# To the "other women" of married men



## curious0610 (Jun 27, 2010)

For the ladies - Has anyone ever been the "other woman"? If so, what was it like? And do you know why he was having something on the side with you? I mean, was it because their marriage was having problems, or he wasn't happy, or because he was in some way unsatisfied with his wife? What was his wife like? 

For the men - if any of you have been married, and had something else going on the side. Could I ask why? Was it the novelty of someone new? Is it because it made you feel young, wanted and attractive again? Is there a certain type of women you tend to pursue as the "other woman"?

Discussion welcome to other questions, just curious to hear your thoughts on this.


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## Finaille (Aug 8, 2010)

I have been the 'other woman' and now I feel like a horses behind.

Keep in mind this was a few years ago... but he completely took advantage of my better nature when all along I actually viewed him as a father figure and caring friend. I don't know what his rationalize was with having me as his other woman... it might have been because I was nice to him, he wanted sexual activity he wasn't getting at home, I was pretty and younger, I don't know... all I know is he lied his butt off to me and emotionally manipulated me to stay in a situation I was not comfortable with. When I told him I was done, he would call me, text me, anything to tell me how he was going to kill himself without me. 

I know his wife was busy with their kids; he had five of them (ironically, all of which were closer to my age than he was to me). She was naggy with him and paranoid (though, rightly so...). I feel terrible about what I did to her and did send her an apology letter. I know while he manipulated me, I still made the conscious choice to go ahead. I wasn't thinking clearly and I was stupid- plain and simple. 

My current fiance knows what happened (we all worked at the same place). I'm glad he was able to see this guy's manipulations, as my fiance was one of my good friends and only people who knew what was going on. His friendship and family were big supporters and helpers for getting me out of that situation  I am forever grateful. Damn men who take advantage of emotionally hurt women!!


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## tissa (Nov 22, 2011)

I was another woman years back. What it felt like? Well i felt hopeful coz he kept lying to me that he will get a divorce and will be with me. Well now that i think back I think he did it coz he could. Not coz he did not love his wife or was ever gonna leave her. He just needed to boost his self esteem and fuck a girl who was much younger than his wife and was beautiful and so he could tell his friends about it and make himself feel good. Another lessor i learned was when she found out and she found out who i was and one night him and her both came to a restaurant where i worked and she cried...and he got drunk...she left. He stayed. He talked to me. She came back to check on him and see when if ever he was gonna leave and she saw us both talking. She already knew at that time. He "introduced" us to each other and i fels so shameful as never in my life and i could physically feel her pain. That is when i realized how hard it must have been for her and that i do not EVER wish anyone to be in her shoes and that it could have been me. And i decided that NEVER ever i will mess around with someone who is married or in a relationship. And i have kept my word since and intend to do so for the rest of my life.

We do not want our partners to cheat on us, but somehow we allow ourselves to be that "other" woman or a man. Such hypocrites!


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## AussieChick (Dec 27, 2010)

You are going to think that I am a whore,but I have been the other woman a total of 4 times,and you may think me stupid as well because it took me a while to find out that I was the other woman in all 4 instances.They were players and wanted something that their SO's wouldn't or couldn't give them.And I was very vulnerable and naive at the time.I hate myself for being such a slut. Well I am going to summarise it to make it easier to understand.

1-I was 23,he was my first lover and aged 30.He was a merchant seaman from another country (Philippines),and we went out on a blind date set up by a work colleague.We had sex that first night as the connection between us was electric.We dated off and on for 6 months and he gave me a number to call him when he was home.He said it was his sister,and we even became unofficially engaged and I was trying to get pregnant.Then he had to go back home for a year and he said that he would marry me when he got back.I heard from him for a few months then nothing.I started to think that he was messing with me and that he was married.I must say that I was terribly naive back then.There also happened to be a natural disaster (floods)in the region where he lived in the Philippines.I thought perhaps something had happened to him whilst he was there.But I googled his name a few years ago and got a match,but was uncertain if it was him.

2- I had been separated from my husband for 9 years and never slept with anyone else.A guy I had known for 10 years (9 years older)and occasionally had coffee with told me that he had fallen in love with me and that he had split up from his fiancee(20 years his junior).I was alarmed but thought that I had asked all the right questions before I started seeing him.Needless to say 3 months down the track I got a call from said ex fiancee,they were still very much engaged and still are.He had lied to both of us,and I gave him his marching orders then and there.

3- One night stand with someone half my age.Very silly of me,but we had met on facebook and he befriended me.We went out on a date then he became very evasive.One day whilst in the supermarket I got a call from a woman asking if I knew this guy.I said yes what business was it of hers.She replied that she was his wife.OMG!!!!! was I shocked.I told her that I had no idea that he was married.She asked if we had slept together and being an honest person I said yes.Next thing he calls me asking me to call her back and say that we had never met,that it was a case of mistaken identity.I told him to deal with her himself and hung up.

4- I met a guy on an online dating site.He looked familiar but I couldn't remember where I had seen him.We started dating and he treated me like a queen.Several months later,I realised where I knew him from.I had been friends with his wife,we went to the same church.He didn't go much and I had never been formally introduced to him.He had lied to me about everything (his age,surname,marital status,where he lived,told me he had no kids ect )Only thing he didn't lie about was his first name,where he worked and that he was Greek.He wanted a sexual act that his wife would not give him and thought that if he told the truth I would not go out with him.He got that right.

I must say that apart from number 1 I dumped all the guys as soon as I discovered that they were married/engaged.I am now in a relationship with another guy I met on a dating site and he was honest with me after I told him that if he was married or engaged then nothing would happen between us.He said that guys who do that to a woman are nothing but scum and assured me that he was not that kind.Well I have been to his place and he is definitely a man of his word.His place is very much the bachelor pad he described to me.


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## knittigan (Sep 2, 2011)

My ex was married, though I didn't know it when we got together. He told me he and his wife were divorced -- it turned out that they were separated, living in different cities, and beginning divorce proceedings (still legally married) for the majority of our relationship. They reconciled toward the end and there was a month and a half overlap where he was trying to make his marriage work, realising that he was still unhappy with her and not wanting to let me go. 

There was infidelity in my parents' marriage and when I found out that I was the "other woman," I was physically sick. I ended up developing bulimia as a way of coping with how out of control my world was and over a period of approximately 6 weeks, I lost over 20 lbs. 

I don't know how to put into words the immense amount of guilt and shame I still feel over what I have done, over nine months after we ended it. It broke my heart that she would never know me as anything other than the 19 year old tramp who slept with her husband. It still does. 

After his wife found out about me, there was a period of approximately a month or so where the three of us tried to negotiate things. When she realised that I didn't know he was married, she was initially very, very civil to me. I don't think that anyone could have faked my reaction. I explained to her what I was going through and that I would never, ever be able to get over what he did. I was done. I didn't want anything else to do with him. I told her about my parents. I promised her that I would have nothing to do with him. It was very important to me that she understand that I wasn't "that kind of person."

Eventually, though, as things progressed, he came clean to her about the fact that he had very real feelings for me and that was when things blew up. She attacked me and I let her do it over and over because I didn't feel like I had the right to deny her anything. I was absolutely heartbroken. When he found out that she was hurting me, he lost it; it wasn't my fault that he lied to me and their issues should have remained between them since they had nothing to do with me. The two of them got into an enormous fight and he ended up moving back out and trying to salvage things with me and there was a period of about a week or so where I desperately wanted him to choose me over her. I don't know if I'll ever be able to forgive myself for that.

From what I've pieced together (oddly, once things were out in the open, they both confided to me about what had been going on in their marriage), they were having some pretty intense marital problems. They had both just finished grad school/medical school and were really struggling to make ends meet financially. In particular, she was having trouble finding work. He told me that emotionally, he had "checked out" of their marriage a long time ago. He felt like they had gotten together too young, before they ever had a chance to really figure out who they were. He never wanted to get married but caved in order to make their families happy. On a very real level, they didn't have a lot in common: she was an ESFJ (of the very worst sort), he was an ISTP (quite a typical one). From what he shared with me about his "ex" wife, he felt stifled by her. He disliked that she was emotionally manipulative and controlling. He felt like she nagged him. He thought that she was materialistic and obsessed with status. He had cheated on her before, back when they were in college. In our conversations after I found out, he really emphasised that there was something fundamental (for him) that was missing in their relationship (that wasn't missing in ours) and that he seriously doubted that she was capable of giving him (that I gave him without even thinking twice about it).

What I learned from the whole experience is that it's really difficult to see the world in binary terms of good/bad, black/white. Sometimes good people do really, really horrible things and I think it's very rare to find someone who is an inherently bad person, through and through.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

I haven't been that I'm aware of, but who knows.. I could have been and not known it. These shits are good liars. Heh.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Ozziechick1966 said:


> You are going to think that I am a whore,but I have been the other woman a total of 4 times,and you may think me stupid as well because it took me a while to find out that I was the other woman in all 4 instances.They were players and wanted something that their SO's wouldn't or couldn't give them.And I was very vulnerable and naive at the time.I hate myself for being such a slut. Well I am going to summarise it to make it easier to understand.
> 
> 1-I was 23,he was my first lover and aged 30.He was a merchant seaman from another country (Philippines),and we went out on a blind date set up by a work colleague.We had sex that first night as the connection between us was electric.We dated off and on for 6 months and he gave me a number to call him when he was home.He said it was his sister,and we even became unofficially engaged and I was trying to get pregnant.Then he had to go back home for a year and he said that he would marry me when he got back.I heard from him for a few months then nothing.I started to think that he was messing with me and that he was married.I must say that I was terribly naive back then.There also happened to be a natural disaster (floods)in the region where he lived in the Philippines.I thought perhaps something had happened to him whilst he was there.But I googled his name a few years ago and got a match,but was uncertain if it was him.
> 
> ...


You aren't a ho. : P
Everyone has their own rough collection of learning experiences, and now you can share what you have learned to help others with this one. I think it says good things about your character that you are willing to do that.


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## AussieChick (Dec 27, 2010)

@knittigan thanks for sharing your story:
You have nothing to feel ashamed about,your ex was separated at the time,although he should have been upfront with you the moment you two got together.His wife had no right to attack you as you weren't the reason for their breakup,although she quite possibly had a reason to be angry and upset.But she should have directed her feelings towards her husband instead of hurting and humiliating you.


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

I've slept with a married man. . . but I wouldn't call myself 'the other woman'.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

twoofthree said:


> I've slept with a married man. . . but I wouldn't call myself 'the other woman'.


What's the distinction you draw between the two?


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

redmanXNTP said:


> What's the distinction you draw between the two?


It was a one-off, rather than an ongoing thing.


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## Cover3 (Feb 2, 2011)

5 out of 7, holy sheez


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## Finaille (Aug 8, 2010)

twoofthree said:


> speak for yourself.
> 
> so you're going to start flinging around derogatory terms just like that?
> 
> you are in no position to judge me.


I would have to agree here. She didn't really state what happened and it may not have been her fault; there are plenty of married guys who lurk in places and hide their rings. And even if she knew about it, it sounds like she had the smarts not to continue.

Could be a million reasons. But if these threads exist, we shouldn't interrogate or make others feel bad. Some women stuck in these situations need a lot of help, encouragement, and support.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

twoofthree said:


> It was a one-off, rather than an ongoing thing.


Did you know he was married at the time? What led to it?


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Cover3 said:


> 5 out of 7, holy sheez


Not exactly a scientific survey, though I've heard stats up as high as those saying around 70% of marriages involve one or both partners being unfaithful.


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## Mulberries (Feb 17, 2011)

I've never actually slept with a married man, but I've had many try to sleep with me. I seem to attract them like flies. Luckily I'm good at figuring out when there's something not quite right and I've been able escape before anything happens. 

That's not to say I have an entirely clean past. I did have a sexual relationship with an attached man who was in a position of power over me. He was in a long-term relationship with a brilliant, kind, beautiful woman and I knew about it. At the time I was highly depressed and heartbroken and he was forcefully persistent with me. This all went on for about 6 months. My guess is he did it because it was in his nature. He was an attractive, wealthy, powerful, domineering ESTP. I don't think he had a single bit of regret. Meanwhile, years later I still carry extraordinary guilt and shame. I have no idea whether they're still together, but I still get emails from him wanting me to visit him.


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## Smile (Nov 29, 2011)

No that is one mistake I would never make. That is just a no brainer. You are going to get hurt, and you are going to hurt some other innocent woman. Find a single man.


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## AussieChick (Dec 27, 2010)

2- I had been separated from my husband for 9 years and never slept with anyone else.A guy I had known for 10 years (9 years older)and occasionally had coffee with told me that he had fallen in love with me and that he had split up from his fiancee(20 years his junior).I was alarmed but thought that I had asked all the right questions before I started seeing him.Needless to say 3 months down the track I got a call from said ex fiancee,they were still very much engaged and still are.He had lied to both of us,and I gave him his marching orders then and there.


Funny,I forgot to mention that a few months later,this engaged guy got on the bus and there was only one seat available.You guessed, it was next to me.He told me that things were still not going well with his fiancee.And he tried to chat me up again.I told him that I had a boyfriend although at the time I was just chatting to my current partner on the internet.Well yesterday whilst doing some Christmas shopping I again crossed paths with this loser.He said hello and I was civil to him.He then asked if I was still with my boyfriend,to which I replied "yes and it is going very well with him thank you".He said that he and his fiancee had definitely split this time,and he had been hoping that we could get back together.In my head I thought to myself "Yeah when hell freezes over".He asked if I wanted to go have a coffee with him (his treat) but I politely declined.According to him his fiancee had been cheating on him whilst he was with me.She is supposedly now pregnant,but he has had a vasectomy.So I suspect it could be true,that she slept with another man.But I really can't believe all that this guy says,because he has lied to me in the past.Call it Karma come back around to bite him on the backside or what!!!!


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## theatrical blood (Nov 29, 2011)

Not really since I went on a date(s) with a much older married man although nothing sexual happened. I don't think I'd make a good mistress anyway. 

It's not an ideal situation and would advice a woman who might end up being the mistress against this especially if she's in some fragile or vulnerable time in her life which means she be can be taken advantage of or if she's attached emotionally to the man. If the other women is only interested in sex or 'benefits' and no future relationship with the man then this set up might leave the women in an ok position after the affair and that's if her reputation isn't wrecked if the news gets out. 

Married men always seem to come up with the same kind of sad tales of being married. I'm sure we heard them before. He's unhappy, he's bored, he's alone, he wants to be single but not really since he wants to remain married, his wife isn't attractive to him anymore, she's mean, she's cold, she's ugly, and wants out but not really because he cares for her and/or maintaining his family together and image and whatever excuses you can think of. The so-called reasons never changes.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

When I was very young (I'm talking like maybe 19 or 20, I think 20) a friend of mine was having serious problems with his wife. We were already friends, part of the same social circle, we hung out all the time...well he decided he wanted me. They got in a fight and he went to stay with his parents or something, and during that time I did sleep with him.

I would never do it now, I wasn't even thinking honestly...I think I liked him so much as a friend, and was flattered by the attention, and maybe even wanted to see what would happen.

But I was quickly like "no way, this is not worth it, I am not in love with you, please go back to your wife, and if you do leave her, don't leave her for me."

I mean this was within like...a week. Maybe two. I don't even consider myself to have been "the other woman." It was a mistake, but they later thanked me for saving their marriage so yeah ...they're still married and have two children.

She says he's cheated on her since then, though, so I guess he's just a cheater. I was hoping it was a one-time "married young" thing that he had to get out of his system to see he really wanted to be with his wife...and he has stayed with her...but she says she knows he's cheated on her with at least 2 or 3 other women in the past ten years. 

Very unsavory. Not something I would actively choose. I avoid married men like the plague. Even from a totally selfish standpoint, it's a really stupid thing to do to yourself, even if you have no morals about other people's marriages.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Ozziechick1966 said:


> You are going to think that I am a whore,but I have been the other woman a total of 4 times,and you may think me stupid as well because it took me a while to find out that I was the other woman in all 4 instances.They were players and wanted something that their SO's wouldn't or couldn't give them.And I was very vulnerable and naive at the time.I hate myself for being such a slut. Well I am going to summarise it to make it easier to understand.
> 
> 1-I was 23,he was my first lover and aged 30.He was a merchant seaman from another country (Philippines),and we went out on a blind date set up by a work colleague.We had sex that first night as the connection between us was electric.We dated off and on for 6 months and he gave me a number to call him when he was home.He said it was his sister,and we even became unofficially engaged and I was trying to get pregnant.Then he had to go back home for a year and he said that he would marry me when he got back.I heard from him for a few months then nothing.I started to think that he was messing with me and that he was married.I must say that I was terribly naive back then.There also happened to be a natural disaster (floods)in the region where he lived in the Philippines.I thought perhaps something had happened to him whilst he was there.But I googled his name a few years ago and got a match,but was uncertain if it was him.
> 
> ...


I don't think you're a slut.


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

redmanXNTP said:


> Did you know he was married at the time? What led to it?


It was a long time ago
I knew he was married, and I turned him down several times. But he pursued me relentlessly. 

In principal, I don't really see anything wrong with being the outside woman. It's not a role I would want, though, as it's bound to involve too much drama, and be too complicated for my liking. I like things to be as simple as possible.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

twoofthree said:


> It was a long time ago
> I knew he was married, and I turned him down several times. But he pursued me relentlessly.
> 
> *In principal, I don't really see anything wrong with being the outside woman.* It's not a role I would want, though, as it's bound to involve too much drama, and be too complicated for my liking. I like things to be as simple as possible.


Why not?10characters


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

redmanXNTP said:


> Why not?10characters


As long as you accept that the relationship is what it is, and will probably not change, then you should be fine.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

twoofthree said:


> As long as you accept that the relationship is what it is, and will probably not change, then you should be fine.


I was not asking about your expectations, I was asking about why you didn't find it "wrong" which is a separate, moral issue...unless your morals are simply defined by the utility you personally derive from something or someone. Is that the case?


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## LotusBlossom (Apr 2, 2011)

I used to have sex with married men, and neither would I call myself 'the other woman'. One of them confided in me, after he was done, that his wife is a manic depressive.


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## JohnGalt (Nov 5, 2011)

I've slept with women who were in relationships, but I never felt like the "other man". I knew the situation, knew what I wanted out of it, and had no relationship expectations going in. Also, I would never want to date someone who would cheat on their partner that easily. 

I think you only get stuck feeling like the "other" person when you are lied to or when you want something they can't give you. I think men more often get that analogous sense of rejection and lack of self-worth from women who want to be "just friends".


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

redmanXNTP said:


> I was not asking about your expectations, I was asking about why you didn't find it "wrong" which is a separate, moral issue...unless your morals are simply defined by the utility you personally derive from something or someone. Is that the case?


what has utility to do with anything?


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

twoofthree said:


> what has utility to do with anything?


That was my question. 

I'll ask it another way. Do you find engaging a married man in a romantic/sexual relationship to be morally wrong, however fun, imprudent or other practical thing it might be?


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

redmanXNTP said:


> That was my question.
> 
> I'll ask it another way. Do you find engaging a married man in a romantic/sexual relationship to be morally wrong, however fun, imprudent or other practical thing it might be?


As a single woman, no.


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## Eerie (Feb 9, 2011)

I have. I was 19, he was my ex bf that I was with throughout high school. I didn't know. Although, I have to be honest. At the time being so young, and being so vindictive I don't know if knowing he was married would have stopped me. I've grown a lot since then though, and I could never disrespect another woman like that. I guess people don't take her feelings into account when they do this, it just seems so horrible. If I was married and my husband was fucking around it would hurt, and even more if the woman knew and just didn't give a shit.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

twoofthree said:


> As a single woman, no.


Why not?10characters


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## AussieChick (Dec 27, 2010)

Eerie said:


> I have. I was 19, he was my ex bf that I was with throughout high school. I didn't know. Although, I have to be honest. At the time being so young, and being so vindictive I don't know if knowing he was married would have stopped me. I've grown a lot since then though, and I could never disrespect another woman like that. I guess people don't take her feelings into account when they do this, it just seems so horrible. If I was married and my husband was fucking around it would hurt, and even more if the woman knew and just didn't give a shit.


Yes when I found out that I actually knew the wife of one of the married men that I had slept with,I felt terrible for her.He told me that he went behind her back to get sex with another woman because she wouldn't give him a blow job.That is no reason to cheat in my book.There are other ways to please,he could have asked her why she didn't want to do that,but really it's her decision as it is her mouth going on his organ.

When I met him he seemed very familiar to me,but I could not place where I had seen him before.I called him one night after he failed to pick me up for a date and got his message bank.The surname he had given me was false and as soon as I heard his real one,the penny dropped. I was friends with his wife once when we were both Sunday School teachers at the church we attended.We weren't close friends and her husband only went to church on special occasions.He initially told me that he wasn't married and had never been.I did question him about these things before we dated.The next day when he called me,I said you are married and her name is ???.He finally admitted that he had lied to me,but still wanted me to be his mistress,he said that it was the first time he had cheated.He said that if he had told me the truth I wouldn't go out with him,he was damn right.I thought about confronting his wife,but I just couldn't hurt her any more.I didn't think she would believe my side of it anyway,now I am wondering if he has found another woman to be his mistress.

@Eerie you didn't know at the time you were with this guy,and he played you.Even if you did know he was still cheating on his wife to get what he could on the side.The good thing is that you don't want to be in that position again and neither do I.I gave my current partner the option of an open relationship,so if he wants to play around at least it was my suggestion.He said one woman is enough for him and I am kind of glad that he loves and respects me enough to not want to cheat.I do have other partners,but they are women and if my guy and I were to marry,I would give them up in a heartbeat.I am exploring my bi- sexuality right now and my man knows this and has given me his blessing 100%.But if I were to sleep with another man GOD HELP ME!!!!,because I would lose my soul mate and love of my life.I could lie and say that I was with a woman,but he means more to me than a little extra man meat on the side.I'm not a player and never have been,I tell my partner about the women I meet,and he likes to hear the details of our trysts to spice up our sex life,I do keep some details private however.


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

redmanXNTP said:


> Why not?10characters


Why not? Why should I?
I'm only responsible for my part (duties and obligations) in any relationship.


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## Stephen (Jan 17, 2011)

curious0610 said:


> For the men - if any of you have been married, and had something else going on the side.


I was, and I did.



> Could I ask why? Was it the novelty of someone new? Is it because it made you feel young, wanted and attractive again? Is there a certain type of women you tend to pursue as the "other woman"?


After about ten years of marriage, my ex-wife started to become restless. She wanted to start doing new things in our marriage. At first, this was a BDSM thing. In an effort to fulfill my side of things, I did research and learned how to be a dom. After researching, practicing, and going to a play party, I decided most of it really wasn't for me. She said she wanted to keep doing it with other people since it wasn't really for me. Then she wanted to have sex with other people too, which I initially refused. She said she'd divorce me if I didn't agree to have an open marriage with her. I did a lot of research on that and learned how to make that work, and we tried that. So, for a time, I was in what I considered a committed marriage and having sex with another woman. Of course, this was all out in the open, everyone knew what was going on and it was considered OK.

It turned out that wasn't for me either. I couldn't sustain interest in more than one woman at a time, I guess I just don't work that way. As soon as I became intimate with the new woman, I stopped being intimate with my wife. That other woman was single and affectionate in all kinds of ways my wife wasn't, and she didn't want to share me any more than I wanted to be shared.

I came home one day and told my wife that I didn't want the open marriage, so she was getting the divorce she had threatened me with.

I have wished that I'd handled things differently, and just agreed to the divorce right away, but I can't complain about where I ended up. Beyond this, it gave me a lot of knowledge and wisdom about BDSM and polyamory that I never would have even considered otherwise.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

twoofthree said:


> Why not? Why should I?
> I'm only responsible for my part (duties and obligations) in any relationship.


So ethics are all about you then?


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## perennialurker (Oct 1, 2009)

One woman's dating of a married man for ANY reason is unquestionably an attack on monogamous marriage everywhere. Every philandering man is at fault whatever the excuse he has doubtlessly procured. If he is unhappy for any reason at all, he can always divorce her. The only reason not to do so is for expediency- he gains something from being married to her or he sees the cost of divorce as being too high, yet he still seeks to reap the benefits of going behind her back (unless we are talking about an open marriage which is a completely different discussion) and being with someone outside of this marriage. The man maintains the benefits of marriage (or avoids the cost of divorce), while still enjoying another woman. This is why we call it "cheating". A mistress is the willing accomplice in this extra-marital affair.

All people are certainly entitled to their own religious and moral beliefs, but it is clear that a woman who abets a man in this cheating cannot rightly expect to have a man all to _herself_.


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

redmanXNTP said:


> So ethics are all about you then?


In the context of your question, the word 'ethics' doesn't make sense to me. And since I am not responsible for introducing the word into the discussion I'll just repeat:

I'm only responsible for my part (duties and obligations) in any relationship.


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## Stephen (Jan 17, 2011)

perennialurker said:


> One woman's dating of a married man for ANY reason is unquestionably an attack on monogamous marriage everywhere.


I'd hardly call that unquestionable. How is what happens between these two people in any way connected to the greater concept of monogamy or marriage? I don't even consider it an attack on that one marriage. I think cheating is wrong, yes. But which person is cheating here? I'm with @twoofthree. Why is it her responsibility to protect someone else's marriage?



> it is clear that a woman who abets a man in this cheating cannot rightly expect to have a man all to _herself_.


I'd hardly call that clear. Are you saying that no woman who has ever, knowingly or unknowingly, been involved with a married man is entitled to a monogamous relationship in the future if she wants one?


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

twoofthree said:


> In the context of your question, the word 'ethics' doesn't make sense to me. And since I am not responsible for introducing the word into the discussion I'll just repeat:
> 
> *I'm only responsible for my part (duties and obligations) in any relationship.*


Right, and that would include your choice of person to enter a relationship with. 

It's funny to me how terse and evasive you're being on this.


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## Siren (Jun 25, 2011)

perennialurker said:


> One woman's dating of a married man for ANY reason is *unquestionably* an attack on monogamous marriage everywhere.


I have a question - Huh? Why is a woman dating a married man an attack on an entire institution when she may not even be married at all while the man is only responsible for his own marriage.



pereniallurker said:


> Every philandering man is at fault whatever the excuse he has doubtlessly *procured*.


Not sure you're using this correctly but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.



perennialurker said:


> If he is unhappy for any reason at all, he can always divorce her. The only reason not to do so is for expediency- he gains something from being married to her or he sees the cost of divorce as being too high, yet he still seeks to reap the benefits of going behind her back (unless we are talking about an open marriage which is a completely different discussion) and being with someone outside of this marriage. The man maintains the benefits of marriage (or avoids the cost of divorce), while still enjoying another woman. This is why we call it "cheating". A mistress is the willing accomplice in this extra-marital affair.
> 
> All people are certainly entitled to their own religious and moral beliefs, but it is clear that a woman who abets a man in this cheating cannot rightly expect to have a man all to _herself_.


Is this intended to be a summary of the posts to date because I don't see that you have added anything new. And your sweeping generalizations anger me.


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

redmanXNTP said:


> Right, and that would include your choice of person to enter a relationship with.
> 
> It's funny to me how terse and evasive you're being on this.


I have a tendency to answer the question asked.

I am responsible for my choice, not for the person.


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## jimg1126 (Dec 1, 2011)

Married cheating men are disgusting creatures. Very weak and pathetic actually. I wish you women would lead them on, record their conversations and then send them to his wife. These miscreants need to suffer the consequences of their dishonesty.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

twoofthree said:


> I have a tendency to answer the question asked.
> 
> I am responsible for my choice, not for the person.


That may be your tendency, but you're not doing it here. 

I've read your posts and know you're intelligent enough to know that. 

If you don't want to answer, fine, just say so, but I'm just following up on the piece of information you offered without further explanation.


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## Finaille (Aug 8, 2010)

jimg1126 said:


> Married cheating men are disgusting creatures. Very weak and pathetic actually. I wish you women would lead them on, record their conversations and then send them to his wife. These miscreants need to suffer the consequences of their dishonesty.


I wish I had. I had saved loads of IMs and emails... when I finally cut it off (and he believed me), he asked if I could delete everything. Because I was angry and wanted nothing to do with him, I did. Then I felt stupid as he duped me AGAIN... knowing that I would likely do so cause I was angry and sick of him. I wish I had sent every single thing to his wife. Actually... I did email her an apology. While I mentioned that I was manipulated some, I did apologize that I even allowed it and never desired to let it get to that point. While I don't think it would have happened had he not tried to pursue me (actually, it wouldn't have)... I allowed it and should have made my point much earlier. Almost every month in those 7 or 8 months I would try to cut it off he would beg and plead me not to. I think when my now fiance started becoming a greater influence in my life (and considering they worked together), he was able to see I did not really have romantic interest in him and finally backed off when I said I was through.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Finaille said:


> I wish I had. I had saved loads of IMs and emails... when I finally cut it off (and he believed me), he asked if I could delete everything. Because I was angry and wanted nothing to do with him, I did. Then I felt stupid as he duped me AGAIN... knowing that I would likely do so cause I was angry and sick of him. I wish I had sent every single thing to his wife. Actually... I did email her an apology. While I mentioned that I was manipulated some, I did apologize that I even allowed it and never desired to let it get to that point. While I don't think it would have happened had he not tried to pursue me (actually, it wouldn't have)... I allowed it and should have made my point much earlier. Almost every month in those 7 or 8 months I would try to cut it off he would beg and plead me not to. I think when my now fiance started becoming a greater influence in my life (and considering they worked together), he was able to see I did not really have romantic interest in him and finally backed off when I said I was through.


Do you know what happened in response to your email?


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## Finaille (Aug 8, 2010)

redmanXNTP said:


> Do you know what happened in response to your email?


Yeah, she pretty much said never talk to her husband again and a few other nasty comments. I have only seen him a handful of times since (usually just seeing him at the mall, but I never talk to him). She worked there for a while and I went in the store she worked in... talked with another employee and turned out she needed a babysitter. I offered my number and got a nasty call from their phone number that night (that was prolly like 8 months AFTER I dumped his sorry ass) but I ignored it and deleted the message. I don't want to deal with it again. It's not my problem that she was paranoid (assuming she called me) and I'm not going to live in fear. I feel bad for what I did but I just have to move on and learn from my mistakes.

I think I've only seen him in the mall twice this year. Usually I book it, I don't want him talking to me at all.

I coincidentally go to church about a mile and a half from where his family lives (it's where my fiance goes)... my biggest fear is he's going to start attending there or join in the support group that I participate in there. Luckily I haven't run into him outside the mall in my city at all... but then again he lives out of town.


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

redmanXNTP said:


> That may be your tendency, but you're not doing it here.
> 
> I've read your posts and know you're intelligent enough to know that.
> 
> If you don't want to answer, fine, just say so, but I'm just following up on the piece of information you offered without further explanation.


But I have answered the question asked. . . or so I thought.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

twoofthree said:


> But I have answered the question asked. . . or so I thought.


Not directly, but at this point impliedly. What you've conveyed is that your thought of right and wrong extends only to those things that either interest or affect you. If what you does hurts a stranger, or you can justify it by saying that the stranger would be hurt anyway (e.g. "he'd just have an affair with someone else"), you don't care and view your moral obligations being fulfilled, at least in that regard. 

I'm curious, do you ever do nice things for complete strangers expecting nothing in return, i.e. the "pay it forward" concept? If so, why?


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

redmanXNTP said:


> I'm curious, do you ever do nice things for complete strangers expecting nothing in return, i.e. the "pay it forward" concept? If so, why?


I realize this wasn't asked of me although i enjoyed the question. And yes, i do love doing sweet kind things for strangers. Its been my experience that what goes around comes around 10 fold, besides it leaves me feeling all warm and fuzzy inside


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

redmanXNTP said:


> Not directly, but at this point impliedly. What you've conveyed is that your thought of right and wrong extends only to those things that either interest or affect you. If what you does hurts a stranger, or you can justify it by saying that the stranger would be hurt anyway (e.g. "he'd just have an affair with someone else"), you don't care and view your moral obligations being fulfilled, at least in that regard.
> 
> I'm curious, do you ever do nice things for complete strangers expecting nothing in return, i.e. the "pay it forward" concept? If so, why?


I've _directly_ answered every question you've asked.
I haven't answered the questions that you haven't asked. And that's why you think I'm being terse.

Anyway. . .
I have conveyed no such thing - not in general or even in this regard.

I can't be morally responsible for each one of the other 7 billion people on this planet. 
In general, my view is that moral obligations are dependent on my relationship to others. I wouldn't have the same obligations to a sibling as I would to a spouse. Obligations to a stranger would be of a different nature, but they are obligations nonetheless.

In this specific regard, I don't think I have any specific obligation to the man's wife. Whether I not I hurt her is not so easy to determine. 

I do nice things for strangers. I don't consider it to be 'paying it forward' as I don't believe that doing good deeds encourages others to do the same, or entitles me to receive good deeds in the future.


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## perennialurker (Oct 1, 2009)

Can a man cheat on his wife if he has no mistress? Technically he could, but it would require rape or prostitution. A woman voluntarily giving herself over to a man who she knows is married is enabling him to cheat.

It is true that a woman can knowingly help a man cheat and then hope for a man she likes to be loyal to her, but this attitude is undeniably hypocritical.


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

perennialurker said:


> If he is unhappy for any reason at all, he can always divorce her.


So you think that divorce is better than cheating?
Divorce is the ultimate breach of a marriage contract. A marriage can recover from cheating and most other deed. But it cannot recover from a divorce. For that, a new contract would have to be formed.

It's a permanent solution to what might be a temporary issue.

In my opinion 'divorce' is a much bigger threat to the institution of marriage. Just look at what it's become. Now they're even talking about temporary marriages.


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## perennialurker (Oct 1, 2009)

twoofthree said:


> So you think that divorce is better than cheating?
> Divorce is the ultimate breach of a marriage contract. A marriage can recover from cheating and most other deed. But it cannot recover from a divorce. For that, a new contract would have to be formed.
> 
> It's a permanent solution to what might be a temporary issue.
> ...


You'll get no argument from me on that- divorce is a terrible thing. However, marriage, like most social institutions is based upon trust. Divorce, as terrible as it admittedly is, is at least honest. Cheating is not, and therein lies its chief problem. If one cannot trust one's own spouse, then who can one trust?

Furthermore, when I was talking about divorce I was raising it as an answer to the common excuse made by adulterers that their relationships with their spouses suffer from chronic unsolvable problems.

If we take your very legitimate point that this may be a temporary issue between a couple, then the mistress' behavior is even worse. This is because it is now possible that she could become a wedge between the couple where they might otherwise have been able to resolve these issues on their own. 

I think we can both agree that the ideal solution in these situations would be for one to talk with one's partner about problems in their relationship to try to find a solution that they can both be happy with. This is made much harder if, instead of talking through the issues with their spouse, one is sneaking away to have an affair with someone else.


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## AussieChick (Dec 27, 2010)

Just curious,I had been legally separated from my ex husband for 9 years before I started sleeping with someone else.I had still occasionally slept with my husband,but I really didn't think I had a way out of the marriage for most of my separation.I felt trapped,my husband threatened suicide if I ever mentioned the D word.Our children were still relatively young and I didn't want to upset them,even though they knew that their father was an abusive a-hole.

Plus I was suffering from depression and had a very low self esteem.I really didn't think anyone else would want me.I married my husband for this reason.Although I had feelings for him at the time,I don't think it was love.He pestered me continuously to marry him till I gave in.When an older man I had known as friends for ten years said that he had split with his fiancee because he had fallen in love with me I was suddenly given a life line so to speak.It was only a brief relationship as the engagement between he and his partner was never really over.I was waiting for him to visit me one day,and he was late,then I got a call I thought was him.It was the fiancee asking what was going on.They were still together and she knew he was cheating with me and asked him to break it off.Before he had the chance I texted him and told him to bugger off in not so polite terms.He has tried to rekindle things with me twice since then.I refused as I have a new man in my life who is way better than him.I even refused him when my partner and I were just starting to get to know each other better.Supposedly this guy has definitely split with his fiancee now,and she was cheating on him when he was doing it with me.She is apparently pregnant now and he can't be the father as he had a vasectomy some years ago.


So in a nutshell am I a whore,slut,ho,even though he lied to me and I was still legally married to my ex,even though not living together as husband and wife.Am I a whore,slut,ho for starting a sexual relationship with my new partner before my divorce was finalised.My marriage was over the day I kicked my husband out of the marital home after finding out that he had sexually abused our daughter who was 7 years old at the time.It had been going on for two years behind my back and it took my 7 year old son to have the courage and be brave enough to tell me that he saw daddy doing something not nice to his sister.Did I believe my son immediately when he told me.YOU bet I did!!!!! My husband said that he would never cheat on me with another woman.Well I wish he had of done that instead of cheating with our daughter.Divorce is wrong yes,but I did not want to be married to that dirt bag any longer than I had to.He applied for the divorce in the end,which makes me think that his taunts of don't divorce me or I'll kill myself to be a crock of shit.

If it wasn't for having that affair then I would still be walking around with blinkers on,still letting my husband control and manipulate me.He is very good like that.After the affair I felt rejuvenated.YES somebody else wanted me,had professed their love for me,even though it was superficial.It made me stronger and I went out and started dating again.I even had a few one night stands.Something I had never considered before.It even made me think that I wanted to explore my bisexuality.I had always fantasised and lusted after other women,but was too afraid to pursue it.Well I have done that too and my partner supports me 100% in this venture.He wants me to truly find out what makes me tick,and understands it is something I need to do.Am I cheating on him,I don't think so because I am very open about it with him.He has the option to be with another woman but prefers not to.If we should marry in the future then I believe that I will not pursue women any more.I do believe that monogamy in a healthy marriage is crucial to the continuation and growth of the relationship.My marriage to my ex was far from healthy even before we separated and I felt trapped and compelled to be loyal to him even though he had abused our daughter and raped me several times in our marriage bed.
.
To cut a long story short,there is cheating whilst lying and going behind the spouses back and there is mutual agreement as to what can and can't happen in the relationship.I believe that I am in the second category now,as my partner fully knows what I am getting up to.I could lie to him and say that I am with Maria when really I am with Mario,but to me that is a shocking breach of trust and faith that he has put in me.I agreed that I would be with women only and I will not go back on that promise.


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

You are not a ho/slut/whore. Do not let *anyone* tell you that you are those things.

Never mind the legalities of not being legally divorced. Even if you weren't even separated, in my books, you are still not a whore/slut.
Those are misogynistic terms and no woman should ever use those terms on herself. They are designed to demonise a woman's sexuality. As if, because you like sex then you're something reprehensible.

I can tell that you're still struggling with your self esteem. 

Your ex-husband is a bastard. I would've castrated his arse. Messing with his own 7-year old daughter . . .


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## Finaille (Aug 8, 2010)

perennialurker said:


> You'll get no argument from me on that- divorce is a terrible thing. However, marriage, like most social institutions is based upon trust. Divorce, as terrible as it admittedly is, is at least honest. Cheating is not, and therein lies its chief problem. If one cannot trust one's own spouse, then who can one trust?
> 
> Furthermore, when I was talking about divorce I was raising it as an answer to the common excuse made by adulterers that their relationships with their spouses suffer from chronic unsolvable problems.
> 
> ...


That's what irritates me though. Couples going into marriage should have issues such as these already worked out... I'm not talking about cheating, but communication when there is a problem, having solutions when problems occur, trust, elimination of and/or working through any potential red flags. Yes, I know things may occur that are not good... personalities can change slightly and mental disorders can develop. What happened to you @AussieChick is atrocious and I'm glad you got out of there, no man (whether they are married to you or not) should ever harm a child. Some people would choose to seek help, but in that case I'm not going to tell a person what to do; they need to do what is best for the sake of the family obviously.

I have observed my fiance a lot over the two and a half years I have known him. I've seen him own his mistakes and fix them. I know he doesn't have a history of cheating. I know he communicates and tells me when he has a problem. We have gone over multiple issues that could arise in our years of marriage and come up with solutions (obviously not all complete, but we are both completely ok with seeing a counselor if necessary). We know very well that other things can come up... but I fully intend on committing to him when the going gets rough. I know there will be days where I don't feel romantic love for him. Hell, it could be weeks or months. But I'm sticking through... I will be there for him!! I know he will do the same for me.

It just sickens me that people can even consider a marriage 'temporary'. That is not the point. I'm glad to see my generation's divorce rates are slightly lower, but it's one of many reasons I desire to go into social work. I want people to know what a marriage means and help young women and young men understand what 'lifelong commitment' means.

Nobody ever said it was easy.

And kudos for married couples who can overcome a bout of cheating. I imagine it must be extremely difficult.


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## rednet2 (Jun 25, 2010)

Finaille said:


> jimg1126 said:
> 
> 
> > Married cheating men are disgusting creatures. Very weak and pathetic actually. I wish you women would lead them on, record their conversations and then send them to his wife. These miscreants need to suffer the consequences of their dishonesty.
> ...


I don't think that's a good idea. I abhorr cheats, and by all means, send all the evidence you have to their partners and end it right there, but leading them on would just cause far too much collateral damage to yourself. Once you start leading them on, you're actively deceiving them (which can be rather stressful) and using your body/sexuality as a tool/object, which could have severe repercussions for your self-esteem. (Especially since low self-esteem appears to make people particularly susceptible to knowingly being the other person.)


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## Eerie (Feb 9, 2011)

If I was married, and my husband was unfaithful I'd divorce him in a heart beat. Fuck that shit.


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

rdnetto said:


> I don't think that's a good idea. I abhorr cheats, and by all means, send all the evidence you have to their partners and end it right there, but leading them on would just cause far too much collateral damage to yourself. Once you start leading them on, you're actively deceiving them (which can be rather stressful) and using your body/sexuality as a tool/object, which could have severe repercussions for your self-esteem. (Especially since low self-esteem appears to make people particularly susceptible to knowingly being the other person.)


Many times, the wife will turn on the woman, and totally blame *her* for it. They won't acknowledge that their husband had some part in the whole mess. 
So sometimes sending evidence to the partners isn't good for you.


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## tissa (Nov 22, 2011)

twoofthree said:


> On average, a divorce does more harm to a marriage than cheating, since there's no recovery from it. It's the ultimate breach of contract. It by far more disruptive, as you then have to go through the dissolution of a contract and assets etc. need to be divided. Children are caught up in it etc.


Please back it up with research that you are basing your conclusions off of. Also consider what cheating does to people on individual level.


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## tissa (Nov 22, 2011)

AussieChick said:


> I have been the third party four times,and I was lied to by all of the men involved.I asked plenty of questions before I dated these guys,particularly the last two times it happened.If I had known these guys were married before I slept with them it definitely would not have occurred in the first instance.


Read my post above. I said "Unless they were lied to"

I am sorry for your experiences!


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## tissa (Nov 22, 2011)

oh the joys of gender differences!


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## Alysaria (Jul 7, 2009)

twoofthree said:


> But what is the responsibility of the external company? They're entitled to do business as it suits them.


The company is the only reason 2 people have a contract. And the contract *is* decided on between the two people - however, if you go with the standard document and it does not allow for either partner to do business with a third party without the other's consent....then the contract is broken. When it's broken it's broken - you might be able to negotiate afterwards, but you can't break it more by deciding to dissolve it.


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

tissa said:


> Please back it up with research that you are basing your conclusions off of. Also consider what cheating does to people on individual level.


Research?!

Divorce is the end of a marriage. So it has a 100% rate. It's the definition of the word.
Infidelity doesn't have to be. It has a less than 100% rate.

Therefore, divorce is more harmful to a marriage than infidelity.



Alysaria said:


> The company is the only reason 2 people have a contract. And the contract *is* decided on between the two people - however, if you go with the standard document and it does not allow for either partner to do business with a third party without the other's consent....then the contract is broken. When it's broken it's broken - you might be able to negotiate afterwards, but you can't break it more by decided to dissolve it.


A breach doesn't automatically dissolve a contract. There's usually something written into it that decides how such things will be dealt with. Through arbitration etc.

Similarly infidelity doesn't end a marriage contract. Divorce does.

But I'm being drawn of course here.

If I'm the 3rd party (company), then I'm nothing to do with that contract or business partnership.


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## Alysaria (Jul 7, 2009)

twoofthree said:


> Research?!
> 
> Divorce is the end of a marriage. So it has a 100% rate. It's the definition of the word.
> Infidelity doesn't have to be. It has a less than 100% rate.
> ...


It may not automatically do so, but it is good cause. That's what I'm trying to say. If you can't trust your partner, then it's not fair to either of you to stay in a contract that isn't satisfactory to either of you.


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## tissa (Nov 22, 2011)

twoofthree said:


> Research?!
> 
> Divorce is the end of a marriage. So it has a 100% rate. It's the definition of the word.
> Infidelity doesn't have to be. It has a less than 100% rate.
> ...


That is an interesting conclusion. I thought we were talking about what is HARMFUL to marriage and not about what ENDS it. End of marriage sometimes makes people happy actually. Is it a harm? And on the other note staying in a marriage where cheating occured can and often is a very painful experience for the family. What is more harmful?


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

Alysaria said:


> It may not automatically do so, but it is good cause. That's what I'm trying to say. If you can't trust your partner, then it's not fair to either of you to stay in a contract that isn't satisfactory to either of you.


It's good cause.
But then you may also decide that you prefer to re-evaluate things and continue the partnership.

You might think, "you know what, that was actually a good deal you made with that other company. let's pursue it as a company". . .

Or you may decide to alter the contract to address some deficiency in it.

Or you may take the view that as long as you're getting half of the proceeds, you don't mind that he did the deal without your knowledge.

Or you may be realise that the shares may be worthless so you stick it out until you're in a better position to sell them.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

twoofthree said:


> Research?!
> 
> Divorce is the end of a marriage. So it has a 100% rate. It's the definition of the word.
> Infidelity doesn't have to be. It has a less than 100% rate.
> ...


If we're going to stick with the breach of contract paradigm, there's a tort known as "interference with a contractual relationship" that can give rise to a third party's liability, even though they weren't a party to the contract. 

You were critical of my analogies previously, so . . .


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

tissa said:


> That is an interesting conclusion. I thought we were talking about what is HARMFUL to marriage and not about what ENDS it. End of marriage sometimes makes people happy actually. Is it a harm? And on the other note staying in a marriage where cheating occured can and often is a very painful experience for the family. What is more harmful?


Give it up. twoofthree is hopelessly deconstructive on this, which I suspect comes from a desire to justify her prior role(s) as a supposedly innocent "other woman".


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

tissa said:


> That is an interesting conclusion. I thought we were talking about what is HARMFUL to marriage and not about what ENDS it. End of marriage sometimes makes people happy actually. Is it a harm? And on the other note staying in a marriage where cheating occured can and often is a very painful experience for the family. What is more harmful?


What can be more harmful to something than the act that destroys it. 
Sure it may make the individuals happy to end the marriage. And to stay in it may hurt the individuals.

But we're talking about the marriage here, not the individuals.

And if they are happier after dissolving the marriage then, according to those who want to lay blame on the other woman, she deserves some credit for that.

Which is why I said, that she cannot determine what effect it has on the contracted individuals. Only they can decide that. And that it's not certain that she will do harm.


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## Alysaria (Jul 7, 2009)

twoofthree said:


> It's good cause.
> But then you may also decide that you prefer to re-evaluate things and continue the partnership.
> 
> You might think, "you know what, that was actually a good deal you made with that other company. let's pursue it as a company". . .
> ...


The other half of the equation does involve emotions. While it's possible to have an arrangement that is essentially a business deal to produce babies...why bother marrying at all? You may as well buy a donated egg and pay a surrogate mother to give birth to your child....or make a "no affections involved" contract to have sex once a month, produce X amount of children, and split ways amicably after 18 years.  

Emotions are what make the whole thing so devastating. It's someone you love and care for very much showing you with their actions that they have no respect for you and aren't satisfied with what you have to offer. Counseling does wonders....if the cheater wants to change or is legitimately sorry.... And you can repair a broken relationship, but what are the odds that you'd ever completely trust that other person again? Some people simply cannot be in a marriage where they cannot trust their mate implicitly. Some can forgive once. Some don't give a crap. >.> But you should probably know in advance what kind of mate you have and be willing to accept their preference before signing the contract....otherwise you might as well be guilty of perjury for falsely depicting yourself in the light of fidelity.


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

redmanXNTP said:


> If we're going to stick with the breach of contract paradigm, there's a tort known as "interference with a contractual relationship" that can give rise to a third party's liability, even though they weren't a party to the contract.
> 
> You were critical of my analogies previously, so . . .


Yes. And the counterpart to this is the wife holding the mistress at fault. That is an emotional stance (equivalent of the tort in this case), not a contractual, or civil stance.



redmanXNTP said:


> Give it up. twoofthree is hopelessly deconstructive on this, which I suspect comes from a desire to justify her prior role(s) as a supposedly innocent "other woman".


I never claimed to be innocent. I said I knew he was married. I also said it was a one-off thing.

And no I didn't stop because of anything to do with his marital status.

I don't need to justify anything to anyone. I don't even know who I would be expected to want to justify it to  I feel zero guilt about it. I don't even know what happened to him or his relationship subsequently.

You tell me who I need to justify it to, because I may not have considered it.


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## kristle (Oct 21, 2010)

It seems like there's a lot of distancing behavior going on here. Instead of viewing it as a relationship the other woman is helping to wreck, it's a "business partnership" or just a "contract". I can imagine how this helps one to feel less blame for it's destruction. After all, an other woman didn't sign that contract.

But the reality of the situation is that it is not just another contract that you are separate and outside of. You are willingly causing the destruction and pain to not just the relationship's status, but the wife and children's lives/hearts. 

You are *helping* someone break their commitment and emotionally destroy other family's lives. I may agree that the husband is more to blame in this situation than anyone, but the other woman is so far from innocent.

I also think it's a little naive to say it's worse to get a divorce than to cheat. Dealing with the end of a relationship/marriage is awful. Dealing with someone who broke your trust and risked bringing you home an STD - fucking twice as awful. Three times as awful if they tried to hide it.

I think the other woman believes ignorance is bliss. If she ignores the destruction being done to the wife and children, if she ignores the time and intimacy she is stealing away from the family, she can pretend she is a hero for helping a brother out and taking for herself what belongs to others. Perhaps there's even an element of excitement for her. Fuck, go bungee jumping and leave the married slimebags alone.


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## n2freedom (Jun 2, 2011)

I was involved with a married man when I was 22. He was 30. What was it like? It was fun and I enjoyed him very much until he was separated from his wife. I have no clue why he was having something on the side. I have no idea what his wife was like. I didn't get into all of that with him. A few weeks after he was separated from his wife, I ended it.

I was involved with a married man when I was 29 and he was 34. What was it like? No different than dating anyone else. What was his wife like? Don't know because he claimed they were divorced when in actuality they were not. When I discovered he had lied to me, I ended it.


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## strawberryLola (Sep 19, 2010)

I was the other woman and was lied to. Both times were at work. It kinda jades me to think about it. I think in both cases, both guys wanted something thrilling. It had nothing to do with me. I bet you anything, they were trying to get with other women around the block. I just wasn't there to witness. It doesn't surprise me that this behavior doesn't repeat itself.

How their spouses were like? They appeared to be the loyal/innocent types. :/


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

kristle said:


> It seems like there's a lot of distancing behavior going on here. Instead of viewing it as a relationship the other woman is helping to wreck, it's a "business partnership" or just a "contract". I can imagine how this helps one to feel less blame for it's destruction. After all, an other woman didn't sign that contract.


It wasn't me that chose that analogy (that was someone on your side of the discussion). So I don't need it to feel less blame or to do any distancing as you put it.



> But the reality of the situation is that it is not just another contract that you are separate and outside of. You are willingly causing the destruction and pain to not just the relationship's status, but the wife and children's lives/hearts.
> 
> You are helping someone break their commitment and emotionally destroy other family's lives. I may agree that the husband is more to blame in this situation than anyone, but the other woman is so far from innocent.
> 
> ...


You sure use the word destruction a lot.
That just goes to show that you're choosing to look at this from a melodramatic and only look at the extreme consequence.

To me, all this talk of destruction (and annihilation) is so melodramatic and uncalled for. People deal with and move on from these kinds of things all the time. Destruction only occurs if those involved choose that route. Not every woman reacts like that. Some do; some don't. Some realise that there's so much more to their relationship.

Some people don't choose that route and they nor their children are _destroyed_. 
Who can account for how others choose to react? But this goes back to the partner. He's the one who should know what impact it would have on his home.

With regard to the bit I've put in bold. What I said was that divorce does more harm to the relationship.

We won't ever agree.
I've realised that it's probably rooted in very fundamental differences in how we view relationships to start with.


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## Alysaria (Jul 7, 2009)

kristle said:


> It seems like there's a lot of distancing behavior going on here. Instead of viewing it as a relationship the other woman is helping to wreck, it's a "business partnership" or just a "contract". I can imagine how this helps one to feel less blame for it's destruction. After all, an other woman didn't sign that contract.
> 
> But the reality of the situation is that it is not just another contract that you are separate and outside of. You are willingly causing the destruction and pain to not just the relationship's status, but the wife and children's lives/hearts.
> 
> ...


I was arguing under the assumption that the contract referred to the marriage. O.O It takes all kinds and there are people who can have an open marriage...but it's only really open if it's agreed upon and not assumed. Being in a relationship doesn't mean you stop being attracted to people...but if you are, why put yourself in a position where something might happen?

I don't think the "other woman" helps the situation, but it takes 2 to cheat....and it's not like most women go out of their way to seduce a married man.


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## AussieChick (Dec 27, 2010)

tissa said:


> Read my post above. I said "Unless they were lied to"
> 
> I am sorry for your experiences!


I did read your post,but must have misinterpreted it somehow.Ooops so sorry @tissa.Thank you for understanding that I did not intentionally set out to be a home wrecker,and ended the affair as soon as I found out the whole messy situation.


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## kristle (Oct 21, 2010)

twoofthree said:


> To me, all this talk of destruction (and annihilation) is so melodramatic and uncalled for. People deal with and move on from these kinds of things all the time. Destruction only occurs if those involved choose that route. Not every woman reacts like that. Some do; some don't. *Some realise that there's so much more to their relationship.*


This sounds like more distancing behavior. You are seriously going to go with cheating isn't destructive? Cheating does a few specific things. (I don't consider it cheating if wife knowingly allows it for the record)

1) Sexually betrayal 
2) Commitment breaking 
3) Broken trust
4) Possible emotional betrayal

So if the sexual fidelity is broke, and the loyalty and trust are gone what exactly is this "so much more to a relationship" that you speak of? I can't imagine anything that's left being more important than those. 

It's very shallow to assume cheating is nothing but a physical act. And a non-destructive one at that. The consequences are so much more. If the wife doesn't know about it. He is lying and sneaking around. That's huge. That's destructive. And yes, that a big melodramatic deal-breaker.

Once again, you are short sighted if you think it does no damage to the wife and children. Even a family that recovers from adultery is not "better off" from having to go through it. There are tears, fears, stress, pain, and insecurities for all. You are shaking up the stability of their world. They are watching from afar, waiting to see what the outcome does to their existence.

But then again, you aren't worried about that. They aren't your family. If you close your eyes tight enough, you'll see only the sex.

I've witness a family member deal with cheating in it's best possible outcome. Believe me, it was *still destructive* to every person involved - except perhaps the other woman. She was no longer was interested when it stopped being a fun, dirty little secret and quickly moved on to another married man. Honestly, her leaving the picture was the best thing to ever happen to them NOT when she walked in. So don't kid yourself. You aren't doing anyone's marriage a favor by fucking her husband.


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

Alysaria said:


> I don't think the "other woman" helps the situation, but it takes 2 to cheat....and it's not like most women go out of their way to seduce a married man.


I disagree with this.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Duck_of_Death said:


> I disagree with this.


Agreed. There are some women (and men) for whom it's a rush to seduce a married man/woman given how taboo it is.


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## Alysaria (Jul 7, 2009)

Duck_of_Death said:


> I disagree with this.


I said *most* - there are always exceptions to everything, but I'd like to think that in most cases there's just mutual attraction combined with bad choices as opposed to any real plot.


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

kristle said:


> This sounds like more distancing behavior. You are seriously going to go with cheating isn't destructive?


You're going with every case of fidelity destroys the marriage?


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## Finaille (Aug 8, 2010)

redmanXNTP said:


> Agreed. There are some women (and men) for whom it's a rush to seduce a married man/woman given how taboo it is.


I think it varies; the reasons, the motives, and the personalities all influence the 'who is truly responsible'. I think in some cases the married guy pressures a girl, I think in others the girl doesn't care and just rolls with it.

Either way it's wrong. No excuse for that. I was pressured in my situation; it definitely would not have happened on my own watch. But I still made the choice and I recognize the damage I did (or could have done, I actually don't know what happened to them). I tried to right as much as I could, but I'm glad I got out of it and got over it. I hope they got through it, best I can hope for.

Never again.


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## kristle (Oct 21, 2010)

Alysaria said:


> ....and it's not like most women go out of their way to seduce a married man.


I know a lot of men go out of their way to seduce married women. I doubt it's that different in reverse.


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## kristle (Oct 21, 2010)

twoofthree said:


> You're going with every case of fidelity destroys the marriage?


It doesn't have to end the marriage to still cause destruction. In fact, I pointed out a lot of damage cheating causes in my post. 

Destruction is more than just an end to something. It is damage. Helping someone lie, cheat, and break their vows causes damage to the relationship and to the people depending on that relationship. It doesn't matter if the adultery ends the marriage or not; damage is still done both to the relationship and to the family involved. 

But I think you know that.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

twoofthree said:


> You're going with every case of fidelity destroys the marriage?


You're going with being, as an outsider to the marriage, able to distinguish which case is which?


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

Alysaria said:


> I said *most* - there are always exceptions to everything, but I'd like to think that in most cases there's just mutual attraction combined with bad choices as opposed to any real plot.


I guess it just happens, huh?


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

redmanXNTP said:


> You're going with being, as an outsider to the marriage, able to distinguish which case is which?



I don't have to. 

I'm going with:
It's not my business to. This is what I've been saying all along.

So yes, I am an outsider.


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## Alysaria (Jul 7, 2009)

1. If you're in a relationship, you have no real excuse for "slipping up." You allowed it to happen, either by making a choice or by entering into a situation where it was a possibility. Unless you are drugged, physically restrained, or have your freedom restricted in some other way that was not directly caused by a choice (like drinking 8 shots), you kind of put yourself in the position to cheat. 

2. No other person has control over your actions. The "other woman" or "other man" is not your boss (if they are literally your employer you have grounds to file for sexual harassment) - but I mean in the terms of dominance. You make your own choices....and as much as someone might like to blame that sexy other woman or man for making them stray, it's not like a gun is being held to their head. 

3. There are just as many married predators as single "spouse hunters" - blame is mutual in the situation.


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## n2freedom (Jun 2, 2011)

I agree with Two. And, it was my perspective when I was married too. My take on it was this...my ex husband walked down the aisle and made the vow forsaking all others. No one else...except him and me. If he chose to cheat, then it was on him. He would have betrayed me...not anyone else. But, him. And, the ultimate blame I would have laid at his door. Period.

I also agree with Two, I am not responsible for someone else's vows and whatever else they do outside of their marriages. I choose not to be involved with married men for my own personal reasons. The only person who is responsible for any potential damage to the marriage because of cheating is the husband and/or the wife whichever partner is engaging in the extramarital affair.

It is not my job or my responsibility to help someone else keep their husband from being on the prowl.


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

Well, I guess that altruism garbage goes right out the window, huh?

The lesson I take from all of this is: 
It's okay to screw other people over so long as you're not the one getting screwed.
Oh, and when confronted, convolute the issue to assuage your way out of any form of guilt.

Hell. It sounds like the American way to me.


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

kristle said:


> It doesn't have to end the marriage to still cause destruction. In fact, I pointed out a lot of damage cheating causes in my post.
> 
> Destruction is more than just an end to something. It is damage. Helping someone lie, cheat, and break their vows causes damage to the relationship and to the people depending on that relationship. It doesn't matter if the adultery ends the marriage or not; damage is still done both to the relationship and to the family involved.
> 
> But I think you know that.


so destruction = damage?
That's a different definition from what I'm used to.

I was never saying that there's no damage. I'm just saying that it doesn't have to be the dramatic destruction you describe.



> So if the sexual fidelity is broke, and the loyalty and trust are gone what exactly is this "so much more to a relationship" that you speak of? I can't imagine anything that's left being more important than those.


This is how it would be for you.

Do you realise that it wouldn't be like this for everyone?

Some women won't read so much into a bit of sex on the side. Because they realise that the bigger part of their relationship is still in tact. He's still what they consider to be a good husband and a great provider and they still share whatever it is that drew them together in the first place. 

Some women will not throw away their marriage because of infidelity.

Sexual fidelity is a big issue to you. To many people it is not that big a deal.

I'm just saying that it's not a given that it will destroy/damage/annihilate anything.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

However, none of this is particularly relevant. These are all besides the main point.

My position is (remains) that the other woman has no moral obligations to his wife/marriage.
How they see infidelity, and how they deal with it, can not be determined by her.
So she cannot base any actions on her part on what might/may/could/would/should happen in their relationship.

The only person who can determine these things and make conscious decisions about them is either of the parties to that contract.


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## MXZCCT (May 29, 2011)

Duck_of_Death said:


> Well, I guess that altruism garbage goes right out the window, huh?
> 
> The lesson I take from all of this is:
> It's okay to screw other people over so long as you're not the one getting screwed.
> ...


That is the way its always been, in every aspect of life.

Look out for numero uno.


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## Alysaria (Jul 7, 2009)

Duck_of_Death said:


> Well, I guess that morality garbage goes right out the window, huh?
> 
> The lesson I take from all of this is:
> It's okay to screw other people over so long as you're not the one getting screwed.
> ...


There are no simple answers when emotions are involved. Right and wrong are objective, but morality and guilt are subjective. You could be raised to think that sex is filthy and degrading and only engage in it as a necessary means to procreate and never cheat....but also never have a healthy relationship with your partner because you're disgusted by the act and them by extension. You could also be in a relationship where you and your mate don't have any sexual satisfaction unless you watch the other with another person...it's cheating, but it's condoned by the spouse.


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

Alysaria said:


> There are no simple answers when emotions are involved. Right and wrong are objective, but morality and guilt are subjective.


Guilt--not so much. Some people don't feel guilt. Some people are just sociopaths, through and through.
Right and Wrong are very much subjective. 
Sometimes the ends justify the means.



> You could be raised to think that sex is filthy and degrading and only engage in it as a necessary means to procreate and never cheat....but also never have a healthy relationship with your partner because you're disgusted by the act and them by extension.


The Madonna/Whore complex. Gotcha.



> You could also be in a relationship where you and your mate don't have any sexual satisfaction unless you watch the other with another person...it's cheating, but it's condoned by the spouse.


Now that's just straight up weird to me.
Who the hell does that?


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## tissa (Nov 22, 2011)

Duck_of_Death said:


> Well, I guess that altruism garbage goes right out the window, huh?
> 
> The lesson I take from all of this is:
> It's okay to screw other people over so long as you're not the one getting screwed.
> ...


THANK YOU!!!!! Thumbs up! Glad to hear that there are ppl with strong morals out there


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## n2freedom (Jun 2, 2011)

The lesson I get from all this is marry wise. Either a person honors their commitments and their words or they don't. There are many signs to indicate a person's propensity for cheating. And, the problem and responsibility resides with the person who is cheating period. They are the one who is committing the act of betrayal period.


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## Alysaria (Jul 7, 2009)

Duck_of_Death said:


> Guilt--not so much. Some people don't feel guilt. Some people are just sociopaths, through and through.
> Right and Wrong are very much subjective.
> Sometimes the ends justify the means.
> 
> ...


Lol. I wouldn't recommend doing an internet search to find out. XD "Right" and "Wrong" are objective in terms of what one has on a legal contract. >.>


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

Eerie said:


> Yanno, I don't know if it's been talked about in this thread or not because I don't feel like going through 14 pages and looking for it but the thing that irks me the most about "other men" and "other women" fucking married people is what if they have kids? Does your own sexual needs come before them possibly having to deal with the outcome? Does anyone know what that does to kids at an early age? I guess it depends on the person but it can really really mess a kid up. And it's sorta disgusting for anyone to think that how horny they are for that person comes before those children that could be a result of that marriage.


Yeah. . .
How could a married person do that to their own kids?!


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## Eerie (Feb 9, 2011)

twoofthree said:


> Yeah. . .
> How could a married person do that to their own kids?!


Exactly, thinking first could help a lot of people out. Would have helped my mother out a lot.


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## Alysaria (Jul 7, 2009)

Eerie said:


> Yanno, I don't know if it's been talked about in this thread or not because I don't feel like going through 14 pages and looking for it but the thing that irks me the most about "other men" and "other women" fucking married people is what if they have kids? Does your own sexual needs come before them possibly having to deal with the outcome? Does anyone know what that does to kids at an early age? I guess it depends on the person but it can really really mess a kid up. And it's sorta disgusting for anyone to think that how horny they are for that person comes before those children that could be a result of that marriage.


>< Perfidious. When my brother-in-law first cheated on my sister, that was the word I found in my guide to synonyms to describe him. It not only describes a person as being unfaithful, but adds to it the inability to ever be faithful. No impulse control and open to any possibility...he asked my sister to marry him after dating for only a few months. She forgave him the first time he cheated and kicked him out the second. They had 3 kids by then, and she was pregnant with the 4th. He gets the kids every other weekend (and is not the most reliable guy for picking the kids up or returning them with coats in the winter)...but they still have a relationship with their dad. It was stressful for them early on...and he made it worse by telling his little daddy's girl that "Mommy kicked him out and he wasn't going to be able to come back"...and then stormed out and slammed the door on her arm in his dramatic exit because she tried to follow him in tears. 

>< Divorce may not be ideal....but it still allows a child to see both parents and unless they are petty and vindictive, understand that neither parent (nor the child) was at fault and they are still loved by both. It's hard not to be both petty and vindictive with cheating in the mix.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

twoofthree said:


> Yeah. . .
> How could a married person do that to their own kids?!


Yep. Or others' kids too, right?


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## emerald sea (Jun 4, 2011)

twoofthree said:


> What can be more harmful to something than the act that destroys it.


whether you agree or not, cheating is destructive to a marriage. even if the other spouse never finds out, emotional closeness is torn down, and that is the source of all that makes marriage something more than mere friendship or mere sex. a woman feels it - and hurts - when her man pulls away from her, when the emotional closeness is no longer there, when his attentions are drawn elsewhere and she does not enthrall him or capture his primary attention as she used to. this leads to marital problems. just ask any psychologist. and it is not a service to break up people's marriages. divorce may be a relief in certain respects but it always leaves people with pain and baggage, even if both parties wanted the divorce. divorce is always messy when it comes to people's emotions. (and this is just the partners - not to mention the emotional devastation caused to the children.) you cannot violate the sexual or emotional element of a relationship and not wreak any emotional havoc on the people involved. 

you here stated that the effect is destruction, and an act is the cause. it follows that since cheating is destructive (either temporarily or permanently) to marriages, and the act of adultery is the cause of this destruction, then the actors are the ones responsible for the destruction, since cause leads to effect. adultery is not committed alone - it is an act two people commit. therefore two people are responsible. 

if someone is responsible for destruction, in most cases we call that a crime. the law holds people responsible for these acts - calls them in to account for (and, in some cases, be punished for) what they have done...because you are considered the responsible party if you had ANY PART AT ALL in the act, even if it is by aiding and abetting the primary actor in the crime. even if nothing else, the other woman is aiding and abetting the cheater in cheating, because he can't do it alone. in the law, if you destroy someone's life, you are a murderer and murder is a crime. in the law, if you destroy someone's property, you are a vandal and vandalism is a crime. the police has every right to find you and call you responsible if you commit either of these destructive acts. 

just because what the other woman destroys is not tangible, but rather a (should-be-inviolable, closer than any other) relationship, does not make the destruction any less real, nor the actors any less responsible. the intangible destruction caused by sexual abuse is what makes it such a horrific crime. the intangible destruction caused by PTSD is what makes it so devastating. intangible destruction is often much more difficult to heal than that which is tangible...and the effects can last for the victim's entire life. 

so if you are one of the actors in the act which causes destruction, you are the cause, and you are responsible. there is no "the other woman is not responsible." sorry, but every time you act you are responsible for the decisions you make. no one else makes your decisions for you, so no one else is accountable for what you do, but you. and if you what you do causes destruction and you feel no responsibility, you are living in denial of the fact that an act of destruction can't be committed without an actor...and that you are an actor.

i am not being judgmental of you. i'm not perfect and i don't know any humans who are, so i have no right to judge anyone else. so please don't feel like i am judging you. i have different ethical beliefs (since i believe cheating is ethically wrong) but i am not trying to impose my beliefs on you. i am just stating in as simple terms as i can how it is logically impossible for the other woman not to be responsible for the destruction she causes. if you are the other woman, you are one of the responsible parties for any damage that occurs to the marriage(s) involved...


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## Siren (Jun 25, 2011)

seastallion said:


> whether you agree or not, cheating is destructive to a marriage. even if the other spouse never finds out, emotional closeness is torn down, and that is the source of all that closeness that makes marriage something more than mere friendship. a woman feels it - and hurts - when her man pulls away from her, when the emotional closeness is no longer there, when his attentions are drawn elsewhere and she does not enthrall him or capture his primary attention as she used to. this leads to marital problems. just ask any psychologist. and it is not a service to break up people's marriages. divorce may be a relief in certain respects but it always leaves people with pain and baggage, even if both parties wanted the divorce. divorce is always messy when it comes to people's emotions. (and this is just the partners - not to mention the emotional devastation caused to the children.) you cannot violate the sexual or emotional element of a relationship and not wreak any emotional havoc on the people involved.
> 
> you here stated that the effect is destruction, and an act is the cause. it follows that since cheating is destructive (either temporarily or permanently) to marriages, and the act of adultery is the cause of this destruction, then the actors are the ones responsible for the destruction, since cause leads to effect. adultery is not committed alone - it is an act two people commit. therefore two people are responsible.
> 
> ...


I understand your logic and you actually make a good point but it presupposes that the marriage wasn't already broken to begin with. I'm not saying its a justification, it's just a logical flaw in your argument - the other woman is responsible for her part in the destruction but if the destruction was already done by the time she came along then what did she actually do?

And let's not forget that cheating is more than just two horny people hooking up. There are emotional cheaters, too. If someone I was seeing had an emotional connection to someone he never had sex with I would still consider that cheating, as is Internet sex, chat line sex, etc.

There are a lot of reasons and ways people cheat, it's not always about sex.


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## knittigan (Sep 2, 2011)

Siren said:


> it presupposes that the marriage wasn't already broken to begin with. I'm not saying its a justification, it's just a logical flaw in your argument - the other woman is responsible for her part in the destruction but if the destruction was already done by the time she came along then what did she actually do?
> 
> And let's not forget that cheating is more than just two horny people hooking up. There are emotional cheaters, too. If someone I was seeing had an emotional connection to someone he never had sex with I would still consider that cheating, as is Internet sex, chat line sex, etc.
> 
> There are a lot of reasons and ways people cheat, it's not always about sex.


This was pretty much my experience and why I've been really frustrated and disappointed with the way that infidelity has been discussed in this thread since the morality patrol rode in. Don't get me wrong, the thought of being involved in another situation with a married man literally makes my stomach turn and I do realise that some people _do_ cheat out of sheer boredom sometimes, but I would wager that the percentage of people who do is smaller than most of us would realise. 

Until I experienced what it is like to unknowingly be "the other women," I held the same opinions as many of you and I think what it comes down to is that it's a lot easier to stereotype the people who do in one way or another get involved in these situations from some kind of moral high horse than it is to recognise the fact that not a single one of us can definitively say what we would or would not do in every set of circumstances. We might not cheat on our spouses if we were feeling sexually unfulfilled, but until we have been truly unhappy and unsatisfied in a relationship that we cannot (or think that we cannot) for whatever reason leave, it really isn't fair to pass judgment on the people who do. The difference between us and them is less a case of morality and more a case of circumstance and frankly, I think that it must be nice to have never been unhappy enough to feel like cheating was a valid option. The whole married slimebag/immoral, homewrecking other woman/innocent, wronged, sympathetic wife shtick doesn't really have a whole lot of bearing on what actually goes on in these situations.

In my own experience and also in the serial cheating that was a part of my parents' marriage, infidelity was a symptom of the fact that, in both cases, the cheater wasn't getting his needs met. Obviously, sneaking around behind their spouses' backs didn't and was never going to fix that in any way. The more appropriate course of action would have been to have had a conversation with their spouses about what needed to change to make them happy, but sometimes that doesn't work and other times I don't even necessarily think that the people involved are able to articulate on a conscious level what's missing. They're just unhappy and they desperately want something to change.

It's really easy to isolate the sexual aspect of an extramarital relationship as what the cheater is looking for, but what a lot of people forget is that for most of us, sex is a way in which we get closer to people. I think that it's a gross misrepresentation to paint cheaters as horny married guys who prowl bars and craigslist, hide their rings, and generally just do their best to find an attractive, available woman who they can fall into bed with. People like that _do_ exist, but they certainly aren't representative. That's a stereotype that I feel has really coloured and limited this discussion. A lot of the time infidelity is something that cheaters actually fight against or something that happens gradually that they give into because of other circumstances. I'm not denying or minimising the fact that they do ultimately still make the decision to cheat on their spouses and that infidelity is enormously harmful to everyone involved, but for god's sake, have a little compassion.


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## emerald sea (Jun 4, 2011)

Siren said:


> I understand your logic and you actually make a good point but it presupposes that the marriage wasn't already broken to begin with. I'm not saying its a justification, it's just a logical flaw in your argument - the other woman is responsible for her part in the destruction but if the destruction was already done by the time she came along then what did she actually do?
> 
> And let's not forget that cheating is more than just two horny people hooking up. There are emotional cheaters, too. If someone I was seeing had an emotional connection to someone he never had sex with I would still consider that cheating, as is Internet sex, chat line sex, etc.
> 
> There are a lot of reasons and ways people cheat, it's not always about sex.


i fully agree with your second two paragraphs. emotional cheating is _at least_ as devastating as physical cheating if not much more so, and my opinion is that long-term cheating is more often a result of broken emotional connections in the marriage than of anything else. (even the lack of sex in a marriage, which may lead one spouse to look elsewhere, can sometimes be traced back to a broken emotional connection). people - male and female - crave a deep emotional connection with someone they love, and this connection is as crucial a part of marital intimacy as is sex. any relationship is built on trust, and the closer the relationship, the deeper the trust must be. marriage is supposed to be the closest (i.e. most intimate) human relationship...which also makes the partners exceptionally vulnerable to hurt from each other, because the closer you are, and the more you trust someone, the more they are able to hurt you if they violate your trust or your relationship. so any breach in a marriage relationship has the potential to be the most excruciating relational pain in existence, because a marriage can be the closest, most trusting relationship in existence. so the more problems there are in a marriage, the more pain can be there. 

the key factor here, though, is trust. cheating causes a specific sort of devastation ~ violation of trust. without trust, no relationship can survive. a relationship with major problems can recover, but a relationship without trust cannot. many people find it absolutely impossible to recover after trust is broken. in some cases trust can be restored but it can be a long, deeply painful journey. if trust cannot be restored, the relationship will either string along forever miserably without any closeness (if divorce is not an option because of the kids or the finances) or end permanently. 

yes, there may be trust issues before cheating occurs. but trust issues without a root in infidelity are an issue of self-image or past relationships, and counseling can restore proper self-image and trust in a current, faithful partner. but trust issues caused by violation of the current marriage are far deeper, and worsen the existing trust issues to a point that they are highly likely to be incurable. so cheating is still destructive even if the spouse already has trust issues. given that many people will not divorce for the sake of their children, or because of the financial cost involved, this consigns to a life of misery together after the affair...and their children may be subjected to their parents' fights for years (which can be psychologically damaging to them). 

i agree that emotional disconnection can exist long before another woman comes onto the scene...and any spouse can "check out" from a marriage without any cheating. the emotional fault line may be there. but this inherent divide need not widen nor become a split. it can exist without forming into a wide gap, so long as you don't have any major catastrophes. (and, unlike a fault line, this divide can be sealed up through re-connecting.) dealing with underlying cheating is just such a catastrophe. like an earthquake high on the Richter scale, cheating destabilizes the foundation of the marriage by shifting it along those fault lines, shaking up all that everything is built on, causing all sorts of devastation. fault lines are a risk, yes, and they exist in many marriages; but earthquakes are a disaster. it is going to be tons more difficult, if not impossible, to restore the landscape from the devastation from an earthquake high on the Richter scale, than to take preventive measures if you live near a fault line. 

so even if there are already fault lines in a marriage (emotional disconnection or devastation) before cheating, much of the time - with counseling and the willingness of both partners to work at it and make it work - these problems can be resolved. i've seen it happen, actually in the past couple of weeks, with someone who spilled all their marriage problems to me, whom i counseled and then told to go to an official counselor (who told them the same things i had told them), who had all but given up on their marriage beforehand. they had said it was over, dead, and divorce had been an option for some time. so, yes, even if a marriage is broken already, it can still be restored. 

all cheating does is make such a fault line worse, and at the very worst, can cause _irreparable_ earthquake-style damage. at the very least, cheating deepens the existing divide, possibly making it impossible for one spouse to trust the other ever again. without trust, no relationship can endure. do not underestimate how ESSENTIAL trust is. so, yes, cheating either causes destruction...or worsens it to a degree that may be irreversible. either way, the result is destructive.


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## Siren (Jun 25, 2011)

seastallion said:


> i fully agree with your second two paragraphs. emotional cheating is _at least_ as devastating as physical cheating if not much more so, and my opinion is that long-term cheating is more often a result of broken emotional connections in the marriage than of anything else. (even the lack of sex in a marriage, which may lead one spouse to look elsewhere, can sometimes be traced back to a broken emotional connection). people - male and female - crave a deep emotional connection with someone they love, and this connection is as crucial a part of marital intimacy as is sex. any relationship is built on trust, and the closer the relationship, the deeper the trust must be. marriage is supposed to be the closest (i.e. most intimate) human relationship...which also makes the partners exceptionally vulnerable to hurt from each other, because the closer you are, and the more you trust someone, the more they are able to hurt you if they violate your trust or your relationship. so any breach in a marriage relationship has the potential to be the most excruciating relational pain in existence, because a marriage can be the closest, most trusting relationship in existence. so the more problems there are in a marriage, the more pain can be there.
> 
> the key factor here, though, is trust. cheating causes a specific sort of devastation ~ violation of trust. without trust, no relationship can survive. a relationship with major problems can recover, but a relationship without trust cannot. many people find it absolutely impossible to recover after trust is broken. in some cases trust can be restored but it can be a long, deeply painful journey. if trust cannot be restored, the relationship will either string along forever miserably without any closeness (if divorce is not an option because of the kids or the finances) or end permanently.
> 
> ...


My first paragraph addressed the fact that the responsibility of the other woman for destroying a maRriage is lessened what that marriage is already broken, not anything about trust.


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## Persephone (Nov 14, 2009)

This convoluted, endless debate is why I don't bother with monogamy, once I realized it's not in our nature to be monogamous. If it was, fighting the urge to cheat wouldn't be so difficult for about 80% of married couples- wouldn't that be fighting TO fulfill your nature? Who needs such a great struggle to decide to, say, eat when you're ravenous, or socialize, because people are by nature social animals?


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## Persephone (Nov 14, 2009)

Eerie said:


> ^ If may not be in YOUR nature, but believe it or not there are people out there who never have had the desire to be unfaithful. Don't try to sum up every person based of your personal experiences.


I actually never had the desire to be unfaithful since I am asexual after all (and I doubt I will be- I have trouble sustaining interest in one person as is). I'm not basing this on personal experience since I've actually never been in a marriage or a relationship. Statistics (80% of the marriages had a partner who cheated) and genetics (given that neither of our closest relatives, bonobos or chimps are actually monogamous) says it all for me. A few anecdotes don't sway me at all, although I will grant that there are (and you've probably met) such paragons of virtue, though to be sure, I don't really see being monogamous as virtuous, not breaking a "contract" surely is.


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## Alysaria (Jul 7, 2009)

We all have different wants, needs, and expectations from every relationship (not just romantic). There is every possibility that someone can let you down, give a false impression, or hurt you. Life is a risk. Short of becoming a hermit, that risk will always be there.

Some people can only really connect on an intimate one-on-one level, and for them, sharing isn't an option....and having that bond broken is devastating. 

Some people can bond easily with multiple people and not ever feel slighted if any of them are likewise comfortable expanding their horizons.

Some people don't really make deep connections at all and can take or leave a commitment. 

Some people are very fond of their mate but it's more about tradition or a deep-seated sense of duty and morality that motivates them. 

There are a million different scenarios....and given enough stipulations, I could make the argument for either stance. What it comes down to, though, is personal. I've given my point of view on different aspects...and while no one can say they are without judgment when it comes to a particular situation, could you say no to Hugh Jackman seducing you with butter? XD


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

Alysaria said:


> I've given my point of view on different aspects...and while no one can say they are without judgment when it comes to a particular situation, could you say no to Hugh Jackman seducing you with butter? XD


I don't know who Hugh Jackman is but I know about Last Tango in Paris. If any one who comes near me with butter in hand. . . It's not going to end well.


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## kristle (Oct 21, 2010)

I guess I would have a lot more respect for *purposeful *other women if they were straightforward about the situation. Something along the lines of, "yea, I date married men because it gives me a rush, and I don't care about the people it hurts." I mean how hard is that? We all know it's the ugly truth so I don't get why the facade of denial. Why pretend it doesn't hurt anybody, or you're somehow not responsible for your own actions?

If your morals allow you to harm innocent people and feel no guilt at least stand up for them. Don't pretend the situation is something that it isn't. If you're so ashamed of your morals that you have and can't be honest about their effects then maybe it's time to change them to something you don't have to make excuses and work-arounds for. Because I assure you, the only people deluded enough to buy that BS is you. So you might as well be straight up about it.

_
**I would like to reemphasize this is not directed at those who unknowingly dated a married man and did the right thing when they found out. The two situations are not even comparable._


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

I wouldn't date a married man because firstly, he belongs to someone else, and he and I could have no connection at all - plus it would just be an icky feeling, like borrowing someone elses vibrator. No thanks.

I think it would also diminish what marriage means to me, having this idea seeping in psychologically that -this- is what marriage means? Banging other people? I can't participate in something that shits on the things I find sacred. I think in the end it would be very damaging to me.

I would also have too much empathy for the wife.


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## Digger Blue (Dec 1, 2010)

Finaille said:


> I have been the 'other woman' and now I feel like a horses behind.
> 
> Keep in mind this was a few years ago... but he completely took advantage of my better nature when all along I actually viewed him as a father figure and caring friend. I don't know what his rationalize was with having me as his other woman... it might have been because I was nice to him, he wanted sexual activity he wasn't getting at home, I was pretty and younger, I don't know... all I know is he lied his butt off to me and emotionally manipulated me to stay in a situation I was not comfortable with. When I told him I was done, he would call me, text me, anything to tell me how he was going to kill himself without me.


You should'a mailed him a dagger. 
Digger Blue


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## Digger Blue (Dec 1, 2010)

Two Thumbs Down. Guess you'd have to have been caught at the time, huh?
Digger Blue


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## Digger Blue (Dec 1, 2010)

perennialurker said:


> All people are certainly entitled to their own religious and moral beliefs, but it is clear that a woman who abets a man in this cheating cannot rightly expect to have a man all to _herself_.


I will add to this that once either or both have cheated, they have soiled the marriage. While forgiveness may come, the marriage now has an ugly past. 
Digger Blue


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## AussieChick (Dec 27, 2010)

Promethea said:


> I would also have too much empathy for the wife.
> 
> 
> > I did exactly this when I found out that I knew one of the wives in question.I felt horrible for sleeping with her husband even though I did not know that he was married when our affair began.I wanted to write her a letter of apology or even go visit her and tell her to beware because her husband was a lying ,cheating piece of work.That perhaps she did not know him as well as she thought he did.But I chickened out because I was that other woman he slept with who stabbed her in the back,and I felt that she would believe his word over mine.
> ...


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