# The limitations of enneagram defense mechanisms?



## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

hal0hal0 said:


> Oops, I was kinda in a hurry when pasting that. Now that I think about it, I should've included it because this thread is dealing with a lot of how to differentiate surface vs. core mechanisms (i.e., what is necessary vs. what is incidental to type?).


Oh, that's cool, great topics start in the most random places and it's good that it was moved here and chat properly about these things. :happy: And yez, good topic, it's helpful to talk about something from a variety of angles, ya never know where it could lead or what other hidden knowledge there is...



> The disintegration lines and "levels" are something I've gone back and forth on in terms of their importance—specifically, how much they represent actual patterns of growth throughout one's life. To me, this implies that fully integrating is a permanent state, which I don't see at all (I'm not sure I'd even _like that, either). The RH leveling system feels too much like some video game where once I've "leveled up" I've made it completely to a better state. I suppose my issue is... the idea that once we reach perfection, we are somehow made incorruptible or pure or perfect. I think it works on a much more cyclic (albeit frustrating) level—life has its ups and downs, so to speak.... se la vie. _


Yes, this is a good point to note and in how we view health levels in enneagram context. Not all is static, there is movement and the ebb and flow of the tide, we are all in a constant state of flux. Even doing nothing is still doing something such as passing time. I get that, like once you have reached on level of health, pass - go and onto the next which kinda makes sense in an ideal world. What you just described actually illustrates my exact thoughts on this, it's not even funny! Hahaha! And ill get round to an image you posted that illustrates the back and forth nature of moving between related types, again, you hit the nail on the head! But the theory has to adapt or at least be compatible with the nature of life and it's inherent flux. The health levels are described quite arbitrarily and was a thought that the whole nature of health levels are much different than what many have previously understood.



> I think the problem with describing them as integration/disintegration arrows is that it implies we should be moving in a particular direction. I've stopped seeing disintegration or integration lines as good or bad, but rather as "rebalancing" mechanisms (an idea I've been working with but I admit I've only applied it to a few types). For instance, the 7's line to 1 almost acts as an auto-correction that essentially restores a sense of balance when the 7's narcissistic bubble blows up to gargantuan extremes (i.e., "eat some humble pie!"). I've wondered, then, if disintegration lines are less like "destinations" and more like release valves or circuit breakers that [can] act as restorative forces if the individual so chooses. They are counterweights, I think, not instructions or "destinies."


Yes and think this is a healthy way of viewing our own attitude to health. Do you think it's possible we adopt traits in positive senses of say our disintegration points, like we could also borrow that types attitudes to balance out our core type's neurosis because of the seemingly complimentary similarity although also a double edged sword, there are negative attitudes with neighbour types that are also resorted to e.g 6 morphing to 3 or 9 both positively and negatively. Have sort of given up with the whole integration points can't also be disintegration points, there's enough clues to hint other wise. And wonderfully put, I really like the way you described the act of moving to a neighbour type in terms of accessing a relief valve, like something that momentarily falls into the conclusion of their core types neurosis or could be described another way of yes, a restorative source which is where the benefits on moving to conclusive type can be experienced.










This is it. Describes that movement inbetween spot on. Awesomeness Halo. But yes, this is a different way of viewing movement between types, more of a fluid process in comparison to the one up level scenario.



> So, perhaps a 2's disintegration line to 8 can actually have a silver lining, because the 2's natural state is to repress its needs and be self-forgetting in the sense that it fixates on its influence and power through others (i.e., the 2 is other-focused). On the surface, 2s and 8s are very different in terms of general strategies, but maybe that's just what the 2 needs. I'm reminded of this quote by RD Laing:


Yes. This kind of essence(for lack of a better word) to describe it fits well with the connection between say types, 2 and 8. How we should perhaps view integration/disintegration points as more _access points_. I s'pose it's not that much different in meaning but it does sort of change the context slightly.



> "Madness need not be all breakdown. It may also be break-through. It is potential liberation and renewal as well as enslavement and existential death."


Love this quote. And tbh, don't think it's always such a bad thing, a renewal or an expansion of the mind. Just that we have learnt to fear losing ourselves down the rabbit hole, you never know what you might find. As long as we learn from it, gain wisdom. It's not like even losing your mind in such a literal sense but a letting go of unnecessary baggage even if it means accepting you may have mental baggage, this might something related to denial, a thought component existing to create more pain to the individual, when we accept instead of always fight, things start to happen even if they may not be overly obvious to the individual.



> I think when people adopt typology, there's a tendency to become a slave to their type or filter/explain everything through type. I know I've done this (even with my MISTYPES, LOL). I'd start acting like an INFJ or whatever, maybe have a God-complex or two. That's why I dislike the idea of saying: "A 1 could _*never do this." for instance, because... I believe in free will? Sure, a type compulsion may produce a kneejerk reaction that builds those stereotypes, it's just that they aren't an absolute. It's like type is our cruise control, but we can choose to actually take the steering wheel for ourselves. I actually think most of those barriers are in our mind (i.e., we are our own worst enemy).*_


Yeah, I wouldn't even judge someone too harshly such as yourself for this, to this thought process in a sense, in fact, to go through it, you learn from it, that type isn't an explanation for everything about ourselves, there is the kind of shunning on the MBTI forums, like if you have your own interest separate from the other types who type the same, you must be mistyped and so there will be some people who mould themselves when really, they may well still be that type and it's not their perception that is at fault but the tunnel vision of others being projected onto them and they reinforce it by moulding themselves to the stereotypical traits. I know I have felt largely out of place at times on the INFP forum, it seems like they get portrayed as cute, library dwellers who are also into goth music, even though the stereotypes conflict with each other :laughing: Craziness! This is a whole other topic that can probably be spoken about again from a different take. *possible idea* Although this kind of topic has been spoken about at length, do you even get the impression, it's just being rehashed again and again without getting closer to the root and even then, the complexity of the forum environment, new-comers and oldtimers of MBTI and the whole heap on type information and how difficult it is to reconcile these things. The strategy for dealing with that stuff on this subforum in particular has really taken good shape, things slip still but are quickly rectified because when slips like that happen, it kinda sets the development of knowledge here a notch back, shit, I sounds like a data puritan, but to put it another way, at least when we are over that old hurdle, we are closer to new insights. 



> *Do we always grow wiser?*


Ahh, this quote is like one of those hand puzzles where you have to flip it right or those 8'balls where the answer could lie in infinite ways...That's what is so enigmatic about these kinds of quotes, that there is not quite a straight, linear answer. Perhaps the knowledge is in the question itself...


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## hal0hal0 (Sep 1, 2012)

mushr00m said:


> Do you think it's possible we adopt traits in positive senses of say our disintegration points, like we could also borrow that types attitudes to balance out our core type's neurosis because of the *seemingly complimentary similarity although also a double edged sword*, there are negative attitudes with neighbour types that are also resorted to e.g 6 morphing to 3 or 9 both positively and negatively. Have sort of given up with the whole integration points can't also be disintegration points, there's enough clues to hint other wise.


 I've started seeing disintegration sort of like a forest fire or the phoenix's rebirth. Yes, they cause destruction, pain, and even death, yet they also provide the opportunity for new beginnings, if we so choose to learn from those bad experiences and let go of pride or whatever else we might get hung up on. I can either sweep my mistakes under the rug because I'm too ashamed to admit I'm wrong or I can swallow my pride and learn from them (and newsflash, it prolly ain't gonna kill me). It is, oddly, those most miserable of years that are often the most formative, for me, and I often look on them fondly, in hindsight.

I often catch myself frustrated and discontent with my present circumstances—either impatiently waiting for the future of better tomorrows to arrive or pining with nostalgia for days gone past. Or worrying about the future and the uncertainties it brings or regretting the past and opportunities missed. I've often felt like I'm in life's waiting room; as if there is some barrier or disconnect between me and the rest of the world, barring me from actually living. Then I wonder: Why am I doing this? A lot of the time, I just need to mentally slap myself in the face and think about how silly I'm being. Cherish and focus on the things before me within my grasp, rather than covet the things that are high in the sky.

A while back, I had as my signature quotes from The Satanic Verses and Ulysses (some of my favorites; yes, I am one of those crazy people that saves their signatures for future reference ;] ):

“Exile is a dream of a glorious return. Exile is a vision of revolution: Elba, not St Helena. It is an endless paradox: looking forward by always looking back. The exile is a ball hurled high into the air. ”
~Salman Rushdie, _The Satanic Verses_“Hold to the now, the here, through which all future plunges to the past.”
~James Joyce, _Ulysses_​
Ugh, Joyce could do disgustingly brilliant things with words. In one flipping sentence... the whole river of time flowing not just around you, but _*through *_you as well. It's like being a conduit for the electricity of life itself. Lovely lovely lovey.



mushr00m said:


> Yes. This kind of essence(for lack of a better word) to describe it fits well with the connection between say types, 2 and 8. How we should perhaps view integration/disintegration points as more _access points_. I s'pose it's not that much different in meaning but it does sort of change the context slightly.


Access points. I like it . I like the way enneathusiast put it:

_It's realizing that you are all nine types and then beginning to actualize that in your life. I think the mistake most people make is in trying to negate their type without providing any alternatives. You've developed worthwhile skills by living life from your type. Don't try to get rid of them. Just realize the tendency to overuse them even when they're not appropriate. Learn more appropriate skills by realizing the value of the other types that have been denied in yourself (often due to an over-identification with your type fixation)._

Life is too complicated for one-size-fits-all solutions, which is what the enneagram fixations delude us into thinking (i.e., for a 9: "If I can find a way to just not deal with the unpleasantness, then all will be good."). There is not One answer, One truth, or One path, however. There are many, many paths. A "time for everything" so to speak:





 
A bit of a personal rant, but I think postmodernism gets turned into this derogatory buzzword to describe things that have no meaning or cohesiveness, when that's an oversimplified view. I tend to adhere to Lyotard's original definition which is the rejection of the metanarrative (i.e., the One Grand truth). Postmodernism was really about moving away from single, one-size-fits-all answers and embracing radical pluralism (i.e., the "voice of many"). The reason postmodernism has so many different definitions is because that's kind of the point. This does run into the problem where there are too many people talking, however (i.e., everybody on the internet has an opinion).

I've actually pondered the correlation to the old Christian saying "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." The Father is typically seen as the One God. The Son is Jesus, which is seen as a merging of the pairs of opposites—BOTH man and God, so there is dualism there. The Son is what Joseph Campbell refers to as the "pairs of opposites"... this is yin-yang, Adam and Eve, good and evil, light and dark. And finally, the Holy Ghost represents a transcendence of either of those two. I believe some interpretations of the Holy Spirit are that it represents religious pluralism (i.e., tolerance towards all religions and beliefs). 

The problem with pluralism is that it still needs limits. Tolerance needs limits and a line must be drawn somewhere or else it's just nihilism.



mushr00m said:


> I know I have felt largely out of place at times on the INFP forum, it seems like they get portrayed as cute, library dwellers who are also into goth music, even though the stereotypes conflict with each other
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hm, that's a good question, whether we are simply running in place or actually getting somewhere. I think certainly individuals themselves are making progress and small groups are as well, so I have to take it on faith that the whole of humanity is moving (albeit very slowly) in that direction as well. 

Oh, I think the rehashing is inevitable and probably a generational thing. Sorta like how people always seem to talk about the "good ol' days." It seems to me that all days are the good ol' days to someone (and for others, they were terrible days). This has been going on since at least Charles Dickens: _It was the best of times, it was the worst of times_. Sort of like that Turn! Turn! Turn! song... the Byrds are kinda talking about what the enneagram points towards—there is no single answer to life and yeah, perhaps everything does have its own season (I haven't heard that song in AGES; I'm amused it came to mind).

You often see this when musicians change their style and fans freak out like they've betrayed their roots or something (i.e., Dylan going electric). I'm of the mind that it is natural to want to explore the unexplored, so I generally don't care if artists look into different genres, styles or whatever. If I like it, I like it, if I don't, then I don't. I actually don't devote myself to specific genres, but just take each album/song on its own terms. For me, it's more about the individual artist's expression, passion and energy; what they are saying and how it reflects upon me. I see a music album more as a space or a room in which to dwell. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm reminded of something the famed media theorist Marshall McLuhan once said:

"Nostalgia shapes the things to come."

I think McLuhan had a lot of fascinating ideas and I'm always interested by how media and the internet shape society and human consciousness (for instance, the internet is seen as an extension of our nervous system). Some of his ideas I still have difficulty wrapping my head around, but I do agree that technology is often the catalyst of change in society (i.e., the assembly line, the H-bomb, the printed word, the wheel, the internet, phones, etc.).
That's another 10 cans of worms, however intriguing I may find these subjects.


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## sleepyhead (Nov 14, 2011)

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> They speak of an unconscious denial of fear and vulnerability much like an 8. Here's the caveat.It's the same mechanism of 8 serving a different purpose, because the types are fundamentally different despite crucial similarities such as belonging in the reactive triad as well as having an oppositional relationship with the environment.
> ...
> So, while a CP 6 may see the world as unjust and hard much like the 8, their core cognitive distortion has to do with compulsively keying in to uncertainty ("not knowing") as a fixation (in other words self-doubt, with the passion being fear itself), in a world perceived as unpredictable and "unsupportive" (armed against life, "guns blazing" as Naranjo describes it). The hardening and arming oneself against life is exactly like 8, with the primary difference being that* 6s consciously identify with the disadvantaged position* and counter it with Cphobia or courage; whereas, the *8 consciously identifies with the empowered position *while working to ensure that position isn't compromised; any inner powerlessness is unconsciously denied- *cp6 are somewhat aware of it* though denial of fear can be strong thanks to habituation from being a head type.


I agree that counter-phobic 6's can approach the world in a similar way to 8's, seeing the world as unjust and hard. The difference being the 8 sees it from the fixation of Lust, in the tone of "I'm going to take you on", while the 6 sees from the fixation of Fear, in the tone of "Nothing is safe, I can't trust anyone. I must protect myself against the enemies, the world." 

I think how they identify can be either conscious or unconscious. Another key difference between the types is that 6 identifies with the superego. I don't think it's so much that all counter-phobic 6's are somewhat aware of it, but that the motivation to act that way is different: Fear in identification with the Superego.



> *1)* One way of maintaining egoic boundaries for CP 6s, in an uncertain and difficult / oppositional environment with a mistrustful mind such as theirs (operative passion: fear), disconnected from the instinctual centre, is to project what is concerned unacceptable in oneself or what is seen as "off" on to others, in order to justify mistrust and maintain an image of "security" in their knowledge and preparedness in handling whatever a person might throw at them.


So the primary defense mechanism of projection: CP 6's will project both what is unacceptable in oneself and their fears that others may harm them (their fear of the world) in order to justify their mistrust, and reinforce their need for security.



> *2)* Another way of maintaining these boundaries in the same kind of environment (or more like how it's perceived) is to unconsciously deny fear and emotional vulnerability to maintain a self-image of strength and an image of having control over a situation or the actions of an individual, should unpredictability arise. In addition to this, 6s are known has having a deep fear of being affected by other people, of being controlled by them. This is 8-like as well. 8s just underestimate potential challenges and are less easily threatened relative to cp6s and obviously phobic ones lol. So, a type that perceives the environment as oppositional, can surely seek to arm themselves against it (or the passion of fear, in other words) by unconsciously denying vulnerability to affirm an image of strength. If a Cp 6s life circumstances have posed myriad obstacles, it's possible that not only have they used denial and projection, but* possibly employed denial more than projection.* This goes back to the clinical definition of DMs, in which case people will employ defenses relative to circumstances and their own self-awareness, regardless of what 'type' they fall under an unverified psychospiritual framework.


I think it's important to note that the key distinct difference between the way this type of denial operates in a 6 as opposed to an 8 is that projection will always precede denial in a 6, because the reason the 6 denies their own vulnerability is out of their projected fear that the world and life are unsafe and threatening.

I think it's true that many counter-phobic 6's have mistyped and been mistyped as 8's. Especially 6's that have little self-awareness and are more connected to 3. So while I can agree that both a 6 and 8 can use denial, I don't think I can agree that they could use it more or to the same degree that 8's do.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

sleepyhead said:


> I agree that counter-phobic 6's can approach the world in a similar way to 8's, seeing the world as unjust and hard. The difference being the 8 sees it from the fixation of Lust, in the tone of "I'm going to take you on", while the 6 sees from the fixation of Fear, in the tone of "Nothing is safe, I can't trust anyone. I must protect myself against the enemies, the world."


That's exactly what I said in my post, the difference between Fear vs. Vengeance, Doubt and Lust.

The 'enemies' part is definitely an exaggeration and so is 'nothing' being safe' even if that's RH's preferred manner of distinguishing the type from 8, although the lack of trust in the world and the tendency to see the world in black/white terms "for/against" is definitely very 8 as well. Naranjo covers it well. So, that particular statement isn't all that telling. As for safety, what 6s look for is more certainty and preparedness. As I emphasized multiple times, denial is used to attain different ends by 6s and 8s.



> I think how they identify can be either conscious or unconscious. Another key difference between the types is that 6 identifies with the superego. I don't think it's so much that all counter-phobic 6's are somewhat aware of it, but that the motivation to act that way is different: Fear in identification with the Superego.


Right. You are just reiterating my point. You are paraphrasing me there in the first sentence. It wasn't an 8/6 post in general, and surely it's no surprise that there is the Id / Superego difference. I also don't recall using "all". As for fear awareness, Cp 6s are relatively more aware of fear than 8s are whose attentional pattern inflates their own leverage relative to potential threats, comparatively speaking. However, they can also be quite unaware of their existential anxiety for lack of another point of reference. Whether a type is ID or superego, it's irrelevant to which defense mechanisms 6 would use as a primary.



> So the primary defense mechanism of projection: CP 6's will project both what is unacceptable in oneself and their fears that others may harm them (their fear of the world) in order to justify their mistrust, and reinforce their need for security.


Again, you are not adding anything new. This is exactly what I said. LOL

So far, you have repeated my points as premises for a conclusion you claim is different.




> I think it's important to note that the key distinct difference between the way this type of denial operates in a 6 as opposed to an 8 is that projection will always precede denial in a 6, because the reason the 6 denies their own vulnerability is out of their projected fear that the world and life are unsafe and threatening.


Now, you're talking.

Why must projection "always" precede denial? The 8's view of the world is no different from the cp6's world view. If the 8 viewed the world as fundamentally being on their side ('safety'), they wouldn't deny vulnerability in arming themselves against it. Both types have an oppositional relationship with the environment, and both types feel pitted against life. The safety and danger element in 6 descriptions is, by now, considered overblown relative to what exactly it is that cp6s are seeking in an environment that they view as an 8 does, with the exclusion of the 6's attunement to uncertainty- preparedness and surety. It can be similarly argued that the reason why 8's use denial at all is because their own view of the world as being against them arises out of projection (which is what it is) of their own unconscious weakness (rejection triad), whether that projection is rooted in an existential anxiety (head type) or out of anger at having been 'wronged' (gut type) does not conclusively point to CP 6s, situationally, using one more than the other, if that's your point. There is nothing saying that cp6s are more likely to use projection, before denial, overall, by virtue of being head types and that denial has anything to do the body triad specifically for 8.





> I think it's true that many counter-phobic 6's have mistyped and been mistyped as 8's. Especially 6's that have little self-awareness and are more connected to 3. So while I can agree that both a 6 and 8 can use denial, I don't think I can agree that they could use it more or to the same degree that 8's do.


Yeah, that's common knowledge. Though, I wouldn't attribute 'lil' self awareness in general. There are self-aware cp6s typing at 8 because of the nature of typing descriptions and the extent to which fear is denied and the extent to which they get habituated to it, a point that Maitri makes thankfully.

Right, and I don't agree with you in that they necessary use it less than 8s.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

hal0hal0 said:


> I've started seeing disintegration sort of like a forest fire or the phoenix's rebirth. Yes, they cause destruction, pain, and even death, yet they also provide the opportunity for new beginnings, if we so choose to learn from those bad experiences and let go of pride or whatever else we might get hung up on. I can either sweep my mistakes under the rug because I'm too ashamed to admit I'm wrong or I can swallow my pride and learn from them (and newsflash, it prolly ain't gonna kill me). It is, oddly, those most miserable of years that are often the most formative, for me, and I often look on them fondly, in hindsight.


Yes, it's amazing how much we hold onto the very things we keep us locked in such self-inhibiting ways, to let go has to be the hardest thing, but without pain, there is no gain as they say...It's not even always about the end result but the journey of being, like a re-birth. I watched a movie recently called 'Gravity', tells the story of two people who go into space, one leading the trip and the other - a doctor with only 6 months training who is of quite a nervous disposition, with so much doubt in herself, not aware of her own capabilities when only pushed to the limit. A tragedy happens where she loses her space-partner/mentor and is all on her own in outer space and she goes through some kind of re-existence, after losing her mentor, she dreams about him coming into the spaceship she has reached for salvation, he speaks wise words to her, these words kind of give her an epiphany where she suddenly knows what to do in order to get herself out of the situation she is is where she must get back down to planet earth, emotionally vulnerable and paralysed in her previous ability to move herself forward with her own hands, the knowledge comes to her as if by magic when her mentor leaves her dream. And so there is this scene where she is floating and because of the gravitational nature in space, she floats into this kind of foetal position, it's supposed to mean something. And then when she goes through a near-death experience of landing her spaceship down to earth, she becomes reborn as she takes her first steps again. Erm, so long story short, she goes through much pain to notice things in context, to take herself out of her locked mindset she existed in before. 
And it's good to remember our journeys from previous times, good and bad, to see how far we've progressed into our who we are today. It is a neverending progress. :happy:



> I often catch myself frustrated and discontent with my present circumstances—either impatiently waiting for the future of better tomorrows to arrive or pining with nostalgia for days gone past. Or worrying about the future and the uncertainties it brings or regretting the past and opportunities missed. I've often felt like I'm in life's waiting room; as if there is some barrier or disconnect between me and the rest of the world, barring me from actually living. Then I wonder: Why am I doing this? A lot of the time, I just need to mentally slap myself in the face and think about how silly I'm being. Cherish and focus on the things before me within my grasp, rather than covet the things that are high in the sky.


I really resonate with this.  There is a certain fear of the future because there is something void about it, because it really is an abstract, empty canvass waiting to be filled almost as if it were either predetermined or there was nothing and the idea of where it could potentially go, sort of fills me up with dread. These moments where you have these thoughts, do they seem to reoccur over and over or like something that grabs you unexpectantly? When feeling all existential n stuff, I get stuck in these sorts of thought trains, where everything is a snippet of a movie reel, watching it as if it were happening from a film scene, cars rushing past, clock ticking, time slows down, not really hearing what is being said but people become shadowy figures gone past, ready to move to the next scene of the film. And then, yes, haha! A quick jolt back into reality, a metaphorical slap round the face *know that feelz* . It makes you question your own existence sometimes though, everything... 



> _It's realizing that you are all nine types and then beginning to actualize that in your life. I think the mistake most people make is in trying to negate their type without providing any alternatives. You've developed worthwhile skills by living life from your type. Don't try to get rid of them. Just realize the tendency to overuse them even when they're not appropriate. Learn more appropriate skills by realizing the value of the other types that have been denied in yourself (often due to an over-identification with your type fixation).
> _Life is too complicated for one-size-fits-all solutions, which is what the enneagram fixations delude us into thinking (i.e., for a 9: "If I can find a way to just not deal with the unpleasantness, then all will be good."). There is not One answer, One truth, or One path, however. There are many, many paths. A "time for everything" so to speak:


Agreed. Really appreciate this perspective and because it's less confining, we have all the sins in us to varying extents.



> A bit of a personal rant, but I think postmodernism gets turned into this derogatory buzzword to describe things that have no meaning or cohesiveness, when that's an oversimplified view. I tend to adhere to Lyotard's original definition which is the rejection of the metanarrative (i.e., the One Grand truth). Postmodernism was really about moving away from single, one-size-fits-all answers and embracing radical pluralism (i.e., the "voice of many"). The reason postmodernism has so many different definitions is because that's kind of the point. This does run into the problem where there are too many people talking, however (i.e., everybody on the internet has an opinion).


Yeah, by embracing an all inclusive approach, like you added though and in addition - too many cooks spoil the broth! :tongue:
It's kinda like the collective/individuality argument, I mean, it's difficult to take sides on this one because both perspectives are valid in their own right but the answer I suppose is where they fit into an all encompassing movement. Is it inconsistent to intermingle the two within a single framework although in fact, there are many frameworks that overlap intended or not but awareness of the complexity of this issue is one step in the right direction. At this moment in history, I think we are at a stage where are going through a transition of it's own(I mean transition is ever occurring), at these times, things are muddled, individuality in a sense caused us to pull in multidirection when at times, such a perplexing state to decipher.



> Hm, that's a good question, whether we are simply running in place or actually getting somewhere. I think certainly individuals themselves are making progress and small groups are as well, so I have to take it on faith that the whole of humanity is moving (albeit very slowly) in that direction as well.


Wish I could place a quote in exchange but can't think of who it's by but it's about the power of small acts contributing something more powerful in order to make progress. How a series of small events have a knock on effect. And yes, it doesn't matter if it does happen to be at a slow rate at least as it is moving in the right way. It's all cool beanz!



> I think McLuhan had a lot of fascinating ideas and I'm always interested by how media and the internet shape society and human consciousness (for instance, the internet is seen as an extension of our nervous system). Some of his ideas I still have difficulty wrapping my head around, but I do agree that technology is often the catalyst of change in society (i.e., the assembly line, the H-bomb, the printed word, the wheel, the internet, phones, etc.).


I will just post this short piece of soundage here. It's got a bit of a negative conclusion but is the only thing I can illustrate how we are connected to technology and it connects us. If I think of something more positive with this, I shall post. 








> That's another 10 cans of worms, however intriguing I may find these subjects.


And there's another 10 here where that one came from :tongue: *darn, I need a new tin opener*


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> They speak of an unconscious denial of fear and vulnerability much like an 8. Here's the caveat. It's the same mechanism of 8 serving a different purpose, because the types are fundamentally different despite crucial similarities such as belonging in the reactive triad as well as having an oppositional relationship with the environment.


I agree that they are fundamentally different types, but disagree that it is the same mechanism for both. 



> It should take you a lot to be convinced of this. Yes, we all know that shit about 6 and 8. However, being equally 6 doesn't mean that cp 6 isn't as a distinct sub-type of 6 that copes with the loss of contact with Essence, resulting in the specific deficiency of fear, much like the phobic 6, albeit with a defense strategy that may be closer to the 8. P and CP 6 are perhaps the most blaringly different, not just in outward behaviour but also in how they unconsciously grapple with the core fear of uncertainty/anxiety (moving towards or against) which they obviously share by virtue of being the same type.


But they are fundamentally 6. They aren't exactly "subtypes" either - they have the same passion and virtue as Phobic 6's, and that is more critical to the type's inner architecture than the way they handle those parts of their type as it relates with the world around them. I understand what you're saying in the sense that CP 6's go about dealing with their fear differently than P6, but I don't think that justifies giving them a distinct "subtype" with a different DM to match the different way of coping with their fear. The passion is the same. 



> So, while a CP 6 may see the world as unjust and hard much like the 8, their core cognitive distortion has to do with compulsively keying in to uncertainty ("not knowing") as a fixation (in other words self-doubt, with the passion being fear itself), in a world perceived as unpredictable and "unsupportive" (armed against life, "guns blazing" as Naranjo describes it). The hardening and arming oneself against life is exactly like 8, with the primary difference being that 6s consciously identify with the disadvantaged position and counter it with Cphobia or courage; whereas, the 8 consciously identifies with the empowered position while working to ensure that position isn't compromised; any inner powerlessness is unconsciously denied- cp6 are somewhat aware of it though denial of fear can be strong thanks to habituation from being a head type.


But right away, where are these feelings of "injustice" coming from? And why, exactly, are they constantly unsure about the world around them? Projection. Not "projection" in a communicative sense of, for example, accusing someone of having an attitude the 6 in fact has, but in the sense of ascribing in this case negative emotions to their surroundings to coincide with their suspicion. That's where the "guns blazing" comes from. I don't doubt that CP6's go against their own fear as a way of countering it, but in order to have that fear as a distorted view of reality to begin with, one must find reason to be afraid. Which, with respect to 6's and projection, occurs as the 6's innate fear causes them to find reasons to feel positively or negatively towards their surroundings. Projection has a lot to do with the cynicism and suspicion of 6. 

I also don't see why it couldn't be argued that even the CP6's project - not deny - onto their own fear. In other words, feeling fearful makes CP6's more afraid, and hence more guarded and belligerent. 

Overall, I don't disagree with you that CP6 and 8 can look alike in behavior, but the mechanism driving it begins at a different attitude. I think you're over-relying on behavioral similarity to justify using the same DM when it's actually the DM that drives the behavior. To Deny fear is not the same thing as to act against it. And Projection doesn't have to involve an accusation or action, it can result in simply having a certain attitude towards something or someone.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Figure said:


> I agree that they are fundamentally different types, but disagree that it is the same mechanism for both.


What is your argument for the mechanism being different? You haven't exactly refuted any of my points made keeping the passions, fixations and holy ideas of each of the types in mind. For you to even remotely claim, as you do towards the end, that my argument is based primarily on behavioural descriptors is a gross misrepresentation of my point. It's a strawman.

My quotes in blue.





> But they are fundamentally 6. They aren't exactly "subtypes" either - they have the same passion and virtue as Phobic 6's, and that is more critical to the type's inner architecture than the way they handle those parts of their type as it relates with the world around them. I understand what you're saying in the sense that CP 6's go about dealing with their fear differently than P6, but I don't think that justifies giving them a distinct "subtype" with a different DM to match the different way of coping with their fear. The passion is the same.


I don't recall saying the passion 'isn't the same. Where did I say they weren't fundamentally 6s? In fact, I said the opposite. 



> Yes, we all know that shit about 6 and 8. However, being equally 6 doesn't mean that cp 6 isn't as a distinct sub-type of 6 that copes with the loss of contact with Essence, resulting in the specific deficiency of fear, much like the phobic 6, albeit with a defense strategy that may be closer to the 8. P and CP 6 are perhaps the most blaringly different, not just in outward behaviour but also in how they unconsciously grapple with the core fear of uncertainty/anxiety (moving towards or against) *which they obviously share by virtue of being the same type. *



Naranjo considers CP and P 6s as sub-types of 6. If you disagree with that, what is argument for the same? In case you think I have made a radical claim there, as much as I'd love to take credit for it, I haven't. 




> But right away, where are these feelings of "injustice" coming from? And why, exactly, are they constantly unsure about the world around them? Projection. Not "projection" in a communicative sense of, for example, accusing someone of having an attitude the 6 in fact has, but in the sense of ascribing in this case negative emotions to their surroundings to coincide with their suspicion. That's where the "guns blazing" comes from.


That's exactly how I described projection, as a mechanism for confirming their doubts so as to have a sense of predictability and certainty about others and the environment- security, in other words. 

I said clearly that the perception of "injustice" for 8s and 6s arises from a different place. I covered that when I talked about the passions and fixations. However, it doesn't mean that the "guns blazing" does not also emerge from a denial of vulnerability much like 8. 

I even said that for the 8, uncertainty doesn't feed into their world view. I will address how projection can play a role in the perception and defenses of both 8s and 6s, below, when I address the former's placement in the rejection triad. 




> So, while a CP 6 may see the world as unjust and hard much like the 8, their core cognitive distortion* has to do with compulsively keying in to uncertainty ("not knowing") as a fixation (in other words self-doubt, with the passion being fear itself)*, in a world perceived as unpredictable and "unsupportive" (armed against life, "guns blazing" as Naranjo describes it). The hardening and arming oneself against life is exactly like 8, with the primary difference being that 6s consciously identify with the disadvantaged position and counter it with Cphobia or courage; whereas, the 8 consciously identifies with the empowered position while working to ensure that position isn't compromised; any inner powerlessness is unconsciously denied- cp6 are somewhat aware of it though denial of fear can be strong thanks to habituation from being a head type. I have addressed both projection and denial in my post.





> *1)* One way of maintaining egoic boundaries for CP 6s, in an uncertain and difficult / oppositional environment with a mistrustful mind such as theirs (operative passion: fear), disconnected from the instinctual centre, is to *project *what is concerned unacceptable in oneself or what is seen as "off" on to others, in order to justify mistrust and maintain an image of "security" in their knowledge and preparedness in handling whatever a person might throw at them.
> 
> *2)* Another way of maintaining these boundaries in the same kind of environment (or more like how it's perceived) is to unconsciously deny fear and emotional vulnerability to maintain a self-image of strength and an image of having control over a situation or the actions of an individual, should unpredictability arise. In addition to this, 6s are known has having a deep fear of being affected by other people, of being controlled by them. This is 8-like as well. 8s just underestimate potential challenges and are less easily threatened relative to cp6s and obviously phobic ones lol. So, a type that perceives the environment as oppositional, can surely seek to arm themselves against it (or the passion of fear, in other words) by unconsciously denying vulnerability to affirm an image of strength. If a Cp 6s life circumstances have posed myriad obstacles, it's possible that not only have they used denial and projection, but possibly employed denial more than projection. This goes back to the clinical definition of DMs, in which case people will employ defenses relative to circumstances and their own self-awareness, regardless of what 'type' they fall under an unverified psychospiritual framework.


If you want to talk about why exactly an 8 considers the world hard and unjust or why a 3 has the world-view that their worth will only be affirmed if they become a human doing, it can be just as easily argued as a form of projection of ones own unacceptable drives on to the external environment. Unconscious feelings of weakness (rejection triad) can be rightly seen as a *projection* on the external environment as being hard, difficult and oppositional in case of 8s. It confirms their view of the world being unjust so they can move against it. This is explained in more detail in my last coloured quote, as well as key differences. _6s project fear, and 8s project blame. _In either case, projection is a part of their defense.

In that sense, the DM of every single type has an element of projection. Cp 6s use projection to confirm their suspicion or mistrust or guardedness, however this does not negate the argument that they can use denial just like the 8 to maintain a self-image of strength in an environment perceived as unsupportive and hard. A DM arises in relation to an "idealized" self-image and an avoidance pattern. I am quoting O'Hanrahan here. A cp 6 can have the idealized image of strength and avoid vulnerability just like an 8. What is it to say that denial and projection can't both be attributed as defense, to different ends as I repeatedly said in the previous post where I connected this with the passions and fixations of each type, mechanisms for the type? 




> I don't doubt that CP6's go against their own fear as a way of countering it, but in order to have that fear as a distorted view of reality to begin with, one must find reason to be afraid. Which, with respect to 6's and projection, occurs as the 6's innate fear causes them to find reasons to feel positively or negatively towards their surroundings.


I don't deny this. In fact, that's exactly what I described as being projection. In terms of phobic 6s, denial of vulnerability doesn't quite apply because they tend to be much more in tune with their fears and their idealized self-image has little to do with invulnerability and/or pronounced self-reliance. So yes, phobic 6s are also far more likely to project positively upon authority figures to see them as sources of security and guidance. This is not to say that CP6s don't do this at all. There are times when a CP 6 may also project positively upon a lover or other source of security to maintain an illusion of support. Projection can go both ways. But, I digress. 



> I also don't see why it couldn't be argued that even the CP6's project - not deny - onto their own fear. In other words, feeling fearful makes CP6's more afraid, and hence more guarded and belligerent.


There's more than one way to skin the cat. I am sure a conscious awareness of fear can also make the type more guarded and aggressive. 8s are also known to exemplify the CP approach to life; I quote RH. This doesn't just have the positive connotation of overcoming fears in the form of courage. In that sense, feeling threatened (a by product of fear) can bring out aggression in an 8 as well. 




> Overall, I don't disagree with you that CP6 and 8 can look alike in behavior, but the mechanism driving it begins at a different attitude. I think you're over-relying on behavioral similarity to justify using the same DM when it's actually the DM that drives the behavior. To Deny fear is not the same thing as to act against it. And Projection doesn't have to involve an accusation or action, it can result in simply having a certain attitude towards something or someone.


My main point had nothing to do with the types being behaviourally similar. I gave plenty of arguments that talked far more about the types' world view, the differences in similarities in head vs gut centre drives, passions, virtues and Holy Ideas, defense mechanisms, idealization and avoidance patterns and more. If the bulk of what you took away from that was 'behavioural' similarities, you are hilariously off the mark here LOL.

As for the second last statement, both types can act against fear and still use denial as a defense mechanism to the same degree, although for different ends as described in the previous post, quoted below. Now, I have nowhere claimed that projection necessarily involves an action or overt accusation. Since I haven't proclaimed that cp6s do not use projection and elaborated upon denial as an additional DM, the post below elaborates on that specifically. Projection has been covered above. While it is a part of the blazing guns approach, it is not to the exclusion of denial used the way 8's do, albeit to different ends as stated multiple times. 



> *Passions, Fixations etc- a bit more on this shit-*
> This is a big reason why MANY 6s, esp CP 6s, repeatedly cite their fear of vulnerability, including emotional vulnerability, and repeatedly assert their oppositional stance to life ( needing an "enemy" to mobilize against; hell seeing life itself as the enemy) in argument for an 8 typing. Sure, they employ denial much like the 8, but it's done to ensure a self-image of strength in service of being secure and prepared in an uncertain environment that instills anxiety (may call it dominant or confrontational self-image, another reason why it's a toss up between 8 and cp 6 for many) at the core. The 8 unconsciously denies it to maintain an image of strength and invulnerability in the service of expanding control over a conflictual and hard/difficult environment that instills "anger" (gut anger that moves against and expansively asserts control, to maintain a thick ego boundary in self protection against described environment;* its uncertainty (fear- the passion), hence related self-doubt* *(fixation), not being constituents of the core neurosis for 8)*. The 8's passion is Lust, which results in a powerful drive towards intensity, excesses, struggle and control. Lust is inverted envy, in a way, because it arises from feeling excluded from life. The associated feeling of "loss" a softer emotion is denied unconsciously to maintain an image of invulnerability. The same denial of softer emotions contributes to the fixation of vengeance, which is said to loosen once the 8 acknowledges their own vulnerability and ceases to see themselves as inherently separate (stops objectifiying others) as opposed to acknowledging the Oneness of essence and existence (Holy Truth). Cp 6s benefit from identifying denial and using that self-awareness to develop Holy Faith (by recognizing strength/will/grounding as naturally arising from Essence as opposed to being the missing piece), so to speak, and put down em blazin' guns.


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## sleepyhead (Nov 14, 2011)

I should have clarified my re-statements. I sometimes find your posts difficult to follow so it's helpful for me to re-word things so I can make sure I haven't misunderstood your post - I don't think our conclusion is really all that different.



Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Why must projection "always" precede denial? The 8's view of the world is no different from the cp6's world view. If the 8 viewed the world as fundamentally being on their side (safety), they wouldn't deny vulnerability in arming themselves against it. Both types have an oppositional relationship with the environment, and both types feel pitted against life. The safety and danger element in 6 descriptions is, by now, considered overblown relative to what exactly it is that cp6s are seeking in an environment that they view as an 8 does- preparedness and certainty. It can be similarly argued that the reason why 8's use denial at all is because their own view of the world as being against them arises out of projection (which is what it is), whether that projection is rooted in an existential anxiety (head type) or out of anger at having been 'wronged' (gut type) does not conclusively point to CP 6s, situationally, using one more than the other, if that's your point. There is nothing saying that cp6s are more likely to use projection, before denial, overall, by virtue of being head types and that denial has anything to do the body triad specifically for 8.


I don't know if I would agree the 8 and 6 view of the world is no different - I think they both see it as oppositional, but I think the fact that one comes from fear and one comes from lust means their experience of that oppositional world is coloured by a very different perspective. I see what you're saying though - that 8's project blame onto others; 6's project fear onto others.

But one thing I've really noticed in working with CP 6's who resemble 8's is that they still project their own fears back on themselves - that's why I made a point to reference the superego earlier, and I think this is probably what you were referencing when you said that 6's are perhaps more conscious of the fear (whereas 8's might not be conscious of their blame). I think the superego makes the 6 more aware of that fear because the self-doubt always comes in to ask, "What if I'm the problem/what if I'm wrong?" even if others never see that self-doubt or even if the 6 themselves aren't aware of it. 

I agree that denial in this way cannot be a clear indicator of a type, because if we observe this process in another, we aren't privy to all the underlying factors. I just shy away from saying that it would be as strong or stronger than projection in a 6. I think all types use all defense mechanisms to some degree, but I tend to notice that even if those other DM are in use, the primary DM is usually still at the core of the secondary DM. 

If the question being asked is: can DM be used as a primary typing tool? I think the obvious answer is no, because there are many factors at play and ultimately it is the passions and virtues that make a type.

If the question is: Can different DM's be used by different types to the same degrees? I think that is a possibility but it doesn't negate the primary defense - if you unpack further, I think the primary defense is often at the core.

As for whether or not the DM is truly the same, I think that depends on how you define "the same." I would say no, because the process for how they got to their conclusion of denial is very different, despite the end-point looking nearly identical from the outside. 

I have a few more thoughts to add, but I'll have to swing back in later.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

sleepyhead said:


> I should have clarified my re-statements. I sometimes find your posts difficult to follow so it's helpful for me to re-word things so I can make sure I haven't misunderstood your post - I don't think our conclusion is really all that different.



Good. That makes more sense re: re-statements. I find it a waste of time to read reiterations of my own points repeatedly, but if it helps you, it helps and that's fine. I'll keep that in mind.




> I don't know if I would agree the 8 and 6 view of the world is no different - I think they both see it as oppositional, but I think the fact that one comes from fear and one comes from lust means their experience of that oppositional world is coloured by a very different perspective. I see what you're saying though - that 8's project blame onto others; 6's project fear onto others.


This is where we agree. I don't claim, at all, that their experience isn't coloured by different perspectives. In fact, I delved into those differences with regards to fixations, passions, virtues, holy ideas, defense mechanisms, idealization and avoidance patterns in details. I didn't want those differences to be lost in translation only because the types look similar outwardly.

It's funny how before I saw your post, I had written exactly what you said about 6's projecting fear and 8's projecting blame. 



> But one thing I've really noticed in working with CP 6's who resemble 8's is that they still project their own fears back on themselves - that's why I made a point to reference the superego earlier, and I think this is probably what you were referencing when you said that 6's are perhaps more conscious of the fear (whereas 8's might not be conscious of their blame). I think the superego makes the 6 more aware of that fear because the self-doubt always comes in to ask, "What if I'm the problem/what if I'm wrong?" even if others never see that self-doubt or even if the 6 themselves aren't aware of it.


This is an excellent point, and I completely agree with it. The 6's attunement to uncertainty and/or threats is key to their attentional pattern, as laid out concisely by Palmer ( a cp6 herself who does a far better job of covering the type than most other authors); whereas the tendency to view oneself as larger than potential challenges is a key component of the 8's attentional pattern. Fear can be denied, both consciously and unconsciously, in either case. The cp 6 is, relative to 8, more attuned to it, even if, from day to day, they may not be as aware of the anxiety as a phobic 6 would be. 

There's no doubt that there's the polarity of self-questioning and rash decision making in cp6s. In fact, the rash decisions or even a hugely inflated self-image (megalomania as N and Palmer put it) can an anti-dote to the doubt itself (even if in highly fixated cp6s, the conscious awareness of such can be quite low). 



> I agree that denial in this way cannot be a clear indicator of a type, because if we observe this process in another, we aren't privy to all the underlying factors. I just shy away from saying that it would be as strong or stronger than projection in a 6. I think all types use all defense mechanisms to some degree, but I tend to notice that even if those other DM are in use, the primary DM is usually still at the core of the secondary DM.


Yes. Another point that came to mind was that denial is a very vague DM, as there are plenty of 3s, 7s and 1s who deny vulnerability to maintain a certain self-image of control or being formidable or self-reliant. 3's have a major fixation on self-reliance, and can be seen as having a bit of a God complex given their belief that they need to be compulsively productive in order for things to go as they desire, in order to be in control of the outcome (active hypervigilance as N puts it). Sp 3s are known to be very detached and disconnected with their shame and vulnerability. This is not to say that I argue that denial is a primary DM for 3,s 7s and 1s as well. 

I just see it as far more applicable to Cp 6s, in conjunction with, or situationally, even preceding projection. This is not to say cp 6s do not project, at all. The cp 6s who proclaim that they employ denial more than projection may not be entirely off the mark, in that they project fear (like the 8 projects blame) and unconsciously (at times consciously, which is the case with 8 as well) deny it to maintain an idealized self image of invulnerability. I've already covered that the uncertainty of the environment doesn't lend itself to the 8's trait structure and defense mechanism. 

Any kind of denial will likely have an element of projection. I addressed this in my post above. We've both covered the 8 projection of blame. 



> If the question being asked is: can DM be used as a primary typing tool? I think the obvious answer is no, because there are many factors at play and ultimately it is the passions and virtues that make a type.


Indeed. Besides, as I said earlier, defense mechanisms and 'type' correlations are notoriously hard to test and verify in the general population.



> If the question is: Can different DM's be used by different types to the same degrees? I think that is a possibility but it doesn't negate the primary defense - if you unpack further, I think the primary defense is often at the core.


I don't fully disagree. 

I wouldn't say that the primary defense is categorically negated and overridden across a Type, but I do think that there is a strong possibility that two defense mechanisms can be equally operative in a Type. Hell, for the sake of argument, I am open to the possibility that, given psychological factors and other life experiences, a primary defense mechanism may lose out to another more suitable one to ensure survival, emotional and psychological resilience and adaptation. If this becomes more entrenched, it's possible a person may habituate themselves to employing a defense mechanism, unconsciously, which is similar to (likely) or connected with, although not necessarily identical to the one Enneagram associates with type. 

In another sense, Idealization and rationalization, as I said, are seen as applicable to 3s, firstly by Naranjo but also by RH in one of their books (though I am not too sure if it was RH or some other credible author, but I have seen this for sure). So, a few authors ascribe more than one defense mechanism to some of the types. That in itself brings the 'primary' deal into question. 



> As for whether or not the DM is truly the same, I think that depends on how you define "the same." I would say no, because the process for how they got to their conclusion of denial is very different, despite the end-point looking nearly identical from the outside.


The DM is aimed at different ends ultimately (fixations, passions, holy ideas etc.), arises from different cognitive distortions, although it *functions* in the same manner by definition of the DM itself (also if we take the idealized self image of strength and avoidance of weakness/vulnerability, which is common to 8s and cp6s, even if the perception of vulnerability arises from dissimilar sources as I've covered multiple times, in sufficient depth).



> I have a few more thoughts to add, but I'll have to swing back in later.


Anytime


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> What is your argument for the mechanism being different? You haven't exactly refuted any of my points made keeping the passions, fixations and holy ideas of each of the types in mind. For you to even remotely claim, as you do towards the end, that my argument is based primarily on behavioural descriptors is a gross misrepresentation of my argument. It's a strawman.


I'm only saying this once, so read carefully. I'm not responding to any of this here on out if it contains accusations of me twisting things you say or other condescending comments. You've been pissing me off a long time with this, and I'm done letting it go out of respect. I'm entitled to my opinion and you're entitled to yours, and we're both entitled to disagree. I'm happy to debate if it leads to a better understanding of type, but I'm done with the "you're distorting what I said" bullshit, as well as any mocking comments you may think to post in response to my irritation here. It's fluff, and a waste of my time. Post any more of it and I'm done with the conversation. Capiche?

[HR][/HR]



> What is your argument for the mechanism being different?


My argument for the mechanism being different is actually in agreement with a comment you made a few days ago:



> I will add that a type's characteristic virtue has little to do with which defense strategy, avoidance pattern and idealized self-image it implies. A Type's Passion and Fixation has a lot more to do with it.


CP 6 and 6 share the passion of Fear. 8 has the passion of Lust. Phobic 6's do not claim to "deny" fear, but CP6's do. If a DM has something to do with passion and CP6 and 6 share the same passion, why wouldn't Phobic 6's also deny fear? 

Because CP6's would not have to deny fear if they didn't have the fear to begin with. And the fear, as it does for Phobic 6's, comes from Projecting attitudes about the world around them. In other words, the "denial" would cease to exist without their fear that comes from Projection. Projection is therefore more central to their inner architecture than Denial is. 




> If you want to talk about why exactly an 8 considers the world hard and unjust or why a 3 has the world-view that their worth will only be affirmed if they become a human doing, it can be just as easily argued as a form of projection of ones own unacceptable drives on to the external environment.


CP6's do not project their unacceptable drives onto their environment. They project their passion of fear onto their environment. They, as we agree, have a positive or negative attitude about something as a result of fear. 8's do not "project lust" onto their environment, they simply are lustful to begin with, just as CP 6's are fearful to begin with. 




> Cp 6s use projection to confirm their suspicion or mistrust or guardedness, however this does not negate the argument that they can use denial just like the 8 to maintain a self-image of strength in an environment perceived as unsupportive and hard. A DM arises in relation to an "idealized" self-image and an avoidance pattern. I am quoting O'Hanrahan here. A cp 6 can have the idealized image of strength and avoid vulnerability just like an 8. What is it to say that denial and projection can't both be attributed as defense mechanisms for the type?


It doesn't negate that they "use" it (though I still disagree that they do personally) - however, it does negate that it is their primary defense mechanism. 

O'Hanrahan does not say that a DM "arises in relation to an idealized self image." He says that:



> Yet we need some defenses in this world, at least short of being enlightened. How can we manage our defenses to become more flexible, more connected to others and more available to our full potential? The good news is that the enneagram provides an instruction manual of sorts. If we know our type, we know what we need to work on. We don't easily disarm our defenses, but a commitment to personal growth makes a huge difference. At first we are not able to change things as we might wish, but we send a signal to the authentic part of ourselves and also to others: we know we are more than our type structure. Our defenses are here, but we are not completely controlled by them.
> 
> The defenses are part and parcel of our type structure. Although we are not limited to just one defense mechanism - we can use any of them - one of them is more closely associated with our type. In fact, the defense mechanism appropriates the strength of our type and diverts this capacity to keep us safe, or at least to keep our ego intact.
> ​
> ...


and that:



> 6) Sixes use *projection* to avoid *rejection* and to maintain a self image of being *loyal*. Projection is a way of attributing to others what one can't accept in oneself, both positive and negative. Positive feelings are projected onto a romantic relationship or an external authority figure in order to assure safety and justify loyalty. Negative feelings are projected onto others to justify internal feelings of fear and distrust. Sixes support their projections by finding and amplifying the information which fits their premise.


I may disagree with O'Hanrahan about the self-image of the 6 being "loyal," and that this description may be more pertinent to Phobic 6's than CP. However, CP6's do not have a *self-image* of being "strong," they have a *self-idealization* of being "strong," and really, I would call it more "assured" than "strong." They think they must be assured to avoid their lack of certainty. And as O'Hanrahan says, the DM of any type is a way of maintaining the structural conflict between the self-idealization and the avoidance - so in this case, CP 6's use Projection in response to having a self-idealization of being "assured," in contrast with an avoidance of uncertainty. They project by, again, arming themselves in reaction to negative suspicions of the world around them, so they are guarded before they happen. This is NOT DENIAL of fear. If anything, it's to keep the fear within the operations of the type 6 inner structure.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

dafuq..where did my post go LOL? just fuckin vanished...this thread is possessed. :|lofl

hopefully it's been saved cuz shit i won't type the damn multi-volume set again/ geez what a pain in the ass.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Found it in the edits, thank goodness (deal with the fucked up format guise:3):-






Figure said:


> I'm only saying this once, so read carefully. I'm not responding to any of this here on out if it contains accusations of me twisting things you say or other condescending comments. You've been pissing me off a long time with this, and I'm done letting it go out of respect. I'm entitled to my opinion and you're entitled to yours, and we're both entitled to disagree. I'm happy to debate if it leads to a better understanding of type, but I'm done with the "you're distorting what I said" bullshit, as well as any mocking comments you may think to post in response to my irritation here. It's fluff, and a waste of my time. Post any more of it and I'm done with the conversation. Capiche?


First of all, you should have PM'd me some of your personal complaints. If you are going to drag it out in public over a completely objective and impersonal point about your post, hey I'll play back. :kitteh:


* *





Let's hash it out for funsies:

Accusations? LOFL Quit being so 'sensitive'. It's comical and flaily. Since when is pointing out a clear fallacy a personal 'accusation'? Geez. If you are going to dismiss a post that obviously goes far beyond stereotypical outward traits as being based primarily on behaviours, of course you are going to get told that it's a misrepresentation of my main argument, in other words, it's fallacious. You want to be a part of a debate, then don't be that half-assed in your critiques of presented arguments. Period. I didn't take it personally, and it's clear who did. Think about that. :3

Surely, I have no issues with you disagreeing. I like people challenging my assumptions with well-made arguments. I participate when I do if I see room for improvement of my own perspective. So there. 

Oh you! Capiche yourself lmfao ! XD Wanna bow out? No fuckin skin off my back. <3 As for any instance where you've been called out for being underhanded, and it has only been some of the large number of times we have crossed paths, that's exactly what you had done. 

In fact, you have had the integrity, or so I hope, to apologize to me for one of those times just recently. You publicly admitted you had tried to 'provoke a reaction'. How fuckin lame is that? :laughing: Too bad you tried, partially, to use a post where I had shared deeply personal and sensitive details for this juvenile game. You even paraphrased said post in places, clearly. So, I deliberately regaled you. No wonder you had your ass checked for that bullshit. :kitteh:

You are not that fuckin oblivious, Figure. I wouldn't insult your intelligence like that. :3 Thinly veiled insults are full of it, even if they can be laughed off until they start sticking out like sore thumbs, and as someone whose M.O., disappointingly lolz, relies heavily on em sad backhanded barbs, you know that full well. 

On that note, don't even....hypocritically bitch about 'respect'. Can that ineffectual holier than thou garbage. You have no leg to stand on. *eye roll* Shit how ridiculous lofl. With me, you get exactly what you give. :3 Hell, on this thread, I was having an entirely neutral conversation with you given that's how you approached me yourself. There were no personal issues involved here, until you defensively raised them, whatsoever. And yet, here you are whining about a problem that wasn't even there. 

FYI, your chronic indirectness does not confer upon you a lolz higher 'moral ground', just because I am much more blunt in my expression of annoyance and/or strong displeasure. Want respect? This is how you get it:- 

Have enough "respect" to be honest and have the guts to be authentically respectful (and clearly I don't mean fawning displays of pretentious civility) in your dealings, despite any theoretical disagreements, instead of being categorically underhanded and passive aggressive on more occasion than one. It's wussy. You were not responded to strongly until that became a pattern. If you want to dig old graves here, I'll play that game. No fuckin problem. :kitteh: 
-Any mockery you have been shown resulted from your own repetitious nonsense, and it was obvious as fuck. It's not every damn day and with every next member that I run into that particular problem. I have been challenged, intelligently, honestly and with positive outcomes and mutually so, in the vast majority of cases here. *Shrugs* ​


​​ 
Moving On. If you want to talk about the more personal things further, I'd rather you PM me here on instead of derailing on this alone, unless you want to bow right out, which is fine by me.



> My argument for the mechanism being different is actually in agreement with a comment you made a few days ago:
> 
> 
> 
> CP 6 and 6 share the passion of Fear. 8 has the passion of Lust. Phobic 6's do not claim to "deny" fear, but CP6's do. If a DM has something to do with passion and CP6 and 6 share the same passion, why wouldn't Phobic 6's also deny fear?


 
Phobic 6s move away from uncertainty through the avoidance of what they fear instead of confronting it directly in most cases, and they are much more in tune with their anxieties, also much more support seeking and, more or less, okay with the fact that they value support and are not "invulnerable". A self-image of invulnerability does not enter the equation for phobic 6s, and hence there is little need to consciously and unconsciously deny fear to the same degree. It's accepted as a part of life. I already covered this. So, phobic 6s are more accepting of their doubt and do not, as an overarching pattern, counter-phobically move against it, in the process, developing a self image of strength. It is a self-image; N equates Sx 6 with Counterphobia, so his Sx 6 description is analogous to Cp 6s; he calls it "Strength and Beauty". It's common knowledge that CP 6s have the self-image of self-reliance and strength or invulnerability [based on variants and other experiences, it may have different sources such as physical strength or social influence or intellectual prowess and what O'H calls "fiercely held ideological positions" as indicative of strength] , so the 'assuredness' thing is off the mark. N even talks about cp6s in relation to *megalomania* and an inflated conception of their own strength, power in terms of self-image and actions-- "Along with these I have listed the descriptors _“they think they know the right way,” “pressuring others to conform,” “strong,” "bombastic", “courageous,” and “grandiose.”_ Sure, we have to read N with a grain of salt re: some of the verbiage, but the self-image of strength is definitely emphasized. 

If you want to talk about conscious denial or, at times, unconscious denial of fear, even phobic 6s are known to, unconsciously negate self-doubt at times, by acting independently to assert their autonomy, following a more consultative approach initially. In fact, I am paraphrasing Maitri here. This is how she put it, and it explained a lot. So, they can still deny fear. It's just not central to their defense the way it is for a CP 6 for reasons I've covered several times. 



> Because CP6's would not have to deny fear if they didn't have the fear to begin with. And the fear, as it does for Phobic 6's, comes from Projecting attitudes about the world around them. In other words, the "denial" would cease to exist without their fear that comes from Projection. Projection is therefore more central to their inner architecture than Denial is.


Of course, CP 6s have fear as the core passion. It arises from perceiving the environment as discomforting in its uncertainty, as well as oppositional, and thus unsupportive and lacking grounding; projection is the *mechanism* that keeps them locked into this perception or cognitive distortion. This is where the "anxiety/fear" (passion) emerges and the fixation on self-doubt (whether the 6 pushes towards or away from it). 

The "fear" does not emerge from projection itself per se, but it's what enforces the passion and fixation via confirmation of suspicions etc. Besides that, fear isn't the only thing that's denied by both types, so is weakness and dependency. Denial can be as crucial to the inner defense structure of CP 6s, given their self-image of strength and independence, in an environment seen as adverserial, much like the 8. As with the 8, denial can reinforce the perception that the environment is adversarial and unjust. It's the uncertainty that is the key distinction between the cognitive distortions of cp 6 vs 8, and this is the part projection fuels most directly for 6. 

It's my stance that because of the more complicated nature of the CP 6's relationship with vulnerability and a self-image that is much like that of an 8's, denial can play as crucial a role in maintaining the idealization pattern of strength and avoidance of weakness, again like 8s, as O'Hanrahan describes himself. It also reinforces their adversarial view of the world, besides just projection of fear and guilt into accusation (8s project blame) reinforcing the same, even if this perception arises from Loss of Contact with the Holy Idea of Faith rather than Holy Truth. Denial of softer emotions is the other factor that allows one to take the bull by the horns so to speak for both types, given their worldview described here; uncertainty was already covered above.

On that note, I am sure, you wouldn't imply that 8's don't have fear. It doesn't mean much to say that if 6's didn't have "fear", they wouldn't deny it. Who doesn't have fear? 8s have fears, and they are said to counter-phobically (as a general strategy as opposed to a manifestation of core fixation) move against fear. RH talk about 8's consciously taken on challenges to overcome their fears. If they fear heights, they may be interested in mountain climbing etc. 

The fact that any type has to deny X, means that X exists in their psyche. By that logic, if 8's didn't have vulnerability, they wouldn't have to deny it. The point is that they obviously have vulnerabilities and fears. 

I have already stated that 6's projection comes from the fixation of self-doubt, which arises from the passion of fear. For the nth time, the cp 6 has the self-image (this self image concept is an idealized image for every type) of strength. Let's not delude ourselves. This is like Enneagram 101. That doesn't however mean that projection is necessarily more central than denial for the CP 6. I said in my post that 8's project blame, whereas 6's project fear. Projection is a part of denial for both types. Here's what I said in my post:-



> If you want to talk about why exactly an 8 considers the world hard and unjust or why a 3 has the world-view that their worth will only be affirmed if they become a human doing, it can be just as easily argued as a form of projection of ones own unacceptable drives on to the external environment. Unconscious feelings of weakness (rejection triad) can be rightly seen as a *projection* on the external environment as being hard, difficult and oppositional in case of 8s. It confirms their view of the world being unjust so they can move against it. This is explained in more detail in my last coloured quote, as well as key differences. _6s project fear, and 8s project blame. _In either case, projection is a part of their defense.
> 
> In that sense, the DM of every single type has an element of projection. Cp 6s use projection to confirm their suspicion or mistrust or guardedness, however this does not negate the argument that they can use denial just like the 8 to maintain a self-image of strength in an environment perceived as unsupportive and hard. A DM arises in relation to an "idealized" self-image and an avoidance pattern. I am quoting O'Hanrahan here. A cp 6 can have the idealized image of strength and avoid vulnerability just like an 8. What is it to say that denial and projection can't both be attributed as defense, to different ends as I repeatedly said in the previous post where I connected this with the passions and fixations of each type, mechanisms for the type.


Though, the projection of fear itself is less central for 8 because it's a gut type that doesn't need to scan the environment for cues to confirm guardedness or suspicion to feel prepared in an environment perceived as uncertain. As for why blame is projected, I've partially covered that above and the rest in my segment on passions, fixations etc. in an earlier post. 

The the more pressing point is that I see denial as an equal contender with projection. I've already talked about idealization and rationalziation being attributed to 3, by Naranjo and another credible author I can't recall. So, it's possible for a type to have more than one DM. 



> CP6's do not project their unacceptable drives onto their environment. They project their passion of fear onto their environment. They, as we agree, have a positive or negative attitude about something as a result of fear. 8's do not "project lust" onto their environment, they simply are lustful to begin with, just as CP 6's are fearful to begin with.


This is inaccurate. Guilt is also projected by 6s, phobic and CP, in the form of accusations coming from others. This is where the denial (and subsequent projection of the same) of guilt to assuage the superego's chastisement comes into picture; besides for Cps, maintaining an image of being above "it" or being too strong to be affected by a softer emotion like guilt can also come into play despite being more sensitive to it by virtue of being a superego type. I have heard this "Denial of softer emotions and fear" point from more than one CP 6. So, CP 6s project more than just the passion of fear.N goes over it well. *

Another strawman:* I have nowhere claimed that 8s project lust. LOL. I said that 8s project blame, which again is common knowledge. 



> It doesn't negate that they "use" it (though I still disagree that they do personally) - however, it does negate that it is their primary defense mechanism.


I am not convinced, but agreeing to disagree would work just as well. 



> O'Hanrahan does not say that a DM "arises in relation to an idealized self image." He says that:


I'll quote him for you from my thread. Also,l I said it arises in relation to an idealized self-image and avoidance pattern. If a defense mechanism is part of the three-way structure that keeps personality in place (I quote), then of course, it's interconnected with the idealized self-image and avoidance pattern. 



> *Our defenses are organized into a cohesive system by three specific functions: the idealization pattern, the avoidance pattern and the defense mechanism.* They work together in a three-way arrangement to keep the structure of the personality in place. They are also the cornerstones of *each person's fixation* and it's hard to think clearly or feel our true feelings when these parts are active.





> *(3) The third element of this system is the defense mechanism, which supports the dichotomy between the idealization and the avoidance and keeps everything locked in place. The defense mechanism is the "enforcer."*


Here's what he said for 8s. 



> 8) *Eights* use *denial* [defense mechanism] to avoid vulnerability [avoidance pattern] and to maintain a self image of being strong [idealization pattern as per O'H's own definition above]. Denial means to power up in the body center and forcefully re-direct energy and attention through willfulness and control. Vulnerable feelings are automatically put away and not experienced. Emotional energy is reduced, while instinctual energy is increased. Receptivity necessarily involves some vulnerability, so Eights seek to impact the world and other people rather than be receptive to them.


To put it melodramatically, this is one lofl one of the 'leading' causes of mistyping between CP 6s and 8s. Numerous CP 6s use "denial" to "avoid vulnerability" (avoidance pattern plus cp 6s are known to have a strong aversion to being controlled and/or being fearful, and hence develop the self-image of strength). If you are trying to distinguish self-image from idealization, that's a moot point. He already says that the 8's self-image of strength is an "idealization" pattern. 

Cp 6s are known to be willful and can be more territorial and controlling than 8s, and this is also a large part of how they view themselves, even if the more mature ones would acknowledge they question themselves far more than 8s. Their self-image goes beyond simply assurance; strength may be a form of preparedness, but the self-image of the same is just as important given their world-view. How it differs from an 8 in motivations and trait structure has already been covered numerous times. Replace body centre with head centre for Cp 6s, and I bet ya, many CP 6s would relate and do. It's one of the things that got my wheels spinning when I made that thread a while back. Though, I have to add that I disagree with him on the vulnerable feelings are not experienced point. I'd say they are not experienced for the most part, as every individual, is at times, aware of their vulnerability.

@_Marlowe_'s post about denial, which I totally forgot to respond to, still stands out to me, where she said she related more to denial than any other DM. I think projection is a part of her defense structure as a 6, but that statement was thought provoking. Also, Marlowe, know that I am not trying to drag you into this disagreement. You don't have to respond at all. I am just using you as an example because your post still stands out to me and echoed the words of other cp 6s I have known, some for decades IRL. 




> I may disagree with O'Hanrahan about the self-image of the 6 being "loyal," and that this description may be more pertinent to Phobic 6's than CP. However, CP6's do not have a *self-image* of being "strong," they have a *self-idealization* of being "strong," and really, I would call it more "assured" than "strong." They think they must be assured to avoid their lack of certainty. And as O'Hanrahan says, the DM of any type is a way of maintaining the structural conflict between the self-idealization and the avoidance - so in this case, CP 6's use Projection in response to having a self-idealization of being "assured," in contrast with an avoidance of uncertainty. They project by, again, arming themselves in reaction to negative suspicions of the world around them, so they are guarded before they happen. This is NOT DENIAL of fear. If anything, it's to keep the fear within the operations of the type 6 inner structure.


Naah 

I've already said the *8's self- image of strength is an idealization, as well, as per O'Hanrahan himself*. SO you don't have a point of distinction there. 

I've also covered the association between CP 6s and a self-image of strength, willfulness and control, even if it stems from the passion of Fear and arises as a result of the Cp manifestation of doubt (fixation). Denial of fear can take place via counter-phobia for 6s when they are unaware they're acting from doubt in acting rashly or fearlessly (unconsciously) and when they recognize it and go against it anyway (consciously), as a core fixation, and 8s as a general strategy. 8s don't always deny fear unconsciously. Denial isn't entirely an unconscious process for either type. When RH talk of 8s confronting fears directly, that makes it clear they're aware of some of their fears. And, I am not talking solely about the denial of "fear" anyway. 8s deny more than just fear, just like cp 6s. I've discussed projection and fear earlier on in the post. So yes, denial of fear does happen with CP 6s.

Again:



> The 8 unconsciously denies it to maintain an image of strength and invulnerability in the service of expanding control over a conflictual and hard/difficult environment that instills "anger" (gut anger that moves against and expansively asserts control, to maintain a thick ego boundary in self protection against described environment;* its uncertainty (fear- the passion), hence related self-doubt* *(fixation), not being constituents of the core neurosis for 8)*. The 8's passion is Lust, which results in a powerful drive towards intensity, excesses, struggle and control. Lust is inverted envy, in a way, because it arises from feeling excluded from life. The associated feeling of "loss" a softer emotion is denied unconsciously to maintain an image of invulnerability. The same denial of softer emotions contributes to the fixation of vengeance, which is said to loosen once the 8 acknowledges their own vulnerability and ceases to see themselves as inherently separate (stops objectifiying others) as opposed to acknowledging the Oneness of essence and existence (Holy Truth). Cp 6s benefit from identifying denial and using that self-awareness to develop Holy Faith (by recognizing strength/will/grounding as naturally arising from Essence as opposed to being the missing piece), so to speak, and put down em blazin' guns.


Once again, you are assuming that CP 6s have a self-image of "assurance" to the exclusion of the self-image of strength. It has been stated numerous times, in Enneagram literature that the self-image of strength (whether it it stems from idealization or another source namely confidence) is a core trait of CP 6s. Self-image vs self-idealization or whatever you call it are not distinct concepts in the DM theory laid out above, as I said. Projection (of fear and also guilt, though more fear where strength is concerned) and denial play into the self-image of strength. Projection is key to the 6's security seeking drive, and I would argue that denial of fear and vulnerability just as well contributes to this for CP 6s, even if they are, compared to an 8, more aware of anxiety thanks to their attentional pattern of tuning into inconsistencies and subtle threats. " I am secure if I am strong" is a sentiment many Cp 6s have shared on the forums. The more mature ones would accept doubt for it is, and employ the virtue of courage in transforming it into Will. ​


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

^There is a glitch causing lots of wonky editing, like posts disappearing. I have told tb about it.


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## Coburn (Sep 3, 2010)

@Figure @Cosmic Orgasm

Here is a link to my post: http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...anisms-idealization-avoidance-patterns-3.html

For what it's worth, I wrote that almost two years ago. Two years ago was a very different me at a very different point in life. Most of what I wrote is only distantly applicable; my outlook on life and my relationships with people-- and how I deal with emotional hardship-- has changed. 

I wouldn't take it as evidence of much of anything other than a sign that people are not static beings.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Marlowe said:


> Here is a link to my post: http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...anisms-idealization-avoidance-patterns-3.html
> 
> For what it's worth, I wrote that almost two years ago. Two years ago was a very different me at a very different point in life. Most of what I wrote is only distantly applicable; my outlook on life and my relationships with people-- and how I deal with emotional hardship-- has changed.
> 
> I wouldn't take it as evidence of much of anything other than a sign that people are not static beings.


Indeed people aren't static. 
Just FYI, I wasn't singling out an isolated post as decisive proof or sufficient evidence. It was only an example, and I have a long memory.  I have heard the denial point from CP 6s on and off the forum, the latter in most cases, since not too many threads have been started on this subject here. Though, at least one more Cp Six rated projection lower than another DM. 

If you are up for it, I'd be curious to know if your idealization pattern (strength, self-reliance, emotional invulnerability), avoidance pattern (weakness) and defense mechanisms that you seemed to emphasize a lot and even followed up with me a few times (denial) has changed since. I am paraphrasing your linked post. 

On your recent typing discussion, you said you didn't relate to projection as much for a core defense mechanism. Has that changed since? It's possible that you, personally, now, to the best of your knowledge, think you employ projection more than denial, as an overarching pattern in your life. If so, how does projection play into your idealization of strength and self-reliance as well as avoidance of weakness and dependency, _especially relative to denial_? If your avoidance and idealization patterns have changed, to the best of your current knowledge, as well, that's fine. I'd be interested in hearing you describe them as they are today.


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## Coburn (Sep 3, 2010)

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Indeed people aren't static.
> Just FYI, I wasn't singling out an isolated post as decisive proof or sufficient evidence. It was only an example, and I have a long memory.  I have heard the denial point from CP 6s on and off the forum, the latter in most cases, since not too many threads have been started on this subject here. Though, at least one more Cp Six rated projection lower than another DM.
> 
> If you are up for it, I'd be curious to know if your idealization pattern (strength, self-reliance, emotional invulnerability), avoidance pattern (weakness) and defense mechanisms that you seemed to emphasize a lot and even followed up with me a few times (denial) has changed since. I am paraphrasing your linked post.
> ...


Still a firm no on the projection. 

I've looked up all the Freudian defense mechanisms; I think a better description of what I meant by denial is thought suppression. Which can be a form of denial if the problem is perpetually ignored. Generally speaking, I use thought suppression as a means of distancing myself from overwhelming emotional pain until it has receded to tolerable amounts. 

My damn Fi is sometimes too much for me to handle.

Once I've put enough space between me and the problem, I approach it from a rational, problem-to-be-solved manner. Which is probably along the lines of intellectualization? I don't think it's as stupid as intellectualization, since I'm not avoiding the problem, rather trying to solve it than get caught up on the emotional hangups that accompany it. 

Anyways, I mentally approach the problem, form an appropriate solution, and then seek to implement it.

(sorry for taking this thread off on a tangent. you can all get back to what you were saying.)


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

In so much as a type is a representation, a pattern so to speak surrounding one's experience of deficit (which may not manifest as what one calls a commonplace sense of deficit..and tends to be referred to as loss of contact with Being), the defense mechanism relations drawn in the literature seem to simply be getting at psychological means of coping characteristic of these patterns' manifestation in nature - the parallel would appear to be that the means of sustenance of a psychological ego without collapse shows clues as to aforementioned "pattern". Could be wrong since I don't know much about Ichazo's types, but I don't think he cites the same defense mechanisms consistently as Naranjo does, although he might also endorse a somewhat modified view of the types at the core as well (which again, due to lack of information found, I'm unaware of specifics of). Anyway, basically what I mean by bringing that up is that the question of how much relation a DM has to a type hinges somewhat on what one sees the type as fundamentally, how one would define the type if asked. Conceivably, some such answers would essentially not exist without reference, at least implicit, to the DM, but not all.

The patterns themselves can be quite general, but if they are not defined with some consistency and solidity, the result is that someone exhibiting the same pattern on some core level, but apparently exhibiting two different mechanisms, may just be typed as different things by different people (and one can imagine many similar issues). This "problem" is of course hypothetical and exists or not depending on how one defines the types.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

bearotter said:


> In so much as a type is a representation, a pattern so to speak surrounding one's experience of deficit (which may not manifest as what one calls a commonplace sense of deficit..and tends to be referred to as loss of contact with Being), the defense mechanism relations drawn in the literature seem to simply be getting at psychological means of coping characteristic of these patterns' manifestation in nature - the parallel would appear to be that the means of sustenance of a psychological ego without collapse shows clues as to aforementioned "pattern". Could be wrong since I don't know much about Ichazo's types, but I don't think he cites the same defense mechanisms consistently as Naranjo does, although he might also endorse a somewhat modified view of the types at the core as well (which again, due to lack of information found, I'm unaware of specifics of). Anyway, basically what I mean by bringing that up is that the question of how much relation a DM has to a type hinges somewhat on what one sees the type as fundamentally, how one would define the type if asked. Conceivably, some such answers would essentially not exist without reference, at least implicit, to the DM, but not all.
> 
> The patterns themselves can be quite general, but if they are not defined with some consistency and solidity, the result is that someone exhibiting the same pattern on some core level, but apparently exhibiting two different mechanisms, may just be typed as different things by different people (and one can imagine many similar issues). This "problem" is of course hypothetical and exists or not depending on how one defines the types.


Well, I don't even think it comes down to one defense mechanism, unhealthy coping strategy, persona or (personality) disorder (episode, relapse, etc.), depending on health level.

For instance, Fantasizing is the fixation of Four, but it's aside from being a DM itself, a complex, with other DMs as idealization, introjection, projective identification (e.g. savior), magical thinking, and alltogether sort of a dissociative coping pattern. Identification with suffering and defeatism can become so strong to the point of self-sabotage, when life is threatened by satisfaction or fear of success. (Naranjo refers to borderline personality, or self-defeating personality)


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@_mimesis_ yeah thanks for the example.. definitely illustrates how many DM can naturally correspond to the same general pattern of fixation (which we can certainly call/attribute to/define as a complex).


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## Asd456 (Jul 25, 2017)

Figure said:


> CP 6 and 6 share the passion of Fear. 8 has the passion of Lust. Phobic 6's do not claim to "deny" fear, but CP6's do. If a DM has something to do with passion and CP6 and 6 share the same passion, why wouldn't Phobic 6's also deny fear?
> 
> Because CP6's would not have to deny fear if they didn't have the fear to begin with. And the fear, as it does for Phobic 6's, comes from Projecting attitudes about the world around them. In other words, the "denial" would cease to exist without their fear that comes from Projection. Projection is therefore more central to their inner architecture than Denial is.
> 
> ...


Apologies for digging up an ancient thread, but this was incredibly fascinating to read and thought I'd share some thoughts as a 6w5 Sx/Sp, ENTJ. I'll try to keep it short.

*CP 6 and 6 share the passion of Fear. 8 has the passion of Lust. Phobic 6's do not claim to "deny" fear, but CP6's do. If a DM has something to do with passion and CP6 and 6 share the same passion, why wouldn't Phobic 6's also deny fear? 

Because CP6's would not have to deny fear if they didn't have the fear to begin with. And the fear, as it does for Phobic 6's, comes from Projecting attitudes about the world around them. In other words, the "denial" would cease to exist without their fear that comes from Projection. Projection is therefore more central to their inner architecture than Denial is. *

I think what's missing here is anger. I am more conscious of my own anger and aggression, therefore I try to suppress it in general. In contrast, fear is a feeling more alien to me as in it motivates me, unconsciously. Therefore, we're not even aware that we're denying fear as we are more fixated on the anger, and the denial of vulnerability. Yes, emotional vulnerability is something I work hard to combat. Personally, I hate displaying weakness in general and projecting an image of strength is my #1 fixation. Perhaps the reason we "deny fear" is because we are simply not conscious of it; instead, the image of strength in order to combat vulnerability (to combat fear) drives us more. Further, I am just now noticing my own projection and fear as I learn more about the enneagram (specifically stacking and subtype).

*CP6's do not project their unacceptable drives onto their environment. They project their passion of fear onto their environment. They, as we agree, have a positive or negative attitude about something as a result of fear. 8's do not "project lust" onto their environment, they simply are lustful to begin with, just as CP 6's are fearful to begin with. 
*

I have to highlight for me personally my first reaction in life is an awareness/connection to my anger/desire for strength - I am motivated by it and the fear is more unconscious. The anger/strength is possibly motivated by fear. I want to emphasize that is my automatic response.

*However, CP6's do not have a self-image of being "strong," they have a self-idealization of being "strong," and really, I would call it more "assured" than "strong." They think they must be assured to avoid their lack of certainty. *

I disagree. Sure, assurance is important, but it is not my primary fixation. My primary fixation is projecting strength; in fact, people tell me I intimidate them (I'm sure you're aware this is common for ENTJs). I do have a self-image of being strong. It is only recently I'm noticing this is not productive. 

*This is NOT DENIAL of fear. If anything, it's to keep the fear within the operations of the type 6 inner structure. *

Again, I want to highlight that we are unconscious of our fear. Second, denial of vulnerability I have to fully agree and the connection to anger as a Sx 6.


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