# I can't disagree or get mad



## effenelle (Sep 13, 2014)

I have a problem. I can't get mad. When people do something that incite my anger, I'd keep it inside, ignore and just keep quiet rather than scolding them. It is also hard for me to disagree on what people are telling me. I'd rather keep quiet, nod my head and silently disagree inside my head/rebelling behind them. You can say that I avoid any conflict at all cost. Here, maybe it's easier for me to describe it through examples:

1- My younger brother spilt some sauce on the floor and he didn't notice, but instead of getting angry and told him to clean it up, I'd clean it up myself (because I am responsible in keeping the house tidy). Some other times my other siblings would misplace things and I'm the one who'd put them back silently.

2- I've met my lecturer last week when applying for master's degree and he's concerned with me not getting any jobs after graduating. He began asking questions on how many jobs have I applied for, what kind of jobs...actually I want to write and draw and be an artist but hell, because of my own disability to disagree, I ended up getting Math as a degree. I just smiled and nodded at his questions without saying anything.

I'm worried for my future. I'm worried I couldn't defend my thesis at the end of this master's degree I'm taking. I'm afraid I'll fail at interviews.

What should I do?

I'd like to invite you to try and get me mad, maybe I can practice disagreeing with you guys.


----------



## cardinalfire (Dec 10, 2009)

Hey,

from my experience this is hard for many because it puts us at risk, we essentially don't know how others will react and yet we are defending our position and beliefs in the process. The thing to bare in mind is to keep your beliefs to yourself, and don't feel like you have to compromise who you are for others. If your brother spits something on the floor, you got to have courage to say to him, why on earth do you do that and why should I have to clear up after you all the time? You know if you carry on like that into adulthood , no one is going to be around to clear up after you? Yeah it does take courage.

Hell even adults have problems with this. I think many people would rather put things under the carpet then have a real conversation. It's like I was talking with someone at work the other week, and we were just talking about things we agreed on and disagreed, and I just stood my ground and explained my point of view and where I was coming from. I hadn't done it before, and I was just like, I have nothing to lose and I can't go through life bottling things up, because it just makes things ten times harder for me. I think it's easier to start with simple things like someone asking you if you want to have a piece of cake or a can of coke, just politely refuse, no thanks i'm good, which is responding to a request.

I think responding to a request and disagreeing is easier than the instance with your brother, where he isn't saying anything to you, you have to confront him of your own will if that makes sense? It's not like he is saying to you, hey effenelle, do you like me doing this? because then you can just turn around and say 'no', its easier to do then.

You can practice with me if you like, how about we start with 'so effenelle, isn't your brother lovely for spitting on the floor?'

Disagree and say no.


----------



## Pantali (Jan 31, 2015)

You want people to make you mad?  I can't do that but I can give you a slightly angry pep talk! Hopefully that'll either make you mad or make you feel better!

Listen, you're not gonna be able to do fuck all with your life if you don't try to assert yourself. You can get a carrier writing and drawing if you don't wanna go freelance but either way you're gonna have to sort it out yourself! Tell your lecturer that you don't want to do maths and if he tries to make you feel bad about it tell him to fuck off because it's the right choice for your happiness. Pursue a major in art, literature or creative writing and ask the lecturers of said subject if they can help you find an internship or experience in a field related to one of those subjects. If you want to go free-lance you should ask them how you can get yourself recognised.

See, this is the issue, you're putting other people's happiness above your own. You are clearly a kind, considerate person for doing so so I have no problem telling you it will be better for you and everyone around you that you focus a little more on your own happiness. It is okay to be 'selfish' if not doing so otherwise will impact on you negatively. Be fucking assertive and make moves towards a carrier path you want to pursue!

Ask yourself, what will doing what another person wants achieve for you? Don't study maths, get a poor grade because you wrote a thesis on something you're not passionate about and then go into a field you'll contribute nothing to; it'll make you miserable and the people around you. Go and work to become an artists or writer, people will see the passion you put into your work and that will make them and you happy.

Please remember you can't ensure other people's happiness without ensuring your own. I really don't want you to be trapped in a situation where you're becoming more and more unhappy because you're so focused on others! D:


----------



## cardinalfire (Dec 10, 2009)

Pantali said:


> You want people to make you mad?  I can't do that but I can give you a slightly angry pep talk! Hopefully that'll either make you mad or make you feel better!
> 
> Listen, you're not gonna be able to fuck all with your life if you don't try to assert yourself. You can get a carrier writing and drawing if you don't wanna go freelance but either way you're gonna have to sort it out yourself! Tell your lecturer that you don't want to do maths and if he tries to make you feel bad about it tell him to fuck off because it's the right choice for your happiness. Pursue a major in art, literature or creative writing and ask the lecturers of said subject if they can help you find an internship or experience in a field related to one of those subjects. If you want to go free-lance you should ask them how you can get yourself recognised.
> 
> ...


What she said ^

I went for the , lets try and work this out approach, when you just went 'all in'. Think that would have come next. haha.

Though yeah, never do what other people want you to do, trust me, it will make you miserable.

Is getting this masters essential for you to pursue your art? Will you need it to pay bills to then be able to do your art? Or is it that you've done so much you want to finish it?


----------



## Pantali (Jan 31, 2015)

cardinalfire said:


> What she said ^
> 
> I went for the , lets try and work this out approach, when you just went 'all in'. Think that would have come next. haha.
> 
> ...


Yeah, sorry I got a little intense but honestly effenelle, people are going to appreciate it if you stand up for yourself. I find for some people giving them a supportive yet stern talk can help, but I'm very sorry if I've done the opposite!

I think you should start with small steps, talking to your lecturer about the possibility of doing your masters on something else you'd feel more confident talking about. It doesn't matter if nothing comes out of it right now, doing that would be an achievement in itself because you would have been assertive!


----------



## cardinalfire (Dec 10, 2009)

Yeah take it from someone who has gone through a lot and has regrets, its harder once you get stuck in something that you don't want to do. If you know what you are passionate about and nothing stands in your way, go after it. Don't become like other people, who get stuck in situations that they don't like sometimes down to things outside of their control, it takes so much more work to try and get to a better place afterwards. 

If I had known what my life was going to be like, I would have done things differently, but it's not like I could have seen my future. Every day I think of what I ought to be doing and how I can improve my life and make sense out of hard things i've been through. I wouldn't wish it on anyone, so I hope you can find the guts to be a bit more brave and just say something to your lecturer and peers, think the alternative is to wake up in years time, being utterly miserable. Sometimes even watching friends and people you know try for their dreams and passions, whilst you are thinking 'why did I not say something?'. Hate to be so bleak, its just i've been through hell and seen these things happen, as i'm sure many have. Some people don't get good things out of life, don't be one of those people.


----------



## effenelle (Sep 13, 2014)

cardinalfire said:


> Hey,
> 
> from my experience this is hard for many because it puts us at risk, we essentially don't know how others will react and yet we are defending our position and beliefs in the process. The thing to bare in mind is to keep your beliefs to yourself, and don't feel like you have to compromise who you are for others. If your brother spits something on the floor, you got to have courage to say to him, why on earth do you do that and why should I have to clear up after you all the time? You know if you carry on like that into adulthood , no one is going to be around to clear up after you? Yeah it does take courage.
> 
> ...


Yeah, actually I'm alright when turning down requests like that, like you said, it's harder for me to confront people when they did something wrong. I'd just keep silent and hope nothing bad would happen. At times when I did confront my brother and told him to clean up after himself, I actually felt uncomfortable because he would just repeat the same offense after that. It feels useless. So rather than telling them on their mistakes, I'd rather clean up after them. I know I'd get tired doing that, but if I did, people would complain about me being bossy and demanding, and I'd be sad...I guess I'm afraid of people's impression on me.

And for the practice, if I wasn't trying to solve this problem I'd reply: Whatever you say, cardinalfire. If that's how you view it, so be it.

But lemme try:
No, I don't think he's lovely when he did that. What makes you say that?

(Uhh sorry, I'm not trying to pick a fight with you... )


----------



## effenelle (Sep 13, 2014)

Pantali said:


> You want people to make you mad?  I can't do that but I can give you a slightly angry pep talk! Hopefully that'll either make you mad or make you feel better!
> 
> Listen, you're not gonna be able to do fuck all with your life if you don't try to assert yourself. You can get a carrier writing and drawing if you don't wanna go freelance but either way you're gonna have to sort it out yourself! Tell your lecturer that you don't want to do maths and if he tries to make you feel bad about it tell him to fuck off because it's the right choice for your happiness. Pursue a major in art, literature or creative writing and ask the lecturers of said subject if they can help you find an internship or experience in a field related to one of those subjects. If you want to go free-lance you should ask them how you can get yourself recognised.


That lecturer I met is actually sort of preventing me to pursue my studies further because it'll be hard. He wanted me to get a job appropriate with my Math degree, but I can't say that to him that I don't want to do that kind of job :frustrating: that's the problem! How can I tell him that?! How can I be brave of myself? T_T



Pantali said:


> See, this is the issue, you're putting other people's happiness above your own. You are clearly a kind, considerate person for doing so so I have no problem telling you it will be better for you and everyone around you that you focus a little more on your own happiness. It is okay to be 'selfish' if not doing so otherwise will impact on you negatively. Be fucking assertive and make moves towards a carrier path you want to pursue!


I'm not that kind that I put others' happiness above my own...I think I'm much more likely to hurt others with my words as I'm an ISTP...haha. And how to more assertive, really? Won't people dislike people who are assertive? How can I stop caring on what other people think of me? Ughh this is so frustrating!



Pantali said:


> Ask yourself, what will doing what another person wants achieve for you? Don't study maths, get a poor grade because you wrote a thesis on something you're not passionate about and then go into a field you'll contribute nothing to; it'll make you miserable and the people around you. Go and work to become an artists or writer, people will see the passion you put into your work and that will make them and you happy.
> 
> Please remember you can't ensure other people's happiness without ensuring your own. I really don't want you to be trapped in a situation where you're becoming more and more unhappy because you're so focused on others! D:


Another problem is that I don't really know what to do as a career. I have damn lots of interests, I'm afraid that drawing and writing are not my real passion. I'm fine with taking Math, really, I've passed my degree quite well. I'm good in studying, that's why I decide to continue pursuing a master in the same field. It's just that I'm afraid I'll just keep quiet and nod my head when the examiners criticize my work during my thesis presentation. I need to at least learn how to defend myself! :frustrating:

Writing and drawing can stay in the background as a hobby, or maybe doing them in small steps, free lance like you said. I'd be happy as long as I have time to spend on them.


----------



## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

I've had problem with confronting people like that too, but you take it to an extreme level, sister. You are not a slave and you are not responsible for cleaning up after other people's messes (literally or figuratively). 
In the end, you are hurting your brothers by cleaning up after them, because they will never learn to do that themselves and be responsible people.
You are afraid what others will think of you if you disagree with them, but many times people view others who don't express themselves, negatively. 
It's your life and you have to take it in your hands. 
You can start by small things, like with your brothers. It won't be easy because it seems your brothers are quite comfortable with you being a slave and them not having any responsibilities, but it's best for EVERYONE involved for that to change.
I also suggest seeing a psychologist as those issues can be quite complex and hard for one to solve on their own. Changing the dynamics of family relationships and learning to speak your true opinion can be very difficult to do, but POSSIBLE.


----------



## Deejaz (Feb 19, 2014)

effenelle said:


> I have a problem. I can't get mad. When people do something that incite my anger, I'd keep it inside, ignore and just keep quiet rather than scolding them. It is also hard for me to disagree on what people are telling me. I'd rather keep quiet, nod my head and silently disagree inside my head/rebelling behind them. You can say that I avoid any conflict at all cost. Here, maybe it's easier for me to describe it through examples:
> 
> 1- My younger brother spilt some sauce on the floor and he didn't notice, but instead of getting angry and told him to clean it up, I'd clean it up myself (because I am responsible in keeping the house tidy). Some other times my other siblings would misplace things and I'm the one who'd put them back silently.
> 
> ...


I only learned through change of environment that which became pretty influential. I'm surrounded with people.. let's say.. who would argue strongly against a stranger, present their opinions as if facts, blunt as hell, and were not afraid to tell you that they don't like you. 

But seriously, if you were to argue/defend/present something, one that works for me is _a lot_ of practice. I mean A LOT. Master your arguments or information, slowly and continuously draw your inner thoughts and feelings on paper and then _speak it._ It's a massive confidence boost. Practice in-front of the mirror and in-front of other people. over and over. 

about your brother, it's not exactly bad not to be angry, it's good. But try not to spoil them, maybe don't get angry but do tell them off.. just saying.


----------



## Pantali (Jan 31, 2015)

effenelle said:


> That lecturer I met is actually sort of preventing me to pursue my studies further because it'll be hard. He wanted me to get a job appropriate with my Math degree, but I can't say that to him that I don't want to do that kind of job :frustrating: that's the problem! How can I tell him that?! How can I be brave of myself? T_T


Well you've just got to put faith in yourself! I think he'll support you if you honestly, truly don't want a career in that field. If you are brave enough to talk to him then I'm sure he'll think you're capable of finding work in a more difficult field.

I know how difficult it is, I've had anxiety attacks before because I've had to go to see teachers about my future prospects, but you just need to keep calm. Ask if you can see him at a set time if you feel like that will help you to see him or if that worries you then just go and see him when you're ready. Work out what you want to tell him before you go to see him so you feel you are going there with a purpose. Take deep breaths and don't forget what you came to do. Ask a friend if they can give you some moral support whist you are preparing to talk to him. Hell, I'll give you support if nobody else will! 




effenelle said:


> I'm not that kind that I put others' happiness above my own...I think I'm much more likely to hurt others with my words as I'm an ISTP...haha. And how to more assertive, really? Won't people dislike people who are assertive? How can I stop caring on what other people think of me? Ughh this is so frustrating!


Ahh I think I understand now. My ISTP friends have similar problems, I think you guys can really struggle to show your negative emotions because you guys don't get a good hold on your Fe until later on in life. The trick is to be assertive but not aggressive. You should listen to people and try to understand where they are coming from but you shouldn't do as they say if you don't agree with it. People respect that as it shows you can think for yourself!

I'll give you an example. Last year I completed an academic project outside of my studies to improve my research skills. My supervisor advised me to create a very detailed and specific day-to-day plan so I could complete the project on time. Being an ENFP that would have made me miserable, so I instead just decided to work on set days of the week so I had a schedule but it gave me some room for manoeuvrability. When I told my teacher about my flexible schedule he praised me because he thought it showed that I knew myself and my capabilities well. He said the fact that I had been assertive and did what was best for me shown I had grown and matured as a person. 





effenelle said:


> Another problem is that I don't really know what to do as a career. I have damn lots of interests, I'm afraid that drawing and writing are not my real passion. I'm fine with taking Math, really, I've passed my degree quite well. I'm good in studying, that's why I decide to continue pursuing a master in the same field. It's just that I'm afraid I'll just keep quiet and nod my head when the examiners criticize my work during my thesis presentation. I need to at least learn how to defend myself! :frustrating:
> 
> Writing and drawing can stay in the background as a hobby, or maybe doing them in small steps, free lance like you said. I'd be happy as long as I have time to spend on them.


If you are fine taking Maths and carrying on with writing and art as hobbies then that sounds great! But if you're worried that you won't be able to defend your thesis then there's one simple answer; gather an extensive knowledge of the topic you choose and then logically counter any points they make using it. I had to present the findings of my project to an audience and have them answer questions about it and knowing so much about my topic literally saved my ass on that occasion. I'd also just like to remind you that even if you worry that the examiners will pick apart your thesis they probably won't, if you put the effort in into your work then it'll turn out better than you expect!

I hope that at least helps you get started! Again, I'm sorry if I got too aggressive in my original post, I get fired up when people are in tricky situations and start condemning whatever has upset them ^^;


----------



## cardinalfire (Dec 10, 2009)

effenelle said:


> Yeah, actually I'm alright when turning down requests like that, like you said, it's harder for me to confront people when they did something wrong. I'd just keep silent and hope nothing bad would happen. At times when I did confront my brother and told him to clean up after himself, I actually felt uncomfortable because he would just repeat the same offense after that. It feels useless. So rather than telling them on their mistakes, I'd rather clean up after them. I know I'd get tired doing that, but if I did, people would complain about me being bossy and demanding, and I'd be sad...I guess I'm afraid of people's impression on me.
> 
> And for the practice, if I wasn't trying to solve this problem I'd reply: Whatever you say, cardinalfire. If that's how you view it, so be it.
> 
> ...


no worries, I was just trying to think of an example to help you practice with, I was worried about you picking a fight with me, I was just thinking what can I do to give you something to practice with? Sounds a bit awkward now.

What kind of practice were you after? Have you ever tried just asking him, why do you spit on the floor and then say to your brother, if you spit on the floor could you at least clear it up after you? Have you ever told your parents that he does that? You shouldn't be clearing up after him especially not if he is going to keep doing it. Have you ever tried leaving his mess? If someone i knew spat on the floor i would just leave it, you are not responsible for other peoples problems, just leave the mess on the floor maybe see how he likes that, its not like you are obligated to pick it up. Or are your parents forcing you to?


----------



## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

The only way I can think of trying to get you mad would be by insulting you, and that would just get me banned.

However, I think you should try saying no to the little things, as practice. If someone leaves something out of place, don't pick it up and tell them to do it. Simple things like that. It will be hard, but with a bit of courage and practice you can get ahold of it and then move on to more important things.


----------



## cardinalfire (Dec 10, 2009)

Would it help if you just imagined me as your brother and lecturer and just say to me what you would like to say to them? 

I mean what would you like to say to your brother...

And lecturer....


Then like others have said , write this on paper and then have it with you when go to talk to them. Your lecturer in particular and like pant said, I don't think he or she will mind if you go ij there and honestly speak your mind and tell him what it is you want to say, especially if that is, I'd like to finish my degree but not sure if I want to pursue these jobs you want me to and to go for these jobs you want and I'm not sure if this is the career I want long term. I know I want to finish my thesis and masters and that you have helped me and that these jobs are good, I'm just not sure if they are the jobs that I want to be doing, or if I want something else.

I know the feeling of not being sure it's a pain the back side, I thought I wanted something years ago and I don't know if instill do and thenlimbo feeling is crippling especially when someone is trying to get you to do something you don't want to do or forcing you to be or act a certain way when you don't want to. I also know how painful it feels when someone thinks they know what is best for you and you wish they would just see things from your point of view and understand that maybe you don't want what they do.


----------



## effenelle (Sep 13, 2014)

Pantali said:


> Well you've just got to put faith in yourself! I think he'll support you if you honestly, truly don't want a career in that field. If you are brave enough to talk to him then I'm sure he'll think you're capable of finding work in a more difficult field.
> 
> I know how difficult it is, I've had anxiety attacks before because I've had to go to see teachers about my future prospects, but you just need to keep calm. Ask if you can see him at a set time if you feel like that will help you to see him or if that worries you then just go and see him when you're ready. Work out what you want to tell him before you go to see him so you feel you are going there with a purpose. Take deep breaths and don't forget what you came to do. Ask a friend if they can give you some moral support whist you are preparing to talk to him. Hell, I'll give you support if nobody else will!
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for sharing your experiences! It calms me down a bit. I guess I was worried because the topic I'm taking for my master's degree is a new one, so I don't know much about it. The thesis presentation is in two years time, but I kinda got impatient and expect the worst from the examiners >< haha. I really should learn to see the good in other people, like you. Thanks again!

And no worries about that aggressive post.


----------



## effenelle (Sep 13, 2014)

cardinalfire said:


> Would it help if you just imagined me as your brother and lecturer and just say to me what you would like to say to them?
> 
> I mean what would you like to say to your brother...
> 
> ...


Ohhh you get me! Thank you! I'm not really sure what I really want to do in life. I guess I just have to try everything. But I know I don't want to do what people tell me to. I feel like they are pushing me when I want to take time figuring things out.

And about my lecturer...

I'm actually scared that he'll judge me and ask further into it that I'll start to feel like he's judging me/intruding my personal life. Here's how it went before:

Lecturer: why didn't you get a job? Did you apply? How many did you send your resume to?
Me: uhh...there are some. (And those are because my mom told me to.)
Lecturer: how about becoming a teacher? You take a minor in Education, right?
Me: yes, but I don't really want to be a teacher.
Lecturer: then why did you take a minor in Education?
Me: ...because my mom wanted me to.
Lecturer: why? Why would she want you to?
Me: ...because it'll be easier for me to go home on weekends (because other minors have classes on weekends)
Lecturer: why? I don't get that. Why would you mother wants you to go back each weekend?
Me: ....

If I continue and say what's on my mind...I'd imagine it'll go like this:

Me: I don't want to get a job in Math industry.
Lecturer: then why did you take Math as a degree?
Me: ...I wanted to take Physics in the first place, but as it was not offered so...
Lecturer: so if you took Physics then what job would you plan to apply for?
Me: ...I don't know! Scientist...or something like that?

I seriously don't know about my future. I suspect this lecturer of mine is an INTJ, hence those questions. I'm okay with taking Math or Physics, but I'm just not interested in the job prospects! Hell, I'm happy with just being a cleaner, cleaning the toilets and mopping the floor.

...huh...I wish I could tell this to him...but I don't want him to ask more judgmental questions...



Diligent Procrastinator said:


> The only way I can think of trying to get you mad would be by insulting you, and that would just get me banned.
> 
> However, I think you should try saying no to the little things, as practice. If someone leaves something out of place, don't pick it up and tell them to do it. Simple things like that. It will be hard, but with a bit of courage and practice you can get ahold of it and then move on to more important things.


I do that sometimes, leave it there and tell them to pick it. But sometimes when they do it again, I'll feel annoyed to repeat what I've told them before. So I'd either pick it up myself of just leave it there. But if I leave it there and my mom sees it...she will begin to yell around, asking who did it, saying no one help doing anything in this house...I feel responsible for her happiness and I don't want to put her in any stress. I care about her, especially after my father's death. Okay, that's a bit personal there...


----------



## cardinalfire (Dec 10, 2009)

effenelle said:


> Ohhh you get me! Thank you! I'm not really sure what I really want to do in life. I guess I just have to try everything. But I know I don't want to do what people tell me to. I feel like they are pushing me when I want to take time figuring things out.<br>
> <br>
> And about my lecturer...<br>
> <br>
> ...


<br>
<br>I'll write a bigger reply in a moment, though I can say I know that feeling, being pushed or rushed when I just wanted some quiet place , somewhere nice and stable to work stuff out, especially because ive been through hell. I too was also happy just being a cleaner and though im not sure i wanted to stay as one, i certainly experienced things that i would have rather not have happened and felt being pressured into making a choice when i felt like i needed answers and to understand things. I have a terrible time moving onto something new when I can't understand what has happened previously, so when I've gone through something traumatic or something that doesn't make sense or when i've had the life taken out of me for reasons I can't understand, its hard for me to rush into something, which this world is good at making us do, because I want to resolve and understand and make sense out of what happened in my past, don't know if you relate to that at all.<br><br>


----------



## Pantali (Jan 31, 2015)

effenelle said:


> Thank you so much for sharing your experiences! It calms me down a bit. I guess I was worried because the topic I'm taking for my master's degree is a new one, so I don't know much about it. The thesis presentation is in two years time, but I kinda got impatient and expect the worst from the examiners >< haha. I really should learn to see the good in other people, like you. Thanks again!
> 
> And no worries about that aggressive post.


No problem! I'm glad it helped you a little! I think I'll leave Cardinalfire to give you some more advice since I think they've got more experience with this sort of situation then me. But I wish you the best of luck!


----------



## cardinalfire (Dec 10, 2009)

Pantali said:


> No problem! I'm glad it helped you a little! I think I'll leave Cardinalfire to give you some more advice since I think they've got more experience with this sort of situation then me. But I wish you the best of luck!


Thanks though you might see things I don't.  I've just been through a lot of hell that's all.


----------



## cardinalfire (Dec 10, 2009)

Would you be happier if you were to say, stay as a cleaner and then studied something on the side? Sounds like you were rushed into doing your degree / masters without really wanting to and without knowing what you were going to do afterwards. I say to all the young people I work with, if you are going to go to college or uni, know why you are going and don't take on the loans, commitment etc unless you know.

Once you've finished your thesis obviously. Finish your current degree / masters first and defend what you say to critics then work out what you're going to do next.


----------

