# 478 sx/sp 4w5 losing touch with 4, integrating to 8, how so?



## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

Dear people, why is there no casual chatter thread under enneagram?

I am a 478 sx/sp 4w5 but lately I have been out of touch with my 4. Now please don't think I am putting it lightly, my childhood motivations and fears and my teenage angst and the way I have kept renovating myself throughout these years and my motivations or things I tell to myself and my insecurities are very deeply 4. However, lately life has thrown a lot on my way and I have become bitter, fierce, goddamn angry and blatant, sharp, razor tongued and competitive in some ways too. This is after a sad, emotionally down phase and I have stopped to wallow in my emotions at some point, I am straight up angry. Even my pulse which was under 60 at ALL times has risen up to insane numbers these past months.

What is happening? Is it possible the life conditions push me to my tritype (obviously it is not integration to 1, or disintegration to 2)? Or is it just a normal gut reaction that can happen to everybody? It just seems like it is the default mode I am living in now.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

I mean, you'll have to explain how you see your current feelings and behaviors as being specifically 8ish, as opposed to simply a stress reaction. 

I think it is within the nature of type 4 to be angry, bitter, fierce, and competitive--it's pretty much how they describe sx4. So again, you'll have to give us some more information regarding these feelings.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

Lord Bullingdon said:


> I mean, you'll have to explain how you see your current feelings and behaviors as being specifically 8ish, as opposed to simply a stress reaction.
> 
> I think it is within the nature of type 4 to be angry, bitter, fierce, and competitive--it's pretty much how they describe sx4. So again, you'll have to give us some more information regarding these feelings.


Okay, sometimes I find it motivating, but it doesn't last long enough in that spectrum so can't say I put it to work.

Sometimes, when things get there, "I" want to escalate things, it is getting very difficult for me to resist going extremes therefore I am left with a faster heart beat and frustration.

My mood is used to being sad, emotional. vulnerable, melancholic, depressed but now I find this annoying, I am rather "angry" with everything around me. Things get on my nerves easily. I don't look for in betweens anymore, it is either this or nothing, my outlook has become somewhat dismissive of common grounds.

I understand that this might simply be a "mood", I can not tell the difference, I have sort of been assertive and independent to a fault and I like to challenge people usually via opinions and wit, I also confront people and am outspoken despite being an INFP. I have always hated the authority and I have often got in confrontations with them so, that is difficult for me to say that has changed. Especially when the authority is wrong and they are using their authority -just because- to make me do something or make me feel a certain way or when they can not answer my questions or help me, because this rule that rule, authority yada yada. It is just that I would feel down and embarrassed after those moments, now I bounce back from that mood easily with not much guilt.

I think more importantly, I have lost touch with my 4 quite a lot, but not in integration or disintegration paths. And true, I have always thought sx 4 has commonground with 8 but I don't know..this whole mood taking over has to do with anger than anything else. But I don't have a go-getter mentality so it is not like I act like a healthy 8.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

A sx 4 can be every bit as fierce and angry as a sx 8. They are both very reactive types. What's going on in your life? What sorts of stressors and responsibilities are you under? What sorts of major changes are you facing? What are the three things you find yourself worrying about the most?


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## periwinklepromise (Jan 26, 2015)

My first impression of the OP was, "Sounds like a manic episode." *NOT AN ARMCHAIR DIAGNOSIS*. A friend of mine was recently diagnosed with bipolar disorder, so I've just got it on the brain rn. 

That said, I do think this could all just be categorized as a mood shift (tho clinically _in_significant, everybody goes through these). I don't know you at all, but in your second post it did seem to me that you identify heavily with your mood, and you describe your base mood as very (stereotypically?) 4. It doesn't surprise me that any other mood would make you feel unsettled or "like" another type. 

"Integrating" is a certain concept that communicates certain things within an Enneagram community. As a 4, you would not be "integrating" to 8, which ofc you already know. 

That said, you also identify as 47*8*. If you do believe this new mood/experience can be best described as 8 in nature, could this not be the move to a different type in your tritype, as defined by the Fauvres?



> One of the three types in one’s Tritype is dominant or primary and represents the ego’s preferred defense strategy. However, when the strategy of the dominant Enneagram Type fails, the ego then uses the strategies of the other two types within the Tritype in a repeating, descending order. In an attempt to solve a problem, the ego will continue to deploy the other two types in the Tritype until the issue is resolved.


(I cut the Rights Reserved marks because it was fucking with formatting.) (This comes from _The 27 Tritypes Revealed_, page 7)

You stated that this shift happened due to life situations/events, and presumably stress. Was there a period between this 4 stage and this 8 stage where you were acting more 7? Do you feel like your normal 4 responses will not help you with the problems you are currently facing?

I also agree with LB that this could all just be another dimension of 4, though perhaps not one that you're used to.


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## DarkSideOfLight (Feb 15, 2011)

Same tritype here.
@periwinklepromise I wouldn't go down the bipolar alley, I was exploring this and it's just bs. This tritype is so fucking intense in whatever is happening you name it:sadness, emptiness, happiness, pride, competing. The bottom line is - extreme. Kid got scared how much energy he/she can wield  
@nichya welcome on the other side of the same coin. Recently, I read The Complete Enneagram: 27 paths... This looks like 4 Sx description or even better a 4-8Sx combo. Now, the fun bit is the book and your thread makes me question where the anger is coming from in my case. I thought it was 8. Still can't see any other option in the gut section but 8's influence might not be as high as I was giving it credit for and this is probably the same case in your situation.


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## periwinklepromise (Jan 26, 2015)

@DarkSideOfLight no, I agree with you, that's why I put that giant disclaimer in all caps, lol. I am in no way actually saying we should consider a clinical diagnosis of anything. As I said, my mind went there bc my mind is basically living there rn.

ETA: the friend that's been diagnosed doesn't even have 4 or 8 in her tritype, lol, so it's entirely off-topic


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

tanstaafl28 said:


> A sx 4 can be every bit as fierce and angry as a sx 8. They are both very reactive types. What's going on in your life? What sorts of stressors and responsibilities are you under? What sorts of major changes are you facing? What are the three things you find yourself worrying about the most?


I have had problems with authority at work, I am having problems with my studies/work, I have future concerns, I have great stressors about what is going on in my country/the world, too much unknown and I am afraid of not living to my potential, I operate way under my potential, I have a love/hate relationship with parents which is unhealthy, I think I will never fall in love again and die alone, I think life is not fair, I was heartbroken once but now I am angry, I am angry that there is no justice, I am angry at God, for him having favorites, for being so out of luck, for having to deal with everything alone and on my own, and oh I have a hell of a roommate that is a constant stressor even when I do my best to ignore her, she finds new ways to act up, I am angry at my friends who never bothered to ask me my version, even ones that should have known me better, fake people, my recent accident that resulted in a head injury (no concussion or brain injury luckily, and to everyone's surprise - it was scary though) and everyone tells me to sue the facility...too much to list but multiple constant stressors that is akin to slow burn. I even get angry and impatient with stupidity or incompetence of people >.< I think I also disregard my emotional side as something of a use of time - I don't know.

Recently I have began to wake up to my heart pounding, I might be having anxiety issues but it is not really as described as a panic attack.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

periwinklepromise said:


> but in your second post it did seem to me that you identify heavily with your mood, and you describe your base mood as very (stereotypically?) 4. It doesn't surprise me that any other mood would make you feel unsettled or "like" another type.


You have a good point here.

Indeed there was a time I was acting like a straight 7! I suppose that was also related to a change of my life circumstances. I was like on top of the world, lucky, happy, energetic, outgoing, confident, diving in opportunities, even adored. Now looking back, I often think I was narrow visioned and too hedonistic for positive vibes. I haven't read that book, thanks for sharing that part, it is interesting and seems like I might be experiencing it. It was a short but vibrant time.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

DarkSideOfLight said:


> Same tritype here.
> @periwinklepromise I wouldn't go down the bipolar alley, I was exploring this and it's just bs. This tritype is so fucking intense in whatever is happening you name it:sadness, emptiness, happiness, pride, competing. The bottom line is - extreme. Kid got scared how much energy he/she can wield


Yep. That is right.

I thought my 8 just made me more outspoken, domineering, and a challenger, I haven't experienced straight up anger, it was more in the tones of teenage angst, I will show you sort of angst.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

nichya said:


> I have had problems with authority at work, I am having problems with my studies/work, I have future concerns, I have great stressors about what is going on in my country/the world, too much unknown and I am afraid of not living to my potential, I operate way under my potential, I have a love/hate relationship with parents which is unhealthy, I think I will never fall in love again and die alone, I think life is not fair, I was heartbroken once but now I am angry, I am angry that there is no justice, I am angry at God, for him having favorites, for being so out of luck, for having to deal with everything alone and on my own, and oh I have a hell of a roommate that is a constant stressor even when I do my best to ignore her, she finds new ways to act up, I am angry at my friends who never bothered to ask me my version, even ones that should have known me better, fake people, my recent accident that resulted in a head injury (no concussion or brain injury luckily, and to everyone's surprise - it was scary though) and everyone tells me to sue the facility...too much to list but multiple constant stressors that is akin to slow burn.
> 
> Recently I have began to wake up to my heart pounding, I might be having anxiety issues but it is not really as described as a panic attack.


Yeah, it sounds like you're going through some stressful life changes and whatnot. I remember those days. This too shall pass, and all that. You might want to find some physical activity to help take some of the edge off. That and maybe some meditation (if you can stand to sit still for a little while).


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## DarkSideOfLight (Feb 15, 2011)

nichya said:


> You have a good point here.
> 
> Indeed there was a time I was acting like a straight 7! I suppose that was also related to a change of my life circumstances. I was like on top of the world, lucky, happy, energetic, outgoing, confident, diving in opportunities, even adored.


This is like a description of my childhood. Wow. I've been told I was a genius and I always was the best at my thing. What better way to feed a 4s ego? 



> Now looking back, I often think I was narrow visioned and too hedonistic for positive vibes.


No need to punish yourself or downplay good times. This is actually how life can be, at least for some time. We just feel it more intense both the good and the bad. Get used to the good side. It may feel foreign but trust me I was there for a long time and it's OK.



nichya said:


> Yep. That is right.
> 
> I thought my 8 just made me more outspoken, domineering, and a challenger, I haven't experienced straight up anger, it was more in the tones of teenage angst, I will show you sort of angst.


I feel the same about it. Anxiety has its limit and turns into anger. It's easier to get angry and deal with stuff than just run away. Both anger or angst aren't optimal. Anger feels better though. Any day of my life I would chose anger over anxiety.

Don't get me wrong it might be your gut. That's what I thought, but retrospectively it wasn't coming from there it was more of a hurt ego. And you know it's OK, it gives you sense of control. Sort of like a transition stage. I feel like we have travelled in opposite directions in our lives. I went from rosy to dark. You are on your way to find the paradise. Just to let you know you can feel at home in either one. You can get used to being at the top, just after initial wave of hedonism it's good to stabilize a bit. Find something that you are passionate about and lose yourself in it. [EDIT] @tanstaafl28 gave you a fantastic tip, make sure the thing is a physical activity and you are gold[EDIT].

Hope this makes fucking sense, I'm getting back in touch with my feelings once again and it is still a bit weird


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## DarkSideOfLight (Feb 15, 2011)

tanstaafl28 said:


> Yeah, it sounds like you're going through some stressful life changes and whatnot. I remember those days. This too shall pass, and all that. You might want to find some physical activity to help take some of the edge off. That and maybe some meditation (if you can stand to sit still for a little while).


You Sir have just mentioned the best, THE best thing ever. Nothing helps better than getting physically wasted  I even have this saying if there is any sickness approaching me the only thing I do is a bit of garlic and press-ups. Job done, every single time. 

Funny that I just found out about this as a self-help for a 4


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

I think what's important to remember also, is that _anyone_ can be angry. Fiercely angry and lashing out. Feelings of anger in themselves are not unique to gut types, or it would be impossible for other types to feel anger which is just a stupid assertion to make. People are born to feel feelings and these feelings are not controlled by our enneagram type. If we are going to be super scientific about it, our feelings are entirely defined by our limbic system, and we have very little if no control, over the reactions of our limbic system. Either we are born with a sensitive one or we are not born with a very sensitive one. It's just neurobiology. Our limbic system can then be activated by experiencing various things such as stress in our lives such as losing loved ones etc. Depending on how sensitive our limibic system is, we will react more or less to these events. Very sensitive people will have strong mood changes and shifts even to events that to others may seem more minor whereas people with less sensitive systems may almost seem uncaring towards events that to others would be considered life-altering. 

Rather, what distinguishes types apart, then, is how you identify with certain emotions and how these emotions tell you who you are. Gut types identify with their anger at some level; their sense of self is determined based on their anger (or lack thereof). 8s strongly identify with anger as something positive so they see anger as something good to feel, part because anger makes them feel powerful. So they want to feel angry and indulge in feelings of anger. 

And here we begin to see how there is an entire ego structure built around the feeling of anger in itself, that your anger says something about your person and how you identify in the world. Anger makes you strong, it makes you powerful, it makes you forceful and enables you to move forward and get things done. And while surely anyone could in a momentary situation of course embody such a mentality because that's what I think it really means to have all types within us, the question is how long-lasting it really is for you and how much attention you really spend on identifying with it. 

For a type 8 it's much more neurotic, it's a constant in the background. Not so much for other types, even though they can surely dip into that mentality if life circumstances warrant it. A type 8 is a type 8 because they embody this mentality even in situations that don't necessarily warrant it, hence the idea that we need to let go of our egos. When the ego is identified with a type 8 structure, it will automatically react with a type 8 reaction as its first way to deal with problems regardless whether such a reaction is appropriate for the situation or not. That's the point of figuring out your enneagram type, imo, to realize that you have this idea of how to deal with things in life that tends to overall, be maladaptive than adaptive. 

Furthermore, what is being described sounds less like healthy type 8 anger and more average kind of anger. When integrating, we take on positive qualities of the type, so for someone to integrate towards type 8, especially from a type 5 perspective, it means to simply begin to demand more from the world. Instead of feeling small and you need to hide away due to a sense of inner frailty, the frailty is instead replaced by a sense of empowerment and strength. It doesn't necessarily mean to be angry though, but simply just expecting more, to take on more and do more. All head types have an underlying belief that they are too weak to manage in the world alone, so for type 5 in particular, it's about becoming bold and to dare to move forward despite not knowing what lies ahead.


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## ChaoticEvil (Aug 17, 2017)

anger is the cheapest and easiest exhaustion method.

it totally works though. when you feel sad you can totally transform that into anger every single time. or when you feel inferior or when you feel ordinary...

instead of feeling sad for two months, throw that fucking iphone against the wall and shout "fuck you god you fucking cocksucking motherfucking shithead" and after a few minutes everything is peachy again.

because you transformed that sadness or that existential depression or whatever into sound energy and kinetic energy and spit and saliva and rage. so yes, you indeed get rid of the negative feelings.

for now!

the cause of the negative feeling is still there though.

if you were to feel what you are supposed to feel, a long lasting sadness... that would motivate you to do something about the problem itself.

you found a secret shortcut through the forest of emotions.

it won't help.

all emotions are there for a reason.


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