# Unempathetic INFJ?



## sj88 (Nov 14, 2014)

I test as an INFJ 80% of the time (also have tested as RLOAI and Ell), but have also tested as an INTJ and ISTJ. I tested as Enneagram 1 and found that to be VERY much like me, but found out that it had an occult tie, and that turned me off. I prefer personality science to be just that -- a science.

My main problem with my INFJ results is the empathy piece -- which I understand to be an important part of the INFJ/Ell/RLOAI personality type.

I am NOT empathetic! I don't "absorb" the feelings of others, and I am mainly affected by others' emotions when they are, in my opinion, "over the top", and they irritate me! I like emotions that are analyzed, well-realized, and reasonable. I have strong feelings, at times, but I always "check them over" to make sure they make sense. When they don't make sense, I can admit that to others, and about 75% of the time I can talk myself out of illogical emotions. I don't care about humanity as a whole or people in general, and mostly find the average person to be shallow, annoying, and uninteresting. I am not attracted to humanitarian causes, and may have a momentary oh-that's-to-bad "twinge" about sad global situations or others' tragedies, but don't find myself caring for long or feeling deeply affected, and about some things I think people should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps and figure out their lives. I do really, genuinely love the people I care about, but that is a VERY small number of people. I would say I "love" 5 people (3 of whom are related to me by blood and one of whom is my husband), and that I only really like a very small number of people. To be cared for by me, people have to pass a sort of "test" that they line up with my personality, my morals, and my preferences. But then I REALLY care for those people, and would do anything for them (though I still do not absorb their emotions!), but tend to be a "tough love" sort, and care for them the way *I* see fit, even if it is not the way they like to be cared for ("Sarah knows best"). I have VERY strong political/social opinions that are off-beat/revolutionary/not mainstream, but I don't consider myself an activist and don't think it is my job or within my power even to change the world to fit my ideals; I would rather just be self-righteous and proclaim the world fallen and not living up to my standards (this is not easy to say, but true). I can sometimes be prejudiced.

My values are honesty/truth/integrity/authenticity (I tend to say just what I am thinking even if it is awkward or not "PC"), being a good wife to my husband, making sense and making smart and logical choices, living within my strong and fairly rigid moral framework (I am religious), being "different" (what I consider better) than the "normal" person, living an analytical, introspective and self-examined life, and learning about my interests which are passionate (this personality situation being one of them!) but sometimes burn themselves out. 

Feel free to ask me ANY questions you might need to to help me nail this down -- I am an open book (there's that honesty/authenticity).

Thanks so much for helping me with my identity crisis!


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## westlose (Oct 9, 2014)

How do you behave in a group ? (Give as much details as possible)

Are you assertive ? Or do you have trouble with this.

Are you too blunt/critical, or too forgiving/accepting.

There is a huge difference between an INFJ and an INTJ.
INTJ are really cold and aloof, they do not like to express their feelings, and they don't mind hurting other people feelings.
INFJ are sweet as f**k, expressive and warm. They can be reserved and quiet, but they won't make you feel judged/criticised.


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## sj88 (Nov 14, 2014)

In a group, I am generally quiet because I am not confident about my social skills. I see myself as awkward. I like to sit back and watch, and enjoy others having fun or having a conversation by listening and watching them enjoy themselves, and piping up sometimes when I feel I have something to share. I do find awkward silence...awkward, so I will try and talk if people are silent just to break the quiet. Sometimes I "try" to be outgoing and gregarious, and usually come across as endearing but weird. (I tend to try to talk about subjects that are too "deep" for the situation, or tell stories that others see as too personal.) I hate small talk. I will often, if in a group with my husband who is an ENFJ to the max, set him up for a story or joke he loves sharing. I am a good "side kick". I find most social interaction taxing (outside of my husband and mother with whom I am very close) and I am generally anxious, even with close friends, about being interesting enough, or having enough to say. 

Others think I am sweeter than I think I am! I think I am coldly logical, but others think I am nice -- although very quiet. I tend to keep my critical comments of others to myself, or share them with my close family. Once I care about people (which takes a while and a development of my affection for them) I try to put myself in their shoes and see where they are coming from a bit more. When I am critical of the people I love, I TRY to be kind about telling them my assessments or keep them to myself, but I often think I need to tell them my critiques to help them be a better person/be more effective/make the right choices/etc. 

I guess I DO mind hurting other people's feelings in practice, but I think I don't care in theory. I am critical of others but would never "insult" them, and mostly keep my judgmental opinions to myself. I do point out gramatical, factual or logical errors (though I am trying to curb this when it is not very glaring or is an "understandable" error) which can make them see me as critical even though I am trying to be helpful and help them make more sense.

When I express my feelings, I express them by explaining them (very well, and with creative analogies and descriptions that other people can understand), and other people can usually see where I am coming from. When I am upset I can talk through my feelings pretty well (though I might cry out of frustration), and I get annoyed when others can't talk reasonably about their feelings, even if their feelings are strong or unreasonable. 

One thing that might be considered empathetic, is I will stand up for a person getting treated badly. I get in altercations in supermarkets or restaurants when I see people being rude to the waiters/cashiers/etc. and will stand up for the service workers. 

If INFJ's are sooo aloof, is it possible I could be an ISTJ? Or something else completely? 

Hope that was helpful!


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## Kairne (Sep 1, 2014)

(I test as INTJ)

I hate to break it to you, but psychology is probably the least "scientific" of the sciences, and MBTI is no exception. That's the problem with psychology; it's based around abstract ideas (behavior / emotions / thought patterns), while math, biology, or neuroscience are easily observed and objectified (try objectifying emotions, senses, and the like). Pretty much everyone will use every function at some point... I use all of them on a daily bases. Trying to determine which you use the most can be challenging to do objectively, especially since the functions don't have an objective definition (there's so many different definitions for them).

I wouldn't discount something just because it's based on "the occult". Don't get me wrong, I'm a heavy skeptic, but I find that a lot of that "occult" stuff is just a different way of saying the same thing. For example, some types of Wicca have spells that involve rituals, but most Wiccans acknowledge that it's just a form of self-hypnosis (which works). It works much like the placebo effect. MBTI also has unprovable ideas, such as the claim that there are four major aspects of a person's personality, and each aspect can be introverted or extroverted.

Anyway, I see Te as extroverting your thinking process. You express logical judgements to other people and avoid talking about feelings. Fe/Ti would internalize their logic (however strong it might be), but extrovert their emotions; they would talk about their feelings, but avoid talking about their internal logical ideas.

I also hate it when people act like douchebags to waiters / servers. Just because you're buying something so they can make minimum wage doesn't mean you get to treat them like animals. Who cares if their job isn't prestigious? If all the waiters moved on and became lawyers and doctors, who would serve you food? People seem to forget that little problem; someone has to do the job. If all the high school drop outs got their diplomas, the education requirements for jobs would simply increase to handle the ne influx of employees. Someone has to work those jobs that nobody wants. Without the bottom of the mountain, you have no peak.


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## westlose (Oct 9, 2014)

sj88 said:


> In a group, I am generally quiet because I am not confident about my social skills. I see myself as awkward. I like to sit back and watch, and enjoy others having fun or having a conversation by listening and watching them enjoy themselves, and piping up sometimes when I feel I have something to share. I do find awkward silence...awkward, so I will try and talk if people are silent just to break the quiet. Sometimes I "try" to be outgoing and gregarious, and usually come across as endearing but weird. (I tend to try to talk about subjects that are too "deep" for the situation, or tell stories that others see as too personal.) I hate small talk. I will often, if in a group with my husband who is an ENFJ to the max, set him up for a story or joke he loves sharing. I am a good "side kick". I find most social interaction taxing (outside of my husband and mother with whom I am very close) and I am generally anxious, even with close friends, about being interesting enough, or having enough to say.
> 
> Others think I am sweeter than I think I am! I think I am coldly logical, but others think I am nice -- although very quiet. I tend to keep my critical comments of others to myself, or share them with my close family. Once I care about people (which takes a while and a development of my affection for them) I try to put myself in their shoes and see where they are coming from a bit more. When I am critical of the people I love, I TRY to be kind about telling them my assessments or keep them to myself, but I often think I need to tell them my critiques to help them be a better person/be more effective/make the right choices/etc.
> 
> ...


In my opinion, you are INTJ. Look at auxilary Te and auxilary Fe and tell me what you think. If you still doubt about being ISTJ, look at Introverted Sensing as a primary function.
A last question : Do you enjoy being a leader ? Or do you prefer working alone?

If you still have doubts, say it. I will try to help you once again.


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## I_destroyedtheuniverse (Jul 24, 2014)

westlose said:


> and they don't mind hurting other people feelings.


Please explain this. Are you saying INTJs are inconsiderate or are you saying if the truth really needs to be told, then they may hurt people's feelings in doing so? 

Also, who doesn't find over the top reactions annoying? They're annoying because they're over the top and usually unreasonable. (to OP)


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## sj88 (Nov 14, 2014)

*I_destroyed* -- Some people I know really thrive on drama, and enjoy over-the-top displays of emotion, their own or other people's. :/ I never post on forums, so excuse me if I say some obvious things. It took a lot of courage for me to even get on here, because I don't like to put myself out there like this!

*Karine* -- Thanks for the insight! Maybe that is why I am having such a hard time with this. It is NOT a hard and fast science, and I can't get the definite answer I want. I like labels and knowing where I fit in a system, so not being able to clearly label myself drives me crazy! I guess working on accepting the fact that it's just not going to work that way might help chill me out about this (I honestly haven't been able to quit analyzing and over-thinking this since I started on this little adventure a few days ago).

Karine and Wetlose -- Thank you both for the info on the functions. I will look at the links, Wetlose, when I get home -- my work's webfilter blocks them, haha.

*Wetlose* -- So your diagnosis is INTJ and perhaps ISTJ? I read this just now (preludecharacteranalysis/types/istj/vs/intj) [it wouldn't let me enter the web address, so there is a dot-com in there after analysis) and ISTJ seemed to make way more sense to me than INTJ. Does that website seem pretty good at summing up the characteristics? INTJs sound much more creative and "novel" than me. I don't usually come up with brand new ideas, but latch on to and become passionate about ideas I find and agree with. I am not very much into creating new systems, but understanding already established ones. 

I do definitely prefer to work alone. I only take the role of leader if something has to be done and I feel like I am the only one who is going to step forward; if everyone else seems incompetent. I don't do it because I enjoy leading, but because I think I am good at getting things done in a quality manner, and will take control if others are willing (like if I am in a group of distracted, uninterested or passive people). I will NOT fight for control with others, but withdrawn and roll my eyes and figure "whatever!". But when at ALL possible, I strive to work alone, as I feel comfortable and competent this way. 

Thanks to everybody for all of your help. I am sorry to "bother" y'all with my identity crisis here, but you are really helping me out!


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## westlose (Oct 9, 2014)

I_destroyedtheuniverse said:


> Please explain this. Are you saying INTJs are inconsiderate or are you saying* if the truth really needs to be told, then they may hurt people's feelings in doing so?*


That's what I meant. Sorry for being a bit exaggerating. INTJs priority is telling *the truth*, and it doesn't matter if it hurts feeling. Well, they are smoother with their friends and close one of course, but they won't hesitate with a stranger / a guy they don't really like. INFJs just can't hurt feelings, they are too empathic. They will be more delicate when telling the truth. Because it hurts them when they hurt other people feelings.

@sj88
Well, according to what you said, you seem to have Te. Of course, IxTJs are not total robots, they do have feelings, and they are not heartless, or bad guys who wants to insult and criticise everyone.
This post is really good if you want to tell apart T/F and S/N.

But, it's not really hard to tell apart S and N. Sensors prefer details and concrete things, iNtuitive prefer ideas and concepts. iNtuituve have trouble applying their ideas, and Sensors have trouble finding ideas.

Ni is hard to explain, but for me it's the ability to construct abstract patterns. Ni is convergent, it's synthetising a unique *vision*. Ni users are always planning and anticipating, they are always thinking about the future, and what they should do.

I can't really explain you Si, it's like one of my worst functions, and I don't understand it a lot (I prefer Socionics pov).

ISTJs are more aware of their body i guess, and INTJs are more aware of the "hidden truth" (like conspiracy and stuffs ...)


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## I_destroyedtheuniverse (Jul 24, 2014)

westlose said:


> That's what I meant. Sorry for being a bit exaggerating. INTJs priority is telling *the truth*, and it doesn't matter if it hurts feeling. Well, they are smoother with their friends and close one of course, but they won't hesitate with a stranger / a guy they don't really like. INFJs just can't hurt feelings, they are too empathic. They will be more delicate when telling the truth. Because it hurts them when they hurt other people feelings.


Well, nobody likes to hurt feelings. I dislike hurting the feelings of those I care about dearly, and I do not like seeing strangers upset. I do, however, believe in honesty and justice. Lies irritate me. Sometimes, hurting feelings is inevitable but I don't think many INTJs would just not care if it was a stranger. As for people they dislike, I don't know- I don't truly dislike anyone.


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## tingeling (Nov 14, 2014)

Kairne said:


> MBTI also has unprovable ideas, such as the claim that there are four major aspects of a person's personality, and each aspect can be introverted or extroverted.


I agree fully. It seems that most peoples doesn't understand that, trying to fit backward into a puzzle.



westlose said:


> There is a huge difference between an INFJ and an INTJ.


Not really. Social conditioning made me an INTJ, but I am really a INFJ. They're very closely related, both very iNutive and sharp.
my friend (INTJ) forced me to widen up my brain, be more logical, but I had already these skills inside me, and I am trying to find
my limitations. Of course i have preference to be gentle and smooth, but something I have to be harsh. And I suffer forever after that...

It's stereotypes that peoples can not be leaders. 
Leadership isn't a goal, but a tool, if nobody can do that, I'll do it.

Most males are usually expected to be leaders, which can be little more difficult for IN-P. 
I think that one at work was IS(N?)-P, he was my leader, just because he was there first. We tried to solve a packaging problem and I came up with solution, but he had to look around, his mind had to run away inside his head, it wasn't healty, but it was a process that he had to experience. 
But he really enjoyed that time we had, it improved his self confidence that he can solve problems and lead somebody else.
That's something most leaders forgets, giving other peoples time and space to develop their own skills at their terms.

Barking out orders are easy, but whispering orders to make other into "leaders" makes me more happy and effective.



> Sensors prefer details and concrete things, iNtuitive prefer ideas and concepts. iNtuituve have trouble applying their ideas, and Sensors have trouble finding ideas.


I disagree. iNution can't be used as a excuse to not implement ideas. Why can't Sensors be creative?
I have no issue to implement ideas to the real world. I enjoy to be ISFP when I am in the right mood.
I can even work hard when I am tired and got a mental breakdown, my brain can be putted away.
(of course very unhealty, i think that NJ makes one more resililent, something one have to do to survive/get out) 

I am planning to buy a lathe, to create the things I need, but I must have a clear goal, by task, not by the work.
I have no experience of lathe-work, so I have to read books, learn and experience to gain competance. So easy is that.

My work will be less elobrate (rational and effective) and I see that my iNution fucks up, an ISxP woulded jumped right away and working hard and long, always gaining more experience than me, maybe more elobrate and detailed than ever. (I adore them for that!)

Most people prefers to be lazy, and I am fine with that, but ideas/work are worthless if they can't be realized in real life.
That's something the MTBI doesn't show.


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## westlose (Oct 9, 2014)

> Well, nobody likes to hurt feelings.


I never said that INTJs are sadistic. They are just blunt and direct., when they are dealing with telling the truth. 



> Why can't Sensors be creative?


Again, I never said Sensors can't be creative ! They just have a different problem, when trying to create something.
For exemple, INFJ have Ni>Se, and ESTP have Se>Ni.
So INFJ will sometimes lack of willpower and energy, but they totally know what to do.
ESTPs will have the drive and energy, but they will lack of focus.

Both can be artistic or creative of course ! They just are in two different ways.


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## tingeling (Nov 14, 2014)

westlose said:


> Again, I never said Sensors can't be creative ! They just have a different problem, when trying to create something.
> For exemple, INFJ have Ni>Se, and ESTP have Se>Ni.
> So INFJ will sometimes lack of willpower and energy, but they totally know what to do.
> ESTPs will have the drive and energy, but they will lack of focus.
> ...


Intersting. I am creative, but I am not sure if I have fantasy.
I feel that Sensory are excellent to interpolate between two psychical object (or picture), making something new and awesome out of it...
Not sure if it's correct, thought!

I totally agree about lack of willpower, but I use my Judgement side to get things done: "shut up and just do it!" 

Last week I got an idea to fix something, and today, outside my house I discovered that I saw the same thing on a bike (subconsicous S). I already knew that my idea wasn't orginal, but I thought that I saw it on a picture. 
My brain had a very clear picture of the thing on the same picture, but I didn't know where it came from, lol!
It can feel like magic, but that's how my brain works. In a way a Sensory person can work quicker than me, seeing something he/she wants, make one right away, but I have to grumble first and dig deep down inside my mind to make the same work.

I think that the problem is bigger - Schools and adults usually discourages creative peoples, one have to cling very hard on these
skills, and the sad thing it's the most primary skills amoung humans, the one who made us survive in a harsh enviroment.

Who doesn't feel less depressed by using their own creative mind?!


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