# Name That Quadra!



## Wolfskralle

@Entropic I didn't even know such thing as "-" or "+" Se exist in socionics lol
But yeah, their videos always gave me impression as if they were doing it wrong. Like there is Se energy under the surface but it cannot be released cause it's bond in these static pictures; as a result I find it not energizing but disturbing.
If Psyclon Nine is an example of "+" Se Ni, could bands like Throbbing Gristle or perhaps Death In June be an example of Ni "+" Se (with more Ni element)?
@Word Dispenser why do you think the video I posted is Beta? I thought someone gonna say that, but I'm not sure if it is Ni Fe or Ni-Fi/Fi-Ni. It seems kinda emotional, but does it necessarily mean Fe?


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## Entropic

wolf12345 said:


> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=39512" target="_blank">Entropic</a></i></span> I didn't even know such thing as "-" or "+" Se exist in socionics lol
> But yeah, their videos always gave me impression as if they were doing it wrong. Like there is Se energy under the surface but it cannot be released cause it's bond in these static pictures; as a result I find it not energizing but disturbing.
> If Psyclon Nine is an example of "+" Se Ni, could bands like Throbbing Gristle or perhaps Death In June be an example of Ni "+" Se (with more Ni element)?


Let me check. This video seems gamma-ish, at least:






This one is super-Ni, seems gamma:






I could see this as gamma:






And yes, +- elements exist in socionics. It's one of Gulenko's theories, I believe? - tries to reduce unwanted elements pertaining to that element, and + tries to emphasize wanted elements.


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## Word Dispenser

wolf12345 said:


> @_Word Dispenser_ why do you think the video I posted is Beta? I thought someone gonna say that, but I'm not sure if it is Ni Fe or Ni-Fi/Fi-Ni. It seems kinda emotional, but does it necessarily mean Fe?


Just struck me as Ni Fe somewhere. I dunno. It isn't exactly 'deep' like Fi usually is.


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## Pancreatic Pandora

Entropic said:


> Agreed. Gamma humor is very serious. Much more witty and sarcastic. I posted a video recently of Marilyn Manson in the David Letterman show. It's a good example of gamma humor. He pulls a lot of jokes though Letterman doesn't get them, lol. There's that show Daria that's a good example of gamma humor though more on the rational side:


Why do you think it's more rational?


Speaking of humor:






Delta? Maybe Gamma.


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## fasc

Give me an opinion on this one.


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## fasc

Another movie trailer (some nsfw parts).


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## MNiS

Gamma SF humor with a dose of Alpha NT humor and writing:


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## The_Wanderer

Opinions on this video?


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## The Exception

Now for something totally different:






Ideas?


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## Vermillion

Type these awesome videos:






Translation of the above: 
http://lyricstranslate.com/en/malysh-малыш-my-baby.html






Translation of the above:
http://lyricstranslate.com/en/lyubov039-suka-love-bitch.html






Translation of the above:
http://lyricstranslate.com/en/sergels-torg-sergels-torg-sergels-square.html


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## Word Dispenser

The_Wanderer said:


> Opinions on this video?


Ni+Ti, I think.


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## Word Dispenser

Fractals and Pterodactyls said:


> Now for something totally different:
> 
> Ideas?


Beta? :laughing:


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## Word Dispenser

Amaterasu said:


> Type these awesome videos:


Just took a quick look. I think Beta makes sense for the first one, anyway... The other two seemed similar, so I skipped them? lol.


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## Word Dispenser

Pancreatic Pandora said:


> Why do you think it's more rational?
> 
> 
> Speaking of humor:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta? Maybe Gamma.


lol :laughing: Delta.


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## Pancreatic Pandora

Word Dispenser said:


> lol :laughing: Delta.


Yeah, you are right. After posting that I watched this video...






and that ending was a "nope" to gamma.


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## 0+n*1




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## 0+n*1

is this gamma?


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## The Exception




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## Word Dispenser

Fractals and Pterodactyls said:


>


I'm not sure, really, except that it seems to be criticizing SJ values? roud:


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## Entropic

The_Wanderer said:


> Opinions on this video?





Word Dispenser said:


> Ni+Ti, I think.


Gamma. The animator is called Niklas Sundin and is one of the band members of Dark Tranquillity though he has a lot of animation projects on the side:

cabin fever media

I've been keeping an eye on him for a while, mostly because I like his art and because I think he's an ILI. Dark Tranquillity is a fairly gamma band in general. I think Mikael Stanne, the singer, is a gamma too, at least. Not sure what kind, though.

To add, the reason why I think this is Ni + Fi rather than Ni + Ti is because Ni + Ti is just... different. Or at least, Ni + Fe is. You see that in Die Antwoord. More zany. Or take this animation that Disney did, also beta:






Beta videos have a different focus. Gamma because of Fi, seems more... inert. Withdrawn. Pointing to the self. Somehow. Difficult to put into words. Less interested to connect.


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## kitsu

Entropic said:


> I don't know? Mostly thinking that his movies also tend to have pretty violent themes like already cited Mononoke Hime and... my gut reaction to that anyway, is that the ferocity of it doesn't at surface level seem to fit Se PoLR? I agree those quotes are very Fi, and all his movies are all about the importance of relationships so I can't see him as Fe. Also, his movies aren't zany like the Disney movie that was a collab between Disney and Dalí I linked earlier, which I think would be beta NF in visual arts. Nor are they anything like Die Antwoord.


Well if you go by the assumption that xII directed films can't have violence written into them sure... I don't know either. There are limits to the predictive value of socionics.


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## Entropic

Merry blues said:


> Well if you go by the assumption that xII directed films can't have violence written into them sure... I don't know either. There are limits to the predictive value of socionics.


Not saying they can't, but it's mostly hm, the directedness of it, how primal it is. I find that Ne types tend to overall shy away from that. Maybe I'm stereotyping though, idk. I haven't seen it, however.


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## kitsu

Entropic said:


> Not saying they can't, but it's mostly hm, the directedness of it, how primal it is. I find that Ne types tend to overall shy away from that. Maybe I'm stereotyping though, idk. I haven't seen it, however.


Yeah no I see your point. Speaking for myself though, movies with real violence I can't deal with. If someone is getting punched repeatedly or raped or the whole vibe is just too psychologically twisted, my face is under a pillow. Like I seriously can't even. I don't get what point they're making and I don't get people who can watch without flinching, it just seems like gratuitous mental abuse to me. But Myazaki is kind of cotton candy next to real violence. People shooting cartoon rockets at each other in a magical world filled with whimsical creatures I can manage. I think he tries to show the pain and fear that drives it a lot, and the role that it plays in the grand scheme of things. There's no better way of illustrating something like the devastating impact of greed than by showing actual destruction, it's just another way to epitomize forces of evil. It's more of a "look, this exists and it's an integral part of human nature" than a "force of will is the lens through which I see things" kind of thing if that makes any sense.


Another quote because quotes are nice 




> “In the past, humans hesitated when they took lives, even non-human lives. But society had changed, and they no longer feel that way. As humans grew stronger, I think that we became quite arrogant, losing the sorrow of 'we have no other choice.' I think that in the essence of human civilization, we have the desire to become rich without limit, by taking the lives of other creatures.”


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## Entropic

A different request though related. Can someone type Link from Twilight Princess? He's a tricky one because he's written to be a silent hero who has no dialogue and very little reaction with other characters on his own in order to be as open as possible for the player to project themselves and their own characteristics onto Link. This does not mean there is nothing there however; he seems to be Fi-valuing because of his overall positive relationships with Ilia (some kind of Fi base) and Midna (SEE). He also seems to be some kind of irrational leaning IP temperament but am I projecting lol? Well, do your best. It really boils down to a lot of hypothetical what if's and best fit, I think, but if you're bored and got some hours to spare: 
















Going to watch this myself haha, because I'm too lazy to fire up my game and charge my remote and I just love the atmosphere of this game and the overall writing of it. Easily my favorite with Majora's Mask who incidentally, is also a very gamma-based game for Zelda. No wonder I lose those the most.


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## To_august

Word Dispenser said:


> Also...
> I suspect she is SEI-Si. roud: Her music is very.. Comfortable, sweet, and mellow.


Aww, such a comfy song and a video. I agree on SiFe. Si when paired with Fi is also calming and atmospheric, but kind of colder, more absorbed and turned inward. Such as something along these lines:






Is Labyrinth Alpha? One one of my favouritesroud:


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## Word Dispenser

To_august said:


> Aww, such a comfy song and a video. I agree on SiFe. Si when paired with Fi is also calming and atmospheric, but kind of colder, more absorbed and turned inward. Such as something along these lines:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is Labyrinth Alpha? One one of my favouritesroud:


Labyrinth probably is Alpha. :laughing:


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## Dragheart Luard

I saw that there were videos of animated stuff, so I thought that could be interesting to type this Digimon season, which was my favorite when I was a kid. I suspect that it's beta, or at least it's more SeNi than the other seasons that are far more Ne, so that would explain why I found it more interesting than Adventure. Here's one of the fights, as I couldn't find too many videos of the japanese dub.


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## To_august

Series discussion in a neighboring thread reminded me of this. I think this is a good example of a sensor vs an intuitive interaction (I think Castle is Alpha ILE and Beckett - Delta LSE)


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## Straystuff

Any idea of the quadras of these two? I love them both but I find them hard to place.


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## Gentleman

LIE:





LII:


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## Word Dispenser

Straystuff said:


> Any idea of the quadras of these two? I love them both but I find them hard to place.


The first one is an interesting one-- It seems like a mix of Alpha and Beta. There's a satirical message there as well that might imply more Gamma vibes. At least the depiction of the windmill itself and the fictional girl, who's name I forget atm, is pretty solid Ne symbolism. At least I think so. 

That vids a pretty good jumble of cognition that fits well with the lyrics.

Dunno about the second. Seeing Se-Ni in it, though.


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## Word Dispenser

One of my favourite music videos:


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## To_august

Niiiiiii!
Beta, Gamma?





Duals from Alpha?


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## Entropic

@To_august first video is beta.


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## To_august

Entropic said:


> @_To_august_ first video is beta.


I suspected that my difficulty with finishing watching this video was a good sign of the opposing Quadra, lol.



Word Dispenser said:


> One of my favourite music videos:


Creative and funny. I'm getting Alpha vibes. 
It won video of the year, didn't it?

________

In the beginning I thought Beta, then that its Se energy is more subtle than Beta's one. 
Maybe Gamma SF?









(Upon watching some of his other videos, Delta became a possibility too:laughing


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## Entropic

To_august said:


> I suspected that my difficulty with finishing watching this video was a good sign of the opposing Quadra, lol.


Well, the music was the defining factor that made me think it was beta to me, because the music didn't seem to want to tell a story about human nature that is common with Fi. 

As for Woodkid, delta is probably more likely. The overall aesthetic is Se-ish, but the way it's done aside the slowmotion clips don't really suggest Se-Ni.


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## Elyasis

Not enough gamma music imo. Have to switch between beta and delta to get Se-Ni and Fi-Te... just not together. And a lot of the solidly gamma music isn't in a style I like. ( 1st world problems!)

@_Entropic_

We're such negativists. I don't know why but it made me laugh a bit when I realized it.


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## Entropic

Elyasis said:


> @_Entropic_
> 
> We're such negativists. I don't know why but it made me laugh a bit when I realized it.


I know. It's bad when someone asks me if I'm happy and I'm like, I'm not unhappy :bored:.


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## Gentleman

Erika deranged ILE, godly voice acting:


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## Word Dispenser

To_august said:


> Creative and funny. I'm getting Alpha vibes.
> It won video of the year, didn't it?


Well.. Apparently...

The "Weapon of Choice" video won six awards at the 2001 MTV Video Music Awards.[SUP][1][/SUP] Walken was awarded one of MTV's "Moonmen" for Best Choreography. The clip was also ranked number one in a list of the top 100 videos of all time by VH1 in April 2002 that was compiled from a music industry survey.

I had no idea. :laughing: 

Just love that video ever since I saw it.

Sigh. I'm so mainstream. roud:


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## kitsu

Introverted Gamma awesomeness


* *














Beta. Second one has a bit more Fi?


* *



















Alpha


* *



















Could people get into the habit of wrapping spoiler tags around their videos? I don't know if I'm the only person affected by this but I have trouble accessing this thread because my computer's too old to handle so many videos on one page.


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## Word Dispenser

I can do spoiler tags, no problem, @Merry blues!


Probably Alpha. :kitteh:

* *


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## somnuvore

* *












This seems pretty gamma to me.


* *












This one strikes me as delta...


* *












And this one seems like the epitome of beta


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## Entropic

@somnuvore Hah, I remember Story from North America and yeah, I agree, it's pretty Fi, the message of that video.


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## Serpent

Briefly departing from the trend, I think Samurai Champloo is probably Se-Ni. Is it Beta or Gamma?


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## The Exception

Word Dispenser said:


> I can do spoiler tags, no problem, @_Merry blues_!
> 
> 
> Probably Alpha. :kitteh:
> 
> * *


I see a new typology system in the works.... :crazy:


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## The Exception

Alpha NT overload!

I think Ben is LII, and Leslie is probably an ESE.


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## Pancreatic Pandora

wolf12345 said:


> @_Pancreatic Pandora_ thx after that I definitely get what Alpha videos are :d
> 
> About that delta-gamma video I actually get more Si-Ne vibe from that, all those exaggerated colors and shit, that scene at 1:07 actually made me think about Si, and it generally have some Si-Fi nostalgia. Maybe it have some Se "energy" but I think that all Anime openings are like that  But dunno, not so sure about this video, hence question mark in previous post.


And why would exaggerated colors be an indicator of Si-Ne? In films/animations the use of colors conveys emotional tones and the contrast of the colors used in different shots can posses a metaphorical content but whether cognition can be observed in the use colors depends on what kind of meaning you can extract from the use of them.

The image at 1:07 would be Si only if it could be somehow linked to an actual physical experience that the image represented. Like the sensations of rain, laying in a bathtub, etc. However, and this is my interpretation, I don't think that's what the image is actually trying to do. Instead, it is a product of Ni due to actually being symbolic and attempting to convey something that's unrelated to the physical experience of the actual image. Something like a sense of safety that comes from sharing a moment with a loved one (the two silhouttes facing each other, a theme that could also be linked to Fi) during times of hardship (conflict/hardship/strain = rain, background = happinness, comfort, ecstasy), the bathtub giving the situation a more "earthly" feeling or maybe being related to the rain, a water theme. That's just one possible interpretation, I didn't even adress the fact that the people appear to be holding their hands together as if praying which could lead us to other possible meanings, just for the sake of writting one coherent and more or less comprehensive one.

The one at 1:03 could be another intuitive image too. It's a theme of "shedding one's skin", "rebirth", "cleansing". "Awakening" in particular is suggested by the woman opening her eyes.

And yes, the video overall seemed to have a Se "energy" to it. For example, the fierceness of the woman holding the knife with her teeth at 1:17. It makes me think of vengeance too, which, imo, is a typically gamma theme (Se+Fi).


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## Entropic

Stampede said:


> Erika deranged ILE, godly voice acting:


Something about alpha NT doesn't seem right for Erika. I'd bet my money on beta extrotrim, SLE or EIE. Which is to say, it's not like alpha NTs cannot be crazy, but their craziness is just a very different kind of craziness, like Dr. Stein from Soul Eater (can't find any good clip, really):






Or at least the Joker from Nolan's Batman:


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## Wolfskralle

@Pancreatic Pandora 

Completely agree with your interpretations of this image, etc. I’d just like to point a fact, that Si don’t necessarily need to be linked with actual physical experience, like you mentioned (sensations of rain, laying in a bathtub). At least I think so; it don’t need to be linked in that exact way. 

I’ve also thought about sense (feeling) of safety that this image evoke - hence why mentioned Si-Fi axis.

Let me quote C. G. Jung on Introverted Sensation Type (I’m quoting english version widely avaible on the net; don’t have guts to transale my own copy, athought I think the internet one is not perfectly translated…):



> „Whereas, the extraverted sensation-type is determined by the intensity of the objective influence, the introverted type is orientated by the intensity of the subjective sensation-constituent released by the objective stimulus (_note: in my translation there is not word „objective” used_). Obviously, therefore, no sort of proportional relation exists between object and sensation, but something that is apparently quite irregular and arbitrary judging from without, therefore, it is practically impossible to foretell what will make an impression and what will not….
> the object is not consciously depreciated in the least, but its stimulus is removed from it, because it is immediately replaced by a subjective reaction, which is no longer related to the reality of the object. …
> Above all, his development estranges him from the reality of the object, handing him over to his subjective perceptions, which orientate his consciousness in accordance with an archaic reality, although his deficiency in comparative judgment keeps him wholly unaware of this fact. Actually he moves in a mythological world, where men animals, railways, houses, rivers, and mountains appear partly as benevolent deities and partly as malevolent demons. That thus they, appear to him never enters his mind, although their effect upon his judgments and acts can bear no other interpretation. He judges and acts as [p. 504] though he had such powers to deal with; but this begins to strike him only when he discovers that his sensations are totally different from reality. If his tendency is to reason objectively, he will sense this difference as morbid; but if, on the other hand, he remains faithful to his irrationality, and is prepared to grant his sensation reality value, the objective world will appear a mere make-belief and a comedy.
> Considered from without, it looks as though the effect of the object [p. 502] did not obtrude itself upon the subject. This impression is so far correct inasmuch as a subjective content does, in fact, intervene from the unconscious, thus snatching away the effect of the object. This intervention may be so abrupt that the individual appears to shield himself directly from any possible influence of the object. In any aggravated or well-marked case, such a protective guard is also actually present. Even with only a slight reinforcement of the unconscious, the subjective constituent of sensation becomes so alive that it almost completely obscures the objective influence. The results of this are, on the one hand, a feeling of complete depreciation on the part of the object, and, on the other, an illusory conception of reality on the part of the subject, which in morbid cases may even reach the point of a complete inability to discriminate between the real object and the subjective perception.


Etc. 
One might argue that even though impressions are so far removed from object it doesn’t negate the fact that those impressions have to be extracted from „an actual physical experience”. Perhaps, yes, but I think Jung used term „object” in broader, philosophical way; „object” may represent any kind of external stimulus, not necessarily a „thing”. Obvioulsy for intuition term „object” have even broader meaning, but that’s not the point.
I think that „a sense of safety that comes from sharing a moment with a loved one during times of hardship ” might be an object of perception for Introverted Sensing. And this kind of perception might be easly converted into those kind of images you mentioned.



> „Subjective sensation apprehends the background of the physical world rather than its surface. The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.”



I just think that those kinds of symbolic interpretations, meanings, etc. are not exclusive for Ni.


I think exaggerated colors might be indicator of Si-Ne because of how it shows un-proportional relation of actual sensation and perceived sensation. This whole video seemed somehow un-proportional in it’s perception overall. Like this whole scenario, how it place emphasis on certain things and devaluate others (e.g. buterfly shines and it’s environment is in shades of grey), how some elements are static while others are in move, etc. 
Ofc you are right that „In films/animations the use of colors conveys emotional tones and the contrast of the colors used in different shots can posses a metaphorical content but whether cognition can be observed in the use colors depends on what kind of meaning you can extract from the use of them.” but I also think that filming technique / colors used are meaningful on it’s own. Take for example how French New Wave directors (like Godard) changed filming technique not only to convey metaphorical meaning in their movies, but to show general contestation of mainstream cinema - by opposing it’s techniques. What I’m trying to say is that form used in film/animation may have meaning in itself.


That shot on 1:17 made me thing about Gamma too. 1:03 I might associate with Ni, yep. 

To sum up, I agree that this video have qualities of introverted prception and metaphorical content, but distinguishing whether it is Si or Ni - that I find more difficult. Overall impression of it made me think about Si, but, to be honest, I find quite difficult to verbalize why… I think it was generally bit „too soft” for Ni, since Ni is always carring content of subconscious extroverted sensing. That subcoscious element of Se I find in True Detective opening, which was mentioned before, and also in, for example, The Vikings opening (the latter might even be Se - Ni). No so much it this video we discussing. I’m not going to insist though, since I don’t find it that important and I think that distinguishing between introverted perception might be tricky. 


If you think I’m overanalysing Si and by Jung’s definitions this video cannot be representative of Si, because - for example - those kinds of metaphorical menings are exclusive for Ni, let me know.


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## Entropic

wolf12345 said:


> I think exaggerated colors might be indicator of Si-Ne because of how it shows un-proportional relation of actual sensation and perceived sensation.


That entirely depends. Strong use of color can also be the realm of Se in its attempt to create force and be forceful. 



> To sum up, I agree that this video have qualities of introverted prception and metaphorical content, but distinguishing whether it is Si or Ni - that I find more difficult. Overall impression of it made me think about Si, but, to be honest, I find quite difficult to verbalize why… I think it was generally bit „too soft” for Ni, since Ni is always carring content of subconscious extroverted sensing. That subcoscious element of Se I find in True Detective opening, which was mentioned before, and also in, for example, The Vikings opening (the latter might even be Se - Ni). No so much it this video we discussing. I’m not going to insist though, since I don’t find it that important and I think that distinguishing between introverted perception might be tricky.


I don't think it must always be as obvious in its presentation though, hence differentiation of the functions is important. I have no real opinion on the Blood+ OP. Just as an example where Se is not nearly as pronounced, but there's a shiteload of Ni:


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## Pancreatic Pandora

wolf12345 said:


> @_Pancreatic Pandora_
> 
> Completely agree with your interpretations of this image, etc. I’d just like to point a fact, that Si don’t necessarily need to be linked with actual physical experience, like you mentioned (sensations of rain, laying in a bathtub). At least I think so; it don’t need to be linked in that exact way.
> 
> I’ve also thought about sense (feeling) of safety that this image evoke - hence why mentioned Si-Fi axis.
> 
> Let me quote C. G. Jung on Introverted Sensation Type (I’m quoting english version widely avaible on the net; don’t have guts to transale my own copy, athought I think the internet one is not perfectly translated…):
> 
> 
> 
> Etc.
> One might argue that even though impressions are so far removed from object it doesn’t negate the fact that those impressions have to be extracted from „an actual physical experience”. Perhaps, yes, but I think Jung used term „object” in broader, philosophical way; „object” may represent any kind of external stimulus, not necessarily a „thing”. Obvioulsy for intuition term „object” have even broader meaning, but that’s not the point.
> I think that „a sense of safety that comes from sharing a moment with a loved one during times of hardship ” might be an object of perception for Introverted Sensing. And this kind of perception might be easly converted into those kind of images you mentioned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just think that those kinds of symbolic interpretations, meanings, etc. are not exclusive for Ni.
> 
> 
> I think exaggerated colors might be indicator of Si-Ne because of how it shows un-proportional relation of actual sensation and perceived sensation. This whole video seemed somehow un-proportional in it’s perception overall. Like this whole scenario, how it place emphasis on certain things and devaluate others (e.g. buterfly shines and it’s environment is in shades of grey), how some elements are static while others are in move, etc.
> Ofc you are right that „In films/animations the use of colors conveys emotional tones and the contrast of the colors used in different shots can posses a metaphorical content but whether cognition can be observed in the use colors depends on what kind of meaning you can extract from the use of them.” but I also think that filming technique / colors used are meaningful on it’s own. Take for example how French New Wave directors (like Godard) changed filming technique not only to convey metaphorical meaning in their movies, but to show general contestation of mainstream cinema - by opposing it’s techniques. What I’m trying to say is that form used in film/animation may have meaning in itself.
> 
> 
> That shot on 1:17 made me thing about Gamma too. 1:03 I might associate with Ni, yep.
> 
> To sum up, I agree that this video have qualities of introverted prception and metaphorical content, but distinguishing whether it is Si or Ni - that I find more difficult. Overall impression of it made me think about Si, but, to be honest, I find quite difficult to verbalize why… I think it was generally bit „too soft” for Ni, since Ni is always carring content of subconscious extroverted sensing. That subcoscious element of Se I find in True Detective opening, which was mentioned before, and also in, for example, The Vikings opening (the latter might even be Se - Ni). No so much it this video we discussing. I’m not going to insist though, since I don’t find it that important and I think that distinguishing between introverted perception might be tricky.
> 
> 
> If you think I’m overanalysing Si and by Jung’s definitions this video cannot be representative of Si, because - for example - those kinds of metaphorical menings are exclusive for Ni, let me know.


Alright, I see what you mean. I still lean to gamma and Ni-Se but sure, judging from the video alone it would be hard to tell them apart, it's not definite. I think when we get to see the woman's face at 0:59 (it's a very brief image) we are shown a very crude and desperate expression of pain, it could be Se in the sense that it's attempting to convey objective "impact" rather than someone's subjective experience of sensation. Or not, as we seem to agree, the video alone leaves room for multiple interpretations. Using the example of the butterfly, butterflies can also be symbolic. In Japanese culture they typically represent someone's soul, I believe. Could be Ni too. But the use of color and movement in this video could point to multiple functions. Se does not actually mean it will attempt to recreate a sensation in a purely "objective" manner but, instead, it wants to exhalt the qualities of the object, it wants to create impact, to make a strong impression and to explore the outside world. Due to the fact it doesn't necessarily manifest as a copy of objective sensations it can look like Si.

And my understanding of Si is rather rudimentary and intuitive, maybe @To_august has something to say regarding how Si-egos interpret symbolism.

Oh! I was just thinking at 0:17, where there's several people standing apart from each other, the distance between the people involved could be a metaphor for their psychological distance and the relationships between them, making it Fi.


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## To_august

Pancreatic Pandora said:


> And my understanding of Si is rather rudimentary and intuitive, maybe @_To_august_ has something to say regarding how Si-egos interpret symbolism.


Symbolism in a Ni way doesn't usually catch my attention. It exists as a sort of simple knowledge that for example rain represents sadness or cuckoo represents fate. They are known from literature and experience, but it's not something that I genuinely pay attention to. 

For example rose - a symbol of love. When I encounter one, be it a real flower or a picture of one, my first associations would be connected with sensory characteristics. It's a mixture of hue, softness, smell that evokes impressions of beauty, harmony, innocence and whatever other images which have nothing to do with a rose itself. It's not easy to describe this with words, but it feels like a meaningful sensory experience. Not meaningful as in representing a specific symbol, but in a sensory way, if it makes any sense. Or another example - the sea. It can trigger sensation compositions of deepness, blueness, serenity, force etc., which merge in order to be shaped into who knows what impression.

Regarding the video. I think it's predominantly Pe. Changing scenes and images resemble Pe wanting to cover a broader range of things. Si isn't really fascinated with brief shots and quick interchanges whether they are present in movies or music, or somewhere else. I used to think of Si as a more harmonic function, at least for me it's like that. But maybe this is just the nature of all intros.

Scene with two people sitting in a bathroom can be interpreted from different perspectives I think. I got mainly feeling of friendly comfort and intimacy from it, but it wasn't really eye-catching for me. I liked scenes in the beginning with rain and wind, and a scene a bit further with scattering and bouncing multicolored marbles more. Don't even know why, but they where appealing in some way


----------



## Word Dispenser

* *











What Quadra is being represented here? Or, is it, perhaps, a mix of misfits? roud:


----------



## Straystuff

Wanna try this one?  It's some kind of feeler dominant song with Si but Alpha or Delta? 






Also this video. Gamma maybe? Beta even? His fears chasing him untill he has the power to face them: definitely Se and Ni.


----------



## Straystuff

By the way it's funny, I seem to have a pretty strong Ni + Se preference :') I love 90% of Beta and Gamma music but songs from other quadras are usually kind of meh to me. 

Also I find gamma Fi really compelling 'cause 1) I find the stoicism kind of mysterious and badass 2) even if they don't say a lot about the emotional athmosphere with words and facial expressions I can pick the main idea up from the symbolism 3) I guess this is a dom-Fe thing but I sometimes struggle with how I feel about things. In those situations I seem to turn to Fi music for validation, "someone else feels this too so it's an ok thing to feel". Fi is often a bit too blunt and straightforward for me but Gammas Ni filters it nicely. All in all I find Gamma songs great self-reflection -music.


----------



## Word Dispenser

@Straystuff: First one... I'm not sure if I'd agree that Si is the focus. It seems rather rough around the edges in an Se way, particularly the lyrics and the way it's sung-- A lot of it seems focused on frolicsome fun, rather than comfort. But hey, I'm no expert.

Second one? I can definitely agree with Se. It may be Beta on the Se+Ti side of things.


----------



## Straystuff

Word Dispenser said:


> @Straystuff: First one... I'm not sure if I'd agree that Si is the focus. It seems rather rough around the edges in an Se way, particularly the lyrics and the way it's sung-- A lot of it seems focused on frolicsome fun, rather than comfort.  But hey, I'm no expert.


You might be right, I posted that video here 'cause I'm all but expert on this sort of typing and that's why I try to learn by staking this thread and people's opinions :')

Anyway: I figured that the lazy, happy summer athmosphere might be Si. I think Se anything, even happiness, is more dramatic maybe? Tho my definition of Se and Si might be off. Also, I'm not sure about Fe vs. Fi on that song? The singer does sing about her feelings towards some guy but it might not go deep enough to be Fi. Thoughts?


----------



## Word Dispenser

Straystuff said:


> You might be right, I posted that video here 'cause I'm all but expert on this sort of typing and that's why I try to learn by staking this thread and people's opinions :')
> 
> Anyway: I figured that the lazy, happy summer athmosphere might be Si. I think Se anything, even happiness, is more dramatic maybe? Tho my definition of Se and Si might be off. Also, I'm not sure about Fe vs. Fi on that song? The singer does sing about her feelings towards some guy but it might not go deep enough to be Fi. Thoughts?


I dunno, the entire song seems weird, in that sense. The colours and everything are hazy and reflect what you might think of as Si orientation, but look at the way the song is being sung, and the song itself, and it's harshly contrasting. I might even say that it's almost mocking that haziness.

The people in this video are all being active-- Doing sensory oriented things. Blowing bubbles, playing in playgrounds, lying back and.. Singing. Uhm... Throwing a guitar around? Making out in a bathtub? 

Si? Nope. Se? Yep. And definitely Fe, as far as I'm concerned.

But, I might just be stereotyping or being silly, so... Perhaps someone else will be able to add something substantial to this.


----------



## To_august

Straystuff said:


> Wanna try this one?  It's some kind of feeler dominant song with Si but Alpha or Delta?


Not Delta. Too much Fe to my taste. 
Si I think is also unlikely. I don't feel the atmosphere like an Si is supposed to provide, ragged rhythm kind of ruins it a bit.


----------



## Straystuff

So Beta? I can't pick up Ni at all tho. More of a sensor song?


----------



## Word Dispenser

Straystuff said:


> So Beta? I can't pick up Ni at all tho. More of a sensor song?


Yup.

And I still want people to tell me what this group represents:


* *












roud:


----------



## The Exception

NSFW

Beta?


----------



## Entropic

Word Dispenser said:


> Yup.
> 
> And I still want people to tell me what this group represents:
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> roud:


Alpha. That's not so difficult now, is it? It actually seems like they are mocking gamma quadra too, like this is how they think gamma quadra is like?


----------



## kitsu

Porks and Habitation - The Daily Show - Video Clip | Comedy Central

Jon Stuart: ILE or... really awesome EIE with demonstrative Ne? He's good at creating a cheerful atmosphere that involves everyone, thrives on the love of the audience. Also he kinda seems too ethical to be Fi PoLR? I don't know.


----------



## Word Dispenser

Entropic said:


> Alpha. That's not so difficult now, is it? It actually seems like they are mocking gamma quadra too, like this is how they think gamma quadra is like?


Awesome. Well, I don't trust my own typing skills these days, so... But, I had suspected something of that general direction. :kitteh:


----------



## Word Dispenser

Merry blues said:


> Porks and Habitation - The Daily Show - Video Clip | Comedy Central
> 
> Jon Stuart: ILE or... really awesome EIE with demonstrative Ne? He's good at creating a cheerful atmosphere that involves everyone, thrives on the love of the audience. Also he kinda seems too ethical to be Fi PoLR? I don't know.


People often type him as ENTP in MBTI. I'm not so sure about it. I'm not even that sure that Stephen Colbert is actually an ILE. But, they're both quite often playing a role, so it's difficult to say.

You know what's good at playing a role? Fe in the ego. roud: 

At least in my experience.


----------



## Pancreatic Pandora

Not sure what to make of this band. Sometimes I see Se, then Ne, then Ni. Idk, opinions? I think maybe Delta...?


* *


----------



## Word Dispenser

Pancreatic Pandora said:


> Not sure what to make of this band. Sometimes I see Se, then Ne, then Ni. Idk, opinions? I think maybe Delta...?
> 
> 
> * *


Haha, omg, I love Deerhoof. roud:

I see what you mean though, they're tricky to type. I'm gonna say a_ tentative_ Delta, though. That's gotta be Ne, eh? They're fun. :kitteh:

A lot of what you'd think is Ni, I think is just random Ne exploration. But, I dunno.


----------



## Pancreatic Pandora

Word Dispenser said:


> Haha, omg, I love Deerhoof. roud:
> 
> I see what you mean though, they're tricky to type. I'm gonna say a_ tentative_ Delta, though. That's gotta be Ne, eh? They're fun. :kitteh:
> 
> A lot of what you'd think is Ni, I think is just random Ne exploration. But, I dunno.


I thought so. Upon taking a closer look Ni does not fit at all, instead I see a lot of Pe in general.

They are so weird o.o . My ESI bf introduced me to them.


----------



## Word Dispenser

Pancreatic Pandora said:


> I thought so. Upon taking a closer look Ni does not fit at all, instead I see a lot of Pe in general.
> 
> They are so weird o.o . My ESI bf introduced me to them.


I don't even know what it means to be Pe, but if that's it, then totally. Wild and energetic Peh.

Although, an ESI being hooked on that stuff is oddness. :3


----------



## Elyasis

Entropic said:


> Alpha. That's not so difficult now, is it? It actually seems like they are mocking gamma quadra too, like this is how they think gamma quadra is like?
> 
> 
> * *


If it was meant to be mocking, I didn't see it. Overall all I felt empathy with Petyr Baelish, IT consultant. Trying to help, but always being unappreciated and left out of the group. I don't sniff people... but so what if he does? Maybe he is simply better at recognizing others through their scent... It's not really hurting anyone if he's a little eccentric.


----------



## Entropic

Elyasis said:


> If it was meant to be mocking, I didn't see it. Overall all I felt empathy with Petyr Baelish, IT consultant. Trying to help, but always being unappreciated and left out of the group. I don't sniff people... but so what if he does? Maybe he is simply better at recognizing others through their scent... It's not really hurting anyone if he's a little eccentric.


No, I meant the clip WD linked, not Petyr Baelish one lol.


----------



## Elyasis

Entropic said:


> No, I meant the clip WD linked, not Petyr Baelish one lol.


----------



## Cellar Door

In flames! Claimed for team Alpha.


----------



## Entropic

Cellar Door said:


> In flames! Claimed for team Alpha.


WTF. I haven't heard In Flames in a long time. It's a big difference from songs like these: 






And I wouldn't have put old In Flames as alpha.


----------



## Pancreatic Pandora

Word Dispenser said:


> I don't even know what it means to be Pe, but if that's it, then totally. Wild and energetic Peh.


I find it hard to describe. Pe feels, to me, as if having less of a point to it, like doing things for their own sake, especially Ne. More exploratory and unstable. Energetic. Creative. I think I could see Se in the Exit Only and We do Parties videos.



> Although, an ESI being hooked on that stuff is oddness. :3


Probably, just as much as you being into gamma stuff roud:.


----------



## Word Dispenser

Pancreatic Pandora said:


> Probably, just as much as you being into gamma stuff roud:.


I-know-right!?


----------



## Cellar Door

Entropic said:


> WTF. I haven't heard In Flames in a long time. It's a big difference from songs like these:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I wouldn't have put old In Flames as alpha.


Haha yeah, I absolutely love In Flames, my favorite band of all time. I know what you're talking about though, and there was definitly a crossover point from the more hardcore stuff that greatly increased my coolness/credibility in metal circles. Check out this song, which I love and sounds like it's going to be pretty hardcore in the beginning.






Then if you skip to 1:10 and it starts to build into the early 1:20s and it's like something you don't see very often in metal. It helps that the singer of In Flames has one of the best screams in history of human kind.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong about In Flames, I just wanted to have at least one good band associated with the Alpha quadra. It seems like the alpha quadra always get's characterized with goofy stuff that sucks. I just hate all of it, zero intensity, no impact. 

Even taking a non-metal song, I've listened to this like 1000 times. I bet most people would give this to the beta quadra.


----------



## Serpent

Which quadra would post such a picture?


----------



## Word Dispenser

FearAndTrembling said:


> I think Riker is an ESTP and Guinan is an INFJ:


Haha. Awesome.

And... Possibly. I've watched only a bit into the second season, I think, and I have some way to go before I'm introduced to Guinan.

I've actually found it difficult to place Riker, but my husfiend is quite insistent upon his ESTPity, and he's seen the entire series now, I think.

Regardless, he's one of my favourite characters for his enthusiasm for learning. roud:


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Word Dispenser said:


> Haha. Awesome.
> 
> And... Possibly. I've watched only a bit into the second season, I think, and I have some way to go before I'm introduced to Guinan.
> 
> I've actually found it difficult to place Riker, but my husfiend is quite insistent upon his ESTPity, and he's seen the entire series now, I think.
> 
> Regardless, he's one of my favourite characters for his enthusiasm for learning. roud:


Riker is awesome. 

I think the show Boardwalk Empire is very Beta. It is a gangster show. Great show. The show is based in Prohibition era America. It is about violence, gangsters and money. That sort of thing. Al Capone, Lucky Luciano, JFK's father, Bugsy Siegel, Elliot Ness. All there. The star is Steve Buscemi's character, Nucky Thompson. Who I believe is an ISTP.

I love the beginning scene. I think it is Ni-Se, what do you think? It actually tells the whole theme of the show.

Nucky just waits it out, and here come the answer. Booze. Or other people. Or even immigrants coming to America. They are the bottles. They crash. Nucky flows.






Here is a scene with the two biggest gangsters in American history. Lucky Luciano and Al Capone. Capone is the ESTP hothead. Wants to take on the world. Luciano is pushing Fe and a more measured approach. I think Luciano may be an ENFJ. Capone is the guy with the cigar, Luciano is across the table.


----------



## Word Dispenser

FearAndTrembling said:


> Riker is awesome.
> 
> I think the show Boardwalk Empire is very Beta. It is a gangster show. Great show. The show is based in Prohibition era America. It is about violence, gangsters and money. That sort of thing. Al Capone, Lucky Luciano, JFK's father, Bugsy Siegel, Elliot Ness. All there. The star is Steve Buscemi's character, Nucky Thompson. Who I believe is an ISTP.
> 
> I love the beginning scene. I think it is Ni-Se, what do you think? It actually tells the whole theme of the show.
> 
> Nucky just waits it out, and here come the answer. Booze. Or other people. Or even immigrants coming to America. They are the bottles. They crash. Nucky flows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a scene with the two biggest gangsters in American history. Lucky Luciano and Al Capone. Capone is the ESTP hothead. Wants to take on the world. Luciano is pushing Fe and a more measured approach. I think Luciano may be an ENFJ. Capone is the guy with the cigar, Luciano is across the table.


Oh, I have no idea about the Quadrafication of the show, it doesn't really appeal to me, but my husfiend loves it. He's an INFJ as well, so there you go!

He's typed the bug-eyed mob-boss dude as an ENTJ, last I checked. There was an ISxJ, an ISTP... And he was fairly disappointed that his favourite characters kept being killed off. :crying:

The opening does strike as Ni-Se, at the very least. And the scene shown _does _strike as Beta.

I wouldn't be surprised if the show was a healthy mix of Beta and Gamma.


----------



## Word Dispenser

@FearAndTrembling: Ah, yes. Steve Buscemi. That's who he typed as an ENTJ. Sorry, didn't see you mention him. :kitteh:


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Word Dispenser said:


> @_FearAndTrembling_: Ah, yes. Steve Buscemi. That's who he typed as an ENTJ. Sorry, didn't see you mention him. :kitteh:


I got that, when you called him the "bug eyed one" lol. He is a weird looking motherfucker. They had a running joke about this in the movie Fargo, which is great. Buscemi is a criminal and the witnesses describe him to cops as "weird looking" and stuff like that. He is cold as ice either way. He is like a vampire. Like Carl Sagan and Dick Cheney. ISTP and ENTJ can look alike. ENTJ are reserved and cold. Like ISTP. lol. I never thought of Nucky/Buscemi as an ENTJ, but I can see him being one. I think he is an ISTP though. He didn't start as a leader type. He tried to do the right thing, but couldn't survive that way. He wanted a simpler life. It wasn't a drive to power. He wasn't a natural leader. He was best at breaking down a situation and finding out how to do it better than everybody else, by himself.


----------



## Word Dispenser

FearAndTrembling said:


> I got that, when you called him the "bug eyed one" lol. He is a weird looking motherfucker. They had a running joke about this in the movie Fargo, which is great. Buscemi is a criminal and the witnesses describe him to cops as "weird looking" and stuff like that. He is cold as ice either way. He is like a vampire. Like Carl Sagan and Dick Cheney. ISTP and ENTJ can look alike. ENTJ are reserved and cold. Like ISTP. lol. I never thought of Nucky/Buscemi as an ENTJ, but I can see him being one. I think he is an ISTP though. He didn't start as a leader type. He tried to do the right thing, but couldn't survive that way. He wanted a simpler life. It wasn't a drive to power.


I think the reason that an ENTJ and an ISTP can look similar is because they are both rationally dominant, they are both feeling inferior. It's just wondering whether this is extraverted thinking we're seeing, with a pull towards introverted feeling, or if it's introverted thinking, with a pull towards extraverted feeling.

So, we then must ask ourselves-- Put simply: Does he hate Ne, or does he hate Si? From others, does he love Fe, or does he love Fi? Which tends to leak out, Fe or Fi? Namely, what does he value?

Does he seem Gamma, or Beta in interaction style?

I have no idea about his type, as I haven't analyzed him myself. But, as Ms. Frizzle always says, if you keep asking questions, you'll keep getting answers. :kitteh:


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Word Dispenser said:


> I think the reason that an ENTJ and an ISTP can look similar is because they are both rationally dominant, they are both feeling inferior. It's just wondering whether this is extraverted thinking we're seeing, with a pull towards introverted feeling, or if it's introverted thinking, with a pull towards extraverted feeling.
> 
> So, we then must ask ourselves-- Put simply: Does he hate Ne, or does he hate Si? From others, does he love Fe, or does he love Fi? Which tends to leak out, Fe or Fi? Namely, what does he value?
> 
> Does he seem Gamma, or Beta in interaction style?
> 
> I have no idea about his type, as I haven't analyzed him myself. But, as Ms. Frizzle always says, if you keep asking questions, you'll keep getting answers. :kitteh:


Yeah, Bill Gates is another like that. He could be an ENTJ or INTP. Nucky does what is right in the moment, and has Fe. He worked even as a little kid to try to save his sister's life. Against his father's wishes and pride. He was softer than his father. Who was stubborn and would not accept charity for any reason. That is another reason I think he is an ISTP. He has always had Fe. Like when he first got a job at rich people's houses. He told his brother he has no idea how some people live. And they get all their money from what him and his brother are doing now, sitting on a beach. While everybody else works their finger to the bone for scraps. He was sentimental, and a boy scout. 

His biggest strength was deconstructing how things worked.


----------



## Word Dispenser

FearAndTrembling said:


> Yeah, Bill Gates is another like that. He could be an ENTJ or INTP. Nucky does what is right in the moment, and has Fe. He worked even as a little kid to try to save his sister's life. Against his father's wishes and pride. He was softer than his father. Who was stubborn and would not accept charity for any reason. That is another reason I think he is an ISTP. He has always had Fe. Like when he first got a job at rich people's houses. He told his brother he has no idea how some people live. And they get all their money from what him and his brother are doing now, sitting on a beach. While everybody else works their finger to the bone for scraps. He was sentimental, and a boy scout.
> 
> His biggest strength was deconstructing how things worked.


Well, as said, I haven't watched the show, so I don't know the character. 

From what you're describing, I'm not sure why that couldn't mean Fi, either. Boy scout tendencies, being softer than his father. All of these external tendencies could be anything, and aren't really showing me internal motivations-- So I dunno. roud:


----------



## Word Dispenser

vintage stardust said:


> Gaiman's American God's is supposed to be really good. Ocean at the end of the Lane is pretty cool. So is Neverwhere. I've read a few others; Coraline and The Graveyard Book. More for young kids.


I actually got, 'Ocean at the end of the lane,' as a birthday present recently, and I enjoyed it immensely. Started and finished it in a day. :kitteh:

I'd say it's much, much better than, 'Stardust' was. Still in the afterglow of it. Trying to re-read a book I read a long time ago, but I should probably let the 'afterglow' run its course first. I will definitely check out more of his books now. It's nice to find a fresh new author.

Definitely Ne-exploration-- He does horror in a very Ne-way (Reminds me of the horror I was attracted to as a kid, and the _way _I was attracted to it). I bet it's often mistaken for Ni, though.


----------



## Word Dispenser

Alpha, probably ESE. :kitteh:


----------



## To_august

Think this belongs to Alpha NT


----------



## aniso

@To_august That's a genius invention right there, love the construction.  

Other than that: any ideas of this video or band? Love their music and rhythm, though overall they seem to have some pretty dark themes in their lyrics, and this video is really cool in it's style, but also...seems a bit dark/violent at some parts (not a pleasant thing, to my mind). Anyway, a good video and an awesome song.


----------



## Word Dispenser

Gamma?







Gamma?


----------



## Verity

Word Dispenser said:


> Gamma?


The first one seems pretty Gamma, and specifically ESFp. The focus in the lyrics seem to be on sensation and personal feelings from an extraverted percieving point of view:
"I want to swim away but don't know how
Sometimes it feels just like I'm falling in the ocean
Let the waves up take me down
Let the hurricane set in motion (yeah)
Let the rain of what I feel right now...come down"

To me it seems like he's sad because he can't really understand or take control of his _current _situation, coupled with the inability to see how things will be in the _future_. His strong Se is of no use, and his Ni is too weak to help him out.

The second video seems more Delta, very Fi and Ne. The lyrics are more focused on possibilities, and the imagery in the video does not seem abstract in an Ni-way. I mean, it seems inspired by old movies and the vibe is very nostalgic. Compare it to this which is a good example of Se/Ni imagery in my opinion:


----------



## Word Dispenser

Verity said:


> The first one seems pretty Gamma, and specifically ESFp. The focus in the lyrics seem to be on sensation and personal feelings from an extraverted percieving point of view:
> "I want to swim away but don't know how
> Sometimes it feels just like I'm falling in the ocean
> Let the waves up take me down
> Let the hurricane set in motion (yeah)
> Let the rain of what I feel right now...come down"
> 
> To me it seems like he's sad because he can't really understand or take control of his _current _situation, coupled with the inability to see how things will be in the _future_. His strong Se is of no use, and his Ni is too weak to help him out.
> 
> The second video seems more Delta, very Fi and Ne. The lyrics are more focused on possibilities, and the imagery in the video does not seem abstract in an Ni-way. I mean, it seems inspired by old movies and the vibe is very nostalgic. Compare it to this which is a good example of Se/Ni imagery in my opinion:


First video seemed ESI to me, more than SEE-- But, I could see arguments for SEE. I just think there is a _slightly _better grasp of Ni than you'd see in SEE.

Second video, I'd say is more Gamma-oriented. In fact, I thought that an argument would be made for Beta, if not Gamma, because of what seemed like obvious Se-Ni to me.

I don't see nostalgia here-- It could be argued that there are nostalgic elements based off of old film, but I don't necessarily see that. I think there is a leaning towards crude symbolic Ni filtered through Se, which would point towards Gamma-SF. I thought SEE, if anything.

I wasn't 100 % on either of them, though. But, where do you see Ne? Even the lyrics in the second video aren't really showing any Ne, imo.


----------



## Verity

Word Dispenser said:


> First video seemed ESI to me, more than SEE-- But, I could see arguments for SEE. I just think there is a _slightly _better grasp of Ni than you'd see in SEE.


The Ni in the first video seems so simple or one-dimensional, it just takes a basic metaphorical concept and goes with it. It's basically: I feel like I'm in an ocean and my tears are like rain. From my experience an ESI would go deeper into the rabbit's hole of abstract subjective associations so to say, imo. The video is also very literal; a guy sets up a play about a guy who goes into the ocean. Then everyone leaves him because of the rain(His emotions). He does not understand why because he lacks the introspection needed to do so. That's my theory.

Edit: I also think that if the creator of the song had been an ESI or even ILI, the song itself would be darker and more dramatic. If you ignore the lyrics it's quite a happy and cheerful song. I would have never thought Gamma if I had not heard the lyrics. Reminds me of that song about fireflies. 



> Second video, I'd say is more Gamma-oriented. In fact, I thought that an argument would be made for Beta, if not Gamma, because of what seemed like obvious Se-Ni to me.
> 
> I don't see nostalgia here-- It could be argued that there are nostalgic elements based off of old film, but I don't necessarily see that. I think there is a leaning towards crude symbolic Ni filtered through Se, which would point towards Gamma-SF. I thought SEE, if anything.
> 
> I wasn't 100 % on either of them, though. But, where do you see Ne? Even the lyrics in the second video aren't really showing any Ne, imo.


I see Ne in my interpretation of the lyrics. Basically: "I saw potential in you, but you let me down at every turn and I've finally given up. Now just tell me that you loved me once so I can cling on to that memory, but I guess you don't even care enough to do that." I may be making too wide intuitive leaps here, but it just doesn't seem like something an Se or Ni-ego type would write.

The video could be Se/Ni, but it seems like it uses pretty common abstract associations like innocence symbolized by a woman clad in white, standing in places people commonly associate with romance, such as at a hillside or at a bench in dim streetlight while sadness is associated with falling leaves. She meets a man dressed in black, they fall in love and then he leaves her alone and she becomes sad. Add black and white filter. It's all pretty common themes and the symbolism doesn't seem that subjective. I'm not saying it's unoriginal, but I see little of that slightly "weird" Ni-symbolism that makes you wonder "What is that supposed to mean?" like in the Sigur Rós video for example. But again, it might just be weak Ni filtered through strong Se. I guess I see it as nostalgic in the sense that it seems to be about the disappointment that comes from having a child's naive idea of love which goes along with my understanding of how Si sometimes has difficulty adapting to reality, just like Ni, but whereas Ni is timeless in a sense, Si is often rooted in the past. But that's me rationalizing the vibe I get. God, this all becomes so subjective!


----------



## Word Dispenser

Verity said:


> The Ni in the first video seems so simple or one-dimensional, it just takes a basic metaphorical concept and goes with it. It's basically: I feel like I'm in an ocean and my tears are like rain. From my experience an ESI would go deeper into the rabbit's hole of abstract subjective associations so to say, imo. The video is also very literal; a guy sets up a play about a guy who goes into the ocean. Then everyone leaves him because of the rain(His emotions). He does not understand why because he lacks the introspection needed to do so. That's my theory.
> 
> Edit: I also think that if the creator of the song had been an ESI or even ILI, the song itself would be darker and more dramatic. If you ignore the lyrics it's quite a happy and cheerful song. I would have never thought Gamma if I had not heard the lyrics. Reminds me of that song about fireflies.


You _do _get the symbolism that 'the play about a man in the sea' is actually a direct reference/symbol of Moby Dick, right? With Ahab and his unattainable whale? If not, there's more to this than you perhaps realize. It probably changes the entire underlying message of the song.

Unless its Jonah and the Whale, in which case that might make more sense? 

Or it may just be a direct symbol of himself. 

More here about what the song/video is about:


> Content
> 
> The song contrasts an upbeat rhythm and light melodies with Ryan Delahoussaye's erhu and lamenting lyrics typical of "Hate Me" and other songs written by lead singer Justin Furstenfeld. The feelings conveyed by the song reflect Furstenfeld's real-life battle with depression and suicidal tendencies.
> 
> The lyrics convey the first-person account of a "normal boy" who has fallen or jumped off the bow of a ship and the thoughts that pass through the boy's mind as he loses the will to keep afloat by treading water. His final thought is of his beloved as he eventually concedes to drowning:
> “ I thought of just your face, relaxed and floated into space ”
> 
> In the final verse the song takes on a deeper meaning as the lyrics reveal that the initial story of the boy drowning was just a dream spurred by feelings of grief over the loss of a loved one, presumably the woman whose face gave him comfort as he imagined he was drowning. The dream is referred to lyrically as "Midnight's late reminder of the loss of her, the one I love." The song then indicates that he wishes, like in the dream, that he could slip "into the ocean, end it all."
> 
> According to a VH1-online article about the band, "Into the Ocean" has had an impact on many listeners who may have been contemplating suicide.
> 
> "Into the Ocean," with Delahoussaye's seductive violin siren call and plucked mandolin, openly contemplates a death wish with so much honesty, fans write to the band, claiming tracks like this have prevented their own suicidal impulses.
> 
> "I love Justin's lyrics," says guitarist [CB] Hudson, ..."Our music touches people in the heart. I'm really proud of that."
> 
> "If I have saved others, I don't know what to say," admits Justin. "But if I can do that for them, why the fuck can't I do that for myself?"[2]





> I see Ne in my interpretation of the lyrics. Basically: "I saw potential in you, but you let me down at every turn and I've finally given up. Now just tell me that you loved me once so I can cling on to that memory, but I guess you don't even care enough to do that." I may be making too wide intuitive leaps here, but it just doesn't seem like something an Se or Ni-ego type would write.
> 
> The video could be Se/Ni, but it seems like it uses pretty common abstract associations like innocence symbolized by a woman clad in white, standing in places people commonly associate with romance, such as at a hillside or at a bench in dim streetlight while sadness is associated with falling leaves. She meets a man dressed in black, they fall in love and then he leaves her alone and she becomes sad. Add black and white filter. It's all pretty common themes and the symbolism doesn't seem that subjective. I'm not saying it's unoriginal, but I see little of that slightly "weird" Ni-symbolism that makes you wonder "What is that supposed to mean?" like in the Sigur Rós video for example. But again, it might just be weak Ni filtered through strong Se. I guess I see it as nostalgic in the sense that it seems to be about the disappointment that comes from having a child's naive idea of love which goes along with my understanding of how Si sometimes has difficulty adapting to reality, just like Ni, but whereas Ni is timeless in a sense, Si is often rooted in the past. But that's me rationalizing the vibe I get. God, this all becomes so subjective!


Haha, I know what you mean. Yeah, it's very subjective-- Experiential even. It depends on what you know. You can't always grasp personal Ni symbolism if you don't know what that person knows. That's the entire _point _of Ni-symbolism, really-- 'I don't care if you don't get this, _I_ get this'. Ne is much more universal-- It wants everyone to know what its talking about. This is why Ne-egos are good at getting the point of complex concepts. Connecting the patterns and seeing the underlying theme.

In this video, I would say that the black vs. white is a common enough symbol for good/evil, innocence/corruption-- But, there appears to be a very personal slant with the subjective Fi. You can see that his blackness is corrupting her whiteness, at the very least. I mean, I could really go into depth analyzing this, but I won't. I see it as being very crude Ni. Not to say that it couldn't be Delta, as there are crude Ni-users in the Delta quadra as well... I mean, it kinda nags at me-- It really _could _be Delta... But, therein lies the snag of my worldview. A world of coulds. :kitteh:

I _do _think your interpretation of the lyrics as being Ne is kinda stretching it. It's very literal, imo. But, the Fi is just drowning everything else out for me, haha.


----------



## Verity

Word Dispenser said:


> You _do _get the symbolism that 'the play about a man in the sea' is actually a direct reference/symbol of Moby Dick, right? With Ahab and his unattainable whale? If not, there's more to this than you perhaps realize. It probably changes the entire underlying message of the song.
> 
> Unless its Jonah and the Whale, in which case that might make more sense?
> 
> Or it may just be a direct symbol of himself.
> 
> More here about what the song/video is about:


The whale seemed incidental, I kinda thought it was there to symbolize how living sometimes feels like taking on a giant whale for a depressed person. Or maybe it was to show how deep the ocean feels? It's all about interpretation. I'm not saying there is no Ni-symbolism in the video, you can spend hours trying to figure those things out, but I don't think you will get anywhere in reality if you do that in a vacuum, the only way I can see us getting somewhere is by comparing. But it's still arbitrary. 

I'm just saying, if you contrast the video against other examples of introverted Gamma-music, it just doesn't seem that abstract. I will not argue that it's very possible that the singer is an introvert, but the vibe I get _from the video_ is very much Fi filtered through an extroverted percieving function. It's really hard to draw a line and say: This is why it doesn't seem introverted. So don't take this as anything but me expressing what I feel in my gut. All those layers that you add by learning more about the song is not actually changing the core of it, it's like: Okay, it was just a dream and there's a whale on the stage, the song is still about feeling like he is trampling water in the ocean because he is so depressed.



> Haha, I know what you mean. Yeah, it's very subjective-- Experiential even. It depends on what you know. You can't always grasp personal Ni symbolism if you don't know what that person knows. That's the entire _point _of Ni-symbolism, really-- 'I don't care if you don't get this, _I_ get this'. Ne is much more universal-- It wants everyone to know what its talking about. This is why Ne-egos are good at getting the point of complex concepts. Connecting the patterns and seeing the underlying theme.
> 
> I _do _think your interpretation of the lyrics as being Ne is kinda stretching it. It's very literal, imo. But, the Fi is just drowning everything else out for me, haha.


Yes. I'm like, what can I say, Ni intrigues me as an Ni-valuing type. This video does not. That does not mean it's Ne-symbolism, simply that I'm not interested in the story. I agree that the Fi is overflowing. It could be made by someone who has Ni as demonstrative function I guess. This INFj girl I used to date made art that on the surface seemed very Ni-esque, but she found it really easy to explain the references, and _it all made sense in the context._ It was something like: "I thought about the forest, and then I thought about a girl walking in the forest, which made me think of Red Riding Hood, and then the Grimm brothers, and then I thought about witches..." etc. There was really no mystical intuitive jump made in her head, it was just that the painting made me think about something entirely else than what she was describing.


----------



## Word Dispenser

Delta.


----------



## Verity

Word Dispenser said:


> Delta.


Agree.










Beta?


----------



## Vermillion

i cant play the piano said:


> gamma grudges will last forever. betas are big on getting emotional reactions out of people so when they hold a grudge it will be obvious to all those who witness it but gammas are not as forthright so they could hate your guts but no one will know EXCEPT you so you're left with no option but to take it because if you lash out or call them out you will just look crazy. you could try to beat them at their own game though. i wonder how one could go about doing that.
> 
> imo beta is about immediate revenge yea


Gammas are actually super forthright and can outmatch betas in "saying it as it is". Se, Fi, and Te means they're not likely to hold in their grudges for the sake of appeasing their environment. I mean, if a gamma really hates you, they will hate you with a passion, but they will have no qualms with expressing their hatred even if a million people are listening. In that moment, the only thing that takes precedence is their opinion. Never met a gamma who plays mind games with people yet.

In my experience alphas and deltas are likelier to play mind games cause they don't like you, but they don't want to stir up conflict either. A gamma, especially an SEE or ESI, won't think that way. Conflict is necessary and opinions are natural.

Betas tend to either exaggerate their emotions, or keep it overly "real" -- so "real" that they ignore several aspects of the situation so that they can dilute something down to the simplest and most practically applicable statement (beta STs love doing this). As for simply "getting emotional reactions out of people", this is applicable to all 4s, 6s and 8s in the Enneagram. They like challenging people to see where they stand.



crashbandicoot said:


> a) I did not say anything about him being reckless with her feelings.


He is, though.



> b)him being sle doesnt have 1/16 chance. Not in any interpretion of socionics or that video.
> 
> c) not really. watch it again.


I'm referring to the lyrics


----------



## Psithurism

Word Dispenser said:


> The least likely to be vengeful are probably the Alphas, for some reason. Maybe we're just too lazy, and want to keep things pleasant, and that's generally why.


Which could actually make them the scariest when they do care enough to be vengeful. They could hug you to death.


----------



## Typhon

FearAndTrembling said:


> Well it is a subjective judging function lead. One could predict it would be a harsh critic and always "on". It doesn't perceive first, it projects hardened subjective logic/system. Ti-Se for example will ride your ass harder than Si-Te and Ni-Te and isn't even close imo.


Bear in mind a few things, first that LSI and LII are not simply Ti, but Ti and Fe. They go together...meaning that behind the structural logic of Ti there is a desire for people to be cheerful and emotionally generous. I see Ti types as slightly annoyed when I critisize their systems though this usually does not lead to conflict either, just it annoys them. I think it annoys them because they don't expect it, they see their own system as perfect as will the Fe dominant type who is generally not very critical minded. Secondly the behavior I was describing isn't typical of LSI I don't think because Se just has a better awareness of boundries and usually just senses the amount of pressure ncessary to acheive a goal, while LII might just lash out without a clear objective or goal.


----------



## Mr inappropriate

Night Huntress said:


> He is, though.


Sure but all men do that. :tongue:



Night Huntress said:


> I'm referring to the lyrics


I see. The only thing I understand from lyrics is that she is drawn to him while also knowing he can be dangerous.
Therefore, I based my opinions (almost) only on video.


----------



## To_august

Night Huntress said:


> Taylor Swift is as alpha as it gets. I'd say ESFJ, and her lyrics reflect this. They're all sensate and immediately (as opposed to idealistically) desirous. But she has been in beta-ish_ videos_ a lot these days. Blank Space, Style, Bad Blood... all of them are probably directed by some beta NF. You can't really survive in the industry without being beta (even pseudo-beta) these days, because that's the current social climate. All beta. You can't sit there in tousled hair waltzing about your long-lost loves any more. You have to have contoured cheeks, sharp eyeliner, and sing about power. The people love it. And she loves playing to their needs; that's why she is so successful in the first place.


I think her Style video is more Si-ish though. 

I mean, the way director put emphasis on visual soft aesthetics. I think it's the same guy who directed Lana's Summertime Sadness, where also the main emphasis of the video is about old photographic film style or something.

Other ones, yeah, seem like directed by someone from Beta.



> In my experience alphas and deltas are likelier to play mind games cause they don't like you, but they don't want to stir up conflict either. A gamma, especially an SEE or ESI, won't think that way. Conflict is necessary and opinions are natural.


True that. 

I can bear grudges for a long time and person wouldn't even know it until my revenge happens.:exterminate:


----------



## Typhon

Night Huntress said:


> Gammas are actually super forthright and can outmatch betas in "saying it as it is". Se, Fi, and Te means they're not likely to hold in their grudges for the sake of appeasing their environment. I mean, if a gamma really hates you, they will hate you with a passion, but they will have no qualms with expressing their hatred even if a million people are listening. In that moment, the only thing that takes precedence is their opinion. Never met a gamma who plays mind games with people yet.
> 
> In my experience alphas and deltas are likelier to play mind games cause they don't like you, but they don't want to stir up conflict either. A gamma, especially an SEE or ESI, won't think that way. Conflict is necessary and opinions are natural.
> 
> Betas tend to either exaggerate their emotions, or keep it overly "real" -- so "real" that they ignore several aspects of the situation so that they can dilute something down to the simplest and most practically applicable statement (beta STs love doing this). As for simply "getting emotional reactions out of people", this is applicable to all 4s, 6s and 8s in the Enneagram. They like challenging people to see where they stand.


Totally agree.


----------



## Vermillion

crashbandicoot said:


> Sure but all men do that. :tongue:


Lol, that's a generalization. Sure, a lot of men are emotionally oblivious, but not all.




> I see. The only thing I understand from lyrics is that she is drawn to him while also knowing he can be dangerous.
> Therefore, I based my opinions (almost) only on video.


Cool. I haven't watched the video, so it makes sense that I thought the lyrics were too general.



To_august said:


> I think her Style video is more Si-ish though.
> 
> I mean, the way director put emphasis on visual soft aesthetics. I think it's the same guy who directed Lana's Summertime Sadness, where also the main emphasis of the video is about old photographic film style or something.
> 
> Other ones, yeah, seem like directed by someone from Beta.


Style actually seems Ni and Fe to me... there's a lot of focus on different perspectives (all the mirrors and different glance angles) and the whole double exposure thing is almost blatantly ripped off True Detective's intro (even some of the poses are the same... couldn't they at least TRY???), which is pretty Ni because of how it shows relevant concepts and events playing out inside transparent outlines of people, almost like you can see through the people and understand what they're all about. 

The video is directed by the same guy, yeah. But I thought Summertime was done WAY more masterfully. Very Fi-Si and super painful to watch. Style just sucked. lol.


----------



## Word Dispenser

Verglas said:


> Which could actually make them the scariest when they do care enough to be vengeful. They could hug you to death.


Or tickle.

I bet that Japanese water drop torture thing was made by Alphas, too. :kitteh:


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Typhon said:


> Bear in mind a few things, first that LSI and LII are not simply Ti, but Ti and Fe. They go together...meaning that behind the structural logic of Ti there is a desire for people to be cheerful and emotionally generous. I see Ti types as slightly annoyed when I critisize their systems though this usually does not lead to conflict either, just it annoys them. I think it annoys them because they don't expect it, they see their own system as perfect as will the Fe dominant type who is generally not very critical minded. Secondly the behavior I was describing isn't typical of LSI I don't think because Se just has a better awareness of boundries and usually just senses the amount of pressure ncessary to acheive a goal, while LII might just lash out without a clear objective or goal.


They may desire for people to be "cheerful and emotionally generous", but it is through the Ti prism. Their Fe is a slave to their Ti. According to Jung.

I just don't see it, in practice or theory. Extroverted functions work with the facts on the ground more. It is willing to work with them more. I agree with Abraxas that Ni is more laid back than many people claim it to be. Ni-Te too.


----------



## Word Dispenser

FearAndTrembling said:


> I actually think Ti-Ne is the worst at this. The biggest meltdowns on this site have come from Ti doms. Nobody does it better. They also make a lot of threads in the suggestion forum. One particular I am thinking of has a kitten avatar. Also banned a billion times and spams threads in the suggestion forum.


Well, I'm probably one of the least likely to hold a grudge. I can't. I forget five minutes later. It's not even programmed into me.

I think there was a time when I was 11 years of age and I was upset, holding a grudge, and then all of a sudden I just went... "This is silly, and a waste of energy. What's the point?" And from then on, I couldn't hold a grudge to save my life. Even if I wanted to.


----------



## Typhon

FearAndTrembling said:


> They may desire for people to be "cheerful and emotionally generous", but it is through the Ti prism. Their Fe is a slave to their Ti. According to Jung.
> 
> I just don't see it, in practice or theory. Extroverted functions work with the facts on the ground more. It is willing to work with them more. I agree with Abraxas that Ni is more laid back than many people claim it to be. Ni-Te too.


I agree about Ni being more laid back than people usually give it credit for, Ni-Te and even Te-Ni.

But what is the subject matter, what are we discussing? I thought this was about complaining, and what functions it relates to(if any), lol?


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Word Dispenser said:


> Well, I'm probably one of the least likely to hold a grudge. I can't. I forget five minutes later. It's not even programmed into me.
> 
> I think there was a time when I was 11 years of age and I was upset, holding a grudge, and then all of a sudden I just went... "This is silly, and a waste of energy. What's the point?" And from then on, I couldn't hold a grudge to save my life. Even if I wanted to.


Aren't you Fi polr? What is there for you to get mad about? lol. You have no mechanism for resentment. They left that part out of you.


----------



## Word Dispenser

FearAndTrembling said:


> Aren't you Fi polr? What is there for you to get mad about? lol. You have no mechanism for resentment. They left that part out of you.


Yep. :kitteh:

Somehow, it seems like I got the good end of _that _deal.


----------



## Typhon

Word Dispenser said:


> Yep. :kitteh:
> 
> Somehow, it seems like I got the good end of _that _deal.


Do you feel the same way about sadness/dissapointment?


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Word Dispenser said:


> Yep. :kitteh:
> 
> Somehow, it seems like I got the good end of _that _deal.


I was using you as an example of Fe in another thread. lol. All these people keep saying they are Fe doms, and I'm like, "Word Dispenser uses more Fe than any of you motherfuckers." It probably isn't just Fe though, you also don't have an agenda. Fe often has an agenda.


----------



## Typhon

I have an agenda.


----------



## piano

Typhon said:


> Thats weird, because when I hold a grudge it is only because someone refuses to communicate with me. I used to hold grudges about little things, like insults, jokes etc, but now as I get older, I rarely hold grudges. I'm not sure how anyone could see me (or other gammas for that matter) as playing a game where we try to wear the person out with a silent grudge...that makes no sense to me. I'm the opposite..I try to get the person to communicate and talk, though it seems some people just don't want to and thats what hurts the most. I think the latter fact is pretty universal for everyone, regarless of type.
> 
> So no, gamma NTs don't play ethical games, its not we even understand much about these things to begin with!


possibly but that hasn't been my experience with them. i'm sure it has more to do with maturity than type itself and i don't usually experience it with gamma NTs but i've had it happen a lot with gamma SFs. the ones i've encountered thus far are fairly young since they are all roughly my age so, again, immaturity does tie into it. i've never experienced it with LIEs but there are a handful of ILIs i know who have acted this way

i'm confrontational by nature and i don't like having to deal with people who don't know how to confront issues directly, especially ones pertaining to me and something i have done and/or something they have done, so dealing with people who act that way (irrelevant of type and quadra) is grating




Night Huntress said:


> Gammas are actually super forthright and can outmatch betas in "saying it as it is". Se, Fi, and Te means they're not likely to hold in their grudges for the sake of appeasing their environment. I mean, if a gamma really hates you, they will hate you with a passion, but they will have no qualms with expressing their hatred even if a million people are listening. In that moment, the only thing that takes precedence is their opinion. Never met a gamma who plays mind games with people yet.
> 
> In my experience alphas and deltas are likelier to play mind games cause they don't like you, but they don't want to stir up conflict either. A gamma, especially an SEE or ESI, won't think that way. Conflict is necessary and opinions are natural.
> 
> Betas tend to either exaggerate their emotions, or keep it overly "real" -- so "real" that they ignore several aspects of the situation so that they can dilute something down to the simplest and most practically applicable statement (beta STs love doing this). As for simply "getting emotional reactions out of people", this is applicable to all 4s, 6s and 8s in the Enneagram. They like challenging people to see where they stand.


i think gammas are good at saying it like it is and i also agree that they'll hate a person no matter who's around, even if that person is well-liked by others. from what i've read and observed, they aren't going to put their feelings on the back burner just to maintain the peace. however i do find that quite a few of the ones i know go about this dislike/hate indirectly via mind games. they don't really fuck with people but they'll make comments about/to you that, to others, seem harmless but that, to you, are offensive. i'm not quite sure how to explain it and my opinion is definitely biased but i have noticed a pattern

eh i know a lot of ILIs who play mind games with people. it isn't even so much a matter of liking/disliking the person, they just seem to like saying things that could potentially trigger others (mainly insecurities), sort of like social experiments, and gauging their reactions. they don't outright insult the person but they will make a general negative statement just to see who takes it personally and who doesn't, because if someone does then they're inadvertently admitting they are that way/they do that thing. which is interesting because the ILIs may not have even been referring to them when they originally made the statement. actually, chances are high they weren't even thinking about them when they said/wrote it, so the person sort of insults themselves by taking offense. not sure if that makes sense, but that's been my experience with them

i think delta NFs are big on mind games, too, but SLIs and LSEs don't seem like they'd do too well with them. i can't see the alphas i know acting that way either. i find it's really easy to deal with alphas* in conflict-fueled situations because something as simple as complimenting them can change their view of you/the situation entirely. SEIs are a little different in that, if they really feel they've been crossed or wronged, they'll have a tougher time just letting things go. i've had them say/do passive-aggressive things to me but they are such futile attempts (imo at least) that they don't even affect me

i'm just getting into socionics, though, so i don't have a strong understanding of it just yet. these are just amateur observations i've made based on the little information i've gathered so far. i still have a lot to learn and so i like replies like this because they give me a lot to think about


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Word Dispenser said:


> Yep. :kitteh:
> 
> Somehow, it seems like I got the good end of _that _deal.


I wonder if Jung is Ne-Ti. Malcolm X is often listed as ESTP. He seems Fi polr. He doesn't think about himself at all and focuses on others. Similar to Jung. 

You are probably the least likely person to be banned. lol. I can't even imagine you blowing up. I brought up the fortune thread. Many different people come to you in that thread; I don't think you are disliked by anybody. You are essentially managing personalities in there too. Quite different ones. I would end up blasting somebody eventually. You never do.

But it reminded me of this quote Malcolm X scribbled. He was being interviewed and would once in a while just scribble down some thoughts. He left the paper there one time, and it said:

"Learn wisdom from the pupil of the eye that looks upon all things and yet is blind to self." (Persian poet)

The full verse is:



" 'Twere folly to thyself to be more kind, 
Or from Creation call thyself to mind. 
Learn wisdom from the pupil of the eye
That looks on all men yet to self is blind.


----------



## Word Dispenser

FearAndTrembling said:


> I was using you as an example of Fe in another thread. lol. All these people keep saying they are Fe doms, and I'm like, "Word Dispenser uses more Fe than any of you motherfuckers." It probably isn't just Fe though, you also don't have an agenda. Fe often has an agenda.


It's quite common to over-use the mobilizing function.

Also, I'm pretty good at being socially appropriate.. On the internet. It's a lot more obvious the ways my Fe is weak in the real world. :kitteh:

And, yeah, I lack an agenda, generally... Or anything structured at all, really. :laughing:


----------



## Word Dispenser

Typhon said:


> Do you feel the same way about sadness/dissapointment?


I still get sad and disappointed. It just doesn't last very long.


----------



## Word Dispenser

FearAndTrembling said:


> I wonder if Jung is Ne-Ti. Malcolm X is often listed as ESTP. He seems Fi polr. He doesn't think about himself at all and focuses on others. Similar to Jung.
> 
> You are probably the least likely person to be banned. lol. I can't even imagine you blowing up. I brought up the fortune thread. Many different people come to you in that thread; I don't think you are disliked by anybody. You are essentially managing personalities in there too. Quite different ones. I would end up blasting somebody eventually. You never do.
> 
> But it reminded me of this quote Malcolm X scribbled. He was being interviewed and would once in a while just scribble down some thoughts. He left the paper there one time, and it said:
> 
> "Learn wisdom from the pupil of the eye that looks upon all things and yet is blind to self." (Persian poet)
> 
> The full verse is:
> 
> 
> 
> " 'Twere folly to thyself to be more kind,
> Or from Creation call thyself to mind.
> Learn wisdom from the pupil of the eye
> That looks on all men yet to self is blind.


That's very interesting. 

I started reading one of his books several months ago, "Man and His Symbols," and I found that I related quite a lot to the way he looks at dreams and symbolism. I have always naturally looked at things that way, just never written it down and/or rationalized it externally, beyond small fragments of conversations. I could see other types as well for him, though.

I also think, if enneagram has any truth to it, that being a type 9 in it also supports this peaceful tendency with all types of people. Reinforces it.

I unfortunately don't know too much about Malcolm X, though, but makes sense that he's Beta. SLE would be a safe bet.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Word Dispenser said:


> That's very interesting.
> 
> I started reading one of his books several months ago, "Man and His Symbols," and I found that I related quite a lot to the way he looks at dreams and symbolism. I have always naturally looked at things that way, just never written it down and/or rationalized it externally, beyond small fragments of conversations. I could see other types as well for him, though.
> 
> I also think, if enneagram has any truth to it, that being a type 9 in it also supports this peaceful tendency with all types of people. Reinforces it.
> 
> I unfortunately don't know too much about Malcolm X, though, but makes sense that he's Beta. SLE would be a safe bet.


Man and His Symbols was the first book I ever read by Jung and it got me hooked.


----------



## piano

@FearAndTrembling malcolm X is either ESFP or ENTJ imo. why ESTP?

and yea i agree. @Word Dispenser is good people


----------



## FearAndTrembling

i cant play the piano said:


> @_FearAndTrembling_ malcolm X is either ESFP or ENTJ imo. why ESTP?
> 
> and yea i agree. @_Word Dispenser_ is good people


I think he is a Ti and Fe user at least. He is good at filibustering with subjective logic and socially fluid.

He reminds me of Obama a lot actually. When he is calmed down, he is as cool as Obama.

Like Obama, he was totally undefined. He used to dress like a white guy. He would go with trends. He was always shedding his past self and apologizing for it. Sounds Fi polr.


----------



## Vermillion

i cant play the piano said:


> i think gammas are good at saying it like it is and i also agree that they'll hate a person no matter who's around, even if that person is well-liked by others. from what i've read and observed, they aren't going to put their feelings on the back burner just to maintain the peace. however i do find that quite a few of the ones i know go about this dislike/hate indirectly via mind games. they don't really fuck with people but they'll make comments about/to you that, to others, seem harmless but that, to you, are offensive. i'm not quite sure how to explain it and my opinion is definitely biased but i have noticed a pattern


If I hate someone and I'm talking about them to someone else, I say I hate them. I'm not sure what sort of gammas you know, but they seem odd  The type I've seen which does the below most is xEI -- SEIs mostly, IEIs handle conflict better. They like to make the perfectly veiled comment so that they seem tactful and agreeable while also getting their point across. 



> they'll make comments about/to you that, to others, seem harmless but that, to you, are offensive





> eh i know a lot of ILIs who play mind games with people. it isn't even so much a matter of liking/disliking the person, they just seem to like saying things that could potentially trigger others (mainly insecurities), sort of like social experiments, and gauging their reactions. they don't outright insult the person but they will make a general negative statement just to see who takes it personally and who doesn't, because if someone does then they're inadvertently admitting they are that way/they do that thing. which is interesting because the ILIs may not have even been referring to them when they originally made the statement. actually, chances are high they weren't even thinking about them when they said/wrote it, so the person sort of insults themselves by taking offense. not sure if that makes sense, but that's been my experience with them


...? I've never seen an ILI do this and I highly doubt any average xLI would condone behavior of this sort. They're really big on integrity and don't play mind games for the same reason they hate mind games being played on them -- they idealize people with conviction and strong values, so it makes sense they would also try to be like that. xLIs can actually be foolishly uptight and rigid about respecting differences in personal experience, to the point they get confused about how and when to moralize someone (which is why they appreciate the xEE, with a more dynamic set of values, to help them with that). It's difficult to envision an ILI treating others as social experiments unless ridiculously psychologically unhealthy. 

Moreover, xLIs don't care about gauging others' reactions. They are ignorant of emotional expression and reaction in the first place because of Fe PoLR. What you say sounds a LOT like superego Fi. xLIs can be insensitive and blunt and end up triggering people, but you won't see them waiting to see who takes something personally and who doesn't. 



> the person sort of insults themselves by taking offense


Standard superego Fi defense mechanism, saying something insensitive and lacking in nuance, and claiming the victim of their bullshit is the one who brought it upon themselves by "taking it so personally".



> i think delta NFs are big on mind games, too, but SLIs and LSEs don't seem like they'd do too well with them. i can't see the alphas i know acting that way either. i find it's really easy to deal with alphas* in conflict-fueled situations because something as simple as complimenting them can change their view of you/the situation entirely. SEIs are a little different in that, if they really feel they've been crossed or wronged, they'll have a tougher time just letting things go. i've had them say/do passive-aggressive things to me but they are such futile attempts (imo at least) that they don't even affect me


Hmm well when I mean mind games for alphas and deltas, I mean that it can sometimes seem passive-aggressive with how some of them dislike something but can't stand up for it adequately or vocalize their disagreement with an impact. It seems like they're hiding something and they expect you to guess, or like they expect the conflict to resolve itself if they keep transmitting their bad vibes for a while. (Though I feel like I'm giving deltas too little credit here, because they can also defend things with a lot of integrity when it comes down to it.)


----------



## piano

what about these songs?



* *


----------



## To_august

Night Huntress said:


> Style actually seems Ni and Fe to me... there's a lot of focus on different perspectives (all the mirrors and different glance angles) and the whole double exposure thing is almost blatantly ripped off True Detective's intro (even some of the poses are the same... couldn't they at least TRY???), which is pretty Ni because of how it shows relevant concepts and events playing out inside transparent outlines of people, almost like you can see through the people and understand what they're all about.
> 
> The video is directed by the same guy, yeah. But I thought Summertime was done WAY more masterfully. Very Fi-Si and super painful to watch. Style just sucked. lol.


You actually found the meaning in Style! And yep, True Detective intro influence is damn unoriginal.

I saw it a bit differently. Thought it was Si-Fe.

Soft sun-rays, wind blowing through the hair, walking on grass, mist -> pleasant sensations -> something good/pleasant is happening, good side of relationships; 
broken glass -> sensations of sharpness, crushing, cutting -> something rifty, unpleasant, misunderstanding-related is happening
smoke in the head -> hazy, suffocating sensations -> some unsure, heavy, uneven vibes about relationships
lightning bolts -> loudness, striking sensations -> something turbulent and/or passionate happening

At least this is how I see it. Guess, it's just that we tend to interpret stuff through our valued elements.


----------



## atarulum

The ones who are putting on a beta persona are probably si ne users


----------



## Wolfskralle

I don't normally watch animes, but... I do watch AMV's :tongue:

Are these Gamma-themed? Aesthetically, I mean.



* *


----------



## Jeremy8419

Wolfskralle said:


> I don't normally watch animes, but... I do watch AMV's :tongue:
> 
> Are these Gamma-themed? Aesthetically, I mean.
> 
> 
> 
> * *


Well it's definitely valued Se. Vivid blood like 10 seconds into it made me turn it off lol


----------



## To_august

Since this thread should live on.

Alpha vibes


----------



## d e c a d e n t

To_august said:


> Since this thread should live on.


Indeed.

This song strikes me as pretty alpha too:


----------



## Verity

The opening credits for season 2 of The Leftovers strikes me as Delta(the show is very NF in theme)


----------



## fasc

Any guesses?:


----------



## Word Dispenser

fasc said:


> Any guesses?:


Caricature of SLE. And possibly bits of LSE.


----------



## The_Wanderer

fasc said:


> Any guesses?


Deltas bitching about SLEs.


----------



## Serpent

???


----------



## Captain Mclain

Serpent said:


> ???


Lonely island alpha


----------



## willowglass

This movie seems overall Delta to me:





I know a ton of Delta's that love this movie (including me, lol), but I think it might be Gamma?


----------



## willowglass

How about this one? Delta? Is this Ne or Ni? I think the real Virginia Woolf was EII and the movie does sort of reflect her writing...


----------



## Entropic

@goldberry3 I disagree that The Thomas Crown Affair is a gamma movie. It may revolve around a notion of affluence, but the overall storytelling is delta imo, not gamma.


----------



## Immolate

Broadchurch. Si/Fe? Lots of emphasis on atmosphere and scenery to convey mood and message. 







Fargo. Se/Ni? Overall more forceful with a fair amount of symbolism/foreshadowing.


----------



## Verity

lets mosey said:


> Fargo. Se/Ni? Overall more forceful with a fair amount of symbolism/foreshadowing.


It's a mix of Delta/Gamma imo. First season is quite the exploration of what happens when you introduce Se/Ni without strong Ti-principles to a Delta society, and the characters that are shown to be sympathetic are mostly Deltas. Merry characters are shown to be kinda stupid and lacking of a strong sense of duty throughout both seasons, and I bet Noah Hawley(creator) is an LIE.


----------



## Immolate

Verity said:


> It's a mix of Delta/Gamma imo. First season is quite the *exploration of what happens when you introduce Se/Ni without strong Ti-principles to a Delta society*, and the characters that are shown to be sympathetic are mostly Deltas. Merry characters are shown to be kinda stupid and lacking of a strong sense of duty throughout both seasons, and I bet Noah Hawley(creator) is an LIE.


I've only watched the first season, and the part in bold is a good summary of the conflict. You're quite right about the Merry characters, and I'd say a lot of the humor (or what I perceived to be humor) centered on incompetence.


----------



## Serpent

What quadra would Edgar Wright's movies (Hot Fuzz, Scott Pilgrim Vs. The World) be in?


----------



## Word Dispenser

Entropic said:


> @_goldberry3_ I disagree that The Thomas Crown Affair is a gamma movie. It may revolve around a notion of affluence, but the overall storytelling is delta imo, not gamma.


I concur. I remember reading somewhere that this was _the _epitome of ILE behaviour. I watched it and decided that this was far more Delta than Alpha. :kitteh:


----------



## Word Dispenser

Serpent said:


> What quadra would Edgar Wright's movies (Hot Fuzz, Scott Pilgrim Vs. The World) be in?


Seems like Delta to me, for some reason. :kitteh: Especially Shaun of the Dead.


----------



## Entropic

Word Dispenser said:


> I concur. I remember reading somewhere that this was _the _epitome of ILE behaviour. I watched it and decided that this was far more Delta than Alpha. :kitteh:


If it was an action more more in line with Bond for its time, I'd be willing to consider it an Se movie though even then I think it's stretching it. Compare Bond to the Mission Impossible series or the Bourne trilogy released about the same time as well where I think MI and Bourne are much more clearly Se; Bond changes too much based on current social norms I think, as the recent Bond are very gamma and 80s Bond with George Clooney strikes me as beta; The Thomas Crown Affair doesn't really emphasize on the action but more on the suspense of action. Overall, the pacing is very slow and deliberate more focused on the plan of the heist rather than the heist itself. It's part why I cannot see it as a gamma movie. Compared to say, Snatch, just released a year after. Very different style. Hell, even Fight Club and The Matrix were released the same year (1999) and you can see the difference there too. 

Also, Brosnan is clearly an Ne-valuing type despite being the ex-Bond. I agree with you that he's an alpha NT; I always thought LII but ILE isn't out of the question, I suppose. Never looked deeply into it besides that he reminds me of my father somewhat. 

With that said, I did enjoy The Thomas Crown Affair a lot, it's a good movie, but the way it's so deliberately paced is really not an Se way of telling a story lol (again compare to say, Snatch, Fight Club or even The Matrix). 



Word Dispenser said:


> Seems like Delta to me, for some reason. :kitteh: Especially Shaun of the Dead.


I agree on Shaun of the Dead. I think the humor in Shaun of the Dead is very Ne style of humor. Also, Scott Pilgrim vs The World is super delta, I agree. Never seen it, but the concept in itself is very delta NF i.e. quirky schoolboy goes to fulfill his inner potential as an individual to make the world a better place to be in. Very IEE. EII stories tend to be much more moralizing.


----------



## Word Dispenser

Entropic said:


> I agree on Shaun of the Dead. I think the humor in Shaun of the Dead is very Ne style of humor. Also, Scott Pilgrim vs The World is super delta, I agree. Never seen it, but the concept in itself is very delta NF i.e. quirky schoolboy goes to fulfill his inner potential as an individual to make the world a better place to be in. Very IEE. EII stories tend to be much more moralizing.


Yeah, definitely. 

An old friend of mine, I think she's either an SEE or an IEE-- She absolutely adores these films. As well as things like Flight of the Conchords-- This Fi-tempered Ne silliness. She would get so hyped on them that I'd want to be able to share in that, but I just couldn't get into it to the degree that she did. She was also really into M.A.S.H. 

She just seemed really... Charmed by these things. I don't really know why. They seem decent enough to me, I suppose, but not stuff I would watch more than once, kind of like film junk food. Whereas she might watch these over and over-- Enough to quote and such. :kitteh:


----------



## willowglass

Delta


----------



## willowglass

Anyone have an idea about this one?:


----------



## Immolate

I've been curious about Janelle Monae and her videos.


----------



## fair phantom

Blade Runner:






(I apologize if this has been done before. I did a search and nothing came up)


----------



## To_august

fair phantom said:


> Blade Runner:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (I apologize if this has been done before. I did a search and nothing came up)


Serious quadras vibes and the main conflict of the movie is pretty Fi-ish.

Rick Deckart - SLI
Rachael - seems victim-like lady, but IE-wise - ESI
Roy - Se base. Probably SLE over SEE
Pris - some extraverted ethical type (excluding Alpha though)
Sebastian - poor thing. Se PoLR and EII
Gaff - ILI


----------



## fair phantom

To_august said:


> Serious quadras vibes and the main conflict of the movie is pretty Fi-ish.
> 
> Rick Deckart - SLI
> Rachael - seems victim-like lady, but IE-wise - ESI
> Roy - Se base. Probably SLE over SEE
> Pris - some extraverted ethical type (excluding Alpha though)
> Sebastian - poor thing. Se PoLR and EII
> Gaff - ILI


Thanks! It struck me as being pretty Gamma but I wasn't sure.


----------



## Kerik_S

_*[Beta Quadra] What are you listening to right now?*_

(shameless plug for my own thread)


----------



## Ninjaws

Which quadra would you guys link to this kind of humor?


----------



## Word Dispenser

Ninjaws said:


> Which quadra would you guys link to this kind of humor?


Hmmm... I don't get it. But, I'm tempted to say Beta, since the whole franchise is incredibly so, in my opinion. Holy carp. 

I mean, based on @To_august's recent article(s) about different quadras especially-- The _competition _and the needing to adhere to a power-based hierarchy, to 'be on top' and to 'win'. 

_Or, _it could just as easily be an infantile Delta mocking Beta mentality. Which actually seems more likely, now that this thought occurs to me.


----------



## Ninjaws

Word Dispenser said:


> Hmmm... I don't get it. But, I'm tempted to say Beta, since the whole franchise is incredibly so, in my opinion. Holy carp.
> 
> I mean, based on <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=66216" target="_blank">To_august</a></i></span>
> <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->'s recent article(s) about different quadras especially-- The _competition _and the needing to adhere to a power-based hierarchy, to 'be on top' and to 'win'.
> 
> _Or, _it could just as easily be an infantile Delta mocking Beta mentality. Which actually seems more likely, now that this thought occurs to me.


These are just some snippets though. I didn't want to link a 10 minute complication because nobody would watch the whole thing anyways. However, this kind of humor is ever-present in the series so I was interested.


----------



## Word Dispenser

Ninjaws said:


> These are just some snippets though. I didn't want to link a 10 minute complication because nobody would watch the whole thing anyways. However, this kind of humor is ever-present in the series so I was interested.


Those look more Ne-related humour. Possibly Delta. :kitteh:


----------



## To_august

From Delta with love :kitteh:





_
"Lay down, lay down your weapons boy
Right now, right now you should've changed the world
Under it all, you're not so tough
Everyone, everyone just wants to fall in love..."_


----------



## LibertyPrime

What is this, cus I really really love this song omg....?






and this one...






:OO hes a fucking genious!


----------



## karmachameleon

Jessica Jones?
AHS: murder house?


----------



## Immolate

Beta?


----------



## Ninjaws

lets mosey said:


> Beta?


Your avatar is one of the most beautiful I've ever seen. It is so absolute, so overwhelming. It feels like staring into infinity.


----------



## Mr inappropriate

I remember there was a thread to type songs, was that this one ?

Type this awesome music !







Sounds F ego-ish. Emphasized rerereoro's. Either EIE or SEE, imo. I lean Beta quadra.


----------



## Ninjaws




----------



## Verity

lets mosey said:


> Beta?


It's very Fi-themed imo which makes me think Gamma, compare it to _Cloud Atlas_ f'rex. Anyway, I love that movie.


----------



## Immolate

Verity said:


> It's very Fi-themed imo which makes me think Gamma, compare it to _Cloud Atlas_ f'rex. Anyway, I love that movie.


I actually haven't seen Cloud Atlas, but I take it you mean its exploration of different points of view vs The Fountain's focus on a character's relationship with his wife and his personal experience of love and loss? It's a very clear difference now that you mention it. I watched it years ago when it first came out and still revisit it from time to time.

One of the few scenes I could find on youtube, just because:


----------



## Verity

lets mosey said:


> I actually haven't seen Cloud Atlas, but I take it you mean its exploration of different points of view vs The Fountain's focus on a character's relationship with his wife and his personal experience of love and loss? It's a very clear difference now that you mention it. I watched it years ago when it first came out and still revisit it from time to time.
> 
> One of the few scenes I could find on youtube, just because:


Yeah, things like how the characters in _Cloud Atlas_ need to come to terms with their emotions for the greater cause, while in _The Fountain_ coming to terms with emotions _is_ the greater cause, and the focus of the film is very much on the emotional distance between the protagonist and his wife. 

Both the soundtrack and visual style is so fucking beautiful.


----------



## willowglass

Delta? I think this might be my new favorite movie.


----------



## LibertyPrime

Gamma SF right?


----------



## Vermillion

FreeBeer said:


> Gamma SF right?


My favorite character AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :lovekitty::lovekitty::lovekitty:

Yes he's gamma SF. I think it's a little difficult to determine ESI vs SEE because we don't see a lot of his actual cognition but I'm going for SEE. It makes more sense, given his impulsiveness. But a lot of his recklessness can be attributed to being a depressed 8w9.


----------



## Immolate




----------



## aniso

Kygo and his music? 
- I personally like the softness of sound in his songs. There's a load of harsh or aggressive electronic music out there, but this is just...so pleasant to the ear. I would say that's Si-related, but can never be sure, so thought of asking here. 
Also, this music feels kinda inspiring to me.


----------



## Dragheart Luard

I think that the dragon user is some Beta ST, leaning more LSI from what I've seen in Vanguard, no clue about Takuto.


----------



## tangosthenes

goldberry3 said:


> Delta? I think this might be my new favorite movie.


Extremely Delta.


----------



## MightyLizardKing

aniso said:


> Kygo and his music?
> - I personally like the softness of sound in his songs. There's a load of harsh or aggressive electronic music out there, but this is just...so pleasant to the ear. I would say that's Si-related, but can never be sure, so thought of asking here.
> Also, this music feels kinda inspiring to me.


Leaning towards Alpha, though Si/Ne for sure


----------



## Verity

?


----------



## To_august

Verity said:


> ?


Ni/Si.
The main aspect here, I think, is that the video is devoid of any sort of judgement. That's the beauty of it. I don't think there's a single, intentional idea behind the video, but it is more likely that it represents a non-concrete flow of images with sort of a unified theme that shouldn't be pinpointed explicitly, and which the viewer can fill with their own meaning or link to something in their mind. This way you can infer it with your own symbolical or aesthetical interpretation.

Cool video btw. Love stuff like that.


----------



## Entropic

That last song is very delta NF.


----------



## AdInfinitum

A very Ni based band is Tool in my honest opinion, it deals a lot with archetypes, a sense of destiny, the struggle to put oneself into movement, the flow of time: 




 I would say they are generally speaking very Gamma in their values but I have seen several Beta-like songs spread around.


----------



## Entropic

NobleRaven said:


> A very Ni based band is Tool in my honest opinion, it deals a lot with archetypes, a sense of destiny, the struggle to put oneself into movement, the flow of time:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would say they are generally speaking very Gamma in their values but I have seen several Beta-like songs spread around.


Maynard is probably an ILI.


----------



## Rabid Seahorse

LII could work too, both have 4-dimensional Ni and Ti.


----------



## SheWolf

Nightwish is literally my favorite band of all time, right in front of Within Temptation. Symphonic metal is my absolute favorite genre. It's heavy and very fantasy-esque. What quadra do you think they are? I say either Gamma or Beta.

Here's my favorite music videos from each.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Nightwish strikes me as Ni and Fe. Very much concerned with the future in an abstract sense, and seems to treat the external world as the source of hope -- sees such things as objects that can be moved around, gained, lost, etc. I'd say Beta.

Within Temptation has a pretty heavy Ni sense of danger, abstract and unknowable except in a sense of certainty. Seems to desire Se but not be doing much of it, with all the talk of violence and killing in an abstract undefined sense. The music strikes me as more Fi, but I am unsure why so I am not confident in that. I'd say Gamma.

Both are pretty awesome, and are now on my listening list


----------



## SheWolf

Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Nightwish strikes me as Ni and Fe. Very much concerned with the future in an abstract sense, and seems to treat the external world as the source of hope -- sees such things as objects that can be moved around, gained, lost, etc. I'd say Beta.
> 
> Within Temptation has a pretty heavy Ni sense of danger, abstract and unknowable except in a sense of certainty. Seems to desire Se but not be doing much of it, with all the talk of violence and killing in an abstract undefined sense. The music strikes me as more Fi, but I am unsure why so I am not confident in that. I'd say Gamma.
> 
> Both are pretty awesome, and are now on my listening list


I have quite the list I can give you for both if you'd like! I adore Nightwish's Imaginaerum album. Though, that was when their lead singing was Annette. Within Temptation's Mother Earth is good, as well as The Unforgiving.

I love Tarja's voice and she has her own solo career now. Her song "Lost Northern Star" is very Ni-Fe to me.


----------



## Immolate

Overall impression of Bjork and her music?


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

I get a sense of Ni danger and the flow towards destruction or salvation. Seems Dynamic, probably Vortical, Merry, Ni Ego. Probably IEI? I certainly think that Bjork is Beta. Second choice Gamma, because Ni.


----------



## Immolate

Fenix Wulfheart said:


> I get a sense of Ni danger and the flow towards destruction or salvation. Seems Dynamic, probably Vortical, Merry, Ni Ego. Probably IEI? I certainly think that Bjork is Beta. Second choice Gamma, because Ni.


Thank you for the response! This song seems like a very Ni take on origins and development over time. I wonder if you agree.






I mostly come across IEI or EII for her type, with the occasional ESI.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

lets mosey said:


> Thank you for the response! This song seems like a very Ni take on origins and development over time. I wonder if you agree.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mostly come across IEI or EII for her type, with the occasional ESI.


I am 98% certain she is an IEI after that video. I mean, the vortical art/lyric style is so clear, and the EII is more Declaring. I would expect EIIs to tell stories more or less directly, not move around and around the point like this allowing the audience to draw their own conclusions.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

This is my poster child for vortical style:


----------



## SheWolf

What do you think Lorde's music is? I don't know, but I absolutely adore her and her music actually. Team is one of my favorite songs by her. Love the message it conveys.


----------



## inabox

ShieldMaiden said:


> What do you think Lorde's music is? I don't know, but I absolutely adore her and her music actually. Team is one of my favorite songs by her. Love the message it conveys.


Her music is either Gamma or Beta. Btw, I found the video you shared intriguing, I didn't understand the message though, could you explain it?


----------



## SheWolf

inabox said:


> Her music is either Gamma or Beta. Btw, I found the video you shared intriguing, I didn't understand the message though, could you explain it?


Yeah, I'd say Gamma. Especially this song, as to me it's all about "looking after your own."

The message to me is just that. Watching the video, you see kids that seem to be living in the streets. They look after each other, help one another out. It's a kinship as they are united by circumstance and struggle. (_"We live in cities you never see on screen. Not very pretty, but we sure know how to run free. Living in ruins of a palace within my dreams and you know we're on each other's team."_)

Lorde I actually believe said this song was inspired by a dream she had.


----------



## inabox

ShieldMaiden said:


> Yeah, I'd say Gamma. Especially this song, as to me it's all about "looking after your own."
> 
> The message to me is just that. Watching the video, you see kids that seem to be living in the streets. They look after each other, help one another out. It's a kinship as they are united by circumstance and struggle. (_"We live in cities you never see on screen. Not very pretty, but we sure know how to run free. Living in ruins of a palace within my dreams and you know we're on each other's team."_)
> 
> Lorde I actually believe said this song was inspired by a dream she had.


It does seem Gamma, I had a question, though, why is it not Beta though? I thought they also looked after their own.


----------



## SheWolf

inabox said:


> It does seem Gamma, I had a question, though, why is it not Beta though? I thought they also looked after their own.


Betas do some, but they are also concerned about expanding their territory than holding what is already theirs. Gamma tends to be more protective of their own territory with less emphasis on conquering more.

Betas value Fe, Ti which makes them a but more concerned with conquering, and "climbing up" so to speak. The song doesn't talk about that at all, but rather protecting what is theirs and each other.


----------



## Kintsugi

@ShieldMaiden

ESI :kitteh:


----------



## SheWolf

The Perfect Storm said:


> @ShieldMaiden
> 
> ESI


ESI what? XD


----------



## Kintsugi

ShieldMaiden said:


> ESI what? XD


ESI with sugar on top?! 

ESI-Se (I think, but I'm not confident with subtypes AT ALL)

Also, your avatars and general vibe/style always made me think ESI.


----------



## Kintsugi

@_ShieldMaiden_

oh fuck...wrong thread. xD

I was so busy stalking your ass I forgot where I was. :3


----------



## SheWolf

The Perfect Storm said:


> @_ShieldMaiden_
> 
> oh fuck...wrong thread. xD
> 
> I was so busy stalking your ass I forgot where I was. :3


I am literally laughing my ass off. XD 

did you mean the Guess the Type thread?


----------



## Kintsugi

ShieldMaiden said:


> I am literally laughing my ass off. XD
> 
> did you mean the Guess the Type thread?


Yes. 

(sorry thread! *wanders out with tail between legs*)


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Hah! The playacting is intense with these two...


----------



## SheWolf

Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Hah! The playacting is intense with these two...


You talking about Storm and I? XD it's what we do.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

ShieldMaiden said:


> You talking about Storm and I? XD it's what we do.


Heh. Yeah, I am. Y'all just keep stalking each other. Waiting to see what comes of this


----------



## SheWolf

Fenix Wulfheart said:


> ShieldMaiden said:
> 
> 
> 
> You talking about Storm and I? XD it's what we do.
> 
> 
> 
> Heh. Yeah, I am. Y'all just keep stalking each other. Waiting to see what comes of this
Click to expand...

Yes, we've talked a lot about how we have stalked one another XD We agree that's what best friends do. Also our E6's


----------



## Immolate

Mellow alpha?


----------



## Immolate

Uncomfortably beta?






Vai's expressiveness aside, I do like the pairing of feminine/masculine.


----------



## Wisteria

Gamma NT? This definitely seems Ni.






And I'm guessing Delta for this opening because Fi-Si


----------



## Immolate

This pairing of song and video:


----------



## willowglass

Delta?


----------



## Verity

Gamma with emphasis on introverted elements? Specifically Ni.


----------



## piano

beta? def Ni-Se






creds to gossip girl <3


----------



## To_august

lets mosey said:


> @*Entropic* Yes, my kinda post. I appreciate you taking the time to put it together.
> 
> I like your point about Ti and Te. How would you categorize the following?


Not Entropic, but pictures that focus on symmetry, geometry and structural patterns are usually Ti.


----------



## Immolate

To_august said:


> Not Entropic, but pictures that focus on symmetry, geometry and structural patterns are usually Ti.


Thank you! 

I was going to post Te images, but then I came across these pictures and thought they were kind of endearing:










Alpha SF?










ILE?










Beta ST?










Gamma NT ??










Delta? SLI?

(source)


----------



## Verity

lets mosey said:


> Gamma NT ??
> 
> (source)


I'm thinking more ST(LSI?). I don't think intuitives would pay that much attention to symmetry, order and style in their environment. I see strong Ti and Si.

Gamma NT would be more like the ILE picture, but with less colours and random objects. Imo.

Mostly agree about the others though.


----------



## Immolate

Verity said:


> I'm thinking more ST(LSI?). I don't think intuitives would pay *that much attention to symmetry, order and style in their environment*. I see strong Ti and Si.
> 
> Gamma NT would be more like the ILE picture, but with less colours and random objects. Imo.


Yes, I considered, lol. 

I couldn't get a sense of Gamma NT from the selection. There's this guy:










But that Mickey Mouse and outdated setup? Granted, that phone suggests a different time. (More so Beta?)


----------



## To_august

lets mosey said:


>


This one seems EIE,
and last picture could be EII.

Edit:
This one is creepily accurate for someone I currently share an office with. Not only desk and surroundings, but even posture and facial expression of the guy fit perfectly.


----------



## Immolate

To_august said:


> Edit:
> This one is creepily accurate for someone I currently share an office with. Not only desk and surroundings, but even posture and facial expression of the guy fit perfectly.


That little smile gets to me for some reason.


----------



## Word Dispenser

lets mosey said:


> It would be interesting to explore fairy tales through the eyes of each quadra.
> 
> I think Once Upon A Time is very Alpha:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whereas The Wolf Among Us is more Gamma, perhaps:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Dark Alpha" isn't coming to mind.


I enjoyed both! I might lean Delta for Wolf Among Us. :kitteh:


----------



## Immolate

Word Dispenser said:


> I enjoyed both! I might lean Delta for Wolf Among Us. :kitteh:


Oh, I'm glad you said that about Wolf Among Us! I was entertaining the idea of Delta but didn't know how or if I should give it a voice. I liked OUAT in the very beginning because it tried to emulate a show like Lost, or so it seemed to me with the focus on relationships and hidden connections (and some Lost easter eggs), but then it got so fluffy.


----------



## Immolate

I've been posting a lot, but...






Alpha NT?






God of War series, still Beta...?






^^^


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Mass Effect seems to be Decisive Quadra to me. Other than that, not sure.

Death Stranding seems Gamma to me. Maybe Beta.

Hey, what about Assassin's Creed? Love that series.


----------



## Immolate

Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Mass Effect seems to be Decisive Quadra to me. Other than that, not sure.
> 
> Death Stranding seems Gamma to me. Maybe Beta.
> 
> Hey, what about Assassin's Creed? Love that series.


I'm sure someone once told me the Mass Effect series is more Ne than Ni, although I would argue that here and there. With that trailer specifically, "Our survival as a species has always depended on our drive to *seek out the undiscovered*," says Ne to me. Their relationship and morality system says Fi to me.

I agree about Death Stranding.

I only ever played Assassin's Creed II. I'd say Fe valuing superficially.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Hm. I think the aspect of exploration, which is indeed a strong theme of Mass Effect, does seem pretty Ne. But the story that the game is telling is very linear with a clear sense of danger hanging over our heads and a fairly clear path of direct action to take to solve it. Seems Se to me.

I think this discrepancy is because of the very large writing staff. Shepard herself seems to be Ni/Fi to me. She trusts her visions implicitly, which is an Ni stereotype. She leaps to Se force pretty easily too. I can't see any one type for her, though, because of the options inherent to the gameplay. Shepard is different for everyone that plays him.

I do think the Assassin's Creed series is pretty FeSe, yeh.


----------



## Immolate

Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Hm. I think the aspect of exploration, which is indeed a strong theme of Mass Effect, does seem pretty Ne. But the story that the game is telling is very linear with a clear sense of danger hanging over our heads and a fairly clear path of direct action to take to solve it. Seems Se to me.
> 
> I think this discrepancy is because of the very large writing staff. Shepard herself seems to be Ni/Fi to me. She trusts her visions implicitly, which is an Ni stereotype. *She leaps to Se force pretty easily too.* I can't see any one type for her, though, because of the options inherent to the gameplay. Shepard is different for everyone that plays him.
> 
> I do think the Assassin's Creed series is pretty FeSe, yeh.


Is there a reason you're not quoting? It makes it inconvenient for me.

Sure, and I agree with you about the Se, especially in the third game (which I thought tried to dip more into symbolism with its portrayal of Shepard's psyche, the question of indoctrination, the cyclical nature of destruction and rebirth, the, uh, Star Child, and so on) but there's also the world-building and the exploration of different races and cultures and technologies and so on.

My one true Shepard is a "charge everything/save everything" vanguard, so,


----------



## Serpent

The Souls games are Gamma, especially Bloodborne.


----------



## Verity

lets mosey said:


> I've been posting a lot, but...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alpha NT?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> God of War series, still Beta...?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^


The Mass Effect games seem Gamma to me: Securing of resources, attacking to defend, gaining insight and transcending one's superficial understanding of Alien threats and an overall focus on maintaining relationships between different characters. They do not strike me as Alpha at all, but I could see a case for Delta. The new trailer does seem more Ne though, due to a theme of exploration/possibilities, and an overall lack of Ni/Se, but I can't say if it's Alpha or Delta. 

Not sure about the new God of War, it could be leaning more towards Gamma I guess since the theme doesn't seem to be about forcefully rebelling against the gods, instead it seems to be about securing resources and defending the protagonist's family.

Death Stranding's trailer is definitely Gamma. Very Ni and Fi.

I feel I should mention Bioshock if we're talking Gamma games. The constant theme in all the games is pretty much Gamma vs Beta values.


----------



## Immolate

Verity said:


> The Mass Effect games seem Gamma to me: Securing of resources, attacking to defend, gaining insight and transcending one's superficial understanding of Alien threats and an overall focus on maintaining relationships between different characters. They do not strike me as Alpha at all, but I could see a case for Delta. The new trailer does seem more Ne though, due to a theme of exploration/possibilities, and an overall lack of Ni/Se, but I can't say if it's Alpha or Delta.


The trailer seemed Alpha to me overall, primarily because it's an exploration of a new system without much assurance of tangible rewards and a lack of attention to characters and inter-species relationships. There's just a sense of, "Let's see what's out there," although the intent isn't fanciful exploration, it does come down to necessity and survival. I agree the relationship system is Fi overall, and I'd say Bioware games in general are very Fi in their treatment and portrayal of characters (the second Dragon Age game seemed primarily Delta to me) but I'll have to think about Gamma.



> Not sure about the new God of War, it could be leaning more towards Gamma I guess since the theme doesn't seem to be about forcefully rebelling against the gods, instead it seems to be about securing resources and defending the protagonist's family.


I think the previous games were fairly Beta, but this new trailer has a quieter focus on Kratos and his relationship with his son as well as a sense of respect and responsibility, and I wonder if this a sign of the series adopting a different tone and maturing Kratos. 



> Death Stranding's trailer is definitely Gamma. Very Ni and Fi.


Agreed. Perhaps the game itself will turn out Beta, but the trailer is fairly Gamma.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

lets mosey said:


> Is there a reason you're not quoting? It makes it inconvenient for me.
> 
> Sure, and I agree with you about the Se, especially in the third game (which I thought tried to dip more into symbolism with its portrayal of Shepard's psyche, the question of indoctrination, the cyclical nature of destruction and rebirth, the, uh, Star Child, and so on) but there's also the world-building and the exploration of different races and cultures and technologies and so on.
> 
> My one true Shepard is a "charge everything/save everything" vanguard, so,


Quoting is for addressing you specifically. Like in this post right now. When I speak in the thread open forum with no one in particular I am addressing specifically, I don't quote.

Heh, fair enough. I play Adept Shepard with shotgun use added to the class. Run in blasting everything to the side like a vanguard, but using all the biotic powers like an Adept. Tends to be more glass cannon-y than an actual vanguard, but I'm good enough at tactics, use of cover, and reaction times that I can still pull it off on the hardest difficulty. ^^


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Verity said:


> The Mass Effect games seem Gamma to me: Securing of resources, attacking to defend, gaining insight and transcending one's superficial understanding of Alien threats and an overall focus on maintaining relationships between different characters.


You make an excellent point. I don't care to secure resources all that much like the game wants you to, but I am completionist so I do it anyway. Its a grind fest at that point. The focus on resources is kinda meh, as long as I have enough to accomplish the thing I'm good XD

The whole attacking to defend and focus on gaining insights seems Ni-Se in general to me, and that's what I was thinking of earlier. But there is a definite Fi element, and not really any Fe at all in the majority of the games. Its probably Gamma, yeah.

Also, on Death Stranding: I really like that trailer. The symbolisms are amazing, and make me want to see where they go with it ^^


----------



## Immolate

Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Quoting is for addressing you specifically. Like in this post right now. When I speak in the thread open forum with no one in particular I am addressing specifically, I don't quote.


Sure, but given that I expressed explicit interest in the topic and that you were addressing some of the points I made, it's nice to be quoted directly. It certainly helps to keep up with the discussion.



> Heh, fair enough. I play Adept Shepard with shotgun use added to the class. Run in blasting everything to the side like a vanguard, but using all the biotic powers like an Adept. Tends to be more glass cannon-y than an actual vanguard, but I'm good enough at tactics, use of cover, and reaction times that I can still pull it off on the hardest difficulty. ^^


I went through most of the classes on highest difficulty and the best experience for me personally was the vanguard. It was just so good. 



> You make an excellent point. I don't care to secure resources all that much like the game wants you to, but I am completionist so I do it anyway. Its a grind fest at that point. The focus on resources is kinda meh, as long as I have enough to accomplish the thing I'm good XD
> 
> The whole attacking to defend and focus on gaining insights seems Ni-Se in general to me, and that's what I was thinking of earlier. But there is a definite Fi element, and not really any Fe at all in the majority of the games. Its probably Gamma, yeah.


Seems Te with intuition overall. 

Why is acquisition of resources "meh" for you?


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

lets mosey said:


> Sure, but given that I expressed explicit interest in the topic and that you were addressing some of the points I made, it's nice to be quoted directly. It certainly helps to keep up with the discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, I use mentions for that. But yes, it would have been better to tag you in some fashion. I honestly didn't think it was a big deal, but then I use the "subscribed threads" button to keep up. I may have just unconsciously assumed you do too.
> 
> 
> 
> lets mosey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why is acquisition of resources "meh" for you?
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like it detracts from the story. Slows things down. Or, put another way, artificially lengthens the game. Mass Effect 3 was the least offensive about it, because acquiring resources was actually a plot point.
> 
> I hated mining for Iridium in Mass Effect 2. I'd have preferred to just use credits for it, get the thing, do the upgrade, and then proceed with the story. It feels like a waste of my time more than anything.
> 
> Kind of like leveling up in MMOs - takes forever, and why? So you keep on paying for the game for longer. What if I only like playing once a week for 3 hours? Well too bad, still full price. It's how it ends up addictive for some.
> 
> That's why I liked Dragon Age, though. The side quests mostly happened automatically as part of traveling back and forth, or were actually interesting stories. I'm far more interested in the story and the character interactions (something Bioware excels at XD) than I am in the action elements. For the action elements, though, I like to feel challenged, and I like to feel like I worked for it. So I set myself goals and then top them, and use that to keep it interesting. I almost always play max difficulty, and I don't do any grinding in games unless I have to do so as part of some other overarching goal. Like trying to get the best ending in Mass Effect 2 requires you to mine to get the ship upgrades, so I did that. I also try to do every actual quest or event in the game, whatever they may be, so I always end up really high level. Like Level 23 by the end of Dragon Age Origins without yet going to Awakening. I prefer to maximize my experience with the game so that no one part of the game is boring.
> 
> Another good example. I recently replayed Mass Effect 2, and when I did I simply skipped going out of my way for the mining bits. I mined everywhere I went, but I didn't visit anywhere out of the way nor did I try to milk every planet for all it had. I no longer had a challenge that involved getting everyone to survive, so I no longer cared. What I did care about for that run was getting all of the personal upgrades for Shepard, though, so I made sure to do that. That time I was trying to make sure to survive the last mission with as many fatalities as possible - without Shepard dying. Fun run. Never finished it, though. Got distracted by my acquisition of the Assassin's Creed games.
> 
> Huh. I set really lofty goals, and I stick to them while playing the game...but I don't always achieve them. Only thing I do make sure to do is finish every game's main story. I guess that means I'm not really a *completionist*....what's a better word? Hm.
> 
> EDIT: I loved Mass Effect 1's achievement system. Earn the achievement for a permanent bonus to all characters! That sort of earning is worth it, to me. Much more so than mining for iridium or whatever.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Immolate

@Fenix Wulfheart Oh, I took "resources" a bit more broadly here, more so the general acquisition of knowledge, valuables, assets, material goods, etc. I tend to enjoy hoarding resources in games in the sense of seeking out the best or most powerful and then working to surpass that, again and again, and creating a stronghold for my characters, a sturdy foundation. 

Regardless of whether acquiring power or allies is part of the plot, for example, I will do so as a means of preparation and personal satisfaction. I farmed connections beyond what may have been necessary in DA:I, because I could and because I wanted more. I can't imagine getting out of the Mass Effect games without keeping as many of your resources intact (whether that's your team or your ship or your own gear) unless the intent is to cripple yourself for the extra sweat. I wonder if this could be related to enneagram, somewhat. Self-preservation?

I also really enjoy crafting or gear customization and will go out of my way to produce the most effective and worthwhile weapon and armor. I will persevere until I have what I need (but mostly what I want). I disliked how the games got progressively simpler and "user friendly" with regards to customization and tactics. 

I relate to your need for a challenge, which is why the vanguard was so satisfying for me personally, especially played in a way that increased risk. I hated falling to desperation, such as using too much cover or resorting to a heavy weapon. I like knowing I have to work for it. 

I also like to vary my classes and choices, wringing as much as I can from the experience. It feels wasted otherwise. In that sense, I do feel like a completionist, but it isn't always a satisfying thing. It's a compulsive, jaw-clenching need to keep testing your resolve 

I really like the Dragon Age games for their relationship and character dynamics, the way they explore ethics. How did you feel about the second game?

Anyway, I rambled needlessly, on my phone. Do excuse any nonsense, and also thank you for indulging that question.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

lets mosey said:


> @Fenix Wulfheart Oh, I took "resources" a bit more broadly here, more so the general acquisition of knowledge, valuables, assets, material goods, etc. I tend to enjoy hoarding resources in games in the sense of seeking out the best or most powerful and then working to surpass that, again and again, and creating a stronghold for my characters, a sturdy foundation.
> 
> Regardless of whether acquiring power or allies is part of the plot, for example, I will do so as a means of preparation and personal satisfaction. I farmed connections beyond what may have been necessary in DA:I, because I could and because I wanted more. I can't imagine getting out of the Mass Effect games without keeping as many of your resources intact (whether that's your team or your ship or your own gear) unless the intent is to cripple yourself for the extra sweat. I wonder if this could be related to enneagram, somewhat. Self-preservation?


Heh, yeah, maybe it is Enneagram. I find that I enjoy challenge but I also enjoy making things even more challenging than they need to be. I'm not concerned with maxed gear, but I am very concerned with maxed stats. Like, inherent character stats. Strength and Dexterity and so on. I want to internalize power into the character, make it impossible to take it away. Do you feel the same way on that?



lets mosey said:


> I relate to your need for a challenge, which is why the vanguard was so satisfying for me personally, especially played in a way that increased risk. I hated falling to desperation, such as using too much cover or resorting to a heavy weapon. I like knowing I have to work for it.


I can relate to that. I don't use the Heavy Weapons if I can help it. Hell, I like to melee enemies while bullets are pounding into my character, then erect a biotic shield and keep pounding the enemy. I go super reckless - but only as reckless as I can get away with. I amp the difficulty so that I HAVE to play better. This does often mean I have to work on gear just to meet that difficulty, so sometimes I do that too.



lets mosey said:


> I also like to vary my classes and choices, wringing as much as I can from the experience. It feels wasted otherwise. In that sense, I do feel like a completionist, but it isn't always a satisfying thing. It's a compulsive, jaw-clenching need to keep testing your resolve
> 
> I really like the Dragon Age games for their relationship and character dynamics, the way they explore ethics. How did you feel about the second game?
> 
> Anyway, I rambled needlessly, on my phone. Do excuse any nonsense, and also thank you for indulging that question.


Now, see, that is awesome. I love getting a feel for the other ways the game is played. I still never played a Sentinel on Mass Effect, and I regret that a bit. Playing different classes and getting all the game has to offer is definitely worthwhile. Why do anything by ****ing halves, amirite?


----------



## Immolate

Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Heh, yeah, maybe it is Enneagram. I find that I enjoy challenge but I also enjoy making things even more challenging than they need to be. I'm not concerned with maxed gear, but I am very concerned with maxed stats. Like, inherent character stats. Strength and Dexterity and so on. I want to internalize power into the character, make it impossible to take it away. Do you feel the same way on that?


Oh, yes, I quite enjoy that too. I'll sit down and plan my progression based on need and preference and team dnyamics. I like optimizing my characters overall, whether that means their talent trees or tactics or gear. Despite the streamlining in the later games, I did appreciate the fact that we could more easily respec our characters and experiment with different builds. I tend to prefer glass-canon type characters that rely on specific skills to get the job done rather then on physicality and weaponry, like assassins or mages.



> I can relate to that. I don't use the Heavy Weapons if I can help it. *Hell, I like to melee enemies while bullets are pounding into my character*, then erect a biotic shield and keep pounding the enemy. I go super reckless - but only as reckless as I can get away with. I amp the difficulty so that I HAVE to play better. This does often mean I have to work on gear just to meet that difficulty, so sometimes I do that too.


Haha! One of the more gratuitous and satisfying aspects of playing a vanguard was punching out that last bit of health, just really getting in there and getting your hands dirty, so to speak. I liken it to the quiet and repressed personality finally venting all that steam that was collecting under the surface.



> Now, see, that is awesome. I love getting a feel for the other ways the game is played. I still never played a Sentinel on Mass Effect, and *I regret that a bit*. Playing different classes and getting all the game has to offer is definitely worthwhile. Why do anything by ****ing halves, amirite?


Nah, I also skipped the sentinel in the last two games. The class seemed like a bunch of scraps put together after everything else was built and polished. I'd say my order of preference is the vanguard, engineer, infiltrator, adept, sentinel, and lastly the soldier. Andromeda is going to consume me, I'm sure.


----------



## owlet

I would agree with your analyses on Mass Effect (although I've only seen 2 so far).

What do you guys think about Heavy Rain? Beta, maybe?


----------



## Immolate

owlet said:


> I would agree with your analyses on Mass Effect (although I've only seen 2 so far).
> 
> What do you guys think about Heavy Rain? Beta, maybe?


I've actually never played Heavy Rain... I should fix that soon.

I'll drop this here:


----------



## owlet

lets mosey said:


> I've actually never played Heavy Rain... I should fix that soon.


You really should! It was a very interesting (and fun) gaming experience.


----------



## Vermillion

lets mosey said:


> Oh, yes, I feel small next to this. I don't know how to begin talking about my feelings the way you do, so I'm going to save myself the stumbling and skip right to thanking you for this response. You got your point across and I very much appreciate it


Cool  You don't need to express yourself if you don't want to, but if you happen to have any thoughts on the matter I don't mind hearing them now or whenever, however much you feel like it's "stumbling" 

I feel like I get what you meant/felt, either way.


----------



## Immolate

Robot coming to terms with their emerging sentience. Alpha NT. Or.


----------



## inabox

UnReal: This is the most Se/Ni show that I can think of. Very Beta/Gamma.

Rachel- INFp-Ni (hahaha, the embodiment of what I loathe about unhealthy INFps) 9-2-6 so/sx
Quinn- Te-ENTj 3-5-8 sp/so (her and Rachel's dynamic will show you why supervision relationships often suck ass)
Adam- Se-ESTP (duality is not always roses as seen with him and Rachel)
Anna - ESFj? 2 so/sx
Jeremy- Fi-ISFj (you guys wanna know why benefits sucks ass at times, even when romance styles are complimentary? well, look no further; Jeremy is judgy about her in a way I suppose a dual wouldn't be)
Chet- Se-ESFp 8w7 ; a assbutt who's also a threat


----------



## piano

There seems to be a strong correlation between Hogwarts houses and socionics quadras. Maybe I'm onto something, maybe I'm making something out of nothing, I don't know... but here's what I've got so far.

*Alpha = Hufflepuff.* Childish perception, childish judgment. Judicious, Merry, Democratic. Open, receptive, fun and playful, fair, loyal, group-oriented, "nice", conflict-averse, naive, pleasure seeking. I concede that it's more Alpha SF than Alpha NT but even they've got those Hufflepuff vibes. Fe overload. Quite Si as well.

*Beta = Gryffindor.* Most obvious one, imo... The SJWs of the real _and_ the wizard world. Mature perception, childish judgment. Decisive, Merry, Aristocratic. Fiery, chivalrous, rash and impulsive, rambunctious, "us vs them" mentality, goal-oriented and determined, brave (with an exhibitionist twist). Fe and Se are most obvious, I think, but Se especially.

*Delta = Ravenclaw.* Childish perception, mature judgment. Judicious, Serious, Aristocratic. Independent / individualistic, curious, wise, mature, creative, industrious, accepting, detached, self-justified, relatively peaceful and composed, favor wit and wry humor. There's a lot of Ne at play here. Thirst for knowledge, unconventional thinking, a particular openness to new ideas that is unique to Ne, imo.

*Gamma = Slytherin.* Mature perception, mature judgment. Decisive, serious, democratic. Cunning, resourceful, proud, ambitious, vindictive, power-seeking, misunderstood, pragmatic, prioritize self-preservation heavily but still loyal to their own (and this brand of loyalty is stronger, more personal, and somewhat elitist compared to Alphas / Hufflepuffs). I also strongly agree with this: "but most Slytherins are _actually very kind_ (unless you happen to get on their bad side for some reason)" since it's how I view the gammas I've encountered irl... as well as myself, because I become quite spiteful when angry. Ni-Se and Fi-Te in a nutshell, really.

I think the houses corresponding animals fit the quadras quite well, too. I get that I'm kind of over-simplifying it but it is interesting to me how their interaction styles and perceptions of one another (A > B, B > D, G > B, etc) are similar to those seen in HP (H > G, G > S, R > H, etc), and I find it even more interesting how the quadras / houses on the Se-Ni axis are the ones duking it out, while the Ne-Si folks just sit back like, "Uh... seriously, guys? I just want to read my book / make jokes / play cards / eat this taco." It's sort of how I view the real world, with betas and gammas favoring competition and alphas and deltas prioritizing... peace... fair play? I can't think of a better word right now... I could also see SP = Gryffindor; SJ = Hufflepuff; NP = Raveclaw; NJ = Slytherin.

What do you guys think? It's 5am and I'm like half-asleep right now. Blah. Unfortunately I'm not all that knowledgeable in the field of socionics but the epiphany hit me right as my head hit my pillow and I wanted to post it somewhere before I forgot.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

ok not what i meant said:


> There seems to be a strong correlation between Hogwarts houses and socionics quadras. Maybe I'm onto something, maybe I'm making something out of nothing, I don't know... but here's what I've got so far.
> 
> *Alpha = Hufflepuff.* Childish perception, childish judgment. Judicious, Merry, Democratic. Open, receptive, fun and playful, fair, loyal, group-oriented, "nice", conflict-averse, naive, pleasure seeking. I concede that it's more Alpha SF than Alpha NT but even they've got those Hufflepuff vibes. Fe overload. Quite Si as well.
> 
> *Beta = Gryffindor.* Most obvious one, imo... The SJWs of the real _and_ the wizard world. Mature perception, childish judgment. Decisive, Merry, Aristocratic. Fiery, chivalrous, rash and impulsive, rambunctious, "us vs them" mentality, goal-oriented and determined, brave (with an exhibitionist twist). Fe and Se are most obvious, I think, but Se especially.
> 
> *Delta = Ravenclaw.* Childish perception, mature judgment. Judicious, Serious, Aristocratic. Independent / individualistic, curious, wise, mature, creative, industrious, accepting, detached, self-justified, relatively peaceful and composed, favor wit and wry humor. There's a lot of Ne at play here. Thirst for knowledge, unconventional thinking, a particular openness to new ideas that is unique to Ne, imo.
> 
> *Gamma = Slytherin.* Mature perception, mature judgment. Decisive, serious, democratic. Cunning, resourceful, proud, ambitious, vindictive, power-seeking, misunderstood, pragmatic, prioritize self-preservation heavily but still loyal to their own (and this brand of loyalty is stronger, more personal, and somewhat elitist compared to Alphas / Hufflepuffs). I also strongly agree with this: "but most Slytherins are _actually very kind_ (unless you happen to get on their bad side for some reason)" since it's how I view the gammas I've encountered irl... as well as myself, because I become quite spiteful when angry. Ni-Se and Fi-Te in a nutshell, really.
> 
> I think the houses corresponding animals fit the quadras quite well, too. I get that I'm kind of over-simplifying it but it is interesting to me how their interaction styles and perceptions of one another (A > B, B > D, G > B, etc) are similar to those seen in HP (H > G, G > S, R > H, etc), and I find it even more interesting how the quadras / houses on the Se-Ni axis are the ones duking it out, while the Ne-Si folks just sit back like, "Uh... seriously, guys? I just want to read my book / make jokes / play cards / eat this taco." It's sort of how I view the real world, with betas and gammas favoring competition and alphas and deltas prioritizing... peace... fair play? I can't think of a better word right now... I could also see SP = Gryffindor; SJ = Hufflepuff; NP = Raveclaw; NJ = Slytherin.
> 
> What do you guys think? It's 5am and I'm like half-asleep right now. Blah. Unfortunately I'm not all that knowledgeable in the field of socionics but the epiphany hit me right as my head hit my pillow and I wanted to post it somewhere before I forgot.


I identify with Slytherin more than Gryffindor. And Ravenclaw. Hm.


----------



## Lustghost

Fenix Wulfheart said:


> I identify with Slytherin more than Gryffindor. And Ravenclaw. Hm.


Same here. I type as LSI and identify with Slytherin the most.

I think Slytherins are pretty Beta-ish. They are obviously aristocratic and decisive. The only thing that doesn't fit that well is Merry dichotomy. Perhaps each Hogwarts house could have two most likely quadras listed for them, so both Gryffindor and Slytherin for Beta.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Ghostbangs said:


> Same here. I type as LSI and identify with Slytherin the most.
> 
> I think Slytherins are pretty Beta-ish. They are obviously aristocratic and decisive. The only thing that doesn't fit that well is Merry dichotomy. Perhaps each Hogwarts house could have two most likely quadras listed for them, so both Gryffindor and Slytherin for Beta.


See, that's just it. Slytherin IS Merry sometimes. Look at how emotive they actually are. When it comes time for a Quidditch match, for example. They quickly and easily express displeasure, aggression, frustrations...Slytherins talk about how they feel in a decisive kind of way. Its some sort of weird mix between Merry and Serious, and I think that is because half the people in the House are Merry and the other half Serious. For example, I'm pretty sure Harry is a Serious type, but he went to Gryffindor. And in Gryffindor, he is one of the quieter dudes. I think that Quadra wise, Gryffindor and Slytherin get most of the Decisive types, but the rest are split between. Similar situation with Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw, I'd imagine, since Ravenclaw only wants the types that think a lot and love to learn; that isn't Quadral differences, that's Club difference or Temperament difference.


----------



## Jakuri

ok not what i meant said:


> There seems to be a strong correlation between Hogwarts houses and socionics quadras. Maybe I'm onto something, maybe I'm making something out of nothing, I don't know... but here's what I've got so far.
> 
> *Alpha = Hufflepuff.* Childish perception, childish judgment. Judicious, Merry, Democratic. Open, receptive, fun and playful, fair, loyal, group-oriented, "nice", conflict-averse, naive, pleasure seeking. I concede that it's more Alpha SF than Alpha NT but even they've got those Hufflepuff vibes. Fe overload. Quite Si as well.
> 
> *Beta = Gryffindor.* Most obvious one, imo... The SJWs of the real _and_ the wizard world. Mature perception, childish judgment. Decisive, Merry, Aristocratic. Fiery, chivalrous, rash and impulsive, rambunctious, "us vs them" mentality, goal-oriented and determined, brave (with an exhibitionist twist). Fe and Se are most obvious, I think, but Se especially.
> 
> *Delta = Ravenclaw.* Childish perception, mature judgment. Judicious, Serious, Aristocratic. Independent / individualistic, curious, wise, mature, creative, industrious, accepting, detached, self-justified, relatively peaceful and composed, favor wit and wry humor. There's a lot of Ne at play here. Thirst for knowledge, unconventional thinking, a particular openness to new ideas that is unique to Ne, imo.
> 
> *Gamma = Slytherin.* Mature perception, mature judgment. Decisive, serious, democratic. Cunning, resourceful, proud, ambitious, vindictive, power-seeking, misunderstood, pragmatic, prioritize self-preservation heavily but still loyal to their own (and this brand of loyalty is stronger, more personal, and somewhat elitist compared to Alphas / Hufflepuffs). I also strongly agree with this: "but most Slytherins are _actually very kind_ (unless you happen to get on their bad side for some reason)" since it's how I view the gammas I've encountered irl... as well as myself, because I become quite spiteful when angry. Ni-Se and Fi-Te in a nutshell, really.
> 
> I think the houses corresponding animals fit the quadras quite well, too. I get that I'm kind of over-simplifying it but it is interesting to me how their interaction styles and perceptions of one another (A > B, B > D, G > B, etc) are similar to those seen in HP (H > G, G > S, R > H, etc), and I find it even more interesting how the quadras / houses on the Se-Ni axis are the ones duking it out, while the Ne-Si folks just sit back like, "Uh... seriously, guys? I just want to read my book / make jokes / play cards / eat this taco." It's sort of how I view the real world, with betas and gammas favoring competition and alphas and deltas prioritizing... peace... fair play? I can't think of a better word right now... I could also see SP = Gryffindor; SJ = Hufflepuff; NP = Ravenclaw; NJ = Slytherin.
> 
> What do you guys think? It's 5am and I'm like half-asleep right now. Blah. Unfortunately I'm not all that knowledgeable in the field of socionics but the epiphany hit me right as my head hit my pillow and I wanted to post it somewhere before I forgot.


I relate with Ravenclaw the most. Depending on my mood, my secondary house is either Hufflepuff or Slytherin, but personally Ravenpuff > Raverin. I think there is an argument to be made for Alpha ~ Ravenclaw (especially Alpha NT) and Delta ~ Hufflepuff. Also, it is interesting that the two quadras I relate more is "childish" in one of the two criteria (perception/judgment); and coincidentally one of the persons who knows me well once used the word "childlike" to describe me. True enough, I may be childlike, but I can be childish for sure lol.


----------



## inabox

Grace and Frankie:

This is show a great embodiment of the following values:
synflow- going towards people; acceptance of the human condition, their own and that of others
Si/Ne- sense of duty, loyalty, creativity, imagination, possibilities, hope
Fi-Te- personal relationships: their depth and how their meaningfulness can enrich life, how they can be used to help one discover oneself and others; sense of duty to others borne out of one's own conscience and kindness, public manifestation of personal values

Grace- 3 sp/so Te-ESTj
Frankie- 6w7 so/sx Fi-INFj
(they make a wonderful nonromantic example of duality btw <3 ; you can see how their relationships gradually make Grace a more moral, kind and open person and Frankie gets a somewhat thicker skin and a sturdiness/groundedness- the magic of duality)
Robert- 1w9 (?) sp/so Te-ESTj
Sol- 9w1 so/sx Ne-ENFp
(a wonderful example of activity relationships: with all its ups and downs, regarding life rhythms and viewpoints)
Bud- 1w9 (?) sp/so Te-ISTp (my dream man :'( )
Coyote- some kind of infantile
Jacob- sp/so maybe 9 Si-ISTp/Si-ISFp
(he and Frankie have activity relations; you can see the wonderful romantic attitudes of the infantile and caretaker play out between them)
Brianna- Te-ENTj


----------



## Serpent

Delta? Also wondering about No Country For Old Men, a similar movie in tone.


----------



## Immolate

Curious about these guys:


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

lets mosey said:


> Curious about these guys:


Aggressors talking about giving things their all, overall impression of Se. Merry too, seems pretty Fe - and concern about inner darkness makes me think maybe Fe is seen as an end goalpoint, something to strive for; inner darkness is to be fought against and yet expressed at the same time - HA or DS maybe? Seems Decisive>Judicious overall too. So. Beta STs.

Oh, and the thingie with the black hands seems kinda...weird. Like they were going for something impactful, and made it and its representations...clumsy, somehow. No subtlety there. Reminds me of Maureen from Rent.


----------



## Immolate

Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Aggressors talking about giving things their all, overall impression of Se. Merry too, seems pretty Fe - and concern about inner darkness makes me think maybe Fe is seen as an end goalpoint, something to strive for; inner darkness is to be fought against and yet expressed at the same time - HA or DS maybe? Seems Decisive>Judicious overall too. So. Beta STs.
> 
> Oh, and the thingie with the black hands seems kinda...weird. Like they were going for something impactful, and made it and its representations...clumsy, somehow. No subtlety there. Reminds me of Maureen from Rent.


Thank you 

Yes, the video itself gave me the impression of attempted Ni but I was back-and-forth as far as ethics. I'll actually mention @owlet because she's a lot more familiar with their work and the themes they explore. (You're part of the reason I'm listening and wondering, owlet.)


----------



## owlet

lets mosey said:


> Thank you
> 
> Yes, the video itself gave me the impression of attempted Ni but I was back-and-forth as far as ethics. I'll actually mention @*owlet* because she's a lot more familiar with their work and the themes they explore. (You're part of the reason I'm listening and wondering, owlet.)


Ohh! Yes, I'd be glad to get involved!
I'd say it's quite difficult to necessarily tell consistent IEs because each song on most of their albums is told from the POV of a specific character - so it's difficult to find IE usage links between, say, Velorium Camper and Afterman because the characters are completely different (probably SLE and SEI).
They've done one album which isn't concept, so those songs are most consistent, I think.
For example, Eraser:




(For what it's worth, I think they're a very 4ish band.)


----------



## Immolate

@Fenix Wulfheart @owlet I think I'm settling with Beta ST for now or at the very least decisive. I'll continue to listen 

---

I think he's obviously gamma, but I'm partial to this song at the moment and wanted to drop it here:


----------



## Immolate




----------



## inabox

Fi-EII; Fi-base with Ni-demonstrative and Ne-aux; all the sad Ne/Si. THE MOST DELTA NF BAND EVER. Ahem. If my life had a soundtrack it would have been The National. Very E sp/so 6-4-1.


----------



## Immolate

Straightforward beta dramatics?






Maybe someone out there in the void will respond. I can always hope, with this thread.


----------



## owlet

@lets mosey Ohh, Dream Theatre! I think Beta works pretty well for them, overall.

I'm curious about Devin Townsend, because they just do so many styles of music..


----------



## Immolate

owlet said:


> @*lets mosey* Ohh, Dream Theatre! I think Beta works pretty well for them, overall.


Ah, yes, someone heard me screaming into the night...

Would you say ST for this song in particular? roud:



> I'm curious about Devin Townsend, because they just do so many styles of music..


This one strikes me more alpha although I can't explain why. There's a lightness to it.


----------



## owlet

lets mosey said:


> Ah, yes, someone heard me screaming into the night...
> 
> Would you say ST for this song in particular? roud:


(I stumbled across the thread and saw you'd replied and was not disappointed by your choice!)
Ohh... Yes, I think I could see ST. I think they tend to switch pretty neatly between that an NF depending on the song.



> This one strikes me more alpha although I can't explain why. There's a lightness to it.


That's a good point! Their tone often changes each album, but I'd say this and Sky Blue are probably the more Alpha-ish albums. (Addicted might be Delta?)
Then they do songs like this:


----------



## Immolate

owlet said:


> (I stumbled across the thread and saw you'd replied and was not disappointed by your choice!)
> Ohh... Yes, I think I could see ST. I think they tend to switch pretty neatly between that an NF depending on the song.


(I wanted to see if you'd suggest NF!)



> That's a good point! Their tone often changes each album, but I'd say this and Sky Blue are probably the more Alpha-ish albums. (Addicted might be Delta?)
> Then they do songs like this:


What is this I'm hearing...


----------



## owlet

lets mosey said:


> (I wanted to see if you'd suggest NF!)


Oh no, a test! :ghost:



> What is this I'm hearing...


Magic~ (What quadra, though? :ghost3


----------



## Immolate

owlet said:


> Magic~ (What quadra, though? :ghost3


 Superficially it sounds beta, but the overall merry humor (as I perceive it, anyway) suggests alpha to me. Thoughts?

I was going to post the song alone but I quite like this scene:


----------



## FearAndTrembling

I love Gwen Stefani. What is she? I was just saying how I took out some spiderwebs and feel bad about it. He put some work in. Ruined his day. Then I thought of that song. I hate walking through spiderwebs. lol. Hate them touching me. And only the spider can walk on them without getting trapped right? 


* *




You think that we connectThat the chemistry's correct
Your words walk right through my ears
Presuming I like what I hear
And now I'm stuck in the web
You're spinning
You've got me for your prey
Sorry I'm not home right now
I'm walking into spiderwebs
So leave a message
And I'll call you back
A likely story, but leave a message
And I'll call you back
You're intruding on what's mine and
You're taking up my time
Don't have the courage inside me
To tell you please let me be
Communication, a telephonic invasion
I'm planning my escape
Sorry I'm not home right now
I'm walking into spiderwebs
So leave a message
And I'll call you back
A likely story, but leave a message
And I'll call you back









And I love this one too. Fuckin crank it. I am just a girl. THAT IS ALL YOU WILL LET ME BE. 







Take this pink ribbon off my eyes
I'm exposed
And it's no big surprise
Don't you think I know
Exactly where I stand
This world is forcing me
To hold your hand
'Cause I'm just a girl, little ol' me
Well don't let me out of your sight
Oh, I'm just a girl, all pretty and petite
So don't let me have any rights
Oh, I've had it up to here!

The moment that I step outside
So many reasons
For me to run and hide
I can't do the little things
I hold so dear
'Cause it's all those little things
That I fear

'Cause I'm just a girl
I'd rather not be
'Cause they won't let me drive
Late at night
Oh I'm just a girl
Guess I'm some kind of freak
'Cause they all sit and stare
With their eyes
Oh I'm just a girl
Take a good look at me
Just your typical prototype
Oh, I've had it up to here!

Oh, am I making myself clear?

I'm just a girl
I'm just a girl in the world
That's all that you'll let me be!

Oh I'm just a girl, living in captivity
Your rule of thumb
Make me worry some
Oh I'm just a girl, what's my destiny?
What I've succumbed to
Is making me numb
Oh I'm just a girl, my apologies
What I've become is so burdensome
Oh I'm just a girl, lucky me
Twiddle-dum there's no comparison

Oh, I've had it up to!
Oh, I've had it up to!!
Oh, I've had it up to here


----------



## Immolate

lol fatty

I prefer this kind of woman


----------



## FearAndTrembling

I brought up Shirley Manson earlier. Yes indeed. Her songs are awesome. She is awesome. 






I will lie for you
Beg and steal for you
I will crawl on hands and knees until you see
You're just like me

Violate all the love that I'm missing
Throw away all the pain that I'm living
You will believe in me
And I could never be ignored

I would die for you
I would kill for you
I would steal for you
I'd do time for you
I would wait for you
I'd make room for you
I'd sail ships for you
To be close to you
To be part of you
'Cause I believe in you
I believe in you
I would die for you


----------



## FearAndTrembling

And I love this kind of comedy. How is this not funny? lol. The ******* squid gets so mad when anyone thinks they can whoop his ass. "There is one thing they better not think..." Puffs out his chest. Show is hilarious.


----------



## Immolate




----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

lets mosey said:


>


Seems Beta Ni to me. Danger riding at my heel, but I will always press on. And when all is lost, I will not go quietly into the night. If I am to die, it will be at my choice. I stand and face the onslaught in the end. Willpower is paramount.


----------



## Immolate

Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Seems Beta Ni to me. Danger riding at my heel, but I will always press on. And when all is lost, I will not go quietly into the night. If I am to die, it will be at my choice. I stand and face the onslaught in the end. Willpower is paramount.


Yes, I like the way you've expressed this.


----------



## Immolate




----------



## owlet

@*lets mosey* I'd say both of those come across as quite Beta to me (more on the Ni-Fe side of things, I think). They remind me a bit, tune-wise, of Bauhaus.

How about Echo and the Bunnymen?


----------



## DOGSOUP

I'd very much appreciate any thoughts/opinions/impressions/ideas on this:







* *




Go, go, go, go now
Out of the nest, it's time
Go, go, go now
Circus girl without a safety net

Here, here now don't cry
You raised your hand for assignment
Tuck those ribbons under
Your helmet and be a good soldier

First my left foot then my right
Behind the other
Pantyhose running
In the cold

Mother the car is here
Somebody leave the light on
Green Limousine for the redhead
Dancing, dancing girl

And when I dance for him
Somebody leave the light on
Just in, just in case I like the dancing
I can remember where I come from

I walked into your dream
And now I've forgotten
How to dream my own dream
You are the clever one, aren't you?

Brides in veils for you
We told you all of our secrets
All but one and don't you even try
The phone has been disconnected

Dripping with blood and with time
And with your advice
Poison me
Against the moon

Mother the car is here
Somebody leave the light on
Blood chariot for the redhead
Dancing, dancing girl

He's gonna change my name
Maybe you'll leave the light on
Just in, just in case I like the dancing
I can remember where I come from

I escape into your escape into
Our very favorite fearscape
It's across the sky and across my heart
And I cross my legs oh my God

First my left foot then my right
Behind the other
Breadcrumbs lost
Under the snow

Mother, mother the car is here, here
Maybe, maybe you'll leave the light on
Father, father, father dancing girl
He's gonna change my name

Maybe you'll leave the light
Just in case I like the dancing
I can remember where I come, come, from

Mother, mother, mother




If anyone can be bothered with this it would be awesome too:







* *





I know what you want
The magpies have come
If you know me so well then
Tell me which hand I use?

Make them go
Make it go

Saw her there in the restaurant
Poppy don't go
I know your mother is a good one
But Poppy don't go
I'll take you home

Show me the things I've been missin'
Show me the ways I forgot to be speaking
Show me the ways to get back to the garden

Show me the ways to get around, get around
Show me the ways to button up
Buttons that have forgotten they're buttons
Well, we can't have that forgetting that

Girls, girls
What have we done?
What have we done to ourselves? Yes

Driving on the vine
Over closed lines
But officer I saw the sign

Thought I'd been through this in 1919
Counting the tears of ten thousand men
And gathered them all but my feet are slipping

There's something we left
On the windowsill
There's something we left, yes

We'll see how brave you are
We'll see how fast you'll be running
We'll see how brave you are
Yes, Anastasia
And all your dollies have friends

Thought she deserved no less than she'd give
Well, 'Happy Birthday', her blood's on my hands
It's kind of a shame 'cause I did like that dress

It's funny, the things
That you find in the rain
The things that you find, yeah

In the mall and in the date mines
In the knots still in her hair
On the bus I'm on the way down
On the way down all the girls seem to be there

We'll see how brave you are, oh yes
We'll see how fast you'll be running
We'll see how brave you are
We'll see

We'll see how brave you are, oh yes
We'll see how fast you'll be running
We'll see how brave you are
Yes, Anastasia

Come along now little darlin'
Come along now with me
Come along now little darlin'
We'll see how brave you are


----------



## Immolate




----------



## Scoobyscoob

lets mosey said:


>


Mass Effect is a very Gamma game with some Alpha elements woven in due to EA being the publisher. I'd say it's Gamma ILI first and foremost, much like Star Citizen. Space is the last refuge for the space geek and nerd. :tongue:


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

I always see Mass Effect as a story about the struggle between Gamma and Beta values with Gamma slightly prominent. You know, because choices enable the game to go different ways and the characters to manifest new sides.


----------



## Immolate




----------



## LibertyPrime

what quadra does this belong to? (serious)...GAMMA?


----------



## Jakuri

I have my own guess, but any guesses?









* *




I think both are NF, particularly EII. So it would be Delta. My alternate guess would be Alpha SF -- SEI.


----------



## Entropic

Not quite related, but I had a dream where I dreamt Sky was super muscular but still overweight though he had also visibly lost a lot of weight but wasn't athletic, so he was performing extreme athletic stunts which made no sense until you realize he was overweight AND super strong.


----------



## Entropic

Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Evanescence varies between ESI and SEE IMO.
> 
> no idea why, Jakuri, but your song strikes me as EIE or IEE.


Evanescence is Fe as fuck, though. Where do you get the Fi from?


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Entropic said:


> Not quite related, but I had a dream where I dreamt Sky was super muscular but still overweight though he had also visibly lost a lot of weight but wasn't athletic, so he was performing extreme athletic stunts which made no sense until you realize he was overweight AND super strong.


Sounds like a deep dream.


----------



## Immolate

aniso said:


> Don't know about this video, but the black eyes at the beginning reminded me of Bastille's "Pompeii". What would you type that video/song? The singer kinda reminds me of somebody I knew IRL who I remember typed as EII. I really like the song, but the video creeps me out.


I suppose it's slightly creepy 

Actually, with regards to the first video, I find it all the more tragic that some people will find the black eyes and the barren features creepy, because it's the belief that a person is broken or damaged that ends up destroying them in the end. There's nothing inherently wrong with a lot of what we find unsettling or disturbing.

As for Pompeii, the lyrics suggest dissatisfaction with emptiness, stagnation, meaninglessness. The black eyes are possibly meant to convey a lack of substance to life and people, as well as a willing blindness to the world around us and the consequences of how we choose to live our lives. I find "...we were caught up and lost in all of our vices / in your pose as the dust settled around us..." the most compelling. My initial impression is Alpha-Delta although I can't say I feel confident making judgments about Fe or Fi.

I rewatched The Revenant recently:






Gamma? Or no? Birdman by the same director strikes me as more Beta:


----------



## aniso

lets mosey said:


> I suppose it's slightly creepy
> 
> Actually, with regards to the first video, I find it all the more tragic that some people will find the black eyes and the barren features creepy, because it's the belief that a person is broken or damaged that ends up destroying them in the end. There's nothing inherently wrong with a lot of what we find unsettling or disturbing.
> 
> As for Pompeii, the lyrics suggest dissatisfaction with emptiness, stagnation, meaninglessness. The black eyes are possibly meant to convey a lack of substance to life and people, as well as a willing blindness to the world around us and the consequences of how we choose to live our lives. I find "...we were caught up and lost in all of our vices / in your pose as the dust settled around us..." the most compelling. My initial impression is Alpha-Delta although I can't say I feel confident making judgments about Fe or Fi.
> 
> I rewatched The Revenant recently:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gamma? Or no? Birdman by the same director strikes me as more Beta:


Haven't watched the movies you mentioned, so can't comment on that. 

As for what you said about people finding black eyes etc. creepy and how tragical that is... Well, I don't think it's THAT tragical as I think it's a natural self-defence mechanism (that might be stronger or weaker in one person or another) that sometimes can save a person's life. Like, you see something unusual that's very very out of sync with what you've seen as a healthy human being? Black eyes entirely? "Looks like some kind of a disease has damaged them," thinks your brain automatically. Your body instantly feels scared for it's own health - how to maintain it. Just if you learn that whichever physical deviations aren't contagious and will do you no harm, you can accept them and approach the person carrying them with a calm mind. Ofcourse it doesn't sound highly compassionate or something, but from what i know, i think that feeling creeped out is something of a natural reflex. Just - if dealing with real people who have some specifically odd visual characteristics (and not with a video of people having black eyes...or the like), i think one should be polite and try not to show that they're creeped out at first?  

I suddenly also remembered another creepy feeling. Today I got a bit creeped out of a mannequin in a store.  It's kind of...the fear of the unknown that gives one the feeling? Like, 'something's almost human, but not entirely'. Have you tried standing next to a mannequin but not exactly looking at it? I think you could understand what I mean, it's a weird feeling - seems like the piece of plastic is going to start moving or smth. 

As for Bastille - "Pompeii" is the only song i know of this band. Your explanation on the lyrics and black eyes in the video seems kinda credible  The singer, as i said, reminds me of an EII acquaintance, but I don't know enough to type them convincingly. From the sad-ish look on the singer's face and not particularly dramatical expressions (like, you can see that they're kinda sad, but you get a "oh, nevermind, i'll deal with this myself.." vibe off them?), I'd say - stereotypical Fi?  But that's just going by stereotypes that I've noticed.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

I have always thought mannequins were weird too. lol. Did you see that movie where one came to life and was the girl of this guy's dreams? 

Weird Science is better. They create a beautiful and intelligent woman like Dr Frankenstein. They can't get any in real life so make one on their computer. lol. Great movie. She seems like an SLE to me.


----------



## Immolate

aniso said:


> Haven't watched the movies you mentioned, so can't comment on that.
> 
> As for what you said about people finding black eyes etc. creepy and how tragical that is... Well, I don't think it's THAT tragical as I think it's a natural self-defence mechanism (that might be stronger or weaker in one person or another) that sometimes can save a person's life. Like, you see something unusual that's very very out of sync with what you've seen as a healthy human being? Black eyes entirely? "Looks like some kind of a disease has damaged them," thinks your brain automatically. Your body instantly feels scared for it's own health - how to maintain it. Just if you learn that whichever physical deviations aren't contagious and will do you no harm, you can accept them and approach the person carrying them with a calm mind. Ofcourse it doesn't sound highly compassionate or something, but from what i know, i think that feeling creeped out is something of a natural reflex. Just - if dealing with real people who have some specifically odd visual characteristics (and not with a video of people having black eyes...or the like), i think one should be polite and try not to show that they're creeped out at first?
> 
> I suddenly also remembered another creepy feeling. Today I got a bit creeped out of a mannequin in a store.  It's kind of...the fear of the unknown that gives one the feeling? Like, 'something's almost human, but not entirely'. Have you tried standing next to a mannequin but not exactly looking at it? I think you could understand what I mean, it's a weird feeling - seems like the piece of plastic is going to start moving or smth.
> 
> As for Bastille - "Pompeii" is the only song i know of this band. Your explanation on the lyrics and black eyes in the video seems kinda credible  The singer, as i said, reminds me of an EII acquaintance, but I don't know enough to type them convincingly. From the sad-ish look on the singer's face and not particularly dramatical expressions (like, you can see that they're kinda sad, but you get a "oh, nevermind, i'll deal with this myself.." vibe off them?), I'd say - stereotypical Fi?  But that's just going by stereotypes that I've noticed.


No problem. Hopefully someone else will chime in 

You raise a fair point about having a natural defense mechanism against things that fall outside of the norm (the human instinct to survive and endure) although my point wasn't specifically about physical characteristics so much as a general difference and lack of conformity, whether it's physical or mental or psychological conformity, etc. It's more about the identity or essence of a person, what makes them who they are at their core. What I meant to convey is that feeling creeped out reinforces the person's belief that they are "wrong" and need to change.

As for my explanation sounding kinda credible, I didn't mean to express it with any kind of authority. It's only my personal interpretation of the lyrics, and that interpretation could be lacking. I don't have much experience with Bastille, either, and I'm curious about your own interpretation of the song. The singer's expression or lack thereof didn't really register to me, but in hindsight he does seem to lack a certain movement and flexibility.


----------



## aniso

lets mosey said:


> No problem. Hopefully someone else will chime in
> 
> You raise a fair point about having a natural defense mechanism against things that fall outside of the norm (the human instinct to survive and endure) although my point wasn't specifically about physical characteristics so much as a general difference and lack of conformity, whether it's physical or mental or psychological conformity, etc. It's more about the identity or essence of a person, what makes them who they are at their core. What I meant to convey is that feeling creeped out reinforces the person's belief that they are "wrong" and need to change.
> 
> As for my explanation sounding kinda credible, I didn't mean to express it with any kind of authority. It's only my personal interpretation of the lyrics, and that interpretation could be lacking. I don't have much experience with Bastille, either, and I'm curious about your own interpretation of the song. The singer's expression or lack thereof didn't really register to me, but in hindsight he does seem to lack a certain movement and flexibility.


I remembered this video  I love the term "uncanny valley", it's so spot-on for some things - especially for mannequins and strange dolls, i think. 





As for the defence mechanisms and feeling creeped out, well... If it's not only about physical differences, but also about psychological, etc., I can see what you mean, but I don't know...i don't think i've encountered as many people feeling creeped out by somebody else's views or psychological differences without a reason? I think that, again, it's a defense mechanism. Maybe I live among free-spirited people who accept a huge variety of views and don't feel creeped out by them, dunno. But I think that, from what i've seen, when people feel creeped out by somebody else's behavior, then there's usually some kind of a basis for their concern (like, feeling threatened or smothered by another person's behavior, etc.). And again, i think it could be a defense mechanism, i think. Or did I misunderstood you?  

Uhhhhh. I don't have as much time and patience to go into the meaning of the lyrics right now. I once googled this song's lyrics and read the discussion about it on SongMeanings website. There was a comment that was much appreciated by other readers that stated - the song is about how a man gives in to the mediocrity of having a small but regularly paid job and settles for it, instead of following his big dreams, and then he stands there one time, seeing how all his dreams are slowly getting farther away from him, harder to reach. I could see that as a credible meaning, too.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

I came in this thread and saw Hank Hill. The biggest SLI that has ever existed. I would like people to comment on Alan Dershowitz too. These are real examples of Te. If Dershowtiz does not use Te I will totally remove myself from this subject because I know nothing.

I would love somebody to say he isn't a Te user. lol

Him vs Chomsky is a great example of Te vs Ti.


----------



## owlet

@aniso @lets mosey Sorry for intruding, the conversation you're having is very interesting!

I think Mosey is talking more about how perceived 'difference' in others is often viewed as somehow 'wrong' and there can be quite a strong reaction to it, while aniso is more talking about 'uncanny valley' kind of oddness (like recent androids).
I think there is quite a strong reaction to perceived difference in others. I recently overheard a conversation as I was walking back from university between two guys who were saying their housemate wasn't normal because he didn't leave his door open and spent a lot of time on the computer, and they were actually quite angry about it. There's a certain expectation of how people are supposed to be if they sound or look a certain way, depending on your own background. One of my sociolinguistics classes included a mention of people being rating more or less favourably based on fulfilling or not fulfilling these expectations - an unconscious bias towards what each individual perceives to be the 'norm'. People will often react negatively (fearfully or aggressively) to broken expectations. It's like if you expect people to have eyes that look a certain way, then they're black - that's 'creepy' because it's not what people expected to see. If you have no expectations, this doesn't happen, you just accept it for what it is.


----------



## Immolate

@owlet Yes, that was my overall point, especially because I perceive the video as a struggle with identity and a sense of inadequacy. How do you interpret the song and video?


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Entropic said:


> Evanescence is Fe as fuck, though. Where do you get the Fi from?


Really subdued vocals, hitting the notes in a sort of held back way. I can't explain it. It just seems like strong unconscious Fe.


----------



## Entropic

Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Really subdued vocals, hitting the notes in a sort of held back way. I can't explain it. It just seems like strong unconscious Fe.


Except the way she sings and animates is very typically Fe. I mean, she's a good singer, I was watching this video Lithium and I was impressed with how good she is (it's definitely why Evanescence even became a thing like with Nightwish becoming a thing because of Tarja Turunen), but I think you confuse the way the song is written in minor with Fi. Another example, Bruce Dickinson:






Bruce Dickinson is an SLE (also really amazing singer).

Notice how this song is written kinda similarly to Evanescence's; it's just power heavy metal music structure and while classic heavy metal bands like Iron Maiden definitely set the scene for that in the 80s, I think there's an effusiveness to how they sing that you don't see present in Fi types. While Kamelot isn't as nearly classically heavy metal but more melodic power metal (and despite being American, much more closer to European style), I think Roy Khan is a great example of an Fi singer:






It draws on the same way to create melodies that Iron Maiden (and subsequently Dickinson) originally laid out, but it's not as effusive. (I also fucking love Roy Khan.)

If we're going to look on the more harsher end of NWOBHM-inspired music but that's Fi, I guess Linkin Park isn't too bad as an example, actually:






Anyway, the reason why I refer to Linkin Park is because I think Chester Bennington is another one of those really good power singers (yeah, I fucking love Chester too) and I think you can actually hear how his singing style, even though it's more on the screamo end, is strongly inspired by the power singing of the 80s as exemplified by Dickinson or even Amy Lee. Another aspect that's similar here is that Linkin Park, as opposed to other nu metal bands, is much more driven by melody like this song Numb. This song writing style ties it more strongly to the NWOBHM and Iron Maiden than other nu metal bands like Limp Bizkit or System of a Down. 

Yet Chester is like one of the most Fi singers on this planet that's known in contemporary music, anyway, and you can definitely hear that in his voice when he sings. 

So the bottom-line here, is that while all of these singers have something stylistically in common (melody and/or vocal work) you can still hear how Fe vs Fi come out differently. If you want another example of Fe as sung through a melodious structure but on the softer end, I would definitely refer to Machinae Supremacy. I think they can slip under the radar and often come across as superficially Fi because he doesn't emphasize the Fe aspect of his singing (LSI).






It's only when you begin to analyze their lyrics and watch interviews that you realize that Robert Stjärnström (the singer) is a beta ST. I am pretty sure that he is a 4 fix though, which gives off that more melancholic tint to his voice that I think shows very beautifully in Beyond Good and Evil, though he is not nearly as great a singer as Amy Lee, Roy Khan, Bruce Dickinson or Chester Bennington (improved a lot since the early days though).

Also, as a last example of harsher power singing (and here you can really hear the lack of effusiveness) that I think is very clearly related to the old hardcore and NWOBHM movements in the 80s is Fade:






Fi singing. Fade's singer is also pretty good and he does some great vocal work in One Reason, but not quite as strong as the aforementioned. You can tell because there is just much more emotion and power in the voices of the former sans maybe Robert Stjärnström (but I think he has a very strong voice but he's just not as mechanically good as the others) that just makes their singing come across as more formidable and impressive.


----------



## Immolate

@Entropic I'm not as well-versed in genres or music in general, so I can't appreciate all of your points, but I do notice a difference in the songs you selected and I wonder if you agree with my impression of these songs as Fe (quickly chosen because they seem obvious to my ear):


----------



## owlet

lets mosey said:


> @*owlet* Yes, that was my overall point, especially because I perceive the video as a struggle with identity and a sense of inadequacy. How do you interpret the song and video?


Yes, I think the song/video is basically about how society is creating impossible goals for people to live up to. In terms of the robot, it seemed possibly like a metaphor for how impossible those goals are (a robot 'becoming' a human and not feeling good enough as a robot), or maybe that the 'robot' is a person who feels defective and isolated and who is trying to achieve these impossible standards. The result of trying so hard to be something you're not is when the robot end up destroying itself.


----------



## Entropic

@lets mosey

Devin Townsend definitely always came across as an Fe valuing type to me. I am familiar with the other bands though it's not something I've been listening to myself much (mostly been exposed to Devin Townsend because I was acquainted with someone that listened to the Devil Townsend Project), but yeah, I think you are right about the others. Dream Theater's album cover is very Fe by itself, for example. Marsa Volta is a cover you typically see in betas, and Coheed and Cambria is a very beta NF style of cover.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

After reviewing the presented evidence @Entropic and @lets mosey brought, I find myself agreeing. In particular I think Coheed and Cambria - Dark Side of me is a good example of Fe music to me. After comparing and contrasting, I realize I made the mistake of conflating subdued style with Fi. Especially when the music overwhelms the vocals. I tend to take that overwhelming as "subdued vocals thus Fi", which my actually be sort of opposite.

All I can say is that I was wrong, before. I relistened to Bring Me To Life from Evanescence. Definitely Fe. All the high notes are being used to emphasize emotional moments. The emotion itself is used to highlight points in the song, to increase impact. It is also fairly Se as a result. I saw the Se before and saw it being fairly subdued compared to other things I considered Fe, and decided it was SEE. Now, I don't believe that. I'm recanting 

With Fade - One Reason, on the other hand, the vocals are not subdued emotionally or anything, but the singer is very careful to...I don't know how to describe it, to "space" the words and measure things out properly in a way that makes it easier to understand the message behind the song. I find that I pay less attention to words than to tone and I find Fe songs do to some extent as well. With these Fi singers, I get the sense in all of them that the words matter more, and greater pain are taken to make the words flow with the music. The feeling behind it seems to "flow with the words", somehow, whereas Fe music the feeling behind it "flows with the music/tone" somehow. The message is important either way, but the very construction of the song emphasized this in different ways.

Side Note: I find myself believing instinctively that I would be comfortable and happy in that crowd in the Machinae Supremacy concert, despite knowing that I dislike loud overwhelming noise and I don't generally like concerts. It is contradictory and slightly confusing. I feel conflicted about it.

Also. Thank you, @Entropic, for your input. It led to me putting in a lot more thought and thinking about this in a new way I think is helping my understanding.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Devin Townsend Project isn't Fe in my opinion, but Ne.
"The individual is skilled at generating intellectual interest and curiosity in others and using others' curiosity to get them to do things. He easily sees parallels between different situations, areas of knowledge or skill, and people, and likes to establish contacts across different fields of knowledge and social groups, which allows him to be part of many things at once. He enjoys considering differing viewpoints and perspectives and seeing if they can be reconciled. He enjoys the beginning stages of just about anything - new projects, acquiring new skills, experiencing new people and relationships. Preparing for and launching something new is seen as having greater value than the process of experiencing what one already has and finishing what one has begun. The concept of "finishing" seems foreign to him. Instead of taking care to finish things and tie up all loose ends, he tends to drop things when he can't handle them any longer or realize that he has neglected them for too long (this might be equally related to suggestive introverted sensing)."

DTP are known for making each album completely different in style, genre and content every time - no one knows what to expect. They explore and play, attract new audiences, work on skills they dont currently have because they dont want to be the best at their own thing, but want to try everything. They redo songs constantly to give new atmospheres and new stories. It's like they look at an album idea and go "What can we do with this?" and cant pin anything down. Occasionally they will settle on an idea, like the Ziltoid concept albums, but the content of them are pretty far out (for example, two of them are almost-musical albums, you could see them played out on stage, whereas others are hard rock or metal and much more like music we're used to hearing from a metal band).

Let's look at Coast off the Ki album:





The way it goes, is the way it goes.
I'm all right to go
So go...
...you go.
They took their things and headed for the coast
Denied of all in life they needed most
Loves forgotten child
born into the wild
Come to the coast, come to the coast, come to the coast
come to the coast it will find you...
The fallout from the California glow
Toronto's frozen over this every man should know
I've forgotten now
Won't you show me how?
Come.
So run away, so run away from here.
Just run away, just run away my dear...
'Cause love's forgotten child...
So go into the wild
...Come.
Somebody took me away...something controls me...
This is a story - it feels quite positive and like there's a lot of adventure/excitement.

Then look at the same song on the Unplugged album:
(Sorry I can't find the song by itself, but it's the first track)





This is the same in lyrics, but how its done is threatening, like someone's trying to escape. They redid the story to explore the other side of the meaning in the lyrics.
​


----------



## Immolate

@Tad Cooper Alpha, then?


----------



## Tad Cooper

lets mosey said:


> @*Tad Cooper* Alpha, then?


For sure!


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Tad Cooper said:


> What would people say for this quote?
> 
> "A great deal of democratic enthusiasm descends from people like Rousseau, who believed in democracy because they thought mankind so wise and good that everyone deserved a share in the government. The danger of defending democracy on those grounds is that they are not true...I do not deserve a share in governing a hen-roost much less a nation. Nor do most people...The real reason for democracy is just the reverse. Mankind is so fallen that no man can be trusted with unchecked power over his fellows. Aristotle said that some people were only fit to be slaves. I do not contradict him. But I reject slavery because I see no men fit to be masters."


Looks like Ne devaluing and probably a logician view as well, since it is kind of down on people's potential for growth and ethics are not the main concern. Prolly a Gamma view, or maybe Beta ST. Reminds of me whatshername - I think it was Ayn Rand? The author that sparked a bunch of controversy over her views and her published works, and expressed those views in interviews.

EDIT: OMFG DEUS EX IS THE BESTEST OF THE BEST EVARRR!!! Nah, but seriously, I love Deus Ex. Been following it from the start. I type Adam Jensen as Beta ST, oddly enough, and so the cigarette holding actually seems to have some merit


----------



## Entropic

Hey people are talking about my favorite game (I've had Noctis as an avatar for several years now). 

Anyway, Noctis is definitely an ILI. I've watched every content of FFXV to date pretty much including Japanese media, and he's pretty blatant Fe PoLR in several scenes with clear Fi valuing. The game itself is very gamma with strong emphasis on Fi as relationships is the main point of the plot. He's reactive because he's 48x something in the enneagram; I am undecided if I think he's a core 4 or 8 right now; earlier content seemed to swing more towards 8w9 but some more recent content seems to swing more towards 4. Head fix doesn't really show up and I think anything goes but thus far 6 isn't too implausible which would make him triple reactive and is a pretty funny combination for an ILI. Also sx/so probably, just to give him even more emotional intensity. 

Btw @Night Huntress if you Google stuff Marilyn Manson has done on stage such as setting another band member on fire and fucking another person that ran up on stage, you'd realize ILIs can be pretty reactive when they feel like it.

Anyway, I found the Omen trailer really, really trite and boring. It's definitely full of symbolism but symbolism we've seen before and elsewhere. 

The dogs are Luna's called Umbra and Pryna. Pryna was the dog Prompto found in Brotherhood episode 2, which is the background that made him befriend Noctis. In the Omen trailer however, Pryna seems to rather represent Luna and how Noctis clings her as a guiding spirit (one reason why I've been thinking 6 fix for him; he does seem to rely a lot on others to tell him where to go)which is extremely consistent with their relationship to each other thus far and the symbolism that underline their names and roles in the plot, respectively. 

So that they used a dog metaphor simply struck me as a repeated message that we've already seen in Advent Children where Zack was represented by a wolf and how Cloud similarly kept walking in his shadow, following Zack's idea of how to be a true SOLDIER. 

Then we have the black and white motif that's been present from the very beginning since the Versus XIII days and it's apparent that they've done what Claude Lévi-Strauss would call an inverted myth moment where the meaning of both colors switch around. 

With that said, I think a lot of people tend to get too hung up over the more colloquial meaning of "'noctis" - in Latin it doesn't just mean of the night" but "nox" which is the original word; can also mean darkness and death. This ties back to how the Lucis household is supposed to be reaper worshippers (had to be censored and removed during the development because it would make the game push an adult rating in some countries such as China) and I find it funny how people are like "maybe Noctis is the bad guy" from this trailer. Bro, if you were paying attention to the symbolism you'd realize this long time ago. It's been there all along implied by his very name he goes by. That's also why I didn't find the trailer impressive because it told me nothing new except making me feel more disappointed in Luna. 

That Noctis sees Luna as a point of guidance is also obvious because the only source of light we have during night time is the moon. Sleep is another extremely prevalent theme in the game further reinforced by its focus on the night and the moon, and in the game sleep is a metaphor for death. I don't understand how people don't connect this either because it's so blatant when you put 2 and 2 together. I think this is even further reinforced when you watch the Kingsglaive movie (I recommend it btw, it's actually very good and on par with most high production Hollywood drama movies) and it's heavily implied that the evil forces are external and linked to the dead. 

This also goes back to the Versus XIII days when the game was a part of the Fabula Nova Crystallis universe with the goddess Etro as the unifying theme that is a goddess of death. Originally Noctis was supposed to be linked to Etro as perhaps something akin to an l'Cie and was granted the power to see who is going to die and when. 

Since the game was re-branded into XV this had to go because Etro has nothing to do with XV anymore, but it seems that they shifted the plot into something mythologically similar. That's also why it baffles me when people say they thought that the game was going to be more lighthearted than the original Versus XIII trailers and were surprised by the "darkness" in the Omen trailer. 

No bro, that never went anywhere and it's significant that the Omen trailer is presented as a dream-esque sequence. Dreaming is a part of sleep and therefore another part of death. That's why we see Umbra (the black dog) pretty much turn into Noctis. 

The only really interesting motif is that of mirrors and while I understand it's part meant to suggest parallelism the real meaning of course has to do with who is looking at oneself and why and what one sees when one does.

It's been very clear from the very beginning that Noctis has personality issues and some royally messy ones (not on the same level as Cloud though) and in relation to the original plot with Etro and l'Cie, these things are all connected. Then when you throw in the old kings of Lucis you actually have a story that really symbolically emphasizes death in a way no FF game prior has though many have dipped their feet with death motifs. 

Of course a game that's going to delve into the meaning of death (and ultimately ego death) is going to be dark. At the bottom of death is loss, especially loss of love. There's a reason death is considered the most tragic. 

Sorry for the rambles but I just have a lot of fucking thoughts with no one to discuss with because people give no fucks for symbols.


----------



## Vermillion

holy shit


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Night Huntress said:


> Okay well I think the rejection of a hierarchy while thinking in terms of hierarchy is different from rejecting the concept of hierarchy itself. I see it as the former because the person in the quote still thinks in terms of labels tacked onto vast groups of people, and where these people fit on the hierarchy (for example, he believes all of mankind is so terrible that they are only fit to be on the lowest rungs of the hierarchy) as opposed to removing the idea of hierarchy from the equation at all. To reject that concept would mean not to think in terms of slaves and masters.
> 
> At least imo. But it's a tiny quote, and I don't even know who said it. Context may change things.
> 
> 
> 
> My favorite picture of him. So peaceful :lovekitty:


Huh. I got the distinct sense from that quote that it was lumping all people into the same group of...basically losers...and saying that none are fit to lead. I think beta is more inclined to believe that some are above others, and so those should lead. This quote struck me as more "evening the playing field". Which could be aristocratic thinking or democratic thinking, because by being a leveling-out attitude it isn't clear what the starting point was. I'd say that the quote as-is has aristocratic leanings, but is it natural aristocracy or learned? That, I don't know.

The quote struck me as Fi-ish but it looks like it is either devaluing that Fi, or the Fi is lower and valued. Probably one of the two. I can't tell which -_-

Probably uttered (or first formulated) in a heated moment of frustration (then got polished up and reworded for a "proper" quote).

Or long story short, I don't really know and I'm frustrated by that lack of clarity. -_-


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

owlet said:


> Hm, I know GPB has fallen recently (thank you Brexit..), so maybe it is that now - it used to be roughly half the number of dollars.
> Ah, fair enough! It's still disappointing, though.
> 
> 
> Ah, this is an interesting thought! My SLE friend is quite drawn to the esoteric in terms of theatre for periods of time, but then generally prefers improvisation and physical theatre (obviously personal experience isn't the best thing to draw from, but hey).
> I'm quite curious about Ti as binary. How do you mean, something is or isn't?


Something is x or it is y. Something is The Truth About The World or it is not. That's why when Beta is religious, they refuse to change their views very easily. It is either the Truth or it is not. This sort of dualistic thinking is binary.

Its more complex, though, because it can be interpreted more deeply. For example, we can say that element A of religion X appears to be true, and Element B of religion Y seems to be true as well, but they also appear to contradict one another. A Beta ST would be confused by this. A Beta NF would synergize these idea, and try to figure out what element allows for the existence of both concepts as truth in order to figure out what the Real Truth is. If we can determine both A and B are true but B states that A is not true, then unknown value C must be true which allows A and B to be True at the same time.

In other words, things are often either true or not but there is more to it than that. This sort of mystic-symbolic thinking that synergizes ideas is what Beta STs need Beta NFs for. EIE is Dialectical and IEI is Vortical, so they approach it in different ways, but both are interpretive in nature.


----------



## Vermillion

Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Huh. I got the distinct sense from that quote that it was lumping all people into the same group of...basically losers...and saying that none are fit to lead. I think beta is more inclined to believe that some are above others, and so those should lead. This quote struck me as more "evening the playing field". Which could be aristocratic thinking or democratic thinking, because by being a leveling-out attitude it isn't clear what the starting point was. I'd say that the quote as-is has aristocratic leanings, but is it natural aristocracy or learned? That, I don't know.
> 
> The quote struck me as Fi-ish but it looks like it is either devaluing that Fi, or the Fi is lower and valued. Probably one of the two. I can't tell which -_-
> 
> Probably uttered (or first formulated) in a heated moment of frustration (then got polished up and reworded for a "proper" quote).
> 
> Or long story short, I don't really know and I'm frustrated by that lack of clarity. -_-


Yeah, I think democratic thinking levels out the playing field by rejecting the notion that people should be judged in terms of a playing field in the first place, though. Putting people in groups and assigning them labels based on characteristic traits is pretty straightforward aristocracy, in my opinion. And another reason I lean beta over delta is that the delta quadra is all about judging the individual's unique potential and then slotting them into the best possible social role they can fulfill. That said, it could be a heavily disillusioned form of delta thinking, who knows.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Disclaimer: I haven't played the game and know nothing more about it than you put here, but it interests me so I am responding anyway.



Entropic said:


> Anyway, Noctis is definitely an ILI. I've watched every content of FFXV to date pretty much including Japanese media, and he's pretty blatant Fe PoLR in several scenes with clear Fi valuing. The game itself is very gamma with strong emphasis on Fi as relationships is the main point of the plot. He's reactive because he's 48x something in the enneagram; I am undecided if I think he's a core 4 or 8 right now; earlier content seemed to swing more towards 8w9 but some more recent content seems to swing more towards 4. Head fix doesn't really show up and I think anything goes but thus far 6 isn't too implausible which would make him triple reactive and is a pretty funny combination for an ILI. Also sx/so probably, just to give him even more emotional intensity.


That intense AND Fe PoLR? O_O



Entropic said:


> With that said, I think a lot of people tend to get too hung up over the more colloquial meaning of "'noctis" - in Latin it doesn't just mean of the night" but "nox" which is the original word; can also mean darkness and death


Nox is even occasionally used as a name for mythological Incarnations of death or darkness. Like if you say that Death or Darkness can be represented by a specific being that is the physical manifestation of that concept, that's what I mean by an Incarnation. The original word was used across multiple contexts throughout various media, so why not use a word descended from it? The history of a thing, the choosing of its name and where that name comes from, these things matter.



Entropic said:


> This also goes back to the Versus XIII days when the game was a part of the Fabula Nova Crystallis universe with the goddess Etro as the unifying theme that is a goddess of death. Originally Noctis was supposed to be linked to Etro as perhaps something akin to an l'Cie and was granted the power to see who is going to die and when.


Wait, the plot of XIII was going to tie into XV? Aww man, why did they change it? I enjoyed XIII (haven't played its sequels)



Entropic said:


> It's been very clear from the very beginning that Noctis has personality issues and some royally messy ones (not on the same level as Cloud though) and in relation to the original plot with Etro and l'Cie, these things are all connected. Then when you throw in the old kings of Lucis you actually have a story that really symbolically emphasizes death in a way no FF game prior has though many have dipped their feet with death motifs.
> 
> Of course a game that's going to delve into the meaning of death (and ultimately ego death) is going to be dark. At the bottom of death is loss, especially loss of love. There's a reason death is considered the most tragic.


This sounds really interesting. What death symbolisms did they use (apart from dreams and Nox), and did they manage to keep the overall FF aesthetic while adding in the death-related elements?

How could people fail to connect death and dreams? A dream is a separation on several levels from the self. To die is to separate from the self. To sleep is to separate from the conscious world. Sleep is even called the "little death" in some languages.


----------



## Vermillion

owlet said:


> Hm, I know GPB has fallen recently (thank you Brexit..), so maybe it is that now - it used to be roughly half the number of dollars.
> Ah, fair enough! It's still disappointing, though.


Lol, it's not so bad. A friend did say I look tough as fuck in the jacket, so I guess others actually think it looks good.



> Ah, this is an interesting thought! My SLE friend is quite drawn to the esoteric in terms of theatre for periods of time, but then generally prefers improvisation and physical theatre (obviously personal experience isn't the best thing to draw from, but hey).
> I'm quite curious about Ti as binary. How do you mean, something is or isn't?


Well, if you're applying pure logic to something, you can either prove it's true or false, and there's no spectrum between the two. For example, truth tables for logic circuits can only result in one of two values. And when converting voltage to binary signals there's only two options -- high voltage is on, or 1, and low voltage is off, or 0. A logical principle has to apply completely to all contexts it encompasses; it can't be called purely logical if it applies to 40% of cases. It's not a valid principle then. Those are the nature of the principles Ti deals with, while Te deals with cause-effect logic, and eschews consistency for adaptability and context-based optimization of methods. It's Te that can assess likelihood and deal with spectrums.


----------



## Immolate

@Entropic lol wow I admit I haven't been able to read your entire post (I will when I can), but I did skim and I agree the dog reminded me of the wolf as representation of guilt/Zack in Advent Children. I have a guilty pleasure for FFVII as should be obvious.


----------



## orbit

@Night Huntress would Statistics be more Te-esque then?


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Night Huntress said:


> And yeah, I was reminded of that too, lol. There goes my promise to myself of "you're never gonna let yourself think fictional characters are hot again".


Why

(And here I was feeling angsty over the fact that most real people are just not very attractive, so most guys I've been into are cartoons/anime)


----------



## Vermillion

orbit said:


> @*Night Huntress* would Statistics be more Te-esque then?


Yes.



Distortions said:


> Why
> 
> (And here I was feeling angsty over the fact that most real people are just not very attractive, so most guys I've been into are cartoons/anime)


Because I feel kinda dumb and out of touch with reality for doing it, lol. 

But arguably, art is a real part of the world, too.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Night Huntress said:


> Because I feel kinda dumb and out of touch with reality for doing it, lol.
> 
> But arguably, art is a real part of the world, too.


Mostly I'd think it's inconvenient if you're only into fictional characters, and you _don't _feel like being forever alone. Makes me think of dying of thirst while looking at a picture of a glass of water while all the actual water around you is toxic, or something. :tongue:


---
On another note, been watching this show lately. Not entirely sure which Quadra I'd place it as, but this scene is kind of interesting...


----------



## Tad Cooper

lets mosey said:


> Personality is generally what attracts, though, isn't it? Noctis is a log (for me) at the moment.


True, but I can base hotness on looks alone if pushed - like sometimes youll see someone and go "Wow, theyre hot." but you wouldnt date them without seeing their personality? He doesnt have the hotness thing with me...I think because he looks like someone I could destroy in a fight.


----------



## Tad Cooper

owlet said:


> Hmm, this is tricky. I want to say Fi ego, maybe Gamma? I'm not sure..


Interesting! I thought it was very judgemental, but unsure if it was Fi or Ti (i.e. it's wrong Vs it doesnt work for me)


Night Huntress said:


> Are you insulting my preference in men :ninja:
> 
> @*owlet* @*Tad Cooper* I think the quote strikes me as some brand of aristocracy, because of the tendency to speak in sweeping groups and labels. Mankind, slaves, masters, nations, hen-roosts. The focus on hierarchy and the constant jump between labels/definitions makes me lean beta.


Your taste in men is fine, but I prefer different ones...
(Despite two being old or older, and one being younger than me - how is the last guy younger than me?!)

























Hmm that would kind of make sense? I guess it's a bit 'of the time' as well! 




Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Looks like Ne devaluing and probably a logician view as well, since it is kind of down on people's potential for growth and ethics are not the main concern. Prolly a Gamma view, or maybe Beta ST. Reminds of me whatshername - I think it was Ayn Rand? The author that sparked a bunch of controversy over her views and her published works, and expressed those views in interviews.
> 
> EDIT: OMFG DEUS EX IS THE BESTEST OF THE BEST EVARRR!!! Nah, but seriously, I love Deus Ex. Been following it from the start. I type Adam Jensen as Beta ST, oddly enough, and so the cigarette holding actually seems to have some merit


Funnily it's actually CS Lewis! Makes a lot of sense! It's curious that it seems to be a bit of an author view...
(oh man Deus Ex was an epic game, I need to play the others...)


----------



## Dangerose

Aurora seems Delta, no?
But this song reminds me of the 'victim' romance style maybe? curious





_
Broken mornings, broken nights and broken days in between
Open ground, the sky is open, makes an open scene

Just like in fiction, in every addiction
Oh fantasy's taking over, awake me

I've been looking for the conqueror
But you don't seem to come my way
I've been looking for the only one
But you don't seem to come my way

Broken me and broken them
You are broken too
Open ears, their eyes are open
Makes me call for you

But there's no seduction only destruction
Oh fantasy take me over and break me

[x2]
I've been looking for the conqueror
But you don't seem to come my way
I've been looking for the only one
But you don't seem to come my way

I feel ali-li-live
I feel ali-li-live
I feel ali-li-live
I feel ali-li-live

[x2]
I've been looking for the conqueror
But you don't seem to come my way
I've been looking for the only one
But you don't seem to come my way_

edit: Not relevant, there's just something I really like about this song. I might be interpreting it as victim rather than childlike, come to think about it, because my mental music video involved, like, Norse gods or something and the girl one read some prophecy or something that another god would come and conquer her and then she'd marry him or something  Like basically "I, a force unto myself, have been waiting to be conquered by another force" but I just realized that 'conqueror' might be interpreted as "the one who will conquer my enemies". . . which would probably be more 'childlike'?

I can get a religious interpretation of it too, maybe that's intended, since she seems to be in a church-type thing for a lot of the music video, though even then it's cooler with the Norse god plotline


----------



## Entropic

Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Disclaimer: I haven't played the game and know nothing more about it than you put here, but it interests me so I am responding anyway.


Good luck playing it as it's not even out yet 

There's a free demo to download from the PS Store called Platinum Demo however. 



> That intense AND Fe PoLR? O_O


Sure. It makes him very honest with his feelings even if it goes against social norms of how to express oneself. For example, I just watched this extra anime sequence that comes with the Kingsglaive blueray version and at the end it show how Noctis meets Luna for the first time as a child. So Luna, being an ethician, presents herself fitting for a princess e.g. her name, titles etc., but Noctis just got super shy and didn't say anything until Regis told him to present himself at which point he just said "I'm Noctis" lol. Strong Fe would definitely follow suit there according to the social tone already set. 



> Nox is even occasionally used as a name for mythological Incarnations of death or darkness. Like if you say that Death or Darkness can be represented by a specific being that is the physical manifestation of that concept, that's what I mean by an Incarnation. The original word was used across multiple contexts throughout various media, so why not use a word descended from it? The history of a thing, the choosing of its name and where that name comes from, these things matter.


Yeah, I agree. When you pick a symbol it shouldn't just be done because it's cool or whatever, because if you do that it doesn't mean anything. It needs to be placed within its own historical context. 



> Wait, the plot of XIII was going to tie into XV? Aww man, why did they change it? I enjoyed XIII (haven't played its sequels)


Because they changed it from a side game to a mainline game, which is part because if they hadn't, the game had never finished, and they needed a mainline game after FFXIII and they had no other game in development. Since FFXV has had a very rough development cycle (10+ years), it made more sense for Square Enix to take FF Versus XIII and turn it into FFXV. It saved them a lot of time and resources as opposed to making an entirely new game and scrap Versus XIII, which I'm very sure they would have had once they made Nomura focus on Kingdom Hearts. The game would never otherwise have gained the resources it needed in order to be completed. 


* *




Final Fantasy XV was announced in 2006 as Final Fantasy Versus XIII: the title was intended to show its standing as an opposite of Final Fantasy XIII, along with representing some of its themes.[17] During its transition, Final Fantasy XV became "disconnected" from the mythos: while it exists as a base, specific terminology was removed, and its role was reduced to a low-key thematic connection around which original lore was created.[3][4][5][18][6] Speaking on the subject between 2015 and 2016, Tabata has stated that he did not want to distance fans from the series, and wanted to distance Final Fantasy XV from Final Fantasy XIII:[4][5][6]

We didn’t take the FNC too much into account when developing FFXV mostly because the world of FFXIII and FFXV are completely different. And I think with each FF title people want stories that can be experienced on its own without much background knowledge or something like that so keeping the FNC myth from FFXIII onto FFXV wouldn’t be a very good idea.
—Hajime Tabata in a video interview during Barcelona World Games 2016 with HobbyConsolas
[6]
There are two main reasons for [using the Fabula Nova Crystallis mythos]. The first is that the world of FFXV was originally designed with these elements and links to the Fabula Nova Crystallis mythology in mind. When we came to reajust the game and change it from Versus XIII to XV, we felt it was much better to keep them in there and incorporate them in a very natural way, rather than try and remove all of them at any expense. We'd lose a lot of the world and its attraction if we did that. But why we decided to remove all the specific terminology from FFXIII was because, if you start the story and we introduce these words and ideas from the start, people will think it's still very much part of the FFXIII world. So you'd lose some of the identity as FFXV, and we really want to avoid that. Instead, we decided to not use this specific terminology and to introduce the language of the game in an easy and understandable way, that anyone can follow when they get into the game from there.
—Hajime Tabata in an interview during the 2015 Gamescom event, as recorded in English by Finaland.
[5]
In another interview, Tabata elaborated that the branding and elements directly related to Fabula Nova Crystallis were removed so the game could be marketed as a new product anyone could play and understand. Despite this, aesthetic and other elements were retained. In Tabata's words: "It was a complicated issue, but we had to make a decision about it."[19] Despite sharing only a tenuous connection, it uses common themes including destiny and human reaction to it, the role of the divine in human lives, and crystals shaping civilization.

The "Versus XIII" name comes into play in juxtaposition to Final Fantasy XIII and its sequels that take place in fantastical worlds that are literally and culturally disconnected (Cocoon and Gran Pulse in Final Fantasy XIII; the different eras and timelines in Final Fantasy XIII-2, as well as the normal world and Valhalla; and Nova Chrysalia and the new world in Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII.). For "Versus XIII" Square wanted the world to be different from the original Final Fantasy XIII by presenting one whole, connected world. This theme has carried over to Final Fantasy XV in the form of a seamless open world.[20] In further juxtaposition to Final Fantasy XIII and its white overall color scheme, Final Fantasy Versus XIII, and thus Final Fantasy XV, have the theme of black, shown in the cast's clothes, the Kingdom of Lucis, and even the name of the original game engine, "Ebony" (the original name for the engine for Final Fantasy XIII was "White Engine").[21]






> This sounds really interesting. What death symbolisms did they use (apart from dreams and Nox), and did they manage to keep the overall FF aesthetic while adding in the death-related elements?


I definitely think it's a Final Fantasy game. Other death symbols include the color of black and skull motifs. If you pay attention to the clothing of the main cast, their clothes are all adorned with skulls. That's related to how the Lucis family was supposed to be reaper worshippers. 

Also, the main city of the Lucis kingdom is called Insomnia, though in this case, I think it's more a direct reference to the fact that Insomnia is built to resemble the Shunjuku district in Tokyo, which is one of the busiest commerce centers in Japan. Thus, it never sleeps because there is always some activity going on. Incidentally, the Square Enix headquarters is situated within or nearby Shunjuku. 

Other motifs include the notion of dawn and waking up. On the main cover, we see what was originally supposed to be the goddess Etro in a sleeping position; it's a direct reference to how the FFXV world Eos is prophesied to have an event similar to a great deluge where the entire world turns into a world of darkness and is saved by the warrior of light (referring back to the FFI days) who successfully awakens the sleeping goddess and she brings dawn back into the world. The game title song Somnus has the following lyrics:

_God sleeps
And children are able to light a flame
They never extinguish
But he will never awake
Separate everything,
This tragedy destroys,
every beloved thing.
And in this endless night,
In despair
He may see the dawn
That will awake him in the next morning_

It's a great song btw, I fucking love it. So many feels:






I prefer Apocalypsis Noctis though, which is one of the main boss battle themes:








> How could people fail to connect death and dreams? A dream is a separation on several levels from the self. To die is to separate from the self. To sleep is to separate from the conscious world. Sleep is even called the "little death" in some languages.


Exactly, which is why I don't understand how people don't realize this. Also, when you are asleep, you are connected to the unconscious world which in many ways is a transient state between life and death; you are not quite alive but you are not quite dead either. People are often capable of connecting with the afterworld by sleeping; the dream world transcends the physical plane. 

The more interesting connection that I see is how this connects to ego death though. The voice actor for Prompto said that he thought FFXV is a great coming-of-age story and it makes me think of Joseph Campbell's idea of the hero's journey which is another way of explaining ego death in fiction. 

I mean, there are so many ways we can die that are not always physical. Death is also just an end but that end also marks a new beginning. That's why the tarot card Death in the major arcana isn't just literally death as in things die, but it's about transition and change, how a new beginning can only become true when the old ends. 

This is especially true when we think of aging itself, to go through various life stages. When we do, we must also shed a bit of our old selves. That's what ego death implies. 



lets mosey said:


> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> @<b><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=39512" target="_blank">Entropic</a></b>
> <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention --> lol wow I admit I haven't been able to read your entire post (I will when I can), but I did skim and I agree the dog reminded me of the wolf as representation of guilt/Zack in Advent Children. I have a guilty pleasure for FFVII as should be obvious.


I actually enjoy AC too actually, though mostly for the action and the music. I really like it in this regard. I could never finish the actual main game though, even though I tried a couple of times. I just found it much more slow-paced when compared to VI released on the SNES prior. VI was actually the last mainline game I played; otherwise I've tried Crisis Core (but Zack is insufferable to me, I can't play it mostly because of his personality) and Dissidia. I've also played some mobile games like I am currently playing Mobius because I need my goddamn XV fix somewhere.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Beta vs Gamma? I think Gary's SLE.


----------



## Vermillion

What quadra is this?


----------



## Immolate

Night Huntress said:


> What quadra is this?


My teenage years, basically. I wonder what quadra people will suggest.

(Still working up towards that FFXV post, lol.)


----------



## owlet

Working on replies because I've fallen behind, but that song you posted is really nice @Night Huntress - I'll try to work out the quadra properly when I get back from class - my initial gut feeling is possibly SF Gamma, but I'll need to listen again.


----------



## owlet

Entropic said:


> Anyway, I found the Omen trailer really, really trite and boring. It's definitely full of symbolism but symbolism we've seen before and elsewhere.
> 
> The dogs are Luna's called Umbra and Pryna. Pryna was the dog Prompto found in Brotherhood episode 2, which is the background that made him befriend Noctis. In the Omen trailer however, Pryna seems to rather represent Luna and how Noctis clings her as a guiding spirit (one reason why I've been thinking 6 fix for him; he does seem to rely a lot on others to tell him where to go)which is extremely consistent with their relationship to each other thus far and the symbolism that underline their names and roles in the plot, respectively.
> 
> So that they used a dog metaphor simply struck me as a repeated message that we've already seen in Advent Children where Zack was represented by a wolf and how Cloud similarly kept walking in his shadow, following Zack's idea of how to be a true SOLDIER.


Thank you for explaining the dogs! So they're both separate for sure and not two representations of the same dog? (I haven't seen anything on the game aside from this trailer and a demonstration of a summon, so I know nothing)



> Of course a game that's going to delve into the meaning of death (and ultimately ego death) is going to be dark. At the bottom of death is loss, especially loss of love. There's a reason death is considered the most tragic.


I've thought about death being the ultimate loss in the way there's no hope (of bringing them back, ever seeing them again etc.) which makes me wonder if the dogs could represent hope and despair. That's just me musing it over, though.



Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Something is x or it is y. Something is The Truth About The World or it is not. That's why when Beta is religious, they refuse to change their views very easily. It is either the Truth or it is not. This sort of dualistic thinking is binary.
> 
> Its more complex, though, because it can be interpreted more deeply. For example, we can say that element A of religion X appears to be true, and Element B of religion Y seems to be true as well, but they also appear to contradict one another. A Beta ST would be confused by this. A Beta NF would synergize these idea, and try to figure out what element allows for the existence of both concepts as truth in order to figure out what the Real Truth is. *If we can determine both A and B are true but B states that A is not true, then unknown value C must be true which allows A and B to be True at the same time.*
> 
> In other words, things are often either true or not but there is more to it than that. This sort of mystic-symbolic thinking that synergizes ideas is what Beta STs need Beta NFs for. EIE is Dialectical and IEI is Vortical, so they approach it in different ways, but both are interpretive in nature.


Oh, I see, thank you for explaining  I wonder if a Beta ST might create a new rule or principle from which to work in order to accommodate two sensical aspects of two different and contradictory systems of belief, rather than simply being confused by it? There are many instances of two seemingly contradictory things that both make sense independently in life, so maybe having them contextualised would bypass the issue? 'This makes sense in context A, while this makes sense in context B', or something.



Night Huntress said:


> Lol, it's not so bad. A friend did say I look tough as fuck in the jacket, so I guess others actually think it looks good.


Well that's good then!  It's difficult if you don't like it yourself, though.



> Well, if you're applying pure logic to something, you can either prove it's true or false, and there's no spectrum between the two. For example, truth tables for logic circuits can only result in one of two values. And when converting voltage to binary signals there's only two options -- high voltage is on, or 1, and low voltage is off, or 0. A logical principle has to apply completely to all contexts it encompasses; it can't be called purely logical if it applies to 40% of cases. It's not a valid principle then. Those are the nature of the principles Ti deals with, while Te deals with cause-effect logic, and eschews consistency for adaptability and context-based optimization of methods. It's Te that can assess likelihood and deal with spectrums.


Thank you for the explanation! I wonder about Ti logic always having to be encompassing. There's this quote from Wikisocion:


> He holds highest those rules to which exceptions do not exist


Which makes me think that, although a Ti base type might not consider the other rules to the same standard, they wouldn't disregard them as illogical either - or not necessarily, at least. A logical spectrum rather than a logical binary. Especially for 4D Ti. What do you think?
I agree Te is a lot more flexible and adaptable, for sure.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

owlet said:


> Oh, I see, thank you for explaining  I wonder if a Beta ST might create a new rule or principle from which to work in order to accommodate two sensical aspects of two different and contradictory systems of belief, rather than simply being confused by it? There are many instances of two seemingly contradictory things that both make sense independently in life, so maybe having them contextualised would bypass the issue? 'This makes sense in context A, while this makes sense in context B', or something.


I'd imagine that Beta STs that become dualized become more willing and capable at synthesizing these sorts of ideas. I think their default mode is to dismiss the less likely one, and become confused if they are exactly equal in likelihood.

I do think 4D Ti struggles with exceptions less, and so deals with this better. However, LII in particular would not struggle with these sorts of things because of the presence of strong intuition aiding dealing with the abstract realm. So the experience is different for STs and NTs.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Entropic said:


> Good luck playing it as it's not even out yet
> 
> There's a free demo to download from the PS Store called Platinum Demo however.


Haha fair enough then. I figured it must be out somewhere based on your post, but I guess my gut instinct was off :/



Entropic said:


> Sure. It makes him very honest with his feelings even if it goes against social norms of how to express oneself. For example, I just watched this extra anime sequence that comes with the Kingsglaive blueray version and at the end it show how Noctis meets Luna for the first time as a child. So Luna, being an ethician, presents herself fitting for a princess e.g. her name, titles etc., but Noctis just got super shy and didn't say anything until Regis told him to present himself at which point he just said "I'm Noctis" lol. Strong Fe would definitely follow suit there according to the social tone already set.


Oh, poor guy. I'm just picturing the level of awkward and shyness of that scene. I just wanna give him a hug...



Entropic said:


> Because they changed it from a side game to a mainline game, which is part because if they hadn't, the game had never finished, and they needed a mainline game after FFXIII and they had no other game in development. Since FFXV has had a very rough development cycle (10+ years), it made more sense for Square Enix to take FF Versus XIII and turn it into FFXV. It saved them a lot of time and resources as opposed to making an entirely new game and scrap Versus XIII, which I'm very sure they would have had once they made Nomura focus on Kingdom Hearts. The game would never otherwise have gained the resources it needed in order to be completed.


That's a long-ass time to develop a game!

I wouldn't have thought if that this way, but yeah your argument about resource-expense makes sense. 



Entropic said:


> I definitely think it's a Final Fantasy game. Other death symbols include the color of black and skull motifs. If you pay attention to the clothing of the main cast, their clothes are all adorned with skulls. That's related to how the Lucis family was supposed to be reaper worshippers.
> 
> Also, the main city of the Lucis kingdom is called Insomnia, though in this case, I think it's more a direct reference to the fact that Insomnia is built to resemble the Shunjuku district in Tokyo, which is one of the busiest commerce centers in Japan. Thus, it never sleeps because there is always some activity going on. Incidentally, the Square Enix headquarters is situated within or nearby Shunjuku.
> 
> Other motifs include the notion of dawn and waking up. On the main cover, we see what was originally supposed to be the goddess Etro in a sleeping position; it's a direct reference to how the FFXV world Eos is prophesied to have an event similar to a great deluge where the entire world turns into a world of darkness and is saved by the warrior of light (referring back to the FFI days) who successfully awakens the sleeping goddess and she brings dawn back into the world. The game title song Somnus has the following lyrics:
> 
> _God sleeps
> And children are able to light a flame
> They never extinguish
> But he will never awake
> Separate everything,
> This tragedy destroys,
> every beloved thing.
> And in this endless night,
> In despair
> He may see the dawn
> That will awake him in the next morning_
> 
> It's a great song btw, I fucking love it. So many feels:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I prefer Apocalypsis Noctis though, which is one of the main boss battle themes:


So everything about the characters and the setting is themed to match these symbolisms in a special way, eh? That's pretty awesome! 

There seems to be a strong theme of hopelessness and things staying the same forever is a real risk, a risk to be fought, in this game.



Entropic said:


> Exactly, which is why I don't understand how people don't realize this. Also, when you are asleep, you are connected to the unconscious world which in many ways is a transient state between life and death; you are not quite alive but you are not quite dead either. People are often capable of connecting with the afterworld by sleeping; the dream world transcends the physical plane.
> 
> The more interesting connection that I see is how this connects to ego death though. The voice actor for Prompto said that he thought FFXV is a great coming-of-age story and it makes me think of Joseph Campbell's idea of the hero's journey which is another way of explaining ego death in fiction.
> 
> I mean, there are so many ways we can die that are not always physical. Death is also just an end but that end also marks a new beginning. That's why the tarot card Death in the major arcana isn't just literally death as in things die, but it's about transition and change, how a new beginning can only become true when the old ends.
> 
> This is especially true when we think of aging itself, to go through various life stages. When we do, we must also shed a bit of our old selves. That's what ego death implies.


I'd argue we are always connected to the world of the unconscious, if we only listen and watch, but that's kind of beside the point.

The Hero's Journey comment is over my head.

Definitely with you on the fact that death is not always physical. It also isn't always permanent. Look at reincarnation. Hell, look at generations. You live on through your children. Part of you lives on long after your death. Similarly, part of you lives on in the world of dreams after you sleep. Things are all connected, and always affecting one another. Death is nothing more and nothing less than the act of transformation, much as you say transition and change.


----------



## Entropic

owlet said:


> Thank you for explaining the dogs! So they're both separate for sure and not two representations of the same dog? (I haven't seen anything on the game aside from this trailer and a demonstration of a summon, so I know nothing)


No, they are separate dogs and are actual dogs so not metaphorical, either. They exist in the universe. 



> I've thought about death being the ultimate loss in the way there's no hope (of bringing them back, ever seeing them again etc.) which makes me wonder if the dogs could represent hope and despair. That's just me musing it over, though.


I agree. 



Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Haha fair enough then. I figured it must be out somewhere based on your post, but I guess my gut instinct was off :/


Soon! November 29th. 



> Oh, poor guy. I'm just picturing the level of awkward and shyness of that scene. I just wanna give him a hug...







It's at the end.




> That's a long-ass time to develop a game!
> 
> I wouldn't have thought if that this way, but yeah your argument about resource-expense makes sense.


Of course, theory, but as you say, it's what makes the most sense. 



> So everything about the characters and the setting is themed to match these symbolisms in a special way, eh? That's pretty awesome!


Yeah, I think thus far, there is always some symbolism that links things together which is nice. 



> There seems to be a strong theme of hopelessness and things staying the same forever is a real risk, a risk to be fought, in this game.


Hm, well the main themes are dealing with fate (being forced into a life you didn't choose vs carving your own path) and in relation to that, being stuck in the past vs the future (to hold on to something, to want to recreate the old vs moving forward and enjoying something new and unexpected) and betrayal and loss. I think if you watch Kingsglaive it gives you a good rundown on the main themes.



> I'd argue we are always connected to the world of the unconscious, if we only listen and watch, but that's kind of beside the point.
> 
> The Hero's Journey comment is over my head.
> 
> Definitely with you on the fact that death is not always physical. It also isn't always permanent. Look at reincarnation. Hell, look at generations. You live on through your children. Part of you lives on long after your death. Similarly, part of you lives on in the world of dreams after you sleep. Things are all connected, and always affecting one another. Death is nothing more and nothing less than the act of transformation, much as you say transition and change.


Agree in a sense, though I am not as inclined to think that we are passed on via generations as much as I think we do leave something behind like the people we met and how they changed when we did.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Entropic said:


> No, they are separate dogs and are actual dogs so not metaphorical, either. They exist in the universe.


Well, they can be both?


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Alpha's view of Beta? It seems to be Fe valuing, and Se seems to be the subject of jokes, but the story is very team oriented and mystical at times in the manner of Beta. It seems very democratic too, despite characters that are implied to be aristocratic in terms of the sort of people they are portayed as.

Also


----------



## aniso

Which quadra could this quirky video belong to?  Seems very non-serious, everyone's all happy and dancing in the end, so I'd think Alpha. Though the melody, despite being upbeat, has a sad-ish tone to it somewhere. Maybe hidden Fi in a Fe-land?


----------



## Immolate

@*Lord Fenix Wulfheart* @*owlet* I thought I'd bring the conversation here.

The Dispossessed, by Ursula Le Guin:



> You shall not go down twice to the same river, nor can you go home again. That he knew; indeed it was the basis of his view of the world. Yet from that acceptance of transience he evolved his vast theory, wherein what is most changeable is shown to be fullest of eternity, and your relationship to the river, and the river's relationship to you and to itself, turns out to be at once more complex and more reassuring than a mere lack of identity. You can go home again, the General Temporal Theory asserts, so long as you understand that home is a place where you have never been.





> There are souls, he thought, whose umbilicus has never been cut. They never got weaned from the universe. They do not understand death as an enemy; they look forward to rotting and turning into humus.





> Suffering is the condition on which we live. And when it comes you know it. You know it as the truth. Of course it's right to cure diseases, to prevent hunger and injustice, as the social organism does. But no society can change the nature of its existence. We can't prevent suffering. This pain and that pain, yes, but not Pain. A society can only relieve social suffering - unnecessary suffering. The rest remains. The root, the reality.





> If a book were written all in numbers, it would be true. It would be just. Nothing said in words ever came out quite even. Things in words got twisted and ran together, instead of staying straight and fitting together. But underneath the words, at the center, like the center of the Square, it all came out even. Everything could change, yet nothing would be lost. If you saw the numbers you could see that, the balance, the pattern. You saw the foundations of the world. And they were solid.





> We have nothing but our freedom. We have nothing to give you but your own freedom. We have no law but the single principle of mutual aid between individuals. We have no government but the single principle of free association. We have no states, no nations, no presidents, no premiers, no chiefs, no generals, no bosses, no bankers, no landlords, no wages, no charity, no police, no soldiers, no wars. Nor do we have much else. We are sharers, not owners. We are not prosperous. None of us is rich. None of us is powerful. If it is Anarres you want, if it is the future you seek, then I tell you that you must come to it with empty hands. You must come to it alone, and naked, as the child comes into the world, into his future, without any past, without any property, wholly dependent on other people for his life. You cannot take what you have not given, and you must give yourself. You cannot buy the Revolution. You cannot make the Revolution. You can only be the Revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.


*Edit:* Ursula K Leguin


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

@lets mosey

I feel like you just made my argument for me, just with these quotes. I think I need to read Leguin's other works. I have only read the Earthsea Cycle.

Huh. The Earthsea Cycle. It's a Cycle, not a series. Because everything in life ties into everything else, so its never really over. It just changes to something else. Its always Earthsea.


----------



## Immolate

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> @*lets mosey*
> 
> I feel like you just made my argument for me, just with these quotes. I think I need to read Leguin's other works. I have only read the Earthsea Cycle.
> 
> Huh. The Earthsea Cycle. It's a Cycle, not a series. Because everything in life ties into everything else, so its never really over. It just changes to something else. Its always Earthsea.


roud:

You can give The Left Hand of Darkness a try. I'm trying to remember which short-story collection I liked best.


----------



## Vermillion

owlet said:


> Thank you for the explanation! I wonder about Ti logic always having to be encompassing. There's this quote from Wikisocion:
> 
> Which makes me think that, although a Ti base type might not consider the other rules to the same standard, they wouldn't disregard them as illogical either - or not necessarily, at least. A logical spectrum rather than a logical binary. Especially for 4D Ti. What do you think?
> I agree Te is a lot more flexible and adaptable, for sure.


The nature of Ti -- when considered in a vacuum -- is that it seeks to discover and apply those rules, and by extension, models, which account for all contexts and are both syntactically and semantically sound. Now, these rules can apply to a variety of contexts and have different applications for each context, but in essence, the rule itself cannot be manipulated. Additionally, if something is both true and not true at the same time, that results in a logical contradiction, and that cannot be tolerated in a sound system, which is why when studying logic, contradictions and counterexamples are frequently used to prove that a rule is false and cannot be applied to any context whatsoever -- because if it fails even once, it cannot be called a rule at all.

It is Te (in a vacuum) that is operational, contextual logic, which is why it is also called "business logic" in some cases. Te is what determines that the logic depends on the variables, as opposed to being worried about the soundness of the rule itself. This is why Te doesn't care about logical syntax as much as Ti does. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soundness
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Completeness_(logic)

Now, of course normal individuals operate with more IEs than one, and also, we primarily converse with informal logic, because we can't afford to be so strictly deductive in our speech. So an actual Ti type may well recognize logical spectra. But put a Ti type and a Te type in an argument together and that is where you will see the differences in preference arise -- a Ti type will always revert to focusing on consistency, and a Te type will always default to making things as applicable and contextual as possible. That's why Ti and Fi are static functions, after all. They seek to determine principles that remain unchanging.

God, I love studying discrete mathematics. I get a kick out of being able to explain logical things correctly in conversations like this. Let it never be said that Ti PoLR types can't kick ass at this. My professor is likely Fi ego as well, the absolute legend. And we all still think he's the best at this subject. We have some dry-ass logical type to teach us when he's not around and she's terrible at explaining this subject.

My favorite bit is how he uses examples of people and friendship to explain logical relations, because a friendship is a "relation" too, lol. We were doing predicate logic, and he's like:

∀x.∃y.friend(x,y)

And he explains to us that this means everyone has a friend, and no one is ever alone! LMAO.

(The friend function was defined as friend(x,y) = y is a friend of x)


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

If Ti types stick to consistency and Te types stick to applicability, what does a type that has, say, Te Role do then? Are they more concerned with consistency or applicability? How does this work in terms of conscious/unconscious?


----------



## Vermillion

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> If Ti types stick to consistency and Te types stick to applicability, what does a type that has, say, Te Role do then? Are they more concerned with consistency or applicability? How does this work in terms of conscious/unconscious?


In terms of preference, you will always prioritize the IE you value over the one you don't. If a Te role type encounters both Te and Ti information of equal quality, they will value the Ti information way more. The role function is a skill you're passable at and can utilize in a social capacity when required, especially when you're feeling inadequate in your suggestive -- you may transfer to your role.

That said, valuation is always the highest indicator of what someone prefers. All unvalued functions, even when stronger in dimensionality, are in service of the valued ones.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Night Huntress said:


> In terms of preference, you will always prioritize the IE you value over the one you don't. If a Te role type encounters both Te and Ti information of equal quality, they will value the Ti information way more. The role function is a skill you're passable at and can utilize in a social capacity when required, especially when you're feeling inadequate in your suggestive -- you may transfer to your role.
> 
> That said, valuation is always the highest indicator of what someone prefers. All unvalued functions, even when stronger in dimensionality, are in service of the valued ones.


That's a good way to look at it. Thank you. This is interesting food for thought.


Hmm. So if feeling inadequate in suggestive leads to using Role...then an IEI may choose to default to comfortable surroundings and being home-y instead of going out and actively accomplishing things. That sounds like a good explanation of why the type does this despite valuing Se. The Role is compensating for inadequacy.

*sinks into thinking about stuff*


----------



## Vermillion

@*owlet*

As an addendum, there are many different systems of logic, and while several of their principles tally, several others don't. For example, propositional logic utilizes the _reductio ad absurdum_ rule, but this rule is not allowed in intuitionistic logic. When we speak in layman's terms, what is "logical" or "makes sense" is a hodgepodge of many different rules that may not all tally or fit in a coherent system. In a sense, many aspects of conversational logic are indefinite in form (hence "informal"). But when it comes to the purest forms of logic -- like the sort you can find in mathematics -- you cannot have any spectra. 

Ultimately, this form of ideal consistency is what Ti seeks to achieve, although in everyday terms it is impossible, because life isn't mathematics.


----------



## owlet

@Night Huntress Firstly, thank you for the in-depth explanation - I appreciate it c:

That does make a lot of sense, especially bringing in the other IEs making them more 'human' (Ti in a vacuum just wouldn't be possible in a person). I'm slightly afraid of Maths (really bad experience in school) so I'm not so sure about that side of things - I'll have to look into it further. I'm also glad you mentioned Ti PoLR types being good with logical consistency, it's too often that PoLR kind of assumes the person absolutely can't do that at all, while it's just that it's more.. 'basic' (not sure if that's the right word). But yes, thank you! that was very enlightening


----------



## ElliCat

Okay, I've been hanging back hoping if I read enough it'll all click, but it's not happening so I think I need to just get in and try it out myself.











I want to say Beta? Singer seems Fe, and I'm not getting cosy Si-Ne feelings...


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

The above - Fe HA?

And mine:


----------



## Wisteria

What Quadra do Pixar's - I mean, Blizzard's Overwatch trailers belong to? The previous games and the Warcraft movie seemed more Beta, but I guess the pure disney style of Overwatch is very Alpha. Not just stereo-typically, Ne and Fe valuing seems clear in most of these animations. (These trailers probably look really cheesy but it's entertaining to watch after seeing the characters in the actual game imo).


----------



## Immolate

@Lord Fenix Wulfheart 

_You'll remember that I served you well
Oceans rise, empires fall
We have seen each other through it all
And when push comes to shove
I will send a fully armed battalion to remind you of my love_

I want to say some manner of Fe and Se. 

@Wisteria I agree it seems very Alpha to me. The color, the softness, the lightheartedness. 

---

I watched this recently:






Despite the pacing and presentation of the trailer, it struck me as rather Delta: the potential for personal growth and goodness, providing for oneself through hard work and stability, peaceful and unobtrusive living, the nature of relationships and how they shape and move us, an acute awareness and understanding of the body, etc.


----------



## Verity

The upcoming Ghost in the Shell movie seems really Gamma:







I haven't seen the anime though, so who knows.



And I'm pretty confident that this series is Beta NF(although I wouldn't be entirely opposed to Gamma): 





(I highly recommend it to anyone who enjoys Shakesperian drama, it's pretty damn great.)


----------



## Immolate

Verity said:


> The upcoming Ghost in the Shell movie seems really Gamma:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't seen the anime though, so who knows.


The anime is fairly Gamma.







* *




They're keeping quite close to the aesthetic, at least.































































Not sure how to feel about this upcoming movie, not quadra-wise, but in general.


----------



## Immolate

* *




He's keeping busy
Yeah he's bleeding stones
With his machinations and his palindromes
It was anything but hear the voice
anything but hear the voice
It was anything but hear the voice
That says that we're all basically alone

Poor Professor Pynchon had only good intentions
When he put his Bunsen burners all away
And turning to a playground in a Petri dish
Where single cells would swing their fists
At anything that looks like easy prey
In this nature show that rages every day
It was then he heard his intuition say

We were all basically alone
And despite what all his studies had shown
That what's mistaken for closeness
Is just a case for mitosis
And why do some show no mercy
While others are painfully shy
Tell me doctor can you quantify
He just wants to know the reason, the reason why

Why do they congregate in groups of four
Scatter like a billion spores
And let the wind just carry them away?
How can kids be so mean?
Our famous doctor tried to glean
As he went home at the end of the day
In this nature show that rages every day
It was then he heard his intuition say

We were all basically alone
Despite what all his studies had shown
That what's mistaken for closeness
Is just a case of mitosis
Sure fatal doses of malcontent through osmosis
And why do some show no mercy
While others are painfully shy
Tell me doctor, can you quantify?
The reason why


----------



## Immolate

I was (re)watching the first few episodes with someone I believe to be Delta NF and they were extremely off-put by the power dynamics. I'd say there's a mix of Gamma and Beta characters for the most part.


Psst, @Scarlet Eyes


----------



## Scarlet Eyes

@lets mosey I haven't seen Stay Night or UBW yet, but it seems fairly Beta. Gamma's probably my second choice since I see a lot of Se.

I was also flipping through some Jigoku Shoujo episodes, and I think Delta's a good fit.


----------



## Verity

After watching the full first season, it seems I must take my previous statement back:


Verity said:


> And I'm pretty confident that this series is Beta NF(although I wouldn't be entirely opposed to Gamma):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (I highly recommend it to anyone who enjoys Shakesperian drama, it's pretty damn great.)


Not going to spoil anything specific, but the series takes a huge twist towards Delta NF towards the end of the season. It's kinda similar to _Hannibal_ in that it playfully uses Beta themes before diving into Fi territory.


----------



## Vermillion

opinions on quadra? Or is it too "mainstream" to be typed? I like this and even relate quite a bit.


----------



## Immolate

@Night Huntress It's possibly too mainstream if even I relate to it, lol. People tend to fall into holes a certain way and I wouldn't say behavior like that is exclusive to any one quadra, but vibe-wise I'll say Alpha or Beta because of the focus on social involvement and atmosphere as a means of coping.

---

Watched 3:10 to Yuma.






Movie seemed Delta to me, or at least Christian Bale's character seemed obviously Fi-valuing, but looking back at the trailer I'm open to other impressions. 

Extra scene just because:


----------



## Vermillion

lets mosey said:


> @*Night Huntress* It's possibly too mainstream if even I relate to it, lol. People tend to fall into holes a certain way and I wouldn't say behavior like that is exclusive to any one quadra, but vibe-wise I'll say Alpha or Beta because of the focus on social involvement and atmosphere as a means of coping.


Meh. Even if it was mainstream it was still very emotional for me.


----------



## Immolate

Night Huntress said:


> Meh. Even if it was mainstream it was still very emotional for me.


Oh, I didn't mean to downplay it like that. I related to it in a rather painful way for a while.


----------



## TheHuman

Beta as fuck:


----------



## Immolate

@TheHuman I agree it's quite Beta.

---

Someone mentioned they enjoyed cooking shows, specifically cooking shows that evaluate products, and I got to thinking about cooking competitions. 











Is something like this more on the Alpha side of things, or Delta?


----------



## DOGSOUP

lets mosey said:


> Someone mentioned they enjoyed cooking shows, specifically cooking shows that evaluate products, and I got to thinking about cooking competitions.
> --
> Is something like this more on the Alpha side of things, or Delta?


Something about the focus on craftsmanship and honing the skill and art of cooking strikes me as Delta-ish. 

Perhaps shows that focus more on the emotional affect food can have while encouraging exiting yet positive and uplifting competition would be more Alpha. (Honestly, every time I've caught a glimpse of Master Chef, the judges are pretending they are about to go all Gordon Ramsay on the food, then the happy music gets going and tension melts into pleasantness - there is no way a show that offers emotional catharsis as obvious as this would have nothing to do with Fe).







Meant to ask about this, is it typical Shakespeare, or does the change of setting change the entirety of it?


----------



## Immolate

DOGSOUP said:


> Something about the focus on craftsmanship and honing the skill and art of cooking strikes me as Delta-ish.
> 
> Perhaps shows that focus more on the emotional affect food can have while encouraging exiting yet positive and uplifting competition would be more Alpha. (Honestly, every time I've caught a glimpse of Master Chef, the judges are pretending they are about to go all Gordon Ramsay on the food, then the happy music gets going and tension melts into pleasantness - there is no way a show that offers emotional catharsis as obvious as this would have nothing to do with Fe).


That was my impression, too. There's a greater focus on craftsmanship, artistry, and judgments based on very exacting standards. Shows like Top Chef, Master Chef, Chopped (?) and so on focus a lot on the emotional atmosphere and the "drama" between the contestants, all very much at the expense of the food. 

Actually, The Great British Bake-Off just came to mind as a very pleasant and uplifting cooking competition.


----------



## owlet

@lets mosey I'd say GBBO was more along the Alpha side of things, but a lot of cooking competitions come across as more Delta to me, especially the more 'traditional' ones (I'll try and find some examples). @DOGSOUP it's interesting you said about Master Chef as Fe - I don't like it much, but I wonder about the creation of a 'tense' atmosphere as Fe, as then I'd say most competitions were quite Fe-based.

I remembered this song the other day and was curious (Alpha/Delta?)


----------



## DOGSOUP

owlet said:


> @lets mosey I'd say GBBO was more along the Alpha side of things, but a lot of cooking competitions come across as more Delta to me, especially the more 'traditional' ones (I'll try and find some examples). @DOGSOUP it's interesting you said about Master Chef as Fe - I don't like it much, but I wonder about the creation of a 'tense' atmosphere as Fe, as then I'd say most competitions were quite Fe-based.


Master Chef is pretty emotionally manipulative and calculative considering it's just a nice program about a cooking competition. But it does have a very positive outlook. Which I guess is... nice? 

Each type/quadra will probably approach competition in their way. What makes it very Fe to me is the focus on emotional affect and impact. What are they trying to achieve there? Make us worry for the participants. Will they survive this test, or be send home? It's painted and portrayed as highly dramatic event. And if they get another chance, we feel relief. If they are sent home, only the sad tunes will remain. I always think about how most of it must be scripted and planned in advance, or cut with very specific ideas in mind of they want to convey with these shows that are supposedly "realism".

Competition that aims to perfection of performance and flourishing in immensive pressur might be other than feeling-related.

I was also thinking how competition can great a feeling of unity in a group; we're in this together. One of the best ways to get students get to know each other better in the beginning of the semester seems to be dividing them into groups where they have to work for a common goal. It's also good to do it at this stage when there is no negative bias against their possible opponents (and no hard feelings etc.) It doesn't always have to be _that_ competetive either, but experiencing tension together and surviving the struggles, however small, would have an interesting affect on the members of the group.


----------



## Immolate

@owlet I agree Bake-Off is fairly Alpha. As for the tension of competition, I would say there's a difference between that and the way shows like Master Chef try to manipulate the emotional atmosphere and emphasize aspects like drama or companionship between contestants. I would say "tension" is actually more along the lines of Si/Se because it concerns a physiological response, and Si shows like Bake-Off are rather pleasant and relaxed in comparison to, let's say, Gordon Ramsay's explosive use of pressure and force to motivate or punish contestants.


----------



## owlet

DOGSOUP said:


> Master Chef is pretty emotionally manipulative and calculative considering it's just a nice program about a cooking competition. But it does have a very positive outlook. Which I guess is... nice?
> 
> Each type/quadra will probably approach competition in their way. What makes it very Fe to me is the focus on emotional affect and impact. What are they trying to achieve there? Make us worry for the participants. Will they survive this test, or be send home? It's painted and portrayed as highly dramatic event. And if they get another chance, we feel relief. If they are sent home, only the sad tunes will remain. I always think about how most of it must be scripted and planned in advance, or cut with very specific ideas in mind of they want to convey with these shows that are supposedly "realism".
> 
> Competition that aims to perfection of performance and flourishing in immensive pressur might be other than feeling-related.
> 
> I was also thinking how competition can great a feeling of unity in a group; we're in this together. One of the best ways to get students get to know each other better in the beginning of the semester seems to be dividing them into groups where they have to work for a common goal. It's also good to do it at this stage when there is no negative bias against their possible opponents (and no hard feelings etc.) It doesn't always have to be _that_ competetive either, but experiencing tension together and surviving the struggles, however small, would have an interesting affect on the members of the group.


Haha, I actually find Master Chef too competitive, personally - the pressure they pile on the contestants is stressful to watch, but I suppose that's meant to be part of the experience? They do create a strong emotional impact (or try to), I agree, although it's very overt and I imagined 4D Fe being a bit more subtle, but it's also a method of appealing to a particular audience and part of marketing, so there's that too. It's a lot less 'nurturing' than GBBO, which is an interesting comparison.
I think what you described in that last paragraph is the good side of competition (from my very personal perspective), without the intense pressure and negative impact of being a 'loser' than seems to end up in a lot of competitive contexts, such as sports in school. Some level of competition is supposed to be healthy - giving people motivation if they struggle with that!



lets mosey said:


> @*owlet* I agree Bake-Off is fairly Alpha. As for the tension of competition, I would say there's a difference between that and the way shows like Master Chef try to manipulate the emotional atmosphere and emphasize aspects like drama or companionship between contestants. I would say "tension" is actually more along the lines of Si/Se because it concerns a physiological response, and Si shows like Bake-Off are rather pleasant and relaxed in comparison to, let's say, Gordon Ramsay's explosive use of pressure and force to motivate or punish contestants.


Oh, I kind of put 'tension' into part of the emotional atmosphere creation because you feel tension as an internal state, but it's also crafted emotional response, because the audience is made to worry about the outcome. The drama and companionship, yes, for sure! I haven't really seen Gordon Ramsay properly, but he does give off a much more forceful vibe than many other chefs on TV.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

How would type this commercial? Apple seemed more Beta when Jobs was alive. They've become more cloyingly sentimental.






Beta:


----------



## Tad Cooper

owlet said:


> I remembered this song the other day and was curious (Alpha/Delta?)


I think probably more Gamma...
(from reading this anyway, and previous knowledge of Reuben haha Socionics Quadras: Gamma)


----------



## owlet

Tad Cooper said:


> I think probably more Gamma...
> (from reading this anyway, and previous knowledge of Reuben haha Socionics Quadras: Gamma)


How come Gamma for this particular song? I could see Gamma for some of their other songs for sure, though!


----------



## Tad Cooper

owlet said:


> How come Gamma for this particular song? I could see Gamma for some of their other songs for sure, though!


These bits:


Gamma types take a hard-line approach regarding ethical principles and the punishment, even revenge, on those who break them.
Gamma types place high value on personal loyalty, once they feel a close relationship has been established.


----------



## Immolate

Beta, although I'd say Noah was portrayed along the lines of LSE:






I find Aronofsky Beta in general.


----------



## Immolate

owlet said:


>


What made you consider Alpha for this song? Si/Ne valuing?


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Noah was such a bad movie.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

lets mosey said:


> Beta, although I'd say Noah was portrayed along the lines of LSE:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find Aronofsky Beta in general.



He's pushing Ti in his movies. But also showing its limits.

What about cognition styles? Like, somebody said I have DA cognition for sure. The world as a struggle between opposites. That is cross quadra. LSE and EIE both have DA cognition. ILI.Marxism/communism is DA too. 

"The essential distinguishing feature of the Dialectical style, is a view of the universe as a unified struggle of opposites. In speech it often uses syntactic constructions "if-then-else", the predictive branches of a developing process. Within limits, the Dialectic strives to find an intermediate point of dynamic equilibrium between contrasting extremes. Dialectical cognition is born from the colliding flow and counterflow of thought, the consciousness and unconsciousness. Thinkers of this style are characterized by an express inclination towards the synthesis of opposites, the removal of contradictions, which they so keenly perceive."


----------



## owlet

lets mosey said:


> What made you consider Alpha for this song? Si/Ne valuing?


It was a vague idea at the time, the vibe of keeping things lighter/less serious and 'matter of fact' about how it upset them.

With the first guy:
"Alphas dislike the idea that there is something going on "behind the scenes", preferring to keep things (especially personal motivations) as open and straightforward as possible."

With the second:
"Priority is given to keeping the partner happy in the sense of a good mood and amused on a daily basis, with avoidance of direct accusations or unnecessarily harsh criticism." (Although I guess the tone conflicts with the lyrics here, as he says it lightly, but could be considered quite harsh.)

I'm not particularly attached to that typing - I'm more interested in seeing how other people perceive it!


----------



## Immolate

owlet said:


> It was a vague idea at the time, the vibe of keeping things lighter/less serious and 'matter of fact' about how it upset them.
> 
> With the first guy:
> "Alphas dislike the idea that there is something going on "behind the scenes", preferring to keep things (especially personal motivations) as open and straightforward as possible."
> 
> With the second:
> "Priority is given to keeping the partner happy in the sense of a good mood and amused on a daily basis, with avoidance of direct accusations or unnecessarily harsh criticism." (Although I guess the tone conflicts with the lyrics here, as he says it lightly, but could be considered quite harsh.)
> 
> I'm not particularly attached to that typing - I'm more interested in seeing how other people perceive it!


In terms of overall tone, I agree it's a light song, but the lyrics do have a bit of weight: 

_That if you hurt me, I will hate you
If you hurt me, I will erase you
If you hurt me, I will hate you
If you hurt me, I will forget you_

Having said that, there isn't a sense of wanting to impose negative feelings or intentions on someone else. It seems more passive than that to me. "I'll hate you..." but that's where it ends.


----------



## owlet

lets mosey said:


> In terms of overall tone, I agree it's a light song, but the lyrics do have a bit of weight:
> 
> _That if you hurt me, I will hate you
> If you hurt me, I will erase you
> If you hurt me, I will hate you
> If you hurt me, I will forget you_
> 
> Having said that, there isn't a sense of wanting to impose negative feelings or intentions on someone else. It seems more passive than that to me. "I'll hate you..." but that's where it ends.


Yes, I think it's the kind of.. detached feeling, possibly? It's basically 'I'll hate you' as a fact, but without creating an openly negative atmosphere around it (like the second guy's part, with the girl saying 'So go take a hike' and he says 'And I was just like: alright'). There's no outburst, just acceptance and the resulting emotion existing, but not being displayed.

What do you think for it?


----------



## Immolate

owlet said:


> Yes, I think it's the kind of.. detached feeling, possibly? It's basically 'I'll hate you' as a fact, but without creating an openly negative atmosphere around it (like the second guy's part, with the girl saying 'So go take a hike' and he says 'And I was just like: alright'). There's no outburst, just acceptance and the resulting emotion existing, but not being displayed.
> 
> What do you think for it?


Yes, it's overall a bit passive to me. 

"I hate you..."
"Okay. What are you going to do about that?"
"I'm going to erase you!"
"Okay."

:tongue:

I'll keep the door open for other impressions.


----------



## To_august

Any ideas on Westworld? I've only started, but the series are pretty intriguing.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

@To_august 

"Are you real?"
"Well...if you can't tell, does it matter?"

This strikes me as avoiding a static, nailed down idea of reality. Constant questioning seems Pi to me. I'm leaning Ni. The writing seems to be concerned with what things really are, if you will, what is underlying the nature of things. And it is also concerned with getting along within it, even if you don't understand it. Seems maybe Te? NiTe view? I don't know, it's hard to say. -_-

What about this little snippet of ridiculousness?


----------



## Verity

To_august said:


> Any ideas on Westworld? I've only started, but the series are pretty intriguing.


Pretty sure it's Gamma in theme. Most of the main cast are Gammas as well, imo.

I'm really enjoying it.


----------



## To_august

@Lord Fenix Wulfheart and @Verity

I have a similar impression. So far the theme seems to revolve around exploration of human's nature, how true or false are the barriers of morality and what would become of people if they were put in a different context, situation and were given the kind of opportunity the amusement park provides.

_"Are you real?"
"Well...if you can't tell, does it matter?"
_
^This quote drew my attention as well. If it doesn't really matter if they are real or not, why people can't feel entitled to treat real people the same way they treat androids? Or why not treat androids as you treat real people? How much of a crutch is the law to the savagery of human nature, or is it just a redundance when it comes to moral decency? I only watched a couple episodes, but guess there must be more of fighting for the rights or having revenge tropes in future ones. So, I got a double-edged Fi-Ti vibe thus far with a Ni-Se back-up.


----------



## Verity

To_august said:


> I have a similar impression. So far the theme seems to revolve around exploration of human's nature, how true or false are the barriers of morality and what would become of people if they were put in a different context, situation and were given the kind of opportunity the amusement park provides.
> 
> _"Are you real?"
> "Well...if you can't tell, does it matter?"
> _
> ^This quote drew my attention as well. If it doesn't really matter if they are real or not, why people can't feel entitled to treat real people the same way they treat androids? Or why not treat androids as you treat real people? How much of a crutch is the law to the savagery of human nature, or is it just a redundance when it comes to moral decency? I only watched a couple episodes, but guess there must be more of fighting for the rights or having revenge tropes in future ones. So, I got a double-edged Fi-Ti vibe thus far with a Ni-Se back-up.


I agree, and that quote is central not only because it tells us something about the androids, but also because it asks us something about ourselves, e.g. what makes us humans? What _actually_ separates us from them?
* *




According to Ford: "Nothing"


 The series continually deconstructs the categorical differance between what is alive and dead, artificial and organic, predestined and random, etc... to reach a deeper understanding and to find the common denominator that connects, as well as to question our intuition about what is the right thing to do in a moral sense.


------

I somehow slowly love this song






The video seems very Ni, but that is about as far as I've gotten.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart




----------



## Immolate

Alpha, or Delta? I want to say Delta because the show focuses so much on relationships and exploring the inner growth and potential in people. I haven't watched this far into the show, but I like this sentiment in Pearl (and I also just came across this version and prefer it over the original English). I'll tag you, @*Distortions*, because I think I remember you using Pearl as your avatar for a while. Also Peridot.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@lets mosey
My impression is that it's a Delta NF show as well, even if I considered Alpha. This might be stereotypical but it does feel pretty IEE-ish to me in how it starts out so... well, "random" and seemingly silly in a way, but then things turns out to be more meaningful and heavy than they might seem at first glance.


----------



## Immolate

Distortions said:


> @lets mosey
> My impression is that it's a Delta NF show as well, even if I considered Alpha. This might be stereotypical but it does feel pretty IEE-ish to me in how it starts out so... well, "random" and seemingly silly in a way, but then things turns out to be more meaningful and heavy than they might seem at first glance.


That was my impression, too: I was unimpressed by the silliness of the initial episodes, but then the show started to explore the characters in ways that I found very meaningful.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

lets mosey said:


> Some of us must be playing a different game or missing the point. I'm honestly amused.


Oh? Do tell, secretive dancer.


----------



## Immolate

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Oh? Do tell, secretive dancer.





Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> It isn't about forming connections, its about pursuing your goals through rapidly shifting circumstances and worlds as reality disintegrates around you and only your heart can keep you going.


The game is built on strength of heart and strength of will. 

Even looking at the intro for the first game:






Sora looks at Riku in the distance, is blinded by the light and swept aside by the wave, not strong the way Riku is, he's forced to the depths of his heart to explore its inner workings and abilities, and you'd think he's the weaker of the two, except Riku's fearlessness and willingness to be subsumed by the darkness betrays the flaw in his heart, his dismissal of vulnerable feelings and connections, and this leaves him isolated and envious, greed and pride feed on him and he becomes a vessel for the darkness, eventually forced to take back his life through sheer force of will. 










A significant premise is that those with weak hearts perish in the face of struggle and become mindless beasts hungry for the light and warmth they've lost, continually corrupting and defiling, while those with strong hearts potentially lose their forms but continue to have a sense of self and the ability to exercise their will.

"Beyond, there is no light to protect you. But don't be afraid. Your heart is the mightiest weapon of all."

I end my short ramble.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

lets mosey said:


> The game is built on strength of heart and strength of will.
> 
> Even looking at the intro for the first game:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sora looks at Riku in the distance, is blinded by the light and swept aside by the wave, not strong the way Riku is, he's forced to the depths of his heart to explore its inner workings and abilities, and you'd think he's the weaker of the two, except Riku's fearlessness and willingness to be subsumed by the darkness betrays the flaw in his heart, his dismissal of vulnerable feelings and connections, and this leaves him isolated and envious, greed and pride feed on him and he becomes a vessel for the darkness, eventually forced to take back his life through sheer force of will.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *A significant premise is that those with weak hearts perish in the face of struggle and become mindless beasts hungry for the light and warmth they've lost, continually corrupting and defiling, while those with strong hearts potentially lose their forms but continue to have a sense of self and the ability to exercise their will.
> *
> "Beyond, there is no light to protect you. But don't be afraid. Your heart is the mightiest weapon of all."
> 
> I end my short ramble.


Ah. That's what I was getting at 

Unless I am missing something, it looks to me like you and I are in accord. I just put it differently. I think the most pertinent bit I said: "It isn't about forming connections, its about pursuing your goals through rapidly shifting circumstances and worlds as reality disintegrates around you and only your heart can keep you going. Its a battle for the self and what matters most rather than a battle for others and communing with your relations."

What I find interesting is the bolded. Because while that is definitely a theme in the game, it is also a bit misleading in my opinion. Those with a strong heart can maintain even their form, such as Sora, although he did still create a Nobody in the form of Roxas. So then it becomes about the sheer strength of your heart denying the very nature of a wound itself. It is about reality itself warping as your heart redefines what is and is not possible. Only your heart can keep you going when all that is, is not.

So if reality itself cannot be counted on but your heart can be, then it is fair to say that it is the heart that is the only real thing, is it not? Yet each character has a heart, and it is the fusion of heart and form that we call life. Hence the Heartless and the Nobodies. Without one, the other is still real...but not as much. So the heart is what enables us to live within our forms, and it is our forms that enable our heart to desire impact rather than float in a formless void. Would the worlds really exist without hearts? I think not, else why would Ansem seek the darkness of Kingdom Hearts? It is the power of the formless void, the raw essence of chaos and the ability to peel away form if we let it, that is what resides in our hearts. It is but our will, effort, blood sweat and tears, this is what change the world.

Our forms constrain this chaos. It is our forms that are Order, and the heart that is Chaos. The will to change the world comes from chaos, though it may use form and order to achieve goals. Like fighting something. That is both body and heart. For obvious reasons.

I'm ranting. So I shall end this here with what dignity I have left.

...


----------



## Immolate

@*Lord Fenix Wulfheart* Yes, I was very much agreeing with you.

Out of curiosity, what games in the series have you played through?


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

lets mosey said:


> @*Lord Fenix Wulfheart* Yes, I was very much agreeing with you.
> 
> Out of curiosity, what games in the series have you played through?


Just 1 and 2 and most of Chain of Memories. Which means, from what I hear, that some of my knowledge is probably wrong now.


----------



## Immolate

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Just 1 and 2 and most of Chain of Memories. Which means, from what I hear, that some of my knowledge is probably wrong now.


Oh, no, I think your interpretations are quite strong and valid. I just wanted to gauge what we could discuss because the series keeps throwing new elements into the mix.


----------



## Immolate

I was hyped for Mass Effect: Andromeda. Especially interested in the crafting.






But now I'm concerned.






The setup is like a bad Star Trek episode.


----------



## Word Dispenser

lets mosey said:


> I was hyped for Mass Effect: Andromeda. Especially interested in the crafting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But now I'm concerned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The setup is like a bad Star Trek episode.


Nope, still excited. Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee


----------



## Immolate

Word Dispenser said:


> Nope, still excited. Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee


I don't mind bad Star Trek episodes. 

But this. 

Hand me some of that excitement.


----------



## Word Dispenser

lets mosey said:


> I don't mind bad Star Trek episodes.
> 
> But this.
> 
> Hand me some of that excitement.


Okay, but it'll cost you. I charge 100 bucks per boost of excitement. Trust me, it's worth it.


----------



## Immolate

Word Dispenser said:


> Okay, but it'll cost you. I charge 100 bucks per boost of excitement. Trust me, it's worth it.


I'll take a fortune instead.


----------



## Word Dispenser

lets mosey said:


> I'll take a fortune instead.


Those cost two grins. :kitteh:


----------



## Immolate

Word Dispenser said:


> Those cost two grins. :kitteh:


Damn it.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

lets mosey said:


> Damn it.


Don't have two grins to spare? No worries. I got you covered


----------



## Immolate

Quite some attention to aesthetics: slow and artful movements of the body, very specific use of color to represent themes, ideas, etc.


----------



## Vermillion

Anyone for this? I recently stumbled across this band (and this song, thanks YouTube recommendations!) and I have never related to something more. Seems heavy on Si and Fi to me? 






After watching the video, it's worth keeping in mind that anything dropped over the waterfall in the end (Skógafoss) will eventually be swept by the stream back onto the beach the girl was dragging the coffin across (Reynisfjara). Adds so much meaning to everything <3 

The lyrics are gorgeous too. I especially love this verse:

Dag sem nótt hljóðið var svo rótt.
Þrotið þol lamað bros.
Áfram ríð, hjartað pumpar tárum.
Dag sem nótt ég geng nú einn.

_Day and night heart was uneased._
_Broken will frozen smile._
_Riding on, heart pumping tears._
_Day and night I walk alone.

_(translation obtained from:http://lyricstranslate.com/en/fjara-beach.html)


----------



## To_august

Just started playing it. Game is inspired by Haruki Murakami's short stories.






Also curious what people think of Sucker Punch. Seen another person trashing movie the other day, which reminded me of it. I quite liked the message of the movie that responsibility for our life lies on ourselves, and that we're the ones who deceive ourselves and the ones who can set us free, as well as the conveyance of the idea through the somewhat fantasy-theatrical style within postmodernistic framework and psychoanalytic motifs.





_"And finally this question, the mystery of whose story it will be. Of who draws the curtain. Who is it that chooses our steps in the dance? Who drives us mad? Lashes us with whips and crowns us with victory when we survive the impossible? Who is it, that does all of these things?
Who honors those we love for the very life we live? Who sends monsters to kill us, and at the same time sings that we will never die? Who teaches us what's real and how to laugh at lies? Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend? Who chains us? And who holds the key that can set us free... It's you. You have all the weapons you need. Now fight!"_


----------



## Immolate

To_august said:


> Just started playing it. Game is inspired by Haruki Murakami's short stories.


Murakami is quite Ne and Si.


What say you, @owlet?


----------



## Tad Cooper

@To_august the first game (Murakami one) seems kind of Ne, more like the Coraline film for me than Murakami's books - may just be the trailer though! Maybe Ne Ti....
Sucker Punch was decent, I think the aesthetics of it were good while the story could be a bit cliche. More about either delivering a personal message or creating feeling, Im unsure.


----------



## owlet

@lets mosey I think Murakami stories are very Ne/Si - the focus on the potential of the 'mundane', opportunities, the descriptions of sensations etc. are all very much in that field. I think that game doesn't exactly capture the tone of Murakami stories, but then it is 'inspired by' rather than a direct adaptation, and it's still Ne/Si, I think. I'd go for Alpha as its quadra! What did you think?


----------



## To_august

lets mosey said:


> Murakami is quite Ne and Si.


I've seen Murakami was typed ILI or SLI for the most part, but didn't look deep into his works myself. I tried to read A Wild Sheep Chase but didn't get far. Seemed boring with too many references to different things characters "sensed", what sound the elevator made, what kind of air they breath, the way bed sheets felt, what was the taste in someone's mouth and whatnot.


----------



## Immolate

To_august said:


> *I've seen Murakami was typed ILI or SLI for the most part*, but didn't look deep into his works myself. I tried to read A Wild Sheep Chase but didn't get far. Seemed boring with *too many references to different things characters "sensed"*, what sound the elevator made, what kind of air they breath, the way bed sheets felt, what was the taste in someone's mouth and whatnot.


I'd sooner say SLI because he focuses so much on sensory experiences. He's very much into food (the preparation, the look, the feel, the taste) as well as music (lots of references to jazz plus attempts at creating ambiance) and "mundane" experiences (hygiene, grooming, personal style).


----------



## Indiana Jones Fan

Does anybody have an idea as to what quadra Kansas (my favorite band) would belong to? Their most famous songs are "Carry On Wayward Son," "Dust in the Wind," and "Point of Know Return." I've included a few of their songs in this post (but only ones featuring the original, or mostly-original, line-up, though I still love most of the stuff from the other line-ups).


* *





Carry On Wayward Son:





Icarus II:





The Wall:





Miracles Out of Nowhere:





Child of Innocence:


----------



## Bash

Sounds Delta


----------



## ElliCat

Night Huntress said:


> Anyone for this? I recently stumbled across this band (and this song, thanks YouTube recommendations!) and I have never related to something more. Seems heavy on Si and Fi to me?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After watching the video, it's worth keeping in mind that anything dropped over the waterfall in the end (Skógafoss) will eventually be swept by the stream back onto the beach the girl was dragging the coffin across (Reynisfjara). Adds so much meaning to everything <3
> 
> The lyrics are gorgeous too. I especially love this verse:
> 
> Dag sem nótt hljóðið var svo rótt.
> Þrotið þol lamað bros.
> Áfram ríð, hjartað pumpar tárum.
> Dag sem nótt ég geng nú einn.
> 
> _Day and night heart was uneased._
> _Broken will frozen smile._
> _Riding on, heart pumping tears._
> _Day and night I walk alone.
> 
> _(translation obtained from:http://lyricstranslate.com/en/fjara-beach.html)


This song ripped my heart out the first time I heard it five years ago and it still gives me feels. I'm happy to claim it as Delta for totally selfish reasons (but I do get Si from it, and find Fi more likely than Fe).


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

I'm inclined to agree with you. It seems Si to me.


----------



## Jakuri

Ethical alpha methinks




(Translates as "HE4VEN ~Welcome to Heaven~")


----------



## Immolate




----------



## Jakuri

Not sure which quadra this song would fall into; my initial impression is Fi. Thinking ethical Delta, but I am open to other opinions, if anyone cares.


----------



## Verity

lets mosey said:


>


_Arrival_ is definitely very Fi themed. I lean towards Gamma because of how much it focuses on perception of time, I'd also label Villeneuve's other films(_Sicario_ and _Enemy_ specifically) as Gamma, and _Sicario_ is also a pretty good exploration of the relationship between Enneagram 1 and 8 through an Fi-perspective. All imo.

(Yeah, I got interested because he's probably my favourite mainstream director atm)


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Jakuri said:


> Not sure which quadra this song would fall into; my initial impression is Fi. Thinking ethical Delta, but I am open to other opinions, if anyone cares.


Seems really Ni, but unconscious Ni. Static use of Ni. Hmm. Also seems very Fi but also kind of Fe, expressing attitudes towards things with a yearning to belong at the same time. I'd say this is Delta NF mostly because it seems Static. It keeps leaping between states in a way I find really jarring. Like, its here, now its there. It seems really easily broken down into sections, if you will? Kinda like how scripting is sorta Static, because you have the sections. The intro, the build up, the...whassit called, then the climax? That sort of thing. There is no flow to it; the video is like several related scenes linked together by the crossbar thing that shifts it to the next. It is also hurried and frenetic in an extroverted way. I'd imagine the author is IEE.


----------



## Jakuri

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Seems really Ni, but unconscious Ni. Static use of Ni. Hmm. Also seems very Fi but also kind of Fe, expressing attitudes towards things with a yearning to belong at the same time. I'd say this is Delta NF mostly because it seems Static. It keeps leaping between states in a way I find really jarring. Like, its here, now its there. It seems really easily broken down into sections, if you will? Kinda like how scripting is sorta Static, because you have the sections. The intro, the build up, the...whassit called, then the climax? That sort of thing. There is no flow to it; the video is like several related scenes linked together by the crossbar thing that shifts it to the next. It is also hurried and frenetic in an extroverted way. I'd imagine the author is IEE.


Cool, glad to see that you agree with my delta NF assessment. I couldn't decide between IEE and EII but was leaning toward EII (51-49) because that Fi was too glaringly clear and couldn't see that much Fe, so Fe ignoring seemed to be more fitting...that would make Ni demonstrative. Was it the melody that made you think demonstrative Fe (which I can see, by the way)?


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Jakuri said:


> Cool, glad to see that you agree with my delta NF assessment. I couldn't decide between IEE and EII but was leaning toward EII (51-49) because that Fi was too glaringly clear and couldn't see that much Fe, so Fe ignoring seemed to be more fitting...that would make Ni demonstrative. Was it the melody that made you think demonstrative Fe (which I can see, by the way)?


The story and the jittery melodic backdrop seem extroverted perceptive. It seems like there is a backdrp of Fi to the Ne, and not the other way around. What stood out most to me was the way Ni was being used and muted at the same time. It felt to me like all the best opportunities to shift to another perspective were being hinted at and then ignored, in favor of a light story and some feelz and then weird transitions and bobbing around and floaties. It's like the song COULD have been awesome in a lot of ways, but instead its just sort of all over the place and meh. Subjectively speaking, of course.


----------



## Wisteria

Beta?






Strong Fi - Gamma or Delta?


----------



## Verity

Concerning _Westworld_, I found this article interesting:

*Edit: it seems I can't get the link to work for some reason. You'll have to paste it I guess:*

world socionics . blogspot . com/2017/04/westworld-hbo-series-socionics-analysis.html

*Edit 2: ok I dunno what to make of this, just remove the four spaces and paste.*


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

The name of the site is World Socionics at blogspot dot com. The article in question appears to be the most recent blog at that site. This will change over time, making it hard to discuss. I tested the inability to post a link for myself, and it did not work for me either. I suspect it has to do with the security settings of World Socionics, since we can link most anywhere from the forum.


----------



## Verity

Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> The name of the site is World Socionics at blogspot dot com. The article in question appears to be the most recent blog at that site. This will change over time, making it hard to discuss. I tested the inability to post a link for myself, and it did not work for me either. I suspect it has to do with the security settings of World Socionics, since we can link most anywhere from the forum.


Yup, you can't even google the specific article, although other articles show up. If anyone is interested enough they'll probably find it anyway. I also really recommend the other articles about historical people.

I found the article interesting because it kinda highlights what constitutes the valued quadra themes of a show in general. I was pretty certain that Westworld was Gamma due to the prevalent Fi-themes for example.
"Taking a closer look at R: what is interesting is that the plot of Westworld does depend on several R bonds to develop, being even central to it; yet, in the end, they are mostly revealed to be unimportant, besides the point, illusory or needing to be overruled. That is, R is understood but in the end considered to not be really 'the point'"


----------



## Immolate

Delta.






Leaning Gamma.


----------



## Wisteria

What quadra this band belongs to? or any thoughts what Cobain's type could have been? I watched an interview once and I've been curious ever since - I think he might have been EII-Ne or something similar.






And the Smiths anyone? I might be biased but a lot of Deltas I know seem to listen to them. Love the lowkey sarcasm in the lyrics.


----------



## To_august

Anybody's watching The Handmaid's Tale? Scenario seems like a Delta nightmare (a lot of focus on personal isolation, inability to develop one's potential, longing for simple life pleasures, also some anti Te stuff is going on). Though these are, probably, themes of many dystopian works. 
Female protagonist seems SLI.


----------



## Wisteria

This game seems Beta af to me

* *









Extremely dynamic, colourful, impactful, symbolical yet real-world focused. Fe-Se, more specifically Beta NF.
It seems like a really interesting game but I'm not sure I would be able to keep up. The visuals are crazy.





Delta

* *









I haven't even played this game yet and it makes me sad. It reminds me of Journey, the peaceful atmosphere and vast space. The game-play seems to have a Te element to it, the way you have to use and work around the environment to navigate through the game. 




Gamma SF?

* *


----------



## Wisteria

Alpha or Delta?

* *








Such a contrast with the older games which were Gamma quadra probably. BotW looks beautiful and aesthetically pleasing, seems more focused on exploration and possibility so Si-Ne. I lean Alpha, particularly SEI.

Sorry for making another post, I can't see my previous one (if it's there) because of the database bug


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Breath of the Wild looks Alpha to me. 

BTW, I see the game "The last guardian" posted up twice in your previous post.

You said "This is beta af to me. Extremely dynamic, colourful, impactful, symbolical yet real-world focused. Fe-Se, more specifically Beta NF. It seems like a really interesting game but I'm not sure I would be able to keep up. The visuals are crazy."

Then, under that, you post "Delta. I haven't even played this game yet and it makes me sad. It reminds me of Journey, the peaceful atmosphere and vast space. The game-play seems to have a Te element to it, the way you have to use and work around the environment to navigate through the game. "

Its the same trailer in both of them. You said something about a database error?


----------



## Immolate

@*Wisteria* ^^^

I agree with The Last Guardian, and also, Shadow of the Colossus:


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Wisteria said:


> Such a contrast with the older games which were Gamma quadra probably. BotW looks beautiful and aesthetically pleasing, seems more focused on exploration and possibility so Si-Ne. I lean Alpha, particularly SEI.
> 
> Sorry for making another post, I can't see my previous one (if it's there) because of the database bug[/spoiler]


Why Gamma for the older games?


----------



## Wisteria

Distortions said:


> Why Gamma for the older games?


Just a guess as it seems like the opposite of BotW which has a strong Si-Ne element to it. I was referring to the ones I have seen/played mostly, which is the Twilight princess and Majora's mask. Many of the characters were Fi, especially in the twilight princess. They portrayed many interesting characters who behaved in certain ways but had more hidden motives and personalities (like the masked kid for example). The characters were defined by their individual qualities in Zelda games, so it seems more like a democratic quadra for that reason. Also symbolism heavy, making it seem more Ni possibly, or quite intuitive at least. 



Lord Fenix Wulfheart said:


> Breath of the Wild looks Alpha to me.
> 
> BTW, I see the game "The last guardian" posted up twice in your previous post.
> 
> You said "This is beta af to me. Extremely dynamic, colourful, impactful, symbolical yet real-world focused. Fe-Se, more specifically Beta NF. It seems like a really interesting game but I'm not sure I would be able to keep up. The visuals are crazy."
> 
> Then, under that, you post "Delta. I haven't even played this game yet and it makes me sad. It reminds me of Journey, the peaceful atmosphere and vast space. The game-play seems to have a Te element to it, the way you have to use and work around the environment to navigate through the game. "
> 
> Its the same trailer in both of them. You said something about a database error?


 oops. I couldn't see my post after posting, otherwise I would have noticed that and fixed it. It completely disappeared...
The first one was supposed to be Persona 5, so I replaced it here;



Wisteria said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Extremely dynamic, colourful, impactful, symbolical yet real-world focused. Fe-Se, more specifically Beta NF.
> It seems like a really interesting game but I'm not sure I would be able to keep up. The visuals are crazy.





Immolate said:


> @*Wisteria* ^^^
> 
> I agree with The Last Guardian, and also, Shadow of the Colossus:


Was also wondering about this. Se? > Beta/Gamma?


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

wisteria said:


> just a guess as it seems like the opposite of botw which has a strong si-ne element to it. I was referring to the ones i have seen/played mostly, which is the twilight princess and majora's mask. Many of the characters were fi, especially in the twilight princess. They portrayed many interesting characters who behaved in certain ways but had more hidden motives and personalities (like the masked kid for example). The characters were defined by their individual qualities in zelda games, so it seems more like a democratic quadra for that reason. Also symbolism heavy, making it seem more ni possibly, or quite intuitive at least.
> 
> 
> 
> oops. I couldn't see my post after posting, otherwise i would have noticed that and fixed it. It completely disappeared...
> The first one was supposed to be persona 5, so i replaced it here;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> was also wondering about this. Se? > beta/gamma?


persona!!!! I friggin' love persona!!!!

Shadow of the Colossus was beautiful. I found it a touch boring, though, when there was lots of wandering to do and so little action. I prefer more challenging games for the most part.


----------



## owlet

@Wisteria I know @Tad Cooper has played some Persona 5 (unfortunately I haven't had the chance yet) so maybe she can weigh in on its quadra? From the trailers I could definitely see Beta NF.


----------



## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Come to think of it, I love absolutely every game that comes out of Atlus.

I also really like anime that is like that persona trailer, where there is a focus on this sort of thing. "However, mankind is said to have the power to overcome the most dire of predicaments". I love doing the same in my tabletop games, too. I stack the odds against my players and have them face off against the most horrific threats, and eventually save whole worlds. Grand heroism is a stark theme in my games. Of course, so is the monstrous will to overcome all...I run Vampire the Masquerade, too, what more need be said....So it isn't the heroism so much as it is the exertion of power and the striving to accomplish that I seek to have my games embody.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

^That's interesting, and pretty different from what I'm interested in. I mean, I can enjoy stories like that, but not for the grand heroism or the willpower to overcome-aspect.

Always wanted to try the Persona games though.

@*Wisteria*
Oh, it weirds me out to think of Twilight Princess as older. I believe it's the last zelda game I played. >_>;


----------



## Wisteria

Distortions said:


> ^That's interesting, and pretty different from what I'm interested in. I mean, I can enjoy stories like that, but not for the grand heroism or the willpower to overcome-aspect.
> 
> Always wanted to try the Persona games though.
> 
> @*Wisteria*
> Oh, it weirds me out to think of Twilight Princess as older. I believe it's the last zelda game I played. >_>;


Same, most of time want to play a game that has an intriguing story/lore in an atmospheric world, like Bloodborne or the Witcher 3. Decent ost is also important. The only reason I would be interested in P5 is because the persona concept sounds interesting and it's artistic visuals. Overcoming challenges can be satisfying too. Boss fights particularly. now that I mention it, I just recognized your sig quote! that's a good game, very challenging though. 

twilight princess is almost ten years old! ^-^


----------



## Tad Cooper

@Wisteria I think Persona 5 is probably NT in some way, but would be okay with Se for some of the game too....it varies in tone a lot.


----------



## Cat Brainz




----------



## d e c a d e n t

Wisteria said:


> Same, most of time want to play a game that has an intriguing story/lore in an atmospheric world, like Bloodborne or the Witcher 3. Decent ost is also important. The only reason I would be interested in P5 is because the persona concept sounds interesting and it's artistic visuals. Overcoming challenges can be satisfying too. Boss fights particularly. now that I mention it, I just recognized your sig quote! that's a good game, very challenging though.
> 
> twilight princess is almost ten years old! ^-^


No... Now I feel old. >_< I mean, it's relatively new

My sig quote? I didn't realize that was from a game.  I got it from a song.


----------



## Wisteria

Distortions said:


> No... Now I feel old. >_< I mean, it's relatively new
> 
> My sig quote? I didn't realize that was from a game.  I got it from a song.


 oops, my bad, think I got the quote wrong. I thought it was reference to Furi.


----------



## Immolate

Wisteria said:


> Immolate said:
> 
> 
> 
> @*Wisteria* ^^^
> 
> I agree with The Last Guardian, and also, Shadow of the Colossus:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Was also wondering about this. Se? > Beta/Gamma?
Click to expand...

I would say Delta for both. What about Shadow of the Colossus gives you an Se impression (if that's what you're referring to)?


----------



## Wisteria

Immolate said:


> I would say Delta for both. What about Shadow of the Colossus gives you an Se impression (if that's what you're referring to)?


Oh? I get that, they are very similar games in setting and atmosphere. The trailer had a strong focus on physical sensory detail (which might be more Si in socionics actually), and the impacting movement of the character amongst the...colossus? (Haven't played the game yet, so I don't know what those giants are called!). It's action focused, very in the moment. 

The themes of the last guardian are trust/companionship, so it seems more like Fi to me than SotC does, therefore making Delta more obvious. Both seem to have mysterious element to them though actually, and venturing into the unknown. So maybe Delta does make sense for this game also. My thoughts about it being Se may be more characteristic of a Judicious quadra (being more aware in a mobilised state than a relaxed one) and the action in the trailer is shown in great detail.


----------



## Immolate

Wisteria said:


> Oh? I get that, they are very similar games in setting and atmosphere. The trailer had a strong focus on physical sensory detail (which might be more Si in socionics actually), and the impacting movement of the character amongst the...colossus? (Haven't played the game yet, so I don't know what those giants are called!). It's action focused, very in the moment.
> 
> The themes of the last guardian are trust/companionship, so it seems more like Fi to me than SotC does, therefore making Delta more obvious. Both seem to have mysterious element to them though actually, and venturing into the unknown. So maybe Delta does make sense for this game also. My thoughts about it being Se may be more characteristic of a Judicious quadra (being more aware in a mobilised state than a relaxed one) and the action in the trailer is shown in great detail.


SotC is actually a very "slow" game in that you're free to explore the environment but there's very little happening in that environment aside from the colossi, and the colossi don't tend to interact with you until you approach them with hostile intent. There's an empty quality to the game that reflects the fact you're alone on a literal and personal level, as the game is about entering a forbidden land to revive a loved one. A lot of the narrative and setting is left up to interpretation rather than explicitly stated. In hindsight, that particular trailer may not have been the best representation of the game, but I can see arguments for Gamma given what you've said.


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## Lord Fenix Wulfheart

Immolate said:


> SotC is actually a very "slow" game in that you're free to explore the environment but there's very little happening in that environment aside from the colossi, and the colossi don't tend to interact with you until you approach them with hostile intent. There's an empty quality to the game that reflects the fact you're alone on a literal and personal level, as the game is about entering a forbidden land to revive a loved one. A lot of the narrative and setting is left up to interpretation rather than explicitly stated. In hindsight, that particular trailer may not have been the best representation of the game, but I can see arguments for Gamma given what you've said.


Agreed.

I thought the game was *too* slow, to be honest. I never did finish it, but that makes sense since I was borrowing it rather than owned it. I got stuck on the flying colossus IIRC. But I think the emptiness bothered me more. The game inspired me to go to sleep on more than one occasion lol

I didn't get the exploration part o f the game. I tend to be a completionist, so I look everywhere. EVERYwhere. Which in that game is a friggin' mistake, lemme tell you. I couldn't find anything to DO. And the visuals were decent but the game was pretty old by the time I played it, so it wasn't impressive. -_-


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## ryukku

any guesses?


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