# What Words Mean to Fs: Exposing the myth that Fs are overly sensitive



## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

Yea I'm actually starting to learn about T's, they probably won't piss me off in the future. Its the F posing as T that would get me I suppose.

One has really got to learn and figure out if someone is insulting them, lol.

"Hey, are you talkin shit? Because I'm not" Would work just fine I think.


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## Istbkleta (Apr 30, 2011)

lirulin said:


> but probably just ignored it since if someone isn't going to make their post worthwhile, I'm not wasting my time on it.


Me2.

I got into it cause the OP said those things and since I am testing my Fi I got offended.

I need help here with a theory.

When you are presented with criticism or any other outside information, that is unpleasant to you personally, but you believe it might be true and useful, how do you go about analyzing it instead of freaking out and getting offended. How do you handle this.

A horrible theory is starting to form in my mind regarding all this Ti thing. You are Te so I'd really like to hear your opinion.

OP, sry for hijacking this thread with stupid banter. I got carried away and that was inappropriate. I don't know how to make it sound sincere to you, but inside of me it sounds sincere. A bunch of ENTPs hijacked my thread and I saw how bad that is from the other side. Sorry. Keep up the good work, that's some pretty neat theory you got there. Enriching us all


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## ukinfj (Apr 15, 2011)

I'd agree that Fs (or Fe at least) are not overly sensitive. I am far less sensitive than my T boyfriend in many ways, but it depends what people are saying. 

I agree with the accept or reject process, but I would say I work completely without words. I tend to take no notice at all to what the person is saying/doing/wearing when I judge them. I notice their intentions and character (some of which will come through body language I imagine) and go with that. People say stupid things, so what words they use doesn't really matter to me. For this reason, I'm going to have to say that words and "Fe" don't seem to fit to me. It's not about the words, it's about the other person's intentions. These are read through intuition which is a very unconscious process I wouldn't be able to describe.

If words are thrown at me from someone I love or respect then I will take notice. And yes, in this way, I can be more sensitive than Ts. But I tend to be pretty cool headed around people I feel indifferent to (60 per cent of the population) and people I completely dislike (30 per cent of the population). "Off a duck's back" comes to mind in these situations and I'll generally forget what they said pretty quickly, though I might be a bit annoyed at their tenacity if they have been rude. But like I say, if it's someone I love or respect, then it hurts. 

Oh also, the rejection thing, I never roll my eyes or show anything through body language because I don't need the other person to know I don't like them. It doesn't really make any difference whether they know or not, I'm still not going to waste my time on them. Instead, I tend to be very polite and friendly and helpful, because that's how I feel comfortable, but I won't approach them for conversation, invite them to anything, willingly interact with them in any way. The only time we'd converse is if we happened to be in a room together and it was polite.

So, if you're rejected, you don't get any vibes from me, generally, well not unless you have a strong Fe function where you'd be able to tell. You know I don't like you because I don't try to get to know you and I don't attempt to interact with you.


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## ukinfj (Apr 15, 2011)

Istbkleta said:


> When you are presented with criticism or any other outside information, that is unpleasant to you personally, but you believe it might be true and useful, how do you go about analyzing it instead of freaking out and getting offended. How do you handle this.


Don't think this was aimed at me but I use Fe and Ti. If it's true, I don't get upset in front of the person. Well, I don't really get upset in front of the other person ever, I don't act emotionally in front of others or show negative feelings. But yeah, if I think it might true, I go away and consider the possibility. I'm not very self aware so I might ask for other people's help on deciding the matter. My T boyfriend is good for this because he's honest. If I have upset the person that criticised me, then obviously I apologise and try to make it up.

That's if it's an attack on my character. If it's my work, I don't get sensitive at all. I am untouchable when it comes to my work because I'm a perfectionist. You literally can't offend me because the more criticism I get the better. If I get criticised about my work and I agree, I change it and say thank you. No emotions there at all, it's an impersonal issue so I don't feel anything about it.


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## Istbkleta (Apr 30, 2011)

@ukinfj

Thank you. Very interesting. 

If you don't mind me asking (and it is none of my business but I need it for my conclusions) - how certain are you of your type? In those 2 posts you described an ENTP (a more mature one) reactions and mental processes. The difference was the part where you don't allow people to see that you don't like them. I am doing that though more and more often. 

I have realized the people I don't really like do not deserve my honesty and that is reserved to my friends.

Everything else was pretty much ENTP. That was strange, we share only 2 functions (if I am not mistaken - Ti and Fe)


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## ukinfj (Apr 15, 2011)

Istbkleta said:


> @ukinfj
> 
> Thank you. Very interesting.
> 
> ...


Hm, never considered ENTP. I consider myself strongly introverted and choose to spend a lot of time on my own, hate parties, don't like meeting new people etc. So extroversion hadn't really occurred to me. I did think I was T for a while, though, except that I prioritise people above all else - ha, I don't know.


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## ukinfj (Apr 15, 2011)

@Istbkleta Hm. Just read the ENTP profile and it definitely fits me, almost as much as the INFJ profile fits me. I don't believe in rank, though. I have a strong dislike of any concept of rank and choose to stay out of it (which means I am invariable at the bottom of every social hierarchy, but it also means I don't really care that much so long as I don't get constantly treated like shit, which is a danger). I'm definitely extremely picky with other people but I'm not bothered about unintelligence. I'm bothered about moral integrity and not hurting others. I do want to bring people down and put them in their place, but this is when they are being unfair to others or making life difficult for others. It doesn't really matter to me if it's me they're mocking or being cruel to, because I only respect the opinions of people I like. I don't want someone I dislike to like me, particularly, because it may lead to awkward situations in which I would need to try and get away from them. Generally the feeling is mutual, though. 

I debate for sport, mind you, so long as the debate is well-mannered and people are open-minded and let each other speak. I very much dislike interruptions or arguments or people trying to irritate or annoy each other for fun. So debate but not "argument for sport", I guess.

Yeah, I don't know :tongue:


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## Istbkleta (Apr 30, 2011)

ukinfj said:


> @Istbkleta Hm. Just read the ENTP profile and it definitely fits me, almost as much as the INFJ profile fits me. I don't believe in rank, though. I have a strong dislike of any concept of rank and choose to stay out of it (which means I am invariable at the bottom of every social hierarchy, but it also means I don't really care that much so long as I don't get constantly treated like shit, which is a danger). I'm definitely extremely picky with other people but I'm not bothered about unintelligence. I'm bothered about moral integrity and not hurting others. I do want to bring people down and put them in their place, but this is when they are being unfair to others or making life difficult for others. It doesn't really matter to me if it's me they're mocking or being cruel to, because I only respect the opinions of people I like. I don't want someone I dislike to like me, particularly, because it may lead to awkward situations in which I would need to try and get away from them. Generally the feeling is mutual, though.
> 
> I debate for sport, mind you, so long as the debate is well-mannered and people are open-minded and let each other speak. I very much dislike interruptions or arguments or people trying to irritate or annoy each other for fun. So debate but not "argument for sport", I guess.
> 
> Yeah, I don't know :tongue:


I am sorry to have caused you to doubt your type. My intention was not to make it harder for you, but to reject a hypothesis.

Unfortunately from your second post I'd say I would not exclude ENTP as a possibility. I don't know what that rank is, but your description in this regard fits me. Perhaps it might make more sense if thinking about being individualistic thinker with a need to go against the system and one-up people.

I admit I am hardly the person to question typing due to my very limited knowledge. It might be interesting from a purely exploratory point of view to see into this peculiarity.
Perhaps somebody might help you find the differences between Ni and Ne.

And also, do not take me in my current state as a typical ENTP. i am practicing what MBTI calls Fi and Fe.


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## ukinfj (Apr 15, 2011)

Istbkleta said:


> I am sorry to have caused you to doubt your type. My intention was not to make it harder for you, but to reject a hypothesis.
> 
> Unfortunately from your second post I'd say I would not exclude ENTP as a possibility. I don't know what that rank is, but your description in this regard fits me. Perhaps it might make more sense if thinking about being individualistic thinker with a need to go against the system and one-up people.
> 
> ...


Don't worry! I don't mind what type I am! It's just a bit of fun! :tongue: As for Ni/Ne, I use Ni. Or I assume I do because I have added to a thread explaining how Ni works! If I don't use Ni after all then I've just led a lot of people astray :laughing:

I will add, though, that I don't think anything I've written actually goes against INFJism. INFJs are quick to accept and reject and can be quite a harsh personality type when it comes to judgement. I think I'm right in saying we are the least warm and fluffy Fs :tongue: I suppose the difference is that INFJs judge almost entirely on the morality of the person they meet and based only on their attitude to others (i.e. whether they would hurt or use others), while I've always imagined other types will look at different aspects such as intelligence or whatever, but I don't know that for sure. 

Cognitive function tests normally show high Ni in me and relatively high introversion. Are you saying that ENTPs don't necessarily seek the company of others or are happy spending a lot of time alone? Like an introvert? That's interesting, perhaps I have oversimplified what it means to be an extrovert :tongue:

I have no idea whether this is correct or not but do you think seeing work as impersonal as an Fe thing? Fi tends to take opinions seriously because Fi users often connect their beliefs and ideas to their identity. I judge my character entirely on how well I treat others and I don't have a problem being wrong so long as it's not about morality. I see my ideas and opinions as being an interest rather than having anything to do with me or my identity, so they're changeable just so long as I agree with another point of view. This is why I don't mind people criticising my work - they're not criticising *me*, they're just criticising my work and if they do that then I can improve my work, which is important to me as a perfectionist 

EDIT: Just checked out the ENTP forum. The profile description seemed to fit when I looked it up but the "you know you're an ENTP when..." thread. Oh dear, I think I'd find you guys extremely stressful! I don't like competition, it puts me on edge. From the looks of it, I've met a few ENTPs in my life, though  At least it's good-natured competition with you guys.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Istbkleta said:


> Me2.
> 
> I got into it cause the OP said those things and since I am testing my Fi I got offended.


Is that Fi? I don't see what makes it so.



Istbkleta said:


> I need help here with a theory.
> 
> When you are presented with criticism or any other outside information, that is unpleasant to you personally, but you believe it might be true and useful, how do you go about analyzing it instead of freaking out and getting offended. How do you handle this.
> 
> A horrible theory is starting to form in my mind regarding all this Ti thing. You are Te so I'd really like to hear your opinion.


Well, it rather depends on what is being criticized.
If it's my ideas, some actions &c - they are not personal. I'll usually try to take it into account and just move on. It mostly doesn't occur to me that it should be unpleasant - if I feel bad it is more apologetic bad rather than offended bad. Like, 'oh shit I fucked up,' not 'oh shit you pointed it out you bastard!' Most things fit in this category. From what I have been told, Ti-users find certain ideas rather more personal in a way Te doesn't. Like they are a part of yourself instead of the outside world? I don't know if what I do for that would work for you since it basically amounts to using Te.

If it_ is _about me personally, then I admit it pisses me off - that's more Fi issues I guess. Unlike what the OP describes for Fs, I don't assume anything is about me unless it is verbatim, literally. I get rather irritated when others suddenly assume they are the topic of conversation so I try not to do it. But if it does get to that - often it will be Fe trying to tell me what I feel, who I am or what I should be - then I admit I get irritated - more that they presume to know than that this was criticism - much of that is their being wrong and sometimes pushy about it. External information is rarely that useful for things this personal. If someone is correct...I don't know, it doesn't mean a lot. Either it's something I chose to do/be, in which case I have reasons, or it is something I am working on. I'll mostly try to explain what is behind it or something.

Its really hard to answer, since normal criticism doesn't usually make me offended - depressed, frustrated with myself, not like I always enjoy it, sure - but it isn't really about the other person. When it is about them it is more when others set themselves up as a judge over others emotions or morals since I find that arrogant and presumptuous. I wonder if Ti reacts similarly to those trying to judge ideas - or certain ideas? So yeah, it's less the criticism itself being bad but the fact that they think they are entitled to judge or that they have enough information to do so, when they clearly don't, that would offend me, if anything - and that, to me, is rather separate from the criticism. So I could analyse the criticism on its own but still be pissed at the person for what looks like arrogance. Solutions for that - I'm starting to see that this assumption, however problematic, doesn't always have a nasty, arrogant basis - though it certainly does sometimes. My patience often won't hold though if they proceed to argue with me on what I feel or should feel or what I really am, but it can work for the initial assumption crap. Tell me what you see, how I appear - anything that you have the information for, whatever. If it's internal - you don't have the information and I do, you gotta back off sooner or later or it will start to become less about the topic of conversation and more about what you are doing, kinda thing.


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## Istbkleta (Apr 30, 2011)

very bored said:


> @Loyalgirl
> 
> I just PM'd you the links. And how's your progress on explaining Ts?


Can you post them?


@Loyalgirl

How is the NT part coming? 
Just asking cause curious. The F article was very cool. Whether people read it is up to them 





Loyalgirl said:


> And getting hurt from a verbal attack is definitely not overly sensitive. Some Ts can be quite dense and can listen to insults for hours (or join in and have a 2 hour scream war) without being affected. It seems *very unhealthy and I find it weird*


I think you are onto something here.
I wonder (and am not sure!, this is a question to ponder) if at least Ti users do not actively "suspend" their feelings in order to engage Ti. But those feelings do not disappear, they just lack the Fi to consciously know them. Thus negative emotions pile up undealt with until the user (xNTP) just crumbles down emotionally. After a cleansing period of turmoil they would come to terms with their emotions and keep going but at the cost of unproductive time spent reconstructing their internal emotional world from the ashes. Without enough Fi (whatever that is) their emotions are not taken into consideration and taken care of. Just wondering about this.

I am wondering how I can verify this ...

@possiBri
You think that's Fe and that having an INFJ mother helped you strengthen it more than other ENTPs your age?


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## possiBri (Jan 4, 2011)

Loyalgirl said:


> ok well I'm working on it. I'm here to learn just like everyone else..
> btw, I don't see how you can use sensing someones intent. you may guess entirely wrong with intent. I did think the person sounded unintelligent and needed to work on that, *but being an F means you dont always get to say everything you'd like to for feat of hurting the person. it can actually befrustrating at times.* but thought I'd be ok voicing my opinions because of the nature of this thread ams how I could use my post to point out something.however ended up upsetting a T haha!! oh well, I try :/


I have this issue too, but WHY I don't want to hurt their feelings is probably where we differ. I don't want to rock the boat/cause problems (except if it's a close friend, then it will partly be because I want to be kind and take their feelings more into consideration), whereas you're focused more on the personal aspect of it. But I definitely find myself frustrated because I want to say something and feel it wouldn't be beneficial to the situation. Perhaps having an INFJ mother helped strengthen that in me, but it's definitely not an exclusively F quality =]


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## possiBri (Jan 4, 2011)

Istbkleta said:


> @possiBri
> You think that's Fe and that having an INFJ mother helped you strengthen it more than other ENTPs your age?


Well I'm kinda just assuming it's Fe... could be my Ti+Fe masquerading as Fi. What I think is really interesting is that I've always had this drive to help -- but only with really specific stuff (I have specific causes/people/subjects that I like to help/inform other people with/about, if that makes sense -- I'm very picky with my assistance, I guess). From a very young age I've been pretty empathetic too; I would have parents of friends comment to me about how I interacted with the rest of the kids and stuff. For a long time I thought I was an ENFP, too... how much my mom influenced me? Probably not a whole bunch, but I'm sure she helped bring it out in me. My whole immediate family (mom, dad, bro) are all feelers, and I was raised in a very tolerant, loving household -- also very "new age" -- so it's probably a combination of all of that.


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## William I am (May 20, 2011)

@Loyalgirl: Thank you SO MUCH!!! 

"A T being strictly practical can be seen as discouragement to an F. The best example of this is a thorough analysis of why an Fs dreams can't work. This means a T may actually disable an F without meaning to by being overly practical. "

This ^^ The key to my problems relating to F's. I'm not all that T dominant, but I'm mostly T. 

I think the big deal is that I can see ideas as completely separate from people, even ideas that belong to people I know personally. And when I say something about the idea, if comes out as something about the person, not the idea.

I'd be happy to help write part 2.


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## Eylrid (Jun 25, 2009)

Loyalgirl said:


> We don't take all words personally, just the ones that are in social contexts and are meant to be taken personally (in our language). And getting hurt from a verbal attack is definitely not overly sensitive. Some Ts can be quite dense and can listen to insults for hours (or join in and have a 2 hour scream war) without being affected. It seems very unhealthy and I find it weird


Wait, are you saying it's unhealthy to be unruffled by being insulted?


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Eylrid said:


> Wait, are you saying it's unhealthy to be unruffled by being insulted?


Yeah, that confused me too.


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## Istbkleta (Apr 30, 2011)

Eylrid said:


> Wait, are you saying it's unhealthy to be unruffled by being insulted?


I am saying it and I am an ENTP.

What's your problem with that?

My idea is that emotions need to be taken into consideration when making decisions. The decisions are NOT based on emotions, but still need to take care of them. Otherwise they pile up and explode in your face.

I am NOT saying decisions should be taken based on emotions only. 

I think most NTs are abusing our ability to suspend emotions when thinking.


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## Eylrid (Jun 25, 2009)

Istbkleta said:


> I am saying it and I am an ENTP.
> 
> What's your problem with that?
> 
> ...


Well, yea, emotions shouldn't be neglected. But what's wrong with someone not even being affected by it emotionally?


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## possiBri (Jan 4, 2011)

Eylrid said:


> Well, yea, emotions shouldn't be neglected. But what's wrong with someone not even being affected by it emotionally?


Yes, I agree. People that get offended by certain insults believe, to some degree either consciously or subconsciously, that the insult is accurate. If you don't think the person is right, you won't (usually) be offended. When someone attacks my intelligence and I strike back or get mad, it's because part of me feels stupid and inferior and I'm scared that I'm really not intelligent. If I was more confident about that it wouldn't bother me when someone tries to insult me in that way.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

possiBri said:


> Yes, I agree. People that get offended by certain insults believe, to some degree either consciously or subconsciously, that the insult is accurate. If you don't think the person is right, you won't (usually) be offended. When someone attacks my intelligence and I strike back or get mad, it's because part of me feels stupid and inferior and I'm scared that I'm really not intelligent. If I was more confident about that it wouldn't bother me when someone tries to insult me in that way.


I tend to get more pissed if they are _in_naccurate, myself.
Arg stop talking crap arg you don't know what you are talking about arg irritation...must...correct...arg....twitch....

I find a lot of times too, it is a matter of what you consider an insult. If a friend and I are teasing or trash-talking each other and it's all a big joke, there is no reason to be offended. I imagine an outsider might see that, not get our humour, and be convinced we are suppressing inner rage, but they would be deeply wrong. It may be something that is 'meant to be taken personally in F language' but if neither of us is speaking F language, meh.

For instance, I recently assured a friend that I wouldn't make her maid of honour at my wedding, should I ever have one, because that would mean she would have to do work and she would hate that. I said I would make it easy for her so all she would have to do was show up. She was delighted. Another friend was offended on her behalf, mistaking this for an insult. Not all 'insults' really are insults.

Or sometimes my bf will apologise for our argument and I have no idea we had an argument. Since I absent-mindedly interpret things the way Ts often mean them, ie not personal, there are a lot of insults that don't bug me because I don't immediately interpret them as personal. That may be a little oblivious, but not unhealthy. So he gets away with the occasional snide remark when he is stressed, without me noticing or caring - I don't consider that a bad thing. More breathing room, less real conflict...


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## Nonconsensus (May 19, 2011)

lirulin said:


> Someone who jokes along is demonstrating that they do _understand _me, they have the rare, genuine, understanding of my intentions, which is a better connection than any.


What Jokes Mean to Ts: Exposing the myth that Ts are out to search and destroy


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## Loyalgirl (Jan 10, 2011)

Nonconsensus said:


> What Jokes Mean to Ts: Exposing the myth that Ts are out to search and destroy


Cool, when are you posting it?!

I'm still gathering data for my next article btw.


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## Aelthwyn (Oct 27, 2010)

I definately agree that Ts and Fs have a different language which uses mostly the same words. I've found that I can sort of switch my mind over into a different gear when dealing with my T friends, most of the time, but I can never completely override my instinctual understanding of certain things. Sometimes even when I know full well that something wasn't meant personally, when I consider the conversation, situation, and person logically and know what their negative tone was really about and what they really meant, and all that, even then I can't just stop feeling hurt. It helps, but it doesn't make the initial feeling that was triggered disappear. 

Also, I find that most of the meaning I pick up on comes from the tone of voice - something which many people seem to not be aware of or not interpret in the same way. To me tones have very obvious meanings, so it is quite disconcerting when someone tells me they didn't mean it that way at all......it just seemed so obvious. It's wierd, and hard to believe, but I try to give them the benefit of the doubt and trust their further explainations of what they were meaning to communicate. Still it feels me like people ought to make more effort to pay attention to the meanings of tones - it's no different than looking up a definition of a word if you ask me (granted there is no tone dictionary yet since it has to be heard), but anyways people shouldn't just write off tones as irrelevant. 

When people offer criticism I find that it really irks me when they say something in a definite manner without adding something like "in my oppinion..." I tend to have a knee-jerk reaction of rebellion towards people who tell me how they think something should be as if their word is law. Suggestions based on personal tastes are interesting and usefull to me, they share something about you while respecting me enough to make my own final evaluation of myself/my work. For example, telling me I'm inconsiderate is rude and unhelpfull because it just alienates me, telling me you felt like I didn't care about you when I did something allows me to empathize with you and re-evaluate myself, which means I can genuinely reform and it also allows for me to explain my perspective and perhaps help you understand that I wasn't intending to be inconsiderate.


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## Eylrid (Jun 25, 2009)

Aelthwyn said:


> I definately agree that Ts and Fs have a different language which uses mostly the same words. I've found that I can sort of switch my mind over into a different gear when dealing with my T friends, most of the time, but I can never completely override my instinctual understanding of certain things. *Sometimes even when I know full well that something wasn't meant personally, when I consider the conversation, situation, and person logically and know what their negative tone was really about and what they really meant, and all that, even then I can't just stop feeling hurt. It helps, but it doesn't make the initial feeling that was triggered disappear. *
> 
> Also, I find that most of the meaning I pick up on comes from the tone of voice - something which many people seem to not be aware of or not interpret in the same way. To me tones have very obvious meanings, so it is quite disconcerting when someone tells me they didn't mean it that way at all......it just seemed so obvious. It's wierd, and hard to believe, but I try to give them the benefit of the doubt and trust their further explainations of what they were meaning to communicate. Still it feels me like people ought to make more effort to pay attention to the meanings of tones - it's no different than looking up a definition of a word if you ask me (granted there is no tone dictionary yet since it has to be heard), but anyways people shouldn't just write off tones as irrelevant.
> 
> When people offer criticism I find that it really irks me when they say something in a definite manner without adding something like "in my oppinion..." I tend to have a knee-jerk reaction of rebellion towards people who tell me how they think something should be as if their word is law. Suggestions based on personal tastes are interesting and usefull to me, they share something about you while respecting me enough to make my own final evaluation of myself/my work. For example, telling me I'm inconsiderate is rude and unhelpfull because it just alienates me, telling me you felt like I didn't care about you when I did something allows me to empathize with you and re-evaluate myself, which means I can genuinely reform and it also allows for me to explain my perspective and perhaps help you understand that I wasn't intending to be inconsiderate.


That's something that I've experienced, actually. I've learned from it that, just like physical pain, emotional pain can come whether or not you want it or think it should be there.

There are some lessons to be learned from it:
Sometimes people hurt you on accident. It's okay to feel the pain, but don't blame people for accidents.

Sometimes you accidentally hurt others. The right thing to do is to acknowledge that you hurt them and apologize.

_Sometimes_ you have to hurt people to help them. (examples: the stinging that happens when you clean out a wound, telling someone the painful truth about a major problem in their life so it can be fixed, etc.) The fact that it's for their own good doesn't make it hurt any less.

You should be careful to hurt others as little as possible.


These all apply equally well to emotional pain and physical pain, and they apply equally well to Ts and Fs.


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## Johnathan (Jul 2, 2011)

I cannot honestly say that I read every word of every post in this thread (definitely a TLDR situation) but I read all of the first 5 pages or so and skimmed most of the rest. All I can say is that all of you Fs contributing here give me hope for the rest of the world.

In my experience, I have always been confronted with Fs that have no interest in meeting in the middle at all. From my point of view, I've probably offended them from the minute I've said hello and there just doesn't seem to be anything I can do about it. If I don't understand the problem, I certainly can't do anything to rectify it, right?

I'm glad to see that there are, in fact, Fs out there that are even trying to understand Ts. and beyond! Trying to cooperatively communicate with Ts?!? Outstanding. Just damn outstanding, people. I applaud your effort and love each and everyone one of you for trying so hard.

I've never met any of you IRL...but I wish I had. *sigh*


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## Loyalgirl (Jan 10, 2011)

Aelthwyn said:


> I can never completely override my instinctual understanding of certain things. Sometimes even when I know full well that something wasn't meant personally, when I consider the conversation, situation, and person logically and know what their negative tone was really about and what they really meant, and all that, even then I can't just stop feeling hurt. It helps, but it doesn't make the initial feeling that was triggered disappear.


Other Fs, do you find this to be true of you as well? Would be interested to get more info on this.


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## Linnifae (Nov 13, 2009)

I find that when dealing with people, I'm initially fine and don't take things personally but sometimes I'll play the conversations back in my head without meaning to, and suddenly "hear" things in a different way and suddenly it seems hurtful. I hate this, and realize my initial reaction was probably more accurate but it happens to me a lot. Does anyone else do this or do I just have issues? At any rate, I try not to dwell on them and usually force myself not to think about it, but if it does end up being an issue I will try to clarify later with the person, but only as a last resort because I'm sure it's rather annoying. :/


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## MrShatter (Sep 28, 2010)

@Loyalgirl

Wonderful job!! I hope they article this thread so I can reference it. Rated: 5 Star
:laughing:


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## Pizal (Jul 8, 2011)

Johnathan said:


> I cannot honestly say that I read every word of every post in this thread (definitely a TLDR situation) but I read all of the first 5 pages or so and skimmed most of the rest. All I can say is that all of you Fs contributing here give me hope for the rest of the world.
> 
> In my experience, I have always been confronted with Fs that have no interest in meeting in the middle at all. From my point of view, I've probably offended them from the minute I've said hello and there just doesn't seem to be anything I can do about it. If I don't understand the problem, I certainly can't do anything to rectify it, right?
> 
> ...


I'll tell you how to deal with F's the 80/20 rule. If you want them to listen to criticism or even not be offended by your jokes you have to say nice things to them more than you say negative things. The idea is like four times more, but it doesn't have to be that much. Think about it like this every time you say something positive it's plus one and every time negative is minus one. Try to stay above zero. (When I say this stuff I just mean the general idea though. I would never count positive and negative comments in my own life). 
Plus I think it would doing that for Ts too. Personally, I'm much more open to negativity coming from someone that I feel already appreciates me.


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## Pizal (Jul 8, 2011)

Plus a lot of types are great with reading others tone, not just Fs. So if your tone comes out false or frustrated some people here it. I get in a lot of fights with my wife (INTJ) and my mom (ISFJ) about that very thing. I always end up saying "Stop yelling at me." When they didn't actually yell, but because of their tone I FELT like they yelled at me.


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## Eylrid (Jun 25, 2009)

Pizal said:


> I'll tell you how to deal with F's the 80/20 rule. If you want them to listen to criticism or even not be offended by your jokes you have to say nice things to them more than you say negative things. The idea is like four times more, but it doesn't have to be that much. Think about it like this every time you say something positive it's plus one and every time negative is minus one. Try to stay above zero. (When I say this stuff I just mean the general idea though. I would never count positive and negative comments in my own life).
> Plus I think it would doing that for Ts too. Personally, I'm much more open to negativity coming from someone that I feel already appreciates me.


Something similar is the sandwich rule: start with something positive, give the constructive criticism, and end with something else positive.


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## Pizal (Jul 8, 2011)

Eylrid said:


> Something similar is the sandwich rule: start with something positive, give the constructive criticism, and end with something else positive.


Yeah, but if the only time you go out of your way to say something positive to someone is when you are just preparing them for criticism they'll still be put off. The idea is to show them they are appreciated and respected. Once the feel like that it's much easy to accept criticism. 
But the above rule doesn't hurt.


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## Aelthwyn (Oct 27, 2010)

Just to add a thought to the 'you need to be more positive than negative' rule...... 

I've known some people who just take all good things kind of for granted, or probably to be more accurate they just don't feel comfortable expressing pleasure or appreciation. It's rather like 'no news is good news' with them and they only think to say something when they don't like it, but seem to assume that everyone just knows that them not saying anything means they approve. But this just doesn't work. The fact that you don't openly criticize me all the time, doesn't counter ballance the few times that you do. In order to do that, you really do have to actually say nice things for me to know that you don't hate me.


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## pierreyounes (Jul 5, 2011)

i was wondering... can Fs put aside their emotions and act in a completely rational way...cz ive yet to see an F not being emotional about everything(by emotional i mean " goes about the situation from a rational perspective rather than emotional" not "sobbing and crying all the time")


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## Toru Okada (May 10, 2011)

pierreyounes said:


> i was wondering... can Fs put aside their emotions and act in a completely rational way...cz ive yet to see an F not being emotional about everything(by emotional i mean " goes about the situation from a rational perspective rather than emotional" not "sobbing and crying all the time")


I will use logic as a door wedge sometimes

because when you don't have a night light, it's the next best thing


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## Linnifae (Nov 13, 2009)

pierreyounes said:


> i was wondering... can Fs put aside their emotions and act in a completely rational way...cz ive yet to see an F not being emotional about everything(by emotional i mean " goes about the situation from a rational perspective rather than emotional" not "sobbing and crying all the time")


No. In fact I'm crying while typing this out.


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## pierreyounes (Jul 5, 2011)

Linnifae said:


> No. In fact I'm crying while typing this out.


 cute!... thank u for the amazing reply...very mature.


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## pierreyounes (Jul 5, 2011)

Admros said:


> I will use logic as a door wedge sometimes
> 
> because when you don't have a night light, it's the next best thing


you too! really cute!


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## pierreyounes (Jul 5, 2011)

Im sorry if that hurt your feeling guys but lets try to suck it up and not be so sarcastic with the posts, its not exactly your thing.


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## Linnifae (Nov 13, 2009)

pierreyounes said:


> cute!... thank u for the amazing reply...very mature.


Joking is immature? I thought an INTJ of all people would be able to deal with a bit of light sarcasm. And as for what our "thing" is....no one owns sarcasm. Not even NTs. Sorry again. But you did kind of make an unflattering sweeping generalization so it's to be expected I guess. I'm not offended in the slightest, only mildly curious as to why you are.


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## vellocent (Dec 18, 2010)

Excellent explanation, I'll add some more just for fun. 
I tend to look for the good in people, so I'm the one arguing for everyone to be accepted. That comes from years of being an outsider. The last time this happened I ultimately lost, because the group had decided to reject this person. So in groups, the vote to reject or accept someone depends on the majority, much like congress on a small scale. The easiest people for me to accept are authentic and understand where they fit in. The first thing is behavior, then appearances, then words. There are also different levels of acceptance too. Basically, the more acceptance I feel for someone, the more I will give up for him or her. If the acceptance isn't there, then I can be heartless and insensitive; which would also be referred to as anger or irritability. Thinking I'm rejected, but I accepted causes sadness or jealousy (why does X like this person, but not me). Which can run over to other situations where I'm accepting, so this is why I apologize constantly for how I'm feeling.


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## calliope (Jul 8, 2010)

Loyalgirl, really nicely written post and very clear and insightful.

But it leaves me confused. You paint the world of a feeler in such combative terms. You say "criticism is used for"... and "everything is up for our attacks" and "with the intent to break down." I don't think I have ever had the intent to break someone down. And I can't imagine using criticism for the purpose of hurting someone or attacking anyone unless it was heat of the moment. But you seem to describe these things as tactical, premeditated. What you are describing I would categorize as the purposeful tearing down of others' self esteem. 

I always thought feeler types were more about promoting love, but when I read the description there seems to be so much hate, the last thing I would expect from people who want others to feel good.


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## Johnathan (Jul 2, 2011)

calliope said:


> I don't think I have ever had the intent to break someone down. And I can't imagine using criticism for the purpose of hurting someone or attacking anyone unless it was heat of the moment.


Agree. Certainly, if antagonized sufficiently, I _could_ do something like this but I can't really think of a situation where it would be useful to willfully do this.


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## Loyalgirl (Jan 10, 2011)

calliope said:


> Loyalgirl, really nicely written post and very clear and insightful.
> 
> But it leaves me confused. You paint the world of a feeler in such combative terms. You say "criticism is used for"... and "everything is up for our attacks" and "with the intent to break down." I don't think I have ever had the intent to break someone down. And I can't imagine using criticism for the purpose of hurting someone or attacking anyone unless it was heat of the moment. But you seem to describe these things as tactical, premeditated. What you are describing I would categorize as the purposeful tearing down of others' self esteem.
> 
> I always thought feeler types were more about promoting love, but when I read the description there seems to be so much hate, the last thing I would expect from people who want others to feel good.


I wrote this article in a certain extreme style (I tend to right that way). What I'm describing is an F type gone bad, the most extreme example. Obviously most of us aren't that bad. For instance some of us will only lash out with words when hurt terribly by someone. But there are some that are definitely more combative and will lash out more frequently and in premeditated fashion. I didn't go into this but this is usually because of a bad attitude or view, or for revenge for something evil that was done to them.

We SHOULD be about promoting love, but there are some mean Fs out there, just as there can be selfish, destructive people of every type. Of course everyone has some good in them (at least that's what I believe) but some ppl are definitely not going around promoting harmony and peace--some of them F obviously.

I'm surprised you've never wanted to "break someone down." It's likely you've done this perhaps you were just not mindful of what you were doing at the time. Few people want to utterly destroy someone (the F type gone bad I described) But we all do destructive things to overpower someone out of fear, our issues, or a combative spirit to get ahead. The goal is to injure the person, whatever the reason we are doing this for, I think it's safe to say we are all guilty of this


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## calliope (Jul 8, 2010)

Loyalgirl said:


> I wrote this article in a certain extreme style (I tend to right that way). What I'm describing is an F type gone bad, the most extreme example. Obviously most of us aren't that bad. For instance some of us will only lash out with words when hurt terribly by someone. But there are some that are definitely more combative and will lash out more frequently and in premeditated fashion. I didn't go into this but this is usually because of a bad attitude or view, or for revenge for something evil that was done to them.
> 
> We SHOULD be about promoting love, but there are some mean Fs out there, just as there can be selfish, destructive people of every type. Of course everyone has some good in them (at least that's what I believe) but some ppl are definitely not going around promoting harmony and peace--some of them F obviously.
> 
> I'm surprised you've never wanted to "break someone down." It's likely you've done this perhaps you were just not mindful of what you were doing at the time. Few people want to utterly destroy someone (the F type gone bad I described) But we all do destructive things to overpower someone out of fear, our issues, or a combative spirit to get ahead. The goal is to injure the person, whatever the reason we are doing this for, I think it's safe to say we are all guilty of this


I really like how you wrote it, style-wise, and it gave us a good understanding. I can appreciate slight exaggeration for clarity. I get it now. 

However, the ease at which you talk about wanting to break someone down or criticize them or make them feel bad about themselves is a little shocking. I haven't experienced that kind of feeling towards others outside of heat of the moment, so I am wondering if that is another part of the F experience that T's might not share. I can definitely say I have experienced it from F's towards me, but I always thought it came from a loss of emotional equilibrium. 

Self esteem can be a pretty sacred area to a lot of people. It's probably in a similar category as breaking another's spirit, sort of another sacred cow. I think a lot of T's might be surprised if they found out that F's consider the goal of injuring another person a normal part of human interaction. Although it also might explain a lot of things.


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## virtualvortexrider (Jun 7, 2010)

calliope said:


> I really like how you wrote it, style-wise, and it gave us a good understanding. I can appreciate slight exaggeration for clarity. I get it now.
> 
> However, the ease at which you talk about wanting to break someone down or criticize them or make them feel bad about themselves is a little shocking. I haven't experienced that kind of feeling towards others outside of heat of the moment, so I am wondering if that is another part of the F experience that T's might not share. I can definitely say I have experienced it from F's towards me, but I always thought it came from a loss of emotional equilibrium.
> 
> Self esteem can be a pretty sacred area to a lot of people. It's probably in a similar category as breaking another's spirit, sort of another sacred cow. I think a lot of T's might be surprised if they found out that F's consider the goal of injuring another person a normal part of human interaction. Although it also might explain a lot of things.


 duh! =) How detached has one got to be to not know this? I mean power plays are all about this. And they happen all the time. Mostly they are rationalized away buy using extenuating circumstances. Or do let the ends justify the means.


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## virtualvortexrider (Jun 7, 2010)

To clarify. I work closely together with an INTJ. And he is very out there. All his explanations start somewhere in nirvana and go even further - rarely coming to a conclusion. And I thought I was out of touch with reality. =)


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## Doom (Oct 25, 2010)

Loyalgirl said:


> I'm pretty good at using them and I can really hurt other Fs by doing it, especially INFJs. Infjs would rather have you slug them than insult them in a deeply personal way (and actually I'm the same way even though enfp, provided i actually care about the person who is doing the insulting. If it's someone i could care less about it hurts far less and sometimes not at all). I feel retribution because it hurts the person, perhaps even worse than they hurt me. (especially if we are talking infj vs enfp xD) Of course I don't do any of these things anymore, for the most part, unless someone attacks a close friend or family then I attack. There are definitely times when you have to fight though is what I am trying to say.


You may have mistyped your friend, in my experience I've never ever had an ENFP say anything that could remotely upset me.

Also not meaning to sound sexist but I think gender plays a bigger role (at least with the way they act). The other day I was getting agitated with an ISFJ where I said something in an angry tone and she got extremely emotional at the whole ordeal ignoring my explanation of the situation but all that came out of her was pure emotion, no rational thought. Put myself in the same situation and no way would I let my emotions lash out like that just because of the way somebody talked to me.

Similarly there was a group of about 6 of us in a chat room (all 4 IN types) with an INTP male and INFP female. The INTP guy was constantly on the INFPs case (to be fair she was a bit of a drama queen/attention seeker but a nice girl who I liked having around) insulting her and inviting other people who enjoyed egging her on. After a while because of his trolling antics she started crying and has now left. 

What I personally think the real issue is that some T types (especially INTx) are quick to jump to the insults without fair reasoning. They would rather call something "shit" without explaining what's wrong and are the types to state their opinion as fact. Then as a result you try to explain something in which your Fi/Fe is going to come out and they instantly go to say that they're being sensitive or extremely defensive. Or hell, some times I just state something and write out something long then get responses like "holy shit why so defensive" or lately "u mad?" etc.


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## calliope (Jul 8, 2010)

virtualvortexrider said:


> duh! =) How detached has one got to be to not know this? I mean power plays are all about this. And they happen all the time. Mostly they are rationalized away buy using extenuating circumstances. Or do let the ends justify the means.


Actually, I was trying to be diplomatic in my choice of words. I know very well how F's use manipulation, back-stabbing and the purposeful ripping apart other people's self esteem, and I am well aware that they have no qualms about destroying another person's livelihood, reputation, character over a perceived loyalty violation. What I am trying to understand here is if I should feel sorry for them, and excuse their behavior because of a cognitive function that they have no control over. 

It is, however, interesting to read Loyalgirl's very accurate interpretation of F behavior. It coincides with what is termed in sociology as gang behavior, a black and white world where you are either for or against, friend or enemy, and your power is based on the weakening of your enemy and respect is earned by aggression and intimidation. 

I also find it very interesting to hear that F's believe the rest of the world thinks like they do. This is also common in criminal mentality, where the behavior is often excused by the belief that everyone else is out to get them, so they don't have to feel bad about lying, cheating, and stealing, and they believe that the outer rhetoric about ethics and fair treatment of others is just that, rhetoric. 

It is also interesting to hear about the myth that F's are nice and want harmony. That one I will admit to be taken in on and naive about, but I am getting better at seeing that F's have to say they are nice for propriety's sake, but all know that's just for outside appearances and that the real F life is about power, and socializing is not about connecting or bonding with others for comfort and care. Socializing is the arena for F's to fight for power. 

I wish I could say this thread has helped me break down the negative stereotypes that seem to surround F's, but, as a previous poster said, it seems that the stereotypes are true!


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## Loyalgirl (Jan 10, 2011)

@calliope

You need to meet some good Fs. Make an infj friend. There are some wonderful ones on this forum. Seems you've gone from the extreme of thinking we are all wonderful to the opposite of thinking we are all power-hungry demons. Neither is true.

Just to let you know though, those of us who do decide to be loving and supportive are usually quite devoted to it. We watch our every move and word to try and build people up (which is often not noticed by Ts lol). We make it a life goal and endeavor to be a positive influence in this world. Of course, not everyone is like this and there are some people who are not fully devoted, but it does seem that once an F makes a conscience decision to "make the world a better place" most of them go all out with it, making it a daily endeavor. And that's not to say we don't slip up sometimes and say/do unkind things. We are human.


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Loyalgirl said:


> @calliope
> 
> You need to meet some good Fs. Make an infj friend. There are some wonderful ones on this forum. Seems you've gone from the extreme of thinking we are all wonderful to the opposite of thinking we are all power-hungry demons. Neither is true.
> 
> Just to let you know though, those of us who do decide to be loving and supportive are usually quite devoted to it. We watch our every move and word to try and build people up (which is often not noticed by Ts lol). We make it a life goal and endeavor to be a positive influence in this world. Of course, not everyone is like this and there are some people who are not fully devoted, but it does seem that once an F makes a conscience decision to "make the world a better place" most of them go all out with it, making it a daily endeavor. And that's not to say we don't slip up sometimes and say/do unkind things. We are human.


I don't think so. Wishful thinking perhaps but I don't think I know anyone F or T that watches every move and word to try and build anyone up. That's a long bow to draw. It's funny.


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## Loyalgirl (Jan 10, 2011)

bethdeth said:


> I don't think so. Wishful thinking perhaps but I don't think I know anyone F or T that watches every move and word to try and build anyone up. That's a long bow to draw. It's funny.


I do that. Then again, I plan out EVERYTHING. I have CFS, so I have lots of time on my hands to be inside my head thinking everything through. So by the time I socialize with ppl I've got everything planned out. It's actually quite retarded, not to mention stressful for an E to be alone so much :/


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## Loyalgirl (Jan 10, 2011)

Loyalgirl said:


> I do that. Then again, I plan out EVERYTHING. I have CFS, so I have lots of time on my hands to be inside my head thinking everything through. So by the time I socialize with ppl I've got everything planned out. It's actually quite retarded, not to mention stressful for an E to be alone so much :/


I do definitely make a point of building ppl up. I do it consciously. Fs are known to call up their friends and say encouraging things, to always be there for them for support. We are also known to apologize sincerely if we say the wrong thing and feel quite guilty about it, often more than we should. There IS good in us lol


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Loyalgirl said:


> I do that. Then again, I plan out EVERYTHING. I have CFS, so I have lots of time on my hands to be inside my head thinking everything through. So by the time I socialize with ppl I've got everything planned out. It's actually quite retarded, not to mention stressful for an E to be alone so much :/


Just as an aside....it might be beneficial for you to look at food intolerance. A lot of CSF symptoms are food intolerance symptoms too.


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## Loyalgirl (Jan 10, 2011)

bethdeth said:


> Just as an aside....it might be beneficial for you to look at food intolerance. A lot of CSF symptoms are food intolerance symptoms too.


I actually found the root cause. My adrenal glands are severely compromised, likely due to genetics plus a stressful childhood. If they are slightly compromised they can be built back up with the things I've tried (cortisol pills and supplements), but not if they are as bad as mine. I'm now fundraising for a stem cell transplant which has been shown to cure many people with my condition and greatly improve the rest. They have seen amazing results with it so I'm hopeful.


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Loyalgirl said:


> I actually found the root cause. My adrenal glands are severely compromised, likely due to genetics plus a stressful childhood. If they are slightly compromised they can be built back up with the things I've tried (cortisol pills and supplements), but not if they are as bad as mine. I'm now fundraising for a stem cell transplant which has been shown to cure many people with my condition and greatly improve the rest. They have seen amazing results with it so I'm hopeful.


My son has no adrenal glands at all now, takes synthetic cortisol 3 times each day and he's fine. Keyhole adrenalectomy is a hell of a lot easier than stem cell research. CFS is a disorder that they are still arguing about whether it is just a set of symptoms or not.


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## Loyalgirl (Jan 10, 2011)

bethdeth said:


> My son has no adrenal glands at all now, takes synthetic cortisol 3 times each day and he's fine. Keyhole adrenalectomy is a hell of a lot easier than stem cell research. CFS is a disorder that they are still arguing about whether it is just a set of symptoms or not.


I still produce a very small amount of cortisol, so my doctor won't put me on a higher dose of cortisol because it will make my body cease to produce any. There can be some serious side effects that I'm sure you know about--the spinal cord breaking being the most severe. I'm on 20 mgs cortisol, but it feels more like 5 :/ for some reason my body can't utilize it very well. It goes up to normal when I take it then quickly tapers down to below normal within the first hour. My doctor is not sure why this "blunted response" happens, but it's another reason why they won't put me on more cortisol.

The stem cells have cured many other CFS patients and that's enough for me to be convinced. I've tried everything else, this is the last thing. Been to Mayo Clinic, seen specialists, and they could barely do anything for me. Stem cells can do much more.


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Loyalgirl said:


> I still produce a very small amount of cortisol, so my doctor won't put me on a higher dose of cortisol because it will make my body cease to produce any. There can be some serious side effects that I'm sure you know about--the spinal cord breaking being the most severe. I'm on 20 mgs cortisol, but it feels more like 5 :/ for some reason my body can't utilize it very well. It goes up to normal when I take it then quickly tapers down to below normal within the first hour. My doctor is not sure why this "blunted response" happens, but it's another reason why they won't put me on more cortisol.
> 
> The stem cells have cured many other CFS patients and that's enough for me to be convinced. I've tried everything else, this is the last thing. Been to Mayo Clinic, seen specialists, and they could barely do anything for me. Stem cells can do much more.


CFS seems a flaky name for what seems to be a type of early stage of Addison's which is what I will probably have myself in the next few years from cortisol usage (to control autoimmune response to food allergy).

Anyway...back on topic:

I have noticed on this forum that there are an awful lot of claims thrown around by people with the magic "F" in their type that they "care" more than "T" types and I'm really not convinced that it true at all. To go over old ground that happened in the INTJ forum for example there was a thread called are INTJs arseholes to which a few "F" types replied yes, justified themselves, then offered help to fix the "hapless INTJs". This is pretty much an extreme example of which I see pretty much every day in lesser degrees. You're an arsehole, here let me help you, let's do it my way, there aren't we all better now?

Take this apart, break it down and see what I mean and it will always be the "Ts" being the arseholes for some strange reason.....it has me scratching my head every time....wha?


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

bethdeth said:


> Take this apart, break it down and see what I mean and it will always be the "Ts" being the arseholes for some strange reason.....it has me scratching my head every time....wha?


It is pretty strange...

I can definitely sympathise with @calliope's response. Simply the idea of seeing the world in such a, well, zero-sum manner as the Fs describe is something that I would find terribly uncomfortable. It seems such a precarious system, having to build oneself and others up to avoid of being torn down, to have to protect, defend, negotiate, appease, connect...all to somehow say in much the same place, in the end.


> "Well, in our country," said Alice, still panting a little, "you'd generally get to somewhere else — if you run very fast for a long time, as we've been doing."
> "A slow sort of country!" said the Queen. "Now, here, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"


I think I would rather stand on solid ground. It can be a bit of an isolated way of seeing things compared to the interconnectedness of the shifting sands. But it is more secure, as very little changes where I am, and I needn't worry about others rising for it is not like I fall down in consequence, the way it seems to be outside. On balance, I prefer my way very much, where less maintenance is needed and less intentional destruction happens. I am secure and hope others are the same, though in the end that is up to them. As much as dislike of deliberate breaking down of others is a bit part of it, it is the entire system that I find alien and, well really disturbing. But then I presume Fs might be prone to see what I consider self-sufficiency/a place to stand as that "cold" word they do so love to use. It is not unreasonable that either of us would prefer our more natural environments and have problems with the other, rather than something like not meeting enough nice Feelers.

Most of the area where the tearing down takes place...to me, that's like shadows and reflections on a lake. The lake remains what it is regardless - it is not dependent upon what others see in it. As such, it is hard to take all that seriously, much less invest tons of effort into creating the perfect reflection - when what people see is based more on what is outside the lake than what it is. Vague, tangential, external enough to feel surface, not really under my control anyways...not my thing.


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## calliope (Jul 8, 2010)

Of course there are exceptions in the F world. And if you say you are one, Loyalgirl, I will take your word for it. The only reason I have thought that F's stood for bonding, caring and putting love into the world is because they make such a show of being for this. The mistake I have made is to think that the change they want T's to make in order to not upset them is to get us to care more about others, as they do. Obviously when I find out that the real essence of this thread is how to not get attacked by an oversensitive F, well, then I am not so motivated to change for them.

As a T, I know that I need to get in touch with my emotions in order to live a balanced life. Most T's accept they ought to, whether they do it or not. But I object to the lack of acceptance from F's that they have to work on their self esteem in order not to tear the world to shreds. I have been in many of these discussions, and it always ends up 20 pages later with the F's saying, "Oh, yeah, we will attack you unless you do XYZ. It's in our nature." And then they go back to trying to get T's to change in order to accommodate their destructive behavior. I'm getting tired of it.


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## Loyalgirl (Jan 10, 2011)

@calliope

No offence but it's easy for an F to interpret a T as being harsher than they really are. A lot of times you say things that in our language means something very harsh and that's why we try to get YOU to change. It's not that we don't feel partially at fault, it's just that in our language you have said the harsher words and we feel that you must be the one who needs to alter what you say the most in order tto keep the peace. I see it so differently now since I've talked with Ts...but most Fs who have not talked this through with Ts will still see it the first way.


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Saying what is meant is no harsher than not saying what you mean in order to manipulate a situation. If you break down something that is direct there isn't anything there but the directness. However an "F" would like to take a statement that is direct and straightforward is entirely their choice. Jumping at shadows and claiming something is harsh doesn't change the reality of what is said. It's simple and there for everyone to see.

If we look at it conversely where an "F" is to say something and not mean what they say. They mean something else, then it is changed around again to mean something else and there is an undercurrent of language only known to the "F". Then expectations are added on top of that, then persuasion, cajoling, subtle threats and more expectations, still only known to an "F" then after a few dozen back flips, turn arounds and hail Marys then we finally get to the truth of the matter.....oh you want me to do something for you? You didn't ask, you didn't state but in the end it's something that you want me to do? To make you feel better? After you have basically avoided the truth of making a first statement, then a second statement, a third and a fourth and up to 20 times to get to the "heart" of the matter.


It's not "F" talk really. It's not caring more. It's not building up it's simple word manipulation to sound nicer and get what is wanted in a sneakier way than simply stating. If you don't read the language of the supposed "F" type you're basically screwed and manipulated into thinking you're the arsehole. A whole lot of time wasting going on to say something so simple in the first place. 

Is this the end result of what the first "statement" was about?
Please talk my language? Well.....it's not as easy as that. If you make up your own language and change it all to suit to avoid making a "harsh" statement then it defies the concept of being able to effectively communicate needs and desires. 

Please don't hurt my feelings. Well....the fact of the matter is that everyone is basically master of their own feelings. There is only so much you can do in this world to "do no harm". I would expect that adults would start to feel some responsibility for their own feelings and start think in grown up rational ways, regardless of whether they are "F", "T" or whatever.

When I first said that I would not alter or play to suit an "F" type I was thinking hmmmmm maybe there is something in the language of an "F" type to beholden and this secret language is something that could be learned but screw it because I have done my time dancing to someone else's beat.. It comes to mind more and more as the progression goes on to explain the values set out. It's not really "F" talk at all. We all speak the same language. Just some of us....whether "F" or "T" speak what we mean better.


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

I was avoiding responding to this thread but...can't help myself. First i want to say that the article the OP wrote is from her own perspective, and she can't speak on behalf of all feelers. She wasn't nominated by the feelers to project her own truth. Some of what was written could be said as valid, the sections that are obvious. Everything else written by the OP was from her point of view, life experiences and so on. I don't want her to speak for me, and certainly don't agree with everything that was written. 

When threads like this are created the OP should keep in mind that the words are their own. Using words like US, WE, ALL, is simply not acceptable. There should have been a disclaimer also indicating that this was from their perspective. All feelers don't need or want the same things as another. We don't all act or behave the same way as mentioned. We don't all need the validation the OP was suggesting. We don't all hurt people for the sake of doing it. We don't all tare people down to get what we want.

So in the future OP, you are entitled to spin your version of feelers and what is needed or wanted any way you choose. BUT.....replace the US, ALL AND WE...with - me, myself and I, because at the end of the day, much of what was written is your own personal opinion, not the opinions and experiences of all of us. Until you have lived my life, or walked in my shoes, regardless if i'm a feeler or a thinker, you can't project or predict the outcome of my actions or behaviors, my needs and wants, my anything for that matter.

The point of the matter is....Speak for yourself, on behalf of yourself.


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## calliope (Jul 8, 2010)

Loyalgirl said:


> @calliope
> 
> No offence but it's easy for an F to interpret a T as being harsher than they really are. A lot of times you say things that in our language means something very harsh and that's why we try to get YOU to change. It's not that we don't feel partially at fault, it's just that in our language you have said the harsher words and we feel that you must be the one who needs to alter what you say the most in order tto keep the peace. I see it so differently now since I've talked with Ts...but most Fs who have not talked this through with Ts will still see it the first way.


First I want to say that I appreciate and understand what muchaparadox said. And Loyalgirl, I suppose what disturbed me was not the idea of you doing these terrible things, but that feelers could believe that this kind of behavior is fine and normal and that you would think it was fine to live in that kind of emotional environment. 

While you say that we are interpreted as harsher, I don't agree that that's really what happens. We are actually interpreted, not as harsh, but as the enemy, as someone who will, as Aethwyn put it, hate you. And these things you ask of us are being done so that you don't have to believe we hate you and so you don't retaliate by hating us.

I am not comfortable interacting with someone who believes the average person would be out to hate them. I am not comfortable with someone who could hate me just for being who I am. It is not actually okay or normal for anyone to walk around with that much hatred and fear of the hatred of others. Of course we all have our moments, and I can be as paranoid and full of fear as anyone else, but if that way of thinking ever becomes normal for a person, there is what might be termed something spiritually wrong with that person. Their relationship with themself is very unwell. 

I am just saying there are many, many ways to heal from that problem, but the request for another to foster or validate that brand of hatred is not okay. You say that we are the ones that have to do something to keep the peace. I disagree. What business does one ever have to attack a reasonable person in a non-emotionally violent environment? There are answers and ways to work things out with T's, and they probably have to do with one side being a little more sensitive to the effect of their words and the other side learning how to trust those that care about them.


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## MCRTS (Jul 4, 2011)

IMO, I don't feel that what Ts say are particulalry harsh. It's just the truth. I have quite a few T friends (and others whom I believe are T, but I haven't gotten them to take the test yet), and they are direct and straightforward with me, which I do like and appreciate. I guess it wasn't very hard seperating my emotions from my opinions, because to quote a T friend, I am emotionless.


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## virtualvortexrider (Jun 7, 2010)

Let me put it in T - Logic. Feelers work according to the Tit for Tat principle. (Tit for tat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) Or as the old testament said an eye for an eye. Feelers are IMO (as an INFP) more susceptible to mirror the feelings of other people. (That's the failsafe.) So feelers are tuned to work in social groups with high transparency and lots of change. So you kind of need to feel your way through social interactions since they change so fast. We are pretty adaptable as long as we are respected as persons. The non direct way is just to create plausible deniability (like in politics and diplomacy and espionage) so that not the whole group can pin you down on things. 

I find the F way to be more real than the abstract T since F reacts to what is (connection or no connection) vs the Ts abstract reasoning sometimes ignoring the reality (because it does not fit the theory) Fs adapt quickly to social situations and that's why they tend to be less reliable unless they are emotionally invested in a decision or outcome.

I hope that all made sense.

My theory is Ts build the world and are the bricks and fs are the mortar holding it all together.


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## n2freedom (Jun 2, 2011)

MuChApArAdOx said:


> I was avoiding responding to this thread but...can't help myself. First i want to say that the article the OP wrote is from her own perspective, and she can't speak on behalf of all feelers. She wasn't nominated by the feelers to project her own truth. Some of what was written could be said as valid, the sections that are obvious. Everything else written by the OP was from her point of view, life experiences and so on. I don't want her to speak for me, and certainly don't agree with everything that was written.
> 
> When threads like this are created the OP should keep in mind that the words are their own. Using words like US, WE, ALL, is simply not acceptable. There should have been a disclaimer also indicating that this was from their perspective. All feelers don't need or want the same things as another. We don't all act or behave the same way as mentioned. We don't all need the validation the OP was suggesting. We don't all hurt people for the sake of doing it. We don't all tare people down to get what we want.
> 
> ...


I share your lament about reluctantly posting within this thread especially since I could really only stomach reading only the first few pages and had great difficulty with fighting back a WTF reflex. I agree with you, the original post should really be interpreted as the experience of one person. 

I find that I personally could not relate to *most* of the opinions shared on this thread concerning the characteristics of Feelers. And, I'm still not sold on this concept of words mean a certain thing for a F vs T. Does that mean we need to develop new dictionaries? The Webster for Feelers and Webster for Thinkers? I just can't wrap my brain around that concept.

What I can wrap my brain around is we all perceive differently and may interpret *motive* differently based on what someone says. We filter everything we hear through our life experiences and our frame of reference. And consequently, we decide prematurely what the other person means before he/she finishes communicating. 

There are countless examples of misinterpretation of motives during heated discussions throughout the forum. But, even with that being said I still would be leery to reduce it down to a pattern of F vs T. 

However, I believe the *root cause* of miscommunication is when one or both of the parties focus during the communication has *shifted from* trying to understand the message that the sender is giving. 

For instance, if the receiver focus shifts to I must be right, then the receiver is no longer focused on understanding the message of the sender. And, at that point all information will be filtered to either prove the sender is wrong or to prove the receiver is right.

As a result, the receiver will get frustrated because they will not feel heard. And, how they respond will vary depending upon how that individual prefers to communicate under stress, their frame of reference and/or life experiences.

So, the moral of the story is to seek *FIRST* to understand and then be understood. In other words we could all benefit by learning and/or practicing empathic listening. I believe that communication would improve drastically if we spent more time during communication actually *listening* to understand the sender's message.


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

virtualvortexrider said:


> Let me put it in T - Logic. Feelers work according to the Tit for Tat principle. (Tit for tat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) Or as the old testament said an eye for an eye. Feelers are IMO (as an INFP) more susceptible to mirror the feelings of other people. (That's the failsafe.) So feelers are tuned to work in social groups with high transparency and lots of change. So you kind of need to feel your way through social interactions since they change so fast. We are pretty adaptable as long as we are respected as persons. The non direct way is just to create plausible deniability (like in politics and diplomacy and espionage) so that not the whole group can pin you down on things.
> 
> I find the F way to be more real than the abstract T since F reacts to what is (connection or no connection) vs the Ts abstract reasoning sometimes ignoring the reality (because it does not fit the theory) Fs adapt quickly to social situations and that's why they tend to be less reliable unless they are emotionally invested in a decision or outcome.
> 
> ...


It didn't really make sense at all. No offence but it seems like you are talking from a completely different spectrum away from MBTI.

It's kinda reversed and skewed away from MBTI theory and fundamentals of T vs F and N vs S are actually backwards.

Introversion works better away from groups and Extroversion more towards groups not really F or T. 

I will say that Fe users are probably more orientated towards groups though.

You make this "feelers" way of "feeling" their way a group seem alien and filled with more unwritten rules. Quite intimidating and ensnaring for someone on the outside of the language zone.

I don't believe it to be true. I can get on really well with feelers and never have to face that daunting task with them....ensnare me to go to a Tupperware party or lingerie party with a group of women and it would be a different story...it's hold on to your pooper and run for your life scary.

I think it really boils down to good ol' education levels and intelligence that ascertain what level of understanding can be achieved. Maturity, self responsibility and rational isn't just set aside for any particular types. We all have our fair share I would think. It's just that sometimes we get confused and try to categorise too far when there isn't a real need. Freud was guilty of his categorisations getting too far in one direction. Most of his patients were neurotic, bourgeoisie, Christian women and he based a lot of theory and generalised it to a broader public. I think that's what's happened here with OP. *shrugs* 

Interesting discussion nonetheless.


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## Narrator (Oct 11, 2009)

I also don't feel that much resonation with the original post.


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## Nonconsensus (May 19, 2011)

virtualvortexrider said:


> (Tit for tat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
> 
> I find the F way to be more real than the abstract T since F reacts to what is (connection or no connection) vs the Ts abstract reasoning sometimes ignoring the reality (because it does not fit the theory) Fs adapt quickly to social situations and that's why they tend to be less reliable unless they are emotionally invested in a decision or outcome.


This is a standpoint I find interesting to consider. But at this moment, I'm inclined to disagree with the notion that the F way is any more real than T; I find it far more abstract than T (this is obviously a case of subjectivity), and just as susceptible to misreadings.

Through personal observation, I sometimes question the F's judgment of connections as much as the T's, especially after hearing multiple sides of the story and realizing the huge disconnect in perceptions. And this happens a lot. A lot of this is self evident on this forum - who knows what the extent of such misconceptions really is in real life?



virtualvortexrider said:


> So feelers are tuned to work in social groups with high transparency and lots of change. So you kind of need to feel your way through social interactions since they change so fast. We are pretty adaptable as long as we are respected as persons. The non direct way is just to create plausible deniability (like in politics and diplomacy and espionage) so that not the whole group can pin you down on things.


Here, we're assuming that the Fs themselves have mastered the "language" accurately - which is often _not_ the case in reality. History is laden with mistakes made both by Ts and Fs, in both areas of logic and emotions, and both with devastating effects. While this should be self evident, Ts _do_ commit logical fallacies. What makes the F any less susceptible to, say, "emotional fallacies"?



virtualvortexrider said:


> My theory is Ts build the world and are the bricks and fs are the mortar holding it all together.


I don't see it that way. More often than not, I think F connections _are_ the bricks while the Ts methodologies are the "mortar", not the other way round.

It's just getting past the "F way" that's a problem for me, when people sometimes seem to be forever stuck at building the connections and never really solving the problem. Likewise, we'll have people forever stuck at trying to get people to fit into a system that is designed for _no one_ - I know I'm liable to do that.


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## Mendi the ISFJ (Jul 28, 2011)

this was helpful, i mean at some level i knew these things... and i realize you are not an expert but you have made some astute observations and good suggestions. Ts may determine that following these pointers is a waste of their energy but if anyone at all follows your advice it will be beneficial to someone. I agree very much with " An F that is critiquing you for the purpose of pointing out flaws to help you improve will do so in a gentle manner, mentioning good things about you first and then moving on to the negative second. It may take them a while to get to the actual flaw." I do this.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Honestly, the whole post sounded more Fe than Fi...though the OP is supposed to have Fi. I don`t know.


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

lirulin said:


> Honestly, the whole post sounded more Fe than Fi...though the OP is supposed to have Fi. I don`t know.


If that were the case then OP would be neither ENFP nor ESFP. I agree. It did sound more like one of the INFJ arguments. *shrug*

Whatever the case may be it doesn't take into account the many "F" types who post in the INTJ forum and understand and contribute to discussion without trying to change the INTJs into another mini me "F" type.


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## virtualvortexrider (Jun 7, 2010)

bethdeth said:


> It didn't really make sense at all. No offence but it seems like you are talking from a completely different spectrum away from MBTI.
> 
> It's kinda reversed and skewed away from MBTI theory and fundamentals of T vs F and N vs S are actually backwards.
> 
> ...


Yes after I posted that I thought about that too. This too is MY experience as an INFP.


bethdeth said:


> You make this "feelers" way of "feeling" their way a group seem alien and filled with more unwritten rules. Quite intimidating and ensnaring for someone on the outside of the language zone.
> 
> I don't believe it to be true. I can get on really well with feelers and never have to face that daunting task with them....ensnare me to go to a Tupperware party or lingerie party with a group of women and it would be a different story...it's hold on to your pooper and run for your life scary.


I guess its intuition coupled with feeling on my part. And expecting that back from the ST people is obviously misplaced. Doing things spontaneously out of compassion and going the extra mile (still unconsciously not altruistic) but consciously one thinks on does somebody else a favor (that he did not ask for) and expects him to reciprocate. (or at least notice)
And if that does not happen one feels disrespected and cuts of contact to avoid selling out. It's not a conscious decision for me. I actually have to feel something to be important in order for me to actually do it. So the inverse is if you want a feeler to have a passion for something then make sure the little things are not overlooked since that's how it's being shown.


bethdeth said:


> I think it really boils down to good ol' education levels and intelligence that ascertain what level of understanding can be achieved. Maturity, self responsibility and rational isn't just set aside for any particular types. We all have our fair share I would think. It's just that sometimes we get confused and try to categorise too far when there isn't a real need. Freud was guilty of his categorisations getting too far in one direction. Most of his patients were neurotic, bourgeoisie, Christian women and he based a lot of theory and generalised it to a broader public. I think that's what's happened here with OP. *shrugs*
> 
> Interesting discussion nonetheless.


Yes education as well and culture. 

AFAIK feelers are mostly women and thinkers mostly men. Dealing with kids (that are not that advanced on a maturity level) requires quick and sensitive responses. And I guess that's where it mostly makes sense. Also women's investment in sexual reproduction is higher than mens (9 months) and potential death during child birth so they need to be sensitive and flexible to test the character of the potential man. And that not only once but constantly. And the best way of doing that is to be unpredictable by going by your feelings. Couple that with being able to fake feelings for several reasons (keep peace, manipulate, etc.) and you know where OP comes from.

The best response of a T is to be true to himself but still take genuine feelings into account and another feeler has to be diplomatic/ play the game.

F is like a high frequency trading algorithm on the stock exchange. =)


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## virtualvortexrider (Jun 7, 2010)

Nonconsensus said:


> This is a standpoint I find interesting to consider. But at this moment, I'm inclined to disagree with the notion that the F way is any more real than T; I find it far more abstract than T (this is obviously a case of subjectivity), and just as susceptible to misreadings.
> 
> Through personal observation, I sometimes question the F's judgment of connections as much as the T's, especially after hearing multiple sides of the story and realizing the huge disconnect in perceptions. And this happens a lot. A lot of this is self evident on this forum - who knows what the extent of such misconceptions really is in real life?
> 
> ...


1. true that. I used to be a fake INTP for 25 years. Only after moving to Ireland from Germany I noticed a gradual change. And what I thought (probably felt anyway) before was as true as what I feel now. I guess it's just a different perspective. See above F for me seems to have a higher sampling frequency than thinking. (since the hypothalamus is older than the cortex and less complex, I guess that makes sense as well.)

2. Well Fs have a shadow side as well. The good side is politically correct and the repressed side is selfish. And of course if two feelers are not on the same wavelength then they won't click. I used to go swing dancing and on one occasion one Lady came and bragged about her new dress or whatever, I was not impressed and another Lady ( the dance teacher) introduced me to the rule to compliment.
It's not optional  This rule can be observed when women meet and they compliment superficial things. The reason behind it is that the dress or whatever expresses the feelings of the wearer. I.e. it is a part of them. If you criticize the dress you criticize the persons connection to that dress.

3. See the end of 2. I guess you kind of are forced to learn it if you want to be part of the social circle or you get ostracized. (I.e. the worst for a man is if you beat him (better than him) the worst for a girl is if nobody talks to her (connects to her). Connection does not mean be of the same opinion but exchange opinions.

4. See end of 3. Yes part of the connection thing is to maintain it ( always have the latest inside scoop) like who likes whom ho hates whom etc. And yes as I said earlier. My INTJ coworker is building systems left and right. I admire his work ethic. 

One example: He wanted to get a table in the coffee room so that if you "feel" like bringing a coworker a coffee you know how they like it and look it up. (this proposal was rejected and he was kind of pissed because if even such simple things would not be approved how about more complex things) My response was that if you cared about a coworker then you ask how he likes his coffee and remember it. Since you certainly won't bring coffee with you for random people. The second rebuttal (more logical) was that if every team on the floor did that then the whole room would be covered with tables. (a mess) And what if tastes change? Who updates the tables? (mess)
Anyhow despite sitting next to me and me asking and learning (F) his way of drinking coffee he brought me coffee instead of water (assuming not asking). I don't drink coffee at all. That would be a case that kind of makes me want to smack somebody how can one be so ignorant? The paranoid part of me of course thinks he did it on purpose. (not true though) After I pointed that out he remembered at least the difference between coffee and water. 

I guess that's a good example of it's the little things in life that bring pleasure and pain.


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