# Triad Paradoxes



## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

*Does anyone else find that they relate the strongest to triads that are in conflict with each other? Does your preference for one or more of the object relations, social styles, harmonic and head/heart/gut styles conflict with the others?*


http://www.fitzel.ca/enneagram/graphics/enn_obr_all.gif

As far as the head/heart/gut based triad: I relate the strongest to head, second, to heart and last to gut but this does not necessarily square off with the other triads.

I relate most to 5w4 but I relate most the frustration triad, second, to the rejection triad and last, to the acceptance triad.

As far as the Social styles: I relate most to the withdrawn triad, second, to the assertive triad and last, to the compliant or superego triad.

As far as the Harmonic triads go; I'm having trouble figuring that out as I relate to all three about equally. I am extremely positive - 7; insist and taking time to understand things logically before I react - 5 and tend to get my feelings hurt - 4; which I then detach from and turn it into anxiety.


This is paradoxical because the only withdrawn type in the frustration triad is a 4 but I think that I'm too positive and reframing to be a 4 and if there is a silver lining to be found in any situation - no matter how bad; rest assured, I will find it. 

I could be a 5 - withdrawn and competent. I am always searching for knowledge, because I view knowledge as power and as long as I understand what I need to understand about any given situation; I feel confident that I will be protected from any possible negative occurrences.

I could be a 7 - frustration, positive and assertive; see above. That's how I know that I am not a 9, because I always find a way for getting me needs met; one way or another. Is it remotely possible to be both withdrawn _and_ assertive?

I know that some people have suggested 6 for me but since I relate to both the acceptance and compliant triads the least; that would knock 6 out of the running; since it comes in dead last in both the object relations triad and the social styles triad and 9 comes in last in the object relations triad.

So, if I guess if I could figure out which of the harmonic triads I relate to the most; I guess that would greatly help. 

If I was frustration, assertive and positive; then I would be a 7.
If I was withdrawn, competent and rejection; then I would be a 5.
If I was withdrawn, reactive and frustration; then I would be a 4.

*Where a possible paradox would come in; is if I determined that I was either a frustration, withdrawn and positive type, because there isn't one or if I decided that I was a competent, withdrawn and frustration type or even a positive, withdrawn, rejection type or a withdrawn, rejection, reactive type.*

Since none of these are possible; I am either misidentifying the correct triads that I fit into or I don't accuratley fit them.

I personally identify the strongest with the withdrawn, frustration and competent triads and in that order but while I loathe conflict; I hate even more not getting my needs met.




*So does anyone else find that the designated triads of their respective type, don't necessarily line up with all of the triads?*


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

TreasureTower said:


> *Where a possible paradox would come in; is if I determined that I was either a frustration, withdrawn and positive type, because there isn't one or if I decided that I was a competent, withdrawn and frustration type or even a positive, withdrawn, rejection type or a withdrawn, rejection, reactive type.*
> 
> Since none of these are possible; I am either misidentifying the correct triads that I fit into or I don't accuratley fit them.
> 
> *So does anyone else find that the designated triads of their respective type, don't necessarily line up with all of the triads?*


I think it just shows the inaccuracy of the triads (they're just generalizations that we make to satisfy our obsession to find patterns using the symbol).

The Enneagram starts with the over-ambitious task of categorizing 7+billion people in the world into 9 types then tries to categorize those 9 types into a myriad of triadic variations, then we wonder why we don't quite fit into these categories that the "experts" (people selling the Enneagram) say that we should.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

At the same time, just because one doesn't buy one description of the triads doesn't mean they aren't valid. One might simply have to find the right description (I'm in the category excessively comfortable with generating and believing my own descriptions, but there can be merit to checking against various other descriptions). 

You can also try thinking about what various enneagram combinations would do. For instance, what if you decided to slightly switch things up: 4w5+7wX+9w1. That's double-frustration plus some wing action. I mean this is naive pasting, which I don't recommend in favor of deeper reflection, but sometimes naive pasting games generate something interesting.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

bearotter said:


> At the same time, just because one doesn't buy one description of the triads doesn't mean they aren't valid. One might simply have to find the right description (I'm in the category excessively comfortable with generating and believing my own descriptions, but there can be merit to checking against various other descriptions).
> 
> You can also try thinking about what various enneagram combinations would do. For instance, what if you decided to slightly switch things up: 4w5+7wX+9w1. *That's double-frustration plus some wing action*. I mean this is naive pasting, which I don't recommend in favor of deeper reflection, but sometimes naive pasting games generate something interesting.


That sounds like an airplane tryst gone wrong. :laughing:


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

I'm not sure anymore whether or not, I am frustration first, or rejection because I don't know if the reason that I a frustrated is due to detachment and seeing no point to being engaged - 5 or frustration due to me believing that no matter what I do; I doubt it's actually possible for anyone to truly understand me - 4?

*Am I detached due to being continuously frustrated or frustrated because; the very nature of detachment precludes, frustration?*

I also think that I may be in the competency triad but I'm the least clear with that one and I can relate to all 3, more or less.
@bearotter, I was also thinking your idea sounds like some fast food nightmare as well. 

:laughing:


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@TreasureTower I really didn't realize it would wind up sounding that funny :O I put a lot of thought into what I say but less into the words sometimes


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

bearotter said:


> @TreasureTower I really didn't realize it would wind up sounding that funny :O I put a lot of thought into what I say but less into the words sometimes


You know I came up with a good scenario to illustrate this.

let's take an infant who cries in order to get his needs met and if the parents attend to his needs more or less consistently, he expects that they will eventually get me. - acceptance? If the parents fail to be consistent in their behaviour towards him and their caretaking isn't necessarily related to his cries for help; then he knows that his needs will get met - eventually but he has absolutely no control over this and winds up resenting his parents for their unpredictable and inconsistent caretaking - frustration. If the parents ignore his needs save minimal survival needs altogether; then he ceases crying altogether because he realizes that his needs aren't going to be met due to parental neglect. - rejection.

Now, this is more allegorical then realistic as in the last example; the infant would develop severe reactive attachment disorder, not just be part of the rejection triad. These are exaggerations and the triads are not correlated to psychological health but I used this example to illustrate the way that I view the triads:

Acceptance - the individual expects to get her needs met.
Frustration - the individual expects to be frustrated in getting her needs met.
Rejection - the individual expects to not get her needs met.


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## Choice (May 19, 2012)

TreasureTower said:


> I could be a 5 - withdrawn and competent. I am always searching for knowledge, because I view knowledge as power and as long as I understand what I need to understand about any given situation; I feel confident that I will be protected from any possible negative occurrences.
> 
> I could be a 7 - frustration, positive and assertive; see above. That's how I know that I am not a 9, because I always find a way for getting me needs met; one way or another.* Is it remotely possible to be both withdrawn and assertive?*


What do you mean by withdrawn? What's wrong here? The way I interpret this - I've seen many introverts who prefer keeping to themselves the majority of the time who are also assertive...?


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Choice said:


> What do you mean by *withdrawn*? What's wrong here? The way I interpret this - I've seen many introverts who prefer keeping to themselves the majority of the time who are also *assertive*...?


Withdrawn triad: 4,5,9
Assertive triad: 3,7,8
Compliant (Superego) triad: 1,2,6


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

The thing is nines find a way of getting needs met too. A 9w8 has an assertive wing for instance. 
You ultimately have to look deeply. I think the issue is the various points on the enneagram influence us, and people (including oneself) can often spot a valid influence, but there's a reason it takes a lot of getting through layers and layers and layers.

I think the feeling overwhelmed by one's emotions can very well be a nine thing...or rather I could see a nine instinctually avoid situations that would cause this overwhelming effect (but a sort of voiding of emotions can probably also happen in five, for instance if there's an implicit resignedness as to ever finding a place for emotions involving reaching out and away from oneself towards something else --- I'd say hoarding/avarice when central to the psychology can have this effect), but I'm not sure what exactly to make of that. What's the real focal point of the enneatype pulls? Is being overwhelmed by emotions a central struggle in life, for instance...


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

bearotter said:


> The thing is nines find a way of getting needs met too. A 9w8 has an assertive wing for instance.
> You ultimately have to look deeply. I think the issue is the various points on the enneagram influence us, and people (including oneself) can often spot a valid influence, but there's a reason it takes a lot of getting through layers and layers and layers.
> 
> I think the feeling overwhelmed by one's emotions can very well be a nine thing...or rather I could see a nine instinctually avoid situations that would cause this overwhelming effect (but a sort of voiding of emotions can probably also happen in five, for instance if there's an implicit resignedness as to ever finding a place for emotions *involving reaching out and away from oneself towards something else *--- I'd say hoarding/avarice when central to the psychology can have this effect), but I'm not sure what exactly to make of that. What's the real focal point of the enneatype pulls? Is being overwhelmed by emotions a central struggle in life, for instance...


I have many struggles that the other types have as well. The two that seem to stand out most to me are expressing myself authentically and being understood - 4 and more significantly, being willing to actively engage in life.

I read Naranjo's description of the 5 and with the exception of the part about being "cold", which I am definitely not; it really struck a cord with me; even 'though I've read it dozens of times before.

I'm not happy because I am at a deep unconscious level, I am basically unwilling to engage in life and I really don't know how to change it. I do know that whenever I do try to stop detaching and actually get actively involved in something; I develop overwhelming panic attacks until I withdraw again. I wish I knew why I did this and then maybe, I could alter the meaningless, predictable course of my life that won't be any different; unless I do.

:dry:

It's almost as if there is some kind of block preventing me from doing that. I know that I am not a 9 - despite the obvious similarities; I don't over adapt to life; I egregiously *under* adapt to it. I wish I had the 9s ability to merge with their environment. I feel too separate from everything around me; not immersed in it. I strongly suspect that's one of my main motivations for becoming a Buddhist; to feel connected to something outside myself and my mind, because all I experience is a void; because I don't actually experience life. Whenever I am around other people; I compulsively watch myself, watching myself and as if I was watching a film. I really don't _want_ to do that; I want to be _present_ but for some reason that I have yet to figure out; I automatically detach from _doing_ anything and relating to others. I must be extremely good at it, however because unless I am either physically or emotionally unwell at the time; nobody can tell that I'm doing this.

I think that the reason I relate to both types is because when I am able to actually engage; I feel very much like a 4; completely at the mercy of my emotions and extremely vulnerable to any outside stress, and then I need to withdraw in order to conserve my energy - except that I take this to an extreme. There have been days (it's getting better now); where doing the most insignificant thing can cause me immense anxiety. If I am actually able to accomplish something; it decreases in intensity but then I feel controlled by all of the things that I have to do and feel trapped by all of the expectations that my environment has on me.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

TreasureTower said:


> I want to be _present but for some reason *that I have yet to figure out*; I automatically detach from doing anything and relating to others._


Probably this bolded part has to be resolved before anything will click further than it is doing now (if such clicking is warranted, desired, or etc). The "why" to me is all the more crucial, even if the "what" is a starting point.

I don't tend to think much of the concept of fixating on look-alike types, aside from it being a trouble-shooting mechanism to get a beginning user out of the conceptions they come in with from sources negating any sort of seamlessly put together portrayal of the system.
In fact, it's a lot more useful to me to consider how types are really not the same at all, and I find this is a bigger challenge. 

I tend to think of things like feeling overwhelmed as symptoms of _something_ rather than of a type directly, where anxiety is another "symptom", but whilst associated to the 6, can really crop up in many types. This is an indirect comment, btw, not quite a response to your latest post.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

bearotter said:


> Probably this bolded part has to be resolved before anything will click further than it is doing now (if such clicking is warranted, desired, or etc). The "why" to me is all the more crucial, even if the "what" is a starting point.
> 
> I don't tend to think much of the concept of fixating on look-alike types, aside from it being a trouble-shooting mechanism to get a beginning user out of the conceptions they come in with from sources negating any sort of seamlessly put together portrayal of the system.
> In fact, it's a lot more useful to me to consider how types are really not the same at all, and I find this is a bigger challenge.
> ...


Well the thing is that after reading the type 5 description in Naranjo; I then understood how I might have an 8 soul child -Maitri - the repressed part of me; that really wants to be actively involved in my life and not a spectator but for some reason; to do that would terrify me. It's almost as if I don't think I have the energy to do that. I really wish I knew WHY I have this problem, because if I did; then I might be able to come up with a way of fixing it.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

TreasureTower said:


> to do that would terrify me. It's almost as if I don't think I have the energy to do that. *I really wish I knew WHY I have this problem*, because if I did; then I might be able to come up with a way of fixing it.




That's part of what I get at, yes -- the "Why" could be very enneagram-related. It also could involve a fair share of data that doesn't fit neatly into enneagram, but can help put enneagram in perspective once it's placed for its own sake.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

I found this link about how the different triads resolve conflicts and based on this; I am definitely a competency type. Both overly negative or overly positive types can get on my nerves. Negative types, most of all because they don't want to find actual solutions to their dilemas and positive types can bug me, by acting like an issue either doesn't exist or by making light of it. I value looking for realistic, practical solutions to problems.

http://www.fitzel.ca/enneagram/graphics/enn_har_all.gif


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