# Borderline Personality Disorder Survivor MBTI Statistics



## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

@Georgii 

You're the psych wiz, George. What do you think? :laughing:


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

> You think I should hold back out of pity? I don't care if the guy who pulls a knife on me has AIDs, I'm still going to defend myself, and if self defense involves hitting the guy who has a knife with a crowbar, then that's what I'll do. Your PC notions are cute, but in the end, they're ridiculously unrealistic. The real world isn't Barney's playground, dude.


Basically, because the real world isn't "Barney's playground" (seriously?) ... people should viciously shove back? Pull hair? Shank someone in the park restroom? I'm glad modern sensibilities mean a reversion to an eye-for-an-eye.

How are my notions PC? Because I advocate on behalf of people with mental illness? Because I advocate understanding and education? Because I advocate treatment? Because I advocate not repeating vicious cycles?

I don't think you should hold back out of pity. Pity helps no one with mental illness or disorders. Did you not read what I said previously about pity and mental illness? Perhaps my posts went into TL;DR territory because you didn't care to read what I said? So no, don't hold back out of pity. I think you should hold back from such behavior because it isn't healthy for anyone in the picture.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

@Sheppard - Thank you for an interesting forum topic, and I'm sorry I completely and utterly derailed it!


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## Sheppard (Jul 4, 2011)

@*koalaroo *

(I always forget to add these at things)

You made some interesting points that I will consider. I'm going to let them bubble in the back of my head for a little while and see what comes out of it. In the meantime, though, I think there's something else worth considering. What you're asking.

I mean, this is a thread about people who have been through abuse from boarderline personalities in particular, right? I did mean to give context in order to facilitate understanding of my motivation, not to hijack.

I mean, take the case in Toronto going on right now. (Don't read up on it if you haven't heard of it, trust me on that). You wouldn't tell the guy who was found locked up in a closet that, really, psychopathic sexual sadists with narcissistic personality disorder are really deserving of compassion, too. Even if it were true, you seem educated, you know that there's a purpose to defense reactions, and a causality to our healthy emotions. My own motivation that eventually led me to ever having found this place here, and for reading what I could about all kinds of predators is a defense reaction. I was not able to tell something was wrong for 10 years, so, what I do is educate myself as much as possible in order to hopefully spot it the next time around so I can avoid a repeat. And also to identify my own behaviors as best as I can so I can change myself in ways that make me less vulnerable to repeat mistakes. If you stick around for a decade in a emotional drain you are not without responsibility in that. I failed in my responsibility for myself, to protect myself, because I had stupid notions and so on and so forth.

You think it's silly that I think in terms of primary emotional motivation, but, it works for me. In case of a psychopathic sexual sadist with narcissistic personality disorder, an anger excitation rapist, we can assume that he has certain often documented primary motivator that influence all of his behaviors. What he feels within his core is what shapes his personality and drives him to do the things that he does. fear -> need for power -> need for display of power -> sadism is one primary aspect. Not the only one, since there is more to him than sadism, but a primary one. And normal people aren't much different from that. It's just how I view the world, naturally. Perhaps an INFJ thing.

My point is, this is probably not the best audience for your argument, since anyone who has been abused and feels are vulnerable to abuse wouldn't want to make themselves more so, but less so.


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

koalaroo said:


> Basically, because the real world isn't "Barney's playground" (seriously?) ... people should viciously shove back? Pull hair? Shank someone in the park restroom? I'm glad modern sensibilities mean a reversion to an eye-for-an-eye.
> 
> How are my notions PC? Because I advocate on behalf of people with mental illness? Because I advocate understanding and education? Because I advocate treatment? Because I advocate not repeating vicious cycles?
> 
> I don't think you should hold back out of pity. Pity helps no one with mental illness or disorders. Did you not read what I said previously about pity and mental illness? Perhaps my posts went into TL;DR territory because you didn't care to read what I said? So no, don't hold back out of pity. I think you should hold back from such behavior because it isn't healthy for anyone in the picture.


The balls on you. 

You come into a thread about people who were manipulated, abused, and tormented by people with BPD who stuck around trying to do the "right thing" only to be put through hell via emotional manipulation and then tell them when they finally wake up to the bullshit that they aren't doing the right thing? 

You're coming on here arguing the same line as the abusers and making the same manipulative chains of logic. You amaze me. No, this girl was not seeking treatment and no, she was not receptive to any line of reasoning about her being any problem at all. Everything was someone else's fault. And yes, she was seeking proactively to libel me and damage me. So yes, I swung back, and yes, she was very distraught, and no I don't give a shit. She could go kill herself and I still wouldn't give a shit because I liberated myself from her guilt-tripping crap and I realized that her problems are her problems, not mine. 

If someone takes a swing at me, whether that be a physical swing, or whether it be them spreading lies about me behind my back to people I know to hurt me, I'm going to swing back. Period. If you don't want to get punched don't throw a punch. Period. 

I don't give a flying fuck what 3 letter abbreviated crap they have going on in their lives. Quit making excuses for people.


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## knittigan (Sep 2, 2011)

@Btmangan, I don’t want to speak for @koalaroo, but I don’t think that she was trying to minimise your experience or, more generally, the intense harm that people often go through when they are living or in some sort of relationship with someone who has a mental illness. 

I think that she was trying to emphasise the fact that when someone who is mentally ill hurts other people, it is not the same as a neurotypical person hurting others out of sheer malice and so dealing with that person as if they were neurotypical might not be appropriate. This does not mean that there should not be repercussions to the things that they’ve done, but it’s important to recognise that people who are mentally ill and untreated might not understand the consequences of their actions and they might have a difficult time understanding that what they are doing is wrong. 

Does that mean that you or me or anyone else should just jot that down as an excuse for their behaviour and allow them to continue to harm us? No, I don’t think so. Obviously, everybody has limits and in some cases what is best for everyone involved is to walk away. But maybe other times, it’s not. By which I mean that it was probably right for you in the case of the girl you mentioned, but I don’t personally believe that it is for me with my father. That isn’t my choice. At the end of the day, after all of the immense hurt that he has caused me, he is still my father and that still means something to me, in spite of the way that he has treated me. Do I put myself into situations where he can harm me? I try not to, and I definitely have changed my relationship with him, but I have not cut him out of my life and I don’t think that I will at this point.

I think that @koalaroo was speaking more generally about the social stigma that mental illness has in most Western societies, and for what it’s worth, I agree with her. It’s something that people don’t talk about because it’s seen as shameful and embarrassing and bad and because it is seen in this way, it’s often difficult for people who are mentally ill to seek help or for their families and partners to get them the help that they need if that is what they choose to do. The reality is that living _with_ a mental illness is incredibly traumatising for families, friends, partners, coworkers, children... and the people who suffer from it as well. And part of that trauma is definitely related to the fact that we understand mental illness in this way.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

@Sheppard - I'm a recent user of the @ function on forums and facebook as well -- and to tend to forget to use it half the time! So, welcome to the club. You appear less bad at it than I do, frankly. That said, I don't think I could do Twitter, ya know? I'd fail at all those hash tag categories. Maybe I'd end everything with #winning? That seems really jerky though. Bad idea? 

My silliness aside (INTPs are allowed to be silly oddballs once in a blue moon, although I've heard even then we aren't funny), I'll try to get back to the topic. I can and do see where you're coming from. Abuse isn't an experience people want to return to, no matter the extent of abuse they've experienced. I was lucky that the emotional abuse I received from my NPD grandfather was mitigated to an extent by my extended family. I suppose I was "lucky" that the death threat from the abusive ex I mentioned was when the relationship was already fizzling into failure territory -- and for whatever reason I was able to say, "Fuck this" and walk away.

(If you think walking away from anything is easy for me ... look at the extent to which I've replied in this topic!)

Anyways, I don't necessarily think it's silly that you judge and perceive the world around you in terms of emotional impact. I'm not a total robot of an INTP, and if I was, I guess I'd probably be a Cylon sleeper agent and totally rock out to that Mr. Roboto song at the same time. At any rate, I think and feel that both thoughts and emotions can be rational and irrational. A person can have irrational thoughts that do not necessarily involve emotion (someone who thinks that X agency is out to get him or her because of A, B & C reasoning in his or her mind), just as an emotion (say a fear or phobia) can be rationally understood. For instance, for a long time I grappled with why I was terrified of the dark. People often equate it to a fear of the unknown. After some reflection on the subject, I realized that my continued fear of the dark has less to do with fear of the unknown in general than it does with me grappling with my continued loss of eyesight -- my dislike or fear of the dark is because I am frightened of going totally blind. Oddly, for someone who has grappled with invisible disabilities and the prejudices that come with them, I'm actually more frightened of becoming visibly disabled.

In the course of my posts, if I came across as dismissive of people who have been abused by persons with BPD or any other personality disorder, I didn't intend to come across that way. I sincerely apologize to anyone I've hurt or offended in the process. I'm concerned with both the person who was abused, as well as the person with the disorder that instigated their abusive behavior. The person who has been abused needs help and potentially therapy. The person with the disorder needs both help (preferably not from the person who they have abused) and therapy. Both sets of people need to learn boundaries (this is part of DBT). And further disturbing a person with a mental disorder or illness makes things worse not only for them, but for anyone else around them.

Incidentally, the founder of DBT was diagnosed with BPD as a teenager, was basically written off as an impossible/worthless/hopeless/untreatable case, and went on to fly in the face of the institutional stigma of her disorder to the point of proving the psychiatrists wrong about her case. Heck, she found a way to help some people with the disorder normalize their lives and become more productive members of society. Perhaps her inner, personal understanding of how the disorder works is what makes DBT a somewhat successful course of therapy for people diagnosed with BPD.

Sheppard, you are also correct that the "audience" in this topic would tend to be averse to my views and argument. Nevertheless, I tend to plow ahead in terms of "education and understanding". It's interesting to get a look into the head of the person who was abused, as well as a look into the head of the person with a disorder that makes them abusers. At the same time, not every person who has BPD is likely to be chronically abusive. I found an interesting thread on another forum with a recent debate about BPD in it; unfortunately, I had too many tabs open in Chrome and the program errored. I'll have to find that website and forum topic again. It was an interesting read. 

As for the graph, I was actually curious why INTPs were fairly high on the graph as well (I think it was 8%), although not as high as the INXJ types. Of the P-types, INTPs had the third highest likelihood of having been in an abusive relationship with someone with BPD. Then I realized it was possibly because of the inferior F-function seeking approval, validation and recognition through the framework of a relationship -- and so the threat of the withdrawal of said approval/validation/recognition might be troublesome for many INTPs.

This was one of my original thoughts on the graph, and then I got sidetracked by thinking, "Wait, some of the responses are valid and some make me concerned in terms of both logic and emotion." This is where I came in swinging full force for avoiding the stigmatization of a group with a psychiatric label.

All this said, I would probably make a terrible conventional therapist -- although I have thought about a career in art therapy. I've thought about the theories behind it, as well as making some of my own (although someone probably already came up with my theories). Me as an art therapist would probably be moot if I went blind, though. 


P.S. my apologies for being slightly silly throughout this post.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

@knittigan - Thank you. That is basically my point. I am not trying to invalidate anyone's experience. 

@Btmangan - How am I "making excuses for people" when I explain mental illness and stigmatization? Also, how is my logic as twisted as the abuser's? Enlighten me here! With thoughts and feelings! 

I am not trying to invalidate your experience. That doesn't mean I think or feel you went about how you dealt with her in a way that was meaningful to anyone other than yourself. It was, in fact, probably damaging to you, to her and potentially for anyone else around her.


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## Sheppard (Jul 4, 2011)

@knittigan

I got a bit side tracked but now, going back to your original post, it's always difficult with parents. I found that my relationship to my parents really colored all the relationships after. And since I am still connected to them, still feel this bond that you likely do too, that still goes on today. It's a transference thing of sorts, I think. For me at least, this is what I found. 

This is something I wrote a while back on the subject in this thread:



> I could not stop loving him, yet the love I felt was continually causing me some type of suffering, with the climax having been reached during this fight. I couldn't change that to feel better about it, I couldn't cut this man out of my heart or doorslam him. Oh, and I have tried, many times, in my life to give him that doorslam. Now, being in a situation where I couldn't fix our relationship, where I couldn't cut our relationship, where the relationship causes me suffering, what can I do?
> 
> Now, before I say what I did do, I wonder if all, or at least most children love their parents unconditionally. If this is a natural part of the parent / child relationship. I've read of many people that would love to, but are unable to cut that tie for non rational reasons. In order for the therapists word so long ago to make sense to me now, I am assuming that this is common that this bond is so strong.
> 
> ...


My eventual solution to that is not one I'd advice. I decided I'd rather be vulnerable to my old man than distant to people in general, incapable of loving like I'd like to. I still haven't found a way to... separate that. 

My mother is an INTJ, and she's pretty good applying a scalpel to her relationships. 

"We've been friends for twenty years, but what you just said right now is so stupid I can't even look at you. Don't speak to me again. Good day"
"Wait, what? No, you can't do that, I'm sorry!"
"Yawn,... you're still here? I thought I said good day."

Know what I mean? So, with her as my template for that particular type so high on that graph, it really took me by surprise. She's about as likely to end up in an abusive relationship as Hannibal the Cannibal


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## knittigan (Sep 2, 2011)

@Sheppard -- First of all, I've _never_ seen someone describe INTJ doorslam quite like that before, but it's so accurate that it actually made me tear up with laughter, so kudos to you for that.

It might be the parent-child bond thing, but I don't know if that's all that there is to it. I've been fortunate enough never to have been in an abusive romantic relationship before, but I have been in other situations where my partner has mistreated me in what are, in retrospect, other really horrifying ways (i.e. lying to me about the fact that he was still married, though separated, and carrying on with me for almost two months after he officially reconciled with his wife because he had feelings for me and felt like he had been pressured into fixing things with his wife by his family, rather than choosing to do so of his own accord) and although I've never hesitated for an instance about walking away from anyone who mistreats me, or offends me by being ignorant, or happens to look at me in passing after I've woken up on the wrong side of the bed exactly in the way that you described your mother, I just... couldn't let go of him. And it shocked the absolute hell out of me as well as every person who knew me and knew what was going on. _It was so utterly unlike me_.

Part of it, I think, is attributable to the fact that I'm Ni-dominant. What's normal for me is considering things from different viewpoints. In "cut and dry" situations like partner abuse (I say this tentatively, because are they ever really cut and dry? I digress), I know that these kinds of behaviours are wrong. They're wrong if you're a woman, they're wrong if you're a man, they're wrong, they're wrong, they're wrong. But when it comes to infidelity and mental illness (and other things), for whatever reason, I feel like they're slightly more complicated. And maybe I'm wrong, maybe they aren't. But because I feel this way, it's usually very important for me to understand why people are hurting me. I tried to understand my father for years, but I had no idea what was going on until I was much older (and, realistically, the worst of the damage had already been done) and my mother told me that he had been diagnosed with BPD in the years prior to my birth. I knew that the relationship we had did not reflect the way that fathers were supposed to treat their daughters, or even the way that most fathers _did_ treat their daughters, but I didn’t know why and so it was much easier for me to get sucked into his behaviour. With my ex, I was so shocked and so hurt by what he did to me that I needed to rationalise his behaviour and understand what he went through and why he did what he did. Until I understood those things, it was utterly impossible for me to let go.

INTJs are rather odd creatures. Although we do tend to be quite reserved, there are always a few people who we let into our inner circle. I realise that INFJs are somewhat similar, but I wonder about the difference than Fe and Fi makes in this regard. Because once I have let someone in like that, they basically have the keys to the kingdom and I don't know how to articulate how significant that is for me. It changes who I am and I don’t mean that glibly. At that point, they have the ability to utterly destroy me. And by destroy, I mean completely upset the parts of me that are most crucial to my identity. When one of those someones hurts me like that, it is absolutely devastating. I basically go off the deep end. If this seems drastic, it's worth pointing out that I'm a 5w4 sx/sp INTJ and it's possible that some of this is specific to that subset, rather than all INTJs.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

@knittigan - I have heard it said that both INTJs and INFJs tend to be more gifted with words and phrasing than other types. I agree that @Sheppard's "INTJ door slam" was apt and amusing. I am a bit jealous that both of you seem more capable of expressing yourselves coherently compared to my verbal expression. My narrative tends to be discursive and rambling, full of potentially bizarre commentary that whips from grim to whimsical at the drop of a piece of punctuation. Although, I wonder if that's my INTP popping out or my bipolar. 



> Although we do tend to be quite reserved, there are always a few people who we let into our inner circle.


I think INTPs are similar in this way as well. I think maybe, though, we end up cutting and running faster than the INxJ's. Maybe we are "colder"? Perhaps those are some of the reasons INTPs are lower in the BPD survivor % than the INxJ's. I don't know. I'd be interested in a comparison of the BPD abuse survivors graph with a similarly constructed one for general relationship abuse survivors -- that is, based on the MBTI types of survivors.


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## Sheppard (Jul 4, 2011)

knittigan said:


> @Sheppard -- First of all, I've _never_ seen someone describe INTJ doorslam quite like that before, but it's so accurate that it actually made me tear up with laughter, so kudos to you for that.
> 
> It might be the parent-child bond thing, but I don't know if that's all that there is to it. I've been fortunate enough never to have been in an abusive romantic relationship before, but I have been in other situations where my partner has mistreated me in what are, in retrospect, other really horrifying ways (i.e. lying to me about the fact that he was still married, though separated, and carrying on with me for almost two months after he officially reconciled with his wife because he had feelings for me and felt like he had been pressured into fixing things with his wife by his family, rather than choosing to do so of his own accord) and although I've never hesitated for an instance about walking away from anyone who mistreats me, or offends me by being ignorant, or happens to look at me in passing after I've woken up on the wrong side of the bed exactly in the way that you described your mother, I just... couldn't let go of him. And it shocked the absolute hell out of me as well as every person who knew me and knew what was going on. _It was so utterly unlike me_.
> 
> ...


Right, Fi. It's basically the function that gives you a stealth ability in my eyes. I can't feel what's going on in you, and can forget it's even there. I don't even really understand the description of it. It's as mysterious to me as Ni would be to a sensor. I can tell you that Fe is a pain in the ass, though  It's what makes me want to make other people happy, basically, because when other people are happy, I am happy. The curse of empathy. 

It's really easy to just project something onto an INTJ, as an unaware empath. You expect something to ping on the radar, but there's nothing, and something that can then happen is you sort of make up what's going on inside them but the only thing that really tells you, if you're aware that you are projecting, is something about yourself. With my mother, I usually assumed that she had other motives, was plotting something, because, well, I have trust issues 










Ni... do you think it might make us more flexible? I can't remember right now if Ni was connected to adaptability or not. It's something that I'm personally really scarily good at. Far, far above the average that I've seen. 

There is a problem in the relationship, lets say. I am able to see the other persons perspective on said problem. I am able to identify the problem. Being a sucker for harmony what I want is for the problem in the relationship to go away. The other person is very rigid and cannot change how they perceive, or how they act. I on the other hand, can, easily, and so do. There is always the sense of, ok, if I do this, then this can work out, and I adapt. That hasn't really gotten me anywhere in the long run. Now one thing that I'm trying to implement more is a certain rigidity and selfishness. 

I have a sort of defender mode that supersedes my need for harmony. It's probably where we got the protector nickname from. It's quite compulsive. I can get very righteous on someone's behalf even if that means creating a conflict. It's just, for a very long time I didn't realize that I could do the same thing for myself, as well. It was kind of a novel concept. You can see a glimpse of that in a post I wrote earlier. That was the defender in action, protecting, in this case, myself.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

koalaroo said:


> @Boss - You might have found "airing dirty laundry" offensive, and perhaps that was absolutely the point of it. It's an emotionally charged subject. The victims of someone's emotional abuse certainly need a place to speak on the subject; however, I don't think going "all people with BPD are like this or this or this" is helpful to the victims of emotional abuse from BPD because it promotes one-dimensional thinking. It certainly doesn't help people with the disorder. Or do they not matter in this equation at all?
> 
> That said, I think it's better to objectively go over the effects of a mental disorder on the patient and those surrounding them. Yeah it blows being abused by someone with a personality disorder, but they're also treatable (although BPD is difficult to treat). That said, personal stories that can reinforce stigma of persons with mental illness can also help to dismantle it, if the right material is there to be analyzed. But again, if a person is unwilling to undergo treatment, that is when you back out of it and find ways to protect yourself from further harm and trauma. Your emotional and physical well-being are just as important as those of a person with a disorder.


I am surprised that someone who researches stigma in the healthcare field would make the ridiculous mistake of using "offensiveness" as a tactic to get her point across. Then you say that you didn't mean to 'offend' anyone. Give me a break. 

Disrespecting people who have survived abuse is not the way to go about advocating for people with psychiatric labels. You can introduce objectivity into a discussion without taking advantage of the 'emotionally charged' aspect of the subject. As a human rights advocate, my expectations from educators are a lot higher.

Now, based on my life-long experiences with a BPD sufferer, I have decided that I will never have any kind of relationship with one, except in the professional sphere. This has nothing to do with making blanket misinformed assertions of the 'all BPD sufferers are this/that' nature. I choose not to live my life tip-toeing around a person with BPD, especially in the context of an intimate relationship. I don't do this to consciously perpetuate the mental health stigma. *laugh* I don't want to relive certain experiences, and I won't. Like I said, my self-preservation always comes first. Needless to say, I support appropriate treatment for sufferers of any illness. 

One of my dearest friends has schizophrenia, and she is among the kindest most wonderful people I know. She almost reminds of this blogger she likes: A Schizophrenic and a Dog 
I suggest that people go through this lady's blog. 

Anyway, the stigma surrounding schizophrenia seems more pervasive. I am all for fighting mental health stigma, and helping people objectively evaluate the impact of mental illness on the patient and their own lives, but not by disrespectfully *labeling* people's experiences as 'dirty laundry'.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

@Boss - You are correct that I went about it the wrong way, because people certainly misunderstood and took offense -- including you. Sometimes shock works; mostly shock backfires. I tried and I failed to get my point across. I wasn't trying to offend, so "give me a break" there. You don't have to "believe" me, although I'd appreciate it if you would.

I wasn't labeling people's specific experiences as "dirty laundry" or trying to invalidate them. The "dirty laundry" comment was more at people generalizing all people with BPD as exactly the same, painting people with the disorder with a VERY BROAD BRUSH, in the sense that they're "all manipulators" or "all predators" to the point that they should be avoided all costs. That's my view of what "airing dirty laundry" is when referencing a disorder. Taking all of the negatives and placing it all on a labeled group of people. There are a fair few iterations on the behaviors of the disorder, seeing as you need five of nine criteria to be diagnosed with it.

I don't expect people who have been abused to jump back into an abusive relationship. That's worrisome on a lot of accounts. That doesn't mean that after emotional abuse (which I too have suffered in different ways from different people), objectivity flies out of the window and a person retaliates with emotional abuse. That's absolutely disastrous to everyone involved. There are better courses of action than an eye-for-an-eye. As a human rights advocate, surely you know that.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

@Boss - I do agree that schizophrenia has attached to it one of the most pervasive stigmas in Western cultures and societies. That said, psychologists and psychiatrists are more willing to treat people with schizophrenia than they are people with borderline personality disorder. That said, the stigma in the community of mental health professionals against people with BPD is fairly staggering. That may or may not have something to do with the relative "ease" and "efficacy" of therapy in patients with schizophrenia compared to those with borderline personality disorder.

Ease and efficacy are in quotations because prognosis isn't always THAT great for patients with schizophrenia. It's just that comparatively, it's easier to manage as a clinician than BPD.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

koalaroo said:


> @Boss - You are correct that I went about it the wrong way, because people certainly misunderstood and took offense -- including you. Sometimes shock works; mostly shock backfires. I tried and I failed to get my point across. I wasn't trying to offend, so "give me a break" there. You don't have to "believe" me, although I'd appreciate it if you would.
> 
> I wasn't labeling people's specific experiences as "dirty laundry" or trying to invalidate them. The "dirty laundry" comment was more at people generalizing all people with BPD as exactly the same, painting people with the disorder with a VERY BROAD BRUSH, in the sense that they're "all manipulators" or "all predators" to the point that they should be avoided all costs. That's my view of what "airing dirty laundry" is when referencing a disorder. Taking all of the negatives and placing it all on a labeled group of people.
> 
> I don't expect people who have been abused to jump back into an abusive relationship. That's worrisome on a lot of accounts. That doesn't mean that after emotional abuse (which I too have suffered in different ways from different people), objectivity flies out of the window and a person retaliates with emotional abuse. That's absolutely disastrous to everyone involved. There are better courses of action than an eye-for-an-eye. As a human rights advocate, surely you know that.


I don't see how it's a misunderstanding. You stated that your statement was meant to offend ( I quote: _"Boss, You might have found "airing dirty laundry" offensive, and perhaps that was absolutely the point of it"_), and I found it disrespectful. So, you got, at least some of, what you were looking for. This wasn't 'shock'. It was unnecessary flippancy, even if you were very obviously well-intentioned. I have not questioned your intentions anywhere on this thread, so you needn't defend them or implore me to believe you. I have pointed out that I disagree with your _method_ as evinced by your word choice there. 

Demonizing BPD sufferers is counter-productive. If you think people were doing that, intentionally or unintentionally, then that could've been remedied in a more straight forward manner. So, it wouldn't have left any room for misinterpretation (and the term 'airing dirty laundry' is problematic, in this respect, as you realize yourself). 

Now, point out to me where I have suggested retaliating with any kind of abuse. You are probably responding to someone else's post in this comment. My position is that people have every right to act in self-defense by leaving the damaging situation and seeking therapy assuming they have access to it. 


As for the 'an eye for an eye' comment, there's so much more to my identity and life goals than being a human rights advocate (and, I'll admit I am an odd fit *laugh*). Actually, I am an amoral, revengeful, rage-driven person. That said, I don't believe in harming a mentally ill person just for the sake of retaliation. That's petty. I'd be lying if I were to say that my hands haven't hungered for my mother's neck to fill them. But, I know better. It doesn't solve a thing. It doesn't help the situation. In general, retaliation (and/or violence) is not always strategically beneficial.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

@Boss - Thank you for pointing out my faults and stupidities (I am not meaning this in a sarcastic manner, I'm being genuine, as odd as that sounds). I do not mind; life and communication are always a learning process. If I make a fool of myself, I try to learn and pick up the pieces of my idiocy. That at least is one of the things I try to do with life.

And yes the eye-for-an-eye bit was about one of the people I've been responding to, because I'm foolish enough and idealistic enough to be baited. Read a few pages back and see what posts I was referring to. The post was, to me, absolutely appalling because I view the eye-for-an-eye method as being disastrous for all parties involved. 



> Actually, I am an amoral, revengeful, rage-driven person.


It may seem an odd fit to you or to some, but apparently you channel the negatives into something more positive: working for the betterment of whichever group of people you advocate for. I think, perhaps, turning negatives into positives is where things need to go. But, again, I'm oftentimes a silly idealist.


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## La Loca Trippy (Jul 19, 2010)

Ummm........

::head pops in doorway, looks quickly left and right::

I'm surprised that there are not more ISFJs represented on the chart, I would think they are more susceptible to entering/staying in a relationship with someone who has BPD. I'm thinking of my ISFJ brother who has a "rescuer" complex. 

The number of INTJs on the chart seems quite high.......

*shrugs*


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@koalaroo : Oh no, as I have likely said it already, I have a great deal of respect for your work, your experiences and your passion. I wasn't attempting to find faults there. It's just that you can make the whole process of creating awareness a lot more effective by not, unintentionally, offending your audience. Granted, the term you used wasn't a big deal as such. Still, in matters of communication, educators need to be more careful than usual. Trust me, I have made numerous mistakes in this regard. Putting a great deal of thought into the words I use doesn't come naturally to me..like AT ALL. I've just learnt from the million and one mistakes I have made in the past (some in very ahem public settings). 

I agree. For all my _bloodthirstiness_, I don't see myself wasting time on exacting revenge in such situations. It accomplishes nothing. No one gets anything out of it. 

And, thank you, I rock the negative ---> positive thing or I would've, likely, been a serial killer today. *laugh*
I appreciate your idealism. The world needs it. 


P.S. Thanks for commenting on the differences between healthcare workers' approaches (and attitudes) towards BPD and Schizophrenia.


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## Sheppard (Jul 4, 2011)

La Loca Trippy said:


> Ummm........
> 
> ::head pops in doorway, looks quickly left and right::
> 
> ...


I can see two possible reasons for that right off the bat.

1) The ISFJ I know really well is incredibly rigid. I think she would have turned into a thermonuclear bomb devastating everything in a 100 mile radius before ever allowing herself to be a victim of this very specific type of manipulation. That can be a problem in other contexts, but not in this one. 

2) They don't want to talk about it.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

@Btmangan - If we consider the original graph valid, I have a question for you! As a Fe user, do you find it plausible that the inferior Fe of an INTP would account for that type's representation on the graph?


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## LittlexLady07 (Dec 9, 2011)

I admittedly have not read all responses to the OP (and may be misreading the original graph...hope that's not the case), but I'm an INTJ with a father who has BPD and I would like to provide a potential theory for why INTJs are represented as being the most frequent survivors of these types of individuals.

I think it's not that other types don't get reeled into abusive relationships with people with BPD so much as INTJs (and INFJs who also have Ni leading) are able and at times forced, through our research abilities, to determine the exact underlying cause for the abusive behavior. For example, I was the one who first suggested that my father had BPD through my own research of medical articles, his personal history, etc. He then (through much coercion on my part) saw a professional who officially diagnosed him. So other types may have been in abusive relationships with people with BPD but simply didn't recognize it. These types may have just figured that they were dealing with assholes and needed to leave, and weren't concerned with determining the specific TYPE of asshole, if that makes sense.

I diagnosed my dad as a young teenager, and unlike an INFJ, did so not so much out of a desire to help him out of loving care but more as a result of of, "Well, my mother won't do anything about him, I can't really do anything about him (leaving him, for example), so if I find out WHY he's an asshole perhaps there is a slight chance he will be able to work at becoming a better person and I won't have to put up with this shit."


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## Nitou (Feb 3, 2010)

I've had a list of diagnoses. Interestingly, when I _described_ symptoms, it was called bipolar/possibly schizoaffective disorder. But when I _demonstrated_ symptoms by throwing a tantrum in my frustration with the red tape to get treatment, it was called BPD. I met the diagnostic criteria for both. I suffered for years, but this illness spontaneously healed itself almost overnight when my daughter came. She gave me something to live for. So I think it was a psycho-spiritual issue rather than a true mental illness. I have been mostly symptom-free for more than five years without medication.

If you are close to someone with bad mental issues, they can make _you_ sick too. I have known a little of both sides. You certainly must protect yourself from that. But I would like to clear up some misconceptions. There is nothing in the BPD diagnostic criteria that states that they are necessarily abusive or manipulative. People who suffer from BPD are operating from a very primitive emotional state, but it is different from antisocial personality disorder which is characterized by a lack of empathy and remorse. (Think of a young child who just screams to get her way without regard to reason or others' rights.) 

It is my belief that part of the confusion lies with poor professional understanding of mental illness and poor definitions. Some people with BPD, like myself are self-aware and try to control it. Others are batshit insane and sociopathic. BPD is an illness that is typically (but not always) caused by trauma, while bipolar is said to be a chemical defect. There is some overlap between the two, and both can be associated with psychotic (losing touch with reality) and dissociative (splitting of the mind) symptoms. 

I think being an intellectual gave me an edge- I studied mental pathology, I observed myself and tried to analyze and control this shit that had a grip on my mind. I tried not to get it on other people, though I couldn't help it sometimes. I will describe a little of what it's like on the inside.

First, it is pain. Agonizing, excruciating limbic pain that makes you curl up in a ball and howl to the gods for relief. And they ignore you. On your better days you walk around with an ache in your chest like your best friend just died. 

You become an observer of your self without having much control or ownership of your self. Like, "I'm slamming this pot on the stove in frustration. Wtf. Who is that, anyway?" You feel like your memories are just movies you saw. You sink into some other place in time, and you're in that moment experiencing it again. Your head is all foggy. 

BPD patients have a reputation for being manipulative. Think of trying to rescue a drowning victim. They will try to pull you under too, not because they want to kill you but because they are frantic with fear. Same with BPD "manipulation." They are frantic and operating from a primitive, infantile and wounded part of the psyche. They aren't manipulating you with reason the same way a salesman manipulates you. 

You might say or do something that reminds the BPD patient of something from their past that wounded them. They probably aren't aware of that, though. They blame the hurt on you, and perhaps want to hurt you in retaliation or otherwise act out. You're not dealing with a rational person. The core drive of the BPD patient is simply to relieve the pain, even if the things they do make it worse, but they cannot see it. 

Now, I would be somewhat self-aware in this state. Self-awareness might save others from the worst of the BPD bite, but to me it is confusing as hell. I'm trying but... I get lost in a mental storm where I cannot distinguish my own swirling thoughts and feelings and memories from objective reality. I think someone mistreated me, but I am not sure. They hurt my feelings. Or did they? I cannot tell. (Someone with BPD is an easy victim of abuse, too.)

I like/love someone. I want to cling onto him like the drowning victim. I want to suck his blood and eat his organs because I am starving. And, ugh, how revolting. I fight this sick feeling. I want him to love me and take care of me. No, I want him to get the fuck away from me because I hate myself for feeling so needy and I don't want him to get too close to the black hole in my heart. I want to die. I think I'll go cut on myself to relieve the pain. (Self-mutilation releases endorphins and gives a slight and temporary relief.) 

There is something else though, something that I have not seen documented very much. I hope that people who work in this field can come to understand this aspect of BPD. BPD patients have a reputation for being "treatment resistant." That's like a doctor calling a cancer patient "treatment-resistant," blaming the patient who desperately wants to get better but can't. Sometimes the things that head-shrinkers do can make the BPD patient worse. I caught that point somewhere in this thread. It has happened to me, too. 

With BPD you're dealing with a wounded animal in a trap. You might try to help but it is scared and hurt and just bites you. You would not get angry at the animal in this case, but you expect the BPD patient to be more cognizant. She isn't, not really. Sometimes well-meaning people try to be helpful and say reasonable things. But you cannot reason with an animal. In this case, you will have to acknowledge the animal within and earn its trust before you can help it. This is more fighting within myself, and I don't understand it. I am torn between a rational and observing mind and primitive wounded mind. More self-loathing. 

As much as I know of the inner world of a BPD patient, I wouldn't want to go near one who was not self-aware. I am pretty healthy, but I don't have the fortitude to feel that kind of hell without getting dragged down into it.

Here's another thing... I suspect that modern-style psychiatric "care" is a bad paradigm that actually makes people sick. Some religious traditions associate our so-called "mental illness" with a spiritual journey or growth. In this paradigm, people don't see themselves as sick or suffering and they can endure the pain until it passes. The "Dark Night of the Soul" is a journey that has been described in a few different religious traditions. It is described like being burned in hell's fire on earth, like animals are eating you, and other creepy imagery. It is excruciatingly painful and you're all alone- just like with BPD and other disorders. But people recover from it better than they were before. I am an atheist, but in this case I believe religion is more effective than science. If I understand DBT right, it incorporates Eastern religious philosophy to teach you how to manage the pain.

I recently visited a spiritual forum where people were describing severe psychiatric symptoms and diagnoses of bipolar and schizophrenia, but these people did not see themselves as ill. From what I could tell, they seemed to manage the pain better than people who believe themselves to be ill. And I once had a dream, when I was sick I dreamed that it was not a stigma but an honor to bear such a burden. So yeah, stigma can be a problem. Of course I know why BPD is stigmatized. But say you could take that vicious BPD patient and put her off by herself to howl curses and be burned in hell and devoured by wild animals in her own mind, with the expectation that she will come out better than she was before? And it works? What if?


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

Sheppard said:


> To be taken with a grain or two of salt, yes. Mistyping and willingness to seek out a community online to communicate with impact the data, no doubt. To what degree is anyones guess.
> 
> I didn't know that N was one of the letters most likely to be mistyped since sensing and intuiting seem so very different. One thing I considered a possiblity, actually, not knowing this, was that infjs and intjs seemed to be the most likely to explore their type in some depth, and so be the least one likely to be mistyped. I guess that was a pretty big jump to conclusion there. All in all, even if entirely bogus, it does offer some interesting food for thought.


I think N is actually the most mistyped letter. People seem to think that if they are interested in theories, ideas, daydreaming, being creative, or imagining, that they are automatically an N. This is far from true, but it's a concept difficult to measure.

Ah, you say that INxJ's would be most likely to explore their type, but even if they were all correctly typed, this doesn't stop other types from mistyping as INTJ or INFJ.


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## Sheppard (Jul 4, 2011)

Nitou said:


> The "Dark Night of the Soul" is a journey that has been described in a few different religious traditions. It is described like being burned in hell's fire on earth, like animals are eating you, and other creepy imagery. It is excruciatingly painful and you're all alone- just like with BPD and other disorders. But people recover from it better than they were before.


First of all, thank you very much for writing all that. It's a valuable perspective full of insight, and I'm grateful that you shared.

That part I quoted hits home pretty hard. I experienced that, I think. I called it the shatter. That final gift of my ex was the most intense, the most enduring, and the most valuable pain I've had in my life. In a sense, in the end, it was an experience that let me open my eyes and really _see_, let me become aware. Getting all tensed up just thinking back on it now, but, yeah, that is a large aspect of why I don't have regret anymore, why I don't lament it all as unfair. Because, through my experiences that preceded it, I was given that, too. Enduring that in exchange for _waking up_, it was a fair price to pay, for me.


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## paper lilies (Dec 6, 2011)

Sheppard said:


> With someone who has BPD?
> 
> Personally, if you have a choice in the matter, my advice would be to run as far and as fast as you can. But then, I've been burned pretty badly.


I'm actually incredibly offended. 
There seems to be a large misunderstanding in the mental illness community about BPD.
A lot of people seem to think borderline's lack empathy and compassion.
That's sociopathy- which is completely different.
So, someone who has a mental illness they cannot control is not worthy of a beautiful and loving relationship? That's what I'm getting from this.
There is help for BPD and it can be controlled, it just takes a lot of work from the person with the illness and a lot patience from the person without.

This seems to be the attitude of anyone who's dated or thinks they've dated someone with BPD.
I notice that many people that are in abusive relationships tend to "diagnose" their partners, even though a true diagnosis from a doctor has never been made. There are many mental illnesses out there, BPD (in my opinion) seems to generate the most blame. I'm not the nicest person, no, but many of these things these people are saying here simply don't apply to me. I'm not a liar; in fact, one of the things that makes me fly into a rage is when I find out that someone has lied to me, no matter how trivial the lie is. I've never stalked anyone. I'm well liked among my peers, nobody other than a few select people (mostly people who have had to deal with it directly) know about my diagnosis because it seems to revolve around a few important people in my life and my other symptoms are all focused upon myself.

I digress, I feel like a lot of the time blame is placed upon BPD even though the person in question may not actually be suffering from it.


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## Sheppard (Jul 4, 2011)

paper lilies said:


> I'm actually incredibly offended.
> There seems to be a large misunderstanding in the mental illness community about BPD.
> A lot of people seem to think borderline's lack empathy and compassion.
> That's sociopathy- which is completely different.
> ...


You're offended that someone who qualifies his statement as having been burned pretty badly indicates he doesn't want others to suffer likewise, and then continues to say, which you conveniently left out of your quote, that some try to make it work, and readily admits ignorance on that aspect. 

If you think what I said was offensive, you're not going to like this at all.



> It's like pouring the best of your self into a galactic-sized Psychological Black Hole of bottomless emotional hunger. And if you keep pouring it in long enough, one-day you'll fall right down that hole yourself. There will be nothing left of you but your own shadow, just as it falls through her predatory "event horizon."


"Someone who has a mental illness *they cannot control* is" dangerous. I'm not making a judgement call on worthiness of anything. 

There is treatment, which some chose to pursue, which works for some, to varying degrees. That is a factually correct statement, yes?


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## paper lilies (Dec 6, 2011)

Sheppard said:


> You're offended that someone who qualifies his statement as having been burned pretty badly indicates he doesn't want others to suffer likewise, and then continues to say, which you conveniently left out of your quote, that some try to make it work, and readily admits ignorance on that aspect.
> 
> If you think what I said was offensive, you're not going to like this at all.
> 
> ...


I don't have BPD. I have Rapid Cycling Bipolar.
My best friend has BPD- and I am offended due to knowing her.
I wasn't claiming that what _only you_ said was offensive.
A lot of people have said very offensive things.
BPD's self loathe enough- they don't need someone to tell them they're a "bad person".
Again, not saying that you did this, I'm just going by what I have read.
So, if I'm ignorant- Bipolar's are ignorant too?
Be careful to judge on the internet, you have no idea who these people are.
Nor do I understand why this is such an exploding topic to talk about and stigmatize further.
Mental illess is mental illness is mental illness.
Also to disclaim I wasn't commenting on your claim that working on it works for some. I was commenting on the completely rude statement of telling others "running as far as possible" is a good option.
No wonder people stay away from BPD's. It's the ignorance of society that fuels the fire.
When I stand back and look at everything: people label BPD's as abusive and then slander the illness. Who's being abusive?


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

Another interesting thing I'm noticing is that different people (even of the same personality type) take abuse and being a victim to completely different places. It's not surprising, but I do find it interesting.

I've said my peace in the thread, and I think I'll leave it as is.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

Although, I'll link some DSM-IV Criteria for different things

Criteria for Personality Disorder:


> General diagnostic criteria for a Personality Disorder
> (cautionary statement)
> 
> A. An enduring pattern of inner experience and behavior that deviates markedly from the expectations of the individual's culture. This pattern is manifested in two (or more) of the following areas:
> ...


These are further divided into Cluster A (Paranoid, Schizoid, Schizotypal), Cluster B (Antisocial, Borderline, Histrionic, Narcissistic), and Cluster C (Avoidant, Dependent, Obsessive Compulsive).

Cluster A disorders are summarized as "odd or eccentric disorders."
Cluster B disorders are summarized as "dramatic, emotional or erratic disorders."
Cluster C disorders are summarized as "anxious or fearful disorders."
And then there are other personality disorders that don't meet Cluster A, Cluster B or Cluster C criteria.

Criteria for Borderline Personality Disorder:


> A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
> 
> (1) frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment.
> Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.
> ...


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

paper lilies said:


> I don't have BPD. I have Rapid Cycling Bipolar.
> My best friend has BPD- and I am offended due to knowing her.
> I wasn't claiming that what _only you_ said was offensive.
> A lot of people have said very offensive things.
> ...


Have you ever dated someone with Borderline? 

If not, then how do you have the slightest idea of what you're discussing?


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

Would anyone like me to start a health / mental health stigma thread on a debate or critical thinking forum? This way this thread can go back to the abuse victims?


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## La Loca Trippy (Jul 19, 2010)

Sheppard said:


> I can see two possible reasons for that right off the bat.
> 
> 1) The ISFJ I know really well is incredibly rigid. I think she would have turned into a thermonuclear bomb devastating everything in a 100 mile radius before ever allowing herself to be a victim of this very specific type of manipulation. That can be a problem in other contexts, but not in this one.
> 
> 2) They don't want to talk about it.



Bingo. My brother is super-sensitive and has always been so, but he has learned over time to bury his feelings and not talk about them. 

I worry about him sometimes.....he's 19 and is in a relationship with his first girlfriend, it seems to me he is drawn to her vulnerability. I think she sometimes uses it to get what she wants from him. He's already admitted/acknowledged his rescuer mentality. If he came across a girl he liked with BPD who was unaware or unwilling to work out her issues (especially one with traits of a waif), well, I pray to God that never happens.


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## paper lilies (Dec 6, 2011)

Btmangan said:


> Have you ever dated someone with Borderline?
> 
> If not, then how do you have the slightest idea of what you're discussing?


Yes, I have dated her. It was my longest relationship (four years).
Yes, I am bisexual. So, I am fully aware of what I am discussing.
Again: be careful to judge over the internet, you have no idea who people are.
In case it's queried, she was clinically diagnosed with BPD.
We still have remained best friends even after the break-up.



koalaroo said:


> Would anyone like me to start a health / mental health stigma thread on a debate or critical thinking forum? This way this thread can go back to the abuse victims?


I have already done this is "General Psychology".


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## Sheppard (Jul 4, 2011)

paper lilies said:


> I don't have BPD. I have Rapid Cycling Bipolar.
> My best friend has BPD- and I am offended due to knowing her.
> I wasn't claiming that what _only you_ said was offensive.
> A lot of people have said very offensive things.
> ...


And where exactly do the love interests that end up blowing their own brains out fit into this picture that lets you see everything?


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## paper lilies (Dec 6, 2011)

Sheppard said:


> And where exactly do the love interests that end up blowing their own brains out fit into this picture that lets you see everything?


That doesn't make any sense.
I'm not God and I'm not claiming to know everything.
I know _my own experience_.
If you are referring to the fact that *some* BPD's threaten suicide or actually attempt/commit it that is valid.
Yet, only in _some_ cases. Not all.
You have to fit 5 out of 9 criteria to be diagnosed- some may not fit that part of it.


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## Sheppard (Jul 4, 2011)

paper lilies said:


> That doesn't make any sense.
> I'm not God and I'm not claiming to know everything.
> I know _my own experience_.
> If you are referring to the fact that *some* BPD's threaten suicide or actually attempt/commit it that is valid.
> ...


I'm going to take the conglomerated and documented experiences of the tens of thousands of people I've read about who have had a relationship with someone suffering from bpd and ended up with ptsd and clinical depression, which can lead to suicide (and has twice with my ex alone, nearly thrice), in such frequency to be nearly blanket across the board, over your anecdotal experience that turnded out just fine. Bias is an evolutionary survival mechanism and cognitively imperative. When I see something long and dark laying in the shadows of tall grass as I'm walking though it I'm going to assume it's a snake rather than a stick, since I don't want to get bit - again.

Make sense?


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## Obsidean (Mar 24, 2010)

corgiflatmate said:


> I have a friend who was diagnosed with BPD. She happens to be an INFJ too.


Same, I know two INFJs and I swear they have BPD.


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

paper lilies said:


> Yes, I have dated her. It was my longest relationship (four years).
> Yes, I am bisexual. So, I am fully aware of what I am discussing.
> Again: be careful to judge over the internet, you have no idea who people are.
> In case it's queried, she was clinically diagnosed with BPD.
> We still have remained best friends even after the break-up.


Yet you broke up. 

And still, you sanctimoniously decry anyone who wants to protect themselves from this kind of abuse by preferring not to enter a relationship with this kind of person. 

That's hypocrisy.

Second of all, you have no right to lecture anyone on their sexual/dating preferences cuz it's none of your damned business. People have the right to decide what they find attractive, I suggest you grow accustomed to that.

Save the sermons.


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## paper lilies (Dec 6, 2011)

Sheppard said:


> I'm going to take the conglomerated and documented experiences of the tens of thousands of people I've read about who have had a relationship with someone suffering from bpd and ended up with ptsd and clinical depression, which can lead to suicide (and has twice with my ex alone, nearly thrice), in such frequency to be nearly blanket across the board, over your anecdotal experience that turnded out just fine. Bias is an evolutionary survival mechanism and cognitively imperative. When I see something long and dark laying in the shadows of tall grass as I'm walking though it I'm going to assume it's a snake rather than a stick, since I don't want to get bit - again.
> 
> Make sense?


Now that you've clarified, yes. The sentence beforehand was very vague from a reading standpoint.
I completely understand that someone dating someone with a categorized "intense" mental illness would be exhausted after a relationship. I am also aware that it's hard to put yourself in a seemingly similar situation after a bad experience. I have been abused (not by my ex BPD partner) and it has been hard to see myself with anyone due to lack of current trust. Your analogy is valid.
The point that I was trying to make- that seemed to get ripped to shreds was that just because _one_ person was a certain way, doesn't mean someone else is or will be. 
However, I do understand the fear and what I just wrote is easier said than done.
Everyone has different experiences and in no way am I trying to make my experience be the end-all be-all of them. I was just stating that sometimes when we spread a terrible message- it can hurt a group of people. I just happened to have a different experience, that's all.




Btmangan said:


> Yet you broke up.
> 
> And still, you sanctimoniously decry anyone who wants to protect themselves from this kind of abuse by preferring not to enter a relationship with this kind of person.
> 
> ...


I didn't say any of that- nor was that what I was trying to do. Read what I wrote above.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Including myself. That's why my opinions are my opinions.
If you do not believe the same- that's fine but, you do not have to scrutinize me for "trying to change anthers viewpoint".
I also wasn't lecturing anybody. You're lecturing me for doing something I didn't do.
I just provided my two cents on the issue.
People can date whomever they choose or whomever they want to.
That wasn't the point of what I said.

Also: I am allowed to break-up with a person and it was a mutual decision based on moving for university education if you must know. Again, judging someone by a _sentence_ over the internet is not necessary.


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## Vexilla Regis (May 4, 2011)

Btmangan said:


> Have you ever dated someone with Borderline?
> 
> If not, then how do you have the slightest idea of what you're discussing?


I am "formerly" married to someone with BPD, and "seriously" abused... I recommend extreme caution. At the time, I was young and naive. He began abusing me physically and emotionally, before we were even married, at which time I felt emotionally imprisioned and trapped... I feel sick and nausiated, just reading your posts... His BPD combined with my handicap, talk about a match made in hell. :/


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

Mountain Climber said:


> I am "formerly" married to someone with BPD, and "seriously" abused... I recommend extreme caution. At the time, I was young and naive. He began abusing me physically and emotionally, before we were even married, at which time I felt emotionally imprisioned and trapped... I feel sick and nausiated, just reading your posts... His BPD combined with my handicap, talk about a match made in hell. :/


I'm sorry you went through that, but don't blame yourself for being tricked. 

I knew this one girl w/ BPD who seduced and slept with every male in a small circle of friends and had every man convinced that she loved him most. She turned them all against each other in the end. 

A good thing that I learned from my little "trial by fire" was that I can now see manipulative and abusive behavior from about a mile off and I can catch myself when I feel myself playing for sympathy or doing something else underhanded. Experiences like these can help us grow, I think.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@paper lilies :

Why are you so offended because people who've dealt with BPD patients have had awful experiences that they have every right to share, in a non-judgmental environment? I am glad we've heard from koalaroo who offered valuable insights into mental health stigma. It was good to hear from @Nitou who talked about her experiences with BPD--without feeling the need to get defensive and sanctimonious. I've already talked about the importance of not denouncing all BPD patients as 'dangerous' or what have you. 

Why shouldn't anyone "run as far as they can" from a BPD sufferer (or anyone else for that matter) *who is abusive*? And the abuse aspect is the crux of this discussion, anyway.


Besides, *enough* has been said about the need to not stigmatize and demonize BPD patients. 

Your "who's being abusive" question was just inane. 

Also, you're assuming that people here are 'diagnosing' abusive partners etc. as BPD patients only because of pervasive stereotypes. I don't think anyone who has posted here so far is just fabricating BPD diagnoses. If you're talking about the general trend of misinformation and some people wrongfully labeling their partners as having BPD, you should say just that instead of being vague. 

Anyway, I want this thread to fulfill its intended purpose--which is to serve as a platform for sharing what living with a BPD patient entails and so on. You are interrupting the process in a way that's neither productive nor *respectful*. 

The most that can be done is, perhaps, a mod adding a disclaimer to the OP that the thread isn't meant to demonize BPD patients.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

koalaroo said:


> This thread is both intriguing and troublesome to me. I realize that being in a relationship with someone with a personality or mood disorder can be rough, but at the same time this just seems to ... perpetuate the stigma against those with problems.


Well here is what you may not understand about BPD, though. People who are Borderline often don't want help, or think everyone else is the problem. This is part of what makes it so toxic to be in a relationship with them.

I was in a relationship for six years with a man who has BPD. At first, I thought he was just _immature_. "Oh he'll grow out of this, anyway, he'd never actually hurt me." I didn't realize it was borderline personality for several years, but I knew something was terribly wrong. Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. He either loved me beyond compare (this is the "false worship" some people refer to earlier in the thread) or he treated me like garbage. He also had some traits that people will see in narcissists, but I think one of the primary differences with people with BPD from narcissists is that (thankfully) at least they are capable of empathy for other people and will actually feel bad for other people.

That's another problem with the BPD sufferer - you don't want to write them off completely, because they do have feelings for other people and have the very loving, "put you up on a pedestal" side to counter the abusive behavior. 

BPD is also often the result of childhood sexual and/or physically violent abuse, so there's yet another reason to keep giving the BPD sufferer chances, even while this person is hurting you because you keep doing so.

Anyway, my ex never got help and I let him go, and it was very difficult and painful because I was so in love with him, and I had to have years of therapy, and have issues of my own because of the length and intensity of the relationship. 

Even though he knew I'd come back if he got therapy, he refused, and instead tried to manipulate me by whining, crying, blaming and pleading "when are you coming home?"

This works for the BPD person for a time within a relationship, especially with an empathetic partner, but eventually you realize that you'll just be "going home" to the same old shit of having someone threaten you, degrade you, break your things, et al the moment that you fall off of the pedestal.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Btmangan said:


> S
> 
> But when you discover that they don't care an ounce about anyone but themselves that's a good time to run like hell.


Um, actually this isn't a trait of BPD...genuinely not caring about others is narcissism, antisocial personality, or psychopathy. 

There's no reason to make people with BPD sound worse.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

fourtines said:


> Well here is what you may not understand about BPD, though. People who are Borderline often don't want help, or think everyone else is the problem. This is part of what makes it so toxic to be in a relationship with them.


I do understand that many people with BPD won't seek help or will view everyone else as the problem; this is very common in other mental illnesses as well. The Cluster B personality disorders I listed earlier (antisocial, histrionic, borderline, narcissistic) tend to have a rather high incidence of this. In some cases, this is because of the type of disordered thinking present. In other cases, the stigma attached to treatment and the reception of particular disorders by social workers and the mental health community often makes them reluctant about, indifferent to or hostile towards the idea of treatment.


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## Vexilla Regis (May 4, 2011)

Btmangan said:


> I'm sorry you went through that, but don't blame yourself for being tricked.
> 
> I knew this one girl w/ BPD who seduced and slept with every male in a small circle of friends and had every man convinced that she loved him most. She turned them all against each other in the end.
> 
> A good thing that I learned from my little "trial by fire" was that I can now see manipulative and abusive behavior from about a mile off and I can catch myself when I feel myself playing for sympathy or doing something else underhanded. Experiences like these can help us grow, I think.


You're right. There's just one problem in my mind... now I'm skeptical and scared even when I shouldn't be... I am fortunate though, I have battered womens syndrome and a lot of hope and counseling available to me. I believe what i find tragic in my case is when other people misunderstand my fear for a whole lot of something else... something I don't even know how to define...

I guess the big key is to not be so judgemental of others...

I almost forgot, thank you.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

Mountain Climber said:


> You're right. There's just one problem in my mind... now I'm skeptical and scared even when I shouldn't be... I am fortunate though, I have battered womens syndrome and a lot of hope and counseling available to me. I believe what i find tragic in my case is that other people misunderstand my fear for a whole lot of something else... something I don't even know how to define...
> 
> I guess the big key is to not be so judgemental of others...


I just wanted to say good luck on your journey, and I'm sorry for what you went through. People with handicaps, disabilities and mental illness tend to be some of the prime targets of abuse and violence. Again, good luck on your journey.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Btmangan said:


> Just wanted to say that I'm with you 100%.
> 
> I've had someone with Borderline try to ruin my life and after months of my being nice, comforting her, accepting the blame, and trying to play hero, she tried to hurt me and I finally saw her for what she was. If I was passive, she would have turned my friends against me and ruined my life.
> 
> ...


You're starting to creep me out. What are your own issues?


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## Vexilla Regis (May 4, 2011)

koalaroo said:


> I just wanted to say good luck on your journey, and I'm sorry for what you went through. People with handicaps, disabilities and mental illness tend to be some of the prime targets of abuse and violence. Again, good luck on your journey.


Thank you, you too. I am going to be okay. I am a survivor... I have fallen many times, but I always get back up. I consider myself fortunate, I did not have an easy time growing up, there was a lot of abuse and yes, I had an abusive first marriage. I am fortunate, my life is now far from perfect, but full of respect and healing. I still have months and days full of depression, but "NO" abuse...


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

koalaroo said:


> I do understand that many people with BPD won't seek help or will view everyone else as the problem; this is very common in other mental illnesses as well. The Cluster B personality disorders I listed earlier (antisocial, histrionic, borderline, narcissistic) tend to have a rather high incidence of this. In some cases, this is because of the type of disordered thinking present. In other cases, the stigma attached to treatment and the reception of particular disorders by social workers and the mental health community often makes them reluctant about, indifferent to or hostile towards the idea of treatment.


Interesting. As someone who was once suspected of having Histrionic personality disorder (either I "grew out of it"...personality disorders can lessen with age, or it was inaccurate, because I was later and still am currently diagnosed with mood disorder), I never experienced this myself at all. I would think, though, that people with ASPD and NPD do have a more difficult time...but like, really, should anyone be in a relationship with someone who sincerely lacks empathy? 

My ex won't seek help because he's very extremely anti-establishment. He has never registered to vote, he sees political figures as talking heads, he left school in his late teens to get his G.E.D. and just generally wants nothing to do with the system, though he does have a surprisingly strong sense of neighborhood, community, family and human morality despite all of this. Asking him to see a psychiatrist was a big huge deal, and I first broached the subject as couple's counseling. Then when I went into therapy alone, I thought he might follow my lead. I did everything to refrain from making him feel like "the demonized other" with his illness, within reason.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

@fourtines - You're partially correct. People with BPD and ASPD tend to have the highest rates of stigma against them within the community of mental health professionals. There are some clinicians who absolute refuse to see patients previously diagnosed with BPD, and then oddly there are people who run DBT (which was mostly created to help "compliant" BPD patients) group therapy programs who will refuse to admit patients with BPD because of the prejudice against it, with reasons like: "BPD patients make group therapy sessions difficult." At that point, it really makes you wonder if those people were really actually trained in DBT at all or actually knew its history (if I was in a super silly mood I'd make a Tom Cruise versus Psychiatry and Psychotherapy joke here).

I kind of shake my head at the above reasoning for excluding the BPD patients from group therapy, because the friend I met in DBT sessions who has BPD ... she was the first patient to reach out to me (we were admitted as patients on the same day) and one of the few able to illicit responses from me during group therapy (in a non-manipulative way) that the counselors and social workers generally were completely unable to do. Her list of issues were long: BPD, PTSD (watching a diabetic commit suicide through insulin overdose), and postpartum depression. 

The only problem with her in therapy was during a session on the grieving process, one of the other patients lashed out at her during the course of that session for "talking about death and suicide all of the time." She freaked out at that accusation, which I could totally understand -- since, you know, the session was about the grieving process.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

fourtines said:


> My ex won't seek help because he's very extremely anti-establishment. He has never registered to vote, he sees political figures as talking heads, he left school in his late teens to get his G.E.D. and just generally wants nothing to do with the system, though he does have a surprisingly strong sense of neighborhood, community, family and human morality despite all of this. Asking him to see a psychiatrist was a big huge deal, and I first broached the subject as couple's counseling. Then when I went into therapy alone, I thought he might follow my lead. I did everything to refrain from making him feel like "the demonized other" with his illness, within reason.


It's extremely unfortunate that he wouldn't receive help. I'm glad you tried to avoid compounding the stigma. I'm also glad you got out of the abusive situation. 

Hmm. Also, I could see how someone who was primarily anti-establishment but with a strong sense of community would avoid or refuse mental healthcare.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

koalaroo said:


> It's extremely unfortunate that he wouldn't receive help. I'm glad you tried to avoid compounding the stigma. I'm also glad you got out of the abusive situation.
> 
> Hmm. Also, I could see how someone who was primarily anti-establishment but with a strong sense of community would avoid or refuse mental healthcare.


Well he and I are somewhat similar up to a point: I believe that people are over-diagnosed with ADHD and other illnesses or disorders. I believe that nearly every personality except a healthy ENFJ has been pathologicalized up to a certain point (I'm convinced the Big Five wants everyone to be an ENFJ). 

I'm also wary of people being "over-medicated" even if they do have illnesses. 

But, like, he believes Roky Erickson 

is just "misunderstood." I believe that he has watched too many horror movies about the atrocities that went on in the mental health community until the mid-20th century and simply does not trust them. 

I tried to explain to him that almost no one does "in patient" for more than a few days now, and that things like lobotomies are a thing of the past, and that ECT is rarely prescribed now and only in severe cases and the equipment is different. Hell, I even explained to him that TALK THERAPY is nothing more than TALK THERAPY.

I was like, look, you have severe anger issues and bouts of random violence and its affecting your entire life (and he agreed) and he cried and said he didn't want to hurt me and was afraid he would actually seriously hurt me in a fit of rage.

It doesn't matter. I relinquished any and all sense of "responsibility" toward him.


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## paper lilies (Dec 6, 2011)

Boss said:


> @paper lilies :
> 
> Why are you so offended because people who've dealt with BPD patients have had awful experiences that they have every right to share, in a non-judgmental environment?
> 
> *The most that can be done is, perhaps, a mod adding a disclaimer to the OP that the thread isn't meant to demonize BPD patients.*


It is a judgmental environment- to those who have differing opinions. I'm being judged right now.
I do agree with the part I've bolded. This thread isn't even about discussing how "horrible" a group of people are. It started off with "What are your thoughts on MBTI and Borderline" not "Let's all share experiences and attack people who have an opposing commentary."


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## Vexilla Regis (May 4, 2011)

koalaroo said:


> I just wanted to say good luck on your journey, and I'm sorry for what you went through. People with handicaps, disabilities and mental illness tend to be some of the prime targets of abuse and violence. Again, good luck on your journey.


Good luck to you too... I have been sitting here thinking about why I am such a target. When it all occurred, I was very naive... Growing up with an abusive adoptive Dad, I thought abusive mates were the norm. I guess this is a lesson for those of us who are parents.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

@fourtines - I'm lucky that at the moment with my bipolar disorder I'm able to function with minimal medication if necessary. That said, during the winter and early spring (I also have comorbid SAD), I tend to need lightbox therapy and a bit more medication. I do agree that medication is overly prescribed in some cases.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

koalaroo said:


> @fourtines - I'm lucky that at the moment with my bipolar disorder I'm able to function with minimal medication if necessary. That said, during the winter and early spring (I also have comorbid SAD), I tend to need lightbox therapy and a bit more medication. I do agree that medication is overly prescribed in some cases.


Well I take my medication because I realize that if I fall into a depression I cannot stop crying - and I recognize this under circumstances if I drink excessive amounts of alcohol, my behavior becomes ridiculous, my medication is seemingly rendered ineffective, and I cry and cry and lash out at people who have hurt me in kind of a hypomanic fervor.

I am not deluded in any sense that my medication is necessary for me to be reasonably emotionally balanced. An emotional break-up with a friend and too much wine are enough to show me that I can be triggered into a state that transcends simple grief or anger. This is why I think I was viewed as potentially histrionic at first - my emotions literally overwhelm me, but I show relative clarity otherwise. I don't think my first therapists wanted to look at chemical or neurological causes in the beginning for the reason. Also, I think the doctor who suspected I was histrionic was judging me based upon the fact that I told her I was formerly employed as an adult entertainer.

Anyway, I take the lowest possible dose of my anti-depressant and a relatively low dose of my anti-convulsant. I have medicine for sleep, but I am allowed to choose for myself whether I need it or not, it's not prescribed to me as a daily medication, and I honestly can see where it could be abused by the wrong individual.

That's what goes on, too. There's someone like me who is wary of over-medication, and then there are the kinds of people who would be prescribed an optional sleeping medication and go overdose on it voluntarily.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

@fourtines - That's very true. My main problem with medication is that, for me, it works great at first but can rapidly become ineffective to the point where the dosage is upped and then I do have to switch to something else because I could get to dangerously high levels of the medication. I had to go off of Geodon (which was actually working somewhat well for me) because my brain chemistry hit some ceiling of tolerance to it -- and I hit a level where I started to exhibit the onset of symptoms of tardive diskinesia. 

My doctor has toyed around with the theory that I may be a rapid metabolizer of certain types of medication. 

I am also prescribed sleep medications. Part of the bipolar disorder spectrum seems to be a poorly regulated circadian rhythm.


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## Nitou (Feb 3, 2010)

This is a related concept I learned from the book A General Theory of Love. The limbic brain is the "organ of socialization." (I will get back to the topic in a minute!) All mammals require close social contact at some point in their lives. It is a biological necessity. Deprived of close contact with another (the mother usually), baby rats show metabolic abnormalities, baby monkeys grow up to become violently and irreparably insane, and human infants inevitably die. Some cultures force infants to sleep alone, but this is unnatural and unhealthy.

Given what we know of the long-term effects of child abuse, and the fact that babies will fail to thrive or die if not held and cuddled enough, we can see that the limbic mind is very important. Besides our shared emotional states, we humans influence each other's metabolism and vitality just by being in contact.

My point is that when you are in a close relationship, you touch each other's limbic mind in an intimate way. The first contact is with the parents and other relatives, and later with significant others. Our feeling-minds harmonize with each other in a way, so I do not blame anyone who has been burned and then says "run, run from someone like that." If you are in close contact with a severely damaged feeling-mind, it can very well cause major damage to you too. According to the book, harmony can move toward healing as well. This should usually happen in a therapeutic relationship. (As long as the therapist has examined and dealt with her own issues, or else it can harm the patient.)

The thread opened with an examination of personality type as it correlates to being a victim of abuse from a BPD patient. It isn't a representative sample so I don't know what it's worth, if anything. We all have our own particular pattern of limbic activity, as well as archetypes, projections, etc. It is a risk factor for abuse if you are "slightly wounded" yourself. You have learned since childhood to be consistently empathetic and you're a reasonable person, but something about that person resonates deeply with you and your own history. Perhaps a bad relationship can uncover your own malignancy- and opportunity for growth. It seems to be what happened to some people who posted here. I believe my own episode was triggered by a passionate but painful relationship that awakened some long-repressed beasties in my psyche.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

koalaroo said:


> @fourtines - That's very true. My main problem with medication is that, for me, it works great at first but can rapidly become ineffective to the point where the dosage is upped and then I do have to switch to something else because I could get to dangerously high levels of the medication. I had to go off of Geodon (which was actually working somewhat well for me) because my brain chemistry hit some ceiling of tolerance to it -- and I hit a level where I started to exhibit the onset of symptoms of tardive diskinesia.
> 
> My doctor has toyed around with the theory that I may be a rapid metabolizer of certain types of medication.
> 
> I am also prescribed sleep medications. Part of the bipolar disorder spectrum seems to be a poorly regulated circadian rhythm.


I'm very very lucky (and was told this by my therapist, as a matter of factly) that my medication works for me and continues to work as long as I do not abuse alcohol. 

People IRL actually compliment me on being calm, reasonable and easy to be around. 

However, I must make sure that I get enough sleep for this to be true, and I'm very careful about getting enough sleep as well as not drinking excessively.

It runs in my family, though. My great-aunt was given valium (no joke) for anxiety and also used to drink. It wasn't until the mid-1980's when she was about 60 that her actual mood disorder was diagnosed....after attempting suicide three times. I'm sure the valium didn't help. 

The thing is, people with depression, anxiety, bipolar II, and cyclothymia were only regarded as "nervous" and "sensitive" back in the day and weren't treated as mentally ill.

My mother still doesn't believe I have an illness, because I don't fit her criteria for "crazy."


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

@fourtines - It took my mother going to family group therapy and education sessions for her to understand in any way what I was going through. Previously for her it had been something frustrating to deal with, but she had felt it was her duty to keep me as happy, healthy and safe as possible. She was coping with the day to day fluctuations of my illness (I had an extreme meltdown a few years back), trying to help me keep my daily life in order. I ended up having to point out to her that the interactions were unhealthily bordering on codependency for both of us -- and that's when she finally decided it was time to educate herself on my problems and hers instead of merely dealing with it on the day-to-day basis. My mother is the type of person who feels that the day-to-day lives of the members of my immediate family members who would not work if not for her management and intervention. She's not really too managing, but she really at one point thought the family would fall apart due to my illness and my father's infirmities. 

That said, my original diagnosis of bipolar disorder was not received well by my NPD grandfather at the time that it occurred. Using his personal, generational biases towards mental illness (comments like: "You aren't crazy you're just too immature for college). He was fairly emotionally and verbally abusive towards me after the diagnosis and not supportive of treatment at first. And again, he thought I was bringing shame on him and the family. I'm fortunate that the abuse I suffered was mitigated by my family -- and the fact that I was medicated.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

At any rate, May is mental health awareness month if I remember correctly. I'm thinking of working up some sort of Facebook or internet campaign for it!


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

koalaroo said:


> @fourtines - It took my mother going to family group therapy and education sessions for her to understand in any way what I was going through. Previously for her it had been something frustrating to deal with, but she had felt it was her duty to keep me as happy, healthy and safe as possible. She was coping with the day to day fluctuations of my illness (I had an extreme meltdown a few years back), trying to help me keep my daily life in order. I ended up having to point out to her that the interactions were unhealthily bordering on codependency for both of us -- and that's when she finally decided it was time to educate herself on my problems and hers instead of merely dealing with it on the day-to-day basis. My mother is the type of person who feels that the day-to-day lives of the members of my immediate family members who would not work if not for her management and intervention. She's not really too managing, but she really at one point thought the family would fall apart due to my illness and my father's infirmities.
> 
> That said, my original diagnosis of bipolar disorder was not received well by my NPD grandfather at the time that it occurred. Using his personal, generational biases towards mental illness (comments like: "You aren't crazy you're just too immature for college). He was fairly emotionally and verbally abusive towards me after the diagnosis and not supportive of treatment at first. And again, he thought I was bringing shame on him and the family. I'm fortunate that the abuse I suffered was mitigated by my family -- and the fact that I was medicated.


With my mother it's more along the lines that if she admits something is wrong with me that something may be wrong with her. Her doctor finally got her on medication by saying it was for _her stomach _...and it was an anti-depressant, and I think she has other issues, she's just batshit sometimes...I walked through the living room one night at 3 AM to get something to drink, perfectly innocently, in my nightgown...and she accused me of trying to seduce her husband, who first of all is of no interest to me in the slightest even if he wasn't my mother's husband I mean really just NO, and secondly wasn't even aware I had walked through the living room as he was passed out sleeping. She said she would shoot me if I walked through the living room in my nightgown again while her husband was sleeping.

So, um, yeah.

I love my mother very much and I get along with her fine if we do not live together in the same house, but I am really really glad for all intents and purposes that my maternal grandparents raised me. 

So in my mother's case facing the fact that her "intelligent" daughter could have an emotional illness is potentially facing the fact that she also has some issues of her own, and that her anti-depressant isn't for her stomach.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

paper lilies said:


> It is a judgmental environment- to those who have differing opinions. I'm being judged right now.
> I do agree with the part I've bolded. This thread isn't even about discussing how "horrible" a group of people are. It started off with "What are your thoughts on MBTI and Borderline" not "Let's all share experiences and attack people who have an opposing commentary."


The thread is about discussing the correlation between MBTI type and being on the receiving *end of abuse by BPD patients.* It's not my problem that you interpret it as an "an attack on people with opposing commentary" . The point that BPD patients shouldn't be demonized had already been made and discussed, at length. Parts of your posts were just flogging a dead horse. 

'Opposing commentary' has been critiqued, and with good reason, in places where it was found disrespectful and counter-productive. Koalaroo and I had an extended discussion where we come to a consensus on using non-dismissive and respectful language when communicating with BPD abuse survivors. You can't draw attention towards mental health stigma by devaluing experiences of abuse. It's very clear that you have an emotional attachment to the subject because of your ex. You can feel strongly about something and emphatically express your opinions without minimizing what others are going through.


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## paper lilies (Dec 6, 2011)

Boss said:


> The thread is about discussing the correlation between MBTI type and being on the receiving *end of abuse by BPD patients.* It's not my problem that you interpret it as an "an attack on people with opposing commentary" . The point that BPD patients shouldn't be demonized had already been made and discussed, at length. Parts of your posts were just flogging a dead horse.
> 
> 'Opposing commentary' has been critiqued, and with good reason, in places where it was found disrespectful and counter-productive. Koalaroo and I had an extended discussion where we come to a consensus on using non-dismissive and respectful language when communicating with BPD abuse survivors. You can't draw attention towards mental health stigma by devaluing experiences of abuse. It's very clear that you have an emotional attachment to the subject because of your ex. You can feel strongly about something and emphatically express your opinions without minimizing what others are going through.


I wasn't down-playing abuse. That's a very cruel accusation.
Abuse is a very serious issue. Nor was I trying to minimize what others have been through.
I was simply stating that there's more to it on some angles that meets the eye. That's it.
There's no need to get riled up over it.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

[email protected] 'riled up' 
You're saying that I am getting riled up over 'it', when it's you who felt "incredibly offended" and called the thread a place for "let's all *attack *this horrible group of people" type discussion. The lack of awareness here is astounding. 
I am not 'accusing' you. I am telling you how your words come across (dismissive and disrespectful), and there was a better way of showing that there was another angle to it all. Take it for what it is or move on. I am done with this pointless discussion. Have a good day.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

double post


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## paper lilies (Dec 6, 2011)

Boss said:


> [email protected] 'riled up'
> You're saying that I am getting riled up over 'it', when it's you who felt "incredibly offended" and called the thread a place for "let's all *attack *this horrible group of people" type discussion. The lack of awareness here is astounding.
> I am not 'accusing' you. I am telling you how your words come across (dismissive and disrespectful), and there was a better way of showing that there was another angle to it all. Take it for what it is or move on. I am done with this pointless discussion. Have a good day.


Making fun of my use of words isn't a productive use of time. It's quite childish.
I didn't say "this horrible group of people" I said "attacking those with opposing commentary".
I was incredibly offended by the overwhelming negativity.
I also did not read through this entire thread before posting as most humans do not have the daily time to either. The original post was about statistics- yes but not a demonizing view of the personable inside. Perhaps I did miss a lot and if my words came across dismissive and disrespectful, that was truly not my intention. You also did not have to be so cold in your responses to me nor did you have to as I've said, mock my wording choice.


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## Sheppard (Jul 4, 2011)

paper lilies said:


> Making fun of my use of words isn't a productive use of time. It's quite childish.
> I didn't say "this horrible group of people" I said "attacking those with opposing commentary".
> I was incredibly offended by the overwhelming negativity.
> I also did not read through this entire thread before posting as most humans do not have the daily time to either. The original post was about statistics- yes but not a demonizing view of the personable inside. Perhaps I did miss a lot and if my words came across dismissive and disrespectful, that was truly not my intention. You also did not have to be so cold in your responses to me nor did you have to as I've said, mock my wording choice.


It was my comment you were offended with, mostly, right? 

Tell me, what is it that you want? Is it possible that you would like me to be more empathetic towards people who suffer from borderline personality disorder?


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## paper lilies (Dec 6, 2011)

Sheppard said:


> It was my comment you were offended with, mostly, right?
> 
> Tell me, what is it that you want? Is it possible that you would like me to be more empathetic towards people who suffer from borderline personality disorder?


No, I am sure it appeared that way because I did quote you first.
I used something you said as an example- I wasn't trying to slash at your story.
It honestly wasn't my intention to do so.

Also, no. Humans have he right to be empathetic and non-empathetic toward anything they choose.
Perhaps I came on a bit strong and lost the point I was _trying_ to make.
Obviously you are not going to feel empathy toward someone who has impacted your life negatively.
Especially if it gave repercussions of trauma- be it physical, emotional or what have you.

I was offended because people with any disorder aren't all bad.
There are some that are, there are some that are not.
I met someone that was abused by her bipolar ex partner. 
She could very well have said or thought "everyone with bipolar is abusive" but she knows that they're not.
Just like not everyone with BPD is abusive. 
As I believe you said before, with help- it can improve and be controlled.
However, some people refuse help which is where I'm sure this all stems from.
I _personally_ (which is what I should have stated from the beginning) feel that things like this give the people that really, truly try and really work hard to beat it and work to have successful relationships a really bad name.
Though, I will admit my posts were a bit misplaced.


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## Sheppard (Jul 4, 2011)

paper lilies said:


> No, I am sure it appeared that way because I did quote you first.
> I used something you said as an example- I wasn't trying to slash at your story.
> It honestly wasn't my intention to do so.
> 
> ...


The reason I was asking was because it's the kind of thing that from a moral standpoint would make sense to someone who hasn't been in those shoes. Empathizing with peoples struggles in generally a good thing, right?

The thing is, that in this case, it is exactly that what can get you into hells kitchen. Imagine, if you can, that your empathy is not a source of interpersonal connectedness, but now chains, that bind you in a terrible terrible place. Eventually, as such a person, in such a situation, you force upon yourself some selfishness with great effort, and you break free. And then someone comes along and says, because from a general moral standpoint it's the kind of thing that would make sense, one should have more empathy with them, be more understanding.

The first reaction then would be, no way, no how. Been there, done that. Nope. That's why I asked, and why I told someone earlier that this might not be the proper audience for that kind of statement. 

There are some support forums around the web that allow both borderliners and borderline survivors at the same time, and I kid you not, it comes across, from the interactions there between one group and the other, like a support forum for child molesters and the children they molested, with the latter always being told that they should be more tolerant, and accepting, and should look at themselves for fault, where they can't talk about their experiences without being but on trial for the wrong that they have done. It's just so mindbogglingly idiotic from a conceptual viewpoint that this is even possible. Thankfully, though, there are groups that understand this, or have had enough bad experiences, to enforce some segregation. It's really needed, at least until one has completely processed the experience and learned to establish and defend boundaries that they couldn't before. 

In any case, that's why I asked.


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## paper lilies (Dec 6, 2011)

@Sheppard I definitely understand where you're coming from now. Thank you for taking the time to calmly explain it to me with a rather impressive example. Instead of the harsh way that others responded- that just further escalated the road to no where.


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## IndigoOceans (Jan 20, 2012)

These individuals have a chance but its like anything else- it depends on the will of the individual to enhance their life and for their desire to positively impact their existence..DBT and CBT are two effective types of treatment..being in a relationship with these individuals is tough but its not impossible.


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

IndigoOceans said:


> These individuals have a chance but its like anything else- it depends on the will of the individual to enhance their life and for their desire to positively impact their existence..DBT and CBT are two effective types of treatment..being in a relationship with these individuals is tough but its not impossible.


While that's probably true. . . 

It would be an utter disaster to attempt to date someone and be their therapist simultaneously. The two roles clash heavily.


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## Hunny Bunny (Jan 12, 2011)

fourtines said:


> Well here is what you may not understand about BPD, though. People who are Borderline often don't want help, or think everyone else is the problem. This is part of what makes it so toxic to be in a relationship with them.
> 
> I was in a relationship for six years with a man who has BPD. At first, I thought he was just _immature_. "Oh he'll grow out of this, anyway, he'd never actually hurt me." I didn't realize it was borderline personality for several years, but I knew something was terribly wrong. Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. He either loved me beyond compare (this is the "false worship" some people refer to earlier in the thread) or he treated me like garbage. He also had some traits that people will see in narcissists, but I think one of the primary differences with people with BPD from narcissists is that (thankfully) at least they are capable of empathy for other people and will actually feel bad for other people.
> 
> ...




First of all, I wanted to thank @fourtines for this ^^ post. It sounds very similar to what I went through with my ex-spouse for many many many years. We were together a total of 12 years, almost 8 years married by the time I left. The whole time we were together I didn't know anything about BPD or that he had it (yes, he has been clinically diagnosed). 

Looking back, I really don't know why I stayed with him throughout all those years. Yes, I know - hindsight is always 20/20. We had a whirlwind romance. When things were good, they were really, really, really good. Amazing. Cloud 9! When things were bad, they were really, reall,y really bad. Couldn't be worse. His emotional and verbal abuse was so bad that I usually ended up a crying heap in the corner; just feeling so alone and wanting to die. It didn't help matters that I didn't have hardly any friends or family to turn to nearby (which is how he wanted it). I moved across the country and away from my family to be with him and give him my all. When things got really bad between us, he always had me believing it was my fault. And, as the caring compassionate, giving person that I am - I really thought it was my fault. So I would try harder and harder to please him and make him happy. I didn't know that in essence, I was rewarding bad behavior and enabling him to behave more badly. For some reason he convinced me that he was the only person in the world who would love me and understand me the way I needed it. 

I'm not going to spell out the whole nasty situation here, but BPD is nothing to mess around with. I just wish I knew then what I know now. I have read countless articles that say the best way to heal from an abusive relationship is cutting off contact with the abuser. I agree with this wholeheartedly and am actually in the process of moving to another state to get away from my ex and finally be able to live near family again for a strong support system for me and my daughter.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Hunny Bunny said:


> First of all, I wanted to thank @_fourtines_ for this ^^ post. It sounds very similar to what I went through with my ex-spouse for many many many years. We were together a total of 12 years, almost 8 years married by the time I left. The whole time we were together I didn't know anything about BPD or that he had it (yes, he has been clinically diagnosed).
> 
> Looking back, I really don't know why I stayed with him throughout all those years. Yes, I know - hindsight is always 20/20. We had a whirlwind romance. When things were good, they were really, really, really good. Amazing. Cloud 9! When things were bad, they were really, reall,y really bad. Couldn't be worse. His emotional and verbal abuse was so bad that I usually ended up a crying heap in the corner; just feeling so alone and wanting to die. It didn't help matters that I didn't have hardly any friends or family to turn to nearby (which is how he wanted it). I moved across the country and away from my family to be with him and give him my all. When things got really bad between us, he always had me believing it was my fault. And, as the caring compassionate, giving person that I am - I really thought it was my fault. So I would try harder and harder to please him and make him happy. I didn't know that in essence, I was rewarding bad behavior and enabling him to behave more badly. For some reason he convinced me that he was the only person in the world who would love me and understand me the way I needed it.
> 
> I'm not going to spell out the whole nasty situation here, but BPD is nothing to mess around with. I just wish I knew then what I know now. I have read countless articles that say the best way to heal from an abusive relationship is cutting off contact with the abuser. I agree with this wholeheartedly and am actually in the process of moving to another state to get away from my ex and finally be able to live near family again for a strong support system for me and my daughter.


*hug*

So sorry to hear this, you thought you could be better to make him better, that's the worse. I tried to "fix" my ex, sometimes by confronting him and trying to give him a taste of his own medicine, I was fortunate to not ALWAYS blame myself (though maybe I should have left sooner than I did). Sometimes I feel relieved to not be an Fe type, because they seem to take responsibility for other people's feelings and behavior a lot more. I mean I do sometimes, but I was more aware that his own past and feelings inside were making him do the things he did many times (though not every time). Still, I thought I could heal him somehow, I guess, or re-parent him and ...yeah, no.

I grew up and realized that he either needed to get therapy, or I needed to leave, and that was that. It was SOOOO hard, though. So hard. 

It really is not something to mess around with, and I don't ever see myself repeating a pattern or being with someone with his exact issues again, and we've been broken up for years now and I haven't found myself with anyone quite like him, or anyone terribly angry or violent, so I feel relieved that my own ventures into therapy really have helped me.


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## SuburbanLurker (Sep 26, 2010)

I recently left a relationship with a girl who I strongly suspect has BPD, and I have to agree with the "run like hell" side of this debate, especially if the person is unwilling to get help, like my ex. It may seem harsh, and maybe it perpetuates a stigma, but the reality of the situation is that if you stay with them you _will_ become emotionally destroyed (unless you yourself are the type who lacks any form of emotion/empathy and are in it for the sex alone).

I was the only one who understood her, I was the only person who cared about her, I was the only one who could help her. She had no real friends, her parents were abusive, she was bullied in school, no one in her life had ever called her pretty except me, no one had ever truly loved her except me. She told me me that if I ever left her she'd go crazy and kill herself (blatant emotional blackmail disguised as love). Is any of it true though?

What this really serves to do is pretty obvious in hindsight - it makes you feel important, needed, loved, in an intense way that you'd probably never felt before. That way you'll never leave, right? That way she can shatter your self esteem and rip your guts out verbally over petty imperfections and honest mistakes on a weekly or even daily basis. She can manipulate you, prey on your empathy, treat you coldly and cruelly, withhold affection, and you still won't leave, because the other half of the time she seems to love you more than anything. She seems to need you like she needs oxygen. Where else will you find that sort of validation and purpose in life? Congratulations, you're now officially a shadow of your former self, isolated from your family and friends (she'll always make herself look like _your_ victim to the outside world, because she is after all the eternal victim of life). You're now a hostage in the truest sense of the word, and the longer you stay, the more of yourself you lose; the harder it will be to escape the pull of this emotional vampire. Many don't. Many kill themselves, or live the rest of their lives docile and numb.

It's humiliating, degrading, and shameful to admit that you fell in love with someone who couldn't care less about you as a human being; who in actual fact will have forgotten about you and moved on to a new victim within days or weeks of the relationship ending (days in my case). It makes you question so much about yourself, most of all asking how you could have let it get to that point, why you didn't heed the abundant red flags in the beginning. Chances are you aren't psychologically sound to have fallen into this trap. In my case, when I met her I was utterly alone, in a very bad mental state, and that's enough to overlook some 'small' imperfections at first, and get emotionally attached before realizing admitting to yourself that something is seriously wrong. 

BPD is a serious disorder - and people who have it no doubt feel huge amounts emotional pain and are very much victims of the disorder. I can't say how much of what they do is conscious or unconscious, but it doesn't really matter in a sense. Consciously allowing yourself to be used by them under a guise of 'love' is nothing short of codependent and masochistic. Heed the warnings and forget about political correctness. If they're unwilling to get help, that's entirely their own fault.


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## Hunny Bunny (Jan 12, 2011)

@SuburbanLurker - thank you so much for sharing your story. It sounds all too familiar for me, so I can relate and I truly feel your pain. How long has is been for you since the breakup and did she try to reunite with you at all?

Also - has anyone else noticed that people with BPD often complain about something being physically wrong with them almost all the time, i.e. stomachache, old injury flaring up, etc... especially at the worst times, like at social gatherings, and used as an excuse to isolate you & them from the rest of the people in attendance? Anyone have thoughts on this?


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

Hunny Bunny said:


> Also - has anyone else noticed that people with BPD often complain about something being physically wrong with them almost all the time, i.e. stomachache, old injury flaring up, etc... especially at the worst times, like at social gatherings, and used as an excuse to isolate you & them from the rest of the people in attendance? Anyone have thoughts on this?


This can be common with people with general mental illness, not specifically borderline personality disorder, but it can be especially true of people with severe social anxiety disorders. If a person with borderline had comorbid social anxiety disorder, I could definitely see this coming out as an issue. Since borderline has one of the highest comorbidity rates out of the mental health disorders, again I could see it in this case. Although, I have seen people with borderline be accused of faking illness, etc. I'm not sure if it's malingering or not, or if it's the comorbidity issue.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

NT's are overly represented in the study for several reasons. 
First, Erbse points out some major reasons.
Second because Nt's are more likely to look to the internet in order to find diagnosis. Note how the ENTJ is not well represented - the ENTJ doesn't tend to do random research, and the ENTJ is unable to FIX or adjust the BPD person.

The BPD person does not do what they do with some purpose, they just do it because that is what they are. 

Accept them, love them if they are close family, and like them as allowed. 

My family talks about the 'hate lottery' - sometimes randomly your number comes up, and it is your turn to be hated, yet still loved. A BPD person who understands and lives unconditional love can be a confusing thing. Not yours to fix, nor adjust, nor even understand, but rather to just accept.


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

I have a lot of BPD tendencies, and I love other people with the same 

In fact, everyone in this thread add me as a friend haha.


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

Nothing wrong with borderline personalities

We just call it a disorder when they don't cope properly, such as, 

If they dont meditate instead of vent on other people in their down periods

But if they do have some control, then they can be the most inspiring leaders ever when they are up


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

The Nurturing narcissist said:


> Nothing wrong with borderline personalities
> 
> We just call it a disorder when they don't cope properly, such as,
> 
> ...


good luck with that.


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

drmiller100 said:


> good luck with that.


Well thanks saying as I'm a pretty successful individual.

Careful buddy.


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## SuburbanLurker (Sep 26, 2010)

The Nurturing narcissist said:


> Nothing wrong with borderline personalities
> 
> We just call it a disorder when they don't cope properly, such as,
> 
> ...


I don't think you really know what BPD is. The defining characteristic of BPD is the inability to regulate emotions. Anyone who can meditate their emotional distress away and not let it interfere with their lives does not have BPD by definition.


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

SuburbanLurker said:


> I don't think you really know what BPD is. The defining characteristic of BPD is the inability to regulate emotions. Anyone who can meditate their emotional distress away and not let it interfere with their lives does not have BPD by definition.


i did say that we call it a disorder when they cant cope, and that there is nothing wrong with borderline personalities (without a disorder)

but i hear ya for sure


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## purposive (Jun 4, 2013)

I can handle most personality disorders but borderline personality disorder is the exception.


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## Erbse (Oct 15, 2010)

The Nurturing narcissist said:


> i did say that we call it a disorder when they cant cope, and that there is nothing wrong with borderline personalities (without a disorder)


There are is no 'borderline personalities' without a disorder - unless of course you're sociopath, they perhaps could pull that one off. Then again, that'd be a disorder again.

Before talking any further however, I suggest you to take a look at the deeper seated issues that BPD entails and you'll see as to why what you're saying is pseudo lovey-dovey "we're all okay" - crap. Once you've understood the underlying principles of the disorder chances are you'll just flat shit your pants assuming you're able to just for a second imagine how life would be if you had no true identity. 

I understand your point of many diagnoses being irrelevant or outright inexistent unless a person actually suffers from it (Depression, Schizoid, ADHD etc.) but BPD isn't one of those. They're doomed for a life time of internal restlessness, terror and turmoil. Although there seem to be very few cases that have successfully 'beat' BPD and found their peace (outside of suicide) - they're only a very slim minority, though. BPD isn't for nothing officially listed as 'incurable' rather than 'treatable' and often times for a life-time.


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

Erbse said:


> There are is no 'borderline personalities' without a disorder.


semantics. i appreciate the attempt to educate the public

but i was simply talking about an adjective

try to creatively think about how it might be useful to say someone has a borderline personality, but not so bad that they are classified as a disorder

almost as if the behaviors associated could be put on a percentage based scale

this is all obvious though and i dont see any point in debating semantics

i don't care enough to talk more about it, but i've already done a ton of research on the subject, on my own and in grad school, but i guess your suggestion was pretty obvious too

i suggest taking a dont state the obvious pill ;D


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## Erbse (Oct 15, 2010)

The Nurturing narcissist said:


> i suggest taking a dont state the obvious pill ;D


Well, it'd be hardly necessary if you didn't go out of your way and spout rather uneducated BS - It only gets worse if what you said of having studied it already was in fact true.

Then again, studying != understanding.

But alas, that's pearls for the swine.

However, ignorance is a choice and none I've any influence over. :mellow:


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

drmiller100 said:


> good luck with that.


Why all or nothing, black and white approach? 

I can bet a good chunk of the population exhibits some borderline traits at some points throughout their lives and some borderlines are worse than others. There are people who undergo DBT treatment and they only have traits of the disorder rather than suffering with the whole DSM list.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

mushr00m said:


> Why all or nothing, black and white approach?
> 
> I can bet a good chunk of the population exhibits some borderline traits at some points throughout their lives and some borderlines are worse than others. There are people who undergo DBT treatment and they only have traits of the disorder rather than suffering with the whole DSM list.


"good luck with that" implies i'm letting you take your idea, go forth into the world, and i wish you the best. 

just for grins, calling yourself pregnant because you share some of the traits associated with pregnant does not indeed make you pregnant. 

saying you have some of the traits of a BPD person does not make you bpd. 

if you were truly BPD you would not be quibbling - you would be living the split and righteously indignant.


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

Erbse said:


> Well, it'd be hardly necessary if you didn't go out of your way and spout rather uneducated BS - It only gets worse if what you said of having studied it already was in fact true.
> 
> Then again, studying != understanding.
> 
> ...


Someone that doesn't meet the criteria for a disorder but still displays a lot of behaviors associated with BPD, could be said to have a bordeline personality yet not a disorder.

It doesn't take an education to understand this.

Now, can you tell me what benefit I will have from having a pointless semantic battle with you on the internet now?


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

drmiller100 said:


> saying you have some of the traits of a BPD person does not make you bpd.
> 
> if you were truly BPD you would not be quibbling - you would be living the split and righteously indignant.


"Truly BPD" could still mean a lot of things. You can be more BPD and less BPD, some BPD people are worse than others. 

I think you realize that though. No one is actually disagreeing about BPD I dont' think.

We just seem to be disagreeing about who knows more. Lmao.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

The Nurturing narcissist said:


> S
> 
> Now, can you tell me what benefit I will have from having a pointless semantic battle with you on the internet now?


yet u persist.

say it some more, and it will still be incorrect. bpd is a medical condition. you can't sort of have it kind of, just like you can't be sort of pregnant.


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

drmiller100 said:


> yet u persist.
> 
> say it some more, and it will still be incorrect. bpd is a medical condition. you can't sort of have it kind of, just like you can't be sort of pregnant.


Please look into the difference between a theoretical definition and an operational definition.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

drmiller100 said:


> "good luck with that" implies i'm letting you take your idea, go forth into the world, and i wish you the best.
> 
> just for grins, calling yourself pregnant because you share some of the traits associated with pregnant does not indeed make you pregnant.
> 
> ...


I liked your pregnant example :laughing:

But people with some of the traits of BPD doesn't include emotional dysregulation?


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## candra (Jun 21, 2013)

I know two people who got involved with BPD females. Both were INTJ men. Thankfully both escaped and are now with ladies that are much healthier and happier.


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

SuburbanLurker said:


> I don't think you really know what BPD is. The defining characteristic of BPD is the inability to regulate emotions. Anyone who can meditate their emotional distress away and not let it interfere with their lives does not have BPD by definition.


I roomed with someone for a year who had BPD (I didn't know when we met), and the last six months were harrowing. That period started (after a lot of weird tense encounters) with a kind of bizarre suicide attempt that wasn't (like, she cut herself enough to leave blood everywhere in the bathroom, then vanished so I had no clue whether she was alive or dead, but went to another town to her brother's to hole up and couldn't understand why I was so freaked out when I finally found her a day later; she acted like nothing had happened). Things got worse and worse after that. She was an ISFP and now after some years of treatment, she's gotten some emotion regulation and is the sweet person I always knew she was if she hadn't been dealing with it.... but the emotional intensity of those months almost drove me to the breaking point, I couldn't stabilize her and in fact was being destabilized by her; when the lease was up, I left and didn't look back, because I had nothing left myself. (And typically I am very stable and low-key, I grew up in a situation where I had to be stable to keep my family sane.)

It seemed like using any of my natural rational instincts just made things worse. Drawing boundaries made them worse. Not drawing made them worse. There was nothing I could do to improve things, everything was twisted around to support whatever ideas her emotional state was feeding her. So frustrating, so painful. I'm really glad she found a therapist (I think she eventually even did some in-patient stuff) that could help her work through the hardest parts.


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## Pixzelina (May 25, 2013)

I've taken a few tests online for BPD. I generally score pretty high on them, but I don't know.


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

Online tests don't really count for a lot. They sample for traits that mirror for traits of personality disorders, but it's like the difference between just being generally sad vs so depressed for months you forget to eat and can't hold down a job. If you have a real personality disorder, it is likely threatening to make your life entirely unmanageable. 

I had a real bad spot with some Avoidant style behaviors in my early adulthood; I don't know if I would have been diagnosed because I still managed to hold a marriage together and keep my job going, but it was not much fun -- going into public was a huge anxiety issue and I would even duck down halls without thinking if I heard someone coming, because the thought of having them look at me was unbearably stressful. Like I said, I don't know if that would have been official Avoidant; it just mirrored some traits of Avoidant, but I was capable of pushing through. With bad personality disorders, the person can't get perspective enough to keep a grip on things and properly interpret reality. Eventually everything spirals out of control.


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## JoanCrawford (Sep 27, 2012)

Jennywocky said:


> Online tests don't really count for a lot. They sample for traits that mirror for traits of personality disorders, but it's like the difference between just being generally sad vs so depressed for months you forget to eat and can't hold down a job. If you have a real personality disorder, it is likely threatening to make your life entirely unmanageable.
> 
> I had a real bad spot with some Avoidant style behaviors in my early adulthood; I don't know if I would have been diagnosed because I still managed to hold a marriage together and keep my job going, but it was not much fun -- going into public was a huge anxiety issue and I would even duck down halls without thinking if I heard someone coming, because the thought of having them look at me was unbearably stressful. Like I said, I don't know if that would have been official Avoidant; it just mirrored some traits of Avoidant, but I was capable of pushing through. With bad personality disorders, the person can't get perspective enough to keep a grip on things and properly interpret reality.


I'm trying to determine if my family member has this... She has been diagnosed with Autism, Bipolar Disorder, ADD, etc. She is still quite young (about 10) but she has intense episodes of extreme rage and outbursts which include flailing of legs and arms, crying, whining, screaming and hitting. She also is manipulative, and her opinion of people changes from time to time. Like, one day she will claim to "love" someone and the next she will hate them.


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

JoanCrawford said:


> I'm trying to determine if my family member has this... She has been diagnosed with Autism, Bipolar Disorder, ADD, etc. She is still quite young (about 10) but she has intense episodes of extreme rage and outbursts which include flailing of legs and arms, crying, whining, screaming and hitting. She also is manipulative, and her opinion of people changes from time to time. Like, one day she will claim to "love" someone and the next she will hate them.


You meant the borderline? (not the avoidant)

I'm not qualified to really tell, especially because of her age; I don't recall if they have a different symptom list for kids vs adults. And since she's been diagnosed with other things, it's hard to tell what belongs to what. But I think those traits CAN be expressed by borderlines, in my experience. That's about all I can say.

One of the points of contention between my roommate and I didn't get along was because she had me on a pedestal in her head + hated me because of how I did not seem to acknowledge her the way she wanted to be acknowledged. That love/hate thing is one of the typical expressions of borderline. I had no idea that she had these expectations; one moment she was overly kind and nice to the point where I'd almost get irritated because I'd want her just to be normal and not so overly gracious (it almost felt fake to me), then suddenly she was literally hissing and sputtering because of what an evil nasty person I was and how much i despised and hated her. The shift could occur within a second or two. 

I was so bewildered, especially in the beginning; naturally you wonder what you did to bring that kind of response, and it takes a while to realize you really didn't do anything wrong (aside from typical mistakes we might make daily in our relationships, that we fix by communicating about them). She had a lot of trouble communicating her feelings; she actually was a good writer about things not related to her, but she couldn't articulate her own feelings.

But nothing i said or explained seemed to matter, and in fact it was a no winner - if you did not respond, then you were ignoring her, and if you did respond, well, then you were trying to undermine her, and you'd end up in an argument that could last a few hours and leave such a pall over the house you'd want to leave and never come back. It was hard to live under all that tension, never knowing whether the quiet moments meant everything was actually okay or whether out of the blue she'd just freak and come at me with something that had been harboring for days/weeks. It was so unpredictable.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

I think I met one woman with BPD, after weeks of trying to fix her (trying to convince her to get help) and she threatening with suicide several times where I was freaking out that she would kill herself...I just flat out abandoned her thinking she won't die....(I started to not care, self preservation turned priority). The situation turned really bad where I couldn't sleep at night due to guilt, cold sweatis, the works :S.

You know what happened? <.< she found another sap lol and I got the fuck out, ran as far and as fast as I could. I never looked back and will avoid anything similar in the future *IN A HEARTBEAT REGARDLESS OF HOW MUCH I FEEL LIKE "SAVING".*


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

JoanCrawford said:


> I'm trying to determine if my family member has this... She has been diagnosed with Autism, Bipolar Disorder, ADD, etc. She is still quite young (about 10) but she has intense episodes of extreme rage and outbursts which include flailing of legs and arms, crying, whining, screaming and hitting. She also is manipulative, and her opinion of people changes from time to time. Like, one day she will claim to "love" someone and the next she will hate them.


I did that when I was a kid but I out-grew it. I was easily overwhelmed, felt unloved, and felt stressed I guess. But there wasn't any real reason for it. Maybe I was depressed but that's how my life was at the time; no one would understand why I felt that way; but honestly it was probably more a low stress gauge. As i got older I got better at handling it. but I don't think it was a disorder.

I think labeling kids when they're too young is really bad for them. At some ages, it's simply too young to tell. There needs to be a long standing pattern, and adults often look to find behaviors in kids and label them and project too much onto them. They want to "fix" kids and read disorders onto them. But the problem is kids are sensitive to how they are labeled and perceived and will both internalize adult perspectives and resent them because they want to be free to define themself. Labeling a kid could perpetuate a problem that could have been avoided. It also sucks cause it's kind of a way of shaming or labeling an entire person who is just burgeoning and becoming what the will, it's almost a death to their sense of self.

Not trying to criticize you, perhaps your observations fit, I don't know, but speaking in general.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

JoanCrawford said:


> I'm trying to determine if my family member has this... She has been diagnosed with Autism, Bipolar Disorder, ADD, etc. She is still quite young (about 10) but she has intense episodes of extreme rage and outbursts which include flailing of legs and arms, crying, whining, screaming and hitting. She also is manipulative, and her opinion of people changes from time to time. Like, one day she will claim to "love" someone and the next she will hate them.


As a note, my psychiatrist rarely diagnoses people under 16 with personality disorders. By the way, when my bipolar disorder started to manifest at 12, I devolved into throwing tantrums when I hadn't thrown one since I was two or three. However, my rage stemmed from being emotionally and verbally abused by a teacher (and she I suspect has BPD.)


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

FreeBeer said:


> I think I met one woman with BPD, after weeks of trying to fix her (trying to convince her to get help) and she threatening with suicide several times where I was freaking out that she would kill herself...I just flat out abandoned her thinking she won't die....(I started to not care, self preservation turned priority). The situation turned really bad where I couldn't sleep at night due to guilt, cold sweatis, the works :S.
> 
> You know what happened? <.< she found another sap lol and I got the fuck out, ran as far and as fast as I could. I never looked back and will avoid anything similar in the future *IN A HEARTBEAT REGARDLESS OF HOW MUCH I FEEL LIKE "SAVING".*


yeah, it's really beyond anyone to "save," especially in the context of a personal relationship. A detached third-party profession has the best chance to make an impact, and they're trained for it and can get space from it regularly rather than being enmeshed 24/7.

Typically there will be suicide attempts, but not usually enough to actually result in death. The goal seems to be to get people to respond and affirm. But you just don't know that for sure, ever, if you're one of the loved ones, so it's just harrowing and exhausting to face.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

I'm a smart guy, capable of fixing many things. 
I cannot make the sun rise in the west in the morning, and I cannot help someone with BPD. 

Trained professionals with years and years of experience, every bit as smart and much more gifted in the realm of human psyche cannot help those with BPD. Drugs don't work. Therapy does not work, Love does not work. Nothing works.

If you are stuck with a loved one who you must deal with for many years with BPD, know you are not alone. You cannot fix them. You cannot help them. 

You can love them. From a safe distance.

You can listen as you are able, and you can keep your distance and build boundaries and you can do what you can. But don't let it destroy your life, and don't let it prevent you from your life.


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## StElmosDream (May 26, 2012)

Seems too close to situational data when the statistics for INFJs appear not to define a cause or correlative factors well enough to be very accurate for wider populations (in this case self titled BPD?).


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## ENTPreneur (Dec 13, 2009)

Co-dependency.... I see it all around me and have been there myself. The notion of normal moving so slowly that you don't notice where you end up; usually a place so far gone that you would rear and kick if someone asked you to go there when you were your original you.

It is better do take your stand and draw the lines while you have the energy to defend them (that is, as soon as abusive behavior appears) than to wait until you are a worn out, drained wreck yourself.

The horrible thing is that it often is the most empathetic people who gets shafted... Or perhaps xNTJs due to the fact that they like the worship part and BELIEVE that they can ignore the emotional... But the strategy will change and they will get bent too.

One can burn oneself trying to save them from fire..... But if it is they who are flaming, it is hard. 

Distance yourselves emotionally IF you wish to help. If you cannot do that (and it is hard) then run. Staying WILL hurt you, and/or change you forever.


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## Fredward (Sep 21, 2013)

As BPD 'survivors' you'd think they'd choose something less bitchy to call themselves.


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