# Too Many Aptitudes



## drmiller100

Someone pointed this article out to me.

http://megasociety.org/noesis/138/aptitude.html


I relate to this. I'm pretty damn good at half the things listed. I will point out a few things I'm NOT good at which are NOT listed. I'm horrible at feelings and emotions. I have no empathy. I am not very good at relationships, or understanding other people's feelings or my own. 
I'm horrible at music. I'm horrible at colors. I'm horrible at social structures, and "getting along." I'm horrible at repetitive tasks. 

I've had over 20 different "careers" in my life, and had probably 50 different jobs. I can focus, but I also have a short interest span.

I think society doesn't need people like me, or want people like me, until we go to war, people start starving, or life gets shitty. Then I shine, and I help people.

Atlas Shrugged is a favorite book. I am John Galt, and I did invent a way towards almost free energy, and no one gives a shit. 

I enjoy life, and I'm alive. For a while the first was untrue, and the second was in doubt.


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## Swelly

You what m8?


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## Angelic Gardevoir

drmiller100 said:


> Atlas Shrugged is a favorite book. I am John Galt, and *I did invent a way towards almost free energy*, and no one gives a shit.


WHAT?! 

...

I'm skeptical, but if this is true, SHARE IT WITH THE WORLD DAMMIT!


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## flummoxed

The OP sounds completely delusional. How old are you to have worked 50 jobs and 20 careers? That would be an insanely large number? And invented free energy? Now you just sound loony. 

But yeah, there's no benefit to being good at 10 different things when you can't work 10 different jobs. The whole foundation of modern society is a "division of labor" and being talented in something you're not doing is pretty worthless.


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## drmiller100

flummoxed said:


> THow old are you to have worked 50 jobs and 20 careers? T.


clearly stated on my profile. One thing I'm not is lazy.


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## flummoxed

drmiller100 said:


> clearly stated on my profile. One thing I'm not is lazy.


So you've switched jobs every 6 months your adult life?


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## Old Intern

drmiller100 said:


> clearly stated on my profile. One thing I'm not is lazy.


I've read enough of your posts to think you are quite a pleasant guy. I hear 20 job/career stretches or staying about 4 years in one place is typical now. So much has been changing so fast since mid 2000's. As far as jobs and job markets. -hard to figure out where your best bet is. You might be frustrated at the moment but I think you will find your way. Better to be like you are than the guy faithful to a job he hates so he can retire and then be disappointed how that wasn't worth it.

BTW can't get your link to work tried pasting it.


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## drmiller100

flummoxed said:


> So you've switched jobs every 6 months your adult life?


more often than that when you put it that way.

for a long time i was a business consultant doing short term gigs. I was at a fortune 50 company for a year. I helped redesign their GL, Payroll for 2 divisions, and worked on a user interface. Is that one job, or 4?

for one 5 year stint i was summer Landscaper, ran a groomer program, sold firewood, installed sprinkler systems, worked at chamber of commerce, and ran the search and rescue unit for the county, that is off the top of my head.

For landscaping, I averaged 12 new landscapes for high end vacation homes a summer. Is that one job, or 12? We did retaining walls, waterfalls, mowing, hydroseed, sod, and sprinkler systems for each job.


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## drmiller100

Old Intern said:


> I've read enough of your posts to think you are quite a pleasant guy. I hear 20 job/career stretches or staying about 4 years in one place is typical now. So much has been changing so fast since mid 2000's. As far as jobs and job markets. -hard to figure out where your best bet is. You might be frustrated at the moment but I think you will find your way. Better to be like you are than the guy faithful to a job he hates so he can retire and then be disappointed how that wasn't worth it.


I appreciate your kind thoughts. 

But I'm happy swapping jobs. Same job for a long time? Ick. 
right now I've got a pretty good gig teaching at a university. 11 week quarters, teach 4 courses at a time. Every 12 weeks new classes, new students, new drama, new new new.

ENTP 8/7 Sx stacking


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## Old Intern

drmiller100 said:


> I appreciate your kind thoughts.
> 
> But I'm happy swapping jobs. Same job for a long time? Ick.
> right now I've got a pretty good gig teaching at a university. 11 week quarters, teach 4 courses at a time. Every 12 weeks new classes, new students, new drama, new new new.
> 
> ENTP 8/7 Sx stacking


I'm envious - thought you were complaining or upset.


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## flummoxed

drmiller100 said:


> I was at a fortune 50 company for a year. I helped redesign their GL, Payroll for 2 divisions, and worked on a user interface. Is that one job, or 4?


It's obviously only one..



drmiller100 said:


> For landscaping, I averaged 12 new landscapes for high end vacation homes a summer. Is that one job, or 12? We did retaining walls, waterfalls, mowing, hydroseed, sod, and sprinkler systems for each job.


This is also obviously only a single job. You don't count a new job every time you start a new project..


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## drmiller100

flummoxed said:


> It's obviously only one..
> 
> 
> This is also obviously only a single job. You don't count a new job every time you start a new project..


Interesting. In the first case I did completely different things, but got a paycheck from the same company every time.

In the second case, i did similar things for different people, and got pay checks from different people.

What defines "job" to you?


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## Roady82

drmiller100 said:


> Someone pointed this article out to me.
> 
> http://megasociety.org/noesis/138/aptitude.html
> 
> 
> I relate to this. I'm pretty damn good at half the things listed. I will point out a few things I'm NOT good at which are NOT listed. I'm horrible at feelings and emotions. I have no empathy. I am not very good at relationships, or understanding other people's feelings or my own.
> I'm horrible at music. I'm horrible at colors. I'm horrible at social structures, and "getting along." I'm horrible at repetitive tasks.
> 
> I've had over 20 different "careers" in my life, and had probably 50 different jobs. I can focus, but I also have a short interest span.
> 
> I think society doesn't need people like me, or want people like me, until we go to war, people start starving, or life gets shitty. Then I shine, and I help people.
> 
> Atlas Shrugged is a favorite book. I am John Galt, and I did invent a way towards almost free energy, and no one gives a shit.
> 
> I enjoy life, and I'm alive. For a while the first was untrue, and the second was in doubt.


I've read that ENFP's can be difficult follow because the way our brains process shit. It's difficulty for me to create a coherent flow for a reader when I've already thought about everything I want to say in the entire post. Here goes:

I relate with this article both in characteristics, and in its overall point. I have a very significant difficulty in anything derived for social convention. I was recently ask, "just how big are your balls?". I don't question everything out of spite, so, essentially going against everything that I'm "supposed" to do, think, and feel might take a certain amount of balls, to some people. I couldn't imagine doing it any other way, so to me, doesn't take much.

I was raised poor, white trash... Inherently, a predetermined social hierarchy comes with the very definition of "poor, white trash". I added to that by dropping out of high school my sophomore year, but I stopped paying attention sometime around seventh or eighth grade. And to finish out the cliché, I had a "rough" childhood beginning very early that inspired me to leave home at 15, and not return.

When I was 17, I took the test for my GED and joined the military. After the childhood and couple years on my own, I found myself one of the few kids in basic training, loving every minute. To me, nothing could be as bad as what I've already endured. During "basic", my biological father died suddenly of cancer, only strengthening my already developed resilience. I'll try to summarize the next few years to keep things short. By the time I was 25, I had been deployed, already held 4 completely different occupational specialties, was stationed in DC, and I was an assistant program manager for motor-sports programs with a 42 M annual budget of appropriated funds. I was a marketing and advertising representative for the Army National Guard, and worked with Fortune 500 company's as co-sponsor/co-initiative partners as part of my position. So again, "having the balls" to effectively build relationships with people much more "educated", older, and also a lifetime member of the "rich" social economic class (too which, white trash should feel inferior and insecure). By the time I was 30, I was recruited to work for two members of the joint chiefs, a position requiring "more balls" than any typical peer on a daily basis.

My rank never reflected the responsibility of my position, but, like everything else, did not define what I was capable of achieving. I never sat out to prove a point, I never tried to do a "better" job than anyone else. I just did everything the only way I thought it should be done.

I did all of those things, loosely summarized, while supporting a fairly decent drinking habit. I hated how much I drank and especially my inability to function without it. I never wanted to ask for help, fearful I would lose the incredible credibility I had earned in a place I should've never been. I had four sons, and spent most of my time traveling or commuting or working... and nursing drinking. By my mid-20's I was on two blood pressure medications, and would shortly start having some ridiculous anxiety issues. However, I finally had enough. Asked for help, enrolled in a 30 day program, "got disappears" from my position while in-treatment, and after completing rehab, completely left active duty. Once sober, it seemed impossible to continue getting up when I didn't want to, taking my kids to people I didn't want to, commuting three hours a day, that I didn't want to, to go to a position that "should" have made me happy but, was somewhere else I didn't want to be. I thought to myself, "what the hell am I doing all this for"? I built a business plan to start a sawmill company from scratch, and I knew nothing about sawmills or the business. Since then, I've made the business more successful than projected, and have taught myself how to weld... which has led to building sawmills, becoming a business in itself.

It all ties together with this post, because, regardless where I go, or what I do, I seem to have a "nack" for doing anything... Well. I have no idea what I'll do next, or the limits to what I'll try. I've never forgot where I came from, so I now spend a lot of my time, trying to convince other people that they can do whatever it is they want to do as well. This is proving to be my most difficult challenge yet. The "social place" we all inherited during the 80's and 90's, have a concrete like hold in the American psyche. Are there others who have found this? If so, what have you done or found to help?


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## drmiller100

My best knack is fixing things. I have never met anyone who can mcgyver things as well as me, or figure out how a mechanical object works. It is boring to me. 
My undergrad degree is math, with minors in physics and CS. I studied quantum mechanics, and was good enough to follow Einstein's general relativity, but dont' have the patience to do work in that field today. I'm not great at incremental work, I'm truly spectacular at paradigm changes. 
No one likes that, or needs that, or wants that in their life. People get shot for that, and I'm just lazy enough to build shit to prove it, and then let it go and not get caught. 

When done, you can't fix people. It has taken me 45 years to figure that out, and I still lose sight of that lesson, and I still retreat to fixing other people rather than just accepting them for who and what they are. It is a great safety mechanism as it keeps others from getting too close. 
The flip side is I am lonely, and Roady82, in your post I sense a loneliness in you.

I have run into people like you and I who drive to make change, to fix, to implement our views on the world. The problem for us is we see the big picture well enough to realize it does not matter what we do; people are going to do what they want to do, they do not want help, they do not want to be improved, they do not want to be changed. 

You and I don't want to be changeD. We want to change ourselves, and do it ourselves, and be in control of ourselves. 

It turns out no one worth knowing wants to be fixed. 

So, we need to find purpose in something else. That I struggle with.

I'm an inventor of shit no one wants. I'm a professor and teach shit no one wants to learn. I'm a friend who people use. I'm a mechanic of cars which will be crushed in a few short years.

My kids are almost grown. That has kept me alive for a while. I like sex, and that brings me numbing. I want to be loved, and that brings me some hope.


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## Old Intern

*@*drmiller100 What do you mean by fix people? (relationships I presume). And what is it you wish from students that isn't there?
I'm just curious. You sound like you have a good life, so why wouldn't you find a partner (if that is what you want) with whom you can fix or change something out side yourselves - with?


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## drmiller100

Old Intern said:


> *@*drmiller100 What do you mean by fix people? (relationships I presume). And what is it you wish from students that isn't there?
> I'm just curious. You sound like you have a good life, so why wouldn't you find a partner (if that is what you want) with whom you can fix or change something out side yourselves - with?


Once upon a time I fell in love with a lady who felt unloved, and felt she would never have enough money. I loved her with all my soul, and gave her a million dollars. She still felt unloved, and she felt she would never have enough money. 15 years and most of my liver I gave to that marriage.
Once upon a time I fell in love with a lady and provided her and her kids a home, a place to live, and protection from the guy who beat her. She destroyed us, she tried to destroy me, she went back to him. 
Once upon a time I came across a lady who was broken and wounded.  I was broken and wounded. Looking back, We fixed ourselves around each other, and when we were done working on each other in that way, there was nothing left of us to grow towards. Three years. 

Teaching is the best job I've had in MANY years. but when done, students don't really want ot learn - they want the degree. And that is ok - it is my job to make the degree meaningful. But how many students can I realistically reach in my life? Will it matter in the history of human kind?

I think I need to find my meaning in life by myself. I need to figure out why. Someone else is not going to make me complete, whole. Someone else can't give me meaning.


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## Old Intern

drmiller100 said:


> Once upon a time I fell in love with a lady who felt unloved, and felt she would never have enough money. I loved her with all my soul, and gave her a million dollars. She still felt unloved, and she felt she would never have enough money. 15 years and most of my liver I gave to that marriage.
> Once upon a time I fell in love with a lady and provided her and her kids a home, a place to live, and protection from the guy who beat her. She destroyed us, she tried to destroy me, she went back to him.
> Once upon a time I came across a lady who was broken and wounded. I was broken and wounded. Looking back, We fixed ourselves around each other, and when we were done working on each other in that way, there was nothing left of us to grow towards. Three years.
> 
> Teaching is the best job I've had in MANY years. but when done, students don't really want ot learn - they want the degree. And that is ok - it is my job to make the degree meaningful. But how many students can I realistically reach in my life? Will it matter in the history of human kind?
> 
> I think I need to find my meaning in life by myself. I need to figure out why. Someone else is not going to make me complete, whole. Someone else can't give me meaning.


Have you heard of MGTOW? some of these guys have several layers of issues but part of the concept is good. (Men going their own way), one complaint is that men love women but women just extract resources and attention from men.

I think you nailed one problem, the idea that your spouse gives you meaning instead of pursuing meaning together. Men think they love women by being the hero, but that makes them want to find a broken bird. What they don't see is this is their own need they are trying to meet (it can go the other way with the woman being the fixer too).

If you find somebody who isn't broken, (by your estimation) doesn't mean automatically you won't have opportunity to "be the man".

Then again what do I know, just telling you what I see.


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## drmiller100

Old Intern, 'tis all good, and I appreciate your comments and discussion. 

I need to find me, and be me, and be happy being me, and I need to be complete being me. Someone else is not going to complete me or make me complete. I'm in the stage I know this is where I am headed, but I am not there yet. I am in the transition, and it is worrisome, and uncomfortable, and painful. 

I have a huge complex for saving - the White Knight Syndrome. I come by it honestly. I no longer date ladies who need fixing, but I still get caught trying to fix, and when that happens, a strong, mature, powerful woman blows me out of her life. My love life is a sidenote to this thread, and the thread was inspired by Roady. 

I just went and watched the new Mad Max movie with my daughter. Furioso is ever so desirable to me. 

The end of the movie has this quote:

“Where must we go, we who wander this wasteland, in search of our better selves."


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## drmiller100

MGTOW. I spent 27 seconds researching. It looks like a group of bitter men who formed a group to brag how they are going their own way. 

I don't think I am bitter. I have met some spectacular ladies. None have been the right match at the right time for me yet. Obviously most of the problem is me, and I own that, and I am working on it.

I sure the fuck am not going to join a group to go my own way. I want to join a group to find a way to become a great man for a great lady. 

Ayn Rand quote comes to mind. 

“I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.”


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## chanteuse

Have you read "The Martian"? The protagonist is good at fixing things and problems, a space age McGyvor was what the critic said about him.

I thought he could be an ENTP because he's light hearted and full of humor. At first I thought he must be an introvert because to be the only person on Mars must be too isolating for extroverts. However, since ENTP can be rather intorverted extrovert, I thought he's probably an ENTP.

I have about 10 on the list that come natural for me. Some have been developed further, some a bit more dormant from lack of use (circumstantial mostly).

I got your point. When a person has too many naturally good aptitudes, it's hard to settle on one or two. Sometimes I envy those who have a singular passion or talent that they discover early on and full steam ahead with no regret. Would be time well spent.

Glad you got out of fixing SO kind of relationship. That sort of connection will always be one sided, unless you find a woman who's fine at being the subordinate or the weak link that needs to be propped up. I used to love finding potential in a person and did my best to help realizing said potential. When the person resisted or showed slow progress, I'd get impatient or disheartened. 

Anyhow, ENTPs have their life long struggles that seem rather torturous (compare to mine). Best wish and have a wonderful summer time!


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## Old Intern

Something I was thinking with posting the inventor link, is that the ENTP's Fe works for us and against us sometimes. All those inventions were probably brain children that needed to come out, and the "parent" couldn't know for sure if these brainchildren would be received or rejected.

But all these inventions had their place, leading to other progresses. The Ne-Ti mind is built for this exploratory tool building. We are pulled back and forth scratching that Ne-Ti itch, while we need some form of Fe baseline to survive - as the extroverted judgement function, acting in the world. It's a hard choice sometimes. I'm not saying all inventions come from ENTP's of course. Some things are more of a sea change or group influence or other factors, and the lone genius definition seems to inspire people (or sell) more than these other stories.

But I think people make a mistake to define Si as traditionalism. As a P function, Si is not the intellectual will to prefer any particular orthodoxy. Orthodoxy becomes a bi-product. You could say Ne is the filter for novelty and si is the filter for appropriateness or a kind of sameness. Fi draws people of like interests while standing valiantly against those who disagree, and Si has the sense to know what is normal or fits in, in the nonverbal sensing of environments and cultures. These functions help to gather likes and loyalty - good for business.

So just because "we can do everything" doesn't mean we can do everything.

-----------------

@Roady82 change the world is a good starting direction but you are going to have to break it down. I mentioned education changing, but I wasn't saying the whole system will change or that you or I will do that - But you could be a teacher in a non-traditional way. You don't have to have traditional limitations. YouTube, or Blog, or BigBrother program or a volunteer initiative in your community?

Can you work with another person to hash over what you could do?

I have some of what you are dealing with about "absent credentials" but I've seen women my age doing classes that are already outdated or less in demand than what you can learn by getting your hands dirty and searching blogs where everybody is learning newer code techniques.

So. . . . you want to inspire the non-academic? . . . .sounds like the beginning of a value proposition to me!


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## drmiller100

Fe is why we try to help mankind. 

An INTP can invent, but they don't generally think as big as an ENTP, and they do it for different reasons.

ENTP wants to help mankind, even if mankind doens't want helped.

Roady, I am old and cynical, and my conclusion was mankind does not want helped. I'll stick fuck around building some stuff, I'll absolutley help you and support you. 

Idiocracy. It's a thing.


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## Old Intern

drmiller100 said:


> Fe is why we try to help mankind.
> 
> An INTP can invent, but they don't generally think as big as an ENTP, and they do it for different reasons.
> 
> ENTP wants to help mankind, even if mankind doens't want helped.
> 
> Roady, I am old and cynical, and my conclusion was mankind does not want helped. I'll stick fuck around building some stuff, I'll absolutley help you and support you.
> 
> Idiocracy. It's a thing.


Fe may come out of different people in different ways. I'm thinking of an ESFJ roomate from way back, school days. Yes she is a people person and thrives in a group setting, but she's not as altruistic as people seem want to paint Fe to be. Not saying she isn't kind and caring but SHE needs people, as a people person. Because of her own needs, she has a skill set. She reads body language well, she tells Si fueled funny stories very well, she's chatty . . . . .

Our own need to be liked or helpful, can work for us but sometimes against us. Ideally Fe can see the other person they way they see themselves, and see ourselves through that persons eyes, but it doesn't come as automatic to us like it does for ENFJ or ESFJ.


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## Roady82

> @Roady82 change the world is a good starting direction but you are going to have to break it down. I mentioned education changing, but I wasn't saying the whole system will change or that you or I will do that - But you could be a teacher in a non-traditional way. You don't have to have traditional limitations. YouTube, or Blog, or BigBrother program or a volunteer initiative in your community?
> 
> Can you work with another person to hash over what you could do?
> 
> I have some of what you are dealing with about "absent credentials" but I've seen women my age doing classes that are already outdated or less in demand than what you can learn by getting your hands dirty and searching blogs where everybody is learning newer code techniques.
> 
> So. . . . you want to inspire the non-academic? . . . .sounds like the beginning of a value proposition to me!


To answer in short... NO! Your knowledge seems vast in the MBTi/psyc world, but your thinking seems small, to me. I don't want to one teacher inspiring a few. I want to be a few that inspires ONE culture... and that's what I'll be. BUT, realistically, I have much to learn before such a thing can be done with my expected results. AND, I need others like me, but more importantly, I need people not like me to fill in where I lack... People who can organize and people who can implement, people who just care and want to support a larger cause. You see, I think we've all gotten lazy with our thinking... like there are things we just cannot do. Like all the hard work, the courage, the heart it took to create where we are today, is just it. Like the world has arrived at where it will ever be, so now we just sit back and coast through. I don't believe that to be the case, even a little bit.

I often use an analogy to explain how ridiculous the hierarchy of our social economic status has become. I would argue, a doctor cannot perform is great gift to our society, without the great gifts provided by a show maker. The doctor MUST have shoes to do his job, he must. Maybe that doesn't resonate with everyone, NOW. When I was 24 years old, I was a program manager for the NASCAR program with the Army National Guard. That year, we sign our sponsorship package with Hendrick Motor Sports. During our initial visit to Hendricks facility in NC, we toured through the engine department, the (car) body department, etc. We were be led through the facility by our sponsor rep, whose position would be traditionally considered in the executive level in this industry. As she led us around, in her suit, she introduced us to every single person that built every piece of the race cars. Every single person, from the guy who made fenders to the engineer working to improve engine performance, every single person was respected and regarded equally. You see, they fundamentally understood, to build the best race care, you need the best at ever single position. They could have the highest paid engineers and execs, who created the fastest engines in the world... but engineers and engines do not win races, race cars win races... and race cars are built by a lot of people, each doing something they are extraordinary at doing, and they are extraordinary because they absolutely love what they do.


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## Roady82

> ENTP wants to help mankind, even if mankind doens't want helped.
> 
> Roady, I am old and cynical, and my conclusion was mankind does not want helped. I'll stick fuck around building some stuff, I'll absolutely help you and support you.


Sir, I resonate with your frustration like only few can. I think my youth is still on my side, and I think the work that has been done in this area over the past decade may provide some much needed leverage to begin/continue.

I grew up in a very stick, disciplined, abusive home, then went into the military at 17 years old, just got done one year ago. My entire life has been very discipline, I believe this will only add to my ENTP, and in turn, my resolve. On top of those things, I functioned in positions way outside social expectations, and did an awesome job man. I kept going up and up and up, until I realized, happiness is not what you have, it's who you are. I believe operating in these capacities ever further adds to our strengths, giving me esteem fairly early in age... Believe me when I tell you my friend, nothing is outside of my reach.


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## drmiller100

Roady82 said:


> Believe me when I tell you my friend, nothing is outside of my reach.


well, of course. 

And i said I'd help you. 

What is it we're doing? 

Smiles...................


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## Old Intern

Roady82 said:


> To answer in short... NO! Your knowledge seems vast in the MBTi/psyc world, but your thinking seems small, to me. I don't want to one teacher inspiring a few. I want to be a few that inspires ONE culture... and that's what I'll be. BUT, realistically, I have much to learn before such a thing can be done with my expected results. AND, I need others like me, but more importantly, I need people not like me to fill in where I lack... People who can organize and people who can implement, people who just care and want to support a larger cause. You see, I think we've all gotten lazy with our thinking... like there are things we just cannot do. Like all the hard work, the courage, the heart it took to create where we are today, is just it. Like the world has arrived at where it will ever be, so now we just sit back and coast through. I don't believe that to be the case, even a little bit.
> 
> I often use an analogy to explain how ridiculous the hierarchy of our social economic status has become. I would argue, a doctor cannot perform is great gift to our society, without the great gifts provided by a show maker. The doctor MUST have shoes to do his job, he must. Maybe that doesn't resonate with everyone, NOW. When I was 24 years old, I was a program manager for the NASCAR program with the Army National Guard. That year, we sign our sponsorship package with Hendrick Motor Sports. During our initial visit to Hendricks facility in NC, we toured through the engine department, the (car) body department, etc. We were be led through the facility by our sponsor rep, whose position would be traditionally considered in the executive level in this industry. As she led us around, in her suit, she introduced us to every single person that built every piece of the race cars. Every single person, from the guy who made fenders to the engineer working to improve engine performance, every single person was respected and regarded equally. You see, they fundamentally understood, to build the best race care, you need the best at ever single position. They could have the highest paid engineers and execs, who created the fastest engines in the world... but engineers and engines do not win races, race cars win races... and race cars are built by a lot of people, each doing something they are extraordinary at doing, and they are extraordinary because they absolutely love what they do.


I wish you well, but you do recognize how this outlook traps some people? It feels good to say someday we will do this grand thing, and never do it. Today we don't know which things will be grand and what will end up unknown or rejected. 

People have hundreds of thousands of subscribers on YouTube. In with all the junk, some people are listing to a good education from YouTube, downloaded into an earpiece. Of course I'm not saying that is your thing, how would I know. And the people who try their first video are often lame, but they keep going. Just consider, that if you only want to start out doing the big grand thing, you might be all talk and excuses. If that works for you that's okay too.

But we are living in a wonderful time when anyone can try to make the world a better place, without much cash or other risks. You just have to be willing to start somewhere.
---------

Of course I don't know you and the resources or connections you might have. I just know anything where you put a piece of yourself out there, easier to keep it the big grand dream so you never have to deal with rejection. This is just something I've see more than a few times with talented people, of course that doesn't mean that's you.


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## Thalassa

Why is this in the debate section? It seems more like a personal discussion.


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## Old Intern

> _The Too Many Aptitudes Problem_
> _(Condensed from Danger: High Voltage)_
> 
> _Hank Pfeffer_
> _[Out of date contact information omitted.]_
> 
> 
> 
> _Talent is a force, not a tool. Talent is neither good nor bad. Being multi-talented is a very mixed blessing. For some people, it is a curse._
> 
> _Ability or performance is the result of complex interaction between various parts of the mind/body system. Some parts of ability are due to "nurture." The most important of these environmental factors is knowledge in one form or another. Nature is the basis of talent._
> 
> _We all know, understand, and operate on more levels than just the conscious. Talents or aptitudes are unlearned abilities--gut-level and non-conscious ways of operating. Some people call them knacks. Aptitudes have a major impact not just on performance, but on our individual and unique states of being. They are a big part of the reason "One man's meat is another man's poison."_
> 
> _Most people know far more than they realize about knacks and talents. People usually know if they are mechanical, have a sense of direction, pick up languages, enjoy puzzles or are good with their hands. Anyone who has managed or trained people has seen the clear impact of unlearned abilities. In any area, some folks take to it like ducks to water. Once trained, they stay ahead of the crowd. Others sweat to keep up, or fail miserably._
> 
> _Strong talents do not equal high performance. Having the right knacks or talents provides a head start and ongoing advantage. They are not very useful without knowledge and motivation. Aptitudes have to be trained in order to be used well. Peak performance occurs when one has the right combination of talents, knowledge, motivation, opportunity, courage, luck, tools and the X factors._
> 
> _About two dozen different and independent aptitudes are pretty well known, with another couple dozen possibles and probables (see attached list). These talents are simple things: types of memory, ways of processing information, levels of perception. They are building blocks for more complex ways of operating. They operate in a systemic way and are important factors in long-term performance and behavior._
> 
> _Everyone seems to have each aptitude to some degree--high, mid-range or low. These seem to be genetic in origin, though a case can be made for the influence of early childhood stimulation. It is a moot question for adults. By the time someone passes puberty, the aptitudes are roughly stable (when performance on aptitude tests is compared to others in the same age group)._
> 
> _Talents can be consciously directed into constructive channels. However, they seem to work at a pre-conscious level--the gut level. They are always operating--continuous forces that cannot be turned off. This is very important under stress, when people tend to forget their training and revert to gut-level functioning. People with the right aptitudes/talents/knacks for a task don't fatigue as quickly and are less or not at all stressed by it._
> 
> _Though most of the research has focused on their functional aspects, talents impact on people in ways both obvious and subtle. Aptitudes are not simply tools to be used at will. They are ongoing forces within the mind/body system. In a way, talents are vectors affecting behavior in predictable ways. You don't just do things with talent--it does things to you. Aptitudes--high and low--have an extremely strong psychological, social and even philosophical impact._
> 
> _Aptitudes have an important impact on motivation. It feels good to use a high aptitude, thus reinforcing operating that way. Feeling good about using yourself in a particular way is almost certainly related to the production of endorphins. Not only pain killers, endorphins are also known to be mood regulators. Several kinds of endorphins have been isolated. There are probably as many endorphin types as there are aptitudes._
> 
> _Some of the feelings associated with strong talents are negative. An unused aptitude is a source of frustration and restlessness. A talent is also a need. Ongoing in its functioning, an unused aptitude must either be stifled or ignored. It takes energy to stifle a part of yourself and to neutralize or ignore a natural and ongoing tendency. It also doesn't feel good. This takes its toll in the long run. Motivational energy seems to be finite--the extra effort needed to stifle a part of yourself is an important factor in burnout._
> 
> _Low aptitudes are also important. Almost anyone can learn to do a task or pass a class by rote, but if the gut level "knowing" is lacking, performance is inferior to those who have the knack (other factors being equal). Without that deep level of knowing or understanding, self-confidence is lower. If people don't have a gut-level feel for a situation, they are never really comfortable there. It is anxiety producing and energy draining to operate in low-talent areas. Without the inherent rewards associated with high aptitude, motivation is lower. It isn't impossible to get motivated--just harder._
> 
> _Low-aptitude people make more errors and achieve less in that area--or work a lot harder to achieve the same results. This can lead to burnout, accidents, and a high level of stress-related illness. It is possible to learn to be better at anything, whatever the level of aptitude. However, with the same effort, people with the right talents for that activity stay ahead--and enjoy what they're doing. For them, operating in a particular way is cost-effective on many levels._
> 
> _Most jobs and tasks are best performed by folks with certain high and low aptitude combinations (plus other things like training, of course). High aptitudes beyond job needs cause problems. The optimum combination for any given job or task resembles a recipe--a lot of some things, some of this, a bit of this, and none of that._
> 
> _Just one wrong high aptitude can make a job intolerable for a person--like onions in a chocolate cake. A person with a strong knack for working with others might hate solitary work and quit, but be tremendously productive and satisfied as part of a team. Whether a high or low aptitude is good or bad depends on the context. Anything can be an advantage or disadvantage depending on the situation. Talent is no exception._
> 
> _Most people have about four or five strong talents out of the roughly two dozen independent aptitudes known to exist. Most jobs require about four or five. As many as 10% of the population has double that number of aptitudes--and that is a problem for them and their employers. The Johnson O'Connor Research Foundation, the oldest aptitude-testing organization in the country, has statistical evidence that people with too many aptitudes (TMAs) are less likely to obtain advanced education and/or succeed in a career than those with an average number of talents._
> 
> _Being a TMA is a very mixed blessing. Strong talents are extremely powerful internal forces. One of the most important implications of my aptitude research is the strong possibility that emotional intensity is directly correlated with the intensity of a talent. Someone operating at a high-intensity level of talent (including reasoning) will also be operating at a high-intensity level of emotion. Every thought, memory or perception is directly connected to emotion--a wholistic phenomenon._
> 
> _It is quite possible that TMAs are continually operating in a hypersensitive manner. People hypersensitive to external and internal data in many forms and operating at a high emotional intensity level might very well become overstimulated. Ongoing overstimulation could explain the paralysis felt by some TMAs. They are so overwhelmed by perceptions, memories, thoughts and feelings that they can't commit themselves to anything. Many of them need a lot of time alone to regenerate. Yet, this same turbulence can also lead to great insight and creativity._
> 
> _The existence of a powerful force implies difficulty in learning to harness that force. Having a lot of strong talents is a bit like dealing with high voltage. You can do a lot of things with high voltage. However, it can also fry you. It takes a lot more knowledge and more safety precautions to work with high voltage rather than low. A lot of that voltage for TMAs is emotional. Few people know how to handle normal emotion, let alone powerful, ongoing emotion._
> 
> _Among the clearest psychological effects of having many talents are problems of focus. TMAs are drawn in many different and conflicting directions. It is like being an engineer, a lawyer, a cook, a teacher and a musician--all at once, with all of them demanding their share of time and energy. Self-structuring thus becomes a major problem for TMAs. Unable to use themselves well, they usually end up as employees--and resent it._
> 
> _TMAs often become job hoppers, instinctively trying to satisfy their diverse needs. Job hopping rarely leads to financial success. It also doesn't lead to the consistent building of knowledge, expertise and reputation that is necessary for significant success in any area._
> 
> _TMAs often don't fit in well with organizations or groups. They are rarely willing to give up their perceptual and decision-making independence for the sake of group membership. Basically, they are saying "I will join only on my own terms," which is unacceptable to most groups._
> 
> _Pecking orders exist in any human activity. TMAs often cause problems to the hierarchy. Most TMAs aren't really motivated (or all that impressed) by money or power. They feel that they are anyone's equal and want to be treated as such--a state of mind that is often seen as a direct challenge to authority and the authority structure._
> 
> _Hyper-critical and often irreverent, TMAs cannot act as if the boss were always right. They notice the Naked Emperor and comment, or expend a lot of energy stifling themselves. Consistently commenting on imperial nudity is seen by others--especially bosses--as aggressive._
> 
> _TMAs usually have high reasoning aptitudes. Folks like this don't like applying pat answers to routine problems--it doesn't use their reasoning ability. They need to work things out by themselves, need to solve real problems. This can be a strength or a weakness (ever wonder why some people won't read instructions?). At work they often feel they are operating in low gear and tend to gravitate to fringe or trouble areas. Without problems, TMAs will often find some or make some._
> 
> _TMAs are powerful people. They are competent in many ways. They tend to be either domineering or overwhelming in relationships with others--only strong people aren't threatened by them. TMAs often develop considerable informal power at work or in groups. At work a strong manager is thus likely to require more submission gestures from a TMA than from others. That invites covert (or overt) retaliation and TMAs often find themselves in conflict with authority._
> 
> _Rarely identifying with group norms, and sometimes challenging the basic assumptions of the group, TMAs are often resented and feared by peers and subordinates as much as by authority figures. Clearly perceived by others as powerful, they are also seen as dangerous and unpredictable and therefore untrustworthy._
> 
> _Thus, TMAs often don't receive the rewards and protection offered by the group. They recognize this. Their alienation leads directly to the idea that "The system and the rules don't work for me, so I've got to do something else." This can mean crime or creativity, or both. It also seems to mean internal conflict, self-esteem problems and confusion._
> 
> _These problems are usually not apparent at first glance. At any given time the TMA appears to be functioning very well. Often, the TMA will be brilliant in many aspects of work and life. It is only over time that the pattern of difficulties begins to emerge. It often leads to destructive self-criticism or self-hatred--TMAs seem to have a rather high suicide rate._
> 
> _The worst-off TMAs seem to be the ones who try to be normal. This includes using normal definitions of success. TMAs often find it personally destructive to try to fit into normal molds. They aren't normal. Not better, not worse. Different, and with different needs._
> 
> _TMA is not something that can be ignored or cured. It is something that has to be worked with. For most multi-talented people, it is likely to cause problems at one stage of life or another. Many TMAs never learn to use themselves well. Usually their worst problems are associated with lack of financial or professional success. Though there are no easy answers, there are better or worse ways to work with TMA._
> 
> _Not all TMAs are unsuccessful. TMAs seem to function best at frontiers--intellectual, social or physical. These are the places where learning and doing are the same thing. They can operate well at interfaces between different parts of society--liaison and translation. They often do well as troubleshooters, innovators or problem solvers, in research or investigation, and in product or method development. They also seem to do quite well in situations like the Alamo, fighting long odds and staving off the inevitable._
> 
> _TMAs are most likely to be happiest with work that provides a lot of variety, challenge and opportunity for use of diverse talents--usually multi-disciplinary areas. Even then, many TMAs feel that they are underachieving, that they could do great things. And they are usually right. The only thing that can motivate the TMA to focus enough for really high achievement is a value judgment._
> 
> _TMAs are usually hypercritical, a side effect of high reasoning aptitudes. They notice flaws and loopholes, errors and inconsistencies. They notice that 90% of almost anything is bullshit. They are usually good arguers and can tear just about anything to shreds--including themselves._
> 
> _TMAs will sometimes set goals, prove to themselves that these goals are worthless, and then repeat the entire cycle. Each decision can be challenged, each goal can be laughed at--and thus nothing is worth doing. This destroys personal motivation and energy._
> 
> _Money, power and self-aggrandizement don't really motivate TMAs. Only finding something worth doing--by their own high standards--can motivate TMAs to focus enough for sustained very high achievement. Then and only then can the powerful forces of the diverse aptitudes be channeled._
> 
> _TMA is a broader category than high IQ. Most members of high-IQ groups will be TMAs, but there is a bias in favor of people with high Near Point Visual Efficiency, which makes them more likely to be prolific readers, have more formal education and do better on computerized tests. Many TMAs don't walk the intellectual path. Mensa claims to be the top 2%. I think there are a lot more TMAs than that._
> 
> _List of Apparently Independent and Unlearned Aptitudes_
> 
> _A. Category: Reasoning/Processing_
> 
> _1. Systems reasoning: an information organizing aptitude that takes data and puts it into a system, or takes data and organizes it into a system. Often the basis of an interest in history. Analyzing things. Useful for programmers, editors, process planners._
> 
> _2. Flash reasoning: condition of (mostly) accurately jumping to conclusions, quickly seeing discrepancies and errors, with a need to be critical and answer questions. Natural debaters, they take strong partisan positions. Therapists, troubleshooters, detectives, lawyers._
> 
> _3. Cause/effect reasoning: seeing extended parallel cause and effect sequences. This awareness of the long term makes it easier to conceptualize and achieve long-term goals in diverse areas._
> 
> _4. Numerical reasoning: a feel for the patterns and rhythms in numbers. Arithmetical type activities._
> 
> _5. Logical reasoning: naturally processing data in the form of syllogisms. Programmers, logicians._
> 
> _B. Category: States of Being_
> 
> _1. Mechanical/spatial: an aptitude for things and 3D space. Mostly found together, the mechanical and spatial can exist separately. Engineers, air traffic controllers, doctors, truckers._
> 
> _2. Semantic equivalence: aptitude/need for group functioning, including people politics and the ability to identify with others, read vibes well. High: sales, management. Low: useful for specialists, artists and independent decision makers._
> 
> _3. Idea production: rate at which ideas are produced (independent of idea quality). High: communicators of various types. Low: useful in high concentration areas like accounting, surgery._
> 
> _4. Sensory discrimination: making fine sensory discriminations. Winemakers, coffee buyers, decorators._
> 
> _C. Category: Memory/Perceptual Sensitivity_
> 
> _1. Observation: aptitude for looking at things, recognizing and remembering them._
> 
> _2. Number (visual): remembering, noticing numbers._
> 
> _3. Design: sensitivity to and memory for designs._
> 
> _4. Word (visual): memory for and sensitivity to written words._
> 
> _5. Color: memory for and sensitivity to color._
> 
> _6. Tone: memory for and sensitivity to tones._
> 
> _7. Rhythm: memory for and sensitivity to rhythm and timing._
> 
> _8. Number (audible): memory and sensitivity to spoken numbers._
> 
> _9. Word (audible): memory and sensitivity to spoken words._
> 
> _D. Miscellaneous_
> 
> _1. Near Point Visual Efficiency: close-in visual scanning as in paperwork, CRT screens._
> 
> _2. Finger dexterity: good hands._
> 
> _3. Small tool dexterity: tweezers, eyebrow pencils._
> 
> _Possible aptitudes:_
> 
> _Hands-on task-organizing ability, spatial orientation, sensory threshold/overload point, body memory, common sense, green thumb, competitiveness, auditory identi/fication, day/night alertness, intuition, synesthesia, healing, affinity for animals, seeing auras._


copied from post from *ScientiaOmnisEst * link originaly *drmiller100*

Debate away . . . . . I will back out now, let others have input.:wink:


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## Roady82

Old Intern said:


> I wish you well, but you do recognize how this outlook traps some people? It feels good to say someday we will do this grand thing, and never do it. Today we don't know which things will be grand and what will end up unknown or rejected.
> 
> People have hundreds of thousands of subscribers on YouTube. In with all the junk, some people are listing to a good education from YouTube, downloaded into an earpiece. Of course I'm not saying that is your thing, how would I know. And the people who try their first video are often lame, but they keep going. Just consider, that if you only want to start out doing the big grand thing, you might be all talk and excuses. If that works for you that's okay too.
> 
> But we are living in a wonderful time when anyone can try to make the world a better place, without much cash or other risks. You just have to be willing to start somewhere.
> ---------
> 
> Of course I don't know you and the resources or connections you might have. I just know anything where you put a piece of yourself out there, easier to keep it the big grand dream so you never have to deal with rejection. This is just something I've see more than a few times with talented people, of course that doesn't mean that's you.


I didn't mean to hurt your feelings by saying your thinking was small. I would just add though, that perhaps that belittle attitude is the very problem to which we're referring. Say I was completely full of shit, let's say that what I'm saying make no sense at all, and I'll never crawl out of my basement long enough to mow the lawn. If someone was trying to make the world a better place... why would you attempt to belittle or demean, something good natured even if it is just a dream?

I hope I didn't take your tone the wrong way, I'm no expert in MBTi or cognitive fuctions... but your message had somewhat of a negative tone.


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## Roady82

Thalassa said:


> Why is this in the debate section? It seems more like a personal discussion.


I'm not sure the protocol here... are you the forum police? Do you have something to add? Is the data size of whatever this thread "is" taking up room too on a server somewhere? Does it seem like a personal discussion because of the number of people active in the discussion?

Be clear with you message.


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## Roady82

drmiller100 said:


> well, of course.
> 
> And i said I'd help you.
> 
> What is it we're doing?
> 
> Smiles...................


Apparently not debating about TMA. I am NOT an expert in personalities and behaviors and cognitive function... but you guys are very knowledgable... so I'm learning. What I have learned from you all, is TMA is definitely possible. Period. No one is giving or asking for or has the capacity to determine whether or not someone else has TMA. I'm new to forums but I'm sure the Café Legend is not. Maybe I have the wrong idea of what I'm supposed to be doing here.


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## drmiller100

Thalassa said:


> Why is this in the debate section? It seems more like a personal discussion.


Because I wanted it here to provide an example of how adults debate.

We politely examine differing opinions with respect and courtesy. Adult stuff.


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## drmiller100

Roady82 said:


> Apparently not debating about TMA. I am NOT an expert in personalities and behaviors and cognitive function... but you guys are very knowledgable... so I'm learning. What I have learned from you all, is TMA is definitely possible. Period. No one is giving or asking for or has the capacity to determine whether or not someone else has TMA. I'm new to forums but I'm sure the Café Legend is not. Maybe I have the wrong idea of what I'm supposed to be doing here.


Smiles. 

You have the right idea. TMA is for sure real. And I am pointing out you are not alone, but there are not many of us.

the LEVEL of this discussion is a very rare one. And that is cool. And this debate is allowing us to learn from each other, and solidify ideas, and open doors. 

This site certainly includes these activities.


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## Old Intern

@Roady82 I don't know what size or type of project is right for you. I was speaking more to a common pitfall, Ne problem or human problem. Resisting something within reach and using maybe someday, or the huge thing, as an excuse not to do anything. I may be preaching to myself a little because I see many things evolve and people have guts to just put it out there and get started.



You may have the need for and benefit from - what this author called the big harry audacious goal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Hairy_Audacious_Goal -you might find a condensed or video or audio version somewhere too.

Notice this was written in the 90's, not saying it doesn't still work. Just sayin... starting small with a few test pilots or commitment to a blog doesn't cheapen the quality of what can happen or how something can grow. It's what's being done today. Short life span of projects might be a way of life today - or just a different tactic. I believe the crap will fade away and whatever makes a difference will stick around - mostly.


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## Old Intern

So I just read roadies new blog post. Was that an experiment? You might make money with that approach. I think (though I don't know) that it would be a lie to think that is helping anyone (but it might sell). White trash or whatever color or economic group . . . . . . there are twelve year olds getting rich on YouTube - maybe they don't know about these labels you seem all bent about. At thirty three you can't honestly believe cell phones are the boogie man do you? It's not TMA to become an SJW, but it could be smart I guess.

Fi does get to me when I see it but maybe i'm just jealous I can't pull it off.

About public schools, when I was a kid there were only two social classifications to fall into or be invisible. You were either athletic or a pot head. Today so many categories and arenas of identity and expression. It just makes no sense to condemn the internet for opening a whole new world, and yet say what we need is more creativity and individuality - you contradict yourself. 

Yes we are all in a global adjustment shift, so buck up and deal with it? Or one could capitalize on pain and wallowing. The SJW bandwagon is still rolling, might be some time left to cash in. Or one could find one of those disadvantaged but smart kids and employ them to help you tell an uplifting hopeful story. You could use a go-fund-me account to raise money to buy computers for a local library or build a community center.

-------

On a more serious note we do have a crisis on the news right now I guess, I don't claim to have answers for that - it's complicated, but sad.


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## drmiller100

Old Intern said:


> So I just read roadies new blog post.
> 
> 
> On a more serious note we do have a crisis on the news right now I guess, I don't claim to have answers for that - it's complicated, but sad.


where is the blog post?

we need more gun free zones.


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## Old Intern

Anyone on PerC can have a blog here. You go to the persons profile page and see if they have any blogs - left column under other info near friends icons (above or below). I figured I'd comment here so he can collect data more from his target on his own page.

I was very impressed with other entries and the authority and personality that came thru on the others before this last entry.
I went back to read more, this last one.


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## drmiller100

@varuna welcome to the latest thread!


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## varuna

*unity ??*

thanks for the invitation _@drmiller _. 
I dont have so many aptitudes ( and i am not sure of the meaning of it ) . 
University is a boring place, except withe some very good teachers ( 4 maximum in 15 years) . I studied mostly math, philosophy and partly english and other gigs. 
focus : epistemology 
I had only one *rea*l job ; teacher for me it is more a function . In all societies there are maybe 5 or 6 functions . Recently I tried to move to another one. Not sure yet . 
and one way in life : martial arts, centering and breathing . 
I came to Jung through a therapy and a very strong appeal for all mythologies since my 8's. . Still going on now . 
the guy i can as a model Leonard de V . 
ah , yes , i used a lot of computer science stuff , for the job and for the theorical problems ( NP, Turing machine , etc ° 
And no, never been a nerd


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## Roady82

Debate


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## Roady82

Thalassa said:


> Roady82 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure the protocol here... are you the forum police? Do you have something to add? Is the data size of whatever this thread "is" taking up room too on a server somewhere? Does it seem like a personal discussion because of the number of people active in the discussion?
> 
> Be clear with you message.
> 
> 
> 
> It seems like a thread about Dr. Miller's life or about people who don't have focused depth but breadth, and it's not really a debate. It's a simple enough question, I think your response was a lot more unnecessary than mine.
Click to expand...

DrMiller is the originator for this thread, so I'll defer to him.

But! I want the intent of my initial response to be clear. I truly don't know the protocol here... I'm seriously asking, for informational purposes only. Are you an authority of any kind? The reason I ask is because of how you interrupted the thread... If you did so in an official capacity with this site, you did so unprofessionally and with no tact. If you did so because of your status or ranking on this site, then you were just being a douce bag.

I told you to be clear with your intent, so I could file you under your appropriate credibility.

So for my personal knowledge, do you have an official capacity on this site? Was your point that we should move our thread to another category? Is it even possible to move a thread to a different category?

And perhaps more importantly, why do you give a fuck what we're talking about and how we going about doing it? Are we obligated to explain our means of debating a topic to you? Are you so needy and self-important that basic customs and courtseys don't apply to you anymore?

Either state your position within an official capacity, and be sure to reference what your siting from policy, or please add some substance. Surely you have an opinion on TMA... and if you don't have an opinion currently, read the attached article, then think of an opinion.

Why am I having to explain this simple shit to a Cafe Legend? I feel safe in assuming that means you should know how this works!

But again, I defer you to DrMiller as the responsible person for this thread... I'm just a lonely observer voicing my opinion as I see it.

Hint: In the future, why don't you just send the originator of a post a private message, voicing any concerns about that thread in a professional and tactful manner? That way you won't seem like an incompetent dick.


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## Old Intern

Thalassa said:


> It seems like a thread about Dr. Miller's life or about people who don't have focused depth but breadth, and it's not really a debate. It's a simple enough question, I think your response was a lot more unnecessary than mine.


We may not have addressed what drmiller fully intended yet, but roady's discussion seems quite relevant and value adding, in my opinion. If you don't see the debate aspect to it - no harm done. ENTP's feel the gap between what is possible and what gets done. So the debate is what to do (or not) about this gap; how much is our own internal problem, how much is that we DO see more and differently than others, etc.


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## Roady82

Old Intern said:


> Thalassa said:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems like a thread about Dr. Miller's life or about people who don't have focused depth but breadth, and it's not really a debate. It's a simple enough question, I think your response was a lot more unnecessary than mine.
> 
> 
> 
> We may not have addressed what drmiller fully intended yet, but roady's discussion seems quite relevant and value adding, in my opinion. If you don't see the debate aspect to it - no harm done. ENTP's feel the gap between what is possible and what gets done. So the debate is what to do (or not) about this gap; how much is our own internal problem, how much is that we DO see more and differently than others, etc.
Click to expand...

Thank you Old Intern for having the patience that I clearly didn't posses when I responded. However, based on what I have learned in this thread about us compared to others, is the others inability to see that gap. I don't want to replace my relentless efforts to explain to the seemingly unexplainable with impatience and intolerance.

But I also believe that people cannot be held responsible for their deficiencies if they are not first held accountable.

If that person has an official capacity, they did a shitty job. If they don't, why are we wasting our time?


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## drmiller100

Thalassa said:


> It seems like a thread about Dr. Miller's life or about people who don't have focused depth but breadth, and it's not really a debate. It's a simple enough question, I think your response was a lot more unnecessary than mine.


Quit trolling and derailing my thread. 

Roady is new. Varuna is new. Intern is relatively new. You are making them uncomfortable and discouraging them.


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## Old Intern

So @drmiller100 do you think some of your thread motivation is concern that academia has offered you a good situation, but now you have to find some other way to use your 8 nature, or else you will be too restless to do the best you can do at teaching? Afraid it requires that proverbial tortoise approach Ne finds painful to maintain?

Did you notice - Key words at the bottom- INFP thread also about TMA - it is an Ne thing. Others can have multiple aptitudes but not expansive thinking or multiple interests as much.


----------



## drmiller100

Roady82 said:


> So yes, I believe there is probably a better way to live our lives than that of the culture in 1990. We know more now, why not apply some of it? In fact, why wouldn't we apply as much as we could to making things better? .


smiles.... system.

Let's imagine we have 100 school kids, and we want to keep them busy. We provide food so no one is overly hungry. Hungry people cause problems. We give the rambunctious ones drugs to take the edge off. we teach classes, standardized flaming hoops for everyone to jump through. We put a little bit of extra flaming rewards for those who start to see the wizard pulling the strings.....

99 percent of the kids will be just fine. They will be happy, fed, lazy, and jump in unison.

Let's imagine we have 300 MILLION people. And we wo ant to keep them busy doing things. Busy things. same system.

You were in the military. What do REALLY NEED? Maslow described it. Food, shelter, family, some attachment to something bigger than them. booze and antidrepressants for when you start thinking.
TV to numb you day to day.

People don't WANT to be woken up. They don't WANT a better life. People can have any kind of life tehy want, and they choose what they do.

If is up to YOU to decide what kind of life YOU want. 

I fill my life with sex and lust and fucking around teaching and raising kids. Now I'm going ot go back to inventing. 

I do get lonely. I do like talking with people like you and intern and varuna. There are others I have run into. 

Simple. 
I have some quotes I love. One is in sig here at the moment for optimism. 

I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.

There are some more apt quotes at this site.

Ayn Rand Quotes - BrainyQuote


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## Old Intern

*@*drmiller100 did you read _The Fountainhead_? I liked that one as least as much as Atlas Shrugged. 

But in _The Fountainhead _i'd like to do a modern day re-write where the tabloid publisher character reinvents himself in a big way before the end.

I may have jumped into thinking @Roady82 was becoming Toohey (Fountainhead Character). Some of my assumptions may be carried over from other threads - people younger than any of us. But i also thought about your comment roady, about a generation gap. It occurred to me, all the teen/young adult TV viewing I did was so innocent or optimistic? You all may have seen the re-runs but collectively it was a different attitude than today? (The Jeffersons, Charlies Angels, Bill Cosby, Three is Company, The Partridge family, Heart to Heart) For the times, these people were are all going against stereotypes. As a Kid I remember a popular saying "Do Your Own Thing". This stuff seems silly now that I watch crime dramas or multi-layered symbolism, cereals. But there was the assumption that anybody can do anything.


----------



## Roady82

drmiller100 said:


> People don't WANT to be woken up. They don't WANT a better life. People can have any kind of life tehy want, and they choose what they do.
> 
> If is up to YOU to decide what kind of life YOU want.
> 
> I fill my life with sex and lust and fucking around teaching and raising kids. Now I'm going ot go back to inventing.
> 
> I do get lonely. I do like talking with people like you and intern and varuna. There are others I have run into.
> 
> Simple.
> I have some quotes I love. One is in sig here at the moment for optimism.
> 
> I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
> 
> There are some more apt quotes at this site.
> 
> Ayn Rand Quotes - BrainyQuote


I know exactly what you're saying... but I'm not ready to throw it in yet... though, not out of stubborn blindness... I believe what you say so my direction has two parts:

Adults: The good thing about the conditioning of our culture is how well it develops followers... people who will blindly do what they're told. The adults shouldn't be the variable that stops progress... even if thy need to be bred out... the good for the whole is worth the sacrifice of a few.

Children: The only logical solution, considering all factors, is to change our culture through education. Education is influenced through policy and inevitably through money. People support things that trend, that sound sexy and good natured... just so long as they don't have to actually do anything.

I have four children that I will not allow these deficiencies to be instilled. I'm very aware that you a brink over the head approach will most likely never work... Fortunately, there has been some work done in this direction already... and thankfully it was by someone with some letters behind their name... you know... for credibility sake.

I'll be running with this, I'm going to try a few different things. It's hard to say my exact approach out loud, people with no imagination or a predisposition to rejecting things they've fail at themselves can be an annoying distraction.


----------



## Roady82

Old Intern said:


> *@*drmiller100 did you read _The Fountainhead_? I liked that one as least as much as Atlas Shrugged.
> 
> But in _The Fountainhead _i'd like to do a modern day re-write where the tabloid publisher character reinvents himself in a big way before the end.
> 
> I may have jumped into thinking @Roady82 was becoming Toohey (Fountainhead Character). Some of my assumptions may be carried over from other threads - people younger than any of us. But i also thought about your comment roady, about a generation gap. It occurred to me, all the teen/young adult TV viewing I did was so innocent or optimistic? You all may have seen the re-runs but collectively it was a different attitude than today? (The Jeffersons, Charlies Angels, Bill Cosby, Three is Company, The Partridge family, Heart to Heart) For the times, these people were are all going against stereotypes. As a Kid I remember a popular saying "Do Your Own Thing". This stuff seems silly now that I watch crime dramas or multi-layered symbolism, cereals. But there was the assumption that anybody can do anything.


Yes! That's all I was saying. But do you see how the cultural position at the time of youth can profoundly effect your idea of the world? How the common beliefs and behaviors of what's accepted or not can create a foundation of perception? If are perceptions are built from our collective experiences... a different time period even within the same society or culture can have a seriously profound effect on how we see the world... and it's possibilities.

Case in point, my two youngest boys are both under 4 years old. They honestly think WIFI is an element emitted out of the earth. They don't even conceive a time or reality without wifi or tablets.


----------



## series0

SilverFalcon said:


> I wished people would let others to go where they themselves know they must.
> 
> As for "we" "know" "they" "must" - don't make me laugh. You should have eyes to eyes with Socrates.


I do. Socrates is by brother from another mother, no doubt. I wish to meet him more than any other single person, ...

But, no, people are not sufficient unto their own direction(s). Within reason, within wisdom, sure. We do not allow anarchy. Despite its allure we are wise enough to know that it eventually sucks for everyone. The only way anarchy works is if everyone is truly wise. So the question becomes, what are the roadblocks to universal wisdom and how can we remove them systematically. Thrusting anarchy on everyone before they are ready is a fool's pursuit. 

However, if your 'let others go' thing includes meeting all of everyone's needs amid this pursuit, and not letting 'those that are good at stealing or controlling' take more than their fair share, then I agree. That is my definition of 'let'. To hold each person accountable to the work ethic of psychologically unsound workaholics as well as the scrutiny and accountability of the pathologically OCD, is insane. That is the current situation.


----------



## Old Intern

Roady82 said:


> Yes! That's all I was saying. But do you see how the cultural position at the time of youth can profoundly effect your idea of the world? How the common beliefs and behaviors of what's accepted or not can create a foundation of perception? If are perceptions are built from our collective experiences... a different time period even within the same society or culture can have a seriously profound effect on how we see the world... and it's possibilities.
> 
> Case in point, my two youngest boys are both under 4 years old. They honestly think WIFI is an element emitted out of the earth. They don't even conceive a time or reality without wifi or tablets.


Sure, but we don't have a common culture anymore in the sense of public TV and radio stations (spotify and pod casts, and hulu or netflix now). 

I've had recent discussions on PerC and real life about socialism and how nobody wants pure socialism if they know what it means, and nobody does or wants pure capitalism anymore either, so these discussion might have influenced my interpretation of your writing.

When you talk more in specifics, I think you writing and story is compelling. I get frustrated when I think people are grasping for a panacea. I read your Nascar story and I thought, yes this is not a new thought, it works, but it is not for everybody or every business model. I hear people from left and right hate _common core_ and some from left and some from right think it's great. I definitely see why, as a parent you would be concerned about the world your kids are growing up in.


----------



## SilverFalcon

series0 said:


> But, no, people are not sufficient unto their own direction(s). Within reason, within wisdom, sure. We do not allow anarchy. Despite its allure we are wise enough to know that it eventually sucks for everyone. The only way anarchy works is if everyone is truly wise. So the question becomes, what are the roadblocks to universal wisdom and how can we remove them systematically. Thrusting anarchy on everyone before they are ready is a fool's pursuit.


There will never be a situation where everyone is ready for such and such system. Thrusting anarchy is indeed nonsense, anarchy must come bottom-up if it becomes possible (exogenous forces).

The thing is we only need the majority to have understanding of anarchy. If people believe its just chaos, it would be chaos until order is formed and that order may not be anarchy. But if majority understands, even anarchists can maintain order. Initiation of trespass can be stopped or retaliated by force.

Here is nice essay about what is anarchy: 


Simple libery said:


> Anarchy does not mean without rules, but is a philosophy and social system without rulers.[3] Some people incorrectly define anarchy as no rules or boundaries, but that most certainly would be a world of chaos and confusion. The distinction between rules and rulers is important. Likewise, anarchy does not mean a social system without leaders. In any group of people certain individuals will exhibit or demonstrate special or unique skills and abilities to lead others and to coordinate individual actions. Thus, anarchy is not barbarism. Anarchy is not Utopian or idealistic but a realistic logical conclusion to the principles of self and trespass.
> 
> Trespass is any violation of an individual’s body or resources. By definition, trespass includes the threat of violation. Anarchy does not necessarily prohibit self-defense, but prohibits initiating trespass. Many philosophical anarchists believe that any self-defense must be proportional to stopping the trespass.
> 
> Anarchy as a social system contains a presumption of self-government. Anarchy depends upon the concepts of reciprocity, mutual benefit, free association, and voluntary exchange. Philosophical anarchists are not against law and order, but against the fiat legislation and rule of a privileged or self-appointed few.[4] All philosophical anarchists oppose coerced, fiat, dictatorial law and social systems.


Here is the full essay which I recommend: Simple Liberty - What is Liberty?


----------



## Roady82

Old Intern said:


> Roady82 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes! That's all I was saying. But do you see how the cultural position at the time of youth can profoundly effect your idea of the world? How the common beliefs and behaviors of what's accepted or not can create a foundation of perception? If are perceptions are built from our collective experiences... a different time period even within the same society or culture can have a seriously profound effect on how we see the world... and it's possibilities.
> 
> Case in point, my two youngest boys are both under 4 years old. They honestly think WIFI is an element emitted out of the earth. They don't even conceive a time or reality without wifi or tablets.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, but we don't have a common culture anymore in the sense of public TV and radio stations (spotify and pod casts, and hulu or netflix now).
> 
> I've had recent discussions on PerC and real life about socialism and how nobody wants pure socialism if they know what it means, and nobody does or wants pure capitalism anymore either, so these discussion might have influenced my interpretation of your writing.
> 
> When you talk more in specifics, I think you writing and story is compelling. I get frustrated when I think people are grasping for a panacea. I read your Nascar story and I thought, yes this is not a new thought, it works, but it is not for everybody or every business model. I hear people from left and right hate _common core_ and some from left and some from right think it's great. I definitely see why, as a parent you would be concerned about the world your kids are growing up in.
Click to expand...

No, we don't have a common culture anymore... This to me is why we are all floating around... Looking for somewhere to grasp. For some, stay confortable and close to what's safe... do what everyone else is doing. For others, start looking forward, evolve in response to the change, resist reacting and falling short of an appropriate solution purely for the sake of ending the uncertainty.

To be honest, I really don't know what socialism truly is, I do know that people have chosen socialism to feel strongly about, so I don't even bother... that just opens up another hurdle to navigate.

My solution is perhaps more simple that I make it seem. I think we need to allow the organic nature of being human to develop interests, passions, and abilities naturally. Supporting and guiding the process. Definitely not planning, standardizing and creating a lasting perception that everyone must do the same and be the same or else!

Fuck the left and right, they are all influenced by money... I have nothing else to say about that. BUT, teaching a child to read and write, some light history both world and to create cultural identity does not take 13 years... Not does it HAVE to be DONE at a specific age. The entire environment would create secure, fulfilled individuals who feel they life has purpose through what they do, as opposed to being identified by a job. As a parent, the idea excites me... no need for comparing, if truly appreciating our organic differences becomes the norm.


----------



## Old Intern

series0 said:


> I do. Socrates is by brother from another mother, no doubt. I wish to meet him more than any other single person, ...
> 
> But, no, people are not sufficient unto their own direction(s). Within reason, within wisdom, sure. We do not allow anarchy. Despite its allure we are wise enough to know that it eventually sucks for everyone. The only way anarchy works is if everyone is truly wise. So the question becomes, what are the roadblocks to universal wisdom and how can we remove them systematically. Thrusting anarchy on everyone before they are ready is a fool's pursuit.
> 
> However, if your 'let others go' thing includes meeting all of everyone's needs amid this pursuit, and not letting 'those that are good at stealing or controlling' take more than their fair share, then I agree. That is my definition of 'let'.* To hold each person accountable to the work ethic of psychologically unsound workaholics as well as the scrutiny and accountability of the pathologically OCD, is insane. That is the current situation.*


Bold part is not exactly true. We may have a problem where financial market services and the top one percent make or keep more money than what is productive to continue with as a society. Business owners discuss with each other the benefits about business paperwork and what can be deducted and how this works in favor of owning a business. I know first hand how this creates jobs at the beginning and intermediate level.

What is sounds like you assume where I bolded your quote, is that the bold characterizes anyone who is profitable, or at least that top one percent - not true.

Quite a few books have been written about the difference between self employment and business ownership. And Iv'e seen some of this in my own life, would like to see more. When you build a system and the system makes money for you; you have created value, jobs, and freedom (freedom from OCD and other unhealthy behavior) because you delegate and automate, and produce something other people want or need enough to vote for it with their own hard earned money!

The last thing we want is to throw this away! You will never have universal wisdom, different people are wise in one way and not in another. Some of this is chosen. The person who puts order to these differences, like an orchestration, they deserve reward - more than the person who just shows up and likes to bitch about whoever is in charge!


----------



## Old Intern

Roady82 said:


> No, we don't have a common culture anymore... This to me is why we are all floating around... Looking for somewhere to grasp. For some, stay confortable and close to what's safe... do what everyone else is doing. For others, start looking forward, evolve in response to the change, resist reacting and falling short of an appropriate solution purely for the sake of ending the uncertainty.
> 
> To be honest, I really don't know what socialism truly is, I do know that people have chosen socialism to feel strongly about, so I don't even bother... that just opens up another hurdle to navigate.
> 
> My solution is perhaps more simple that I make it seem. I think we need to allow the organic nature of being human to develop interests, passions, and abilities naturally. Supporting and guiding the process. Definitely not planning, standardizing and creating a lasting perception that everyone must do the same and be the same or else!
> 
> Fuck the left and right, they are all influenced by money... I have nothing else to say about that. BUT, teaching a child to read and write, some light history both world and to create cultural identity does not take 13 years... Not does it HAVE to be DONE at a specific age. The entire environment would create secure, fulfilled individuals who feel they life has purpose through what they do, as opposed to being identified by a job. As a parent, the idea excites me... no need for comparing, if truly appreciating our organic differences becomes the norm.


Maybe you need to change your environment somehow, if you only see followers? So many frontiers are exploding. #3D printing, cloud computing, free downloads and open source software! If you can dream it you can do it was never truer than now.

I can see how facebook taken to extreme might encourage mindlessness, but like everything a tool is just a tool. The character of people behind the tools is the responsibility of the individual (or parent). We do need to guard our minds, what we focus on and what we accept without question but these are personal choices, and we have millions of choices now.

I agree with you that structure of education can be dramatically changed, we see some of that happening already. Online education, Adult schedule compatibility in higher education, testing out of classes and getting credit for what you know, home schooling for primary and secondary education, public education in some countries extending past secondary. There has also been talk about a need to train people with what we used to call "skill center" and the need to bring status back to jobs like being an electrician - you can't fix those concerns from a call center on another continent.


----------



## Roady82

SilverFalcon said:


> series0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> But, no, people are not sufficient unto their own direction(s). Within reason, within wisdom, sure. We do not allow anarchy. Despite its allure we are wise enough to know that it eventually sucks for everyone. The only way anarchy works is if everyone is truly wise. So the question becomes, what are the roadblocks to universal wisdom and how can we remove them systematically. Thrusting anarchy on everyone before they are ready is a fool's pursuit.
> 
> 
> 
> There will never be a situation where everyone is ready for such and such system. Thrusting anarchy is indeed nonsense, anarchy must come bottom-up if it becomes possible (exogenous forces).
> 
> The thing is we only need the majority to have understanding of anarchy. If people believe its just chaos, it would be chaos until order is formed and that order may not be anarchy. But if majority understands, even anarchists can maintain order. Initiation of trespass can be stopped or retaliated by force.
> 
> Here is nice essay about what is anarchy:
> 
> 
> Simple libery said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anarchy does not mean without rules, but is a philosophy and social system without rulers.[3] Some people incorrectly define anarchy as no rules or boundaries, but that most certainly would be a world of chaos and confusion. The distinction between rules and rulers is important. Likewise, anarchy does not mean a social system without leaders. In any group of people certain individuals will exhibit or demonstrate special or unique skills and abilities to lead others and to coordinate individual actions. Thus, anarchy is not barbarism. Anarchy is not Utopian or idealistic but a realistic logical conclusion to the principles of self and trespass.
> 
> Trespass is any violation of an individual’s body or resources. By definition, trespass includes the threat of violation. Anarchy does not necessarily prohibit self-defense, but prohibits initiating trespass. Many philosophical anarchists believe that any self-defense must be proportional to stopping the trespass.
> 
> Anarchy as a social system contains a presumption of self-government. Anarchy depends upon the concepts of reciprocity, mutual benefit, free association, and voluntary exchange. Philosophical anarchists are not against law and order, but against the fiat legislation and rule of a privileged or self-appointed few.[4] All philosophical anarchists oppose coerced, fiat, dictatorial law and social systems.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Here is the full essay which I recommend: Simple Liberty - What is Liberty?
Click to expand...

Thank you for providing this definition of anarchy as a social system. This is what I try to explain as the byproduct of a philosophy of allowing humans to develop organically.


----------



## Roady82

> Maybe you need to change your environment somehow, if you only see followers? So many frontiers are exploding. #3D printing, cloud computing, free downloads and open source software! If you can dream it you can do it was never truer than now.


I've moved eight times in 10 years over 4 country's. What I meant by "followers" is in some ways the sum of our social debate, the product of our education system as it is today and has been, are in essence "followers", by my definition. The system was designed to produce identical, interchangeable, tested against each other, walk in rows, answer in unison... followers.

Yes, technology evolves but consider that owning a smart phone does not inherently make you a smart person. It's funny you point this out though, I feel like I'm constantly pointing out that most of use identify and take credit for a very few people's good ideas. We can all use the technology designed for us... that's no feat for the collective.



> I can see how facebook taken to extreme might encourage mindlessness, but like everything a tool is just a tool. The character of people behind the tools is the responsibility of the individual (or parent). We do need to guard our minds, what we focus on and what we accept without question but these are personal choices, and we have millions of choices now.


Old Intern, do you really believe that people are free to make ANY choices they wish, free from influence for social, family, and cultural acceptance? Come on, we're not really all the way back at that? Sure, as a boomer, you were not able to be openly gay, accept interracial relationships, etc. Do you really think we've just arrived at the corner of social maturity and acceptance? Surely, you can see how environment variables of today still greatly influence choices, regardless of the list of options. Part of our education is to do what everyone else is doing, in fact, we "standardized testing" just to sooth any confusion.



> I agree with you that structure of education can be dramatically changed, we see some of that happening already. Online education, Adult schedule compatibility in higher education, testing out of classes and getting credit for what you know, home schooling for primary and secondary education, public education in some countries extending past secondary. There has also been talk about a need to train people with what we used to call "skill center" and the need to bring status back to jobs like being an electrician - you can't fix those concerns from a call center on another continent.


I'm so confused as to how we seem to move backwards in our conversation. Yes, there are more options to "achieve an education". That seems to have it's own reasons to be a massive waist of time. But businesses finding new ways to make money on the same bad idea is not advancement. The lesson we actually learn, are much different than the lesson being taught. The unconscious lessons we learn through repetition is the issue.

I don't mean to get frustrated with you specifically, but, we've become a society that rejects an entire concept if we're not able to grasp it. My concepts or patterns or process to how I get where I get, may not make sense to you... it doesn't make sense to a lot of people, if it did... it probably wouldn't be an issue.

Throughout history, change has been made by few but the credit seems to be shared by all. It becomes, "the way it is". Same thing applies here, change is coming... because it must. Just look at it as typical maintenance, it will probably not begin to actually make sense for a generation or two down the road. Like we've pointed out, people don't want to change, so we won't change them, we will change the environment, so people can feel good about having the "freedom" to adapt on their own.


----------



## Old Intern

@Roady82 Your life choices partly required you to learn how to fall in line, doesn't mean other people don't know the choices they are making too. You made choices and some of that was discipline to somebody else's program. Some people benefit from going along because they know the trade off they make (part of a free country is to be free to be a damn stupid follower, and not so stupid if you like the pay-off you get from following, in fact sometimes it's the adult thing to do). Some people do lack balls, and many lack critical thinking skills; that will *always* be the case - part of the human condition. Do you remember the story of the emperors new clothes? How old must that fable be now? - *not a modern invention*.

You are using all this we, we, we, not the people I choose to associate with, not people you are required to keep in your inner circle either. You seem to want to have a hissy fit at some generic we - well I don't know who this we is, not my problem. I guess this is yours to deal with. I don't feel oppressed or not free, and have never had trouble that anyone could talk me into or pressure me into anything! Some people have thin skin or boundary issues, I'm not a shrink. And I don't want to become the thin skin police. 

There was a day when a woman could feel pressured to sleep with a boss to keep her job, we have laws for that. We just passed a gay marriage law, what the hell do you want? If you see a cause then go fight for it, go for it, that's what I've said all along. 

So far all I hear is righteous indignation, which is a dime a dozen (against an undefined foe, society in genera? technology?). You want to do posturing about how you have a secret plan with people in high places or whatever allows you to feel good about yourself - fine, whatever - not my problem. I offered what I could about goals and building something from scratch, since maybe all you know so far in your young life is bureaucracy, not anything left to say.


----------



## Roady82

Old Intern said:


> @Roady82 Your life choices partly required you to learn how to fall in line, doesn't mean other people don't know the choices they are making too. You made choices and some of that was discipline to somebody else's program. Some people benefit from going along because they know the trade off they make (part of a free country is to be free to be a damn stupid follower, and not so stupid if you like the pay-off you get from following, in fact sometimes it's the adult thing to do). Some people do lack balls, and many lack critical thinking skills; that will *always* be the case - part of the human condition. Do you remember the story of the emperors new clothes? How old must that fable be now? - *not a modern invention*.
> 
> You are using all this we, we, we, not the people I choose to associate with, not people you are required to keep in your inner circle either. You seem to want to have a hissy fit at some generic we - well I don't know who this we is, not my problem I guess this is yours to deal with. I don't feel oppressed or not free, and have never had trouble that anyone could talk me into or pressure me into anything! Some people have thin skin or boundary issues, I'm not a shrink. And I don't want to become the thin skin police.
> 
> There was a day when a woman could feel pressured to sleep with a boss to keep her job, we have laws for that. We just passed a gay marriage law, what the hell do you want? If you see a cause then go fight for it, go for it, that's what I've said all along.


Our frustration seems to be a defense mechanism in response to some perceived "level" of understanding. I never called anyone stupid. I honestly understand the value of thinking that is not achievable by my processes, it doesn't offend me or frustrate me. Please know that I do care... or I wouldn't bother trying (failing miserably) to explain. But my end result is not comprised of one or two color by number steps. I'm truly sorry your upset, and furthermore that my inability to effectively communicate my point is the cause. If you are generally interested, I would strongly recommend "Finding your element" by Ken Robinson. He is traditionally educated and has the accreditations that make people feel comfortable listening to something they may not fully understand.


----------



## Old Intern

drmiller100 said:


> Welcome Tez to our discussions.
> 
> You are absolutely correct - those who point out too much often end up dead, in prison, or worse. Earlier in the thread I mentioned the movie "Flash of genius" about a guy who self imploded because he could not separate his identity with his idea. Just as ruined, just as much a life wasted.
> 
> Atlas Shrugged to me was a love story, and the whole point to the book is to learn to step aside and let the world and people do what they will.
> 
> My job is to live my life!


This is a good answer for you in the context of your life and responsibilities and wants, for now, and for as long as you choose, and nothing wrong with that, of course.

I've read enough of Rands work to know she hates marketers. It goes along with how she is typed as INTJ. The absoluteness of Te/Fi working together reinforces her belief that anything worthy will come to light of it's own accord, and eventually be self evident to those worthy of seeing the truth - or something like that. If you think about where she was in history, long before glory days of advertising in the sixties; if you put that historical placement with Ni consolidating symbolism - advertising is snake oil salesmanship, (or propaganda) in her mind.

Today we still have things like luck and timing, and flat out theft, but we have other choices too.
---------

Indulge me with one other thing I can't prove, just a thought.

Million years ago, my INTJ friend with very impressive resume and credentials, invented a medical clip, improvement of an existing product. The case could be demonstrated how this helps nurses and doctors respond quickly with less room for error. So this is morally and factually better right? But do we know that workers will take advantage of this improvement? Or will they react instinctively to what they are used to? As it turned out he couldn't sell it. While in this particular phase of his life he sold a couple other things, earned royalties on something, don't know if it was big or small. . . . he let the clip idea go. He eventually resumed from his time-out from corporate life. So yes he moved on.

But that doesn't tell me Rands fantasies about rightness are always the way to go. Many times the smarter product looses because the transition does cost an adjustment period. Stupid ass backwards IS factually cheaper because stupid has a known factor already calculated in the bigger plan of somebody's life, or organization. It's not intellectually honest to demonize this part of human nature. I'ts the job of the promoter or marketer to maximize trust and minimize risk (in the buyers mind), or decide this is not doable, or not worthwhile. 

But of of course "** time and chance happens to us all . . . . .". 

** Ecclesiastes, I think.


----------



## series0

Old Intern said:


> Bold part is not exactly true. We may have a problem where financial market services and the top one percent make or keep more money than what is productive to continue with as a society. Business owners discuss with each other the benefits about business paperwork and what can be deducted and how this works in favor of owning a business. I know first hand how this creates jobs at the beginning and intermediate level.
> 
> What is sounds like you assume where I bolded your quote, is that the bold characterizes anyone who is profitable, or at least that top one percent - not true.
> 
> Quite a few books have been written about the difference between self employment and business ownership. And Iv'e seen some of this in my own life, would like to see more. When you build a system and the system makes money for you; you have created value, jobs, and freedom (freedom from OCD and other unhealthy behavior) because you delegate and automate, and produce something other people want or need enough to vote for it with their own hard earned money!
> 
> *The last thing we want is to throw this away! You will never have universal wisdom, different people are wise in one way and not in another. Some of this is chosen. The person who puts order to these differences, like an orchestration, they deserve reward - more than the person who just shows up and likes to bitch about whoever is in charge!*


And I suppose I just disagree. Rewards are, at their core, the real problem.

The reward is in the doing and being capable. Extrinsic rewards beyond that, to me, are the birth of the evil of greed and money. Take a person already 'blessed' with the right traits as a means to power or 'success' and then give them more, at the expense of everyone else.

And NO, I do not agree that they help others, at least not with equity. They help who they want to in the way they want to, and although they are workaholics and success/image oriented people their judgement otherwise is piss poor typically. They are unfit to make the choices success thrusts upon them. And thus ... the world we live in.

The first thing I want to do is throw this away.


----------



## Old Intern

series0 said:


> And I suppose I just disagree. Rewards are, at their core, the real problem.
> 
> The reward is in the doing and being capable. Extrinsic rewards beyond that, to me, are the birth of the evil of greed and money. Take a person already 'blessed' with the right traits as a means to power or 'success' and then give them more, at the expense of everyone else.
> 
> And NO, I do not agree that they help others, at least not with equity. They help who they want to in the way they want to, and although they are workaholics and success/image oriented people their judgement otherwise is piss poor typically. They are unfit to make the choices success thrusts upon them. And thus ... the world we live in.
> 
> The first thing I want to do is throw this away.


There is a side to your comment here that I agree with; motivation is often about recognition, or autonomy, or appreciation from peers, or about making something good happen, or benefit to a loved one, and in the case of strong Ti, sometimes pure curiosity. 

The problem comes in, with keeping score to create structure that will be productive and functional for society. The person who provides a unit of labor needs to figure out how to add something beyond that replaceable unit, mostly because he doesn't know what he thinks he knows until he is invested beyond showing up.

It sounds crass to say we keep score with money but investment helps us make hard choices. We know what we value if we sacrifice one thing for another, talk is cheap. I can't argue what the baseline safety net should be, we obviously must have one, but labor being the primary creation of value is blatantly not true.

Markets may be starting to correct de-valueing of labor, we will see what happens in Seattle. 

Many big businesses have to start small and one out of five doesn't make it! I think that speaks to the worthiness of your "workaholics" who create jobs.


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## drmiller100

series0 said:


> And I suppose I just disagree. Rewards are, at their core, the real problem.
> 
> The reward is in the doing and being capable. Extrinsic rewards beyond that, to me, are the birth of the evil of greed and money. Take a person already 'blessed' with the right traits as a means to power or 'success' and then give them more, at the expense of everyone else.
> 
> And NO, I do not agree that they help others, at least not with equity. They help who they want to in the way they want to, and although they are workaholics and success/image oriented people their judgement otherwise is piss poor typically. They are unfit to make the choices success thrusts upon them. And thus ... the world we live in.
> 
> The first thing I want to do is throw this away.


Flaming hoops, money, marketing, power, politics, socialism are all there for a reason. They keep the masses fed, happy, and out of my way. 

When done, look at what Galt's Gulch looked like. Simple life including only simple people who charged what it was worth and reaped the benefits earned.

I have a cabin in Galt's Gulch. I'm not ready yet.


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## drmiller100

Old Intern said:


> , we will see what happens in Seattle.


Greece is a better example.


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## drmiller100

@treestan

hey folks, I found another ENTP 8 who seems brighter than the average......


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## Old Intern

drmiller100 said:


> Greece is a better example.


Maybe, but they have layers and layers of trouble don't they?

I heard Walmart is raising wages; but they might hope people don't see what is underneath the TV PR? They will be competing with Amazon online; I think this means if they keep brick and mortar stores they have to put more into giving a better customer service experience face to face.

Something in my email advised that "fast food" chains with bad customer service are tanking in stock prices
not that I play the market:computer:

*@*series0 may be talking about a corporate level - Bureaucracy, what can you do?

Why Galt's Gulch, when you could just be Amish? But maybe they wouldn't allow generators to run your inventions. . . . . . . . have friends into mining? Uphold that gold standard at Galt's?


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## drmiller100

Someday people who work will get tired of working for those who don't, and people might get hungry. It happened in Russia a few years ago, it happened in China, it almost happened in Greece, it might happen in parts of the US like the west coast or a big city someday.


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## drmiller100

another way to describe it

Robert Kegan’s stages of Social Maturity/ orders of consciousness | The Mouse Trap


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## Roady82

series0 said:


> And I suppose I just disagree. Rewards are, at their core, the real problem.
> 
> The reward is in the doing and being capable. Extrinsic rewards beyond that, to me, are the birth of the evil of greed and money. Take a person already 'blessed' with the right traits as a means to power or 'success' and then give them more, at the expense of everyone else.
> 
> And NO, I do not agree that they help others, at least not with equity. They help who they want to in the way they want to, and although they are workaholics and success/image oriented people their judgement otherwise is piss poor typically. They are unfit to make the choices success thrusts upon them. And thus ... the world we live in.
> 
> The first thing I want to do is throw this away.


I absolutely agree with you. In fact, a couple years ago, somebody did a TED talk on the negative effects of both incentives and rewards. Summed up shortly, they create a cause and effect expectation in the "act" of doing. Two harmful consequences off the top: First, it defines the moral value of the act itself; removing the social consciousness and an individuals ability to apply conventional wisdom to any situation. Second: As a residual effect from the first, It will create a market value or expectation of return for the exchange of performing act, further removing the human element and/or the morals and ethics that define a cultural identity.

I wasn't quoting the TED reference, that is my regurgitated version... however, it's on point... and I believe to be valid.



> Quite a few books have been written about the difference between self employment and business ownership. And Iv'e seen some of this in my own life, would like to see more. When you build a system and the system makes money for you; you have created value, jobs, and freedom (freedom from OCD and other unhealthy behavior) because you delegate and automate, and produce something other people want or need enough to vote for it with their own hard earned money!





> The last thing we want is to throw this away! You will never have universal wisdom, different people are wise in one way and not in another. Some of this is chosen. The person who puts order to these differences, like an orchestration, they deserve reward - more than the person who just shows up and likes to bitch about whoever is in charge!


This issue speaks to a passion of mine. Where universal wisdom may not be a probability, it might not need to be a necessity within a free market based economic system. If a society educates their children to be self-aware and emotionally intelligent; identifying learning styles, aptitudes, and passions... the residual effects of this interpersonal knowledge will fundamentally influence the entire culture as a whole... organically, through the generational process.

If everyone was aware of our differences, and our culture supported and encouraged the development of our organic selves... by creating a non-standardized process of development... as opposed to "educating" them on what we tell them they SHOULD be good at by short-term memorization of a standard single lesson, in a single learning format; we would be creating an entire society without fear of failure, or low self-steem, no bullying, or instilling a demand to be in constant competition. We currently "leave behind" so many kids that continue throughout their lives believing they're not smart... all because our single, standardize idea of academic competence, doesn't appeal or doesn't challenge their nature learning type.

A culture's ability to evolve with and adapt to the natural growth and increase in knowledge, will be directly reliant upon the people's ability to accept it, adapt to it, and continue growing as a result of it's inevitability. However, in my opinion, the one percent right now is subjugating the people in our country by controlling not only the flow of information, but the information that flows as well. Every single one percent'er has a tie or interest in one or many lobbyist organizations, which controls policy. Then for the trifecta, the economic system... IN MY OPINION, our current economic system is far from a free market economy. If the top one percent pulled all their money out of our markets, it would crash immediately. Market values are based on how much they currently are investing... in their own products... because they own the company's making them, or outsources them. The citizens that do work here are paid a fraction of the price you'll need to buy all the SHIT they create in order to sell more product. It's a dehumanizing form of freed slaves. In fact, they are so arrogant about the amount of shit they have for you to buy, they don't pay you more... they offer to lend you money at a percentage rate in exchange for their act of generosity to lend to you. To me, if these things are true, they already violate the values I believe our Country was built and is still being 'USED' to keep them uninformed distracted, afraid, and gutless. So one day I was fuckin around and stumbled across the word plutocracy. 

These are my views and opinions, they are subjective by nature... I'm not trying to change anyone else beliefs or way of life. I'm not bitching, complaining, or blaming any one person, organization, or lack of foresight... In my opinion, this was the natural progression of a society that experienced a short-term growth rate over a decade that is not comparable to any period in the history of the world. However, we have been gaining knowledge and creating and sharing information at en epic rate. These opinions are how I see our society could best apply our lessons learned to better suit the over-all wellbeing and productivity of our future.


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## Old Intern

drmiller100 said:


> another way to describe it
> 
> Robert Kegan’s stages of Social Maturity/ orders of consciousness | The Mouse Trap


I was thinking this was a good place for this too.

I have to get myself working and focused on other things so, I'll not keep hogging the thread but wanted to address this here just once. 

Maybe redundant but: Fe - means through the other's eyes, or what is already publicly known on some level, and Te is objectively established but also publicly known and accepted. 

You have two choices, act on what is known (to the large group) or even with a small group, find that group; Or else you have to define your own architecture based on YOUR desired outcome, and what you are willing to do <*even if this is all for public good - wonderful*, but take responsibility that this is still all you trying to do something! You don't control the outcome - so do it or don't do it but you have to define it, or I guess you could pray.

I went through this when I was 30ish. A book, don't remember the name, and it had a religious framework but you don't need to take it that way. *The difference between being called or driven, *was outlined as an idea in this book. You don't have to believe in god to recognize how driven can equal burn out. 

So the movie about the inventor mentioned in this thread, not sure if we can say he was "called" or driven. If he needed external validation and that was what the whole thing was about, then he won a battle and lost the war. If he believed this contribution was his Mona Lisa, (like he said), the whole thing can mean something else. If he believed that being an inventor was what he was "meant to do" in the sense that his ideas are a primary part of the raw material God or the universe gave him, for his part to play, and there are other people like him with similar gifts, then it is wrong or bad for society to let those gifts be discredited. He was called a liar, and this is bad for anyone with abilities like his for a corporation to get away with this. So then, how do we know what was" meant to be"? We only know what history tells us and before that - we make choices.


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## Roady82

drmiller100 said:


> Laughing....
> Aptitudes is the ability to do things. Roady thinks he can do a lot of things better than most people. Like math. And how things work. and focus. and shooting. and creativity.
> I'm also better than most at most things.
> 
> If you take all the people you have met in your life, are you better at math than most? Are you better in philosophy than the 24 year old gas station attendant?
> 
> Own it. Accept it. I believe modesty is denial of truth. Modesty is taught by the mediocre to embrace mediocrity.
> 
> Your specialty is understanding the system of systems to determine truth from opinion.
> 
> Kegan, Piaget, Maslow, et al would agree that qualifies.
> 
> I'm a nerd who has sex a LOT.


I realize that this post is quite a ways back... but, I unsubscribed to this thread because I thought our discussion about TMA had reached it's conclusion... apparently a rookie mistake.

However, I did want to something out about Dr. Millers post here. I do believe that I have an understanding of how things work, but that is not why I'm perhaps better than most... I don't even like comparing myself to most in those terms. Reason being, I "MAY" be better at most in a lot of things but it's only because I enjoy trying different things... and through its natural course... I have perhaps done more things, but I also find a lot of value (personally) in the process of doing those "things". My joy is rarely in the end product, it's all about creating something from things not "intended" to for that purpose. So, I may or may not be better than most at math... in fact, I find math beyond basic level math pointless... for my applications. I just like to race the cash register to figure my change or something with no real value like that... Dr. Miller may have just been using an example, I understand that... so was I.


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## Roady82

Old Intern said:


> @Roady82 your last blog post seemed like emotional pandering and I think people your age and younger are a bit brainwashed about egalitarianism, without looking at the mechanics or "business models" of life. All emotion and no critical thinking or problem solving/ suggestions /proposals or practical answers, like I said before there seems to be a market for preaching to the converted which in this case would be people who want to feel like victims. I think you can do something more positive than that but it's not showing in the John Wayne post.
> 
> I don't understand going on about your childhood - after a point. I mean you are assuming that people are branded according to who their parents were and that's bullshit or it was bullshit until all these third wave activists who are mostly rich kids with nothing to do, started trying to resurrect the 60s.
> 
> You could use your story in a positive way. Your last blog post sounds like SJW, post modernist drama. I wouldn't bother to say anything but I do because some of your other blog posts have personality and weight like maybe something good to come out of it.
> 
> I thought I read in something you posted about some entrepreneurship experience, so why would you insist that if somebody isn't going to Yale their life is doomed? Our society this and that - all broad strokes gloom and doom - this is terribly unoriginal compared to what I thought I understood about you at first.
> 
> You asked about your communication skills somewhere up the thread. I'm not going to keep watching this thread because we may have covered as much as we can. But In response to personalities and writing skill - Ti people want to see critical thinking and plans, not all this doomsday whining. But again, the background you gave in the first blog posts I read - I was impressed.
> 
> Making money by pandering to people who want to feel bad or angry *is* being done a lot with advertising and patreon accounts on YouTube - so that is what I was saying about profit.
> 
> If i'm getting redundant, it was mentioned people here want to change the world; and I've been intensely surveying YouTube to see styles and techniques - so I'm just relating according to what I've been immersed in. So many "virtual tools", lot of junk out there, but real journalism starting to develop too.
> 
> *@*series0 loved the fiddler on the roof comment
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ..... now I have that song in my head.


I won't make these little comments too long but there's no way I can just say nothing about some of these, especially when they are addressed to me. So I'll be brief on this post. Old Intern, you are not just a little off base... you are not even in the same time era that bases existed within games. I'm not saying your not smart or have great idea's or thoughts or FIRM grasp of your reality... but maybe consider not trying to classify me or my intent with something else anywhere. Try looking at it like... my thoughts and ideas are mine... from me... based on me... because of me... whatever... I ran out of shit to put in front of me... haha, I just did it again! I've never been around my age group, I've never been apart of any "hip" trends", I've never read any fair tale books (I've heard of the stories), I've never sought for the approval of what society thought - not out of spite, I just didn't... I just liked to know for myself, and that was interesting to me. It doesn't need a "IU" TM" iTBM" "a hug" "a kiss" "a reference point" a superhero", it didn't even require the approval of Chuck fucking Norris. I know that I don't need to point out that Jung was a researcher, MBTi and it's functions are the best tool we have to generally classify the most complex system ever known. Someone compared humans trying to understand the complexity to our brains to a laptop turning it's own camera on it's circuit board.

The references I make to the things I make them against are just mostly ironic observations of my total experiences. If you don't get them, it's not a reflection or your intelligence any more that it's a reflection of the lack of mine. Your word choices are shitty in the nature you want them to be received. Like a dog protecting it's bone when he heard the dog bone factory was never making anymore bones... it was unnecessary but understandable... understandable, because he's a dog... he doesn't understand anything outside of his capacity... unnecessary, because there's a brand new shiny dog bone factory being built right down the road. Sorry, if anything was hurtful... I'm not perfect, again.. I am just unapologetically myself, is that okay with you?


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## Roady82

Just want to point out that I realize Jung didn't create MBTi, don't want anyone to get caught up on the details there... Alright, I have to go take a grown up time out. I hope everyone is doing well. I love you all.


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## drmiller100

Roady82 said:


> t. I hope everyone is doing well. I love you all.


smiles, and no worries. Life is good!


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## Old Intern

My mistake, I thought this was sort of like a mastermind group. Too many aptitudes could be about how so much is happening and not knowing where is best to put your time, so I shared my experiences. @Roady82 though it's not my favorite approach, some people believe they are making a difference with using the internet to discuss social issues. So I wondered if this might be something you would do. You want to read articles about how the plutocracy wont let you do this because they have all the power. Oh well. My mistake, if this is a circle jerk, might not do anything for me, and I'm not so altruistic I want to do this for you. Good luck.

But seriously, I was referenced so I responded, might be talked out on this one now. I am sorry if my tone came across badly, but surprisingly it's worked out most of the time as far as I can tell on other threads, people learning, including me. One other person I offended that I know of since being here. Other heated discussions seemed worthwhile. My letting go of this thread is just, have to move on to other things and I'll let you guys get back to whatever here.


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## Roady82

Wow! I have a LOT of growing to do in the area of passive-aggressive behavior. I know you are probably a well intended person, but I have this "thing" (let's call it, lack of patience) for hostile force against idea's outside the norm. I like to fix things, anything(s), so I use my imagination and ideas based on the world as I see it around me, I think the it's called divergent thinking, I'm not educated or 60 years old, so that may be wrong (example of passive-aggressive behavior). So FIRST, to fix a problem, I must diagnose the problem, for me, I use the physical world around me to based that diagnoses. The topic of society came up in the beginning, so that has been my topic carried throughout. Even if I'm WAY off, it's still safe to assume that ideals and beliefs during one era, may not be conducive to a different era. My deductions of our society are based on my life experiences... to which I got off my ass and experienced and still are experiences. I do not consider myself a mastermind and have no opinion if someone else choses how they want to consider themselves. I simply see an issue, find out what's causing the issue, and use what I know to create a solution. MOST of the time, I like to use idea's that were not involved in creating the idea's to begin with. The John Wayne analogy was intended to be a comical reference to the resiliency that was built organically during a time with less ways to be a pussy.

I am realizing that the real, physical world that I've been operating... (not viewing from afar) looks much different than the world that was created for most people to sit still, and go to work, and clean there rooms. Needless to say, the transition has not been easy. I don't see how identifying obvious deficiencies within our system of society should offend you so much personally. Try to consider that there are shitty people is the world who don't care about other people, and if those people were in places of influence, they might want to keep it that way. To me, that doesn't seem fair to the other people.

The way our public school system was designed and the way it mostly still operates, has been proven, by people that you've been told to listen to, to be more harmful to the human spirit than is beneficial for a society with our moral and ethical foundation. You don't not need a Phd to see that our country has a lot of unrest. It's not my fault it's that way... don't get upset with ME for pointing it out. If everyone was discouraged to try new ways or different ways of doing something better... we would never get anywhere. but then again, that seems to be our current heading... Well someone or a group of someone's might need speak a language you've been taught to understand, if you lack the testicular fortitude to call a spade a spade then kindly step aside or brace yourself. This dog don't lie!


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## Old Intern

@Roady82 Mastermind was a Napoleon hill reference - Think and grow rich. Not a book to get rich quick really, more like solid advice for me when I felt stuck, years back.

That you are concerned about public education we've covered. I think it is easy for people with Ne to go in so many directions that we can't get traction and find something actionable. If you are in an explorations stage, I can understand that fully, just don't have anything to add here. Common core might still be forming and this election could directly impact your kids, if you haven't researched that yet, it is one of those actionable things, maybe.

If public education is your battle, or concern, or calling, or place to use your experience and connections I genuinely wish you well. It's not my battle. I believe people can learn incredibly fast using the internet, that's my experience. I'm not mad at you, in fact if I didn't think you have something in you - not hard to do a polite exit long time ago. I challenge people if I think there is a chance of "iron sharpening iron". 

In my attempt to figure out or provoke you to get fine tuned - I figured out my new twitter tagline. Won't say it here yet but it's more than a saying, its a mission statement. I had to pick where my angle is to use my best aptitudes in a way that people know exactly what I'm talking about without sounding like everybody else. Key words, buzz words, anyway I got it.

So this is what I do, figure out the main point and call to action. When I hear people, I think of ways to attack something (the problem, not my intention to attack people, just provoke answers), doesn't mean I expect you to do what I say. I throw things at the wall to see what sticks. Sometimes I have to marinate in something before I know what I'm dealing with too, so if that is where you are I get it. Don't have much to add about unrest in the country, although things seem to be starting to smooth out a little where I live.

------------
Don't know what the passive aggressive comment was about because I think I was pretty direct and aggressive. Anything indirect was not intended or even known about by me.


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## series0

More to say on this buy was absent a few days and too tired tonight to post some responses to the wonderful responses I got.


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## Old Intern

Could be some adversarial leanings of this thread happened because I shared what my "work-around" has been, without addressing our *common n**emesis*?

This is oversimplified (and abstracted) but these are my 8 function definitions as pertaining to this thread.

*Mission criteria, Judgement Functions:*
*Te* - resource management 
*Ti* - tool making
*Fi* - reward (and punishment?) defining
*Fe* - safety in numbers or social orchestration
-------------

*Perceiving - Experience filters - a Default Setting:
Ne* - expansive imagination
*Ni* - consolidating imagination
*Se* - unfiltered experience of experiences
*Si* - subjective attachment and associations of experience, assigning credibility to what is familiar.
----------------------------

Some ENTP's have found balance in an Si dom partner but for some of us - this is like poison. Si is not rational so you can't change it directly. Jung describes all Perceiving functions as pre-language, irrational. The Si preference sometimes creates followers who follow even if what has always been done isn't making sense now. It's about comfort.

So what I'm saying about the industrial age being gone - today is the wild west; it's our time now! We don't change human nature - we find and build the new normal. And then Si dom and Si secondary natures in the general sense of "they" that we have trouble with, will follow along: quack quack waddle waddle, little duckies in a row.

We sandwich enough indisputable Fe or Te because going against Si won't work, you have to make a connection somewhere to get anything done. Si makes us mad because it is direct opposition to Ne.

Forgive another business analogy (** it's all I got), I called on people I could tell were a good fit first (innovative, pragmatic, fearless in their market). Without having a label for it at the time, I think my best customers were ENTJ, ENTP, ESTP, and a few INTJ's. Then guess what? Once I had a few examples of what their competitors were doing, I could showcase it to the Si-ish prospects and they would say "This seems to be what everyone is doing now". Implied meaning "maybe we should do this too" - is that funny or what?

** understood these are local small potatoes compared to corp world in general, I suppose.

So I wasn't telling anyone on this thread they "should" anything - only saying that bitching about human nature is pointless, and sometimes you can find a work-around if you want to.


*Another way to apply* the above definitions and not be bitching about human nature:
A recent marketing book referenced in YouTube help video's was called _Primal Branding_. They used Jenna Marbles as an example. I know for sure I am no *Jenna Marbles*, but the point they were making is how her habit of talking baby-talk to her dogs at the end creates a *tradition* that makes her remembered and liked because it makes people feel good. I'ts a ritual that builds the sense of community.

Now just because I have a drive that when something becomes routine I don't want it anymore, (and I don't care how Jenna talks to her dogs), doesn't mean I couldn't automate something like theme music and a cartoon that eventually changes - at the closing, for a video series of my own. If I do video as an ongoing thing, why work against human nature? I can make variety on other parts. We can automate (or delegate) some of the tradition we don't want to be bothered with, if it furthers our cause. Repetition is part of brand building, doesn't mean we have to DO mindless repetitive tasks.


BTW, @drmiller100 is more YouTube expert than me, his products were in demand? We both have 4 videos produced near same time frame. His were to sell products, mine were for video making/practice/*testing* - that might say something about my lower 8/5 :ball:status :tongue:. My first efforts, and so far video intent is just an excuse to keep connected with local prospects. But I'm looking at all the angles.


----------

