# Contemporary Pop: Sx-Last



## star tripper (Sep 1, 2013)

So I was listening to KIISFM while driving today in an effort to make sure I understood pop references at work and I was pondering why pop music post-2011ish doesn't whet my whistle anymore. Quality hadn't really disintegrated (pop is equally bad as it was years ago) so why did it just not gel with me anymore? It wasn't just the songs themselves; the music videos nowadays just aren't right to me. There's something off, something missing.

And then I remembered this one song from Lorde's new album (an album I also don't fucking get) called LOVELESS, positing the idea we're a loveless generation and I got to thinking... is it because songs nowadays are more soc- and sp-driven?

Popular song themes nowadays focus on money, earthly pleasures, partying*, and seeking stability. They're about one-night stands, not being able to afford x, and loneliness. Pop music reflects our culture, which focuses on social media popularity and making money. Fashion trends aren't sultry, more... I wanna say plastic but that's not a neutral word. Mod maybe? The way I see it is fashion from even the early 00s tended to be motion-oriented, what looks good on video. Fashion today tends to be more static, what looks good on Polaroid. Speaking from a more subjective perspective, I notice in music videos there's seldom ever raw sexual energy nor that "come hither" simmering that was once commonplace. Even the construction of a song feels less sexual and more mechanical.

It would make sense for millennial music to be sx-last considering all the social- and self-preservation-oriented crises that characterize this time vs the sexual awakening of, say, the baby boomers. I haven't really fleshed this idea out, just pitching a theory based on some recent observations and a nagging feeling.

* but not partying the way '70s and '80s partied, which seemed driven by thrill and connection, but more like getting basic human needs fulfilled + forgetting troubles.


----------



## TheDarknessInTheSnow (May 28, 2016)

star tripper said:


> And then I remembered this one song from Lorde's new album (an album I also don't fucking get) called LOVELESS, positing the idea we're a loveless generation and I got to thinking... is it because songs nowadays are more soc- and sp-driven?
> .


i get lorde's new album really well actually. it's like an acting production, cause she's dramatic over romance and heartbreak. 

but i don't think the sexual instinct equates to love. i think the instincts are paths to end results, but the end result of love can come from any one of the instincts. even passion.


----------



## TheDarknessInTheSnow (May 28, 2016)

star tripper said:


> So I was listening to KIISFM while driving today in an effort to make sure I understood pop references at work and I was pondering why pop music post-2011ish doesn't whet my whistle anymore. Quality hadn't really disintegrated (pop is equally bad as it was years ago) so why did it just not gel with me anymore? It wasn't just the songs themselves; the music videos nowadays just aren't right to me. There's something off, something missing.
> 
> And then I remembered this one song from Lorde's new album (an album I also don't fucking get) called LOVELESS, positing the idea we're a loveless generation and I got to thinking... is it because songs nowadays are more soc- and sp-driven?
> 
> ...


why do i feel like mainstream music is mostly sx/sp and sx/so though? from my perspective as an so/sp, it's all sx. maybe it's the blindspot instinct that is triggered when certain songs come up, altering our perception? but i always wonder, why are songs usually about heartbreak, hooking up, etc and not friendships or being left out? i love "Cool Kids" for that reason, though that's an old song


----------



## star tripper (Sep 1, 2013)

TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> i get lorde's new album really well actually. it's like an acting production, cause she's dramatic over romance and heartbreak.
> 
> but i don't think the sexual instinct equates to love. i think the instincts are paths to end results, but the end result of love can come from any one of the instincts. even passion.


I meant I don't get why people like the album. It was rather boring to me.

Also, the point of my LOVELESS inspiration is that there's more of a focus on fulfilling basic needs than on finding exciting connections as was characterized by older pop music ('60s for example were supremely sp-last). Even the "sexual" songs today frequently refer back to money and social class.




TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> why do i feel like mainstream music is mostly sx/sp and sx/so though? from my perspective as an so/sp, it's all sx. maybe it's the blindspot instinct that is triggered when certain songs come up, altering our perception? but i always wonder, why are songs usually about heartbreak, hooking up, etc and not friendships or being left out? i love "Cool Kids" for that reason, though that's an old song


Sx isn't necessarily romance/sex/love songs. It's more about latching onto an object and leeching off its energy. U2 is good at exemplifying this. Also, I should say I consider songs that seem to be geared toward being the voice of a group social even if the subject matter is hookups (New Rules by Dua Lipa strikes me as hyper social).


----------



## Strelok (Aug 16, 2013)

Might be true. I don't listen to enough popular music (or watch enough popular TV series, etc.), but I know I see SO/SP shit everywhere and I can't stand it. I find SO instinct so insufferable. If I were to try to predict how I would feel / get along with a person based on typology, their instinctual stack would probably be more reliable than their MBTI or enneagram types.


----------



## star tripper (Sep 1, 2013)

Strelok said:


> Might be true. I don't listen to enough popular music (or watch enough popular TV series, etc.), but I know I see SO/SP shit everywhere and I can't stand it. I find SO instinct so insufferable. If I were to try to predict how I would feel / get along with a person based on typology, their instinctual stack would probably be more reliable than their MBTI or enneagram types.


I do agree that soc can be the most overtly obnoxious type in certain manifestations (ie "Instagram celebrities"), but I gotta say sp and sx can really grind the gears too lol. I had this sp/so manager at my old job who was constantly paranoid and would try to get others' hands dirty so that she wouldn't get in trouble. She's tried to make me make a sexual harassment complaint against another employee just to get the woman a step closer to getting fired (she felt like this woman was trying to steal her job). I guess because it's my blind spot, sp can really irk me. In some manifestations I find it downright cowardly.

Sx at its worst probably has the most long term consequences as well. My SO's ex was probably sx/sp and she keyed his car, kicked him in the face, beat him with a golf club, and threatened to kill herself all because he wanted to spend time with his [male!] friends.

So eh. I'm not really averse to any of the instincts in people (my best friend is so/sp), but because I'm sx-dom, I'm probably not gonna be super into what I perceive as sx-last music. Then again, I am a big Rush fan (sp/so?) and Mad World is probably so/sp as well.


----------



## Majority (Oct 3, 2016)

The whole feminist/liberal wave of sleeping around and being sexually liberated would or could certainly throw off an sx-dom that is actually looking for a quality partner for the long run and hates seeing 'lower functioning sexuality' in others. Pop-music is generally geared towards young adults so that they have something to party to and get drunk to and find people to sleep with. Put out any catchy crap and make a buck. You know it's gonna sell.


----------



## star tripper (Sep 1, 2013)

Majority said:


> The whole feminist/liberal wave of sleeping around and being sexually liberated would or could certainly throw off an sx-dom that is actually looking for a quality partner for the long run and hates seeing 'lower functioning sexuality' in others. Pop-music is generally geared towards young adults so that they have something to party to and get drunk to and find people to sleep with. Put out any catchy crap and make a buck. You know it's gonna sell.


Dunno if I'd attribute it to feminism/liberalism primarily. I think the primary influences are 1) technology and 2) financial instability. This is a generation that has to worry about its own preservation and thus must focus on fulfilling base needs, which includes sexual needs. "Getting off" is in the domain of sp imo while siphoning energy off an object would be in the domain of sx. Idk if you ever watched Dexter but I would consider Dexter sx and Masuka sp even though Masuka is clearly the promiscuous one between the two. That's how I'm making the distinction. And it's now easier to get that sp need fulfilled thanks to apps like Tinder.

I agree that pop is supposed to be, essentially, background music for youth. But you can have that with a sexual energy to it, too. I would consider Smile by Avril Lavigne, Every Time You Go by Ellie Goulding, even Sign of the Times by Harry Styles sexual (Harry Styles's album is most certainly sx/so). They focus on movement, on that one energy source, they _obsess_. I'm not even saying sx-last music is more banal as I've just attributed "banal" artists to sx, but that it's a different sort of energy driven by a generation that focuses on social and self-preservation matters over sexual. That's why the songs move and breathe differently from relatively recent sexual hits.

Just compare the music video of Me Against the Music by Britney Spears to Wildest Dreams by Taylor Swift. Wildest Dreams SHOULD appear more sx by virtue of its subject matter but it doesn't. MATM moves and breathes like a sx song. Wildest Dreams moves and breathes like a so song. It's bizarre but I think you can just see it.

(Sorry went off on a bit of a tangent. Only some of that was relates to your post.)


----------



## Majority (Oct 3, 2016)

star tripper said:


> Dunno if I'd attribute it to feminism/liberalism primarily. I think the primary influences are 1) technology and 2) financial instability. This is a generation that has to worry about its own preservation and thus must focus on fulfilling base needs, which includes sexual needs. "Getting off" is in the domain of sp imo while siphoning energy off an object would be in the domain of sx. Idk if you ever watched Dexter but I would consider Dexter sx and Masuka sp even though Masuka is clearly the promiscuous one between the two. That's how I'm making the distinction. And it's now easier to get that sp need fulfilled thanks to apps like Tinder.
> 
> I agree that pop is supposed to be, essentially, background music for youth. But you can have that with a sexual energy to it, too. I would consider Smile by Avril Lavigne, Every Time You Go by Ellie Goulding, even Sign of the Times by Harry Styles sexual (Harry Styles's album is most certainly sx/so). They focus on movement, on that one energy source, they _obsess_. I'm not even saying sx-last music is more banal as I've just attributed "banal" artists to sx, but that it's a different sort of energy driven by a generation that focuses on social and self-preservation matters over sexual. That's why the songs move and breathe differently from relatively recent sexual hits.
> 
> ...


Fwiw I loved Dexter. S1 and 4 in particular, with 2 and 5 being very good. I can buy sp for Masuka and am inclined to agree with sx for Dexter - it's just fiction though. 

Club-music and sx-instinct don't work well together, imo. I could be wrong about that, but that's how it is to me. Sx could still reach the radio, though. 

The sexual liberation movement destroyed many things by bringing them down to sex. This generation is the child of sexually liberated people. It's all sex, no dignity. No virtue, character and no devotion. "Pump-and-dump" to gratify needs but it's all meaningless sex. I have nothing in common with the partygoers.


----------



## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

I've thought about this before, and have had a hard time pegging pop music to types. It's really interesting you brought up SX blind spot; I've thought about types 2, 3, 7, 9, and SO but never SX-last. 

Not to get too far off topic, but I feel really strongly that in American society, values and beliefs that used to be learned and developed at home with family and friends and within local communities have been replaced by more generic, secular, global values that are learned and dispersed online and through media. Themes in pop music have, the way I see it, followed suit. People aren't writing songs about their personal experiences anymore, it's about generic appeal to a global audience. 

This bothers a lot of people, but people are too afraid of speaking against it, or can't quite verbalize what they feel is missing. I think that could be part of the reason the music seems so depersonalized and frankly boring. We've moved from, like, Bob Dylan and Santana to Justin Bieber lip-synching Spanish in a trite auto-tuned song that can "bring Millennials and the Latino community together" (read: appeal to a diverse audience, be suitable to be played at culturally diverse settings, and inoffensively make a lot of money). 

Call me nuts or in poor taste, but I really miss songs about people the songwriter knew. I miss love ballads (lol), rock anthems, songs about life events/coming of age, songs about struggle and challenge, even songs about places dear to the songwriter or symbolism to current trends or events. 

This pandering to audiences that are socially-normed makes me point to 3 and SO, as does the focus on making business en masse. The party/sex/falling in and out of love/so and so is beautiful lyrics goes along with 2 and 7. The perky songs about being carefree and happy are 7 and 9. And I agree with what I think the OP is alluding to, that the lack of personality is probably a lack of SX.


----------



## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

I agree, though I'd also argue that music's just gotten...really flat and musical boring (I would also call 60s/70s music flat and boring and I know other people find it deep and multi-faceted etc, I think there's just something I don't 'get' in both cases...it might not be anything substantial, the literal music just doesn't fall well to my mind), sounds like it was pounded out of a machine

Notice that this generation (maybe the previous one) seems to have an antipathy to for example love songs or anything...I want to say sincere? Very Alpha values I think, seems kinda anti-sex too

(I'm always seeing YouTube comments on artists I like...'finally an artist who doesn't sing about love and sex!' hate that, feel like things get praised more for not having love, sex, etc than for having something of substance...and songs like 'Breakfast at Tiffany's' (I know it's super old it's just a whole category) never fail to get praised for being so realistic and down-to-earth, idk

There's some great analytical comments on this page and I hate to dilute them with my silly ramblings, just had a couple things to say

People seem to really disagree on what sx in music sounds like though

For me, for pure audio sx this sounds like it to me, a lot of people have fiercely disagreed with me


* *














though alternate version of sx for me in music, less tempered by my natural preference (I looove this song but...the above ones are more how I understand music):










edit: I guess it's just...there's a lack of _opera_, for me, not sure if that's really sx, could be so
Feels like musicians are so afraid to be illogical or sincere that they end up just always tripping and revisiting their words, songs sound like apologies for themselves

Was kinda cute at first, not when it's every song though, it's like breaking the fourth wall, it's just not funny every time

Prefer Pitbull songs where he's saying stupid things and seems unaware of it but is clearly living out a great epic in his mind to Ed Sheeran songs where he's explaining how lame his dates are or Coldplay talking about all the ways he's not a hero or The Chainsmokers talking about how the girl can't afford her car, there's just...too many 'relatable' asides and flukes

Unapologetically shallow is better than apologetically nothing

And the music sounds apologetic too

I liked like 2008-2012 music because the fun songs were just so fun, no den of morality but sounded like the soundtrack for life, not a waiting room

"I may not be the worst or the best but you've got to respect my honesty" 






edit ii: I know this just turned into me complaining about music nowadays, do like some songs btw
Trying to think aloud

edit iii: Don't know enough about Socionics...but maybe a shift from Beta values/aesthetics to Alpha?


----------



## Majority (Oct 3, 2016)

Twist of Fate said:


> ...


I liked the first two. A little over-the-top but passionate.


----------



## Manuscript (Feb 12, 2017)

Yeah, I'm going to root for the null hypothesis. I'm not saying that cultural changes don't happen (different genres and influences coming and going, the rise of the internet, etc.), but I find these narratives inherently suspect, so it's best to suspend judgement.



Majority said:


> The sexual liberation movement destroyed many things by bringing them down to sex. This generation is the child of sexually liberated people. It's all sex, no dignity. No virtue, character and no devotion. "Pump-and-dump" to gratify needs but it's all meaningless sex. I have nothing in common with the partygoers.


Except that young people are having less sex than they did. I'm pretty sure you're going to move the goalposts at this point, but try to resist the temptation. There's a widespread tendency to portray the youth negatively: if they're wild, they're degenerates; if they're tame, they're milksops.

The article could be taken as a shift towards SP, but I don't think SO vs. SX has changed.


----------



## Majority (Oct 3, 2016)

Manuscript said:


> Yeah, I'm going to root for the null hypothesis. I'm not saying that cultural changes don't happen (different genres and influences coming and going, the rise of the internet, etc.), but I find these narratives inherently suspect, so it's best to suspend judgement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good points but sex is still a casual thing, from porn to hook-ups. Less commitment, a promiscuous attitude, just less sex than before. Now we know there is less sex, but it doesn't change much.


----------



## Stellafera (Jan 19, 2015)

Nissa Nissa said:


> Don't know enough about Socionics...but maybe a shift from Beta values/aesthetics to Alpha?


Not a socionics expert either, but I'm feeling Delta actually. Seems to be more Fi focused than Fe right now. 

--------------------------------

_They say it’s like the ‘me’ generation. It’s not. The arrogance is taught, or it was cultivated. It’s self-conscious. That’s what it is. It’s conscious of self. Social media - it’s just the market’s answer to a generation that demanded to perform so the market said, here - perform. Perform everything to each other, all the time for no reason. It’s prison - its horrific. It’s performer and audience melded together. What do we want more than to lie in our bed at the end of the day and just watch our life as a satisfied audience member? I know very little about anything. But what I do know is that if you can live your life without an audience, you should do it._ - *Bo Burnham, "Make Happy"*

Would agree with So/Sp as the cultural milieu in the US right now. IMO it's related to social media, which brings So concerns to the realm of omnipresence. The Bo Burnham quote above is insightful but I feel like it's backwards. We're performing _because_ of social media. Be aware. Everyone is aware of you. We are all watching. We are all your social circle. We are all public. Why aren't you?

As for the SP aspect, it's a natural counter-reaction. You have to protect yourself against some of the onslaught by deciding what you want to share and how much you're willing to give. Do I have to reveal the pecking order of my friends by being selective with who I share social media with? Do I want to show what activities I do in my spare time? And so on...

I would caution that this culture really stems from the _online_ aspects of modern life, which means it's going to be exaggerated on this website, because this website is mostly full of heavy internet users.

----

Sort of a So/Sx interpretation of current So/Sp culture:


----------



## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

I think pop music is mostly so/sx today, and has been for the last five years or so. I don't think it's sx-last, or I wouldn't  every time there's always some new song about my girlfriend/boyfriend that I just broke up with five months ago...

@*Nissa Nissa*, I agree about Ed Sheeran. He's like a sx-last trying to be sx, but I don't mind him _as_ much as some other "artists" because at least he can sing; though, like you, I do despise these lazy lyrics that are merely blandly describing the events of his dates as they occurred.



> One week in we let the story begin
> We're going out on our first date
> You and me are thrifty
> So go all you can eat
> ...


:bored:

I actually really like Lorde. Her first album was great. I haven't listened to the new album, though. I think she's a Social 4.


----------



## star tripper (Sep 1, 2013)

Some great points being mentioned. Figure actually nailed an exact thought process I had a year ago (was it?) or whenever Halsey's album came out. Halsey was an artist I felt like I should at least respect and appreciate but I didn't. And I could tell you why without hesitation: even though she was singing about shit that should feel real and worn-in... it didn't. I used to rant to people that music felt like just a bunch of buzz words lately. Ooooh this song is so deep because the singer claims to have fallen in love, but the singer clearly has never actually been in love. It's like some artists understand there needs to be that sexual intensity in music, so they try to create it rather than tapping into it from within. A lot of current music, then, starts to feel less natural. There are some lyrics I hear on the radio that just make me think you would have to have been an idiot who's never heard a proper song before to write this lyric this way instead of this other way. Just obvious stuff.

The point of this thread is the music but honestly even the culture's makeup and fashion imo aren't sx driven. That Kylie Jenner makeup is not seductive. Those one piece tops with shorts are not seductive. Actually, contrary to some points in this thread, I think "feminism" is partially responsible for DESEXUALIZING fashion and makeup. "We're doing it for us, not for guys!"

I also agree that the seemingly overwhelming social focus lately is due to technology. I mentioned that before. Big Brother watching you. I'm at a weird age where I guess I'm like an old young person (23) so it's interesting to see how some of my small habits manifest in my younger friends. I tend to glance at my phone once in a whole to see if I have a new email when I'm out with people -- probably once every few hours. My younger friends will literally take out their phone and look at memes for ten minutes while sitting across the table from me. The technological advancement is definitely magnified (exponentially I'd say) the younger you go. Funnily enough, though, 50+-year-olds do the same lol. But the point is, for people my age, things like Instagram and Snapchat are optional. But for people just a year younger than me, it's a requirement. They absolutely must chronicle their lives like a little girl with an unlocked diary.

I think pre-tech boom, cultures were more like salads and now they're melting pots, diluting into a single generic flavor. I'm not sure if it's because we have access to information about these cultures or if the ability to commercialize one's own identity has essentially commercialized all cultures. I usually theorize the latter and wrote a song about it in high school. Used to bother the shit out of me.

It's funny that the likes of Bob Dylan, Santana, Ed Sheeran, and Taylor Swift were brought up because they were exactly who I had in mind when writing some of my responses. This isn't a great example of a Santana song, but it does capture why I believe the '00s were more sexual: Smooth. That is a song that moves, breathes, BLEEDS sx energy. Compare to Shape of You. The latter is way more mechanical even though the characters in the song actually had sex. I know her instincts are still debated all the time, but to me, it's outrageous to label Taylor Swift anything but sx-last. Outrageous. It's like labeling Axl Rose literally anything other than sx-dom. I understand the reasoning: she sings about relationships exclusively and she has recently developed a taste for drama. But she just... doesn't have that soul-sucking focus. That commitment to personality. She's so dry when sx is wet (not an insult btw as I think some dry artists are fantastic).

Of course the foundation of my point is that relationships/sex =/= sx instinct so that's probably the main thing that will be disagreed upon. I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For will always be more sx to me than any song Ed Sheeran will ever write, and ISHFWILF is not even about sex/love/relationships; it's fucking spiritual.

But yeah, as the OP of this thread, feel free to stray off-topic. Music to me is supposed to capture the times, so I'm just using it as a means of social commentary here. I've actually been told by people who grew up in what I consider sx decades that my obsessive personality would've fit their time period way better lol. That's cool. I don't think my generation's focus is _wrong_, just not for me. I need raw experience for me to even entertain the idea you're being sincere.

Nissa Nissa This is my go-to 100% sx song personally:

* *


----------



## Strelok (Aug 16, 2013)

star tripper said:


> I do agree that soc can be the most overtly obnoxious type in certain manifestations (ie "Instagram celebrities")


It's not necessarily that it's obnoxious (as it would be in your example of "instagram celebrities"). I just find many SO users disgustingly boring. They talk about shit that is so mundane, I can't imagine why it would ever enter anyone's conscious mind. Like the first thing they ask you when they meet you is "who do you know?" and you're expected to do this stupid little dance where you chatter about your acquaintances and social circles or something. I can't think of a precise explanation of why it pisses me off so much, but learning about the Instinct variants made it make more sense to me. They just always seem to be trying to force me to think about things I could not conceivably care about.



star tripper said:


> but I gotta say sp and sx can really grind the gears too lol. I had this sp/so manager at my old job who was constantly paranoid and would try to get others' hands dirty so that she wouldn't get in trouble. She's tried to make me make a sexual harassment complaint against another employee just to get the woman a step closer to getting fired (she felt like this woman was trying to steal her job). I guess because it's my blind spot, sp can really irk me. In some manifestations I find it downright cowardly.


Sounds like the SO was much more a deciding factor in their behavior than SP alone. I'm SP primary, and the last thing I'd ever want is to have to fuck around with a stranger by foisting my responsibilities onto them, or being a gossipy bitch to get someone fired. Then again, I'm also a type 5.

I'd agree that primary SX can be a bit too intense. I don't know anything about pop music, though


----------



## TheDarknessInTheSnow (May 28, 2016)

star tripper said:


> I meant I don't get why people like the album. It was rather boring to me.
> 
> Also, the point of my LOVELESS inspiration is that there's more of a focus on fulfilling basic needs than on finding exciting connections as was characterized by older pop music ('60s for example were supremely sp-last). Even the "sexual" songs today frequently refer back to money and social class.
> 
> ...


Oh I get what you mean. Though I'm not a huge album listener, I relate to Lorde's album on a personal level. Maybe cause Lorde is an So/Sp type 4 too? "Liability" and "Loveless" in particular speak to me.


"Bet you wanna rip my heart out
Bet you wanna skip my calls now
Well guess what? I like that
‘Cause I’m gonna mess your life up"

The type of thoughts I succumb to.

Interesting how you describe Sx music. I'm completely oblivious to that energy. People say Lorde's music especially is "all over the place" energy like So/Sp. Not honed in on one thing or "leeching" like you describe. Just there.

Is it possible the Sx-last vibe currently is in how the music sounds, and not the topics?


----------



## TheDarknessInTheSnow (May 28, 2016)

.


----------



## TheDarknessInTheSnow (May 28, 2016)

Strelok said:


> It's not necessarily that it's obnoxious (as it would be in your example of "instagram celebrities"). I just find many SO users disgustingly boring. They talk about shit that is so mundane, I can't imagine why it would ever enter anyone's conscious mind. Like the first thing they ask you when they meet you is "who do you know?" and you're expected to do this stupid little dance where you chatter about your acquaintances and social circles or something. I can't think of a precise explanation of why it pisses me off so much, but learning about the Instinct variants made it make more sense to me. They just always seem to be trying to force me to think about things I could not conceivably care about.
> 
> 
> Sounds like the SO was much more a deciding factor in their behavior than SP alone. I'm SP primary, and the last thing I'd ever want is to have to fuck around with a stranger by foisting my responsibilities onto them, or being a gossipy bitch to get someone fired. Then again, I'm also a type 5.
> ...


Honestly see way too many assumptions. The last thing I think about when I meet someone is who they know. I'm terrible at making connections or "knowing the right people". SO for me is like constantly looking at the world outside of me, even when I recognize it's unnecessary (generally we're neurotic with our primary instinct). Wanting to keep up with what's going, or feeling left out. Part of it can be for the security of having humans to turn to and wanting to be liked. But if anything, being SO has left me with more pain than I feel I would have otherwise. All my type 4 feelings are manifested outwardly, in feeling flawed or inherently disliked or wanting to voice complaints. An ugly, whiny duckling.


----------



## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Stellafera said:


> Not a socionics expert either, but I'm feeling Delta actually. Seems to be more Fi focused than Fe right now.
> 
> --------------------------------
> 
> _They say it’s like the ‘me’ generation. It’s not. The arrogance is taught, or it was cultivated. It’s self-conscious. That’s what it is. It’s conscious of self. Social media - it’s just the market’s answer to a generation that demanded to perform so the market said, here - perform. Perform everything to each other, all the time for no reason. It’s prison - its horrific. It’s performer and audience melded together. What do we want more than to lie in our bed at the end of the day and just watch our life as a satisfied audience member? I know very little about anything. But what I do know is that if you can live your life without an audience, you should do it._ - *Bo Burnham, "Make Happy"*[/SPOILER]


Oh, this makes a lot of sense, I'll go with that




mistakenforstranger said:


> I think pop music is mostly so/sx today, and has been for the last five years or so. I don't think it's sx-last, or I wouldn't  every time there's always some new song about my girlfriend/boyfriend that I just broke up with five months ago...


But why wouldn't people sing about love (regardless of instinct)? probably most relatable and...interesting human theme



> I actually really like Lorde. Her first album was great. I haven't listened to the new album, though. I think she's a Social 4.


She pissed me off too much with Royals to listen anything else lol
(I hate 'I don't care' songs unless they're obviously trying to be ironic, agree it's pretty social 4 or 6 though)



star tripper said:


> Nissa Nissa This is my go-to 100% sx song personally:
> 
> * *


I like this a lot, feels like sx-ier version of Sting
Really love that main line
But...I'm not sure...the thing for me is that this music, musically, doesn't seem to...get inside you? It's very...cloud-like to me, doesn't feel internalizable because you grab onto one part and the rest floats away (I'm not good at talking about music, just...I feel like sx music should...penetrate lol, don't really get this from this song (but I think I see why you type it sx)



> Of course the foundation of my point is that relationships/sex =/= sx instinct so that's probably the main thing that will be disagreed upon. I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For will always be more sx to me than any song Ed Sheeran will ever write, and ISHFWILF is not even about sex/love/relationships; it's fucking spiritual.


Actually...I wasn't sure what I thought about U2 being sx because...they have soooo many social themes, but as for penetrative music this has got to be close to the top of the list, this is really sx to me (also Elevation and Desire)






U2 in general though...I would think so/sx? A lot of their music feels pretty...washed-out? Not in a bad way, can't think of a better way to phrase it, but like...listening to 'Beautiful Day' or 'Still Haven't Found', you can stop listening in the middle, it's a pretty...low charge? 





> I know her instincts are still debated all the time, but to me, it's outrageous to label Taylor Swift anything but sx-last. Outrageous. It's like labeling Axl Rose literally anything other than sx-dom. I understand the reasoning: she sings about relationships exclusively and she has recently developed a taste for drama. But she just... doesn't have that soul-sucking focus. That commitment to personality. She's so dry when sx is wet (not an insult btw as I think some dry artists are fantastic).





Stellafera said:


> Sort of a So/Sx interpretation of current So/Sp culture:
> 
> * *


^This is why I think she is sx-second, not that this song is sx-y, the opposite, it's that lately she's been putting on (I assume) this so/sp 3 image and she seems _so awkward_ and it feels really unnatural and posed and she looks like a grandmother trying to pretend to be a young person, it's all very cringey

But her earlier music was I assume inspired by her life and pretty natural, it feels a lot more sx to me, and just a lot more...comfortable, I would argue that even "Love Story" is pretty sx (not sx-first but not sx-last, it's not contained, she sounds pretty desperate and passionate, think her being social and 2ish can kinda obscure how hard she was singing about her feelings)

Compared to an artist of a similar age who I'd consider sx-last, pretty sx theme (I went too far and kissed the ground beneath your feet/waiting for your love, waiting for our eyes to meet) but I think it has a sense of sx as other unlike Taylor for whom it seems integrated, and...I don't know...the style...


>


----------



## star tripper (Sep 1, 2013)

TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> Oh I get what you mean. Though I'm not a huge album listener, I relate to Lorde's album on a personal level. Maybe cause Lorde is an So/Sp type 4 too? "Liability" and "Loveless" in particular speak to me.
> 
> 
> "Bet you wanna rip my heart out
> ...


First of all, it is not even up for debate that Lorde is 4 so/sp lmao I totally get why you find her relatable. In the enneagram sense, she's the realest. 

Secondly, I agree that the music itself is a huge contributing factor to my theory. I keep using terms like "move," "breathe," and "wet" which can only be applied to the music itself essentially. I think phrasing of lyrics is relevant too though. For example, one of the reasons I just cannot get on board with Taylor as sx-second is the words she chooses. She tried to make a Lana Del Rey-style epic drama in Wildest Dreams and her opening chorus lyric?

Say you'll remember me standing in a nice dress

...standing in a nice dress. Jesus that has got to be the lowest energy lyric I have EVER FUCKING SEEN. If she had sx in her stacking, that is the single laziest use of it in the history of music (and yet still not her laziest lyric in recent memory). I'm not saying sx-last people write lazy lyrics, but if you're gonna make a passionate Lana-like song (Lana, though her type itself is more like sp/sx, really knows how to channel sx), "nice dress" would never even goddamn occur to you.

So yeah, I'm definitely with you here, but I also think the mechanics of a lyric can betray the subject's type too.



Nissa Nissa said:


> I like this a lot, feels like sx-ier version of Sting
> Really love that main line
> But...I'm not sure...the thing for me is that this music, musically, doesn't seem to...get inside you? It's very...cloud-like to me, doesn't feel internalizable because you grab onto one part and the rest floats away (I'm not good at talking about music, just...I feel like sx music should...penetrate lol, don't really get this from this song (but I think I see why you type it sx)


I get what you're saying, but that sounds more sx/sp to me. I've made this point before I think, but I see the second instinct as the direction of movement. Sx/so is a spiritual sort of movement that "takes you higher." Sx/sp is a paganistic movement that pulls you into your grave. I pick Furious Angels because the lyrics and vocals are sx/sp imo but the music is sx/so, so you get representatives of both forms of movement.



> Actually...I wasn't sure what I thought about U2 being sx because...they have soooo many social themes, but as for penetrative music this has got to be close to the top of the list, this is really sx to me (also Elevation and Desire)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You know how I posited sex/love/relationships =/= sx? I feel similarly about so. U2 to me are like Bruce Springsteen and Bob Dylan (6w5 sx/so). Much of their discographies target social issues, but they do it in a more sx/so way. So types tend to align themselves in multiple camps (you can even see it in signatures on this site: people listing their Hogwarts House, their D&D alignments, their political views, etc). Sx/so on the other hand tends to wear a specific social cause and become the paragon of that cause. Like Erik the Phantom who turned himself into a symbol of the opera.

I don't consider U2 low energy, rather spiritually intense. Bad, With or Without You, Mysterious Ways, One, So Cruel, Vertigo, The Fly, etc. can literally give the listener a religious experience. The contrast, as I've mentioned in other threads, would be Hozier.





vs








> ^This is why I think she is sx-second, not that this song is sx-y, the opposite, it's that lately she's been putting on (I assume) this so/sp 3 image and she seems _so awkward_ and it feels really unnatural and posed and she looks like a grandmother trying to pretend to be a young person, it's all very cringey
> 
> But her earlier music was I assume inspired by her life and pretty natural, it feels a lot more sx to me, and just a lot more...comfortable, I would argue that even "Love Story" is pretty sx (not sx-first but not sx-last, it's not contained, she sounds pretty desperate and passionate, think her being social and 2ish can kinda obscure how hard she was singing about her feelings)
> 
> Compared to an artist of a similar age who I'd consider sx-last, pretty sx theme (I went too far and kissed the ground beneath your feet/waiting for your love, waiting for our eyes to meet) but I think it has a sense of sx as other unlike Taylor for whom it seems integrated, and...I don't know...the style...


See I don't see her old music as sx either lol. I see it as sp 2 being marketed in an so way. Definitely with you on her new image being awkward. I think both images are awkward but she was less try-hard when she was masquerading as a country artist. Always wished she'd carry on with her Enchanted direction as that was both natural and higher quality than her usual.

But yeah, I definitely saw her earlier music as that cutesy conservative PICK ME! that resembles sp 2. Bragging about loving to bake cookies, play with her cat that's named after a Grey's Anatomy character, using teenage girl cliches in excess, etc. All very so marketing of sp values. That Aurora song and lyric you posted is actually really similar to Taylor's old music to me. Reminds me of The Way I Loved You and Hey Stephen. Sorry I'd post more examples but I'm on mobile.

I do think I get what you mean though on some level. I just saw a sexual Hilary Duff video and I gotta so Taylor IS more comfortable with sx than Hilary lol.


----------



## TheDarknessInTheSnow (May 28, 2016)

star tripper said:


> First of all, it is not even up for debate that Lorde is 4 so/sp lmao I totally get why you find her relatable. In the enneagram sense, she's the realest.
> 
> Secondly, I agree that the music itself is a huge contributing factor to my theory. I keep using terms like "move," "breathe," and "wet" which can only be applied to the music itself essentially. I think phrasing of lyrics is relevant too though. For example, one of the reasons I just cannot get on board with Taylor as sx-second is the words she chooses. She tried to make a Lana Del Rey-style epic drama in Wildest Dreams and her opening chorus lyric?
> 
> ...


Funny Wildest Dreams is my favorite Taylor Swift song. Lana is very subtle, and pulls back at the right places for a sensual effect, but even changing "nice" to a color would keep the subtlety and invigorate passion. Lust for Life, for example, is a genius song. I'm very big on melody.


----------



## TheDarknessInTheSnow (May 28, 2016)

One of my favorite songs, what instinct would this be? Sp/sx vibe going on I think


----------



## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

I think Wildest Dreams is funny because it kinda sounds like the idea for a song rather than a song, 'nice dress' line really...you can tell, she has a mental image, just that the lyric sounds like what she wrote to her director about how the music video should look 

Think she just wanted to channel Katherine Hepburn or something in a music video, but I think she forgot to put in the meat of what would make it totally effective

(I like the song or...the idea of it, the hook thing on 'even if it's just in your wildest dreams' is really nice, but it forces me to use my imagination too much, should've added more to the actual song, think it's just badly written)


----------



## Stellafera (Jan 19, 2015)

I'm not sure if current songs not having enough life in them is Sx-last. I feel like it has more to do with the proliferation of the internet and life being experienced through reading about other people's lives.

Plz the tin man has a heart guys


----------



## Strelok (Aug 16, 2013)

star tripper said:


> I get what you're saying, but that sounds more sx/sp to me. I've made this point before I think, but I see the second instinct as the direction of movement. Sx/so is a spiritual sort of movement that "takes you higher." Sx/sp is a paganistic movement that pulls you into your grave.


What about SP/SX?



star tripper said:


> You know how I posited sex/love/relationships =/= sx?


Thank you. I have no idea why people get the idea that SX = "sex, relationships and love". This definition is really good: http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...ce-thread-instinctual-variants-stackings.html



> *Sexual instinct* can be called the instinct of attraction. It’s aggressive, competitive, single-minded, "all-or-nothing". Use of this energy is intensely fiery and affirmative, go-get-it approach, a life-and-death matter e.g. salmon swimming upstream to mate and die. With this instincts you are either turned on or you're not - it is what it is; you cannot fight mother nature. With this instinct one's attention is wholly captivated energetically by someone or something.
> 
> The SX energy is described as "high energy" and is often experienced as "intense", "assertive", "laser-like", "intently focused", "playful yet penetrating" in nature. The feeling of SX-first is sometimes compared to being on a roller-coaster ride even though you aren't on one. This subtype will "sacrifice for the relationship" to insure intensity connection. This intensity does not have to be met by another person—it can be satisfied by a project, hobby, or special interest. Rather than looking inward or to the group to resolve their problems and challenges, these types tend to look to close relations and activities that can guarantee them an experience of liveliness and intensity.
> 
> ...


----------



## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Nissa Nissa said:


> But why wouldn't people sing about love (regardless of instinct)? probably most relatable and...interesting human theme


Yeah, and if it's relatable, it sells. Radiohead is a very so/sp band, and I think there's only about 2-3 songs in their entire discography that are explicitly sx, and even then it's not even very sx. "Love" is always the go-to topic for most mainstream artists today, because their songs never step outside their own experience, and hence why we have songs about Ed Sheeran's dates and how he ate food and talked about his date's family. Even that's too much for my sp/so! Try and make it a little more universal in scope. Hmm, maybe he's sp/sx, and it's the lack of Social that's more annoying to me.



Nissa Nissa said:


> She pissed me off too much with Royals to listen anything else lol
> (I hate 'I don't care' songs unless they're obviously trying to be ironic, agree it's pretty social 4 or 6 though)


Royals is probably my least favorite song of hers too. I still like it, but there's better songs on the album.


----------



## TheDarknessInTheSnow (May 28, 2016)

Heard this song on the radio today and I was like DAMN this is Sx/So. The way it ruptures unapologetically. Is Demi Lovato an Sx/So?


----------



## 0+n*1 (Sep 20, 2013)

star tripper said:


> This is my go-to 100% sx song personally:
> 
> * *


Just wanted to comment that song is amazing. My favorite from him is Nothing at all. Beautiful. 

"Will you walk into the grave with me? Will you leave this empty world soft and wistful to sink into the dark dank earth and never reappear? It would be blissful to float away into eternal space and God's silence where I'll watch your face and find patience and grace in each line there ."


----------

