# INTJ or INTP?



## Avian (Aug 4, 2012)

I'm making this thread because I'm stuck between INTJ and INTP, Coyote helped me a lot about a month ago. She seemed to feel strongly that I was INTJ, but there was a few instances where she could see INTP. Personally, although I know the cognitive functions of the two types are different, I'm still bouncing back and forth. I've concluded awhile ago, that tests are just pointers - it's better if I/you type ourselves or congregate with people who have a better handle on Jungian psychology. Here's the questionnaire I filled out;

*1) What aspect of your personality made you unsure of your type?*

I'm not entirely sure about my doubts, mainly because of slight discrepancies. An example that I can think of is how orderly INTJs can be vs INTP. With the J function there should be more order in my thoughts, materialistic things, and planning. Maybe I have a weak J, I don't know but it's little things like that which makes me reexamine certain issues.

*2) What do you yearn for in life? Why?*

The main thing I live for is information, without something intellectual occupying my mind at all times I might not know what to do with myself. A big part of all the knowledge is just for personal reasons, but a small part of me wants to be able to help others when they need advice or guidance in trying to solve their problems. 

I yearn for absolute freedom of my mind, to be the essence of an individual. Why? I don't really know, it's just always been important to me to be as unique as possible. Other than that I can say I don't yearn about the usual things people want in life, solitude is mostly what I'm going for.

*3) Think about a time where you felt like you were at your finest. Tell us what made you feel that way.*

To be honest, these last few years since I've gotten out of high school, have put me at my finest. I think it just has to do with the fact that I have much much more time to myself now, I'm always teaching myself in a quiet environment as opposed to the loud and obnoxious atmosphere of my classrooms, plus I'm telling myself what to think. I've made many choices which have had much better outcomes from what I had expected probably because I have less stress in my life at the moment. Physically I've never been healthier since I took the time to reevaluate my diet, and mentally I'm in another dimension altogether. That's about all I can say, right now my life is very ideal for me.

*4) What makes you feel inferior?*

Tough question because I'm so used to detaching my emotions which usually makes me indifferent to criticisms, other people's perceptions of me, so on and so forth. The only thing I can think of that on the odd occasion makes me feel inferior is dismissal of my knowledge without a rational reason. Maybe the other person doesn't like what I'm telling them so they get emotional then say something like "you don't know what you're talking about". A second thing just hit my mind, it's when others tell me what I *need* to do.

*5) What tends to weigh on your decisions? (Do you think about people, pro-cons, how you feel about it, etc.)*

I think about a lot of things when considering a decision I'm about to make, however a large portion of it is unknowable when it really comes to making the decision. I'll think about many variables ex; a) Is this logical or rational b) Am I the kind of person who wants to partake in this? c) Does it go against my morals and values? d) Will this drain too much of my energy? e) How is this going to affect me later on? These are surface questions to help with the decision but how I process the information and come to a conclusion is still a strong mystery to me, even until today.

*6) When working on a project what is normally your emphasis? Do you like to have control of the outcome?*

If it's a group project I'm usually indifferent to what the result is likely to be. In a classroom setting, for example, I was never leader of the team in a group assignment, and I never wanted to be either. I would always just do my part, mainly because in our school we were marked according to contribution, so I didn't have to worry about the incompetence of others. If it was graded as a whole then I'd probably step up and make sure everyone does what their supposed to. 

So it's highly situational in that aspect of teamwork. With a project that I'm working on by myself it's just infinitely better - my interests are in the right place, I've planned it beforehand, and I know what the outcome will be assuming I have done everything orderly, if the result isn't precisely what I expected I usually have back up plans. 

*7) Describe us a time where you had a lot of fun. How is your memory of it?*

I remember my uncle bringing me and my brother to Niagara Falls, his girlfriend just had a baby so we went down there to celebrate her birth and my birthday (the dates are close enough). We stayed in a hotel for three days. There was quite a bit that I experienced there, namely the outrageous prices. We went to see an interactive 3D movie, which was my first time seeing one, went to many different arcades, movies etc. The best part of it was the boat ride (I forget what it's called, something to do with maiden/fairy), I just wish they would have cruised closer to the waterfalls.

*8) When you want to learn something new, what feels more natural for you? (Are you more prone to be hands on, to theorize, to memorize, etc)*

I guess it depends, when I first started landscaping I needed to learn hands on because there isn't really any brains involved in lawn maintenance. However when it comes to learning something new in an academic platform, it's very different. I try to memorize what I think are relevant facts and information that I may need later on, or in many cases just to add to my collection of random facts. I theorize almost all the time, there's not too many ideas/concepts that I can't see myself rearranging or adding a bit of my own perspective to have it more well rounded. Other than that I just need to collect as many resources as possible on the given topic, sort them out according to my method of what is deemed useful, and then plow through it all.

*9) How organized do you to think of yourself as?*

Fairly organized but to others it isn't really noticeable. I'll keep my room looking like a disaster until I think it's time to properly clean it, when I do clean it everything gets put away in some kind of chronological order. My living space is usually organized, but it's also usually disorganized. I guess I just have a fetish for wrecking order then putting it back to how it was supposed to be. When it comes to clothes I generally don't look like an organized person, I wear simple stuff but every once in a while I will kind of try to put some more thought in my appearance (not that I care much at all to begin with) but I'm often given the same line..."uhh that doesn't exactly match". 

All in all - fairly organized. I keep certain things that I want to organize, organized, all the time. Other times it goes through a cycle of organized - disorganized. It's a bit odd when I really think about it, I have my playlists on my iPod chronologically ordered but the books on my bookshelf are not. Things like that.

*10) How do you judge new ideas? You try to understand the principles behind it to see if they make sense or do you look for information that supports it?*

I try to judge them from a non-biased perspective, sometimes I succeed, sometimes I fail. When I encounter a new idea, I try to understand the principles behind it because to a certain extent it has to "make sense" that is, to be able to fit within some sort of logical, rational, or emotionally detached context. I like abstract concepts and theories, mainly for the reason that outlandish constructs are sometimes interesting in a sort of disorderly way - it doesn't have to fit in with what's widely accepted, or for that matter it doesn't even need to be linear like fractal geometry. On the other hand information that supports the new idea is vital as well. I need to know that there is some kind of empirical data to support the idea, from there it has more room to grow.

Many times just by hearing another persons suggested idea I can judge it on the spot. I get a barrage of images or symbols and they all collide so that I can make a decision.

*11) You find harmony by making sure everyone is doing fine and belonging to a given group or by making sure that you follow what you believe and being yourself?*

I certainly find harmony in following what I think I should be doing, any situation where I'm out of my element can make finding peace difficult, this tends to happen mostly when something I've planned out doesn't go according to plan. An example would be this Friday that just passed, I wasn't supposed to work so instead I planned on staying in most of the day and inviting a friend over. Even though I was completely energized I performed in a very lackluster manner, without everything falling into place the disharmony of my plans crushed my motivation for doing the job properly.

I don't belong to any groups, outside of my family and circle of friends I could care quite a bit less about how everyone else is doing. More often then not I observe others (I'm 19, our generation is...there's no adjectives for it) fabricating drama knowingly or unknowingly which results in gossip/rumours/etc, so logically if you are creating disharmony that's what you're going to get.

My idea of harmony is a quiet room where I'm by myself, disharmony is those noisy crowds, hateful people etc.

*12) Are you the kind that thinks before speaking or do you speak before thinking? Do you prefer one-on-one communication or group discussions?*

Almost everything I say is thought out or previously planned. There will be instances where I try to map out a forthcoming conversation. There's occasions where I don't think about what I'm going to say, that's the occurrence where all eyes are on me, in a real life setting I'm described as intelligent so it must come across as a shock when stupidity flys out of my mouth. 

I prefer one-on-one, it's simply much easier to exchange ideas, have debates, or get to know the other person better. Instead of expending energy on multiple other people (trying to figure out why they are talking about whatever it is they're saying) I can focus my energy onto that person, whereas in group discussions I tend to perceive myself as trying to accommodate all of the members of the group. It's possible but it takes more energy to do it. My biggest problem with group discussions is how fast the topic changes, I want to go deep in the ocean but in a group it seems people want to just get their feet wet.

*13) Do you jump into action right away or do you like to know where are you jumping before leaping? Does action speaks more than words?*

I like to know what I'm getting into before jumping into it, I put a considerable amount of energy into figuring out if it's the right thing I want to do. A good example is when I'm about to purchase a book, I look for reviews, arguments for or against, I match the price with other stores to see if I'm getting a good deal. 

Does action speak louder than words? Not at all for me, I'm rarely caught even talking. If I had to put a finger on it I'd say words speak louder (in the back of my mind I want to say its situational). Word of mouth is good, but a mouth full of words is better.

*14) It's Saturday. You're at home, and your favorite show is about to start. Your friends call you for a night out. What will you do?*

Well with my small circle of friends we just congregate. Sometimes we go to the movies and do a few other activities, nothing major. However, there are other occasions where I'm asked to go to a club or bar, it's always a club or bar, which I instantly say no to. It doesn't happen as often as when I knew these friends less personally from years ago, so they know I'm never up to it. 

*15) How do you act when you're stressed out?*

When I'm stressed out I get very frustrated by things easily, I rarely act out physically so I'm not the type of person to break things, but on occasion I do. I also get very disoriented in my thoughts, and until I get those realigned I'll continue to be stressed. Personally with others I get very impatient, and you better not ask me to repeat something or I might steal your brain!

*16) What makes you dislike the personalities of some people?*

Hmm...intelligence is really all I can think of, to me if you have something interesting about what kind of thoughts you harbour then it's much more appealing to me. It's always when the other person is insecure, generally abrasive, and lusts for a lack of knowledge that I dislike. I know not to judge a book by its cover but there are certain trends and fashion that scream back at me "Douchebag!", chances are if the person dresses like a gangster then that's probably going to shape your personality in many ways. It's not gangsters specifically, it's when the person is trying to play a role in life that they think is right, instead of being themselves. 

*17) Is there anything you really like talking about with other people?*

Philosophy, social sciences, physics, far too many to list but my favourite thing to talk about is the nature of this reality, since the day I came out of the womb I have not trusted 3D.

*18) What kind of things do pay the least attention to in your life*

My fashion sense, what people think about my intellectual preferences, achievements of materialism, being popular, social functions, and popular culture. This might seem like an odd one - impressing others based on their perception, I don't need to impress the unimpressed.

*19) How do your friends perceive you? What is wrong about their perception? ? What would your friends never say about your personality ?*

In my earlier days I was perceived as a narcissistic asshole, no perception at the time about that is wrong. My friends these days perceive me as a good source of information and advice. They know I'm a far better listener than the walls! As for what they would never say? They'd never say that I was an aggressive person, that I'm emotionally involved, that I hold grudges, and they would never say that I can lose a debate/argument.

*20) You got a whole day to do whatever you like. What kind of activities do you feel like doing?*

I'll do research on what I'm normally into, maybe find a few new theories to play around with. Read a book, sometimes I'll go for a short walk, do my laundry and all that kind of stuff. Basically I do nothing, that's an activity right? 

So there's my answers to one of the questionnaires, I'm thinking about filling another out just in case. If you need extra information just ask.


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## xEmptiness (Jul 26, 2012)

It's too structured and direct to be INTP.
I don't even see a hint of Ne.


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## Avian (Aug 4, 2012)

xEmptiness said:


> It's too structured and direct to be INTP.
> I don't even see a hint of Ne.


So on the type itself, what do you think?

Let's see if I can get @LeaT @Acerbusvenator for multiple opinions.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

INTJs are the percievers and INTPs the judgers, MBTI screwed things things up when they decided to associate introverts with their auxiliary, not everyone develops their fast enough. The only thing for you to do is studying the functions (look at socionics and Jung too) and your thought processes.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

oooh, I feel honored that I'm mentioned. Usually it's just LeaT that gets mentioned or someone else and I sit on the side kinda offended 

Anyways, I just looked at the basic structure of how you wrote. Seemed quite much like Te rather than Ti.
You formulated it so nicely, lol.
I think INTPs write in a kinda less structured way... and less formal.
Also, when you talk you kinda pick out the details in a Se kind of way.

I'd guess INTJ.
Your way of talking isn't really expanding (Ne) either, you just kinda state things and then start to dig analyzed it in a Ni kind of way.


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## Avian (Aug 4, 2012)

Boolean11 said:


> INTJs are the percievers and INTPs the judgers, MBTI screwed things things up when they decided to associate introverts with their auxiliary, not everyone develops their fast enough. The only thing for you to do is studying the functions (look at socionics and Jung too) and your thought processes.


I've been reading the function descriptions in Carl Jungs' Psychological Types, I haven't gone through them all yet but I'm getting there. I'm simply aware that there are people on this forum who are exceptionally outstanding when typing others. Bottom line, I've studied quite a bit but I still don't have the certainty to completely type myself. So even if no one suggests a definitive type, I can at least use the feedback to further my understanding.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

@_Avian_ could you please fill out a different questionnaire such as mine or Spades' because this one is more about enneagram than functions. It doesn't really give much insight into how you reason about certain things but is more about motivations and fears. 

Anyway, from what I read from the questionnaire you filed out, I feel INTJ is a closer match than INTP, although I could also see why ISTP could somehow fit. Your T seems to lean more on the Ti side of life than Te at times.

Fairly certain you're enneagram 5w6 sp/so though.


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## Avian (Aug 4, 2012)

LeaT said:


> @_Avian_ could you please fill out a different questionnaire such as mine or Spades' because this one is more about enneagram than functions. It doesn't really give much insight into how you reason about certain things but is more about motivations and fears.
> 
> Anyway, from what I read from the questionnaire you filed out, I feel INTJ is a closer match than INTP, although I could also see why ISTP could somehow fit. Your T seems to lean more on the Ti side of life than Te at times.
> 
> Fairly certain you're enneagram 5w6 sp/so though.


Sure, I'll fill out yours and post it when I'm done. ISTP is kind of shocking since my step sister is an ISTP, we don't get along at all. She could be mistyped, though I couldn't see myself as a sensor (if that's what it ends up being, I'd be shocked), but I know that was based on a questionnaire that was meant more for enneagram. At least the opinion of INTJ is consistent so far.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Avian said:


> Sure, I'll fill out yours and post it when I'm done. ISTP is kind of shocking since my step sister is an ISTP, we don't get along at all. She could be mistyped, though I couldn't see myself as a sensor (if that's what it ends up being, I'd be shocked), but I know that was based on a questionnaire that was meant more for enneagram. At least the opinion of INTJ is consistent so far.


Well, ISTP is the only one type that can utilize Ni quite well along with Ti, ergo why I brought it up. There's also INFJ but you don't come off as a feeler. Not by far. @_Probably_ seems to be more of an NiTi user without clearly being an INTJ too, for example, and his Ni and Ti are not particularly unhealthy, as an example. These people are just kind of hard to type since there is no NiTi type in the MBTI system.


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## OrangeCrazy (Sep 30, 2012)

You sound VERY INTJ to me, this is coming from someone with lots of experience with INTJs. So...that's my two bits! ^_^


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

Avian said:


> I've been reading the function descriptions in Carl Jungs' Psychological Types, I haven't gone through them all yet but I'm getting there. I'm simply aware that there are people on this forum who are exceptionally outstanding when typing others. Bottom line, I've studied quite a bit but I still don't have the certainty to completely type myself. So even if no one suggests a definitive type, I can at least use the feedback to further my understanding.


Geez there are no outstanding people that can type besides one's self, any perceived "outstanding people" are just those who are good at forcing the person in question to believe what ever thing they proclaim, whilst getting the crowd bias on their side. Without introspection you have nothing, you might as well be asking what stereotype you may have. I'm calm reasonable and intuitive, with that vibe it would make sense to type me as some kind of NF.


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## Avian (Aug 4, 2012)

Boolean11 said:


> Geez they are no outstanding people that can type besides one else, any perceived "outstanding people" are just those who are good at forcing the person in question to believe what ever thing they proclaim, whilst getting the crowd bias on their side. Without introspection you have nothing, you might as well be asking what stereotype you may have. I'm calm reasonable and intuitive, with that vibe it would make sense to type me as some kind of NF.


As long as I do my own introspection afterwards to see if it aligns then it's not like I'm simply believing what's being claimed. "I'm calm reasona...", yea I understand except that questionnaires and studying of the cognitive functions is better than the tests, I don't see people typing other people off of stereotype based on a personality profile. Answering the questionnaires by itself is a form of introspection.

To be fair, I've seen when a members knowledge does not extend far enough to continue attempting to type the person in question, they will let them know. 

I don't think I'm being forced into believing just about anything, but the fact is which I've mentioned already, I'm not well versed in cognitive functions etc, but just reading this "What's my personality type" sub forum and all the different kinds of responses from different people, I'm at least sure that nobody is being forced to believe that they are a certain type based on any bias like stereotypes.


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## Avian (Aug 4, 2012)

*1. Is there anything that may affect the way you answer the questions? For example, a stressful time, mental illness, medications, special life circumstances? Other useful information includes sex, age, and current state of mind.*

Nothing at all. No medications or special circumstances. I'm male, 19, and in a good state of mind.

*2. Study these two images here and here. Which one do you prefer and why? How would you describe it?*

I prefer this one: http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8287/7704380682_4da6df716d.jpg

The other picture was bland, boring, and predictable. I couldn't extract anything meaningful out of it, this picture I chose is more abstract which is more to my liking. I think of it as abstract because the event taking place doesn't happen all the time, on top of that if I didn't understand what was going on in the picture I could look it up and learn something in the process. To add to that, it's a peaceful and harmonious setting that I strive to keep my inner world like.

*3. Please describe yourself as a person if you were to introduce yourself to someone else like in a cover letter. What kind of person are you and why?*

I'm a very deep thinker who prizes intelligence, honesty, self respect, and has a strong passion for what interests me. I consider myself to be independent in most walks of life, as well as a free thinker. I like to be alone quite a bit, and dwell in a harmonious atmosphere, it's because I'm just not a very interactive person rather I'm minimalistic in the majority of situations. I'm not a big talker except when it's a topic I can relate to, more often then not, something to talk about that I dominate but even if it's not and I decide to open my mouth I'm fairly confident about the validity of what I'm saying. 

I'm not shy, just reserved, and probably not for you. I'm not a narcissistic as far as I can tell, but when I'm right I'm right - this means I like debating with people, sometimes senselessly. I don't have social anxiety, I just don't like what the general population is into. I'm not emotionless, it's just that emotions are ethereal not material, so they all fit in a bottle nicely.

*4. What kind of person would you LIKE to be? Why? What kind of person would you NOT want to be? Why?*

I can't really think of anyone I'd want to be like, except myself because that's infinitely easier. The kind of person I would NOT like to be is somebody who has to be consistently noticed either through being loud vocally or overly self descriptive. A person who can only live by paying attention to the latest trends and worship idols (they even have a show for it), psychologically they're putting attention on TV stars instead of themselves, always adjusting to new instead of what always stays the same inside.

Also I can't stand aggressive attitude like everything potentially offends you, I'm talking about the type of person who might assault you just because of your words, it just comes across as weak and pathetic. I might have been able to formulate my thoughts on this better but I'm just trying to be the opposite of the majority, to not conform to as many social constructs as possible. If I'm going to be myself I can't be like anybody else.

*5. Do you think there are any differences to how you described yourself and how people actually perceive you? How do you think others would describe you? If there are any discrepancies between these two that are you are aware of; do you know why exactly that is?*

Certainly but only people who don't know me very well will perceive me as different from how I described myself, those who are close to me describe me fairly close to who I actually am, with the caveat that no one will probably ever fully understand me. 

The discrepancies between how I describe myself and how I'm perceived are painfully noticeable. Instead of being seen as someone who wants to have deep and meaningful conversations, I'm usually seen as being shy - these kinds of things I have an understanding of and I do know why.

*6. What in life do you find to be of importance? Why? If you are unsure you can always take the Value Test and post the results here. Do note that it helps if you narrow it down to 20 or ideally 10 values as suggested at stage 2.*

Copy and pasted from question 2 on the first questionnaire I did (question is the same).

_The main thing I live for is information, without something intellectual occupying my mind at all times I might not know what to do with myself. A big part of all the knowledge is just for personal reasons, but a small part of me wants to be able to help others when they need advice or guidance in trying to solve their problems. 

I yearn for absolute freedom of my mind, to be the essence of an individual. Why? I don't really know, it's just always been important to me to be as unique as possible. Other than that I can say I don't yearn about the usual things people want in life, solitude is mostly what I'm going for._

*7. How do you react to new situations in your life? Can you describe an event in your life where you were in an unknown situation? How did you deal with it?*

I react according to how this new situation will play out in the future, I envision multiple scenarios of what's going to happen then go forward if it's acceptable to me. The first time I was in an unknown situation was when a friend dragged me to a small basement party, it was extremely uncomfortable because I didn't know anyone there and looking back on it I'm even more of an introvert in situations like that. I'd say I don't deal with it very well, considering that the example I used was new I didn't have any desire to participate in the party - it wasn't planned or spoken of to me so my energy died down quickly. It's mostly times like that which have a negative response from me, when it's something new that fits in with something I already know or can relate to, then it can be energizing.

*8. Please describe yourself when you are in a stressful situation. How do you act and why? Real life experiences are welcome.*

Copy and pasted from similar question (updated a bit):

_When I'm stressed out I get very frustrated by things easily, I rarely act out physically so I'm not the type of person to break things, but on occasion I do. I also get very disoriented in my thoughts, and until I get those realigned I'll continue to be stressed. Migraines and headaches come from my stress, probably because im overthinking whatever it is thats stressing me. Personally with others I get very impatient, and you better not ask me to repeat something or I might steal your brain!

When I'm IN a stressful situation I act out by announcing my immense disinterest with everything around me, when another person can't tell that I'm stressed I just try to find quick ways of letting them know without being rude (guess how often that actually happens?). I don't think a description of an experience is necessary, it's always the same when it comes to stress- extremely reserved, non responsive, overall comatose. _

*9. Please describe yourself when you are in an enjoyable situation. How do you act and why? Real life experiences are welcome.*

When I'm in an enjoyable situation I'm a bit more talkative plus I laugh more, still laid back and enjoying myself. That's really all I can say about that since I'm fairly balanced most of the time. An enjoyable situation to me is one that I'm accustomed to so I guess it's difficult to analyze myself like that since I'm never really in an unknowable situation.

*10. Describe your relationship to socialization. How do you perceive one-on-one interaction? How do you perceive group interaction?*

In my relationship according to socialization, I've divorced socialization for the most part but unfortunately she owns the movie theatres and stuff. I see one on one interaction as the most beneficial for me because the intellectual or personal relationship seems to develop much more easily in that setting, at least it's very close to my introverted environment which is probably a prime reason I like it more. Group interaction is not for me, only for a limited time I can handle it, I tend to notice when people are acting differently because their friends are around. There's a lot of psychology behind group behaviour and the most prominent behaviour I notice is loss of self-integrity, they often become entirely different people.

*11. Describe your relationship to society. What are the elements of it you hold important or unimportant (e.g. social norms, values, customs, traditions)? How do you see people as a whole?*

The elements of society that I hold important are; a) male/female relationships (though not in a religious sense) b) Friendship c) Intelligence. I do not value social norms and I especially do not value traditionalism - throw in conventionalism as well. Elements I find unimportant are; a) Idol Worship (someone is always quick to tell me about the latest radio song, that I should listen to it because the artist sold millions - I don't care) b) Money (please don't ask me to explain it) c) Trends and Fashion d) Most and soon to be, all of television. There's much more, but I didn't come to expose myself as a nihilist or misanthropist but now I'm about to...

I see people as a whole, in a hole with little hope of climbing out of there. The reason being is that I don't think they know themselves, so they desperately try to extract meaning from the external world through senseless materialism, not only has it harmed the earth but also damaged us as a species, I believe. Mostly I see people as misguided and being preyed on by those who are far more intelligent than they are, so while I'm largely hopeless for humanity in general there's always the chance that we will all actually work together one day to get out of that hole while leaving no one behind. 

*12. Describe your relationship to authority. How do you perceive authority? What does it mean to you, and how do you deal with it?*

As far as I'm concerned authority means next to nothing for me, we live in an age of entitlement where having a label to boost your ego is necessary. Does it matter that the cop is wearing a badge? Hardly, my taxes put the police in the streets in the first place, technically in that situation I AM the authority. I could care less about your PHD or whatever piece of paper that states you know things, that to me is not intelligence. I could go on and on, but I can't think of any real uses for these authority figures like police, teachers, music stars, actors and actresses etc. My relationship to authority is not a good one, but I know when to abide by draconian laws or else I might go to jail and there's nothing rational about that. Authority to me is just somebody else trying to control different aspects of your reality.

*13. Describe your relationship to order and chaos. What do order and chaos mean to you? How do they manifest in your daily life?*

Copy and paste from similar principle of the question:

_Fairly organized but to others it isn't really noticeable. I'll keep my room looking like a disaster until I think it's time to properly clean it, when I do clean it everything gets put away in some kind of chronological order. My living space is usually organized, but it's also usually disorganized. I guess I just have a fetish for wrecking order then putting it back to how it was supposed to be. When it comes to clothes I generally don't look like an organized person, I wear simple stuff but every once in a while I will kind of try to put some more thought in my appearance (not that I care much at all to begin with) but I'm often given the same line..."uhh that doesn't exactly match". 

All in all - fairly organized. I keep certain things that I want to organize, organized, all the time. Other times it goes through a cycle of organized - disorganized. It's a bit odd when I really think about it, I have my playlists on my iPod chronologically ordered but the books on my bookshelf are not. Things like that._

*14. What is it that you fear in life? Why? How does this fear manifest to you both in how you think and how you act?*

To be honest, I cannot actually think of something that I fear in life, even death. When I was younger I had small fears about different things but thanks to a slightly amnesiac salvia divinorum experience, I was shown that fear is a projection of the ego and is ultimately useless, it will only manifest as hate or external control.

*15. What is it that you desire in life? What do you strive to achieve? Why? Where do you think these drives and desires stem from or are inspired by?*

I just want a few close friends, a strong relationship with a woman (maybe have kids), and be able to financially support it all. I guess that's the social aspect, on an intellectual platform I would just like to formulate something amazing and unheard of yet. I have the specifics in mind and it's very radical, a unified theory of sorts - it's actually the only plan in the future that I really see manifesting, I started working on it about three and a half years ago. 

I think the drive that inspires me to complete it is every great intellectual in history, the thought that maybe in 3000 years some archaeologist will stumble upon my writings and historians will argue over which textual translation is the best. Knowing that I can essentially become infinite in the material world through my writings alone. 

*16. a) What activities energize you most? b) What activities drain you most? Why?*

a) Reading either online or a book (allows me to get immersed in my inner world), listening to music (I have an affinity for the sound of violins, also listening to music that suits my mood is energizing), putting things in order (finally seeing something arranged instead of scattered about), intellectual arguments or debates (sometimes I won't be as involved, but listening to another persons views can be energizing), ideas clicking together in my head (gives me a sense of accomplishment).

b) Loud situations, or any scenario where my senses are being bombarded (I don't know why), day long family get togethers (I despise small talk but with my family it's not much of a problem up until a certain point), having nothing planned (I always end up getting my energy drained by little nuances and set backs when I haven't properly mapped everything out), Extreme hot or cold (kind of weird, but it's the reason that I try not to do landscaping in the summer and winter seasons), listening to someone ramble on aimlessly (get to the point or I'll just retreat to my cave).

*17. Why do you want to know your type? What type do you think you are? Why this/these type(s)? Is there a type that appeals to you, to your self-perception, that you would like to be? Why? If you know your enneagram, please post this here. If you have done any online function tests such as the Keys2Cognition, it helps if you post these results here as well.*

Well, I know who I am regardless and cognitive functions etc are supposed to be psychological - how the psyche (mind) works, which I think could be useful for me. Knowing how I conceptualize things, how I perceive the world etc is important, once you have that knowledge you can get to some of the root issues of yourself and change them. You could do that regardless, but I like how all of this is systematic - indeed a brain works like a computer.

I'm quite firm on being an INTJ after getting to know the cognitive functions better I think each function of the INTJ suits me for the most part but like I've said, there's a few doubts and from my point of view plus personal studying, I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if it's accurate. 

There isn't really anything about any type that I want to be, just what's closest to who I've always been.

Here's the results from Keys2Cognition test, which I just took again (I've tested on that site a few times):

Cognitive Process	Level of Development (Preference, Skill and Frequency of Use)
extraverted Sensing (Se) ************* (13)
unused
introverted Sensing (Si) ********************* (21)
limited use
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) *************************************** (39.4)
excellent use
introverted Intuiting (Ni) ***************************************** (41.2)
excellent use
extraverted Thinking (Te) ***************************************** (41.4)
excellent use
introverted Thinking (Ti) ************************************* (37.3)
excellent use
extraverted Feeling (Fe) ***** (5.8)
unused
introverted Feeling (Fi) ***************************************** (41.1)
excellent use

Summary Analysis of Profile
By focusing on the strongest configuration of cognitive processes, your pattern of responses most closely matches individuals of this type: INTJ

Lead (Dominant) Process
Introverted Intuiting (Ni): Transforming with a meta-perspective. Withdrawing from the world and focusing your mind to receive an insight or realization. Checking if synergy results. Trying out a realization to transform things.

Support (Auxilliary) Process
Extraverted Thinking (Te): Measuring and constructing for progress. Making decisions objectively based on evidence and measures. Checking if things function properly. Applying a procedure to control events and complete goals.

If these cognitive processes don't fit well then consider these types: ENTJ, or INFP

*18. Finally, is there something else you find to be of importance you want to add about yourself you think might be of relevance when helping to type you?*

I don't think so.

@LeaT


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

Avian said:


> As long as I do my own introspection afterwards to see if it aligns then it's not like I'm simply believing what's being claimed. "I'm calm reasona...", yea I understand except that questionnaires and studying of the cognitive functions is better than the tests, I don't see people typing other people off of stereotype based on a personality profile. Answering the questionnaires by itself is a form of introspection.
> 
> To be fair, I've seen when a members knowledge does not extend far enough to continue attempting to type the person in question, they will let them know.
> 
> I don't think I'm being forced into believing just about anything, but the fact is which I've mentioned already, I'm not well versed in cognitive functions etc, but just reading this "What's my personality type" sub forum and all the different kinds of responses from different people, I'm at least sure that nobody is being forced to believe that they are a certain type based on any bias like stereotypes.


confirmation bias is not a joke anyone can be a victim of it: the point succinctly put.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

@_Avian_ Try this: Intuitive Logical Introtim - Wikisocion

Workout where you fall under these dichotomies (for example whether you are "rational" or "irrational" in Jungian terms):
http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Information_elements

and these functions descriptions:
http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Extraverted_Logicverted logic - Wikisocion
Extroverted intuition - Wikisocion
Introverted intuition - Wikisocion
Extroverted sensing - Wikisocion
Introverted sensing - Wikisocion
Extroverted ethics - Wikisocion
Introverted ethics - Wikisocion


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

@_Avian_ Giving this a whirl before I need to go.



> *2. Study these two images here and here. Which one do you prefer and why? How would you describe it?*
> 
> I prefer this one: http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8287/7704380682_4da6df716d.jpg
> 
> The other picture was bland, boring, and predictable. I couldn't extract anything meaningful out of it, this picture I chose is more abstract which is more to my liking. I think of it as abstract because the event taking place doesn't happen all the time, on top of that if I didn't understand what was going on in the picture I could look it up and learn something in the process. To add to that, it's a peaceful and harmonious setting that I strive to keep my inner world like.


Get a fairly strong TeFi vibe here. I think the fact you classify the pictures into categories such as what's meaningful or not would point a little more towards being a thinker than a feeler. Thinkers tend to think of things if it's meaningful, useful, purposeful and so on.


In retrospect, going back to this answer, I actually think what I thought was Fi could actually be Si with Fe. There's also quite a logical Ne jump here from describing the picture to end up describing your inner world. How do they relate more than in your mind? That doesn't seem very Ni. 


> *3. Please describe yourself as a person if you were to introduce yourself to someone else like in a cover letter. What kind of person are you and why?*
> 
> I'm a very deep thinker who prizes intelligence, honesty, self respect, and has a strong passion for what interests me. I consider myself to be independent in most walks of life, as well as a free thinker. I like to be alone quite a bit, and dwell in a harmonious atmosphere, it's because I'm just not a very interactive person rather I'm minimalistic in the majority of situations. I'm not a big talker except when it's a topic I can relate to, more often then not, something to talk about that I dominate but even if it's not and I decide to open my mouth I'm fairly confident about the validity of what I'm saying.
> 
> I'm not shy, just reserved, and probably not for you. I'm not a narcissistic as far as I can tell, but when I'm right I'm right - this means I like debating with people, sometimes senselessly. I don't have social anxiety, I just don't like what the general population is into. I'm not emotionless, it's just that emotions are ethereal not material, so they all fit in a bottle nicely.


I get Ni here, especially towards the end. Emotions are ethereal, huh? Some things in this answer seems to point strongly towards enneagram 5 such as claiming that when you're right you're right (seems to point towards integration towards enneagram 8, I know the feels  ).


Same here. Going back to reread what you wrote, you actually seem to do a bit of an Ne jump between the two paragraphs, first describing how you are but then you end up describing how you are not, even though the question did in fact not ask such a thing. It seems very focused and on topic and it is and maybe more focused than what's common for most Ne users, your Ne seems very restrained, but let's look at this answer more closely. How do you end up talking about how you see and define emotions from a question that asks you what you are like? Sure, there's a red thread here as you clearly state "I'm not emotionless", tying that to your original point of who you are, but what I see is you coming full circle with an Ne idea rather than extrapolating from one single point. Am I understanding you right here?


> *4. What kind of person would you LIKE to be? Why? What kind of person would you NOT want to be? Why?*
> 
> I can't really think of anyone I'd want to be like, except myself because that's infinitely easier. The kind of person I would NOT like to be is somebody who has to be consistently noticed either through being loud vocally or overly self descriptive. A person who can only live by paying attention to the latest trends and worship idols (they even have a show for it), psychologically they're putting attention on TV stars instead of themselves, always adjusting to new instead of what always stays the same inside.
> 
> Also I can't stand aggressive attitude like everything potentially offends you, I'm talking about the type of person who might assault you just because of your words, it just comes across as weak and pathetic. I might have been able to formulate my thoughts on this better but I'm just trying to be the opposite of the majority, to not conform to as many social constructs as possible. If I'm going to be myself I can't be like anybody else.



Hah, I get Te from the first paragraph here. Seems like you seem to hate on feeling sensors  Hm, maybe you got a 4 wing to your 5. The response in the second paragraph would point more towards that.


Yup, again here. What I thought was Te could in fact potentially be Fe. Actually, I think this is more likely Fe than Te in retrospect. You're definitely talking about people from a value perspective. It's quite a bit of Fe hate here you've got going on, favor for Fi. I think that's why I assumed it was Te too since Te tends to hate on Fe for similar reasons. 



> *5. Do you think there are any differences to how you described yourself and how people actually perceive you? How do you think others would describe you? If there are any discrepancies between these two that are you are aware of; do you know why exactly that is?*
> 
> Certainly but only people who don't know me very well will perceive me as different from how I described myself, those who are close to me describe me fairly close to who I actually am, with the caveat that no one will probably ever fully understand me.
> 
> The discrepancies between how I describe myself and how I'm perceived are painfully noticeable. Instead of being seen as someone who wants to have deep and meaningful conversations, I'm usually seen as being shy - these kinds of things I have an understanding of and I do know why.


Having an understanding - how? This would also point towards Fi I think. Fi users tend to be more likely to try to be true to themselves at all times, so the image they want to portray is usually who they actually are.

To extrapolate on the last statement you wrote about coming off as shy to others, does this bother you? If so, why?


> *6. What in life do you find to be of importance? Why? If you are unsure you can always take the Value Test and post the results here. Do note that it helps if you narrow it down to 20 or ideally 10 values as suggested at stage 2.*
> 
> Copy and pasted from question 2 on the first questionnaire I did (question is the same).
> 
> ...


Yeah, this really seems to point towards avarice of enneagram 5 which is information hoarding. And a strong desire to analyze constantly is also a trait of enneagram 5. The second paragraph could indicate quite a strong 4 wing. I kind of know what you mean with freedom of the mind. Not just free from thinking in certain manners or patterns in general, but also freedom of the ego (soul), as I think NTs tend to usually identify their ego with their mind. 

Again, I want to add in retrospect here that you seem to make a weird Ne jump from going to writing about information to solitude. Are these values or simply things you yearn for? 



> *7. How do you react to new situations in your life? Can you describe an event in your life where you were in an unknown situation? How did you deal with it?*
> 
> I react according to how this new situation will play out in the future, I envision multiple scenarios of what's going to happen then go forward if it's acceptable to me. The first time I was in an unknown situation was when a friend dragged me to a small basement party, it was extremely uncomfortable because I didn't know anyone there and looking back on it I'm even more of an introvert in situations like that. I'd say I don't deal with it very well, considering that the example I used was new I didn't have any desire to participate in the party - it wasn't planned or spoken of to me so my energy died down quickly. It's mostly times like that which have a negative response from me, when it's something new that fits in with something I already know or can relate to, then it can be energizing.


Would you say freedom of choice matters here, as in, if you'd be asked in advance to go would've played a large role in whether you'd say yes or no? This again seems to kind of point towards enneagram 5. I know what you mean also by planning things in advance. I don't like to do things I am not ready for that they will occur. I need to think and consider whether I have time to do these things first. If you just drop it on my head, chances are I will just say no because I don't feel I can devote myself that easily without planning ahead first and see how it fits my schedule.


> *8. Please describe yourself when you are in a stressful situation. How do you act and why? Real life experiences are welcome.*
> 
> Copy and pasted from similar question (updated a bit):
> 
> ...


 Yeah, one thing I notice about N doms is that they tend to focus on physical displeasure and pain when in their inferior S grip, as they focus more on bodily sensations than what's normal and this alone causes pain from stress.

lol le sigh. Again, I need to revise this. This seems to be more of an Si answer actually. At first I thought it was Ni and Se, but I am not as sure now. You focus so much on the experience itself, how it makes you feel. Seems to more Si and Fe. I am not sure where to place the comment about brain stealing. I could see that align both with Ni and Ne humor. The little interjected sentence in brackets could point more towards Ne though.


> *9. Please describe yourself when you are in an enjoyable situation. How do you act and why? Real life experiences are welcome.*
> 
> When I'm in an enjoyable situation I'm a bit more talkative plus I laugh more, still laid back and enjoying myself. That's really all I can say about that since I'm fairly balanced most of the time. An enjoyable situation to me is one that I'm accustomed to so I guess it's difficult to analyze myself like that since I'm never really in an unknowable situation.


How willing are you to try something new? Does this also include planning ahead, doing research etc.?


> *10. Describe your relationship to socialization. How do you perceive one-on-one interaction? How do you perceive group interaction?*
> 
> In my relationship according to socialization, I've divorced socialization for the most part but unfortunately she owns the movie theatres and stuff. I see one on one interaction as the most beneficial for me because the intellectual or personal relationship seems to develop much more easily in that setting, at least it's very close to my introverted environment which is probably a prime reason I like it more. Group interaction is not for me, only for a limited time I can handle it, I tend to notice when people are acting differently because their friends are around. There's a lot of psychology behind group behaviour and the most prominent behaviour I notice is loss of self-integrity, they often become entirely different people.


 Hm, I get Fi here.

Still Fi in here, but I need to revise this one too. I was thinking that what you'd be describing here could potentially be your relationship to your inferior shadow, your anima specifically. Why call Ms. Socialization a female for one? Could you expand a bit more what you think about this question and why you answered the way you did?


> *11. Describe your relationship to society. What are the elements of it you hold important or unimportant (e.g. social norms, values, customs, traditions)? How do you see people as a whole?*
> 
> The elements of society that I hold important are; a) male/female relationships (though not in a religious sense) b) Friendship c) Intelligence. I do not value social norms and I especially do not value traditionalism - throw in conventionalism as well. Elements I find unimportant are; a) Idol Worship (someone is always quick to tell me about the latest radio song, that I should listen to it because the artist sold millions - I don't care) b) Money (please don't ask me to explain it) c) Trends and Fashion d) Most and soon to be, all of television. There's much more, but I didn't come to expose myself as a nihilist or misanthropist but now I'm about to...
> 
> I see people as a whole, in a hole with little hope of climbing out of there. The reason being is that I don't think they know themselves, so they desperately try to extract meaning from the external world through senseless materialism, not only has it harmed the earth but also damaged us as a species, I believe. Mostly I see people as misguided and being preyed on by those who are far more intelligent than they are, so while I'm largely hopeless for humanity in general there's always the chance that we will all actually work together one day to get out of that hole while leaving no one behind.


I see a little what could be Ne towards the end in the first paragraph. You made quite the jump from describing what you dislike about society to suddenly say that disliking certain aspects actually makes you a misanthropist and nihilist. The way you describe Idol Worship TM seems to strike me as so Ni. Usually, at least in anthropology, we refer to this as fetishism. A specific commodity is fetishized. 

Hm, do I sense Se hate in the second paragraph? I think I do. I think the keyword here is "extraverted world". I am fairly certain you are so/sx now. You write like so/sx people tend to do; dramatical and grandiose. I wonder if you also got enneagram 8 in your tritype. I notice the intensity from 8 coming from your writing too. There's an undercurrent of 8 anger. 

Addendum: could you expand in relation to the question prior too, what you were thinking when you wrote this response? This could also point towards Fe here, when I think about it. The answer seems to be framed in more of an Fe-framework than Te. 


> *12. Describe your relationship to authority. How do you perceive authority? What does it mean to you, and how do you deal with it?*
> 
> As far as I'm concerned authority means next to nothing for me, we live in an age of entitlement where having a label to boost your ego is necessary. Does it matter that the cop is wearing a badge? Hardly, my taxes put the police in the streets in the first place, technically in that situation I AM the authority. I could care less about your PHD or whatever piece of paper that states you know things, that to me is not intelligence. I could go on and on, but I can't think of any real uses for these authority figures like police, teachers, music stars, actors and actresses etc. My relationship to authority is not a good one, but I know when to abide by draconian laws or else I might go to jail and there's nothing rational about that. Authority to me is just somebody else trying to control different aspects of your reality.


Heh, such a Te response. Hm, or maybe more Fe actually?  If anything, it seems to indicate Te hate, now when I think of it. Regardless, you're such an so/sx. How often do you see people use words such as "draconian"? XD See how well this quote describes you:

_"soc/sx: The word "fantastical" comes to mind. Lots of virtuosity and trills, and often removed from the real world. One is whirled away by the dazzling fairies of their colorful imagination. Can be too rich in imagery for their own good. Sustained dramatic power due to their knowledge of interpersonal dynamics."_


> *13. Describe your relationship to order and chaos. What do order and chaos mean to you? How do they manifest in your daily life?*
> 
> Copy and paste from similar principle of the question:
> 
> ...


I think the keyword in this answer is the focus on the word principle. Why principle? 

Yeah, and I think the reason why this is, is because you're just an obvious Ni dom with a slight preference towards Te, but you seem to sometimes as easily stray towards the Ti side of life. It was a little less apparent in this post and the Te stood out more to me, but there were quite a few questions where it was very hard to tell if you preferred Te or Ti more. This could just be because your T might not be particularly differentiated which could be because of your age. You're still possibly developing it. It could also be that you're one of those people who will not develop a very strong preference for neither introversion or extraversion. Jung in fact claimed that most people actually fall on the cognitive ambiverted spectrum as that is the most healthy kind, as too much introversion and extraversion will lead to a dystonic ego. While you may prefer Ni as your dominant function and there was little obvious Ne I could spot in your post, I think Ne might be something you can probably switch to at times although maybe not as easily as to Ti. You definitely seem to prefer Fi over Fe as your feeling function though. Even if you don't, you have a strong enneagram 4 wing to your 5. So far, if I were to type you, I would say INTP (disregard the stuff written prior, heh), 5w4 so/sx.


> *14. What is it that you fear in life? Why? How does this fear manifest to you both in how you think and how you act?*
> 
> To be honest, I cannot actually think of something that I fear in life, even death. When I was younger I had small fears about different things but thanks to a slightly amnesiac salvia divinorum experience, I was shown that fear is a projection of the ego and is ultimately useless, it will only manifest as hate or external control.


This for example doesn't necessarily strike as more obvious NiTe but actually sounds a little like SiNeTi. The reason why I say Si here as the starting point seems to be that you are recalling what the experience meant to you. Keyword here is on experience. It's not particularly strong towards Se details, but seems to be more on the internal experience itself than sensory details. And the way you describe fear as ultimately useless seems to be typical Ti deconstruction. The reasoning is definitely subjective. It's logical but it's easier to say that it's simply your subjective interpretation of it, being based on your own personal experiences. What's seems to be important though is that the experience eventually coalesced into an Ni revelation. Hard to say if Ni or Ti is leading here. 

With that said, I would like to see how you relate to this:

_Holy Omniscience: The direct knowing of Essence. The Universe knows Itself through us. When abiding in our true nature our minds are clear and we know the Intelligence behind our limited ego minds. We see both the endlessly transforming manifestation of Reality as well as its underlying depths. We feel transparent. Nothing is “stuck” in our consciousness. We practice non-attachment. Reality is perceived with a penetrating clarity that does not require the exertions of the ego mind to understand. We know._

_Holy Omniscience implies that we already know everything that we need to know, and that we will know what we need to know when we need to know it. In a constricted state we believe that we have to withhold and guard ourselves because there is not enough of ourselves, energy, resources and experiences. When we practice non-attachment and are fully in the moment there is access to all that is and we have everything that we need. The more we give away, the more we are enriched.
_
_*Basic Fear:* Being useless, helpless, or incapable

__*Social: Totems*
_
_We all need to belong. As an Observer with avarice for knowledge, time and energy, this is no easy matter. Your avarice manifests through cleaving to totems, the representation of things that a group shares, but is one step removed from ordinary involvement. Needing a knowledge-based role that buffers you from direct access, you are attracted to groups that share special knowledge, such as a field of study or systems, or a shared intellectual pursuit. You have avarice for and affiliate with people or groups who influence culture, events and seek greater knowledge through the power of the mind. You align in the mental domain with leaders, movements and systems where knowledge is valued and shared, such as history and philosophy groups, scientific and technical endeavors, sports expertise, and literary or art interests. Here you feel needed, comfortable and a part of things. You attempt to obtain sufficiency through knowledge that befits the group. At your worst, you use totems, whatever they might be, as a substitute for heartfelt human contact, paradoxically isolating yourself from others._



> *15. What is it that you desire in life? What do you strive to achieve? Why? Where do you think these drives and desires stem from or are inspired by?*
> 
> I just want a few close friends, a strong relationship with a woman (maybe have kids), and be able to financially support it all. I guess that's the social aspect, on an intellectual platform I would just like to formulate something amazing and unheard of yet. I have the specifics in mind and it's very radical, a unified theory of sorts - it's actually the only plan in the future that I really see manifesting, I started working on it about three and a half years ago.
> 
> I think the drive that inspires me to complete it is every great intellectual in history, the thought that maybe in 3000 years some archaeologist will stumble upon my writings and historians will argue over which textual translation is the best. Knowing that I can essentially become infinite in the material world through my writings alone.


LOL! Actually, the first paragraph doesn't sound so very INTJ-ish to me at first glance. It sounds more Pe-esque, drifting through life, see what ends up in your lap and take it if it looks nice. Maybe, just maybe, you're one of those weird INTPs who just has a strong Ni? Who knows. You do seem to swing either way at times. Or you're just that INTJ with a strong Ti. 

The second paragraph is lol-worthy, because that's exactly how I see myself in the future too XD Information is everything, right? So awfully enneagram 5 of you. I think most enneagram 5 cores secretely dream that their information hoarding will at some point in time be found _useful_ to someone else, especially en masse.



> *16. a) What activities energize you most? b) What activities drain you most? Why?*
> 
> a) Reading either online or a book (allows me to get immersed in my inner world), listening to music (I have an affinity for the sound of violins, also listening to music that suits my mood is energizing), putting things in order (finally seeing something arranged instead of scattered about), intellectual arguments or debates (sometimes I won't be as involved, but listening to another persons views can be energizing), ideas clicking together in my head (gives me a sense of accomplishment).
> 
> b) Loud situations, or any scenario where my senses are being bombarded (I don't know why), day long family get togethers (I despise small talk but with my family it's not much of a problem up until a certain point), having nothing planned (I always end up getting my energy drained by little nuances and set backs when I haven't properly mapped everything out), Extreme hot or cold (kind of weird, but it's the reason that I try not to do landscaping in the summer and winter seasons), listening to someone ramble on aimlessly (get to the point or I'll just retreat to my cave).


Oh, you listen to music according to your mood? What happens if you listen to music that doesn't fit your mood? That could be a strong indicator towards SiFe. Not because I say other types don't necessarily listen to music according to their mood, but I find that being sensitive to this could possibly be traced to Si and how you _experience_ the music. 

What does it mean when your senses are being bombarded? Do you mean it in a literary sense? And can you elaborate what you mean with extreme hot and cold temperatures and how it affects your mood and energy reserves? That seems to point more towards Si than Se when digging a little deeper into that. The follow in particular seems to indicate this with more focus on the experience than sensory details. 

LOL! Yeah, enneagram 5s are all cavemen. We like information but only if there's a point to it.


> *17. Why do you want to know your type? What type do you think you are? Why this/these type(s)? Is there a type that appeals to you, to your self-perception, that you would like to be? Why? If you know your enneagram, please post this here. If you have done any online function tests such as the Keys2Cognition, it helps if you post these results here as well.*
> 
> Well, I know who I am regardless and cognitive functions etc are supposed to be psychological - how the psyche (mind) works, which I think could be useful for me. Knowing how I conceptualize things, how I perceive the world etc is important, once you have that knowledge you can get to some of the root issues of yourself and change them. You could do that regardless, but I like how all of this is systematic - indeed a brain works like a computer.
> 
> ...


... Yeah, you start out this answer with a very Ni answer, but then you strangely end up with something that sounds more Ti. The Key2Cog test is quite funny, because it could point towards INFP, INTP and INTJ. I am not sure why it suggests ENTJ with your Fi being that high, since for ENTJs Fi is the inferior so it would normally be quite underdeveloped at your age. 

It's hard to say if you got inferior Fe or inferior Se from this. Both functions seem to be quite hated on. I think you're one of those enneagram 458 people too, with 5 in the lead, so 548 so/sx. Honestly, I can't really say if I think you got inferior Se or inferior Fe or something else entirely. At some point you seem to be quite strong on INTJ, but then you end up writing something that seems to swing quite strongly towards INTP. 

The only thing I've got left is to essentially give you a link to the inferior functions and how they operate but I'm quite sure you've already been through that.

Reading through this questionnaire from a new light, I actually see more align towards INTP than INTJ. You write very focused and to the point, not necessarily what we typically think of Ne-esque, but when I look closer at your writing, I see more Si, Ne and Ti than Ni, Te and Fi. 

Anyway, I would appreciate if you'd respond to my in-depth questions and see what we get from that, as they will help me to identify what your potential inferior is.


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## Avian (Aug 4, 2012)

LeaT said:


> @_Avian_ Giving this a whirl before I need to go.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you could rephrase the question that would be great, I'm just drawing a blank as to what specifically is being asked.



> I get Ni here, especially towards the end. Emotions are ethereal, huh? Some things in this answer seems to point strongly towards enneagram 5 such as claiming that when you're right you're right (seems to point towards integration towards enneagram 8, I know the feels  ).
> 
> 
> Same here. Going back to reread what you wrote, you actually seem to do a bit of an Ne jump between the two paragraphs, first describing how you are but then you end up describing how you are not, even though the question did in fact not ask such a thing. It seems very focused and on topic and it is and maybe more focused than what's common for most Ne users, your Ne seems very restrained, but let's look at this answer more closely. How do you end up talking about how you see and define emotions from a question that asks you what you are like? Sure, there's a red thread here as you clearly state "I'm not emotionless", tying that to your original point of who you are, but what I see is you coming full circle with an Ne idea rather than extrapolating from one single point. Am I understanding you right here?


I was thinking when I mentioned certain things I'm NOT, that I would add the reason and a bit of the perspective from other people since misconception is a bit of a pet peeve. Other than that, I think you're understanding me correctly.



> Hah, I get Te from the first paragraph here. Seems like you seem to hate on feeling sensors  Hm, maybe you got a 4 wing to your 5. The response in the second paragraph would point more towards that.
> 
> Yup, again here. What I thought was Te could in fact potentially be Fe. Actually, I think this is more likely Fe than Te in retrospect. You're definitely talking about people from a value perspective. It's quite a bit of Fe hate here you've got going on, favor for Fi. I think that's why I assumed it was Te too since Te tends to hate on Fe for similar reasons.


Yea I just don't like the five senses in general lol. Mix in the irrational baggage that emotions usually offer and then you have a recipe for disaster.



> Having an understanding - how? This would also point towards Fi I think. Fi users tend to be more likely to try to be true to themselves at all times, so the image they want to portray is usually who they actually are.


Well I used to be extremely oblivious to other people's perception of myself. Then it evolved into trying to see it from their point of view (kind of had to meditate to achieve this), I would see if they were projecting their ego (many times that is the case) or just have limited experiences with me, thus their being prejudice.



> To extrapolate on the last statement you wrote about coming off as shy to others, does this bother you? If so, why?


No it doesn't bother me personally, it just sucks when it happens because then it means I would have to waste energy explaining to them why their preconceived notion is incorrect. So while I don't want to portray shyness because that's not really who I am, there's just that external aspect of me that tends to give off the opposite impression of what's internal. At the same time, I have more of a careless attitude towards how I come across to people, usually people I don't know. 



> Yeah, this really seems to point towards avarice of enneagram 5 which is information hoarding. And a strong desire to analyze constantly is also a trait of enneagram 5. The second paragraph could indicate quite a strong 4 wing. I kind of know what you mean with freedom of the mind. Not just free from thinking in certain manners or patterns in general, but also freedom of the ego (soul), as I think NTs tend to usually identify their ego with their mind.
> 
> Again, I want to add in retrospect here that you seem to make a weird Ne jump from going to writing about information to solitude. Are these values or simply things you yearn for?


Yea I'm definitely an information hoarder, and to occupy my mind I need to be constantly analyzing things. Agree with the second part of the first paragraph.

Values or things I yearn for? Can it be both? I'm just thinking that they go hand in hand with values slightly above yearning for things in life. We have our morals, ethics, and values which tend to shape the things we want in life.



> Would you say freedom of choice matters here, as in, if you'd be asked in advance to go would've played a large role in whether you'd say yes or no? This again seems to kind of point towards enneagram 5. I know what you mean also by planning things in advance. I don't like to do things I am not ready for that they will occur. I need to think and consider whether I have time to do these things first. If you just drop it on my head, chances are I will just say no because I don't feel I can devote myself that easily without planning ahead first and see how it fits my schedule.


Freedom of choice is the perfect way to put it. Ever since I was three years old it's been that way, I was taken to a specialist and they made clear to my mom that it has to seem like I'm the one making the choice instead of saying "ok we're gonna go do this now", in the same examination they extrapolated that I had borderline autism, if that's at all relevant.



> Yeah, one thing I notice about N doms is that they tend to focus on physical displeasure and pain when in their inferior S grip, as they focus more on bodily sensations than what's normal and this alone causes pain from stress.
> 
> lol le sigh. Again, I need to revise this. This seems to be more of an Si answer actually. At first I thought it was Ni and Se, but I am not as sure now. You focus so much on the experience itself, how it makes you feel. Seems to more Si and Fe. I am not sure where to place the comment about brain stealing. I could see that align both with Ni and Ne humor. The little interjected sentence in brackets could point more towards Ne though.





> How willing are you to try something new? Does this also include planning ahead, doing research etc.?


I put full focus and motivation into something new that comes along, the real question is how often do I finish it? If I start something sometimes I just get bored and drop it into my subconscious to perhaps revisit it later. 



> Hm, I get Fi here.
> 
> Still Fi in here, but I need to revise this one too. I was thinking that what you'd be describing here could potentially be your relationship to your inferior shadow, your anima specifically. Why call Ms. Socialization a female for one? Could you expand a bit more what you think about this question and why you answered the way you did?


Why did I call socialization female? LOL I'm not entirely sure, it probably has some esoteric meaning that I need to go over.

The question was fine and I felt it was easier to get my exact thoughts down on cyber paper. I'm not too sure why I answered the way I did, understanding the WHY is usually difficult for me.



> I see a little what could be Ne towards the end in the first paragraph. You made quite the jump from describing what you dislike about society to suddenly say that disliking certain aspects actually makes you a misanthropist and nihilist. The way you describe Idol Worship TM seems to strike me as so Ni. Usually, at least in anthropology, we refer to this as fetishism. A specific commodity is fetishized.
> 
> Hm, do I sense Se hate in the second paragraph? I think I do. I think the keyword here is "extraverted world". I am fairly certain you are so/sx now. You write like so/sx people tend to do; dramatical and grandiose. I wonder if you also got enneagram 8 in your tritype. I notice the intensity from 8 coming from your writing too. There's an undercurrent of 8 anger.
> 
> Addendum: could you expand in relation to the question prior too, what you were thinking when you wrote this response? This could also point towards Fe here, when I think about it. The answer seems to be framed in more of an Fe-framework than Te.


I was thinking about listing all of the things I find important/unimportant in society and then I just decided to kind of make generalizations. That answer would probably have been an essay, especially on the relevancy of traditions. I'll be blunt, I fucking hate traditions! Most people really don't have a clue in the world as to what they're celebrating, especially the Christmas tree - it's completely idiotic. 

When asked how I see people as a whole, I didn't want to answer at first because the big picture in my mind is beyond comprehension with words.



> Heh, such a Te response. Hm, or maybe more Fe actually?  If anything, it seems to indicate Te hate, now when I think of it. Regardless, you're such an so/sx. How often do you see people use words such as "draconian"? XD See how well this quote describes you:
> 
> _"soc/sx: The word "fantastical" comes to mind. Lots of virtuosity and trills, and often removed from the real world. One is whirled away by the dazzling fairies of their colorful imagination. Can be too rich in imagery for their own good. Sustained dramatic power due to their knowledge of interpersonal dynamics."_


I agree with that pretty well.



> I think the keyword in this answer is the focus on the word principle. Why principle?
> 
> Yeah, and I think the reason why this is, is because you're just an obvious Ni dom with a slight preference towards Te, but you seem to sometimes as easily stray towards the Ti side of life. It was a little less apparent in this post and the Te stood out more to me, but there were quite a few questions where it was very hard to tell if you preferred Te or Ti more. This could just be because your T might not be particularly differentiated which could be because of your age. You're still possibly developing it. It could also be that you're one of those people who will not develop a very strong preference for neither introversion or extraversion. Jung in fact claimed that most people actually fall on the cognitive ambiverted spectrum as that is the most healthy kind, as too much introversion and extraversion will lead to a dystonic ego. While you may prefer Ni as your dominant function and there was little obvious Ne I could spot in your post, I think Ne might be something you can probably switch to at times although maybe not as easily as to Ti. You definitely seem to prefer Fi over Fe as your feeling function though. Even if you don't, you have a strong enneagram 4 wing to your 5. So far, if I were to type you, I would say INTP (disregard the stuff written prior, heh), 5w4 so/sx.


I don't see the word principle in my answer lol



> This for example doesn't necessarily strike as more obvious NiTe but actually sounds a little like SiNeTi. The reason why I say Si here as the starting point seems to be that you are recalling what the experience meant to you. Keyword here is on experience. It's not particularly strong towards Se details, but seems to be more on the internal experience itself than sensory details. And the way you describe fear as ultimately useless seems to be typical Ti deconstruction. The reasoning is definitely subjective. It's logical but it's easier to say that it's simply your subjective interpretation of it, being based on your own personal experiences. What's seems to be important though is that the experience eventually coalesced into an Ni revelation. Hard to say if Ni or Ti is leading here.
> 
> With that said, I would like to see how you relate to this:
> 
> ...


The whole thing (in italics) speaks volumes to me, the first paragraph is appealing because of its esoteric and mystical content, I really like that kind of stuff and it just seems to gel with my mind. The second paragraph was great too. The third paragraph is almost as enlightening as the first, I felt that was speaking more directly to me personally, not so much mentally . I really enjoyed that, I was going to comment on pieces of it but I'm just going to analyze it longer.

I'm interested in where that came from. (The holy omniscience)



> LOL! Actually, the first paragraph doesn't sound so very INTJ-ish to me at first glance. It sounds more Pe-esque, drifting through life, see what ends up in your lap and take it if it looks nice. Maybe, just maybe, you're one of those weird INTPs who just has a strong Ni? Who knows. You do seem to swing either way at times. Or you're just that INTJ with a strong Ti.
> 
> The second paragraph is lol-worthy, because that's exactly how I see myself in the future too XD Information is everything, right? So awfully enneagram 5 of you. I think most enneagram 5 cores secretely dream that their information hoarding will at some point in time be found _useful_ to someone else, especially en masse.


"See what ends up in your lap.." Yea sometimes it's like that, I'm more on the "go with the flow" side, but obviously there's things that I need to be in control of.



> Oh, you listen to music according to your mood? What happens if you listen to music that doesn't fit your mood? That could be a strong indicator towards SiFe. Not because I say other types don't necessarily listen to music according to their mood, but I find that being sensitive to this could possibly be traced to Si and how you _experience_ the music.
> 
> What does it mean when your senses are being bombarded? Do you mean it in a literary sense? And can you elaborate what you mean with extreme hot and cold temperatures and how it affects your mood and energy reserves? That seems to point more towards Si than Se when digging a little deeper into that. The follow in particular seems to indicate this with more focus on the experience than sensory details.
> 
> LOL! Yeah, enneagram 5s are all cavemen. We like information but only if there's a point to it.


Yea I do listen to music according to my mood, if I don't find something that matches my mood I get bored quickly, kind of like its an outlet and the outlet isn't working - so I get bored easily and move onto the next thing to accommodate my mood. My senses being bombarded...I think back to a questionnaire I did a while ago where it was proposing a hypothetical going out to a concert, in a scenario like that the noise of the crowd and the music would just be horrible. I can't eat anything too spicy, sugary, salty etc, it just destroys my palate in the moment. 

The thing about hot and cold temperatures is bizarre to me. My job is landscaping, and in the summer I do part-time because it gets so hot that I can't even think straight, yea that might be normal for a lot of people but I don't have any tolerance for it - it sucks the life out of me. Maybe it's biological, not psychological, or it's a combination.



> ... Yeah, you start out this answer with a very Ni answer, but then you strangely end up with something that sounds more Ti. The Key2Cog test is quite funny, because it could point towards INFP, INTP and INTJ. I am not sure why it suggests ENTJ with your Fi being that high, since for ENTJs Fi is the inferior so it would normally be quite underdeveloped at your age.
> 
> It's hard to say if you got inferior Fe or inferior Se from this. Both functions seem to be quite hated on. I think you're one of those enneagram 458 people too, with 5 in the lead, so 548 so/sx. Honestly, I can't really say if I think you got inferior Se or inferior Fe or something else entirely. At some point you seem to be quite strong on INTJ, but then you end up writing something that seems to swing quite strongly towards INTP.
> 
> ...


I'm glad you noticed the bouncing back between INTJ and INTP tendencies, because I don't think I'm a simple case. Some people are easier to type, and some not so easy. 

Thank you for everything so far in this thread, your certainty on my enneagram is motivation enough to research that field (I've given little to no attention to it until now). 
@LeaT


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Avian said:


> If you could rephrase the question that would be great, I'm just drawing a blank as to what specifically is being asked.


The intents and purposes of that question was to make people compare the pictures in detail so we have more of an analysis of how people think to go off. I notice that a lot of people forget the whole comparison part in the question though.


> I was thinking when I mentioned certain things I'm NOT, that I would add the reason and a bit of the perspective from other people since misconception is a bit of a pet peeve. Other than that, I think you're understanding me correctly.


Yes, the latter portion sounds very Si working with Ji. It's about how you see things or think of things first and foremost.


> Yea I just don't like the five senses in general lol. Mix in the irrational baggage that emotions usually offer and then you have a recipe for disaster.


If you must choose the one you dislike the most, which one would it be?


> Well I used to be extremely oblivious to other people's perception of myself. Then it evolved into trying to see it from their point of view (kind of had to meditate to achieve this), I would see if they were projecting their ego (many times that is the case) or just have limited experiences with me, thus their being prejudice.


Projecting their ego? Care to explain? This honestly sounds a lot like Fe though. I don't think Fi types necessarily pay that much attention to when someone projects their ego onto you, and they would definitely not seek it out as a hobby/interaction-thing to study in other people for most of the part. Fi users tend to prefer to be left to their own devices. They have more of a living-let-live kind of mentality. I completely understand what you mean though - I find studying people and how they project themselves utterly fascinating. That's one of the reasons why I got more into the MBTI and Jungian functions.


> No it doesn't bother me personally, it just sucks when it happens because then it means I would have to waste energy explaining to them why their preconceived notion is incorrect. So while I don't want to portray shyness because that's not really who I am, there's just that external aspect of me that tends to give off the opposite impression of what's internal. At the same time, I have more of a careless attitude towards how I come across to people, usually people I don't know.


LOL, wasting energy. Avarice is such a bitch. I know exactly what you mean though, the feeling of wasting time and energy on people who don't deserve it. It just feels pointless. Bah. The phrasing "preconceived notion is incorrect" is actually one I tend to use quite a bit, heh. I really do think you're just an INTP with a strong Ni. You remind me a lot of @_Brainfreeze_237_. You should contact him. I think you might discover that you got a lot of things in common personality wise.


> Values or things I yearn for? Can it be both? I'm just thinking that they go hand in hand with values slightly above yearning for things in life. We have our morals, ethics, and values which tend to shape the things we want in life.


You're right they don't have to be opposing each other, but the question didn't necessarily ask what we yearn for though.


> Freedom of choice is the perfect way to put it. Ever since I was three years old it's been that way, I was taken to a specialist and they made clear to my mom that it has to seem like I'm the one making the choice instead of saying "ok we're gonna go do this now", in the same examination they extrapolated that I had borderline autism, if that's at all relevant.


Yeah, this is how most INTPs actually think and react to things. We need to feel that we are ones deciding. I hated when my ESTJ stepmother would tell me, "we are going to go this or that" without giving me time to think. I always ended up being stubborn and refusing to go. Eventually she learned and started to give me options: "we are going to do this in X amount of time. Decide until then what you want to do". That works so much better for me. Then it feels like I have a choice. I might still not want to go though. I'm primarily self-preservation instinct first, so I will often not do things if I find that I don't have time to do it. It comes down to planning. Did I plan to do this or that today? Do I have time to do this new thing? If I don't, I will say no. For example, my ENFP friend asked me to come over one day, and I was just standing in the doorway about to leave to do grocery shopping. I eventually turned down the invitiation because I felt like I didn't have enough time to do both. I had planned to do grocery shopping first, so that's what I intended to do. I put myself and my own needs first.


> I put full focus and motivation into something new that comes along, the real question is how often do I finish it? If I start something sometimes I just get bored and drop it into my subconscious to perhaps revisit it later.


You often procrastinate? How do you approach theories or other subjects you find interesting? Do you prefer breadth or depth? Do you prefer the tree or the sea? 
(Yes, there is a point to this question.) Why?


> Why did I call socialization female? LOL I'm not entirely sure, it probably has some esoteric meaning that I need to go over.
> 
> The question was fine and I felt it was easier to get my exact thoughts down on cyber paper. I'm not too sure why I answered the way I did, understanding the WHY is usually difficult for me.


This actually seems to point a little against Ni being your dominant function. Ni people are a bit more aware of this stuff and they have more thought put behind into what they say in a different way than INTPs do.


> I was thinking about listing all of the things I find important/unimportant in society and then I just decided to kind of make generalizations. That answer would probably have been an essay, especially on the relevancy of traditions. I'll be blunt, I fucking hate traditions! Most people really don't have a clue in the world as to what they're celebrating, especially the Christmas tree - it's completely idiotic.


Yeah, Ti lazy cop-out. XD I suppose this partially answers the question I made above - here it seems like you went for the principle or what you think is the general idea. Breadth over depth. I get Ti rage when you mention traidtions to be honest. I am fairly cerain that would you write why traditions are wrong, you'd break it down and end up with something about, it's all meaningless and has no value, right? What's the point of Jesus and celebrating his death when he was just a man stuck on a cross? If anything, it better highlights Roman cruelty at the time and the lack of humanist values undercurring the pre-Christian era.


> When asked how I see people as a whole, I didn't want to answer at first because the big picture in my mind is beyond comprehension with words.


 Yeah, I know what you mean in a way. Although the INTP big picture is very different to the INTJ one. Do you see the big picture as nodes interconnected and the big picture are the relationships between the nodes or is the big picture about the nodes themselves and how this synthethizes into a larger view?



> I don't see the word principle in my answer lol


Not IN your answer, but before 


> The whole thing (in italics) speaks volumes to me, the first paragraph is appealing because of its esoteric and mystical content, I really like that kind of stuff and it just seems to gel with my mind. The second paragraph was great too. The third paragraph is almost as enlightening as the first, I felt that was speaking more directly to me personally, not so much mentally . I really enjoyed that, I was going to comment on pieces of it but I'm just going to analyze it longer.
> 
> I'm interested in where that came from. (The holy omniscience)


Yes, I figured it would. The part about holy omniscience is the holy idea of enneagram 5. It's basically the innermost desire that defines enneagram 5 people. I saw strong indicators in your previous post that you're a 5 core, so I posted this to see how true it would ring for you. I think it hit quite close to home, right? 

The final paragraph I posted was about the enneagram instincts. I already mentioned I think you're dominantly so/sx, so I posted to see how well you thought that'd fit you too. Honestly, I don't think you're an INTJ anymore. The vibe you give me now is actually more INTP fascination when someone gives them information they have never encountered before <.<


> "See what ends up in your lap.." Yea sometimes it's like that, I'm more on the "go with the flow" side, but obviously there's things that I need to be in control of.


Yeah, but that control could as well be attributed to enneagram 8 and that 5s integrate towards 8 too. I know what you mean that you just want to control the outcome of certain things. It would be better if you didn't, but you just have to because you know that otherwise it will all just end up wrong and substandard of what you desire. Also, INTJs are generally speaking not really go-with-the-flow kind of people. They tend to be rather stoic and wanting things their way, otherwise they won't play at all. I think NTPs are more likely to strive for a middle-ground where everyone gets along even if it requires compromise, due to Fe. 



> Yea I do listen to music according to my mood, if I don't find something that matches my mood I get bored quickly, kind of like its an outlet and the outlet isn't working - so I get bored easily and move onto the next thing to accommodate my mood. My senses being bombarded...I think back to a questionnaire I did a while ago where it was proposing a hypothetical going out to a concert, in a scenario like that the noise of the crowd and the music would just be horrible. I can't eat anything too spicy, sugary, salty etc, it just destroys my palate in the moment.


Out of touch? Out of sync? Destroys your palate in the moment? Can't focus on the here and now or what you really want to focus on? Doesn't sound like Se. Sounds more like Si.


> The thing about hot and cold temperatures is bizarre to me. My job is landscaping, and in the summer I do part-time because it gets so hot that I can't even think straight, yea that might be normal for a lot of people but I don't have any tolerance for it - it sucks the life out of me. Maybe it's biological, not psychological, or it's a combination.


Were you ever diagnosed as a hyper-sensitive person? Again, I kind of get Si here though, not Se.


> I'm glad you noticed the bouncing back between INTJ and INTP tendencies, because I don't think I'm a simple case. Some people are easier to type, and some not so easy.
> 
> Thank you for everything so far in this thread, your certainty on my enneagram is motivation enough to research that field (I've given little to no attention to it until now).


 The more I read from you the more certain I become that you're probably an INTP and not an INTJ. I was first going to say that you're an INTJ with strong Ti, but I think you're more likely an INTP with strong Ni. In general though, I don't really see the Ni from you. I would say that the fact you also asked to be retyped would also kind of point towards that you deep down maybe recognized that the INTJ label was not the best fit for you after all. Enneagram 8 has a lot of qualities or tendencies that seem very INTJ or ENTJ-ish, and I can see why you could potentially confuse that. 548 and 584 has a certain level of intensity that most INTPs lack as a quality. It's in general not a very common enneagram tritype. I can see how it's easy to mistake that intensity for Te in particular, because 8 is fairly action-oriented, especially when paired with a sexual instinct. 8s like to see results and engage themselves, and it mellows out the more observant behavior of 5. 

I also want to add that 8 and 3 are two ennegram types quite strongly associated with Te users, so there's also that correlation. I was for example typed as an ISTJ because my desire to dominate and control due to enneagram 5 integration and my strong 8 wing resulted in what one could think of as more stereotypical Te behavior. I can be fairly result-oriented when in that mindset. Coupled with my weaker 3 wing to my 4, I can be very goal-oriented in particular. I'm also highly competitive due to my strong sexual instinct, and it's probably exacerbated because of my enneagram tritype and wings. 

Anyway, just as a double-check, I am going to give you a theoretical task. You're stuck in the woods and you don't know the way where to go, and it's getting dark and you have to find your way home before it's completely dark. What will you do? How will you try to find your way back home?


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

The Maid of the Mist. It's the boat that rides under Niagara Falls.

You're definitely an NT. Intelligence is primary for you, and your deepest aspirations are intellectual. It's really hard to tell. I don't know enough INTPs in real life to really get the essence of the type and recognize it in you or not. But I do sort of get an INTJ vibe, and your sensitivities to sensory assault, and your dislike of the five senses, could possibly be related to inferior Se. I don't see any signs of inferior Fe. All you mentioned in relation to Fe is that you'd like to have a few good friends, a wife, and maybe some kids someday, but you were so nonchalant about it, that alone seems more INTJ than INTP. The INTJs I know have a nonchalance about other people, and appear aloof, or shy, but they're really not, they're just in their own minds. INTPs, I think, like ISTPs, have more of a sensitivity (a bit of an incompetence, but a deep sensitivity) in relation to other people, due to inferior Fe.

In the function test you score high enough on all the thinking and intuition to be either, but the extremely high Fi and extremely low Fe would strongly indicate INTJ over INTP.

I could be wrong. I always question myself when disagreeing with LeaT because I usually think she's right.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

ltldslwmn said:


> The Maid of the Mist. It's the boat that rides under Niagara Falls.
> 
> You're definitely an NT. Intelligence is primary for you, and your deepest aspirations are intellectual. It's really hard to tell. I don't know enough INTPs in real life to really get the essence of the type and recognize it in you or not. But I do sort of get an INTJ vibe, and your sensitivities to sensory assault, and your dislike of the five senses, could possibly be related to inferior Se. I don't see any signs of inferior Fe. All you mentioned in relation to Fe is that you'd like to have a few good friends, a wife, and maybe some kids someday, but you were so nonchalant about it, that alone seems more INTJ than INTP. The INTJs I know have a nonchalance about other people, and appear aloof, or shy, but they're really not, they're just in their own minds. INTPs, I think, like ISTPs, have more of a sensitivity (a bit of an incompetence, but a deep sensitivity) in relation to other people, due to inferior Fe.
> 
> ...


I swear I thought he was an INTJ too, I got a strong immediate INTJ vibe, but when I read on, it disappeared. It was the same thing with King Nikolai who first gave off this strong ISFJ vibe too, but as I read on, I didn't think it fit anymore. I could be entirely off with the vibes I'm getting, but that's why I am trying to keep a dialogue. It helps to discern thinking patterns better because first glance can be betraying.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

@Avian

You mostly likely don't dislike all sensors but Fe based sensing feelers the most who taunt your blindspot "Fe", expressing feelings in the way Fe types need you to do so, which feels like squeezing water out of a rock since those expressions are difficult for you. I think you are fairly healthy (well its still really bad but for an likely NT kinda) with your feeling in general since you appear acknowledge at least the need for them. The NTs with the worst feeling function out there are MBTI:ENTJs and MBTI:INTPs who on average learn to detest feeling to a point where it can hinder advancing socially, people need to like you first; INTPs throw childish tantrums under the grip of "Fe", surprising but true and ENTJs die in self pitty, internal chaos. 

Socionics is better than MBTI in general since it doesn't have the superiority complex (intuition and thinking stereotypes) since Augusta acknowledges that its important to be proficient in all 4 functions if you intend to be healthy and successful. Things to consider when typing yourself. - Blogs - PersonalityCafe


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## Avian (Aug 4, 2012)

LeaT said:


> The intents and purposes of that question was to make people compare the pictures in detail so we have more of an analysis of how people think to go off. I notice that a lot of people forget the whole comparison part in the question though.


I'll try it again. The picture of the woman makes me think that everything to look for is already there, the face value is exactly what you get, whereas the second picture of the lake kind of makes me stop and think about the beauty of that particular photo. The picture of the woman seems quite superficial, like everything is handed to you and you don't have to question it, while the lake picture pulls me into a philosophical state of mind. I also really like the dark atmosphere of the lake picture, but I'm not as fond as the warmth in the lady picture.



> Yes, the latter portion sounds very Si working with Ji. It's about how you see things or think of things first and foremost.
> 
> If you must choose the one you dislike the most, which one would it be?


Hearing, it's usually obnoxious conversations (like small talk) and noisy crowds or environments that make me think sometimes it could be better to be deaf.



> Projecting their ego? Care to explain? This honestly sounds a lot like Fe though. I don't think Fi types necessarily pay that much attention to when someone projects their ego onto you, and they would definitely not seek it out as a hobby/interaction-thing to study in other people for most of the part. Fi users tend to prefer to be left to their own devices. They have more of a living-let-live kind of mentality. I completely understand what you mean though - I find studying people and how they project themselves utterly fascinating. That's one of the reasons why I got more into the MBTI and Jungian functions.


It's something I've noticed after studying a bit of psychology and cultural anthropology, I've always been observant of others but these two fields took it to another level. Often times when people don't interpret me correctly and use terms like shy, I find out later that they are actually shy. That's why I'm not too bothered by criticism because more than likely its the person projecting their ego and it actually tells me more about their subconscious magnet. I do it more as a hobby, not at all for interaction.



> LOL, wasting energy. Avarice is such a bitch. I know exactly what you mean though, the feeling of wasting time and energy on people who don't deserve it. It just feels pointless. Bah. The phrasing "preconceived notion is incorrect" is actually one I tend to use quite a bit, heh. I really do think you're just an INTP with a strong Ni. You remind me a lot of @_Brainfreeze_237_. You should contact him. I think you might discover that you got a lot of things in common personality wise.


Yea to me it's just a waste of time and energy, it would take more effort than I'm willing to put in to break that persons strawman conception of me. I'll talk to brainfreeze, check out his threads and posts, compare writing styles etc.



> You're right they don't have to be opposing each other, but the question didn't necessarily ask what we yearn for though.
> 
> Yeah, this is how most INTPs actually think and react to things. We need to feel that we are ones deciding. I hated when my ESTJ stepmother would tell me, "we are going to go this or that" without giving me time to think. I always ended up being stubborn and refusing to go. Eventually she learned and started to give me options: "we are going to do this in X amount of time. Decide until then what you want to do". That works so much better for me. Then it feels like I have a choice. I might still not want to go though. I'm primarily self-preservation instinct first, so I will often not do things if I find that I don't have time to do it. It comes down to planning. Did I plan to do this or that today? Do I have time to do this new thing? If I don't, I will say no. For example, my ENFP friend asked me to come over one day, and I was just standing in the doorway about to leave to do grocery shopping. I eventually turned down the invitiation because I felt like I didn't have enough time to do both. I had planned to do grocery shopping first, so that's what I intended to do. I put myself and my own needs first.


In regards to that, we are very similar. Do you think it has anything to do with comprehension of Cause and Effect? Or disregard of C&A?



> You often procrastinate? How do you approach theories or other subjects you find interesting? Do you prefer breadth or depth? Do you prefer the tree or the sea?
> (Yes, there is a point to this question.) Why?
> This actually seems to point a little against Ni being your dominant function. Ni people are a bit more aware of this stuff and they have more thought put behind into what they say in a different way than INTPs do.


I do procrastinate quite a bit, but I'm not sure it's intentional. It almost always happens when I'm starting multiple projects (maybe ill drop this project for now because so far it hasn't added anything significant or relevant to the big picture). When I approach something I find interesting I immediately look for different perspectives - I want to know the pros/cons, arguments for or against, validity of evidence etc. Next thing I'm thinking about doing is finding as many resources (mainly books) as I possibly can, and this is before I've really dived into the subject. Once I think I have everything I need to absolutely grasp the topic at hand, then I begin my relentless carnage of the literature. So perhaps it's breadth over depth.

I prefer the sea. The sea has both breadth and depth, you won't really know what's in there until you go. A tree has most of its mass on the surface, which in a symbolic sense is superficial, the deeper you go the more there should be. Think of an ice glacier in comparison to my preference of the sea, on the surface you see 10% of the glacier, but underneath it is the other 90%.



> Yeah, Ti lazy cop-out. XD I suppose this partially answers the question I made above - here it seems like you went for the principle or what you think is the general idea. Breadth over depth. I get Ti rage when you mention traidtions to be honest. I am fairly cerain that would you write why traditions are wrong, you'd break it down and end up with something about, it's all meaningless and has no value, right? What's the point of Jesus and celebrating his death when he was just a man stuck on a cross? If anything, it better highlights Roman cruelty at the time and the lack of humanist values undercurring the pre-Christian era.


Well I think there's also dogma with traditions, so when I break it down it does become quite meaningless, however there's a far richer background if you go deeper. I won't engage in a full conversation since its off topic, but there's a few points I'll try to get across.

A) Jesus was born in the spring, likely after the spring equinox passes placing the date at around April 3rd. He never died and resurrected around December 25th, astrotheology explains it as the winter solstice which is when the sun symbolically dies and is resurrected for the new year ahead. The former is paganism.

B) Christmas just like many other things, is an esoteric truth which has been manipulated into an exoteric falsehood to be accepted by the general public. Examining the Christmas tree itself, you notice it's usually a pine tree with a star at the top. The pine tree (also the pine cone) is an external representation of your pineal gland which is in the middle of your brain, and looks much like a pine cone. The pine cone itself isn't what's important, it's the Golden Ratio (Fibonacci sequence, Phi, etc found in many aspects of nature) that you can see in the spirals of the pine cone. Now on the tree itself we put the lights on in a spiral around the tree. The lights represent the kundalini energy (represented by a snake) rising through the vertebra, up through the brain stem and finally into "the cave of Brahman" where it illuminates the pineal gland and your frontal lobes. That's what the star is for at the top. (The point of dismantling these traditions is to bring to the surface the fact that people are being robbed of their spirituality)

C) This last one I won't expand on, but Santa is an anagram for Satan. Unrelated so is the Tasmanian devil. Tasmania > I am satan.



> Yeah, I know what you mean in a way. Although the INTP big picture is very different to the INTJ one. Do you see the big picture as nodes interconnected and the big picture are the relationships between the nodes or is the big picture about the nodes themselves and how this synthethizes into a larger view?


I see the big pictures as nodes interconnected, with the big picture as relationships between the nodes - I lean quite a bit more to this, it wouldn't make sense to (to me at least) not have strong relations between the nodes, otherwise I may not fully grasp why a particular node fits into the big picture. However, the latter seems to apply when I'm looking for multiple perspectives.

Edit: I've thought about this a bit more and now I'm about 50/50. A good portion of the time I synthesize two different aspects and find out they were essentially the same as before, just that there was two different roads that lead to the same conclusion. Thesis vs antithesis = synthesis. A strong example is my study of the occult/esoteric/mysticism etc and then my study of quantum physics, evolutionary psychology/biology and the sciences in general which ultimately showed me that both were saying the same thing, just different writing styles.



> Not IN your answer, but before
> 
> Yes, I figured it would. The part about holy omniscience is the holy idea of enneagram 5. It's basically the innermost desire that defines enneagram 5 people. I saw strong indicators in your previous post that you're a 5 core, so I posted this to see how true it would ring for you. *I think it hit quite close to home, right?*
> 
> The final paragraph I posted was about the enneagram instincts. I already mentioned I think you're dominantly so/sx, so I posted to see how well you thought that'd fit you too. Honestly, I don't think you're an INTJ anymore. The vibe you give me now is actually more INTP fascination when someone gives them information they have never encountered before <.<


I was actually quite shocked as to how accurate that was!



> Yeah, but that control could as well be attributed to enneagram 8 and that 5s integrate towards 8 too. I know what you mean that you just want to control the outcome of certain things. It would be better if you didn't, but you just have to because you know that otherwise it will all just end up wrong and substandard of what you desire. Also, INTJs are generally speaking not really go-with-the-flow kind of people. They tend to be rather stoic and wanting things their way, otherwise they won't play at all. I think NTPs are more likely to strive for a middle-ground where everyone gets along even if it requires compromise, due to Fe.


I agree that INTJs are less of the type to go with the flow. I go with the flow more than against it (not to be confused with going against the grain) but there's certain aspects that I need to have my way but I think everyone is little like that. I'm usually looking for the middle ground, very much so.



> Out of touch? Out of sync? Destroys your palate in the moment? Can't focus on the here and now or what you really want to focus on? Doesn't sound like Se. Sounds more like Si.
> 
> Were you ever diagnosed as a hyper-sensitive person? Again, I kind of get Si here though, not Se.


Nope, the only diagnose that's long term is "borderline autism" when I was three.



> The more I read from you the more certain I become that you're probably an INTP and not an INTJ. I was first going to say that you're an INTJ with strong Ti, but I think you're more likely an INTP with strong Ni. In general though, I don't really see the Ni from you. I would say that the fact you also asked to be retyped would also kind of point towards that you deep down maybe recognized that the INTJ label was not the best fit for you after all. Enneagram 8 has a lot of qualities or tendencies that seem very INTJ or ENTJ-ish, and I can see why you could potentially confuse that. 548 and 584 has a certain level of intensity that most INTPs lack as a quality. It's in general not a very common enneagram tritype. I can see how it's easy to mistake that intensity for Te in particular, because 8 is fairly action-oriented, especially when paired with a sexual instinct. 8s like to see results and engage themselves, and it mellows out the more observant behavior of 5.
> 
> I also want to add that 8 and 3 are two ennegram types quite strongly associated with Te users, so there's also that correlation. I was for example typed as an ISTJ because my desire to dominate and control due to enneagram 5 integration and my strong 8 wing resulted in what one could think of as more stereotypical Te behavior. I can be fairly result-oriented when in that mindset. Coupled with my weaker 3 wing to my 4, I can be very goal-oriented in particular. I'm also highly competitive due to my strong sexual instinct, and it's probably exacerbated because of my enneagram tritype and wings.
> 
> Anyway, just as a double-check, I am going to give you a theoretical task. You're stuck in the woods and you don't know the way where to go, and it's getting dark and you have to find your way home before it's completely dark. What will you do? How will you try to find your way back home?


Provided the sun hasn't completely set then there would be shadows on the ground from the trees which would (assuming the woods are covering the sun) indicate where the sun is, and from that I can tell N/S/E/W. I have some knowledge from the television show "Man Tracker" on tracking human prints so I could probably end up finding my way out just based on that. If it gets dark and I can't see the footprints, broken tree branches, rocks indented in the ground etc that won't be a problem as I'll probably already be walking in the direction of home.

Easier said then done.

@LeaT thank you for the navigation so far and all of the extra information (especially on enneagram).


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## Avian (Aug 4, 2012)

ltldslwmn said:


> The Maid of the Mist. It's the boat that rides under Niagara Falls.
> 
> You're definitely an NT. Intelligence is primary for you, and your deepest aspirations are intellectual. It's really hard to tell. I don't know enough INTPs in real life to really get the essence of the type and recognize it in you or not. But I do sort of get an INTJ vibe, and your sensitivities to sensory assault, and your dislike of the five senses, could possibly be related to inferior Se. I don't see any signs of inferior Fe. All you mentioned in relation to Fe is that you'd like to have a few good friends, a wife, and maybe some kids someday, but you were so nonchalant about it, that alone seems more INTJ than INTP. The INTJs I know have a nonchalance about other people, and appear aloof, or shy, but they're really not, they're just in their own minds. INTPs, I think, like ISTPs, have more of a sensitivity (a bit of an incompetence, but a deep sensitivity) in relation to other people, due to inferior Fe.
> 
> ...


Hey just posting to let you know I'm aware you posted and thank you for your reply, every piece helps! There's things you mentioned that make you see INTJ in me, but like LeaT said a continuous dialogue is quite a bit more purposeful. 

Edit: Maid of the Mist, yes that's it!



Boolean11 said:


> @Avian
> 
> You mostly likely don't dislike all sensors but Fe based sensing feelers the most who taunt your blindspot "Fe", expressing feelings in the way Fe types need you to do so, which feels like squeezing water out of a rock since those expressions are difficult for you. I think you are fairly healthy (well its still really bad but for an likely NT kinda) with your feeling in general since you appear acknowledge at least the need for them. The NTs with the worst feeling function out there are MBTI:ENTJs and MBTI:INTPs who on average learn to detest feeling to a point where it can hinder advancing socially, people need to like you first; INTPs throw childish tantrums under the grip of "Fe", surprising but true and ENTJs die in self pitty, internal chaos.
> 
> Socionics is better than MBTI in general since it doesn't have the superiority complex (intuition and thinking stereotypes) since Augusta acknowledges that its important to be proficient in all 4 functions if you intend to be healthy and successful. Things to consider when typing yourself. - Blogs - PersonalityCafe


No I don't dislike all sensors, just my experiences with most of them have been distasteful. It could be an age thing as well. It's expressing the emotion that's a problem, I'm certainly aware of my own and I'm aware of others emotions but not even close to the extent of my own. I mean, for example I can tell when somebody is angry with me, but I may be next to clueless as to why.

Lastly I agree that fine tuning the 4 functions is a wise thing to do, wether or not it's true, my smoking of marijuana for a few years before this year when I finally quit and only smoke every 4-5 months, has given me so much introspection - very, very close examination of my internal process. I understand it mentally but vocalizing it or putting it on paper is somewhat difficult.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

@Avian, I give you a more in-depth response tomorrow. I changed my mind again XD The way you solved the problem I gave you sounded much more INTJ. Which function do you identify with the most?


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

I am thoroughly convinced that @Avian is INTJ or at least Ni dominant. :wink:


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## Avian (Aug 4, 2012)

LeaT said:


> @Avian, I give you a more in-depth response tomorrow. I changed my mind again XD The way you solved the problem I gave you sounded much more INTJ. Which function do you identify with the most?


Well when I was reading psychological types by Jung I identified strongly with Ni. When Coyote first typed me a while ago she asked me to state which of the two articles i agreed with best (Psychological Types - Wikisocion) I was told to choose between 3.3.1 + 3.3.2 and 3.3.8 + 3.3.9. The latter spoke much louder to me. I don't know if that's enough to go off of though.



FacelessBeauty said:


> I am thoroughly convinced that @Avian is INTJ or at least Ni dominant. :wink:


I very well could be!


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Avian said:


> Well when I was reading psychological types by Jung I identified strongly with Ni. When Coyote first typed me a while ago she asked me to state which of the two articles i agreed with best (Psychological Types - Wikisocion) I was told to choose between 3.3.1 + 3.3.2 and 3.3.8 + 3.3.9. The latter spoke much louder to me. I don't know if that's enough to go off of though.


Not familiar with wikisocion. What about inferior?


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## Avian (Aug 4, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Not familiar with wikisocion. What about inferior?


That page I linked is Carl Jungs' Psychological Types translated, it's basically an ebook. As for inferior, I'm not really sure - I'll have to meditate on that.

So far from our dialogue, what does it appear to be?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Avian said:


> That page I linked is Carl Jungs' Psychological Types translated, it's basically an ebook. As for inferior, I'm not really sure - I'll have to meditate on that.
> 
> So far from our dialogue, what does it appear to be?


I don't know. I need to go through your answers tomorrow.


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## Avian (Aug 4, 2012)

LeaT said:


> I don't know. I need to go through your answers tomorrow.


Alright well I just like to mention that the pattern of this thread is parallel to my doubts. Specifically for you, at first you felt strongly about INTJ, but then INTP shined through and that seemed to be prominent, now it's likely going to lean back to INTJ. This is exactly what's been happening to me, there must be something to pin point it but I guess we'll find out tomorrow!

Thanks again!


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

I must note that reading your posts has been excellent. I do not have a type firmly in mind for you at the moment (Ti-N-S-Fe appears to fit, vaguely, so far), but I've seen some delicious information. I think this has been my favorite yet:



> B) Christmas just like many other things, is an esoteric truth which has been manipulated into an exoteric falsehood to be accepted by the general public. Examining the Christmas tree itself, you notice it's usually a pine tree with a star at the top. The pine tree (also the pine cone) is an external representation of your pineal gland which is in the middle of your brain, and looks much like a pine cone. The pine cone itself isn't what's important, it's the Golden Ratio (Fibonacci sequence, Phi, etc found in many aspects of nature) that you can see in the spirals of the pine cone. Now on the tree itself we put the lights on in a spiral around the tree. The lights represent the kundalini energy (represented by a snake) rising through the vertebra, up through the brain stem and finally into "the cave of Brahman" where it illuminates the pineal gland and your frontal lobes. That's what the star is for at the top. (The point of dismantling these traditions is to bring to the surface the fact that people are being robbed of their spirituality)


If I were active on this thread at the moment, I might be picking your brain more than typing you.


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## Avian (Aug 4, 2012)

Probably said:


> I must note that reading your posts has been excellent. I do not have a type firmly in mind for you at the moment (Ti-N-S-Fe appears to fit, vaguely, so far), but I've seen some delicious information. I think this has been my favorite yet:
> 
> 
> 
> If I were active on this thread at the moment, I might be picking your brain more than typing you.


I've got more delicious information where that came from lol. I figured the Christmas tree thing would catch someone's eyes!


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Avian said:


> I've got more delicious information where that came from lol. I figured the Christmas tree thing would catch someone's eyes!


Congratz to your 200th post!

I still think INTJ tho.


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## StephMC (Jan 25, 2011)

My vote is INTP. A few things that stood out to me:



Avian said:


> Other than that I just need to collect as many resources as possible on the given topic, sort them out according to my method of what is deemed useful, and then plow through it all.


To me, this speaks dominant extraverted perceiving function. Se/Ne gathers as much information as it can given the object at hand (objective), while Ni filters and forecasts based on what it already knows and within the given context (subjective).



> I try to judge them from a non-biased perspective, sometimes I succeed, sometimes I fail. When I encounter a new idea, I try to understand the principles behind it because to a certain extent it has to "make sense" that is, to be able to fit within some sort of logical, rational, or emotionally detached context.


Sounds pretty Ti to me.



> I like abstract concepts and theories, mainly for the reason that outlandish constructs are sometimes interesting in a sort of disorderly way - it doesn't have to fit in with what's widely accepted, or for that matter it doesn't even need to be linear like fractal geometry. On the other hand information that supports the new idea is vital as well. I need to know that there is some kind of empirical data to support the idea, from there it has more room to grow.


Ti/Ne or Ne/Ti. This isn't based on anything other than observation, but I've also noticed Ne types have an affinity towards the concept of fractals.



> *Many times just by hearing another persons suggested idea I can judge it on the spot.* I get a barrage of images or symbols and they all collide so that I can make a decision.


This is an introverted perceiving statement, so Ni or Si. But I would venture a guess and say that tertiary Pi users, IxxPs, can relate to this just as well as dominant Ni or Si users can. I know that I can, as an ISTP.



> Almost everything I say is thought out or previously planned. There will be instances where I try to map out a forthcoming conversation. There's occasions where I don't think about what I'm going to say, that's the occurrence where all eyes are on me, in a real life setting I'm described as intelligent so it must come across as a shock when stupidity flys out of my mouth.
> 
> I prefer one-on-one, it's simply much easier to exchange ideas, have debates, or get to know the other person better. Instead of expending energy on multiple other people (trying to figure out why they are talking about whatever it is they're saying) I can focus my energy onto that person, whereas in group discussions I tend to perceive myself as trying to accommodate all of the members of the group. It's possible but it takes more energy to do it. My biggest problem with group discussions is how fast the topic changes, I want to go deep in the ocean but in a group it seems people want to just get their feet wet.


Sounds like dom Ti/inferior Fe. I've never heard the INTJs express uncertainty about how they communicate their ideas. Te is all about decisiveness and competence. Te users are natural debators. They're focused on the external, objective world. Those ideas don't need to go through a quadruple-distilled (this is an understatement) internal filter like Ti does -- they're already based on the external/objective. Subjective Ti users needs to think their ideas through and compare them to their internal frameworks and models before they can express them externally. And expressing those dominant Ti thoughts can be draining if you have to take the time to translate them for others. Jumping from topic to topic can be hard for a dominant Fi or Ti user to keep up with.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

@StephMC
I guess you are still a newbie everything you've associated with Ti and Ne types works with INTJs Ni and Te types; reading Jung makes things more enlightening.


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## StephMC (Jan 25, 2011)

Boolean11 said:


> @StephMC
> I guess you are still a newbie everything you've associated with Ti and Ne types works with INTJs Ni and Te types; reading Jung makes things more enlightening.


Hahah... yikes. :laughing: Anything more constructive? I do all this to learn


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

StephMC said:


> Hahah... yikes. :laughing: Anything more constructive? I do all this to learn


I would be here all day otherwise, but to put it succinctly:
its all about looking at the thought processes and not the stereotypes, I would be typed as an NF if my answers were to be based on my persona, I'm neither arrogant nor do I appear all confident and rigid since I acknowledge that my answers could be wrong hence I always live room for doubt; and that pretty much breaks your Ne Se stereotype. With answers Te types are always worried about missing evidence in the same way Ne Se types are worried about not perceiving enough information. 

In addition, INTJs are actually perceivers whilst INTPs are judgers, MBTI screwed things up when they decided to associate introverts with their auxiliary function. Ni Te types can look like Ne Ti types, and vice versa when they take the time to rigorously perceive and evaluate/process their facts. At first this seems strange but going by Jung's work, the dichotomies make more sense as thought processes, not behaviours stereotypes.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Boolean11 said:


> @_StephMC_
> I guess you are still a newbie everything you've associated with Ti and Ne types works with INTJs Ni and Te types; reading Jung makes things more enlightening.


Ouch, now that was a bit too harsh.
Indeed, all of the things she brought up were more INTJ things than INTP, still tho.  A bit too harsh.
@StephMC, I'm not the best either, but here's my take on it.


> Other than that I just need to collect as many resources as possible on the given topic, sort them out according to my method of what is deemed useful, and then plow through it all.


This is quite much the classic description of Ni. Note that he said "sort them out according to my method of what is deemed useful", that combination sounds Ni + Te.
Also, Ni is an informational back-hole that pulls information in like "I just need to collect as many resources as possible on the given topic".



> I try to judge them from a non-biased perspective, sometimes I succeed, sometimes I fail. When I encounter a new idea, I try to understand the principles behind it because to a certain extent it has to "make sense" that is, to be able to fit within some sort of logical, rational, or emotionally detached context.


This could be Ti, but could also be Te.



> I like abstract concepts and theories, mainly for the reason that outlandish constructs are sometimes interesting in a sort of disorderly way - it doesn't have to fit in with what's widely accepted, or for that matter it doesn't even need to be linear like fractal geometry. On the other hand information that supports the new idea is vital as well. I need to know that there is some kind of empirical data to support the idea, from there it has more room to grow.


Well, this sounds NiTeFiSe
Ni wants the abstract, Se and Te wants the facts and Fi is generally because he doesn't care if it goes against what is accepted by others.



> *Many times just by hearing another persons suggested idea I can judge it on the spot.* I get a barrage of images or symbols and they all collide so that I can make a decision.


He goes directly to judge it (Pi) rather than to try and build up the idea of what is being said (Ne). So we can assume IJ with that comment.



> Almost everything I say is thought out or previously planned. There will be instances where I try to map out a forthcoming conversation. There's occasions where I don't think about what I'm going to say, that's the occurrence where all eyes are on me, in a real life setting I'm described as intelligent so it must come across as a shock when stupidity flys out of my mouth.
> 
> I prefer one-on-one, it's simply much easier to exchange ideas, have debates, or get to know the other person better. Instead of expending energy on multiple other people (trying to figure out why they are talking about whatever it is they're saying) I can focus my energy onto that person, whereas in group discussions I tend to perceive myself as trying to accommodate all of the members of the group. It's possible but it takes more energy to do it. My biggest problem with group discussions is how fast the topic changes, I want to go deep in the ocean but in a group it seems people want to just get their feet wet.


This doesn't actually tell us anything.
Any/most types could say this.


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

I finally have some time and energy to do a play by play of the questionnaire that started it all. Bear with me here. 



Avian said:


> I'm making this thread because I'm stuck between INTJ and INTP, Coyote helped me a lot about a month ago. She seemed to feel strongly that I was INTJ, but there was a few instances where she could see INTP. Personally, although I know the cognitive functions of the two types are different, I'm still bouncing back and forth. I've concluded awhile ago, that tests are just pointers - it's better if I/you type ourselves or congregate with people who have a better handle on Jungian psychology. Here's the questionnaire I filled out;
> 
> *1) What aspect of your personality made you unsure of your type?*
> 
> I'm not entirely sure about my doubts, mainly because of slight discrepancies. An example that I can think of is how orderly INTJs can be vs INTP. With the J function there should be more order in my thoughts, materialistic things, and planning. Maybe I have a weak J, I don't know but it's little things like that which makes me reexamine certain issues.


Are you referring to J in terms of the functions or the MBTI dichotomies? 



Avian said:


> *2) What do you yearn for in life? Why?*
> 
> The main thing I live for is information, without something intellectual occupying my mind at all times I might not know what to do with myself. A big part of all the knowledge is just for personal reasons, but a small part of me wants to be able to help others when they need advice or guidance in trying to solve their problems.
> 
> I yearn for absolute freedom of my mind, to be the essence of an individual. Why? I don't really know, it's just always been important to me to be as unique as possible. Other than that I can say I don't yearn about the usual things people want in life, solitude is mostly what I'm going for.


That could be attributed to enneagram 4, but your values seem to be more self-focused than anything, so it could be Fi.



Avian said:


> *3) Think about a time where you felt like you were at your finest. Tell us what made you feel that way.*
> 
> To be honest, these last few years since I've gotten out of high school, have put me at my finest. I think it just has to do with the fact that I have much much more time to myself now, I'm always teaching myself in a quiet environment as opposed to the loud and obnoxious atmosphere of my classrooms, plus I'm telling myself what to think. I've made many choices which have had much better outcomes from what I had expected probably because I have less stress in my life at the moment. Physically I've never been healthier since I took the time to reevaluate my diet, and mentally I'm in another dimension altogether. That's about all I can say, right now my life is very ideal for me.


Not sure what to make of this, but if this is what post-high school life could be like, sign me up.



Avian said:


> *4) What makes you feel inferior?*
> 
> Tough question because I'm so used to detaching my emotions which usually makes me indifferent to criticisms, other people's perceptions of me, so on and so forth. The only thing I can think of that on the odd occasion makes me feel inferior is dismissal of my knowledge without a rational reason. Maybe the other person doesn't like what I'm telling them so they get emotional then say something like "you don't know what you're talking about". A second thing just hit my mind, it's when others tell me what I *need* to do.


Hmmmmmm. Maybe feeling is lower in the functional stack, but I'm reluctant to say it's the inferior. This seems just a bit more Fi since you're dismissing other people's perceptions because they don't matter to you. Why does it bother you when people tell you what you need to do?



Avian said:


> *5) What tends to weigh on your decisions? (Do you think about people, pro-cons, how you feel about it, etc.)*
> 
> I think about a lot of things when considering a decision I'm about to make, however a large portion of it is unknowable when it really comes to making the decision. I'll think about many variables ex; a) Is this logical or rational b) Am I the kind of person who wants to partake in this? c) Does it go against my morals and values? d) Will this drain too much of my energy? e) How is this going to affect me later on? These are surface questions to help with the decision but how I process the information and come to a conclusion is still a strong mystery to me, even until today.


Seems a lot more like Te-Fi partaking in the decision making process. Strong preference for thinking since you're concerned about whether something makes logical sense.



Avian said:


> *6) When working on a project what is normally your emphasis? Do you like to have control of the outcome?*
> 
> If it's a group project I'm usually indifferent to what the result is likely to be. In a classroom setting, for example, I was never leader of the team in a group assignment, and I never wanted to be either. I would always just do my part, mainly because in our school we were marked according to contribution, so I didn't have to worry about the incompetence of others. If it was graded as a whole then I'd probably step up and make sure everyone does what their supposed to.
> 
> So it's highly situational in that aspect of teamwork. With a project that I'm working on by myself it's just infinitely better - my interests are in the right place, I've planned it beforehand, and I know what the outcome will be assuming I have done everything orderly, if the result isn't precisely what I expected I usually have back up plans.


Seems like what a J type would be considered more likely to do. Planning beforehand? What are you, some sort of evil genius plotting world domination? 



Avian said:


> *7) Describe us a time where you had a lot of fun. How is your memory of it?*
> 
> I remember my uncle bringing me and my brother to Niagara Falls, his girlfriend just had a baby so we went down there to celebrate her birth and my birthday (the dates are close enough). We stayed in a hotel for three days. There was quite a bit that I experienced there, namely the outrageous prices. We went to see an interactive 3D movie, which was my first time seeing one, went to many different arcades, movies etc. The best part of it was the boat ride (I forget what it's called, something to do with maiden/fairy), I just wish they would have cruised closer to the waterfalls.


Hmmm. So many things I could do with this one memory. I'll leave it alone. 



Avian said:


> *8) When you want to learn something new, what feels more natural for you? (Are you more prone to be hands on, to theorize, to memorize, etc)*
> 
> I guess it depends, when I first started landscaping I needed to learn hands on because there isn't really any brains involved in lawn maintenance. However when it comes to learning something new in an academic platform, it's very different. I try to memorize what I think are relevant facts and information that I may need later on, or in many cases just to add to my collection of random facts. I theorize almost all the time, there's not too many ideas/concepts that I can't see myself rearranging or adding a bit of my own perspective to have it more well rounded. Other than that I just need to collect as many resources as possible on the given topic, sort them out according to my method of what is deemed useful, and then plow through it all.


The bit about memorization of random facts seems more Si-Ti, but the bit about rearranging or adding things to ideas and concepts seems more Te. Seeking of all available data and sorting through it might be Te with one of the introverted perceiving functions (Pi). This could also be Ti-Pe as well.



Avian said:


> *9) How organized do you to think of yourself as?*
> 
> Fairly organized but to others it isn't really noticeable. I'll keep my room looking like a disaster until I think it's time to properly clean it, when I do clean it everything gets put away in some kind of chronological order. My living space is usually organized, but it's also usually disorganized. I guess I just have a fetish for wrecking order then putting it back to how it was supposed to be. When it comes to clothes I generally don't look like an organized person, I wear simple stuff but every once in a while I will kind of try to put some more thought in my appearance (not that I care much at all to begin with) but I'm often given the same line..."uhh that doesn't exactly match".
> 
> All in all - fairly organized. I keep certain things that I want to organize, organized, all the time. Other times it goes through a cycle of organized - disorganized. It's a bit odd when I really think about it, I have my playlists on my iPod chronologically ordered but the books on my bookshelf are not. Things like that.


Oooh could go so many ways. To avoid making errors I will leave this one be.



Avian said:


> *10) How do you judge new ideas? You try to understand the principles behind it to see if they make sense or do you look for information that supports it?*
> 
> I try to judge them from a non-biased perspective, sometimes I succeed, sometimes I fail. When I encounter a new idea, I try to understand the principles behind it because to a certain extent it has to "make sense" that is, to be able to fit within some sort of logical, rational, or emotionally detached context. I like abstract concepts and theories, mainly for the reason that outlandish constructs are sometimes interesting in a sort of disorderly way - it doesn't have to fit in with what's widely accepted, or for that matter it doesn't even need to be linear like fractal geometry. On the other hand information that supports the new idea is vital as well. I need to know that there is some kind of empirical data to support the idea, from there it has more room to grow.
> 
> Many times just by hearing another persons suggested idea I can judge it on the spot. I get a barrage of images or symbols and they all collide so that I can make a decision.


Hmmmm. Is it Ni-Te or Ne-Ti? I see a bit of both at times with this one. I think the former has the slight advantage here.



> *11) You find harmony by making sure everyone is doing fine and belonging to a given group or by making sure that you follow what you believe and being yourself?*
> 
> I certainly find harmony in following what I think I should be doing, any situation where I'm out of my element can make finding peace difficult, this tends to happen mostly when something I've planned out doesn't go according to plan. An example would be this Friday that just passed, I wasn't supposed to work so instead I planned on staying in most of the day and inviting a friend over. Even though I was completely energized I performed in a very lackluster manner, without everything falling into place the disharmony of my plans crushed my motivation for doing the job properly.
> 
> ...


What a hardcore introvert. Planning seems to be more of a J thing but anyone can make plans really. I think I've ruled out major Fe usage with you so far. Inferior Fe could work, but I don't think the feeling function is inferior in you. 



Avian said:


> *12) Are you the kind that thinks before speaking or do you speak before thinking? Do you prefer one-on-one communication or group discussions?*
> 
> Almost everything I say is thought out or previously planned. There will be instances where I try to map out a forthcoming conversation. There's occasions where I don't think about what I'm going to say, that's the occurrence where all eyes are on me, in a real life setting I'm described as intelligent so it must come across as a shock when stupidity flys out of my mouth.
> 
> I prefer one-on-one, it's simply much easier to exchange ideas, have debates, or get to know the other person better. Instead of expending energy on multiple other people (trying to figure out why they are talking about whatever it is they're saying) I can focus my energy onto that person, whereas in group discussions I tend to perceive myself as trying to accommodate all of the members of the group. It's possible but it takes more energy to do it. My biggest problem with group discussions is how fast the topic changes, I want to go deep in the ocean but in a group it seems people want to just get their feet wet.


Hahaha yes. Drowning in the sea of thoughts and ideas. _Maybe_ there's some Ni in you. 



Avian said:


> *13) Do you jump into action right away or do you like to know where are you jumping before leaping? Does action speaks more than words?*
> 
> I like to know what I'm getting into before jumping into it, I put a considerable amount of energy into figuring out if it's the right thing I want to do. A good example is when I'm about to purchase a book, I look for reviews, arguments for or against, I match the price with other stores to see if I'm getting a good deal.
> 
> Does action speak louder than words? Not at all for me, I'm rarely caught even talking. If I had to put a finger on it I'd say words speak louder (in the back of my mind I want to say its situational). Word of mouth is good, but a mouth full of words is better.


Hahahaha seems Te here since you require data of some kind to influence your decisions. Emphasis on words over actions I see. Maybe a weaker preference for sensing overall, and a higher one for intuition.



Avian said:


> *14) It's Saturday. You're at home, and your favorite show is about to start. Your friends call you for a night out. What will you do?*
> 
> Well with my small circle of friends we just congregate. Sometimes we go to the movies and do a few other activities, nothing major. However, there are other occasions where I'm asked to go to a club or bar, it's always a club or bar, which I instantly say no to. It doesn't happen as often as when I knew these friends less personally from years ago, so they know I'm never up to it.


Not sure what to do with this one either. Too many variables.



Avian said:


> *15) How do you act when you're stressed out?*
> 
> When I'm stressed out I get very frustrated by things easily, I rarely act out physically so I'm not the type of person to break things, but on occasion I do. I also get very disoriented in my thoughts, and until I get those realigned I'll continue to be stressed. Personally with others I get very impatient, and you better not ask me to repeat something or I might steal your brain!


Oooh you become a zombie? Start a zombie apocalypse when you get stressed out and maybe you'll feel better. Not sure what to make of this though as far as functions go.



Avian said:


> *16) What makes you dislike the personalities of some people?*
> 
> Hmm...intelligence is really all I can think of, to me if you have something interesting about what kind of thoughts you harbour then it's much more appealing to me. It's always when the other person is insecure, generally abrasive, and lusts for a lack of knowledge that I dislike. I know not to judge a book by its cover but there are certain trends and fashion that scream back at me "Douchebag!", chances are if the person dresses like a gangster then that's probably going to shape your personality in many ways. It's not gangsters specifically, it's when the person is trying to play a role in life that they think is right, instead of being themselves.


Seems very Si-Fi since you're making judgements about people based on appearances.



Avian said:


> *17) Is there anything you really like talking about with other people?*
> 
> Philosophy, social sciences, physics, far too many to list but my favourite thing to talk about is the nature of this reality, since the day I came out of the womb I have not trusted 3D.


Hmmmmmmm. 



Avian said:


> *18) What kind of things do pay the least attention to in your life*
> 
> My fashion sense, what people think about my intellectual preferences, achievements of materialism, being popular, social functions, and popular culture. This might seem like an odd one - impressing others based on their perception, I don't need to impress the unimpressed.


Hahaha nice. Maybe Fi, or inferior Fe. 



Avian said:


> *19) How do your friends perceive you? What is wrong about their perception? ? What would your friends never say about your personality ?*
> 
> In my earlier days I was perceived as a narcissistic asshole, no perception at the time about that is wrong. My friends these days perceive me as a good source of information and advice. They know I'm a far better listener than the walls! As for what they would never say? They'd never say that I was an aggressive person, that I'm emotionally involved, that I hold grudges, and they would never say that I can lose a debate/argument.


So many variables, all equally likely. Cannot compute.



Avian said:


> *20) You got a whole day to do whatever you like. What kind of activities do you feel like doing?*
> 
> I'll do research on what I'm normally into, maybe find a few new theories to play around with. Read a book, sometimes I'll go for a short walk, do my laundry and all that kind of stuff. Basically I do nothing, that's an activity right?
> 
> So there's my answers to one of the questionnaires, I'm thinking about filling another out just in case. If you need extra information just ask.


Lol you're a cute little weirdo. Nice choices though.

I think INTJ or INTP could work, but I'm more sold on the INTJ argument.
You might also be something else. I could've been totally wrong in my assessment.


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## Avian (Aug 4, 2012)

@FacelessBeauty

Thanks, I'll go through that and get back to your questions by tomorrow at the latest. Too much disorder today, I can barely think straight, however a few things...

"Little Ni in y...", I think it's a bit weird that Ni is not shining through, when I read the description of Ni from "Psychological Types" it spoke to me in a profound way. The attraction to symbolism, wanting to view the world in abstract images, expressing ones self esoterically etc.. What would you say the function is when your thoughts are so abstract and out there that you can't verbalize them properly, and when you attempt to, it does no justice to how you think? I understand my visions clearly but expressing them into words is very difficult. These visions are extra-dimensional, the very language itself is in symbols!

I'd like to see what you think of my responses with @LeaT after the first questionnaire, if you're up to it.

"You're a cute little weirdo", haha thanks! Mentally and in spirit I'm androgynous, I get the best of both worlds by properly balancing the feminine and masculine energy within us all.


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

Avian said:


> @_FacelessBeauty_
> 
> Thanks, I'll go through that and get back to your questions by tomorrow at the latest. Too much disorder today, I can barely think straight, however a few things...
> 
> ...


Well with Ni users it's really subtle. So that's why I say a little. 
I think what your describing might be Ni actually, but I could be wrong. I do relate to that feeling though, sigh. It's frustrating not to be able to verbalize and explain my best thoughts. 

I will sift through those very soon. 

Well that's great to hear, dear. I think this balance suits you rather well.


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## Avian (Aug 4, 2012)

FacelessBeauty said:


> Well with Ni users it's really subtle. So that's why I say a little.
> I think what your describing might be Ni actually, but I could be wrong. I do relate to that feeling though, sigh. It's frustrating not to be able to verbalize and explain my best thoughts.


Fair enough, and yea it can be frustrating. I'm usually capable of conceptualizing my mental images, but the deeper they go the harder it is. Meh, I can't be self defeatist about it though, I'm only 19 after all so I still got a long way to go before I completely perfect it. Might have something to do with the fact I didn't start speaking much at all until I was about 4 y/o which we went to see many speech therapists for guidance, now I'm light years more outspoken than my peers - figures.



> I will sift through those very soon.


Thanks, all angles of observation will help with this.



> Well that's great to hear, dear. I think this balance suits you rather well.


Indeed, it's what Yahushua was talking about when he said: "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

So many sacred texts which all convey the same truth, it's a shame more people don't accept them all and create a perennial philosophy.


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

Avian said:


> Fair enough, and yea it can be frustrating. I'm usually capable of conceptualizing my mental images, but the deeper they go the harder it is. Meh, I can't be self defeatist about it though, I'm only 19 after all so I still got a long way to go before I completely perfect it. Might have something to do with the fact I didn't start speaking much at all until I was about 4 y/o which we went to see many speech therapists for guidance, now I'm light years more outspoken than my peers - figures.


Hah I started speaking quite early apparently, but now I'm rarely outspoken, unless necessary. Yes there is lots and lots of time left to work on yourself.  You're still young.




> Indeed, it's what Yahushua was talking about when he said: "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
> 
> _*So many sacred texts which all convey the same truth, it's a shame more people don't accept them all and create a perennial philosophy.*_


As for the bit in bold, I've noticed that too, which is why I don't get nitpicky about religion and things like that. So many connections between all sorts things. Gotta love it. :wink:


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

> In the function test you score high enough on all the thinking and intuition to be either, but the extremely high Fi and extremely low Fe would strongly indicate INTJ over INTP.


Just going to go ahead and say that in a few cases, such as mine, this _precisely_ happened...I think you're right though, very likely, because my case is explained by a few things that I state below, which don't necessarily seem to apply here.

One reason was that Fe on that test was too much about doing things like hosting, etc etc. It's a nice test, I must say, but on Fe it grossly missed the mark for me. 

In my case, I made my decision by realizing my enneagram plus my general disposition and my loop led to a heavy development of introverted functions (Si, Fi for instance), but that the actual combination of 4 that best fit me is definitely Ni + Ti + Fe + Se. 

The key is that my Si and Fi are almost always somehow subordinate to things like Ni, Ti. But Fe and Se are not really subordinate to anything, nor do they seem to arise primarily from enneagram -- they're just things that make me who I am.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

> I am thoroughly convinced that @_Avian_ is INTJ or at least Ni dominant. :wink:


Yeah, it's tough to detect Ni, because it's an internal thing that doesn't seem to _directly_ show as well as Si. I think as an Ni-dominant, I identify a lot with Avian's writing style and thought patterns pretty strongly, though, enough that I'm feeling the Pi over the Ji. It's at least a pretty close call. 

I also use Ne, Ti, etc etc pretty significantly at times, but I was easier because Te is so not me.
And Fe-use is a lot more of a "defining feature" of me than, say, Ne-use, if that makes any sense. One is a skill, and the other really speaks to my personality.

What is Avian's tritype?

What evidence is there of strong Te-use? I simply haven't looked in detail enough, but I assume these are readily gleaned if people are still considering INTJ for him.


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## Avian (Aug 4, 2012)

bearotter said:


> Yeah, it's tough to detect Ni, because it's an internal thing that doesn't seem to _directly_ show as well as Si. I think as an Ni-dominant, I identify a lot with Avian's writing style and thought patterns pretty strongly, though, enough that I'm feeling the Pi over the Ji. It's at least a pretty close call.
> 
> I also use Ne, Ti, etc etc pretty significantly at times, but I was easier because Te is so not me.
> And Fe-use is a lot more of a "defining feature" of me than, say, Ne-use, if that makes any sense. One is a skill, and the other really speaks to my personality.
> ...


 @LeaT said 548 so/sx.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Interesting. I am 548 sx-sp, I think.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

@Avian, I just wanted to chime in here and say that I also often suffer from the troubles of verbalizing my thoughts and when I do, I often feel that I have to simplify it all to make people understand. I will try to go through the rest of this now.


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## Allwing (Jul 6, 2011)

Being an INTP (although I may be an ENTP) I see a lot of similarities. After reading some replies from people, I can honestly say that I have no idea. If I had a conversation with you in person I could probably tell within seconds. But, alas, I felt like wasting pixels and webspace with my pointless post.


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## Avian (Aug 4, 2012)

Allwing said:


> Being an INTP (although I may be an ENTP) I see a lot of similarities. After reading some replies from people, I can honestly say that I have no idea. If I had a conversation with you in person I could probably tell within seconds. But, alas, I felt like wasting pixels and webspace with my pointless post.


Yea it's hard to say, the enneagram seems to pin point me accurately though.


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