# Dating Women Creates Misogynists?



## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

*OK guys, to all my fans and detractors I'm letting you guys know that I'm not going to be making anymore facetious threads in S and R anymore.

**I won't lie, it's been really fun being an asshole, but my conscience is bothering me (ie. I've engaged in shaming the female demographic, and there are people taking my quasi-misogynistic perspective on women and dating seriously) and so it's time to stop. 
*


In this thread (and probably my last) I'll try to present the serious points that I was implicitly making for you to ponder or dismiss;



1) *There are inequities within modern hetero dating, where generally men are at a disadvantage.*

Men are (online and IRL) overwhelmingly the primary initiators of dating and marriage proposals, and as a consequence women are the primary selectors. This logistically puts women in an advantageous position. 

In a nutshell the way things are; If the average woman never initiated a dating proposal for the rest of her life she would still have available potential mates. Whereas if the average man never initiated a dating proposal for the rest of their lives, they'd probably die alone and virgins.

_(And yet many women wonder why men can get 'creepy' persistent with dating requests) 

_2) *Men discussing or complaining about the inequities and double standards of hetero dating are ignored or insulted.*

A common retort from women when men complain is something along the lines of;

"Stop the pathetic whining, it's just because you are a basement dweller who can't get a woman."

(The lack of empathy is understandable, the average woman couldn't have the experience to relate.)

To women who make those kind of insults please remember that dating, sex and relationships aren't trivial subjects. Practically everyone looks for sex and/or companionship, and when people have a happy companionship they live longer and report a greater satisfaction with life than single people. As we all know new human beings are produced as a result of couplings. And dating experiences and relationships can leave people traumatized or with pleasant memories for the rest of their lives, and they can have a profound on traits and behavior. (Ask anyone who has gone through a really bad breakup, and is either traumatized by it or found a way to be resilient and learn from it.)

So let's not pretend that dating and relationships are a trivial subject, with no great personal or social implications.

3) *The inequities of dating contribute to resentment and misogyny*

Most women simply reply with "You shouldn't be bitter/resentful" when men bring up the inequities of dating and how it's made them bitter/resentful. I think they probably don't understand that the social environment of modern dating contributes towards male bitterness and/or misogynistic sentiments. I'm not saying it's not the man's responsibility to process those sentiments, but I'm am saying that the social environment facilitates those sentiments - unfortunately commonly, if temporarily.

In a book called Self-Made man by Norah Vincent she goes undercover for a year disguised as a man. I'll present some excerpts from her reflection on time courting and dating as a man. She eloquently describes how the dynamics of hetero dating contribute to bitterness, resentment and misogyny amongst men;



> _"...They tended to see a wolf in every man they met, and so they made every man they met into a wolf - even when that man was a woman."
> 
> Not surprisingly really. The women who were hostile to me made me mad, and that made me want to be hostile to them. I can't imagine men in the same positions not reacting the same way. And so the self perpetuating cycle of unkindness and discontent would go on and on, feeding on itself. These women were mostly hostile int he first place because they felt that men's bad behavior had made them so, and the men they met behaved badly because hostility breeds contempt.
> 
> ...


IMO and IME the only group of women who can empathize from experience about the resentment and bitterness that the challenges of dating can create in men are culturally unattractive (ie. ugly) women. The have to exert as much effort, and have to deal with as much indifference and hostility as the average man.



_*
Please share your thoughts, experiences, perspective and possible solutions.

*_(Please - for the fucking love of christ! - don't let this thread become about promoting or debating feminist theory.)


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

*To my single Broskis...*


I've enjoyed researching into the topic of dating, and 2 books that I like if you want advise about getting pussy or a relationship are;


Relationship;
Changing your game by Christie Hartman


Pussy;
Rules of the game by Neil Strauss 

They give advise on; types of women to avoid, challenges that come with dating certain demographics of women, how to create interesting conversation, how to choke a bitch, etc.


Good luck.


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## Empress Appleia Cattius XII (Dec 22, 2010)

I think in regards to heterosexual dating, there's an element of 'the grass is greener' syndrome from both sexes.
I think a lot of these sort of threads reflect that.


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## Arclight (Feb 10, 2010)

I have no doubt this world of male sexual frustration exists .. I mean I hear enough guys complaining about it.. The books and websites dedicated to it are numerous.
BUT .. I have never lived in it. It seems alien to me.
AM I a stud or rich and powerful? No..
Just a working class dude with average looks. 
All I ever had to do was exist .. So it's true that inequities exist in the dating world.. Some people have it.. Some don't. If you don't have it.. I think he worst thing you can do is become an angry cynical bitch about it.. That tactic has a really piss poor track record of attracting the ladies. 
How about you get over your sense of entitlement, stop blaming "those bitches" for not liking you and become someone more likable. After all, the only thing you have any control over in this life is yourself.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Arclight said:


> How about you get over your sense of entitlement, stop blaming "those bitches" for not liking you and become someone more likable. After all, the only thing you have any control over in this life is yourself.


You guys crack me up. You guys psychologically profile people based on posts in a forum lol.


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

Yeah I can see why men would begin to hate women based on how the typical routine goes. But that is an unhealthy response to deal with reality. Gandhi said that anger poisons yourself more than anything. So does hating women. Hating women makes your life _worse. _Women don't owe you anything either so if they reject you it's no problem. Deal with it. Don't hate them for it.


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## Arclight (Feb 10, 2010)

strangestdude said:


> You guys crack me up. You guys psychologically profile people based on posts in a forum lol.


 Or you have some sort of complex? If I was talking directly to you I would have quoted you. I am just not that passive aggressive that I would speak broadly while trying veil my ad hominen against _you_.
My post was a general statement about male sexual frustration due to a common misdirected sense of self entitlement.

_Now_ We can start building a profile since you took a general statement rather to heart and have since expressed a persecution complex about the subject.
You poor poor man.. Life is just so unfair..


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Stelliferous said:


> So does hating women. Hating women makes your life _worse. _Women don't owe you anything either so if they reject you it's no problem. Deal with it. Don't hate them for it.


I'm curious if you read the excerpts from the book I quoted, showing how the social environment of hetero dating contributes to resentment?

I was hoping for a more nuanced discussion.

See this is why I made my threads provocative, they get better responses.


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## associative (Jul 1, 2013)

strangestdude said:


> You guys crack me up. You guys psychologically profile people based on posts in a forum lol.


lol. Armchair psychology is the whole point of this site.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

l will peacefully accept your offer to cease and desist :kitteh:


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

I couldn't resist...



Arclight said:


> Or you have some sort of complex?


I take back my comment about psychologically profiling based on posts :happy:.



> If I was talking directly to you I would have quoted you. *I am just not that passive aggressive.*


And then you wrote...



> _Now_ We can start building a profile since you took a general statement rather to heart and have since expressed a persecution complex about the subject.
> You poor poor man.. Life is just so unfair..


PerC people sometimes.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

Oh Internet, why are you so delicious?

How do you not tire of talking about the same topic over, and over, and over again?


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

associative said:


> lol. Armchair psychology is the whole point of this site.


eh. Should be more self directed IMO. That doesn't mean it's unusual but l'd also call someone out on it where it's inappropriately (and annoyingly) practiced.

Personality Cafe: The Place To Discover _Yourself_


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

In the 50s men had all the power and women hated men for it. Now the tables have turned and men feel the same way that 50s women did. Wiser viewers criticize the culture which cultivates such insufferable individuals, but it can often be hard to separate the person from the culture. 

I really can't understand how a person can fail to sympathize with men after reading this, but I'm sure several will.

_"Dating women as a man was a lesson in female power, and it made me, of all things, into a momentary misogynist, which, I suppose was the best indicator that my experiment had worked. I saw my own sex from the other side, and I disliked women irrationally for a while because of it. I disliked their superiority, their accusatory smile, their entitlement to choose or dash me with a fingertip, and execution so lazy, so effortless, it made the defeats and even the successes unbearably humiliating. Typical male power feels by comparison like a blunt instrument, it's salvos and field strategies laughably remedial next to the damage a woman can do with a single cutting word: no."

*"Dating women was the hardest thing I had to do as Ned, even when the women liked me and I liked them. I have never felt more vulnerable to total strangers, never more socially defenseless than in my clanking suit of borrowed armor."*_


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## Arclight (Feb 10, 2010)

strangestdude said:


> I couldn't resist...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Uh Huh.. It's always everyone else.. You are just such a perfect specimen of raw human intelligence that the only possible explanation is everyone else is a moron.. Enjoy your single lifestyle.. I am sure you have a lot of experience and will continue to excel at it.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

android654 said:


> Oh Internet, why are you so delicious?
> 
> How do you not tire of talking about the same topic over, and over, and over again?


You don't talk about topics repeatedly in you life? Most people I know have a few topics that they have a persistent interest in.

Ok, judging by the first page, and your appearance, this thread is gonna get closed down.

Might as well just engage in countering trolls...


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## dvnj22 (Apr 24, 2013)

I think the more you learn about the more you dislike them or respect them. Because in my case you learn they're just like men, and the main reason your attracted to them is because you thought they were not like men. Also you can't say anything against women, women can voice their angry and frustrations about men all day. But as soon as you talk about women - we don't owe you anything, you should have done this or that etc. 

Now making the leap from being angry to a misogynist is different, I am personally angry with both genders, but single out one is to big a step. Like others have mentioned though being angry and hate doesn't help. However when you can't voice your frustrations and anger that makes it worse, that's my biggest problem. I hear women say all sorts off crap about men and there is nothing wrong with that. A lot should be mad, and I should be able to do the same. The more you hold your anger in, the more it grows. It's acceptable for a women to voice her frustrations for men your automatically labeled a misogynist.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Arclight said:


> Uh Huh.. It's always everyone else.. You are just such a perfect specimen of raw human intelligence that only the explanation is that everyone else is a moron


No, just you. You contradicted yourself within the space of a few lines.


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

The sad thing is that I always hoped that this type of stuff (the dating games/angst) would decrease once people get older & hopefully be more mature and happier with themselves and their lives. I guess I am wrong - if you go and look at the Baby Boomers forum there is a discussion about dating right now. The very same issues (!!!) are discussed there. Pretty sad... apparently most of us never grow up.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

strangestdude said:


> You don't talk about topics repeatedly in you life? Most people I know have a few topics that they have a persistent interest in.


Yeah, but it's *all the time* with you. Why not, I don't know, get a hobby, talk about sports or some shit. Whenever I see your username its a rephrasing of the same topic. Makes you look a little obsessive. Just a little.



> Ok, judging by the first page, and your appearance, this thread is gonna get closed down.


You think about me that much?











> Might as well just engage in countering trolls...


But who's gonna counter you?


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## Arclight (Feb 10, 2010)

strangestdude said:


> No, just you. You contradicted yourself within the space of a few lines.


 Not really.. You seek only data that confirms your perceptions.. Anything that doesn't will seem contradictory in that respect. 
Anyway I am not interested in playing e-tag with you for the rest of the day ( I have no desire to feed your bloated ego) I have said what I have to say on the subject. 
Good day to you.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

Swede said:


> The sad thing is that I always hoped that this type of stuff (the dating games/angst) would decrease once people get older & hopefully be more mature and happier with themselves and their lives. I guess I am wrong - if you go and look at the Baby Boomers forum there is a discussion about dating right now. The very same issues (!!!) are discussed there. Pretty sad... apparently most of us never grow up.


People, as a unit, change slowly, too slowly for any of us see an ill created and destroyed in the span of our lives. You can at least poke fun at it.


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## dvnj22 (Apr 24, 2013)

Swede said:


> The sad thing is that I always hoped that this type of stuff (the dating games/angst) would decrease once people get older & hopefully be more mature and happier with themselves and their lives. I guess I am wrong - if you go and look at the Baby Boomers forum there is a discussion about dating right now. The very same issues (!!!) are discussed there. Pretty sad... apparently most of us never grow up.


Dating is one of the worst things I have ever seen. So fake and petty. Observing alone will make you misogynist let alone a misanthrope.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

@strangestdude my heart bleeds for you. Women have it so easy in strangestdudeland. I should move there.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

android654 said:


> Yeah, but it's *all the time* with you. Why not, I don't know, get a hobby, talk about sports or some shit. Whenever I see your username its a rephrasing of the same topic. Makes you look a little obsessive. Just a little.


IRL I talk to people about different subjects, on the net I tend to talk about dating and relationships because the topic encompasses alot of subjects.

Do you guys serious profile people based on forum posts?

I honestly don't take forums that seriously. I write with passion or aggression, it's just my writing style. I'm not cursing at the screen while I write, I assure you. Often I'm playing music and singing along.



> But who's gonna counter you?


Who watches the watchers?


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

strangestdude said:


> IRL I talk to people about different subjects, on the net I tend to talk about dating and relationships because the topic encompasses alot of subjects.
> 
> Do you guys serious profile people based on forum posts?


It's all the information we have to go on when deciphering who you are. What do you think?



> I honestly don't take forums that seriously. I write with passion or aggression, it's just my writing style. I'm not cursing at the screen while I write, I assure you. Often I'm playing music and singing along.


I curse all the fucking time, but it's got nothing to do with what I'm writing and especially not you. You, I find you... entertaining.



> Who watches the watchers?


Ozymandias, obviously.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Arclight said:


> Not really.. You seek only data that confirms your perceptions.. Anything that doesn't will seem contradictory in that respect.
> Anyway I am not interested in playing e-tag with you for the rest of the day ( I have no desire to feed your bloated ego) I have said what I have to say on the subject.
> Good day to you.


More psychological profiling and passive aggression.

Good day to you my friend.


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

android654 said:


> People, as a unit, change slowly, too slowly for any of us see an ill created and destroyed in the span of our lives. You can at least poke fun at it.


I feel more like crying about it tbh... It just makes me depressed that there are so many lonely people in the world.

Maybe I'm just mistaken about us never getting anywhere in life - I guess in reality the individual's development curve is more organic than linear. Maybe all the divorced people are just back in the frustrated realm, but hopefully they were happy in their marriages for a while - or at least when they were dating, before the wedding... 
I can see how people can become bitter when they first go through the disappointment and hardships of a divorce and then get disappointed after they realize that the 'freedom to play' really isn't as fantastic as they imagined it would be, but then again, there are probably a lot of bitter people in relationships as well.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

android654 said:


> It's all the information we have to go on when deciphering who you are. What do you think?


Ok, I've using net chatrooms and forums since I was 13. I've learned not to take what people say too seriously, and that the tone of text communication can be easily be misinterpreted. People lie *alot*, and create characters through text chat. Check out the movie catfish.



> I curse all the fucking time, but it's got nothing to do with what I'm writing and especially not you.


Ok???


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Neverontime said:


> @_strangestdude_ my heart bleeds for you. Women have it so easy in strangestdudeland. I should move there.


I like a woman who can stand up to me. Move to my area and lets date.


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

strangestdude said:


> Ok, I've using net chatrooms and forums since I was 13. I've learned not to take what people say too seriously, and that the tone of text communication can be easily be misinterpreted. People lie *alot*, and create characters through text chat.


So, how many characters do you have? Is anyone of them a feminist!? That would be hilarious - I'd like to meet that person!


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

android654 said:


> People, as a unit, change slowly, too slowly for any of us see an ill created and destroyed in the span of our lives.


Civil rights movement?

The women's rights movement?

My grandparents were alive to see them, and still are.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Swede said:


> So, how many characters do you have? Is anyone of them a feminist!?


I wouldn't even joke about being a feminist.


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

strangestdude said:


> I wouldn't even joke about being a feminist.


Now I'm disappointed... :sad:


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

strangestdude said:


> Civil rights movement?
> 
> The women's rights movement?
> 
> My grandparents were alive to see them, and still are.


Your grandparents were around to witness slavery, emancipation and the passage of civil rights? What, are you 1/3 Redwood?



Swede said:


> I feel more like crying about it tbh... It just makes me depressed that there are so many lonely people in the world.
> 
> Maybe I'm just mistaken about us never getting anywhere in life - I guess in reality the individual's development curve is more organic than linear. Maybe all the divorced people are just back in the frustrated realm, but hopefully they were happy in their marriages for a while - or at least when they were dating, before the wedding...
> I can see how people can become bitter when they first go through the disappointment and hardships of a divorce and then get disappointed after they realize that the 'freedom to play' really isn't as fantastic as they imagined it would be, but then again, there are probably a lot of bitter people in relationships as well.


One thing I've noticed when looking at older couples and comparing them to young ones is that few know what/who they want, their fantasies never manifest in reality, and no matter how much someone gives them they eventually want more. People by and large are miserable, but they don't stop in their search for a remedy that they never find and eventually must concede does not exist, but at that time it's too late to make amends.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

android654 said:


> Your grandparents were around to witness slavery, emancipation and the passage of civil rights? What, are you 1/3 Redwood?


I'm from the UK, my grandparents were from the Caribbean and emigrated.

OK... I'll be more specific... My grandparents are in their late 70's.

They witnessed the adoption and implementation of equal rights and equal opportunities in their country. When they came to the UK they were treated like shit and discriminated against legally.

I've spoke to them about life, and they've told me how our generation of black people in the UK have no idea how different things were when they first arrived. And my grandmother says most of us are ungrateful because we grew up with it.

My point is it's possible to witness huge change in your lifetime. And there are people alive (specifically black people and women) who will tell you what life was like 50 years ago.



> One thing I've noticed when looking at older couples and comparing them to young ones is that few know what/who they want, their fantasies never manifest in reality, and no matter how much someone gives them they eventually want more.


Yes that was the point of my thread realistic romance and Lori Gottileb's book which you denounced vehemently :tongue:.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Yay!!! Now I will be able to flood the Sex and Relationship forum with my man-hating feminist agenda without opposition!

Really, you seem like you could be good at introspection. You've posted some pretty nice stuff about anxiety and meditation which attests to this.

But have you considered looking at your anima complex? I can empathize with you in some ways, not because I am "ugly" and undesirable and so similar to how you say men are, but because I had *issues* with the opposite gender. This is because I had negative past experiences, and limited positive ones, and they colored my view of the opposite gender.

But I think that since you are going to turn a new leaf or whatever, that maybe you should look at introspecting yourself in order to come to peace with women instead of focusing on reading books about "choking a bitch" or getting pussy.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

strangestdude said:


> I'm from the UK.
> 
> OK... I'll be more specific... My grandparents are in their late 70's.
> 
> ...


Ah, but you're talking about two different peoples reacting to the same element. That's different since 'global culture' is a thing that exists mostly in the internet and through the transfer of media and fads. The internet--in place of a country for this example--in itself is it's own culture the way a single country is, and in neither place will you see a horrible thing rise up and be squashed down in the same era.




> Yes that was the point of my thread realistic romance and Lori Gottileb's book which you denounced vehemently :tongue:.


Two things:

1) You accent every thing you say by pinning on gender roles, which I don't see as the center for that problem.

2) There's a difference between my wants as a person and what passes for an unrealistic expectation of other people, which is the central point I remember making.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

meltedsorbet said:


> But I think that since you are going to turn a new leaf or whatever,


I was hoping it wouldn't come across as that melodramatic lol.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

@_android654_

I have no idea what you are saying at times.

Please re-word quick, I think this thread is gonna get closed.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

strangestdude said:


> @_android654_
> 
> I have no idea what you are saying at times.
> 
> Please re-word quick, I think this thread is gonna get closed.



What I'm saying is that you're comparing two different societies who think, feel, and interpret things differently. No black person in the US or UK, who's from there has seen the oppression of black people begin and end in their life time. That's my point.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

android654 said:


> What I'm saying is that you're comparing two different societies who think, feel, and interpret things differently. No black person in the US or UK, who's from there has seen the oppression of black people begin and end in their life time. That's my point.


Oh ok, still it is a significant change. They were restricted and treated in a way that I couldn't dream of. Spat on for walking down the street, legally discriminated against, etc.

I don't think it's respectful to trivialize the changes that have taken place in the US and UK since the mid 20th century in regards to equal rights, and egalitarianism.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

strangestdude said:


> I like a woman who can stand up to me. Move to my area and lets date.


As long as you don't fuck on the first date. I like sex to be a challenge, it makes me feel special. I don't want some easy old bike that everyone else has probably had a go on.


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## Aquarian (Jun 17, 2012)

I saw the title of this thread on the front forums page.

Said to myself: " I bet I know which PerC member started this thread."

Then said to myself: "oh, stop making assumptions, self! Maybe it's not!"

....

It is.

Well, at least this site is consistent. It's like: well, it just wouldn't be PerC without regular posts like this from this particular member. 

Though it does seem like quite a broken record and I wonder if this particular tune will ever change.


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

Strangestdude, I have no idea why I am responding to you, but I shall. No idea what your reputation is like, but your own action seems to deter you further away from what you truly want in your heart. One has a choice in life. To remove junk stuff which gets thrown our way and sticks, or we can try to avoid certain situations and so forth. Also, what our parents' generation go through is THEIR karma. Let that be what it is. Even when I listened to what my parents talk about in their generation, I just listened with interest. I always thought that there is like a generational gap between what they experienced to what I experienced too. So I never really had as a close relationship as I now see my sister have with her kid. Saying that, the world changes always. We can learn about one another's lives, and our family tree, and its root by speaking out about things, and listening to our own relatives and so forth. Family gives us ROOTS. But saying that, what has that actually got to do with your dating life? It is neither here, nor there. If one cannot control and understand their own body function, or their physical desire, than that is a lack of self discipline.

Dating, or casual sex, is just that, CASUAL. Most people do not lie about it. Others are honest and open with what they want and do not want. Some people are perceptive of others, but they do not tell openly and still lie to others about what they want. Dignity and human dignity is at key here. Ethics, and values, holding oneself in dignity and respect, this is what it is all about.

If you continually on and on and on and been dating others, and just throwing people away after you are done with them. This is basically using people. Simple. There's no need for fancy words, concepts, scientific facts and so forth. Why does it hurt and why does one have psychological or emotional traumatic after effects of guilt and inward hurt? Simple, cos that is your body conscience rejecting or at least telling you that what you are doing is quite wrong. 

Maybe it is social or media perception to paint the picture that in the UK, one needs to have sex with different people cos we are animals and we need to survive, but at the heart of heart, most people DO know that, they need to lead a life with honor. It has nothing to do with self esteem, and nothing to do with our needs or urges, but everything to do with understanding one's spirit, and matching to that of what we are born to be. 

Writing things in a public manner means that you want those words to be heard. If you do not want your reputation or your image to be dinted, then do not sprout rubbish online. Simple Life 101. 

Too much talking... BS... Really !


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Aquarian said:


> Well, at least this site is consistent. It's like: well, it just wouldn't be PerC without regular posts like this from this particular member. .


I'm actually gonna take that as a compliment.


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## ToplessOrange (Jun 3, 2013)

strangestdude said:


> *OK guys, to all my fans and detractors I'm letting you guys know that I'm not going to be making anymore facetious threads in S and R anymore.
> 
> **I won't lie, it's been really fun being an asshole, but my conscience is bothering me (ie. I've engaged in shaming the female demographic, and there are people taking my quasi-misogynistic perspective on women and dating seriously) and so it's time to stop.
> *
> ...


I thoroughly enjoyed this post and don't understand the lack of Thanks. Is it because of your profile pic? I kept imagining you were Eddie. That gave a bit of an asshole vibe.

But I think this would be a post to share, because whether I fully agree with the conclusions or not, it brings up several points to attention of my consideration much more and I'd like to explore this.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Your post was... Confusing.



Bago said:


> If you do not want your reputation or your image to be dinted, then do not sprout rubbish online. Simple Life 101.


If I cared about my reputation being affected I wouldn't have done it, the only reason why I'm stopping is because there are dudes taking my presentation style seriously. And I do shame women as part of my style. Anyone who does take every post I make on a text based internet forum seriously, lacks a decent level of social intelligence IMO.

I'm replying alot for entertainment, and I'm predicting this thread will get shut like another one I did.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

Dating women doesn't make you a misogynist. Having misogynistic beliefs makes you a misogynist.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

strangestdude said:


> Oh ok, still it is a significant change. They were restricted and treated in a way that I couldn't dream of. Spat on for walking down the street, legally discriminated against, etc.
> 
> I don't think it's respectful to trivialize the changes that have taken place in the US and UK since the mid 20th century in regards to equal rights, and egalitarianism.


I agree that it is something important and needed to be done, any rational person would agree, but in the US it took 100 years to go from emancipation to civil rights. That's a long fucking time for people to think, "hmm, should black guys be treated like people?" Change is very slow.


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## FallingSlowly (Jul 1, 2013)

TheOminousMuffin said:


> I kept imagining you were Eddie.


Is that not the whole point?


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## Falling Leaves (Aug 18, 2011)

...

I don't understand. You claim you're going to stop trolling this forum, but then say the exact same shit you've parroted in the past...?

Did I miss an edit or something...?

Seriously confused.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

android654 said:


> Change is very slow.


That's true.

I still think it's strange that despite the woman's movement it's still largely men who are the initiators. Women are outperfoming men in education, and are forging careers as entrepreneurs and in top level management, and yet they seem to like quasi-traditional gender dynamics regarding dating proposals and marriage proposals.

Even the many no nonsense women managers and career climbers would pretty much conformed to traditional gender dynamics when it came to courtship.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

TheOminousMuffin said:


> I thoroughly enjoyed this post and don't understand the lack of Thanks. Is it because of your profile pic? I kept imagining you were Eddie. That gave a bit of an asshole vibe.
> 
> But I think this would be a post to share, because whether I fully agree with the conclusions or not, it brings up several points to attention of my consideration much more and I'd like to explore this.


I guess he has a bad reputation... which automatically negates any noteworthy content he raises from contemplation to some of the viewers. I don't fully understand it. There are posters on this forum who I frequently disagree with, but that doesn't mean that I readily dismiss them and each of their posts based upon those circumstances.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Falling Leaves said:


> ...
> 
> I don't understand. You claim you're going to stop trolling this forum, but then say the exact same shit you've parroted in the past...?
> 
> ...


I didn't say I was trolling. :happy:

Yes you missed this;



> In this thread (and probably my last) I'll try to present the serious points that I was implicitly making for you to ponder or dismiss;


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

strangestdude said:


> Your post was... Confusing.
> 
> If I cared about my reputation being affected I wouldn't have done it, the only reason why I'm stopping is because there are dudes taking my presentation style seriously. And I do shame women as part of my style. Anyone who does take every post I make on a text based internet forum seriously, lacks a decent level of social intelligence IMO.
> 
> I'm replying alot for entertainment, and I'm predicting this thread will get shut like another one I did.


Social intelligence? I think you're missing the point. This forum is visited by global audience. Is your humour rather British, or is it rather misdirected? If you cannot communicate the right thing, to the right people, in the right manner, then there lies your problem.

I used to be SO optimistic about dating, how I feel about someone, what I do in my life, know my boundaries etc... Until I read crapsticks like these kind of posts online, and it just makes me SO mad.

But, then again, I do not believe in your fear, and nor should I join you in your rant. It is hardly my karma.


Dating women creates misogynists ?
Doing too much of one thing against the will and against your heart makes you disllusioned, yes. Even if it is your love life.
One has to live a balanced life to achieve happiness. Too much of one thing and not enough of understanding and allowing yourself to feel where you are, what you are doing, makes you disllusioned. It is that simple. There is no point pushing your hatred, onto concepts, words, labels, rants etc... Cos it still does not make you feel good about your own dating life, or the fact that you want a love life, or love a person deeply.

Maybe if you stopped serial dating and actually allow your emotions to come through, then you will see life to be more beautiful than you think of, than you think that it is just a basic animal need.


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

strangestdude said:


> That's true.
> 
> I still think it's strange that despite the woman's movement it's still largely men who are the initiators. Women are outperfoming men in education, and are forging careers as entrepreneurs and in top level management, and yet they seem to like quasi-traditional gender dynamics regarding dating proposals and marriage proposals.
> 
> Even the many no nonsense women managers and career climbers would pretty much conformed to traditional gender dynamics when it came to courtship.


BS BS BS BS BS....
If you have been in the working system, and instead of reading BS articles, THEN you will know WHY there are a lack of female management individuals, and why some guys are STILL arseholes even if they have climbed that ladder, cos they lack responsibilities, and moral values. Some still politically act in a selfish manner and make sure that THEIR position is never threatened. 

Articles and social science articles hardly allow one to frankly assess a company setup.
If you want to see why so many guys are in top tier level management, you only have to read pretty BS'ing posts, and behaviours from individuals to see that they bullied their way to the top. Or that they allow the corporate culture such that it is deliverable results which drives up the management chain. Guys who talk strategies without humanities are actually sadists, unfortunately. Printing numerous articles to support these "stats" is just enabling them to behave that way more and more. If you want to see truthful articles, then you should indeed look into HR articles, or any articles about dynamics within a corporation.


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

strangestdude said:


> I didn't say I was trolling. :happy:
> 
> Yes you missed this;


You did not "say", but your behaviour is showing as such... So to then use this card is pretty moot, cos a man is held responsible by his words and his actions !

You wrote those things, you posted it. You did the provocation....

So what exactly do you expect?


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## dragthewaters (Feb 9, 2013)

I'm a feminist, but I actually agree that men and women should both initiate relationships. Speaking as a woman, I never initiated a conversation with guys I liked, etc. because I was afraid I would come across as desperate or weird since it isn't the "done thing". But there were times when I would see someone and want to start up a conversation with them, or want to ask out someone who I knew, and feel stupid that I never did. I think it would be good if society was more accepting of women being the ones to ask guys out, as well as vice versa.

I do agree that a lot of misogynists are guys who were shot down very often by women. But I think that just being shot down in and of itself is not a reason to hate women. I mean, you can't expect women to want to date you or "give you a chance" just because you asked them out. So men who hate women just because of being rejected are still assholes.

For example, I live in a ghetto neighborhood, and therefore often get hit on by creepy guys while walking down the street. There was one occasion where I was walking down the street and the person walking next to me made some lewd "hey babe"-type comment. I ignored it and didn't look at him since I didn't want to engage in conversation with someone who catcalls at women. He got upset and was like "What? I was just trying to TALK to you, bitch." When I have no obligation to talk to him just because he said something to me.


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## Falling Leaves (Aug 18, 2011)

strangestdude said:


> I didn't say I was trolling. :happy:


No, what you said was this -

*



I won't lie, it's been really fun being an asshole, but my conscience is bothering me (ie. I've engaged in shaming the female demographic, and there are people taking my quasi-misogynistic perspective on women and dating seriously) and so it's time to stop.

Click to expand...

*Which sounds like a fairly apt definition of trolling.



> Yes you missed this;


I did miss that - genuine mistake on my part. Sorry.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Bago said:


> So what exactly do you expect?


I expected it to go one of 2 ways. Like it is, or discussion.

It probably would have been OK if I would have left the first few alone, but I can't resist countering trolling.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

thismustbetheplace said:


> I do agree that a lot of misogynists are guys who were shot down very often by women. But I think that just being shot down in and of itself is not a reason to hate women. I mean, you can't expect women to want to date you or "give you a chance" just because you asked them out. So men who hate women just because of being rejected are still assholes.


I'm curious if you read the excerpts from the book? And what did you think of her sympathizing with men, and developing temporary misogyny?

I was speaking to a guy who is I'll leave has formal training in psychology, the dude told me he was a misogynist due to some bad relationships. He is a very intelligent guy who knows about psychology formally, and yet has become a misogynist (meaning he has the sentiment not that he promotes it). I think to simplify and shame them as assholes doesn't help change things. 

It's like dismissing racist people, often IMO what triggers some people to become racist are traumatic experiences, and/or political concerns which they feel are shamed for discussion or being concerned about. I think it's better to have dialogue with them, than to simply label them as 'bad' and not try to understand what is contributing to their sentiment.

I buy into the hypothesis that prejudice is largely a subconscious defense mechanism against future pain. Our mind generalizes a demographic based on bad experiences with a few members of that demographic, and so we develop prejudice against them.


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

If a woman rejecting you is maybe because she does not want to lead you on. When I was younger, and I did not want a relationship, I had to say "no". Simple. The guys who were really pushy, and then throws anger at you, are people that had a chip on their shoulder. My family when I was younger warned me about the different guys who treats you well to those who doesn't, and they were indeed right. most guys during their teenage years or their early 20s are indeed only interested in sex. Which is true. 
Cos the guys that are patient, are indeed people who have good or strong self control, knows the difference between the right way to treat someone to the wrong way to treat someone too. 

As I now realised in hindsight is that, as a guy growing up, their hormones or testosterone are rather high, so they are indeed likely to be more aggressive in nature. Girls are not so. Our hormones are different. For a girl to behave like a guy, it means that she has to go against her own nature and act against that. Our anime comes out during our mid-20s, and most people use this to channel into their working life, rather than onto people per se. Hurting people, and hurting them because of ourselves and because of our own sense of growth is really in my honest opinion a rather immoral thing to do. 

You are what you read.
You are what you eat.
You are who you date.
You are what you let into your life and cloud your judgments and dampen your own dreams... 

It is not a wrong thing for a girl to self protect themselves especially when they are unsure of the world around them, and this is not or should not be seen as a snobby thing at all. People who are raised well have a sense of collaboration and mutual co-operation around them. Those who isn't, or is in their lives pretty fearful or brought up in a very independent manner with fear associated to it, are those who act more selfish and treat people and use them so much more. This is my observation and experience.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

So, we could say something along the lines of ...

Dating black people creates racists.

Would this fly, at all?

Yeah, didn't think so ...


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

koalaroo said:


> So, we could say something along the lines of ...
> 
> Dating black people creates racists.
> 
> ...


The rascal in me wants someone to make that discussion just so I can see what happens.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

koalaroo said:


> Dating black people creates racists.


I put a question mark after. And I made the title so people would click.

I agree with Norah Vincent that the dynamics of modern dating contributes to (not causes) misogynistic tendencies. She herself confesses to developing those tendencies, and she attributed it to the experiences dating women as a man.

I've personally had non aggressive discussions with homophobes (I'm pansexual) and racists trying to understand their position.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Bago said:


> If a woman rejecting you is maybe because she does not want to lead you on.


It wasn't just being rejected why Norah (and I think many guys) became bitter, it's also the experiences of dating women. Many women don't seem to value the effort men make and are at times rude, or treat men like they aren't even worthy of a verbal or written response to their advances.

In the book Norah said she was annoyed by how she was prejudged by many woman as a bad person, she felt she was "guilty til prove innocent." And she was annoyed by the consistent behavior she came across from women, like self absorption.


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## Greenfeldspar (Nov 3, 2009)

Interesting points you make. In our culture, men are shamed for expressing their emotions and not always 'getting the girl' or being 'alpha'; women are called 'bitchy' if they act 'too' assertive/forward, and 'frigid' if unresponsive. I agree that it is unfair that men are expected (by women) to pay for dates and always initiate in relationships. But it is unfair of the men who believe that women are obligated to date them whether or not they want to as well.


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

strangestdude said:


> It wasn't just being rejected why Norah (and I think many guys) became bitte it's they way it which they are, and it's not just rejection it's the experiences of dating women. Many women don't seem to value the effort men make and are at times rude, or treat men like they aren't even worthy of a verbal or written response to their advances.
> 
> In the book Norah said she was annoyed by how she was prejudged by many woman as a bad person, she felt she was "guilty til prove innocent." And she was annoyed by the consistent behavior she came across from women, like self absorption.


But you also have to understand this too, what it is like to be a woman. So if a woman is flirting with you or more herself, then she may be claimed as flirting or sleeping with men in order to go up the ladder. Yet, if she is polite and friendly with you, the next thing which will happen is that she will be asked out on a date, and put on the spot. I have seen guys who I have dealt with in my working life such that I was in your words, "rude to him", he was funny and flirty to begin with, and then when I gave him an answer which he did not find acceptable, he changed his attitude asap. I tried to stay neutral. It was very obvious what a lot of people saw, and I tried to blank this out and did not react to it, because it was absolutely unprofessional on his side. 

Most people will indeed try to show a sign of respect and not flirt, in a way to denote to themselves, and to someone else that they are professional. Some guys, IF they are actually mature, SHOULD know how to talk to women. In a normal manner, without any sign of sexual frustration on their part, and nor should they behave at every single whim as if the girl is leading him on, or that he should take every opportunity to date her and actually pester her.

Maybe I was brought up in a different environment. The male elders in my family never saw me as a target, and I learnt how to be amicable and treat others WITH respect. i.e. acknowledge their age and accept and respect them etc. I know how to talk socially to put someone back into their place and hint at them etc. Yet, the UK population and the way that most Brits are, is that most men take a shot at flirting at any girl who wears a skirt. As if they OWN the world. That is arrogance imho. That is arrogant because they disregard their immediate social environment and just focused on their own needs etc. Their own desire. More often than not, these men also do not learn too and also arrogantly expect someone to come back with a form of sexual innuendo to fight off this kind of civility sexual joke to "hint that I like you". WTH.... 

Crap. Where do guys get off doing this kind of thing ??? 

Tell me, why should a guy indeed be validated socially ? 
I do not know about you but I behave differently depending on my social environment. I am more warm with family and friends and people who I feel more familiar with. I do not try and do this kind of sexual flirtation in my workplace either, and nor do I lead the guys on such that they think they have a chance. I can usually spot a mile off as to whether a guy can indeed handle himself or not etc. Most guys who have had a long term gf, or have been brought up with women around them, act less of a jerk and understand women so much more. I was also brought up with a lot of brothers, and also older uncles etc. So I know how to respect them and behave in a respectable manner etc, and do not dress too overtly. Most people who hasn't been raised this way, or is uncertain of themselves, will indeed actually act out their mania socially.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Ocelotte said:


> But it is unfair of the men who believe that women are obligated to date them whether or not they want to as well.


I just think some men become frustrated by having to be the primary initiators and the effort they have to put out and become a bit 'creepy' or 'resentful'.

Not directly related to your post but;

Patrice O Neal was a comedian (and genius) who was highly respected in his field, and very successful with (culturally) attractive women. And yet he would publicly and passionately say how much he resented the effort that was expected of men, and the lack of effort and bad attitudes from women in dating. He wasn't some 'loser', as people like to make out anyone who discusses this subject is, and yet he expressed the same resentment.


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## DiamondDays (Sep 4, 2012)

Word. OP is entirely right. Doesn't change anything tho. No use whining about it really.


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## la_revolucion (May 16, 2013)

So I assume OP that you have had a terrible time in the dating world? But how are you certain all your failures aren't due entirely to yourself or simply just meeting the wrong people? That would seem to make more sense than blaming an entire gender. It's pretty insulting to generalize all single women together as if all their thoughts, feelings and actions are uniform across the board.

Do you even consider yourself a nice guy? A guy a woman would even want to date? What are you bringing to the table? Your attitudes in this thread would make me run FAR FAR away if I met you on the dating scene. No one is entitled to a romantic relationship. 

On the flip side of this, I once knew a girl who was ALWAYS bitching about how awful men were. It got SO annoying listening to her bash men 24-7 and blaming them for her failures in the dating world. Why was she failing? Her personality was garbage. She was the perfect example of a crazy psycho. Men were attracted to her "good looks" and then ran for the hills after spending any quality time with her. LMAO! 

You and her should go on a dinner date. Then the two of you can duke it out over which gender is the most responsible for you both being single.


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## Greenfeldspar (Nov 3, 2009)

strangestdude said:


> I just think some men become frustrated by having to be the primary initiators and the effort they have to put out and become a bit 'creepy' or 'resentful'.
> 
> Not directly related to your post but;
> 
> Patrice O Neal was a comedian (and genius) who was highly respected in his field, and very successful with (culturally) attractive women. And yet he would publicly and passionately say how much he resented the effort that was expected of men, and the lack of effort and bad attitudes from women in dating. He wasn't some 'loser', as people like to make out anyone who discusses this subject is, and yet he expressed the same resentment.


Ah, I see what you're getting at. Repeated rejection with that added expectation of being the initiate would definitely harbour frustration and resentment.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Bago said:


> Tell me, why should a guy indeed be validated socially ?


You've completely misunderstood my point.

What I was suggesting is that if someone asks you out or tries to initiate conversation, treating them rudely can contribute to resentment. If someone approaches politely then you get give them a polite no, if they push it then feel free to treat them like crap IMO. In a nutshell; You are free to treat people as you please, but your behavior affects others. 

The trolls will latch on to this but I'll tell you this experience I've had twice: 

I'm stood by a bar with my friends, dealing with mild social anxiety, and stood listening to the music. I had 2 women walk, stop, turn, stand in front of me, look me up and down, giggle in disgust and walk away.

Though annoyed (because I wasn't even thinking of chatting them up) I shrugged off the experience, because I know I'm averagely attractive and other dudes I've known in my life have been treated with outright rudeness by women for no reason when they've approached them. I was shocked 2 weeks later to discover that many men have experienced similar behavior from (specifically black) women when I listened to a radio show hosted by a B list actor. He talked about this phenomenon and how much it pisses him off. He says he gets treated with outright rudeness by women he talks to politely, until the recognize him and then he walks away disgusted by their rudeness. He says it happens to him frequently. 

I loved his response to one woman who said, "it's just young women being rude I don't see why it's a big deal!"

He said to her; "Have you ever approached anyone and had them look you up and down and giggle?" 

"No" She replied.

"Then you don't know how it feels then do you?" He responded.


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

strangestdude said:


> Patrice O Neal was a comedian (and genius) who was highly respected in his field, and very successful with *(culturally) attractive* *women*. And yet he would publicly and passionately say how much he resented the effort that was expected of men, and the lack of effort and bad attitudes from women in dating. He wasn't some 'loser', as people like to make out anyone who discusses this subject is, and yet he expressed the same resentment.



So... he got the nice looking ladies - the ones that are 'harder to get' because of the higher level of competition (because, god forbid a man would be with a woman because she is stimulating in other ways than sexual) and then he complains about competing for them. Yeah...ok.

And the statement about him not being a looser, is that based on his ability to be "very successful with (culturally) attractive women"? Because that is one thing that many women resent - being seen as a trophy & as a means to boost someone's self esteem or as a notch in the bed post. If he had indeed been "very successful", IMO, it would have been with ONE woman, not women...


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

Swede said:


> So... he got the nice looking ladies - the ones that are 'harder to get' because of the higher level of competition (because, god forbid a man would be with a woman because she is stimulating in other ways than sexual) and then he complains about competing for them. Yeah...ok.
> 
> And the statement about him not being a looser, is that based on his ability to be "very successful with (culturally) attractive women"? Because that is one thing that many women resent - being seen as a trophy & as a means to boost someone's self esteem or as a notch in the bed post. If he had indeed been "very successful", IMO, it would have been with ONE woman, not women...


While I don't agree with sdude on much, but Patirce was a very gifted comic, even if his career was never validated in the way sit-comics are. Hey may not have been Kevin James or Ray Romano with a family friendly act that landed his a show and movies, but he was gifted in understanding what humor is. From that end I would say he was a successful person. What I think the OP does wrong is taking his standup--which for most comics is "on" all the time--and believing it to be gospel. Are they observations fo what he sees and experiences? Of course, but it's not always quantified as truth.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

I'm not sure why women are having a hard time grasping that the combination of;

A) The cultural expectation of men to be the primary initiators of courtship.

And,

B) Women habitually responding to men with rudeness and indifference when they make the effort to court women. (Norah mentioned this experience as being frustrating)

And,

C) Women expecting men to be entertaining, interesting and polite on dates or during courtship, whilst they aren't concerned about being equally as entertaining, interesting and polite. (Norah mentioned this experience as being frustrating)

And,

D) Being prejudged by women as being "guilty until proven innocent." (Norah mentioned this experience as being frustrating)

Contributes to resentment in some men.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Swede said:


> So... he got the nice looking ladies - the ones that are 'harder to get' because of the higher level of competition (because, god forbid a man would be with a woman because she is stimulating in other ways than sexual) and then he complains about competing for them. Yeah...ok.


Again, another woman ignoring men talking about their frustrations. He found attractive who he found attractive.



> And the statement about him not being a looser, is that based on his ability to be "very successful with (culturally) attractive women"? Because that is one thing that many women resent - being seen as a trophy & as a means to boost someone's self esteem or as a notch in the bed post. If he had indeed been "very successful", IMO, it would have been with ONE woman, not women...


Nope, it was based on many women using the 'virgin basement dweller' as an insult. He wasn't he was respected in his field, and was successful with women. He died a married man in love.


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

android654 said:


> While I don't agree with sdude on much, but Patirce was a very gifted comic, even if his career was never validated in the way sit-comics are. Hey may not have been Kevin James or Ray Romano with a family friendly act that landed his a show and movies, but he was gifted in understanding what humor is. From that end I would say he was a successful person. What I think the OP does wrong is taking his standup--which for most comics is "on" all the time--and believing it to be gospel. Are they observations fo what he sees and experiences? Of course, but it's not always quantified as truth.


Sure, it's not Patrice I have issue with and trust me, my sense of humor is not always family friendly either, it's the way that OP seems to measure some sort of level of success of Patrice's based solely on the amount of attractive women he was successful with. It's just ... sad. 
I mean, life is not about getting validation through who you attract, but you have to respect yourself first and foremost. If you don't, no amount of hot chicks/rich guys will make you feel better about yourself, even though you may be able to fool yourself to think so for a while.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

android654 said:


> Of course, but it's not always quantified as truth.


Again... What does this sentence mean?


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## ghostly (Jun 8, 2013)

You wanna know an interesting inequity about heterosexual dating that works to one gender's disadvantage? Women are vastly more likely than men to get raped, beaten, and killed by their partners. Excuse me if I'm not shedding any tears for you because _you guys have to propose _and then blame women for your misogyny.


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## Arclight (Feb 10, 2010)

strangestdude said:


> More psychological profiling and passive aggression.
> 
> Good day to you my friend.


So what? Your OP is the poster child for psychological profiling.
I have to operate within the established rules.. I can't just come on straight at you. 
I assure you my intention is still the same even if I don't resort to more crude caveman like statements of assertion.
Read between the lines and you will see I am not so passive aggressive. 
I know you think you are pretty clever.. and maybe you are.. But is your cleverness efficient? 
Obviously you are not so efficient with the ladies.
Me personally, I am thankful guys like you exist. 

You ask for possible solutions.. Try being more efficient. 
And try not to be a parody of a parody.. Blake could back his shit up.. You can't.


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

You know what... one thing which was said to me in my 20s, which I think holds true to the OP as well. 
"Do you hate ALL Men? Not all men are like that."

I used to get defensive when someone said that to me, and to me, I was merely sharing my one time or two time bad experience socially to others, so that I can get sympathies. But one thing I learnt though is that, I did not communicate in such a way which gained sympathies for myself, I came across as if I was hating all men. People noted my tone, they noted my written words. They literally said and responded in a way which was more hostile than I can bear. I had to step back and assess why that is, and what I wrote was so wrong. I was extremely upset by it. 

What I learnt was this... that I was a part of the human race, and that I had to be considerate to those who were not related to me, and nor should I stereotype, and to generalise and to paint everyone with the same exact brush. Cos what I did, was exactly just that. Some people saw my response, and they felt sorry for me, and gave me an idea on how to better things. Some thought I was off this planet for continually to debate.

At some point, I forgotten about the fact I wrote that and I continue to date. I soon realised the depth of humanity, the emotions it goes with things, and how people are, and why they are. How men and women hold themselves with dignities. I started to respect people, and not really see the world through my goggles only. Cos I joined in their views, and then cross referenced it with my own. I became a person, and my values solidifies. 

It is one of those things that the young will question, and the old will have accepted things and chuckle, and is more responsible of. When you have been through that stage in life, you will indeed look back, and understand the whats, and the whys. It all makes sense. 

All I can say is KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid. With simplicity, you do not complicate matters. If a girl does not like you, then does not ask her out. If you have no chance of succeeding at something, then do not do it. Or practice it first before doing it for the first time. 

Most people just get along in their day to day things without going waaaaaaaaaaay deep into this kind of stuff which vex their brains. Most girls, and I remember I felt this too when young, is that, I felt like the guy is way too complicated and actually is here to mess me around, cos he had thought way too into this date, or into me, and I do not need this kind of BS in order to date somebody. It is needless, and meaningless. What I realised in hindsight is that, being this complicated actually reduces my oxytocin, or whatever lovely hormones are floating around in my brain. That is why. So now, even if I smelt one bit of complication like this, I actually just walk away, unless it is the guy I chose to date. 

Go with the flow...


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## FallingSlowly (Jul 1, 2013)

@_UtterMess_ I agree with your post, apart from the last two paragraphs. I personally think if you want to remotely provide answers (really not sure if there are any though tbh), you need to bring in the other side as well, because these problems have a dynamic. "Sharing thoughts, experiences, perspective and possible solutions" encompasses all that.

I probably don't have much of value to contribute here (if the value is merely to be controversial), because I find myself going through this thread, agreeing with opinions/views that seem to be at the complete opposite end of the spectrum (both sides). 

I come into this as a woman who is "settled" and therefore doesn't date, but I did at some point, and I schizophrenically can _understand_ both sides of the argument, although I can only _identify_ with a female view obviously. The latter, I can't change.

*1) There are inequities within modern hetero dating, where generally men are at a disadvantage.*
There are insofar (imo) as that I'd agree we are usually (!) the ones who decide if we let men bounce off in a stereotypical "chat up situation". I see how that can feel humiliating if the woman does it in a demeaning way. Other than that, it's just a fact of life that there's no entitlement to be liked by someone. A woman who "pursues" makes herself equally vulnerable. The latter, I have done in the past, but not in bars/clubs. And this is one thought I had (not a general solution though): Try to remove yourself from that environment if you're not just after sex. If you are, fair enough, but then you're probably also not that emotionally involved and shouldn't care too much.

From a personal perspective: I'm late 30s. I had six serious long(er)term relationships in my life, and various flings (that includes a limited amount of one night stands). Out if these six relationships, I met one (!) in a club, and that one actually started as a "no strings attached" one nighter. So it does happen, but I'd say it's not the rule, and if I look around, I personally see very few couples who started out like that and are still together after a reasonable amount of time. All the other guys I met in bars/clubs were just after getting laid. And that's fair enough. Sometimes you have chemistry, sometimes you don't. If you don't, let people down gently and don't treat them like arseholes. Appreciate the vulnerable position that someone who chats you up puts him/herself in. Also learn to take a No for what it is - a No. Goes for men and women alike.

If you're not just after sex, change your dating scene. The other five relationships I had/have all started outside the bar/club environment: Common hobbies, work, mutual friends - and the great thing about that is that the lines are a lot more blurred in these environments. You get to know people first. You don't really need to chat them up in the way you do if they're complete strangers to you. Granted, someone still has to make the first step to take it to another level, and there's a different type of risk involved if you e.g. work together or have mutual friends, but you can't have the best of both worlds...

*2) Men discussing or complaining about the inequities and double standards of hetero dating are ignored or insulted.*
I guess that's really down to not being able to empathise, but also to how one brings their point across. Make your point by all means, but don't tar every man or woman with the same brush. I cannot deny that many of the points brought forward by both sides are valid in theory and on average, and I also understand that personal experiences colour our perception. But the thing is that:
a) the experiences of the average population don't determine your own life
b) your personal experience is not valid for the average population
And I'm totally aware that, depending on angle re dating, one could perceive a) and b) as somewhat contradictory if you just look at it superficially, but as someone who has tried to defy stereotypes all her life (and at the same time couldn't always prevent matching one or the other), I still have to say: It's entirely in your hands if you let these societal pressures control you or not. That doesn't mean you can always escape them btw, but I always tried to make my own luck, pursued men who I thought were worth it. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. Generally though, the risk was always worth taking. Yes, being knocked back hurt for a while (for a minute or a month, depending on the man), but it certainly didn't make me bitter, nor did it make me question humankind. I sometimes do that for other reasons 

Now, I am/was in the somewhat "lucky" position that I was regarded as "mating potential" by a lot of guys because I am reasonably attractive, so I hear the "you can only understand it if you're ugly" (although wording it like that is a very fine line to walk imo). Men should also understand however that it doesn't necessarily make life easier. You are more likely to be scanned as "tits and ass", you actually have to deal with the fact that more guys try to chat you up, and consequentially, you have to say No more often (attraction is not something you can just switch on or off whenever you please. However, it doesn't mean I think that the guy I'm not romantically or sexually interested in is generally a terrible human being or something). Everyone who thinks that's always great: Think again. It's not comfortable, at least not for me, because I still know what it feels like if someone knocks you back. The ones who need that type of "admiration" to bolster up their ego might like it, but I personally always found it extremely uncomfortable. Not because the guys who chatted me up necessarily "creeped me out", but because I understand that you need to work up some courage to do it in the first place. 

At the end of the day, men and women are equals, they share the same emotional vulnerabilities. 

*3) The inequities of dating contribute to resentment and misogyny*
I can understand that to a certain extent if the experiences have been overwhelmingly negative, but overall, I can only say: Thoughts are only that. Thoughts. They only have power over you if you let them. You can resent society and its dynamics, but you should give each individual a chance. 
That's really all I can say about it from a personal point of view.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Bago said:


> Girls talk. But you also have to remind yourself this is what you did too. You went to a bar, with another friend, in a group setting, and you were seen by others as trying to hook up. In a bar. Exactly why do you feel that you felt unjust in any way?


People go to bars to socialize as well as court, I didn't even make eye contact with them. I gave no indication that I was interested in chatting up women, because I wasn't. 

If you don't see simply from the description in the previous post and above, why the way she behaved towards me was unnecessary and rude, then I doubt any further explanation will make you have empathy.

And like the radio host asked the lady who didn't see it was a 'big deal';

Have you ever approached someone, then had them look you up and down and giggle at you in response?

(Please answer that question directly)

It's very easy to think it's not a big deal when you haven't experienced it.



> So? Then do not go to a bar ! lol.. Simple.


If you think women are only rude to men in bars then you are incredibly naive. 

Another story; I was tagging along with a friend who was delivering pizzas as a job, we saw some women we found attractive and just looked and smiled at them. One looked us up and down like we were trash and said "I would never deliver pizzas." 

My friend grew up in a single parent household with 3 siblings, was poor by UK standards, and was trying to better his position in life by working 3 fucking jobs. I could tell it deeply hurt him by the look on his face. (BTW now he owns real estate and trades stocks. He has enough money now to buy house and land outright in a first world country and plans on emigrating with his family.) 

Practically every man I've known beyond superficial relationship has stories of women treating them rudely when they tried to initiate courtship verbally or non verbally.

Is your suggestion that my friend and I should avoid public places to avoid rudeness?

Is your suggestion that men should avoid initiating courtship with women to avoid rudeness?


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

snail said:


> Women often end up suspicious of the average man because there is no way of knowing who the liars, the abusers, the players, the pick up artists, the control freaks, the manipulators, and the rapists are. Most men are not evil, but those who lack a conscience can easily disguise themselves as decent human beings. This sets the default reaction as rejection until we feel comfortable enough to trust someone.
> 
> When women date, we must consider the possibility that we may be murdered, beaten, used for sex, cheated on, lied to, impregnated and abandoned, or raped by someone we thought we could trust. When men date, they tend to worry about the pain and humiliation of potential rejection, the burden of getting the approach just right so they seem neither pushy nor disinterested, neither so accommodating they come across as manipulative nor so tough that they seem threatening. Neither set of concerns is trivial, but to say women have it easy is simply naive.


Men get cheated on, lied to, beaten, get duped by paternity fraud, used for money, and abandoned by women regularly. 

It's interesting that you seems don't think men also have anxieties and concerns about how they will be treated by potential partners. Women aren't the only one's with concerns like that.



> it must be noted that dating is dangerous for women, and not all of us are willing to settle for just any man who wants to borrow our genitals as a temporary replacement for masturbation.


This is exactly the "guilty til proven innocent" line of thinking that Norah Vincent explained eloquently in her book, I'll requote it for you.

Being a feminist you might find what she's saying interesting given what you've written about men in your post...

_They tended to see a wolf in every man they met, and so they made every man they met into a wolf - even when that man was a woman."

Not surprisingly really. The women who were hostile to me made me mad, and that made me want to be hostile to them. I can't imagine men in the same positions not reacting the same way. And so the self perpetuating cycle of unkindness and discontent would go on and on, feeding on itself. These women were mostly hostile int he first place because they felt that men's bad behavior had made them so, and the men they met behaved badly because hostility breeds contempt.

It wasn't a good recipe for finding a lasting relationship, but I could remember feeling exactly the way it seemed these women did when I was a young women in and just out of college. I found plenty of ammunition for hating men in Women's studies 101, much of it, like the subjugation and abuse of women historically (and even currently), undeniable. Whats' more, I found plenty of reinforcement for my fledgling misandry in the crass undergraduates I encountered everywhere on campus. I'd read the textbooks of radical feminism, and following their lead, I thought all males were tainted by the patriarchy. For years thereafter, every guy I met was on probation._



> Most of us have been hurt by men in some manner, some so badly that we may never fully recover, and even if we begin our lives in a state of joyful acceptance, pain closes us.


Men experience the same pains and traumas from relationships, and we are still expected to initiate courtship and never feel any resentment or lingering bitterness from past hurts. 

Women don't have a monopoly on pain when it comes to relationships, and women has just as manipulative and abusive as men.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

The Wanderering ______ said:


> And then of course we have the "Losers" The protypical complainers who never won at life because they couldn't play the game to begin with. Even though the truth is a computer system can't function without trash. Strangestdude unfortunately being one of them making these threads probably as much as he changes bedsheets.


Lol can you guys who disagree with me make one post without psychologizing?

Jesus christ.


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## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

@OrangeAppled, @series0

Between the two of you, you've inadvertently put your finger on the key to the whole situation.
Will spell this out after work tonight.

Oh, and @OrangeAppled -- nice Wall-O-Text there. Keep it up!:tongue:
g_w


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Brian1 said:


> I didn't know Patrice,but, I'm a fan of American Comedy. I don't know that much about relationships,but, I know a lot about comics. Patrice was from the insult your audience line that has had greats like Don Rickles, who comes before him, always insulting others. I think what Strangestdude's problem was, was that he missed that O'Neal engaged his audience, and he had a long time common law wife. And of course, it's just an act this guy is putting on,


If you think Patrice's views on dating and women was an act, then it's because you haven't listened to much of Patrice's work on radio. He was dead serious. O and A begged him to write a book, because it actually helped their dating life. (On one O and A show Patrice said that Anthony needed to stop dating young bimbos and get a decent woman like Jill Nicholini - he actually used her name - and then proceeded to give him detailed advice on how to get a woman like her, soon after Antony was dating her. Patrice and I think Opie even triumphantly spoke on the black phillip show how Anthony's courtship success was down to Patrice.)

Please listen to the Opie and anthony show, and the black phillip show (his partner was on the show once or twice). One of the reasons why Patrice never got the level of success that other comics had was that he refused to 'sell out', just like Bill Hicks for better or worse he was always brutally honest.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

@series0

Thank you.

That was exactly the kind of insightful response that I was hoping to get.


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## Playful Proxy (Feb 6, 2012)

I've found that you have to have a certain kind of personality for the common US dating scene. Some of us just don't have it and I've found that I don't like those kind of women anyway (but why do they have to be so damn hot?). 

I'll say this bluntly and those who disagree may rage all they want: The women who treat men with hostility are the ones who get into bad relationships. I've seen this time and time again. Women seem to go after one type of guy over and over again regardless of if he is good for her. Often times, these women want the strong, asshole sensor types. She can have em. It's a bit more inconvenient for me to go find a nice quieter, less obnoxious girl with a brain in her head as it takes a bit longer, but they are SO much easier to get along with. >.> 

OP, I think men's issue these days is that we glorify negative traits in women and they keep doing it to 'fit in'. If we could figure out a way to ignore bad behavior and ostricize the loudmouthed, idiotic, and overly-emotional women, they'd try a bit harder to be sane so said people would be easier to find in every-day life.


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

strangestdude said:


> People go to bars to socialize as well as court, I didn't even make eye contact with them. I gave no indication that I was interested in chatting up women, because I wasn't.
> 
> If you don't see simply from the description in the previous post and above, why the way she behaved towards me was unnecessary and rude, then I doubt any further explanation will make you have empathy.
> 
> ...


Actually, I do not find her response to you as "rude". You think that it is rude. I find a lot of things that guys do as rude. That also include what you wrote here as a thread. I found it extremely disgusting and this is why I am on here now changing your perception and your view, cos you seem to have tunnel vision for some reason, and actually, inside of your heart is pretty dark, cos you allowed actions of others to darken them with evilness.

I have never had women walk past me and giggle as you so said. The only thing which comes to mind is if they possibly fancy you and giggle out of nervousness, but of course, you would not possibly accept that as a statement or a fact. But giggling girls only reminds me of that. I do not have giggling guys behave that way in front of me. Actually, I do ! An infp guy the other night giggled at me nervously. He was nervous. 



> It's very easy to think it's not a big deal when you haven't experienced it.


Whatever makes you feel good Mr. Believe what you like. 




> If you think women are only rude to men in bars then you are incredibly naive.


That is not what I said. Nor do I think that. What I do think, is that you definitely got a chip on your shoulders, and you also seem to care way too much about things which that you started to make it an agenda for yourself. Simple. To me, it is no skin of my nose, and nor do I feel, even as an INFP that everybody should not be rude, cos I actually prefer if others release that anger than to bottle it up, and actually one day shoot someone dead or something. I hate that bottled up aggressiveness. I rather that they let it out some way, somehow, before they sit in that ivory tower, and one day do damage. 



> Another story; I was tagging along with a friend who was delivering pizzas as a job, we saw some women we found attractive and just looked and smiled at them. One looked us up and down like we were trash and said "I would never deliver pizzas."


Maybe she was not in that moment and noticed you entirely. how do you know if she was eyeing you up this way ? She could be living in her ego state and have this scrawled face across her expression. Or that she could be really intimidated by her immediate environments and is in alert mode. Most people who feels the way they do inside, often push themselves to the extreme to do the opposite. They could be saying those things randomly out of thought, inside of communicating directly with you... 

I can say the same thing with guys in bars. Some have these pervy looks on their face and you can see and sense what they are likely to do. Others have this dark attitude facial expression whilst sitting on the side sipping their drinks, but their eyes stare extremely intensely at you but actually, it is really intimidating, but you got to pretend that they do not exist. Same difference of rudeness. 



> My friend grew up in a single parent household with 3 siblings, was poor by UK standards, and was trying to better his position in life by working 3 fucking jobs. I could tell it deeply hurt him by the look on his face. (BTW now he owns real estate and trades stocks. He has enough money now to buy house and land outright in a first world country and plans on emigrating with his family.)


Good for him ! 



> Practically every man I've known beyond superficial relationship has stories of women treating them rudely when they tried to initiate courtship verbally or non verbally.


AND??? I can say the same for women too. Have you even read the part where I wrote about the man almost coming into my bedroom to rape me ? Did you read it ??? Do you think that is just "rude" or that is a "nutcase behaviour" ??? 



> Is your suggestion that my friend and I should avoid public places to avoid rudeness?
> Is your suggestion that men should avoid initiating courtship with women to avoid rudeness?


I have no idea what chip is on your shoulder, but I try to lead a happy life myself. I go and do what I like and I enjoy myself. If I am happy then maybe I will smile at people, but that is no resemblence necessarily because of others. Also, I pride myself that I do not lead people on, as some people do. When a person is looking for a mate, their whole worldview is actually all about that. Most people live and express themselves as their life unfold. For me, I am a little bit more self preserved, and actually act accordingly to my social environment. Sometimes, I would live the way I express and going through my life, but one thing I know and learn from experience is that, should I put my anger onto others which I feel inside? Since they have not done very much to harm me. The answer is "no". 

- My suggestion to you is that, in order to get women, you should get rid of this hatred that you have inside of you for them. Number 1. 

- Number 2, stop posting threads like this, and really read and understand the views that others are giving and see why they say what they do too. Cos then you will understand the world around you. 

- 3, go and do activities which you enjoy most. Cos if you are smiling, then you will attract women. Simple. Why go to a bar, and you keep saying that your friend has social anxiety. So a man with social anxiety, is intimidated by his immediate environment, goes to a bar, with possibly an angry or a nervous face on his expression, hope to try and date women inside that bar ? I do not think it works that way. lol.... First off, the women will see your expression as one that is not friendly and will walk away. It is that simple. To me, I assess and judge the atmosphere of a place, and I either go or do not go as I wish, pending on my mood. If a place feels hostile, I leave. Simple.


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

There are plenty of nice girls out there, if you care to look. As the guy with the Alucard avy said (wisely), those who rage about the other gender, usually are systemically attracted to people who are bad for them, while ignoring people who'd actually make a reasonable mate for whatever psychological/instinctual reasoning, and then rage against the entire gender, the bad (that they're attracted to) and the good (that they ignore). 



ghostly said:


> You wanna know an interesting inequity about heterosexual dating that works to one gender's disadvantage? Women are vastly more likely than men to get raped, beaten, and killed by their partners. Excuse me if I'm not shedding any tears for you because _you guys have to propose _and then blame women for your misogyny.


Lol, classic establishment of victimhood = worthy victim/unworthy victim dichotomy. That one's a classic.


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## Crimson Ash (May 16, 2012)

@FallingSlowly

I can agree with you on that. My point with the last two paragraphs (albeit hastily written so as to not be misunderstood) was merely to point out that we shouldn't be so quick to disregard a point and put forth our own perspective on it and not even acknowledging the other point as a possibility. 

But yes for it to truly work both sides have to collectively discuss their own perspectives but that it near impossible if some want to take the higher ground in any matter as it only further increases the distance and connection between each other and coming to solutions in that state is almost impossible. 



> If we actually want true change then both perspectives need to be accepted and understood by both parties, having one side not accepted and understood is the root cause for all this conflict.


I was also speaking with regard to this thread in particular. That is to say since it is directed at a certain audience and a certain perspective it was asking for input in that regard. For the audience that has no experience in such matters it is not fair for them to discredit anything that they have no experience in. At the same time it is not right to judge it to be false as well. 

They are certainly welcome to give there opinion on the matter but to completely discredit it just because they can't agree with it or that it doesn't agree with their life experiences is another matter altogether.

Anyway the bottom line is there are good and there are bad men and women in the world. Defending an entire gender is not possible. That being said there are some really great men and women that are often overlooked or disregarded because of the influence of the average stereotypes.

There are always going to be men just looking for sex. But there are also men who are looking for something more. In that same way there are women who are also only looking for sex and there are some women who are looking for something more as well.



> *3) The inequities of dating contribute to resentment and misogyny*
> I can understand that to a certain extent if the experiences have been overwhelmingly negative, but overall, I can only say: Thoughts are only that. Thoughts. They only have power over you if you let them. You can resent society and its dynamics, but you should give each individual a chance.


I would have to disagree with you here though. Its all well and good to say that they are just thoughts and yes they don't have power over us if we let them. But not everyone is so resilient and not everyone has the power to endure so much. In a average heterosexual males position if he lives life going through a large amount of social rejection, that is common place in an average dating environment especially if the man is of moderate physical attractiveness and lower than average social standing. He is more than likely to develop a negative if not solid resentment of women. And the root cause of all this? the way he has been treated by them.

People might want to dance around issues like this but that is the bottom line. The way we treat members of the opposite gender is one of the biggest reasons why problems like this exist.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

OrangeAppled said:


> This touches on the hypocrisy of the OP.... misogyny is justified because of some bad experiences in dating, and then the person seeks out information (hardly real scientific data) to support his feelings. Yet, if women have bad experiences with men sexually harassing them, objectifying them, using them, cheating on them, etc, they should NOT allow this to make them cautious & less open with other men they meet.


It would only be hypocrisy if I was justifying their misogynisitic sentiment. I neither advocate misogynistic sentiment (hence why I said this was going to be my last thread) nor do I advocate female hypervigilance.

You are also under the mistaken impression that I believe that men and women consciously become misogynistic or hypervigilant, I don't. I believe it's largely due to impressions upon the unconscious, and they way we innately try to protect ourselves from threats.

I don't subscribe to the folk psychology view that the conscious is in primary control of consciousness, just to be clear.



> The problem with the OP is not taking responsibility for his own experience. It's easier to make it a social problem & a problem with women than to examine yourself & why YOU are producing negative results in your efforts.


Why are you people incapable of criticisizing ideas without psychologizing?

If I want to explore personal problems in dating I'd talk with people in my personal life, but I want to discuss the social environment of dating so I brought it to a public forum. Why is that difficult to understand?



> This is not "common" & your asserting it is does not make it so; this is simply your perception & no doubt you will focus on whatever affirms your existing feelings. I see the exact opposite _frequently, where women are far more compassionate towards men with dating problems than their fellow men are with them. I visit other relationship forums & it's the female posters giving the most thoughtful, empathetic responses to men divulging their dating problems & seeking advice.
> _


_

You and I draw from different experiences. I could just as easily accuse you of the confirmation bias that you are accusing me of. But of course I'm wrong and you are right.

Look at the responses from women in this thread, *even your own response* began with a passive aggressive jab (if you were sincere you would have made a remark like that in PM) that I'm blaming society for personal problems. It's exactly the same insult, just in sanctimonious wording.




And I've seen you openly say that "women don't know what they want" in dating, so what advice or compassion could we offer that you would not mistrust anyway?

Click to expand...

Sigh... I'll quote my own OP...

*"I won't lie, it's been really fun being an asshole, but my conscience is bothering me (ie. I've engaged in shaming the female demographic, and there are people taking my quasi-misogynistic perspective on women and dating seriously) and so it's time to stop. 

In this thread (and probably my last) I'll try to present the serious points that I was implicitly making for you to ponder or dismiss;"

(PerC fucked up, can't quote properly anymore)*_*

I get the sense that the OP almost wants to convince everyone his experiences reflect all of reality so as to get people to change to his preferred style of dating & mating. This is such an introvert ego that it's hilarious; the world is not going to adapt for you. The world may adapt to noble & innovative ideas that relate to actual truths of human nature, but not merely for your hurt feelings & convenience.*
*
Sigh... More psychologozing and shaming.
*


> These things are not shocking because they are not as rare as you'd like to think. Again, you're trying to universalize your experience to explain why you're not one of those men who get hit on.


#

Again you are psychologizing, and you're not as astute at assessing people's experiences based on forum posts as you think you are... 

I've been approached by and dated women who have initiate courtship. 

And you've misunderstood my point. It wasn't just about being approached, it was the volume. Noone man or woman sleeps or gets in a relationship with anyone, however even if a woman never approaches a man they will probably encounter eligible mates from amongst those who approach them due to the volume. A man doesn't have that value that makes meeting a suitable mate probable.

Do you agree?


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Arclight said:


> I assure you my intention is still the same even if I don't resort to more crude caveman like statements of assertion. Read between the lines and you will see I am not so passive aggressive.


Lol having to read 'between the lines' means you are being passive aggressive.

From wiki;

*Passive-aggressive behavior is behavior that expresses aggression in an indirect, passive way. This includes procrastination, hostile jokes (though jokes in general are recognized as a method of expressing veiled hostility), stubbornness, resentment, sullenness, or deliberate/repeated failure to accomplish requested tasks for which one is (often explicitly) responsible.*



> I know you think you are pretty clever.. and maybe you are.. But is your cleverness efficient?
> Obviously you are not so efficient with the ladies.
> Me personally, I am thankful guys like you exist.


Again why are you being so passive aggressive? 



> You ask for possible solutions.. Try being more efficient.


That's it? That's your entire contribution to the discussion?

Nothing more nuanced? Nothing about examining the social enviroment? Gender roles? 

Is that generally the level of depth of your inquiry?



> And try not to be a parody of a parody.. Blake could back his shit up.. You can't.


Lol lame.


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

strangestdude said:


> Why are you people incapable of *criticisizing ideas without psychologizing?*
> 
> If I want to explore personal problems in dating I'd talk with people in my personal life, but I want to discuss the social environment of dating so I brought it to a public forum. Why is that difficult to understand?


Because then it means that you are a man who talk the talk, and not ever walk the walk.
If you want to theorise life, and theorise anything socially, one would think you would be an academic, inside a university, and not posting online, on an internet forum, kicking up a fuss, and blowing things out of proportion. Cos that is the social structure, and you seem to want to NOT accept that. 

Even if I do not accept part of the world around me, I would not like yourself, try and degrade the world around you though, and drag everyone down onto your level to make them accept your viewpoint. 

I am a woman. I read what you wrote about hatred of women. I am done.
I do not need to entertain you so much more. Cos you seem to be acting in a douche way, and then expect sympathy. It does not work that way. Sympathy is only given if one has tried something really hard but still do not get it. Or that one has been dealt a dark blow, which most men or women thinks is unjust. But for you, you are not doing any of this, but is actually dramatising a lot more, and then drag others to try to change your views and perception, only for you not to accept their views, nor acknowledge them, and you continue to be more douchy...

Well ! ... 

You come across as someone who is kind of lost in his own life. It is okay, everyone does go through it. But most do come out of it. See article. To me, you seem like you are wasting your own dating life away by serial dating etc... and getting disillusioned in the process of it. 

Brad Pitt reveals he was 'wasting' his life away while married to Jennifer Aniston | Mail Online 

But hey, it is so much simpler to rant than it is to do something about it. Isn't it ?


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

@_FallingSlowly_

That was a great contribution, thank you.



> Now, I am/was in the somewhat "lucky" position that I was regarded as "mating potential" by a lot of guys because I am reasonably attractive, so I hear the "you can only understand it if you're ugly" (although wording it like that is a very fine line to walk imo).


I understand where you are coming from that's why I wrote;



> culturally unattractive (ie. ugly) women


To give the impression that I was of the opinion that culturally they may be deemed unattractive, or the majority of the population wouldn't find them attractive, that's the context in which I was using the term ugly.

_(I've been with women where people told me was ugly, and I've been out with people who people told me how attractive they were. Either way I didn't care, the only person's opinion about their attractiveness that matters is mine.)_

And the reason what prompted me to say that is I remember reading a reddit post (that was either based on personal experience, or the poster was a damn good fiction writer) where a woman was writing in the first person about how hard it is to be an ugly woman. I found it, and the responses from other 'ugly' women, heartbreaking.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Bago said:


> If you want to theorise life, and theorise anything socially, one would think you would be an academic, inside a university, and not posting online, on an internet forum, kicking up a fuss, and blowing things out of proportion.


So you're against intellectual curiosity, and personal enquiry.

I disagree, I value those traits in myself and others. Regardless if someone can afford, or wants to go to university or not.

Are you against anyone pursing counter perspectives and theorizing outside of an academic setting?



> I am a woman. I read what you wrote about hatred of women. I am done.


Please don't hide behind your gender.

Norah Vincent is a woman and emphatizes with men, other female posters can emphatize, and attempt to understand what I'm writing about. Empathizing and understanding isn't agreeing.



> Cos you seem to be acting in a douche way, and then expect sympathy. It does not work that way. Sympathy is only given if one has tried something really hard but still do not get it.


No again you are psychologizing.

I've repeated asked you to address the perspective of the OP, not to theorize about my psychology. I'm not asking for sympathy, just for you to contribute to discussion with something other than passive aggressive comments. But you are incapable of that.



> You come across as someone who is kind of lost in his own life. It is okay, everyone does go through it. But most do come out of it. See article. To me, you seem like you are wasting your own dating life away by serial dating etc... and getting disillusioned in the process of it.


More passive aggression and psychologizing.

I'm repeating this again, because I want to show that you aren't as astute as assessing people's probable experiences from forum posts. I've only began putting myself 'out there' since last week, and I've only initiated contact with one woman because I'm selective. My interest is largely based in intellectual curiosity (as I already explained in a previous post to lycanized, which I'm guessing you ignored or thought I was lying). 

You are simply wrong about your assessment of me being a 'serial dater', but I doubt you will accept that.

Please google the term; ad hominem.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

You know, the constant theme I see running through this thread is women bitching that "men are like this" and men bitching that "women are like that." Both sides never taking the time to realize that macro views of genders are inapplicable to an individuals experience and the people they will encounter.

No, not all men are waiting for their opportunity to rape you, use your pussy and toss you aside when they're done with you. No, not all women are cold bitches when they're hot and loud, and not all quiet girls are sweet and innocent.

It wouldn't matter if people here were just talking about sex--which most of the time is a mad dash to whatever you can convince someone into offering you--but people are bitching about this in the realm of dating. If you're so concerned with finding someone you want as a person (the entire package) why don't you, I don't know, get to know the person before getting involved with them? Is it really so difficult to ignore someone's dick or their tits and focus on the person?

And yes, you're welcome for all of that profanity so early in the morning.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Stelliferous said:


> Yeah I can see why men would begin to hate women based on how the typical routine goes. But that is an unhealthy response to deal with reality. Gandhi said that anger poisons yourself more than anything. So does hating women. Hating women makes your life _worse. _Women don't owe you anything either so if they reject you it's no problem. Deal with it. Don't hate them for it.


and this is why I don't hate people. I really couldn't care less about them, but hating them is only going to hurt *me* and that's one person I care a lot about :wink:

that's not to say I don't dislike people, that I won't experience strong episodes of seething resentment or that I won't enjoy getting revenge (more for the sake of feeling like a bad ass or perhaps making an example of someone than because I feel like I actually need to), but no one is worth destroying my own peace of mind for.


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

@strangestdude, I do have issues with some of your statements, but you sure know how to stir it up and we keep coming back for more! :laughing:

I have learned a few things from reading through your threads, such as how common & hurtful shaming of men is and, now latest, how some women seem to think that it is all right to be rude to men (that pisses me off, btw). With age I have also come to understand how truly clueless I was back when I was single - I seriously never understood when guys hit on me (INTJ, say no more) in a less than aggressive way and I can see how some of them must have felt frustrated about getting a 'no' that actually was more of a 'huh?' from my side.
Either way, as I see it, the more I know, the more I am aware, the more I can grow as a person and that hopefully translates into benefiting my surroundings too.

I believe that experiences can be interpreted/impact us very differently depending on who we are as a person. Your truth may not be my truth, but it doesn't change the fact that it is still your truth.


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

Nvr mind. Walking away.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Bago said:


> Actually, I do not find her response to you as "rude".


Then that tells me alot about social etiquette. The majority of people I encounter would consider that rude behavior.



> I have never had women walk past me and giggle as you so said. The only thing which comes to mind is if they possibly fancy you and giggle out of nervousness, but of course, you would not possibly accept that as a statement or a fact.


Most people wouldn't recognize from my description and matching it to their past experiences that it was a giggle of derision, and not nervousness. 

And I have enough experience social intelligence to conclude that was derision.

Maybe you've misinterpreted the OP as an attack on women? 
But of course, you would not possibly accept that as a statement or a fact. :happy:



> Why go to a bar, and you keep saying that your friend has social anxiety. So a man with social anxiety, is intimidated by his immediate environment, goes to a bar, with possibly an angry or a nervous face on his expression, hope to try and date women inside that bar ? I do not think it works that way.


Lmao you didn't even properly read the stories! You've advise above isn't useful because it's not based on anything that I've written.

You've mixed stories, and have confused what I've written lol.

Perhaps that explains why you've grossly misinterpreted everything that I've written... You don't read it properly.


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

repeat


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

strangestdude said:


> ....
> 
> Perhaps that explains why you've grossly misinterpreted everything that I've written... You don't read it properly.


Really ? 
I think you've misinterpreted the world based on your narrowed views and feelings, but that's just my internet opinion.

Sorry, I do not have your brain, and nor are you respectable to others and their opinions. So... touche ! 



> Then that tells me alot about social etiquette. The majority of people I encounter would consider that rude behavior.


Do you want to know what is rude? I find your whole thread sickening AND rude.
It scares me to think that this is how men thinks. AND that I have to lap it up, and allow you to enforce YOUR expectation on ME, on how I respond to YOUR thread. 

It really scares me to find that guys are so petty and can hold inner aggressiveness just cos you said a simple "no" to them, and then they will hold you with contempt on that, and one day burst out loud and passive aggressively burst onto you, and you do not even know what is happening. There is a term for this, "emotional abuse".

I'm sorry, I do not wish to participate any further.
I realised that I was indeed emotionally manipulated quite a bit, unbeknown to myself. I felt my anger level increased dramatically from last night til now... and your thread seems to say that you want sympathy, but you also hold no sympathy toward others too. 

I really wouldn't date men like yourself either... Seriously. No.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Swede said:


> @_strangestdude_, I do have issues with some of your statements, but you sure know how to stir it up and we keep coming back for more! :laughing:


:tongue: I suppose it's because I enjoy pointing out sanctimony, I usually can't let an opportunity to fuck with self righteous people go.

But I was hoping this thread would create insightful and challenging perspectives. It's just basically been psychologizing lol.



> I have learned a few things from reading through your threads, such as how common & hurtful shaming of men is and, now latest, how some women seem to think that it is all right to be rude to men (that pisses me off, btw).


I'm glad you were able to gain something from my threads. Thanks for letting me know. :happy:


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## Paradox1987 (Oct 9, 2010)

OK, I'll bite.



strangestdude said:


> 1) *There are inequities within modern hetero dating, where generally men are at a disadvantage.*
> 
> Men are (online and IRL) overwhelmingly the primary initiators of dating and marriage proposals, and as a consequence women are the primary selectors. This logistically puts women in an advantageous position.


Inequities exist in *everything*, so why exactly should dating be some utopian paradise sans inequalities? Anyhow, female sexual selection is a very powerful thing, does the fact that they have sexual selection upset you? If so, read books like "A Natural History of Rape", they do away with female sexual selection to theorise about coercive sexual strategies. Anyhow, this statement is a chicken and egg argument. If men pick who they're going to propose to (unless you propose to every woman you see), then the initial selection process is done by the male. In firms, they call this short-listing. It's how you narrow down pools of candidates to find the best fit. Ultimately, once you offer the candidate the job, they still have to accept. This is the basis of all contract law:

Offer - Acceptance - Consideration. So to say that woman are the ultimate selectors is bogus. Men offer, women accept or reject. It's symbiotic rather than trumped. 



> In a nutshell the way things are; If the average woman never initiated a dating proposal for the rest of her life she would still have available potential mates. Whereas if the average man never initiated a dating proposal for the rest of their lives, they'd probably die alone and virgins.
> 
> (And yet many women wonder why men can get 'creepy' persistent with dating requests)


Perhaps because of societal constraints amongst both men and women preventing women from appearing too 'forward'. Anyhow, what's the point of this other than to inform us that if you don't ask, you don't get? This is the nature of many enterprises, not just dating.



> 2) *Men discussing or complaining about the inequities and double standards of hetero dating are ignored or insulted.*
> 
> A common retort from women when men complain is something along the lines of;
> 
> ...


If this is the response you get, you need to start finding yourself better company. Men or women irrespective. If you wish to play the game of gender essentialism, it cuts both ways.

Complaints need to be assessed on merit, if the argument is no-one is dating me, what is the reason that they should? Answer that first, pre-empt their moves. Dating is as much strategy as it is anything else. Before a trial, a lawyer will plan their theory and think about where the other side is coming from. Try it. 



> To women who make those kind of insults please remember that dating, sex and relationships aren't trivial subjects. Practically everyone looks for sex and/or companionship, and when people have a happy companionship they live longer and report a greater satisfaction with life than single people.


"Date me so I live longer" is not a reason to date someone. "Date me because I need sex" is also not a reason to do so. "Date me because I am an interesting person with x, y and z interests. I want specifically you to date me because you have traits a, b and c. Together, I believe we would be happy and compatible" is a finding the right tracks.



> As we all know new human beings are produced as a result of couplings. And dating experiences and relationships can leave people traumatized or with pleasant memories for the rest of their lives, and they can have a profound on traits and behavior. (Ask anyone who has gone through a really bad breakup, and is either traumatized by it or found a way to be resilient and learn from it.)
> 
> So let's not pretend that dating and relationships are a trivial subject, with no great personal or social implications.


Agreed.



> 3) *The inequities of dating contribute to resentment and misogyny*
> 
> Most women simply reply with "You shouldn't be bitter/resentful" when men bring up the inequities of dating and how it's made them bitter/resentful. I think they probably don't understand that the social environment of modern dating contributes towards male bitterness and/or misogynistic sentiments. I'm not saying it's not the man's responsibility to process those sentiments, but I'm am saying that the social environment facilitates those sentiments - unfortunately commonly, if temporarily.


Let's say that your friend is incredibly rich, and you are not. Let us now say that due to success in studies and his career, he is progressing up and up the social and professional ladder, and that you either were not so brilliant or did not have the motivation to be that successful. If you become bitter towards your friend and start blaming the social inequalities that are always hindering you but helping him for your state of affairs, would you condone it? Would you think it wise? 

Since society is based on hierarchy, and hierarchy brings inequalities. Inequalities can be used in a way that all benefit (Rawls: A theory of Justice (for critique see: Sen "The Idea of Justice)), or used as tools to call the oppressed to arms. Either way, if your revolution succeeds, you will replace the existing hegemony with a new hegemony. You can either manipulate systems to your advantage, or you can bitterly complain about the system. Societal outcomes can easily breed all sorts of resentments, but what is it that you hope to achieve by harbouring those resentments?




> In a book called Self-Made man by Norah Vincent she goes undercover for a year disguised as a man. I'll present some excerpts from her reflection on time courting and dating as a man. She eloquently describes how the dynamics of hetero dating contribute to bitterness, resentment and misogyny amongst men;


LOL. I find it distasteful when (wo)men engage in lazy thinking. Congratulations, you read the works of a radical feminist, but did you think about what you had read? I mean, any (wo)man who reads e.g. MacKinnon and starts to say that all men are dangerous is a scholar-manque. It's akin to my reading Marx and Engels and concluding that all people who are bourgeoisie are evil, or that all people from the UK are colonisers etc etc etc. It's ridiculous. So whilst I get what she's saying, what I take away is:



> I'd read the textbooks of radical feminism, and following their lead, I thought all males were tainted by the patriarchy. For years thereafter, every guy I met was on probation.


 - this is a prime example of lazy thinking. 




> IMO and IME the only group of women who can empathize from experience about the resentment and bitterness that the challenges of dating can create in men are culturally unattractive (ie. ugly) women. The have to exert as much effort, and have to deal with as much indifference and hostility as the average man.


I see limited point in celebrating resentment and bitterness. What would it achieve?


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## Bago (Aug 30, 2011)

Let me write this clearly so that it is understood...
This is a thread which hated on women, and then the topic of rape are brought into view, and nobody actually gives a consideration, and the guys who seems to want some kind of glory or whatever still continually talk of such topics as if this is okay to do so ?

I seriously want admin to intervene at this stage of the process. Cos it is sickening.
I had to take a step back and re-read everything else here. It is sickening also because I can see that it is not just myself, but other females who are also fighting the OP too, and actually gets drawn into these kind of sick talk. Under the topic of "debates" and "theories"... when really, we are just pampering the whims of one single individual. 

It does not promote harmony in a social context for sure.
This is the first time I entered this subforum and I can see how sickening some topics are !


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Bago said:


> Really ?
> I think you've misinterpreted the world based on your narrowed views and feelings, but that's just my internet opinion.


I like that you are passionate, and have a such a strong moral compass even if I disagree with you (seriously). 

Yeah that's the problem with the internet. There are characters who I would love to speak to IRL to see what they are really like

I personally believe that text based communication naturally emphasizes certain aspects of our personalities, and diminishes others. And the more sensory experiences that are involved in an interaction the more 'full' the interaction is.

Which brings me on to this point...



> I really wouldn't date men like yourself either... Seriously. No.


That's a shame, I think we'd have some long passionate debates into the night. :wink:



> It really scares me to find that guys are so petty and can hold inner aggressiveness just cos you said a simple "no" to them, and then they will hold you with contempt on that, and one day burst out loud and passive aggressively burst onto you, and you do not even know what is happening. There is a term for this, "emotional abuse".


It's not simply based on "no", and it's not all men. (Perhaps some facetiousness unwittingly crept into the OP  )

It's the social dynamics of dating that contributes to (but doesn't cause) misogyny. I thought my strongest case for that was the quotes from Norah Vincent who was a woman, who developed an irrational dislike for women that she attributes to the hetero dating scene.

Please re-read the quotes from her in the OP.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Bago said:


> and your thread seems to say that you want sympathy, but you also hold no sympathy toward others too.


No. I just wanted to focus the discussion on the inequities that men face as a final thread.

I also want to make this clear and I should have added this to the OP;
*
I'm not solely blaming women for this state of affairs.

*1) Like a favorite thinker of mine Richard Grannon said; words and images affect emotions and behavior, and as a result media consumption IMO plays a large role in shaping emotions and behavior. 

2) Another large part of the problem it seems is that both men and women don't value men's effort in courtship, as their primary roles as initiators or dating and marriage proposals.

_A positive example; there are some women who do. I've been on a dating website and saw a profile where a woman wrote in bold, something like; *"Please forgive me if I don't get back to you. I get alot of messages, and it's not practical for me to take the time to reply to them. But thanks for taking the time to view my profile and message me."* Now that is a woman who values men's effort. _

3) I also think that talking about this phenomenon can help change things, but to understand why I think that you've have to understand my belief how I think prejudiced forms.

Basically my belief (informed by evolutionary psychology and David Berceli) for what primarily creates prejudice is that we are social mammals and have an unconscious survival 'mechanism'. This unconscious survival mechanism tries to predict and protect us from threats. And so if we have a traumatic or a succession of traumatic experiences, our unconscious can go from assigning blame and future threat to the individual perpetrators, to the demographic that the perpetrators belong to. (A demographic can be sensory or conceptually based eg. skin color, nationality, religion, etc.) We evolved in a tribal context, and we tend to think in 'tribes/groups' and as a result the us and them mentality, and assigning unwarranted collective responsibility is part of the human condition.

Someone thanked me for presenting my perspective on what I think creates prejudice elsewhere and I'll post my response;

_*Glad you appreciated it. I think understanding can lead to compassionate responses to ourselves and others. I think if it's simply demonized by the PC﻿ movement, the more it leads to people who are afraid to be honest about how they feel towards certain demographics. And although it can suppress harmful memes, it can lead to passive-aggressive hostility, and mounting resentment. IMO It's better to share the experiences, and work on processing the trauma and recognizing common humanity.
*_
So I can understand why some women develop hyper vigilance and hostility from experience in courtship and dating, and I can understand why some men develop misogyny from experiences in courtship and dating. I have empathy for both demographics in hetero dating, but IMO men's problems are taking less seriously by both men and women (ie. Quit whining you single basement dweller) So I wanted to focus on the problems affecting the male demographic.

There are problems unique to both demographics in the hetero dating scene, but being a man I've only directly experienced the problems related to the male demographic, and it would feel inauthentic to talk about the problems affecting women. If a woman wants to present a counter perspective, then please do so.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

@Paradox1987

Regarding 'lazy thinking' I don't think prejudice forms simply as a result of 'lazy thinking'. Please see my reply to Bago above.


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

android654 said:


> You know, the constant theme I see running through this thread is women bitching that "men are like this" and men bitching that "women are like that." Both sides never taking the time to realize that macro views of genders are inapplicable to an individuals experience and the people they will encounter.
> 
> No, not all men are waiting for their opportunity to rape you, use your pussy and toss you aside when they're done with you. No, not all women are cold bitches when they're hot and loud, and not all quiet girls are sweet and innocent.
> 
> ...


This post gladdens me.


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## FallingSlowly (Jul 1, 2013)

UtterMess said:


> I would have to disagree with you here though. Its all well and good to say that they are just thoughts and yes they don't have power over us if we let them. But not everyone is so resilient and not everyone has the power to endure so much. In a average heterosexual males position if he lives life going through a large amount of social rejection, that is common place in an average dating environment especially if the man is of moderate physical attractiveness and lower than average social standing. He is more than likely to develop a negative if not solid resentment of women. And the root cause of all this? the way he has been treated by them.
> 
> *People might want to dance around issues like this but that is the bottom line. The way we treat members of the opposite gender is one of the biggest reasons why problems like this exist.*


We're actually on the same page here. The question is:

What do you suggest?

I might sound a bit fatalistic here (and overall, I'm really not), but I don't see how we change anything by theorising - the only way to bring about change is to change _yourself_ (or not, depends on how you're already set up), _your_ attitude, _your_ behaviour. I cannot change the bitches out there, or the female population as a whole. I cannot change the dick-controlled alpha-males, or the male population as a whole. But I can change how I treat people, and also how I respond to them. I can actively decide to let them get to me, or I can seek out company that is good for me.

And this, I'm not saying from some detached angle. I won't go into details however, because ultimately, it's not about me and my former problems.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

Paradox1987 said:


> "Date me so I live longer" is not a reason to date someone. "Date me because I need sex" is also not a reason to do so. "Date me because I am an interesting person with x, y and z interests. I want specifically you to date me because you have traits a, b and c. Together, I believe we would be happy and compatible" is a finding the right tracks.


Could just be me, but I don't even believe in looking at it in that way. Why do I have to make a case for you to want me? Instead, why don't I take the time to consider whether or not you're worth the time, effort and strain involved in getting involved with someone? I think if everyone asked that question of other people rather than make a case for why they're perfect for each other, you'd find less people obsessed with entering doomed-from-the-beginning relationships and resorting to these ad populum dissections of genders to figure out a formula to make someone love them.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

.


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## nujabes (May 18, 2012)

so... clearly 90% of the posters in this thread didn't read the OP.

Sad.


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## Crimson Ash (May 16, 2012)

FallingSlowly said:


> We're actually on the same page here. The question is:
> 
> What do you suggest?
> 
> ...


I completely agree, and yes the best thing for those of us who do understand is to be an example unto others. 

But it is also quite surprising to note the amount of men and women who don't understand the proper do's and don'ts when it comes to relationships. That is to say they are more or less either influenced by their peers or by the media or by a collection of both.

Ultimately though, I'm quite sure we are not in any position to point this out to a large number of people but my one true hope is that through discussion even with a smaller audience like this forum for instance, that some of the valid points are properly understood and accepted.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

strangestdude said:


> .


Awww... Why'd you change your mind? I'm curious in what you wanted to say.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

FallingSlowly said:


> I might sound a bit fatalistic here (and overall, I'm really not), but I don't see how we change anything by theorising - the only way to bring about change is to change _yourself_ (or not, depends on how you're already set up), _your_ attitude, _your_ behaviour. I cannot change the bitches out there, or the female population as a whole. I cannot change the dick-controlled alpha-males, or the male population as a whole. But I can change how I treat people, and also how I respond to them. I can actively decide to let them get to me, or I can seek out company that is good for me..


I like you. :happy: Thanks for bring up the topic of solutions.

I agree, theorizing alone about solutions probably can't change anything, but it can help understand the problem IMO and can create useful memes (not the pics, Dawkin's memes). (I do intrinsically love theorizing however, being an N). I was hoping to get more 'solutions' from people, but I think that's a lost cause lol. 

FWIW my 'be the change you want to see' solutions for men;

1) For men value our effort. Value our time, energy and money, and if a woman doesn't respect, appreciate and/or reciprocate your effort then 'next' her. Indirectly rewarding disrespectful, unappreciative or non-reciprocal women by continued attention doesn't serve you, or your fellow broskis who later have to deal with a woman with a sense of entitlement. 

2) Stay away from emotionally damaged women who aren't involved in some form of self help, medication and/or therapy, because they are the ones most likely to project past negative experiences on to you and treat you accordingly. Meaning; Passive aggression, irrational jealousy, equating positive or negative attention with love, 'games', etc. We are all 'damaged' but if someone isn't doing anything to try to heal 'wounds', then the traits and behavior are unlikely to change.

(This is one I honestly hoped someone else would bring up.)

3) Remember our community humanity. Because although there are differences - whether primarily genetic or cultural - we share the same human condition and human experience. And remembering our common humanity, and the vulnerabilities of the human condition leads to empathy, and can lessen prejudice ie. misogyny.


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## Paradox1987 (Oct 9, 2010)

strangestdude said:


> Regarding 'lazy thinking' I don't think prejudice forms simply as a result of 'lazy thinking'. Please see my reply to Bago above.


I don't believe that prejudices *form* because of lazy thinking. I believe they are *perpetuated* as a result of lazy thinking.



android654 said:


> Could just be me, but I don't even believe in looking at it in that way. Why do I have to make a case for you to want me? Instead, why don't I take the time to consider whether or not you're worth the time, effort and strain involved in getting involved with someone? I think if everyone asked that question of other people rather than make a case for why they're perfect for each other, you'd find less people obsessed with entering doomed-from-the-beginning relationships and resorting to these ad populum dissections of genders to figure out a formula to make someone love them.


I get what you mean, but often times, I like to ask what I can do for my relations(hips), rather than expecting them to do things for me. That's just my approach though, and it's not to say that I don't assess my partners too, as they need to bring something to the table too, but I tend to focus more on improving myself, and having a decent idea as to what I'm looking for a partner to bring to my table.

I personally believe that if you haven't already assessed your partner for being worth the time before you make your case for being with them, then you may as well play relationship-roulette, a game I never acquired a taste for. So I agree with you; but I also believe that when push comes to shove, you need to be able to make your own case on solid grounds, but that is just me.


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## FallingSlowly (Jul 1, 2013)

strangestdude said:


> _(I've been with women where people told me was ugly, and I've been out with people who people told me how attractive they were. *Either way I didn't care, the only person's opinion about their attractiveness that matters is mine.*)_
> 
> And the reason what prompted me to say that is I remember reading a reddit post (that was either based on personal experience, or the poster was a damn good fiction writer) where a woman was writing in the first person about how hard it is to be an ugly woman. I found it, and the responses from other 'ugly' women, heartbreaking.


I'm with you on that one, and that's exactly the point, but also what it boils down to in the negative sense: We cannot blame the subjects (I could call them objects of course ) of our attraction for not being attracted in return. As much as I understand the pain of being knocked back again and again, the individual has no fault in this. The only mistake they can possibly make is being disrespectful and mean, and there is no excuse for that.

And as for the "ugly": I understood your point actually. Probably more than people might think, because despite looking and feeling the way I do now, this hasn't always been the case. So okay then, self-disclosure: I was actually a real "late bloomer": I was taller than most guys until I was 16 or so. I had something about me that teenage boys, and some girls btw, obviously found me worth bullying for (or shall I say: I was lacking something, namely stereotypical "16-year-old-girl-looks"). I assure you, that made me feel very ugly at that point, it might even have sparked a phase of social anxiety I went through. That's by no means as severe as some of the cases you mentioned, it's also not comparable to dating for years on end without success. I came out alright at the other end so to speak. Finally having developed into someone who seems to be visually appealing to the opposite sex certainly didn't hurt, but it didn't make the self-confidence issues go away, because that damage was already done. That's something I had to work on without mother nature helping me out. So I guess that made me one of your emotionally damaged women the male population should "next", but I still like you back 

Maybe that's one of the reasons why I would never knowingly behave in a way that's humiliating to someone. If I ever did it by accident, I would actually be quite stressed about it, because I actually _know_ what it feels like. I am very honest, I don't instil hope in a guy when there's none, but I always try to do it in a respectful way.

On the subject of attractiveness: I am brutally honest again. I have a "blueprint" I find physically attractive. And it _does_ matter if you meet someone for the first time. It's the look that catches your attention or makes you turn your head. In my case: Noticeably taller than me (I'm 5'10, so that usually gets you into 6'+ territory) and dark. Also certain facial features and build. I _notice_ these guys, end of. Does that mean however I'm slave to that? No. All my longterm-partner has in common with my "physical match" is that he's 6'1 

So you might _consider_ a potential mate purely on looks, because he/she gets your attention in the first place. If that's where it ends however, you set yourself up for failure. That's what some women do, that's what some men do. However, that's also what a lot of men and women _don't_ do, but that sort of brings me to the dating environment...

Adds nothing really, just had to get that off my chest


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