# Can Se PoLR types be strong willed and persistent



## clay (Nov 9, 2012)

I suppose Se POLR for me would be trying to convince someone to do something and utterly failing. I remember a few times in my life someone would ask me what they should do and even if I knew what was best for them I usually couldn't get them to do it. It probably stems from not being forceful enough with my approach; I just don't have the social tact. I can tell them the facts, why I think it's a good idea, and how it will benefit them, but it seems what would be good enough to convince me to do something is ineffective on other people.

Another aspect of Se POLR is my lack of competitiveness. Sure, I do like winning, but it's not the end of the world if I lose. I have a few friends that are Se valuing and when it comes to video games, even if it's mario kart, they take it 100% serious all the time. When I beat them it’s not so much that I enjoy winning, but I like watching them lose because they care so much (is that bad lol?). The only time I take anything competitive as seriously as them is when money is involved. Now all of a sudden I’m motivated to win. I wonder what money has to do with it? Maybe the impact of suffering an actual loss?


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

clay said:


> When I beat them it’s not so much that I enjoy winning, but I like watching them lose because they care so much (is that bad lol?).


Not at all.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

clay said:


> Another aspect of Se POLR is my lack of competitiveness. Sure, I do like winning, but it's not the end of the world if I lose. I have a few friends that are Se valuing and when it comes to video games, even if it's mario kart, they take it 100% serious all the time.


lol, yeah, I relate a lot to this. It doesn't matter what it is but when it comes to competition, any form of competition unless I know I am utterly terrible beyond bad at whatever it is, I will try to win. I don't have to win, but try? Yes. Not even sure why it's important more than the thrill of action itself it provides. Like it's exciting or whatever.

As an aside to this discussion though perhaps still illuminating in its own way, I have been playing this phone game for some months now called Rage of Bahamut that kind of functions a bit like an MMO where you can join an order that's the same as a guild. So I joined this order that was fairly new, and we just recently had an order discussion about the focus and goal of the order (that sounds fairly Se in itself I guess lol) where the goal was to weed out players who did not share the leader's goal that I am fairly sure is an Se ego type, though I can't tell if LSI or ESI. Essentially, what happened was that I messaged her a bit before Christmas that I was considering leaving because I play to win and compete, that's where the fun is to me, and it alerted her to the fact she wants that too but since no one else had complained she assumed she was the only one and should just suck it up (I guess that does sound more Fe-ish). 

Anyway, I find it very reassuring that we both share goals and motivations in the game. I am actually quite fond of her even though I suspect she's more likely beta than gamma, though her need for rules to enforce people's actions put me off for a while (hence I suspect rational base). But yeah, we both have that competitive drive in common. 

I assume that an Se PoLR type would feel quite uncomfortable being in our order, especially the way it is now after it was structured a bit more and a lot of players were weeded out. It's very Se in its foundation. 

I think one can find this as an underlying logic in most larger groups and organizations and it wouldn't surprise me at all that the older it gets, the more likely people of the same quadra will stick eventually. Like I was in this chat for another order for a while because I was potentially joining them, and what struck me was how Fe the socialization process was. People even called the order "family".


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## zinnia (Jul 22, 2013)

About competitiveness... I'm actually pretty competitive but it's still mostly in my head. I will try to get the highest grade or be the one finished with work first, I turn even small things into competitions, like chopping up the green pepper in record time. Maybe that's a 3 thing...? Though I remember things like a friend of mine wanting to be the best in some game or another, looking at videos online and that always seemed like too much effort even though I found it interesting. I would drop it as soon as I realized it wouldn't come easy. Guess that answers the part about persistence.

Question - does anyone think the following sounds like Se PoLR? I have a problem with anything that requires quick reaction time and a good sense of what is happening here and now. This includes driving, sports, using a microwave, fireworks, and yes, can openers. I always find myself excessively planning ahead of time because it's the only way I can deal with things like that. @[email protected]


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

zinnia said:


> About competitiveness... I'm actually pretty competitive but it's still mostly in my head. I will try to get the highest grade or be the one finished with work first, I turn even small things into competitions, like chopping up the green pepper in record time. Maybe that's a 3 thing...? Though I remember things like a friend of mine wanting to be the best in some game or another, looking at videos online and that always seemed like too much effort even though I found it interesting. I would drop it as soon as I realized it wouldn't come easy. Guess that answers the part about persistence.


Well I do both of that. When I get very involved into something I end up researching whatever it is so I have a good foundation of how to proceed from there, so I can ensure that I'll reach whatever level of competence I find desirable. Though in your case, what you describe here honestly sounds more Te than Se. I think Te can also provide a bit of a competitive edge. 



> Question - does anyone think the following sounds like Se PoLR? I have a problem with anything that requires quick reaction time and a good sense of what is happening here and now. This includes driving, sports, using a microwave, fireworks, and yes, can openers. I always find myself excessively planning ahead of time because it's the only way I can deal with things like that. @[email protected]


lol, I am like this too. It just sounds like poor sensation in general.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Yes they can in a way, but in a way not so much.
When I go all Se on them they buckle very easily.
Then I kinda feel like a jerk, and wonder if I was to harsh with them. :-/


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

hornet said:


> Yes they can in a way, but in a way not so much.
> When I go all Se on them they buckle very easily.
> Then I kinda feel like a jerk, and wonder if I was to harsh with them. :-/


Haha, I guess that's the difference to us with Se base/suggestive in that pushing people around at some level feels satisfying, though only if they kind of stand back up to you. The pushing aspect is desirable. Right, @Amaterasu?


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

ephemereality said:


> Haha, I guess that's the difference to us with Se base/suggestive in that pushing people around at some level feels satisfying, though only if they kind of stand back up to you. The pushing aspect is desirable. Right, @_Amaterasu_?


Yeah I don't feel like a jerk if my ENFj sister is to be pushed or my ISTj father.
Even my ISFp mother can handle it.
I guess I just see the impact on them so clearly and realize how big a deal it was to them.
Pushing is desirable and I generally like to do it, but there is competing among equals,
and then you have a 3 year old that you could beat up with one finger.
I don't like to pull people down so they can't get up again.


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## zinnia (Jul 22, 2013)

hornet said:


> Yeah I don't feel like a jerk if my ENFj sister is to be pushed or my ISTj father.
> Even my ISFp mother can handle it.
> I guess I just see the impact on them so clearly and realize how big a deal it was to them.
> Pushing is desirable and I generally like to do it, but there is competing among equals,
> ...


What sort of things do you actually do (what does "pushing people" mean to you?) and how have you noticed the Se PoLR types reacting?


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

zinnia said:


> Question - does anyone think the following sounds like Se PoLR? I have a problem with anything that requires quick reaction time and a good sense of what is happening here and now. This includes driving, sports, using a microwave, fireworks, and yes, can openers. I always find myself excessively planning ahead of time because it's the only way I can deal with things like that. @[email protected]


I have those problems as well, so I don't think that it's related to Se PoLR. In fact I haven't been motivated to get a driver license even if I was forced to do some classes thanks to my mom, because I have coordination problems, so I think that I can cause an accident thanks to my crappy sensation.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

zinnia said:


> What sort of things do you actually do (what does "pushing people" mean to you?) and how have you noticed the Se PoLR types reacting?


Pushing to me is mentally standing your ground in a conflict.
Physically being there and projecting your will assertively in their direction.
It can include raising of voice, it certainly includes challenging body language.
On the verbal level it is calling a spade a spade.
You don't dick around being all indirect, but call things as you see it.
You are ready to deal deal with a physical escalation if need be.

Se PoLR gets all huffy and insecure when you get that direct.
You see them kinda squirm under your gaze and seem perplexed that reality is forced upon them so directly.
Usually I say my view and they immediatly apologize with a version of "I didn't know that you viewed/felt it like that."
It is usually about some snarky Ne comment that made me annoyed with them.

They are real strong willed, 
when it comes to big issues that don't concern us in any tangible way here and now.
So they get their way with anything that isn't about us, 
and I get my way with what is typically.
You feel you are taking advantage of them, 
but generally they are happy as long as you don't mess with their Ne.


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## kitsu (Feb 13, 2013)

Nevermind


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## kitsu (Feb 13, 2013)

hornet said:


> Pushing to me is mentally standing your ground in a conflict.
> Physically being there and projecting your will assertively in their direction.
> It can include raising of voice, it certainly includes challenging body language.
> On the verbal level it is calling a spade a spade.
> ...


What do you call a snarky Ne comment?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Hurricane said:


> What do you call a snarky Ne comment?


At first I thought you wrote Ni snark. I'm disappointed now. So so disappointed.


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## kitsu (Feb 13, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> At first I thought you wrote Ni snark. I'm disappointed now. So so disappointed.


Well now I'm curious, what would you call Ni snark? How would it differ from Ne snark?

What _is _snark anyways?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Hurricane said:


> Well now I'm curious, what would you call Ni snark? How would it differ from Ne snark?


My previous post is ironically self-contained. 



> What _is _snark anyways?


Good question. I would consider snark somewhat like sarcasm but not necessarily with the negative intent sarcasm suggests. This is what the Urban Dictionary says:

*1. snark*
noun 
Combination of "snide" and "remark". Sarcastic comment(s). 
Also snarky (adj.) and snarkily (adv.)
_His commentary was rife with snark. 
"Your boundless ineptitude is astounding," she snarkily declared._


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Hurricane said:


> What do you call a snarky Ne comment?


Eh well hard to explain.
Guess that is how Ne banter.

American Dad seem to be filled with stuff like that.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

hornet said:


> Eh well hard to explain.
> Guess that is how Ne banter.
> 
> American Dad seem to be filled with stuff like that.


Wow, that's... ok, it's kind of amusing.

But I doubt I would enjoy a whole show like that. Unless it was really late at night.


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## zinnia (Jul 22, 2013)

hornet said:


> Se PoLR gets all huffy and insecure when you get that direct.
> You see them kinda squirm under your gaze and seem perplexed that reality is forced upon them so directly.
> Usually I say my view and they immediatly apologize with a version of "I didn't know that you viewed/felt it like that."
> It is usually about some snarky Ne comment that made me annoyed with them.


I see. Have you ever found that it changes with environment? I mean, I certainly see myself being quite passive with people I do not know well or at work, but when it comes to family I am almost always the one who has to step up and call people out on their shit. I'm usually not bothered when it gets a little bit intense, shouting, etc. My ESI mother and I have some pretty serious confrontations sometimes but my LSE dad and Alpha quadra brother (SEI? LII?) would almost run away when she would start to get serious. It pissed me off when they did that. (To this day my brother is always going on about my mom being sooo touchy and bitchy etc and I will call him out on it for being too sensitive. Then he'll tell me I am bitchy too, oh well, doesn't really matter to me that much.)

Also ew American Dad uuughhh. I used to like Family Guy but I never got into that one. My father loves all of it though and my mother absolutely hates it.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

zinnia said:


> I see. Have you ever found that it changes with environment? I mean, I certainly see myself being quite passive with people I do not know well or at work, but when it comes to family I am almost always the one who has to step up and call people out on their shit. I'm usually not bothered when it gets a little bit intense, shouting, etc. My ESI mother and I have some pretty serious confrontations sometimes but my LSE dad and Alpha quadra brother (SEI? LII?) would almost run away when she would start to get serious. It pissed me off when they did that. (To this day my brother is always going on about my mom being sooo touchy and bitchy etc and I will call him out on it for being too sensitive. Then he'll tell me I am bitchy too, oh well, doesn't really matter to me that much.)
> 
> Also ew American Dad uuughhh. I used to like Family Guy but I never got into that one. My father loves all of it though and my mother absolutely hates it.


Well my enneagram kinda decides how much I involve myself.
I need to lean on my 8 wing to push.
My 9 core likes to preted there is no issue.
I don't find that strangers get any special treatment.
If I'm balanced enough to push, I'll push anyone anywhere.

Yes it is eww. 
Familiy guy I havn't watched.


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## Kanerou (Oct 8, 2009)

zinnia said:


> Also ew American Dad uuughhh. I used to like Family Guy but I never got into that one. My father loves all of it though and my mother absolutely hates it.


My little brother, who enjoys the heck out of Family Guy, has informed me that American Dad is a ripoff and highly inferior (my phrasing, not his). I doubt I'll ever get into either myself; FG has funny moments, but I've avoided it until now and will probably continue to do so. *is stubborn like that*


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## zinnia (Jul 22, 2013)

Blue Flare said:


> I have those problems as well, so I don't think that it's related to Se PoLR. In fact I haven't been motivated to get a driver license even if I was forced to do some classes thanks to my mom, because I have coordination problems, so I think that I can cause an accident thanks to my crappy sensation.


I'm currently in the process of getting my license now but I have been putting it off for years and years. I was 16 or 17 when I tried driving for the first time and I went 30 mph and hit a curb, freaked out and never tried again. It's actually really embarrassing <_<;; I'm convinced I am going to be a terrible driver but I need to learn for work now. I feel sorry for everyone on the road...



hornet said:


> Well my enneagram kinda decides how much I involve myself.
> I need to lean on my 8 wing to push.
> My 9 core likes to preted there is no issue.
> I don't find that strangers get any special treatment.
> If I'm balanced enough to push, I'll push anyone anywhere.


Yeah, I thought with my family it could be an enneagram thing. My brother and dad are very 9. I've actually been wondering about how e-type can affect socionics type... like how would a really strong sp instinct Si-polr be like, or can a 9 think they are Se polr... So much about MBTI versus Socionics but I think that's pretty important to throw into the mix too.



Kanerou said:


> My little brother, who enjoys the heck out of Family Guy, has informed me that American Dad is a ripoff and highly inferior (my phrasing, not his). I doubt I'll ever get into either myself; FG has funny moments, but I've avoided it until now and will probably continue to do so. *is stubborn like that*


Ah, okay, so it isn't just me. I thought maybe it was because I had gotten over Family Guy or something... seems to me the novelty wore off quickly. Okay more random blood, violence, ha ha, sex joke... someone being dumb hurr hurr hurr. Eh, you're really not missing much lol.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

zinnia said:


> Yeah, I thought with my family it could be an enneagram thing. My brother and dad are very 9. I've actually been wondering about how e-type can affect socionics type... like how would a really strong sp instinct Si-polr be like, or can a 9 think they are Se polr... So much about MBTI versus Socionics but I think that's pretty important to throw into the mix too.


Socionics and MBTI are trying to describe the same thing from two different POV.
Enneagrams POV are for the most part seperate, but if you read enough of Jung
you will see that he covers the same issues from his POV.
MBTI and Socionics where spawned from just one of many books Jung wrote.
Psychological types is a very valuable book, but it is in no way the end all be all.

Things will never fit completely until you adjust it to your own POV.
MBTI is from a Delta frame and Socionics from an Alpha frame. Jung had a Beta frame. *IMO.*
Not knowing what frames different theories have can cause a lot of confusion trying to figure things out.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

hornet said:


> Things will never fit completely until you adjust it to your own POV.
> MBTI is from a Delta frame and Socionics from an Alpha frame. Jung had a Beta frame. *IMO.*
> Not knowing what frames different theories have can cause a lot of confusion trying to figure things out.


Hmm, I've seen speculation that Myers Briggs was an ESFJ. I could see how MBTI fits Delta, though.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

zinnia said:


> I'm currently in the process of getting my license now but I have been putting it off for years and years. I was 16 or 17 when I tried driving for the first time and I went 30 mph and hit a curb, freaked out and never tried again. It's actually really embarrassing <_<;; I'm convinced I am going to be a terrible driver but I need to learn for work now. I feel sorry for everyone on the road...


Lol. When I was younger I often dreamt about driving into things, over things... <_> I too think it's good I don't have a license though I see why it would be practical. 



> Yeah, I thought with my family it could be an enneagram thing. My brother and dad are very 9. I've actually been wondering about how e-type can affect socionics type... like how would a really strong sp instinct Si-polr be like, or can a 9 think they are Se polr... So much about MBTI versus Socionics but I think that's pretty important to throw into the mix too.


Yeah, same with my dad. And despite being an Se type I'm for example quite conflict-avoidant IRL, not so much that conflict scares me or such, but since I'm a core withdrawn type I often felt it difficult to express myself in conflict. I also think suggestive or inferior Se played a role in a sense that feeling incompetent in the area just made me rather not do it at all, for the same reason someone with suggestive Fe would not try to Fe IRL even though they want to. It's just a sense of extremely lacking skill, that it will just come across awkward. 



> Ah, okay, so it isn't just me. I thought maybe it was because I had gotten over Family Guy or something... seems to me the novelty wore off quickly. Okay more random blood, violence, ha ha, sex joke... someone being dumb hurr hurr hurr. Eh, you're really not missing much lol.


I still think Family Guy can be funny but yeah, it's a bit too much. American Dad I absolutely hated.


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## Kanerou (Oct 8, 2009)

Nonsense said:


> Hmm, I've seen speculation that Myers Briggs was an ESFJ. I could see how MBTI fits Delta, though.


Isabel Myers, Katherine Briggs. Two people.


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## zinnia (Jul 22, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> Lol. When I was younger I often dreamt about driving into things, over things... <_> I too think it's good I don't have a license though I see why it would be practical.


I am a fan of that <_> emoticon. It's absolutely perfect to describe my feelings toward driving. Of course, the irony is that in the end, I may actually be a good driver because I will be so extremely mentally focused out of my fear... but it will always be stressful. My mom loves driving - she says it clears her mind and that will never be the case for me.



> Yeah, same with my dad. And despite being an Se type I'm for example quite conflict-avoidant IRL, not so much that conflict scares me or such, but since I'm a core withdrawn type I often felt it difficult to express myself in conflict. I also think suggestive or inferior Se played a role in a sense that feeling incompetent in the area just made me rather not do it at all, for the same reason someone with suggestive Fe would not try to Fe IRL even though they want to. It's just a sense of extremely lacking skill, that it will just come across awkward.


That makes sense. I guess I see that difficulty in expression with my dad and brother, who will end up shutting down, sort of.

For the life of me I cannot do conflict with strangers, like even arguing with a customer service rep to let me talk to their supervisor, but I have no problem with people I know. Maybe 6 p/cp for me. 

I think I initially thought I was Si-base thanks to being very very sp and I am wondering how far that has warped my self-perception with regard to Si.



hornet said:


> Socionics and MBTI are trying to describe the same thing from two different POV.
> Enneagrams POV are for the most part seperate, but if you read enough of Jung
> you will see that he covers the same issues from his POV.
> MBTI and Socionics where spawned from just one of many books Jung wrote.
> ...


Yeah... I'm of the opinion everyone is trying to explain the same phenomenon but in different ways. (So Myers: Fi-Ne, Socionics: ILE?, Jung: IEI?)

Too bad that there isn't gamma representation... isn't one of the main writers involved in Socionics an ESI, though?


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## Kanerou (Oct 8, 2009)

zinnia said:


> Too bad that there isn't gamma representation... isn't one of the main writers involved in Socionics an ESI, though?


I believe Stratievskaya, the writer behind the long-ass descriptions, is ESI. Filatova, another profile writer, is EII.


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

zinnia said:


> Yeah, I thought with my family it could be an enneagram thing. My brother and dad are very 9. I've actually been wondering about how e-type can affect socionics type... like how would a really strong sp instinct Si-polr be like, or can a 9 think they are Se polr... So much about MBTI versus Socionics but I think that's pretty important to throw into the mix too.


Yeah that can affect how you deal with problems. Well, when I was still a kid I had lots of issues with my classmates thanks to bullying, and my inferior Se didn't help at all, so I was pretty much helpless during years, specially as the teachers did nothing for stopping that crap. I think I devoted myself to my studies because it was the only thing that I could do well and thanks to my mother's pressure so I ended complying to that, but that made things worse because my classmates continued being a bunch of jerks as I was that fucking nerd that was damn easy to bully because I didn't know how to fight back (probably made worse because I repress my anger), and while I had to deal with sports it was a good chance for being made fun of, because I suck at that. Those school years were terrible, and that only ended when I was changed to other school, where at least nobody annoyed me. I think that I didn't quit school because I was a compliant doormat.

Now I can at least be more assertive, to the point that some people IRL could think that I'm too stubborn or narrow minded, and while I don't bother with others if they don't mess with me, if those people push my buttons or I notice something that annoys me, then I can react badly. Besides if someone tries to be abusive I will also defend myself, like when some people tries to force me to do more work than other classmates. 

I've also had some problems with other relatives as well, so I think I can be rather confrontational in some circumstances. I've also tried to be less influenced by my superego, as it caused great part of my problems.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

zinnia said:


> Yeah... I'm of the opinion everyone is trying to explain the same phenomenon but in different ways. (So Myers: Fi-Ne, Socionics: ILE?, Jung: IEI?)
> 
> Too bad that there isn't gamma representation... isn't one of the main writers involved in Socionics an ESI, though?


Yeah dunno about the types who writes socionics.

As for Jung he said that he was an introverted thinker and intuition second.
Now that would suggest LII and Alpha.
But he then said I was never interested in the reality of things.
Leading one to wonder if he in fact referred to intuition in an introverted sense as well.
Then he would be LSI.
Now be that as it may, Jung has been typed most often as LII, LSI and IEI.
Personally I find IEI hard to swallow given Jungs clear statement that he was an introverted thinking dominant.
Question really is if he is Alpha or Beta. LII or LSI.
I can see the case for LII too, something to consider.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Blue Flare said:


> Yeah that can affect how you deal with problems. Well, when I was still a kid I had lots of issues with my classmates thanks to bullying, and my inferior Se didn't help at all, so I was pretty much helpless during years, specially as the teachers did nothing for stopping that crap. I think I devoted myself to my studies because it was the only thing that I could do well and thanks to my mother's pressure so I ended complying to that, but that made things worse because my classmates continued being a bunch of jerks as I was that fucking nerd that was damn easy to bully because I didn't know how to fight back (probably made worse because I repress my anger), and while I had to deal with sports it was a good chance for being made fun of, because I suck at that. Those school years were terrible, and that only ended when I was changed to other school, where at least nobody annoyed me. I think that I didn't quit school because I was a compliant doormat.


Hmm, it's interesting how different people deal with problems. When I was picked on a lot I ended up skipping school. Which really wasn't the smartest idea in hindsight. Well, I would try to stand up for myself a few times, but that didn't help much. And they were really in my face about it, so it was hard to just ignore it. I could have tried harder, though.


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## zinnia (Jul 22, 2013)

Nonsense said:


> Hmm, it's interesting how different people deal with problems. When I was picked on a lot I ended up skipping school. Which really wasn't the smartest idea in hindsight. Well, I would try to stand up for myself a few times, but that didn't help much. And they were really in my face about it, so it was hard to just ignore it. I could have tried harder, though.


I do think it is interesting reading about others' reactions and ways of dealing with things. I guess my story is similar to Blue Flare's: I retreated back into my little world, books (mostly fiction, but academic stuff for school as well) but because of that I even got made fun of by teachers. Seriously, teachers - 20 years my senior - would try to one-up me and gang up against me with the rest of the class. Really, really bizarre stuff, looking back. Even recently I've noticed teachers/mentors making comments to me like, oh I would have hated you if I was your classmate. ...What.

Of course, way back when, it stopped in 7th grade or so when I punched back someone who was bullying me. Then I got another classmate suspended for two days because I took her up on a dare... everyone was friendly with me after that. P:


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

zinnia said:


> I do think it is interesting reading about others' reactions and ways of dealing with things. I guess my story is similar to Blue Flare's: I retreated back into my little world, books (mostly fiction, but academic stuff for school as well) but because of that I even got made fun of by teachers. Seriously, teachers - 20 years my senior - would try to one-up me and gang up against me with the rest of the class. Really, really bizarre stuff, looking back. Even recently I've noticed teachers/mentors making comments to me like, oh I would have hated you if I was your classmate. ...What.
> 
> Of course, way back when, it stopped in 7th grade or so when I punched back someone who was bullying me. Then I got another classmate suspended for two days because I took her up on a dare... everyone was friendly with me after that. P:


What, your teachers made fun of you?  Actually, that doesn't surprise me much... Although my own teachers were pretty nice from what I remember. I got along better with them than my classmates, but maybe they were just nice to me out of sympathy or because of their job or whatever. Back then I didn't think about that, though. I rarely did my homework too, because it was confusing and I had a hard time giving a shit about that when I was feeling miserable. orz So instead I ended up drawing during classes and when I got home I would spend my day reading fanfiction or whatever.


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## zinnia (Jul 22, 2013)

Nonsense said:


> What, your teachers made fun of you?  Actually, that doesn't surprise me much... Although my own teachers were pretty nice from what I remember. I got along better with them than my classmates, but maybe they were just nice to me out of sympathy or because of their job or whatever. Back then I didn't think about that, though. I rarely did my homework too, because it was confusing and I had a hard time giving a shit about that when I was feeling miserable. orz So instead I ended up drawing during classes and when I got home I would spend my day reading fanfiction or whatever.


They never made fun of me outright, like "HAHA PIZZA FACE"... but I remember one teacher saying to the rest of the class (this was back when I wore black every day, sat by myself in the corner, I was depressed and isolated) to always look out for the quiet ones, because one day they will come in and shoot people. She looked right at me, and so did the rest of the class. I remember thinking... yes, that's right, the best way to treat those kids who are by themselves and wear the same clothes every day is to ridicule them, not to, you know, talk to them and ask them how they are doing. Smart.

Yeah, I went through a phase of not doing homework and not applying myself in school but I still made good grades... I don't want to sound ungrateful but that actually made things worse, because nobody caught on there was anything wrong since I was still doing well academically.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

zinnia said:


> They never made fun of me outright, like "HAHA PIZZA FACE"... but I remember one teacher saying to the rest of the class (this was back when I wore black every day, sat by myself in the corner, I was depressed and isolated) to always look out for the quiet ones, because one day they will come in and shoot people. She looked right at me, and so did the rest of the class. I remember thinking... yes, that's right, the best way to treat those kids who are by themselves and wear the same clothes every day is to ridicule them, not to, you know, talk to them and ask them how they are doing. Smart.
> 
> Yeah, I went through a phase of not doing homework and not applying myself in school but I still made good grades... I don't want to sound ungrateful but that actually made things worse, because nobody caught on there was anything wrong since I was still doing well academically.


Those teachers are the ones who deserve to be shoot first IMO, if there is shooting to be done.
But meh, probably just thinking that traits magically manifests into reality.
Context is meaningless. 
Let us all work a little harder to create the very monster we fear.
The irony is that their sense of reality doesn't allow for them to understand the consequence of their actions.
You could sit them down and explain it in detail to them and they would protest their innocence.
Cause the guilt lie not with them the wielder of authority, but with the element that don't fit in.

Their envisioned solution probably went as deep as a wardrobe change and faking liking everyone.
Ie _*being social*_. Social meaning fitting in no matter the price.
It isn't about how many you actually connect with, 
but more about the group feeling that everyone is on the same page.
If not you are a threat and should be "run out of the village".
That we somehow should have put that way of dealing with each other behind us, 
is just an illusionary ideal. 

We only pretend to be civilized.
In fact we are far from it, somehow many people think civil means arranging the silverware properly.
Treating others with respect is far from it.
From what I've read from Jung humanity can't really let go of our primitive past.
We can in bits and pieces, but the irony is that a totally civilized society would be one of total inaction.
A purely subjective world where none disturbed each others inner world.
Imagine the whole of humanity on one big lifelong meditation retreat.
Reality being what it is, all we can do is mend our wounds and move on.
Learn how this works and create a context where you and the people like you can be happy.
And try to not step on too many toes of the opposite perspectives.

Today I overstressed a poor LSE PoLR cause I became excited about a topic.
He seemed perplexed and excused himself to the toilet. LOL xD
It is so easy to overtax someone else, you don't even think about it.
Some types are more lucky in that sociey demands things that are easy for them to do.
Many dom/aux Si have a hard time accepting that people behave outside of their narrow range.
You can't blame them cause society is set up to make it seem that way too.
Types that are assaulted by aliean POVs all life, don't find typology strange at all.
Finally confimation and redemption. I'm not deviant, I'm acting like I'm supposed to be acting.
In fact conforming would be deviant. 
Oh well enough with the rant already.. :crazy:


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

zinnia said:


> They never made fun of me outright, like "HAHA PIZZA FACE"... but I remember one teacher saying to the rest of the class (this was back when I wore black every day, sat by myself in the corner, I was depressed and isolated) to always look out for the quiet ones, because one day they will come in and shoot people. She looked right at me, and so did the rest of the class. I remember thinking... yes, that's right, the best way to treat those kids who are by themselves and wear the same clothes every day is to ridicule them, not to, you know, talk to them and ask them how they are doing. Smart.


Ah. Well, that still sounds as good as bullying to me. :/ I'm glad I didn't have asshole teachers, at least. Although I did have one teacher say that I didn't get the language my peers were speaking. He wasn't meaning to mock me, though, just making an observation, but at the time it did piss me off a little, because I liked to think I was capable of understanding everything if I wanted. However, it's true I wasn't a very adaptable kid. I had recently moved to a new place and puberty had started maybe a year or so earlier, so there were a lot of new things to get used to... but I didn't really _want _to get used to any of them. I just wanted everything to go back to how they used to be and move back to the city I grew up in and hang out with my old friends. Maybe it was my Si being stupid.

/emo



> Yeah, I went through a phase of not doing homework and not applying myself in school but I still made good grades... I don't want to sound ungrateful but that actually made things worse, because nobody caught on there was anything wrong since I was still doing well academically.


Yeah, with me it was pretty obvious that I was struggling lol. Actually, I think my mom had a hard time raising me since I was very little. It's amazing she didn't leave me for the wolves to deal with. =P


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

There is no reason why an Se-polr needn't be strong-willed. They might also be persistent but need help when it comes to where Se is needed.

Is Se somehow the one function one needs to "keep going?" No...all the functions play their role in "keeping going" -- whatever functions are relevant to what you are "keeping going" at. A weak point in the psyche is something the person has to learn to deal with somehow, but everyone has their problems.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Essentially, the XII's are going to gravitate towards means of applying their cognitive focus where complicated dimensions of Se are not paramount to the outcome sought.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

hornet said:


> Yeah dunno about the types who writes socionics.
> 
> As for Jung he said that he was an introverted thinker and intuition second.
> Now that would suggest LII and Alpha.
> ...


The reason why people argue IEI for Jung is because of his obvious dislike towards Te in particular which fits the idea of PoLR. Why would a Ti base spend so much time actively complaining about Te exposure? Te is in ignoring block for the LxI, meaning it's more of a "I care when it's too much but until then I don't give much of a fuck". There are also finer points regarding Jung's own thinking that just doesn't quite fit the structure of a Ti dom or base, because Jung often thought too much categorization was unnecessary and other egoic T types tend to be a bit frustrated with Jung's thinking exactly because of its lack of structure (I know I am one of those). I think what's really prevalent in Jung is actually his intuition which is what really seems to guide him. Another thing with regards to Gulenko's cognitive styles, is that Jung's thinking fits the structure of vortical-synergetic quite well in my opinion. 

The tl;dr is that what amazes me with Jung is not his thinking but his intuition, based on what I've read.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

ephemereality said:


> Haha, I guess that's the difference to us with Se base/suggestive in that pushing people around at some level feels satisfying, though only if they kind of stand back up to you. The pushing aspect is desirable. Right, @_Amaterasu_?


Right indeed. I like verbally (and to an extent physically) sparring with people and arguments that can go snap-snap-snap back and forth are loads of fun because they get me wound up. But the thing is, not everyone is able to counter this the way I want them to. Some of the time they can get rather vicious and personal, and that's something I don't like to do because I don't like to toy with things that people actually hold important. At other times they can be like "so mean!" or judge that I'm a cruel sort of person, and I can't handle that. All of it feels so weak, manipulative and snake-like. Then I start actually feeling bad for pushing them down.

I have that sort of internal war often. Do I kick everyone in my way down, or do I bother about how they feel and how this is going to productively (or otherwise) affect our relationship? Add to this my tendency to foresee pathetic ends to a lot of situations, and I find that all my aggression is rather caged in some way or the other. So when I find someone who can take it rather casually, I feel tremendously liberated.

Since everyone's talking about bullying... I can't say I have too much experience with it, fortunately, but right now for instance I'm the victim of a stupid joke/meme about me that's spreading really rapidly to a lot of people in my grade. At first I found it rather funny too, but now it's actually starting to get oppressive because they all post about it on Facebook and talk about it in front of me a lot. (People love talking about me for some reason.) 

I don't really care about being judged as whatever, but it's very annoying to deal with, even though it's meant playfully, and I tell my friends "if this affects whether I get a job later in life, I swear to fucking god I'm suing all of you." (see the inferior Ni? ) Of course I'm not going to do something like that, but that's how I get when I'm stressed out and need to retaliate. My retorts will cling to some sort of structure outside me that will decide in my favor, but that often doesn't work, and then I just say "I'm annoyed and you're all being really irritating. Stop it." 

This sort of thing makes people think I'm either an overly serious bitch, or uptight. And being thought of that way doesn't make sense to me because I'm just protecting my interests strongly.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

ephemereality said:


> The reason why people argue IEI for Jung is because of his obvious dislike towards Te in particular which fits the idea of PoLR. Why would a Ti base spend so much time actively complaining about Te exposure? Te is in ignoring block for the LxI, meaning it's more of a "I care when it's too much but until then I don't give much of a fuck". There are also finer points regarding Jung's own thinking that just doesn't quite fit the structure of a Ti dom or base, because Jung often thought too much categorization was unnecessary and other egoic T types tend to be a bit frustrated with Jung's thinking exactly because of its lack of structure (I know I am one of those). I think what's really prevalent in Jung is actually his intuition which is what really seems to guide him. Another thing with regards to Gulenko's cognitive styles, is that Jung's thinking fits the structure of vortical-synergetic quite well in my opinion.
> 
> The tl;dr is that what amazes me with Jung is not his thinking but his intuition, based on what I've read.


Well okay.
An interesting point of view. 
That would mean that Jung didn't understand himself very well.
Or that he really sucked in describing what he was about in that famous interview.
Or that he inserted a little white lie.
It might be that Jung was reluctant to label himself as an intuitive first cause he knew that society
at large would judge him to be unmanly if not. So he said thinking first as an image concern.

Personally I dig Jung for that lack of structure. 
That he doesn't try to force reality to conform too much to made up standards.
And when he do he is kinda reluctant and say, well I have to do this to a degree.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

hornet said:


> Well okay.
> An interesting point of view.
> That would mean that Jung didn't understand himself very well.
> Or that he really sucked in describing what he was about in that famous interview.
> ...


That happens to everyone. It is a possibility though as you say that he could have lied. Or he's human and didn't see himself fully either. As for structure, I'm more bothered that he's sometimes contradictory. Though compare Jung to say, Kant. If you ever read Kant you will see the difference. Kant was clearly ruled by Ti. Everything needed to be structured down to its precise detail. Jung is more similar to Plato. Have some grand ideas, but ultimately more concerned explaining how we perceive reality. It's notable that Jung's idea of collective unconsciousness has a similar ring to it like Plato's idealism.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

ephemereality said:


> That happens to everyone. It is a possibility though as you say that he could have lied. Or he's human and didn't see himself fully either. As for structure, I'm more bothered that he's sometimes contradictory. Though compare Jung to say, Kant. If you ever read Kant you will see the difference. Kant was clearly ruled by Ti. Everything needed to be structured down to its precise detail. Jung is more similar to Plato. Have some grand ideas, but ultimately more concerned explaining how we perceive reality. It's notable that Jung's idea of collective unconsciousness has a similar ring to it like Plato's idealism.


I agree that he seem very Ni heavy, in fact I'm unsure if I could have beared to read so many of his books
if they where written by a Ti dom POV.
I guess I would feel to big a resistance to it.
Now Jung didn't expect to be held to the standards of rigid systems like MBTI or Socionics
so maybe he didn't think it a big deal.
On another note, I'm much more aware of my Ni than my Fi cause I take the dom for granted.
I find great pleasure in seeing how things connect, where they come from and where they go.
Jung might have felt the same way about his Ni and Ti.
He said he was an introvert who was always thinking, had intuition, never concerned about the reality of things.
Since he wasn't concerned about fitting his words into such a scheme that we use today,
he really had no reason to state things in rigid terms.
But meh it becomes pure speculation into Jungs motives.
IEI isn't a bad typing of him when you try to slot him into the system.
It makes sense.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

hornet said:


> I agree that he seem very Ni heavy, in fact I'm unsure if I could have beared to read so many of his books
> if they where written by a Ti dom POV.
> I guess I would feel to big a resistance to it.
> Now Jung didn't expect to be held to the standards of rigid systems like MBTI or Socionics
> ...


Good point. I felt the same about Fi too, hence I mistyped as Fi dom for a while. I noticed the Fi-Te, but I didn't see the process it fed into because I was so used to it. 



> He said he was an introvert who was always thinking, had intuition, never concerned about the reality of things.
> Since he wasn't concerned about fitting his words into such a scheme that we use today,
> he really had no reason to state things in rigid terms.
> But meh it becomes pure speculation into Jungs motives.
> ...


It is also very possible that the way we understand type today is not how he understood type, aside the fact he thought the auxiliary should be introverted.


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