# Straight women, would you date a trans man?



## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

If he looked like this dude? 

What's your stance on being with trans men?


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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)




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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

first trans man to ever grace the cover of men's health magazine


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## Trec93 (Jan 31, 2015)

well they can't be taking steroids their whole life can they?


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## BranchMonkey (Feb 23, 2017)

I don't find these examples attractive. That aside, no, I wouldn't. Reasons? Many, and the energy I'd expend right now would use up what I need for projects, so that's it: No (not if he looked like that) and no (I wouldn't date a transgender male).


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## Toru Okada (May 10, 2011)

Sun Bear said:


> first trans man to ever grace the cover of men's health magazine


That's crazy


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Maybe. It's mostly the lack of dick that could potentially be unsatisfying, even tho I'm a bit bisexual so it's not a deal breaker either. It always boils down to liking the person for me and the rest would just take a bit of adjustment period to get used to.


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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

Trec93 said:


> well they can't be taking steroids their whole life can they?


?? They don't take steroids.


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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

Red Panda said:


> Maybe. It's mostly the lack of dick that could potentially be unsatisfying, even tho I'm a bit bisexual so it's not a deal breaker either. It always boils down to liking the person for me and the rest would just take a bit of adjustment period to get used to.


I take it you're not familiar with strap-ons. They feel the same.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Sun Bear said:


> I take it you're not familiar with strap-ons. They feel the same.


I haven't used one no, but I doubt it's the exact same feeling, since it's not actually part of the other person.


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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

Red Panda said:


> I haven't used one no, but I doubt it's the exact same feeling, since it's not actually part of the other person.


Felt the same to me. And anyway it's about _whom_ the phallus is attached to, not necessarily the phallus_ itself_.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Sun Bear said:


> Felt the same to me. And anyway it's about _whom_ the phallus is attached to, not necessarily the phallus_ itself_.


They are not warm or pulsating, and probably have other differences as well, like not feeling the other person's pleasure since it's not part of their body.
It's like you intentionally ignored the rest of my post tho.


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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

Red Panda said:


> They are not warm or pulsating, and probably have other differences as well, like not feeling the other person's pleasure since it's not part of their body.
> It's like you intentionally ignored the rest of my post tho.





Red Panda said:


> Maybe. It's mostly the lack of dick that could potentially be unsatisfying, even tho I'm a bit bisexual so it's not a deal breaker either. It always boils down to liking the person for me and the rest would just take a bit of adjustment period to get used to.



Intentionally? No. I mean I just agreed with what you said. "boils down to liking the person" "it matters who the phallus is attached to" I don't see which part was ignored.

And anyway if you've never been with someone who used a strap-on to fuck you there's no way for you to know whether it's comparable. They make ones that are warm and pulsate.


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## OrangeCounty (Jul 30, 2010)

The second dude is pretty cute.


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## Trec93 (Jan 31, 2015)

Sun Bear said:


> ?? They don't take steroids.


of course they do.


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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

Trec93 said:


> of course they do.


:dry: you assume anyone who's fit uses steroids or just these guys because they're trans?


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## Trec93 (Jan 31, 2015)

Sun Bear said:


> :dry: you assume anyone who's fit uses steroids or just these guys because they're trans?


there is nothing to assume, these women take steroids.

if you think these women didn't take steroids.. I don't know what to tell you, enjoy your puny ignorant life..


* *




thank you for correcting my sig, :laughing: but if you'd like me to answer your visitor message you would have to actually allow people to visit your profile..


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Trec93 said:


> there is nothing to assume, these women take steroids.
> 
> if you think these women didn't take steroids.. I don't know what to tell you, enjoy your ignorant life..
> 
> ...


Why do you say they take steroids?


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## Trec93 (Jan 31, 2015)

Red Panda said:


> Why do you say they take steroids?


because I understand biology.

you say that like I'm doing something terrible by stating a fact.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Trec93 said:


> because I understand biology.
> 
> would you like to know my personal experience with working out, taking steroids, networking with people who used steroids and bodybuilders? I hope not because most people wouldn't understand most of it even though would not hesitate to argue with me and waste my time, all you need is some understanding of biology.
> 
> you can use google too btw. it's called TRT.


how presumptuous of you

As for testosterone, they obviously take it otherwise they wouldn't look like men, it's a prescribed therapy for the case of transgender men or other men who need to take it for medical reasons. It's also not the same as using illegal anabolic steroids which is what your post implies.


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## Trec93 (Jan 31, 2015)

Red Panda said:


> how presumptuous of you
> 
> As for testosterone, they obviously take it otherwise they wouldn't look like men, it's a prescribed therapy for the case of transgender men or other men who need to take it for medical reasons. It's also not the same as using illegal anabolic steroids which is what your post implies.


it's a steroid...


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Trec93 said:


> it's a steroid...


Yes, and it's a supervised hormone replacement therapy for transitioning into male. Comparing it to illegal steroid use by bodybuilders is not the same. Those are much more dangerous.


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## Trec93 (Jan 31, 2015)

Red Panda said:


> Yes, and it's a supervised hormone replacement therapy for transitioning into male. Comparing it to illegal steroid use by bodybuilders is not the same. Those are much more dangerous.


it's still a steroid... you don't make any sense now, you just argue for the sake of arguing, bodybuilders have prescriptions too, women bodybuilders take steroids too with prescriptions... they are dangerous and because a trannie takes it it doesn't make it less dangerous......

Red Panda pls.


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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

Anyway, moving right past _that......._


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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

Trec93 said:


> it's still a steroid... you don't make any sense now, you just argue for the sake of arguing, bodybuilders have prescriptions too, women bodybuilders take steroids too with prescriptions... they are dangerous and because a trannie takes it it doesn't make it less dangerous......
> 
> Red Panda pls.


Gtfo of my thread.


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## Trec93 (Jan 31, 2015)

Sun Bear said:


> Gtfo of my thread.


way to admit when you're wrong, shouldn've been arguing with me in the first place. :laughing:










I can't believe transgender advocates aren't even educated in what they advocate.

:laughing:


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Trec93 said:


> it's still a steroid... you don't make any sense now, you just argue for the sake of arguing, bodybuilders have prescriptions too, women bodybuilders take steroids too with prescriptions... they are dangerous and because a trannie takes it it doesn't make it less dangerous......
> 
> Red Panda pls.


F2M take testosterone to reach a normal male level of circulating hormone, they don't overdose to build more muscle in the way male bodybuilders do. You can go over to wiki and see the health changes of F2M HRT and compare it to negative side effects of bodybuilders taking steroids. So yes, they take testosterone for life, just like men with hypogonadism do.


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## Trec93 (Jan 31, 2015)

Red Panda said:


> F2M take testosterone to reach a normal male level of circulating hormone, they don't overdose to build more muscle in the way male bodybuilders do. You can go over to wiki and see the health changes of F2M HRT and compare it to negative side effects of bodybuilders taking steroids. So yes, they take testosterone for life, just like men with hypogonadism do.


does it change the fact that they take steroids? 

also it's usually not just testosterone, they have to block estrogen too otherwise the testosterone would aromatase into estrogen, so it's a set of steroids.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Trec93 said:


> does it change the fact that they take steroids?
> 
> also it's usually not just testosterone, they have to block estrogen too otherwise the testosterone would aromatase into estrogen.


are you being intentionally obtuse? whatever...


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## Warp11 (Jul 13, 2016)

If I understand correctly (which I am almost certain that I don't, even after 3 pages of nonsense), you are asking if "I" (in the universal sense of "I") as a straight/heterosexual female would date (i.e. sexual intercourse or some other sexual activity presumed) a transsexual human if they physically looked like the "males" in the photos posted earlier, assuming they do not have the reproductive system commonly associated with larger muscle mass and facial hair in excess of a few pesky chin hairs. I will try to answer, despite having a proclivity toward men who do not posture themselves like that in front of the camera, and having a few other criteria re: dating a person. Since this is hypothetical...

Choices: 
1. Anatomically "male" at birth, has XY chroms and penis/testicles. Makes choice to have "gender reassignment" surgery at some point and exist as a "female" in the sense of removing the penis/testicles and potentially having the vaginal cavity "constructed." But still wants to look like a muscular dude? No. Likely not.

2. Anatomically "female" at birth, has XX chroms and vagina/uterus. Makes choice to undergo "gender reassignment" therapy in the form of hormones (anabolic steroids?) to produce larger than normal muscle mass, facial hair, deeper voice and clitoral engorgement/enlargement. "S/he" has also had both breasts removed yet opts to retain the XX reproductive organs. (I think this is one of the posted examples?) 
No. Likely not. 

3. Anatomically "female" at birth, has XX chroms and vagina/uterus. Makes choice to undergo "gender reassignment" therapy in the form of hormones (anabolic steroids?) to produce larger than normal muscle mass, facial hair, deeper voice, etc and "S/he" has also surgery to have both breasts removed and to remove existing female repro organs and then construct a "functioning" penis from the vaginal/clitoral tissue and the skin from the inner forearm (look it up). 
Hrrmmm... I would almost consider this a fully transformed female to male and a potential yes.

Weird to admit, but what does it truly mean to be male or female? Complex biology? We can change it! Complex gender constructs? We can change those too!

I love coming here. Always something to think about.


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## heymoon (Nov 26, 2016)

I'm not straight (i'm questionably bi) but yeah, I would. I mean, as long as he's a decent human being with a good personality, why not? (also, i'm ace so i wouldn't care too much if he didn't have a d)


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## Short Cake Cake (Jan 13, 2017)

Some people seem to get upset when revealed they wouldn't date a trans. But if you're not Bisexual I don't see why it's an issue?
Personally I would like biologically related children, a transgender male could not ever offer that. Also trans people don't always fully transition their genitalia. I find it hypocritical for people to say genitalia doesn't matter, you should love the person when it comes to trans issues. But for gay issues it's the opposite. 

Trans men are trans men not men, that's why they aren't just called men.
Overall I can't see myself getting in a serious relationship with a transgender male.
It has nothing to do with looks, there are women who I think are attractive but I still am not interested in dating them. However if I happen to fall in love with one, that's that it's just highly unlikely.

I imagine it's hard though, I have only one transgender female friend and she is still navigating when to tell people (in the dating sense) she's not biologically female. I'm not really sure if she's obligated to but then again I'm sure many would disagree.


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## with water (Aug 13, 2014)

Sun Bear said:


> first trans man to ever grace the cover of men's health magazine


All those masculine features and they still look like a girl. You can't hide the telltale signs.


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## BlackDog (Jan 6, 2012)

No, I wouldn't.


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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

with water said:


> All those masculine features and they still look like a girl. You can't hide the telltale signs.


what telltale signs? point them out to me


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## with water (Aug 13, 2014)

Sun Bear said:


> what telltale signs? point them out to me


Facial and eye structure normally. It is more like a bunch of masculine features are just unsettlingly covering up feminine features that are immutable without absolute perfection plastic surgery. I know I am supposed to see this choice as beautiful and this person as beautiful and successful, but really they just look like a surreality in a way that gives one a sick feeling. Humans are very viscerally affected by the uncanny. It will take a lot of reprogramming for people to accept this as normal.

Edit: Like seriously. Girl lips, girl nose, girl eyes, girl face shape. The loudness of the masculine details elsewhere is not compelling enough to hide what humans genetically have had unfathomable amounts of time to identify as female.


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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

@with water

That photo is actually of a cis male. The last one I tagged you in.

How can you be "gender neutral" and feel sick about trans people. What the fuck. I can't believe all the transphobic shit I'm seeing on this thread. I did not expect people to react this way at all, especially on this site. Wow.


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## with water (Aug 13, 2014)

Sun Bear said:


> @with water
> 
> That photo is actually of a cis male. The last one I tagged you in.
> 
> How can you be "genders neutral" and feel sick about trans people. What the fuck. I can't believe all the transphobic shit I'm seeing on this thread. I did not expect people to react this way at all, especially on this site. Wow.


I figured I had been baited. But throwing me off a trail with an effeminate male doesn't detract from any of my points.

My point stands. If you can't accept that it is the instinctual first response of a human to be unnerved by trans people, you can't move forward the discourse or your cause. You cannot dominate others into a mode of acceptance. That can only be achieved through empathy and educating others. It is up to the individual to weigh the significance of this education, and that has to be something you are willing to accept.


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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

with water said:


> I figured I had been baited.
> 
> But my point stands. If you can't accept that it is the instinctual first response of a human to be unnerved by trans people, you can't move forward the discourse or your cause. You cannot dominate others into a mode of acceptance. That can only be achieved through empathy and educating others. It is up to the individual to weigh the significance of this education, and that has to be something you are willing to accept.



I call bullshit on that. Like where in the world do you live where you're physically unnerved by seeing a trans person? Do you live in a cave? I'm not trying to be a dick but really. I grew up in a small ish town myself anyway, and I don't react that way at all so that's not even an excuse. There is such a thing as willful ignorance and bigotry, in case you haven't noticed on this thread. I don't have empathy for people who are just flat out hateful because they're stupid scared about something they don't understand. Grow the fuck up people. Take responsibility for your ignorance and fucking pick up a book. Educate yourself.


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## with water (Aug 13, 2014)

Sun Bear said:


> I call bullshit on that. Like where in the world do you live where you're physically unnerved by seeing a trans person? Do you live in a cave? I'm not trying to be a dick but really. I grew up in a small ish town myself anyway, and I don't react that way at all so that's not even an excuse. There is such a thing as willful ignorance and bigotry, in case you haven't noticed on this thread. I don't have empathy for people who are just flat out hateful because they're stupid scared about something they don't understand. Grow the fuck up people. Take responsibility for your ignorance and fucking pick up a book. Educate yourself.


So this is how you act when you are confronted with the idea that you need to be empathetic towards others and understand where they are coming from in order to communicate with or educate them? You can't teach tolerance with an iron fist. Do you really think the end result of an approach like that is anything resembling peace, brotherhood, or tolerance? I claim that humans are naturally unnerved at the uncanny, and for efficiency's sake, you ignore my actual meaning, experience, nuanced opinions on the matter and slap the label 'hate' on it. 

A tolerance that thrives on being intolerant towards others with a different viewpoint is worth nothing.


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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

with water said:


> So this is how you act when you are confronted with the idea that you need to be empathetic towards others and understand where they are coming from in order to communicate with or educate them? You can't teach tolerance with an iron fist. Do you really think the end result of an approach like that is anything resembling peace, brotherhood, or tolerance? I claim that humans are naturally unnerved at the uncanny, and for efficiency's sake, you ignore my actual meaning, experience, nuanced opinions on the matter and slap the label 'hate' on it.
> 
> A tolerance that thrives on being intolerant towards others with a different viewpoint is worth nothing.



Being empathetic towards _bigots_ is not my personal strong suit. Whoops a daisy. Not a big enough heart for it, I suppose. I'm sure there are other people who'd be willing to learn ya something, though.


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## with water (Aug 13, 2014)

Sun Bear said:


> Being empathetic towards _bigots_ is not my personal strong suit. Whoops a daisy. Not a big enough heart for it, I suppose. I'm sure there are other people who'd be willing to learn ya something, though.


This is the second time you reduce my point to a generalized word with negative connotation rather than bother to understand anything about my position. There is an extreme danger in failing to see others as human beings with similar hang ups and hardships as yourself. Cutting yourself off from empathy in order to solidify your worldview harms you more than you understand.


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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

with water said:


> This is the second time you reduce my point to a generalized word with negative connotation rather than bother to understand anything about my position. There is an extreme danger in failing to see others as human beings with similar hang ups and hardships as yourself. Cutting yourself off from empathy in order to solidify your worldview harms you more than you understand.


No I understand what you're saying. It's hypocritical of me to say that I won't accept and understand bigots while also saying they need to accept and understand other people. I got that part. And yeah, we should come at it from a peaceful view with education in mind rather than hate. Understood. My white privilege puts me in a position that I don't_ have_ to get angry about racists, (because after all, it isn't _me_ that they hate, amirite?) I don't have to get angry about xenophobes in America because I was born here. Isn't that how it works?


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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)




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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

just for the record, I'm not saying if you wouldn't date a transman you're a bigot. but saying


> it is the instinctual first response of a human to be unnerved by trans people


 and


> but really they just look like a surreality in a way that gives one a sick feeling. Humans are very viscerally affected by the uncanny. It will take a lot of reprogramming for people to accept this as normal.


---is fucking transphobic and insane. referring to trans men as "trannies" and "women on steroids" is fucking bigoted and transphobic. 

that is all.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

with water said:


> I figured I had been baited. But throwing me off a trail with an effeminate male doesn't detract from any of my points.
> 
> My point stands. If you can't accept that it is the instinctual first response of a human to be unnerved by trans people, you can't move forward the discourse or your cause. You cannot dominate others into a mode of acceptance. That can only be achieved through empathy and educating others. It is up to the individual to weigh the significance of this education, and that has to be something you are willing to accept.


While I understand that humans don't react very well to such things viscerally, we also have the capacity to overcome that feeling and be more accepting. And I agree that people who feel unnerved by such things should be approached with diplomacy and understanding, not counter-hate, especially in cases of people who are not trying to hurt anyone, but are scared by the different and unknown.
However, in this case it seems to me you went out of your way to identify characteristics in these transmen that seem "abnormal" to you, when objectively no one would blink an eye if they saw them walking outside because objectively they look like an averagely mascular man. There are plenty of cismen who look more feminine than them. These people exist and have always existed whether you like it or not (and it's not a choice) and now with modern medicine they go out of their way, taking hormones even sterilizing themselves to look like the gender they feel like they are and to be accepted. There's gotta be a middle point of acceptance.


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## SimplyRivers (Sep 5, 2015)

Why would a straight woman date someone that is biologically female? 

If they do, they are not really straight.

Now, would I date them? No, they look like try-hards to me.


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

After reading this thread I'm questioning my sexuality - quite sure I'm straight bc physically I'm romantically attracted to male- however I recalled having a minor crush on a customer whom I thought was male , and when I found out she was a girl my attraction towards her didn't fade . 
So to answer your question- yes 
But no to all those images posted 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Clouds are singing (Sep 28, 2016)

I don't identify as completely straight because I have several times been attracted to women, but I still identify as mostly straight because I am more often attracted to men. I myself am not a fan of the men in those pictures because I don't find that much muscle attractive. When it comes to dating a trans man I don't know. It depends on the guy I suppose. I don't see why not if the attraction is there.


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## Denature (Nov 6, 2015)

Sun Bear said:


> just for the record, I'm not saying if you wouldn't date a transman you're a bigot. but saying and ---is fucking transphobic and insane.* referring to trans men as "trannies" and "women on steroids" is fucking bigoted and transphobic*.
> 
> that is all.


Don't know what "tranny" means but "women on steroids" is a factual statement as another user already pointed out. Do you know what the words bigot and transphobic mean anyway or do you just throw them out at whomever doesn't agree with you? Ironically, this makes you sound more of a bigot than anyone else who's posted on this thread because you're so unwilling to hear out others' positions and would rather just call them transphobic (oh my).


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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

Poizon said:


> Don't know what "tranny" means but "women on steroids" is a factual statement as another user already pointed out. Do you know what the words bigot and transphobic mean anyway or do you just throw them out at whomever doesn't agree with you? Ironically, this makes you sound more of a bigot than anyone else who's posted on this thread because you're so unwilling to hear out others' positions and would rather just call them transphobic (oh my).


Trans men have to take T for the duration of their lives, that doesn't mean they're not really men. Referring to them as "just women on steroids" is insensitive and wrong.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Poizon said:


> Don't know what "tranny" means but "women on steroids" is a factual statement as another user already pointed out. Do you know what the words bigot and transphobic mean anyway or do you just throw them out at whomever doesn't agree with you? Ironically, this makes you sound more of a bigot than anyone else who's posted on this thread because you're so unwilling to hear out others' positions and would rather just call them transphobic (oh my).


Then educate yourself a bit further because your supposed "factual" statement is not facts; that's more like a twisting of semantics to suit your own point of view by conveniently ignoring surrounding contexts. As @Red Panda pointed out, there's a huge implied difference in taking steroids in the sense of seeking to gain mass and doing it safely as a part of HRT as prescribed by a doctor. Yes, testosterone is an androgen and is thus considered a steroid, but that doesn't mean that one is taking steroids if you are on TRT, because the purpose, how it affects health etc. is very different. 

Failure to recognize this difference is just intellectually disingenuous and logically fallacious.


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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transphobia


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## with water (Aug 13, 2014)

Red Panda said:


> While I understand that humans don't react very well to such things viscerally, we also have the capacity to overcome that feeling and be more accepting. And I agree that people who feel unnerved by such things should be approached with diplomacy and understanding, not counter-hate, especially in cases of people who are not trying to hurt anyone, but are scared by the different and unknown.
> However, in this case it seems to me you went out of your way to identify characteristics in these transmen that seem "abnormal" to you, when objectively no one would blink an eye if they saw them walking outside because objectively they look like an averagely mascular man. There are plenty of cismen who look more feminine than them. These people exist and have always existed whether you like it or not (and it's not a choice) and now with modern medicine they go out of their way, taking hormones even sterilizing themselves to look like the gender they feel like they are and to be accepted. There's gotta be a middle point of acceptance.


I go out of my way to acknowledge it because the ideas you just said you understand are considered radical to some now. Many don't understand or refuse to acknowledge that there ever could be a reason for literal transphobia (not the transphobia people use when they just want to say trans hate, but actual lower brain fear.) The dialogue has gone so far that people's moderate concerns can get trampled in the traffic of people who are only there to hate the other side and see their revolution than inform, equip, and deepen one another's empathy. I am happy to talk to someone like you who can take these things into account, but for those who are out for change through blood, likely not even consciously, I have to reassert that there differences that must be acknowledged.


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## Denature (Nov 6, 2015)

Sun Bear said:


> Trans men have to take T for the duration of their lives, that doesn't mean they're not really men. Referring to them as "just women on steroids" is insensitive and wrong.


But factually sound.



Entropic said:


> Then educate yourself a bit further because your supposed "factual" statement is not facts; that's more like a twisting of semantics to suit your own point of view by conveniently ignoring surrounding contexts. As @Red Panda pointed out, there's a huge implied difference in taking steroids in the sense of seeking to gain mass and doing it safely as a part of HRT as prescribed by a doctor. Yes, testosterone is an androgen and is thus considered a steroid, but that doesn't mean that one is taking steroids if you are on TRT, because the purpose, how it affects health etc. is very different.
> 
> Failure to recognize this difference is just intellectually disingenuous and logically fallacious.


Still a steroid though, even if it's not the same as what people usually associate with the word.
There's a difference yes, but it's still a steroid.


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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

Poizon said:


> But factually sound.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Refusal to acknowledge trans men as men is transphobia.

http://www.lgbt.cusu.cam.ac.uk/resources/trans/tackling-transphobia/


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## warxzawa (Aug 19, 2016)

ok, first of all, i feel attracted to females and males. 
would date a trans male, but not because they feel like a woman to me, because they feel like a man, if i were dating this guy, it wouldn't be doing it because i think he is a woman behind. i would date a trans guy the same way i would with a straight one.
in the sexual aspect, this idea of sex as "penis enters vagina" it's so close-minded, sex is suppose to be about pleasuring each other, and if this guy takes pleasure by making other people feel it, great.
and about the reproductive aspect, having a biological child is not that important to me, when you raise a kid, you will notice when it's yours by their mannerisms and personality instead of the color of their eyes


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

SimplyRivers said:


> Why would a straight woman date someone that is biologically female?
> 
> If they do, they are not really straight.
> 
> Now, would I date them? No, they look like try-hards to me.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

warxzawa said:


> in the sexual aspect, this idea of sex as "penis enters vagina" it's so close-minded, sex is suppose to be about pleasuring each other, and if this guy takes pleasure by making other people feel it, great.
> and about the reproductive aspect, having a biological child is not that important to me, when you raise a kid, you will notice when it's yours by their mannerisms and personality instead of the color of their eyes


As a fellow bisexual—I can contend to the points made; _however_, it is also this_ sole reason _that I am not a pansexual. Their genitals prevent(s) any further sexual contact with them beyond coitus -- without being physically repulsed myself.

I have seen amateur Trans-coitus/masturbation (&) have found myself instantaneously turned off -- (e.g., their genital(s)) which seem to be varied degrees of a transitional genital. (e.g., 6 inch clitoris [miniture] penile structure with a vaginal opening + excessive discharge). The ambiguity / multi-functional aspect(s) of the genital makes me _reluctant_ to proceed.

I would not perform oral sex on either without being repulsed—this does not seem the same for shemales with well-defined genilitia + cross-dressing of (transgendered). While "shemales" have well-defined genitilia; the cross of bodies I am also _physically repulsed_ by. Granted, the rejection is about as simple as the argument; their genitals are physically repulsive to look at, I hate to say [which is the crux of sexual filtration].


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

with water said:


> I go out of my way to acknowledge it because the ideas you just said you understand are considered radical to some now. Many don't understand or refuse to acknowledge that there ever could be a reason for literal transphobia (not the transphobia people use when they just want to say trans hate, but actual lower brain fear.) The dialogue has gone so far that people's moderate concerns can get trampled in the traffic of people who are only there to hate the other side and see their revolution than inform, equip, and deepen one another's empathy. I am happy to talk to someone like you who can take these things into account, but for those who are out for change through blood, likely not even consciously, I have to reassert that there differences that must be acknowledged.


But focusing so much and nitpicking about whether these guys have feminine features is just putting oil in a flame, it's not going to help the other person not yell "transphobic". 

Matter of the fact is that transmen are not biologically men but are doing what they can to live a normal life with a condition they didn't choose to have by using whatever methods available to look like men and pass as men. So nitpicking in such cases is not helpful to anyone. Have to meet in the middle. That goes for people who yell transphobia in cases when there's none of course. Slapping a label and turning the other way is reactionary and not going to advance society in any way, it only creates tension.


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## Denature (Nov 6, 2015)

Sun Bear said:


> Refusal to acknowledge trans men as men is transphobia.
> 
> Tackling transphobia | CUSU LGBT+


*facepalm* Didn't even have to click on the link to know that it's obviously horribly biased haha :laughing:

Here's the dictionary definition
_"intense dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people."_
Stating an objective fact is not against trans people lol.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

warxzawa said:


> ok, first of all, i feel attracted to females and males.
> would date a trans male, but not because they feel like a woman to me, because they feel like a man, if i were dating this guy, it wouldn't be doing it because i think he is a woman behind. i would date a trans guy the same way i would with a straight one.
> in the sexual aspect, this idea of sex as "penis enters vagina" it's so close-minded, sex is suppose to be about pleasuring each other, and if this guy takes pleasure by making other people feel it, great.
> and about the reproductive aspect, having a biological child is not that important to me, when you raise a kid, you will notice when it's yours by their mannerisms and personality instead of the color of their eyes


I think taking away the importance of "penis enters vagina" is just as bad as what you are advocating against. Of course if two people like each other they will likely find a way and sex is more than just that, but depending on the person and their sexual expression, penetrative sex with a penis can be very important, even a deal breaker. Sex is a very personal thing and shaming people for having a particular preference as "close minded" is not nice even if it seemingly promotes acceptance for a group of people that are in disadvantage.


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## with water (Aug 13, 2014)

Red Panda said:


> But focusing so much and nitpicking about whether these guys have feminine features is just putting oil in a flame, it's not going to help the other person not yell "transphobic".
> 
> Matter of the fact is that transmen are not biologically men but are doing what they can to live a normal life with a condition they didn't choose to have by using whatever methods available to look like men and pass as men. So nitpicking in such cases is not helpful to anyone. Have to meet in the middle. That goes for people who yell transphobia in cases when there's none of course. Slapping a label and turning the other way is reactionary and not going to advance society in any way, it only creates tension.


This is interesting and I want to point out that I realize our point of contention is that I was using pictured person as example vs you holding this person up as an individual whose goals and experiences you wish to respect and hold sacred. I see why it matters to you, but I still have to reserve the right to direct a critical analytical eye to the topic. If we cannot talk about the mechanism behind your average person perceiving and reacting to a trans man, then we miss out on an opportunity to cultivate empathy based on the facts of the matter.


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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

Poizon said:


> *facepalm* Didn't even have to click on the link to know that it's obviously horribly biased haha :laughing:
> 
> Here's the dictionary definition
> _"intense dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people."_
> Stating an objective fact is not against trans people lol.






> The following are a few examples of transphobic attitudes:
> *The belief/insistence that non-binary genders are invalid*
> The belief/insistence that transsexual people are gay people in denial and wish to have sex reassignment surgery to attempt to restore ‘heteronormativity’
> The refusal to acknowledge a trans person’s true gender
> ...


This is directly from the LGBTQ community, I think they should be the ones to determine whether something qualifies as transphobia or not.


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## warxzawa (Aug 19, 2016)

Red Panda said:


> I think taking away the importance of "penis enters vagina" is just as bad as what you are advocating against. Of course if two people like each other they will likely find a way and sex is more than just that, but depending on the person and their sexual expression, penetrative sex with a penis can be very important, even a deal breaker. Sex is a very personal thing and shaming people for having a particular preference as "close minded" is not nice even if it seemingly promotes acceptance for a group of people that are in disadvantage.


i wasn't trying to shame anyone for a "particular preference". i was trying to state that it's not the only way to have sex, and people saying it is, it's in a matter of fact close-minded.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Poizon said:


> Still a steroid though, even if it's not the same as what people usually associate with the word.
> There's a difference yes, but it's still a steroid.


So you are still twisting semantics to suit your argument.


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## BlackDog (Jan 6, 2012)

Sun Bear said:


> This is directly from the LGBTQ community, I think they should be the ones to determine whether something qualifies as transphobia or not.


I think I'm going to start calling any man who disagrees with me a misogynist.


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## with water (Aug 13, 2014)

Entropic said:


> So you are still twisting semantics to suit your argument.


The argument is a semantic one in nature. What else would he do?


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

warxzawa said:


> i wasn't trying to shame anyone for a "particular preference". i was trying to state that it's not the only way to have sex, and people saying it is, it's in a matter of fact close-minded.


If someone truly believes that the only way to pleasure one another is through penetrative sex then I agree. But more often than not it's more nuanced than this, like I explained.


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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

BlackDog said:


> I think I'm going to start calling any man who disagrees with me a misogynist.



Go for it.

I didn't say he was transphobic, I said what he was saying is considered transphobic by definition. He wanted to get stupid about semantics with me so I'm giving it back. Just like I did with the other asshole who came through here being petty and disrespectful.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Sun Bear said:


> This is directly from the LGBTQ community, I think they should be the ones to determine whether something qualifies as transphobia or not.


I would like to see these points backed up by scientific evidence. Non-binary does not exist unless you are intersex, there's a reason why transpeople are trans, they try to transition to the correct, for them, gender, which is the opposite of how they are born. Being a feminine man or a masculine woman does not make you a different gender. Non - conforming gender expressions are fine, but they are not a different gender. 

Then we'd have to define what "real man/woman" means, because if it means not biological then it's true, otherwise it's a social thing and has to be discussed in depth.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

with water said:


> The argument is a semantic one in nature. What else would he do?


Recognizing the nuances of reality maybe? I already explained that in my previous post.


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## with water (Aug 13, 2014)

Entropic said:


> Recognizing the nuances of reality maybe? I already explained that in my previous post.


In terms of your argument, steroids are also used to make sure lungs are working properly and other such things. So yes, the "on steroids" part isn't worth zeroing in on here. The assertion that a transitioned female is still a female should be the main premise that should be sorted out. 

If you fast forward a few posts, you will arrive at arguing whether or not gender is separate from sex, or whether sex is what identifies male or female.

Good luck defining your terms on that one.


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## Denature (Nov 6, 2015)

Sun Bear said:


> Go for it.
> I didn't say he was transphobic, I said what he was saying is considered transphobic by definition. He wanted to get stupid about semantics with me so I'm giving it back. Just like I did with the other asshole who came through here being petty and disrespectful.


By your citation's definition. Whereas the real definition of transphobia was posted already :laughing:



Sun Bear said:


> This is directly from the LGBTQ community, I think they should be the ones to determine whether something qualifies as transphobia or not.


Can you not see the issue with this statement? You're hilarious :laughing:



Entropic said:


> So you are still twisting semantics to suit your argument.


How is stating an objective fact twisting semantics? A steroid is a steroid. There are different types yes, as I've already stated. Or should I be more PC and say something like "body altering prescription -not a steroid- steroid"? lol


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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

I don't understand how this became such a contentious fucking issue. The question was "Straight women, would you date a trans man?" I should have included men and trans women too but at the time I was specifically interested in how many women are open or averse to the idea of it. 

Some guy came in and said "well they cant take steroids their whole lives can they?" Which was an unwelcome derail. smfh.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

with water said:


> In terms of your argument, steroids are also used to make sure lungs are working properly and other such things. So yes, the "on steroids" part isn't worth zeroing in on here. The assertion that a transitioned female is still a female should be the main premise that should be sorted out.
> 
> If you fast forward a few posts, you will arrive at arguing whether or not gender is separate from sex, or whether sex is what identifies male or female.
> 
> Good luck defining your terms on that one.


Easy as fuck for me but no, I have no interest in going over that right now because it'd require me to write a long wall of post on the subject that will amount to nothing anyway because the main issue has nothing to do with semantics but worldviews. And I am interested in tackling worldviews, not dealing with semantics.

It should be noted that I'm able to juggle more than one worldview as valid since I don't experience a need to have things set in stone. To me the world is ambiguous. That's the biggest source of disagreement. 

To me a trans guy is a guy that was born female, hence terms such as "female-to-male". I have no issue with that or see no contradiction with it. Again, because I have no problem with dealing with various perspectives and seeing how there's a sliding scale between each one of them.

EDIT
Also, to honor the OP, I would fuck a trans guy if I liked him, but I'm panromantic in that sense so I get off more on personality than I do someone's junk. I am not sure how I'd have sex with him but it depends on what he's comfortable with I guess. I was never overly aroused by human genitalia in the first place and it seems to me that what I find to be attractive is also highly dependent on the sex of the person I'm currently in love with.


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## Denature (Nov 6, 2015)

Entropic said:


> Easy as fuck for me but no, I have no interest in going over that right now because it'd require me to write a long wall of post on the subject that will amount to nothing anyway because the main issue has nothing to do with semantics but worldviews. And I am interested in tackling worldviews, not dealing with semantics.


Yeah, it would be _so_ easy for you yet it would take a long wall of post for you to explain :laughing:

Definition of steroid for ya

"any of a large class of organic compounds with a characteristic molecular structure containing four rings of carbon atoms (three six-membered and one five). They include many hormones, alkaloids, and vitamins."

I wonder if the kind of drugs trans people take falls under this definition.... If it does, then wait for it..........
It's a steroid.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Poizon said:


> Yeah, it would be _so_ easy for you yet it would take a long wall of post for you to explain :laughing:
> 
> Definition of steroid for ya
> 
> ...


There was a specific parallel done with bodybuilders who take steroids and the previous discussion was based on that.


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## de.sidera (Feb 4, 2017)

Guys. Guys. I have an idea. 
The question is in itself pointless. 
Talking about "trans men" implies that they're a different brand of men from the very start. It alerts people and ruins the element of surprise.
"You fall in love with a man and later you discover he has a vag/is taking T/whatever, he was not born like that. What do you do?" This might be a more precise question in my opinion.


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## Denature (Nov 6, 2015)

de.sidera said:


> Guys. Guys. I have an idea.
> The question is in itself pointless.
> Talking about "trans men" implies that they're a different brand of men from the very start. It alerts people and ruins the element of surprise.
> "You fall in love with a man and later you discover he has a vag/is taking T/whatever, he was not born like that. What do you do?" This might be a more precise question in my opinion.


I think people would be pissed to know that their partner was deceiving them for so long. Unless you're one of those people who falls in love quite quickly.


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## Asity (May 12, 2014)

WamphyriThrall said:


> Straight women suck :/


You too


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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

WamphyriThrall said:


> Yeah, but even then, I've heard of a few who aren't into dicks or that specific act...


well why would they be. gross.

I was going to say "have you ever had to take a dick before?" but then I remembered like oh yeah. you definitely have taken a dick. and probably love it. lol


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Red Panda said:


> I think such things should be disclosed at the appropriate time, which varies case by case. I'm not saying a trans person should be up front with someone from the 1st date necessarily, but ideally before strong feelings develop. Like, if you get along with someone very well and you sense that things have the potential to turn serious, it's right to share that part of you. It's probably better for the transperson as well, because imagine if they developing feelings only to be painfully rejected because of that.


All right, then I understand. It sounded as if you meant there was a particular specific set time one should disclose but I agree with you, and it varies by case by case. With that said, I don't understand dating in itself and how one can see another person without first even feeling anything in the first place, so. 

So to me, I'd disclose when I feel emotionally comfortable because the person is someone I really value and I trust that they will be understanding. 



de.sidera said:


> @Entropic maybe because their condition is not socially antistrictural?


What do you mean with "antistrictural"?

@Poizon it would do you well to read the actual discussion and what people type to you. You actually responded to all those posts lol, but thanks for confirming that you don't care to read what people write as much as you just want to be right. Not a waste of time because I can't explain, but because you give no fucks for having an honest discussion over wanting to assert your worldview being the most correct one. 

Unless you are actually going to engage the subject in a mature way, stop quote/mention me.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Entropic said:


> All right, then I understand. It sounded as if you meant there was a particular specific set time one should disclose but I agree with you, and it varies by case by case. With that said, I don't understand dating in itself and how one can see another person without first even feeling anything in the first place, so.
> 
> So to me, I'd disclose when I feel emotionally comfortable because the person is someone I really value and I trust that they will be understanding.


I don't really "date" in that sense either, but it's generally a very norm thing to do, so I put it in that context.


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## Denature (Nov 6, 2015)

Entropic said:


> @Poizon it would do you well to read the actual discussion and what people type to you. You actually responded to all those posts lol, but thanks for confirming that you don't care to read what people write as much as you just want to be right. Not a waste of time because I can't explain, but because you give no fucks for having an honest discussion over wanting to assert your worldview being the most correct one.
> 
> Unless you are actually going to engage the subject in a mature way, stop quote/mention me.


Ah, I was under the impression that you were talking about a post that I did not respond to. Apparently I did. 

I can't have a discussion with someone who can't recognize a simple fact. You've devolved from the argument and have made it more personal now. That is how I know I've won the debate and you don't have any genuine counter-arguments.

I stated that trans people take steroids. You respond with




Entropic said:


> Then educate yourself a bit further because your supposed "factual" statement is not facts; that's more like a twisting of semantics to suit your own point of view by conveniently ignoring surrounding contexts. As @Red Panda pointed out, *there's a huge implied difference in taking steroids in the sense of seeking to gain mass and doing it safely as a part of HRT as prescribed by a doctor. Yes, testosterone is an androgen and is thus considered a steroid, but that doesn't mean that one is taking steroids if you are on TRT, because the purpose, how it affects health etc. is very different.*
> 
> Failure to recognize this difference is just intellectually disingenuous and logically fallacious.


You're basically agreeing with me and then essentially saying "But TRT is different". Make up your mind LOL.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Red Panda said:


> I don't really "date" in that sense either, but it's generally a very norm thing to do, so I put it in that context.


No, I understand, it's no problem. I definitely think it's more difficult for trans people that are into dating than those that aren't in that sense.


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## de.sidera (Feb 4, 2017)

@Entropic it means typing error :V sorry, "antistrUctural". A woman who has had her breasts removed battling cancer is not challenging the concept of female gender, she just wants to conform, to be accepted as a woman, even if not with flying colours. 
A trans man, instead, challenges the foundations of male and female gender. _If T can make you look like an xy chromosome bearer, how do I behave with you? What is appropriate and what is not? Am I gay? How do I interpret your behaviour?_ Many of the psychological, social, cultural rules that are necessary to our life as a community are rooted in a biological reality which is not as predictable as we'd expect it to be. I suppose this is where the uncanny stems from.


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## Handsome Dyke (Oct 4, 2012)

Red Panda said:


> State of mind is still within a spectrum of male to female though, not a third option.


No. People can think of themselves in an infinite number of ways.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

bentHnau said:


> No. People can think of themselves in an infinite number of ways.


Which is what a spectrum is.


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## with water (Aug 13, 2014)

de.sidera said:


> I understand your point and see the importance of sincerity. But I'm afraid it would mean letting the other person's inexperience and prejudice decide for them while making them "jump off the cliff unwittingly" could dissolve their fears.


I hope this is all in jest.


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## Flamme et Citron (Aug 26, 2015)

Categorical no. The world is full of hot-blooded hetero men that have all the right equipment.

There's nothing exciting about a counterfeit, and I'm not touching a vulva or a giant clitoris.


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## de.sidera (Feb 4, 2017)

with water said:


> I hope this is all in jest.


Outrage is not a point.


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## Handsome Dyke (Oct 4, 2012)

Red Panda said:


> Which is what a spectrum is.


A spectrum is a bounded infinity. I'm trying to tell you that people don't necessarily think of themselves in terms of your spectrum *at all*: an unbounded infinity of self-perception. 

It's analogous to the difference between all the decimal numbers between 0 and 1 (infinite yet having an upper and lower limit) and all the decimal numbers (infinite and unbounded). The latter has more options than the former.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

de.sidera said:


> @Entropic it means typing error :V sorry, "antistrUctural". A woman who has had her breasts removed battling cancer is not challenging the concept of female gender, she just wants to conform, to be accepted as a woman, even if not with flying colours.
> A trans man, instead, challenges the foundations of male and female gender. _If T can make you look like an xy chromosome bearer, how do I behave with you? What is appropriate and what is not? Am I gay? How do I interpret your behaviour?_ Many of the psychological, social, cultural rules that are necessary to our life as a community are rooted in a biological reality which is not as predictable as we'd expect it to be. I suppose this is where the uncanny stems from.


No, I understand, but what I am trying to suggest is that people make this to be a bigger issue with trans people than with other people whose bodies are non-conforming, especially in relation to what it needs to be, imo. What if the woman in question is infertile? It's a very common problem, but yet we assume every woman is fertile to carry a child. There are women that are dumped when men realize they can't bear children. And while there are many effeminate trans men out there, there are also a whole bunch of effeminate cis men out there and so on and so forth. 

And then of course, if we move into the intersex area, that also adds a great deal of questions. Some scientists even argue transgender is a type of intersex phenomenon and I can understand that perspective. It becomes even more interesting if an intersex individual is transgender, which also happens. 

In general I think that people just overthink this too much. It's quite simple, the way I see it. Am I attracted to you? Do I like you? I treat you like I treat any other person. Of course, then the junk, I understand that's important to some. At that point it becomes relevant to ask oneself how important junk is and what kind of sex you like and want and how willing you are to compromise on those things.

I saw Transgender Revolution not too long time ago and there was an interview with a transwoman and her wife. She transitioned late and it was quite an emotional portion of the documentary, I think. At some point the wife said, and I paraphrase, "I am not lesbian but I love my wife, and when you really love someone you find a way to make it work". And I think it holds true. She wasn't lesbian, she wasn't turned on by female junk and this trans woman had chosen to undergo bottom surgery, but she still loved this person who was now her wife. She was still straight but she chose to ignore her sexual preference because the love she felt was stronger than that.

So what I am trying to say with all this is that while perhaps most people don't, a great deal of people out there in the world are actually forced to consider their source of attraction when their partners change. Perhaps they are in a car accident and can never walk again, being paralyzed from their hips and downward. How are you going to have sex when they can't even feel anything? What happens if they lose a leg or both arms? Are you still going to feel the same way? What about someone that ends up with a scarred face? 

There are so many people with non-conforming bodies and not all of them are trans. Yes, I understand what you say about how trans questions our rooted beliefs in the physical integrity of the body, but so does a person that was in a terrible fire accident and ends up having their entire skin and extremities disfigured or even burnt off. How do you relate to such a person? How do you love them? How do you feel physical attraction? 

Our fears and abilities to deal with these things ultimately say way more about ourselves than the person being rejected, but it's the person that's rejected that's left hurting and I think that's wherein the unfairness lies. They do not control the shape or their bodies but people do control their untold expectations of how a body should be like and how we treat them. Unconditional love really goes a long way, I think, in overcoming those boundaries, and it goes a lot longer than I think most people are also able to recognize because they do not know how to unconditionally love. That in itself is a fear of being too attached out of fear of rejection, so instead you prematurely reject. And that's perhaps the deepest unfairness of all to the person that ends up being rejected.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Entropic said:


> Then educate yourself a bit further because your supposed "factual" statement is not facts; that's more like a twisting of semantics to suit your own point of view by conveniently ignoring surrounding contexts. As @*Red Panda* pointed out, there's a huge implied difference in taking steroids in the sense of seeking to gain mass and doing it safely as a part of HRT as prescribed by a doctor. Yes, *testosterone is an androgen and is thus considered a steroid, but that doesn't mean that one is taking steroids if you are on TRT,* because the purpose, how it affects health etc. is very different.
> 
> Failure to recognize this difference is just intellectually disingenuous and logically fallacious.


No, it means exactly that. Which is why TRT is outlawed in most sports across the board. If you are on TRT, you are taking steroids. A lot of these guys legitimately have low T levels. That is too bad. They still can't take exogenous testosterone/TRT because they are steroids. They are steroids both chemically and legally.

Let me transplant this logic. Vicodin is an opiate but that doesn't mean one is taking opiates if one is taking vicodin right?


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## Handsome Dyke (Oct 4, 2012)

connotations of "taking steroids" vs. denotation of "taking steroids"


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## AddictiveMuse (Nov 14, 2013)

Sun Bear said:


> Anyway, moving right past _that......._
> 
> 
> View attachment 647218
> ...





Sun Bear said:


> first trans man to ever grace the cover of men's health magazine


These two are so hot.

I'm bi so I guess it doesn't really count but I think I would. The only hesitation I would have would be about baggage and whatnot. I'm cisgender and won't ever be able to understand what they're going through or went through. There's a lot of unknown territory in this scenario for me. Transgender people still do experience backlash, I personally don't know whether I could be stable enough to handle that. 

@Trec93 your avatar never fails to make me flinch. I know they're coming but those fucking spider eyes just get me every time. Pls make it stop. Thnx


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

bentHnau said:


> A spectrum is a bounded infinity. I'm trying to tell you that people don't necessarily think of themselves in terms of your spectrum *at all*: an unbounded infinity of self-perception.
> 
> It's analogous to the difference between all the decimal numbers between 0 and 1 (infinite yet having an upper and lower limit) and all the decimal numbers (infinite and unbounded). The latter has more options than the former.


The spectrum is defined by our biology and therefore has the limitation of our sexual dimorphism. Our state of mind is dependent upon our biochemistry. What you are saying has no grounds to base it upon. Anyone can claim to feel or be anything, it doesn't make it true. I grew up being told by other girls that I'm not girl enough because I didn't exhibit X typical behaviors, all of which were based on social expectations (i.e. playing with Barbies, using make up). That didn't make me a different gender, I just didn't fit the social expectations of mine, and that's totally fine. That's where this whole gender identity issues thing should focus on not some mystical, unfounded "non-binary" spectrum of gender. Telling people that someone can be a third or an infinite number of genders is not just wrong but doesn't touch upon the real issues that could benefit society.


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## de.sidera (Feb 4, 2017)

@Entropic I _am_ transgender. So I perfectly know and even agree with what you mean. I just find no way of dealing with people who reject my point of view by rejecting theirs in return.
(To me) it's not about expecting things to be as I believe it's right or good or even necessary. It's about trying to understand how things are, so that I can live in a world I understand. Even burned people find it hard to be accepted or loved because they look uncanny. It's not right. And I personally don't participate wholeheartedly in this pov. But it is what it is.

(Where is my prize for the most cynical INFP ever, huh?)


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

de.sidera said:


> @Entropic I _am_ transgender. So I perfectly know and even agree with what you mean. I just find no way of dealing with people who reject my point of view by rejecting theirs in return.
> (To me) it's not about expecting things to be as I believe it's right or good or even necessary. It's about trying to understand how things are, so that I can live in a world I understand. Even burned people find it hard to be accepted or loved because they look uncanny. It's not right. And I personally don't participate wholeheartedly in this pov. But it is what it is.
> 
> (Where is my prize for the most cynical INFP ever, huh?)


I am not following what you mean, here?

Also, I am open as a trans man on this forum and have been for a couple of years now, so there's that. No idea how this changes your perception if any. I am also talking as someone that was born disfigured and have a fair share of other medical conditions in my baggage that just makes my body function differently.

It's always been a great source of pain because I've always been the stranger when growing up. I had people stare at me and my parents as a kid, so I am very familiar and aware of that experience. Because I am adopted, also, of course several also questioned the choice of my parents in that regard. Why not choose a healthy child that was not born the way I was and had to go through numerous surgeries in order to function properly? 

So I genuinely did not believe anyone could love me. It was a huge struggle growing up to realize that love is not just attached to how we look or function, even though most people think this way and unfortunately operate this way and judge people this way. 

So what the wife in Transgender Revolution said did really touch me, and I think it overlaps a bit with people that find themselves married to someone that eventually comes out as homosexual. Sometimes those couples split up, sometimes they stay together despite the awareness of having zero physical attraction because the relationship is more important than the sex. 

I find that touching, at least, so utterly selfless. We do have that capacity to love if we want to, because I also do believe that is a choice. We cannot choose our preferences, but we can choose to continue to love.

@FearAndTrembling

Just lol no. TRT as prescribed by a doctor is not the same as doping and they are strongly reconsidering medical boundaries within sports because it's built on a false premise of how a functioning body should be like and what constitutes fairness and unfairness. This becomes the most obvious with the case of Castor Semeya some years back.

Address the main subject maturely or stop posting.


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