# Vegetarians / Vegans



## SpaceCadette (Apr 29, 2010)

I don't eat much meat and have tons of veggies and vegans in my life. To each their own. If I ever stop eating meat it will be for spiritual reasons, but as far as escaping all products made from animals, it is impossible (see above link from @prplchknz)


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## Brian1 (May 7, 2011)

I challenge militant vegetarians to eat meat for two months? When you come right down to it meat has amino acids and protein which are good for you. I guess the reason why I'm saying this is I buy a lot of Amy's products. I'll admit I need my vegetables, and they are all vegetarian dishes, glutton free too. And I know I need more of those in my diet. I eat a lot of them,and yet despite this good deed for the health conscious, I find myself feeling empty in the ol stomach region. So, if Vegetarians eating meat every now and then makes people throw up, then I think there's a universal theme of how people may or may not be able to eat fulfilled when they eat fish out of water, as the cliche goes.


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## Lady Starbird (Oct 16, 2011)

snail said:


> I am a vegetarian. As soon as I am on my own, and no longer dependent on others for my food, I plan to become a vegan for moral reasons. Right now, I have to fight just to be a vegetarian, since those who provide for me see it as a form of pickiness, and try to change me accordingly. I am grateful that they support me at all, but this does not change the fact that I am angry that they think it is okay to harm animals. I am angry that it is still legal to kill animals for food, and that most restaurants offer mostly meat-based entrees, treating vegetarians as some kind of exception. Vegans have it even worse, because it is common for restaurants to offer nothing at all that they can eat. Vegans and Vegetarians end up stuck in situations where they must shop at stores that support the killing of animals, that offer meat products as options. We end up giving our money to people who are likely to use it for evil. We must live with the knowledge that buying a salad at a steakhouse still supports the slaughter of animals. We are burdened by the constant awareness, haunted by the far-reaching implications of every choice we make while other people seem not to care at all, and often tease us for it, shoving their meat in our faces to watch us react.
> 
> Vegans should be in the majority, and the fact that they aren't is very disturbing to me. It means that the world has no conscience.
> 
> As often as I have been picked on for my vegetarianism, teased for it, argued with, belittled and shamed, I find that being outspoken about it comes naturally for me, whether I intended to bring it up or not. Someone will say "Why are you ordering salad? This juicy steak is delicious," and my natural response is, "I am a vegetarian," which then leads to questions, accusations, fighting, and a lot of attempted coercion. If the person asks why I don't eat meat, I will say without hesitation, "I believe that animals have a right not to be murdered for our temporary sensory pleasure. I am against violence, and I feel that eating meat is evil." That never goes over well. I inevitably get attacked for it. However, I remain true to my convictions. I refuse to lie, or to offer a less controversial explanation for my choice. My real reason is perfectly valid, whether it is accepted or not.


Thank you. ♥


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## Lady Starbird (Oct 16, 2011)

taptap said:


> This post is only half serious but it carries a very important point so read through it and see what you think:
> _*[1.]*_ To the people who claim that omnivores lack a conscience, I'll say that then you shouldn't be shocked with what I'm about to do to you! I'm kidding, but I reserve my conscience for my own species. They way I do for love! Oh, that's a good point. _*[2.]*_ You see, vegetarianism is a form of bestiality. Why? Because bestiality is sexual attraction to animals. Vegetarianism is feeling sorry for animals! But sexual attraction and conscience are evolutonary tools meant to further the advancement of our species, not the lambs! Therefore, zoophiliacs and vegetarians are species traitors.
> 
> Personally, I *love *meat! I love killing it, I love skinning it, I love cleaning it, I love cooking it and *I love eating it!* Veggies are pretty nice as a side dish but it will never be my main course. And if a vegetarian ever tries to stand in the way of me and my delicious meat, I'll eat the vegetarian instead! :angry:
> ...


1. I'm not saying that omnivores lack a conscience. Perhaps they've just never thoroughly considered the matter.

2. Vegetarianism is most certainly not a form of bestiality. There's a difference between perversion and compassion. Wouldn't you feel sorry for a pet animal if it were suffering? Besides, how would you like a world with no animals? Just saying.

3. This is why we never travel with taptap... Ha, ha, but seriously, no, I wouldn't eat the monkeys, though I wouldn't physically block you from exercising your freedom of choice. I might try persuasion, but I'm not crazy. Think, though. What do the monkeys eat? Couldn't we try some of the plant food _they_ live on? Of course we can.

4. I am "denied" milk, cheese, butter, and meat. (Actually, I myself choose not to consume those things.) Yet I am as healthy, if not more so, than people my age. The thing is, you can't live on just "starchy, low-nutrition" (quoting your reference) food as a vegan/vegetarian. You have to have the whole grains, legumes, nuts, seeds, fruits, and veggies in a vegan diet--all of them. It's a big misunderstanding that all we survive on is salad and soymilk. Absolutely not. It's actually *healthy* (*gasp*) to live on a vegan diet. Even the PCRM says so. PCRM | Frequently Asked Questions About Nutrition Question 3; keyword - "well-balanced." I'm sorry if I sound biased, but from the BBC article, it sounds as if Dr. Allen's study was biased itself. It started out with "already malnourished" children, as the article says. Of _course_ they're going to improve, if they are supplied with more nutrients (I never said meat has zero nutritional value). As for the improved growth, you have to think about all the growth hormones they feed those animals. And if they are tested against the other children who were subsisting on an unhealthy vegan diet, of course they'll get better results. But none of those other children were on a healthy vegan diet. Do you think perhaps healthy vegan kids would do better than omnivorous kids? The study doesn't explore this possibility. So my main point here is, balance is essential, especially in a vegan diet.

So, skipping the steak part, I'll fill in the blanks.

Vegan kids are my kind of kids.
Steak is pathetic. It means death.
What zoophiliacs and vegetarians have in common is that they're both ...hmm...alive?


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## Stelmaria (Sep 30, 2011)

taptap said:


> @Entropia I wish all vegetarians were like you. It's a shame so few of them are. Especially the vegans. Oh god, the vegans. And the ones who call themselves "militant vegans".. *gag* I just lost my appetite for island monkeys.


Your ridiculous strawmans and non-sequiturs aren't doing much for your argument.

Yes, you must still consume adequate levels of nutrients such as B-12 and this is not at all hard to on a vegan diet.

Provided you eat a balanced vegan diet, veganism and vegetarianism are strongly associated with better health and longer life in the scientific literature.


I'll start with a look at the literature. These are studies that came up in Google Scholar when searching for "Health effects of vegan diets meta analysis". These links are not cherry-picked, it just seems that most recent literature supports the idea that vegetarian diets are better for you (provided it is still a balanced diet). Fortunately, most of these studies are also open-access.


Meat consumption and cancer risk
PLoS Medicine: Meat Consumption and Cancer Risk

Health effects of vegan diets
Health effects of vegan diets
(a balanced diet is needed, but overall health is similar or better (reduced cardiovascular disease risk).

Effect of vegetarian diets on bone mineral density: a Bayesian meta-analysis.
Effect of vegetarian diets on bone mineral density: a Bayesian meta-analysis
(small but clinically insignificant reducing in density found)

Should dairy be recommended as part of a healthy vegetarian diet? Point
Should dairy be recommended as part of a healthy vegetarian diet? Point
Should dairy be recommended as part of a healthy vegetarian diet? Counterpoint
Should dairy be recommended as part of a healthy vegetarian diet? Counterpoint

A low-fat vegan diet and a conventional diabetes diet in the treatment of type 2 diabetes: a randomized, controlled, 74-wk clinical trial
A low-fat vegan diet and a conventional diabetes diet in the treatment of type 2 diabetes: a randomized, controlled, 74-wk clinical trial

Vegetarian diets: what do we know of their effects on common chronic diseases?
Vegetarian diets: what do we know of their effects on common chronic diseases?

A Two-Year Randomized Weight Loss Trial Comparing a Vegan Diet to a More Moderate Low-Fat Diet
Obesity - Abstract of article: A Two-Year Randomized Weight Loss Trial Comparing a Vegan Diet to a More Moderate Low-Fat Diet[ast]

Do vegetarians have to eat fish for optimal cardiovascular protection?
Do vegetarians have to eat fish for optimal cardiovascular protection?

Diet and the environment: does what you eat matter?
Diet and the environment: does what you eat matter?

Potential contributions of food consumption patterns to climate change
Potential contributions of food consumption patterns to climate change

Fasting followed by vegetarian diet in patients with rheumatoid arthritis: a systematic review
Fasting followed by vegetarian diet in patients with rheumatoid arthritis: a systematic review, Scandinavian Journal of Rheumatology, Informa Healthcare

Vitamin B-12 and homocysteine status among vegetarians: a global perspective
Vitamin B-12 and homocysteine status among vegetarians: a global perspective

Vegetarian diet: panacea for modern lifestyle diseases?
Vegetarian diet: panacea for modern lifestyle diseases?

Blood Pressure Regulation and Vegetarian Diets
Blood Pressure Regulation and Vegetarian Diets - Berkow - 2008 - Nutrition Reviews - Wiley Online Library

Nutritional considerations for vegetarian athletes
Elsevier

Nutritional risks of vegan diets to women and children: Are they preventable?
Journal of Agricultural and Environmental Ethics, Volume 7, Number 1 - SpringerLink

Nutrition Concerns and Health Effects of Vegetarian Diets
Nutrition Concerns and Health Effects of Vegetarian Diets

Attitudes towards following meat, vegetarian and vegan diets: an examination of the role of ambivalence
Attitudes towards following meat, vegetarian and vegan diets: an examination of the role of ambivalence 10.1006/appe.2001.0406 : Appetite | ScienceDirect.com

Disclaimer/potential conflicts of interest: I still eat meat occasionally (when served outside my home), I avoid dairy products and I take B-12 supplements (hydroxy or methylcobalamin). My father has run many marathons and some ultra-marathons since becoming a vegetarian after reading Robert de Castella's book. He still runs marathons at the age of 60. The rest of my family are occasional meat eaters.


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## Danse Macabre (Oct 30, 2009)

I just want to say, that as kid, I was vegetarian from 6... and I was a long distance runner and competitive gymnast. I can remember being ill with the flu _once_. I was so fit and strong. I didn't drunk milk, rarely had animal bi-products - almost no icecream, milk, NO cream EVER... No junk food or fast food either. I have never been constipated in my life and I've always been the envy of my friends, due to my slim figure despite me eating whatever I want (Of course, there was never really any meat and few animal bi-products). I had a diet of plant products, a very small amount of soy products, and a lot of spinach, lentils, chickpeas, beans and nuts. 

I was super healthy. I'm not underdeveloped and I'm definitely not developmentally "challenged". I completely disagree that we need to eat meat to survive. Lots of people cut out meat and animal bi-products and get unhealthy, that's undeniable. But that's because, like regular meat eaters or vegetarians with bad diets they just don't pay enough attention to what they're putting into their mouthes day in, day out. Learn the facts, watch what you eat and you'll be healthy. My sister recently turned from having a 100% "normal" diet with heaps of meat to vegan, and she's noticed no change whatsoever except for a small weight loss. I am so sick of people refusing to educate themselves on the facts. We are vegans who have researched what it is that we need to eat.

If anyone's interested, this is a great lecture about animal products why veganism is a perfectly viable alternative. Not just an alternative... but preferable. I work at KFC (So damn ironic) and I listen day in and day out, to people denying to themselves the truth behind what they're eating and it makes me furious. I don't care if you eat yourself to an early grave, but don't cause others to suffer and die for it. Do what you want as long as it doesn't hurt others, that's my philosophy. 






And if anyone is in denial about how animals are treated by humans, this documentary is eye opening. It's what made me and my sister vegan. IMO, no one should be eating the crap they're eating without knowing the facts and truth of the matter.




I haven't eaten meat regularly for so long that I don't eve never consider it as an option. I don't feel deprived and I'm healthy, fit and strong. I never particularly cared about what other people ate or wore... but now that I know the facts I feel differently. I don't give a shit if you choose to be ignorant, but I will not tolerate denial.

And don't even get me started on the fashion industry! I _love_ fashion, but wearing fur is just fucked up. Leather too I believe there is a disconnect - people don't let themselves think about the fact that they're wearing dead skin or the suffering endured by the animal who was slain to obtain it. I myself owned six pairs of Dr Martens, and countless pairs of leather heels - all of which I'm in the process of getting rid of. I _collected_ them. Rarely wore them. Shoes made of skin. Now that I think about it -_ truly_ think about it - I can't believe how ignorant and self absorbed I was. From a utilitarian perspective, does my enjoyment of a pink pair of boots, or a bowl of yoghurt outweigh the life of an animal? Wtf? It's screwed up. How could I possibly ever even entertain the idea that my love of shoes is the worth the suffering and death of even one animal? It's shameful. 

It just disgust me that humans refuse to acknowledge their own humanity.
Of course I miss yoghurt and being able to thoughtlessly pick up food and eat it. But I am so much better off for it. Thanks @Snow Leopard for all the links, I can't wait to read them all. 
I like to be educated on the matter, because people always roll their eyes when you tell them you're vegan. I used to roll my eyes at it too. But then I let myself think about it and research it, and now.... I think very differently. And I'm not the only one. 

Like I said, my little sister recently turned vegan. She's always had meat pretty much for lunch and dinner and even sometimes with breakfast. But she's been FINE with turning vegan now she knows the truth of the matter. It's not difficult. We don't feel deprived.

As for the B-12 - I'm perfectly happy to take supplements. Done. In my mind, there's no contest.


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## gioh (Nov 2, 2010)

Brian1, have you tried tofu, tempeh, TVP (textured vegetable protein)? These foods all produce the similar feeling of fullness in the stomach.

I'm vegan because it's the logical decision to make. Veganism is about moral consistency, or at least trying your best to be morally consistent. It's not intelligence that you justify abusing animals, because many animals have a higher intelligence than some human beings - pigs, for example, have the intelligence of three-year-olds. It can't be sentience, which is the ability to feel pain and pleasure, because animals cleary have that too. Go take a walk inside a factory farm and look at the depressed pigs living in excrement, in total darkness, 24/7, unable to even turn around, and you'll understand that they feel the misery of their hopeless situation. So what is this big difference that people justify performing such acts of cruelty? It's being a different species - which is an arbitrary difference. All discrimination performed against minority groups have always justified that discrimination based on arbitrary differences, such as race, class, sex, etc. Specieism is no different to these kinds of discrimination. If you are against racism, sexism, - oppression in general -, then the logical decision is to go vegan.

While I support vegetarianism and in terms of compassion, it is a step in the right direction, it is an emotive decision and not an educated one. The dairy industry is just as cruel as the meat industry and just as environmentally destructive. Yes, it can be hard making the switch at first, but after a while your taste buds change. I can't stand the taste of milk or eggs anymore, or anything that has them in it. The only foods I crave now are vegan.

Even if you are apathetic to animal abuse, consider your health. A diet high in meat and dairy consumption is linked to cancer, osteoporosis, and high blood pressure.

_"The cause of osteoporosis is primarily diet. With all of the red meat and poultry, seafood, cheese and eggs, the rich American diet is a very acidic diet. That acid has to be buffered when you eat it. So the bones dissolve and then changes take place in the kidneys that cause the body to urinate the bones through the kidney system out into the toilet. Sometimes bones resolidify and they form calcium kidney stones." _- Dr. McDougall


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## Danse Macabre (Oct 30, 2009)

gioh said:


> I'm vegan because it's the logical decision to make. Veganism is about moral consistency, or at least trying your best to be morally consistent. It's not intelligence that you justify abusing animals, because many animals have a higher intelligence than some human beings - pigs, for example, have the intelligence of three-year-olds. It can't be sentience, which is the ability to feel pain and pleasure, because animals cleary have that too. Go take a walk inside a factory farm and look at the depressed pigs living in excrement, in total darkness, 24/7, unable to even turn around, and you'll understand that they feel the misery of their hopeless situation. So what is this big difference that people justify performing such acts of cruelty? It's being a different species - which is an arbitrary difference. All discrimination performed against minority groups have always justified that discrimination based on arbitrary differences, such as race, class, sex, etc. Specieism is no different to these kinds of discrimination. If you are against racism, sexism, - oppression in general -, then the logical decision is to go vegan.
> 
> While I support vegetarianism and in terms of compassion, it is a step in the right direction, it is an emotive decision and not an educated one. The dairy industry is just as cruel as the meat industry and just as environmentally destructive. Yes, it can be hard making the switch at first, but after a while your taste buds change. I can't stand the taste of milk or eggs anymore, or anything that has them in it. The only foods I crave now are vegan.


Well said. For all the years I was vegetarian I never thought about how the animal biproducts I was eating were produced. I guess it's because I was pretty young and wasn't aware of "Factory farms".... and I didn't comprehend the scale of the suffering. 

Now I've educated myself and like @gioh said, it's the logical decision.


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## Disfigurine (Jan 1, 2011)

I am a vegetarian and hope to be full out vegan someday.
I am, however, not political about it at all.

It is a personal choice for me, my own lifestyle, and I refuse to push it on anyone else.


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