# Spades questionnaire for a (neurotic) female. Help a girl out?



## pandamiga (Aug 11, 2012)

bearotter said:


> I think there are a lot of reasons for flaking. Commitments usually involve others, and if one is a very strong introvert, that can do it by itself, namely we may not want to exit our zones. A priori, this need not involve any cognitive function in a subtle way, as far as I can tell.
> 
> To rule out ISFJ, figure out your dominant and inferior! I am a fairly developed Si user, and recall and connect various memories together as part of my thought process, but at core, I am
> philosophical and have my own twist on how everything fits together, and has a deeper meaning that is somehow central. My *first* inclination is to try to fit my abstract conception of things with whatever it is I am analyzing.
> ...


Yeah, I see what you're saying. This is why I am confused.

I've already tried the method of coming up with my inferior and I got Se as my inferior (someone else helped me to conclude that). I don't know what you mean by extreme pressure, but for me I know I used to do training for EMT and I know that whenever we did drills I was very clumsy with tools and at the same time I would still be very detached from the experience. I would be a lot slower with my movement because I am uncertain of what I am doing. For Ne inferior, I can jump to conclusions if I see something. One time I "thought" two of my friends weren't getting along super well, then I'll look for details to come up with a reason I thought this (basically, I get hunches and look for evidence to back it up)... I don't think this was a stressful situation, but this would be the only way for me to believe I use Ne as inferior. I know an ISTJ and I don't really make impulsive decisions the way you're describing it. And even when they do extrapolate like that, they fall back onto their Si to make sure nothing goes wrong.

Also, I don't know why you think combining different individual memories into one is an Si thing to do. 

Even though I relate more the Se inferior I think I have to stick with being an ISFJ.

Edit:: The thing is that I don't totally see what you're implying when you say that Ni can manifest in different ways, that is why I am confused right now.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

> is this referring to having an experience that challenges my beliefs? As in, causes me to reconsider? Hrm. Oops. If that's the case: it would give me something major to think about.


I think this can often be an INFP trait. I think something really distinguishing me as a feeling type from the INFP thought processes I have observed is that I don't really have beliefs. I have a soul, and I love to care for others, but nobody has ever made me reconsider my beliefs, and I do not feel they make me who I am. There are conjectures I made, which were flawed, and ultimately revised, but that is different.

In your animal example, I for instance find myself thinking that cruelty is a general thing hard to impossible to eradicate, particularly cruelty due to ignorance. It may spur me to consider what the root of all lack of compassion is. Where you would intervene, I consider negligence a philosophical problem, and if it cannot be solved in my mind, I would just not feelpassionate about acting.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Well, what I meant by Ni manifesting in different ways is that it's a tricky thing to really pin down for someone like me (that is, someone outside you). It strikes me as a very, very internal function.

Here is some stuff about Ni:


> They enjoy tinkering with ideas, perspectives, theories, visions, stories, symbols, and metaphors.




And the quote that resonates absolutely most with me, regarding so-called psychic features of INJs (which, by the way, I don't buy to really be psychic at all..though that's the whole point of the quote):



> What seems to be occurring is that many INJs have a highly sensitive inferior function, Extraverted Sensation (Se), which gathers copious amounts of sensory information from the outside world, including subtleties that other personality types tend to miss. Their Ni then subconsciously processes this data in order to make sense of it, like assembling pieces of a puzzle. Once finished, Ni generates an impression that seems to come out of “nowhere.”




I think I have a well enough developed Ti that I can frequently explain my simpler insights arrived at in a non-systematic way in a much more systematic fashion, and almost all of my insights if I try, but with most of my academic work (which is often where I tax myself most), I find this description far too accurate. The vivid recollection of things is slightly unusual for someone whose academic and overall interests tend to be theory-oriented, although generally the way I use it is to use my storehouse to try to create a new idea or perspective. I tend to be bad at picking up details in a systematic way, but once I pick them up, they're incredibly vivid, more so than most I know. I have to be in a really particular state of mind to start gathering the details though (and this generally constitutes my weakness).

I don't quite mean turning various memories into one -- I can see why my wording may have been confusing. I meant that I spend a lot of time relating various memories together, and have a very vivid picture of them typically. This is the sort of thing about Si that I can relate to: 



> Introverted Sensing often involves storing data and information, then comparing and contrasting the current situation with similar ones.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

> Even though I relate more the Se inferior I think I have to stick with being an ISFJ.




Of course, it depends a lot on your other functions. If you find ISFJ works the best, that very well could be -- you have access to a lot more about yourself than I do. (In fact, I'm just trying to bounce ideas off you, given I didn't have access to the information that expert used to type you INFJ!)


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## pandamiga (Aug 11, 2012)

bearotter said:


> Of course, it depends a lot on your other functions. If you find ISFJ works the best, that very well could be -- you have access to a lot more about yourself than I do. (In fact, I'm just trying to bounce ideas off you, given I didn't have access to the information that expert used to type you INFJ!)[/COLOR]


Actually, I've always found the INFJ works better for me. I just feel bad saying that it does, so I try to see what other people think. Of course I don't accept just any possibility or reasoning, so I try to integrate other people's ideas with my own and if I can't I eliminate it.



bearotter said:


> Well, what I meant by Ni manifesting in different ways is that it's a tricky thing to really pin down for someone like me (that is, someone outside you). It strikes me as a very, very internal function.
> 
> Here is some stuff about Ni:
> 
> ...


I also relate to that first quote. I actually think I do it on forums (without realizing it). I get the feeling that when some people say something completely innocent I take it the wrong way because of just two simple words, and then I'll piece together the other information into that "perception". I take in all of the details and fit it inside of my hunch. I thought this was an Ne thing to do though.

Edit:: I forgot to add that the only place I feel I differ with you is your vivid memory. I really don't have vivid memory. I can blend my memories together and they become muddled. So I have a tough time remembering things from childhood or even when I tell a story from my past I interject what I want to think as truth even though I have a feeling it isn't. I can give you an example: I "remember" my sisters playing behind my favorite coach with a spider in my younger years even though I don't think it's really possible (even my sisters says this isn't true). I know I used to sit on coaches a lot so I truly believe this to be true I believe that Si can do that too (but I could be wrong).


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

I'd think Ne is more about forming the various hunches (that is, seeing all the ways it can branch off). Fitting it into your own personal hunch seems like a separate thing. It's often the case that Ni users get really, really convinced of a falsehood, by using nonlinear processing to deduce that the root of the various possibilities is something or the other. What you're doing needn't be Ni though, as Ni often keeps guessing. It could just be you checking your thoughts for consistency. It could be a lot of things. You know best about how and why that part of you happens


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## pandamiga (Aug 11, 2012)

bearotter said:


> I'd think Ne is more about forming the various hunches (that is, seeing all the ways it can branch off). Fitting it into your own personal hunch seems like a separate thing. It's often the case that Ni users get really, really convinced of a falsehood, by using nonlinear processing to deduce that the root of the various possibilities is something or the other. What you're doing needn't be Ni though, as Ni often keeps guessing. It could just be you checking your thoughts for consistency. It could be a lot of things. You know best about how and why that part of you happens


Yeah... I guess I am just finding it extremely hard reasoning out INFJ for me. =/ But thanks for your input! I'll do my best to keep in mind what you've been saying as I continue learning. ^_^


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Is it that you don't fully understand why you're INFJ, or is it that you doubt some traits, or that you haven't really ruled out all the other types? 

I think everyone uses some of everything, and the whole idea is, as I'm sure you know, to get at what your personality in terms of cognitive preference ultimately is.


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## katiesusu (Aug 12, 2012)

Wow! There's been a bunch of interesting activity in this thread since last I checked. Lots to think about! I wanted to respond to a couple of the concepts bearotter and pandamiga were talking about...

You guys talked about learning as it relates to type. For me, I am always trying to learn more about various things-- trying to understand them fully, I guess, or find some special fact that will help me feel like I've found a deeper connection, if that makes any sense. I'm not necessarily talking about people; it can be anything, even a simple object. For example, this summer I've been devoted to learning everything I can about astrology and have focused on the influence of the moon in particular. Although I'm not convinced I even believe in the influence of astrology, I find it so fascinating I'll devote hours to reading about it, drawing diagrams to help me understand the concepts, etc. Another obsession has been tomatoes. Not only do I want to eat them and learn to grow them, I want to read all about them and like... reaffirm my interest or something? In school I always did well regardless of the class, but certain topics would pique my interest and I'd commit myself to learning everything I could about, I dunno, medieval torture devices or salvador dali or whatever. This would go beyond my work in school, and again I would explore and learn by reading and either writing or drawing/crafting things related to the topic of my obsession. That said, I tend to jump from fixation to fixation. I retain the knowledge from these things I've learned, but I don't stick with anything for very long I guess. I get excited about learning new things. As far as learning skills like carpentry, knitting or tube-feeding baby animals (for example): I need to ask a lot of questions before I feel ready to try it myself. I like to observe someone doing the task and try to understand why they are doing each thing I see them do. If I don't have that option, I'll read how-to instructions until I feel like I know what's up. Then, once I'm comfortable, I'll do it myself. I don't like people watching me, although I know that's not practical.  I believe all this is related to being a perfectionist: something I'm not proud of. I like to do things right the first time around, which is why I try to understand exactly what to do before I try it. I easily get discouraged by putting work into something, only to have the end product come out less than impressive. I think this is related to my pattern of hopping from interest to interest. Not sure what bearing it has on my personality type.

As far as planning and decision-making, as you might have guessed I struggle with decisions. Anything from choosing what to order at dinner to deciding between two job offers takes me a while, and I'll obsessively think about the different options until I feel like I have to settle on one. I'm actively trying to approach this differently these days, since I have found that time and again it turns out the best decision would have been my initial impulse. I believe I do have good hunches, but that over time I've conditioned myself to ignore them due to anxiety or something. So lately, I've been trying to just make decisions quickly when possible and it has turned out well. Same with commiting to events or anything... my tendency is to avoid making commitments and to sometimes flake out, like you all said! I guess I feel like I just don't know what's gonna be going on in the future, what might change between now and then, so I don't always feel comfortable making commitments. Like I said before, I'm also very shy so I think I avoid commiting to social plans as a way to give myself an "out". I know I'll be nervous, so I try to avoid it. BUT I know this is selfish, and lately I've been forcing myself to attend things like baby showers, get-togethers, etc because I want to be a better friend. Sometimes it's awkward but afterwards I'm glad I went.

As for planning, I like to plan. Maybe not time-related planning, because I feel like I have no idea what the future holds, but planning for other things. Like, mentally planning a vacation. Or planning out a big project. Planning out the way I want to decorate my house, or the way I might hypothetically approach changing my career, step by step. Planning out stories or art projects! I really enjoy thinking about these things and maybe drawing diagrams. However, I often don't follow through with the plans unless someone else gets on board. I prefer thinking about these things. Sometimes, when I do make the plans come to life, I will think about them for months or even years before I start acting.

Hmm, other stuff... @bearotter, I admit your comment about my animal "values" example made me feel confused. The reason is, I relate to everything you said-- yet I don't take back what I said in my questionnaire, either. I have similiar philosophical thoughts about the nature of compassion and cruelty. But I can't bear to see an animal suffer. It's a living being just like us, and whether or not cruelty can be eradicated (it can't), I know I can help that individual being in that moment. That's why I act, in that case. I often relate more to animals than to other people, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms. And I can relate to the idea of not having beliefs, though I've always seen it as "not having faith"? I have strong political beliefs but I don't have spiritual beliefs, I suppose. Like I said, I like to see all sides of an idea and I drive my partner crazy by playing devil's advocate whenever we watch the news-- for example, even when a horrible crime is committed I can empathize with the offender or I at least wonder what it was that happened in his life, that made him this way.

Unrelated note: I strongly relate to the note about Ni: "They enjoy tinkering with ideas, perspectives, theories, visions, stories, symbols, and metaphors". But I tested only average on this function. It's strange to me.

I think my major hang-up with the MBTI at this point is, the tests stump me. I feel as if I can't accurately answer the questions about myself, which I realize sounds crazy. But the thing is, I don't understand what behavior to focus on. I act very different when I'm alone versus when I'm with my "people" versus when I'm with casual friends versus when I'm in public with strangers. Let alone how I act at work. I often feel like I've been conditioned (or I have conditioned myself) to act very differently from what is natural to me. So when I take these tests, I often feel like I can completely relate to either option depending on the situation. For example, a question like "I am a quiet person". If I'm answering for most of the time: hell yes I am. I'm quiet in public, quiet around strangers and coworkers and casual friends. But when I'm with my family or best friends, which is when I really feel like myself, I am extremely talkative. :3 As you can see on here, I'm also talkative in writing. So, what? Should I answer all the questions from the perspective of how I act when I am with my family and feeling "like myself", even though my shyness in public is a _major _part of my life? Maybe the tests aren't for me. I guess I had just hoped that, if I could crack my personality type, maybe I'd take another step towards closing that gap between public and private behavior-- so I can feel like "myself" all the time. Another hitch is that I've always been an excellent test-taker. I inherently understand how they work. All kinds. So although I try not to, perhaps I overthink and analyze the test as I am taking it. Maybe continuing to read about the cog. functions is the better way to go.

Damn. Another looooong post. :crazy: You guys, thanks again for your input earlier. I like this forum.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

> And I can relate to the idea of not having beliefs, though I've always seen it as "not having faith"? I have strong political beliefs but I don't have spiritual beliefs, I suppose




Now part of what I said was just for good discussion and fun, not necessarily conclusive about your type  just making that clear, if that was at all a source of confusion.

I don't have strong political beliefs, either myself. I guess this is possibly just a feature of me, not necessarily at all to do with my type. 

This isn't necessarily Fi in your response, but one thing that I find Fi-strong people do is being unable to get over values of theirs, no matter what they learn, unless what they learn basically turns everything they know on its head. They'll be bothered, and question their values.

The major thing that distinguishes Fi from Fe in my mind is that Fe is definitely focused on actual relationships. Whereas Fi may feel strongly that things should be a certain way, regardless. The Fi individual might help people because they strongly believe it is their calling, whereas there are various Fe traits (that I have, while being the last to think of, say, spending a lot of my time fighting for a cause) in me ever since I was very young, like being really interested in learning about people around me (despite being timid to take the step), being a little extra self-revealing so I'll get to know the other person a lot more, treating a stranger or a teacher like a friend, etc...in the total absence of almost any cause that I'd actually fight for. I think the Fi vs. Fe confusion arises mainly because Fi's also have strong feeling preference, and thus often can understand emotions, which are a key to reading people, a trait that Fe's are supposed to exhibit greatly. 




> I feel as if I can't accurately answer the questions about myself, which I realize sounds crazy




The reasons/context behind an answer are important! This is one reason there's more to figuring out our types than just taking the test. If I went by test results, I'd be INTP most of the time.




> BUT I know this is selfish, and lately I've been forcing myself to attend things like baby showers, get-togethers, etc because I want to be a better friend.




Very, very INFP people I know tend to do things like this, although the motivation is crucial to consider: often, I find they do it because being a better friend is important to them, and surprisingly, although I'm naturally drawn to people, I do things like this a lot less. The INFPs I know might do it even if they don't connect that great with the friend, or feel they're making a huge difference by being a good friend, because it's just something they feel they should do. 




> quiet in public, quiet around strangers and coworkers and casual friends. But when I'm with my family or best friends, which is when I really feel like myself, I am extremely talkative




Pretty common for introverts.

A very, very crucial thing is to distinguish your behaviors from cognitive preferences. That's something that was crucial for me, because my behaviors are so individualistic that it may seem like I have strong values or that I have a "calling" for myself, when in reality I don't consider that to be true, it's more that I'm very careful to do what I consider to make most sense for me, and most strategic. And that I'm a passionate person.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

> Unrelated note: I strongly relate to the note about Ni: "They enjoy tinkering with ideas, perspectives, theories, visions, stories, symbols, and metaphors". But I tested only average on this function. It's strange to me.




There are of course a lot of aspects to Ni. This is just one of them, but also it's quite possible that the questions on the test just didn't bring out your Ni. 

I've seen Ni as being described as wanting to discover the root of things, whereas Ne looking to all the possibilities. This is why an Ni-dominant individual will spend a lot of time either acting upon that intuition or confirming it, as opposed to the somewhat more "free" method of deducing from all the perceived possibilities what is most likely. The Ni's creative ability lies in taking in various disparate things and somehow discovering some central way of looking at them, thus often producing new that is paradoxical. The WEAKNESS of the Ni is that it is itself not a thinking function, and quite subconscious, so when unsupported with a strong J function, it can lead to strongly believing in something that isn't very true (that is, incorrect "hunches").

It might help if you describe why you consider your Ni to be high, given that your score was certainly not low, just not high.


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## pandamiga (Aug 11, 2012)

katiesusu said:


> Wow! There's been a bunch of interesting activity in this thread since last I checked. Lots to think about! I wanted to respond to a couple of the concepts bearotter and pandamiga were talking about...




Haha, yeah sorry about that xD I just like to analyze a lot (we all do). I am glad our conversation helped you to think about things, though! ^_^ Edit:: and @bearotter really seems to pick up on things I miss so we're both benefitting!



> You guys talked about learning as it relates to type. For me, I am always trying to learn more about various things-- trying to understand them fully, I guess, or find some special fact that will help me feel like I've found a deeper connection, if that makes any sense. I'm not necessarily talking about people; it can be anything, even a simple object. For example, this summer I've been devoted to learning everything I can about astrology and have focused on the influence of the moon in particular. Although I'm not convinced I even believe in the influence of astrology, I find it so fascinating I'll devote hours to reading about it, drawing diagrams to help me understand the concepts, etc. Another obsession has been tomatoes. Not only do I want to eat them and learn to grow them, I want to read all about them and like... reaffirm my interest or something? In school I always did well regardless of the class, but certain topics would pique my interest and I'd commit myself to learning everything I could about, I dunno, medieval torture devices or salvador dali or whatever. This would go beyond my work in school, and again I would explore and learn by reading and either writing or drawing/crafting things related to the topic of my obsession. That said, I tend to jump from fixation to fixation. I retain the knowledge from these things I've learned, but I don't stick with anything for very long I guess. I get excited about learning new things. As far as learning skills like carpentry, knitting or tube-feeding baby animals (for example): I need to ask a lot of questions before I feel ready to try it myself. I like to observe someone doing the task and try to understand why they are doing each thing I see them do. If I don't have that option, I'll read how-to instructions until I feel like I know what's up. Then, once I'm comfortable, I'll do it myself. I don't like people watching me, although I know that's not practical.  I believe all this is related to being a perfectionist: something I'm not proud of. I like to do things right the first time around, which is why I try to understand exactly what to do before I try it. I easily get discouraged by putting work into something, only to have the end product come out less than impressive. I think this is related to my pattern of hopping from interest to interest. Not sure what bearing it has on my personality type.


That is really interesting. I don't see this being an Si thing (it could be since you like depth); it could be an Ni or Ne thing to do. It seems very random, though. Can you make the connection of why you like all of those things? For example, I am like you too. I have interests ranging from Asian Culture/History, technology, physics, different forms of music and sports. But they all fall under one umbrella in my mind. I don't like these things just because; they serve a meaning, a singular idea that explains how the world works. It's almost like my religion. Also, I don't learn the specifics about anything (unfortunately... I wish I was more like you), I just latch onto concepts about them and when I do I forget them. I am not sure if anyone would call this Si (someone want to help me with that concept??)

Oh, and knitting xD I have a tendency to act like I am interested in something just because a friend is interested in it (just so we can be better friends). This happened with me when I tried knitting. I only practiced when I was with her, but I would go home and chuck my equipment on the floor. I am jealous that you can learn the way you do. I kind of just like to figure it out. For example, if I want to draw something I don't feel comfortable with step by step instructions; it can confuse me.



> As far as planning and decision-making, as you might have guessed I struggle with decisions. Anything from choosing what to order at dinner to deciding between two job offers takes me a while, and I'll obsessively think about the different options until I feel like I have to settle on one. I'm actively trying to approach this differently these days, since I have found that time and again it turns out the best decision would have been my initial impulse. I believe I do have good hunches, but that over time I've conditioned myself to ignore them due to anxiety or something. So lately, I've been trying to just make decisions quickly when possible and it has turned out well. Same with commiting to events or anything... my tendency is to avoid making commitments and to sometimes flake out, like you all said! I guess I feel like I just don't know what's gonna be going on in the future, what might change between now and then, so I don't always feel comfortable making commitments. Like I said before, I'm also very shy so I think I avoid commiting to social plans as a way to give myself an "out". I know I'll be nervous, so I try to avoid it. BUT I know this is selfish, and lately I've been forcing myself to attend things like baby showers, get-togethers, etc because I want to be a better friend. Sometimes it's awkward but afterwards I'm glad I went.


I see. For me, I don't like making committments not because I don't know will go on in the future, but because I am simply not interested in doing it. Sometimes I think about homework getting in the way, but for most things I am shy too so if I tell a stranger that I would like to go to a party with them (or even church) I won't go. Even if it is for work I try my very best to avoid making comittments since I enjoy free time a lot more. It doesn't always work when I realize that I being lazy so I'll try a few things. I think this relates to using Fe for me. ...I think that may be how it is for you.

And for planning. That is really interesting. I don't plan things time-wise too "what should I do today?" but I do like to make general plans for writing stories. it's hard for me because I am terrible with details, but I always have this overarching idea of what should happen. I usually never right my stories because the simple of idea of it is enough for me. Poetry is easier for me to write since it captures generalities. So, it looks like you might not use Te ...maybe this is Ti tied in with Fe? 



> Like I said, I like to see all sides of an idea and I drive my partner crazy by playing devil's advocate whenever we watch the news-- for example, even when a horrible crime is committed I can empathize with the offender or I at least wonder what it was that happened in his life, that made him this way.


Yeah, that is how I am especially when I think about being like Hitler xDD Still, this is hard to determine which dominant function we're using. Could still be Fe and/or Ni.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

katiesusu said:


> _For me, I am always trying to learn more about various things-- trying to understand them fully, I guess, or find some special fact that will help me feel like I've found a deeper connection, if that makes any sense.
> 
> _


Hmmm. Aside from the deeper connection part, the intense desire to learn a lot of things is a feature of a lot of different guys. I think it could easily be a feature of an ISTP for instance, which is quite far from what you see yourself as. Seeking deeper connections could still be something such a type would do. Trying to synthesize your own meaning from a lot of different things can definitely be an Ni thing to do, though. 



pandamiga said:


> I don't like these things just because; they serve a meaning, a singular idea that explains how the world works. It's almost like my religion.




This is what I resonate a lot with. Perhaps it's not surprising you were typed as INFJ. I have an ISFJ friend who definitely is not like this, for what it's worth. I connect with her on the basis of the fact that we both like discussing people. Discovering the deeper meaning behind things is the primary motivation for almost everything I do, and something which at times hampers my ability to just experience life.




> @_bearotter__ really seems to pick up on things I miss so we're both benefitting!_


_
_
I'm glad to help  the discussion is helping me too.

Often, I understand these things better when I'm forced to synthesize something.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

> Also, I don't learn the specifics about anything (unfortunately... I wish I was more like you), I just latch onto concepts about them and when I do I forget them. I am not sure if anyone would call this Si (someone want to help me with that concept??)




I think Si is usually somewhat drawn to the specifics at least, but mainly I think it's the constant tendency to relate how things are with how things have been, and data stored in the back of your mind. In this sense, Si can be a huge advantage to learning things. There is more of a tendency to synthesize your own meaning when using Ni. Being interested in just the general idea is definitely not Si as per my understanding at least.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

> Oh, and knitting xD I have a tendency to act like I am interested in something just because a friend is interested in it (just so we can be better friends).




Now this is very Fe, as per my understanding. You're doing it just so you can get drawn closer to them. That's different from, say, doing something for a friend that won't even necessarily draw you closer together, but because you feel it violates what you believe in not to (this latter is Fi). 

I'm just thinking out loud.


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## katiesusu (Aug 12, 2012)

pandamiga said:


> That is really interesting. I don't see this being an Si thing (it could be since you like depth); it could be an Ni or Ne thing to do. It seems very random, though. Can you make the connection of why you like all of those things? For example, I am like you too. I have interests ranging from Asian Culture/History, technology, physics, different forms of music and sports. But they all fall under one umbrella in my mind. I don't like these things just because; they serve a meaning, a singular idea that explains how the world works. It's almost like my religion.


I saw this post just before leaving for the grocery store, and was thinking about it as I shopped. It's weird, but I don't know how to explain a connection. I mean, yes, I'm interested in the deeper meaning of things-- and especially secret, intimate or forgotten details, or unexpected connections between seemingly disparate ideas-- but I don't study them with one end goal in mind, I don't think. Maybe it's just so much a part of my worldview that I take it for granted: the idea that there is a deeper story behind even the simplest things, and there's beauty in that story which is significant in and of itself. I admit that sometimes, in the middle of my immersion in some topic or another, I'll have a moment of doubt: I'll think to myself, "wait... why am I even studying this so intensely? What's the point? Am I wasting my time?" and it can make me feel sad. Ugh, I don't even know if that has any bearing on this whole conversation. >.<

I have to say, guys, this thread has been eye-opening! I say that because, prior to signing up for this forum, I felt like I had relatively solid knowledge of myself. Now I feel that there's a lot to learn. I also am beginning to see how there's a difference between behavior and cognitive functions. It's all very interesting, for sure.


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## pandamiga (Aug 11, 2012)

bearotter said:


> Hmmm. Aside from the deeper connection part, the intense desire to learn a lot of things is a feature of a lot of different guys. I think it could easily be a feature of an ISTP for instance, which is quite far from what you see yourself as. Seeking deeper connections could still be something such a type would do. Trying to synthesize your own meaning from a lot of different things can definitely be an Ni thing to do, though.
> 
> 
> I'm glad to help  the discussion is helping me too.
> ...


ISTP is also an interesting guess. I can see how you came to that conclusion; she could integrate that Se-Ni that they have to look at the details first and then if she is working at it for a bit longer she can see the deeper meaning behind the details. It also makes sense because at her age the tertiary function would work to be more visible. By the way, it's cool that you're thinking out loud ^_^

Yeah, I do see myself as an INFJ a lot, mainly because that is how I even choose my friends ... it makes me feel bad. =/ Also, my childhood experiences are sort of INFJ-like (knowing when I random person is fishy and finding out the facts as I get to know them, knowing that someone has a beautiful spark to them and finding out that I was right, always seeing signs that made me believe that the earth would be swallowed by the sun -_-")

Haha, and yeah I know what that feels like. I feel like that is why I did so bad in AP english because I would see a few details and try to make sense of a whole novel based on that ...needless to say people could always point out my fallacies. xDD

@katiesusu :


> I saw this post just before leaving for the grocery store, and was thinking about it as I shopped. It's weird, but I don't know how to explain a connection. I mean, yes, I'm interested in the deeper meaning of things-- and especially secret, intimate or forgotten details, or unexpected connections between seemingly disparate ideas-- but I don't study them with one end goal in mind, I don't think. Maybe it's just so much a part of my worldview that I take it for granted: the idea that there is a deeper story behind even the simplest things, and there's beauty in that story which is significant in and of itself. I admit that sometimes, in the middle of my immersion in some topic or another, I'll have a moment of doubt: I'll think to myself, "wait... why am I even studying this so intensely? What's the point? Am I wasting my time?" and it can make me feel sad. Ugh, I don't even know if that has any bearing on this whole conversation. >.<


Don't worry! You can say anything you think you need to say. I am posting because I'd like to help you sort out your thoughts ^_^ 
I find it interesting that sometimes you second guess yourself. I've never had that happen. It could very well be battle between Se and Ni (you see the details first, but also find joy in seeing the deeper meaning). Hhhmmm ...maybe this indicative of having Ti as a higher order function. You like to observe and learn all of the steps. Still, I cannot fully reason out Si.

Yeah, it is interesting katiesusu! It's cool to see the connection between what is hidden and what's visible. Also, another beautiful thing about typing is that you never have to throw away "old information" you can synthesize them together to create who you are in anyway you want! I hope you continue to have fun as you learn


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@pandamiga, I still do not think she is ISTP or any such thing, but was just giving an example of some that I know like that for thought experiment's sake. I think we just need to get to know her more before making a clear decision, perhaps  



> Haha, and yeah I know what that feels like. I feel like that is why I did so bad in AP english because I would see a few details and try to make sense of a whole novel based on that ...needless to say people could always point out my fallacies. xDD..


Funnily, this is how I got A's in AP English without reading the books carefully LOL. I would construct a good argument by reading a small subset of the book, and ironically, this made my essay appear more uniquely specialized! My essay style tends to be very NiTi, namely with clear internal consistency, and wildly tying back to a certain philosophical idea, but not structured so there actually seems to be a point being established. Maybe my teachers were excessively openminded!


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## pandamiga (Aug 11, 2012)

bearotter said:


> @_pandamiga_, I still do not think she is ISTP or any such thing, but was just giving an example of some that I know like that for thought experiment's sake. I think we just need to get to know her more before making a clear decision, perhaps


Very true. Jumpin' to conclusions ain't no good xDD (Sorry, katiesusu!) She's very much an enigma for me, so I'll be careful.





> Funnily, this is how I got A's in AP English without reading the books carefully LOL. I would construct a good argument by reading a small subset of the book, and ironically, this made my essay appear more uniquely specialized! My essay style tends to be very NiTi, namely with clear internal consistency, and wildly tying back to a certain philosophical idea, but not structured so there actually seems to be a point being established. Maybe my teachers were excessively openminded!


Oh my goodness, I am so jealous of you! :angry: You must have had very open minded teachers. I only suffered through this in high school, but in college this seems to work xD My favorite high school teacher, for some reason, kept me in AP English even though I made Cs/Bs ...at times it looked like I inspired her whenever I spoke one-on-one with her. ...Meh. xD I'm trying to get better with details, though.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

I personally attribute it to my language sounding like the literary critics in English essays (pompous!)

They were not actually all that openminded  but I think subjectivity sometimes worked in favor.


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## katiesusu (Aug 12, 2012)

pandamiga said:


> Very true. Jumpin' to conclusions ain't no good xDD (Sorry, katiesusu!) She's very much an enigma for me, so I'll be careful.



Ha ha! No, not at all! Don't worry, I'm an enigma to myself as well. 

I also like you-all's discussion of English essay tactics! AP English Lit was a favorite high school class of mine, and I majored in English come college. I think my essays could generally be kinda far-fetched in terms of topic or meaning, but I had a knack for getting my professors on-board because I was always really into whatever idea I had at the time-- which was usually some hidden symbolism, metaphor or theme in the novel-- and I'd get very in-depth in an attempt to prove my point. I remember writing an essay on "The Stranger" in high school which was basically based around one line in the whole book, and I milked that line for all it was worth. I loved that book, and I was so excited about the possiblity that I had seen something new in a book so old (of course, looking back now I know I was naive). The teacher liked it, although I don't think he necessarily agreed with my analysis. The funny thing is... in college, I got so tired of analysis somewhere along the line. I started feeling like, why can't we just take things for face value?? Why are all these people so pretentious and why are they overanalyzing every beautiful, simple thing in this world? It started to really upset me, and I thought about it constantly.

I didn't end up doing as well in college as I had in high school. ^^;


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## katiesusu (Aug 12, 2012)

Just wanted to note here that, as I'm studying the cognitive functions more, I'm very interested in the idea of "grip experiences" or inferior function traps. It's been really difficult for me to relate to any of the 16 types fully, and I kept thinking that perhaps my social anxiety had distorted my thinking to a point that I couldn't accurately make out my cognitive preferences. However, it seems like that is just one version of the sort of stress that would cause someone to latch on to their inferior function. I believe that I may be INFP or ISFP, and I recently read an article about IFP types getting trapped in the use of Te and ignoring their stronger functions: they "may becomes so focused on being responsible (Te) that they fail to develop or regularly employ their Ne creativity. They may flit from here to there, accomplishing one task after another, and priding themselves in how responsible they are. And because responsibility is culturally endorsed as a positive virtue, they often fail to realize that their obsession with responsibility is actually unhealthy and, dare I say, “sinful.” INFPs who are in the grip lose their open-mindedness (Ne) and compassion (Fi), expecting others to fall in line and be as responsible as they are (Te)."

I feel like I can relate to this. In the last few years I went from living at home with my parents as I attended college, to moving across the country by myself and attempting to get my career going in a field totally unrelated to my major, where I've dealt with a lot of rejection. I struggled with the end of one long-term relationship (I was the dump-ee and did not deal well) and the growth of a new one. So I guess my point is, during my childhood and even into college I had the luxury (?) of just "being myself" while my mother took care of the practical details of life. I have struggled to adapt to actual adult life and haven't always dealt well with rejection and uncertainty. Not proud of this, just being honest! I just wonder if these experiences have caused me to latch onto my deficient Te and neglect the other functions. I am definitely way more organized and logical, and perhaps judgemental, than I used to be. It's something I struggle with a LOT: this sense that somehow my behavior doesn't fit who I believe myself to be inside. And I think that's been a stumbling block with figuring out this MBTI business.

But yeah. Perhaps INFP, or ISFP. I relate strongly to most (maybe all) of the INFP descriptions, but the thing lacking is a focus on details and appreciation for sensory/aesthetic things. I am definitely the kind of person who notices and loves little details and who gets pleasure and energy from, for instance, taking a walk outside or looking at artwork or interacting with animals. So I'm not sure what to think about that, and it's why I wonder about ISFP.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

I'm really interested in inferior functions, too. It's what recently helped me really identify my own type. (I had been identifying as INFJ until I realized that my Se is too strong to be my inferior and my Fe is too shaky not to be. Then reading an article about inferior Fe was like reading an autobiography.)

I have an INFP friend who has been trying for years to live in Te mode. She's in overdrive and I'm waiting for her to burn out, but it seems that maybe she's taking it down a notch, making peace with the idea that her time and energy are limited resources, so that's hopeful. I've heard, though, that this is sort of typical of young adult INFPs (in western culture, anyway): until they realize that they can't save the world by keeping up a frenetic work pace, that their real talent is in their sensitivity and creativity, they tend to push themselves hard to keep up with the ambitious pace and productivity that is more natural to Te-doms. Or something like that. In her worst moments, my friend becomes atypically bossy and controlling and stresses about getting things organized and done exactly right and exactly on time. (Like when we were moving out of our apartment.) She's pulled more all-nighters than anyone I know, trying to meet deadlines that, really, were probably more flexible than she realized if she didn't put such rigid expectations on herself in an effort to be extremely efficient and reliable.

I noticed in another thread that you said you related strongly to the way another user filled out her questionnaire, and she was most likely an ISFJ. (She sounded like one to me.) Then I reread your questionnaire considering that as a possibility. Have you looked into that one? What do you think of it? One major difference between INFP and ISFJ is that ISFJs have sort of a grounded practicality about them, whereas INFPs are definitely dreamers and have the tendency to sort of mentally drift away. Is there one of those that you could say is definitely more you? ISFJs are not as imaginative and creative as INFPs. Your description of yourself as a combination of childlike curiosity/wonder and serious intellectual intensity makes me think of INFP, but I can see it in some ISFJs, too (like my father). My INFP friend works hard because she believes deeply in the causes she works for and Hard Work is a value she believes in. Her grandparents were working-class immigrants and in her young adulthood she has sort of immortalized some of the values of her heritage, although in idealized form, like an INFP, and didn't just accept them all along like a stronger-Si child typically would have. Like my ISFJ brother. He works hard because a) it's in his nature to work hard when he has a job to do, and b) it's going to enable him to have a stable and comfortable life and provide for his family someday. 

Your case is tricky because of the social anxiety, which may be a natural tendency of your personality type (whatever it is) or may be something rooted in something else. I pick up on a lot of Fe in you, but it's hard to tell if it's your natural function or if it's anxiety interfering in your natural state of being. (I have it, too, sometimes worse than others, and I know it's mostly thanks to my inferior Fe along with some other factors.) Do you know exactly what the source of your anxiety is? I mean, do you know if it's rooted in, say, an extremely unstable upbringing? Or if it hit you out of nowhere at a certain age or in a certain situation? Or if it's just sort of the way you are?

It's possible, but I sort of doubt that you're an ISFP. Your Se score is fairly low while your Si is much higher, and you don't sound Se/Ni to me, you sound Ne/Si. I would also consider the possibility of ENFP, since your Ne sounds high. Do you think people drain you because being around them triggers your anxiety, or because you're just naturally more oriented toward your inner world than the outer world? (Note: in xNFPs even without anxiety this can be very hard to tell.) 

You may have already seen it already, but in case not, here's the inferior-function article for ISFJ. I'd be interested to hear if you feel you relate to it or not so much. And ENFP. Why not?

http://personalitycafe.com/isfj-articles/78380-recognizing-inferior-function-isfj.html

http://personalitycafe.com/enfp-articles/76803-recognizing-inferior-function-enfps.html

Also, if you think you're an INFP, don't let your interest in details and aesthetics deter you from it. My friend is very much attuned to those things, but in case I mistake her for an ISFP, her Ne is very high (bouncing from thought-to-thought, quickly connecting ideas, going off on tangents). The ISFPs I know are not at all so mentally all over the place nor so intellectually curious. They are also not very verbose. They are very in tune with their physical surroundings (the feel of a forest, the mood of the light on a particular day). INFP can be aware of those things, too, but then their imaginations take off with them, whereas an ISFP just wants to Be with them, not think about them and start making associations.


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## katiesusu (Aug 12, 2012)

Thank you _so _much for your thoughtful response! I've been reading the articles you linked to, and giving it all some thought. I related to a lot of the ISFJ inferior function article (especially the catastrophizing and impulsiveness sections and the part about typical provocations or triggers re: extraverted intuition), but also to INFP. I think the qualities of being a dreamer, intellectually curious and "mentally all over the place" resonate so much with me that it is hard to discount INFP. Maybe, like your friend, I am just an INFP who is attuned to the details and also prone to think about them and start making associations.



ltldslwmn said:


> I have an INFP friend who has been trying for years to live in Te mode. She's in overdrive and I'm waiting for her to burn out, but it seems that maybe she's taking it down a notch, making peace with the idea that her time and energy are limited resources, so that's hopeful. I've heard, though, that this is sort of typical of young adult INFPs (in western culture, anyway): until they realize that they can't save the world by keeping up a frenetic work pace, that their real talent is in their sensitivity and creativity, they tend to push themselves hard to keep up with the ambitious pace and productivity that is more natural to Te-doms. Or something like that. In her worst moments, my friend becomes atypically bossy and controlling and stresses about getting things organized and done exactly right and exactly on time. (Like when we were moving out of our apartment.) She's pulled more all-nighters than anyone I know, trying to meet deadlines that, really, were probably more flexible than she realized if she didn't put such rigid expectations on herself in an effort to be extremely efficient and reliable.


I totally relate to this! Everything about it.



> Do you know exactly what the source of your anxiety is? I mean, do you know if it's rooted in, say, an extremely unstable upbringing? Or if it hit you out of nowhere at a certain age or in a certain situation? Or if it's just sort of the way you are?


Oh man. I don't know the source of my anxiety, although from a young age I was reserved. Small things like, even as a baby my mom says I didn't like to maintain eye contact. Throughout my life I have had the ability and tendency to completly "zone out", as if retreating mentally into my own world-- signified to my family members by a distant look in my eyes. And as I got older, I literally didn't like to leave my own yard to play with the other kids in the neighborhood. If they were at my house, it was fine. And when my cousins came over, I was ecstatic and gregarious, happy to play with them for hours. I was an only child and grew up in the suburbs with my single working mother and my grandmother, so I was used to a quiet and stable environment at home. That said, I was in day care all the time so it's not like I wasn't exposed to other kids! I think I am just a hypersensitive person. For example, I have a long-standing memory of being bullied on the schoolbus. I HATED the bus and would sprint home after getting off, after school, which is funny to remember! But anyway, I was recently telling my partner about these experiences when it occurred to me that I _wasn't _being bullied. I had just felt disturbed or hurt because all the other kids on the bus were loud and rowdy, and I guess I felt threatened. For all these years I had been sure they disliked me and were targeting me when in reality, they probably didn't even notice me! I was a paranoid little kid. Similarly, I often reacted to comments I didn't understand by assuming the person had some malicious intent. So I became more and more reserved; although I really liked and admired other people and wished to have friends, I mostly couldn't connect with them and worried they automatically thought poorly of me. I sometimes even imagined that other kids could read my mind! But on the outside, I wouldn't express any of this-- other than to be quiet and shy. As I got older, I think it began to interfere more with my self-expression and growth. I continue to have issues with assuming others think poorly of me, or that they want to hurt me. I have a few intimate friends who I value very much and feel completely comfortable with, and when I'm at work I am able to interact well with other people on a polite level, since I am adept at hiding the irrational fears I have inside. I can socialize casually, but it stresses me out emotionally if I feel like someone is trying to figure me out. I feel like this is getting super long so I won't go on with more examples. I guess I would say this is just kind of the way I am, and that it bothers me more as I get older. I feel like it is a major barrier between me and the world (and even keeps me from accessing my real self). And no, I haven't seen a counselor about this although I've considered it. :/ I realize this all probably makes me sound kind of crazy, but "irl" I don't think you would ever know I am like this. When I've confided these fears to my close friends, they've been surprised and confused to hear I have these types of feelings/beliefs-- and sometimes they don't even believe me. They say it sounds like my perception of myself is very distorted from how I appear to others.



> Do you think people drain you because being around them triggers your anxiety, or because you're just naturally more oriented toward your inner world than the outer world? (Note: in xNFPs even without anxiety this can be very hard to tell.)


I think I am naturally oriented to my inner world. But I also think the anxiety plays a large role. Like, I'm more comfortable in my inner world so of course I prefer that. Lately I've tried hard to be more open to conversations with friendly stangers, and when the conversation goes well I am so excited afterwards. When I do find someone I "click" with, I like doing everything together and I can chat for hours and hours. But I realize many introverts are this way. I am oriented to the outer world in the sense of being quite in-tune with/sensitive to my environment (including the people in it) but I am definitely one of those stereotypical introverts who needs "time alone to recharge after a social situation".


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

No, you don't sound really weird. We all sound really weird when we start talking about how we work on the inside. Don't take my word for it, read Dostoevsky, and he's considered by some of the greatest psychologists who ever lived to be the greatest psychologist who ever lived.  Besides, this post revealed a lot of helpful information. I hope some others will weigh in on it.

Based on what you said I feel more strongly about INFP. It sounds like your sensitivity may be the most basic thing about you, which would indicate dominant Fi. And from what you said, it sounds like you are indeed a true introvert. As far as introverts go, INFPs (as well as IxFJs) are very sensitive to the people around them while being primarily inner-focused. The fact that you like new experiences would oppose the possibility of ISFJ, who are Si-doms and do not like new things, or at least adjust to them at a glacial pace. (I'm laughing to myself thinking about my ISFJ brother.)

If you are an Fi-dom, I think maybe you're not as much of a basketcase as you think you are.  Fi sensitivity is a blessing as well as a curse, it's just hardest when you're young. In my own opinion, it's probably harder for IxFPs to adjust to the outside world as they grow into adulthood than for any other type, but once they get the hang of it and find their niche they thrive. And the blessings of Fi outweigh the curse. I'd recommend spending time in the INFP forum and learning how other INFPs cope with situations that stress out their sensitivity. One thing that's typical of INFP, and true for my friend, is that unexpected meetings with people they know are really stressful. My friend likes to prepare for social encounters by sort of brainstorming what topics she can discuss with the people she's going to see there. And I've read that's a typical thing for INFPs to do. If you are an INFP, maybe it could help you. In my case it doesn't because brainstorming itself is exhausting for me. That's Ne and I don't have it.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

katiesusu said:


> They say it sounds like my perception of myself is very distorted from how I appear to others.


Often, an anxious individual will be so much less so when talking to someone, because talking/interacting forces her to stop focusing inward, where a lot of the turmoil is. I think some individuals are just more anxious than others. A lot of things don't come out at the first impression (at the first impression, I do not strike almost anyone as interested in being empathetic).



ltldslwmn said:


> don't let your interest in details and aesthetics deter you from it.




Good advice! I think my fairly evident use of Si (it is just incredibly common for me to draw upon various concrete memories vividly, as part of my process) sometimes had me question what my real preference is, but somehow what's really going on inside me is, for better or worse, always motivated by discovering some sort of deeper meaning, reconciling how various ideas all play together and have a certain meaning to them ... 




> who are Si-doms and do not like new things




Another very Si feature in me: I hate new things, unless they're new ideas, mainly because I can't get used to things like exploring a new location, working with anything new that is real-life and hands-on, technical, etc. 

Emphasis here: do be very, very careful about deciding what your true preferences are! I have to admit, as time goes on, I see more and more why LeaT originally suspected ISTJ for me (it was puzzling me back then, because as much as personality tests can lie, my N scores have always been exceptionally high compared to S). In writing particularly, until I warm up a while, my Fe is especially repressed, and one of the quickest things to observe about me is this particular Si feature. 




> _until they realize that they can't save the world by keeping up a frenetic work pace, that their real talent is in their sensitivity and creativity, they tend to push themselves hard to keep up with the ambitious pace and productivity that is more natural to Te-doms.
> _




This is so, so, so scarily true for INFP. I cannot emphasize this enough.




Loving the additional analysis.


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