# Anyone want to talk about Dario Nardi's findings?



## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

I just showed someone Nardi’s info on MBTI development in mid-life. Take your third function and make it first, basically. He says you start to look more like that type with your third function first and your dominant more like a third as you develop. This makes sense to me. My ISTP dad was 40 when I was born and he always came across to me like a INFJ, although I know he is an ISTP. My INTJ sister in law is sure she has changed into a Fi-dom. I am seeing these things. I wish the video was better. 
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YjVs8nv2TUk

It would look like; 
ENTP to ESFJ
INTJ to ISFP
INTP to ISFJ
ENTJ to ESFP.


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## Jaycen (Sep 27, 2013)

Llyralen said:


> Right. You saw the post, hopefully about how Ni learns? You need an absence of stimulation so you can let your mind go blank and the answer pop in as you go into flow state. My point was, this is only how Ni learns.


This?



> Okay, my next comment is about learning. There’s a woman talking about learning math in the different types based on Nardi’s work. She said that Ni needs less input so they can let their minds go blank and the answer arrives I didn’t know that. I am always kind of looking at people who complain about noise level like, “What does it have to do with you?” Why are you so willing to change everybody around you, but if this is needed for learning it makes sense...




I saw it, but wasn't sure of the full context. You opened by talking specifically about learning mathematics and math concepts/answers don't just pop into my head. Sorry for misunderstanding.

In that case, no, I don't really need silence to learn. What I need is to be writing as I'm listening. That's pretty much how I skated through all of primary school and my Associates degree. So long as the teacher/professor covered the test topics in class, and as long as I was present and could take notes, then there was never a need to open a book. In fact, I never studied or even looked at my notes as they were mostly indecipherable, but the act of taking those notes as I was listening pretty much seared it into my brain.

And I guess it's funny in terms of performing work, because for 20 years I've worked in the steel industry. Much of that time has been spent in a manufacturing environment with a LOT of background noise (where you're required to wear hearing protection at all times). But in that flow state, everything else fades into the background, I suppose.

But in an office environment, where it's already typically/relatively quiet, then I need it to stay quiet or everything becomes a distraction.




> Except that there is still a question unanswered given the sources that were posted about if Si learners need silence. At this point I don’t know, what was discussed in the sources was that they prefer to learn alone and by repitition which is very important for forging connections for Si.


Can't help you there, though my wife is ESFJ, and her Se needs noise, and activity, especially from other people whether she's working, learning, doing practically anything.



> My other point is that we often assume our way of being and learning must be the same for others, however this is not so, and it would greatly benefit students in my opinion if these things were studied and implemented in the classroom.


Completely agree. Not to dismiss your point about improved classroom learning, but in general people assume everything does everything just like they do. Which is how you can easily know a lot about a person by listening to how they speak about "everyone else" or "people". Everything they say about humanity in general is specifically true for them.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Jaycen said:


> Can't help you there, though my wife is ESFJ, and her Se needs noise, and activity, especially from other people whether she's working, learning, doing practically anything.
> 
> Completely agree. Not to dismiss your point about improved classroom learning, but in general people assume everything does everything just like they do. Which is how you can easily know a lot about a person by listening to how they speak about "everyone else" or "people". Everything they say about humanity in general is specifically true for them.


Thank you for describing your experiences about your different learning environments. Also, 100% agreed. There is so much to be explored about our individual experiences and I think it’s an adventure. 

Your wife’s Se (ESFP?) or Si? Because if aux Si then that counts towards that question of stimulation for Si. The video only addresses learning preference (Se, Si, Ne, or Si). I saw many whose learning preference is aux ask the question of where they would fall in, and I’m sure they fall into the group with their aux, but it’s an interesting further question in case we ever get to where we can study this even more (so important in my opinion) that we look to see if an extrovert with Si needs repetition. Or if a INTP whose learning is extroverted needs something extra since they are an introvert. Just shooting from the hip I’d wonder if aN ESFJ would prefer repetition in a group setting and the INTP might want to be alone but with a bit of distraction. I don’t know. I think it’s important. The lecturer does say at 5he beginning 5hat everyone needs to learn to adapt to every environment (like your post shows you do) but that when kids are struggling to learn that looking at these conditions can really change things around.
And I think we’ve all had experiences where certain teachers with certain teaching styles are able to make or break a particular subject for us.


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## BigApplePi (Dec 1, 2011)

I didn't spend much time on this: https://www.pdx.edu/sysc/sites/www.p...ro-systems.pdf

My impression is to work on it. As an INTP I'd say new, more abstract concepts are needed to relate to the physical structure of the brain. It's the Se thing, static or flow. The brain is enormously complex. If you want to find general Se areas of the brain that do things, go to it. You won't find much that would enlighten me. One brain's activity may reflect on what lights up on the brain but the converse won't do much: What lights up in the brain won't be specific as to what I'm thinking or feeling. Let me think on this ... when I have time.

Said another way, a Te/ Se approach is not the same as a Ti/ Si approach. I want to see more Ti.


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## Sven The Returned (Feb 10, 2018)

Llyralen said:


> *He talks about a decision-making "super-highway" for ENxJs and pointed out what I think was the same pattern in the brain for both ENxJs.* It makes sense that you would have wondered. Agreed, I think it helps to reduce mistypings and I also think it adds more to the description and understanding of each type.


1.) Yes, ENXJs rely heavily on the *Fp1 *​region (_Chief Judg_e: Focus on explaining, making decisions, noting errors, and screening out distracting information :: Ignore or deny bad news in order to enjoy happiness) > 

a.] which amused me to learn because that explains why we have a fairly easy time ignoring unwanted ideas/information/criticism and carrying forth unfazed and with undeterred optimism towards whatever endeavor/goal we've (willfully/stubbornly) set about accomplishing. It turns out that "ignorance" can, indeed, be "blissful." lol 

b.] According to Nardi, we favor the *Fp1* region at a 63%/37% ratio to the *Fp2 *region (_Process Manager_: Focus on process, either step-by-step for tasks, or open-ended creative brainstorming, or both::dwell on bad news, introspecting and experiencing sadness). Nardi noted that "people who under-use this region may be impatient, preferring to focus on decision-making; and they may get side-tracked or *erupt with bursts of hostility* when called to grapple with odd or unpleasant input." (e.g., sliced fruit [featuring honey dew melon] instead of banana nut muffins at the 10:00 am boardroom meeting)>>>



2.) Another amusing insight that explains a lot of our much bandied about "obnoxious behavior"> XNXJs, as a group, tend to be strong in the *T3 *region (_Precise Speaker_: Focus on content of the spoken word, attend to proper grammar, usage, enunciation, and diction), much to the chagrin of everyone else, namely because the result can be shit like this:



Sven The Returned said:


> 1.) What I _actually_ said is that "it *can be*," as in, it is *able to be* "obsessive," but not that it "necessarily" was. Also, no where did I use "all" as an adjective in describing "obsession" so you saw things that weren't there.





Sven The Returned said:


> I believe that if we're going to debate/argue, we must do so in good faith. To me, it's "sinful" and the height of bad faith to misrepresent someone's argument by mis-attributing/mis-ascribing points and stances I never made and discounting the ones I actually did. I take that as an act of hostility--the facts are everything and so there's no room for misinformation. I try to use a fair amount of precision in crafting and articulating what I think and will only be diplomatic so long as I'm debated according to the thoughts I've put forth, in all of the nuance and context I (most likely) provided.
> 
> It may ostensibly seem like I'm hyper sensitive to critique, but *nope*, not at all; I enjoy having my ideas challenged, but again, only according to what I've *actually* put forth. Logical fallacies and intellectual dishonesty don't get passes. Because, again, the facts are everything. Don't fucking misrepresent the facts or else, we can't argue in good faith. IMO, there must be certain parameters we strictly adhere to when debating.


 :smug: lol



Llyralen said:


> I just showed someone Nardi’s info on MBTI development in mid-life. Take your third function and make it first, basically. He says you start to look more like that type with your third function first and your dominant more like a third as you develop. This makes sense to me. My ISTP dad was 40 when I was born and he always came across to me like a INFJ, although I know he is an ISTP. My INTJ sister in law is sure she has changed into a Fi-dom. I am seeing these things. I wish the video was better.
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YjVs8nv2TUk
> 
> It would look like;
> ...


So true for me. With every passing year, I feel my inner Dionysus becoming ever more emergent against the cold, malfunctioning, defunct cyborg--I had always imagined it would be the other way around. It just so happens that my favorite aunt is an ESFP (I remember when she taught Jazzercize for Tots ffs) and I was just over her house recently, made the world shattering mistake of going into her basement to retrieve a box full of sweet childhood memories and stumbled upon what appeared to be the fucking "Bat-Cave" or some type of Central Command Center with digital "eyes" surrounding every inch of her property; it was a paranoid NTJ's wet-dream.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

@Sven The Returned. LOL! See, and what will I become? A ESTJ! And the only ones I know irl do erupt with bursts of hostility— Judge Judy, watch out! (I hope this is not my future!) But it’s almost like we become BOTH is what I seem to observe? At least my dad is like both ISTP and INFJ. I do see a lot of older ENFPs running programs, sometimes volunteer programs. I know one here who manage the advisory groups that make sure county mental health runs well and the advisory for fair housing, that kind of thing. Bat cave plus teaching jazzersize for tots on the side for you. =) Awesome.


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## Sven The Returned (Feb 10, 2018)

Llyralen said:


> @*Sven The Returned*. LOL! See, and what will I become? A ESTJ! And the only ones I know irl do erupt with bursts of hostility— Judge Judy, watch out! (I hope this is not my future!) But it’s almost like we become BOTH is what I seem to observe? At least my dad is like both ISTP and INFJ. I do see a lot of older ENFPs running programs, sometimes volunteer programs. I know one here who manage the advisory groups that make sure county mental health runs well and the advisory for fair housing, that kind of thing. Bat cave plus *teaching jazzersize for tots on the side for you*. =) Awesome.


lol *shiver*

I know two ENFPs in the +55 category, one of them being a college professor/mentor I've known for over a decade; to give some context, for 25 years, my mentor used to reside on a small farm deep in the Swedish wilderness, where his nearest neighbors were these evidently bored, hyper-nosy, voyeuristic cows (bulls and calves) that used to congregate outside his doorstep whenever he received company (which was often) and creepily stare down the guests as they entered. On the farm, he lived in what externally appeared to be a quaint little Hobbit cottage but internally looked like what one would imagine an eclectic, stylish, reclusive Woodland Witch meets "the old woman who lived in shoe" would live like. Suffice to say, his (arguably overactive) Ne+eternal hard-on for Tolkien was...fantastically incredible. 

A few of his former students and I visited him at his new seaside residence this past summer and, much to our astonishment, his strengthened inferior Si had taken a big bite out of that dominant Ne whimsy; no one could ever argue that the man didn't have tremendous imagination and brilliantly iconoclastic tastes, but his new place possesses a refined, more distinguished and conservative sensibility that ties all that whimsy into a more...readily digestible package lol...that still shows off his unique perspective, but brings a heightened Si composure that's far more impactful, in the subtleties and attention to detail, IMO. 

Personality wise, it's hilarious at the amount of times he clutches his imaginary pearls at what he _now_ considers to be "outrageous," gauche behavior, considering the type of *deeply* progressive shenanigans and tom-foolery that used to go on in that cottage...which, now serves as a rest home (run and funded by him) for widowed, elderly LGBT+ folks. So, to your point, that Ne+Fi is still rather potent. lol


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## oogerbooger (Oct 21, 2018)

Dario Just seems to be trying too hard to prove himself an INTJ I think.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Sven The Returned said:


> lol *shiver*
> 
> I know two ENFPs in the +55 category, one of them being a college professor/mentor I've known for over a decade; to give some context, for 25 years, my mentor used to reside on a small farm deep in the Swedish wilderness, where his nearest neighbors were these evidently bored, hyper-nosy, voyeuristic cows (bulls and calves) that used to congregate outside his doorstep whenever he received company (which was often) and creepily stare down the guests as they entered. On the farm, he lived in what externally appeared to be a quaint little Hobbit cottage but internally looked like what one would imagine an eclectic, stylish, reclusive Woodland Witch meets "the old woman who lived in shoe" would live like. Suffice to say, his (arguably overactive) Ne+eternal hard-on for Tolkien was...fantastically incredible.
> 
> ...


LOL! At the end of your middle paragraph I was getting kind of uppity. I was like, "He did NOT give up that darling Hobbit-house! Good thing you told me he is putting the house to good use and running it! Although I still wonder how the cows fared in the shuffle. I moved out by the ocean myself 3 years ago. I'm 42. =) 

By the way, my ENTJ brother-in-law (age 38, I think) is climbing corporate ladders like you all do right now, but he WANTS to start a kid's judo studio when he gets older. It's a bit of the jazzersize thing.... =)


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## Sven The Returned (Feb 10, 2018)

Llyralen said:


> LOL! At the end of your middle paragraph I was getting kind of uppity. I was like, "He did NOT give up that darling Hobbit-house! Good thing you told me he is putting the house to good use and running it! Although I still wonder how the cows fared in the shuffle. I moved out by the ocean myself 3 years ago. I'm 42. =)
> 
> By the way, my ENTJ brother-in-law (age 38, I think) is climbing corporate ladders like you all do right now, but he WANTS to start a kid's judo studio when he gets older. It's a bit of the jazzersize thing.... =)


Lol

1.) He couldn't part with that house; it's tied to his soul--he just felt like it was time for it to be re-purposed. And it does a lot of good for the people who stay there. One can't help but feel...better. 

2.) The cows are still there (only providing dairy, btw), still being cared for, still thriving, still staring. 

3.) I'll always live beside a body of water; nothing grants me peace, calm, inspiration and motivation like water in motion. 

4.) Yeah, I'm still in the ambitious "climbing" phase but I've been fortunate enough to volunteer off and on with the Special Olympics (few are capable of tugging on my steely heart strings like those fighters can) and I know for a fact that I will one day (Se+Fi) work more intimately/interactively with people with intellectual disabilities. The energy, drive, determination, optimistic outlook, integrity, and purity of heart of those struggling with/overcoming obstacles that I take for granted everyday is just...powerful.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Sven The Returned said:


> Lol
> 
> 1.) He couldn't part with that house; it's tied to his soul--he just felt like it was time for it to be re-purposed. And it does a lot of good for the people who stay there. One can't help but feel...better.
> 
> ...


I love it! And with ENTJs it's almost just a matter of when, imo. =). While I was going to college, I worked as a life-skills instructor with mentally challenged people. It was very rewarding and memorable. Hel go Lykke med det! (Jeg taler Dansk men aldrig har mulighed at snakkes. Jeg er Amerikaner saa det er godt at oeve sproget.). 

Dairy cows are always more fun. =). Well, how would I know. I just like the idea of pets that support their own upkeep and don't have to be killed. 

Oh, and water... yes! There is just something so calming and grounding about it. Lakes, rivers, and ocean. The sound and sight, you're right, it's soothing like nothing else. I wonder what listening to water looks like on a EEG. Also music. I'm hoping to learn more about music in the brain. 
Do you happen to have Dario Nardi's book? Is it worth buying?


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

oogerbooger said:


> Dario Just seems to be trying too hard to prove himself an INTJ I think.


Most of us have the dream to prove we are INTJs at some point in our lives. =). 
You don't think he is? lol


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

Why would anybody become a miserable human being intj is beyond my comprehension. Even worse because intj's misery do not love company.

_Sent sans PC_


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

contradictionary said:


> Why would anybody become a miserable human being intj is beyond my comprehension. Even worse because intj's misery do not love company.
> 
> _Sent sans PC_


Speak for your own sad sack self. 

My mom's an INTJ and she's not a miserable human being. And there's plenty of well established, mentally healthy and happy INTJ's on here as well. No clue what your point of reference for this conclusion is.


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## Catandroid (Jul 9, 2018)

Llyralen said:


> I just showed someone Nardi’s info on MBTI development in mid-life. Take your third function and make it first, basically. He says you start to look more like that type with your third function first and your dominant more like a third as you develop. This makes sense to me. My ISTP dad was 40 when I was born and he always came across to me like a INFJ, although I know he is an ISTP. My INTJ sister in law is sure she has changed into a Fi-dom. I am seeing these things. I wish the video was better.
> https://youtu.be/YjVs8nv2TUk
> 
> It would look like;
> ...


Theory: we tend to develop our third inferior function into dominant function.

If this theory is true then ESTJs (TeSiNeFi) would tend to turn into ENFPs (NeFiTeSi) when grown up and ENFPs into ESTJs. 

Wow, that's surprising!

Providing this theory ok it would add validity to the cognitive functions. 

This is probably why he did say in the first video that there was some proof to the cognitive functions.

It's also surprising to me how much difference there is between INFP and INTP scans while INFJ/INTJ and ENFJ/ENTJ are not that different.


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## reptilian (Aug 5, 2014)

I was a big fan of his (have his books), but not anymore. I have little trust in correlating MBTI to EEG findings. I think it could be possible with a more precise system of measuring a human being. Especially since we are getting closer to understanding the human genome. Measuring the brain through EEG still has role to play, but going to far with it will not get you closer to the truth.

He takes his theoretical stuff from linda barens if I remember correctly. He picked a good niche for his business that probably helps a lot of people understand themselves, but also makes them think they know something important and true, even though it is not, this can harm a person in the long run.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Catandroid said:


> Theory: we tend to develop our third and fourth inferior functions into dominant functions.
> 
> If this theory is true then ESTJs (TeSiNeFi) would tend to turn into ENFPs (NeFiTeSi) when grown up and ENFPs into ESTJs.
> 
> ...


Right! So interesting! But I am cringing at the idea of "turning into" any ESTJ, so I'm going to say "Please please please may I still stay a ENFP and just get my Te and Si going more but keep all of my morals and ability with Ne?" And I think it's true. I think you still see all those Ne connections and keep my Fi but it's just that your brain says "Alright, enough work here... moving on to develop 3rd and 4th functions". 

I do see older ENFPs in charge of many things. I typed these out a bit ago to the ENFPs when I told them about this. I basically said, "Expect to have ESTJ power to accomplish ENFP things". So I know an older ENFP who is the head of advisory for county housing and behavioral health, he also runs a 300 member family-oriented performing drum circle. (My town is only 10,000 people, so it's a big deal) and I know another who has been the president of the state diabetes educators off and on for years. I spoke to another ENFP who used to run a state penitentiary and I myself managed programs earlier in life and want to get back to my roots-- my music, art, and literature. So whatever functions got ignored too, whatever your brain wants to work on basically that it didn't get too before.... I'm 42 now though, there is plenty to do. But you don't lose your type from from before. I'm always going to be a ENFP--- HOPEFULLY! Right? Right?


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

reptilian said:


> I was a big fan of his (have his books), but not anymore. I have little trust in correlating MBTI to EEG findings. I think it could be possible with a more precise system of measuring a human being. Especially since we are getting closer to understanding the human genome. Measuring the brain through EEG still has role to play, but going to far with it will not get you closer to the truth.
> 
> He takes his theoretical stuff from linda barens if I remember correctly. He picked a good niche for his business that probably helps a lot of people understand themselves, but also makes them think they know something important and true, even though it is not, this can harm a person in the long run.


Hmm, expand your ideas more please? Also, do you think genome will replace MBTI? But often our genes are turned off and on by outside input. There are environmental factors and I believe the job you choose--- after all jobs are about 1/3 of our time--- has much to do with how your brain develops. Learning languages, etc. What do you think? Also how would there be harm?


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## Catandroid (Jul 9, 2018)

Llyralen said:


> Right! So interesting! But I am cringing at the idea of "turning into" any ESTJ, so I'm going to say "Please please please may I still stay a ENFP and just get my Te and Si going more but keep all of my morals and ability with Ne?" And I think it's true. I think you still see all those Ne connections and keep my Fi but it's just that your brain says "Alright, enough work here... moving on to develop 3rd and 4th functions".
> 
> I do see older ENFPs in charge of many things. I typed these out a bit ago to the ENFPs when I told them about this. I basically said, "Expect to have ESTJ power to accomplish ENFP things". So I know an older ENFP who is the head of advisory for county housing and behavioral health, he also runs a 300 member family-oriented performing drum circle. (My town is only 10,000 people, so it's a big deal) and I know another who has been the president of the state diabetes educators off and on for years. I spoke to another ENFP who used to run a state penitentiary and I myself managed programs earlier in life and want to get back to my roots-- my music, art, and literature. So whatever functions got ignored too, whatever your brain wants to work on basically that it didn't get too before.... I'm 42 now though, there is plenty to do. But you don't lose your type from from before. I'm always going to be a ENFP--- HOPEFULLY! Right? Right?


A lot of people say that Steve Jobs was an ENFP but I have been resisting this idea.

At 30 years old he threw a lavishly formal but playful -black tie and tennis shoe- party where Bill Gates attended.

The invitation read: “There’s an old Hindu saying that goes, ‘In the first 30 years of your life, you make your habits. For the last 30 years of your life, your habits make you.’

Maybe he _began _to change at 30.

You may have gone past the threshold by now but it’s never too late for a new haircut.


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

Llyralen said:


> Hmm, expand your ideas more please? Also, do you think genome will replace MBTI? But often our genes are turned off and on by outside input. There are environmental factors and I believe the job you choose--- after all jobs are about 1/3 of our time--- has much to do with how your brain develops. Learning languages, etc. What do you think? Also how would there be harm?


Preference >> practice >> result >> feedback >> preference (repeat infinitely)

Human is learning by trials and errors since being baby, some says from fetus. And learning simply never stops.

Well sadly for some it does stop. That's when you heard the term of walking deads. They are FINAL, TERMINAL, no longer processing, just counting sheeps to fill the 6 feet hole.



_Sent sans PC_


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