# Religion and MBTI



## Korvyna (Dec 4, 2009)

I've always had a really hard time grasping onto religion... I've tried to accept religion and attend church, but I always struggle with the fact and proof that God exists. I've never seen anything definitive, so I've always tried to argue... And that's never gone over well. A close friend of mine is a very devout Christian and she's tried to talk me through it, but to me it still feels like blind faith. I've even attended church with her family, and still just can't walk away without questioning everything I was just told.

I'm starting to wonder if my type is what causes me to question religion so much... The lack of valid, tangible proof (in my eyes). I mean, I've never argued with science, because if someone says this experiment will do this. Then they demonstrate said experiment, and I'll be darned it does do what they said it would! 

As it stands I'm Agnostic and been trying to change that for several years... And so far no matter how much someone has talked to me about religion I just can't grasp it and get the questions about its validity out of my head.


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## Lucretius (Sep 10, 2009)

My advice would be to trust your gut and stay away. The kind of damage it can do to your relationships and your psyche are devastating.
Keep questioning, and keep demanding proof.


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## Alchemical Romance (Nov 26, 2009)

It really depends on what you understand from religion. I think we all agree that flying a plane into a building because of religion is bad and doing good deeds is good. Faith and questioning must be at an equilibrium for the religious person, therefore Thinking and Feeling, otherwise he's a fanatic. I'll give a classic text book example. Gandhi and the Grand Inquisitor Torquemada.


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## Grey (Oct 10, 2009)

I definitely recommend not trying to force yourself to become religious. If it happens, it should be a natural progression. If not, it'd be like trying to turn yourself straight if you were gay; there's a lot of tears, depression and effort, but unless you change your entire psyche (damaging it in the process), nothing is likely to change. On the original topic, however, I don't believe such things have anything to do with type. I think it has more to do with the time we live in. 

Several hundred years ago, and as some would argue, even only a few decades ago, anyone could do a magic trick and they would be hailed as a miracle worker or condemned as a witch. It seems as though this time, with science and technology all around us, people feel more willing to conform to the rational standard of doubting. It may not be the same with religious issues, but would you consider a man who lets a woman take his children if she promises to 'bring them back' to be making a smart decision?


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## Kathryne (Sep 16, 2009)

My advice: don't stop searching.

If there's something in you that wants answers, don't just let it go.

If you have questions (about Christianity, at least), I'd be happy to see if I can help.


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## Marina Del Grapes (Dec 8, 2009)

Why does it matter to you whether or not you follow an organized religion?


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## Alchemical Romance (Nov 26, 2009)

Grey said:


> Several hundred years ago, and as some would argue, even only a few decades ago, anyone could do a magic trick and they would be hailed as a miracle worker or condemned as a witch. It seems as though this time, with science and technology all around us, people feel more willing to conform to the rational standard of doubting.


See i partly disagree with this. Yes in the past this would happen. But people that doubted existed since times immemorial. Just think of Epicurus, the man that gave the term for atoms.. an atheist...christianity wasn't even born then. I think that the only difference between the nr of doubters in the past and present is that before they didn't have free speach. So they layed low. Now we have freedom of speech so they start talking more therefore I think the hypothesis you put forward, that with science and technology all around us, people feel more willing to conform to the rational standard of doubting is flawed. I think it's more of an illusion that doubters are more now, due to the fact that can say what they mean. They always were, always will be. the same for the religious guys. Society is on the right track for giving free speech though. Also tables and numbers are relative because politics tend to misinform. For example, in my country, during the comunist era, the party decreed that the country is made up of 99% atheists. After the comunists...we are 99% believers. Gee how many people found god in 2 months. I don't believe any of the stories though....both I find severily political biased. Type can have an influece...In you have a type that is logical and needs reasons for a certain hypothesis to be functional, i find it hard to believe they will hurry to church...although every rule has It's exceptions. Also agree with what you said....forcing people into belief is bad...they will believe or not believe eventually on their own...especially if they individuate properly.


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## Grey (Oct 10, 2009)

Then, allow me to rephrase - in the United States of America, where I live, it seems that more and more people are willing to voice their non-belief because the danger of repercussion is perceived to have gone down, whether or not it has. It may be that certain types have a greater likelihood of actually voicing their non-belief or leaving behind their faith (i.e., stereotypically the Intuitives and the SPs), but I don't think faith has a basis in type.


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## cardinalfire (Dec 10, 2009)

Grey said:


> I definitely recommend not trying to force yourself to become religious. If it happens, it should be a natural progression. If not, it'd be like trying to turn yourself straight if you were gay; there's a lot of tears, depression and effort, but unless you change your entire psyche (damaging it in the process), nothing is likely to change. On the original topic, however, I don't believe such things have anything to do with type. I think it has more to do with the time we live in.


Great analogy and yes I agree that a lot of people may feel that there isn't a god because of how things are presented to us and the general zeitgeist at the moment seems to follow an atheist or agnostic trend.

I personally believe in divine force, which I call god. I don't tend tangible sense evidence for this only that I know what is important to me and what my conscience says in each situation and that does it for me. 

I am very optimistic in general and believe in the good deeds and intentions of others. I once heard someone say everyone has a positive intention and to some degree I believe this, some I slightly misguided or have difficulty in revealing this though I believe its there. A stranger in a bookshop once bought me a book simply because I was talking to him and he recommended I read this author, and he was so convinced that I would enjoy it or wanted me to try it enough that he was willing to pay for it. These kind of things are also a justification for me, of an almost want to be charitable or make a difference in some way, this is my understanding of God. I don't believe he is without more within, and I know him well enough to say that it is a him. It's like an inner all seeing eye for me. 

Everyone's collective conscience is what is god, and the human need to leave a legacy of feel of importance to the world I would say is driven by something other than pure survival. There is my two cents.

You don't have to believe at all, though I am guessing you aren't a bad person and you are possibly kind to your friends and family (I'm assuming, I hope you are :happy, this I would say is evidence of what is god like even if you don't see it as something from an abstract creator.


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## Alchemical Romance (Nov 26, 2009)

Grey said:


> Then, allow me to rephrase - in the United States of America, where I live, it seems that more and more people are willing to voice their non-belief because the danger of repercussion is perceived to have gone down, whether or not it has. It may be that certain types have a greater likelihood of actually voicing their non-belief or leaving behind their faith (i.e., stereotypically the Intuitives and the SPs), but I don't think faith has a basis in type.


You know how it is...danger is always present, but on a smaller scale. Personally I hold the belief that attacking religion it makes it more agressive...like a cornered animal it bites...look at the 9/11 attacks, these kind of attacks are psychologically caused by fear...also there's people that make a crusade out of atheism. Dawkins for example. I think he creates more fundamentalists than he destroys ). Have a look at this tell me what you think. Also many Intuitives were at the base of religion...so yeah that's a stereotype like you said. The golden rule of all religions "do one to others as they would do one to you" is actually the psychological process of projection. With the doctor empathizing with the pacient, putting himself in his shoes. This is an intuitive process by nature.


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## Grey (Oct 10, 2009)

Very interesting choice for a video. I suppose that Dawkin's approach is, essentially, creating what he was trying to prevent in the first place, but in the inverse: dogmatic atheists. However, to say on topic, yes, religion is stereotypically an 'N' thing and rationality an 'S' thing.


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## cardinalfire (Dec 10, 2009)

I agree with the last statement on this video. It is basically a personal boundary and character formation really. Being able to say no and yes to certain things allows us to decide what we really want to spend our time on, though to me this has nothing to do with god only us. Our conscience is still there which I believe comes from god, CHOOSING to act on it is another thing. We have freewill, so we can make choices and claim responsibility.

I don't really understand this what you resist persists attitude, maybe I am picking it up wrong though it seems like solipsism (spelling?), the belief that when it isn't in front of you it doesn't exist. 

I know what my preferences are, pro liberal, pro abortion etc etc though that doesn't stop people choosing their own preferences. One guy in this video says don't pay attention to the politician you dislike only vote in favour of those who you don't like, which is easy. Why would I spend my time talking about or pursuing that which I don't want or don't support? It's a win win world. If I am pro liberal that doesn't stop someone else voting conservative , republican, labour or democrat surely. I guess the fault is saying that focusing on the things you don't want means they go away is wrong, somebody else can focus on them, I got no problem with that. I also have no problem saying no to things I don't want in my life. 

Unfortunately some people choose to get caught up in things which they have no control over anyway or complaining about things outside of their boundary, if a politician wins who I don't support I let it go, I got no problem with him being in power, that is how democracy works. For example if someone says something like 'oh this war is terrible' then I would say 'why are you letting it be terrible? why are you letting it make you feel this way? It is there it is happening it exists, let it go, or go and make a change where you can and where you want to'.


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## Alchemical Romance (Nov 26, 2009)

Grey said:


> Very interesting choice for a video. I suppose that Dawkin's approach is, essentially, creating what he was trying to prevent in the first place, but in the inverse: dogmatic atheists. However, to say on topic, yes, religion is stereotypically an 'N' thing and rationality an 'S' thing.


I was saying with my video that he gives reasons for religious fanatics to point fingers to him and say ---> "There he is the antichrist...the bible fortold...then people buy into that and form an oposition, that was not Dawkins' intention, of course you are right he may create dogmatic atheists in the process too" Also evry fundamentalist gives reasons to the atheist to be against religion. Psychology is like everything around us. "For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction" like Newton said. Actiong on a psyche will not always create the desired effect.
Rationality in the sciency rational type is like you Grey.. NT.


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## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

This is spirituality rather than religion, but Naomi Quenk says the following in Beside Ourselves about ESTPs/ESFPs, the section called Expressions Through Interests and Hobbies:

"Extraverted sensing types, like their introverted sensing counterparts, may be attracted to areas that address the mysteries of intuition, especially introverted intuitioin. Systems that deal with inner forces, mysticism, and various forms of extrasensory perception may hold a particular allure. The pull is toward knowledge that depends on processes beyond the immediacy of the five senses. An ESFP/ESTP couple were active in a theosophical society in their city. Their other major reacreation activity was the local ski club."

I've found that to be true for myself. I turn to mysticism and spiritual issues to give me a change from constant focus on the outer world. My love of fun and the environment frequently overcomes my wanting spiritual growth, so I've been trying to find ways to combine them.

This isn't quite the same, but my favorite computer pastime atm is reading Bigfoot reports. I love to hear about the environment -- what the trees, animals and landforms are like in different areas of North America -- plus the bizarreness of the Bigfoot idea. If anyone is interested in looking at their state/province:

BFRO Geograpical Database of Bigfoot Sightings & Reports

My INTJ husband, with all 4 letters different than mine, has extraverted sensing as his inferior function. He uses extraverted sensing activities, such as hiking and botanizing, as hobbies to relax from his constant thinking, envisioning and connecting.


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## 0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 (Nov 22, 2009)

If it were me... I would give it a shot. Don't do it half-way. Give it your full effort if you want honest results. Also, Instead of asking "Is there evidence?" ask "Does it work?"

Kathryne has already extended an invitation for you to ask questions regarding Christianity, so I suppose I will as well.


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## Liontiger (Jun 2, 2009)

I'd rather believe in what comes natural to me. I'm not particularly religious either.


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## Korvyna (Dec 4, 2009)

Thanks everyone. And to branch out more on why I tried to be religious when it didn't come natural. I was really just tired of people claiming I wasn't a good person just because I wasn't religious. I don't believe this at all. In fact, I've found myself to be a better person than my aunt and uncle who attend church every Sunday. Long story here...may end up asking advice on how to approach my problems with my aunt and uncle in the future... And I truly think that was part of my problem when I did attend church... The things I would see (darn sensors that pay attention to their surroundings) people doing during the sermon drove me crazy. One woman sat there and balanced her check book... I watched several people texting away...probably to someone sitting in a church pew at another church... I even saw one woman reading a novel!? It just seemed hypocritical that people claim to be religious, yet they are only there because they think they have to sit in a church every Sunday to be a good Christian (or whatever other belief). 

I feel better about my beliefs and values after reading the responses. Thanks everyone!


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## Kathryne (Sep 16, 2009)

Korvyna said:


> Long story here...may end up asking advice on how to approach my problems with my aunt and uncle in the future... And I truly think that was part of my problem when I did attend church... The things I would see (darn sensors that pay attention to their surroundings) people doing during the sermon drove me crazy. One woman sat there and balanced her check book... I watched several people texting away...probably to someone sitting in a church pew at another church... I even saw one woman reading a novel!? It just seemed hypocritical that people claim to be religious, yet they are only there because they think they have to sit in a church every Sunday to be a good Christian (or whatever other belief).


There are hypocrites everywhere. I would caution you not to fall into "ad hominem" arguments, though... don't dismiss the argument because of the people presenting it.

By the way, going to church every Sunday is certainly nowhere in the Bible.


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## Alchemical Romance (Nov 26, 2009)

Korvyna said:


> Thanks everyone. And to branch out more on why I tried to be religious when it didn't come natural. I was really just tired of people claiming I wasn't a good person just because I wasn't religious. I don't believe this at all. In fact, I've found myself to be a better person than my aunt and uncle who attend church every Sunday. Long story here...may end up asking advice on how to approach my problems with my aunt and uncle in the future... And I truly think that was part of my problem when I did attend church... The things I would see (darn sensors that pay attention to their surroundings) people doing during the sermon drove me crazy. One woman sat there and balanced her check book... I watched several people texting away...probably to someone sitting in a church pew at another church... I even saw one woman reading a novel!? It just seemed hypocritical that people claim to be religious, yet they are only there because they think they have to sit in a church every Sunday to be a good Christian (or whatever other belief).
> 
> I feel better about my beliefs and values after reading the responses. Thanks everyone!


True you should see the crowd around my country at easter. They go to church solely to show off they're new cars and new clothes, however that says something about some religious people not all.


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## 0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 (Nov 22, 2009)

Kathryne said:


> There are hypocrites everywhere. I would caution you not to fall into "ad hominem" arguments, though... don't dismiss the argument because of the people presenting it.
> 
> By the way, going to church every Sunday is certainly nowhere in the Bible.


Ditto on that.

I would suggest trying different churches and denominations.


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