# Ask a Bisexual a question!



## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

I have no idea if a thread like this exists but there have been many times I've wanted to through out questions to bisexuals on these forums but couldn't find them... so here I am, hoping to gather the rest of you people.

I'll throw pansexual under this bracket too.

Shoot.


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## pwowq (Aug 7, 2016)

Fuccgal or fuccboi?


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

pwowq said:


> Fuccgal or fuccboi?


Never heard of a 'fuccgal'... are they meant to be the exact same as 'fuccbois' but with boobs? Or more like slutty teens? I actually think girls who look like a sterotypical 'fuccboi' are pretty cute in terms of an androgynous style. Like seriously cute. Otherwise the answer has got to be neither!


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## septic tank (Jul 21, 2013)

I've heard that bisexuals are attacked sometimes by homosexuals for... I guess having the option to appear straight? Is this true in your experience?


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

Nabbit said:


> I've heard that bisexuals are attacked sometimes by homosexuals for... I guess having the option to appear straight? Is this true in your experience?


Yes

One of my butch lesbian friends and I got into it verbally round and round we went. She basically was playing a victim card for homosexuals (I really was not disputing some of the discrimination they face). She just was basically discriminating against bisexuals because her plight is worse. 

Some homosexuals in a click or group setting will shun bisexuals. Not all bisexuals is the thing tho. Usually from my observation in my area the lipstick lesbians are fine. The butch or bull **** tho specifically HATE more strong or bold fem but still 'strong' bisexuals. They themselves try to convert fem bicurious girls (so they do not hate all bisexuals specifically they dislike the dominant female bisexual who they are threatened by and angry they can have it anyway they want it in society.) 

So not all bisexuals it's often the hot but bold and dominant ones that basically can come thru and snatch up their lipstick fem and rob them of their hunt for the really femme Bicurious girls. Dominant bold yet fem bisexuals get their pick of any liter and butch lesbians HATE this from my experience.


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## Majority (Oct 3, 2016)

Do you lean one way or the other?


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Nabbit said:


> I've heard that bisexuals are attacked sometimes by homosexuals for... I guess having the option to appear straight? Is this true in your experience?


My personal experience is being invisible more than targeted. My sexuality doesn't matter to most homosexuals unless I'm in a gay relationship or looking for one because they it's easy for them to accept me as one of them.

I don't hang out in LGBT communities really though, I just pick up a lot of LGBT friends along the way.

If I'm in a hetero relationship then I no longer have a voice when it comes to claiming minority or victim. Which I completely understand, I'm aware that I have it easier when I'm in a heterosexual relationship it's still frustrating that my past is no longer relevant to the conversation.

So y'know, I fight to remind people of my sexuality and it's cringy. I'm either trying to prove I'm one of the guys by objectifying women which just isn't me anyway or I try to prove it by giving my history of partners. I really shouldn't have anything to prove it doesn't matter what they think.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Majority said:


> Do you lean one way or the other?


The whole scale just never worked for me. I've always claimed I'm 50/50 if I had to place myself somewhere. I honestly can't say who I'm attracted to more and it just seems like a weird thing to choose. My past shows both genders in equal measurement conveniently I guess.

I know that men and women are different and I guess because of that I like both genders for different reasons but to me it makes as much sense saying "I prefer blondes", it doesn't stop you from falling for all of those brunettes and 'blonde' doesn't actually tell anything about the person.


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## sriracha (Sep 19, 2010)

At what age did you find out that you were bisexual? Did you accept yourself then or later? If later, what age was that? Did you have any experience of denying to yourself that you're bisexual? 

How did you reveal yourself to your family and friends (if they know)? How were their responses?


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## pwowq (Aug 7, 2016)

sriracha said:


> At what age did you find out that you were bisexual? Did you accept yourself then or later? If later, what age was that? Did you have any experience of denying to yourself that you're bisexual?
> 
> How did you reveal yourself to your family and friends (if they know)? How were their responses?


I respect my bisexuality and myself. I've never seen it as weird, negative and never experienced self-doubt due to societal expectations. "Everyone can love everyone"-approach. Before my early twenties I did really think attraction, love, infatuation was boundless for everyone. I've never had a reason to 'come out' and I've never had a reason to distance myself from my sexuality. Still have no reason to splurt myself out to the world. If I get a question I'll be answering honest thou.

LGTB-community needs some modesty in the countries that doesn't repress people imo. Less is more, less silly pride. Yeah, Pride in my country isn't needed anymore. The population understands the message.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

sriracha said:


> At what age did you find out that you were bisexual? Did you accept yourself then or later? If later, what age was that? Did you have any experience of denying to yourself that you're bisexual?
> 
> How did you reveal yourself to your family and friends (if they know)? How were their responses?


I was adamant that I was straight until I was 14 and fell head over heels for my best friend. Then I realised I couldn't really deny it. In hindsight there were signs in my childhood that I liked both but as a child everything is so inocent and not-sexual that it's impossible to interpret.

My story was pretty smooth sailing, unlike other people I was in an environment where it was okay. My mum had this conversation with me about "I'll love you no matter what" before I was old enough to understand sexuality so I knew coming out to my parents would be fine. I did so about the same time I worked it out... it was mostly accidental, a valentines gift for my friend and thought nothing of until my mum asked who it was for then I realised "Oh, yeah, you don't know...". (FYI, nothing happened between me and said friend but it might have just been because they were so loudly gay that I fell so hard for them. We're still friends, we're cool.) I think my dad was awkward about it but he didn't voice that, he was adamant to prove nothing had changed but made awkward nervous jokes about my sexuality to 'prove' how cool he was with it... Both of my parents proceeded to tell me about their 'bisexual' experiences when they were younger in order to understand me. That was awkward and also didn't really count because it ended with "but I knew I was straight".

I guess it still took me some time to know for sure... for some reason I felt like I wouldn't know until I have relationships with both genders. I broke up with my highschool girlfriend partially because I need to know.

I never told my grandparents/aunt/uncle/extended family. Some conservative people there and as far as they know I've been in heterosexual relationships and that's all that matters.

Honestly I've had more trouble pretending to be the 'best friend' instead of the partner to some exes family members and friends... having a relationship when you are out with someone who isn't is tough.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

Nabbit said:


> I've heard that bisexuals are attacked sometimes by homosexuals for... I guess having the option to appear straight? Is this true in your experience?


_If I had a penny; 
_
It is only a (short-time); before some lesbians become rather (offended) and start devolving into slurs / insults (and a wide range of projected) insecurities [and adhering to irrational biases with no sound basis] - when I address their bi-phobia [first hand]. Not because I sought it; but rather, I just happened to be in the _wrong place; at the right time_. Apparently, they are not accustomed to many specimen doing such things due to in-group lesbianism-cognitive-biases. However, I have since let these women be. 

I can extend _my sympathies_ to the lesbian(s) with terrible experiences involving bi-curious specimens however; such humanoids tend to forget, that lesbians _fall in love_ (&) develop emotional-attachments - not just "sexually," enjoy other women. The lesbian is generally; almost always - a _****_-romantic. While this varies more among bisexual-specimen. 



sriracha said:


> At what age did you find out that you were bisexual?


I had minor attraction(s) at 5; where I had fixation(s) with other girls - although this would've been classified as "normal," childhood-experimentation [although I apparently had a 'strong gaydar'] as I have been experimenting with 'self-proclaimed' lesbian(s), and shy strongly curious bisexual; or straight female humans since very young (&) found myself aroused. My sexuality was always of question; of fascination or a peculiarity by other women. I suppose due to personality-characteristics. I had a few 'lady-friends' at summer camps; at school, and in general other localities to which I experimented with (&) acquired 'crushes' on. The first specimen I were ever willingly naked with [outside the family or friend]; was a female-humanoid; and we did this repetitively / purposefully due to sexual-curiosity, I reckon. My "best friend," _was a lesbian_ - in spite of her impulsive fucking of males out of self-denial [and other untreated mental-illness], I suppose. I have caught up with her recently many years later; and she is exclusively lesbian.

In the mist, I had my attraction(s) to males - I went into first grade; I had my first irrational "_boy crush_,". And then again in the second grade on another boy - which I recognize as nothing but primitive-sexual attraction or awareness of their sex-distinctions from my own; their personalities were rather repulsive. I seemed to turn a bit_ asexual_ after that until later schooling. I also had 'boy friends' at camp; and one legitimate for which we experimented - when I was 14 or so; I had my experience with "_high school boys,_" and opted-out, immediately (&) seemed to alternate between the (2)-sexes equally. I have always had a keen awareness + strong foundation in my sexuality. 



> Did you accept yourself then or later? If later, what age was that? Did you have any experience of denying to yourself that you're bisexual?


I had a period where I "flat-lined," toward female-humanoid(s) in general; and retracted my bisexual label (&) dated males exclusively.

I would say most of my time was spent; denying I had attractions to randomized women; or "any ol' woman," or (X)-specimens associates, or themselves presented; rather _denial of my sexuality_. The crux of confusion; that "bisexuality," implies sexual attraction to_ anyone with tits_; rather than [_specific_ subjects/individuals that happen to acquire female-anatomy]. 




> How did you reveal yourself to your family and friends (if they know)? How were their responses?


I tested the waters of a_ familial friend_ of mine [and let's say, she were rather "dry" when I pulled my fingers out], after the confession, she became repulsed. In spite of her mother having demonstrably consistent sexual-relationship(s) with males / females - but I should've known better, she _despised_ her mother, indeed. 

As for regular "friends," I have no deep / sentimental ties to my sexuality; nor wear it on a sleeve any more than I wear my 'hetero-half' - my family hasn't any business in my personal affairs.

Regardless, I do not perceive it as "withholding," information anymore than I perceive it '_withholding information_,' when I do not disclose my masturbatory habits. If (X)-family / friends are interested - they are more than welcomed to ask; (&) I have answered accordingly. I do not "_come out_,". Who lays under my sheets isn't any business of the family; nor associates - granted, I consider "_biromanticism_," another matter entirely.

I hid the girls away; about as much as I hid away the boys. My mother (and other family) is a Christian woman; and phobic. My siblings were relatively sexually-open. I reckon they had suspicions as [I have been caught "doing things," on various accounts] to which she never _directly_ spoke of. Co-workers; associates and others have also_ found out_ this way. I haven't a problem with it; such business was not theirs to be entitled.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

pwowq said:


> I respect my bisexuality and myself. I've never seen it as weird, negative and never experienced self-doubt due to societal expectations. "Everyone can love everyone"-approach. Before my early twenties I did really think attraction, love, infatuation was boundless for everyone. I've never had a reason to 'come out' and I've never had a reason to distance myself from my sexuality. Still have no reason to splurt myself out to the world. If I get a question I'll be answering honest thou.
> 
> LGTB-community needs some modesty in the countries that doesn't repress people imo. Less is more, less silly pride. Yeah, Pride in my country isn't needed anymore. The population understands the message.


Yeah I mean, I still have troubles wrapping my head around the idea that people's love and attraction isn't boundless. I've just learnt to accept it even though I don't understand it!

And whilst some countries pride isn't as much of a protest anymore I think it's still important for people to see. Even if you think your country is accepting there are still people who probably come from other cultures or families that disagree and need the encouragement.

It's also pretty fun. I still get uncomfortable around horny naked gays on floats but... I have enjoyed pride.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Catwalk said:


> My "best friend," _was a lesbian_ - in spite of her impulsive fucking of males.


Oh, yeah, the "gay best friend" and crush who is in denial about their sexuality (or perhaps just incredibly confused), I know that one. Whilst he would proclaim loudly that he was into guys he'd find himself in a sexless relationship with a girl and once that was over he'd confess his love to my _girlfriend_ at the time. People are messy.


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## Librarylady (Mar 11, 2017)

Have you ever gotten hateful stereotypes from a gay or straight partner?


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## Majority (Oct 3, 2016)

Falling Foxes said:


> The whole scale just never worked for me. I've always claimed I'm 50/50 if I had to place myself somewhere. I honestly can't say who I'm attracted to more and it just seems like a weird thing to choose. My past shows both genders in equal measurement conveniently I guess.
> 
> I know that men and women are different and I guess because of that I like both genders for different reasons but to me it makes as much sense saying "I prefer blondes", it doesn't stop you from falling for all of those brunettes and 'blonde' doesn't actually tell anything about the person.


It isn't quite the same, though. The differences between men and women are far greater than that between blondes and brunettes. So it isn't a personal preference they are entirely different 'game'. 

I acknowledge attractive men, as soon as my eyes land upon them, and it's the same with women. I still wouldn't imagine having sex with a guy just cause he's good-looking. 

If you don't lean any way, but 50/50, who did you fall the hardest for - was it a he or a she?


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

sriracha said:


> At what age did you find out that you were bisexual? Did you accept yourself then or later? If later, what age was that? Did you have any experience of denying to yourself that you're bisexual?
> 
> How did you reveal yourself to your family and friends (if they know)? How were their responses?


I'm more emotionally into men than women, but I have sexual attraction to both and I knew it since I was in elementary school. I was firstly sexually attracted to women when I was a kid and my attraction to men was more romantic and developed gradually from childhood to puberty. I didn't deny it in particular, more like I didn't realize it until well into adolescence/teens, I thought it was how everyone felt.
My family doesn't know.


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## Tropes (Jul 7, 2016)

Librarylady said:


> Have you ever gotten hateful stereotypes from a gay or straight partner?


Yes but it wasn't "hate" in the bigoted way, more like fears coming out in times of jealousy, including suspicions about bisexuals - like fear that I would cheat on them with the person of their opposite sex, fears that it might be "just a phase", fear of the promiscuous bi stereotype, and frankly I am kind of ok with that, I would rather a partner who is afraid of losing me then one who is ambivalent to it, and I don't think it's fair to expect fear to always express itself in a rational way, and I also acknowledge that just like I am shaped by my experiences, so are they - including negative experiences with other bi men. The way I see it, we are all humans, and this is part of the package deal.



Nabbit said:


> I've heard that bisexuals are attacked sometimes by homosexuals for... I guess having the option to appear straight? Is this true in your experience?


Yes, but I don't find that accusation to be unreasonable, my response is to look within and examine the premise, and the reality is that I could live a perfectly fulfilling life even if society went medieval tomorrow, while they wouldn't be able to really experience their sexuality and a love life at all, and would be stoned if they stumbled. While I dislike the making of bisexuality into a form of identity, under those circumstances - understanding that from their perspective the social acceptance of LGBT is a question of existential danger - I can understand where it comes from, and the fact of the matter is we do not get to experience that danger on quite the same level on the basis of sexual orientation, and as such we are not quite as reliable as "loyal members of the LGBT tribe", because this - the experience of shared existential threats - goes right down the most instinctive level of tribal roots, it is a sentiment I am familiar with from a different arena altogether (As a Jew), so I try my best to understand where it's coming from and not to resent it when it is directed at me.



sriracha said:


> At what age did you find out that you were bisexual? Did you accept yourself then or later? If later, what age was that? Did you have any experience of denying to yourself that you're bisexual?
> 
> How did you reveal yourself to your family and friends (if they know)? How were their responses?


I was 13 when I had a crush on my piano teacher. Nothing came out of it - because he thankfully wasn't a pedophile - but it's the first event to break the ice. I remember there was about a year or so where I didn't have a firm grasp of it, jumping between thinking of myself as straight and thinking of myself as gay, sometimes quite literally depending on my last sexual fantasy. That was followed by a few years where I was actually quite homophobic, not in a hateful way but very avoidant, but I remember occasionally getting high and masturbating to gay and bisexual porn. It wasn't until my first major heartbreak with a woman that I ended up openly exploring my sexuality and coming to terms with bisexuality. During that time I had a guy I was sexually playful with but it wasn't romantic, and a one time thing with a bi curious but otherwise hetro man, it wasn't until my army service that I met my first boyfriend and had a romantic relationship with a guy (Who is no longer a guy, because life insists on being strange), at which point bisexuality kind of became a basic fact of life. Even now - in my bloody 30s when you'd think things would be a little bit more stable - whenever I am in a relationship, I find myself entertaining passing thoughts that "this is it, now I am hetro/gay for life" (depending on the gender of the person). 

As far as my family goes, my sister is a super butch lesbian, which makes them LGBT friendly on one hand, but my mother has confessed to me that she is really hoping I do end up with a woman so that she can have grandkids, and frankly this is to some extent a sentiment I share..



Majority said:


> Do you lean one way or the other?


Yes, but it's not just a strict male or female answer, it's more that I feel differently about men and women as partners.

In recent years I'm coming to terms that I do want a family - with my own children - and that makes for a big difference in who I consider for a serious relationships. 
On the other hand, I feel it is a lot easier for me to build trust with men. Whether this is reasonable or not aside, it _feels_ easier for me to trust a man and it is easier for me to build trust so a man will trust me. And I don't just mean this in terms of fidelity (where this makes the least amount of sense), but rather on a deeper level, I feel it is easier for me to be vulnerable and open with another man in a way that doesn't take away from how they perceive me, while with women I feel like I am always being tested - always up for revaluation and to prove myself, it takes a lot more reassurance for me to feel like I can genuinely be relaxed and have nothing to be anxious of with women - because my anecdotal experience is that taking such reassurance to heart has mislead me in the past.

Sexually, I would say that I find women to be more pleasing to the eye, but men to be more fun in bed. I am willing to be proven wrong on both accounts...


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Majority said:


> It isn't quite the same, though. The differences between men and women are far greater than that between blondes and brunettes. So it isn't a personal preference they are entirely different 'game'.
> 
> I acknowledge attractive men, as soon as my eyes land upon them, and it's the same with women. I still wouldn't imagine having sex with a guy just cause he's good-looking.


Me neither though. Not really. This is where it gets complicated. Mostly I'm attracted to someone sexually after falling for them... This isn't exactly a hard rule.



> If you don't lean any way, but 50/50, who did you fall the hardest for - was it a he or a she?


If you think this will give you an answer, I'll humour you. It was a she. She was also my first love and you know they say that nothing ever really compares to your first love.

The problem with choosing which side I lean on is what does that mean for my current or future relationships? If you decide that my falling for a woman hardest means I'm more into women then does that make me having a male partner mean it's not going to last or it's not where I'll settle?


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## Majority (Oct 3, 2016)

Falling Foxes said:


> Me neither though. Not really. This is where it gets complicated. Mostly I'm attracted to someone sexually after falling for them... This isn't exactly a hard rule.
> 
> If you think this will give you an answer, I'll humour you. It was a she. She was also my first love and you know they say that nothing ever really compares to your first love.
> 
> The problem with choosing which side I lean on is what does that mean for my current or future relationships? If you decide that my falling for a woman hardest means I'm more into women then does that make me having a male partner mean it's not going to last or it's not where I'll settle?


I see your dilemma. I have my understanding of things but you may not wish to hear it. It's not a big deal, it may not mean anything to you, but other people have found it very controversial. So if you care to hear about it I will lay it out flat and you can consider it for what it is.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Majority said:


> I see your dilemma. I have my understanding of things but you may not wish to hear it. It's not a big deal, it may not mean anything to you, but other people have found it very controversial. So if you care to hear about it I will lay it out flat and you can consider it for what it is.


You've definitely piqued my curiosity. Go ahead, lay it down. I'm confident in my own opinions but I would definitely love to hear another side.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Librarylady said:


> Have you ever gotten hateful stereotypes from a gay or straight partner?


Fortunately not. I actually have only had serious relationships with people who told me that they were bisexual before we started going out... it was just easier for me, even with a hetero relationship. However all of those said partners eventually said "No, I'm definitely straight/gay now". I guess them going on that self-discovery made them a little more sympathetic towards me? I don't know. Everyone else I didn't stick around long enough to find out.


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## Tropes (Jul 7, 2016)

Falling Foxes said:


> Fortunately not. I actually have only had serious relationships with people who told me that they were bisexual before we started going out... it was just easier for me, even with a hetero relationship.


Interesting, is there a reason for that? Why do you specifically select for other bisexuals?

I wonder how our experience differs on that, since for me it is the opposite, most of the males I've dated were gay. Not out of any conscious decision I've made, I've dated bisexual women - my ex wife included - it just kind of happened this way with guys.


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## Ttalkkugjil (Feb 1, 2017)

Falling Foxes said:


> I have no idea if a thread like this exists but there have been many times I've wanted to through out questions to bisexuals on these forums but couldn't find them... so here I am, hoping to gather the rest of you people.
> 
> I'll throw pansexual under this bracket too.
> 
> Shoot.


I don't believe in shooting bisexuals. Well, maybe with a camera.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Tropes said:


> Interesting, is there a reason for that? Why do you specifically select for other bisexuals?
> 
> I wonder how our experience differs on that, since for me it is the opposite, most of the males I've dated were gay. Not out of any conscious decision I've made, I've dated bisexual women - my ex wife included - it just kind of happened this way with guys.


It's not really conscious to be honest... coincidental mostly, but I have to say when my current partner told me he was bi I was kind of relieved. Like I knew he'd accept me. And it was a turn on (and potential for threesome... which... wasn't as fun as I thought it'd be, hah, don't invite your ex to a threesome. Just some pro-advice there.)


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Falling Foxes said:


> don't invite your ex to a threesome. Just some pro-advice there.)


Once upon a time I had a FWB who wouldn't openly date me because I didn't have enough earnings potential. 

Anyway, eventually we went our separate ways, but parted as friendly.

Months later she invited me over for a 3 some with her new Beau (a guy). He had big earnings potential.

Her and I fucked the shit out of each other. He had performance issues and mostly watched.


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## Majority (Oct 3, 2016)

Falling Foxes said:


> You've definitely piqued my curiosity. Go ahead, lay it down. I'm confident in my own opinions but I would definitely love to hear another side.


Love between same sex couples don't go very deep. It cannot go deep and for this reason the relationship itself cannot reach the same heights. 

They can be friends and sex partners but it will be just sex without the potential to "make love". They also miss out on the things that flower out of such love. 

If you look for love or the best things that a relationship can offer you'll eventually pick a woman since you cannot fall for a man in the same way. You don't have to. If you don't then anyone is good for sex and companionship.


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## Toru Okada (May 10, 2011)

What is it like to have an erect penis in your mouth? Asking for a friend.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Majority said:


> Love between same sex couples don't go very deep. It cannot go deep and for this reason the relationship itself cannot reach the same heights.
> 
> They can be friends and sex partners but it will be just sex without the potential to "make love". They also miss out on the things that flower out of such love.
> 
> If you look for love or the best things that a relationship can offer you'll eventually pick a woman since you cannot fall for a man in the same way. You don't have to. If you don't then anyone is good for sex and companionship.



Wow. 


Just, Wow.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Majority said:


> Love between same sex couples don't go very deep. It cannot go deep and for this reason the relationship itself cannot reach the same heights.
> 
> They can be friends and sex partners but it will be just sex without the potential to "make love". They also miss out on the things that flower out of such love.
> 
> If you look for love or the best things that a relationship can offer you'll eventually pick a woman since you cannot fall for a man in the same way. You don't have to. If you don't then anyone is good for sex and companionship.


"I cannot feel love for people of my sex so no one can."


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Majority said:


> Love between same sex couples don't go very deep. It cannot go deep and for this reason the relationship itself cannot reach the same heights.
> 
> They can be friends and sex partners but it will be just sex without the potential to "make love". They also miss out on the things that flower out of such love.
> 
> If you look for love or the best things that a relationship can offer you'll eventually pick a woman since you cannot fall for a man in the same way. You don't have to. If you don't then anyone is good for sex and companionship.


Interesting, I guess. As someone who has experienced love with both sexes, I can't agree with this though.

The biggest differences I think there are between men and women is social conditioning. We're all taught to act a certain way based on our gender, that affects the relationship dynamics between the two but other than personalities (and obviously sex) there's no significant difference when I fall for them.

One thing I can say about same sex relationships is that it's easier to relate, there's no language lost in translation, which makes things easier.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Toru Okada said:


> What is it like to have an erect penis in your mouth? Asking for a friend.


Much better than a flaccid one.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Red Panda said:


> "I cannot feel love for people of my sex so no one can."


"I am the only one in the world, therefore I am the only one who thinks, therefore mine is the only way."


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## Librarylady (Mar 11, 2017)

Majority said:


> Love between same sex couples don't go very deep. It cannot go deep and for this reason the relationship itself cannot reach the same heights.
> 
> They can be friends and sex partners but it will be just sex without the potential to "make love". They also miss out on the things that flower out of such love.
> 
> If you look for love or the best things that a relationship can offer you'll eventually pick a woman since you cannot fall for a man in the same way. You don't have to. If you don't then anyone is good for sex and companionship.


lol, wtf???

You could argue the same for the opposite sex (if you are gay or asexual). Most gay people I know have "been" with the opposite sex, but it is usually only shallow sex and nothing more for them.


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## Fredward (Sep 21, 2013)

Majority said:


> Love between same sex couples don't go very deep. It cannot go deep and for this reason the relationship itself cannot reach the same heights.
> 
> They can be friends and sex partners but it will be just sex without the potential to "make love". They also miss out on the things that flower out of such love.
> 
> If you look for love or the best things that a relationship can offer you'll eventually pick a woman since you cannot fall for a man in the same way. You don't have to. If you don't then anyone is good for sex and companionship.


This is a common misconception but it's the exact opposite, actually! For breeders, love is a side effect. Because of evolution their primary impetus is, well, breeding! Their feelings of 'love' is only ever there, consciously or subconsciously, to help them achieve that goal. For same-sex couples though love is not a means to an end, it simply _is _the end. For that reason the love we experience is pure and unadulterated. This is only sensible after all, considering a feeling or action is always more genuine and authentic when it's undertaken sans any extraneous considerations. 

Me and my non-breeder friends have started a nonprofit where we stand in front of a large blank canvass and throw each other with cans of vibrant paint (meaning the paint _in _the cans, not the actual paint cans. We only do that when we're demonstrating the pain of actual heartbreak) before we rub our bodies against each other in an attempt to communicate, through art, what actual love feels like to those who can, through no fault of their own, never experience it. We've had many breeders coming up to us, tears streaming down their faces to tell us they never knew love could be so beautiful. 

We're currently planning a world tour, feel free to donate here. You can donate whatever you wish but with gentle sincerity we suggest a donation of $50 and up.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

@Fredward

I was going to respond until I saw that link. Good one.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Falling Foxes said:


> @Fredward
> 
> I was going to respond until I saw that link. Good one.


I second that.
:tongue:


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

For others: do you find your personality changes/adjusts depending on the gender of your partner?


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## EccentricSiren (Sep 3, 2013)

sriracha said:


> At what age did you find out that you were bisexual? Did you accept yourself then or later? If later, what age was that? Did you have any experience of denying to yourself that you're bisexual?
> 
> How did you reveal yourself to your family and friends (if they know)? How were their responses?


I was a bit late in figuring it out. I was 21 when I realized I was sexually attracted to women as well as men. I just sort of accepted it and thought it was kind of cool. I didn't feel comfortable telling other people, though. I was afraid that I'd be perceived as doing it for attention. I also thought since that it had seemingly appeared so suddenly, it could also go away just as quickly and I didn't want to someday have to say, "Just kidding, I'm actually straight." I've come to the conclusion, 13 years later, that I really am bi, and I'm out to my close friends and I mention it to new acquaintances if it comes up in conversation. I haven't told my family yet, since they've said things like, "I'm so glad none of you kids were gay," and "We'll be happy for you if you find a romantic partner...as long as it's a man." My mom saw that'd I'd used the pride flag "like" button on facebook and asked me if I was "part of the LGBT community or just sympathetic towards them." I panicked and said that I was sympathetic but wasn't an LGBT person myself. Not sure how to go back and say, "by the way, I actually am bisexual, and I kind of want my next romantic partner to be a woman." I might tell my brother, though. I think he'd at least be understanding.


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## Tropes (Jul 7, 2016)

I am actually going to ask a question for.. Well, the other bisexuals: Do you experience issues with maintaining buddies, or past buddies taking their distance when finding out? You know, friends of the non sexual kind, guys to drink beer / game / play sports / whatever with?

To bisexual women, the same question, do you experience being treated differently by female friends of the non sexual kind, or other women not being as comfortable around you as they might be around a hetrosexual friend?


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Tropes said:


> I am actually going to ask a question for.. Well, the other bisexuals: Do you experience issues with maintaining buddies, or past buddies taking their distance when finding out? You know, friends of the non sexual kind, guys to drink beer / game / play sports / whatever with?
> 
> To bisexual women, the same question, do you experience being treated differently by female friends of the non sexual kind, or other women not being as comfortable around you as they might be around a hetrosexual friend?


Yeah, I've pushed people away I think after telling them that I'm bi but I've fortunately never lost anyone who I really care about. I also tend to tell people early on, before I care if I lose them or not. But not too early that I haven't gotten a sense that they are homophobic...

The amount of times I've gotten the wide eyed, pale faced shock when I tell them followed by a forced smile and an immediate annecdote about how they are an ally or how they thought about being gay once but then the idea of anal made them wanna throw up, so don't worry they are 100% straight in case I thought otherwise (strangely enough I never questioned it). I made the mistake of telling my least homophobic work-colleague and he went on a literal 15 minute speech about how "You be you. Live and let live."... preaching to the choir? Anyway, it's not like any of those guys cut me out or anything but I'd say neither of us tried to keep the friendship going. Not being uncomfortable is kind of a requirement of mine when it comes to friends.

I've always been in a relationship when I tell people and I make that pretty clear. I think that makes it easier for people to think "guess I don't have to worry.". I'm sure they'd freak out more if I were single. I'm actually not sure if I'd have as many guy friends as I do now if I wasn't in a relationship.

Once I had a straight guy friend actually get closer to me after I told him... as if with me opening up to him meant there was a new level of trust but then he's a rare sensitive guy who isn't trying to prove his masculinity.


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## ShatteredHeart (Jul 11, 2014)

What is the secret to making good meatballs? Mine always taste bland.


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## pwowq (Aug 7, 2016)

ShatteredHeart said:


> What is the secret to making good meatballs? Mine always taste bland.


Salt. (fact).. and garlic (imo).

If you're doing spicy meatballs the secret is to fry the spices in a lot of butter, when it's getting foamy it's time to fry the balls. When the surface is neat put the balls in the oven til they're done.


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## vivacious (Aug 5, 2017)

Majority said:


> Do you lean one way or the other?


Yes, heavily toward females, although I would have said the opposite about 4-5 years ago when I was still coming to terms with my sexuality. I think realistically, I was kidding myself about that because my strongest attractions have always been to women... which is obvious with how much more anxiety and focus I had around women. I went through the whole, "maybe I just like her as a friend" thing when I was in my middle and early high school years, but nope.



sriracha said:


> At what age did you find out that you were bisexual? Did you accept yourself then or later? If later, what age was that? Did you have any experience of denying to yourself that you're bisexual?


The first time I admitted it to both myself and someone else, I was 15, but several friends had called me bisexual or outright gay when I was 13, even though I was most outspoken about my attraction to guys. Guess I didn't realize how obvious it was that I had a huge lady boner and angsty obsession with my best friend of the time, LOL. I came to embrace it much more at 16, but have become more and more comfortable since then, at 20 now. 

As for denying to myself that I was bisexual, see above about how I thought I just had friend crushes on all these girls when I was younger. Also, I know at 15 I told a friend that I was probably bisexual but I wasn't going to really go for women because it was too difficult/complicated for me. I thought then it was because I couldn't handle emotional attraction to women, in the sense that it was difficult to fathom and I probably wasn't as attracted to women, but realistically speaking it was because I was *more* attracted to them and just didn't know what to do with myself.



> How did you reveal yourself to your family and friends (if they know)? How were their responses?


Uh, lol. I never planned on disclosing to my family. I didn't really care what they thought. But, basically, when I was 18 I told my mom on the phone that I was bisexual once, only because I told her that I was going to apply for as many scholarships as possible and that I had more opportunities because I had X and Y identities. My mom immediately questioned if I was sure and kind of did the "maybe you're just young and exploring your identity" thing. And the second time we talked about it, she assumed I would like men more because why wouldn't I, which made me mad. Since then she's come to accept it and only cares for my happiness. There wasn't a big fuss - just those 2 conversations before things became much better for me. 

Never told my dad formally but he knew because he overheard conversations with my mother and I think he just finds it amusing because he's a pervert and has probably watched a lot of lesbian porn. My brother found out after he wouldn't stop making homophobic and transphobic remarks, so I told that loser off and he's stopped really mentioning anything.



Librarylady said:


> Have you ever gotten hateful stereotypes from a gay or straight partner?


Yes, and I've gotten hateful stereotypes from a bi partner too, which was terrible, though not really biphobia but gender roles. I think there are a lot of assumptions made about bisexual people because they mix together straight, bi, and gay stereotypes... kind of awful. Even though I now identify my _attraction_ as mostly gay, I definitely can't say that I feel that way in terms of my personal identity, because I've been at the brunt of biphobia, because I still understand bisexual attraction, and am still technically bisexual because I can find men attractive, if only rarely at this point. It also took me a lot longer to realize that I was something other than straight, so I can't really feel lesbian culture 100% because many of them have identified as such for so much longer. To the point where maybe, to some extent, they've become overly comfortable and stopped considering other perspectives (which contributes to biphobia).

My last girlfriend definitely held herself and me to weird gender role standards, even though neither of us are really gender-conforming, and I guess that's something I can dislike about relationships in general, with straight, gay, or bi people... I'm not non-binary and probably more femme-leaning most of the time, but it's just so unnecessary. She also wanted to categorize me so much, and did not like my uncertainty in not settling for saying that I was either bisexual or lesbian. 



Falling Foxes said:


> For others: do you find your personality changes/adjusts depending on the gender of your partner?


Yeah, it does a bit. Although there is a lot of variation overall, I find that I am actually a lot more outgoing, suggestive, and confident around males I find attractive and much more shy, awkward, and sweet around females I find attractive. Still the same person of course, but people are surprised by it. 




Tropes said:


> To bisexual women, the same question, do you experience being treated differently by female friends of the non sexual kind, or other women not being as comfortable around you as they might be around a hetrosexual friend?


Surprisingly, no!! I think partially because I'm so, so open about it, albeit in an awkward and cute way as mentioned above. At least with the friends I've had, they find me and any flirtatious attempt less threatening than unwanted advances from men. Actually, in my experience, it hasn't stopped them from flirting back and joking around with me LOL.


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## Kurt Wagner (Aug 2, 2014)

Nabbit said:


> I've heard that bisexuals are attacked sometimes by homosexuals for... I guess having the option to appear straight? Is this true in your experience?


No, but I've heard the same.



Majority said:


> Do you lean one way or the other?


I have leaned towards both at different times.



sriracha said:


> At what age did you find out that you were bisexual?


Around 15. 



> Did you accept yourself then or later? If later, what age was that?


I accepted myself not long after, but I knew I wasn't straight for a long time.



> Did you have any experience of denying to yourself that you're bisexual?


It took me some time to actually consider bisexual as a possibility. It seemed as a relief back then. I was very confused.



> How did you reveal yourself to your family and friends (if they know)? How were their responses?


they do not



Librarylady said:


> Have you ever gotten hateful stereotypes from a gay or straight partner?


nope



Toru Okada said:


> What is it like to have an erect penis in your mouth? Asking for a friend.


Get me your friend's number.



Falling Foxes said:


> For others: do you find your personality changes/adjusts depending on the gender of your partner?


Yes actually. I can't explain.


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## Dustanddawnzone (Jul 13, 2014)

What do you guys think of the following thread?:
https://www.reddit.com/r/trollbi/comments/68zzsr/the_true_bipanacepoly_agenda/


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## Kurt Wagner (Aug 2, 2014)

Dustanddawnzone said:


> What do you guys think of the following thread?:
> https://www.reddit.com/r/trollbi/comments/68zzsr/the_true_bipanacepoly_agenda/


Where. Are. My. Dragons.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Dustanddawnzone said:


> What do you guys think of the following thread?:
> https://www.reddit.com/r/trollbi/comments/68zzsr/the_true_bipanacepoly_agenda/


What? LIES! OBVIOUSLY! Couldn't have you knowing the truth about dragons being real... I mean... we obviously aren't... real... THEY obviously aren't real?

Shit.

Please, don't talk about our true agenda on earth.


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## odinthor (Mar 22, 2017)

Falling Foxes said:


> For others: do you find your personality changes/adjusts depending on the gender of your partner?


Relationships are like ballroom dancing: People step on your toes and your shoes get scuffed. _Wait a minute_, that's not what I was going to say. I was going to say, "The way you dance is in correlation to how the other person dances--his/her skills, his/her manner, his/her whatever. You're not a successful dance partner if you're just you equally with everyone and obliviate the qualities of the other person." So the answer is, yeah, I'm different with different people, whether gender is being considered or not. . . . [_ponders_] . . . I suppose some people would call that a sort of self-obliteration. I call it "consideration."


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## Denature (Nov 6, 2015)

Are you born gay or is it something you find out AKA choose to be later in life?


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## vivacious (Aug 5, 2017)

Poizon said:


> Are you born gay or is it something you find out AKA choose to be later in life?


Simply because you find something out doesn't make it a choice. 

There are things that we *are*, but don't quite realize until we have the opportunity to discover it. Like, you may realize you're good at a certain sport, but you don't know that until you try it. NOT saying at all that this is a direct comparison to figuring out you're gay later in life - just trying to demonstrate how your premise doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion you state.

I took a yearlong interdisciplinary class on gender, sex, and sexuality, and the interplay between them. So far, no gay gene has been discovered, and like many things, it looks like sexuality is probably a combination of genetics and environment, rather than purely genetic. That's not to say that environment is a "choice," because we often don't really choose our environment. I say environment just as a counter to what is literally written in your DNA and genetic code.

To add on to that, I'm going to say that it's generally more common for gay men to realize their sexuality earlier in life, whereas women may not realize they're bisexual or gay until their 30s or 40s. Generally, the consensus in studies of sexual orientation and attraction is that women are more sexually fluid than men.

That being said, one of the most accurate precursors to homosexuality is childhood gender non-conformity (CGN). Even if we may not know we're gay/bi/etc, this is usually true for us. That's not to say that every gender non-conforming kid is gonna turn out to be gay, only that if we work backwards from non-straight people that this is extremely common. Other things have been studied too, of course, including finger length ratio (surprisingly accurate, but of course sounds like bullshit), but that has the highest correlation.


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## Librarylady (Mar 11, 2017)

Poizon said:


> Are you born gay or is it something you find out AKA choose to be later in life?


I'm not bisexual (just gay) but this is a question I can finally answer.

For me, It's been there my whole life, so I guess I was "born that way"- possibly due to the hormones I got as a baby. I'm not saying babies or children are sexual or feel sexual attraction, though. When I was seven, I had "crushes" on female singers and wanted to kiss them, but I didn't know it was sexual. I didn't think about genital stuff, but had typical school crushes. It became more sexual when I was 14, but I don't remember a time in my life where I ever liked guys legitimately, except for the time where I pretended to to fit in (and even then, the only guys I ever "liked" were super bishie anime boys that looked like women).


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## vivacious (Aug 5, 2017)

Librarylady said:


> I'm not bisexual (just gay) but this is a question I can finally answer.
> 
> For me, It's been there my whole life, so I guess I was "born that way"- possibly due to the hormones I got as a baby. I'm not saying babies or children are sexual or feel sexual attraction, though. When I was seven, I had "crushes" on female singers and wanted to kiss them, but I didn't know it was sexual. I didn't think about genital stuff, but had typical school crushes. It became more sexual when I was 14, but I don't remember a time in my life where I ever liked guys legitimately, except for the time where I pretended to to fit in (and even then, the only guys I ever "liked" were super bishie anime boys that looked like women).


Yeah, I understand what you mean about it not really being sexual when young. In the studies and books I read, one author (Simon LeVay) made the distinction by calling kids "pre-gay" because defining things in terms of sexual attraction for people who are pre-pubescent just isn't appropriate. Not to say that they weren't gay, in terms of being interested in the same sex, just that defining it sexually (as it generally is) isn't the best fit.


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## Librarylady (Mar 11, 2017)

vivacious said:


> Yeah, I understand what you mean about it not really being sexual when young. In the studies and books I read, one author (Simon LeVay) made the distinction by calling kids "pre-gay" because defining things in terms of sexual attraction for people who are pre-pubescent just isn't appropriate. Not to say that they weren't gay, in terms of being interested in the same sex, just that defining it sexually (as it generally is) isn't the best fit.


I agree that we shouldn't sexualize kids, but I also don't see anything wrong with admitting some kids can be same-sex attracted, just as long as you keep sexual parts out of it. A lot of people link the two, so it can be seen as confusing.

Even then though, my "sexual orientation" isn't even that sexual as an adult. I am highly romantically attracted to other women, but I have very little sexual interest in them. I relate more to gray-asexuality than to actual homosexuality, but identity only with the latter since I don't believe that homosexuality has to equal being a horndog 24/7. So even as an adult I do not relate to sexualized labels and don't care much for them.


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## vivacious (Aug 5, 2017)

Librarylady said:


> I agree that we shouldn't sexualize kids, but I also don't see anything wrong with admitting some kids can be same-sex attracted, just as long as you keep sexual parts out of it. A lot of people link the two, so it can be seen as confusing.


Right, and I agree with you on all of that. That's actually what I think too - that kids can be attracted to the same sex without it being sexual, which I think was the intent of the term "pregay," even though that's a little misleading. 



> Even then though, my "sexual orientation" isn't even that sexual as an adult. I am highly romantically attracted to other women, but I have very little sexual interest in them. I relate more to gray-asexuality than to actual homosexuality, but identity only with the latter since I don't believe that homosexuality has to equal being a horndog 24/7. So even as an adult I do not relate to sexualized labels and don't care much for them.


Ah, that makes sense. As a demisexual, I can sympathize with this and also place a lot more emphasis on romantic attraction. I think part of the difficulty with connecting with other gay/bi women is that, comparatively, many of them are much more focused on the sexual attraction than the romantic.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

vivacious said:


> I think part of the difficulty with connecting with other gay/bi women is that, comparatively, many of them are much more focused on the sexual attraction than the romantic.


I think that's a problem with most of the gay community too.


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## Librarylady (Mar 11, 2017)

Speaking of the above....

The women are "more sexually fluid" thing is kind of a weird one, since the more I research it, the more that seems to be due to environmental factors and social sexism rather than an outright biological cause. 

Though, we may not ever learn the cause of homosexuality either. It may even be purely environmental, but we'd have to accept it exists regardless.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Librarylady said:


> Speaking of the above....
> 
> The women are "more sexually fluid" thing is kind of a weird one, since the more I research it, the more that seems to be due to environmental factors and social sexism rather than an outright biological cause.
> 
> Though, we may not ever learn the cause of homosexuality either. It may even be purely environmental, but we'd have to accept it exists regardless.


This is hard to explain. I do think it's environmental though... I think most of us are raised at least believing that bisexual or bi-curious women exist but do we ever really have a conversation about bisexual men?

As soon as a man starts seeming effeminate he's 'gay' by default. Obviously that's a problem in its own way. 

I wonder though... if this is part of that 'bi-privilege'. We can't control who we fall in love with... but we can supress it, ignore it, wait for the next one to come along. So in a way, there might be some bisexual men out there who pick a gender just because it's easier to understand what that means. It's easier to discover who you are... because people talk about what it means to be straight or what it means to be gay that with only those two conversations it's kind of like the binary is all we know?

I'm struggling to articulate this but essentially, I think we are born our sexuality but it's our environment that affects what we call it or how we recognise it. There are plenty of non-bisexuals who have had plesant sexual and romantic experiences with both sexes but they still stick to the binary of gay/straight.


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## Tropes (Jul 7, 2016)

Poizon said:


> Are you born gay or is it something you find out AKA choose to be later in life?


In the case of bisexuality (Unlike homosexuality) I actually would say it's both, you do need the natural ability to be attracted to both genders, but I can easily imagine bisexuals choosing not to act on it with one of the genders, so the choice to act on it is a choice. I've known a bisexual girl who wouldn't act on it because of religious convictions, the decision still amazes me but clearly it's something that happens.


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## pwowq (Aug 7, 2016)

Librarylady said:


> Though, we may not ever learn the cause of homosexuality either. It may even be purely environmental, but we'd have to accept it exists regardless.


We may even know the cause. Homosexuality is prevalent everywhere (always been). Sexuality isn't free will, I guess it's miscommunication among the cells during pregnancy. Hence homosexuality cannot be eradicated by sexual selection. A portion of all fetuses becomes a homosexual being by chance alone.

Add to that, some (especially humans) will do a choice somewhere due to social, environmental, upbringing, opportunity or whatever.


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## Librarylady (Mar 11, 2017)

Falling Foxes said:


> This is hard to explain. I do think it's environmental though... I think most of us are raised at least believing that bisexual or bi-curious women exist but do we ever really have a conversation about bisexual men?
> 
> As soon as a man starts seeming effeminate he's 'gay' by default. Obviously that's a problem in its own way.
> 
> ...


With bisexual men, I personally believe the issue is that we view them in the same way that biracial people got the "one drop rule" in the past. A man can sleep with 100 women and enjoy it, but if he gets with one man, it's automatically viewed as "gay". His experiences with the opposite sex seem to be ignored once a penis is introduced. Likewise, I actually know a lot of gay men who fit the sexually fluid label, as in they enjoy being with women, but they can still identify as gay and no one bats an eye.

Some bisexual men also prefer the opposite sex, but since society thinks their sexuality means "gay in denial", they may identify as straight to not scare straight women away. Which is unfortunate. So many bi men do pick one over the other.

I also believe that women have the reverse problem, as in more rigid/binary women are ignored by society or forced into "sexually fluid" labels to confirm the bias. I have seen gay men come out after a straight marriage and be told they were gay all along but didn't know it, but if a lesbian has the same experience, people force the "bi/fluid" label on her purely because she's been with a man. I've also had the fluid label forced on me even though I have shown no signs of opposite sex attraction or experience, simply because society doesn't want to believe I exist. So it's possible that lesbians only identify as bisexual more often not because they actually like men, but because of social pressure to be sexually fluid. Bisexuality in men and homosexuality in women seem to both be considered "impossible" to society, so that could always affect labels in the long run.

Basically, I pretty much agree.


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## Tropes (Jul 7, 2016)

Librarylady said:


> Though, we may not ever learn the cause of homosexuality either. It may even be purely environmental, but we'd have to accept it exists regardless.


True, but a more interesting scenario happens if we do find a cause - and it's one we can control. Let's say we find a near certain way to determine it genetically, what happens in the embryo screening room? What happens if we can modify those genes? What would be the social consequences?


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

Red Panda said:


> I'm more emotionally into men than women, but I have sexual attraction to both and I knew it since I was in elementary school. I was firstly sexually attracted to women when I was a kid and my attraction to men was more romantic and developed gradually from childhood to puberty. I didn't deny it in particular, more like I didn't realize it until well into adolescence/teens, I thought it was how everyone felt.
> My family doesn't know.


This is kinda my question - is it common for your attraction to be qualitatively different for each gender (e.g. more sexual towards women and more romantic towards men), or is that a stereotype? It seems to be something I hear of a lot (and mostly from women and in the same way you describe). But not sure if it's as prevalent as it seems.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

ninjahitsawall said:


> This is kinda my question - is it common for your attraction to be qualitatively different for each gender (e.g. more sexual towards women and more romantic towards men), or is that a stereotype? It seems to be something I hear of a lot (and mostly from women and in the same way you describe). But not sure if it's as prevalent as it seems.


I've no idea how common it is tbh. I feel like every bisexual has to struggle with their sexuality in ways no hetero or **** does, because it's likely more fluid or just not entirely set in stone, or something. For example, I may have had more sexual feelings for women as a kid but this has changed over the years and doesn't feel like it's as prominent for me as it was, yet sometimes I feel I really crave for a female sexual partner, and other times I am indifferent... Struggles I've had with my character also affect that, as many years I was repressing my sexual desire for men for reasons not relating to sexual orientation, and also I don't have any experience with women and I'm generally very introverted and not keen on putting myself out there just to get experience (plus I am in a LTR with a man). So all these factors affect sexuality probably in others not just myself because how many times have we heard people "become gay" later in life? I think these instances are bisexual people trying to discover themselves rather than straight people turning gay or vice versa. What baffles me is when people get angry at others for "changing orientation", showing they don't really understand or even want to.


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

Red Panda said:


> So all these factors affect sexuality probably in others not just myself because how many times have we heard people "become gay" later in life? I think these instances are bisexual people trying to discover themselves rather than straight people turning gay or vice versa. What baffles me is when people get angry at others for "changing orientation", showing they don't really understand or even want to.


I thought people get defensive at the idea of "changing orientation" because they take that phrase ("becoming gay" or whatever) at face value, and it seems to imply they chose their orientation?


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

ninjahitsawall said:


> I thought people get defensive at the idea of "changing orientation" because they take that phrase ("becoming gay" or whatever) at face value, and it seems to imply they chose their orientation?


you mean straight/gay people or bi?
in my experience, people don't think that someone is bisexual unless it's pointed out to them. They are more likely to think that someone is straight and then turns gay than the more realistic one that they were never straight to begin with, but bi. I think they are more quick to think negatively, that the other person wanted to deceive others, than show empathy and try to understand. 
And I think that happens, in part, because most people, who are straight, never had to experiment or question their sexuality so it's hard for them to imagine why someone might be confused about who they like or even worse, that it can change over time.


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

Red Panda said:


> you mean straight/gay people or bi?


Mostly gay. And/or trans people trying to maintain a distinction between gender and orientation, so they emphasize it with themselves (or someone else) that their orientation didn't change, it just became more clear. The idea of orientation being changeable kinda contradicts the whole concept of it not being a choice, and I've seen people get defensive over that. 

I think what you're describing is something else entirely.



> in my experience, people don't think that someone is bisexual unless it's pointed out to them. They are more likely to think that someone is straight and then turns gay than the more realistic one that they were never straight to begin with, but bi. I think they are more quick to think negatively, that the other person wanted to deceive others, than show empathy and try to understand.
> And I think that happens, in part, because most people, who are straight, never had to experiment or question their sexuality so it's hard for them to imagine why someone might be confused about who they like or even worse, that it can change over time.


 If they think someone legitimately went from straight to gay, why would they think it's a deception? Unless they're just angry because they're homophobic, were close to this person, and feel betrayed somehow by having a non-straight friend, that type of reaction doesn't even make sense.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

ninjahitsawall said:


> Mostly gay. And/or trans people trying to maintain a distinction between gender and orientation, so they emphasize it with themselves (or someone else) that their orientation didn't change, it just became more clear. The idea of orientation being changeable kinda contradicts the whole concept of it not being a choice, and I've seen people get defensive over that.
> 
> I think what you're describing is something else entirely.


I'm not sure to what you are referring to, either.




> If they think someone legitimately went from straight to gay, why would they think it's a deception? Unless they're just angry because they're homophobic, were close to this person, and feel betrayed somehow by having a non-straight friend, that type of reaction doesn't even make sense.


I think it mostly comes from ignorance, they think they just changed their minds or something. I'm not talking about taking it personal, more like "that person lied", like it's something to be wary of.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

What are your opinions on the terms 'pansexual' and 'bisexual'?

I often call myself bi because I don't feel like that comes with a massive explanation as to what I am... but by the definition of pansexual, I'm actually pan. I started off with a massive aversion to 'pansexual' because when I first heard the term it started sounding like an explanation for falling in love with trans people (as if trans doesn't fall in the binary) and also raises the question "can only pansexuals fall in love with non-binary?" which turned me off of the term.


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## Librarylady (Mar 11, 2017)

Falling Foxes said:


> What are your opinions on the terms 'pansexual' and 'bisexual'?
> 
> I often call myself bi because I don't feel like that comes with a massive explanation as to what I am... but by the definition of pansexual, I'm actually pan. I started off with a massive aversion to 'pansexual' because when I first heard the term it started sounding like an explanation for falling in love with trans people (as if trans doesn't fall in the binary) and also raises the question "can only pansexuals fall in love with non-binary?" which turned me off of the term.


Even though I'm not bi/pan, I find the standards strange. I have heard pansexuals talking about how bisexuality is supposed to exclude binary trans people....but even straight and gay people can be interested in trans people, so that makes no sense?

I have also heard bisexuals saying they dislike the term pansexual all together, because they consider themselves including everyone. It's mostly an argument over the semantics of two vs all.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Librarylady said:


> Even though I'm not bi/pan, I find the standards strange. I have heard pansexuals talking about how bisexuality is supposed to exclude binary trans people....but even straight and gay people can be interested in trans people, so that makes no sense?
> 
> I have also heard bisexuals saying they dislike the term pansexual all together, because they consider themselves including everyone. It's mostly an argument over the semantics of two vs all.


Yeah, that's my point. Imagine finding your label only to be told that your label is wrong and that you are actually this new term that you didn't know? Feels kind of invasive, like someone's just who you are for you. Hard not to get defensive about it at first.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Falling Foxes said:


> What are your opinions on the terms 'pansexual' and 'bisexual'?
> 
> I often call myself bi because I don't feel like that comes with a massive explanation as to what I am... but by the definition of pansexual, I'm actually pan. I started off with a massive aversion to 'pansexual' because when I first heard the term it started sounding like an explanation for falling in love with trans people (as if trans doesn't fall in the binary) and also raises the question "can only pansexuals fall in love with non-binary?" which turned me off of the term.


Dunno, pansexual seems like an overkill to me. I think bisexual is enough, it's just that people think bisexuality means equal attraction when in truth it's a spectrum. I don't think pansexuality exists, in the sense that it's not a different sexuality, like being straight or gay, it's just bisexuality with an indicator that you don't care if traditional gender expression is not in line with the sex of the person you are attracted to. I think that's essentially what it is and why it's not necessary to put it under a different label. I am against labels in general, I find how young people nowadays get obsessed with them to be very counter-productive and even neurotic of sorts. Some labels are necessary, but there's a point where it's too much.


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## Librarylady (Mar 11, 2017)

Falling Foxes said:


> Yeah, that's my point. Imagine finding your label only to be told that your label is wrong and that you are actually this new term that you didn't know? Feels kind of invasive, like someone's just who you are for you. Hard not to get defensive about it at first.


I also feel that way about the word "demisexual". I fit the definition to a complete T, but I don't identify with it and hate it being forced on me. I have always just called myself a lesbian. But now with the obsession with labels It's all "You can't be a real lesbian because you're not obsessed with drooling over strangers and sleeping with random girls. Or your sex drive is too low to be a lesbian."

I don't get this problem with most straight people. I can say I'm gay but I'm not that sexual, and they're all "ok, cool", but the LGBT community keeps trying to over categorize.


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## jaderose23 (Feb 11, 2017)

aren't bisexuals attracted to sex not gender usually? Like the definition of being bi has to do with people attracted to people of both sexes rather than gender? Which I find unlike how heterosexuality and homosexuality are based off of especially heterosexuality.

Also I had another question. Oh yeah that's what it was when did you become bisexual? I mean like when someone is homosexual you're kind of starting out in thought as bisexual due to social influence to some extent.

And also lastly how does it work? Like to be attracted to men and women they're like opposites. Is the attraction the same for both or something altogether different?


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

jaderose23 said:


> aren't bisexuals attracted to sex not gender usually? Like the definition of being bi has to do with people attracted to people of both sexes rather than gender? Which I find unlike how heterosexuality and homosexuality are based off of especially heterosexuality.


Complicated I guess... I'm attracted to either... since it doesn't matter what sex or gender someone is... actually maybe I'm a little more attracted to certain _genders_ now I think about it. I don't care what you have in your pants (although obviously that changes what sex will be like considerably... ) I guess I say genders because I kind of have a thing for the androgynous... I'm not attracted to genitalia basically... at least that's not a deciding factor most of the time. Of course I get turned on by naked people (and different body parts depending on the sex) I just don't have a preference. Sorry, not sure that answer was coherent, it's hard for me to put my finger on what it is, it's almost as much of an enigma to explain myself.



> Also I had another question. Oh yeah that's what it was when did you become bisexual? I mean like when someone is homosexual you're kind of starting out in thought as bisexual due to social influence to some extent.


I said I was straight due to social influence for the longest time, not the other way around. Like I knew I liked women and that was all that mattered. I even had people ask me if I was gay before I came out, but pretty self-assured I told them 'no'. I had crushes and sexual dreams about guys before I officially came out as 'bi' but... yeah, I came out when I realised I was in love with my best friend. Felt more like denial until then rather than social conditioning.



> And also lastly how does it work? Like to be attracted to men and women they're like opposites. Is the attraction the same for both or something altogether different?


It's different, yeah. It's a concept that's hard to grasp because whilst there's an equal attraction to both there's obviously very different things that attract me to both... women's and men's personalities are normally different which immediately changes the dynamic of the relationship... men and women are attractive in different ways, I feel like women's beauty is obvious, women are objectified more and do put more effort in their appearance than (straight) men ;P Maybe with men it's more sexual, more like having sex with your best friend. Women... well... how you would imagine a heterosexual relationship being? That's no different just because I'm bi. 

Ultimately I fall for the person first, recognise the physical attraction second...

In a way it kind of becomes a question of what kind of dynamic do I want more? Being with a woman does make me act in a different way. I'll be more protective, more romantic... and some more masculine traits I guess. I'm more laid back with men. *shrugs*


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## jaderose23 (Feb 11, 2017)

Falling Foxes said:


> Complicated I guess... I'm attracted to either... since it doesn't matter what sex or gender someone is... actually maybe I'm a little more attracted to certain _genders_ now I think about it. I don't care what you have in your pants (although obviously that changes what sex will be like considerably... ) I guess I say genders because I kind of have a thing for the androgynous... I'm not attracted to genitalia basically... at least that's not a deciding factor most of the time. Of course I get turned on by naked people (and different body parts depending on the sex) I just don't have a preference. Sorry, not sure that answer was coherent, it's hard for me to put my finger on what it is, it's almost as much of an enigma to explain myself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I thought bisexuality was determined as being attracted to both sexes as like a prerequisite. I didn't know that. I like only am attracted to one sex but I don't really have a preference towards gender. I've even dated a transwoman once. I'm generally still considered gay since I have no interest in biological women. But if someone is agender or bigender or genderqueer or some random guy that really doesn't seem to matter for me. I just always thought bisexuality was determined by a guy or girl being into both cismen and cis women which I'm not. Apparently not you learn something new everyday I guess.


No that was not what I was talking about. I meant like when you knew you were bisexual not when you came out. Like I came out when I was like 19 well for the first time. Now that's not when I knew though I knew like at around 13. But I kind of thought everyone starts out bi like at first. I started out as bi in a curiosity sense but that changed like within a year or less. I was just curious for bisexuals when one would know they're going to stay bisexual?


it seems like it would be.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

jaderose23 said:


> I thought bisexuality was determined as being attracted to both sexes as like a prerequisite. I didn't know that. I like only am attracted to one sex but I don't really have a preference towards gender. I've even dated a transwoman once. I'm generally still considered gay since I have no interest in biological women. But if someone is agender or bigender or genderqueer or some random guy that really doesn't seem to matter for me. I just always thought bisexuality was determined by a guy or girl being into both cismen and cis women which I'm not. Apparently not you learn something new everyday I guess.


I am into both cis men and women. Turned on by both. I guess I'm being confusing in my answers because to be honest I don't really know what attracts me to them or what I'm attracted to first or more even? I just know I'm bisexual and that's enough. I know that I've never been turned off by anyone because of their sex or gender and I can watch any sexuality porn and get the same effect...

But you know, labels are what you make them, not everyone fits neatly into them so, whatever people feel most comfortable with. Bisexuality probably covers a lot of people who just don't feel comfortable saying "only women" or "only men" for whatever reason.



> No that was not what I was talking about. I meant like when you knew you were bisexual not when you came out. Like I came out when I was like 19 well for the first time. Now that's not when I knew though I knew like at around 13. But I kind of thought everyone starts out bi like at first. I started out as bi in a curiosity sense but that changed like within a year or less. I was just curious for bisexuals when one would know they're going to stay bisexual?
> 
> 
> it seems like it would be.


You see, I came out the same age I found out. 14. I always knew it was more than just curiosity deep down but I suppose I doubted myself because teenage years are for experimenting... 

I didn't feel confident to prove my bisexuality until I had tried having sex/relationships with both men and women. There was no other age when I finally came to the realisation that I was definitely bi... After having relationships with both it sort of felt more like "great, I got that out of my system, I'm still right about being bi, now what?" I think it was less that I needed to prove it to myself but prove it to others for some reason.


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## jaderose23 (Feb 11, 2017)

Falling Foxes said:


> I am into both cis men and women. Turned on by both. I guess I'm being confusing in my answers because to be honest I don't really know what attracts me to them or what I'm attracted to first or more even? I just know I'm bisexual and that's enough. I know that I've never been turned off by anyone because of their sex or gender and I can watch any sexuality porn and get the same effect...
> 
> But you know, labels are what you make them, not everyone fits neatly into them so, whatever people feel most comfortable with. Bisexuality probably covers a lot of people who just don't feel comfortable saying "only women" or "only men" for whatever reason.
> 
> ...



oh ok I see that makes a lot more sense.


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## Kurt Wagner (Aug 2, 2014)

Falling Foxes said:


> I am into both cis men and women. Turned on by both. I guess I'm being confusing in my answers because to be honest I don't really know what attracts me to them or what I'm attracted to first or more even?


It's so difficult to know which one you're attracted to more. Attraction sometimes last only a couple of seconds if you see a person passing by. Can I really think of everyone ive ever been attracted to and discover which gender attracts me more? Sounds nearly impossible.

Lately I've been liking males more though, but only because I like what's a bit forbidden.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Kurt Wagner said:


> It's so difficult to know which one you're attracted to more. Attraction sometimes last only a couple of seconds if you see a person passing by. Can I really think of everyone ive ever been attracted to and discover which gender attracts me more? Sounds nearly impossible.
> 
> Lately I've been liking males more though, but only because I like what's a bit forbidden.


Yup, this.

More of a turn on if it goes against expectations


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## Tropes (Jul 7, 2016)

jaderose23 said:


> aren't bisexuals attracted to sex not gender usually? Like the definition of being bi has to do with people attracted to people of both sexes rather than gender? Which I find unlike how heterosexuality and homosexuality are based off of especially heterosexuality.
> 
> Also I had another question. Oh yeah that's what it was when did you become bisexual? I mean like when someone is homosexual you're kind of starting out in thought as bisexual due to social influence to some extent.
> 
> And also lastly how does it work? Like to be attracted to men and women they're like opposites. Is the attraction the same for both or something altogether different?


The distinction between sex & gender leaves gender an empty shell of a concept, I can understand why it's important for people who experience gender dysphoria, but for me it does absolutely nothing, I don't really experience gender in a way that would allow me to isolate that and "feel my gender", so it doesn't make sense to me to say "I feel I am gender Z". On a side note, I find the differences between my sexuality and @Falling Foxes interesting. I am actually very attracted to genitalia, on a very basic physical level, I appreciate an attractive pussy/cock on a partner. 

Which I suppose might also seem conflicting, so I can answer alongside the 3rd question: I don't experience attraction as a proximity sensor for how far or close someone is to some dot representing what my ideal partner is supposed to be like, but rather more like a topological map, full of different mountains and hills of different things that I like. Just like you might find black guys and redheaded freckled guys attractive - each in their own way - but not expect any one person to somehow be both.

As for the 2nd question: In my early teens I kept "switching" in my mind based on the gender of my latest crush, and every time I was still bombarded by images of people of the other gender that I still found attractive. It was the most annoying internal dialogue ever. Bisexuality resolved all of that. 
As far as "becoming" in the closet sense: I've never really came out, or went in. Nobody designs closets for 6'4 people. It's discrimination really.


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## Tropes (Jul 7, 2016)

I have a question to bi people: When are you planning to post in this thread
http://personalitycafe.com/sex-relationships/1141073-bisexuality-attraction-competence-women.html


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## Toru Okada (May 10, 2011)

why is it when you're a bisexual woman you're bisexual but when you're a bisexual man you're gay?


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Toru Okada said:


> why is it when you're a bisexual woman you're bisexual but when you're a bisexual man you're gay?


Wish I knew...

Maybe if there were more films/tv etc made by women who were not afraid to admit that a bisexual guy was a turn on for them people might recognise bi guys...

Obviously, bi women are a lot of guys fantasies.


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## atamagasuita (May 15, 2016)

I'm actually bisexual too


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

atamagasuita said:


> I'm actually bisexual too


Is this a new revelation? Heck, welcome to the club, Atama.


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## atamagasuita (May 15, 2016)

Falling Foxes said:


> Is this a new revelation? Heck, welcome to the club, Atama.


Because girls are just soooo cute. XD


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

atamagasuita said:


> Because girls are just soooo cute. XD


Can't argue with that.


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## atamagasuita (May 15, 2016)

Falling Foxes said:


> Can't argue with that.


True. And i always feel like I'm a guy. Until i see my reflection, "oh, girl"

If there's no mirror Then.ill be a guy most probably


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## randomshoes (Dec 11, 2013)

I would like to resurrect this thread based on the fact that A) It needs to continue to exist in a place where people can see it, and B) It is wonderful and made me go "EXACTLY!!" a bunch of times. Like this:



Falling Foxes said:


> What are your opinions on the terms 'pansexual' and 'bisexual'?
> 
> I often call myself bi because I don't feel like that comes with a massive explanation as to what I am... but by the definition of pansexual, I'm actually pan. I started off with a massive aversion to 'pansexual' because when I first heard the term it started sounding like an explanation for falling in love with trans people (as if trans doesn't fall in the binary) and also raises the question "can only pansexuals fall in love with non-binary?" which turned me off of the term.





Falling Foxes said:


> Yeah, that's my point. Imagine finding your label only to be told that your label is wrong and that you are actually this new term that you didn't know? Feels kind of invasive, like someone's just who you are for you. Hard not to get defensive about it at first.


This is exactly my experience and thought process. I believe I am pan by a lot of people's definition--I have experienced attraction towards both trans men and trans women (I have not specifically been attracted to a non-binary person but I suspect it would be possible), in fact, noticing I was attracted to a trans woman was one of the first moments I had to stop and go "wait, what? girls now?"--but I still call myself bi because no matter how hard I try I can't _own_ the label pansexual. It doesn't feel like its mine, it feels like it belongs to the people who threw it at me while telling me my sexual identity was a direct attack on them. That's not an....ideal way to respond to someone coming out to you. Leaves a bad taste in one's mouth. 

I mean, I have no desire to attack people or invalidate their identity, but since when is it just cool to tell people they're required to change their identity and label? And I feel like we get this constantly from straight people AND the rest of the alphabet soup. We're just getting shunted back and forth and *told* who we are and what it means. Speaking of...



Tropes said:


> I am actually going to ask a question for.. Well, the other bisexuals: Do you experience issues with maintaining buddies, or past buddies taking their distance when finding out? You know, friends of the non sexual kind, guys to drink beer / game / play sports / whatever with?
> 
> To bisexual women, the same question, do you experience being treated differently by female friends of the non sexual kind, or other women not being as comfortable around you as they might be around a hetrosexual friend?


STORY TIME

I had a friend all through middle and high school who really, _really_ wanted me to get dressed up with her and go out and flirt with guys and make out with guys and then talk about guys etc., etc., etc. And I wasn't super interested because I'm not very social and take a long time to warm up to people as friends, let alone feel comfortable enough with them to get to a sexual or romantic place. This absolutely baffled and frustrated her. She just didn't get it. Fast forward to me coming home from college with a brand new shiny girlfriend. The first lull in the conversation after she meets my girlfriend she goes "So you're a lesbian now?" with the tone of the detective who has just solved the murder mystery. It explained everything for her somehow, like that was the only possible way I could be uninterested in interacting with guys in the way _she_ wanted to. And then I had to burst her bubble and be like, um no, I still like guys, liked guys the whole time, never been confused about that. The really ironic thing is that I'm actually attracted to men more often, statistically speaking (maybe something like 70/30). 

Okay, so I think @Falling Foxes mentioned tending to end up in relationships with other bisexuals, and I've found that too (although my sample size is smallish). My girlfriend is way more into women than men, but she's always struggled to find women to date because lesbians as a whole just don't trust or aren't interested in bi women. On the other hand, people tend to gravitate towards those with similar experiences to them, so that's probably a contributing factor. I realized recently that even in high school before I knew I was bi, I had somehow managed to make a very large number of bi female friends. And I just accumulated more in college. So. 

Question for the peanut gallery: have you dated more straight, gay, or bi/pan people in your life? What about just slept with? I'm curious if anyone's noticed any interesting patterns.

Anyway, insanely long post over now. Thread successfully bumped.


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## crazitaco (Apr 9, 2010)

Fredward said:


> This is a common misconception but it's the exact opposite, actually! For breeders, love is a side effect. Because of evolution their primary impetus is, well, breeding! Their feelings of 'love' is only ever there, consciously or subconsciously, to help them achieve that goal. For same-sex couples though love is not a means to an end, it simply _is _the end. For that reason the love we experience is pure and unadulterated. This is only sensible after all, considering a feeling or action is always more genuine and authentic when it's undertaken sans any extraneous considerations.
> 
> Me and my non-breeder friends have started a nonprofit where we stand in front of a large blank canvass and throw each other with cans of vibrant paint (meaning the paint _in _the cans, not the actual paint cans. We only do that when we're demonstrating the pain of actual heartbreak) before we rub our bodies against each other in an attempt to communicate, through art, what actual love feels like to those who can, through no fault of their own, never experience it. We've had many breeders coming up to us, tears streaming down their faces to tell us they never knew love could be so beautiful.
> 
> We're currently planning a world tour, feel free to donate here. You can donate whatever you wish but with gentle sincerity we suggest a donation of $50 and up.


I don't understand "love", but tbh that sounds quite ridiculous from my perspective.

Edit: lol fucking rick astley. Nvm


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## Notus Asphodelus (Jan 20, 2015)

atamagasuita said:


> Because girls are just soooo cute. XD


Can't argue with that either..


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## Surreal Snake (Nov 17, 2009)

Funny what they call”Art”


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## EccentricSiren (Sep 3, 2013)

randomshoes said:


> I would like to resurrect this thread based on the fact that A) It needs to continue to exist in a place where people can see it, and B) It is wonderful and made me go "EXACTLY!!" a bunch of times. Like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I haven't encountered this personally, just aware that it's an issue. But to me it seems ridiculous to dictate who someone else is attracted to sexually. I can be accepting of someone as a person and respect their identity without having to be sexually attracted to them. I identify as bisexual rather than pansexual because I feel it fits me better. I know several lovely non-binary people and transgender people. I like them as people and as friends. I just don't see myself becoming sexually attracted to them. That's just not how I'm wired. If I were straight, no one would care if I wasn't sexually attracted to women. If I were a lesbian, no one would care if I wasn't attracted to men. But somehow, since I can experience attraction to two different kinds of people, in some people's minds that means I have to be attracted to all possible kinds of people or else I'm discriminating against them.


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## atamagasuita (May 15, 2016)

Notus Asphodelus said:


> Can't argue with that either..


Guys.. Are.. *cough* but i love them


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

randomshoes said:


> I would like to resurrect this thread based on the fact that A) It needs to continue to exist in a place where people can see it, and B) It is wonderful and made me go "EXACTLY!!" a bunch of times.


Hey, thanks for that! I was meant to keep on top of this and keep bumping it up... But I didn't because that involved being organised and remembering things!




> This is exactly my experience and thought process. I believe I am pan by a lot of people's definition--I have experienced attraction towards both trans men and trans women (I have not specifically been attracted to a non-binary person but I suspect it would be possible), in fact, noticing I was attracted to a trans woman was one of the first moments I had to stop and go "wait, what? girls now?"--but I still call myself bi because no matter how hard I try I can't _own_ the label pansexual. It doesn't feel like its mine, it feels like it belongs to the people who threw it at me while telling me my sexual identity was a direct attack on them. That's not an....ideal way to respond to someone coming out to you. Leaves a bad taste in one's mouth.
> 
> I mean, I have no desire to attack people or invalidate their identity, but since when is it just cool to tell people they're required to change their identity and label? And I feel like we get this constantly from straight people AND the rest of the alphabet soup. We're just getting shunted back and forth and *told* who we are and what it means. Speaking of...


There's this new obsession with generating more and more labels in an attempt to be more and more inclusive. Whilst that's great for kids and adults confused about who they are suddenly having vocabulary to explain it, it also requires everyone before to juggle around their own sexual identities in order to keep the labels relevant...



> STORY TIME
> 
> I had a friend all through middle and high school who really, _really_ wanted me to get dressed up with her and go out and flirt with guys and make out with guys and then talk about guys etc., etc., etc. And I wasn't super interested because I'm not very social and take a long time to warm up to people as friends, let alone feel comfortable enough with them to get to a sexual or romantic place. This absolutely baffled and frustrated her. She just didn't get it. Fast forward to me coming home from college with a brand new shiny girlfriend. The first lull in the conversation after she meets my girlfriend she goes "So you're a lesbian now?" with the tone of the detective who has just solved the murder mystery. It explained everything for her somehow, like that was the only possible way I could be uninterested in interacting with guys in the way _she_ wanted to. And then I had to burst her bubble and be like, um no, I still like guys, liked guys the whole time, never been confused about that. The really ironic thing is that I'm actually attracted to men more often, statistically speaking (maybe something like 70/30).


People often use sexuality as a means of justifying when you don't live up to your gender's expectations... Whilst it frustrates me I also find it a little liberating that I'm not expected to conform for that reason alone. That friend of yours will never fully understand and it just stops shaking her world if she looks at it in such simplistic terms... Some people need that for their own 'sanity' I guess because then they know where they fit.



> Okay, so I think @Falling Foxes mentioned tending to end up in relationships with other bisexuals, and I've found that too (although my sample size is smallish). My girlfriend is way more into women than men, but she's always struggled to find women to date because lesbians as a whole just don't trust or aren't interested in bi women. On the other hand, people tend to gravitate towards those with similar experiences to them, so that's probably a contributing factor. I realized recently that even in high school before I knew I was bi, I had somehow managed to make a very large number of bi female friends. And I just accumulated more in college. So.
> 
> Question for the peanut gallery: have you dated more straight, gay, or bi/pan people in your life? What about just slept with? I'm curious if anyone's noticed any interesting patterns.
> 
> Anyway, insanely long post over now. Thread successfully bumped.


To answer the question, actually one night stands have been with heterosexuals. Either bicurious heterosexuals who saw me as someone to tick something off of their bucket list or heterosexuals cause... Well they were the opposite gender and that's much easier for a hook up.

I mean disclaimer: I've never really been a part of the gay scene. I know there's a big hook up culture and I'd probably find more gay one night stands but I've just never seen a great need for that yet.


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## nicoloco90 (May 3, 2010)

Toru Okada said:


> why is it when you're a bisexual woman you're bisexual but when you're a bisexual man you're gay?


Yeah ... or that one where bisexuality is a _phase_ for a man to go from heterosexual to homosexual. Shit's hilarious. I don't think there are many people that are 100% straight either, but would never admit to having interests or fantasies about their same sex. 

And how is it that heterosexual men nowadays can wear the tightest of tight pants and shirts and it's still considered a heterosexual presentation? How does fashion get a free pass on ignorant assumptions like the above? Why aren't they gay lol? I don't like _that_ tightness of clothes. Heck, some even wear full-on pink or scarfs and other ''accessories''. But oh no, they're very straight. Right.

--------------------

It's all just very difficult and confusing. I suppose it's ''easier'' to be just one or the other (hetero or gay).
I know i'm romantically way more in to women, but sexually way more into men (but there can be exceptions on both sides). 
However, you can't really fit heteroromance and homosexuality in one monogamic relationship. In the end I felt ''bisexual'' fits me the most. When I date gay guys, I always ask them for fun how ''gay'' they find me or not, just to hear _their_ perspectives (and not ignorant people that think a bisexual man is gay or in a phase-to-gay). They always tell me i'm not gay or hardly come across as gay. Well good, because I will never identify / feel as one. I'm just being myself and I can find both sexes very attractive sexually and romantically. However, my romantic ideals are just still programmed on women, I just don't see/feel it with men to that depth. 

In the end I know romantic fulfilment is more important to me than sexual fulfilment. And to be honest, how many people in relationships are really sexually fulfilled ideally? Everyone has fantasies they don't really can or want to exercise anyway. But it's a bit sad, because I would love for my romantic interest to also be my sexual interest, not just by mind but also by how my body responds to them.
I don't want to feel like I have to make some decision or something, like a trade-off between romance and sex, but it very much feels like that nowadays. I'd probably be better off staying single  - but that is not really realistic. I know I will be struck again one day. I try to be more open romantically to guys too now, because I feel that it might be subdued maybe by my own ideals, upbringing, environment, etc. Who knows right?


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## Cal (Sep 29, 2017)

So do bisexuals actually love bicycles, or am I getting the definition wrong?


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## pwowq (Aug 7, 2016)

Tropes said:


> I have a question to bi people: When are you planning to post in this thread
> http://personalitycafe.com/sex-relationships/1141073-bisexuality-attraction-competence-women.html


Never. The question is too complicated for my simplistic horndog mind.



Toru Okada said:


> why is it when you're a bisexual woman you're bisexual but when you're a bisexual man you're gay?


At least I'm not gay.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

Cal said:


> So do bisexuals actually love bicycles, or am I getting the definition wrong?


I hate bicycles. 

You wanna know a secret? I can't even ride one. Just two to keep me up? I'll take four, thanks.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

nicoloco90 said:


> Well yeah, everything you just said basically. I mean they were also in the back of my mind when I was with my ex-gf. We were very romantic and she balanced me out being a woman, like you mention. I loved being her bf and being the man in the relationship so to say. I always take on a protective role or the ''stronger'' one, because I care a lot for my loved ones.
> But honestly, I don't really feel like I ''am'' this person. So, I think I prefer stronger women in personality as well as sexually, or maybe just a guy that is overall taller/bigger than me.
> 
> I used to have dreams/ideals about having my own family, but actually the older I get the more I feel neutral on it. Being with a woman in terms of a deep relationship still feels a little more ''right'' to me than with men, but then again I probably never found a guy that fit me as well either, so what can I say.
> ...


I swear I can relate to every one of your posts a little scaringly well, not just on this thread! Literally I've experienced all of this. And I've flirted with the idea of polyamory but I think in my heart I know it'll never work out. Maybe what we are looking for out there is rare but out there or maybe we'll eventually grow up and know what we can compromise... well, here to us both working it all out? Part of the journey of life or something.


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## nicoloco90 (May 3, 2010)

Falling Foxes said:


> I swear I can relate to every one of your posts a little scaringly well, not just on this thread! Literally I've experienced all of this. And I've flirted with the idea of polyamory but I think in my heart I know it'll never work out. Maybe what we are looking for out there is rare but out there or maybe we'll eventually grow up and know what we can compromise... well, here to us both working it all out? Part of the journey of life or something.


Aw that is very nice to hear! Good that we can relate so well on something so complex and tough to define and explain! :blushed::kitteh:Certainly I did not expect that. Thanks for the ENFP's :3 

Yeah, it comes to the point where you start to consider that you (me) need some kind of open-relationship in which you can be with a emotional lover and someone else from the opposite sex. But that is so bizarre and realistically in my heart I know that is the farthest from what I want in my romantic, relationship and love ideals! I don't think that is negotiable at all! Besides, things like that are rather volatile and messy, sounds like emotional rollercoasters, drama, unhealthy mental effects and whatnot. Sure, it's not a boring lifestyle i'm sure (just like in da movies). But no, no thanks.

As I mentioned before, I think none of all of this really matters that much to me nor bothers me as much, once I fall hard in love again with someone, because then they are all you want and care for, they are the prime desire. I've experienced this before luckily, so I know in that situation everything can be just fine as is. Besides, i'm not a cheater nor inclined to be one because any of this (despite the bad stigmas that hang and loom above bisexuals). 

Please do share more of your own specific thoughts and dilemma's @Falling Foxes (PM if it suits better)


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## IssaVibe (Jan 3, 2013)

nicoloco90 said:


> @*Falling Foxes*
> 
> When you fall for someone, you fall for them and that's that, it doesn't really matter what gender they are.
> 
> However in the end there's always a slight preference to one gender right? Did you ever feel like you had to ''choose''? Like, say you go with a female you have these and those ''perks'' (for instance females are often more emotionally expressive and capable), but if you were to go with males you have other ''perks'' (for instance males are often more sexually expressive and maybe have similar needs)? Also there's some stuff you can only do/have with females and vice versa, without me explicitly stating all that. HAVING CHILDREN OF COURSE, yes, that is what I meant (no not really, but maybe a little too), ok good.


 @nicoloco90 @Falling Foxes 

My preferences have always fluctuated. 

I’m more comfortable around women and I’m not as shy or hesitant to take on more of a dominant role. My first relationship was with a girl and everything about it was great except, we had different visions for the future. She wanted us to be long-term and I wasn’t quite ready for that! As selfish as it was, I couldn’t shake off this feeling that I was meant to be with a guy and anything I do with women should remain purely physical. That changed as I got older and gained more experience but there’s definitely an expectation there. 

I see children as a product of love between partners in a relationship and so I’m not really bothered whether they’re biologically related to me or not. But what does concern me (don’t know if you guys can relate!) is whenever I’m in a het relationship, I always feel like I don’t deserve to be in the LGBTQ+ community anymore; like my identity only exists conditionally. Of course, I know that’s a load of bull but it doesn’t help when people assume I’m straight and they’re surprised when I come out because I don’t typically 'look gay’. It’s pretty invalidating.


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## IssaVibe (Jan 3, 2013)

nicoloco90 said:


> besides men are more exciting and better at sex.


I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you there mate ;D


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## nicoloco90 (May 3, 2010)

IssaVibe said:


> I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you there mate ;D


haha figures .... :''''D


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## nicoloco90 (May 3, 2010)

IssaVibe said:


> @*nicoloco90* @*Falling Foxes*
> 
> My preferences have always fluctuated.
> 
> ...


I can definitely relate lots with the first parts, and I seem to experience these preference fluctuations now. Concerning some LGBTQ+ community or not, I wouldn't care less, usually these communities are more outspoken and have more outspoken or eccentric people amongst them (as I see it) than me anyway. It's not like I relate with _them_ per se. I'm being me and thats a hole sort on its own, or just a bisexual ENFP :tongue: so I can relate with you guys <3

Heh... when I ask gay men whether or not they find me gay or how much of me they find gay, it is usually a pretty low or unapparent attitude/aura about me. Surely I hold myself back too a little, but I try to loosen up and just do and be whatever I like or feel like. Just like I liked the rosegold pink colour the most for my iphone  who wants gold, grey or half white  ... give me all black or all white .. but no. Well then, I take the pink one! I see it as a little nuance  (not that pink is per se girly, but yeah it kinda is). My colleague was quick to make a gay comment on it :tongue: oh priceless.


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## Miss Bingley (Jun 28, 2013)

Nabbit said:


> I've heard that bisexuals are attacked sometimes by homosexuals for... I guess having the option to appear straight? Is this true in your experience?


Uh, yes. I have a bunch of lesbian friends, but some lesbians, I find, have some...animosity towards bi women. Especially femme bi women, which tend to be the most 'straight' presenting. I think it's important to recognize that there is no such thing as 'appearing' straight. Even if I'm dating a guy, I'm still bisexual. When I literally do anything at all, I'm still acting as a bisexual. 



Majority said:


> Do you lean one way or the other?


Depends on my mood. I go through phases where I like girls more than guys, and vice versa. Being with a guy and being with a girl are too completely different feelings/sensations, that it's hard to compare.



sriracha said:


> At what age did you find out that you were bisexual? Did you accept yourself then or later? If later, what age was that? Did you have any experience of denying to yourself that you're bisexual?
> How did you reveal yourself to your family and friends (if they know)? How were their responses?


I mean, I was a tomboy growing up, and I had crushes on my friends that were boys. I never really got along with girls, or had them as friends, until I was ten or eleven. Around that age, I became super girly, and 'admired' a whole bunch of female celebrities (I mean, I had crushes on them. There's no other reason I would have pictures of Kate Beckinsale on my wall. I didn't like her because she's a role model, I liked her because she was hot). Maybe around thirteen I thought 'I think I'm bi," but I was so absorbed in academic work that I sort of pushed the thought off until I was eighteen. I had gotten into college, I could finally take a breath, and I was like 'oh shit. I'm bi, aren't I.'

I'm an only child, and I'm very close to my parents (I'm not close to my extended family, so I always felt like it was just the three of us.) I wanted to tell them, desperately, but my dad is fairly conservative and I was scared that they wouldn't accept me. I was so nervous that it made me physically ill lmao. I finally did tell them, and they were cool with it. I mean, they're theoretically cool. They said all the niceties, that they'll love me and accept me no matter what, but still get weird whenever I mention liking a girl. 

I didn't bother telling my friends from high school, because I was just about to move off to college anyway. Everyone at my school know. I'm officially 'out' going forward. It's never really been an issue. 



Falling Foxes said:


> For others: do you find your personality changes/adjusts depending on the gender of your partner?


YES. First of all, guys frustrate me, usually because they act kind of dumb, so I can be more sarcastic and mean and witty with them, a bit. But girls make me so nervous! I always think about planning perfect dates, and holding doors open and all of that shit. I turn into ye olde knight in shining armor, and I'm a super femme. 



Tropes said:


> To bisexual women, the same question, do you experience being treated differently by female friends of the non sexual kind, or other women not being as comfortable around you as they might be around a hetrosexual friend?


It hasn't been a problem. I mean, at school, I have best friends that are gay, bi, and straight, and it's never been a big deal. I was a little nervous when I studied abroad this past summer. There were other queer girls there, but all of my friends were straight. They never really cared at all - in fact, they made an effort to include me in stuff, while we were out asking if there were any girls I saw and liked, etc. They sometimes asked me questions like these, but only after making sure I was comfortable answering. 



Denature said:


> Are you born gay or is it something you find out AKA choose to be later in life?


First, being bi and being gay were two completely different ballgames, my dude. And I would say for most people (if not all!) it's totally something that you're born with. Like, I've been bi as long as I can remember. I may have not realized it at the time, but it all makes sense now. It's not something you can turn on and off. 



jaderose23 said:


> And also lastly how does it work? Like to be attracted to men and women they're like opposites. Is the attraction the same for both or something altogether different?


For me, they're super different. Being with guys is like driving a fast car - it's exhilarating, it's challenging, it's exciting. I feel confident. Being with girls is all butterflies, and warm, cozy feelings, holding hands and cuddles.


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## jaderose23 (Feb 11, 2017)

yeah I'm kind of specific in attraction I don't find black guys attractive nor do I find red heads attractive but more a middle moderate that's why I prefer latino or mixed guys generally sometimes white guys but not the extreme of either black or white. Height and size are similar too but I can bend on height very easily even if he's my height which is short for a girl lol. But my preference is rather rigid now that you mention it.





Tropes said:


> The distinction between sex & gender leaves gender an empty shell of a concept, I can understand why it's important for people who experience gender dysphoria, but for me it does absolutely nothing, I don't really experience gender in a way that would allow me to isolate that and "feel my gender", so it doesn't make sense to me to say "I feel I am gender Z". On a side note, I find the differences between my sexuality and @Falling Foxes interesting. I am actually very attracted to genitalia, on a very basic physical level, I appreciate an attractive pussy/cock on a partner.
> 
> Which I suppose might also seem conflicting, so I can answer alongside the 3rd question: I don't experience attraction as a proximity sensor for how far or close someone is to some dot representing what my ideal partner is supposed to be like, but rather more like a topological map, full of different mountains and hills of different things that I like. Just like you might find black guys and redheaded freckled guys attractive - each in their own way - but not expect any one person to somehow be both.
> 
> ...


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## XionZa (Oct 27, 2017)

Are bisexuals equally attracted to both genders?


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## XionZa (Oct 27, 2017)

Eventually you have to choose with whom to be, don't you? So is Bisexuality essentially an experimenting phase?


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## XionZa (Oct 27, 2017)

Some questions that have been on my mind.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

XionZa said:


> Are bisexuals equally attracted to both genders?


Yes and no. It varies from person to person. Some can be mostly heterosexual with gay tendencies, vice versa.

Personally, I think I am equally attracted to both but to me, it doesn't matter about choosing one more than the other. I'm attracted to both and there is no scale for me.



XionZa said:


> Eventually you have to choose with whom to be, don't you? So is Bisexuality essentially an experimenting phase?


That's assuming that we need to choose a gender when we choose a person. Heterosexual guys don't choose to be straight when they settle down with a woman, do they? They just are straight and then choose a woman to settle down with. Likewise, Bisexuals just are bisexual and that doesn't change no matter who they may or may not decide to be with.

Do you think that attraction to other people simply stops when you are in a committed relationship? Or that previous relationships cease to mean anything? Is every relationship before 'the one' an experiment?


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

A helpful guide.


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## Notus Asphodelus (Jan 20, 2015)

Falling Foxes said:


> A helpful guide.


I always relate to being a werewolf.


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## Potatooesunshinerays (Dec 26, 2017)

is unconditional love real


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## pwowq (Aug 7, 2016)

Potatooesunshinerays said:


> is unconditional love real


There's always conditions.


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## Dustanddawnzone (Jul 13, 2014)

Are traps gay?


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## pwowq (Aug 7, 2016)

Dustanddawnzone said:


> Are traps gay?


Yes. In denial of it, but imo yes they are at least bisexual.


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## pwowq (Aug 7, 2016)

XionZa said:


> Are bisexuals equally attracted to both genders?


No. Different humans have different qualities. Are you equally attracted to all females? If yes: Really? Give it a think. I'll doubt your answer until convinced by you. 15 yo girl? 89 yo hag? 21 yo female wrestling champion? 23 yo female fitness coach? 32 yo female overweight unemployed lonely heroin addict?



XionZa said:


> Eventually you have to choose with whom to be, don't you? So is Bisexuality essentially an experimenting phase?


Choice? As if I have a harem of gays and gals and males and females around me at all times. If it feels solid with a person I'll go for him/her... there is as much choosing as you do when attracting females, none.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

pwowq said:


> No. Different humans have different qualities. Are you equally attracted to all females? If yes: Really? Give it a think. I'll doubt your answer until convinced by you. 15 yo girl? 89 yo hag? 21 yo female wrestling champion? 23 yo female fitness coach? 32 yo female overweight unemployed lonely heroin addict?


In some respects that's the same argument I use to convince myself that there is no "I'm more attracted to women" or vice versa. There are different qualities so they aren't really comparable. Men and women are different experiences, not exactly comparable to me.

I could think that cute girls with glasses are my thing and then be swept away by a man the next minute. So what use do preferences hold if they change so often or if none of these qualities that I think I prefer exist in the next person I end up with?

Because I can't compare I try to look at my history instead... maybe there's a correlation between the people who I loved or the people who I slept with? But... no, they are all very different from the last... maybe _that's_ what turned me on more? Just the fact that they were a different experience or different eye candy, whatever it may be.

So... no, I don't think that you can't convince me that I lean one way or another. Maybe in my 40s, I'll settle for one 'preference' or it still won't matter cause I found one person to focus on.


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## 8080 (Oct 6, 2020)

WickerDeer said:


> I'm curious about your thoughts about bisexuality because I just wonder if there is *a gulf between bisexual experience and other lgbtq experiences*.
> 
> But do you think that it's *easier for you as a bisexual person to blend in with what is "normal" if you want to?* Like you could choose to just date men and since you're gender identity fits your assigned-at-birth gender, you would be able to be "normal" looking to everyone pretty easily (without as much effort)...still get married, still date, still have a romantic life.


People keeping their likes and dislikes to themselves is nothing special; when it is the World Cup, most people pretend to have at least a slight interest in football instead; they shy away from admitting that they find adults ridiculous who watch other adults kicking balls. When push comes to shove, one is Buddhist or agnostic, as atheist would be too confrontational. Wealthy people do not want to be thought wealthy in places where the opposite seems more profitable.

In a heterosexual environment, anyone can fly under the radar who wants to, provided they are not perceived as non-heterosexual. When I lived with two others, our sexual behaviour was optimally diversified: homosexual, heterosexual and bisexual. And who was always classified as homosexual? Our accommodating heterosexual feeler with the high-pitched voice.

But he was open-minded enough to let me show him the gay subculture; conversely, he showed me weird ‘heterosexual’ places, like a transsexual bar, where one attraction was not being pickpocketed upon entry during the extensive embrace. The ordinary heterosexual man only dares to broach the subject of homosexuality as far as the man appears to be a woman, which is why porn sites are also popular for videos in which young men are a) dressed as women and b) submissive.

I do not find the adjectives ‘straight’, ’gay’ or ‘bisexual’ terribly informative. What is interesting about individual preferences is above all what _separates one person from another_: What patterns of attraction can be traced over the course of a lifetime? How important are aesthetic questions, one’s own and others’ sexual acts, how important are non-sexual reasons for the sexual behaviour?






_608,968 views after three days: “Not a real man alive that doesn’t dream of having a bulldozer, a piece 
of land, a hole to dig and a place to dump it. The stuff of dreams. That’s not a rock – this is a rock!!!!”_



Wickerdeer said:


> I also, and this is probably going to sound really stupid, but I also wonder if some of *that idea that "gay people can just choose to be straight" if that could be more of a bisexual or pansexual way of thinking*--because perhaps there is some flexibility of attraction there that strictly homosexual people don't really have. I don't want to blame bisexuals, but I do wonder if it's easier for someone who is bisexual to assume other people have that fluidity or spectrum of attraction to both genders, rather than someone who's super homosexual or super heterosexual wouldn't be able to comprehend being attracted to the other/same gender


If there is anyone who says that, it is parents, like my first boyfriend’s mother to her son: “Since you say you are bisexual, you do not need a boyfriend; a girlfriend will do, and it is less dangerous! So please, do me a favour and give up your boyfriend!” Parents have this same bisexual hope for their gay sons, of course. I never wasted a single sentence on ‘his bisexuality’. I liked the fact that my boyfriend participated in the homosexual market, as this increased the local supply for me. Since ‘bisexuals’ mostly have gay friends and not ‘bisexual’ ones, they are definitely not the ones trying to convince gays to keep their hands off men. What would the gay subculture be without gay men?

Tiny minorities should not be mainsteamed, whereas it is beneficial for the mainstream to be seriously questioned. I assume that the sex of the sexual object is not hard-wired for the majority of the population; there is no other way to explain sexuality among the Spartans or the Greek upper class in antiquity. Homosexuality was not so persistently suppressed because it was impossible, but because it was the real threat of male sexuality without impediments such as procreation and marriage. Non-human animal homosexuality is, as far as we know, (almost – to put it more cautiously) always a case of bisexuality. See *Bruce Bagemihl, Sexual Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity (1999). *The gay author of this book, which is well worth reading, was naturally not enthusiastic about this result of his research. There you find more about bisexual non-human mammals, like dolphins, elephants, giraffes, lions, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans.

What is ‘super heterosexual’ supposed to mean? Someone who subscribes to ten women's magazines, spends every spare minute with women talking about women's issues, and can give an off-the-cuff half-hour lecture on the female reproductive system? Most men are bored in a _heterosocial_ environment after all; most likely women feel best understood by homosexual feelers.

For men, ‘super heterosexual’ might mean: maximum fear of homosexuality plus absence of homosexuality true to the motto of Western soldiers in Afghanistan, “The worst thing was not the Taliban, but the Pashtuns who flirted with us as if we were homosexuals.” The ‘heterosexual’ man hates it that he becomes a sexual object for other men instead of being able to experience himself exclusively as a sexual subject. And men judge men less mercifully than women.



Wickerdeer said:


> I'm just wondering because I usually identify as heterosexual because it's just easier (and tbh I don't want to mislead people--I'm not interested in dating women), but I probably do have some flexibility when it comes to sexuality and *possibly could be bisexual to a small degree* (like if there is a spectrum).


Of course, there is no more need or even obligation to communicate one’s sexual interests than there is for culinary interests. But it helps the ‘minorities’ if members of the majority consider minority behaviour as a possibility, even if only playfully.

Here is a cluster analysis - there are others, of course; you can consider which group you most resemble:


*Within-Group Differences in Sexual Orientation and Identity*

_Roger L. Worthington and Amy L. Reynolds_











_*Bisexual women*_. The first cluster of bisexual women (*Group 1*, n # 160) was characterized by moderate and relatively equal Orientation to Males and Females, low Heterosexual Identity, and very high LGB Identity. The second cluster of bisexual women (*Group 2*, n # 112) was characterized by moderately high Orientation to Males, moderate Orientation to Females, and moderate and relatively equal Heterosexual Identity and LGB Identity. The third cluster of bisexual women (*Group 3*, n #66) was characterized by moderately high Orientation to Females, moderate Orientation to Males, moderate Heterosexual Identity, and moderately high LGB Identity. […]

_*Self-identified bisexual women*_. Games–Howell post hoc comparisons showed that *Group 2* (moderate and equal Orientation to Males and Females; moderate and equal Heterosexual Identity and LGB Identity) was higher on Sexual Orientation Identity Uncertainty and lower on LGB Civil Rights and LGB Knowledge than were the other two groups, and *Group 2* was lower on Internalized Affirmativeness than was *Group 3* (moderately high Orientation to Females, moderate Orientation to Males, and relatively equal Heterosexual Identity and LGB Identity).

_*Lesbians*_. The single cluster of lesbians (*Group 7*, n # 307) was characterized by very high Orientation to Females, very low Orientation to Males, very low Heterosexual Identity, and very high LGB Identity.

_*Self-identified heterosexual women*_. Both clusters of heterosexual women (*Group 10*, n # 346; Group 11, n # 152) were characterized by low Orientation to Females, high Orientation to Males, high Heterosexual Identity, and low LGB Identity. However, *Group 11* had slightly higher Orientation to Females, slightly lower Heterosexual Identity, and slightly higher LGB Identity. […]

*Group 10* (low Orientation to Females, high Orientation to Males, high Hetero- sexual Identity, and low LGB Identity) was lower on Sexual Orientation Identity Uncertainty and Internalized Affirmativeness than was *Group 11* (low Orientation to Females, high Orientation to Males, high Heterosexual Identity, low LGB Identity with slightly higher Orientation to Females, slightly lower Heterosexual Identity, and higher LGB Identity than Group 10).

DOI: 10.1037/a0013498


Somewhat simplifying, the following groups can be formed; note that strictly speaking, out of seven groups, only two are not bisexual:

*Adjectives Describing (Past and/or Desired Future) Sexual Behaviour*

1. *Heterosexual *
2. Mostly heterosexual _(heterosexual plus)_

3. Bisexual: more heterosexual 
4. *Bisexual*
5. Bisexual: more homosexual

6. Mostly homosexual _(homosexual plus)_
7. *Homosexual*

_or_

1. *Straight*
2. Straight-Bi _(mostly straight = straight plus)_

3. Bi-Straight
4. *Bi*-Bi
5. Bi-Gay and Bi-Lesbian

6. Gay-Bi and Lesbian-Bi _(mostly gay and mostly lesbian = gay plus and lesbian plus)_
7. *Gay and Lesbian*

_or_

*1. Other sex*
2. Mostly other sex

3. Both sexes: mostly other sex
*4. Both sexes*
5. Both-sexes: mostly same sex

6. Mostly same sex
*7. Same sex*

_or_

*MSM* = Men who have sex with men
*WSW* = Women who have sex with women


*The Trouble With “MSM” and “WSW”: Erasure of the Sexual-Minority Person in Public Health Discourse*

_Rebecca M. Young and Ilan H. Meyer_

_Men who have sex with men (MSM) and women who have sex with women_ (_WSW_) are purportedly neutral terms commonly used in public health discourse. However, they are problematic because they obscure social dimensions of sexuality; undermine the self-labeling of lesbian, gay, and bisexual people; and do not sufficiently describe variations in sexual behavior.

_MSM_ and _WSW_ often imply a lack of lesbian or gay identity and an absence of community, networks, and relationships in which same-gender pairings mean more than merely sexual behavior. Overuse of the terms _MSM_ and _WSW_ adds to a history of scientific labeling of sexual minorities that reflects, and inadvertently advances, heterosexist notions.
Public health professionals should adopt more nuanced and culturally relevant language in discussing members of sexual-minority groups.

*THE BEHAVIORAL CATEGORY* _men who have sex with men_ has been used in HIV literature since at least 1990. The acronym _MSM_, coined in 1994, signaled the crystallization of a new concept. _MSM_ and, more recently, _WSW_ (women who have sex with women) have since moved beyond the HIV literature to become established in both research and health programming for sexual-minority people. In part because the terms held the promise of reducing AIDS stigma, which has been irrationally attached to gay men and lesbians, we, the authors, helped to promulgate these now-familiar acronyms. But we have become increasingly troubled with the way these terms are used, especially when they displace rather than coincide with information about sexual identity. The 10th anniversary of these terms provides a good occasion to reflect on their meaning, utility, and limitations.

The argument for _MSM_ and _WSW_ seems to be driven by the convergence of 2 perspectives. The first is an epidemiological perspective: by using identity-free terms, epidemiologists sought to avoid complex social and cultural connotations that, according to a strict biomedical view, have little to do with epidemiological investigation of diseases. Accordingly, _MSM_ was introduced to reflect the idea that behaviors, not identities, place individuals at risk for HIV infection, a particularly important distinction given that scientific and medical experts had initially identified gay identity as a risk for HIV/AIDS, a characterization that stigmatized lesbian, gay, and bisexual (LGB) populations and confounded efforts to prevent HIV infection. _WSW_ was introduced shortly thereafter, in the context of controversy over the meaning and salience of lesbian identity in terms of HIV-related risk behaviors, including sex with men.

Social construction is the second perspective driving the adoption of _MSM_ and _WSW_. Social construction suggests that sexualities (like other social categories) are products of social processes. A central tenet of social construction is that particular sexual practices cannot be interpreted as though they carry fixed meanings. Thus, long before the terms _MSM_ and _WSW_ appeared, social constructionists challenged the idea that sexualities are categorical and rejected the use of sexual identity terms across different cultural and historical contexts. While the epidemiological perspective aimed to reduce _gay_ and _lesbian_ to what is thought of as their necessary core—sexual behaviors that place individuals at risk—the social constructionist critique, with its origin in gay and lesbian studies and feminist and queer theory, seeks to do the opposite: it seeks more textured understandings of sexuality that do not assume alignments among identity, behavior, and desire.

Perhaps because of the conflict between these perspectives—or because labels, once unleashed, tend to develop a dynamic of their own—the labels _MSM_ and _WSW_ have accomplished few if any of the aims that prompted them. Ironically, while _MSM_ and _WSW_ have succeeded in forcing a conceptual shift in public health from identity-based to behaviorally based notions of sexuality, they have not generated more complex approaches to sexuality. While the behavioral focus is useful in specific contexts, indiscriminate labeling of _MSM_ and _WSW_ is problematic, as we will argue, on theoretical, political, ethical, and epidemiological grounds. We are concerned that the ubiquitous use of _WSW_ and _MSM_ (1) undermines the self-determined sexual identity of members of sexual-minority groups, in particular people of color; (2) deflects attention from social dimensions of sexuality that are critical in understanding sexual health; and (3) obscures elements of sexual behavior that are important for public health research and intervention.

There are important differences between _MSM_ and _WSW_ that we do not enumerate here (e.g., _MSM_ is used more frequently). Because more health research is conducted on sexual-minority men than on sexual-minority women, more of our examples are based on the use of _MSM_. Still, we consider both terms because they share some underlying problems and important yet distinct social issues. […]

We agree that sexual identity is not sufficient for understanding the epidemiology and prevention of HIV/AIDS or other health problems, but it is far from irrelevant. In modern social studies of sexuality, distinctions have been made among sexual identities, desires, and behaviors. Indeed, understanding that these dimensions of sexuality do not always travel together in predictable ways was one impetus for introducing the terms _MSM_ and _WSW_. But _WSW_ and _MSM_ can obscure critical inquiry into the social meaning of sexuality. Thinking in flat behavioral terms may lead us to ignore affiliation networks and communities that are important sources of information, norms, and values and that provide resources for health promotion efforts.

DOI: 10.2105/AJPH.2004.046714


*Measure of Sexual Identity Exploration and Commitment (MOSIEC)*

I have a firm sense of what my sexual needs are.

I know what my preferences are for expressing myself sexually.

I have never clearly identified what my sexual needs are.

I have a clear sense of the types of sexual activities I prefer.

I do not know how to express myself sexually.

I have never clearly identified what my sexual values are.

I am actively trying new ways to express myself sexually.

I can see myself trying new ways of expressing myself sexually in the future.

I am open to experiment with new types of sexual activities in the future.

I am actively experimenting with sexual activities that are new to me.

I am actively trying to learn more about my own sexual needs.

My sexual values will always be open to exploration

I went through a period in my life when I was trying different forms of sexual expression.

I went through a period in my life when I was trying to determine my sexual needs.

I sometimes feel uncertain about my sexual orientation.

My sexual orientation is not clear to me.

My sexual orientation is clear to me.

My sexual values are consistent with all of the other aspects of my sexuality.

The sexual activities I prefer are compatible with all of the other aspects of my sexuality.

The ways I express my self sexually are consistent with all of the other aspects of my sexuality.

My sexual orientation is compatible with all of the other aspects of my sexuality.

My understanding of my sexual needs coincides with my overall sense of sexual self.

DOI: 10.1037/0012-1649.44.1.22


*The Multidimensional Scale of Sexuality (MSS)  *

45 Questions

*Item content is represented as follows:*

SB: – Sexual behavior

SA – Sexual attraction

AE – Arousal to erotic material

EF – Emotional factors

DP – Sexual dreams and fantasies


*Heterosexual:*

I have always considered myself strictly heterosexual.

*Heterosexual with some homosexuality:*

I currently consider myself heterosexual, but occasionally I am attracted to, desire, or have sexual contact with members of my same sex.

*Concurrent bisexual:*

I consider myself bisexual because I have equal attraction towards, desires for, or sexual contact with members of my same and opposite sex _*on a fairly regular basis*_.

*Sequantial bisexual: *

I consider myself bisexual because I am equally attracted to, desire, or have sexual contact with members of both my same and opposite sex. I tend to feel attracted to, desire, or have sexual contact with members of one sex _*for a period of time*_ and then switch and feel attracted to, desire, or have sexual contact with members of the other sex _*for a period of time*_. 

*Homosexual with some heterosexuality:*

I currently consider myself homosexual, but _*occasionally*_ I am attracted to, desire, or have sexual contact with members of the opposite sex.

*Past heterosexual, current homosexual:*

In the past, I considered myself heterosexual, but now I consider myself strictly homosexual.

*Homosexual:*

I have always considered myself strictly homosexual.

*Past homosexual, current heterosexual:*

In the past, I considered myself homosexual, but now I consider myself strictly heterosexual.

*Asexual:*

I do not consider myself to be homosexual, heterosexual, or bisexual. I have never had any attraction to, desire for, or sexual contact with members of either my same or opposite sex.

DOI: 10.1300/J082v19n04_05


*Multidimensional Scale of Sexuality test*


*Kenji Yoshino: The Epistemic Contract of Bisexual Erasure* (PDF, 109 pp.)

_Abstract_. In this article, Professor Kenji Yoshino seeks to explain why the category of bisexuality has been erased in contemporary American political and legal discourse. He first argues that the invisibility of bisexuality relative to homosexuality does not reflect the incidences of those orientations in the population. Defining bisexuality as the possession of more than incidental desire for both sexes, Yoshino shows that the major sexuality studies demonstrate that the incidence of bisexuality is in fact greater than or comparable to the incidence of homosexuality. Yoshino explains the erasure of bisexuality by positing that both self-identified heterosexuals and self-identified homosexuals have overlapping interests in the erasure of bisexuality that lead them into an "epistemic contract" of bisexual erasure. These interests include: (1) the stabilization of exclusive sexual orientation categories; (2) the retention of sex as an important diacritical axis; and (3) the protection of norms of monogamy. Noting that such contracts tend to become visible only when they are challenged, Yoshino describes how bisexuals have increasingly contested their own erasure. Finally, Yoshino examines the effects of bisexual invisibility and visibility in the legal realm, focusing on the sexual harassment jurisprudence of recent decades.

DOI: 10.2307/1229482


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