# Big picture discussion: What would you change in today's society?



## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

This is a thread dedicated to the establishment of a great big picture think tank! 

So here is how it goes: Name what you would want to fix/change/improve in today's society/world and how you would plan on achieving that. What do you think needs to be done in order to make it a reality?

Do you see any faults in the way we live? What disturbs you the most ?

Topics: Direction of society, increase in reliance on government, loss of self sufficiency, global consumer culture and artisan/local produce movements, loss of identity and culture, tech leading to loneliness and an antisocial society, feel free to introduce whatever serious topic you want and to address previously introduced topics.

If you have a certain criticism over a previously introduced topic, please do it constructively. No ridiculing of any idea, this is a place to get inspiration from others and to discuss possibilities.


----------



## quesadillaftw (Nov 21, 2018)

I don't know what to do about it, but it bothers me that a lot of influencers these days suck, and younger generations actually aspire to be like them in some way (not all the young people, but a lot). I don't want society to be more fucked up but tbh I don't know what to do about it. Guess we need more good influencers


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

Influencers should encapsulate their messages to make points clear and hold attention. They should interact with the internet community. Wealthy influencers should go beyond charity and invest in long term solutions.


----------



## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

There are long term solutions that could be applied through the people, it's a though like this that gives influencers their power. Change comes from the ground up, one way of changing the power dynamic that would give people more freedom an self reliance is Permaculture. Which is, as it's co-founder sums it: 

"A consciously designed landscapes which mimic the patterns and relationships found in nature, while yielding an abundance of food, fiber and energy for provision of local needs. People, their buildings and the ways in which they organize themselves are central to permaculture. Thus the permaculture vision of permanent or sustainable agriculture has evolved to one of permanent or sustainable culture."

Why would this be a good idea? 
Earth's resources are running low and we're currently in the world's sixth extinction event as far as biodiversity goes. Ongoing monocrop cultivation of the land is causing desertification. We moved the agricultural system that desertified the "fertile crescent" into a global scale. Farmers in search for more space for livestock and palm oil plantations are destroying the rainforest. A banana shipped from Puerto Rico takes more energy to get in your fridge than the energy you need to power your fridge for a whole year, and we? We're just taking whatever the supermarkets can offer us, without checking what the effects of our consumption is. 

Obesity and compulsive eating come mainly from the fact that our bodies are seeking nutrients that are more and more scarce in our food, as the soil's natural fertility depletes with cultivation, so do the nutrients in the food that soil produces. Permaculture has the ability to fix *all* these problems, and world hunger too. 

The main idea of it is good design of a food producing natural environment that requires the least amount of human intervention. It's a system that becomes only more rich in time. It develops everything, from the amount of food produced through the years, to the biodiversity of the area and resiliency of the ecosystem. Each area of the world could apply permaculture by utilizing the natural conditions and identifying thriving plants that fit the climate. 

This system could be applied in many different scales, starting from a back garden and going up to state farms. 

I'm studying architecture right now and the hype is all about sustainability - trying to minimize the footprint we have on earth through applying technology. It's far too late to try to minimize things, what we need is positive impact on the environment, one that could try to bring the climate back to its state of equilibrium.


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

The commune I'm designing uses permaculture between the aquaponics greenhouses. Hydroponics is an easy start, but not as efficient as aquaponics. Vertical farming is an efficient use of space.


----------



## Fatal Destiny (Oct 4, 2018)

I want people to stop looking at each other's plate to see who has more and to instead look to see who has enough.


----------



## quesadillaftw (Nov 21, 2018)

Permaculture sounds like a great idea but the real struggle is: how are we going to make people actually do it?
That's were the influencers would help, but a lot of them suck. Not all of them though


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

Explaining the benefits of sustainability is effective, but a lot of people need an example. That's where wealth comes in. There will need to be a lot of people getting involved in the work, so that living in harmony and efficiency will be considered normal. **** sapiens, like other species, learns traits from the older creatures.


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

1960's communes failed due to the rebellion created by oppression. The resulting party lead to neglect and carelessness. The kids escaped conformity of expression, but they took their abuse with them.


----------



## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

Shared interest. For example, workmates don't work together because they are just thinking about themselves. Living under the same roof at home, people are all doing their own thing and not working together... Just sort of creating roles. It's smart, but it shouldn't be everything. There needs to be some sort of shared value whether it's love or pragmatic things like making sure everything works. 

Value the electricity you use instead of just ignoring how and why you have electricity, getting obsessed on power. Think how much power you have doing so little when your phone works... very little muscle and a whole lot of control. It is a seed for hubris. Realize that the phone is not a given. It's not this magical thing that just exists at all times to be your loyal servant. Not only does it use electricity continually, but the hardware itself consists of things that are very hard to create entirely on your own. Yet, you're using it practically by yourself to fulfill individual interest? That's a whole lot of shebang just for you. If sharing is caring, there is no sharing with this high demanding device. 

Also, letting your phone do everything is boring. It's like playing a game with cheat codes. How about you use your brain to solve problems instead of relying on your phone for everything. Don't use Google maps, use a real map. Don't read online, go to the library. Don't use a calculator, do maths. Don't waste your perfectly good brains and muscles just because there is a lazier way to do the same thing.


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

Communal living is occurring in established communities. There's no need to build if a community is in agreement. However, cooperation and collaboration need to be shown to the populace as effective and safe before the majority will mimic.


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

Technology will work better for us if designers and manufactures share information. These processes will benefit from flat organization.


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

We're having this discussion due to technological advances. We don't have to make a best guess or search for clues in libraries. We have a literal world of information at our fingertips.


----------



## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

Mick Travis said:


> We're having this discussion due to technological advances. We don't have to make a best guess or search for clues in libraries. We have a literal world of information at our fingertips.


Yeah that's the problem. It's like, why go outside if everything you need is inside? At least in going to the library you step outside, and help someone have a job as a librarian, and open opportunity for meeting new people or running into people you know already, show off clothes you wear without taking pictures, discover something you weren't looking for intentionally, and aren't being spoon fed visions to your eyes so you can stay focused on what you want to easier. It's less hypnotic. 

Think of the television. Watching all the motion without moving yourself. It all happens around you. Similarly, virtual reality (an oxymoron btw), makes you dizzy because you try to move as you're looking at things moving. It's like when you are driving and you can't see the trees because they aren't moving, but you can see other cars because they are moving. It's like rejecting your own movement, just to watch others move on tv. Be a tree watching cars, but the cars don't even see who you really are. 

The solution isn't strapping trees on cars so people see trees moving faster, it's slowing down cars so people can watch the trees instead of it being the other way around. 

It's like, instead of working longer and longer getting addicted to work and making others work more, to take time off work for vacation. To pay the pregnant women, to pay for vacation, and to pay so people aren't forced to live inside their own cars just speeding past it all.


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

Stelliferous said:


> Yeah that's the problem. It's like, why go outside if everything you need is inside?


I do a lot of research over the internet. That doesn't stop me from being physically active.



Stelliferous said:


> At least in going to the library


Even the Library of Congress can't keep up with the real time information shared over the internet.



Stelliferous said:


> It's like, instead of working longer and longer getting addicted to work and making others work more, to take time off work for vacation. To pay the pregnant women, to pay for vacation, and to pay so people aren't forced to live inside their own cars just speeding past it all.


By creating efficiency and abundance, much less work will be required for human maintenance. Some people will be driven to work toward more efficiency. This will be a form of their leisure.


----------



## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

Mick Travis said:


> I do a lot of research over the internet. That doesn't stop me from being physically active.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah well telepathy gets tons of information, very fast in fact. Doesn't make it progress.


----------



## wums (Nov 25, 2013)

For me it all goes back to increased efficiency. There is too much waste of every kind of resource and it's purely due to inefficiency. The major thing that could create this change is for people to focus less on their internal idea of others and more on aspects of their own life that is in their control. I am doing that myself, I am tirelessly working to increase my efficiency, and that's all I can do for the world.


----------



## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

Mick Travis said:


> Communal living is occurring in established communities. There's no need to build if a community is in agreement. However, cooperation and collaboration need to be shown to the populace as effective and safe before the majority will mimic.


Actually, Israel was first established by creating highly productive communes called Kibbutz, people used to have their own rooms, but everything else was shared. People would eat together at a cafeteria which had scheduled eating times and each person was assigned a task for the day. Earnings of the Kibbutz were used to make improvements in it instead of being handed to the people in it, thereby improving everybody's lives. This was probably the closest thing I know to Marx's idea of communism that actually worked, but it only worked because people had a common goal in mind. The people in the Kibbutz were satisfied living there because they felt like they contributing to something bigger than them, but as time passed and towns were established and became the new norm, the people in the Kibbutz became more selfish as well. In the 90's a lot of tourists came to experience the wonder called the Kibbutz, especially Scandinavians, but right now people rarely know what it is. I think it's a part of where society is headed. People are taught that they can't trust anybody else, and the perspective people get from media is that they'll never be able to make an impact. Entertainment and highly accessible products are making people satisfied with their place in life, but is it really the life we want for ourselves? A life where everybody strives to get a bigger chunk of the leftovers that the people in power are comfortable with handing out? What about being able to be self reliant? We're fed everything with a spoon without having to work for it while being assigned a lifelong station which we hope to get our share of "allowance" from. 

What about creating our own reality? What about slowly building up the world which we actually want to live in? The current monetary system highly incentivizes conformity to the status quo without putting things more important than monetary power in the equation. What about mutual benefit? Building up of resources and continuous sharing of them thereby establishing connections based on trust? Fine, you could say that is would take too much time, would be highly inefficient and would be a step back for society, but could it be that we took the wrong step forward at some point? Don't we want kindness and abundance to be the leading themes of our lives? And current technology and information would allow to tweak and improve what we build over time. Meanwhile, people that don't take this first step wouldn't see any of the benefits. So how do you put the word out? How do you make a person see that there could be a better alternative for them?


----------



## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

And here's a short film, those were different times.


----------



## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

I would really like to see some changes in politics. Right now the way it is set up is for people to be elected and other people appointed to offices that they really know nothing about. Now, I know that's the American way.... but in some other countries they actually have advisories of experts. Advisories of expert people whose opinions are listened to instead of lobbies.... now that would be some powerful change in America for the smartest most proven thoughts if possible (there is corruption everywhere, but you would control for that by doing various things in congress and the judicial system like usual). Also our binary party system is America is ridiculous. Also... why do the whole politicians thing anyway, why not have peer-elected round-table of advisories?


----------



## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

Tough question and excuse me for i will be very blatant. I see the root of the root of all evil and destructions is, as everyone has guess; money. Specifically; the very common practical concept being used worldwide, the *Time Value of Money*. U s u r y. The compounding interests.

This practice and concept had been flourished since renaissance and church reformation era which did help fueling the vast and fast industrialization in the west. 

But i sincerely believe that all has went too far for now we are practically living on borrowed resources. We have stolen those are our grand and grand grand children's, we have gleefully and blissfully discounted their future equities for our current endless indulging lifestyle which fuel our pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and sloth, all the cardinal sins and more, with all the social implications and diseases arising from them. We are all, the biggest thieves on earth, all the wealth we have now is by robbing our children's. 

That's my big picture. I will want to try to undo it and ask people to follow since to move forward with minimum pain, for all, we certainly need moderation and self control. We have to be better.

I'd like you to read just one short paper to get all the reasonings on the severity of the problem, download the pdf here:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/24067306_A_Short_Review_of_the_Historical_Critique_of_Usury



> In this context it is fitting to observe that a key feature that distinguishes financial economy from nature's economy is that the one operates on a compound interest basis, whereas the other is based on simple interest.Money deposited in the bank may yield 10% plus interest on the compounded sum next year, but in nature, if you leave this year's crop of apples on the tree, you are unlikely to pick a compoundedly heavier crop next year!Accordingly, *usury permits a disjunction between financial and ecological economy*.The result is either the progressive destruction of nature, or in the absence of redistributive social justice, an inbuilt necessity for periodic financial crashes throughout history.The point is well made by the illustration that if Judas Iscariot had invested his thirty pieces of silver at just a few percentage points compound, repayable in silver as of today, the amount of silver required would be equivalent to the weight of the Earth.
> 
> The implicit ethics, or dearth thereof, of discounting can be used to illustrate clearly why usury corrupts the natural world as well as social relations.For instance, consider the impact of net present value discounted cash flow methodolgy in appraising the trade-off between natural and human made capital which, over the fullness of time, can usually be justified only if the utility of future generations is discounted (McIntosh, 1996).This violates intergenerational equity - a key principle of sustainable development recognised by both the 1987 Brundtland Commission and the 1992 Rio Earth Summit of the United Nations.It also violates an age old percept of right livelihood which flies in the face of the presumption of time value of money on which interest rates are based: that is, *it violates the presumption of many traditional land users that the land should be handed on to the next generation in at least as good heart as it was inherited from the forebears*.Discounting, as the counterpoint of usury, can be thus exposed as rueful device employed to justify theft of the children's future.Exploration of the theoretical basis and practical illustrations of this argument perhaps provides much scope for future micro and macroeconomic research in ecological economics.


_Sent sans PC_


----------



## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

I think America has gotten very “For or against”— bi-partisan in thinking, not just in political structure. And it means a decrease in critical thinking and stymied decision making. For instance, people think you are either pro-cop or anti-cop. Can’t I be for people as individuals? Safety for all? Pro extensive training against racial profiling, anti-corruption, etc. 

Also people think you have to be for guns or against guns. Can’t I be for some regulations? There are regulations for people driving cars to keep us safe. I think people can own and opporate cars if they aren’t blind, aren’t drunk, are mentally able, etc. i think seeing things as completely for or against makes it tough to actually talk about the real problems and see things clearly or delve into possibilities.


----------



## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

contradictionary said:


> Tough question and excuse me for i will be very blatant. I see the root of the root of all evil and destructions is, as everyone has guess; money. Specifically; the very common practical concept being used worldwide, the *Time Value of Money*. U s u r y. The compounding interests.


I fully agree, and thanks for the source. I think there's even more to it though, I think there's an unequal allocation of resource in comparison to the importance of work done. Nutrition should be our main priority, yet farmers stand at the bottom of the financial hierarchy, all because they're the "shrimp in the foodchain" the more middlemen you pass through from there, the more financial success you get, because people constantly seek a way to get money out of an already established economic model, so what you get is basically a stacking up of services for services of services, while natural sources get depleted. If we hold the economic model down to the biological capacity of human relationship (100 people) which is based on trust, we'd still have competition and trade, but the economy would be based on local resources and the improvement of our immediate environment.

@wums I think the current monetary system encourages bad characteristics of people to come forward. It's not just some people that are bad from the start, it's human nature to seek the most profitable route, and if you make profit based on mutual trust and human relationship then that's what people will aim for. I'm not saying that I think this has a chance of happening anytime soon, I'm saying that we should start moving into economic models that resemble this kind of solution through implementation of well designed projects, and that is what I'm willing to figure out.

@Llyralen I think the media has a lot to do with this, there are two main political camps that get their fuel for one sided-debate material through media agencies that profit off of controversy, clashing, violence and upheaval. People want to feed their own view with legitimacy and instead get further brainwashed into thinking that their way is the only way.


----------



## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

Now compare this to the number of people in society (which is currently the case) and you get a massive inequality in distribution.


----------



## Ka1serTheRoll (Oct 4, 2017)

Fru2 said:


> Check out the video I sent on page 6 called "sacred economics". The thing about a monetary system is that the money always lands at the people who know how to take advantage of the system, or people who establish a successful business. When you limit the market to physical exchange where the value exchanged between parties is trust, you could make sure that the value will be quite equally distributed between people, because, like you said, people are evolved to be in contact with 100 people max. People will start making their economic decisions based on personal relations and gratitude, which is *exactly* what we need. Nobody says that we couldn't build a repertoire with somebody on the other side of the world through the internet. If you want to build relations with them and you trust them to give you what you need back in return as gratitude, so be it. The point is to be able to buld up your relations and constantly improve your immediate environment instead of having all the resources allocated to the people who do the least but take the most. This system is rigged.


https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmKXQuG1OdOyGI0ZyjgiqMQW9r03Fs60k 

Give this playlist a look


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

Fru2 said:


> I fully agree, and thanks for the source. I think there's even more to it though, I think there's an unequal allocation of resource in comparison to the importance of work done. Nutrition should be our main priority, yet farmers stand at the bottom of the financial hierarchy, all because they're the "shrimp in the foodchain" the more middlemen you pass through from there, the more financial success you get, because people constantly seek a way to get money out of an already established economic model, so what you get is basically a stacking up of services for services of services, while natural sources get depleted.









Fru2 said:


> If we hold the economic model down to the biological capacity of human relationship (100 people) which is based on trust, we'd still have competition and trade, but the economy would be based on local resources and the improvement of our immediate environment.


I think globally and act locally. The global part lets me imagine a consensus of production beyond market research. We need to determine what we actually need, then collaborate and invest in it together.



Fru2 said:


> I think the media has a lot to do with this, there are two main political camps that get their fuel for one sided-debate material through media agencies that profit off of controversy, clashing, violence and upheaval. People want to feed their own view with legitimacy and instead get further brainwashed into thinking that their way is the only way.


I allow a little bit of everything in my songwriting. Could the ambiguity lead to disastrous misinterpretation? I like taking all the paths music presents, but I understand some people take “hello” the wrong way.


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

There's hope. At this time, this poll shows 37.5% of respondents wish to save the world...

https://www.personalitycafe.com/member-polls/1284073-save-world-use-world.html

I have linked back to this thread.


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

The internet is a great town hall. We the people have always been good at spreading ideology, but the internet has greatly facilitated this procedure. What do you think about government sanctioned social propaganda? It might be better than Madison Avenue propaganda, but is it healthy or effective?

https://www.whitehouse.gov/bebest/


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

Personally intervening in the cycle of abuse can be tricky, because everyone involved is a perpetrator and a victim. The abused learn the inflated self worth and lying from the perp. This is used for comfort and protection. It also creates another perp, so the cycle continues. A rescuer will have to deal with the narcissistic qualities of the latest victim.

I need a name for this effect other than "cycle of abuse".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_abuse


----------



## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

Fru2 said:


> Now compare this to the number of people in society (which is currently the case) and you get a massive inequality in distribution.


A true conservative, right, supremacist wouldn't ever care let alone preaching about distribution inequality.

_Sent sans PC_


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

contradictionary said:


> A true conservative, right, supremacist wouldn't ever care let alone preaching about distribution inequality.
> 
> _Sent sans PC_


I know I'm supposed to hear all arguments in this thread, but I can't take 1 second of that hominid.


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

I've just been told that my song demos are unintelligible noise. It looks like I won't get a critique until I find a producer.


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

We who know emperor has no clothes are part of a revolution. If you're not a rebel, you're doing it wrong.

Also, @Despotic Ocelot


----------



## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

Mick Travis said:


> We who know emperor has no clothes are part of a revolution. If you're not a rebel, you're doing it wrong.


When you were young.

Which is, not now. :wink:

_Sent sans PC_


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

contradictionary said:


> When you were young.
> 
> Which is, not now. :wink:
> 
> _Sent sans PC_


“Grow up” is code for “Stop resisting and conform”.


----------



## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

Fuck the system.
Jordan Peterson is a good man.


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

Armeen Arlerrt said:


> Fuck the system.


How would you describe "the system"? What is your advice for eschewing it?



Armeen Arlerrt said:


> Jordan Peterson is a good man.


Does JP present a system that doesn't invite abuse and mediocrity?


----------



## Ka1serTheRoll (Oct 4, 2017)

I believe we need to see a return to pragmatism. We need to look at where our problems lie and solve them in the most rational manner possible. Ideology and special interests must be discarded if we are to remain competitive


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

Due to the linear nature of this think tank, I have tried to encapsulate my point of view as expressed throughout this thread.

The problem with society is the system of abuse. Authoritarianism in the home creates more authoritarians to feed the system. This abuse stems from the promotion of competition. Cooperation is not only more efficient, it's mentally healthier. It's difficult to intervene in this relationship, because hostility manifests from competition. Hostility stems from fear of loss, which creates irrational behavior.

This abuse makes it difficult to know our neighbors. They become clannish due to competition. They utilize a superficial public persona, and display the resulting insanity in private. People fear exposure. They attempt too fulfill their biological need to socialize through artificial commercial means. People take solace in concepts that build ego like consumerism, religion, and entertainment.

Abuse is amplified by power. This is why business and government are not likely help in saving the world. We who desire sanity, efficiency, and abundance will have to embark on our own. We will have to set an example. We will have to be creative in funding, as the market shuns investment that doesn't grow profit.

We can effect change through influencers and financial contributions. We can educate through presentation and word of mouth. We can build working models. We should build self sufficient communities that exemplify cooperation and happiness. We should start worker owned collaborative projects that cater to needs and not profit. We should not promote ideas for the sake of monetizing them. We should not support businesses that prey on our misery.


----------



## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

@Mick Travis Your ideas sound very much like what this presentation is all about, it's probably the best one I've watched on Permaculture.


----------



## AncientOak (Nov 21, 2018)

There are a lot of things I'd like to change...but I think a key aspect of non-violent change, is in people actually listening to each other. Many may despair of change coming in any way but through mass protests and even violence. I wont' say that I dont' think large-scale protests may not at times be useful or necessary, but at the day to day level, at the micro-level of change just within one city or community, I constantly see a need for listening, for really hearing and considering what people are saying, and more -- having a leadership that's able to hear "behind" what people are saying, so they can get a sense of what's motivating people with different perspectives. 

The divisiveness in politics in the US and beyond, is happening in part because of a failure to listen to or even tolerate people with a different point of view. It's become too common that people with very different views are simply categorically dismissed -- we have descended, essentially, into the inability to consider and argue with viewpoints, and instead the logically fallacious ad hominem argument -- arguing _*against people*_, or what we believe they represent or what we insist on attributing to them, even if that's not what they represent -- has become a "mainstream" mode of argument. 

So in a way, what I believe is most needed, is both a greater commitment to listening and tolerating viewpoints diametrically opposed to our own, and also, a renewed commitment to logic and use of reason in public discourse. For instance, employing as a rule in public debates and discourse, that it will not be acceptable to employ any type of ad hominem argument, or other obvious logical fallacies. So...what do we need -- ironic, but this INFP is suggesting we need to get back to studying and understanding logical fallacies, so that we can move away from reactive, excessively emotional and irrational responses to other people and their very different points of view. 

The study of Non-violent communication is one part of this. Ask yourself....can I talk to and listen to someone whose point of view is 180 degrees opposite mine? Or do I have to go to war with them? 

Something I'd like to point out -- people, particularly feeling-dominant types, can delude themselves about how "compassionate/loving" they are. While they can feel compassion towards those who are similar to themselves, have similar views -- or alternately those they can stereotype as "the poor downtrodden/oppressed"-- these people who so pride themselves on their compassion, often have no compassion at all for people with opposite points of view. Real compassion and love is not just for those who have what we think are the "right" views and politics. Real compassion contains curiosity, and curiosity makes us wonder about those who are very different-- whom we may have dismissed or excluded for one reason or another. Curiosity never allows such separation, and in pushing us to consider the humanity of those we think are furthest from our hearts, curiosity and imagination could even be said to be more important than the affect "compassion" or the feeling of love. 

The book "_Strangers in Their Own Land: Anger and Mourning on the AMerican Right"_ was written by a woman, Arlie Russell Hochschild, who had just this kind of rare commitment to listen to those whose political points of view were completely opposite to hers. Her years of study for this book demonstrate just the kind of change I think we need most, not only in the US, but the world over.


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)




----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

Nov 9, 2017






Aug 31, 2008


----------



## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

@Mick Travis I like the earthship concept a lot. 

On a side note, I'm reading Peterson's "maps of meaning" and came across a quote that could give an idea of why beliefs and humanities have just as much of an important as science:



> _The world can be validly construed as forum for action, or as place of things. The former manner of interpretation – more primordial, and less clearly understood – finds its expression in the arts or humanities, in ritual, drama, literature, and mythology. The world as forum for action is a place of value, a place where all things have meaning. This meaning, which is shaped as a consequence of social interaction, is implication for action, or – at a higher level of analysis – implication for the configuration of the interpretive schema that produces or guides action. The latter manner of interpretation – the world as place of things – finds its formal expression in the methods and theories of science. Science allows for increasingly precise determination of the consensuallyvalidatable properties of things, and for efficient utilization of precisely-determined things as tools (once the direction such use is to take has been determined, through application of more fundamental narrative processes).
> 
> No complete world-picture can be generated, without use of both modes of construal. The fact that one mode is generally set at odds with the other means only that the nature of their respective domains remains insufficiently discriminated. Adherents of the mythological world-view tend to regard the statements of their creeds as indistinguishable from empirical “fact,” even though such statements were generally formulated long before the notion of objective reality emerged. Those who, by contrast, accept the scientific perspective – who assume that it is, or might become, complete – forget that an impassable gulf currently divides what is from what should be.
> We need to know four things:
> ...


So basically, he concentrates in his book on the idea that science gives us tool and material to accomplish what we want to accomplish, but it is meaning and belief that would drive us to do whatever we're set forward to do. I highly recommend this book, especially to you.

@AncientOak I've also got a quote for you which seems to resemble your thoughts quite a bit, which I completely agree with:



> Unprotected exposure to unexplored territory produces fear. The individual is protected from such fear as a consequence of “ritual imitation of the Great Father” – as a consequence of the adoption of group identity, which restricts the meaning of things, and confers predictability on social interactions. When identification with the group is made absolute, however – when everything has to be controlled, when the unknown is no longer allowed to exist – the creative exploratory process that updates the group can no longer manifest itself. This “restriction of adaptive capacity” dramatically increases the probability of social aggression and chaos.
> 
> Rejection of the unknown is tantamount to “identification with the devil,” the mythological counterpart and eternal adversary of the world-creating exploratory hero. Such rejection and identification is a consequence of Luciferian pride, which states: all that I know is all that is necessary to know. This pride is totalitarian assumption of omniscience – is adoption of “God’s place” by “reason” – is something that inevitably generates a state of personal and social being indistinguishable from hell. This hell develops because creative exploration – impossible, without (humble) acknowledgment of the unknown – constitutes the process that constructs and maintains the protective adaptive structure that gives life much of its acceptable meaning.
> 
> ...


So essentially what drives people away from the curiosity you speak of, is fear. Fear of the unknown. Absolute negligence and avoidance of half of what our reality consists of.


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

Fru2 said:


> I highly recommend this book, especially to you.


Honestly, no matter what JP may get right in his spray, he is at his base someone I will not tolerate. I (hopefully obviously) understand the power of memes...


----------



## Lady of Clockwork (Dec 14, 2017)

I would like to see more attendance to the environment from people.

If everybody cleaned up after themselves, no matter where they are, from being outside or putting their rubbish and trays away at a fast food diner. People should clean up after themselves in public bathrooms, too, and there should be supplies available in the cubicle to allow people to do so.

These are very small contributions, but for some reason they seem like a big deal to people, somehow needing to debate their responsibilities.

I also wondered what coasts would be like if, perhaps, every first Sunday of the month people would congregate to their nearest beach and help clean the waters. People on land or underwater or on boats sifting through the waters, helping the world rather than constantly consuming from it. Those who cannot get to the coasts would maintain the land, helping with gardens and forestry, to help keep the world clean and beautiful and less toxic.

I don't know why people feel embarrassed to be seen cleaning in public.


----------



## Ka1serTheRoll (Oct 4, 2017)

Replace Christmas with Saturnalia. Also, Io Saturnalia everybody!


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

As per his, “Stick to astronomy, buddy,” comment at the start, one can see Einstein encountered Stockholm Syndrome among the general public. Nevertheless, he kept teaching. I think the solution to the corruption of a planned economy mentioned at the end, is to build utopia from the ground up, as we have been discussing.


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

This presentation suggests that people are self motivating.


----------



## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

Of course, each person has their own motivations and way of seeing the world, the only way to get the world to where you want it to go is by implementing individual change that will give you profit and spreading the word about how your did it. Being an example as far as I know is the best way of influencing. Nobody's going to go along with your plans of changing their lifestyle just because you decided its best for them, they need to get into that mindset by themselves.


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

Fru2 said:


> Of course, each person has their own motivations and way of seeing the world, the only way to get the world to where you want it to go is by implementing individual change that will give you profit and spreading the word about how your did it. Being an example as far as I know is the best way of influencing. Nobody's going to go along with your plans of changing their lifestyle just because you decided its best for them, they need to get into that mindset by themselves.


It's ironic that Madison Avenue is now catering to us.


----------



## Ka1serTheRoll (Oct 4, 2017)

Fru2 said:


> Of course, each person has their own motivations and way of seeing the world, the only way to get the world to where you want it to go is by implementing individual change that will give you profit and spreading the word about how your did it. Being an example as far as I know is the best way of influencing. Nobody's going to go along with your plans of changing their lifestyle just because you decided its best for them, they need to get into that mindset by themselves.


That and you go for compromise. You talk to people and try to find what their goals are, and then seek out a conclusion which benefits all parties


----------



## strawberryLola (Sep 19, 2010)

I share a lot of Greta Thunberg's sentiments, what a _wise soul!! Well beyond her years!_





What I would personally change in today's society? 
I'd get rid of the millitary. The only millitary we should have is a green one, where we help to save and restore the planet that our previous generations have contributed in destroying (and unknowingly so for the masses as some people didn't know).

I'd also find a way to bridge peaceful resolutions. We need to honour and respect where we all came from, our collective history of narratives of our ancestors and somehow tie it back into the modern age through preservation of the planet by any way possible.

I'd also encourage people to get off their cell phones, as technology has a way of tremendously depersonalizing human interaction and relationships.

I'd also change the way we treat and view artists, as they are the change makers of society, we need to promote more musicians and encourage them to look deeply from within and step away from the images of money and fame, as it stands in the way of good quality music, words and percussion you simply cannot mimic with technology. 

I would lastly like to change this whole "scarcity" mentality mindset. I'm tired of Ayn Randroids running all around dictating how we live our lives. I'd promote more peace makers in society who bring joy into people's lives, as we're all interconnected to each other, the big picture meaning of _life, love, understanding to silence fear, hate, ignorance, and cruelty through seeking of truth to bring about a quality of life that benefits all sentient beings. My wish, ultimately, is for an enlightened planet when people were once connected with who they truly were and not the dollar amount that's ascribed._


----------



## strawberryLola (Sep 19, 2010)

I share a lot of Greta Thunberg's sentiments, what a _wise soul!! Well beyond her years!_





What I would personally change in today's society? 
I'd get rid of the current millitaries. The only millitary we should have is a *Green* one, where we help to save and restore the planet that our previous generations have contributed in destroying (and unknowingly so for the masses as some people didn't know).

I'd also find a way to bridge peaceful resolutions. We need to honour and respect where we all came from, our collective history of narratives of our ancestors and somehow tie it back into the modern age through preservation of the planet by any way possible.

I'd also encourage people to get off their cell phones, as technology has a way of tremendously depersonalizing human interaction and relationships.

I'd also change the way we treat and view artists, as they are the change makers of society, we need to promote more musicians and encourage them to look deeply from within and step away from the images of money and fame, as it stands in the way of good quality music, words and percussion you simply cannot mimic through technology. 

I would lastly like to change this whole "scarcity" mentality mindset. I'm tired of Ayn Randroids running all around dictating how we live our lives. I'd promote more peace makers in society who bring joy into people's lives, as we're all interconnected to each other, the big picture meaning of _life, love, understanding to silence fear, hate, ignorance, and cruelty through seeking of truth to bring about a quality of life that benefits all sentient beings. My wish, ultimately, is for an enlightened planet where people were once connected with whom they truly were at heart, and not the dollar amount they're ascribed to._


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

strawberryLola said:


> I share a lot of Greta Thunberg's sentiments, what a _wise soul!! Well beyond her years!_


wow



strawberryLola said:


> What I would personally change in today's society?
> I'd get rid of the millitary.


Is the world at a point where we can let our guard down?



strawberryLola said:


> The only millitary we should have is a green one, where we help to save and restore the planet that our previous generations have contributed in destroying (and unknowingly so for the masses as some people didn't know).


I agree that immediate worldwide think tank action is necessary.



strawberryLola said:


> I'd also find a way to bridge peaceful resolutions. We need to honour and respect where we all came from, our collective history of narratives of our ancestors and somehow tie it back into the modern age through preservation of the planet by any way possible.


How will putting emphasis on what we've done give us focus for what we can do?



strawberryLola said:


> I'd also change the way we treat and view artists, as they are the change makers of society, we need to promote more musicians and encourage them to look deeply from within and step away from the images of money and fame, as it stands in the way of good quality music, words and percussion you simply cannot mimic with technology.
> 
> I would lastly like to change this whole "scarcity" mentality mindset. I'm tired of Ayn Randroids running all around dictating how we live our lives. I'd promote more peace makers in society who bring joy into people's lives, as we're all interconnected to each other, the big picture meaning of _life, love, understanding to silence fear, hate, ignorance, and cruelty through seeking of truth to bring about a quality of life that benefits all sentient beings. My wish, ultimately, is for an enlightened planet when people were once connected with who they truly were and not the dollar amount that's ascribed._


erc3:


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

If the military would like to stay on the up and up, it should broadcast no nonsense common knowledge about hardware and procedure. This would also be promotion and public review. It's a win win situation.


----------



## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

Mick Travis said:


> How will putting emphasis on what we've done give us focus for what we can do?


By providing us with a basic framework of culture that we developed over millennia. We're currently in the middle of culture politics that steal up all the brainpower and attention of the things that actually matter, the ones @strawberryLola has mentioned so finely. Is it all a distraction? This political circus, this technology that seems to steal our time and attention, all this luxury that slowly brings us to a point of satisfaction and dependence?


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

Fru2 said:


> By providing us with a basic framework of culture that we developed over millennia.


I'm out on this one. My culture is my life.



Fru2 said:


> We're currently in the middle of culture politics


I've been trying to wrap my head around this concept. How do you define it?


----------



## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

Mick Travis said:


> I'm out on this one. My culture is my life.
> I've been trying to wrap my head around this concept. How do you define it?


You're celebrating Christmas, right? That's part of culture. Culture could be seen as the values instilled in the collective consciousness of Judeo-Christian tradition such as honesty, conscience, morality, decency and mutual respect. Culture politics is the aim of different socio-political movements to take these values out of the picture and use all forms of neo-marxist agendas in the hopes of elevating one geographical/socioeconomical/gender-based/racial group from the other. When a person comes to you and demands your house because they're a minority and you're not, it's a result of the rise of culture politics. This might sound far-fetched, but these kinds of populist agendas move very fast, especially with today's technology and fragility of values. 

In essence, people are concentrating on their differences, especially the ones people can't change, instead of focusing on mutual benefit, purpose and love for the planet and for other people. Look at all the recent movements that took place, they're all aiming at one particular group, the pussy riots, black lives matter, trans-rights etc etc. You'd think that most of the legislation that would take place would be concentrated on sustainability and improving people's lives, instead they're debating over the question whether a 10 year old child could choose for themselves to change their gender or not.


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

Fru2 said:


> You're celebrating Christmas, right?


We're celebrating Yule. It gives us something to do and a better bond in the winter.



Fru2 said:


> That's part of culture. Culture could be seen as the values instilled in the collective consciousness of Judeo-Christian tradition such as honesty, conscience, morality, decency and mutual respect.


Religion is an inefficient reference for morality. It's also loaded with mysticism someone might actually take seriously. We have to scientifically determine our nature and learn how to amplify the useful parts of our it. We know we can increase empathy by consciously feeling empathy and thus make the feeling habit.



Fru2 said:


> Culture politics is the aim of different socio-political movements to take these values out of the picture and use all forms of neo-marxist agendas in the hopes of elevating one geographical/socioeconomical/gender-based/racial group from the other. When a person comes to you and demands your house because they're a minority and you're not, it's a result of the rise of culture politics. This might sound far-fetched, but these kinds of populist agendas move very fast, especially with today's technology and fragility of values.


Do you have any examples? Could you post a video?



Fru2 said:


> In essence, people are concentrating on their differences, especially the ones people can't change, instead of focusing on mutual benefit, purpose and love for the planet and for other people. Look at all the recent movements that took place, they're all aiming at one particular group, the pussy riots, black lives matter, trans-rights etc etc.


At what group are these activists aiming?



Fru2 said:


> You'd think that most of the legislation that would take place would be concentrated on sustainability and improving people's lives, instead they're debating over the question whether a 10 year old child could choose for themselves to change their gender or not.


I look forward to the day we live without hate. I think having to fight for rights in the middle of a hateful society can make advocates a little edgy at times.


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

Ele30 said:


> Tribal living was better for people's mental health.


You might find this interesting.


----------



## Ka1serTheRoll (Oct 4, 2017)

Mick Travis said:


> You might find this interesting.


Aristotle correctly postulated that it was in humanity's nature to create a _Polis_ or state.


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

Ka1serTheRoll said:


> Aristotle correctly postulated that it was in humanity's nature to create a _Polis_ or state.


I've recently realized that our genetics will prevent us from coming together as a species. I'm just trying to stay out of the crossfire. I have nothing to contribute to this thread.


----------



## Ka1serTheRoll (Oct 4, 2017)

Mick Travis said:


> I've recently realized that our genetics will prevent us from coming together as a species. I'm just trying to stay out of the crossfire. I have nothing to contribute to this thread.


Meanwhile, I charge in guns-a'blazin' since I ain't got shit else to do


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

Ka1serTheRoll said:


> Meanwhile, I charge in guns-a'blazin' since I ain't got shit else to do


Whatever floats your boat.


----------



## AR4 (Jan 12, 2019)

Nothing.

The society is perfect as it is understanding how it should be, and how it will become. The rest is and will be distant yet warming memories. Civilization is nothing more than a mirage. A self outcasting prophesy. Gone before its bore will ever become available. A picture of freedom on a steel wall hiding the raw nature of human primitivism. And as savage animalism, restrained by current laws, makes self preservation appear like a tiny thing in our lives, when it will be released into liberty, one will embrace with deepest possible constructive and connective emotions the memory of being able to .. breathe oxygen without fear and horror. Over there, things like dreams, fixing, wealth build up or social security will be reversely compounded merely by the hunger of the co member of ones surviving circle. And when the hunger of a beast is in an area that has no social restrains ascends, the dreamer becomes the meal.

So again. Nothing. And for one more reason. The People will, have and are always getting the leadership they merit. That is called the tyranny of the masses.


----------



## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

AR4 said:


> Nothing.
> 
> The society is perfect as it is understanding how it should be, and how it will become. The rest is and will be distant yet warming memories. Civilization is nothing more than a mirage. A self outcasting prophesy. Gone before its bore will ever become available. A picture of freedom on a steel wall hiding the raw nature of human primitivism. And as savage animalism, restrained by current laws, makes self preservation appear like a tiny thing in our lives, when it will be released into liberty, one will embrace with deepest possible constructive and connective emotions the memory of being able to .. breathe oxygen without fear and horror. Over there, things like dreams, fixing, wealth build up or social security will be reversely compounded merely by the hunger of the co member of ones surviving circle. And when the hunger of a beast is in an area that has no social restrains ascends, the dreamer becomes the meal.
> 
> So again. Nothing. And for one more reason. The People will, have and are always getting the leadership they merit. That is called the tyranny of the masses.


There are two sides to the coin. There always are. In this case, the tyrannical figure you're portraying is no less that than it is the realm of order and light, where people get the stability that allows them to think further than where to get their next meal.


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

I think this is a realistic approach.


----------



## Ka1serTheRoll (Oct 4, 2017)

Mick Travis said:


> I think this is a realistic approach.


*Sees Reagan*

_Hysterical laughing at the biggest fraud in American politics before Trump_


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

Ka1serTheRoll said:


> *Sees Reagan*
> 
> _Hysterical laughing at the biggest fraud in American politics before Trump_


Sure, politicians are frauds. However, we can only make junk and sell it to each other. That's all we're capable of.


----------



## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Mick Travis said:


> You might find this interesting.


 I am a sucker for both colonial time info and Ben Franklin. But that's so interesting... love it! Ty


----------



## Ka1serTheRoll (Oct 4, 2017)

Mick Travis said:


> Sure, politicians are frauds. However, we can only make junk and sell it to each other. That's all we're capable of.


1. Reagan was especially bad in this, however. There's a difference between being underhanded in a Machiavellian sense and being so in a Randian sense. The former is using questionable means to achieve positive ends. The latter is just about elevating oneself. Reagan's poor long-term policies clearly demonstrate that he was the latter. 

2. Well we can breathe, eat, etc. But if I have something you want, I see no reason to give it to you unless your life depends on it or I get something in return


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

Ka1serTheRoll said:


> 1. Reagan was especially bad in this, however. There's a difference between being underhanded in a Machiavellian sense and being so in a Randian sense. The former is using questionable means to achieve positive ends. The latter is just about elevating oneself. Reagan's poor long-term policies clearly demonstrate that he was the latter.
> 
> 2. Well we can breathe, eat, etc. But if I have something you want, I see no reason to give it to you unless your life depends on it or I get something in return


If you want to shoot the messenger, I understand.


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

A matriarchy would be fun.


----------



## Ka1serTheRoll (Oct 4, 2017)

Mick Travis said:


> A matriarchy would be fun.


A light matriarchy like the Iroquois Confederacy would be neat. Hell, just bringing back the Haudenosaunee (aka the Iroquois Confederacy) would be neat


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)

Ka1serTheRoll said:


> A light matriarchy like the Iroquois Confederacy would be neat. Hell, just bringing back the Haudenosaunee (aka the Iroquois Confederacy) would be neat


Putting women in charge is the only way to curb the sexual, violent, and competitive nature of men.


----------



## Ka1serTheRoll (Oct 4, 2017)

Mick Travis said:


> Putting women in charge is the only way to curb the sexual, violent, and competitive nature of men.


Unlikely. Most of that "nature" isn't actually natural, but rather a response to having power. Giving that power to women instead offers no guarantee that those traits won't transfer. The keys to power need to be as diffused as possible to prevent a select few from holding all the power. Democracy has its faults, but in 99% of cases it's still better than all the alternatives


----------



## Mick Travis (Aug 18, 2016)




----------



## Ka1serTheRoll (Oct 4, 2017)

Politics is the study of how things are, not how things should be, and how to improve the human condition within the boundaries of our physical realities. Leave the high ideals to the artists and philosophers


----------



## TalNFJ (May 5, 2017)

I think we need a new religion.


----------



## Ka1serTheRoll (Oct 4, 2017)

https://www.youtube.com/user/CaspianReport

This is a superb channel when it comes to geopolitical analysis


----------



## LemonyLimeClementhyme (Mar 5, 2019)

The generally accepted cognitive dissonance or out-right indifference concerning over-all, as well as individual, impact on the environment and the animals we utilize for our own personal gain and sustenance.


----------



## Ka1serTheRoll (Oct 4, 2017)

I'd like people to put emphasis on cooperation, reason, and compassion instead of the allegiance to tribalism, impulsiveness, and self-interest that most people in my country seem to subscribe to.


----------



## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

Ka1serTheRoll said:


> I'd like people to put emphasis on cooperation, reason, and compassion instead of the allegiance to tribalism, impulsiveness, and self-interest that most people in my country seem to subscribe to.


Here's a book I'm reading specifically addressing that, and more largely everything we've been discussing in this thread:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11289729-sacred-economics

http://download.library1.org/main/8...ge of Transition-Evolver Editions (2011).epub


----------



## Marvin the Dendroid (Sep 10, 2015)

Ka1serTheRoll said:


> I'd like people to put emphasis on cooperation, reason, and compassion instead of the allegiance to tribalism, impulsiveness, and self-interest that most people in my country seem to subscribe to.


I feel that *openness vs. tribalism* is the great fight of this generation.


----------



## Ka1serTheRoll (Oct 4, 2017)

Fru2 said:


> Here's a book I'm reading specifically addressing that, and more largely everything we've been discussing in this thread:
> https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11289729-sacred-economics
> 
> http://download.library1.org/main/8...ge of Transition-Evolver Editions (2011).epub


Thanks, I'll give it a read


----------

