# Does Fi try and measure worthiness of people?



## ItsAlwaysSunny (Dec 17, 2010)

I have two sisters, both of which are ESFPs, and I have a feeling that our Fi/Fe differences are the main source of our problems. Neither of them are bad people or anything like that, but I've noticed that they will only include themselves in situations that they deem "worthy". They are very selective about things that seem so basic to me, such as politeness or helpfulness. I guess the best way to describe it is that they are very inconsiderate, unless being considerate benefits them or a person they have already deemed worthy.

Sometimes they just make no sense to me. Its almost like you have to prove something to them before they'll treat you right. I'm the exact opposite of that. I assume that everyone deserves nice treatment until they prove that they don't. At that point, I feel very offended. *cue the INFJ doorslam* :wink:

So, is that what Fi does? Maybe its not Fi thats causing it, but its just very bizarre to me.


----------



## Zygomorphic (Nov 19, 2009)

I think you'll have to be more specific about what you mean by "measure". Hypothetically speaking, the N and S functions would seem to me to be performing the measuring (by my own interpretations), while Fi would already have preconceived notions about what constitutes "worthiness" (here, also a vague term).

Or perhaps this:

N/S - What is the length [of what I am measuring]?* 
Fi - What _is_ length [of measurement]?**

*One can measure more than once
**One can redefine a measurement

I used "length" to be intelligible, but anything is applicable there.


----------



## Crystall (Mar 30, 2010)

As I understand it, where Fe attempts to read the feelings of the other person, us Fi users have an easier time understanding our own feelings, and read the feelings of others through "putting ourselves in their shoes" and imagining what feelings would cause us to act in that way. 

I don't recognize this behavior in myself or ENFPs in general, but we are future oriented, driven by our Ne. We strive to keep all of our relationships harmonious, and therefore will rather help out and be liked than refuse and potentially have to deal with a negative confrontation. We also usually want to believe in the best in people, and therefore deem everyone worthy by default, until they give us a reason to change that opinion.

Your sisters' Fi could be causing them to be overly focused on their own wants and needs, and the Se to have trouble foreseeing the consequences of their actions. This would lead them to act primarily on what currently benefits their own interests, in stead of what is socially acceptable or polite. In this case they would demand a specific reason to go the extra mile, thus the need for deeming someone "worthy" of the extra effort... Or maybe they're just immature?


----------



## ItsAlwaysSunny (Dec 17, 2010)

Measure probably wasn't the best word.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is if Fi users size people up to determine who is worth the effort of politenes, curteousy, etc. As an Fe users, everyone is worthy in my book, until they do something that proves otherwise. My sisters, on the other hand, seem to have the opposite approach: you are totally neutral or even disregarded sometimes, until they feel you are worthy of them going out of their way for you.



Does that make any sense?

edit: My sisters don't have any intentions of starting problems with people. Its like they're not rude to people for no reason, but they're just not nice/helpful for no reason either. It kind of baffles me because being nice for no reason isn't a bothersome to me. Actually, it makes me happy.


----------



## ItsAlwaysSunny (Dec 17, 2010)

Crystall said:


> Your sisters' Fi could be causing them to be overly focused on their own wants and needs, and the Se to have trouble foreseeing the consequences of their actions. This would lead them to act primarily on what currently benefits their own interests, in stead of what is socially acceptable or polite. In this case they would demand a specific reason to go the extra mile, thus the need for deeming someone "worthy" of the extra effort... Or maybe they're just immature?



Thank you for this response. Maybe its the Se + Fi combo like you said. It could be immaturity as well. But I wonder if immaturity would play out differently in people who use Fe...


----------



## Crystall (Mar 30, 2010)

ItsAlwaysSunny said:


> Thank you for this response. Maybe its the Se + Fi combo like you said. It could be immaturity as well. But I wonder if immaturity would play out differently in people who use Fe...


That's true. I've been very immature in the past and I still went out of my way to make a good impression on people that I didn't know.


----------



## SyndiCat (Oct 2, 2010)

*Fi - Estimation of Worthiness in People.*

*Fi-Te (Se-Ni):* ISFP, ESFP, INTJ, ENTJ
While Te will have drawn from one rational side of the table (logic),
and Se will have drawn from what is 'realistic',
Ni will try to push and pull between Te and Se to question them with "what if?"

This is why people with Ni can quite often be looked upon as paranoid
when trying to estimate a person's worth, or, "can they be trusted?".

Fi will then value what it considers trustworthy, taking from Se and Te.
Ni is basically just questioning Te and Se, and linking everything together.

*Fi-Te (Ne-Si):* INFP, ENFP, ISTJ, ESTJ
While Te will have drawn from one rational side of the table (logic),
Ne will try to look for as many cues as possible, WHILE
Si tries to compare and match Ne's findings with what Si considers realistic.
"Realistic" in this sense has over time been stereotyped as "past experiences,"
to make it easier for people to understand it.

This is why people with Ne can quite often be looked upon as people
who stack their new found friends with others from their past;
New friends / significant others might go "What the fuck? But I'm not him/her!"
(If you can relate to this then it is Ne-Si / Si-Ne you're relating to, not Fi).

_(Personal opinion from the poster: xNFP's are fucking annoying with this. 
They almost think it's ok to compare new lovers with former lovers)._

Fi will then value what it considers trustworthy, taking from Si and Te.
Si is basically just trying to match Ne's findings with the help of Te.


*Ps. This has nothing to do with Fi. 
This is a preference completely unrelated to COGNITIVE FUNCTIONS (Information Processing) 
as individual Cognitive Functions has NO values of their own.*


Good hunting.
- Michael Angell


----------



## anon (Oct 19, 2009)

Kind of. I mean, there was a time when I was polite to nearly everyone and when I got more and more cynical, I started to be nuetral and see who is more deserving of my understanding/politeness/courtesy. At this point, I was putting my own well-being ahead of people. I suppose I am much more comfortable with the latter in certain situations and circumstances whereas I am primarily in tune with the former. I enjoy reaching out to people and making a difference if I can. I like meeting new people, building bridges, bringing out the best of them and of situations, etc. I am usually driven to test new ideas/perspective in my interactions and create better relationships. So I dunno :/


----------



## earthintruder (Dec 27, 2010)

"Kind of" x2.

The way I understand it: In a way, Fi gets their morals from within themselves, while Fe gets their morals from outside of themselves. Fi will take in an idea and consider if it makes sense to them personally, while Fe is prone to be influenced by more or less what is "status quo", the norm, ergo other peoples' beliefs etc.

This independent moral judgment can lead people to take it upon themselves to deem "worthiness" and things like that.

----------

Though, something feels wrong about the above [the ---'s] post, so I'm not sure if this is actually right or not. All I know is I have a strong Fi and I morally judge like your sisters, and the above post feels right in a way (I think the issue is: Yes this is an Fi thing, but my above explanation of Fi and Fe is not exactly correct).


----------



## ItsAlwaysSunny (Dec 17, 2010)

Thanks for the responses. This is very interesting to me. If I'm being perfectly honest, strong Fi seems to annoy me a lot, but I would assume that strong Fe would be annoying to you guys as well. The funny thing is that I sometimes envy Fi since Fe is exhausting a lot of the time. But in the end, I still prefer Fe. Its weird.


----------



## letsride (Dec 22, 2009)

ItsAlwaysSunny said:


> I guess what I'm trying to ask is if Fi users size people up to determine who is worth the effort of politenes, curteousy, etc.


I personally don't give it this much analysis. If I feel like helping someone, then I do, it's that simple. I make the decision on how I feel about it at the time. I don't try to determine if someone is "worthy", and I don't keep score to determine if anyone has "earned" my help. If I like the person and they ask for my help, I will help. 

Of course, when it comes to politeness and common curteousy, I try to be polite with everyone I interact with. I feel like it's part of being a good human being. Your sisters' lacking of this may have more to do with maturity, like Crystall mentioned.

Of course, part of it might be that Se provides all kinds of distractions for us, so if something more fun or appealing beckons, we may feel like choosing the fun activity over the helpful "chore". I can definately relate to this, but with maturity, we can learn to choose the chore over the fun, and it can be rewarding.

I think Fi plus Se is a hedonistic combination, and if your sisters are still young, it will probably just take time for them to develop an appreciation for helping others.:happy:


----------



## coder25 (Dec 20, 2010)

I don't know if Fi is responsible for this but I tend to attach a "value" to a person. This is subconscious for me.
I don't sit and think whether someone is worthy of my help, it just depends on whether I want to or not. The "whether I want to or not" is dependent on how I rate the person.


----------



## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

I really don't see this as any _direct_ connection to Fi..... Like the OP, I assign people and situations a sort of default respect out of basic human decency, and I only retract that if they do something extremely offensive to me. I don't assign worth based only on what I get out of something or how it affects me. The insinuation that Fi is selfish is rather offensive, honestly. If you really want to understand how a function works, then put aside bias - there is often no one right way to approach something, and when you free yourself from that bias, then you can give the benefit of the doubt, instead of assuming someone has some bad trait because they aren't just like you.

At a stretch, I might connect it to a Se-Fi mindset, albeit a very immature one, but that's only if we assume these ESFPs are indeed acting or not acting a certain way for the reasons you imply.

A few possibilities:
- You perceive something as important & the ESFPs do not see it as important. Some of what FJs deem important come across as arbitrary formalities that suck time, money and energy unnecessarily. ESFPs may prefer to save those resources for things which they see as being real necessities. They may find much of what you see as important as being largely "symbolic" and therefore rather useless & stupid. If there is no tangible, immediate benefit, the ESFP may just see you as imposing stuffy protocol on people. This is really more of a Se/Ni conflict. The Fe/Fi aspect comes into Fi seeing Fe protocol as pointless rules which miss the underlying principle of truly helping people, which should be according to what they need as individuals, not meeting social expectations that make YOU look good. Then it just becomes a fake show that sucks resources & really only benefits _you_ (funny how its the same judgment for different reasons, hm?).

- You see them as selfish for their perceptions that something is unimportant & their decision to not act on it, but they may see you as...wait for it....pushy & assuming. Yep, that's right. They may see themselves as respecting boundaries, and you as sticking your butt into something that's none of your business. You see it as helpful and polite, and they may see it as phony, butt-kissing, obnoxiously assuming someone needs something when they do not, being bossy, manipulating people to get what you want under a guise of being selfless, etc. Fe sees Fi as selfish, and Fi sees Fe as a bossy, assuming cow.

-You see future implications, but the ESFPs see it as irrelevant to the current contexts. So you see them as selfish, maybe even lazy, and they see you as paranoid, overly fussy, and blowing stuff out of proportion in the current context. You have to forgive their limited vision, and they will forgive you for ruining "the moment" & worrying about tomorrow while its still today. They want to bask, remember. They'll put of acting until its absolutely necessary. Really, most Ps are "play before work" types, so don't panic when they don't act as soon as you would. We pull stuff off at the last minute exceedingly well. That's our forte.

-J types sometimes fail to realize that there are many ways to do things. When they insist on everyone doing things according to their time schedule and in their way, they discourage some from participating at all. ESFPs are going to be flexible, spontaneous, and rather practical in how they aid people. There is nothing inferior about this approach. Let them do things in their way, without suggestions or criticisms, and you may see them take more initiative. I'd say the quickest way to get an FP to NOT do something is to tell them to do it & how to do it (unsolicited). It almost offends their Feeling, by implying they are not sensitive to what is needed, and it offends their perceptions, which sees different ways to meet needs & sees a very different time schedule as most efficient (why waste time planning when you can do it all in one swoop?). If they have to act within how you see fit, it feels rigid, & then they resent it. FPs want to act out of genuine feeling, and resentment will kill that feeling, which could lead to them not acting at all. SPs want to act when they think it, and so to plan ahead is tedious. Just because you've started to take initiative does not mean they will not act in their own time, and its no measure of how much they care.


----------



## ItsAlwaysSunny (Dec 17, 2010)

OrangeAppled said:


> I really don't see this as any _direct_ connection to Fi..... Like the OP, I assign people and situations a sort of default respect out of basic human decency, and I only retract that if they do something extremely offensive to me. I don't assign worth based only on what I get out of something or how it affects me. The insinuation that Fi is selfish is rather offensive, honestly. If you really want to understand how a function works, then put aside bias - there is often no one right way to approach something, and when you free yourself from that bias, then you can give the benefit of the doubt,* instead of assuming someone has some bad trait because they aren't just like you.*
> At a stretch, I might connect it to a Se-Fi mindset, albeit a very immature one, but that's only if we assume these ESFPs are indeed acting or not acting a certain way for the reasons you imply.
> 
> A few possibilities:
> ...


Haha. Wow. You've got quite the chip on your shoulder. And I love how you trash me for 'assuming' things about my sister, when you basically insulted me 1000 times in your response and you don't even know me.

Also, I know my sisters. You don't. So how can you assume that I'm misunderstanding where they're coming from? I'm just trying to figure out if what they are doing is related to Fi.


----------



## RyRyMini (Apr 12, 2010)

ItsAlwaysSunny said:


> Haha. Wow. You've got quite the chip on your shoulder. And I love how you trash me for 'assuming' things about my sister, when you basically insulted me 1000 times in your response and you don't even know me.
> 
> Also, I know my sisters. You don't. So how can you assume that I'm misunderstanding where they're coming from? I'm just trying to figure out if what they are doing is related to Fi.


Although I didn't write the post, it's clear to me that you're misunderstanding OrangeAppled's intentions.

She's explaining the the differences between Fi and Fe, not solely the differences between you and your sisters - it's not personal. It can be assumed that you're misunderstanding where they're coming from because of the differences in functions...even though that's not the direct question you asked, it's important to look at the situation from where they're coming from just as they should do the same for you.

A lot of what she said is true to my Fi vs Fe experiences too, which is the reason why I'm backing her up. For a direct example, my roommate (dominant Fe user) was asked to hang out with this one girl that most people recognize as annoying. He was annoyed, but at the same time happy he received the invitation. I kept asking him, "Do you REALLY want to hang out with her?" and "Do you truly believe that you want to, or are you just trying to convince yourself?" He genuinely did, and as a Fi user, even though I sense his genuineness, I find it sometimes hard to believe and grasp.


----------



## ItsAlwaysSunny (Dec 17, 2010)

RyRyMini said:


> Although I didn't write the post, it's clear to me that you're misunderstanding OrangeAppled's intentions.
> 
> She's explaining the the differences between Fi and Fe, not solely the differences between you and your sisters - it's not personal. It can be assumed that you're misunderstanding where they're coming from because of the differences in functions...even though that's not the direct question you asked, it's important to look at the situation from where they're coming from just as they should do the same for you.
> 
> A lot of what she said is true to my Fi vs Fe experiences too, which is the reason why I'm backing her up. For a direct example, my roommate (dominant Fe user) was asked to hang out with this one girl that most people recognize as annoying. He was annoyed, but at the same time happy he received the invitation. I kept asking him, "Do you REALLY want to hang out with her?" and "Do you truly believe that you want to, or are you just trying to convince yourself?" He genuinely did, and as a Fi user, even though I sense his genuineness, I find it sometimes hard to believe and grasp.


I'm not misunderstanding her post. I've seen her posts on typologycentral as well. She's on some kind of warpath against Fe users.

I'm trying to understand Fi and if Fi users want it to be seen in a positive light then a 5 paragraph rant like OrangeApple posted isnt really the smartest move. 

Maybe using the word "selfish" wasnt my smartest move either, but I'm trying to understand what makes two ESFPs be indifferent and standoffish to random people for what I see as no reason. And like I said in one of the earlier posts, maybe this has nothing to do with Fi. I'm trying to learn, but I'm not going to listen to or respect some ridiculous rant.

By the way, RyRyMini, your post was informative without being offensive.


----------



## RyRyMini (Apr 12, 2010)

Ah, okay. I see where you're coming from and I'll let OrangeAppled confirm/deny whatever.

Selfish is a fair word to use, some people consider me selfish and I don't consider it offensive. That's because the values of Fi users are derived from within - personal beliefs and opinions that may not benefit "the group" or community, but ourselves. That's where the indifference and standoffishness comes from, it can look rude to others but we don't always see it as such (maybe the case is different for auxiliary users, I'm not sure). 

So in that sense, it's much more selfish than Fe, which truly cares about everyone's general well being and wouldn't be rude even if it wanted to because it would disrupt the natural balance and flow of things. Even though others in this thread have said it's not Fi, I think that the instances you're describing are.


----------



## susurration (Oct 22, 2009)

ItsAlwaysSunny said:


> I'm not misunderstanding her post. I've seen her posts on typologycentral as well. She's on some kind of warpath against Fe users.
> 
> I'm trying to understand Fi and if Fi users want it to be seen in a positive light then a 5 paragraph rant like OrangeApple posted isnt really the smartest move.
> 
> ...


If you read Jung... he talks about the ways fi may be understood and percieved by fe; some of it resulting in misunderstanding and the perception of Fi. Particularly of it pertaining to self interest and other interest. And vice versa. 

Everything said by OA has been covered by Jung and elsewhere. She is right to bring up perception, because one must understand some of the conflict in judgment by nature of being opposed, in order to pierce through to understanding. The fact that you are puzzled by the behaviour of an fi type may well be because of your diametrically opposed approach. 

If you don't take some consideration into the so called "rant" it's a shame. A lot of things can be learned from not only a clearer view, but from one that shows and discusses a persons perspective. These are all relevant things, especially because the OP tends to be a pretty generic concern raised in fj/fp interaction.


----------



## Pyroscope (Apr 8, 2010)

I think there probably is a measure of immaturity in what they're doing. Mature use of Fi will often take into account 'I feel differently to other people, why shouldn't they feel differently to me?' but there are limits to its understanding depending on the person's personal set of values. Fi may lead us to avoid certain situations that you as an Fe-user might join in on, setting aside your personal assessment of them, IF we've got a sense that there's something wrong with being in this situation. This is a contrast of Fe's responsive nature to other people compared with Fi being affected by the impression of the other person on their values.
For example, an Fi-user might avoid a situation where they have to act too unlike themself because this alien state to be in is so far removed from their natural state of relation to Fi that the whole situation might seem meaningless to them - _it just doesn't affect them_. Conversely an Fe-user might focus on the effect their mode of being might have on others even if it's not entirely natural to them, because they are affected by the externalised result displayed on others, rather than how it impacts them internally.
At least I... _think_ this is the distinction...


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

HHAHAHAHA

My ENFJ sister has said to me before, "You only seem to like a certain kind of person, and I'm glad I'm one of those people, but you might want to work on that."

But in my opinion, she needs to work on giving unsolicited advice on other people's behavior and I find it infuriating sometimes that she tries so hard not to take sides ever, it can make her seem ironically less trustworthy to me.


----------

