# Unusually logical ENFJ or unusually compassionate ENTJ



## RobynC (Jun 10, 2011)

Can a dynamic like this happen whereby a person is right on the boundary between thinking and feeling and as a result would yield a person who's an ENFJ who seems unusually logical and seems almost like a soft ENTJ, or an ENTJ who is more feeling than typical and would seem like a hard ENFJ?


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

No I don't think such flip is possible. The orientation of ENFJ's and ENTJ's F functions is different. ENTJ uses introverted feeling. ENFJ uses extraverted feeling. These are very different cognitive functions in their essence. (same applies to logic of these two types, one's logic is extraverted, the other's logic is introverted)

I have met very likable ENTJs possessing good social skills and pushy destructive ENFJs. This depends more on individual's life experiences and what values/principles the person has internalized rather than MBTI cognitive functions.


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## RobynC (Jun 10, 2011)

When I've taken the MBTI, I generally am pretty close to the boundaries on Thinking/Feeling, I'm also pretty close to the boundaries on Extraversion/Introversion.


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## TheOwl (Nov 3, 2010)

ENFJ is Fe - Ni - Se - Ti. Feeling is dominant. ENTJ is Te - Ni - Se -Fi. Thinking is dominant. It would be difficult for them to be confused.
However, INFJs (Ni - Fe - Ti - Se) and INTJs (Ni- Te - Fi - Se) can appear very similar. INFJs will develop their Ti in teenage years and later and become better at using logic. INTJs will develop their Fi is teenage years and later and will act more like a feeler. 

This isn't a matter of thinking vs feeling but a matter of Te/Fi vs Fe/Ti. 

If you're an ENTJ or INTJ, you value Te and Fi.

*Te* organizes and schedules ideas and the environment to ensure the efficient, productive pursuit of objectives. Te seeks logical explanations for actions, events, and conclusions, looking for faulty reasoning and lapses in sequence.
*Fi* filters information based on interpretations of worth, forming judgments according to criteria that are often intangible. Fi constantly balances an internal set of values such as harmony and authenticity. Attuned to subtle distinctions, Fi innately senses what is true and what is false in a situation.

If you're an ENFJ or INFJ, you value Fe and Ti.

*Fe* seeks social connections and creates harmonious interactions through polite, considerate, and appropriate behavior. Fe responds to the explicit (and implicit) wants of others, and may even create an internal conflict between the subject’s own needs and the desire to meet the needs of others.
*Ti* seeks precision, such as the exact word to express an idea. Ti notices the minute distinctions that define the essence of things, then analyzes and classifies them. Ti examines all sides of an issue, looking to solve problems while minimizing effort and risk. It uses models to root out logical inconsistency.


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

all things are possible! (cue tomatoes at the Ne-dom). 

seriously though... yes, it's possible. an ENFJ enneagram 5 or 8 will probably seem "harder" than an ENTJ enneagram 3w2.


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## RobynC (Jun 10, 2011)

I'm just curious because when I've taken the MBTI, I've gotten a slew of different readings including the following: ESTJ and ESTP initially because I didn't understand the meaning of the questions regarding abstract/conceptual (though I did enter the fact that I'm fascinated by theoretical research). Once I understand that N/S was based on long term or short-term thinking, and I tend to be a long-term thinker; I entered the according results with the results reading ENTP, ENFP, ENFJ, when I took the personality on this site I came up as ENTJ. Finding this surprising, I even low-balled some of the estimates that would cause me to come up as ENTJ yet the results kept reading the same. 

I find it very difficult to believe that I would be an ENTJ as I'm not "cold" enough. I do generally have a strong desire to do the right thing, strangely this isn't even necessarily out of benefit to myself (I suppose it comes down to the fact that if people didn't do the right thing, society would disintegrate, or would require a totalitarian regime to hold it together which honestly strikes me as horrific). While I believe in efficiency, and am not fond of inefficient procedures; simultaneously, I realize that some procedures that seem inefficient actually have a good use, and in some cases I think it would actually be better to be moderately efficient than incredibly efficient if being moderately efficient would benefit the greater good (i.e. say incredibly efficient would hurt 90% of the population, and being moderately efficient would benefit 90% of the population, I would be in favor of being moderately efficient -- it works reasonably well, yet simultaneously it actually benefits everybody.

I'm not a very empathetic person, and I clearly believe that competence is important (I definitely would not be the type to hire my friends to do a job; I'd hire the best people for the job, so long as I didn't believe them to be morally bankrupt, but while I value competence, and an honest appraisal of a person's capabilities; I do believe you should try to be compassionate to people when possible, though to be honest, I'm not always the best at doing it.

When I took the enneagram test, it listed not only your primary type, but the percentages for the other types. Type 8 was on top, then Type 1, which was just below it; 3 and 7 were the same. When I looked at the Enneagram forums, it turns out that there are common identification errors between Type 8 and Type 1. Both are action oriented, willful, and have strong notions of how to go about doing things. From what was stated Type 1's were generally more idealistic, tended to think more intellectually upon seeing injustice; they tended to have a greater concern about actually being right, tried to reign in their aggressive impulses. Type 8's would react more viscerally to what they perceived to be injustice, generally acting on the fly; they tended to not be as concerned about being right or wrong, and tended to give more free reign to their aggressive impulses.

I would eventually retook the test based on what I read and it turns out I came out with type 1 on top, then 8 in the secondary position. Effectively, I'm a type 1 with a lot of 8 characteristics.

So, what do you make of all of this?


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## TheOwl (Nov 3, 2010)

You sound like a healthy ENTJ to me. I can't be completely sure, though. Did you read the descriptions of Fe/Ti and Te/Fi? Which one do you relate to more?

You can have values and good morals and still be a T type. Think Abraham Lincoln (said to be INTP. Thinking dominant). You can be an F type and go wrong. Think Charles Manson (said to be ENFP).


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## Monkey King (Nov 16, 2010)

> I find it very difficult to believe that I would be an ENTJ as I'm not "cold" enough. I do generally have a strong desire to do the right thing, strangely this isn't even necessarily out of benefit to myself (I suppose it comes down to the fact that if people didn't do the right thing, society would disintegrate, or would require a totalitarian regime to hold it together which honestly strikes me as horrific). While I believe in efficiency, and am not fond of inefficient procedures; simultaneously, I realize that some procedures that seem inefficient actually have a good use, and in some cases I think it would actually be better to be moderately efficient than incredibly efficient if being moderately efficient would benefit the greater good (i.e. say incredibly efficient would hurt 90% of the population, and being moderately efficient would benefit 90% of the population, I would be in favor of being moderately efficient -- it works reasonably well, yet simultaneously it actually benefits everybody.


You've just aligned your goals to benefit that of the general population. Besides, I don't think it's really efficient if it would compromise 90% of the population. There has to be a greater benefit to make such a sacrifice. I'd easily sacrifice 20% of the population if 80% of the population survives. For me, my concern is impacts and outcomes. The method can change and I may not completely agree with it but so long as it eventually leads to greater results; I don't mind. 

As for the enneagram. A couple months ago my tritype was 3w4-6w5-8w9. Now that I've decided on my career path the 8w7 changed to 1w2. I was surprised to see it change since my enneagram scores were always consistent. As you seem to be a type 1, perhaps that's why you feel more inclined to being right to benefit the whole rather than the self entirely. From the descriptions I've read of type 1's, I usually envision some type of warrior of justice; corny as it may be, that's how it really sounds like to me. Which isn't a bad thing, and quite admirable in fact.


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## RobynC (Jun 10, 2011)

*TheOwl*



> You sound like a healthy ENTJ to me. I can't be completely sure, though. Did you read the descriptions of Fe/Ti and Te/Fi? Which one do you relate to more?


That's kind of the thing, I relate to both extraverted and introverted thinking modes; as for feeling, well in regards to extraverted feeling, this particular section regarding that I would have a conflict between my own needs and others seems to resonate a bit with me; In regards to introverted thinking, this particular section that talks about being able to sense what is true and false in a situation generally resonates with me. I'm not the most socially adept person but when I generally spot something that sounds nonsensical, I can generally tell -- that's bullshit.


*Aila8*



> You've just aligned your goals to benefit that of the general population.


Correct



> Besides, I don't think it's really efficient if it would compromise 90% of the population.


A lot of people don't seem to grasp this.



> There has to be a greater benefit to make such a sacrifice.


Yes, but many people can always rationalize the sacrifice as being part of a greater benefit or delude themselves into believing so whether it really is or not.



> As you seem to be a type 1, perhaps that's why you feel more inclined to being right to benefit the whole rather than the self entirely.


Well, I can't say "rather than the self entirely". I have my own interests and have operated in them sometimes. However I generally believe that one needs to factor both the self and the whole into the equation. After all, if you operate solely in your own interests, you end up a supremely narcissistic (if not sociopathic) individual; if you operate solely in the interest of the whole, you are neglecting the fact that the whole is actually composed of numerous individuals, which despite having a series of common objectives and goals, have their own individual needs, feelings and desires.



> From the descriptions I've read of type 1's, I usually envision some type of warrior of justice; corny as it may be, that's how it really sounds like to me. Which isn't a bad thing, and quite admirable in fact.


Well, in reality we're more like people who hate to see injustices and want to fix them.


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## RobynC (Jun 10, 2011)

*TheOwl*



> You sound like a healthy ENTJ to me.


Just to be clear, when you say "healthy" you mean a level-headed example of a person with that MBTI type right? Because I have asperger syndrome (which until I was in college was misdiagnosed as all sorts of things because it AS wasn't even a diagnosis until 1994) made fitting in very hard as a kid, I was routinely involved in fistfights (because I knew that if you beat a person senseless; they generally left you alone, and in the event that it didn't work, a second pounding generally did the trick); I had/have various OCD tendencies (from 21 to 23 I was practically debilitated), as a kid I got the crap beaten out of me numerous times (I still have scars on my back) and spent my time fantasizing about murdering my step-dad until another person beat me to it.



> Fe/Ti and Te/Fi?


Regarding what I said in the earlier post, what do you make of that?


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## Tridentus (Dec 14, 2009)

you might want to consider INFJ/INTJ which have 2nd and 3rd judging functions.. it is normal for these types to experience this..

do you tend to talk more about your logical view and keep feelings more to yourself or vice versa? for example as an Fi/Te user i tend to like talking about my various theories and the logical rules of life with friends as well as occasionally judging others based on logical rules (Te also has a trend of finding emotions "weak") wheras my feeling judgements are contemplated when i'm alone- ill think back to things that happened yesterday, etc. and figure out how i feel about it and what my morals have to say about it- these things i am less willing to divulge and when i do it feels unnatural.

the opposite applies for Fe/Ti users. i've actually found it very irritating when Fe users force their morals down my throat, it makes me feel they are being controlling and that they have no right to tell me what my moral judgement on a matter should be. i've heard likewise is the same with Ti users around those using Te.


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## RobynC (Jun 10, 2011)

*Tridentus*



> you might want to consider INFJ/INTJ which have 2nd and 3rd judging functions.. it is normal for these types to experience this..


With the MBTI, I'm listed as being mildly extraverted, so what about ambiversion



> do you tend to talk more about your logical view and keep feelings more to yourself or vice versa?


I kind of tend to talk about my logical views and my moral/ethical views in an outspoken manner. I could be wrong but I tend to be more outspoken about ethical issues (I see more problems in this area lately) though I tend to be concerned to some degree with both. 

When it comes to discussing feelings, I don't think I experience emotion to the same extent as most people (which might have to do with the way I was raised), other than perhaps OCD type anxiety issues (though I don't talk about it unless it came up in a conversation). I don't think I'm hugely outspoken about my emotions though. Regardless, I tend to be direct and straightforward about most things.


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## rin111 (May 23, 2012)

to be honest i was never comfortable with the idea of ENFJs being martyrs who give their all unto the crowds.

I talk to a lot of people and have at least 5 friends to talk to on a daily basis, when im normal but i have only one friend among the lot who's really worthy of being called my friend. It may seem cold and deceptive but unless i've given the others my word and sworn that they're my friends, they are outsiders-very friendly outsiders with whom i talk and smile and laugh, but who never see me cry and are never around when *I* need a helping hand.

If i'm not close to said person i won't go out of my way to do anything for him/her. I can be pretty coldly logical, if i feel the situation deserves it.

as far as charity goes, I dont hire people who are inefficient or can't work well. Im more likely to hire someone i don't know well if they can get the job done because where work is concerned practicality works better than feelings and nostalgia. 
If i feel someone isn't putting their back into their work and im in charge if them they'll either have to pull up their socks or get ready to be chucked out.

I don't know if this is what you meant when asking your question but from the description of ENFJ they come across as sensitive souls who never hurt anyone and allow their emotions to reign over practical cold hard logic. i've never met any ENFJ irl, so i don't know if this is true.


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## rin111 (May 23, 2012)

oh, and in situations where there's a conflict and someone comes to me asking for judgment, i generally look at it and come to a conclusion based on who did the right thing and who did wrong. basically, my feelings don't play a part 

I may not tell the person immediately because they'd be in an emotional fit and saying they were wrong wouldn't help the situation at all but i would file it away to explain to them later on.


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## arc72 (Aug 14, 2009)

> If i feel someone isn't putting their back into their work and im in charge if them they'll either have to pull up their socks or get ready to be chucked out.


When it comes to ENFJs and firing people, I have one IRL example. My dad's an ENFJ and a business owner. His business partner (who eventually came to rank below my dad in the business) merited getting fired but my Dad never fired him. My dad was excessively patient with this guy by typical business standards. I find that my Dad is is mostly all talk when it comes to administering cold hard decisions like terminating someone's employment (which I prefer to a Judge Judy-type father).


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## Bel Esprit (Aug 2, 2011)

ENTJs are naturally inclined to be more comfortable with emotions than other thinking types are. 

I haven't seen it said that ENFJs are more logical of the feelers, but it seems that way to me; INFJs as well.

You need to pay attention to your cognitive functions in this scenario. You could be an ENFJ with good use of Te or an ENTJ with good use of Fe. It's not uncommon.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Morality and compassion really has nothing to do with being an F type. This is all forum myth perpetuated by people who just don't know what they're talking about. Honestly, there's a lot of silly assumptions in this thread. Feeling is evaluation (e.g. better/best, etc.) - that's it, in most basic terms. Every type has every function, and obviously, T types care about a lot of things (just really, why I have to even say the obvious here is a testament to all of the issues with the MBTI). I would definitely say that you're a Te dominant (I see no hints of Fe at all - you're running on technical reasoning, which inferior T types tend to struggle with).


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

RobynC said:


> Can a dynamic like this happen whereby a person is right on the boundary between thinking and feeling and as a result would yield a person who's an ENFJ who seems unusually logical and seems almost like a soft ENTJ, or an ENTJ who is more feeling than typical and would seem like a hard ENFJ?


Yes, it's possible but they wouldn't appear very similar. An unusually logical ENFJ would be more Ti-bound while an unusually compassionate ENTJ would be more Fi-bound. 

The ENFJ wouldn't really use Te very much and the ENTJ wouldn't really use Fe much so while you could have a logical NFJ or compassionate NTJ, they would still be very different in how it's expressed.


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## RobynC (Jun 10, 2011)

@MNiS
And what's the difference between Fi and Fe?


R.C.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

RobynC said:


> @MNiS
> And what's the difference between Fi and Fe?
> 
> 
> R.C.


*Fe - Extraverted Thinking:* Connecting; considering others and the group—organizing to meet their needs and honor their values and feelings; maintaining societal, organizational, or group values; adjusting to and accommodating others; deciding if something is appropriate or acceptable to others. Considering what would be appropriate for the situation: “One should or shouldn’t wear…” or “People will think…”

*Fi - Introverted Feeling:* Valuing; considering importance and worth; reviewing for incongruity; evaluating something based on the truths on which it is based; clarifying values to achieve accord; deciding if something is of significance and worth standing up for. Evaluating whether you like an outfit or not: “This outfit suits me and feels right.”

Cognitive Processes


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## RobynC (Jun 10, 2011)

Uh, I have characteristics of both, though probably more Fi than Fe


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

RobynC said:


> Uh, I have characteristics of both, though probably more Fi than Fe


That's natural. Whichever best describes you would best indicate your type. For instance trying to decide between ENTP or ENTJ. If you find you relate more to Fi then you're like an ENTJ. Vice versa for Fe and ENTP.


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## zanderp (Dec 14, 2015)

cyamitide said:


> No I don't think such flip is possible. The orientation of ENFJ's and ENTJ's F functions is different. ENTJ uses introverted feeling. ENFJ uses extraverted feeling. These are very different cognitive functions in their essence. (same applies to logic of these two types, one's logic is extraverted, the other's logic is introverted)
> 
> I have met very likable ENTJs possessing good social skills and pushy destructive ENFJs. This depends more on individual's life experiences and what values/principles the person has internalized rather than MBTI cognitive functions.


OMG! I've been looking for an answer to this forever! (Like a month lol) I have an ENFJ brother and his logic is way overdeveloped for an ENFJ but it totally works like Ti. I can't believe I never thought about it like that. Because I couldn't figure out why he had such a good logic streak, but didn't quite seem like an ENTJ. He is good at leading, from being an ENFJ, so that made it more difficult to understand. I have heard that over-using a tertiary or inferior function can indicate being stuck in a rut, so it would totally make sense. Because he doesn't seem like himself when he does it.


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## lukebtc (Apr 18, 2016)

RobynC said:


> Can a dynamic like this happen whereby a person is right on the boundary between thinking and feeling and as a result would yield a person who's an ENFJ who seems unusually logical and seems almost like a soft ENTJ, or an ENTJ who is more feeling than typical and would seem like a hard ENFJ?


I thought I was an INTP at some points and not an INFP, but really, Myers-Briggs doesn't hold up so well in cases like this. The solution is to look at your Cognitive Functions. That's really what Myers-Briggs is: the order in which your brain processes and prioritizes information. So to be an INTP, it would mean that my most-developed and primary cognitive function is Introverted Thinking, taking things in according to logical coherency, rather than Introverted Feeling, taking things in according to how they fit into my value system.

What distinguishes values and priority in personality is the Enneagram. I am a 6w7, which explains why I have a more developed Thinking function. You can be the same type and have a different Enneagram type, and that's why Myers-Briggs doesn't really capture the type; it only captures the common conception of that type. It's a category.


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

What do you do with new information you are taking in?
How do you process the information?


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## RobynC (Jun 10, 2011)

@Ksara

Depends on hte information


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

RobynC said:


> @Ksara
> 
> Depends on hte information


Information that requires more than just you to be on auto pilot.


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## RobynC (Jun 10, 2011)

Can you provide me a scenario?


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## Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar (Apr 9, 2015)

Get read by Pod'Lair?


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

RobynC said:


> Can you provide me a scenario?


Ok, say you boss (or who ever is in charge) gives you a task. Its quite large with several components.

One part requires speaking to clients for input and information required. This requires flexibility due to when the client is available, their location, etc. You don't know who you will be speaking too (CEO, manager, worker, etc)

Another part is to manage the finances of the project. This is quite predictable, requiring you to go through data sheets, and to look up the costs of materials and place them for order. Does not require you to leave the office.


Which if the two tasks would you prefer and why?
Are there aspects of the other task you prefer and why?

How would you approach you chosen task?

If you were given the option to work with another (who is competent), would you work with them?

How do you think you would handle this team work if you had to work with another?

How would you handle working by yourself if teamwork wasn't an option?

Is it more important to have competent people around you to effectively get the job done? Or is it more important for you to have a supportive atmosphere to work in?

If your client was a firm who has a bad reputation for dodgy stuff. would you still continue your job due to a promotion, or would you refuse to offer your services due to this reputation? Explain why.


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## RobynC (Jun 10, 2011)

@Ksara

1. Which task would I prefer? 
When I was younger, I'd have said handling the finances. Now, honestly part of me would rather interact with the people. There are things you can get done by negotiating with people directly.

2. Aspects of the other task I prefer?
I don't mind interacting with other people, and unless the people I worked with were quite interesting, I'd probably get bored.

3. How I would approach the task?
Read through as much as I could for an overview, and identify what I could easily sort out on my own; find people who could accomplish the tasks I couldn't; if the time table was significant, I'd delegate even the tasks I could do to competent people I could trust.

4. If I had the option of working with another person who was competent, would I?
Generally provided I didn't think they were doing something immoral, or criminal. You can be competent and criminal.

5. How would I handle solitary work?
Depends on how hard the task is.

6. Supportive Atmosphere or Competent People?
Competent people should accomplish the task, I guess in that case I'd be the support!

7. If the firm was known for doing unethical things, would I take the job for a promotion, or ditch the promotion?
Depends on how unethical.


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

RobynC said:


> @Ksara
> 
> 1. Which task would I prefer?
> When I was younger, I'd have said handling the finances. Now, honestly part of me would rather interact with the people. There are things you can get done by negotiating with people directly.
> ...


Here is what stands out to me, you seem to pay attention to the ethics others adhere to. To me this would suggest not ENTJ as their feeling function is the most suppressed function. ENTJs are the "means justify the ends" guys. It would not matter if the person they worked with was immoral, or had done something unethically, if they are able to get the job done in an efficient manner (that is not going to land them on the wrong side of the law lol) then the who they work with does not matter.

I also don't see an ENTJ contributing to a supportive atmosphere. I can see them wanting to be in charge, managing others, running the show, and able to fore see any pitfalls that may come up. I can see thing picking the right people for the right job, and want them to prove their competency. This to me is not being supportive or creating a supportive atmosphere.

I don't think your are a strong T by this assessment (though this is short and my interpretation). I'm not getting a sharpness from you.


I was actually trying to gauge the I or E aspect as well.
Where do you naturally and comfortably find you attention. What are you observing/aware of?


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## RobynC (Jun 10, 2011)

@Ksara



> Here is what stands out to me, you seem to pay attention to the ethics others adhere to.


Well, there are several kinds of categories of ethics


Moral/Ethical positions that both me and others adhere to
Moral/Ethical positions that others adhere to that I don't
Moral/Ethical positions that I adhere to that others don't



> To me this would suggest not ENTJ as their feeling function is the most suppressed function.


Usually anyway, it's Fi. However, it seems that these are general rules as there are some ENTJ's on this forum who have combinations that don't perfectly fit the Te Ni Se Fi mold. I've seen Te and Ti in proximity in some cases, and others that were unusual.



> ENTJs are the "means justify the ends" guys.


Ends justify the means...



> It would not matter if the person they worked with was immoral, or had done something unethically, if they are able to get the job done in an efficient manner (that is not going to land them on the wrong side of the law lol) then the who they work with does not matter.


Clearly, I don't want to end up on the wrong side of the law; I however would not want to work with a person who I suspected was a psychopath as they could undermine my safety -- they could undermine other people too.



> I also don't see an ENTJ contributing to a supportive atmosphere.


Supportive atmospheres tend to work more effectively from my own experience than non supportive ones. You do have to lay down the law, and "put a boot in somebody's ass" at times. It's best through to not create excessive competition and divisiveness as you end up with everybody trying to undermine each other, (and sometimes the whole group), and save their own hide. I also prefer to have people who are comfortable telling me what's going on. It's better that way, plus it saves me the efforts of having to go through all sorts of machinations to figure it out myself.



> I can see them wanting to be in charge, managing others, running the show, and able to fore see any pitfalls that may come up.


1. A lot of people want to be in charge for one reason or another.


They simply want the power for it's own sake _(E8, E3)_
They don't want others telling them what to do _(E8, E5)_
They can do things the way they want to _(E5, E7, E8)_
They want success and prestige _(E3, E8)
_
It sounds cool (E3, E7, E8)
They want to be seen as valuable and helpful _(E2, E3)_
They figure if they're in charge, they can provide security for themselves _(E6, E8)_
They can do things a better way than most others _(E1, E3, E5, E6, E7, E8)_



> I can see thing picking the right people for the right job, and want them to prove their competency. This to me is not being supportive or creating a supportive atmosphere.


Almost any good leader will hire people who knows what they're doing. I can determine competency through conduct _(plus they might apply for work and in such a situations -- I do look through sources -- a lot of people don't, but I do)_.



> I was actually trying to gauge the I or E aspect as well.
> Where do you naturally and comfortably find you attention.


I assume you mean what gives me energy?



> What are you observing/aware of?


Lots of things


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

RobynC said:


> @Ksara
> 
> Well, there are several kinds of categories of ethics
> 
> ...


Interesting. I had never thought to categories ethics as such.



> Usually anyway, it's Fi. However, it seems that these are general rules as there are some ENTJ's on this forum who have combinations that don't perfectly fit the Te Ni Se Fi mold. I've seen Te and Ti in proximity in some cases, and others that were unusual.


For ExTJ, Fi is repressed. That is introverted feeling is unconscious, and tends to affect life in ways the individual is unaware of. it is not a conscious perspective to take. It is often aroused through stressful periods. Especially when making decisions, feelings are kept out of it, or feelings affect them more than they are aware of.

I can definitely accept a person utilizing Ti and Te well.
Not Te and Fi unless they are some extreme self aware individual, or so unaware they have yet to differentiate any particular function.



> Ends justify the means...


I believe that can be the attitude of an ENTJ.



> Clearly, I don't want to end up on the wrong side of the law; I however would not want to work with a person who I suspected was a psychopath as they could undermine my safety -- they could undermine other people too.


If the psychopath is useful, then they are useful. If they are the most competent person in the room, able to handle the job, then logically they are the best for the job.
If the potential hazard is going to decrease efficiency then they are a bad investment.

That would be a more utilitarian process, Te.
The 'if' probably determined by a hunch, intuition.





> Supportive atmospheres tend to work more effectively from my own experience than non supportive ones. You do have to lay down the law, and "put a boot in somebody's ass" at times. It's best through to not create excessive competition and divisiveness as you end up with everybody trying to undermine each other, (and sometimes the whole group), and save their own hide. I also prefer to have people who are comfortable telling me what's going on. It's better that way, plus it saves me the efforts of having to go through all sorts of machinations to figure it out myself.


I just see an ENTJ more concerned with an efficient atmosphere surrounded by competent people. People performing below the standard seen as stupid (for lack of a better word) and tend to lose respect for. Though this would be more an individual who has room to grow.
I think at their best they are able to identify what works and to employ it, even if that means to be encouraging. I am guessing somewhat.




> 1. A lot of people want to be in charge for one reason or another.
> 
> 
> They simply want the power for it's own sake _(E8, E3)_
> ...


The same argument can be made for MBTI types 
ExTJ like to get stuff done.
Also there's no E4 or E9 haha.



> Almost any good leader will hire people who knows what they're doing. I can determine competency through conduct _(plus they might apply for work and in such a situations -- I do look through sources -- a lot of people don't, but I do)_.


Yes. However they aren't going to allow their feelings to make the decision. If person A had the talent for the job (and came from a rich family) and person b was ok (but really needed the job), it would be a no brainier decision to employ the person with the credentials. It's not personal.

This would be much harder for a feeling type, wanting to make a decision considering the more human elements.

Where do you think you fall with this?



> I assume you mean what gives me energy?
> 
> Lots of things


Can you elaborate on what these things are?




Also, more random questions. Are you aware of and somewhat adhere to social roles? What is your take on them?


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## RobynC (Jun 10, 2011)

@Ksara



> Interesting. I had never thought to categories ethics as such.


Keep in mind when I first heard of the enneagram, type 1 was the type I actually identified with most. Later on, I took a test and came up as an 8 because I guess I can be somewhat pushy, even forceful, and could be somewhat forceful and may have learned some life strategies from my dad and uncle _(8w7, and 8w9 respectively)_. It was only when I started to realize that at least some of my concern with right and wrong is because without it, society would descend into fucking mayhem. At that point, I came up as 6, which struck me as weird _(E6 seemed so nervous and anxious and stuff and, while tests bothered me a lot, I didn't usually think of myself in that manner, and rarely came off as anxious to most people)_, though I do have much of the characteristics and when anxiety is basically almost the entire background, you are often unaware of it, except when it's not there _(then you feel oddly serene)_. Truthfully 6w5 SP/SX and 1w2 SP/SX both fit me and I have traits of both.



> For ExTJ, Fi is repressed. That is introverted feeling is unconscious, and tends to affect life in ways the individual is unaware of.


Could you provide me an example of this?



> Especially when making decisions, feelings are kept out of it, or feelings affect them more than they are aware of.


I have considered the possibility of ENFP as I'm not sure of Ne and Ni



> I can definitely accept a person utilizing Ti and Te well.


Yeah, I kind of use both



> If the psychopath is useful, then they are useful. If they are the most competent person in the room, able to handle the job, then logically they are the best for the job.


They're never good: They're a snake in the grass that can swing around and bite you at the wrong time.



> I just see an ENTJ more concerned with an efficient atmosphere surrounded by competent people. People performing below the standard seen as stupid (for lack of a better word) and tend to lose respect for.


Nobody wants people who can't do their job. That's not good and I doubt I would have hired them: If I saw they had growth potential, I could live with that (almost everybody does).



> I think at their best they are able to identify what works and to employ it, even if that means to be encouraging. I am guessing somewhat.


I usually can figure out what works. I'm not sure if that's so much a function of intelligence or what.



> The same argument can be made for MBTI types


True



> This would be much harder for a feeling type, wanting to make a decision considering the more human elements.


I seem to be able to do both. A practical side, and a human element side -- especially as the human element ultimately effects everything by in large.



> Where do you think you fall with this?


I'm honestly considering some kind of ENFP thing. It's got Te and Ne in there, a Fi higher up on the scale.



> Can you elaborate on what these things are?


I have traits that are strangely ambiverted: I like being outside and about, I like being with friends and am fine at parties. On the other hand I like to read and do so quite a lot (you'd be surprised how much).



> Also, more random questions. Are you aware of and somewhat adhere to social roles? What is your take on them?


I think it depends on social roles: I'm not really that fixated on them as I've done lots of "guy things"


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

RobynC said:


> @Ksara
> 
> Keep in mind when I first heard of the enneagram, type 1 was the type I actually identified with most. Later on, I took a test and came up as an 8 because I guess I can be somewhat pushy, even forceful, and could be somewhat forceful and may have learned some life strategies from my dad and uncle _(8w7, and 8w9 respectively)_. It was only when I started to realize that at least some of my concern with right and wrong is because without it, society would descend into fucking mayhem. At that point, I came up as 6, which struck me as weird _(E6 seemed so nervous and anxious and stuff and, while tests bothered me a lot, I didn't usually think of myself in that manner, and rarely came off as anxious to most people)_, though I do have much of the characteristics and when anxiety is basically almost the entire background, you are often unaware of it, except when it's not there _(then you feel oddly serene)_. Truthfully 6w5 SP/SX and 1w2 SP/SX both fit me and I have traits of both.


To be honest I don't know how enneragram affects things.



> Could you provide me an example of this?


Here's a link to inferior Fi.
http://personalitycafe.com/entj-articles/95932-form-inferior-function-fi.html
This often 'erupts', that is there is no control over when it does, or for how long.
What i found from jung


Jung said:


> The inferiority of feeling in this type manifests itself also in other ways. In so far as it corresponds with the dominating positive formula, the conscious attitude becomes more or less impersonal, often, indeed, to such a degree that a very considerable wrong is done to personal interests. When the conscious attitude is extreme, all personal considerations recede from view, even those which concern the individual's own person. His health is neglected, his social position deteriorates, often the most vital interests of his family are violated -- they are wronged morally and financially, even their bodily health is made to suffer -- all in the service of the ideal. At all events personal sympathy with others must be impaired, unless they too chance to be in the service of the same formula. Hence it not infrequently happens that his immediate family circle, his own children for instance, only know such a father as a cruel tyrant, whilst the outer world resounds with the fame of his humanity. Not so much in spite of as because of the highly impersonal character of the conscious attitude, the unconscious feelings are highly personal and oversensitive, giving rise to certain secret prejudices, as, for instance, a decided readiness to misconstrue any objective opposition to his formula as personal ill-will, or a constant tendency to make negative suppositions regarding the qualities of others in order to invalidate their arguments beforehand-in defence, naturally, of his own susceptibility. As a result of this unconscious sensitiveness, his expression and tone frequently becomes sharp, pointed, aggressive, and insinuations multiply. The feelings have an untimely and halting character, which is always a mark of the inferior function. Hence arises a pronounced tendency to resentment. However generous the individual sacrifice [p. 440] to the intellectual goal may be, the feelings are correspondingly petty, suspicious, crossgrained, and conservative. Everything new that is not already contained formula is viewed through a veil of unconscious and is judged accordingly. It happened only in middle of last century that a certain physician, famed his humanitarianism, threatened to dismiss an assistant for daring to use a thermometer, because the formula decreed that fever shall be recognized by the pulse. There are, of course, a host of similar examples.
> 
> Thinking which in other respects may be altogether blameless becomes all the more subtly and prejudicially, affected, the more feelings are repressed. An intellectual standpoint, which, perhaps on account of its actual intrinsic value, might justifiably claim general recognition, undergoes a characteristic alteration through the influence of this unconscious personal sensitiveness; it becomes rigidly dogmatic. The personal self-assertion is transferred to the intellectual standpoint. Truth is no longer left to work her natural effect, but through an identification with the subject she is treated like a sensitive darling whom an evil-minded critic has wronged. The critic is demolished, if possible with personal invective, and no argument is too gross to be used against him. Truth must be trotted out, until finally it begins to dawn upon the public that it is not so much really a question of truth as of her personal procreator.


Link here:
Classics in the History of Psychology -- Jung (1921/1923) Chapter 10

Not how the inferior function is "unconcious". The individual can not see how his extreme actions are based on feeling. His external formula of truth is 'important' (a feeling judgment).



> I have considered the possibility of ENFP as I'm not sure of Ne and Ni


Well it would explain how you are tossing up between feeling and thinking in general.
But on the other hand there would be Ne every where.

A note, it's 4 pages in and you are still on topic. Ne to me seems more bouncy.
Have you spent any time in the ENFP forum? If so how do you relate?

Also, do you spend more time having random ideas come to mind that you presume have a connection to what previously came, at times able to pull stuff out of your ares on the spot, and even contradictions can both be held as potentially true? It is such that possibilities drive your life?
Or do you find you are aware of how data you encounter fits with other data, you are easily able to discern if something fits or contradicts with previous knowledge collected? What is true is your life focus.



> Yeah, I kind of use both
> 
> 
> They're never good: They're a snake in the grass that can swing around and bite you at the wrong time.


From experience?

This is a feeling judgment, how 'good' a person is. Strong thinking types avoid such colourful judgment. The focus is on what is, either the individual is a psychopath or isn't, either they are attacking me or they aren't, either that is useful or a hindrance. Either it is true or false.
It's not personal. They aren't looking at (or really aware of) how important an individual/thing is. They aren't concerning themselves if they feel attracted to or repulsed by an individual. Such feelings are often irrelevant. it isn't personal.




> Nobody wants people who can't do their job. That's not good and I doubt I would have hired them: If I saw they had growth potential, I could live with that (almost everybody does).


It's about the concept of fairness.

What do you consider fair?



> I usually can figure out what works. I'm not sure if that's so much a function of intelligence or what.


I don't know either.



> True
> 
> I seem to be able to do both. A practical side, and a human element side -- especially as the human element ultimately effects everything by in large.


Hmm, ok say you had to be friendly, nice, supportive to your work colleges. It was required you had to give lots of complements and to avoid any critiscim. Say this was required for your job. How would you react? would you follow the rules? and if so would you be sincere or just doing what was nexessary?

Say you worked for the company Pepsi, and weren't allowed to drink Coke. You however like drinking Coke. How would you handle the situation? 



> I'm honestly considering some kind of ENFP thing. It's got Te and Ne in there, a Fi higher up on the scale.


I would consider hanging out in the ENFP forum. I'm not really getting an ENFP feel from you, but that's just an impression.



> I have traits that are strangely ambiverted: I like being outside and about, I like being with friends and am fine at parties. On the other hand I like to read and do so quite a lot (you'd be surprised how much).


I'm not asking for what activities you do (both extroverts and introverts can do all those things), I'm asking where your mental focus is.

Ok say you are in a conversation with a friend. What are you aware of? Even if it seems insignificant, just elaborate anyways 
If you have an example, great.



> I think it depends on social roles: I'm not really that fixated on them as I've done lots of "guy things"


Guy things come form social roles 

Social roles aren't just what females do with their socializing and social groups lol. Men can have sodial roles to (e.g. to be a provider for their family, to be strong and tough person, etc).

A social role is the social position someone is in, this defines what behavior is appropriate between two people. Its the relationship dynamic between a boss and employee or a teacher a student. This determines what is appropriate behavior in this dynamic. A student will behave very differently around other students compared to their teacher.

Someone who strongly values Fe is going to be aware of such roles and feel it's important and appropriate to conform to. They generally feel this determines what is right and this creates a harmonious atmosphere. They may value being "the good friend" and so they act ho a "good friend" would. O they may identify with the "rebel" and will do what "rebels" do.

Fi could care less about this. It's very individual and about following how they actually feel removed from any such external influence. People are people, they are all individuals. If a personal value was broken the strong Fi user would have no issue breaking social convention.


Mind you this gets muddled as a function moves lower down in the stack and begins to become repressed.


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