# Te and Fe manipulation. What is it?



## Satan Claus (Aug 6, 2013)

I've heard of it and I have some ideas of what they can be but what are some common examples of Te and Fe manipulation?


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## Octavian (Nov 24, 2013)

Te/Fe manipulation is only really prevalent when Ni is in the dominant or auxiliary slot. Extraverted Judging types are without a doubt controlling to some degree. (Don't even let the FJs tell you otherwise.) But NJ control in particular, is more oriented towards making you "choose" to do what they want you to do, as opposed to the Draconian approach more frequently seen in the SJs.

Fe focuses on social dynamics.

Te focuses on the underlying "systems" upon which things "objectively" turn.

Te specifically, doesn't manipulate "you," per se, it manipulates the environment in such a way as to "force" you into certain behaviors and actions. Using chess as an example. Te supported or lead by Ni, will make a string of moves early in the game relative to what they've intuited about you, tipping the odds in their favor early on. You initially perceive yourself as having made decent moves, perhaps even winning at some point. But as time progresses you find yourself being cornered until finally, you can see very clearly that your downfall is around the corner, but you can't really do anything about it. That moment was constructed at the start of the game.

To quote an ENTJ I grew up playing chess with "to me the best part of the game isn't beating someone abruptly without them realizing. It's watching their face as they realize I'm going to win, and them realizing that it's too late for them to get out of it." That's Ni-Te/Te-Ni strategy, make the opponent beat himself, make the opponent willingly walk into premeditated traps, give them no choice but to lose. 

xNFJ manipulation is extremely fascinating though. I've dated an INFJ for a year now so the following is conjecture based on my observations of her (as well as typology shit I've studied.) Basically, she is very tuned in to her collective, the group she has gathered, the group she cares about, and her general source of harmony. Fi harmony exists independently of the group, but in the case of INFJ, even their internal harmony is dependent upon the external group dynamic. When someone disrupts the dynamic or threatens it in anyway, she turns the collective against them and pressures them into behaviors that result in a sort of equilibrium. The way she goes about doing this is not aggressive or "nasty" at all. She's pleasant, cordial, and _strategic_ the entire way through and it's almost as if the person has had a natural change of heart / reconfiguring of traits and behavior (but they didn't, she caused it.)

The above does have positive effects in that no cheating, lying, or other unethical actions take place within her collective, but it's manipulative all the same. It's apparent that she's capable of forcing a person out of the collective, and even capable of bringing an outcast into it, met with a warm reception, because she's so adept at controlling the underlying, unseen dynamic.

When an xNTJ manipulates it you it will seem as if the gods themselves have conspired against you, when an xNFJ manipulates you, you will have _no idea that you were manipulated by them._ Truly the key is that when you pair Je with Ni, they "attack" that which is not seen. I guess a dividing factor would be Fe being more likely to engage personally.


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## SilverRain (May 15, 2014)

Octavian said:


> xNFJ manipulation is extremely fascinating though. I've dated an INFJ for a year now so the following is conjecture based on my observations of her (as well as typology shit I've studied.) Basically, she is very tuned in to her collective, the group she has gathered, the group she cares about, and her general source of harmony. Fi harmony exists independently of the group, but in the case of INFJ, even their internal harmony is dependent upon the external group dynamic. When someone disrupts the dynamic or threatens it in anyway, she turns the collective against them and pressures them into behaviors that result in a sort of equilibrium. The way she goes about doing this is not aggressive or "nasty" at all. She's pleasant, cordial, and _strategic_ the entire way through and it's almost as if the person has had a natural change of heart / reconfiguring of traits and behavior (but they didn't, she caused it.)


That's an almost perfect description of what I've experienced a couple times. A couple months ago I attended a group function a few times, changed the dynamics, and the INFJ manipulated me into leaving the group. The only addition to your scenario is that she also engaged in an emotional ambush that was over the top nasty, in private so she could continue to be the wise matriarch of the group. Nothing against INFJ's, some of whom have been my good friends and many of whom would allow themselves to be manipulated rather than destroy the harmony.


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## Octavian (Nov 24, 2013)

Seagreen said:


> That's an almost perfect description of what I've experienced a couple times. A couple months ago I attended a group function a few times, changed the dynamics, and the INFJ manipulated me into leaving the group. The only addition to your scenario is that she also engaged in an emotional ambush that was over the top nasty, in private so she could continue to be the wise matriarch of the group. Nothing against INFJ's, some of whom have been my good friends and many of whom would allow themselves to be manipulated rather than destroy the harmony.


My grandma does it in a nasty way as well, she's an ENFJ.


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## Cellar Door (Jun 3, 2012)

It sounds to me like the INFJ saints everyone on these forums refer to are probably mistyped ISFJs.


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## Satan Claus (Aug 6, 2013)

Cellar Door said:


> It sounds to me like like the INFJ "saints" everyone on these forums refer to are probably mistyped ISFJs.


I think a lot of INFJ's are mistyped. They're actually INFP's or ISFJ's.


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## Cellar Door (Jun 3, 2012)

Satan Claus said:


> I think a lot of INFJ's are mistyped. They're actually INFP's or ISFJ's.


Yeah, it's pretty clear too, I like ISFJs and ESFJs a lot, and real INFJs are okay as long as they aren't actively trying to manipulate you. INFPs universally hate me for obvious reasons, they probably hate you too.


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## WinterFox (Sep 19, 2013)

This is how my INTJ dad manipulates me:
If you continue to fail your exams, I won't help you out with your school fees anymore!

This is how my ENTJ teacher manipulates me:
If you continue to do poorly in class, I will make sure to inform your parents

And last but not least, this is how my ESFJ mum manipulates my INTJ dad:
I purposely hurt and injure myself so that he can feel guilty and apologise to me!



There is a huge difference between how Te manipulates vs how Fe manipulates, IMO.


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## ScientiaOmnisEst (Oct 2, 2013)

WinterFox said:


> This is how my INTJ dad manipulates me:
> If you continue to fail your exams, I won't help you out with your school fees anymore!


Interesting. My ISTJ mother does the same thing. Never actually thought of it as manipulation.


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## Aelthwyn (Oct 27, 2010)

@Octavian described it perfectly, and I particularly appreciate showing how manipulation can be used in every-day interactions and even positive ways. While manipulation _is_ often misused for selfish or petty reasons (and NJs may cause deep emotional/mental stress in others through it) the basic strategy of how it works can also be applied to interactions beyond the usual connotation of the word. In a way, it is surprisingly non-confrontational for an extraverted judger, in that it brings about change without necessarily bringing the issue out in the open and butting heads over it - although it is certainly less...democratic you might say.


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## tangosthenes (Oct 29, 2011)

This thread has made me afraid and validated my paranoia.

I see people constantly doing what seems overboard. Now I feel justified in calling them conniving fucks. What can I do about it? Well...nothing, and that's why they are fucks.


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## Straystuff (May 23, 2014)

I can only talk for myself here but I think the Fe -manipulation is pretty much a form of puppet mastery. 

I know people close to me better than they do sometimes, and I know exactly which buttons to push to make them think they want to do a thing x. Also it's kind of like playing chess in the sense that I try to think few steps forward. If I say this to this person they are going to say this to this other person who is going to do this to this person. Pretty often the person who I decided to manipulate doesn't even realize the initiator of the sudden occurence was me.

I think I made it sound horrible but it really isn't. I use "manipulation" pretty often in dumb situations, e.g. when I want to go out and party and my friends claim that they don't have enough money to come with me. After some peruasion they do find some money


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## SweetPickles (Mar 19, 2012)

Cellar Door said:


> Yeah, it's pretty clear too, I like ISFJs and ESFJs a lot, and real INFJs are okay as long as they aren't actively trying to manipulate you. INFPs universally hate me for obvious reasons, they probably hate you too.


Hahaha! I like INTPs a lot. I love the "they probably hate you too". :laughing: I think INFPs for the most part are pretty accepting unless someone is a complete jerk regardless of type.


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## Grad0507 (Dec 12, 2013)

Octavian said:


> Te/Fe manipulation is only really prevalent when Ni is in the dominant or auxiliary slot. Extraverted Judging types are without a doubt controlling to some degree. (Don't even let the FJs tell you otherwise.) But NJ control in particular, is more oriented towards making you "choose" to do what they want you to do, as opposed to the Draconian approach more frequently seen in the SJs.
> 
> Fe focuses on social dynamics.
> 
> ...


The problem I have with this is that INFJ uses Ni, Fe, and _Ti_, not Te.


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## Grad0507 (Dec 12, 2013)

WinterFox said:


> This is how my INTJ dad manipulates me:
> If you continue to fail your exams, I won't help you out with your school fees anymore!
> 
> This is how my ENTJ teacher manipulates me:
> ...


This is how my INTJ dad manipulates me:
If you drive to see your boyfriend, who I don't like, in the car I gave you, then I'll report the car as stolen to the police.

This is how my ISFJ manipulates my INTJ dad:
"I would like to eat _." After him telling her what the doctor said she shouldn't eat, "Well, I'll just eat crackers then. And that will be my dinner."


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## Grad0507 (Dec 12, 2013)

Btw, some people have claimed that Victoria in the TV show Revenge is INTJ.


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## katalystofawesome (Feb 18, 2014)

Cellar Door said:


> I like ISFJs and ESFJs a lot


Did I see that right? An IxTx who likes ESFJs? *faints* (the positive reinforcement is good for once on the internet)

I have nothing else to add, Fe manipulation is described pretty well already and I don't get Te manipulation either.


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## Raawx (Oct 9, 2013)

katalystofawesome said:


> Did I see that right? An IxTx who likes ESFJs? *faints* (the positive reinforcement is good for once on the internet)
> 
> I have nothing else to add, Fe manipulation is described pretty well already and I don't get Te manipulation either.


INTPs, ESFJs, ISFJs, and ENTPs, are all in the same quadra, meaning they share the same functions. I'd be surprised if they didn't get along.


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## Cellar Door (Jun 3, 2012)

katalystofawesome said:


> Did I see that right? An IxTx who likes ESFJs? *faints* (the positive reinforcement is good for once on the internet)
> 
> I have nothing else to add, Fe manipulation is described pretty well already and I don't get Te manipulation either.


According to socionics, ESFJs and INTPs are duals, so they better like each other. If someone on the internet says they're an INTP or ENTP and says they don't like any ISFJs or ESFJs then they're probably mistyped, mistyping other people, or both. 

NTJs on the other hand, it makes sense why you don't see eye to eye, you have a totally different world view and you're opposite dichotomy focused as well. I have mixed results with NTJs, we don't always agree on everything, but there's usually mutual respect. I'm friends with one ESFP who I've known for a long time, but usually I don't connect automatically with SFPs. Some I've met don't like me at all, but given time and common interests it can work out. ISFPs...I don't know if I know any.


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## ladypancake (Apr 20, 2014)

ENFJ mother:
I have failed as a mother, everything I do is bad, I don't know where I went wrong, etc. etc.

_Come on._


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## S8on (Nov 23, 2013)

Fe manipulates for what they believe is best for the group. (harmony)

Te manipulates for what they believe is best for an objective. (success)

In both cases, what is "best" is determined by Si/Ni


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## katalystofawesome (Feb 18, 2014)

Raawx said:


> INTPs, ESFJs, ISFJs, and ENTPs, are all in the same quadra, meaning they share the same functions. I'd be surprised if they didn't get along.





Cellar Door said:


> According to socionics, ESFJs and INTPs are duals, so they better like each other. If someone on the internet says they're an INTP or ENTP and says they don't like any ISFJs or ESFJs then they're probably mistyped, mistyping other people, or both.
> 
> NTJs on the other hand, it makes sense why you don't see eye to eye, you have a totally different world view and you're opposite dichotomy focused as well.


You'd think that but alas. I spend a lot of time scrolling through the ESFJ tag on tumblr and the only feedback from INTPs is that of dislike or at least severe distaste. Though, people on the internet do tend to demonise ESFJs, so it is possible they're just venting negative emotions onto us. We're supposed to be the typical popular person (we're not really), and so many introverts and "nerds" with bad experiences in school etc do tend to pin it on us. Tis a cruel world.

Saying that, one of my closest friends online is an INTJ, but she is a bit more mature, so our opposing views aren't so much problematic as they are a way of enlightenment.


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## Cellar Door (Jun 3, 2012)

katalystofawesome said:


> You'd think that but alas. I spend a lot of time scrolling through the ESFJ tag on tumblr and the only feedback from INTPs is that of dislike or at least severe distaste. Though, people on the internet do tend to demonise ESFJs, so it is possible they're just venting negative emotions onto us. We're supposed to be the typical popular person (we're not really), and so many introverts and "nerds" with bad experiences in school etc do tend to pin it on us. Tis a cruel world.
> 
> Saying that, one of my closest friends online is an INTJ, but she is a bit more mature, so our opposing views aren't so much problematic as they are a way of enlightenment.


The general population doesn't know anything about typology and are making comments based on close to zero legitimate research. I think that people like to rip on SJs because they see them as the general population, and they put them down in order to boost their own self esteem. Most ESFJ attacks are based on stereotypes and nothing more.


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## Mendi the ISFJ (Jul 28, 2011)

Octavian said:


> xNFJ manipulation is extremely fascinating though. I've dated an INFJ for a year now so the following is conjecture based on my observations of her (as well as typology shit I've studied.) Basically, she is very tuned in to her collective, the group she has gathered, the group she cares about, and her general source of harmony. Fi harmony exists independently of the group, but in the case of INFJ, even their internal harmony is dependent upon the external group dynamic. When someone disrupts the dynamic or threatens it in anyway, she turns the collective against them and pressures them into behaviors that result in a sort of equilibrium. The way she goes about doing this is not aggressive or "nasty" at all. She's pleasant, cordial, and _strategic_ the entire way through and it's almost as if the person has had a natural change of heart / reconfiguring of traits and behavior (but they didn't, she caused it.)
> 
> The above does have positive effects in that no cheating, lying, or other unethical actions take place within her collective, but it's manipulative all the same. It's apparent that she's capable of forcing a person out of the collective, and even capable of bringing an outcast into it, met with a warm reception, because she's so adept at controlling the underlying, unseen dynamic.
> 
> When an xNTJ manipulates it you it will seem as if the gods themselves have conspired against you, when an xNFJ manipulates you, you will have _no idea that you were manipulated by them._ Truly the key is that when you pair Je with Ni, they "attack" that which is not seen. I guess a dividing factor would be Fe being more likely to engage personally.


Id like to hear more about this. I think it would help me envision it more if you had some example of real life application. Im surrounded by INFJs (my sister, mom, and 2 closest friends).


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