# SPs - bad students, not fitting with the educational system? not bright?



## scarygirl (Aug 12, 2010)

I was wondering.

Truth is that I love SPs, and lately I have been told that I look like one. It might be true, after all.

I have seen than many of you SPs work at things that are not considered classy or high-profile, I mean, you work at physical things, like, I don't know, those can be very different, but these can be theatre, very physical arts, shop assistants, cooking, things like that. People tend to look down on people like us.

Truth is that I don't like studying at all. I do, but I like working in these things more than any of the high profile things I have been told i should study. I appreciate freedom, and I feel much more at home in sensing, and easy environments. I feel much more relaxed, to be honest.

By the way, are really SPs not intelligent? They have a fame of not being. I think SPs ar eintellgient in a way other are not. And what if they are not? Non-intelligent people can be mor einteresting than good students. SPs are always the bad grades people. If I ever was, I confirm this theory. I preffer doing funny things rather than reading for an hour about something I don't care about.


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## themartyparade (Nov 7, 2010)

I'm very intelligent. In fact, I could be a straight A student if I put my mind to it. I just have a short attention span and I tend to get bored very easily. 

It's not that SPs aren't intelligent, it's just that the way most schools are formed (learning from reading a book etc) doesn't work for us. Well at least I don't find it stimulating enough.


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## susurration (Oct 22, 2009)

I did a keirsey test in my science class in university (of mixed majors), and there were a fair amount of SP's. And across the multiple classes that also took it. They were the second most represented keirsian group after SJ's.


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## sayalain (May 1, 2010)

i am bright, but educational system in my country sucks (for me). i don't study for the sake of getting a great job and be praised by my relatives or makes my parents proud. if i study, its for my sake and i want to understand it. not because of others. i want freedom, but i don't get it as much as others since my father decides it for me. i understand he want the best for me, but it drives me crazy.


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

I know a lot of people don't agree with what Keirsey says in Please Understand Me (I've heard Please Understand Me 2 is better, but I haven't read it), but I found his sections describing SP's to be very enlightening, especially when compared to that of SJ's.


I can say the American public school system (and my guess the school systems of many other Western countries, and maybe even some Eastern ones, not to mention a good number of American private schools) is set up in a very SJ manner. It is a very lengthy conversation to discuss why that is, but I think most would agree with it. I think universities appeal more to NF's and NT's than public school does. 

But SP's seem to be the one group that these traditional schooling methods seem to leave out. In my mind, it basically boils down to people not being willing to invest enough resources and money in order to create a school system that truly cares about real learning and education. Instead, the focus is on the economy and global competition. The idea of the arts and basic trades are shunted in mainstream public education. 

As an SJ, I really think out of the four temperaments, SP's are the ones I understand the least. I mean, I can *imagine* how they view the world, but I can never picture myself living that way. It almost reminds me of characters in fiction rather than real people sometimes because it's so foreign to me.

It's because the lack of consistency drives me crazy. The idea of living one day at a time and dealing with situations as they arise stresses me out completely. I just don't have the natural adaptive ability of an SP. I can't make decisions on the fly without having proper time to think about it and past experiences to back it up. The idea of not knowing where I'm going to be tomorrow scares me and stresses me out like almost nothing else. I get the impression that an SP is not only excited by this, but lives off these experiences. 

Again, I'm basing pretty much all of this on what I read in Please Understand Me. I know I'm generalizing and I may be wrong about SP's. 

But to me the most amazing example Keirsay used was the fable of the Ant and the Grasshopper, which diagrammed the differences between the way SP's and SJ's view life. He didn't paint one as being better than the other, just pointed out how strikingly different they are.


I think all four temperaments are equally intelligent, but in their own areas. An SP's intelligence I think is greatly appreciated by most people, but not understood or valued in the same way an SJ's or NT's is. And I think the high risk/high reward lifestyle of an SP is one that the other temperaments can't ever picture themselves doing, so this foreign world is never truly understood by them.

And I think this confusion is why there's so much clashing between SJ's and SP's. I don't see how a concerned SJ parent could ever trust their SP child because the SJ parent would be so deathly afraid of the SP child hurting themselves. The SJ parent just simply doesn't have the instincts the SP child does, and the SJ parent would have a hard time understanding and accepting that the SP child has that extra knowledge.


Basically, I don't think society is set up in order to help SP's reach their true potential in life. On the other hand, I don't see how it could be set up in order to do so. But I don't think SP's care for the most part...they seem to find as much enjoyment as they need in life one way or the other.


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## RyRyMini (Apr 12, 2010)

I speak personally when I say that I can very easily get an A in a class that I'm interested in or I feel I can apply in an area of my life, whether academic or personal. I know that all classes are useful in the world somehow, but I can't seem to get over my personal bias which is why I have a few Bs and a C on my transcript. I'm sure that among other SPs, I'm not alone in this.

Stereotypically, SPs are not viewed as smart. In fact, we're stereotyped as the least intelligent of the subtypes. It also has to do with one's view on intelligence. Society views intelligence as being able to quickly solve complicated math problems or getting a 4.0 GPA. In reality, however, there are many types of intelligences that are often undervalued. SPs are stereotypically strong in both interpersonal and kinesthetic intelligence that other subtypes are viewed as lacking in. Therefore, I think we deserve more credit than we're given.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

Standardised testing is the worst possible way to measure intelligence. Measure effort, yes. Measure common sense, perhaps. But intelligence, no. It's an SJ's game, really. NTs can get along with it if they work hard enough. I see that most NFs and SPs detest it.


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## InevitablyKriss (Dec 23, 2010)

I don't look at SP's as being unintelligent, myself.
The school system is made for cookie-cutter shapes. You cannot jam a square peg into a round hole.
The education system, in America at least, is very weak at delivering what an individual needs to learn well.
Don't think you're stupid just because you're an individual and others fail to know how to teach an individual such as yourself.

I suck at school. My "P" dominates and says, "F this, I rather draw/readfanfiction/daydream about things of real interest like space/time continuum."
Okay, well, I tried to pay attention, but I really couldn't.


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

I teach in public education in the US. Based on my experience in my state:



Diphenhydramine said:


> Standardised testing is the worst possible way to measure intelligence.


Correct.



Diphenhydramine said:


> Measure effort, yes. Measure common sense, perhaps. But intelligence, no.


Maybe...but no. I don't think standardized tests really measure anything, effort included. Standardized tests really have nothing to do with actual education and everything to do with politics. In some ways they measure effort, but not really.



Diphenhydramine said:


> It's an SJ's game, really. NTs can get along with it if they work hard enough. I see that most NFs and SPs detest it.


I agree that SJ's are at an advantage when it comes to traditional schooling and that it appeals to their strengths more. But it's like you said...it's a game. And SJ's are just naturally better at playing that particular game. It doesn't mean that they enjoy it or value it, either...even if they don't detest it quite as much as the other temperaments. I just think SJ's have an easier time going through the motions of it and doing what they have to, even if it's stupid, boring or pointless. 



InevitablyKriss said:


> I don't look at SP's as being unintelligent, myself.
> The school system is made for cookie-cutter shapes. You cannot jam a square peg into a round hole.
> The education system, in America at least, is very weak at delivering what an individual needs to learn well.
> Don't think you're stupid just because you're an individual and others fail to know how to teach an individual such as yourself.


Again, this is true, but it's true for everyone. To me, a lot of it goes back to this clip that someone once posted on PerC:






Really, our system is archaic and is not suited to educate anyone. Given the set up no teacher can appeal to everyone. Some students will get something out of some teachers, and some students won't get anything out of those teachers. The system is set up to standardize everyone to be the same thing, which a lot of times is pointing to mindless work and workers. AS I said, SJ's are probably better suited to this role just because they usually have less problems working at something without a higher goal. But SJ's aren't just mindless drones either. Really, the whole system isn't about real learning and education at all, it just puts on that face.


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## Darner (Apr 20, 2010)

I agree with all the above posters. I'm European and even if the school system is quite different here, the problems for SPs are the same. I'm doing my Masters now, but most probably only because my SJ mum was kicking my ass until the university time. I'm very capable, but sooooo lazy - this is the basic problem with SP, everything is interesting to us for a short amount of time.


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## Gauntlet (Oct 19, 2010)

I can play the game quite fine (I make high grades (without much effort at times) since it pleases me), but then again some ISTPs test as NTs fairly often and NTs do fine in the advanced classes of sorts. I prefer the advanced classes, as there is least something there for my mind. That was back in secondary schooling. Higher education is a different ball game. I'm only getting an AS, because I realize the field I'm going into is still quite young, there is no BA for such yet (thank god), and the field is quite hands on and constantly changing (yay!).

I want to pursue a BA in certain fields later in life, but I keep on flip flopping because I don't like course work. Too much book (I love reading too) and not enough hands on in certain fields. I suspect that is the issue for most SPs. The structure of sorts and not the fact that we aren't bright. Another issue as Darner pointed out is our interests change with the wind. I find myself going back and forth on interests, getting really engaged for a set of time, then hopping to another one, then another, then going back to that first interest.

One of the professors I respected the most is ESTP at my college. :3


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## Brie (Nov 26, 2009)

I'm actually the straight-A type, but I have been getting a little bit lazy lately. School is one of the few things I'm completely confident that I'm good at.

I don't always relate to the SP temperament, though. I don't think I'm good at improvising.


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## themartyparade (Nov 7, 2010)

Brie said:


> I'm actually the straight-A type, but I have been getting a little bit lazy lately. School is one of the few things I'm completely confident that I'm good at.
> 
> I don't always relate to the SP temperament, though. I don't think I'm good at improvising.


Not everything that's stated in the description is gonna apply to everyone to a 100%. It's just an indication of how you're most likely to approach things. Also, there's different kinds of improvisation. It doesn't always have to be something big. Just waking up in the morning and not making a plan for the day is improvising as you make up things as you go. Even talking to someone is improvisation (as long as you haven't rehearsed what to say).


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## scarygirl (Aug 12, 2010)

I feel like I don't fit in the Spanish educational system very SJ based too.

I wonder if I am an SP. Because I'm quite practical, and spur-of-the-moment. Well, not that practical, maybe. I think Ne users don't fit in a Si-based education system.
Thank you for your answers. All of you.


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## scarygirl (Aug 12, 2010)

teddy564339 said:


> I know a lot of people don't agree with what Keirsey says in Please Understand Me (I've heard Please Understand Me 2 is better, but I haven't read it), but I found his sections describing SP's to be very enlightening, especially when compared to that of SJ's.
> 
> 
> I can say the American public school system (and my guess the school systems of many other Western countries, and maybe even some Eastern ones, not to mention a good number of American private schools) is set up in a very SJ manner. It is a very lengthy conversation to discuss why that is, but I think most would agree with it. I think universities appeal more to NF's and NT's than public school does.
> ...


I feel like I was an SP more than an NP at times. I mean, I have the ways of an SP when I'm okay. Feels like I admire SPs.
This makes me wonder about my parents, bothof them ISTJs, and me, an IxFP. Everything seems risky for them. But it's not. When you tell 'em "life is a risk", with laughter, they look like they don't understand you at all.
Do you feel what I say?


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

scarygirl said:


> I feel like I was an SP more than an NP at times. I mean, I have the ways of an SP when I'm okay. Feels like I admire SPs.
> This makes me wonder about my parents, bothof them ISTJs, and me, an IxFP. Everything seems risky for them. But it's not. When you tell 'em "life is a risk", with laughter, they look like they don't understand you at all.
> Do you feel what I say?


I think a lot of this boils down to Si vs. Se. I talked about this idea and my experience with an ESTP in this thread:

http://personalitycafe.com/myers-briggs-forum/25276-open-ness-new-experiences.html


It's because ESP's and ISJ's have very different ways of viewing the world, very different perspectives on the purposes of their lives, and very different things that make them happy.

It's like I said in that thread...ISJ's strike ESP's as boring, and ESP's strike ISJ's as too stressful. 


This isn't to say that they can't learn from each other and adapt some of the things they do and how they feel. But the core of it is never going to change, and they have to understand they're never going to be able to change each other into being like them.

I can very much relate to your parents way of looking at things, and I've had this conversation with other people before. I think the main thing about it is that your parents can probably be happy with a way of living that you cannot be happy with. 


This always adds into how difficult parent/child relationships are. The parents are responsible for taking care of their children and teaching them about life, but their child may value and view things in life very different than the parent. So it puts strain on both sides.


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## scarygirl (Aug 12, 2010)

teddy564339 said:


> I think a lot of this boils down to Si vs. Se. I talked about this idea and my experience with an ESTP in this thread:
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/myers-briggs-forum/25276-open-ness-new-experiences.html
> 
> ...


My father says I'm stressful, loud, obnoxious, and overly expressive. I am always bringing down the roof, and screaming. Hahaha he doesn't know me really, I'm worse than tha at times.

I know. What I mean is that me and my family completely hate each other. We can't get along. I think there's an unnatural relationship with us, everytime we have to be alone together, we can't stand it. I'm depressive, strange, in their opinion; they strike as boring and uncreative. I hate being with them, because I miss my loved ones when I'm with them T.T.
I love danger, at times. I don't like the life they have, they studied, they married, and nothing crazy in between. I always did crazy shit all my life. I don't know, I can be pretty laid-back too, but they are...I don't know, very kept to themselves, very normal for me. BLEARGH. Sorry but..xD


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## Kokoro (Dec 7, 2010)

The thing that I always hated about the educational system here is that you don't just have to know the knowledge, you also have to know how the technique behind answering the questions in exams or writing up coursework. I remember, I always used to do terribly at the beginning of the year, but as soon as I picked up these techniques I was getting some of the top results in my classes. :dry:

I then decided to do a more practical based course at university and the same thing happens again, in the first year I failed all of my first practical exams because I didn't know the correct exam technique. Now I'm getting the equivalent of a 1st in them, but because of those fails at the beginning my final result will be low because they work out the average of all the results. :sad:


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## letsride (Dec 22, 2009)

Darner said:


> I'm doing my Masters now, but most probably only because my SJ mum was kicking my ass until the university time. I'm very capable, but sooooo lazy - this is the basic problem with SP, everything is interesting to us for a short amount of time.


I think this is why I did so well in K-12 school, because my SJ mother was always keeping me on track. In college I did well because I saw it as a challenge, and I enjoy rising to the occassion. 

Like Teddy mentioned, though, I don't think I really reached my potential until I got out of school. It was such a relief to have time to develop skills that I had suppressed for so long.

I worry about the way schools are cutting out shop classes, welding classes, and art classes. What is going to happen to the kids who want to pursue these skills as a career?


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

I have never got an A in my life, mainly because at school I was more concentrating on social needs, but then again I didn't have my best years in High School, I suffered from an eating disorder, so the last thing on my mind was grades. For myself to do well in class, I have to like the teacher, they have to be friends, not authority figures.

Plus I never got why art was taught, art is self expression, does it really matter if you shade it correctly? Yeah it's nice, but art can be anything! That is why I left art class and didn't take it as an exam. I never understood why it was so restricted.


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## letsride (Dec 22, 2009)

firedell said:


> Plus I never got why art was taught, art is self expression, does it really matter if you shade it correctly? Yeah it's nice, but art can be anything! That is why I left art class and didn't take it as an exam. I never understood why it was so restricted.


I still remember in 2nd grade, our class was painting a wall mural. One of my classmates was painting the clouds blue, and the teacher near had a fit about it. Even at that age, I couldn't understand what the problem was, it was just art. If the kid wants blue clouds, why can't he have them? It was our mural, anyway, not the teacher's.


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## themartyparade (Nov 7, 2010)

firedell said:


> Plus I never got why art was taught, art is self expression, does it really matter if you shade it correctly? Yeah it's nice, but art can be anything! That is why I left art class and didn't take it as an exam. I never understood why it was so restricted.


Tell me about it! 
To me art is like maths when I'm in school. Simply 'cause everything has to be "perfect" and it's gotta be the right scale on everything and blablabla. I hate maths, thus I hate art.


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## sea cucumber (Oct 14, 2010)

The ISTP I was with was one of the most intelegent people I know, and the ENTP has a great career in magazine publishing.

Both didnt live up to their ful potentioal at school. They just didn't feel the need prove their intelegence through grades. rebelius and did their own thing. They do what they want, they would work in a cake shop if they wanted to, and then randomly dish accurate and well worked fact based knowlage with ease when the need strikes.


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## Capsicum (Mar 17, 2010)

I did very well in my first several years (until I was about 11yo) of school (I was even in a gifted students' class for a year, when my school offered it), and I think it's because early schooling is very SP orientated. It's all about DOING -- spelling tests, mental arithmetic and so on. Also, early schooling is the only place you'll find SP teachers in great numbers, as they can roll with being a jack of all trades that teachers of younger students have to be.

High school? I struggled, and I was lucky to get B marks (when I got them, I usually got C marks). I couldn't understand algebra, chemistry of physics and was politely told to drop these subjects (which I gladly did, after all, all I saw was a page full of lines and symbols). Also, the social politics of high school really doesn't suit ISTPs. In graduating year, ExFJ students were the most popular socially and did the best academically.

However, I've done very well at uni because it's pretty different from high school. :laughing:


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## Fizz (Nov 13, 2010)

I never really cared much about school, I always felt like it was a waste of my time and all I cared about was if I got a passing grade. My family never directed me, it was just expected that I would deal with it. I always had poor attendance and never really did my homework.

Later in high school I began to care and kept a perfect attendance, which I have continued into college. I get excellent grades with little to no effort. Lately I have been unstimulated by school and would like to pursue other ventures. I plan to return to school if it is necessary, but I would rather not waste money on something I do not enjoy. I don't want to do something because I'm expected to.

But the stereotype that SPs are lazy is ridiculous! I'd...say something in response but I'm too lazy.


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## Azwan (Nov 2, 2010)

Strange, huh?

I'm an NT and I sucked in school. I graduated with B's and C's. Looking forward to polytechnic.

I am considering the possibility I am an SP.


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## Aerorobyn (Nov 11, 2009)

I'm smart, I know this. I got VERY good grades throughout grade school, and into my first year of college. But when it comes to learning that way, I am very lazy. If something interests me enough, I will research it, discuss it, etc.; however, I prefer to do this on my own, and not be told that I_ have_ to do it and be tested over it. 

I am almost done with college now, but there are a few times that I have seriously considered dropping out. The learning style there just isn't me. I'm too "lazy" to focus that much time and effort into classes that really don't even interest me, or that I feel will not be applicable to my future in any way. To be honest, I *know* for a fact that I would be doing _much_ better if I were in a schooling environment that offered hands-on training the majority of the time. 

The same could be said for work. For example: I worked a job that had me sitting behind a desk most of the time, and I did not like this. It didn't give me enough "exercise" (physically and mentally) for full satisfaction, and my boss could tell this. I finally got the opportunity to go out and about and actually do something with physical, mental, and social stimulation - and what do you know, my boss thought I did _so_ much better! 

The point is: I can do anything I put my mind to. I know how smart I am. But I want to do something for me, something that will benefit me, and something where I can actually put it to use in the immediate moment... the typical classroom environment does not exercise any of that. Not for me.


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## QueenOfCats (Jan 28, 2011)

I love school because in our classes, we mostly do projects in which we have more leeway because teachers like Honor kids more than regular classes kids. I love my elective classes, Band and Gym. I really love Gym. There's alot of people who I know and can talk to and its an extra long period. I like electives class more than regular classes. My favorite class is Social Studies because we do all these fun cases and discussions. I mostly do Honors classes because most people I know are in these classes and because I know being good at school is good for me in the long run.


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## MartyMcFly1 (Nov 14, 2010)

Almost every ES*P I have ever met had severe difficulties with school. The ESTP's I knew weren't interested in it, and the ESFP's tried their very best but just couldn't comprehend theory very well. Though, now that I think about it, the ESTP's I knew weren't too good with theory either. One ESTP I knew was pretty decent at math though. The ISTP's I know usually do pretty well in school. They can hold their own, though my step-brother is an ISTP and did absolutely horrible in school. My brother is an ISFP and is a friggin genius. Literally a genius, he could read before he could talk and always got A's in school. I think that having a primary Se, often get's in the way of school but I imagine that there are exceptions.




Azwan said:


> Strange, huh?
> 
> I'm an NT and I sucked in school. I graduated with B's and C's. Looking forward to polytechnic.
> 
> I am considering the possibility I am an SP.


Or a particularly lazy NTP...? I didn't do very well in high school but I was just bored. Now that I'm in college I am doing exceptionally well. In college they give you an adequate amount of free time to study on your own. In high school I absolutely HATED how long they kept us there for. Hours and hours and hours to cover material that I could sit on my own for and hour and learn. Because of this I never actually seriously opened a textbook until my senior year of high school and I actually did pretty well my senior year. When I was in 1st grade they wanted to promote me to the 3rd grade but my mother for some reason thought it was a bad idea(I still never let her hear the end of it about that decision). Though, I have met only 1 ENTJ who has done poorly in school in my entire life. And he was the type that grew up so wealthy that school was never really a priority to him. The rest of the ENTJ's I knew never struck me as particularly intelligent, just extremely focused. They would do ANYTHING to get the A. They would attend any review session, organize study groups and if they didn't like the grade, spend hours arguing with and appealing to the teacher until the teacher finally gave in and changed their grade.

Also, I once read somewhere that ES*P's don't to very well in school due to the fact that most teachers don't have their personality type, so they don't teach in a way that resonates with young Extroverted Sensors. Makes sense I guess. Some ES*P's that I know are brilliant in terms of social dynamics, or conning people but if what they learned in school that day didn't immediately help them live their lives then it was not worth learning to them and they usually skipped. The ES*P's who did do somewhat well in school that I know all had pretty wealthy parents who would shell out tons of money to buy them tutors and would check their children's homework every night before they let their child go to bed(this lasted all throughout high school for them, and as you can imagine, once they got to college and didn't have anyone forcing them to do their homework they all immediately began failing. Literally all of them...)


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## Neon Knight (Aug 11, 2010)

I did fine in the beginning and skipped half way through the year and still kicked butt. Then all of a sudden things got really hard because depression had finally fully kicked in with all the social/home stress. I even skipped a whole grade in piano. I guess if it's not something I enjoy or see the point of I'm not likely to do well anyway.



themartyparade said:


> Tell me about it!
> To me art is like maths when I'm in school. Simply 'cause everything has to be "perfect" and it's gotta be the right scale on everything and blablabla. I hate maths, thus I hate art.


math+art=graphic design...

I hate that whole idea. If you didn't use the tools you paid a fortune for or were off cutting your boards by .25 cm, it wasn't good enough and you had to buy a new one and try again...wasted lots just on that alone. That and no room for creativity in the real sense, ie: not for commercial purposes. And if you freehand, that's a no-no too lol. Most anal "art" course ever...


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## Mutatio NOmenis (Jun 22, 2009)

SP's are the people I know with the bad grades. Somehow, one I know is so dumb they have to strike bargains with teachers to barely pass 9'th grade biology. If I were in that girl's class, or her parents, I'd be beating her to a pulp for throwing away her education.


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## Fizz (Nov 13, 2010)

I have excellent grades. Again, a few Ns in here trying to prove some point that isn't valid.


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## etherealuntouaswithin (Dec 7, 2010)

It's strange..as contrary to what is believed by many,our education system does not appear inclined systemically to support persons of the SP sort.I was very much bored and discomforted with the "educational" priorities of my middle and high school experiences..and looked elsewhere for what i believed was a proper "education" for myself...Cutting classes to enter art and acting studios in the city,reading personally selected books in Barnes and Nobles throughout the day(..while cutting classes lol) on Stage Craft,Religious and philosophical texts,psyhcology,Shakespeare,studying Films and Plays,etc.. all to better my thinking in terms of _Craft_ (Writing,Acting,etc.)...and i am in my opinion,*Much* better off for it.(It's frightening as to what i may have been doing had i not done so).

Ultimately however,I believe that one's "Type" does not determine one's "Intelligence".(This has been said before...may times im sure,yet for some very strange reason,there are those who continue to refute this)


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## Staryu (Jun 28, 2010)

heh, i spose im a bad student for coming on here to check the postings instead of studying. in my case yes. i never liked school, couldn't care about "learning" unless it serves a practical purpose. same here now. am i dumb? possibly! i couldn't be bothered though :laughing:


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## uncreative_name (Sep 24, 2010)

Diphenhydramine said:


> Standardised testing is the worst possible way to measure intelligence. Measure effort, yes. Measure common sense, perhaps. But intelligence, no. It's an SJ's game, really. NTs can get along with it if they work hard enough. I see that most NFs and SPs detest it.



Yeah, standardized testing just measures how good you can fill in circles with a No. 2 pencil without going outside the lines too much and matching the right line with the corresponding problem in the test book. It's the epitome of what's wrong with our system.

As for intelligence, what's intelligence defined as even?

I graduated with a 3.7 GPA so by those standards I'm not dumb. I do better in subjects I care about and was told some of my research papers by my business and psychology professors that they were "graduate" level papers. I had one psych professor who assumed I was going to graduate school and was a little disappointed when she found out I wasn't. Even more shocked when I told her in class once I hate reading.

Maybe I'm dumb because I don't know what intelligence is or how you even define it.


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## Fizz (Nov 13, 2010)

etherealuntouaswithin said:


> It's strange..as contrary to what is believed by many,our education system does not appear inclined systemically to support persons of the SP sort._I was very much bored and discomforted with the "educational" priorities of my middle and high school experiences..and looked elsewhere for what i believed was a proper "education" for myself._..Cutting classes to enter art and acting studios in the city,reading personally selected books in Barnes and Nobles throughout the day(..while cutting classes lol) on Stage Craft,Religious and philosophical texts,psyhcology,Shakespeare,studying Films and Plays,etc.. all to better my thinking in terms of _Craft_ (Writing,Acting,etc.)...and i am in my opinion,*Much* better off for it.(It's frightening as to what i may have been doing had i not done so).
> 
> _Ultimately however,I believe that one's "Type" does not determine one's "Intelligence"._(This has been said before...may times im sure,yet for some very strange reason,there are those who continue to refute this)


I too found middle and high school to be very boring, it was too repetitive. Now that I'm in college, we're getting taught the same stuff again with a few bonuses. They're trying to make up for all the stuff we weren't taught before but end up stunting us.

And you're exactly right, type doesn't make you intelligent. It's inane to even argue one type is better than the other :crazy:



Staryu said:


> heh,_ i spose im a bad student for coming on here to check the postings instead of studying._ in my case yes. i never liked school, couldn't care about "learning" unless it serves a practical purpose. same here now. am i dumb? possibly! i couldn't be bothered though :laughing:


SHHHHHH!!! Don't tell anyone our secret of getting work done and procrastinating at the same time. They're just jealous.


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## DoctorYikes (Nov 22, 2010)

My failures have always been more about direction than ability. Are SPs "intelligent"? Intelligent can be a pretty vague word -- If you're going by IQ, I hover right around the cutoff of two SDs above average. (I could barely make Mensa) Meanwhile, though, I proceeded to flunk out of college my first run at it because I was off trying to be a rock star, instead. Accumulated some 'F' grades because I couldn't be bothered to actually withdraw from the classes I wasn't bothering to attend.

I've tended to describe it like... I can excell at anything I put my mind to, but I'm absolutely horrible at having much say in what I'm going to be putting my mind to on any given day. Heh.

Obviously, this is the sort of thing a person can compensate for over the years, and I've drug myself kicking and screaming into a grown up person career field (I work with intensive care preemies). My constant problem, still, is too much present focus... If it's not a Dramatic Emergency, or if someone isn't going to die or something, my inclination is to put it off. Also, I can be notoriously lazy. Not for lack of energy, mind you, I can go for days when motivated -- Just a slack bastard.

Probably, I'm a little too addicted to change, as well -- Sneaking up on five years in my career, getting the itch to go back to school and do something else. Boredom is The Enemy.

In summary, am I an Intelligent SP? Yes. Am I being a dumbass with great regularity? Yes.


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## Lokkye (Dec 28, 2009)

SPs are bright just not at school
School is formulated as an SJ system and SPs don't like it. SPs are more spontaneous and whimsical than SJs, so you could just say school doesn't fit SPs since it doesn't relate to their specific needs or wants.
SPs are more likely to underperform, but it doesn't mean they're not bright, actually SPs are the most talented musicians, artists, explorers and all that sort. They can be very brilliant at anything that involves some sort of usage of an instrument or tool, and anything that isn't specifically planned. They also like to be on the go and always active, they're the sort that will find a lot of enjoyment in video games because it consists of involvement.
School doesn't consist of much involvement. You just sit on your butt watching things happen and this doesn't appeal to SPs who always need to be doing something. They are bad students if the subject doesn't interest them, But if you teach them something they greatly enjoy, trust me they'll get the details right.


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## Fizz (Nov 13, 2010)

Lokkye said:


> School doesn't consist of much involvement. You just sit on your butt watching things happen and this doesn't appeal to SPs who always need to be doing something. They are bad students if the subject doesn't interest them, But if you teach them something they greatly enjoy, trust me they'll get the details right.


I find lectures to be the worst form of teaching for myself, I've never been more excited to do math problems in my life. I can only learn by doing, as I am the Doer. I couldn't give less of a turd about what an instructor has to say for the most part.


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

Lokkye said:


> SPs are bright just not at school
> School is formulated as an SJ system and SPs don't like it. SPs are more spontaneous and whimsical than SJs, so you could just say school doesn't fit SPs since it doesn't relate to their specific needs or wants.
> SPs are more likely to underperform, but it doesn't mean they're not bright, actually SPs are the most talented musicians, artists, explorers and all that sort. They can be very brilliant at anything that involves some sort of usage of an instrument or tool, and anything that isn't specifically planned. They also like to be on the go and always active, they're the sort that will find a lot of enjoyment in video games because it consists of involvement.
> School doesn't consist of much involvement. You just sit on your butt watching things happen and this doesn't appeal to SPs who always need to be doing something. They are bad students if the subject doesn't interest them, But if you teach them something they greatly enjoy, trust me they'll get the details right.


This is always what's bothered me about our school system...it's set up to make everyone do the exact same thing. Everyone has to take the exact same classes (minus electives and honors level, but at the core the same thing). I have never met anyone who loved every single class they took in high school. Some people like and are better at some things, others with other things.

As a teacher, what I really hate is how we're always told by people higher up that it's our job to interest and "engage" all students by using a variety of techniques.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that general principle isn't a great thing. My problem is that it's so hypocritical, and it's impossible for any teacher to fully do given the way our system is set up. I can try to come up with different ways of teaching things and different activities to try to teach it. But I'm still not going to be able to make everyone happy all of the time, especially given all of the other constraints put upon us. If someone just hates my subject, there's nothing I can do. This is particularly true when the curriculum is so college based (I teach math, by the way). The only way I can appeal to everyone is to compromise the curriculum.


Anyway, didn't mean to go on my teacher rant. It's just that education is always a sore subject for me since it's the field I deal with every day.


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## ItsAlwaysSunny (Dec 17, 2010)

Fizz said:


> I have excellent grades. Again, a few Ns in here trying to prove some point that isn't valid.


^This.

I've been a straight A student and in gifted classes all my life. As far as SPs preferring hands on work, the most that I can say is that I do prefer math (which involves actually doing something). After I graduate I plan on going to grad school for physical therapy. English class always bored me as do many of my theoretical classes in college, but I push through it because I take pride in all of my work--even the boring crap that I can't avoid. I prefer things that are applicable to my life and my interests but I'm not going to let myself be a failure because everything in life isn't 100% suited towards my preferences.


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## nevermore (Oct 1, 2010)

My brother is an ESTP and very smart, although he does terrible at school. Like many EP's, he's great at thinking outside the box but is easily distracted and a poor organizer. There is also a bit of ambivalence to "the system" in SP's, I find.


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## Deadpool (Feb 22, 2011)

We artisans are very very intelligent in skool but we just dnt apply ourselves into it cuz I guess we find it boring or well I do


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## Cherryiezz (Feb 27, 2011)

I think SPs are very intelligent. I agree with some of the previous posts, the school system is not SP friendly. I work best doing hands on assignments and I am a visual learner. Power points filled with nothing but text is annoying. Reading is annoying. Traditional school is annoying, but I've managed to complete my undergraduate degree with virtually no problems. The science classes hurt my gpa a little, but i managed to survive on the deans list ) 

Since graduating years ago, i've gone to graduate school and got bored, so i left. A few years after that fateful experience, i've gone back to school to do more hands on, technical things in IT. I'm taking some of my classes online and i'm surprised to discover i've done extremely well. I think its because the online classes allow you to complete tests and assignments according to a fairly loose agenda, ie- you have two weeks to complete assignment A, so long as you turn it in by the deadline. I also like it because the books are very task oriented, after each topic there are interactive assignments online or step by step instructions on what to do on your home computer the achieve a certain results. It also forces you to be very resourceful, which is a natural talent, and heavily rely on manipulating technology. It's like a breeding ground for ISTP success!


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## Vtile (Feb 27, 2011)

Hmm.. I should get my Beng graduation paper out of school at this year. Eww, Without allmost any homework (Which I regret, but when you have been sitting 8hours listening at school (feel like mummy), I just couldn't sit another 4 hours at home studying theory ..for what.).
Many times when I feeled like some theory were intresting and when I did ask something to clarify a situation related to subject from teachers they were like: "mm, err, mmm, well, mm, we shouldn't loose the track of the subject = they didn't have a clue on that peace of knowledge I were after, more than often it were simple - Why? or What about in this case? (or that I felt) .". 
Edit. There were those good ones too naturally. :happy:

My numbers in theory subjects are crap, but professional subjects (hands on/theory) are great. 
So yes I'm a bad student, intelligent well it solely depends on how you descripe it. Lazy yes when things are too easy or "hands-on" part are too far away.

Edit2. I'm not living in states
It's funny to see that my mood chanced to







while writing this.


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