# Why in the fuck are ENFPs regarded as the most introverted extraverts?



## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Seriously, it makes no sense. First of all they're feelers so they have more of a need to connect with people whether it's Fe or Fi, the vast majority of them are enneagram 7, arguably the most extraverted enneagram type, most are either So variant or Sx variant doms. They have ESFP levels of energy and talk just as much, their schtik is that they're random and off the wall but somehow they're supposed to be the most introverted extrovert. 

I understand Ne is abstract and not really oriented towards people but rather ideas. But then why can't I say the same about Se? That it's just oriented to the outside world and not necessarily people? I understand ENFPs need alone time but this isn't unique to Ne doms, all extraverts need alone time to some degree.

If anything ENTJ or ESTJ should be the most introverted extravert considering they're Te doms and thinking is impersonal. Many look like introverts, are less excitable, can be cold. They display much more introvert traits than any other extravert. If we go by how extraverted a function is it should go Fe>Se>Ne>Te>Fi>Si>Ni>Ti so where does this idea that ENFPs are the most introverted extravert even come from? It fails from a theoretical standpoint and isn't true in real life either.


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## Gilead (Oct 5, 2017)

Yes, it is very stupid.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Spoken like a true ISTP. Introverted feeling and extraverted feeling don't necessarily yearn for the same thing. Feeling does not automatically equal social.

To be honest I think it is less about how ENFPs are perceived and more about how they internally view themselves. I think I come across as a lot more confident and outgoing than I actually think I am and that's mostly because ENFPs yearn for deep connection thanks to Fi but not a superfluous one. Fe cares a lot more for the average person. So a lot of us don't like social interaction with people other than our close friends. My partner is convinced I'm more ambiverted mostly comparatively 'outgoing' isn't a trait people associate with me, at least once they know me.

I've been trying to do more work on ennaegram. I think I'm 7 sp, which kind of contradicts itself, I don't relate to the hyper energetic and outgoing levels of the 7 but I do relate to the fears and goals of type 7. I wish there was as much out there for ennaegram as there is for MBTI.


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## atamagasuita (May 15, 2016)

True. I don't even see those enfps as introverts, unless they're mistyped


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## Drecon (Jun 20, 2016)

The reason for the statement is that Ne-dominants tend to do a lot of their extraverting 'inside their heads'. I have an ENFP friend that spends most of his time on his own in his room. Making music, starting projects... stuff like that. 

The problem is that the definitions for extravert and introvert are different for MBTI than for common speech. In common speech extravert means going to parties and always having other people around. For MBTI it means "leading with an extraverted function". 
This means that an MBTI extravert can be someone who stays at home a lot and is in introvert in the common speech definition. 

Honestly: I think we need better words for pretty much everything in personality theory.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

@Drecon I mean that sounds more like Te and when I use Se I'm not just acting, I'm thinking while doing. I really dont see why people attribute this to just Ne tbh


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Aluminum Frost said:


> @Drecon I mean that sounds more like Te and when I use Se I'm not just acting, I'm thinking while doing. I really dont see why people attribute this to just Ne tbh


Well the difference here is that Se _is_ acting whilst Ne isn't. And yeah, maybe you have a point, maybe an ENFP utilises Te when they are working on projects but they still lead with Ne which does not always lead to working on projects.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

@Falling Foxes I still don't see the difference. If I'm introspecting while acting then that's introverting. Acting in and of itself is not extraverting. Or else you can be an extravert without even needing or wanting to talk to people. Interacting with people would be extraverting. Also isn't working on projects and stuff as was mentioned a physical activity? And like Se don't you need to act in order to use Ne? Whether it be talking ideas out loud or exploring possibilities?


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## Gilead (Oct 5, 2017)

"Introverted extrovert" purely from typological perspective is meaningless - it cancels out. And the idea that certain extroverted functions are "more extroverted" has absolutely no use for anything. 

The fact that words have different meanings in the theory than in the colloquial sense is not an excuse. Differentiating between (situational) sociability and (habitual) function attitude is not that difficult. If it is, introverted ENFPs might just as well type as INFPs.

If the meaning is to - by "introverted extrovert" or "extroverted introvert" - explain that one isn't clearly one or the other, the word "ambivert" exists.


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## Drecon (Jun 20, 2016)

I think I confused the thread with the beginning of my post. My main point was that extrovert and introvert mean something different when talking about MBTI than when talking to random people on the street.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

The point is the contradiction is not whether Ne is an extraverted function but the contradiction between the definitions of extravert in MBTI and extravert in the social sense. MBTI extraverts lead with extraverted functions however too many tests rely on deciphering if you are more social extravert as opposed to an extraverted function dom.

What you say is right, we do say things outloud or explore the possibilities in some way but that doesn't always require another person to be present. Ne doesn't always need people to breathe (I suppose it's the same for all extraverted functions). But the point is more often than not you could just give a Ne-dom access to the internet or various tools and supplies in a room alone and they will be able to let their Ne run wild which is what makes us appear introverted.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Again, could say the same of Se users and Te users


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## VinnieBob (Mar 24, 2014)

Aluminum Frost said:


> Seriously, it makes no sense. First of all they're feelers so they have more of a need to connect with people whether it's Fe or Fi, the vast majority of them are enneagram 7, arguably the most extraverted enneagram type, most are either So variant or Sx variant doms. They have ESFP levels of energy and talk just as much, their schtik is that they're random and off the wall but somehow they're supposed to be the most introverted extrovert.
> 
> I understand Ne is abstract and not really oriented towards people but rather ideas. But then why can't I say the same about Se? That it's just oriented to the outside world and not necessarily people? I understand ENFPs need alone time but this isn't unique to Ne doms, all extraverts need alone time to some degree.
> 
> If anything ENTJ or ESTJ should be the most introverted extravert considering they're Te doms and thinking is impersonal. Many look like introverts, are less excitable, can be cold. They display much more introvert traits than any other extravert. If we go by how extraverted a function is it should go Fe>Se>Ne>Te>Fi>Si>Ni>Ti so where does this idea that ENFPs are the most introverted extravert even come from? It fails from a theoretical standpoint and isn't true in real life either.


don't be a hater
only a NF could love a NT
it's NF's that keep the NT's from taking over the world and enslaving all ST's


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## Cherry (May 28, 2017)

"why in the fuck" are you so angry about it? calm down.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Aluminum Frost said:


> Again, could say the same of Se users and Te users


So really, in conclusion, Fe-doms are the only true 'extraverts'.


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## Drecon (Jun 20, 2016)

Aluminum Frost said:


> Again, could say the same of Se users and Te users


True. In fact it goes for Fe-users too sometimes. 

I guess Ne-users are most commonly mistyped as introverts, compared to the other types, but that's just a statistical thing, not a truth about the type as a whole. 

I agree that it would be better to forget the whole thing, although on the internet, that's easier said than done. There's millions of people interested in MBTI, socionics and stuff like that, all putting their own theories out there.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

I'm not, a lot of stuff said about types just makes no sense


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## spaceynyc (Feb 18, 2017)

@Aluminum Frost

i think the issue here is that extroversion in the sense of MBTI is not meant in a social sense...

extroversion just means being focused on things in the outer world externally 

introversion means being focused on things detached from the outer world and being focused internally 

also extroversion = objectivity where as introversion = subjectivity

they don't really have much to do with being social which is why you can kind of have shy extroverts in MBTI and outgoing introverts. it's not about how social they are it's about where they are directing their focus

now when you are focused on the outside world predominantly your chances of coming across social is heavily increased but not necessarily guaranteed & vice versa for introverts


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## Hunter1611 (Apr 27, 2010)

> they don't really have much to do with being social which is why you can kind of have shy extroverts in MBTI and outgoing introverts.


I've found that a lot of extroverts identify as introverts for varying reasons. I look at them and based on typing see a very obvious extrovert (in the MBTI sense). I think every person needs some degree of alone time and only a very unhealthy extrovert won't recognize this. And then once someone recognizes that they need some alone time, they proclaim themselves to be an introvert (meanwhile, I'm fighting the urge to laugh). 
But as a few people already pointed out, having an extroverted function in the lead doesn't mean it has to be directed at people. A Te orders their environment and focuses on goals. An Se can go off on a long solo hiking trip. An Ne can climb on the internet. An Fe be contented in staying at home and only spending time with their immediate family. Extroverting in the traditional sense is more often than not a developed skill and not necessarily a born preference.


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## anorganizedmess (Oct 31, 2016)

It really doesn't make sense since most of the ENFP's I've met can't shut up but it's rather that they are more "internal" so therefore more "introverted"? The Ne-Fi combination tends to be soul-searching and self-referential.


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## Hunter1611 (Apr 27, 2010)

> It really doesn't make sense since most of the ENFP's I've met can't shut up but it's rather that they are more "internal" so therefore more "introverted"? The Ne-Fi combination tends to be soul-searching and self-referential.


I've actually never heard of this so called "ENFPs are regarded as the most introverted extroverts" thing. However, I HAVE heard that said about ENFJs... and ENTPs... maybe this is just indicative of the type of whoever is making the statement.  (or writing the article)


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## Birbsofafeather (May 18, 2017)

I agree with the claim that ENxP's are the most introverted extroverts, but probably not for the reasons everyone else does. I'm going to write a mini-essay for fun, since I've been thinking about this a lot. Most of this is my internal understanding of Jungian functions rather than MBTI.

The Argument

The majority of people on this earth are socially considered ambiverts, but Jungian personality types describe perspective and processing, not personality or behavior. I agree with Jung a lot on this. For him, the introvert and extrovert aspect of the functions determined if the function itself went through a layer of biased processing or not, and if it was externally focused. Introverted functions are run through an internally biased lens and extroverted. I believe that this understanding of cognitive functions is one that is more useful and thorough to me.

This difference is the most important in terms of judging functions. If I had to make a hierarchy of how grounded and used in external reality functions are, it would look like this... Se>Je>Si>Ji>Ne>Ni

Judging functions

Judging functions are the most impacted by introvert/extrovert. Fi and Ti have more in common with one another than with Fi and Fe, Ti and Te.

Fi is the focus of internal emotions, Fe is the focus of external emotions. When an Fi dom looks at the outside world, they process the emotional world through a personalized lens. When they see an outside emotional stimuli, they are internally processing it and comparing it to their internal emotional framework, of values and biases and the stimuli itself no longer becomes important to them but rather how it has been processed. The way they have processed the emotion is much more important to them than the event that struck the emotion. When an Fe dom looks at an outside emotional stimuli, their attention is fully on it. The important thing to them is always the stimuli or event itself, the way that it impacted the world outside of them. In other words, an Fi dom would focus a lot on the way witnessing a fight made them feel, on how it impacted their internal values and framework vs an Fe dom, who would focus on the emotionality of the situation itself.

For Ti and Te, Te is intrinsically outwardly focused. It is the desire to use thinking in a way that can alter and understand the outside world. Productivity, communication, understanding. The purpose of the logic is to be tied to the real world. This is why, at the end of the day, an ENTJ and an ESTJ are quite extroverted in terms of their focus. Both types, as a result of being Te dominant, are very focused on the real world, practicality and productivity, but more so in terms of planning or success. Ti, meanwhile, runs the thinking-based stimuli (usually new information) through its internal filter and figures out how it can fit in. The use of the information is building a framework inside the Ti-dom, making the information useful inside of their mind rather than outside of it.

Perceiving functions
Percieving functions are most closely linked with one another. Si and Se are more linked than Ni and Ne. An introverted perceiving function involves the subconscious and an extroverted percieving function involves the conscious. Sensing is more concerned with reality and the real world than intuition, which is concerned with a seperate understanding and processing of the environment.

Sensing is very, very rooted in the outside external world. By definition, it is intrinsically focused on it. For Si and Se, this is a very obvious. Se is constantly in touch with stimuli directly- no processing whatsoever. It sees the stimuli exactly as it is, and from there, uses other functions to make use of it. The purpose of Se is decided by the judging function, whether it is Fi or Ti. Jung regarded Si as the most biased function, and I'd have to agree. When Si sees a stimuli, they see the stimuli as it is for a brief period of time, immediately comparing it to all of the past experiences and former beliefs they held. Si sees the stimuli as consistent or inconsistent with the rules of the external world as they have processed it. 

Intuition, meanwhile, is a detached function. It involves the internal breakdown of reality into connections and patterns by the person, and the primary difference in introverted and extroverted intuition is its orientation. No matter if it is Ne or Ni, it is apart from the outside world because it has involved a layer of internal processing. Ni is almost entirely internal, looking at patterns of itself, namely, the subconscious. It takes in a stimuli, adds it to an external database and then integrates it into the subconscious. The reason Ni can "predict the future" is because it has been examining the subconscious for patterns and possibilities. Ne, meanwhile, examines patterns and possibilities consciously. It looks at a stimuli and consciously sees the things it can do with it, the possibilities of what the stimuli implicates.

But at the end of the day, Ne is seperated from external and extroverted, because intuition is seperated from reality. This is why even if it is focused outwardly, Ne behaves almost like an introverted function because of the amount of internal processing and bias it involves. 

Hence why Ne doms are the most introverted (ie internally processing) extroverts.


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## anorganizedmess (Oct 31, 2016)

Aluminum Frost said:


> Seriously, it makes no sense. First of all they're feelers so they have more of a need to connect with people whether it's Fe or Fi, the vast majority of them are enneagram 7, arguably the most extraverted enneagram type, most are either So variant or Sx variant doms. They have ESFP levels of energy and talk just as much, their schtik is that they're random and off the wall but somehow they're supposed to be the most introverted extrovert.
> 
> I understand Ne is abstract and not really oriented towards people but rather ideas. But then why can't I say the same about Se? That it's just oriented to the outside world and not necessarily people? I understand ENFPs need alone time but this isn't unique to Ne doms, all extraverts need alone time to some degree.
> 
> If anything ENTJ or ESTJ should be the most introverted extravert considering they're Te doms and thinking is impersonal. Many look like introverts, are less excitable, can be cold. They display much more introvert traits than any other extravert. If we go by how extraverted a function is it should go Fe>Se>Ne>Te>Fi>Si>Ni>Ti so where does this idea that ENFPs are the most introverted extravert even come from? It fails from a theoretical standpoint and isn't true in real life either.


You were just in another thread complaining about the use of letters, now you use them here? And with the logic you used here: "If anything ENTJ or ESTJ should be the most introverted extravert considering they're Te doms and thinking is impersonal." Well, intuition is impersonal as well and since Te is a Je function, they are inherently more extroverted by definition as judging takes more consideration for people in the outside world than possibilities such as Se/Ne.


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## Superfluous (Jan 28, 2014)

Te _is_ more extraverted than Ne. 

You are seeing introverted and extroverted in the _sociological_ definition rather than the way Jung used it, which was a matter of how much output data is implemented. See it as a law of force in science instead. I would assume Te and Fe is equally more extraverted than Se and Ne, especially since Fe and Te rely on outside information alone to even function, where the latter perceiving pair can be more of an individualistic approach.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

@anorganizedmess I mostly used functions and I acknowledged Fi as not the same as Fe but still. As far as introverted functions go Fi is the most oriented towards people. Again, Te is the most impersonal, it's object focused, it plans etc. If we're going to use this "Ne is introspective" argument than Te fits that better. I'm not understanding why people are special pleading for Ne. Also Ne being idea-oriented doesn't make it more introverted, that's just stupid. Thinking about things that are concrete is just as introspective.
[MENTION=371025]superflous Except it's not. Se and Ne don't rely on outside information, are you serious? What do you mean by how much output data is implemented?


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

@Birbsofafeather Why are you conflating abstraction with introspection? 

No, Se acts in the moment and knows how to get what it wants in a given situation because it notices what's going on around it. So no it's not as thoughtless as people make it seem at all. 

As for what you said about thinking. Ti just seeks to understand things. Te is more goal-oriented and productive, whatever. But that's not what extraversion is.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

@anorganizedmess I mostly used functions and I acknowledged Fi as not the same as Fe but still. As far as introverted functions go Fi is the most oriented towards people. Again, Te is the most impersonal, it's object focused, it plans etc. If we're going to use this "Ne is introspective" argument than Te fits that better. I'm not understanding why people are special pleading for Ne. Also Ne being idea-oriented doesn't make it more introverted, that's just stupid. Thinking about things that are concrete is just as introspective.
@superflous Except it's not. Se and Ne don't rely on outside information, are you serious? What do you mean by how much output data is implemented?


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## star tripper (Sep 1, 2013)

Ne is seen as the most introverted extraverted function because it is the least obviously extraverted function to the naked eye. Se, Te, and Fe have more in common superficially with social extroversion than Ne does.

Fe is considered the most extroverted function on this site, which is why INFJs are regarded as the most extroverted introverts.

Therefore Ne - Fe = most introverted extravert.

And remember, most denotes that they are IN COMPARISON to other extraverts.

It's a meaningless distinction and only true theoretically (and only if you agree with the above assertions).


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## Gilead (Oct 5, 2017)

What do you all mean when you say "more extroverted"? How can you know it is "more"? And do not say superficially so - because that answer is indecent coming from intuititives.

Also extroversion/introversion still used here to mean sociability, external/internal, object/subjective orientation as if those things are interchangeable... yes those are different in each theory but you follow the definition of the theory that you decide to use/deem worthy.

Saying N is inner _processing_ is hardly an argument because all functions are processed internally - you cannot locate Te outside a subject despite Te being focused on objects - besides, feeling is similarly to intuition processing inner _content _because value is often inherent... with T and S focusing on the tangible and verifiable stuff (which none of this is btw).

Ne and Fe are both just as obsessed with objects as the other - both have the makings of a gold digger - but assuming this is the case is rude - assuming the case is this for just one of them is blatantly false. The difference is, Ne looks to objects for potential and Fe looks for value.


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## Reila (Jan 17, 2017)

Aluminum Frost said:


> I'm not, a lot of stuff said about types just makes no sense


Which serves as a nice reminder that MBTI, cognitive functions and similar theories are... well, theories. Not facts, not hard science.


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

if enfps are the most introverted extroverts, it may be cuz they're the most _overtaxed _extroverts when they are extroverting, and therefore burn out more quickly and need more introvert time to recover

some reasons to believe this include:

enfps are extroverted perceivers...perceivers take in more information and need more time to process it all

enfps are intuitive perceivers...intuition is sensation that has been further processed and therefore requires more mental effort (is it a coincidence intuitives have higher iqs?)

enfps are feelers...feeling is closely associated with emotions and may be more exhausting to process than thoughts--eg, entps...feelers also extrovert with people, especially other feelers, by sharing emotions, thus adding to the burden of emotional information enfps take in

enfps are introverted feelers...introverted feeling judgments also draw on basic reasoning, which is a point of weakness for enfps (socionics polr) and may, therefore, require more time to process than even other introverted feelers

for reasons like these, I can see why enfps might need more time alone to recover


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## star tripper (Sep 1, 2013)

Gilead said:


> What do you all mean when you say "more extroverted"? How can you know it is "more"? And do not say superficially so - because that answer is indecent coming from intuititives.


It is a superficial hypothesis created by people on the Internet who believe every legend you can conceive of is intuitive. You cannot possibly expect a deep answer. It's like asking, "Why do people think Jar Jar Binks is a Sith? And don't say the bad directing in The Phantom Menace."


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> enfps are intuitive perceivers...intuition is sensation that has been further processed and therefore requires more mental effort (is it a coincidence intuitives have higher iqs?)
> 
> for reasons like these, I can see why enfps might need more time alone to recover


from dario nardi who has measured the brain activity supposedly associated with each cognitive function:



> Extraverted Intuiting (Ne)
> 
> Ne types:
> 
> ...



a personal anecdote...when I use Ne intensively, I can sometimes feel my head heating up!...Ne is my aux function so it doesn't come as easily to me as it does to enfps (and entps), and that may account for my experience...I should ask my fellow NPs


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

in contrast, this is what nardi observed for extroverted thinking:



> Extraverted Thinking (Te)
> 
> Te types:
> 
> ...


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

I missed the first 4 pages of this thread and way too lazy to read them. 


But like I said many times, Ne is a very _mental_ function despite being extroverted, so it doesn't find the need to engage with the outer world as much as the other extroverted functions. My ENTP and ENFP friends are both video game addicts whom much prefer to lock themselves inside and play for hours on end than going out for a night in town. But yes, they are both _highly_ social. As an introvert, they both accuse me of being an anti-social loner, yet, they both seem unaware as to how they often shut off from the world too. A trait that I blame on Inferior Si, you know, the inability capture how one lives their daily lives and realize that they are quite antisocial too at times. 

Are ENxP the most introverted extroverts? On paper I would say yes, but it's a ''case by case'' thing really.


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> if enfps are the most introverted extroverts, it may be cuz they're the most _overtaxed _extroverts when they are extroverting, and therefore burn out more quickly and need more introvert time to recover
> 
> some reasons to believe this include:
> 
> ...



the big 5 personality model's _openness _dimension has been likened to mbti's extroverted intuition...this is what some research found about the brains of people who measure high on openness:


scientificamerican.com 

*Openness to Experience: The Gates of the Mind*

Luke Smillie
[HR][/HR] People who are “open to experience” literally see the world differently









_Credit: syolacan Getty Images_ 

What does it mean to be “open-minded”? Are some people genuinely more inclusive in their thinking, more expansive in how they process information? Experiments in personality psychology show that open-minded people do indeed process information in different ways and may literally _see the world differently_ from the average person. 

The personality trait that best reflects the lay concept of open-mindedness is called “openness to experience,” or simply “openness.” Open people tend to be intellectually curious, creative and imaginative. They are interested in art and are voracious consumers of music, books and other fruits of culture. They also tend to be politically liberal.

According to personality theorists, openness reflects a greater “breadth, depth, and permeability of consciousness” and propensity to “cognitively explore” both abstract information (ideas and arguments) and sensory information (sights and sounds). In other words, open people engage with the various percepts, patterns and perspectives that clamor for space in our mind—information is like catnip for their brain.

These abstract notions may well seem like academic hand waving, but they are anchored in concrete data from many research studies. For example, consider the superior performance by open people on tests of creativity called divergent thinking tasks. These require individuals to generate multiple, diverse solutions to a simple problem, such as: “How many uses can you think of for a brick?” Less open people typically generate fewer and more obvious answers to this question—building walls, building houses, building other stuff. But for highly open people, the possibilities flood in. A brick can be used as a weapon, a paperweight, a replacement leg for a broken sofa. Or it can be smashed up and mixed with water to make paint. Open people see more possibilities in even the most mundane of objects.

We see something similar in studies of latent inhibition, a process also known as learned irrelevance. Learning what to ignore is critical for effective psychological functioning—it would be simply overwhelming to process the full stream of information available to our senses as we make our way through the world. So we cull through this information for relevant details, screening out everything else. The problem is, the screened-out information might be useful later, but by then we are slow to realize its significance, to _unlearn_ its irrelevance. This process can be modeled in the laboratory by preexposing participants to seemingly unimportant stimuli that later form the basis of a learning task. For the average person, this preexposure stifles subsequent learning—the critical stimulus has been rendered “irrelevant” and fails to penetrate awareness. Not so, however, for those high in openness, who are less susceptible to latent inhibition. This again demonstrates a more inclusive mode of thinking—a “leaky” cognitive system, if you will—that lets in information that others filter out.

These studies show that open people are less susceptible to the psychological “blind spots” that help us pare back the complexity of the world. And research shows that this characterization is more than a metaphor: open people _literally__ see things differently_ in terms of basic visual perception.

Consider inattentional blindness—the screening out of visual information beyond our attentional focus. You have experienced this if you have ever been so preoccupied with one thing that you failed to see something else right in front of your eyes. (Smartphone-jabbing pedestrians dawdling along the bike path, this means you.) In a classic study often dubbed the “Invisible Gorilla” test, researchers showed participants a film clip of several people passing a basketball back and forth and asked them to count the number of passes between players in white and to ignore the players in black. During the film, someone in a gorilla costume wandered in among the players. In full view, this hairy interloper looked into the camera, beat its chest and drifted off again. Amazingly, most participants in this study reported that they did not see anything unusual or surprising during the clip. Highly open people, on the other hand, are less susceptible to inattentional blindness: they tend to see the things that others block out.

My colleagues and I at the University of Melbourne in Australia have explored these ideas further. In one recent study, we examined links between openness and a perpetual phenomenon called binocular rivalry. This occurs when one image is presented to our left eye while a different image is presented to the right eye. Because the brain cannot extract a coherent picture from these incompatible percepts, the two images seem to flip back and forth in our mind’s eye, each image rivaling the other for dominance. But sometimes both images do break through into conscious perception as a scrambled mash-up. In our study, we found that open people perceived this “mixed percept” for longer periods. It is as though the gates of perception are agape, allowing more visual information to flow into consciousness for open people.

We have also examined how these findings extend to a very different kind of experience called mixed emotions—the simultaneous experience of contrasting feeling states (bittersweetness, nervous excitement, and so on). Might open people also be susceptible to such experiences, to have seemingly incompatible _feelings_ break through into conscious experience, analogous to the two percepts in binocular rivalry? Indeed, we found that such individuals do report experiencing mixed emotions more frequently in their lives. This may be another example of the “permeability of consciousness,” in this case giving rise to complex emotional experiences.

What is happening in the brains of open people to produce these distinctive experiences? Here our knowledge is far murkier and less certain, the neuroscience of personality being a fraught and fledgling field. Some evidence implicates dopamine, a neurochemical that—among many other functions—signals the incentive value of information. This process might explain why open people seem to have more sensitive radars for detecting and processing all kinds of concepts, percepts and qualia. Another clue is an association between openness and activity in the “default network,” a neural system that simulates various experiences such as mind wandering, mental time travel and imagining others’ point of view. More research is needed to determine whether these neural processes underpin the flexible and inclusive cognition that characterizes open people.

As personality psychologists delve deeper into openness to experience, we push back the boundaries of knowledge of this fascinating trait. Is it an advantage to be higher on openness, or are there downsides? Can we change our level of openness and, if so, how? Is openness a uniquely human trait? How did it evolve? As the answers to these questions unfold, we better understand what it means to be open-minded and how it shapes our experience of the world.


_Are you a scientist who specializes in neuroscience, cognitive science, or psychology? And have you read a recent peer-reviewed paper that you would like to write about? Please send suggestions to Mind Matters editor __Gareth Cook__. Gareth, a Pulitzer prize-winning journalist, is the series editor of __Best American Infographics__ and can be reached at garethideas AT gmail.com or Twitter @garethideas.
_
Luke Smillie

Luke Smillie is a senior lecturer in psychology at the University of Melbourne in Australia and has published numerous research papers on personality and individual differences. He was awarded his Ph.D. from the University of Queensland in Australia, has held positions at the University of London and is now director of the Personality Processes Lab at Melbourne.


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

Falling Foxes said:


> Spoken like a true ISTP. Introverted feeling and extraverted feeling don't necessarily yearn for the same thing. Feeling does not automatically equal social.
> 
> To be honest I think it is less about how ENFPs are perceived and more about how they internally view themselves. I think I come across as a lot more confident and outgoing than I actually think I am and that's mostly because ENFPs yearn for deep connection thanks to Fi but not a superfluous one. Fe cares a lot more for the average person. So a lot of us don't like social interaction with people other than our close friends. My partner is convinced I'm more ambiverted mostly comparatively 'outgoing' isn't a trait people associate with me, at least once they know me.
> 
> I've been trying to do more work on ennaegram. I think I'm 7 sp, which kind of contradicts itself, I don't relate to the hyper energetic and outgoing levels of the 7 but I do relate to the fears and goals of type 7. I wish there was as much out there for ennaegram as there is for MBTI.


It took me 2.5 years to figure out my enneagram type- I'm very calm and laid back so the loud highly active 7 didn't seem to match - like you I relate to the fears 

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## Khadroma (Feb 4, 2017)

Falling Foxes said:


> Spoken like a true ISTP. Introverted feeling and extraverted feeling don't necessarily yearn for the same thing. Feeling does not automatically equal social.
> 
> To be honest I think it is less about how ENFPs are perceived and more about how they internally view themselves. I think I come across as a lot more confident and outgoing than I actually think I am and that's mostly because ENFPs yearn for deep connection thanks to Fi but not a superfluous one. Fe cares a lot more for the average person. So a lot of us don't like social interaction with people other than our close friends. My partner is convinced I'm more ambiverted mostly comparatively 'outgoing' isn't a trait people associate with me, at least once they know me.
> 
> I've been trying to do more work on ennaegram. I think I'm 7 sp, which kind of contradicts itself, I don't relate to the hyper energetic and outgoing levels of the 7 but I do relate to the fears and goals of type 7. I wish there was as much out there for ennaegram as there is for MBTI.


I would assume this would be heavily influenced by enneagram; an ENFP friend of mine who essentially 'raised' me by helping me develop my Ne as a teenager did not identify with the "most introverted extroverts" thing at all. He prided himself on being gregarious and quirky, and differentiated himself from most of his countrymen (Sweden) whom he implied to be ISxJ. 

However, he identified as the 783 tritype.


My ENTJ best friend is that tritype and frequently makes jokes about how she thinks everyone is an introvert just because she's so "out there".


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## Khadroma (Feb 4, 2017)

Gilead said:


> "Introverted extrovert" purely from typological perspective is meaningless - it cancels out. And the idea that certain extroverted functions are "more extroverted" has absolutely no use for anything.
> 
> The fact that words have different meanings in the theory than in the colloquial sense is not an excuse. Differentiating between (situational) sociability and (habitual) function attitude is not that difficult. If it is, introverted ENFPs might just as well type as INFPs.
> 
> If the meaning is to - by "introverted extrovert" or "extroverted introvert" - explain that one isn't clearly one or the other, the word "ambivert" exists.


Also you essentially just took the words right out of my mouth.


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## ENFPurpleKitti (Mar 20, 2017)

Drecon said:


> The reason for the statement is that Ne-dominants tend to do a lot of their extraverting 'inside their heads'. I have an ENFP friend that spends most of his time on his own in his room. Making music, starting projects... stuff like that.
> 
> The problem is that the definitions for extravert and introvert are different for MBTI than for common speech. In common speech extravert means going to parties and always having other people around. For MBTI it means "leading with an extraverted function".
> This means that an MBTI extravert can be someone who stays at home a lot and is in introvert in the common speech definition.
> ...











if it helps, "introverted" means "oriented inward," and "extroverted" means "oriented outward". the terms do not strictly refer to orientation with people, but with other aspects as well. 



Aluminum Frost said:


> They have ESFP levels of energy


until it all runs out-- faster than the esfp.



> I understand Ne is abstract and not really oriented towards people but rather ideas. But then why can't I say the same about Se? That it's just oriented to the outside world and not necessarily people?


i've often wondered this myself. however my esfp husband can't come close to the amount of introversion i experience. he's only recently starting to understand introversion, and only recently allowing himself to feel comfortable alone.



> all extraverts need alone time to some degree


yep. and ours is to a higher degree than most. my husband can manage a few hours alone. i could go days, even an entire week, on my own and not even blink an eye. but i also require large amounts of time surrounded by other people. overall i require equal-- or at least, nearly equal-- amounts of time with people or alone.



Hunter1611 said:


> I've actually never heard of this so called "ENFPs are regarded as the most introverted extroverts" thing.


it is the most common line i've heard about enfps. *shrug*

all of this being said about which functions are extroverted as compared to which people are more socially-inclined, there still tends to be a high correlation between a person with a lead extroverted function and their energy levels in social scenes, and inversely for introverts. i've heard it stated that enfp and isfj types are the most likely to consider themselves ambiverts, and knowing several of them myself and reading on their self-reports this seems to pan out. an enfp will still lose a lot of energy among a crowd of people more quickly than the other extroverts. and the isfjs i've known and read about are able to "hang in there" just a bit longer in crowds than other introverts. i don't believe these are the only two types, i think entp and infj frequently fall into this category as well. however most people i've known, observed, or read about identify as either introvert or extrovert and behave in accordingly in social settings, but the ones who identify as ambivert definitely fall in the middle, requiring close to equal amounts of social and alone time. 

okay, i think the rest of the comments have summed this up fairly well. ^^

as for the extroverted tj types, i haven't personally known a whole lot, but i've never seen them enjoy being alone so much as they have learned to put up with it as a necessary evil. (same goes for the many esxp people in my/ my husband's family.) one in particular that i've known would frequently interrupt her solitude in order to converse with one or two other people for a bit. while she was studying for a higher college degree, she liked rehearsing what she had learned and even bouncing ideas off others or letting them bounce a few off her, before getting back into studying. she specifically chose a profession that kept her constantly surrounded by people, and turned down a higher position offered to her in that profession that would have mostly kept her in a cubicle.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

@PurpleKitti If you say so, it just doesn't make much sense in theory and I've never seen it to be the case.


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## asomeone (Oct 10, 2017)

I know some very quiet enfps... especially enneagram 9s. I think that many E types can be ambiverts - two of my close friends are ESFj and ESFP and they seem less outgoing than me often. I don't think you can really analyse this in terms of comparing functions - some ENFPs are going to sit far along the E scale and some more in the middle.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Aluminum Frost said:


> @PurpleKitti If you say so, it just doesn't make much sense in theory and I've never seen it to be the case.


Have you considered this less that ENFPs are not ambiverted but more the case that the more introverted ENFPs are invisible to you?


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Falling Foxes said:


> Have you considered this less that ENFPs are not ambiverted but more the case that the more introverted ENFPs are invisible to you?


You say this while at the same time don't apply this rule to any other type. The vast majority of ENFPs I've met were very high-energy people.


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## Notus Asphodelus (Jan 20, 2015)

I can be extroverted too, but it's only because I'm good at faking it.


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## Reila (Jan 17, 2017)

Notus Asphodelus said:


> I can be extroverted too, but it's only because I'm good at faking it.


I can be social when I want/need to, but I will never be extroverted. Not in this life, at least. I don't know about you, though.


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## Mr Castelo (May 28, 2017)

You need to take a chill pill, bro.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Mr Castelovania said:


> You need to take a chill pill, bro.


who?


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Aluminum Frost said:


> You say this while at the same time don't apply this rule to any other type. The vast majority of ENFPs I've met were very high-energy people.


you have to follow these people around to see how long they remain "very high energy"

using an analogy, if you only see manic-depressives in their manic state, you might think these people are bouncing off walls all the time when in fact they bounce back and forth between manic and depressisve states

I'm not saying enfps are manic-depressives, but alternating between extroversion and introversion somewhat resembles manic-depressive states


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Gilead said:


> "Introverted extrovert" purely from typological perspective is meaningless - it cancels out. And the idea that certain extroverted functions are "more extroverted" has absolutely no use for anything.
> 
> The fact that words have different meanings in the theory than in the colloquial sense is not an excuse. Differentiating between (situational) sociability and (habitual) function attitude is not that difficult. If it is, introverted ENFPs might just as well type as INFPs.
> 
> If the meaning is to - by "introverted extrovert" or "extroverted introvert" - explain that one isn't clearly one or the other, the word "ambivert" exists.


"more introverted extrovert" simply means an extrovert who spends less time using his extroverted functions and more time using his introverted functions


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

ae1905 said:


> you have to follow these people around to see how long they remain "very high energy"
> 
> using an analogy, if you only see manic-depressives in their manic state, you might think these people are bouncing off walls all the time when in fact they bounce back and forth between manic and depressisve states
> 
> I'm not saying enfps are manic-depressives, but alternating between extroversion and introversion somewhat resembles manic-depressive states


I have ENFP friends


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Aluminum Frost said:


> I have ENFP friends


do you see your friends every waking hour of every day?

do they all spend all of their time with you so you can observe them?

or do you see them only, or mostly, in their extroverted moments?


my point is your observations are probably heavily _biased_


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

re the connection between sociability and extroversion, this study looked at how much social interaction introverts and extroverts can tolerate and found that even extroverts have their limits and become exhausted after some time...so using extroversion to mean sociability, the hypothesis "enfps are the most introverted extroverts" can be understood to mean, "out of all extroverted types, enfps, on average, can tolerate the least amount of prolonged socializing"

blogs.scientificamerican.com *

Both Introverts and Extraverts Get Exhausted from Too Much Socializing*

Scott Barry Kaufman
[HR][/HR] Deep down, we all find it draining having to talk to too many people.









Source: Flickr 

Having an active social life is one of the strongest predictors of longevity and good health. Human connection is one of the most fundamental and important human drives. But it can also be our most tiring! Quick question: _raise your hand if you ever get tired after talking to too many people._ Did you raise your hand? Congrats: you’re human!

I think we tend to overplay our differences, and underestimate just how similar we all really are deep down in our basic needs, strivings, and frustrations. Our common humanity. Emerging research shows that even though we each show distinct patterns of thoughts, motivations, and behaviors that make us different from each other, we actually _display the whole spectrum of behaviors in our everyday life_. Everybody sometimes gets tired from too many social interactions, sometimes acts like a jerk, sometimes is lazy, etc. Just some of us are consistently more so on a regular basis than others.

In a brand new study, two Finnish researchers looked at one of the most prominent descriptions about introverts: that they need to be alone and recharge after too many social interactions. While this is undoubtedly true, does this really differentiate introverts from extraverts? Incredibly this idea has never actually been tested scientifically until now.

Over the course of 12 days, 48 participants filled out measures of their personality, mood, stress, and levels of fatigue. Five times a day, they were asked to describe their behavior, feelings, and situations during the last hour. They also were asked to describe the extent to which they interacted in person with others in the past hour. In addition to looking at the effects of behaving extraverted, they also looked at the effects of behaving conscientiously (studying, working, and having a goal that they tried to accomplish in the past hour).

They found that the more people were acting extraverted and conscientious, the more they reported being in a positive mood and feeling lower levels of fatigue in the moment, but _after 3 hours _they reported _higher_ levels of fatigue. The level of fatigue depended on the number of people met during the last hour, the intensity of the social interactions, and how much they had a specific goal in mind when they were studying or working. Interestingly, these effects were found for both introverts_ and_ extraverts.

While the findings on conscientiousness are not surprising (hard work is hard work!), this is the first direct evidence suggesting that too much socializing is draining for everyone. Indeed, prior research has shown that in general, when under stress, tired, or living in crowded circumstances, people often choose to be alone if they can. This research also adds to a growing literature suggesting that _in the moment_, acting extraverted has the same consequences on mood for both introverts and extraverts. Taken together, all of this research suggests that for most humans on this planet, having a reasonable amount of social interaction and working hard toward goals makes people feel good, but too much of either tends to make people tired after a few hours.

Nevertheless, there are real differences between introverts and extraverts that shouldn't be ignored. For one, introverts really do prefer solitude and quiet time more, on average, than extraverts. Also, the latest science of introversion suggests that extraverts are more driven to engage in social interactions that particularly increase social status or social attention. Extraversion seems to be fueled by dopamine, particularly through the reward circuits of the brain that cause us to get excited by the possibility of "appetitive rewards" in the environment, such as money, power, sex, and social status.

This study didn't differentiate between the particular nature of the interactions, or the reward value of the interactions, but I predict that there would have been real differences between introverts and extraverts if these more nuanced variables had been assessed. For instance, perhaps introverts get more depleted quicker after having to engage in 'networking'. Or perhaps after too much social intensity, introverts retreat to solitude to recharge their batteries, whereas extraverts might seek out more social interactions with a smaller group of friends. All of these questions are ripe for future research.

Nevertheless, this is a neat little study that shows that deep down, we all find it draining having to talk to too many people, and having to work really, really hard. It's draining for all of us. This is something we can _all_ bond over and discuss at the water cooler. Or not.

© 2016 Scott Barry Kaufman, All Rights Reserved

_Note: It should be noted that this study had a small sample size (48 participants) and consisted mostly of females (41/48). So while this is definitely not the final word on this topic, I hope more researchers will look at ways in which we are united in our personalities, as well as the ways in which we differ._



The views expressed are those of the author(s) and are not necessarily those of Scientific American. 








Scott Barry Kaufman
Scott Barry Kaufman is scientific director of the Imagination Institute and a researcher and lecturer at the Positive Psychology Center at the University of Pennsylvania. He conducts research on the measurement and development of imagination, creativity and play and teaches the popular undergraduate course Introduction to Positive Psychology at Pennsylvania. Kaufman is author of _Ungifted: Intelligence Redefined_ (Basic Books, 2013) and co-author (with Carolyn Gregoire) of _Wired to Create: Unraveling the Mysteries of the Creative Mind_ (Perigee, 2015).


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

ae1905 said:


> do you see your friends every waking hour of every day?
> 
> do they all spend all of their time with you so you can observe them?
> 
> ...


All you're doing is making up bs terms so I can't tackle your arguments. If you believe what you're saying then how did you come to the conclusion that ENFPs are the most introverted? Or that other types aren't the most introverted?


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

@Aluminum Frost

Seriously, it makes no sense. First of all they're feelers so they have more of a need to connect with people whether it's Fe or Fi, the vast majority of them are enneagram 7, arguably the most extraverted enneagram type, most are either So variant or Sx variant doms. They have ESFP levels of energy and talk just as much, their schtik is that they're random and off the wall but somehow they're supposed to be the most introverted extrovert. 

☆Ill take a stab at this - 
Everyone has a need for human connection regardless function ( hence we are interacting and communicating on PerC- this is considered socializing in my agenda) 

My fi is what makes me introverted- for Fi is like a systematic map that analyzes emotions and values . Fi means introspecting ones own emotions , feelings and identity and drawing a final conclusion from it. It's introverted bc it doesn't need any human interaction with anyone beside ITSELF - fi is also value oriented - so I do use it as a judgement tool - fi is introverted bc it is a function that help one understand their own internal strength and values. My fi is so damn strong that most introvert thought that im more introverted than they are bc I can go on for days without social interaction if inspired ( meaning no tv, no internet , no cell phone, traveling alone ) now don't get me wrong- I love people and I enjoy their presence , after all I'm a people person - however I can function with or without them for a long period of time.



7 means fear of boredom - I am energetic in the sense that if excited I can go on with my activities for weeks - as in traveling alone last minutely, writing my new play, spending the entire lunch hour analyzing and critiquing films or cognitive function not living by schedule or routine if possible. Talkative? I find introverts to be very talkative-its not type related. Sure I may talk more than my esfp cousin but I don't talk as much as my Istp partner ( ti when analyzing something or ti-ni loop - he can talk on for hours , hence we talk for 2-6 hours a night for the last 13 years) 
I am highly energetic- I'm an extrovert after all - but no my energy level cannot beat an Se
Dom

I understand Ne is abstract and not really oriented towards people but rather ideas. But then why can't I say the same about Se? That it's just oriented to the outside world and not necessarily people? I understand ENFPs need alone time but this isn't unique to Ne doms, all extraverts need alone time to some degree.



☆Se- have the needs to experience everything with their 5 senses - which involves going out- breaking or changing the environment in some sense and has a stronger need for human relations. Ne- creates ideas and form connection- I find Se and Ne- to be similar in some sense , however Se a bit of a louder function example 
My esfp cousin, some random kid and I were playing with Victorian dolls, I shook the doll and realized there is something in there 
My esfp cousin decided to break the doll to see what's in it - I saw and was no longer curious- my cousin saw the reaction on her friends face and decided to break another doll .
SE dom - Enjoys changing their surrounding and feels energize when performing for a crowd - 


If anything ENTJ or ESTJ should be the most introverted extravert considering they're Te doms and thinking is impersonal. Many look like introverts, are less excitable, can be cold. They display much more introvert traits than any other extravert. If we go by how extraverted a function is it should go Fe>Se>Ne>Te>Fi>Si>Ni>Ti so where does this idea that ENFPs are the most introverted extravert even come from? It fails from a theoretical standpoint and isn't true in real life either.

☆
TE- gain energy through explaining, teaching and conversing about their logic - Te- has the need to organize and plan things relying on facts and external sources and needs of conclusion or finalizing - like how fi judges a conclusion inwardly on what align with their values - Te seeks external feedbacks for their conclusion ( hence making Te a more extroverted function than Ne ) 

Hope that helps 




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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

Aluminum Frost said:


> I have ENFP friends


Interesting- I am married to an istp I highly doubt my analyzation of him applies to all istp 

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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> "more introverted extrovert" simply means an extrovert who spends less time using his extroverted functions and more time using his introverted functions


I think this should sum up with why Ne-doms are the most introverted extrovert , the healthy one indulge in their aux function the unhealthy ones get trapped in their inferior 

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## Gilead (Oct 5, 2017)

ae1905 said:


> "more introverted extrovert" simply means an extrovert who spends less time using his extroverted functions and more time using his introverted functions


So an introvert or ambivert it is - next!


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

I'm talking in general terms here


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Aluminum Frost said:


> All you're doing is making up bs terms so I can't tackle your arguments. If you believe what you're saying then how did you come to the conclusion that ENFPs are the most introverted? Or that other types aren't the most introverted?


"bs terms" like "friends", "waking", and "day"?

I explained earlier why enfps might be the most introverted, including references to a couple of empirical studies...feel free to refer to those if you want to discuss further


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## Khadroma (Feb 4, 2017)

ae1905 said:


> they do, of course...I never said enfps are the most introverted extroverts _solely _cuz of Fi...Fi is just one reason why this might be so
> 
> and, yes, esfps also have Ti polr and might therefore also need more time to process their feelings...but esfps are Se doms rather than Ne doms, sensors rather than intuitives, and are not, as a result, as introverted for the other reasons I believe enfps are more introverted
> 
> ...



No, no, I realize that----of course feeling is a rational function. I clarified that as a judgement function, it is rational and I made it very clear to differentiate emotions with feeling (even if feeling may concern itself with emotions sometimes)----see: my response to the 'empathy' idea (which I found interesting). 

However, I am not asking about the difference between Fi and Ti in that sense---as I have made it abundantly clear based on my post re: Jung and socionics why exactly feeling is rational. I did not suggest feeling is emotions. I'm asking about the interaction between Fi and Ti as you mentioned:
"as I understand it feeling judgments also make use of logic, the difference being it's good or bad rather than true or false that is being evaluated...in socionics, enfps' weakest function is Ti, or logic...this weakness may cause enfps' to need more time to make Fi judgments--ie, to spend more time "introverting""

And I want this part in particular clarified----why would weak Ti, or Ti PoLR in particular cause an ENFP to spend more time 'introverting'?
@Jewl What do you think?

It is obvious that feeling is rational, but concerns itself with different things------but I'm uncertain what exactly you were trying to get at with the quoted above as well as: 

"as I understand it feeling judgments also make use of logic, the difference being it's good or bad rather than true or false that is being evaluated...in socionics, enfps' weakest function is Ti, or logic...this weakness may cause enfps' to need more time to make Fi judgments--ie, to spend more time "introverting""

^ That part.

Reiterating what I said before, again: it is clear that feeling is rational, but it is not clear why a reliance/valuing of feeling (ego block) and the opposition from Ti in the psyche would result in more time 'introverting'.

Try rephrasing the part above?



Because again, you demonstrated what was agreed upon------the similarities (of judging functions in general)-------but not why the "synergy" of said judging functions would result in more time 'introverting'------I am asking for your understanding of Ti PoLR in particular. 



Also, you were clear to differentiate feeling vs emotion in the same way I did, however you also mentioned: 



> empathy...feelers are more empathic so they can't help but experience some of the ups and downs of other people's emotions more intensely, and that can be exhausting, even for feelers



Also, with regards to the parts on sensors----I'm not sure if you saw but I asked a few questions regarding that last night, towards the bottom of my previous post. 





For the sake of clarity: you do not mean sociability, but you mean an external-focus, yes?
As mentioned in your follow-up post: 


> these conclusions are based on use of cognitive functions, not on sociability...so istjs, for example, might not be the most sociable introverts, but they might spend more time using Te (to work and organize their sock drawers) than other introverts use their extroverted functions


So are you referring to a general 'objectivity'?



Also, in your designation of types, you mentioned it is based on the functions----yet, the ESTx, INFx, and ISTx are in different quadra. 



Your follow-up is clearer, as you clarified that you mean something different than what is usually said about ENFPs or ENT types (ie, "they are cognitive extroverts but socially more ambiverts").
However, I would still like to know more about your point re: sensors with the questions I asked in my previous post.





Essentially, I am asking: 
Do you mean a "subjective" flavour (in the way it is used in colloquial English----which can be associated with feeling in general) would lead to more time 'introverting' (in the Jungian sense also---an internal _orientation_) ?

What is the *interaction* between these two forms of the word "subjective"?

It is clear that it is not the same, but do you think that this "subjective" (colloquial English) focus would lead to a more reserved personality? Why or why not?


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## Khadroma (Feb 4, 2017)

ae1905 said:


> estj or estp
> 
> it's relative easier for estjs to use Te and estps to use Se than any other extroverted type their dominant function
> 
> ...



Also some of your posts regarding sensor types throw me off as they seem to be more congruent with MB stereotypes rather than the standard Jungian/socionics stereotypes--------why would an SLI be Dwight Schrute-y? 

@Gilead What do you think of this? This touches on our discussion prior but I don't quite follow the differentiation of sensation v. intuition in this statement in particular: 



> enfps are intuitive perceivers...intuition is sensation that has been further processed and therefore requires more mental effort (is it a coincidence intuitives have higher iqs?)


as well as this statement, when it comes to Ti PoLR in ESFPs and ENFPs: 




> and, yes, esfps also have Ti polr and might therefore also need more time to process their feelings...but esfps are Se doms rather than Ne doms, sensors rather than intuitives, and are not, as a result, as introverted for the other reasons I believe enfps are more introverted





There's just a lot going on here as the posts have touched on MB, Keirseyan temperaments, sociological/psychological 'energy' definitions, socionics, Jung, and others to explain why ENFPs would spend more time "introverting" (unclear as multiple types of introversion in ENFps have been suggested).


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

I saw it like this: 

- Because Ns stay in their heads more than Ss
- Because Fs take more emotional processing time than Ts
- Because Ps are less consistently outwardly active than Js

So ENFPs often end up being less clearly extraverted in behavior (bearing in mind that type is a categorization of cognitive behavior). My ENTP cousin (9w8 soc/sx?) ends up coming off less extraverted than my ENFP cousin (7w6 sp/soc?) though. And I feel pretty ambiverted even though INFPs are usually said to be very clear introverts. I think e-type has a large effect. 

Ultimately all of this is generalizing, though, IMO, and should be taken with a grain of salt.


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Khadroma said:


> No, no, I realize that----of course feeling is a rational function. I clarified that as a judgement function, it is rational and I made it very clear to differentiate emotions with feeling (even if feeling may concern itself with emotions sometimes)----see: my response to the 'empathy' idea (which I found interesting).
> 
> However, I am not asking about the difference between Fi and Ti in that sense---as I have made it abundantly clear based on my post re: Jung and socionics why exactly feeling is rational. I did not suggest feeling is emotions. I'm asking about the interaction between Fi and Ti as you mentioned:
> "as I understand it feeling judgments also make use of logic, the difference being it's good or bad rather than true or false that is being evaluated...in socionics, enfps' weakest function is Ti, or logic...this weakness may cause enfps' to need more time to make Fi judgments--ie, to spend more time "introverting""
> ...


as I explained already, Fi uses the same _forms of reasoning_ Ti does...being weak on Ti, therefore, means being weak on these forms, and Fi weak on Ti will have more difficulty making its feeling judgments than an Fi that is stronger on Ti

for example, I've noticed that infps will usually be better debaters than enfps even though their Te is in the inferior position compared to enfps' tertiary...I think this is partly cuz Ti is stronger in infps than in enfps



> Also, you were clear to differentiate feeling vs emotion in the same way I did, however you also mentioned:
> 
> Also, with regards to the parts on sensors----I'm not sure if you saw but I asked a few questions regarding that last night, towards the bottom of my previous post.
> 
> ...


I'm not using "subjective" in the vernacular sense...I'm using it in the mbti sense


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Khadroma said:


> Also some of your posts regarding sensor types throw me off as they seem to be more congruent with MB stereotypes rather than the standard Jungian/socionics stereotypes--------why would an SLI be Dwight Schrute-y?


sensing and thinking are easier to extrovert than intuition and feeling...therefore, the thinking sensors--istj and istp--are the most extroverted introverts...not necessarily the most _sociable_...in fact, it is precisely cuz istjs can use Te and istps Se _w/o dealing with people_ that they can extrovert for relatively longer periods of time compared to other introverts



> @*Gilead* What do you think of this? This touches on our discussion prior but I don't quite follow the differentiation of sensation v. intuition in this statement in particular:


refer to my posts above about dario nardi's observations of the brain activity of Ne users



> as well as this statement, when it comes to Ti PoLR in ESFPs and ENFPs:
> 
> There's just a lot going on here as the posts have touched on MB, Keirseyan temperaments, sociological/psychological 'energy' definitions, socionics, Jung, and others to explain why ENFPs would spend more time "introverting" (unclear as multiple types of introversion in ENFps have been suggested).


Se is easier to extrovert than Ne...it requires less mental activity and energy


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## Jewl (Feb 28, 2012)

This is an interesting thread. I've kind of been lurking in the shadows, somewhat skimming posts. Sorry if I'm not following everything that has been said. I've always been amused that ENFPs are known as the most "introverted extroverts". But all I think this sheds light on is how there are two ways you can understand Introversion/Extroversion: The popular cultural way where it's about needing alone time to recharge or the Jungian way where the two are regarded as attitudes. I think @Khadroma tries to touch on this a bit. 

ENFPs use Ne+Fi. I think when people say ENFPs are the most "introverted" Extroverts, they're saying they're the most "introverted" in the popular cultural understanding of the term. But not in the Jungian sense. 

Although it's always amused me that people would ever try and type me as an Introvert in any sense. 

As for this: 



> And I want this part in particular clarified----why would weak Ti, or Ti PoLR in particular cause an ENFP to spend more time 'introverting'?


Unfortunately I'm not that familiar with Socionics. I think it's actually the ENFP's Fi that makes them spend more time directing any energy inwards than simply "weak Ti". Whenever I appear "Introverted" it's because I'm weighing and pondering the _significance _of something, the feeling it gives me. *shrugs*


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

PurpleKitti said:


> there seems to be some miscommunications going on in the thread leading to further misunderstandings about the op's question and stance, as well as misunderstandings of answering posts. let's see if we can break things down so we can fully understand what the discussion/ question is and how to answer it. these questions are primarily for @Aluminum Frost to answer, but it might be helpful for others to answer them as well.
> 
> *1. it would be beneficial to clear up the definitions of the terms extrovert, introvert, and ambivert.* what do these terms each mean when applied to socializing? what do they each mean when applied to the functions in non-social situations? what are the connections/ relationships between both sets of definitions?
> 
> ...


1. I think it's fair to define it as how social someone is. Anything else is really stretching the definition to an unreasonable degree in which almost anything can be argued as being extroversion. People are just using these broad definitions cause they really want to defend their position.

2. Ik how they work, I've been in this community since 2012. It would take too long anyways and I see it turning into a semantics argument.

3. Why do I need sources? Can't I just look at it logically? Thinking is the most cold, detached, impersonal, object-focused, yes? Feeling is the exact opposite. Sensing and intuition may or may not have to do with people but I'd say N is a bit more introverted than S because it's more "heady".

4. I already gave reasoning and mbti isn't an exact science so of course it's anecdotal. But in theory the idea doesn't hold water either. Are you asking for personal testimonies from ENFPs and saying I should just take their word for it? If so then wouldn't they being the most introverted extroverts still be anecdotal since they are making assumptions about types from limited experience as we all are? Also IxTx types, especially INTx types are generally regarded as being the most introverted of the introverts. If ENFP is the most introverted introvert than why isn't INFP widely regarded as the most introverted introvert? Even going by the idea that ENFPs are the most introverted cause they're intuitives it doesn't explain why they're regarded as more introverted than the other 3 ENxx types. And regardless of what feeling it is I don't see why F would enable someone to be more introverted than if they were T.

5. 7s basically fear boredom so they have to keep their minds busy at all times, escaping pain through fun activities and being around people. Not sure, I have to think about that.

6. Don't know, but ENFPs and ESFPs seem to be out and about doing things and surrounded by people more than the other extraverted types.

7. May I see?

You seem honest, it's cool.


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## Jeffrei (Aug 23, 2016)

Aluminum Frost said:


> Seriously, it makes no sense. First of all they're feelers so they have more of a need to connect with people whether it's Fe or Fi, the vast majority of them are enneagram 7, arguably the most extraverted enneagram type, most are either So variant or Sx variant doms. They have ESFP levels of energy and talk just as much, their schtik is that they're random and off the wall but somehow they're supposed to be the most introverted extrovert.
> 
> I understand Ne is abstract and not really oriented towards people but rather ideas. But then why can't I say the same about Se? That it's just oriented to the outside world and not necessarily people? I understand ENFPs need alone time but this isn't unique to Ne doms, all extraverts need alone time to some degree.
> 
> If anything ENTJ or ESTJ should be the most introverted extravert considering they're Te doms and thinking is impersonal. Many look like introverts, are less excitable, can be cold. They display much more introvert traits than any other extravert. If we go by how extraverted a function is it should go Fe>Se>Ne>Te>Fi>Si>Ni>Ti so where does this idea that ENFPs are the most introverted extravert even come from? It fails from a theoretical standpoint and isn't true in real life either.


This saying probably just means that ENFPs are the most internal extroverts. Intuition (in general) tends to be more introverted (or internal) by nature. Ne is only Ne because it has a focus on the external, but really it is still kind of an introverted process. Couple that with Fi (which is literally introverted and doesn't have nearly as strong of a focus on others as Fe) and you have someone that spends a lot more time in their heads than the rest of the extroverts.

I think the confusion here is that you might be subconsciously thinking that extrovert = social and introvert = distant. This really isn't the case though. Extroversion merely means that someone has an external focus. The people part is just a stereotype as a result. Introversion essentially means that the subject has an internal focus (hence the stereotype of not being as social). So while thinkers can come across as less social, it by no means indicates that they are more introverted. It just means that they rather deal with objective facts than people's biased emotions.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

The thing with that is I can do that with all extraverted functions if you're going to define terms like extraversion and introversion so loosely. And lets be honest here, introvert or extravert you're focused more on the external. You're always aware of your surroundings, you don't walk into oncoming traffic just because you're thinking about something. Whereas you're not in your head constantly monologing or in deep thought. I also don't see why abstraction keeps getting conflated with introversion and concrete with extraversion. And in theory Fi (though not to the same extent as Fe) should be more concerned with people, whereas T (especially Ti) is object focused rather than people focused. Even if I go with the Ne is more introverted argument I still don't see how people are coming to the conclusion that Fi is more introverted than Ti.


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

Perhaps it was an certain influential circle in the type field that likes to make people ENFP's that really popularized this whole "introverted extravert" thing, to justify making obviously introverted (in the sense of being withdrawn or reserved) people into extraverts to fit that type. At least, that's where I first heard it.

It's true that Ne might seem less stereotypically "extroverted", especially since traditional "extroverted" traits might be associated with the more "active" Se (and thus the ISP's are sometimes called the "extraverted introverts"), but since extraversion is defined as being stimulated by the environment (or, being understimulateable, and thus turning to the environment to gain more stimulation), then they will still be more "expressive" than reserved, and this is what I have seen from ENP's I know of. 

I like it the way the Arno Profile System (the five temperament theory I always talk about) frames I/E in terms of _*approaching*_ others for interaction. So an E, in order to gain more stimulation from the environment, will tend to approach others and _express_ himself more.
There's also "responsiveness", which is about others approaching you, and the criteria by which you respond to it. It traditionally was known as "people vs task focus". This is what's represented in the Interaction Styles as "informing" (SF/NP) and "directing" (ST/NJ). It's also represented by "motive focus" (NF/SP) and "structure focus" (NT/SJ). 

In the APS, high responsives are said to "_respond_ as extraverts", and low responsives "_respond_ as introverts". So it's the ENJ's that "express" as extraverts and "respond" as introverts. (hence, what ai.trans.75 said on p.6). So what I've seen, is ENTJ's who will think they are introverts, because they "get tired of people and need alone time" (I'll bet ENFJ's face that feeling too). The ENJ is the classic "Choleric", who tends to quickly "approach" people, but really for a more "task"-focused goal, and then not really want to deal with them as much any more. They often burn themselves out. The Sanguine is the pure extrovert who relates to people purely for people's sake. So the ENP would fall under that category in the Interaction Styles, and again, what I've seen of them fits.

The Keirseyan groups are also another level of temperament, and some have noted that temperament classically is defined by I/E, so what gives with the Keirsey groups? Think of Cooperative/Prgmatic as the counterpart for I/E in those groups. So an SJ and NF will be more reserved ("express as an introvert") in taking action than an NT and SP. So that's another way an ENFP might seem to be "introverted" (more "passive") in a way. Likewise, "structure" focus will "respond as an introvert" (have a much stricter criteria for accepting interference from others) than motive focus (defined as trying to work with people). So ENTP's can also have that Choleric "tired of people now" attitude as well. (The "introverted extravert" thing is often said for both ENP's).

Also, as alluded to in the Barry Kaufman quote on p.6, people need both other people, and refresh time away from them. I've started to frame both I/E and people/task as levels of "consciousness" of these needs. (Just like the functions of type are about consciousness).


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

Aluminum Frost said:


> = Even if I go with the Ne is more introverted argument I still don't see how people are coming to the conclusion that Fi is more introverted than Ti.


Nobody said that Fi is more introverted than Ti . ENP are regarded as the most introverted extrovert


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Aluminum Frost said:


> And lets be honest here, introvert or extravert you're focused more on the external. You're always aware of your surroundings, you don't walk into oncoming traffic just because you're thinking about something. Whereas you're not in your head constantly monologing or in deep thought.


The biggest issue with this argument is that you need to learn the difference between Se and Ne. What you keep describing is Se. Se is more aware of the physical aspect of the environment surrounding them. Ne gets ideas externally but that doesn't guarantee that it gets it from the physical world. Also a Ne dom could very easily see a shop sign for example and then proceed to go through a monologue (whether internal or external) about said shop sign and all the tangents related to it. Whilst this monologue is happening they aren't focused on the outside world at all, they are focused on the ideas that spawn from it, so yes, a Ne-dom could very easily walk into traffic without paying attention to it.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Falling Foxes said:


> The biggest issue with this argument is that you need to learn the difference between Se and Ne. What you keep describing is Se. Se is more aware of the physical aspect of the environment surrounding them. Ne gets ideas externally but that doesn't guarantee that it gets it from the physical world. Also a Ne dom could very easily see a shop sign for example and then proceed to go through a monologue (whether internal or external) about said shop sign and all the tangents related to it. Whilst this monologue is happening they aren't focused on the outside world at all, they are focused on the ideas that spawn from it, so yes, a Ne-dom could very easily walk into traffic without paying attention to it.


This isn't even a function thing, as an Ne user you don't walk into oncoming traffic without paying attention, that's just ridiculous, you'd be dead by now. Your definitions are too loose and really it makes it pretty impossible to determine who is and isn't an extravert or introvert. People keep using these definitions in this thread but how do they type I/E? Probably by how much someone talks or something along those lines. The Ne thing, I'm still not getting because people seem to be attributing certain things to only Ne, as if Ne is the only E function that thinks about what it's doing. With Fe users it's people, Se it's what's being observed and with Te it's planning and whatnot. It's not just acting without thought. Also what if I'm verbalizing Ji perceptions or Pi observations, does it become an extraverted process all of a sudden? If we're being honest everything comes from the external.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

A few people did and ENFP is widely regarded as the most introverted.


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## Katie Tran (Apr 8, 2017)

ai.tran.75 said:


> Interesting- I am married to an istp I highly doubt my analyzation of him applies to all istp
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk












Thought about replying to this dumbass question along with his dumbass reasonings (thinkers being more introverted cause feelers need more human connection lmao wtf) but then thought eh why waste my time.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Alassea Telrunya said:


> Thought about replying to this dumbass question along with his dumbass reasonings (thinkers being more introverted cause feelers need more human connection lmao wtf) but then thought eh why waste my time.


Good on you for not getting dragged in to this...

It's a tough conversation when the other isn't willing to listen... and yet here I am, even when I decided I had given up on it all.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Falling Foxes said:


> Good on you for not getting dragged in to this...
> 
> It's a tough conversation when the other isn't willing to listen... and yet here I am, even when I decided I had given up on it all.


Oh get over yourself, you haven't budged an inch, nor have you presented any logical arguments so you can get off your high-horse with your "anybody who disagrees with me is close-minded" mindset.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Alassea Telrunya said:


> Thought about replying to this dumbass question along with his dumbass reasonings (thinkers being more introverted cause feelers need more human connection lmao wtf) but then thought eh why waste my time.


So....you're just going to throw a temper-tantrum instead and expect me to see things your way? Wow! How reasonable, you're real intelligent pfft xD


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Aluminum Frost said:


> This isn't even a function thing, as an Ne user you don't walk into oncoming traffic without paying attention, that's just ridiculous, you'd be dead by now.


Okay, whatever, you brought up the analogy, if you want to take it literally then we'll pretend that you didn't say it.



> Your definitions are too loose and really it makes it pretty impossible to determine who is and isn't an extravert or introvert.


*Your definitions are non-existant.* Whenever you talk about Ne you are actually describing Se. 

Also I was not providing a definition of Ne, I was providing a symptom. If you are asking for a definition then how do you want it? Do you want to compared to sensing? To introverted intuition?



> People keep using these definitions in this thread but how do they type I/E? Probably by how much someone talks or something along those lines.


You've been provided with various definitions of I/E in this thread (I wonder if you even read the comments). A lot of people here saying that the fault in your logic is probably because you are not differentiating between the various definitions... I'm pretty sure people have already asked you this already but what is your definition on Introversion and Extraversion? Ignoring specific types.



> The Ne thing, I'm still not getting because people seem to be attributing certain things to only Ne, as if Ne is the only E function that thinks about what it's doing.


What... I don't even... no one said that.



> With Fe users it's people, Se it's what's being observed and with Te it's planning and whatnot. It's not just acting without thought.


No one is disgreeing with you on this... so what's your point? Ne is focused on the abstract, so it is more internal. That doesn't mean that Fe/Se/Te does not involve _thinking_... That's an illogical leap that no one implied. 

Se is focused on the tangible, Ne is the intangible... the intangible does not physically exist in the world so what about Ne implies that it needs a physical outlet or input to function? It could all easily happen in daydreams. I find it easier to look at the 'e' in Ne to not stand for 'extraverted' but instead 'expansive' because that's how you differentiate it with Ni.



> Also what if I'm verbalizing Ji perceptions or Pi observations, does it become an extraverted process all of a sudden?


So what if you are? That makes no difference to the definition of extraversion/introversion. 



> If we're being honest everything comes from the external.


No. It doesn't. You need to consider that functions rarely work in isolation. You need to think beyond the individual functions and realise that they often work in pairs. Being able to talk does not prove introversion/extraversion, does it? Your introverted thinking doesn't work without external observation of the world does it? And that's because you have extraverted sensing.


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## Katie Tran (Apr 8, 2017)

Aluminum Frost said:


> So....you're just going to throw a temper-tantrum instead and expect me to see things your way? Wow! How reasonable, you're real intelligent pfft xD


Honey, within this whole thread, I assure you you're the only one who looks like a whiny brat throwing the tantrum from the get go with your title.

I thank you for your compliment. I know I'm intelligent. Cheers!


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Aluminum Frost said:


> Oh get over yourself, you haven't budged an inch, nor have you presented any logical arguments so you can get off your high-horse with your "anybody who disagrees with me is close-minded" mindset.


I'll budge once I'm confident you even understand what I'm saying, until then you can't convince me because you are not arguing about the same issue. Right now this doesn't feel like a discussion but a lecture. You haven't provided any logical arguments yourself besides 'I know some ENFPs who don't seem introverted' (or something along those lines). That's a reasonable comment but you didn't expand on why you thought that was or why you thought ENFPs would see themselves as introverts when externally you don't view them that way and when I tried to get you to expand on it you just shut my decision down instead.

Every other comment has mostly been 'your definitions are too loose' or telling others that they are wrong with little explanation. Please, expand on these reasonings or provide your own perspective instead of expecting others to do that for you.

You are contradicting yourself... or not explaining yourself efficiently.



Aluminum Frost said:


> 1. I think it's fair to define it as how social someone is. Anything else is really stretching the definition to an unreasonable degree in which almost anything can be argued as being extroversion. People are just using these broad definitions cause they really want to defend their position.





Aluminum Frost said:


> The thing with that is I can do that with all extraverted functions if you're going to define terms like extraversion and introversion so loosely.





Aluminum Frost said:


> People keep using these definitions in this thread but how do they type I/E? Probably by how much someone talks or something along those lines.


So... are people agreeing to your terms of E/I? Are people giving you too complicated a definition for E/I? Or are people simplifying E/I?

Regardless of what your definitions of E/I are, at the heart of the conversation we get back to the question of "Why are ENFPs regarded most introverted extraverts?" Because the people making those claims are people who are recognising different definitions of extraversion or introversion, whether you agree with that or not, this answers your question. The people who believe that ENFPs are the most introverted extraverts have different definitions of extraversion based on social extraversion and function extraversion. Disagreeing with the idea that there is a difference does not change the answer to your original question... so... what is your real goal here? It's already been explained to you why this is a trope. Arguing against it whilst dismissing the idea of the split between these definitions just means that you are arguing on a different page entirely.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

"Okay, whatever, you brought up the analogy, if you want to take it literally then we'll pretend that you didn't say it."

I wasn't describing Se, you're just not understanding. What I'm saying is everyone is constantly attuned to what's going on outside, nobody is constantly in their head though. So if we define E/I by how you're defining it then everybody is more of an extravert.

"Your definitions are non-existant. Whenever you talk about Ne you are actually describing Se. 

Also I was not providing a definition of Ne, I was providing a symptom. If you are asking for a definition then how do you want it? Do you want to compared to sensing? To introverted intuition"

I wasn't talking about Ne, I was illustrating the similarities between extraverted functions.

"You've been provided with various definitions of I/E in this thread (I wonder if you even read the comments). A lot of people here saying that the fault in your logic is probably because you are not differentiating between the various definitions... I'm pretty sure people have already asked you this already but what is your definition on Introversion and Extraversion? Ignoring specific types."

I already told you, if you would just go back a few pages and see my response to PurpleKitti and stop acting like such a know-it-all when you in fact know nothing at all. Still if the way you type I/E is different than what you're saying in this thread then you're just being dishonest and using any argument you can to get your point across, which is what I was getting at. Idk how you type but it seems most people type I/E by how much a person talks.

"What... I don't even... no one said that."

Yes...yes...yes! Don't lie, you're saying Ne makes ENxPs the most introverted because Ne is more in your head. But I can come up with ways that all extraverted functions are more in your head, so it's just a nonsensical argument.

"No one is disgreeing with you on this... so what's your point? Ne is focused on the abstract, so it is more internal. That doesn't mean that Fe/Se/Te does not involve thinking... That's an illogical leap that no one implied. 

Se is focused on the tangible, Ne is the intangible... the intangible does not physically exist in the world so what about Ne implies that it needs a physical outlet or input to function? It could all easily happen in daydreams. I find it easier to look at the 'e' in Ne to not stand for 'extraverted' but instead 'expansive' because that's how you differentiate it with Ni."

Again you're conflating concrete with extraverted and abstract with introverted. That's flawed reasoning. Ne takes from the external, possibilities can't exist without the external, it's an extraverted function by definition. If I'm thinking about concrete things as opposed to abstract things I'm not introverting less, that doesn't make any sense >.>

"So what if you are? That makes no difference to the definition of extraversion/introversion. "

If it does then everybody is equally extraverted and introverted, it's a useless means of defining the two terms.

"No. It doesn't. You need to consider that functions rarely work in isolation. You need to think beyond the individual functions and realise that they often work in pairs. Being able to talk does not prove introversion/extraversion, does it? Your introverted thinking doesn't work without external observation of the world does it? And that's because you have extraverted sensing."

Yes it does, without sense-perception you know nothing. You have no intuition, nothing that would make you think and nothing that would make you feel. A blind person can't simply intuit what purple is. Functions rarely working in isolation proves my point.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

@Alassea Telrunya I never lost my cool though, whereas you're on the verge of crying (assuming you haven't started already) Good God she can't so much as grasp sarcasm HAHAHAHA! Here hun, have a read, it might get through to you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect


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## Katie Tran (Apr 8, 2017)

.


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## Katie Tran (Apr 8, 2017)

Aluminum Frost said:


> @Alassea Telrunya I never lost my cool though, whereas you're on the verge of crying (assuming you haven't started already) Good God she can't so much as grasp sarcasm HAHAHAHA! Here hun, have a read, it might get through to you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect


My bad; You were just so bad at sarcasm but thanks for going through the process of explaining yourself. 

"I never lost my cool though, whereas you're on the verge of crying" => Sounds exactly like a guy with a small dick who clearly lost his cool.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

@Falling Foxes I fail to see how I'm contradicting myself. I've defined my terms and I actually did logically explain why I think ExTJs would be the most introverted extraverts and why ENFPs wouldn't be, I went into detail on the functions and everything, it's not my fault you don't pay attention. I already had to tell you that I defined my terms and to go look for them because you said that I never defined them. Even if we go by your definitions I still explained why that fails to show that ENFPs are the most introverted extraverts. If you need to read over what I said multiple times in order to grasp it then that's okay! Take as much time as you need.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

@Alassea Telrunya

"My bad; You were just so bad at sarcasm but thanks for going through the process of explaining yourself. "

So basically "ik you are but what am I?" Not only is she fun at parties but she can banter with the best of em'.

"Sounds exactly like a guy with a small dick who clearly lost his cool."

I just think you're thirsty, thanks but I'm taken.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Okay, you are misunderstanding absolutely everything I just said.

If we can just get past the roadblock of the definition of introversion/extraversion and internal/external and what not and I'll just assume you understand this then the _reason_ why ENFPs are regarded as the most introverted is as follows:

- They can very easily spend long times alone, daydreaming and not interacting with anyone and this is not an unhealthy way of acting.(this does not mean that they don't prefer social interaction)
- ENFPs often have to do this to assess their feelings from time to time due to Fi
- ENFPs often struggle with small-talk because Ne-Fi means they normally prefer in depth discussions about their passions or beliefs or something abstract and so most ENFPs often think "I must be introverted" because they don't enjoy talking to new people/acquiantances for this reason.
- Because of the above it's also very much possible that they only have a small group of people who they would consider friends (this does not mean that from an outsider's perspective that they don't look social) which will make them feel more introverted
- Introverted feeling often makes ENFPs less willing to share their feelings. (It's common that if you have an ENFP talking about something that gives them only positive emotions then they will share with great depth but most people are unaware of how much they really hold back)


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## Katie Tran (Apr 8, 2017)

Aluminum Frost said:


> @Alassea Telrunya
> 
> "My bad; You were just so bad at sarcasm but thanks for going through the process of explaining yourself. "
> 
> ...


Unfortunately my mediocre standards are too high for you.

If you're truly 'taken,' you should thank all good things in the universe that miracles really do happen.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Aluminum Frost said:


> @Alassea Telrunya I never lost my cool though, whereas you're on the verge of crying (assuming you haven't started already) Good God she can't so much as grasp sarcasm HAHAHAHA! Here hun, have a read, it might get through to you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect


I was clinging on to a little respect left until you had to become an even more obvious childish troll. I mean, come on, you could at least work on better comebacks than this. How old are you? Oh, wait, generation Z? Explains a lot. Okay, I've done all I can. I have no patience for this immaturity.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Alassea Telrunya said:


> Unfortunately my mediocre standards are too high for you.
> 
> If you're truly 'taken,' you should thank all good things in the universe that miracles really do happen.


As if you're in any position to have standards.

Well if you're the sperm that won then that's proof enough for me.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Falling Foxes said:


> I was clinging on to a little respect left until you had to become an even more obvious childish troll. I mean, come on, you could at least work on better comebacks than this. How old are you? Oh, wait, generation Z? Explains a lot. Okay, I've done all I can. I have no patience for this immaturity.


 @Falling Foxes

Generation Y, regardless you're very bigoted and age doesn't determine whether or not someone is right, that's an ad hominem argument. You'd realize this if you had a triple digit iq. Me? This is my fault? I was civil up until you guys started acting like assholes, even now I'm calm while the two of you are being obnoxious and getting bent out of shape over a difference of opinion. But if you want to be a coward and cut out I wont stop you. But I will say you have some growing up to do.

1. My ESTP sister can do this too, ik plenty of non-Ne dom extraverts who can. Just as I as an introvert can talk to people all day. But if this doesn't drain you then you're an introvert, not an extravert.

2. Cool, I have to assess my thoughts (Ti)

3. Except most ENFPs don't have this problem and not all extraverts excel at small-talk.

4. And....? Having one friend or 12 doesn't technically mean you're more introverted.

5. And I can't say the same about every other introverted function because....?


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## Katie Tran (Apr 8, 2017)

Aluminum Frost said:


> As if you're in any position to have standards.
> 
> Well if you're the sperm that won then that's proof enough for me.


My position is much more impressive than yours at least not that that's hard to accomplish. 

Aww, did you just imply I was a miracle child? Didn't think you would take a liking to me so fast, but I'm not interested. Thanks.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

@Alassea Telrunya

Please, they wont even let you in the club.

Well you're certainly "special".


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## Katie Tran (Apr 8, 2017)

Aluminum Frost said:


> @Alassea Telrunya
> 
> Please, they wont even let you in the club.
> 
> Well you're certainly "special".


"Please, they wont even let you in the club." => I am assuming you're so enthralled by me, you've taken the time to dig up info about my life? Stalking is not attractive you know.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Alassea Telrunya said:


> "Please, they wont even let you in the club." => I am assuming you're so enthralled by me, you've taken the time to dig up info about my life? Stalking is not attractive you know.


It was an educated guess but I guess I was right, what life?


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## Katie Tran (Apr 8, 2017)

Aluminum Frost said:


> It was an educated guess but I guess I was right, what life?


A life more fulfilling than yours apparently from what evidence everyone can see.


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## INTJ_Lover (Oct 24, 2017)

I'm an asocial extrovert so in my case its true. I dislike most people have few NTs in my environment so maybe its the ones like me who skew the polls.


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## Blue Soul (Mar 14, 2015)

ENFPs are oddballs of society who live in their imagination and also pride themselves on their individuality. This leads them on the path of ambiversion, hence becoming a more introverted extrovert.

Not to say this couldn't be true of any other extroverted type really; all types have need of alone time, you always have to look at individual cases. But in comparison, say an ESTJ would be more likely to be better adapted in a world teeming with SJs. My point is that an ENFP who grows up having to constantly question themselves might develop a more lonely lifestyle while still having that love for people.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Everyone prides themselves on their individuality and if we're being honest ENFPs don't have any trouble fitting in, like at all. Most of them are closer to normie (assuming they aren't already normies) than weirdos.


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## Jewl (Feb 28, 2012)

rpmcmurphy47 said:


> Look, ENFPs are gods among a world of foolish, boring imbeciles. Every ENFP knows this and it takes so much energy to hide in simple form and deal with the everyday mundanity of dealing with this fact. Sometimes you'll get hints at our exceptionality, but then we reel ourselves back in because it would overwhelm the general public.


I like this post a lot. 

Is it just me or is the ENFP stereotype something akin to "manic pixie dream girl"?


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

rpmcmurphy47 said:


> Look, ENFPs are gods among a world of foolish, boring imbeciles. Every ENFP knows this and it takes so much energy to hide in simple form and deal with the everyday mundanity of dealing with this fact. Sometimes you'll get hints at our exceptionality, but then we reel ourselves back in because it would overwhelm the general public.


Take a shower you, getting high off of your own body odor


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## Monadnock (May 27, 2017)

I have no idea if they're really "the most introverted extroverts" or not, but if they are it's probably a perception created by having Dominant Ne making them seem like they're off in they're head, combined with the Auxilliary Fi, and its "still waters run deep" effect, contrasted with the more socially conforming Fe of the ENTP.


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## Katie Tran (Apr 8, 2017)

Aluminum Frost said:


> More playful than anything else. You came out here guns a blazin calling everything I say nonsense and whatnot.


And what makes you think I wasn't being playful? 
You obviously have not seen my default tone with this whole site and I am always up for a good banter.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Alassea Telrunya said:


> And what makes you think I wasn't being playful?
> You obviously have not seen my default tone with this whole site and I am always up for a good banter.


*hug* there there.


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## Katie Tran (Apr 8, 2017)

Aluminum Frost said:


> *hug* there there.


*smacks*
I love you too <3


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Aww


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## Katie Tran (Apr 8, 2017)

Jokes aside, I'm going to lay out my own theories/thoughts regarding the main thread question.

In my experience, there are no more extraverted or more introverted version, functions, types, etc of anything anymore than there are different individuals. 
From the basics, it's already difficult to tell, let's say an INTJ and ENTJ apart and of course on a shallow level, people are going to say INTJs are more 'introverted' duh. 
That's not it.

I've met ENTJs who are more quiet than INTJs and INTJs who are pretty loud and charismatic. It's all about paying attention to which dominant function they use as the dominant function to set types apart (not I vs. E,) but I'm not going to get more into this unless someone's interested.

Now, it's true. MBTI books and theories often say ENTPs and ENFPs are the most 'introverted of the extraverts' and the reason why is of the Ne function.
We're stereotypically more introverted than other extraverts because of the Ne function's stereotypes. Keyword is...Stereotype lol.

Think about it. In media, Ne is often portrayed as characters like the Mad Hatter, Willy Wonka, Anne of Green Gables, etc. It's portrayed as a bizarre function that 'normal' people can't seem to comprehend and naturally, normal people refers to the higher populated types.
And surprise, ENFP is not a rare type at all. It's highly common among females. 

Like you mentioned, you met ENFPs who are 'common' and fit right in. Put us with the right people who get us be it any function or type, it's hard for us to shut up and if you met those ENFPs, obviously you would deem this so because this was your experience.

I've also met more quiet and stoic ENFPs who are nothing like those high strung ENFPs. I used to be one of those and there was a time I thought I was INFP/INTJ/INTP/etc for a reason. I thought there was no way I could be an extravert but then I learned Ne is my dominant usage.
Put me with the right people, I don't shut up.

But like every single type out there, I get drained and I need alone time for myself. 

My ESFP cousin is the same. She's out there but she also needs a lot of alone time to reflect or just to spend it alone for her own leisure.
The reason why she's not deemed as more introverted than other extraverts is once again, stereotypes and this time, for the Se function. Se has the image of someone who concentrates on the here and now. They concentrate on the physical world and so they don't have time for la la land Ne to be classified as stereotypically introverted.

It's all about theories and media's definition of an 'introvert.'

So in conclusion, there are no 'most introverted of extraverts' for any time. There are only stereotypically most introverted of extraverts based on a shallow view of the term introvert and shallow definition of Ne/Se/etc functions.

But most of all, individual people play the biggest part. 
Hope my midnight tangent made sense. Peace!


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## tarmonk (Nov 21, 2017)

Aluminum Frost said:


> Seriously, it makes no sense. First of all they're feelers so they have more of a need to connect with people whether it's Fe or Fi


According to my current understanding of personality types (I'm still quite new to this area), it's mostly so because Ne is not necessarily requiring people around to function and Fi also is actually not a communication function (it's more like judging function). 

Based on myself as ENFP I could say we're the most extroverted people around other people when we find discussion or situation inspirational. And we can be most introvert when we don't see any inspiration in the situation (ie people are only talking about mundane everyday stuff at their hands and I'm not interested in that). It's more like the motivation behind what's making us very talkative is totally different from what makes high Fe users talkative


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## OliveBranch (Aug 30, 2017)

I don't know, I dislike the trend of using "Fe" as the stereotypical extroverted function, when all Ne, Se, and Te are equally extroverted. They too can be in the realm of social situations as well.


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## Sky_Nova_20 (Sep 10, 2017)

I'm not sure if they come off as more introverted/extroverted than most people think. It's pretty debatable, if you ask me. What's strange is that I know some people on the Internet say that ENFP's are the most introverted of the E's, while ESFP's are the most extroverted of the E's, which is kinda weird, because both of these types have Pe/Pi as their dom/inf and Fi-Te as their auxiliary/tertiary. I think most people say this about ENFP's is because of their dominant function, Ne, as it doesn't really involve people at all. However, I think every extroverted function has their own extroverted qualities and they can still maintain extroverted in every situation, regardless on how they're actually valued.

Because of these types of debates, I myself have been questioning more about this.


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