# INFJ vs ENFJ



## Max (Aug 14, 2014)

spaceynyc said:


> the most INFJ thing i've ever read and I agree with ALL of it
> 
> ESPECIALLY the last paragraph


Really? 

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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

VirtualInsanity said:


> Really?
> 
> Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk


No.



> I used to try and rely on improvisation when I was younger and now I can't get by without some sort of insight into the bigger situations at hand, you know?


Sounds more like a ExxP type child who has developed their introverted judging as they grew up.

I mean I can only really compare to myself, but I was all about insights as a kid, too hesitant to 'improvise' unless I thought I saw how things will play out in my head, at which point it doesn't feel like improvisation, I guess.
'Improvising' as a kid.. without an insight.. I can't recall a single occasion that happened.
I do have a terrible memory re: my childhood, though.


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## xraydav (Jan 3, 2013)

VirtualInsanity said:


> Yeah, I don't get all these stereotypes to be honest.
> 
> I tend to switch off when people start to talk to me about most 'New Age' style topics, or 'Veganism' or something about exercise/health but talk to me about something like music, novels or an interesting TV show and I switch on again.



Fe. Fe users focus on group values , and that defines their thinking. Group Feeling values can be ideas (I.e. Church, religion, music, etc) which promote social connections and harmony. All such listed things music, tv shows, etc can do that. While , what your mind switches off on seems to be topics which are unrelated to that focus. (Often subjective values or ideas common to Fi users - New Age stuff, etc)

Also, this could be viewed as an expression of inferior Se, the weaker function. It is often the case, that inferior Se users may misinterpret or miss factual details about situations or immediate experiences. In this case, you are missing a lot of sensory information deliberately, in the course of conversation, akin to an inferior Se. Development of the self, would be to focus more on the development of inferior Se, not just in a negative/stressful way, but in a positive and integrative way. 




> And the whole concept of 'N' people having to be abstract all the time and enjoy intellectual topics bugs me because if you're constantly stuck in a state of comatose with the information you have absorbed and don't bring at least something useful out into the world in the end, then you might as well not know any of it. You know?
> 
> You can be polite, caring and engaged in what other people have to day without being a pushover.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk



The first part is Ni. It is again developing a subjective association , and making causal inferences based on such an association. (Subjective, as it is related to one’s own associations of the external world, rather than directly the external situation, etc) 

The causality would be to develop the association, “N people abstract and enjoy intellectual topics”, associated with “but they are constantly stuck in a state of comatose”, relates to the causal inference of such information - “then you might as well not know any of it”.

Other XNXJs also do this process.




VirtualInsanity said:


> Yeah. Could environment influence a person and force them to seem more developed in the Se and Ti side of things because of their upbringing?
> 
> Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk



This is Ni. A subjective manner of developing causal inferences from an association . Difficult to communicate and generally intangible and unrelated to the immediate/sensory awareness/situation. 

The answer to the question, is based on a relationship. Either you can have relationship with an INFP or a ISTP.

The INFP would open up the shadows of your most used functions with contrary Fi and contrary Ne, and help open the floodgates which end up maturely developing more and more unconscious relationships which allows for the inferior functions to be better developed along the way. 

The ISTP would directly open up and challenge the immature functions (Se and Ti) but end up challenging only the immature functions, and doing not much, for your sense of identity and self, as they are on a different wavelength when it comes to the functions they’re best at. 

You’re also a 9w8 INFJ from the looks of it.


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow (May 28, 2016)

Turi said:


> 'Ti' and 'Ni'..
> 
> They're not really that similar.. those are from the "Building Blocks" link in my sig, which has the functions descriptions from the book _Building Blocks of Personality_ by Hunziker and Haas.


I don't think they're necessarily similar, but I think Ti can appear similar to Ni, especially if someone has lower Ti and is trying to explain the framework that they have come to. Also, like Ni, these frameworks emerge as several pieces of information interact. Also, both allow insightful ways for looking at things (albeit one is based on logic). 

The other day I described a movie I watched to a metaphor of a little kid splashing a lake because the movie was so ordinary and realistic in its plot and momentum buildup. There was no climax, no huge wave, just little splashes one after another. Ti makes you think like that.


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow (May 28, 2016)

ENFJs are more tireless. Perhaps the most tireless, along with ENTJs.


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow (May 28, 2016)

xraydav said:


> The first part is Ni. It is again developing a subjective association , and making causal inferences based on such an association. (Subjective, as it is related to one’s own associations of the external world, rather than directly the external situation, etc)
> 
> The causality would be to develop the association, “N people abstract and enjoy intellectual topics”, associated with “but they are constantly stuck in a state of comatose”, relates to the causal inference of such information - “then you might as well not know any of it”.
> 
> Other XNXJs also do this process.


So that is what my INTJ best friend does! She actually always does that. And I end up questioning / confused over the association, like woah where did that come from. It starts with a basic premise that is assumed to be universal, and then it takes a turn and goes deeper. Often used to dismiss.


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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> So that is what my INTJ best friend does! She actually always does that. And I end up questioning / confused over the association, like woah where did that come from. It starts with a basic premise that is assumed to be universal, and then it takes a turn and goes deeper. Often used to dismiss.


..this isn't Ni.
It's a logical fallacy known as a false cause.


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow (May 28, 2016)

Turi said:


> ..this isn't Ni.
> It's a logical fallacy known as a false cause.


Maybe. But usually it's more of a sentimental statement than a fact.

Like "Fun is supposed to get your mind off of things. Even just for a little while. Or the little things that give you joy. But even while blasting music and lyrics is always fun for me, it doesn't provide the maximum possible extent that it could have since I'm worried about others thing. Like having a multi geared mind nonstop." 

That may or may not be an actual text...


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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> Maybe. But usually it's more of a sentimental statement than a fact.
> 
> Like "Fun is supposed to get your mind off of things. Even just for a little while. Or the little things that give you joy. But even while blasting music and lyrics is always fun for me, it doesn't provide the maximum possible extent that it could have since I'm worried about others thing. Like having a multi geared mind nonstop."
> 
> That may or may not be an actual text...


Begging the question?


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## Max (Aug 14, 2014)

xraydav said:


> Fe. Fe users focus on group values , and that defines their thinking. Group Feeling values can be ideas (I.e. Church, religion, music, etc) which promote social connections and harmony. All such listed things music, tv shows, etc can do that. While , what your mind switches off on seems to be topics which are unrelated to that focus. (Often subjective values or ideas common to Fi users - New Age stuff, etc)


Yeah. Subjective values are hard to understand from the point of view that you don't know if you've truly crossed the line or not, internally. There is too much subjectivity on that point. 



> Also, this could be viewed as an expression of inferior Se, the weaker function. It is often the case, that inferior Se users may misinterpret or miss factual details about situations or immediate experiences. In this case, you are missing a lot of sensory information deliberately, in the course of conversation, akin to an inferior Se. Development of the self, would be to focus more on the development of inferior Se, not just in a negative/stressful way, but in a positive and integrative way.


Yeah, like through exercise or something. I find it hard to exercise everyday, especially when the weather is crappy during winter. 




> The first part is Ni. It is again developing a subjective association , and making causal inferences based on such an association. (Subjective, as it is related to one’s own associations of the external world, rather than directly the external situation, etc)
> 
> The causality would be to develop the association, “N people abstract and enjoy intellectual topics”, associated with “but they are constantly stuck in a state of comatose”, relates to the causal inference of such information - “then you might as well not know any of it”.


Yeah, it's better to know what you need to know, rather than intellectualize for the sake of it sometimes. 



> This is Ni. A subjective manner of developing causal inferences from an association . Difficult to communicate and generally intangible and unrelated to the immediate/sensory awareness/situation.


Tell me about it. 



> The answer to the question, is based on a relationship. Either you can have relationship with an INFP or a ISTP.
> 
> The INFP would open up the shadows of your most used functions with contrary Fi and contrary Ne, and help open the floodgates which end up maturely developing more and more unconscious relationships which allows for the inferior functions to be better developed along the way.
> 
> The ISTP would directly open up and challenge the immature functions (Se and Ti) but end up challenging only the immature functions, and doing not much, for your sense of identity and self, as they are on a different wavelength when it comes to the functions they’re best at.


When you say relationship, you mean on an intimate, sexual level as opposed to a more brotherly/sisterly level?



> You’re also a 9w8 INFJ from the looks of it.


9w8? No one has ever suggested that to me before.



Turi said:


> Sounds more like a ExxP type child who has developed their introverted judging as they grew up.
> 
> I mean I can only really compare to myself, but I was all about insights as a kid, too hesitant to 'improvise' unless I thought I saw how things will play out in my head, at which point it doesn't feel like improvisation, I guess.
> 'Improvising' as a kid.. without an insight.. I can't recall a single occasion that happened.
> I do have a terrible memory re: my childhood, though.


"Improvisation" was more a case of having to do it in order to keep up with the other kids and schoolwork. I think that the main reason I went a bit "off the rails" when I was younger was because I was using far too much Se and not introspecting enough. 



TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> I don't think they're necessarily similar, but I think Ti can appear similar to Ni, especially if someone has lower Ti and is trying to explain the framework that they have come to. Also, like Ni, these frameworks emerge as several pieces of information interact. Also, both allow insightful ways for looking at things (albeit one is based on logic).
> 
> The other day I described a movie I watched to a metaphor of a little kid splashing a lake because the movie was so ordinary and realistic in its plot and momentum buildup. There was no climax, no huge wave, just little splashes one after another. Ti makes you think like that.


I do that too haha. I imagine it also. 



TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> So that is what my INTJ best friend does! She actually always does that. And I end up questioning / confused over the association, like woah where did that come from. It starts with a basic premise that is assumed to be universal, and then it takes a turn and goes deeper. Often used to dismiss.


Yeah. 

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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

@VirtualInsanity 



> "Improvisation" was more a case of having to do it in order to keep up with the other kids and schoolwork. I think that the main reason I went a bit "off the rails" when I was younger was because I was using far too much Se and not introspecting enough.


Well this practically rules out 'Ni' as dominant.
Your dominant is your "main mode" as a youngster, you apparently develop the rest as you grow up.

It sounds to me like Se was your main mode - without properly developing whatever judging function you have - which is the reasons you went "off the rails".

"Keep up with the other kids" - good luck finding an intuitive dominant who cared about _that_ as a kid.

I think you're likely one of an absolute plethora of SP types who has an overinflated view of their intuition, from your last couple of posts.


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## Max (Aug 14, 2014)

Turi said:


> @VirtualInsanity
> 
> 
> 
> ...


/shrug

I am an EINFJSTP at this stage. 



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## xraydav (Jan 3, 2013)

VirtualInsanity said:


> Yeah, like through exercise or something. I find it hard to exercise everyday, especially when the weather is crappy during winter.


Well, not really. inferior Se would be how you act when you are stressed, or critical of the world.

I’ll try to pull up some examples. 

This character is INFJ (also, 9w8) in the grip of his inferior Se.







From 0:39

His criticism relies heavily on the situation itself (no attitude or orientation to the possibilities in the future), 

and after 053:

“I have only 5 months to live,and you’re making me go through this alone” (Additionally you can also see how, after his secondary Fe [to do with group values, social harmony, closeness in relationships, etc]is no longer supplied feedback, whirls him into stress mode, via inferior Se)

“I need to you to tell me (right now) that you love me”

All of this reveals an negative and unhealthy depiction of Se, and one can develop it though consciousness - bringing unconscious experiences of oneself, into the conscious awareness. Noticing that you do this, and incorporating a healthier focus, like an ESTP (using Se, in a constructive manner , and engaging in hypothesis thinking like a Ti dom, being objective with characters in a situation) 

Developing Feeling could also help (Seeing Fi more, and developing your shadow), understanding that others have their own peculiarities and differences, and these subjective values should be appreciated, alongside your own. 

I believe this conflict would most likely, cause some form of relationship issue at this point you made here : 



> Subjective values are hard to understand from the perspective you do not know where you have truly crossed the line or not, internally. There is too much subjectivity on that point





> Yeah, it's better to know what you need to know, rather than intellectualize for the sake of it sometimes.






> When you say relationship, you mean on an intimate, sexual level as opposed to a more brotherly/sisterly level?



If this was in reference to my description of Fe -I believe it is associable to any different forms and symbolisms in reality. at the core, it’s a preferential focus on information, which has relevance to any factor or value (idea, etc) which creates a sense of social harmony. If that factor is sexual and keeps groups together through some factor described, then, yes, but I believe it could take either form. 




> 9w8? No one has ever suggested that to me before.


MBTI is about thought process. Enneagram is about motivations and breakdown in a looping fashion. 
For example, a type nine would seek stability, “connections” and structure out in the world, and breakdown when it is not possible. (i.e. when the other has interests of their own, that are too subjective to interpret in some way) and the type eight, would seek strength in such structures, and breakdown if it cannot be found (i.e. not being “strong enough” to keep up with other kids or homework) “Strength” can be possible in many forms, whether physical, interpersonal, emotional, behavioural, or intellectual strength. 




> "Improvisation" was more a case of having to do it in order to keep up with the other kids and schoolwork. I think that the main reason I went a bit "off the rails" when I was younger was because I was using far too much Se and not introspecting enough.



Inferior Se. To an Ni dom, Se is a point of stress or a bad memory. Either through the course of natural personality developments in life, or therapy, you will discover a new way of looking at the same types of experiences. Or the perspective from the function itself. 

i.e. inferior Fe comes in the form of being reactant to relationships , in a negative manner. Seeing social niceties or social harmony as irrelevant to the hypotheses/rationalisations Ti forms regarding the world. Over time, I have focused more on psychology and personality as a means to bring people together, rather than to disregard their differences. (Although, it could develop much better, it’s still a point of ultimate stress and breakdown for me)


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## clem (Jun 10, 2017)

In my experience, the ENFJ never says no to a party. Usually they are the ones arranging it. They have a lot less social anxiety.


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## calicobts (Sep 12, 2017)

I don't think I've met an ENFJ in my life so far, considering they only make about 2% of the population according to MBTI statistics they are very rare which would explain this. So I can't speak about ENFJs in a concrete way, but theoretically. 

Theoretically speaking, ENFJs are going to have these traits:

- *Strong charisma and confidence*
- *Puts more time into their physical appearance and sensory things.* Ex: good fashion sense, likes to travel and eat nice food, spends more time on social media. (Tert-Se)
- *If unhealthy:* manipulative, very sensitive to criticism, people pleasing while ignoring the individual, hides their emotions for the sake of others, and needy.
- *Good at influencing people for the better.* Dom-Fe allows them to read and push people better than aux-Fe.
- *Extroverted.* Because Fe is externally focused on others, the ENFJ is more likely to engage with people. However, the purpose of this is usually to help and create peace among the group. ENFJs do have an introverted side as well though.
- *Helps people on the basis of their vision for what people should be like and what is best for them. * This is often why cult leaders are mostly ENFJs.


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## Strelnikov (Jan 19, 2018)

calicobts said:


> I don't think I've met an ENFJ in my life so far, considering they only make about 2% of the population according to MBTI statistics they are very rare which would explain this. So I can't speak about ENFJs in a concrete way, but theoretically.
> 
> Theoretically speaking, ENFJs are going to have these traits:
> 
> ...


I have met both ENFJs and INFJs (I love both ENFJs and INFJs, you guys are awesome!!! ) and yes they do seem more confident and charismatic, they can be manipulative, but only if abused or unhealthy, they are more outgoing than INFJs. However, they don't necessarily put more time into physical appearance... They have a different style. INFJs have a simple elegant style, while ENFJs have a slightly more extravagant style (brighter colours and more accesories). Also, I'd like to add that ENFJs may seem STP-ish at times. The Se is visible in them, both in their personal style, but also in the way they talk or behave. It's more... aware of the present moment, less dreamy (like INFJs may seem).


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## Master_Star (Jan 16, 2018)

I always thought people can use their first three functions okay but struggle with their fourth. People can use their fifth without any problem but don't care to use it when they have to. People ignore their 6th function and don't care for it.

So even though ENFJ and INFJ have all of the same functions just placed differently, they are really quite different. ENFJs can use Se and Fi but struggle with Ti and Ne. INFJs on the other hand can use Ti and Ne but struggle with Se and Fi.


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## calicobts (Sep 12, 2017)

1nquisitor said:


> I have met both ENFJs and INFJs (I love both ENFJs and INFJs, you guys are awesome!!! ) and yes they do seem more confident and charismatic, they can be manipulative, but only if abused or unhealthy, they are more outgoing than INFJs. However, they don't necessarily put more time into physical appearance... They have a different style. INFJs have a simple elegant style, while ENFJs have a slightly more extravagant style (brighter colours and more accesories). Also, I'd like to add that ENFJs may seem STP-ish at times. The Se is visible in them, both in their personal style, but also in the way they talk or behave. It's more... aware of the present moment, less dreamy (like INFJs may seem).



I agree on your explanation of Se, I think it's because since it isn't their inferior function it comes with more ease. They're more intuned naturally with aesthetics than myself. I think maybe the reason the seem STP-ish is since they're first function is a judging function they get stuff done. Also considering that Ni-Se are next to each other in the stacking, sometimes it can be a bit ambiguous which one is more dominant.


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## Max (Aug 14, 2014)

*The OP has finally responded...*



xraydav said:


> Well, not really. inferior Se would be how you act when you are stressed, or critical of the world.


Yeah, but you can still use it in a healthy way when you develop it, right? It's like Jerkyll and Hyde right? Sometimes it works well, and sometimes it works bad (stressed). It's like the most unstable function in the four main ones, yeah? It's powerful within the psyche but it's been so supressed and when it does come out (through stress), it's very unpredictable, but when you learn how to 'tame' it, you can control it better and use it in more useful and stressful ways. Yeah? 



> I’ll try to pull up some examples.
> 
> This character is INFJ (also, 9w8) in the grip of his inferior Se.
> 
> ...


Yeah is this why in Socionics, people suggest that your dual will help you in your weaker areas? (e.g. IEI and SLE- IEI will cover Ni and Fe for the SLE, and SLE will cover Se and Ti in the IEI's psyche and the Ti-HA of the IEI will also be fulfiled in the form of SLE's Ti and vice-versa). 



> Developing Feeling could also help (Seeing Fi more, and developing your shadow), understanding that others have their own peculiarities and differences, and these subjective values should be appreciated, alongside your own.


According to Socionics, Fi manifests in INFp (INFJs) as so: 


> *IEIs not uncommonly apply their cogitations to topics pertaining to morality, ethics, and relationships. They have a strong understanding of the breadth of their inner emotional responses and dispositions to others. However, they may be inclined to treat their internal ethical sentiments somewhat passively; instead they are often more concerned with the energy and emotional responses of others around them*. They are more interested in the dynamism of their emotional surroundings and often are inclined to adapt their behavior or even their persona to fit the situation.


Theoretically, if an INFJ introspected more and focused on their understanding of inner emotional responses/disposistions to others, and also voiced/applied more effort to their opinions/instincts on Fi-style topics (like the ones mentioned above), they could come across as more INFP (INFj) like and seem more inclined towards the healthy development of the [shadow] part of the psyche, like you have mentioned. 



> I believe this conflict would most likely, cause some form of relationship issue at this point you made here :
> 
> If this was in reference to my description of Fe -I believe it is associable to any different forms and symbolisms in reality. at the core, it’s a preferential focus on information, which has relevance to any factor or value (idea, etc) which creates a sense of social harmony. If that factor is sexual and keeps groups together through some factor described, then, yes, but I believe it could take either form.


What if you need to be 'confrontational' and 'assertive' to create social harmony? That's still Fe. Not every INFJ is a a doormat/passive always (yeah, granted ENFJs are more likely to do this, given that they are a lot more active in using their Fe+Se functions, but it's not impossible for an INFJ to be assertive to create harmony and break up fights/assert themselves, especially in older, more developed ones).



> MBTI is about thought process. Enneagram is about motivations and breakdown in a looping fashion.
> For example, a type nine would seek stability, “connections” and structure out in the world, and breakdown when it is not possible. (i.e. when the other has interests of their own, that are too subjective to interpret in some way) and the type eight, would seek strength in such structures, and breakdown if it cannot be found (i.e. not being “strong enough” to keep up with other kids or homework) “Strength” can be possible in many forms, whether physical, interpersonal, emotional, behavioural, or intellectual strength.


A type nine seeks stability? I thought that was a six, but I guess sixes and nines share similar qualities because they are both from the same stem. I thought nines were more concerned with the 'harmony' aspect of those structures rather than the 'security' aspect, being a gut type and not a head one:



> At their Best: indomitable and all-embracing, they are able to bring people together and heal conflicts.
> 
> *Basic Fear: Of loss and separation.
> Basic Desire: To have inner stability "peace of mind".*
> ...


Unless you are also factoring in 'relationships' into your definition or someone with a 96x tritype, then I can see where you are coming from, but if you mean in general, then I think that you're slightly off but I know what you're saying but I tend to agree with the eight definition a lot more. 

Yeah, it also depends on how you define those qualities and how you define strength too (e.g. what one person claims is 'intellectual' might not be what another person claims it is, and 'strength' as it is also defined might also be varied differently from person to person) but I think we all have a consensus on the concepts of what each one of these words means.



> Inferior Se. To an Ni dom, Se is a point of stress or a bad memory. Either through the course of natural personality developments in life, or therapy, you will discover a new way of looking at the same types of experiences. Or the perspective from the function itself.





> i.e. inferior Fe comes in the form of being reactant to relationships , in a negative manner. Seeing social niceties or social harmony as irrelevant to the hypotheses/rationalisations Ti forms regarding the world. Over time, I have focused more on psychology and personality as a means to bring people together, rather than to disregard their differences. (Although, it could develop much better, it’s still a point of ultimate stress and breakdown for me)


Yeah, true. CBT is meant to be good for shaping experiences and giving them positive experience or something, but I have never researched it/tried it out. I know that such concepts exist to help people get over phobias (but I think that's more 'exposure'-based than 'cognitive' based, but I guess both can exist in exposing one to their fears and then cognitively re-wiring their brains with positive experiences of that phobia).



clem said:


> In my experience, the ENFJ never says no to a party. Usually they are the ones arranging it. They have a lot less social anxiety.


Lol, I think that's pretty much every super, friendly extroverted ExFx to a degree?  And social anxiety? What about if an INFJ has asocial tendancies or just social passiveness/indifference as opposed to 'anxiety'.



calicobts said:


> I don't think I've met an ENFJ in my life so far, considering they only make about 2% of the population according to MBTI statistics they are very rare which would explain this. So I can't speak about ENFJs in a concrete way, but theoretically.
> 
> Theoretically speaking, ENFJs are going to have these traits:
> 
> ...


So... theoretically an ENFJ is the one serving the spiked Kool Aid and playing this song in the background?:





 



> 1nquisitor said:
> 
> 
> > I have met both ENFJs and INFJs (I love both ENFJs and INFJs, you guys are awesome!!! ) and yes they do seem more confident and charismatic, they can be manipulative, but only if abused or unhealthy, they are more outgoing than INFJs. However, they don't necessarily put more time into physical appearance... They have a different style. INFJs have a simple elegant style, while ENFJs have a slightly more extravagant style (brighter colours and more accesories). Also, I'd like to add that ENFJs may seem STP-ish at times. The Se is visible in them, both in their personal style, but also in the way they talk or behave. It's more... aware of the present moment, less dreamy (like INFJs may seem).
> ...


If they're not lazy  



Master_Star said:


> I always thought people can use their first three functions okay but struggle with their fourth. People can use their fifth without any problem but don't care to use it when they have to. People ignore their 6th function and don't care for it.
> 
> So even though ENFJ and INFJ have all of the same functions just placed differently, they are really quite different. ENFJs can use Se and Fi but struggle with Ti and Ne. INFJs on the other hand can use Ti and Ne but struggle with Se and Fi.


You mean like in Socionics?


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