# Keep Women Safe With 6pm Male Curfew



## Six (Oct 14, 2019)

_6:42 -__ There are more and more rapes where women have been strangled and had very severe injuries and when they go to the police, the police say *"Well you could have consented to this because of wider discourses that strangulation is normal during sex."*_

BOOM

If you are into BDSM or getting choked during sex you are contributing to a problem:

https://digitalcommons.unf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1121&context=soars

So no, you cannot be a "feminist" and have a "rape fantasy" - you are not allowed to just change the rules at your discretion whenever it suits you.


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## Deuce (Feb 16, 2021)

The "rules" ... 🤔


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## Six (Oct 14, 2019)

Deuce said:


> The "rules" ... 🤔


The "rules" by which you purport to make ethical sense of things and by expression of such apply pressure upon me to act a particular way or another - makes sense?


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## SgtPepper (Nov 22, 2016)

it's 6pm, get inside my little hens. chop chop!


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

doubt anyone strangles a woman to death because they think it's "normal"


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Six said:


> _6:42 -__ There are more and more rapes where women have been strangled and had very severe injuries and when they go to the police, the police say *"Well you could have consented to this because of wider discourses that strangulation is normal during sex."*_
> 
> BOOM
> 
> ...


You still on about this?

The second chapter in the book "Women Who Run with Wolves" makes sense of this seemingly inappropriate juxtaposition in terms of animus and individuation (if you subscribe to such notions).

To have such a fantasy is self-destructive, but it may not be so literal of a desire and it is unfortunate to be confused as such (by the woman, or by society at large). "Feminism" is a potential antidote to the psychic frustrations that such a fantasy portends.

I'm curious why this bothers you so much. I mean... as a woman, I know why it bothers me... but for a dude the apparent mixed messages must be quite upsetting, too.


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

Squirt said:


> You still on about this?


hey do you think anyone here moves on with their life


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## Deuce (Feb 16, 2021)

Six said:


> The "rules" by which you purport to make ethical sense of things and by expression of such apply pressure upon me to act a particular way or another - makes sense?


It completely does but I don't understand how feminism and sexual kinks depend of the same set of rules since they are different phenomena. Like having an ideology of equality between sexes as far as education, rights and all on one hand and 2 consensual adults using sex as an outlet for their perception of a power imbalance or whichever problem they need a sexual exutory for on the other is not so contradictory. At least I can only hope that social ideals can tolerate at least this level of human complicatedness if not they're gonna exclude entire parts of the population.
plus why would the fact that the police force conflate rape (a non-consensual act by excellence) and bdsm (again consensual) point towards making people restrict the nature of their sexual activity ?
it points more towards educating the police force to not conflate things so weirdly imho. At least not if it goes in the way of doing their jobs, which in this case is paving the way for the rapist to be prosecuted.


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## Queen of Cups (Feb 26, 2010)

Mama don't need no curfew


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## lilysocks (Nov 7, 2012)

/meh. AFAIK, more harm gets done to women while they are in their own homes with the people who live there too ... so.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

I think the strangling thing is a fair point--and it is alarming if police are dismissing injuries like that as possibly consensual because most rapes never get investigated anyway.

The rape fantasy thing though--I don't see why two people couldn't discuss it and choose to do it if they're both into it together--though of course if it was in public it'd be dangerous and someone would hopefully stop it from happening because there'd be no way to know if it was consensual or not from the perspective of a bystander.

The whole choking thing makes me happy to be celibate. Another good reason to avoid dating (well not really--but I hope never to encounter that type of expectation). I guess you could ask someone up front what they think about choking to filter it out...if they were answering truthfully. Probably bring up something in the news and just kind of casually get a read on their reaction--though I doubt most people are going to open up about their sexual fetishes on the first date--actually, many men might idk.


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## attic (May 20, 2012)

I don't get the point with this? what is the argument exactly, without irony. Could you clarify your point @Six

A fantasy about rape and real rape is extremely different. In a fantasy you have total control, in a real rape you have no control. In a fantasy you don't feel pain, in a real rape you do. In a fantasy there is actually only you, in a real rape there is someone else violating what is yours.

The idea about curfew for men is rhetoric, not realistic, but a perspective-turning point, and makes sense in that way. With the context that women are often told not to walk alone in the evening and night (like a partial curfew), which is blaming and limiting the "victim-group", and a short term pragmatic response, but not a good solution to a problem.

If the police turned away a *raped, strangled and severely injured *person, because they _might _have consented. There is something wrong with how the police work, perhaps also laws. If someone is abused on the street (beaten up), even if there was tape where they said "sure, beat me up, I consent, beat me to a bloody pulp!" I doubt it would be legal? Or in an abusive relationship, if the abused says "I am sorry, it was my fault, punish me, I deserve it..." and is beaten up, would that make it legal? (not to talk about ethical...)
I don't know almost anything about BDSM, but I doubt a lot of people want to be severely injured...


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## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

> _6:42 -__ There are more and more rapes where women have been strangled and had very severe injuries and when they go to the police, the police say *"Well you could have consented to this because of wider discourses that strangulation is normal during sex."*_
> 
> BOOM
> 
> If you are into BDSM or getting choked during sex you are contributing to a problem:


If police actually view it like that then that's more a problem with them, not BDSM and those who partake in it innocently.

This is the same kind of bad argument as "if you play violent video games then you're contributing to the gun violence problem!"

If I like being choked a bit during sex, I don't see how I have any blame in the actions of a rapist or the way the broken justice system operates.




> So no, you cannot be a "feminist" and have a "rape fantasy"


Pretty sure you can. A lot of people would not be allowed to be feminists if there was a rule about that.


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

WickerDeer said:


> -though I doubt most people are going to open up about their sexual fetishes on the first date--actually, many men might idk.


considering how many people meet through websites now.... most do especially if they're just looking to hook up. 









Why Do Women Have Rape Fantasies?


Rape fantasies reflect women’s erotic comfort—wherever it may lead.




www.psychologytoday.com













Top 5 Female Sex Fantasies ... And What They Mean


Top 5 Female Sex Fantasies ... And What They Mean




www.huffpost.com













Women's Sexual Fantasies – The Latest Scientific Research


A team of psychologists, led by a woman, uncovers facts on sex fantasy.




www.psychologytoday.com










SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals


Subscription and open access journals from SAGE Publishing, the world's leading independent academic publisher.




journals.sagepub.com













Beginner's Guide to Kinky Sex: What Is It, Health Benefits, Rules


One in five friends have tried kinky sex. Plus, science shows there may be benefits to experimenting in the bedroom — are you ready?




www.healthline.com







https://us.sagepub.com/sites/default/files/upm-binaries/60338_Chapter_3.pdf











The truth about BDSM


BDSM first gained mainstream momentum in the 1940s




www.independent.co.uk









__





Women's Top 10 Sexual Fantasies | HealthyPlace


List of the top 10 sexual fantasies that women have, but many are too ashamed to talk about.




www.healthyplace.com













If You've Never Filmed A Sex Tape, Tonight Is The Night


Plus 29 other sex fantasies to try ASAP.




www.womenshealthmag.com













Here's What Women Fantasize About The Most


Which sexual fantasies are the most popular — and the least?




www.businessinsider.com













When it comes to what women really want, it's not always obvious


Here are just a handful of the myriad sexual fantasies women have that they don't dare tell anyone.




www.sheknows.com







https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/25-sex-fantasies-women-totally-143200448.html


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Rift said:


> considering how many people meet through websites now.... most do especially if they're just looking to hook up.


That makes sense--yeah when I went on a date with a guy I met ona dating app (okcupid), he showed me his fetlife account which was a little awkward b/c he accidentally showed me a pic of his dick while we were in a fancy restaurant.

I mean...I appreciated it (not the dic pic part but the bringing up the fetish community) because it's honest and clear communication, but it also helped me realize right away that we probably wouldn't be sexually or romantically compatible.

I've thought more about asking questions about values and goals--like whether the person wants to have children etc. but not about asking about their sexuality--so that seems like a good thing if the topic isn't so taboo. I guess it's better not to assume what people are into.


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## Six (Oct 14, 2019)

Squirt said:


> You still on about this?


I'm still on about this.

All I'm asking for is an explanation which resolves it satisfactorily - I know there's an epiphany waiting in there somewhere I just have to find it and I'm all but certain it will explain a lot.



Squirt said:


> The second chapter in the book "Women Who Run with Wolves" makes sense of this seemingly inappropriate juxtaposition in terms of animus and individuation (if you subscribe to such notions).


Alright I will read this tonight with a shandy under my new fancy art deco wall sconces.



Squirt said:


> To have such a fantasy is self-destructive, but it may not be so literal of a desire and it is unfortunate to be confused as such (by the woman, or by society at large). "Feminism" is a potential antidote to the psychic frustrations that such a fantasy portends.


Alright, well look just figure it out already, we're tabling curfews for all men after 6pm, is it possible you maybe haven't explored your insides a bit whilst you're manically trying to nerf and control all mankind?



Squirt said:


> I'm curious why this bothers you so much. I mean... as a woman, I know why it bothers me... but for a dude the apparent mixed messages must be quite upsetting, too.







BECAUSE. IT'S. WEIRD.

You're asking me to enter the headspace: *Of a rapist.*

You know how awful an imposition that is?
If a majority of women find the idea entertaining - what, I've got to snip...










...down in the basement of my psyche for some sort of "The Beast" Style James McAvoy Split persona where I'm totally down with acting as if I'm a rapist?

Also, Daniel-Day-Lewis'ing this - what's my motivation?

1.










Am I a UPS style _bing bong _[You answer the door.] POW! Kick the door in: "SPECIAL DELIVERY, BITCH!" Pull a 12 inch rubber dildo out of a parcel - "Oh my god...!!" Scramble off the floor "SHUT THE F--K up..." dragging you off into a bedroom by your hair rapist?

2.

Am I a NALARGHNARLGHNARLGHNARLGHNLNARGHNALARGHARLGHNARLGH!! Make some poor Brazillian cow uncomfortable have her bite a carrot style roided Arnie style...






...banging my f-ing maid whilst she's doing the dishes because he can't control himself because he's ejaculating whilst he's pushing weight on a benchpress sort of rapist...?

3. Or is it a more austere "You're My Property - Master And Commander"






being unnecessarily beastly and cruel to my employees sort of rapist?

All of it's fucking dark and horrific why do I have to do it? Is this really going to be necessary in order to keep a vast majority of women entertained for the course of a 20 year sexual relationship?

I had 3 girlfriends in a row from 16-23 and at some point between the end of the last and when I was 25 when I was focusing on my career suddenly things changed and I've just been left wondering if I've just been missing this the whole time and if so what it's about?

Yet I'm the odd one for finding this strange... ?


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## SgtPepper (Nov 22, 2016)

At one of my highschools we had this teacher who would throw pizza parties, but only for girls, The guys had to sit in the hallway, because they were "problematic", until it was over.

After it was done, she invited us to come back into the classroom and pickup the trash though.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

SgtPepper said:


> At one of my highschools we had this teacher who would throw pizza parties, but only for girls, The guys had to sit in the hallway, because they were "problematic", until it was over.
> 
> After it was done, she invited us to come back into the classroom and pickup the trash though.


Wow--that is so mean. What a terrible teacher.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

My question is how is having rape fantasy role plays when having sex completely different from wanting to be a part of an actual rape? That's fucked up. What next? Should it be "normal" to also role play and pretend your partner is 8 years old? Anything goes, right? Nothing is too fucked up. Bullshit.


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## Six (Oct 14, 2019)

Hexigoon said:


> If police actually view it like that then that's more a problem with them, not BDSM and those who partake in it innocently.


Lest we forget, in the UK we've got a police force that's scared to tackle rape gangs who pour boiling water onto women children and nail their tongues to tables because it might be considered "Islamophobic". I mean that's f-ing beautiful - and I'd be considered the one who has a problematic viewpoint on that because of course in the views of modern wokeism rape victims should shut up for the sake of diversity!

With an ethical framework so profoundly fucked how are they supposed to tell who's been raped and who hasn't when it's alright if you're having hot candle wax dripped over you if it's "by consent"?



Hexigoon said:


> This is the same kind of bad argument as "if you play violent video games then you're contributing to the gun violence problem!"


Would you play a game where you raped someone @Hexigoon?

I'll tell you the answer: The answer is no because there's no protagonist who's ever out on their "heroic quest" who has to stick a few rapes into their learning curve.

Violence on the other hand has legitimate uses. Which are at times morally justified.

Otherwise why are we even allowing our governments and police to have weapons either?

As if governments or police have a fantastic track record for being morally justified in the first place compared to the supposed populaces they're both ostensibly appointed by and drawn from.



Hexigoon said:


> If I like being choked a bit during sex, I don't see how I have any blame in the actions of a rapist or the way the broken justice system operates.


It's making violence a normalised aspect of sex. Do you like being slapped around a bit too? How normal does aggression have to become and how much - how difficult does it make it telling what has or hasn't been consented to if it's "normal" to have violent intercourse "consensually"?

And for me personally I don't think these are uncomfortable questions I think they have obvious answers.



Hexigoon said:


> Pretty sure you can. A lot of people would not be allowed to be feminists if there was a rule about that.


I know there are exceptions.

I know there are juxtapositions.

I know there are paradoxes.

But not simulating rape - you cannot simultaneously lambast men for being denizens of rape culture and enjoy it if you're "consensually forced to have sex" - stop imposing this kind of abuse on the ethical fabric of society it's clearly a product of your own inability to control your impulses.

Edit: Also I don't mean "you" I mean the royal / plural "you".


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

Squirt said:


> I hope Six knows this, but I made that comment out of surprise, not as an insult. I respect his perspective very much, even if I sometimes disagree.


I wasnt insulting anyone either - just an observatorion


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Veggie said:


> The problem here isn't "women" - it's men who want to box their behavior towards women into a formula or something. Who see them as "women" and not as individuals.


Hey, I think its just as fucked up for the men to participate in these rape fantasies as well. Say, you wouldn't be trying to put a "sexism" spin on something I said when there wasn't any?


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## Dreamcatcherplaceboeffect (Dec 24, 2020)

I went back and forth on whether or not to chime in on this thread, but I’m gonna do it.

Honestly, I can see both sides. Why would someone enjoy a rape fantasy or BDSM? It doesn’t _seem_ healthy or _normal_.

I’ll give you my personal take on it (although obviously I don’t speak for all BDSM-ers or those with rape fantasies). 

For background context, I grew up in a relatively normal household. No violence. (I was spanked though for discipline.) I’ve never been into violent TV shows, movies, books, etc. I don’t even particularly enjoy hardcore erotica novels so I don’t exactly know where my “kinks” come from. 

I have a _slight_ preference for the things some of the men on this forum find _horrific_ or distasteful. It doesn’t mean I _need_ them in the bedroom, but they definitely don’t turn me off. 

So, here is some insight into _why_ some people might enjoy these things (of course, like I’ve mentioned, I definitely don’t speak on behalf of all women.)

With rape fantasies, I think it’s a power play. Now, I’m NOT saying women want to be actually raped. But I do think that some women enjoy being dominated. There is a thrill—a small adrenaline rush—to “make pretending” you are so desirable a man cannot resist you, and also a biological craving (for _some_ women to feel submissive). On a very biological level, women generally like a man who is in control in his life, and sometimes this transitions into the bedroom. The idea of having someone else be assertive and in control can be a turn on (in and out of the bedroom). Of course, women do not EVER want someone to take control that they don’t _want_ to get physically intimate with. That is the difference between rape and fantasy, in my opinion.

As for choking and/or physical pain: I think it goes back to the thrill of it. Concerning physical pain specifically, sometimes a little _light_ pain that is pre-decided upon can enhance pleasure by making the pleasure more stark, comparatively. (Time for one of my terrible analogies!) Think of it as well done graffiti art in a run down, colorless area of town. The surroundings make the art that much more obvious; that much more beautiful; that much more _intense_. Sometimes pain can do that for people during sex, and I guess some people have higher thresholds than others. (Although I’m sure there are many people who are masochistic for psychological reasons.)

I’m reluctant to call anyone’s sexual desires “wrong” if they have a willing partner and want to act on them. Some do seem extreme, and there are many I do not personally relate to. 

Hopefully, this gives you an insight as to _why_ some people enjoy rape fantasies, BDSM, and choking. This was a _bit more_ than I was comfortable sharing publicly, but I wanted to try to provide _real_ insight into why these things may appeal to a woman.


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## Six (Oct 14, 2019)

@Squirt actually responded to you with something very much on point and you didn't answer it - which again I think is very telling however let me manhandle this a bit:



Veggie said:


> Women aren't just sexual objects.


No but they are sometimes, right? (Dazzle me with your acumen @Veggie we can't all be as blessed with social intelligence as you.)

"...there's something hot in having someone you're into *just kinda use you* for their own gratification..."

_Use. I just feel so used_.

An object can only be given agency in service to and as extension and tool of a thing which does have agency.

And that's the abiding theme throughout your answer:

*Agency - Absence, Thereof.*



Veggie said:


> What a women finds exciting in a sexual encounter within a sexual relationship isn't indicative of how she wants to be treated on the streets by a stranger. I don't understand why this is a difficult concept.


You don't understand because you're setting it up for yourself in a way which isn't encapsulating the thrust of my argument:

I'm not saying:

_"Oh women want to blow me in the privacy of our bedroom why don't they want to blow me in public when I flash them in the street?" _

I'm saying that:

Sexual violence whether you've got the impulse to mete it out or be a willing recipient of it is a problem wholly within and exclusively in the privacy of your own home.

You're conflating your idiocy with mine.



Veggie said:


> It isn't a woman's responsibility, within an _intimate_ encounter, to be concerned about the general ethics of how men treat women in a broader sense.












YES IT IS!

Do you want what happens in your bedroom to be governed by the law?

Do you want if something goes wrong for it to be accountable to the courts - you know, out there in wider society?

Unless you want to turn a bedroom into this weird, anything-goes, sanctum internis in international waters where you can be given a few bruises and a couple of black eyes but "It's okay officer! She was in my bedroom!"

Then you are responsible.

Again it's this trait here which belies you - *the absence of agency: *You seem to think saying "it's not a woman's responsibility" is some sort of applause break?

Since when has a lack of responsibility ever been a virtue except in the mindset of someone selfish and/or psychotic?

"Man" / "Woman" / "Individual" - if you're doing this it has implications you are responsible for - the fact you think not taking responsibility for it is a virtue just shows how suspect your judgement is!



Veggie said:


> It's an encounter between two (or a few, if you're into that) people. Really, it's not even her responsibility to think about other women in how she likes to be treated more publicly. It's on others to read whether or not she seems to be into it. And yea, there can be some confusion in that, true, but general social awareness can help in navigating the waters.


It's up to "others"? So the courts, the police, everybody else has to telepathically divine what you were feeling and thinking at the time with no presence, no context, no witnesses, no cues - just because if they aren't they're all being:

"Social idiots"?

Do you have any idea how self-absorbed that sounds?

What, everyone's got to figure out, revolve around and reflect your desires as and when they may be and often contradictory as they are or else they're demonstrating a lack of social intelligence as compared to you on what - COINCIDENTALLY - also happens to be exclusively the contents of your own head? Again the self-absorption is off the f-ing charts.

Do you realise the outside world for the vast part doesn't give one solitary shit what's going on in your head? That ethics have to be codified if it's going to be possible for society to operate in such a fashion that people with different interpretations are at least able to agree on the explicit wording of the moral laws they sit and are judged before?

Does that compute?



Veggie said:


> If you put your hands on _anyone_ you don't know that well, as an example - without explicit consent or within an encounter (*) that might indicate an invitation - you're entering into risky territory.


I'm talking about the visceral simulation of violent sex not people patting you on the back @Veggie so thank you for that fatuous demonstration of what I'm not talking about!



Veggie said:


> The problem here isn't "women" - it's men who want to box their behavior towards women into a formula or something.


_formula or something*_

*Law - and it's not just men who write it is it?



Veggie said:


> Who see them as "women" and not as individuals.


@Hexigoon's into getting choked - I'm just as perturbed by a guy wanting to have his face slapped and by the woman who's into doing it as if it's the other way around - you're the one putting the self-obsessed exclusively female perspective into this issue.

"Women" / "Individuals" - Again this is just the sort of rubbish semantic aphorisms - you're a woman who is also an individual - it's an aspect of you as an individual. I'm not reducing the primacy of your individuality to "woman" first and "individual" second as if that even makes sense am I?

It's a pointless and stupid remark.



Veggie said:


> (*)Who see what could be (or even are) invitations as an opportunity to stop reading the individual person, and stop subscribing to basic sociality. Who acknowledge risk, but don't want to accept the consequences of it. Who want to put the burden of risk on women. "Hey, take care of it for me, make this neat and pretty for me, so that I don't have to deal with it." They're usually the types who think that servitude is a woman's lot generally, ime.


Yeah would you mind if I skipped hitting you to turn you on I'm kind of a pussy like that - I don't fancy having you walking around with my handprint on your face or thumb prints on your throat and what's more I'm pretty much not into hitting anybody - sorry I'm weird like that.

Sorry for being the sort of irresponsible, controlling misogynist who doesn't accept the consequences of that risk and thinking it's fucked up you asked for it - and hey would you mind making the bed neat and pretty for me so I don't have to deal with it because you know that and me finding your rape fantasy weird are naturally part of my assumption you're my servant.

It's only an abject lack of accountability (and the utter self-absorption to consider it a virtue) which would make you occupy a position as insane as the one you've just had a crack at. /\



Veggie said:


> It's also totally okay to be into something at first, and then decide that it's gone too far.


Right so after he's choked or hit you - you can ex post facto say: "You know what? I wasn't actually into that - I really don't know how I feel, maybe he raped me."

And here's me being a terrible imposition on you for wanting you to make it neat and tidy by perhaps seeing it's probably not a good thing for someone to be choking you.



Veggie said:


> Despite misogynistic attitudes that seem to decide that women can't give clear signals or speak up for themselves, I think that the signals are more often given than not.


Yeah it must be our misogyny which makes women enjoy having sex where they pretend they're being raped.

_What happened last night why didn't we have sex?_
*I thought you didn't want to.*
_Yes I did I was really into it._
*Then why were you pushing my hand away?*
_I'm kind of weird I enjoy when a guy just gets frustrated and holds me down and fucks me._
*Well why didn't you tell me that I'd have happily done that for you.*
_No! It has to feel REAL and DANGEROUS._
*WHAT ARE YOU FUCKING NUTS?! I'M JUST GOING TO RAPE YOU ON THE, OFF CHANCE YOU'RE INTO THAT SHIT?!*



Veggie said:


> It's not a woman's job to make life easier for socially inept idiots.


No it's not healthy people's jobs to navigate your mental illnesses whilst treating them as if they're normal.


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## Six (Oct 14, 2019)

Dreamcatcherplaceboeffect said:


> I went back and forth on whether or not to chime in on this thread, but I’m gonna do it.
> 
> Honestly, I can see both sides. Why would someone enjoy a rape fantasy or BDSM? It doesn’t _seem_ healthy or _normal_.
> 
> ...


I know all this @Dreamcatcherplaceboeffect I just enjoy phrasing this contradiction in stark dramatics so I'm able to watch people sputter and add patterns to my comprehension of things which they don't understand about themselves - it's fun to walk around in kingdoms of the blind sometimes - very therapeutic.


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## Six (Oct 14, 2019)

Squirt said:


> I hope Six knows this, but I made that comment out of surprise, not as an insult. I respect his perspective very much, even if I sometimes disagree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd never considered the cutting / self-harm angle before that's fascinating.

Because my horror at people self-harming is the same as BDSM or violent sex - IF the person who was self-harming was asking me to do the cutting.

Very insightful again.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

So heres how this will go IF people agree to this absurd law.

1. All law abiding men stays inside after 6pm
2. All kidnappers/rapists/assaulters who clearly give 0 fucks about the law runs rampant and rapes 10x more women since there aren't any "good men" to stop them now
3. Some of the male criminals decide to do it before 6pm
4. Feminists double down on the idea and bann all men from leaving their homes
5. Women complain that they're paying taxes while men sit at home and become house husbands
6. Government goes bankrupt in a matter of weeks and prints more money
7. Eventually 1 loaf of bread costs $100000000000 USD from the inflation
8. Feminists have now successfully fked up the country


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

I'd be irate if I thought this law had a chance to catch on. I wouldn't care to live any longer if I could no longer leave my house after 6 PM. At least this woman would be happy though.


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## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

Six said:


> @Hexigoon's into getting choked - I'm just as perturbed by a guy wanting to have his face slapped and by the woman who's into doing it as if it's the other way around - you're the one putting the self-obsessed exclusively female perspective into this issue.


Oh, I was just speaking more hypothetically for the sake of the argument. Choking isn't really something I particularly long for. But then, if they wanted to grab my neck a bit as if to pretend to choke me and they weren't like suffocating me then I wouldn't be bothered by it. I would just perceive it as them being into it. I will admit I do like some controlled aggressiveness in either direction during sex, at least sometimes.

Still, I don't see any good reasoning for being perturbed to what I willingly consent to have done to me - as long as I won't end up in hospital or dead, it's kinda my own business. My original point was that even if I did like being choked, it has no bearing at all on the actions of a rapist / rape gang or the way the law deals with rape accusations.
If the cops seriously do make arguments like "Strangulation during sex is something more normal these days so that's enough evidence that you weren't actually raped." they probably shouldn't have their job, they're being negligent. It makes zero sense to argue that.


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

Squirt said:


> I want to know where does that girls-and-guns fantasy comes from. In almost any story with that trope, the girl first fights off some sexual predator, or does so at some point in her story arc - so the rape fantasy is still inherent in it - the bloodlust. Is it better because she overcomes the rapist, beats him to a pulp, maybe gets revenge?











Extremities (1986)


After managing to escape a would-be rape, the sadistic attacker, armed with her wallet, comes to find her. But he doesn’t count on her being ready.




tubitv.com


















Do We Still Have a Place for Rape Revenge Fantasies?


Carey Mulligan’s ‘Promising Young Woman’ debuts in a culture that’s taking a colder attitude toward survivors’ rage




gen.medium.com













Revenge Fantasies After Experiencing Traumatic Events: Sex Differences


Experiences of humiliation, unjust hurt caused by another or anger naturally, elicit the desire to seek revenge and fantasies of revenge. The current study examined the associations between a history of traumatic events and feelings of injustice and levels of desire for revenge-seeking and...




www.frontiersin.org










SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals


Subscription and open access journals from SAGE Publishing, the world's leading independent academic publisher.




journals.sagepub.com













The Revenge Myth


Do we really need to go through with it?




www.psychologytoday.com


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)




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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

I have to say--I've never really seen a guy get so worked up and outraged about how he _doesn't_ want to rape or harm women. It's oddly satisfying and maybe even a little therapeutic.

I mean, it beats the old Eska debates where Eska would be like "maybe the woman didn't say 'no' loud enough and the man didn't hear her." Reading it isn't nearly as triggering (at least to me, personally) as other online rape debates usually are.

Though I still disagree that women who have rape fantasies are part of the problem. Rapists don't GAF what kind of fantasies women have imo.


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## Cephalonimbus (Dec 6, 2010)

I think these topics are only tangentially related.

Let's start with the obvious: the idea of a curfew for men to make the world a safer place for women is absolutely bananas, and Jenny Jones should have been laughed out of parliament for wasting everybody's time with such an embarrasingly dumb idea (but I guess that doesn’t happen to a baroness in the “House of Lords”... lmao Britain please don’t ever change).

Now Jones’s proposal is in itself a symptom of a larger problem that plagues many Western countries: an obsession with safety, which some people take so far that they would prefer to construct a totalitarian state in which every facet of our lives is controlled just so they can have the illusion of being """"safe"""", rather than to accept the fact that there are bad people in the world and while we can and should take some preventative measures, we can never prevent bad stuff from happening entirely... but I have never, ever heard someone take it as far as Jones did.

But how exactly does this tie in to rape fantasies? As far as I can tell, rape fantasies are really just an exacerbated version of what in itself is quite normal: the desire to be dominated, to be lusted over, to lose control and to have a “dangerous” encounter.

The strongest connection I can think of with the Jones incident, is that as society becomes ever more safe and regulated, and men are increasingly raised to be mindful of women’s boundaries, perhaps it is to be expected that we see an increase in women’s (subconscious) desire to make sex dangerous again.


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## lilysocks (Nov 7, 2012)

I didn't read the op or much of the thread. [redact as I misunderread the part commented on]

However bystanders telling each other what makes some women fantasize about it is irritating. Imo mental play is a common way for people of any gender to come to terms with an idea or a reality that is intrinsically horrifying to them. And rape really is, or is really perceived as, a pervasive reality of women's existence.

People own their own minds. They don't owe specific performance of their thoughts to anyone else.


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

Cephalonimbus said:


> The strongest connection I can think of with the Jones incident, is that as society becomes ever more safe and regulated, and men are increasingly raised to be mindful of women’s boundaries, perhaps it is to be expected that we see an increase in women’s (subconscious) desire to make sex dangerous again.


there's several different groups at play...

the sociopolitical front is largely a power grab in which we see this fantasy of empowerment that ties more into the revenge fantasy or that equality is met out by imposing the same standard of perceived offense on the demographic of the offender. . . and grant a personal immunity based on the progressive stack; i.e. identity, sexuality, gender, sex, ethnicity, culture, religion, political party, class, and so on... 

though I'd be more inclined to say it's, perhaps, influenced more out of the cut-throat business of non profits and the costs of professional activism, i.e. the competition for grants and other funding than government directly...though they certainly overlap and (pork) spending leads to some uncomfortable concerns and questions, particularly where law is concerned. what happens to activists and organizations when their causes are won? in the end, it is a business and there is an incentive to keep it going as long as one is able.

it's also the longstanding influence of neoconservatism that has always been present among social justice politics... of various purity movements that often exhibit traits of what we now call horseshoe theory in often resembling more visibly recognized hate movements and organizations.

but rationally, we do see that while many women also have their dream guy of being a politically correct boy toy... yes, there are many that have difficulty reconciling it with what they are sexually attracted to and desire with sex. men have similar issues as well. . . to which most associate with the madonna/whore complex but the only equivalent is one associated with attraction to proverbial bad boy via the focus of media directed to teen girls and lonely women. . . the practical desire for stability and safety but also finding it dull compared to the fantasy, which often in real life is someone they have conflict with. so, like the madonna/whore, the lingering effects that it's an either, or option with limited feasible options for both.






---

still the bigger picture of how males and females are perceived in society may explain the difficulties in achieving the idealized 'one' that meets all their physical, emotional and sexual needs.. particularly by way of men that are more likely to face more severe consequences for engaging in said fantasies, even if it is consenual.


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## lilysocks (Nov 7, 2012)

Six said:


> how are they supposed to tell who's been raped and who hasn't when it's alright if you're having hot candle wax dripped over you if it's "by consent"?


What a strange question. They ask the person it happened to. Duh?


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## Six (Oct 14, 2019)

lilysocks said:


> I didn't read the op or much of the thread. I do see a later post from the thread owner that suggested [to me] that 'a woman who fantasizes about rape' is just one more thing that [I presume he] thinks he's entitled to and now feels he's been ripped off over, due to the fact circumstances or timing somehow cheated him out of it.
> 
> However bystanders telling each other what makes some women fantasize about it is irritating. Imo mental play is a common way for people of any gender to come to terms with an idea or a reality that is intrinsically horrifying to them. And rape really is, or is really perceived as, a pervasive reality of women's existence.
> 
> People own their own minds. They don't owe specific performance of their thoughts to anyone else.


You didn't read the thread but you felt compelled to smear me as the exact opposite of what I've been advocating against anyway? 

What's that, your inner drama queen - need to say something even if it's a commentary which has absolutely no value because you have not read what you're passing comment on?


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## Six (Oct 14, 2019)

lilysocks said:


> What a strange question. They ask the person it happened to. Duh?


And if the person who does it say they did consent?

If it's one person's one word against another? 

You might think that evidence of coercion like restraint marks and such would be evidence of a rape - but if people are doing that for fun and profit - kind of muddies the water a bit doesn't it?


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## Six (Oct 14, 2019)

Rift said:


> there's several different groups at play...
> 
> the sociopolitical front is largely a power grab in which we see this fantasy of empowerment that ties more into the revenge fantasy or that equality is met out by imposing the same standard of perceived offense on the demographic of the offender. . . and grant a personal immunity based on the progressive stack; i.e. identity, sexuality, gender, sex, ethnicity, culture, religion, political party, class, and so on...
> 
> ...


Good answer.


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

lilysocks said:


> Imo mental play is a common way for people of any gender to come to terms with an idea or a reality that is intrinsically horrifying to them.


my favorite is the one where I find my way out of "the most dangerous game" scenario unharmed.


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

it also comes to mind that the entire argument for women in this outcry is benevolent sexism. 









The Problem When Sexism Just Sounds So Darn Friendly...







blogs.scientificamerican.com










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even while the arguments of sexism are predominately viewed through a female only lens in which only women are able to experience.. we can stand to reason that the entirity of the arguments rest on retaining this privileged victim status that exemplifies the gender war.... to which generalizations place men as inherently violent and sexually aggressive and that women are inherently fragile, virginal and in need of greater protection... even more so in western nations where they maintain a higher level of privilege (to near absence of similar outrage for wider world events but that crosses into other fallacies associated with the stack and benevolent racism... though even without expressively being racist (inclusive of cultural, ethnic, etc) we still see this mantra of the male super predator in these displays)


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## attic (May 20, 2012)

Cephalonimbus said:


> I think these topics are only tangentially related.
> 
> Let's start with the obvious: the idea of a curfew for men to make the world a safer place for women is absolutely bananas, and Jenny Jones should have been laughed out of parliament for wasting everybody's time with such an embarrasingly dumb idea (but I guess that doesn’t happen to a baroness in the “House of Lords”... lmao Britain please don’t ever change).
> 
> ...


I don't really know what her intention was, but the merit I see in that idea, is just your reaction. That to ask half the population not to be out in the evening is an embarrasingly dumb idea, that we shouldn't have to control every facet of our lives to be safe. Still, people ask that of women every so often, but we are used to hear that, so people don't react so strongly, as here, where it is asked of men, as that is a new thought (and a bit more extreme, as it is a law). It highlight how stupid it is to blame women for being attacked because they were out at night. You shouldn't curfew either women or men from being out after dark, but if it is to be done, as a thought experiment, would it not make more sense that the curfew is for the group the perpetrators belong to, rather than the group most of the victims belong to?


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## Six (Oct 14, 2019)

attic said:


> I don't really know what her intention was, but the merit I see in that idea, is just your reaction. That to ask half the population not to be out in the evening is an embarrasingly dumb idea, that we shouldn't have to control every facet of our lives to be safe. Still, people ask that of women every so often, but we are used to hear that, so people don't react so strongly, as here, where it is asked of men, as that is a new thought (and a bit more extreme, as it is a law). It highlight how stupid it is to blame women for being attacked because they were out at night. You shouldn't curfew either women or men from being out after dark, but if it is to be done, as a thought experiment, would it not make more sense that the curfew is for the group the perpetrators belong to, rather than the group most of the victims belong to?


That was obviously what she was saying and I hope no-one thought I was genuinely bothered by the suggestion - I get what she was saying - I just felt it was a slightly clickbait title which I'd use to draw people into the specific comment someone made whilst discussing that which I wanted to whack about a bit.


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## Cephalonimbus (Dec 6, 2010)

attic said:


> I don't really know what her intention was, but the merit I see in that idea, is just your reaction. That to ask half the population not to be out in the evening is an embarrasingly dumb idea, that we shouldn't have to control every facet of our lives to be safe. Still, people ask that of women every so often, but we are used to hear that, so people don't react so strongly, as here, where it is asked of men, as that is a new thought (and a bit more extreme, as it is a law). It highlight how stupid it is to blame women for being attacked because they were out at night. You shouldn't curfew either women or men from being out after dark, but if it is to be done, as a thought experiment, would it not make more sense that the curfew is for the group the perpetrators belong to, rather than the group most of the victims belong to?


I see where you’re getting at, but honestly this is a real stretch.

Now when we’re talking about straight up victim blaming, I agree that does really need to stop... but are we really responding to victims of sexual assault by saying things like “well you shouldn’t have gone outside”? Who still does that? Granted, if there’s room for improvement here we should absolutely make our best effort, as victims deserve to be taken seriously, and IMO every police station should probably have some personell trained in dealing with traumatic situations... but I’m really sceptical towards the notion that victim blaming is the rule rather than the exception, and in my estimation, people are conflating victim blaming with insisting that women be mindful of their decisions. Admittedly this can be a fine line, but I think to dismiss it all as victim blaming is a mistake.

That some people do bad things is inevitable. IMO, therefore it is not unreasonable to alert women to the fact that they are more likely to fall prey to sexual predators and it’s in their best interest to avoid putting themselves in dangerous situations. To compare this to a curfew for men really doesn’t make sense; that Jones’ proposal would be a statement that says “we shouldn’t have to control every facet of our lives”... sorry but the fact remains that women have a lot more control over their own decisions, than society at large has control over to what extent rapist exist. It’s not about forbidding women to live their lives as they choose, but to create awareness so they can make sensible decisions and consider the risks they take. This is really not even in the same ballpark as a curfew: the “expectation” that women don’t go outside (to the degree that it exists) is not an abitrary rule imposed by government rule, but a sensible reaction to an unfortunate reality.

I agree with feminists that we should teach our sons to respect eachother’s boundaries, but the idea of “don't teach girls to do X, teach boys not to do Y” is absurd wishful thinking, because there will always people who ignore the rules. Moreover, this line of thinking glosses over the fact that we’ve been teaching boys not to rape for ages, while implying that we haven’t, and still don’t. Where does this idea come from? Honestly, I’ve never met anyone who wasn’t aware of sexual assault being a deplorable and highly immoral act. We all know this.

I would love to live in a society where nobody steals stuff from my car * but they do, in spite of the fact that we very clearly teach children not to steal... so I lock the door and don’t keep expensive stuff visibly on the dashboard; I don’t demand society stops theft alltogether and treat the fact that I have to protect my stuff as a grave injustice. Now it certainly is unfair that women are faced with this issue to such an extent—there’s no denying that—but what else can we do? Sexual violence, at least on the streets, affects women the most, that’s sad but true. But consider this: I, as a man who does not commit sexual assault, have no control whatsoever over what either the perpetrator or the victim does... but a woman, being a potential victim, has at least some degree of control over any potential situations that may unfold by being careful. Where do I even factor into the whole situation other than feeling shitty that this is how the world seems to work? Again, this is totally unfair, but I don’t see any feasible alternative and therefore this comparison about a curfew is just nonsense.

* please note that I am aware that being victim of sexual assault is much more traumatizing than having your laptop stolen from your car and I’m really not comparing the two in terms of emotional impact, nor does this comparison pertain to how we should deal with police reports for example. It’s merely an illustration of the underlying principle of being mindful of the fact that crime exists and exerting the only control we have: our own behaviour. This is not the same as victim blaming.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Cephalonimbus said:


> I see where you’re getting at, but honestly this is a real stretch.
> 
> Now when we’re talking about straight up victim blaming, I agree that does really need to stop... but are we really responding to victims of sexual assault by saying things like “well you shouldn’t have gone outside”? Who still does that? Granted, if there’s room for improvement here we should absolutely make our best effort, as victims deserve to be taken seriously, and IMO every police station should probably have some personell trained in dealing with traumatic situations... but I’m really sceptical towards the notion that victim blaming is the rule rather than the exception, and in my estimation, people are conflating victim blaming with insisting that women be mindful of their decisions. Admittedly this can be a fine line, but I think to dismiss it all as victim blaming is a mistake.
> 
> ...


Ugh.

Look--a woman's body isn't a car or a laptop. You can't just leave your body parked somewhere in a garage all the time or plugged into the wall at home. It is problematic because sexual assault can happen with people you know and are on a date with, it can happen with people you don't know who you just randomly run into because you're in the wrong place at the wrong time. It can happen with people you kind of know (a friend of a friend) when they are left alone with you, even when they were fine before. Because it is something that the predator controls--their behavior. A woman does not control the behavior of a predator.


* *






The only real way to prevent sexual assault is to be like a kungfu warrior and not all women are ninjas. I'm not. I try to carry pepper spray on me, and it's uncomfortable the amount of times I've had to use it or threaten to use it.

I have been celibrate since 2011--I don't go on dates almost ever. So I'm being pretty safe right? At what point is it too much? I went for a walk in the woods a few years ago to go looking for mushrooms and a guy pulled his dick out on the trail that I had to walk on to get back to my car. I had to pass right the fuck by him on the trail and hope that he was just some kind of exhibitionist and not a rapist.

Yeah--stupid me for going out alone. I know not to go out at night alone unless it's near streetlights even though I used to like to go out with my dog. I can't have a dog because I rent and my landlord doesn't allow dogs. But the reality is that maybe I shouldn't have been in the forest alone...in the middle of the fucking day. I don't really go to that forest anymore...or any forest, alone.

I guess I'm just saying it's tiring--the long list of things you shouldn't do, as a woman, to be "careful" and shit. I'm a loner--I don't like going out with a bunch of friends in nature. I used to enjoy nature--I don't anymore. It's depressing. I've barely ever gone back to that forest and it's a great place to find porcini mushrooms. So I mean, it's really up to every individual how seriously shut in they want to become to keep their "laptop" from getting fucked up by some stupid dick. You can also criticize a woman for being a shut in or over vigilant or whatever.

The guy who exposed himself in the woods claimed that his pants fell down while he was jogging--I had to do a "citizens arrest" on him b/c it was in a state park...the park rangers had me fill out the paperwork with the guy standing there staring at me and my car the whole time--idk if he even had a cell phone he could have taken a shot of my license plate. I asked them if I could like...do it somewhere where the guy can't see me...like a police station or something, but no. The rangers actually asked me if I wanted them to bring him by my house. Literally. They asked me that, because I was asking them could we not do the citizens arrest there...I don't want him to see me. I only called the cops _this_ time because I was thinking "maybe this will help some other woman if he's done something worse or if he does in the future." It would have been easier if I'd never even reported it.

The fucker waited outside the only grocery store in my town the next day and came up to me to apologize after spending the night in jail--like I don't want you to fucking show up in the woods. I don't want you to show up at the store--I no longer go to that store either.

I have a long list of things I can't do but I like to do, and I try to be mindful of "staying safe." I do make mistakes sometimes. Anyway, I guess my point is that yes it really is that hard for a woman to avoid.

There are lots of women who somehow never experienced sexual assault--I don't know why me and not them (his exposure in public was the third time that I've had men do that, but the other times were less scary because I wasn't alone--I'm not calling it sexual assault). Maybe it's because I seem like an easy target. I just know that there are a lot of things I don't do...things that in my opinion, I should never have to "not do," but that I do to try to avoid sexual assault, and yet it's always a possibility and a risk. It gets really exhausting. Some women are more aggressive--idk, but it probably helps a little. Like I had a friend who would literally jump out of her car in a fit of road rage and scream "I'll rape you in front of your children!" and somehow men didn't mess with her. But that's just not my personality.





Victim blaming isn't the "rule" in the sense that victims go around telling everyone they experienced an assault and then everyone goes "oh well, you shouldn't have gone out at night." But it's still complicated enough--the "solution" women have to choose is not always easy.

I think Lillysocks put it well when she just said "And rape really is, or is really perceived as, a pervasive reality of women's existence."

For me, the things that have helped the most have been pepper spray (I recommend every woman carry it if it's legal in your country), a dog, and just...mostly avoiding people as much as possible (but again, that's a double edged sword because when you're out in public being alone is more dangerous...sometimes...it's not simple).

The biggest thing I'd want any man who's not a predator or who doesn't sexually assault women to know is that it is a pervasive part of many women's lives, and just understand. There might be more to being a frigid bitch or maybe if you see a woman alone in the woods...or anywhere...just be mindful not to approach her like you're going to fucking do something to her. I find this to be extremely frustrating that some people really have no idea how threatened some women feel in public--it's not that I hate men but if I don't know you, you shouldn't expect me to trust you.

Having men who are allies around helps--like the second time a man exposed himself in public, I was with a male friend and he went up to the guy and said "hey, knock it off." (the guy was jerking off). So you can totally help, but just understand that for a lot of women that is always going to be something they are being vigilant of. I actually didn't even see the guy that time, he did. He just said to quit it and the guy did. And that's not even sexual assault. Oh--or if a guy is trying to grab a girl and she's trying to get away from him, I always step up and try to help. That's what I do and I'm a woman.

I feel weird talking about it yet again here because there's always some dipshit who goes "oh rape victims or assault victims don't talk about it--if someone does they're just doing it for attention." But it's reality. This is some people's reality. So hopefully it can help shed some light on the frustration.

Ultimately I disagree with the idea of a curfew like that, but as a rhetorical device (I actually never watched the video so idk how it was used) it makes plenty of sense. And yes--women absolutely do get asked "what were you wearing" and "why were you out at night" and "what did you think he would do if you were alone with him?" As if it's just like some simple formula you follow to somehow magically control the choices of messed up people.


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## Cephalonimbus (Dec 6, 2010)

WickerDeer said:


> Ugh.
> 
> Look--a woman's body isn't a car or a laptop. You can't just leave your body parked somewhere in a garage all the time or plugged into the wall at home. It is problematic because sexual assault can happen with people you know and are on a date with, it can happen with people you don't know who you just randomly run into because you're in the wrong place at the wrong time. It can happen with people you kind of know (a friend of a friend) when they are left alone with you, even when they were fine before. Because it is something that the predator controls--their behavior. A woman does not control the behavior of a predator.
> 
> ...


Almost everything you point out here was specifically addressed in my post you quoted... and please don't explain to me that a woman's body isn't a car or a laptop when I devoted an entire paragraph to explaining how the comparison is purely meant to illustrate the point that we cannot realistically behave as though crime doesn't exist, and absolutely is not intended to imply that the experience of having things stolen is in any way comparable to having your physical integrity violated.

Now I can only speak for myself, but I'm quite aware the problem is very pervasive, even if the extent and of course the actual experience of having to deal with that so frequently is something I can only imagine... but yeah, there have been many situations where I was walking home late after a night out on a quiet street with nobody near but a lone woman walking across the street in the same direction or something like that. In such situations I'm very self-conscious about the perceived threat I am to her, but there's really nothing I can do about it, other than to give her enough space. I mean I still have to get from A to B so I'm in her vicinity by necessity, and she's not entirely wrong to be afraid of me, because even though I will not harm her in any way, I certainly am physically capable of doing so, and there are people who look just like me who actually will harm her. So my awareness doesn't help much, other than feeling some empathy for a stranger at that particular moment. In my home town it also used to be custom to escort girls who lived on the West side so they didn't have to cycle through a particularly creepy dark tunnel all by themselves to get home, which was the only way to cross the railroad tracks without taking a long detour. We did this not just because of the actual danger of cycling there alone, but also to make the girls feel more safe. I can't speak for every man, but my friends and I have always been mindful of these things.

I also specifically said that I acknowledge the unfairness of the women being forced to constantly be aware of possible danger. But the situation does seem to be that way, and I don't see how we can realistically change that. Finally, I still think the curfew makes no sense, even as a rhetorical device, because one situation is holding women accountable for the risks they take (probably often unfairly so), while the other is holding every man accountable for the behaviour of a small minority. It's self-imposed restriction pertaining to something that might happen to you, versus government mandated restriction pertaining to something that other men do. I really can't see how those two scenarios are even remotely comparable.


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

WickerDeer said:


> any man who's not a predator or who doesn't sexually assault


but alas, again, it carries the assumption that all men are potential predators. . . and all females are potential victims. and certainly, that aspect doesn't create any undue harm to males in general.



WickerDeer said:


> The biggest thing I'd want any man who's not a predator or who doesn't sexually assault women to know is that it is a pervasive part of many women's lives, and just understand. There might be more to being a frigid bitch or maybe if you see a woman alone in the woods...or anywhere...just be mindful not to approach her like you're going to fucking do something to her. I find this to be extremely frustrating that some people really have no idea how threatened some women feel in public--it's not that I hate men but if I don't know you, you shouldn't expect me to trust you.


and the vast majority of women have no idea how men feel... nor do they care in these proverbial pissing matches because they have internalized misogyny and don't believe in equality.. they desire men to be allies in gender equality but not equal partners that can express their mutual safety concerns. 

it's far more common for lads to be moved to more dangerous areas out of the public's concern for the welfare and safety of women and children. . . so, if a man is waiting for friends to exit a pub or on a ride, it's not uncommon for them to be viewed as suspicious or a potential threat and asked to go wait in a more dangerous area away from lights and people vs the difference of a lone woman waiting. waiting to change at dressing room, even bloody going to a public restroom or say being in a hospital where mates dropped off a massive teddy bear and having one of the nurses believed that you're trying lure small children to your room.

and your scenario, still leads women to believe it's suspicious behavior.. perhaps having seen one too many lifetime movies or thrillers of an awkward stalker trying to pretend he's not stalking. 

so, nope, all this just makes me feel like maybe you should take a walk in a blokes shoes to see what it's like to be damned if you do, damned if you don't.. having to walk on eggshells or crawl through broken glass for the possible histronic and fragile sensibilities of another in a public space with anxieties that every men desire them for their vagina from the public streets to family gatherings where every male in their household, including the dog and the fleas on its back, are just waiting to assault them in a massive gangbang. 

if y'all want to be treated like equals, then y'all need to start acting like it. . . your issues and concerns don't trump others. if you believe they do, then that's on you. . . it's not the rest of us that have to adjust our behavior for your handicaps.


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)




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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Rift said:


> yet the concept of men's rights and concerns is often perceived as being inherently misogynistic.
> 
> and when the law or rules are equally applied, we often find them more scrutinized in the public sphere Male Student Accuses Female Student of Sexual Assault. She Says He Wanted Revenge.
> 
> ...


I actually agree with you about this. I made an argument about this specific song a long time ago here, and garnered support from other women who agree that it can be flirtatious and even sexy (cat and mouse). Her willingness to go along with it though is why. I think in the movie where that came from (haven't seen it) they reverse the roles too. It's just seduction, across the board. Seduction isn't anti-feminist lol. (And kill me if it officially becomes that lol).

OFC - if someone's just pushing and not reading signals, than that's on them. But again, I really do think that most people give off signals. If you've become indoctrinated with reading "signals, as given off by 'women' - so can I trust this based on prior information, and not what's at hand?" than you might be in a dangerous place lol. It always comes down to an individual reading, and there is still risk in that (and it isn't the job of "women" to make it easier), but idk, I'm just gonna say this too. If you're a woman who feels pressured to give signals that you don't want to give, then maybe _you're_ the problem? And, for the record, I really don't think that this is the majority of women. Though idk. Men tend to be physically stronger and more socially influential. But if the solution is making them less that way so that everyone can feel "safe" than I don't like that either.

The men's issues you present are valid.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Rift said:


> but alas, again, it carries the assumption that all men are potential predators. . . and all females are potential victims. and certainly, that aspect doesn't create any undue harm to males in general.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All human beings are "potential predators" if you want to view it like that.

And alas as much as you want, but if you don't know someone you can't assume they aren't. That is basically what's being asked when people say "keep yourself safe" etc.

Yeah--I don't have the solution and I don't know what it's like to be a man.

That's the way people tend to be seen though--if I was a big tall man I doubt that I would have experienced some of the things I described. At the same time, yeah--I might not have the same opportunities--I can help little old ladies without them worrying and I can go around a lone woman on the street without her thinking I might sexually assault her.

It's a trade off--none of it is perfect. It's just how people see each other.

My sister goes hiking alone all the time, but she also has two incredibly sweet, loving, scary looking pitbulls. They look scary enough that criminals probably think "hmm I'd rather try to intimidate someone else." It's probably similar if you are accompanied by a tough looking guy or whatever...perhaps that's where the tall man thing comes in, because taller men just look a little more intimidating even if in reality shorter men can fight just as well. It doesn't matter who you are on the inside--it's all about the perceptions when it's sizing up strangers on the street.

I think men should be mindful that they probably tend to look stronger than women most of the time, and with the appearance of strength comes the appearance of a possible threat. 

I don't know what you're going on about with "if y'all want to be treated like equals"--I wasn't like carrying some sign in the forest that said "jump out and pull your dick out at me b/c I'm not acting like your equal."


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Just to take this back to the rape fantasy thing (I saw your post @Cephalonimbus but I just don't want to go around in circles a bunch on this topic)...I have spent a long time thinking about why and how to avoid sexual assault.

Rape fantasies are probably, in part, based on the myth that rape is a crime of passion. That someone's so excited or whatever that they just cant' control themselves. Most of the time that's not what it is--it's just like most petty crime--it's usually cowardly and probably more thought goes in to finding a victim you can get away with than like "oh wow she's so hot I have to rape her."

This is where fantasy really divides from reality and it's an important distinction.

To really keep safe, I think that probably avoiding looking like any potential easy target is the most important thing. As I said, my sister has two very mean looking (but sweet) dogs. Usually mentioning that you have a weapon on you sort of makes aggressors back off.

I mean...it depends on the psychology of the guy. But really, most rapists are cowards deep down inside. They just try to find people weaker than them to prey on. There are situations where they do get really angry though...so it's like never a perfect formula.

One time I was walking on the beach and a guy came up to me and he didn't know I could see him--anyway...I don't want to go into all the details, but I told him I had pepper spray and he kept himself at a distance of about five feet as he stalked me back to where there were more lights. He was clearly really angry and resentful...you could hear it in his voice. He said "oh--so you're gonna be like that are you?" He was still trying to scare me. I mean...that's also why you shouldn't judge a target that hard because it could go different directions--some guys might really back off while other guys might get really angry and double down.

But anyway, back to the fantasy part. The fantasy is based on a myth.

The reality is that rapists are cowards and like most criminals they just look for opportunities. It's no crime of passion (I mean, maybe technically it's called that idk but it's not passion). It's just run-of-the-mill opportunistic or cowardly behavior. Probably plenty of it is also due to some kind of psychological problems like the guy who exposed himself in the woods. Nothing about it is actually sexy or makes you feel valuable.

The myths society tells about it are what fuels the fantasy--not the reality of it.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

As for "men's shoes"--I think it's pretty clear that men's intimidating appearance (or whatever) doesn't lead to greater levels of sexual assault on men, as women's un-intimidating appearance probably does.

However, men do tend to have higher rates of violence committed upon them (other than sexual violence) and I think it's valid to consider how the appearance if being intimidating might add to that.

I find that especially concerning because being more likely to die from violence is pretty alarming.

This does not mean that I believe men should completely ignore the fact that they are likely physically stronger than a woman, and be considerate if there is a woman alone in a vulnerable situation, to be sure not to act intimidating. And I actually think the vast majority of men probably know this already--which perhaps makes it seem ignorant that I'd even mention it.

Sometimes it'd be nice if people just acted like they understood for a moment. You can't tell women to "watch over yourself" and "protect yourself" and "don't get raped--take the steps to avoid it" while telling them to treat lone men who they don't know, and who appear bigger and stronger than them like little baby puppies, in an empty street in the middle of the night. It doesn't work that way.

That being said--I think being female does add an ignorance about men's experiences (at least for me--also it's not like I grew up in a family with a bunch of brothers around me)...so I think that I have this impulse to lecture "men" like...oh men please don't pull your dick out in the woods. As if it's some misunderstanding and he just couldn't figure it out. The reality, which I am sure is kind of annoying to men who hear this kind of thing, is that yeah it's pretty obvious you don't do that. He knew exactly what he was doing--it wasn't "mixed signals" or "oops I didn't know not to do that."

And so it's also important to distinguish "men" as a group from the criminals the do things like that, because their motives are different and most men already know they aren't supposed to do that kind of stuff.

I think that's also why it's important to acknowledge that rape isn't a penis thing--it's not a male sex drive thing--it's not an 'she's so hot' thing--it's a calculated decision to prey on someone who appears vulnerable enough that you'll get away with it, just like most other crimes.


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## ENIGMA2019 (Jun 1, 2015)

Six said:


> You're asking me to enter the headspace: *Of a rapist.*
> 
> You know how awful an imposition that is?
> If a majority of women find the idea entertaining - what, I've got to snip...
> ...











Still laughing.....

I may have to go back to the top and watch the video. I must have missed what everyone says you are going on about. 6pm curfew...pfft Rape is not a joke. As far as what people do in their own time is on them. My ex tried the whole light choking out of nowhere and almost got a black eye. I asked what that was about and apparently- the chick he used to fuck could only get off being strangled. To each their own but - I like being able to breathe/no marks on my neck and I have no issues getting off the regular way and I can see where you are coming from. I personally would not want to date anyone that could not enjoy sex or get off if it is only one way = always outside of regular sex or foreplay. There are people that are like that and they should match up with the ones that are into it.

My suggestion (not that you asked _smirks_) ~ you do your thing and they do theirs. _shrugs_ I do not understand a hell of a lot of things but~ if I do not like something or how it makes me think/feel.... I remove myself from it. Everything should not be so hard. I also do not need to understand what others do in their private time if it does not affect me. I assume most everyone experiments to see what they like or do not. Or they know what they will NOT like and do not. It sounds like you have certain hard lines like a lot of people do. 

On a side note- I do enjoy your posts. Creative and the gifs and clips are always humorous.


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

WickerDeer said:


> As for "men's shoes"--I think it's pretty clear that men's intimidating appearance (or whatever) doesn't lead to greater levels of sexual assault on men, as women's un-intimidating appearance probably does.


alright, so if a woman who gets assaulted and looks intimidating we can pass the buck. nope, never about the inherent and systematic sexism against men because they have too much power and privilege, they're oh so intimidating... 



















WickerDeer said:


> However, men do tend to have higher rates of violence committed upon them (other than sexual violence) and I think it's valid to consider how the appearance if being intimidating might add to that.


so, their looks are the reason men are assaulted? uh huh... so, how do you suggest they don't look intimidating. dress a different way, walk with a swish, bend their wrist, take on a flamboyant personality, don't go out at night.. to avoid getting assaulted by those people that think they're intimidating and a threat? 

as far as sexual violence, we can't really know the stats when it goes mostly unreported and the climate concerning male sexual assault is often viewed as a joke, even the idea of creating organizations and dedicating funding to that endeavor is often viewed as a threat to women's programs. Let alone that women feel entitled to male bodies while discounting their feelings and opinions as they feel their lack of privileges or victim status has a higher value of concern than that of their male counterparts in similar situations.



WickerDeer said:


> I find that especially concerning because being more likely to die from violence is pretty alarming.
> 
> This does not mean that I believe men should completely ignore the fact that they are likely physically stronger than a woman, and be considerate if there is a woman alone in a vulnerable situation, to be sure not to act intimidating. And I actually think the vast majority of men probably know this already--which perhaps makes it seem ignorant that I'd even mention it.


by that standard, then women are vulnerable any time they are with a man, regardless of any feature or aspect other than he is male or assumed to be, as perhaps you'd be suggesting the same to gender variants and women with a masculine appearances. 

so, women are dainty, fragile flowers that we should coddle and protect. got it.



WickerDeer said:


> Sometimes it'd be nice if people just acted like they understood for a moment. You can't tell women to "watch over yourself" and "protect yourself" and "don't get raped--take the steps to avoid it" while telling them to treat lone men who they don't know, and who appear bigger and stronger than them like little baby puppies, in an empty street in the middle of the night. It doesn't work that way.


I guess it's like safe sex to which the majority of women believe it's the man's responsibility, too. afterall, she's not the one to wear the condom... female condoms are too costly and it'd send the wrong messages if she were to visit the clinic.


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)




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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

So, there was some talk about "objectifying," seeing an individual/group of individuals as "objects" and therefore classifying them based on "object characteristics", as well as the notion of "being used" for sex as something of a turn-on and all (which I think is in the regular rotation of human sexual programming). It seems that even in those situations where a woman is being "objectified" for sex in a consensual encounter, she is objectifying her partner just as much (no matter the kink). And to unfurl from personal to impersonal - she would be objectifying a man on the street who looks kinda big and scary (is he also black?). There are so many _elaborate trappings to get around the object-nature, all the while entrenched._

Nothing new here, of course... but what I mean to get at is maybe we don't have a problem with objectifying people, but "subjectifying" sex. It's a behavior that sort of necessitates admitting our object-nature, even if briefly... or at least, I'm not even sure how it would go if one didn't do so at some point in the act (hmm... challenge accepted? ).

I have trouble with the reality of being an object - as much an object as a tree or a rock... or a cloud, doing mysterious cloud things. Fundamentally, I believe this to be true (which probably violates a number of religions). This is why I must occupy myself while I eat - talking, or listening, or pondering, or making sure the meal is complex, dressed up, and served with proper ambiance - even if such practices risk overindulgence. The body becomes subordinate to subjective conditions, separated by an object-nature, and so one can abuse it without moral complaint. If I sit alone with a fucking piece of lettuce and focus on eating, I'm suddenly reminded that I'm matter consuming matter, and the uncanniness is very unpleasant.

Sex brings on that sensation, too, viscerally and without fail, so I must attempt to subjectify it to forget that I'm operating more or less on the level of an amoeba at all times, which gets even more unsettling and complicated when another person and all these social considerations are involved.

Then again, I love amoebas. I can subjectify anything.


* *





Big Bloody Ship. So sue me.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Rift said:


> alright, so if a woman who gets assaulted and looks intimidating we can pass the buck. nope, never about the inherent and systematic sexism against men because they have too much power and privilege, they're oh so intimidating...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's actually really scary to try to understand what makes men intimidating and how to make them not-intimidating.

If you make them more like women, you'll still risk sexual assault--I don't know!

Women are absolutely in positions in which they need to be protected at times--this happens--it doesn't mean that a man should always view every woman as a dainty flower or whatever. 

But if a woman is in a public place, I think it's good to be in solidarity with her--solidarity is a wonderful word and it means just being there with someone. I think also that anyone should try being in solidarity with people who aren't seeking to harm, but who might need some support just because they are seeking to resolve conflict (and say they can actually do it.)


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

I'm kind of a littel bit drunk--but I think that men--especially effeminate men, are treated badly.

What do you envision when you think of the word "solidarity"?


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

WickerDeer said:


> What do you envision when you think of the word "solidarity"?


for this thread...





overused poppycock that has lost its meaning like most words and phrases taken to a commericalised extreme. which also prompts more gender war arguments; female solidarity = good, bro/lad/circlejerk culture = bad.









Robyn Urback: No, Movember is not 'misogynist'


It's distressing that even needs saying




nationalpost.com










it's weaponized more than it's used as a shield. . . but often it really doesn't mean anything. it's a faded sticker, another pin, another ribbon added to countless others.

solidarity in what and how?

if we were in solidarity against sexism... would be equally observant of each sex and their plights or only focused on one?

frankly, if I wanted to make more of a dangerous fuss I'd go back to your comment on native americans and contrast it with the history of indigenous populations, particularly the largest native american nation in the u.s. or push forward a greater generalization on indingenous govts that are institutionallly corrupt, where reports are frequently buried or can take decades to process, where victims risk not only their own citizenship status but that of their entire family line along with other retaliation, where children are often placed back in the homes of offenders or family of offenders that don't adhere to rules and where sex crimes is a significant problem as are numerous other issues, such as the treatment of people with developmental disabilities that frequently treated as house slaves but people romanticize native americans and all they have to do is appear in regalia to have it all swept away - well, as long as they look the part - as bigotry and discrimination routinely happens in the longstanding cancel culture that frequently targets indigenous people when they're not an archaic stereotypical throwback to their ancestors. . . and campaigns centered on missing indigenous women are frought with complications as the majority of the focus is directed towards external factors rather than addressing the problems within... that are then brushed off on historical and multigenerational trauma, so the methods used to address the present problems are often ineffectual... which are largely centered on the problems of welfare dependency, addiction and the poor state of indian hospitals which just pouring money into has yet to help. for all the advancements, the educated that dare not leave, often end up working for walmart or lowly indian jobs.. 'success' is found the further one gets away from it... but from the right to left, it's not a subject anyone desires to touch upon.

there's too many mixed messages in these discussions, a kind of blind worship cult and groupthink. in which we elevate whatever the cause may be to impossible extreme and deny it's fallacies when it falls from it's lofty idealized pedestal. . . moving from one extreme to the next in often unhealthy manners. from the near invincible (unearned) empowerment to the hysterical and paranoid delusions of monsters lurking from the corner of our eyes... danger behind every corner.

what does it mean to treat people equally?


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Rift said:


> for this thread...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So it sounds like to me, that to you "solidarity" means to consider other cultures and people critically, though you don't consider it part of solidarity because that concept is too old to use.

"what does it mean to treat people equally?"

To treat them like each other--in our society, it means to treat them like shit, generally. Because that's how we regard humanity and that's how we treat them in general.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

WickerDeer said:


> The concept of the muse is complex--but I understand it came from the idea that a muse is an abstraction. The human muse is usually just the vessel for that. The artist is the one who uses the human muse to create the work of art that communicates what the abstraction is saying.
> 
> The artist could be seen as the tool--the human muse is the vessel and also objectified in a way--and the "spirit" or abstract muse is the concept that is being brought into being through the process--ultimately resulting in a work of art.
> 
> ...


I enjoy how much detail and nuance you're adding here. I wouldn't disagree with any of that.

When we are discussing an intimate relationship of some sort, where consent and agency become more of a concern, "collaboration" rather than "imposition" would be preferred, wouldn't you think? Imposition is much more questionable, morally, even if it happens in a lot of relationships. I do recommend you read the rest of Poppers' comments, since there isn't much conflict here in what you're saying and her meaning (it's the last couple paragraphs).

I've had some of these questions before while observation drawing - about public vs private space, and how the lines blur sometimes. Like, while out and about drawing figures, I'd inevitably happen upon someone in an intimate moment who didn't really 'consent' to being observed and recorded by my pen. For instance, I saw a young woman in a park, cradling into a statue of a man that had arms outstretched. She looked very sad, a deep frown on her face, a faraway look. She remained there for long enough to draw her - yet I felt conflicted because it seemed wrong, somehow, to intrude on whatever moment she was having or be inspired by such a moment. I think there are many examples of the "observer dilemma" .... e.g. war reporters, too.

I don't really know what to make of all that, but I'm attempting to add some nuance, as well.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

(edit: we both posted around the same time and I wrote this before reading your response. It's just kind of important for me to say since I do care about art models and muses.)

Although I also want to say that I think the article you brought up @Squirt is important because there is a long history of artists models being mistreated.

Historically and even now society is so ashamed of nudity and so conflicted about the female body, that even in situations where artists arent' having abusive relationships with their muse/lovers, there was a lot of abuse and hardship given out to ballerinas and other models.

That's one of the reasons I admire life-drawing models so much, because they are willing to take their clothes off in this day in age where people commit suicide because others are spreading revenge porn about them over the internet b/c they exposed their breasts and a photo was taken.

So I think it's very brave of nude models and they deserve a lot of respect. And on top of that, as I said--a lot of them are creators in their own rights. They are often dancers, but they are also often artists themselves, and even the ones who aren't have taken their lives to cultivate their physical form, which is a type of creativity.

So I agree with you that they do have agency and that should be acknowledged, as well as they should also be acknowledged for their contribution to any finished work.


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

lilysocks said:


> i was born in 1965 in another country, so i am both an early inheritor of the 'silence' social ethic around rape and domestic violence, and a participant in and beneficiary of the speaking-out that has gone on for at least the last 50+ years.


the equivalent is the same with males. . . but the silent ethic remains with:

adult sexual assault from either sex. though cases involving women rarely ever go to court unless the victim was developmentally delayed. though it is somewhat easier if the assailant was male and they are lgbt in place where it legal and there is a lgbt community, they may not report it to authorities because of fear of homophobia, the same if there is not a sizable lgbt community and it still does carry some stigmas even in the lgbt community and of course, unlikely to be reported in nations where homosexuality is outlawed or there is a heavy negative bias, even if the victim was str8, as often victims are at risk of charges. 

date rape from a woman. or in a nation where homosexuality is outlawed, from a man, even if said man is str8. if both are homosexual/bisexual, they may feel wary in reporting because fear of homophobia and there is a greater assumption of drug use among homosexual/bisexual men, so it may not be believed even in locations with a large gay community. If it involves drugging and kidnapping/being trapped by a man and one manages to calls emergency services, it's not uncommon for them to dismiss it as domestic situation in which the victim had too much to drink. so, it's better for them to call family/friends, if they can, and have them press authorities to act.

child/teen sexual assault - i.e. rape, unwanted sex or harassment from a woman unless it involves an immediate blood relative, particularly a mother - the opinion has changed some in regards to molestation or sexual assault by a man, however, it does vary by country especially where homosexuality is outlawed and it carries a greater stigma than if it was by a woman, mainly with the assumption the victim will become a sexual offender themselves, if social services are involved it is often red flagged as a possibility. so aside from the stigmas associated with being sexually assaulted as an adult male, if aware of either the public's perception or knowledge of how the system reacts to it... it serves as an additional reason not to report.

and domestic violence especially if it involves a woman because of public perceptions and reporting it often puts them at risk - potentially being arrested/detained, homeless (asked to leave the residence), and very few resources available to provide them with support. in many nations, men are taught not to hit females, this includes self defense and if they react with self defense they face an even greater likelihood of being charged with a crime or if surrounded by others, people intervening on the woman's behalf, which may include violent reactions. 

in addition, if there are children involved and the woman is the primary earner or otherwise holds power in the relationship, again there are very few resources a father can turn to... very few shelters or homeless services that provide for single fathers, so in most cases like that, the father and the children will be separated... if they have no other help, such as family or friends. and it can be difficult for the father to get his children back if they are sent to the system. 

in the u.s. homeless services are primarily dedicated to those with mental health issues or addiction problems and geared towards getting them on disability/welfare because someone has to pay - whether it is the state or the individual themselves. there is very little and in most locations no support services available for those that are simply homeless. save for nightly shelters through charities. this seems variable by nation but more true the further one gets away from major cities

if there's domestic violence between two men.. obviously again, not in places where homophobia is to be expected. but even in friendly areas, it's not uncommon for the reaction from authorities to treat it as if both are guilty unless one is significantly injured or the violent one is acting crazy. so, again, might be better to call a family/friend in addition to authorities.

and the self defense issue actually holds true with all of them... but especially women. it's always the argument that a healthy, able, bigger/stronger/taller/masculine-looking adult or teen male should be able to defend himself against an attack from a woman yet there would be public and in most cases, legal consequences if he ever did... especially if she is injuried in the process.



WickerDeer said:


> Sexual consent is important too because for women, even admitting that they've had any kind of erotic fantasy can be seen as some kind of consent--or women have had to worry about that.


and because women assume that all men want sex, anytime, anywhere, with anyone... especially when they've had one too many drinks. . . to which many don't know their limits. 






but far worse if there's a group of them... they just feed into each other and push it further and further...

in situations with erotic performers as well as other staff, they are known for getting too sexually aggressive. of course, this also extends to other situations.. and beware the lad that wears a kilt anywhere near a hen party, frankly most blokes should avoid getting anywhere near a bachelorette party.... as women aren't really aware of their entitlement issues.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Squirt said:


> I enjoy how much detail and nuance you're adding here. I wouldn't disagree with any of that.
> 
> When we are discussing an intimate relationship of some sort, where consent and agency become more of a concern, "collaboration" rather than "imposition" would be preferred, wouldn't you think? Imposition is much more questionable, morally, even if it happens in a lot of relationships. I do recommend you read the rest of Poppers' comments, since there isn't much conflict here in what you're saying and her meaning (it's the last couple paragraphs).
> 
> ...


lol I guess you are right about "collaboration" being better than "imposition", especially if you're in a sexual/romantic relationship with the muse. haha

And I liked reading your example. It sounds like a very moving thing to see--even the way you describe it. A woman cradling herself in the arms of an inanimate object.

I have experiences like that where I feel conflicted too. I wonder if there's a little bit of a different perspective _in general _for female artists, especially if they've struggled with receiving unwanted attention or feeling objectified.

And then there are also issues of who owns your image? That is part of this all--and comes up with discussions of revenge porn but also governs how artists should be allowed to use images of other people.

But I have those moments too--and also where I feel a bit like a creeper or a voyer or something, because lets face it--to draw something you have to sit there and stare at it for a really long time and in most situations sitting and staring and focusing so much attention on someone would creep them out. lol

But that's why it's nice to be able to talk with other artists and have groups with models, because you know what the consent is--same thing should be done with muses even when romantic/sexual relationships are involved.


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## Six (Oct 14, 2019)

[On second thought I think that story was too traumatising...]


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Rift said:


> in addition, if there are children involved and the woman is the primary earner or otherwise holds power in the relationship, again there are very few resources a father can turn to... very few shelters or homeless services that provide for single fathers, so in most cases like that, the father and the children will be separated... if they have no other help, such as family or friends. and it can be difficult for the father to get his children back if they are sent to the system.


So, I have a story here.

I lived in a homeless shelter for six months when I was sixteen in a major US city. Men were on the first floor, and women and children were placed on the second floor. We had separate entrances. I remember being intimidated because whenever I walked by the first floor, I'd get cat-called by men through the windows (whenever I was out anywhere in that town I was cat-called... even from across the street... ah, the dangers of being fresh off puberty). I ended up avoiding that side of the building altogether.

However, a family that included a single father with girls would be placed on the second floor (If the family included both parents, the father would stay on the first and the mother and children on the second). This made the other women in the shelter uncomfortable. While I was there, there was only one man with us. He had two daughters between ages of 7 and 10. I got into a conversation with him once. He only stayed a couple weeks (which is good that he was able to find a better accommodation quickly).

He told me he wanted to be screenwriter and asked to show me his script and storyboard to get my opinion. His story ended up being about a teenage girl that gets into a situation where she's almost date raped, but escapes. I got the strong sense that he wanted to write this story to teach his girls how to recognize red flags, set boundaries and defend themselves. He asked what I thought of the story, especially as a teenage girl. It was really interesting and he was very earnest about it. I could also tell he was very self-conscious about being on the second floor with the scrutinizing glares of the female residents, and so I tried to be as supportive as I could. It couldn't be easy to be a young father trying to raise two girls alone, with no home. I'd say out of the many people that I met there, he came off as one of the more stable individuals, which made me laugh, considering he was treated with so much suspicion. I thought it was very brave of him to approach me.

(I should probably also add that I was a bit worried, too... and paid close attention to the girls' behavior and made sure to talk to them a few times... I mean, it sucks to feel a need to be protective, but statistics are statistics and abuses against children in poverty is so damn high.)


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Did that get too real?


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

it's worse for women














Writer who penned novel about depression jumps to his death


A Brooklyn writer whose suicide-themed first novel was turned into a Hollywood flick killed himself by jumping from a window at his parents’ home near Grand Army Plaza Thursday, authorities said. E…




nypost.com


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Rift said:


> it's worse for women
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I remember I tried to be encouraging/supportive to a guy that was on the verge of tears and seemed really down, asking if he was okay, and he immediately took it as an invitation for a sexual advance and tried to touch me.

Actually, that sort of response has happened almost every time I’ve tried to comfort an emotional man now that I think about it, at least with straight men.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Rift said:


> and because women assume that all men want sex, anytime, anywhere, with anyone... especially when they've had one too many drinks. . . to which many don't know their limits.



I don't think it's fair to say "women assume all men want sex."

That's generalizing women and it's also about an assumption generalizing men.

I do think women can internalize tht belief--and it's unhealthy. 

It's actually extremely disturbing to me. 

I'm not sure what's going on with the trauma stories right now, but I've said it before and I'll tell it in case anyone can learn from it. It's in trigger warning--it's about how I lost my virginity.

Trigger warning


* *






When I lost my virginity it was without my consent--I clearly and specifically said I did not want to have sex.

Now lets just stop here...I didn't say that I didn't want to have sex because I thought "all men want sex all the time." I said it because I thought it was possible the person was going to try to have sex with me. It turns out I was right, even though they looked me in the eye and said "it's okay, we won't" less than a second before they did. That's called rape.

Later that day my female friend told me "he just thought of you as a piece of meat." She may have also said something like "all men think of women as pieces of meat."

This bothered me for a long time because I sort of generalized that in a weird way--it hurt me a lot to think someone would deny that I had a brain or any choices or whatever. So I did generalize it into this idea "men all think all women are just pieces of meat." And probably furthermore generalized it into "men must be like meat eating animals." And furthermore "maybe I am just a piece of meat--or that is my only value to 'men.""

This all happened somewhat unconsciously because it wasn't until a decade later that I allowed myself to accept that it was technically "rape." 

That kind of thinking is incredibly toxic to both the individual and also to others. I suppose it's probably sexism, in some core way--that just kind of came about from unprocessed trauma.

I've spent years redefining it because I am romantic. I don't want to believe such horrible things about other people and I don't want to believe things like that about myself. If that was really true--just for selfish reasons, that means I could never have a romantic relationship with someone who thought of me as anything but "meat."

But I can see how someone could end up internalizing a sexist belief like that.

I also can say I did actually do pretty unethical things at times to men a couple times, during that time. Like once I allowed a guy with a girlfriend to come on to me and then pushed him away before he was satisfied, and when he pleaded with me not to tell his gf and I told him I wouldn't lie to her. So I think this was part of my just being nasty--I still think what he did was wrong, but I didn't really want to be with him anyway. I was just trying to "teach him a lesson" like some kind of vengeful fury. I think I was also probably kind of mad that I'd never had a romantic relationship but this guy could have one and he'd even cheat. Again--"nice girl" resentment. 

Anyway--men are not all one way. Women don't benefit from thinking that...it's something that hurts women as well, and in some cases it might have been caused by a trauma in the first case.

Later on, my friend (the same female friend who said he thought of me as a piece of meat) told me one night at a party "isn't it nice to think any of these guys will have sex with you because you're attractive?"

And I thought "no." It's not nice--because at the core I am a romantic. At the core I believe in individuality. And again--the idea that all men are one way bothers me a lot.

Also...she was wrong. Some of these guys might be in relationships with women--they might be attracted but they might not choose to have sex with anyone. Some of these guys might not be attracted. Some of these guys might have other views about sex that prevent them from wanting to have sex with random strangers (honestly, I'd assume/hope most of them). Some of them might be gay. 

To me, the idea that that could be a reality is like a dystopia. As if people just have a hive mind.

The other frustrating thing to me about this is that my friend who said that was actually much more smooth and able to find romantic partners than me, perhaps in part because she did generalize--hence the reality of my "nice girl" frustration. Because I'm not seductive and I'm alone...there are probably women who hold those kind of toxic views about men who are in relationships with them, while poor me I have to be all alone etc. I sound like an incel sometimes because I relate to some of their arguments...because I've been sexist (both misogynistic and misandristric, I guess). 

I've spent years tearing that apart and clarifying and acknowledging that these generalizations are false, and these misunderstandings aren't reality. And I love knowing that they aren't reality even if I'm alone. Because at least I know it's possible someone out there is having the fulfilling relationship I'd wish I could have. And that makes me happy.

Not everyone is a romntic though. Not everyone values individualism that highly. There are people in this world who will hurt you, abuse you, or exploit you. There are also people in the world who won't.

And it's worthwhile to find friends who are not going to treat you like you are just meat. Not everyone wants to dismantle their own sexist beliefs and acknowledge individuals of the other gender as individuals.




@Squirt--I hope that guy was just wanting to do what he said he was. I, personally, am extremely suspicious of him from hearing your story, but I wasn't there.

The reason why I'm suspicious is not because "all men are this or that" but because when I was a teen it was quite common for male photographers to approach young girls and trick them into doing pornography.

I'm not saying ALL people who approach others to take photos or film them are trying to abuse, exploit etc. But it does happen.

I was also approached by a man who's a friend of mine--he shows his photos in slide shows. He is open and honest that he takes nude photos. He asked me in a respectful way if I wanted to and I told him no. And he accepted that and it was fine. I don't believe his photos were really even pornography--more like borderline nude photos--sort of maybe a little bit suggestive but not like being in a porn film. And I was an adult. I'm still friends with him--he did nothing wrong, in my opinion...and does nothing wrong by taking nude photos.

I find it weird that the guy in your story would think he could teach teen girls to avoid rape like that--I mean, it would be just as cautious to avoid him in my opinion.

It sucks that you sometimes have to be suspicious--but I think it's better to accept (for myself) that I don't really know someone or what they will do until a certain...loooooong...amount of time.


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

Squirt said:


> I remember I tried to be encouraging/supportive to a guy that was on the verge of tears and seemed really down, asking if he was okay, and he immediately took it as an invitation for a sexual advance and tried to touch me.
> 
> Actually, that sort of response has happened almost every time I’ve tried to comfort an emotional man now that I think about it, at least with straight men.


most guys have experiences of being taken advantaged by a woman they felt sorry for, too... by viewing their kindness as weakness.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Rift said:


> most guys have experiences of being taken advantaged by a woman they felt sorry for, too... by viewing their kindness as weakness.


That’s true, and to me a separate issue.

I was explaining that calousness or some prejudice against men being emotional isn’t the only reason why a woman might not want to try to comfort a guy who is crying, especially a stranger. I definitely learned I needed to consider how my intentions might be interpreted, and whether or not I want to take that risk. Even so, I still have trouble ignoring it or walking away if someone is looking for support and not getting it anywhere - so it gets frustrating to have to be so freaking careful just by virtue of being female, apparently.


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

WickerDeer said:


> I don't think it's fair to say "women assume all men want sex."
> 
> That's generalizing women and it's also about an assumption generalizing men.


I thought about adding most or some but since others are being fast and loose with their generalizations, I thought why not join the fun.


trauma

* *





I've been assaulted by both males and females. . . and we could also throw related issues with the medical establishment in there, too. all of which within society has a stigma on virtually every aspect of me. my sexuality (which within the lgbt community has a history of separating themselves from and in turn, isolating people who have experienced sexual trauma, and of course, that it makes one suspect in the rest of society, too... prompting many to believe it's only a symptom of trauma or health conditions.), my values, how I've engaged this conversation, being introverted, etc - and when some know that, often there is little of myself they see as me - they won't even allow me to own my failures or successes... nearly everything becomes associated with it.

but what it does shape is akin to this:

alex kingston - boudica warrior queen (2003) at t=2822 

because empathy from others is generally lacking as this thread has already largely shown.


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

Squirt said:


> That’s true, and to me a separate issue.


to you and many

and yet it is not.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Rift said:


> no, it's not.


Like I said earlier, turning everything into a contest gets nowhere... especially if we think empathy is important.


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

Squirt said:


> Like I said earlier, turning everything into a contest gets nowhere... especially if we think empathy is important.


it's not a contest in regards to that. 

it is a fact.

and important if we are to believe empathy is important.

you want to play it down because every man you've pitied has made sexual advances yet when I say most men have been taken advantaged of by showing kindness what do you really think it means... you want to justify your biases and deny theirs?

some men have paid that price with their lives, their livelihood, with scars both physical and deeper still. you say it is different - it is relative - sexual advances, murder, abuse, theft, and so on... are their tears, fears, really so different from yours?

so, I call bs.

you say make a plea about not making it a contest because you'd rather be in the dark and believe what you believe - the comforts of not knowing, not needing to know, not needing to care. yes, that's an assumption on my part. 

this has always been a contest about who has the monopoly on pain, on who's pain is valued more... to all the generalizations to be made of the sexes


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

it's funny of those that say they don't want to get in the head of a rapist yet see the world as rape.. . every corner a danger, every person suspect, imagining all the ways it might happen.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

WickerDeer said:


> I don't think it's fair to say "women assume all men want sex."
> 
> That's generalizing women and it's also about an assumption generalizing men.
> 
> ...


Well, I acknowledge I will never know for sure. I can only do the best I can wherever I am at. I try to hold onto all possibilities, to have contingencies.

Not being able to protect people in bad situations has haunted me for most of my life because I’ve seen so much of it first hand, and often seemed to be able to dodge abuse where others could not. Was it luck? Was it me? Was it them? I end up thinking about that a lot.

Staring down my stepfather at eight years old in his moments of drunken wrath - all 300 lbs of him - was a lesson in overcoming fear. That is where I learned that being small and vulnerable can have an advantage. He knew, and I knew, that if he ever hit me he was going straight to jail. So he would beat holes in the wall instead. I can see how some might come to this realization of their position and use it nefariously - but for me, I just wanted to be safe and keep others safe. Even for him, I had compassion, because so much of his feelings I could empathize with - he was an artist and would draw eagles chained to the ground, screaming with fury. I used to copy all his beautiful drawings, mesmerized by the desire for freedom, knowing that anger behind it, and I could recognize we’re complicated and flawed and can frighten one another, and still care about one another.

So, whenever I can, I always want to give someone a chance.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Rift said:


> it's not a contest in regards to that.
> 
> it is a fact.
> 
> ...


Bringing up men’s struggles with feeling taken advantage of after I related why I would hesitate to comfort a man I didn’t know seemed like you were trying to deny _my_ experience, not that I was denying anyone elses...

I also think it is weird that you call it pity. Would you call it that if I were talking about comforting a woman?

Edit: also, I didn’t say every man. There are notable exceptions. It has happened enough to make me wary, though.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Rift said:


> it's funny of those that say they don't want to get in the head of a rapist yet see the world as rape.. . every corner a danger, every person suspect, imagining all the ways it might happen.


I've been raped once. I've been sexually assaulted twice (but was able to fight off the person). One of them almost raped me after I headbutted them--because I wasn't strong enough to get out from under them. I've been exposed to in public three times at least--the first time when I was a child). I've been near-miss harassed in public at least twice.

And I'm not going through the entire laundry list of these incidents right now....there may be more that I haven't bothered to recall.

So yeah--I get it. No one likes to be mistrusted.

I don't like to be mistrusted either.

But if you're going to get pissed at women who see the world as threatening, who consider that there could be someone who is trying to harm them...and if you don't know that person you don't really know what their intentions are...

If you are going to get pissed at that, I hope you never tell anyone to try to keep themselves safe from sexual assault.

All I've ever done is try to learn from the past and avoid making the same mistakes. I'm not a mind reader. I tend to be trusting and I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt more than others. This is possibly one reason why I've had so many negative incidences.

Anyway--All I want to say is that if you're going to try to tell people like me not to be suspicious of strangers before you get to know them. Don't try to tell us to avoid sexual assault. You're essentially telling me I should go out there and trust men, and if they rape me oh well...not to big a deal right? Just keep doing the same exact thing but don't offend anyone by mistrusting them as a stranger!

Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning here--but I am really frustrated and irritated by this kind of expectation.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Squirt said:


> Well, I acknowledge I will never know for sure. I can only do the best I can wherever I am at. I try to hold onto all possibilities, to have contingencies.
> 
> Not being able to protect people in bad situations has haunted me for most of my life because I’ve seen so much of it first hand, and often seemed to be able to dodge abuse where others could not. Was it luck? Was it me? Was it them? I end up thinking about that a lot.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry you had to experience that--it sounds terrifying. 

But it also sounds like you're a wise and caring person, and you've used your past negative experiences to transform them into some insight that can help you to make the world a nicer, kinder place.

So that's definitely a great accomplishment and I'm sure the people you've impacted have been fortunate, and that their lives have been made brighter by your trying to help--even though I agree, there is only so much anyone can do.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Rift said:


> I thought about adding most or some but since others are being fast and loose with their generalizations, I thought why not join the fun.
> 
> 
> trauma
> ...



I'm sorry that has happened to you.

I don't share my thoughts because I want people to react the same way I do to the threat of sexual assault. If you can cope with it a different way and you don't end up avoiding people...then I think that's great, so long as you are healing.

I appreciate when people call out negative generalizations that I have, but I can't accept that I think things that I do not think. That is invalidating my thoughts and my feelings.

People react to trauma in different ways. Some people react by avoidance. And it's not the healthiest.

But it's not the same thing as believing that "ALL MEN are X" and when someone tells me I believe something I adamantly do not believe, I am going to repeat the truth.

But for sure--definitely it's not necessary or healthy for someone to completely withdraw from the outside world as a reaction to trauma and threat. I'm not saying you should do that. But I'm not doing that because I believe negative generalizations about the other gender and I'm going to argue with that.

I am not being particularly empathetic right now because I feel invalidated and as if people refuse to listen to my words when I describe my feelings and thoughts. Which only I know.

But I do appreciate if I do have negative generalizations for them to be called out--I just don't appreciate repeated invalidation when I clarify that I do not hold such views.

But I am sorry that happened to you and I really do hope that you are able to move on from it and to continue to work towards your quality of life. 

And I am sorry that the things I've said have reminded you of negative generalizations about men--I can see how it would, but that was not my intention.

Thank you for alerting me about that as I never intended to communicate such negative ideas about any gender. And I do know I am largely ignorant about a lot of things other people face.

Looking over your comment again--I realize maybe you were just trying to express your feelings and not trying to say all women believe that, so you were not trying to say I believe that. And so I apologize also if I overreacted and took your statement too literally.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

WickerDeer said:


> I've been raped once. I've been sexually assaulted twice (but was able to fight off the person). One of them almost raped me after I headbutted them--because I wasn't strong enough to get out from under them. I've been exposed to in public three times at least--the first time when I was a child). I've been near-miss harassed in public at least twice.
> 
> And I'm not going through the entire laundry list of these incidents right now....there may be more that I haven't bothered to recall.
> 
> ...


Yeah, this is the sense I am getting. It is why the adversarial angle needs to stop.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Squirt said:


> Yeah, this is the sense I am getting. It is why the adversarial angle needs to stop.


I agree it would be nice if people could share their thoughts and feelings without other people trying to speak for them (like say that they believe or think or feel something they don't).

But at the same time I think it does help to consider how if a man has been hurt by this generalization about men...that they could connect the dots and assume that behavior like mine is motivated by a belief in men--not that they _could_ be a thread and I don't know yet, but that all men _are_ a threat.

Considering how the idea that men think of women as "meat" lodged itself in my teenage heart, like a shard of ice, and infected my perception of the world and myself for years, I also have to consider that men might be affected by the painful thought as well.

I think this thread has helped open my eyes to that--I am still not certain, but I thought that might be going on. I mean, only the individuals can speak for themselves. 

So it is good to know that someone could interpret my behavior that way--especially since it's probably not well known how people deal with trauma (at least it's not known to me). And this type of withdrawal or avoidant behavior might be interpreted as believing that all men are threats, when in reality it's more based in an insecurity in myself--that I am a poor judge of who is threatening and who isn't and that I can't be confident in my ability to keep myself safe because of all the near misses I've had, even after trying to take other precautions.

It's a long journey for anyone who's experienced trauma--men have also experienced trauma and may be reactive or hurt by it in similar and different ways than I have.

But yeah--I think it's better to just listen to people. I am grateful I already learned a lot from this thread though. Even though I'm not really sure about whether or not the idea that men all want sex or men all want to rape feels toxic or painful to men (not all men, but at least some of them). I know it feels toxic to me though--so I am really curious if it has bothered any men as much as it's bothered me before.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

I could've been raped once. When I was in 8th grade I overheard some 9th grade boys contemplating raping me once, but the consensus ended up being "No, we'll get in trouble." Yes I'm a dude, and no I'm not gay. At least it never happened though.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

WickerDeer said:


> I agree it would be nice if people could share their thoughts and feelings without other people trying to speak for them (like say that they believe or think or feel something they don't).
> 
> But at the same time I think it does help to consider how if a man has been hurt by this generalization about men...that they could connect the dots and assume that behavior like mine is motivated by a belief in men--not that they _could_ be a thread and I don't know yet, but that all men _are_ a threat.
> 
> ...


I would think we’d all be on the same side, here.

That a woman would be more worried about the safety of the other women in a room rather than a man’s feelings doesn’t show how “much worse” men have it in terms of prejudice, but how prevalent experiences of abuse are - at both men and women’s expense.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Ock said:


> I could've been raped once. When I was in 8th grade I overheard some 9th grade boys contemplating raping me once, but the consensus ended up being "No, we'll get in trouble." Yes I'm a dude, and no I'm not gay. At least it never happened though.


That's horrible! I'm glad it didn't happen.

I think it's so sad when people use sex as violence. Hopefully they all thought long and realized never to do that.

Sometimes I think of Steig Larsson who wrote The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, because he witnessed a gang rape and didn't do anything about it. And it haunted him for his whole life (probably, at least seems like it did). I think he was just a teen--but he was one of the boys in the group that raped the girl.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Ock said:


> I could've been raped once. When I was in 8th grade I overheard some 9th grade boys contemplating raping me once, but the consensus ended up being "No, we'll get in trouble." Yes I'm a dude, and no I'm not gay. At least it never happened though.


That’s upsetting. How did you handle that? Totally understand if you don’t want to answer, but not very many guys admit to this kind of stuff so the dialogue gets too one-sided, it seems.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

WickerDeer said:


> Sometimes I think of Steig Larsson who wrote The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, because he witnessed a gang rape and didn't do anything about it. And it haunted him for his whole life (probably, at least seems like it did). I think he was just a teen--but he was one of the boys in the group that raped the girl.


Its true that being a perpetrator or witnessing things without doing anything can scar someone big time as well. Arguably the worst thing I ever did was when I was about 5. I peed on a baby in a stroller. I still feel really bad about it. People kinda exonerate me because I was 5, but somehow I don't completely exonerate myself.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Ock said:


> Its true that being a perpetrator or witnessing things without doing anything can scar someone big time as well. Arguably the worst thing I ever did was when I was about 5. I peed on a baby in a stroller. I still feel really bad about it. People kinda exonerate me because I was 5, but somehow I don't completely exonerate myself.


Absolutely. The kids who said that were teens--hopefully they got it figured out, but teens do make really bad decisions sometimes and it can leave scars that last for life.

I once accidentally killed a baby bird while trying to keep it safe--you can't ever get rid of the pain, but you can try to do better in the future.

I also wanted to mention that Khaled Hosseini's The Kite Runner features a story of sex abuse by boys from boys. It's not something that's talked about as much. I'm not sure how helpful it might be to read.

I really liked A Thousand Splendid Suns though, which he wrote about domestic violence against women.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Squirt said:


> That’s upsetting. How did you handle that? Totally understand if you don’t want to answer, but not very many guys admit to this kind of stuff so the dialogue gets too one-sided, it seems.


I didn't "handle" it. I was just a "weird" loner, and no one would have confronted them for me, and I didn't want to confront them because I didn't want them to change their mind. Also, if I spoke up I'd probably just be laughed at because I was a guy, or maybe other boys would've got the same idea to do that to me.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Ock said:


> I didn't "handle" it. I was just a "weird" loner, and no one would have confronted them for me, and I didn't want to confront them because I didn't want them to change their mind. Also, if I spoke up I'd probably just be laughed at because I was a guy, or maybe other boys would've got the same idea to do that to me.


Sounds like you didn’t have anyone you could trust and felt pretty trapped in doing anything about it. That’s such a huge problem. It boggles me how, if we can say this is bad, and so many people have had something like this happen, why is it still so hard to find support?


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Ock said:


> I didn't "handle" it. I was just a "weird" loner, and no one would have confronted them for me, and I didn't want to confront them because I didn't want them to change their mind. Also, if I spoke up I'd probably just be laughed at because I was a guy, or maybe other boys would've got the same idea to do that to me.


I had a hard time in school, dealing with sexual harassment too. But I think what you describe is way scarier.

I tried to ignore people in school and it's hard to say if it really worked--all I can say is I was happier to be able to carry pepperspray as an adult.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

WickerDeer said:


> I had a hard time in school, dealing with sexual harassment too. But I think what you describe is way scarier.
> 
> I tried to ignore people in school and it's hard to say if it really worked--all I can say is I was happier to be able to carry pepperspray as an adult.
> 
> ...


Yeah, even if those guys that said that to you were just joking around, it was still extremely insensitive considering you were all by your lonesome with them. What were you to think?

After hearing those boys when I was in 8th grade, it was always in the back of my mind for years that boys could rape me. I was often sexually harassed by boys. I was strangely a male target for that for a few reasons. But I feel like I'm not a target any more, nor have been for a long time.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Ock said:


> Yeah, even if those guys that said that to you were just joking around, it was still extremely insensitive considering you were all by your lonesome with them. What were you to think?
> 
> After hearing those boys when I was in 8th grade, it was always in the back of my mind for years that boys could rape me. I was often sexually harassed by boys. I was strangely a male target for that for a few reasons. But I feel like I'm not a target any more, nor have been for a long time.


As I have gotten older, incidents have become fewer and far between. For me, a lot of that may have to do with establishing stable and healthy social connections as I’ve gained independence, confidence, and experience - leaving behind relationships with abusive people who brought toxic situations into my life and strengthening bonds with those that have proven to be trustworthy and kind.

I think the last time I was threatened with sexual assault was about ten years ago (in my mid twenties), thankfully. I feel pretty grateful for that.


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## CharlieWex (Nov 16, 2020)

I think you just need to be with your significant other as much as possible.


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## Samael1 (Mar 4, 2021)

Not even going to touch the curfew topic, as it's ludicrous that sheep continue to learn nothing from history. The media has propagated so much gender/racial/sexual identity division and now there's politically mandated isolation policies further breaking up our brilliantly orchestrated fractured multi-partisan western psyche, but everybody's too caught up in their groupthink division of "us vs them" to even recognize the implications.
Panem et circenses has become synonymous with divide et impera.



Six said:


> BECAUSE. IT'S. WEIRD.
> 
> You're asking me to enter the headspace: *Of a rapist.*
> 
> ...



I will however reply to this, as it inspires one of my trademark multi-faceted nerdy rambles that people are always SOOOOO fond of! (I will acknowledge no response that does not come from Six, somebody with a degree relevant to pertinent subjects, or an IQ over 130--skip straight to scapegoating, censoring and banning; I will not humor trolling, harrassment or invalidation from those unequipped to even comprehend what they are contesting)

_cough_
Anyway!
Couple thoughts come immediately to mind.
First, in my early twenties a girl had me tie her up, and I was revolted at it. As you said, the concept of emulating rapist psychology disgusted me, and likewise, it perverted my personal ideals of relationship dynamics. For reference, in socioncs LIE is categorized as having a "victim" romance style




__





Socionics Romance-styles







www.sociotype.com




I personally vie for equilibrium in relationships, and I prefer sex to be dynamic--if I'm always the dominant party, it's boring, and I am not psychologically capable of always being submissive. As part of this psychology, somebody who wants to be disgraced and demeaned, or wants to disgrace or demean me, is fucking up my ideals of a mutual syzygy that vacilates close to the balance point. I'm typically described as "aggressive," but there is a world of difference to my mind between agressive and abusive.

That said, most of the women I've known have had "dom/sub" preferences and wanted a clear UNequal dynamic and seem to crave an abusive dynamic. An example being the OP topic in just how many women have given explanations for why they like to be choked, and the adjectives of "dominant," "masculine," etc. are featured praisingly more often than erotic terms of physical pleasure.
None of them mention they enjoy oral sex because a man is so dominating and masculine while squeezed between her thighs.


Now to look at it from a less civilized perspective:
As an adolescent, my friend's sister was fond of teasing me sexually. Being a hormonally charged teenager with all kinds of issues, I tended to get very rough with her, enough so that I later deeply regretted it. While I would never resort to rape, the behaviour could be deemed "rapey."
Later still, I realized that if this was in the least bit unwanted, the behaviour that provoked it would have desisted. She continued flashing me and shaking her ass at me because she wanted the same aggressive reaction.

Now the word "rapey" inspires me to take a social perspective:
Watch old bond movies. Older women still regard Sean Connery as a sex symbol. Despite the feminist stereotype of James Bond being a male fantasy (certainly not to this male!) I've actually known more women attracted to that male image than men. This is a character who was not just rough with women in general, but outright raped female villains. Sometimes converting them in the process! (WTFMUCH?!)
Likewise, Harrison Ford. See Blade Runner. It's strange that most men I know see this as rape (something they'd have to be able to identify, as the line between pleasing a woman and getting raped in prison is as thin as whether or not she's had anything to drink before inviting you in), while many women (though perhaps not younger generations; can't attest to this) find it extremely sexy. Like, stop the movie and take me now sexy.

And while I'm on cinema as art imitating lust, in jidaigeki a man seducing a woman is always, invariably portrayed, whether it is consensual, forced, paid, or ambiguous, and no matter the age and class of either participant, as him grabbing her by the shoulders and shoving her roughly to the ground. Admittedly, my studies in sex psychology never delved into when kissing was introduced to Japan, but cinematic depictions of old times always treat of sex the same way.


Now to look at it from a bestial perspective:






Incidentally, my sister owns ducks. All male, so it's mostly a trio of enneagram 8s where two of them shun one of them until that one kicks one of their asses a couple weeks later, and then that one gets shunned.
But for the sex topic, she has chickens. And as of recently, roosters.
I house-sat for her over the weekend, and despite the stories about chicken rape, I was shocked at just how brutal they can be.
Rooster jumps on a chickens back, full weight on a creature half his size, clamps down on the back of her neck and forces her flat into the dirt.
I threw down my book and exclaimed, "Jesus, Bruster, you're worse than me!" and chased him off. (hmm... most women like to be bitten, so maybe if I'm ever stupid enough to let a female into my life again I should try jumping on her spine? )
I then spent the next four hours literally cock blocking to protect the chicks from the fowl rapist. Some of them have large bald patches this is such a regual occurrence.

Also, I remember an animal documentary years back about some kind of animal, deer, elk, antelope, whatever, where it's common for the female to find some low area to hide that a male's antler's won't allow passage. Evidently she'll hide while the bucks fight over who gets to rape her, loser slinks off, winner waits around until she gets hungry enough to come out and just say, "yeah, whatever, just get it over with already, _eyeroll_."


Now, to address the natural assumptions all this is gendered (a popular social assumption I should probably let stand as it's the only thing that would save this post from censorship), all we need do is look to gender neutral social structures to see these instinctual traits are atavistically present, but not gender specific.
In prisons, rape is common, certain people establish harems, certain people become "bitches," and the hierarchy is extremely similar to the "pecking order" found in poultry.
Think I'm just talking about male prisons? _waggles finger_
Female prisons demonstrate the exact same social trends of sexual exploitation despite the dearth of penises.
Curious, isn't it, that outside criminal society, sororites, a haven for priveleged females, sexual assault and predation are more common than in military hazing rites?

And I won't even bother adding classic amazon tropes of "toxic masculinity" in idealized female cultures, as talking about Callisto and Gabrielle would destroy any credibility.  (yeah yeah, I'm still a man, after all--so why was the show so popular to the lesbian community? Could it be that sexuality, and even sexual dysfunction, is common to---everybody?!)

And to finish with a personal judgement, since that was deliberately a loose collection of examples for others to cobble together to form their own insight into patterns across myriad stratums, I personally think that the biggest problem with humans is that we are, after all, just animals, but also that the difference between being a human being or an animal boils down to choice.


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## Six (Oct 14, 2019)

Samael1 said:


> Not even going to touch the curfew topic, as it's ludicrous that sheep continue to learn nothing from history. The media has propagated so much gender/racial/sexual identity division and now there's politically mandated isolation policies further breaking up our brilliantly orchestrated fractured multi-partisan western psyche, but everybody's too caught up in their groupthink division of "us vs them" to even recognize the implications.
> Panem et circenses has become synonymous with divide et impera.
> 
> 
> ...


The examples are fine but it's not the consistent themes I struggled with - it's empathising with a rapist. Inhabiting that mindset - and what's more - inhabiting the mindset of someone who wishes to be raped.

Now as it happens I've found a word which does allow me to understand which I'm going to keep secret because sometimes secrets are valuable.

But the implications of it are still unavoidable - it's still a sad state of affairs that the balance of things is so out of whack that this is such a prevalent fantasy.

But surf the kali yuga.


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## Samael1 (Mar 4, 2021)

Six said:


> The examples are fine but it's not the consistent themes I struggled with - it's empathising with a rapist. Inhabiting that mindset - and what's more - inhabiting the mindset of someone who wishes to be raped.



Jordan Peterson would say that you (and I) are "beta males" who have been socialized into being "nice guys" by envious resentful females who are insecure about their own femininity.
Suffice it to say, while the guy can be insightful with social and psychological trends, whenever he discusses gender roles it's clear why the lovely angelcat/Charity types him ESTJ.
It's especially funny when most "beta males" I've known could kick his ass with both legs tied behind somebody else's back. 

But some of his shit has merit, and on a related note, he discusses (as adopted from Jung and Nietzsche) the importance of "integrating the shadow." Namely, as illustrated in my previous post, the drive toward sexual outlet is an instinctual biological impulse. Even animals that are more socially focused than **** sapiens have no mores restricting sexuality (mounting and humping are important aspects of bonding in rabbits, for example).
While I likewise cannot generally empathize with rapist psychology, I technically can, because I've written a rape scene, and I go full immersion/empathy when in my characters. I think this goes hand in hand with the fact that most, normal people cannot empathize with murdering random people, and yet it's a common distraction for "blowing off steam" in open world games.

"The virtuous man contents himself with dreaming that which the wicked man does in actual life." - Sigmund Freud

This feels like very morally reprehensible advice, because it's sometimes people who unrepress drives wind up indulging them, but I've also found that is healthier at an earlier age than them, like Fenrir, breaking free spontaneously late in life...
But I agree with Peterson on "integrating the shadow" and finding the darkest parts of oneself, learning what one is capable of, even if it's shocking and horrifying.

I had an INTP friend who made a point of exposing herself to books/movies that made her uncomfortable, because she said it contributed to growth, expanding her mind and better understanding herself.
I wholeheartedly support this.
Try reading Marquis de Sade or 50 Shades of Grey or whatever else common filth desperate housewives get off to, and try to empathize. Try to force yourself to understand the psychology that is "all too human" and question why you are averse to it. Don't just be content to be repulsed by something, but scrutinize what specific aspects of it compel those feelings of aversion.
It can be a very difficult, but very beneficial learning experience that really expands the mind and understanding of both other people and yourself.

An Edmund Dantess who finds his inner Count of Monte Cristo young can avoid the chateau d'if altogether.


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## ENFPathetic (Apr 3, 2018)

Rape fantasy is no closer to actual rape than play fighting is to actual fighting. In both cases, some people just need to learn how to play.


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

DOGSOUP said:


> hey do you think anyone here moves on with their life


I finally did and boy I did not see what I had coming. 

There is a wild wiki page about a woman who met up with a man to be fucked to death. Wife told me about it despite my protesting.


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

Wellsy said:


> I finally did and boy I did not see what I had coming.
> 
> There is a wild wiki page about a woman who met up with a man to be fucked to death. Wife told me about it despite my protesting.


so you decided in turn to grace us with this knowledge !


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

DOGSOUP said:


> so you decided in turn to grace us with this knowledge !


If I must suffer then I’m taking y’all with me!


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