# Si and autism



## Recon777 (May 24, 2013)

Hey all. Ever since discovering MBTI as a topic of study, I've been aware of the perception of some which suggests that high functioning autistics or Aspergers people behave in similar ways to the INTJ personality. In fact, people have suggested that I had Aspergers as far back as 2006, and I simply assumed it was true, with the exception of a few typical A.S. traits that I never identified with.

However, after discovering that I was simply an INTJ with sensory perception sensitivity, rather than having Aspergers, things made a whole lot more sense and I abandoned the self diagnosis. After realizing that I am in fact, not an Aspie, I have been much more comfortable in social situations - that is to say, I am much more capable of handling them. I should not say comfortable, since INTJs don't really prefer shallow social events either.

After becoming much more comfortable with my identity as an INTJ, and truly identifying with it, I once again revisited the traits of Aspergers Syndrome, and I have to say, there are very few that I can even imagine identifying with. Things like difficulty in forming brand new friendships are going to be common for both groups. However, I have no difficulty with "change" which is one of the key A.S. traits. I also have no trouble whatsoever in reading other people's body language, tone of voice, or other nonverbal emotional cues. I am very sympathetic and compassionate, although empathy (as typical with INTJs) is something I don't do well at all.

So my question here today is about the well known trait of autism in which these people are extraordinarily resistant to life changes. I would compare this to Si (introverted sensing) because Si also is resistant to change and prefers sticking with "tried and true" patterns of living.

Being an INTJ, Si is the function I identify with the least. The so-called "demon function". I had a misunderstanding about what this meant until recently when someone explained to me that our 8th function is often exhibited when we are placed in completely unfamiliar situations. For me, that would be something like learning a brand new system or being in a situation where I am perpetually at odds with someone. When I am learning a new job for example, I will become extremely detail oriented and pedantic in my learning style. I will attempt to learn all of the procedures to the letter first, and then as my familiarity gains traction, I will switch into the (much more effective) NiTe mode which I operate in naturally with subjects I am familiar with. In this mode, I have amazing endurance and it energizes me to form innovative solutions using my natural traits. But before I can get to that point, I seem to be in this very uncomfortable Si mode which drains me severely. I also can get cranky if inconsistencies arise, which seems very ISTJ like. But I hate being in this mode, and need to take frequent breaks when I am forced to learn a new system from the ground up.

So, when I think about people with dominant or auxiliary Si - (the SJs) I think about how resistant to change they naturally are. In considering the autistic person, I can't help but wonder if there is a similar pattern. I've never heard Aspergers people being compared to SJs. Usually they are compared to INxx. So I'm wondering if there is something to this. Do the traits of autism, specifically the resistance to change, have anything in common with introverted sensing other than the obvious "preference inertia"? I know when I used to think I had Aspergers, I was extremely uncomfortable with change. But this was in a season in my life when I was living with a wife who opposed my every move and made my life a living hell. The constant stress caused me to try my best to latch onto anything consistent or reliable. I typically despise tradition and the mundane. Now that my life is quite a bit different, I can't relate to Aspergers as a symptom set at all.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

I've thought about this connection as well. In relation to INFJ. Which have Si in the same place as INTJ. I know it sounds strange but Ni dom to me almost does seem like some kind of autism spectrum thing. There was a thread on this recently in the INFJ forum. About sensory processing disorder. Everyone has their own unique sensory profile, and may be sensitive to different things. A lot of INFJ have sensory processing issues. I am sensitive to sound and touch personally. I have a lower tolerance for it than most people. 

Not liking change does not necessarily mean you are traditional. I don't like change because order and structure are there to guide us. If someone came into my house and rearranged everything, I would have an absolute fit.


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## Recon777 (May 24, 2013)

Yes, I do think that there is a difference between the Autistic "I don't like change!" and the Ni version.

I know for me, I don't like change because I _already know_ the most efficient way of doing something, and I don't want someone coming along and messing with it. Its not at all because I am suddenly "thrown off my groove" which seems to be the autistic's one and only reason for resisting change. Si doms don't like change because they like things to remain how they always have. This feels much more in line with autistic resistance to change than our variety. For Si doms, its a security thing. Security, order, stability, etc. Efficiency be damned. They like their system because that's what they are accustomed to - _not_ because its superior for any reason. INTJs welcome change as long as the new system is superior. I'm always refining and tweaking my life in subtle ways to improve things, and yes if someone carelessly rearranges it, I'll have strong words with them... Then proceed to make it better than it was before they screwed it up. So that's one of the huge differences between Ni resistance to change and Si resistance to change. Its the _why_ of it all.


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## PaladinX (Feb 20, 2013)

I am diagnosed with ASD. I am an agent of change.


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

Recon777 said:


> Si doms don't like change because they like things to remain how they always have. This feels much more in line with autistic resistance to change than our variety. For Si doms, its a security thing. Security, order, stability, etc. Efficiency be damned. They like their system because that's what they are accustomed to - _not_ because its superior for any reason. INTJs welcome change as long as the new system is superior. I'm always refining and tweaking my life in subtle ways to improve things, and yes if someone carelessly rearranges it, I'll have strong words with them... Then proceed to make it better than it was before they screwed it up. So that's one of the huge differences between Ni resistance to change and Si resistance to change. Its the _why_ of it all.



I don't really agree with your description of Si doms and their relationship to change. I'm not familiar with the mental processes of autistic people, so it's difficult for me to make a comparison between autism and any of the functions. But the general impression I have is that there's not really a connection...I think it's a separate matter. I might be able to buy that it's more similar to Si than Ni...but not to an extent that I could see a connection strong enough to associate them in a meaningful way.



I've been involved in some long threads about Ni vs. Si recently, and I can see why to an Ni dom it looks like Si doms don't want to ever change anything based solely on comfort and security.

But this isn't really true. Si doms (and Si aux's) are very open to change under the right conditions for them. This is because Si is based on actual concrete experiences. It is true that the default mode for an Si dom is to keep things the same. This is because they already have that particular sensory experience and they know that it already works...or that it works well enough for them to be happy with it.

However, this is just the default setting. This doesn't mean that Si doms want to keep it the same forever. However, they need to see what they believe to be solid evidence as to why the change will make the current situation better.

This is very different for Ni users because Ni users have the capability of seeing patterns and trusting their instincts that the new way will be better. An Ni user can typically imagine this pretty effectively without it actually taking place.

An Si dom doesn't have this sort of instinct. If they were to simply trust their instincts (most likely their inferior Ne), they would often be wrong. So, this also makes them very skeptical of the instincts of others...they don't see all of those same connections.

I think this is why it appears to Ni doms that Si doms are resistant to new ways of doing things. To an Ni dom, they can immediately see why it's better...it's obvious to them, and they probably think it must be obvious to the Si dom too. So I think an Ni dom would think "They can obviously see why this new way is better. If they have that knowledge, why on earth would they want to keep it the same? The only reason must be that they would rather hold on to their security of it. They must not want to try something new and better just because it's new."


But this isn't true. If it was, an Si dom would never try anything new. Now, I know with some older SJs, they've probably seen so much in their lifetime that they might feel like they've seen all of the new things that they want to try. I think with SJs the older they get the more they feel like they have enough experience to be happy. 


But talking about SJs and Si doms in general....an Si dom is perfectly willing to adopt a new idea if they feel completely confident that it's going to be better than what they're currently doing. However, they can only get this confidence through actual experience, not imagination. They will only trust in the new idea if they can physically see or sense or experience in some way that it is better. Otherwise, their inferior Ne will make them only see the negative possibilities of it.


An Ni dom has no need for this kind of experience so they might view it as something that is unnecessary and a waste of time. 



The other thing is that Si doms take on any new idea very slowly and one step at a time. They have to get all of the details exactly right before they move on to the next piece. An Ni dom jumps right to the end. So the other reason why an Si dom likes the default of keeping something the same is that in order to make a change, they have to completely destroy their previous state/mentality and start from scratch on the new one. This takes much more time and effort than it does for an Ni dom.


So there are some cases when the Si dom believes that the change will only be a minor improvement, and they won't feel like that minor improvement is worth destroying everything that they already have. In that regard, your post is correct....if they weigh and compare the benefit of the change to the effort it takes to make it and find that the benefit is not worth the effort, then they won't make the change. 

This is quite different than an Ni dom who feels like any improvement is worth the effort. Ni doms seek perfection in that regard...they tend to feel like improvement is always the goal.




So I think it's more a matter of relativity than it is a clear cut divide. Si doms are open to change given the right conditions. It's just that those conditions are very different than they are for Ni doms.




Again, I don't really know much about the psychology of autism, so I can't say how much it compares to Si. But there would definitely have to be a lot more to it than just "they don't like change".


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

Every function could be regarded as a reflection of an autistic symptom, if people wanted to put it together in such a fashion, since the symptoms linked to autism are on the same spectrum as all other human mental processes. Sometimes in autism, these processes exist on a more extreme end of the spectrum. This is why autism is called a spectrum disorder.It's very unlikely to be function related. 

There have been quite a few members here with an asd diagnosis and they have been different personality types. Which isn't exactly unexpected if you've met more than one person with autism, because each individual is different and affected in different ways.

True, it's common for asd people to be inflexible and literal, like the Sensor stereotype. But then some struggle to interpret sensory information and become overwhelmed by it. They fill in the blanks via intuition and go with their intuitive perception. Organising the external environment (Te), placing highest importance on their own judgement (Ti/Fi), perceiving internal patterns (Ni), external patterns (Ne). This could go on and on. 

Autism is a separate condition that affects cognition, it's not a result of any particular cognitive function order.


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## Recon777 (May 24, 2013)

teddy564339 said:


> stuff


Wow... That's hands-down _the_ best explanation of Si that I've heard so far. Agreed on all counts. It also makes me much less confused and frustrated about you people. 

And per usual, since I can see that your explanation is superior, I'll assimilate it into my own understanding.

I just have a few points to add.

First, it seems autism is an abnormality in brain function, in the sense that its effects don't obey the standard traits of any cognitive function. That's fine, I can accept that. I think I was trying to explore any possible correlation between the autism spectrum and any standard personality, to see if perhaps one of the normal personality traits is "on the doorstep" of the autism spectrum, even without stepping inside at all. Doesn't seem this is the case. However, I did get this out of your explanation:

Ne - likes change for any reason.
Ni - likes change if gut feeling senses it will be an improvement.
Si - doesn't like change unless it is 100% proven experientially that it will be an improvement.
ASD - typically doesn't like change for any reason. Pretty sure this is because their neural pathways get hardwired to a certain way of living life, and if someone messes with that, it feels extraordinarily uncomfortable for them. Like suddenly being naked in a crowd.


Now, in regards to Si and your explanation... you are saying that Si doms do not like to try new things unless they fully understand all the details ahead of time. This is something INTJs also do. I myself do not like to "just jump in" to anything. If something is totally unfamiliar, I have a huge resistance to diving in, unlike my INTP friend who is all too eager to dive in without an understanding first. To him, diving in is _how_ he develops an understanding, where I'm quite the reverse. So in this sense, it seems both Si and Ni people like to understand something fully before getting involved. Ne (and I'm betting Se) doms are the opposite. MBTI is very symmetrical.

But the difference likely is in what you said about Ni doms being able to use their instinct to make this process go a whole lot faster. I'd like to add that its not merely instinct, but it is rapidly connecting the dots which we already have the clues and pieces of in our minds. If something is 100% unfamiliar, I'd guess Ni doms would behave exactly like Si doms. In fact, as I said in my original post, I often find myself exhibiting Si when I'm in completely uncharted waters. Its very very uncomfortable. But once I get some traction and get familiar with a system's elements, then Ni takes over and I can draw new connections pretty darn quick.

I do have a question for you though. If as you say, an Si dom is very hesitant to adopt a new system until they _actually experience_ that system - isn't this a negative feedback loop? I mean, how can you get experience unless you adopt the change? And you won't adopt the change until you have experience. It seems like a self perpetuating lack of motivation to try new things, simply because you won't try something until _after_ you've tried it...  Is there some sort of "try before you buy" mechanism your brain has, which lets you get around this loop?




Neverontime said:


> True, it's common for asd people to be inflexible and literal, like the Sensor stereotype.


What's really strange is that when I believed I had Aspergers, I was extremely literal, and could not detect sarcasm. In the last year since realizing that I don't have Aspergers but am an INTJ, I am quite good at detecting sarcasm and I don't take everything so literally (unless its meant to be taken literally). Its a very very odd thing to rapidly change from quite Aspergers-like, to quite neurotypical. My confidence has been extremely boosted last year as well, as I discovered this. I do not understand how I could have so many A.S. symptoms for so long, and then it just goes away from a realization. True A.S. doesn't just go away. It must have been caused by something else.

Incidentally, I will be having a psychiatric evaluation done soon specifically to determine whether I have Aspergers or not - this is for court, because my ex is the one who has claimed I have AS, and so we're both having psychiatric evaluations done to make sure the court knows everybody's mental health situation. Its retarded I know, because even if I had AS, it doesn't make someone a bad parent. Fact is though, I don't have it, so I'm not sure why I should have to spend thousands on a report. But that's court for you. I'm pretty nervous about seeing a psychiatrist. I heard that they're just as crazy as their patients, and secretly believe that _everyone_ should be on meds. I have no idea what to expect.


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

Recon777 said:


> Wow... That's hands-down _the_ best explanation of Si that I've heard so far. Agreed on all counts. It also makes me much less confused and frustrated about you people.
> 
> And per usual, since I can see that your explanation is superior, I'll assimilate it into my own understanding.


Actually, after going back and reading the two posts, I may have made some assumptions that you didn't intend and I may have responded too quickly without thinking. I still agree with what I posted, but I think it may be more in-line with what you posted than I had originally thought. That's a live action example of Si vs. Ni...I feel the need to clarify details that you may or may not need. But I'll still respond to your points below to give you my personal insight.




Recon777 said:


> First, it seems autism is an abnormality in brain function, in the sense that its effects don't obey the standard traits of any cognitive function. That's fine, I can accept that. I think I was trying to explore any possible correlation between the autism spectrum and any standard personality, to see if perhaps one of the normal personality traits is "on the doorstep" of the autism spectrum, even without stepping inside at all. Doesn't seem this is the case. However, I did get this out of your explanation:
> 
> Ne - likes change for any reason.
> Ni - likes change if gut feeling senses it will be an improvement.
> ...


It's possible that this is fitting. Again, not being familiar with autism myself, I'll let @Neverontime and others more well versed in it address that particular point.



Recon777 said:


> Now, in regards to Si and your explanation... you are saying that Si doms do not like to try new things unless they fully understand all the details ahead of time. This is something INTJs also do. I myself do not like to "just jump in" to anything. If something is totally unfamiliar, I have a huge resistance to diving in, unlike my INTP friend who is all too eager to dive in without an understanding first. To him, diving in is _how_ he develops an understanding, where I'm quite the reverse. So in this sense, it seems both Si and Ni people like to understand something fully before getting involved. Ne (and I'm betting Se) doms are the opposite. MBTI is very symmetrical.


Ha ha...yeah, I think I used faulty language there when saying "jump in". I laugh because I actually did that before in my lengthy conversations in a few threads about Ni and Si. The other Ni doms also corrected me on describing it like that.

That's why these functions are very difficult to compare and understand. When I try to understand Ni, I probably tend to view it more as Ne because that's what I use. Of course, it doesn't help that Ni is my 8th function. So I'm not sure exactly how clearly we can even understand those functions completely foreign to us.

But..I think your description of Ne and Ni sounds pretty accurate...it at least lines up with what I've heard from other Ni doms. 



Recon777 said:


> But the difference likely is in what you said about Ni doms being able to use their instinct to make this process go a whole lot faster. I'd like to add that its not merely instinct, but it is rapidly connecting the dots which we already have the clues and pieces of in our minds. If something is 100% unfamiliar, I'd guess Ni doms would behave exactly like Si doms. In fact, as I said in my original post, I often find myself exhibiting Si when I'm in completely uncharted waters. Its very very uncomfortable. But once I get some traction and get familiar with a system's elements, then Ni takes over and I can draw new connections pretty darn quick.


I agree with all of that. It lines up with everything I've heard from other Ni doms, at least. I probably didn't think distinguish between instinct and connecting the dots because for me that's what I kind of tend to think of when I think of instinct. But again, I'm willing to be that it's different for my Ne and Ni. But either way, yep, that sounds right.


I do have a question for you though. If as you say, an Si dom is very hesitant to adopt a new system until they _actually experience_ that system - isn't this a negative feedback loop? I mean, how can you get experience unless you adopt the change? And you won't adopt the change until you have experience. It seems like a self perpetuating lack of motivation to try new things, simply because you won't try something until _after_ you've tried it...  Is there some sort of "try before you buy" mechanism your brain has, which lets you get around this loop?[/QUOTE]


Well, the thing is that there are so many details of the situation to take into account that it's going to be different for every situation, and different for every Si user. I mean, the overall idea is the same for them, but every little step of the way is different.


First off, I think it's more of a scale than it is a definite distinction. I think I misspoke before if I said "100%" or "completely" convinced. I don't know if it's even possible to be 100% convinced about the future. When I drive when I see a green light, I can't completely 100% know a drunk driver won't be rushing through the red light to hit me, and I'm not going to check for that every time I rush through a green light. 


But I think when this is compared to an Ni user, it takes a whole lot more sensory experience to convince me. How much exactly, though, is probably dependent upon the Si user, the exact situation, and what types of similar situations they've been exposed to in the past.


Now, part of this is probably related to the kinds of experiences that are pushed on us or forced on us, especially as children. For example...when I was a kid, my parents had me fly out to see my grandparents every summer. I had no problem with this...I trusted my parents and I felt that it would be safe because they told me it was safe. Nonetheless, it was kind of pushed on me...they made the decision and I went with it because I trusted their judgment.


So now, as an adult, I have that experience of flying and I'm fine with it.


However, an Si dom who had never flown before might be a lot more afraid of doing it or might choose not to fly because they don't have that experience. There would have to be some benefit that they see to it that would outweigh their desire not to fly. But that benefit and how much it means to them would be different for every Si user.



So you can see how complex this can become. Each person has an immensely detailed and complex set of past experiences, not all of which were completely their own choice. And they all affect one another and future choices of an Si dom.



I think this is why SJs are much more likely to be shaped by their past experiences than the other temperaments. For example, if a set of healthy, loving parents are conservative politically....an SJ child is very likely to grow up being conservative. I would be willing to be an NP child would be much more likely to explore other options. But the same thing is true for a liberal set of parents.

The same can be true for negative experiences...if an SJ has conservative parents who mistreat them, an SJ might be more likely to adopt liberal beliefs.


But this is really complicated because Si dom decisions are based solely on past experiences either....it's always a comparison. It's always a comparison of the benefits you can see of a choice vs. the potential risk. 



And that's where the other functions come into play as well. I think an Si dom who is completely resistant to change is probably one who is letting their Si completely dominate their other functions. In a vacuum, Si might be resistant to all changes. But, for an ISFJ, Fe (and to a lesser degree, Ti) also come into play (and Te and Fi do the same for ISTJs). 




There's also definite truth to the "try before you buy" idea that you mentioned. Even if a new experience isn't pushed on us, if we see something similar, it can be enough to give us enough motivation to commit to something new. I think it's the idea of committing that makes it tougher for us.


For example, if I'm debating about buying a new computer....as long as mine is working just fine, I probably won't buy one. If someone tells me about all of the new great things theirs can do, I probably won't be convinced. 


But...if I'm over at their place, and they show me something really really cool about it...and I can actually see it, I might be more convinced. Or...even better....if I were to borrow theirs and play around with it myself, I might start thinking "hey, maybe I should get one".

The key thing is...borrowing it is non-committal. I'm not risking anything. If I don't like it, I can just return it and I won't have wasted any money. So the trying itself doesn't cost me anything (other than time).


So that goes back to what I said before about weighing pros and cons. If an Si dom gets the opportunity to try something with no risk, it's more likely that they'll be willing to at least try it. But, if they have to commit to something, and risk losing something they already have....then it's going to be iffier. They'll have to be convinced that the risk is worth it....that it's worth losing what they already have because the new thing will be better.



It's even like that with things like political beliefs. I've changed my beliefs over time, but every time I made the change, there had to be something that truly convinced me that the new way is better.


In fact, in my case, I've touched into my Fe and Ti so much that I end up bouncing back and forth between beliefs a lot of times, similar to an INTP or ENTP. My Ti makes me want to investigate something further and further, and it seems like I always find new information that makes me think another side is actually better.



So as I mentioned, part of it is also a matter of growing the other CFs.




So yeah...there's not really a simple answer to your question. There are all kinds of details and factors that play into it.


On that note, just a reminder...I might be speaking too generally about Si doms here. Sometimes I mix in my own personal feelings and apply it to all ISJs, which isn't always accurate. However, I have found that most of what I feel personally lines up with what I've read about Si and Si doms in MBTI books, so it seems to fit.


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

Oh, and @Recon777 , I just remembered....if you're curious about the threads I was talking about, here they are. The first one goes off on a lot of tangents about Ni and Ne, and the second one is more personal between an INFJ user and me....but there's still some good stuff in there about how Ni compares to Si. I could dig up some quotations by me and others if you're really curious about it. But for now, here are the two threads:

http://personalitycafe.com/cognitiv...doms-users-value-use-details-differently.html

http://personalitycafe.com/isfj-forum-nurturers/172313-infj-isfj-dynamic.html


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## Recon777 (May 24, 2013)

Thanks for that. As you said, its difficult to truly understand and compare the two functions since those of us who lead with one, have nearly no concept of the other.

One rather notable point from your comments about SJ children is the trust they place in their parents to get them past that initial "experience requirement". This caused me to think that perhaps the best parent for an Si dominant child would be an Se dom. These types of parents are going to be exposing their kids to as many sensory experiences as possible, because that's what Se people naturally do. This exposure would solidify the "past experience" for the Si dom child and green-light a huge amount of possibilities that would benefit them later in life because they would not have to suffer through the inertia of introduction to a new and unknown experience. Its almost like a sort of vaccination. Yes, analogies are an Ni favorite; I can't help myself.


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## 18skeltor (Oct 6, 2013)

Recon777 said:


> I am very sympathetic and compassionate, although empathy (as typical with INTJs) is something I don't do well at all.


Dat lack of Fe


Anyways, dude, I have an INTJ friend exactly like this. But he's not really my friend anymore. Whenever we would hang out with my good ENTJ friend, my INTJ friend began to focus on anything that I said and slipped up on, and would laugh at me like an asshole. I've thought as it as him trying to look better to my other friend, because ENTJ make themselves seem high and mighty a lot, but I also thought it was very immature of this INTJ to do so. 
Actually, that's completely off-topic. I think I just need to get that out. Anyways, he's always diagnosing himself with stupid shit he really isn't. Aspergers and Autism were some of them. I'm not exactly sure how this relates to INTJs functions, however. My other (good) INTJ friend is pretty social and cool in social circumstances.

All I have to offer is that I guess you aren't alone in thinking that in the INTJ community.


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

Recon777 said:


> Thanks for that. As you said, its difficult to truly understand and compare the two functions since those of us who lead with one, have nearly no concept of the other.
> 
> One rather notable point from your comments about SJ children is the trust they place in their parents to get them past that initial "experience requirement". This caused me to think that perhaps the best parent for an Si dominant child would be an Se dom. These types of parents are going to be exposing their kids to as many sensory experiences as possible, because that's what Se people naturally do. This exposure would solidify the "past experience" for the Si dom child and green-light a huge amount of possibilities that would benefit them later in life because they would not have to suffer through the inertia of introduction to a new and unknown experience. Its almost like a sort of vaccination. Yes, analogies are an Ni favorite; I can't help myself.



Well, I did a really good type interaction video with an ESFP (and another one with an ISTP), and I think we agreed that ultimately, SJs and SPs really do need each other. Even though their natural tendencies go against one another, this is ultimately a good thing because it forces them to push their boundaries.

The analogy that the ESFP came up with was that SJs build walls and SPs knock them down. This might sound like they're always fighting each other, but really, it's kind of like a symbiotic relationship....if there's no SJ to build a wall, then the SP has nothing to knock down...so the SP kind of needs the SJ. Likewise, if the SJ could only put up walls with no SP, it would get super crowded and constricted.


In more normal terms....SPs can teach SJs not to be so uptight and restricted about everything, and SJs can teach SPs to learn control and not give in too much to their whims. 


So I think it's helpful for any parent child combination as long as the parent understand what the child's needs are but also still pushes them enough out of their comfort zones to help them see the importance of other lifestyles.


So I do think an SP parent would be good for an SJ child in the way you're describing because the SJ would be exposed to other things. Of course, this could happen with an N parent or even an SJ parent if the parent did it right...it's just that it's probably less likely to happen (since the N might have trouble communicating with the SJ and the SJ parent might not show the SJ child enough diversity). At the same time, though...the SP would have to make sure they also provided enough structure for the SJ child to be comfortable and to fulfill the needs of the child.


A lot of the same things could be said for SP children with SJ parents. As the ESFP I talked to mentioned (since he was the parent of an SP child himself), SPs might resent controls of parents, but they also do need them too, as long as they're given enough freedom as well.


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## StunnedFox (Dec 20, 2013)

teddy564339 said:


> On that note, just a reminder...I might be speaking too generally about Si doms here. Sometimes I mix in my own personal feelings and apply it to all ISJs, which isn't always accurate. However, I have found that most of what I feel personally lines up with what I've read about Si and Si doms in MBTI books, so it seems to fit.


I can't speak for all ISTJs (obviously), but your posts in this thread are some of the most accurate summations that I've come across in regards to my own "internal processes" when it comes to a decision regarding a possible change - especially the difference between situations involving commitment to the new state of affairs and situations with less risk involved. So I'd say your posts are on the right track.


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## Recon777 (May 24, 2013)

teddy564339 said:


> The analogy that the ESFP came up with was that SJs build walls and SPs knock them down. This might sound like they're always fighting each other, but really, it's kind of like a symbiotic relationship....if there's no SJ to build a wall, then the SP has nothing to knock down...so the SP kind of needs the SJ. Likewise, if the SJ could only put up walls with no SP, it would get super crowded and constricted.
> 
> 
> In more normal terms....SPs can teach SJs not to be so uptight and restricted about everything, and SJs can teach SPs to learn control and not give in too much to their whims.


Wow this is very interesting because Ne doms and Ni doms have the exact same relationship. NPs and NJs synergize very well together as long as neither one expect the other to think just like themselves. This is representative between me and my INTP friend who thinks entirely different than I do, but if we are working toward the same goal we are very productive. This idea is also manifest in the classic INTJ/ENFP relationship, which is one that I hope to be able to have at some point. These two types sync very well together despite some pretty extreme differences. Ne is the spamming of ideas and Ni is the narrowing down and focus of one idea. This sounds very similar to the Se/Si dynamic you speak of. I think Ne and Ni people really need each other in the same way.

What's really interesting is that there seems to be a greater divide between S and N than any other group. One could split the whole of the population down between those with S in the first two functions and those with N, and show a sharper contrast than any other division.

I have a theory that the cognitive functions follow Mendelian Genetics to a degree. N type families don't often seem to produce S type children, and vice versa. Unless you have N and S types marry each other and produce children together, and then all bets are off, although I tend to think S genes override generally speaking, similar to how dark skin generally overrides lighter skin when there are parents of each type. My INTP friend has an ISFJ wife, and I swear all five of their kids are strong S types. My friend is the only intuitive in the house. My daughter is likely an INTJ like me, and her mother is an INFJ, so we are both Ni doms and it would make sense our child would also be. If the theory holds true, that is.


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## ENTPreneur (Dec 13, 2009)

teddy564339 said:


> I don't really agree with your description of Si doms and their relationship to change. I'm not familiar with the mental processes of autistic people, so it's difficult for me to make a comparison between autism and any of the functions. But the general impression I have is that there's not really a connection...I think it's a separate matter. I might be able to buy that it's more similar to Si than Ni...but not to an extent that I could see a connection strong enough to associate them in a meaningful way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I salute you to yet another insightful post, and because you shame those who hold prejudice about the (lesser) intelligence of SJs....

OK, you are hardly the norm, nor a "typical" Sj but anyway. You prove that insight is not a domain purely for Ns.... And who can shed light on the S side of things other than someone who are an S (pun intended) and who have self-reflected and is be hefted with great wisdom. At least you seem that way through the lens of the web.


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

Recon777 said:


> Wow this is very interesting because Ne doms and Ni doms have the exact same relationship. NPs and NJs synergize very well together as long as neither one expect the other to think just like themselves. This is representative between me and my INTP friend who thinks entirely different than I do, but if we are working toward the same goal we are very productive. This idea is also manifest in the classic INTJ/ENFP relationship, which is one that I hope to be able to have at some point. These two types sync very well together despite some pretty extreme differences. Ne is the spamming of ideas and Ni is the narrowing down and focus of one idea. This sounds very similar to the Se/Si dynamic you speak of. I think Ne and Ni people really need each other in the same way.


Sounds right to me.



Recon777 said:


> What's really interesting is that there seems to be a greater divide between S and N than any other group. One could split the whole of the population down between those with S in the first two functions and those with N, and show a sharper contrast than any other division.


Hmm...this one's kind of complex. I think from most Ns' perspectives, at least the ones I've seen on PerC, this is true. However, it's possible that it's just more noticeable to them because of the disparity of Ss and Ns. I know type statistics are kind of iffy, but supposedly E/I are fairly balanced, F/T are balanced overall (though not in males and females), and J/P are balanced as well. However, most estimates I've seen say that there are many more Ss than there are Ns in the world. If so, then I think Ns would be much more aware of that difference. Likewise, Ss (especially SJs) would view S-type behavior as the norm and develop a sense that Ns are just "weird". That just makes the difference even stronger and puts up more of a barrier.


I also think it makes a difference which types we're looking at in particular. For N doms and S doms I think this would probably make sense. But it might be possible that an INFP relates more to an ISFP than any other type because they're both Fi doms. I know for me, I relate more to ISTJs than I do ESFJs. Even though we're both SJs with only one preference being different, I really see a strong connection since we're both Si doms. So it's possible that an INFP would feel more of a connection to an ISFP than they would an ENFP.

I suppose it depends on how you decide which types are Ss and which types are Ns. Some people would say that there are 4 N types (INJs and ENPs), 4 S types (ISJs and ESPs), 4 F types (IFPs and EFJs) and 4 T types (ITPs and ETJs). 




Recon777 said:


> I have a theory that the cognitive functions follow Mendelian Genetics to a degree. N type families don't often seem to produce S type children, and vice versa. Unless you have N and S types marry each other and produce children together, and then all bets are off, although I tend to think S genes override generally speaking, similar to how dark skin generally overrides lighter skin when there are parents of each type. My INTP friend has an ISFJ wife, and I swear all five of their kids are strong S types. My friend is the only intuitive in the house. My daughter is likely an INTJ like me, and her mother is an INFJ, so we are both Ni doms and it would make sense our child would also be. If the theory holds true, that is.


It is an interesting thought. I don't recall seeing an S type post about having two N parents before...but this may just be due to population biases. There aren't as many Ss posting on PerC, and if Ns really are a smaller part of the population, the chance of any person having two N parents is smaller. 

I have seen a number of Ns post saying they have two S parents, though. 

Of course, people mistype others all of the time. While I do believe that SJ parents are probably the most common, I also think a lot of people say their parents are SJs just because their parents are exhibiting typical parental behaviors.






ENTPreneur said:


> I salute you to yet another insightful post, and because you shame those who hold prejudice about the (lesser) intelligence of SJs....
> 
> OK, you are hardly the norm, nor a "typical" Sj but anyway. You prove that insight is not a domain purely for Ns.... And who can shed light on the S side of things other than someone who are an S (pun intended) and who have self-reflected and is be hefted with great wisdom. At least you seem that way through the lens of the web.



Well, I believe any person of any type is capable of personal insights. The video chats that pneumoceptor used to do really showed this...she had detailed and awesome discussions with people of all 16 types. 


I do understand why so many Ns on PerC have problems with SJs IRL and I know that most of them are usually just venting on PerC because they can't IRL. 

Also, I think SJs are probably less likely to get into the MBTI because they probably don't feel as much of a need to. Since they are often in control and since they are in the majority, they probably feel more comfortable with themselves and probably don't feel as much of a need to investigate something like the MBTI. Even when they do find people to be different, they probably just view those people as strange or they might chalk it up to how people were raised or what their experiences were. I know I did this before I got into the MBTI.


My reasons for getting into the MBTI are very different than all of the things I've since learned. I had no idea I would find out all of this information about people (or myself, for that matter). 



So I can understand why so many Ns would feel that way about SJs....they probably see the same thing again and again in their lives and they feel very frustrated by it. I always hope that they don't use the MBTI as an over simplification, though. When they start saying "Oh, now I get why people are so unreasonable, they're SJs"...then they're pretty much missing what I believe to be the point of the MBTI. So I always enjoy showing people that type doesn't have to be so limited.


And a lot of it is just being willing to grow and improve. I've made my fair share of stupid comments on PerC and so much of it was because there was just so much that I didn't understand. But I've done my best to try to learn from my mistakes and try to remember these things when I offer my input into a topic. I also have worked hard to try to keep an open mind and listen to others' thoughts while weighing it against what I feel like I already believe.


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## Recon777 (May 24, 2013)

You're right about people likely assuming their parents are SJs due to "parental behavior" - after all, even an N dominant parent really needs to bring structure, order and even a bit of tradition into the lives of their children. I can see how people might easily mistype their parents.

When I think of the genetics of the functions I kind of view each cognitive function as a "gene" in itself, and imagine how they would likely influence the functions of the offspring. For example, if you have an INTJ and INFJ parents, you have Ni dominance in both parents and I would think that this would massively increase the odds that a child would have Ni at the very least, and Ni-dominant as a likelihood. I would not expect an Si dominant child ever to come from INTJ and INFJ parents. In theory it would be possible but perhaps due to Si farther up in the ancestry. Again, this is 100% theory, I have no evidence for any of it other than my own observations, about how families tend to have children who are fairly relatable in personality to their parents. There are always exceptions of course, which show up more in families with lots of kids. But I don't really think I've ever seen an example of a large family who's children exhibit a wide variety of very different personality traits. Usually most of them fall in line with the parents to a degree. Many people would say that this is nurture, rather than nature, and that kids conform to the lifestyles of their parents. This may be true, but I think it would look different than I've observed if that were the case.

Teddy I have to ask, your insight into these things and the way you speak about it is very NT like. As an SF, do you find that discussions about type theory (or any theory for that matter) are *draining* to you? Most SJs I've ever met get seriously drained at conceptual discussions, and they just can't wait to get back to their practical topics. Its quite refreshing to see someone represent the SJ temperament in such a relatable way. Especially for an SFJ, who usually wants nothing to do with this type of cerebral exercise.


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

Recon777 said:


> You're right about people likely assuming their parents are SJs due to "parental behavior" - after all, even an N dominant parent really needs to bring structure, order and even a bit of tradition into the lives of their children. I can see how people might easily mistype their parents.
> 
> When I think of the genetics of the functions I kind of view each cognitive function as a "gene" in itself, and imagine how they would likely influence the functions of the offspring. For example, if you have an INTJ and INFJ parents, you have Ni dominance in both parents and I would think that this would massively increase the odds that a child would have Ni at the very least, and Ni-dominant as a likelihood. I would not expect an Si dominant child ever to come from INTJ and INFJ parents. In theory it would be possible but perhaps due to Si farther up in the ancestry. Again, this is 100% theory, I have no evidence for any of it other than my own observations, about how families tend to have children who are fairly relatable in personality to their parents. There are always exceptions of course, which show up more in families with lots of kids. But I don't really think I've ever seen an example of a large family who's children exhibit a wide variety of very different personality traits. Usually most of them fall in line with the parents to a degree. Many people would say that this is nurture, rather than nature, and that kids conform to the lifestyles of their parents. This may be true, but I think it would look different than I've observed if that were the case.


Yeah, it's hard to say. I have seen a number of different combinations on PerC, but again, you never know how accurate people's typing skills are.

For me, my dad is ENTJ, my mom is ISTJ, my oldest brother is ENTJ, and my older brother is ENFP. So we have a good bit of a mix, but my older brother has always felt out of place as a P type. But it's interesting too how even people of the same type or similar types can have conflicts. My ENTJ brother doesn't get along with my ENTJ dad very well. My mom and dad got divorced and are very rocky now despite both being Te users. I'm extremely close with my mom even though she uses Te and I use Fe. So family relationships can be pretty interesting.




Recon777 said:


> Teddy I have to ask, your insight into these things and the way you speak about it is very NT like.


I've heard a number of people tell me this. I honestly think it's down to spending years and years and years on various online forums. I'm 30 years old now, but I've been talking to people on online forums ever since I was about 14. So I think I got exposed to a lot of N types from that point and it gave me a lot of experience hearing a variety of viewpoints. 

I've definitely changed and grown a lot over the years, though. Even looking back on some of my old PerC posts it's interesting seeing how much I've grown. 




Recon777 said:


> As an SF, do you find that discussions about type theory (or any theory for that matter) are *draining* to you? Most SJs I've ever met get seriously drained at conceptual discussions, and they just can't wait to get back to their practical topics. Its quite refreshing to see someone represent the SJ temperament in such a relatable way. Especially for an SFJ, who usually wants nothing to do with this type of cerebral exercise.



Someone asked me about this in one of my videochats...it was either pneumoceptor (INFJ) or jendragon (ENTP). I told them that it's not nearly as bad on an internet forum because I can choose when and how much I discuss it. IRL I don't think I would be able to keep up with these kinds of conversations for very long...I would rather talk about "simpler" things with people. But on the forums I can do it when I feel like it, and I can mix in IM conversations in between to balance things out.


But part of it too has to deal with background. Not that school credentials mean anything in themselves, but I was valedictorian of my high school and I graduated from one of the top ten universities in the US (Duke). So that's another part that plays into this.

I still think my Fe is ultimately what's driven me the most with type. It feels good for me to understand others and to have them understand me. As pneumoceptor told me, Fe can be a really powerful tool if used right but can be a huge hindrance and danger if used poorly. I suppose that's true for all functions, but it's one I can relate to a lot.


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## Recon777 (May 24, 2013)

I'd agree that Fe is potentially dangerous if misused. Especially Fe doms. Double especially ESFJs because they don't have the intuition to know how to work on other people's emotions properly. 

In particular Fe is more dangerous than Te because Te is more out in the open and while it can feel very overbearing at times, I think Fe is more overbearing because it is harder to read its intentions, being that its all about changing the internal person of someone else, rather than the external goals and products. In my dealings with ENTJs I find them very abrasive and driven, but at least what you see is what you get. I also understand why two ENTJs may not get along (as you mentioned), and I think it has something to do with ENTJs being all about what they personally value. If two ENTJs value different things, then they are going to clash big time, because of all the types, the ENTJs are probably the most convinced that _they_ are right.

Your description of your family kind of blows out the genetics theory, unless its only a mild influence. I mean, how does an ENTJ and ISTJ produce an ENFP? It doesn't seem possible if the functions are inherited. Where did the massive Ne come from? Yes ISTJs have Ne but not much. Also where did your Fe come from, given neither of your parents have that at all. I was hoping that there would be some sort of substance to the inherited function theory, because I like the idea of kids sharing similar function traits as their parents, as it makes sense that parents would be more effective at raising up kids who are not totally unrelatable to them.


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## dulcinea (Aug 22, 2011)

My spin on this topic is that people with ASD or AS will often exhibit their symptoms in a different way depending on their personality. From what I've seen, so far is that an "aspie's" resistance to change is kinda on a sliding scale. Some people with Autism or Asperger's are very resistant, and some are more flexible. I am self-diagnosed as having Asperger's btw, and I joined a couple of fb groups involving AS, so I've heard different experiences, and basically, each one shows different nuances. It's called the "spectrum" for that very reason, some are veeerrry autistic, some can pass for neurotypicals on a daily basis. 

I think where I fit is, it took me a lot longer than most to learn social skills, but being and INFJ, as well, I think what it really took for me was to have an ENFJ mentor in my life to help me model a little after them so that I could learn to express myself in a more socially appropriate manner, but being being an FJ, I'm sure I do have more of a concern for social propriety than an aspie of a different type, so when I read about the way the autistic mind works, and all the symptoms of Asperger's and how they manifest themselves in females as well as males, I didn't rule it out simply because I was capable of learning how to socialize in such a way that adapts to neurotypical expectations. I figured that was an aspect of my personality that helped me adapt more.


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## azdahak (Mar 2, 2013)

Recon777 said:


> Again, this is 100% theory, I have no evidence for any of it other than my own observations, about how families tend to have children who are fairly relatable in personality to their parents. There are always exceptions of course, which show up more in families with lots of kids. But I don't really think I've ever seen an example of a large family who's children exhibit a wide variety of very different personality traits. Usually most of them fall in line with the parents to a degree. Many people would say that this is nurture, rather than nature, and that kids conform to the lifestyles of their parents. This may be true, but I think it would look different than I've observed if that were the case.



There have been studies. Personality is fairly inheritable -- identical twins reared apart tend to have remarkably similar personalities. But it doesn't come down to something as simple as Punnet Square recessive/dominate traits. It's more akin to something like eye color or intelligence-- perhaps hundreds of genes which go into shaping a base personality. 

My parents ESTJ/ESFP had 4 boys INTJ/ESTP/ENTP/ISFJ. 




> Teddy I have to ask, your insight into these things and the way you speak about it is very NT like. As an SF, do you find that discussions about type theory (or any theory for that matter) are *draining* to you? Most SJs I've ever met get seriously drained at conceptual discussions, and they just can't wait to get back to their practical topics. Its quite refreshing to see someone represent the SJ temperament in such a relatable way. Especially for an SFJ, who usually wants nothing to do with this type of cerebral exercise.


I have a very close, intelligent, educated (phd) ISTJ friend. When he's talking about his own field, he can sound like an NT. But outside his element of expertise, he is disinterested in theoretical discussions and doesn't tolerate them for very long. But even within his element, his discussions will rarely get into speculative areas. 

To give a concrete example, you could perhaps ask an SJ physician about if he thinks viruses could cause cancer and expect a reasonable, even detailed response. But ask him if he thinks humans could evolve a biological form of telepathy and you'll probably be quickly dismissed as being silly or irrelevant. Some physicians I know are clearly ISFJ types, but when in their element could easily be mistaken for INTJs. 


A final though about Ne and "wanting change for any reason" that I saw above. At least with me...my Ne requires stimulation to work. That often entails some change in my environment to stimulate it...Ne wants to explore and experience new things. But it's change...when required. Perhaps the quaternary ENTP Si is enough to root me. 

As someone said above...if someone came in and rearranged my house when I was out, I would kill them. 

I also feel the same way....but it's not so much because someone upset my "system", it's because someone upset my "mess" and I no longer know where to find anything.


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

Recon777 said:


> I'd agree that Fe is potentially dangerous if misused. Especially Fe doms. Double especially ESFJs because they don't have the intuition to know how to work on other people's emotions properly.
> 
> In particular Fe is more dangerous than Te because Te is more out in the open and while it can feel very overbearing at times, I think Fe is more overbearing because it is harder to read its intentions, being that its all about changing the internal person of someone else, rather than the external goals and products. In my dealings with ENTJs I find them very abrasive and driven, but at least what you see is what you get. I also understand why two ENTJs may not get along (as you mentioned), and I think it has something to do with ENTJs being all about what they personally value. If two ENTJs value different things, then they are going to clash big time, because of all the types, the ENTJs are probably the most convinced that _they_ are right.


Well, I think it really kind of depends on the exact situation and the people involved. Part of it is what is more likely to damage individual people, and it also kind of depends on the relationship of the people involved as well. 

I only know one person who I suspect to be an ESFJ. I find her very easy to get along with, because I don't have a problem not correcting her where I disagree with her (of course, she's much older than I am...old enough to be my mom, so I think that's part of the reason why I feel it's kind of futile trying to correct her...she believes very strongly in what she does at this point). I think Te users, especially those who use Ni, would be driven crazy by this because they're so truth driven. But for me, the Si/Fe boundaries are easy to keep up.

Meanwhile, I have much more trouble with ENTJs because I feel they intrude upon my personal boundaries more often. Sometimes they do it to the point where I can't even be around them or interact with them.

But again, this just goes back to the natural friction Ni/Te will have with Si/Fe. They both have very different goals, so they'll be pulling in opposite directions. 



Recon777 said:


> Your description of your family kind of blows out the genetics theory, unless its only a mild influence. I mean, how does an ENTJ and ISTJ produce an ENFP? It doesn't seem possible if the functions are inherited. Where did the massive Ne come from? Yes ISTJs have Ne but not much. Also where did your Fe come from, given neither of your parents have that at all. I was hoping that there would be some sort of substance to the inherited function theory, because I like the idea of kids sharing similar function traits as their parents, as it makes sense that parents would be more effective at raising up kids who are not totally unrelatable to them.





azdahak said:


> There have been studies. Personality is fairly inheritable -- identical twins reared apart tend to have remarkably similar personalities. But it doesn't come down to something as simple as Punnet Square recessive/dominate traits. It's more akin to something like eye color or intelligence-- perhaps hundreds of genes which go into shaping a base personality.
> 
> My parents ESTJ/ESFP had 4 boys INTJ/ESTP/ENTP/ISFJ.



I think azdahak explained that part pretty well.





azdahak said:


> I have a very close, intelligent, educated (phd) ISTJ friend. When he's talking about his own field, he can sound like an NT. But outside his element of expertise, he is disinterested in theoretical discussions and doesn't tolerate them for very long. But even within his element, his discussions will rarely get into speculative areas.
> 
> To give a concrete example, you could perhaps ask an SJ physician about if he thinks viruses could cause cancer and expect a reasonable, even detailed response. But ask him if he thinks humans could evolve a biological form of telepathy and you'll probably be quickly dismissed as being silly or irrelevant. Some physicians I know are clearly ISFJ types, but when in their element could easily be mistaken for INTJs.


Yeah, I think this is totally on point. ISJs are actually known for becoming quite obsessed in the areas they're interested in. Even though a lot of MBTI books describe more "sensory" areas (like collecting rare items), I could see it happening with almost any area.

So SJs certainly can be very very knowledgeable in any area. Sometimes I think there's a perception that SJs don't care about learning, which isn't true. 


As azdahak said...the difference is that ISJs are probably much less likely to be interested in discussing new ideas in a variety of areas. 


I know for me, the MBTI serves a practical purpose as well. Even though a lot of it is just theoretical fun for me, it also has helped me a lot, and that's driven me to learn even more about it. I can see how my Si, my Fe, and my Ti have led me to have such an interest in it.


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## Recon777 (May 24, 2013)

teddy564339 said:


> I only know one person who I suspect to be an ESFJ. I find her very easy to get along with, because I don't have a problem not correcting her where I disagree with her (of course, she's much older than I am...old enough to be my mom, so I think that's part of the reason why I feel it's kind of futile trying to correct her...she believes very strongly in what she does at this point). I think Te users, especially those who use Ni, would be driven crazy by this because they're so truth driven. But for me, the Si/Fe boundaries are easy to keep up.


Oh my oh my oh my, yeah that drives me crazy. I just can't deal with ESFJs in the sense of trying to really have a relationship with one. I have an ESFJ grandmother who I've always been pretty close to growing up (before my Te developed). Its really hard to maintain that now though. I think I just associated her personality with old people. I had no idea it was just how some people are their whole lives. You're right in that being truth driven DOES drive me crazy when dealing with ESFJs. I don't know how anyone can possibly be so firm and stubborn about _opinions_.



teddy564339 said:


> Meanwhile, I have much more trouble with ENTJs because I feel they intrude upon my personal boundaries more often. Sometimes they do it to the point where I can't even be around them or interact with them.


Ahh I can see how that would be true. ENTJs are a type which I do not enjoy being around, because their Te is stronger than mine, and I don't like their bulldozer tactics. The ENTJ I have had the most trouble with is an elder at my church, and his father is an ESTJ. So... he's got that "traditional values" background from being raised by SJs augmented by a fair bit of Ni, so he's quite the mixed bag. I can see influences of both Si and Ni in him, which is hard to keep up with. Today he was at my place and we watched a good movie. He asked if I had some sort of online service I subscribed to where I bought my movies. I didn't dare mention what bittorrent was... That's his Si upbringing and hyper-morality coming into play. Most of the folks in my church know he's overbearing in this way.

INTJs have a lot more tact (which is really saying something) and sensitivity toward others than ENTJs. I think though, that my comment about Fe being more dangerous was a subjective statement based on the fact that INTJs are not very well equipped to handle an Fe dom. Te doms we can handle as long as they are not our bosses. If an ENTJ (or ESTJ) is _not_ in a position of authority over me (and lets face it, more times than not they _are_...) then I can fairly well hold them off with my own auxiliary Te enough to not get run over by them. It doesn't always work of course, but our primary Ni gives us a defensive advantage and if necessary we can make a strategic retreat before it gets too messy. Usually, the INTJ can out-logic the ENTJ and destroying the ENTJs argument is a pretty good way to get them frustrated enough to back off. Not that they'd ever concede we were right, but I've been in extensive debates with ENTJs, only to have them give up due to not being able to outmaneuver the logic. Then they usually resort to ad hominems, and at that point its all over.

Fe doms though - they scare me. They have personal insight into _my_ motives which gives me a very unsettling feeling, and the way that they get under your skin is too disturbing for my tastes. I have no proper defense against it.


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

Recon777 said:


> Oh my oh my oh my, yeah that drives me crazy. I just can't deal with ESFJs in the sense of trying to really have a relationship with one. I have an ESFJ grandmother who I've always been pretty close to growing up (before my Te developed). Its really hard to maintain that now though. I think I just associated her personality with old people. I had no idea it was just how some people are their whole lives. You're right in that being truth driven DOES drive me crazy when dealing with ESFJs. I don't know how anyone can possibly be so firm and stubborn about _opinions_.


Yeah, Si can be very stubborn a lot of times, especially when compared to Ni. A lot of it is down to personal comfort and the difficulty it takes for an Si user to change a perception of something. Here's an analogy I mentioned in one of the other threads about Si vs. Ni:



> I've tried to come up with a good analogy for dominant Si before, and this was the best one I could come up with: It's like being underground and having to dig tunnels.
> 
> 
> So if you start in one place, you have no choice but to choose a direction to dig in. You keep digging and digging and digging in one direction. But let's say something tips you off that you've been going in the wrong direction. For example, let's say you've been going east and you really should have been going north.
> ...






The other thing about Si is....you remember how we discussed the way that an SJ's upbringing can affect their mindsets for a long time? Well, this also holds true for older people. They've had more experience living than younger SJs...so they've become even more set in their ways. If they know that their way of viewing the world has worked for them for 60 something years, then they'll see very little reason to change it for the last 20 or so. They probably also tend to believe that once younger people get to their age they'll have those same experiences and will then agree with them.

Now, to a degree, this is probably true for all people in general. Everybody learns things as they get older, and most people probably feel like younger people still have a lot to learn.

But with SJs...this becomes even more firmly in place, because everything they know is based so heavily in personal experience.






Recon777 said:


> Ahh I can see how that would be true. ENTJs are a type which I do not enjoy being around, because their Te is stronger than mine, and I don't like their bulldozer tactics. The ENTJ I have had the most trouble with is an elder at my church, and his father is an ESTJ. So... he's got that "traditional values" background from being raised by SJs augmented by a fair bit of Ni, so he's quite the mixed bag. I can see influences of both Si and Ni in him, which is hard to keep up with. Today he was at my place and we watched a good movie. He asked if I had some sort of online service I subscribed to where I bought my movies. I didn't dare mention what bittorrent was... That's his Si upbringing and hyper-morality coming into play. Most of the folks in my church know he's overbearing in this way.


Yeah, religion can throw a whole new element into all of this as well, because it really can have a way of cementing certain ideas into Je users. 



Recon777 said:


> INTJs have a lot more tact (which is really saying something) and sensitivity toward others than ENTJs. I think though, that my comment about Fe being more dangerous was a subjective statement based on the fact that INTJs are not very well equipped to handle an Fe dom. Te doms we can handle as long as they are not our bosses. If an ENTJ (or ESTJ) is _not_ in a position of authority over me (and lets face it, more times than not they _are_...) then I can fairly well hold them off with my own auxiliary Te enough to not get run over by them. It doesn't always work of course, but our primary Ni gives us a defensive advantage and if necessary we can make a strategic retreat before it gets too messy. Usually, the INTJ can out-logic the ENTJ and destroying the ENTJs argument is a pretty good way to get them frustrated enough to back off. Not that they'd ever concede we were right, but I've been in extensive debates with ENTJs, only to have them give up due to not being able to outmaneuver the logic. Then they usually resort to ad hominems, and at that point its all over.


This is where it gets really interesting to me because you can really see where different functions give different types advantages and disadvantages.

ISFJs are one of the worst debating types because we have Si and Ti. This makes it very difficult to think on the spot. It takes us a while to sort through all of our past experiences (which are also subjective and therefore aren't very useful in debates), and our Ti is very meticulous in trying to process information. So an NTJ will be very very fast for us....their Ni will allow them to connect dots very quickly, and their Te will make a strong decision pretty quickly. Another NTJ would be able to counter that pretty quickly with logic of their own. But an ISFJ would need tons of time to process all of it.

I think the main problem I've had with ENTJs is the sense of them not being able to leave me alone if they don't agree with something that I do that I feel doesn't affect them in any way. I may prefer to do something that I'm comfortable with, even if it's not 100% perfectly logical. It seems like most other types are willing to accept this and just let it be....but it feels like ENTJs tend to feel a need to give their input. It makes me feel more judged, and I have trouble relaxing around them because of it.

Of course, any type can do this...I've just noticed it more with the ENTJs that I know. It makes me feel more guarded around them because I feel like I can't be myself without being told I need to change something.


Now, personally, if I'm in a situation that affects them....like a work situation...then I will be "tougher" about it. In those situations, I know that my actions are impacting them, so I'm willing to take into account what they're saying without feeling judged. I guess it's because I feel like work is more "formal"....I don't need to completely 100% be myself anyway. I can sacrifice some of my own personal comforts in order to achieve a goal for a group.

But in a friendship or other personal relationship? I want to be able to be myself and not feel like I'm not accepted for who I am.



Recon777 said:


> Fe doms though - they scare me. They have personal insight into _my_ motives which gives me a very unsettling feeling, and the way that they get under your skin is too disturbing for my tastes. I have no proper defense against it.


It may just be due to my personal experiences with Fe doms (which is fairly limited), for some reason I don't feel like they try to change things about me the way that ENTJs do. I can't quite put my finger on why, and I'm trying to figure out how it relates to the functions. 

I think it may be that when it comes to things like social manners and social rules...I can go with the flow. If I feel like I need to do something to make someone else happy socially, I don't feel like I'm really changing who I am....I'm just doing what I have to do to make things go smoothly. I guess it's putting on an "act", but I don't really mind doing it, because it doesn't feel like a personal thing to me.


But I guess my Ti does feel like it gets trampled upon by an ENTJ's Te. I guess I feel more personally attached to it...like if something makes sense to me, I'll continue doing it. I feel like when an ENTJ would find a fault in the way I'm thinking about something, it feels like I"m being judged more.




I don't know, it's hard to say. It's not a universal thing. I'm not saying I would feel this way around every ENTJ. I also am sure there have been times Fe doms have gotten on my nerves too. But I do think there's at least some kind of connection to the functions, but I'm not exactly sure what it is.



For some reason, I've had much more luck with ESTJs. I think it's because they seem to put up more barriers. It feels like the Ni of ENTJs is always looking to change or improve things...so I think it feels like they're more likely to see something wrong with what I do and feel the need to change it. But with ESTJs, they seem to kind of accept the barriers more often...they just kind of accept the way that I am. They may not agree with it, but they don't feel as much of a need to try to change it. The Si stability seems to help out.


That's also why I get along with ISTJs extremely well.



So I don't know, there's a lot I"m not sure about. I don't how much of this is based only on my personal experiences, and how much of it is more general and could apply to other people with the same type combinations.


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## Recon777 (May 24, 2013)

teddy564339 said:


> Yeah, religion can throw a whole new element into all of this as well, because it really can have a way of cementing certain ideas into Je users.


Oh awesome, I'm so using that. I'm a Ji user I guess. I understand that its not my responsibility to convert the world, but its just my job to be obedient to the Lord the best I can, and apply the principles to my own life and my family. I understand that the external world is more the Lord's responsibility than mine, even though I speak the truth without compromise (Te) and am willing to defend it using all the logic and reason I have (Ni). Je users I guess would be those who feel compelled to run out and "fix" all the sinful bits of the world. That takes heaps of energy which I just don't have. Its also something I believe we were not called to do necessarily.


teddy564339 said:


> This is where it gets really interesting to me because you can really see where different functions give different types advantages and disadvantages.
> 
> ISFJs are one of the worst debating types because we have Si and Ti. This makes it very difficult to think on the spot. It takes us a while to sort through all of our past experiences (which are also subjective and therefore aren't very useful in debates), and our Ti is very meticulous in trying to process information. So an NTJ will be very very fast for us....their Ni will allow them to connect dots very quickly, and their Te will make a strong decision pretty quickly. Another NTJ would be able to counter that pretty quickly with logic of their own. But an ISFJ would need tons of time to process all of it.


Yep I can see how an ISFJ would be a very poor debater. Debate for the sake of debate isn't something I've been motivated by, but if I am challenged, I do like being able to hold my own. This is again, my I vs E which feels more motivated at maintaining myself than maintaining the world. Which brings me to...


teddy564339 said:


> I think the main problem I've had with ENTJs is the sense of them not being able to leave me alone if they don't agree with something that I do that I feel doesn't affect them in any way. I may prefer to do something that I'm comfortable with, even if it's not 100% perfectly logical. It seems like most other types are willing to accept this and just let it be....but it feels like ENTJs tend to feel a need to give their input. It makes me feel more judged, and I have trouble relaxing around them because of it.
> 
> Of course, any type can do this...I've just noticed it more with the ENTJs that I know. It makes me feel more guarded around them because I feel like I can't be myself without being told I need to change something.


I also feel guarded around ENTJs for the same reason. I can't relax around people like that truly. Even in a casual relationship I will feel like they are analyzing me for things to fix.

What's going on here is that Fe and Te are both "fix the world" functions. Fe and Te doms both feel compelled to apply this function externally and create change to bring their vision of the world into fruition. For the Fe dom, this takes the form of other people's harmony and emotions and personal well being. Something to remember is that Te doms aren't going to care one bit about how _you feel_. They care about what you _do_. Similarly, Fe doms don't care much at all about what you do but care a lot about how you feel. 

For Te doms, imagine someone walking through a factory that has dozens of pipes and valves and various pieces of machinery. As they walk through, they see a loose bolt. They stop and adjust it. They look around as they walk, and tweak a valve setting here and there to make it just right. They hear some rattle, and stop and find a loose part, and then call over a mechanic to have it fixed. This is what Te doms do. They feel _compelled_ to fix and adjust everything in the external world to make it function like a well tuned machine. For Te its about the doing, and for Fe its about the internals of _other_ people. Fe is just as compelled to fix things, but the things which they are fixing are on the inside of other people rather than those people's actions.


teddy564339 said:


> It may just be due to my personal experiences with Fe doms (which is fairly limited), for some reason I don't feel like they try to change things about me the way that ENTJs do. I can't quite put my finger on why, and I'm trying to figure out how it relates to the functions.


Yes its very likely that the Fe doms you've dealt with simply have seen nothing in you that they wish to tweak or fix. Even an ENTJ will be at peace around you if they assess your actions and don't see any improvements to be made. But in my experience, ENTJs rarely see nothing to fix. It depends on how well they know me. This is one reason I don't want to get to know an ENTJ closely, because the closer they know me the more my personal life is visible to them, and the more compelled they will feel to make adjustments in _my_ life... which irks me. They don't seem to get the message that if we want help we'll ask for it. At least that's my attitude anyway. I'm very capable of seeking help/advice/product info/etc when I need it. As far as Fe doms and me, I don't have much experience with them either, but as an INTJ, my feeling side is introverted, and third on the stack. Its _very_ private. I deliberately restrict who gets to see it. So when an Fe dom can see through my barrier and get a glimpse of stuff I never intended them to see, I get a very unsettling feeling about that. And if I think I can trust them, sometimes its actually very moving. Like suddenly this person can help me with my troubles. Then I feel I have already (unwittingly) opened up to them, and once an INTJ truly opens up emotionally to someone, there's quite a bit of stuff to unload. Our emotions run pretty deep but normally only our mates get to see it. This is why Fe doms are scary, because not everybody can be trusted. And if someone has x-ray glasses to our soul, tertiary Fi gets super edgy when people who we haven't _confirmed_ are trustworthy can see it anyway.



teddy564339 said:


> I think it may be that when it comes to things like social manners and social rules...I can go with the flow. If I feel like I need to do something to make someone else happy socially, I don't feel like I'm really changing who I am....I'm just doing what I have to do to make things go smoothly. I guess it's putting on an "act", but I don't really mind doing it, because it doesn't feel like a personal thing to me.


Yeah that may be part of it too. I feel the opposite of course. One thing an INTJ is by nature, is "true to self". I can't act, or pretend to be someone I'm not. So adjusting my social mannerisms to play along with someone else's expectations is just not going to happen. I can do it to a small degree but it makes me very uncomfortable. Usually I will pull that skill out _only_ if my Ni has determined that it will result in an even more awkward or uncomfortable outcome if I don't play along with their social expectations. See, someone with Aspergers is not going to make this adjustment, so I think there's a pretty distinct difference here between INTJs and Aspies. Still, being true to self is paramount for an INTJ, and so what you said about adjusting socially is one reason you are probably off the radar for Fe doms to come and make tweaks to your soul.



teddy564339 said:


> But I guess my Ti does feel like it gets trampled upon by an ENTJ's Te. I guess I feel more personally attached to it...like if something makes sense to me, I'll continue doing it. I feel like when an ENTJ would find a fault in the way I'm thinking about something, it feels like I"m being judged more.


Yeah again, remember Te doms don't really care much about what's going on in the inside of you. They aren't finding fault in your thinking unless you expose your thinking to them. They are very much _action observers_, and if they see a problem with your actions they will address it with you - and this does often come with suggestions about your thinking but truly they are guessing when it comes to this. Never assume an ENTJ has true insight into your personal inner workings. They are barely in touch with their own feelings, let alone yours. The problem comes from the fact that most ENTJs don't study this stuff and so they are not aware of their blindness to other people's inner workings. They look at the external actions and _make assumptions_ about your inner workings, usually based on what might cause _them_ to do what you're doing. Then they will proceed to judge you and give advice on how you can change. 



teddy564339 said:


> For some reason, I've had much more luck with ESTJs. I think it's because they seem to put up more barriers. It feels like the Ni of ENTJs is always looking to change or improve things...so I think it feels like they're more likely to see something wrong with what I do and feel the need to change it. But with ESTJs, they seem to kind of accept the barriers more often...they just kind of accept the way that I am. They may not agree with it, but they don't feel as much of a need to try to change it. The Si stability seems to help out.


Heh. as expected, I have problems on the opposite angle. ESTJs drive me crazy if they are in a position of influence or authority over me because they love love loooove to micromanage people, and INTJs (as well as ENFPs) hate hate haaaaaate being micromanaged. This micromanagement comes from the ESTJs primary Te looking to change the actions of the external individual, to bring about their internal vision (Si) of how it should be. But if their internal vision (Si) is not what that other person truly needs, then the micromanagement is going to be unwelcome and unhelpful. Si isn't sensitive enough to other people's situations to be forced on others. I can accept that Si is good for _you_ and your life, but man do *not* try and bend my life around that vision under any circumstances... ENTJs on the other hand, usually their Ni is sensitive enough to tell what kind of management is the most appropriate, and they know when to make _exceptions_ where TeSi doesn't really like to make exceptions for anything. In cases like this, "stability" becomes a hindrance. Especially in the IT world like where I've always worked. ESTJs are great managers of things like assembly lines or construction crews where adhering to strict procedures is paramount. But they suck at managing a bunch of computer programmers. So yeah, everybody has a role their best at.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Neverontime said:


> Every function could be regarded as a reflection of an autistic symptom, if people wanted to put it together in such a fashion, since the symptoms linked to autism are on the same spectrum as all other human mental processes. Sometimes in autism, these processes exist on a more extreme end of the spectrum. This is why autism is called a spectrum disorder.It's very unlikely to be function related.
> 
> There have been quite a few members here with an asd diagnosis and they have been different personality types. Which isn't exactly unexpected if you've met more than one person with autism, because each individual is different and affected in different ways.
> 
> ...


I am even wary of trying to cognitively type people with autism, as it also highly depends on the individual. Some have very extreme versions of it, others so mild you would never figure it out unless they told you. It is a cognitive disorder but it does exist in a spectrum, but it is also neurological and I wonder how meaningful it becomes to try to cognitively type more severe cases of autistic individuals since they will not and cannot fit the described patterns of cognitive type. Is the autistic child that seems to mostly live in its head, quite literally so, a Ji type, Pi type or something else? We don't know.

Which is to say that I don't think autistic people are untypable, especially those that are highly functioning, but I am not as keen to apply cognitive type to them.


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## PaladinX (Feb 20, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> I am even wary of trying to cognitively type people with autism, as it also highly depends on the individual. Some have very extreme versions of it, others so mild you would never figure it out unless they told you. It is a cognitive disorder but it does exist in a spectrum, but it is also neurological and I wonder how meaningful it becomes to try to cognitively type more severe cases of autistic individuals since they will not and cannot fit the described patterns of cognitive type. Is the autistic child that seems to mostly live in its head, quite literally so, a Ji type, Pi type or something else? We don't know.
> 
> Which is to say that I don't think autistic people are untypable, especially those that are highly functioning, but I am not as keen to apply cognitive type to them.



Which is probably why I am so difficult to type. I have my theories as to why that is, but I won't get into that here.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

ephemereality said:


> I am even wary of trying to cognitively type people with autism, as it also highly depends on the individual. Some have very extreme versions of it, others so mild you would never figure it out unless they told you. It is a cognitive disorder but it does exist in a spectrum, but it is also neurological and I wonder how meaningful it becomes to try to cognitively type more severe cases of autistic individuals since they will not and cannot fit the described patterns of cognitive type. Is the autistic child that seems to mostly live in its head, quite literally so, a Ji type, Pi type or something else? We don't know.
> 
> Which is to say that I don't think autistic people are untypable, especially those that are highly functioning, but I am not as keen to apply cognitive type to them.


Individuals with autism, even those on the severe end of the spectrum, still perceive information and still make judgements. So unless their functions remain undifferentiated, the would still have a type. I agree that those with severe autism would unlikely benefit from being typed anyway. 
High functioning individuals and those diagnosed with aspergers, that are interested in knowing their personality type, why not?
They will fit a type, just probably not the typical stereotypes, but then neither do most people. 

As is often pointed out on the forums, type isn't behavior, it's a habitual way of perceiving and judging information, that typically leads to certain behaviors. The difficulties and impairments that may be present due to an autistic spectrum disorder will likely prevent the development of certain skills and behaviors, that usually result from a particular cognitive function order. The P & J preferences are still applicable, even if they manifest in different behaviors. 
For example, a person with a condition resulting in difficulties surrounding empathy or recognizing social cues, could still be Judging primarily with a F function. They just won't become as adept at using the associated skills as a person without those same difficulties.


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## Recon777 (May 24, 2013)

Its true that typing people with abnormal mental conditions would be quite difficult. This isn't just true for autistic people, but other disorders such as schizophrenia, etc. would make it rather difficult to type someone. A good example of this would be my ex who I'm pretty sure is an INFJ based on the "good times" we've had together and how I know she is. But many of the better qualities of an INFJ I would say are largely missing in her, as she doesn't appear to have any real morals and does not truly care for others. INFJs care a lot about others and can often be quite altruistic. In the case of my ex, the damaged mind combined with NiFe is a very nasty combination indeed. She constantly falsely accuses people of things which they are not doing, and is quite delusional. But I still think she's an INFJ because of all the characteristics that fit from this type, and its a closer match than any other type. I'm not sure how useful it is to type someone with a mental health problem, but I say its probably better to know the natural type than not know at all. In fact, knowing someone's type can probably help understand a mental illness better because you can identify areas which the person behaves outside the norm of their type, and see that these parts are caused by the illness. An INFJ with antisocial personality disorder is going to behave significantly different than an ESTP with antisocial personality disorder.


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

Recon777 said:


> Oh awesome, I'm so using that. I'm a Ji user I guess. I understand that its not my responsibility to convert the world, but its just my job to be obedient to the Lord the best I can, and apply the principles to my own life and my family. I understand that the external world is more the Lord's responsibility than mine, even though I speak the truth without compromise (Te) and am willing to defend it using all the logic and reason I have (Ni). Je users I guess would be those who feel compelled to run out and "fix" all the sinful bits of the world. That takes heaps of energy which I just don't have. Its also something I believe we were not called to do necessarily.


Well, I guess it depends on what we mean by "Je user". I mean Je being a shorter way of writing "Te or Fe", so technically everyone is a Je user....but I was referring to people who have Te or Fe as either dominant or auxiliary functions, so for what I was referring to, "Je user" is the same thing as a J type, so you and I would still both be Je users under that definition.

You're interpreting "Je user" as meaning Je Dom, so basically any EJ type. So your point still stands and I agree with it....Je doms, whether they're using Te or Fe, will have the biggest desire of all of the types to "fix" things that they don't see as fitting or being right. They focus more on the external than the internal, and unlike EP types, they have a bigger need for external structure.




Recon777 said:


> Yep I can see how an ISFJ would be a very poor debater. Debate for the sake of debate isn't something I've been motivated by, but if I am challenged, I do like being able to hold my own. This is again, my I vs E which feels more motivated at maintaining myself than maintaining the world. Which brings me to...
> 
> I also feel guarded around ENTJs for the same reason. I can't relax around people like that truly. Even in a casual relationship I will feel like they are analyzing me for things to fix.



Yep, I agree with all of that.




Recon777 said:


> What's going on here is that Fe and Te are both "fix the world" functions. Fe and Te doms both feel compelled to apply this function externally and create change to bring their vision of the world into fruition. For the Fe dom, this takes the form of other people's harmony and emotions and personal well being. Something to remember is that Te doms aren't going to care one bit about how _you feel_. They care about what you _do_. Similarly, Fe doms don't care much at all about what you do but care a lot about how you feel.
> 
> For Te doms, imagine someone walking through a factory that has dozens of pipes and valves and various pieces of machinery. As they walk through, they see a loose bolt. They stop and adjust it. They look around as they walk, and tweak a valve setting here and there to make it just right. They hear some rattle, and stop and find a loose part, and then call over a mechanic to have it fixed. This is what Te doms do. They feel _compelled_ to fix and adjust everything in the external world to make it function like a well tuned machine. For Te its about the doing, and for Fe its about the internals of _other_ people. Fe is just as compelled to fix things, but the things which they are fixing are on the inside of other people rather than those people's actions.


Yeah, I think that's a really good way of describing it. Even for me as an Fe aux, I feel a desire to "fix" things that don't seem harmonious or don't seem to match up socially.

I think the key thing for me, though, is everyone feeling happy. If everyone's happy, I don't care how different they are socially, or if they have different beliefs, or anything like that. I don't know how much of this is me personally and how much of it is the difference that I feel as an ISFJ compared to an ESFJ. I do think ISFJs are much more shy about fixing conflicts...we tend to try to avoid them or "sweep them under the rug". I think it's our Si desire for consistency dominating our Fe desire of making everyone happy....we try to ignore a conflict to create that harmony rather than find a solution. It's a tough area for us and one that takes a lot of work for us to improve upon.




Recon777 said:


> Yes its very likely that the Fe doms you've dealt with simply have seen nothing in you that they wish to tweak or fix. Even an ENTJ will be at peace around you if they assess your actions and don't see any improvements to be made. But in my experience, ENTJs rarely see nothing to fix. It depends on how well they know me. This is one reason I don't want to get to know an ENTJ closely, because the closer they know me the more my personal life is visible to them, and the more compelled they will feel to make adjustments in _my_ life... which irks me. They don't seem to get the message that if we want help we'll ask for it. At least that's my attitude anyway. I'm very capable of seeking help/advice/product info/etc when I need it. As far as Fe doms and me, I don't have much experience with them either, but as an INTJ, my feeling side is introverted, and third on the stack. Its _very_ private. I deliberately restrict who gets to see it. So when an Fe dom can see through my barrier and get a glimpse of stuff I never intended them to see, I get a very unsettling feeling about that. And if I think I can trust them, sometimes its actually very moving. Like suddenly this person can help me with my troubles. Then I feel I have already (unwittingly) opened up to them, and once an INTJ truly opens up emotionally to someone, there's quite a bit of stuff to unload. Our emotions run pretty deep but normally only our mates get to see it. This is why Fe doms are scary, because not everybody can be trusted. And if someone has x-ray glasses to our soul, tertiary Fi gets super edgy when people who we haven't _confirmed_ are trustworthy can see it anyway.


Yeah, I think that sounds right too. I think I feel like my Ti is more private than my feeling parts. I guess it almost feels more natural for me to be flexible when it comes to my feelings, so that makes me very easy to get along with. It's almost like my desire to be likeable overrides any other personal desire I have to fight against something.


I think this is why Fi types often find Fe types to be shallow or feel that they don't have any morals or things like that. For me, my natural desire is to make someone happy and in return for them to like me for it. For me, that creates that harmony that I seek.

It's hard to say how much I "lie" for the sake of creating this. A lot of times I'll merely not voice my disagreement. If I have time, I tend to also very carefully word things, so I'll tell the truth, but only the parts that I feel will keep conflict low. Or I might try to word it in a way that sounds "nicer" or less likely to bother someone. Or I might point out another viewpoint, but also acknowledge that I understand where someone is coming from. So I tend to be a peacekeeper.

However, if I don't have time to think and I have to react on the spot, sometimes my gut reaction is to tell a lie just so I can get out of the situation. 

So it all kind of depends.

I think that's why I can tend to get along better with Fe doms...I'll find a way to create the harmony that they're looking for too, even if it means hiding things.

For example, I'm gay. A number of people in my life don't know that I am, though. I still see value in these types of relationships even though I know some of the people I know might have a problem with it. But this is part of myself that I hide so that I can focus on enjoying the parts of the relationship that work well.

I don't know if an Fi user would be able to do this. They might feel like that would be "living a lie" and that there's no point in having the relationship at all.


I think the Ni vs. Si difference comes into play because I think Ni/Fe users would be more apt to dig away and try to find out things about me. With an ESFJ, they'd probably be more likely to accept things about me at face value.


Now, with Te users....I think I tend to feel more "stupid" with them, because I feel like their Te is domineering towards my Ti. I think my Ti likes to keep things open, and I feel like theirs shuts it down.

But again...with STJs, this all feels much more impersonal to me. It's more like their Te is directed towards more external, impersonal things...like some physical problem to solve. That doesn't bother me as much.

With NTJs...everything feels more personal. It's almost like there's some mental, universal truth that they're trying to establish, and for me, it feels like I'm forced to agree with them or feel stupid around them. So I think that's where I feel like my Ti gets trampled upon.



So I think you're right about what we prefer to keep more private, and what areas we feel people intrude upon. 



Recon777 said:


> Yeah that may be part of it too. I feel the opposite of course. One thing an INTJ is by nature, is "true to self". I can't act, or pretend to be someone I'm not. So adjusting my social mannerisms to play along with someone else's expectations is just not going to happen. I can do it to a small degree but it makes me very uncomfortable. Usually I will pull that skill out _only_ if my Ni has determined that it will result in an even more awkward or uncomfortable outcome if I don't play along with their social expectations. See, someone with Aspergers is not going to make this adjustment, so I think there's a pretty distinct difference here between INTJs and Aspies. Still, being true to self is paramount for an INTJ, and so what you said about adjusting socially is one reason you are probably off the radar for Fe doms to come and make tweaks to your soul.



Yeah, and I think this is why you autism point in the OP doesn't quite seem to fit with me. The thing is that Te or Fe works with Si...for me, in areas concerning Fe/Fi, I'm probably more flexible than you are and am more willing to change and adapt. The same could be said with your Te vs. my Ti, and to a smaller degree, your Se vs. my Si. But that's the thing...we all have an extroverted function that helps balance out our introverted ones. 


I mean, I suppose in really really extreme case of an Si dom letting their Si be so dominant that they don't use their auxiliary function at all, I guess I could see a bit of a connection...but this reminds me more of an OCD type situation. And I don't know if anyone without a condition is even capable of having their dominant function be that strong...because even from a young age, we use our auxiliary functions with our dominant ones.



Recon777 said:


> Yeah again, remember Te doms don't really care much about what's going on in the inside of you. They aren't finding fault in your thinking unless you expose your thinking to them. They are very much _action observers_, and if they see a problem with your actions they will address it with you - and this does often come with suggestions about your thinking but truly they are guessing when it comes to this. Never assume an ENTJ has true insight into your personal inner workings. They are barely in touch with their own feelings, let alone yours. The problem comes from the fact that most ENTJs don't study this stuff and so they are not aware of their blindness to other people's inner workings. They look at the external actions and _make assumptions_ about your inner workings, usually based on what might cause _them_ to do what you're doing. Then they will proceed to judge you and give advice on how you can change.


Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. But I also think it explains why I have trouble establishing any sort of closeness with most NTJs...what I'm looking for in the relationship is completely different than what they are, so we end up kind of working against what we both naturally want. 


I always find Te funny in that way sometimes (and I think dom Fi users tend to feel the same). It's almost like Te is science and Fi is literature. Te makes life easier and solve problems...but for me at least, when it ignores feelings, it remove the reason for even living at all.

I think this is why for me, it tends to feel like Te is a more conservative function and Fi is a more liberal one. TJs always strike me as the most politically conservative types and FPs as the most liberal. And I end up feeling stuck in the middle, and I feel like neither of them understands the value in what the other one is offering. 



Recon777 said:


> Heh. as expected, I have problems on the opposite angle. ESTJs drive me crazy if they are in a position of influence or authority over me because they love love loooove to micromanage people, and INTJs (as well as ENFPs) hate hate haaaaaate being micromanaged. This micromanagement comes from the ESTJs primary Te looking to change the actions of the external individual, to bring about their internal vision (Si) of how it should be. But if their internal vision (Si) is not what that other person truly needs, then the micromanagement is going to be unwelcome and unhelpful. Si isn't sensitive enough to other people's situations to be forced on others. I can accept that Si is good for _you_ and your life, but man do *not* try and bend my life around that vision under any circumstances... ENTJs on the other hand, usually their Ni is sensitive enough to tell what kind of management is the most appropriate, and they know when to make _exceptions_ where TeSi doesn't really like to make exceptions for anything. In cases like this, "stability" becomes a hindrance. Especially in the IT world like where I've always worked. ESTJs are great managers of things like assembly lines or construction crews where adhering to strict procedures is paramount. But they suck at managing a bunch of computer programmers. So yeah, everybody has a role their best at.


Yeah, I like your example. I do think that STJs are better when there are details that need to be a particular way, and NTJs are better when there's a situation that needs organization but a lot of flexibility too. 

I think that's where my Si/Fe combination makes it easier. I don't mind going along with someone else's rules and structures unless I think the structures are really stupid. I think I would rather us all be on the same page and working towards a goal as long as I feel it's working well enough. I don't feel the need for as much personal freedom in those kinds of situations, and I also don't have a drive for perfection as much.


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

Recon777 said:


> Hey all. Ever since discovering MBTI as a topic of study, I've been aware of the perception of some which suggests that high functioning autistics or Aspergers people behave in similar ways to the INTJ personality. In fact, people have suggested that I had Aspergers as far back as 2006, and I simply assumed it was true, with the exception of a few typical A.S. traits that I never identified with.
> 
> However, after discovering that I was simply an INTJ with sensory perception sensitivity, rather than having Aspergers, things made a whole lot more sense and I abandoned the self diagnosis. After realizing that I am in fact, not an Aspie, I have been much more comfortable in social situations - that is to say, I am much more capable of handling them. I should not say comfortable, since INTJs don't really prefer shallow social events either.
> 
> ...


My psychologist had no interest in diagnosing me but my mother pretty much forced him to. I think he probably based everything on social difficulties and disinterest. Things like rigid routines, focus on a narrow topic and really not enjoying imaginative play or fiction. Some of these are not 100% required for diagnosis but I don't think I'm into any of them. In high probability he probably just combined social anxiety issues+monotone voice and concluded Aspergers it is. Aspergers patients supposedly are so narrow that they don't understand the big picture. I think I'm actually the opposite, I don't talk about smaller things like my favorite musicians because I don't really care to delve deep into it. I don't like mapping mental disorders to MBTI. I discovered my type before hearing about the possibility of Aspergers and that contributed to me being against the idea.


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## TaylorS (Jan 24, 2010)

I have Asperger's Syndrome and I am an Fi-Dom. IMO autistic people can be of any type.


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