# Stop Assigning all the negative traits to 3!



## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

normally, I am the one speaking out about how the Enneagram has become sugar coated and watered down from the original messages it was supposed to convey, but 3s are kind of the opposite, because they are the ones on whom all the negative traits of all the other types were dumped. 

probably the biggest things that strike me are:
*Myth:* "3s are narcissists"
*Reality:* that is 7, 8 and somewhat Sx 6. 3's self esteem is tied to their accomplishments, so all the empty compliments in the world won't really do them much good, and they know it. 

*Myth:* sociopathy is related to type 3
*Reality:*no, ASPD is related to type _8_ (and probably a bit to Sp 7 and Sx 6). in fact, most 3s are usually pretty nice and, undeath the layer of clammy politeness, fairly sensitive. 

*Myth:* 3s are grandiose
*Reality:* 3s are experts of deception, but they do this via showing most of the time, not telling. seriously though, have you guys eve met a correctly typed 3? most of them are dry as fuck, what could be considered "normal". their personalities are, for the most part, much more "safe", and they don't go prancing around in Lady Gaga or Madonna-esque clothing the way a more legitimately flamboyant type might.

*Myth: *"3s love attention and drama"
*Reality:* 3s like attention _at very specific times_. it's 2 and Sx 7 who love attention all the time and perform grandiose stunts for it. also, 3s typically do not like drama at all. it threatens their image, their contacts and the prospect of losing close friends, all of which are scary to a 3.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

:laughing: I guess it's true it tends to get a bit of a bad rep, yeah.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

I thought 4s were the scapegoats.


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

I like how people have to be way successful and a huge workaholic to even be considered as a 3. I know only "average" 3s, who aren't overly accomplished.

And they're not all super confident or materialistic, either. (Well, "materialistic" can be debated.)


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

emberfly said:


> I thought 4s were the scapegoats.


no, 4s _think_ they are the scapegoats (lots of 6s too)
well, more specifically: Social 4s think they are the scapegoat; Self Preservation 4s try to make themselves the scapegoat


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Paradigm said:


> I like how people have to be way successful and a huge workaholic to even be considered as a 3. I know only "average" 3s, who aren't overly accomplished.


agreed (the Sexual 3 in particular is less workaholic). this is one of the reasons why I don't like "Prestige" as the title for 3, because that implies some sort of high society socialite. I like the theme "Status" for Social 3 because 3s seek to be successful _within the context of their peer group_. a type 3 woman who grew up in a trailer is probably not going to aspire to become the head of a high fashion business and turn into Cruela de Vil (who is 8w7 Sx/Sp imo)



> And they're not all super confident or materialistic, either. (Well, "materialistic" can be debated.)


yes! most of the time, 3's confidence is more careful (though probably least of all for Social 3, because they're typically a bit more extroverted and have an easier time marketing themselves) than the confidence of an 8 or Sexual 6.


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## Flowerpot92 (Oct 15, 2013)

That's an interesting point. I know four type 3s and two of them are close friends of mine. One I would trust with my life and the other I love dearly but has something emotionally threatening about her. I guess it must be their stackings and their ambitions. Her accomplishments makes me happy but sometimes I feel like something is off, like we cannot be close. I cannot put words on it but it feels like she wouldn't accept me at my worst and instead, would work hard to change me into the ideal me and that she knows better. Then again, I may be projecting...

EDIT: I am pretty sure she has a very strong Te, and paradoxically very strong Fe as well. She can manipulate people into doing the socially right thing like no one else. She is one of the most driven people I know. She is also very candid, but can be ruthless when it is needed. ESTJ type 3?


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

@_Swordsman of Mana_ this is a really high quality post. Tip of the hat. 



> *Myth:* 3s are grandiose
> *Reality:* 3s are experts of deception, but they do this via showing most of the time, not telling. seriously though, have you guys eve met a correctly typed 3? most of them are dry as fuck, what could be considered "normal". their personalities are, for the most part, much more "safe", and they don't go prancing around in Lady Gaga or Madonna-esque clothing the way a more legitimately flamboyant type might.


Yes, and you're right they aren't, actually, very outlandish. As much as I enjoy listening to 3's speak to an audience and find interest in the way they say what they say, I can't say I've ever had a one on one, non performative conversation with a 3 that made me want to learn more about them as a person. I don't mean that as a slight to the type, but to say that it's difficult to get past the mainstreamness or task orientation of what - not how - they communicate. I think that's difficult for them too at times TBH. 

Somewhere in Naranjo is a blurb about 3's keeping their lives for the most part conservatively progressive. They don't push the boundaries of normalcy very far if at all, although they want excellence within them. I think of yuppie culture (along with some 1's and 7's) for the social and/or Self Pres 3, but it wouldn't have to be that grandiose. Some of them, I agree, are just "normal" people in the most literal sense of the word, and for that matter not even that well-accomplished outside of their sphere. 

Describing this is tricky, because we have 3's that are very creative and novel within their fields, and you have to look at the person not what they do.



> *Myth: sociopathy is related to type 3
> Reality:no, ASPD is related to type 8 (and probably a bit to Sp 7 and Sx 6). in fact, most 3s are usually pretty nice and, undeath the layer of clammy politeness, fairly sensitive. *


To add to this, one thing I associate with 3's is the "coolness" factor - the non-judgmental, no problem kind it's all good of demeanor they give off. The passion is lying, so it's hard to know how little they truly do sweat other peoples' stupidities, but I've been in a number of situations ranting about how idiotic someone else is, and it's the 3 - not the 2, 6, 7, or 9 - who says "they mean well," or ignores the negatives at hand and redirects it back to a goal. 

Again hard to tell, but I'd go so far as to say that a number of 3's actually are genuinely nice people. At least as long as there's nothing at stake for them.


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## sailaway (Aug 17, 2013)

I fucking love 3s. Fav type prolly.


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> 3s seek to be successful _within the context of their peer group_.


Yeah, that's a great way of putting it. For some, of course, that's not always enough, but it seems to be for the majority. Even the "success" can vary: for some it's being well-known, for others it's being well-accomplished, and so on. It's not always (or even usually) about being the beautiful, popular, rich, top-of-the-rung person all at once.



Figure said:


> To add to this, one thing I associate with 3's is the "coolness" factor - the non-judgmental, no problem kind it's all good of demeanor they give off. The passion is lying, so it's hard to know how little they truly do sweat other peoples' stupidities, but I've been in a number of situations ranting about how idiotic someone else is, and it's the 3 - not the 2, 6, 7, or 9 - who says "they mean well," or ignores the negatives at hand and redirects it back to a goal.
> Again hard to tell, but I'd go so far as to say that a number of 3's actually are genuinely nice people. At least as long as there's nothing at stake for them.


Yup, many of them are nice people. I find a some of them have a hidden "judgemental" side, though -- they're not all as accepting as they seem, though some are. My uncle (3w4) is one of those seemingly accepting but ultimately disdainful 3s: he'll totally be nice to your face, but he'll avoid you pretty hard if you're not part of his view of what's right. Meanwhile, I have a relatively egalitarian 3w2 friend (who pretty much just hates stupidity in people and that's it), and another 3w2 friend who used to be rather close-minded but opened up once exposed to more diversity (who sometimes struggles with "weird people" but tries not to).

Of course, I don't mean to imply it's a 3w2 vs. 3w4 difference, but I'm a hermit and thus my sample size is small.

I will say, though... _All _ 3s are sensitive if you manage to get close to them, like the OP says :tongue: It's kinda funny / disconcerting when they go from their usual "yeah I got this" demeanor into their "insecure and anxious" side.
(Disclaimer: The ones I know are 6-fixed, which may skew this paragraph.)


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## Grain of Sugar (Sep 17, 2013)

*clap* Recently read a type 3 description and there was zero positivity in it.


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## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

To be fair though, all types have the potential to be narcissists, to love attention, or to be psychopaths.

i.e. I'm a 9 and I secretly love attention, if I'm honest with myself. So you just dont know.


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## The Scorched Earth (May 17, 2010)

I must say I'm liking this mini-renaissance/rehabilitation of the 3. It makes the type seem less "icky" and maybe more people will identify with it. Maybe it'll lead to the 3 subforum actually being active...


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## The Scorched Earth (May 17, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> *Myth:* 3s are grandiose
> *Reality:* 3s are experts of deception, but they do this via showing most of the time, not telling. seriously though, have you guys eve met a correctly typed 3? most of them are dry as fuck, what could be considered "normal". their personalities are, for the most part, much more "safe", and they don't go prancing around in Lady Gaga or Madonna-esque clothing the way a more legitimately flamboyant type might.
> 
> *Myth: *"3s love attention and drama"
> *Reality:* 3s like attention _at very specific times_. it's 2 and Sx 7 who love attention all the time and perform grandiose stunts for it. also, 3s typically do not like drama at all. it threatens their image, their contacts and the prospect of losing close friends, all of which are scary to a 3.


These probably explain why I enjoy dramatic works of art and sport but not drama in real life. All the grandiosity and flair for the theatrical I have are (mostly) in my head.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Sheesh. Is this because of my post about Voldemort? 

You know, most of what I write is actually substantiated by either my own personal observations, or else has been noted in many sources. Nobody is suggesting that all 3s are bad, particularly not me. 

I'd also like to add that most types really do have an ugly side, which, unlike current thinking on these forums, actually isn't all that common. We're not all secretly fucked up--most of us are just average which some unpleasant tendencies and also some good points. Getting to pathological levels takes quite some doing, and that includes disorders like ASPD. Sixes, 7s and 8s don't inherently have ASPD anymore than 3s. 

No type is better or worse than another, and at average levels, most of us aren't really "stereotypes" and reading descriptions would give a skewed impression of what any one of us is really about.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

The Typeless Wonder said:


> Sheesh. Is this because of my post about Voldemort?


that was a drop in the bucket



> You know, most of what I write is actually substantiated by either my own personal observations, or else has been noted in
> many sources. Nobody is suggesting that all 3s are bad, particularly not me.


I'm aware, but they are likely sources I would consider a bit white washed 



> I'd also like to add that most types really do have an ugly side, which, unlike current thinking on these forums, actually isn't all that common. We're not all secretly fucked up--most of us are just average which some unpleasant tendencies and also some good points. Getting to pathological levels takes quite some doing, and that includes disorders like ASPD. Sixes, 7s and 8s don't inherently have ASPD anymore than 3s.


Enneagram can be thought of as your "inner monster", and the inner monster of 8s is far more ASPD than 3s. 



> No type is better or worse than another, and at average levels, most of us aren't really "stereotypes" and reading descriptions would give a skewed impression of what any one of us is really about.


I would disagree with this. I think most people in the grip act very stereotypically most of the time (in one way or another. it's not going to look exactly the same of course, particularly between core types of different instinctual stackings).


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

charlie.elliot said:


> To be fair though, all types have the potential to be narcissists, to love attention, or to be psychopaths.
> i.e. I'm a 9 and I secretly love attention, if I'm honest with myself. So you just dont know.


_in theory_, any type could become a narcissist, but in reality, the chances of a 9 becoming a narcissist are statistically insignificant. even the best description must be read with a sense of probability and proportion.


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## hal0hal0 (Sep 1, 2012)

> *Myth: *"3s love attention and drama"
> *Reality:* 3s like attention _at very specific times_. it's 2 and Sx 7 who love attention all the time and perform grandiose stunts for it. also, 3s typically do not like drama at all. it threatens their image, their contacts and the prospect of losing close friends, all of which are scary to a 3.


Pre-fucking-cisely! Excellent post. The 3 I generally find more reserved and cautious in its image, whereas the 2 is more the exhibitionist (although sure, a 2 disappear into the background and work behind the scenes as well). But Pride I generally find more... hm... flamboyant than Vanity. Vanity is more about the overfixation upon the externalized image (i.e., classically, having accomplished this or that and checked it off the list).



Swordsman of Mana said:


> *Myth:* sociopathy is related to type 3
> *Reality:*no, ASPD is related to type _8_ (and probably a bit to Sp 7 and Sx 6). in fact, most 3s are usually pretty nice and, undeath the layer of *clammy politeness*, fairly sensitive.
> 
> *Myth:* 3s are grandiose
> *Reality:* 3s are experts of deception, but they do this via showing most of the time, not telling. seriously though, have you guys eve met a correctly typed 3? *most of them are dry as fuck*, what could be considered "normal". their personalities are, for the most part, much more "safe", and they don't go prancing around in Lady Gaga or Madonna-esque clothing the way a more legitimately flamboyant type might.


Haha, I have noticed this with most 3s (especially the clammy politeness), however there's the occasional one that is pretty darn inspirational. I think it could be the competency triad in general... I see the harmonic triads, loosely speaking, as follows:

Reactive triad = false/overinflated negativity (i.e., devil's advocate, serial contrarian, etc.)

Positive outlook = false/overinflated positivity (i.e., Naranjo's description of "overflowing generosity" for type 2)

Competency triad = false-overly "neutral"


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## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> _in theory_, any type could become a narcissist, but in reality, the chances of a 9 becoming a narcissist are statistically insignificant. even the best description must be read with a sense of probability and proportion.


Really, though, everyone is a narcissist, except for someone completely enlightened (if such a person exists). That's why they call it an "ego."

But I get your point. :wink:


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I'm aware, but they are likely sources I would consider a bit white washed


If you consider Riso and Hudson, Helen Palmer, Naranjo, Maitri, David Daniels, Beatrice Chestnut, Goldberg, and a whole host of other established authors to be "white washed", then yes. 



> Enneagram can be thought of as your "inner monster", and the inner monster of 8s is far more ASPD than 3s.


Actually, enneagram seems to be nothing more than your psychological background and orientation toward life. That the enneagram is your "inner monster" has not been said by _any_ of the authors I've read. Please, let's not mythologize the types.



> I would disagree with this. I think most people in the grip act very stereotypically most of the time (in one way or another. it's not going to look exactly the same of course, particularly between core types of different instinctual stackings).


Then why are there so many unknowns? I personally know very few people who are truly stereotypical, even while they face the issues of their type.

Do _you_ feel a stereotype? And also, what would you consider a stereotypical 3 to look like?


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

The Typeless Wonder said:


> If you consider Riso and Hudson, Helen Palmer, Naranjo, Maitri, David Daniels, Beatrice Chestnut, Goldberg, and a whole host of other established authors to be "white washed", then yes.


Riso and Hudson: yes! (particularly their 2, 7 and 8 descriptions....ugh)
Naranjo, Maitri and Chestnut: no (though I know for a fact that Chestnut and Naranjo do not paint 3s are sociopathic, or 8s are heroic. 3s are others-centric and vanity is "living for the eyes of others"...this bent is neither narcissistic or sociopathic in nature)

I will grant you a concession though: _Social_ 8s are often _very_ heroic, but they are the counter type among the 8s. Sexual 8 is more "provocative, charismatic hedonist" and Self Preservation 8 is more "sinister predator" (speaking broadly in terms of vibe. if goes without saying their makeup is more complicated than that). both have a much more amoral outlook of life and are appealing because they are the bad boys of the Enneagram (not exclusively of course. many types can have a more "bad" reputation. Sexual 2 and Sexual 6 come to mind immediately). 



> Actually, enneagram seems to be nothing more than your psychological background and orientation toward life. That the enneagram is your "inner monster" has not been said by _any_ of the authors I've read. Please, let's not mythologize the types.


what we're saying is not mutually exclusive (both are true). I like the phrase "orientation toward life", because that sums it up aptly, but the real meat of the Enneagram comes from analyzing the _pitfalls_ and _blind spots_ associated with one's orientation to life and how to see the world in a broader context for the sake of relieving stress and inner turmoil and improving productivity and relationships. 
that said, I can admit I have a tendency to overemphasize the negative, because the ways in which people fucked up is far more interesting to me...but not at the expense of being right.



> Then why are there so many unknowns? I personally know very few people who are truly stereotypical, even while they face the issues of their type.


I know very many people who are stereotypical, because the hardwiring of their type gets in the way of expressing their true nature (I realize this sounds a bit vague, but it's hard to describe more crisply). 

btw, I'm not saying that _everything_ or even most things about most people are stereotypical (I am neither that cynical nor that condescending), more that most people exhibit a number of clear stereotypes associated with whatever group they are a part of.



> Do _you_ feel a stereotype?


in many ways, yes. 



> And also, what would you consider a stereotypical 3 to look like?


Sexual 3: Reese Witherspoon, Bradley Cooper 
Social 3: Mitt Romney, Barbara Walters
Self Preservation 3: Lisa Simpson, Tiger Woods


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> Riso and Hudson: yes! (particularly their 2, 7 and 8 descriptions....ugh)
> Naranjo, Maitri and Chestnut: no (though I know for a fact that Chestnut and Naranjo do not paint 3s are sociopathic, or 8s are heroic. 3s are others-centric and vanity is "living for the eyes of others"...this bent is neither narcissistic or sociopathic in nature)


Riso and Hudson aren't as bad as everyone has been saying. Most of their words are completely original research, and they have revised their ideas many times since the publication of their first books.

But did you read the link I gave you? The clinical presentation of "psychopath" actually is closer in line to 3 than 8, including what authors such as Naranjo and especially Palmer have to say about it. Just because it's filed under ASPD, doesn't necessarily mean that it's been correctly understood.

As to the subtypes, I don't like to discuss them. They are not nearly as regular and clear cut as some authors, currently most notable among them, Chestnut, would have us think.



> what we're saying is not mutually exclusive (both are true). I like the phrase "orientation toward life", because that sums it up aptly, but the real meat of the Enneagram comes from analyzing the _pitfalls_ and _blind spots_ associated with one's orientation to life and how to see the world in a broader context for the sake of relieving stress and inner turmoil and improving productivity and relationships.
> that said, I can admit I have a tendency to overemphasize the negative, because the ways in which people fucked up is far more interesting to me...but not at the expense of being right.


Well I for one find that expressing the types as "what's wrong with you" leads to mistyping and an over-inflation of the importance of the types. yes, it can give you certain blindspots and unpleasant tendencies, but just as much, it can give you positive attributes and attention toward things that people of other types will miss. If they were not biologically necessary for our own survival, I doubt we'd have different types at all!

Though, I promise you I am fucked up in a lot of non-enneagram ways.



> I know very many people who are stereotypical, because the hardwiring of their type gets in the way of expressing their true nature (I realize this sounds a bit vague, but it's hard to describe more crisply).


If you say so.



> btw, I'm not saying that _everything_ or even most things about most people are stereotypical (I am neither that cynical nor that condescending), more that most people exhibit a number of clear stereotypes associated with whatever group they are a part of.


Well stereotypes exist for a reason, but then it's more than fair to say some things about 3s--I've met ones that have really come across as being in love with themselves and their achievements. (As I said on another thread, this was a less-healthy individual I'm thinking of here. A second 3 I know isn't like this at all, and is a positive person who is genuinely committed to animal welfare and has a good eye for presentation and an ability to work long hours and make it look easy.) Stereotypes exist, but most of us aren't carbon cut outs.



> in many ways, yes.


I thought you were unsure of your type, though? In what ways are you stereotypical?



> Sexual 3: Reese Witherspoon, Bradley Cooper
> Social 3: Mitt Romney, Barbara Walters
> Self Preservation 3: Lisa Simpson, Tiger Woods


Too bad I don't know many of these people (hate celebs). I thought Lisa was a 1!


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

The Typeless Wonder said:


> But did you read the link I gave you? The clinical presentation of "psychopath" actually is closer in line to 3 than 8, including what authors such as Naranjo and especially Palmer have to say about it. Just because it's filed under ASPD, doesn't necessarily mean that it's been correctly understood.


I'm skeptical, but I will have a look



> As to the subtypes, I don't like to discuss them. They are not nearly as regular and clear cut as some authors, currently most notable among them, Chestnut, would have us think.


at this point, discussing subtypes would be a waste of time, so I can agree to disagree



> Well I for one find that expressing the types as "what's wrong with you" leads to mistyping and an over-inflation of the importance of the types. yes, it can give you certain blindspots and unpleasant tendencies, but just as much, it can give you positive attributes and attention toward things that people of other types will miss. If they were not biologically necessary for our own survival, I doubt we'd have different types at all!


I think going by the white washed, overly positive descriptions is what really causes people to mistype. reading a good description of your type should be a bit of a smack in the face (like "agh! damn, that's me....")



> Well stereotypes exist for a reason, but then it's more than fair to say some things about 3s--I've met ones that have really come across as being in love with themselves and their achievements. (As I said on another thread, this was a less-healthy individual I'm thinking of here. A second 3 I know isn't like this at all, and is a positive person who is genuinely committed to animal welfare and has a good eye for presentation and an ability to work long hours and make it look easy.) Stereotypes exist, but most of us aren't carbon cut outs.


I guess I would argue that most of these individuals are likely mistyped 2s, 7s and 8s, but I don't want to say that as I haven't actually met them. 



> I thought you were unsure of your type, though? In what ways are you stereotypical?


well, I can be a bit of a hipster sometimes, thinking that I am "so unique" and criticizing mainstream ideologies and trends like I'm so much better than everyone while I continually broadcast my individuality (4 fix says hi :tongue: ). granted, I don't think this is the _main_ drive of most of my behaviors (if I really like something which is mainstream, I have no problem saying it. for example, I love corny vampire movies :laughing: ), but it's certain there, and it's a big contributor to my arrogance



> Too bad I don't know many of these people (hate celebs). I thought Lisa was a 1!


Sp 3 is the 1-ish, "Role Model" of the 3s. they are "anti-vanity" and want to be seen as virtuous, competent and responsible. unlike Social 3s, they are less keen on promoting themselves directly and typically work more behind the scenes (if the Social or Sexual 3 is the lead actor in the play, the Self Preservation 3 is the guy behind the set doing the lighting. he doesn't need the accolades and frequent "attaboys" of the other subtypes, but he will often become frustrated that his work is not thoroughly appreciated, and, if anything, could use a bit _more_ self promotion)
Sp 1 is possible too though (Sp 1 and Sp 3 can look virtually identical, but I lean Sp 3 for


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I'm skeptical, but I will have a look


Have a think about how it could fit the enneagram too (I am wary of strictly correlating the enneagram to the DSM, but it's certainly compelling to think about). It's worth it.



> at this point, discussing subtypes would be a waste of time, so I can agree to disagree


I agree, let's save the discussion for later.



> I think going by the white washed, overly positive descriptions is what really causes people to mistype. reading a good description of your type should be a bit of a smack in the face (like "agh! damn, that's me....")


See, that's something I've only come across on the internet. "OMG I'm type X, my life is OVER". 

What I've heard from practitioners and correctly typed people irl has been that it feels embarrassing, like someone has been spying on you. Your whole inner reality is suddenly there for the whole world to see. That doesn't mean it will necessarily generate pain. Some people only find it hilarious how weirdly accurate it is. 

I mean, everyone will have a different response, most likely, so some could feel pained by their discoveries. But that might indicate another issue beneath enneagram stuff. And there are those who have to logically suss out their type and who may never experience a huge revelation at all.

I think the best answer here is to educate oneself and come to a full understanding of the types, positive and negative qualities, as well as what it actually entails to have that sort of a mentality. Self-exploration is in order, too, of course; I understand that workshops are extremely productive as well (haven't had the ability to go to any myself). On a personal note, I have no idea what I am, but I can tell you that I feel worst about being types that I don't actually think I am. So, in my own case, I really _don't_ want to type by "what feels worst", when that doesn't make sense in other ways.

(I put this question on another forum, incidentally, and people seemed to think this "devastated and ashamed to find your type" stuff was completely bonkers. Just fwiw.)



> I guess I would argue that most of these individuals are likely mistyped 2s, 7s and 8s, but I don't want to say that as I haven't actually met them.


They were most definitely 3s. Indisputably. Both of them. 

Arguably, there may be _other_ people I thought were 3s that actually weren't, but I don't like to use anyone as an example without being sure of their type.



> well, I can be a bit of a hipster sometimes, thinking that I am "so unique" and criticizing mainstream ideologies and trends like I'm so much better than everyone while I continually broadcast my individuality (4 fix says hi :tongue: ). granted, I don't think this is the _main_ drive of most of my behaviors (if I really like something which is mainstream, I have no problem saying it. for example, I love corny vampire movies :laughing: ), but it's certain there, and it's a big contributor to my arrogance


Hey cool. I'm a 4 stereotype, too (reasons to be suspicious of it as a core, though). If I have a core type at all, I certainly wouldn't be a stereotype.



> Sp 3 is the 1-ish, "Role Model" of the 3s. they are "anti-vanity" and want to be seen as virtuous, competent and responsible. unlike Social 3s, they are less keen on promoting themselves directly and typically work more behind the scenes (if the Social or Sexual 3 is the lead actor in the play, the Self Preservation 3 is the guy behind the set doing the lighting. he doesn't need the accolades and frequent "attaboys" of the other subtypes, but he will often become frustrated that his work is not thoroughly appreciated, and, if anything, could use a bit _more_ self promotion)
> Sp 1 is possible too though (Sp 1 and Sp 3 can look virtually identical, but I lean Sp 3 for


I'd need you to tell me in your own words how you see 3 in her because I know what the 3 subtypes are, but I don't see it in Lisa. I see a committed social crusader. I've always thought she was a soc 1 (though, like Harry Potter, she is of course a character and prone to change form). 

Anyway, I don't want to derail your thread anymore, so I'll shut up.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

@The Typeless Wonder


> I'd need you to tell me in your own words how you see 3 in her because I know what the 3 subtypes are, but I don't see it in Lisa. I see a committed social crusader. I've always thought she was a soc 1 (though, like Harry Potter, she is of course a character and prone to change form).


she is 3-ish because she is an over achiever who is obsessed with grades and being a model student (one episode is particularly telling where they take away grades and she freaks the fuck out because getting high grades is basically where she gets her self esteem from)



> See, that's something I've only come across on the internet. "OMG I'm type X, my life is OVER".
> 
> What I've heard from practitioners and correctly typed people irl has been that it feels embarrassing, like someone has been spying on you. Your whole inner reality is suddenly there for the whole world to see. That doesn't mean it will necessarily generate pain. Some people only find it hilarious how weirdly accurate it is.
> I mean, everyone will have a different response, most likely, so some could feel pained by their discoveries. But that might indicate another issue beneath enneagram stuff. And there are those who have to logically suss out their type and who may never experience a huge revelation at all.
> ...


we basically said the same thing. just because my wording is more blunt doesn't mean I disagree with you

Edit: you wanted me to look at a link. where is it?


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @The Typeless Wonder
> 
> she is 3-ish because she is an over achiever who is obsessed with grades and being a model student (one episode is particularly telling where they take away grades and she freaks the fuck out because getting high grades is basically where she gets her self esteem from)


Okay. Thank you.




> we basically said the same thing. just because my wording is more blunt doesn't mean I disagree with you
> 
> Edit: you wanted me to look at a link. where is it?


I don't think your wording is blunt, it's misleading. Unless you're reading "the positive enneagram" by Susan Rhodes, most descriptions aren't "white washed" (meaning _censored to look "nicer"_). "Smack in the face" generally implies humiliating _pain_. If you'd said "psychic shock", however, I'd be in full agreement.

And, the link was in the other post I wrote re: Voldemort.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

The Typeless Wonder said:


> I don't think your wording is blunt, it's misleading. Unless you're reading "the positive enneagram" by Susan Rhodes, most descriptions aren't "white washed" (meaning _censored to look "nicer"_). "Smack in the face" generally implies humiliating _pain_. If you'd said "psychic shock", however, I'd be in full agreement.
> And, the link was in the other post I wrote re: Voldemort.


this reinforces my opinion that you have trouble with blunt wording even further. "smack in the face" is a common expression people use to describe an uncomfortable moment of self awareness. 
example: "the scarcity of jobs I could find searching these last few months really smacked me in the face and drove home the point that I need to go back to college"


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> this reinforces my opinion that you have trouble with blunt wording even further. "smack in the face" is a common expression people use to describe an uncomfortable moment of self awareness.
> example: "the scarcity of jobs I could find searching these last few months really smacked me in the face and drove home the point that I need to go back to college"


Lol I think that would qualify as an idiom (or metaphor, or perhaps both), which isn't really included in the "blunt wording" ideal :laughing:

As someone who didn't really feel distraught over typing as 6, I don't really enjoy the idea that everyone must be "gob smacked." Of course, one shouldn't exactly be prideful and wear it like a badge, but neutral is okay.

Edit: Nope, idiom. 
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/smack+in+the+face


> smack in the face
> Fig. something that will humiliate someone, often when it is considered deserved; an insult.
> Being rejected by Jane was a real smack in the face for Tom, who thought she was fond of him. Meg thought she was the best-qualified candidate for the job, and not getting it was a smack in the face.


Edit 2: You're both right! 
http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/smack+in+the+face.html


> Idiom Definitions for 'Smack in the face'
> If something is a smack in the face, it is a shock, usually one that impedes progress.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

@Paradigm
to be honest, I didn't think it was all that blunt myself. what is important is that _he_ perceived it as blunt because he opted for a much softer, carefully neutral way of saying the same thing and was unaware that there was no real difference in what we were saying


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @Paradigm
> to be honest, I didn't think it was all that blunt myself. what is important is that _he_ perceived it as blunt because he opted for a much softer, carefully neutral way of saying the same thing and was unaware that there was no real difference in what we were saying


LOL wtf. I just said I didn't perceive it as blunt. I perceived it as imprecise wording. Maybe I'm being a Nazi again, but I've just never heard it in terms of self-revelation, though I have heard it in terms of...well, what @Paradigm wrote.

Wow, this is turning into an interesting thread though.

Also, I think there was a difference in what we were saying, if you take the definition of "smack in the face" according to the dictionary above.


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## Arya (Oct 17, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> normally, I am the one speaking out about how the Enneagram has become sugar coated and watered down from the original messages it was supposed to convey, but 3s are kind of the opposite, because they are the ones on whom all the negative traits of all the other types were dumped.
> 
> probably the biggest things that strike me are:
> *Myth:* "3s are narcissists"
> ...


Someone finally says something about sixes and narcissism. You made my day. I feel like it's a topic that's been glossed over a lot, especially since a lot of the sixes on PerC have self esteem issues, but not all of us are like that. At all. I know plenty of arrogant sixes who will even admit to their own arrogance. And we're arrogant to the point we take it as a compliment.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

I never noticed. I see 3s as very industrious and dedicated to success. They can be some of the things on your list, but they don't automatically HAVE to be just because they're a type 3.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Arya said:


> Someone finally says something about sixes and narcissism. You made my day. I feel like it's a topic that's been glossed over a lot, especially since a lot of the sixes on PerC have self esteem issues, but not all of us are like that. At all. I know plenty of arrogant sixes who will even admit to their own arrogance. And we're arrogant to the point we take it as a compliment.


imo, this is actually quite common among Sexual 6 with an 8 fix


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Arya said:


> Someone finally says something about sixes and narcissism. You made my day. I feel like it's a topic that's been glossed over a lot, especially since a lot of the sixes on PerC have self esteem issues, but not all of us are like that. At all. I know plenty of arrogant sixes who will even admit to their own arrogance. And we're arrogant to the point we take it as a compliment.


7 is the type that is truly "narcissistic", in the sense of not only believing in one's own talents but feeling entitled to something based upon that. A 3 may _appear_ narcissistic in self-promotion mode in the less healthy levels (as I noted earlier in the thread, I've seen this in its ugliest mode), but in truth, the type has no sense of entitlement and feels that their lot in life depends on hard work. It doesn't surprise me, then, that 6s and 8s, which draw influence from 7, would be closer to being "narcissistic" than a 3.

I've been thinking about 6s and narcissism, actually. Most people laugh it down, but it seems to me that an over-awareness of consequences of one's actions (as some 6s report) also leads to an increased sense of one's own importance. If you feel like people are "out to get you", that's actually very self-centered. And if 6s tend toward low self-esteem...well low self-esteem can also spiral the other way into over-inflating oneself. "Both persecuted and grandiose" as Naranjo put it. Yet this never gets any attention. Thanks for saying something.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

the typeless wonder said:


> 7 is the type that is truly "narcissistic", in the sense of not only believing in one's own talents but feeling entitled to something based upon that. A 3 may _appear_ narcissistic in self-promotion mode in the less healthy levels, but in truth, the type has no sense of entitlement and feels that their lot in life depends on hard work. It doesn't surprise me, then, that 6s and 8s, which draw influence from 7, would be closer to being "narcissistic" than a 3.


yes!


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## Quang (Sep 4, 2014)

In Faurve's "Enneastyle" research, there are many similar themes and language between the types 3, 7, and 8. I believe there is something that related with narcissistic behavior possibly deriving from the ID-ness from all 3 types.

e.g.

3, 8: dynamic, confident, competent, creative, impressive, positive
7, 8: no limitation, stylish, cool, stimulation, challenges, fluidity
3, 7: dress for attention, chic, to stand out, independence


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## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

Threes are awesome...I don't get why there is a stigma towards them? But then again there's a clear stigma towards eights (8w here. Stop saying we all are easily angered! GRRRR!!!!!!), and probably all of the types. People get the wrong ideas and just run with them.


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## sodden (Jul 20, 2009)

Speaking for the 3 in my life:



Swordsman of Mana said:


> :
> *Myth:* "3s are narcissists"
> *Reality:* that is 7, 8 and somewhat Sx 6. 3's *self esteem is tied to their accomplishments, so all the empty compliments in the world won't really do them much good, and they know it. yes oh so much.*
> 
> ...


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## Pelopra (May 21, 2013)

Arya said:


> Someone finally says something about sixes and narcissism. You made my day. I feel like it's a topic that's been glossed over a lot, especially since a lot of the sixes on PerC have self esteem issues, but not all of us are like that. At all. I know plenty of arrogant sixes who will even admit to their own arrogance. And we're arrogant to the point we take it as a compliment.



but narcissism =/= arrogance...

at least if we're talking on the level of narcissistic personality disorder, I'm actually pretty sure that all 9 types would be equally susceptible-- can't think of any type that would, by virtue of their type, be less susceptible to it. hm, maybe with 9s/5s it would be less unbearable than other types (I'm basically just assuming that 9s/5s are easier to avoid-- if a narcissistic 9 or 5 is in a position of authority over you, though, you're still screwed).

NPDs are really unbearable people, though. I wouldn't go labeling any type as that, it's equivalent to labeling a type as "Sociopath".


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## Arya (Oct 17, 2012)

Pelopra said:


> but narcissism =/= arrogance...
> 
> at least if we're talking on the level of narcissistic personality disorder, I'm actually pretty sure that all 9 types would be equally susceptible-- can't think of any type that would, by virtue of their type, be less susceptible to it. hm, maybe with 9s/5s it would be less unbearable than other types (I'm basically just assuming that 9s/5s are easier to avoid-- if a narcissistic 9 or 5 is in a position of authority over you, though, you're still screwed).
> 
> NPDs are really unbearable people, though. I wouldn't go labeling any type as that, it's equivalent to labeling a type as "Sociopath".


I don't think we're quite talking the level of NPD. I'd hardly suggest all type sevens have NPD. Arrogance is probably a better term


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