# Should children be taught about sexual orientation from an early age?



## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

Crono91 said:


> No--but there is a difference between using anger intelligently, and blindly throwing out insults. I don't know why people view anger as something bad--it is a powerful emotion that can be used usefully. --I respect people with the willpower to fight their cause with gusto and respect.


I have passion for my causes, certainly. Whether it is rooted in righteous anger or not, I haven't the foggiest! But you are correct that anger channeled into positive actions can certainly have great utility. Dwight D. Eisenhower is an example of a president who had a temper and managed to channel it into (generally) positive means, if the anecdotes about him are correct. 

(http://artofmanliness.com/2012/06/0...-let-anger-and-criticism-get-the-best-of-you/ is where I read about it.)

Anyways, perhaps I'll let this thread get back to where it was meant to go and be! Apologies all for derailing!


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## Antipode (Jul 8, 2012)

koalaroo said:


> I have passion for my causes, certainly. Whether it is rooted in righteous anger or not, I haven't the foggiest! But you are correct that anger channeled into positive actions can certainly have great utility. Dwight D. Eisenhower is an example of a president who had a temper and managed to channel it into (generally) positive means, if the anecdotes about him are correct.
> 
> (Leadership Lessons from Dwight D. Eisenhower #2: How to Not Let Anger and Criticism Get the Best of You | The Art of Manliness is where I read about it.)
> 
> Anyways, perhaps I'll let this thread get back to where it was meant to go and be! Apologies all for derailing!


However I will say, I miss your last Avatar. Everytime I see this one I'm all ":shocked: she's peering into my soullllllllll!" xD Although, I'm sure you were going for that


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

Crono91 said:


> Woah, now you are going a little too far in the accusations. They don't cure anything, they just help those in a different direction *if they wish to be going in a different directiouals*--they don't just roam up and down the streets looking for homosexuals, the homosexuals come to them. And look at their testimonies--there is no harm being done. They aren't smacking them in the face and calling them names--you might have had some bad run-ins with some rude Christians, but their faith is bound in the core of love--there is nothing harmful going on in this organizations.


Obviously, you don't know anyone who has actually gone through their program, and unfortunately, I do. Many times minors are forced into these programs by their parents, who can legally do this. They know at the time that those youngsters are being forced a the time to participate. Many gay youth have attempted suicide after being forced into these programs and failing to 'change' their sexuality. The fact that these groups exist and encourage people to hate themselves for how God created them is in itself wrong. God is love, not hate, he does not make junk, and the only reason that people have a desire to change something that is unchangeable, is because society makes them feel like something is wrong with them. These groups perpetuate this. You need to read "Anything But Straight" a biography of the hate group EXODUS and how their lead spokesman who claimed to be 'changed' to heterosexuality was found cruising at the gay bars. These groups perpetuate hating of oneself. That is why they are listed in many states as hate groups, like the KKK. By your logic how can we think the KKK is wrong when they only want to protect the rights of white people? After all, they just wait for others to join them when they feel their rights as white people are being infringed upon! 

However, I do agree, Chick-a-fil should have a right to state their opinion, the Constitution guarantees this and I stand behind their right to do so. I also stand behind the right of others to boycott, and for them to lose money because people don't want anything to do with their homophobic bullshit.

That is all......


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

Crono91 said:


> However I will say, I miss your last Avatar. Everytime I see this one I'm all ":shocked: she's peering into my soullllllllll!" xD Although, I'm sure you were going for that


I was feeling a bit more Scarlett O'hara in Atlanta than Bellatrix Lestrange in Azkaban when I switched the avatars. The whole "I won't think about it today, I'll think about it tomorrow" mantra was really in high gear at that moment.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

killerB said:


> However, I do agree, Chick-a-fil should have a right to state their opinion, the Constitution guarantees this and I stand behind their right to do so. I also stand behind the right of others to boycott, and for them to lose money because people don't want anything to do with their homophobic bullshit.


This pretty much sums up my stance in the most brutally honest way possible. I've been trying Zaxby's for my chicken fix as of late, but the Zax Snacks really don't cut it for me like some Chick-Fil-A chicken nuggets (and Zaxby's charges for sauce to go with it!)


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## Antipode (Jul 8, 2012)

koalaroo said:


> This pretty much sums up my stance in the most brutally honest way possible. I've been trying Zaxby's for my chicken fix as of late, but the Zax Snacks really don't cut it for me like some Chick-Fil-A chicken nuggets (and Zaxby's charges for sauce to go with it!)


You should try the Zaxby-Club, or their hot wings; they are amazing!


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## 1stBass (Jul 26, 2012)

Kito said:


> My question is this, do you think children should be educated about it so they grow up with the knowledge that it's acceptable and normal?


Yes. It would also encourage kids to go outside "normal" gender norms; when you don't place so much of an emphasis on love being between a boy and a girl, I think, it allows them to not care so much about fitting into those boxes.


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

But, back to the OP and should sexual orientation be taught young? I would have to say, that tolerance needs to be taught young, the issue of sex itself does not need apply. 

No one actually has to say anything they just need to let it be known that children being raised in same sex homes have valid families also. During Mothers or Father Day, they need to be encouraged to make cards for BOTH parents. They need to be encouraged to talk about their families during sharing times in Kindergarden, and to bring their parents to school for "what does your parent do" day. Adults need to practice acceptance and show the children it's ok for this to be, it's not shameful and it's still a loving family. Children in same sex homes need to be able to talk about their parents in exactly the same way that kids from straight families talk about theirs. The children will learn tolerance if that is what is modeled. The best part? They will learn that being gay or lesbian is so much MORE that having sex with the same sex.


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## zethry (Nov 15, 2011)

My church (I'm a Unitarian Universalist) does a sex-education class called Our Whole Lives (aka "OWL"). There are several curricula--one for different age groups. It starts with the Kindergarten and first grade. That one's mostly just about bodies and families (including GLBT families and discussing about how all these are normal and loving). Then there are also OWL classes for 4-6th grade, 7-9th grade, 10-12th grade, YA (ages 18-35), and adult classes.

The 4-6th grade is mostly about puberty (both physical and emotional) Sexuality is again discussed. 

The description for the adult class says "Using values, communication skills and spirituality as starting points, this program explores sexuality issues for adults of all ages. Builds understanding of healthy sexual relationships, affirms diversity and helps participants accept and affirm their own sexuality throughout their lives. Suggests 12 workshops, plus introductory and concluding sessions, but adaptable for many formats."

Anyway, I think that sexuality should be discussed. We shouldn't assume that our kids are straight. My kids are going to have to Come Out to me--regardless of whether they are gay, straight, asexual, whatever. I think for other forms of sexuality to begin to be seen as normal and accepted in our society, we need to teach that they are (and live our lives demonstrating it as well). Children aren't born hating ; they learn it from society.


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## Ed S (Jul 27, 2012)

This is an interesting topic. I'm a straight male but have no problem with people who have a different sexual orientation than me. I also think that sex is just such a natural act like breathing, eating or sleeping. It's so normal, but we make it so so taboo it really bothers me that such a normal thing gets people so worked up. I have an 8 year old she asked me about boys who like boys I simply said some boys like boys and some girls like girls...simple as that. Many, very many, animals in the animal kingdom have some form of homosexual activity. National Geographic decided to explore this particular topic and got so much flack for it. It was an actual study of science; if its there its there. Its not society convincing the animals to explore homosexuality they just do it! We have come a long way in our society to be more accepting and I believe that is great but we still have such long way to go.


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

I've read that around age 6, children will take their parent's word on anything. They don't think for themselves, there's no critically thinking. If Papa said it, it must be true even when real events prove what their father said to be wrong. It's around 10 years old children start deciding things for themselves and can realise what goes together bit better.
So around this age is a prime time to either have your child accepting of others through example and talks OR just mess them up by swearing at your tv saying you hate "****" increasing the chances of them being homophobic perhaps.

Some parents don't even talk to their kids about sex and rely on a crappy education system to explain sexuality to them. Parents need to have real conversations about such things with their kids as to better prepare them when they're grown up.


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

koalaroo said:


> This pretty much sums up my stance in the most brutally honest way possible. I've been trying Zaxby's for my chicken fix as of late, but the Zax Snacks really don't cut it for me like some Chick-Fil-A chicken nuggets (and Zaxby's charges for sauce to go with it!)


I don't think people really expect to not have any dissent(at least not intelligent people) but to expect to be treated with respect and to have the same rights as anyone else. I don't care if Chick-a-fil likess or agree with the fact I am a lesbian, hell, I don't care or like their their religious views, but I would never dream of telling them they have no rights to say what they believe in. I would treat them with respect even though I would speak out against their religion. 

In fact, my youngest has a friend with Baptist parents, who are suprisingly very supportive of our family unit. They parent with the same rules as we do, and they have said that their religion says it's wrong to be gay. They also have said they can't believe that God would judge us when we love each other so much, our kids are obviously loved and wanted, and we are such good and caring parents. They have no problem with their child sleeping over or hanging out with our kids. They support us in public also. I think much of the problem is the fact people just don't know gay people and see us as some unknown danger. Once they know us, they see we are just like them, and they are ok with it.


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## Vaan (Dec 19, 2010)

If they ask me, i'll tell them ^_^.


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## zethry (Nov 15, 2011)

I agree with @Ed S. It's an interesting topic! (Sexuality and relationships are a couple of things that fascinate me. )
And I like the simple explanation for children. "Some boys like boys. Some girls like girls. Some like both. Love is love is love."


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## Hruberen (Jan 2, 2012)

My sister I think will turn out to be hetero as one day she asked if some girls like other girls and I said that yes they do, and some boys like boys, and that's ok. She wasn't to hot on liking another girl, but I hope I encouraged her that you don't have to hate gay people, she was 9 when she asked this.


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

I'm not sure if I would use the word "sexual orientation" when discussing it' but I would use the word "love" and explain that love is gender blind; I haven't gotten much farther than that in my thought process, though I've never thought about how I would explain this to a child (I'm a long ways away from raising children on my own though, so i'm not exactly pressuring myself). 

I do know I WILL explain it, though. Sexuality wasn't really explained to me; and the first time I ever had someone come out to me, I was quite startled, and kind of wondered what happened to make them "decide" their sexuality. I've come to find, this is the way A LOT of people, who haven't been exposed to the idea of sexuality react when someone comes out- There are a lot of people that seem to think being anything other than heterosexual takes this "process"- needless to say, sexuality isn't a "process" it's something organic and natural- now, becoming comfortable in your sexuality and actually coming out; THAT'S a process; I don't see anything with helping a child understand that.

I think explaining sexual orientation, in some capacity, would help a lot of people understand and may even make coming out to others, a little less awkward.


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## disasterbunny (Jul 2, 2012)

killerB said:


> Sexual Orientation has nothing to do with sex, and everything to do with who your heart loves.


If you love somebody... Do you really need any kind of orientation?


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

Since my daughter could talk, her father and I always worded things in regards to the birds and the bees with "If you love a woman or a man...." We never assumed her sexual orientation and made sure she always felt free to be whatever she eventually revealed herself to be. 

I have a ton of gay and lesbian friends and I've seen their struggles with home life. I was determined a child of mine would always feel accepted for who she is and who would also be tolerant of other people who are different from her. _"Focus on the bridges, not the chasms"_ is a fundamental in which I raised her.

I believe a child should be taught values by parents. If your values include tolerance and acceptance, go ahead and start it early but make it age appropriate.

I want my daughter to get the information from me, not the bathroom wall, not through a traumatic experience, and not through stupid people.


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## Persephone (Nov 14, 2009)

disasterbunny said:


> If they are too young to know what sex is i don't really see the point...


We don't always have to talk about sex, and I dont' think parents teach them that boyfriends and girlfriends have sex, specifically. It is sufficient for the kids that a boy and a girl _like_ each other, and so it should be for explaining homosexual relations.


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## Aqualung (Nov 21, 2009)

I didn't even know what homosexuality was until I was around 17. I'm from long ago, a small town with no internet. Limited information. Everything I knew about sex was from friends who told me. I asked my parents questions & was basically told "Don't ask me that dirty stuff! You're filthy! Say you're sorry!" Guilt, shame, pain, confusion. I would never do that to my kids, if I had kids. Around 10-12 or so I'd tell them some people like the opposite sex, some people like the same sex. I would tell them some people are judged & hated for their choices but do not judge or hate anyone & resist peer pressure to do so.


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## Fallen Nocturne (May 13, 2012)

Kito said:


> I've heard someone say that it's evolution's way of countering over-population. It sounds ridiculous but somewhat believable at the same time.


I don't get that, to be honest. That theory makes the rather odd assumption that DNA is both sentient and aware of current social issues. You could certainly argue that a larger strictly gay population would reduce birth rates and reduce the problems of over population, but evolution doesn't really work that way. Evolution doesn't give a damn about the future, it cares exclusively about genetic variants which do better job of surviving and producing further copies of itself. It doesn't care about what is good for a species, how can it? Being exclusively homosexual doesn't lend itself to producing further copies of the gay variation, or further copies at all. There isn't really an imminent threat of over-population to justify evolution favoring homosexuality, especially not to the extent of 1 in 20 (?) men being gay; at least not in more developed countries.

No, nature has other ways of dealing with over population. Starvation, disease, war, those are more nature's style.

To answer the initial question, absolutely. Prejudice evolves from ignorance. Ignorance leads to fear. Fear leads to hate. Etc.

(I'm not an expert on biology. The above post was written on a fairly basic grasp of evolution. If I'm wrong... I'm wrong)


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## Fallen Nocturne (May 13, 2012)

Double Post. Ignore me...


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

Fallen Nocturne said:


> I don't get that, to be honest. That theory makes the rather odd assumption that DNA is both sentient and aware of current social issues.


That theory does no such thing. I'll simplify it a bit, I suppose.

Overpopulation (too much of a given population in a limited area or with limited resources) could cause stressors that change the uterine conditions during pregnancy. One of these stressors could be multiparous (having multiple children) condition of the mother. This doesn't imply that DNA is sentient. It merely means that over time, some sort of stopgap measure for population control has evolved accidentally within the species. Evolution is accidental, but sometimes it does receive a bit of a push.

Now you'd have to decide what sort of a push it received (i.e., bottlenecking at some point.)


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## Hrothgarsdad (Mar 29, 2012)

Some kids will become lgbt adults - they should have role models like their peers who will become straight adults.


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## Eerie (Feb 9, 2011)

I think with my daughter (who is six) it happened like this.

News is on - it also shows two men kissing

daughter - "mom, those men are kissing?"

me - "yep"

daughter - "why are they kissing?"

me - "they love each other" 

daughter - "oh, do ladies kiss ladies?"

me - "some do" 

daughter - "oh"

She didn't see it as anything strange after that. I don't think she saw it as strange in the first place, just curious. She knows that love doesn't have anything to do with gender. But she doesn't care too much for all that stuff, cooties and all. *shrugs* I just answer the questions she has. It's sort of like when she asked me how babies come out. After I told her she decided she didn't want to know anything else about that. :tongue:


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## Mamaoftwo (Apr 18, 2012)

Yes.

I have a lesbian aunt who is in a committed relationship. So, the subject has come up with my 8 year old. I was very matter of fact about it - after all we haven't exactly had "that talk" yet. When she innocently asked about it, I simply said that many relationships have a man and a woman, but sometimes men like men and women like women. And it's perfectly ok. I then told her that as long as people are happy and share love, then what else should matter?

I didn't use labels, though.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

Mamaoftwo said:


> Yes.
> 
> I have a lesbian aunt who is in a committed relationship. So, the subject has come up with my 8 year old. I was very matter of fact about it - after all we haven't exactly had "that talk" yet. When she innocently asked about it, I simply said that many relationships have a man and a woman, but sometimes men like men and women like women. And it's perfectly ok. I then told her that as long as people are happy and share love, then what else should matter?
> 
> *I didn't use labels, though.*


Maybe this is just me, but I think what I bolded is really the important part of age appropriate explanations of human sexuality. They'll learn that "some men love men" and "some women love women", but you won't necessarily have to say "lesbian", "gay", "homosexual" or "bisexual". They'll learn the terms society places on people eventually, and if you've taught them that it's perfectly fine for women to love women or men to love men, they'll learn the terms without fear or hatred.


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## LQ9 (Jul 24, 2010)

disasterbunny said:


> If they are too young to know what sex is i don't really see the point...


(sorry if somebody has already said what I'm about to say)

Relationships are about a lot more than sex... any kid old enough to talk is old enough to know that people can love each other and get married. I think the best idea is to treat both gay and straight relationships as positive, normal things, and maybe when your child is older you can start talking about the political context of gay marriage, etc. And yeah, eventually the kid might want to know how gay people have sex... tell him to use his imagination (or just explain it to him, I guess).

A really positive thing I have seen is that people of my generation (I'm 18) seem to be much, much more accepting of non-heterosexual relationships, and more willing to consider gender to be fluid, than people of my parents' generation. Most of my friends have questioned their sexualities and are open about that--for us it seems like a natural part of growing up.

Obviously this thread is going to bring up the "homosexuality--normal or sinful?!" debate--I think it's fairly clear which point of view I represent.


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## LQ9 (Jul 24, 2010)

Mamaoftwo said:


> Yes.
> 
> I have a lesbian aunt who is in a committed relationship. So, the subject has come up with my 8 year old. I was very matter of fact about it - after all we haven't exactly had "that talk" yet. When she innocently asked about it, I simply said that many relationships have a man and a woman, but sometimes men like men and women like women. And it's perfectly ok. I then told her that as long as people are happy and share love, then what else should matter?
> 
> I didn't use labels, though.


That's awesome. You sound like a wonderful parent!

Edit: Now I see a lot of similar stories in this thread... I'm sure you guys are wonderful parents, too roud:


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

Forgive me, but I am going to start off being a little blunt.

If you don't take any issue with homosexuality, then why is this even a debate? 

The majority of society broadcasts boy-girl dynamics everywhere. From friendships, to dating, to marriage, to gender roles etc, almost everything in society says you will end up in a boy-girl relationship whereas your best friend will be the same sex as you. There is nothing preventing a child from receiving these messages until they are of "appropriate age". They will come across these messages since the second they are born, so if you wish to foster an open view on homosexuality then you must employ same-sex rhetoric from the very beginning. Of course, this is not needed, but I see no reason why we shouldn't talk about these things if we find them just as acceptable as heterosexuality. I mean that basically creates a marginalized perception homosexuality since it is the "other" or alternative" way of life. This it not the case. It just is.

As for when you should talk to your child about sex... Well, I haven't thought specific ages or anything like that, however I do believe in open sex education in our school systems from the moment it is relevant (puberty). I back up this opinion with the appearance that most conservatives states in the US that frown upon sex education and promote abstinence seem to have higher rates of teen pregnancy and other related issues. Though, this is a hard thing to figure flat out because some of the more liberal states are also some of the more affluent states. Poverty is linked to teen pregnancy especially in the sense that a lot of times teens in small towns don't have a lot to keep them busy. Sex then becomes the activity of choice to alleviate their boredom. Regardless, I am still under the impression sex education helps children because sex is a natural drive. It's going to be there whether or not you teach it. The concept of safe sex, however, is not natural and must be taught. 

Though when we get down to it, sex (as in sexual intercourse) has nothing to do with sexual orientation. It didn't matter how many girls I might have been attracted to or aroused by in high school, none of that made me question my perceived heterosexuality. Such things can be rationalized by recognizing the hyper-sexualized presentation of women in the media and because one can appreciate the "aesthetic value" of another without sexual attraction. It wasn't until I fell in love with a girl, until my heart started to bleed, that I went, "Oh, wait. I know I am attracted to guys, but why then am I in love with this girl. So madly and so deeply? Hmm, well. I guess I am bisexual?"

Furthermore, the majority of the society tells kids about boy-girl dynamics without mentioning sex in the first place. So, of course the same notion can apply to boy-boy dynamics or girl-girl dynamics because there is nothing wrong about these dynamics.

To wrap up my post...

If you don't introduce these concepts to yours kids early on (whether directly or indirectly) then you are risking your kid questioning themselves or denying their nature when they start to fall for the same-sex. That can start a slippery slope into mental turmoil. It may not happen but it can, and there is no good reason why you shouldn't tell your kids these things unless you thinking being gay is wrong. And honestly, I will take issue with people who teach kids homosexuality is wrong. It's detrimental to both the individual and the society to do that. Though, I also take the stance that people aren't in fact entitled to their opinions. We have the allowance to possess whatever opinion we please, but that doesn't mean that we are entitled to it. That's just another convoluted slippery slope waiting to happen as well.

Edit: I also had something to say about "evolution" but I didn't realize the hour was so late. Let me just leave you with this: evolution is not a mechanism for perfecting species or ensuring their survival; it is merely the process of change a species goes through due to either pressure from its environment, particular breeding, or gene mutation. Any argument about "counter-evolutionary benefits" is automatically negated in my eyes.


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## Fallen Nocturne (May 13, 2012)

koalaroo said:


> That theory does no such thing. I'll simplify it a bit, I suppose.
> 
> Overpopulation (too much of a given population in a limited area or with limited resources) could cause stressors that change the uterine conditions during pregnancy. One of these stressors could be multiparous (having multiple children) condition of the mother. This doesn't imply that DNA is sentient. It merely means that over time, some sort of stopgap measure for population control has evolved accidentally within the species. Evolution is accidental, but sometimes it does receive a bit of a push.
> 
> Now you'd have to decide what sort of a push it received (i.e., bottlenecking at some point.)


So you're saying that mothers are evolving to produce gay children for population control rather than the supposed gay gene itself being favored? I know that's probably the worst possible way of phrasing it, but that's the general idea? I guess that would work with this theory I heard before about a mothers body considering a male a foreign object, and gets better at feminizing the male fetus with each subsequent child. I could see how that could cope with over-population. The one thing I still don't quite understand is how the threat of Over-Population is prominent and direct enough to result in that.


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## Kito (Jan 6, 2012)

Yeah I think labels do a lot of damage. Kids at my school started using gay as an insult as early as 8 years old, none of them knew what it meant but they figured it was something bad. So when I realised the concept of being gay in my early teens, my mind immediately viewed it as something bad. Cue huge denial phase.


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## Mamaoftwo (Apr 18, 2012)

LQ9 said:


> That's awesome. You sound like a wonderful parent!


Awww. Thanks!


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

Fallen Nocturne said:


> So you're saying that mothers are evolving to produce gay children for population control rather than the supposed gay gene itself being favored? I know that's probably the worst possible way of phrasing it, but that's the general idea? I guess that would work with this theory I heard before about a mothers body considering a male a foreign object, and gets better at feminizing the male fetus with each subsequent child. I could see how that could cope with over-population. The one thing I still don't quite understand is how the threat of Over-Population is prominent and direct enough to result in that.


I'm not saying one thing or the other, I'm merely postulating on the subject in a roughly theoretical manner. Overpopulation isn't just a social issue as you make it out to be; it's an actual biological issue for species if too many individuals are in one place. If too many individuals of a species are in one place, they can strain the resources. We weren't always a sedentary species with mass, corporate agriculture for the staple of food production.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

@Fallen Nocturne, I just remembered something that may help you understand what @koalaroo is getting at. 

Have you ever noticed how the shorter a species lifespan the offspring the more likely they are to have and the higher frequency they have them? This is part of a natural way to keep populations stabilized. Of course, there are other factors in reproduction. Turtles live for a mighty long time, but they lay multiple eggs. However, most species that lay eggs do so in high numbers or at a high frequency because it is more likely eggs will become destoryed than say a a baby bear inside its mother. 

It's why predators and prey have such a dynamic relationship. Take the wolves they removed from the Rocky Mountain National Park in Colorado several years ago. The deer and elk populations rapidly grew after their primary predator was eliminated. They started to overpopulate killing off too many bushes, plants, etc and getting sick due to the increased size of herds and "sanitary conditions" which is defined differently for deer than humans. 

Koalaroo's theory is not necessarily absurd. 

If you ask me about evolution though, I will cite the above as an effort to prove it's not the end all, be all of our existence. Sometimes extraneous traits evolve for no reason. However, I do have a friend who believes homosexuality can build attachment and relationships and brig happiness. Isn't that valuable to a species survival? I just don't like talking like this because it oversimplifies the matter.


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## Mendi the ISFJ (Jul 28, 2011)

to give homosexuality as an option for small children seems like a bad choice when we are trying to continue the human race. Yes that statement reads as unfair and maybe even homophobic, but let me explain: children are sooo influential. Im not saying that simply telling them they can be gay will make them gay when they are grown, but it could influence them to experiment when they would normally not have. It is also introducing sex at a young age. Kids dont know what being a "boyfriend" or "girlfriend" entails at that age, they just think of holding hands or being married. Talking about the differences in hetero and **** sexualities are going to lead to questions of how sex works. Kids play house at 5 yrs old maybe even younger and i dont think its appropriate to discuss sex at such a young age. Wait a couple of years. If you decide not to wait a couple of years and you feel you HAVE to bring this up, make sure to tell them that only hetero couples can give birth.


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> to give homosexuality as an option for small children seems like a bad choice when we are trying to continue the human race. Yes that statement reads as unfair and maybe even homophobic, but let me explain: children are sooo influential. Im not saying that simply telling them they can be gay will make them gay when they are grown, but it could influence them to experiment when they would normally not have. It is also introducing sex at a young age. Kids dont know what being a "boyfriend" or "girlfriend" entails at that age, they just think of holding hands or being married. Talking about the differences in hetero and **** sexualities are going to lead to questions of how sex works. Kids play house at 5 yrs old maybe even younger and i dont think its appropriate to discuss sex at such a young age. Wait a couple of years. If you decide not to wait a couple of years and you feel you HAVE to bring this up, make sure to tell them that only hetero couples can give birth.


Hetero couples aren't the only ones who can give birth- There are actually plenty of hetero couples who have problems conceiving children, and have to look at alternatives. There are also plenty of single people who would like to have children; not to mention, a lot of children who were unwanted and need homes. I, personally, think talking about the survival of the human race to a child is terribly unfair; that would be a lot of weight to put on their shoulders- And I wouldn't want my child to think that I would judge them for falling in love with someone they knew wouldn't be able to have children with.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> to give homosexuality as an option for small children seems like a bad choice when we are trying to continue the human race. Yes that statement reads as unfair and maybe even homophobic, but let me explain: children are sooo influential. Im not saying that simply telling them they can be gay will make them gay when they are grown, but it could influence them to experiment when they would normally not have. It is also introducing sex at a young age. Kids dont know what being a "boyfriend" or "girlfriend" entails at that age, they just think of holding hands or being married. Talking about the differences in hetero and **** sexualities are going to lead to questions of how sex works. Kids play house at 5 yrs old maybe even younger and i dont think its appropriate to discuss sex at such a young age. Wait a couple of years. If you decide not to wait a couple of years and you feel you HAVE to bring this up, make sure to tell them that only hetero couples can give birth.


I think this might be a relevant point to make if the human race was on the verge on extinction. It's not, by far. However, I believe if we ever reach that point, then people will step up to do their "human duty" and procreate. However as it has been stated, I could be love with a girl as a lesbian and still have sex with a guy for the purpose of childrearing. The homosexual mindframe is not confining or restrictive. I think most homophobes (not saying you are one but as example) can't imagine this because how they are. It's unfortunate they can't imagine others unlike themselves. 

Again since this seems to be ignore time and time again, as a bisexual (taking myself as an example) I do have the desire to sleep with either sex (given attraction) however I am not a promiscuous person. I don't even care much about sex beyond its euphoric nature. What truly defines me as a bisexual is the fact that my heart can love either sex with an undying passion. I hate it when people such as conservative types boil homosexuality down to sex. Then when talking about their own romantic relationships they attempt to avoid the subject and emphasis the more spirtual aspects. It's inconsisent. Loving relationships can occur between anyone without sex.


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## KateMarie999 (Dec 20, 2011)

My parents are heterosexual and we don't have any gay relatives at all. So, growing up, I didn't really think about the possibility that someone would fall in love with the same sex. I always assumed everyone was attracted to the opposite sex. When I found out about homosexuality, it was a very new topic and I don't really remember what I thought about it. My parents are Christian and they believe it's wrong. Of course saying that is going to make everyone flame me for being brought up in a "homophobic" household.

I choose not to divulge my own views on homosexuality because they're controversial and I don't feel like getting into an argument (so please respect my freedom of speech and not freak out at me) but I personally have never had any same-sex attraction so I don't really have to think about it. I don't think I'd personally tell my kids about homosexuality until they're old enough to be able to handle the "talk" (so around 11 or 12). Since most of the world is heterosexual (I think I read that only 3% of the population is homosexual) it's not a topic I feel is necessary to bring up.


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> to give homosexuality as an option for small children seems like a bad choice when we are trying to continue the human race. Yes that statement reads as unfair and maybe even homophobic, but let me explain: children are sooo influential. Im not saying that simply telling them they can be gay will make them gay when they are grown, but it could influence them to experiment when they would normally not have.



I don't understand how telling a child that some boys love boys and some girls love girls and it's ok, is giving them an option. Either you are LGBT or not. There is no option, you don't get to choose, you just are. The only thing you are doing with that statement is preparing them for the real world and what they will see out there, or allowing them to realize that you will accept them and love them no matter what.


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## Mendi the ISFJ (Jul 28, 2011)

Kito said:


> Sorry for the double post...
> 
> Many people think they're straight but later realise they're not. I think this comes from the expectation that you're straight and believing you must be, because that's the norm. You might think "oh, I'm just not as sexual as everybody else." But later on you'll eventually realise you were attracted to the same sex all along. Many don't realise the possibility. So it's not making a choice, it's more like realising what you truly were all along.


i just dont understand how you could not know... assuming what so many people are saying that they were born this way... how would you not know you were attracted to the same sex or both sexes if you surely are around both males and females all your life.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> im thinking more of the girls playing bi so they can get the attention Daddy never gave them.


Good. I see you highly value any attempt to actually discuss these things and lay out rational arguments to th nature of world. 

If you can point fallacies in my words, then please enlighten me. Not sarcastic about that. I enter in these forums to explore logic, not to blindly swing my opinion in the air. 

But, you're attack is baseless because why would I look towards women if Daddy didn't give me enough attention? Please stay from pop, pseudo-psychology. 

My words, however are base in a possible dynamic. You didn't answer me whether you have chosen who you fall in love with. Answer that, claim that you have chosen your attractions, and perhaps I will reevaluate sexuality. 

As to your response to Kito...

It is possible. From mental schemas to repressed feelings to behavioral conditioning, there are dozens of psychological theories to back this assertion up. Furthermore for me, the attraction was always there. I just rationalized/denied it due to the pressure to be straight. 

However since you don't seem to even read or weigh my words, this is more than likely going to be my last response. I prefer to discuss things with people who have a similar desire for understanding and rationality. Otherwise, I see no point.


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## Mendi the ISFJ (Jul 28, 2011)

saintless said:


> Good. I see you highly value any attempt to actually discuss these things and lay out rational arguments to th nature of world.
> 
> If you can point fallacies in my words, then please enlighten me. Not sarcastic about that. I enter in these forums to explore logic, not to blindly swing my opinion in the air.
> 
> ...


i wasnt attacking you, i dont know your situation. I do believe that *some* bisexuals are following a fad to feel like a part of the in crowd. You dont have to agree with that, i can see why you would not want to. Im not trying to make light of what many LGBT people are going through. I dont particularly like that you are acting as if im some racist on a minority website though. Im not here to stir up problems i am just giving my opinion on the topic at hand.


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## Mendi the ISFJ (Jul 28, 2011)

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> i wasnt attacking you, i dont know your situation. I do believe that *some* bisexuals are following a fad to feel like a part of the in crowd. You dont have to agree with that, i can see why you would not want to. Im not trying to make light of what many LGBT people are going through. I dont particularly like that you are acting as if im some racist on a minority website though. Im not here to stir up problems i am just giving my opinion on the topic at hand.





> You didn't answer me whether you have chosen who you fall in love with. Answer that, claim that you have chosen your attractions, and perhaps I will reevaluate sexuality.


i chose the person i fell in love with yes.


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## Curiously (Nov 7, 2011)

I wouldn't necessarily prescribe how others raise their kids, but for me, I'd surely teach my kids that sexuality is not fixed in hetereosexual norms. Mind you, I don't want children in all reality and this is purely hypothetical on my end, but in terms of answering the OP, I wouldn't hesitate to teach my kids the importance of realizing that different partnerships and ways of loving exist in this world.


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> i just dont understand how you could not know... assuming what so many people are saying that they were born this way... how would you not know you were attracted to the same sex or both sexes if you surely are around both males and females all your life.


Because we are socialized that it is wrong to be anything but heterosexual. Everything around us is heterosexual, PDA of couples holding hands are straight, t.v shows are mostly straight characters, we are assumed to be straight, almost all love stories and heroes are straight. It is considered the norm, and we raised in a straight society that allows us to believe that we can be NOTHING else. We may suspect, we may know or we may have decided to ignore the feelings of attraction to the same sex because we are so afraid to acknowledge it. Think on the below:

Many people still feel that being gay is mentally ill, or because of as you stated 'daddy issues' or 'mommy issues'

Is was not until the mid to late 70's that the DSMV even took homosexuality off the disorder list

Many religions not only condemn it, but go out of their way to kick people out of their church services, tell us we will go to Hell or otherwise shame us for our feelings.

Often, kids are bullied when it becomes known they have same sex attractions

We often lose friends, family or our jobs when we let it be known we are gay

We have no real rights, can't get married, are accused of molesting children with no back up proof, accused of not being good parents, of recruiting children to our 'lifestyle' and all other types of horrible things.

We are hated and blamed for every ill of society and are targeted for being as we are

We are told we should and can change if we a) wanted to b) prayed hard enough or 3) had it raped or beaten out of us.

Tell me again why I would want to even ever recognize that I am gay, or could possibly be gay? It is often real fear that keeps our brains from wrapping around the idea that we are or could be gay. We refuse to accept ourselves as gay humans, because we are normal, not the deranged monsters others would have us believe. So, we hide our feelings and thoughts in a tiny corner in back of our minds and hope it all goes away............we try to believe that it's a stage so hey, we're really straight!

I hope this helps to explain somewhat. :happy:


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

killerB said:


> Because we are socialized that it is wrong to be anything but heterosexual. Everything around us is heterosexual, PDA of couples holding hands are straight, t.v shows are mostly straight characters, we are assumed to be straight, almost all love stories and heroes are straight. It is considered the norm, and we raised in a straight society that allows us to believe that we can be NOTHING else. We may suspect, we may know or we may have decided to ignore the feelings of attraction to the same sex because we are so afraid to acknowledge it. Think on the below:
> 
> Many people still feel that being gay is mentally ill, or because of as you stated 'daddy issues' or 'mommy issues'
> 
> ...


Could NOT have said it better-Thank you.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> i chose the person i fell in love with yes.


To be clear, I felt like the tacky, "daddy issue" was an attack. Otherwise, I am happy to discuss these things. 

However, I will assert that your actions will result in marginalizing non-heterosexual people which is a form of discrimination/prejudice. It's also harmful. I believe in letting people live whatever life they choose as long as it foes not do others undue harm. I do attempt to encourage others not to harm themselves, but if they are wish it... then sadly so be it. That's one of the many ways in which I approach life. 

Would care to elaborate how you choose your lover? I swear that is a foreign concept to me. I don't even see evidence for it in the heteronormative media. 

Yet, let me first explain what I mean by "choice". 

I am under the impression we don't even get to choose the colors we like or the foods or the music and so on. I could tell you I like such and such song for the lyrics or the guitar melody but I am not capable of explainig that beyond the fact than it just sounds sweet. Therefore, I didn't truly, consciously choose what music I like. I can force myself to like music such as dubstep sice it's supposedly cool. I can steer myself away from pop music because it's "generic". However, I do enjoy a few pop songs and dubstep does nothing for more. 

Sexuality/love can be handle in the same way by the human brain.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

double post... -__-


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## Shinji Mimura (Aug 1, 2012)

Yes.

I mean, kids probably won't be addressing their orientation until late elementary-early middle school, but yeah, it's handy to know. I've had a few friends who've known they were bisexual since their early childhood, and I've known I was heterosexual since I was about 4, but I know probably quadruple that many people who spent most of their life confused, and probably still are XD

So, yeah. Kids need to know about orientation, as well as sex.


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## Kito (Jan 6, 2012)

killerB said:


> We are told we should and can change if we a) wanted to b) prayed hard enough or 3) had it raped or beaten out of us.


I once read a story about a boy who knew he was gay from the age of 12 or so, and when he told the priest of his church, he was simply told he had to pray to Jesus and it'd be all better.

He prayed once. It didn't change.
He prayed twice. Still no change.

He asked Jesus over and over again to be 'cured' but his attraction remained the same. It's such a shame people have to find out like that.

I think what enrages me more is that people shun homosexuality, because a FREAKING BOOK TOLD THEM TO. I don't usually hate on religion at all and am very accepting of people's beliefs, but I just don't understand why some religious people won't believe it's inborn/not changeable no matter how much we prove it to them, but believe one line from a book written who knows how many years ago.


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## Mendi the ISFJ (Jul 28, 2011)

saintless said:


> To be clear, I felt like the tacky, "daddy issue" was an attack. Otherwise, I am happy to discuss these things.
> 
> However, I will assert that your actions will result in marginalizing non-heterosexual people which is a form of discrimination/prejudice. It's also harmful. I believe in letting people live whatever life they choose as long as it foes not do others undue harm. I do attempt to encourage others not to harm themselves, but if they are wish it... then sadly so be it. That's one of the many ways in which I approach life.
> 
> ...


i think that maybe we are getting stuck at what constitutes a choice and i was getting defensive because you were challenging my opinion and you were getting defensive because i was saying things you found insulting. Im really not trying to insult you i just think that there are different situations and i have different theories about things that i have mulled over. Basically when i say i have a choice about who to be with it goes like this in my head:

I can do whatever i want. So if i choose to i could be with a woman, i could see the benefits in that, women are soft and more emotional, women i associate with are understanding and proactive. Some women are beautiful and sweet. If i chose to i could enter into a sexual relationship with a woman. I can weigh the pros and cons of that. I could have a emotional connection with a woman if i chose to, but i think where i choose not to is that the actual sexual actions dont appeal to me. Thats not to say that i couldnt try it and maybe even enjoy it at some point. Thats the thing. They say everyone experiments in college. Lets say they didnt experiment. Would some people that tried being with the same sex and enjoyed it (initially out of curiosity and not sexual desire) not choose to be considered gay in the future? Again, i believe there are some gay people that are or believe strongly that they are born that way. That you can tell at a young age they are either stronger in a certain hormone or portray characteristics commonly used by the opposite sex. Then there are the people who have come out that have had a terrible tragedy happen in their young lives, like sexual abuse or the death of a parent. If you were raped, would it be understandable that you might trust another female more because of this and then enter into a sexual relationship? Could the lack of a parent understandably make you lose the connection with the influence they would normally bring? When i say i choose my lover, its because i chose him out of all the people available to me at the time. I could do anything, i suppose. 

Im aware that these are not popular ideas/thoughts. But im just being honest about what goes through my mind. The idea of love is so subjective that some people dont believe it exists at all, yet its being used as the basis for being non-heterosexual. The idea of loving the same sex or both sexes, which honestly would make it easier to find a mate, doubling your odds. 

I hope that clears some stuff up and doesnt just make people mad at me.


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## Mendi the ISFJ (Jul 28, 2011)

Kito said:


> I once read a story about a boy who knew he was gay from the age of 12 or so, and when he told the priest of his church, he was simply told he had to pray to Jesus and it'd be all better.
> 
> He prayed once. It didn't change.
> He prayed twice. Still no change.
> ...


im not religious at all but isnt it sodomy that they have an issue with because of particular stories in the bible? i wonder what the issue with lesbians would be.


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## Kito (Jan 6, 2012)

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> im not religious at all but isnt it sodomy that they have an issue with because of particular stories in the bible? i wonder what the issue with lesbians would be.


Yeah, most churches aren't bothered about homosexuality, they just don't like homosexual acts. The Bible never mentions lesbians, does it? It'd be interesting to hear what church leaders think about them.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

@Mendi the ISFJ - I am not insulted by this conversation. I am not personally offended. I tend to write with strong diction, but if I sound annoyed it's because you don't seem to be reading half of what I say. 'Tis all. 

Sexuality is not fixed. It's fluid and dynamic. I don't believe when someone is gay that they might never have a heterosexual experience. If they do and decide they like it, then they're probably bisexual. If they don't like it, then they're gay. 

I will again liken this to music. Right now in my life, I am bit of a metalhead, but I haven't always enjoyed the music. I used to love pop-punk bands, but they now make me want to go *facepalm*. I have always enjoyed punk rock though. I am starting to enjoy folk music and indie and indie bands. My musical taste doesn't define who I am. It changes. Parts are steadfast such that I love high-energy music, but it's not a rule. I can also appreciate softer more gentle music. Some songs I used to love I can't stand anymore because they remind me of something bad like an ex. Some songs like Carly Rae Jepsen's Call Me Maybe used to drive me nuts and give me a surreal feeling, but now I enjoy the song (more or less) as it reminds me of summer and my summer crush (she likes the song). 

Sexuality can parallel such dynamics, but that doesn't undermine sexuality. In m opinion, it gives it life. 

Again, we can make conscious choices. I recognize this. I could choose to live a "heterosexual lifestyle". It's easier for me than say a lesbian because I am not putt off by male genitalia (like some people may be putt of by hip-hop music). However, that wouldn't stop me from beig bisexual. There is no license or certificate that I have that makes me bi except my capacity to enjoy either sex. It also wouldn't stop my heart from loving girls, particularly the one I did fall in love with. 

That's the crux of the matter. Who I am cannot be changed. Doesn't it make the most sense to therefore allow people to be as they wish no matter? If you wish for that, then you can't restrict your child's sexuality/heart. @killerB wonderfully explained this in the last post. 

But, what would it matter if t was a choice? How does that invalidate the lifestyle choice? I don't understand why people would ever want to limit expressions of love. The more the merrier. 

If you say it's because some bisexuals can be attention whores, I would say attention whores will be so no matter their sexuality.


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## Mendi the ISFJ (Jul 28, 2011)

saintless said:


> @_Mendi the ISFJ_ - I am not insulted by this conversation. I am not personally offended. I tend to write with strong diction, but if I sound annoyed it's because you don't seem to be reading half of what I say. 'Tis all.
> 
> Sexuality is not fixed. It's fluid and dynamic. I don't believe when someone is gay that they might never have a heterosexual experience. If they do and decide they like it, then they're probably bisexual. If they don't like it, then they're gay.
> 
> ...


i get what you are saying, but my point is not to *tell *children what be. A talk of acceptance in sexuality, in my opinion, should wait until you can have a real talk about sexuality. Kids will get the idea that some men are in love with or marry men, some women are with women, just from everyday life. They are more observant than you'd think. If the child comes to you and asks about it i dont see a problem with explaining very vague explanations of this and a reassurance that you will love them no matter what, but i dont think you should bring up the topic or truly explain sexuality until much later. Let children be children as long as they can be. 

It also seems that being heterosexual is likened to being Caucasian. (bear with my methaphor) If you mix with any other race your offspring are no longer Caucasian. If you are exploring your sexuality with the same sex you are no longer heterosexual. I didnt place these limitations, they are already out there. Definitions themselves limit people, but they also help us understand and describe situations.


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## sleepyhead (Nov 14, 2011)

Kito said:


> My question is this, do you think children should be educated about it so they grow up with the knowledge that it's acceptable and normal? While it'd probably solve a lot of problems I can see it causing some too.


I do and I plan to. With my own kids, I plan to have children's books all sorts of different families, including adopted, gay, straight, foster, divorced, and kids being raised by extended families. I think it's really important to show kids there are lots of "normals" out there, and there's really no wrong way to be. Kids have completely open minds and are blank slates. They're going to be inundated with a plethora of images of straight, white, middle-class families and its important to me they know that's not the only way to be.

I have a 9 year old niece and both her parents have gay friends, so it was really a non-issue when she was quite young. From a very early age she was around people who were in same-sex relationships so it was never a question and not really anything she needed to be taught - she saw different kinds of relationships from birth on and so it became normal to her.

In the last year I had a very close friend come out as trans and begin transitioning from male to female. My best friend is married to this person, and my niece knows both these friends quite well, so a couple of months ago I let her know that S's husband was now S's wife. She was pretty taken aback at first but then she just asked a lot of questions and thought it was, and I quote, "neat". I agreed with her that it can all be pretty confusing and when I gave her the opportunity to ask me some more questions, she gladly took me up on it. I let her know that if she ever has any questions about it she can feel safe asking me. I didn't talk about sex at all (I mean, I talked about physical sex characteristics) and we just talked a bit about gender. I asked her how she knew she was a girl and she said "she just knows" and I asked her how she would feel if she felt exactly the same but was in a boy's body and she said it would make her unhappy. So I said that's what happened to my friend - and we now have the skills and technology available to make her inside self match up with her outside self. She asked how you would know if you're trans and I explained that it's just something you know - and then we talked about her own gender identity and was happy to say she knows she's a girl and she's happy being a girl. After that she just asked if she could see a picture of my friend as a woman, told me she looked really pretty, and then ran off to play. 

I had another friend come out as lesbian in the last year as well and I know for her it was a real struggle (she's 27 and only came out this year). Even though our group of friends is very open and accepting, it was extremely hard for her to come out and tell us. Her mom wasn't the most receptive at first and I know that was really tough for her. We can't assume kids are straight because many of them turn out to have a very fluid, changing, and evolving sexuality. I would never want my niece or my kids to feel like something was wrong with them because they feel the way they naturally feel and I wouldn't want them to feel like they have to hide from me. Whoever said their kids will have to come out to them as gay, straight, lesbian, bi, queer, asexual, non-identifying, etc had it right in my books. I plan to use very gender neutral language with my kids and give them the space to identify how they want to. That may involve a lot of experimentation and trying different things out, but I don't see that as a negative thing.

Having these discussions doesn't have to be a big deal and if you naturally insert these kind of issues into their learning (say with children's books that show a multitude of different family styles) then you never even really have to have a big separate discussion. It's already natural to them.

I think it's fairly important to introduce this stuff quite early because when I was in elementary school in grade 2 kids were having mock weddings at recess. My niece claimed to have a "boyfriend" when she was 6. Kids know something about this stuff from a very early age and letting them know there's no right way to be is important.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> i get what you are saying, but my point is not to *tell *children what be. A talk of acceptance in sexuality, in my opinion, should wait until you can have a real talk about sexuality. Kids will get the idea that some men are in love with or marry men, some women are with women, just from everyday life. They are more observant than you'd think. If the child comes to you and asks about it i dont see a problem with explaining very vague explanations of this and a reassurance that you will love them no matter what, but i dont think you should bring up the topic or truly explain sexuality until much later. Let children be children as long as they can be.
> 
> It also seems that being heterosexual is likened to being Caucasian. (bear with my methaphor) If you mix with any other race your offspring are no longer Caucasian. If you are exploring your sexuality with the same sex you are no longer heterosexual. I didnt place these limitations, they are already out there. Definitions themselves limit people, but they also help us understand and describe situations.


My point it that there is not enough evidence in the world that non-hetero people exist. Most people tend to treat it as hush-hush. I can actually an article somewhere that gives data on how parents generally approach the matter. As a parent, you need to actively mention these things or child may grow up not knowing which can be detrimental. Also as I said before, these things can be introduced without even hinting at sex. So, there is no moral issue as I am concerned. 

Your latter post half is comparaing apples to oranges. If you want to argue the possible genetic components pf sexuality, then you might have a point. However experimentation in itself doesn't negate sexual orientation. I have already explaind this, but I can if I like.


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## Mendi the ISFJ (Jul 28, 2011)

saintless said:


> My point it that there is not enough evidence in the world that non-hetero people exist. Most people tend to treat it as hush-hush. I can actually an article somewhere that gives data on how parents generally approach the matter. As a parent, you need to actively mention these things or child may grow up not knowing which can be detrimental. Also as I said before, these things can be introduced without even hinting at sex. So, there is no moral issue as I am concerned.
> 
> Your latter post half is comparaing apples to oranges. If you want to argue the possible genetic components pf sexuality, then you might have a point. However experimentation in itself doesn't negate sexual orientation. I have already explaind this, but I can if I like.


i dont want to argue anything im ISFJ i dont like arguing or debates. You can have your opinion and i can have mine.


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> i dont want to argue anything im ISFJ i dont like arguing or debates. You can have your opinion and i can have mine.


We could have a discussion... though that sounds bit like an opt-out. I am weird though. I enjoy discussing things with people to figure out logical fallacies and more proper ways to approach life. Opinions are opinions, but I can't in good conscious not advise against possible detrimental effects on people.


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

sleepyhead said:


> I think it's fairly important to introduce this stuff quite early because when I was in elementary school in grade 2 kids were having mock weddings at recess. My niece claimed to have a "boyfriend" when she was 6. Kids know something about this stuff from a very early age and letting them know there's no right way to be is important.


Agreed! I had my first kiss when I was in Elementary School; I didn't see anything abnormal or weird about it, until the boy decided he wanted to stick his tongue in my mouth- which, I didn't approve of. I wanted to talk about it to someone, and did speak about what was happening and how I was feeling, but I was met with _"That's inappropriate discussion, we're not talking about that"_. I was too young to understand there was taboo around talking about kissing or relationships- it was happening, I wanted to talk about it and got shot down. 

It did give me a lot of conflicting feelings, and compounded my penchant for not reaching out to people and not talking about things.


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## Mendi the ISFJ (Jul 28, 2011)

saintless said:


> We could have a discussion... though that sounds bit like an opt-out. I am weird though. I enjoy discussing things with people to figure out logical fallacies and more proper ways to approach life. Opinions are opinions, but I can't in good conscious not advise against possible detrimental effects on people.


 i gotcha you are one of those people that like debates. I see you are also ennaegram 6, so that makes sense too.


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## Mendi the ISFJ (Jul 28, 2011)

voicetrocity said:


> Agreed! I had my first kiss when I was in Elementary School; I didn't see anything abnormal or weird about it, until the boy decided he wanted to stick his tongue in my mouth- which, I didn't approve of. I wanted to talk about it to someone, and did speak about what was happening and how I was feeling, but I was met with _"That's inappropriate discussion, we're not talking about that"_. I was too young to understand there was taboo around talking about kissing or relationships- it was happening, I wanted to talk about it and got shot down.
> 
> It did give me a lot of conflicting feelings, and compounded my penchant for not reaching out to people and not talking about things.


so are you suggesting we talk to kids about all aspects of sexuality (meaning kissing and touching etc) because even if u are heterosexual, you could not want to kiss some random boy on the playground.


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## sleepyhead (Nov 14, 2011)

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> so are you suggesting we talk to kids about all aspects of sexuality (meaning kissing and touching etc) because even if u are heterosexual, you could not want to kiss some random boy on the playground.


Forgive me if I'm wrong, @voicetrocity, but I think they're saying that _if_ kids bring this stuff up and want to talk about, then we should. This doesn't require having a big, detailed discussion about the act of sex, but being open to the kids feelings, questions, and concerns about _som__e _intimate aspects of relationships. When you just shut kids down with stuff like that, they tend to never want to try and bring it up again - I think it's extremely important to validate what a kid is feeling, even if it sometimes makes the adults uncomfortable.


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> so are you suggesting we talk to kids about all aspects of sexuality (meaning kissing and touching etc) because even if u are heterosexual, you could not want to kiss some random boy on the playground.


I'm not suggesting to sit down and have a talk about ALL aspects of sexuality. I'm saying; that even children in elementary school are curious. A child might hear from another child about sex, and ask a parent about it; or, as in my case, another child could want to kiss them and they might want someone to talk to about it. A child might find out about something before their parent has deemed it "appropriate"; and I think it does the child injustice to shut them down and not talk about it just because the parent isn't "ready". 

It's my belief that parents should start thinking about how they'll explain touching, kissing etc BEFORE their child is even in their life. I'm far, far away from having a child; but even I have a rough draft of what I'd say in my mind. 

Life isn't plannable and this world can be scary. To make a child feel like they can't talk to or confide in their parent does them no justice; for every good and harmless thing that is avoided there is one serious and dangerous thing that could go unmentioned. 

I'm not even sure what I wanted to hear from talking about my little elementary school kiss; but I'm pretty sure hearing that it was ok to feel like I didn't want to have someone's tongue in my mouth would have sufficed- But the reaction and the shame I was made to feel has stayed with me much longer than any intent I had. 



sleepyhead said:


> Forgive me if I'm wrong, @_voicetrocity_, but I think they're saying that _if_ kids bring this stuff up and want to talk about, then we should. This doesn't require having a big, detailed discussion about the act of sex, but being open to the kids feelings, questions, and concerns about _som__e _intimate aspects of relationships. When you just shut kids down with stuff like that, they tend to never want to try and bring it up again - I think it's extremely important to validate what a kid is feeling, even if it sometimes makes the adults uncomfortable.


No forgiveness needed; you got what I was saying. ^_^


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## LQ9 (Jul 24, 2010)

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> kids are just so stupid! and apparently its a fad to be bisexual (not saying it is for you) for girls right now. It makes them seem sexually appealing to men (ironically enough). I know there are many layers and levels of sexual attraction. I know that some people were born strongly feeling attracted to one sex or more, but i also think that kids make idiotic decisions especially at a young age. Have you seen on the news about girls dipping tampons in vodka to get drunk? What about adding salt to hand sanitizer and drinking it? i just think that IN TIME they will figure things out on their own without having to talk about sex so young. They will get the idea of other sexual orientations from the media and real life.


I might just be repeating what other people have said here, but I think the important point is that when talking about relationships and families to small children, sex does NOT need to come up.

Even extremely young children know about the structure of a family, which they probably assume from experience will be made up of two parents, male and female, and some number of children belonging to these parents. Sex, though obviously relevant to the creation of couples and families, is completely irrelevant to a small child's understanding of family structure. Explaining to children, when it comes up (which surely it eventually will) that two people of the same sex can love each other and raise children can be an entirely age-appropriate conversation without reference or relevance to sex.

If the child asks whether two people of the same sex can have kids, the parent can tell him/her that it doesn't work in the same way as with heterosexual couples, but yes, it is possible. That is both a truthful and, in my opinion, a perfectly appropriate thing to say. If the kid wants to know more, maybe the parent should consider whether they're old enough to know--otherwise, I'm sure whatever response they have in store to sidestep the "mama, how are babies made?" conversation should work all right.

As others have said: yes, a child raised in an environment that accepts homosexuality as normal might be more likely to act on any feelings of homosexual attraction than a child who knows gay people only as abnormal individuals who Mom and Dad don't talk about. But there's no reason why the first child would be more likely to explore sexually EARLIER than any other--or to try dipping tampons in vodka or ingesting hand sanitizer.

Additionally, the kid raised with knowledge, respect and understanding of LGBT people and issues will be the one to support any questioning peers. The kid who knows that it's normal to be gay will probably be the one to help put a stop to bullying or the use of slurs among his/her friends, which can happen even among very young children.


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## Mendi the ISFJ (Jul 28, 2011)

LQ9 said:


> But there's no reason why the first child would be more likely to explore sexually EARLIER than any other--or to try dipping tampons in vodka or ingesting hand sanitizer.


just so you know those were just examples of stupid trends. Im not suggesting they would be more likely to do these things. 

Also i think that many people are saying similar things: its ok to talk about it vaguely (as in not going into sex) if the child asks. The part were i think my opinion differs with some is that i dont think we should bring up the subject until they are at an age where i feel its time to talk about sex. 

I dont have any children and i doubt i will to be honest, but its important to me to add my 2 cents considering this because im not seeing anyone else taking this standpoint. Likely others who feel this way will keep it to themselves rather than risk offending or facing negativity. 

I think its good to teach acceptance (not just of sexuality) but there is plenty of time in their lives to discover who they are when they are mentally mature enough to do so.


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

Why not? I don't really believe in censoring.


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## yukionna (Jun 16, 2014)

whoever said that being bisexual for girls is just a fad, is probably a male. most of us aren't attracted to two genders for your entertainment, jackass. 

for the original question, I believe that we should teach about different sexual orientations from an early age because I've heard about asexual people thinking there was something wrong with them when they were a teenager. I guess this is why there's so much homophobia in our society too because most of us grew up thinking that straight people were "normal" and well surprise, it's not, I guess.


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## Kyora (Mar 17, 2013)

Well yes and no... If they ask then of course. If they don't, then I'll wait until they are at age to understand 
I'm a demi-sexual, I thought I was completely weird while in Highschool since everyone was telling me their sexual life and I didn't have one, I felt as thought I was not like the other and felt excluded a bit.


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## Philosophaser Song Boy (Jan 16, 2011)

I think if a child asks, then maybe... but sex should be left out until they are rounding near puberty, or coming of age.

I was never "taught" anything while growing up. No sex, politics, maybe religion was the only thing that was strongly hinted at. I seem pretty fine. Granted, I was taught at a very young age, through spanking, that I am not to grab/mess with other's private areas, male or female. This is also more of a rights thing than a sexual orientation thing, and what kid would know any better without SOME kind of lesson. Overall, my parents were very good at teaching me objective facts (boys have penises and girls have vginas) rather than (boys like vaginas and girls like penises).


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## Moya (May 22, 2012)

Philosophaser Song Boy said:


> objective facts (boys have penises and girls have vginas)


I wouldn't call this objective.

Why not teach children about the possibility of love between people of the same sex instead of making it about sex?


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## Devrim (Jan 26, 2013)

Nope I don't think so,
To heavy of a subject,
Maybe when they've hit 13 it would be better,
But before then I wouldn't want my kids learning anything about being sexual!

Not the time and place haha!


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## Squirrel (Jun 14, 2014)

Kito said:


> My question is this, do you think children should be educated about it so they grow up with the knowledge that it's acceptable and normal? While it'd probably solve a lot of problems I can see it causing some too.


No, I don't. In fact I think kids should be left out of it all completely. You may find homosexuality acceptable and "normal" but I for one do not and I know many believe the same as well. Parents should be responsible for dealing with this matter to their own kids and no one else.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

La Li Lu Le Lo said:


> Teaching a kid that some people like other people of the same gender "like mommy and daddy" is probably going to elicit some form of revulsion from them. I think it's taboo for a reason.


Nah you just think that because of your own experience. One of my relatives is a gay man and another family friend was lesbian. I understood that there were people "like that" by the time I was old enough to understand heterosexual sex, like elementary school age, seven or eight.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

I really don't think it would matter. Kids don't get their opinions on drugs, sex, etc. from teachers, parents, etc. lol. They get it from other kids. We are all taught drugs are bad, but we still do them. We are taught to be nice to each other, to be tolerant, but people still are mean to each other. etc. We know the right thing to do. I think it is being communicated properly. 

Plus, it's not gonna matter if you teach tolerance, if, when the kid gets home, his parents are gonna be bigots. I think home is more important than school, but you can't regulate parenting as much.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Paradox1987 said:


> Depends on how young. But in principle, I see no harm in explaining to a child that two men or women can love each other like "mum and dad". Any questions that arise from that can be dealt with sensitively, simply and accurately.
> 
> There are abject benefits to teaching kids about sex early. Not limited to:
> 
> ...


Yes, I agree. I understood that my relative liked boys in a child's manner, like I understood that people could like each other and want to date or get married, it's not like you have to be graphic about sex acts. My sex education started at home at age eight and it was fairly clinical, and I wanted to know how gay people "did it" out of baffled curiousity not disgust of any kind.


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## So Long So Long (Jun 6, 2009)

I definitely plan on having open dialogue with my children about gender identities and sexual orientations from an early age. I mean, they are tossed headlong into straight orientations from birth so I don't see any problem in also throwing in that that's not actually the only way to love another human being. 

I'll also tell them that they can like more than one gender, that they can like boys and girls or people who don't fit into either of those categories. I'll make sure they understand the difference between gender and sex and that hopefully it will help them to be accepting of gender variant people as well as queer individuals. I want my children to be part of a generation that doesn't care so much about these differences, that in fact celebrates the diversity because it should totally be celebrated. We all live life in complexly different ways and gender and sexuality is just one facet of that. 

Most of all I'm going to tell my children that they don't have to hide their true selves away from me because nobody should have to do that. I'm going to love them just the same regardless of their gender identity and sexual orientation because they're my kid and there's no point in trying to change that aspect of them.


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## Philosophaser Song Boy (Jan 16, 2011)

Moya said:


> I wouldn't call this objective.
> 
> Why not teach children about the possibility of love between people of the same sex instead of making it about sex?


Didnt think that was about sex... They just left it open, never lobbying for ****/hetero idealism. Objective.


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## Northcrest (Sep 21, 2012)

I didn't know it was possible to be gay till I was in 3rd grade, and even then I didn't fully grasp the subject. I vaguely remember people picking on this kind for being gay, and I sort assumed he deserved it. But I had close friends who came out when I was in 6th or 7th grade as well as being around them more in certain classes made it easier. I wish that at least its taught in sex ed classes, but not ina sexual way. Just explain that its possible to have these feelings, and your not an alien for doing so.


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## Morfy (Dec 3, 2013)

They should learn it at the same time as they learn about sexuality in general?
Isn't it kinda obvious? I don't think there is really a need for discussion lol


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## Moya (May 22, 2012)

Philosophaser Song Boy said:


> Didnt think that was about sex... They just left it open, never lobbying for ****/hetero idealism. Objective.


The second part wasn't directed towards you.
And I'm saying that "boys have penises/girls have vaginas" isn't objective. Not all boys have penises, not all girls have vaginas.


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

I don't like anti or pro indoctrination to children.

Children should be told what exists in a matter of fact way so they are informed and don't feel theres anything dirty all around. 

I do not believe in the whole glorification of sexual relations to children tho outside education, clarity etc.

I tell my kids in a matter of a fact way. I have lesbian couple of friends etc its not hidden from them. But I also do not solicit it to me kids. Not because I see anything wrong with same sex (I am bi) but because I think kids should be given the knowledge and tools to come to their own conclusions. I just don't promote liberal or conservative indoctrination.


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## Kurt Wagner (Aug 2, 2014)

Kito said:


> I think a lot of homophobia comes from the fact that this society is predominantly heterosexual, and children are taught about 'boyfriends and girlfriends' from an early age, encouraged to believe they'll grow up and get with someone of the opposite gender, that all boys and girls have a chance for relationship etc.
> 
> Homosexual relationships seem like taboo and are something parents cover up, for the most part. I didn't even know homosexuality existed until I saw a gay dating show when I was 11.
> 
> My question is this, do you think children should be educated about it so they grow up with the knowledge that it's acceptable and normal? While it'd probably solve a lot of problems I can see it causing some too.


Completely. Not all children think that same way. As I recall, I always knew homosexuality existed (though not by that name), but I never thought I would ever end up with anyone anyway (and the feeling is still not gone).


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## xisnotx (Mar 20, 2014)

No, mostly because homosexuality isnt normal nor acceptable


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## xisnotx (Mar 20, 2014)

If it does exist in nature, then let nature take its course and stop pushing the issue. You do realize this is a war starting issue, yes? No, you dont...thats the problem. Men go to war for issues lesser than this.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with encouraging your kids to have grandkids, and if there is...virtually every parent in the world is guilty. This homosexuality business needs to be stamped out. As my people would say...sodomi and gomorah..

Yall are lost, sorry


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## Morfy (Dec 3, 2013)

xisnotx said:


> If it does exist in nature, then let nature take its course and stop pushing the issue. You do realize this is a war starting issue, yes? No, you dont...thats the problem. Men go to war for issues lesser than this.
> 
> There is absolutely nothing wrong with encouraging your kids to have grandkids, and if there is...virtually every parent in the world is guilty. This homosexuality business needs to be stamped out. As my people would say...sodomi and gomorah..
> 
> Yall are lost, sorry


Going to war so you can take other people's right away.
What a noble cause!
Well let them all suicide against professional armies. Whatever.


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## SilverFalcon (Dec 18, 2014)

Kito said:


> I think a lot of homophobia comes from the fact that this society is predominantly heterosexual, and children are taught about 'boyfriends and girlfriends' from an early age, encouraged to believe they'll grow up and get with someone of the opposite gender, that all boys and girls have a chance for relationship etc.
> 
> Homosexual relationships seem like taboo and are something parents cover up, for the most part. I didn't even know homosexuality existed until I saw a gay dating show when I was 11.


And you think you should have known a way sooner? I never really cared. Had lot of other stuff to learn.



xisnotx said:


> Men go to war for issues lesser than this.
> This homosexuality business needs to be stamped out. As my people would say...sodomi and gomorah...


To go to a war over what other people do in their beds? My oh my some people really need healthy dose of of misery to learn what is worth fighting for in life.
We should even build arenas for such chaps so we can speed up the Darwinian weeding out process. Just tell them each the other dude is a ****.


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## AmandaLee (Aug 13, 2014)

Of course. 1 in 20 people _at the very least_ will turn out LGBT. No amount of propaganda is going to change this, because it's not a learned behavior. LGBT acceptance is not going to produce more gay kids, just like bigotry and intolerance is not going to produce more straight kids. 

It's about time that the idiots who believe children are being "indoctrinated" to become gay are shown the error of their thinking.


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## AmandaLee (Aug 13, 2014)

xisnotx said:


> Yall are lost, sorry


Says the guy who believes he will marry Malia Obama.


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## Diminuendo (Jun 1, 2015)

xisnotx said:


> If it does exist in nature, then let nature take its course and stop pushing the issue. You do realize this is a war starting issue, yes? No, you dont...thats the problem. Men go to war for issues lesser than this.
> 
> There is absolutely nothing wrong with encouraging your kids to have grandkids, and if there is...virtually every parent in the world is guilty. This homosexuality business needs to be stamped out. As my people would say...sodomi and gomorah..
> 
> Yall are lost, sorry


Encouraging gays to be straight is kind of like encouraging straights to be gay. Not a great use of time.


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## AmandaLee (Aug 13, 2014)

Diminuendo said:


> Encouraging gays to be straight is kind of like encouraging straights to be gay. Not a great use of time.


Well, it certainly does reinforce the notion that the gay person is defective and not acceptable. Which I guess is a great use of time... for an unempathetic bully.


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## xisnotx (Mar 20, 2014)

Morfy Kitty said:


> Going to war so you can take other people's right away.
> What a noble cause!
> Well let them all suicide against professional armies. Whatever.


Im not taking their right away to conceive a family, they simply dont have it to begin with. Those are facts. Argue with facts, I invite you or anyone.

War would depend on how far it must be taken to prove that point. We have already won any such war, but keep on pushing and we shall demonstrate that so as to remove all such doubt.

Test us. 

You finna get burnt son, dont do it.


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## Morfy (Dec 3, 2013)

xisnotx said:


> Im not taking their right away to conceive a family, they simply dont have it to begin with. Those are facts. Argue with facts, I invite you or anyone.
> 
> War would depend on how far it must be taken to prove that point. We have already won any such war, but keep on pushing and we shall demonstrate that so as to remove all such doubt.
> 
> ...


Yea so can't impotent or old couples.
Gay couples who can get married can at least adopt.

What kind of war has been won? Why would anyone want a war against gay marriage?
You're just being really funny and childish tbh.


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## AmandaLee (Aug 13, 2014)

xisnotx said:


> Im not taking their right away to conceive a family, they simply dont have it to begin with. Those are facts. Argue with facts, I invite you or anyone.
> 
> War would depend on how far it must be taken to prove that point. We have already won any such war, but keep on pushing and we shall demonstrate that so as to remove all such doubt.
> 
> ...


Not surprisingly, you're not making a whole lot of sense. 

1. Gay people are capable of conceiving offspring

2. They are just as capable rearing one

3. "Gay people don't have the right to conceive a family" is a "fact"? 

Are you off your meds?


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## xisnotx (Mar 20, 2014)

SilverFalcon said:


> And you think you should have known a way sooner? I never really cared. Had lot of other stuff to learn.
> 
> 
> To go to a war over what other people do in their beds? My oh my some people really need healthy dose of of misery to learn what is worth fighting for in life.
> We should even build arenas for such chaps so we can speed up the Darwinian weeding out process. Just tell them each the other dude is a ****.


You know, I may not be aligned in totality with the effort but I cheer it on because it fits with my own selfish ends? Thats what is really concerning..

Meh, prove me wrong. Im not really here to make people suffer, I want the best for people in the end. I just dont think this is that way. But, if Im wrong Im wrong, and if people are bettter off with me being wrong, then so be it. I just dont see how America expects to continue its worldly dominance when the likes of me decide to opt of it..

You should build me a stadium though, Ive been looking to buy a football team for about 7 years now. Currently in discussions with one..imagine that??

I'm thinking a 5mil loan is sufficient. Yes?


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## xisnotx (Mar 20, 2014)

AmandaLee said:


> Not surprisingly, you're not making a whole lot of sense.
> 
> 1. Gay people are capable of conceiving offspring
> 
> ...


No two people of the same sex are capable of conception. 

Full stop.


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## AmandaLee (Aug 13, 2014)

xisnotx said:


> No two people of the same sex are capable of conception.
> 
> Full stop.


...OH?

So what are you waging a war against? Tilting at windmills big time here, are we?


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## xisnotx (Mar 20, 2014)

AmandaLee said:


> Says the guy who believes he will marry Malia Obama.


Help me find my way..


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## xisnotx (Mar 20, 2014)

AmandaLee said:


> ...OH?
> 
> So what are you waging a war against? Tilting at windmills big time here, are we?


The re establishment of what is called the Holy Covenant betweern man, woman, and God. Commonly referred to as...marriage.

I'm really close to simply mandating that any marriage not confirmed by God is simply null and void from this point forth. 

We can endlessly argue and I enjoy it to a degree, but don't make me draw a line. My word is final, you don't want me not discussing and acting on what I say. 

I don't want to be labeled a bigot. I genuinely love all people. I just don't think that overall, the lifting of the taboo is right. There is a logic behind generations of convention and history has shown..with a falling from sexual politeness, what follows is a falling of that society. In that way, I'm actually arguiung for America, though no one wants to listen.

25 years from now people will look back and be like, hmm..that guy was right. Yeah, I know I'm right. But 25 years from now, don't come to me with other problems when this one you simply dismiss and ignore. 

Luckily, biological fact is on my side so it isn't a pressing issue. Marriage or not, acceptable or not...if I don't see a child then that is what I don't see. Maybe America should fall..nothing is permanent. I'll take one African queen from here, and we can start afresh. God knows Africa has been neglected for too long, perhaps its rise is properly imminent then.

Fine, shes a princess. But, Im also a prince, an imminent king...especially with her arm. Im not just some guy you know. I have a kingdom of my own. But, America is nice..lots to learn etc etc

And don't equate infertility with homosexuality, it is not the same. One is an unfortunate condition of humanity, and the other is infertility..

Sorry. Bad joke.


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