# Women's Complaints about Men



## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Duck_of_Death said:


> Too long, didn't read.
> 
> Frankly, I find it disturbing that you view an entire generation of men as frat boys with permanent hard-ons who lack self-awareness collectively.


"Too long didn't read?" And you're disturbed that I'm stereotyping people as frat boys? Oh the irony. Anyway whatever. I'm finished trying to educate you on this matter, but thank you for finally sharing your thoughtful response.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

MXZCCT said:


> Because Duck put a little spice in this thread. It wasn't hard, considering he knew how headstrong you were.


And what an amazing insight he shared by not bothering to actually read my response. : P


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## MXZCCT (May 29, 2011)

Promethea said:


> And what an amazing insight he shared by not bothering to actually read my response. : P


It is an interesting insight, if you know where to look.


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

Promethea said:


> I'm finished trying to educate you on this matter


And this is where I thank you.
So thanks.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

MXZCCT said:


> It is an interesting insight, if you know where to look.


Ah yes, the perspective of "I don't give a fuck to think beyond what I think I see." - In other words, the glorification of what exists; whats popular is right, whats right is popular, and top-down societal analysis of culture: things are this way, so lets justify why they should be this way. No thanks. I examine a bit more deeply. There is far more to humanity than many think.


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## Stephen (Jan 17, 2011)

MXZCCT said:


> Your right. But how do you notice your SO in the first place? It's not like you looked at her and said "I love her personality!!!"
> 
> See where I'm going with this?


As I said, I do understand.

I met @Kayness on here in April. She approached me after seeing me debate another member, and was disarmingly complimentary. We became friends, and attraction developed and grew over time. All three of my relationships since my marriage ended have begun online. I contacted my ex-wife online after reading a singles ad in 1997 that didn't even have a photo. The girlfriend I had before that, I met at a party for an online chat group, she happened to be sitting next to me and we started talking about the party.

See where I'm going with this? :wink:


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## Erbse (Oct 15, 2010)

Stephen said:


> See where I'm going with this? :wink:


Ha I know, I KNOW!

You're a possible creep, stalker, murderer and rapist.

Wait, wrong direction, aren't I? 

Inb4 possible butthurtness, just kidding.


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## Stephen (Jan 17, 2011)

Erbse said:


> Ha I know, I KNOW!
> 
> You're a possible creep, stalker, murderer and rapist.
> 
> ...


Hahahahaahah!


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## MXZCCT (May 29, 2011)

Promethea said:


> Ah yes, the perspective of "I don't give a fuck to think beyond what I think I see." - In other words, the glorification of what exists; whats popular is right, whats right is popular, and top-down societal analysis of culture: things are this way, so lets justify why they should be this way. No thanks. I examine a bit more deeply. There is far more to humanity than many think.


You can look and analyze all you want, but at the end of the day it will only affect you. Your not going to change anything. Look out for numero uno, thats all that matters when it comes to this topic. And that's the point. At the end of the day each individual is responsible for his/her own happiness and security.


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## MXZCCT (May 29, 2011)

Stephen said:


> As I said, I do understand.
> 
> I met @Kayness on here in April. She approached me after seeing me debate another member, and was disarmingly complimentary. We became friends, and attraction developed and grew over time. All three of my relationships since my marriage ended have begun online. I contacted my ex-wife online after reading a singles ad in 1997 that didn't even have a photo. The girlfriend I had before that, I met at a party for an online chat group, she happened to be sitting next to me and we started talking about the party.
> 
> See where I'm going with this? :wink:


Yeah. I do. I'm glad that worked out for you, in that manner.


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## Palaver (Jan 5, 2010)

Promethea said:


> However, the men I have known who didn't have this shame and could actually take women seriously enough to listen to them seem to have more female friends and more happy partners in relationships. But hey, bros before hos, amirite?


Men might have the opposite perception. They see jerks having a better go at relationships or sex and decide to play the same game. This is colored by what they see as a healthy or successful male, which may not mesh with your ideal.

Is having female friends (the friend ladder) or being committed in a long term relationship (which focus on happiness) what males want? Or maybe you thought it we were suppose to be like that because all your male friends are that way? :wink:

Also, "listening" is a passive action. We can all easily listen. This is the roundabout way of addressing a core issue. From a male perspective, if there is problem in the decision making process, propose a rule change or declare an ultimatum. Constant nagging only pisses us off. You are training a man to ignore you when you nag, but women seem to think it gets them what they want. Poor social skills apply to both men and women--unlike some stereotypes. Some people learn faster than others.


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## chip (Oct 12, 2011)

ya know, some men don't consider women to nag when they express how they feel. I don't see how angered emotions can be considered nagging. That's silly to turn human emotions into something so stupid.


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## Mutatio NOmenis (Jun 22, 2009)

Because this thread demands it, I must make a counterattack.












> Women's Complaints about Men


Well, are you going to give me the truth or are you just going to say "you know what's wrong!"?



> 1. They are not understanding enough.


We are simple creatures. We require: Food, pussy, and booze. We don't grasp the need to match outfits and get special pairs of shoes.



> 2. They are not sensitive to feelings and needs.


See the above rebuttal. Also, we'd be happy to respond if you didn't expect us to get everything by moon logic implication.



> 3. They are not affectionate enough.


Lose 50 pounds and then we'll talk.



> 4. They tend to bypass sexual foreplay, and are quick to ejaculate thus losing their sexual interest, before the woman is satisfied.


We can only finger bang for so long before we get bored. Also, you can do exercises to increase stamina.



> 5. They do not communicate enough. They do not express their feelings and thoughts.


The way we're trained means that emotive=weak=gay=acceptable target.



> 6. They do not pay enough attention to their partners.


If you weren't so ugly, then I'd be happy to do it at any time other than 1 A.M. with the lights off.



> 7. They do not spend enough time at home with their children.


HELLO! Full Time Job! 8 hours a day getting enough money to support you all! Would you rather that we starve?



> 8. They do not help with order and cleanliness of the home.


Well, every time we do help, you moan that it isn't clean enough.



> 9. They do not appreciate the work involved in keeping up the home or in bearing and bringing up children and do not compensate this contribution to family life.


Well, we've still been laying your fat ass for the past 9 years, and doing thankless, draining work to support you. How about that?



> 10. They make decisions about work and life without regarding the woman's or the family's needs.


Wife, the world will not self-destruct because I don't take you out to a fancy french restaurant once every month. Son, learn my cell phone number and to calculate time zones.



> 11. They create extramarital relationships.


It takes a couple to copulate, so blame yourselves.


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## Who (Jan 2, 2010)

I think this is the best thread we've ever had.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

MXZCCT said:


> You can look and analyze all you want, but at the end of the day it will only affect you. Your not going to change anything. Look out for numero uno, thats all that matters when it comes to this topic. And that's the point. At the end of the day each individual is responsible for his/her own happiness and security.


Seeing as this is a typology forum, I'd think you'd realize that some types are more prone to analyze and speculate.. and even want to affect the external. Nothing wrong with it. Just because I do these things doesn't mean that I don't look out for myself. God forbid I want to have a positive affect in this shitty culture? It makes me sick to see people suffering over the crud in this wasteland. I will keep sharing my knowledge with others. I have many tell me that it has helped them. I enjoy that.


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## Palaver (Jan 5, 2010)

chip said:


> ya know, some men don't consider women to nag when they express how they feel. I don't see how angered emotions can be considered nagging. That's silly to turn human emotions into something so stupid.


You mention nagging so I assume you're addressing my post.

Nagging is not the simple definition of expressing anger. If fact, it may have little to do with anger. Nagging is persistent, irritating faultfinding--criticism as psychological warfare. It's similar to what makes men go mad during wars and commit atrocities. If you don't know what is it, then you haven't properly experienced it. You might see a man snap at his wife in public after she makes a comment. That would be a totally uncalled-for reaction--if it was the first time that he had heard it. If it was the 1000th time he'd heard it, I would give him a medal for not flipping out.

Though, I believe that personality is a more precise indicator than gender. Men can also nag women. However, many, if not most, women are Fe's (extroverted feelers); they have to express/dominate the mood of the situation. I'm a highly sensitive INTP (inferior Fe), so I'm easily overwhelmed by the moods of other people. Fe women are great when they are happy. When they are miserable or get on their emotion roller-coasters, I have to walk away. Men also do it to men. My male INTP friend won't hang out with my male INFJ (secondary Fe) friend because the INFJ's misery is so contagious. I'm not so bad about this, I suppose.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Mutatio NOmenis said:


> Lose 50 pounds and then we'll talk.


Grow four inches first.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

chip said:


> ya know, some men don't consider women to nag when they express how they feel. I don't see how angered emotions can be considered nagging. That's silly to turn human emotions into something so stupid.


Its just a way to trivialize a person's feelings that they don't want to deal with.


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## Proteus (Mar 5, 2010)

Palaver said:


> Men might have the opposite perception. They see jerks having a better go at relationships or sex and decide to play the same game. This is colored by what they see as a healthy or successful male, which may not mesh with your ideal.


As others in this thread have mentioned, such a mindset is unhealthy, myopic, and a poor excuse for not thinking for oneself. Many men do have these skewed ideals of what it means to be "successful" and cease ruminate on their own values, perpetuating this behavior.



> Is having female friends (the friend ladder) or being committed in a long term relationship (which focus on happiness) what males want? Or maybe you thought it we were suppose to be like that because all your male friends are that way? :wink:


Some people like to be friends with other people they have things in common with and enjoy communicating with, regardless of gender and have different ideals for what they want out of a relationship. It's important that people be upfront with eachother about these things from the get-go. Everyone has different desires when it comes to a relationship and no one is "supposed" to be a certain way just because they may or may not have a Y chromosome.



> Also, "listening" is a passive action.


If so, you're doing it wrong. There's this thing called communication. It involves actively listening and responding, rather than writing off someone else thoughts/feelings as irrelevant or nagging.



> We can all easily listen. This is the roundabout way of addressing a core issue. From a male perspective, if there is problem in the decision making process, propose a rule change or declare an ultimatum. Constant nagging only pisses us off. You are training a man to ignore you when you nag, but women seem to think it gets them what they want. Poor social skills apply to both men and women--unlike some stereotypes. Some people learn faster than others.


There is no such thing as a universal "male perspective". Or "female perspective". Individuals have different perspectives based on their own personalities and life experiences, and trying to suggest that they all could or should have the same is just wrong.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Palaver said:


> Men might have the opposite perception. They see jerks having a better go at relationships or sex and decide to play the same game. This is colored by what they see as a healthy or successful male, which may not mesh with your ideal.
> 
> Is having female friends (the friend ladder) or being committed in a long term relationship (which focus on happiness) what males want? Or maybe you thought it we were suppose to be like that because all your male friends are that way? :wink:
> 
> Also, "listening" is a passive action. We can all easily listen. This is the roundabout way of addressing a core issue. From a male perspective, if there is problem in the decision making process, propose a rule change or declare an ultimatum. Constant nagging only pisses us off. You are training a man to ignore you when you nag, but women seem to think it gets them what they want. Poor social skills apply to both men and women--unlike some stereotypes. Some people learn faster than others.


Actually understanding women and taking them seriously as human beings will always be the proper way to handle it, no matter what some shithead guy friend says to encourage his bro to manipulate her. askmen.com is full of techniques in emotional abuse and gaslighting - the typical asshole friend advice, and its detrimental to a relationship.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Palaver said:


> I don't know any relationships that don't have communication. Even enemies communicate with each other. Again, you're alluding to something very fuzzy, but agreeable on the surface. It depends on how you try to understand a person. Conflicts arise from misunderstanding each other--not for the lack of an effort. For example, if a person thinks that they can be understood by the another person, that might be a misunderstanding they have about the other person. Demanding to be understood might hurt more than help. Of course, you don't have stick around and wait for the kind of "understanding" you want.
> 
> I don't know what bothers people to enter into particular relationships. There are subconscious processes that are we are not aware off, which science continues to reveal. I'm not ready to commit to the ideals of "communication" and "understanding" as to what initiates and sustains human pair bonding. I treat these are cultural references, a moment in time.
> 
> ...


Shutting down communication is a very common problem in a relationship. Sadly, there are people who won't even try to communicate because they get lazy about it, or just don't give a shit (lack of respect). Bro culture promotes this. I am not saying all men, or even all 'frat boys' : P but rather this mook sort of male that men learn is 'cool' and want to emulate it. Watch the youtube vid merchants of cool for the place that reference came from. Various low-brow cultures put more emphasis on a divide between men and women instead of encouraging understanding and communication. I think many differences between men and women come mostly from our socialization, and then when that gap is pronounced more, it causes a lack of understanding. Listening to and understanding someone elses emotions becomes 'gay dude lol' for example.

And the reason I was pointing out that you were getting personal is because I didn't think it was relevant to the topic. However, we can discuss me all day long in my old type me thread if anyone would find that pleasing.

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-personality-type/23209-what-prometheas-personality-type-ii.html

Any speculations on promethea are welcome there.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Duck_of_Death said:


> The only thing offensive here is your disturbing propensity to place people in boxes.
> Which is subsequently ignorant, by the way.


Uh huh, and you're on a *typology* forum where.. people are put into boxes.



Duck_of_Death said:


> One more thing: People who incessantly whine that the world isn't "fair" don't make themselves any more "attractive", regardless of where they rank on the physical attractiveness scale of 1 to 10.


If anyone finds me less attractive for voicing an opinion they can go to hell. I am not trying to attract people who think women should sit and look pretty, and never point out societal issues. Frankly I'm not trying to attract fucking _anyone_ here.. and thats a screwed up assumption on so many levels.



Duck_of_Death said:


> Several points are also deducted for cramming it down your throat and attempting to recruit you as a soldier in their petty "crusade".


What the hell?

I already told you several posts ago that I am finished with this and yet you keep adding more useless and inflammatory comments. Are you trying to bait me into an argument? You refused to even read the scientific studies, and yet you still keep piping up like you're trying to debate me. Its completely absurd and useless to engage a person who isn't going to examine the evidence in a debate. You have done little else but make uncomfortable speculations on me personally which you are not entitled to seeing as you don't know me, or any of the subject matter in this thread, and you only breezed in to show your ass and make fun of whats being said. Now kindly leave me alone so that I can discuss the actual topic with people who are willing to at least read the articles that I have introduced in this thread as evidence of a cultural issue.


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## Palaver (Jan 5, 2010)

Promethea said:


> Watch the youtube vid merchants of cool for the place that reference came from.


Frontline Merchants of Cool? Are you referencing Douglas Rushkoff? :shocked: I've watched his PBS series and I've read some of his books. Good stuff!  I don't remember anything feminist in his presentations. It was a few years back. I might have to look at that again.




> Various low-brow cultures put more emphasis on a divide between men and women instead of encouraging understanding and communication.


Low-brow? As opposed to "classy"? Lol. That's a little mean to other cultures. 

Not related to low-brow cultures, but I am half Asian and half everything else that is in America. (Now I'm getting personal. :wink The American side of my family is fucked up compared to the Chinese half of my family. I'm not a conservative or a Republican, I'm actually quite liberal politically. Americans, however, have very dysfunctional families. I don't know who caused what or if they are entangled in some feedback loop. If families are allowed to become so dysfunctional, then that has to be at the heart of many other social ills and "misunderstandings", which makes me sound like a Republican--but I'm not.



> I think many differences between men and women come mostly from our socialization, and then when that gap is pronounced more, it causes a lack of understanding. Listening to and understanding someone elses emotions becomes 'gay dude lol' for example.


In U.S. culture, men and women interact freely, so any "misunderstanding" directed from above is hard to maintain because we freely test it against each other. We run into exceptions, but we generally observe some rules. So any of those "misunderstandings" that remain might be genetically hard coded.

I'm biased towards certain sciences for explaining human behavior: neuroscience, biology, and anthropology. Even primatology has made contributions to understanding human beings--even though you reject certain comparisons to apes (I looked at your other post). Politics and culture seem interesting, but the more I discover, the less it seems to matter. So much behavior is written in our biology. Our conscious mind is only remotely connected it.

This is why I am hesitant to dismiss certain behaviors without understanding human biology. This smacks of genetic determinism, but it's really an accommodation to uncertainty. It removes the authority to judge certain behaviors as right or wrong if it can deemed natural.



> Any speculations on promethea are welcome there.


When I saw your rank, I kinda knew I was talking to someone important. Back when I was young, and the internet younger, people would start threads about me. Lol.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Palaver said:


> Frontline Merchants of Cool? Are you referencing Douglas Rushkoff? :shocked: I've watched his PBS series and I've read some of his books. Good stuff!  I don't remember anything feminist in his presentations. It was a few years back. I might have to look at that again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Merchants of cool isn't about feminism, yeah.. not everything I have said in here is either. I simply see it as exposing a cultural issue, really. Men would certainly benefit as well. 

Low brow cultures: ******** for example.. Those also emphasize a divide between genders. Its like a fixation for them. Cultures where ignorance is actually something they are proud of. I certainly didn't mean anything about race, etc. -All- culture, and socialization. 

When you say things like I'm coming off as aggressive, or 'being mean to other cultures' - I think you're misunderstanding what I am. It would be painful for me to tiptoe around being that way. I understand where you are coming from though. I think that you're probably an alpha in socionics and an LII.. which means that you have Fe, and you do value the environment as being friendly, where everyone's amicable and they get along. I don't. Unless someone is actually breaking a forum rule or causing a huge shitstorm, my priorities are totally not on how the atmosphere feels, but on getting my points across in whatever way I can connect them. This is simply a difference in personality. I had this happen with another LII a few times who kept telling me that I was too harsh. I'm not a alpha who values Fe, and so its not something that I'm naturally going to notice or care about. And sry to get personal in return but I noticed this and thought I should shed some light on it.

Human biology explains humanity only in part, and its often taken way out of context in my opinion and here is why: you can't draw a line between this and the other components. Its all interwoven to create a unique creature whos individuality and socialization are also influencing these things, and no one knows where exactly to draw the line. So to say, because apes prefer x, and it seems humans also prefer x, humans prefer x for the same reason. In reality its that some humans prefer x and we can speculate that one of the driving forces is biology. There are far far too many literal claims of that nature. Far too many exceptions in humanity to the rules in the -_theories_- of evolutionary psychology, to say, all humans are biologically hard wired and predisposed to every behaviour. Many of them vary from culture to culture, person to person. I think that in our desire to know everything, need to understand it all, hasty assumptions are made about human nature, like its this one concrete thing that we can even explain away. We certainly cannot.. yet. 

So far as my rank, I'm not a very important pumpkin, but at times I can be a somewhat overstated witch. ; P


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## Palaver (Jan 5, 2010)

> I think that in our desire to know everything, need to understand it all, hasty assumptions are made about human nature, like its this one concrete thing that we can even explain away. We certainly cannot.. yet.


I 100% agree. But some people were born that way. Lol.



> So far as my rank, I'm not a very important pumpkin, but at times I can be a somewhat overstated witch. ; P


roud:




Promethea said:


> When you say things like I'm coming off as aggressive, or 'being mean to other cultures' - I think you're misunderstanding what I am. It would be painful for me to tiptoe around being that way. I understand where you are coming from though. I think that you're probably an alpha in socionics and an LII.. which means that you have Fe, and you do value the environment as being friendly, where everyone's amicable and they get along. I don't. Unless someone is actually breaking a forum rule or causing a huge shitstorm, my priorities are totally not on how the atmosphere feels, but on getting my points across in whatever way I can connect them. This is simply a difference in personality. I had this happen with another LII a few times who kept telling me that I was too harsh. I'm not a alpha who values Fe, and so its not something that I'm naturally going to notice or care about. And sry to get personal in return but I noticed this and thought I should shed some light on it.


Awww. You're sweet. A bit intimidating at first, but easy to talk to. Lets be friends?









(LOL. Sent friend request. Crosses fingers.)


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## Mercer (Nov 6, 2009)

side note, vast majority of divorces are instigated by women, majority of these women admit to having extramarital affairs, and 90% of the women who have extramarital affairs report not feeling guilty regarding said affair.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Mercer said:


> side note, vast majority of divorces are instigated by women, majority of these women admit to having extramarital affairs, and 90% of the women who have extramarital affairs report not feeling guilty regarding said affair.


Thats interesting. Can you link a source for that? I'd be interested in reading more about it.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

MXZCCT said:


> We were discussing the actual topic til you tweaked out over a little ploy Duck used to just "get you going" and you bringing in your personal past of your asshat of a father. Don't be so thin skinned.


Thats not an invitation to insult me, and obviously he was the one who derailed it.. oh but of course I get the blame for "tweaking" - which I didn't actually do. You think you can read way more into my emotional state on the internet than you really can. Talking about my father != speculating that I'm some bitter ogre. 



MXZCCT said:


> As far as the self centered people are concerned, the reason they are the way they are isn't because they are not capable of grasping the fact of being able to care for humanity and others. Its the fact that these self centered people realize it is fucking useless.


I hope I never become so jaded.



MXZCCT said:


> No matter how much you do for others, you are at the mercy of their gratitude. And if they don't respond in the proper manner, or in other words they take you for granted, you did all that work for what? I would be pissed. And I'm sure your "reactive" self would be too.


I am taken for granted by most, under-appreciated by most, but that doesn't change who I am. I don't do what I do expecting reward from others. I do what I know is right. I'm compelled. 

I didn't respond earlier because I saw palavers post first but not this one when skimming.. not that it really matters, because nothing was gained from this exchange anyway but recognizing that you and I have very different reality tunnels.


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

proactive said:


> Throughout 30 years of working with couples and groups, I have observed that women have the following complaints about men.(Robert Elias Najemy)
> 
> 
> Women's Complaints about Men
> ...


Tsk tsk, looks like girls haven't been dating enough INFJs  (hahaha jk) 

Personally, I'm amazed by how pervasive the stereotypes are about male/female relations to the point where the stereotypes are self fulfilling. Another point that (I think) has been raised is that many of these "understanding" and "emotional" traits are generally considered as weaknesses/turn-offs among females. 

Yes, men are definitely more demanding on a woman's physical attributes. But women are very demanding when it comes to a man's psychological and social level. . . it's far more than superficial, it affects behavior over a protracted period and can lead to complaints like those in the OP. 

Sometimes, I discuss something I'm feeling and I get a look from a girl like 

Well, I'm pretty much as far as someone can get when it comes to not giving a shit about social norms and I don't see the problem with wanting a girl who is reasonably in shape. While there are, of course, genetic predispositions (I've got a pretty slow metabolism, or example) The ability to exercise and diet represents _*discipline*_, energy, and physical ability. I work hard in the gym to keep myself where I am and I'd like to date someone with a similar discipline. My body's strong and I've built up my endurance. I'd like to date a woman who values these things as well. 

Well. . . I'm a big fan of rationalism. That can come across as pretty damn insensitive sometimes, but I'm also pretty emotionally intelligent/aware. I love the good emotions, and I know how to get over the negative emotions quickly. 

Sometimes I tell someone how to get over their negative emotions, and they look at me like they've been slapped. 

It makes me wonder. . . do people want to be in pain? Do they want me to understand? Because what I understand is feeling a negative emotion, then rationalizing, centering myself, calling my body to peace, and then feeling peace and quiet fall over me like a shroud. 

That's what I understand. So when I see people reveling in negativity and self-pity I don't really understand, no.


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## Fleetfoot (May 9, 2011)

That's usually the complaints I recieve about myself...o_o


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

Promethea said:


> Thats not an invitation to insult me, and obviously he was the one who derailed it..


I didn't insult you--you're more than capable of doing that to yourself.
And you're the one who made this thread all about YOU and your "crusade".



> oh but of course I get the blame for "tweaking" - which I didn't actually do. You think you can read way more into my emotional state on the internet than you really can. Talking about my father != speculating that I'm some bitter ogre.


There is nothing to think about. You're incredibly transparent and you're the only one who doesn't see it.
All of the shit that spews from your mouth is psychological projection. 
Nothing more, nothing less.



> I am taken for granted by most, under-appreciated by most, but that doesn't change who I am. I don't do what I do expecting reward from others. I do what I know is right. I'm compelled.


It takes respect to gain respect.
First off: You don't respect yourself.
And you certainly don't respect others.

You believe you're some sort of enlightened "prophet" above it all.
And your views reduce an entire population to biological robots who have been reprogrammed.
This is an incredibly UNHEALTHY way to view people.

It is also quite insulting.

Again--you get what you give.


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## FreeSpirit (Jun 1, 2011)

I'm a bit of a loner so I don't really
have all that much experience in the
ways of men in this context.

I do know one special guy, though,
and he's nothing like the description that
opened this thread. 

He does take care of himself (sometimes
I feel that when people are criticizing others'
behavior, they are really criticizing their efforts
to care of themselves) and I see 'taking care
of yourself' as a plus in a relationship. Which 
means he really does need to do 'his own thing'
half the time- people can't just MAKE each other
happy. You've got to do that yourself, and THEN
be together.

So if someone doesn't clean all that much, or spends
a noticeable amount of time doing things on their own,
it could actually be a blessing in disguise.

I'd hate to turn around and see that the guy allowed himself
to be made miserable trying to live up to someone else's 
expectations. That would kill a relationship just as fast,
plus embitter the person towards relationships in general.

Anyway, the guy I know is just as sweet as hell, helps out
cleaning of his own accord (at a reasonable level), is
the most faithful person I've ever met, can easily see
where other people are coming from (though sticks to
his guns on issues he has strong opinions about),
communicates effectively, doesn't like sex if the girl
doesn't get off somehow, and has been serious
about birth control so he doesn't have kids.

Plus, (I've read some of these 'my wife is fat' discourses
in this thread) he's possibly the least shallow person I've
ever met, as well- and genuinely can't stand girls with
shit personalities even if they're smokin' hot. I was just
talking to him yesterday and he was complaining about
how girls come into his work place with their boobs
all hanging out and how it turns him off because it 
suggests they have poor character. He's liked a few
girls I can think of that definitely weren't beauty queens 
because he thought they were cool.


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## MXZCCT (May 29, 2011)

Promethea said:


> Thats not an invitation to insult me, and obviously he was the one who derailed it.. oh but of course I get the blame for "tweaking" - which I didn't actually do. You think you can read way more into my emotional state on the internet than you really can. Talking about my father != speculating that I'm some bitter ogre.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Promethea, why are you being so fucking defensive? I never said you were a bitter ogre. I am standing from a neutral standpoint, which I have already made clear. It is a fallacy to think that just because I'm not screaming "all men are porn addictive womanizers!!!" does not mean I'm disagreeing with you. In a concept itself, it is a great thing you are doing. But the reality is, nothing but the progress of time will change the current situation you choose to meddle in. I'm not jaded, its the truth.

By viewing your responses to this thread, you take a personal stand. Personal means an emotional attachment, and combine that with your self proclaimed reactive personality that's all I need to know, and which is clearly the case.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@FreeSpirit , I almost thought you had posted a poem on the thread (read: formatting)


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## Wheelie (Apr 2, 2010)

I got a question, why did you marry the asshole to begin with? and why on earth did you have his child?

Either these women are completely naive to think he'll change and hope for the best, or they somehow enjoy being treated like they are, and then probably enjoy complaining about them.

I'm sure someone already posted this, but I just wanted to vent .


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## Pachacutie (Aug 27, 2010)

Honestly, @Promethea has some good points and she's backing them up. Quite a few people aren't arguing the actual topic with her and instead are trying to diminish her point by saying she's overzealous. It's a really interesting way to get people on your side. "Hah. Look at them! They're upset! Nothing they say is rational anymore!" 

It looks to me like she's just trying to leave no stone unturned and defend herself. Which, honestly... seems kind of necessary in this situation. Nowhere did she say this applies to every man. Why is a woman standing up for women so scary to some people? I don't really understand it. Disagreeing with her is fine, I might not have presented my argument in the same way, but why is it such a touchy subject with _some_ men? Why does it automatically make the woman a shrew or unattractive? Sometimes you can't timidly argue these points, because you're shot down quickly. So better her than me. 

Some men complain about women treating men the wrong way, or being attracted to assholes, but most women who do that are insecure or just... assholes themselves. Media and cultural norms affect everyone and all of that is just a vicious cycle. My sister is one of those women, so I know first hand how a nice, moral girl can get caught up with "bad boys" and then roll their eyes at men who worship the ground they walk on. She's horribly insecure and doesn't understand what she really deserves yet. So yeah, plenty of women are flawed in this arena as well.

It's just nice to know some men and women are introspective enough to be genuine and do the right thing. No one is perfect, but, people need to grow up.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Duck_of_Death said:


> I didn't insult you--you're more than capable of doing that to yourself.
> And you're the one who made this thread all about YOU and your "crusade".
> 
> 
> ...


Your claims about me are as ignorant as your claims about the topic. Your post is one long personal attack. I was right, you are trying to bait me, and I told you to leave me alone.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

MXZCCT said:


> Promethea, why are you being so fucking defensive? I never said you were a bitter ogre. I am standing from a neutral standpoint, which I have already made clear. It is a fallacy to think that just because I'm not screaming "all men are porn addictive womanizers!!!" does not mean I'm disagreeing with you. In a concept itself, it is a great thing you are doing. But the reality is, nothing but the progress of time will change the current situation you choose to meddle in. I'm not jaded, its the truth.
> 
> By viewing your responses to this thread, you take a personal stand. Personal means an emotional attachment, and combine that with your self proclaimed reactive personality that's all I need to know, and which is clearly the case.


Oh I was very careful to never ever say 'all.' My language is always careful enough to account for exceptions. Now read the studies and you will see that some are. You are the one making a sweeping generalization in the other direction, and claiming that I made all this up from some deluded fantasy, even though there are scientific studies backing it up!


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## MXZCCT (May 29, 2011)

Promethea said:


> Oh I was very careful to never ever say 'all.' My language is always careful enough to account for exceptions. Now read the studies and you will see that some are. You are the one making a sweeping generalization in the other direction, and claiming that I made all this up from some deluded fantasy, even though there are scientific studies backing it up!


How many times have I said you "made it up?" Never.


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

RabbitHeart said:


> Media and cultural norms affect everyone and all of that is just a vicious cycle. My sister is one of those women, so I know first hand how a nice, moral girl can get caught up with "bad boys" and then roll their eyes at men who worship the ground they walk on. She's horribly insecure and doesn't understand what she really deserves yet. So yeah, plenty of women are flawed in this arena as well.


...And these are often the women who use some form of scapegoat as to avoid any form of accountability in their relationship shortcomings.

How convenient.

Oh, and based on my observations, most of these women are "slightly" above average on the looks scale.


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