# Question to forum women - how much does this improve my chances?



## DustyDrill (May 20, 2011)

Catenaccio said:


> Is that avatar a pic of yourself?
> 
> If so, I notice you are not obese, and you appear to groom yourself. Does that mean you measure your self-value by your physical appearance?


No, I roll out of bed looking that good.

Your point is somewhat valid. I do groom myself and try to keep from becoming a man-whale, but that's only because I'm more comfortable that way. I imagine being a 600 lb man who doesn't shower or shave would be pretty unpleasant. It's more out of self respect than attraction of the opposite sex.

I don't judge you, I was really into body-building in my late teens to try and pick up women. I kissed my 20" biceps before bed every night. But I grew up and was simply trying to pass on what I learned. Take from it what you will.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Catenaccio said:


> Nope, I just have a *weakness* for beautiful women. Sorry if this bothers you, but really that is not my problem. Each to their own.


It's cleansing to admit to a weakness, isn't it?


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## AussieChick (Dec 27, 2010)

Promethea said:


> Chances are, if _he_ thinks _those things_ are what matters, then he would not be a person that *I* would become interested in one bit. But that's just me. I can't speak for all women, as I am only me.


No it's not only you @Promethea,physical appearance is not what attracts me to guys/girls.It's the whole package,based primarily on personality and attributes such as whether they are kind,caring and considerate ect.A good looking person concerned only with their appearance turns me off to be honest,and they most likely wouldn't be interested in someone like me anyway.


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## ACR (Jan 17, 2011)

knittigan said:


> Nothing sexier than a man who can spell.


Oh nos, I carnt spell. Does it mean I am not seccsy?


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## ACR (Jan 17, 2011)

Catenaccio said:


> I think we can predict the outcome, because a majority of people usually find the same kind of things attractive. Most men are attracted to more feminine attributes, most women are attracted to more masculine attributes. Not only does talking to people confirm this, also many studies show it.
> 
> I think a lot of people misinterpreted the question: I am not saying, take an intellectual guy, replace him with gym-nut, which do you prefer? I am saying, take the same guy, make his physique more athletic without changing his "style", and how does this improve his chances?
> 
> I personally have no doubt that to some extent it does, from my own experiences. However, my question is, how much?


What do you view of androgyny?


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## knittigan (Sep 2, 2011)

ACR said:


> Oh nos, I carnt spell. Does it mean I am not seccsy?


That would seem to be the implication, yes. :wink:


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

Catenaccio said:


> I verified this, and 6kg is about 9lb.


6kg is more like 13lbs. . . or 13.2lbs to be more precise.

I also think it would be hard to gain that much muscle in a month. Have you been tracking your body fat and water weight percentages?



Catenaccio said:


> Basically I have a slimmer face, and my shoulders, chest and arms are now a lot more prominent than my gut. I am quite a tall and broad guy anyway, so I went from broad and slim but not toned, to "toned".
> 
> In terms of style, I would say, smart-casual. a person's impression would be "white collar guy who goes to the gym", not "UFC champ".


I would find that more attractive.
But like someone else said personality > physique


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## Catenaccio (May 2, 2011)

twoofthree said:


> 6kg is more like 13lbs. . . or 13.2lbs to be more precise.
> 
> I also think it would be hard to gain that much muscle in a month. Have you been tracking your body fat and water weight percentages?


Well I have gone up 4kg overall, and I have lost some fat, which makes me think it is muscle. It is possible that water percentage has gone up as I am drinking like 6 litres a day. The truth is I do not know anything about that. 

Also, I have no idea about normal amounts to gain in a month, I was just saying the results I knew. Possibly my scales are wrong. :-S But still, I can tell a very big difference from a month ago.


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## AussieChick (Dec 27, 2010)

ACR said:


> Oh nos, I carnt spell. Does it mean I am not seccsy?


I'm too sexy for my body...too sexy for my body...too sexy

I'm drunk please disregard this post


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## Kr3m1in (Jan 16, 2011)

I agree that personality>phisique, however, to me, more fit means more attractive.
I don't have olympic fitness standards, but the way a person looks tells me about their self-discipline and ability to take care of themselves.

I wouldn't be interested in someone that let themselves go, no matter what kind of personality they have. I would befriend them, but that's about it.
So for me to start caring about personality and know more about it, I've got to like your body.


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## Catenaccio (May 2, 2011)

Kr3m1in said:


> I agree that personality>phisique, however, to me, more fit means more attractive.
> I don't have olympic fitness standards, but the way a person looks tells me about their self-discipline and ability to take care of themselves.
> 
> I wouldn't be interested in someone that let themselves go, no matter what kind of personality they have. I would befriend them, but that's about it.
> So for me to start caring about personality and know more about it, I've got to like your body.


ok, this seems like a more "representative" answer. So how much you would notice a difference between being "toned", and not. i.e I am not talking about a massive change, just, getting a bit more in shape.

Re: personality, yes nobody denied that personality > physique, but like you said, how many guys and girls have a great personality, but are not getting the things they want, due to physique? 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was surprised by the negative reaction to the thread. I am not vain just realistic. In reality I think it is much harsher (and dishonest) to say to someone "the reason s/he chose him/her over you is because s/he has more inherent worth as a human being", than to just say "with some weights an abs maybe you will be more lucky next month".

I think I am being positive: Personality you cannot control much. Some people like you, some do not. Exercise and diet? Yes, you can control that.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Catenaccio said:


> ok, this seems like a more "representative" answer. So how much you would notice a difference between being "toned", and not. i.e I am not talking about a massive change, just, getting a bit more in shape.
> 
> Re: personality, yes nobody denied that personality > physique, but like you said, how many guys and girls have a great personality, but are not getting the things they want, due to physique?
> 
> ...


So in other words you just wanted affirmation rather than input. You should have just said so. I will be the first in the parade to "thank" your OP.


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## Catenaccio (May 2, 2011)

redmanINTP said:


> So in other words you just wanted affirmation rather than input. You should have just said so. I will be the first in the parade to "thank" your OP.


If you look at the title, the question does not lend itself to "affirmation" or "negation", as it asks for a quantitative reply. Come ond ude where is that INTP "logic"...!?

A good thread would have looked like:

Woman A: This increases your chances 20%
Woman B: No, I say only 5%
Woman C: No, 60%
Woman D: No, 30%
Redman INTP:Silence

Then I could have averaged out the replies into a constructive piece of feedback.

*NB: there was never an invitation to discuss the premise of the thread, as both my personal experience, and many, many studies, verify the premise beyond doubt.*

NB2: However, thank you for the Thanks!


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## Zster (Mar 7, 2011)

I'd like to think I am not so superficial as to let mere physical attributes determine my attraction. That said, if the change makes YOU feel good about yourself, more confident, more secure, then yes, I suppose I am more likely to be drawn by THAT. As my idea of a great relationship involves an equal partnership, confidence tends to grab my attention.


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## Catenaccio (May 2, 2011)

Zster said:


> *I'd like to think I am not so superficial as to let mere physical attributes determine my attraction.* That said, if the change makes YOU feel good about yourself, more confident, more secure, then yes, I suppose I am more likely to be drawn by THAT. As my idea of a great relationship involves an equal partnership, confidence tends to grab my attention.


No attraction is only physical, but I do not think it superficial to say that physical attributes are a factor. If this was true, nearly 100% of people are superficial.


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## Kr3m1in (Jan 16, 2011)

Catenaccio said:


> ok, this seems like a more "representative" answer. So how much you would notice a difference between being "toned", and not. i.e I am not talking about a massive change, just, getting a bit more in shape.
> 
> Re: personality, yes nobody denied that personality > physique, but like you said, how many guys and girls have a great personality, but are not getting the things they want, due to physique?
> 
> ...


I would notice the difference. We are animals, we react to phisique, that's just the bloody truth, pretty or not.

I disagree about being unable to control your personality. Sure there are tendencies, some attractive and some not, for each of us, but to say we have no control seems unreasonable.

If someone doesn't look delicious to me, I don't really want to know about personality. And if I do, it's certainly not in a romantic way.


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## Paradox1987 (Oct 9, 2010)

Hmmm, I'm not a woman, but since my bestie is a lass, I have gained insight into the female thought process over the years. Being "in shape" helps you in the "scan the world" moments. Just as it helps lasses get spotted. So you know, you're on the Underground/Subway/Metro, and you see this person in shape and you think, "wow dedication". It doesn't do more than that.

I myself am a wee chubby, with a 34in waist and a bit of a belly. I've worked out that doesn't help or hinder my chances. What does affect my chances are confidence and timing. If I see a girl I think I might like, I go up to her and talk to her. 

Not toned + confident is way more appealing than toned + insecure. So realistically, I'd say it ups your chances by minuscule proportions. Of course, there's all sorts of folk out there so I wouldn't take my opinion as gospel... Physical attraction is way more important to some people. My bestie goes for emotional attraction; and I myself need intellectual attraction over and above physical attraction. So it all really depends on who you meet on any given day and their preferences.


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## Erbse (Oct 15, 2010)

Catenaccio said:


> Woman A: This increases your chances 20%
> Woman B: No, I say only 5%
> Woman C: No, 60%
> Woman D: No, 30%
> Redman INTP:Silence


Hm, I do not believe roboter women are interested in physique at all. Meaning your chances didn't shift and are generally as great as they were before, with robots that is.


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## Tommy (Nov 25, 2009)

As a guy I'm more attracted to structured beautiful girls compared to girls who don't give a shit about stuff. I know these are poles, and after my own observations, it looks like confidence and natural handsomeness ups your chances more than self-discipline in our western society. Girls don't ever say anything to me about me though, so I don't really know. Maybe you should ask friends of yours, like female friends. 

I think it depends on the culture/personality of the people you are targetting.


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## Catenaccio (May 2, 2011)

Erbse said:


> Hm, I do not believe roboter women are interested in physique at all. Meaning your chances didn't shift and are generally as great as they were before, with robots that is.


It was an exaggeration in order to clarify.

I found your comment amusing.


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## mrscientist (Jul 4, 2010)

Promethea said:


> Chances are, if _he_ thinks _those things_ are what matters, then he would not be a person that *I* would become interested in one bit. But that's just me. I can't speak for all women, as I am only me.


I know this is your opinion, and i am an idealist at heart. But people initiate relationships with opposite genders by looks initially i'd say.


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## Ann Kane (Sep 30, 2011)

gurlygurl said:


> A lot of a guy's physical attraction to me comes through his face, personality and mannerisms. . . However, I do care if he's healthy or not. Obese or several pounds over weight is a turn off. . . while a few pounds over weight is ok. . . I can probably take up to about twenty pounds overweight. The reason being, it shows that he has reasonable self-control. A lack of self-control in your dieting and exercise IS usually going to be a turnoff to a girl.
> 
> Also most of my "attraction" comes from the guys brain. [As weird as that sounds. . . =P] I have a huge attraction to nerds. They make me happy. I can debate with them all day, and read medical books with them at night and they never complain. =D
> 
> I've known a few guys that weren't nerds that got mad when they realized that the nerd type was the only type that I could ever seriously go for. . . . too bad for them. They may have been attractive, but I like my brilliant men. =)


this sounds like a description of me. I love nerds too. 

But I dont like guys with guts, who are not actively and seriously working on getting rid of them. For the same reason you mentioned. Self control. Our bodies are IMPORTANT, people. We live in them. We take them with us everywhere. 

I'm not talking about a bit of pudge. I"m talking a significant A shape. When your middle is broader than your shoulders, thumbs DOWN! It bugs. If a guy is skinny and has little in the way of muscle, i'll still find that more attractive. Guys dont have good distribution of weight like a lot of women do. When guys gain weight, it often goes RIGHT to their gut, and no where else. thats unfortunate for them. but thats no excuse. 

I was in a physically abusive relationship, pretty much about as low as I'd ever been, and was unhappy with my level of fitness. So you know what i did? I freaking did something about it. "do or do not. there is no try." 

there is a guy i know that is artistic and our personalities click but i'm turned off by the fact that he's overweight and doesn't seem to be on any kind of fitness plan. Or even have a fitness goal. Its the "i dont have to improve this" attitude that irritates me. Or "I dont really like it but damned if i'm going to work up the motivation to take action". hello! As i said. You have to LIVE in these bodies. Its the only one you got. you dont have to be perfectly sculpted. You dont even have to be muscular. Just within a healthy range of body fat. or at least making progress. 

One exception. I've met one guy recently that has a gut and i still think he's cute though. Only exception i can think of. He's quirky and has a different look. Would i take him seriously? no idea. Only guy i've noticed, and continued to notice, after i noticed said gut.

I like larger noses, big ears, odd features, quirky features, unique features...skinny, muscular, shorter, taller, you name it. And think they're attractive FOR those features. there are things you have control over, and things you don't. May as well take control of things you have control of.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

mrscientist said:


> I know this is your opinion, and i am an idealist at heart. But people initiate relationships with opposite genders by looks initially i'd say.


well thats just like, your opinion man


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## sts06 (Aug 12, 2010)

mrscientist said:


> I know this is your opinion, and i am an idealist at heart. But people initiate relationships with opposite genders by looks initially i'd say.


You know, this is true, but I'd never go for a guy with muscles and all that. Those aren't looks that attract me - I'm attracted by skinny guys who look a bit nerdy. So, yeah we may initiate on looks, but the same looks aren't going to appeal to all people.


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## Catenaccio (May 2, 2011)

Promethea said:


> well thats just like, your opinion man


I think it is a very well-founded opinion, backed up by my lived experience, through what most people report about themselves, and studies.

I do not doubt you are honest if you say this is not the case with you, but I think there is a large burden of proof on you if you want to argue that these claims are not true for most people.


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## mrscientist (Jul 4, 2010)

Promethea said:


> well thats just like, your opinion man


Really now? I thought my words are indisputable facts. Thank you for setting me straight


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## Eerie (Feb 9, 2011)

mrscientist said:


> I know this is your opinion, and i am an idealist at heart. But people initiate relationships with opposite genders by looks initially i'd say.


I fell for my boyfriend without knowing what he looked like. So, no not really. Everyone _is_ different.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Ann Kane said:


> There's something to be said for the amount of SELF -DISCIPLINE it takes to accomplish a difficult task. Whether its a mental or physical activity. I think he deserves respect for accomplishing something that an astounding number of people in America dont even ATTEMPT. (And always cap on people that do)


Oh good! Shall I post all of the things that I'm disciplined about so that I can start a circle jerk about me too? Awesome! Here goes . . .

I like to brush my teeth at least twice per day, once in the morning when I wake up, and once right before bed time. If I have a midday meal that might affect my breath (and frankly remember, because typically I'm at work) then I'll brush then too. And then (get ready, get ready), I rinse with mouthwash!!!!

So ladies, do you think this improves my chances?


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## Catenaccio (May 2, 2011)

redmanXNTP said:


> Oh good! Shall I post all of the things that I'm disciplined about


If you did, I wouldn't troll it.

I think you are reading too much into the thread, it is just a straight question, not an attack on you or anyone else. If you are not interested in the issue, no need to read/reply. Don't you have something better to do than read threads about issues you aren't interested in?


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Catenaccio said:


> I think it is a very well-founded opinion, backed up by my lived experience, through what most people report about themselves, and studies.
> 
> I do not doubt you are honest if you say this is not the case with you, but I think there is a large burden of proof on you if you want to argue that these claims are not true for most people.


Believe what you want.


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

Eerie said:


> I fell for my boyfriend without knowing what he looked like. So, no not really. Everyone _is_ different.


And this is even more important because that's a picture of me in her signature. <3333333333


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## Catenaccio (May 2, 2011)

Promethea said:


> Believe what you want.


I would like to believe something else, obviously...but I don't think it's realistic.


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## Eerie (Feb 9, 2011)

Catenaccio said:


> I would like to believe something else, obviously...but I don't think it's realistic.


Do you think that people with opinions like hers, and even mine are just making it up? I mean really. "Realistic" in this case obviously means shallow. And that's sad.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Catenaccio said:


> I would like to believe something else, obviously...but I don't think it's realistic.


Its commonly accepted that sexual attraction/romantic love, when tied in together consist of three parts. Before I continue, I'm going to say that I have seen some strange exceptions to this, but that most people I have studied do seem to pretty much fit this to some extent. I'm not saying its entirely "natural" (I think that society affects these things to such an extent that its impossible to even separate clearly, the biological factors, and the societal influence.)

1. The purely physical attraction stage influenced by what a person's physical preferences are: This is visual, and affects testosterone in both men, and women. This is the stage (usually the first stage but I have seen it as the second stage for some, working back from 2.) and component (these things are tied in together also). A variety of things shape what a person is visually/physically stimulated by initially. To put it very simply, its the type of attraction you could feel if someone were to lay 20 photos of various strangers in front of you and ask which is most sexy. 

2. The infatuation phase: This is where personality and feelings and all of that comes into play. It affects a person's brain chemistry: norepinephrine, dopamine etc.. Its the stage where you feel a little head rush even by looking at the face of the object of your desire (though its not the same as the purely physical attraction, you feel physically compelled because of the association you now have between that person, and the loopy flitterpatted feeling). 
(*Before, I said that it seems some people experience this, before stage 1. I am an example fortunately, so I'll use myself to explain: I really don't have physical preferences, in that I don't even pay attention to/or care about what someone looks like until they have endeared themselves to me in this infatuation phase, then suddenly I start to associate their physical being with something positive. But, I'm a rare exception, and others typically experience 1. first.)

3. This is after people have been intimate for a while, and oxytocin comes into play. Its the human bonding hormone. It raises during intimacy and touching between partners - and mostly during orgasm. This bond is strongest when couples engage in sex regularly.

For me, and for many others, the infatuation phase can develop before the visual-lust phase -- and well in my case, it flat-out does develop before it. I don't give a rats arse what shapes and colors make up someones physical form before theres some emotion attached to it from a connection or admiration of their personality. Why would I? And I only date other people who are this way, because it doesn't feel as special, or balanced, if they work in reverse, getting stimulation outside of the relationship in a shallow way. So, you want to believe that it exists, sure.. but which are you? I would think that you are like the normal person who goes through stage 1. where its visual first, so you might want to pair up with someone else who is that way too. I believe that this ties into what one's definition of loyalty is, and that both partners need to share that outlook, whatever that outlook may be.


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## Catenaccio (May 2, 2011)

Eerie said:


> Do you think that people with opinions like hers, and even mine are just making it up? I mean really. "Realistic" in this case obviously means shallow. And that's sad.


I don't believe I am shallow. I used to believe in true love but not any more (for the moment anyways). Now I just am chilling out and not believing in anyone. I will stop now before I get too emo. 












Promethea said:


> Its commonly accepted that sexual attraction/romantic love, when tied in together consist of three parts. Before I continue, I'm going to say that I have seen some strange exceptions to this, but that most people I have studied do seem to pretty much fit this to some extent. I'm not saying its entirely "natural" (I think that society affects these things to such an extent that its impossible to even separate clearly, the biological factors, and the societal influence.)
> 
> 1. The purely physical attraction stage influenced by what a person's physical preferences are: This is visual, and affects testosterone in both men, and women. This is the stage (usually the first stage but I have seen it as the second stage for some, working back from 2.) and component (these things are tied in together also). A variety of things shape what a person is visually/physically stimulated by initially. To put it very simply, its the type of attraction you could feel if someone were to lay 20 photos of various strangers in front of you and ask which is most sexy.
> 
> ...


This sounds like a believable explanation.

I do not know why you were arguing with me though, because nothing I said before, contradicts your above view.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Catenaccio said:


> I don't believe I am shallow. I used to believe in true love but not any more (for the moment anyways). Now I just am chilling out and not believing in anyone. I will stop now before I get too emo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You said that you find my view hard to believe, which made me think perhaps you had not experienced it for yourself, or you could easily believe it.


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## Catenaccio (May 2, 2011)

Promethea said:


> You said that you find my view hard to believe, which made me think perhaps you had not experienced it for yourself, or you could easily believe it.


I said I found it hard to believe that this was the case for the majority. We were always talking about the majority. If you read the thread I always said that obviously my claims could not be true for 100% of people.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Catenaccio said:


> I said I found it hard to believe that this was the case for the majority. We were always talking about the majority. If you read the thread I always said that obviously my claims could not be true for 100% of people.


Yeah, well I started out sharing my opinion and saying that not everyone is going to share it. Whats the point in overlooking exceptions.


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## Eerie (Feb 9, 2011)

Catenaccio said:


> I don't believe I am shallow. I used to believe in true love but not any more (for the moment anyways). Now I just am chilling out and not believing in anyone. I will stop now before I get too emo.


It's ok, I didn't call _you_ shallow. :tongue:


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## Catenaccio (May 2, 2011)

Promethea said:


> Yeah, well I started out sharing my opinion and saying that not everyone is going to share it. Whats the point in overlooking exceptions.


Fair enough.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Catenaccio said:


> If you did, I wouldn't troll it.
> 
> I think you are reading too much into the thread, it is just a straight question, not an attack on you or anyone else. If you are not interested in the issue, no need to read/reply. Don't you have something better to do than read threads about issues you aren't interested in?


I neglected to add that I increased the shine on my teeth by 6 lumens in just one month! Should I put lots of smile pics into my profile? If so, I'll take some tips on how to cut down glare while still showing off my shine.


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## Ann Kane (Sep 30, 2011)

redmanXNTP said:


> Oh good! Shall I post all of the things that I'm disciplined about so that I can start a circle jerk about me too? Awesome! Here goes . . .
> 
> I like to brush my teeth at least twice per day, once in the morning when I wake up, and once right before bed time. If I have a midday meal that might affect my breath (and frankly remember, because typically I'm at work) then I'll brush then too. And then (get ready, get ready), I rinse with mouthwash!!!!
> 
> So ladies, do you think this improves my chances?


As opposed to having bad oral hygiene? Yes.


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## Catenaccio (May 2, 2011)

Ann Kane said:


> I"m assuming they must be beautiful women with intelligence as well? I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting a woman who is aattractive, healthy, and takes care of herself. Honestly our bodies are important. We have to exist in them, we may as well take good care of them! People get so self righteous about this kind of stuff.
> 
> What do you mean by beautiful though? I mean, are you dogmatic about particulars; body type, hair color, style...i mean a variety of things are beautiful. Assuming a woman maintains low body fat, dresses decently, proper hygeine/grooming, and develops her own sense of style/aesthetics, are you particular about "she must look a certain way", or do you appreciate variety, and see beauty in non-typical features? I'm talking genetics. things we can't change without surgery. I dont think its superficial to wnat someone that takes good care of themselves. Superficial if you're particular, like, "her eyebrows are too thick!"


Ann - I thought about this post a little, you made some good contributions which deserved a thought response.

When I say beautiful obviously I know this is subjective. Personally I can like a wide range of attributes, but one thing very important to me is curves, tanned, healthy looking, feminine face (eg big innocent eyes, maybe prominent cheeks/lips).

This is funny because I am tall, blond, slim, lol. But this is because I'm from a Latin family and I guess I grew up with a love for Latin style of women. If I could think of the most ideal, in just physical terms, girl I have ever seen IMO, here (I chose a none-revealing photo so it is not the most sexy photo of her)










http://www.planetafotos.com/galerias/d/117786-2/Zaira-Nara-028.jpg

Of course I like a wide range but this was just to illustrate the most ideal features IMO. Many other men go for the blond/tall/thin as their ideal, but not so much in my case.


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## Eerie (Feb 9, 2011)

I'm weirded out by people who have physical types.... and no that looks exactly what "most men" go for.


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## Quinlan (Apr 18, 2011)

I think you'll find women will be more attracted to you (Source).


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## Catenaccio (May 2, 2011)

Eerie said:


> I'm weirded out by people who have physical types....


So if a guy tells you you're attractive does it weird you out?

I am not arguing, it is just out of interest.


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## Eerie (Feb 9, 2011)

Catenaccio said:


> So if a guy tells you you're attractive does it weird you out?
> 
> I am not arguing, it is just out of interest.


If a guy out of no where tells me I'm attractive I really don't pay attention to it. There's more to me than my body, and I want recognition for all of it. Usually if a man compliments me it's some sort of insult anyways. "I like fat girls!" "you have a pretty face!"


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## Catenaccio (May 2, 2011)

Hmm maybe most American guys don't have a great ability to compliment girls. That was my experience form going drinking with Americans anyway.

Anyway I respect you saying my post wierded you out, most guys are perverts to be honest  ...it doesn't mean we feel good about it or that we would ultimately fall in love with a girl primarily for looks. That is not the case, when I was in love with a girl it wasn't because of her looks. 

But yeah I guess it is not ideal to have a physical type, but I can't deny it, like everyone I have a good and bad side.


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## louea380 (Dec 5, 2010)

Catenaccio said:


> how many guys and girls have a great personality, but are not getting the things they want, due to physique?


None. If you have a great personality (with average attractiveness) beautiful women will be attracted to you. Period. It just so happens that the more attractive you think you are, the greater your personality will be. That doesn't mean you can't improve your personality without improving your physique; it means you have to realise that you thinking you need to change your appearance to attract hot women is the thing making you less attractive. In fact I'd go as far to say that the attractiveness you're loosing by having this mindset is much greater than the attractiveness you'd gain by improving your physique. This does not mean you should not try to improve your physique, it just means you need to change your mindset.

You say you are being positive. Well you arn't my friend!! You're being insecure and its is a turn-off.
You believe you aren't good enough. When you choose to stop believing this your attractiveness will soar. In order to feel secure enough to stop believing this crap you need to gain reference experiences. Ie. Experiences to allow you to realise that you are attractive enough just the way you are. This is done by dating women you find attractive and putting your best self forward. Initially, you might not do so well--you might doubt yourself--but eventually your'll get a positive response and your'll have an epiphany where you realise that your current paradigm doesn't work.

My advice to you-- Get dating first and foremost. Ignore thoughts that tell you you need to be more attractive. This is all ego. Ego is unattractive. Build on your body if you want (because you want to do it for yourself)-- this might temporarily improve your chances due to an increase in confidence, but it won't be permanent unless you plan on body building for the rest of your life.

If you carry on thinking the way you are now what happens when you quit the gym and loose all your muscle? What will you do then? Your'll just go back to your current self of feeling inadequate and your attractiveness will plummet. 

Really bulking up adds absolutely nothing unless you have the inner confidence to go with it. If you have both then it adds a lot, but it would still be much more beneficial to make a small improvement in personality than a small improvement in looks, providing you are not ugly. Trust me.


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## louea380 (Dec 5, 2010)

mrscientist said:


> I know this is your opinion, and i am an idealist at heart. But people initiate relationships with opposite genders by looks initially i'd say.


But once contact is initiated if the other person lacks confidence due to insecurity regarding looks, that person will not come across as attractive. Since the OP demonstrates insecurity by asking this question, although he might get initial attraction due to his new found good looks, this will soon dissipate when the person he's interacting with realises his underlying attitude. 

Looks only really add something if a person is secure in themselves which the OP is not.


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## Catenaccio (May 2, 2011)

@louea380 - I wanted to thank your first post because it was an interesting perspective - not because I agree necessarilly - but for some reason it is not letting me thank posts. :-s

Regarding your second post, I do not see why the OP implies insecurity. Objective self-assessment and asking for objective feedback =/= insecurity IMO. I think other people are projecting that they see this as a very "personal" issue to talk about. To me, it is not, it is just a normal thing to talk about. :-S

I also notice you assumed a lot of other things, but I will leave them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*ON the issue of secure/insecure: *I know a lot of insecure guys who do very well with women. What you maybe mean is looking "nervous" or "self-conscious" which is not the same as being insecure. Many people are very insecure inside but _appear_ very confident.

In answer to this, yes I have before faked "extreme confidence" and yes it plays very well with girls, but to be honest, I would rather be myself. 

I don't either think I'm great or terrible. I am just a person who is always looking to improve. I do not think this insecure I just think it means I can look in the mirror and say _"yes I am not Donald Trump in my career and I am not Brad Pitt in my looks, but I am not bottom of the league either. I am in the X percentile and can have x success. And if I do y I can improve by z%"_


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## louea380 (Dec 5, 2010)

Catenaccio said:


> Regarding your second post, I do not see why the OP implies insecurity. Objective self-assessment and asking for objective feedback =/= insecurity IMO. I think other people are projecting that they see this as a very "personal" issue to talk about. To me, it is not, it is just a normal thing to talk about. :-S
> 
> I also notice you assumed a lot of other things, but I will leave them.
> 
> ...


If the question was being asked in order to improve ones own body then I wouldn't have judged it as insecurity. However, since the question was being asked in order "to become good enough" to attract highly attractive women, this implies that one must not think they are "good enough" right now. The problem with this way of thinking is you're putting yourself in subordinate position to girls you view as too good for you. True confidence comes when you realise that you're good enough right now and this is what girls are attracted to.

Being nervous or self-conscious is exactly the same as being insecure. Some people cover their insecurity with a false self (ie your mates) and some people just accept how they're feeling in that moment and won't repress their emotions. This will come off as feeling nervous or self-conscious. Think about it. If i'm chatting to a hot girl and i feel nervous, i must believe i'm being threatened. The only reason for feeling this would be because of a fear of rejection= insecurity. Likewise, if i'm getting self-conscious i'm censoring what i'm saying in order to avoid the feeling of shame= insecurity. 

Your mates may do very well with women but if they're insecure they won't have healthy lasting relationships (depending on the degree). They relate to women by putting on a false self and guess what...women will respond to this...but later down the line the true self will show and things will start to get messy. Even if they're looking for casual sex their ego will just want more and more and more until they realise underneath it all, they're not even happy. 

A truly attractive man is authentic and 100% self assured. He doesn't put a front--he doesn't need to-- he has full self control of inner impulses and does everything with a sense of purpose. 

"yes I am not Donald Trump in my career and I am not Brad Pitt in my looks, but I am not bottom of the league either. I am in the X percentile and can have x success. And if I do y I can improve by z%"-- This quote is the exact problem and indicates insecurity. You're comparing yourself to other people which would be unnecessary if you were a secure person. I'm not saying i'm perfect, but i'm stating the ideal you should be working towards if you want to become more attractive. There is absolutely no need to think of your self-worth in terms of the "percentile" that i'm in or "me being better than him but below her". This is the habit that is preventing you from being attractive which is already who you are. Being attractive is a default state.


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## Catenaccio (May 2, 2011)

@louea380 

That's an interesting philosophy. I can see the logic to it, I guess I just don't believe it. Probably we just have different views on human nature.

But genuinely, thanks for a well-written and intelligent post. ;-)

PS it is still not letting me Thank your first post, did you piss off some admin or something?


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

Catenaccio said:


> Basically I just finally last month, got some more money and stabilized my living situation, meaning I could start working out again after 6 months without.
> 
> In one month I went from 84kg to 88kg, having lost fat on the gut, which I put on as muscle.
> 
> The question is, take the same guy, take away fat, put on 6kg of muscle, how much does it improve his initial chances of you noticing him?


I admit I haven't perused the whole thread, so this may have been said already...

First, I am going to skip the PC, "I'm not that shallow" answer & start with something more direct, which is what I think you want.

In terms of sheer aesthetics, yes, this will likely improve your chances a bit. It may not even be conscious for many women, but more will likely respond to you on a purely physical level if you have less gut & more muscle. Now, there are outliers of course when it comes to taste, but in terms of numbers, you'll probably do better. Many of us women may find skinny guys & love handles endearing, but the same women may also be just as drawn to an athletic physique, and if hard-pressed, might say that is closer to an "ideal".

Personally, not that I don't notice beauty, but I'm more of a "vibe" kind of girl. However, these changes could affect that also. The most significant difference, from my perspective, is that you've made life changes which seem to affect how you feel about yourself (both the stabilized living/money situation & getting fit). In short, when you feel better about yourself, that will come through in your demeanor. I don't even know if "confidence" is really the word to sum it up best (it's too often confused with arrogance); but if it's a more positive feeling as a result of self-improvement, then that will attract _people_ in general. Just don't lose humility (which is definitely not the same as insecurity).

I also agree to stop measuring yourself so much against others & setting goals in relation to their supposed success. Work out because it's good for YOU, not just to reach some end goal of attracting a woman. In short, don't limit this self-improvement to the external. You'll have the best results, both internally & with others, if these changes penetrate you mentally/emotionally in a positive way, not just your appearance.


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## Catenaccio (May 2, 2011)

OrangeAppled said:


> I admit I haven't perused the whole thread, so this may have been said already...
> 
> First, I am going to skip the PC, "I'm not that shallow" answer & start with something more direct, which is what I think you want.
> 
> ...


Thank you, this was a good post!


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