# The difference between the ENFP and ENTP female.



## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

Pretty straight forward question, so need for me to waffle as I usually do. What's the difference between the ENTP and ENFP female your opinion? Key points to look out for. 

Please don't state the functions being what makes them two different. I already know that. That's an obvious and quite frankly, a mundane answer. 
You might as well state the letters F and T being in their type names being a dead give away also.


Oh yeah,
Thanks, in advance!


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## westlose (Oct 9, 2014)

Their reaction to criticism. Their emotional sensitivity too.


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## Kate Bishop (Feb 6, 2015)

Enfp = concerned about personal values, more emotional, like to be individualistic

Entp= strong inner logic, a little bit of interest in everything, like dealing with theoretical information


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

westlose said:


> Their reaction to criticism. Their emotional sensitivity too.


That's a very obvious point. Naturally, a type that has feeling over thinking as a higher preference in their cognitive stack is going to be more emotionally "sensitive" than a type that has it as a lower preference . The reaction to criticism is more in correlation with Fi/Te and Ti/Fe. Besides, it also depends on the context. Ti users usually hate being nagged at especially NTs.
Sensitivity is a broad term, as some people tend to be more susceptible to the senistivity of their own emotions, whereas others are more sensitive to the emotions of others. I've met plenty of thinkers who are more "considerate" to those around them in comparison to many feelers I've come across who were either holier than thou self-righteous or unaware of how self absorbed they are. Especially the ones that practice self worship in forums. That's just... lol. 

So, provide an example of how an ENTP female would react to criticism? I want to hear examples from people's own experiences where this clearly manifests.


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

Kate Bishop said:


> Enfp = concerned about personal values, more emotional, like to be individualistic
> 
> Entp= strong inner logic, a little bit of interest in everything, like dealing with theoretical information


Your definition of an ENFP sounds exactly like an INFP. Especially, in relation to striving to be individualistic.


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## westlose (Oct 9, 2014)

First of all, ENTp are in the Alpha quadra, and ENFp are in the Delta quadra. So there's a huge difference in their group behaviour.
ENFp are constructivists, while ENTp are more laid back.

Fi/Te is blunt. They tend to see the world in black and white, while Fe/Ti is more concerned of the relativity of the situation and criticism.

Reaction to criticism? ENTp will say "Huh ok, that's cool, I will check this out". ENFp will become defensive, and may become angry if you are against their innervalues.


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

westlose said:


> First of all, ENTp are in the Alpha quadra, and ENFp are in the Delta quadra. So there's a huge difference in their group behaviour.
> ENFp are constructivists, while ENTp are more laid back.
> 
> Fi/Te is blunt. They tend to see the world in black and white, while Fe/Ti is more concerned of the relativity of the situation and criticism.
> ...


That's an interesting analysis. Thank you!  

I keep hearing the term "inner values" in description of Fi, this sounds to vague. I mean theoretically don't we all have morals/values? Can someone provide a reconstructed example of this occurring in a particular scenario? When applied to Fe vs Fi or Ti vs Te.


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

westlose said:


> First of all, ENTp are in the Alpha quadra, and ENFp are in the Delta quadra. So there's a huge difference in their group behaviour.
> ENFp are constructivists, while ENTp are more laid back.
> 
> Fi/Te is blunt. They tend to see the world in black and white, while Fe/Ti is more concerned of the relativity of the situation and criticism.
> ...


That's an interesting analysis. Thank you!  

I keep hearing the term "inner values" in description of Fi, this sounds to vague. I mean theoretically don't we all have morals/values? Can someone provide a reconstructed example of this occurring in a particular scenario? When applied to Fe vs Fi or Ti vs Te.


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## westlose (Oct 9, 2014)

TheWanderer2014 said:


> That's an interesting analysis. Thank you!
> 
> I keep hearing the term "inner values" in description of Fi, this sounds to vague. I mean theoretically don't we all have morals/values? Can someone provide a reconstructed example of this occurring in a particular scenario? When applied to Fe vs Fi or Ti vs Te.


Of course everybody use Fi. Everybody use all 8 functions. Did you know that INFJs best functions were Ni and Fi? But this is Socionics, I will not bother you with that.

So, what is the difference between Fe/Ti and Fi/Te? 
Fi user are attached to their values. There is an emotional link between them and what they love/ what they believe in. That's why they can be stubborn and hurt when you criticize their values, they take it personally because there is a deep bound between them and their values. 

An example now? Dunno, imagine a football match. The Fi-user loves a team, if you tell him that you don't like his team, he'll take it personally : "He don't like my team? Omg I love my team.". I observed that Fi user (and particularly Fi-dom) always refer everything to their own feelings "I love my team".

The Fe-user will say : "Oh you don't like this team? Ok.".

Te users needs objective logic, but have subjective feelings. They will ask for accurate facts, and don't want to deal with something vague and abstract (Like you). But their feelings are often very subjective, and that's why they have this black and white vision.

Ti users needs subjective logic, but have objective feelings. I just ask for something that make sense to me. But I also know that nobody's feeling the same way I do, and that's why we have this grey vision.


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

westlose said:


> Of course everybody use Fi. Everybody use all 8 functions. Did you know that INFJs best functions were Ni and Fi? But this is Socionics, I will not bother you with that.
> 
> So, what is the difference between Fe/Ti and Fi/Te?
> Fi user are attached to their values. There is an emotional link between them and what they love/ what they believe in. That's why they can be stubborn and hurt when you criticize their values, they take it personally because there is a deep bound between them and their values.
> ...


Thank you again!  Your explanation is very helpful! 

Oh yes, I'm part familiar with Socionics. 

Like me? So if you had to guess would say I'm Fi/Te or Ti/Fe?


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## westlose (Oct 9, 2014)

TheWanderer2014 said:


> Thank you again!  Your explanation is very helpful!
> 
> Oh yes, I'm part familiar with Socionics.
> 
> Like me? So if you had to guess would say I'm Fi/Te or Ti/Fe?



You're welcome.
Well, my first impression goes toward Te/Fi. But don't take it too seriously, since I don't know you that much.


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

westlose said:


> You're welcome.
> Well, my first impression goes toward Te/Fi. But don't take it too seriously, since I don't know you that much.


Ah no problem  
I'm trying to work this out myself. I kinda stuck between both. So it's interesting hearing different perspectives on this.


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

westlose said:


> You're welcome.
> Well, my first impression goes toward Te/Fi. But don't take it too seriously, since I don't know you that much.


Ah no problem  
I'm trying to work this out myself. I kinda stuck between both. So it's interesting hearing different perspectives on this.


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## westlose (Oct 9, 2014)

TheWanderer2014 said:


> Ah no problem
> I'm trying to work this out myself. I kinda stuck between both. So it's interesting hearing different perspectives on this.


ENFPs are identity seeker. ENTPs are way more laid back, and likes to debate with others.

Do you care about your identity? How are you connected to your feelings? Are you easy to hurt/anger?


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

westlose said:


> ENFPs are identity seeker. ENTPs are way more laid back, and likes to debate with others.
> 
> Do you care about your identity? How are you connected to your feelings? Are you easy to hurt/anger?


1. I care more for learning and understanding the world around me. I guess what I focus most about my identity is "growth" in character. I like debating, but people either get easily offended or they are too narrow minded to look beyond their own (obvious) biases.
I like meeting people, but interesting and genuine people. I'd rather 10 loyal friends with unique individual personalities than 100 superficial acquaintances for show who are really "fake friends". 
Sounds boring and exhausting. 

In school when a teacher told the pay attention and not mess around otherwise she would refuse to teach. Since us passing our exams wasn't her responsibility as she already had her qualifications, and she could find work elsewhere. I challenged that viewpoint, under the logical pretext that if she is known as a teacher whose students don't want to learn or fail their exams, then other schools/employers would not want to hire her. So she as much to loose from her students failing as they do themselves. She didn't respond to the point, rather just gave me detention for making that statement. The only reason I brought this up, because I don't believe she had to the right to make such a statement in the first place that impugns her from something she is being paid to do, and also she was basically threatening to punish the majority because she hadn't the balls to the deal directly deal with the obvious trouble makers who were causing the chaos. 

2. Depends, define identity? If you mean that pretentious hipster, "save the [insert cause]" than nah not really. I don't really believe in absolutes, and see the world not as black and white. 
Perhaps, you could say I both like and dislike people. Skeptical/Optimistic in swings. I've been described as very analytical yet also self-aware. 

I have a caring side but I can switch it on and off. It's easier for me to understand people than to be "sympathetic". I don't like appearing fake and superficial.
Pity is a worthless and superficial emotion to bestow upon a person in my opinion. I regard it as an insult onto others. 
I tend to cheer people up by making them laugh or light banter. I'm skeptical about talking about the gushy stuff to my friends as I fear revealing too much of my vulnerable side could shift the balance of power in the wrong hands. This has happened in the past. Plus, I feel exposed. I do like to talk but I avoid focusing the discussion on my self, I am very self-conscious about that. Rather, I'll reference a story that happened or talk about a specific topic. I don't want to come across as self absorbed. I do self reflect often, but from an analytical view point to gather "findings" about specific moments and events in the past. For a wide range of reasons. 

Not really, I can be moody sometimes but I avoid people when I am down. I think it's unfair to them to unleash my negative emotions or be around them. I nearly never shout even when I am mad. When people are upset even if they try to hide it, I can tell nearly always tell if I've pissed the person off or they liked what I stated. Without them directly stating so. This is why passive aggressives piss me off. If someone criticizes me and the criticism is balanced and fair that makes a valid point I will take it too credit. If I suspect the person is using that as indirect form of passive-aggression. Especially, in an academic environment. That isn't fair or helpful. Also, people who love to criticize others yet get defensive when the criticism is deflected back onto them.


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## KraChZiMan (Mar 23, 2013)

TheWanderer2014 said:


> Pretty straight forward question, so need for me to waffle as I usually do. What's the difference between the ENTP and ENFP female your opinion? Key points to look out for.
> 
> Please don't state the functions being what makes them two different. I already know that. That's an obvious and quite frankly, a mundane answer.
> You might as well state the letters F and T being in their type names being a dead give away also.
> ...


Honest answer right here:

Introverted logic vs. Introverted ethics.

Most common outside difference is in way they speak. Usually, ENTP female turn topic more likely towards conceptual ideas:

*ENTP woman:* When I went to school, it was snowing. It was still snowing when I left school, which was like 6 hours or something. So much snow!!! It made me think of so many things that can be built out of it. People do not seem to think enough about that how some things that otherwise are spent money on can be built out of snow. Snow is free, get it? You don't have to "buy" snow, or "snow tools" or whatever.

*Random someone: *Yeah, like what?

*ENTP woman: *Well, if you build a wall and support it properly, there can be a very cool banner for a outdoors sale. And outdoors sale stand, built out of snow! There can be like a really cool hut built out of snow too, where people can step in, chill out and buy some goods and services!! Like chilli pepper ice cream, haha!

Meanwhile, ENFP female would much rather focus on exchanging opinions, stances on something, openly describing "how something makes her feel":

*ENFP woman: *When I went to school, it was snowing. When I was in school, I observed the snowfall and I got this feeling like you get when you are playing Skyrim. Something really winter wonderland-esque and amazing!! Actually, watching it in the classroom was way cooler than actually being outside in the snowfall. Something cool about not having this icky cold snow and wacky wind making me feel like freezing, but still being able to enjoy watching it fall down. Almost like watching violence in movies but not actually being in middle of violence taking place, haha!

*Random someone: *Snow is just snow, calm down girl!

*ENFP woman:* Haha yeah, why am I even talking so much about snow.. snow is just being snow, lol. Sometimes something just being something is more admirable than someone being something they are not. I like things the way they are. Always. Stay awesome, snow crystal!!

Point here is that both are motivated by the same powerhouse perception called Ne, but difference lies in way how Ti conversation most of the time involves something impersonal, related to a far-reaching concept, while Fi conversation is very much related to personal, opinion-tier imaginitive outbursts of thoughts. 

This is probably because ENTP's consider exchange of personal opinions and thoughts to be "egoistical, selfish, segregating and a dangerous field of landmines where the hidden taboos, phobias and creepy confessions hide", while ENFP's probably consider impersonal conceptual flight of thoughts to be "something too far from them, impractical, unreachable, creating too much misunderstandings" etc.


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## westlose (Oct 9, 2014)

TheWanderer2014 said:


> I like meeting people, but interesting and genuine people. I'd rather 10 loyal friends with unique individual personalities than 100 superficial acquaintances for show who are really "fake friends".
> Sounds boring and exhausting.


Fi



> In school when a teacher told the pay attention and not mess around otherwise she would refuse to teach. Since us passing our exams wasn't her responsibility as she already had her qualifications, and she could find work elsewhere. I challenged that viewpoint, under the logical pretext that if she is known as a teacher whose students don't want to learn or fail their exams, then other schools/employers would not want to hire her.


Ethics. I know ENFPs that does the same.



> I don't like appearing fake and superficial.


Fi again.



> Not really, I can be moody sometimes but I avoid people when I am down.


Looks like a lot like ENFP behaviour.

Didn't quoted everything, but it looks like ENFP more than ENTP.


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

westlose said:


> Fi
> 
> 
> Ethics. I know ENFPs that does the same.
> ...


Phewwwwwwww! 

No offense to ENTPs. I think they are awesome. I have more control on my filter then they do. 

However, I tend to clash with some Fi-doms especially the special snowflakes and the self worshipers. "No one understands me..." 
In my opinion the problem is they usually don't understand other people and are not aware of that. I don't apply that just to Fi-doms but it's more noticeable within that context for that type, it's annoying to observe. I don't believe it's right or rational to attempt to 
apply our own idealizations or values and project them onto others. To each their own. 
Is that normal for an ENFP too? 
Boundaries are paramount to me among other things. 

Back on Socionics, the dual of an ENFP is an ISTJ and for an ENTP it's an ISFJ. 
I know an ISFJ and she has described me as her exact opposite. lol


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

westlose said:


> Fi
> 
> 
> Ethics. I know ENFPs that does the same.


Yes that's true. But to be honest, she was acting so sanctimoniously I just wanted to piss her off and dismount her from her high horse.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

ENTP are more tomboyish, and less serious. People with Ti and Fe are generally less serious, and more "merry" than Te-Fi. Socionics list ENTP in the merry group.


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

KraChZiMan said:


> Honest answer right here:
> 
> Introverted logic vs. Introverted ethics.
> 
> ...


I get the meaning behind this analogy. However, it did just remind of how forgetful I am with keys/remotes and loosing stuff.
When I was younger I "invented" a device (never made it) that would hopefully help irradiate that problem. As it was an annoying occurrence. Like I said all about the ideas is me... :crazy: just not the following through with them lol


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## FourLeafCloafer (Aug 5, 2014)

KraChZiMan said:


> Honest answer right here:
> 
> Introverted logic vs. Introverted ethics.
> 
> ...


They both sound like complete airheads. Like, the other person is obviously not interested, and in the first case, there's one important difficulty with snow buildings: They melt.

Moving on. A week ago, there actually was some snow outside, and this ENTP (There's always doubts, but I'm pretty sure that it's acuurate) rallied up some other students to go sledding of the university roof (it touches the ground, don't worry). We got some weird looks, but it's something I've wanted to do ever since I saw that roof for the first time.


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

stultum said:


> They both sound like complete airheads. Like, the other person is obviously not interested, and in the first case, there's one important difficulty with snow buildings: They melt.
> 
> Moving on. A week ago, there actually was some snow outside, and this ENTP (There's always doubts, but I'm pretty sure that it's acuurate) rallied up some other students to go sledding of the university roof (it touches the ground, don't worry). We got some weird looks, but it's something I've wanted to do ever since I saw that roof for the first time.


That sounds so cool!


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## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

TheWanderer2014 said:


> Phewwwwwwww!
> 
> *No offense to ENTPs. I think they are awesome. I have more control on my filter then they do. *


Haha, I get _"Am I actually ENFP?!"_ meltdown on a daily basis but then I read something like you've posted and think holy shit, nope, ENTP. :laughing:

_"Is that normal for an ENFP too?"_ Yes. You are rad and healthy one. 

Special snowflake are character sort that is present among all MBTI types. :laughing:



> "Back on Socionics, the dual of an ENFP is an ISTJ and for an ENTP it's an ISFJ.
> I know an ISFJ and she has described me as her exact opposite. lol"


 I get along with ISFJ really well _but_ I need to regulate myself lest I drown her in Ne. Otherwise we mesh really well even though I'm still an ass sometimes.

Find yourself a Spock. :crazy: I have INFP friend who's been dating ISTJ for about 5 years now. They have this chill and totally comfortable air around them. He kind of dislikes me.


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

I still want this thread to continue.

However, yeah I think I'm an ENFP fo sho. Greyheart I can relate I get that " am I an ENTP?" thought often. But yeah Ne-Fi it is, I guess


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

ENTP is more rational - logical - sense of humor more crude ... Really carefree vibe , more prone to logical debate or conversation than enfp- finalize decision through thoughts

Enfp more idealistic, pensive , more prone to ethical debate than logic, finalizes decision with what feels right- more value oriented 


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

An interesting reference to Socionics, I heard ENFPs use Fe (not as a preference), could this be another reason for the confusion or part doubts?


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

TheWanderer2014 said:


> An interesting reference to Socionics, I heard ENFPs use Fe (not as a preference), could this be another reason for the confusion or part doubts?


Enfp uses Fi - ENTP uses Fe . Whether it's mbti or socionic . 


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

Yes, but I've heard ENFPs according to socionics both Fe and Fi. Fe is used in order to "relate" with Fe-users.


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

Which one is is the more "introverted" extroverts? ENFPs?


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

Upon interacting with an ENXP you wouldn't notice the difference, especially in mundane conversations. Put them in a group setting that requires an opinion and you will have your answer. Their Fe would set them apart instantly, where you may not get any response from Fi. On the flip side Te will look very matter of fact, while Ti will respond in a more personal matter of fact kind of way, you can always see the personal side of Ti, and what it means to just them alone overall. With Te, you will notice the more objective side without taking a personal stance of what they think.


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## westlose (Oct 9, 2014)

I've observed that ESTJs are often loner, and really focused on their work. I think that they are the most "introverted extroverts" (well, I wouldnn't call it like that).

Returning to ENFP vs ENTP, I think that you should check quadras and reinin dichotomies, it may help you find which one fits the most with you. But yeah, you look like an ENFP. Have you got an hypothesis on your enneagram type?


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

westlose said:


> I've observed that ESTJs are often loner, and really focused on their work. I think that they are the most "introverted extroverts" (well, I wouldnn't call it like that).
> 
> Returning to ENFP vs ENTP, I think that you should check quadras and reinin dichotomies, it may help you find which one fits the most with you. But yeah, you look like an ENFP. Have you got an hypothesis on your enneagram type?


Yah I reckon I'm an ENFP too. I'm still learning about socionics.
What are reinin dichotomies? 
As for my enneagram. I've yet to decide. Originally I believed 5w4 was the one I found the most affinity to but since I realised I am ENFP, it didn't seem to fit. I'm still reviewing each. 

I heard somewhere that neuroctism can sometimes be confused with Fi, do you reckon there is some truth to that?


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

This probs related to being an ENFP also, but I have a tendency to ask ALOT of questions. Have a instinctive curiosity about how things. 

off topic, I reckon in need to tap into that Te.


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

MuChApArAdOx said:


> Upon interacting with an ENXP you wouldn't notice the difference, especially in mundane conversations. Put them in a group setting that requires an opinion and you will have your answer. Their Fe would set them apart instantly, where you may not get any response from Fi. On the flip side Te will look very matter of fact, while Ti will respond in a more personal matter of fact kind of way, you can always see the personal side of Ti, and what it means to just them alone overall. With Te, you will notice the more objective side without taking a personal stance of what they think.


So would say Ti can be seen as being more "confrontational"?


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

FearAndTrembling said:


> ENTP are more tomboyish, and less serious. People with Ti and Fe are generally less serious, and more "merry" than Te-Fi. Socionics list ENTP in the merry group.


There's a _merry group_??


Dang. I really need to get more into Socionics.


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

Fern said:


> There's a _merry group_??
> 
> 
> Dang. I really need to get more into Socionics.


Join the club. :laughing:


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

TheWanderer2014 said:


> So would say Ti can be seen as being more "confrontational"?


No, I don't think Ti is more confrontational than Te, however Ti is more stubborn than Te. They will often argue for the sake of it and are less sensitive with other people, however quite sensitive themselves. Te will make a point and forget about it, Te can't be bothered unless provoked, and who provokes Te better than Ti, well Fe, haha!


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## reckful (Jun 19, 2012)

FearAndTrembling said:


> ENTP are more tomboyish, and less serious. People with Ti and Fe are generally less serious, and more "merry" than Te-Fi. Socionics list ENTP in the merry group.


INFJs are "generally less serious, and more merry" than INFPs?

I don't think so.

As among the INs, I give INFJs the _high earnestness_ award.


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## owlboy (Oct 28, 2010)

The difference is one is an ENFP and one is an ENTP.

Stuff like ''emotional sensitivity'' won't help you any because people's emotional states are variable based on upbringing, culture, life circumstance, etc.


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

reckful said:


> If you're under the impression that the average INFJ (because "Fe type"!) is more _emotionally expressive_ than the average ENFP (because "Fi type"!), you've let a silly "cognitive functions" model lead you seriously off the rails from a _reality-based_ perspective.
> 
> 
> If you're looking for the types who are the most and least "emotionally expressive," you should mostly be thinking in terms of the EFs and the ITs, not in terms of the FJs/TPs vs. the FPs/TJs. And probably needless to say, if somebody's MBTI perspective revolves around the goofy Harold Grant function stack (where INFJ = Ni-Fe-Ti-Se) — a model that's inconsistent with Jung and Myers, and has no respectable validity — they're likely to mostly or totally ignore combinations like EF and IT.
> ...


Whoa- comparing EF with Ef is a totally different world of differences 
Fi vs Fe is almost like night and day -
Especially if you were to compare a Pe dom to a Je dom - just no . I can tell you this much i can't really type the differ between introvert / extrovert or even sensing /intuition but when you being judging vs perceiving ( keep in mind Ni are not judging doms) theres an extremely define line . 


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

ai.tran.75 said:


> Whoa- comparing EF with Ef is a totally different world of differences
> Fi vs Fe is almost like night and day -
> Especially if you were to compare a Pe dom to a Je dom - just no . I can tell you this much i can't really type the differ between introvert / extrovert or even sensing /intuition but when you being judging vs perceiving ( keep in mind Ni are not judging doms) theres an extremely define line .
> 
> ...


I think the only difference he recognizes in INFJ vs INFP for example, is J/P. Fi vs Fe is the most obvious thing to me. Fi does not try to shame and scold people the way Fe does for example. It has breadth. It goes to war, and knows all its enemies. Like Tupac, he hits every single target in his song. Touches every base. Everybody is getting their share. Each object is accounted for. Fi is more concerned with just expressing themselves, they don't package it with as much premeditation for the people around them. 

I think functions and dichotomies both explain the the types. NTP and NFP are P in the environment. They probe. People interact with their first extroverted function, so all NP interact with Ne. INFJ and INTJ interact with Fe and Te. Making us judgers in the environment. So it is correct there. But it doesn't explain it all, because Se types, SP, are less patient, than NP I think Ne is the most patient function. It can wait for things to happen. Se can't. Neither can Ni. Ne vs Ni with their judging functions also explains why NP vs NJ, and also SJ vs SP, act the way they do in the environment, that is consistent with the 4 letter code. It isn't necessarily one or the other.


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## reckful (Jun 19, 2012)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Jung is reality based though?
> 
> How is your opinion of what types are more emotionally expressive "reality based", and others, "goofy" and "silly"? That is really are all your arguments are. Disparaging comments and parroting the same posts and passages.
> 
> ...


Reality-based in the sense that, as further discussed in the posts I've already linked to in this thread (with cites to lots of respectable third-party sources), the MBTI dichotomies — and dichotomy combinations, properly framed — have decades of studies in support of their psychometric validity, whereas the Grant function stack does not.

And also reality-based in the sense that, regardless of whether you're talking about dichotomy-centric or function-centric MBTI sources, if you're talking about the more well-regarded sources, and you look at their descriptions of the types — based on their observations of relatively large numbers of people of the various types — you'll find that they don't make the same mistakes as internet forumites whose supposed "type descriptions" are just extrapolations from bad functions framings.

Thomson, Berens, Nardi and Quenk don't say that INFJs (because Fe) are more "emotionally expressive" than ENFPs (because Fi). Those theorists may be more function-centric than dichotomy-centric, but they know better than that.

If you want to create a portrait of an ENFP and the only F-related characteristics you include are the ones you find in typical descriptions of Fi — that is, if you leave out the common F characteristics (particularly the people/relationship-orientation) that are typical of all F's (whether Fi or Fe) — you'll end up with a very impoverished portrait. If you read Lenore Thomson's Personality Type, for example, you'll find that she devotes half a chapter to the common F and common T characteristics, concluding with a list of common F characteristics that includes "an interest in how people feel," "a commitment to social obligation, empathy, and responsibility to others," "the ability to anticipate people's needs and reactions" and "an interest in human relationships and the values they illustrate."

Describing ENFPs in particular, Thomson says: "Whether they're running a halfway house, teaching a class, mobilizing a task force, or waiting in line at the grocery store, ENFPs have a warm, empathetic approach to others, and they establish immediate affective connections. They have implicit faith in their ability to identify with people, and are often sought out by coworkers and acquaintances who have a problem to solve or need to confide in someone." As the official MBTI Manual puts it, "The ENFP's feeling preference shows in a concern for people. They are skillful in handling people and often have remarkable insight into the possibilities and development of others." Those F-related qualities of ENFPs basically reflect a combination of (1) the ENFP's common F characteristics (first and foremost, the people/relationship-orientation), and (2) the ENFP's _extraverted_ approach to the world.

Being extraverted is a very significant thing, FearAndTrembling. And so is having an F preference. And there are personality characteristics that E and F are both significant contributors to, just as there are personality characteristics that are associated with virtually all of the possible MBTI preference combinations. Myers certainly understood that. In fact, Myers believed that NF/NT/SF/ST were the most significant preference combinations — more than any of the combinations associated with the functions. And the second edition of the MBTI Manual (which Myers co-authored) had a brief description of characteristics associated with every one of the 24 possible two-letter preference combinations.

When it comes to any particular personality characteristic, reasonable people can certainly (at least in many cases) disagree about which preferences are the significant contributors. But what is certainly _unreasonable_ — and again, inconsistent with Jung, Myers and every reasonably respectable MBTI source — is a _cognitive function blinders_ perspective that says that ENFP = Ne-Fi-Te-Si and that the MBTI-related personality characteristics you should expect an ENFP to exhibit pretty much all revolve around those four "functions."

That's the kind of perspective that leads people to think "emotional expressiveness" must be an _Fe vs. Fi_ thing, and to say some silly things as a result.

For example, after Xahhakatar said, "I know I'm an ENFP because even this was enough to make me cry, but in a 'That's so true! I can relate!' kind of way," here's what The_Wanderer had to say:



The_Wanderer said:


> I wonder if you've noticed that this sentence _absolutely screams_ Fe dom or aux.


Yeah, baby. How _uncharacteristic_ it would be for an ENFP to cry in response to something they relate to in a "That's so true!" kind of way. Because they're "Fi types," dontcha know.

And again, the post by The_Wanderer that prompted my reply to him was the one where he suggested that an ENTP would be more emotionally expressive than an ENFP because, although an ENFP might be one of the more expressive _as among the Fi types_, ENTPs are Fe's, and "emotional expression on any scale is somewhat counter to what Fi is about."

As for Jung and "reality based," I wasn't pointing to Jung as a model of reality-basedness so much as noting that the forumites who leave reality behind in favor of bad cognitive functions analysis are often doing it in conjunction with a functions perspective that, besides having no respectable scientific validity, also lacks the Jungian pedigree that they think it has.


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## reckful (Jun 19, 2012)

ai.tran.75 said:


> Whoa- comparing EF with Ef is a totally different world of differences
> Fi vs Fe is almost like night and day -
> Especially if you were to compare a Pe dom to a Je dom - just no . I can tell you this much i can't really type the differ between introvert / extrovert or even sensing /intuition but when you being judging vs perceiving ( keep in mind Ni are not judging doms) theres an extremely define line.


Not sure if I'm understanding your post, but if you're suggesting I was equating EF and Fe, I was doing quite the opposite.

Fe descriptions typically revolve around things that the FJ types tend to have in common (at least to some degree, and assuming they're put together in a way that fits the most popular function stack), rather than things that the EF types tend to have in common.

And my point is that there _are_ in fact significant things that the EF types tend to have in common, and emotional expressiveness is one of those. Which is why it's a mistake for somebody's MBTI perspective to be limited to the constipated set of dichotomy combinations that supposedly correspond to the "cognitive functions."

(And there's quite a bit more on that in my latest reply to FearAndTrembling.)



*NOT* sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

reckful said:


> Reality-based in the sense that, as further discussed in the posts I've already linked to in this thread (with cites to lots of respectable third-party sources), the MBTI dichotomies — and dichotomy combinations, properly framed — have decades of studies in support of their psychometric validity, whereas the Grant function stack does not.
> 
> And also reality-based in the sense that, regardless of whether you're talking about dichotomy-centric or function-centric MBTI sources, if you're talking about the more well-regarded sources, and you look at their descriptions of the types — based on their observations of relatively large numbers of people of the various types — you'll find that they don't make the same mistakes as internet forumites whose supposed "type descriptions" are just extrapolations from bad functions framings.
> 
> ...


This is one large appeal to authority. All you told me was what a bunch of other people think, and how "respectable", "well regarded" and "official" they are. I do not view those people as experts. Their models are outside mainstream and academic psychology/science. They just aren't relevant enough to be put under true scrutiny, to be totally destroyed. 

You said the cognitive functions are wrong. Let's explore INFJ vs INFP:

As I said, types interact with their first extroverted function. Ne vs Fe for INFJ vs INFP. Ni-Fe describes the characteristics of INFJ within the code, and beyond it. It describes them as introverts. Like INFP. But judgers in the environment. INFP is Fi-Ne. Perceivers in the environment. And actually more thoroughly explains the interaction. INFJ, with Fe, have a breadth of interaction. Their type descriptions show that. Why is that? Fe. How does the J and P difference show the difference between INFP and INFJ in relation to feeling? Why does it make INFJ more extroverted and accommodating than INFP?


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

FearAndTrembling said:


> This is one large appeal to authority. All you told me was what a bunch of other people think, and how "respectable", "well regarded" and "official" they are. I do not view those people as experts. Their models are outside mainstream and academic psychology/science. They just aren't relevant enough to be put under true scrutiny, to be totally destroyed.


Underlined is _especially _true of Myers and Briggs. And if one wishes to use a system that doesn't approach cognitive functions, then Keirsey is a more respected, well-regarded and official tool than the MBTI. 

But, uh, wow; now you're in for some _very long_ paragraphs relating to how some big 5 guys think the MBTI is effective, and is therefore accepted as a part of psychology/soft science and academia.



FearAndTrembling said:


> But it doesn't explain it all, because Se types, SP, are less patient, than NP I think Ne is the most patient function. It can wait for things to happen. Se can't.


I'm amused by this; you're not wrong about Se essentially as it focuses on moving and manipulating objects in the present to reach goals, but are you saying ESxP's can't be patient if they see a reason to be? 

As to Ne being the "most patient function?", I have never particularly seen myself as patient; something that catches my interest is usually jumped at, explored ceaselessly until it's interest has ran out.


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

I can sometimes find humour from inappropriate moments. I've been called "cold" by family members. Often if I am too quiet because I'm down people ask "What's wrong you're awfully silent?', which makes me think "dang am I really that loud normally?" I'm not a fan of political correctness. Been called a cynic far too often, if I don't tell people what they want to hear. Plus, I have a tendency to ANALYZE alot. I get swings from when I really like people and I'm outgoing to…"urgh humans hmph! where's the nearest rock?" lol 
When most girls I knew were into boybands, make up and clothes. I was interested in history, politics,philosophy, mythology and the arts. I was always (and still am) the person to ask questions, curious mind. My mind archives strangest information based on the memories I have. 
It wasn't until my 20s I felt comfortable with the term "feminine". Although, I wasn't a tomboy. I just didn't relate with most the women I knew. No, I didn't relate to guys either. I get told that I am funny alot from different people, even once someone told me that my delivery is excellent. I have a tendency to start things but not finish them. My father often tells me "I have no sense of urgency" in terms of getting ready for something. I am very messy/disorganised. I hate structure and tight regulations imposed on me. I prefer doing things my own way. 

Does that help? Probally not. I'm pretty sure I'm an ENFP.

Any quetions? feel free to ask. I love questions.


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## Frenetic Tranquility (Aug 5, 2011)

TheWanderer2014:14867674 said:


> Pretty straight forward question, so need for me to waffle as I usually do. What's the difference between the ENTP and ENFP female your opinion? Key points to look out for.
> 
> Please don't state the functions being what makes them two different. I already know that. That's an obvious and quite frankly, a mundane answer.
> You might as well state the letters F and T being in their type names being a dead give away also.
> ...


FP females frequently feel like others are being condescending. Moreso for I FP. But the E FP will vocalize that they are offended and take a moral high ground stance, guilt trip, etc


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

Frenetic Tranquility said:


> FP females frequently feel like others are being condescending. Moreso for I FP. But the E FP will vocalize that they are offended and take a moral high ground stance, guilt trip, etc


I do see where you are coming from, I have noticed this to be case among many (not all). 
Especially, in the political arena when debating or when trying to get a point across it's misread as something which it isn't, and taken too personally.


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## reckful (Jun 19, 2012)

The_Wanderer said:


> Underlined is _especially _true of Myers and Briggs. And if one wishes to use a system that doesn't approach cognitive functions, then Keirsey is a more respected, well-regarded and official tool than the MBTI.


You're complete misinformed on that issue. The MBTI can point to a large body of studies and data support for its validity and reliability, as further described in this post and this post (also linked to in the first linked post).

There's nothing _remotely close_ to a similar body of support for any separate Keirsey type instrument or model.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

The_Wanderer said:


> As to Ne being the "most patient function?", I have never particularly seen myself as patient; something that catches my interest is usually jumped at, explored ceaselessly until it's interest has ran out.


I'm not going to comment on Ne being the "most patient function", but I don't get this statement because don't you relate to the ENFJ type which has Ni higher valued rather than Ne, or is that your type below your name isnt really representative of what you think are but what you just want to go around portraying for now? I'm just confused on why you used your own self to see/determine whether or not Ne is the " most patient function", or so it seems at least.


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## Kitfool (Oct 24, 2012)

I am an ENFP and I had two best friends since childhood that I believe were ENTPs. I am still in touch with them now. I
ve always felt I was more quietly sensitive and introspective than them. Both were very unusual and I felt like I mimicked them a bit. One was very crass and cranky and suspicious and sometimes kind of hateful. I think she's either a 9w8 or a 6w7. The other is probably a 7w8 and she was always trying to be innovative and different. Neither of them seem all that NTish btw. Both have always been underachievers, but the first one just thought it was funny how much she sucked at school and the second one always claimed to be a lazy genius. I on the other hand feel a bit more self conscious in a way and move more towards people.


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

Shadow Logic said:


> I'm not going to comment on Ne being the "most patient function", but I don't get this statement because don't you relate to the ENFJ type


My Socionics type (IEE) is reflective of what my type is in regards to the cognitive functions, which admittedly isn't really something MBTI/Keirsey pays attention too all that much. I change MBTI/Keirsey type every week, for the fun of it.



reckful said:


> There's nothing _remotely close_ to a similar body of support for any separate Keirsey type instrument or model.


I've ran into Keirsey more in the workplace and in business seminars than I have for MBTI, I've heard even the US Military utilizes Keirsey. 



reckful said:


> ADDED: And I have to say, in over five years of posting on MBTI forums, this is the first time I've ever heard anyone even make that claim. Where did you get that idea?


Maybe you should look through more than MBTI forums.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

The_Wanderer said:


> My Socionics type (IEE) is reflective of what my type is in regards to the cognitive functions, which admittedly isn't really something MBTI/Keirsey pays attention too all that much. *I change MBTI/Keirsey type every week, for the fun of it.*


I figured that was the case, makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.





> Maybe you should look through more than MBTI forums.


I don't know why it quoted me as stating that (I actually think I do know but rather not assume), but that statement was @reckful's, not mine.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

ai.tran.75 said:


> Whoa- comparing EF with Ef is a totally different world of differences
> Fi vs Fe is almost like night and day -
> Especially if you were to compare a Pe dom to a Je dom - just no . I can tell you this much i can't really type the differ between introvert / extrovert or even sensing /intuition but when you being judging vs perceiving ( keep in mind Ni are not judging doms) theres an extremely define line .
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Let me give you a quote from @_FearAndTrembling_ himself on a thread that was about a somewhat different subject (and a different battle), communication with the world, which I think illustrates what @_reckful_ meant to say with EF vs IT . (E vs I, F vs T)



FearAndTrembling said:


> I think I am like this because of Ni. I like the "sensors sacrifice imagination for observation" and "intuitives sacrifice observation for imagination". I am lead around by inspiration, not by information. When I am talking to a girl I like for example, I am not looking for visual cues. I am imagining all the possibilities.. I am always chasing an inner thought, not outer sensory information.
> 
> I am constantly in a dream world, and small talk interrupts that. I said I hate when people talk to me in general. It is because I am already having a conversation with myself, and they are interrupting it. With Ni, all the action is inside my head. Not outside in the sensory world. That is boring. Those details are boring. My inner world is much more interesting.





FearAndTrembling said:


> We do not like details. You are largely talking about details.
> 
> I also don't really think I can get a good feeling of what a person thinks of me by such minor cues. I mean obviously if somebody scowls at me..
> 
> ...


And mind you, this was vis-a-vis with an ESTP 

I would agree with you in the sense that for instance I feel as INFP more 'alike' ENFP than INFJ. But that's *matching* 2 types (and ENTP or INTJ would match better for me than INFJ), in how they process information, even though seemingly it's just 1 difference J/P


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

Shadow Logic said:


> I don't know why it quoted me as stating that (I actually think I do know but rather not assume), but that statement was @_reckful_'s, not mine.


Thought I had quoted @_reckful_, and not you. Probably an outcome of lazily copy+pasting quote commands. Apologies.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

mimesis said:


> Let me give you a quote from @_FearAndTrembling_ himself on a thread that was about a somewhat different subject (and a different battle I suppose), communication with the world, which I think illustrates what @_reckful_ meant to say with EF vs IT . (E vs I, F vs T)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree that ENTP and INTJ would match better than an INFJ or any other type, just like I think ENFP and INFJ would match better than an INTJ or any other type but because their views and judgements are all the same, in the same order but just directed in opposite directions. That's just my thoughts on using cognitive functions to explain though, but I know how some people aren't comfortable with mixing cognitive functions with MBTI, so im just going to leave it at that.


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

Shadow Logic said:


> That's just my thoughts on using cognitive functions to explain though, but I know how some people aren't comfortable with mixing cognitive functions with MBTI, so im just going to leave it at that.


Wouldn't using functions result in some Socionics-like situation? I don't know if the quadras are necessary per se, but having a preference for one function attitude over another leads to _devaluing_ the other attitude, despite potentially having a strength in it yourself.

How do _you_​ use/feel about/react to Ni?

Regardless of that, my experience I've never had lasting positive relationships with FJ's, especially INFJ's. Most of my FJ friends are either ESFJs or primarily ISFJs, and aside from a single ISFJ I'm not close to them.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

The_Wanderer said:


> Wouldn't using functions result in some Socionics-like situation? I don't know if the quadras are necessary per se, but having a preference for one function attitude over another leads to _devaluing_ the other attitude, despite potentially having a strength in it yourself.


Well it matters on the perspective you want to use, you could use a more socionics order system, or you could use Jung's order system, but you'll get all different opinions on that, even I keep two systems in mind when reading Jung, one being the Xe-Xi-Xi-Xi model and the other being Xe-Xi-Xe-Xi which others may agree or disagree with one or both of them. I have pretty much cut out MBTI altogether, and instead I interchange between Jung's cognitive functions and socionics model A, even though their orders look different, they are not describing the same thing.

Jung's order of functions is a top down approach (most used to least used based on libido), on the other hand though, socionics order of functions isnt most used to least used, but instead they're categorized by blocks which may or may not be interrelated based on which type of socionist you ask, but what is apparent is that it doesn't go in order from most used to least used like Jung's does. You can though interrelate them though like I have done here a while back:



Shadow Logic said:


> Here's another way to see it:
> 
> Ego:
> Leading Function
> ...


Now I'll admit I do something that some other users vehemently disagree with but when I do refer to MBTI I also incorporate Jungian functions into in the form of Xe-Xi-Xe-Xi for the most part but I always keep the other model (Xi-Xe-Xe-Xe) right in the background to simultaneously play with the concepts in relation to MBTI. So when I refer to the functions in MBTI, or using the functions to explain MBTI, I inevitably end up seeing the ENTP/INTJs relationship as Ne-Ti-Fe-Si/Ni-Te-Fi-Se but we could also see the relationship under this model here also Ne-Ti-Fi-Si/Ni-Te-Fe-Se, we could also use another system that not fond of in any way but it would be Ne-Te-Fi-Si/Ni-Ti-Fe-Se. I can even incorportate socionics model within it, which is what you brought up in the first place, when you asked would it come off more like socionics, but as you can see you can use different functions models and incorporate all of them together, even though I must admit if you used socionics model then you are no longer really using MBTI but inevitably forgoeing MBTI for the system of socionics, but you could still use all the systems or models to explain eachother, if and only if you keep all the concepts consistent across the board but that's a different conversation.

The point I'm trying to make it is that no matter, no matter which function model you use, what is an INTJ in reference to what is an ENTP, if you take away the attitudes or directions of the functions, you'll see that they are both the same exact type, but their differences start surfacing due to how their functions are directed, which for both of these types their functions attitudes are all opposite of eachother no matter which model you use. Its the fact that they are the same type, without taking attitudes/directions into consideration, which makes them so similar and be able to relate to each other more so then an INFJ. 

Now when I say they relate more to each other, I don't mean in a romantic sense which I don't doubt they would make a good/healthy romantic couple, but I'm more focused on what characteristics they relate too and share amongst eachother. ENTPs and INTJs naturally have more characteristics they share together than they do with the INFJ because of the fact that they use the same functions in the same order, when not taking attitudes/directions into consideration. Everything said about the INTJ/ENTP is also equally applicable to INFJ/ENFP. 



> How do _you_​ use Ni?


Honestly I'm not really conscious on how I use Ni, but my definition/concept of Ni derives specifically from Jung, and being an Ne dom which is what is constantly active due to being my most differentiated function and the function contained in my ego, I naturally suppress Ni and Se, so being conscious of them is very unlikely for me and I have never been conscious of any process that is any way related to Jung's conception of Ni.

On a side note: my S/O is an INFJ, which has helped me understand Ni much better I'm even able to visualize how Ni could work, but sadly its only my Ne envisioning how an Ni dom views certain thing, but its in no way identical to the process in my S/O mind. In other words I can come up with a model for or see the possibility of what Ni is doing but its not the same as the actual Ni process that my S/O uses every day, all day, its more so mimicking it rather than processing in a way identical to it. The model gives me much more insight into how Ni processes, which gives me more tools to identify and analyze it in others, but in regard to how I use it, well like I already stated, I am not in any way conscious of Jung's concept of Ni within me, but its probably processing at some level within me along with other functions that make up my shadow functions, I'm just not conscious of any of them.



> Regardless of that, my experience I've never had lasting positive relationships with FJ's, especially INFJ's. Most of my FJ friends are either ESFJs or primarily ISFJs, and aside from a single ISFJ I'm not close to them.


Well there could be many reasons behind this, one for example is that some other aspect outside of Jungian related systems could be a cause of why you haven't had positive relations with FJs you have come across, an outside aspect could be something like enneagram which is completely separate from Jungian related systems, the opposing enneagram could cause a rift. Also childhood influences could also affect you, for instance if you had an unhealthy FJ parent and their unhealthy characteristics affected you negatively then it could have created an unconscious defense mechanism within you directed against or opposed to FJs, which would inevitably influence your relationship with them. Maybe you haven't come across healthy FJs or maybe you haven't developed or matured your own functions which may help you better see the relations between you and them. Another possibility could always be that you are mistyped or you may have mistyped those you think are FJs, which could also explain the problem you perceive of them. 

Basically there are many reasons behind why you may or may not get along with FJs, which brings up another point of mine, your type doesn't describe all of you, it describes a portion, albeit a big portion of you, but nevertheless its still a portion of who you are. Those other portions that make you who you are, whether nature or nurture, also influence you and your relationship to others and all of the portions that make them up. Humans are very complex, and all of these things that make us who we are should be taken into consideration for a more accurate reading/analysis to be able to more precisely understand who you are and how you relate to others.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Shadow Logic said:


> I agree that ENTP and INTJ would match better than an INFJ or any other type, just like I think ENFP and INFJ would match better than an INTJ or any other type but because their views and judgements are all the same, in the same order but just directed in opposite directions. That's just my thoughts on using cognitive functions to explain though, but I know how some people aren't comfortable with mixing cognitive functions with MBTI, so im just going to leave it at that.


Oh yes, and I'm not saying I can't be friends with INFJs because I have, including some INFJ PerC buddies (unless they unfriended me after reading previous post  ).


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

lol why has this turned into a discussion about INFPs and INFJs? Sheesh...


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

Do ENTPs or ENFPs clash INTJS IRL? I think I met an INTJ woman once. She hated cluttered creative process and thought some of my ideas were "controversial" or whatevs. I just thought it was funny and harmless. Well, atleast it got a facial expression from her. She took a break from self-gratifying herself. She might of been a type 8w9 ISFP, NT wannabe. Most the ISFPs I know tend to be very benevolent and passive, so that would be unusual is she.


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## KraChZiMan (Mar 23, 2013)

stultum said:


> They both sound like complete airheads. Like, the other person is obviously not interested, and in the first case, there's one important difficulty with snow buildings: They melt.
> 
> Moving on. A week ago, there actually was some snow outside, and this ENTP (There's always doubts, but I'm pretty sure that it's acuurate) rallied up some other students to go sledding of the university roof (it touches the ground, don't worry). We got some weird looks, but it's something I've wanted to do ever since I saw that roof for the first time.


That is because nobody rarely talks about the negative qualities of Ne types (xNxP types): they look rather obnoxious, stubborn and naive to outside observers. This can actually easily be solved if they actually discuss their plans with others somehow, and do not take it personally when someone clearly says that this idea is stupid, since snow melts as soon as warm winter weather strikes.

The university roof sledding thing actually sounds like fun. I have always thought that simple fun in the right crowd is always better than something overly complex and fruitless that some people can't resist engaging in (such as arguing politics and religion on the internet). :tongue:


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## westlose (Oct 9, 2014)

TheWanderer2014 said:


> Do ENTPs or ENFPs clash INTJS IRL? I think I met an INTJ woman once. She hated cluttered creative process and thought some of my ideas were "controversial" or whatevs. I just thought it was funny and harmless. Well, atleast it got a facial expression from her. She took a break from self-gratifying herself. She might of been a type 8w9 ISFP, NT wannabe. Most the ISFPs I know tend to be very benevolent and passive, so that would be unusual is she.


Well, I know that I always get along with ENTPs. I feel like there is a mutual attraction between INFJs and ENTPs. 
ENTPs find INFJs intersting because we are unusual maybe? And very abstract.
INFJs like ENTPs, because they aren't judgemental, and they are curious about us.

Our relationships with ENFPs are different. They are very individualistic (even if they are extroverts, and that's why they often think that they are introverts). Often trying to explore our psyche.


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## FourLeafCloafer (Aug 5, 2014)

KraChZiMan said:


> That is because nobody rarely talks about the negative qualities of Ne types (xNxP types): they look rather obnoxious, stubborn and naive to outside observers. This can actually easily be solved if they actually discuss their plans with others somehow, and do not take it personally when someone clearly says that this idea is stupid, since snow melts as soon as warm winter weather strikes.
> 
> The university roof sledding thing actually sounds like fun. I have always thought that simple fun in the right crowd is always better than something overly complex and fruitless that some people can't resist engaging in (such as arguing politics and religion on the internet). :tongue:


Don't forget easily distracted.


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

westlose said:


> Well, I know that I always get along with ENTPs. I feel like there is a mutual attraction between INFJs and ENTPs.
> ENTPs find INFJs intersting because we are unusual maybe? And very abstract.
> INFJs like ENTPs, because they aren't judgemental, and they are curious about us.
> 
> Our relationships with ENFPs are different. They are very individualistic (even if they are extroverts, and that's why they often think that they are introverts). Often trying to explore our psyche.


So, would you deduct that ENTPs strive for groups, whereas ENFPs strive for individuals socially? I HATE cliques.


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## Courtalort (Jun 29, 2013)

Ok so I'm gonna ignore the last few pages because A) this isn't the socionics forum, so I'm gonna keep it about MBTI, and B) this is a specific ENFP vs ENTP female question. 

ENTP is more expressive than ENFP. 
ENTP is more charming than ENFP. 
ENTP is more snarky/sarcastic than ENFP. 
ENTP is more likely to cry at a movie. 
ENFP is more likely to cry at their own pain.
ENFP is more "moral". 
ENTPs tend to not have strong moral values. ENFP is more deep. 
ENFP is more individualistic. 
ENFP is more likely to actually get shit done. 
ENFP is more blunt than ENTP.


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

CourtneyJD said:


> Ok so I'm gonna ignore the last few pages because A) this isn't the socionics forum, so I'm gonna keep it about MBTI, and B) this is a specific ENFP vs ENTP female question.
> 
> ENTP is more expressive than ENFP.
> ENTP is more charming than ENFP.
> ...


This where the gray area for me comes in. Define Moral? Or do you mean self-righteous about their values and dictation of good and bad? Doesn't most people have a moral compass (to some degree)? Even ENTPs? 
So is an ENTP more likely to lie,steal, cheat,untrustworthy and deceive than an ENFP would? I would of thought that had more to do with the individual. Although, it's an interesting summary. I agree with most of it.


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## 1000BugsNightSky (May 8, 2014)

Values are a big difference. I've known 2 ENFPs and they both had strong belief systems. I'm taking about both religion and non religious beliefs. ENTPs are less likely to have such strong values.


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## Courtalort (Jun 29, 2013)

TheWanderer2014 said:


> This where the gray area for me comes in. Define Moral? Or do you mean self-righteous about their values and dictation of good and bad? Doesn't most people have a moral compass (to some degree)? Even ENTPs?
> So is an ENTP more likely to lie,steal, cheat,untrustworthy and deceive than an ENFP would? I would of thought that had more to do with the individual. Although, it's an interesting summary. I agree with most of it.


Ok when I said morals I meant values. What I mean is that an ENTP is more likely to bend their values or see things from someone else's perspective than an ENFP would be. An ENFP is very value driven. 
ENTPs are unlikely to be religious, and if they are, they are more likely to dabble in other belief systems. ENTPs are more likely to play devil's advocate. 
ENFPs are more likely to have hard and fast morals and values that they will not bend. If they have religious beliefs, they are a huge part of who they are.

I tend toward cynicism of all things, but will consider them. My xNFP friend tends to believe some things very strongly and reject other things outright.

Point being, I meant values. If you think of morals as lying, stealing, cheating, killing, then no, that's not type focused. Few people would kill for the hell of it, and that's not type driven, that's a psychiatric problem.


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

CourtneyJD said:


> Ok when I said morals I meant values. What I mean is that an ENTP is more likely to bend their values or see things from someone else's perspective than an ENFP would be. An ENFP is very value driven.
> ENTPs are unlikely to be religious, and if they are, they are more likely to dabble in other belief systems. ENTPs are more likely to play devil's advocate.
> ENFPs are more likely to have hard and fast morals and values that they will not bend. If they have religious beliefs, they are a huge part of who they are.
> 
> ...


Ahhh Shiizzz I'm either a benevolent ENTP or a cynical lazy ENFP. The REsearching goes on...
Meh, no hurry on part.


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## KraChZiMan (Mar 23, 2013)

CourtneyJD said:


> Ok so I'm gonna ignore the last few pages because A) this isn't the socionics forum, so I'm gonna keep it about MBTI, and B) this is a specific ENFP vs ENTP female question.
> 
> ENTP is more expressive than ENFP.
> ENTP is more charming than ENFP.
> ...


Surprisingly, I can actually confirm this from my knowledge.

For example, Fi types can be quite neglecting to the hardship of others if they "can't relate", while types in Ti/Fe axis never have any problems with this, since they are much more able to focus on the hardship of others without relating it back to themselves somehow.

I always like to remember this one example from the movie "300" where Xerxes gets super mad after he gets hit by the spear that Leonidas throws in the air. This is such a perfect example of Fi/Te axis "HOW DARE HE ATTACK ME!! Now that he dared to inflict pain directly upon me, only now is where I REALLY REALLY GET SUPER MAD!!!" 

I think that it applies on ENFP's alike that the more an Fi-type can gather diverse experiences from the world, the more they can bring themselves to feel interest about the outside world and hardships of others. Otherwise they turn into this perverse egoistical whining where they can wholeheartedly cry about their favourite iPhone app not working to a homeless guy without one leg and blind from one eye.

At the same time it's kind of a flaw to Ti types that they have a hard time relating their experience to others. This brings about a situation where the Ti type can only be impressed if you do something they consider to be impressive. That's why I think that all sorts of initiation rituals and hazings are very much a Ti thing.


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## 1000BugsNightSky (May 8, 2014)

KraChZiMan said:


> I always like to remember this one example from the movie "300" where Xerxes gets super mad after he gets hit by the spear that Leonidas throws in the air. This is such a perfect example of Fi/Te axis "HOW DARE HE ATTACK ME!! Now that he dared to inflict pain directly upon me, only now is where I REALLY REALLY GET SUPER MAD!!!"


It makes so much sense now. Yayyyy!


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## FourLeafCloafer (Aug 5, 2014)

CourtneyJD said:


> Ok so I'm gonna ignore the last few pages because A) this isn't the socionics forum, so I'm gonna keep it about MBTI, and B) this is a specific ENFP vs ENTP female question.
> 
> ENTP is more expressive than ENFP.
> ENTP is more charming than ENFP.
> ...


This is something I can relate to. It perfectly describes the basic difference between an ENFP friend of mine (male) and me. (except for the fifth, no data available for him. It's true that I generally don't react to pain that much though.) People tend to find him more 'weird' than me, I am better at keeping up appearances. I have basic ethical rules that I adhere to without thinking, he finds something of value everywhere and applies it as needed. I snark openly, he snarks on the inside. Everyone knows how I'm feeling, he has to tell people when something's going on (Today, he said that he hadn't slept well, and kept getting angry at himself for making normal mistakes, like getting the wrong object from a drawer. As I said to our mutual INTP friend, 'Seems like *friend* acts like a normal person when he's tired.' Really, we wouldn't have noticed That same evening he asked me if I needed sugar because of the way I was sitting on the couch.)

It's accurate for us, at least, I would say.


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## TheWanderer2014 (Nov 6, 2014)

Got a poll going on in this thread > ENTP and ENFP females: What was your school years and growing up like for you? - View Poll Results


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## nynaeva (Sep 28, 2016)

Love this, I have a brunch of very lovely ENFP girl friends and I'm an ENTP girl - so I can compare.




*ENTPs are more sarcastic
*ENTPs are more funny (ENFPs are rather cute - they are funny with themselves, whereas ENTPs are better at telling jokes/funny stories ->Ti/Fe)
*ENFP are better listeners - whereas ENTPs are better story tellers
*ENTPs are more skeptical - things need to make sense/be logical in a whole, or at least for their thinking systems (ENTPs are more likely to point out inconsistencies) 
*ENFPs can come out as more naive - they tend to state opinions as facts - which can seem naive for most people, even if deep down they usually have good Fi reasons to believe in something/say something.
*ENFPs are more organized and get more things done in everyday life (like washing the car etc..) it's Te
*ENTPs can get things done - but usually project/work stuff more than everyday life (which they loathe)
*ENTPs are more competitive even for random things (play video games)
*ENFPs are more sensitive about what people think of them, especially when they feel they are judged unjustly
*ENTPs usually doesn't care about what random people think (but I truly value my friends' opinions)
*ENTPs can be more relentless when asking questions & searching for answers (Ti), with well developed Ti - they can be a deep thinker
*ENFPs have broader interests and change them more often - it's harder to keep them interested, but they are more likely to implant their ideas with well developed Te



I know ENFP get this bad rep of being not reliable etc ... but I find my ENFP friends to be very reliable and quite organized - they deal better with home chores, kids and everyday stuff than me, they are more grounded as well (this Te ...)



**Both type are very curious about lots of subjects - an ENFP can be good in science (Te..) and an ENTP can be a history teacher (Ne-Fe-Si) LOVE to see patterns in our past.... both enjoy philosophy and social sciences.

***Both can be blunt - ENTPs are direct more oftenly (Ti) but will say things in a way they will get away with it (Fe..) ENFPs don't usually enjoy confrontation - but when it comes out, it's more blunt than for ENTPs.

**Both type are bubbly and very very charming, both type can be great party host, both can be genuinely caring & nice with people (ENTPs are Ts but Fe is a more social function than Fi, plus ENTPs usually enjoy personal growth - trying to be kind included)



With my friends we are very similar behaviorally - we've been told this even by other people. But we tend to process things differently to some extent - the biggest difference is Ti/Fi - I tend to be more sarcastic and suspicious with dark humor, my ENFP friends are more trusting and idealistic (which I find really cute)

We also tend to get along together AND with the same types - INTJ, INTP, NFs', the only difference I can see is that I get along better with heavy fe user - I love when my ESFJ friends take care of me with their Fe :-D, ENFP usually get along better with Te primary users like ENTJs



ENTP females are much rarer than ENFP female ( 1-1.5% vs 6-8%) so I'm sure many people just type me as an ENFP. Which I'm fine with since they are lovely and the most loved type on this forum I think


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

Huge difference in my opinion

Except they both tend to troll for info thats seems very similar. 


Enfps tend to be moralistic

Entps do not usually stand on a moral platform


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## Eset (Jun 7, 2016)

One is ENFP, the other is ENTP.


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## Laguna (Mar 21, 2012)

nynaeva said:


> Love this, I have a brunch of very lovely ENFP girl friends and I'm an ENTP girl - so I can compare.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great post- my comments in bold.


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## nynaeva (Sep 28, 2016)

Laguna said:


> Great post- my comments in bold.


Ahaha thanks - you're my new friend on PerC lol, we are on the same threads xD

When you say ENFPs are funnier/better story tellers can you give me some examples?

My 2 very good ENFP friends (one is borderline on I/E) laugh a lot and we have these Ne quirky jokes between us, I think they are super funny - but again I'm Ne dom as well. With other people of different types, I tend to be more specific, sarcastic and animated when I say something (Fe+ I don't care if random people like me unless I have something to gain from it) they tend to be more shy so less funny, at first at least.

As for organization it's so true ahah, we are both bad at it, one of my ENFP friend is dating an ENTP and she complains all the time about how she has to do all the chores - yeah she's definitively the more organized of the two but I think she hates it lol!


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## richard nixon (Sep 14, 2017)

IDontThinkSo said:


> I see you managed to escape from the mental health facility again. Welcome back.


Thank you. Will you refute (IDK if that is even the correct word) what you think is inaccurate or inconsistent in my post that you quoted parts of? Or were you just playing around?


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## reckful (Jun 19, 2012)

richard nixon said:


> Thank you. Will you refute (IDK if that is even the correct word) what you think is inaccurate or inconsistent in my post that you quoted parts of? Or were you just playing around?


I would think the burden's on you to point us to a reputable source or two or three for at least some of those "facts" you've provided us with.

For example, you say...



richard nixon said:


> ENTP women are a lot more common in the U.S. than ENFP women.


Buuut the official MBTI folks estimate that around 2.4% of US women are ENTP, and 9.7% of US women are ENFP — i.e., four female ENFPs for every female ENTP.

What's the source for your "information"?


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## richard nixon (Sep 14, 2017)

reckful said:


> I would think the burden's on you to point us to a reputable source or two or three for at least some of those "facts" you've provided us with.
> 
> For example, you say...
> 
> ...


Thank you. My observations are the source of my information. Female ENFPs are rare in the U.S.A. A lot of that 9.7% figure may actually be ENFJs though women in the U.S.A. are a lot more likely to be ENTPs and ESTPs than ENFJs.


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## Katie Tran (Apr 8, 2017)

ai.tran.75 said:


> Highly doubt the percent is accurate- I personally know way more entps than enfps
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


She probably wanted a special cookie for that statement lol.


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## Katie Tran (Apr 8, 2017)

richard nixon said:


> ENFP women look a lot more masculine (they're some of the most masculine looking of all types), they have a very low right hand 2d4d ratio, while ENTP women are the type and gender combo with the highest right hand 2d4d ratio. ENTP women look a lot better.
> 
> ENFP women are more likely to be black, and more likely to be gentile. ENTP women are very likely to be Ashkenazi Jewish.
> 
> ...












Seems to me like you need to get out of this site and go find your ENTP woman and impress her with this amazing source of info.

That or clearly an ENFP woman hurt you bad. 

*80% of your "ENTP" woman are clearly Se doms.


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## Pippi (Dec 24, 2016)

*ENTP*

































*ENFP*


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## soop (Aug 6, 2016)

ENFPs are space cadets, ENTPs are ADHD

Also, I thought I was an ENTP for the longest time, my behavior during this time was obnoxious and pedantic as fuck, but man did I think I was clever. LOL.


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## Senah (Oct 17, 2017)

SilverKelpie said:


> I've known two ENTP women and three ENFP women. Both types had oodles of creativity, love of new experiences, great ability for in-depth conversation, and tendency towards being outgoing, but they were very different in sensitivity.
> 
> The ENTPs were not nearly as in tune with the social world. They did what they want, said what they want, no hard feelings behind it. They tended to own their behavior. Loved to cheerfully argue. Would change their position if you provided a better argument. Tended not to get insulted by insensitive words. Tended to see the world much more in shades of gray.
> 
> ...


This is interesting. I have found this with ENFPs as well. They are much more socially connected and rooted in than me (and ENTP woman) and I found it amazing that they could "love and connect" with so many people. But behind closed doors it was amazing that this turned into such a harsh judgement or rage like you say. I think it was connected to one of the huge differences between the F and the P which was this right/wrong dichotomy that we ENTPs simply don't have. 

I was surprised that one of the ENFPs I was connected to could see someone's opinion that was so different from theirs as being a betrayal. I just more was like "Well, that is their priority or personal opinion - who cares?" They were enraged that their "friend" wasn't convinced that their opinion was right. It was totally crazy. They would write people off as good or bad in their own mind. I think it was really hard emotionally on them - I'm not saying the ENFP in this example is a bad person at all - just that it seemed to cause a lot of stress and angst because they tried to life up to this perfect ideal to everyone else in the group but also felt they had no option except to convince or win people over to their opinion and were horrified/enraged when it didn't work. 

Total shocker the difference between in public and behind closed doors. We ENTPs, for as much as we debate or say what we shouldn't are pretty open books.


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

Hmm I find it funny how some people started bashing to compare the 2 types when reality is both are Ne doms and are quite hard to distinguish- bc a higher Fe entp will appear more emotional and some entp don’t appear emotional at all. Same with Enfp- if the fi works in favor of them understanding their emotions thoroughly - it’s unlikely for one to see the type as emotional bc they can control their emotions 



Anyhow here’s my observation base on the entps and enfps that I know irl . 


Enfp have Fi aux - so the more introverted or calm ones are often left unnoticed - but most Enfp understand where their emotion is stemming from and can introspect better than entps 

Entp are more objective and enjoys seeing a situation from all different POV- often time entp are more prone to playing devils advocate. Entp are more likely to unintentionally step over someone’s toes-

Enfp are more aware of their intentions- so if you meet a toxic enfp - they’re likely going to tear you apart and pick on your inner flaws bc Fi speaks the truth when criticizing whereas Fe-Ti kinda gets mad and just splurge out what they feel would get under a persons skin at any given moment 

Entp are more prone to talk about logic 

Enfp are more prone to talk about ethics 


Both type don’t really have a style - they grab whatever appeals to them - both type are lazy when it comes to dressing up and don’t see the importance of doing everything precisely- though some wears makeup- I find it’s quite common for Ne dom to get ready to go out in less than 5 minutes 
Both are unaware of the weather outside( more so in their younger years ) 

Enfp are more prone to feeling guilty - remorse and it’s easier for them to admit their flaws and mistakes - mainly bc fi is a value function and if they don’t like themselves it’ll eat them over , they can be trapped in a pool of guilt and depending on their level of Fi( how much they introspect themselves) it can either turn toxic or angelic 



Entp also have a hard time dealing with guilt but it doesn’t eat them alive the way it does with an enfp 

Enfp would never lie about their emotions or lie to get arise out of anyone ( this can be a beautiful or toxic trait depending on the health level of an enfp) 


Entp are more warm but distant- 

Enfp are close but much colder 


The closer you are to a entp the more they open up to you - Entp opens their entire heart to those that they care for ( although it may be few) they don’t hide their thoughts or emotions and are more action oriented when it comes to helping someone they love our 

Enfp are open books but they never talk about their emotions or feelings until matter is over - so in that sense others may find that enfp are cold or selfish 


Enfp understand their emotions better than Entp - they don’t need anyone guiding their emotions 

Entp aren’t as easily offended by criticism compared to enfp - or any other type for the matters 


Entp are more materialistic compared to enfp ( they are more prone to understanding capitalism and can isolate human rights and ethics from politic- Enfp sees everyone as an individual)

Im close with many entps and I know many enfps - I can honestly say that I can relate a lot to some entps more than enfps and vice versa - despite cognitive function it is hard to distinguish the 2 type 


I’ve met entp ( online and off ) who are way more emotional than I am - and I’ve met entp who are the most carefree spirit I know . I’ve met entp who find a lot - and others who hate liars with a passion - Same with the enfp 

The only differ that I can pin point on is that Enfp introspect and understand their emotions better and entp are more objective - besides that there’s not much of a difference 
I can make a list of entp who are more like me or like the Enfp I know and another list where entp and others enfp I can’t relate to at all are similar to one another 
Considering the fact that our dom and inf function align and we have our thinking and feeling function stack next to one another 


* side note - being mean to those you love and nicer to outsider is more of an Fe trait than Fi - if we are speaking cognitive function - if you were to witness it differently than it deals more with the individual than the type itself 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pippi (Dec 24, 2016)

Ti:












Fi:


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

Moonious said:


> Values are a big difference. I've known 2 ENFPs and they both had strong belief systems. I'm taking about both religion and non religious beliefs. ENTPs are less likely to have such strong values.


My father is most definitely an entp - he has higher values than I do, however stereotypically speaking enfo have stronger belief system 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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