# "Incels"



## lilysocks (Nov 7, 2012)

One of the interesting hallmarks -that seems to get missed - is the obsessively exclusive focus on sex and just sex; nothing else. Even the polemic about women's so called failures of depth, taste, etc, only seem to be defined as an issue 'because' they prevent the complainant from getting laid. 

This isn't poor me because I'm lonely or I'm insecure or life is hard or I don't have any friends. It's all about docking their dicks. And pretty much nothing else. 

This in itself seems a bit off kilter to me. Yes I know; men plus hormones plus youth. I still stand by this though - precisely because every unpartnered man on the planet _isn't_ obsessed about this near-mythologized notion of sex, as something that supposedly has all this additional meaning tied in to it. The incel content I've seen does seem to make almost a fetish of it, in the literal anthropologist's sense of 'fetish'. 

That right there makes me suspect that all/any discourse about addressing an assumed underlying emotional problem might be aimed at a mark that is not even there. _Possibly_ all these young men are using 'sex' as a macho-flavoured code word for what they actually want. But I don't think so somehow. Social connection on various levels isn't that hard to come by. And I've known men who did really see sex as a shorthand for various emotional needs - acceptance, affection, security, status, to name just a few. It didn't cripple their capacity to interact 'normally' with women or distort their perception of us, when everyone had their clothes on. 

Definitely part of growing up is dealing with ideas like:

much/most of life is lived alone, whether you're partnered or not.
the massively overwhelming majority of your gender-of-choice are not going to sleep with you.
-the massive majority of _most_ people's time is spent not having sex
- and it's fine. 

So clearly something is wrong. But the roots of the fetish. ... Dunno.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

tanstaafl28 said:


> It sounds to me like a few horny boys who want to have sex but have no idea how to get it. They don't seem to want or know how to take the time or make the effort to learn how to talk to a woman, let alone have sex with them. Instead of blaming themselves for their lack of action, they blame everyone else, including the women.


They do blame themselves at least at first, but at the same time that self blame is then turned into outwards rage by the community. As well as apologists that think they're just misunderstood little boys. In essence they're just sexually frustrated violent men. That's it. There's not much else there after having spent enough time with other extremists.


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## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

I mostly blame the economy for crippling young people and not having much support frameworks in place.
I know I've thrown away the idea I'll be able to have a wife or kids.
The desire for sex remains while a desire for love and companionship has just dwindled into disillusionment and no real hope.
Some people direct their frustrations in the wrong directions unfortunately.

I can't help but notice the similar phenomenon of Hikkikomori in Japan, although that's expressed somewhat differently to incels in the west due to culture - seemingly less sex obsession but still comes from a main sense of worthlessness, pressure to succeed and a lack of connection within a highly competitive modern corporate societies that are deteriorating and leaving people behind.
Men and increasing amounts of women are retreating from that high-stress type of society. The west is beginning to realize this phenomenon is spreading here too.

People focus on the extreme incels to the extent it takes away from the issues at place that do need addressing.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

This whole_ ''incels are violent''_ thing is actually a fallacy. We're just focused on those who lost their minds and went on a shooting spree.

That being said, yes, they will develop misogynistic tendencies if their issues are not addressed. And like I said earlier, public speakers like Jordan Peterson who drill them that their woes are all because of this rise in feminism, doesn't help at all.

I actually think this current feminism wave is actually.....kind of annoying? As it's not so much a way to discuss women and equality but rather pushing a _''Men fucking suck!''_ agenda.

Problem is, I'm mature enough to understand where this sentiment stems from, whereas an incel sees it as validation to their own self-created misery.

The funny thing though, is that their hatred should be directed towards ''alpha'' or good looking men. Like if they're gonna go on a shooting spree, it should be in an all-male gym. But they're obviously too chicken shit to confront them with their tribal bicep tattoos and all so it probably feels safer to focus their hatred directly to hot women.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Hexigoon said:


> People focus on the extreme incels to the extent it takes away from the issues at place that do need addressing.


Unh. What are you talking about? There are literally GLOBAL anti-capitalist protests going on right now - which are precisely only happening in order to stop people from feeling alienated from the corporatized structure of the world. There are help lines, support groups, communities everywhere that are filled with empathic and kind individuals supporting one another. I would know, I'm in dozens myself. There are social movements happening to address massive global issues like hunger, joblessness, racism, transphobia - what have you. Things don't happen unless people fight for change too you know.

That's part and parcel of the incel problem too though. They don't even want to acknowledge or recognize what's being done or what exists for support because of this woe is me attitude and then it eventually morphs into violent misogyny (especially if a bunch of them get together in communities that glorify violence) because of a simple failure to move beyond and outside of oneself to see the world around oneself.



Stevester said:


> I actually think this current feminism wave is actually.....kind of annoying? As it's not so much a way to discuss women and equality but rather pushing a _''Men fucking suck!''_ agenda.


I would say that the majority of men - especially the ones who control the world and refuse to change because society is designed to benefit them and only them - do indeed suck. That's just a fact.


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## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

SilentScream said:


> Unh. What are you talking about? There are literally GLOBAL anti-capitalist protests going on right now - which are precisely only happening in order to stop people from feeling alienated from the corporatized structure of the world. There are help lines, support groups, communities everywhere that are filled with empathic and kind individuals supporting one another. I would know, I'm in dozens myself. There are social movements happening to address massive global issues like hunger, joblessness, racism, transphobia - what have you. Things don't happen unless people fight for change too you know.
> 
> That's part and parcel of the incel problem too though. They don't even want to acknowledge or recognize what's being done or what exists for support because of this woe is me attitude and then it eventually morphs into violent misogyny (especially if a bunch of them get together in communities that glorify violence) because of a simple failure to move beyond and outside of oneself to see the world around oneself.


Yeah? I'm not surprised any anti-capitalist protests would be happening based on what I said.
The system is inhospitable to poor people, which does include people who'd fall under the incel label. To try and help the alienated is to try and help these people as well.
People create their own support groups when they feel there's a lack of support offered in outside society. So of course people are lashing out at capitalism or other things. I'm just saying many other people choose to retreat inwards and slowly kill themselves instead.
And with incels in particular, their existence just gets vilified since people tend to only focus on that group's extremes. I do hate that the group was co-opted by a bunch of scumbags, and now it's harder to be taken seriously or not be viewed as some type of apologist for bad behaviour when talking about issues of sexual alienation and other similar problems that just so happen to be shared with bad people.


Incels or people who share a similar problem probably do seem all "woe is me," but if that's the view others are going to take towards whatever is causing them grief, then that's part of why they'll shut inwards or turn to anonymous online groups who --- while are often toxic ---- will at least give them the feeling like they're actually being listened to and empathized with to some degree. That can mean the difference for whether someone goes down a path of radicalization or not.


Besides, even if there are some good support groups out there (I don't doubt it), like with many males who suffer from depression and social anxiety, there's a tendency to want to completely avoid seeking emotional support and be vulnerable like that.
It's not necessarily unacknowledged. I know things like helplines exist, obviously.
Yet I've never felt any desire to use one, even when I've been on the edge of killing myself.
Often guys in a position like this won't get any good help unless someone like the parents or some other person cares enough about their well-being to act as a bridge towards getting them into support.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Hexigoon said:


> Yeah? I'm not surprised any anti-capitalist protests would be happening based on what I said.
> The system is inhospitable to poor people, which does include people who'd fall under the incel label. To try and help the alienated is to try and help these people as well.
> People create their own support groups when they feel there's a lack of support offered in outside society. So of course people are lashing out at capitalism. I'm just saying many other people choose to retreat inwards and slowly kill themselves instead.
> And with incels in particular, their existence just gets vilified since people tend to focus on the group's extremes. I do hate that the group was co-opted by a bunch of scumbags, and now it's harder to be taken seriously or not be viewed as some type of apologist for bad behaviour when talking about issues of sexual alienation and other similar problems that just so happen to be shared with bad people.
> ...


You don't even realize how much you proved my point in your post about how even when there's help out there, incel types simply either ignore it, refuse it, reject it, or demand that people literally bend over to _force _help upon them. That might work for some people, sure and some peopel do get that. 

At the same time, I've also seen incel types _literally_ victimize, bully, harass and abuse people who are genuinely interested in helping them and did try to "force" their help. I've experienced it as well. You can't force help on some people at all because they tend to have a preconceived notion of what help they want, and even a slight deviation from that makes them think absolutely nothing is being done. Some people are just straight up abusers and use their victimization to constantly, constantly abuse/harass others and a lot of them end up in incel groups and when that sort of negative abusive energy and group think collide, you have extremism.


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## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

SilentScream said:


> You don't even realize how much you proved my point in your post about how even when there's help out there, incel types simply either ignore it, refuse it, reject it, or demand that people literally bend over to _force _help upon them. That might work for some people, sure and some peopel do get that.
> 
> At the same time, I've also seen incel types _literally_ victimize, bully, harass and abuse people who are genuinely interested in helping them and did try to "force" their help. I've experienced it as well. You can't force help on some people at all because they tend to have a preconceived notion of what help they want, and even a slight deviation from that makes them think absolutely nothing is being done. Some people are just straight up abusers and use their victimization to constantly, constantly abuse/harass others and a lot of them end up in incel groups and when that sort of negative abusive energy and group think collide, you have extremism.


Because I'm not even trying to disprove your point on that. 
I'm trying to explain why people self-isolate and may not seek help that may be out there beyond some toxic internet forums.

I'm sure you have seen that. I have too.
Some people are bad, some people can't be helped, sure. It's not like you're going to get a disagreement with me on that. But I'd rather focus on the people who can be helped. I'd like to think I can be helped anyway.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Hexigoon said:


> But I'd rather focus on the people who can be helped. I'd like to think I can be helped anyway.


You have your focus. I have mine. 

Pretty sure potential victims of violent crimes by insular groups that can be and should be deplatformed - at the very least - will save lives. 

A lot of incels that are coming out of those groups have also endorsed this idea that those groups have a violent element to them which needs addressing. It can't be left alone.


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## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

SilentScream said:


> You have your focus. I have mine.
> 
> Pretty sure potential victims of violent crimes by insular groups that can be and should be deplatformed - at the very least - will save lives.
> 
> A lot of incels that are coming out of those groups have also endorsed this idea that those groups have a violent element to them which needs addressing. It can't be left alone.


Sure it should be addressed, but I don't know what deplatforming will accomplish really. It's not going to stop incels from existing, moving elsewhere or feeling the way they do, nor take away an actual violent person's tendencies.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Hexigoon said:


> Sure it should be addressed, but I don't know what deplatforming will achieve exactly. It's not going to stop incels from existing or feeling the way they do, or take away an actual violent person's tendencies.


No, but it could prevent those who may not be inspired to violence be inspired.

It's also not just about physical violence and murders. I dunno if you've infiltrated incel groups or not, but based on my research, they don't just promote physical violence (which is obviously the worst), but also promote an ideological framework that is deeply rooted in violent misogyny - where they then go out and act out their rage against women in their immediate vicinity ... then post back on the incel forums for appreciation and validation. They get their dopamine from becoming violent misogynists when initially it was just not being able to have sex.

The transformation happens within the groups. You deplatform all incel groups, and you reduce this sort of thing happening.

Would you argue against deplatforming any other group that has a violence problem? What about the KKK? Taliban? Anti-abortion groups - which have a serious violence problem as well? What is wrong with deplatforming?


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## ImpossibleHunt (May 30, 2020)

SilentScream said:


> No, but it could prevent those who may not be inspired to violence be inspired.
> 
> It's also not just about physical violence and murders. I dunno if you've infiltrated incel groups or not, but based on my research, they don't just promote physical violence (which is obviously the worst), but also promote an ideological framework that is deeply rooted in violent misogyny - where they then go out and act out their rage against women in their immediate vicinity ... then post back on the incel forums for appreciation and validation. They get their dopamine from becoming violent misogynists when initially it was just not being able to have sex.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't deplatform those groups either, unless they are inciting violence or committing verifiable crimes. It has to be on a case by case basis, not based on a ideological framework.

The Taliban is a political group that regularly incites and commits violence in the name of political and religious ideals. Deplatforming them is sensible.
The KKK is largely a redundant group. Most of the time they are just wallowing in self-pity, and while they display racism, it is something people can just ignore. That's how they lose their power, when people don't care anymore. Racism isn't a crime (except in cases such as employment, or scenarios similar to that), and unless they are planning to commit violence, they shouldn't be banned either. This isn't the 19th century anymore. People should be able to decide whether to hear them out or not.
Most Anti-abortion groups are not violent. It depends which one you are talking about, as generalizing all of them is unfair. Are you talking about the Army of God attack in 1982? If that happened today and they were inciting violence, then I would argue that they should be deplatformed. But if you categorizing anti-abortion groups as having a "violence problem", when almost all of the attacks were committed by singular individuals (who were swiftly punished by the law after being caught), I don't think anti-abortion groups should be deplatformed on that principle alone.

I guess what I am trying to say is that you can't control what people think. Your argument is pretty flimsy, and can be bent to serve any agenda. By your criteria, I can say that Black Lives Matter (a group I believe you probably support based on your signature, and your description) should be deplatformed because of the riots. Of course, I know that BLM do not support the riots (at least openly), but because certain individuals used the situation to steal, loot, and commit violence; by your standard Black Lives Matter should be held accountable.
I think it's a pretty juvenile way of thinking. I don't deny that you probably have good intentions, but your agumentation does not allow peaceful discourse to happen. It will just divide people into groups based on ideology, and then they will tar and feather each other until they don't know the other side is made up of actual human beings. I believe that this methodology is largely the reason why society is getting worse, rather than better.

Ideologies don't go away because they are deplatformed. If anything, you'll just make them even angrier. You will justify their claims that they are being pushed away from society, and their ideological framework will just sprout somewhere else, and with a lot more movement behind it. Deplatforming doesn't solve the issue.

Instead, if you try to understand someone else's position and point of view before they lock themselves inside an echo chamber, you might be able to see a change in behaviour before any crimes occur. But that is just my prediction.


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## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

SilentScream said:


> No, but it could prevent those who may not be inspired to violence be inspired.
> 
> It's also not just about physical violence and murders. I dunno if you've infiltrated incel groups or not, but based on my research, they don't just promote physical violence (which is obviously the worst), but also promote an ideological framework that is deeply rooted in violent misogyny - where they then go out and act out their rage against women in their immediate vicinity ... then post back on the incel forums for appreciation and validation. They get their dopamine from becoming violent misogynists when initially it was just not being able to have sex.
> 
> ...


Well if someone actually goes out and commits harassment then I'm all for them getting arrested.

I'm not a big fan of cancel culture or deplatforming typically. I can envision a scenario where it could be turned around and used against me or the left, so I'm cautious about such uses of power. I'd rather bad ideals be de-legitimized through making better arguments and making society improve its socioeconomic systems so people will feel less reasons to be hateful or even violent.

I can understand banning certain incel groups or people who frequently allow or advocate violence or harassment (goes for any group really), but I'm certainly not for deplatforming all incel groups as some all-encompassing rule. That's just authoritarian. Trying to shut people up you don't like and push their issues under the rug as if they don't exist anymore because you removed a platform. It doesn't help things to further alienate an already alienated group of people.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

I think some of the incels may have a problem with rigid thinking--or rigid thinking could make people more vulnerable to a group like incels. Maybe other mental health issues as well like depression.

People like this could benefit most from getting therapy or counseling specifically designed to help them learn how to socialize better (and all the incels could probably do with some cognitive behavioral therapy), but the nature of the incel group perpetuates isolation because instead of encouraging people to seek help it feeds them the same negative and flawed ideas that keep them self-isolating (and avoiding practicing or improving their social skills--or getting alternate perspectives from outside the incel community).

Then the sexism adds another layer of perpetuation and self-defeat, as it alienates them further from having any kind of normal interaction with women and non-sexists, and increasing the chances that those interactions will be negative.

I think this video was already shared by another member before, but I think it's well made.





It seems like a toxic community.

And it attracts needy people who end up suffering from its influence. It's a terrible influence and I feel bad for a lot of incels for this reason.


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## strawberryLola (Sep 19, 2010)

I'm not familiar with the term, but if it's associated with PUA, like think-tanks, they had a sole interest to create division between the sexes, and at the same time profit from their own sub-communities.

There was a lot of misinformation perpetuated I remember back in the late 90s when PUA started gaining momentum, which seems to have also influenced this type of community, which is essentially male chauvinism.

Neil Strauss was one of the founding leaders (and his books were very popular- he even had it dubbed in a very highly masculine voice that narrated tips on how to treat women like cattle). I can see why most, if not all women find him repulsive (his lady is likely only with him for his money- instead of using the term incel to describe PUA culture, I would say they were plain sexist, and the attitude it perpetuated truly has destroyed many potentially amazing relationships, especially among st the millennial age group).

I avoid dating altogether, because of PUA (male violence on female dating), and if incels are a byproduct of it, I don't blame the majority of women who avoid dating either _because of it_. It is highly toxic, demeaning, offensive, and something to the nature and byproduct of hateful propaganda.

Ladies Beware:













...And guys too. Dating isn't that complicated, and toss out the book _The Rules_ (female equivalent of incels? they're annoying).


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## KasKas19 (Jul 29, 2017)

I have sympathy from incels who can introspect, but most are awful. Take a look at incel.net.


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## Skimt (May 24, 2020)

For the record, I would like to point out that the Asian girl in the video looks like an absolute nutter in comparison. The way she's strolled in with a notepad looking like she's a professional conducting an interview, only to roll her eyes at everything he says, in an attempt to sway a perceived audience with her body language. She probably went home that day mentally affixing this young lad central to her generalized view of white men whom she thinks are all things wrong with the world. Intolerant and judgmental, sympathetic without justification, lacking the introspective qualities of her counterpart. Clearly, he's a moron, but she's an even bigger moron, and a detriment to her own cause is what I'm saying. I hope these two opposing groups can one day be tossed unto an island together, where they must eat each other to stay alive. I would watch that over Robinson Crusoe.


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## lilysocks (Nov 7, 2012)

Hexigoon said:


> Sure it should be addressed, but I don't know what deplatforming will accomplish really.


So... Going back to my point about shared psychosis. The clinical 'cure' is to separate the parties. The 'donor' might never improve - IDK about that side of it. But the recipient frequently does. It's literally a transmitted condition. 

_shrug_ physical distancing cuts down the chances for the coronavirus to find new hosts. Same thing. The sickness isn't the celibacy. That isn't going to vanish. The fixable part of the picture is the demonstrably delusional views about both why they are celibate and what should be done to fix it.


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## daleks_exterminate (Jul 22, 2013)

I don't know. I used to have such laid out ideas on this. Then, one of my closest friends (who I met through my husband but became really close with also) opened up to me that he used to have a lot of misogynistic ideas because of reading incel stuff (which began as a curiosity). He got a pretty negative world view, and very depressed and believed the worst about people. And like it wasn't great.

He doesn't believe these things anymore, but some dogmatic things are difficult to shake off. It's really cult like in some of its methods (like having people brainwash themselves).

It's been years and he's still working through some of the ideologies. And apparently our friendship has been pretty positive in his life.

It's a bit odd as he's conventionally attractive and doesn't have an issue dating or anything.

so all of that to say: I think a lot of the ideology is harmful. That doesn't make someone falling for it a bad person though. Still, people are responsible for their actions and emotions. We probably wouldn't have been such good friends if we met at the height of it, and that's quite sad because it's someone I very much want in my and my husband's life forever.


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## strawberryLola (Sep 19, 2010)

A Great analysis:





I wasn't too familiar with the term, but I noticed (especially amongst the younger guys) a level of "commanding sex."

It's a subculture, and living out here in SoCal, I definitely have run across a few. They act very entitled. First they strike up a conversation (very forced), and an uncharming appeal, and then they get very disrespectful if you don't show a level of interest, immediately.

Incel is an actual group of young men and women who truly think sex is a God given right to them (that is a mental disorder right there). You can't go around demanding/commanding sex, and covertly/overtly so. That is rapist mentality.


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## Electra (Oct 24, 2014)

Skimt said:


> There's nothing that hints towards ignorance in any of his statements. He merely holds a quaint Christian traditionalist view of women.


Pssssj!! He doesn't think wimmen should be leaders. Our prime minister does a pretty fine job. He has just probably never met one. And the Bible is out of date. Seems very ignorant to me at least.


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## ENFPathetic (Apr 3, 2018)

Electra said:


> Pssssj!! He doesn't think wimmen should be leaders. Our prime minister does a pretty fine job. He has just probably never met one. And the Bible is out of date. Seems very ignorant to me at least.
> 
> View attachment 882522


I don't know about your prime minister, but there has definitely been wise and capable female leaders in the past. The obvious one that comes to mind is the Queen of Sheba. It's objectively incorrect to say that women cannot make good leaders.

However I would have agree that women in general don't make effective leaders of a nation. History attests to it. Female led societies don't survive for very long.


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## Electra (Oct 24, 2014)

ENFPathetic said:


> I don't know about your prime minister, but there has definitely been wise and capable female leaders in the past. The obvious one that comes to mind is the Queen of Sheba. It's objectively incorrect to say that women cannot make good leaders.
> 
> However I would have agree that women in general don't make effective leaders of a nation. History attests to it. Female led societies don't survive for very long.


Meh! We are just going to have to agree to disagree, but I will give you ʰᵃˡᶠ ᵃ ᵖᵒⁱⁿᵗ for the first part of your text.


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## ENFPathetic (Apr 3, 2018)

Electra said:


> Meh! We are just going to have to agree to disagree, but I will give you ʰᵃˡᶠ ᵃ ᵖᵒⁱⁿᵗ for the first part of your text.


That's just your Ne talking. I demand a full point.


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## Electra (Oct 24, 2014)

ENFPathetic said:


> That's just your Ne talking. I demand a full point.


Oh I will...tomorrow. 🥱😴


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## JimT (May 31, 2010)

I don't know much about incels. But I got the sense over time that there were a lot of guys with Asperger's (or just generally on the spectrum) among the incel crowd. Hence a sense of "fixation" on how they approach sex and gender issues, and the sense of grumpiness/entitlement among incels.

As such, I tend to pity those guys more than anything. Obviously there are _some_ kind of psychological issues there.

And usually incels are not a big social concern; they keep to themselves for the most part. It's just that their websites do tend to lean toward misogynist overtones, and the woke crowd simply can't forgive that. And then once in a blue moon a self-declared incel goes off the deep end and commits a violent act, providing justification for a lot of press articles on the dangers of incel-dom.

But most times they seem to be all bark and no bite. IOW, mainly to be pitied, in my opinion.


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## ENFPathetic (Apr 3, 2018)

Electra said:


> Oh I will...tomorrow. 🥱😴




Night owl is the wisest owl. Sweet dreams.


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## Optimouse (Nov 8, 2012)

I think it's a good point, last time I heard there is a high correlation of lack of fathers and how much one does well in life. That's a problem that I think if it's reduced it could make things better for next generations.

Now, not all incels are lacking fathers (there are a lot of other variables, usually it's a mental complex imho), and simple advices like "get a shower and go to the gym bro" just don't work with them (of course sometimes there might be resistance to even do these things, possible lack of motivation, depression,. or they might have done it once and they assume you get laid by doing it once so they stopped). Another advice I think makes more sense to me is, actually stop thinking about women all the time, do something else that you like, a hobby, something personal, even going to the gym but because you like it or for yourself, not with the goal of attracting female. Find something natural that you like and dedicate yourself and unconnected with the goal of mating. But I know, people who tried to say that to incels, they received negativity or some incels said "but I tried that, it didn't work" and returned back to their obsession. For some, nothing else makes sense than being with a woman. I don't understand it, because I am also a loner without a girlfriend, but my path is quite on the other side, focusing on my special interests and not giving a fuck. But I know, no matter how you say to the incels "do this or that and all your problems will be fixed", I know and understand that they are in a mental block and it's not gonna help. Their perspective is different than my perspective as a loner. And I try to understand this and just leave them alone. It's easy to propose advices when one is not in their state of mind.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

I don't think the problem is with the individual incels (at least my problem isn't really). It's with the toxic incel community and the propaganda it becomes, because it just spread limiting and dangerous beliefs.

I sound like a broken record.

I was touched by AOC's speech about bigotry, as I think it goes beyond the incel groups and generally seems to target isolated young men...isolated people are generally easier to brainwash into a cult or abusive environment, and we have an increasingly isolated culture? With the internet and technology...

I'm not really sure how to feel about her suggestion, but I think it's good she at least approached this with an original idea.

Of course she gets more hatred from the right than really anyone else...so it's not like caring about people ever earned her any respect from the groups we're talking about.


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

SgtPepper said:


> The term "incel" has always been something I've sorta shrugged off, even today, as a funny label - an oversimplified definition/tag for a much bigger and complex issue affecting westernized or developed nations. I still think it's still a bit early to really define cause-and-effect of it all. In my opinion, at this stage it would sorta be like grabbing a hold of the tail and talking about the tail as if were the entire animal. What are your opinions on the term, origins, and effect of this phenomena in developed nations? What does it signify and where do you think it comes from? How has your opinion on the topic changed if at all?


Incel = a member of an online community of young men who consider themselves unable to attract women sexually, typically associated with views that are hostile towards women and men who are sexually active.

Incel = a person (usually a man) who regards himself or herself as being involuntarily celibate and typically expresses extreme resentment and hostility toward those who are sexually active.

I can understand where the resentment and frustration is coming from. Just like some average people are resentful and frustrated towards the rich, incels are likewise resentful and frustrated towards something they can have. However, in both cases, hostility toward those who are better than you in this regard is sort of pointless. It won't help you achieve anything. That's how incels stay incels.

In a way, incels are the counterpart of women who go for toxic men that always treat them poorly and they end up getting screwed in the relationship leading to the realization that "all men are the same", "all men are pigs", etc.

Incel likely end up in friendzone because their dating strategy is to be nice, non-threatening, and therefore boring; thinking that if they show enough care, that if they simp enough, then the woman will finally see how much they care about them and eventually like them. It's essentially begging, it's not working. It's like having a company and your PR or marketting strategy for selling your product is "please, buy me, I'm begging you", that's not how you make people by your product. Instead, you advertise yourself as a good product, as a product the other would like to have, that you have something they do not have and desperately need, that's how you sell your product.

In terms of dating, that would be the equivalent of a dating strategy based on being friendly, teasing them a little, make them laugh, and be a bit unpredictable at all times. That's how you actually treat a woman be playfully teasing/interesting, make them laugh. Market yourself as a value guy, someone they have to gain from, not as a low value guy that would be basically begging them to give them value. You're not attracted to a beggar on the street, you give him money out of mercy, but a relationship doesn't work with mercy.

Basically, market yourself as a cool guy, not as a guy who is desperate for her and is basically begging for her.

And because their dating strategy is to be nice, non-threatening, and therefore boring comebined with never showing any actual interest towards the woman, they innevitably end up in friendzone. Friendzone is a psychological place in which you find yourself trapped when you feel something towards someone who considers you as a friend. But girls don't put you in friendzone, you put yourself in friendzone.

Imagine you like a girl A and you want to seduce her, you want to talk to her, what do you say? Without thinking, what do you say? You tell her your name, you compliment her, you flirt with her, you're funny and propose to go out.

Imagine you don't like a girl B and you don't want to seduce her, you like her but like her friendly, you want to be friends, what do you say? You don't compliment her, you aren't ambigous, like a friend.

And with the girl that friendzoned you, did you behave with that girl like with girl A or girl B? B. She didn't friendzone you, you friendzoned yourself. Friendzone is a psychological place in which you put yourself when you behave like a friend with the person you like because you don't have the courage to behave otherwise.

To get rid of the friendzone you need courage, embrace behavior A instead of behavior B. Detail every account, flirt with other people, be mysterious. If this person continues to consider you as a friend after all these steps, get rid of her, let her go. This person doesn't deserve you.

If she wants to meet, you can say "no, because I'm seeing with someone", she is not your priority. Don't make yourself always available. If she says "why didn't you tell me?" you can say "why should I tell you? there are many things you don't know about me". If you see that she still doesn't like you, you can even be frank and tell her "I never considered you as a friend" and let her go.

If you ever in doubt, ask the girl out. The logic being that she either says yes and it's great, or she says no and you have your answer.

One of the first things that you need to know about friendzone, is that you have to be honest with her, if you know a woman that you like and you start behaving like a friend with her, like you would be her friend, it's absolutely normal that you are going to end up being her friend, if you don't make your intentions known from the start.

It's like you like a girl and go talk to her and after 2 hours after you started talking she is talking about you about her dog, that you have no business with and don't even care about. Why? Becuase you went and started being friendly with her "hi, I'm Joe, I came to know you better, how are you doing, where do you study? oh, me too" you behave very friendly. You can't be if you want to be with a girl be friend with her, you have to show her in a way or another that you like her, that you are attracted to her, interested in her, that it's a man to woman conversation, you have to make your intentions known.

Don't confuse this with going to her and doing 1.000 compliments. "Wow, you are so beautiful", "I want you so much", because this way you're going to end up in the desperate person section, which you don't want to be. The only thing you have to do and this is very important is to make your intentions known from the start. Like "I have seen you, I like you a lot, I'm X, I would like to talk", even if you're going to talk like a friend with her, and you're going to be open like a friend with her, you are going to make your intentions clear.

If you go, and behave like a friend, and never make your intentions known, you will only get into the friendzone. And why are you doing this? why are you behaving like a friend? why you get into friendzone? Because you know a girl that you like, but you don't have the courage to go and tell her that you like her, or show her that you like her through your actions. No, you instead, behave like a friend, and both of you stay there and behave like friends. And you do this and it happens until 2 week passes, one months, one year, and you behave like a friend, until the moment when you feel comfortable to tell her.

And at a certain point you wake up like that "you know, I like you" and of course that the girl is going to be shocked "wow, how do you like me because we were friends, we were friends and now you come and say you like me?", she will feel betrayed, lied to, cheated, because if you behave like a friend with her hoping that she will like you back she will fall in love with you, it's not going to happen. She is going to like a man and is going to fall in love with a man that she feels she has a connection and an attraction from the beginning.

It's not going to help you if you go and behave like a friend then after some time get out of there. She is going to be very confused, "what's with you? why are you coming and telling me these things? you were my friend, now what?".

Now, that's about how to not get into friendzone, as for how to get out of friendzone. Assuming, that you never had the courage to tell her that you like her, you never had the courage to show this to her through your actions, you talked and you got along and now you're in friendzone. What to do to get out of friendzone?

Considering that you are friends, because that's what friendzone means, it means that there are certain interests that she has in you as a friend, because that's why you're friends. Such as: either you're very funny, you're a funny guy, you're her couch psychologist and always listen to her when she has a problem, either you make her various services and attentions like getting her with the car somewhere or do various things for her. You get it? Reasons why she is interested to talk to you. She has a reason, she's not friend with you just like that for the sake of the idea of friendship. No, there has to be an exhcange in the specific relationship. 

And in the specific relationship you offer her something: attention, services, gestures, you offer her something there. Identify those things that you are doing, identify that behavior that you have and she sees it as being "friendly". That you talk to her for long hours, that you go with her somewhere, that you take care of her. See what is the behavior.

A lot of people would say to have courage and tell her how you feel "if you want to get out of friendzone, you break off the relationship with her and tell her that you want to be with her", not necessarly. If you go and break the connection with her it will only create a rift and tension between you 2. What you have to do instead is identify the behavior that you have with her, and start gradually lowering it. When I say gradually I'm not saying 1 year, I'm saying 1 week or 1 month, like that.

Meaning, stop behaving with her the way you used to behave with her, and introduce other behaviors you have. Behaviors that show that you like her, behaviors that show you off as being a man and dominant and decisive, it's very important to do these things. I'm not saying to make a sudden drift, like if you were talking with her for days at the phone, suddenly stop talking to her for 3 days and then call her and say "you know, I like you and want to go out", she will be shocked.

You identify the behavior that you normally have with her as a friend and then you start lowering it and slowly you eliminate it, while on the other side you introduce other behaviors that you have that show that you are interested in her and that you are masculine, that you are a man, a man that she wants to be with, a man she desires.

How to be more masculine or attractive? There are tons of advice on this, you can start by being a man, dominant and decisive, to take and drive control of the conversation and interaction. But without being rude or rash or unaware of her feelings. You're the driver but also look out at the passengers. You can start by improving your looks, while we are born with different genetics, there's nothing stopping you from developing a sense of style. And personality-wise, you can start by being charismatic, having a magnetic personality.

Remember, just like the PR or marketting product, the idea is that you are valueable, she wants you. You don't beg for it, you show her what you are, and you show her you are interested in her, and then you let her decide.


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## FreeKekistan (Mar 4, 2015)

Incels could be a byproduct of deficient upbringing. Either because of single parent family, lack of a father figure, the unrealistic constant bombardment of "you're the best" that some loser parents tend to tell their kids. I am excluding medical reasons here.

I heard the discussion where incels are demonized all the time. And even some dumb idiot named Ellen Pao, former Reddit CEO, asking tech companies to do something about incels. Ellen K. Pao on Twitter: "CEOs of big tech companies: You almost cert…

Do what? Put them into camps? Offer them state mandated prostitutes?

If anything, they do not need to be even more shamed for being incels. That's not gonna help them. And it's not like they want to be incels. I guess some classes or courses on how to not be an incel would go farther than making fun of them.

Don't be surprised if this culture creates this trend where is cool to mock incels and then one of them decides they had enough and starts chasing you or your kids down a school hallway with a gun. Because that has happened before. They need help to integrate in society, due to various causes, medical or not.


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