# The perfect MBTI type romantic pairings Ver 9.2 (Read the OP and prove me wrong if you can; Chapter 0 has the shortened version)



## WickerDeer

"special" is a matter of aesthetics--trying to describe Fi in such a way just reveals a preference for irrational functions and aesthetics over rationality.

Fi and Ti are demanding on the individual. They are very individualistic functions but they are not about being "special" or "unique."

Special and unique are concerns of aesthetics, even if everyone can and does have VALUE no matter if they are different from others or not.

Personally, I find the extroverted judging functions help me relax from the demands of Fi.

Te helps me not give a fuck when I have Te types around me--they give me a break and let me laugh at little things and not obsess over having some watertight, perfectionistic judging system (or something idk...not being precise with language AT ALL here).

I'm sure it might be similar with Ti since Ti is also very demanding on the individual--it comes from within, whereas Te and Fe are much more approximate.

Fe types will just give you snacks and be like "lets be all warm and fuzzy together" especially if it's combined with Si. It's also less stringent than Fi even if Fe will sort of work with social rules for a group. It's more relaxed whereas Fi is more thorough and obsessive like Ti.

So imo I feel more relaxation over my judging functions when I am around Fe or Te types. They give me a break perhaps because they create an external framework so I don't have to put so much demand on my internal Fi framework. And they are more interpersonal--pleasant to share, maybe.

Though I think NTJ make it the most relaxing. Fe is demanding in itself but it has snacks, at least...snacks I don't even let myself have most the time if I'm listening to Fi.


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## ciel sos infel

WickerDeer said:


> I mean "irrational" in how Jung uses it. As two types with dominant intuition (any perceiving function Ni, Si, Ne, Se being "irrational")


Okay, our definitions differ wildly. And reading more of your posts in depth now I'm second guessing myself whether you're not an INFP after all. Hard to tell for sure without talking with you in the person (people drop very meaningful hints about who their are, totally off hand when they are in the presence of an INFJ for some reason) or asking some very specific questions and I don't want to diverge from the topic too much. The first post I of yours I've read gave me the gut feeling that you're an ENFP because the train of thought looked so disarranged I couldn't comprehend what's going on in there.



WickerDeer said:


> In some way, to me it means amoral. And that is what I mean by irrational--focused on sensation...focused on "aesthetics" and not ethics or morality.


Yea, Se grip happens but it happens also when I'm alone. That's how Se weakling processes stress. Probably what you're seeing is that they actualise their aspirational forms (ESFP for INTJ and ESTP for INFJ) and that's a good thing. That's a very developemental thing too. If an INFJ for example masters both anima/us and aspirational forms there's a likelyhood he or she will take control over their super-ego and won't turn into another Hitler under pressure. That's a good thing I'd say. As for sensuality, even the intense, deep or seemingly dark it isn't evil, it just needs to be contrained within the frame of a loving relationship.



WickerDeer said:


> Especially with romance/love ethics and morality are kind of important to me. I'm not into the whole predator/prey idea of sex or romance. I am into the like "love forever" apallonian kind of thing more. Pure sensations nd Se stuff can seem kind of scary to me even if I can be a bit obsessive and probably creep people out in my own way.


I hate how relationships are conducted nowadays too, if you'd believe me. I'm very much into the "love forever" idea as well, that's another reason why I'm trying to figure out mechanisms behind attraction and what works and what doesn't. I was in a relationship I was convinced was with my one and only (ENFP) and I got burned so bad I haven't dated anyone for... I don't want to embarrass myself but rather long (no, not 1 year kind of long either). I obviously didn't understand how love works at all back then. Over time, from what I've heard from other hurt men, I've come to suspect that a lot of women turned psychopathic and I gave up on the idea of ever finding love at all, at least how I imagine it, it's only recently that I realized some theoretical basis for how I could maybe, just maybe, find someone who has similar needs to me.
So next time you see INTJ-INFJ couple turning rather sensual please try to look at it differently. Realize that this is only the external display of a most profound connection that they probably would like to continue throughout eternity if such thing is possible.
I'm sorry if I were harsh, I completely misunderstood where you were coming from.


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## ciel sos infel

thisisme said:


> I really couldn't see myself with an entp. i like just switching the e/i and keeping everything else the same


Any particular reason why not?
My ex ENFP girlfriend adored the character of Jack Sparrow, that's an ENTP from what I can tell.
Elsewhere I've read that ENFP's greatest fear is missing out on things to experience (ESTP super ego) and ENTPs are very interesting and open people.


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## DOGSOUP

T types IME

STJs can handle bullshit exceedingly well but it can get mutually annoying quick thanx to shared trait of stubbornness
NTPs have higher tolerance for nonsense but don't quite know what to make of it, romance lacks direction
STPs chill and exciting but they are not serious about me
NTJs we definitely do not hangout IRL but they are fun to argue with on online forums though they would not say half of this shite to people's faces lol

Meanwhile ESFJs: cook with me, want to travel and live together, can get past the occasional tsundereness with ease, unconditional support (???) ... the only downfall is: they don't practice what they preach, but the more they care the more they preach....
Not what I thought my ideal type was but in practice has the much appreciated combo of persistence + emotional savviness which I guess matches whatever romantic expectations I have left. Do you guys think I should propose soon?


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## ciel sos infel

DOGSOUP said:


> T types IME
> 
> STJs can handle bullshit exceedingly well but it can get mutually annoying quick thanx to shared trait of stubbornness
> NTPs have higher tolerance for nonsense but don't quite know what to make of it, romance lacks direction
> STPs chill and exciting but they are not serious about me
> NTJs we definitely do not hangout IRL but they are fun to argue with on online forums though they would not say half of this shite to people's faces lol
> 
> Meanwhile ESFJs: cook with me, want to travel and live together, can get past the occasional tsundereness with ease, unconditional support (???) ... the only downfall is: they don't practice what they preach, but the more they care the more they preach....
> Not what I thought my ideal type was but in practice has the much appreciated combo of persistence + emotional savviness which I guess matches whatever romantic expectations I have left. Do you guys think I should propose soon?


Give me data.
Your type:
What do you think about your type but with opposite T/F letter:


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## DOGSOUP

ciel sos infel said:


> Give me data.
> Your type:
> What do you think about your type but with opposite T/F letter:


I did all the T types, as I am fairly sure I am FJ primarily (more introverted in jungian sense, more extroverted in MBTI sense). So far the type to match my romantic expectations best has been ESFJ but ESTJ is one of the last types anyone would type me as.

On paper, I like ISTJ and ENTP. But it pretty much stays on that paper.


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## WickerDeer

ciel sos infel said:


> Okay, our definitions differ wildly. And reading more of your posts in depth now I'm second guessing myself whether you're not an INFP after all. Hard to tell for sure without talking with you in the person (people drop very meaningful hints about who their are, totally off hand when they are in the presence of an INFJ for some reason) or asking some very specific questions and I don't want to diverge from the topic too much. The first post I of yours I've read gave me the gut feeling that you're an ENFP because the train of thought looked so disarranged I couldn't comprehend what's going on in there.
> 
> 
> Yea, Se grip happens but it happens also when I'm alone. That's how Se weakling processes stress. Probably what you're seeing is that they actualise their aspirational forms (ESFP for INTJ and ESTP for INFJ) and that's a good thing. That's a very developemental thing too. If an INFJ for example masters both anima/us and aspirational forms there's a likelyhood he or she will take control over their super-ego and won't turn into another Hitler under pressure. That's a good thing I'd say. As for sensuality, even the intense, deep or seemingly dark it isn't evil, it just needs to be contrained within the frame of a loving relationship.
> 
> 
> I hate how relationships are conducted nowadays too, if you'd believe me. I'm very much into the "love forever" idea as well, that's another reason why I'm trying to figure out mechanisms behind attraction and what works and what doesn't. I was in a relationship I was convinced was with my one and only (ENFP) and I got burned so bad I haven't dated anyone for... I don't want to embarrass myself but rather long (no, not 1 year kind of long either). I obviously didn't understand how love works at all back then. Over time, from what I've heard from other hurt men, I've come to suspect that a lot of women turned psychopathic and I gave up on the idea of ever finding love at all, at least how I imagine it, it's only recently that I realized some theoretical basis for how I could maybe, just maybe, find someone who has similar needs to me.
> So next time you see INTJ-INFJ couple turning rather sensual please try to look at it differently. Realize that this is only the external display of a most profound connection that they probably would like to continue throughout eternity if such thing is possible.
> I'm sorry if I were harsh, I completely misunderstood where you were coming from.


I don't have a problem with people turning sensual. I've only been in relationships with sensors anyway, but what I am saying is that rational functions are important.

People and experiences aren't just aesthetic--they have feelings and are valuable in themselves.

INTPs can be very ethical, and I think it's part of the being a rational type. I'm just saying I really do not think that INFJ and INTJ support each other's ethics and rational abilities, which might not be a problem if both types are actually more rational and less "pure" amoral Ni doms.

Ti and Fi might not seem like they do much, but they do work behind the scenes--there is more to life than whether or not someone's a fashion disaster, when you see people as primarily more than aesthetic experiences.

If you only see people as aesthetics then you run the risk of abusing them, abusing yourself, or abusing your partner. And I also think Se types need to be wary of physical outbursts and that probably means more Fi and/or Ti to help with balancing out their judgment.

I couldn't care less about how sensual INTJ and INFJs get--it's none of my business, but I do care about whether or not the dynamic is dangerous or hurtful to them or to others around them. Everyone should, and it goes beyond type but that is one way to consider the importance of judging functions (rational functions) which help us decide what is logical and what is ethical and right.


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## WickerDeer

ciel sos infel said:


> I hate how relationships are conducted nowadays too, if you'd believe me. I'm very much into the "love forever" idea as well, that's another reason why I'm trying to figure out mechanisms behind attraction and what works and what doesn't. I was in a relationship I was convinced was with my one and only (ENFP) and I got burned so bad I haven't dated anyone for... I don't want to embarrass myself but rather long (no, not 1 year kind of long either). I obviously didn't understand how love works at all back then. Over time, from what I've heard from other hurt men, I've come to suspect that a lot of women turned psychopathic and I gave up on the idea of ever finding love at all, at least how I imagine it, it's only recently that I realized some theoretical basis for how I could maybe, just maybe, find someone who has similar needs to me.


Well I was burned by an Fe dom I think (EXFJ) and I haven't dated anyone for over a decade and I met him when I was 22 and so it has been a long time. I'm not embarrassed. People have different lots in life and also different individual experiences that contribute.

I don't know how much it has to do with type though. 

Idk--I had a long friendship with an INTJ online and we are still friends though he is upset at me right now. I won't talk about his relationship but I will say I didn't appreciate being compared negatively to INFJs. I feel like both INTP and INFP are compared to INTJ and INFJ and often times people act like the INFJ/INTJs are just more logical/more bigger-hearted versions of INTP/INFP even though they aren't even judging dominatns. It's annoying and I don't appreciate being expected to show unending feeling or whatever good thing, even when people take me for granted and show that to me. Just because I am a forgiving person and I care about others doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to have my own happiness in life or someone who appreciates me and chooses me above others, and knows my worth before I am not there. (and this probably makes no sense to you because I'm saying it for the benefit of anyone who is reading this who has decided I owe them something I didn't consent to...I have a lot of psychological issues--more than most INFP even, and people should just accept that--some of us may never find love but we should at least have the freedom to decide for ourselves or to be alone if that is what we want.


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## ciel sos infel

WickerDeer said:


> I don't have a problem with people turning sensual. I've only been in relationships with sensors anyway, but what I am saying is that rational functions are important.
> 
> People and experiences aren't just aesthetic--they have feelings and are valuable in themselves.
> 
> INTPs can be very ethical, and I think it's part of the being a rational type. I'm just saying I really do not think that INFJ and INTJ support each other's ethics and rational abilities, which might not be a problem if both types are actually more rational and less "pure" amoral Ni doms.
> 
> Ti and Fi might not seem like they do much, but they do work behind the scenes--there is more to life than whether or not someone's a fashion disaster, when you see people as primarily more than aesthetic experiences.
> 
> If you only see people as aesthetics then you run the risk of abusing them, abusing yourself, or abusing your partner. And I also think Se types need to be wary of physical outbursts and that probably means more Fi and/or Ti to help with balancing out their judgment.
> 
> I couldn't care less about how sensual INTJ and INFJs get--it's none of my business, but I do care about whether or not the dynamic is dangerous or hurtful to them or to others around them. Everyone should, and it goes beyond type but that is one way to consider the importance of judging functions (rational functions) which help us decide what is logical and what is ethical and right.


From what I read from you I really think you're grossly misunderstanding the nature of the relationships between INTJs and INFJs you've seen.
Don't assume it's only about aesthetics. I've already displayed myself as an idealist, dating an INTJ woman would not change that.
Let's review how mental processing works between the types as far as Fe-Fi interaction
Fe parent takes feedback from the environment ->Ni-Fi computes and constructs meaning/moral judgement -> Fe parent picks it back up without confusing interference from Fe trickster -> Fi critic reacts if something is morally inconsistent -> if nothing is wrong Fe parent puts it out into the environment in emotionally digestible way.
It's a perfect flow diagram for me. Can you point me to where do you see any problems with how this disrupts one another's ethics or rational abilities? I can't understand your criticism at all.


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## ciel sos infel

WickerDeer said:


> Well I was burned by an Fe dom I think (EXFJ) and I haven't dated anyone for over a decade and I met him when I was 22 and so it has been a long time. I'm not embarrassed. People have different lots in life and also different individual experiences that contribute.


Women tend to be allowed more leeway when it comes to these things. I'm not saying you should be embarassed, but I don't want to unnecessarily destroy my public image because for some people that will interfere with what I have to say.



WickerDeer said:


> I feel like both INTP and INFP are compared to INTJ and INFJ and often times people act like the INFJ/INTJs are just more logical/more bigger-hearted versions of INTP/INFP even though they aren't even judging dominatns. It's annoying and I don't appreciate being expected to show unending feeling or whatever good thing, even when people take me for granted and show that to me.


Yes, I've seen that too elsewhere and I agree it's hurtful and unnecessary. Have I done any of that?



WickerDeer said:


> Just because I am a forgiving person and I care about others doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to have my own happiness in life or someone who appreciates me and chooses me above others, and knows my worth before I am not there.


I'm not saying you don't by any means. All I'm saying is his type is most likely INTP.


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## WickerDeer

ciel sos infel said:


> From what I read from you I really think you're grossly misunderstanding the nature of the relationships between INTJs and INFJs you've seen.
> Don't assume it's only about aesthetics. I've already displayed myself as an idealist, dating an INTJ woman would not change that.


I guess it would be "aesthetics" in the sense of Ni. So it would be worldview or way of approaching the world? Way of taking in information?

I do wonder about gender, in your case. Because I feel that an INFJ man probably had to learn to be more well rounded than an INFJ woman, because feelers tend to be women. And same with an INTJ woman--she is also more rounded because she has been taught by society to be more of a feeler. There are a lot of really great INTJ women who are very ethical.

I just wonder in general though, if male feelers tend to have to be more well rounded, along with female thinkers.



> Let's review how mental processing works between the types as far as Fe-Fi interaction
> Fe parent takes feedback from the environment -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ni-Fi computes and constructs meaning/moral judgement ->
> 
> 
> 
> Fe parent picks it back up without confusing interference from Fe trickster ->
> 
> Fi critic reacts if something is morally inconsistent -> if nothing is wrong Fe parent puts it out into the environment in emotionally digestible way.
> 
> It's a perfect flow diagram for me. Can you point me to where do you see any problems with how this disrupts one another's ethics or rational abilities? I can't understand your criticism at all.
Click to expand...

Fi isn't strong in a pair like this--only the INTJ has mostly unconscious Fi. And the INFJ has mostly unconscious Ti. I guess I worry they won't listen to each others judgments or understand them.

But I'm not an INTJ or an INFJ so idk.


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## WickerDeer

ciel sos infel said:


> Women tend to be allowed more leeway when it comes to these things. I'm not saying you should be embarassed, but I don't want to unnecessarily destroy my public image because for some people that will interfere with what I have to say.
> 
> 
> Yes, I've seen that too elsewhere and I agree it's hurtful and unnecessary. Have I done any of that?
> 
> 
> I'm not saying you don't by any means. All I'm saying is his type is most likely INTP.


Women are often expected to have less sexual partners so it can be a boost to a woman's image, to claim that she has been celibate, whereas it may be used to insult men. 

No, you have not done that. But it would be fine if you did--everyone can have whatever preferences. Some INTJs would prefer to be with INFJs a lot. 

It isn't really hurtful to me, but it is kind of weird--I don't understand how empathy is talked about sometimes in mbti.

I am apprehensive about dating another P type like myself. I've found myself more productive and rising to more challenges with a J type, and the J type benefits from slowing down and being able to focus on their internal world with a safe harbor. Though I don't know if I will start dating any time soon anyway, so it doesn't really matter.


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## ciel sos infel

WickerDeer said:


> I guess it would be "aesthetics" in the sense of Ni. So it would be worldview or way of approaching the world? Way of taking in information?


I'm so confused about this one. I feel like I need an interpreter.



WickerDeer said:


> I do wonder about gender, in your case. Because I feel that an INFJ man probably had to learn to be more well rounded than an INFJ woman, because feelers tend to be women. And same with an INTJ woman--she is also more rounded because she has been taught by society to be more of a feeler. There are a lot of really great INTJ women who are very ethical.
> 
> I just wonder in general though, if male feelers tend to have to be more well rounded, along with female thinkers.


That's how it tends to work from what I heard at least. Anyways the standards for masculine behaviour (T types) and feminine behaviour (F types) come from frequency of these types in female versus male population and any deviation from this norm gets deemed as undesirable. I've heard an INTJ woman online saying that she doesn't mind 'feminine' men (translation from Fe trickster - feeling men) so these standards are counter productive for the less frequently appearing types of women and men. There are two standards of masculinity ("muh status" ENTJ for the gold diggers and "gotta fuck them all" ESTP for the sluts) and that's just a total disconnect from reality that drives men into cynicism, resentment and promiscuity or into depression and even suicide while it leads women into relationships that they are then miserable in because the standard put into their heads from the young age by everyone around them does not meet their needs. In the end everyone suffers. The idea of chad needs to be murdered in cold blood before it destroys our civilization. My estimation is that there should be 8 standards, each appropriate to one of the ideal pairs of 16 types so in essence different strokes for different folks.



WickerDeer said:


> Fi isn't strong in a pair like this--only the INTJ has mostly unconscious Fi. And the INFJ has mostly unconscious Ti. I guess I worry they won't listen to each others judgments or understand them.
> 
> But I'm not an INTJ or an INFJ so idk.


I think I finally understand where your disapproval originates from, it's good that I waited before replying. Am I correct thinking that you fear that Fi child will get "devoured" by the stronger Fe parent?
I have taken that into consideration as well!
For example let us imagine an INFP-ENTJ pair. Ne parent is expected to follow Ni's parent's orders and in return Si child get it's comfort needs met by Se child. There's very high erotic tension between the two but it's not love. It's dependence, a top-down relationship, not equality. When the opposite polarities are on the same position that's when the "devouring" happens because they are in a constant tug of war, fighting for dominance (who takes who into it's care - parent vs parent - and who gets to have their childish demand met more - demands for loyalty vs comfort of child functions). I've already explained that Ni (especially Ni hero) doesn't want to force it's will onto others - it wants to be wanted back! That ENTJ, even with the just a tiny bit retarded Fi weakling, will eventually understand that the INFP doesn't love him for who he is nor wants him for who he is, only runs away from their own wants and seeks a sense of security in fulfilling the wants of others and bam! Relationship short circuits and blows up.
However in case of T/F variant pair it's completely different! Again using the example of INTJ-INFJ Fe parents dots on Fi child and Fi child gets to be naively selfish but only to the degree that Fi critic allows it and Fi child finds it easy to sympathize with INFJ because of their similarities so there's no disconnect. There should be no abuse, no overstepping of boundaries, no betrayed expectations and no one way dependency because Te parent does the same for Ti child. That's love, the equal yoke, two halves of the same whole, seeing someone akin to your dream partner (T/F of your super ego) materialize before you and yet still be material and similar enough to you (same N/S functions) that you don't feel terrified or like the dream is going to end any moment now.
The situation is analogous with Fi hero and Fe weakling (INFP-INTP) but I can't very well explain it because I'm limited to what I can introspect and deduce from myself. And again, no need to worry about sexual matters because INTP has that ENTJ inside of them but without the negative baggage, however unlike INFP-ENTJ relationship it's love that comes first not lust and love is the basis and with love comes security which allows partners to jump into their polar opposite/inside-out/ anima(us) forms generating sexual tension when needed.


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## intranst

I would argue that INFP-ENTJ and the like are in fact not codependent because neither party would put up with the kind of bullshit that is often seen in unhealthy behavior of either type. INFPs do not need Si pampering, that would be codependent. INFP's Ne is quick to shut down ENTJ's Ni if it doesn't agree with it, and that is what helps create the dynamic of communicating similar goals, which is relevant when considering a significant other. The INFP's Te is then forced to come out, which is necessary for the coordination to take place to begin with. An ENTJ will be quick to move on from an INFP that needs to spend days on end thinking about a decision in regards to merely discussing relationship expectations, and they should because not wanting to discuss such topics shows lack of interest. From my understanding, there will be an instant push-pull between these two types but it's not to say that it will be a short term flame, it's just that things like expectations, values, goals, etc will be hashed out early which dare I say, is what many people who get in relationships fail to establish and then wonder why they got together to begin with.


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## DOGSOUP

ciel sos infel said:


> There are two standards of masculinity ("muh status" ENTJ for the gold diggers and "gotta fuck them all" ESTP for the sluts)


Geez, well, does this mean ENFJs are the gold diggers and ESFPs the sluts? How does your idea of ideal pairs differ so much from chad-worship. That would just mean we all have an ideal chad to worship, just makin it 16 types instead of... these two which you seem to think are so prominent.


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## intranst

I'll be honest, when I first read "gotta fuck them all" I thought of Pokemon lol. Where's that INFP-chad, aka the 16personalities hippie girl after she lifts, bro..


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## intranst

Typical INFJs and INFPs here trying to perfect romantic relationships.


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## WickerDeer

ciel sos infel said:


> I'm so confused about this one. I feel like I need an interpreter.


The concept of reality seems like it's got to be a mix of aesthetics and also rational conception, truth is maybe a value given to something by a judging function?

Perhaps the Ni is seeking not just to understand reality but to seek the truth. But I wonder if it tries to create truth to. Does it try to change reality in some unconscious way--through Ti or something.

I wonder if there is a psychological defense mechanism that causes people to over-generalize when they've been hurt by someone, in an effort to avoid the threat in the future.

Trying to overlay people's individual actions with some structure some system that will predict who and what will do it in the future by their "nature" in this sort of stagnant self-contained and universal social structure you are trying to build.



> That's how it tends to work from what I heard at least. Anyways the standards for masculine behaviour (T types) and feminine behaviour (F types) come from frequency of these types in female versus male population and any deviation from this norm gets deemed as undesirable. I've heard an INTJ woman online saying that she doesn't mind 'feminine' men (translation from Fe trickster - feeling men) so these standards are counter productive for the less frequently appearing types of women and men. There are two standards of masculinity ("muh status" ENTJ for the gold diggers and "gotta fuck them all" ESTP for the sluts) and that's just a total disconnect from reality that drives men into cynicism, resentment and promiscuity or into depression and even suicide while it leads women into relationships that they are then miserable in because the standard put into their heads from the young age by everyone around them does not meet their needs. In the end everyone suffers. The idea of chad needs to be murdered in cold blood before it destroys our civilization. My estimation is that there should be 8 standards, each appropriate to one of the ideal pairs of 16 types so in essence different strokes for different folks.


To me it sounds like you should stop consuming as much of this kind of very emotionally triggering content. I think you hope that if you just consume this information about people's feelings about the world--who hurt who and how people felt--that you will gain a clearer picture of reality.

But sometimes you need to look more with a micro lens at individual motivation than trying to generalize like that. And that can also be painful in a way if you did feel a special affection for an individual who hurt you, because then you have to accept the individual you trusted hurt you, rather than it being because of their nature--as if they are just poisonous snakes doing thier natural thing.

And you also have to accept a loss of control. As with a poisonous snake you know the nature of it and you have some idea of control if you can anticipate it's behavior. That fantasy of being in control of whether or not someone can hurt you is probably soothing as well, to someone healing from an emotional injury.



> I think I finally understand where your disapproval originates from, it's good that I waited before replying. Am I correct thinking that you fear that Fi child will get "devoured" by the stronger Fe parent?
> I have taken that into consideration as well!
> For example let us imagine an INFP-ENTJ pair. Ne parent is expected to follow Ni's parent's orders and in return Si child get it's comfort needs met by Se child. There's very high erotic tension between the two but it's not love. It's dependence, a top-down relationship, not equality. When the opposite polarities are on the same position that's when the "devouring" happens because they are in a constant tug of war, fighting for dominance (who takes who into it's care - parent vs parent - and who gets to have their childish demand met more - demands for loyalty vs comfort of child functions). I've already explained that Ni (especially Ni hero) doesn't want to force it's will onto others - it wants to be wanted back! That ENTJ, even with the just a tiny bit retarded Fi weakling, will eventually understand that the INFP doesn't love him for who he is nor wants him for who he is, only runs away from their own wants and seeks a sense of security in fulfilling the wants of others and bam! Relationship short circuits and blows up.
> However in case of T/F variant pair it's completely different! Again using the example of INTJ-INFJ Fe parents dots on Fi child and Fi child gets to be naively selfish but only to the degree that Fi critic allows it and Fi child finds it easy to sympathize with INFJ because of their similarities so there's no disconnect. There should be no abuse, no overstepping of boundaries, no betrayed expectations and no one way dependency because Te parent does the same for Ti child. That's love, the equal yoke, two halves of the same whole, seeing someone akin to your dream partner (T/F of your super ego) materialize before you and yet still be material and similar enough to you (same N/S functions) that you don't feel terrified or like the dream is going to end any moment now.
> The situation is analogous with Fi hero and Fe weakling (INFP-INTP) but I can't very well explain it because I'm limited to what I can introspect and deduce from myself. And again, no need to worry about sexual matters because INTP has that ENTJ inside of them but without the negative baggage, however unlike INFP-ENTJ relationship it's love that comes first not lust and love is the basis and with love comes security which allows partners to jump into their polar opposite/inside-out/ anima(us) forms generating sexual tension when needed.


I think you might be correct that I'm worried about something like Fe dominating the child Fi or Te dominating the child Ti.

One difference between ENTJ/INFP and INTJ/INFJ is that Ni is introverted, and perhaps introverted functions don't dominate or devour the extroverted counterpart quite as readily. Plus Ni and Ne aren't judging functions, just functions that help take in information about the world. 

I don't think what you're describing is love. You can't love someone instantly because you cannot instantly know who they are.

You must get to know them as an individual.

So you always risk heartbreak because getting to know someone and building trust requires risking vulnerability and trust.

You should stop listening to too much negative and toxic distortions by heartbroken, angry, and unhealed people. Or at least acknowledge when a rant about someone's ex or the evils of womankind is motivated by pain and do not follow it or take it for "truth." A pain that is unresolved is not yet understood or able to be integrated into the individual.

Or maybe just remind yourself that even though there are these larger trends you can see if you step back and look at large swaths of humanity, that there is still a lot going on at the individual level and that is influencing it also, including these men and women's inability to heal their past traumas and wounds, and the ways in which our social expectations of others allow callous people to hide behind other motivations...or people to do callous things while lying to themselves or others about why. Sometimes it's just unconscious, and obscured by that rather than purposeful deception.

I didn't drink coffee so...you're welcome. 

Love happens over time. You have to get to know an individual. And I do worry about INTJ and INFJ not valuing each others' judging functions...seeing Fi as childish and dominating it when the INTJ need to learn how to listen to it better. Same with Ti. Both Ni doms would already have a preference for the perceivign functions too, which might lead them to ignore the judging functions until they find that habit backfiring as they reinforce Se more than their Fi or Ti.

So I would say the pair really need to sit down and listen to each others judgments and try to understand more individually, and less in the Fe/Te way that sort of paints with broad strokes.


----------



## ciel sos infel

DOGSOUP said:


> Geez, well, does this mean ENFJs are the gold diggers and ESFPs the sluts? How does your idea of ideal pairs differ so much from chad-worship. That would just mean we all have an ideal chad to worship, just makin it 16 types instead of... these two which you seem to think are so prominent.


No. Please never rely on your logical faculties for your own good.
First thing you miss is that in ENTJ-ENFJ pairing the attraction is not shallow or superficial - it's spread through all of the personalities within their stacks. Next issue is that gold digging is Ne-Si thing (fearful or critical of their own future and worried or childish about their comfort), it's not what motivates ENFJ's ego. Lust is not the foundation of the relationship but the result of their love. It works analogicaly with ESFP-ESTP.
My idea differs wildly from chad worship because it's not 10% of men take rest of the women but man of each type has his own ideal of masculinity and femininity to aspire to (I botched the math, it should be 16 not 8 standards) in order to attract and fulfill a person of the opposite sex of their perfect pairing. It's no longer an unjust and unachievable requirement (like expecting an INFP to be ESTP or else his masculinity is called into question - although that might not be the best example because INFPs actually aspire to be ISTPs via their super ego).


----------



## DOGSOUP

ciel sos infel said:


> No. Please never rely on your logical faculties for your own good.
> First thing you miss is that in ENTJ-ENFJ pairing the attraction is not shallow or superficial - it's spread through all of the personalities within their stacks. Next issue is that gold digging is Ne-Si thing (fearful or critical of their own future and worried or childish about their comfort), it's not what motivates ENFJ's ego. Lust is not the foundation of the relationship but the result of their love. It works analogicaly with ESFP-ESTP.
> My idea differs wildly from chad worship because it's not 10% of men take rest of the women but man of each type has his own ideal of masculinity and femininity to aspire to (I botched the math, it should be 16 not 8 standards) in order to attract and fulfill a person of the opposite sex of their perfect pairing. It's no longer an unjust and unachievable requirement (like expecting an INFP to be ESTP or else his masculinity is called into question - although that might not be the best example because INFPs actually aspire to be ISTPs via their super ego).


I know you botched the math. Note that I did not. Now, whose faculties should not be relied upon?

My comment about gold diggers and sluts being a specific type was mocking, BTW. I now you realize you genuinely think it's type related for real, my mistake.

This is not a novel idea though. Most people are ordinary and average, with slight personality differences, and they date other people who are ordinary and average, with slight personality differences.

What would be a better example then if not the one you specifically chose to use?

The biggest issue to me about the T/F switch is that it pairs up the likes of ENTP and ENFP, who share the dominant function, and ENFJ and ENTJ, which are completely different. Does not seem logically consistent in the least, but maybe that's just the fault of my faculties.


----------



## ciel sos infel

intranst said:


> I would argue that INFP-ENTJ and the like are in fact not codependent because neither party would put up with the kind of bullshit that is often seen in unhealthy behavior of either type. INFPs do not need Si pampering, that would be codependent.


That would be inconsistent with every other personality's child function so no. INFPs are very concerned about their comfort, there was even a post in this thread in which one of the INFPs pointed out how ESFJs gave them treats or something (that's a very Si child thing to pay attention to). The cognitive attitude of child function is that it wants it's needs to be met - for example my Ti child wants to be listened to when I speak about my ideas or visions or explain what the so called experts, blind leading the blind, got so wrong. Problem with you INFPs is that you're hearing but you're not listening. You cannot process the information I'm giving you properly because you're unaware of what logic is.



intranst said:


> INFP's Ne is quick to shut down ENTJ's Ni if it doesn't agree with it, and that is what helps create the dynamic of communicating similar goals, which is relevant when considering a significant other.


Yes, Ni critic knows what it doesn't want very well and will act on it. It won't act on what it wants though because it's critical of it's wants. The thing people don't seem to understand if that a person still has wants even if they consciously don't allow themselves to indulge in them! Relying on another's person Ni doesn't do shit to solve that psychological need, it's just a convenient escape mechanism. Now if Ni critic is paired with Ne parent it will actually figure out what Ni critic wants and give it to the person needing it without the interference of Ni critic. Problem solved. Rest of that sentence has no base in reality.




intranst said:


> The INFP's Te is then forced to come out, which is necessary for the coordination to take place to begin with.


What is the cognitive attitude of Te weakling? It's worried about it's status, worried about being respected, insecure about coming off as dumb (and it often does because of the ignorance of logic). So how does the weakling get to feel like the hero it wants to be so badly? It wants the status for themselves. INFP might even end up bitter and jealous about ENTJs status. ENTJ won't tolerate competition in Te matters (see the post from an ENTJ talking about ENTJ-ESTJ relationship ITT, second page I think and INFP in order to actualize themselves needs to develop and master their ESTJ aspirational form!). Why don't you get it?



intranst said:


> An ENTJ will be quick to move on from an INFP that needs to spend days on end thinking about a decision in regards to merely discussing relationship expectations, and they should because not wanting to discuss such topics shows lack of interest.


That I can agree with. Issue is an INFP with it's Ni critic is one of the types that takes the longest to find someone to commit to unless they ignore what they want and go with the flow of another person's Ni but that leads nowhere because it's not what they really want.



intranst said:


> From my understanding, there will be an instant push-pull between these two types but it's not to say that it will be a short term flame, it's just that things like expectations, values, goals, etc will be hashed out early which dare I say, is what many people who get in relationships fail to establish and then wonder why they got together to begin with.


Yes, INFPs and ENTJs are attracted to each other, just like INFJs and ENTPs but it is a sexual attraction and I've been hearing far too many complaints from ENTPs about their relationships with INFJs and I explained why they burn down in OP (negative functions doubling up). Maybe INFP and ENTJ will last a bit longer since Ne critic is not as strong as Ne nemesis but it's the same pattern. It's a passionate romance and then breakup or years of bitter disappointment and misery and I've had enough of seeing it.


----------



## ciel sos infel

DOGSOUP said:


> I know you botched the math. Note that I did not. Now, whose faculties should not be relied upon?


How is a miscalculation the same as logical error? It's INTJs that are big into math so it's probably a Te thing.
Rest of the reply maybe later.


----------



## DOGSOUP

ciel sos infel said:


> How is a miscalculation the same as logical error? It's INTJs that are big into math so it's probably a Te thing.
> Rest of the reply maybe later.


Oh, then maybe I AM ESTJ. But no need to bother, I've had enough of your dismissal of everyone's faculties.


----------



## WickerDeer

I went on some dates with someone I thought might be ENTJ.

He was a physicist and I think he was an E because he enjoyed fine dining and drinking after work--like he did that regularly and for fun, and he knew a lot of waitresses and people.

He was also into some kinky stuff--but could be Ne or Se. I didn't have a physical relationship with him or kiss him or anything, but he would go to sex parties.

Maybe he was an ENTP. 

I remember we got in an argument about books--he wanted to throw away some astrology/new-age religious sort of books and I didn't want to throw away books. And he also said he got into an argument with people recently--he was grumpy or something. But he agreed not to throw the books away because I told him that knowledge is valuable and one shouldn't throw away books.

However, he said he worried that people will not try to do different things in their lives, and will waste their life--as they only have one life, if they are worried about the afterlife. And that people shouldn't waste their life on a fantasy, and that's what religion does.

Then we also argued about GMOs. But I got along with him--I enjoyed how objective he was and how we could talk about anything without it being weird. But I didn't feel romantically he was compatible or interested, though he did say he fell in love once in his life, with a good friend and the worst day of his life was when she got married. We were good hanging out as friends but I could sense his loneliness and I am also a lonely person, so if it's not compatible better not to just stew in that tension, and rather to just do something else alone. Plus I didn't like wasting time and money on fine dining--it's not very rewarding to me. I would rather be exploring nature or going to museums or many other things, though it is fun to do for sure a little bit and I did have fun going to fancy places that I'd never normally go.

I'm not sure what his type was--I think an NT but not sure if ENTJ or ENTP. I would guess ENTJ but I don't know any Thinkers IRL and haven't been around them much.


----------



## Negotiator

I just remembered I chatted for a while with an ENFJ and we were setting up a date but it never came of it.

He had this obsession with Cambridge Analytica and when I expressed not being particularly interested in it, he kept insisting I should read up on it. Truth be told, it's just one of those topics I don't care about - but if he'd had the passion for, say, war in Syria then maybe we would've had good discussions. 

I had like an epiphany that Magic Mike is named after "magic on the mic" in the song Can't Touch This and he wasn't very impressed by that either.

Looks-wise, he didn't match my style but he was handsome and nice enough that we could've dated.

As for INFP, very intrigued by them.


----------



## WickerDeer

I feel like the argument I had with the ENTX type about books reminded me a little of the arguments I'd have with my best friend in high school who I think may have been an INTJ.

She would do this thing very rarely where she'd press my buttons until she got an emotional reaction, and it was almost like she was checking something.

She actually told me once, she was checking to see that I had feelings, which is kind of weird for me as a feeler since I do and they can be kind of tumultuous at times.

Much of our discussion and hanging out were casual and we didn't talk about feelings so much, which I find kind of relieving, because I like the diversion of being able to focus on more objective topics and just entertain ideas and explore what's interesting, rather than what's deeply important, maybe.

But sometimes she would sort of push me a little bit until she caught a glimpse of an emotional reaction, and then withdraw--I wonder if it's something about testing out other people's intentions or feelings. She would not push any further at a certain point though--almost like she was extrapolating my personality from that more pure/deeper reaction.

I wonder if it's like sensing out Fi and then using that to map out a person's values and predict their actions. That if she knew I got upset about X (like him and the books) and why, then he would be able to understand my deeper values and how they connect with his or disconnect. And so predict my behavior.

Whereas, I wonder with Fe types like INFJ or ENFJ, if they do it differently, because with my Fe ex he would often press feelings too much, and there were times where we had a huge fight when he would simply not believe my feelings. Like he couldn't tell what I was feeling...

And when you think about Fe vs. Fi, maybe Fi zeros in more on values whereas Ti looks more at patterns and systems...like what most people do and the averages. Maybe they have trouble understanding Fi, but when they do understand it they can use that to inform predictions of behavior. At the same time, I think it's much harder for me to feel understood by Fe types than perhaps NTJs. Because perhaps Fe probes differently...or uses the average to compare...so uses some kind of culmination of all the people they've met to sort of place you in a system or heirarchy with Ti.


----------



## ciel sos infel

WickerDeer said:


> The concept of reality seems like it's got to be a mix of aesthetics and also rational conception, truth is maybe a value given to something by a judging function?
> 
> Perhaps the Ni is seeking not just to understand reality but to seek the truth. But I wonder if it tries to create truth to. Does it try to change reality in some unconscious way--through Ti or something.


Ni-Ti is truth, the only problem is Te trickster's faulty input. Like I wrote in this thread already INFJ is a logic bot, a computer programmed to detect bullshit (logical inconsistency). Ti is not unconscious in any way shape or form for INFJ, I don't know why you think that. The child function is well inside the ego and a person is conscious of everything within the bounds of ego.
Ni is a network of conclusions, just like Si is a network of data. Another way to look at Ni is a pyramid built from the grounds up, each trapezoid layer bringing the thought closer to a point of conclusion, the apex, but it's insanely difficult to relay years and years of observations and retrace each step that took you there in order to explain it and even if you try before you get anywhere people get bored anyway. It is a very long process but it's insanely accurate at producing the closest thing to truth that is, as far as human standards go.
Myself I sometimes imagine that once God took me to a place where all the truth of all things was and let me look at it but when I returned to myself I forgot it all, unable to contain such vast knowledge. However when I see a piece of truth I get this gut feeling that drives me to dig deeper, like a hound picking on a scent, like the feeling you get when you're about to remember something. I'm not saying I believe that's what happened, it's just a handy way to try to describe how it feels I guess.



WickerDeer said:


> I wonder if there is a psychological defense mechanism that causes people to over-generalize when they've been hurt by someone, in an effort to avoid the threat in the future.


Getting hurt was only one of the motivations and no matter the motivation my logic has not been disproven. It's meaningless for the accuracy of my theory to ponder my motivations.



WickerDeer said:


> Trying to overlay people's individual actions with some structure some system that will predict who and what will do it in the future by their "nature" in this sort of stagnant self-contained and universal social structure you are trying to build.


I have issued the warning, if you do not want to listen then suffer and find out for yourself. People aren't as unpredictable as they deem themselves to be. Do you know how it feels knowing what will happen, warning people about it, seeing them mock your warning and then seeing it happen time and time again? The satisfaction from being able to smugly say "I've told you so." "I've warned you." gets stale rather quickly. But Ne-Te doesn't listen, because it believes things can turn out differently this time around, because life is a magical adventure rather than the valley of death and despair because you don't comprehend logic (pretty much as much as I have a shitty information retention).



WickerDeer said:


> To me it sounds like you should stop consuming as much of this kind of very emotionally triggering content. I think you hope that if you just consume this information about people's feelings about the world--who hurt who and how people felt--that you will gain a clearer picture of reality.
> 
> But sometimes you need to look more with a micro lens at individual motivation than trying to generalize like that. And that can also be painful in a way if you did feel a special affection for an individual who hurt you, because then you have to accept the individual you trusted hurt you, rather than it being because of their nature--as if they are just poisonous snakes doing thier natural thing.
> 
> And you also have to accept a loss of control. As with a poisonous snake you know the nature of it and you have some idea of control if you can anticipate it's behavior. That fantasy of being in control of whether or not someone can hurt you is probably soothing as well, to someone healing from an emotional injury.


If I stand in the postion of truth I can solve problems that hurt you and thus me. I'm not just myself. You know when Jesus said "Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did it to one of these my brethren -- the least -- to me ye did it.", that's not magic, it's INFJ's Fe (or high Fe in general, I don't know) only on a vastly higher scale. Don't try to fix me as an individual, it's useless. If you're really curious about INFJ thoughts read Schopenhauer, that guy gets it and probably explained it better than I can right now.



WickerDeer said:


> One difference between ENTJ/INFP and INTJ/INFJ is that Ni is introverted, and perhaps introverted functions don't dominate or devour the extroverted counterpart quite as readily. Plus Ni and Ne aren't judging functions, just functions that help take in information about the world.


I'll try to explain it again.
A perceiving hero can be pals with same hero and rescue him from his nemesis because perceiving function is a passive support to judging function - for one type it'll be used for Fi for other for Ti things - they don't overlap Ni is just a tool and Ti or Fi is a craftsman. A judging hero will be at odds with the same judging hero because they're doing the same thing, even if they're using different method (ENTJ-ESTJ conflict described by that one ENTJ - sorry I'm bad with names) - they are rivals. Hero feels most like a hero when it saves the weakling of it's polar opposite. It can teach another weakling of the same kind (ENTJ-INFP is a mentor relationship) but when the coaching is over they part ways or else they're competing for the same resource. Parent feels most like a parent when it takes care of a child of the opposite polarity.
That's how it works. Either it'll click for you or not. I don't know how to explain it any better.




WickerDeer said:


> I don't think what you're describing is love. You can't love someone instantly because you cannot instantly know who they are.
> 
> You must get to know them as an individual.


You can get awed instantly though. And you can fall in love (which is infatuation more than love) which then can grow into love. Correct. I wasn't trying to describe love in general just show how the attraction between T/F variants works.



WickerDeer said:


> So you always risk heartbreak because getting to know someone and building trust requires risking vulnerability and trust.


Getting into a car with breaks that don't work is lunacy. You might survive yes, and likewise there might be a malfunction in a perfectly new car but if there is a way to check the breaks before driving it only makes sense to do it.



WickerDeer said:


> You should stop listening to too much negative and toxic distortions by heartbroken, angry, and unhealed people. Or at least acknowledge when a rant about someone's ex or the evils of womankind is motivated by pain and do not follow it or take it for "truth." A pain that is unresolved is not yet understood or able to be integrated into the individual.


Have you been behind my shoulder every time where I did that and I haven't noticed it? If not then what do you know about what I did or didn't and what attention have I paid to what and for how long and how reliable the source was? Please don't do that, it leads nowhere.



WickerDeer said:


> Or maybe just remind yourself that even though there are these larger trends you can see if you step back and look at large swaths of humanity, that there is still a lot going on at the individual level and that is influencing it also, including these men and women's inability to heal their past traumas and wounds, and the ways in which our social expectations of others allow callous people to hide behind other motivations...or people to do callous things while lying to themselves or others about why. Sometimes it's just unconscious, and obscured by that rather than purposeful deception.


I can't fix every person individually but I can show them there is a better way which will lessen the suffering by a significant margin. I've thoroughly examined what I'm about to do and it is logically sound to my mind, were it not I wouldn't be doing it because Fi critic wouldn't let me act on my own whims. I can't even understand why are you doing this but you're trying to undermine my logical judgement from a Fi standpoint and that's not going to work.
I have to thank all these INFPs that rejected my confessions because were it not for that I'd have to struggle with these kinds of conversations for years.



WickerDeer said:


> I didn't drink coffee so...you're welcome.


Don't force yourself to write largely off topic replies to my posts then, if that's what that sentence meant. That's the last one from me to you anyway. We're having a horrible time trying to understand each other and you know why? Because our cognitive functions are misaligned as hell. That's why so many people who been through INFJ-INFP relationship for example advise against it stating they couldn't understand each other at all.



WickerDeer said:


> Love happens over time. You have to get to know an individual. And I do worry about INTJ and INFJ not valuing each others' judging functions...seeing Fi as childish and dominating it when the INTJ need to learn how to listen to it better. Same with Ti. Both Ni doms would already have a preference for the perceivign functions too, which might lead them to ignore the judging functions until they find that habit backfiring as they reinforce Se more than their Fi or Ti.
> 
> So I would say the pair really need to sit down and listen to each others judgments and try to understand more individually, and less in the Fe/Te way that sort of paints with broad strokes.


It's like nothing I'm saying gets through. And it's not like you're just disagreeing having understood what I'm saying either. You just fly over the logical consistency of my arguments and revert to your original Fi judgement, same situation as with INTP getting stuck in their Ti-Si loop - refusing to accept any new points that would require them to restructure their entire system of logical judgements. I give up.
Thank you for your kind efforts at trying to give me some Fi insight into my life but this isn't about my life.


----------



## WickerDeer

ciel sos infel said:


> Ni-Ti is truth, the only problem is Te trickster's faulty input. Like I wrote in this thread already INFJ is a logic bot, a computer programmed to detect bullshit (logical inconsistency). Ti is not unconscious in any way shape or form for INFJ, I don't know why you think that. The child function is well inside the ego and a person is conscious of everything within the bounds of ego.
> Ni is a network of conclusions, just like Si is a network of data. Another way to look at Ni is a pyramid built from the grounds up, each trapezoid layer bringing the thought closer to a point of conclusion, the apex, but it's insanely difficult to relay years and years of observations and retrace each step that took you there in order to explain it and even if you try before you get anywhere people get bored anyway. It is a very long process but it's insanely accurate at producing the closest thing to truth that is, as far as human standards go.
> Myself I sometimes imagine that once God took me to a place where all the truth of all things was and let me look at it but when I returned to myself I forgot it all, unable to contain such vast knowledge. However when I see a piece of truth I get this gut feeling that drives me to dig deeper, like a hound picking on a scent, like the feeling you get when you're about to remember something. I'm not saying I believe that's what happened, it's just a handy way to try to describe how it feels I guess.
> 
> 
> Getting hurt was only one of the motivations and no matter the motivation my logic has not been disproven. It's meaningless for the accuracy of my theory to ponder my motivations.
> 
> 
> I have issued the warning, if you do not want to listen then suffer and find out for yourself. People aren't as unpredictable as they deem themselves to be. Do you know how it feels knowing what will happen, warning people about it, seeing them mock your warning and then seeing it happen time and time again? The satisfaction from being able to smugly say "I've told you so." "I've warned you." gets stale rather quickly. But Ne-Te doesn't listen, because it believes things can turn out differently this time around, because life is a magical adventure rather than the valley of death and despair because you don't comprehend logic (pretty much as much as I have a shitty information retention).
> 
> 
> If I stand in the postion of truth I can solve problems that hurt you and thus me. I'm not just myself. You know when Jesus said "Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did it to one of these my brethren -- the least -- to me ye did it.", that's not magic, it's INFJ's Fe (or high Fe in general, I don't know) only on a vastly higher scale. Don't try to fix me as an individual, it's useless. If you're really curious about INFJ thoughts read Schopenhauer, that guy gets it and probably explained it better than I can right now.
> 
> 
> I'll try to explain it again.
> A perceiving hero can be pals with same hero and rescue him from his nemesis because perceiving function is a passive support to judging function - for one type it'll be used for Fi for other for Ti things - they don't overlap Ni is just a tool and Ti or Fi is a craftsman. A judging hero will be at odds with the same judging hero because they're doing the same thing, even if they're using different method (ENTJ-ESTJ conflict described by that one ENTJ - sorry I'm bad with names) - they are rivals. Hero feels most like a hero when it saves the weakling of it's polar opposite. It can teach another weakling of the same kind (ENTJ-INFP is a mentor relationship) but when the coaching is over they part ways or else they're competing for the same resource. Parent feels most like a parent when it takes care of a child of the opposite polarity.
> That's how it works. Either it'll click for you or not. I don't know how to explain it any better.
> 
> 
> 
> You can get awed instantly though. And you can fall in love (which is infatuation more than love) which then can grow into love. Correct. I wasn't trying to describe love in general just show how the attraction between T/F variants works.
> 
> 
> Getting into a car with breaks that don't work is lunacy. You might survive yes, and likewise there might be a malfunction in a perfectly new car but if there is a way to check the breaks before driving it only makes sense to do it.
> 
> 
> Have you been behind my shoulder every time where I did that and I haven't noticed it? If not then what do you know about what I did or didn't and what attention have I paid to what and for how long and how reliable the source was? Please don't do that, it leads nowhere.
> 
> 
> I can't fix every person individually but I can show them there is a better way which will lessen the suffering by a significant margin. I've thoroughly examined what I'm about to do and it is logically sound to my mind, were it not I wouldn't be doing it because Fi critic wouldn't let me act on my own whims. I can't even understand why are you doing this but you're trying to undermine my logical judgement from a Fi standpoint and that's not going to work.
> I have to thank all these INFPs that rejected my confessions because were it not for that I'd have to struggle with these kinds of conversations for years.
> 
> 
> Don't force yourself to write largely off topic replies to my posts then, if that's what that sentence meant. That's the last one from me to you anyway. We're having a horrible time trying to understand each other and you know why? Because our cognitive functions are misaligned as hell. That's why so many people who been through INFJ-INFP relationship for example advise against it stating they couldn't understand each other at all.
> 
> 
> It's like nothing I'm saying gets through. And it's not like you're just disagreeing having understood what I'm saying either. You just fly over the logical consistency of my arguments and revert to your original Fi judgement, same situation as with INTP getting stuck in their Ti-Si loop - refusing to accept any new points that would require them to restructure their entire system of logical judgements. I give up.
> Thank you for your kind efforts at trying to give me some Fi insight into my life but this isn't about my life.


Just because I'm not agreeing with you doesn't mean nothing you are saying is getting through to me. Maybe not what you WANT to get through to me.

Well, I advise you to consider what you actually want, your deeper values, to introspect on that a lot, and to also have firm boundaries when you engage with an INTJ. And perhaps, without rose-colored glasses reflect on what they want with you and what they intend to do, and what they expect you to do for them. 

Also, I don't know why the child function is well within the ego--maybe it's half grown, like a child. And so only half conscious.

Everyone's different and I just personally haven't been impressed by INFJ/INTJ dynamics I've seen, but if it's fulfilling to you and you avoid hurting yourselves and others then it's none of my business. Maybe just remember to check in with how it's going, because every relationship no matter what does require communication and dealing with what's going on in the moment, not just prediction.

Idk--I am not an INFJ or an INTJ and I wouldn't know what individuals are looking for in relationships and whether or not that will work.

I also just think that listening to a bunch of emotional, bitter stuff will eventually wear anyone down. It's stressful and it's toxic if it's too much. No one has the ability to analyze and filter through every piece of information they get, and this is also true (maybe especially true) when it's a very emotional piece if information, like someone's heartbreak story that's distorted by their perspective. So I just think that perhaps if you are very influenced by that and it's affecting your view of the world, then you should focus on something else like maybe what you'd like the world to be like and how to get there, or just what you'd like your life to be like or your relationship. I think if we focus too much on what we can't control (like every person and social issue) then it uses a lot of energy that could be used on more helpful and beneficial endeavors.


----------



## WickerDeer

Anyway--it's probably better for Ni doms to try out their hypothesis and gather more empirical data. So best of luck. I just can't help but feel like I've been here before, in a slightly different place.

But life is about trying things too and just taking the safety precautions...like I guess if you are going to get into a car and you are sure about the breaks, or you have a good estimation--you should still remember to always wear your seat belt and make sure you are alert so that you are paying attention. Breaks aren't everything, anyway. So you should just try to also have some plans available for when you are driving.

I also haven't got a lot invested in trying to figure out my ideal mbti type so I probably never had much to contribute to this topic anyway. I just go by what I've learned and where I am in life. 

I think it's more about genuine, authentic trust that grows slowly and demands care and shared goals in life--and good communication and desire to understand, and perhaps also matched intentions for where people want to go and who they want to be.


----------



## ciel sos infel

DOGSOUP said:


> The biggest issue to me about the T/F switch is that it pairs up the likes of ENTP and ENFP, who share the dominant function, and ENFJ and ENTJ, which are completely different. Does not seem logically consistent in the least, but maybe that's just the fault of my faculties.


T/F aren't completely different, they are perfectly analogous. That's what you're missing and it is a fault on part of your logical faculties or your insufficient understanding of cognitive functions and 4 sides of mind.


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## ciel sos infel

DOGSOUP said:


> Oh, then maybe I AM ESTJ. But no need to bother, I've had enough of your dismissal of everyone's faculties.


Factually incorrect. I've been only dismissive of INFP's Fi judgements on Ti matters and your dumb shit so go and stay go.


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## intranst

@ciel sos infel I can follow logic just fine, I just don’t apply it all day. If Te is just about status than Fe is just about popularity, but we all know there’s more to it than that. You say ENTJs are gold diggers and then follow it by saying it’s an Ne-Si trait. The four sides of the mind thing undermines a person’s core functioning, if something is unconscious it’s not going to be actively switched on to suit a situation at will. Fi types, if healthy, care about hashing out rifts in a relationship in the emotional realm because that is what is believed will keep the psychological closeness with their partner. INFJs, INTPs, etc will not likely be interested in discussing conflicts that have negatively impacted emotions because as far as Fe is concerned, once the emotion is no longer showing itself in real time, it is no longer relevant. This goes against the constructing of an emotional framework (Fi) and forming an identify around it. Mixing judging functions by definition will cause issues that the other party overlooks, not to mention that they will be taking in information that the other party sees as irrelevant and will even be discouraged by the opposing motivation if recognized.


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## secondpassing

Turned sour.


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## Negotiator

Wait, did he say ENTJs _are_ gold diggers, or ENTJs _attract_ gold diggers?

Because I can do both. 😆


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## ciel sos infel

intranst said:


> @ciel sos infel I can follow logic just fine, I just don’t apply it all day.


What I've said is I'm dismissive of Fi judgements on Ti matters, not all INFPs have to say. If you follow my conversation with WickerDeer I've agreed on some points with her, and I did so too with you. When I see a possibility of reaching an understanding I will make an attempt to reach it.



intranst said:


> If Te is just about status than Fe is just about popularity, but we all know there’s more to it than that.


Yes, each cognitive function is responsible for many things - I have never said anything that would suggest otherwise. What I've been doing is trying to explain example interactions between the functions on examples that make the most sense to me.



intranst said:


> You say ENTJs are gold diggers and then follow it by saying it’s an Ne-Si trait.


Have I wrote ENTJs are gold diggers? I'd have to check. Maybe a mistype or a brain fart. Of course I meant INFPs and it's on the negative side of how the functions manifest, just like not everyone with high Se is promiscuous (even though it does happen considerably often).




intranst said:


> The four sides of the mind thing undermines a person’s core functioning, if something is unconscious it’s not going to be actively switched on to suit a situation at will.


It doesn't undermine anything and the trigger is emotional state (feeling loved and secure - inside out/anima form, stress or a place of confidence resulting from practice - aspirational form, I don't know all the triggers but I think that sometimes you can jump into one of your forms also if you're experiencing something particularly attractive to one of your personalities). As far as doing this on command I think I can jump into ESTP at will now but I'm not entirely sure yet, maybe it's only limited to areas of some degree of expertise.



intranst said:


> Fi types, if healthy, care about hashing out rifts in a relationship in the emotional realm because that is what is believed will keep the psychological closeness with their partner. INFJs, INTPs, etc will not likely be interested in discussing conflicts that have negatively impacted emotions because as far as Fe is concerned, once the emotion is no longer showing itself in real time, it is no longer relevant.


Maybe this was an unhealthy INFP but I've talked with one that was being very dismissive about actually solving an emotional issue. I've heard about INFPs being rather conflict avoidant because of sympathizing via Fi hero and projecting the need for comfort on the other person. INTPs yea, those can sweep emotional stuff under the rug alright (but that was me and the guy being both Fe and misaligned, I suspect with Fi hero it would be different). As for INFJs... I beg to differ, at least as far as close relationship go (with acquaintances yes - not worth the trouble). There's a period during which INFJ might only hint at something and give chances to the other person to reflect on the problem because INFJ doesn't want to force it but that's not a very long time. Sooner than later INFJ will feel pressured to solve the issue because if the judging/finisher nature and the need to go back to a healthier atmosphere will push them to seek resolution. Also my Fi weakling ESTJ mom has been super neglectful in emotional matters so I don't think it's Fe vs Fi but where they are on the priority list of mental energy expenditure.



intranst said:


> This goes against the constructing of an emotional framework (Fi) and forming an identify around it.


I fail to see how. Maybe I'm not understanding you properly. Please tell me what exactly goes against construction of emotional framework and how?



intranst said:


> Mixing judging functions by definition will cause issues that the other party overlooks, not to mention that they will be taking in information that the other party sees as irrelevant and will even be discouraged by the opposing motivation if recognized.


I have no idea where do you see those issues. As far as relevance I don't mind someone paying attention to Te stuff when I can't do it for shit as long as it's not overbearing (so parent instead of hero). That's not a problem for me. For all the shit I talk about my mom for the most of my life I got along with her better than my ISTP father and ESTP brother. I don't see the conflict in practice.
I'll copypaste my INTJ-INFJ example as far as Fi child Fe parent interactions go:
Fe parent takes feedback from the environment ->Ni-Fi computes and constructs meaning/moral judgement -> Fe parent picks it back up without confusing interference from Fe trickster -> Fi critic reacts if something is morally inconsistent -> if nothing is wrong Fe parent puts it out into the environment in emotionally digestible way.
Point me to where you see the problem because at this point in time I don't understand what are you referring to.


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## ciel sos infel

secondpassing said:


> Turned sour.


Irrelevant.


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## ciel sos infel

Negotiator said:


> As for INFP, very intrigued by them.


I don't doubt that, but I'm advising against romantic relations with your mentor type (INFP is that for you because they will show you how to Fi hero so your weakling can follow). You are critical of their determination and so are they (Ne critic doubling with Ni critic). Don't you have trust issues? They are only going to get worse in that relationship because that follows from the negative function alignment.
Didn't you say that your worst relationships were with ESTJs or something? Consider that once INFP's Te weakling observes your Te hero in action long enough they will try to act like it to gain the outside energy it needs to feed itself. You will compete for sources of Te sustaining energy with an INFP. Not immediately but eventually you will. Try to review this information when you feel really comfortable so that you can try to access your INTP state.


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## intranst

ciel sos infel said:


> I fail to see how. Maybe I'm not understanding you properly. Please tell me what exactly goes against construction of emotional framework and how?


Because what Fi does is, at least by default, view emotional expression as authentic to the individual and not means in itself to communicate (Fe). There will likely be a lack of trust from the Fi user if the emotional information they are receiving shows inconsistencies across time (hence framework), which is the same as how Ti operates but in regards to logic.


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## ciel sos infel

intranst said:


> Because what Fi does is, at least by default, view emotional expression as authentic to the individual and not means in itself to communicate (Fe). There will likely be a lack of trust from the Fi user if the emotional information they are receiving shows inconsistencies across time (hence framework), which is the same as how Ti operates but in regards to logic.


That's a good one actually. I had to think for a minute before I realized I've already solved it.
Let me explain.
Where does the distrust of Fi lie? In Fe shadow. This is the main cause of problems between INFPs and ENFJs for example (but there are 3 more).
Is there a solution? Yes there is and it has to do with the position in the cognitive function stack. Fi blind man won't trigger Fe nemesis! Fe weakling by default is so weak it almost poses off as a particularly shy Fi. INTP and INFP flow nicely together judging from the reports I've read in this thread - it's only both being so indecisive they might have problems getting together romantically. That is a hurdle and a valid criticism of my proposition but it's only there at the start and I think INFPs at least shouldn't have issues with starting a romantic relationship from a friendship. Even WickerDeer here said that love requires first getting to know the person better and some other INFP I've talked to elsewhere reflected the same idea.

EDIT:
I figured I'll throw in example from Ti-Te interaction. I hate ENTJ's Te allright, I'm somewhat tolerant of ESTJ's Te but I don't think I'd like it in my romantic partner however when I've had contact with ISTJ's Te (same alignment as in INTJ) I connected fairly easily. You know why? When I pointed contradiction I expected him to dismiss it like some INFPs here did but you know what happened? Deer in the headlight look and he accepted my point. Do you know why? Because Ti critic picked up on the logical error once it's been shown to them. That's also probably what happened when Jesus (INFJ) told the temple guard (a very likely ISTJ profession) who hit him "If I told something wrong then tell me what it was and if I hadn't told anything wrong then why did you hit me?" and didn't face any further reprecussions from that guard because it sank in! When I heard that passage as a kid it struck me as odd because it was such a logical response and religion always seemed illogical to me (heh, well look at me now but that's irrelevant for the discussion so I'll stop here). Anyway that's a very good example of how Ti child interacts with Te parent via Ti critic. Seeing such behaviour makes you hopeful about the Te user because even if there's something wrong down the line if they will listen to the logic and it can be worked out then it's all good.


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## WickerDeer

intranst said:


> @ciel sos infel I can follow logic just fine, I just don’t apply it all day. If Te is just about status than Fe is just about popularity, but we all know there’s more to it than that. You say ENTJs are gold diggers and then follow it by saying it’s an Ne-Si trait. The four sides of the mind thing undermines a person’s core functioning, if something is unconscious it’s not going to be actively switched on to suit a situation at will. Fi types, if healthy, care about hashing out rifts in a relationship in the emotional realm because that is what is believed will keep the psychological closeness with their partner. INFJs, INTPs, etc will not likely be interested in discussing conflicts that have negatively impacted emotions because as far as Fe is concerned, once the emotion is no longer showing itself in real time, it is no longer relevant. This goes against the constructing of an emotional framework (Fi) and forming an identify around it. Mixing judging functions by definition will cause issues that the other party overlooks, not to mention that they will be taking in information that the other party sees as irrelevant and will even be discouraged by the opposing motivation if recognized.


Communication is really important to me in relationships but it requires honesty and it requires a willingness to explain, to discover, and to understand.

I'm not sure if it's related to type, but I think Ni doms like INTJ sometimes dislike explaining more than necessary, which to me seems insufficient to talk about relationship issues. INFJ are probably similar.

I think Te doms like ENTJ tend to be more direct communicators though, so I wonder if this is better for a Fi dom. 

I can read between the lines, but I resent it over time and it's a waste of energy for me because I'd rather be talking about something more fulfilling and interesting than being expected to follow social etiquette and read cues for no good reason. I don't even like groups and I'm not going to go to etiquette school for fun.

Fe types seem to expect it of you and the INTJ I knew also got annoyed when I expected him to be direct, and actually started setting up frameworks where we avoided certain topics, which makes me feel dismissed and unheard, and tbh it's impossible to love someone in an individual way if you can't understand them as an individual. 

In some way it seemed loving as a last ditch effort to preserve the relationship, but in other ways it reminds me of my mom who isn't willing to work on communication. Perhaps most people aren't. Or perhaps communication is just impossible with most people. Or perhaps my expectations are too high. Either way, if people aren't willing to have difficult conversations the right way (in a way that is considerate of the other person's feelings and health and happiness) then it's not going to work.

If people can't bother to even be direct or to say things explicitly in private then that's also not worth it. Idk if Ni doms are like this, always.

I have no problem starting romantic relationships with people who are likely to be compatible and who I am interested in. Obviously I'm not going to force myself on people though--they actually have to want that and know what they want. ENTJs also seem to at least act like they know what they want much better than INTJs do, and who knows about INFJs, so that's another positive for ENTJs imo.

Because if you don't know what you want, how can you figure out if you are both compatible. I'm also not going to try to "catch" people--if they aren't interested that is fine. I support them in their development elsewhere. That is what friends do.


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## WickerDeer

Also sorry @intranst

I think I'm getting a little passive aggressive. I'm annoyed by being misrepresented and misunderstood in this discussion, if I am an INFP.

I believe in emotional intimacy and communication is really important to me. And I have absolutely no trouble whatsoever with turning a friendship or whatever into a romantic relationship IF it's something both people want to do and they actually both know what they want to do.

It's rare to find honest, direct communication which is one reason why I do tend to like NTJ and also NTP but I am not sure about Ni doms as they seem to shy away from over-explaining things, probably due to Ni seeing the world very differently.

But yeah, conflict avoidance and direct communication are really important to me, even though I feel the conditions need to be set for it...meaning that there needs to be trust developed, so that people can feel free to open up to the level of communication required to solve or disclose personal problems and very vulnerable topics that require a lot of trust and intimacy, and mutual understanding.

Intimacy is required and I feel intimate when I can talk about anything with someone, not when I'm expected to read cues and take hints. So I agree with the INFJ in this thread at least that INFJ and INFP are not a good match, though not sure about the INTP thing. I like INTP just fine, but I'm not sure about matching up with most of their life goals. I kind of feel like we'd just start working on separate things and do everything separately and not really sure what we'd get out of it, but then everyone's different.


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## intranst

@WickerDeer You have no need to apologize, it just looks like you and OP were talking past each other on a few posts. I agree with what you said just now about Ni doms potential to create paths for themselves that avoid conflicts, point for ENTJ in that regard, at least in theory.

@ciel sos infel You pose an interesting argument and I’ll keep a lookout to see the practicality of your theory.


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## WickerDeer

intranst said:


> @WickerDeer You have no need to apologize, it just looks like you and OP were talking past each other on a few posts. I agree with what you said just now about Ni doms potential to create paths for themselves that avoid conflicts, point for ENTJ in that regard, at least in theory.
> 
> @ciel sos infel You pose an interesting argument and I’ll keep a lookout to see the practicality of your theory.


Thank you.

I also think maybe some Ni doms can get stuck in predictions, and they can avoid trying things in reality because they think they know what will happen or what other people think or will do.

And that can make it so that their view of reality isn't as accurate as it could be, because empirical evidence is important for logical deductions.

I also suspect Ni doms would be more likely to "test" out other people in artificial ways--presenting scenarios and then waiting to see the reaction they predict.

While I think that might show something, if you don't really look at and understand why or what is influencing the person's reaction, you are likely going to attribute it to something off. This doesn't really create intimacy, and it's sort of objectifying to people.

If OP or any other Ni dom did that to an INFP many times, over time, they would likely get a very skewed set of data that was fraught with the interference of Fi detecting the inconsistencies and that would affect the Fi dom's behavior. Fi types pay a lot of attention to others, even if they are seen as self absorbed, and presenting some false self in an effort to test their reactions will probably also just provide false data.

But if you go into an interaction with the intention of showing how someone's a gold digger, and then you provoke that reaction in them, and then you insist you were right about them--well, it's no foundation for any meaningful or intimate relationship between two equals. And the data you collect from that will be skewed by your own artificial meddling and obfuscating.

I'm not sure if Ni types test people in this way--I know they like to observe. Personally, I think the best way to understand people is to listen to them, not present them with artificial tests.

That's one thing I'm not sure if I can get along with J types so much. But I wonder if Ni types that are less emotionally secure might do this more as a way of avoiding actually engaging in the situation with Se...

It's just something I've been thinking about, but I don't really know if it's on topic or related to MBTI.

I hung out with a guy IRL not so long ago--he was an artist. I kept getting this feeling from him that as much as we got along, I felt sort of like he was more focused on BS than intimacy, and I wondered if he could be an INFJ. Not that it's an INFJ thing, but I think Jung talked about Ni as possibly being prophet like but also being crank-like.

Or maybe he was a T type. He was nice enough but I didn't want to hang out with him more because I didn't sense he really wanted to connect on a deeper level or maybe we didn't match with our values or interests. And I don't really see the point of being around people I'm not giving some enjoyment to and vice versa.

I mostly have experience with Sensors and Feelers though, in preschool--I think--so I really don't know how to identify Thinkers very well and haven't interacted with them a lot. And probably not INFJs either.


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## intranst

Makes sense to me, Se is inferior so it’ll likely be avoided at times. And yeah, any “tests” show a disregard for genuine connection, which I also view as negative in any relationship. I think what INTJ-ENFP, etc has going for it is that the ENFP’s Fi reaction to stimuli can be tracked by INTJ Fi fairy well, while Se also not being “trickster” (blindspot as I’ve referred to it) in ENFPs so the INTJ can use that as useful data too. INFPs are harder gauge with blindspot Se but also have a harder time gauging others so they need the direct communication whether they like to admit it or not. Ni in second position is being fed personal motive information by the inferior despite it being subconscious for the user, which is a decent argument for how INFP-ENTJ can also work in relation to INTJ-ENFP (keeping the theory consistent) because the INFP can track the consistency of secondary Ni when fed by Fi.


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## WickerDeer

intranst said:


> Makes sense to me, Se is inferior so it’ll likely be avoided at times. And yeah, any “tests” show a disregard for genuine connection, which I also view as negative in any relationship. I think what INTJ-ENFP, etc has going for it is that the ENFP’s Fi reaction to stimuli can be tracked by INTJ Fi fairy well, while Se also not being “trickster” (blindspot as I’ve referred to it) in ENFPs so the INTJ can use that as useful data too. INFPs are harder gauge with blindspot Se but also have a harder time gauging others so they need the direct communication whether they like to admit it or not. Ni in second position is being fed personal motive information by the inferior despite it being subconscious for the user, which is a decent argument for how INFP-ENTJ can also work in relation to INTJ-ENFP (keeping the theory consistent) because the INFP can track the consistency of secondary Ni when fed by Fi.


I don't know why, but I tend to see INTJs as dripping feeling. Like some people say it's awkward or they are robotic, but to me their feelings are usually very easy to read--at least in writing.

So I thought child Fi was interesting like that. I wonder if my Si is as obvious to dom/aux Si types.

But I also think my mom is an STJ so it could be I learned to read her emotions even when she's not outwardly expressing them.

I like INTPs but my INFP male friend once said his ENTJ gf at the time helped him light a fire under his butt, and I really think that'd be more helpful to me as a person than spending time with another introverted rational type who might have a lot of the same bad habits I do.

I really like INTP but I'm just not sure either of us can motivate each other--I know I am stubborn and I think INTP probably can be as well. For me, having an extroverted partner has helped me to actually have a social life, which I would normally neglect, and they also help remind me the sun rises and the wind blows outside, and there's lots of other things to life than tunnel vision focusing.

I'm just kind of rambling still--I don't know how I can check the veracity of Ni with my Fi. I like to listen to Ni doms sometimes because I find their ideas interesting and I also like talking in metaphors which I think Ni doms can appreciate sometimes, and create their own really interesting metaphors and inner worlds. Though as I said, a lot of INTJ women I find I have positive feelings for, because I feel like I immediately understand their feelings or Fi. Sometimes it might be a little more playful like a child and I have an instinct to protect it. And I think I've heard some ENTJ say they have the instinct to protect INFP too.

(I'm just kind of rambling at this point--I have a lot of feelings and speculations and this whole discussion has been kind of awkward, but it's nice to have the opportunity to express some of them indirectly as it is)


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## WickerDeer

Also @intranst thank you for being so patient and searching for/offering insight, as well as creating a comfortable environment to discuss stuff like this.

I am a little emotional, which I think happens sometimes when people in typology communities have had negative experiences or heartache, even though OP mentioned his with ENFP and maybe wants to leave it out of the discussion, I do think it can make discussions like this more volatile and I appreciate your influencing it to be productive.


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## intranst

@WickerDeer Of course! I appreciate that. My goal is to see if MBTI type is really that relevant in close relationships so I try to keep it civil and not be overly influenced by my own Fi biases, though I’m by no means judging anyone for expressing their own personal anecdotes. When I first got into cognitive functions it kind of blew my mind that people were processing information differently than me and kind of shook me out of thinking “wow I really suck at this” or when it comes to my own strengths, judging others and being like “wow they really suck at this” lol

I agree that I_TJs can be super emotional and I think INTJs in particular have strong cognitive empathy. I_TJs might even need more emotional soothing than I_FPs are always ready to give, which gives some credence to @ciel sos infel theory but I think that gets solved by an E_FP’s readiness to use Fi as means of evaluation.

I didn’t initially realize it or I would’ve said something, but I think @ciel sos infel “accused” you of potentially being drunk when you posted but he misunderstood you because what you said was that you may have been inebriated when you took the MBTI test, as in, aren’t right now. And he only assumed you were ENFP since he thought there was a strong miscommunication and equated that to ENFP having trickster/blindspot Ti while INFJs have the same for Te.


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## WickerDeer

edit: okay I was drunk when I wrote this but not before. ugh


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## WickerDeer

My goal is to meet, support, and be with my true love.

I don't care much what else people are trying to do in this thread. To be completely honest, I doubt I'd even be posting here if I had met my true love, as we'd probably be doing something else.

I come back here out of pain and sadness, and disillusionment, and trying to find out why.

I don't think of this place as some logically sterile place, and I really do not care what most people think of me at all. I have better things to do, and I'd hope you all did too. And if not, that's fine--but it's not the life I'd choose.


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## Negotiator

ciel sos infel said:


> I don't doubt that, but I'm advising against romantic relations with your mentor type (INFP is that for you because they will show you how to Fi hero so your weakling can follow). You are critical of their determination and so are they (Ne critic doubling with Ni critic). Don't you have trust issues? They are only going to get worse in that relationship because that follows from the negative function alignment.
> Didn't you say that your worst relationships were with ESTJs or something? Consider that once INFP's Te weakling observes your Te hero in action long enough they will try to act like it to gain the outside energy it needs to feed itself. You will compete for sources of Te sustaining energy with an INFP. Not immediately but eventually you will. Try to review this information when you feel really comfortable so that you can try to access your INTP state.


My experience with one of my INFP friends is that we get along very well, but there is no romantic attraction. We have the same hobbies and interests, yet a... _challenge_ is lacking. It is definitely an older brother type vibe.

Interesting what you say about Te weakling. I haven't witnessed this, but as you say it'd come with time. I can only imagine a Don Draper type situation, where Draper's employee told the client to wash his mouth with soap but he just lacked the respect and gravitas to pull that off. 😆

As for the inner INTP state, can you expand on that?


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## intranst

Negotiator said:


> My experience with one of my INFP friends is that we get along very well, but there is no romantic attraction. We have the same hobbies and interests, yet a... _challenge_ is lacking. It is definitely an older brother type vibe.
> 
> Interesting what you say about Te weakling. I haven't witnessed this, but as you say it'd come with time. I can only imagine a Don Draper type situation, where Draper's employee told the client to wash his mouth with soap but he just lacked the respect and gravitas to pull that off. 😆
> 
> As for the inner INTP state, can you expand on that?


Are you more about mental challenges or physical? I like debate but idk about rock climbing, for instance. And do you have experience with a variety of ENFJs to comment on by chance?


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## Negotiator

intranst said:


> Are you more about mental challenges or physical? I like debate but idk about rock climbing, for instance. And do you have experience with a variety of ENFJs to comment on by chance?


Mental challenges: witty banter and a good discussion about war or economics. I'm not a gym rat, so I'd struggle with physical challenge, I'm more someone who needs constant positive encouragement during yoga. And I prefer to do this alone.

As for ENFJs, yes I mentioned a couple of stories. One was my (female) boss who tolerated stuff I didn't, and our similarities yet differences were confusing. Another was a male I was about to date. Interesting character, not 100% perfect for me probably, but if we'd dated we would have either clicked or hated each other. No inbetween 😂


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## intranst

Negotiator said:


> Mental challenges: witty banter and a good discussion about war or economics. I'm not a gym rat, so I'd struggle with physical challenge, I'm more someone who needs constant positive encouragement during yoga. And I prefer to do this alone.
> 
> As for ENFJs, yes I mentioned a couple of stories. One was my (female) boss who tolerated stuff I didn't, and our similarities yet differences were confusing. Another was a male I was about to date. Interesting character, not 100% perfect for me probably, but if we'd dated we would have either clicked or hated each other. No inbetween 😂


Haha fair enough, thanks for the feedback, was just wondering if there was more about ENFJs that you could comment on. War and economics, are those typical ENTJ interests? I'm thinking more like philosophy or religion.. but definitely witty banter, I do have a sassy side. I also catch myself making more Te oriented jokes as I've gotten older, like sarcastically making comments on things that are in fact not practical but that sound like I know what I'm talking about, which again leads me to think a Te user is a better match but that type of humor might be up INTP's alley too.

What type is your partner if you don't mind me asking? No need to answer if you don't feel comfortable doing so.


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## ciel sos infel

intranst said:


> @ciel sos infel You pose an interesting argument and I’ll keep a lookout to see the practicality of your theory.


A mature Te response. I think you've been an ESTJ academic for most of our exchange if you're wondering about the 4 sides of mind theory being valid or not.
I wonder if I could reach the logic of your ISTP super ego if I were to try explaining my point with some sort of machine analogy. I've no idea though if that would work.
Now keep the maturity and don't fall back into Si comfort zone like WickerDeer has, deliberating so eloquently on why am I doing what I'm doing instead of understanding that it has nothing to do with what I have presented in this thread.
It might be tempting to fall back into the hive mind, seeing all the Te users around you agree with all the Te users around you (most of them in utter ignorance of the logic presented so far because they cannot verify it, only believe or disbelieve it until they look at real life data) never risking being seen as stupid but it leads nowhere. It's nothing but a giant circlejerk of circular reasoning of "renowned academic A said renowned academic B is right and renowned academic B said renowned academic C is right and renowned academic C said that renowned academic A is right so they are all in the right, I mean this many renowned academics couldn't be wrong, right?". Please be brave and don't let the comfort sway you when it comes to the pursuit of truth!
Tesla (INTJ) was right that physics has deteriorated into theoretical musings devoid of experimentation but so was Feynman (ENTP) when he left some sort of scientific association (I can't remember what it was exactly) saying that he sees no point in belonging to an organization which only purpose is to decide who to let in. Both of them are right. Both extremities of Te and Ti pull us away from the truth - this is one of the reasons why a pair of people that live together should have both accessible by default in order not to be blind!
Yes, I can pick up on amazing new concepts via my ENFP anima's Te child if I'm devoid of things that can trigger my Ne nemesis. Yes I can drive people into the mud with my ESTP's Te critic if I think they deserve it. Yes I can focus on the raw facts in detached manner via my super ego, judge jury and executioner ISTJ but there are many Te things I can't do well at all. A single person is incomplete in their ability to interact with the world and that is judging function domain. And you as an INFP need the logic of an INTP because there is a difference between knowing a concept and the ability to understand it. I have understood the basic principle behind cognitive function interactions, that's how I was able to respond to your every point - not because I've learned those responses somewhere else.


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## ciel sos infel

intranst said:


> And yeah, any “tests” show a disregard for genuine connection, which I also view as negative in any relationship.


Ne-Si pattern of thinking resulting from fearful or critical Ni, exactly as I was saying it does. Having Ni-Se if I don't get loyalty checked I'll feel unloved - she doesn't care about me anymore she doesn't love me in this fearful, possesive manner that I need. This is why I'm trying so hard to get you to realize that Ne-Si needs equal Ne-Si and not Ni-Se because otherwise Ne-Si user will whine about their partner being demanding, needy, possesive or whatever guilt tripping it can come up with.
FUCK



intranst said:


> I think what INTJ-ENFP, etc has going for it is that the ENFP’s Fi reaction to stimuli can be tracked by INTJ Fi fairy well, while Se also not being “trickster” (blindspot as I’ve referred to it) in ENFPs so the INTJ can use that as useful data too. INFPs are harder gauge with blindspot Se but also have a harder time gauging others so they need the direct communication whether they like to admit it or not. Ni in second position is being fed personal motive information by the inferior despite it being subconscious for the user, which is a decent argument for how INFP-ENTJ can also work in relation to INTJ-ENFP (keeping the theory consistent) because the INFP can track the consistency of secondary Ni when fed by Fi.


Ne nemesis doubles with Ni nemesis forcing INTJ into paranoia about their closest person on this goddamn earth. It's a horrifying experience. I've lived through it and I'll never be so naive again. It's the same like with your Fe nemesis so fearful of Fe users. You'll advise against INFP dating an ENFJ (because Fe bad, cannot trust Fe) but you'll advise INTJs to date ENFP which causes the same issue?
Fi is an introverted function. The stimuli are internal, self produced. Fi child (fairy) won't track anything well because it's the extroverted function that reacts to the outside world (other people's feelings and motivations) and for an INTJ its Fe trickster, making the INTJ trust what they shouldn't trust, sending out and reading confusing messages when it comes to F matters. Fi child will never be known as it needs to be known by an Fi parent because in the end Fi doesn't care about the external. Fi is sympathizing and that means is putting yourself in other person's situation and simulating how you would respond - not feeling it directly yourself as it really is.
Se is about physical stimuli so all the gauging it can do when it comes to others judging the physical state of others (like whether they are hot or not). Se is also the mastery of physical world - when an INFP breaks 5th plate this month it's because of Se trickster for example. Se can figure out how to use objects to act as tools for what they want to do (like ISFP painting with some random shit that isn't brushlike at all) while Si has to learn specific use for each specific item.
WHAT USEFUL DATA DOES THAT PROVIDE FOR THE INTJ IN ENFP-INTJ RELATIONSHIP (ESPECIALLY SINCE IN ENFP IT'S PRACTICALLY NON EXISTENT, THAT'S WHY THEY LOOK AS IF THEY JUST ROBBED A HOMELESS SHELTER AND PROUDLY PARADE WITH THE SPOILS)!?
Who taught you this nonsense?


----------



## ciel sos infel

intranst said:


> I agree that I_TJs can be super emotional and I think INTJs in particular have strong cognitive empathy.


Words, what do they even mean anymore, right? INTJ can be super emotional, that is absolutely correct, just as an INFJ can be super logical but empathy is something that they don't have turned on by default at all (switching into wholesome anima/us ENTP around people requires a position of emotional comfort and that happens when Ne nemesis is satisfied and it can only be satisfied by Ni hero which you rarely come across unless you specifically fish for it). There might be some specific kind of empathy via Fe parent in ISFJ super ego form but that's only when they unlock it and I have no idea how it works exactly since my ISTJ Te game seems to only be about caring about the raw facts and dismissing feelings. I don't suddenly become capable of filing tax reports with an unparalleled aptitude but I'm not certain about how super ego works exactly yet, still observing myself on that.



intranst said:


> I_TJs might even need more emotional soothing than I_FPs are always ready to give, which gives some credence to @ciel sos infel theory but I think that gets solved by an E_FP’s readiness to use Fi as means of evaluation.


Do you know how ExFP react to other people's Fi? Via Fe critic. Nagging, guilt tripping Fe critic, wow, that's totally something that's going to soothe the delicate equipement that is IxTJ's Fi child. Do you enjoy being a target of Se critic of an ESTJ? Because that's roughly the same shit.
Do you know what role Fe critic is perfectly suited for? Seal clubbing ExTP's Fi trickster who other wise morally justifies actions that should not be justified. Same with Te critic and Ti trickster.




intranst said:


> I didn’t initially realize it or I would’ve said something, but I think @ciel sos infel “accused” you of potentially being drunk when you posted but he misunderstood you because what you said was that you may have been inebriated when you took the MBTI test, as in, aren’t right now.


Whaa...



intranst said:


> And he only assumed you were ENFP since he thought there was a strong miscommunication and equated that to ENFP having trickster/blindspot Ti while INFJs have the same for Te.


Yes. That's what I meant and I've explained it in one of the posts in exchange between me and her already (I can find it if it's important for some reason).


----------



## ciel sos infel

Negotiator said:


> My experience with one of my INFP friends is that we get along very well, but there is no romantic attraction. We have the same hobbies and interests, yet a... _challenge_ is lacking. It is definitely an older brother type vibe.


Hmm... I think romantic attraction is seeing a part of your super ego (ESFJ) in the other person so it wouldn't be there. There is however a sexual attraction I would suspect or at least potential for it because Se is attracted to Si.



Negotiator said:


> As for the inner INTP state, can you expand on that?


Ever heard of the term 'dark history' in japanese media? Judging from my own experience during adolescence we're thrown into our anima(us)/inside-out form which people usually hate and bash and it ends up being a point of shame we don't show other people but it is also where a lot of our sexuality lies so we need to have a partner who will accept that part of us too (ENFJ, for example, will).
How to get there again? Well you're probably doing it on your own from time to time without realizing. My INTP friend, I lived with, spent hours upon hours playing grand strategy games (Europa Universalis, Hearts of Iron etc.) basically living in his dictator ENTJ inside-out form as a fantasy. Do you nerd out when you're alone? What do you do when you know no one will judge you for it? I don't need your answers to those questions, I'm just trying to focus your attention on that state of mind. As long as your Ti nemesis feels safe you should be able to jump into your anima but since I'm not sure how do you satisfy an introverted nemesis I'll leave you with this video that I haven't watched but I watched several other videos of the author about cognitive transitions and cognitive attitudes of each position in function stack and the dude is pretty solid. I've learned the basics from him some time ago and when I started noticing inconsistencies in what he's saying I went on my own deducing what each function does through introspection. Anyway here it is:




But be aware that he hasn't caught up to the fact, that the negative function stack is paramount when deciding who should be with who romantically so he's still at ENTJ should be with INTP tier which doesn't work for the analogous reasons why INFJ doesn't work with ENFP.


----------



## Negotiator

intranst said:


> Haha fair enough, thanks for the feedback, was just wondering if there was more about ENFJs that you could comment on. War and economics, are those typical ENTJ interests? I'm thinking more like philosophy or religion.. but definitely witty banter, I do have a sassy side. I also catch myself making more Te oriented jokes as I've gotten older, like sarcastically making comments on things that are in fact not practical but that sound like I know what I'm talking about, which again leads me to think a Te user is a better match but that type of humor might be up INTP's alley too.
> 
> What type is your partner if you don't mind me asking? No need to answer if you don't feel comfortable doing so.


Yeah, I kinda wish I had more data on ENFJ-ENTJ compatibility from my experience, because the almost-date with that one guy just wasn't enough to be able to say it would've been great or not.

War and economics has mainly to do with my interests over the past 15 years and my work. I'm in finance, so I'm a little bit obsessed with understanding how the markets operate, and what is interesting especially is the fact that _sentiment_ does not necessarily need to follow any kind of 'logic'. I mean, I could ask different experts why the price went up or down and they'll give different reasons, based on how they think people _feel_ about the thing. 

As for philosophy and religion, I'm interested in them in a bit more of a practical manner. So for example, I'll greatly enjoy theorizing about the meaning of XYZ and why this is this way and not that way, but if you tell me to read Foucault or something, I'll pass. Reason being I just want to form my own ideas as much as I can. Religion is a tough one for me, I _want_ to believe, but deep down I don't. So I mostly read the Bible for comfort, to gain insights into wisdom, etc.

A sassy side, you say? Yay. What kind of jokes would you make when you say "Te-oriented jokes"? I'm usually outraged by stuff so I'll be mocking things, and yes, that type of humor is up INTP's alley because my bf is an INTP. I would say that my jokes would be more popular at a party, whereas his jokes are just more cleverly layered and timed so well.

What type are you / are you into if you don't mind sharing? (You might have said it before in this thread, but there's quite a bit of stuff going on here so I can't 100% remember.)


----------



## thisisme

ciel sos infel said:


> Any particular reason why not?
> My ex ENFP girlfriend adored the character of Jack Sparrow, that's an ENTP from what I can tell.
> Elsewhere I've read that ENFP's greatest fear is missing out on things to experience (ESTP super ego) and ENTPs are very interesting and open people.


I adore entp but feel very comfortable brother/ sister vibe like i don't think sparks would fly for either of us.


----------



## ciel sos infel

Negotiator said:


> Yeah, I kinda wish I had more data on ENFJ-ENTJ compatibility from my experience, because the almost-date with that one guy just wasn't enough to be able to say it would've been great or not.


Not as rare in population as INTJ and INFJs but close second or third, depending on the country I guess, so that's one of the reasons, that and expectations for ENxJ to be a 'dom' and needing a 'sub' I guess. I haven't seen much at all regarding relationships between T-F variants, I found couple bot voiced videos for INTJ-INFJ (not very dependable but the comments sounded promising to it prompted me to dig further into it) and some 'yeah maybe' opinion on a site detailing every possible combination for an INFJ. Everyone will urge you to date either an INTP or INFP but, surprise surprise, no one ever talks about how the negative functions influence each other and that's a deal breaker in the long run.



Negotiator said:


> Religion is a tough one for me, I _want_ to believe, but deep down I don't. So I mostly read the Bible for comfort, to gain insights into wisdom, etc.


Old Testament wisdom books are pretty neat. Funnily enough when I listened to one INTJ woman online talking about some moral issues I got a very, very similar vibe (and for me it was one of several confirmations that God the Father of the Bible is an INTJ). In a reply to intranst I've mentioned that Bible is surprisingly accurate in terms of cognitive functions. Terrifyingly accurate I might even say. For example I could never understand why Jesus told his disciples to pray "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done" like wtf if God wants to do what he wants then who's gonna stop him? Why should anyone ask for it? However that's exactly how you'd placate Ne nemesis! Why God has a council in heaven made up of Bene ha Elohim (translated Sons of God - in common understanding angels) like the one described at the beginning of the Book of Job? Because Te parent wants to hear what others think and tends to make it's judgement as an amalgamation of what everybody's saying! Why INFJ Jesus said that "No one comes to the Father except through me" and "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven."? Because God the Father being INTJ has a Fe trickster and thus, wisely, relegated the judgement of who to trust on his son! Why Father isn't the one who rules in the New Jerusalem, choosing to become grossly incandescent instead, but it's Jesus that becomes the king? Never got that one before but it's because the aspirational form of an INTJ, through which they aspire to extrovert themselves publicly, is ESFP entertainer while for INFJ it's ESTP leader! Why loyalty checking Abraham and then analogously displaying God's dedication in sacrificing his son for the world? Ni hero Se weakling.
I don't know what god Jung was speaking about (since he was steeped in occult too from what I've seen) but I've heard one interview in which he claimed that he doesn't believe in god, he knows. Well, Te trickster teaches an INFJ from early years not to believe anything or anyone so I understand what he's saying very well and at the same time now I too think I know, having figured out cognitive functions myself to a degree that I have.
But beware of organized religion. That's not the same as having a personal relationship with God.



Negotiator said:


> my bf is an INTP


Oof.
That's a somewhat similar situation to my parents' long lived marriage (ESTJ and ISTP). Similar because T doms and F inferiors. They neglected F matters in upbringing of their children and keep sweeping emotional problems between themselves under a rug if their nigh only common activity is sitting before a TV (because they're too tired, because they take too many responsibilities on themselves to escape from the problems that piled up between them) I'm suspecting that rug won't take much more. I know for sure that my ISTP father blocks my ESTJ's mother ISTP form because he knows via blinded Ti hero that she can't do ISTP things as good as he can and shames her for trying (and failing yes but she'd get better if she had the chance). Sharing personalities makes their development very difficult (because 2 of the same aren't needed so the better wins) and the neglected personalities will demand their time in life, sooner or later, one way or another.
Consider reading "Edit 3" paragraph I added to the OP, I think I explained the disconnect between Ne-Si and Ni-Se better there than in this thread.


----------



## Red Panda

ciel sos infel said:


> If Te is input-output and Ti is processing then Ne is also input-output and, especially Ne hero has to do with mastery over the will of others, instead of being dependent on it, since it's an optimistic function (hero, child). Ne-Fe has a knack for inserting motivations into other people in order to realize Ti parent's vision. ENTPs have no problem having others act out their plans (Fi trickster justifying what should not be justifiable), they are natural manipulators and negotiators. Some just sit behind the scenes and make people do pretty much whatever they think they ought to do because they know what people want so all they have to do is get a stick for that carrot.
> Your system is completely detached from reality if you cannot see ENTP behaviour in him.
> I don't know what 4 sides of mind thing has to do with him being or not being ENTP either.
> Don't expect much more patience for your Ti trickster out of me.


E changes the self to fit the object, I changes the object to fit the self.
TE is being self- adaptable to external impersonal facts in order to measure, create conclusions and frameworks
TI is adapting the world to the self in order to fit it to its own framework of conclusions
NE is self-adaptable to novel information, being able to see subtle connections and apply them to different contexts via the principles that connect them
and so on.
FE adapts the self to the object based on personal criteria/gut feelings.
The extravert psyche (especially of the N dom being a perceiver and thus less concerned with conclusions) has little to no will to control what others do in a typical situation, because they place the object above the subject. We want to observe the object as intact as possible. The introvert having a defensive attitude against the external has a lot to benefit from controlling the environment to match their expectations. What you're describing is an introverted attitude primarily, hence no ENTP.

Of course CSJ will be an ENTP if you use the definitions he's created to justify his typing...


----------



## ciel sos infel

Red Panda said:


> Well, in short yes - being "deeply" philosophical and selfless have been strong themes throughout my life and my adolescence was certainly characterized by that. I was very focused on figuring out big pictures, checking inconsistencies, questioning myself pretty hard and eventually ended up having very bad social anxiety out of fear of hurting others. I did a lot of therapy fixed some problems in family and self etc, gained a lot of self awareness and introspection is a huge theme in my life. My last therapist was surprised by how introspective I am for my age at the time and how maturely I viewed relationships (was early-mid 20s). But that's pretty textbook normal functioning for an ENFP as we're NE-FE.


Ne-Fi you mean? I'm starting to feel a conversation breaking dissonance. Are we talking cognitive functions still?



Red Panda said:


> Yea I don't believe in the metaphysical - I see functions as something completely tied to our biology. By habits I meant cognitive habits - how we learn and view the world and process information, we gain psychological benefit by doing what's ego-syntonic as they say, hence we reinforce these ways of functioning over their opposites. But anyways I don't see us agreeing in any of that really.


Still too vast a spread between one human life and another to make up only 16 types.
Another counter point I can propose is that I was clingy even before I started to walk while my ESTP brother was restless to a point my mom had problems breastfeeding him (unless I misremember something, that's possible but thing is he was restless from a very early age).
Either way how cognitive functions are formed and when does not exactly matter to how they work in practice so it's not my problem for now.


----------



## DOGSOUP

Red Panda said:


> The introvert having a defensive attitude against the external has a lot to benefit from controlling the environment to match their expectations.


As evidenced by this whole thread.


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## Red Panda

ciel sos infel said:


> Ne-Fi you mean? I'm starting to feel a conversation breaking dissonance. Are we talking cognitive functions still?
> 
> 
> Still too vast a spread between one human life and another to make up only 16 types.
> Another counter point I can propose is that I was clingy even before I started to walk while my ESTP brother was restless to a point my mom had problems breastfeeding him (unless I misremember something, that's possible but thing is he was restless from a very early age).
> Either way how cognitive functions are formed and when does not exactly matter to how they work in practice so it's not my problem for now.


No I'm referring to how originally, an Extravert is an Extravert in both judgment and perception because Extraversion is a trait that describes a certain preference for how we adapt to the world, so it's a very important psychological trait. I don't think 16 types are an accurate representation of the real range which is why I returned to a more Jungian approach that treats the functional and attitudinal axes more dynamically, despite the 8 main types, which have been converted wrongly to 8 functions. 
I'm not sure what you're countering here, if you mean that I don't think there are differences seen as early as infancy then no I didn't mean that. I think our main preferences have a strong genetic base but our weaker ones may be more up to being changed or even decided in childhood through nurture. Like, I struggled quite a bit between F and T which is not the case for others of my type. I know ENTPs who are more similar to me than some ENFPs.


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## ciel sos infel

Red Panda said:


> E changes the self to fit the object, I changes the object to fit the self.
> TE is being self- adaptable to external impersonal facts in order to measure, create conclusions and frameworks
> TI is adapting the world to the self in order to fit it to its own framework of conclusions
> NE is self-adaptable to novel information, being able to see subtle connections and apply them to different contexts via the principles that connect them
> and so on.
> FE adapts the self to the object based on personal criteria/gut feelings.


To a degree but that very much depends on where the cognitive function sits. Te people are not only good at understanding what other people are saying but also at relaying things to others - like I've said input-output. It also has to do with believing things because Te cannot verify logical consistency it can only believe or disbelieve. In ENFPs Te child can be used to sell others on some idea, they can make unwary person believe anything. They make great used car salesmen for example.
Another example Te hero is all about control, micromanaging others etc (ENTJ and ESTJs are known for that), it doesn't fit itself around the object much at all, especially in ENTJ that, critical of other's will, exert theirs via Te hero authority. Or an Fe hero ENFJ preacher moving people to act the way he wants. Extroverted function isn't always on the receiving end. It's in pessimistic spots (parent, weakling) that it tends to be more passive.
Your definitions don't explain much at all from a practical standpoint. They are too vague and lack other aspect that the functions are responsible for (Te's need for external recognition while Ti knows if it's good enough or not on it's own, for example).




Red Panda said:


> The extravert psyche (especially of the N dom being a perceiver and thus less concerned with conclusions) has little to no will to control what others do in a typical situation, because they place the object above the subject. We want to observe the object as intact as possible. The introvert having a defensive attitude against the external has a lot to benefit from controlling the environment to match their expectations. What you're describing is an introverted attitude primarily, hence no ENTP.
> 
> Of course CSJ will be an ENTP if you use the definitions he's created to justify his typing...


I'm looking at the functions directly and building explanations grounds up, while you are applying some vague overarching concepts (like being a "perceiver") detached from the mechanics and principles of how cognitive functions work and interact. They sound nice but are void of meaning. Another low Te user not understanding what they are talking about but still trying to sound smart.
Everyone has benefits from controlling the external! ENFP for example can provide for themselves a situation where they can satisfy their material insecurities (Si weakling) if they make people believe that this concoction they are selling (which is just not tap water at all, nuh uh) will cure cancer.
Patience running low.


----------



## ciel sos infel

Red Panda said:


> No I'm referring to how originally, an Extravert is an Extravert in both judgment and perception because Extraversion is a trait that describes a certain preference for how we adapt to the world, so it's a very important psychological trait.


Wow you've said absolutely nothing in this sentence. That's a talent.



Red Panda said:


> I don't think 16 types are an accurate representation of the real range which is why I returned to a more Jungian approach that treats the functional and attitudinal axes more dynamically, despite the 8 main types, which have been converted wrongly to 8 functions.


Like I've said, INFJs miles away, different period and all but we come to very similar conclusions on certain matters and even if we don't always agree it's incomparably easy to at least understand why that other INFJ would think this or that way. 16 types 4 personalities in person 4 positive 4 negative functions by personality - from my own experience and introspection that works.



Red Panda said:


> I'm not sure what you're countering here, if you mean that I don't think there are differences seen as early as infancy then no I didn't mean that.


Scratch that, I misread what you wrote back there, my fault.


----------



## intranst

The nature vs nurture is an interesting argument. If type isn’t static it pretty much loses all scientific credibility, not that it has much to begin with. I see it as being naturally inherent to the individual, otherwise I wouldn’t really care about it since it would have low utility and be about as useful as astrology.


----------



## intranst

@ciel sos infel Do you have an opinion on enneagram?


----------



## Summer70

Ah, thank you everyone for feeding this thread. It's been my guilty pleasure for some days now.

It happens that I am with my 'recommended pairing'. Truth is: It's the stormiest relationship I ever had. Most relationship analysis here uses the C.S Joseph system, so I'll continue with this system in order to communicate fluidly and entertain the game. (Tangent: Thank you @Red Panda for your explanation on the Jungian system, it's been the most understandable one I've ever read here. And thanks @DOGSOUP, your overtly aggressive passive aggressiveness always cracks me up, I love it, please don't change.)

Basically, one's "shadow" in CSJ system (INFJ-ENFP, ESFJ-ISFP, ENTJ-INTP, ...) is called a "Nemesis". In casual words, CS Joseph and other MBTI theories advise people to date their sworn enemies. In fictional stories, a lot of rivalries or conflicts are based on this concept, which CSJ calls the Golden Pair. The nemesis gives all the punches the hero needs to wake and grow up. And if the other person's primitive unconscious is on fire? Gosh, you even have your worst demon/nightmare to fight. And you're right @ciel sos infel, when it happens, FUCK FUCK FUCK and FUCK IT. (Tangent: I'm sorry it didn't work out for you and that you ended up with a huge, unhealed scar in your heart.)

My depiction might not be the most romantic, but it's the closest Golden Pair depiction I have in mind.










_"They raise the bar higher and higher between them and limitations cease to be limitations. 
They're getting more powerful as they fight, they are maturing as they exchange blows." (from Hajime No Ippo, Season 1 final fight)_​

It happens that both me and my partner are masochistic like challenges, so we stuck, bought a house together and are raising a baby together, despite the uncountable, massive, fatal blows we inflicted to each other. It's my most painful, yet longest relationship. It's also my (/our) healthiest and happiest one. We'll still have the worst fights I'll ever have in my life (by, far.), and despite the fact we're probably each other's *worst match*, chances are that we'll ask each other in marriage soon. Let our fights be eternal. About the Golden Pair (or anything with unmatched functions, following MBTI 8th function system), the magic lies in the fact the other person is strong in the areas where you suck at, so both can be each other's kryptonite and guardian angel at the same time. There's also something enticing, in my point of view, in embracing your worst enemy, but I would understand that for other people, the perfect pairing would lie in a most peaceful coexistence. (Note: my most peaceful coexistence was with an ISFJ, which I could call my mirror soul. Only the I/E reversed. However, he couldn't protect me from myself, and neither could I protect him from himself.) Anyhow, I thank our common masochism values, motivation and hard work for making our relationships stick.

About the theory laid-out here, I've never been attracted to an ESTJ in my life, so that's already game over for me. Also, I wouldn't trade my partner for any "better theoretical match", because... I'm a close-minded ESFJ prick who values commitment and gives limited weight to theory. Anyway, I'm not here to debunk, I'm more here to ask a question that's been really itching me while scrolling this thread, and that’s actually the one and only reason I’m posting. (The above was more me trying to give inputs in order to... "return something.") Excuse my ESFJ brainlessness... there's something I really don't get.

*If people here (of any type) have the hots for INTJs (or any other type)...
... why not date one you like and see if it works? (Q_Q)*

(Sorry if the answer is too obvious for all of you, but I really don't get it.)


----------



## ciel sos infel

intranst said:


> @ciel sos infel Do you have an opinion on enneagram?


Just an opinion though, not a conviction.
I think I've been through several (3?) enneagram types throughout my life. When I was a wee lad I was super motivated and idealistic so I think that would've made me a 1w2 but eventually I crawled up from under that rock that is Te trickster (at least on some matters) and realized that this idealism I had has no place in real life. Then I was super into being a totally unique and weird person in high school (a dark page in my biography) and from what I understand that would make me a 4w5. Again a realization crept in as I was noticing that no one gives a damn about my individuality and people tolerate me when I'm like that at best. Unable to find meaning (I only see the meaningless through Fi critic, not the meaningful) I spend much time Ni-Ti looping to find at least something that makes sense (so 5w6 I think?).
So my initial analysis, if I can even call it that way, is that enneagram would attempt to describe what a person is currently focusing on with cognitive and motivation justifying tools they have at their disposal and that's liable to change.


----------



## ciel sos infel

Summer70 said:


> Ah, thank you everyone for feeding this thread. It's been my guilty pleasure for some days now.
> 
> It happens that I am with my 'recommended pairing'. Truth is: It's the stormiest relationship I ever had. Most relationship analysis here uses the C.S Joseph system, so I'll continue with this system in order to communicate fluidly and entertain the game. (Tangent: Thank you @Red Panda for your explanation on the Jungian system, it's been the most understandable one I've ever read here. And thanks @DOGSOUP, your overtly aggressive passive aggressiveness always cracks me up, I love it, please don't change.)
> 
> Basically, one's "shadow" in CSJ system (INFJ-ENFP, ESFJ-ISFP, ENTJ-INTP, ...) is called a "Nemesis". In casual words, CS Joseph and other MBTI theories advise people to date their sworn enemies. In fictional stories, a lot of rivalries or conflicts are based on this concept, which CSJ calls the Golden Pair. The nemesis gives all the punches the hero needs to wake and grow up. And if the other person's primitive unconscious is on fire? Gosh, you even have your worst demon/nightmare to fight. And you're right @ciel sos infel, when it happens, FUCK FUCK FUCK and FUCK IT. (Tangent: I'm sorry it didn't work out for you and that you ended up with a huge, unhealed scar in your heart.)
> 
> My depiction might not be the most romantic, but it's the closest Golden Pair depiction I have in mind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"They raise the bar higher and higher between them and limitations cease to be limitations.
> They're getting more powerful as they fight, they are maturing as they exchange blows." (from Hajime No Ippo, Season 1 final fight)_​
> 
> It happens that both me and my partner are masochistic like challenges, so we stuck, bought a house together and are raising a baby together, despite the uncountable, massive, fatal blows we inflicted to each other. It's my most painful, yet longest relationship. It's also my (/our) healthiest and happiest one. We'll still have the worst fights I'll ever have in my life (by, far.), and despite the fact we're probably each other's *worst match*, chances are that we'll ask each other in marriage soon. Let our fights be eternal. About the Golden Pair (or anything with unmatched functions, following MBTI 8th function system), the magic lies in the fact the other person is strong in the areas where you suck at, so both can be each other's kryptonite and guardian angel at the same time. There's also something enticing, in my point of view, in embracing your worst enemy, but I would understand that for other people, the perfect pairing would lie in a most peaceful coexistence. (Note: my most peaceful coexistence was with an ISFJ, which I could call my mirror soul. Only the I/E reversed. However, he couldn't protect me from myself, and neither could I protect him from himself.) Anyhow, I thank our common masochism values, motivation and hard work for making our relationships stick.
> 
> About the theory laid-out here, I've never been attracted to an ESTJ in my life, so that's already game over for me. Also, I wouldn't trade my partner for any "better theoretical match", because... I'm a close-minded ESFJ prick who values commitment and gives limited weight to theory.


I've heard about INTJ and INFJ pairs and they happen so there has to be strong attraction between them or else I don't think INFJ would believe it could work. It's not just theory, what I'm doing is only explaining what I've seen happen.

I already feel the pain that you're going to put yourself through because of your Ni trickster making you want the things that you don't actually want and it breaks my heart so much my eyes teared up as I'm writing this. You will suffer but instead of facing the here and now (Se) you'll reminiscence about how it used to be (Si) and fool yourself that it can be like that again. An ISFP will never allow you to take care of them emotionally to the extent your hero craves to because deep inside their soul they cannot trust you and your motivations since you cannot trust them yourself. You will never feel comforted and fulfilled and no matter how much Si sturdiness you have it will deplete your energy once you won't be able to feed yourself off of the environment. You will never find peace, security nor balance within that relationship. It will wear you and beat you down, season by season, year by year, as guilt that it is all your fault sips in and poisons your very soul because the ISFP cannot relate to you and sympathize with you properly to help you out when you need it the most. If you decide to have children they will grow up in the hell of your marriage, blown around by the bursts of emotional turmoil just as I grown crushed between sensitivity equivalents of a hammer (ISTP) and an anvil (ESTJ). When I called my ESTJ mother out on her Se critic nagging my ISTP father she just told me something that reminded me of your "because we're masochistic", she said "Oh it's just how we are, me and your dad". NO! It's not just how they are! Si critic is just defenseless against Se critic and will take everything in without a complaint! It's like holding a cat up by the skin on it's neck. Just because ISFP is critical of their own comfort, they own bodily needs etc DOESN'T MEAN THEY DON'T HAVE THEM. They just cannot justify satisfying those needs and another Se parent would solve that. I'm sometimes trying to care of my pops but he's just being obstinate and dismissive while if I were ISFP I would sympathize with him properly, with super strong internal motivation of Fi hero, enough confidence in my Se and childish Ni (that wants it's Fi whims fulfilled) to not care for his will and force him to rest, one way or another. And there is no actual growth between ESFJ and ISFP because:
1. The surface level pull is so strong you don't need to engage other personalities (anima gets thrown away)
2. ISFP weakling feeds on your weakling and doesn't have to grow in order to accommodate all that a hero can pump into it (training the weakling leads to aspirational/upside-down form), analogous with your Ti weakling - it doesn't aspire to become better in order to feed Te hero
3. ESFJ's Ni trickster keeps wanting the things it doesn't actually want since ISFP Ne trickster, instead of stopping it in it's tracks, listens to it but doesn't pick up properly that it's not what is actually wanted so both don't realize what's going wrong which would lead a person to stop trusting the trickster (that's the only way to mature in the 'use' of this function - just don't trust it at all)
4. Si critic doesn't fight back against Se critic at all and both remain hypocritical instead of becoming wise and selective in what they're criticizing


_‘Suppose I bring the sword against a land, and the people of that land choose a man from among them, appointing him as their watchman, and he sees the sword coming against that land and blows the ram’s horn to warn the people. 
Then if anyone hears the sound of the horn but fails to heed the warning, and the sword comes and takes him away, his blood will be on his own head. Since he heard the sound of the horn but failed to heed the warning, his blood will be on his own head. If he had heeded the warning, he would have saved his life. 
But if the watchman sees the sword coming and fails to blow the horn to warn the people, and the sword comes and takes away a life, then that one will be taken away in his iniquity, but I will hold the watchman accountable for his blood.’_

I have issued the warning. I cannot impose my will on you, I can only see you off as you rush into the slaughterhouse and say sorry that I wasn't able to be more convincing or that I haven't realized what I have sooner.



Summer70 said:


> Excuse my ESFJ brainlessness... there's something I really don't get.
> 
> *If people here (of any type) have the hots for INTJs (or any other type)...
> ... why not date one you like and see if it works? (Q_Q)*
> 
> (Sorry if the answer is too obvious for all of you, but I really don't get it.)


No, it's not obvious at all, it's just... private. Were I in different circumstances in my life I think I would have enough logical justification by now to at least make an attempt.


----------



## Summer70

ciel sos infel said:


> I've heard about INTJ and INFJ pairs and they happen so there has to be strong attraction between them or else I don't think INFJ would believe it could work. It's not just theory, what I'm doing is only explaining what I've seen happen.
> 
> I already feel the pain that you're going to put yourself through because of your Ni trickster making you want the things that you don't actually want and it breaks my heart so much my eyes teared up as I'm writing this. You will suffer but instead of facing the here and now (Se) you'll reminiscence about how it used to be (Si) and fool yourself that it can be like that again. An ISFP will never allow you to take care of them emotionally to the extent your hero craves to because deep inside their soul they cannot trust you and your motivations since you cannot trust them yourself. You will never feel comforted and fulfilled and no matter how much Si sturdiness you have it will deplete your energy once you won't be able to feed yourself off of the environment. You will never find peace, security nor balance within that relationship. It will wear you and beat you down, season by season, year by year, as guilt that it is all your fault sips in and poisons your very soul because the ISFP cannot relate to you and sympathize with you properly to help you out when you need it the most. If you decide to have children they will grow up in the hell of your marriage, blown around by the bursts of emotional turmoil just as I grown crushed between sensitivity equivalents of a hammer (ISTP) and an anvil (ESTJ). When I called my ESTJ mother out on her Se critic nagging my ISTP father she just told me something that reminded me of your "because we're masochistic", she said "Oh it's just how we are, me and your dad". NO! It's not just how they are! Si critic is just defenseless against Se critic and will take everything in without a complaint! It's like holding a cat up by the skin on it's neck. Just because ISFP is critical of their own comfort, they own bodily needs etc DOESN'T MEAN THEY DON'T HAVE THEM. They just cannot justify satisfying those needs and another Se parent would solve that. I'm sometimes trying to care of my pops but he's just being obstinate and dismissive while if I were ISFP I would sympathize with him properly, with super strong internal motivation of Fi hero, enough confidence in my Se and childish Ni (that wants it's Fi whims fulfilled) to not care for his will and force him to rest, one way or another.
> 
> _‘Suppose I bring the sword against a land, and the people of that land choose a man from among them, appointing him as their watchman, and he sees the sword coming against that land and blows the ram’s horn to warn the people.
> Then if anyone hears the sound of the horn but fails to heed the warning, and the sword comes and takes him away, his blood will be on his own head. Since he heard the sound of the horn but failed to heed the warning, his blood will be on his own head. If he had heeded the warning, he would have saved his life.
> But if the watchman sees the sword coming and fails to blow the horn to warn the people, and the sword comes and takes away a life, then that one will be taken away in his iniquity, but I will hold the watchman accountable for his blood.’_
> 
> I have issued the warning. I cannot impose my will on you, I can only see you off as you rush into the slaughterhouse and say sorry that I wasn't able to be more convincing or that I haven't realized what I have sooner.
> 
> 
> No, it's not obvious at all, it's just... private. Were I in different circumstances in my life I think I would have enough logical justification by now to at least make an attempt.


I'm sorry your love models weren't the most flourishing ones. I appreciate your concern, and wish you luck for you future love life. I hope you people will find the right fit for you, and muster the courage to date the people you want. All in all, I'm grateful for this thread as this allowed me to dig out my deepest convictions through contrast. I'm out again to my self-made hell (or so was it predicted, I don't really believe in MBTI matches nor theories in the first place). See you everyone, take care!

edit: @ciel sos infel - I've read your edit. Even though I'm not the best audience for this, I still appreciate your concern and effort.
@intranst - MBTI matches are probably aimed at people who have a Destiny belief towards love. I have more a Growth belief about love, so I don't feel concerned about these issues. (Destiny Beliefs VS Growth Beliefs) I didn't expect so many people to be into these things, so it was... entertaining to read.

edit2: I don't hate you, I already said that he was the worst and that that worst was the best, so I'm prepared for the worst. Thanks. Anyhow, I won't reply anymore now, as I have other things to handle, sorry about that. It was an interesting thread --in its own way-- nonetheless, so thanks again.


----------



## intranst

I may not be sold on @ciel sos infel theory, but we can agree that the traditional "golden pair" of having inverted functions in the same order (ENFJ-INFP, etc) is not ideal and is a narrative that I wish was pushed less because people end up reading that it's the best match in their Google search and then actively seek those types while preaching to others that it's gospel.


----------



## ciel sos infel

@Summer70 I've added a bit explaining about why growth doesn't really happen between ego-shadow pairing to my post, its kinda important so I thought I'd mention it


----------



## ciel sos infel

Summer70 said:


> I'm sorry your love models weren't the most flourishing ones. I appreciate your concern, and wish you luck for you future love life. I hope you people will find the right fit for you, and muster the courage to date the people you want. All in all, I'm grateful for this thread as this allowed me to dig out my deepest convictions through contrast. I'm out again to my self-made hell (or so was it predicted, I don't really believe in MBTI matches nor theories in the first place). See you everyone, take care!
> 
> edit: @ciel sos infel - I've read your edit. Even though I'm not the best audience for this, I still appreciate your concern and effort.


I wouldn't believe anyone if they tried to warn me about her... I thought that this pull is what love means and now I know it's just magnetic attraction between the functions.
At the very least try to take some of my advice to heart and counteract the effects of shadow function interactions, for as long as you'll have the strength remaining.
I wish you all the best, but I have no logical justification to place any hope in that wish.
I know you hate me now that I spoke against the best thing in your life right now, but please be well and don't put all the responsibility on yourself if it doesn't work out.


----------



## ciel sos infel

A bit of an offtopic but the recent conversation has made me think about some things.
I recall a sentiment within society, at least the male part of it, that you shouldn't try to understand women, that yes means no and no means yes and all sorts of sayings like that and I wonder - is it just that women are irrational or is it a work of Ni trickster, ESFJs being one of the largest parts of female population and observations about it have been passed around in form of those stereotypes.
I also recall seeing a video once, a compilation of two clips - one showing snippets of woman doing some really hardcore porn, being basically brutalized and later saying she enjoyed it and agreed to everything in an after shot interview and the other clip showing her take part in some sort of talk or morning trivia show and saying how she's going through therapy after that scene and how much it actually hurt her. I wonder, was it just deceitful pity/attention seeking or were those the effects of following her Ni trickster.
I can't be certain which it was, but there is a moral from this story that rings true anyway and that is: don't trust your trickster function.


----------



## intranst

Summer70 said:


> MBTI matches are probably aimed at people who have a Destiny belief towards love. I have more a Growth belief about love, so I don't feel concerned about these issues. (Destiny Beliefs VS Growth Beliefs) I didn't expect so many people to be into these things, so it was... entertaining to read.


You may be right, but I personally am growth oriented. Loving someone is a conscious choice, otherwise it's all just emotional projection and being obsessive about them because your brain started going on a dopamine trip. MBTI can be a good tool for giving us insight into the motivations of a potential partner, which is important for the foundation of a relationship to be solid, to know that this is a person worth investing in.


----------



## intranst

ciel sos infel said:


> A bit of an offtopic but the recent conversation has made me think about some things.
> I recall a sentiment within society, at least the male part of it, that you shouldn't try to understand women, that yes means no and no means yes and all sorts of sayings like that and I wonder - is it just that women are irrational or is it a work of Ni trickster, ESFJs being one of the largest parts of female population and observations about it have been passed around in form of those stereotypes.
> I also recall seeing a video once, a compilation of two clips - one showing snippets of woman doing some really hardcore porn, being basically brutalized and later saying she enjoyed it and agreed to everything in an after shot interview and the other clip showing her take part in some sort of talk or morning trivia show and saying how she's going through therapy after that scene and how much it actually hurt her. I wonder, was it just deceitful pity/attention seeking or were those the effects of following her Ni trickster.
> I can't be certain which it was, but there is a moral from this story that rings true anyway and that is: don't trust your trickster function.


I'd say that's a fair analysis. Ni inferior has a hard time seeing the outcome of their actions but have high Fi/Ti to be sure that the decision was their own. Ni trickster coupled with inferior Fi/Ti simultaneously fails to foresee unfamiliar events unfold and is less sure if they are making the right decision for themselves, if I have that right.


----------



## WickerDeer

ciel sos infel said:


> A bit of an offtopic but the recent conversation has made me think about some things.
> I recall a sentiment within society, at least the male part of it, that you shouldn't try to understand women, that yes means no and no means yes and all sorts of sayings like that and I wonder - is it just that women are irrational or is it a work of Ni trickster, ESFJs being one of the largest parts of female population and observations about it have been passed around in form of those stereotypes.
> I also recall seeing a video once, a compilation of two clips - one showing snippets of woman doing some really hardcore porn, being basically brutalized and later saying she enjoyed it and agreed to everything in an after shot interview and the other clip showing her take part in some sort of talk or morning trivia show and saying how she's going through therapy after that scene and how much it actually hurt her. I wonder, was it just deceitful pity/attention seeking or were those the effects of following her Ni trickster.
> I can't be certain which it was, but there is a moral from this story that rings true anyway and that is: don't trust your trickster function.


I don't think people usually trust their trickster function anyway.

The reason why there are common public sentiment like "women mean yes when they mean no" is because of social influences, history, and perhaps some mix of human nature (people IN GENERAL seem to be pretty bad at anticipating what will make them feel good or happy..or at least wrong a good portion of the time).

I think you're viewing it too narrowly if you really attribute it to Ni trickster.

Some Fe types have trouble with boundaries, especially if they were raised in situations in which they were expected to cater to the emotions of a more volatile or needy parent. And sure--most Fe types are women. And women have also generally been expected to care for the emotional needs of everyone around them, rather than have strong boundaries.

People who go through traumatic situations often compartmentalize--which means that they can separate off the painful part to deal with it later (if they ever do). Not only could the adult entertainer be doing that, which is completely normal for a trauma victim, but she could also have been under pressure by her producers to lie and say that she enjoyed it because that's what the men who consume that product want to hear. And the Adult film industry is notorious for abuses against the female porn actresses--so why you automatically assume it's female lying or whatever, rather than the reality of how the world actually is and the pressure we are all under as different humans trying to figure out our individual lives...

Is that some kind of trickster function of yours? 

I mean, I think it's a fine idea to examine it through the lens of functions, but you should also consider the realistic and more probably influences as well, which have been studied by social scientists and discussed by academia. 

I should probably not be so harsh about it, but I dislike narratives that blame women and ignore the actual forces--social, economic, political...even biological and psychological (such as trauma response...not just biological arguments about the difference of sexes) that influence people's decisions. 

And there's nothing wrong with missing that but accepting sexist or misogynistic beliefs about women leads to trauma and pain in society, not only significant psychological pain in the individual who follows that propaganda.


----------



## Red Panda

ciel sos infel said:


> To a degree but that very much depends on where the cognitive function sits. Te people are not only good at understanding what other people are saying but also at relaying things to others - like I've said input-output. It also has to do with believing things because Te cannot verify logical consistency it can only believe or disbelieve. In ENFPs Te child can be used to sell others on some idea, they can make unwary person believe anything. They make great used car salesmen for example.
> Another example Te hero is all about control, micromanaging others etc (ENTJ and ESTJs are known for that), it doesn't fit itself around the object much at all, especially in ENTJ that, critical of other's will, exert theirs via Te hero authority. Or an Fe hero ENFJ preacher moving people to act the way he wants. Extroverted function isn't always on the receiving end. It's in pessimistic spots (parent, weakling) that it tends to be more passive.
> Your definitions don't explain much at all from a practical standpoint. They are too vague and lack other aspect that the functions are responsible for (Te's need for external recognition while Ti knows if it's good enough or not on it's own, for example).
> 
> 
> 
> I'm looking at the functions directly and building explanations grounds up, while you are applying some vague overarching concepts (like being a "perceiver") detached from the mechanics and principles of how cognitive functions work and interact. They sound nice but are void of meaning. Another low Te user not understanding what they are talking about but still trying to sound smart.
> Everyone has benefits from controlling the external! ENFP for example can provide for themselves a situation where they can satisfy their material insecurities (Si weakling) if they make people believe that this concoction they are selling (which is just not tap water at all, nuh uh) will cure cancer.
> Patience running low.


Oh boy. Well, if you're interested in learning more I recommend reading Jung's book _Psychological Types_, his colleague's dr. Jacobi _The Psychology Of C.G Jung_ (much more digestible and simplified) and maybe some discussions & criticisms we've had here and here about them. Also maybe these (here and here) articles offer lots of information. You're the one not caught up in some very foundational concepts here, so I'm giving you some sources to read if you care.

The system you're using is not a bottom-up approach because it defines the cognitive functions in a backwards manner after observing the dichotomous types. For example, the INFJ in the original MBTI is an NI-FeTeSe type, but this particular stack is never tested in their tests, as they use their dichotomies to type people - it's simply part of the theoretical prescription M&B decided for their types. After the whole Grant/Brownsword era where the tertiary changed attitudes for no reason given, the 4/8 function stack theories (type dynamics) took off and so now people define the functions based on the data gathered by the MBTI dichotomous types. In short, what they define as "Fe" = FJ, and as per the prescription it is what FJs must have and work as tertiary for TPs etc. This creates a whole sphere of people trying to type others "in theory" which results in ignoring actual behaviors and the psychology of people or even worse, people trying to interpret their own behaviors through what they must theoretically be which results in great confusion as they try to fit those models. I've seen this happen a lot here in the last 12 years I've been a member and it affected me too to some degree. This is a summary and perhaps an introduction really, to the problem but it's a big issue and one has to want to uncover it really so all I can do is show you that path. I've seen this prob greatly exemplified in CSJ's descriptions of ENFPs in particular as he gets many things wrong and shows a lack of understanding what drives us which makes it more obvious he's not an ENP as well.


----------



## Red Panda

ciel sos infel said:


> Wow, what a neat way to paint a whole bunch of people as backwards ****** or whatever.
> Fear is not what causes rejection of a concept (it's only in INxP's case - Te/Fe nemesis). There's no beating anything to submission either, only a validating process (checking for logical or moral consistency). Or are only extroverts privy to the priviledge of verification? Well, ENTP can reject information before verifying just as well since they have Te critic which automatically assumes that others are in the wrong.
> Do you see how your broad attitudes don't mean shit at all because they are too vague and relying on individual functions paints far more accurate picture of the psyche?


Actually introversion is essential for surviving and even thriving, we wouldn't be here without a good mix of both. Way to completely miss the big picture here - what you called a vague statement to fool people (wtf?) is the very essence of typology - being defensive or trying to protect in some way that which you've understood isn't inherently good or bad - which one it is, depends on context like any other adaptive strategy. I can't help you there.



> Yes, ESTP super ego is different than ESTP ego just like ISTJ super ego is different than ISTJ ego. It is something ENFP or INFJ looks up to and tries to emulate according to it's own needs and motivations (which follow from cognitive functions) at least until it's unlocked and can be consciously accessed. That's evident from my example. Does it make more sense now?


What's the point of calling it a different personality if it doesn't actually relate to that personality type? If a NE is comfortable going against the statusquo while an SE isn't, why do you want to see it as part of the ESTP subpersonality of an ENFP? It seems like there's an assumption here that an ENFP just wouldn't want to go against statusquo at all but there's no reason for that to be the case as an extravert intuitive is pretty far from the norm to begin with, it's just our normal thing to do.

I can't say I look up to ESTP type, generally, I've liked some individuals and some of the things they could do but that's about it, I don't aspire to be more like an ESTP. Maybe some aspire because they haven't accepted who they are for this or that reason but that may be because the ESTP trope is a pretty badass one in the media so the influence comes from there and not some superego different personality. This is a bit different than what you're saying but I haven't seen any such aspirations in myself so idk why it should be the case, at least based on your example.



> ENFP has Fi parent which justifies most of their actions and they have Fe critic which unless matured automatically assumes everyone else's morals are wrong, that's why they can step on social rules. Now tell me where does ENFP's tendency to gather wolfpacks around them (just like ESTPs do) come from, hmm?


Well, I don't consider other peoples' morals automatically wrong and never did (not even in my unhealthier or younger states) and "Fi justifies actions" is very vague, we can say the same for any judging function. I don't gather wolfpacks around me because I find no value in that, I hate mob rule and besides I prefer to not socialize in groups either to begin with. There have been times when others came to my defense which I didn't expect and I hated the feeling (unless it was to mediate). I find it ok for other people to be involved when they are directly concerned with the matter, and not to defend me in particular. I have seen the type of mob mentality in some ESTP (not all I've met) and greatly dislike it, I find it very S related - > mob rule. And not to say a particular ENFP will never act like that, but I don't think it's something that characterizes our type, certainly not more than other types who are more conventionally social.



ciel sos infel said:


> My morality is governed by either external source of moral authority that I can trust because I haven't found moral inconsistencies via Fi critic or by what makes sense via Ti child logic. The only way Ni influences my morality is that I can see farther than vast majority of people and I base my moral judgement on the consequences of each action which I can deduce and others can't. That's the only way intuition influences moral judgement but it's a perceptive function, it provides base for judgement however is not a judging function in itself. The moral justification for action flows from elsewhere than Ni. So, unless you're misquoting something Jung's wrong on that, sorry. Classical Te thing btw. boosting your own position by what esteemed academic A has said.


Jung's description is a theoretical one of a 'pure' type who has no other developments to balance the personality, it's basically a description of the principles of the N+E. The perception function is a great influence to building a moral system but yes absolutely doesn't do it in isolation. I find interesting that Jung managed to capture that fairly accurately despite all his other faults, but also you've done the same with CSJ here so I don't see this as very noteworthy in the way you think.




ciel sos infel said:


> ERGO THE PASSIVE PROCESS AS IN NOT PRODUCING ANY NEW INFORMATION ON YOUR OWN, ONLY RECEIVING IT
> Arguing with people like you is the fucking worst.
> And by the way that's only your definition of extraversion because I've already shown active appliances of extraverted functions (input is passive, output is active).


When you process something, you can produce a new understanding of it and thus potentially a new way to understand the world. Which is not something passive, it's part of the evolution that characterizes our species in building intelligence.





ciel sos infel said:


> Another sentence that doesn't mean anything. Do you understand what I told you about Te being void and vapid? Who do you think you're fooling with your bullshit, ENFP. Do you think I don't know your shitty games by heart now?


drink a chamomille or something, then try again, maybe. And look, if you just want ways to feel how your enfp ex was bad in this or that way and it didn't work between you, ok.. but I prefer to move from that and to understand the human condition, and typology is one of the tools for that and figuring out how it fits our evolution is the most interesting thing to me. I'm actually surprised you don't see it or don't care for it when you say you're Ni dom, but ok, maybe a double chamomille and you might want to reexamine one day.



> Okay Ti trickster, you've tried.
> I'll try to explain what Ti is so that even a low Te user can get it okay?
> Ti deals with raw concepts. An unformed idea, a primal understanding that then tries to flow out into the external as words. The words are only vehicles of those concepts and are meaningless on their own, but for you, Te child user, words and definitions are the only thing you can work with because you cannot compute the concepts that they try to represent properly on your own to actually understand what is being talked about to a level which allows you to produce your own definitions because you have no capacity to conjure that raw idea within you. That is my basis for deciding what's wrong. I have Ti child in the ego, you only have Ti trickster.
> Now what you've been doing is applying attitudes of extroversion and introversion to entire persons with definitions of extraversion (passive, being changed by the world) that do not reflect reality at all and makes no sense. Do you see now how I know you're wrong even if the way you're talking about 'attitudes' is confusing? It's confusing because it's illogical, not because you're too smart for me.


Well, it seems I stepped on some toes here, make it a triple chamomille instead? You can rationalize your own lack of understanding here any way you want, I can't help with that.



ciel sos infel said:


> What you're here saying basically is: "you're wrong because in my model things work differently and have different definitions".
> If we cannot agree on what an ENTJ is then why are we even discussing with one another? What basis for communication do we have if our definitions are not congruent? Do you see the disconnect or does it elude you?


of course I see it but you asked for a challenge and since we had similar conclusions I thought to expand on how our process differs. If you don't want to, you don't have to reply further.


----------



## WickerDeer

ciel sos infel said:


> "Looking good" as in paying attention to your body, clothes, trying to look sharp, giving a pleasant sensory experience is absolutely a Se thing. Se user might have times when they decide against it via some judging function justification but they know what looks good and they know when they don't look good. Si user has to learn what to wear by memory or else they end up with this quirky but possibly cute style.
> That being said there are differences between Se in different stack positions and I fancy low Se the most since they tend to look classy.
> 
> 
> High Se is more confident so they might be not as fixated as low Se from some perspective but body building training is different than strength or endurance training and I'd guess most people doing body building have high Se.
> 
> 
> It's not only a stereotype or my projection. It's just how the function works. It wants to suck up the sensations from environment so it makes the user pay attention to their looks.
> 
> 
> On that I can agree but
> 
> Whaa... No. I've already told you, weakling function is insecure so it tries super hard to impress. I cannot think of any situation that I would tie Ni into this.
> Please watch "cognitive attitudes of **** function" series by CS Joseph on YT. Yes he's smuggling his manipulation here and there but he's correct on most of information in those videos.


I disagree about Se and looking good. I really do not think Se types are preoccupied by looks in general or imagery.

They look good as a consequence of having Se not because Se makes them want to look good. I also disagree that body building is especially Se. Bodybuilding is more about end result whereas Se is an extroverted perceiving function. Bodybuilding is also very boring, and probably more boring to those with more adrenaline junkie personalities, though an Se dom would probably be better at body building than other types might be.

And I still think you're projecting your insecurities onto Se dom and aux, because you want to look good for some other purpose.

I do not think most Se doms care that much about looking good--they do to an extent, but it's not even a big priority beyond what's useful and makes it easier for them to do what they really enjoy, for most of them. They just look good because society values strength and extroversion, and probably Se to some extent.

Maybe I will watch CS Joseph eventually.

Si are the fashion police, especially Si Fe--because they notice when people look different, which is in some way breaking fashion rules or looking "quirky" or like "freaks."

Si Te might be unfashionable or frumpy--okay they probably are, usually. But Si Fe are the ones who make fashion rules and decide what is normal, okay, or a violation of social norms.

Fashion is a way of being tribal as well--it shows what group you belong to...it's all about communicating social cues, status, social belonging...all that's Fe and Fe Si.


----------



## WickerDeer

WickerDeer said:


> I disagree about Se and looking good. I really do not think Se types are preoccupied by looks in general or imagery.
> 
> They look good as a consequence of having Se not because Se makes them want to look good. I also disagree that body building is especially Se. Bodybuilding is more about end result whereas Se is an extroverted perceiving function. Bodybuilding is also very boring, and probably more boring to those with more adrenaline junkie personalities, though an Se dom would probably be better at body building than other types might be.
> 
> And I still think you're projecting your insecurities onto Se dom and aux, because you want to look good for some other purpose.
> 
> I do not think most Se doms care that much about looking good--they do to an extent, but it's not even a big priority beyond what's useful and makes it easier for them to do what they really enjoy, for most of them. They just look good because society values strength and extroversion, and probably Se to some extent.
> 
> Maybe I will watch CS Joseph eventually.
> 
> Si are the fashion police, especially Si Fe--because they notice when people look different, which is in some way breaking fashion rules or looking "quirky" or like "freaks."
> 
> Si Te might be unfashionable or frumpy--okay they probably are, usually. But Si Fe are the ones who make fashion rules and decide what is normal, okay, or a violation of social norms.
> 
> Fashion is a way of being tribal as well--it shows what group you belong to...it's all about communicating social cues, status, social belonging...all that's Fe and Fe Si.


It's also possible part of my perspective is cultural.

Where I live there are a lot of athletes that like going out in nature, and I suspect many of them are more Se motivated (cyclists, hikers, skiiers, surfers etc. outdoor sports are really common and popular here).

Whereas if you come from a big city or a smaller country that's more urban, perhaps you are seeing people engaging in different ways with their environment.

Also, in the US it's normal to look slightly rugged or be a little bit slovenly, compared to some european countries. And in my experience Se doms here are not overly focused on looks in that way either, though they do tend to look tasteful and minimalist.

There are also people who go to the gym, but those people I tend to think are more socially motivated (for looks or perhaps for strength) whereas the outdoor sports athletes tend to be more into the P experience...the "journey" and somewhat also the end result, but it's much more about enjoying the process of engaging with the environment for the sake of engaging with the environment (Se) than just to look a certain way to others.

I tend to think of Jack Johnson when I think of ESFP though I might be wrong and he might not be that type, but his music reminds me a lot of ESFP.

Maybe NFJ--but either way feeling combined with Se.







Lyrics

Watch you when you say
What you are and when you blame
Everyone, you broken king
Watch you change the frame or
Watch you when you take your aim
At the sum of everything
'Cause You and Your Heart
Shouldn't feel so far apart
You can choose what you take
Why you gotta break and make it feel so hard
You lay there in the street
Like broken glass reflecting pieces of the sun
But you're not the flame
You got the people passing by
Because you know what you don't like
It's just so easy, it's just so easy
But You and Your Heart
Shouldn't feel so far apart
You can choose what you take
Why you gotta break and make it feel so hard
Oh and You and Your Heart
Shouldn't feel so far apart
You can choose what you take
Why you gotta break and make it feel so hard
You draw so many lines in the sand
Lost the fingernails on your hands
How you're gonna scratch any backs?
Better hope that time will take our lines away
Take all our lines and
Hope that time will take our lines and
Hope that time will take our lines away
Take all our lines away


----------



## ciel sos infel

Red Panda said:


> Actually introversion is essential for surviving and even thriving, we wouldn't be here without a good mix of both.


Oh, I'm glad you think so because it didn't appear that way at all from the rather negatively charged emotive language you've been using do describe introverts in general. Inaccurately too and I've shown that.



Red Panda said:


> Way to completely miss the big picture here - what you called a vague statement to fool people (wtf?) is the very essence of typology -


No. Vague bullshit is not the essence of typology. Quite on the contrary, it's the people who approach typology like they would creative writing that make others doubt the merit of knowing cognitive mechanisms (as in cognitive functions etc).



Red Panda said:


> being defensive or trying to protect in some way that which you've understood isn't inherently good or bad - which one it is, depends on context like any other adaptive strategy. I can't help you there.


Oh but you didn't only say "being defensive". You were saying things like "beating into submission" and "making it unthreatening" too as if introvert by default is a fearful brat trembling at the perspective of being challenged by new information and that's not what's happening at all. You're talking smack, you're misrepresenting reality, I'm calling you out on it.



Red Panda said:


> What's the point of calling it a different personality if it doesn't actually relate to that personality type?


Because it works like a personality and it also works like a role model to emulate. I've outlined examples of how super ego manifests in my own life. I'm not sure what exactly how that plays out in ENFP's case. I wish I could give you examples because that would make it so much more understandable.



Red Panda said:


> If a NE is comfortable going against the statusquo while an SE isn't, why do you want to see it as part of the ESTP subpersonality of an ENFP?


Because it's a subpersonality, it's not the one in charge and my wants have nothing to do with it, it's how it works. Decision making is still done using motivations from the ego (unless you've denied your other personality's needs for too long and it takes over, it's not a possession but it's super difficult to resist because needs of your other personality become so enticing). For example free spirit Ne hero stands in stark opposition to Ni hero who takes every possible consequence it can perceive into consideration before taking a step and yet I can turn into an ENFP! It really happens, and it's not that I'm inheriting everything from an ENFP. I don't become completely irresponsible. Actually in order to go into ENFP mode I usually have to make sure beforehand that I'm not going to do any damage with my silly antics, but I can do stupid shit.
The psyche needs to balance itself out. If you are serious and responsible for too long it'll weigh like burden on you and you'll seek to rest from it by being silly and irresponsible (well, within reason). Those needs can be realized by these other personalities. It's like when you're laying in your bed for too long in the same position and you shift around. If calling them personalities irks you that much I can agree to some other term like, I don't know, modes or forms. It's not important to me as long as you get the mechanism.
Also I don't think I entirely agree about Se in ESTP being for satus-quo. ESTPs challenge status-quo all the time, they are unmanageable as kids. That being said it might have to do with Te critic defying authority by default rather than Se.



Red Panda said:


> I can't say I look up to ESTP type, generally, I've liked some individuals and some of the things they could do but that's about it, I don't aspire to be more like an ESTP. Maybe some aspire because they haven't accepted who they are for this or that reason but that may be because the ESTP trope is a pretty badass one in the media so the influence comes from there and not some superego different personality. This is a bit different than what you're saying but I haven't seen any such aspirations in myself so idk why it should be the case, at least based on your example.


I don't exactly aspire to become a soldier mindlessly following orders like ISTJ can do, however the loyalty bit itself, so long as it's not mindless and the one to serve has proven to be worthy of that service, is kind of enticing if I am to be completely honest. So you're not aspiring to be ESTP completely, you only see something about them that's totally super cool and that's probably that gathering people around you to follow you and do some stuff with you. But it also works as a defense mechanism when ego is strained to a point of collapse (that's why ENFPs and INFPs can get so brutal out of seemingly nowhere) and it also can be unlocked and accessed like other sub personalities can.
It's kinda complex and I don't get it completely myself but thankfully it's not important at all for my proposition of T/F variant pairings as the best possible.



Red Panda said:


> Well, I don't consider other peoples' morals automatically wrong and never did (not even in my unhealthier or younger states)


My ENFP ex gf tried to guilt trip me over some tiny things. In an unhealthy/immature state what's happening is that ENFP will see their selfish whims as being in the right by default because you see how wrong other people's motivations are. If you're not like that then I tip my hat to you.



Red Panda said:


> and "Fi justifies actions" is very vague, we can say the same for any judging function.


Okay, sorta fair point so I'll humor you.
Fi justifies actions that have to do with morals or identity. Example "I like red color so I'm going to buy a red dress even if cashier said I look better in a green dress" is a justification from Fi, Fi-Si even because our exemplary individual didn't care how they looked to others only what they liked and what made them comfortable. "I like it" "I don't feel like doing it" "that's so me so I'll have a go at it" "It's okay for me to go out and have fun today because I know inside that I deserve it" are some other example thoughts that can help conceptualize what sort of justifications Fi generates.
And yes every judging function has a purpose of justifying actions. Fe will motivate it's user to action when it sees that someone else is suffering or that they need help. Te... hmm I'm not sure entirely, but for example in ENFP's case it manifests as curiosity a lot - I want to know more so I'm going to go there and see what's happening there or I'm going to go ask the person that I believe is smart to explain this or that thing I've observed or get their thoughts on some subject. Ti will motivate an ISTP to buy a new tool apropriate for the job because it makes sense to have a tool that's more efficient, it has nothing to do with whether ISTP likes the tool or not (but at times might be an excuse - ISTP sees a chainsaw that caught his eye, he looks at her with dreamy eyes and then buys it telling to himself that he needs it for practical reasons BUT were our ISTP not able to find sufficient enought Ti justifiable reason he wouldn't purchase that chainsaw and leave the shop unhappy deep inside). Real life example - my ISTP father has recently bought a chainsaw that costed twice as much as the one he used so far and he wouldn't shut up about how efficient it will be to down trees with it and what neat quality of life improvements it has compared to a cheaper model even though I hadn't asked him to tell me about why he bought the item. It really felt as if he was insecure about that purchase and he tried to get me to agree with him and that's probably because he bough it on a whim that he now tries to justify with Ti hero.



Red Panda said:


> I don't gather wolfpacks around me because I find no value in that,


My ENFP ex gf did have a group of friends *centered around her*. That's what I mean by wolfpack in this context, maybe that word is misleading.



Red Panda said:


> I hate mob rule and besides I prefer to not socialize in groups either to begin with.


This has nothing to do with mob rule of any kind. Don't you have a group of friends that you go with mostly on your impulse (like you're the one that's proposing to go there and do that or whatever)? Maybe not now but earlier in life you were the leader of kids from the block or something? Maybe you gather nerds or loners around yourself, like I've heard ENFPs do, but in more loose formations - like you finish talking with one and then you go visit a different one?



Red Panda said:


> There have been times when others came to my defense which I didn't expect and I hated the feeling (unless it was to mediate).


I don't think ESTPs appreciate being helped since they want to be the ones relied upon so that bit could fit but it's not a very strong conclusion on my part.



Red Panda said:


> I find it ok for other people to be involved when they are directly concerned with the matter, and not to defend me in particular. I have seen the type of mob mentality in some ESTP (not all I've met) and greatly dislike it, I find it very S related - > mob rule. And not to say a particular ENFP will never act like that, but I don't think it's something that characterizes our type, certainly not more than other types who are more conventionally social.


I can't see that bit about ESTPs and mob rule happening, rule the mob maybe but not 'mob rule'.



Red Panda said:


> Jung's description is a theoretical one of a 'pure' type who has no other developments to balance the personality, it's basically a description of the principles of the N+E. The perception function is a great influence to building a moral system but yes absolutely doesn't do it in isolation. I find interesting that Jung managed to capture that fairly accurately despite all his other faults, but also you've done the same with CSJ here so I don't see this as very noteworthy in the way you think.


What a nice evasion. But okay, I'll be magnanimous this time.
I guess it had to start somewhere but Jung's theoretical musings have already been applied in a more practical approach. I'm not the one who figured that out, neither is CSJ (I think he credited Dr John Beebe) it's that both he and I seen this newer model fitting reality rather accurately. Sometimes people go wrong way and it's good to go back to the very basics but I don't think that's the correct approach in this case because - again - I verified this model (8 functions, 4 personalities) working so I don't need people agreeing with me on that. The justification to choose that model and not 'pure' jungian attitudes or whatever is purely logical - it works it makes things clear and understandable and it actually explains instead of rationalizing and evading the issue.
You do you, my only purpose in replying to you is to show, to anyone concerned, that your criticism of my proposition, of what type fits what type romantically, based on validity of models that I'm applying to arrive to my conclusions is moot.
(EDIT: And then he pulled up some dirty tricks so spoiler alert, I'm going to change my mind later and put an end to his bullshit, still that was my original intention)



Red Panda said:


> When you process something, you can produce a new understanding of it and thus potentially a new way to understand the world. Which is not something passive, it's part of the evolution that characterizes our species in building intelligence.


Dude. I can't believe that you really think what you're trying to pull off is going to work against me. I think your Ti trickster is starting to hear boss music by now.
Here's what happened.
You've said this:


Red Panda said:


> Originally, being extraverted means you are object>subject and thus *more open to the external influencing you*, whereas introversion is defensive against the external and tries to control it instead.


And I know you agree with the originally proposed concepts of E/I because you've said this:


Red Panda said:


> No I'm referring to how originally, an Extravert is an Extravert in both judgment and perception because Extraversion is a trait that describes a certain preference for how we adapt to the world, so it's a very important psychological trait. I don't think 16 types are an accurate representation of the real range which is why *I returned to a more Jungian approach* that treats the functional and attitudinal axes more dynamically,


Later you wrote this:


Red Panda said:


> You can't possibly believe CSJ is an ENTP... right? *He's like the anti ENP*. In his early videos he describes his process and how he enjoys walking up to people to give them insight that will change their life and *he likes to control that*... His whole channel is predicated upon the idea of controlling people.


and this:


Red Panda said:


> E *changes the self to fit the object*, I changes the object to fit the self.
> TE is being *self- adaptable to external impersonal facts* in order to measure, create conclusions and frameworks
> (...)
> NE is *self-adaptable to novel information*, being able to see subtle connections and apply them to different contexts via the principles that connect them
> and so on.
> FE *adapts the self to the object based on personal criteria/gut feelings*.
> The extravert psyche (especially of the N dom being a perceiver and thus less concerned with conclusions) *has little to no will to control what others do in a typical situation*, because they place the object above the subject. We want to observe the object as intact as possible.


Yea, you've said "typical situation" but still you're only talking about how E only adapts itself and doesn't want to control anything external.
Then this:


Red Panda said:


> That's how it works using the original observations, except Fe isn't defined as trying to control the external based on some internal need, but the opposite.


And a reminder, you mostly agree with the original observations so that's what you believe.
Later this:


Red Panda said:


> I think that's very much the introverted attitude at play. An *extravert's* *primary attitude is to change their expectations first*. It was the key difference Jung observed and named E/I.


Yea and you'll later say that both E and I exist in the same person but you're convinced that passivity is PRIMARY.



Red Panda said:


> *Extraverts* want to participate in the world, experience it and* be changed by it*, it's the common psychological aspect between ESTP and ENFP to begin with, even more so when the attitude of perception is preferred.


Here again you're not talking about principle but a human.
To which I replied:


ciel sos infel said:


> I can't figure out why *an extravert* would *only want to be changed by world around them*. Many dictators or rulers are either ENTJs or ESTPs and they change the world quite substantially, at least from geopolitical perspective.


To which you replied:


Red Panda said:


> The principles of what E/I are are like that, but the E/I attitudes exist both in a person to varying degrees based on preference.


Which would be okayish if it weren't for you talking about extraverts wanting to be *primarily* changed which is complete bull. They change external as much as they are changed by it because it's natural for them (EDIT: and they by default imagine others are like them so extraverts think the others won't mind - just like for me it is normal to be apprehensive about imposing on other people's free will because I don't like when people are imposing on mine. However having Fe I found myself imposing my standards of morality on others so long as I felt it was justified. So again introverted function does internal justification, validation, processing and generation of completely fresh content, extraverted function is input and output - being influenced and influencing - and that doesn't need to mean anything evil because introverted function is cut off from the external and thus becomes blind so extroverted function provides much needed feedback from the external by influencing the introverted with e.g. observations about how others feel about what Fi user is doing.)

In that same post you've said this:


Red Panda said:


> I don't see extraversion as a passive process - basically it's an attitude of accepting challenge by novel information - *the extravert when faced with novelty tries to adjust their own understanding to this new information *- doesn't mean the new will always assimilate, but the positive attitude towards it is what the difference is here.


Which is basically backtracking all of your posts so far about extraversion being passive while still, completely illogically, saying that extraverts are passive.
And now you're just trying to play it all off with "When you process something, you can produce a new understanding of it and thus potentially a new way to understand the world. Which is not something passive" which isn't incorrect, mind you, but what about all the things you've said before? You're the one who, time and time again, focused on extraversion being so passive and pliant that you even denied CSJ being an ENTP because of that.
Man up and admit that you were wrong and that your spiel about attitudes fails to accurately describe reality.



Red Panda said:


> drink a chamomille or something, then try again, maybe. And look, if you just want ways to feel how your enfp ex was bad in this or that way and it didn't work between you, ok.. but I prefer to move from that and to understand the human condition, and typology is one of the tools for that and figuring out how it fits our evolution is the most interesting thing to me. I'm actually surprised you don't see it or don't care for it when you say you're Ni dom, but ok, maybe a double chamomille and you might want to reexamine one day.


Oh yes! Here it is! Rationalize some bullshit about the person you're arguing with instead of addressing their points! Petty little Te games.



Red Panda said:


> Well, it seems I stepped on some toes here, make it a triple chamomille instead? You can rationalize your own lack of understanding here any way you want, I can't help with that.


Oh, even gaslighting. I have all the reasons to be angry at you, you intellectual abomination. You're the one who doesn't understand anything and yet prances around thinking you're smart and respectable. Not really, Ti trickster user, not really. You can be knowledgeable but logic isn't your suit. The faster you figure that out, the less people you'll harm with it, including yourself.



Red Panda said:


> of course I see it but you asked for a challenge and since we had similar conclusions I thought to expand on how our process differs. If you don't want to, you don't have to reply further.


Challenge is of no use to me in this. I asked for Ti users' verification of my logic and Te users' real world observations. I think I've said before that I'm not interested in your model, haven't I? And yet you still yapped about your attitudes and whatnot.
So I had to reply. If Ti trickster goes unpunished it might lead to a disaster and since you have no ENTP to verbally beat the dumb out of you I had to take up that cup.


----------



## ciel sos infel

WickerDeer said:


> I disagree about Se and looking good. I really do not think Se types are preoccupied by looks in general or imagery.
> 
> They look good as a consequence of having Se not because Se makes them want to look good. I also disagree that body building is especially Se. Bodybuilding is more about end result whereas Se is an extroverted perceiving function. Bodybuilding is also very boring, and probably more boring to those with more adrenaline junkie personalities, though an Se dom would probably be better at body building than other types might be.


You have no idea what you're talking about so I'll try again.
So you're under the impression that Se is about seeking a thrill, let's go with that.
Ever heard about runner's high? A runner doesn't get this high because of some interesting vistas they're witnessing along the track or because they're competing with someone at the moment and that's the rush they're seeking - no, it's because exercise causes release of endorphins and maybe some other chemicals that cause this pleasant sensation. While runner's high is something of an extreme all physical exercise causes pleasant hormonal changes in the body, including bodybuilding and Se (especially high Se) people are sensitive to this stimulus. It's like taking drugs or drinking alcohol, high Se users will feel more sensual impact from those. I don't enjoy alcohol much but my ESTP brother and my ISTP father very much do.
Now let's think about an example of an ESFP dancer or a singer that goes onto a stage to perform. She's glamorous with make up, her figure is perfectly accompanied by her fanciful dress and she stands there, before the crowd. What does she feel with so many eyes trained on her? A thrill. Everyone around is looking at her, everyone's attention is occupied by her, not because of her eloquence or smarts (Te - although fame is a Te thing so there's part of that in there too) but because of her performance (Se). Looks are part of your physical performance. Seeing others look at them and thinking they're appealing gives Se user a thrill.
Why do body builders compete by showing off their physique? Why do they go to such lengths to reduce body fat and bodily fluid content? It serves no practical purpose, if anything it'd only make them potentially weaker since they reduce their bodies' back-up resources to a minimum. It's all about how it looks. This is how Se works, it sucks in the sensations from other people's perception of it's user giving them some measure of mental fulfillment (satiated need).



WickerDeer said:


> And I still think you're projecting your insecurities onto Se dom and aux, because you want to look good for some other purpose.


What is that purpose? Do I spend extra time before the mirror making sure I don't have any hairs sticking out of my nostrils to fulfill some sort of master plan? Yea, if I were to go up before some crowd to gather their support then maybe but that's a standard procedure for me, even if I'm just going out to buy groceries.
I'm projecting nothing in this case. High Se users are just more confident about how they present themselves so they might not pay that extra attention when not explicitly needed to make an impression.



WickerDeer said:


> I do not think most Se doms care that much about looking good--they do to an extent, but it's not even a big priority beyond what's useful and makes it easier for them to do what they really enjoy, for most of them. They just look good because society values strength and extroversion, and probably Se to some extent.


And what is your basis for thinking that? Yes, Ti-Se might be more interested in practical benefits but Fi-Se wants to dazzle, shine and glitter. What are those fancy, glamorous evening dresses even for? Because shiny catches eyes and feeling eyes focused on you gives Se a thrill.

I don't understand well what Si is, not in any deep, intimate sense at least, because I'm oblivious to it (Si blind man) and you're only little better with Se (Se trickster confusing you about what looks good) than I'm with Si so I understand why you're struggling with comprehending this but you're simply wrong about how Se works.


----------



## WickerDeer

ciel sos infel said:


> You have no idea what you're talking about so I'll try again.
> So you're under the impression that Se is about seeking a thrill, let's go with that.
> Ever heard about runner's high? A runner doesn't get this high because of some interesting vistas they're witnessing along the track or because they're competing with someone at the moment and that's the rush they're seeking - no, it's because exercise causes release of endorphins and maybe some other chemicals that cause this pleasant sensation. While runner's high is something of an extreme all physical exercise causes pleasant hormonal changes in the body, including bodybuilding and Se (especially high Se) people are sensitive to this stimulus. It's like taking drugs or drinking alcohol, high Se users will feel more sensual impact from those. I don't enjoy alcohol much but my ESTP brother and my ISTP father very much do.
> Now let's think about an example of an ESFP dancer or a singer that goes onto a stage to perform. She's glamorous with make up, her figure is perfectly accompanied by her fanciful dress and she stands there, before the crowd. What does she feel with so many eyes trained on her? A thrill. Everyone around is looking at her, everyone's attention is occupied by her, not because of her eloquence or smarts (Te - although fame is a Te thing so there's part of that in there too) but because of her performance (Se). Looks are part of your physical performance. Seeing others look at them and thinking they're appealing gives Se user a thrill.
> 
> This is how Se works, it sucks in the sensations from other people's perception of it's user giving them some measure of mental fulfillment (satiated need).


The only people I've heard describe this kind of pleasure in depth have been Ni types, like INFJ on the forum here have talked about the thrill of being someone else's object of attaction.

I've known, from irl, a close friend who seemed like an INTJ who described that kind of thrill to be able to control others or have access to them.

I do not think this is an Se doms' thrill.

I think that Se in the hero function is totally different.


----------



## WickerDeer

ciel sos infel said:


> What are those fancy, glamorous evening dresses even for? Because shiny catches eyes and feeling eyes focused on you gives Se a thrill.
> 
> I don't understand well what Si is, not in any deep, intimate sense at least, because I'm oblivious to it (Si blind man) and you're only little better with Se (Se trickster confusing you about what looks good) than I'm with Si so I understand why you're struggling with comprehending this but you're simply wrong about how Se works.



First of all--someone designing fancy shiny glamorous evening dresses doesn't have to justify it with why--they could just feel that thrill themselves.

Personally, I like the idea of fancy, glamorous evening dresses because of the scenario in which someone appreciates me and perhaps feels comfortable enough in the situation to engage in something more extreme in terms of intimacy.

That's what I like--I like the memory it might create for another person too--especially if that person were my true love.

I also get sort of detached/curious about what it all means, but ultimately for me it's not about some thrill as much as its about connecting emotionally or accessing deeper intimacy, which perhaps isn't Se.


----------



## ciel sos infel

WickerDeer said:


> The only people I've heard describe this kind of pleasure in depth have been Ni types, like INFJ on the forum here have talked about the thrill of being someone else's object of attaction.
> 
> I do not think this is an Se doms' thrill.
> 
> I think that Se in the hero function is totally different.


I don't think Se doms are interested in figuring those things out in the first place so that's why you might've heard about this from INxJ and not from high Se users.



WickerDeer said:


> I've known, from irl, a close friend who seemed like an INTJ who described that kind of thrill to be able to control others or have access to them.


That sounds more Te than Se. (EDIT: I thought about it some more and every extroverted function tries to exert some control, but still, with weakling Se I still suspect the control aspect would be more in Te mindgames realm - without knowing what kind of control that INTJ talked about the case remains open.)



WickerDeer said:


> First of all--someone designing fancy shiny glamorous evening dresses doesn't have to justify it with why--they could just feel that thrill themselves.


I wasn't talking about designers but women who decide to wear sparkly, glittering evening dresses.


----------



## intranst

Do you by chance have experience with ENTP women? ENTP women and INFJ men aren't seen together as often as INFJ women and ENTP men but just curious how you experience that dynamic compared to INTJ women and yourself.


----------



## WickerDeer

ciel sos infel said:


> I don't think Se doms are interested in figuring those things out in the first place so that's why you might've heard about this from INxJ and not from high Se users.
> 
> 
> That sounds more Te than Se.
> 
> 
> I wasn't talking about designers but women who decide to wear sparkly, glittering evening dresses.


Sparkly, glittering evening dresses can be different from each other.

If they have lace, they could remind of spider webs or veils and the sparkles can remind of stars in the sky or of the glistening of sunshine on a deep body of water.

Everyone relates to them differently.

Some people wear dresses because the dress is a designer dress and signifies status (probably would be a Te thing to do or maybe Te Se? Or Fe Se?

Or maybe they wear them because they feel they will match the room--they want to fit in? That is probably more Si Fe?

Idk--choices about appearance and clothing are so varied. 

I like some dresses, but dislike attention, so I might prefer to just wear them alone or with one person who I appreciate and trust, for a romantic dinner alone with them. That seems ideal.

Other people might enjoy the feeling of having everyone's eyes on them Te Se maybe, or being looked at favorably by the community, probably again more likely to be Fe Si but at the same time, some people might just want to fit in and have the dress be part of what creates harmony and a smooth evening without ruffling feathers (Fe?)

Tbh I don't see most Se doms wearing sparkly evening gowns, but rather doing normal things like working and hanging out with friends. In my experience Se doms are pretty down to earth, but I also come from the working class so I'm more used to being around working class Se doms and working class FeSi ESFJs etc.


----------



## ciel sos infel

intranst said:


> Do you by chance have experience with ENTP women? ENTP women and INFJ men aren't seen together as often as INFJ women and ENTP men but just curious how you experience that dynamic compared to INTJ women and yourself.


Not the best guy to ask that question but let me think. There might have been one time I had an encounter with an ENTP but I can't be sure about her type. I can't imagine any other type reacting the way she did to what I said so it's not just a hunch but at the same time it was just one conversation so no certainty whatsoever. That being said, and cutting long story short (there are some potentially funny bits but I'd rather not go into details online), she sent a cross culturally comprehensible signal that could not have been misinterpreted however it only made me suspicious of her, not horny.
So yea, not much of an experience but it shows how easily Ne nemesis can be triggered. Despite that I suspect there's a certain genre of eroticism that is most likely ENTP women domain and, with some degree of shame, I have to admit that it works on me. Maybe I'm falsely applying the type though.

As far as other people's experiences go there's an ENTP woman on yt hmm... what's her face... Melissatalks? Melissaspeaks? Something like that and in one video (something about which types she likes best or something) I remember her saying that if INFJ and ENTP meet there's no way they won't become lovers so there seems to be a strong attraction from the other side at least. Since I don't think people's sex plays a role in type matching (a type will be attractive to another type no matter which one is man/woman) CSJ had many failed relationships (since he married an ESTP then all of them) with INFJ women and I remember him once talking about how one INFJ cheated on him because of jealousy (suspicion that he's cheating on her). That struck me as odd, like some other *drastic* measures ok, but cheating? Anyway that jealousy is fueled by Ne nemesis (I for one know I'll never be able to trust that an extrovert will remain loyal to me) so same mechanisms as with ENFPs apply and that's one of the reasons why I'm against your idea that INFPs should be with ENTJs (analoguous as with ENTP-INFJ). Ne-Si really needs Ne-Si to get that a huge built in burden of negative functions taken off of their psyche, same with Ni-Se. The same sexual attraction is still there between T/F variant pairing, it's just not superficial - it's one level down. First the psychological needs are sated, then switch happens and sparks fly, and when that's over it's back to the safe mode in which neither side drives a stick into one another's hornet nest.


----------



## ciel sos infel

WickerDeer said:


> Sparkly, glittering evening dresses can be different from each other.
> 
> If they have lace, they could remind of spider webs or veils and the sparkles can remind of stars in the sky or of the glistening of sunshine on a deep body of water.
> 
> Everyone relates to them differently.
> 
> Some people wear dresses because the dress is a designer dress and signifies status (probably would be a Te thing to do or maybe Te Se? Or Fe Se?
> 
> Or maybe they wear them because they feel they will match the room--they want to fit in? That is probably more Si Fe?
> 
> Idk--choices about appearance and clothing are so varied.
> 
> I like some dresses, but dislike attention, so I might prefer to just wear them alone or with one person who I appreciate and trust, for a romantic dinner alone with them. That seems ideal.
> 
> Other people might enjoy the feeling of having everyone's eyes on them Te Se maybe, or being looked at favorably by the community, probably again more likely to be Fe Si but at the same time, some people might just want to fit in and have the dress be part of what creates harmony and a smooth evening without ruffling feathers (Fe?)
> 
> Tbh I don't see most Se doms wearing sparkly evening gowns, but rather doing normal things like working and hanging out with friends. In my experience Se doms are pretty down to earth, but I also come from the working class so I'm more used to being around working class Se doms and working class FeSi ESFJs etc.


Okay Ne, I get the idea, that hat does not need to be a hat, it might actually be a snake swallowing an elephant.
So let me rephrase. A good chunk of women, who have Se, may choose to wear particularly glittery dresses or accessories because they catch attention and make them look good - both of these factors combined resulting in a pleasant sensory feedback of being appreciated for their physicality.
Btw added an edit to my previous post since that Se/Te control thing needed further explanation.



WickerDeer said:


> Some people wear dresses because the dress is a designer dress and signifies status (probably would be a Te thing to do or maybe Te Se? Or Fe Se?


Yea, I suspect Te would be the culprit. Never cared about brands myself, not only with outfits but pretty much anything, unless that particular brand meant quality and I needed that quality (Ti motivation).
Still Te-Se will still want something that actually looks good on the person while Te-Si might only wear it only to manifest status.


----------



## intranst

Gotcha, thanks for your feedback. And yeah I agree sexual attraction is beside the point when discussing cognitive compatibility. I typically find myself attracted to ENFJs faces if you put much stock in vultology. As per the ENTJ-INFP compatibility you know my argument, but even if you view sharing perceiving functions as important for rapport, I still see Fe inferior struggling with social acceptance in a group setting which is just not on my radar at all and to add to that I’ve noticed that Fe inferiors, similar to higher Fe types but with less intensity, are quick to call Fi types selfish for social reasons. While they may be right, it still shows an undermining of individuality which I can’t get on board with.


----------



## ciel sos infel

intranst said:


> Gotcha, thanks for your feedback. And yeah I agree sexual attraction is beside the point when discussing cognitive compatibility. I typically find myself attracted to ENFJs faces if you put much stock in vultology.


Is there any freely accessible database online for that? Like 'here are 100 pictures of INFJ women' or something? I have to say I wondered if cognitive functions manifest in appearance - there's this folk wisdom around my parts that says your character will imprint itself on your features (and though not very reliable sometimes I think I can tell when someone's a scoundrel just by looking at them). From my own experience for some reason I've always been attracted to fringes or bangs on the fairer sex and I've heard somewhere that Fi women like to have bangs in their haircut and that it has to do with Fi's desire to hide itself or something. I wonder if there's anything to that.



intranst said:


> As per the ENTJ-INFP compatibility you know my argument, but even if you view sharing perceiving functions as important for rapport, I still see Fe inferior struggling with social acceptance in a group setting which is just not on my radar at all


Maybe I didn't understand you here but my INTP friend was better at socializing than me. Somewhat awkward with his jokes but still a lot better. I have much more capable Fe but Te trickster screws me over because it's like being always out of the loop, like you've slept under a rock for 100 years and then you say something that shows this and you're done for within that circle so next time you stay silent but being silent is no good either because you're not a cute girl. Then issues like being bullied or being brought up in rural area and then made to interact with city people and all sorts of factors can get involved.
I don't know what to say to you. You've seen INFPs in this thread say they like spending time with INTPs and likewise. INTJ-INFJ couples aren't just a product of my logic, they do exist and tend to last well, and the mechanisms are analogous for all T/F variant pairings.



intranst said:


> and to add to that I’ve noticed that Fe inferiors, similar to higher Fe types but with less intensity, are quick to call Fi types selfish for social reasons. While they may be right, it still shows an undermining of individuality which I can’t get on board with.


Well, sometimes Fi users can become detached from other people's feelings/values and trample on them, just like Ti model can be detached from real world data and be wrong to a point of endangering human lives if the design ever gets into production.
I know you've said "social reasons" but, personally, I wouldn't call someone selfish just because of them wanting to preserve their individuality so if you hear that from an intuitive there's most likely more to it than you realize at a first glance.
Consider the following and consider it well: if you can't get on board with being called out on being selfish *when you actually are* *selfish* then no relationship will work for you I'm afraid. Even another (or much less another) Fi user won't appreciate when this selfishness turns against them, especially since that other Fi user has their own selfish desire to be pampered, listened and appreciated for their individuality (known) which you cannot do (from the ego at least and you won't easily jump into your shadow with an ENTJ being possessive, suspicious and critical of your determination and sense of responsibility). With Fi you can only sympathize - simulate, put yourself in their shoes - completely bypassing their actual individuality, their real feelings! Only Fe can take in Fi as it is, without interference from the self. Only Fe can truly experience another person's Fi.
In the end Fi strives to be internally cohesive emotion/morality/identity system, based on data points available (and a lot of those data points are provided by Fe mind you, yours or of other people, because the self perceives itself in relation to others through contrast). Even when perfectly cohesive internally it doesn't mean that it's correct by default, always keep that in mind. And when it's wrong, changes are needed, so if you never want to compromise your individuality at all (and, ironically, never truly grasping it), the only way to do so is to be alone.

Wouldn't it be better to find someone who's visions and sense of self worth would be yours and who would absorb your whims and sense of individuality as their own, without changes where they aren't needed? Wouldn't it be better to become one? To become whole?


----------



## WickerDeer

ciel sos infel said:


> Okay Ne, I get the idea, that hat does not need to be a hat, it might actually be a snake swallowing an elephant.
> So let me rephrase. A good chunk of women, who have Se, may choose to wear particularly glittery dresses or accessories because they catch attention and make them look good - both of these factors combined resulting in a pleasant sensory feedback of being appreciated for their physicality.
> Btw added an edit to my previous post since that Se/Te control thing needed further explanation.
> 
> 
> Yea, I suspect Te would be the culprit. Never cared about brands myself, not only with outfits but pretty much anything, unless that particular brand meant quality and I needed that quality (Ti motivation).
> Still Te-Se will still want something that actually looks good on the person while Te-Si might only wear it only to manifest status.


Well I'm just going to say one more time, and this is just my limited anecdotal experience, but I've only heard two women express that longing or desire or the pleasant sensory feedback and both women were Ni types.

One was an INFJ (according to her) and the other was (probably) an ENTJ. I'm not saying all INFJ and all ENTJ are like this, but these are really the only women I've known who've described this.

The ESFJ I know said she likes to wear clothes to show off the clothes--she basically likes to be a hanger for clothing because I think the Fe Si is all about what the clothes communicate. 

The ESXPs I've known have all not really cared that much, though they will put stuff on to look nice sometimes but it's not some big priority and they won't wear especially showy things. 

Though one who I think was an ISFP woman had this thing for Calvien Klein underwear--the weirdest thing to me, but she said if she saw a man bend over and she saw the brand show on his underwear, it was a big turn on. And tbh I cannot relate to that at all. And another ESFP who was incredibly down to earth (I believe that was her type--she may have been ESTP though) did have a thing for expensive, brand name purses--but that was it and it kind of contrasted with her regularly down to earth almost tomboyish appearance.

I guess I'm kind of a stickler about men reading in to clothing because I just feel like so much is projected onto women and the fashions we wear and clothing is such a personal and individual choice.

My own dad is an ESTP though--an Se dom and he will bleach all his whites and has his own style, but it's more about efficiency and looking presentable than it is trying to glisten in front of a crowd. Though he's definitely aware of how people react to how one looks--which is why he chooses to wear only white socks and mostly white shirts so he can bleach them and ensure he looks clean even when he's working. 
This contrasts with me who basically look like I got all my clothes from the side of the road (which is true sometimes), or wear whatever I feel like mostly--like today I wore a flower summer dress and a black sweater that someone had embroidered flowers on by hand that I found at a thrift shop.

But clothing is also cultural--it's not just a cognitive function thing.


----------



## shameless

intranst said:


> What’s your take on ESFPs?


My older sis is one. I usually find them incredible reckless and wild (lol)


----------



## shameless

WickerDeer said:


> Well I'm just going to say one more time, and this is just my limited anecdotal experience, but I've only heard two women express that longing or desire or the pleasant sensory feedback and both women were Ni types.
> 
> One was an INFJ (according to her) and the other was (probably) an ENTJ. I'm not saying all INFJ and all ENTJ are like this, but these are really the only women I've known who've described this.
> 
> The ESFJ I know said she likes to wear clothes to show off the clothes--she basically likes to be a hanger for clothing because I think the Fe Si is all about what the clothes communicate.
> 
> The ESXPs I've known have all not really cared that much, though they will put stuff on to look nice sometimes but it's not some big priority and they won't wear especially showy things.
> 
> Though one who I think was an ISFP woman had this thing for Calvien Klein underwear--the weirdest thing to me, but she said if she saw a man bend over and she saw the brand show on his underwear, it was a big turn on. And tbh I cannot relate to that at all. And another ESFP who was incredibly down to earth (I believe that was her type--she may have been ESTP though) did have a thing for expensive, brand name purses--but that was it and it kind of contrasted with her regularly down to earth almost tomboyish appearance.
> 
> I guess I'm kind of a stickler about men reading in to clothing because I just feel like so much is projected onto women and the fashions we wear and clothing is such a personal and individual choice.
> 
> My own dad is an ESTP though--an Se dom and he will bleach all his whites and has his own style, but it's more about efficiency and looking presentable than it is trying to glisten in front of a crowd. Though he's definitely aware of how people react to how one looks--which is why he chooses to wear only white socks and mostly white shirts so he can bleach them and ensure he looks clean even when he's working.
> This contrasts with me who basically look like I got all my clothes from the side of the road (which is true sometimes), or wear whatever I feel like mostly--like today I wore a flower summer dress and a black sweater that someone had embroidered flowers on by hand that I found at a thrift shop.
> 
> But clothing is also cultural--it's not just a cognitive function thing.


Yeah I agree

Both of my daughters are NF, they care way more about foo foo and dressing up than me. 

The dreaded question always is.... How does this look? Do you like it? 🤣


----------



## WickerDeer

lol tmi


----------



## WickerDeer

The thing about actually dressing "well" is that you shouldn't be looking like it's a costume. It should seem effortless and people should notice without even realizing they're noticing.

That's way too much effort for me to put into it, especially since I usually don't even like attention and prefer to blend in to the background. But sometimes I like to play around and I want to start trying to develop my sensing better and maybe try to look more attractive or presentable, rather than look constantly like a "ragamuffin" which is what my dad would call me, usually.


----------



## WickerDeer

But I can imagine with the MBTI stereotypes out there people might assume that some of those costume-y photos are of sensors (I mean maybe I am a sensor but the point is that I think that MBTI stereotypes really wrongly represent ESFP especially).

My ex is ESFP and he was an environmentalist and he dressed way more tastefully and less ridiculous than me--and dressing flashy and eye-catching is often not actually fashionable, but rather a faux pas. But I don't like fashion rules anyway, though I don't bother to defy them now much since I'm older and there's no point--I just don't even think about them anymore because I don't care to impress people. But that's just me and my motivation.


----------



## intranst

ciel sos infel said:


> Is there any freely accessible database online for that? Like 'here are 100 pictures of INFJ women' or something? I have to say I wondered if cognitive functions manifest in appearance - there's this folk wisdom around my parts that says your character will imprint itself on your features (and though not very reliable sometimes I think I can tell when someone's a scoundrel just by looking at them). From my own experience for some reason I've always been attracted to fringes or bangs on the fairer sex and I've heard somewhere that Fi women like to have bangs in their haircut and that it has to do with Fi's desire to hide itself or something. I wonder if there's anything to that.
> 
> 
> Maybe I didn't understand you here but my INTP friend was better at socializing than me. Somewhat awkward with his jokes but still a lot better. I have much more capable Fe but Te trickster screws me over because it's like being always out of the loop, like you've slept under a rock for 100 years and then you say something that shows this and you're done for within that circle so next time you stay silent but being silent is no good either because you're not a cute girl. Then issues like being bullied or being brought up in rural area and then made to interact with city people and all sorts of factors can get involved.
> I don't know what to say to you. You've seen INFPs in this thread say they like spending time with INTPs and likewise. INTJ-INFJ couples aren't just a product of my logic, they do exist and tend to last well, and the mechanisms are analogous for all T/F variant pairings.
> 
> 
> Well, sometimes Fi users can become detached from other people's feelings/values and trample on them, just like Ti model can be detached from real world data and be wrong to a point of endangering human lives if the design ever gets into production.
> I know you've said "social reasons" but, personally, I wouldn't call someone selfish just because of them wanting to preserve their individuality so if you hear that from an intuitive there's most likely more to it than you realize at a first glance.
> Consider the following and consider it well: if you can't get on board with being called out on being selfish *when you actually are* *selfish* then no relationship will work for you I'm afraid. Even another (or much less another) Fi user won't appreciate when this selfishness turns against them, especially since that other Fi user has their own selfish desire to be pampered, listened and appreciated for their individuality (known) which you cannot do (from the ego at least and you won't easily jump into your shadow with an ENTJ being possessive, suspicious and critical of your determination and sense of responsibility). With Fi you can only sympathize - simulate, put yourself in their shoes - completely bypassing their actual individuality, their real feelings! Only Fe can take in Fi as it is, without interference from the self. Only Fe can truly experience another person's Fi.
> In the end Fi strives to be internally cohesive emotion/morality/identity system, based on data points available (and a lot of those data points are provided by Fe mind you, yours or of other people, because the self perceives itself in relation to others through contrast). Even when perfectly cohesive internally it doesn't mean that it's correct by default, always keep that in mind. And when it's wrong, changes are needed, so if you never want to compromise your individuality at all (and, ironically, never truly grasping it), the only way to do so is to be alone.
> 
> Wouldn't it be better to find someone who's visions and sense of self worth would be yours and who would absorb your whims and sense of individuality as their own, without changes where they aren't needed? Wouldn't it be better to become one? To become whole?


For me personally, I would not want to merge with another person as you have indicated in the last paragraph, though it took me awhile to get out of that stereotypical romantic mindset. I believe healthy individuals understand that we are two independents in a relationship, which shows general respect, responsibility for our own thoughts and emotions, and a lack of ownership over one another. The idea is that yes, two Fi users may very well have a more difficult time with each other initially, but it will teach them to learn to pay attention to an individual’s needs outside of the themselves and actually make them less selfish, which they should be in this case if they are in a committed relationship. Fe does not experience an Fi user's "real feelings" because it does not track feelings that are not expressed, which another Fi could track. Again, this has to do with following an individual's emotional framework. For example, my ENTP brother and his INFJ gf will assume I'm in a bad mood when I'm just relaxing and my face shows no expression, but I could very well be in a good mood. I could explain myself a thousand times to them and they will still go back to their assumptions since they are not putting any stock in self analysis of emotion.

I didn’t necessarily mean that Fe inferior is “struggling” socially, just that they are putting a relatively greater pressure on themselves in that realm. To an Fi we are like, just be yourself. Fi types want people to just be themselves so they can accurately judge character to decide whether they want to be around that person, which is very different from Fe’s attempt to get along with everyone, eventually a person’s true colors will show. Maybe related to Te about not wanting to waste time figuring out a person’s character?

As for the part about vultology, CognitiveTypology on YouTube has some good content and I think Objective Personality has found correlations in type related appearances though they have a fairly complicated system that is prone to mistyping. I too think people’s faces change over time based on their cognitive development to an extent. I’ve noticed tensing and relaxing of my own face muscles depending on my cognitive focus, though I doubt people will take me seriously for admitting that haha. That type of analysis seems pretty Ne-Si, would you agree?


----------



## shameless

WickerDeer said:


> But I can imagine with the MBTI stereotypes out there people might assume that some of those costume-y photos are of sensors (I mean maybe I am a sensor but the point is that I think that MBTI stereotypes really wrongly represent ESFP especially).
> 
> My ex is ESFP and he was an environmentalist and he dressed way more tastefully and less ridiculous than me--and dressing flashy and eye-catching is often not actually fashionable, but rather a faux pas. But I don't like fashion rules anyway, though I don't bother to defy them now much since I'm older and there's no point--I just don't even think about them anymore because I don't care to impress people. But that's just me and my motivation.


Sorry about your bro. Thats really sad. I enjoyed the stories you shared.

Dude I know I will sound like a damn weirdo for saying this again, but ya reminded me of my daughter. Lol she actually has a similar facial profile and funny smile. That was cute.

There are certain things I can be ostentatious as fuck and finicky about. But it is subtle things less to do with fashion. Like I hate mismatched socks so last year when I got my tax return I threw them all out, and started over with bulk socks, lol. I have a weird thing about certain shoes (not all depends) not looking too 'dirty'. Does depend. If I am wearing like converses I do not usually care. But I like my casual dress shoes to look 'fresh'. So I can be a weirdo. But none of it is really about trends, or fashion. I am more so conventional and as you mentioned efficient.

I really struggled at this rando desk job with the uniform thingy they force people to wear. Basically on day two I was like no I cannot wear this. My kid is laughing at me, that says it all. It was polyester pants, and sweater. I wear my black scrub pants, with a black polo, and then wear their collar shirt over it. I just cannot bring myself to dress in slacks and a blouse. Either a power suit, or track suit. No fricken blouse and slack tho. That is a fuck no for me. Lol.

I can go out and be 'scary' looking lol. I literally do not give a fuck if I am going to like a gas station or something. I would assume that may be a P thing. Was just saying there are times my hair is in a rats nest and not combed or showered.


----------



## Eren Jaegerbomb

Just leaving this here for reference.









Jung and the attitude of the auxiliary


I've posted before on Jung's perspective on the attitude of the auxiliary function, but I've been meaning to plant a more longform post on that subject for a while. The issue just got raised here and, rather than derail that thread, I thought it made more sense to reply in a new thread...




www.personalitycafe.com





I'll come back later.


----------



## Eren Jaegerbomb

ciel sos infel said:


> To a degree it's fine - the problem lies in how much of the time the extravert needs to spend with other people to rest from their nemesis and how much the introvert needs to get away from other people to rest from their nemesis. The couple that plays together stays together and between an extrovert and an introvert it's always a tug of war or you have to waste energy by being not who you really are. When you add a time vampire that is job this might not be felt as much but as my parents are ESTJ-ISTP I feel the palpable dissonance between them. My mother confided to me that it looks good from the outside but it really isn't. She tanks it with Si parent yes, but that's not the damage she should be tanking in my mind and my pops shouldn't need to be nagged all the time with Se critic because Si critic has no defense against it and it actually caused my mom to be one hell of a bitch because she got the impression that she isn't doing anything wrong and she's just 'pointing out wrongs' yea, but you don't need to do it for 15 minutes straight, I heard you the first time.
> I really don't think Si should be tanking damage from the person they love.
> 
> 
> Don't get angry please, take it just as a literary example if you need to but Jesus and God the Father is a very good example of how INTJ-INFJ relationship would function in my estimation. "I and my Father are one", "My food is, that I may do the will of Him who sent me" (Fe feeding on Fi) are Jesus' own words. Ni-Ti isn't that much for pursuing it's own thing. It's purpose is to resist. For example which work groups protest the most? Farmers (Ti hero ISTP), labourers (Ti hero ISTP and Ti parent ESTP) and nurses (Ti child ISFJ). Ti functions are like "I don't deserve to be treated this poorly" and Fi goes like "I deserve to have the nice things". So Ni-Fi is not the same as Ni-Ti, they complement each other and together make a one unit that lives in the Ni future.
> 
> 
> Te trickster forbids Ti child to be understood and Ti child needs a day in the court. Fe trickster screws over how people receive Fi child but Fi child wants to be known. You've caught that correctly but that's not all there's to it. A relationship between INFJ and INFJ however seems to me like it's licking each others wounds. But again INTJ and INFJ share no personality in their stacks and perceptive functions don't work alone. I've explained that part enough.
> 
> 
> From what little I heard ISFJ and ISTJ form very stable pairs and think about it - ISFJ is the most common woman type and ISTJ is the most common man type. The math works out pretty neat at least.
> I think ENFJ and ENTJ are perfectly suited for each other because ENFJ doesn't even know what Te status is so they can bypass it and get intimate with ENTJ easier. Haven't known any in person so I don't feel mentally secure talking about them in depth but the Ne critic situation sounds reminiscent of my Ne nemesis.
> Thanks for your input, while seeing others disagree with me is a bit stressful - like I've said, I want to be disproven if I'm actually wrong.


Can confirm somewhat- about people needing partners similar to them. I've seen it with people I'm close with. 

I've seen it with an intro & extra, and two extroverts with different functions, that don't really enjoy some of each other's activities.


----------



## Eren Jaegerbomb

0.M.I.A.0 said:


> Sorry about your bro. Thats really sad. I enjoyed the stories you shared.
> 
> Dude I know I will sound like a damn weirdo for saying this again, but ya reminded me of my daughter. Lol she actually has a similar facial profile and funny smile. That was cute.
> 
> There are certain things I can be ostentatious as fuck and finicky about. But it is subtle things less to do with fashion. Like I hate mismatched socks so last year when I got my tax return I threw them all out, and started over with bulk socks, lol. I have a weird thing about certain shoes (not all depends) not looking too 'dirty'. Does depend. If I am wearing like converses I do not usually care. But I like my casual dress shoes to look 'fresh'. So I can be a weirdo. But none of it is really about trends, or fashion. I am more so conventional and as you mentioned efficient.
> 
> I really struggled at this rando desk job with the uniform thingy they force people to wear. Basically on day two I was like no I cannot wear this. My kid is laughing at me, that says it all. It was polyester pants, and sweater. I wear my black scrub pants, with a black polo, and then wear their collar shirt over it. I just cannot bring myself to dress in slacks and a blouse. Either a power suit, or track suit. No fricken blouse and slack tho. That is a fuck no for me. Lol.
> 
> I can go out and be 'scary' looking lol. I literally do not give a fuck if I am going to like a gas station or something. I would assume that may be a P thing. Was just saying there are times my hair is in a rats nest and not combed or showered.


Definitely more of a P thing, and even more so of an ESTP thing.


----------



## ciel sos infel

intranst said:


> For me personally, I would not want to merge with another person as you have indicated in the last paragraph, though it took me awhile to get out of that stereotypical romantic mindset.


_The Jian, also known as 'the bird that shares wings', only possesses one wing. Unless a male and female join and act as one they're incapable of flight. They're imperfect, incomplete creatures. But for some reason their way of life struck me as profoundly beautiful._



intranst said:


> I believe healthy individuals understand that we are two independents in a relationship, which shows general respect, responsibility for our own thoughts and emotions, and a lack of ownership over one another.


You're not loosing anything by giving of what already overflows and if, for what you have in abundance, you're getting what you lack the most in return - there's no better arrangement. Maybe you don't notice it but looking at cognitive functions I can see clearly that there's a Fi hero shaped hole in an INTP and a Ti hero shaped hole in an INFP. And guess what you both want that independence, I've exchanged couple posts with an INTP in this thread and he(?) echoed your sentiment but from Ti side (he was afraid that by having INFP rely on his Ti he would be infringing on INFP's independence). Imagine yourself but having all the things that you always lacked and willing to share them with you in exchange for the things that you possess. Would you force that woman, to whom you can relate on such a deep level, into anything? Neither would she. A bit of an idealized scenario since there are other layers of compatibility that are important as well but since we're talking type pairing not human pairing then I can get away with it.



intranst said:


> The idea is that yes, two Fi users may very well have a more difficult time with each other initially, but it will teach them to learn to pay attention to an individual’s needs outside of the themselves and actually make them less selfish, which they should be in this case if they are in a committed relationship.


My Si sucks so maybe I've already used this example in this thread or in the op but coming at it from another way when Fe ends up with Fe, and a time for whim based decision comes, it goes like:
"So what do you feel like doing?"
"I don't know, how about you? What do you feel like doing?"
"Not really sure, is there nothing that you feel like doing?"
Until one *forces themselves* into deciding and bleed energy. They're not comfortable making that decision, they haven't farmed enough Fe justification to be selfish for a change (going into their anima/us). They aren't developing themselves, they're forcing themselves to be someone they are not.
Now with two Fi users you get another stalemate:
"I feel like doing this."
"Well, I feel like doing that other thing."
Until one *forces themselves *into sacrificing their whim for today, bleeding energy, or they go their own ways and if that continues they split for good.
I understand that it seems to be rational to think that requiring this sort of sacrifice would be the way to go in order to make someone less selfish but the problem lies in that act of *forcing*. This is a stress factor which builds up over time and since this is the default forms interaction it's going to build up fast.
The proper solution is this: Fe user caters to Fi user's whims, fulfilling both of their immediate psychological needs, until Fi user, out of their own volition, starts sympathizing with Fe user and does something for Fe user or provides a justification for doing something Fe user would like but cannot allow themselves to do without Fi (and with T/F variant pairing that sympathising simulation is accurate because of identical N-S needs).

Now with ENTJ-INFP in particular there's one more problem. Suppose that INFP finally resolves to do something and, for example, writes a book that makes them really famous, giving them so much status and recognition to feed that malnourished Te weakling, always living in Te hero's shadow. Do you know what ENTJ feels then? Ti nemesis fueled mounting fear, insecurity about their own worth, that now you're famous you'll cheat on them or leave them because you don't need them nor the umbrella of protection they provide with their Te hero because now you're completely independent and uncontrollable and thus cannot be trusted to provide psychological resources to feed their cognitive functions. I've heard about ENTJ woman that left her man the moment he became successful, kinda contrary to how it usually goes between men and women but I don't doubt that really happened, when you understand negative cognitive functions it makes perfect sense.




intranst said:


> Fe does not experience an Fi user's "real feelings" because it does not track feelings that are not expressed, which another Fi could track.


I beg to differ. It just it needs to be attuned, focused and actually used. I've heard two girls, INTJ(?) and INFP, talking about their interaction with INFJs and how an INFJ, after spending some time together with them, can figure them out perfectly as if they're telepathic. Because it probably is telepathic but I won't be able to prove that any time soon. I'll just note that my Te dom ESTJ mother told me that when she was younger she could pretty accurately read people's minds when she focused, like what card have they chosen or what noumber are they imagining right now, simple things like that but still. I've heard that emotions have a measurable frequency to them, I don't know if that's true but if it is then a frequency, a wave, a vibration can be read by an instrument that's tuned to pick up on those frequencies and that instrument would be Fe.



intranst said:


> Again, this has to do with following an individual's emotional framework. For example, my ENTP brother and his INFJ gf will assume I'm in a bad mood when I'm just relaxing and my face shows no expression, but I could very well be in a good mood. I could explain myself a thousand times to them and they will still go back to their assumptions since they are not putting any stock in self analysis of emotion.


I don't know what relationship you have with your ENTP brother and his INFJ gf or how much time do you spend with them or how much do they actually care about you. Fe tends to pick up emotional signals autonomously but you can shut it off or pay little attention to it. Maybe Fi needs to be broadcasted too (like conscious or unconscious "I need help" signal). All I can say is that I'm not always in a state in which I feel other people's suffering. I'd go positively mad if I couldn't take any breaks with how much I can feel when I enter that state.



intranst said:


> I didn’t necessarily mean that Fe inferior is “struggling” socially, just that they are putting a relatively greater pressure on themselves in that realm. To an Fi we are like, just be yourself. Fi types want people to just be themselves so they can accurately judge character to decide whether they want to be around that person, which is very different from Fe’s attempt to get along with everyone, eventually a person’s true colors will show.


Fe does not have to wait for the "eventually" since it has a fairly good idea about other people's motivations (who's trustworthy), or at least Fe figures it out quicker than Fi does (at the cost of not being as in depth of a verification). From this it follows that the whole "getting along with everyone" is often a facade, a social game, not unlike Te mind games, where Fe users try to make their target seem like the bad guy without coming off as judgemental or whatever.



intranst said:


> Maybe related to Te about not wanting to waste time figuring out a person’s character?


I don't think it's Te not wanting to waste time - if anything it would be tied to Te weakling's worry whether a person can be believed about this or that, or are they trying to manipulate you since Te weakling, not being very capable with figuring mind games, has to put double the effort and a verification of person's character through Fi would ease some of those burdens. Now what if that Fe person has no ulterior Fi motive, is super reasonable and believeable, and they don't even like exerting control over anyone or pushing their worldview onto anyone, like, you know a Ti hero INTP with properly working Te nemesis? _Wink wink nudge nudge._



intranst said:


> As for the part about vultology, CognitiveTypology on YouTube has some good content and I think Objective Personality has found correlations in type related appearances though they have a fairly complicated system that is prone to mistyping. I too think people’s faces change over time based on their cognitive development to an extent. I’ve noticed tensing and relaxing of my own face muscles depending on my cognitive focus, though I doubt people will take me seriously for admitting that haha. That type of analysis seems pretty Ne-Si, would you agree?


No real understanding about what Si's awareness of user's own body is like and to what extent it works (since no conscious awareness of Si to introspect) but maybe? I'm really not good with Si stuff yet. But since you're considering it despite the subject not being anything widely accepted yet a Ne-Te curiosity and experimentation bit seems to be included. Maybe Ne-Si-Te analysis then? Haha.
Thanks for the leads, maybe one day someone will compile a database of faces grouped by 4 letter type, then someone else could feed that to an AI and voila a MBTI waifu generator.


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## ciel sos infel

Eren Jaegerbomb said:


> Just leaving this here for reference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jung and the attitude of the auxiliary
> 
> 
> I've posted before on Jung's perspective on the attitude of the auxiliary function, but I've been meaning to plant a more longform post on that subject for a while. The issue just got raised here and, rather than derail that thread, I thought it made more sense to reply in a new thread...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.personalitycafe.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll come back later.


Didn't read but is this that whole "extraverted attitude wants to be primarily changed by the external rather than changing the external" thing?


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## Eren Jaegerbomb

ciel sos infel said:


> Didn't read but is this that whole "extraverted attitude wants to be primarily changed by the external rather than changing the external" thing?


Yep.


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## intranst

ciel sos infel said:


> You're not loosing anything by giving of what already overflows and if, for what you have in abundance, you're getting what you lack the most in return - there's no better arrangement. Maybe you don't notice it but looking at cognitive functions I can see clearly that there's a Fi hero shaped hole in an INTP and a Ti hero shaped hole in an INFP. And guess what you both want that independence, I've exchanged couple posts with an INTP in this thread and he(?) echoed your sentiment but from Ti side (he was afraid that by having INFP rely on his Ti he would be infringing on INFP's independence). Imagine yourself but having all the things that you always lacked and willing to share them with you in exchange for the things that you possess. Would you force that woman, to whom you can relate on such a deep level, into anything? Neither would she. A bit of an idealized scenario since there are other layers of compatibility that are important as well but since we're talking type pairing not human pairing then I can get away with it.


I don't think the functions play out like that, my focus is on Fi whether I like it or not. Sure, feeding Ti perspectives into it helps my world view, but it doesn't somehow neutralize my modus. The INFP-INTP connection is intellectual, but that's not how I get close to people on an intimate level or put trust in them despite enjoying the interaction.



ciel sos infel said:


> My Si sucks so maybe I've already used this example in this thread or in the op but coming at it from another way when Fe ends up with Fe, and a time for whim based decision comes, it goes like:
> "So what do you feel like doing?"
> "I don't know, how about you? What do you feel like doing?"
> "Not really sure, is there nothing that you feel like doing?"
> Until one *forces themselves* into deciding and bleed energy. They're not comfortable making that decision, they haven't farmed enough Fe justification to be selfish for a change (going into their anima/us). They aren't developing themselves, they're forcing themselves to be someone they are not.
> Now with two Fi users you get another stalemate:
> "I feel like doing this."
> "Well, I feel like doing that other thing."
> Until one *forces themselves *into sacrificing their whim for today, bleeding energy, or they go their own ways and if that continues they split for good.
> I understand that it seems to be rational to think that requiring this sort of sacrifice would be the way to go in order to make someone less selfish but the problem lies in that act of *forcing*. This is a stress factor which builds up over time and since this is the default forms interaction it's going to build up fast.
> The proper solution is this: Fe user caters to Fi user's whims, fulfilling both of their immediate psychological needs, until Fi user, out of their own volition, starts sympathizing with Fe user and does something for Fe user or provides a justification for doing something Fe user would like but cannot allow themselves to do without Fi (and with T/F variant pairing that sympathising simulation is accurate because of identical N-S needs).


I have seen this between two Fe's plenty of times, where they seem to take forever just to figure out where to eat. I assumed that it is just in my eyes since it's not that hard for me to pick a place to eat, decide what to do, etc. I would argue that it's better for them to figure it out together cuz that's kind of the idea behind cooperation. It annoys me when it's myself and an Fe type and I'm throwing out options only for them to tip toe around such a simple decision that would've been easier for me to coordinate with if they gave me some Fi to work with, because I care about their wants/needs along with my own. Mind you, this is with me being very cordial about their preferences. You're still insisting here that Fe caters to Fi but healthy Fi doesn't want that, it wants to know your own Fi so it can coordinate properly. Fe and Fi are not building blocks, all it does is create unnecessary tension by reading each other wrong.



ciel sos infel said:


> Now with ENTJ-INFP in particular there's one more problem. Suppose that INFP finally resolves to do something and, for example, writes a book that makes them really famous, giving them so much status and recognition to feed that malnourished Te weakling, always living in Te hero's shadow. Do you know what ENTJ feels then? Ti nemesis fueled mounting fear, insecurity about their own worth, that now you're famous you'll cheat on them or leave them because you don't need them nor the umbrella of protection they provide with their Te hero because now you're completely independent and uncontrollable and thus cannot be trusted to provide psychological resources to feed their cognitive functions. I've heard about ENTJ woman that left her man the moment he became successful, kinda contrary to how it usually goes between men and women but I don't doubt that really happened, when you understand negative cognitive functions it makes perfect sense.


Possibly, but my argument would be that the ENTJ and INFP have connected via Fi which would ideally override any strong need for validation from society. A person's status has little to no effect on how I view them as an individual and I expect the same from ENTJ, which I assume would be the case if they have a shred of Fi in them.



ciel sos infel said:


> I don't think it's Te not wanting to waste time - if anything it would be tied to Te weakling's worry whether a person can be believed about this or that, or are they trying to manipulate you since Te weakling, not being very capable with figuring mind games, has to put double the effort and a verification of person's character through Fi would ease some of those burdens. Now what if that Fe person has no ulterior Fi motive, is super reasonable and believeable, and they don't even like exerting control over anyone or pushing their worldview onto anyone, like, you know a Ti hero INTP with properly working Te nemesis? _Wink wink nudge nudge._


I figured the mind game thing was more Se blind not being able to track patterns accurately for inconsistent behavior in people in general but you do have a point here. Though if I'm right, then INTPs suffer from the same delusion which is not helpful for either.


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## WickerDeer

ciel sos infel said:


> The Jian, also known as 'the bird that shares wings', only possesses one wing. Unless a male and female join and act as one they're incapable of flight. They're imperfect, incomplete creatures. But for some reason their way of life struck me as profoundly beautiful.


We already are somewhat interdependent on others. We have mitochondria in our cells that likely came from a different single celled organism (were--at one point) which is why they have a separate set of DNA. So I mean...everything's already sort of like that. 

I can't say I really share your sentiment about the bird that shares wings, except in that I can see how two people can complement each other enough to allow each of them to soar to greater heights than they would alone. 

But I think cognitive functions don't really describe where one wants to go. That is more individual.

INFPs don't all want the same thing. Neither do ENTJs or ISTPs or ESTPs. It's all more personal, I think. 

So maybe up and down is different for everyone--perhaps up to me is to do art and to be healthy and focus on well being and discover new things, whereas up for an INTP might be to do something completely different. Cognitive functions cannot be solely responsible for where we want to go?

Wouldn't both birds need to at least want to go the same place? I mean, they might not even see the world the same way and so one bird might know of places the other bird doesn't know--if they both could have flown on their own, which we will assume that they can. 

idk To me, I was in a relationship with a judger and I found that beneficial in some ways because I don't tend to keep track of things like schedule, and I also don't tend to plan things that well. If a judger wants to go in the same direction I do, I find them very helpful as they have a set of skills that I don't have that allow them to focus on things I missed. And I can also help them focus on the smaller things in life they are forgetting to appreciate in the moment. I feel like I share a lot of weaknesses that an INTP has or an INFP has, and that we would amplify that. Though there are INFP and INTP that work great together too--it seems more individual than type.

Could it be you are inventing this entire system just to justify your desire to be with an INTJ? When maybe it's just more personal to you?

I've known an INTJ who idealized INFJ and would have shared the same desire though he was heterosexual so wouldn't be interested in you. I already said that but I think it's individual and not so much about type. That INTJ also had really weak Te imo compared to other INTJ. You also seem to be less into Fe and more into your introverted functions, like Ti and Ni, but idk. I don't really know you.


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## ciel sos infel

Eren Jaegerbomb said:


> Yep.


Yeah, nah. I don't know about attitudes since attitude separated from function is way out there in theoretical clouds to me, at least compared to cognitive functions but that's not how extraverted functions work.
Extraverted functions deal with input and output. A function gets changed by the external and it changes the external back because impressing that change upon others is as natural as being impressed yourself - most people by default project their own needs onto others so e.g. a dutiful person will expect dutifulness out of others and a user of extraverted function won't think much about exerting the authority of that function onto others influencing them within the range of that function. You can argue that the motivation for that might come from introverted function but still it's the extraverted function that's used most often because of it's ease of communication with the external.
One very clear example of that would be an extravert Te dom like ENTJ who make use of their Te to change the external (play mindgames with people, climb hierarchical ladder, order people around etc.) without batting an eye.


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## ciel sos infel

intranst said:


> I don't think the functions play out like that, my focus is on Fi whether I like it or not. Sure, feeding Ti perspectives into it helps my world view, but it doesn't somehow neutralize my modus. The INFP-INTP connection is intellectual, but that's not how I get close to people on an intimate level or put trust in them despite enjoying the interaction.


I guess you might not see the immediate value in Ti since for you it's blind man and you're not very aware of what it is in the first place (sure you might read about it like I can about Si but Si still doesn't click to me) like I don't see the immediate value in Te (Te trickster goes like what's status lol; I probably told an admin off or something because I don't even read people's titles). Just because you're not aware of needing it doesn't mean you don't. That's kinda important.
Why would INFP-INTP connection be only intellectual? That Fe weakling is there to listen and engage INFP emotionally. Two most attractive spots for Fi hero are Fe hero (but you know how that goes) and Fe weakling. Remember you need Fe to actually care about what you're talking when you're dumping your pent up emotional loads. Another Fi user won't take you in, they'll flow in their own Fi bubble having their own impressions and emotions about what you're saying just like I, hearing Ti user's idea about how things should be done, have my own ideas in the works. Why is that bad? For example whenever I help my ISTP father with some work he has a tendency to think out loud about how to approach the project, which I used to understand as him fishing for ideas but when my Ti child, eager to speak it's mind, opens up I get shot down immediately, sometimes without my idea being considered at all - just dismissed with a stock phrase, because he already knows better and doesn't even care about what I have to say (and then he has the audacity to complain how I'm never interested in anything we do, how I don't get involved and just wait for commands like a robot). This is how it probably feels for a low Fi user to interact with Fi hero. It might not be as obvious with Fi hero - Fi weakling interaction since weakling will not question the hero for longer since it's looking up to him so much however it secretly wants to become a hero themselves and by staying with Fi hero this won't happen I'm afraid. WickerDeer talked something about being in a relationship with another high Fi, how there's "too much idealism" or something. Doesn't seem to work out very well.



intranst said:


> I have seen this between two Fe's plenty of times, where they seem to take forever just to figure out where to eat. I assumed that it is just in my eyes since it's not that hard for me to pick a place to eat, decide what to do, etc. I would argue that it's better for them to figure it out together cuz that's kind of the idea behind cooperation.


It's because neither has that idea of what they feel like doing or they have some inclination but don't feel justified to demand it at all. That's how it is having no positive Fi in ego. Yes, it's as bad as it looks, it sucks ass because majority of life's decisions are whim based.
Deciding what to do isn't something you can arrive at through some sort of group think or teamwork - one thing you could do is to perhaps look together at what's a popular past time and kinda, maybe get into it a little only to realize it's not anything either of Fe users were into in the first place and now they both feel bad about making the other person do something they didn't enjoy. It might work but it's somewhat of an educated guess, and I suspect in most cases its more guess than educated.



intranst said:


> It annoys me when it's myself and an Fe type and I'm throwing out options only for them to tip toe around such a simple decision that would've been easier for me to coordinate with if they gave me some Fi to work with, because I care about their wants/needs along with my own. Mind you, this is with me being very cordial about their preferences. You're still insisting here that Fe caters to Fi but healthy Fi doesn't want that, it wants to know your own Fi so it can coordinate properly.


*What Fe type?* That's very important. I've told you, it's all about alignment. And it's not about Fi being healthy or unhealthy as much as it's about it being a hero or not because only introverted hero pays this much attention to those matters because of it's extraverted nemesis.
That being said I get what you're saying since I have similar situation with Ni hero afraid to impose. Perhaps you instinctively know that everyone has their own individuality and whims, even if they don't know about them - just like I understand that everyone has their own will, even if they appear pliant, and I really don't want to infringe on that in any way because I wouldn't like my will being infringed upon. However nowadays I also understand why an ENxP will have a time of their life being forced into all sorts of things by an ESxP with Ni weakling that doesn't take others' will into consideration while making their decisions (Ne blind man) - it's because that Ne hero wants to escape from their Ni nemesis by doing what others want them to do since the one who orders takes all of the responsibility (which is also governed by Ni). It's a temporary release since their wants will eventually need to be addressed but I get why it's so attractive. The proper solution is to be paired with another Ne hero which will figure out another Ne hero's wants and give it to them, even shove the fulfillment of those wants down their throat because Ne hero won't be that concerned about forcing something onto others or manipulating them into it.

But if I'm saying that then why not have all functions be the same? Because Fe-Fe decision making stalemate still happens and having same personalities makes it difficult for partners to find their own niche in the relationship. I've heard very bad things about INFJ-INFJ marriages. Works wonders up to a point and then it breaks completely beyond repair.

Why not pair all functions in completely opposite arrangement (polar opposites and upside down - basically your super ego) then? Because it's your super ego and it shares your personalities. Were there no other personalities involved that would be the perfect match. I could imagine myself trusting in ISTJ's loyalty since they aren't even concerned about what they want to do (Ni blind man would go under the radar of my Ne nemesis). I would eventually agree to lead the relationship but I'd do it in such a way that would have all her needs covered (I'd try to simulate her will for her) and wouldn't abuse her loyalty because if I ever did Fi critic would eat me up. There's a danger Fi critic would eat me up anyway because I wouldn't consider myself worthy of that loyalty (low Ti) but so long as I acted on her Fi child whims I can see it potentially working as far as just the interaction between function is concerned. In real life though it doesn't go well because Si lives in the past while Ni lives in the future, one is sensory the other is intuitive. She wouldn't understand the depth of Ni insights or processes. Add to that the issues that come from sharing personalities, and two ESTPs at that, and you have a power struggle bomb waiting to explode - so she would deny herself fulfilling her ESTP personality's needs and I'd notice it and feel Fi critic guilty about it so just no. Bad idea.

That being said - the mechanism of introverted hero being with extroverted weakling of the same kind WORKS. It just cannot be the N-S functions! N-S functions are the chasis of your being and needs while T-F functions are more akin to limbs, tentacles, wheels, wings for navigating the world and interacting with it. You're just getting more ways to interact with the world with complementary T-F functions. You can do things you couldn't before with those, without the need to change the basis of who you are to accomodate your significant other!
Ne doesn't allow my Ni hero any more freedom, it just an illusion, a wave of magic wand because Ne can forget about responsibility and future but Ni can't! Ni needs to produce a situation in which there are no consequences in order to let itself go. What Ne-Si user would wait for that to happen?

Another, or maybe just expanded, parable came to my mind: imagine Ne-Si chasis as that of a plane and Ni-Se as that of a tank while T-F are weaponry systems that offend different classes of targets (like anti-infantry, anti-armor, anti-air, anti-fortified). Yes it's potentially useful to have air support, even one that can destroy the same targets as you can because, seeing the battlefield from a different perspective, they can open a new way through the enemy line that you couldn't fathom was possible. But a plane flies faster than a tank can ever move and it cannot keep fighting as long as a land vehicle can because being weight limited it needs to resupply more often - it won't be around always when the ground troops need it, at that precise place and time. When things get tough and I have enemies all around me - I'm not going put all my hope and trust in a promise that air support will miraculously show up. I need someone who has my back, right there on the ground, deep in the mud, who I can reach with my shout even when communication devices break. Someone who is locked in the same situation that I am, but has the systems and armaments to detect and obliterate targets that I can't.
Neither can you tie yourself down to a ground unit because you have your limitations and your own hostiles up in the air to worry about.
Did I make myself clear, soldier?



intranst said:


> Fe and Fi are not building blocks, all it does is create unnecessary tension by reading each other wrong.


It's precisely what they are and you need to have both to get the complete picture of reality for yourself! You only get the tension when they are misaligned because it's the negative functions that cause the tension.



intranst said:


> Possibly, but my argument would be that the ENTJ and INFP have connected via Fi which would ideally override any strong need for validation from society.


Even if such a thing as Fi connection exists - while you can override your weakling Te needs with Fi hero (just like I can brute force my Se needs down with Ni willpower) - ENTJ can't! How do you suppose that would even happen? How can Fi weakling overpower Ti nemesis? The nemesis is as strong as the hero! It's not anything like 'well since it's 5th function therefore it's weaker than 4th (weakling)'. No, negative functions exist in counter-space, in the shadow realm but are just as strong as their positive equivalents.



intranst said:


> A person's status has little to no effect on how I view them as an individual and *I expect the same from ENTJ*, which I assume would be the case if they have a shred of Fi in them.


Oh you naive summer child. That's the problem, you expect an ENTJ to act like you just because of Fi (because you're back to your emotional judgement that Fi good Fe bad) but you forget where that Fi lies on their, mental energy spending, priority list and you forget that Ni-Se works in completely different ways than Ne-Si. You're putting yourself in their situation via sympathizing, a simulation and boy do you lack data points for it if that's your conclusion.
Let's translate the functions from ENTJ-INFP *directly* (not mechanism wise, that would be ENTP-INFJ) into INFJ pairing - so polar opposites of parent-child functions and upside down hero-weakling... that would give me an ESFP (Se Fi Te Ni). Having spent some time with my ESTP brother I know better than to expect any degree of decisiveness from Ni weakling - it changes it's mind on a moment's notice - it's basically an Ne in terms of reliability. Yes weakling can be trained and a person can go into aspirational personality through that but that's only in areas of expertise - the default, most time spent mode is still the weakling!
Do you know what's far more likely scenario for an ENTJ, instead of what you expect from them? Drowning that shred of Fi conscience in pursuit of Te status. This will lead them into a midlife crisis eventually when the neglected upside-down personality will forcefully demand it's time in their life but until that happens or until Fe hero pulls their Fi weakling back into focus with it's sheer magnetic pull (and, to be fair, INFP can make a difference too with their blind faith in good in people which can initially sway their heart - only to make it worse later when ENTJ understands that they cannot trust in INFP's determination) - such an ENTJ stays a ruthless predator.



intranst said:


> *I figured the mind game thing was more Se blind not being able to track patterns accurately for inconsistent behavior in people in general* but you do have a point here. Though if I'm right, then INTPs suffer from the same delusion which is not helpful for either.


Seriously, where do you get your understanding of what cognitive functions do from? I thought I explained to you what Se is responsible for. Mastery over physical realm - performing actions with your body among other things. Se does not study patterns of behaviour - were it so it would be ESTPs and ESFPs that are renowned for their knack at psychology. Se tracks movement, physical qualities of an object etc, however the calculation for patterns (pattern recognition) itself is Ni's domain.
Is your apprehension about INTPs suffering from this delusion, whatever it is - I can't tell, alleviated?


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## intranst

ciel sos infel said:


> Seriously, where do you get your understanding of what cognitive functions do from? I thought I explained to you what Se is responsible for. Mastery over physical realm - performing actions with your body among other things. Se does not study patterns of behaviour - were it so it would be ESTPs and ESFPs that are renowned for their knack at psychology. Se tracks movement, physical qualities of an object etc, however the calculation for patterns (pattern recognition) itself is Ni's domain.
> Is your apprehension about INTPs suffering from this delusion, whatever it is - I can't tell, alleviated?


I was more referring to having a balanced Se+Ni. You'll have to bare with me, my understanding of Se isn't the best. I was thinking that Ni was data storage based on the accumulated Se across time, so when they experience something in real time they can make a guess on where things are going, people's intentions, etc.. unless there's no consistency checking at all and all Ni is doing is making guesses but that's not true since it would then have no accuracy, which it does have, hence "tracking."



ciel sos infel said:


> Do you know what's far more likely scenario for an ENTJ, instead of what you expect from them? Drowning that shred of Fi conscience in pursuit of Te status. This will lead them into a middle age crisis eventually when the neglected upside-down personality will forcefully demand it's time in their life but until that happens or until Fe hero pulls their Fi weakling back into focus with it's sheer magnetic pull (and, to be fair, INFP can make a difference too with their blind faith in good in people which can initially sway their heart - only to make it worse later when ENTJ understands that they cannot trust in INFP's determination) - such an ENTJ stays a ruthless predator.


I've listened to ENTJs on YouTube talk about how they don't feel fully heard when discussing their personal feelings with Fe types, though the specific types aren't mentioned. Why do you say that an ENTJ cannot trust an INFP's determination? An INFP wouldn't or more accurately, shouldn't be in a relationship in the first place if that were true. It would likely lead to a break up, which just so happens to be healthy if there is a rift in the relationship and both parties can't come to an agreement.



ciel sos infel said:


> *What Fe type?* That's very important. I've told you, it's all about alignment. And it's not about Fi being healthy or unhealthy as much as it's about it being a hero or not because only introverted hero pays this much attention to those matters because of it's extraverted nemesis.


ESFJ and INFJ, so no INTP. I suppose you win, but it's been a good battle, soldier. And I mean no disrespect by not commenting on your other points. I've gone through them, taking in the info.


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## intranst

On second thought, what I said about Se+Ni didn't make a whole lot of sense, might have to rethink that..


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## ciel sos infel

intranst said:


> I was more referring to having a balanced Se+Ni. You'll have to bare with me, my understanding of Se isn't the best. I was thinking that Ni was data storage based on the accumulated Se across time, so when they experience something in real time they can make a guess on where things are going, people's intentions, etc.. unless there's no consistency checking at all and all Ni is doing is making guesses but that's not true since it would then have no accuracy, which it does have, hence "tracking."


There's more to Ni than this storage capability, I'm sure Si also has some active/calculating use to it. Some might think that Ti would be doing the recognizing of patterns (like as in some sort of logical sequences) but my INTP friend never shown much pattern recognition in the time I spent with him so I'm inclined to believe it's Ni's area. How Ni works then... it's like with intuitive interfaces in applications etc - you do a thing, you get feedback and you do next thing, get similar feedback and after few more tries you can guess what will be the feedback next time or how to navigate the menu to find this or that functionality - things are organized in a pattern that's either repeated or analogous. So I think Ni perceives a pattern and then Ti or Fi tries to explain it within their respective realms or in some other situation Ni perceives a pattern through Se and then Se reacts (like if you're facing an opponent in a duel and notice that he's taking a stance, which, in the biomechanical arrangement you are with him can only lead to a certain follow up action - or because you've seen him do this thing after he takes that stance before or that he always do that when he's frustrated that he can't win - and you can evade or use a technique that defeats that strike).
So Se tracks but it tracks physical phenomena (and those include microexpressions now I think about it so in that regard you're not completely mistaken about it being able to track behaviour in some sense but Se is not the one that figures the emotional background out), other functions track the rest of the picture: Ne tracks intentions, Fe tracks feelings or motivations and Te tracks thoughts or plans.



intranst said:


> I've listened to ENTJs on YouTube talk about how they don't feel fully heard when discussing their personal feelings with Fe types, though the specific types aren't mentioned.


Lot of different Fe out there, yea. I thought about it some more and while proper Fe alignment is paramount there's also the issue of intuition versus sensory and such. I've listened to an INFJ on youtube talk about his failed marriage with an ESTJ and how she was never really into what he was saying. She listened, she suffered through it but the things Ni hero takes into consideration are too far out there for her sensory (more down to earth) mind to process. When I heard that I realized my mother was doing the same thing with me, she tanked the boredom with Si and just let me yap and I imagined that if she's listening she does that because she wants to, eh.



intranst said:


> Why do you say that an ENTJ cannot trust an INFP's determination?


Because of ENTJ's Ne critic they can quickly assume they are going to get backstabbed. An ENTJ won't know your intentions, your determination and if you do anything out of pattern of love that they're expecting (by projecting how they would show their love and dedication - and that's Ni-Se way) they will take a note of that and if that pattern persists (a limit of how long ENTJ will be able to endure it depending on how trustworthy an INFP proved themselves to be up to that point) there are two ways to deal with the mental pressure they are going through (maybe three if you count what I did but that's a very INFJ way to solve the issue).
1. Leave the relationship without bothering to figure out if their hunch is correct
2. Perform a loyalty check which in turn makes INFP feel unloved because their devotion got called into question (and rubbed them the wrong way since with Ni critic they're critical of their own dedication and they need someone to believe in them since they lack that belief on their own)

Real life example, my ENFP ex gf lovebombed me at first and then, when I naively believed that she loves me (like I understand love) and allowed myself to fall in love with her she started growing colder and colder which felt out of pattern and initially set off my Ne nemesis suspicions that I tried to quell, because of my ESTJ (Si-Ne) mother teaching me not to be jealous like my ISTP (Se-Ni) father was. Then there was a week in which she didn't contact me at all except to tell me about how much fun she's having talking with that one guy - and even though I knew about social expectations against jealousy and possessiveness (and wanted to fulfill them because of Fe parent) that didn't help to solve what I was feeling at all. At the end of that week we had a serious talk in which I explained what I'm going through and, though she seemed to understand and agreed with what I was saying, the next day she told me she woke up and realized she doesn't love me anymore. Why? No reason given, but I thought about it for a while and the most important, I think, is that she expected to be believed and I didn't believe her. There was no way I could with what she was doing because that's not a pattern of behaviour I can apply to love, that's not what I expect out of my partner. I cannot comprehend 'love' in categories she did, that wasn't love to me. That's the dissonance between Ni-Se and Ne-Si.

So while it won't be felt as quickly as in Ni dom vs Ne dom there's nothing that seems to indicate that by both INFP and ENTJ having Fi that issue gets solved - if there is tell me but judging from how ENTP-INFJ relationships are going down it's the same even with same judging functions. Even in this thread there were xNxPs complaining about possessive behaviours from xNxJs (you too, as I recall) so it's not a case of me being a weirdo or whatever. Ne-Si needs Ne-Si and Ni-Se needs Ni-Se because the way the users of these functions expect love to work are incompatible between Ne-Si and Ni-Se



intranst said:


> An INFP wouldn't or more accurately, shouldn't be in a relationship in the first place if that were true. It would likely lead to a break up, which just so happens to be healthy if there is a rift in the relationship and both parties can't come to an agreement.


And that part is correct but it takes a whole another meaning after reading my last three paragraphs. Thing is that, since this break up follows from negative cognitive function interactions (so something that is built into us), it's counterproductive to enter that relationship because, when love gets involved, parting ways like this will hurt. A lot.



intranst said:


> ESFJ and INFJ, so no INTP. I suppose you win, but it's been a good battle, soldier. And I mean no disrespect by not commenting on your other points. I've gone through them, taking in the info.


It is a learning experience for me too, if you'd believe that, since wanting to convince you I have to milk new conclusions out of Ni-Ti because I didn't work out every possibility in depth beforehand. I only solved this 'algebraic' problem of 'which set of cognitive functions fits which best' and it doesn't even feel like a solution I've arrived to on my own, because it sorta came to me in a dream (not that I remember anything, I just woke up in the middle of the night and understood it) but maybe that's just how Ni rolls, I don't know (first time that happened to me though).


----------



## intranst

That was a great read, especially the first paragraph, gave me some perspective. I think you're right about Fi/Ti in relation to Ni. Si pretty much just makes you a hoarder lol. I think Fi+Si specifically could also be possessive in relationships because Fi (want) plus Si (object). In layman's terms, Ni wants control over someone's mind and Si wants control over someone's body, in theory, but they both need to learn trust to prevent their respective versions of possessiveness.


----------



## shameless

I do not have the patience to even sift through to see where or who you matched ESTPs with. I tried so fricken hard to read it all. I caught the gist. Could possibly be condensed, categorized, and indexed better. It is not the theory I am arguing, it is the layout. You sorta jump all over. My Ti/Se needs you to break this down in a better layout or design to process it all lol.

I will say I caught this gem...
*"For example ESFP will be better at cooking than ESTP and ESTP will be better at driving - both Se areas but the end result is different because of the difference between Fi and Ti. For INTJ-INFJ example Ni is just a tool and Ti or Fi is the craftsman, there's no redundancy."*

. Eh I will tell ya people would hand over fist pay prefer me to prepare a meal for them as an ESTP over my ESFP sis. My sis is an AWFUL cook, like awful. I assure ya she still is ESFP.


----------



## ciel sos infel

WickerDeer said:


> We already are somewhat interdependent on others. We have mitochondria in our cells that likely came from a different single celled organism (were--at one point) which is why they have a separate set of DNA. So I mean...everything's already sort of like that.


Way off the mark. That myth is about person's other half, not about humanity being interconnected as a giant family or whatever. Those concepts share no relation.



WickerDeer said:


> I can't say I really share your sentiment about the bird that shares wings, except in that I can see how two people can complement each other enough to allow each of them to soar to greater heights than they would alone.


You don't want to feel tied down to another person because you have Ne. Neither will an INTP.



WickerDeer said:


> But I think cognitive functions don't really describe where one wants to go. That is more individual.
> 
> INFPs don't all want the same thing. Neither do ENTJs or ISTPs or ESTPs. It's all more personal, I think.


There are some things that I can't correlate to cognitive functions like, I don't know, some really weird fetishes but there are some fetishes that would follow from cognitive functions and other personalities because they are in essence a way to fulfill some psychological need and a large chunk of those flow from cognitive functions.
For some reason, that's completely incomprehensible for me, I keep getting those comments that 'well type's not everything, everyone's an individual' despite me never, even once, saying that type is all that matters. I've said it's the most important thing, yes, and the reason for that is that there are needs within us that won't change and these are predicated by cognitive functions but time and time again I've said that not every INFJ will fit perfectly with every INTJ, not every INTP will perfectly fit with every INFP but those that fit will fit better than any single other type.
I don't know if it's my Ni's hunch or the naive Fi idealism in my anima but ultimately I'd hope there's actually only one person that's perfect for an individual however I cannot substantiate that in any way. If I waited before I get super complete picture of everything I wouldn't ever be able to share what I found so far and what I got to already is super important.



WickerDeer said:


> So maybe up and down is different for everyone--perhaps up to me is to do art and to be healthy and focus on well being and discover new things, whereas up for an INTP might be to do something completely different. Cognitive functions cannot be solely responsible for where we want to go?


You'll flap your wing and an INTP will flap their wing but your bodies - your basic needs (Ne-Si) - are very similar by default so after a bit of adjustment you'll fly in concord, each pulling their weight in places the other one can't (because you don't have conscious access to Ti and they have but don't have conscious access to Fi while you do in abundance).



WickerDeer said:


> Wouldn't both birds need to at least want to go the same place? I mean, they might not even see the world the same way and so one bird might know of places the other bird doesn't know--if they both could have flown on their own, which we will assume that they can.


INTP will want to follow INFP's Fi in it's areas of decision making and INFP will want to follow INTP's Ti in it's areas of decision making because INTP lacks Fi but will feel super attracted to one that fits their needs (Fi hero) and INFP lacks Ti and will feel super attractive to one that fits their needs (Ti hero) and since you both have roughly the same Ne-Si, yea, you will want to go the same place so long as you're not completely incompatible in other areas (like beliefs, traditions, sexual preferences, yadda yadda yadda).



WickerDeer said:


> idk To me, I was in a relationship with a judger and I found that beneficial in some ways because I don't tend to keep track of things like schedule, and I also don't tend to plan things that well.


Plans are sometimes useful for you, yes, but your default mode of operation isn't to work according to a plan so if you keep living according to a plan for too long it will stiffle you, make you feel caged and trapped.



WickerDeer said:


> If a judger wants to go in the same direction I do, I find them very helpful as they have a set of skills that I don't have that allow them to focus on things I missed.


A judger (Ni-Se) won't want to go in the same direction as you do because you'd be forcing them to rearrange their plans on the fly for longer than they can sustain it. For Si-Ne judger you'll be too unconventional and untraditional for you to fit neatly. You have access to personalities that are more organized (ENFJ-ESTJ) and you get that easier when you're paired with someone that doesn't try to hold you down or force some regulations onto you. Like an INTP, because they have very similar needs to you!



WickerDeer said:


> And I can also help them focus on the smaller things in life they are forgetting to appreciate in the moment.


As a friend, not as a romantic partner in a stable, long term relationship. They cannot appreciate smaller things in life for as long as you can. You're incompatible with them because of that. Both them and you would have to force themselves not to be themselves for longer than they can sustain it in order to live together with you. It's not possible. Such relationship can last, I've seen it in my own parents, but the energy cost is still there and eventually each of youthem need to distance themselves from one another and eventually they might not come back together because of how much distance there is between them now. A couple that plays together stays together - you need to share N-S functions for that.



WickerDeer said:


> I feel like I share a lot of weaknesses that an INTP has or an INFP has, and that we would amplify that. Though there are INFP and INTP that work great together too--it seems more individual than type.


And because you share those weaknesses you understand how that other person can be weak in these areas instead of looking down on them for their incompetency. Silly example: you won't get nagged about having to buy a new set of plates every year because of you dropping them because the other person will drop them too and a new set of plates every year will just be included in living expenses. Do understand that you have other personalities that come into play easier because of those shared weaknesses since there is a niche for them to jump into and fulfill. And you need to live in these other personalities too in order to be fulfilled as an individual because they are you as well! Just like with cognitive functions - in terms of energy expenditure prioritization ego INFP is like hero function, inside-out ENFJ is like parent function, upside-down ESTJ is like child function and super ego ISTP is like weakling function - you need to spend time using all of them in order to be a balanced individual.



WickerDeer said:


> Could it be you are inventing this entire system just to justify your desire to be with an INTJ? When maybe it's just more personal to you?


Tell me, ms. I'm-so-individual-types-can't-predict-me, how is it that you're now trying to rescue your weakling Te from the responsibility of making a judgement of whether to believe my information with a judgement from your Fi hero function like I've told intranst that INFPs have a tendency to do?


ciel sos infel said:


> I don't think it's Te not wanting to waste time - if anything it would be tied to Te weakling's worry whether a person can be believed about this or that, or are they trying to manipulate you since Te weakling, not being very capable with figuring mind games, has to put double the effort and a verification of person's character through Fi would ease some of those burdens.


So now let's think about what you've said.
Am I the one who first proposed 8 function (4 positive 4 negative) system? No, I'm not.
Was I the one who figured out 4 sides of mind (4 personalities/forms) system? No, that wasn't me.
Fact 1: this entire system is not invented by me. I've only understood it when it was presented to me.
Fact 2: logical validity of what I've proposed (whether I'm correct or not) has nothing and I mean absolutely nothing to do with my personal opinions or desires that I'd seek to justify so even if I am trying to justify something (which is not how it went and I'll explain in a moment) it does not matter. My person does not factor into the logic I present in the OP. It is the logic that needs to be debunked, it stands on it's own legs, it doesn't need me. Anyone else can use the same arguments I did and the validity of those arguments IS NOT GOING NOT CHANGE.

Now this you cannot verify but I didn't even know INTJ females exist in real life. Like I've seen traits of that type in some fictional characters and I was attracted to them without knowing much about typology back then, and since I never seen an INTJ woman in the flesh (or haven't talked with one enough to see the similarities) I thought they are a figment of someone's imagination (now that's a Te trickster moment). Since everyone in typology seemed to point to ENFP, ENTP, INFP, INTP I did not even consider INTJ type as a probable candidate and didn't think I'd need to learn about the type or how it's expressed in women (I was set on either INFP or INFJ) so I didn't even come to associate those traits I witnessed in some media with those of a real, existing personality type. Now imagine my amazement when inspired by biblical descriptions of God the Father and God the Son Jesus I realized that Father is an INTJ (that was the first night in a series of several I was waking up in a middle of it with a new revelation) and two night's later I wake up with an idea that INFJ and INTJ would fit together like a glove so I looked at the functions to test if I'm thinking right and compared that to my real life experiences. Then I looked up what character type some of those fictional characters I was infatuated with were and would you believe those just happened to be typed as INTJ. And then I scoured the internets for all I could find on that pairing and I found rather positive comments from people who enganged in those relationships, some without knowing about typology at all when they met and after I couldn't debunk my own idea on my own anymore I decided to reach to people online (only to find out most of them don't have any idea what they're talking about). And here I am.
Ah and I forgot, I'm kinda not even in a situation to enter a relationship right now in the first place so I have no horse in this race.



ciel sos infel said:


> I've known an INTJ who idealized INFJ and would have shared the same desire though he was heterosexual so wouldn't be interested in you.


Well, it still works as friendship.



ciel sos infel said:


> I already said that but I think it's individual and not so much about type. That INTJ also had really weak Te imo compared to other INTJ. You also seem to be less into Fe and more into your introverted functions, like Ti and Ni, but idk. I don't really know you.


Much less from knowing me you don't even know yourself (not in terms of your individuality but in terms of how your mind works), that's the issue here. Everything else I've already explained in prior paragraphs.


----------



## shameless

ciel sos infel said:


> Much less from knowing me you don't even know yourself, that's the issue here. Everything else I've already explained in prior paragraphs.


Woah woah woah, back the fucken bus up a minute. 😮. Damn. That is a really bold thing to say to someone else, in a theory debate. You speak in certainty over a proposed theory you believe. This is an opinion and perception based topic. This diverting onto someone who counters you, by telling them they do not know themselves is incredibly inappropriate.


----------



## ciel sos infel

0.M.I.A.0 said:


> I do not have the patience to even sift through to see where or who you matched ESTPs with. I tried so fricken hard to read it all. I caught the gist. Could possibly be condensed, categorized, and indexed better. It is not the theory I am arguing, it is the layout. You sorta jump all over. My Ti/Se needs you to break this down in a better layout or design to process it all lol.


TL;DR: What I propose is ESTP-ESFP, I call that T/F variant pairing.
Yes I have Te trickster and I've apologized for that right at the start. I'm trying as much I can but there are limits to what I can do. I'll reorganize OP once again when I have the time but that still won't be clear and super easily digestible to most people.



0.M.I.A.0 said:


> I will say I caught this gem...
> *"For example ESFP will be better at cooking than ESTP and ESTP will be better at driving - both Se areas but the end result is different because of the difference between Fi and Ti. For INTJ-INFJ example Ni is just a tool and Ti or Fi is the craftsman, there's no redundancy."*
> 
> . Eh I will tell ya people would hand over fist pay prefer me to prepare a meal for them as an ESTP over my ESFP sis. My sis is an AWFUL cook, like awful. I assure ya she still is ESFP.


Hmm... Well, just because she has a talent for that hidden inside her doesn't mean she has to realize it (my ESTJ mother neglected her ISTP inside-out because my ISTP father did all ISTP things so she never mastered it beyond what she was able to do before she met him). I'll explain why I'm thinking she has a knack for it in a sec.
Maybe mistakenly but I divided people into xNTP-xSFJ-xSFP-xNTJ camp and a xNFP-xSTJ-xSTP-xNFJ camp (because of 4 sides of mind).

So real life examples: I can cook a bit but I don't like to cook. Compared to that my INTP room-mate was much more into cooking than I ever will be.

INTJs seem to like cooking more than other personalities according to this skewed statistic (skewed since it was taken online so most people participating will be those who spend a lot of time online; other personalities might like cooking more but that's not important for this point):


https://www.personality-database.com/profile/105005/cooking-fandom-if-you-like--mbti-personality-type


and INTJs have ESFP personality inside them and I figured that cooking is all about that Se since physical performance and Fi creativity but maybe it's not the ESFP but rather the xSFJ that's responsible for preference for cooking (ESFP have ISFJ inside-out personality, INTJs have ISFJ super ego). I don't understand Si very well so I might have miscalculated.

Looking at some more data, while not very reliable I admit, there seem to be more notable cooks being typed as ESFP than ESTP (although that can be explained with Te seeking fame)


https://www.personality-database.com/profile?pid=1&cid=16&sub_cat_id=875&type1=5




https://www.personality-database.com/profile?pid=1&cid=16&sub_cat_id=875&type1=7



Now to dwarf both of these there's is a lot of ESFJs:


https://www.personality-database.com/profile?pid=1&cid=16&sub_cat_id=875&type1=4


while on the other hand not as many ISFJs (maybe because they don't like to stand in the limelight? I'd guess that in home setting it's the ISFJ that will do the cooking)


https://www.personality-database.com/profile?pid=1&cid=16&sub_cat_id=875&type1=3



On the other hand there's a lot of ESTJs but maybe that has more to do with them being able to shout at people for screwing their job than them enjoying the act of cooking. My ESTJ mom is the family cook but I never found her enjoying it, she's doing it because she considers it her responsibility (she's not experimenting with new dishes, only has a set of meals she cooks and she shuffles around so it's not the same thing every week):


https://www.personality-database.com/profile?pid=1&cid=16&sub_cat_id=875&type1=2


And another point against my idea would be ENFJs which I can't really understand (maybe Fe-Se loop since if everyone likes to eat tasty food then there's a lot of good-boy points to farm and palates to please)


https://www.personality-database.com/profile?pid=1&cid=16&sub_cat_id=875&type1=10


But then there's really not that many INFJs (giving man a fishing rod is more appealing to an INFJ than cooking him a fish I guess):


https://www.personality-database.com/profile?pid=1&cid=16&sub_cat_id=875&type1=9



So there's a possiblity I'm in the wrong about the ESFP cooking thing (but still I suspect that your sister just needs to be around someone she'd feel comfortable enought to explore her ISFJ side) but even if my example missed the mark* the point about Ti-Se being suited for different tasks compared to Fi-Se still stands.* I just have to find a better example to illustrate it.


----------



## ENFPathetic

ciel sos infel said:


> There's more to that than only Fe probably (like ESTPs being good at biomechanics and sex in it's purely physical aspect being all about biomechanics or ENTPs being fascinating bullshitters and women being naive and falling for their manipulations - also both having Te critic are impressive by default because there's this assumption that when someone's criticizing others they are automatically right therefore so smart and high value) but yea, Fe-Ne thing in particular (Fe taking in expectations about what they should like from outside and Ne taking what they should want from outside).
> 
> 
> Again, I think you need Ne-Fe or Fe-Ne for this, Fe alone might not be that pliant.
> There's an old trick that farmers used to get more milk out of cows. You need to have at least two cows at any single time because when one cow sees that other one has food still available she will try to take it for herself and so you can put more fodder into the trough and it'll be eaten even if the cows aren't hungry enough (and then the excess of nutrients gets turned to milk). When I read about one pick up trick that involved first aiming at a woman's girlfriend in order to get her to want to take you away from her I grew disgusted with those types of women.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't put those into the same box. Someone with low Fi might look up to their favourite artist who has high Fi and want some memento. But with celebrity signatures as in "I don't even know if I like them but since they are popular it makes me kinda wanna have their signature" yea, that would probably be it.
> 
> 
> Everyone has their weaknesses, remember? Women with Fi have Te and this can be abused analogously as Fe.
> The thing is it's not about predicting who is a shit person and who isn't but what types flow together with the least wasted energy, and I've concluded that's T/F variant pairing.
> 
> 
> No buts. I have to train my Se to survive in real world so you have to train your Ni to grow into a fine INTJ and tackle big brain stuff.
> If I move away from cognitive functions I'll loose my footing. Reading things like "this function in this place does this" is difficult to digest but at the same time it leaves no place for mistakes. My whole thinking process is wide open for anyone to see and verify my conclusions. I've explained the jargon at the very start (read that ESFJ chart).
> 
> 
> No. That's what I'm against. ENTP-INFJ pairing is like that and those go down as volatilely as they start. It's not like I did some extensive data collection on that but I've heard about several cases of break ups that line up with what I can read from negative cognitive function interaction. If you mean EXACTLY the same judging functions (in the same spot) that would leave me with ISFJ and that might be hot but ISFJs are the largest percentile of female population and INFJs are the smallest percentile of male population - this can't be right - it's like 20 ISFJs for 1 INFJ. Then there's issue of Fe-Fe interaction when deciding on something whim based:
> "So what do you feel like doing?"
> "I don't know, what do you feel like doing?"
> and it goes like this until one forces themselves to be selfish despite not having enough good-boy points farmed (which bleeds energy).
> There's more but there's no need to write it from the start since this question has been answered throughout the thread, like here:
> 
> Also read the chapter called "N-S the same T-F opposite*"*.
> If you still have some other propositions in your mind after that let me know, I'll tell you why they won't work as good as T/F variant pairing.
> 
> 
> Like in terms of personal development you could rely on someone else's introverted function as a makeshift solution, but when it comes to decision making that doesn't really work.
> "What do you feel like doing today?"
> "I don't know, let's ask your sister what she wants to do and let's spend time together"
> "Fantastic idea!"
> But will they invite this Fi sister to the bedroom too?
> On some level you can feed your extraverted function by relying on outsiders but there are also more intimate needs which relate to that Fe-Fi feeding mechanism that can only be properly met by your significant other.
> Consider reading the chapter "Hero-Weakling interaction and deeper look into ENTJ-ENFJ" from OP or at least it's second last paragraph and also "A case against polar opposite Hero-Hero" in it's entirety.
> This is why I'm telling people to read the OP. I've answered most of these questions already in there.
> But I get it that I can be difficult to understand so I'll walk the darn second mile if it's really needed.


Makes sense.

Me and my lady have no issues on knowing what we want. In fact, we have a 1/3s system in place. We spend a third of our time together in my world. A third in her world. And a third meeting half way. It works. But I'm wondering what we're missing out on because neither of us have Fe. Are we already compensating for our lack of Fe with the above system, or is there a weakness in our relationship that I'm not seeing?


----------



## ENFPathetic

intranst said:


> @ENFPathetic You're turning me on...


If we were face to face, you'd probably turn me on too.


----------



## ciel sos infel

X10E8 said:


> Nice thread, interesting responses. Just finished reading it.
> 
> It's very informative. Thank You


Another Ti critic not noticing any errors, good to know.
I'm constantly fishing for more data so if you have experience with INFJs (ideally opposite sex but same sex kinda works too at least for validating the ease of communication and rapport bits).
EDIT: then please share it 
(what were you thinking, me, no wonder you haven't gotten any reply)


----------



## ciel sos infel

ENFPathetic said:


> No. Only fwb or flings. My first relationship was with an istp though and it was a dream and a nightmare at the same time. We constantly cheated, constantly broke up, constantly made up, lost a lot of self respect in the process. Estps remind me of her but a more physically confrontational version. I'll admit. Angry sex is out of this world, and totally worth the cost of replacing mirrors and furniture all the time. I don't know. Maybe all the negatives were down to immaturity(we were in our mid teens).


So at least sex seemed to work, that's very important for me to know. Some people expressed a degree of apprehension about dating their T/F variant because they don't feel that immediate sexual attraction towards them.
ISTP-ESFP pairing will enjoy some positive mechanics of ESTP-ESFP but since the functions aren't in the exact spots they should be there will be more strife.



ENFPathetic said:


> I read the OP. You may on to something. It makes a lot of sense. I think you're a genius. Keep going.


I don't consider myself a genius. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, but thanks. Regardless of agreeing or not it's nice that some people at least understand what I wrote for a change. Again sorry for the difficulties reading it, it was most likely me falsely assuming reader understands what I'm talking about when I haven't made that clear at all (Te trickster).



ENFPathetic said:


> I've always liked being nice to others. Not cleaning though. I hate doing that. Unless I'm doing it for someone I care about. Then I don't mind cleaning. I still don't like it. But I'll do it without dreading the chore. I actually look forward to the smile on my girl's face when she gets up to clean the kitchen only to find it's already been taken care of. I'm not always like this, but the mood has been hitting a lot more often in my current relationship. Is that what the 4 minds essentially are? Our moods? That must be it. What are my other moods?


I forgot to ask: do you like cooking by any chance?
I guess you could consider it some form of moods since the triggers for switching are emotional but I see moods as more fickle things you have no control over. This you can control.
ESFP ego (dominant) Se Fi Te Ni
ISFJ shadow/anima/inside-out (auxiliary) Si Fe Ti Ne
INTJ aspirational/upside-down (situational) Ni Te Fi Se
ENTP super-ego (moral ideal, crisis management and guardian angel when unlocked) Ne Ti Fe Si

So you're like a brother from my ideal match INTJ's family. I'll guess that you're past 30 now so you're probably showing more INTJ traits than earlier (maybe it's even one of the reasons why you changed your mind about promiscuity).



ENFPathetic said:


> Speaking of my current relationship. My missus is infp. What are her moods?


You can figure that out easily yourself, I'll tell you how.
For inside-out you turn introverted functions into extroverted functions and likewise (I call that 'polarity switch')
For upside-down you take the set of the ego and reverse the order of it's functions without any other changes.
And super-ego is the polarity switch of reverse order of the aspirational so... upside-down's inside-out form. If this got confusing just look back at the sets of functions that I wrote out for your 4 sides of mind.


----------



## ciel sos infel

ENFPathetic said:


> I really sympathise with your thinking, but trust me. You don't want a possessive partner. I get that it's really nice to spend a lot of time with a woman you share a connection with, but the cost is way too high. I learned that lesson when my team lost a decisive match in the league because I was up all night chatting with my girl and ended up performing like shit in the game. My boys were pissed, and rightly so.


I appreciate the advice but we're just built differently. We could talk more about it to find how much we differ but since I don't see anyone pushing for Se-Ni + Ni-Se relationships there is no reason to, at least for me.



ENFPathetic said:


> Also, cheating is not going to happen when your girl is there. Even if you get mad horny and your iq drops to the gutter, you can tell your girl that you want her, and you want her now. Go to the nearest reasonably private place you can find(usually a toilet or changing room) and make love. It's not going to happen when your boys are with you either, because they will tell you to fix up and remind you of your values, and if they don't, they're fake and you need to get rid of them.
> 
> It's going to happen when your alone with an attractive woman and you have no one to help you. Which is why you gotta be careful not to get into those situations in the first place by placing the necessary boundaries between yourself and women. Basically what I'm saying is, you can't rely on your girl to keep you in check, because she won't be there when it's most likely to happen. You gotta rely on yourself.


Yea, I get it.
Eh, if only you knew, you'd be asking me for advice instead of giving it, but let's keep it at that.


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## ciel sos infel

ENFPathetic said:


> Makes sense.
> 
> Me and my lady have no issues on knowing what we want. In fact, we have a 1/3s system in place. We spend a third of our time together in my world. A third in her world. And a third meeting half way. It works. But I'm wondering what we're missing out on because neither of us have Fe. Are we already compensating for our lack of Fe with the above system, or is there a weakness in our relationship that I'm not seeing?


You seem to be engaging your ISFJ form in your relationship (I guess INFP's low Si goes under the radar of your Si nemesis for long enough to allow the switch) so it's not like you're not making use of it at all (but isn't it tiring? I can't take Fi hero too long with my Fe parent and ISFJs have Fe parent too). It's just not optimal but you can sorta deal with it through maturity (like you seem to do).
The question is how will your relationship handle stress from life's circumstances (there are many pairings that can work but it's only "it's good when it's good" kinda thing), to what degree it's self reliant in cognitive needs, and how much effort you need to put into it in order to make it work indefinitely (does it give more than it takes - if not the energy to keep it running will have to come from elsewhere).

That being said I've read about an INTJ-INFJ relationship that did things the way I think they need to be done, they had their marriage tested with poverty and all sorts of real life troubles that they braved through together and one day the INTJ half of that equation left. I don't know why. I don't remember if that INFJ wrote why. I cannot imagine why. I'd have to have INTJ's account as well to judge anyway. It terrifies me to be frank. What could've caused this if everything the world had thrown at them didn't separate them and yet something else did.

What I'm trying to say is there's always an element of unpredictability, and I don't want to pull you away from your existing relationship just because the grass can be greener elsewhere. But just in order to satisfy your curiosity I'll throw in a few bits about Fi I've wrote elsewhere ITT (the situation talked about in these are INFP-ENTJ but some mechanisms still apply and need to be mitigated with effort which costs energy):



ciel sos infel said:


> Well, sometimes Fi users can become detached from other people's feelings/values and trample on them, just like Ti model can be detached from real world data and be wrong to a point of endangering human lives if the design ever gets into production.
> 
> (...) that other Fi user has their own selfish desire to be pampered, listened and appreciated for their individuality (known) which you cannot do (from the ego at least (...)). With Fi you can only sympathize - simulate, put yourself in their shoes - completely bypassing their actual individuality, their real feelings! Only Fe can take in Fi as it is, without interference from the self. Only Fe can truly experience another person's Fi.
> In the end Fi strives to be internally cohesive emotion/morality/identity system, based on data points available (and a lot of those data points are provided by Fe mind you, yours or of other people, because the self perceives itself in relation to others through contrast). Even when perfectly cohesive internally it doesn't mean that it's correct by default, always keep that in mind.


And yea, I get it, it's not like you cannot look into their feelings - I can verify another Ti user's logic so Fi can interact with Fi, understanding is possible but it's not flowing effortlessly. It's more like "iron sharpens iron" situation, there are benefits to it, but knife is not meant to cleave into another knife but rather into whatever is getting sliced. There's also the issue of conflicting ideas about where to go with your life - when there's Fe, it will most likely yield to Fi because it's not strong enough to resist it (it can only try to entice it into going the other way). When it's Fi-Fi one day there might come a decision that will cause the pair to go their separate ways (and I've heard that argument being used against Ni-Ni relationships, but it's not Ni that is the decision maker - judging functions are).

I'll post another paragraph from different post below, maybe it'll explain something about issues with having same introverted judging functions better.



ciel sos infel said:


> Remember you need Fe to actually care about what you're talking when you're dumping your pent up emotional loads. Another Fi user won't take you in, they'll flow in their own Fi bubble having their own impressions and emotions about what you're saying just like I, hearing Ti user's idea about how things should be done, have my own ideas in the works. Why is that bad? For example whenever I help my ISTP father with some work he has a tendency to think out loud about how to approach the project, which I used to understand as him fishing for ideas but when my Ti child, eager to speak it's mind, opens up I get shot down immediately, sometimes without my idea being considered at all - just dismissed with a stock phrase, because he already knows better and doesn't even care about what I have to say (and then he has the audacity to complain how I'm never interested in anything we do, how I don't get involved and just wait for commands like a robot). This is how it probably feels for a low Fi user to interact with Fi hero.


Now the thing is, it's not only about Fi-Fe. You have Te-Te situation going on and until you get into your ENTP super-ego (or she into ISTP) the relationship is lacking in logical verification capability department and plans or visions of what to do in realms where going by your feelings gets you nowhere.
I wish I could give some good example of what decisions in life are Ti based but I cannot think about anything now. Hmm, ENTPs are entrepreneurs so maybe things like where to invest your money etc.

Right now the scales of your relationship are tipped heavily towards F side. Maybe you can alleviate it by spending more time in your INTJ aspirational but that too takes a toll on you - and life's not only about feelings, there's a lot of T things that need to be addressed on the daily. My parents screwed up mine and my brother's upbringing because they were both high T. There are consequences to T/F imbalance. You need to keep them in mind and apply effort in order to mitigate them. Over time everything combined piles up until it becomes a burden that can break the relationship. But maybe now that you know what can go wrong you can prevent it easier?


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## ciel sos infel

Added a shortened, succinct version as Chapter 0 for those that might be interested.


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## intranst

I got another one, this will apply specifically to the I-J type combinations of your theory. I would say that people primarily communicate via their extroverted judging function, so when the other person has it as a trickster function, the message will be obscured. Sure, other type combinations will have trouble following this, but can still compensate with shadow functions when necessary. This is not the case with INFJ-INTJ for example, since they both will have only one directional input and output when communicating with each other.


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## ciel sos infel

intranst said:


> I got another one, this will apply specifically to the I-J type combinations of your theory. I would say that people primarily communicate via their extroverted judging function, so when the other person has it as a trickster function, the message will be obscured. Sure, other type combinations will have trouble following this, but can still compensate with shadow functions when necessary. This is not the case with INFJ-INTJ for example, since they both will have only one directional input and output when communicating with each other.


I was a bit confused reading this since I was sure I've already said something like that but that was in a different thread (one I made for INTJ subforum, I think) so good catch. If you're finding stuff out on your own that means you genuinely understood me. That doesn't usually happen, weird feeling. (EDIT: When I'm talking about more complex matters at least, either someone will get me or they will lose patience, here there was a trouble with understanding but eventually it happened and that's not something I've experienced much)

So yea, I even had that sort of situation in real life, only with ISTJ government official. He said something like "you are abnormal" and I just smirked internally because I knew that he meant "your case is unusual". An INTJ girl with a channel on youtube said in one of her videos that she "doesn't mind feminine men", and again, similar reaction, this time a bit of a chuckle since nobody was around (Fe trickster is kind of like a comedic relief character for Fe parent). It was clear to me that she meant that she doesn't care much for machismo types, but I don't think any guy would enjoy being called 'feminine' (unless they're striving for that appeal).
Looking at those examples I think INFJs and ISFJs are naturally equipped to interpret for Fe trickster, so that doesn't only make the communication in relationship easier it also compensates for misunderstandings between INTJ and the others so long as INFJ is around.

Analogous nuances should be present for each of the T/F variant pairings, they just need to be discovered.


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## intranst

ciel sos infel said:


> I was a bit confused reading this since I was sure I've already said something like that but that was in a different thread (one I made for INTJ subforum, I think) so good catch. If you're finding stuff out on your own that means you genuinely understood me. That doesn't usually happen, weird feeling.
> 
> So yea, I even had that sort of situation in real life, only with ISTJ government official. He said something like "you are abnormal" and I just smirked internally because I knew that he meant "your case is unusual". An INTJ girl with a channel on youtube said in one of her videos that she "doesn't mind feminine men", and again, similar reaction, this time a bit of a chuckle since nobody was around (Fe trickster is kind of like a comedic relief character for Fe parent). It was clear to me that she meant that she doesn't care much for machismo types, calling a man 'feminine' is still kinda... depressing.
> Looking at those examples I think INFJs and ISFJs are naturally equipped to interpret for Fe trickster, so that doesn't only make the communication in relationship easier it also compensates for misunderstandings between INTJ and the others so long as INFJ is around.
> 
> Analogous nuances should be present for each of the T/F variant pairings, they just need to be discovered.


I'm not sure if I'd call that comic relief, sounds more like you're using Fe criteria to judge her emotional expression. Looking at the INTJ example specifically here since that's what you're arguing with the theory, another INFJ could have just as easily interpreted what was said in a more negative way. The problem is you're still making an assumption about what she meant, even if it is a likely assumption.


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## ciel sos infel

intranst said:


> I'm not sure if I'd call that comic relief, sounds more like you're using Fe criteria to judge her emotional expression.


It wasn't her individuality coming through but her built in inadequacy, I have the same, just on the T side so I understand how it is. I don't feel intellectually violated when someone points out that what I've said was hard to digest, I can feel annoyed when I'm not getting understood but I'll just try to explain myself another way - *that way that I fumbled expressing my idea is not the idea*, I'm not emotionally tied to the way I organize my presentation or the terms that I'm using or misusing - so it is with INTJ's faulty Fe expression.
And it is funny. Funny not in "haha what an idiot" kind of way but "haha I know what you mean exactly but that can get taken so wrong and just imagining this misunderstanding is making me chuckle". I don't know if I've mentioned it in this thread or another but there's a Japanese comedy routine type called manzai. There's a duo of comics and one (boke) says something totally out there while another (tsukkomi) corrects them or calls them out on it - that's basically Te trickster made into a show. Why do I say this? Because my Japanese teacher straight up called me a tennen boke (natural boke) once so that's how my Te trickster antics get interpreted - that I'm doing the boke act without even trying.
Therefore INTJ's Fe trickster is an equivalent of Te trickster in terms of comedic value. For me that's not a fault as in something that would stand in the way of me loving an INTJ. It's endearing. Maybe you'll say "now you're being patronizing" but you cannot have someone completely perfect at your side when you yourself are imperfect - so there are kinds of faults in human character that can be charming and alluring, approachable - because they make you feel needed and useful, like there's a place for you in their life's challenges, like we make a great team together kind of thing.
Objectively though they are still faults, Fe trickster people can easily make others offended or hurt without even trying. I don't think they're proud of that and consider this an expression of their individuality when they make people feel bad despite their best intentions not to. That's where Fe parent comes in.
EDIT: Btw do you know what my reaction would be in a situation where I'm trying to explain my point to someone that doesn't get me at all, over and over again only for an INTJ to notice the misunderstanding and swoop by explaining my idea in a clear and concise way?
"Thank you, that's exactly what I was trying to say", not "how dare you to infringe on my rights of intellectual expression".



intranst said:


> Looking at the INTJ example specifically here since that's what you're arguing with the theory, another INFJ could have just as easily interpreted what was said in a more negative way. The problem is you're still making an assumption about what she meant, even if it is a likely assumption.


If that's an issue then we have a monumental problem at our hands since most communication relies on such assumptions. When you talk to somebody you don't go asking them "is this what you meant" every sentence they utter. The thing is that with high enough (and even better properly aligned) Fe you can gauge the motivation behind the words spoken so you don't take them the wrong way even if they sound the wrong way. Going back to the ISTJ example I gave I felt no malevolence behind that him calling me abnormal - he wasn't looking down on me, he was just talking about how unusual my case is for him to deal with, basically. He just fumbled with words like an INFP or INTP fumbles with manual tasks.
Although I understand why you'd be worried about my assumptions, since your assumptions in F realm are dictated by Fe nemesis and you can assume the worst motivations outright - Fe parent isn't like that. Sure it can be wrong, but it's fairly reliable.
EDIT: And nothing in the context pointed to her not minding men who like to wear make up and dresses or whatever, she was talking about emotional sensitivity if I remember correctly (but maybe I don't). Anyway the thing is what she said could be interpreted as somewhat potentially offensive or inconsiderate and she didn't mean anything like that by saying this, that much was clear.


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## intranst

Gotcha, makes sense.


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## ciel sos infel

OP is reorganized more comprehensibly (at least I hope so) now, a bit dedicated to INFPs and INTPs has been added as Addendum 3 and with that - version 7.0 has been finalized.
I've included all that I've planned to include, and some things that I haven't as well, so a warm thank you to those who participated (participated - as in not flung shit in their self-righteous indignation or ignorance) and especially to those who sacrificed their time to contest my idea. Some things I've only become aware of after engaging with you, so, even if at times I got annoyed, I appreciate your help.
I'll still watch the thread but I'm starting to suspect I exhausted interest I could gain for my proposition around here so I'll need to think about how to find a wider audience. Getting some talking head on youtube to notice it could spread it fast enough. I don't know. We'll see.


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## intranst

So from my observations Ti doms really seem to value the in the moment warmth that Fe gives off, even if it’s not so apparent. Even E_TPs are more comfortable to them than Fi doms who only want to express emotion on their own terms. Unless any Ti doms out there have anything to expand on that, I’m going to have to stick with my opinion that INFP and INTP is not an optimal match.


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## ciel sos infel

intranst said:


> So from my observations Ti doms really seem to value the in the moment warmth that Fe gives off, even if it’s not so apparent. Even E_TPs are more comfortable to them than Fi doms who only want to express emotion on their own terms. Unless any Ti doms out there have anything to expand on that, I’m going to have to stick with my opinion that INFP and INTP is not an optimal match.


If one T/F pairing works then all work. I thought there maybe might be a difference for personalities outside of INFJ/INTJ personality stacks but the answers I get are very similar "I like my t/f variant very much". That bit remains the same in most cases I've encountered so far (not a huge noumber but I'm not fishing for that data), whether the mechanisms are exactly the same as INTJ-INFJ or moved into different axis. Somehow I didn't have much trouble convincing another ENTJ to try dating an ENFJ (different cognitive function setup - judging functions in different axes than INTJ-INFJ).

Is there anything you particularly dislike about INTPs? Frank James (he's an INFP, not an INFJ) in his video about INTP gf seemed fairly interested in them - it was somewhat of a comedic take on the subject, yes, but he seemed quite fond of the idea.

Just because someone with Fe will value another Fe doesn't change the situation. Te enjoys the company of another Te too, doesn't it? But they don't cleave into one another. Te cannot be sustained by another Te. If you were put on a deserted island with another Te user and couldn't vampirise anyone elses ideas to form your own you'd just be mentally running in circles, repeating the same thoughts until the conversations would become unbearable. Granted, you can jump into shadow but it's still not enough Ti. There are decisions on the daily which require both Ti and Fi, if not for anything else then at least in order not to get swayed by the crowd of lemmings going the wrong way.

Don't analyze how ExTPs would react to Fi hero because it's not the same alignment and because they have a Fi trickster and aren't a reliable source of information on what they like in people. Especially not ESTPs. Sensors will put value in different things than intuitives, they don't give a damn about any daydreaming. Ignore ISTPs unless you ask them about ISFPs and focus just on taking data from INTPs.

EDIT: Remember Plussless from this thread? He didn't protest against high Fi, he just was under the impression that he needs to be with an extrovert and since he didn't write another post I think I convinced him that it's not necessary and even comes at a loss compared to being with an INFP.

EDIT2: I thought I'd add two data points to the pile you're gathering. My ISTP father never engaged with me on an emotional level and neither did my INTP friend of several years. Somehow the warmth of my Fe which can cause strangers to want to tell me about their life's problems didn't work on them.


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## intranst

I think Frank is INFJ, I thought some of his insights leaned INFP myself but it's just his 4w5 influence. I listened to a podcast he did where he talked about identity as an illusion and that seemed more native to INFJ thinking to me. He's also exaggerating for the camera so I would take some things with a grain of salt.

Nah, you'll need the same judging axis even more on a deserted island so you can communicate effectively, that's what same judging axis do. Two Te types will have the common goal of "what works?" I agree about dipping into Ti shadow for more clarity in problem solving but that is secondary. ENTJ-INFP can do some Fe and Ti if need be.

Everything I said about E_TPs is how I believe Ti doms view them, not Fi doms. I could have made that a bit clearer though.

On your last point, I would also argue for the specific orientation of functions. Fe aux is not ideal for Fe inferior while Fe dom is, as long as they have their perceiving functions flipped, ESFJ-ISTP.


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## ciel sos infel

intranst said:


> I think Frank is INFJ, I thought some of his insights leaned INFP myself but it's just his 4w5 influence. I listened to a podcast he did where he talked about identity as an illusion and that seemed more native to INFJ thinking to me. He's also exaggerating for the camera so I would take some things with a grain of salt.


His topics need to be INFJ-like in order to keep the persona going. That's not what you should be paying attention to. In his earlier videos his disorderly room looks very much like a work of high Ne. I don't keep crap lying around. He pays attention to views far more than any other INFJ youtuber I've seen. That's a very likely sign of Te, especially the insecure inferior. And, well this argument might not work for you, but his early haircuts were... attrocious. I wouldn't be able to go before the camera looking like that.
That's a somewhat shallow analysis, there are probably better ones posted somewhere on yt, but he's not an INFJ.



intranst said:


> Nah, you'll need the same judging axis even more on a deserted island so you can communicate effectively, that's what same judging axis do. Two Te types will have the common goal of "what works?" I agree about dipping into Ti shadow for problem solving but that is secondary. ENTJ-INFP can do some Fe and Ti if need be.


Okay my fault, I used the term without explaining what it means again.
Axis is two functions within the same stack. There are two axes in a stack: 1-4 and 2-3 positions. Types with same 'judging axis' would be ENTJ and ESTJ.
Now that has been cleared out let me reply to what I think you've meant - same judging functions.
I've already shown that you don't need same judging functions to communicate effectively - they can be in opposite polarity as long as low Fi is paired with high Fe and High Ti is paired with low Te etc. (but best combinations are hero-weakling and parent-child).
Two Te types will search for solution in what other people are thinking - and there are no other people to ask. You think Ti user doesn't care about "what works?". The fundamental reason for proposing something might be "it makes sense" but if something doesn't work it doesn't make sense doing it.
So you're back at your pick of ENTJ again. Sigh. Is that why you've dismissed my proposition based on some inconclusive opinions from Ti doms that don't actually prove or disprove anything?
Let's look at a comment from an ENTJ:

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/intj/comments/udxdvw/_/i7wkxiw
Nu-uh. I know he said he likes INxPs better but he changes his mind once he realizes that the "Ne way" is also present in them after I pointed that out to him. And just think about it. I wouldn't mind being with an ENTJ if it wasn't for the fact that INTJs exist and I know they are better suited for me. That ENTJ however would mind being with another ENFP so why would the things that really annoy him about ENFPs be solved in INFPs? High Ne is still high Ne.



intranst said:


> Everything I said about E_TPs is how I believe Ti doms view them, not Fi doms. I could have made that a bit clearer though.


No, it's all me this time. I've completely misread that sentence about ExTPs, now that I look at it again.



intranst said:


> On your last point, I would also argue for the specific orientation of functions. Fe aux is not ideal for Fe inferior while Fe dom is as long as they have their perceiving functions flipped, ESFJ-ISTP.


Okay, I can agree that Fe hero will work better with Fe weakling than Fe parent will, though I'm not sure if that's a difference which would really break the communication but again - functions on same axis do communicate better. Unfortunately we return to INFJ-ENTP dillema and that is Ni-Ne incompatibility. I cannot stomach avoidant attachment style and that's high Ne - especially Ne hero's doing.


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## intranst

ciel sos infel said:


> Two Te types will search for solution in what other people are thinking - and there are no other people to ask. You think Ti user doesn't care about "what works?". The fundamental reason for proposing something might be "it makes sense" but if something doesn't work it doesn't make sense doing it.


Fair.

You literally just used an opinion from an ENTJ to knock the "inconclusive opinions" I've observed from INTPs. I personally don't think ENFP and ENTJ are a good match either. ENFP and INFP are very different, that's why you don't see a lot of ENFP-INFP or ENTP-INTP relationships, at least I don't. The poster to me doesn't have much experience with IN_Ps to be really conclusive, it's just a vent about ENFPs for the most part.



ciel sos infel said:


> Okay, I can agree that Fe hero will work better with Fe weakling than Fe parent will, though I'm not sure if that's a difference which would really break the communication but again - functions on same axis do communicate better. Unfortunately we return to INFJ-ENTP dillema and that is Ni-Ne incompatibility. I cannot stomach avoidant attachment style and that's high Ne - especially Ne hero's doing.


I'm not sure about that, I see Ni doms typically enjoying the idea generating and engaging the topic switching of Ne doms, perhaps because it helps get them out of their tunnel vision. Again, they have to share judging functions, ENFP-INFJ might be one of the worst pairings of all tbh.

Lol maybe I'll check out this argument about Frank James's hair.


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## ciel sos infel

intranst said:


> You literally just used an opinion from an ENTJ to knock the "inconclusive opinions" I've observed from INTPs.


I've used the opinion from an ENTJ to show you that Ni seeks different things from their romantic partners than Ne and that includes ENTJs. But maybe you're right by using those quotation marks here. I wrote that "inconclusive opinions" bit before I went back to reread that sentence I got wrong and forgot to edit it.
What exactly were you asking those INTPs about? What things made you think that they don't appreciate high Fi (or more specifically Fi hero)?
Maybe I'll do a poll on INTP subreddit so we can get some wider data on how INTPs feel about INFPs, the sample from this thread is not enough, even if it is overwhelmingly positive.



intranst said:


> I personally don't think ENFP and ENTJ are a good match either. ENFP and INFP are very different,


Not that different and not in the things that mater to high Ni.
This video from 3:50 to something like 7:10 aptly describes how Ne acts in INFPs.




I wouldn't be fond of my special someone disappearing for two days without a word. This is a basic incompatibility in our ways of living, xNxJs have to force themselves to tolerate that behaviour. It's not fun to have to figure out if I'm being dumped already or maybe not just yet.



intranst said:


> that's why you don't see a lot of ENFP-INFP or ENTP-INTP relationships, at least I don't.


The reasons why you don't see those relationships that often is because you don't see INFJ-ENFJ relationships that often either. It's like dating yourself but a version of yourself that makes you insecure about not being able to do what they can do and uncomfortable because the way they do the things they do is often annoying since you wouldn't do them that way. The functions are the same just with a bit of reshuffling (high functions remain high and low functions remain low), the niches overlap right from the get go.



intranst said:


> The poster to me doesn't have much experience with IN_Ps to be really conclusive, it's just a vent about ENFPs for the most part.


The poster hasn't spoken about his experience with INxPs so I don't know how you're divining that. While it is a vent about ENFPs it focuses on their approach to love and that is avoidant attachment style. If you feel the chase is over and your partner is head over heels for you, it makes you want to distance yourself, run away. It's stifling and that's a high Ne thing.



intranst said:


> I'm not sure about that, I see Ni doms typically enjoying the idea generating and engaging the topic switching of Ne doms, perhaps because it helps get them out of their tunnel vision.


It's fun for a while, it's fun for conversations too until you get invested into a subject and want to dig deeper and Ne user gets bored. It works for friendships without much commitment and expectations but anything beyond that - Ne nemesis activates.



intranst said:


> Again, they have to share judging functions, ENFP-INFJ might be one of the worst pairings of all tbh.


Same judging functions don't solve Ni-Ne incompatibility. Read this OP:








[INTJ] - INTJ+ENFP = Disaster waiting to happen...


It's an illusionary relationship, it only appears awesome. The ENFP + INTJ find each other fascinating and can talk endlessly (hence why we work so well online). But whenever an ENFP + INTJ start doing stuff together over a prolonged period of time and start to get close, they will scrutinize...




www.personalitycafe.com







intranst said:


> Lol maybe I'll check out this argument about Frank James's hair.


This is the hairstyle I was referring to. It's so petty of me but, just no...


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## intranst

ciel sos infel said:


> What exactly were you asking those INTPs about? What things made you think that they don't appreciate high Fi (or more specifically Fi hero)?
> Maybe I'll do a poll on INTP subreddit so we can get some wider data on how INTPs feel about INFPs, the sample from this thread is not enough, even if it is overwhelmingly positive.


I didn't ask them, it was just from random observations, like an INTP in a video said they specifically felt uncomfortable around the INFP in their group that also consisted of INTJ, INFJ, and ENFJ. In another video of a YouTuber I enjoy listening to, Skimmerlit (INTP), he too talked about feeling uncertain around INFP's "emotionally spiky" energy (not necessarily referring to negative reactions). He spoke about seeing INFPs hesitate before speaking which made him nervous since he didn't know which connections they were making (Ne aux). His nervousness is almost certainly about being unable to track Fi consistently, and the talk about energy leads me to believe that INTPs do care about Fe (known emotional atmosphere) that INFPs can't keep up with for long without feeling stifled. I'd definitely be interested in your findings on Reddit if you do make a poll, hopefully you'll get that brutal INTP honesty without any Fe softening.

The girl in that video is talking about INFP-INFJ incompatibility specifically, even if she's discussing P vs J. Of course she's gonna feel controlled by Fe. At least with another Fi she can say how she wants to do this or that freely and then the other Fi can decide if they mind or not. Again, the emphasis is on ease of coordination due to similar judging functions. Another Fi will definitely be confronting her if it's a problem for the relationship. If she's going days without discussing her wants/needs when they run contrary to another person's, that is toxic behavior for a relationship period. Besides, people have to compromise to an extent for every type of relationship, if you don't want to adapt at all then don't bother with them.

I wouldn't say avoidant attachment is specific to Ne types, I know ENTPs who are very attentive to everyone in their life (tertiary Fe?). Not sure how that plays out for INTPs, but ENFP and INFP end up doing their own thing a lot due to high intuition and unvalued Fe. Turns out, INTJ and ENTJ also have high intuition and unvalued Fe, so they could just as easily be caught up doing their own thing. Coordination between the types is key, though my argument here is admittedly kind of weak.



ciel sos infel said:


> Same judging functions don't solve Ni-Ne incompatibility. Read this OP:


Here it is primarily the OP complaining while other posters disagree, I know since I commented on it. I think at this point we are just pulling examples to fit our respective narratives.

And a word on Frank, his body language is slightly rigged and abrupt which I typically see in low Se but I guess that's nitpicking too.. The Skrillex haircut is a classic.


----------



## ciel sos infel

intranst said:


> I didn't ask them, it was just from random observations, like an INTP in a video said they specifically felt uncomfortable around the INFP in their group that also consisted of INTJ, INFJ, and ENFJ.


Did he explain why?



intranst said:


> In another video of a YouTuber I enjoy listening to, Skimmerlit (INTP), he too talked about feeling uncertain around INFP's "emotionally spiky" energy (not necessarily referring to negative reactions). He spoke about seeing INFPs hesitate before speaking which made him nervous since he didn't know which connections they were making (Ne aux).


And that one makes no sense because Ne aux should be able to read intentions as well as Fe aux can read motivations.



intranst said:


> His nervousness is almost certainly about being unable to track Fi consistently,


Hmm, well inferior Fe is insecure but when I compare this situation to my inferior Se I don't feel threatened by Si hero's loyalty, I feel threatened by Si inferior - insecure about it's loyalty. I cannot make sense of this.



intranst said:


> and the talk about energy leads me to believe that INTPs do care about Fe (known emotional atmosphere) that INFPs can't keep up with for long without feeling stifled.


INTP's Fe will have short spikes in intensity, for most of the time it's going to be as unimposing as Fi. Compare INFJ to ESTP in terms of oppressiveness that their Se give, it's an analogous difference.



intranst said:


> I'd definitely be interested in your findings on Reddit if you do make a poll, hopefully you'll get that brutal INTP honesty without any Fe softening.


My threads get automatically deleted a lot so I don't know if it'll work out but I'll try tomorrow or soon enough.



intranst said:


> The girl in that video is talking about INFP-INFJ incompatibility specifically, even if she's discussing P vs J. Of course she's gonna feel controlled by Fe.


Yes but that's not important for what I'm trying to show you. I pointed you to specifically look at that Ne motivated behaviour - that need to go out and vanish.



intranst said:


> At least with another Fi she can say how she wants to do this or that freely and then the other Fi can decide if they mind or not. Again, the emphasis is on ease of coordination due to similar judging functions. Another Fi will definitely be confronting her if it's a problem for the relationship. If she's going days without discussing her wants/needs when they run contrary to another person's, that is toxic behavior for a relationship period.


Look at that ENTJ's comment and tell me how do you think he would react to that sort of behaviour? My guess is that he would confront the problem faster and they would go their own ways or she'd have to stop doing that which would become stifling for her. We return to the requirement of sacrifice to make Ni+Ne work, the sacrifice which is completely unnecessary because Ni can be with Ni and Ne with Ne.



intranst said:


> Besides, people have to compromise to an extent for every type of relationship, if you don't want to adapt at all then don't bother with them.


Sacrificing on your fundamental psychological needs is unreasonable to say the least.



intranst said:


> I wouldn't say avoidant attachment is specific to Ne types, I know ENTPs who are very attentive to everyone in their life (tertiary Fe?).


Being attentive to everyone in their life doesn't translate into devotion that INxJs crave. I haven't looked at ENTP-INFJ extensively but C.S. Joseph has been through several relationships with INFJs and in the end decided to marry an ESTP. Maybe because an ESTP wouldn't be as jealous and anxious about his devotion. He even recalled one story in which he got cheated on out of jealousy by an INFJ, I think I've mentioned it already somewhere ITT. I don't need that much support from real life examples because I can see that in my model. Ne hero causes Ne nemesis to go into batshit crazy overdrive. Sharing judging functions plays no role in this. Why didn't same judging functions allow that ENTJ to enjoy that ENFPs avoidant antics?



intranst said:


> Not sure how that plays out for INTPs, but ENFP and INFP end up doing their own thing a lot due to high intuition and unvalued Fe. Turns out, INTJ and ENTJ also have high intuition and unvalued Fe, so they could just as easily be caught up doing their own thing. Coordination between the types is key, though my argument here is admittedly kind of weak.


It's a different intuition between xNxPs and xNTJs and that's the crucial bit. xNTJs actually seem to value Fe quite a bit, I'll quote one of that ENTJ's later posts: "But this is an interesting theory and definitely makes me want to grab hold of one of them *ENFJ warm bubble of light and love cuties*. Hehe. I like ENFJ women. Really cool people, very sorted, very dependable generally."



intranst said:


> Here it is primarily the OP complaining while other posters disagree, I know since I commented on it.


I haven't read the whole thread but your statement is demonstrably false. *Some *disagree but just on the first page you have 7 people liking it (8 minus yours truly), cyamitide agreeing and providing additional explanations, Word Dispenser sorta disagreeing but actually defeating her own point because of that sacrifice she had to take in order to keep being with her INTJ, etranger probably tries to justify lost time and effort after break up, Nafatali (ENFP) sacrificing a lot again just being less honest about it, Le Beau Coeur (or something) talking about 'long lived happy marriages' he has seen but not giving any details - maybe it's a marriage just as long lived and 'happy' as my ESTJ-ISTP parent's marriage (I'll quote my mother again "It may look good on the outside but it really isn't"), Ecoas evades with 'there are no perfect pairings' ignorance but he actually agrees about Ne+Ni conflict - he just doesn't understand that INFJ+INTJ actually works and solves that dilemma, MuChApArAdOx (ENFP) stating that INTJ doesn't try to fix her - so it's likely that he just gave up on his needs because due to his lack of understanding he grew to accept that this is how love needs to be.
ENFPs can easily lie to themselves and to others, and in the first place they aren't very reliable source on information about how happy their INTJ partner actually is with them.

There is a quitet tragedy hidden behind every sorta successful Ne+Ni marriage and that is that those people don't even understand that this is not how it needs to be. That they don't have to sacrifice on their psychological fulfillment just to finally stop being so desperately alone. That there is a far better option. That they don't have to rely on an ENFP taking interest in them in order to maybe have a chance at happiness. I don't know if you understand how lonely INTJs get, how horrified, that they won't find anyone, they might be - this can break a person and their values. Lot of them either autistic or are seen as autistic and unsociable. They can end up feeling like no one is going to love them ever. You wouldn't have threads like this one being made if that weren't the case:

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/intj/comments/udxdvw

Both INTJs and INFJs are rare, very rare and we don't meet that many people either. There was maybe one INTJ girl in my college class but at that time I was already hopeless and broken. I decided that if I have to go through that avoidant Ne nightmare again then I'd rather be alone. I didn't know any better then so now I'm sharing what I came to know.

Because of rarity and ignorance of INTJ+INFJ being a possibility in order to blow my proposition out of the water with cases of 'successful' ENFP+INTJ marriages every case of 'successful' ENFP+INTJ marriage would need to be tested against 'successfulness' of the same INTJ in a relationship with an at least moderately healthy INFJ. I don't think that's very doable.



intranst said:


> I think at this point we are just pulling examples to fit our respective narratives.


There's always some bias that we both have to account for. That's why I wanted people to argue with my logic, not my examples, but unfortunately not that many people even understand the mechanisms that I'm basing my solution on.


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## ciel sos infel

Also one more thing @intranst
Direct mechanical translation (as in opposing polarity functions in 1-4 and same functions but upside down in 2-3) of INTJ-ENFP relationship for INFP would be INFP-ESFJ(Fe-Si-Ne-Ti). Does that solve the problems of your Fe nemesis? It doesn't solve the problems of Ne nemesis, I can tell you that:
"Oh wow I'm in the early stages of ENFP/INTJ and I get what you mean. *I'm holding back my possessiveness heavily* because I know it doesn't quite work to be possessive but at the same time *I can't help feel what I feel*."
source:

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/intj/comments/udxdvw/_/i6l6vi2

I'll repeat: the pairings you propose (ego + shadow's T/F variant) rely on one part or both denying themselves what they mentally need. That requirement of sacrifice isn't present in T/F variant pairing I'm describing. There are no flaws from a 'psychomechanical' standpoint - every preprogrammed need gets fulfilled at no cost of negative function interference.

Direct translation of INFP-ENTJ relationship for an INFJ would be INFJ-ESFP. If it weren't for the fact that I already know what high Se and low Ni does I would struggle to see the problem on the function level alone. I'd think that I can live with only middle functions causing problems since it's Ne that I worry about the most. I even remember that I was initially fascinated by my ESTP brother so for INFP-ENTJ it's that fascination combined with erotic pull from the middle functions. The problem is that fascination wears off when you finish your mentorship and want to have your own psychological needs met (and Te can't fulfill another Te, they compete for the same resource) and your middle functions come with the built in problem of negative functions doubling up on themselves. I'll repeat that OP I linked. It's an illusory relationship. It seems good but the good parts wear off and you're left with only erotic pull plus the bad parts - negative functions fueled incompatibilities.

Think about it. N-S functions in opposite polarities give erotic attraction, T-F functions in opposite polarities give romantic attraction. Which should be stronger? Which should be the default state you can always fall back on? Sexual attraction or romantic attraction?
You cannot have both have the same strength because you either end up with ego-shadow (INFP-ENFJ) and there are problems on every level of interaction (and personalities overlap) or you end up with ego-super-ego (INFP-ISTP) which means you look at the world so differently it's like you live in a different realities and you cannot comprehend each other nor do you care about same things - you don't really have much in common or things to talk about (and personalities overlap).


----------



## intranst

I couldn’t find the first video that I was referencing.

I think Ne aux is good at reading intentions of types with same judging functions.

The inferior function is called aspirational for a reason, they strive to use it better, saying INTP’s Fe is unimposing doesn’t give much credence to pairing them with an Fi type since it (Fe) will be trying. I can only see it annoying INFP in the long run same with Te and INTP.

I know your argument about function order but I think perceiving doms operate different than judging doms, just from how I see type relations play out practically. INFJ-ESFP, ENFP-ISFJ? Who’s in these relationships? You never see them.

Going out to smell the roses all the time isn’t such a need that there shouldn’t be some compromise if they want to keep their relationship. The word coordination comes to mind again, if ENTJ doesn’t want to deal with it then they break up, which is healthy if there’s no compromise.

About that ENFP-INTJ thread, maybe I’ll reread it, I think I commented on a few of those kinds of threads, was curious about INTJ-INFP compatibility.

I’m not the most up to speed on CSJ’s theory or the function order in Socionics. I just argue with my understanding of the functions definitionally and how I see them play out.


----------



## ciel sos infel

Okay, made the post. Let the games begin:

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/INTP/comments/upezfj
If you have propositions for questions (maybe mine aren't reflecting the issue that you worry about?) tell me and if it makes sense to do so I'll edit the post.



intranst said:


> I think Ne aux is good at reading intentions of types with same judging functions.


That INFP, who's video blog I've linked, seemed to figure out that INFJ pretty well. Fe aux isn't limited to figuring out motivations of people with Fe - I've given you an example before of two girls INFP and INTJ(?) being amazed how their INFJ friend (not sure of their sex, don't remember) was able to read them, like telepathically guess their feelings. If Fe picks up motivations of people with different function set just as well I don't see why it should be different in the case of Ne.



intranst said:


> The inferior function is called aspirational for a reason, they strive to use it better, saying INTP’s Fe is unimposing doesn’t give much credence to pairing them with an Fi type since it (Fe) will be trying. I can only see it annoying INFP in the long run same with Te and INTP.


I don't know what is the exact limitation (whether it's area of proficiency, or energy expenditure to keep that performance up or both) but it's still inferior function most of the time. My default state won't be ESTP, I cannot hold it up for very long. INTP won't remain ESFJ that long either. That's the trick. There is magnetism between Fe hero and Fi hero, a fiery attraction does happen between the two, it just needs to be applied in limited doses. I won't mind ENTP that's inside INTJ woman because I know that if things get above my Ne tolerance levels she'll get back to her Ni dom self.



intranst said:


> I know your argument about function order but I think perceiving doms operate different than judging doms, just from how I see type relations play out practically.


I'm interested in examples of that if you can recall any.



intranst said:


> INFJ-ESFP, ENFP-ISFJ? Who’s in these relationships? You never see them.


I've told you that's only a direct mechanical translation of INFP-ENTJ. I've tried to simulate how I would feel about an ESFP and I think I know why you can't easily let go of ENTJ. You don't see the danger as immediately as it is when nemesis function's peace is at stake. Direct mechanical translation of INFJ-INTJ would be INFP-ISFP btw and at least according to WickerDeer that's too much Fi "too much idealism" or something like that. She was talking about ESFP not ISFP but ISFP would only be worse in that category.



intranst said:


> Going out to smell the roses all the time isn’t such a need that there shouldn’t be some compromise if they want to keep their relationship. The word coordination comes to mind again, if ENTJ doesn’t want to deal with it then they break up, which is healthy if there’s no compromise.


We're not talking about what's possible 'as long as there is compromise', we're talking about what is optimal - what requires the least compromises to work. Three ENTJs I've randomly met and I've talked to so far offered no resistance to my proposition after me explaining how Ne acts in love and what needs does it have compared to Ni. When they realize the baggage it comes with, ENTJs aren't very fond of high Ne either, and it fits with their negative functions.



intranst said:


> About that ENFP-INTJ thread, maybe I’ll reread it,


No, not 'maybe I'll reread it'. You're not saving your face on this one. Admit that you were wrong about painting it as one sided discussion as in everyone or most people disagree with OP's conclusion.



intranst said:


> I think I commented on a few of those kinds of threads, was curious about INTJ-INFP compatibility.


Ultimately same problems as with ENTJ-INFP. Maybe it'll break apart slower because negative functions that conflict aren't perfectly aligned (but it's still not an alignment that solves the problem, only remits it a little) but at the same time it's not as attractive because functions are misaligned. Just saying.



intranst said:


> I’m not the most up to speed on CSJ’s theory or the function order in Socionics.


I don't do Socionics and I don't think CSJ does either. He changed some details but the theory (8 functions, 4 positive 4 negative) is the work of Dr John Beebe. I have no idea who came up with 4 sides of mind though.



intranst said:


> I just argue with my understanding of the functions definitionally and how I see them play out.


You've got the definitions wrong several times already so that part doesn't really work out and as far as how you see things play out - I need to hear more on that because in case of INFP-INTP you've rejected my proposition based on 3 cases that weren't even you interviewing someone and asking them about exactly what happened and why. There's been similar count of people in this thread saying that they don't mind xNFP-xNTP interactions. You have to know the reasons why someone is saying something. For example on reddit I've encountered two women 'INFJs' that said they aren't jealous or possessive at all about their ENFP partners so I dug deeper. One got immediately angery and refused to answer any questions and displayed behaviour after behaviour that was untypical of INFJ and the other answered two questions in a way that she most likely didn't have Se inferior and her values were internally derived (Fi) and refused to answer the final question which would clearly show whether she has Ne or Ni. Very likely cryptoINFP.
I find confirmations for possessive and jealous behaviours in xNxJs however when I explain the incompatibility of Ne and Ni to them. They just think they have to give up on their needs, that there's no other option - and then I give them that option and so far I haven't seen any disagreement expressed, except for some downvotes which just as well might be xNxPs seeing their dream of financial security slither out of their grasp or cryptoINFPs believing that they're a special subtype of INFJ that doesn't act like INFJ at all because they're so special and unique uwu - sorry for the venom, poeple on INFJ subreddit rubbed me the wrong way, but what I mean by this is that I cannot verify downvotes (the reason behind them) so I don't consider them any valid source of information.


----------



## intranst

Thread looks good, and looks like you got a lot of traction. Majority seem to only dislike INFPs when they're being overly sensitive. I appreciate the read, I'll check back for more comments.

I say higher Ne is focused on intent of same judging functions since Ti or Fi is also higher in the Ne user.

Fe and Fi doms are only attracted to each other because they think the other is using _their_ function. When Fi saves face for someone, the manifestation reads as Fe but it's not, because it's tailored to a specific person's Fi. Fi doms naively believe that Fe doms are authentic in their emotional expression, Fe doms naively believe Fi doms are just as concerned about the _general_ emotional atmosphere. I would say this is different with perceiving doms in opposition (Ne/Ni) since it's just how the individual takes in information, that's why same judging functions and opposing perceiving functions (INFP-ENTJ) are a good match, so both types can gain more perspective all while reading each other accurately by use of the same judging functions. Though like your theory, I'm only vouching for a specific orientation.

I'll try and address more of what you wrote in a bit.


----------



## intranst

More on Fe, yeah it'll be good at picking up emotional nuances especially when paired with Se, making the NFJs particularly hyper vigilant about subtle displays of emotion like tonal inflections and body language. I'm not sure how accurate I can take your feedback about the INTJ and INFP though because I've had INFJs, ENFJs, and ENTPs misread me before because it seems that intuitives who overly focus on Fe are bad at taking what is said at face value, which is how I feel listened to. This type of thing tends to stick with me, though I have a hard time remembering examples in detail, I just remember it being interpreted differently. I do recall one instance where I made a comment on something for the sheer purpose of making the comment and the INFJ took the comment and interpreted it as a question I was asking her to do something for me. That type of thing is particularly off putting when I purposefully try not influence my statements with mixed emotions when I don't want it to come across as anything more than me expressing an opinion. This of course isn't any evidence to disprove your theory because I have not experienced anything of the sort with INTPs. Just some extra thought..



ciel sos infel said:


> No, not 'maybe I'll reread it'. You're not saving your face on this one. Admit that you were wrong about painting it as one sided discussion as in everyone or most people disagree with OP's conclusion.


I reread the thread, and yeah, I was wrong to think most disagreed when there wasn't a clear win or loss with the argument. Those already in ENFP-INTJ relationships were likely to defend their relationships. I kind of weened off the INTJ-INFP idea since inferior Se could be hitting INFPs trickster as it tries toward development, which I view as less of a problem with more confident tertiary Se. This has been my experience with my INTJ brother.

I understand the functions fairly well, at least well enough to give my arguments some theoretical validity. I will admit that you have me beat on concrete examples. I definitely can't see being with ENTP where Fi is trickster and if INTPs do prefer ExTPs as company, this leads me to think that they prefer more Fe in their interactions, hence INFP is not a good match for them. I suppose a good question to ask is how INTPs view ExTPs in comparison to INFPs.


----------



## Inveniet

@*ciel sos infel* There is some merit to this theory, though I wouldn't call it perfect, I can see how that would make a stable family unit.
I have an ISTP father and we usually manage to see eye to eye eventually, though there is a lot of issues that get sparked when other people enter the equation.
But that would be true with any type combo I guess, I think every theory on relationship based on such things will be a tradeoff, 
and you have pointed out some very compelling things here.


----------



## ciel sos infel

Inveniet said:


> @*ciel sos infel* There is some merit to this theory, though I wouldn't call it perfect, I can see how that would make a stable family unit.
> I have an ISTP father and we usually manage to see eye to eye eventually, though there is a lot of issues that get sparked when other people enter the equation.
> But that would be true with any type combo I guess, I think every theory on relationship based on such things will be a tradeoff,
> and you have pointed out some very compelling things here.


It is perfect within the bounds of what's possible, in my estimation, and if you can propose something better then I'm eager to hear it. That being said I'm focusing on cognitive function interaction and this doesn't take into cnsideration stuff like thinkers who neglected their emotions their whole life and down want anything to do with those because emotions are so unreasonable or whatever. But that's a personal issue of that particular thinker, they would actually benefit a lot from allowing a feeler to help them get in touch with their emotions - that leads to a more balanced, healthier psyche. They actually need it, they just don't know it yet but that dismissal can break T/F variant relationship, I've seen several cases of that already.

Now the question is should that imbalanced thinker find someone who won't mind it that much, brushing the issue under the carpet only for it to come back to haunt the thinker in their later years or should that thinker balance themselves out?
I asked the question in a very biased manner but that's because one answer is obviously mistaken.


----------



## Inveniet

ciel sos infel said:


> It is perfect within the bounds of what's possible, in my estimation, and if you can propose something better then I'm eager to hear it. That being said I'm focusing on cognitive function interaction and this doesn't take into cnsideration stuff like thinkers who neglected their emotions their whole life and down want anything to do with those because emotions are so unreasonable or whatever. But that's a personal issue of that particular thinker, they would actually benefit a lot from allowing a feeler to help them get in touch with their emotions - that leads to a more balanced, healthier psyche. They actually need it, they just don't know it yet but that dismissal can break T/F variant relationship, I've seen several cases of that already.
> 
> Now the question is should that imbalanced thinker find someone who won't mind it that much, brushing the issue under the carpet only for it to come back to haunt the thinker in their later years or should that thinker balance themselves out?
> I asked the question in a very biased manner but that's because one answer is obviously mistaken.


I guess, that is more an enneagram problem at the end of the day, being too low on the mental health levels for there to be any hope reaching them.


----------



## ciel sos infel

intranst said:


> Thread looks good, and looks like you got a lot of traction. Majority seem to only dislike INFPs when they're being overly sensitive. I appreciate the read, I'll check back for more comments.


Too good. Now my notification page is full of unread posts and I feel the need to answer them all.
Honestly I expected far less negative comments but I guess with INFP women there is more of a tendency to overuse their Fi and with INTP men there's a tendency to underuse their Fe - but both are unhealthy approaches.



intranst said:


> I say higher Ne is focused on intent of same judging functions since Ti or Fi is also higher in the Ne user.


Hmm. Maybe to some extent. I don't know enough to outright reject it and it would make some sense. It didn't change much in case of that ENTJ though.



intranst said:


> Fe and Fi doms are only attracted to each other because they think the other is using _their_ function.


Is that why Ne and Ni doms are attracted to each other too? It dont think it works that way. There is magnetism there, even when it's coloured with fear - that's the reason for attraction. I'd say that if anything it's Fi hero and Fe weakling that might get 'attracted' (or rather get a feeling of security) because of that confusion. This example works best for me since I'm a Ni dom but it's all analogous - Ni weakling is so indecisive it can seem like a Ne. It's the inferior function that can pass off as the opposite polarity from my experience.



intranst said:


> When Fi saves face for someone, the manifestation reads as Fe but it's not, because it's tailored to a specific person's Fi. Fi doms naively believe that Fe doms are authentic in their emotional expression, Fe doms naively believe Fi doms are just as concerned about the _general_ emotional atmosphere.


Not Fe dom but what attracts me to Fi users is their individuality, that sense that they need someone to take care of them emotionally - that they might appreciate it, not their apparent concern for general emotional atmosphere. Maybe I'd change my mind if an ENFJ echoed your view but I'm not buying it. In the first place you're talking not about attraction but a perceived sense of security through similarity - these are different topics.



intranst said:


> I would say this is different with perceiving doms in opposition (Ne/Ni) since it's just how the individual takes in information,


Can you say what makes it different then? I can't see the difference in how 'psychomagnetic' attraction works.



intranst said:


> that's why same judging functions and opposing perceiving functions (INFP-ENTJ) are a good match,


And why that is when Ne in same position still causes Ni to feel threatened?



intranst said:


> so both types can gain more perspective all while reading each other accurately by use of the same judging functions.


Except they're not because both Fi remain in their respective worlds and Ne doesn't understand the needs of Ni and even when it decides to accept them - they are still stifling. The only good part about this relationship is the mentorship - ENTJ looks up to INFP prowess of Fi and emulates it and INFP looks up to ENTJ's command of Te and emulates it. What happens though when the training ends and both people are left with someone who isn't hungry for their Fi because now both have it in abundance? What happens to those two hungry Te functions? Both partners need to seek other people to actually fulfill their mental needs instead of fulfilling them for one another.
Sexual needs are libido limited, you don't need Se-Si magnetism all the time, mental needs however - aren't. You're left with Te lemmings who rely on group think to solve technical challenges in their lives. Go back to that tank metaphor.



intranst said:


> Though like your theory, I'm only vouching for a specific orientation.


My theory includes a range of practical considerations (gives full range of decision making capabilities and justification mechanisms from the get go, has built in safety mechanisms against lemming type behaviour) while at the same time eliminates all the built in negative interactions leaving the partners in a default state of mental comfort, so long as there's no prior unaddressed imbalance (on personal level, not predicated by type). And you're not actually loosing that ENTJ-INFP interaction (like when it comes to sex) because INTP will be pressed to go into their ENTJ shadow.


----------



## ciel sos infel

intranst said:


> I'm not sure how accurate I can take your feedback about the INTJ and INFP though


There are differences between I/E variant but 'psychomechanical' problems remain largely the same, they're only delayed at the cost of weaker attraction.



intranst said:


> because I've had INFJs, ENFJs, and ENTPs misread me before because it seems that intuitives who overly focus on Fe are bad at taking what is said at face value, which is how I feel listened to. This type of thing tends to stick with me, though I have a hard time remembering examples in detail, I just remember it being interpreted differently. I do recall one instance where I made a comment on something for the sheer purpose of making the comment and the INFJ took the comment and interpreted it as a question I was asking her to do something for me.


Can't speak for ENTPs but as far as INFJs go (and ENFJs too because they are similar in this regard) that misunderstanding seems like it's on T layer - INFJs have Te trickster. We misread a lot of intellectual signals, especially when we're going too fast, and we get misread a lot. That's why low Ti needs high Te to factor those mishaps in and understand low Ti user despite their incompetency in presenting their thoughts - or explain something so clearly that even a low Ti user won't get confused. There's a lot of misunderstandings between INFPs and INFJs because of that. Frankly you're the only INFP I can talk intellectual matters with, that I've met so far. I wouldn't believe that this is really happening were it not for ESTJ aspirational in INFPs.



intranst said:


> That type of thing is particularly off putting when I purposefully try not influence my statements with mixed emotions when I don't want it to come across as anything more than me expressing an opinion. This of course isn't any evidence to disprove your theory because I have not experienced anything of the sort with INTPs. Just some extra thought..


Okay. There's a lot of potential for misunderstandings between xNFJs - xNFPs and that's one of the reasons I speak against pairing those types together.

Something came up, I need to end my post now. I'll finish later. (I'll just edit this post)
Ok, I'm back, false alarm.



intranst said:


> I reread the thread, and yeah, I was wrong to think most disagreed when there wasn't a clear win or loss with the argument. Those already in ENFP-INTJ relationships were likely to defend their relationships.


Thank you. I have very hard time talking to people who won't admit to obvious mistakes.



intranst said:


> I kind of weened off the INTJ-INFP idea since inferior Se could be hitting INFPs trickster as it tries toward development, which I view as less of a problem with more confident tertiary Se. This has been my experience with my INTJ brother.


On one side confident Se child will indeed be better but on the other - when it comes to Se trickster trying to take care of Si trickster - the end result will be similar as with Se trickster trying to take care of Si blind man. Low to low opposing polarity functions only work well one way (e.g. horrendous levels of misunderstandings between INFJs an ENFPs - Te trickster + Ti trickster doubling up).



intranst said:


> I understand the functions fairly well, at least well enough to give my arguments some theoretical validity. I will admit that you have me beat on concrete examples. I definitely can't see being with ENTP where Fi is trickster and if INTPs do prefer ExTPs as company, this leads me to think that they prefer more Fe in their interactions, hence INFP is not a good match for them. I suppose a good question to ask is how INTPs view ExTPs in comparison to INFPs.


Maybe I'll add this question to the OP but it might be it's too late now to get responses for it - it'd be probably better to ask that question in a different thread sometime later. Anyway I've done the field work to support my theory against your apprehension. Now it's your turn.

I don't think you have a solid basis for saying that INTPs prever ExTPs as company. The emotionally underdeveloped maybe but if you look at 4 sides of mind thinkers gradually develop into feelers and feelers into thinkers. Having two thinkers doesn't help this process because if neither thinker pushes the other to explore their emotional side then who will?

There's too many positive comments about INFPs from INTPs - some married, some being BFFs, some generally enjoying them - for you to assume that INTPs like Fe more, I don't think I've seen even one so far that complained about INFP's lack of Fe - if anything the problem is over-reliance on Fi in the unhealthy, imbalanced INFPs. I think this quote from one of the users exemplifies how low Fe sees high Fi:
"On the overall, I enjoy/*miss* the Fi softness of xNFP"
Do you know why he 'misses' it? Because Fe is empty and hungry and needs Fi more that Fi needs it. That's balanced however by INFPs Te being as reliant on Ti so it should all go well in most cases.


----------



## intranst

ciel sos infel said:


> Not Fe dom but what attracts me to Fi users is their individuality, that sense that they need someone to take care of them emotionally - that they might appreciate it, not their apparent concern for general emotional atmosphere. Maybe I'd change my mind if an ENFJ echoed your view but I'm not buying it. In the first place you're talking not about attraction but a perceived sense of security through similarity - these are different topics.


It would be interesting to hear an ENFJ's opinion, but that is a good distinction about the perceived sense of security. Seems accurate in my experience.



ciel sos infel said:


> Can you say what makes it different then? I can't see the difference in how 'psychomagnetic' attraction works.


I think in the case of perceiving doms, since perceiving functions are just about information processing, the attraction would be in the aux function since that is where the 'judgement' takes place in them. Let's go with what you said about perceived sense of security instead of the word attraction, it'll be similar with perceiving doms only it's taking place in the auxiliary. The emphasis on Ne-Ni (ENFP-INTJ) rather than say ENFP-ISTJ would be because they are placing judgement within the same domain of information, in this case 'intuition.'



ciel sos infel said:


> Can't speak for ENTPs but as far as INFJs go (and ENFJs too because they are similar in this regard) that misunderstanding seems like it's on T layer - INFJs have Te trickster. We misread a lot of intellectual signals, especially when we're going too fast, and we get misread a lot. That's why low Ti needs high Te to factor those mishaps in and understand low Ti user despite their incompetency in presenting their thoughts - or explain something so clearly that even a low Ti user won't get confused. There's a lot of misunderstandings between INFPs and INFJs because of that. Frankly you're the only INFP I can talk intellectual matters with, that I've met so far. I wouldn't believe that this is really happening were it not for ESTJ aspirational in INFPs.


I would argue that ENTPs with Ti aux is necessary for providing INFJs with logically coherent output since INFJs with Te trickster need information to be accurate in a Ti sense so they can understand it. But yeah, INFP and INFJ are very likely to misunderstand each other since INFP struggles to be logically coherent and INFJ with Te trickster doesn't help. Likewise INFJ stereotypically has a hard time presenting their thoughts in a way that makes sense to others even if it makes sense to them. INFJ female and INFP male is a relatively common matchup but maybe that's while they're still in fairyland. And hey, I'll take that ESTJ comment as compliment haha. I'd like to think I've unlocked Ti to an extent, but I'm still an emo kid at heart.



ciel sos infel said:


> I don't think you have a solid basis for saying that INTPs prever ExTPs as company. The emotionally underdeveloped maybe but if you look at 4 sides of mind thinkers gradually develop into feelers and feelers into thinkers. Having two thinkers doesn't help this process because if neither thinker pushes the other to explore their emotional side then who will?


I'm not saying INTPs should pair up with ExTPs, I'm saying they enjoy the Fe, giving way to ENFJ being a good match for them.



ciel sos infel said:


> "On the overall, I enjoy/*miss* the Fi softness of xNFP"


The word softness here seems like an emphasis on tone and demeanor which is an affect, and leads me to believe that it's actually Fe being wanted. If an INTP more so enjoys the INFP's thought process, their decision making, their individuality, their distinction between right and wrong, that's more Fi cuz Fi first and foremost is a value judgement. Fi is not always a physical feeling.


----------



## series0

So, it's a great post and I love the conjecture. But, I must offer a meta-level counter proposal.

That is to say the only real goal of all evolution is clearly unity, perfection, the GOOD. That means that not in theory really, but as a good intuition, ALL types can and should match with any other. 

When you speak of probability you are only speaking of the weak tendency not to 'get through' suffering. The so-called 'unlikely as successful' matches take more work, more effort, because of initial imbalances in the personality fit. 

But moral duty, truth itself, offers us this intuition, that only with suffering comes wisdom. You might protest that matching a set of people with too disparate of personality types is unwise. But if we instead realize that SOME people can take it and they SHOULD take it because moral progress is thus faster, you begin to sense the truth. 

So, although conjecture of this nature is inevitable as people joust and proffer one theory or another, finally, this type of conjecture is a meta level waste (for the few already operating at a higher wisdom threshold). As soon as this becomes widely known such conjecture would then fall out of practice as a slow traditional approach. By that time people will already be WELL into the practice of 'diving in' to just about ANYBODY else as a possible partner. I mean, LEARN FROM EVERYONE.


----------



## ciel sos infel

series0 said:


> So, it's a great post and I love the conjecture. But, I must offer a meta-level counter proposal.
> 
> That is to say the only real goal of all evolution is clearly unity, perfection, the GOOD. That means that not in theory really, but as a good intuition, ALL types can and should match with any other.
> 
> When you speak of probability you are only speaking of the weak tendency not to 'get through' suffering. The so-called 'unlikely as successful' matches take more work, more effort, because of initial imbalances in the personality fit.
> 
> But moral duty, truth itself, offers us this intuition, that only with suffering comes wisdom. You might protest that matching a set of people with too disparate of personality types is unwise. But if we instead realize that SOME people can take it and they SHOULD take it because moral progress is thus faster, you begin to sense the truth.
> 
> So, although conjecture of this nature is inevitable as people joust and proffer one theory or another, finally, this type of conjecture is a meta level waste (for the few already operating at a higher wisdom threshold). As soon as this becomes widely known such conjecture would then fall out of practice as a slow traditional approach. By that time people will already be WELL into the practice of 'diving in' to just about ANYBODY else as a possible partner. I mean, LEARN FROM EVERYONE.


You don't need to start a romantic relationship with someone to learn from someone - that alone dismantles your argument, regardless of me agreeing with your philosophy or not.
And it's not just initial imbalances. There are issues that never go away. There are needs that are never fulfilled.
If suffering brings you wisdom then go smash your finger with a hammer, that too takes fortitude and goes against weak tendencies of mankind. It makes about as much sense as going into a relationship that's mismatched.
Right amount of suffering in right circumstances can teach life lessons, yes, but purposefully searching for pain is lunacy since pain is not the only way to wisdom (only in some, very stubborn cases).


----------



## Inveniet

I found these two posts after one another quite enlightening.



series0 said:


> So, it's a great post and I love the conjecture. But, I must offer a meta-level counter proposal.
> 
> That is to say the only real goal of all evolution is clearly unity, perfection, the GOOD. That means that not in theory really, but as a good intuition, ALL types can and should match with any other.
> 
> When you speak of probability you are only speaking of the weak tendency not to 'get through' suffering. The so-called 'unlikely as successful' matches take more work, more effort, because of initial imbalances in the personality fit.
> 
> But moral duty, truth itself, offers us this intuition, that only with suffering comes wisdom. You might protest that matching a set of people with too disparate of personality types is unwise. But if we instead realize that SOME people can take it and they SHOULD take it because moral progress is thus faster, you begin to sense the truth.
> 
> So, although conjecture of this nature is inevitable as people joust and proffer one theory or another, finally, this type of conjecture is a meta level waste (for the few already operating at a higher wisdom threshold). As soon as this becomes widely known such conjecture would then fall out of practice as a slow traditional approach. By that time people will already be WELL into the practice of 'diving in' to just about ANYBODY else as a possible partner. I mean, LEARN FROM EVERYONE.


I get that you are pointing at a higher cause, a sort of future state of "betterment" that will arrive faster with sacrifice.
I can agree that wisdom can be bolstered by adversity and that this can greatly effect many things positively from the point of view of a grand higher cause of "progress".
Yet there is a fine line between growth through challenge and stagnation because of a too heavy load.
For example, no one should marry their conflictor if they can avoid it.
To do that, would be to ignore all the accumulated wisdom that the Socionic system brings us.

Now many people do it anyway, mostly because of ignorance, very few by willfully throwing themselves into the maws of this relation.
The people that do it, will suffer and they will hopefully learn something useful from it, if it is going to happen then might as well do the best one can with it.
Yet for many of them, it will be something they can't take and they will be miserable and will actually slow down the progress towards the grand higher cause.
Or so it seems to me at least, because you basically have two people draining each other for energy.
It is like taking your salary and burning it each payday in a bonfire, there is little else to learn from it than just to stop.
In my experience, the best way to learn from ones conflictor, is in short burst, with long breaks in between to process what happened.
That kind of relationship does not follow the pattern of a romantic relationship.

Regardless, it doesn't really matter either way, as with all lofty ideals bent on fine grained accuracy, none of them is going to happen most likely.
This system will not be universally adopted, so there is no worry, plenty of people will keep suffering greatly when they try to link their lives up in not so perfect ways.
On the flip side, some people will try this out and may find ways to decrease their suffering, yet they will soon find that this method is not perfect.
One word, Quadra...
That word alone promises that the Jungian side of equation will continue to spawn suffering, no matter what solution we go for.

Personally I find that there is enough suffering to go around, and there is no need to encourage people to experience more of it JUST BECAUSE of potential wisdom.
At some point we need to start applying the wisdom, and that means actually to stop doing fruitless things.
I assure you that if people stop getting into dumb relationship combos, there are plenty of other factors that cause us to suffer to derive wisdom from.



ciel sos infel said:


> You don't need to start a romantic relationship with someone to learn from someone - that alone dismantles your argument, regardless of me agreeing with your philosophy or not.
> And it's not just initial imbalances. There are issues that never go away. There are needs that are never fulfilled.
> If suffering brings you wisdom then go smash your finger with a hammer, that too takes fortitude and goes against weak tendencies of mankind. It makes about as much sense as going into a relationship that's mismatched.
> Right amount of suffering in right circumstances can teach life lessons, yes, but purposefully searching for pain is lunacy since pain is not the only way to wisdom (only in some, very stubborn cases).


I see your point of view here, but I wonder if the intention is somewhat lost.
To me it seems that there is this expedient approach to gathering wisdom points here.
For the purpose of attaining a greater grand future faster. (My interpretation)
In a way it reminds me of Ruroni Kenshin who killed for a new age of peace before he got disillusioned, seem to me as a similar philosophy.
Justifying suffering with scoring wisdom points.

In that way you are talking to someone that has a "the end justifies the means" mentality.
Future suffering is okay, because it will lead to something better.
I think such thinking is dangerous myself, I think it is only warranted to deal with the past.
What is done is done, and one is best to grab the wisdom and move on.
Yet I think the future, should be met with the wish to decrease suffering as much as possible.
Aiming for less suffering, but accepting that it will happen, because it is inevitable and that many times it will be necessary.
Yet if suffering is necessary, one should know why it is necessary, because it is sometimes necessary to avoid even greater suffering.

Like scolding a child about doing something very dangerous, because the suffering of the scolding is nothing compared to the suffering of the dangerous event.
Some suffering you can't come back from, and being in a particularly bad romantic relationship can be one such event, especially if it is really sour.
Though granted, it is hard to see how all the dices involved fall in the end, yet I hardly find that an argument to willfully play with fire.

This became a somewhat sizable rant for me, but I think it was worth making, as I felt it helped me move my understanding of this area better.


----------



## series0

So, sadly and in general, you DID NOT actually understand my post, as my comments here will explain. That was true DESPITE my clarity in the post before, underscoring some of the problems you yourself decry. Yet and still, in no way does this actually indicate that your conclusions are correct (as I will show).



ciel sos infel said:


> You don't need to start a romantic relationship with someone to learn from someone - that alone dismantles your argument, regardless of me agreeing with your philosophy or not.


But since that is the context of this thread, that was ONLY the sub case I was referring to. 

So, your conclusion DOES NOT FOLLOW from the context. Mine does. Further, even if it did the gist of the argument I made is STILL true, which is that REGARDLESS of the relationship being mundane or romantic, the unity principle would still mean that all success SHOULD be possible if only enough effort (GOOD loving effort) is involved. 

Love IS NOT restricted to romance. ALL relationships are only about love.



ciel sos infel said:


> And it's not just initial imbalances. There are issues that never go away. There are needs that are never fulfilled.


You are now diving down the path of results, consequentialism. That is nonsensical. Only intent actually matters, except when forming new intents whereat you should begin to include feedback from previous results (consequences). 

You can lazily claim that the bad or what we are calling 'imbalances' never has or will go away, but you are 'awefulizing', and blatantly incorrect. Every nay-sayer ever does the same. 'If mankind were meant to fly, God would have given them wings!' Progress is hard. But the effort to make it is worthy, ALWAYS.



ciel sos infel said:


> If suffering brings you wisdom then go smash your finger with a hammer, that too takes fortitude and goes against weak tendencies of mankind. It makes about as much sense as going into a relationship that's mismatched.


So, you only propose to accept for yourself, WEAK challenges. I get it. Go ahead. But that sort of moral fortitude is not doing the world or you any favors, really.

Further, I DID NOT say what you strawmanned me to say. Your reading for understanding needs help. I said NECESSARY suffering is wise, not unnecessary suffering. And I even went on to describe why that argument is not wise when applying it to humans as they are surprisingly full of moral agency, whether they deny this or seek an all-to-easy path as you advise, or not.

Here is a true statement you and many of your like minded thinkers will detest: 'No one is toxic to the wise.' Notice that the condition of toxicity is a label applied by the unwise to usually other unwise. The wise would not apply that label. With the maintenance of possibility, inclusion is guaranteed, exactly what is true of LOVE itself. That seems a BETTER path to me.



ciel sos infel said:


> Right amount of suffering in right circumstances can teach life lessons, yes, but purposefully searching for pain is lunacy since pain is not the only way to wisdom (only in some, very stubborn cases).


You misstep again and put words in my mouth I didn't say. It may be true that correctly identifying 'necessary' suffering is hard, but it is morally required as a task to attempt. 

The point I am trying to make is that the final decision to close a door permanently, what I refer to in personality theory as a 'doorslam' event, is decidedly immoral. 

Since Voltaire was right and doubt may be an unpleasant condition, but certainty is absurd; closure and denying the possibilities, however improbable, is also absurd. You MUST morally remain open. This is the warning Voltaire is making. I think most adaptations of Sherlock Holmes make a similar style argument. "When you eliminate the impossible ..." Of course no one can successfully eliminate the impossible, so that premise is spoiled from the get go as well. 

Samuel Clemens had another broken but interesting take the same idea:

'It's not what you dont know that gets you. Its what you do know for certain, that just aint so!' - Mark Twain

So, he is wrong also. What you don't know will and does kick your butt also. But his warning is about NOT giving in to certainty and labeling is an attempt at certainty that is ill-advised. All of these types as unlabeled could match, so remain open to that possibility. I think that is wise.


----------



## ciel sos infel

intranst said:


> I think in the case of perceiving doms, since perceiving functions are just about information processing,


Every function has a wide area of practical applications so perceiving functions are not just about information processing. For example Ni governs determination, willpower, awareness of where it's user is headed (knowledge of one's own future), considering the consequences of your actions before you perform an action - and thus responsibility, awareness of what it's user wants from life, future plans and the need to find optimal solutions to problems.



intranst said:


> the attraction would be in the aux function since that is where the 'judgement' takes place in them.


And I don't see why it being 'judgement' has anything to do with attraction. It's not about decision or motivation - it's about what causes the pull, and pull is result of opposite polarities - so 'magnetism'.



intranst said:


> Let's go with what you said about perceived sense of security instead of the word attraction, it'll be similar with perceiving doms only it's taking place in the auxiliary. The emphasis on Ne-Ni (ENFP-INTJ) rather than say ENFP-ISTJ would be because they are placing judgement within the same domain of information, in this case 'intuition.'


Only Ne+Ni does exactly the opposite of providing a sense of security. Do I need to find and quote your post where you yourself have noticed that Ni-Se tends to be jealous and possessive in contact with Ne-Si? What about that post from that ENTJ? What about that post from that INTJ just starting relationship with ENFP and complaining that she needs to hold back on her possessiveness? You don't need those accounts even, you just need to look at negative functions to see the lack of security and the reason for it.

You've noticed something important but it's not about security - it's about similar 'mental focus'. It's about differences between intuitives and sensors. But both sensors and intuitives divide into two categories giving in total Ni, Ne, Si, Se. Read Chapter 0 Condition 4. In order to have security with N-S functions you either have to go with someone who has the same functions (INFP-INxP) or with someone who has opposite functions in opposite positions (INFP-ISxP).



intranst said:


> I would argue that ENTPs with Ti aux is necessary for providing INFJs with logically coherent output since INFJs with Te trickster need information to be accurate in a Ti sense so they can understand it.


You mean logically coherent *input* since we're talking about INFJ understanding things. Maybe a typo on your part, just making it clear though.
Now, indeed, ENTP can teach an INFJ a lot, and likewise. I learned the basics of cognitive functions from an ENTP for example. Where you're wrong is in that 'necessary' bit.
INTJ has Ti critic which filters the illogical out. That's the beauty of their Te. While they vampirise ideas from other people they don't take in the information which is 'innacurate in Ti sense' like for example ENFPs have tendency to (which is why they need ENTPs with Te critic to purge them intellectually).
Back to that ENTP guy for a bit - now that I figured the fundamental principles and I started forming my own conclusions I don't need him anymore. There might be other areas in which an ENTP could occasionally help me but on the daily I need Fi. I only have the negative Fi. I only know the meaningless and evil. I need someone who can show me the meaningful and validate me when I'm good - because I don't know that. This is how trying to figure things out with an introverted critic function works:







intranst said:


> But yeah, INFP and INFJ are very likely to misunderstand each other since INFP struggles to be logically coherent and INFJ with Te trickster doesn't help. Likewise INFJ stereotypically has a hard time presenting their thoughts in a way that makes sense to others even if it makes sense to them. INFJ female and INFP male is a relatively common matchup but maybe that's while they're still in fairyland.


I'm glad we agree and don't need to go through that bit at least.



intranst said:


> And hey, I'll take that ESTJ comment as compliment haha. I'd like to think I've unlocked Ti to an extent, but I'm still an emo kid at heart.


It was a compliment. I don't know how it could be taken any other way but I guess I only need to look at the paragraph above about how INFPs and INFJs struggle to understand one another. You wrote that you had an INTJ brother correct? I think this helped your Te a lot. Like some of INTPs in that reddit thread about what do they think about INFPs - the ones with appreciation of emotional side of life usually had a feeler in their family (I don't remember if I pressed them to tell whether it was Fe or Fi feeler though).



intranst said:


> I'm not saying INTPs should pair up with ExTPs, I'm saying they enjoy the Fe, giving way to ENFJ being a good match for them.


You've read the thread. They enjoy Fi too. Some don't but again - those are usually the emotionally underdeveloped cases.



intranst said:


> The word softness here seems like an emphasis on tone and demeanor which is an affect, and leads me to believe that it's actually Fe being wanted. If an INTP more so enjoys the INFP's thought process, their decision making, their individuality, their distinction between right and wrong, that's more Fi cuz Fi first and foremost is a value judgement. Fi is not always a physical feeling.


Both Fe and Fi can be considerate and 'soft' but the author of the post himself said 'Fi softness' of xNFPs. Imagine a stereotypical INFP girl. Does 'softness' apply to her or not? I think it does, they are silent, meek, maybe even a little pliant, conflict avoidant etc. These constitute what could be considered 'softness'.
But you know what, I'm now siting on such a vast pool of data from that thread for INTPs appreciating INFPs - even to a point of marrying them - that you can dismiss that one case if you want.
Personally I think that one of the most important posts were the ones that claimed infatuation with fictional INFP characters. I've also experienced that phenomenon for INTJ characters. To me this is big - there seems to be an image of your perfect match burned into you and it's like you're searching for it and get attracted to it's traits. At least that's what it seems to me.


----------



## ciel sos infel

I shouldn't have responded, should I...



series0 said:


> So, sadly and in general, you DID NOT actually understand my post, as my comments here will explain. That was true DESPITE my clarity in the post before, underscoring some of the problems you yourself decry. Yet and still, in no way does this actually indicate that your conclusions are correct (as I will show).


Spare me paragraphs like that. Jump straight to 'proving me wrong'. Save time both mine and yours.



series0 said:


> But since that is the context of this thread, that was ONLY the sub case I was referring to.


You come to a thread about perfect romantic pairing to tell people that perfect romantic pairings are wrong because they need to suffer to obtain wisdom. I don't care about other cases.



series0 said:


> So, your conclusion DOES NOT FOLLOW from the context. Mine does.


You're proposing that people make themselves and other people purposefully suffer in order to attain wisdom because unless I misunderstood something this makes the 'perfect' romantic relationship in your eyes. I told you that you can attain wisdom in other ways and you can learn from other people - with whom you don't need to live together.
It doesn't matter if your conclusion follows the context if it's incorrect.



series0 said:


> Further, even if it did the gist of the argument I made is STILL true, which is that REGARDLESS of the relationship being mundane or romantic, the unity principle would still mean that all success SHOULD be possible if only enough effort (GOOD loving effort) is involved.


The costs for failure in committed romantic relationship are insurmountably higher than the costs of failing in a friendship. Example: children's mental health and effects of broken households on it. Life's difficult anyway. Relationships require effort anyway. There's no need to make them purposefully difficult whatsoever.




series0 said:


> Love IS NOT restricted to romance. ALL relationships are only about love.


Irrelevant. Show me where I'm wrong, not add another philosophical statements with no bearing on the subject.



series0 said:


> You are now diving down the path of results, consequentialism. That is nonsensical. Only intent actually matters, except when forming new intents whereat you should begin to include feedback from previous results (consequences).


Nonsensical? Do you expect people to brave through every unfulfilled psychological need, every hurdle in communciation, every mismatched expectation about how romantic love should be because of 'intent'? Should a possessive guy marry a nymphomaniac? What purpose does it serve if it's nearly guaranteed that he's going to get cheated on? Cure him of his possessiveness? Why does he need to be cured of his possessiveness? Why not have that psychological need fulfilled instead?



series0 said:


> You can lazily claim that the bad or what we are calling 'imbalances' never has or will go away, but you are 'awefulizing', and blatantly incorrect. Every nay-sayer ever does the same. 'If mankind were meant to fly, God would have given them wings!' Progress is hard. But the effort to make it is worthy, ALWAYS.


What progress? Do you understand what cognitive functions are or what they do? Do you know what cognitive transitions are?



series0 said:


> So, you only propose to accept for yourself, WEAK challenges. I get it. Go ahead. But that sort of moral fortitude is not doing the world or you any favors, really.


Your obsession with proving your STRENGTH already shows your lack of wisdom.



series0 said:


> Further, I DID NOT say what you strawmanned me to say. Your reading for understanding needs help. I said NECESSARY suffering is wise, not unnecessary suffering. And I even went on to describe why that argument is not wise when applying it to humans as they are surprisingly full of moral agency, whether they deny this or seek an all-to-easy path as you advise, or not.


How is entering a relationship with someone you're horribly matched a NECESSARY suffering when you can enjoy love, understanding, companionship and fulfillment with someone you're matched perfectly?



series0 said:


> Here is a true statement you and many of your like minded thinkers will detest: 'No one is toxic to the wise.' Notice that the condition of toxicity is a label applied by the unwise to usually other unwise. The wise would not apply that label. With the maintenance of possibility, inclusion is guaranteed, exactly what is true of LOVE itself. That seems a BETTER path to me.


You've said absolutely nothing in that paragraph. The last two sentences are just rehash of "intent to make things work is the only thing that matters in a relationship" which is naive, and I think you need to suffer to learn why that is naive.



series0 said:


> You misstep again and put words in my mouth I didn't say. It may be true that correctly identifying 'necessary' suffering is hard, but it is morally required as a task to attempt.


Necessary suffering will find you on it's own. You don't need to search for it. You'll even get some unnecessary suffering as a bonus.



series0 said:


> The point I am trying to make is that the final decision to close a door permanently, what I refer to in personality theory as a 'doorslam' event, is decidedly immoral.


Oh. Have you been 'doorslammed' perhaps? Immoral huh? How about all the behaviours that caused a 'doorslam'? Were they moral even though they caused suffering to the person who eventually decided that enough is enough? Do you want unlimited chances to rip through someone's very soul?



series0 said:


> Since Voltaire was right and doubt may be an unpleasant condition, but certainty is absurd; closure and denying the possibilities, however improbable, is also absurd. You MUST morally remain open. This is the warning Voltaire is making. I think most adaptations of Sherlock Holmes make a similar style argument. "When you eliminate the impossible ..." Of course no one can successfully eliminate the impossible, so that premise is spoiled from the get go as well.


You're an ENFP correct?
Unfortunately for your many words you're straying further and further away from proving me wrong.



series0 said:


> Samuel Clemens had another broken but interesting take the same idea:
> 
> 'It's not what you dont know that gets you. Its what you do know for certain, that just aint so!' - Mark Twain
> 
> So, he is wrong also. What you don't know will and does kick your butt also. But his warning is about NOT giving in to certainty and labeling is an attempt at certainty that is ill-advised. All of these types as unlabeled could match, so remain open to that possibility. I think that is wise.


So basically: "There is a possibility that you're wrong so you're wrong and people should force themselves to suffer through relationships that are super likely to make them miserable because maybe just maybe parts of it will kinda sorta work okay-ish or people are going to delude themselves that hey are happy when they just don't understand that this isn't how love could be and will seem happy enough so how dare you take that away from them". And yea I'm putting a lot of words into your mouth here but come on. There have to be reasons why something is worth the trouble - if it's only a chance of perhaps gaining some wisdom through it - I'll pass.
Understand cognitive functions, understand the principles I'm talking about, understand 4 sides of mind and then tell me where I'm wrong.


----------



## ciel sos infel

Found another example of xNxP (ENTP in this case) harping on INxJs for their Ne nemesis paranoia:




The relevant part is from 36:34 to 37:50.
Unfortunately he comes from a perspective of "stop being paranoid" without understanding that he's the one reinforcing this paranoia with every display of his Ne hero.
This is a recurring problem, I'm not pulling this out of my own behind. It's just the solution to this problem isn't for xNxJ to force themselves to stop being paranoid to accomodate high Ne unpredictability - it's for INTJs to be with INFJs and ENTJs with ENFJs, romantically.


----------



## ciel sos infel

Ran out of space in OP.

*Addendum 3: Introverted hero - extroverted weakling and a deeper look into INTP-INFP pairing*

Since some INFPs in the thread have raised their concerns about being with someone with Fe I felt the need to touch on the matter.

First things first - not all Fi users will be immediately suspicious about displays of Fe _(only Fe nemesis and Fe critic users)_. The trick is in proper alignment, I've talked about 'signal strength' in Chapter 0 Condition 2.

What I'll do next is I'll try to knit together my responses to both INFP and INTP posters so the style will vary but there's important information on both sides so I don't want to cut it into two separate halves.

First let's look at two quotes that should provide some ease to both of your types.

Here's an INTP:


Plusless said:


> Ti explains reality to remain in control of it, by forcing that on others I would be controlling how they approach the world even if I wouldn`t use specifics like "do X". I don`t like doing that because I hate being on the receiving end of it.


And here's an INFP:


intranst said:


> I believe healthy individuals understand that we are two independents in a relationship, which shows general respect, responsibility for our own thoughts and emotions, and a lack of ownership over one another.


And I could stop here, frankly, because you can see the depth of compatibility right there, in these two passages but there's more, so why not include it?

In one of my posts I've used a quote about a mythical bird that shares wings, Jian, and I got some very typical replies from an INFP so it'll be like a little FAQ:



WickerDeer said:


> I can't say I really share your sentiment about the bird that shares wings, except in that I can see how two people can complement each other enough to allow each of them to soar to greater heights than they would alone.


She doesn't want to feel tied down to another person because she has high Ne. Neither will an INTP.



WickerDeer said:


> So maybe up and down is different for everyone--perhaps up to me is to do art and to be healthy and focus on well being and discover new things, whereas up for an INTP might be to do something completely different. Cognitive functions cannot be solely responsible for where we want to go?


She'll flap her wing and an INTP will flap their wing but their bodies - their basic needs (Ne-Si) - are very similar by default so after a bit of adjustment they'll fly in concord, each pulling their weight in places the other one can't (because INFP doesn't have conscious access to Ti and INTP has but don't have conscious access to Fi while INFP does in abundance).



WickerDeer said:


> Wouldn't both birds need to at least want to go the same place? I mean, they might not even see the world the same way and so one bird might know of places the other bird doesn't know--if they both could have flown on their own, which we will assume that they can.


Seeing similar respect for freedom and individuality in their partner INTP will want to follow INFP's Fi in it's areas of decision making and INFP will want to follow INTP's Ti in it's areas of decision making because INTP lacks Fi but will feel super attracted to one that fits their needs (Fi hero) and INFP lacks Ti and will feel super attractive to one that fits their needs (Ti hero) and since both have roughly the same Ne-Si, yea, they will want to go the same place so long as you're not completely incompatible in other areas (like beliefs, traditions, sexual preferences etc.).



WickerDeer said:


> I feel like I share a lot of weaknesses that an INTP has or an INFP has, and that we would amplify that. Though there are INFP and INTP that work great together too--it seems more individual than type.


And because she shares those weaknesses she understands how that other person can be weak in these areas instead of looking down on them for their incompetency. Silly example: she won't get nagged about having to buy a new set of plates every year because of her dropping them since the other person will drop them too and a new set of plates every year will just be included in living expenses. Do understand that you have other personalities that come into play easier because of those shared weaknesses since there is a niche for them to jump into and fulfill? And you need to live in these other personalities too in order to be fulfilled as an individual because they are you as well! Just like with cognitive functions - in terms of energy expenditure prioritization ego INFP is like hero function, inside-out ENFJ is like parent function, upside-down ESTJ is like child function and super ego ISTP is like weakling function - you need to spend time using all of them in order to be a balanced individual.

Can't see why Se trickster paired with Se trickster would be such a problem. For example INTPs get some bad rep for their poor sense of style but would an INFP really care if they don't have a properly working sense of aesthetics either? If neither minds why shouldn't they be walking crimes against style, *who cares as long as they fancy each other?*

Another example I can think of would be Se wanting to experience something pleasant and potentially expensive and Si wanting to have more of a financial stability. N and S define lifestyle, that's why they need to be the same for two people not to be constantly at odds with each other over how to spend the money among other things.



Plusless said:


> If you have something that you value extremely highly, would you just throw it away for an alternative? Why would they want what my Ti represents if it goes against that? Why would I want to replace those views in them?


Te weakling is insecure about itself and craves to become smarter and it becomes smarter by feeding on Ti. I don't think they value applying Fi judgements to non Fi matter that much because of this inferiority complex. A dumb example but imagine an INFP unable to solve algebra problem and writing a poem as a solution instead and getting an F for the test or getting mocked before the whole class. They see the consequences of their Fi choices on things Fi does not fit into when they pick up on what others think about them via Te weakling (which is super sensitive to being seen as not so smart). They crave to be an ESTJ academic, to be revered for their knowledge but that only happens when they read a lot or listen to smart people. Problem is Te weakling is initially really bad at choosing who to believe and has difficulties picking up observations from the outside world as well. Weakling/inferior functions need training.
What happens when a Te weakling sees Ti hero? They pick up on nearly bravado esque self confidence of Ti hero and believe it. They're not swayed by my Ti child, thinking in simplified concepts in order to explain itself, fumbling here and there, but they will believe Ti hero on Ti matters instead of applying Fi judgement where it does not fit and only ends up hurting them.
Same happens for INTP's Fe weakling and their Fi hero so the transaction is mutually beneficial and balanced.

Why would you need Fi? Me being an INFJ, I only have Fi critic by default and I cannot justify anything that isn't logical (unless I feel super duper comfortable and loved and appreciated and jump into ENFP form). I can't go to a restaurant, cinema or on a trip alone (maybe into the woods where there are no people to potentially question me "Why are you here?" and even if I know no one would do that this sort of irrational fear remains). If I had an INTJ girlfriend and she wanted to go out somewhere then no problem, I can rely on her internal motivation, but I cannot justify doing such things myself. That's why an INTP needs someone by their side that can provide those things for them via Fi because it's not that INTPs don't have any preferences or whims or that they wouldn't like to go out somewhere nice - they're just not aware of it (while I'm extremely critical of it even if I get some inclination of what that might be). In INTP's case an INFP, since they the same with N-S functions, will accurately simulate what an INTP would like to do and provide the justification for doing that via Fi sympathy. Fe is broken on it's own. It is analogous with Te. INFPs get abused a lot because they have practically no sense of self worth but they can cling to that Ti hero INTPs have! You can tell them "You cannot allow XYZ to treat you like that." and then they will believe and feel justified to defend themselves against abuse. Hero function takes pity on weakling function and comes to rescue, just like parent function wants to pamper child function.



Plusless said:


> If I cannot see Fi in myself, how can I accept it from others? If INFPs don`t see Ti in themself, how can they accept it from me?


I'm not entirely sure but perhaps he meant here that an INFP cannot judge correctly whether to accept his Ti if they cannot verify it? Okay, that might be a potential concern but INFP has the same 'dominance' on INTP's weakling Fe. There is a balance here, the relationship isn't one sided. If anything goes wrong each side has one another in check.

Look, if someone has enough Ti to verify your Ti hero then that means they don't need Ti hero and that makes 'hero' status obsolete, it cannot fulfill it's 'saving the day' role. But, for example, an INFP that has no self-respect as in 'not taking anyone's shit' defensive capabilities could use some of that justification that Ti hero has in abundance. Yes, Fi has it's own defensive capabilities, but those only work when either something goes against their moral system or their sense of identity. There might be some other appliances of this defensive mechanism but it will never work properly for them in T realm because of that very insecure, Te weakling that's worried it'll end up being seen as dumb and that can be abused quite easily unless an INFP can fall back on someone else's Ti. Ti hero works best for this because it's so self assured it dispels the worries of the weakling it's helping.

Introverted judging function can be compared to a male, maybe even directly a male organ as in producing 'content' and then when it becomes full, swollen and heavy seeking to discharge that content. Extroverted function is hungry for that content, sometimes because it cannot justify an action it maybe would like to take, sometimes because it cannot calculate a conclusion from what it observed. There's a mutually beneficial exchange here but the supply and demand need to be aligned.

Having Fe parent - Fi hero tires me. Let me again use a sexualized metaphor, it's kinda silly but whatever. So Fi hero gets a huge emotional load pent up and ready to release and my responsible Fe mommy tries to take it all and it might be fun for a bit but it doesn't stop coming and before long Fe mommy gets irritated because Fi hero recklessly dumped it's burdens all over the thread and, frankly, Fe mommy has some other chores but now it feels like it has to deal with all that stinky mess.

If Fi hero however found a nice, cute Fe weakling to use as an outlet for it's urges it would be a different story because the weakling is a pushover either way, it doesn't mind that at all. Fi hero can pump so many emotions into the weakling that they go right through and don't overburden the recipient who cannot process it all anyway. The point is not to digest the entire emotional load but to take it like a good girl and make the hero feel like the hero it is while giving the weakling the most intense emotional experience of it's life and making it gain confidence that it took all that Fi hero had to give and it didn't break it despite being so weak.

It's not exactly how this works, all that I'm trying to do is to visualize in the end but what I'm getting at is that the most magnetically attractive positions in the stack are the equal position (which triggers the negative function so it shouldn't be in the ego) and the opposite position on the axis (which doesn't trigger negative function). This is not just a theory but an observation from anecdotes and what I've seen online.



Plusless said:


> Ji doms like INXPs are often very defensive about their worldviews, and that is usually even more exaggerated by the misunderstandings between T and F. Fi-doms are one of the types that I have the most conflict with, sure there are some that I naturally get along with really well, but that is an extremely thin line to walk on when your methods of communicating and understanding are so vastly different.


The thing is that this difference needs to be jarring to properly balance the extremes otherwise the one with the strongest introverted function is poised to win from the start and dominate their partner.

Yes INxPs tend to shut themselves off in their Ti/Fi-Si loops refusing to listen any Ti/Fi judgement other than one that they have made but that is largely because of their respective nemesi functions afraid to tackle what others think or feel. A weakling function can break that loop because it does not trigger nemesis, it's just an observation without any introverted motive discernable behind it. I haven't experienced hero-weakling axis but that's how it works between parent-child axis (example: Ti child of an INFJ stating a judgement on logical error, Te parent picking it up and giving to Ti critic to verify and Ti critic instantly noticing the inconsistency once prompted).

So Ne-Si is different between INTP and INFP but it still is analogous. For example an INTP daydream about Ti stuff, INFP daydream about Fi stuff but you both end up procrastinating the same, neglecting to keep up with your social obligations or whatnot. That often becomes a source of frustration to other types (especially xxxJs) but you will understand that INFP needs that time for their daydreaming because you work that way too. This won't be a point of contention. An INTP won't attempt to make an INFP go out and interact with people like say ENFJ might want to do. INTP implicitly understand INFP needs because their needs are analogous. This should make understanding one another intuitive and fairly frictionless.

Si takes care of itself. Exception would be an INFP becoming horny and going into possessive ENFJ mommy form, then they get Se child and Se child plays with Si child giving it experiences (perhaps even high impact sexual violence experiences).
By default however what it's most about is INFP and INTP not triggering their nemesis functions, being able to guess what each other want and omitting their own Ni critics, Se tricksters not really interacting with each other because Si children take care of themselves on their own, and the fact that they provide Ti/Fi justifications for one another and feed one another's Te/Fe.


*Both INFPs and INTPs*: you're not loosing anything by giving of what already overflows and if, for what you have in abundance, you're getting what you lack the most in return - there's no better arrangement. Maybe you don't notice it but looking at cognitive functions I can see clearly that there's a Fi hero shaped hole in an INTP and a Ti hero shaped hole in an INFP. Imagine yourself but having all the things that you always lacked and willing to share them with you in exchange for the things that you possess. Would you force that woman or man, to whom you can relate on such a deep level, into anything? Neither would they. It is a bit of an idealized scenario since there are other layers of compatibility that are important as well but since we're talking type pairing not human pairing then I can get away with it.

I'm not very familiar with INFP's sexual tastes but since I've lived among male INTPs in their natural habitat for several years I can at least speak to them. Wouldn't it be nice to have:
1. hapless INFP imouto
2. feisty ENFJ mommy
3. prideful ESTJ tsundere
4. 'rapey' ISTP tomboy
in one package?
Imagine.

It wasn't my initial idea to use it here but it's a significant pool of data on INFP-INTP compatibility so it's worth taking a look and explaining:

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/INTP/comments/upezfj

Notice that INTPs with bad opinion on INFPs usually are emotionally underdeveloped, those who had contact with feelers during their upbringing tend to enjoy INFP company. There are also those who reasonably judged some INFPs in their lives as unhealthy, and I made sure to ask for examples of unhealthy behaviours so you can confirm that for yourself. There's been mention of several happy marriages, one currently struggling because of death of INFPs close relatives (emotional imbalance is completely understandable in that case) and one that fell part because of INFP being 'histerical' (we only have INTP's view on that though, truth might be that this INTP was emotionally underdeveloped, no way to know for sure).

And also, while this might not be significant for you - it is for me: couple INTPs reported falling for INFP fictional characters. It happens to me with INTJs. That means they are recognizing the imprint of their ideal match in those characters. I have no way to prove this but I do think that we're all preprogrammed to fall for our T/F variant, it's just displays of functions can get confused and misinterpreted so we end up loving the wrong (cognitively misaligned) people.

Maybe it's wasn't an overwhelming majority but most INTPs like INFPs, provided they aren't completely Fi driven at the cost of neglecting the rest of their functions - it's not a good state of being either way and I don't think there's any type that would enjoy being with INFP in that unhealthy state for long.


----------



## Llyralen

“There is no accounting for taste” 

The assumptions about what different functions/types crave becomes more obviously false with more observation and greater sample size. If you broke this up and asked each group if they agree you might see that there is a lot here that isn’t true.

I think theories like this are harmful. I had a thread about why I think it’s harmful on the NF forum a while back.

However, you obviously out a lot of thought into this… so if you were to observe a bigger sample size and expand your views it would be interesting to see what you come up with. There are a few actual studies out there as well to take into account.


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## ciel sos infel

Llyralen said:


> “There is no accounting for taste” I assumptions about what different functions/types crave becomes more obviously false with more observation and greater sample size. If you broke this up and asked each group if they agree you might see that there is a lot here that isn’t true.
> 
> I think theories like this are harmful. I had a thread about why I think it’s harmful on the NF forum a while back.


Tell me then what basis do you have for your assumption that people are correct and trustworthy when it comes to self perception?

Greater sample size doesn't change anything because people are by default unaware of great many things about themselves and I can explain that via cogntive functions. And you don't need to accept my explanations by faith - you can introspect and see if it is as I say it is - and provided you're honest and that you've been properly typed - you will understand that I am correct. You are your own lab and test subject.



Llyralen said:


> However, you obviously out a lot of thought into this… so if you were to observe a bigger sample size and expand your views it would be interesting to see what you come up with. There are a few actual studies out there as well to take into account.


And what do these studies measure? Perceptions of the tested? And without considering their actual level of maturity since - how would they measure it? It's not directly related to age after all.
Understand that Te is a helper not a ruler. Te cannot understand the mechanism in a way that allows it to derive further understanding, it can only measure and learn _(but it only knows what it learned, there's no jumpstarting it to gain further cohesive conclusions on it's own like with Ti, you can do that somewhat via your shadow but it requires a certain emotional state)_. You look at the external and think that by looking at the external you are being objective but the only objective part about it is data, which can be wildly misinterpreted without understanding the underlying mechanisms. I've given you those mechanisms. Have you took the time to go through it with whatever Ti you have available (I'm assuming it's negative Ti) and analyze the logical consistency of what I am proposing or have you just looked at the credibility factor so that you don't need to challenge yourself?

Please understand. The only thing you did was measure credibility or believability value of what I've proposed. You haven't done verifying in the area of truth/false or logical consistency of my statements. Even the most believable study can lie and even the most consistent idea can be a delusion if it is it is because of wrong data points like prior conclusions. I've outlined every step leading to my conclusions. Find the steps that are wrong and if you're correct I'll thank you for it because I don't want to go around lying to people, believe it or not.


----------



## Windblownhair

ciel sos infel said:


> When personalities overlap so do their niches - they conflict, compete for territory within relationship.
> These sets of personalities are:
> xNTP-xSFJ-xSFP-xNTJ and xNFP-xSTJ-xSTP-xNFJ
> In order to evade overlap we need to pick one from one set and one from the other.


I like the layout of this, including both a ‘perfect’ pairing but also a range of pairings with potential.



ciel sos infel said:


> I suspected Fi inferior is easy to wound but I did not expect how easy it actually is until I harmed one with honesty she supposedly wanted. At least through that experience I understood that ENTJ-INFJ is sub optimal. I don't have enough excess Fe kindness to bubble wrap everything that goes out of my lips. Fe hero does though.


There is a definite learning curve on this one. The Fe on Fe version of this feels like lessening the blow, gentleness, indirectness, sandwiching criticism with praise. Having an ESFJ mother, and being an INFJ myself, it’s the version that feels most comfortable and natural. But learning the Fi inferior version, which entails being straightforward but soft (if that makes an sense), feels very much like a trust fall the first few go arounds (Are they _really _not going to be hurt by this directness?) but quickly becomes natural because it works SO well. At least in my experience. I believe you referenced something to this effect about being able to simulate functions in order to anticipate needs (I’d quote it but I forgot where it was).

———

Enjoyed reading through the entire theory, the chassis illustrations really stuck with me.


----------



## ciel sos infel

Windblownhair said:


> I like the layout of this, including both a ‘perfect’ pairing but also a range of pairings with potential.


I'm 'open-sourcing' my thinking process so that if I made a mistake someone can point me to it easier.



Windblownhair said:


> There is a definite learning curve on this one. The Fe on Fe version of this feels like lessening the blow, gentleness, indirectness, sandwiching criticism with praise. Having an ESFJ mother, and being an INFJ myself, it’s the version that feels most comfortable and natural. But learning the Fi inferior version, which entails being straightforward but soft (if that makes an sense), feels very much like a trust fall the first few go arounds (Are they _really _not going to be hurt by this directness?) but quickly becomes natural because it works SO well. At least in my experience.


Doesn't it tire you? When I imagined having to go through this question you mentioned every single time I wanted to say something to a person I found it to be taxing. The idea is that ENFJ goes through those questions anyway by default (to a point of fakeness), INFJ has to force themselves to do it to the same degree. Another thing is the bit that makes talking to an ENTJ so comfortable initially is actually a symptom of a problem. It happens like that because we both have thinking functions in optimistic positions so we're both eager to engage them. In contrast both of our feeling functions are pessimistic so they take a more passive approach and get pushed aside. I understand how this arrangement would feel more comfortable but I consider it to be imbalanced - the feeling sphere becomes underexplored whereas if ENTJ was with ENFJ that ENFJ would pull their ENTJ into it. Because feelings get underexplored and thinking is overengaged INFJ might end up feeling drained - not enough energy fed into Fe and Ti being vacuumed a little too much.

I grew to like ENTJs after just a few communications with them but that Fi inferior can do a 180 degree turn on something that I value very highly a little too easily for my taste and it would benefit from overzealous Fe hero supervision (which would be also more understanding towards someone changing their mind in that regard, I imagine, since it's also easier to influence than Fe parent). I still like them and I consider an ENTJ to be second best choice but it makes no sense to go for second best when INTJ is mechanically optimized for INFJ.



Windblownhair said:


> I believe you referenced something to this effect about being able to simulate functions in order to anticipate needs (I’d quote it but I forgot where it was).


Emulation is a resource hungry process. Pairings that require emulation by default are sub optimal. Imagine trying to make a perpetuum mobile, there's a very fragile balance to be struck in order not to bleed energy. Same with pairings - there are many that can work with extra effort but I think there's only one that doesn't require anything else of us than what we should be doing anyway.



Windblownhair said:


> Enjoyed reading through the entire theory, the chassis illustrations really stuck with me.


You're the second INFJ that made a mention of it. I guess it's just us having similar needs.

Anyway did you find anything that you've disagreed with? Anything blatantly incorrect? Any mechanism that I've gotten wrong?


----------



## Windblownhair

ciel sos infel said:


> Doesn't it tire you? When I imagined having to go through this question you mentioned every single time I wanted to say something to a person I found it to be taxing. The idea is that ENFJ goes through those questions anyway by default (to a point of fakeness), INFJ has to force themselves to do it to the same degree.


No. It’s not like I’m applying here questions to every interaction I have….more like an interaction that has potential to be upsetting, like providing direction, feedback, criticism. And I work in education, which means the dividends this care pays are enormous (in terms of student/colleague trust and engagement).

If I _did _have to use to that frequently, then absolutely it sounds exhausting. I’d be blowing the proverbial Fe fuse more often than not.



ciel sos infel said:


> Anyway did you find anything that you've disagreed with? Anything blatantly incorrect? Any mechanism that I've gotten wrong?


Cutting and pasting out of order, since the bit I disagree with is the energy expenditure for ENTJs.
(Context of experiences: INFJ wife, ENTJ husband, married 14 years, late 30s)



ciel sos infel said:


> Another thing is the bit that makes talking to an ENTJ so comfortable initially is actually a symptom of a problem. It happens like that because we both have thinking functions in optimistic positions so we're both eager to engage them. In contrast both of our feeling functions are pessimistic so they take a more passive approach and get pushed aside. I understand how this arrangement would feel more comfortable but I consider it to be imbalanced - the feeling sphere becomes underexplored whereas if ENTJ was with ENFJ that ENFJ would pull their ENTJ into it. Because feelings get underexplored and thinking is overengaged INFJ might end up feeling drained - not enough energy fed into Fe and Ti being vacuumed a little too much.


ENTJ feelings are very quiet, in the sense that they are straightforward and uncomplicated, but also in the sense that they extrude very little into the outer world. This means that for someone like me, that spends a lot of time more dialed into how others are feeling than how I necessarily am feeling, it’s a welcome respite. I have to the quiet to catch up on my own personal feelings without a lot of static distracting me.
And the amount of emotional feedback is very analogous. We always end our day with a long walk together, talking about the day and peppering in our feelings about what’s going on. It’s comforting because we both see similar themes weaving through our individual days and interactions with people, and to get out as much as we want to get out, and then to run out of steam at the same time.



ciel sos infel said:


> Emulation is a resource hungry process. Pairings that require emulation by default are sub optimal. Imagine trying to make a perpetuum mobile, there's a very fragile balance to be struck in order not to bleed energy. Same with pairings - there are many that can work with extra effort but I think there's only one that doesn't require anything else of us than what we should be doing anyway.


Again, not feeling a perpetual energy expenditure or fight for balance because it isn’t something that needs to happen continuously. Like my previous example with the trust fall, it took a few attempts to ascertain that when my ENTJ said he wanted this straightforwardly, he _actually _wanted them straightforwardly. But once that was settled, then it’s like “this is how we roll.” It isn’t an effort to re-figure it out or be something different. It’s just choosing which tool in the toolbox is best for the project.


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## Windblownhair

Llyralen said:


> However, you obviously out a lot of thought into this… so if you were to observe a bigger sample size and expand your views it would be interesting to see what you come up with. There are a few actual studies out there as well to take into account.


I really wish the Baron-Tieger study had sliced the data differently (or additionally)! But I’m guessing they didn’t have a large enough sample size to draw statistically significant conclusions once it would have been broken down far. That’s got to be over a hundred data points just to hit each pairing once, let alone establishing patterns.


----------



## Llyralen

ciel sos infel said:


> Tell me then what basis do you have for your assumption that people are correct and trustworthy when it comes to self perception?
> 
> Greater sample size doesn't change anything because people are by default unaware of great many things about themselves and I can explain that via cogntive functions. And you don't need to accept my explanations by faith - you can introspect and see if it is as I say it is - and provided you're honest and that you've been properly typed - you will understand that I am correct. You are your own lab and test subject.
> 
> 
> And what do these studies measure? Perceptions of the tested? And without considering their actual level of maturity since - how would they measure it? It's not directly related to age after all.
> Understand that Te is a helper not a ruler. Te cannot understand the mechanism in a way that allows it to derive further understanding, it can only measure and learn _(but it only knows what it learned, there's no jumpstarting it to gain further cohesive conclusions on it's own like with Ti, you can do that somewhat via your shadow but it requires a certain emotional state)_. You look at the external and think that by looking at the external you are being objective but the only objective part about it is data, which can be wildly misinterpreted without understanding the underlying mechanisms. I've given you those mechanisms. Have you took the time to go through it with whatever Ti you have available (I'm assuming it's negative Ti) and analyze the logical consistency of what I am proposing or have you just looked at the credibility factor so that you don't need to challenge yourself?
> 
> Please understand. The only thing you did was measure credibility or believability value of what I've proposed. You haven't done verifying in the area of truth/false or logical consistency of my statements. Even the most believable study can lie and even the most consistent idea can be a delusion if it is it is because of wrong data points like prior conclusions. I've outlined every step leading to my conclusions. Find the steps that are wrong and if you're correct I'll thank you for it because I don't want to go around lying to people, believe it or not.


The theories just don’t pan out in real life, and if you want to get personal and battle from a what I can see versus what you can see kind of space, then my functions are all geared to be able to see all the flaws in yours— in my opinion, that just means we need to listen and learn from each other if you can expand more and if I can focus— which I will do when I get a chunk of time. Besides, you aren’t thinking of the damage that can happen when people believe this stuff— but when I think about your functions it would be less damaging for a person like yourself than a person like me to rely on an incorrect theory in areas of the heart. 

To answer your first question—some of us are much more highly perceptive about ourselves and that is much more reliable information for some of us and must be listened to. Also what is perceived as truly happening around me in this feeling world— it doesn’t match what you’ve got. We should talk. I guess I understand that might be a lot of work. For both of us. I’m willing, though., since you’ve put so much into this.


----------



## JennyJukes

Yes, I read your OP. Yes, I (tried to) read this whole thread.

I'm confused how people are supposed to prove you wrong on a theory that you have provided no evidence for either other than assumptions as what should/shouldn't work? Then when your theory doesn't make sense to other people, you put the onus on them to prove_ you_ wrong? Sure, wouldn't the world be great if every thought we had was right and other people must simply accept it?

First of all, there is _no _such thing as a perfect pairing. Not in MBTI terms, not in any terms. Humans are not perfect and neither are relationships. So I think it's a moot point in the first place for any of these many theories to claim there's such a thing as a perfect pairing. Second of all, MBTI itself is based on theory and not fact - if the theory is wrong then conclusions made by said theory are inherently wrong too. Third, relationships are so complex that there simply cannot be one theory or even one fact that determines an ideal pairing. Your theory says I should date an ISTJ - my life experiences and culture say otherwise. MBTI says I should be a nurse - my life experience says otherwise too (because how can I be a nurse if I have a blood phobia?). Sure ISFJ women and ISTJ men may be the ideal match in previous generations where women were forced to be housewives and men went out to work, but our generation is different and our ideals can change with societal expectations too. Prove me wrong.


----------



## Llyralen

@ciel sos infel This is the thread I mentioned. If you read through it, there are links and information on studies. Thankfully @Windblownhair provided information from a book reporting studies. 

I think the biggest dangers in all of this is due to prejudice and misunderstanding how functions work. Of course I have my own opinions about compatibility— pushing my opinion into others wouldn’t help anything, though. There is too much variation in lives and experiences and families that make it so that there is no consistent function that anyone needs or craves. Individuals respect or don’t respect certain functions in others for their own interesting reasons. Idealization in functions usually comes from a lack of familiarity with it. Prejudice and overly simplifying further messes things up. I think some of it can be studied, but other portions not. Anyway, I can give you my opinion on individual aspects of your theory later. But life is complex and hard enough without ideas of ideals being pushed into people, imo. Id rather train people to see warning signs and to listen to their actual experience with an individual while realizing another member of that type might be very different. Okay, we can get into more later, maybe.









Ideal Matches and the harm from this idea


I can think of many problems believing in an ideal match can create. 1. I am in a long-term relationship with someone wonderful, the relationship is rewarding and beneficial—but they aren’t the “right” type— so it must be doomed? I should break up right? Their type is supposed to be scary...




www.personalitycafe.com


----------



## ciel sos infel

Windblownhair said:


> No. It’s not like I’m applying here questions to every interaction I have….more like an interaction that has potential to be upsetting, like providing direction, feedback, criticism. And I work in education, which means the dividends this care pays are enormous (in terms of student/colleague trust and engagement).
> 
> If I _did _have to use to that frequently, then absolutely it sounds exhausting. I’d be blowing the proverbial Fe fuse more often than not.
> 
> Cutting and pasting out of order, since the bit I disagree with is the energy expenditure for ENTJs.
> (Context of experiences: INFJ wife, ENTJ husband, married 14 years, late 30s)
> 
> ENTJ feelings are very quiet, in the sense that they are straightforward and uncomplicated, but also in the sense that they extrude very little into the outer world. This means that for someone like me, that spends a lot of time more dialed into how others are feeling than how I necessarily am feeling, it’s a welcome respite. I have to the quiet to catch up on my own personal feelings without a lot of static distracting me.


Hmm... Maybe it's different for me since I'm a guy and because of that my emotional insight goes ignored by default and I don't even get to use my Fe but I don't think that INFJs should be in positions that cause them to use Fe that much - because ENFJs are better at that. Bear with me, it's difficult to frame what I'm thinking about right now into something coherent, already deleted several sentences.
Your work demands a lot of Fe use from you which is why you're overloaded and find it comforting to not have to engage in your husbands emotional sphere as much. But I don't think this is how it should be. That is not a position an INFJ should be in. INFJ is more comfortable working out problems via Ni-Ti, though yea, I can't think of a 'job' in which to use it.
What is more processing your feelings alone doesn't give you the correct result, this bit is very important. We have Fi critic. That means we only get the negative part of the picture and it's undervaluing towards ourselves. We can't see meaning, we can only see what's meaningless. We can only see where we erred morally and not the good that we did. While I understand that a time alone is needed to go through all that Fe content you've taken in and edit the wrong bits out through Fi critic ("that's not me, that's against my values, that's immoral - so I have to cut it out and reject it") but you're not getting the positive processing done. Fi is needed to simulate your identity for you and like I've said that simulation is more accurate when N-S functions are the same. Another point to consider is that Fi critic + Fi inferior won't be meeting each other right in the middle and that middle point is the true perception.

I need to talk with some ENFJ that would be honest with me. I'm not entirely sure how Fi nemesis works - do they run away from that processing to a point that they will also run away from passive Fi and optimistic Fi is needed to force them or is it not that way at all.



Windblownhair said:


> And the amount of emotional feedback is very analogous. We always end our day with a long walk together, talking about the day and peppering in our feelings about what’s going on. It’s comforting because we both see similar themes weaving through our individual days and interactions with people, and to get out as much as we want to get out, and then to run out of steam at the same time.
> 
> Again, not feeling a perpetual energy expenditure or fight for balance because it isn’t something that needs to happen continuously. Like my previous example with the trust fall, it took a few attempts to ascertain that when my ENTJ said he wanted this straightforwardly, he _actually _wanted them straightforwardly. But once that was settled, then it’s like “this is how we roll.” It isn’t an effort to re-figure it out or be something different. It’s just choosing which tool in the toolbox is best for the project.


That ENTJ I've talked to also wanted it straightforwardly and when I did it like that I got burned. I don't know to what degree an ENTJ can understand how fragile they are on emotional grounds and they will try to deceive their environment about it because they choose to harvest respect via Te (and in that sense they're as fake as a stereotypical ENFJ). Maybe your husband didn't go about it that way, maybe you haven't blurted out something hurtful enough. I sometimes forget to use Fe and I don't think it's only me because the same situation occured in that show, few scenes of which I've linked in the OP (beggining of Chapter 3 unless I'm mistaken).

There's one more thing I want to ask you about. Talking with an INTP, very well versed in cognitive functions, we came to a conclusion that the trickster function has a mocking attitude towards hero function it targets. He told me how silly Se hero users are to him while Se parent users didn't have that effect at all on him. I recall seeing my ex ENTJ boss putting his chest forward and sitting as proudly in his supervisor chair as a peacock. That didn't cause me to feel any degree of respect towards him, on the contrary, it seemed very silly to me.
Can you recall if any conflict happened in that area?


----------



## ciel sos infel

Windblownhair said:


> I really wish the Baron-Tieger study had sliced the data differently (or additionally)! But I’m guessing they didn’t have a large enough sample size to draw statistically significant conclusions once it would have been broken down far. That’s got to be over a hundred data points just to hit each pairing once, let alone establishing patterns.


I've had a conversation about that study recently so I'll paste the relevant bits with the problems I have with it:

"Anyway it's so nonsensical to me to have the results summed up by NF or NT or whatever. Marriage of INFJ and INFJ is a completely different beast than INFJ and INFP for example. The NF value gives me nothing. How did they even choose people for experiment like that. Who the hell was married to each of the 16 types for 10+ years to be able to confidently tell which type suited them the best? Isn't it just that the NF value is overinflated because NF marriages are more likely to happen than INFJ-INTJ (both being rather rare compared to INFJ-ENFP situation where there's a lot more ENFPs so it's easier for the marriage happen)?

What I'm trying to say is that there's a fundamental problem about a feeling of content or satisfaction - it heavily relies on reference points. If I was starved a simple meal will be a godsend. If I was brought up in a palace then I would shun it.

Additionally there this issue with INFJ-ENFP and any ego-shadow pairing and that is, if they don't break apart quickly, pairings like this reinforce each other's preexisting delusions which warps their ability to correctly judge their own situation. For example I thought that ENFP I was with was just being random and funny when she was actually retarded saying some things (ideas resulting from Ti trickster). I didn't perceive that, I was fooled by mine Te trickster. When my ESTJ mother lashes on my ISTP father with her Se critic my ISTP father just takes it without ability to defend himself, because it echoes what his Si critic says. That entire pairing is an illusion and it doesn't matter if that illusion is satisfying because it is damaging to both people and arrests their development.

When it works it works because you give up on using your negative functions and rely on your partners positive function to provide the feedback and it's wonderful then - because every burden that weighed on your psyche is taken away! But that's also an illusion. If I rely on EN_P's security about their looks provided by Si inferior then I'm deceiving myself because that Si inferior is only confident in how it looks because it is utterly blind. It cannot give me any feedback on how to improve my Se. So I'd stay in my default state with a feeling of satisfaction - which feeling is actually worthless because it takes away the motivation to improve which comes from a sense of insecurity ingrained in inferior function.

The way _NFJ + _NFP relationship can work is when both give up on developing their shadow functions and relay completely on the functions of their partner. It feels wonderful to have the burdens of your psyche taken away from you. But if you don't face those burdens you don't grow. And that neglected growth might manifest in either psychological issues or midlife crisis etc. because eventually the personality, that you've refused to spend your time in, might force you to give it that time. It's a fast-food solution.

_NTP has half the fast-food of _NFP and the other half will echo our personal delusions. For example INTP will have very high self-respect, to a point of delusion, that's one of the manifestations of Ti hero. ENFJ will have minimal self-respect and will get overwhelmed by Ti hero without much resistance and look up to it. Notice though that even if that doesn't cause immediate conflicts because Ti inferior respects highly Ti hero which highly respects itself and Ti hero disrespects Ti inferio which disrespects itself - it's actually a very bad situation for them both. The higher Ti is the more it tends to overestimate itself, the lower the more it understimates itself (opposite true for Te - ENTJs fear they're worthless via Ti nemesis and that's what propells them into workaholism - being with INTP doubles that effect - my ISTP father didn't grow more conscientious when getting pummeled by my ESTJ's mother's Se critic, he merely kept taking more responsibilities and tasks, which he didn't finish, and dug himself in deeper just to be able to angrily reply at the end of the day to a slightest mention about an obligation he promised to fulfill but didn't: "what, do you think I was laying around all day!?"). Together they don't reach for that golden mean, which is the true perception, but merely reinforce their preconceived notions about themselves.

Does it explain how individual's perception of 'satisfaction' doesn't give us the full picture?"


----------



## ciel sos infel

Llyralen said:


> The theories just don’t pan out in real life,


You need to support your statement with at least an anecdotal example for which I can give you a counter example.



Llyralen said:


> and if you want to get personal and battle from a what I can see versus what you can see kind of space, then my functions are all geared to be able to see all the flaws in yours— in my opinion, that just means we need to listen and learn from each other if you can expand more and if I can focus— which I will do when I get a chunk of time.


All I want is the truth. If I'm being belligerent it's only to motivate you to challenge me on that instead of shielding yourself with this or that excuse. You've made a critical claim, now I need you to support it or counter my counterarguments.



Llyralen said:


> Besides, you aren’t thinking of the damage that can happen when people believe this stuff— but when I think about your functions it would be less damaging for a person like yourself than a person like me to rely on an incorrect theory in areas of the heart.


Yes, because I'm thinking of how much an accurate understanding of our deep psychological needs and how to fulfill them can help people. Your statements are baseless. Your judgements lack any support. I won't kneel to petty assault. You cannot defeat my position with air of superiority or credibility. You either support your argument or it is of no use to anyone, since it's not informative. It's just your opinion on the matter.



Llyralen said:


> To answer your first question—some of us are much more highly perceptive about ourselves and that is much more reliable information for some of us and must be listened to.


How is that measured?



Llyralen said:


> Also what is perceived as truly happening around me in this feeling world— it doesn’t match what you’ve got. We should talk. I guess I understand that might be a lot of work. For both of us. I’m willing, though., since you’ve put so much into this.


I'm open to feedback and communication. In my experience it's other people who usually cut the conversation short, not me. If you can provide the same attitude we can get to the bottom of this, whether its mine or your misperception.


----------



## ciel sos infel

JennyJukes said:


> I'm confused how people are supposed to prove you wrong on a theory that you have provided no evidence for either other than assumptions as what should/shouldn't work? Then when your theory doesn't make sense to other people, you put the onus on them to prove_ you_ wrong?


I'm sure you can provide an example of me acting that way so we can analyze it and see if this accusation holds water.

I have provided evidence for pretty much every mechanism that I've observed. Anecdotal evidence but that's all we can have. Just because you formalize anecdotal data in form of questionnaires doesn't mean it's not anecdotal anymore. Sure there are regions of the brain that correspond with particular cognitive functions but I can't imagine how brain activity would help us to find an answer, but maybe I'm wrong.

The mechanisms I have outlined are *observable*. I didn't have a vision that I now expect you to believe. It's not beyond your reach. All you need is competence in understanding the areas of governance of each cognitive function and interactions between types analogous to those I've described. So you can prove me wrong by pointing out a flaw in any of the points that I've used to arrive at that final conclusion. For example my point about Ti hero being overly confident in itself, even to a point of delusion - if you find another explanation for what I've noticed, one that explains a situation that my explanation doesn't serve to explain - then it's fairly likely that I've been in the wrong.



JennyJukes said:


> Sure, wouldn't the world be great if every thought we had was right and other people must simply accept it?


If something is true then opposition to it is a wilful ignorance or delusion and both lead to harm. But don't try to make it as if I'm forcing anyone into accepting my understanding. It is to be accepted because it is correct or rejected because it is incorrect and if you think that it is incorrect then I'd like to know the reasons why.



JennyJukes said:


> First of all, there is _no _such thing as a perfect pairing. Not in MBTI terms, not in any terms. Humans are not perfect and neither are relationships. So I think it's a moot point in the first place for any of these many theories to claim there's such a thing as a perfect pairing.


You've said that you've read the OP. I'll call to your attention the first sentence of Chapter 11. Also notice that I've very carefully worded the OP's title. I'm talking about type pairings and not relationships. This argument attacks a claim of "perfect relationship" and I did not make that claim. Is that understandable? It wasn't to the people that agreed with you - this is how much people's agreement matters btw, for any Te user reading.



JennyJukes said:


> Second of all, MBTI itself is based on theory and not fact


Oh yea, so despite saying that "Yes, this requires a presupposition that 8 cognitive functions and 4 sides of mind are a thing however both these theories are individually verifiable through introspection of your personal experience." I have to argue the validity of cognitive functions yet again. Here's something less theretical to chew on:








Your Myers-Briggs® Personality Type and Your Brain


Discover the science behind your Myers-Briggs personality type. Learn how each type uses their brain in different ways.



www.psychologyjunkie.com





Like I've said - understand the cognitive functions to a degree that allows you to see people acting out their 'cognitive scripts' and there will be no doubt in your mind. If you don't understand cognitive functions then I can't show anything to you. I see no purpose in trying to prove the validity of cognitive functions to people who are already into typology. Go look up Dr John Beebe's research if you're doubtful about negative functions, I haven't but I didn't need to - I've observed them very clearly in myself and you can do so too most likely if you have Ti child.



JennyJukes said:


> - if the theory is wrong then conclusions made by said theory are inherently wrong too.


That statement is correct, but the theory is not wrong. Maybe it's incomplete, maybe it has some bits wrong but it very accurately describes the decision making process to a point allowing me to tell an INTJ how his relationship with an INFP would end up being and him telling me that I was scarily accurate to how it went. The usefulness of theoretical model lies in it's ability to correctly predict outcomes. It's not 100% accurate but the accuracy is substantial, the patterns repeat because we fall into those patterns unless we consciously resist them.



JennyJukes said:


> Third, relationships are so complex that there simply cannot be one theory or even one fact that determines an ideal pairing.


And that's the same as the first point and people who agreed with you wouldn't even point that out to you.



JennyJukes said:


> Your theory says I should date an ISTJ - my life experiences and culture say otherwise.


Tell me your life experiences and I'll compare them to the negative experiences I've had with INTJs and I'll see if they show the same pattern - which is a result of immaturity (not checking in with introverted critic during decision making process) and not misalignment of the functions.



JennyJukes said:


> MBTI says I should be a nurse - my life experience says otherwise too (because how can I be a nurse if I have a blood phobia?).


It's a stereotypical profession that ISFJs very often find themselves in but that does not mean that you should be a nurse. For example I don't think that cogntive functions explain who has the talent for singing. I've seen a brilliant ENTJ singer, probably due to ISFP aspirational, but not every ENTJ will be a brilliant singer. Every ENTJ will have some potential in ISFP area though but it can manifest in various ways. Maybe some of them will be connoisseurs of fine arts, maybe some will paint themselves but never get anywhere beyond hobbyist level with it. Cognitive functions don't tell us everything about a person but they tell a lot. I'm not basing my argumentation on stereotypes present in the descriptions of MBTI types. I base my ideas on interactions between cognitive functions themselves, it's a more fundamental layer therefore more accurate. I'm thinking in terms of causes not symptoms.



JennyJukes said:


> Sure ISFJ women and ISTJ men may be the ideal match in previous generations where women were forced to be housewives and men went out to work, but our generation is different and our ideals can change with societal expectations too. Prove me wrong.


You shouldn't be as reliant on societal expectations as much as you are. Society is very likely to go astray because in group people skip consistency checks of introverted processes and rely on extroverted decision making which is more fluent and appealing but cuts the corners. You should spend time with your Fi critic to be able to confidently decide on your own what isn't you, like I do. Sure you have your sense of duty but your duty is primarily not to society but to your husband and his towards you.
Furthermore an ISTJ doesn't need to be that sort of guy you're imagining him as. Sure it's how he presents himself on the outside, to protect his more fragile aspects of psyche, but just below that is an ESTP, his shadow. Next form of ISTJ is ENFP. Yes, his main motivations and decisions will remain in the ego but he can be as free spirited as an ENFP, for a limited time. These are the two types an ISFJ feels the most erotic attraction towards, I'd assume, but going for either directly causes great many issues since these people needs are completely different to those of an ISFJ. But I'm repeating myself at this point, you've read the OP.

I think I've proven your points wrong but I'm open to hearing your rebuttal.


----------



## ciel sos infel

Llyralen said:


> @ciel sos infel This is the thread I mentioned. If you read through it, there are links and information on studies. Thankfully @Windblownhair provided information from a book reporting studies.


And unless it's a different study (the one I'm referring to is Barron-Tieger from 2000) then here's my rebuttal to it:








The perfect MBTI type romantic pairings Ver 8.1 New...


“There is no accounting for taste” The assumptions about what different functions/types crave becomes more obviously false with more observation and greater sample size. If you broke this up and asked each group if they agree you might see that there is a lot here that isn’t true. I think...




www.personalitycafe.com







Llyralen said:


> I think the biggest dangers in all of this is due to prejudice and misunderstanding how functions work.


I agree in that broad sense that if someone doesn't understand cognitive functions they'll propose the wrong pairings (INFJ-ESTP or INFJ-ENFP). I'd love to hear more about how I've misunderstood cognitive functions, if it's actually the case. So far nothing from you on that front.



Llyralen said:


> Of course I have my own opinions about compatibility— pushing my opinion into others wouldn’t help anything, though.


And where do you get the sense that I'm pushing anything on anyone?
Not challenging your opinion doesn't help anything either btw. Nobody gets invalidated but nobody is proven right either. I think that hugbox mentality poses even a greater danger than exchanging a, supposedly, faulty idea. People need the capability to think for themselves and I understand why that's something very worrying if you're an INTJ like I suspect that you are.
Do you see how a balance between a responsible and a childishly naive approach needs to be struck?



Llyralen said:


> There is too much variation in lives and experiences and families that make it so that there is no consistent function that anyone needs or craves. Individuals respect or don’t respect certain functions in others for their own interesting reasons.


These reasons are not so interesting as it might appear without understanding the underlying reasons for those differences. Most of them can be summed with levels of maturity - for example I might fall for an ESTP when I haven't understood that I have it in me and that I don't need it in the external. Then the feeling of inferiority towards an ESTP goes away and with it the attraction because now I see all the things that ESTP screws over, the illusion that they are like that because they've overcome all of my challenges vanishes because I see that they just went in another way, I'm annoyed that they do everything backwards to how I'd do it and I can't justify their way of living and how they use their capabilities (which I also have access to but I'm not using them the way they do). Other discrepancies between people of the same type are due to differences in data points (experiences and previous conclusions). I found that INFJs would end up echoing my conclusions on certain topics - not because they were stealing from me but because their mind work in a very similar way. Provided similar data points same type of person will reach similar conclusions.



Llyralen said:


> Idealization in functions usually comes from a lack of familiarity with it.


I don't understand that statement. What do you consider idealization? Point me to an example in what I've wrote.



Llyralen said:


> Prejudice and overly simplifying further messes things up.


I've talked to an INFJ in love with an ENFP and when I've told him about the misunderstandings I've had with an ENFP he started noticing similar things in his own relationship. I'm aware of my prejudices so I can go around them.
How do you know it's *overly* simplified? It is simplified yes, but that simplification is more like distillation. I'm removing the unnecessary fluff and going to the fundamental causes.
INTP will use their Ti to build very complex, high fidelity model. Imagine a high resolution panoramic picture, that's a good allegory for it. Now try to find Waldo in it.

I've been seeing it over and over again - people fail to pick up on simple errors. For most of my life I thought that it is me that is retarded because I've projected my intellectual integrity on other people and though that they have surely thought everything through like I would. They don't. Here's an example of an obvious blindness. An ENTP, right on great many things, fails to notice that there's a fundamental problem between the expectations of ENTJ and INTP when it comes to love because even though he correctly states that ENTJs need unwavering loyalty he also says:
"What type is the most likely to have avoidant attachment style? (...) INTP" 




The problem with _NTPs is that they don't use Ni enough to simulate consequences out of patterns. I do consistency checks in both Ni and Ti realms so I'll notice things that they usually won't on their own.



Llyralen said:


> I think some of it can be studied, but other portions not.


Problem is not a whole lot of people can see as far and as deep as Ni hero can.



Llyralen said:


> Anyway, I can give you my opinion on individual aspects of your theory later.


I'll be waiting.



Llyralen said:


> But life is complex and hard enough without ideas of ideals being pushed into people, imo. Id rather train people to see warning signs and to listen to their actual experience with an individual while realizing another member of that type might be very different. Okay, we can get into more later, maybe.


And I'd rather train them to think for themselves instead of relying on red flags which are nothing more than shortcuts (haha over simplifications if you will), a mean to skip the process of consistency checking. Ever been rejected or ghosted because you've done a faux pas via Fe trickster which someone took as a 'warning sign'? Yea...

EDIT: BUT, and it's a but that deserves the utmost attention, both approaches are actually valid - only in different situations. That's why opposite polarity opposite position alignment works very good in a team. An ENTP has Te critic available to pick up on warning signs, I only have Te trickster though which... let's just say it isn't very reliable so I need Te parent a lot more than ENTP does.



Llyralen said:


> Ideal Matches and the harm from this idea
> 
> 
> I can think of many problems believing in an ideal match can create. 1. I am in a long-term relationship with someone wonderful, the relationship is rewarding and beneficial—but they aren’t the “right” type— so it must be doomed? I should break up right? Their type is supposed to be scary...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.personalitycafe.com


I'll reply to that OP in it's own thread later.


----------



## Llyralen

ciel sos infel said:


> And unless it's a different study (the one I'm referring to is Barron-Tieger from 2000) then here's my rebuttal to it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The perfect MBTI type romantic pairings Ver 8.1 New...
> 
> 
> “There is no accounting for taste” The assumptions about what different functions/types crave becomes more obviously false with more observation and greater sample size. If you broke this up and asked each group if they agree you might see that there is a lot here that isn’t true. I think...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.personalitycafe.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree in that broad sense that if someone doesn't understand cognitive functions they'll propose the wrong pairings (INFJ-ESTP or INFJ-ENFP). I'd love to hear more about how I've misunderstood cognitive functions, if it's actually the case. So far nothing from you on that front.
> 
> 
> And where do you get the sense that I'm pushing anything on anyone?
> Not challenging your opinion doesn't help anything either btw. Nobody gets invalidated but nobody is proven right either. I think that hugbox mentality poses even a greater danger than exchanging a, supposedly, faulty idea. People need the capability to think for themselves and I understand why that's something very worrying if you're an INTJ like I suspect that you are.
> Do you see how a balance between a responsible and a childishly naive approach needs to be struck?
> 
> 
> These reasons are not so interesting as it might appear without understanding the underlying reasons for those differences. Most of them can be summed with levels of maturity - for example I might fall for an ESTP when I haven't understood that I have it in me and that I don't need it in the external. Then the feeling of inferiority towards an ESTP goes away and with it the attraction because now I see all the things that ESTP screws over, the illusion that they are like that because they've overcome all of my challenges vanishes because I see that they just went in another way, I'm annoyed that they do everything backwards to how I'd do it and I can't justify their way of living and how they use their capabilities (which I also have access to but I'm not using them the way they do). Other discrepancies between people of the same type are due to differences in data points (experiences and previous conclusions). I found that INFJs would end up echoing my conclusions on certain topics - not because they were stealing from me but because their mind work in a very similar way. Provided similar data points same type of person will reach similar conclusions.
> 
> 
> I don't understand that statement. What do you consider idealization? Point me to an example in what I've wrote.
> 
> 
> I've talked to an INFJ in love with an ENFP and when I've told him about the misunderstandings I've had with an ENFP he started noticing similar things in his own relationship. I'm aware of my prejudices so I can go around them.
> How do you know it's *overly* simplified? It is simplified yes, but that simplification is more like distillation. I'm removing the unnecessary fluff and going to the fundamental causes.
> INTP will use their Ti to build very complex, high fidelity model. Imagine a high resolution panoramic picture, that's a good allegory for it. Now try to find Waldo in it.
> 
> I've been seeing it over and over again - people fail to pick up on simple errors. For most of my life I thought that it is me that is retarded because I've projected my intellectual integrity on other people and though that they have surely thought everything through like I would. They don't. Here's an example of an obvious blindness. An ENTP, right on great many things, fails to notice that there's a fundamental problem between the expectations of ENTJ and INTP when it comes to love because even though he correctly states that ENTJs need unwavering loyalty he also says:
> "What type is the most likely to have avoidant attachment style? (...) INTP"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with _NTPs is that they don't use Ni enough to simulate consequences out of patterns. I do consistency checks in both Ni and Ti realms so I'll notice things that they usually won't on their own.
> 
> 
> Problem is not a whole lot of people can see as far and as deep as Ni hero can.
> 
> 
> I'll be waiting.
> 
> 
> And I'd rather train them to think for themselves instead of relying on red flags which are nothing more than shortcuts (haha over simplifications if you will), a mean to skip the process of consistency checking. Ever been rejected or ghosted because you've done a faux pas via Fe trickster which someone took as a 'warning sign'? Yea...
> 
> EDIT: BUT, and it's a but that deserves the utmost attention, both approaches are actually valid - only in different situations. That's why opposite polarity opposite position alignment works very good in a team. An ENTP has Te critic available to pick up on warning signs, I only have Te trickster though which... let's just say it isn't very reliable so I need Te parent a lot more than ENTP does.
> 
> 
> I'll reply to that OP in it's own thread later.


Whoa…I think I’ll let you stew a while first so that we can maybe actually talk at some point, if I still want to. For me, I’d be taking time with you from a point of interest in the subject but also an interest in mutual good will and mutual interest. If you don’t think I have got ideas you want and you don’t understand I’m speaking from a place of kindness. Of course I’m Ne dom— we don’t think of ideas/patterns that are there or not there to be seen or not seen as very personal, because our perception of patterns is extroverted, which is probably why you’re reacting. I can sympathize. I probably should have snuck up slowly and tugged at one corner of what you wrote if I really wanted you to listen. Plus it sounds like you are prejudiced on types and not worried about messing up people’s love. Love, right? The thing that is supposed to help us through our imperfections and differences? Does it factor anywhere? Okay, I get it, though. See you around.


----------



## ciel sos infel

Llyralen said:


> Whoa…I think I’ll let you stew a while first so that we can maybe actually talk at some point, if I still want to.


Either you have arguments or you don't and since you're squirming then you don't.



Llyralen said:


> For me, I’d be taking time with you from a point of interest in the subject but also an interest in mutual good will and mutual interest. If you don’t think I have got ideas you want and you don’t understand I’m speaking from a place of kindness.


I'm here to gather arguments against what I've proposed, not kindness.



Llyralen said:


> Of course I’m Ne dom—


Now that other thread, the one against ideal pairings, makes all the sense in the world. It also explains how most of the points came from a position of assuming utter irresponsibility. Those questions at the end also sounded too weird for an INTJ.
Your functions are not geared to find flaws in mine. You can guilt trip me with your delusionally self-assured self-love of Fi parent and fool my Te trickster into believing you with your Te child. That is if I let you do that but the trick doesn't work when I can see through it.



Llyralen said:


> we don’t think of ideas/patterns that are there or not there to be seen or not seen as very personal, because our perception of patterns is extroverted, which is probably why you’re reacting. I can sympathize.


Perhaps you can sympathize but I don't think you actually understand what you've just said.



Llyralen said:


> I probably should have snuck up slowly and tugged at one corner of what you wrote if I really wanted you to listen.


No, hitting me with what you had would be the right option. The problem is that you have nothing.



Llyralen said:


> Plus it sounds like you are prejudiced on types and not worried about messing up people’s love. Love, right? The thing that is supposed to help us through our imperfections and differences? Does it factor anywhere? Okay, I get it, though. See you around.


The amount of actual arguments against what I've proposed: 0.
You can talk about love all you want but love isn't about the talk, it's about following through.
Thank God I'm now impervious to ENFP bullshit.


----------



## maximum danger

My theory of people who quote every individual statement are weirdos proven right again.


----------



## ciel sos infel

maximum danger said:


> My theory of people who quote every individual statement are weirdos proven right again.


Irrelevant.
EDIT: There's a bit of unintended relevance and that is ESTP does not fit with INFJ at all. Also coming to a thread and voicing one's off-topic opinion shows the overestimation of one's importance that I've been noticing in high Ti.


----------



## maximum danger

ciel sos infel said:


> Irrelevant.
> EDIT: There's a bit of unintended relevance and that is ESTP does not fit with INFJ at all. Also coming to a thread and voicing one's off-topic opinion shows the overestimation of one's importance that I've been noticing in high Ti.


That's pretty good. I don't disagree, but it's irrelevant to my point.


----------



## ciel sos infel

maximum danger said:


> That's pretty good. I don't disagree, but it's irrelevant to my point.


This brings some memories... You're doing the exact same thing my ESTP brother did. I felt a lot of distaste for that imitation but at least nowadays I know why it happens and that makes it a little more understandable since he was just trying to learn his aspirational form by directly copying.

Anyway I want to keep this thread about which types are most optimal for each other so that theory correlating non normative social behaviours to overly detailed answering habits in online communication should go to it's own thread.


----------



## lilacleia16

ciel sos infel said:


> You can always ask about the things that I've made confusing.
> 
> Why do you consider ego shadow (ISFP-ESFJ) to be a pairing valid enough to recommend it?
> It cripples the development of your lower functions by taking away the incentive to reach a level of competence with them (the built in insecurity) without providing any helpful feedback on how to improve them. ESFJ is Te ignorant and you're Ti ignorant. Neither can help the other improve in these areas at all, neither even sees that the other lacks something. My ESTJ-ISTP parents remained emotionally daft for my entire upbringing and my ESTJ mother only starting mildly improving after I started explaining to her what she is doing wrong. It's not how it should be. I've seen INTJs before a relationship with an _NFJ and after they've been in one and they act completely differently when they have been given that feedback from high Fe.
> 
> Next problem is that high positions have their default delusions reinforced. With Fe nemesis you're afraid about other people's motivations and ESFJ is afraid of their own motivations and that doubles up and makes them permanently guilt tripped and completely focused on Fe to make penance for it. Nemesis is by default paranoid, it overestimates the scale of the problem and sometimes even picks up on false positives. Ego-shadow is abusive!


Hmm…I consider ISFP and ENFJ the best match. What do you have to say about their compatibility? I don’t like ISTPs because of their need for so much personal space. I find it neglectful.


----------



## ciel sos infel

lilacleia16 said:


> Hmm…I consider ISFP and ENFJ the best match. What do you have to say about their compatibility? I don’t like ISTPs because of their need for so much personal space. I find it neglectful.


Initially it might be neglectful or cold and here's where the brilliance of the pairing comes into play. When things work out like they should _(there isn't some heavy trauma or disorder in the way)_ ISFP's Fi hero will act like a magnet that pulls Fe inferior of ISTP up until they, temporarily, jump into their ENFJ aspirational. I haven't seen my father show any ENFJ behaviours but that's because being with my mother cut off his stimulus to improve.

There is something about ISFP - ENFJ. I've heard about INFJs getting into some very passionate relationships with ESFPs. When something is too passionate though, it becomes unstable, as a general rule.

Problems between Fi hero / Fe nemesis and Fe hero / Fi nemesis will be the same as with ego-shadow. They will still double the shadow function's intensity and that's very bad. It leads Fe to become hyper needy and smothering because Fi nemesis, shouldering double the pressure, gets paranoid that it's not good enough for you to stay together.

Te inferior will get into a lot of misunderstandings with Ti inferior - it won't be felt as much as if it was between Te child and Ti child but it will be an issue. While ISFP-ISTP provokes ISTP to develop their inferior ISFP-ENFJ puts it's developement on hold by default, as in ego-shadow. The insecurity is taken away and, while it feels great, it's detrimental because you never reach your aspirational form. But what if that pleasant state is only temporary and a result of someone's growth rather than lack of it? I think it's much better to do it that way.

Ni parent Ni child interaction is a slightly different problem. I've heard people say that it helps development of the lower function in the pairing, and it does, temporarily at least. It's learning through imitation. My Ti started waking up after I've talked more to my ENTP high school friend but if he was a girl and I married that girl then she would be the one dealing with Ti challenges in the family _(yes NeTi is not exactly the same as NiTi but still, being able to rely on the other person for something I should be doing but I'm insecure about will probably get me to run away from that responsibility)_. So Ni parent will loom over your Ni child and, while you'd have learned a lot from it, it won't let you handle Ni tasks when it's important and you'll get less chances to truly prove yourself through your ENTJ aspirational form and gain that sense of fulfillment that comes from it.
Next thing to deal with is Ne critic on Ne trickster interaction and I don't know if I'll be able to give a good example of it but Fi critic on Fi trickster interaction is loathing. Se parent on Se child are the same, only the roles get reversed between ISFP and ENFJ.

So an ENFJ will hate how irresponsible you are, partially being envious of you, and you'll hate how stuck up and critical he is. That's a conflict fuel that just bleeds out energy. In ISFP-ISTP situation once you'd say "okay we're being way too irresponsible, I gotta do something about it" and deal with it via ENTJ aspirational and in other situations the ISTP would say "okay, that ain't gonna work that way, I need to fix it before it's too late" and he'll jump into ENFJ aspirational to deal with it. With both aspirational forms you cover most of the ground that there is - you solve problems requiring Te, he issues requiring Fe.

What I mean to convey is that, when things fall into place as they should, by being with an ISTP instead of ENFJ, you're not sacrificing the pleasant moments that come from ISFP-ENFJ interaction while you get something so much more stable and fulfilling in the long run, because it gives place for each of you to fulfill each of the roles of each of your sub-personalities.

Have you ever fell for a fictional character btw? There's a pattern I've observed in me, and several other people online. I've only ever fell for two types and these types end up being mistyped a lot.


----------



## lilacleia16

ciel sos infel said:


> Initially it might be neglectful or cold and here's where the brilliance of the pairing comes into play. When things work out like they should _(there isn't some heavy trauma or disorder in the way)_ ISFP's Fi hero will act like a magnet that pulls Fe inferior of ISTP up until they, temporarily, jump into their ENFJ aspirational. I haven't seen my father show any ENFJ behaviours but that's because being with my mother cut off his stimulus to improve.
> 
> There is something about ISFP - ENFJ. I've heard about INFJs getting into some very passionate relationships with ESFPs. When something is too passionate though, it becomes unstable, as a general rule.
> 
> Problems between Fi hero / Fe nemesis and Fe hero / Fi nemesis will be the same as with ego-shadow. They will still double the shadow function's intensity and that's very bad. It leads Fe to become hyper needy and smothering because Fi nemesis, shouldering double the pressure, gets paranoid that it's not good enough for you to stay together.
> 
> Te inferior will get into a lot of misunderstandings with Ti inferior - it won't be felt as much as if it was between Te child and Ti child but it will be an issue. While ISFP-ISTP provokes ISTP to develop their inferior ISFP-ENFJ puts it's developement on hold by default, as in ego-shadow. The insecurity is taken away and, while it feels great, it's detrimental because you never reach your aspirational form. But what if that pleasant state is only temporary and a result of someone's growth rather than lack of it? I think it's much better to do it that way.
> 
> Ni parent Ni child interaction is a slightly different problem. I've heard people say that it helps development of the lower function in the pairing, and it does, temporarily at least. It's learning through imitation. My Ti started waking up after I've talked more to my ENTP high school friend but if he was a girl and I married that girl then she would be the one dealing with Ti challenges in the family _(yes NeTi is not exactly the same as NiTi but still, being able to rely on the other person for something I should be doing but I'm insecure about will probably get me to run away from that responsibility)_. So Ni parent will loom over your Ni child and, while you'd have learned a lot from it, it won't let you handle Ni tasks when it's important and you'll get less chances to truly prove yourself through your ENTJ aspirational form and gain that sense of fulfillment that comes from it.
> Next thing to deal with is Ne critic on Ne trickster interaction and I don't know if I'll be able to give a good example of it but Fi critic on Fi trickster interaction is loathing. Se parent on Se child are the same, only the roles get reversed between ISFP and ENFJ.
> 
> So an ENFJ will hate how irresponsible you are, partially being envious of you, and you'll hate how stuck up and critical he is. That's a conflict fuel that just bleeds out energy. In ISFP-ISTP situation once you'd say "okay we're being way too irresponsible, I gotta do something about it" and deal with it via ENTJ aspirational and in other situations the ISTP would say "okay, that ain't gonna work that way, I need to fix it before it's too late" and he'll jump into ENFJ aspirational to deal with it. With both aspirational forms you cover most of the ground that there is - you solve problems requiring Te, he issues requiring Fe.
> 
> What I mean to convey is that, when things fall into place as they should, by being with an ISTP instead of ENFJ, you're not sacrificing the pleasant moments that come from ISFP-ENFJ interaction while you get something so much more stable and fulfilling in the long run, because it gives place for each of you to fulfill each of the roles of each of your sub-personalities.
> 
> Have you ever fell for a fictional character btw? There's a pattern I've observed in me, and several other people online. I've only ever fell for two types and these types end up being mistyped a lot.


Geralt from the Witcher but not his body…his personality. He’s calming to me. Interestingly enough, on PerC some of the girls typed him as ISTP which made me more curious about your theory. Does he seem ISTP to you?


----------



## lilacleia16

Ok so help me understand ISFP and ISTP compatibility with this chart. Compare parent with child etc…I need this visual aid to get it and a personal example.


----------



## ciel sos infel

lilacleia16 said:


> Geralt from the Witcher but not his body…his personality. He’s calming to me. Interestingly enough, on PerC some of the girls typed him as ISTP which made me more curious about your theory. Does he seem ISTP to you?


When it's not about the body, but rather the character traits, I think it's very telling.
Hmm... A lot of people typed him as an ISTJ on personality database, but I don't know why. The second is ISTP and that makes more sense to me.

Let's think what would allow Geralt to go in the presence of kings and emperors and not feel out of place. I'd say high Ti producing a lot internal justifications for self worth. And yet he stays out of politics as much as he can, at least from what I remember from the books, I guess there are other choices to be made in the games themselves, I don't remember clearly. He strives to remain 'his own man', to be independent. He has connections, he could live a comfortable life and yet he chooses to wander, in the rain, through the mud, drenched in rotting blood of some ghoul or fiend - that's sounds like Si critic.

What is he? Some warrior mage guarding some arcane secrets of his craft? No, he's basically a pest exterminator. I remember this feeling that as fantastical as his everyday life is, he treats what he does as a job. He travels from town to town, not knowing where the next commission is gonna be, not planning much at all _(maybe when targetting a specific monster but it's more like "okay so for this creature I need this, this, this and this and rest is just execution" - these preparations aren't very complex or detailed, except for when some wight requires a very specific ritual)_, relying in the Ni child luck. I don't think that unstructured lifestyle is something an ISTJ would find themselves comfortable in, and Geralt loves it.

What made him unrealistic to me as an ISTP was his eloquence and philosophical flare he displays every now and then. Never seen much of that in my father, however, I do recall stories from his youth when he was into photography and that he read adventure novels whenever he had free time, so he wasn't always that detached, emotionless craftsman I know him as. Maybe he sacrificed that part of himself seeing no meaning in pursuing it _(meaning, as emotional justification, is produced by Fi and ISTPs have none in the ego)_. Some people have typed Demolition D as an ISTP, and, well, his review of the original Neon Genesis Evangelion was simply profound and he doesn't really struck me as an INFP, INTP, INFJ or any other type. What I'm meaning to say is that with ISTPs there's a lot of variance, so as mary-sueish Geralt is, it might not be impossible for an ISTP to have some of those more intellectual traits as well.

So yea, to sum up, Geralt in my estimation is an ISTP.


----------



## lilacleia16

I’m trying to understand but how would my demon aspect as Ti make and ISTPs Fi demon aspect make us view one another seeing as how those are our hero functions.


----------



## lilacleia16

I also love John Patrick Amedori…what’s his MBTI?


----------



## ciel sos infel

lilacleia16 said:


> Ok so help me understand ISFP and ISTP compatibility with this chart. Compare parent with child etc…I need this visual aid to get it and a personal example.


I don't understand what I should do with that chart to help make it clearer.

I don't have a personal example for ISFP-ISTP. I've only investigated intuitives in depth but it's all analogous _(tor rather here are two analogous groups - those with judgin functions as parent and child and those with judging functions as hero and inferior so more precisely: if it works for INFP-INTP then it works for ISFP-ISTP and from my humble investigation efforts it works between INFP-INTP in practice and I've had several INTPs tell me how they're falling for INFP fictional characters, didn't ask INFPs about it)._ I'll try to imagine some situations, based on my experiences with my pops and what I know about cognitive functions.

Comparing child and parent is very easy because they are the same, or rather nearly the same _(because they don't work alone but in pairs with judging functions so they're 'coloured' by the judging functions)_. S-N functions will dictate your lifestyle's needs, how structured you are or how reactive. How much planning do you need, how much excitement, how much security, how much repeatability, how much predictability etc. For example ENTJs and ENFJs love surprises, despite having high Ni, but INFJs and INTJs not at all. They also predicate your degree of attachment, whether you prefer someone to be clingy and possessive or whether you don't want to feel caged and tied down. The default is that your every need in those areas is the same for the other person, in reality it might vary due to trauma etc. but the more a person returns to a point of internal balance the more in line with their nature _(their type)_ they will be.

I found my dad to be easily angered, that's a high Se thing. What does happen if two people like that end up together? 


ENFPathetic said:


> Angry sex is out of this world, and totally worth the cost of replacing mirrors and furniture all the time.


He's an ESFP talking about his experience with an ISTP but I think it's partially applicable. What I predict is that both people would get tire themselves out, whenever they got too 'angery', and they'd be fairly peaceful again. However it plays out in reality the pattern is that equal position equal polarity arrangement has a balancing effect to it.

Another thing that you'd be both comfortable with is living in a mess. My father's workshop is an utter rubbish dump. I don't know how real ISFPs operate but I think there's a stereotype of a painter covered in paint and having it splattered all over the floor, old unfinished works and canvas scattered throughout the place etc. So ISFP and ISTP could actually bear to live in each other's disarray, without being forced to conform to some standard of orderliness. Still, my prediction would be, that over time whatever is causing you to be so chaotic gets somewhat toned down naturally, bit by bit, without it being enforced. My ESTJ mother's Se critic nagging didn't make my dad any more orderly.

The thinking and feeling functions are exactly mirrored. It's a funny thing because this arrangement makes them have so much in common, yet still being the polar opposites and thus capable of solving different challenges and providing justifications. ISTP has no Fi accessible in the ego. They don't even recognize the need for it in their everyday life, however, seeing it in the other person, in the hero position, they will become hungry for it. I've heard many stories about INTJs dazzling INFJs and I've experienced that myself, when my male friend talked about something he has read. I can't say what it is for sure, but I know I could just sit and listen to him forever talking about how he enjoyed a thing. Same phenomena is bound to occur between ISFP and ISTP.

What makes an ISTP into the introvert actually? Most importantly their Te nemesis, afraid of being seen as foolish, unrespectable and all sorts of things and running away from that fear into their, sometimes delusional, self-esteem. What does Te inferior do? "Wow, ISTP, you so great and resourceful", or to use another example from that ESFP:


ENFPathetic said:


> I read the OP. You may on to something. It makes a lot of sense. *I think you're a genius.* Keep going.


Well, I don't consider myself one but it's just to demonstrate that low functions are easily impressed in general. While that makes pairing two low functions of opposite polarity _(e.g. Te inferior + Ti inferior)_ bad, since they take away the stimulus for growth - *Ti hero doesn't need to grow at all*. In fact, it needs to be slightly toned down and, when they're made comfortable about being respected, an ISTP will be less withdrawn. Same is true on the ISFP's side because the functions are mirrored. ISTP's inferior Fe will take away some of the burdens of Fe nemesis, without being controlling.

I could write more, I think, but it's better to get feedback if that explanation works for you.


----------



## ciel sos infel

lilacleia16 said:


> I’m trying to understand but how would my demon aspect as Ti make and ISTPs Fi demon aspect make us view one another seeing as how those are our hero functions.


Consider browsing this thread. One of my goals with it was to figure out how does demon react to the function it targets:

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/INTP/comments/upezfj

"On the overall, I enjoy/miss the Fi softness of xNFP and have had less drama with INFP."
"The only problem with high Fi users I've faced was when/if I crossed one of their values. (...) This problem seems more to me with Fi in second slot rather than first"
"I would consider infp's fi as their own adorable quirks. I usually try not to tresspass their fi. They too precious to be lost over fight or heated discussion about trifle things."

There are problems when INTP's emotional development has been arrested and when INFP is being undisciplined but no relationship truly works in that state for them, and even if they find some relationship that does and allows them to be immature and underdeveloped - then that relationship is harming them in the long run.

I don't have that much experience with them but I don't mind Si heroes myself, Si parents can be a problem because Se critic nags my Se inferior and in my experience that isn't usually fair. What I do mind is Te hero's invigilation but Te parent doesn't go that far, since it's pessimistic. Still that's Te trickster and that's one level higher in sensitivity compared to the demon. I've also heard from an INTP that he minds Se heroes but not Se parents.

ENTJs reportedly don't mind INFJ emotional neediness (Fe parent), and from my conversations with them I think they can take Fe hero levels of neediness, it's like Fe parent wasn't enough.

In general I found that the demon is so dulled down it doesn't have a strong awerse reaction to the hero it targets.



lilacleia16 said:


> I also love John Patrick Amedori…what’s his MBTI?


I don't know.


----------



## lilacleia16

ciel sos infel said:


> I found my dad to be easily angered, that's a high Se thing. What does happen if two people like that end up together?


You know, now that you describe it…two of my ex’s were ISTP and they both were mechanics. They were the only two I’ve ever loved. And I fantasize about being married to a firefighter which is a common career for an ISTP! 😝 As for the anger, with one, I slapped him when I got mad and he gritted his teeth and refused to speak a word. That drove me crazy but later we made up and it was like nothing had happened because we both live in the present so grudges aren’t a thing. I actually felt later that his silence in a fight was strength and admired his power.


----------



## lilacleia16

ciel sos infel said:


> I don't understand what I should do with that chart to help make it clearer.


I guess help me understand the way archetypes interact with each other. I understand how parent and child interact but the others are harder to understand.


----------



## ciel sos infel

lilacleia16 said:


> You know, now that you describe it…two of my ex’s were ISTP and they both were mechanics. They were the only two I’ve ever loved. And I fantasize about being married to a firefighter which is a common career for an ISTP! 😝 As for the anger, with one, I slapped him when I got mad and he gritted his teeth and refused to speak a word. That drove me crazy but later we made up and it was like nothing had happened because we both live in the present so grudges aren’t a thing. I actually felt later that his silence in a fight was strength and admired his power.


Just for the record you can love other types than your T/F variant, I've loved the ENFP I've been with, but, oh well, she didn't actually love me.
I think each feeler will find a certain kind of emotional self-control to be attractive. Myself I wouldn't like to leave things unsolved like that and it's not the kind of emotional self-control I'm expecting, but, hey, like you've said, Se-Ni will see it differently.

I can't nail an exact job for my fantasy woman but something happens to me when I imagine a snarky, bespectacled nerd surrounded by a pile of books or records.

On a side note once my ESTJ mother slapped my father and he returned the slap haha. My mother didn't talk to him for, oh, I don't even remember how long. That situation cracks me up whenever I'm reminded of it.


----------



## ciel sos infel

lilacleia16 said:


> I guess help me understand the way archetypes interact with each other. I understand how parent and child interact but the others are harder to understand.


Ah okay, so archetypes.

So inferior is better imagined as a weakling. Just like parent will want to take care of the child so a hero will feel most like a hero when rescuing a weakling. For it to be balanced though these need to be opposite polarities _(even though a function is weak and needs to be supported by the higher function it can do the things that the other can't)_.

Nemesis _(or the 'opposing personality' in that table)_ is on a lookout for the function it targets _(so Fe nemesis targets Fe)_. Whenever it finds signs of it in the other person it sends distress signal: 'they're fake, they're flimsy, they're trying to manipulate us' and so on. However the weakling is so helpless that it goes under the radar of the nemesis function. In ISTP-ISFP case okay, ISTP doesn't have Fi identity at all but he's independent through his Ti and won't bend to Fi hero's every whim _(which normally activates nemesis)_. Interestingly enough, if it was Fi weakling though, that weakling is so flimsy it instead gets interpreted as high Fe and sends the nemesis into high alert.

Critic (or witch, or senex) will see that the other side is just as critical of themselves as it is and that builds trust. ISTP denies himself comfort and you deny yourself comfort, that's camaraderie. Both being like that each will strive to take care of the other so that the other doesn't overexert themselves. In my case, whenever I attempted to help my father out with some things he was reluctant to let me - but I'm not very confident with my Se and, having Ne nemesis, I assumed that it's his explicit assertion of his free will and I didn't want to infringe on it, and here's where Ni child makes it work.

Ni child won't all that much about what the other person says they want or don't want and will just take over and relieve them of their load. ISFP will be made justified by their whims, or it being the morally right thing to do and ISTP will be made justified by it making sense to help the other out. With internal justifications this strong the other side, having extroverted function, will usually relent and let their partner help them out.

Neither will know very well what each other's intentions are, both have Ne tricksters, but since both have Ni children they will both express their wants to each other, because child function is needy. That removes a lot of misunderstandings. Ne trickster would be annoyed by Ne hero/Ni nemesis and very confused by Ni trickster and Ni demon but that doesn't happen in this pairing.

I don't really like the term 'demon', with how ignorant the function is I call it 'blind man' personally. For the most part demon function is just oblivious. It's so oblivious that it can ignore even the strongest signal and that is the signal of Fi hero. It's annoying for the demon function's user to reach into it and the realm of it's governance. ISTP won't need to because Fi hero will figure him out - every introverted function can simulate, build consistent models out of thin air. ISFP can simulate ISTP's identity and tell them about themselves and what they actually feel, without ISTP needing to figure it out on their own.

I think I've covered it all? If not, ask.


----------



## Dezir

ciel sos infel said:


> To start with please be patient with my Te trickster, I'll try my best to make it as comprehensible as I can.
> 
> *Chapter 0: Super-shortened, washed down version that doesn't explain things properly but might help some people.*
> 
> TL;DR: The single most optimal match is T/F variant pairing (e.g. ESFP-ESTP) because it resolves every obstacle in communication that's built into our nature without compromising on anything that makes a relationship attractive (and actually providing the most attractive components for both of partners).
> 
> The Problem:
> We have 2 sets of 4 personalities to pair together. Yes, this requires a presupposition that 8 cognitive functions and 4 sides of mind are a thing however both these theories are individually verifiable through introspection of your personal experience.
> 
> Condition 1:
> When personalities overlap so do their niches - they conflict, compete for territory within relationship.
> These sets of personalities are:
> xNTP-xSFJ-xSFP-xNTJ and xNFP-xSTJ-xSTP-xNFJ
> In order to evade overlap we need to pick one from one set and one from the other.
> 
> Condition 2:
> There are 4 positive 4 negative functions which have different properties dependent on their position within the stack. Those need to be paired as well. Introverted function and extroverted function are opposite polarities and provide magnetic pull (attraction) but that pull is counterbalanced by negative function interactions.
> 
> Positive Functions:
> 1st hero - focal point, irresponsible, hyper-aware and overused, very strong signal
> 2nd parent - auxiliary, responsible, aware but toned down, strong signal
> 3rd child - needing attention and care, innocent but can get confused by user's trickster, weak signal with spikes in strength which can overload oversensitive receptors
> 4th weakling - insecure and helpless, honest - no interference from negative function, signal so weak it passes of as opposite polarity
> 
> Negative Functions:
> nemesis - fears and distrusts the displays of function it targets, oversensitive reception but weak signals can go under it's radar without triggering defense mechanisms
> critic - critical and dismissive of displays of the function it targets, sensitivity toned down a notch compared to nemesis however it cannot handle very strong signal for long; won't dismiss innocence without examination
> trickster - confused and slightly ignorant about displays of the function it targets, can handle stronger signals for longer than critic, needs to be responsibly accounted for
> blind man - unperturbed by displays of this function, poor reception therefore resilient against over-use of the function it targets - can take the strongest signal without overload
> 
> (Keep in mind this is only a simplified outline of how these positions interact with each other and does not encapsulate the entirety of how they are used in the psyche.)
> 
> Condition 3:
> Attraction is strongest between functions on the same axis so 1st function will be attracted the most to 1st and 4th positions in their partner, 2nd to 2nd and 3rd and so on. When you put all functions in opposite polarities and in the same positions you get very strong pull but you trigger every negative position. When you have same functions in the same spots they nullify negative functions of their positions at the cost of magnetic attraction. When you have same functions in opposite spots they get misread as signal of the opposite polarity so they trigger the negative functions.
> 
> Ideal combination of two sets of opposite polarity functions giving most magnetic attraction with least interference from negative functions would be set up in the following way (+/- stand for introverted/extraverted or extraverted/introverted, works both ways):
> -hero +nemesis with +weakling -blind man
> +parent -critic with -child +trickster
> -child +trickster with +parent -critic
> +weakling -blind man with -hero +nemesis
> 
> So basically all of your cognitive functions in reverse order and in opposite polarity, giving you the widest cognitive range and wholly nullifying negative functions interference, HOWEVER that's exactly your super-ego (e.g. INFJ-ISTJ) so personalities overlap. Simply changing I/E variant of your super ego as your partner's type spoils the alignment of the functions without providing personalities that don't overlap in their areas of competence completely - it's still enough to cause conflict, even if it's not as immediate as with your super-ego's type.
> 
> Condition 4:
> Next important factor is area of focus of our functions. Perceptive (N-S) functions decide our lifestyle (our mental focus - what we pay attention the most with our mind, the realm that we 'live' in, read the individual descriptions of each function below and it'll become clear), judging functions (T/F) tells us how we make decisions and what we can decide on (details are expounded upon in other chapters).
> Ni - focused on the future and solutions, doesn't like unplanned actions, seeks the best way of doing things
> Si - focused on the past and duty, doesn't like change, upholds the traditional way of doing things
> Ne - focused on "what if" and possibilities, doesn't like to be tied down to one option, seeks other ways of doing things
> Se - focused on the present and immediately relevant, doesn't like to be held down or theorizing, reacts and makes adjustments in the moment
> 
> In order to effortlessly live together in the same world/time-frame you need the same N-S functions. Having the same T-F functions cripples your decision making capabilities as a pair - having complete set of T-F of functions provides justification for actions that are both internally consistent and in contact with the external.
> 
> Potential dilemma:
> Sexual attraction on a mental level is a result of Se-Si magnetism.
> 
> Remedy:
> Sexual attraction (Si-Se magnetism) can be resolved by employing other personalities since sexual expression is libido limited anyway. Furthermore it's only an initial drawback, as intimacy grows between partners they will get comfortable to show deeper parts of themselves to one another providing more balanced (since they are engaging all of their personalities, leaving none out of the fun) and varied sexual experience compared to surface level ego-ego Se-Si magnetism which doesn't motivate further exploration since everything is available from the start. The hurdles to accessing all of your personalities are personality overlap and mental discomfort (unalleviated negative function interference and insufficient T-F justification) - both are dealt with by my proposition.
> 
> Conclusion:
> N-S need to be the same in your partner, T-F opposite polarities and positions.
> 
> Final Result:
> Your perfect type match is T/F variant of your type (e.g. ISTJ-ISFJ).
> 
> 
> 
> *Chapter 1: Terminology and outlining the challenges*
> 
> First an example personality outline that should explain most of the terms I'll be using.
> 
> *ESFJ*
> Ego (conscious)/Dominant/Default personality
> Fe_ hero_ (strong but internally insecure, ready and willing to fulfill expectations, capable of swaying other's emotions or moral judgements, can be seen as clingy, controlling through kindness in the realm of societal obligations, craving Fi to pamper)
> Si _parent_ (dependable and responsible but less confident than a hero, conscious of it's own sensory experiences and bodily needs, memory bank, living in the past, can take a lot of punishment, reasonably loyal, concerned about observing traditions especially in social sphere, responsibly frugal and concerned about financial security)
> Ne _child_ (honest, naive, brilliant and demanding attention, concerned with possibilities and metaphysical, can come up with fresh ideas of what others could do with their lives but focused on relationships contrasted with ESTJ's capability to advise someone about what profession they could try)
> Ti _weakling/inferior_ (weak and defenseless but without ulterior motives and wanting to become a hero, worried about it's self worth but will eventually stand up for itself, can lead to INTP type logical prowess through practice into confidence triggered aspirational form)
> 
> Shadow/Anima(us)/Inside-out form/Auxiliary personality/Counter space(as a set of negative functions accessible to consciousness by default; emotional triggers for complete personality switch: panic/hate or acceptation/love)
> _ISFP_
> Fi _nemesis_ (hero's kryptonite, afraid of having no moral justification for it's whims so escaping into people pleasing)
> Se _critic_ (justifying one's own existence by pointing out what others neglected in the physical Se realm, initially very nagging but when worked on can only point out the things that should be pointed out, not every tiniest detail and with understanding that people are only people)
> Ni _trickster_ (place of misleading competence, fooling the user into wanting things that they don't really want and turn really bad for them, needs Ne parent or Ne child to be evaded)
> Te _blind man/demon_ (a character cursed with blindness that seals away a dreadful demon that under different circumstances might turn into a guardian angel; a place of ignorance but at least what the eyes can't see doesn't cause grief, blind to authority, to what other people think and already know - so appearing silly or dumb to untrained eye but it's only in Te matters, not knowing who should be believed so relying on Fe motivation detection instead)
> 
> Aspirational/Upside-down form (emotional triggers: stress or confidence)
> _INTP_
> 
> Super-ego/Demon/Guardian Angel (emotional triggers: ego death level crisis or, if unlocked, whenever necessary)
> _ENTJ_
> 
> When I speak about high function I mean it being in either hero or parent position, when I speak about low function I mean child or weakling position.
> 
> Here is what most people proposing type pairings have been missing:
> 1. Negative functions (nemesis, critic, trickster, blind man) are paramount, no matter the level of maturity they define some of the deepest needs
> 2. There are two spots for greatest attraction: equal or opposite on the axis (e.g. hero-hero and hero-weakling)
> 3. Alignment of functions (including the negative) makes all the difference between smooth operation and communication failure
> 4. Introverted judging functions need similarity to simulate the other person's needs accurately
> 5. People are not just their ego! Sexual attraction (Se-Si) doesn't have to be on a level of ego-ego interaction, libido is limited anyway, sex doesn't occupy most of the time in people's lives, no matter how horny person is (unless we're talking literal nymphomania) so switching into other conditional personalities is enough to fulfill sexual needs
> 6. For all the spice that differences bring to life you have to be able to actually lead a fulfilling life with your partner without compromising on who you are, otherwise you bleed out energy and feel deep mental discomfort
> 7. Everyday life requires both thinking and feeling faculties in equal strength, without a balance between them scales get tipped to one side and relationship becomes cognitively crippled
> 
> 
> 
> *Chapter 2: Why the usually recommended pairings fail*
> 
> The often proposed pairings (ego-shadow relationship or ego-T/F variant of shadow) fail because they pay no attention to how the negative and weakling functions interact and force people into lifestyles that are unnatural to them. These pairings are not only wrong but are harmful because they block both persons from fulfilling their psychological needs.
> 
> Example ego-shadow pairing:
> INFJ and ENFP
> Ego
> Hero Ni <- Ne
> Parent Fe -> Fi
> Child Ti <- Te
> Weakling Se -> Si
> 
> Inside-out form/shadow/anima(us)
> Nemesis Ne -> Ni
> Critic Fi <- Fe
> Trickster Te -> Ti
> Demon Si <- Se
> 
> Magnetism between positive functions is apparently flawless and that's the reason for this strong pull that exists between the types, however that's only half of the story and, as relationship progresses, the ugly side of it (perfectly aligned negative functions which double up on each other) rears it's head.
> 
> In INFJ-ENFP pairing the ENFP feels insecure and craves to be trusted because Ni nemesis is afraid of it's own determination and commitment while Si weakling is worried about it's own conscientiousness and ability to endure. INFJ, unless expending tremendous amount of energy which will eventually run out, cannot just trust others with Ne nemesis expecting to be betrayed any moment now and Se weakling worried it's performance does not warrant any loyalty and it's going to be left on ice. And that's not all. Fe critic guilt trips Fi critic without mercy, Te trickster misunderstands Ti trickster (which doesn't understand itself lol), Se blind man neglects Si blind man which ignores itself by default and could really use someone paying attention to it.
> 
> Some seem to think that dating your shadow is developmental but I strongly disagree. In terms of cognitive functions maturity means ability approach the feedback provided by your negative functions realistically and mastering all 4 personalities. That does not happen in ego-shadow relationship. On example of ISFP-ESFJ pairing:
> 1. The surface level pull is so strong neither need to engage their other personalities (inside-out gets neglected) and both of the partners, when together, are rarely in a place of comfort (fears alleviated) that allows inside-out form to come out
> 2. ISFP weakling feeds on ESFJ's weakling and doesn't have to grow in order to accommodate all that a hero can pump into it (training the weakling leads to aspirational/upside-down form), analogous with ESFJ's Ti weakling - it doesn't aspire to become better in order to feed Te hero sufficiently
> 3. ESFJ's Ni trickster keeps wanting the things it doesn't actually want since ISFP Ne trickster, instead of stopping it in it's tracks, listens to it but doesn't pick up properly that it's not what is actually wanted so both don't realize what's going wrong - which would lead a person to stop trusting the trickster (that's the only way to mature in the 'use' of this function that I'm aware of - just don't trust it at all)
> 4. Si critic doesn't fight back against Se critic at all and both remain hypocritical instead of becoming wise and selective in what they're criticizing
> 5. As far as blind men go ISFP's Ti won't be shown the way by ESFJ's Ti weakling who isn't very capable without hero's support; if ISFP was with ISTP instead Ti hero would provide enough self-respect for both of them and lead ISFP into super-ego by example
> 
> And this brings me to the bitter crux of the matter when it comes to ego-shadow pairings: equal position opposite polarity magnetism is a trap. It's a feel good, immediate, easy way out, fast-food like solution that doesn't solve the problem. For example when I saw an ENFP clothed outlandishly and being completely fine with it I was attracted, despite having a preference for smart, stylish outfits. Now why was that? I didn't realize it at the time but as I pondered on the matter it came clear as a day to me - I was seeking refuge in her confidence about how she looks - despite her looking horribly. My Se weakling clinged to that self-assurance without realizing it's nothing but ignorance on her part. If I stayed with that ENFP I would never improve my Se because my worries would've been sated by her approval - which is actually meaningless because of her ignorance in the matter (Se blind man). Another example is that my ESTJ-ISTP parents never improved emotionally until I started confronting them about their incompetence (the problem is I could only do so as an adult, when the damage through faulty upbringing was already done).
> I'll quote an INTP I've been in contact with, who's very well versed in cogntive functions (in some areas he's better than me):
> "That's my thought on the matter as well. You don't have to work at getting what you need. Both people have no impetus to grow. For ENTJ, They love to hear my Ti thoughts to validate or correct their Te and I love to hear their Te validations in return. They usually know what they want (Ni), I can come up with ideas to help them make that a reality (Ne) and in return they take me along for the ride (Se). They want to show me a good time with Se and my Si shows their Se all the appreciation for it and shows them loyalty which they desire. My Fe insecurities helps protect their fragile Fi, and their Fe demon doesn't care about my Fi demon which is just fine by me. But there's no opportunity to explore my Fe beyond it's most basic state, No reason for their Fi to develop either, since it gets what it needs (to be validated) without much work from them. It's shallow and may work great in a business relationship, but for romance it can seem almost unfulfilling to me, especially after having experienced alternatives."
> 
> So the negative functions are one thing but remember that you're comprised out of not one but four personalities, that change depending on your emotional state, so you need to match them all for the relationship to have that smoothness of operation where you don't need to force either yourself or the other into anything. Ego-shadow relationship personality sets overlap and block partners from living out their shadow's needs first without motivating weakling functions to grow into heroes leading to aspirational personalities. ESTP personality is particularly territorial and it'll very quickly lead to "this town is to small for the two of us" type of conflict.
> 
> If you want to have a fulfilling life then any personality type from your personality rooster is better to be ruled out because whoever is better at it wins and the other person feels that part of themselves is not needed - so it's left out of the relationship - and that's no good. Sharing exact same personalities causes insecurity, strife and jealousy which are very difficult to resolve so when eventually one person has to give up about fulfilling the needs of such and such personality, within the bounds of the relationship, the person will either end up imbalanced or attempt to seek the fulfillment outside, neglecting their partner (through workaholism for example) or might even resort to cheating.
> 
> Real life example of personality overlap blocking a personality between partners: my parents' ESTJ-ISTP marriage. My mom (ESTJ) told me stories how she made herself a bed lamp when she was a teenager, or how she was the top scorer in shooting class in high school (ISTP make great sharpshooters because their Ti-Se calculates distance, wind, bullet drop etc. effortlessly) but after she met my ISTP father (can't remember when but not that long after high school I think) she was pretty much stopped from developing those talents further - and I don't mean in some sort of sexist way, it's just my father was just so much better at driving and woodwork etc. so he was the one doing these things. ISTP's Ti hero has a nasty tendency to take over what you're doing if they see that you're not doing it well enough - and no one is going to outperform ISTP's ego Ti-Se unless they are allowed to practice! You might say "well I don't see a problem here, the better just does what they're better at, that's all" but you need to live in your inside-out (and every other personality) in order to be balanced. Maybe my mother wouldn't be so afraid of quitting her job (her external source of self worth desperately needed by Te hero) if she had the option to validate herself through doing ISTP things. Well, not in that relationship, she'd have to secretly go to carpentry courses lol.
> 
> When thinking about a life partner you need to choose someone you can actually live with so extroverts and introverts are poorly matched. Maybe it's starting to change nowadays but what I remember is that extroverts in the wild have very little understanding or tolerance for introversion. People need to be with someone that's similar enough, who sees the world with their eyes for there to be understanding and harmony yet still somehow different and fascinating so that they attract each other and can have each other's back covered.
> 
> 
> 
> *Chapter 3: The solution - T/F variant pairing*
> 
> _Before I start explaining: INFJs, INTJs this is for you especially, I don't know if any other type (besides maybe ENTJ and ENFJ) that could comprehend the peace which comes from hearing that you're gonna get killed if you betray the other person... Anyway pictures say more than 1000 words so let me show you an example of T/F variant pairing, only this one is same sex friendship (but like someone in the coments said: this friendship is more romantic than some romances). The long haired one is INTJ the fluffy haired one is INFJ. The translation is a little off in the first clip but most important things should be still intelligible and it's not just a fiction because of how many elements that actually happen are presented in these scenes such as: INTJ dazzling an INFJ, INTJ using only her fingertip to touch INFJ, INFJ getting deer-in-the-headlights look when challenged on her honesty - that's what happens when Fi critic is activated which is paralyzing. Anyway just have a look, together these clips will take only 10 minutes of your time:_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So...
> There is such a pairing, where the other is half the person they're with and half the super-ego of their partner, where your built-in fears and insecurities are relieved through how your partner is configured and no personality overlaps. Just switch T and F letter from your type and as long as you're typed properly you should have your match. Additionally, while personality type statistics is a tricky matter because of mistypes and other reasons, there seems to be a pattern that there's around 2.5x as many women of any F type as there are men and same with T types. It's not as clear with every single T/F variant but the rarest male type (INFJ) has similar count to it's perfect match in female population (INTJ), same with the most frequent male type (ISTJ) and most frequent female type (ISFJ). There are about 9% ENFP women while there are about 1% of INFJ men. If that were a perfect pairing then there will be a lot of ENFPs stuck in sub optimal relationships, made to make due with what they can get. T/F variant pairing solves that conundrum by eliminating scarcity.
> 
> Let's now consider the rarest specimen example. The functions in INFJ-INTJ pairing react the following way:
> Ne nemesis feels secure when it sees the conviction of another Ni hero.
> Fe parent pampers Fi child while Fe trickster is picked up on and figured out by Fe parent. Fi critic gets judged by honest Fi child and depending if it did a good job or not gets validated or falls in line without dispute.
> Te parent understands Ti child and listens to it with attention while Te trickster gets corrected. The meritocratic approach of truthful Ti child again validates INTJ, relieving the burden of Ti critic, or it points out a logical inconsistency and Ti critic notices it immediately.
> Se weakling tries it's best and though it's not very capable it gets encouraged by analogous struggles on the other side, instead of looking down on them like any stronger function would, and manages to pay special attention to Si blind man needs without being overbearing.
> 
> There's also a very pragmatic benefit to having both feeler and thinker in a relationship. A benefit thinkers might overlook. Let's imagine psyche as a heavy duty machinery working day and night. In that situation a feeling function acts as a sensor warning about overheating or malfunction. Feelers have more acutely tuned sensors so it might appear that they 'break easier' but that sense of superiority is illusory. Remember, these are only sensors and thinker has their sensors dulled down, they have very low sensitivity so they don't give warning signals however THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT THERE'S NO DANGER OF MALFUNCTION AND MAINTENANCE WORK CAN BE NEGLECTED. A thinker will only have harder time noticing that somethings wrong or what's even wrong, it'll still bother them and cause problems in their lives! When paired with a feeler they can provide that maintenance even when thinker's sensors don't offer sufficient data. Since they know what breaks in their operations and they had to fix themselves all the time *they are like an experienced mechanic who can pick up on what's wrong just by a difference in a sound that engine makes during operation*. It works especially well in T/F variant pairing since because N-S functions are the same the psyche of feeler and thinker are very similar, they have the same chassis. This maintenance is crucial for any long lasting relationship and invaluable for bringing children up. Thinkers miss things, a lot of things, I know, both of my parents were T heroes and they've neglected my emotional needs so much so before I even went into the world I was already a broken, malfunctioning unit.
> 
> There's argument to be made that Se needs Si for sex but there's also a saying that the silent ones are wild in the sack or something like that and I think that's because the inside-out comes out often during sex. So, for example, while ENTPs are highly attractive to INFJs sexually - it doesn't need to be in the ego. What does an INTJ have in their shadow? An ENTP but without the strings of negative functions mismatch attached, at least not for long enough for them to cause issues. The pattern continues with other personalities within the stacks of T/F variant pairings.
> 
> The ego is only the dominant personality (just like the dominant function we tend to rely on). You can change between these personalities and they each have their purpose and each need their time in life. The triggers for personality changes are emotional - I outlined some of those (there might be more) in Chapter 1 (that bit with all of the functions and subpersonalities of ESFJ).
> 
> Let's consider a case of ESFP-ESTP. So an ESFP primarily needs excitement, right? An ESTP needs that too so there's congruence on this matter. Neither partner has to force the other partner to lead their lives differently. But if there's so much excitement hungry Se, where is the stability that's also needed at times? Well, when one of Se doms gets their excitement quota filled they get comfortable enough to jump into their 'auxiliary' personality, their shadow, inside-out form or anima/animus. For ESFP that's ISFJ, for ESTP thats ISTJ - both recognized for their stability. Also that's where the sexual attraction happens between those types - when you try to date ISxJ directly as an ESxP bad things happen (because your fears and worries double up on themselves).
> 
> So the basis for such relationship is friendship and understanding (and trust for those who need it) and once either of partners get their psychological needs secured they can change into either more frisky or more stable form. Whether someone primarily needs excitement or stability - that personality switch is only temporary so the relationship returns to normal before it gets too boring or too turbulent.
> 
> *Chapter 4: The balancing act and the true perception*
> 
> This might not be the best term for what I'm about to describe but let's roll with it.
> Cognitive functions deal with perceptions and judgements. There's something very important to realize about perceptions and their relationship with where the cognitive function is on the list. Taking Ti as an example:
> 
> 1. Ti hero/dom will be convinced of it's user's worth/skill/competence to a point of delusion (and is paranoid about other people's capabilities and reasoning via Te nemesis).
> 
> _Real life example:_ I've had an argument with my ISTP father about him overheating a furnace, he was merciless with me when I screwed up so I kept drilling him on that and he got to a point of saying "The fire was wrong". He was so unable to perceive his error. In INTPs it's this high brow "I don't even need to answer your shit" sort of attitude, they'll just ignore you but they're so self confident doing that, that Te and low Ti users might fall for it.
> 
> 2. Ti parent/auxiliary will also overesteem it's user's worth/skill/competence while downplaying the contributions of others (via Te critic) but it's slitghtly less delusional than a hero, I guess.
> 
> _Real life example:_ there've been two manifestations of this in this very thread. One from ESTP who didn't feel like he needed to answer my points with proper argumentation and instead posted a laughing emoji reaction, the other ENTP site admin or whoever neglecting to properly examine my theory and instead dismissing it with "You're overthinking it".
> 
> 3. Ti child/tertiary is downplaying it's user's worth/skill/competence (and coming off as kinda retarded via Te trickster).
> 
> _Real life example:_ wish I could remember something to use... Anyway what makes I_FJs into such doormats? Undervaluing their own worth due to Ti child. That does change when I_FJ reaches some proficiency or solid understanding of what they're doing so they're not so easily swayed. However on it's own (without sufficient support) and in it's default state, Ti child is very easily impressionable and can be bullied by higher Ti without much resistance because Te trickster has fed it the wrong information many times before so it'll assume that it's wrong without properly examining itself.
> 
> 4. Ti weakling/inferior is delusional about it's user's worthlessness.
> 
> _Real life example:_ I've been talking to an ENTJ recently and she relayed to me how annoyed she is with her ENFJ boss downplaying himself and coming off as a goofball around people. Notice that respect (T) is on an axis with love (F), you can't have both and ENFJ prioritizes getting love from the environment at the cost of self-respect (and that's usually true for all __FJs, it's just with E_FJs it's more visible).
> 
> What does that tell us?
> 
> First: stop being terrified of high Ti self delusions, just have some solid understanding of the topic and don't falter, even if you feel like you're being an idiot. If they leave without engaging you - you win, they're running away unable to admit their failure because they're still immature and they haven't developed their other functions to the point they can handle the burden of supporting their ego and keeping it from ego death.
> 
> Okay, yea, that's true and all but that's not exactly what I wanted to talk about. What it really tells us is that *there's no true perception anywhere to be found within an individual*. You either underestimate or overestimate yourself and others. When I get into ESTP aspirational I get rather cocky and then when I screw up I'm immediately forced back into that unimposing Ti child in shame. I can go to the extremes but there's no balance to be found within just one person.
> 
> What if there was a way to balance it out? Is it to put Ti hero with Ti inferior?
> 
> That's not the case, to the disgrace of Socionics which proposes ego-aspriational pairings (ugh), because then Ti hero keeps pummeling Ti weakling down. Yes, inferior will look up to the hero and pick up some things from it however it won't keep that state for long. The default remains hero overestimating itself at the cost of others and weakling underestimating itself at the benefit of others. Hero gets double the praise and weakling gets double the punishment. Perfectly dreadful.
> 
> Is it to pair Ti hero with Te hero?
> 
> No because we end up in exactly same spot since Te hero has Ti nemesis and is paranoid about self worth and instead relies on praise from others and provides that praise likewise. It's like with high Fe user being overly amiable because they have too much affection to give.
> 
> Remembering that strongest interaction occurs between functions on the same axis... What if we paired a Te hero with Ti weakling?
> 
> Ti weakling will overestimate Te hero who underestimates itself to the same degree, pretty much. Initially it might be annoying and cause conflicts but after a while Ti inferior will sharpen and get more confidence to tell Te hero the truth and evaluate it correctly. Eventually they meet in the middle. The middle that otherwise *doesn't exist! *Combined together these two positions lead to the fifth, middle position which is the true perception. If only I could make you see past your misperceptions and previous life experiences and properly understand what I've said here. The logic is solid.
> 
> Since equal position equal polarity mechanically acts in a similar fashion (both underplaying or overestimating themselves) it will also lead to that point of true perception, given time. Looking at someone similar to you you'll get to see your own flaws very vividly. It's challenging but there's truth there to be found.
> 
> 
> *Chapter 5: Developmental benefits of T/F variant pairing on INTJ-INFJ example*
> 
> Let's outline what is growth. There's toning down your higher functions, developing your lower functions, learning to realistically approach your negative functions and spending time in your other personalities.
> 
> We'll start with higher functions. Why Ni gets out of balance? There are two factors - Se weakling and Ne nemesis. To illustrate if Ni dom is performing an action they haven't practiced and they end up making a laughingstock of themselves they'll be pressed to anticipate similar events in the future and prepare for them beforehand - because their performance in the now (Se) is lacking. With Ne nemesis it's other people's intentions that they cannot infer or rather - they infer the worst possibility so they again try to compensate by staying several steps ahead that person who might end up backstabbing them.
> 
> Now let's think about how to solve that. ENFP? Well, they are afraid of their own intentions so it won't be easy for them to tell a Ni dom about them. They'd rather make up a happy go lucky character that Ni dom would enjoy and play along Ni dom's wants and intentions. But Ni dom will slowly pick up on the discrepancies and it'll start to irk them more and more intensifying Ne nemesis fueled paranoia. Okay, maybe an ES_P then? Well they have Ni, insufferably pushy Ni, that changes it's mind too quickly and too often to be reliable - that doesn't calm Ne nemesis. As far as Se goes there are two ways it can play out - either INxJ gets even more insecure and retreats deeper into Ni preparing for the future or they learn from Se hero. But the problems caused by Ni weakling don't just end and ES_P getting into IN_J aspirational isn't enough in my opinion.
> 
> Okay so what do we do about this? A curious thing happens when you pair up Ni hero with Ni hero. Ne nemesis gets alleviated because you can bring yourself to trust someone as determined about being together as yourself. Other Ni hero won't do stupid, rash things that trigger Ne nemesis. So that bit is solved. What about Se? The weaklings understand and support each other. They slowly build one another up. Se weakling is lenient towards other people Se mistakes because they want the other to be lenient towards their own mistakes. The respective Se's are still Se's and they care about biomechanical performance, looking good etc. Another Se will want you to be presentable to them and will help you improve that. Si weakling won't, it's oblivious of how Se works by default. It doesn't help you grow in Se realm, it's fine the way things are.
> 
> What happens when you're allowed to practice your Se as an IN_J? You become able to extrovert yourself as your aspirational/upside-down ES_P form! There are some conditions, some emotional triggers for being extroverted as an introvert. You don't need to force yourself out of your shell or whatever. It's not how we get there.
> 
> Another manner of extroversion IN_J has available is EN_P, their shadow/auxiliary/inside-out form. What are the triggers for it? A feeling of security - having their fears alleviated. Look no further than Ne nemesis which is eased by having a responsible Ni hero around, though respective Ti/Fi validation can also trigger it. To illustrate, it's like because of knowing they won't get rejected for being silly they can let go for a while and go into their inside-out personality. Once they master it with their significant other they'll have easier time jumping into it in less favorable conditions. Ultimately even if others will disregard them for that - they still have someone to fall back onto, someone who won't just drop them even if they fail in other people's eyes. Now that's a sense of security.
> 
> Some people think that this is just a theory. The model is theoretical (granted, there's much more that goes into a successful relationship than only cognitive function alignment) but I've seen it predict some things accurately already. In post #57 WickerDeer explains that she dislikes INTJ-INFJ pairing because they get too "aesthetic" focused and thus become "immoral". The observation is valid and proves my point even if that moral judgement itself seems to be a result of a misunderstanding.
> 
> What actually happens is that they alleviate each other's insecurities and Se weakling supporting the other Se weakling turns into hero so they both rapidly develop their aspirational forms and extrovert themselves as Se doms (ESFP for INTJ and ESTP for INFJ).
> 
> I've seen an argument made that two introverts together shut environment out completely - but what is it that distances an introvert from other people? The energy expenditure to overcome their extraverted nemesis function, resolving the lack of justification of introverted critic, braving through the worries of extraverted weakling function and the damage control for their extroverted trickster. T/F variant pairing solves all those issues through proper alignment.
> 
> Fi child provides justification in F matters (whims etc.), Ti child justifies T matters (visions, plans etc.). Fe parent counteracts Fe trickster, same with Te parent and Te trickster so there's no miscommunication between the outside world and the pair at question. Se weakling supports the other Se weakling with understanding and patience it needs to develop because the struggle is shared - the partners won't part because of Se related blunders so they have just that little bit more of an assurance. Se weakling really needs to form that camaraderie with another Se weakling and walk together, lifting one another up, whileNi hero conviction provides comfort (e.g. "I want to be with you even if you mess up, I made my decision, I want you, I'm not going to give up on you just because of a silly mistake, I make them too, I understand"). Without things like that Se weakling might not have enough courage and drive to stay on the course of improvement until it reaches hero levels of capability. Both IN_Js can gradually open themselves up whenever they feel like it - not whenever an extrovert forces them out of their shell. It's a far more organic solution. A plant will flourish on it's own if it's given a proper environment, it doesn't need to get rushed into growth.
> 
> As far as T-F balancing goes INTJs might be initially fairly abrasive because of high Te and low Fi. It's not the optimal state for them to be in either way - ultimately they want to get to ISFJ like capabilities with their super-ego. Te is abrasive when Fi doesn't sympathize. In order for Fi to sympathize it needs data points that it gains through Fe. In INTJs that Fe is Fe trickster so Fi can get very skewed on that front. That Fe though doesn't need to be within INTJ's stack because other person's Fe can easily interface with INTJs Fi.
> 
> So long as INFJ has the justification and understanding that they should be providing data points to INTJ when it comes to, for example, how others react to certain actitions or lack of them and provided the INTJ isn't completely emotionally shut off (and if they're in love they should at least care about not hurting their partner) that coarseness of Te parent should be honed by increasingly competent Fi child.
> 
> Fe is empty. That's what pulls it towards Fi. When Fe interacts with Fi it feeds on it's identity and emotions in order to construct an image of it's own identity and emotions. It might sound scary but it's not like there are no emotions there - INFJs just don't have the sensors to figure them out available in our ego. How the process works is that INFJ looks at a hobby, music genre, aesthetic - whatever Fi related thing really and they reject what's 'not them' with Fi critic. It's difficult for them however to find these things on their own because they don't have that internal justification to explore. When they are paired up with Fi user though, and Fi child is the best for that I think - because it doesn't get attached to one hobby for too long, it explores new things - that curiosity of Fi child in turn allows INFJ to go through variety of Fi related experiences and piece together a more complete image of themselves. An analogous process is at play between INFJ's Ti child and INTJ's Te parent but I won't be able to explain it as aptly. Nevertheless what I mean to convey is that both parties gain what they need the most from being together.
> 
> T/F variant pairing is optimal for growth, balancing and maintaining healthy behaviours. When both people have the same levels of willpower they won't let the other person just walk over them. This might be a cause of conflicts but in cases like this lack of conflict is the unhealthy behaviour. The way it's done usually is that the side with higher Si just tanks the wrongs to keep the relationship going. That's not how it should work. Sometimes there needs to be a push back so that the person in the wrong gets a stimulus to rethink their behaviour.
> 
> 
> *Chapter 6: N-S the same T-F opposite*
> 
> I'll include an explanation I wrote for one poster as to why N-S can coexist with same N-S in your partner but T and F need to be polar opposites (and in order to evade negative functions mismatch placed on opposite points of hero-weakling or parent-child axes).
> 
> From my introspection I came to a conclusion that perceptive functions act differently than judging functions. Compliments about someone's look don't mean much for low Si user but they're important for low Se, especially Se weakling. Now Se weakling generally works double time to look good so if INFJ gets complimented on their looks by INTJ who's also looking good it makes it more impactful. Situation is different in Fe-Fi case because Fe might approach moral judgements from other Fe user as a form of consolation but when it's Fi user who doesn't care much about making others feel good says that you're a good person or whatever - that's far more rewarding.
> 
> A perceiving hero can be pals with same hero and rescue him from his nemesis because perceiving function is a passive support to judging function - for one type it'll be used for Fi while for other type for the Ti things - they don't overlap. For example INTJ will be better at cooking than INFJ and INFJ will be better at driving - both Se areas but the end result is different because of the difference between Fi and Ti. Ni is like tool and Ti or Fi is the craftsman, there's no redundancy in this regard.
> 
> A judging hero will be at odds with the same judging hero because they're doing the same thing, even if they're using different method or tool (for example ENTJ-ESTJ conflict described by that one ENTJ in this thread, Negotiator I think, sorry I'm bad with names). They are rivals competing for essentially the same resource instead of satisfying each other's needs like opposite polarities of cognitive functions do. Additionally a hero feels most like a hero when it saves the weakling of it's polar opposite. It can teach another weakling of the same kind (for example ENTJ-INFP is a mentor relationship) but when the coaching is over they part ways or else they get jealous of each other or fight for dominance instead of cleaving onto one another, like opposite polarities in proper alignment would.
> 
> Similarly parent feels most like a parent when it takes care of a child of the opposite polarity and child's needs feel most fulfilled when they are taken care by a responsible parent function of opposite polarity.
> 
> 
> 
> *Chapter 7: Differences in needs, differences in expectations (N-S the same T-F opposite part 2)*
> 
> There's another piece of the puzzle that needs to be taken into consideration. Just because someone doesn't have Ni in the ego doesn't mean they don't have their own wants or will and you can force yours on them (like Ni weakling does - because Ne blind man blind to what others want). Just because someone doesn't have Fi in the ego doesn't mean they aren't their own individual self with whims and fancies, however they might not allow themselves to act on them. Just because someone doesn't seem to care about Si comfort and overwork themselves just to be able to refute every accusation with "what do you think I laid on my back all day?!" doesn't mean they don't need to rest and just because someone lacks Ti self esteem doesn't mean you can push them around even if they don't resist. Every extroverted function acts out of a silent desperation an that is "if I fulfill their needs *maybe they will fulfill mine*". Fe users despite their selflessness hope that someone will accept them and allow them to be selfish every now and then, Te users when they notice someone's efforts hope that someone will notice theirs, Se users when giving other people pleasant sensations hope that someday someone will take them for a ride, and Ne users - when they believe in someone that doesn't believe in themselves anymore - hope that someone will have faith in them despite their weaknesses. Those are only examples, there's a lot more to that than what I've outlined here.
> 
> The paragraph above might point you to a conclusion that it's best to share all of the functions in the ego but that is not the case. Sharing T-F functions doesn't provide the same degree of mental comfort as sharing N-S functions. It is through having the same N-S functions that you can switch into your inside-out and return the favour to your partner's extraverted T-F functions, so to speak. I'll expound on that in later chapter but for now let's focus on N-S function interactions (based mainly on Ne-Si and Ni-Se because I understand those far better than Si-Ne and Se-Ni).
> 
> Looking at ENFPs, Ne hero might be so hopefully believing in good of everyone around them that it cannot fathom why someone wouldn't believe in them, almost as if they're insecure and compensating for something and indeed they are because through their Ni nemesis they don't have faith in their own convictions at all and seek security in assurance of someone else while they are worried about their ability to endure and be loyal via Si weakling.
> 
> But how the situation looks on the Ni-Se side? Let's take ENTJ for example. Because of ENTJ's Ne critic they can quickly assume they are going to get backstabbed. An ENTJ won't know your intentions, your determination and if you do anything out of pattern of love that they're expecting (by projecting how they would show their love and dedication - and that's Ni-Se way) they will take a note of that and if that pattern persists (a limit of how long ENTJ will be able to endure it depending on how trustworthy someone proved themselves to be up to that point) there are two usual ways to deal with the mental pressure they are going through:
> 1. Leave the relationship without bothering to figure out if their hunch is correct
> 2. Perform a loyalty check which in turn makes Ne-Si user feel unloved because their devotion got called into question and rubbed them the wrong way since it triggered their negative Ni function
> 
> It'll take longer for INFP or INTP to blow up but when ENFP's or ENTP's loyalty gets called into question it won't be long before they go into their demon and backstab their significant other in one way or another. Ne-Si is in mental pain when it's devotion and allegiance get tested. Probably what comes through their mind is "I'm enduring so much for you daily and I trust you so deeply and you still test me!?" but those things aren't very convincing to Ni-Se because it doesn't think in the same categories. "Enduring? If being with me is such a pain then do you even want to be with me? If displaying your loyalty in this simple gesture I'm demanding is so difficult for you then how I can believe in your dedication to not leave me?" might be the answer of Ni-Se user because the negative Ne is fearful (nemesis) or critical (critic) of other person's intentions and will and won't trust in loyalty that doesn't come from internal conviction, a clear cut decision, a made up mind and determination because Ni doesn't appreciate being forced into anything and as such projects that attitude onto the other, for example Ne nemesis fearing that someone is pressured into being with them and that that they're only waiting for an occasion to leave them or Ne critic distrustful of the other's determination and willpower needed to stay with them (because of e.g. worry coming from insecure weakling function). Similar with Se child expecting displays of loyalty because it wants to be pampered with it and Se weakling so worried about it's physical skills or looks that it won't believe that anyone would enjoy being in it's company and needs to be reassured of that via displays of conviction and want every now and then.
> 
> Do you see that those deep psychological needs stand in stark opposition to one another?
> Let Ne-Si soothe another Ne-Si by believing in it and Ni-Se get reassured by another Ni-Se's willful displays of possessiveness, wanton, need, dedication and devotion. That way neither has to force the other to come to a compromise that denies their respective natures.
> 
> You might ask "But if N-S need to be the same to understand each other then what about T-F?" and the answer is within T-F variant relationship those functions will get one another perfectly well because of N-S similarities, even if they're opposite polarities.
> So for example with ENFP-INFJ relationship the communication flows near flawlessly but... ONLY IN ONE DIRECTION. Only the extraverted function 'gets' the introverted function. When introverted function tries to engage the other person it does so either by simulating itself in the situation of the other person or via the negative extroverted counterpart then meeting negative introverted counterpart within the stack of the other personality. A balanced relationship requires both partners to get each other but how do you do that without exactly the same types? Simulation! Fi sympathy and Ti introspection (with analogous deduction, maybe there is a better single word for the equivalent of 'sympathy' in terms of Ti) to be precise, but because N-S are the same THOSE SIMULATIONS ACTUALLY WORK AND ACCURATELY PREDICT THE OTHER PERSON'S NEEDS.
> 
> 
> 
> *Chapter 8: Be not unequally yoked (N-S the same T-F opposite part 3)*
> 
> I'll reuse the outline from Chapter 0:
> Ni - focused on the future and solutions, doesn't like unplanned actions, seeks the best way of doing things
> Si - focused on the past and duty, doesn't like change, upholds the traditional way of doing things
> Ne - focused on "what if" and possibilities, doesn't like to be tied down to one option, seeks other ways of doing things
> Se - focused on the present and immediately relevant, doesn't like to be held down or to theorize, reacts and makes adjustments in the moment
> 
> Each of these functions lives in different world, a different timeframe, they focus on areas of life that have very little in common with other functions. As far as only cognitive function interactions go yes, Si hero would be loyal enough to make Se weakling feel secure but Ni lives in the future and to Si that future is too impractical and too out there to be considered, and it usually isn't how things used to be done up to that moment which requires change and Si doesn't like change.
> 
> If an INFJ starts a relationship with a Ni weakling user they will soon notice how indecisive they are (indecisive enough to trigger Ne nemesis suspicions) and how little regard they have for others' will - how pushy they can be with what they want (and that won't fly with Ni hero, not for long at least).
> 
> However Ni hero is seen as trustworthy by another Ni hero user when they show their determination - it takes care of their partner's Ne nemesis, fits right into it. Every Se weakling insecurity, every doubt in self worth of introverted critic, every burgeoning paranoia of Ne nemesis can be soothed by a focused Ni look and a simple declaration of indomitable will "I want to be with you". This mechanism will work similarly for each T/F variant pairing, providing for partners' respective cognitive functions derived psychological needs.
> 
> Maybe this analogy will make it clearer. Imagine Ne-Si chassis as that of a plane and Ni-Se as that of a tank while T-F are weaponry systems that offend different classes of targets (like anti-infantry, anti-armor, anti-air, anti-fortified). Yes it's potentially useful to have air support, even one that can destroy the same targets as you can because, seeing the battlefield from a different perspective, they can open a new way through the enemy line that you couldn't fathom was possible. But a plane flies faster than a tank can ever move and it cannot keep fighting as long as a land vehicle can because being weight limited it needs to resupply more often - it won't be around always when the ground troops need it, at that precise place and time. When things get tough and I have enemies all around me - I'm not going put all my hope and trust in a promise that air support will miraculously show up. I need someone who has my back, right there on the ground, deep in the mud, who I can reach with my shout even when communication devices break. Someone who is locked in the same situation that I am, but has the systems and armaments to detect and obliterate targets that I can't. Neither can Ne-Si plane tie itself down to a ground unit because you have your limitations and your own hostiles up in the air to worry about.
> But it's not like Ne is unavailable to Ni and likewise. Returning to the tank metaphor, when your Ni-Se teammate covers your back (sense of security, alleviated fears) you can take your eyes off the periscope and launch a drone (inside-out personality), remotely controlling it and seeing the battlefield from Ne's perspective. It might even have some rockets or bombs attached - it's no match for a plane but as an auxiliary support, available whenever needed - it meets the requirements perfectly and allows for more options.
> Same with plane pilots - when one circles over the airport the other can land to resupply and man the AA truck on the ground in the meantime to take a hostile off their wing-man's tail if need be.
> 
> I've seen an argument that Ne teaches Ni to be more open and to let go but being with high Ne user does not afford me (INFJ) any real sense of freedom, it just an illusion, a wave of magic wand because Ne can forget about responsibility and future by going up into the clouds but Ni can't! Ni needs to produce a situation in which there are no consequences in order to let itself go (or have their back covered by equally responsponsible Ni user). What Ne-Si user would wait for that to happen? None, they will try to pull you with them and if you don't go, seeing what consequences await, then you are a bore and a grump.
> 
> That's why N-S need to be the same while T-F can, and should, be opposite.
> 
> 
> *Chapter 9: Additional relevant mechanisms of interaction between cognitive functions*
> 
> The basic operation is that introverted function calculates, simulates and produces original content (processing), extroverted function sucks that in and externalizes it into the world (input-output). Extroverted function can do a measure of processing - via putting together what it has already learned and making a semi original idea, like a collage and introverted function can understand outside world by putting it apart and after finding consistency - simulating. What I want to focus now though is the default interaction between introverted and extroverted and that is introverted produces, extroverted sucks in.
> 
> Imagine Ti as a container. A Ti hero is a really big tank that takes a long time to get filled with stored ideas because they need to pass through an insanely elaborate system of consistency checks.
> Te is like a drainage, a hole to fill with them. Te hero then is a bottomless pit or a black hole with it's own gravitational pull sucking Ti content into itself.
> Te hero will be perpetually hungry but Ti hero will not be perpetually filled. When Ti tank is overflowing then it wants let go of it's contents and then draining through Te is most welcome. When the Ti tank isn't full then being drained becomes tiring.
> What happens when Ti hero is in a relationship with a Te hero? Ti tank gets drained to the bottom rapidly and then there's nothing left for Te hero to suck in. Then Ti hero withdraws and Te hero remains desperately hungry and might pester Ti hero for more which activates Te nemesis paranoia and makes Ti hero withdraw even more. That in turn activates Ti nemesis paranoia in Te user because they don't know what that Ti is thinking anymore and that's scary. That's not a very good arrangement, don't you think?
> 
> Now the lower Ti is on the list the less detailed consistency checks it needs to pass before forming a conclusion. Imagine Ti weakling as a very small container which gets full quite fast. The conclusion is rather simple, there isn't much of it but it's there just when another hunger pang strikes and it doesn't matter for Ti inferior if it gets sucked dry because it's gonna get full soon again anyway. Imagine that act of draining as eating, it is essentially feeding in energetical terms (whatever that really means). When you take a small bite of something and when you put a lot into your mouth at once - the sensation of taste isn't all that different, if there is any in the first place (assuming it's just more of the same, not other dishes mixed in). I've talked about balancing before but what I'm saying now is yet another reason why I think Te hero will work best with Ti inferior and Ti hero with Te inferior. In the former's case, when Te draining power is low it won't usually empty out that Ti hero tank, it'll only suck up a bit of the excess energy and that way Ti hero won't feel drained and won't lock itself out of the relationship.
> 
> There's another thing that needs to be said. Since extroverted function does not generate consistency it cannot govern itself - it's blind, it's cutting corners, it's decision is quick but inaccurate. Some extroverted function users rise in pride and reject introverted function's authority and go on and form e.g. religious institutions with Fe and academia with Te. That self governance is illegitimate though. First and foremost that prideful extroverted function user has to face their internal authority in form of introverted negative function. INTJ for example has to be able to look honestly about their achievements and whether the Te status they were given actually suffices to fulfill the demands of their Ti critic which tells them when they are still shit at stuff. That's difficult but it's very important, that's a crucial step towards maturity - properly incorporating the feedback, in form of negative consistency checks (e.g. knowing when something is illogical), from your introverted negative function. Without that you'll never know the truth whether you're worthy or not, and you'll just live in that escapist, comfortable bubble of extroverted 'safety in group' mentality where nobody actually checks anything and keeps to any form of consistency - _no one is invalidated, but nobody is right. _Extroverted functions form echo chambers, beware! I adjourn you reader - be mature and admit with humility that your extroverted function isn't it's own master but a servant, a helper - first to your introverted negative function, then to your partner's positive introverted function. In return you'll gain the right to the authority in your positive introverted judging function, even if it's low in the stack.
> 
> Now that this is understood I'll tell you another allegory. Imagine Fi as a king making decisions and Fe as a regent, taking care of formalities and gathering feedback from the world outside of the palace in which the king is secluded and protected. If Fi is a hero then it is a capable ruler in his own right and only needs some imput on what's going on because he has his own informants (Fe nemesis shadow agents). Fi hero king doesn't need anyone doing things for him and the best 'regent' would be a feeble, insecure Fe inferior secretary who the king has nothing to be afraid of from. If he had a regent in form of fully capable Fe hero then the Fi king would grow suspicious of her and eventually tried Fe for treason and attempt at coup d'etat - and with 'secret police' being overactive as it will be when the king never trusted his regent in the first place - it's off with Fe hero regent's head, whether she's actually guilty or not. However when the king is an infant, an Fi weakling then it desperately needs the proficiency and overzealous approach of Fe hero regent. That web of Fe hero's control holds the Fi weakling monarch up on his little feet and makes his governance possible. That does require the regent to be loyal and dedicated to the service to the monarchy though, but that's what love is for.
> 
> There's one more allegory I can think of for that mechanism, very similar but maybe simpler and thus clearer. Imagine Fi as a source of heat - that heat being self-love. The pampering by Fe then becomes a fluffy blanket. If you pair the strongest heater with the fluffiest blanket then it's going to be unbearable. The heater of Fi inferior on the other hand can take the fluffiest Fe blanket just fine and then it's comfortably warm for both of them.
> 
> This one, I thought, explains the internal interaction between high extroverted and high negative introverted, the need to develop it and involve it in your decision making process. So... imagine high introverted negative function as a very stern father and high extroverted as a naive girl that wants to escape him and enjoy this romance she heard all about. The girl might fall for a very confident, brash man _(high positive introverted in another person) _hoping he'd set her free from the burdens her strict father puts on her. Initially it's dreamy and ecstatic but then the girl falls in love more and more and expects the man to tie himself down to her however the man, protective of his independence, doesn't fancy that idea much at all, so he leaves her. Then the girl, forlorn and sorrowful, returns to her father's house, gets sneaped by him and suffers even more. As unpleasant as it is, I'm sure you can see how that strict father was merely trying to protect her, even if the only way he knew how do that was by demanding discipline. Have the girl listen to her strict father _(introverted nemesis/critic)_, interact with him, fulfill his demands, build a connection and she'll understand that he only has her best intentions in his heart. Then the girl can invite a man she's interested in for a dinner and her father will scrutinize him for her, since she's not a man and doesn't know what to look out for _(extroverted unable to gauge consistency)_.
> 
> 
> *Chapter 10: "It's a nice theory and all but it didn't work"*
> 
> 
> Initially I thought that this solution works out of the box but I've been proven wrong when reading through many accounts online _(not majority in any way but significant enough)_. I recognize now that there are some recurring issues that usually have to do with thinkers being underdeveloped in their feeling function and feelers in their thinking function. Looking at reports of clashes between ENTJs and ENFJs, how ENTJ women get dumped because they commit some faux pas before an ENFJ guy and so on I remembered something I went through with an INTJ. He blurted out something I considered inappropriate publicly and even though in my heart of hearts I had similar desires as him I initially judged him to be a prick - 'how could he just be confident and open about things like that, he must be a bad guy' I thought. Despite that initial clash, which I didn't voice, later on we became friends. I enjoyed talking to him a lot and, well, he kept replying so I think it worked both ways. Unfortunately when I shared something with him that didn't fall neatly into his Te bubble of credible, he cut contact with me. This time I have commited a faux pas, despite only stating the truth, but sadly he didn't have the mercy for me that I had for him.
> 
> It boggled my mind but recently I've understood where the problem actually lies. First however let us ponder on the words of this wizard:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I don't really know who the guy is but looking at the titles in recommended videos I'm not of one mind with him so don't cut corners and reject what I'm saying because of association, there's none. Still, as silly and offensive as it sounds - what he has said is absolutely true, everyone is retarded, at least in some way. Translating his conclusion into the realm of cognitive functions I say this: *people are delusional*. And again, everyone is, me included. Each individual has but a limited piece of reality given to them by their cognitive functions and even that can't be trusted - and yet it's all that people have, don't they. Well, that's what maturity and personal development is for - it widens that visible spectrum. It gives us the capability to notice what we've been doing wrong and how we harmed other people - not because they actually wronged us but merely because of our misperceptions. Nobody starts mature so everyone is guilty of that sin in some degree.
> 
> First rule you need to keep in mind when engaging your T/F variant is not to judge by appearances but verify them through your introverted negative function instead. That's easy to fix though, I wasn't really that mature and I could look past that INTJ's initial mishap, even without knowing about Fe trickster. Just a bit of patience and understanding and problem goes away. In short don't judge the book by it's cover.
> 
> Then there's a deeper issue. I've been looking more into ENTJ-ENFJ recently and what I've seen is ENTJs fantasizing about ENFJs but when coming in contact with them they either get ghosted or they themselves break the deal because ENFJ is fake and manipulative. In some cases that might be absolutely right and without any fault of ENTJ but probably not in most cases. Why an ENTJ would react so strongly to ENFJ being fake? The ugly truth is that these ENTJs are most likely just as fake. Facing your T/F variant is very similar to facing your own type. You'll immediately notice your own flaws in them. How is ENTJ fake if they have Fi and not Fe? Well they're fake through their Te. They pretend they're these apex predators that can't be harmed and say how they want the honest truth but they can't handle the raw truth. I suspected Fi inferior is easy to wound but I did not expect how easy it actually is until I harmed one with honesty she supposedly wanted. At least through that experience I understood that ENTJ-INFJ is sub optimal. I don't have enough excess Fe kindness to bubble wrap everything that goes out of my lips. Fe hero does though.
> 
> T/F variant pairing is the optimal pairing but it does have some requirements, understanding which will further prove why it is better than every other option. Dating your T/F variant requires you to either have already made peace with your own self or be ready to go there. If you're still deep in the mud of misperceptions and haven't worked out the fundamental challenges of your ego then you'll see all of your flaws in the other person and instead of it being a prompt to make a correction in yourself - it'll make the relationship unbearable. Your T/F variant requires a certain degree of maturity and healthy perception (or at the very least the capability for dialogue which so few people actually have!) but it also reinforces and keeps you in that healthiest state. If an ENFJ dates an INTP instead all they'll ever get is empty Fe inferior platitudes that sound nice and comforting but don't really help against Fi nemesis because they lack consistency. It'll be easier, it'll even help both develop their inferior functions (up to a certain level at least because Ti hero will be relegated to carrying for Ti inferior which doesn't give it experience points) but it's ultimately false. Neither of them will ever have that certainty that they proved themselves to be good people, not to the degree that they need at least. Same happens with ENTJs and INFPs. I've even seen some meme about it in which character embodying ENTJ was annoyed with INFPs's vapid praises. As it oftentimes happens in life - the easier option is not the better one.
> 
> Understand your nemesis function and approach it's feedback with that understanding. Face your critic and fulfill it's demands. Don't trust your trickster, learn humility instead. Gain another point of support in your lower functions so that you can admit that you've been wrong without having to face every time you do that. If both you and your partner have worked these out then you should be fine. Without that no matter what relationship you go into you'll keep hurting the other person.
> 
> Even without all of that - just the willingness to enter an honest dialogue would be enough but great many people get hurt along the way and are afraid to open up. If you never open up though then you don't really have anything going with that person and you're wasting your time and theirs. Dialogue, dialogue, dialogue. Listen and work out misunderstandings. That alone would go do even without any additional requirements but since I've seen how people tend to be so incapable of that simple act of honest conversation just in case I recommend you better work on yourself in advance.
> 
> Notice that every advice I've given isn't solely applicable to a relationship with your T/F variant. It's just that T/F variant requires that level of maturity from the start and breaks easily if there's no willingness to go in the right direction, like a canary in a mine. It doesn't allow you to cut corners and cheat your way out of the challenges of your psyche and that's why, despite the hurdles, it remains the optimal pairing.
> 
> A fair warning about narcissistic INTJs and haughty INFJs. Initially I didn't know what to do with these observations, I thought every INTJ who's displaying the level of narcissism, that I've been witnessing, must've been a mistyped INFP. It escaped me how would a low introverted function go into such extremes, when it starts so unimposing and honest but I think I now have some idea what's going on. How it happens, I presume, is since child function cannot support itself properly on it's own it looks to environment for some warmth/respect. Then, if IN_J gets repeatedly neglected, mocked or rejected by others, when they try to display their child function _(usually due to trickster misunderstandings and naivete),_ the pain might become unbearable. This in turn can make IN_J's child function escape into introverted parent position in a very unhealthy, overly defensive, disdainful way - building a sort of egomaniac carapace around itself and preemptively harming/insulting others through extraverted critic. I think I've had some episodes like that, that's how I figured what's going on, hell, maybe some weaker version occured even in this thread and I hadn't noticed _(and, if that's the case, I'm sorry, for what it's worth)_.
> 
> Now then if both sides are overly defensive then the less mature one will break contact first, without even allowing for counter-argumentation, and then that's it. Can't reach them anymore, even if you were wrongly accused. On that note I can see how ENTJ-INFJ and ENFJ-INTJ would have easier time with that particular hurdle, since it's easier for EN_J to let IN_J walk over them, but that in turn errs on the side of enabling this unhealthy behaviour and it's not like a foolproof solution anyway. I've heard an ENTJ woman saying that 'with an INFJ it's one bad move and you're out' or something along those lines so that must've happened to her as well.
> 
> I'd advise to INFJs to check whether the particular INTJ, they've set their eyes on, can sympathize with them or not before they invest themselves. Some INTJs seem to hold that idea that everyone is responsible for their own emotions, despite not having a competent, balanced grasp of their own _(which is where Fe parent training wheels should come into play)_. I'm sure you understand that no, actually intimate, human relationship can function under that fraudulent assumption. So if you're fishing for ideas: how you can test it is to share some not very important but sad or hurtful detail of your past and if the INTJ ghosts you then you've dodged a bullet, there's no need to feel hurt about it - it's not your fault in this case, _NTJs regret being so emotionally ignorant and immature later on in their lives from the conversations I had with some. You can try to change their mind, and, in the long run, the relationship between INFJ and INTJ hangs on both being able to change their minds when the other is in the wrong (guess that goes for every relationship but it's more difficult with IN_Js) but there's not guarantee that you will if they cannot muster even simplest sympathy towards you. If you want to go that path then prepare to turn the other cheek until the INTJ sees through their delusion, fighting back is inadvisable because it adds the fuel to fire of the hurt they've experienced from others in the past _(probably not even understanding why)_. Know this though: so long as INTJ remains narcissistic - has their soul short-circuited to artificially provide the love they've been denied when they needed it the most - there's no place for your affection for them in their life, they won't appreciate it, even if they tolerate it. You'll be neglected and abused and that shouldn't be happening - that's not how this relationship is meant to work. The Fi child Fe parent option works because child doesn't love themselves enough and seeks that love from the other and INFJ is happy to provide that. On a side note some INTJ seeming narcissistic are merely ignorant about how they affect others emotionally and that one should be an easy fix because they don't actually mean it.
> 
> 
> *Chapter 11: Closing thoughts*
> 
> People are only people and even the perfect design can fail when using imperfect materials, there's always an element of unpredictability involved, but I do think that this is the perfect design and building from anything else will, sooner or later, end up in a failed or unfulfilling relationship. It's the only model that does not have any flaws built into it. There's more to compatibility than type, one could imagine a stratified layer system but *type pairing is the foundation*. The single most important layer to get right if you want a happy relationship instead of just one that you are content with and it's the only thing that does not change. Not every INFJ will fit every INTJ, but a reasonably well matched, in terms of other 'layers', INTJ will outclass any other type in compatibility with said INFJ. No one but another Ni hero can permanently alleviate Ne nemesis to the extent it needs to be alleviated! Other T/F variant pairings solve analogous problems, built into us as our stack of cognitive functions - our nature. With any other pairing you have to work around miscommunication, competition for energy sources, unfulfilled psychological needs, redundant personalities which get pushed out of relationship, unalleviated fears and insecurities, incomplete judging function set.
> 
> I've had a conversation with my mother recently which made me realize something. Long story short she's afraid of retiring. Why is she afraid? Because she'll have to deal with Ti nemesis then, having no external validation for her capability. Well maybe if my father was not a Ti hero user, so afraid of being controlled that he has to do everything by himself, my mother wouldn't feel so useless around him.
> 
> Do you see what happens when you don't have a dedicated, portable source of nourishment for your extroverted judging functions at your side? You're trying to fill that hunger, that quenchless, gorging void using the outside world and conditions in the outside world are fickle to say the least. How are you to build a lasting structure if, instead of having it internally balanced, your support for it lies on shifting sands that can be taken away any moment a stronger wind blows? If you rely on the outside world you're a slave to the outside world and the one who controls it. However if you are relying on your loving spouse for fulfilling your cognitive needs, while you become a slave to your spouse because of it as long as they are your match (T-F variant pairing) they are bound with the same slavery to you so if one falls the other shall not stand without their other half. It's in best of both of your interests to support one another.
> 
> Do you understand? It is not about my INFJ brand whimsical romantic idealism or snobbish pickiness when it comes to relationships (although the reason we tend to be like that is because deep down we know that if we are not equally yoked with our partner then it's not worth the effort). Just like health problems are mostly caused by unhealthy lifestyle choices so mental health problems are largely a cognitive function malnutrition or imbalance issue.
> 
> Have you noticed that there is a rift between men an women (like men are from Mars and women from Venus sort of thinking)? Have you considered that people who treat the opposite sex as dehumanized means of sexual gratification or financial gain are fundamentally detached from them because they cannot relate? Do you see how having the same core of needs and mental focus (N-S functions) provides that inherently comprehensible, deeply intimate relatability? They are like you, and justifying harmful, selfish behaviour against someone who is like you is much more difficult than against someone who is alien to you. T/F variant pairing requires the relationship to be built on a foundation of agape love instead of eros love like it's done in vast majority of cases (because of immediate attraction which is just a result of cognitive function magnetism which people mistakenly identify as "love"). Eros love is still there, but it's a follower, not the decision maker so even when situation gets rough and it's difficult to get into the mood the relationship doesn't fall apart because of the foundation of agape love which goes deeper than immediate attraction. T/F pairing is on cognitive function level that other half of yourself, like you but complementing your abilities, like two hemispheres of the same brain - one feeling the other rational. If only I could relay how many issues are solved with this.
> 
> Tell me what you think, I'd like to know if I'm in the wrong and if - why, so please at least have some grasp on the concepts of '4 sides of mind' and shadow/negative functions or we won't understand one another. Observations on how T/F variant pairings work in real life are very welcome as well. There's always a very real possibility that I might've missed something, but so far (16 thread pages in) so good.
> 
> If you decide to read the thread first couple pages are not responding to the version of OP you've read but to a version that's been quoted in post #13, keep that in mind.
> 
> Oh and in a case I've managed to convince you - _share it. With? Whoever you share with. Whoever you know, the people you're close to._ Ideally someone who understands cognitive functions so they can come here and prove me wrong, haha. Myself, I'm as certain as I can be right now, but even on a chance that I have gotten some things wrong - at the very least the bit about Ni-Se needing another Ni-Se and not Ne-Si has to become common knowledge, especially among people who will end up spreading type pairings recommendations of any kind. I don't care about fame or recognition, I'm pseudonymous, when I'm done with this I probably won't even post around here anymore, I just want the suffering that I went through to repeat as little as it's possible.
> 
> 
> 
> *Addendum 1: A deeper look on introverted and extroverted judging functions and their interactions*
> 
> Since some INFPs in the thread have raised their concerns about being with someone with Fe I felt the need to touch on the matter.
> 
> First things first - not all Fi users will be immediately suspicious about displays of Fe (only Fe nemesis and Fe critic users). The trick is in proper alignment, I've talked about 'signal strength' in Chapter 0 Condition 2.
> 
> Now let's consider how the introverted judging functions relate to their extroverted counterparts to get a better understanding why they need each other (and why it's best to have both easily available within your romantic relationship). Introverted judging function is focused on the internal, on that primordial soup of either feelings or concepts but that soup is disconnected from the external world by default. Sometimes Fi users can become detached from other people's feelings/values and trample on them, just like Ti theoretical model can be detached from real world data and be wrong to a point of endangering human lives if the design built from it ever gets into production.
> 
> In the end what Fi does is that it strives to be internally cohesive/consistent emotion/morality/identity system, based on data points available (and a lot of those data points are provided by Fe mind you, via inside-out form or from other people - because the self perceives itself in relation to others through contrast). Even when perfectly cohesive internally it doesn't mean that it's correct by default. Situation is analogous with Ti and Te, it's just instead of the realm of meaning and feelings (F) it happens in the realm of truth and sense.
> 
> When Fe ends up with Fe, and a time for whim based decision comes, it goes like:
> "So what do you feel like doing?"
> "I don't know, how about you? What do you feel like doing?"
> "Not really sure, is there nothing that you feel like doing?"
> Until one *forces themselves* into deciding and bleed energy. They're not comfortable making that decision, they haven't farmed enough Fe justification to be selfish for a change (going into their inside-out). They aren't developing themselves, they're forcing themselves to be someone they are not.
> 
> If we're just talking personal development (building your sense of self out of other people's identities, finding what works for you and discarding what doesn't) you could rely on someone else's introverted function as a makeshift solution, but again, when it comes to decision making that doesn't really work.
> "What do you feel like doing today?"
> "I don't know, let's ask your sister what she wants to do and let's spend time together"
> "Fantastic idea!"
> But will they invite this Fi sister to the bedroom too?
> On some level a person can feed their extraverted function by relying on outsiders but there are also more intimate needs which relate to that Fe-Fi feeding mechanism that can only be properly met by your significant other.
> 
> Now with two Fi users you get another stalemate:
> "I feel like doing this."
> "Well, I feel like doing that other thing."
> Until one *forces themselves *into sacrificing their whim for today, bleeding energy, or they go their own ways and if that continues they split for good.
> I understand that it seems to be rational to think that requiring this sort of sacrifice would be the way to go in order to make someone less selfish but the problem lies in that act of *forcing*. This is a stress factor which builds up over time and since this is the default forms interaction it's going to build up fast.
> 
> The proper solution is this: Fe user caters to Fi user's whims, fulfilling both of their immediate psychological needs, until Fi user, out of their own volition, starts sympathizing with Fe user and does something for Fe user or provides a justification for doing something Fe user would like but cannot allow themselves to do without Fi (and with T/F variant pairing that sympathizing simulation is accurate because of identical N-S needs).
> 
> The problem with Te-Te might not be immediately noticeable in relationship setting but it still far from optimal. Te likes majority rules, but majority of people aren't capable of judging logical validity on their own so putting your trust in herd mentality where the herd is full of Te users leads us into a pitfall. It might be tempting to fall back into that hive mind, seeing all the Te users around you agree with all the Te users around you (most of them in utter ignorance of the logic behind the matter at hand because they cannot verify it, only believe or disbelieve it until they look at real life data) never risking being seen as stupid but it's nothing but a giant circlejerk of circular reasoning of "renowned academic A said renowned academic B is right and renowned academic B said renowned academic C is right and renowned academic C said that renowned academic A is right so they are all in the right, I mean this many renowned academics couldn't be wrong, right?"
> 
> Tesla (INTJ) was right that physics has deteriorated into theoretical musings devoid of experimentation but so was Feynman (ENTP) when he left some sort of scientific association (I can't remember what it was exactly) saying that he sees no point in belonging to an organization which only purpose is to decide who to let in. Both of them are right. Both extremities of Te and Ti pull us away from the truth - this is one of the reasons why a pair of people that live together should have both accessible by default in order not to be blind!
> 
> But it's not only about the lofty goals like pursuit of truth. Having the complete set of judging functions within relationship provides a safeguard against lemming type behaviours which can endanger the livelyhood of the family. I don't know if that will be a good example but let's say nearly everyone is investing in a new, super convincingly advertised cryptocurrency and Te sees no reason to believe it could fail so it's ready to pour marriage's lifesaving into it but then Ti looks at it, verifies it and says: "No, we're not doing that. I don't care if everyone's doing that, they are wrong and I know because I have the capability to verify what makes sense on my own, I'm not reliant on who can I believe". Analogously Fi allows the couple to stand against community's values if are warped and morally inconsistent (because ultimately Fi judgement of their partner is more important to an Fe user than the 'collective Fi' of society, unless that individual Fi judgement is clearly mistaken because of insufficient data points which Fe then provides and sways that judgement).
> 
> Yes, I can pick up on amazing new concepts via my ENFP anima's Te child if I'm devoid of things that can trigger my Ne nemesis. Yes I can drive people into the mud with my ESTP's Te critic if I think they deserve it. Yes I can focus on the raw facts in detached manner via my super ego, judge jury and executioner ISTJ but there are many Te things I can't do well at all. A single person is incomplete in their ability to interact with the world and that is judging function domain. And an INFP needs the logic of an INTP because there is a difference between knowing a concept and the ability to understand it.
> 
> Now looking back at Fi-Fi interaction - that other Fi user has their own selfish desire to be pampered, listened and appreciated for their individuality (known) which Fi partner cannot do (from the ego at least). With Fi you can only sympathize - simulate, put yourself in their shoes - completely bypassing their actual individuality, their real feelings! Only Fe can take in Fi as it is, without interference from the self. Only Fe can truly experience another person's Fi.
> 
> And yea, I get it, it's not like you cannot look into their feelings - I can verify another Ti user's logic so Fi can interact with Fi, understanding is possible but it's not flowing effortlessly. It's more like "iron sharpens iron" situation, there are benefits to it, but knife is not meant to cleave into another knife but rather into whatever is getting sliced. There's also the issue of conflicting ideas about where to go with your life - when there's Fe, it will most likely yield to Fi because it's not strong enough to resist it (it can only try to entice it into going the other way). When it's Fi-Fi one day there might come a decision that will cause the pair to go their separate ways (and I've heard that argument being used against Ni-Ni relationships, but it's not Ni that is the decision maker - judging functions are).
> 
> Remember you need Fe to actually care about what you're talking when you're dumping your pent up emotional loads. Another Fi user won't take you in, they'll flow in their own Fi bubble having their own impressions and emotions about what you're saying just like I, hearing Ti user's idea about how things should be done, have my own ideas in the works. Why is that bad? For example whenever I help my ISTP father with some work he has a tendency to think out loud about how to approach the project, which I used to understand as him fishing for ideas but when my Ti child, eager to speak it's mind, opens up I get shot down immediately, sometimes without my idea being considered at all - just dismissed with a stock phrase, because he already knows better and doesn't even care about what I have to say (and then he has the audacity to complain how I'm never interested in anything we do, how I don't get involved and just wait for commands like a robot). This is how it probably feels for a low Fi user to interact with Fi hero.
> 
> Now let's have a look at an example flow chart of how Te-Ti and Fe-Fi interactions look when the functions are properly aligned.
> 
> INTJ-INFJ case:
> Fe parent takes feedback from the environment ->Ni-Fi computes and constructs meaning/moral judgement -> Fe parent picks it back up without confusing interference from Fe trickster -> Fi critic reacts if something is morally inconsistent -> if nothing is wrong Fe parent puts it out into the environment in emotionally digestible way.
> 
> INFP-INTP case:
> Te weakling is confused about perceived reality and cannot make sense of it -> Ti hero comes to the rescue bypassing it's Te nemesis because the INFP's Ti is virtually non existent so it's invisible to the nemesis -> Te weakling is awed by Ti hero and gets uplifted and smarter at the same time eventually leading it to take on ESTJ challenges -> Ti hero feels like a hero for saving the weakling Te from oppression.
> 
> 
> 
> *Addendum 2*: *Extroverted hero - introverted weakling interaction and deeper look into ENTJ-ENFJ pairing*
> 
> I think I have understood what Te is a little better so I'll add a deeper examination of how it works between ENTJ and an ENFJ as an example.
> 
> So Te, especially Te hero is like spider's web of schemes and machinations, spreading it's control outside in an effort to stave off the dread that is Ti nemesis constantly afraid of it's own worth, seeking praise and respect from others. Just like with Ne hero or Ni hero in essence the top function is full of insecurity, much like the weakling only the weakling is strong on the inside (holding the keys to demonic or angelic manifestation of the super ego) while the hero is weak on the inside (nemesis being it's kryptonite).
> What happens when Ti hero, seemingly completely self assured and able to stand head to head with Te hero, gets caught in Te's hero net? Te hero fears it cannot contain it so it tries harder and Ti hero, afraid of being controlled, tries to break each attempt until leaving both functions unfulfilled in their roles.
> Now a Ti weakling is not only is unafraid of outside control - it isn't even aware of the machinations around it! How could it be if it cannot even stand on it's own legs, seeking to lean on something like a plant that cannot grow further without a string to hold it up? Can you see how that elaborate spider web instead of being seen as restrictive and oppressive actually provides support? How the puppeteer's strings can move the limbs to allow the trembling weakling to perform feats it could never have otherwise on it's own, slowly gaining confidence and competence to be a hero on it's own via aspirational ISTP form? Don't worry though, the most comfortable form is still the ego so there won't be enough of Ti hero time to get Te hero feel insecure and unappreciated, just enough to keep things fresh, pull back on the strings for a bit so that the predator becomes the victim via INTP form.
> 
> How would it look from Ti weaklings perspective? We'll assume that the extroverted function is female since it's empty and needing to be filled while introverted function is internally full and produces excess content that needs to be siphoned out of it so it's male.
> "Oh shit oh shit oh shit oh fuck a T hero AND A WOMAN TOO oh shit oh shit stay calm stay calm CAN'T STAY CALM wow she's so amazing and so helpful and able just wow oh no she's looking in my direction SHE'S COMING RIGHT AT ME what do I do what do I do, if she comes any closer I'm going to blow my appraisal of her worth right in her face!"
> And perhaps from Te hero's perspective it'd be like this:
> "Everybody around me gets burdened by my power and deserts me. To be at the top means to be alone, doesn't it. Oh, what do we have here? A Ti weakling? He doesn't look threatening at all. He's kinda cute actually, maybe he could use my help." And then she approaches but is taken off guard by the uncalculated accolade warming her cheeks. "I didn't even do anything yet and you're already so appreciative of me? I mean ekhm... Of course you would be. I'm a Te hero aren't I? See how amazing I am? Do you want to follow me? You can witness my feats and hmm... maybe I'll have you praise me some more later."
> And hearing such offer Ti weakling is about to faint from joy.
> It looks very top down and dependent but it's not one sided in any way because analogous situation happens between Fe hero and Fi weakling simultaneously and because truth is that Te hero needs Ti weakling just much as Ti weakling needs Te hero.
> 
> Being in a relationship like that would have Te hero fulfilled by it and it wouldn't look out to others for the respect it needs to shield itself from it's nemesis. Most pressing needs are met within the bounds of the pairing, having both parties sated and this results in Te hero being healthy and balanced instead of overbearing or domineering. Maybe if someone's Te hero wouldn't feel so threatened by insufficient intimacy we wouldn't be at the brink of WW3. Yes, psychological needs are that important so... ENFJs if you're reading this, let's just say that, if they knew about these correlations, everyone with half a wit would be counting on you to save the rest of us from imbalanced Te heroes of ENTJs through the power of your hmm... determined love.
> 
> Having everyone know how to build a loving, truly fulfilling relationship won't solve all of humanity's problems but most of you cannot fathom how many issues would simply vanish if everyone or at least most of us were in marriages with our other half, that has all the missing pieces that we need to be complete.


I was about to make a long text to debate, before I started reading, because frankly I agree with you and you make a very good theory, I was intrigued all the time, thank you for your work.


----------



## lilacleia16

ciel sos infel said:


> Ah okay, so archetypes.
> 
> So inferior is better imagined as a weakling. Just like parent will want to take care of the child so a hero will feel most like a hero when rescuing a weakling. For it to be balanced though these need to be opposite polarities _(even though a function is weak and needs to be supported by the higher function it can do the things that the other can't)_.
> 
> Nemesis _(or the 'opposing personality' in that table)_ is on a lookout for the function it targets _(so Fe nemesis targets Fe)_. Whenever it finds signs of it in the other person it sends distress signal: 'they're fake, they're flimsy, they're trying to manipulate us' and so on. However the weakling is so helpless that it goes under the radar of the nemesis function. In ISTP-ISFP case okay, ISTP doesn't have Fi identity at all but he's independent through his Ti and won't bend to Fi hero's every whim _(which normally activates nemesis)_. Interestingly enough, if it was Fi weakling though, that weakling is so flimsy it instead gets interpreted as high Fe and sends the nemesis into high alert.
> 
> Critic (or witch, or senex) will see that the other side is just as critical of themselves as it is and that builds trust. ISTP denies himself comfort and you deny yourself comfort, that's camaraderie. Both being like that each will strive to take care of the other so that the other doesn't overexert themselves. In my case, whenever I attempted to help my father out with some things he was reluctant to let me - but I'm not very confident with my Se and, having Ne nemesis, I assumed that it's his explicit assertion of his free will and I didn't want to infringe on it, and here's where Ni child makes it work.
> 
> Ni child won't all that much about what the other person says they want or don't want and will just take over and relieve them of their load. ISFP will be made justified by their whims, or it being the morally right thing to do and ISTP will be made justified by it making sense to help the other out. With internal justifications this strong the other side, having extroverted function, will usually relent and let their partner help them out.
> 
> Neither will know very well what each other's intentions are, both have Ne tricksters, but since both have Ni children they will both express their wants to each other, because child function is needy. That removes a lot of misunderstandings. Ne trickster would be annoyed by Ne hero/Ni nemesis and very confused by Ni trickster and Ni demon but that doesn't happen in this pairing.
> 
> I don't really like the term 'demon', with how ignorant the function is I call it 'blind man' personally. For the most part demon function is just oblivious. It's so oblivious that it can ignore even the strongest signal and that is the signal of Fi hero. It's annoying for the demon function's user to reach into it and the realm of it's governance. ISTP won't need to because Fi hero will figure him out - every introverted function can simulate, build consistent models out of thin air. ISFP can simulate ISTP's identity and tell them about themselves and what they actually feel, without ISTP needing to figure it out on their own.
> 
> I think I've covered it all? If not ask.


Ok if I understand this right then it can be simplified into pairs mostly except opposing and trickster which looks for that function in the whole configuration.

Parent-Child
Hero-Inferior
Critic-Critic
Demon is obsolete?

Am I understanding Trickster right? Can you explain trickster a little better?


----------



## ciel sos infel

lilacleia16 said:


> Ok if I understand this right then it can be simplified into pairs mostly except opposing and trickster which looks for that function in the whole configuration.
> 
> Parent-Child
> Hero-Inferior
> Critic-Critic
> Demon is obsolete?


Not in case of ISFP-ISTP. Parent won't interact with child because child is Ni. Trickster will need to be learned not to be relied upon _(but that's something true for everyone)_. Nemesis will not be triggered. Demon will most likely be left alone but I'm not 100% certain.
Make it:
Hero-Inferior (heroic rescue giving meaning Fi or stability Ti to inferior Fe or Te)
Inferior-Hero (taking some weight off the hero by adressing the nemesis' fears)
Parent-Parent (camaraderie, mutual respect and understanding, something like group-feel or group-think but in sensory realm - there isn't a proper word for it)
Critic-Critic (camaraderie, mutual respect and understanding for denying oneself similar things)
Parent-Critic (providing care for the other person where the other person fails to take care for themselves - Si related needs)
Critic-Parent (stopping other person's Se if it goes too far)
Child-Child (camaraderie, understanding, support, acceptance, leniency - neither will annoy the other with a sudden change of mind and with both stating what their want Ne trickster won't need to be engaged to make guesses)

Demon and trickster shouldn't play a role.
Se and Ni will get to participate in opposite polarity union _(a process that feeds energy to extraverted function and discharges introverted function, think of it as coitus on cognitive function level)_ when one of the partners jumps into their shadow, which should be made easily accessible because both partners are disorganized so this gives the organized shadow a chance to shine. It works like that when I see someone as dull and collected as me - I get in a mood to tease them and be playful with them, perhaps also because I know that I'll be accepted even if I fail to be entertaining _(since they were already fine with my boring ego and it's just a bonus)_.



lilacleia16 said:


> Am I understanding Trickster right? Can you explain trickster a little better?


Trickster is a place of false confidence. Ne trickster is something that makes you feel that you're good at reading people's intentions _(what do they want, what would entertain them, who wants you to be around them and many other things)_, but it's really bad at it. This can make Ne trickter user impose themselves on other people or withdraw themselves too soon. It also makes the user naive and easy to trick, but you only trick an IS_P once, because they'll remember everything wrong that happened via Si critic _(whenever an argument happened my father kept to returning to some things from the past that he wasn't happy with me doing to him, even years after the incident)_. There is a possibility I might be conflating what critic and demon do, but that's probably because they work together - so ISFP will remember different slights than ISTP.

Trickster has a mocking attitude towards overuse of the function it targets. You probably won't like EN_Ps too much because of that or something about their flightiness or randomness will annoy you. For me, I have Te trickster, that is Te hero asking too many questions, I feel like I'm being invigilated.

A mature use of trickster would be the ability to disregard the realm it targets. For me it's status. I can operate beyond the limitations of hierarchy, authority, degrees, opinions of experts etc. Consider the example of Jesus standing up to scribes and pharisees. For Ne trickster, in ISFPs, I'd assume it will be the ease to disregard what is currently in vogue, doing something true to yourelf or morally right, even if that means that the environment won't want that.

Also consider watching this:


----------



## lilacleia16

ciel sos infel said:


> Not in case of ISFP-ISTP. Parent won't interact with child because child is Ni. Trickster will need to be learned not to be relied upon _(but that's something true for everyone)_. Nemesis will not be triggered. Demon will most likely be left alone but I'm not 100% certain.
> Make it:
> Hero-Inferior (heroic rescue giving meaning Fi or stability Ti to inferior Fe or Te)
> Inferior-Hero (taking some weight off the hero by adressing the nemesis' fears)
> Parent-Parent (camaraderie, mutual respect and understanding, something like group-feel or group-think but in sensory realm - there isn't a proper word for it)
> Critic-Critic (camaraderie, mutual respect and understanding for denying oneself similar things)
> Parent-Critic (providing care for the other person where the other person fails to take care for themselves - Si related needs)
> Critic-Parent (stopping other person's Se if it goes too far)
> Child-Child (camaraderie, understanding, support, acceptance, leniency - neither will annoy the other with a sudden change of mind and with both stating what their want Ne trickster won't need to be engaged to make guesses)
> 
> Demon and trickster shouldn't play a role.
> Se and Ni will get to participate in opposite polarity union _(a process that feeds energy to extraverted function and discharges introverted function, think of it as coitus on cognitive function level)_ when one of the partners jumps into their shadow, which should be made easily accessible because both partners are disorganized so this gives the organized shadow a chance to shine. It works like that when I see someone as dull and collected as me - I get in a mood to tease them and be playful with them, perhaps also because I know that I'll be accepted even if I fail to be entertaining _(since they were already fine with my boring ego and it's just a bonus)_.
> 
> 
> Trickster is a place of false confidence. Ne trickster is something that makes you feel that you're good at reading people's intentions _(what do they want, what would entertain them, who wants you to be around them and many other things)_, but it's really bad at it. This can make Ne trickter user impose themselves on other people or withdraw themselves too soon. It also makes the user naive and easy to trick, but you only trick an IS_P once, because they'll remember everything wrong that happened via Si critic _(whenever an argument happened my father kept to returning to some things from the past that he wasn't happy with me doing to him, even years after the incident)_. There is a possibility I might be conflating what critic and demon do, but that's probably because they work together - so ISFP will remember different slights than ISTP.
> 
> Trickster has a mocking attitude towards overuse of the function it targets. You probably won't like EN_Ps too much because of that or something about their flightiness or randomness will annoy you. For me, I have Te trickster, that is Te hero asking too many questions, I feel like I'm being invigilated.
> 
> A mature use of trickster would be the ability to disregard the realm it targets. For me it's status. I can operate beyond the limitations of hierarchy, authority, degrees, opinions of experts etc. Consider the example of Jesus standing up to scribes and pharisees. For Ne trickster, in ISFPs, I'd assume it will be the ease to disregard what is currently in vogue, doing something true to yourelf or morally right, even if that means that the environment won't want that.
> 
> Also consider watching this:


ISFP trickster is Ne. So after watching this video I understand my blind spot is understanding the intuitive intentions of others. So I get the wool pulled over my eyes. Like guys tell me their feelings and I believe what they say when sometimes they are lying and I can’t tell the difference between the truth and a lie. Naive. I’m naive. I believe everyone is honest or that everyone is a liar. I can accuse people of motives they don’t have to the point of paranoia or overly trust.


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## lilacleia16

ciel sos infel said:


> Not in case of ISFP-ISTP. Parent won't interact with child because child is Ni. Trickster will need to be learned not to be relied upon _(but that's something true for everyone)_. Nemesis will not be triggered. Demon will most likely be left alone but I'm not 100% certain.
> Make it:
> Hero-Inferior (heroic rescue giving meaning Fi or stability Ti to inferior Fe or Te)
> Inferior-Hero (taking some weight off the hero by adressing the nemesis' fears)
> Parent-Parent (camaraderie, mutual respect and understanding, something like group-feel or group-think but in sensory realm - there isn't a proper word for it)
> Critic-Critic (camaraderie, mutual respect and understanding for denying oneself similar things)
> Parent-Critic (providing care for the other person where the other person fails to take care for themselves - Si related needs)
> Critic-Parent (stopping other person's Se if it goes too far)
> Child-Child (camaraderie, understanding, support, acceptance, leniency - neither will annoy the other with a sudden change of mind and with both stating what their want Ne trickster won't need to be engaged to make guesses)
> 
> Demon and trickster shouldn't play a role.
> Se and Ni will get to participate in opposite polarity union _(a process that feeds energy to extraverted function and discharges introverted function, think of it as coitus on cognitive function level)_ when one of the partners jumps into their shadow, which should be made easily accessible because both partners are disorganized so this gives the organized shadow a chance to shine. It works like that when I see someone as dull and collected as me - I get in a mood to tease them and be playful with them, perhaps also because I know that I'll be accepted even if I fail to be entertaining _(since they were already fine with my boring ego and it's just a bonus)_.
> 
> 
> Trickster is a place of false confidence. Ne trickster is something that makes you feel that you're good at reading people's intentions _(what do they want, what would entertain them, who wants you to be around them and many other things)_, but it's really bad at it. This can make Ne trickter user impose themselves on other people or withdraw themselves too soon. It also makes the user naive and easy to trick, but you only trick an IS_P once, because they'll remember everything wrong that happened via Si critic _(whenever an argument happened my father kept to returning to some things from the past that he wasn't happy with me doing to him, even years after the incident)_. There is a possibility I might be conflating what critic and demon do, but that's probably because they work together - so ISFP will remember different slights than ISTP.
> 
> Trickster has a mocking attitude towards overuse of the function it targets. You probably won't like EN_Ps too much because of that or something about their flightiness or randomness will annoy you. For me, I have Te trickster, that is Te hero asking too many questions, I feel like I'm being invigilated.
> 
> A mature use of trickster would be the ability to disregard the realm it targets. For me it's status. I can operate beyond the limitations of hierarchy, authority, degrees, opinions of experts etc. Consider the example of Jesus standing up to scribes and pharisees. For Ne trickster, in ISFPs, I'd assume it will be the ease to disregard what is currently in vogue, doing something true to yourelf or morally right, even if that means that the environment won't want that.
> 
> Also consider watching this:


ISFP and ISTP both have Ne as their trickster. Wouldn’t this make a blind spot that would be unhealthy in a match together so that they either become paranoid of each others motives or overly trusting at face value? I can see how this could be good if neither were paranoid due to previous trust issues and if both were honest at face value but I don’t trust that mankind are honest and mean what they say. So I either trust or distrust based on nothing. He may distrust me for no good reason as well.


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## ciel sos infel

lilacleia16 said:


> ISFP trickster is Ne. So after watching this video I understand my blind spot is understanding the intuitive intentions of others. So I get the wool pulled over my eyes. Like guys tell me their feelings and I believe what they say when sometimes they are lying and I can’t tell the difference between the truth and a lie. Naive. I’m naive. I believe everyone is honest or that everyone is a liar. I can accuse people of motives they don’t have to the point of paranoia or overly trust.


We're all impoverished for not being taught about how we actually work earlier in our lives, before we make these mistakes.

What you've said is mostly correct but it's not all Ne trickster's fault.
To be precise Ne only governs the realm of intentions of other people, their goals, their wants. Every extraverted cognitive function can be used for manipulation, and every introverted function can be used to pretend to something that you don't actually deserve and fool people that way. When you know how to manipulate you know how to evade manipulation as well. When you know what it takes to back up your claims you know who's false. Nemesis and critic functions can fulfill that defensive role as well, trickster and demon, on the other hand, cannot.

Some of your naivete has to do with Te inferior. That's the realm of believability, credibility, status, intellectual information _(good at gathering and organizing data)_, spotting scams and so on. I'd say it starts at a level of naivete comparable to trickster, but contrary to trickster it can be worked on. ISTP has Te nemesis, which is overly paranoid, and between Te inferior naivete and Te nemesis paranoia there's a middle ground which will make unbiased approximations. What is actually true is decided by Ti though. *Te can only judge appearances.*

Some of your paranoia can have to do with Fe nemesis. Fe governs approximating motivations _(good vs evil)_, a sense of fairness, knowing who's trustworthy _(in emotional sense, intellectual is taken care of by Te)_, knowing how to play on emotional strings, knowing what's socially acceptable _(what the norms are)_ etc. Nemesis has all these capabilities but only in the negative sense (who not to trust, what is unfair, who's emotionally fake). This is where you're competent but by default you overdo it and can spot evil that isn't actually there, just like I can jump to conclusions about negative intentions via my Ne nemesis _(IN_Js are some of the most guarded and paranoid types because of that and couple other factors)_. ISTP will be so bad at using Fe that he won't raise your suspicions but he has an ability that you don't. He can approximate positive motivations and trustworthiness, he's just naive about it - so your Fe trickster can guard an ISTP from his naivete in that regard.

So the only thing that remains is Ne incompetence but if you can approximate who's trustworthy and credible then so long as you rely on those, and don't try to approximate someone's intentions _(but rather simulate them - "If I were in his place I would probably want to reach that goal by doing what he's doing", that's done via Ni and your respective Ni's will get better because you'll be given a clear feedback from the other person because they also need it)_, you should be fine.



lilacleia16 said:


> ISFP and ISTP both have Ne as their trickster. Wouldn’t this make a blind spot that would be unhealthy in a match together so that they either become paranoid of each others motives or overly trusting at face value? I can see how this could be good if neither were paranoid due to previous trust issues and if both were honest at face value but I don’t trust that mankind are honest and mean what they say. So I either trust or distrust based on nothing. He may distrust me for no good reason as well.


These are reasonable apprehensions but they are solved by the pairing. Part of these concerns has been addressed above. To reiterate: it's not all governed by Ne.

When it comes to issues coming from Ne, all that's needed is the understanding that you're both bad at guessing games. Both Ni functions are naive, both Ni functions are in positive positions, both will eagerly make their wants and intentions clear _(it's usually the higher introverted functions that are guarded and secretive)_.

Only Ne people trust or distrust based on 'nothing' _(it seems like nothing to us, Ni users, but it's not for them)_. When you have Ni in the ego what you do instead is you perform what's called 'loyalty checks'. For example you devise a test that tells you, if the other person actually wants to be with you. Since both of you don't know how to figure other person's intentions out those loyalty checks won't be seen as an offense _(Ne people, especially heroes and parents, hate being loyalty checked, they don't understand the need for it, they trust you so they expect you to trust them - but, since you don't have ability to gauge intentions like they do - it's very naive for you to simply trust)_. Having Ni child you also won't demand extreme proofs of loyalty as someone with Ni hero would. I think that makes it balanced pretty well. ENFJ would also be too demanding for you in that regard.

When you're being paranoid it's because you're in Fe-Ne negative loop. ISTP doesn't have ulterior emotional motivations and their Fe heart-pulling manipulation capabilities suck _(though the hidden strength of inferior is that nobody expects it when it suddenly jumps into hero level performance, via aspirational form, but that is sporadic and won't be enough to make you suspect them, it's more like a pleasant surprise)_. They don't act on their emotions, not consciously anyway, demon usually doesn't factor into decision making process. Their usual incompetence in emotional realm makes them cute little critters that need protection in ISFP's eyes and the feeling is mutual. An ISTP is not a threat to you and you're not a threat to them.


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## lilacleia16

ciel sos infel said:


> We're all impoverished for not being taught about how we actually work earlier in our lives, before we make these mistakes.
> 
> What you've said is mostly correct but it's not all Ne trickster's fault.
> To be precise Ne only governs the realm of intentions of other people, their goals, their wants. Every extraverted cognitive function can be used for manipulation, and every introverted function can be used to pretend to something that you don't actually deserve and fool people that way. When you know how to manipulate you know how to evade manipulation as well. When you know what it takes to back up your claims you know who's false. Nemesis and critic functions can fulfill that defensive role as well, trickster and demon, on the other hand, cannot.
> 
> Some of your naivete has to do with Te inferior. That's the realm of believability, credibility, status, intellectual information _(good at gathering and organizing data)_, spotting scams and so on. I'd say it starts at a level of naivete comparable to trickster, but contrary to trickster it can be worked on. ISTP has Te nemesis, which is overly paranoid, and between Te inferior naivete and Te nemesis paranoia there's a middle ground which will make unbiased approximations. What is actually true is decided by Ti though. *Te can only judge appearances.*
> 
> Some of your paranoia can have to do with Fe nemesis. Fe governs approximating motivations _(good vs evil)_, a sense of fairness, knowing who's trustworthy _(in emotional sense, intellectual is taken care of by Te)_, knowing how to play on emotional strings, knowing what's socially acceptable _(what the norms are)_ etc. Nemesis has all these capabilities but only in the negative sense (who not to trust, what is unfair, who's emotionally fake). This is where you're competent but by default you overdo it and can spot evil that isn't actually there, just like I can jump to conclusions about negative intentions via my Ne nemesis _(IN_Js are some of the most guarded and paranoid types because of that and couple other factors)_. ISTP will be so bad at using Fe that he won't raise your suspicions but he has an ability that you don't. He can approximate positive motivations and trustworthiness, he's just naive about it - so your Fe trickster can guard an ISTP from his naivete in that regard.
> 
> So the only thing that remains is Ne incompetence but if you can approximate who's trustworthy and credible then so long as you rely on those, and don't try to approximate someone's intentions _(but rather simulate them - "If I were in his place I would probably want to reach that goal by doing what he's doing", that's done via Ni and your respective Ni's will get better because you'll be given a clear feedback from the other person because they also need it)_, you should be fine.
> 
> 
> These are reasonable apprehensions but they are solved by the pairing. Part of these concerns has been addressed above. To reiterate: it's not all governed by Ne.
> 
> When it comes to issues coming from Ne, all that's needed is the understanding that you're both bad at guessing games. Both Ni functions are naive, both Ni functions are in positive positions, both will eagerly make their wants and intentions clear _(it's usually the higher introverted functions that are guarded and secretive)_.
> 
> Only Ne people trust or distrust based on 'nothing' _(it seems like nothing to us, Ni users, but it's not for them)_. When you have Ni in the ego what you do instead is you perform what's called 'loyalty checks'. For example you devise a test that tells you, if the other person actually wants to be with you. Since both of you don't know how to figure other person's intentions out those loyalty checks won't be seen as an offense _(Ne people, especially heroes and parents, hate being loyalty checked, they don't understand the need for it, they trust you so they expect you to trust them - but, since you don't have ability to gauge intentions like they do - it's very naive for you to simply trust)_. Having Ni child you also won't demand extreme proofs of loyalty as someone with Ni hero would. I think that makes it balanced pretty well. ENFJ would also be too demanding for you in that regard.
> 
> When you're being paranoid it's because you're in Fe-Ne negative loop. ISTP doesn't have ulterior emotional motivations and their Fe heart-pulling manipulation capabilities suck _(though the hidden strength of inferior is that nobody expects it when it suddenly jumps into hero level performance, via aspirational form, but that is sporadic and won't be enough to make you suspect them, it's more like a pleasant surprise)_. They don't act on their emotions, not consciously anyway, demon usually doesn't factor into decision making process. Their usual incompetence in emotional realm makes them cute little critters that need protection in ISFP's eyes and the feeling is mutual. An ISTP is not a threat to you and you're not a threat to them.


I see, so Ni when it’s a child states it’s intentions clearly so I don’t have to worry because an ISTP will be as up front as I am.
On another note, does it stand to reason that if you are someone’s demon that you are also (by math) their angel as one cancels out the other? I have heard it said, “He is my heaven and my hell” and “When things are good they are really good but when they are bad…”.


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