develop yourself, becase as is in any relationship you get what you put in.


----------



## Tripwire_Desire (Jul 8, 2017)

Traditionally speaking, the man is supposed to pay in full. But in this day and age, women want to be treated as equals, so a lot of them prefer to meet half way and split the bill right down the middle. Personally, I don't mind paying in full. The problem is, when you pay for the bill in full (and the other persons know you're that type of person), it opens the door to be exposed to users and abusers alike. I can't help but feel that dates are like job interviews. But then again, my dad never taught me how to talk to people; let alone women. My social awkwardness is apparent and my frame of reference is extremely limited. I could "widen my horizons", but let's face it... what's the point? Just as SgtPepper said, none of it matters in the long run. It's all bullshit anyway. I may be a little too pessimistic here by saying this, but... people are like burlap sacks filled with crap. Poke a hole in it, and it's going to come out somewhere. The only thing you can do is make sure it doesn't get on you or your hands. Cause once you're involved with someone, it's only a matter of time before you're waist deep in it.


----------



## FreeKekistan (Mar 4, 2015)

If I would be dating today the following statements would be true:

1. I would be FUCKED and not in the good sense.
2. I would date a more conservative or traditional woman.

If there were no traditional women left, she would have to pay half the bill, because equality means responsibility not just benefits.


----------



## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

Uh, the one who proposes the date...? Traditionally that's typically been the man, and also men have had the breadwinner status so it kinda makes sense that's been the expectation.

I think it is pretty reasonable that if it's your proposition and you're trying to get with the person you're pursuing, then you should show them you're serious about them and committed enough to your own ideas that you will gladly offer to pay for the whole thing. This generally will give a good first impression.
If the woman wants to split the bill, that's cool, but I wouldn't recommend even bringing this issue up. Let her do that of her own volition without needing it to be demanded of. The onus is by default on the one organizing the outting that the guest is placing their trust in. It seems like basic social etiquette to me.

In a similar situation, I wouldn't invite a platonic guest over to a dinner party and then be all like _"Oh by the way, you have to pay for the food you eat."_
It'd be rude. It makes one appear miserly and overly-concerned with expending their own resources on other people, which is particularly strange in a dating context if you so desire to be with that person. It's not attractive.

If money is a concern, then don't date or don't have ones that cost much or anything.



> Now, I know many girls think that the person who proposes the date should pay, but that is just a rhetorical sleight of hand because women, as we all know, are hardly ever the first to express sexual interest.


So what? The principle is still agreeable in its reason even if it isn't being defaultly beneficial to our dicks or wallets.
If all things were equal then you would have no problem with it. So instead of focusing on the principle as if there's a problem with it, perhaps you should focus on why women would hold back from being more sexually forward like men.
Could a big reason be because of a long history of puritanical shaming of sexual expression, especially in females? Even today that still lingers in the air.
If we would like women to be more forward, so that things are more equal in who is first to express sexual interest, then societally we gotta become a lot more healthy in our attitudes and views on women, sex and even ourselves and what being male means.
We've progressed a lot over 100 years on that, because while women might still be more cautious of being sexually forward than men, they are undoubtedly much more forward today than they were like in Victorian times and prior.


----------



## Rathalos (Aug 25, 2021)

Even if you don't believe in politics and doesn't care about it, if you're in america or any 1st world country you'll notice a trend. 

Woman who are _liberated_ and those woman who are *traditional/conservative *in one point of your life sex with multiple woman would lost its thrill and you'll finally just wanna set a family with someone, you think a liberated woman who thinks sex is just something you do because you want to is a perfect fit to bear your child and grow old with you?


----------



## Glittris (May 15, 2020)

You do, kindly..., thank you ^_^

100% of the time it is you who invited me to this date, so now when I am finally here, you now have the privilege to have me in person here..., but it also means you have the duty to direct where this night is going... _theehee_ ^^


----------



## Rathalos (Aug 25, 2021)

Glittris said:


> You do, kindly..., thank you ^_^
> 
> 100% of the time it is you who invited me to this date, so now when I am finally here, you now have the privilege to have me in person here..., but it also means you have the duty to direct where this night is going... _theehee_ ^^


Lmao... i wanna agree so bad.. but knowing girls actually do this to get free meals makes my heart drop.


----------



## thisisme (Apr 11, 2010)

Whoever asked should treat--with friends or dates. imo. If the person wants to split it let them. Who cares.


----------



## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

It never fails to blow my mind how peter pannish dating has become. Conservative males who refuse to pay while insisting that women should be submissive, nurturing and supportive of them, caring full time for the emotional and sexual welfare of their peter pan males.


----------



## Rathalos (Aug 25, 2021)

mia-me said:


> It never fails to blow my mind how peter pannish dating has become. Conservative males who refuse to pay while insisting that women should be submissive, nurturing and supportive of them, caring full time for the emotional and sexual welfare of their peter pan males.


Liberal males who refuse to pay while insisting that woman should be submissive 

There i fixed it for you. Conservative males tend to go on a date for potential marriage we don't waste our time for hookups so of course we date our fellow conservative woman and if we're in a bit of a raunchy mood we go to the other side and just casual fck the women who thinks hanging their boobs in a public place and abortion be a sport in the name of feminism because they are way easier to bed with.


----------



## Glittris (May 15, 2020)

Rathalos said:


> Lmao... i wanna agree so bad.. but knowing girls actually do this to get free meals makes my heart drop.


Well, I do not really know the dating routines in your culture...

Protip, I never date, I am just busy with work.

If I would date, I simply just assumes that the _tomboy_ do pay the first date, since I am too busy to spend time here just waiting... She is the one who have to hunt me down in the first place, and I also hope she it worthwhile enough, else it is her loss, since I do not hunt, I am the hunted... ^^


----------



## MsMojiMoe (Apr 7, 2021)

I can’t speak for others only myself

as a mid age female, and knowing my own history in dating

i like to do all the paying, this doesn’t always happens but I’m very flexible, I try not to go on dates so I feel I may subconsciously made it very tough to date me


its funny… physically I’m very soft (I love being a female), dainty, not physically strong…a lot of ppl think I’m a push over but mentally im very willful. In boot camp towards the end …my company commander told me I was like God’s personal pit bull…idk why God, I’m not religious but he made his point, lol

reasons
1. I hate the feeling of being trap, feeling obligated, feeling like a child or under/less than a guy

2. I don’t like things use against me and this is something some men would use against me in the long run, …It has been done in the past to me, and I see it done all time….even in marriage…”I’m the one that pays for everything”….im not even going to entertain that thought….if I pay for everything, no worries, don’t like anyone getting leverage over me

3. being independent was hard work for me, no college etc., and very important…both my parents kinda abandon me at different times in my childhood, (im fine) and basically always had only myself to count on, there were ppl that did help me along the way…not making this into a sad story, but to understand mentality of needing to be in complete control of myself…I have trust issue when it comes to depending on others, otherwise I’m fine

with that being said, I like to be independent not to make men feel less or unhelpful, but it’s for me to feel secure and to be able to trust my own judgements and one reason I like to be independent and not have to depend on a man is bc I want it to be true love, not bc it’s a tradition/role, or bc it Would be easier/financial …so many ppl stay in relationship bc they can’t afford to get out or have a place to go (all genders)…I’m not going to put myself in that situation , ever

4. I prefer to be the one who is in control, until I think you are safe and have integrity…that’s mean l like to pay for the date, but also, I will do all the driving or we can met there, I must be my own transportation bc I’m not getting trap with someone I can’t stand, or place I can’t stand…I’m like this with friends and family too. Most ppl don’t mind me doing all the driving, so it works out, mostly.

5. I don’t seem to be very domesticated, I have tried, believe me. I cant seem to hold on to a relationship at all, about 3 months. Then I lose interest or something, I don’t understand it, myself. But also, knowing this, now, about myself I tend to only go on dates where they insist, bc I hate rejection so I try not to reject others, but I feel bad bc I almost know this is not going to turn into anything long term, and out of guilt, I guess I feel the need to pay, so he doesn’t feel used or jaded when I break it off…but he will feel that way anyways…so I really try not to date. I still like the idea of dating esp since I’m getting older, maybe one day.


in my world…
I prefer to do the paying, but Im willing to let him, only the first time, but I’m perfectly willing to meet on a picnic …you can bring the drinks and dessert and i can bring the food ….so something more like that


----------



## FreeKekistan (Mar 4, 2015)

MsMojiMoe said:


> in my world…
> I prefer to do the paying, but Im willing to let him, only the first time, but I’m perfectly willing to meet on a picnic …you can bring the drinks and dessert and i can bring the food ….so something more like that


See, I think that's reasonable, even if I think you focus too much on not having anything asked from you. What kind of people do you date that you fear that something will be asked of you if someone pays for dinner? But you do want to remain independent and therefore do something about it by paying for your own stuff, unlike the "strong woman" you see today, where she wants to be independent but wants someone else to pay for stuff. Your solution is understandable and I can appreciate your approach. I find it is fair.



mia-me said:


> It never fails to blow my mind how peter pannish dating has become. Conservative males who refuse to pay while insisting that women should be submissive, nurturing and supportive of them, caring full time for the emotional and sexual welfare of their peter pan males.


I don't think you quite get it. If you're talking in general, conservative males want to be the provider and believe in traditional gender roles. I'm not conservative, I am center right, but then again, I know that lefties think that anything to the right of Stalin is basically Hitler, so nuance is lost.

I clearly said: If I would be dating a more traditional woman, I would assume the traditional role, if I didn't have a choice and had to date a "modern" woman, then she would have to pay her share. See, the way I see it, you can either have chivalry or feminism but not both, because that would just be female supremacy and I'm not indulging in that fantasy.


----------



## HAL (May 10, 2014)

If someone asks me out, then immediately mentions that we should be splitting the bill, I would see it as a red flag.

I'm a guy by the way.

The reason I say it's a red flag is because it sounds like they don't really care about getting to know me, they care about :S splitting the bill.

My logic is this: If I wanna go on a date with someone, I'll think of something that doesn't cost any money. If it costs money and it's my idea to do it, then I'll say that I'll pay for it, because it was my idea. How awful would it be if your date said they couldn't afford it? Or they paid for it while feeling financially insecure for the whole time?

Everyone I've been out with, whether it turned into a relationship or not, has been of the unspoken give-and-take mentality, where one pays for something at some point, then the other pays for something else later on. It balances, and there's no need to openly discuss anything.


----------

