# Sticky  T vs. F



## Chiaroscuro

MNiS said:


> When thinkers try to say that IQ isn't a measure of intelligence.


Well, it is a measure of intelligence. A bad one. Let's be honest, there are far better indicators of intelligence.


----------



## MNiS

Chiaroscuro said:


> Well, it is a measure of intelligence. A bad one. Let's be honest, there are far better indicators of intelligence.


No. There really aren't.


----------



## Chiaroscuro

Lol. Even the people who wrote those tests know better. I guess it depends on how you define intelligence- ability to understand and solve real complex issues... Or ability to sit down and take a test meant to test one type of abstract reasoning. I don't care what your IQ is, if you aren't doing anything besides watching netflix all day you are not intelligent. And my IQ is 145


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MNiS

Of course there's more to intelligence than just IQ. What I meant is that there is no better gauge to intelligence than IQ. Maybe some day in the future there will be a better gauge to what intelligence really is and IQ will no longer be necessary as a gauge.


----------



## SilverRain

IQ tests to a great extent measure logic, just one aspect of intelligence. People can come down hard on IQ clubs but imo people who have a gift at logic are no different than people who have other gifts, such as artistic. People typically like to get together with others who are gifted in the same way, and IQ clubs fill that need for people with a logic gift.

I always seemed to myself to be more intelligent than my INTP boyfriend, but when he took an IQ test, his score was 3 points higher than mine. Not much, but it surprised me until I understood that I'd been to a certain extent basing intelligence on a person's perceptiveness. Since then, I've thought there should be a test and a club for perceptive people.


----------



## MNiS

Seagreen said:


> I always seemed to myself to be more intelligent than my INTP boyfriend, but when he took an IQ test, his score was 3 points higher than mine. Not much, but it surprised me until I understood that I'd been to a certain extent basing intelligence on a person's perceptiveness. Since then, I've thought there should be a test and a club for perceptive people.


Marvelous, there totally should be a club for perceptive people! I would totally join a club like that and share my perceptions and learn of other peoples' perceptions with no judgement.


----------



## SilverRain

I would say an awareness and understanding of what's going on around you, which isn't necessarily connected to IQ. The greatest perspective would be understanding both the surface and the actual truth with regard to physical and emotional aspects of life. Understanding emotional game playing of others would be one example, as would understanding that body language sometimes tells more about the person's emotional state than what they're saying. Perceptiveness can be in any arena, including, for example, the physical and what animals are doing. It not an N vs. S or T vs. F issue, since any type can be perceptive or oblivious in any area, depending on their gifts and training.

Edit: I answered a question that was taken away. 

@MNiS, I rate perceptiveness so highly that it's difficult to have friends who are lacking it. Yes, there needs to be a club.


----------



## MNiS

Edit:


Seagreen said:


> @_MNiS_, I rate perceptiveness so highly that it's difficult to have friends who are lacking it. Yes, there needs to be a club.


We should totally start one. 

Old Response:


> Sounds like an EXXJ answer and wrong for me. I'd still join a Perception Club though as long as no one were trying to coerce their opinions on to me or threaten me if I didn't accept their point of view. I hate it when people start becoming judgmental about perceptions. That's how fights and even wars break out. Both figuratively and literally.


----------



## SilverRain

MNiS said:


> Sounds like an EXXJ answer and wrong for me. I'd still join a Perception Club though as long as no one were trying to coerce their opinions on to me or threaten me if I didn't accept their point of view. I hate it when people start becoming judgmental about perceptions and that's how fights and even war break out.


A club where we could argue what perception means.  I get what you're saying and I feel the same.

I'm not Fe dom, in fact I'm not sure who I am.


----------



## MNiS

Seagreen said:


> A club where we could argue what perception means.  I get what you're saying and I feel the same.


Oh dear. That sounds like it's going to be loud and boisterous. Are you sure you'd want to argue about such fundamental thoughts?  Well... it could be fun but also frustrating at the same time. :\



> I'm not Fe dom, in fact I'm not sure who I am.


If I were you, I would just leave it on Unknown Personality. I think that's for the best for a lot of people.


----------



## SilverRain

@MNiS, we're both changing our posts so much that I'm sitting here laughing.  I caught the missed word in the first one and understand why where would have been a confusion, but the other type of club would have been interesting also.



MNiS said:


> If I were you, I would just leave it on Unknown Personality. I think that's for the best for a lot of people.


You're right! I removed "Possibly ENFP" from my signature line. I want so badly to have my box that I get carried away sometimes lol. That could be my type, but might not be. I've had to "use" so many functions that it's been natural to start seeing the world in that manner, so it's possible my inherent type is lost.

@PaladinX, did you used to post as ISTP? If so, can you say what made you change to ENTP?


----------



## MNiS

Seagreen said:


> @_MNiS_, we're both changing our posts so much that I'm sitting here laughing.  I caught the missed word in the first one and understand why where would have been a confusion, but the other type of club would have been interesting also.


Laughter is good if you're having a good time. 



> You're right! I removed "Possibly ENFP" from my signature line. I want so badly to have my box that I get carried away sometimes lol. That could be my type, but might not be. I've had to "use" so many functions that it's been natural to start seeing the world in that manner, so it's possible my inherent type is lost.
> 
> @_PaladinX_, did you used to post as ISTP? If so, can you say what made you change to ENTP?


Oh, that sounds kind of frightening then. Having lost your inherent type. Instead of saying it's lost why not just say that you need to re-examine who you are?


----------



## SilverRain

MNiS said:


> Oh, that sounds kind of frightening then. Having lost your inherent type. Instead of saying it's lost why not just say that you need to re-examine who you are?


Because I've been doing it for 6 years and it's become compulsive, with no definitive answer beyond ExxP, and even the E manifestation is odd since I don't fall neatly into the E/I categories. I watch everything I say to try to track down functions. Maybe I can consider it a mindfulness exercise and become enlightened because of MBTI, then I'll start my own cult and become wealthy and famous.

Is that NeTi?


----------



## MNiS

Seagreen said:


> Because I've been doing it for 6 years and it's become compulsive, with no definitive answer beyond ExxP, and even the E manifestation is odd since I don't fall neatly into the E/I categories. I watch everything I say to try to track down functions. Maybe I can consider it a mindfulness exercise and I'll become enlightened because of MBTI, then I'll start my own cult and become wealthy and famous.
> 
> Is that NeTi?


...

Okay, can you answer these four dichotomous questions for me?

- Prefers to expend energy to conserving their own energy. Yes or No?
- Prefers to create to purchasing creations. Yes or No?
- Sees humans as constant entities to dynamic and ever evolving. Yes or No?
- Would not consider themselves lazy and be offended if told otherwise. Yes or No?

We shall uncover your temperament yet!


----------



## SilverRain

@MNiS, I sent a PM so I don't sidetrack the thread. Thanks!


----------



## MNiS

Seagreen said:


> @_MNiS_, I sent a PM so I don't sidetrack the thread. Thanks!


Marvelous! Wonderful! Simply amazing! Sent you a quick PM back.  Also, I agree that we should stop sidetracking this thread now.


----------



## psychgirl95

MNiS said:


> I find thinkers to be more stupid then feelers but that's just my bias which is why I'm an 'eff' and not a 'tee'.  Some people don't even recognize their own biases though which is just *too bad* for them.


I'll admit that I have a similar bias, but I certainly don't consider all Feelers "stupid". I'm not sure if I can even describe how I consider them... other than just being emotional and subjective when it comes to making decisions, which I find dumb.


----------



## MNiS

JasmineC said:


> I'll admit that I have a similar bias, but I certainly don't consider all Feelers "stupid". I'm not sure if I can even describe how I consider them... other than just being emotional and subjective when it comes to making decisions, which I find dumb.


See what I mean? You don't even admit to your own biases. Such a 'tee' and so bad with 'eff'.


----------



## psychgirl95

MNiS said:


> See what I mean? You don't even admit to your own biases. Such a 'tee' and so bad with 'eff'.


Actually, I just admitted to it. I'm not extreme as you with my bias. If anything, you seem to be the most biased person I've seen on this thread. I wouldn't consider all of anything or anyone stupid because that doesn't even make sense. That's beyond bias and onto judging actually.


----------



## MNiS

JasmineC said:


> Actually, I just admitted to it. I'm not extreme as you with my bias. If anything, you seem to be the most biased person I've seen on this thread. I wouldn't consider all of anything or anyone stupid because that doesn't even make sense. That's beyond bias and onto judging actually.


I'm not very biased in reality. Sure introverted ethics shades my perception differently than introverted logics but for the most part I'm like 99.1% unbiased.  And if you don't explicitly state it then you're not admitting to anything.  Implications are better left to different types.


----------



## PaladinX

Seagreen said:


> @_PaladinX_, did you used to post as ISTP? If so, can you say what made you change to ENTP?


I can't pm you. I guess retired means gone? 

I was typed on here as ISTP and I rolled with it. After going through the MBTI Practitioner Certification training I came out as ENTP.


----------



## owlboy

Sunless said:


> "The difference between the Feeling Function and Emotions can be understood more clearly. The Feeling Function is a cortical capacity to recognize the presence or absence of harmony – between colors, tones, or human beings. By contrast, emotions are a limbic capacity to experience delight, anger, fear, grief."
> [/INDENT][/INDENT]


This might explain why EVERY NFP I've EVER known has been a musician or a singer of some sort. 

But could it not be said that Ti recognizes / appreciates logical harmony? How would you distinguish the two?


----------



## Angina Jolie

owlboy said:


> This might explain why EVERY NFP I've EVER known has been a musician or a singer of some sort.
> 
> But could it not be said that Ti recognizes / appreciates logical harmony? How would you distinguish the two?


I think there's no need to actually say ''Logical harmony'' when logic in it self should be harmonious.

Maybe just F-s - harmony between that what arises feelings - and T's - harmony between that what is objective.


----------



## owlboy

SplitTheAtom said:


> I think there's no need to actually say ''Logical harmony'' when logic in it self should be harmonious.


... There's no need to be that pedantic, especially when the comparison I was making is pretty obvious.


----------



## Angina Jolie

owlboy said:


> ... There's no need to be that pedantic, especially when the comparison I was making is pretty obvious.


Alright alright, no need to stir up your feathers.


----------



## Redhotpengy

Is this is a good comparison?

T - Diamond exterior, soft interior
F - Semi soft exterior & interior (which can be rougher than the exterior sometimes)


----------



## owlboy

Redhotpengy said:


> Is this is a good comparison?
> 
> T - Diamond exterior, soft interior
> F - Semi soft exterior & interior (which can be rougher than the exterior sometimes)


Ti dom/aux are often stereotyped as being ''warmer on the outside'' than they are on the inside.


----------



## Redhotpengy

owlboy said:


> Ti dom/aux are often stereotyped as being ''warmer on the outside'' than they are on the inside.


I find that to be true.


----------



## Arcypher

Ti dom/aux user are often paired with Fe to a certain degree. If their Fe is somewhat developed, that would explain the superficial warmness.

In reality? Internally, at unhealthy stages, Ti can be the most self-destructive function due to internalized systems and logic, causing unspoken criticism, both to people and oneself.


----------



## Realeros

Can't the difference between T and F be simplified to the difference between Logic and Ethics? The simplification is used by Socionics, and seems to bring clarity to the two.


----------



## HappyCampr1

Thanks for this


----------



## Endologic

T wins if it's Ti,

F wins if it's Fe.


----------



## Stevester

Feelers have a nasty habit of twisting facts around so that they'll be happy or at least ''okay'' with them. Which yes, in many cases can come off as irrational or down right stupid. i.e. _''No way my husband would ever cheat on me. We spent 50k on our wedding ceremony, he would never throw this away for 2 minutes of sleazy sex with a stranger....''_ and then comes the paramount of F types: _''I know it in my heart....''_ no logical data necessary, because it threatens their happiness and stuff. 

Meanwhile Thinkers are utterly convinced they are right about everything. I challenge you to find a T type who doesn't think they're a know-it-all in casual arguments and gracefully accepts being corrected on a regular basis. When T types do get challenged or realize they are wrong, they typically become argumentative and arrogant, instead of letting their ego take a tiny hit, learning from it and growing as a part of it. More mature ones do, but then more mature feelers will face ugly truths and deal with them.

But in both cases these are examples of stupidity, so no, I never once equated T and F to intelligence.


----------



## Squirt

I am sure I am a tert Fi user, but Te is aux. From what I can tell, F users give more importance to the emotional effects of a situation rather than the reality of a situation; the effects are the reality, where T searches for the reality apart from those effects. 

For example, a toddler runs by and pushes another toddler over accidently. The F toddler that was pushed will not be consoled if they are told it was an accident - the hurt feelings and surprise from the push are felt all the same, and that is what matters. The toddler would be consoled by having those feelings validated, and once this is done, they can accept the intent was not malicious and view the wider context. The problem of the offender is based directly on their effect, with the cause a secondary concern (same could go for witnessing another toddler pushed). The T toddler first requires knowing why the push occurred outside of their personal experience. The problem of the offender would be directed at how the offense occurred instead of the effects, such as a lack of carefulness. The effect is informed by the cause. This is a rudimentary example, just to give a sense of how I am interpreting decision making based on F vs. T.

I don't think one is better than the other in this example. Should the pushed F toddler be told not to cry because it was an accident? Does the T toddler diminish themselves by evaluating their feelings based on the cause of the situation?

With characteristic Fi self referencing, I tried to think of a time where I believed my feelings about a situation were more important than what actually happened - and, at least if this trail of thought goes anywhere, I found I can come at the world with that perspective when attempts to understand the situation any other way fail.

I have experiences which moved me so much, that any context given that would contradict and therefore render that movement invalid is unacceptable, and so outright rejected. It is not because the I don't believe the potential for an alternative view isn't there, but that I don't assign it any importance.

Maybe this is more of an Fi phenomenon than Fe.

Does this make any sense? I don't like my use of the words "cause" or "effect" but I cannot find better terms at the moment.


----------



## Super Luigi

let me see if I understand this correctly

Fi > Te . . . very subjective, explains why they personally feel how they do

Te > Fi . . . less subjective, says what they did and they don't really feel much about it


----------



## zoboomafoo

I think the huge gaping hole in a lot of people's understanding of personality theory is that neither T nor F is a complete perspective. Nor is anyone person capable of having a complete perspective, ever. Comparing T and F for the purpose of understanding them better is good. However, if you inherently believe one to be better than the other, you are confused. Every single cognitive function can be expressed in negative, damaging ways. It's not a T or an F thing to be a toxic, negative presence in people's lives so using negative examples from your experience to define the functionality is close minded and inaccurate.

Also, 'feelers' aren't dictated by emotion. All types can be prone to emotional outbursts when they feel the things they value are being ignored or pushed to the side, or if they're just plain unhealthy. Feelers just place more importance on emotional perspectives.

If T is logical, F is subjective. T is black/white and contrast, F is shades of grey and comparison. F and T thinking produce two very unique perspectives that are equally as valuable to the million different facets of society that keep it moving forward.


----------



## eldor

this is too long but it seems interesting, maybe i'll read it later


----------



## Cthulhu69

Thinkers say that T is or true, F is for false. 
Feelers say that F is for friendly, T is for tight.


----------



## sunnyleo

.


----------



## Put

This is neat, I love how it includes a real example in it. it helps my understanding far more than a lot of abstract function descriptions i see scattered all over the place lol


----------

