# What is so-first?



## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

enneathusiast said:


> Yeah, I used to try to think about what subcultures would be satisfying for me to participate in or even create. When I began to imagine more realistically what that experience would be like, I would find there was always some point at which I'd just get lost in the shuffle and see no point to participating anymore (maybe it's a feeling of irrelevance).
> 
> The kind of group that appeals to me now is one that can help me learn more about what interests me. Schools don't do it because they simply try to force a learning upon you whereas I'd rather go where my interests take me. This seems to always lead back to self-study and sometimes forums like this one.


That's interesting. So would you say this has changed? Like as in something that no longer appeals to you? You still seem to have an awareness of social issues e.g social environments such as schools but have a disdain for the over structuredness of it. And yes, social environments are lucrative places to share ideas and information, so it seems like you wern't seeking the environment but what it contained information-wise.


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## Sonny (Oct 14, 2008)

So doesn't actually mean Social. So connecting it to a 'social realm' sets you up to misunderstand it. 

Being aware of group dynamics and having a drive to seek belonging doesn't mean that someone actually participates in groups or is engaged in any way.



enneathusiast said:


> It's when people claim so-first and they don't seem to be seeking that ideal group or culture that doesn't make sense to me.


Why would So dom have anything to do with seeking an ideal group or culture? That sounds like Sx standards being pushed onto a different typing. If So doms are seeking anything, it would be a sense of belonging, a place where they fit in however this does not mean they are actively working towards it, will ever find it or that there is any limit as to the amount of groups/cultures they can find a sense of it in.



enneathusiast said:


> The claim seems to be that they're so-first because they're strongly cued in on the negatives of the social. By itself, that says social-last to me.


There is a difference with overall disinterest for yourself and general annoyance for an instinct in others v a focus/priority that can be unbalanced.

If So is a fixation then it is likely the primary instinct, weather this plays out in social or asocial ways.

So last would not have a fixation on So things, they would be irrelevant, boring, unnecessary and only come into focus when pushed on by others or held back because of something that doesn't come naturally. Typically a So last would simply not care about So things.



enneathusiast said:


> To me, social is more about a collective that the individual is expected to fit into (whether it be conforming or leading or something else). The group to me is more of a singular entity that individuals are expected to become a part of. If it's just a bunch of people who just let me be me then it doesn't feel like social to me - there are no expectations that I be other than myself. I'm just being me in a different environment. There's no social instinct kicking in and all that goes with it.


You've placed an onus of action onto the So instinct, or at least made it about more than the individual. So is about observation above all else, noticing the interactions and dynamics, weather one seeks to manipulate or join into that is individual. 

So sounds like the Borg with how you describe it.



enneathusiast said:


> If this collection becomes a community, the bylaws and expectations begin to appear, sometimes made formally explicit and sometimes something you begin to realize only by developing a sense for them. As this progresses, expectations are placed on you to be a certain way if you don't want to be excluded. Then people have to watch to make sure others are meeting these expectations - we can't have them not living up to their responsibilities. What kind of people should be included and excluded - the leaders of the community begin to shape it's culture. And so forth.
> 
> I think someone who's social-first understands and accepts all this and wants to play this game in order to get the privileges, status, etc. that come with participation.


No thanks. A So dom may understand and accept it as something inevitable and enjoy the feeling of community, however So dom is not about policing others, noticing when social norms are not followed does not mean we are going to care or do anything about it nor is the image presented a ride So doms would jump on by default of being So. 

Take networking for example, So doms can be naturally skilled in this area because of how we can read interpersonal interactions and social norms, however understanding something, does not mean that we can rock a work event, in practice we may be uncomfortable, bored or shy about it all. The natural leading towards a skill does not mean someone has it.

Likewise understanding and accepting that society operates a certain way and being aware of status, does not mean we will play that game.



enneathusiast said:


> I've got mixed feelings right now about sharing my take on all this. Because the traditional concepts of the instincts don't fit reality for me I've defined them in a different way that I find more accurate and useful. I'm just not sure I should be calling them the instincts and presenting them that way. I may be muddying the water for a lot of people here. Maybe someone else (hopefully sp-first) should answer that.


Depends on if you want to understand So or redefine it to explain something else? Because based on how you would define it I wouldn't be a So dom, and yet in the Enneagram Instincts system I am.


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## Pelopra (May 21, 2013)

So here's the question:

A life that consisted exclusively of multiple one-on-one bonds never cohering into something bigger ---
is that something an SO-first would find frustrating?

To me, once the group is present, I'm obviously going to prefer not being excluded. Certainly there's something nice about being an accepted part of the group, and an enjoyment of playing a key role in it. 
But I really view all that stuff as... bonuses?

Do SO-firsts find that feeling essential to the extent that I find it vital to have a safe spot, a sense of self protected by privacy, and knowing that when i need help there are people (close friends etc) who have my back?
Does not having a social group make an SO-first feel as unsafe and unsettled as having a stranger as a roommate makes me?

My feeling of comfort at transitioning into completely new places where I know no one and patiently finding relationships as they come in my direction-- where would that place SO in my ranking? Higher, because I'm doing okay at it, or lower, because I'm doing okay via neglect? Is being in a new social milieu something that stresses SO-firsts out?
Because I know, for me, that having my same social group available, but not having a safe home base, is much much much more stress inducing than having a safe home base and starting from scratch socially (which is not the same as having a really negative social experience--- can't comment on active ostracization because I haven't experienced it, that I'm aware of... so this isn't a totally fair comparison because I'm comparing -/+ with 0/+ which obviously isn't quite fair.)
(I'm not sure what sx stress would be-- I drive my relationships _relentlessly_ deeper, but I don't stress about it that I've noticed. Sx stresses I've noticed in my life are when sp takes over way too much and I realize I'm stifling myself because it feels "safer" but actually i'm suffocating and feel totally dead inside.)



blablabla tl;dr my point is, what is it that SO can survive without that sp,sx can't, and what is it that SO needs that sp,sx manage just fine?


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Myoho Traveller said:


> @_enneathusiast_, as an So/Sx; while I prefer my alone time, I am constantly obsessing about how much more successful is than I am or how much better they fit in, have better friendships etc. I also have trouble just thinking of myself and not being aware of how my behaviour impacts others and vice-versa.
> 
> *Whenver I am in a group; I am always jealously comparing myself to others and how I never measure up. I put on this nonchalant face, like I don't care but I live and die in the face of others' rejection. * I would die before I would ever actually admit this to anyone, however.





enneathusiast said:


> *I have something similar happen as so-last. When in a group I am strongly aware of my deficiencies compared to others in their ability to participate and be a part of that group.* What seems so natural to them is mostly a mystery to me. I'm very aware of how this negatively impacts me (especially in the work place). So in that way, I do envy others' social abilities. But, my reaction is usually one of just giving up on attaining those abilities and simply avoiding the social if possible. What I experience as so-last in myself is the realization that I'm just not good at dealing with that realm, I resent that I'm expected to, and I tend to avoid it and spend time doing my own thing or being with people one-on-one.


I've been trying to figure out my instinct- Sx/So or Sx/Sp.

These two posts are interesting. I spend 90% of my time alone. My social life is mostly PerC atm, and I'm fine with that. None of my friends live around here any more and I'm writing a novel, biding my time until I can move away one day, but meantime staying in my hometown near my parents, taking care of my health & chronic illness and doing my creative work. I don't miss having a social life though I miss having a lover/boyfriend.

I have thousands of facebook friends/fans because I use it to promote music etc. and just talk to real friends over facebook PM. I have no shortage of real friends; never did. Even in the past when I only had one or two real friends, I never thought about wanting more friends. I'm happy if I have one person I can talk to. As a young teen, I didn't even talk to anyone that much; I was focused on a theater/music career. As an adult, for about 8 months a couple years back, I barely spoke to anyone at all and just drafted books 1 and 2 for my fantasy series. Now that I'm editing it's a bit more excruciating so I take breaks to socialize via PerC. 

However in social situations, I'm not worried about fitting in or not. I speak in a whisper because of chronic illness, so it's hard for me to be heard, and it causes people to ask me immediately, "Whats wrong with your voice" aka "What's wrong with you?" .. so I try to avoid conversation. However even with this disability/ weirdness, I don't feel particularly annoyed by the fact that I don't fit in, or stand out for a bad reason. I don't particularly enjoy big groups, and I am a leader/loner type (outside the context of relationships, but even then, I still appear socially more often as a loner) …. but the whole socializing thing isn't particularly_ awkward_ for me. Sure, the voice issue is annoying, but only because sometimes I really want to talk to one person, usually a gorgeous or interesting guy, and he can't hear me over the crowd. So I have to compete with other women by using my eyes or body language. I play eye contact games to get the attention of an SX-target.

I don't fit into groups, but I don't care. I have no desire to, nor do I have any desire not to. What usually ends up happening socially is, I make a few strong SX connections and introduce them to each other. Then the group forms and operates without me, but also "around me." For instance they all call me and ask, what are we doing tonight? I tell them to call each other. Then they call me and say "Want to come to X's house?" and I respond, "Maybe I'll show up." More than once, I've been named "the sun" or "the leader" and been told by people in my social circle that it "revolves around me" but I still don't identify as being part of a group. I'm the outsider, the leader, the loner, but not _part of_ it. However, the way that groups seem to form around me when I'm not even trying to do that, makes me think that I'm not particularly socially awkward. Even though my type 5 friend, ironically, makes fun of me for being so _intensely quiet _when we're out in public and so talkative when we're one-on-one.

Where SX/ romantic situations are concerned, I am awkward, I overthink everything, I interpret everything as rejection , etc. I go over and over and over my 'moves' and my words in my mind, blaming myself for every blunder. I go over and over and over his every word, trying to figure out whether he cares about me or not, and what kind of person he is. I am self-conscious like no other. I'll go out into my town and feel self conscious on the very basis that a certain guy might show up. But when I'm in another town, and there's no chance of him showing up, then I'm free and not self-conscious or worried to that degree (though sometimes if I do stupid things I'll become self-conscious of course, and I am always conscious of 'how I would look from the outside', but that doesn't register as a bad/ uncomfortable thing, unless I'm in the presence of a guy I am interested in).

Anyway, I don't experience the intense social awkwardness described, so I am probably thinking So-second. I'm wondering how other people's second instinct operates.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Animal said:


> I've been trying to figure out my instinct- Sx/So or Sx/Sp.
> 
> These two posts are interesting. I spend 90% of my time alone. My social life is mostly PerC atm, and I'm fine with that. None of my friends live around here any more and I'm writing a novel, biding my time until I can move away one day, but meantime staying in my hometown near my parents, taking care of my health & chronic illness and doing my creative work. I don't miss having a social life though I miss having a lover/boyfriend.
> 
> ...


Maybe, this will help you decide?

http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-forum-individualist/9158-type-four-variant-stackings.html


> Sexual/Self-pres
> 
> This is a very volatile type. They are driven to form connections but have very high demands of their partners. When their powerful fantasies don’t match reality, they become very restless. They take the fire and passion of the sexual instinct and turn it inward. This can cause both brooding and fiery outbursts. Dramatic mood swings are very likely with this type. This subtype of Four could be considered the most classic Four, because of the way they seem to embody the archetype of the tortured artist, although not all Fours of this subtype are artists. Stereotype aside, this subtype does tend to bring their emotions into focus more readily then the other subtypes of Four. What is under the surface with the self-pres/sexual is now bubbling to the surface. This subtype can resemble type Seven because of their drama, passion for experience and tendency to suffer from frustration when life seems dull. Like type Seven, they can seem to throw themselves into experience.
> 
> ...


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@_Myoho Traveller_

The worst part is the part I don't want to admit

"They can go from relationship to relationship, seemingly tortured by each one."
:bored:

I've read those descriptions before, and even when I was so sure I was Sx/Sp, every time I read that sentence I cringed.

To be fair to myself I'm usually single for many years between relationships, but I build up crushes and people I can't have for years and years, and I am tortured by each one. I am also tortured by the ones that turn into relationships, and the ones that end. There is nothing "seemingly" about it, unfortunately.


To draw a sharp contrast, I'm not tortured by social circles breaking up, though I can look back at them fondly. In retrospect - like 10 years later - THEN I can start to mourn the loss of a social circle or a better time. But it's the last thing on my mind while it drifts apart. And if I mourn it at all, it's usually because there was a guy in that social circle and I want to relive the experiences I shared with that particular person. Or in the case of bands breaking up, I want to play shows & be on stage again doing my music, so I miss that, but it's not really the 'people' that I miss; more the whole experience.


My socially-dominant 4w5 friend was tortured when our social circle broke up, but I was only tortured by losing _him_. The social context we shared was nice because it brought us closer and also provided a context to play music, which.. music might qualify as SX-focus or SX-expression, or so I have been told.



Speaking of self-absorption, I also have a strong tendency to miss my past self and wish I could be that person again. I also wish I could go back to the past and change my bad decisions, but that is probably universal. However the degree to which I miss it is not universal - I will write long books and songs and play them over and over. I'll recreate scenarios through videos or photography. I will do anything to go back, to be with the person I was once close to, or to change those past errors through characters. I crave my past so tremendously that I have to recreate it and bring it to the present, though it's never really here, so I am never fully satisfied. My dreams are so powerful, so intense, more real than reality sometimes.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Animal said:


> @_Myoho Traveller_
> 
> The worst part is the part I don't want to admit
> 
> ...


I relate to experiencing romantic relationships as somewhat "torture". I prefer to focus on developing friendships or a career; as I have a crippling fear of being engulfed.

I am trying to decide between these:



> Social/Self-pres
> 
> This subtype can mimic type One when it comes to social values. They can be harsh critics of the current mores. *They have romantic ideals of what the world should be like; reality always falls short. Ironically, this type can be the most withdrawn of the Fours. Social anxiety combines with the Four's shame issues to make this type feel that the pressure associated with "fitting in" is just not worth it. They are also the most likely of the Fours to intellectualize their emotions and in this way resemble type Five.
> 
> ...


Honestly, I relate to both the Sp and the So descriptions. I think that I am an So based on that my envy is mostly triggered by other people's friends, career success, accomplishments etc. than either intimate relationships or security. It's also possible to have pretty balanced instincts but I'm pretty sure that I am not an Sx first.


ETA: I just noticed your edit




Animal said:


> My socially-dominant 4w5 friend was tortured when our social circle broke up, but I was only tortured by losing him. The social context we shared was nice because it brought us closer and also provided a context to play music, which.. music might qualify as SX-focus or SX-expression, or so I have been told.
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of self-absorption, I also have a strong tendency to miss my past self and wish I could be that person again. I also wish I could go back to the past and change my bad decisions, but that is probably universal. However the degree to which I miss it is not universal - I will write long books and songs and play them over and over. I'll recreate scenarios through videos or photography. I will do anything to go back, to be with the person I was once close to, or to change those past errors through characters. I crave my past so tremendously that I have to recreate it and bring it to the present, though it's never really here, so I am never fully satisfied. My dreams are so powerful, so intense, more real than reality sometimes.


Yes, I can definitely relate to your So dom 4w5 friend. One of the reasons I love being a Nichiren Buddhist is that it is the only group that I feel somewhat comfortable with and the have bimonthly meetings where I get to interact with all of these cool, spiritually focused and caring people.

I relate to the part about missing your past. I often long for the me I was before I got sick as well, I always feel that my life suffered tremendously when my father passed away. It was then that I developed a severed case of agoraphobia. I have never really felt "safe" ever since.


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

Yeah, agreed with @_Sonny_ that Social isn't about being "social." Back when I thought my variant was Self Pres, I justified it with staying in a lot, putting a lot of effort and time into making my apartment the way I wanted it to be, financial planning, choosing the right foods, finding a physical outlet, etc. What I realized was that these were not the result of a funnel of my type to "surviving" - they were a means of maintaining the ideal standard of living that I think someone "is supposed to" follow. 1 and So together form this kind of person who was "already perfect" with respect to whatever ideas of civility they learned as children, and I grew up in an Self Pres household where these things were considered to be extremely important. 

I really don't tend to focus much about how something is going to happen or whether all parts of a plan are correct - but I DO put a lot of thought into whether things I say are accurate, as close to undeniable as possible, and constructive. I tend to notice, in a group, who has valuable input and who is deemed an idiot and needs to move out of the way. When I try and do or say something, my intent is that it addresses a common problem even if it's from my own, personal POV - and if what I say or do has an issue, I really beat myself up for it. Somehow, a canceled flight for any reason irritates me less than someone who cuts in line to check into an on-time one. I think I've said this before as well, but if I'm in a group where I know I won't be judged for being less than diligent, I'll let some pretty crass, obscene, ridiculous behavior out of the bag. 

Overall, to understand one's instinct I think a deep understanding of the core fixation needs to be seen as an expression of the instinct as a frame. To which direction is the fixation directed, etc.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Figure said:


> Yeah, agreed with @Sonny that Social isn't about being "social."
> 
> Overall, to understand one's instinct I think a deep understanding of the core fixation needs to be seen as an expression of the instinct as a frame. To which direction is the fixation directed, etc.


Yes, I too agree with @Sonny; your #1 instinct is wherever your vice or passion is the strongest. I find my envy gets triggered the most when people talk about their wonderful friend and family, their accomplishments, career success and yes, their social status. I have an inner shame about not really feeling that I fit in and envy people who do. The second and last instincts are closer together but I think I have a slight degree more envy for people who are in a successful relationship than for people whose security needs are all taken care of but they're pretty close as I tend to equate security=freedom but I doubt that I'll be truly fulfilled until I make something of myself in the eyes of society.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

mushr00m said:


> That's interesting. So would you say this has changed? Like as in something that no longer appeals to you? You still seem to have an awareness of social issues e.g social environments such as schools but have a disdain for the over structuredness of it. And yes, social environments are lucrative places to share ideas and information, so it seems like you wern't seeking the environment but what it contained information-wise.


I think it may be that I was hoping for a sort of sx-fulfillment in groups. I've said somewhere else that sx for me is about growing with someone - the other person enhances me and I the other. I realized that the social, or groups, just can't provide that for me because of how they're structured. Social feels like the individual gets watered down into compromise - the individual gets lost in the group. Sexual feels the opposite - like the individual is charged and enriched realizing more of their individual potential - the two sx individuals feed off each other in that way when it's ideal.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Sonny said:


> Why would So dom have anything to do with seeking an ideal group or culture? That sounds like Sx standards being pushed onto a different typing. If So doms are seeking anything, it would be a sense of belonging, a place where they fit in however this does not mean they are actively working towards it, will ever find it or that there is any limit as to the amount of groups/cultures they can find a sense of it in.


Part of why I stated it as seeking an ideal group or culture was the implication that the so doesn't want to belong to all groups or just any group. If we call it belonging, then I don't see the so-first wanting to belong to all groups or just any group but to a group where they feel they fit in and they get what they want out of it.

The reason I see the so-first as seeking a group is that I define the first instinct as the one you seek. 

Perhaps you're talking about so in general (as in the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd instinct). I'm trying to understand it as so-first.



Sonny said:


> So sounds like the Borg with how you describe it.


LOL,that would be to the extreme negative but I don't see that as reality. Sometimes my so-last bias shows through when I get on a roll.



Sonny said:


> A So dom may understand and accept it as something inevitable and enjoy the feeling of community, however So dom is not about policing others, noticing when social norms are not followed does not mean we are going to care or do anything about it nor is the image presented a ride So doms would jump on by default of being So.


Perhaps you're not doing the policing as an so9 but do you feel like you're being policed or watched as to whether you're fitting in appropriately? With so, it's not always what you're doing, it's the expectations of others. It's primarily those expectations that turn me off the social.



Sonny said:


> Take networking for example, So doms can be naturally skilled in this area because of how we can read interpersonal interactions and social norms, however understanding something, does not mean that we can rock a work event, in practice we may be uncomfortable, bored or shy about it all. The natural leading towards a skill does not mean someone has it.


I can see that. To me the "game" is being included in the group. From there, I think type takes over as to whether you'll try to lead,, blend in, etc.



Sonny said:


> Depends on if you want to understand So or redefine it to explain something else? Because based on how you would define it I wouldn't be a So dom, and yet in the Enneagram Instincts system I am.


I don't really care about the conceptualization or naming of it - I want to know the experience that people are having. The difficulty I think lies in the stacking aspect for me. I wouldn't necessarily be redefining what so is but looking for the elements of that experience. I might be redefining what so-first means however vs. what someone else's interpretation of that is.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Figure said:


> Overall, to understand one's instinct I think a deep understanding of the core fixation needs to be seen as an expression of the instinct as a frame. To which direction is the fixation directed, etc.


I agree in the sense that your primary instinct has to do with where you're wanting to direct your type and where it feels most rewarding to do so.

Your last instinct to me has more to do with the frustration of even trying to direct your type toward it because it just doesn't work for you there - so why bother.


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## Sonny (Oct 14, 2008)

enneathusiast said:


> Part of why I stated it as seeking an ideal group or culture was the implication that the so doesn't want to belong to all groups or just any group. If we call it belonging, then I don't see the so-first wanting to belong to all groups or just any group but to a group where they feel they fit in and they get what they want out of it.
> 
> The reason I see the so-first as seeking a group is that I define the first instinct as the one you seek.
> 
> Perhaps you're talking about so in general (as in the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd instinct). I'm trying to understand it as so-first.


My focus is So as the dominant instinct. Of course all that I have read is still filtered via my own personal experience which includes being a 9 and having Sx secondary, I feel confident I can remove those aspects from most of what I write, however I am certain that bias still exists as I only experience one way of being, I do try to express when I am talking of personal experience not the So type in general that should be consistent for all.

My personal experience with groups, I have this internal drive, almost a craving to have a sense of belonging to groups, not one but many, one of the most enjoyable experiences for me is walking into an existing environment and feeling a sense of community, like people here look after each other, they are all individuals doing their own thing, no one is being told what to do or who to be however the pains of one of them matter to all of them. This is an idealistic and ime an unrealistic take, scratch under the surface of any community and you'll find disagreements, conflicts, unstated disruptions with others, these things are not static and that lasting feeling of community does not stay. So I am forever driven to find that sense of community, I seek out common interests with groups and tag along, however I never join, I am never part of, I stay on the fringes observing and never feeling a sense of belonging. I will never achieve what you suggest a So dom should, this is why it's my fixation, if I was not So I would not care about this, I would join, or not and that would be the end of it there would be no eternal quest for that sense of community.

So yes, in an important sense I am "group seeking" however if you observe my behaviours and patterns you would probably not see that, as I do not remain in any group and when I am in group environments I am somewhat emotionally distant expecting to not fit.



> LOL,that would be to the extreme negative but I don't see that as reality. Sometimes my so-last bias shows through when I get on a roll.


XD all good, there is a distinction between how So lasters perceive So dom due to their own experience, and what So is as a dominant function. If you were to get me ranting about Sp doms I would be full of stereotypes about materialistic elements of the instinct, this is because in other aspects such as independence I can personally relate therefore as a blindspot the things that I do not relate to become "Sp" for me. I am aware of this bias though, which is what matters.



> Perhaps you're not doing the policing as an so9 but do you feel like you're being policed or watched as to whether you're fitting in appropriately? With so, it's not always what you're doing, it's the expectations of others. It's primarily those expectations that turn me off the social.


If people have to add conditional elements to a claim, such as "I'm an Introverted So, therefore I don't do that", or the suggestion that as a So 9 I wont do something, then it's not about So, it's about a combination of factors and these other elements need to be investigated to see what is bias, lack of understanding, stereotypes or a compounding issue that has basis.

As a So 9 judging and policing others would be contrary to my nature, you are correct that the 9 is relevant here, but does this mean 9 contradicts So, or that the image of So policing is corrupted by something else that has been erroneously linked to So? My claim is it's the latter, or rather there is an additional step external to So that is required for a So dom to do that. A So dom notices social norms as well as how others fit within them (or not), add to that, we are inclined to stick to them ourselves as well, however weather or not we push those standards on others relies on other factors. A So dom E1 probably would be inclined to hold others to their standards, which with the So element means social correctness, this requires the additional element of Enneagram type, which is therefore not So, the outcome is influenced by their instinct is all as it reflects a focus/fixation.

Personally there are forms of not following social norms that I adore seeing, I appreciate individualism, I do also appreciate politeness, I do not consider those to clash as while I may personally be inclined to the latter, my appreciation of the former means I would not judge someone else for not doing as I do.



> I can see that. To me the "game" is being included in the group. From there, I think type takes over as to whether you'll try to lead,, blend in, etc.


Sure, however I take it back one step further than you are going, to the seeking, I personally don't play a game to be included, I am quite asocial because of my preoccupation to feel belonging seems to be a permanent itch that can never be satisfied, so like @Wandering Soul said early in the thread about a "defense mechanism to avoid further disappointment", I actively push groups away or exclude myself from them on a fairly regular basis.





Pelopra said:


> So here's the question:
> 
> A life that consisted exclusively of multiple one-on-one bonds never cohering into something bigger ---
> is that something an SO-first would find frustrating?
> ...


The presence of a fixation does not tell you how that person will behave. I find great value in deep one-on-one connections, groups satisfy a different need for me is all.

So does not have a magic number for it to be considered a group and take care of the So needs though, a group can be as small as two and give the So dom that desired sense of belonging to a team, or it could be their immediate family.



> Do SO-firsts find that feeling essential to the extent that I find it vital to have a safe spot, a sense of self protected by privacy, and knowing that when i need help there are people (close friends etc) who have my back?
> Does not having a social group make an SO-first feel as unsafe and unsettled as having a stranger as a roommate makes me?


I am my own island in this regard. I look after my own needs and do not rely on others, a sense of belonging is brilliant and something I seek however I have issues with vulnerability wing 8 style so do not rely on others for feelings of safety. I am typically without a distinct social group that I feel I belong with even if there are groups I can hang with and plenty of others out there who would include me if I engaged. 

The sense of security you speak of is most reflective of your E6 typing, others of your same stacking would not get the same sense of security from a one-on-one relationship that you do, they'd get something else.



> blablabla tl;dr my point is, what is it that SO can survive without that sp,sx can't, and what is it that SO needs that sp,sx manage just fine?


The things I can survive without are things that are shown in my Sp last instinct, they are the things I don't care about, secondary are the Sx needs, I like them, however I am not driven by them. Comparing your Sx 6 needs to me as a So 9 would be groups give me a sense of belonging that I seek _as a 9_.


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## TaylorS (Jan 24, 2010)

spectralsparrow said:


> I think it may have something to do with how much angst one might feel about not being part of an ideal social realm, to some degree.
> 
> I'm so-last and I'm very critical of "the social realm", both of cultural values and of the dynamics of power and hierarchy in general. But, more than just being critical of it, I simply do not feel compelled to participate in it. I'm not drawn to it. I despise feeling aware of my perceived inadequacies, while still being pressured to focus on things I don't think should matter. I'm kind of a lone wolf and I don't feel compelled to change the system from within, or even from the outside (that would be preferable but I don't see how it's possible). I have little regard for authority figures - I don't generally feel the need to rebel, I just want to be left alone. I don't feel like I have much to contribute, and even if I tried, I'd just be feeding a system that bores me. I feel like every social situation involving anyone I'm not super close to is just a big act, amusing and annoying all at once.
> 
> ...


This pretty much confirms that I am an so-dom


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## Pelopra (May 21, 2013)

talking to a friend of mine made me feel my so-lastness...

he went through a pretty harsh trauma and pulled himself and his mental health back together over the years. nonetheless obviously there are still cracks and rough spots. 
anyway, we were talking through some stuff he's been going through lately and:
one-- he was feeling insecure about whether he "deserved" to belong to a certain label/group identity
two-- he also noticed himself withholding good information about himself from friends because he didn't want them to be "jealous" and reject him
three-- he was busily beating himself up about his "lack of social skills" and "inability to maintain a group of friends" and "not being sociable enough"


and it was weird for me, listening to him describe all these things and thinking-- wow, these are not insecurities I can emotionally resonate with right now. i mean, i understood where he was coming from and tried to give support, but at the same time, worrying about whether i deserve to call myself a certain social label? nope, not on my menu. And friends... is like a vague, fuzzy concern, not nearly as sharp and terrifying as the other stuff bothering me lately... 
I mean, I'd justify myself by saying my social situation is doing fine, which is why I'm not stressing about it, but honestly:
1. the same is true of my financial situation and yet that hasn't stopped me from stressing about it.
2. while it's doing fine, it could be doing much better if i was expending some energy on proper upkeep. but I'm not, because my emotional resources are being consumed elsewhere.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Pelopra said:


> one-- he was feeling insecure about whether he "deserved" to belong to a certain label/group identity


Sorry for the necro, but I agree that so is about identifying with group labels/identities.


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