# Let's talk about Religion



## Zeke (Sep 20, 2014)

Dice said:


> My parents don't know anything about this and the slightest comment about being be positive towards Catholics gets my mother all upset.


This is the problem with some of us. Some people are closeted agnostic or atheists. They just tend to go along and attend church anyway


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## Zeke (Sep 20, 2014)

@tanstaafl28 I feel the same.


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

Zeke said:


> @Grandmaster Yoda Ironically, they don't act like that towards other people. I apologize if I have offended you in someway though. It's just that the religions here in my country tick me off. You could clearly here one saying that if we don't believe in them, they will be the only one going to heaven.


I used to watch videos of Christians chastising the irreligious by saying this. Sometimes my mother says "I know this sounds crazy and you don't believe in God but if you accept his love you will have a much better life." I'm just sitting next to her thinking of how absolutely ridiculous that sounds. I think it would have been more effective to just give tough love to the guy she was talking to and I don't even recommend doing that.


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## Zeke (Sep 20, 2014)

Tough love means "it is better to slap a hand than to hold it. , right? Sorry english is not my native language. Fear is a very powerful manipulating tool. Just like how our country was colonized through the power of religion.


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## lightwing (Feb 17, 2013)

Religion should never be compulsory. That's how you end up with situations like your country and others where it is used as a tool for controlling the masses.


EDIT..sorry. Didn't realize this was the NTs forum until after the fact. Tapatalk app makes it easy to miss exactly what forum it is sometimes. Or rather I just wasn't paying attention.


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## Zeke (Sep 20, 2014)

@lightwing nah. It's nothing you should worry about. I don't care who talks here as long as it makes sense. Don't even know why I put the ENTP tag. 

It should never be! Yet there are some who baptize babies like it was their own choice. Ugh. Only few people can get out of this brainwashing.


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## Dice (Sep 20, 2014)

Zeke said:


> This is the problem with some of us. Some people are closeted agnostic or atheists. They just tend to go along and attend church anyway


I doubt we'll ever reach a time where it's fully accepted to be whatever. The positive liberty to freely choose means the people involved don't care enough which you are to get involved, which is against the nature of most religions and many strong atheists. To promote a acceptance of different religious beliefs, as admirable as it sounds, in practice ends up a backhanded call to not care for one another. 




Grandmaster Yoda said:


> I used to watch videos of Christians chastising the irreligious by saying this. Sometimes my mother says "I know this sounds crazy and you don't believe in God but if you accept his love you will have a much better life." I'm just sitting next to her thinking of how absolutely ridiculous that sounds. I think it would have been more effective to just give tough love to the guy she was talking to and I don't even recommend doing that.


Although there is the supernatural "you get blessings!" belief behind this, that silly argument could also be taken as "you'll have a better life if you have this worldview", which could totally be true. That said, I doubt she has any defenses to that argument and is just espousing the "you get blessings!" view.



lightwing said:


> Religion should never be compulsory. That's how you end up with situations like your country and others where it is used as a tool for controlling the masses.
> 
> 
> EDIT..sorry. Didn't realize this was the NTs forum until after the fact. Tapatalk app makes it easy to miss exactly what forum it is sometimes. Or rather I just wasn't paying attention.


As a Christian, I am with you, entirely. However, a lot of the major world religion practices are taken as humanistic practices. While the faith element itself has no use being required by law, other practices made to "control the masses" can benefit the masses. The best example of this we have in the modern day is all the laws we have to stop racism and discrimination. Don't immediately look down upon the idea of "controlling the masses". Politics is a tricky game.


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## Zeke (Sep 20, 2014)

> I doubt we'll ever reach a time where it's fully accepted to be whatever. The positive liberty to freely choose means the people involved don't care enough which you are to get involved, which is against the nature of most religions and many strong atheists. To promote a acceptance of different religious beliefs, as admirable as it sounds in practice, in practice ends up a backhanded call to not care for one another.



I'm with you on this. This kind of scenario is sad. But rather than not caring for one another. They should be caring more. I see this forcing act as more of a selfish thing to do. They're compelling other people their beliefs without thinking the consequences. Foolishly, they believe that they're right and nobody is. Just look at the discrimination we have in this world. Damn, living here is hard.


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## Dice (Sep 20, 2014)

Zeke said:


> I'm with you on this. This kind of scenario is sad. But rather than not caring for one another. They should be caring more. I see this forcing act as more of a selfish thing to do. They're compelling other people their beliefs without thinking the consequences. Foolishly, they believe that they're right and nobody is. Just look at the discrimination we have in this world. Damn, living here is hard.


Many of us make judgements before we put arguments behind them, moreso when dealing with social norms. If I were to ask you "Hey, my girlfriend just died. Want to have sex with her body with me?" no doubt you'd be shocked or surprised at the question first but you'd have an answer you'd be more inclined towards before a reasoning, I'm sure.

I don't think it can always be taken as selfish though. Maybe with the atheist-on-theist criticisms (maybe) or with Wiccas but with Abrahamic religion there is very humanistic teachings and the threat of where their soul goes so a lot of the worry about caring if someone follows your belief or not extends from a caring for the people around you and the idea of bettering the world around you.


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## Zeke (Sep 20, 2014)

Haha. Yeah. In simpler words, I hate these atheist-on-theist criticisms.


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## Wonszu (Sep 25, 2013)

Hello, fellow Deist here and Roman Catholic on paper too... <sigh> 

What to say... I leaved the Church because of different views (which I will save for later, it's late and I am sleepy) and very particular sects that are formed in Poland under the wings of Roman Catholic wings. Let's say that there is a small-big cult of Virgin Marry to the point it looks like they are praying to her instead of God which is contrary to their own ten commandments. They can spend hours on doing "kółka różańcowe" which is pretty much a gathering of people every week or day to just sit for an hour or longer and chant their prays using a rosary. It's mostly Hail Mary repeated over 50 times. Let's say I saw it a little bit insane. 

Off course I saw it weird but even if it doesn't suits me doesn't mean I don't respect people who believe in something. As long as they go along with other people believes that is. I respect every open minded person - Atheist, Buddhist, Catholic and so on - as long they don't push their agendas and believes in someone else throat. Sadly there is to many numb heads who love showing off their superiority by either thinking their religion makes them "the chosen ones" or not believing at all and throwing scientific facts and theories. I'm to old for bickering like this... 

Obviously I don't believe in predestination either - why would God give us a free will and then be like "mmm you know, you have a brain and all that stuff I gave you myself but I think I have a better idea for you and I will lead you through the life by holding your hand". Like God has nothing better to do than helping people all the time or playing Sims with them. Still some people need some motivation to solve some problems (only some though) and if thinking that God will help them then let them believe, they will work out their own solution. The only annoying part will be if they succeed and say that was all God's working. Oh well... if they won't do this in obnoxious way then let them be happy, at least they will be motivated enough to work by themselves with other problems. Somewhat. 

And if someone doesn't believe in enything? Well, it's okey too as long they live in moral way and are good and respectful people.


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## Zeke (Sep 20, 2014)

So-somebody give this guy a medal!! This is well-versed. I'm with you all throughout to what you said. I just abhor those close-minded people. Well, of course not all of them.


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## intpisces (Sep 15, 2014)

I was raised Baptist, my family is religious. I went to church a few times a week every week until i was 14. I began questioning things and thinking/researching for the answer to how it all worked. I now consider myself agnostic. I find religion and the history of it interesting and I enjoy learning about it. My family does treat me differently because of my views. My grandmother sat beside me bawling telling me that i was going to hell if I didn't believe. I wasn't sure what to say or do, So I just sat there.. There really seems to be no point in discussing it with them.


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## Zeke (Sep 20, 2014)

intpisces said:


> My family does treat me differently because of my views. My grandmother sat beside me bawling telling me that i was going to hell if I didn't believe. I wasn't sure what to say or do, So I just sat there.. There really seems to be no point in discussing it with them.


 HAHAHAHAHAHA lol. Sorry I just can't help myself laughing. Damn.. that's awkward


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## intpisces (Sep 15, 2014)

very awkward.. Especially awkward when she bought me a bible for christmas!! hah!! :dry:


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## Zeke (Sep 20, 2014)

How did you react then? I actually enjoy reading bible stories. I have a friend whose religion gives free books like that. I personally asked for one. I have to say the stories are fun to read.


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## intpisces (Sep 15, 2014)

It was a very nice bible, I told her thank you. I still have it, but have not really read it.. My husband is religious so he enjoys it more than I do. I would rather read wikipedia for information on religion. lol


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## Zeke (Sep 20, 2014)

You guys (your husband) don't have conflicts when it comes to religion? Do you still attend church or something nowadays?


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## O_o (Oct 22, 2011)

But no ill feelings. I enjoy participating for the sake of half very religious roman catholic family and half very religious muslim family. My dad and I share this boat. . 

@Wonszu. I like your signature buggy wuggy.


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## Zeke (Sep 20, 2014)

@O_o Hmm.. Look at this if I got right. You're in stuck in a family that the half supports Islam's teaching and the other half believes in the Roman Catholic's dogma?


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## O_o (Oct 22, 2011)

Zeke said:


> @__ Hmm.. Look at this if I got right. You're in stuck in a family that the half supports Islam's teaching and the other half believes in the Roman Catholic's dogma?


Yup. My dad is roman catholic (along with his etc), my mom is muslim (along with her etc) and both of them are indifferent to the differences. This results in half of the family teaching and enforcing one and the other side enforcing another. 

It's really simple to go along with the flow. The two aren't all that different. Muslims accept Christ as a prophet. And of course, I'm very indifferent because I don't buy either.


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## Zeke (Sep 20, 2014)

@O_o How do you guys act in an instance where both sides have a different opinion? I can't think of one. But you know what I mean right?


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## O_o (Oct 22, 2011)

Zeke said:


> @__ How do you guys act in an instance where both sides have a different opinion? I can't think of one. But you know what I mean right?


Well, with my parents that's never an issue since both are pretty indifferent as well. 
The two side of our families are basically never together. We never have family dinners with them or anything. They never meet up. My mom's family is in Bosnia and my dad's is in Croatia and the last time they were all together was at their wedding (a catholic wedding. So there was a scenes and fits... apparently). But since there's never a mix, there's rarely a problem.


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## Aiwass (Jul 28, 2014)

Good that I found a term that describes my views on the subject -- I am an ignostic. What the hell is God? What are its properties and characteristics? I cannot claim to believe in or not in a concept which is not fully explained and understood in the first place.

But I am definitely an atheist when it comes to the Christian god. At the end of the day, I must admit I've never heard of a straight line of logic that supports the existence of such God, I have not seen this God, I haven't had any contact with this God and in fact, the Bible itself makes it hard to believe in this entity.


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## Dice (Sep 20, 2014)

hannahdonot said:


> Good that I found a term that describes my views on the subject -- I am an ignostic. What the hell is God? What are its properties and characteristics? I cannot claim to believe in or not in a concept which is not fully explained and understood in the first place.
> 
> But I am definitely an atheist when it comes to the Christian god. At the end of the day, I must admit I've never heard of a straight line of logic that supports the existence of such God, I have not seen this God, I haven't had any contact with this God and in fact, the Bible itself makes it hard to believe in this entity.


Perhaps Baha'i would be more your thing.


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## starscream430 (Jan 14, 2014)

I am a baptized Seventh-day Adventist, which is an offshoot of the mainstream Protestant church. I do believe in the existence of God, but I also am a bit open-minded in regards to the other religions. If God is truly all-wise and all-good, I don't think he'll just outright decimate all the other religious groups. I also am quite critical of strong-willed conservatives who believe that all gays will burn in hell and say that evolution is completely wrong (I personally believe that God could've caused the machinations of evolution to happen).

In short, I am a Christian with a holistic view on both my religion and other beliefs.


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## intpisces (Sep 15, 2014)

Zeke said:


> You guys (your husband) don't have conflicts when it comes to religion? Do you still attend church or something nowadays?


My husband and I are able to discuss religion without getting into arguments, he knows i am too stubborn to be "swayed". He does not attend church often, but I have gone every now and then with him and sometimes with my family. It is my way of showing that I am not against their beliefs, but if they want to discuss it with me, I stand my ground on what I believe. 

When it comes time to have children, I told my husband that I would like for them to be raised with his religious beliefs. I feel that it is "easier" to fit in by being a religious person in the area I live (Southern Mississippi) Terrible to say that, but it is the truth.


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## Zeke (Sep 20, 2014)

@O_o good for you buddy. It's just that I don't see this kind of scenario working. It's because for me if you have a family you get this feeling that you want to be with them as much as you could. Religious (if you have one) activities is one of them.


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## Zeke (Sep 20, 2014)

@hannahdonot Fair point. For me, I find the definition deist accurate for my beliefs. I do believe in God's existence. I just don't have any evidence/proofs to support it. A gut feeling. Haha. I think you'll find the arguments of the believers being debunk. Search for Aquinas' ontological argument.


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## Zeke (Sep 20, 2014)

@starscream430 one of the best way to see these things indeed.


> If God is truly all-wise and all-good, I don't think he'll just outright decimate all the other religious groups.


 I'm a deist myself. And we believe that there's a Creator but he doesn't meddle with the things here in earth. Ergo, Divine intervention is not something we believe in. Believing the Creator's existence is only a gut feeling I have, so I can't support any facts or anything


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## O_o (Oct 22, 2011)

Zeke said:


> @__ good for you buddy. It's just that I don't see this kind of scenario working. It's because for me if you have a family you get this feeling that you want to be with them as much as you could. Religious (if you have one) activities is one of them.


Sir, I assure you that it more than works. None of my family is currently in the states and we see them for a few weeks every year in each of their countries (like mentioned, one side in Bosnia and the other in Croatia). I assure you that the two sides don't interact, there are never any grand dinner gatherings, no such thing as Thanksgiving. Just yearly roasting of the lamb (and no one in Bosnia has any money or will to drive 6 hours to join us).


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## Zeke (Sep 20, 2014)

@intpisces If what you're saying is true, then I'm sorry. You have to be somebody so that you can fit in a society? This is evident in different parts of the world, it is indeed terrible. It's quite problematic for people who are different and unique and against the norms. Now this made me think. Will I let my children (I'm 17 so this is a little weird to think about) follow a religion (i.e. my wife's or mine if ever change) or let them choose in the right age and be different than the other kids as they grow up? Damn life sure is complicated.


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## Zeke (Sep 20, 2014)

@O_o


O_o said:


> I assure you that the two sides don't interact


 I'm sorry if I'm going into some personal matters of yours. But this is exactly my point. They don't interact just so they could not have any arguments/conflicts because they different beliefs. Wouldn't it be more fun if they get to hangout with each other? Haha Hope you don't mind. Shall I continue? It's just that I think this is way too personal for stranger like me to detest/meddle with.


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## Zeke (Sep 20, 2014)

@O_o


O_o said:


> I assure you that the two sides don't interact


 I'm sorry if I'm going into some personal matters of yours. But this is exactly my point. They don't interact just so they could not have any arguments/conflicts because they have different beliefs. Wouldn't it be more fun if they get to hangout with each other? Haha Hope you don't mind. Shall I continue? It's just that I think this is way too personal for stranger like me to detest/meddle with.


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## O_o (Oct 22, 2011)

Zeke said:


> @__ I'm sorry if I'm going into some personal matters of yours. But this is exactly my point. They don't interact just so they could not have any arguments/conflicts because they different beliefs. Wouldn't it be more fun if they get to hangout with each other? Haha Hope you don't mind. Shall I continue? It's just that I think this is way too personal for stranger like me to detest/meddle with.


I wouldn't care how much a stranger knows about my family situation, I'm open to discussing just about anything regarding my life because how someone takes that in isn't a concern of mine, I don't think. Would be kind of silly to detest something my family (people who have nothing to do with you) do or don't do, though. 

They don't interact because they each have their own lives, they're far away and the majority of them don't have much of a luxury to be able to travel nor the will the hang out with people they barely know (if really know at all). I don't think it's that strange for two sides of the family to not be that close. I'm more or less... indifferent to whether they hung out or not, but I wouldn't want anyone feeling uncomfortable because of it.


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## intpisces (Sep 15, 2014)

Zeke said:


> @intpisces If what you're saying is true, then I'm sorry. You have to be somebody so that you can fit in a society? This is evident in different parts of the world, it is indeed terrible. It's quite problematic for people who are different and unique and against the norms. Now this made me think. Will I let my children (I'm 17 so this is a little weird to think about) follow a religion (i.e. my wife's or mine if ever change) or let them choose in the right age and be different than the other kids as they grow up? Damn life sure is complicated.


When my children are at the age where they are able to think for themselves, I would love for them to believe whatever they choose.


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## Helweh18 (Jul 30, 2013)

cccxxix said:


> google is love.
> Google is light.
> Google is life.


lmao


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## Dice (Sep 20, 2014)

intpisces said:


> When my children are at the age where they are able to think for themselves, I would love for them to believe whatever they choose.


You are aware if they choose an Abrahamic religion they will care what their loved ones and future kin believe, right?


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## Zeke (Sep 20, 2014)

@O_o sorry if I was interfering in your life. It's just that when I imagine I'm in your scenario, I got this feeling that it wouldn't work. I respect your decisions though.


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