# Inferior Si "Body Doesn't feel right" Panicking



## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Animal said:


> So you've had the same experience as me, then? Just to clarify: you're more likely to ignore it, but then after trauma, or being exposed to possible dangers, you had hypocondriac thoughts?


They just happened randomly but when they do I tend to ignore them unless im unhealthy which is why I changed my habits after those intense 3 months.

@arkigos, youre not an Ne dom which is how I would explain the reason you specifically have not witnessed hypocondria. Now the other Ne doms you know who havent had hypocondria would be anecdotal and I cant completely accept due to a possibility of mistyping, Ne dom not trying to explain to others the irrational thoughts they are having about sensations. Other than that I guess I could settle at it being different per individual and type, where certain types are more prone to hypocondria than others but all can get them at different times. I cant say thats a fact either because I have no clue how other types deal with hypocondria but I would say this seems to a most probable solution. Other than anecdotes all we have next is Jungs actual writings on what may happen to an Ne dom due to a repressed sensation of the object. Maybe thats just how hypocondria appears in Ne doms while other types have hypocondria appear in different ways for different reasons.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

I think intuitives can form a deep inner vision, that outside reality cannot touch. We know it is true intuitively. Like with my hypochondria; the doctors said I was fine, the tests showed I was fine, experience itself showed I was fine --I mean nothing ever happened to me. I had created this entire false narrative inside my head, that the outside world could not penetrate.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@_arkigos_

Not everything is about type. People who go through traumas have reactions that are unrelated to type. Healthy people talking about what chronically ill people think or shouldn't think, and that they can't be affected by what happens in THEIR OWN BODY is completely ridiculous.

Being unable to move, know my own name, losing my voice and my hair, persistent 105 fevers, etc, is not an "outside circumstance" it's my own life. Calling that being "influenced by outside circumstances" is absolutely absurd. Being on your death bed is your life and your body. That is not an outside circumstance, it's a very close to home, personal circumstance.

Based on what you've written I see you have absolutely no understanding of human nature, psychology or trauma-reaction so I am not going to debate with you about that aspect of things. I don't have time.

Just wait til you get sick one day. Then you will understand.  I hope that day is a long time from now, and you continue to live a healthy life, of course, but inevitably all of us will suffer physical ailments eventually. Until then, I hope you enjoy your blissful ignorance, retain your well being, and enjoy continuing to impose that lovely, rose-colored frame of mind on others. I hope you can go on in happiness, and assume all people are really healthy, and faking their illnesses and reactions to said illnesses which are clearly sprouting from personal weakness and "being affected too much by outside circumstances." Especially, of course, the melodramatic Fe doms.


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

@Shadow Logic - I am certain Ne-doms are not hypochondriacs. They aren't. I have observed plenty of Ne-doms. Life long friends, spouse, etc. It just isn't true. I could see the correlation to Si, but I've not even remotely seen it from Ne doms. It doesn't make sense other than on paper, and even then... your personal example notwithstanding.
@Animal - I am not saying that what you have experienced isn't real. I am sure it is overwhelmingly and utterly real. I have no doubt. I was speaking more towards the wording and emphasis in reaction. That's all. In doing so, I am sure I overstepped, if not technically at least ethically and rhetorically. If anything I said was read to diminish anything you've dealt with, I hate it and wish it never happened. Hopefully, though, aside from that there is something useful in what I said. It just doesn't feel like what I'd expect from ENFP in tone and emphasis. That's all. Take it with a massive grain of salt.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@_arkigos_
Just to be clear I'm not a hypochondriac, although I've become more that way since the trauma. I also haven't written about anything symptom-related on this forum, despite fighting a very serious chronic illness and I post a lot for more than two years, and still - nothing until now, because I was simply curious if this internal reaction - which I usually keep to myself, and which only lasted a matter of hours - had to do with Si inf.

My jaw continues to be messed up..it's getting worse and worse. But after my initial freak-out I've been mostly ignoring it and just figuring I'll handle it at the dentist next week. Despite receiving emails telling me that I might break my teeth and my mother calling to tell me the dangers. I really am not a hypochondriac at all, and I have very short spurts of visceral freak-out and tell no one and then get over it (faster than I should, probably). I only used this example on the thread because it came up.


What that means about my type, I don't know. It's just.. that is how I am/ who I have been on forum/ etc. Mostly I never talk about my specific health problems although I do talk a lot about my trauma-reaction and its affects psychologically. And my internal/ fiction life. But I almost never mention any actual physical things I'm going through. I only did in this circumstance out of intellectual curiosity. I felt a bit strange even talking about it in public/ at all. When my doctors ask me, they have to press me hard to get my symptoms because my personality is more "brave it" and "deal with it" and don't talk about it.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

I also wish to point out actually, that Jung associated hypochondria in particular with dominant Ni. I am too lazy to go fetch Chapter X quote right now because I'm off to bed that I ironically should have gone to well, 2 hours ago?, but got to love me some Se-sucking.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

arkigos said:


> @Shadow Logic - I am certain Ne-doms are not hypochondriacs. They aren't. I have observed plenty of Ne-doms. Life long friends, spouse, etc. It just isn't true. I could see the correlation to Si, but I've not even remotely seen it from Ne doms. It doesn't make sense other than on paper, and even then... your personal example notwithstanding.
> @Animal - I am not saying that what you have experienced isn't real. I am sure it is overwhelmingly and utterly real. I have no doubt. I was speaking more towards the wording and emphasis in reaction. That's all. In doing so, I am sure I overstepped, if not technically at least ethically and rhetorically. If anything I said was read to diminish anything you've dealt with, I hate it and wish it never happened. Hopefully, though, aside from that there is something useful in what I said. It just doesn't feel like what I'd expect from ENFP in tone and emphasis. That's all. Take it with a massive grain of salt.


My personal experience is also anecdotal along with yours which is why I cant take it as fact. If there is a possibility that you or they are a mistype, I cant consider it valid. I understand that you think you are certain but your certainty isnt an objective fact, neither is mine hence why I said i cant trust anecdotal evidence including my own hence why I used the excerpt straight from Jung. If you choose to not accept that then I will respect your decision and agree to disagree.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Yes, I have it on my hard drive:



> The introverted intuitive’s chief repression falls upon the sensation of the object. His unconscious is characterized by this fact. For we find in his unconscious a compensatory extraverted sensation function of an archaic character. The unconscious personality may, therefore, best be described as an extraverted sensation-type of a rather low and primitive order. Impulsiveness and unrestraint are the characters of this sensation, combined with an extraordinary dependence upon the sense impression





> The form of neurosis is a compulsion-neurosis, exhibiting symptoms that are partly hypochondriacal manifestations, partly hypersensibility of the sense organs and partly compulsive ties to definite persons or other objects.


Sounds just like me. I searched the whole book for hypochondria. It also listed under Ne, but less is said:



> He rids himself of the restrictions of reason, only to fall a victim to unconscious neurotic compulsions in the form of oversubtle, negative reasoning, hair-splitting dialectics, and a compulsive tie to the sensation of the object. His conscious attitude, both to the sensation and the sensed object, is one of sovereign superiority and disregard. Not that he means to be inconsiderate or superior he simply does not see the object that everyone else sees ; his oblivion is similar to that of the sensation-type only, with the latter, the soul of the object is missed. For this oblivion the object sooner or later takes revenge in the form of hypochondriacal, compulsive ideas, phobias, and every imaginable kind of absurd bodily sensation.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

There is _undoubtedly_ a relation between intuition and being out of touch with bodily sensations drawn by Jung, but how Jung applied his typology is probably so out of touch with the mass-classifications done with the popularization of his work that I personally have no faith that diagnoses of Animal's condition using application of select phrases from his writings will be accurate.

Here's the background to that quote, detailing what I mean, in that there would need to be strong evidence Animal exaggerates intuition pretty much wildly, as a somewhat innate disposition to existence. 

If there were evidence that this exaggeration were correlated with her illness, or existed prior to it, then I'd be convinced there is something to explore further in the inferior-sensation direction here.

Otherwise, nothing much can be concluded without diagnosing what Jung meant by such an exaggeration in depth, and going into Animal's intuitive dominance in depth.



> But* if, through a forced exaggeration of the conscious attitude*, a complete subordination to the inner perception should develop, the unconscious becomes an opposition, giving rise to compulsive sensations whose excessive dependence upon the object is in frank conflict with the conscious attitude. The form of neurosis is a compulsion-neurosis


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

The Ne description actually sounds exactly like Animal's problem. He/she dismissed all these sensations for so long, and they came roaring back. But also suffered a traumatic event, which causes a fundamental change. I haven't had any trauma. I just created it. I was never ignoring any signs or symptoms. They always had an "archaic" manifestation to me.


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

FearAndTrembling said:


> ....
> 
> 
> 
> > _He rids himself of the restrictions of reason, only to fall a victim to unconscious neurotic compulsions in the form of oversubtle, negative reasoning, hair-splitting dialectics, and a compulsive tie to the sensation of the object. His conscious attitude, both to the sensation and the sensed object, is one of sovereign superiority and disregard. Not that he means to be inconsiderate or superior he simply does not see the object that everyone else sees ; his oblivion is similar to that of the sensation-type only, with the latter, the soul of the object is missed. For this oblivion the object sooner or later takes revenge in the form of hypochondriacal, compulsive ideas, phobias, and every imaginable kind of absurd bodily sensation._


Yes, I could see this - but even when the 'revenge' comes, I'd expect it to manifest more as a tic - or a peculiar view of some malady or quirk. Like, a bizarre explanation for something wrong with the body. Like "I get sick every third tuesday" or something like that, with an almost mirthful or off-handed aire. They might truly believe it but it strikes as being their imagination getting away from them and not really thinking. Or framing a bodily sensation in a compulsive way, like, ... almost like swatting at a fly that has always been there and coming to accept it and even invent some narrative to its permanence. The overwhelming constant is the disregard... the deprioritization. Chronic obliviousness - like they can't be bothered. Because they are so removed from the physical, they just either put it off forever or just go to the doctor and just zone off while the doctor gives them whatever and they take it and probably don't even know what it is. It's a nuisance that they are 'superior' to, I guess... but, yeah, they just don't see it the same way, the manifestation of the object is overlooked and set aside. 

Ne types definitely regard physical maintenance as a nuisance, that only peripherally occurs to them - usually due to some other motivation.

It gets at them, but it will remain in an unconscious quality. Like a phobia or a tic. I suppose that could be hypochondria, but if so it is just one of many possible manifestations. One that I have not personally seen. 

I cut my nails to the point that they bleed. This is a PERFECT example. The maintenance bothers me, so I just rip the damn things off. People think I've gone mad. It's such a tic.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

bearotter said:


> There is _undoubtedly_ a relation between intuition and being out of touch with bodily sensations drawn by Jung, but how Jung applied his typology is probably so out of touch with the mass-classifications done with the popularization of his work that I personally have no faith that diagnoses of Animal's condition using application of select phrases from his writings will be accurate.
> 
> Here's the background to that quote, detailing what I mean, in that there would need to be strong evidence Animal exaggerates intuition pretty much wildly, as a somewhat innate disposition to existence.
> 
> ...


Something is being exaggerated either way. And they could feed on each other. Even if her intuition wasn't the cause, it could be what is helping perpetuate it. It is a form of synergy. Like anxiety and heartburn for example. Heartburn can cause anxiety, and anxiety can cause heartburn. Or heartburn can worsen anxiety. They feed each other. Having one condition can make you more susceptible to another. 

I am just kind of mixing Jung's thoughts with modern rational and cognitive therapy. I think she obviously needs to a professional.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Something is being exaggerated either way. And they could feed on each other. Even if her intuition wasn't the cause, it could be what is helping perpetuate it. It is a form of synergy. Like anxiety and heartburn for example. Heartburn can cause anxiety, and anxiety can cause heartburn. Or heartburn can worsen anxiety. They feed each other. Having one condition can make you more susceptible to another.
> 
> I am just kind of mixing Jung's thoughts with modern rational and cognitive therapy. I think she obviously needs to a professional.


I don't need to see a professional. ;D I'm not crazy/ overreacting. I typed out my extreme reaction while it was happening and now I'm fine. I'm seeing the dentist next week case closed.

I see plenty of doctors for my illness and they are surprised how well I handle myself psychologically and how sane and rational my approach to my illness is, compared to most people with half my illness (according to tests) who lose their minds and give up on life. My parents are both psychiatrists. My mental health is fine. Perhaps my description of my reaction at that time seemed extreme bc I wrote it in the midst of a 'moment.'

I kind of wish I didn't write it now because things are being blown out of proportion. Though I am also enjoying the arguments between people about this issue. And the facts and Jung quotes & all else.  so keep it coming!




> *The Ne description actually sounds exactly like Animal's problem. He/she dismissed all these sensations for so long, and they came roaring back*. But also suffered a traumatic event, which causes a fundamental change. I haven't had any trauma. I just created it. I was never ignoring any signs or symptoms. They always had an "archaic" manifestation to me.




^ Yeah that's what I was wondering. I am inclined to agree based on the quotes. That this is a combination of trauma AND inf-S which I initially thought.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

FearandTrembling said:


> Even if her intuition wasn't the cause, it could be what is helping perpetuate it.




For what it's worth you just brought the quotes up so I wasn't criticizing that or anything.
And my first post in this thread brought this point up as I knew it would be brought up. (and just to be clear, yes the point is valid for consideration.)

My general response to this thread is it might just as well be 90%+ trauma/other personal matters, and to give that due consideration, plus to detail exactly the sign to look for if this indeed is inferior-sensation-related.. Animal does not identify as a complainer by disposition, but trauma can definitely lead to certain things bothering one more than they did before, even if complaint still isn't the adopted answer.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

arkigos said:


> Yes, I could see this - but even when the 'revenge' comes, I'd expect it to manifest more as a tic - or a peculiar view of some malady or quirk. Like, a bizarre explanation for something wrong with the body. Like "I get sick every third tuesday" or something like that, with an almost mirthful or off-handed aire. They might truly believe it but it strikes as being their imagination getting away from them and not really thinking. Or framing a bodily sensation in a compulsive way, like, ... almost like swatting at a fly that has always been there and coming to accept it and even invent some narrative to its permanence. The overwhelming constant is the disregard... the deprioritization. Chronic obliviousness - like they can't be bothered. Because they are so removed from the physical, they just either put it off forever or just go to the doctor and just zone off while the doctor gives them whatever and they take it and probably don't even know what it is. It's a nuisance that they are 'superior' to, I guess... but, yeah, they just don't see it the same way, the manifestation of the object is overlooked and set aside.
> 
> Ne types definitely regard physical maintenance as a nuisance, that only peripherally occurs to them - usually due to some other motivation.
> 
> ...


I think such things are trivialities, and hate to deal with them too. I went over 10,000 miles without changing oil in my car. Engine went. lol. Warranty would have covered it, but I didn't properly maintain. Cost me over 10k in the end. So I went from barely even knowing my car needed oil to becoming well versed, and quite anal about it now. 

Same thing with my hypochondria. I would take any drug you gave me in my teens and early 20s. I would mix anything. I didn't care. In the very recent past, I got nervous even trying a new shampoo because I was so nervous I could have a bad reaction. I am over that now though. But if I took like coke or acid today, I would have a full blown panic attack, and be in the ER. I know I would. I am fundamentally different, and I am not sure why. 

And these are all really control issues. We aren't in control of our bodies. Our bodies are dumb as fuck, and can kill us at any time. I don't control any of the interior workings. It is all involuntary. So I don't trust that my body is dealing with the issue properly, because I am not in control. If my heart stop functioning properly, I can't fix it. I can't tell my body that an allergen is really not bad for me, and please don't swell my throat shut.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

bearotter said:


> For what it's worth you just brought the quotes up so I wasn't criticizing that or anything.
> And my first post in this thread brought this point up as I knew it would be brought up. (and just to be clear, yes the point is valid for consideration.)
> 
> My general response to this thread is it might just as well be 90%+ trauma/other personal matters, and to give that due consideration, plus to detail exactly the sign to look for if this indeed is inferior-sensation-related.. Animal does not identify as a complainer by disposition, but trauma can definitely lead to certain things bothering one more than they did before, even if complaint still isn't the adopted answer.


Oh, I know. I was just pointing out that even if it isn't the cause, it could be irritating it. I changed too, with really no trauma. Then changed again. lol. somewhat. I can't even imagine how I would deal with real trauma.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

bearotter said:


> Animal does not identify as a complainer by disposition, but trauma can definitely lead to certain things bothering one more than they did before, even if complaint still isn't the adopted answer.


I had so much trouble figuring out my types bc I never wanted to 'complain' or advertise my real problems. I didn't mind talking about mistakes I made in the past, human stuff, deep psychology, imagination , goals, failures etc, on enneagram forum. It's not like I tried to paint myself as 'perfect' or 'flawless' by any means. But I just don't like to complain. Discussing is one thing - being pitied is another. Writing a post like this is actually a tremendous growth for me, and I did it for educational purposes, re: MBTI because it's something I've been wondering about for a while, and the occasion arose to address it while it was happening so that I had the vocabulary to discuss it.


I do express my darker feelings/ complaints but mostly in artwork and most of the blame is directed at myself.

Another reason I don't like to complain in text is because of 'dramatic rhetoric.' It's just the way I express myself; everything happening right now feels like it's forever. Fi, maybe? or something. This is why I keep most of my drama in my diary or artistic expression. To spare myself the wrong kind of attention and instead put the drama in a context where it's relateable, beautiful and can provide a mirror for others who are suffering internally.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Animal said:


> I don't need to see a professional. ;D I'm not crazy/ overreacting. I typed out my extreme reaction while it was happening and now I'm fine. I'm seeing the dentist next week case closed.
> 
> I see plenty of doctors for my illness and they are surprised how well I handle myself psychologically and how sane and rational my approach to my illness is, compared to most people with half my illness (according to tests) who lose their minds and give up on life. My parents are both psychiatrists. My mental health is fine. Perhaps my description of my reaction at that time seemed extreme bc I wrote it in the midst of a 'moment.'
> 
> ...


I was actually thinking the same thing. You are handling it extremely well. I have been through no trauma, have no medical issues, etc.. and still had problems. So may not need a professional. But I am kind of of the mind that therapy is just good in general. Just to set a time and place aside every week to talk about these kind of issues. I go to therapy every two weeks just for that. Maybe you don't need that.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

FearAndTrembling said:


> I was actually thinking the same thing. You are handling it extremely well. I have been through no trauma, have no medical issues, etc.. and still had problems. So may not need a professional. But I am kind of of the mind that therapy is just good in general. Just to set a time and place aside every week to talk about these kind of issues. I go to therapy every two weeks just for that. Maybe you don't need that.


I want to but I don't know if I can afford it 

My family has so many medical expenses. And there isn't a good therapist around here that is covered by insurance. 

I definitely agree with you about the benefits of therapy though. Especially being that my parents are psychiatrists and I know so much about their methods.  While I love them both and they love me, you can't get therapy from your own family, so they do help me figure things out but not the way a good therapist would.

If my novel gets published..or some pop star decides to cover my songs.. or other things take off… perhaps then I can afford to pay for a _good_ therapist out of pocket. Or move out of this area where expenses are unmanageable.

For now PerC & the friends I've made here have been so amazing. I have a little chat room on skype with a few friends from PerC and talking about all our problems together has worked wonders  it's a support group, its so lovely. And also someone else who I talk to individually. Since PerC is a psychology forum, I've met other people who came here with the intention of self-improvement. And it has worked!! Better than therapy ever did, though I will definitely admit that the problem is not being able to find the right therapist. TBH, not trying to sound conceited but it'd be difficult to find a better therapist than my parents. They are very very good and so, someone who doesn't 'get it' as well as they do, I see through it too quickly. :/


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Animal said:


> everything happening right now feels like it's forever. Fi, maybe? or something.


Since of time and perception has nothing to do with Fi but more exactly that - sense of perception. Fi is more about feeling what is right or wrong, good or bad etc for myself.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

ephemereality said:


> Since of time and perception has nothing to do with Fi but more exactly that - sense of perception. Fi is more about feeling what is right or wrong, good or bad etc for myself.


Makes sense. Yeah, I don't know what it is. Fi was a wild guess..

I was thinking along the lines of 'my body doesn't feel _right/good_… but I see your point. It made sense in my head at the time but now it doesn't.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Animal said:


> Makes sense. Yeah, I don't know what it is. Fi was a wild guess..
> 
> I was thinking along the lines of 'my body doesn't feel _right/good_… but I see your point. It made sense in my head at the time but now it doesn't.


Nah, Fi only draws judgement about ethical implications: This person is a bad man; I really like this woman; This is the most amazing experience I've ever had; This action is the only right thing to do; I can't do this because it doesn't feel right. I would say that deriving ideas about body feeling weird, odd, uncomfortable etc would be more associated with Si depending on how it's perceived.


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