# ESTJ or ENTJ? Confused!!



## Ambitious (Mar 21, 2014)

Hi! I've taken the tests for MBTI from 4 different websites and I'm ESTJ in 2 of them, ENTJ in 2 of them. Usually, my N and S are not that far off(at worst, 65% S), but from what I read, ESTJ and ENTJ are pretty different. I feel that I'm more ESTJ, yet I can't find myself identifying with a couple of traits of ESTJ. Could you guys help me determine which I am? Thanks  

Reasons why I might be ESTJ/I'm not ENTJ
- I get into quite a lot of arguments with my INFP friend - other than our shared sense of humour, we do not relate emotionally at all. She has a hatred of humankind and life in general, which I think is just stupid and I get quite annoyed about it(because I appreciate life and I tend to hate sadistic ideals; also because I hear that every time she pms so I got sick of it). I'm not very level-headed and I think my expression shows clearly that I was angry.
- When I study, I pay attention to details to make sure I cover everything
- In positions of leadership, I assign roles to people quickly 
- I am quick to dismiss others when I think they're wrong (but if they present a valid argument I would apologise)
- I do not enjoy learning everything. I love learning but not from every field of knowledge. 
- I set myself a checklist of tasks in my planner and I complete them 70% of the time. 
- I do not have overflowing self-confidence. I try to tell myself I'm lousy so that I tone down my overconfidence and this leads me to sometimes feeling insecure about my looks, my intelligence. (the paradox yes)
- I'm terrible at public speaking. I get stage fright.
- I'm not particularly creative. 
- I hate idealistic people. People who claim to want to do big things in life, but have nothing to show for it yet annoy me. I need to see results to believe claims, otherwise I feel that these people ought to shut up. They can have dreams, but they ought not to say anything (unless I can see that they are putting in a lot of effort to achieve them, then their ambitions are inspiring).
- I'm not particularly inspiring, but I can manipulate people to a certain extent. 
- I argue to win. But I also know to concede defeat (albeit very unhappily).
- I'm not someone who takes initiative.
- I enjoy data entry jobs and mundane tasks that allow me to take my mind off things and daydream


Reasons why I might be ENTJ/I'm not ESTJ
- I'm not concerned with details or particularly meticulous - once I finish a task I quickly move on.
- I am often late. 
- I have no compunction to follow rules. Some (school) rules are stupid and I am determined to defy them.
- I'm good with interviews
- I always look ahead; I set my goals way ahead of time and work towards them. I started wanting to go to this particular college since I was grade 8, and now I know what I want to work as. 
- I do not care what other people think of me. But I am aware that I need to develop a good impression, simply because I know that I need that to progress in life. 
- I do want I want and I'm not afraid to be different most of the time. 
- I can relax fine  but at times I choose not to in order to achieve my goals.
- (from above) I know to admit defeat when someone presents a valid point in what I originally believe to be wrong.
- my actions and words shows undeniable ego (which is why I try to tone it down in my head)
- I'm not bossy. When I want to carry out a plan (in projects), I always ask people, "do you think this idea is ok?". I will fight for my idea but am open to accepting better ideas.
- I consider the implications and consequences of my actions.
- I like understanding the concept that few facts can be determined as definite. I am interested in the social sciences and it is really fascinating how humans can be so irrational that definite theories in sociology/economics are oftentimes wrong. 
- I like to daydream and fantasize about the future.

Sorry for the long post, and thanks for your help! :happy:


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## StunnedFox (Dec 20, 2013)

Keys 2 Cognition - Cognitive Processes

I'd suggest giving this test a look. From the point of view of cognitive functions, both ESTJ and ENTJ use Te (Extraverted Thinking) most prominently, then their auxiliary function is either Si (Introverted Sensing, for the ESTJ) or Ni (Introverted Intuition, for the ENTJ). The test I've linked above, although far from flawless, may help in indicating which of the two functions is your auxiliary (or, alternatively, point you towards a third possible type). It's important to remember that, whilst there is some correlation, personality typing isn't necessarily about behaviour, which is what a lot of your post focuses on. I don't know the two types in question well enough (that is, beyond the probably terribly inaccurate stereotypes) to really extrapolate anything from your post, although others may find it leads them to some conclusion or other. 

There is also a dedicated "what's my type?" section of the forum, so it may be of benefit to post this there (or to ask a moderator to move this thread there): What's my personality type?


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

Coming from an ENTJ, you seem more like an ESTJ. I know this is Myers Briggs, but look into the socionics description of an ENTj(LIE). Logical-Intuitive Extratim - ENTj (The Pioneer). The issue I had with the ENTJ/ESTJ differentiation is that they don't really explain the difference between the N and the S. I honestly think ENTJs and ESTJs are very different because even though we use Te, Ni VS Si, makes Te for us very different. It's like using the same gun, but having different ammunition for it. For me I feel closer to an ENFJ or an INTJ, than an ESTJ. When little an ESTJ and ENTJ look very similar similar due to Te, but with the combo of tertiary and auxiliary, they differentiate a lot. 

The main differences I noticed in terms of generalizations are that ENTJs are much more liberal than ESTJs. They are much more out there and weirder. You can notice ENTJs trying to be comedians, or telling inappropriate jokes, and they like being the center of attention socially in a group or party setting. They don't particularly care about leading, but will take leadership if it's something that means something to them. ESTJs are more conservative in both fashion and demeanor, and are much more the achievers. ESTJs tend to make better leaders in real life, because attention to detail is really important in most matters. ENTJs can easily take command too, but for them they need motivation to do it. ESTJs tend to achieve a lot more for social status and image too, while ENTJs goals are a bit more personal for them.


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## Ram (Aug 27, 2012)

Generalisations:
N-types are conserned with the future and possibilites: you like ideaas
S-types are conserned with experience and facts on the table: you like solutions

It might be possible that the matter-of-factness of your extravert use of T (you use logic conclusions based on available facts) interfere with or confuse the interpretation of your S/N-function (the perceiving function). 
In ExxJ - and probably especially in ExTJs - the perceiving function is often overlooked as both themselves and the environment are mostly interested in that person's dealings with the surrounding world. so i think it might be genuinly difficult for an ExTJ to distinguish between the S and N since it is an introverted function you guys often dont pay much attention to anyway.

Good luck in finding out more about yourself.


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## Dedication (Jun 11, 2013)

Most of your reasons for the ESTJ actually speak against it and actually go as far as to indicate that you're an ENTJ. If you are either an ENTJ or ESTJ then you'd be an ENTJ, no doubt.


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

Dedication said:


> Most of your reasons for the ESTJ actually speak against it and actually go as far as to indicate that you're an ENTJ. If you are either an ENTJ or ESTJ then you'd be an ENTJ, no doubt.


I disagree, I think her reasons definitely put her over to the ESTJ area. A lot of people tend to meld ESTJ/ENTJ together because of Te and the only real difference is "one likes theory and new things", and the other is "one likes regular the facts and is more conservative" but the N VS S is a lot more than that and effects the person as a whole


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## Dedication (Jun 11, 2013)

Nightmaker81 said:


> I disagree, I think her reasons definitely put her over to the ESTJ area. A lot of people tend to meld ESTJ/ENTJ together because of Te and the only real difference is "one likes theory and new things", and the other is "one likes regular the facts and is more conservative" but the N VS S is a lot more than that and effects the person as a whole


I don't care about what a lot of people tend to do. That generalization doens't apply to either the OP or my post. The fact is that her post show the cognitive function Ni and not Si.


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## MagritteGaras (Mar 10, 2014)

Hi @Ambitious, I would say ENTJ. From what you wrote in the ENTJ section of your post, it seems like you are forward-thinking and think more about the future (Ni) when making decisions than you do about past events/ how you approached a similar situation before (Si).


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## Ambitious (Mar 21, 2014)

Thanks everyone! I'm still quite confused as to which one I identify more with. It seems that I'm a little bit of both :/
Some additional information:
- I can work quite well with clutter, so long as I push things to the side and have some space. 
- I am loyal -- when people criticise my family/country/closest friends I can get defensive 
My E is also quite borderline as well (in humanmetrics I got 51% E haha) but at least I'm consistently e in other tests @Ram

Do I have to be innovative to be N? I think I lack creativity so I might be S.
Also, as much as I look for ways to improve things, I feel that there are societal limits to certain issues and I don't try to push it/ go crazy thinking of ideas to improve the situation. 
But then again, I'm really forward-looking. I try not to dwell on the past and I don't exactly live in the moment either. 

I also don't try to take leadership roles, but when it comes to small projects whereby nobody steps up (many of my friends are Ixxx) I tend to just start assigning roles quickly because I like to get things done fast.


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## Dedication (Jun 11, 2013)

Ambitious said:


> Thanks everyone! I'm still quite confused as to which one I identify more with. It seems that I'm a little bit of both :/
> Some additional information:
> - I can work quite well with clutter, so long as I push things to the side and have some space.
> - I am loyal -- when people criticise my family/country/closest friends I can get defensive
> ...


Forget about being innovative for iNtuition, it shows more in subtle ways than being a full blasting innovator. Focus on being either future oriented (Ni) or past orientated (Si). If you read your first post again you will see that your reasons for being an ESTJ actually show that you're using Ni because you're showing that you're future thinking.

Would you call the founder of Apple an innovator? Well, Steve Jobbs was an ISTP.


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## Pancreatic Pandora (Aug 16, 2013)

Consider your weaknesses... Would you appreciate more help in avoiding possible unexpected events when planning something/recognizing the potential usefulness of something OR help in the concrete world/grounding yourself in the present such as helping with details, aesthetic presentation, bodily states, etc.? Those are just a few more or less concrete manifestations of the functions among many. Also, it's important to note that intuition and sensing can be quite on par in development because they are middle functions.


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

There's a saying on the ENTJ boards. "A person can LIE, but an ENTJ can never LIE". LIE referring to the soconics description: Logical-Intuitive Extratim - ENTj (The Pioneer). The reason is a lot of ENTJs are mistyped and are really ESTJs. It's because of the stereotypes of NT VS SJ. NTs are thought as smart, SJs are thought as bossy, so people would rather type as ENTJs

The problem I always had with the Myers Briggs description is that there is too much focus on Te, but they don't factor in Ni as much as I'd like. When I read the descriptors, ESTJ and ENTJ honestly just seem like variations of each other, and that one likes new things the other likes old things. But it's not just that. Ni isn't just thinking about the future, while Si is the past. They're completely different dipoles of processing information.

Myers Briggs does a good job of addressing Te, but they never go well into the idealistic nature of an ENTJ. Honestly ENTJs in real life aren't the executives. ESTJs are much more of the achievers/executive type people. ENTJs are much more visionary and relaxed, and not as competitive, but know they can achieve, which makes their negative side show when they feel they're being walked upon. ENTJs are also very curious and creative people, while ESTJs are much more grounded. This is why an ESTJ imo is a better leader for everyday situation. 

I know it's socionics, but an ENTJ and ESTJ are comparative types: Comparative relations between psychological ("personality") types
They seem similar on the surface but have very different world views because of the fact Ni and Si are on opposite spectrums.

If I had to catergorize, ENTJ is a much more of a visionary/entrepeneur type person, ESTJ are much more of the exective/achiever type person, which I believe you are.


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## Valtire (Jan 1, 2014)

Nightmaker81 said:


> I know it's socionics, but an ENTJ and ESTJ are comparative types: Comparative relations between psychological ("personality") types
> They seem similar on the surface but have very different world views because of the fact Ni and Si are on opposite spectrums.
> 
> If I had to catergorize, ENTJ is a much more of a visionary/entrepeneur type person, ESTJ are much more of the exective/achiever type person, which I believe you are.


How's this? I based this on 8-function theory.

An ESTJ will rely on an attention to detail and knowledge of the past with Si. They break away from the repetitive and traditional Si with Tertiary Ne and find a new way of completing tasks. They then use Te to make sure this idea is logical and will then use the more effective idea. After being put in practise, Si will compare the new system to the old system and evaluate if it's better. ESTJs are very good at remembering details such as names, numbers and dates. Their lack of Ni typically makes them supersticious, and their lack of Se makes them uncomfortable acting without a meticulous plan; they also won't tend to act without thinking first.

An ENTJ will focus on a long term goal, how to achieve it and what complications will arise along the way with Ni. They will basically have a long term strategy to make sure their goals are achieved. When an ENTJ notices something wrong, they may well act immediately without a plan because of Tert Se, but if the problem is complex they may use their stronger functions. ENTJs can be quite forceful and bossy because of Se. ENTJs can also be quite physically active. Their lack of Si often causes them to make up their personal history and pretend that they can remember details. Their lack of Ne often causes them to be overly sceptical of new ideas.


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

That sounds pretty good, especially about the part about Se. A lot of ENTJs I know in real life can be careless in everyday life. Usually well developed ENTJs lose their bossiness factor, and become much more optimistic and forgiving, and meld their Se with their other functions. In a weird way ENTJs are also huge romantics(but they'll never admit it), and I think that's where a well developed Fi comes in.


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## Ambitious (Mar 21, 2014)

Pancreatic Pandora said:


> Consider your weaknesses... Would you appreciate more help in avoiding possible unexpected events when planning something/recognizing the potential usefulness of something OR help in the concrete world/grounding yourself in the present such as helping with details, aesthetic presentation, bodily states, etc.? Those are just a few more or less concrete manifestations of the functions among many. Also, it's important to note that intuition and sensing can be quite on par in development because they are middle functions.


Ya perhaps my E and S are close to on par....

My weakness? As much as I would like to live in denial, I have a lot haha! 
I think I would prefer others helping me with aesthetic presentation. I usually plan ahead quite well and have no problems dealing with unexpected events. I'm not sure if I would need help with details though, because details formulate in my mind well. 

Other weaknesses(I hope they are of relevance): 
- I can be really pedantic and grounded in reality, and I usually make that quite clear. Which is a negative trait because sometimes I'm not really open to possibilities. For instance, an INTP friend once mused the possibility that, in light of the economic crisis, in 20-30 years' time, all the poor countries will be rich and the rich countries will be poor. I don't see that as a possibility and I quickly slammed her down, citing my knowledge about exploitation and the recurring poverty cycle. Yeah, now I confess that unexpected things happen, but I'm just not much of a dreamer in that sense. 
- Although ExTJ don't tend to lie, I actually lie quite a bit. I have a lot of F friends who like to bemoan their life stories and as much as I enjoy being with them at other times, I hate self-centred, detailed rants about things that are impractical. But for the sake of giving my friends face I shut up (as much as I want them to shut up) and let them talk. Then afterwards, I will vent my irritation with my INTP best friend.
- When I present practical solutions to emotional situations, I want my friends to apply them and it annoys me to no end when they continue with their self-inflicted melancholy and ignore my advice. 
- I always think I'm right, in arguments, and feel very embarrassed when I'm actually wrong. I cower in shame. 
- I'm self-centred.
- I can be very easily irritated, especially when I'm involved in work. If someone calls me when I'm studying I will try to hang up as quickly as possible and it will constantly bug me that I wasted time and got distracted.
- As much as I'd like to be wholly dedicated and hardworking, I actually procrastinate a lot. I just get a lot of things done quickly when I put my mind to them.
- I try not to be too blunt because I'm aware that I hurt others' feelings, but I can't help doing it sometimes
- I have no real passion for social work (sadly)


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## Ambitious (Mar 21, 2014)

@Nightmaker81

I don't have a problem with being typed as ESTJ. I like both personalities for their independence, strong will and rationality. From what you say, I would agree that I'm ESTJ (and I also suspected that). I also read up from the link you gave and I identify much more with ESTJ. My guess is that ESTJ people are labelled with this kind of pedantry online that is usually less synonymous with real ESTJs, which is why I was confused. I still do not really identify with certain traits of ESTJ which includes being not dreamy at all (I do have grand illusions but I know they won't happen - I just can't help daydreaming sometimes), being unable to lie, not liking gossip?, supposedly not being future-oriented?, being superstitious (I'm very grounded in reality), being overly meticulous, having a very conservative dress code (umm...not true haha) 

But I guess there's never a perfect description...16 personalities can't determine the exact characteristics of 7billion+ people in the world. But thanks for your help everyone @StunnedFox @Dedication @Nightmaker81 @Fried Eggz @Pancreatic Pandora I think I'm probably an ESTJ. An ENTJ sounds too inspiring, visionary to be me. 
@Fried Eggz, you mentioned in the other post that I'm probably not ESTJ or ENTJ and that I should do another questionnaire? How can I go about doing that? Thanks!


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## StunnedFox (Dec 20, 2013)

@Ambitious - it's exactly right that there will be significant individual variance within any given type, particularly because of the ratio of types to extant people that you presented; even traits that may be common for people of a type will not necessarily be true for all who are of that type. Beyond that, remember that much of what is said about each type is based in a stereotype that may or may not be applicable to someone fitting that type, and that this is truer for some types moreso than for others (ESTJ, I suspect, being one of them). Hopefully you're satisfied that you've now gotten it correct. Enjoy your time on the forum!


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## Valtire (Jan 1, 2014)

Ambitious said:


> @[MENTION=74605]Fried Eggz, you mentioned in the other post that I'm probably not ESTJ or ENTJ and that I should do another questionnaire? How can I go about doing that? Thanks!


The questionnaires are in the sticky topic in this section:
What's my personality type?

Even if I'm wrong and you are an E_TJ, I'd far prefer you were typed thoroughly.


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## Belladonne (Mar 22, 2014)

Ambitious said:


> Hi! I've taken the tests for MBTI from 4 different websites and I'm ESTJ in 2 of them, ENTJ in 2 of them. Usually, my N and S are not that far off(at worst, 65% S), but from what I read, ESTJ and ENTJ are pretty different. I feel that I'm more ESTJ, yet I can't find myself identifying with a couple of traits of ESTJ. Could you guys help me determine which I am? Thanks
> 
> Reasons why I might be ESTJ/I'm not ENTJ
> - I get into quite a lot of arguments with my INFP friend - other than our shared sense of humour, we do not relate emotionally at all. She has a hatred of humankind and life in general, which I think is just stupid and I get quite annoyed about it(because I appreciate life and I tend to hate sadistic ideals; also because I hear that every time she pms so I got sick of it). I'm not very level-headed and I think my expression shows clearly that I was angry.
> ...


None of your reasons for being an ESTJ sound particularly compelling, TBH... I'd go with ENTJ


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## IAmReason (Feb 11, 2014)

@Ambitious Ok, Well I have an ENTJ father, and to be honest, you sound a lot like him.

Look the key to the intuition/sensation lock, is
So the cognitive functions Of an ENTJ are
-Te
-Ni
-Se
-Fi
and the cognitive functions of an ESTJ are
-Te
-Si
-Ne
-Fi

So you firstly must determine are you an extroverted intuitor or an introverted intuitor
and if you are an introverted or extroverted sensor, I will give you two questions, in each question there is a choice of two paragraphs, you must pick the one you relate to the most.

QUESTION 1
Please pick A or B, on which you relate most to

A
This function involves noticing hidden meanings and interpreting them, often entertaining a wealth of possible interpretations from just one idea or interpreting what someone's behavior really means.
It also involves seeing things "as if," with various possible representations of reality.
Using this process, we can juggle many different ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and meanings in our mind at once with the possibility that they are all true.
This is like weaving themes and threads together.
We don't know the weave until a thought thread appears or is drawn out in the interaction of thoughts, often brought in from other contexts.
Thus a strategy or concept often emerges from the here-and-now interactions, not appearing as a whole beforehand.
Using this process we can really appreciate brainstorming and trust what emerges, enjoying imaginative play with scenarios and combining possibilities, using a kind of cross-contextual thinking.
this function also can involve catalyzing people and extemporaneously shaping situations, spreading an atmosphere of change through emergent leadership.

B
This function involves synthesizing the seemingly paradoxical or contradictory, which takes understanding to a new level.
Using this process, we can have moments when completely new, unimagined realizations come to us.
A disengagement from interactions in the room occurs, followed by a sudden "Aha!" or "That's it!" The sense of the future and the realizations that come from introverted iNtuiting have a sureness and an imperative quality that seem to demand action and help us stay focused on fulfilling our vision or dream of how things will be in the future.
Using this process, we might rely on a focal device or symbolic action to predict, enlighten, or transform.
We could find ourselves laying out how the future will unfold based on unseen trends and telling signs.
This process can involve working out complex concepts or systems of thinking or conceiving of symbolic or novel ways to understand things that are universal.
It can lead to creating transcendent experiences or solutions.


QUESTION 2
Again, Please pick the paragraph you most relate to

A
This function occurs when we become aware of what is in the physical world in rich detail.
We may be drawn to act on what we experience to get an immediate result.
We notice relevant facts and occurrences in a sea of data and experiences, learning all the facts we can about the immediate context or area of focus and what goes on in that context.
An active seeking of more and more input to get the whole picture may occur until all sources of input have been exhausted or something else captures our attention.
This function is operating when we freely follow exciting physical impulses or instincts as they come up and enjoy the thrill of action in the present moment.
A oneness with the physical world and a total absorption may exist as we move, touch, and sense what is around us.
The process involves instantly reading cues to see how far we can go in a situation and still get the impact we want or respond to the situation with presence.

B
This function often involves storing data and information, then comparing and contrasting the current situation with similar ones.
The immediate experience or words are instantly linked with the prior experiences, and we register a similarity or a difference—for example, noticing that some food doesn't taste the same or is saltier than it usually is.
This function is also operating when we see someone who reminds us of someone else.
Sometimes a feeling associated with the recalled image comes into our awareness along with the information itself. Then the image can be so strong, our body responds as if reliving the experience. The process also involves reviewing the past to draw on the lessons of history, hindsight, and experience.
With this function, there is often great attention to detail and getting a clear picture of goals and objectives and what is to happen. There can be a oneness with ageless customs that help sustain civilization and culture and protect what is known and long-lasting, even while what is reliable changes.


Ok so simply pick your answer and I will tell you if you are ENTJ or ESTJ, (Even by reading what you wrote, you sound like an ENTJ)


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