# Question about 5w4 and 9w1



## Blickwinkel (May 15, 2012)

Okay, so I recently took a more detailed enneagram test. My two highest rated personality matches were 5w4 and 9w1. I read that 9w1's can often be mistyped as 5w4. I'm wondering if I could be a 9w1 instead of a 5w4. So myy question is, how can you tell the difference between the two? What are some of the major differences between these two types? Thanks.


----------



## sleepyhead (Nov 14, 2011)

A better place to start might be to think about what you relate to in each type.


----------



## Blickwinkel (May 15, 2012)

@sleepyhead 
Good point. I looked up the two wing types again on another site 

wing flavors

I'm definitely 5w4 according to this site. And quite honestly, an unhealthy 5w4 in many regards. Here are some lines that stood out to me.

"Analytical and detached from their emotions, but passionate about beauty and truth, they want to find the ultimate, simple explanation for everything. "

"They find great joy in watching and learning."

"Unbalanced 5/4 gets lost in the details. "

"Others Simply Do Not Understand."

"There is little to no social involvement."

Can I open up for a second? Those negative descriptions are the main reason I even started looking into stuff like the MBTI and Enneagram. I wanted an explanation for why I am the way I am, because I wanted to get past that stuff. I've let a lot of crap get in the way of me enjoying my life. And I sort of have that answer now why I let it bother me. But still, even though I know why its bothering me, I let it get to me. 

I notice you're a 5w4 sleepyhead. Have you ever felt like no one understands? Have you ever had those tendencies to pull away from everyone? If so, how do you deal with it? What helps you achieve balance when you're feeling unbalance?


----------



## Sonny (Oct 14, 2008)

This post should help.

Feeling misunderstood is something type 4s are known for, more than the average person that is, so you may find your answer in 5w4.


----------



## ImminentThunder (May 15, 2011)

5w4 and 9w1 are both withdrawn types, so they can appear similar, especially if the 5w4 is non-confrontational or the 9w1 emphasizes his intellect. Why did you consider 9, though? Which traits do you relate to?

The fact that you talk about being misunderstood points more towards a 4 influence, so right now I'm leaning towards 5w4. That site you linked had pretty good descriptions, IMO, and if you could relate more to the 5w4 then that's probably your type. 

This might help, too. However, it's a very general description, and obviously the two types can overlap a lot.
Personality Types: Enneagram Misidentifications - Type 5 - Enneagram and Myers Briggs

*5 and 9*

Mistyping frequency: very often (many 9s mistype as 5s)

*Five*
Intense
Strong-minded
Argumentative
Resistant
Suspicious
Focused
Penetrating
Theory
Particularities
Pessimistic
High-strung
Disconnect from others
Defensive
Complexify things
Discriminating
Detach

*Nine*
Soft
Easy-going
Comforting
Receptive
Trusting
Diffuse
Unfocused
Fantasy
Generalities
Optimistic
Peaceful
Merge with others
Accomodating
Simplify things
Accepting
Space-out

To me, 9w1s, even intellectual ones, seem to a have a lot less of an "edge" than 5s. They're more easygoing; 5s are rather intense from what I've seen (mentally, anyway).



> Can I open up for a second? Those negative descriptions are the main reason I even started looking into stuff like the MBTI and Enneagram. I wanted an explanation for why I am the way I am, because I wanted to get past that stuff. I've let a lot of crap get in the way of me enjoying my life. And I sort of have that answer now why I let it bother me. But still, even though I know why its bothering me, I let it get to me.



I think it's really good that you want to use both systems as an opportunity to improve.  Learning I was a 4w5 helped me get out a very dark place.



> Have you ever felt like no one understands? Have you ever had those tendencies to pull away from everyone? If so, how do you deal with it? What helps you achieve balance when you're feeling unbalance?


I'm a 4w5, but my 5 wing is strong, and I can relate to this almost exactly. I haven't really figured out how to deal with it. I know that people will have a hard time understanding me, and I'm used to being misunderstood....I do think I withdraw from people too much, and this drives them away. 

Expressing myself, especially through writing, helps a lot when I'm feeling imbalanced. It allows me to pour out all my thoughts and feelings in a way in which I can make coherent sense of them. It's also a good way of communicating how I feel to others. It's a lot easier than face-to-face interaction, which isn't my strong point. 

Getting involved in the real world is very difficult for me, as I'm a very "in my head" sort of person. Honestly, just working towards healthier levels is extremely difficult for me; I seem to keep sliding back whenever I make progress. You'll get there, though.  It just takes effort and time.


----------



## sleepyhead (Nov 14, 2011)

Blickwinkel said:


> @_sleepyhead_
> Good point. I looked up the two wing types again on another site
> 
> wing flavors
> ...


I'm always reserved about judging others types, especially online, but this is very similar to how I feel. I also came to the Enneagram as a way to try and understand why I am the way I am and figure out how to overcome some of my issues. It seems like that's a fairly common experience for 5's. As soon as I read a detailed description in one of the books, it was a huge relief for me because I had some explanation of how I was as well as a reflection of a lot of the issues I've had.

I would still say I feel few people truly understand me, but unlike when I was younger, I feel like I can now relate to folks despite this. I often pull away and that has been one of my primary issues - interacting with my external world. I'm lucky to have a work situation that easily allows me to withdraw when I really need to, and my friends and family know and respect my need for space. 

The biggest change for me in the last two years was getting more in depth information about the Enneagram and growth and Mindfulness Meditation. 5's usually have some way of detaching themselves from the present moment and my way is by constantly having an inner narrator describing what I'm doing. So I can be walking down the street and thinking, "I walked down the street and noticed the beautiful flower." But I'm not really present if I have to be narrating my experience. I'm present when I'm just experiencing it. Mindfulness meditation has been a really big aid in diminishing that narration as well as dealing with stress. I still struggle often with withdrawing but I try and use my urge to withdraw as a meditation practice to pay attention to how it feels. Sometimes I'm able to push myself but other times I still withdraw. I can clearly see my behaviour going in cycles but I'm also noticing that I'm catching the cycle faster and getting out of my ruts much quicker. 

I think the biggest challenge with overcoming the main issues of any Enneagram type have to do with the fact that we're all trying to break patterns that we've been using for our whole lives. So undoing 25 years of being one way to try and be a different way is not an easy task and takes a lot of patience and self compassion. Being able to accept things as they are, even if they don't feel very good is not an easy thing to do.


----------



## Mizmar (Aug 12, 2009)

sleepyhead said:


> 5's usually have some way of detaching themselves from the present moment and my way is by constantly having an inner narrator describing what I'm doing. So I can be watching down the street and thinking, "I walked down the street and noticed the beautiful flower."


I do that sometimes too. Except in my case it's always in the 3rd person and in past tense. Also, it usually only comments on internal states rather than external behaviors. So it will be something like, "Mizmar was feeling fed up with the situation"; or "He always had a lot of respect for that individual". 



> I think the biggest challenge with overcoming the main issues of any Enneagram type have to do with the fact that we're all trying to break patterns that we've been using for our whole lives. So undoing 25 years of being one way to try and be a different way is not an easy task and takes a lot of patience and self compassion.


Self-compassion is very important. I find beating myself up just keeps me in the same rut and doesn't do anything for myself or anyone else. Unfortunately, beating myself up comes so naturally to me. That in itself is a hard patern for me to break.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

What will really complicate things is if you have both in your tritype like myself (although 9w8 here) 

In those cases you need to ask yourself what you fear the most based on the type's holy idea. 



> The Holy Ideas represent _specific non-dual perspectives of Essence_—particular ways of knowing and recognizing the unity of Being. They are what naturally arises in a clear, quiet mind when a person is present and awake, seeing reality as it actually is. The loss of a Holy Idea leads to a particular ego-delusion about the self or reality, called the type's Ego-fixation. Through the ego-fixation, the person is trying to restore the balance and freedom of the Holy Idea, but from the dualistic perspective of ego, cannot. Again, understanding the perspective of our type's Holy Idea functions as an antidote to the ego-fixation. The non-dual perspective of our true nature is restored as we see through the particular delusions of our type.


5's holy idea is Omniscience and 9's Holy Love, as described below:

Holy Idea: _Holy Omniscience, Holy Transparency_ Holy Omniscience is a direct apprehension of the knowing-ness, the awake-ness of Essence. Essence experiences reality through our organism, through our senses and perceptions. Looked at from this perspective, the human being is like a sense organ for the Divine awareness. The universe knows _itself_ through us. When we are present and abiding in our true nature, our minds become clear, and we know the immense, brilliant intelligence of Essence that is the basis for our limited, ego minds. 


This clarification of the mind also results in the clarification of boundaries: we "see through" boundaries, recognizing them as arbitrary inventions of the mind. In reality, everything is distinguishable, but a oneness. We can discriminate color, texture, form, and movement, but do not see these phenomena as separate objects. Rather, we see both the endlessly transforming manifestation of reality as well as its underlying depths. We ourselves feel completely transparent—everything passes through us, nothing "sticks" in our consciousness. We perceive reality with a penetrating, brilliant clarity that does not require the exertions of the ego mind to understand. 



Holy Idea: _Holy Love_ Holy Love is the recognition that all is one _and_ that the oneness is ultimately benevolent and supportive. From this perspective we truly experience the well-known spiritual assertion that everything actually is made from Divine Love. When we truly know this, we relax our ego activity and trust Being to support us. It is almost unfathomable to the ego mind that not only could we be loved by the Divine, but that we are actually made of that love. The knowledge lets us move through our lives with deep compassion, nobility, and unshakable inner peace. 


We can also see how Holy Love relates to the virtue of Action, because love itself has a dynamic affect on our souls. What transforms our lives more powerfully than love? What transforms our sense of ourselves more profoundly? Love is not static: it is living, dynamic force that melts down all barriers and boundaries, constantly working to restore our awareness to its pristine unity with Truth. In Holy Love, our sense of separateness dissolves, and we know ourselves as arising from the brilliant light of Divine Love that creates and sustains the universe. 

The true motivation for any enneagram is to therefore reconnect with its associated holy idea, and the fears are a result of initially feeling disconnected (we reconnect through integration). Fixation descriptions of 5 and 9 in that order (the asterisk marks that Riso-Hudson changed the actual term to mean something different in this context):


Fixation: _Stinginess [Retention]*_ Stinginess refers to the ego mind's tendency to hold onto experiences and information in an effort to build up knowledge and power and to maintain a familiar orientation with reality. It is as if the mind were stockpiling resources to prepare for some future catastrophe. Thus, Fives spend their time gathering information, skills, and resources to "build themselves up," as if they were creating a separate space in which to prepare themselves to re-enter reality.** 


The problem is that identifying with the mind this way detaches us from the support of our Being and from feeling connected with the world. Further, if Fives are continually thinking that they need more and more information or skill before they can really live, it is going to be very difficult to get their lives started, and it is also going to be frightening to give, to be generous with one's self. It is as if Fives are thinking "There is not enough of me even for me. If others want things from me, there won't be anything left. I need time to build myself up." However, no amount of studying, learning, or hoarding makes them feel any more ready to deal with their lives. 


**With regards to 5w4, I have written an article in the INTP subforum about the way the INTP 5w4 attempts to re-enter reality in art: http://personalitycafe.com/intp-articles/111283-intp-enneagram-5w4-art.html (I could tell you were an INTP from your writing style :tongue 


Fixation: _Indolence [Daydreaming]*_ The loss of the Holy Idea of Holy Love results in the ego-fixation of indolence. It is a style of attention that causes us to avoid deep contact with our interiority. We might be aware of others or of the environment, but we are not aware of what is happening in our presence. Even if we are able to be present to some degree, indolence causes us to _be present without content_. Of course, as we become more entranced by this fixation, we also lose any meaningful awareness of others too. 
Because of the loss of Holy Love, the self feels lost and centerless, but indolence causes us to cover over the wound of that loss by withdraw from it into the "safety" of our imaginations. We may deal with it by adopting comforting philosophies, or by focusing on and idealizing others. We learn to disengage our attention from the core of ourselves so we will not feel the suffering caused by our loss of contact with Essential love, the very core of ourselves. 


Thus, Nines become the masters of dissociation, of mentally "checking out" when situations threaten to uncover the primal loss of contact with Holy Love. In their imaginations they create an imitation of the real feelings of wholeness and benevolence that arise in presence and real contact with experience. This inner feeling of peace is then defended against the actual dynamic processes of reality—thus, indolence serves to perpetuate sloth. When Nines retreat into their inner reality, they deal with other peoples' demands, either by agreeing to them or deflecting them. They want to minimize the chances of getting into conflicts or disagreements with others because this would upset their inner peace. On the surface, Nines seem quite easy going, agreeable, and adaptable. They are friendly and do not seem to mind going along with the wishes of others, but on a deeper level, Nines do not want to be made to change, or to be other than who and what they are already comfortable with. 



Ultimately, you need to ask yourself what you fear the most - is it to not know anything (desiring omniscience) or is to not love oneself (holy love)? I am leaning towards 5w4 based on what you've provided thus far, though.


----------



## NeedsNewNameNow (Dec 1, 2009)

there isn't a lot between 5 and 9 that is mutually exclusive. Do you find that you act like a 9 around others and a 5 by yourself?

One theory says that if you are torn between 9 and another type, then you are probably a 9 because it has traits of all the other types.

Or you might look at tri-types, where you can be both a 5 and a 9, and you just have to figure out your image fix


----------

