# Ne and Ti / Te and Ni - do you think it is possible to switch between them?



## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

No, no, no! She is not making Fi "_tertiary_". Si is still tertiary. Once again, the standard order, which Beebe's shadows are an extension of, is not about strengths. It's also not about any "order of use", though Lenore's order would come closer to both. 

It starts as four functions, and a dominant attitude: iTNSF. Whatever is chosen, its opposite will be placed further down in consciousness, and in the opposite orientation. It's basically a mirroring dynamic, with just two functions being "preferred", and the nonpreferred ones then falling into place beneath them in the opposite order. 
So if i and T are dominant, then e and F are inferior. If N is auxiliary, which is not as high as the dominant, then S will be lower, but not as low as the inferior. Hence, tertiary. Initially, everything not dominant would be in the rejected e orientation, however a Puer complex (this she has added since coming into contact with Beebe's theory after the book was published) orients the tertiary into the dominant attitude. This is how the TiNeSiFe order came about. That's all the order, with Si as "tertiary" is conveying.

So she had placed what Beebe calls "the shadows" in between the "preferred" and "nonpreferred" blocks. This, again was based on the brain lateralization theory. 
And it's not about using opposing functions at the same time; it's what we turn to under stress.


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

Functianalyst said:


> I guess anything can be made to make sense, but her lasagna theory defies the principles of type and makes absolutely no sense to me. Let's take your type as example. She shows the INTP hierarchy to be Ti-Ne-Fi-Se-Ni-Te-Si-Fe (someone may want to check my work since I am going off memory). I will start with what we all know is the tertiary function for INTP, which is Si. MBTI says it, and every author except Lenore says it. Here is the problem with her placing it in 7th place, the word tertiary literally means in third place or coming after second. Lenore claims the tertiary function for INTP is introverted feeling. Are you in agreement that your tertiary function is Fi instead of Si? Here is the problem with that argument, every theorist that at least follows Jung's work including Jung, says as much as possible we suppress our opposing functions. Lenore would have opposing functions sequentially following one another.
> 
> As Naomi Quenck says of Se-Ne, you cannot take action and consider taking action at the same time. The same goes for Ti-Fi in this case. Fi would be almost non-existent in a Ti dominant type, because it does the same thing in making decisions from a subjective standpoint. The same goes for Se and Ne taking in information or considering possibilities from the object. The theory creates an imbalance.
> 
> I should make myself clear before someone comes along reading this and claim I don't like Lenore Thomson. That is the farthest from the truth. I think she is a great and I enjoyed her book. However like Keirsey, who Lenore seems to have a strong disdain for, she has correlated MB with Jung's work like he did with temperament. Both took liberties in making modifications to fit their purpose which simply do not work. Si-Fe cannot be in 7th and 8th place for INTP no more than Ni-Fe can for ISTP. These two functions are placed where they are for a purpose which is to compensate the dominant and auxiliary functions. No other functions can do that.


Perhaps this is my problem too

It seems as if I might first consider Ne, doubt the conclusions, and then use Se, and then use Ti.

The thing I was missing I guess is that, "doubting the conclusions" is a form of decision making. So it really would end up being Ne Ti Se. EH?

I dont understand how a decision making process can go first though.


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## Functianalyst (Jul 23, 2009)

This is the post that I was looking for. When I originally read it, I considered rethinking my understanding of her lasagna theory. But now that I read your response again. I am not so sure.


Eric B said:


> No, no, no! She is not making Fi "_tertiary_". Si is still tertiary. Once again, the standard order, which Beebe's shadows are an extension of, is not about strengths. It's also not about any "order of use", though Lenore's order would come closer to both.


Yet this not Beebe’s theory, Myers-Briggs claims there is an order of the functions as does Jung:


> A grouping of the unconscious functions also takes place in accordance with the relationship of the conscious functions. Thus, for instance, an unconscious intuitive feeling (N-F) attitude may correspond with a conscious practical intellect (T-S), whereby the function of feeling (N) suffers a relatively stronger inhibition than intuition (N). This peculiarity, however, is of interest only for one who is concerned with the practical psychological treatment of such cases. But for such a man it is important to know about it.


So to the contrary, Jung claims there are strengths. In fact he makes that clear throughout his theory. I will have to go back and read Lenore’s brain lateralization hypothesis.


Eric B said:


> It starts as four functions, and a dominant attitude: iTNSF. Whatever is chosen, its opposite will be placed further down in consciousness, and in the opposite orientation. It's basically a mirroring dynamic, with just two functions being "preferred", and the nonpreferred ones then falling into place beneath them in the opposite order.
> So if i and T are dominant, then e and F are inferior. If N is auxiliary, which is not as high as the dominant, then S will be lower, but not as low as the inferior.


We’re saying the same thing. However when we refer to tertiary and inferior, the compensatory functions for the dominant and auxiliary can never be so far down to render the functions unable to do what they are naturally placed there to do. So again, I will have to go back and read what Lenore was attempting to hypothesize. .


Eric B said:


> So she had placed what Beebe calls "the shadows" in between the "preferred" and "nonpreferred" blocks. This, again was based on the brain lateralization theory.
> And it's not about using opposing functions at the same time; it's what we turn to under stress.


This is about the only part that makes sense so far. If I understand you correctly, Lenore’s lasagna theory hypothesizes that as a dominant Ti-Ne type, you will go to Fi-Se under stress. It only makes sense in that it is plausible that we will switch to the other left-right brain perspective since they’re naturally in alignment with the most preferred functions.


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

Functianalyst said:


> Yet this not Beebe’s theory, Myers-Briggs claims there is an order of the functions as does Jung:So to the contrary, Jung claims there are strengths. In fact he makes that clear throughout his theory. I will have to go back and read Lenore’s brain lateralization hypothesis.


 Basically, with the first four, compared to each other, it will generally follow in that order in strength, because each successive function develops at a later age. (I know the tertiary is in the teens, and the inferior is in adulthood). 
What runs counter to this, is when the Puer complex forms around the tertiary, and "inflates" it. then, it might seem stronger than the aux. However, on the cognitive process test, it usually still comes out weak (on mine, it comes out right in third place).


> We’re saying the same thing. However when we refer to tertiary and inferior, the compensatory functions for the dominant and auxiliary can never be so far down to render the functions unable to do what they are naturally placed there to do. So again, I will have to go back and read what Lenore was attempting to hypothesize.


 She never says anything about then being "so far down". Like Beebe, she did not design her order to be about strength. I pointed out that the order is often close to people's cognitive process test "relative strengths" results, but that test is based on behavior, and not functions-as-perspectives. I believe there is truth in both ways of looking at it, but there is a distinction between your actual perceiving and judging process, and _behaviors_ associated with them.


> .This is about the only part that makes sense so far. If I understand you correctly, Lenore’s lasagna theory hypothesizes that as a dominant Ti-Ne type, you will go to Fi-Se under stress. It only makes sense in that it is plausible that we will switch to the other left-right brain perspective since they’re naturally in alignment with the most preferred functions.


 Correct.


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

Please read this new thread that might have been moved from here to the articles before you saw it. It seems to be quite a different approach to what these theories are saying.

http://personalitycafe.com/articles...ests-guide-understanding-function-theory.html


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## Sky Cat (Mar 21, 2011)

Hi DarkSideOfLife

I had a go at the Keys 2 Cognition Test, confirmed ENTP, and I have reordered the functions as for ENTP preferences:-

(Ne) ********************************** (34.8)
good use

(Ti) ***************************************** (41.1)
excellent use

(Fe) ******************************** (32.9)
good use 

(Si) ************************ (24.8)
average use

(Ni) ***************************** (29)
average use

(Te) **************************** (28.9)
average use

(Fi) ********************* (21.9)
limited use

(Se) ************************** (26.2)
average use

Notice how Ti is leading Ne. This makes sense as my mood is ascending at the moment. That is to say I've just been leading Fe (have been a right pre madonna at work), and am now Ti, heading up toward Ne. Must admit I do feel a bit INTP at the moment....

I expect Ne to arrive home in about 5 weeks time or so, i.e. about 20th of April. Hopefully I will stabilize there, but if not I'll give it a month before hypo-mania sets in and I exhaust myself and start sliding down through my functions again.

Ah well, life has its ups and downs, so I'll keep taking the lithium. :wink:

Thanks for the pointer,

Donald.


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## johndobbs (May 3, 2016)

Where can you find a test to obtain a score of these functions like this? --> Ne 48 > Ni 44.9 > Ti 41.3 > Se 36.1 > Te 32.9 > Fi 29.8 > Fe 6.2 > Si 1.2


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