# The Zodiac: Legit, Misguided, Wrong?



## MonarK (Jul 27, 2018)

Inspired by this thread: https://www.personalitycafe.com/oth...749-how-do-you-guys-feel-about-zodiacs-2.html

I decided to open another thread discussing the viability and integrity of the system, rather than focusing on general thoughts about it. I've also decided against putting this in the debate thread as it's not intended for this to be a battle of ideologies, nor is it a volatile issue; an open forum would yield more information. (I'm open to it being transferred if need be.)

The Zodiac--so wide is its recognition, but few have a deep understanding of the matter. Beginning with my thoughts on it, I'd be hard-pressed to say that celestial bodies don't have minute impacts upon the individual. However, the traditional Zodiac goes about understanding the effects of these celestial radiations through date of birth...which has too many implications to support.

Isn't a fetus already being exposed to these celestial radiations during its formation, and isn't all life being exposed to it after conception? Why is it that an affinity such as or like DNA doesn't have a role in determining our reactions to these celestial radiations? Why is it that constellations are directly attributed for the bulk of an individual's personality traits? Why is it that these constellations are associated with particular planets, and with what metrics can we gauge the affinity of these constellations to their patron planets?

Finally, what advice would any of you who have a vested interest in astrology give to me: I'm a Taurus, yet I stand in contradiction to most of its descriptions. I would appreciate if anyone would be able to give insight into my series of questions; astrology is a system that I haven't found many answers in, nor have I had much success in attempting to understand all of it dynamics, so I hope that someone will shed some light on the matter.

On a side note, I'd like to link this article and hear everyone's thoughts on the notion of a 13th archetype and whether or not the original 12 still stand. Have fun: https://www.inverse.com/article/21211-nasa-didn-t-change-zodiac-signs-astrology-versus-astronomy


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## BroNerd (Nov 27, 2010)

I guess the thing I have to ask is why my twin sister and I are so different in terms of personality - if the Zodiac is supposed to determine one's character. 

My sign is Pisces but I don't fully relate to the description. 

When reading the actual sign descriptions, I think the signs which fit me the best personality-wise are Aquarius and Sagittarius. 
A Sagiquarius. 

Out of the signs, I think Pisces and Taurus fit my twin the best - or a.. nothing sounds good with these two signs combined but picture two fish with bull horns. 

But for the record - I think my sign (Pisces) is pretty cool because of the fish and I'm right on the cusp of Aquarius/Pisces.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

A good astrologer always gives good advice--regardless of whether they have all the details about a certain problem. I think that, in that way, a good astrologer is probably a good philosopher, as well as a helpful neighbor, and a compassionate human being.


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## xwsmithx (Jan 17, 2017)

The number, breadth, and depth of studies debunking astrology are breathtaking. Plus, astrology dating back over 2,500 years means that precession has assured that the "signs" no longer correspond to the position of the sun in the sky. I, personally, am an Ophiuchus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiuchus_(astrology)

But of course that isn't an option in astrology.


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

I'm going with "misguided". I think it's interesting as a precursor to modern science and as an old lore system. The 12-sign system in mainstream use has essentially no scientific validity as far as I am aware. I don't really have a problem with its usage - after all, much of personality psychology is not scientific either - but I think it does tend to get misapplied. For example, I have been really surprised by the amount of zodiac-based posts I've seen on social media saying all sorts of odd things like "most likely to cheat" or other strange posited correlations.



Wicker Deer said:


> A good astrologer always gives good advice--regardless of whether they have all the details about a certain problem. I think that, in that way, a good astrologer is probably a good philosopher, as well as a helpful neighbor, and a compassionate human being.


Relying on the Forer effect, basically. On one hand I think that is true and a kind way to look at it. Though it also makes me question why anyone would want to be an astrologer when they could just be a good philosopher, helpful neighbor, and compassionate human being who happens to be interested in astrology as a personal hobby. That being said, I am a fan of one fragrance enthusiast who recommends perfumes/colognes each week based on astrology. I can't really argue with that usage of it.


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## MonarK (Jul 27, 2018)

Let's spice things up. What are your thoughts on this?


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## 74893H (Dec 27, 2017)

With no disrespect meant to the people here who believe in it, I don't see how the perspective of balls of fire in the sky can determine anything whatsoever about a person or their life. I can only see people who profit from astrology as con artists.


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## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

The zodiac isn't as harmless as one might think. Take for instance the global effect of the Chinese zodiac...


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

He's a Superhero! said:


> The zodiac isn't as harmless as one might think. Take for instance the global effect of the Chinese zodiac...


Interesting! Her accent is lovely. More on-topic, I like her graphs and data figures.

I kind of see much religion in the same light, though. It's heavily influential on many people, and certainly in culture (consider American spending trends during December as Christmastime approaches, or Middle Eastern transportation during the Hajj). But at least personally I don't believe in all world religions and so find certain practices similarly unfounded. So I have a hard time being particularly pejorative towards the zodiac.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

angelfish said:


> I'm going with "misguided". I think it's interesting as a precursor to modern science and as an old lore system. The 12-sign system in mainstream use has essentially no scientific validity as far as I am aware. I don't really have a problem with its usage - after all, much of personality psychology is not scientific either - but I think it does tend to get misapplied. For example, I have been really surprised by the amount of zodiac-based posts I've seen on social media saying all sorts of odd things like "most likely to cheat" or other strange posited correlations.
> 
> 
> 
> Relying on the Forer effect, basically. On one hand I think that is true and a kind way to look at it. Though it also makes me question why anyone would want to be an astrologer when they could just be a good philosopher, helpful neighbor, and compassionate human being who happens to be interested in astrology as a personal hobby. That being said, I am a fan of one fragrance enthusiast who recommends perfumes/colognes each week based on astrology. I can't really argue with that usage of it.


Yeah I don't actually believe in astrology, but I've been following an astrologer since I was a teen. 

I love reading the "predictions" because they are uplifting and creative. The guy was actually just an English major looking for a job out of college and he saw a listing for astrology column writer, and he just needed a job. He didn't really have any history with it, I don't think--but he's now been doing it for years and he's one of my favorite writers.

Here's my astrology reading from him this week (it's actually kind of a cool coincidence because I just finally, for the first time in so long, forced myself to start trying to paint a painting on my birthday...it was the one thing I really wanted and I said to myself "it's my birthday and I get to do what I want." So it's interesting coincidence. Van Gogh is also one of my favorite artists. And I often consider Van Gogh's life--I think about him a lot and have identified with him since I was a kid. So this is actually the perfect message for me right now--it's super uplifting. I don't care (or even know) if it's based in astrology, but he always does a wonderful job of offering good advice and not doing the whole dogma thing with "do not go out and do business ventures etc." He just offers thought provoking encouragement and advice which is one of the reasons I admire him so much.

Aries artist Vincent van Gogh got started on his life's work relatively late. At ages 25 and 26 he made failed attempts to train as a pastor and serve as a missionary. He didn't launch his art career in earnest until he was 27. During the next ten years, he created 860 paintings —an average of 1.7 every week—as well as over 1,200 additional works of art. For comparison, the prolific painter Salvador Dali made 1,500 paintings in 61 years. During the coming twelve months, Aries, you could achieve a van Gogh-like level of productiveness in your own chosen field—especially if you lay the foundations now, during our stay-at-home phase.


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## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

angelfish said:


> Interesting! Her accent is lovely. More on-topic, I like her graphs and data figures.
> 
> I kind of see much religion in the same light, though. It's heavily influential on many people, and certainly in culture (consider American spending trends during December as Christmastime approaches, or Middle Eastern transportation during the Hajj). But at least personally I don't believe in all world religions and so find certain practices similarly unfounded. So I have a hard time being particularly pejorative towards the zodiac.


Well the zodiac was first used as part of ancient religion. While religion can be a force for good, religion can also have a negative impact on the world around it too. Take for instance the Aztec and Maya with their traditional religion that involved mass human sacrifices...Surely this had an enormously negative impact on Mesoamericans during that time. Similarly, the Canaanite tribes, including the Phoenicians and Carthaginians, practiced sacrificing their own children through fire, which would have had a horrible affect on their regions of the world. That being said, something negative can be a lot more subtle than that, which is where I would categorize the zodiac. It's not so obvious that it is harmful, but when one see how it controls people's actions so much, they start to see that this is problematic, and not just harmless fun.


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## Koffee (Apr 22, 2019)

wow seems like people here only know about their main (sun) sign?? 

I do know about astrology. I know its more than just your sun sign. Moon,rising, venus in your natal chart.. whatever..
but there are still many things i dont relate in my chart, maybe I just dont know how to look at the chart as a whole idk.. but I choose ''bogus'' for now eh


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## Cat Brainz (Jan 26, 2016)

To me its a fun system and I love the personalty profiles but I dont think its plausble my Te is like *No your birthtime does not determine your personallty* but id love to see a personalty system where someone could be a X Sun, X Moon based on their personallty traits its like if you fit the profile of say a Aquarious Moon, Libra Sun e.t.c you can be that.


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## Blazkovitz (Mar 16, 2014)

Pure mythology, but for many people it's the first step to explore their personality.


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

He's a Superhero! said:


> Well the zodiac was first used as part of ancient religion. While religion can be a force for good, religion can also have a negative impact on the world around it too. Take for instance the Aztec and Maya with their traditional religion that involved mass human sacrifices...Surely this had an enormously negative impact on Mesoamericans during that time. Similarly, the Canaanite tribes, including the Phoenicians and Carthaginians, practiced sacrificing their own children through fire, which would have had a horrible affect on their regions of the world. That being said, something negative can be a lot more subtle than that, which is where I would categorize the zodiac. It's not so obvious that it is harmful, but when one see how it controls people's actions so much, they start to see that this is problematic, and not just harmless fun.


Problematic... perhaps... but at the same time many of us on this site subscribe to MBTI typing, which is not scientific either, and can lead people into particular forms of stereotyping and bigotry. But I would not discourage people from using the MBTI. I do not know that it is fair of me to similarly discount astrology. Again, it is not my personal preference, but I wouldn't go as far to say it is explicitly harmful. I think the ways people may decide to use it can be harmful, but that is true of most conceptual schemes, and astrology is certainly not particularly designed to harm.

Overall, I would much prefer if the lack of founded science behind astrology were more clearly portrayed, but I find that to be globally true. I often find myself desiring more or better scientific analysis in the media. I do not really see it as an issue restricted to astrology alone. I tend to believe that if we had more educational focus on critical thinking and scientific validity, that people would be better able to sort issues like this out for themselves. On my list of general concerns for the world, astrology ranks very low. 



Koffee said:


> wow seems like people here only know about their main (sun) sign??


Can't speak for others, but I have some familiarity with ascendant, Moon, houses, nodes, etc. But general Western media does seem fairly limited to sun signs.


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## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

angelfish said:


> Problematic... perhaps... but at the same time many of us on this site subscribe to MBTI typing, which is not scientific either, and can lead people into particular forms of stereotyping and bigotry. But I would not discourage people from using the MBTI. I do not know that it is fair of me to similarly discount astrology. Again, it is not my personal preference, but I wouldn't go as far to say it is explicitly harmful. I think the ways people may decide to use it can be harmful, but that is true of most conceptual schemes, and astrology is certainly not particularly designed to harm.
> 
> Overall, I would much prefer if the lack of founded science behind astrology were more clearly portrayed, but I find that to be globally true. I often find myself desiring more or better scientific analysis in the media. I do not really see it as an issue restricted to astrology alone. I tend to believe that if we had more educational focus on critical thinking and scientific validity, that people would be better able to sort issues like this out for themselves. On my list of general concerns for the world, astrology ranks very low.


To be fair, just because something wasn't meant to be harmful, doesn't mean that it isn't...and on that note, not thinking that something is harmful doesn't always mean it isn't either. You are very right about the MBTI, which I have personally seen result in stereotyping and bigotry. I've also heard, like astrology, MBTI being used to decide whether or not to hire people for jobs! Some also decide who they will date or not based solely on MBTI and/or the enneagram. I don't discuss MBTI or the enneagram anymore, as I haven't for a few years now, and have pushed away from it. Like you said, it's unscientific, and it's problematic. I also feel it had a negative affect on me. Instead of just being me, I was subconsciously adjusting to fit into there boxes that someone else came up with. I didn't even notice this happening.
Astrology may not be one of my main concerns about this world either, but it still is pervasive, directly affecting millions of people, and indirectly affecting billions. I'd say that makes it significant. While indeed we do have bigger issues to deal with, that doesn't mean we should ignore comparatively smaller, but also harmful ones.


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

He's a Superhero! said:


> To be fair, just because something wasn't meant to be harmful, doesn't mean that it isn't...and on that note, not thinking that something is harmful doesn't always mean it isn't either. You are very right about the MBTI, which I have personally seen result in stereotyping and bigotry. I've also heard, like astrology, MBTI being used to decide whether or not to hire people for jobs! Some also decide who they will date or not based solely on MBTI and/or the enneagram. I don't discuss MBTI or the enneagram anymore, as I haven't for a few years now, and have pushed away from it. Like you said, it's unscientific, and it's problematic. I also feel it had a negative affect on me. Instead of just being me, I was subconsciously adjusting to fit into there boxes that someone else came up with. I didn't even notice this happening.
> Astrology may not be one of my main concerns about this world either, but it still is pervasive, directly affecting millions of people, and indirectly affecting billions. I'd say that makes it significant. While indeed we do have bigger issues to deal with, that doesn't mean we should ignore comparatively smaller, but also harmful ones.


Ah, but see, I have found MBTI personally very beneficial. It has helped me tend to interpersonal wounds and forge stronger and better relationships, in addition to gaining a better understanding of myself. And there are those who find meaning and motivation in astrology as well. The problem with both systems is that they have capacity for healing as well as harm. I agree that MBTI being used for hiring is an issue and I speak up against it if it is raised as a topic around me. Still, I don't think that specific usage means the MBTI shouldn't be utilized at all, no moreso than I think we should outlaw pocket knives because people _can_ use them for self-harm. I agree with your point that focusing on bigger issues doesn't mean we should ignore smaller ones, but I don't see astrology as a decidedly harmful system. I just see it as one of many conceptual frameworks that entails some issues, mainly just from people using it in ways that are unkind or oblivious to their fellow beings.


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## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

angelfish said:


> Ah, but see, I have found MBTI personally very beneficial. It has helped me tend to interpersonal wounds and forge stronger and better relationships, in addition to gaining a better understanding of myself. And there are those who find meaning and motivation in astrology as well. The problem with both systems is that they have capacity for healing as well as harm. I agree that MBTI being used for hiring is an issue and I speak up against it if it is raised as a topic around me. Still, I don't think that specific usage means the MBTI shouldn't be utilized at all, no moreso than I think we should outlaw pocket knives because people _can_ use them for self-harm. I agree with your point that focusing on bigger issues doesn't mean we should ignore smaller ones, but I don't see astrology as a decidedly harmful system. I just see it as one of many conceptual frameworks that entails some issues, mainly just from people using it in ways that are unkind or oblivious to their fellow beings.


I'm glad we agree that smaller issues shouldn't be ignored, though did you see the whole video about the Chinese zodiac? That video shows examples of how it can be decidedly harmful. I don't think you would use it in such a manner, but literally millions of people do.
We know that it's not scientific at all, so how reliable can it be? I don't see how any typology system is ideal for relationships, least of all astrology. That being said, I'm glad that you have found MBTI beneficial on some level.
Naturally people find meaning in astrology, but it's not based on facts, so such meaning is empty. While I will give MBTI somewhat a benefit of a doubt, as you tell me it's helped you, certainly I do not believe astrology has any ability to heal anything. This really isn't the same thing as a pocket knife either. Knives are real tools that can be used for good, and are only harmful if one deliberately uses them in a harmful way (well there can be accidents too, such as when cooking).


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