# AM I that insensitive ?



## Jack Rabid (Aug 6, 2009)

OK.. I am going to try to bottom line this..

I have been in a relationship for a year now..
Me and my partner are awesome(Me INTP..Her INFP)..and everything should be great.. But it's not..

When we got together.. I was still married.. although at the beginning of ending things.. I did not have an easy time letting go..
Not the love part .. which was dead, and had been for sometime.. but the duty and commitment . Her boys,, and of course the security..It was almost worse that my new partner challenged me in ways that would further threaten my security because I knew I would have to grow to be with her..and I was comfortable

I guess i should add.. I was in the UK while married.. and returning to Canada was the 1st step in ending my marriage.. But there was still a possibility that my wife and her kids.. would come to Canada... and we would try..

My new partner was aware of this, but despite me telling her that I was positive _that_ wouldn't happen.. My EX Came anyway.. even though I told her I had a New partner.. So I ended it with my new partner.. and for 6 weeks.. I tried to tell my EX to go Home (or stay in Canada) .. while she tried to save our marriage.. It was an extremely emotional time.. 

meanwhile my New partner suffered alone and heartbroken.. My wife left.. me and my new partner started again.. Again I assured her it was over with the ex..

The wife came again (for one week alone without the kids).. unannounced this time.. and once again I asked my new partner to be patient.. while I explained to my EX that is was over.. (in hindsight.. I was far too sensitive and tried to be TOO nice about it) meanwhile My new partner was let down again and heartbroken.. and received much less sensitivity from me.. My ex left

Me and the new partner tried again.. However this time I could see a change.. I could see her not trusting me..and although I could intellectualize it .. It began to cause mistrust in me.. and I began to doubt her and her feelings for me.. So I Broke it off again.. although this time It wasn't so much a flip flop of not being able to what I had to with the ex... 
However it was then that I finally realised how much I really do love My new partner and began to get an idea of what she might be feeling.. and asked her for 1 final try..

She agreed... and we began again.. But with a lot of mistrust and at this point a TON of defensiveness on both sides..

But we believed in our love and tried to work through it.. I did a lot of soul searching and came to ugly truths about myself.. and tried to own what i done to her and our relationship.. I had no IDEA apparently

Despite being there and with her.. I still couldn't quite end my friendship with the ex..(despite knowing it didn't help her move on) and even confided in her things about my present life and relationship..

This really came to a head.. when my new partner said she felt like there was 3rd person in the relationship and always has been..It took some time.. But I again I saw the light .. and cut off all contact with the ex(this is more recently) and have done the best I can to be supportive of my new partner..often failing emotionaly

BUT.. here is the thing

We got a place together.. in late June.. The day we moved in my New partner quit her Job and had no money.. I encouraged her to do so.. I had a little money and a Job..and Had no problem giving her some time to heal and get over things..

Now since then.. she just got more and more depressed.. more and more withdrawn.. and until a few days ago completely unaware of how much of a drain she has been on me financially and how much debt I have gone into.. I stayed off her back as well giving space and time.. In short for the 1st time.. I had her back..I was in her corner.. But her defensive wall are great and she could only still feel the past and not the present.. and I could seemingly do nothing to help her.. except soothe her with touch.. 

My job is also very stressing and I don't really enjoy it.. So every now and then.. I am going to be low and bit weak myself.. last night was one of those nights and I told her so

Last night/this morning she broke.. We were having a talk .. she was trying to tell me all her character flaws.. I was trying to tell her she has none.. just behavior issues which are not flaws. Of course that didn't go well either.. and despite me reassuring her she felt under attack and said I should be aware of how fragile she is.. now being in my weakened emotional state.. I broke a bit too.. which only made it worse.. because I was not being as empathetic towards her as she needs.. and kept saying if she would only give a little to me.. I would have lots for her.. This seemed to destroy her and she left.. and now I am left wondering again.. what I did wrong..

Was I really that insensitive??

I am positive this is the killer.. and that we are done..

I love her.. and wish I could get it right.. but It seems in order to do so.. I can't have any feelings of my own.. 

And there is no way I can ever feel what she felt through all of this.. no matter how much I empathise .. I can't feel all her pain.. Only try to make sure I never cause it again..

I know with her that in the end.. she always seems to be right about this stuff..and that I am an emtional idiot ..

Again have I been that insesnitive??


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## starri (Jan 23, 2009)

My honest opinion is that you are both at flaw. 

She obviously was not "completely" forgiving in the beginning when she said she was and dived in without first attempting to fix her repressed feelings -- which later were exasperated. She kept thinking of how much chances she gave you and forgot to work on herself and the present and got consumed in her inner turmoil and mistrust. You can't really be a good partner when you are feeling sorry for yourself and insecure.

It needed time with each of you alone to self develop before attempting to enter this relationship seriously - imo.

The option i can think of now is time away. If there really is love/chemistry/connection -- in months, years or whatever things tend to fix themselves when you least expect it.

As for INTPs being insensitive. I can't comment on that atm because I would probably be biased.


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## InvisibleJim (Jun 30, 2009)

Ouch. Such flip flopping is really not good for anyone involved.


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## Ungweliante (Feb 26, 2009)

Seriously, there seems to be quite of a rollercoaster-mechanic going on for you. You have left or neglected her two times, always when the ex has come back. This would make anyone insecure. Then on the third time, you have given her time and space...which is probably the exact thing she does NOT need. You have to convince her that you love her, not leave her alone to convince herself of that.

I think the best thing for you now would either be to do ALL that you can to convince her of that, or to be single for a while and find happiness by being yourself, before mixing another person along with that. I believe that the previous relationship wasn't happy, seeing as you separated, but going for a new relationship right away after will usually not work. Sometimes people also escape problems in their current relationship to a new one, which will go equally wrong. However, you yourself know if this was what you did.

I'm sorry if I came out a bit aggressive about this. I have been in a similar situation myself. The wounds have never healed.


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## Ninja (Jun 28, 2009)

Looks to me you have been changing alot for this person and walking on egg shells due to her fragile emotions. I find it interesting that she kept trying with you even though you were married and still dealing partially with your ex after you supposedly broke it off. This furthers my opinion that she's a nutter. She's blaming you for being insensitive and causing her emotional outbreaks, when she doesn't have a job and you're asking her for a bit of support. No, that's manipulative. Also, you state she tells you of her character flaws. This demonstrates a flawed self image. 

I believe this new girl was your path out of your other relationship, she was a convenient replacement so that you wouldn't have to be alone, because you haven't been for a long while and grew use to the comfortability, as you stated yourself. You were even speaking to your ex about issues in the new relationship. Even though she may not be all that compatible with you, you wanted a change which she provided the back up for. 

You are greatly attached to her though, in mind and body, yet perhaps with not all that much reason. 

I'm not attacking you.


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## Jack Rabid (Aug 6, 2009)

Splash Attack! said:


> My honest opinion is that you are both at flaw.
> 
> She obviously was not "completely" forgiving in the beginning when she said she was and dived in without first attempting to fix her repressed feelings -- which later were exasperated. She kept thinking of how much chances she gave you and forgot to work on herself and the present and got consumed in her inner turmoil and mistrust. You can't really be a good partner when you are feeling sorry for yourself and insecure.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you are saying.. she wouldn't at this time.. and that is why we are where we are presently.. and when I suggested the BOLD.. I was told I was giving up..

and maybe I need some that bias..



Ungweliante said:


> Seriously, there seems to be quite of a rollercoaster-mechanic going on for you. You have left or neglected her two times, always when the ex has come back. This would make anyone insecure. Then on the third time, you have given her time and space...which is probably the exact thing she does NOT need. You have to convince her that you love her, not leave her alone to convince herself of that.
> 
> I think the best thing for you now would either be to do ALL that you can to convince her of that, or to be single for a while and find happiness by being yourself, before mixing another person along with that. I believe that the previous relationship wasn't happy, seeing as you separated, but going for a new relationship right away after will usually not work. Sometimes people also escape problems in their current relationship to a new one, which will go equally wrong. However, you yourself know if this was what you did.
> 
> I'm sorry if I came out a bit aggressive about this. I have been in a similar situation myself. The wounds have never healed.


 Yes.. And you are not being aggressive.. and there is really nothing more I can do.. If she feels unloved by me.. then like you said, the wounds never heal.. But did you at least forgive??



Ninja said:


> Looks to me you have been changing alot for this person and walking on egg shells due to her fragile emotions. I find it interesting that she kept trying with you even though you were married and still dealing partially with your ex after you supposedly broke it off. This furthers my opinion that she's a nutter. She's blaming you for being insensitive and causing her emotional outbreaks, when she doesn't have a job and you're asking her for a bit of support. No, that's manipulative. Also, you state she tells you of her character flaws. This demonstrates a flawed self image.
> 
> I believe this new girl was your path out of your other relationship, she was a convenient replacement so that you wouldn't have to be alone, because you haven't been for a long while and grew use to the comfortability, as you stated yourself. You were even speaking to your ex about issues in the new relationship. Even though she may not be all that compatible with you, you wanted a change which she provided the back up for.
> 
> ...


 I do not feel attacked .. And you certainly seem to understand my side of things.. about how I was feeling.. 

I will disagree with the needing someone.. I was quite prepared to go it alone after my marriage ended.. I love her and that is why I got with her and why she keeps trying with me.. nothing more complex than that..

Also this is me talking.. she would present a whole different side to things.. and she would amke valid points as well..


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## Ungweliante (Feb 26, 2009)

Jack Rabid said:


> Yes.. And you are not being aggressive.. and there is really nothing more I can do.. If she feels unloved by me.. then like you said, the wounds never heal.. But did you at least forgive??


At times I forgive, at times I forget. I have hadn't had any contact with him after the final separation, as doing so would be like ripping my heart out and throwing it into a pool of sharks, hoping in vain that it wouldn't get eaten. If you want to hear more of it, I can do it via PM.


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## Jack Rabid (Aug 6, 2009)

Ungweliante said:


> At times I forgive, at times I forget. I have hadn't had any contact with him after the final separation, as doing so would be like ripping my heart out and throwing it into a pool of sharks, hoping in vain that it won't get eaten. If you want to hear more of it, I can do it via PM.


Please tell me more..


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## Ninja (Jun 28, 2009)

You justify disagreements with my words. I believe you can also see how I'm right in that which causes you to "but" with. You fear crossing an emotional thresh hold which places you in a lonely place yearning to go back to her.


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## Jack Rabid (Aug 6, 2009)

Ninja said:


> You justify disagreements with my words. I believe you can also see how I'm right in that which causes you to "but" with. You fear crossing an emotional thresh hold which places you in a lonely place yearning to go back to her.


I am not sure I am reading you correctly..

By my standards.. she is not a nutter.. she is very emotionally intense and I am not equipped to deal with it's intensity 24/7..

But there is nothing you said there that i haven't thought myself.. so maybe you are correct..and I am just justifying things again.. which is how this whole mess got started


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## PeacePassion (Jun 9, 2009)

wow. well, to which part exactly are you referring to when you ask,"was I really being that insensitive?" to the whole thing, i'd say yes. not that it's your fault, not that she didn't make mistakes too, and even so i really think we're all doing the best we can at any given moment, still to answer your question, yes. you were really insensitive. again, doesn't mean you both didn't make mistakes, sounds like you both made a series of mistakes that led up to this point. do you want me to elaborate? i will if you want. i don't want to be so bold as to give you my opinion in detail unless you really want it, i mean, you're going through this right now, i don't want to be insensitive to that. though i do want to say, that line about 



> I love her.. and wish I could get it right.. but It seems in order to do so.. I can't have any feelings of my own..


not true. you just need to be able to respect her feelings even when in conflict with your own. and perhaps discussing her faults when she's breaking down is not great timing. insensitive really.


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## Jack Rabid (Aug 6, 2009)

Peace&Quiet said:


> wow. well, to which part exactly are you referring to when you ask,"was I really being that insensitive?" to the whole thing, i'd say yes. not that it's your fault, not that she didn't make mistakes too, and even so i really think we're all doing the best we can at any given moment, still to answer your question, yes. you were really insensitive. again, doesn't mean you both didn't make mistakes, sounds like you both made a series of mistakes that led up to this point. do you want me to elaborate? i will if you want. i don't want to be so bold as to give you my opinion in detail unless you really want it, i mean, you're going through this right now, i don't want to be insensitive to that. though i do want to say, that line about
> 
> 
> 
> not true. you just need to be able to respect her feelings even when in conflict with your own. and perhaps discussing her faults when she's breaking down is not great timing. insensitive really.


I appreciate your honesty... And I don't mind hearing the truth .. even if it hurts me..

But that is the crux... Sometimes all I need is a 50% compromise .. which means in order for me to respect her feelings I also need her to respect mine.. Why is her breakdown more important than mine?? Why is my sensitivity needed ONLY at a time when I also need some??

otherwise I am fine.. and I stand by her and support her emotionally, physically ,spiritually and at this time financially..

If I can't go to my partner for support even if they also need some from me.. I am going to feel very alienated very quickly.. the 50/50 thing once in awhile can't possibly be _THAT_ insensitive


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## snail (Oct 13, 2008)

Ninja said:


> Looks to me you have been changing alot for this person and walking on egg shells due to her fragile emotions. I find it interesting that she kept trying with you even though you were married and still dealing partially with your ex after you supposedly broke it off. This furthers my opinion that she's a nutter. She's blaming you for being insensitive and causing her emotional outbreaks, when she doesn't have a job and you're asking her for a bit of support. No, that's manipulative. Also, you state she tells you of her character flaws. This demonstrates a flawed self image.
> 
> I believe this new girl was your path out of your other relationship, she was a convenient replacement so that you wouldn't have to be alone, because you haven't been for a long while and grew use to the comfortability, as you stated yourself. You were even speaking to your ex about issues in the new relationship. Even though she may not be all that compatible with you, you wanted a change which she provided the back up for.
> 
> ...


What?!!! You _can't_ be serious! How was she nuts to be hurt by that? I don't think she was nuts at all, just very patient, very wounded, and not getting the emotional security she needed from an unstable relationship. We INFPs are usually humble and open about our flaws, but judge ourselves harshly enough without any additional negativity from external sources, which will inevitably be taken badly. If we weren't willing to discuss our flaws with a partner, we would feel like there was no true intimacy in the relationship, and would also hate ourselves for being too prideful to deal with ourselves honestly. You clearly have no clue. 

On the other hand, I can relate to the other side, how hard it is to get out of one relationship and into another, and I'm sure there was someone I hurt that way, too, with the flip-flopping and eventual rejection. I feel terrible for it. 

To the person involved: I know there isn't anything that can be done about the mistake now, but please, whatever you do, don't blame her, no matter how badly she reacts. You owe her a bit of stability and security for what you have put her through, and it could take years for her to heal. I know it was hard on you, too, and I'm not denying that. It's just that, if someone did that to me, I'm not sure I would ever fully trust him not to abandon me every time the opportunity arose. You might benefit from going to a counselor together to work through this. I would consider it absolutely heartbreaking if it happened to me. Also, one of the worst things someone can do to an INFP is to point out her faults while she is already in emotional pain, because she doesn't have the strength to fend off attacks while she is desperately trying not to unravel. In this case, yes, her feelings should be your priority, even when yours are also hurt. It should, however, be possible to preserve both.


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## Jack Rabid (Aug 6, 2009)

snail said:


> What?!!! You _can't_ be serious! How was she nuts to be hurt by that? I don't think she was nuts at all, just very patient, very wounded, and not getting the emotional security she needed from an unstable relationship. We INFPs are usually humble and open about our flaws, but judge ourselves harshly enough without any additional negativity from external sources, which will inevitably be taken badly. If we weren't willing to discuss our flaws with a partner, we would feel like there was no true intimacy in the relationship, and would also hate ourselves for being too prideful to deal with ourselves honestly. You clearly have no clue.
> 
> On the other hand, I can relate to the other side, how hard it is to get out of one relationship and into another, and I'm sure there was someone I hurt that way, too, with the flip-flopping and eventual rejection. I feel terrible for it.
> 
> To the person involved: I know there isn't anything that can be done about the mistake now, but please, whatever you do, don't blame her, no matter how badly she reacts. You owe her a bit of stability and security for what you have put her through, and it could take years for her to heal. I know it was hard on you, too, and I'm not denying that. It's just that, if someone did that to me, *I'm not sure I would ever fully trust him not to abandon me every time the opportunity arose.* You might benefit from going to a counselor together to work through this. I would consider it absolutely heartbreaking if it happened to me. Also, one of the worst things someone can do to an INFP is to point out her faults while she is already in emotional pain, because she doesn't have the strength to fend off attacks while she is desperately trying not to unravel. In this case, yes, her feelings should be your priority, even when yours are also hurt. It should, however, be possible to preserve both.


 The Bold.. has made me cry.. I want to clarify when you say the every time the "opportunity" arose.. The opportunity for who? or what? Do you mean that every time she is hurt and feels I am being critical.. she thinks I am going to abandon her??


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## PeacePassion (Jun 9, 2009)

Jack Rabid said:


> I appreciate your honesty... And I don't mind hearing the truth .. even if it hurts me..
> 
> But that is the crux... Sometimes all I need is a 50% compromise .. which means in order for me to respect her feelings I also need her to respect mine.. Why is her breakdown more important than mine?? Why is my sensitivity needed ONLY at a time when I also need some??
> 
> ...


the 50/50 part is a dynamic balance no? one that ideally remains at about the 50/50 mark most of the time. what do you mean 50/50 once in a while? sounds like you feel or think you're the one giving way more than your 50 most of the time, and are only asking for 50/50 every once in awhile? do you see how that's really not fair, especially in a time of crisis? i know you're just as much in crisis as she is right now, and correct me if i'm wrong but you're looking to resolve it first mentally perhaps, figuring it out in your mind, your mind is probably racing now? and she's probably off in some sort of existential flood of nuclear emotions... both of you most likely simply need to stop right now. you're not going to figure it out right now, and she's probably drowning in emotion right now, not even really hearing whatever you think you've got figured out. except for maybe the parts about how she's failed as her head bobs up and down in the rushing water. 

and yeah, the financially part probably is a big reason you seem to have some resentment built up, especially if you guys have been struggling. and i'm sure it's really hard for you if you want to be able to support her and are now facing the fact that you simply can't, and it sounds like much financial damage has been done. that's going to have to be worked out, sure, but just back off on that one for the time being ok? that's going to take some time to work through and recover from. and i'm sure she feels really bad about it. you don't have to beat it into her head RIGHT NOW. i'm sure she's painfully aware of it. 

and obviously i'm just guessing, but i'm sure she's aware of your emotions ALL THE TIME. even right now. I'm sure your pain and frustration is pumping through her vains amplified with hers. think about what you're saying here: 



> which means in order for me to respect her feelings I also need her to respect mine.. Why is her breakdown more important than mine?? Why is my sensitivity needed ONLY at a time when I also need some??


that tells me you're really not "getting it" which is part of why when things get to this point, it's best to just stop. yes talk it out with friends, or in this case, here on the forum, but let me tell you how from my perspective you're just not getting it- in order to respect her feelings? what? there's constraints on this? you respect her feelings, IF? wtf is that? think about it for yourself. like i said, i'm sure she's aware and respectful of your feelings all the damn time! even now! that's why now that she's in emotional crisis, it is not the time to ask her to swim to shore despite the raging currents, pull herself out the muck and wash your wounds. she needs you to throw her a life raft. also, your sensitivity is needed all the time. i'm sure, from her perspective, to some extent she compromises you lack of sensitivity in the day to day. she probably knows you well enough to trust the feelings and emotions are there for her, even if you don't show it. she probably is close enough to you that she empathizes those emotions without you needing to show it. 

what do you need from her now? like, what sensitivity are you looking for from her right now? that she doesn't give you all the time, that now that she needs you you're stomping your feet saying you need her and this is her fault blah blah blah? why not man up and throw her a life raft here? in times like this the greatest hope is if you stop thinking about what you need and start thinking about what you can do you know? sort of like that stupid saying about in hell the chinese people sitting at the round table with super long chopsticks can't feed themselves, but in heaven they figure out they simply use their super long chopsticks to feed each other. 

if you guys are going to get through this there's obviously a lot you BOTH need to do and work through and all that, but just try to set your needs aside and see if she doesn't reciprocate. just help each other get through this moment, if you can, and figure the rest out later when she's not drowning and you're not aneurysm-ing. and yeah, if you step and help her through this now, and she doesn't reciprocate or something, that's more for you to consider later. but at least you'll have done what you could, and given it the best chance possible. and yes i'd tell her the same. but i also know from experience that these crisis moments can be emotionally debilitating, not just emotionally, but the emotional overload can be a sort of... i don't even know how to explain it. she's probably paralyzed right now, in an abstract existential way you probably don't understand. 

anyway, obviously i'm going off of not much information and i don't know either of you well at all, and this is 100% my biased opinion, but i'm offering it up for what it's worth. good luck to you both. this sucks. i'm sorry you're going through this right now. 

summary of my advice: for this moment stop focusing on what you need, that's long term stuff, focus on what you can give, what you can do right now. maybe there's nothing you can do and that's your problem, idk. and just imagine, if she does the same, which maybe she can't right now if things have gotten to the point of existential paralysis for her, but i'm sure as she recovers she'll be doing what she can do, if she wants to continue the relationship. if you want to continue the relationship. ok i'm repeating myself sorry. good luck anyway.


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## PeacePassion (Jun 9, 2009)

Jack Rabid said:


> The Bold.. has made me cry.. I want to clarify when you say the every time the "opportunity" arose.. The opportunity for who? or what? Do you mean that every time she is hurt and feels I am being critical.. she thinks I am going to abandon her??


I suspect what she means is that as in a way every time in the past there as been an "opportunity" for you to return to your ex, you did, that's what it would look like from her perspective, even if that's not how it went from your perspective. i would feel the same. and if you've consistently done so in the past (what, 3 times? everytime there was a crossroads?) why would she think you'd ever do differently, until you show her and actually do differently? which, of course, now translates to you leaving her whenever there's any sort of crossroads, even if it's not your ex waiting on the otherside. it seems you have a pattern of leaving her opportunistically, when it would be easier for you to leave than to stay, even when that's not what you actually want.


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## snail (Oct 13, 2008)

Peace&Quiet said:


> I suspect what she means is that as in a way every time in the past there as been an "opportunity" for you to return to your ex, you did, that's what it would look like from her perspective, even if that's not how it went from your perspective. i would feel the same. and if you've consistently done so in the past (what, 3 times? everytime there was a crossroads?) why would she think you'd ever do differently, until you show her and actually do differently? which, of course, now translates to you leaving her whenever there's any sort of crossroads, even if it's not your ex waiting on the otherside. it seems you have a pattern of leaving her opportunistically, when it would be easier for you to leave than to stay, even when that's not what you actually want.


 Yes, that is exactly what I meant, but I've behaved that way before, too, trying to please everyone while actually hurting both, unable to make a clean break. If I had stayed with the one I was planning to be with, the one who helped me get my perspective back when my ex had me isolated and brainwashed, I'm sure I'd be in your position now. I flip-flopped several times. It was the wrong thing to do, and that is why I think the biblical rules about not being able to remarry someone you have already divorced are very important to follow. Once an old relationship is over, it should be over instead of remaining to compete with your new relationship. You know that, though, or if you didn't, you certainly found out the hard way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PeacePassion (Jun 9, 2009)

snail said:


> Yes, that is exactly what I meant, but I've behaved that way before, too, trying to please everyone while actually hurting both, unable to make a clean break. If I had stayed with the one I was planning to be with, the one who helped me get my perspective back when my ex had me isolated and brainwashed, I'm sure I'd be in your position now. I flip-flopped several times. It was the wrong thing to do, and that is why I think the biblical rules about not being able to remarry someone you have already divorced are very important to follow. Once an old relationship is over, it should be over instead of remaining to compete with your new relationship. You know that, though, or if you didn't, you certainly found out the hard way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. I haven't been on that side of things, but I've been on the other side, "her" side, if you will, and that lesson is something along the lines of to let things progress slowly enough that the other person both makes the break they need to make and shows you they want to be with you and takes the necessary steps for that to be true. and to leave and let it go if they don't. either side is really tough though. especially, like in your case, if there's isolation and manipulation and brainwashing going on. that's almost another story though. or at least a whole additional dimension.


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## Jack Rabid (Aug 6, 2009)

snail said:


> Yes, that is exactly what I meant, but I've behaved that way before, too, trying to please everyone while actually hurting both, unable to make a clean break. If I had stayed with the one I was planning to be with, the one who helped me get my perspective back when my ex had me isolated and brainwashed, I'm sure I'd be in your position now. I flip-flopped several times. It was the wrong thing to do, and that is why I think the biblical rules about not being able to remarry someone you have already divorced are very important to follow. Once an old relationship is over, it should be over instead of remaining to compete with your new relationship. You know that, though, or if you didn't, you certainly found out the hard way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


At least you understand there was no malice.. That is cold comfort at this time though..

How did you forgive yourself?? did you lose both??


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## Jack Rabid (Aug 6, 2009)

Peace&Quiet said:


> the 50/50 part is a dynamic balance no? one that ideally remains at about the 50/50 mark most of the time. what do you mean 50/50 once in a while? sounds like you feel or think you're the one giving way more than your 50 most of the time, and are only asking for 50/50 every once in awhile? do you see how that's really not fair, especially in a time of crisis? i know you're just as much in crisis as she is right now, and correct me if i'm wrong but you're looking to resolve it first mentally perhaps, figuring it out in your mind, your mind is probably racing now? and she's probably off in some sort of existential flood of nuclear emotions... both of you most likely simply need to stop right now. you're not going to figure it out right now, and she's probably drowning in emotion right now, not even really hearing whatever you think you've got figured out. except for maybe the parts about how she's failed as her head bobs up and down in the rushing water.
> 
> and yeah, the financially part probably is a big reason you seem to have some resentment built up, especially if you guys have been struggling. and i'm sure it's really hard for you if you want to be able to support her and are now facing the fact that you simply can't, and it sounds like much financial damage has been done. that's going to have to be worked out, sure, but just back off on that one for the time being ok? that's going to take some time to work through and recover from. and i'm sure she feels really bad about it. you don't have to beat it into her head RIGHT NOW. i'm sure she's painfully aware of it.
> 
> ...


This is all very familiar .. you seem to have her feelings like they are your own.. and from a later post you made in this thread, I see some of that is true..

I especially appreciate the time you took to respond in light of that as it might have brought some unpleasant memories back of your own..

The sad thing is.. No matter how much I love her.. I am unable to support her the way she needs right now.. I myself have hit my wall.. I can't balance myself and it just hurts her more..

I have made an request for counseling and should receive my intake call soon.. 
I have never admitted I need help nor sought it before.. But if this isn't the wake up call to do it.. nothing is...


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## PeacePassion (Jun 9, 2009)

Jack Rabid said:


> This is all very familiar .. you seem to have her feelings like they are your own.. and from a later post you made in this thread, I see some of that is true..
> 
> I especially appreciate the time you took to respond in light of that as it might have brought some unpleasant memories back of your own..
> 
> ...


I was going out on a limb and yes, just saying things as I see them, as I imagine it might be, knowing she is INFP and she had PM-ed me yesterday with the implication that she related to my posts, so I just assumed I'd be able to relate to what she might be going through. If it's true and it helps you to see something you didn't see before then I'm glad it helped. And yeah, I mean, I'm drawing on my own experiences, sure, but don't worry, it's not a problem. Nothing recent, I can handle the memories at this point. Thanks for your consideration though. 

And yes, please take good care of yourself. You need to do what you need to do for yourself, and she needs to do the same for herself. Good for you for reaching out for help if you need it, idk, the way I see it we could all use a little all the time, not just in times of crisis. But anyway, help is available and we don't have to go through the harder times alone or without support, so again, good for you for reaching out. 

And best wishes for you both, whatever you both decide to do. :frustrating: sad. I'm sorry again, this sucks. Sucks when you love someone and it just... gets to this point. All hope is not lost though. By taking care of yourself and doing what you need to do, and her doing likewise, it will all work out for the best, however it works out. I really believe that.


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## Jack Rabid (Aug 6, 2009)

Peace&Quiet said:


> I was going out on a limb and yes, just saying things as I see them, as I imagine it might be, knowing she is INFP and she had PM-ed me yesterday with the implication that she related to my posts, so I just assumed I'd be able to relate to what she might be going through. If it's true and it helps you to see something you didn't see before then I'm glad it helped. And yeah, I mean, I'm drawing on my own experiences, sure, but don't worry, it's not a problem. Nothing recent, I can handle the memories at this point. Thanks for your consideration though.
> 
> And yes, please take good care of yourself. You need to do what you need to do for yourself, and she needs to do the same for herself. Good for you for reaching out for help if you need it, idk, the way I see it we could all use a little all the time, not just in times of crisis. But anyway, help is available and we don't have to go through the harder times alone or without support, so again, good for you for reaching out.
> 
> And best wishes for you both, whatever you both decide to do. :frustrating: sad. I'm sorry again, this sucks. Sucks when you love someone and it just... gets to this point. All hope is not lost though. By taking care of yourself and doing what you need to do, and her doing likewise, it will all work out for the best, however it works out. I really believe that.


Well since she is the feeler and I am the thinker.. I Imagine she was looking for some one who might relate to her .. I know she is feeling very alienated..


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## PeacePassion (Jun 9, 2009)

Jack Rabid said:


> Well since she is the feeler and I am the thinker.. I Imagine she was looking for some one who might relate to her .. I know she is feeling very alienated..


She didn't mention anything about anything going on between you guys. I did PM her after this thread though, I offered to be someone she could talk to if she needed someone to talk to. I don't know if she's checking her messages though, I didn't hear anything back from her.


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## Jack Rabid (Aug 6, 2009)

Peace&Quiet said:


> She didn't mention anything about anything going on between you guys. I did PM her after this thread though, I offered to be someone she could talk to if she needed someone to talk to. I don't know if she's checking her messages though, I didn't hear anything back from her.


 I have gone to PM.. as this is getting quite personal

I wasn't suggesting that she said anything about us.. only that she was seeking likewise people and I understand how alientaed she must feel right about now..


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## Deagalman (Jul 3, 2009)

You baffle me because you sound really caring and patient and the very antithesis of insensitive. Take it from an INTP who has been far more insensitive than anything you said you did. I honestly thought you were being used. Anyone who lets you go into debt and sink into all kinds of trouble in a job you don't even like is the insensitive one in my opinion.


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## Deagalman (Jul 3, 2009)

snail said:


> What?!!! You _can't_ be serious! How was she nuts to be hurt by that? I don't think she was nuts at all, just very patient, very wounded, and not getting the emotional security she needed from an unstable relationship. We INFPs are usually humble and open about our flaws, but judge ourselves harshly enough without any additional negativity from external sources, which will inevitably be taken badly. If we weren't willing to discuss our flaws with a partner, we would feel like there was no true intimacy in the relationship, and would also hate ourselves for being too prideful to deal with ourselves honestly. You clearly have no clue.
> 
> On the other hand, I can relate to the other side, how hard it is to get out of one relationship and into another, and I'm sure there was someone I hurt that way, too, with the flip-flopping and eventual rejection. I feel terrible for it.
> 
> To the person involved: I know there isn't anything that can be done about the mistake now, but please, whatever you do, don't blame her, no matter how badly she reacts. You owe her a bit of stability and security for what you have put her through, and it could take years for her to heal. I know it was hard on you, too, and I'm not denying that. It's just that, if someone did that to me, I'm not sure I would ever fully trust him not to abandon me every time the opportunity arose. You might benefit from going to a counselor together to work through this. I would consider it absolutely heartbreaking if it happened to me. Also, one of the worst things someone can do to an INFP is to point out her faults while she is already in emotional pain, because she doesn't have the strength to fend off attacks while she is desperately trying not to unravel. In this case, yes, her feelings should be your priority, even when yours are also hurt. It should, however, be possible to preserve both.


Maybe you have no clue. He works all the time in a job he hates. Meanwhile she stays at home moping around. Even though he racks up enormous amounts of debt, she drains him with an absolute neediness that he can't even begin to cope with after he works all day. I don't think he abandoned her either. He was very clear to her about the situation with the ex.


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## Jack Rabid (Aug 6, 2009)

Deagalman said:


> Maybe you have no clue. He works all the time in a job he hates. Meanwhile she stays at home moping around. Even though he racks up enormous amounts of debt, she drains him with an absolute neediness that he can't even begin to cope with after he works all day. I don't think he abandoned her either. He was very clear to her about the situation with the ex.





Deagalman said:


> You baffle me because you sound really caring and patient and the very antithesis of insensitive. Take it from an INTP who has been far more insensitive than anything you said you did. I honestly thought you were being used. Anyone who lets you go into debt and sink into all kinds of trouble in a job you don't even like is the insensitive one in my opinion.


Unless of course the Bulk of the reason she is feeling down is that she believed in something and it kept crashing down.. Have you ever had your spirit crushed??

Her only mistake was coming back when she shouldn't have.. But she wants to believe and so do I.. 

I think she got so used to seeing me as a threat.. that even when I started to act more like a friend and be there for her.. She wasn't able to trust it.. which frustrated me.. which made her be even more hard on herself..

I appreciate your input.. but I did not make this thread looking for support for myself.. I don't need logic in this case.. I need to feel empathy and love for her.. I need to feel love not fear..

I love my brain.. I love logic.. I love rationalization.. But putting all my trust in it has brought me nothing but misery.. I am trying to learn the value of OTHER PEOPLE'S feelings..and how they are as important as thinking.. I understand my feelings.. but have trouble with others.. and That is how I got here


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## Jack Rabid (Aug 6, 2009)

*@Deagalman

In fact it just hit me..and really I have you to thank.. If these INFP's are mirroring her.. you are mirroring me..

So this is how it goes.. MY TIME IS OVER.. for 11 months she gave me everything while I sorted my shit out.. and rejected her time and again.. and gave lame value to her feelings.. including all the ones that also made me all gooey inside... Now I figure I owe her at least 11 months of keeping my mouth shut and helping her out as much as she helped me out..
and that means putting my stuff aside for her sake.. 

This is what she has been telling me.. and You helped me see that .. 


*


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## Deagalman (Jul 3, 2009)

Jack Rabid said:


> Unless of course the Bulk of the reason she is feeling down is that she believed in something and it kept crashing down.. Have you ever had your spirit crushed??
> 
> Her only mistake was coming back when she shouldn't have.. But she wants to believe and so do I..
> 
> ...


In other words, you are in your 30's. I am in my 20's. :crazy: My thinking will soften in time, maybe.


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## Jack Rabid (Aug 6, 2009)

Deagalman said:


> In other words, you are in your 30's. I am in my 20's. :crazy: My thinking will soften in time, maybe.


 This is true.. and don't fight it when it comes.. life is more complete when you give value to feelings as well.. even if they dont make sense.. sometimes just don't worry if it makes sense.. and go with it..


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## PeacePassion (Jun 9, 2009)

Jack Rabid said:


> This is true.. and don't fight it when it comes.. life is more complete when you give value to feelings as well.. even if they dont make sense.. sometimes just don't worry if it makes sense.. and go with it..


this turned out amazingly beautiful roud: the power of love, eh? 

as a side note, i've come to believe feelings are embedded with information, with knowing... a different sort of sense than you guys are used to perhaps, but maybe that's a motivation for giving them a chance. though there's nothing you can really do but let it happen, just let go and let those feelings flow. yep, just go with it! go with the flow! .. ok, i'll stop. :happy:

EDIT: you guys love logic and rationalization, nevermind, despite the value and information and knowing that IS intrinsic in feeling, in Fi even, there's not a whole lot of "logic" and/or rationalization, not in that Ti sort of way anyway.


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## Ungweliante (Feb 26, 2009)

Jack Rabid said:


> This is true.. and don't fight it when it comes.. life is more complete when you give value to feelings as well.. even if they dont make sense.. sometimes just don't worry if it makes sense.. and go with it..


I applaud your train of thought here.

Feelings are the basis for any kind of happy or satisfying life. Logic and rationalization are tools. Emphasizing logic and devaluing feelings would be like trying to build a house on swampy ground: After a while, it would sink and fall apart.

Nobody can live an entirely unhappy existence. Happiness IS a feeling. Be mindful of how your actions will make yourself and others happy in the future; this is compassion.


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## snail (Oct 13, 2008)

Jack Rabid said:


> At least you understand there was no malice.. That is cold comfort at this time though..
> 
> How did you forgive yourself?? did you lose both??


I left town with the intention of returning someday to continue my relationship with the one who rescued me, after my ex no longer lived there, but my ex didn't move, and I found out that the one I flip-flopped on didn't wait for me. ...so I moved on, and I hope the ones I left behind can forgive me. They knew how hard it would have been for me to stay in a town where I would likely be repeatedly roped back into the destructive relationship until it destroyed me completely. The best thing to do was to create enough physical distance that I no longer felt responsible for the one I was trying to leave, although in your case, having children complicates the issue and makes this solution less feasible for you. I'm such a fuckup.


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## pluto (Jun 2, 2009)

Jack Rabid said:


> ... life is more complete when you give value to feelings as well.. even if they dont make sense.. sometimes just don't worry if it makes sense.. and go with it..


I could not have said it better myself. I usually call myself an INxP, because my T is not that dominate. We cannot be whole people until we are able to use both thinking and feeling functions. At times, I have found that depending more on my thinking function is beneficial and helpful, but it depends on the circumstances, and it is best reserved for very specific situations. Most of the time, I use both together. Other times, the feeling function is more appropriate. I can't imagine being any other way and still being a complete human being.


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## Jack Rabid (Aug 6, 2009)

snail said:


> I'm such a fuckup.


I somehow doubt that...


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## Jack Rabid (Aug 6, 2009)

pluto said:


> I could not have said it better myself. I usually call myself an INxP, because my T is not that dominate. We cannot be whole people until we are able to use both thinking and feeling functions. At times, I have found that depending more on my thinking function is beneficial and helpful, but it depends on the circumstances, and it is best reserved for very specific situations. Most of the time, I use both together. Other times, the feeling function is more appropriate. I can't imagine being any other way and still being a complete human being.


LOL My score is more Like .. Ixxx.. I call myself "The Generalist" I score INTP most often.. but I have also scored INTJ and even ISFJ on a few tests .. I think it has to do with the types of answers they allow

If it's a simple 2 choice answer test.. My scores tend to be out of whack.. If I am giving the option of inbetween or a slight edge in one direction.. That is when I score my INTP... but the NTP part is always around 51%-52%


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## sartreality (Aug 5, 2009)

Jack Rabid said:


> We got a place together.. in late June.. The day we moved in my New partner quit her Job and had no money.. I encouraged her to do so.. I had a little money and a Job..and Had no problem giving her some time to heal and get over things..
> 
> Now since then.. she just got more and more depressed.. more and more withdrawn.. and until a few days ago completely unaware of how much of a drain she has been on me financially and how much debt I have gone into.. I stayed off her back as well giving space and time.. In short for the 1st time.. I had her back..I was in her corner.. But her defensive wall are great and she could only still feel the past and not the present.. and I could seemingly do nothing to help her.. except soothe her with touch..
> 
> ...


You are not an emotional idiot. 

Were you _that_ insensitive? Well, yes but as we've discussed you also have been under incredible emotional stress. None of us are at our best in these circumstances. We've seen each other at our absolute worst, most tormented and despairing. We've torn each other apart over this and now it's time to heal and forgive. 

You _can _have feelings of your own, as you've come to realise. That is one of the things that attracted me to you in the first place -- your openness with me in expressing all of your feelings. Unfortunately that didn't last very long when the shit hit the fan in October and the wall went up.

I have been aware all along what a burden I have been since we moved in together. Excruciatingly aware of it in fact. We've discussed this also and I believe you know this. That fight/breakdown was devastating, so I understand that when you wrote this you felt that I didn't give credence to anything you've done. Nothing could be further from the truth. Because I had nothing left to give emotionally, I could not respond to your repeated plees. 

I've come to an understanding of the dynamic that's at fault when this has happened with us and while the pain of the trust issues and the toxic situation is the primary cause, the resultant fights are due to our personality differences that have more to do with our respective Enneagram types than with our MBTI types. You are a 6w5 and I'm a 5w4. Your reactionary nature needing a response right away to alleviate emotional instability clashes big time with my need for competency. I have to retreat. I simply _can't_ respond at that particular time or I feel invaded and pushed and attacked. 

Then there's the fact that I am clinically depressed and physically and emotionally burnt out after a year of unrelenting stress and crisis after crisis, not only from our relationship situation (my being your only emotional support while you went on time and again trying to work on/end your marriage) but from my job with an abusive boss, long hours with crap pay, financial strain due to constant car problems and my student debt etc., working my ass off while living in a house that my landlord should have had condemned, hate mail.... and that's only the tip of the iceberg. The list goes on and on like a black comedy from Hell. 

I broke. Finally. Most people would have broken and run a lonnnnnnnnng time ago.

If we made it through this year and we're still together and love each other, we can make it through pretty much anything. 

I'm glad I'm getting the help I need to get healthy again. I'm so looking forward to being well again and going to a job I love instead of something I hate. I'm so happy you have a new job yourself. 

I'm also very grateful for the all of the very kind and insightful people that helped you on this forum while I was in the hospital.


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## sartreality (Aug 5, 2009)

alizée said:


> My honest opinion is that you are both at flaw.
> 
> She obviously was not "completely" forgiving in the beginning when she said she was and dived in without first attempting to fix her repressed feelings -- which later were exasperated. She kept thinking of how much chances she gave you and forgot to work on herself and the present and got consumed in her inner turmoil and mistrust. You can't really be a good partner when you are feeling sorry for yourself and insecure.
> 
> ...


Forgiveness is an incredibly valid issue here. We both need to forgive. In my opinion my boyfriend needs to forgive himself for the fact his happiness and moving forward in his life caused other people pain, something he has been tormented over all along. I need to forgive myself for the same thing. As much as I "took the high road" and stepped away giving him time to end the other relationship, every single time the wife came back, I was still tormented and beat myself up mercilessly over it for the past year. 

As for forgiving J, I did that over and over. I have understood, perhaps too much, what he was going through. The issue was/is one of trust and not forgiveness. What happens when you are told repeatedly that someone loves you and wants to spend the rest of thier life with you and then flip flops dropping you for another woman...repeatedly? A wall of defense goes up to protect your heart from completely shattering. It's self preservation. I had had my heart broken one too many times. Once that wall of protection goes up however, it's murder to take it down. But, i will.


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## sartreality (Aug 5, 2009)

InvisibleJim said:


> Ouch. Such flip flopping is really not good for anyone involved.


Nope. It sure isn't.


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## sartreality (Aug 5, 2009)

Ungweliante said:


> *Seriously, there seems to be quite of a rollercoaster-mechanic going on for you. You have left or neglected her two times, always when the ex has come back. This would make anyone insecure. Then on the third time, you have given her time and space...which is probably the exact thing she does NOT need. You have to convince her that you love her, not leave her alone to convince herself of that.*
> 
> I think the best thing for you now would either be to do ALL that you can to convince her of that, or to be single for a while and find happiness by being yourself, before mixing another person along with that. I believe that the previous relationship wasn't happy, seeing as you separated, but going for a new relationship right away after will usually not work. Sometimes people also escape problems in their current relationship to a new one, which will go equally wrong. However, you yourself know if this was what you did.
> 
> I'm sorry if I came out a bit aggressive about this. I have been in a similar situation myself. The wounds have never healed.


Thanks so much for sharing your view. The bolded part is so true.

I'm also so sorry for your pain. The wounds can go very deep, but I do hope they heal some time for you.


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## sartreality (Aug 5, 2009)

Ninja said:


> Looks to me you have been changing alot for this person and walking on egg shells due to her fragile emotions.


Walking on eggshells? That is amusing. J isn't capable of it. He's too forthright. And I'm glad he is.



Ninja said:


> I find it interesting that she kept trying with you even though you were married and still dealing partially with your ex after you supposedly broke it off.


Actually, let's get the facts straight. I broke it off with him as far as an intimate relationship as soon as I found out that the marriage was not completely finished. I wanted nothing to do with a situation like that. That was in October (we met Sept. 1st last year) He repeatedly assured me it WAS over and pursued me._ Not_ the other way around. I believed him because I wanted to. He didn't break it off with me until she flew over in December, against his protestations and telling her he was in love with someone else. 

I *did not keep trying* at this point. All contact was suppose to be cut off, so he could convince his wife who wanted to save the marriage, that it was over. BUT, he still asked for my support as a friend, talking via IM and emails and hidden phone calls. Did I try to _get hiim back_ through all of that? NO. I hated...let me repeat...I freaken hated being in the middle of an ending marriage. I hated it with a white hot passion. I did not want to be with someone unless they were free of all other shit and made that decision without all the guilt. I said repeatedly we need time. But he needed a friend and he had no other support in the city, having just arrived back from England. I love him. So, I was there as a support.




Ninja said:


> This furthers my opinion that she's a nutter.


I have this saying when people fling around baseless opinions and judgements. It goes like this; "Consider the source."




Ninja said:


> She's blaming you for being insensitive and causing her emotional outbreaks, when she doesn't have a job and you're asking her for a bit of support.


Actually, J had the emotional outbreak when I wouldn't respond to his pushing. Then I retaliated when he wouldn't back down. 



Ninja said:


> No, that's manipulative.


Wrong. It's a defensive reactiion by someone who is depressed.



Ninja said:


> Also, you state she tells you of her character flaws. This demonstrates a flawed self image.


The topic of flaws was brought up by J, not myself. My self image, when I'm not depressed is just fine thanks.


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## sartreality (Aug 5, 2009)

Peace&Quiet said:


> you just need to be able to respect her feelings even when in conflict with your own. and perhaps discussing her faults when she's breaking down is not great timing. insensitive really.


:happy:

You've been so much help. Thanks!


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## snail (Oct 13, 2008)

I'm glad you two are still working together to resolve this. Thanks for the clarification and the update.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sartreality (Aug 5, 2009)

snail said:


> What?!!! You _can't_ be serious! How was she nuts to be hurt by that? I don't think she was nuts at all, just very patient, very wounded, and not getting the emotional security she needed from an unstable relationship. We INFPs are usually humble and open about our flaws, but judge ourselves harshly enough without any additional negativity from external sources, which will inevitably be taken badly. If we weren't willing to discuss our flaws with a partner, we would feel like there was no true intimacy in the relationship, and would also hate ourselves for being too prideful to deal with ourselves honestly. You clearly have no clue.


True that.

All of it. Thank you 




snail said:


> To the person involved: I know there isn't anything that can be done about the mistake now, but please, whatever you do, don't blame her, no matter how badly she reacts.
> 
> ....
> 
> Also, *one of the worst things someone can do to an INFP is to point out her faults while she is already in emotional pain,* because she *doesn't have the strength to fend off attacks *while she is *desperately trying not to unravel.* In this case, yes, her feelings should be your priority, even when yours are also hurt. It should, however, be possible to preserve both.


You expressed this so well. Thank you.




snail said:


> You might benefit from going to a counselor together to work through this. I would consider it absolutely heartbreaking if it happened to me.


We are going to counseling. Thanks again :happy:



snail said:


> I'm glad you two are still working together to resolve this. Thanks for the clarification and the update.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Thank you snail :happy:We both believe that we belong together and love each very much, so there is lots of motivation even with everything we've been through. Things have been _much_ better since we've realized we need to bring down our defenses. I describe it as the fog has lifted. 

*Sorry I would have replied earlier to your post, but I just saw my notification now.


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