# Temperaments = Enneagram?



## darude11 (Jul 6, 2011)

Listen, I know that it might sound unbelieveable, but... here is the proof (actually, only root of proof): The Enneagram Blogspot: Scientific Proof for the Enneagram

Okay, now, we can label the 4 Temperaments with the extremes of chemicals in the body:
Sanguine - High Serotonin - Too happy with life of theirs, calm
Melancholic - Low Serotonin - Too sad because of their life, moody
Choleric - High Norepinepherin - Too angry/nervous/I don't know, but it makes sense
Phlegmatic - Low Norepinepherin - Too calm, "Thinks when he must"

What do you think about it? The "Temperament crossbreeds" or I don't know how to call them, are those with both chemicals neutral (3) or with neither of them neutral (6, 7, 8, 9). If one of them is neutral (1, 2, 4, 5), they can show up as mostly that one, which have produced more that certain chemical (I know, badly formulated). So, if I would list it:
1 - Phlegmatic
2 - Sanguine
3 - Totaly phlegmatic?? (both chemicals neutraly produced)
4 - Melancholic
5 - Choleric
6 - Melancholic-Choleric*
7 - Sanguine-Choleric*
8 - Melancholic-Phlegmatic
9 - Sanguine-Phlegmatic*

* - Which is more dominant depends on chemicals (if Serotonine is more under average, or Norepinepherin is more above average, assuming "average" as neutral level)

If I would make it in some sort of table (sorry for bad ASCII), then it would look like this:

Sanguine
9|2|7
1|3|5 - Phlegmatic - Choleric
8|4|6
Melancholic
/It didn't shown the table as it has to be, so I edited it/

Do you recognize formations of those numbers (in rows, the order of them is not important)? Yes! Those are the formations about Harmonizing groups (or IDK how it is named).
How about columns? Yes! Triads of head, heart and body!
Coincidence? I think not.
What do you think?

//EDIT 2
Yeah, and one more thing: I am not so great at Enneagram, so it may be all wrong. It was only the outcome from my thinking processes, so you should accept it only as the Theory, nothing more. Even I am after finishing it looking still at Noreperiphine and thinking about what if it is reversed.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

o.o hmm not sure I'm 6w7 INFP melancholic - sanguinic. My serotonin levels have been low in the past years but they are returning to normal. I have changed much of my thinking habits, sleep properly, get enough sunshine,eat properly and thinking of exercising more too. 

Damn type 6 habits die hard, but they die none the less.


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## PixieSaysHi (Oct 9, 2010)

What about dopamine? That's a biggie.


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## aestrivex (Mar 7, 2011)

darude11 said:


> Listen, I know that it might sound unbelieveable, but... here is the proof (actually, only root of proof): The Enneagram Blogspot: Scientific Proof for the Enneagram


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## MrShatter (Sep 28, 2010)

I think you got melancholic chloric and melancholic phlegmatic mixed up, that's just first glance though, I'll read it now. There is a chemically balanced brain test in the Test resources thread that you might like.


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## LuminousDirge (Oct 19, 2012)

No offense, but although its cool that I am seeing correlation thread with the 4 humors like this, I think a One would be choleric melancholic, Two could be a melancholic because I read that a catholic woman whose name I think is Saint Angus or Mary maybe is a Two but also a melancholic. The 3 and 8 I think would be more extroverted and 5 would maybe be melcholic or phlegmatic maybe but since personality is unique and full of exceptions and contradictions, anything is possible.


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## tkdyo (Jun 17, 2013)

This is a pretty cool idea, and I think they match up very well. The only one I have a really big problem with is I think you got the 5 and 8 mixed up, I dont think meloncholy is often associated with 8s, if anything Id think they would be the pure choleric ones from their aggressive outward behavior and 5s would be be more prone to melancholy and thinking a lot/extreme calm as the "intellectuals".


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

> *1 - Phlegmatic*
> 2 - Sanguine
> 3 - Totaly phlegmatic?? (both chemicals neutraly produced)
> 4 - Melancholic
> ...


these pop out immediately to me as off the mark

if I had to draw a loose correlation, I'd say

1: melancholy/choleric
2: sanguine
3: choleric/sanguine (3w2) or choleric/melancholy (3w4)
4: melancholy
5: phlegmatic
6: anything
7: sanguine/choleric
8: choleric
9: phlegmatic/sanguine


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> these pop out immediately to me as off the mark
> 
> if I had to draw a loose correlation, I'd say
> 
> ...


Some 1w9, especially So/Sp, are surprisingly phlegmatic and stoic, and neither melancholic nor choleric. Pretty even-keel and work-focused. I might even call sixes more choleric.


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## ToplessOrange (Jun 3, 2013)

sanguine​

9​2​7​phlegmatic___ ​1​3​5​___melancholic​8​4​6​
choleric​
Just thought this would be easier to read. Anyways, to contribute, I don't think 5s are all too nervous or neurotic. I'd say we're pretty calm. That could go with the Dopamine aspect, being detached. But that seems entirely neglected.


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## Tater Tot (May 28, 2012)

It would pretty much be perfect if there were only 3 temperaments. imo the Melancholic temperament screws it all up. Without it, it could basically be synonymous with the Harmonic Triads.

2, 7, 9 - Positive Outlook - Sanguine
1, 3, 5 - Competence - Phlegmatic
4, 6, 8 - Reactive - Choleric

imo it makes perfect sense.


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## ToplessOrange (Jun 3, 2013)

TheOminousMuffin said:


> sanguine​
> 
> 9​2​7​phlegmatic___ ​1​3​5​___melancholic​8​4​6​
> choleric​
> Just thought this would be easier to read. Anyways, to contribute, I don't think 5s are all too nervous or neurotic. I'd say we're pretty calm. That could go with the Dopamine aspect, being detached. But that seems entirely neglected.


Let's add on the dopamine aspect as well, and remove the temperaments (even though that's why you made this in the first place). See where that gets us, maybe develop on this theory/proof.
__________serotonin__[SUP]dopamine[/SUP]
____________assertive​ positive outlook​ 

000
000
900
​000
020
000​007
000
000​
norepinephrine___gut​000
010
000
​003
000
000​000
000
500​head_____________​
______withdrawn008
000
000
​000
000
400​000
060
000​

reactive
​Now, something interesting worth noting would be the fact that 8, 3, and 7 all are assertive and are directly diagonal of each other. The means that 8 is the stressless, reactive counterpart of 7, with 3 being the balance between them. Also, all 3 Positive Outlook types all have different aspects from each other in all other areas.

This creates a couple of interesting correlations, but still leaves a lot of gaps/zeroes. We have 3 aspects with 3 capabilities in each. That's 3[SUP]3[/SUP], which is 27 types. I'll talk more on the implications later. Be sure to speculate.


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## ToplessOrange (Jun 3, 2013)

TheOminousMuffin said:


> __________serotonin__[SUP]dopamine[/SUP]
> ____________assertive​ positive outlook​
> 
> 000
> ...


​ 
Note the sequence from every side of the prism. I've labeled each side so as to make it easier to understand what I'm referring to.

From the front, side, and top, we have, respectively:
9|2|7
1|3|5
8|4|6
7|2|9
3|1|5
8|6|4
8|3|7
1|2|6
9|4|5

So, I'm sure what you're asking. Why the lack of zeroes? This implies that having a certain amount of two of the chemicals makes it determined how much of another you get. Are zeroes considered imbalances? I wonder what @_darude11_ thinks.


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## darude11 (Jul 6, 2011)

TheOminousMuffin said:


> ​
> Note the sequence from every side of the prism. I've labeled each side so as to make it easier to understand what I'm referring to.
> 
> From the front, side, and top, we have, respectively:
> ...


Well, my opinion on this (and this idea I am going to show you was made 9-12 months ago) is, that all zeroes are almost all of tritypes (18 out of 72).
To show you what I mean, I'll need to get copy of previously mentioned (amazingly done) 3D matrix of types.



TheOminousMuffin said:


> Let's add on the dopamine aspect as well, and remove the temperaments (even though that's why you made this in the first place). See where that gets us, maybe develop on this theory/proof.
> __________serotonin__[SUP]dopamine[/SUP]
> ____________assertive​ positive outlook​
> 
> ...


I modified it a bit. What has changed is that I replaced Norepinepherine with something new, and also that I rewrote all zeroes with different letters, so that anybody will be able to read it (and I won't have to explain it in complicated ways). How to determine tritype? Simply find out chemicals, which most of types in the tritype have. Here are all letters written out including the different triads, which are assigned to them (don't pay attention to order, I'll get to that after this): [S - Serotonin, D - Dopamine, M - Motivation, v - low, > - average, ^ - high]
A - 2-7-8
B - 3-7-9
C - 1-2-7
D - 2-6-9
E - 2-5-9
F - 4-7-9
G - 3-5-8
H - 1-3-7
I - 1-2-5
J - 1-3-6
K - 1-4-5
L - 3-5-9
M - 4-7-8
N - 3-6-8
O - 2-6-8
P - 1-4-6
Q - 4-5-8
R - 4-6-9

So, to sort out the things with order of types in tritype... I don't have any definitive answer. BUT there is one answer, which I prefer over all other answers, and that is, that people are used to modifying their chemicals to solve different kinds of problems/conflicts. 

You can notice here, that I replaced Norepinepherine with one more "chemical", or trichotomy, to be correct here. Thing is, that each Enneagram type has got also with these 3 chemicals/triads one more, for which I haven't unfortunately found any correlating chemical yet. M stands for Motivation, and there are these three types: Comfort (fine with stable and good things), Ideal (most of time nervous, because 'things are not as they should be'), and Power (control over others in some way). Just to make sure - the explanations I gave were oversimplified. 

If you'll look closer, you'll also notice, that there are certain tritypes, which I left out. Here is list of those (the order of them isn't important there):
1-2-6
1-3-5
1-4-7
2-5-8
2-7-9
3-6-9
3-7-8
4-5-9
4-6-8

And if you're one of those, which paid attention whole time on this thread, you'll notice that these tritypes look... familiar. I can hear already some of you shouting from back of room "Those are triads, which have certain chemical in common!", and you, gentlemen and ladies, are right! These are not included in original model mainly because of their uncertainity. I'll give you an example:
Tritype 4-5-9 consists of three types: 4 (S low, N average, D low, M ideal), 5 (S average, N high, D low, M power), and 9 (S high, N low, D comfort)
As you can see, comparing all other chemicals/triads/trichotomies is here useless - all of them are different in each. And that applies to all tritypes, in which all of types have one chemical/triad/trichotomy in common. All other will be either all different from each other, or all same (thus making one of 9 basic types). It's one of strange and amazing properties of Enneagram.

Now to finish this off with some calculations: We have 4 different triads of types. That would mean, that there are 3^4 = 81 types. 9 of those are completly basic types, which don't have tritypes, or have such, that they can't be determined exactly. Another 9 are triads themselves, for which any other triads can't be determined.
So what do I want to tell with this? Are there only 63 types? Or maybe there are 72, if you include also idea, that some of people can actually be one of basic types only?
My last thought is, that I... don't know for sure. Maybe yes, and maybe not. But next time when you'll meet somebody, who will claim that he/she is 7 despite their low serotonin, or 8, even though they don't have really high dopamine, consider their whole tritype - maybe the 7 is part of 7-4-6 triad, and 8 might be part of 8-4-5 triad. Thing is that each of us is unique - thus we are all the same 

I am thankfull for your attention!


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## heavydirtysoul (Jan 13, 2012)

Wondering if there's correlation between 4 Temperaments and Instinctual Subtypes?


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## ToplessOrange (Jun 3, 2013)

reckless summer nights said:


> Wondering if there's correlation between 4 Temperaments and Instinctual Subtypes?


Well, the first step to this, in case you're still interested in your query from forever ago (time moves slowly for me), would be to organize the subtypes for the hypothesis.


Sexual/Social/SelfSocial/Self/SexualSelf/Sexual/SexualSexual/Self/SocialSocial/Sexual/SelfSelf/Social/Sexual

So, if you're planning on making a theory on that, here's where you'd start. Arrange the subtypes to some kinda scale. Maybe the further to the left you are, the more intense? Maybe that has something to do with Temperaments? The further up you are, the more reserved? Experiment with what you know.


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## GranChi (Jun 16, 2013)

The user and personality type internet writer Eric B has a system for correlating Enneagram with the temperaments that I think works pretty well, so I'm pretty much taking this from him, but I changed it slightly, partly so it fits better with the original four temperaments instead of the five he uses. (If you see this, thanks Eric!) I think it goes best like this:

1 - Melancholic-Choleric
2 - Sanguine-Phlegmatic
3 - Choleric-Sanguine
4 - Phlegmatic-Melancholic
5 - Melancholic
6 - Anything/"central temperament" (Phlegmatic-Choleric?)
7 - Sanguine
8 - Choleric
9 - Phlegmatic

In a visual layout, that would be:

 Sanguine Choleric
7 3 8
2 6 1
9 4 5
Phlegmatic Melancholic

EDIT: It won't let me arrange that the way I wanted to, with the temperament names at the corners of the square, but you get the idea.

It works for me - I'm a 4 and I think I'm phlegmatic-melancholic.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

reckless summer nights said:


> Wondering if there's correlation between 4 Temperaments and Instinctual Subtypes?


I'm not sure. Fours and fives' descriptions are attuned to the Sp variant. There's an against the grain aspect with So and Sx fours and fives. Are you wondering if there might be more, say, Sp fours and fives because fours and fives are withdrawn?


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## ToplessOrange (Jun 3, 2013)

GranChi said:


> The user and personality type internet writer Eric B has a system for correlating Enneagram with the temperaments that I think works pretty well, so I'm pretty much taking this from him, but I changed it slightly, partly so it fits better with the original four temperaments instead of the five he uses. (If you see this, thanks Eric!) I think it goes best like this:
> 
> 1 - Melancholic-Choleric
> 2 - Sanguine-Phlegmatic
> ...


 @Eric B

Hopefully, that works.


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

I don't know what's the point of eliminating Supine, but then not having anything to fit 6.

Otherwise, that list would match what I've suggested:








The first four are blends that actually lie inbetween pure temperaments, so that 1 would be between Melancholy and Choleric, and if you substitute Phlegmatic for Supine, then 2, 3 and 4 would match as well (In the diagram, the "Phlegmatic" you see in 1-4 indicates *moderate* expressiveness or responsiveness. The right direction in the square represents higher expressiveness (i.e. extroversion), and the vertical direction is responsiveness (people/task). Pure Phlegmatic (9), in the center, is moderate in both dimensions).


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## GranChi (Jun 16, 2013)

Hey Eric, remember me from that other thread on Typology Central? Anyway, I hope you didn't mind me writing that correlation based on yours without asking first - I made sure to give you credit. Thanks again.
Yeah, I read that page you wrote. Since this thread was using the traditional four temperaments that I prefer, I mostly translated your correlation into the four temperaments, and substituted phlegmatic for supine in the blends. (I think of phlegmatic as having the traits that supine is said to have, so I think it's mostly just a difference of names.) The reason I made 9 phlegmatic and 6 a central temperament was because the 9 is defined by traits of unassertiveness and a desire for peace, which are usually associated with the phlegmatic, while the 6 is more varied and generally less introverted, and can seem to have traits of different temperaments (as some have pointed out, a rebellious 6 could actually be somewhat choleric). The 6 does seem to lean more towards the phlegmatic/supine position, however.


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

No problem using my ideas.

I see the traditional temperaments as incomplete, and the five temperament theory as complete. Phlegmatic was seen as introverted and people-focused, but it's really moderate. They can take people or leave them. Their drive is really a lack of drive, low energy, which is why they were always peace desiring. 
Supine has energy in both dimensions. It is driven inward, but at the same time, driven to want from people. This will produce a similar "peace-loving" disposition, but again, it will have more of an emotional energy. When the need is not met, this could produce "choleric"-like reactions. They are described as appearing "controlling", but this is really a form of dependence.
So this would seem to fit a lot of what is described for 6.
And yes, Phlegmatic would be 9.


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## Kenkao (Dec 18, 2016)

Im infp type 2 and got melancholic - sanguine.


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## RoboticForest (Feb 12, 2017)

I'm rather curious about how tritype works in this system. Since how tritype works is when one way of thinking doesn't work, they move on to the next one, I wonder if that means our brain chemicals change when we get to the next part of our tritype? How does integration work? Disintegration?

Also, doesn't this have to do with mental health? I was a lot more anxiety ridden and moody when I was younger. Nowadays I'm a lot more calm and relaxed. This system doesn't seem as stable throughout life than enneagram and Mbti to me.

Anyone care to explain?


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## Quakers (Nov 15, 2016)

darude11 said:


> Listen, I know that it might sound unbelieveable, but... here is the proof (actually, only root of proof): The Enneagram Blogspot: Scientific Proof for the Enneagram
> 
> Okay, now, we can label the 4 Temperaments with the extremes of chemicals in the body:
> Sanguine - High Serotonin - Too happy with life of theirs, calm
> ...


I dont know what that norhino stuff is. This was my understanding;

Dopamine: "I want."
Serotonin: "I am satisfied."

Sanguine: High Dopamine, High Serotonin
Wants a lot out of life and is easily satisfied. Energetic and happy.

Melancholic: Low Dopamine, Low Serotonin
Wants little out of life but is not easily satisfied. Slow and depressive.

Choleric: High Dopamine, Low Serotonin
Wants a lot out of life but is not easily satisfied. Energetic and drawn to intensity.

Phlegmatic: Low Dopamine, High Serotonin
Requires little of life but is easily satisfied. Slow, calm and undemanding.


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

Wow; that's so interesting! While "dopamine" is I believe what's said to be what stimulates introversion and extraversion (which is the old factor of "expressiveness"), I had been thinking that perhaps the other factor (responsiveness; which is "people vs task focus", or "informing vs directing" in the corresponding Interaction Styles) might work the same way. So this is suggesting that seratonin is what controls that dimension!
Did you think of this yourself, or did you see it somewhere?

(I would say, again, Phlegmatic would be moderate , and this would lead to their less "driven" behavior; while Supine would be low dopamine and high serotonin. It should also be pointed out that "responsiveness" has corresponded to something called "wanted behavior", but this refers to want of interaction from others, or more accurate, the strength of the criteria one has in responding to uninvited interaction. People who are less satisfied will tent to have stronger criteria in who they will allow to approach them. So then dopamine "I want" would define want by the level we approach others for our goals. So the Choleric, for instance, "Wants" others for the goal more than they want the actual interaction from others).


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## Quakers (Nov 15, 2016)

Eric B said:


> Wow; that's so interesting! While "dopamine" is I believe what's said to be what stimulates introversion and extraversion (which is the old factor of "expressiveness"), I had been thinking that perhaps the other factor (responsiveness; which is "people vs task focus", or "informing vs directing" in the corresponding Interaction Styles) might work the same way. So this is suggesting that seratonin is what controls that dimension!
> Did you think of this yourself, or did you see it somewhere?
> 
> (I would say, again, Phlegmatic would be moderate , and this would lead to their less "driven" behavior; while Supine would be low dopamine and high serotonin. It should also be pointed out that "responsiveness" has corresponded to something called "wanted behavior", but this refers to want of interaction from others, or more accurate, the strength of the criteria one has in responding to uninvited interaction. People who are less satisfied will tent to have stronger criteria in who they will allow to approach them. So then dopamine "I want" would define want by the level we approach others for our goals. So the Choleric, for instance, "Wants" others for the goal more than they want the actual interaction from others).


Wait a minute, are *you* the guy that came up with the temperament theories on erictb.info?


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

I came up with the theories on that page of how type and temperament correspond, but yes, that's my page.


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