# The Most to Least Rebellious Myers-Briggs® Personality Types (What do you think?)



## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

*The Most to Least Rebellious Myers-Briggs® Personality Types*
BySusan Storm August 24, 2021

Some personality types are known for being extremely rebellious and independent, while others are more respectful of conventions and social norms. Today we’re taking a look at which types are most likely to seem like non-conformists, and which types are more likely to fit in with a group.

*What Does Rebellious Even Mean?*

According to the Cambridge Dictionary, “If someone is rebellious, they are difficult to control and do not behave in the way that is expected.”
Dictionary.com states that rebellion means, “resistance or defiance of any authority, control, or tradition.”

*Where is the Data for this Article From?*

These rankings are based on my own research and experiences as an MBTI® practitioner, as well as research based on case studies conducted in 1997 from “The Relationship Between MBTI® and Measures of Personality and Performance in Management Groups,” by J.W. Fleenor. The MBTI® Manual also has data related to the 16 Myers-Briggs personality types and their results on the CPI™ tool. This tool, The California Psychological Inventory Assessment, measures individuals on many different categories like Sociability, Self-acceptance, Independence, Self-control, Communality, and more. One of the things it measures is rebelliousness, dislike of conforming, and the propensity to have unconventional views. That is one of the sources where the data for this article is taken from. You can find out more by scrolling down to the sources section of this article.

Disclaimer: While this article may show trends (certain types tend to be more rebellious than others) it is by no means a prescription. Some types may experience particular situations that make them more or less rebellious, regardless of what type they are.

*Ranking the 16 Myers and Briggs Types from Most to Least Rebellious

#1 – The ENTP*
People who fit the ENTP personality type resist traditions and conformity, opting instead to experiment and look at situations from new angles. While some types try to stick within the established rules, ENTPs are always trying to look beyond them to see if there are any other more evolved ways of thinking. They enjoy playing with unconventional ideas, innovating, and testing information to see if it stands up against logical scrutiny. Rules and traditions are made to be questioned, and ENTPs enjoy playing devil’s advocate to any authority who tries to push their agenda on them. These types have mastered the art of debate and feel a flourish of gratification when they can win an argument against someone of a higher rank.

*#2 – The ENFP*
People who match the ENFP personality type are flexible and drawn to original and novel ideas and theories. Like their ENTP type-siblings, they enjoy innovating, experimenting, and questioning. Their vivid imagination allows them to think outside the bounds of tradition and question rules and societal norms. While they tend to be warm and engaging, they are more rebellious than many people realize. Their minds naturally question everything and they rather enjoy being non-conformist, different, and unconventional.

*#3 – The INTP*
According to a 1994 case study on personality and expressed values, NTPs scored higher than any other types on self-oriented individualism. INTPs care more about following after the truth and seeking out the answers to their questions than they care about obeying rules or “fitting in.” These types naturally generate questions, alternatives, and innovative ways of thinking. Because of this, they tend to appear rebellious or skeptical of authorities who insist in doing things “by the book.” INTPs are likely to shy away from people who don’t question things or who accept rules at face value.

*#4 – The ISTP*
ISTPs are naturally skeptical of societal constructs and social norms that are enforced on others. These types prefer to go it alone and forge their own way in life. According to a study on type and the CPI™ inventory (MBTI® Manual, pg. 354) ISTPs were often skeptical about others’ intentions. They also ranked as insisting on being themselves even if it caused friction. The beauty of the ISTP mindset is that because they aren’t easily drawn in by others’ charms and persuasions, they are able to see facts in a fairly unbiased way. They pride themselves on being realists, and their thinking side helps them to weigh lots of disparate information at a time to determine what’s true. While they are often rebellious, ISTPs can use this rebelliousness to discover truths that other types miss.

*#5 – The INFP*
INFPs may not seem like the cold, gruff rebels that you find in movies or novels. But these types are individualists all the way. In fact, according to a study in the MBTI® Manual, INFPs were one of the types most likely to see themselves as different, non-conventional, and non-conforming (MBTI® Manual, pg. 354). This makes sense when we understand how INFPs think. They naturally question social norms and traditions in order to be authentic and find out what is really true and right for them as a person. They’re often the types to speak out against injustice even if it makes them less popular. For the Introverted Feeling type, adherence to individual values will nearly always trump going along with the group.
*Read This Next: *Understanding INFP Rage

*#6 – The INTJ*
INTJs are driven to trailblaze new paths and discover new possibilities for the future. They are uninterested in sticking to tradition or maintaining social norms, which can make them seem rebellious. While they like structure and order, they are skeptical of authorities and enjoy being the leaders of their own lives. They aren’t afraid to play devil’s advocate or question authorities who don’t back up their claims with facts or sound logic. Rank means little to an INTJ, but vision and strategic capability mean everything. According to the MBTI® Manual, INTJs were simultaneously responsible and serious about their duties and obligations while insisting on being themselves even if it caused friction (MBTI® Manual, pg. 354).
*Read This Next:* 24 Signs That You’re an INTJ, the Strategist Personality Type

*#7 – The ESTP*
ESTPs know how to play well with others for the most part, but they don’t have an innate respect for authority in most cases. They know what authorities want to hear, but they’re more individualistic than many people realize. They often find bureaucratic rules and traditions to be silly and pointless. Doing their best work often means having freedom and being able to make shortcuts in order to make things more efficient. As a result, they have little patience for oversights, constraints, or being “managed.” They can play nicely until someone tightens the reigns on them a little too hard, and then they will lash out or undermine the authority in order to free themselves.

*#8 – The ENTJ*
Dominant and independent, ENTJs don’t want to take orders from anyone but themselves. While they may understand the logic for rank and bureaucracy, they tend to stay in middle-management positions for only so long before they’re ready to be in charge. These types like to run the show and will rebel against micro-managing or rules based on social niceties or superstitions. ENTJs don’t mind toying with new ideas, questioning traditions, or venturing out on their own even if it means going against the norm.

*#9 – The ISFP*
People who identify with the ISFP personality type are often sympathetic rebels. Unlike the gruff, brusque rebels of television shows, ISFPs are more likely to quietly rebel against authority. As introverted feeling types, ISFPs don’t care so much about getting group approval as they care about approving of themselves and having conviction in what they do. Doing what’s right on an individual level matters more to them than fitting in with the group. This can mean standing up to a bully in order to protect a misfit, protesting against corruption even if one’s own family doesn’t support the protest, or simply wearing a style that one’s own cultural group frowns upon. ISFPs need to be free to be themselves, and this can make them true rebels at heart.

*#10 – The ESFP*
Outgoing and free-spirited, people who identify with the ESFP type don’t like to be managed or controlled by others. While they have a strong drive to do well in life, they hate strict rules and regulations and will quickly change careers, relationships, or locations if they feel that they are being micro-managed or limited. ESFPs believe in sticking to their truth about what they believe is right for them and can seem rebellious and intense to people who are trying to control them or make them fit into a traditional mold.

*#11 – The INFJ*
INFJs know how to be warm and tactful, but they have an independent streak that can make them seem more rebellious than people would expect. In fact, according to the MBTI® Manual, INFJs score higher on Achievement via Independence than most other types. This means that they crave freedom and have no problem taking individual initiative. As introverted intuitives, INFJs feel an intense pull to follow their vision, even if it leads them down paths that are non-conformist or shocking to others. At the same time, these types crave harmonious relationships, so they often feel a push and pull between wanting to please others and wanting to follow their own unique path.
*Read This Next:* 24 Signs You’re an INFJ, the Mystic Personality Type

*#12 – The ENFJ*
ENFJs are visionaries in every sense of the word. And while they exude warmth and friendliness, they’re not afraid to speak out for their vision, even if it ruffles a few feathers. That said, they often spend a considerable amount of time crafting their words to make the highest impact and influence people towards their goals. These types want to make a good impression and they like to please others, but not at the expense of their values or their dreams.

*#13 – The ESTJ*
ESTJs aren’t exactly rebellious most of the time. In fact, according to the MBTI® Manual, these types rank higher than most other types on being conventional, fitting in, and working well within a structured, conservative setting (MBTI® Manual, pgs. 354 & 355). That said, if forced to work within an inefficient system, ESTJs don’t mind speaking up and pointing out discrepancies. They aren’t so fixated on authority that they’ll take orders from someone who doesn’t know what they’re doing. ESTJs are opinionated and they enjoy speaking their mind. Responsibility, good leadership, and logical thinking are key things they require in an authority. If the world is being run by someone who they see as illogical and incompetent, ESTJs will indeed rebel against that authority and go against the rules they see as infringing on their freedoms.

*#14 – The ISFJ*
ISFJs don’t exude a rebellious nature in most cases, but they have their own private rebellious fantasies. Many ISFJs I’ve spoken with have stated that although they tend to be rule-followers, they have often imagined themselves taking down irritating authorities with highly crafted, well-thought-out arguments. The shower seemed to be an ideal place for them to play out these rebellious scenarios and perfect their words. As introverted sensing types, ISFJs enjoy having their lives as comfortable and stable as possible and if someone is charge in wreaking havoc on that part of their lives they can become sarcastic and insubordinate as a way to defend themselves.

*#15 – The ISTJ*
When it comes to ISTJs, all the data points in favor of them not being particularly rebellious. According to the MBTI® Manual, ISTJs ranked highly on conforming to rules, seldom getting in trouble, suppressing hostile feelings, and appreciating convention and well-organized, predictable situations. That said, many ISTJs I’ve known in person have considered themselves rebels of a sort. While they may obey most rules, they are particular about their personal freedoms and their personal space. I know quite a few ISTJs, for example, who rebel against rules that infringe upon their personal beliefs, religious or otherwise. They may strike up a cause or protest in support of their values. While these types like a calm, tranquil life, my own experiences show that everyone does have an element of rebellion given the right circumstances.

*#16 – The ESFJ*
ESFJs crave a life filled with harmony and predictability. These types thrive on a steady routine and a peaceful, structured existence. Practical and friendly, they see the basis for most rules and will abide by most as long as they don’t violate a personal value. For example, I know one ESFJ who is an avid homeschooler and she’s made it very clear to me that if homeschooling ever became illegal she’d still do it regardless. When it comes to issues of right or wrong, almost everyone will break some rules to live in accordance with their ethics. That said, ESFJs tend to avoid conflict, and, according to the MBTI® Manual, they score high on Socialization. This means that, in comparison to the other Myers-Briggs personality types, they are conscientious, well-organized, easily conform to rules, and seldom get into trouble.

*Sources:*
The MBTI® Manual: A Guide to the Development and Use of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator®Instrument. Third Edition

Type and Authority TYPEtype, the New Zealand Application of Psychological Type

Journal of Psychological Type Volume 40, 1997









The Most to Least Rebellious Myers-Briggs® Personality Types


Some personality types are known for being extremely rebellious and independent, while others are more respectful of conventions and social norms. Today we’re taking a look at which types are most likely to seem like non-conformists, and which types are more likely to fit in with a group. Not...



www.psychologyjunkie.com


----------



## Ace Of Forests (Aug 22, 2021)

Doesn't make sense to me that XNFJs are so low. We use Ni and Ti to think about stuff super deep, even when we're wrong, then we like to argue about it. Like the whole point of being an XNFJ is to be unconventional and go against the grain of Te, so we're going to argue about your Te's data, it's just kind of what we do.


----------



## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

*Rebels without a cause*: ESTP, ISTP, ESFP, ENTP
*Rebels with a cause*: INFP, ENFP, ENFJ
*Rebels just to take the throne and anoint themself as "Supreme God Emperor*": ENTJ, (INTJ in their dreams)
*Would like to see themselves as rebels because they watched The Matrix* - INFJ, INTJ, INTP, ISFP
*"Die rebel scum!"* - ISTJ, ESTJ, (ENTJ post-rebellion)
*"They better not be expecting me to clean up after them..."* - ISFJ, ESFJ


----------



## Eset (Jun 7, 2016)

Hm.
I could use lateral logic here and apply Enneagram into the mix since Enneagram has clearly defined types which are rebellious and authority-abiding.

1 and 6 are the most authority-abiding types, unless we are speaking of CP 6.
Type 1 is commonly found in Ni, Si, and Te dom types.
Type 6 is commonly found in Si dom types, with the inclusion of ISTP and ISFP, and other types too, however excluding ESTP and ENTJ; they are the least 6.
We could say that ISTP, ISFP, INTJ, INFJ, ISTJ, ISFJ, ESTJ, and ENTJ are going to be the least rebellious if they are these Enneagram types, which they commonly are.

7 and 8 are the most rebellious types.
Type 7 is commonly found in Ne and Se dom types.
Type 8 is commonly found in Se and Te dom types, with the inclusion of ENTP, INTJ and ISTP.
We could say that ENTP, ENFP, ESTP, ESFP, ENTJ, ESTJ, ENTP, INTJ, and ISTP are going to be most rebellious if they are these Enneagram types, which they commonly are.

4 and 5 tend to lean more towards rebelliousness, however they don't actively resist authority as much as 7 and 8 does.
Type 4 is commonly found in Fi dom types, with the inclusion of INFJ and ENFP.
Type 5 is commonly found in Ti and Ni dom types, with the inclusion of ISTJ and ENTP.
We could say that INFP, ISFP, INFJ, ENFP, INTP, ISTP, INTJ, INFJ, ISTJ, and ENTP are going to learn towards rebelliousness if they are these Enneagram types, which they commonly are.

2 and 3 tend to learn more towards authority-abiding, however they do so with the intentions of gaining affection, love, and admiration by playing the "game".
Type 2 is commonly found in Fe dom types, with the inclusion of ISFJ.
Type 3 is commonly found in Te, Fe, and Se dom types, with the inclusion of ENTP and INTJ.
We could say that ENFJ, ESFJ, ISFJ, ENTJ, ESTJ, ESTP, ESFP, ENTP, and INTJ are going to learn towards authority-abiding if they are these Enneagram types, which they commonly are.

9 is rather in the middle, they both abide authority and are rebellious, or more like silently rebellious whilst abiding authority.
Type 9 is commonly found in Fi and Ti dom types, with the inclusion of INFJ and ISFJ.
We could say that INFP, ISFP, INTP, ISTP, INFJ, and ISFJ are going to be in the middle in terms of authority-abiding and rebelliousness if they are these Enneagram types, which they commonly are.

What does this mean? Well let's structure this.

ENTP 3: Slightly Authority-Abiding
ENTP 5: Slightly Rebellious
ENTP 7: Rebellious
ENTP 8: Rebellious

INTP 5: Slightly Rebellious
INTP 9: Neutral

ESFJ 2: Slightly Authority-Abiding
ESFJ 3: Slightly Authority-Abiding

ISFJ 1: Authority-Abiding
ISFJ 2: Slightly Authority-Abiding
ISFJ 6: Authority-Abiding
ISFJ 9: Neutral

ESTP 3: Slightly Authority-Abiding
ESTP 7: Rebellious
ESTP 8: Rebellious

ISTP 5: Slightly Rebellious
ISTP 6: Authority-Abiding
ISTP 8: Rebellious
ISTP 9: Neutral

ENFJ 2: Slightly Authority-Abiding
ENFJ 3: Slightly Authority-Abiding

INFJ 1: Authority-Abiding
INFJ 4: Slightly Rebellious
INFJ 5: Slightly Rebellious
INFJ 9: Neutral

ESFP 3: Slightly Authority-Abiding
ESFP 7: Rebellious
ESFP 8: Rebellious

ISFP 4: Slightly Rebellious
ISFP 6: Authority-Abiding
ISFP 9: Neutral

ENTJ 1: Authority-Abiding
ENTJ 3: Slightly Authority-Abiding
ENTJ 8: Rebellious

INTJ 1: Authority-Abiding
INTJ 3: Slightly Authority-Abiding
INTJ 5: Slightly Rebellious
INTJ 8: Rebellious

ENFP 4: Slightly Rebellious
ENFP 7: Rebellious

INFP 4: Slightly Rebellious
INFP 6: Authority-Abiding
INFP 9: Neutral

ESTJ 1: Authority-Abiding
ESTJ 3: Slightly Authority-Abiding
ESTJ 8: Rebellious

ISTJ 1: Authority-Abiding
ISTJ 5: Slightly Rebellious
ISTJ 6: Authority-Abiding

Further making sense of this.

ENTP: Mostly Rebellious
INTP: Mostly Neutral
ESFJ: Mostly Authority-Abiding
ISFJ: Mostly Authority-Abiding
ESTP: Mostly Rebellious
ISTP: Mixed
ENFJ: Mostly Authority-Abiding
INFJ: Mixed
ESFP: Mostly Rebellious
ISFP: Mixed
ENTJ: Mostly Authority-Abiding
INTJ: Mixed
ENFP: Mostly Rebellious
INFP: Mixed
ESTJ: Mostly Authority-Abiding
ISTJ: Mostly Authority-Abiding

I will now create a new ranking order for most to least Rebellious:

ENTP > ENFP > ESTP = ESFP > ISTP > INTP > INFJ > INTJ > ISFP = INFP > ENTJ = ESTJ > ESFJ = ENFJ > ISTJ > ISFJ

Ne > Se > Ti > Ni > Fi > Te > Fe > Si

Something along these lines.

478 seems to be the most Rebellious Tritype.
126 and 136 seems to be the most Authority-Abiding Tritypes.

That is all.


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

I thought ISxJ was going to be at the bottom of that list, and that ESxP would be higher.

INxJ and ISxP are accidently rebellious: off in a corner, doing their own thing, minding their own business, testing the limits of reality.

This brings me joy:


----------



## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

_Rolls eyes_


----------



## esfjgirl90 (Aug 26, 2021)

Interesting seeing ESFJ last on the list. Although I agree we want peace and harmony in general, I will also say that as an ESFJ if I feel really strongly about something, then I will very happily rebel. Openly, and without any care as to what anyone else thinks. My boundaries and peace of mind > anything external in my life


----------



## Clare_Bare (Apr 6, 2015)

It’s not that I rebel by intention.
I just do what I do … often by exceeding boundaries.


----------



## Sily (Oct 24, 2008)

INFP here. I hate going with the group. I hate being a team player. I don't think I have a problem expressing a view here at PerCafe that goes against the majority. Sometimes I rebel, because I want to set myself apart, from the group. I MUST stand "a" -- "part" from others here, or I'm not happy. For the most part tho, I think I'm a quiet rebeler. I don't think I make a big fuss, I just write what I want.


----------



## WraithOfNightmare (Jun 20, 2019)

INFP here. I have a slight problem with authority.


----------



## attic (May 20, 2012)

I think it depends a bit on what one mean with rebellious. In a way I think Fi and Ti... perhaps also Ni, is more important than Ne for example, as it is fueling diverting from the track, giving more motivation I think? When it does happen, it is not doing it for it's own sake, just when it makes sense to do so. But there is other sides to rebellious, like acting out, is something at least I associate with it to some extent, and there extroverted preferences might matter more... You could also think of it as rebellious subcultures, and then it gets complicated, because then you have the subgroup authority and the larger society's authority, and which does one follow? which one does one resist? An authority abiding person might follow the unspoken rules of their in-group, their little rebellious group for example, or the conspiracy theory networks, or the alternative environmentalist cultures etc.etc. and feel very rebellious, because they stand up against the out-group, but depending on how one ended up there and how much friction one has to endure with the rest of society, it might not be much about the psychology of the person.

I think of myself as having some aversion to authority, though I accept it when it makes sense to me (they know more, a role that makes things efficient), and I value democracy highly, and will bend my will to that often. But I have never really thought of myself as a rebel. Rebels... it seems to come with more ...noise, more showing and ...clashing. In my mind, a rebel when faced with say a person saying "you can't walk here!", will start an argument with the person, trying to win over them. If I though it was right to walk there and worth the risks, I would just walk past them, perhaps say something short in passing about why, alternatively walk around a bit and come back a few minutes later and do it when they didn't see, if it seemed better. This kind of thing happened more when I was a minor, when teachers and parents told me what to do, as nowadays, there aren't as many can'ts without repercussions like high fines, prison etc. I am self-preserving, I don't like the idea of getting in big debt, prison, getting badly beat up... I am not drawn to danger. I can risk some when I feel it is badly needed but I also think about all the things that will prevent me to do, and there are limits to what I want to sacrifice. So that might also be an aspect, not so tied to mbti, how drawn one is to danger, or avoid risk.

I have noticed I become more by the rule book when I have some authority myself, like here, or when I have been in some other position, that I lean more on rules then. I think I am a bit uncomfortable having power over people and so try to push it back to the rules, so it isn't really up to me.


----------



## Ecchi (Jun 26, 2018)

Hexigoon said:


> *Rebels without a cause*: ESTP, ISTP, ESFP, ENTP
> *Rebels with a cause*: INFP, ENFP, ENFJ
> *Rebels just to take the throne and anoint themself as "Supreme God Emperor*": ENTJ, (INTJ in their dreams)


But ESTP and ESFP have ENFJ and ENTJ inside them.

ESTP/ENFJ and ESFP/ENTJ are the same when you strip away outer differences.


----------



## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

Ecchi said:


> But ESTP and ESFP have ENFJ and ENTJ inside them.
> 
> ESTP/ENFJ and ESFP/ENTJ are the same when you strip away outer differences.


I do see similarities between those types when I've interacted with them, but there's also some rather big differences that would need to be striped down for them to seem like the same sort of person. But you bring up an interesting thought..

If I'm understanding this correctly, would that mean ISTP and INFJ are essentially the same person when stripped down (eh wow... that sounded wrong.) ?


----------



## Ecchi (Jun 26, 2018)

Hexigoon said:


> If I'm understanding this correctly, would that mean ISTP and INFJ are essentially the same person when stripped down (eh wow... that sounded wrong.) ?


yes

and I have a very specific cause: (tried to post on reddit but the subreddit I tried to post it on has very stupid rules that discourage / kill discussion)

*My number 1 hobby is comparing myself and others to fictional characters.* I like to recreate / simulate my favorite video game and anime moments with people.

In 2nd grade I did this with my friends as Sonic the Hedgehog characters. I had someone for Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, Rouge, and Eggman.

*I was Sonic. In fact I have the same MBTI as Sonic. (ESTP)

Rouge the Bat actually is ESTP as well. And I relate to both her and Sonic. Rouge is like my feminine side.*

Around the same time one of my siblings got me into anime. She showed me Cardcaptor Sakura. I grew up with several older sisters.

I didn't even know about MBTI until 10 years later so it gave me new insight about WHY I relate to Sonic and Rouge. Because they are the same MBTI as me.

Growing up with a bunch of older sisters is significant because it revealed to me my feminine side. I liked to try on the Halloween costumes of my sisters.

Fast forward to today and I enjoy comparing myself to anime/manga girls. *These are the ESTP girls I relate to the most:

Rio* (from Sekatsuyo) (was given the English title *"Wanna Be the Strongest in the World"*)
*Moon Young* (from *Girls of the Wild's*)
*Ryofu* (from Ikkitousen) (was given the English title *"Battle Vixens"*)
*Aki* (from *Whisper Me a Love Song*)









I even want to cosplay as them as a future project.

So, that is my main purpose for using MBTI. To compare people to fictional characters.

But tbh I am only interested in the MBTI of myself and the MBTI of women nowadays.

I even have a *list of which MBTI types I would consider marrying*. This is based on a combination of personal conversations with the types, fictional portrayals of the types, theoretical/hypothetical information found online, as well as asking other people which types they personally could see me with.

*If I can have it my way, why not do it based on type? After all I'm still going to be interacting with the other types.*

Priority 1: ENFJ, ESFP, ESTJ, ISTJ

Priority 2: ENFP

Priority 3: ENTJ, ENTP, ISTP

(Priority 1 seems like they would be the most compatible with me based on the different angles I looked at that are listed.)

*Remember that my first love is role playing anime and video game moments, so of course I want them to be the same type as characters if I can help it.

Don't try to discourage me from marrying someone based on type. You would be wasting your time doing so and there's nothing wrong about it. What I do is up to me, and I know how to distinguish between reality and fiction.

I just want your reaction to everything I said.

And, here's an ENFJ character I like: (Asuka from Senran Kagura)*


----------



## Azmar (Jan 3, 2021)

tanstaafl28 said:


> *The Most to Least Rebellious Myers-Briggs® Personality Types*
> BySusan Storm August 24, 2021
> 
> Some personality types are known for being extremely rebellious and independent, while others are more respectful of conventions and social norms. Today we’re taking a look at which types are most likely to seem like non-conformists, and which types are more likely to fit in with a group.
> ...


1.ESTP
2.ISTP
3.ESFP
4.ISFP
5.INTJ
6.ENTJ
7.ENTP
8.INTP
9.INFJ
10.ENFJ
11.ENFP
12.INFP
13.ESFJ
14.ISFJ
15.ESTJ
16.ISTJ

Ranking in temperaments:
1.SP
2.NT
3.NF
4.SJ


----------



## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

Ecchi said:


> yes
> 
> and I have a very specific cause: (tried to post on reddit but the subreddit I tried to post it on has very stupid rules that discourage / kill discussion)
> 
> ...


I do understand all all that, I kinda do the same sorta thing, maybe just to a more limited extent. So it's cool to hear that.
I've roleplayed with others quite a lot online, even on here sometimes, and that's been as both female and male characters too. It's fun. I've wanted to cosplay as some female characters as well before, but only really if I could actually pull it off convincingly, so I get that.
I agree that it's usually best to roleplay as characters you're the same type as (or at least as your sibbling type). It's just more easier to appear authentic to your character that way.


Actually on this subject, one thing I've always felt was missing on PerC was a roleplay subforum. Many forums I've been on had something like that, it kinda surprises me PerC lacks it considering it's a personality forum.
.

But no, I wouldn't tell you who to marry, that is your decision, I would just recommend not to let typology close off your options is all. You may find some individual outside of those types who'd actually be very good for you.


----------



## Ecchi (Jun 26, 2018)

@Hexigoon That was aimed at the ENFJ subreddit, where I originally tried to post it. I posted the exact contents of it as I wrote it for reddit.

Still, marriage should be to someone that you enjoy the most. And what I enjoy the most is specific types.

You can still interact with other types that you're not married to.


----------



## Queen of Cups (Feb 26, 2010)

tanstaafl28 said:


> so they often feel a push and pull between wanting to please others and wanting to follow their own unique path.


Pretty much. I will do things to keep the peace, but when I rebel, I'll burn down the entire village and salt the earth. lol 
Generally when something triggers my sense of justice (or injustice) or crosses a personal boundary.


----------



## Ace Of Forests (Aug 22, 2021)

Ecchi said:


> yes
> 
> and I have a very specific cause: (tried to post on reddit but the subreddit I tried to post it on has very stupid rules that discourage / kill discussion)
> 
> ...


You're adorable, and yes, I've been in relationships with people interested in cosplay/roleplaying, and it's extremely easy for me to get into it. Your logic looks sound to me.

The last relationship I had with a cosplayer was gender fluid, and they loved how adaptable I was. It takes some getting used to, even for ENFJs, but your hunch is right, ENFJs are a great place to look for acceptance for what makes you happy.


----------



## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

Hexigoon said:


> *Rebels without a cause*: ESTP, ISTP, ESFP, ENTP
> *Rebels with a cause*: INFP, ENFP, ENFJ
> *Rebels just to take the throne and anoint themself as "Supreme God Emperor*": ENTJ, (INTJ in their dreams)
> *Would like to see themselves as rebels because they watched The Matrix* - INFJ, INTJ, INTP, ISFP
> ...


While funny for ENTJ, not exactly. Moreso:

Either do your job properly or your job is mine, 'cause right now, you're as useless as tits on a bull.


----------



## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Dalien said:


> Jung’s 12 archetypes
> View attachment 885919
> 
> I have not read it.
> ...


Ohhhhhh! For some reason I read it as an Enneagram thing. 

Apparently, I'm a Sage. 

The Sage puts a premium on learning, using *their methodical and objective nature* to understand the world. You can often find them bettering themselves reading books, taking classes, or debating a concept. This archetype always seeks to find the truth by using their sharp mind to sift through the noise.

Their main fear is being misled or realizing that they are ignorant of a topic. Since the Sage lives in their head, they frequently *get stuck overthinking*. Sometimes they're all study and no action, but generally, their *wisdom and intelligence* shines through.


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

tanstaafl28 said:


> Ohhhhhh! For some reason I read it as an Enneagram thing.
> 
> Apparently, I'm a Sage.
> 
> ...


Sage is pretty nice. Great for clearing negative energy from the room. 

I am...

*Reishi, Passionflower, and Eucalyptus!*
These herbal archetypes are a playful way to remember your plant allies and inspire a deeper connection to these powerful beings. Learn more about your plant personality below.

GROUNDED•VISIONARY•OPEN-MINDED









What's your Plant Personality? | Traditional Medicinals


This fun and approachable quiz offers insight into ourselves and the people around us, along with a touch of herbal wisdom on how to make our lives easier as our Plant Personality “type.” %




www.traditionalmedicinals.com


----------



## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Since we’ve made our way to archetypes…
this is from @nonnaci which the link is posted in his signature








archetypes – philosophy maps


Posts about archetypes written by nonnaci




philosophymaps.wordpress.com


----------



## X10E8 (Apr 28, 2021)

Dalien said:


> This part of your message—ENTJ vs ESTP—what does it have to do with rebel?


ENTJ-ESTP whose more rebellious get a gist from watching the video.


----------



## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

X10E8 said:


> ENTJ-ESTP whose more rebellious get a gist from watching the video.


That is almost an hour and a half long. I don’t have time for that. Why don’t you tell.


----------



## X10E8 (Apr 28, 2021)

Dalien said:


> That is almost an hour and a half long. I don’t have time for that. Why don’t you tell.


I believe that watching people in interview videos is the best method to study typology and become more familiar with their personality type and how rebellious they are; reading about them is fine, but watching a interview about them is even better. It's preferable to watch the video than to read a long text explanation from me. I'm also really busy; I'm texting you in the middle of work, so I won't be able to explain everything. I wish I could reply to all the posts on my threads, but I just don't get the time unfortunately, so I just read it.


----------



## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

X10E8 said:


> I believe that watching people in interview videos is the best method to study typology and become more familiar with their personality type and how rebellious they are; reading about them is fine, but watching a interview about them is even better. It's preferable to watch the video than to read a long text explanation from me. I'm also really busy; I'm texting you in the middle of work, so I won't be able to explain everything. I wish I could reply to all the posts on my threads, but I just don't get the time unfortunately, so I just read it.


Well since you watched—explain how they are rebels and why.


----------



## X10E8 (Apr 28, 2021)

Dalien said:


> Well since you watched—explain how they are rebels and why.


Nah, just watch the video; it would be wasteful of my time to explain the entire interview to you. it's not Te energy efficient for me to explain to you the whole interview.

Simply increase the speed of the movie to X1.5.

Watching interviews rather than reading about typology is a better approach to learn about it. Reading about is also beneficial.


----------



## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

X10E8 said:


> Nah, just watch the video; it would be wasteful of my time to explain the entire interview to you. it's not Te energy efficient for me to explain to you the whole interview.
> 
> Simply increase the speed of the movie to X1.5.
> 
> Watching interviews rather than reading about typology is a better approach to learn about it. Reading about is also beneficial.


If you can't explain something then don't post it. 
You can't expect anybody here to have more than 15 minutes to spend on any given video unless you can post time frames to watch in. Also, moderators have to be able to view video clips if they are reported for any reason.


----------



## X10E8 (Apr 28, 2021)

beth x said:


> If you can't explain something then don't post it.
> You can't expect anybody here to have more than 15 minutes to spend on any given video unless you can post time frames to watch in. Also, moderators have to be able to view video clips if they are reported for any reason.


Oh ok, I don't expect anyone to watch it, watching the video is completely optional, I was just hinting to it.


----------



## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

X10E8 said:


> I believe that watching people in interview videos is the best method to study typology and become more familiar with their personality type and how rebellious they are; reading about them is fine, but watching a interview about them is even better. It's preferable to watch the video than to read a long text explanation from me. I'm also really busy; I'm texting you in the middle of work, so I won't be able to explain everything. I wish I could reply to all the posts on my threads, but I just don't get the time unfortunately, so I just read it.


Oh, I prefer informal conversations. I learn so much just by chit-chatting about whatever. Watching your body language, listening to your words, seeing the gestures, looking deep into your eyes. 
All that helps me far more than formal interviews. People can be so stiff and fake in interviews. Get them in an informal setting and find out what really makes them tick! That's my style. 

Addendum: When I find out what you're really passionate/enthusiastic about, that's when things really get interesting for me!


----------



## X10E8 (Apr 28, 2021)

tanstaafl28 said:


> Oh, I prefer informal conversations. I learn so much just by chit-chatting about whatever. Watching your body language, listening to your words, seeing the gestures, looking deep into your eyes.
> All that helps me far more than formal interviews. People can be so stiff and fake in interviews. Get them in an informal setting and find out what really makes them tick! That's my style.
> 
> Addendum: When I find out what you're really passionate/enthusiastic about, that's when things really get interesting for me!


People are more relaxed in informal settings, and you may get a better sense of who they are when they are not under pressure. People prefer to put up a defensive wall in formal contexts to maintain their status quo, lest they be regarded less. The more well-rounded folks, on the other hand, may still do well in formal contexts because they know how to be vulnerable yet also assertive or confident. Formal interviews, on the other hand, are still a bit of a challenge.

Joyce Meng's Ph.D. INFJ- her interviews are largely casual, and the people she interviews are generally well-rounded or mature. Individuals that are open to talking about their thoughts and feelings, their experiences.

Joyce Meng, Ph.D. is a great interviewer who can bring even the most protective and stiff people out of their shells by making them feel safe, accepted, and comfortable. Her YouTube channel is one of my favourites. For my typology research.


----------



## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

I don't think MBTI types have a "most to least rebellious" types, it doesn't make sense to have a series of cognitive preferences to filter through perception and come to a similar result of multiple other types in the act. 

Out of the band of misfits in any group wanting to resist, you will have different types wanting a similar outcome. The act - of rebellion, they will simply go about it differently. It won't make them any more or less rebellious it will simply make you look at the route they took to do it.

I do think there might be more rebellious (reactive) Enneagram types though.


----------



## X10E8 (Apr 28, 2021)

beth x said:


> I don't think MBTI types have a "most to least rebellious" types, it doesn't make sense to have a series of cognitive preferences to filter through perception and come to a similar result of multiple other types in the act.
> 
> Out of the band of misfits in any group wanting to resist, you will have different types wanting a similar outcome. The act - of rebellion, they will simply go about it differently. It won't make them any more or less rebellious it will simply make you look at the route they took to do it.
> 
> I do think there might be more rebellious (reactive) Enneagram types though.


I'm not convinced by the MBTI rebellious scale. But I've noticed that the strongest or fittest are always able to rebel and get away with it for some reason. ESTPs can be inappropriate but still get away with it for some reason.

Almost everything in society is ruled by the strongest, fittest, or most brilliant individuals. So it's no surprise that these people will do whatever they want because nothing can stop them from achieving their goals.

Of course, doing whatever you want does not imply that you are a crazy pychopathic; most people are decent people to a certain extent. The most rebellious are those who come from broken households or have had a poor upbringing and it will take them a lot longer to grow up and mature.

With enneagram I agree. ISFJs tend to be more compliant types. Just going along with what everyone else is doing.


----------



## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

X10E8 said:


> I'm not convinced by the MBTI rebellious scale. But I've noticed that the strongest or fittest are always able to rebel and get away with it for some reason. ESTPs can be inappropriate but still get away with it for some reason.
> 
> Almost everything in society is ruled by the strongest, fittest, or most brilliant individuals. So it's no surprise that these people will do whatever they want because nothing can stop them from achieving their goals.
> 
> ...


No. We aren't "ruled" by strong, brilliant or the fittest people. We are governed by people interested in how power works to get their interests met either that, or they are just lucky enough to be born into privilege.

We have a lot of psychopaths in power and a lot more who come from money and are born into having power. Exhibit A would be the second-born son of a racist slum lord who inherited billions and then went on to become president and tried to retain his power by inciting his base to break laws in an insurrection. Exhibit B would be any monarchy, where you can have a son embroiled in paedophilia scandals, marry your cousin, let cousins die and let other start a war, have a Nazi in their ranks and still have the love of millions as a family. Exhibit C you could have just been lucky enough to get voted into parliament on a safe seat and have your interests multiplied by branch stacking and make deals that give your church millions in the name of the people you are governing even though in the last Census only 50% even believed in god (let alone follow your denomination).

Being born into privilege means that you've never had to compete for food in your family, worn a hand me down jumper and been called "tip boy" at school because your parents don't wash your clothes because they are too occupied being hooked on crack because reality is way too hard for them to deal with. Being born into privilege is not being able to see those people who you are supposed to be representing. Having that privilege gives you something of a lift to get anywhere you want, like a golden ticket to make money and more privilege for a select few who are have the other golden tickets.

Those who are privileged enough to be able to be seen to get away with it are just lucky. They are lucky they aren't of colour, or be poor or a female, or a trans or gay.

ESTPs can be upfront kind of people, but not necessarily rebellious. ISFJs can be more measured in the way they go about things. There was one here a while ago I used to chat to who could hold her own in an argument and not back down even when there were heaps of INTJs talking to her. Never underestimate a type when they want to get a point across.

Edit to add anecdotal ramble about conflict:

I've been dealing with conflict here for over 7 years, I've created conflict here, I've calmed it and I've shut it down in one way or another and I've had to face off with quite an amount of pushback from people from most of the different types there are. Sometimes the appearance of strength can be hilarious to watch and other times, a serious pain in the arse, and sometimes there has been cause for me to pull my head in and agree with the people I'm in conflict with. 

When it comes to types and the perception of weakness or the perception of strength sometimes you have to look at what your own weaknesses are and where your own strengths are to be able to see others for the awesome other hidden strengths and hidden multiple intelligences they might have. This includes the ISTJs who are supposed to be the "inspector", or the INFPs who are supposed to be dreamers and the ISFJs who are supposed to be somehow meek. To be on here and put up with people saying how great intuitives are or how lame sensors sometimes give you a laugh when they are told how wrong they are and in so many different badarsed ways.


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

beth x said:


> If you can't explain something then don't post it.
> You can't expect anybody here to have more than 15 minutes to spend on any given video unless you can post time frames to watch in. Also, moderators have to be able to view video clips if they are reported for any reason.


I see no reason to be coming down on this. X10E8 already said why they thought the video is relevant. Why not leave it to the reader to decide whether or not they are interested in watching?


----------



## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Squirt said:


> I see no reason to be coming down on this. X10E8 already said why they thought the video is relevant. Why not leave it to the reader to decide whether or not they are interested in watching?


I say to anyone who has a video that it's your words that matter as this is a forum for discussion on personality. I've also been in the position on here where people are telling me to watch something they think is relevant to the discussion and find it's the height of rudeness to quote you and expect you to reply to something that will take an hour out of your life when it might not even get to the point in the first 5 minutes. My response is always going to be "fuck that" and I will stand by anyone who says "fuck that" also. If you can't back it up by explaining it, it's probably not going to stand up in the discussion in the first place.


I've also had to get rid of some videos just because I've not had the time to see if they might have something that we don't allow as a mod too. It's a discussion board rather than a video uploading site. I've had to sit through some horrible videos. I still have images burned into my retina of girls being immolated and headless people and people screaming their racist opinions through youtube. But that's an aside. It's not only that it's kinda rude to expect people to watch something in a discussion that might run a long time but also sometimes a mod's bane.


----------



## X10E8 (Apr 28, 2021)

beth x said:


> No. We aren't "ruled" by strong, brilliant or the fittest people. We are governed by people interested in how power works to get their interests met either that, or they are just lucky enough to be born into privilege.
> 
> We have a lot of psychopaths in power and a lot more who come from money and are born into having power. Exhibit A would be the second-born son of a racist slum lord who inherited billions and then went on to become president and tried to retain his power by inciting his base to break laws in an insurrection. Exhibit B would be any monarchy, where you can have a son embroiled in paedophilia scandals, marry your cousin, let cousins die and let other start a war, have a Nazi in their ranks and still have the love of millions as a family. Exhibit C you could have just been lucky enough to get voted into parliament on a safe seat and have your interests multiplied by branch stacking and make deals that give your church millions in the name of the people you are governing even though in the last Census only 50% even believed in god (let alone follow your denomination).
> 
> ...


That's a fantastically expanded explanation there! Every type appears to be unique and cool in their own way. I'm not sure why you start every conversation with a No. It's as if you're having a debate with me or something. But then your not debating but just explaining.

ESTPs have Ti and are usually correct in what they say. Of course, Ti can be incorrect at times, but it is typically extremely accurate, which I enjoy.

Te users are more concerned with effectiveness than with logic or structure, so as long as it works, we'll just go with it. Ti users are adored by Te users.

Users of Ti are more interested with being seen as the brightest, whereas Te users are more concerned with prestige. Both, on the other hand, want both. High Ti users are frequently the pioneers of new technologies and breakthroughs.

Personally, I am unconcerned about being regarded as brilliant or intelligent. I enjoy having status and skill, but it isn't something I stress over. I'm more concerned about other people's well-being; I don't mind disputes as long as they don't get aggressive or people start calling each other stupid; this isn't a competition for me; it's more like advising or counselling someone or just playing with them intellectually to learn something new.


----------



## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

X10E8 said:


> There's a fantastically expanded explanation there! Every type appears to be unique and cool in their own way. I'm not sure why you start every conversation with a No. It's as if you're having a debate with me or something. But then your not debating but just explaining.
> 
> ESTPs have Ti and are usually correct in what they say. Of course, Ti can be incorrect at times, but it is typically extremely accurate, which I enjoy.
> 
> ...


I don't start every conversation with a no. I sometimes say yes, or probably or something else. I think perhaps you might be reading my reply as something against you rather than me just being interested in the mechanics of the way different types think (plus adding me telling you off a little for using avideo instead of using words into the discussion rather than it being a separate thing).

I don't think cognitive functions have inclinations or feelings towards anything either. They are filters in the way we process information rather than separate entities. If you see a pair you might have an inclination on how they might process the information they see.


----------



## X10E8 (Apr 28, 2021)

Squirt said:


> I see no reason to be coming down on this. X10E8 already said why they thought the video is relevant. Why not leave it to the reader to decide whether or not they are interested in watching?


That's an excellent point; I was thinking the same thing. People can always check it out, it's totally optional; Joyce Mengs' channel is of excellent quality, so there's nothing inflammatory or rude on there; it's one of my favourite YouTube channels for understanding typology. Anyway thank you for pointing that out and validating my point. I really appreciate it.


----------



## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Squirt said:


> I see no reason to be coming down on this. X10E8 already said why they thought the video is relevant. Why not leave it to the reader to decide whether or not they are interested in watching?


She did not do this with me, when I asked her to explain what the vid was about. Except to tell watching is a better way to learn. So, if someone can’t or even feels that they won’t learn more—everyone has different styles of learning. Where is common courtesy? I wasn’t even responding anymore to her—she said no. Then I came in this am and the conversation went further and I wasn’t in it. So now I’m going to speak my peace.



X10E8 said:


> Nah, just watch the video; it would be wasteful of my time to explain the entire interview to you. it's not Te energy efficient for me to explain to you the whole interview.
> 
> Simply increase the speed of the movie to X1.5.
> 
> Watching interviews rather than reading about typology is a better approach to learn about it. Reading about is also beneficial.





X10E8 said:


> That's an excellent point; I was thinking the same thing. People can always check it out, it's totally optional; Joyce Mengs' channel is of excellent quality, so there's nothing inflammatory or rude on there; it's one of my favourite YouTube channels for understanding typology. Anyway thank you for pointing that out and validating my point. I really appreciate it.


I expressed that I didn’t have time to watch it and I still don’t. I have a life outside of this place—work and things to do. I, also, have mod duties—this entails not sitting on our asses twiddling our thumbs—it takes up a lot of our time. Why people can’t respect a simple request, I don’t know. It would be a courtesy for you to give a recap—no one asked you to give a blow by blow recount. 

If you post long videos, be prepared to explain/give your opinion on what you post. I’m not the first to ask another to explain their video—I’ve seen it many times and most do. If you choose not, ok, but are you really a member of this forum (PerC)? I see that you say you want people to learn themselves, but *you are learning through us*—actually, this (in bold) is your bottom line.


----------



## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Since this thread has gone a bit off, here’s a true Rebel for ya…


----------



## X10E8 (Apr 28, 2021)

Dalien said:


> She did not do this with me, when I asked her to explain what the vid was about. Except to tell watching is a better way to learn. So, if someone can’t or even feels that they won’t learn more—everyone has different styles of learning. Where is common courtesy? I wasn’t even responding anymore to her—she said no. Then I came in this am and the conversation went further and I wasn’t in it. So now I’m going to speak my peace.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeahh, I'm learning from you, well, I guess online learning is the future of school, I'm basically intellectually playing with you by pinging back and forth every time, and I'm gaining fresh perspectives from you every time.

And I've discovered that certain of my activities seem to irritate you or drive you insane. I don't see anything wrong with it from a moral standpoint. You have Ti right, so your obsessed with me being accurate about everything. but I have Fi so I care about being authentic, if you know what I'm saying. I probably won't be able to meet your Ti expectations.

No moderator/nonmoderator tells me "you better fucking give me the explanations" They simply read the video's title and roll with it. When I post a video on Facebook or Discord. They simply watch it and hit like. But here it's all just weird/confusing Lol🤧🤷‍♀️. Your a cool person Dalien but I kind of don't get where your going with this........


----------



## Ecchi (Jun 26, 2018)

I think every type is equally rebellious tbh but the place where they direct their rebellious energies is different so it can go unnoticed.

And the place they direct it is influenced by Enneagram and Instinctual Variant.


----------



## KindaSnob! (Nov 15, 2020)

I think ISFP one is pretty accurate. At least for me.


----------



## Ewok City (Sep 21, 2020)

@KindaSnob! You're back!! 😳 It's good to have you again here.

Welcome back! I hope you have been well. 😄


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

beth x said:


> I say to anyone who has a video that it's your words that matter as this is a forum for discussion on personality. I've also been in the position on here where people are telling me to watch something they think is relevant to the discussion and find it's the height of rudeness to quote you and expect you to reply to something that will take an hour out of your life when it might not even get to the point in the first 5 minutes. My response is always going to be "fuck that" and I will stand by anyone who says "fuck that" also. If you can't back it up by explaining it, it's probably not going to stand up in the discussion in the first place.


I don’t have this prejudice. I’ve enjoyed a few long videos that have been posted here and the discussions generated from them, without demanding someone explain everything about the video to me before I was willing to check it out. So, if this is some unspoken rule about how to have discussions, it seems highly biased and I don’t want the possibility stripped over this opinion.

I find it ironic to say it is about respecting people’s time… as if there is something mandatory about participation. It seems like the exchange between Dalien and X10E8 requesting what they want and what they are willing to give can be done respectfully, as long as no one feels entitled to the other’s participation.

Of course, anything can be taken to an extreme… like Rift’s 10 videos in a row posts with no explanation. I did say something about that, at one point.



beth x said:


> I've also had to get rid of some videos just because I've not had the time to see if they might have something that we don't allow as a mod too. It's a discussion board rather than a video uploading site. I've had to sit through some horrible videos. I still have images burned into my retina of girls being immolated and headless people and people screaming their racist opinions through youtube. But that's an aside. It's not only that it's kinda rude to expect people to watch something in a discussion that might run a long time but also sometimes a mod's bane.


This is a reasonable complaint. A summary of the purpose of the video and context for it would make it easier to determine if it is spam/inappropriate or not.

Though, X10E8 stating that it was an interview that could illustrate the differences between two types and how they show rebelliousness seemed adequate for that purpose.


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Dalien said:


> She did not do this with me, when I asked her to explain what the vid was about. Except to tell watching is a better way to learn. So, if someone can’t or even feels that they won’t learn more—everyone has different styles of learning. Where is common courtesy? I wasn’t even responding anymore to her—she said no. Then I came in this am and the conversation went further and I wasn’t in it.


I took issue with the idea that people shouldn’t post long videos at all unless they distill it for everyone first, in general, as put forward by beth. I didn’t see you making that case, so I saw no need to involve you (like you said, the inquiry was over).


----------



## impulsenine (Oct 18, 2020)

It's not type related. It's something beyond the boundaries of type. 
Up to 3% are rebels.
Of which 2% are ineffective and 1% are sheriffs on rebellion.


----------



## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Squirt said:


> I don’t have this prejudice. I’ve enjoyed a few long videos that have been posted here and the discussions generated from them, without demanding someone explain everything about the video to me before I was willing to check it out. So, if this is some unspoken rule about how to have discussions, it seems highly biased and I don’t want the possibility stripped over this opinion.
> 
> I find it ironic to say it is about respecting people’s time… as if there is something mandatory about participation. It seems like the exchange between Dalien and X10E8 requesting what they want and what they are willing to give can be done respectfully, as long as no one feels entitled to the other’s participation.
> 
> ...


I don't mind if you don't have a prejudice (what an odd word to use here) about basic forum discussion etiquette. If you have a lengthy clip, don't put it in a discussion with no explanation (there wasn't an explanation as to what it was until it was queried) as to what it is, and don't expect anyone to have the time to watch it. When you are using props - that's what these links and videos are - they are your words, they are your input.


----------



## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

Squirt said:


> I took issue with the idea that people shouldn’t post long videos at all unless they distill it for everyone first, in general, as put forward by beth. I didn’t see you making that case, so I saw no need to involve you (like you said, the inquiry was over).


Posting videos is also a way to harvest member canvas fingerprints. Just insert a script on youtube. With this in mind, expect requests for summaries since not all members want to be fingerprinted or pseudo-psychoanalyzed.


----------



## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

X10E8 said:


> Yeahh, I'm learning from you, well, I guess online learning is the future of school, I'm basically intellectually playing with you by pinging back and forth every time, and I'm gaining fresh perspectives from you every time.
> 
> And I've discovered that certain of my activities seem to irritate you or drive you insane. I don't see anything wrong with it from a moral standpoint. You have Ti right, so your obsessed with me being accurate about everything. but I have Fi so I care about being authentic, if you know what I'm saying. I probably won't be able to meet your Ti expectations.
> 
> No moderator/nonmoderator tells me "you better fucking give me the explanations" They simply read the video's title and roll with it. When I post a video on Facebook or Discord. They simply watch it and hit like. But here it's all just weird/confusing Lol🤧🤷‍♀️. Your a cool person Dalien but I kind of don't get where your going with this........


Wow! I got you to give your opinion. I’m thinking that you don’t understand that when I post on threads I’m Dalien and not a mod. And, I’ll damn site let people know when I’m in mod mode—all of this is how I roll. None of these posts with you are in mod mode. I can and do separate the two; even though, with you I expressed that modding takes up a lot of time—goes with working and doing life also expressed. This was to explain to you why I didn’t want to watch a very long (1 1/2 hrs.) video and if you would give me explanation/opinion on it. You’re final answer was no. I had accepted that.

I expressed about common courtesy, so where does “you fucking better give me the explanations” come from? Really, you’re claiming that of me. Wow, just wow! I think your the one that has a problem with me.

Someone else comes along later and you’re a bit expressive about the video with them. Yep, that made me go—wtf? That’s when I came back deciding to say something expressing why.

I’m INFJ—Ni, Fe, Ti, Se according to MBTI. The way I process information is not Ti first—the dominant.

Well, this is not Facebook or Discord—it is a niche place and communication is more intimate here where what’s posted shows it’s face longer. We discuss things and is more detailed—I’m confident in saying this, because I go all over Perc and see it constantly and have FB and been on discord.

Something else—I was genuinely curious when you posted the video. I don’t ask an explanation/opinion of someone to be a bitch or anything else.

I wasn’t peeved before, nor going insane, but right now because you’re saying that I fucking demanded something of you I’m feeling a touch of being irked. Yet, it’s not enough irk to be a real bitch about it (even if, there is a possibility that you think I am.) No one here has ever seen me be the bitch that I can be—it’s not pretty and I don’t like it none myself and it is even rare offline. I will stand up for myself if need be as everyone else.

I‘ve probably given you too much information here. Doesn’t that tell you something? I think you’re alright.
And, thanks for thinking I’m cool. I’m just Dalien.


----------



## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

If I were a mod on PerC, I'd be very, very careful about clicking on any link. Once you're canvas fingerprinted, you can be stalked across the Interwebs. Oh and lest we forget, it's easy to harvest IP addresses from PerC members.


----------



## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

impulsenine said:


> It's not type related. It's something beyond the boundaries of type.
> Up to 3% are rebels.
> Of which 2% are ineffective and 1% are sheriffs on rebellion.


Where did you get these numbers?


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

mia-me said:


> Posting videos is also a way to harvest member canvas fingerprints. Just insert a script on youtube. With this in mind, expect requests for summaries since not all members want to be fingerprinted or pseudo-psychoanalyzed.


Do you use Tor and/or a VPN? Ah, nevermind. This is getting so far off topic. 

… or is it?


----------



## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

Squirt said:


> Do you use Tor and/or a VPN? Ah, nevermind. This is getting so far off topic.
> 
> … or is it?


Yes.


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Squirt said:


> This is where any type could potentially be rebellious in different ways/under different conditions, as already mentioned.
> 
> View attachment 885881
> 
> ...


Introversion probably doesn't necessarily entail this stereotypical "bad boy"-ish vibe for all cases, if that was implied, yes.
I was going from the definitions in the OP post :


> “If someone is rebellious, they are difficult to control and do not behave in the way that is expected.”
> Dictionary.com states that rebellion means, “resistance or defiance of any authority, control, or tradition.”


And such a trait is quite consistent with what introversion theoretically is.
Further from extraversion => less receptive to the external => fewer variables to leverage on for prediction or controlling the subject's mind.
And I don't think rational/irrational plays much of a role here. Rather it just sets the flavor of opposition.


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

mia-me said:


> Yes.


I really wanted to post a gif of skeletor shouting “curses!”, but I’m afraid you’d never see it. 😢


----------



## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

Squirt said:


> I really wanted to post a gif of skeletor shouting “curses!”, but I’m afraid you’d never see it.


An accurate analysis. People need to stop being so damn nosy since the more they invade, the less info they get.


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

I've always been rebellious and at times slightly anti-social in childhood, doesn't matter who it was. I used to scold adults a lot when I was a kid lmao.


----------



## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

How true is this?
The Rebel


> The rebel is a transgressor. They provoke people and don’t care at all about other people’s opinions. As a result, they like going against the grain and thinking for themselves. They don’t like to be pressured or influenced. The negative side to the rebel archetype is that they can become self-destructive.





https://exploringyourmind.com/twelve-jungian-archetypes/


----------



## KindaSnob! (Nov 15, 2020)

mia-me said:


> If I were a mod on PerC, I'd be very, very careful about clicking on any link. Once you're canvas fingerprinted, you can be stalked across the Interwebs. Oh and lest we forget, it's easy to harvest IP addresses from PerC members.


I didn't know that things like canvas fingerprint existed... what a creepy thing to do...


----------



## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Allostasis said:


> I've always been rebellious and at times slightly anti-social in childhood, doesn't matter who it was. I used to scold adults a lot when I was a kid lmao.


I was always rebellious too. People would say I was a firebrand or a free spirit. I think it might be related to being an 8 rather than being INTJ.


----------



## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

KindaSnob! said:


> I didn't know that things like canvas fingerprint existed... what a creepy thing to do...


Yes. There's all sorts of fingerprinting, never mind the HTML5 hash. Suit up, if you value your privacy. And don't just settle for one VPN. Alternate between multiple paid and free VPNs, Tor, etc, never mind assorted browser protections and other ways to mitigate invasive assholery.


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Allostasis said:


> Introversion probably doesn't necessarily entail this stereotypical "bad boy"-ish vibe for all cases, if that was implied, yes.
> I was going from the definitions in the OP post :
> 
> And such a trait is quite consistent with what introversion theoretically is.
> ...


Would being more receptive to external, objective criteria really translate to less rebelliousness, though?

Jung says it does:

“The moral laws governing his actions coincide with the demands of society, that is, with the prevailing moral standpoint. If this were to change, the extravert’s subjective moral guidelines would change accordingly, without this altering his general psychological habits in any way.” -Psychological Types 

However, I’m thinking of the Emperor’s New Clothes. Was the child that revealed the charade at the end showing an introverted or extraverted attitude? Wasn’t it an act of rebellion to break the spell and point out the reality of the current situation? Or would it just be considered that way because the child was ignorant of the “prevailing view”?

What am I missing here…


----------



## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

I'm fine with objective authority that treats everyone equally with clear cut rules and guidelines. My problems are with subjective, biased and/or incompetent authority.


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Squirt said:


> Would being more receptive to external, objective criteria really translate to less rebelliousness, though?
> 
> Jung says it does:
> 
> ...


This can be interpreted as a clash between two extraverted judgments rather than attitudes if we do want to put this tale into a typological context. 
Both were based on certain independent "reality"—the observable one and the stupid one.


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Dalien said:


> How true is this?
> The Rebel
> 
> 
> ...


True in relation to what though? Haven't read the book about 12 archetypes yet.


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

beth x said:


> I was always rebellious too. People would say I was a firebrand or a free spirit. I think it might be related to being an 8 rather than being INTJ.


Yes, that specific behavioral profile is best illustrated by 8. With the psychological types, I view rebellion mostly conceptually, without assuming anything about its outward manifestation.


----------



## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Allostasis said:


> Yes, that specific behavioral profile is best illustrated by 8. With the psychological types, I view rebellion mostly conceptually, without assuming anything about its outward manifestation.


Of course! Reacting to circumstances - like the idea of being controlled that goes completely against the grain of any 8. An I/ENTJ can disregard authority if it doesn't make sense to them. For example, being told to walk quietly in a certain area to protect mating rituals of the local wildlife is totally acceptable as a good reason to follow expectations but being told to shave your legs by some random guy on the street is going to get an entirely different (and swift) response. Similarly to mia-me's response about not wanting to follow a petty "authority" I find it difficult to follow without questioning why too. (and so does Squirt, although I think the lines are blurred as I have not been acting with authority in this thread officially, but, everyone knows I could if I needed to).


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Allostasis said:


> I've always been rebellious and at times slightly anti-social in childhood, doesn't matter who it was. I used to scold adults a lot when I was a kid lmao.


Same. Grandpa really shouldn’t have been head-butting a goat, though. It turned out exactly as expected.


Allostasis said:


> This can be interpreted as a clash between two extraverted judgments rather than attitudes if we do want to put this tale into a typological context.
> Both were based on certain independent "reality"—the observable one and the stupid one.


Clashes… not sure if that is quite right, either. I’ll think on it more.

And yes, to note, this is more to improve the conceptual understanding of extraverted/introverted, not identify specific behaviors of individuals. In individuals, no one is entirely introverted or extraverted.


----------



## X10E8 (Apr 28, 2021)

Dalien said:


> Wow! I got you to give your opinion. I’m thinking that you don’t understand that when I post on threads I’m Dalien and not a mod. And, I’ll damn site let people know when I’m in mod mode—all of this is how I roll. None of these posts with you are in mod mode. I can and do separate the two; even though, with you I expressed that modding takes up a lot of time—goes with working and doing life also expressed. This was to explain to you why I didn’t want to watch a very long (1 1/2 hrs.) video and if you would give me explanation/opinion on it. You’re final answer was no. I had accepted that.
> 
> I expressed about common courtesy, so where does “you fucking better give me the explanations” come from? Really, you’re claiming that of me. Wow, just wow! I think your the one that has a problem with me.
> 
> ...


Oh ok, I guess I can trust you then.. 


Dalien said:


> Wow! I got you to give your opinion. I’m thinking that you don’t understand that when I post on threads I’m Dalien and not a mod. And, I’ll damn site let people know when I’m in mod mode—all of this is how I roll. None of these posts with you are in mod mode. I can and do separate the two; even though, with you I expressed that modding takes up a lot of time—goes with working and doing life also expressed. This was to explain to you why I didn’t want to watch a very long (1 1/2 hrs.) video and if you would give me explanation/opinion on it. You’re final answer was no. I had accepted that.
> 
> I expressed about common courtesy, so where does “you fucking better give me the explanations” come from? Really, you’re claiming that of me. Wow, just wow! I think your the one that has a problem with me.
> 
> ...


Sorry for late reply, I forgot about this thread, 

What we're we talking about again....oh yeah. my mind is racing everywhere right now. 

Well I hope I'm giving you a good time. XD


----------



## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

LOL @ ENTP being the ''most rebellious''. Yes, they are mouthy and love to question authority but that's just it. At the end of the day they tend to fall in line and don't actually break rules.

Young SP types on the other hand, those bitches be crazy! Even the older, more settled ones will often use these weird shortcuts in life that make most of us look at them with a bit of a judgy eye.


----------



## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

Rebels without causes, would be the archetype for counterphobics.


----------



## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Stevester said:


> LOL @ ENTP being the ''most rebellious''. Yes, they are mouthy and love to question authority but that's just it. At the end of the day they tend to fall in line and don't actually break rules.
> 
> Young SP types on the other hand, those bitches be crazy! Even the older, more settled ones will often use these weird shortcuts in life that make most of us look at them with a bit of a judgy eye.


Depends on what's at stake. If you're paying me, yeah, I'll probably back down. Plenty of times where I took a stand and was willing to pay the price.


----------



## attic (May 20, 2012)

The emperor's clothes makes me think of minority influence, the importance of there being some to sort of break the spell when it goes too far with common ways to see things. I have related this to Fi and Ti I think, but that might just be because it is what I can relate to more. I guess it could also be that the child just observe and compare to what it has learnt, and that it has learnt one laugh at people who are naked in public, that it is the correct way to react. But the way the whole story is told... I think it is more about that function in society, some kind of role of not being so in tune with the group, to question, speak up, offer another perspective, it can be a child, innocent and new, or a fool, that is often seen as foolish, out of sync and wrong, but when it comes to things that most somewhere within think is actually right, that someone say them matters, and a small minority can then influence the majority, and keep the majority from a common course towards folly.

I am not sure I would relate this so much to a rebel, but in a way I guess it is. But my association to rebel is more about being obstinate and insubordinate.. sort of thirsting for the highs of the conflict, of the uprise?

In a way I could see how the want to join in and unite in a fight can bring out rebelliousness perhaps the most, during the right circumstances. Think about if the illusion in the emperor's clothes was not about invisible fabrics and how beautiful they were, and how stupid the ones not seeing it were, but about how great the uprising is, how important the invisible cause is, and how stupid everyone is who don't see the need for it is. How that could spread and cause a huge rebellion, people joining in competing about being the most zealous rebels, the most questioning, the most skeptical...


----------



## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

tanstaafl28 said:


> Depends on what's at stake. If you're paying me, yeah, I'll probably back down. Plenty of times where I took a stand and was willing to pay the price.


Yeah but would you ever do an onlyfans, grow and sell weed, literally try to bribe the cop when he pulls you over? Because I've seen a lot of SPs (even older ones) do some or all of these.


----------



## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Stevester said:


> Yeah but would you ever do an onlyfans, grow and sell weed, literally try to bribe the cop when he pulls you over? Because I've seen a lot of SPs (even older ones) do some or all of these.


If I did, you'd never know about it. Stealth Rebel.


----------



## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Allostasis said:


> True in relation to what though? Haven't read the book about 12 archetypes yet.


That’s just it, where do the 12 Jungian archetypes fall into Jung’s primordial archetypes.
I haven’t read the book either. This has been nagging me, so I guess I’ll have to read it one day.

12 Jungian Archetypes: Innocent, Sage, Explorer, Rebel, Magician, Hero, Lover, Jester, Everyman, Caregiver, Ruler, Creator

Jung’s primordial archetypes: Shadow, Persona, Anima/Animus, Great mother, Trickster, Eternal child, Senex/Chrone, Self


----------



## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

Dalien said:


> That’s just it, where do the 12 Jungian archetypes fall into Jung’s primordial archetypes.
> I haven’t read the book either. This has been nagging me, so I guess I’ll have to read it one day.
> 
> 12 Jungian Archetypes: Innocent, Sage, Explorer, Rebel, Magician, Hero, Lover, Jester, Everyman, Caregiver, Ruler, Creator
> ...


The archetypes are a bit too airy-fairy for me to handle. Same goes for the collective unconscious.


----------

