# What senses can you imagine and how clearly?



## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Allostasis said:


> 1. 99.999% intj
> 2-6. I can reproduce all senses at the level close to a real experience.
> Sorry, I was not asked but thread caught my eye.


No invite needed— or now you have one.  Could you go into the questions a bit deeper?


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> No invite needed— or now you have one.  Could you go into the questions a bit deeper?


Sure, was just answering from phone and tl;dr version of answers is just "yes".

2. Visual


> How does your brain experience visualization when your eyes are closed?


As if I have another set of eyes in a different dimension.


> Can you think of colors? Can you picture an apple?


Yes


> Can you think of what your loved ones look like? What acquaintances look like?


Yes, even after many years.


> Do you see background detail clearly if you decide to picture an apple or a person? Can you picture an alligator ice skating? Do you see it in cartoon or like a real alligator on a skateboard or can you do both?


Yes and I can do both. It can be real or in cartoon or in anime or just in an abstract half-rendered shapes


> Can you picture yourself snorkeling with a top hat on? Does the hat stay on?


Yes. It does whatever I want.


> Do you need to work to imagine the details of fish and water or does that come very easily?


No, they instantly show up.


> How long will this stay in your mind after not actively recalling it anymore?


As long as I want.
Visual images can persist for a long time. I can create short movies out of them or schemes from which I can decode a lot of data.


> Can you look all around you and see all the detail, shadows and sunlight?


Yep.


> Can you picture yourself somewhere you’ve never been? Imagine people clearly who you’ve never seen?


Yes, there is an half-conscious act of pulling up various "materials" from a pool that can be used to randomize and mold objects. I can imagine detailed faces of non existing people.


> What about in dreams while asleep?


I rarely see dreams, but they are equally vivid (not more)


3. Sound


> Can you hear sounds?


Only if I want to.


> Can you hear a bird singing? Can you play a song from the radio in your head?


Yes


> Can you think of what someone from your past’s voice sounds like? Can you hear exactly some things that they said?


Yes, in verbatim for some cases.


> Can you imagine a new tune? Can your brain make a mash-up?


Yes


> Can you do more advanced things, like does your brain make symphonies?


I can generate music from bits and pieces, but lack education, motivation and skill to make something worthwhile out of that.


> What about when dreaming while asleep?


Same as in 1.


4. Touch


> While touching nothing with your hands, can you imagine touching something furry or wet?


Yes, I sometimes pet cats inside my "dimension", because I like how soft and squishable they are but don't have real ones.


> Can you imagine/recall certain textures of loved ones and clothing?


Yes, anything.


> Can you imagine the pain from burning your finger clearly as if it had happened?


Yes. Not only pain. Cold, heat, elasticity, electricity, anything.


> What about when dreaming when asleep?


Same as in 1.


5. Smell


> Can you think of something that smells sweet or sour? Can you think of vanilla and smell it? A strawberry?


Yes.


> Are there certain smells you can recall exactly and other’s not?


No.


> What about how hugging your loved ones smells? What about creating a perfume? Imagine mixing strawberry and vanilla and that flower you like together?


I can, but it is a bit more challenging, as if I have to stop breathing / rewire neural circuits to reproduce smells 


> What about mixing “bad” smells together? Rotting meat and a latrine with old fish?


They are simulated separately, not as a mix.


> What about when you are asleep dreaming?


Don't remember smells in dreams.
Overall seems like it is one of the weakest senses compared to others.

6. Taste


> Can you imagine/taste sweet or salty? What about bitter end sour? What about tasting an orange and then a grapefruit?


Yes, easy. Can imagine what aftertaste will be as well.


> Or is it almost like you are actually tasting it?


Actually eating.


> Can your brain make asparagus with cheddar cheese and rosemary? Can you taste cinnamon rolls with cardamom and cherries?


Yep. Now I am hungry.


> What about while asleep dreaming?


Same as 1.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Allostasis said:


> Sure, was just answering from phone and tl;dr version of answers is just "yes".
> 
> 2. Visual
> 
> ...


I’d say you have some of the clearest reported “mind’s eye” “mind’s nose” “mind’s tongue” etc. That you don’t often dream or remember dreams seems to be often reported by Ni doms for some reason (there are some other dream threads created by @ai.tran.75 or me where I saw this to be a trend, although not even at a 75% rate, probably as other Ni doms do report dreams).

I wonder what all of these inner senses really means for anything and how it all develops.


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> That you don’t often dream or remember dreams seems to be often reported by Ni doms for some reason


Interesting, not sure how to explain correlation should it prove to be statistically significant.


> I wonder what all of these inner senses really means for anything and how it all develops.


I view them as a consequence of the willful/conscious application of sense-related neural networks to memory instead of direct sensory input.
And clarity as a side-effect of the increased interconnectedness of brain architecture, which makes conscious control over other modules more accessible.

Alternative factor : I didn't practice, but I think it might help with improving clarity by the same principles that make learning possible. To some extent.

Consequences are potentially huge.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Allostasis said:


> Consequences are potentially huge.


I think the potential consequences is what I am exploring at this time. I have seen some interesting things being studied. One study that I couldn’t get the full text for mentioned creativity in music in the mind together with psychopath tendencies. Hopefully I can actually get to some real research so that I can decide if that is something connected or to look at. A few other studies showed that music in the mind is usually not unpleasant unless you have OCD. So there might be a lot of nuance. 

What would be your hunches on the consequences of developed imagined senses be? I’m curious because this is the thing that I think I made these threads for is to suss out the the potential and this all seems to be a new area of study. 

Did you watch the videos on aphantasia? It is interesting what it affects and what it doesn’t seem to affect. At Harvard recently they are looking into imagination for smell. Also a study came out about music in the mind and increased incidental correlation with memories. Okay hen you pair all of this with MBTI it becomes even more fascinating, I’d say.


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## Windblownhair (Aug 12, 2013)

1. First, what type do you think you are? How sure are you?
INFJ. 99th percentile.

2. Visual. How does your brain experience visualization when your eyes are closed? 
Can you think of colors? Yes
Can you picture an apple? Yes
Can you think of what your loved ones look like? Yes
What acquaintances look like? Yes
Do you see background detail clearly if you decide to picture an apple or a person? Yes
Can you picture an alligator ice skating? Yes
Do you see it in cartoon or like a real alligator on a skateboard or can you do both? Both
Can you picture yourself snorkeling with a top hat on? Yes
Does the hat stay on? Yes
Do you need to work to imagine the details of fish and water or does that come very easily? It fills in naturally
How long will this stay in your mind after not actively recalling it anymore? Not long
Can you look all around you and see all the detail, shadows and sunlight? Yes
Can you picture yourself somewhere you’ve never been? Yes
Imagine people clearly who you’ve never seen? Yes
What about in dreams while asleep? Yes. It bothers me when there are people from past dreams. I want to know them and not just remember them from a previous dream.

3. Sound when it is quiet.
Can you hear sounds? Yes
Can you hear a bird singing? Yes
Can you play a song from the radio in your head? Yes
Can you think of what someone from your past’s voice sounds like? Yes
Can you hear exactly some things that they said? It would help if I could remember some exact words. I can hear the voice correctly, though. Laughter too.
Can you imagine a new tune? Yes
Can your brain make a mash-up? Yes. Correcting for timing/key changes
Can you do more advanced things, like does your brain make symphonies? Not the sheet music. But I can hear it.
What about when dreaming while asleep? Normal sounds. I don’t have a soundtrack going in the background or anything.

4. Touch. 
While touching nothing with your hands, can you imagine touching something furry or wet? Yes
Can you imagine/recall certain textures of loved ones and clothing? 
Can you imagine the pain from burning your finger clearly as if it had happened? Not as intensely. Thank goodness.
Can you imagine what a frozen elephant might feel like? Yes
What about when dreaming when asleep? When I’m in the process of falling asleep sometimes my fingers get too big. Weird sensation but it only happens occasionally when I’m on the edge of sleep. 

5. Smell. Can you think of something that smells sweet or sour? Yes
Can you think of vanilla and smell it?
A strawberry? Yes
Are there certain smells you can recall exactly and other’s not? Smells from when I was a toddler I can recall but not what they’re connected to.
What about how hugging your loved ones smells? Yes
What about creating a perfume? Yes
Imagine mixing strawberry and vanilla and that flower you like together? Yes
What about mixing “bad” smells together? Yes
Rotting meat and a latrine with old fish? Yes
What about when you are asleep dreaming? Yes. (But happens rarely)
Real life - Scents have sounds for me. Not every scent, just some of them. It’s kind of one of those ‘it is what it is’ things, unless I accidentally comment on some sound only I’m hearing. I try not to. People don’t react well to it.

6. Taste. 
Can you imagine/taste sweet or salty? Yes
What about bitter end sour? Yes
What about tasting an orange and then a grapefruit? Yes. My mouth is watering.
Do you get the general abstract of it? real thing
Or is it almost like you are actually tasting it? Yes
Can your brain make asparagus with cheddar cheese and rosemary? yes
Can you taste cinnamon rolls with cardamom and cherries? Yes
What about while asleep dreaming? Yes. (But happens rarely)


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## Nannerl (Jan 6, 2021)

Okay, this is an interesting thread because I have hallucinations and more than half have been multimodal (MMHs, which means it involves two or more sensory modalities), but I also have some issues concerning memory. Let's see.


Llyralen said:


> 1. First, what type do you think you are? How sure are you? Give a percentile.


INTP. I don't know, I don't really identify with any other type so 98.9 %


Llyralen said:


> 2. Visual. How does your brain experience visualization when your eyes are closed? Can you think of colors? Can you picture an apple? Can you think of what your loved ones look like? What acquaintances look like? Do you see background detail clearly if you decide to picture an apple or a person? Can you picture an alligator ice skating? Do you see it in cartoon or like a real alligator on a skateboard or can you do both? Can you picture yourself snorkeling with a top hat on? Does the hat stay on? Do you need to work to imagine the details of fish and water or does that come very easily? How long will this stay in your mind after not actively recalling it anymore? Can you look all around you and see all the detail, shadows and sunlight? Can you picture yourself somewhere you’ve never been? Imagine people clearly who you’ve never seen? What about in dreams while asleep?


I can see colours, textures and movement. However, I do have a lot of problem remembering faces and anything that requires spatial memory (locations); applying orientation while imagining roads, cities, etc., is a pain, that is also why I get lost easily. ;-;
It might be related with faces then (different areas of the brain though, so I don't know), since I can remember features, but not symmetrically. I can't build a whole face, not even mine. So sad.

About the alligator and the hat, yes. I think I have to put a bit more effort into picturing shadows (where is the sun coming from and what is the angle, etc.) and hm, the amount of time it stays on my mind depends, some details need to be recalled, yes. My dreams are really vivid.



Llyralen said:


> 3. Sound when it is quiet. Can you hear sounds? Can you hear a bird singing? Can you play a song from the radio in your head? Can you think of what someone from your past’s voice sounds like? Can you hear exactly some things that they said? Can you imagine a new tune? Can your brain make a mash-up? Can you do more advanced things, like does your brain make symphonies? What about when dreaming while asleep?


Yeah, I'm too okay with sounds, specially with voices, lol.
Some questions are about imagining and some other about remembering. Whenever explicit/specific/situational memory takes place (it's different to imagine an apple to the apple I ate two weeks ago), it depends. 


Llyralen said:


> 4. Touch. While touching nothing with your hands, can you imagine touching something furry or wet? Can you imagine/recall certain textures of loved ones and clothing? Can you imagine the pain from burning your finger clearly as if it had happened? Can you imagine what a frozen elephant might feel like? What about when dreaming when asleep?


Yup.


Llyralen said:


> 5. Smell. Can you think of something that smells sweet or sour? Can you think of vanilla and smell it? A strawberry? Are there certain smells you can recall exactly and other’s not? What about how hugging your loved ones smells? What about creating a perfume? Imagine mixing strawberry and vanilla and that flower you like together? What about mixing “bad” smells together? Rotting meat and a latrine with old fish? What about when you are asleep dreaming?


This one is less than the others. Taste is clearer, in my case. Right now I'm not even sure how a strawberry smells like, but I can picture its taste. Perfumes are very complex... hm, I don't think I can imagine them perfectly expect for some basic ones like vanilla or lavender. My hallucinations in this area are pretty basic too: blood, trash, rotten body (animal) and (warm) cats... Don't psychoanalyse me, thanks. I do wish they were more pleasant though, like rain or fresh bread.

With taste I'm pretty good, it has been really useful while cooking and my friends always ask me for advice when choosing ingredients for their food because I can mix them in my head. I'm trying to get better at it.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

@Windblownhair. Also probably one of the most complete sensory recalls/imaginations on here it sounds like.

@Nannerl I hope you read these through because I think your sensory recall/imagination is more normal than you think, probably.


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## Nannerl (Jan 6, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> I hope you read these through because I think your sensory recall/imagination is more normal than you think, probably.


Uhm, I don't think I'm abnormal. Memory and imagination are extremely vague and personalized for everybody, I just wanted to see if there was a relation with my condition and acknowledged the fact that I suck at some points. I already read it through though.


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## QwertyCTRL (Dec 31, 2020)

I've been hacked, and they messed up some of my posts, including this one. sorry. (I got rid of the program the guy/s was/were using, but I can't track down every post that I ever made on the internet.).


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## attic (May 20, 2012)

1. First, what type do you think you are? How sure are you?
infp... most of the time pretty sure, some days not at all, so perhaps 75?

2. Visual. How does your brain experience visualization when your eyes are closed? 
Can you think of colors? Yes, my mind use colour a lot for thinking, as part of the language, there's always colour among my thoughts.
Can you picture an apple? Yes, dfferent kinds, drawn, detail, texture, but not all of it in focus at once, it is like only around...2-3cm at a time can be focused.
Can you think of what your loved ones look like? Yeah... but it is a bit difficult to get faces to show properly, often it is like a wig with blurr, and then I can see one feature at a time, nose, eye, mouth... when I really try I can get a full face often, but not always. It doesn't seem to matter how close they are, it is almost sometimes like people that matter are more difficult, as one have seen them in so many ways, and it is more the feel of the sum that pops up when trying to envision them, compared to say a face you often see in a still picture.
What acquaintances look like? see above
Do you see background detail clearly if you decide to picture an apple or a person? If I want to, when I thought of apples, sometimes there was a hand that held it or I saw the tree it hung from and the leaves and sunshine. Some detail, but not like a photo.
Can you picture an alligator ice skating? Blurry without problem, clearer if making an effort, pictures changing, from a natural looking someone put on skates that lay flat on their sides as they don't fit, to one with specially made in an ice rink, to one getting a hang of it and using it to quickly attack a person, to a drawn. Pictures tend to flash by when I do this more conciously like this, it is difficult to keep one and inspect it for long.
Can you picture yourself snorkeling with a top hat on? Somewhat... a person that is to be me doing that, but I have a bit of a trouble seeing myself, I have a bit unclear image of myself.
Does the hat stay on? yes, I did it like a still picture, if like a movie I could see both, but now I have read the question, if it stays on I imagine it is attached to the cyclops.
Do you need to work to imagine the details of fish and water or does that come very easily? As there was focus on the hat I imagined it from above, so no fish, but water with waves and some waves from swimming, some water lilies, or in another picture tiles in a pool. Those came naturally, not super detailed, but they were there.
How long will this stay in your mind after not actively recalling it anymore? it is gone as soon as I think of something else, now it is there in the background as I still answer the questions, but slightly distorted I think
Can you look all around you and see all the detail, shadows and sunlight? So tried again and more like I was snorkeling and looking around, and with some effort I can, but one detail at a time. I don't snorkel very often, or see movies of how it looks when people do, so it takes a bit of effort to see how the light reflect in the surface and shine through unclear or clear water, what there is to look at depending on where, if there are waves and how it affects light... It feels like there is a picture there behind the curtain of subconscious though, that is clearer, that I can't quite access.
Can you picture yourself somewhere you’ve never been? Yes, but details might be a bit more difficult than with things I am more used to, depending on if it is somewhere with similar parts as places I have seen before or not. But if not superdetailed, I can flash pictures of places I've never been quickly.
Imagine people clearly who you’ve never seen? Don't know for sure, who knows, perhaps my mind uses some person who walked past me on the street when I was 8? but yeah, fairly clearly, it is a bit the opposite of when someone I know well though, it is easy to see a not very detailed full face, but I have to put in an effort with the details one and one.
What about in dreams while asleep? Sometimes, but often dreampeople don't have proper faces, more a hint of this and that, expressions, detail that give character etc.

3. Sound when it is quiet.
Can you hear sounds? Yes
Can you hear a bird singing? Yes, but not well, it is like it easily becomes a distorted version of my voice trying to sound like birds.
Can you play a song from the radio in your head? It is a bit similar there, this was easier, I imagined the song I was listening to before doing this part of the exercise, and it was the singers voice, and some instruments(but the instruments are unclear, I get more a sense of them, I think my mind plays them, but behind the curtain), but a bit like my inner voice also mixed up with it to some extent.
Can you think of what someone from your past’s voice sounds like? hm, somewhat, but not very clearly, and not everyone
Can you hear exactly some things that they said? Some, but with effort.
Can you imagine a new tune? Yeah, in my inner voice. Nothing good though, I am not a musician.
Can your brain make a mash-up? yes, but terrible, haha. I have made nice ones when falling asleep though, hypnagogia, then I seem to have more musical skills than when fully conscious.
Can you do more advanced things, like does your brain make symphonies? simpler ones when falling asleep a few times, perhaps 4 or 5 sounds/instruments/melodies mixing, but otherwise, no.
What about when dreaming while asleep? I am not sure, I don't really recall much sound in dreams, I think it is sparse, sometimes there is simple things like a clock ticking, a drop dripping, a kind of melody, like a dragging mechanical thing...

4. Touch. 
While touching nothing with your hands, can you imagine touching something furry or wet? yeah
Can you imagine/recall certain textures of loved ones and clothing? without trouble
Can you imagine the pain from burning your finger clearly as if it had happened? No, it is a shadow of the real feeling.
Can you imagine what a frozen elephant might feel like? Yeah, but it might not be at all what it really is like.
What about when dreaming when asleep? I don't think I feel pain really, more than the shadow of a feeling, say if getting cut, but I think I can experience what other things feels like, even if not dreaming of toughing them, just knowing, sometimes, or how it feels to manipulate other objects, like cutting through something.

5. Smell. Can you think of something that smells sweet or sour? yeah, with slight trouble perhaps, if I try with something specific it is easy, but sweet and sour as basic smells is a bit difficult, probably because it isn't smells really, but affecting other smells.
Can you think of vanilla and smell it? not physically smell it like a hallucination, no, but imagine it.
A strawberry? yeah, same as above
Are there certain smells you can recall exactly and other’s not? yeah, some are more complex or unusual or with less connected to them, or not important enough
What about how hugging your loved ones smells? A bit difficult, it doesn't always smell the same.
What about creating a perfume? I imagined one with the herbs in my garden, it wasn't a hit, haha, but yeah, seems I do that, interesting, I think about combinations of smells every so often, but more theoretically I think, don't "visualize" like now and actually smell them.
Imagine mixing strawberry and vanilla and that flower you like together? Yes, with some effort... I think it was a bit difficult to get the round of vanilla together with the sharper ones.
What about mixing “bad” smells together? Yes, with a little effort
Rotting meat and a latrine with old fish? eurgh, yeah
What about when you are asleep dreaming? Don't know... I don't think I smell in dreams, perhaps it is there more like a thought at time, knowing it smells, but not really feeling it.

6. Taste. 
Can you imagine/taste sweet or salty? yeah, no problem
What about bitter end sour? Yes, but bitter with effort.
What about tasting an orange and then a grapefruit? yes, it is easier than the tastes without something concrete.
Or is it almost like you are actually tasting it? imagining chewing it and adding texture and so on helps, I think perhaps that belongs more under touch, but it it the full experiece of eating that gives a strong image of the taste.
Can your brain make asparagus with cheddar cheese and rosemary? no, I have no idea how cheddar cheese tastes  but asparagus, butter and rosemary, yeah
Can you taste cinnamon rolls with cardamom and cherries? cherries? is that a thing, but yeah, no problem
What about while asleep dreaming? don't think so, my dreams are likely mostly visual, with feeling atmospheres, empathy, knowings, and some touch feelings and textures etc. 

I think a lot in images and feelings, some texture and room/placement too, and colours... and personalities, I think those also make up what ideasthesia I might have.


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## Windblownhair (Aug 12, 2013)

Llyralen said:


> @Windblownhair. Also probably one of the most complete sensory recalls/imaginations on here it sounds like.


I’d love to know what factors actually had an impact…certain learning projects train in certain ‘libraries’ (music theory=relative pitch, aroma-chemical kits=fragrance notes, cooking=flavor profiles)…hobbies like reading and writing are almost pure synthesis…curious how they all factor in!


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

QwertyCTRL. said:


> I'm an INFP with certain aspects of an INTP.
> I can do all of these things. Can anybody else imagine someone saying something that they haven't said, but you can still imagine their voice, facial expression, etc.?


Yes I can. I would think anyone who does impressions would have to use this skill as part of what they do. If you take one sentence and ask me if I can imagine how a bunch of different people in my life or celebrities that I hear often would say it, I can. I can do the same with singers if it is a line of a song.

Would you mind going through the questions and answering in more detail? I would say it’s fairly rare to be able to do the more advanced smell ones, for instance. Also there are comparison questions about what happens when it comes to dreams with senses.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Windblownhair said:


> I’d love to know what factors actually had an impact…certain learning projects train in certain ‘libraries’ (music theory=relative pitch, aroma-chemical kits=fragrance notes, cooking=flavor profiles)…hobbies like reading and writing are almost pure synthesis…curious how they all factor in!


I really wonder too!
I think I’ve answered my own questions somewhat indirectly, but only sound for me is as good as real life or really better because of all the things I can hear or create that is not in real life and the ability to make it louder or more beautiful— the ability I have to tune something in my brain or play with the tempo or the swing or the tember. I know I love music and music can take my brain by force even though it must be created by my brain at the same time. Yet I’m always wanting more. Bring it on, brain and don’t let up! I can also control it down, but I can’t make my brain produce a symphony unless my brain feels like it— yet anyway. 

I only rarely feel the same about visuals and when it happens (my brain taking over, showing me art) then it seems disturbing to me. Yet growing up people told me my best talent was drawing. I’m not nearly as passionate about it, I’m afraid. And then there are so many artists with Aphantasia it seems like. So I can’t conclude that just because I love music that that is why it is by far my best imaginative sense. Also, I am not an auditory learner. Not at all. I’m very much a visual learner.

Just to round this all out, my imagined sense of taste is far less than the real experience. I can easily imagine the scent of an orange in abstract, but is it as strong or better than a real orange? No. It’s more like an abstract of the scent of the orange. It’s like a memory imprint of the juicy citrus sweet orange. I can also think if the imprint of opening that orange in my office right now and knowing the smell would fill my whole office like it did last time—- but is it like smelling the actual orange? Not for me. Not at all. Not anything like my mind does for sound. 
I guess I better write out my thoughts for each of my own questions later.

Your thoughts about reading and writing are interesting. I’d Like to add questions about that here and I think it would be particularly interesting for Aphantasia and other complete deficits in imaginary senses.

I want to know for someone with aphantasiq what reading a book is like, what memory is like and and for someone with no inner auditory what memory and how feelings manifest. We know they do… but someone trying to explain it would be so interesting.


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## Windblownhair (Aug 12, 2013)

Llyralen said:


> I really wonder too!
> I think I’ve answered my own questions somewhat indirectly, but only sound for me is as good as real life or really better because of all the things I can hear or create that is not in real life and the ability to make it louder or more beautiful— the ability I have to tune something in my brain or play with the tempo or the swing or the tember. I know I love music and music can take my brain by force even though it must be created by my brain at the same time. Yet I’m always wanting more. Bring it on, brain and don’t let up! I can also control it down, but I can’t make my brain produce a symphony unless my brain feels like it— yet anyway.


Right! So it becomes this funny chicken and egg thing - are you drawn to music because your auditory imagination is so vivid, or is it so vivid because you’re drawn to music?

Again the mental ‘library’ would grow as a person either learns/intuits different styles…if I tell someone to imagine the same tune, but swing…now jazz…now French jazz…now Dixieland…a person’s abilities might not be limited by lack of imagination, but simply by lack of experience. But does that equate to as vivid an imagination, just with limited range? Or does more knowledge bring more depth and detail? 




Llyralen said:


> Your thoughts about reading and writing are interesting. I’d Like to add questions about that here and I think it would be particularly interesting for Aphantasia and other complete deficits in imaginary senses.
> 
> I want to know for someone with aphantasiq what reading a book is like, what memory is like and and for someone with no inner auditory what memory and how feelings manifest. We know they do… but someone trying to explain it would be so interesting.


Yes! In regards to reading, it’s hard to imagine what happens when you remove the element of ‘words gone, movie playing in my head.’ It’s hard enough to turn off when I want to examine stylistically how an author accomplished something. Not ever having it in the first place must make the act of reading so different! I’d love to hear about that.

I feel like writing encourages the making of those sense decisions without explicitly doing so. Like yes, there are some explicit choices, like how much to describe character or setting. But choosing point of view is really about placing the camera. Tightening up beats at the end of chapters is playing the last chord in the key the chapter is written in. The endings of books are frequently written to get that operatic, soaring, heart-beating-in-your chest combination, (music/proprioception/temperature) all at once. And there are some senses that we didn’t talk about but are all in the realm of sensing your own body - balance, temperature, internal organs, feeling sick, etc. - that are all beats for writing. 

I’m interested how that process feels for you?


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

How does reading and writing work for everyone? When you slip into imagination and you forget that there are words in the page like @Windblownhair described?

I was trying to figure this out yesterday, reading something I had written. I was aware of the words and also typos or sentences I wanted to condense and then it dropped away, and I was really glad to find that the piece of writing moved me to the same feelings J had wanted to convey and felt when I was writing it. Of course I can’t be sure that this would happen to someone else, but I remember when I read the piece to my husband he had said “I’m right there. I’m right with you. I’m transported.” I sure hope so! It was the piece from my Norse Greenland story. The place and time and the people are so special to me and Im so glad that I wrote something That for me was able to capture the ambiance and feelings that I have for it. I watched so many old documentaries and clips of the Inuit and of Faroese and Icelanders and I’ve read Viking sagas for over 10 years to get that feeling and I feel that it’s right— although. I really feel like I have to try to get to Greenland.

Has anyone been to Greenland? Anyone live there?

But getting back to the question. I wonder if I was able to write all of this and populate what it all looks like because I have seen all of that footage? Can someone else get that from my writing? I don’t know… but I do know that the feelings of the main character in that piece and her views of those around her were crystal clear in the writing and so it was easy tofeel through her and I don’t think it took too much description and in a way she doesn’t need too much description because she is very archetypal and very archetypal from a Viking point of view— the maiden who saves the warrior who he spiritually marries after he has past the test of overcoming his fear and vices and is his accompaniment as “hamingya” through his life as a spiritual guardian. That Is not what she does, and she is flesh and bone and the story is about her as a real person, but that is kind of what she looks like and what her name implies and it is implied that this is how she is seen by her group. So I think because she is archetypal— at least to a Viking collective conscience— I think it also produces a strong ambiance, maybe just for me who has read so many sagas? But then there are also the Inuit people who she has a lot of contact with who to me really breath life into the story. I feel like learning from them has brought a great deal of meaning and joy to me and I think they impart that to my story as well.

I think visually I mostly get the abstract— the feel of what the author is saying, and maybe them picking up a line of fish or weaving coarse cloth or using a spear can trigger a grounding and tangible quality, but kind of mixed in with this heady ambiance that is abstract. I think it is usually like this when I read other books, but I think it’s true that archetypal feelings can come across very powerfully in the abstract and kind of blow you over. For this main character it is her red hair blowing in the wind, her name which means sun goddess, the falcons she trains, the hound at her side, the gray flat rock land she stands on, the 500 year history of her people asking with its strict and completely infiltrated Christian tradition, the ice in the ocean, and the joy and purpose and fluidity of meaning she learns to feel with the Inuit as she is emotionally/ psychologically forced to turn away from her own people. These are all big archetypal shapes, but it’s the details that hold up all those archetypes I think anyway for Ne supposed by Si. I’m going to have to build that strong Christian picture and I’m going to have to show how it all completely failed her and then something I was not expecting to find out…. I thought it was climate change that was the reason for the collapse of this society but it was actually isolation from even more things (politics and the plague) and the big surprise is that what really probably ended them is English pirate ships taking whole towns of slaves as they were in that era with Iceland and other places. Okay…. So exciting! I hope it is as good for others as it is for me.

When I’m imagining some of this then it rolls like a movie, and I wish it were more like that when writing but it only sometimes gets that good of a flow. The last half of my short story had a flow like that. With more practice maybe it will become more and more like that.

I know this came off like a pitch for a book I have only written a few chapters of… sorry.

@Windblownhair. You?


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## Windblownhair (Aug 12, 2013)

I don’t have the ‘words fall away’ when I’m reading my own writing. Unfortunately I haven’t figured out how to turn off the editorial voice. 

When writing, it happens when I’m in the zone, but something like struggling for a specific word can pull me right back out of it. In general, it happens more easily during the first draft, especially when I’m following a high word count schedule. By the second draft, I’m back in the editorial mindset.


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## MsMojiMoe (Apr 7, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> @MsMojiMoe
> 
> would you please answer these questions? Thank you!


I haven’t forgot just been busy and getting my mind organized 😊


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

MsMojiMoe said:


> I haven’t forgot just been busy and getting my mind organized 😊


Yes, please! Because I very much want to hear about your experience!


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

@Llyralen 


> One study that I couldn’t get the full text for mentioned creativity in music in the mind together with psychopath tendencies.


Interesting, what did it suggest? That psychopaths are more likely to be creative with music?
By the way, due to reduced connectivity to amygdala, they don't have the same access to some of the emotions, which are used for memory purposes as well.
This means that they have to encode their memories differently than normal people, without relying on the emotional response.
Another case of coping due to unavailability of some resource 



> few other studies showed that music in the mind is usually not unpleasant unless you have OCD. So there might be a lot of nuance.


Music that emerges in me is never unpleasant, didn't know that it can be as such for some people (unless they just prefer it like that)



> What would be your hunches on the consequences of developed imagined senses be?


I think it is a generic expansion of consciousness of sorts. 
More developed imagined senses imply enriched psychic material to work with. More material => more ways to represent objects and build associations among them. (memory, creative problem-solving)
We can't consciously work with something that we can't cognize. 



> Did you watch the videos on aphantasia? It is interesting what it affects and what it doesn’t seem to affect.


Yeah, it is curious indeed. Not in all cases curable though, unfortunately.



> Also a study came out about music in the mind and increased incidental correlation with memories.


Fits with what I would expect, yes, I think anything cognizable can be used in association potentially, incidental or not.



> Okay hen you pair all of this with MBTI it becomes even more fascinating, I’d say.


Everything mentioned until this moment is applicable for any type.
MBTI, as it is just very rough dichotomies, can't provide sufficient level of depth to connect what we are talking about to personalities.
Cognitive functions can't either, as they are too shallow / more concerned about what people "do", rather than how they do it.
Only "Psychological Types" I think can be meaningfully applied as it attempts to explain psyche.


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